808 24 26018 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4d0ab5d50365d55b8ac7f7cae4517e0f.mp4 c7bbeab42830b1b5ab11ca7e7b14e842 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b61c1e4f727018bb80943dd9be584a8b.pdf 53276e1bedc6b4b162a1166fc2cf26bc PDF Text Text Robinson, Michael Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Name of War: Vietnam War Interviewee’s Name: Michael Robinson Length of Interview: (1:55:33) Interviewed by: James Smither Transcribed by: Chelsea Chandler Interviewer: “Okay, Mike, begin with some background on yourself, and to start with, where and when were you born?” I was born in Grand Haven, Michigan on September 17th, 1947 at North Ottawa Community Hospital. Interviewer: “Okay, and was your family living in Grand Haven or somewhere else?” They just moved to Grand Haven. They were—lived in Chicago until just before I moved, and then when they moved, it probably helped things along. And I was born. Interviewer: “All right. Now did you grow up in Grand Haven, or did you move around?” Until I was—about the sixth grade, and then we moved to Saginaw because my father got a better job. Interviewer: “Okay, and what kind of work was your father doing?” He was a salesman for Construction Aggregates, which is a stone and gravel company, and he ended up doing it over on the other side of the state. And I don’t remember the name of that. (1:02) Interviewer: “All right, and then did you finish high school?” Yes, I did. Interviewer: “And what year did you graduate?” ‘66. Interviewer: “Okay, and what did you do after you got out of high school?” Dodged the draft and went to Delta College for a year in Saginaw. Interviewer: “Okay. All right. At this point how much do you know about Vietnam?” �Robinson, Michael What’s sitting in front of you. I was on a boat, and they told me, “Hey. We’re going in the Army.” And I— Interviewer: “Well, no, but the point when you’re—Before—We’re still at the point in your story where you haven’t gone in the military yet, but you said you were dodging the draft and going to Delta College for a year. So, I mean—” Yes, I understand what you’re saying now. I had an older brother, Steve, that was in Vietnam in 1965, and he had gone through ROTC in the—for the Air Force. And he got orders to go over there, so when I was still in high school, he was over there. And he used to let us know what was going on a little bit. And he was so close to the fighting and all that. (2:05) Interviewer: “Okay, so your impression was that would be good to stay out of?” Yeah, it sure was. It was a very good impression to stay the heck—That’s why I tried to go to the—I was not a very good student, so I went to Delta College for a year. And it wasn’t good for me. Interviewer: “Okay, so basically you leave school, and once you leave school, you don’t have a draft deferment.” Correct. Interviewer: “All right, and then did you get a draft notice?” Yes, I did. Interviewer: “Okay, and what did you do once you got that notice?” I thought about it, and I said, “Jeez. Two years in the Army on the ground in Vietnam, or I could be four years Navy on a ship five miles off shore. I think I’m going in the Navy.” And, of course, that’s not what happened. Interviewer: “All right. Do you remember what time of year it was that you went in?” It was after—It was probably mid-summer or late summer or early fall or something like that. Interviewer: “Okay. All right, so it’s sort of after the spring term or whatever at the college, and you’re out, and…” And now they found out about it. They says, “Ah.” Interviewer: “Okay. All right. Now when you went to sign up for the Navy, what kinds— What did the recruiter tell you you could expect, or…?” �Robinson, Michael Yeah, he says, “Make out a list of ten things you want to do in the Navy since you’re going in for four years.” And so—“You have to give at least ten.” So I started listing—And I love photography, so I said, “I want to be a Photographer’s Mate.” And so I listed that up front, and he said, “No, you’ve got to keep going until you get all ten of them filled out.” Well, the last thing I could come up with was a Gunner’s Mate. You know, what he did—Went, “Ah, you’re going to be a Gunner’s Mate.” So that’s how I became into weapons. Interviewer: “All right. Now did you go through a physical, or had you done that already before the draft, or…?” No, I—When I went in the Navy, they sent me to a physical. I did my boot camp in Great Lakes, Illinois. Interviewer: “Okay. Now what did the boot camp consist of?” (4:09) Just normal drill, and first they knock you down to nothing and make you feel like dirt. And then they build you back up to be a military person. You know, that type of thing. Interviewer: “All right. Well, what kinds of things do they do to knock you down?” Made us—An awful lot of marching and physical—Lot of physical stuff and lot of training, schooling, and, of course, drills and that kind of stuff. Interviewer: “Okay. Was there stuff on just how to keep your uniform and your—” Yes, we had to learn—Well, I—Yes, that was solely part of it that I had already learned how to take care of myself and keep, you know, my clothes clean and all that. I had a very good mother, and she taught us how to—You do your own dishes, you do your own clothes, and all that stuff, so that helped me because I wasn’t starting from scratch like a lot of these people were doing. And it was easy for me to take care of myself. Interviewer: “All right. What kind of people were you training alongside? Do you have any sense of what their backgrounds were?” Yeah, there was two different styles. One was a—I want to say he was a New Yorker—city of New Yorker—and he’s a, you know, gang, cool, badass. You know, he knows toughness, and another one—The other one was a guy from Tennessee Hills. Real hillbilly. Literally a hillbilly, and he—He wasn’t going to know how to keep himself clean and stuff like that, and then the city guy—He was very hard on him, and he was going to teach the little Tennessee—Little guy. He’s a tiny guy. (6:02) He’s going to teach him a lesson. He’s going to take him into the—what we call the drying room where you wash your own clothes, and you hang them up and dry them in this drying out room. And he’s going to take him and going to kick his ass and make him clean up because we get demerited more. And he went in there, smacking his hand in his fist. He’s going to kick this little, Tennessee boy’s ass. Well, about less than three or four minutes later, the little, teeny, Tennessee guy came over and was hitting him in his face, and we all kind of �Robinson, Michael watched him walk away. And he—Nothing. Absolutely nothing. About ten minutes later, he, you know—The old, New York, tough, badass guy comes in all bloodied and beat up, and—But— Interviewer: “Well, did the guy from Tennessee learn to clean up?” No, he ended up getting out because they—They put him in a—what they called a mouse house. Was trying to get him to do that. He never learned, and he ended up getting out, you know. Interviewer: “All right. Now—And how long was the boot camp part do you think?” I really don’t know. I want to say at least three months or more. Something like that. Interviewer: “Okay. All right. I guess the Army was eight weeks fairly consistently by then, but the Navy could do things their own way.” Oh, no, maybe it was less because I don’t really remember for sure. Interviewer: “Well, it could have been twelve weeks.” It seemed like forever for me. Interviewer: “Yeah. All right. Now did you understand what they were doing at the time— this idea of breaking you down and building you up—or did you just figure that out later?” Oh, I kind of knew about that because I could say I had an older brother that was in the Air Force, and he went through ROTC in college. And he went through some of this, and then we kind of, you know—We would watch [?] and everything, so I kind of knew what they were doing. And I was always going to be the best I could be, so I didn’t get picked on. The more you—The more you didn’t abide by the rules, the more they made you. And so I kind of just said, “Hey. I think I’ll just do the right thing from the very beginning and kind of stay the hell out of everybody’s way.” (8:12) Interviewer: “Okay. Yeah, that seems to be a good approach. All right, so once you finish that, now what do they do with you?” I went to weapons school. It was a big—Big weapons like five-inch .54s and all that kind of— gyros, how to operate the—Do maintenance on the big ships. When they roll, the guns stay stable, and our job was to fix and repair all that kind of stuff. Interviewer: “Okay, and where were you doing the gunnery school?” In Great Lakes. Interviewer: “Okay, so you’re staying at Great Lakes. Now are you actually going out onto ships now, or is this still on shore?” �Robinson, Michael Just on shore. Yeah, we didn’t go on any ships until after we’re all done. Interviewer: “All right. Now are you really firing any of the guns, or were you just working with the gyros and the stabilization?” Yeah, that kind of stuff. We didn’t do any firing while we’re on there. They just teach us how to fix things. Interviewer: “Okay. Now while you’re there, do you get to go off the base at all?” Yes, we did. We did a little bit of partying. Yeah, and we tried to, you know, do the best we could to stay in one piece. Terrorizing the world. Interviewer: “Okay. All right. Well, did you go into Chicago or just stay at near the base?” I had some relatives that lived in Chicago, so on weekends I got to go to their house. And so that was kind of a really big thing to have home cooking and sleep in a real bed and that kind of stuff. But most of it was on base, but every once in a while I’d get a weekend where I got to—And I’d even come home some weekends. I was still doing—Back to—I was back to Saginaw. Interviewer: “Okay, and now do you have a recollection of when it was that you finished the gunnery school? Was it still ‘67 at this point? Before Christmas, or…?” I really don’t know. No, I do not know exactly when it happened, but— Interviewer: “Do you remember where you spent Christmas in ‘67?” (10:13) I may have been able to go home. Interviewer: “It’s possible. Okay. All right, so after gunnery school, what’s the next step for you?” Well, they sent us out into the fleet, and I was on a ship that wasn’t even—It was in dry dock, and so I didn’t really get out in the sea when I was stationed to it. And then they quickly sent me on a different ship. It was an ocean-going minesweeper, and I was told once you get on those, you don’t get to get off. And I’m thinking, “Damn. That’s great because I don’t want to go to Vietnam.” Because, like I say, it was going on pretty good then, and so when I got orders for there, I was very, very happy. Interviewer: “All right. Where was that ship based?” I think it was Charleston, South Carolina. I’m not sure, but I think so. Interviewer: “Okay, and did you actually get to serve on that ship for a while?” �Robinson, Michael Yes, yes, and I was very happy. And I ended up being the ship’s diver because they pull probably almost a quarter mile to a—Maybe it is a mile. I don’t know. A very long line of cable. What they do is they—The minesweeper is made out of wood, so they send down the signals and find the mines. And then the cable comes along, and they’ve got cutters on them. They cut them loose, and then they pop up to the surface. We had twenty millimeter cannons on there and one single, and when they expose these tops—pop up to the surface—we would shoot them and blow them up. But they—This was all mock back then, and they would float a fifty-five gallon drum half full of diesel fuel. And you have to try and hit this with this cannon, which was almost impossible, but we… Interviewer: “So what does the diver do?” (12:04) Well, this is why—how I became—Divers are new commanding officer on board. Stopped. Well, the cable doesn’t. It’s still coming forward, and it wrapped around our screws. So we were out there for about three days. Dead water. We couldn’t even go—Getting them into the wake. We had—We got sideways, and we—Because we couldn’t turn on the screws or anything, so we had to have divers come out and cut the cables off the screws so we could get back in. And they says, “Oh, we’ve got to have somebody on board.” And I was a very good swimmer from Grand Haven. “Yeah, I’ll be—” You know. That was another—Don’t volunteer, okay? So that’s—I went to school for that and did some training basically. We never ran into that problem again, so I didn’t really—I went to a lot of training in the rivers. Interviewer: “And was this still near Charleston where you were doing that?” Yeah, I think so. Yeah, because we were in the river so filthy, dirty you couldn’t see your hand in front of your face, and so I was—Well, we went down—We were supposed to go down and feel around the screws and see if there was anything around them. Well, it was kind of a weird feeling being pitch-black. And so I did it, but thank god we never came across that. Interviewer: “At least if you were out in open ocean, you might be able to see through water.” I was hoping that. Yeah. Interviewer: “All right. About how long did you wind up staying on the minesweeper?” Supposed to have been forever, and it wasn’t. But I think it was more like—I want to say maybe six months or so. I don’t really know, but I know my officer coming out there so happy. He said, “You’ve got new orders for Vietnam.” And I said, “Kiss my ass.” Interviewer: “All right, so I think we’re getting into 1968 now at this point if you’re there that amount of time.” (14:01) Yeah, latter part of—Yeah, yeah, ‘68. Early part of ‘68. �Robinson, Michael Interviewer: “Okay, because you get to Vietnam at the end of ‘68, so okay. Now a lot of stuff was going on in ‘68. I mean, you had—I mean, the Tet Offensive went on early in the year, and then Johnson decides not to run. And then Martin Luther King gets assassinated, and eventually Bobby Kennedy gets assassinated. Did any of that stuff get noticed where you were?” I can’t remember right now, but I’m sure it did have some effect on our orders and stuff. But I can’t really remember a whole lot. Interviewer: “Okay. Yeah, but it’s just not something that stands out in your memory because you’re focusing on what you’re doing on the ship at that point.” Yeah, well, I was on the minesweeper. Something must have happened to ramp up the war. We didn’t know about this. I was a very low rank person that—I think things had gotten a little more heated, so when they had to ramp up more— Interviewer: “Okay. Well, I mean, I think some of it kind of is indicated by the nature of your story and what comes next. So you get orders. You’re going to go to Vietnam, but you don’t go straight to Vietnam.” No. Interviewer: “Where do you go next?” Coronado, California is where the West Coast Swift Boats was doing all their training. Well, we went there. There was ten crews of five apiece or six apiece—six people on each boat—and they’ve got ten of us groups like that. And then we all trained together, and we learned—The boat—Because it’s so small—Only fifty foot long. And you can go like this, and two guys can touch at the sides. It’s pretty narrow. That we had to learn everybody else’s job. (16:02) That’s why it took us so long because you had to learn the radars, the radios, the engines, the weapons system, helmsman, how to take care of stuff. And that’s why it took so long. Interviewer: “Okay, so how many months was that?” I want to say it was—Months. I want to say—Seems like it was like three months to me. I don’t remember. Interviewer: “Yeah, that’s quite likely. I mean, the right chronology. ” Yeah, because it was a long time, and then I was so happy. Because we had to also go through survival training where we had to learn how to survive if we got separated from the boat. Interviewer: “Okay, and what did that consist of?” That was pretty hell. We went up to would be [?] up in state of Washington, and the first part of the week—you’re there for a whole week—they don’t feed you. You only—Whatever you’ve �Robinson, Michael got to eat is what you forage, and they teach you how to dig—In low tide how to dig snails or clams or whatever the hell you dig, and I didn’t—And you always had to be doing—Like in a scenario where you’re—You’ve got to be careful, so you only got to go out there at night in low tide. And we would dig—If we got our bucket full—And it was probably about eight inches tall and about six inches in diameter. If we got that full for our group, which is like twelve, fourteen of us, then we could keep digging because they gave us a time period. And you can eat whatever you can get from then on, and, of course, I don’t like seafood, so—But I tried it because you get pretty hungry, and I couldn’t do it. You know, I—And they—That’s what they did, and then, after a while, they’d teach you how to do snares. How to catch rabbits and stuff like that, and so basically—And then, of course, they did how to—If you’re walking down a trail, how to get— You know, if you come up across a VC, how to shoot because you—Right there, all of a sudden, this big thing pops up. It’s supposed to be a VC jumped up in front of you, and you’re supposed to know what to do. (18:14) And you shoot the first one low, so you can see where it hit. And then you bring it up to the height of the target. So that you do boom, boom! Two quick shots, and you only get two shots. So you’ve got to hit it supposedly, and we did that. That was quite an experience, and then after that they—We learned how to do all that, and then they decided that, “Okay. You’ve got to go through a capture stage.” And they gave us a compass and a map and says, “You’ve got to go to Point A to Point B, and you’ve got so much time to do that. And there’s so many of you.” I don’t know how many it was—like maybe four or something like that—and you’re supposed to make that point. If you make it to that point and don’t get captured, then you went to the next point. And you keep—One thing, learn how to use a compass obviously, and that we did very well. In fact, I’m kind of a country boy living up in Grand Haven and stuff, and we lived on an old farm. And so we—I knew how to play in the woods, so to speak, and so I could spot movement. So I knew when to get the hell down and stop and freeze and all that, and so we made it all the way through. And most people didn’t. Most groups didn’t, and after you get all done, we say, “Well, we made it.” And they say, “Yeah. Come on. You’re camping.” They put us in concentration camps anyways just to give us—For the experience of being in a—In that scenario of being captured, and then they start doing a lot of things to you, trying to break you mentally. And, of course, they beat you up and propaganda, and one of the things that I—I have two things I have problems with: small spaces and drowning. (20:06) And that’s—Of course, that’s the thing they work on, of course. “Oh, you’re in the Navy. In Vietnam, there’s water, so…” And they would take you and put you in this box about maybe this wide and just wide enough for your shoulders but just long enough to where you had to—You know, on your hands and knees type thing, and then they’d push the top down until you’re down and right against your—Your face against the floor almost, and then they lock it. And they leave you there, and it really works on your mind. And I played golf in my head to keep me busy, and when I got out, I was a little bit—Probably a little bit screwed up, but I didn’t—They, of course—They’d say, “Who’s your commanding officer?” And they’d keep slapping you around a lot and trying to get you to give your—The name of your commanding officer, and I was so freaking scared I couldn’t remember his name anyway. And then they kept—They did that for a while and then put us in classes again—the propaganda classes—and if you didn’t pay attention, they grabbed a—Of course, I’m trying to always resist type of thing, and I was not being cooperative. He grabbed me by my hair and pulled me out of the room and put a gun to my head and pulled the trigger a couple of times. And I knew that they—God, they’re not going to kill us, so I kind of half-ass believed that they weren’t going to kill me. But you kind of get weird, and then they—That didn’t do it for them, so they put me in a—You know what a fifty-five gallon �Robinson, Michael drum is. You know how tall they are. (22:09) What they did is they welded them—A whole bunch of—Like four of them together so that you’ve got a big, long tube you’re in, and they set the end of the tube—One on the ground and one on a board, and then they shove you down there headfirst. And it’s full of water, and it’s just going over the edge. That way it’s staying flat or almost flat, and you’re standing up. And you can’t get up and high enough to get out of the water, and they wait until you—your last burst of air. And they bring you back down, haul you out, and, of course, you— Interviewer: “Okay. Now it seems like an awful lot of production for somebody who’s going to be an enlisted man on a Swift Boat in terms of—Why are they doing all of this stuff to you?” Because we’re going to be in the area where we’re going to get—Maybe get captured. Interviewer: “That’s possible.” Yeah, very possible. Yeah, and so that was one of their reasons for this was to see what we could take, and I think that was a separation point. Because when we got back from there, they said, “Well, a lot of people got—didn’t—I mean, we’ve got too many crews over there, so we’re going to send you all back to the fleet.” And I think that was when they were—The ones that didn’t make—Because they made us go into a concentration camp where they made you pick up boulders and move them to this pile, and then, “No. Move them back over here.” You know, and they broke you. They did everything they could to break you. They got a lot of people that did break, and they were up there on the walls acting like a chicken and everything. I mean, there were some people that really broke bad, and it was—I think that’s what they were doing. They’re weeding out the ones that couldn’t make it, and so when we got back down to…(24:06) Interviewer: “Coronado?” Yeah, Coronado. Thank you. Going crazy. And that’s when they told us we’re going to go back to the fleet, and I was so happy. And a lot of them did, and there was one more group left that was my group. Five or six guys. And I says, “Hey. Where’s our orders? You gave everybody else orders. Where the hell’s ours?” And he looked down in his office—I was about to go to the office to get my new orders, and he pulled out my papers and handed them to me. It’s the same ones, and he said, “You’ve got a week. Get your—Get everything in order.” And so I called my mom, and I says, “Hey. I’m going after all.” You know, and, boy, she was so goddamn mad at the Navy that—But then went out and got shit-faced drunk, and I was just not—Just about ready to turn twenty-one, so that was in September, and we went off base and got drunker than a skunk. And I ended up in jail somewhere. Interviewer: “All right. Now this is—Coronado’s by San Diego, right?” Yes. Interviewer: “Yeah. Okay, and in general how do the locals seem to view the sailors?” �Robinson, Michael Not very well, not very well. They didn’t like them, and probably—Because we were probably kind of rowdy, and I don’t blame them because we were stupid. But anyways, I got thrown in jail for I don’t know exactly what, but I know we were drinking because I—Yeah, and they couldn’t get out of me who I got my alcohol from, and I kept saying, “Just a minute.” And I’d throw up, and then they did it. Asked me again. I says, “Just a minute.” And they were probably thinking, “Okay. He ain’t going to talk,” and so they—That’s when they kept me overnight and sent me back the next day, and... Interviewer: “All right. So now how do they get you to Vietnam?” (26:01) They flew us after they gave us ten billion shots. You know, they filled our arms full of shots, so they walk you down a line with these guns that shoot into you. They’re not needles. They actually shoot a stream of medicine into you, and after I don’t know how many shots, then they put us on an airplane. And we got to California—Not California. To Hawaii, and they knocked us off the planes to get more shots. And that’s all I thought of Hawaii was get off the airport, go through a line, and get back on, and they shipped us off to Vietnam. Interviewer: “Okay, and where did you land in Vietnam?” I think Cam Ranh Bay. Interviewer: “Okay. All right. What was your first impression of Vietnam when you got there?” That was a stable part of the country with that being the Air Force base there and all that, so I’m just kind of like, “Wow.” You know. Not until the day—Flew us down to Cat Lo Coastal Division 13, and then it was getting a little tighter. And, like I say, I came on base, and I had my duffel bag and all this stuff. I handed it, and he’s, “Oh, come on, come on, come on.” They took me down to the pier, and that boat—The picture of the boat with a big rock in it. He says, “That’s your boat.” And, “Holy shit.” And, of course, I didn’t have to go on that one because it was pretty bad up. Interviewer: “So the boat that you were supposed to go on had just been shot up.” Yeah, he got knocked out the night before. Interviewer: “All right. Now are you joining an existing crew as the new guy, or what’s happening?” Yes, so one person—You know, we went over there as a crew, but they only allow one new guy on a boat at a time because they don’t know how you’re going to react to—Especially as the gunner’s mate, I couldn’t be on the main guns because they didn’t know if I would freeze on them, and so—And that was every—Everybody did the same thing. They did it to all of us. We all went on a different boat, and… �Robinson, Michael Interviewer: “All right. Just describe a little bit what a Swift Boat is like. You said it’s fifty feet long, it’s pretty narrow at the beam, and what’s it for?” (28:14) It’s a river patrol boat. Further up north as you go—Because I was always down in the delta area, but up north—the DMZ—they actually patrolled the ocean a little bit, too. And that’s when the North Vietnamese didn’t have aircraft, and they could come over the ocean and knock out them. So they were in pretty bad shape, too, but we just ran the rivers. We didn’t go out in the ocean. The only time we ever went out on the ocean is when we did a one-day patrol, and I was supposed to guard the bases. It was a day off basically. You just tuck around the base, and we would go out to the ocean. And right there—That was, you know, in country in our place it was a pretty safe patrol to have. I can’t remember. I think it was Vũng Tàu. Interviewer: “Vũng Tàu, and, well, that would fit the description. Yeah.” Yeah, I think it was Vũng Tàu, and so we went out—You know, we went out on the beaches partying all the time, so it wasn’t really a patrol, even though we had to go back in behind them. But, I mean, that was all friendly. Interviewer: “Okay, but did you go into the ocean to get from the estuary or one river to another? Kind of in and out of the rivers and the delta?” Yes, every one of them. We would leave the Saigon Basin or whatever it was, and we would travel along the ocean just to get to our patrol river. Interviewer: “Right. Okay, and as a gunner’s mate, what’s your job?” I was fore gunner in the main defense and destruction. Both. We—I sat up high—real high—so I could really see what was going on, and I was the main defense and the main destruction. (30:06) Interviewer: “Okay, and what kind of weapon did you have?” I had—Beginning I just had two twelve—No two twelve. Two .50 caliber machine guns, and as I realized when we would do search and rescue missions—not rescue, but search—that my .50s could not—Were useless because I couldn’t get the guns down too far, so I ended up carrying an M16 behind me and M79 grenade launcher. And so when we pulled up alongside a sampan, I would take my M16 down, and they would—A lot of times they would pull me out of there completely and go down and do the search because I was useless up there with the big, big guns anyway. So they said, “Well, you do the search, and thanks a lot, buddy.” And so I did a lot of the climbing through the sampans and checking for stuff. Interviewer: “All right. What was your main base?” Cat Lo. Interviewer: “All right, and describe what that facility looked like.” �Robinson, Michael The big flotation of piers, and they had barracks there, commissaries, hospital type places, and a big, big warehouse for food because we would have to—When you go on patrol, if you went on a—like a—two and three-day patrols, we would get allotment to have food because we cooked our own foods on board while we were out. And so we had places like that and mess halls and places to drink. Interviewer: “Okay, and how much time would you actually spend at the base?” We would go on a one-day patrol. Then they have a day off. Then we’d go on a two-day patrol and have a day off. Then a three-day patrol and have a day off, and so… Interviewer: “All right, and what do you do during the day off?” A little bit of drinking. Sleeping. Oh, lord, a little bit of drinking. Quite a bit of drinking, sleeping, and have our own bed and all that kind of stuff, so it was kind of nice. You had your own locker, and you had, you know, barracks. It was kind of nice. It was very well—nice—I mean, showers, and that was nice because we didn’t use the showers on more of the boats. We had to just jump in the river, and so…(32:20) Interviewer: “All right. Let’s see. Now did you have to stay on the base?” No, it’s supposedly all friendly around the base, so a lot of people went out. And I know I—One of my favorite foods was—They made french fries using pure butter, and that tasted so good. And so—Of course, it’s like five bucks for a little packet of french fries, but they’d have little— Vietnamese would have a bunch of little stores and stuff to buy and get in trouble in. You know, women and things to buy and places to eat and—But at night we were all supposed to be back inside. Interviewer: “And were there ever problems with Viet Cong in the village?” Yeah, we—Normally, not individually, but one time we were all on base and I was sleeping on my rack, which the house—Or what do you call that? Barracks. Our barracks was long, and mine happened to be way up front by the showers—my bunk—and we heard a mortar leave a—Mortar round. You hear that boop that goes off, and, “Boom!” It hit pretty damn close. I said, “Jesus Christ, you idiots. You’re almost hitting us.” Well, it wasn’t us shooting. It was them shooting at us, and they hit our barrack for that—Our back end, and all the people back there were on patrols. (34:03) So nobody got hurt. The building got damaged, but nobody got hit. And the officer in charge of our base security—Yeah, I seen him in the bunkers and stuff like that and the sandbag area, and he says they— “We know where they’re coming from, and they’re right there. Can we shoot them?” And he says, “Oh, that’s all friendly over there.” And, “No. No, it’s not.” You know. “It’s not all friendly over there.” And we never—They never shot back. They weren’t allowed to, and we went out on—Got on the boats. The duty boat. We’d get on this boat and go behind that area, so—To try and cut them off, and we never did find the people that did it. And— But they never did that again, so, you know… �Robinson, Michael Interviewer: “Okay. Did they just fire a couple of rounds and leave, or…?” About six. Yeah, six mortars and left, I guess. I mean, because, I mean, we never found anything. Interviewer: “All right, but there weren’t cases of people going into the village and having trouble with the VC or things like that?” No, no, it—We—Supposedly all friendlies, but yeah. Interviewer: “Okay. All right. Now do you remember your first mission on a Swift Boat?” Yes, it was the very first Sea Lord Raid. Yeah, I was still fresh in country, and then they—We went up one of these rivers, and then we went off on this canal. And we went in. It’s pitch-black as night, and we chugged up there real slow. We have a radar that we can see where their nets were spaced across the river, so we could maneuver around them. And so—And I can’t see nothing because it’s pitch-black, but the guy in the helm could. And we went all the way up to where—I was going to show you that. Where the VC supposedly had some of our guys captured, and—So we’re supposed to go up, and there’s a T in the canal. (36:05) And we were supposed to go up there and go to that T, and then if nothing happened, we were supposed to turn around and come back out there. But we would get up there and nothing, of course, and the minute we started to turn around they hit us from everywhere. And I was on the—Because I was not out on the .50s, they put me on the bow with an M60 machine gun, and there’s so much light from them because you couldn’t see because there is no street lights or anything like that. So we—The only—Anything you could see was basically from the flash of the guns, and you’re shot at. Flashes of guns, and there was some big stuff that came in, but it went over our heads. And I just shot at everything I—It was—Whatever. And we turned around, and we ran our asses back out of there, I think. And I sat back, thinking, “Oh my god, we made it. Nobody got hit.” And officer says, “Reload. We’re going back in.” I said, “You’re out of your freaking mind.” You know, and an M60 machine gun—You take the handle, and you flip it this way. You can dump the barrel right off, block a new one on, and a nice, new barrel, and that’s—So that’s what I did. I put a new barrel on and reloaded, and we turned around and went back in at full water because they— When you’re out in the ocean—You know, if you get out to Lake Michigan, you can be twenty miles inland and still hear the power boats going, so they didn’t know exactly where we were. But they heard us, but they didn’t know where we were. They didn’t realize we were coming straight at them with exhaust going behind us, and they didn’t hear us coming. So they were out on their—Had campfires going and cooking fires going. They’re outside the bunkers, and they’re—Everybody’s sitting around, and we came in there and started just blasting away. (38:02) We got up to that T again, and we slammed on the brakes. Basically stopped, and, well, here they all was. About twenty feet in front of me was a VC in a sampan. Caught him dead right in the middle of the river, and, you know, it’s like, you know, “What am I going to—” Well, I’m—I leveled my, you know, M60 at him, and I killed him. And we—I don’t know what else we did. I mean, I know we—I did a lot more shooting because we got—We’re still getting shot at from all over, and I know a lot of the times—I don’t know if you see this in some of the movies of Afghanistan where they’re shooting like this, you know, and not aiming. They’re just—And I’m pretty sure there’s a lot of that because we had an awful lot of firepower, so they didn’t want to stand up and be brave because we could—Thing is, we could rip bunkers apart, �Robinson, Michael buildings apart, knock trees down with my—With the .50s, not with my M60, but—So they didn’t—They weren’t too accurate in their shooting, but they were shooting with—You could see the muzzle flashes, and you could hear some of the bullets go whizzing by. But I didn’t—We would just turn around and shot our way out and, “Ah, man. We made it. Second time.” You know, and so it was— Interviewer: “Now was your boat by itself on this mission?” No, we never go on raids—Sea Lord Raids—It’s at least two to three or four sometimes, and I don’t remember how—In our patrol areas themselves, we always have two, and then if we go on the raids, it’s probably three. Interviewer: “Okay. Now you’re using the term ‘Sea Lord’. What does that refer to?” That’s the type of raid that they gave a name to, and it was in the—Out—Go out, and we were going to go do some damage. We know where the VC are. We’re going to go in there and rip the place apart. Interviewer: “Okay. Now as far as you know, did you always encounter Viet Cong as opposed to North Vietnamese troops?” (40:03) No. Never. I have no idea. I just saw muzzle flashes, and that one poor guy in the sampan—I don’t think he was a North Vietnamese regular. I think he was just a regular guy. Was told to— “You shoot at the Americans, or you die. Or your daughter dies.” So... Interviewer: “Okay. Now what proportion of your missions were conducted at night?” I want to say that the heavy-duty ones—the Sea Lord Raids—were about fifty percent because a couple of times—There was a lot of times we did day raids, too. Interviewer: “All right. Now, I guess, you’ve got—You have a—You’ve written a memoir, which we can include actually in the file we’ve made for your interview here, and you talk about a variety of incidents. And another one—a different kind of incident—We talked about—You talked a little bit about going out in the ocean, and if you’re going out in the ocean in a small boat like this, could that be dangerous or at least unpleasant?” Not when you’re out there. Is this when you try to come into—during a monsoon season, coming into that—In the Saigon Basin? Because the waves start coming up the land, and then it gets all huge. They’re bigger than us, and we’re going in—We would back in because the waves were pushing us in, and so you get up to the top of the wave. And you had to power up it, so you didn’t get pushed all the way down to the ground in— back in the boat and get just buried into the ground. So we’d power up it, and as it went by us, we come this way. And then you would try to back up to go up the thing, so you don’t want to hit so hard at the—on the front of the wave. So we had to keep maneuvering forward and backwards and get—We kind of—You know, we had to—Of course, we could thank god we can lock it all up and close it all off, but— �Robinson, Michael So you wouldn’t get buried nose first or ass first into the ground, and we had some people that did. And it’s—That was very dangerous. (42:16) Interviewer: “And when you’re bringing the—Now is the base itself—Does it have a breakwater or something to protect you against the waves?” Yeah, you go around the—Where are base was—Because going up the river basin—That was one thing, but we—Our base is over to the side, and so there was no waves there at all. It’s just a river coming down. Interviewer: “Okay, but you had to get through the area that had the waves first.” Yeah, we had to get through that, and then when we got through that, we were home free basically. Interviewer: “All right. Now what different kinds of missions did you have over the course of your time there?” We had gun support missions, we had troop insertions, and Sea Lord Raids. Types—Things like that. The—We would—Troop insertions we would back them up. When we’d get like—They’d get them like six or eight big, huge sampans or whatever. You called the troops on us, and then load us with a bunch of troops. And we’d go in as shallow as we can, and they—Those boats would go on shallow water, so they would go in. And we would stay out there with our support. My 81 and my .50s and— Interviewer: “Okay. The 81. Explain what that is.” That’s the 81 mm mortar—single-shot—that—You can do couple things with that. One: You could drop the mortar down just like you see on the TV when they drop the mortar, and it goes, “Boop.” Then we also had a tracker system on ours, so if we wanted to kind of lower the angle to where we want to shoot it at something with a different type of rounds, that we could stand it up straight, cock the firing pin back, then drop it down in there. And it would seat, but it wouldn’t go off. So then we could aim it like a great, big shotgun, and we could do…(44:09) Interviewer: “Okay, so you could use direct fire with a mortar—” Oh, yeah. Oh my god, it was a—Definitely a—We only had to use that twice. I only remember using it twice, and it was so devastating that—We were in a bad firefight, and this one bank was just tearing us apart. And he only had an M—.50—One single .50 on his—Top of his mortar, but he had that mortar, too. 81. And I cannot shoot straight behind me, and we were getting hit pretty good. And he couldn’t—He wasn’t—His .50 calibers couldn’t hit everything all at once, so he just leveled that 81 and let that thing go. And the whole bank went, “Whoosh,” and there’s nothing. There was not a single sound after that. Interviewer: “Okay. This was an anti-personnel round or something?” �Robinson, Michael Yeah, it has a—Thousands of tiny, little darts in them. I have them in my hat there, and it shows you what they are. They’re little, black darts that—They’re packed in there, and it’s a 81 mm long round. And probably about that long since there’s thousands of rounds in there, and, of course, as soon as it leaves the mortar barrel, it spreads out like this. And— Interviewer: “Okay. Now is this called a flechette round or a beehive—” Yes, a flechette, I think. It might be called beehive round, too. I think the— Interviewer: “Yeah, but that same idea. A whole bunch of little flying things.” Yeah, it— Interviewer: “So—But a giant shotgun effect.” Yeah, basically. Interviewer: “Okay. All right. Now the troops that you were bringing in. Do you have—Did you form much of an impression of them or get to know any of them, or would you just see them once and that was it?” I didn’t get—The South Vietnamese I did not get a good impression with because they didn’t have the—They were not there for—They thought that they were fighting our war. (46:06) They really believed that, and, I mean, we were starting to turn our boats over to the South Vietnamese. We were going to—They knew we were going to go—The people that were supposed to go on our boats with us and be training with us. When they found out where we were going, they wouldn’t show up, and so we knew—“Oh, this is going to be something because they won’t even show up.” So it usually was a little bit more of a gunfight than a—That they—They knew. It’s probably their brothers or something, I’m thinking. I don’t know. Interviewer: “Okay, so you take South Vietnamese troops in.” Yeah. Interviewer: “Would you take American troops in as well?” We—Couple of times we took in some of our Marines and stuff like that. I want to say the— Interviewer: “The Navy Seals?” Seals. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah, Navy Seals. We were going to go up this one canal that went back to—We know it was a very strong—Big stronghold of the VC, and we were supposed to go up there and tear them a new one. Whatever. And we got part way up there, and we knew this was there. That they had a—They put a barricade underwater about a foot and a half below the waterline, so we take—At slow speed, we take three feet of water. I mean, we have all our stuff—props and everything—hanging underneath, so we couldn’t go up there. And we had like �Robinson, Michael eight tubes almost the length of our boat of C4, and they packed it around that huge, monstrous barricade they had. And then we back off. I don’t know how far. We have a very, very long way, and they detonate it. And the water and everything flew about thirty, forty feet in the air. It was unbelievable, and after they cleared our way, we went in and did our thing. (48:01) And we also had a—We know where the VC were, and we know where the campsites were. And they’re way inland, and we sent some Marines—or Marines or Seals or whatever—inland to capture, I guess, some general. And so we ended up doing a—Running our bow up on the beach real tight, so we were really stable. Got these quick—Read coordinates to where we know we were going to be, and they knew where they were going to be. And we set up our mortars. You have to—It changed the distance that the mortar flies. You have a little—powder bags on the side of them that when you drop them down the mortar, they’d get so much push, and, of course, then the angle and all that stuff they figure out. And—So we were ready to support them, and they were going to go on and do this. Get this army’s general or whatever. And we were waiting I don’t know how many—it seems like forever—before they got on the radio and says, “We got him. We’re on our way out.” And you could hear that they were running, and they were on the radio. And so it’s, you know. Okay. And a little bit—Not too long later, he says, “We need support. Drop some rounds in on our positions right here.” And they told us where it was, and, of course, they were on the run. So once we dropped the rounds, they’re away, and they did that. And we could hear the gunfire. You know, they’re in a firefight, and you could be—Kept telling us that. They did that a couple of times, and then finally he says—He came on the radio very, very excited, and they said that—“We’re pinned down. They got us surrounded. Drop some mortars right on top of us.” “Right on top of you?” So we did, and nothing. (50:07) “Jesus Christ, we just killed them?” And it was like in between the other transmissions there were only like five minutes or so, and this was ten or fifteen minutes. And nothing, so we thought we killed them. And he came back on the radio. “Oh, yeah. We got them. We’re coming on out.” And, I mean, as calm as can be, and they came out. And we were saying, “Jesus Christ.” You know, and you’re smiling and laughing, and one of the guys reaches into his pockets. And he says, “Here,” and dropped it in one of our guys’s hands. It was part of our mortar. “Thanks,” he said. Interviewer: “Did they come out carrying—with a Vietnamese prisoner?” Yeah, I think so. I don’t remember. I just remember them coming up. They’re as happy as hell, and I’m assuming they had because they said, I mean, the whole time—They said they had him, they had him, you know, and they’re coming out with him. And then that last bit when they finally came out and said thanks. That’s all they said, you know, and it’s kind of bizarre. Interviewer: “All right. Now when you’re going up these—You get into the canals and the very narrow waterways. How hard was it to maneuver? What kinds of things did you have to do in there?” Yeah, they were always—When we got into the canals, they—We couldn’t turn around. We had to—If we were going to turn around, we had to ram the bow up on the beach and back off, ram the bow up on the beach and back off, ram the bow up on the beach—Did that until we got turned around because you—It was too—Obviously, the rivers are too narrow to even— Interviewer: “Okay. Would you do that under fire?” �Robinson, Michael Yes. The last one I was on we went up—It was supposed to be—It was going to be four of us, and we’re going to run up this one canal that we knew would belong to the VC. (52:12) And we were supposed to come in with four boats in a row—come in like a lickety-split—and the canal went in at an angle and then did a hard right about—I don’t know. Not very far in but less than a quarter of a mile. And go up there, and it was very, very narrow. And as we were going to go up there, the command boat was the last boat in line, and he was—He wanted to be the lead boat, and we were lead boat. So we had to stop. You take four great, big boats with two twelvecylinder diesel engines apiece and slam on the brakes and throttle back, and the noise it makes is unbelievable. And so we all stopped. The other three boats had to stop, and he went around us. And, of course, then we had to get back going again, and—Because I couldn’t—Canal went up and did a hard right. I could see in front of me, but I couldn’t shoot because of the boats. And I was watching the front boat, and it got to that corner. And the front boat just went, “Bam,” and laid right over on its side. I mean, hit it with something huge, and it laid right on its side. It popped back up and went around the corner, and I said, “Holy shit.” I couldn’t shoot. I could not shoot, I could not shoot, I could not shoot. And then the second one went around, and it’s getting all this smoke. And the fire is so much that I couldn’t see anything, and then the next boat. And when we got there, I just opened up. Didn’t even know where the hell I was shooting because it’s so smoky, and, all of a sudden, our boat goes, “Boom.” We got hit in the—in our port engine. It knocked us down out of the water, and, you know, you’re up at full board. You’re up on the plane, but it knocked us right down to where we just stalled. (54:06) And we went over on our side, and we’re shooting. They knocked out our engine, and so we’re trying to get it started. And we’re screaming on the radio, “Come back for us! We’re down! Come back for us! We’re down!” Well, at the same time, the lead boat was saying, “Turn around and get the hell out of here any way you can. I mean, we’re sinking.” And we thought they were coming back for us, and so we were kind of shooting all the time. And he’s cranking the engine, trying to get it started. Well, it started. Somehow it started. It had a bullet hole that big right through the goddamn thing, and it still started. So we said, “Hey. We’ll take the point,” because we thought we saw them coming back. So, “We got it. We’re okay.” And we didn’t get the transmission that says, “Get out of here any way you can,” so they left. So we went up there all by ourselves, and—“Jesus Christ. An awful lot of fire.” We didn’t know that until we got to a little straightaway and looked back. There’s nobody there. We’re all by ourselves, so I kind of reached down and grabbed the hull and what I only was saying and screaming—I says,“Get the—out of here because we—We’re all alone.” And so he just rammed the hell into it and went, “Bam,” right up on the beach. Then we had to do this to turn around because it was so narrow. Well, I’m—While he’s doing that, I look down, and I’ve got five rounds hanging from my guns. That’s all I had. I only had five rounds, and that’s five out of a thousand or so. So I had another belt down in the deck, but the way a clip loads, you know, you’ve got to have a male and a female type fitting. Then you put a bullet through there, and that’s what locks them together. Before I could hook into the newest set of belts, I had to get everything up, and I’m shaking so hard. And you hear all this gunfire, and, you know, it’s just—You know, I—You just hear it. I mean, I just kept hauling them up, and I’m shaking so hard. And I can’t lay them straight enough. (56:09) If you’re trying to lay them down—And I was trying to lay them down in there. I finally get it to— The blast went up there. Then I can hook into it. Then I had to do the other side, and all this time we’re doing this, trying to turn around. And about the time we got turned around, I got them both loaded. I got in those last five rounds. I look down, and there’s a bunker right there. I never saw �Robinson, Michael it going in, and, of course, I filled the slot. And I—As we went by—And I swung around, and, “Jesus Christ, there’s another one.” And that’s the way it was all the way out, and I shot two—I didn’t—You’re supposed to shoot your short rounds, so you don’t cook your barrels and get them all—And I didn’t. I was shooting at anything, and pretty soon near the end—Of the end of the—Where we got back—Going to go get back out—My rounds were coming out, and my gun’s going about ten, fifteen feet and hitting the water. And the cherry—The redness of the barrels were so cherry-red and totally worn out that I was just making noise, but I don’t know. I still—If you hear a .50 caliber machine gun coming at your direction, you—They probably kept their heads down a little bit, and we got back out. And we got around that corner, and our engine died. And all the shooting stopped, too, so I put my guns up like this. And the barrels were so hot they’re still going off. The gun’s still going, “Bam, bam. Bam, bam, bam,” because as soon as the round chambered, it cooked. We called it cooked off, and it kept going off. And I’m laying back. I say, “Holy—We made it.” And I look down. There’s holes in my gun tub. Where the fuck was I? Excuse me. And, you know, where could I have been? I must have been down getting ammo when they went through, and we got out. And then—Oh, we had—I forgot to say that we had a big TV crew from like NBC or ABC or CNN or whatever that came onboard, and they were going to film this thing. And we knew it was going to be bad because they were going to film it, and he got sick before we even left the dock. (58:24) And he was laying on the port engine cover, and because we got hit in that engine, we thought he got killed because he was just laying there. And then we had a choice to kick him off or throw him onto the starboard engine cover, and we ended up—thank god—We threw him on the starboard engine cover because he was still alive, and he said, “Is everybody all right?” And— Interviewer: “Okay. Now was he—Did he have like a TV camera or just a—” Yeah. Great, big— Interviewer: “Oh my goodness. Yeah, so what happened to that?” He never even got it out. We—He put it inside the boat itself in the inside, and before we even left the pier, he was so seasick he never got it out. Interviewer: “All right. Now do you suppose the unit commander decided to be the lead boat because he was going to be on television?” I’m not going to answer that. I would think it may have something to do with it. Interviewer: “All right. You were talking about encountering bunkers and so forth. Aside from a machine gun, what else could you use against a bunker?” Well, that was my main one when I—we get into that type of situation, but I know that we— When we did other raids, I carried an M79 grenade launcher, but we didn’t—I didn’t use that against bunkers because it’s—They’re not more safe. In other words, mostly rounds like that— They have to be about so many feet out the barrel before they’re armed, and so if you shoot at something too close, you can—The shrapnel can get you. Yeah. (1:00:01) �Robinson, Michael Interviewer: “Okay, so what would you shoot at with the M79?” I would knock out hutches and stuff. I could—A football field away at full bore I could drop a round from the M79 right in the doorway. Interviewer: “Okay. You’ve got a story in the memoir about using white phosphorus grenades.” Oh my god. Yeah, this was at—We had this new guy onboard. He was 6’2”, 3”. Big guy. And he had this blue beret on, and he was a real badass-looking dude. And we went in to destroy the— this village. It was all VC. That was the one where the—We moved up the barricade for us. We got to the village, and they were all gone. I don’t know why, and so we’re just going to burn it to the ground. And this white phosphorus grenade is very big and heavy, and he looked like a big, strong guy. And the kill radius of the white phosphorus is like thirty feet, so you had to be—You had to throw it—It had a long fuse—thank god—so you got time to throw it way out there and back off. Well, this guy—He pulled the grenade because he was just going to—We were going to burn up some hooches over there, and he pulled the pin on the grenade. And he wound back like he was going to throw it to the length of a football field, and he ended up getting—throwing it just like a girl. And it landed right beside our bow. I mean, that’s not past our bow but right beside our bow, and, of course, we backed out of there so damn fast. And, you know, two twelve-cylinder diesels going in full. We burst the whole boat. Just shaking, trying to jump to get out of there. We get out of there just in time when it went off. Interviewer: “What happened with him?” He said it was an accident, and he’s going to do another one. (1:02:01) And he went over to the other side. Did the same thing. Five feet. We had to back away, and he said, “Good. That was an accident.” Because—But he’s, you know, real tough guy, and he was going to go throw another one. I said, “No. No, you’re done. You’re not going to throw—ever throw another grenade. You aren’t going to throw it.” And he—Of course, he’s a lot bigger than I was, and he says he’s going to throw another grenade. I says, “No, you’re not.” And he stepped outside the—on the—by the door there to get—And that’s where—Right below my .50s, and there’s a guard, so I don’t shoot my own man. But that barrel was only about six inches above his head, and the tip was right over the top. So that was going to be pretty loud, and he stepped out there. And I shot a six round burst, and it knocked him right down. Knocked him right down, and he—Of course, he called me a bunch of names, and he went out to go to the other side. I just swung my .50s right over his head again, lowered as far as I could go, and opened the .50 calibers again. And he went down and didn’t come back up, and he didn’t throw a—Never threw another grenade, but I know when we got back, they took him off the boat. And we never saw him again. Now I don’t know if they—He went into a hospital because they—I’m sure it blew his eardrums out, and I didn’t know if he went home. All I know is he was gone, and nobody died. And that’s all I could think of is, “You’re going to kill us, and you ain’t going to.” Interviewer: “All right. You’ve got a couple other stories in your memoir about different kinds of characters, and one of them was a new officer who came to the boat.” �Robinson, Michael Yes. Yeah, he—We—Like I say, you don’t have a new person—Only one new person at a time because that way you don’t have any—Nobody freezing, and if they do freeze, you only have one person freeze. You don’t have the whole boat, and he was cockier than hell because he was an officer, you know. We were just enlisted people, and he was being very “I’m in charge” type of attitude. (1:04:08) And he tried to—He wasn’t going to stand any night duty, you know. He was going to sleep, but for our boat to function at night—Was—We usually had one guy on the helm and watching the radar, watching the—Anything around us, and then we had like a bank of three or four radios that we monitored all the bases close by. And so we had two people—You had to have two people all the time, and the rest were just—Slept on the boat somewhere, and mine was the starboard engine cover because it was nice and warm. And—But he would—And we really had a long discussion about him not standing watch, and plus, he wanted to paint our boat nice and pretty. And the whole thing is is when you have a boat that’s all shiny and new, that’s like throwing on a red flag. You know, everyone wants a piece of that new crew, so you don’t paint your boat. And he—We had a discussion about that, and he kept saying, “Well, you made us get the paint. We brought it onboard, and we aren’t going to use it.” And we pulled up alongside—You usually patrol a minimum of two boats in the same river at the same time, so you could back up, you know, and kind of support each other. And during—Sometime during the day, you would pull up alongside and have dinner together or some dang thing, and we pulled up alongside our sister boat. And we were talking. I says, “This character wants to paint our boat, and we’re not going to do it.” And he kind of like—“Yeah, probably not a good idea.” And he says, “Yes, you are,” and, well, we got into a big discussion about that. (1:06:02) And he—I’m getting my stories mixed up here, but anyways, we didn’t paint the boat. And we ended up getting into a position where we were boarding sampans to the—You know, check out for contraband and all that stuff, and we usually locked the boat up against their boat. And that’s when the—I no longer am any good because I can’t lower my .50s there, so they usually have me crawl out on the boats. And we were getting ready to do that, and the helmsman—He, you know, walked the boat right up to it, and then we tied them to us. And then he has a twelve gauge shotgun right by the helm where he pulls off, and he stands there and helps guard while we’re down there. And we pulled up alongside, and we didn’t even tie it up. And something happened. I don’t know what it was, but he was standing out at a very—Almost by the bow there, and the rest of us was just starting to get down. And then—And he hit the throttle, and two twelvecylinder diesels—That boat just leaps right out of the water, and you can’t be—I mean, you can’t stand up. You have to grab onto something. Well, the guy who was standing by the helmsman did this kind of thing trying to grab a hold of something. Well, he—The only thing that was hooked right there was a twelve gauge shotgun, and it was still loaded. And it went off, and the officer up front—He hit the deck, and he got hit. And we find out later—I’ve got to say it. This was a [?], and he got hit with one BB. He didn’t get hit with a whole shot, and—But we had medevac. I mean, he was screaming and hollering and all that stuff, and we went down to the mouth of the river and met a medevac ship. (1:08:01) And we were offloading him, and they kept yelling down at us, “You really did it! You really did it!” “Jesus Christ. Shut the hell up. We did nothing now.” “It’s you that shot him. You did it.” “Oh, Christ.” And, “We don’t know where that round came from.” We said, “It didn’t come from us, man. And, well, somewhere. It came from somewhere. We don’t know.” But he was only gone for three days or maybe less. I don’t know. I can’t remember, but he came back on the boat. “Damn it. He’s a good officer.” But we didn’t have to paint our boat, and he’s—He helped night watches. I mean, he ended up being the best officer we had. �Robinson, Michael Interviewer: “Okay. How many officers did you have?” One officer onboard. Interviewer: “Yeah, but I mean over the course of your tour.” Oh, I had—I probably had three or four. I know I had at least three because I was on three different boats. But may have had another replacement—Well, he came onboard when I was on one, so at least four then that I had. And he was—Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay. How did you wind up switching from boat to boat? Did boats get damaged, or you just rotate, or...?” Rotate, rotate. They had a new gunner coming onboard, and they says, “Hey. We need you to cover this boat, so we can put him on all by himself.” Because you never want more than one guy at a time, and so we rotated. I was on at least three boats. I don’t remember too much about that. But I know I was on the 28 boat, the 37 boat, and I don’t know what the other one was. But I was on three different boats, and we would—When a new person would rotate in or somebody—Because we came in country at all different times, they would get shipped out, so then we’d get a new guy onboard. Interviewer: “All right. Okay. Now was there—Would the men who were in crews on different boats—If you’re all in the same barracks together, do you know each other, and…?” Yeah, because when we—Like I say, we always—When we were patrolling the same river, we pulled up and made dinner together and all that stuff, and so we knew each other pretty well. (1:10:07) Interviewer: “Okay, so you know more than just the crew of your own immediate boat. You know some of the other guys.” Absolutely, absolutely. We—Like you say, because we would patrol a river with boat 29 or something like that, and then later on we’d end up being on a different boat. We always shift off because we don’t have always the same boat we’re patrolling with, and we—So we had all different boats that we—But our barracks was always the same place, and when we did go back, we partied pretty hard together. Interviewer: “Okay. You’ve got a story in the memoir about, I guess, a new guy coming in at night and not being very happy.” Yeah, this—He was a radarman. I mean, I knew what he was, but he had gone out on base. We just came back, and I was—got to sleep in my own bunk for the first time in quite a while. And he was coming in off of partying at night off base, and he was a big, big guy. And I hear some guy cussing and swearing, and I hear pounding and screaming. And I get up, kind of look up �Robinson, Michael over my bunk, and here’s this great, big, monster guy with a guy hanging off each arm, trying to settle them down. And he’s punching lockers. He hits them so hard they go flying, and I’m thinking, “I’m not going to stop him. Those two big guys are hanging off his arms. I’m not going to stop him.” So I guess I look at my locker and think, “Ah, shit. I’m going to have to clean all this up.” And he was walking down and cussing because somebody—He got drunk and got his wallet stolen, and so he was kind of mad. But by the time he got to where my bunk was, I’m thinking, “Yeah, well, this is it.” His bunk was right across from mine, and he got him in bed. (1:12:00) And then, “Cool. My locker made it.” And the next day we got our new radarman. It was him, and holy shit, he ended up being the nicest, gentlest, loving, hardworking, doing—You know. I mean, he was awesome to have onboard, and we actually became—He was the only one I actually became friends with. We—I went to—He lived in Detroit. I went to his family’s when we got out. He came to my family’s when we got out, and... Interviewer: “All right. You have another story in here about working with a Coast Guard ship.” Yeah. Yeah, okay, that’s a good one. We were down in this one river. I don’t remember names, but right in the center of the big river was a great, big, huge island. And down one side of the island there’s a canal, and he wanted to—They wanted to get their Combat Action Ribbons. Is what they wanted to do. They want to go up there and get shot at. Well, they couldn’t even think about turning around, so they would have to back out. Because they thought they could go straight through, but it got too narrow. And I guess they got in—They got what they were looking for. They got into a firefight with the people on the island, and all they had was one .50 on the left side—or on port—and one was on the right side, you know. And then maybe an M60 here and there, but they had less firepower than we did. And they’re so high off the ground that they couldn’t shoot anything, you know. And so they just screamed at us, “Come back and help me! Help us! We need help!” And so we went on in there, of course, and we did take care of business and got them stopped. But we had to escort them out because they had to back out, and it took them forever because they, you know—In the great, big ship they’re in. Interviewer: “Okay, so what was that boat supposed to be doing?” (1:14:01) Out on the coast. He wasn’t supposed to be on the rivers. Interviewer: “Okay, so you’re looking for sampans, not looking for firefights.” He was looking for— Interviewer: “Well, he was looking for a fight that day.” Yeah, but we do—Our normal thing is patrol the area and looking for sampans and looking for trouble. You know, that type of thing, but he bit off more than he could chew. Interviewer: “Okay. Now are there a lot of islands in the rivers?” �Robinson, Michael Yes, quite a few islands in the rivers. We—One of the rivers that we—It’s probably the very last one in the chain that we normally patrolled, so we spent a lot of fuel getting down there. And so when we—First chance we got to cut in, we cut in just by that island, and we had to go the Army base, which is around the tip of the island. And we hadn’t even uncovered the guns. They said, “Well, we better get refueled to do our patrols then.” Because I think it was a three-day patrol, so we had to refuel before we could even start patrolling. So we were going around that tip, and we—A little bit too close, and we had them open up on us. And our guns are still even covered, and I said, “Holy shit.” You know, so we went straight away, and while we were going straight away, I uncovered my .50s and got them ready to go. And we spun the boat around and come back. I just chewed up the beach, you know, and we didn’t even get hit. And I don’t know what we did, but we never got shot at again. And we went and refueled, and we did that. That was quite an experience. Interviewer: “All right. Now aside from supporting ground troops, what else could you— are the mortars for? Or, at least, you have another story in there about using them, I guess, when you were just using up extra ammunition. ” Yeah, at the—Usually, when we have a long, open sea run, that, you know, salt in the air and all that stuff—You’ve got to—If you haven’t used your mortars in a while, then you don’t want to get salt in there and saltwater in the mortar box, so we sometimes empty it. (1:16:16) And then we say, “Hey. Where’s a good spot to shoot these rounds?” You know, and we—They gave us the coordinates to give us, and so we just sat there and emptied our mortar rounds in this one area. And, I guess—Because they say, “There’s a bunch of VC there. There’s a whole bunch of them.” We said, “Yeah. Okay. We’ll drop them in there.” We did, and about two days later, I guess, a VC Chi Hoi—Is that right? Turned himself in, and he says we hit them pretty bad. And so we did some damage there, and that was just getting rid of the old rounds. Interviewer: “All right. Okay. Do you have encounters with wildlife or livestock?” Yeah, well, livestock was only one thing, but wildlife—We went up in this one river where we— It was a pretty long ways. Where we were patrolling it was long, and at night you can hear our engines. And so we’d go out, and we’d turn around and come back. And we’d go out, turn around, and come back. And they’d listen to us, and we got far enough away. They’d quick go across the river and get—Before we could turn around and come after them, they were already on the other side by the time we got there, so we’re going to be real smart and dropped off two of our guys on this tiny, little island. And that was right where they were crossing, and so we told them, you know, “Let us know when they—” This was when we could first see them getting ready to go and all that stuff, so we went down. And they called back kind of excited—very excited—and so we ran back up there. And they didn’t catch anybody, but there’s, I guess, wild pigs on that island. (1:18:10) And they move around at night, and here these poor two guys with M16s and couple of grenades on them. And, you know, they didn’t—I mean, that’s all they had on them, and they called us up, like I say, on the radio. And, “Come and get us, come and get us, come and get us. We don’t know—” And they couldn’t—They didn’t know what the heck’s going on. They couldn’t see. It was pitch-black, so we get there. And here’s a poor—Guys were backed out of the river up to their waist, aiming their guns at the beach, and then they—And it’s just pigs who scared the hell out of them, and so we didn’t do that again. We didn’t—You’d �Robinson, Michael think we could learn, but pretty cocky Americans. And we were going to get them, but we didn’t really get them. And then we—Couple of times we almost caught—Just at dusk we would come down the river, and we’d come around a corner of an island. And we’d come around the other side, and there’s somebody crossing. And I remember you were going to try and stop him going full bore at them. They kept going. We had great, big speakers telling them, “Don’t lie. Stop.” And stop and all that stuff, and I ended up shooting some rounds in front of their bow, thinking that will stop them. All I know is there’s something coming, and it kept going. And I’d bring him in a little closer, and then he just kept right on going. And so there’s somebody onboard that they didn’t want us to catch, but we—I didn’t shoot him. I didn’t kill him. They made it all the way to the other side, and about the time we got there—the same time—And here’s the boat just jammed up into the brush, and nobody’s onboard. And so I just kind of did damage on the boat a little bit, but we never caught anybody. But...(1:20:03) Interviewer: “All right. There are some kind of standard sort of Vietnam stereotypes and things that come up, and I’ll kind of just ask your perspective on them. One of them has to do with race relations. I mean, was everybody on your boat white, or was there a mix of people in boats?” There was never any trouble there. I don’t know if there were—I don’t even remember. I know a lot of them are white. Most of them are white, but we were—You know, we were crew, and we were brothers. And I don’t remember a whole lot about that, so... Interviewer: “And it wasn’t—The base—I mean, there weren’t a lot of just base personnel or other people that you saw much of.” No. I heard—We heard an awful lot about—In the Army. The Army bases had a lot of problems, but, you know, it’s only six of us on the boat. So you’ve got to be—And, you know, you rely on those six people, and so we never—We had one person that—He came onboard our boat, and, you know, you hear about all this drugs all the time. Well, we didn’t have any of that, and we had this one gunner’s mate who came on our sister boat. And he smoked marijuana and stuff, and we got out into a pretty good firefight. And he didn’t do a very good job. He was higher than a kite, and when we got back, he never came back on the boat. And so we didn’t—I mean, we drank, but usually afterwards. But nothing to jeopardize our people. Interviewer: “Okay. Now you were in Vietnam for a full year. Did you get an R&R at some point?” I was supposed to. Yeah, and I told them, “You know, if I leave this place, I’m never coming back.” So I stayed right in my barracks. (1:22:00) There’s an in country R&R place right by us. I think it’s Vũng Tàu. Is that…? Yeah, and I didn’t even go there. I didn’t even go there. I mean that’s—We—You can—The people that—I mean, they did water skiing and swimming and all kinds of stuff on that base, but I said, “If I leave here, I am never coming back.” So I didn’t go anywhere. I mean, we got to go Australia, Japan, and all kinds of—I mean, people would come back saying, “Oh, man.” And I’m saying, “I wouldn’t come back.” You know, so no, I didn’t go. �Robinson, Michael Interviewer: “All right. Okay. Now I just want to see—Okay. You mention at a certain point you actually got up as far as Cambodia.” Yeah, that river where that big island is—They had a new PBR for—to go up to Cambodia, and they were stationed where we went and got, you know, fueled. And so we went up there and— To refuel, and we have big gas tanks. And the PBR that we’re going to escort up there had obviously smaller gas tanks, and so they were going to ride in our wake and save fuel. And I don’t know how this ever happened, but we got drinking quite a bit. And they were in our wake trying to, you know, save fuel and their bow slid off our wake and caught in the river and threw everybody overboard. It did an 180 degree—It threw—The only person that wasn’t—didn’t get thrown overboard by the PBR was the guy hanging onto the helm, and the rest of them did. We went back for them, and they went back. And we loaded them back up, and we all got sobered up pretty quick. Interviewer: “Was that an American crew, or was that Vietnamese?” No, American. No, we never did—They weren’t turning over the boats just then. It’s all American, and by the time we got to the Cambodian border where we escorted them to, everybody was sober and dry. And that’s the only— Interviewer: “Now were you on a branch of the Mekong River at that point do you think, or…?” (1:24:16) Oh, we were on one of the rivers. Yeah, I don’t remember which one. I can’t remember which— what the name of it is, but it went all the way up into Cambodia. Interviewer: “Okay. Was it a big river or fairly wide?” It started that way, and it kept getting, you know, smaller and smaller and smaller. And it got faster and deeper, and that was an unusual situation because a lot of times we’d get caught into a whirlpool. And the boat would just sit there, and you’d—You got—We were trying to go forward, and it wasn’t going forward. And so—But usually we could work our way out of it. You know, kind of overpower it. Interviewer: “Okay, but you were—If you’re drinking on that mission, was the expectation that that particular mission was not dangerous, and nobody was going to bother you?” I don’t know the answer to that. I think that’s what we figured it—They’re going up there with no guns on them, so we were escorting them. And it was just going right up the center of the river. We weren’t looking for— Interviewer: “Okay, and then did you bring that crew back with you?” No, no, they went up there, and that’s where their station was. �Robinson, Michael Interviewer: “Okay, and, of course, you’re there basically in 1969, and the official Cambodian incursion doesn’t happen until 1970. But we’re operating there in ‘69.” Yeah, they were doing it long before I—we went in there. That’s for sure. We were there—Many years before us, and then I went up there. Interviewer: “Okay. All right. Now you mention at a certain point also working with Marines. Did you actually—I mean, Marines are known mostly for being up in the far northern part of south Vietnam.” (1:26:01) Well, I want to say the Marines. I never met the people, but I was—They were—We went out— Again, we didn’t have a Sea Lord Raid, so we were just going to—For the night we were going to anchor, and we usually go out in the deepest part and the widest part of the river and anchor. And I think we were too close to one bank, and we were anchored there. And I was sleeping on my favorite starboard engine. You don’t sleep inside because if you got hit with a rock or—A concussion would kill you or pretty mangle you. And so we were just anchored there, and we had one guy in the boat. I mean, one on the radar and one on the helm, and we’re basically anchored. And I’m laying there, and, all of a sudden, I hear gunfire. I hear AK-47s and M16s, and, of course, they’re so close together that I couldn’t tell—All I saw was muzzle flashes like this. I thought at first they’re coming at us, so I jumped up to my gun tub, lowered my .50, and was just going to open up on it. And the guy down on the helm banged my foot. He says, “Hold fire. Hold fire.” I said, “What the—What do you mean hold fire? You—” And in that second or two that I held fire I realized that the bullets were going this way—not coming out at us—and so I just—We just stood there. I just stood there and just ready to go any minute because we didn’t know what’s going on. And, obviously, we found out later that—I say the Marines because that’s what I said. I don’t really know for sure, but I—They—A patrol—let’s put it this way— ambushed a VC patrol. They’re going to ambush—They were out on the beach getting ready to set up and ambush us, and they ambushed them. And after the firefight was over with, you know, you’re sitting there. “Who won? What do we do?” And, finally, the—I keep saying Marines. They called us on the radio and says, “We got them.” And he says, “Okay. All right. I think we’re going now.” So we pulled away and got the hell out of there. (1:28:13) Interviewer: “Right. Odds are they were Army just because of where you were, but—” Probably, but I said Marines because—one thing—my—I have a Marine buddy that—We did a lot. He got blown up pretty bad over there, and we—And then we did do a lot of Special Forces people, and so I don’t know. Like I say, I was Navy. I didn’t know. Yeah, they all look alike to me. Interviewer: “All right, but yeah. All right. Now let’s see. The—At a certain point, you got a Navy commendation, and what particular action was that for?” First three months—That’s not for it. It’s for the middle three months. For six months, I mean, in the middle that—And that’s why—I don’t know what officer it was, but he was very—Kept a lot of good records and stuff, and I can’t—I mean, because I never knew—I mean, I’m just shooting, man, and he wrote me up for the number of sampans that I knocked down because I— �Robinson, Michael We’d go in through a place, and I just blow everything up. And bunkers, and we’d just blow them all up and everything. Interviewer: “So basically it was something for just kind of doing your job.” Yeah, exactly what that was, and it was a six-month period he must have been on my boat. And it was—I read it, and it scared me, you know. And the very first firefight I was in, you know, is not in there because it was the middle six months, so those firefights—They’re not in that book, and the last three months are not in. It’s the ones in-between, and those are the two ones that affected me the most. Is the first and the last. (1:30:14) And so that blew my mind when I read that because they put us up in a nice, big parade and—Trying to make it sound glorious. It was— It wasn’t too glorious to me. Interviewer: “All right. Now to think back at the time that you spent in Vietnam, are there other particular memories you want to bring into the story that you haven’t talked about yet?” I know we went to go on a raid that we were coming up the river, and we’re supposed to cut into this one canal. It was daytime, and it was going to be all VC camp back there. And we knew it was there, and they knew too that we were there. And coming up the river we’re coming up fast at full force, so they sound like we would go right on by. And what we did was make a hard left and then go into that canal. Well, soon as we made the hard left, I looked up, and here’s this cable hanging across about this high on me. And, of course, I was screaming down there to— “Stop, stop, stop!” And we came to a stop, and that thing was right up against the gun tub. And we didn’t—If we didn’t—If I wouldn’t have saw it, it would have chopped me right in half, and we didn’t know if it was booby-trapped. Were there claymore mines on both sides of us, so it wiped us all out or what? So once we got stopped, we cut the cable, and then we went up there. And it was all—I mean, people were just standing there with their—They didn’t have time to go anywhere, and so they’re just standing there with nothing in their hands or whatever. And we had a couple of—I don’t know if there were Vietnamese policeman or army regulars, but they lined—They were already lined up. (1:32:01) They made them line up a little straighter, I guess, and they were asking them—We knew it was VC, and they yelled, “No, no, no!” And then—And they killed them, and that’s when they showed us where all the guns were. And we hauled them off, and that was wow, you know. I don’t even know where we took them. I mean, it must have been an army base close by that we took them to or whatever because we picked the army guys or the policemen or whatever they were up close by within, you know, like five, six miles. And we went in there looking for trouble, and... Interviewer: “Okay. In the pictures that you’ve got, you’ve got a shot of what seems to be a kind of—What’s along the shore, but some kind of store or shop or something like that. Was that a Vietnamese operation, or was that on a base, or…?” Yeah. Well, it was a general—Yeah, it was a general civilian grocery store or boat rental or whatever it was. Just a little town, and that was supposed to be always friendly. And we ran into a couple of places that weren’t. I—Something to that effect—I don’t know if that was the picture �Robinson, Michael of whatever, but I’m always up on my gun tub. And somebody opened up on us, and we’re in town. So all I did was just lay a line of fire right over top of the town, and it stopped. And so… Interviewer: “And would you stop at any of these towns and get off, or would…?” The only time we got off is when we blew the heck out of that one company or whatever—I don’t know—and they told us that we wiped them right out. And, for some reason, we said, “Oh, let’s go take a look.” And we got off the—Couple of us got off the boat, and we walked into where they—Where we supposedly wiped everything out, and that was the stupidest thing you could possibly think of. But we did it. (1:34:11) Normally, you don’t get off. Some of the South Vietnamese that we stopped—I mean, we fuel, and we pick up people and do stuff like that. But we don’t normally—We would help them fish. We would—The poor, little Vietnamese boys down with these little throw nets. You throw it in a big circle, and it comes down. And you pull it up, and you get a little minnow or some damn thing inside there. We told them, “Back out of the way. Get out of the water. Get back on the shore.” And we would drop a concussion grenade over the side, and all the fish would float up. And, “Ah!” They’d come over there and grab all the fish because if the big ones—They couldn’t find them. This—That way they’d pull them right up to the top, so we did that a couple of times. Interviewer: “All right. Now did your duties change at all at the end of your tour?” I’m not sure what you mean by that. Interviewer: “Or did you stay off the—I mean, you talked about your last mission, and in the memoir it suggests that for a while they just kept you on shore or at the base.” Well, yeah, after the last mission where I—we got shot up really bad and my gun tub was full of holes—There’s a couple of times I’ve been—Where we were in some pretty bad firefights that I’d go into shock and just—I’d come off of—We came out of a patrol that—“Hey. We did all right.” I’d look around, and from where—my vantage point, I could see everybody’s fine. I’d say, “Hey. We’re all right.” And I climb down, and the guy in the other aft .50 come up and started shaking me. He started screaming at me, “You all right? You all right?” And I say, “Yeah. What the hell’s up, man?” And he says, “You should have seen the tracers going by your head.” So I crashed a little bit during that time, and—But—I mean, now you’ve got me going on this. (1:36:03) Another time we came out of a patrol, and we thought we come out smelling like a rose because we couldn’t—“Nothing’s hit? Nobody’s hit? Cool.” So we’re sweeping the old— The brass off the back, you know, into the river, and the guy who was—The aft gun guy who was cleaning up—And he looks over, and he looks at the back of our mortar box. And there’s five holes in it, and there’s no holes in the front. So—“I wonder where they went.” And so we very carefully unloaded the rounds and kept looking at them, and we found a—See, they’re in cardboard boxes, and the thing is there’s open bags of gunpowder for the projectile part of it. And so if you hit one of those, or—I mean, one 81 mm mortar would blow our boat to hell, and the whole mortar box full—We wouldn’t have been—They wouldn’t even find anything, and so we very gently found them. Very carefully and very gently lowered them over the side and thank god. �Robinson, Michael Interviewer: “Okay. Now that time when your boat was—It was a recoilless rifle that went through the engine?” Yeah. Interviewer: “And then did that shell not explode? Did it just push right through the engine and out the other side?” I think it blew up inside the engine because we had a hole that big going in, and there was nothing coming out the back sides. I don’t know what—Because the engine covers were opened up this way, so we got out. And, I mean, they’re so tight together that I couldn’t—We—It didn’t hit the other boat—Other engine, so it had to get stopped inside there somehow. Interviewer: “Okay, but if it blew up, it would’ve—You probably couldn’t have started the engine.” I can’t answer that, buddy, because I tell you, Jim, I—There’s so many times that I don’t know how I’m still alive and here. I really don’t. I have no clue because as many times as I should not be here. Interviewer: “Okay. All right. Now you get now to the end of your tour. How do they get you back to the States?” (1:38:00) I flew back. I was off the boats for the last probably week or two because I was worth a shit because that was the time that they hit that mortar, and my gun tub was all blown to hell. I was useless, and you get—When you first come into country, you’re scared after your death, and you ain’t worth a damn. And then about halfway through, you say, “All right. I’m going to take as many of these bastards with me as I can.” So you—You’re getting a little bit cocky, and then after you get started near the end, you think, “Maybe I’ll make it after all.” And so you start getting a little bit nervous, and it gets worse and worse as you get closer. And so when it was time for me to go, they just— “Robinson, why don’t you take the last week or two off?” I don’t know, and I was just on base. I didn’t do anything, and then they flew me out. Interviewer: “All right. Okay, and where do you land in the States?” California. I want to say—I don’t know the—what— Interviewer: “Would it be San Francisco, or…?” Yeah, something—Must be something like that, but I don’t remember exactly. But all I remember—Coming off the plane, and there’s no barbed wire fences. And it was so cool, and we had such a tailwind that I got back—The next day I had a flight to go to Saginaw, Michigan, and we got back so early that I had enough time to get checked in and got on the plane a whole day early. �Robinson, Michael Interviewer: “Okay. Now when you get back to the States, did you encounter any protesters in the airports or anything like that?” I was blessed in that way because I heard—We heard a lot about that, but on the—In San Diego where we flew in at I think that was a big enough place that they didn’t—And I wasn’t there very long. That I didn’t see anything. And then I flew into my hometown, and there was all kinds of people there. But they were for me, and my little brother—He was supposed to be—go to Vietnam, and I told you he got orders. And I was there, and he didn’t have to go. So he came home on leave the same day from the Army, and I flew in. (1:40:07) And I—The last—From Chicago to Saginaw I flew standby, and, of course, military standby is one thing, but then the veteran—The Vietnam veteran standby gets a little more, and so I bumped somebody. And this is my story in its own. I’m going to tell it the way I have it, and Richard says they don’t know for sure. But I bumped one person obviously, and I think he was supposed to be on that flight coming up from the army base down south somewhere. And he got bumped, and that was fine by me. By the time I got home, we have all the people waiting for me. I got drunker than a skunk again. We—Of course, I—My dad says after about an hour and a half—He says, “We’ve got to go back to the airport.” I—“What do you mean?” He says, “Rich is coming home.” So he’s a bigmouth, and he’s always smart-mouthing on shit. When he got off the plane and saw me— Because he was supposed to do that for me the next day. I wasn’t due back. He didn’t say a word. He couldn’t talk. It was so cool. “Hey, Rich. That’s the first time you ever shut up.” And we got kind of drunk out that night, but we were home for—I had thirty days leave. Plus, they gave me a little more time because whatever, and so we were home for thirty days together. And he went to Germany, and I went down to—I don’t know if it was Charleston, South Carolina and got on these same boats. On base only, so I didn’t have to go back out at all. Interviewer: “All right, and so how long did you spend down there in Charleston or whatever the last part of your—” It wasn’t a whole year I don’t think. I don’t know how long it was, but I remember that they wanted to do a bunch of maneuvers with, you know—“See, we’ve got to give them some practice.” And they’re supposed to go on these—When I went up to what would be island that the training we did in the woods and all that stuff, they wanted me to go in there and help them. (1:42:16) I says, “I’m not going—” You know, we’re going to—We’ve been shooting all blanks, and I said, “I’m not—I mean, you can’t shoot a .50 caliber machine gun or [?] at me.” You know, I was pretty bad, and I probably still am there. And I said, “I’m not doing that. You’re shure out of luck. I’ll take care of the boats.” And that’s what I did. Is I stayed home basically. Interviewer: “All right. Did they make any effort to encourage you to stay in the Navy?” Yes. Malta, south of Italy. The Maltese police were having a lot of problems with drug runners, and they wanted us to go over there and teach them on our—On my Swift boats how to, you know, search and—Search boats and all that stuff. And I was supposed to get a three months early out, and then they says, “No, we’re going to actually extend you.” And it didn’t go over too good with me, and I got kind of a little bit upset about it and told them where to go. And they says, “Well, if you can find somebody that can take your position on the boat, we’ll let you go.” �Robinson, Michael Well, I found a PBR guy, and I trained him on my boat. And then he took my place, and I got to come home. That was… Interviewer: “All right, so once you’ve gotten out of the Navy, now what do you do?” I guess I went into civilian life. I started—The guy I came home was just home on leave, and then somebody was installing carpet and linoleum in my parents’ house. And I was kind of laying on the floor watching him, and so he says, “Do something.” (1:44:07) And so I ended up doing—I went into floor covering for a while and countertops, and then I did all kinds of things like custom cabinet building. I did electric mower repair, and then I ended up writing manuals for machinery for—When the Ford and Chrysler and GM all have these great, big machines in the plants that assemble the engines, I wrote the step-by-step instructions how to operate them, maintenance, and the training on them, so I did that— Interviewer: “How did you wind up with that job?” Yeah, my little brother—the one I went in the Army with—He’s very good at writing this stuff, so he got into that. Well, I like photography, and I wanted to go in the service. That’s what I wanted to be, so I had taken that up after I got out just for playing. And he says, “Hey. I’ve got to go down to this one plant down in Indiana, and I’ve got to have pictures taken. Can you go with me?” And I wasn’t doing anything. I said, “Yeah, I’ll go with you.” And after I was there taking pictures for him and all this time, and he was so swamped at his regular job—This was another plant that—down there. He says, “You’ve got to write the manuals.” “The hell I am.” Because I don’t know how to write manuals, and he got me started. And I kept getting better at it because I always want to do the best I can possibly do. And I got pretty good at it, and the fact is he says, “You know, these manuals are pretty nice. Now you’ve got to teach it.” “I can’t talk in front of people.” And he says, “No, you’ve got to. You’ve got to teach.” So they ended up—And my sweet, little brother—He says, “Yeah, he’ll do it.” I says, “You what?” And I’m shaking like hell in front of everybody, but the only thing I figured out which helped me is I wrote the manuals. (1:46:01) I know every inch of those machines, and so when I got in front of all these people standing there looking at me, I’m like, “Yeah, what do you know?” And I started to tell them that if you have any problems with these manuals, and you have—“If there’s anything you find wrong, and it doesn’t explain it right, you let me know. I’ll kick the guy’s ass.” And then I—And they all—“Yeah, right, you will.” And I said, “Well, yeah, because I wrote them.” And then it came easier because they did have questions, and I could answer them. Well, I did that until cancer got me. Interviewer: “All right, and you have health issues that relate to Vietnam service as far as you know?” Yeah, I started out with mantle cell lymphoma, which is a blood cancer, and lymph nodes—Your lymph nodes try to clean your blood. Well, they swelled up huge, and I tried to get the Army— Not the Army. The military to do something about it, and they says, well, I have to get on a list to get on a list so I can get on the list to get in. And I couldn’t—You know, I’m watching this thing swell up almost—The side of my leg. And I finally went to a private doctor, and he did a biopsy. And he says, “Yep. You’ve got stage four mantle cell lymphoma cancer. You’ve got to �Robinson, Michael start chemo right now.” And I was paying for this for myself, and I says, “I can’t—I’ve got to make the military pay for this because I can’t afford that.” And so I got the paperwork from them, and I went to the VA. And they still—I couldn’t get in, and I slammed that down on their desk and told them what the hell I—What the story was, and they took me in the back room. And I got talking to a doctor, and he says, “Just a minute. I’ll be right back.” (1:48:01) And two, three days later, I was in the ER getting chemo, but I had to—It’s been years. They wouldn’t pay off my initial thing because they says, “Well, you could’ve come to us.” And I said, “You son of a bitches. I tried to come to you, and you wouldn’t—You know, you wouldn’t take me, and I didn’t—I don’t have time to play around.” And so I ended up having to pay for my own original, but they—From then on, they were absolutely fantastic for me, and then I did—I had—I ended up getting prostate cancer after that, and then I ended up having to have a bone marrow transplant. I did all kinds of things. Interviewer: “Now do you think you were exposed to Agent Orange?” Absolutely. I was sprayed with it at [?]. Yeah, we were on a support mission. We dropped off a bunch of troops, and we just run our bow up on the beach. And then we sit there with our 81 ready to go, and we wait and see if they need any help. They—We give them some help, and we’re sitting there. And it started to rain. I kind of look up. I says, “There isn’t a cloud in a billion miles.” You know, and it was the Agent Orange. We got sprayed with Agent Orange, so that was how I got zapped with that. Interviewer: “All right, and did you have some version of PTSD or something along those lines?” Yeah, yeah, quite a bit. I still do. Yeah, I don’t know if that will ever go away or not, but I still jump. And it was worse the first ten years. The first year I had to sleep with a gun, and then the next ten years I would—I’d cry myself to sleep because I was thinking of all the things I did. I killed a lot of people. I killed a lot of people, and I was so ashamed of what I did. (1:50:12) And it was—So I married a woman in ‘71 or ‘72—something like that—and she was a godsend to me. I mean, she helped me the best way she could, but she could stick around so long. And it just never went away, and so after twenty-four years, she had enough. And I put her through enough, so I let her go. And that was in ‘95, and—But pretty much not—It was pretty much nothing like it was at the beginning when she had to go through—I still have nightmares. If it wasn’t for these memoirs that I wrote, it still would have a hold on me. For the first time, I could feel it let go of me. I know what I did, and I know what really helped was the fact that my people—all my people on my boat—came home alive. My people came home, and that’s the only thing that saved my ass because I never looked at it that way because I just looked at what I did and the families I destroyed and the people I destroyed. And for the first time I understood that my people came home, and that was war. That was war, and people die in war. And it took a long time for people to get that through my thick skull, and my little brother was one of them. And Amy here that’s—She’s helped me talk through some of this stuff. It really—I understood that that was war, and I did my job. (1:52:08) And it—And nothing to be ashamed of, and so my people came home. You know, I was kind of proud of that, and that’s when I finally started to get out of this murder realm of cancer and stuff. �Robinson, Michael Interviewer: “Yeah. Now to look back at the time that you spent in the service, do you think you took anything positive out of it?” Oh god, that’s a good one. I know—I don’t know if I can answer that. I was very bitter for so many years, but… Interviewer: “Do you think you learned anything, or gained any kind of perspective, or…?” Yeah, well, that war is stupid. War is stupid, and the only people who get hurt are the little peons. The generals and the presidents and all that and not just our side. I’m talking both sides. They don’t fight the wars. They don’t get all thrown in the nitty-gritty. They don’t die. They just point their finger and say, “You go.” And that’s—I’m a little bitter in that sense. Is the fact that you don’t have a clue what you just told me to do. You don’t have a clue what it means to go over there and shoot these people and kill them. You know, they—Well, they’re—These poor guys that I was fighting were people just like me except on the other side. They were told, “You shoot those Americans, or I’ll kill your daughter.” You know. “Here’s a gun. You fight the Americans, and if you don’t, I’ll just kill your daughter.” And so what choice did they have? And so I have nothing against the Vietnamese people. I do have to do with the generals and those people. I will never be very happy with them because I—You’re not—They don’t have a clue, and what you’re doing right here—I hope to god that this helps people understand that it isn’t pretty. (1:54:16) It isn’t pretty. There’s no honor. You know, they tried to tell me I’m doing this for God and county. I wasn’t doing it for God. That’s for sure. I’m not killing these people, our people, my people for God, and I certainly didn’t think I was doing this for country. Big business. The weapons people, the Agent Orange people. Always making all this money off the wars. I wasn’t doing it for my country. I wasn’t doing it for—And my [?] fight. The six people. That’s what I was fighting for. To keep them alive. That’s—And get them—So they can come home. And for their families. Because that big radarman—Remember that? He was my buddy. He had a family with three kids then or four kids or something like that. They’re Italian, you know, so they have a lot of—And I was so glad that he got to come home to his kids. I was so proud of that, and, of course, we did it together. You know, all of us. Interviewer: “All right. Well, it makes for a pretty powerful story, and I appreciate your willingness to come and share it today. So thank you very much.” Thank you very much. (1:55:33) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_RobinsonM2286V Title A name given to the resource Robinson, Michael (Interview transcript and video), 2018 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-11-12 Description An account of the resource Michael Robinson was born in Grand Haven, Michigan, in 1947. He graduated high school in 1966 and only attended college for a year before recieving his draft notice. So, Robinson decided to enlist into the Navy in which he trained as a gunner's mate and was assigned to a minesweeper based at Charleston, South Carolina, becoming the crew's designated diver repairman. He was then transferred to San Diego for training in Swift Boats before being deployed to Vietnam. In Vietnam, Robinson was assigned to a Swift Boat unit based at Cat Lo, conducting patrols, searches, raids, escorts, and fire support missions in the Saigon and Mekong River deltas during which he served primarily as a machine gunner. After his tour was over, he returned to Charleston to complete his enlistment. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Robinson, Michael W. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, RHC-27 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/334e4073a159e09923145f4035443144.jpg 54fcf24c5102ad6015a326d64d6b2d8a Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Decorated Publishers' Bindings Subject The topic of the resource Book covers Covers (Illustration) Graphic arts Publishers and publishing Pictorial bindings Description An account of the resource From the early 1870s to roughly 1930, many publishers issued their commercial book covers with a remarkable variety of graphic designs and illustrations. This sixty-year period saw many artists and designers contributing to this art form. While some can be identified from their style or initials, others remain unknown. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Seidman Rare Books Collection Michigan Novels Collection Regional Historical Collection Lincoln and the Civil War Collection Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-08-30 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>, <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-01 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Source Seidman Rare Books. PZ7.C348 Wi Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-01_Bindings0075 Title A name given to the resource The Winning Hazard: A Story of Machine Logging in the Pacific Northwest Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Robinson, Rachel (Designer) Description An account of the resource Binding of The Winning Hazard: A Story of Machine Logging in the Pacific Northwest, by Allen Chaffee, published by The Century Co., c.1929. Subject The topic of the resource Book covers Covers (Illustration) Graphic arts Publishers and publishing Pictorial bindings Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1929 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/12c40449e4fc9e1defbff92f471c7e1f.pdf 427557416c790d55c04b422ffe6b296d PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Grand Valley State University Special Collections Interviewee: Richard Robinson Interviewers: Iris and Christa Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 4/5/2012 Biography and Description Richard Robinson discusses his experiences with discrimination as a gay male. Transcript IRIS: Okay, we are here today on April 5, 2012 in the LGBT Resource Center with our friend Richard Robinson conducting an interview; and Richard, we, obviously as I kind of laid out, we just really want to hear your story and our objective is to talk to someone who has been perceived as different by others or by society. So, to start with, how do you think that and why do you think that others perceive you as different? RICHARD: For a while, I didn’t know why people perceived me as different but there were just instances; I was bullied a lot in elementary and middle school. Particularly in middle school there was an incident where people were paying others to punch me in the arm because they knew it would get a reaction out of me. Why they perceived me as different, I could think that because I was sort of an introvert; I was kind of nerdy and I didn’t want, I didn’t.., act like the other boys my age did. I wasn’t into the same things they were. I really didn’t care about sports then; it never happened that I started caring about girls ever. Turns out that later, oh hey, you’re gay, that’s why and so I imagine for a while it was just I was a strange little queer kid and people didn’t know how to handle that; and so they, that sort of social normalization of pick on them until they do what everyone else is doing. That if you’re not acting the way everyone else is acting that you will be perceived as different and they will come after you for it. + IRIS: So what kind of things, I mean when you were little, do you think that really set you apart, I mean at a young age what.., how really different can you be? RICHARD: I was a little ham, I have a, I have a photo album of me flirting from that my mother gave me of all the pictures of me and throughout the ages of oh, 3-4 years old to like 16, 17. I just thought it was clever or funny but for whatever reason ever single picture has me with jazz hands in it. Not a single one was different. IRIS: What’s jazz hands? Page 1 �RICHARD: Yea, the hands are out and up in here. Except for one, there’s one that’s even, that’s even gayer than that. There’s this photo of me about to go on my first day of kindergarten or something and I’ve got my, I’ve got my arm in the crook of my backpack’s shoulder strap. I have my right leg up on one toe, and my knees bent and my head’s back going ‘Yayyy’ *Iaughter* It’s, it’s... I don’t know, I couldn’t teN you why I thought any of that was, was clever or a good at the time, it just was and everyone thought it was adorable so I think I just kept doing it. Oh it’s funny that one time it’s really good you should reinforce behavior in a child once, it’s going to keep going and going and going. It was never corrected, it was never told to stop, it was never tod anything and there was even pictures of my brother mocking me doing the exact same thing I’m doing. Hands on hips or whatever, and he’s but he’s scrunched his face up and he’s brought his eyes towards his nose doing a kind of fish face of what I’m doing; just to be funny, just to sort of poke fun at his older brother. IRIS: So, from a very young age then, you kind of felt this identity... RICHARD: There was something, something going on but I, I I have an aunt and uncle that live in San Francisco for a long time and I showed them that album when I went to visit them for a few months. They, they, my aunt looked at that and she said ‘Rick I’m sorry, if I had seen this, I would have told them’ *Iaughter* IRIS: Told your parents? RICHARD: Told them, that I was, that I was gay. *Iaughter* I eventually did come out when I was 17 years old going into my senior year of high school. I decided that I wasn’t going to do it anymore; I screwed up my courage and I told everybody. I just, I shot gunned it. Before that, there were too people that knew sort of to let the pressure off but at that time I just, I emailed some friends, I spoke to some over the phone, I told some in person. But all that was after I told my mother, I told her first and then everybody else found out from that. IRIS: How did your mother react? How was your family? RICHARD: I came to her... I was going to do it the year before but turns out that my dad wanted to get divorced and so that put pressure on the family and so I didn’t. I guess I sort of held back because I didn’t want to make it worse on people; I didn’t want to go ‘Oh their getting a divorce oh and by the way’. IRIS: Oh, but that’s so sad that that would make it worse. That’s just a fact of life. RICHARD: Yea it is, it is but I’m in Grad school now and I’ve always been sort of a little researcher. If I don’t know something I know how to look things up; and so when I figured out that I was homosexual the internet was just around. I was, it was 1998-9 that I started figuring it out and so... The internet was really just starting but there were already a couple resources on-line. There was a couple websites I frequented, coming out stories, how to come out, you know those things. And all the statistics on what that is... You might want to pause for a minute while we wait for it to get quiet. *turns off recording device* Page 2 �IRIS: Ok RICHARD: Resuming recording. IRIS: Yes, so as we were saying Richard you knew that there was always something maybe a little off. When did you, when were you able to put words with this? RICHARD: There’s, there’s three events that I remember quite clearly that lead up to it. One I was five years old in kindergarten I was, I had been transferred to a different kindergarten than I was in originally because the teacher had accidentally left me in the bathroom when they took the rest of the kids out to recess. So I come out of the bathroom and then there’s nobody in the kindergarten trailer room. That was rather frightening, I panicked. I was only reminded of that But only at my new elementary school and there’s this , there’s this other boy whose house, was sort of friends with, his name was Phillip and for whatever reason, I don’t know why but I did the whole grab hand, knuckle, kiss thing. That I had seen in Disney movies or elsewhere; and three years later or so about seven or eight years old I’m at the bus garage with my mom because she’s a bus driver and my brother’s there we’re both in the same school and we ride the bus home with her to the garage and we go home in her car. And, my brother asks my mom ‘What does gay mean?’ and I pipe in because I loved answering questions and I say ‘Well it means you’re stupid or something’ and my mom goes ‘No, it’s when men like other men and women like other women’. And we’re like.. ohh. We thought it was kind of weird, but we didn’t think aboutto for too long we just sort of went about our day; no big deal whatsoever to either of us. But that is one of those instances where I was first able to connect... well then that mustbe bad. Because why would people use it in this way without it being bad; there’s no reason too. It’s either its bad or these other kids are all idiots, which is true but (laughter). And then I’m thirteen years old, oh geez when was this? Freshman high school, so that was makes me yea about thirteen, fourteen years old and I’m in gym class and my eyes lingered a little too long on some of the guys playing basketball and I go ‘Ohhh crap’ and that, it was just very clear right then and there that that started about three or four years of really bad depression. Really really bad depression because every single, because I’m still hearing faggot, fudge packer, gay, queer all day long everywhere. Every five seconds there’s another shout in the hallway or someone saying something completely ignorant around me and once I had had made the connection that what I am is bad, I got really worried and by only and when I get worried about something like that I research. I look up everything I can, what is this? What does this mean? What’s going and the internet had just come around, so I’m going online, I’m looking up comingoutstories.com, other places like that and I find the statistics about what happens to kids who come out before 17, 18 years old and it turns out its scary things like I out of every 4 of them is kicked out of their homes that were 4 times as likely to attempt suicide. That were 10 times as likely to be bullied in school; that was already happening, was already happening. I was already a target for a lot of people. And when you, when you’re bullied like that there’s no way to fight back because their being subversive about it; their being quiet about it, their being... their doing it in ways that can’t be seen and the only response that you can give back to them is to try and humiliate them in return but the only way to do that is to do it more openly, publicly and to actually fight back. When you fight back, you get in trouble because you started something. There was, there’s no finesse amongst, amongst teachers that I had were about dealing with bullying. It was only Page 3 �whoever was the most overt about the incident; they were the one who’d get in trouble. So you don’t do anything, you just sit there... IRIS: So you didn’t do anything? RICHARD: You grin and take it, for a long time and you grin and take it. I ended up later getting some piece about casting the right people out, flipping over a couple of desks. But here’s someone sitting in my chair and (told them to move and they didn’t so I flipped them out of it because that’s the only way to deal with it. If you don’t respond physically, if you don’t show them you won’t be a target, you will be a target. And that’s sad but that’s just the way it had to work out but anyway there’s all these bad things that happened. That if you come out and, you can say, I can say things oh I know my friend wouldn’t do that to me or I don’t believe that would happen or that would be really bad it’s still a 75% chance that I won’t happen if I tell them. But it’s.., it was no comfort that because it’s not true that I knew them well enough to say that because how many of those kid who were kicked out could say they knew their family well enough to say that ‘No they would never do that to me?’ It happened anyway; how many loving families are split up by this because who knows who’s secretly in the back of their minds going ‘I can’t handle the thought of having a gay child’. IRIS: That’s a lot, I mean and so you said you came out when you were 17. RICHARD: Yea IRIS: And you had been hiding this for a couple years. RICHARD: Yea, four years at that point. IRIS: and how, I mean, really how deal with that? RICHARD: Grades were shit... IRIS: Really? RICHARD: My graduating high school GPAwas 2.1. IRIS: Wow RICHARD: And to say that I’m now in grad school it’s like you can see what a big of a gap that is. My ACT score without doing a thing; without studying, without caring, without really knowing what was on the test was a 27 that was about an hour before the test began. My reading comprehensions were 31 so I’m in the 90th percentile for at least one metric on that test. But my grades were shit and that wasn’t the only reason. I was kind of contemptuous of the, of the material there were giving us. Where I would, I would get... I would not do any homework then I would ace the exam and be passing the class whereas the person next to me would have done all the homework, had failed the exam and weren’t passing the class. So I didn’t see a need to do a lot of the work to get by was one and it wasn’t challenging, it wasn’t interesting and I didn’t care not to mention I had so much other crap to deal with. So I’m stuck in this prison for 8 hours a day where my worst hated enemies who don’t want to be around me, I don’t want to be around them; but we’re stuck in classes together, we go to the same lunch hour, we’re we use the Page 4 �same locker room for gym. But the way to deal with that is just I got into a, I found a few safe people to be around that didn’t, that weren’t cruel to me and then I just spent as much time around them as I could. IRIS: That was going to be my next question. Do you have any friends from high school, people that you still talk to? RICHARD: Of course, I have three I have three really good friends. Tim, Tony and Justin; Justin is still the best friend to me in the world and we, we talk every week. Tony and Tim both joined the military afterwards and Tony’s got an interesting story. This was one of those things that could have gone really poorly for me. I came out to him by email and I called him up tried to tell him to check his email but he wasn’t there so I had to give his stepdad the message so like ‘Could you ask him to check his email’ he’s like ‘Yea, airight got it’ and he closes the phone. Airight so I’m worried here that would throw a curve but that wasn’t who I was coming out to anyway and I wait til the next day, I barely sleep that night, wait til the next day, call Tony and go ‘Tony did you check your email?’ And his response was ‘Yea, I’ll be right over’. And he’s coming over my house and I got maybe, ten minutes to think about what’s going to happen? What is it? Is he going to come over with a baseball bat? What’s in his hand when he gets to my door? And I open the door and he’s just got the same goofy expression that’s always on there and we chat for a while; we talk and he comments that I seem much happier now that I’ve told people and I was. I was much, much happier that I told people but I didn’t know what he was going to show up at that door with... and so it really freaked me out for a little while and what was really funny was there’s another incident with his stepdad. Where, I’ve been friends with Tony since middle school. It’s already been five years that I’ve known Tony and I’ve known him for fifteen at this point and , I’m going over to his house and we had slept in the same room, the same bed just as a sleepover and having fun, play video games, guitar, that sort of thing. But the first time I did that after coming out to him, Tony told his stepdadand his mom and his stepdad’s kind of, kind of weirded out by it, kind of weirded out that Tony’s sleeping in the same room let alone the same bed as the gay kid and he’s going ‘Should they be in the same room?’. Like but really, really really tapping around it but not really forcing to say it, like should they really. But Tony’s mom pipes in saying ‘What is he going to do Dave?’ (laughter) I don’t know, ‘What is he going to do Dave, it’s Richard, Dave’ (laughter) IRIS: And of course it was the man who would say that and the women who would say ‘Come on’. RICHARD: Well... Yea, there’s some truth to that but it was just... It was an interesting view, into the dynamic of those two... so, it was hilarious. It was one of the funny things that happened to me but when I say I came out at 17, I really want to get this part in. There’s incidents of before that, that happened to me that would have been worse had people had known. Was at a family reunion when I was fifteen, just before I turned sixteen; so about maybe 4, 3 or 4 months before my dad says he wants a divorce. I think, I think so and I’m at a family reunion and a video game that I liked had just come out. I had my own computer and I had this game, Diablo 2, and I had the collector’s edition. I had the game manual and this thing had come out three days prior and I am forced to go to this family reunion. I did not want to go to this family reunion. I wanted to sit home; I don’t know who those people are. I don’t know any of their names, they’re not my family; they’re sort of my parents family, in a strange way. Page 5 �Even they don’t like the very much, but no, we’re going to this family reunion, fine. Alright, I’m bringing this book. I bring the game manual and I’m wearing one of my snarky, black nerd T-shirts because I’m a 15 year old kid who’s questioning his sexual orientation. I don’t know what else to do but to wear a black shirt (laughter) With some silly nerd comment and it might have been the yellow sign with that, says land party animal with people sitting at computers, I don’t remember. But my great Uncle Val sees my sitting over there all alone all by myself, sort of moppy, sort of pissed off; kind of like ‘, I really don’t want to be here’. And he asks to see the book I’m looking at because the front of it has got fiery letters and gold trim and spikes and it looks all demonic because that’s the game, that’s what it is. And he asks to look at it for a while and he flips through it and he sees all the artwork in there and he sees what they’re talking about; demons and hell’s spawn and it’s the worst kind of video game you could show to an apparently Evangelical Christian. He proceeds, to slide that back over to me, goes to my mother and starts offering her an exorcism for me. No joke, tells her about this time that he and his other churchier friends or whatever held down this kid who dressed in all black and gothicy from the high school and sprayed holy water at them. That’s the kind of people that are on my mom’s side of the family and we left immediately. Much,much praise to my mother for just making that decision to just getting us the hell out of there at that point. But it was, I think back on that; the thing was kind of funny at the time, it was absurd but if people had, if it had been known that I was homosexual at thatevent, that could have gone much much much worse. That could have been much worse for me and I think would my parents would my parents have made the same decision that they did without having regards to his offer. Yea, they probably would have. She changed contacts, she changed information and who knows. And so I’m kind of frightened now thinking back on that day.. I could have, that did not always go my way. Not in the different scenarios I could run, it’s true that that could have been bad. But my parents were worried about me but they weren’t that worried about me. IRIS: I know you said you had a brother, a mom and a dad.. RICHARD: And a sister. IRIS: And a sister. So what kind of conversations did you have with them? RICHARD: I didn’t. I didn’t. I told my family after the divorce, my mom was a bit of a gossip so I tell her and she tells everybody. And then I proceed to not talk to anybody else about it for years. Because everyone just goes ‘Oh’ and them no one talks about it. It was, it was the one of the most dis-heartening parIs of things that happened. She tells everyone and then nobody ever bothers to ask me about it. I didn’t want to get to tell the story about what had been going on with me to any of my family. Not my brother didn’t ask, my sister didn’t ask... they still haven’t asked. My dad, she told my dad during the divorce proceedings, before the divorce was finalized my mother told my dad this thing that I had told her and what I really don’t know is I don’t know if she told him out of malice; I don’t know if she told him to make him feel guilty. But then he never came to me for four years I didn’t talk to him about it, we didn’t mention it. I knew he knew, he knew I knew he knew. IRIS: But not a word was spoken? RICHARD: Not a word was spoken... not any contacts. Page 6 �IRIS: That’s not healthy. RICHARD: It wasn’t and it really depressed me a little bit more but I was out, I had friends and people knew and I didn’t have to hide it from anybody else anymore. I didn’t have to worry about me giving back to them; so if they didn’t want to talk to me about it 1 kind of had this ‘Screw them ‘approach about to it. If they don’t want to, if they’re interested enough to come and talk to me about it then fine. And they since have said ‘Well we just don’t know what to say’. Anything, say anything; ask me a question. Ask me something that you’re comfortable knowing; I will answer it truthfully. You can ask me anything; I’m supposed to be your son, your brother whatever but nope, I didn’t get much of anything out of them. And we’ve sort of made peace out of that it’s just so far in the past now, it was... God, I’ve been out of the closet for, this will be ten years this July. IRIS: So, when did you feel comfortable enough to start relationships openly, open relationships with men? RICHARD: Well, there’s the other kicker because it’s hard enough meeting people when you’re gay, we’re dealing with as much smaller portion of the population. Grand Valley here is a much higher percentage of the population here is women than it is men at Grand Valley alone. IRIS: It is, it really is. RICHARD: It’s like 60: 40 or something like that. Reality I should have gone to Tech which is like 30% women 70% men but anyways, I was bit of a reclusive nerd in every other sense so not only was I gay in a small population, I was the reclusive nerd. My masculine.., what do I want to say? Not mentors but peers were intellectual, largely unsexualized, competitive, compassionate men. Other, other nerd, other people; it was all about seeing who’s smarter than the other ones. It was all about seeing who could figure out this puzzle or who can beat this person at this game, this very, very intellectual game. IRIS: So all your friends were nerds? (laughter) RICHARD: Yea, all my friends were nerds. I was a nerd, my friends were nerds and we already... there’s this thing where because when you grow up and you’re a teenager you supposed to learn to sort have relationships; we had little stupid relationships. When you’re gay, you don’t get those. We don’t learn how to date in high school; we don’t learn how to approach people in high school; we don’t know how to say those things in high school because we’re not given the opportunity to because if we do, there’s a good chance that we’re going to get assaulted from it. There’s a good chance we’re going to hit on the wrong person and it’s not going to go well for us. So we don’t and on top of that I already don’t know how to talk to people because I’m a nerd; since gotten over it but I was... talk about socially awkward people... look at a table of kids who are only brought together because they’re outcasts or because they’re all a little bit smarter than the curve. That’s the group of people I came up in so I really didn’t have any... in high school, community college, undergrad. I really didn’t start having relationships until I got of undergrad and I got my, I moved to California. My aunt and uncle were the ones who lived in California. I did my undergrad here at Grand Valley in Anthropology and part of that was I got to do an archaeological field school which qualified me to be an archaeologist and I was. I joined the forest service for a service as an intern, and I was an archaeological field technician intern. I got paid to hike Page 7 �around the Sierra Mountains for a summer and it was one of the best times of my life. But after that, I had family that lived just north of San Francisco and they let me stay with them until I found a job and I got to live in San Francisco. lt wasn’t the great... it was sort of this really ignorant thing I did because I think, ‘Aha’ I just came to the gay city; I just came to the place that is the place for it. But I get there and I find out it’s not younger people, it’s the gay men’s population there is in their 40s now so it’s much older than I am. I was 23 at the time but whatever I had fun there. I was there for seven months; I lost my job and the city’s so expensive. I was paying twice the Michigan mortgage for an apartment making less than $30,000 a year so it was not going to no... And I moved back... I moved in with my mom she was in North Carolina at the time. So I go from San Francisco to Winston Salem, North Carolina *Iaughter* IRIS: Yea, that’s a big jump. RICHARD: Right it’s just, it’s not the... it wasn’t a very good, wasn’t a very good move for me but I eventually made it back here got into grad school. IRIS: I’m just checking on the time. RICHARD: No it’s fine. IRIS: So when you came back here, when you came back, I’m just interested in like what kind of relationships have you had? RICHARD: Not many, none that I would call serious boyfriends, just a couple flings here and there; nothing that’s... kind of once, nothing serious now but that’s always been... there was no point in my life where I knew where I could see far enough ahead where I could see something. Since the divorce.., since my parents’ divorce, about 11, 12 years ago now, I have moved on average two or three times a year. Either in the same city because the apartment we couldn’t keep it or something happened or we needed a cheaper place or whatever, it just happened that I lived in 16, 17 different places since the divorce 12 years ago and right now. In some of those years I moved 4 times; a couple of those years I didn’t move for the whole year but a bunch of those years I moved a lot and.. IRIS: *fly interrupts interview* Oh that fly is going to bug me. RICHARD: Yea, it’s getting to me too. But I never thought that any of that was conducive enough to actually finding something that was longer term or serious because why? I don’t know what my life’s going to be; I don’t know where I’m going. I went from Grand Rapids, Michigan to the Sierra Nevada Mountains to San Francisco for seven months to Winston Salem, North Caroilna to Charlotte, North Carolina to Detroit for a little bit, back to Grand Rapids. I lived in Holland for a month, found a job at a milk factory. Moved to Standale to my friend’s parent’s house; paid them rent for a bed. Lost that job, got back into Grand Valley to finish off a minor; ran out of money and got a job selling natural gas door to door. This, so right up until a couple years ago, just before I started grad school, I did not know about this program that I am in until two months before I was in it. Two months before grad school started in that fall, I found out about the Massive Public Administrative program and I did a bunch of research into what Public Administration was and I go ‘This is cool; I want to do this. I want to study this stuff; this Page 8 �sounds great’. And my job in San Francisco had been with a non-profit, I had just worked for government. And then I go and talk to them about it and I’m saying m graduating GPA from here was 3.2 and I tell them that I had this experience in government work and the non-profit sector and I would like to pursue that and they go ‘Oh you’re a shoe-in. Just get us your letters of recommendation and we can get you in for the fall. And I tried, and I tried, and I tried, and I tried, and I tried, and I tried, and I tried, and I tried but it seemed as if, that it wasn’t going to work. It seemed as if I had missed my opportunity that something wasn’t going to come in on time and in the, the Wednesday before classes started I got my acceptance letter. I got my admittance letter that I’m in grad school now. And I’m like ‘Holy crap. What can I do?’ and the next day and I’m in the graduate student office and I’m going ‘Can I do this?’ and their like ‘Yes, go talk to Financial Aid.’ So I go talk to financial aid; I sign-up for financial aid on Thursday. I sign-up for classes on Friday; I borrow money from a friend on Monday to buy a book and I’m in class that night *Iaughter* And that’s was my entry into grad school and it’s been indicative of my entire time since high school. I have never known where I was going to be; it has been so tumultuous that I have never felt ready to be in anything. I’ve never known anyone. When you move that much; when you move from different towns, from different places, you never get a chance to be a part of a community. IRIS: So are you from Grand Rapids? RICHARD: No IRIS: Where are you from? RICHARD: I’m from Clarkston, Michigan. If you know where the DTE Energy Music Theater is? CHRISTA: No IRIS: No, I’m from Ohio. *Iaughter* RICHARD: Oh, it’s a Detroit suburb in northern Oakland County. IRIS: Okay and that’s where you went to elementary and high school? RICHARD: That’s where I went to elementary, high school, middle school, the whole thing. My entire, my mom’s from that town. My entire families from that town, except my dad; my dad’s from Ypsi... Ypsilanti which is closer to Detroit but more about Ann Arbor area. I didn’t even know about Grand Valley until several months before I came here the first time. It’s been by the seed of my pants, doing this whole higher education thing and... IRIS: Yea, I completely understand that’s kind of how I am too. This is the third university that I’ve gone to; I’m always moving about, trying to find the next best thing. But that’s really interesting.., but where do you see yourself? What do you plan ondoing? Do you want to live in Michigan? Do you want to live in Grand Rapids? RICHARD: Yea, out of anything else, out all the places I’ve been, California’s beautiful but there’s something about Michigan that I just find so endearing. I love, I love this state. I love all the trivia, I know Page 9 �about it. I know so many little things about this place that are just so strange. I go elsewhere like if I went to Ohio I don’t know if we’d find the same sort of strangeness about the state. Like for instance, this has nothing to do with the interview but it’s funny. There’s this town in Michigan called Novi; Novi is the number six stop out of Lansing from Lansing to Detroit. So Novi, N-O-V-I is the number six stop. IRIS: Oh so you just randomly know that? RICHARD: The name of the town, the name of the town in Novi it was the number six stop. They sort of built a town around a train station and caHed it Novi. (laughter) IRIS: What does Novi mean? RICHARD: Let me write it out for you. This is why it’s hilarious. Number six.. Iris & CHRISTA: Ohhhhhhhh. I get it. Really, that’s why they named it that? RICHARD: It’s called Novi. Michigan is full of liftle shit like that and it’s just, (just find it so amusing that that stuff exists. That’s why, that’s why that’s the number six stop. IRIS: How do you feel, I mean I know you said you’ve been to a lot of different places but as far as like culture goes, I think people are different everywhere.. RICHARD: Well yea, there’s... for the lower belt line of Michigan, there’s largely three groups that you can vaguely discern. There’s people who live around Detroit, auto industry. Every single one of my uncles, my dad, my dad’s family, all of them – auto industry. I have connections to GM, Chrysler, Ford. I have people who work in the UAW just as part of that organization. Every single family out There is completely, inextricably linked to that industry. You get to the middle of the state, it’s state workers. You ger around Lansing, the people that work for the state. There’s this middle bit around Lansing, Ann Arbor that’s much, much different than the Detroit suburbs in the Detroit area. And then Western Michigan that’s this whole other culture in its own. I mean these middle two are similar but within Michigan itself just the lower ha’f of the lower peninsula is three completely distinct culture groups and more if you want to start dividing by ethnic lines and insular cultures and specific countries of origin. Michigan itself is so incredibly varied within it, even if it is mostly white people. IRIS: Especially west Michigan. RICHARD: Yea, especially west Michigan. But yea, I think I interrupted the question that Michigan, that other places are so different. IRIS: Oh yea, so I mean do you, do you feel like there’s more out there? I mean I feel like especially west Michigan, just coming into Grand Rapids I feel like I’m coming from a big bubble a smaller bubble. I mean I’m just, my question, I feel like you have all these ideas and your very inspirational. RICHARD: There’s a couple interesting things about Grand Rapids itself. Grand Rapids is the second largest city for philanthropy per capita in the country. Some west coast city, whichever Bill Gates lives in. Page 10 �IRIS: Seattle? RICHARD: Yea, so I think Seattle counts as the highest place for philanthropy per, as a percentage of the city’s GDP is there and then Grand Rapids is second in line. So if I’m doing non-profit work, Grand Rapids is one of the best places to be but there’s also a lot of competition. I mean, largely my plan is to take a job wherever I can get it. If I have to move to get work, I will. I have no compunctions about leaving the state; I’ve left it before. I’d love to stay, love to stay but if someone hands you an offer ‘Here’s $45,000 a year’, I’m going to leave. IRIS: So your main concern is work then and not so much finding those new people, different people building different relationships? RICHARD: I have preferences; I’d love to live on the coast again; east coast, west coast. On the water, as close to the ocean as I can. And this largely is the same here I mean I live reaHy close to the lake. If you haven’t had a chance to go out to Lake Michigan, wait til the summer. IRIS: I can’t wait; I’ve never been. RICHARD: it’s amazing. Absolutely fantastic beach; really smooth sand, clear water and you get in and it’s not salty. Its fresh water and you’re like ‘Holy crap, this lake is gigantic’. IRIS: It’s cold though. RICHARD: It won’t be warm enough til about late July. 1aughter* Til then, it’s still going to be about 40 degrees that water, it’s crazy. But I loved living in San Francisco; I love being that close to the ocean. I worked in an office where I overlooked the bay from my window that was five feet from me and I looked out one day and there was a pirate ship. Someone had a mock pirate ship; it had a mast, sail, mooring lines and all that. IRIS: See that’s my thought that people who are weird, are different you like to push theboundaries, they can do that. On the west coast like no one would think anything of it whereas here, it’s ilke someone. I say, one of my friends came to class, he’s going through his transition this summer. He came to class in a kilt, a skirt and everyone was like ‘Oh my God’ what I mean like I just knew. I mean, I just, I don’t know. How do you feel? RICHARD: Grand Rapids is getting better. I mean look at how small this city is and you realize there’s four gay bars downtown. Four. So this place is small it’s insular but there’s a community here and Grand Rapids was, in 1994 one of the first cities to enact any ordinance barring people from being evicted from their housing for being gay. That was 1994 that Grand Rapids did that. The current mayor, he was on the board; he signed that. He put that forward through the city; he was on the city board, city council then so he did that and that, so he’s still there I don’t care that he’s Republican at all but he signed that; he got that through in 1994 and he’s still an ally now. And so what we can ma e some broad strokes about it but I really.., you’ve got to dig into the city to know that for certain. And not to mention, Grand Rapids is fantastic for food. It’s a foodies paradise here if where to look. Page 11 �IRIS: Peppinos? RICHARD: Oh no no no, you haven’t even scratched the surface. IRIS: I think I found my new favorite pizza when I had Peppinos it was so good. RICHARD: Yea and it is extremely good but you haven’t scratched the surface of Grand Rapids food; it’s amazing. There is a woman named Olga, she opened, she’s Haitian and she opened a Haitan-Creole restaurant in Easttown called Shea Olga. And it’s this absolutely amazing food! It’s absolutely amazing. You can get black rice mushroom gumbo there. You can get, you can get lamb in fried plantains. You get Haitian coffee and ginger tea and it is the best food I have ever had. It’s in Easttown. IRIS: My mom’s Dominican so that’s my favorite too. RICHARD: Go to Shea Olga, you will not be disappointed; absolutely, amazing and the little things like that are everywhere. There’s two Papoosarie’s in town. There’s a Papoosarie from Honduras and there’s one, I think they’re from somewhere South American but there’s just a fantastic variety of food from all over the world is in the middle if Grand Rapids and people wouldn’t know it when you look at Grand Rapids but if you start branching out a little bit from downtown, you start looking around, it’s there. And it’s getting better, it’s getting so much better in Grand Rapids and as long as the metropolitan city, there’s very little you can discern between them. I mean yes cities have their cultures and cities have their own places but if cities get big enough, there’s going to be two things happening. The gays are going to show up and there’s going to be better food. *Iaughter*Thats really the only two things I require. (laughter) Which is another reason why San Francisco was awesome because there was more bars and restaurants per person in San Francisco than anywhere else in the planet. It’s a tiny city that seven miles by seven miles wide with only 700,000 people in it but the bars and restaurants per person is more than New York, is more than Beijing, is more than any other city anywhere. IRIS: Have you ever been to Washington, D.C? RICHARD: I have, it was a middle school trip I was about eleven years old. I went to Washington, D.C. IRIS: Really? I went there recently. I think you’d really enjoy it. RICHARD: I think I would too. There’s sort of this political environment that I’d be really happy about. I even told a few professors that I should get into politics eventually but I’m a gay atheist in West Michigan. There’s no chance for me to be elected locally here; I’d have to move. IRIS: Yea, you might have to move. RICHARD: I might have to move. IRIS: Wow, that’s funny. Alright well let’s see what else we want to talk about. RICHARD: We’ve gone over where I’ve been; we’ve gone over where I’m from. I gave enough, I gave all the pieces to my little progress. Not necessarily in order but close enough. Page 12 �IRIS: Yea not in order but that’s okay. airight, well, I think, let’s talk now about kind of what you’re doing at the moment. I know we met you at the Transpectrum Transforum. So you’re a member of what exactly. I know transgender that you were saying is an umbrella is an umbrella term but how do... RICHARD: Yes, I’m not at all a member of their community but I am, I try to be a strong ally. I try not to draw too much attention to it. Because 1 don’t want, I’m really conscious of not trying to make, trying to be an ally without making their pain about me. Like I’m just going to be there and I’m going to support as much as I can because if you talk about pain people go through. Theirs is so much worse. So much worse and just to measurably statistics are so much worse. The things you can see; the rate of suicide, the rate of homelessness; the rate of poverty all the soulful metrics are far worse if you are transgender in this country versus just being a member of the LGB community. And somewhere in the sexuality spectrum if you start breaking through the gender spectrum, things get worse pretty quickly for you. IRIS: Where so you see the LGBT community going? I mean I personally through even coming to Grand Valley and taking something these classes on diversity and women and gender studies, I feel like these future generations are getting more and more educated. No one thinks.., no one would openly say ‘Yes, I’m racists’ in myopinion as we’re progressing throughout time. So I feel like there’s only a matter of time before everyone is equal, no one can be excluded and no one can have their rights taken away from them because that’s wrong. 1/ RICHARD: We’d hope so; we’d hope so but our history tells us something different. We must always remain vigilant about the victories we have gained because if you look at the area that is now Germany, in the I 880s and 90s, the Jewish people were getting voting rights, property rights, and protections from the government. They’re starting to make all the gains that gay people are making right now. Civil rights protections, ilberties; they advert, they participate more openly in fully in government and then 50 years later, look what happens. Not even 50 years later shorter than that. Within a generations lifetime, things completely go to hell for them and we’re There living there in that part of the world. Yea, we can say that it’s wrong for them to take these things away from us but by no means that relieve us of the responsibility of making sure that the victors we gained aren’t lost further down the line. It only takes the right set of circumstances or people to start fear mongering and grab the other again and to put all the blame for all societies’ ills all on a group of people. Number one, we can stop them then we all would be better off and so, I disagree on that point but I... IRIS: I just feel like that once all these old people kind of die off. (laughter) all the stubborn old people will give up. RICHARD: It’s not.., we sort of want to put the blame on an older generation that’s that didn’t know any better. But I’ve met enough of that generation who do sort of know better that it’s just a cultural thing. It’s just a piece, it’s just an idea that’s been spread generationally and yes young people are disproportionally to be more supportive. But it’s disproportional, it’s not all of it. It’s not everybody. So those gains that we’ve made with the older generation, we made with them and you keep making with their grandchildren, we should. But, I totally understand. My grandma blamed the internet; she said I was gay because I was up on that computer and he saw those guys and he’s like that and he said I want to be like that, that’s what he did. I see that but where I see it going is, I’d like to see it go this direction. Page 13 �Right now we’re sort of tacking letters onto the LGBQTIAIAA bit and it’s creating this long alphabet soup list because everybody with a different starting letter or even the same starting letter on the sexuality spectrum feels the need to put it in there for our presentation. Just for sake of simplicity, I’d like people to start saying gender sexual minorities; GSM. GSM, GSM, GSM, GSM,GSM. Alright, covers everybody alright every area that we’ve discovered that’s part of the human sexuality spectrum, fine. It’s in there. IRIS: I’m sorry, you said gender... RICHARD: Sexual minorities. IRIS: Minorities. RICHARD: Gender and sexual minorities. So it’s just anybody who’s off the norm in these two axis of human experience. We can talk about in this way but really what where it needs to be is it needs to be something that doesn’t have to be talked about. It needs to be something that doesn’t have to be mentioned. That, where people don’t assume that you’re straight until you say otherwise. IRIS: I completely agree. I think it’s so sinful. It’s sinful to judge other people just because they’re different from you. You know what I mean? Their life and what they do had absolutely no effect on you so why are you blaming them? Why are you showing so much hatred? And it’s just I don’t understand why people care so much. It’s really disheartening; it’s really beyond me. RICHARD: It’s sexist but in the end it’s about male privilege more than anything else. They see a gay man as being less than, less man than, other than, other men. RICHARD: What you do when someone is showing less masculinity is that you provoke them into being masculine again, it’s that bullying thing. Women who are homosexual, its almost seen as where lesbians are sorta more accepted in a weird way, sort of, by the straight male people most because oh that sexy. They like looking at it but they’re completely unwilling to make that sort of the same thing as gay; but they see women trying to be more like men because they’re dating women, but they see men trying to be more like women because they’re dating men and that’s bad. Women are rising on that masculinity spectrum and gay men are lowering on the spectrum and so they see this level and that sets that’s where the whole hornophobia comes from especially, for transgendered people, especially against male to female transsexuals where they’re literally changing themselves. IRIS: So you think that homophobia comes from this emasculated point of view that our country has? RICHARD: Everything, every trait that you could supply to masculinity is something that could not be applied to a feminine perspective as well unless it’s just not feminine. There are no positive traits to masculinity it4s always things that are just not feminine; you’re strong not weak, don’t be weak, don’t show weakness. It’s not be strong as much as don’t be weak. There’s no, there’s nothing that’s that we can point to and say ah hah that’s a strong masculine idea that we should be to be men, no it’s all just about not being feminine. And so when we do say as the sexual minorities that’s not our experience, it’s certainly not the normal masculine, it must be feminine. It’s really its strange and it’s stupid. If we can Page 14 �just get over that and break through that sexist boundary with more people, I think that things would be a lot better. IRIS: So 1 was reading an article, it was called the erotic and it was in in my Women and Gender Studies class, it was talking about how we are so trained to suppress our erotic, meaning ourselves, our true colors, loving affection that everyone and anyone can show, fear, just love in all of its forms and how especially men are trained to just say no. Do you feel like you are more freed because you’re not held to that standard of masculinity and how do you think we should go about future generations so men don’t have to suppress so much? Boys already know that they’re not supposed to cry and little boys already know to not be a sissy. RICHARD: 1 don’t know that sounds flowery to me and so I don’t know how much I can say about it without reading what she said but it sounds like an appeal to emotion at that point, and oh yeah this natural state of everyone being happy and lovey dovey towards each other, mmmm, I don’t buy it. As an anthropologist 1 don’t buy it, as someone who studies human cultures I don’t buy it. I don’t buy it because that’s going to bring the heart break that going to bring powerful emotions in the other direction as well. As much as we say just love each other, love each other, there’s only so much you can do. Some people you don’t necessarily like you, don’t have to like you, and you should be free to express whatever emotions you have. Whatever its sexual orientation you have with other consenting adults great, but to say that there’s something blocking people from experiencing them that themselves, I don’t really know how true that is and it would be very hard to say how true that is so it sounds good so I think she gets away with saying things like that. But what I would just like to see is, I would just like to see, whatever’ you’re sexuality is, to not be so demonized and put down by others.f we can just allow people to grow in their teenage years to just sort of not care that would be great. IRIS: How do we do that though? RICHARD: I have no idea, but just people coming out and saying I’m not straight, do that enough times and suddenly everybody in this country would know that they know somebody. I don’t care how small your family is, I don’t care how small your circle of friends is, somebody you know is somewhere, somehow off straight on the sexuality spectrum, and that personal connection is what bridges the boundary and because we can show up anywhere, at any time, with any family, at any moment, the child that you have, that child might be gay any child that’s born might be gay. It doesn’t matter there’s no positive correlation in any ethnic group, there’s no change in any country of origin, there’s no change anywhere; we are the hidden minority, we are the surprise minority, we show up ha ha and guess what. It can’t be seen, it can’t be tested for, at least not yet, but when we get there, when we get to where people can just be more and more comfortable as we break through that line of just being more and more comfortable with saying yes, and staring down those who say that we should be quiet, say that we shouldn’t do that, that’s where we make victories; and how ever it turns out, if it ends up being that everyone loves each other and the be happy thing that sounds like what she’s, talking about, great that’s fine, but I don’t think it needs to be talked about in that way. We just gotta be careful about those appeal to emotion bits because there’s sort of this line in the LGBT community because the gay rights movement started in the 60’s and 70’s free love era, I think there’s some hold overs about what this Page 15 �means, and I don’t think there all right I think there’s some things that are in fact not true about that sort of everybody love each other, everyone be happy free love, everyone’s sort of bisexual; like, no It’s not, never. IRIS: So you’re a realist? RICHARD: I care about data and what’s happening and I want to know what’s real. Everything else I could care less, I’m atheist; can’t show me evidence, I don’t want to hear about it. IRIS: Do u have any other questions? CHRISTA: I think we got mostly everything IRIS: Actually one question, do you think that if you would have come out at an earlierage, I know you said things definitely would have been different, but do you think everything would have been worse or, because I mean you were really, really depressed hiding this feeling like I don’t know, I don’t have anyone to talk to, what do you think realistically would have been better or worse? RICHARD: On the one hand I would hope it would be better, but in the end I’m not exactly unhappy with how it turned out. Those 4 years where I was depressed were spent being even more introverted than ever before. I was doing nothing but reflecting and thinking about myself, who am I, what is this, what does this mean, what’s going on, what am I going to do with my life? All that I’m not going to have go down the regular path, I’m not going to get married and have kids, that sort of wedding where there’s a woman across from me at the chapel, that’s not happening and all those little things about your future are different when you realize you’re homosexual, and I spent those 4 years thinking about it, I spent hose 4 years just being an amateur philosopher about my life and so it was no surprise to me when I got to community college, took a philosophy class and feel in love with what it was talking about because here’s how we know things, here’s how we think correctly, here’s how we can identify poor thinking, and getting things wrong, here’s how we can be sure that when we say we know something we really mean it and the tools that that gave me for further reflection, for further thinking and further work on it was really, really good. I really am happy that I have a philosophy undergrad as much as people say that is a worthless degree, absolutely not. I know so much about myself and my opinions are more formed now because I was a philosophy major because I know what bad thinking and what bad rhetoric looks like. IRIS: So it’s very pertinent to your life. RICHARD: Absolutely, everyone should take one philosophy course, it should be required freshman year of college, take a philosophy course. IRIS: I took a philosophy course and it ended up being a feminist ethics class. RICHARD: You wanna start with Socrates, everyone should have to read all the dialogues all through the Republic to become a citizen, it should be a required reading to become a participant in democracy. Page 16 �Uris: Then maybe just to wrap up, how do you, how confident are you in yourself right now, I mean honestly I don’t want to sound like stereotypical, but no one really knows you’re gay. It’s not like you said, I couldn’t pick you out of crowd, but do you think that people interact with you differently, look at you differently know if they do know you’re gay and how are you comfortable with that? RICHARD: I have always had to tell everybody, everyone was surprised, they shouldn’t have been if they had seen that photo album, they should not have been surprised, but I was I did a similar one of these things because I’m an ambassador for the resource center, and I went and I spoke in front of Greek life I spoke in front of some fraternity students and one of them had the balls to ask me, why is you’re voice so deep, because he was wondering cause all the gay guys he had seen were Jack’bn Will and Grace and everyone talks in a little higher voice and being flamey about it and no my voice is very comfortable on the baritone register because my vocal chords are just that long, but it’sone of those questions that people don’t pick up on, people don’t think about. I am presumed straight even though I am really gay, I mean it, I know what I’m talking about, I know what I like, I know who I want to date. I’ve always had to tell everybody it’s never been, people don’t look at me and say oh that’s a homosexual man, people look at me and think oh that persons gone through the whole sexuality issue in high school. IRIS: So you prefer to tell people? RICHARD: I have to! It’s not even, not even prefer, I really wish people would pick up on it. I’ve thought before, why don’t I dress a little bit more gay, why don’t I just put out more signals that I am. So I have a couple of pride shirts and I do what I can but it’s in the end 1 just whatever they’re all wrong but if that means I don’t get approached by some guys that would be interested would they know? I don’t really know if that’s ever happened, I don’t if that’s going to happen, there’s nothing I can do about it and so right now I’m still I’m about to graduate, I have one more summer class to take, but after that I really don’t know where I’m going to go, I don’t know where I’m going to live, I don’t know what city I’m going to be in, I don’t know what kind of job I’m going to be able to get. I can hope for all these really good things to happen to me because I’m getting a professional degree from Grand Valley and if you haven’t heard, Grand Valley master programs are phenomenal they’re all practical, professional programs; none of them are academic, they’re MBAs MPAs the only PhD is in physical therapy. Everything Grand Valley does at the graduate level is practical, pragmatic, and with careers in mind and its known for this so my degree is going to incredibly valuable when I leave his university, but that doesn’t mean I’m going to be able to find work immediately. It doesn’t mean I’m going to be able to find work that will provide me a moving stipend to help me get to where the job is. If I have to leave the state I require one so I can’t know, again I don’t, I’m still not in a place where I feel comfortable getting in a relationship or approaching people about it because I just don’t know where my life’s going, I just don’t know where I’m going to be and I don’t feel comfortable doing anything until I know that, until I have my own, I’m more independent than I am now which is still living off of student loans. I’ve been doing this for ten years I’ve been in college. I did it right out of high school, I did five years and I got my undergrad degree, an associates and bachelors, two years off, two years master’s degree, there’s 9 years out of high school. But that’s all I’ve been doing and at no point in there and at no point right now do I Feel comfortable saying yeah I know where my life is going. I have no idea, there’s no way to tell. It’s hard now a days and we all walk out of here with 5, 6 figures worth of debt’ I’ve got 6 figures worth of debt because I went to Page 17 �grad school, grad school is expensive! It costs me $30,000 a year to do this just in student loans that’s what I take out’ oh yeah tuition is 15 yeah but it cost me 15 just to live, just to get by, rent, cell phone, car, insurance. It cost me 15 thousand a year just to survive right now, so any job that offers me more than 15 thousand dollars is fine that is more than what I’ve got right now. IRIS: I think it’s really inspiring that people who, I feel like people might look at me difterently because I’m Hispanic, people in high school especially they thought I was black, ignorance, but I just, it’s really inspiring for me that people who, obviously you have to deal with this every single day, this homophobia, it’s really inspiring that hey, it is what it is, I’m so proud of myself, and I’m so content with everything. RICHARD: Thank you. IRIS: Thank you! CHRISTA: Thank you for talking with us. RICHARD: Absolutely, this is sort of therapeutic. When I started doing it, I wasn’t always as comfortable with it but as I do this more and more I start telling people and I see the reactions and it gets easier and easier every time I tell people, so I’m more than happy to talk about it. IRIS: I’m glad that you enjoy it because honestly I love hearing stories like this. One thing that I wrote on the Transpectrum survey was that I would love to hear more personal stories and I know that is not always easy, but how inspiring is that, you know what I mean, and educational. I would have liked to hear a lot more about the transitions that some of them went through or what they were dealing with. RICHARD: The LGBT student group is having elections tonight so I’ll put that forward that people like hearing that and maybe we can work with something. IRIS: I mean maybe it’s just me but I feel like hearing someone’s story like that, it really opens your mind, like wow I really have it good, I don’t know what’s going on around me, need to open my mind. It’s amazing. RICHARD: Yeah recognize privilege and deal with it. Not everyone’s life is like that. I’ve got a lot of privilege in a lot of ways, but you just try to recognize it. IRIS: And not enough people do it and that honestly I think that would be the solution for homophobia, for racism, for sexism is for people to open to their minds and realize that gay people aren’t going anywhere, it’s real so what are you going to do about it, it’s crazy. RICHARD: I hope you stick around for Grand Valley cause next year were trying to bring in somebody who’s been through reparative therapy to speak. Reparative therapy is when people try to change someone from being gay to not through various means, the Mormon church did this a lot with electroshock therapy in the 70’s and 80’s. IRIS: Wow. Page 18 �RICHARD: Yeah there’s a lot of it out there so were looking for someone who’s been through one of the ex-gay groups or has been through that sort of thing and is willing to tell their story, so were putting out feelers for people but hopefully we’ll find someone whose willing to speak out against those organizations like Exous international and a few others that are still functioning to this day. IRIS: Try to straighten out gay people? RICHARD: Right now there are places where a parent can send their child to pray the gay away. IRIS: I’ve heard that before. RICHARD: Yeah and it’s legal, it’s not child abuse, it should be, but it’s not. IRIS: Yup, wow that’s amazing. RICHARD: So were trying to bring that next year so stick around stay at this university and keep going to things. We have pride prom in a couple of weeks it’s going to be fun. IRIS: Like a dance kind of thing? RICHARD: Yeah because we don’t, gay people don’t get prom in high school. We don’t, we can’t bring a date to those things, are you kidding me, that’s asking for trouble. IRIS: You can’t wear what you want to either. RICHARD: Nope, so we put one on once a year and this one’s going to be good. IRIS: Well if aN goes well I’ll be out of here by next December, graduated but knock on wood. RICHARD: Well good luck. IRIS: Thank you, thank you so much for coining I really appreciate it. RICHARD: No problem. END OF INTERVIEW Page 19 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/29fa15a8c94c7f84601475edb7d2e25d.mp3 9264ca98f31c792e92d44d4f15ff45f9 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Robinson_Richard_2 Title A name given to the resource Richard Robinson audio interview and transcript, interview 2 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Robinson, Richard Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Iris Christa Description An account of the resource Richard Robinson grew up in Clarkston, MI. He attended Oakland Community College from 2003-2005 and GVSU as an undergrad from 2005-2008. His undergrad was in Philosophy and anthropology. He is now a grad student studying public administration. In this interview, Robinson discusses his experiences with discrimination as a gay male. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Gays--Personal narratives Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-04-05 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/549c5df124bc6cf7dcdc7b0bdc927b88.pdf 75a407b1116eb73b20a42e430a6b3c45 PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Grand Valley State University Special Collections Interviewee: Richard Robinson InterviewerCARBAJAL: Samantha Carbajal, Arianne Espiritu and Laura Wilusz Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 10/26/2011 Biography and Description Richard Robinson is a 26 year old homosexual who grew up in Clarkston, MI. He attended Oakland Community College from 2003-2005 and GVSU as an undergrad from 2005-2008. His undergrad was in Philosophy and anthropology. He is now a grad student studying public administration. He discusses his activesim with the LGBT community. Transcript CARBAJAL: Okay, my name is Samantha Carbajal and I’m here today, October 26th around 1pm with Richard Robinson... at Allendale, Michgan in Kirkhof and we’re here today to talk about Richard’s life here in Michigan.and then.. if you could just tell me about ..yourself? ROBINSON: Okay, do you want the general.. .. coming out “schpeil? “or to you want the the.. the the early details? later details? CARBAJAL: You can just start out with your name– ROBINSON: Just go for it? CARBAJAL: Birth.. parents.. ROBINSON: Sure! my name is Richard Robinson and I my parents are Kathleen Certell (sp?) and Brian Robinson.. ... I have 3 siblings.. a half older sister named Christina, whose 30, my younger brother– first younger brother is Robert, hes twenty.. four, and then my YOUNGER younger brother is 7.. had another kid after the divorce.. and I’m 26 and hopefully I got through there ... (to Samantha) again, just going through the schpeil? CARBAJAL: Yeah! ROBINSON:Does that work okay? CARBAJAL: However you feel comfortable ROBINSON: I knew.. for certain, that I was gay and that I knew what that was, when I was thirteen. But, when I was 5 years old, I remember I, I kissed a boy’s hand, like I had seen in all those Disney movies.. Page 1 �[pause] and when I.. finally found out what that was–what that meant–it was a 2 step process to me understanding what my life was gonna be.. It was, first, it was... ‘wow.. I’m gay’ and then immediately after that it was, “ohhh shit. I’m GAY.” So now I understood I was a part of this ‘group’ of people.. that would .. that face.. being ostricized.. and every time someone says that’s ‘bad’ or that’s ‘db’, they immediately say that’s ‘gay’ or ‘your a faggot’ and immediately that.. affected me.. like now I knew I was that thing that everyone was using to degrade other things... and between the ages of 13 to 17, when I finally came out, officially, I don’t remember much.. there’s.. just this blur of depression and everything that sucked... I remember the.. the really bad times. I don’t remember really any good times. unless they happened frequently, and then, they, they really didnt. I was going to come out at 16 years old. but that was the year my parents were going through with the divorce.. and.. when I heard that that was going to happen, I decided to stay in the closet another year.. pause.. and I told my mom after that was finalized the next ser.. about three days before my 17th birthday.. pause.. and just before my senior year of high school.. [clears throat] I got lucky in that in that senior year I didn’t LOSE any friends necessarily.. people started to look at me funny.. and .. but largely I was avoided.. and people didn’t mess with me anymore. I don’t know why, but they didn’t. I was severely bullied all through school before that year, then that last year when I came out and suddenly things got better somehow and i really don’t understand why. I– after high school Clarkston High School, [cough] I went to Oakland Community College in Auburn Hills where my GPA immediately jumped 1.4 points, from a 2.1 to a 3.5.... and in two years there, got my Associates of the Arts.. took anthropology and philosophy classes, computer programming everything I could grab.. to just.. fulfil the macro agreement and get my.. my gen. eds waved wherever I went to school.. and I heard about Grand Valley through a friend.. it looked like a calm, nice campus.. whereas I saw my sister go to MSU where I saw nothing but couch burnings.. riots.. and .. late night drunk calls from her attending keggers.. it wasn’t exactly the environment I was looking for for higher education... So I applied to Grand Valley, got in, I did a major here in undergrad for philosophy and anthropology.. in 3 years.. with an associates degree, so 5 years total for undergrad.. after that I–after that graduation I .. I was an archeologist for the forest service.. in Stanislows (sp?) National Forest.. which is.. a surrounding Groveland, California.. just ohh.. about 100, 200 miles in, not very far in from Nevada. Really close to the border.. right next to Yosemite.. and then I lived in San Francisco for a while! working in a publisher, then that fell through, and I moved to North Carolina where I worked as a bartender at various bars, restaurants, and strip clubs.. in North Carolina... that was fun.. af.. after that I.. found my way back to Michigan on on very little.. I had a car, that was falling to pieces.. it was duct taped together in 3 places.. .. by end.. I stayed with friends.. bounced around.. used tax return to pay rent for 2 months til i found a job at a milk factory.. lost that after a few months tried coming back to school.. didn’t work out.. got a job door to door and then 3 days before grad school started, my first semester of grad school, I got my letter of acceptance. that i was in. that that was wednesday.. on thursday i signed up for cla–I got financial aid. On Friday I signed up for classes and on monday night I was in class. my life has been by the seat of my pants, many times, but nothing says it more than 3 to 4 grad schools when I got in.. and I’m studying public administration, with an emphasis in non profit management and leadership.. so thats the general timeline of my life and education so far.. and the education really sticks out because I’m still in school! I’m 26 years old but I’ve been in school for 6 or 7 times as long as I’ve been out of school but going back.. a couple of things really stick out about being in the closet.. couple of things. One was when I was 15, about to turn 16.. [pause] same ser my parents- I think if was the Page 2 �same ser my parents decided to get the divorce, might have been the year before. So that might- would have been when I was.. about to turn 15, I was probably 14 years old, about to turn 15, I was at a Certell (sp?) family reunion. From my mom’s side, and I was .. a snot-nosed nerd at the time, and I had just gotten a new *cough+ video game.. a new thing.. and I brought the, the ‘game manual’ with me to the, to the.. reunion. I just wanted something to do with it, I didn’t want to be there, I wanted to be at home, playing. And so I brought the, the manual along. And its this.. dungeon crawling, demon slaying, thing.. so the, the pictures are pretty.. demonic.. in their art work, its pretty.. the classic, evil sense of Dante’s Inferno kind of thing, in the imagery. my great uncle Val, my mom’s uncle, comes over.. and he sees me in a black shirt, long-ish hair, reading this thing and he asks me if he, you know, if he could see that.. and he does, he takes it, and he looks ,WHAT- And then he goes ‘okay’ and he walks off, and apparently what he did was he went over to my mother, and he started describing this time how he and his church friends got together and got this kid who dressed in all black from the local high school. He might have been a relative or he might have been someone they knew, I don’t know. And they performed an exorcism on him.. sort of an ‘ad hoc’ exorcism.. and he offered my mother the same service. And at the time it was hilarious. Cause you know its just so ridiculous to me that he would do this. But later, upon reflection, I realized that that could have been so much worse had people known at that reunion that I was homosexual. and that scared me. And I suppose those are the things that keep people in the closet.. is that if you were out, and people knew, how much worse could it be? you know like, how lucky you are at times to be hiding. Cause otherwise you could’ve- I could’ve been in some bad situations, in high school and other times, even around family.. it could’ve been bad.As for Grand Valley, I never really had any bad experiences here.. except to say that I’ve been sneered at by Christian groups on campus sometimes.. kind of after well one I confronted the 7th Day Adventist group, so that was.. [laughs] that was fun.. but also, while walking between the blue arch, and the and in front of the arboret I was walking by one day with my silver bag that I had a pride thing on, and it was a- there were people around a table so I went over to see what was going on and I was like “oh, Christian group.. oooh don’t want anything to do with that!” Then the guy was like “nooo come on over!” and I was like “oh well alright” and I turned and I.. like the badge.. showed at him and the look he gave me was that of utter disgust was like alright yeah, made the right decision, I won’t go talk to those people. I’ll stay away from them, they don’t like me. I’ve gotten off quite lucky.. in my coming out experience. I didn’t lose anybody, I’ve never been the subject of violence, I’ve never been.. confronted, or torn down for it, not really anyway. There’s a couple of vague instances I almost remember but they’re not REALLY clear about what was going on anymore. .. and so I think one time I was I was having an argument with my sister, and I think there response to me, was something just to just shut me up was “Well at least I’m going to heaven.” and I believe that was a response to me being .. gay at the time. I think that’s what it was.. I couldn’t be certain.. but I didn’t spend the night at my house that night. I went to a friends house and stayed there. my good friend Tony. So, those kinds of things sort of stick out but I don’t really know if she, if she was saying that. I can’t say for sure, I believe she was, because I don’t know anything else that, within her strange theology, that that would cause her to say that to me. She’s since grown up a little bit, but... its still painful... So thatsCARBAJAL: So how did your parents react? Page 3 �ROBINSON: I told my mother after the divorce. I told her, and [recalls quickly something unintelligible] ..yeah because I told her, and then she told my dad during the divorce. That was kind of manipulative, I don’t know exactly why she did that.. other than she’s just a blabbermouth and told EVERYBODY. You know, once I told her then *snaps+ “oh off to the family!” Everybody knew. Her brothers, sisters, grandmy grandparents... everybody. and ... I sort of function the same way.. I, I don’t know how to react to things sometimes, so I tell the story to other people and see how they react. Just like to be sure I’ve gotten it correctly. [laughs] I get that trait from her.. But I di-didn’t talk to my dad about it for.. about 5 years... 5-6 years.. cause I didn’t talk to him about it til before I, until just before I went to California which was about 4 years ago.. yeah so about 6 years between telling my mom and talking to my dad about it, even though he knew.. and what I what I’m angry about still and what I haven’t really forgiven her for is that she took away my ability to talk to him about it. If I had gotten to break the ice with it and tell him, I could’ve done it. But it hanging over us now, being held over us, by like the .. it was something neither of us wanted to bring up. And so we were both sort of waiting for the other one to. So we had a.. a.. an okay relationship.. as much as you can.. being a kid, going through a divor- go, going through a parent’s divorce and blaming the one for it. Everybody in my family blamed my dad.. and I don’t really care anymore, but at the time it still was difficult to talk to them. Its not easy. and .. and if I could have, could’ve pressured myself into bringing it up and saying it so it just took telling and it would’ve, it would’ve happened like that, but I couldn’t do that because it was taken away from me. So it wasn’t a bad reaction.. it was unfortunate, and .. it wasn’t as good as it could’ve been. And a few things when wrong, but not so wrong that I was kicked out of my home. or so wrong that I lost family, or that I don’t talk to anybody anymore, but nope I still have everybody. Generally it took them a while to get over it. It takes them a while to get over the black thought that this one of their children isn’t going to provide them grand kids. There’s that. CARBAJAL: And you said you were.. bullied? ROBINSON: YeahCARBAJAL: Like throughout school? ROBINSON: Very badly, terribly, .. in middle school one day, ... people were handing out dollar bills for everybody who punched me.. they were PAYING others to hit me in the arm, through the halls of the school. And I never saw oh- and the only reason I knew that was happening was because, someone told me. So I don’t know how much money changed hands or exactly what happened, I just remember I got punched a lot in the arm in that hallway that day. CARBAJAL: And that was just becauseROBINSON: Just because! *claps+ just because I don’t know, they got a reaction outta me.. cause I cried.. I don’t really know. But .. my right arm specifically got punched a lot.. through middle school. And when I found out- that was spurred on the, when I found out that I was ge- that this needs to be not talked about. It just needs to be hidden as much as possible. .. and to never.. never ever mention it.. and it was actually kind of easy because I was a, I’m a.. a.. a bit of a nerd I hung out with people who were already ostracized.. were already not part of any ‘in’ group.. who were al- who were connected by the Page 4 �commonality of being out of other cliques and out of other groups of people. And so that made it easier to hide.. cause then I could just be seen as awkward. If I was just seen as awkward, people wouldn’t think, “Oh he’s not straight.” They would just think, “Oh he’s an awkward nerd..” And they did! And it worked. It wasn’t on purpose, that was just a fortunate thing.. and once I was surrounded by other people, the.. bullying kind of let up in high school, but not really.. Anytime where I could be isolated was a chance for me to get something, from somebody.. whether it was being jumped on.. in gym, people were jumping on my back and trying to... essentially ride my back. That happened a couple of times, in gym class. Or we were just looking for a way to be the funny guy at my expense. sss- looking at it from now it probably the character of most of it- someone looking to be the funny guy on my expense. CARBAJAL: And that all got better after you came out? Did it let up a little? ROBINSON: Yeah.. somewhat? I think some of it was.. I finally.. grew up.. and out.. and nearly 6 feet tall, rather broad shouldered.. you know.. I was just so- I was just physically larger than many other people who were bullying me before. And so I think that at least a little bit intimidated them. And.. I had lashed out a few times. its, it was, its tough in schools when they, when they have no.. no tolerance policies.. for fighting.. or for cursing of any sort. its just if your seen doing this you either get suspended or expelled. But when the bullying is subversive, and its minor, and button pushing.. they don’t need to be loud.. to get at you. They don’t need to be noticeable to make it affective. But the, inevitably, the boiling over, the lashing out, the.. the steam from the kettle.. That is always loud. The person who is finally- they’ve been pushed too far and need to lash out a little bit. I once flipped a kid out of my .. seat, in Japanese class, because it was MY seat, next to MY friend and.. he was not there for any good reason. And so I flipped the desk over and leaned in really close and told him to fuck off. And.. incidences like that, where I was able to do those things.. to provide enough of a physical presence that I shouldn’t be messed with on certain levels. That was more protective than anything else. People only mess with you to the point where they think that you won’t fight back. As soon as you do, they, they let off. But, the person who’s fighting back has to.. be just as subversive or just as quiet about it, as the other way. So I think theres this underground of.. of barely restrained violence at times. In in when you’re being bullied, theres just, you really, you want to! You want to get it to stop, whatever it takes to get it to stop. Cause those years, between 13 and 17 I was near suicidal. I didn’t want to go out, I didn’t wanna be around people, I... [pause] I did things just to keep up appearances but there were multiple incidences where .. again the bad things are all that I remember, where I just.. I was close. I was close to the edge. And the only thing that kept me from it was I knew that it would hurt my family and friends more than if they knew I was a homosexual. That would be a greater pain, and a burden, than, than knowing. And that was it. That was the only thing that kept me from it. Wasn’t hope for a brighter future, wasn’t thinking that my life would get better later on.. It was only that I would cause more pain by not being here., Than than I would be, than I am suffering myself. I didn’t want to inflict that on anyone else. So I, I took it as my ‘cross to bare’ so to speak. And I didn’t burden anyone else with it and it didn’t let on. But that’s just the same, psychological environment. The same state to be in, that brings people to suicide.. and that makes people lash out. Like I did in high school. I wish somebody had put the pieces together, but nobody ever did. When I came out it was a surprise to everybody. Everybody knew I was depressed but they didn’t know why. They didn’t know what for.. they had no idea to even ask! Which is stupid, because if you look back at a photo album of me, from the ages of like 5 to 17, 80% Page 5 �of my pictures are of me standing in jazz hands, or with one foot up on its toe.. or something what you would consider pretty homosexual, pretty gay at the time. But I don’t know.. I don’t know what people thought of me.. I just, I can’t see that they couldn’t have known something.. cause looking now I know I wasn’t that good of hiding it. CARBAJAL: When did it start to get better? Like your life right now? ROBINSON: It was mildly better in college. I tried to get in touch with the LGBT community here. didn’t work out. It was still kind of cliquish. It was still kinda the same mentality that kept me ostracized in high school. Here’s the “in” group that I’m not part of right now and becoming part of it’s very difficult. And it…and my undergrad experience was not what I was hoping it was going to be but it was at least filled with studying something I really love studying. I am, to my core, a philo philosopher and anthropologist. studier of the human condition like those are what I care about and I’m going through nonprofit work cause I wanna do something about it. And, that’s, that really informs my professional career, my my future, and what I wanna do with my life, but that’s all instead of really having any meaningful relationships or friendships with the gay community and undergrad. Very few. Very few if any. and just looking for something, some way to connect with the people in my own community. I, cause that was my, my jump out to California. I had family who lived in North Bay. Which is Corte Madera. So San Fransisco’s on the end of a peninsula and the bay curves the whole thing. So North Bay is the, the area directly across the Golden Gate Bridge. That’s where my family lived. My uncle’s an architect. I lived with them for a few months and I got a job at that publisher and I lived in San Fransisco…and it and all I knew is that was the A gay epicenter in the United States. That was a place I could go where I didn’t even havet, where no one would bat an eye. That my existence was what I wanted. And it, and it worked. It was, it was good for a time. I, I really. I hated leaving there, but I had to cuz I couldn’t afford it. I was trying to live in a city like that for under $30,000 a year. It was impossible. Like I couldn’t keep it up. Had to leave. And, I dreamt about that city for every night for a good six months. Every night was the same dream. I was back. That’s how much of an impact it was. And it wasn’t until just now in grad school that things finally really took off. In in being a peer in the community, in the group and being part of it. And I don’t know why that is. I don’t know if that was just the people I was trying to get in touch with in undergrad, if I was just not ready for it. If I was just too much of the awkward nerd to be part of it or not but, I guess that means I’m a late bloomer of some sort but I’m just happy it’s working out now. CARBAJAL: What like type of experiences made San Francisco so great for you? ROBINSON: Castro is in interesting place (said with laughter). There’s a bit of a small history about San Francisco. In the 1940’s, the navy discharged every soldier, it was every sailor it found to be homosexual, into the port of San Francisco. That is why during the subsequent fifties and sixties there was such a large uprising of gay men in San Francisco. There is not a large group of gay women in San Francisco, it doesn’t exist. There are some who are natives but it’s not as if gay women and lesbians are flocking to San Francisco. They never did. Gay men did…because there was already a large population of them there and they took over what was an Irish Catholic neighborhood, the Castro. And, that became the epicenter of everything. Of Harvey milk, of of the LGBT rights movement of California that, that because of a policy in the Navy is why that’s there. Jump to 2008, 2009, when I’m trying to move there, when I’m trying to live there, I’m 23 years old and…much too young for it. Twenty years too young to really be Page 6 �part of that community in that city. The young community of homosexuals there isn’t very vibrant because the exodus stopped there many years ago. As fabulous as the city is, it’s an amazing place. It’s not the same gay epicenter that it once was. But just because it was there made things better, walking down the street and having every lamppost rainbow flag on it. Walking down another street and have it covered in leather pride flags. Gay men’s community at least has subdivided itself into many subsequent smaller communities and they all have their own flag of a sort. The leather one is a red heart with black, white, and blue stripes on it and that’s on Fuller Street I believe they have a leather parade there of guys in leather chaps and harnesses and like leather biker caps all covered in studs. It’s kinda the idea. And it’s just because that place is so diverse even within the gay community there, that made it more welcoming. But the problems were it could be reduced to a series of dance clubs and meat markets so to speak. And, outside of that there wasn’t much more of political solidarity and there wasn’t much for me trying to find any … common interests groups to join with. Those just weren’t there anymore. But you could still go to the Castro on a Saturday night and find people walking around naked. That’s just how the part of the city worked. There were they had apparently passed ordinances where public nudity in the areas were were allowed and…people made use of it. So every weekend, it didn’t matter how cold it was outside, that’s the thing you could find. And that’s sort of freeing to see, but none of it was what I expected. And so it got a little better just because it was easy to be out and not worry about it, but it was still alien. It was still strange. It was still not what I was expecting. And that’s been, that’s been a theme for me. That’s been something that’s been pretty constant. A lot of things, I come across a lot of groups I try to become part of are alien to me and strange and I don’t understand them quite. And it’s partially because I hold myself apart from them but also because I don’t really thing they’re as welcoming as they think they are. Of other people. CARBAJAL: Is that the same, like when you went to North Carolina and.. ROBINSON: North Carolina just sucked. I went to North Carolina because my mother and sister were living there and I could crash at their houses for a few months. And I was in North Carolina for nine months total. six months in Winston-Salem, the home of cigarettes in this country. Winston Cigarettes Salem, yeah. Winston-Salem. And then just outside of Charlotte in Matthews, North Carolina and I hated it. I hated every minute of it. I’m never living there again. I don’t get along with my sister well, and to get outta there my mother ended up giving me that shitty car, buying herself a new one, and said “just go, just take your stuff and leave, just get outta here there’s nothing for you here.” I didn’t have a job anymore, I didn’t have anything I could cling to. The only reason I could be there because my family was there and we weren’t getting along well anyway so the only option was to just leave. And I did. And I took a really big risk coming back to Michigan. The unemployment rate was worse here, and I didn’t have any plans for graduate school at the time. I didn’t know I was gonna be in grad school til two months before the semester started. That’s why I applied, and my, and and it worked. I don’t know why (said with laughter) I’m glad it did, I’m doing well but…that’s everything since undergrad has been by the seat of my pants. Taking risks and trying to make things work out. Some of them have some of them haven’t. San Francisco didn’t and I ended up in North Carolina, and so I really hope grad school works out because I don’t know where I’ll end up if this one doesn’t. No, no gay community to be spoken of at all in North Carolina that I could find. Charlotte didn’t have anything for bars that were consistent, they were always closing down and opening up so there was no place that I could really depend on to go. I Page 7 �didn’t go anywhere cuz I was also out of money. And up in Winston-Salem there was one which was a really bad. It wasn’t any good. It was always empty. But it was huge. It was just a, was just a gigantic empty space and no one was ever there. So there was no way for me to meet anybody. Do anything. CARBAJAL: So it’s when you came back up here that you started meeting people and getting involved? ROBINSON: I, came back here and I reconnected with some old friends asked if they were still at Grand Valley. And I found that the LGBT community here had grown significantly. That there was two new student groups, that what once was the women’s center here became the LGBT resource center. This used to be the women’s center. These three rooms here. And that we colloquially developed what we call the “queer corner.” Where that, where that piano used to be if you remember that circle of chairs and couches out there . There’s a group of us that are in the student groups and otherwise who are all who are 90% of us are part of the LGBT community in some way. A few people, three or four, out of the 20 or so that show up, aren’t. And so we’ve called it the queer corner because that’s our “space.” We’ve claimed it. We needed a space to be where we could be a community, be a group of friends and not worry about people harassing us. Cuz once we were in a big group like that, we were left alone. Nobody bothers us, no one’s ever come in a confronted us over there. There were stories of a couple of of people coming over there and reading really loudly, the passages of the Bible that condemn homosexuality and talking about them around us. As if to say, we know you and we object to you because our Bible tells us so. But I didn’t see any of that. And, had I seen it I would have confronted them. But, that’s been the bigger part, is having a space for the LGBT student population that we’ve claimed as our own. Has been probably the most helpful. And there’s two rules to the queer corner, unspoken rules, one everyone’s generally welcome but no hate speech. Hate speech at all of any sort against any group of people is not tolerated and you will be ostracized and kicked out of there cuz we’ve all gone through it and we’re never going through it again. Especially not for some jackass who just thinks it’s funny to come over and do that. CARBAJAL: You say you had problems with the SDA activists? Seventh-day Adventists? ROBINSON: I went up and I confronted, I was a philosophy student and I had no idea who the Adven who the Seventh-day Adventists were. But I knew enough of Christian theology that I could place them in the splintering history of Christian churches and I went in there and I specifically asked them what their views on homosexuality were and they told me. And all hate the sin not the sinner. Well, great but I really don’t think you guys understand what your words mean when you say that because you are in fact hating on the sinner when you say that. That’s the point. That’s how words work. You know, that how you make sin into a noun of somebody who performs it. Is to call them the sinner in the first place. they didn’t quite understand that and I just walked away. I was just trying to be there, philosophically challenge them on and just decided not to in the end. CARBAJAL: Besides the LGBT like center here, was there anyone that really supported you? ROBINSON: I never had a problems in the academic departments of any of my teachers. Generally everybody knew. I was pretty open about it and . I got left alone about it in those classes. And but . For actively supporting me? Not really. I tried being part of the student groups but again I didn’t feel, not Page 8 �necessarily not welcome just not part of it, and what friends I did have here I knew some of them from high school. I followed a friend here and his name was Carl. He was a good friend of mine. Who he would become my roommate was when we moved off-campus and we went through anthropology together. And he’s still actually serving in that same forest as an archaeologist that I served in. He keeps going back ser after ser and he’s slowly becoming a federal employee. But, no support groups here. I even count Milt Ford, the man who started the resource center. I spoke to him a few times in his office in the Liberal Studies Department over in Lake Ontario. But again, that’s part of the resource center he started, so other than that no there wasn’t much. CARBAJAL: Are there any activities that you yourself like. Civil rights movements or anything that you participated in? ROBINSON: (with a smile) I was in San Francisco when Proposition 8 passed for California. And Prop 8 was the anti-gay marriage amendment to the state constitution in that state. And so I got to be part of a march there against it you know, 10-15,000 people walking down market street. Walking from Dubous Park to the city hall. But it was, it was very strange. I we were following the this group. And the person at the head of it apparently when we got to the park, the first stop, was this very large golden drag queen. Gold hair, makeup, dress, all of it. And every other word out of her mouth was community. “How dare these people come into our community and hate on our community”, “we need to stand up as a community, and fight for our community, against the oppression against our community”. Like just repeating the same word to drive home the community part for some reason over and over and over again. And, then one of the local bars had brought a generator and a dj stand and a small dance party began. And I just thought that was, it was absolutely absurd. You’re going to have this political march here and at the end this is what we see? A dance party? Now partly you can see that this was a plan to be celebrating the defeat of Prop 8 as it won only by three points. You know less than the standard error in a poll for for politics was how much it won by so it coulda swung the other way. Not a very big margin. And so there was just this weird sense in San Francisco where Barrack Obama just won, this person that San Francisco absolutely loved and voted for in some crazy 90%. But then Prop 8 passed, and everyone’s going “what do we do?” “How do we handle this? How do we deal with this?” And part of the answer was just go on as the party had. And the chanting the things that had happened at that time were kind of half-hearted. Out of the bars into the streets, out of the bars into the streets and all the old-timers in the bars are goin “whatever, we’ve been defeated before this is just another defeat on the notch”. “It’s another notch on the headboard who cares?” It’s just strange to witness and but other than that for civil rights I mean there’s not that much I’ve been personally involved in. I’d like to have been but I was just always in the wrong place at the wrong time. I was never around it when it was happening cuz some of it’s pretty organic. I was never part of the groups that were starting it. You know part of being an outsider in many ways is that you don’t get to be part of these things because no one’s you don’t have any social connection to it. You know you can say well you just go out and do it anyway if you don’t have social connections there that is making social connections. Yeah, well how many people hadn’t had been at protests alone just because they went there and not with four or five friends that they want that they dragged along. How many people who are there aren’t being supported by anybody else they know and are just alone without anyone else in the crowd that they know? I, I doubt that happens much. I, I bet people are there in groups already made and coming together with other groups Page 9 �of people under that same banner. But since I wasn’t part of that in many ways around when many things were happening I didn’t get to be part of it. Because I would just feel awkward and alone and strange and separated again. CARBAJAL: Do you have any heroes like who conducted these movements, anyone you look up to for doing it? ROBINSON: Go Harvey Milk, good for him being the first elected openly gay politician in the country. Elected city commissioner of San Francisco sometime, I don’t remember the dates. I don’t much have, no, haha Barney Frank. That guy’s cool. senator of Massachusetts. first openly gay senator, I believe, and who was outted during a scandal and kept office through it and stayed there. But he’s also my political hero for what he tries to do in terms of senate in terms of finance for the country. There’s might not be any too many people that I’d look up to as as leaders of the gay community right now. There’s not many, and it- the only times there have been where when the pressure against us has has been so great that one person could rise above it (two women talking in the background) and be seen publicly. And that’s part of the legend of some like cardinal who was an assassinated city commissioner. who was assassinated by some other commissioner. Him along with the mayor, so there’s a story that’s come up a-around that but… because one the one thing that keeps the LGBT community together is the similarity in our impression by other people… that’s what keeps us together,(someone in the background putting something in the microwave) because if you look you look at groups of older gay men and lesbians, they don’t want anything to do with each other, (a couple of people walk into the room and start talking) the common goal, because were treated similarly.. (someone in the background putting something in the microwave) and without that it’s hard to (some papers crumpled in the background) being organize us, there isn’t a collective experience, there sort of is but not really, everyone’s story is unique, being because were the random minority we show up everywhere we show up in every other minority group we show up in every other group of people, were there, this one thing about who we fall in love with and have romance with and have sex with that that’s are one guiding connection (two ladies talking in the background) its very tenuous when you compare with other civil rights groups I don’t think it’s as strong as the connecting thing in the black community in the united states. First, because their impression first was something else entirely and it’s still very real, too many of them… I wish there was more. And I’m really happy for the victories that we have been getting, but it’s so splintered (microwave beeping) when viewed from within that it’s hard to say even organizations that are doing good work cause you think the human rights campaign with some fantastic organization but you could look at the criticism of it from within its not it’s not you know john salnees the current president of the human rights people that yellowy quality signs them, they’re just a gala organization, they throw on big gala fundraisers so they can throw more *clap* big gala fundraisers so they can pay money to people *clap* who won’t give us everything we want. There is just this test they are going to support the Democratic Party and fundraise for them through the gay community and they’re not actually doing very many good works. That’s what we see more of than strong leaders, we see a lot of splintered groups and people doing things for their own local communities but not any large individuals that are taking charge, so it be hard for me to say that there’s many heroes. CARBAJAL: Now today, what are—you’re a spokesperson? Or you speak to your people about? Page 10 �ROBINSON: I *chuckles* perform public therapy ha-ha, even being here telling this story of mine telling what I’ve been through, and what my fears were all makes it easier to deal with than it was before I had done that and so every time I go do a- analyze an advocates training or I can do anything for the-for this organization, it makes me just feel a little better about it. And so I just say I’ve always engaging in open therapy for it, because talking about it and getting it out in the open makes it easier because sunlight’s the best disinfectant. So those emotional scars and that pain (someone getting situated in their chair) I’ve been through is a little bit lessened every time. It’s like a small pain killer, and as if if I keep taking them maybe it will go away completely some day. So this isn’t really to bring people over to my side or get them to understand, this is just more for my own benefit, that…This makes my life easier, doing these things and being open about it. CARBAJAL: Who have you talked to? Like what types of groups and people? ROBINSON: No like I said before the tape recorder was on, I spoke to Greek guys and advocates I’ve done faculty staff, a couple this year and a couple last year I’ve done others for general student body I’m also the treasurer for out n about right now the LGBT community group on campus now, so well I wasn’t part of the community before I am now ‘cause I’m trying to run the organization, at least the money side. And *claps twice*… I think that’s it, I think that’s what I’ve done. And so I’m grabbing every opportunity I can to do these things, just ‘cause ….. Want to… makes me feel better. CARBAJAL: That’s good… for when you present to professors and things like that do you just tell-talk about your life experiences? ROBINSON: Yeah there’s a general spiel I give out, there’s many- it’s certainly much shorter than the one I gave earlier here It includes the when I found out, my first experience when I was five… the times I’ve butt up against the religious organizations, including my great uncle, the student groups here… and how my time at grand valley has been. because that’s the focus of those things, is telling them how my time at grand valley has been and how it could be better, and there has been some pushback against my … people have seem to be as anti religious stances and anti religious organizations stances I’ve had and there’s Benjamin minor but it’s there and I tell them that were the ones that were victimized, it’s understandable for us to be on the defensive and for us to not exactly be open to people coming to that stance, trying to help us, it was about 30-40 years ago that we were still being tortured by the Mormon church with electro shock therapy. And we are still currently being hunted down and killed in other religious countries around the world so it’s not like it’s my fault that I have a (two woman start talking in the background) negative opinion of it in general. CARBAJAL: So what types of things are you doing, like today, with the LGBT are your trying to control money aspect of? ROBINSON: I supposed to run the fundraisers I hold the card in my name and the advisors name I’m just the treasurer you know as much student groups, as much their as officers stick to their roles, it’s just really my name is just on the paper is doing that, I don’t think there’s anything- there’s nothing specifically that I do as treasurer that nobody else couldn’t do, other than I have to sign the receipts, Page 11 �but you know it’s a student organization account it’s not very big, it’s not something that’s *chuckles* ever a problem that I couldn’t keep track of and do. CARBAJAL: What types of fundraisers are there? ROBINSON: We haven’t done any! Ha-ha we’re working on it, as a student organization. It’s again the seed of our pants *chuckles* If you have ever been part of an undergrad organization they’re not exactly the most well run things on campus… Yeah. CARBAJAL: What types of- where would the money go for the fundraiser? ROBINSON: What we do is every spring, we buy and hand out free t-shirts, for national coming out day, April 15th, but we put on the closest Wednesday, to it. No National day of silence what it was national day of silence. And we cycle through the rainbow colors on our t-shirts and we ask organizations to be co-sponsors and we offer them a space—a name their name on the back of our shirts as being a supporting organization for whatever donation they can give us to buy whatever t-shirts and we get them .. I think last year we got them for… a few dollars each. Some really small amount we got 151 tshirts for 700 dollars 600 dollars something like that? That’s like 4 dollars a shirt somewhere around there? I don’t remember. That’s where the bulk of our fundraising money goes to, is to doing that, the rest of it we just run through the school we ask the school to pay for whatever we want, they do. CARBAJAL: You just hand out the shirts or do you have an event? ROBINSON: Yeah we hand them out, no we hand them out. We try and say group members first but that’s what they show up first. You know, Last year was our smallest handout 150 we usually hand out 300, 400 get up to the cost of 1200 dollars of t-shirts. We found a pretty good group to go through last year, and they’re willing to cut down the price by allowing them to put their logo on it and also to … they give us a discount on the cost per shirt because they’re like supporting the organization, the events like that… It was Ann Arbor t-shirt company that did that for us I drove out and picked up the shirts myself. And it’s a good time. CARBAJAL: Are there any other events that they do too? ROBINSON: We did we do an amateur drag show every fall that was just a few weeks ago, we had bout 2-300 people in attendance up in the Pere Marquette room. Ha very small cramped space filled with people. And it was a huge hit. We got a bunch of our students able to put on drag and walk on a runway and back… and we have a door we call it’s our closet door and put a rainbow flag over it, walk through it and stuff. It’s this this fun little metaphor thing they get to come out (two woman talking in the background) in then they’re in drag and they do the runway walk. We partner with a Transpectr, the transgender support group on campus and we do that for national transgender day of remembrance. We do a candle light a (someone opens the door) visual form out around the clock tower, we put on a pride prom in the spring were we provide the LGBT students (people in the background talking) who didn’t necessarily get the chance to be at prom the way they wanted to in high school, we give them the new chance to do it how how they would like.. here. And then day of silence those are our four major things we do. Then other than that we put on education pieces for them community keeping people up to do date on the current political situations we find ourselves (someone slams the door) as well as Page 12 �doing general outings. We’re going to a an orchard this weekend, to have a big gay hay ride where we’re going to freak out some farm owners ha-ha, by coming and being flamboyant as possible on their hayride and there corn maze, eat cider and donuts and do a very Michigan thing for the fall together. The organization is really just is just for that, keeping the community together and keeping us visible on campus making sure people know that gay people are here and that were part of this campus. CARBAJAL: Is there anything that you want to like to see the group do? Like any strides, specifically? ROBINSON: I would like the group to have a specific way, (he moves in his chair) a specific program that it does in the early fall semester to get in touch with the incoming freshman and incoming transfer students and let them know that we exist and let them know that support is here and give them the information they need to get in touch with all of it. Because frankly the the student life night isn’t good enough… people in the closet… aren’t that social, to go up to a big gathering like that, that public and it is so to approach a table for- covered in rainbows and about the LGBT community here, that makes us that would make me nervous had I been in the closet and seen that, I would not have approached it and I get the same response when I ask the people in the group, would have you approached a table surrounded by the student body in general which was presenting as a LGBT organization and they say no. we need a way to get in touch and show the kids who may be closeted who are coming in to the first time to a a 4-year university and show them that we’re there. And that we can be used as a support group and that we can be used as a safe place and that were a safe group of people that you can finally be yourself with… And but finding the means to do that’s difficult, do we do it with just an ad campaign were we just put out flyers everywhere and pluggers and point to that you don’t have to be out to join us… you know something like saying something like that you don’t have to come out to be a part of this community, please please join us. So the we got to find a way to be visible, and present and friendly without exposing ‘cause that’s the greatest fear when you’re in the closet and when you’re in that place is being exposed and seen. On something other than your own terms, coming out can be fantastic as long as it’s on your own terms. It’s not on anybody else’s terms ‘cause those are usually bad. So we need to find a way to be that resource…and specifically because I don’t want to see an LGBT student be the one found at the bottom of the ravine one year, because nearly every year I was here as undergrad there’s someone that has jumed off that bridge between Mackinac and the lake halls and there’s enough of a precedent of suicide in the LGBT community that I don’t want to see happen here on our campus. Last year with that group of those 5 or 6 LGBT kids who killed themselves rapid succession last fall, there has been a couple this year that gotten national attention but… it shouldn’t happen here, not when we have this not when we have three student groups and I want us to be seen more for that,(someone talking and moving in their chair in the background) I want people to know who out n about is, I want them to know what it’s for and I wanted us to be recognized almost invariably by the campus because we’re so visible… But that’s a long term goal, and I don’t know if I’m able to complete it, I hope I can just lay the seeds for it while I’m here. But I don’t I won’t be part of the—I’ll be graduating next year before maybe before the next school year starts so I won’t be a part of whatever, they’re doing… next year. Not just I hope I get them to do this while I’m gone. CARBAJAL: Will you ever come back? And see how it’s going? Page 13 �ROBINSON: Oh I’ll be in grand rapids, but… but grand valley will no longer have a program for me to take I will have gone as far as I can in my education at grand valley I can’t do a PhD here because they don’t have it for my program. There is no other masters I’d like to get, because I don’t want to get a second masters it’s pointless. I have one, I don’t need another… and… I don’t know, I’d like to think that I could to stay in grand rapids I’m going into non-profit work in grand rapids is the second largest center for philanthropy in the country, by GDP and so it’s possible? But that’s large because of Bandandels and the other big rich Dutch families in the area… and everybody has to get my resume. you know I left Michigan before for the same reason I couldn’t get a job here, and I had a job somewhere else, so if I send my resume out to every government agency I’d like to work for every non-profit foundation whichever I’d like to work for in the country, I have to be ready to move. You know if I’m willing to go off and work with the consulting firm, I’ll be sent around the country, I’ll be out. I’ll be off consulting, working with people and who knows how large the geographic area? I would love to stay in Grand Rapids, I just I can’t say if I will or not, it’s unfortunate but it’s true. CARBAJAL: Is there anything el-anything else that you wish happens with, anybody that needs to come out or? ROBINSON: I would like to hope that it the the what’s the bad things that happen to you I would like that to even out across the LGBT groups. Right now we’re four times as likely to attempt to suicide growing up. Than just your average teenager where one in four of us get kicked out of our homes and we come out before we’re independent of our parents and thus we account for 60-70% of homeless youth in this country so what I would like to hope is for those numbers to go down. That your not longer 1 in four are kicked out 1 in 5, 1 in 6 and up to none, are kicked out for it. And I would like to hope that Grand Rapids continues to grow and gets better at it, because right now it’s pretty good for what you’d think about a west Michigan city, grand rapids is pretty good, it’s got four gay bars which is incredible that there’s the economy could sustain four of them… and there’s a few friendly gay churches, good. As much as I don’t want to be a part of them, good I’m glad they’re there, ‘cause I can’t speak for all of us. And so yeah Grand Rapids is good, it’s getting better hope it continues to get better, and I hope all of our statistics start to get lower, at least regionally but not completely. (Someone in the background moving in their chair) CARBAJAL: Is there anything else, anything more you want to share? ROBINSON: Any closing tagline any, any bit? No I think it’s depressing enough ha-ha CARBAJAL: Depressing note to end on ha-ha ROBINSON: I think that spiels, think that’s a good way to end it seriously without that end you could put it on MPR ha-ha-ha. CARBAJAL: Ok well thank you for coming ROBINSON: Thank you END OF INTERVIEW Page 14 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/199f33d3ba1eac40d2f7e9f16788f905.mp3 d9d0cdfd05971004cda4b32190a05160 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Robinson_Richard Title A name given to the resource Richard Robinson audio interview and transcript, interview 1 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Robinson, Richard Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Carbajal, Samantha Espiritu, Arianne Wilusz, Laura Description An account of the resource Richard Robinson grew up in Clarkston, MI. He attended Oakland Community College from 2003-2005 and GVSU as an undergrad from 2005-2008. His undergrad was in Philosophy and anthropology. He is now a grad student studying public administration. He discusses his activism with the LGBT community. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Gays--Personal narratives Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-10-26 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e218f46f4c29a0e281d1a98145fb3aad.m4v 31ef878c64ba2f75c6af55ed3dac293f https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/60e39d05f3fa54fdc257000177f215b6.pdf 07ad7809c34b587ad67ebe59e9e3cfe2 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans' History Project Theresa Robinson Post-Vietnam Cold War 55 minutes 47 seconds (00:00:39) Early Life -Born in Grand Rapids, Michigan on September 20, 1955 at St. Mary's Hospital -Grew up in Grand Rapids -Father was the plant supervisor for Packaging Corporation of America -Served in World War Two as a 2nd lieutenant in the Army (00:01:32) Vietnam War & Racial Conflict -Watched the news a lot while growing up -It was a big deal when they did the draft lottery on the evening news -Randomly selected a birthday, and all men born on that day were drafted -Older brother enlisted in the Navy to avoid being sent to Vietnam as a draftee -Served as a corpsman in the United States -There was racial tension in Grand Rapids -Remembers curfews at 6 PM -Remembers the racial fighting happening in downtown Grand Rapids -Went to St. Alphonsus Catholic School and Catholic Central High School -Very few minority students, but she was exposed to poor and minority people -Had no problems with poor, or non-white people (00:05:14) Enlisting in the Navy -Graduated from high school at 17 years old -Started college with the intention of becoming a nurse -Decided that that wasn't for her -Worked at Meijer and didn't enjoy it -An older sister's friend came and stayed with Theresa's family for a little while -Talked about basic training in the Navy -Impressed Theresa and persuaded her to enlsit in the Navy -Went and talked to a Navy recruiter -Signed up to take a test to get into the Navy -Encouraged to go into electronics or another math oriented duty in the Navy -Wanted to be a personnelman so she could work with people -Sworn in in Detroit -18 years old when she enlisted in the Navy -Family didn't approve of her enlisting in the Navy -Father and older brother didn't want her to join -Father felt that women didn't belong in the military -Brother didn't think the military was worth joining -Enlisted in February 1974 (00:10:05) Basic Training -Went to Naval Training Center Orlando, Florida for basic training -Men and women trained together �-Reported to Detroit to go to Florida -Mother saw her off, but her father was too emotional to see her off -Excited to start her time in the Navy -Flew down to Orlando -Sat next to a girl from the Upper Peninsula of Michigan -Greeted by a stern Naval officer -Brought to a bus and waited for more recruits -Same officer boarded the bus and barked orders at the new recruits -Took her by surprise -Arrived at the base at night -Got up at 5:30 AM the next day -Assigned to a training company -30 to 40 women in each training company -Each company shared a barracks -Competed against the other training companies -Basic training lasted nine weeks -Passed her locker inspection without any difficulties -Catholic schools prepared her for discipline and taking orders -Understood the necessity of taking orders -Some women didn't understand why they needed to take orders -One woman washed out after two weeks because she found out that she was pregnant -She was in Training Company 3104 -Had to create a flag and write a marching song for the company -Last training company to be treated like women -Didn't run because it was considered to be improper for women to run -Some of the physical training was cancelled due to the heat -Only did part of the obstacle course -Did swimming tests -Some women were afraid of the water -Did calisthenics in a gym -Learned how to properly march -Stood watch in the barracks -Night before a physical competition a jealous company commander tore apart their bunks -Jealous that Theresa's company was performing so well -Had to get their bunks and lockers organized by 6 AM, the day of the competition -Spent part of each day in classes -Learned about the Uniform Code of Military Justice and took tests on it -Learned about Navy terminology -Taught Navy rank and protocol -Made sure to salute everyone during basic training -Learned how to behave as a sailor -The week before graduating from basic training they received liberty -Had to be back to base by midnight -Went to the fanciest restaurant that they could find and had a few cocktails �-Volunteered to be a squad leader -Encountered hostility from black female recruits because she was white and Polish -Received threats -Offered protection, but she declined -Hostility came as a shock to her -Thought racial conflicts ended in the 1960s -Saw a lot of sexism in the Navy (00:24:15) Personnel School -At the end of basic training she was sent to "A" School -Stayed at Naval Training Center Orlando for that -Made sure that her contract specified two things: -The length of her enlistment -She would become a personnelman -Allowed to come and go with more freedom -Had a room and shared it with only one other female sailor -Spent nights at the Enlisted Men's Club -Learned how to type up paperwork and the proper terms to use in that paperwork -Based on memorization, so it wasn't very difficult -At the end of "A" School you filled out a "dream sheet" (where you wanted to serve) -She wound up getting assigned to San Diego -Remembers one of her choices was Spain (00:27:12) Stationed at Naval Air Station Miramar -Sent to Naval Air Station, Miramar in San Diego, California -Assigned to the Personnel Office for VF-124, a fighter plane squadron -Note: She may have been in VF-121, not VF-124 -Pilots in the squadron trained with the F-14 fighter jet -Most elite fighter jet in the military at the time -Took care of enlisted men's records -Had only one computer in the Personnel Office and only one sailor knew how to use it -Used electric typewriters for paperwork -There were seven enlisted personnel and one officer in her office -She was the newest person in the office -There were only three women and the rest were men -Had some Filipinos working in the office -They all made Polish jokes directed at her -She finally retaliated and made a Filipino joke -Got in trouble and was reprimanded for the joke -Defended herself and called out the double standard -After that the workplace environment improved -Transferred to the Student Personnel Office -Better environment -Gave tours of the base for the new personnel and helped them with any problems -Loved doing that work (00:32:31) Sexism in the Navy Pt. 1 -Didn't have a car and had to walk from her barracks to the office in her dress uniform �-Men cat called, whistled, and yelled obscenities at her -Bought a car just so she didn't have to walk from her barracks to the office -Female sailors were sent to a dance just so they could dance with male sailors -Told to go have dinner with sailors on a New Zealand ship -Didn't behave any better than the American sailors -Ordered to supervise the cleaning of the office -One of the men refused to listen to her orders -Her boyfriend (future-husband) came in and intervened on her behalf -Boyfriend was commended and she was apologized to by the commander (00:36:45) Officers -Worked with a lot of pilots -Easy going and just wanted to fly -Had one officer that was an older man and a fair man -One Master Chief got in a lot of trouble for attacking her at the Enlisted Men's Club -He later apologized to her after he sobered up (00:38:17) Reflections on Service Pt. 1 -Grew up a lot -Learned to stand her ground (00:38:28) Iranian Pilots -There were a lot of Iranian pilots at NAS Miramar when she was there -Didn't talk to the American pilots -Didn't talk to the American enlisted personnel -She asked her company commander why there were Iranian pilots on the base -They were being trained with the F-14 and being sold some of the F-14s -Weren't being sold any spare parts (00:39:47) Getting Married -Had been at NAS Miramar for about a half a year when she met her husband -Met him at the Enlisted Men's Club -He drove her to a convenience store on base to get a pack of cigarettes -He even went inside and bough them for her -Got married while they were both still on active duty (00:41:25) Sexism in the Navy Pt. 2 -Men and women lived in separate barracks -Even the women were divided based on sexuality -Straight women were on the second floor of the barracks -Lesbians were on the third floor of the barracks -Received a lot of attention from the male sailors -There were Marines on the base and one of the Marines paid a lot of attention to her -She agreed to go on a casual date and eventually had to fight her way out of his car -Marine officer learned about the incident and apologized to her -Offending Marine disappeared and was never seen again -After she got married most of the harassment faded away (00:45:37) Lost Pilots �-While at NAS Miramar two F-14s were lost in one week -Meant that four pilots were killed -The squadron mourned for two weeks -Planes had gone into a death spiral and the men ejected straight into the ground -Tragedy was made even worse because some of the men had families (00:46:35) End of Service -She signed up for a "2 by 6" enlistment -Two years of active duty -Two years of active reserve -Two years of inactive reserve -Discharged from active duty at NAS Miramar -Did her active reserve duty at NAS Miramar -Once a month on the base -Not liked by the active duty personnel because she was only active reserve -Married and pregnant at the time -Typed up her own discharge papers -Pregnant, which meant she would be discharged and never had to serve -Less than a year later her husband got out of the Navy (00:48:50) Reflections on Service Pt. 2 -It was a great experience mixed with bad experiences -Learned to understand the importance of the military -Learned more about the Vietnam War and the anti-war movement -Felt that the protestors were attacking the wrong people -Should have gone after the politicians, not the soldiers -Didn't tell people she was a veteran until later in life -Feels that politicians should be protested, but soldiers should be supported (00:50:53) Veterans' Groups -Got involved with veterans' groups when she was in her late 40s, or early 50s -Got involved with the American Legion -Became the commander of American Legion Post 258 -Still involved with American Legion Post 459 -Commander of United Veterans Council of Kent County, Michigan -Wants to make sure that veterans get benefits and loved ones are recognized -Veterans and loved ones of veterans make sacrifices -Involved with the Kent County Veterans' Millage -Works in the Veterans' Services Office -Staffed by younger veterans -Feels that we owe it to veterans to help them (00:54:04) Civilian Life -Now works as a real estate agent -Has done that for 17 years -Had four children and raised them -Became a real estate agent after she got done raising her children -Even in the Navy she was encouraged to go into real estate � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_RobinsonT1749V Title A name given to the resource Robinson, Theresa (Interview outline and video), 2015 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015-04-23 Description An account of the resource Theresa Robinson was born on September 20, 1955 in Grand Rapids, Michigan. She enlisted in the Navy in February 1974 and began basic training at Naval Training Center Orlando, Florida in March 1974. She received personnelman training at Naval Training Center Orlando and upon completion of that was assigned to Naval Air Station Miramar, California. She worked in the Personnel Office and the Student Personnel Office for VF-121 (an F-14 fighter squadron). She completed her active duty at NAS Miramar and voluntarily left the active reserves in either late 1976, or early 1977. Theresa was the commander of American Legion Post 258 and is still a member of American Legion Post 459. She is also the commander of the United Veterans Council of Kent County, Michigan and works in the Veterans' Services Office. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Robinson, Theresa Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American United States. Naval Reserve. Women's Reserve Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Moving Image Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/x-m4v application/pdf https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/835f596e5eb8810210894883ec763fce.mp4 03a2950ef7ee29900c697d3e246d58d3 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6a3cce8690989967f6a0ee74d6c58774.pdf be01b589b452f4d45609ad4a0ca3ea34 PDF Text Text Living With PFAS Interviewee: Linda Robles Interviewer: Dani Davasto Date: June 16, 2021 DD: I’m Dani DeVasto, and today, June 16, 2021, I have the pleasure of chatting with Linda Robles. Hi Linda. LR: Hi. DD: Linda, can you tell me about where you’re from, and where you currently live? LR: I am from Tucson, Arizona, and I live within the Davis-Monthan Air Force Base. Grew up all my entire life in the central Tuscan southside area. DD: How long have you lived within the base? LR: I have lived here all my life. Yeah. DD: That’s a long time. LR: Fifty-eight years. Yeah, it’s been a very long time. This is my home. DD: Can you tell me a story about your experience with PFAS or with PFAS in your community? LR: Yes, 2017- I mean, I’m sorry- 2003- my daughter became very ill. She-she passed away in 2007. I kind of thought that it might be related to the water contamination that started way back in 1980s. Well, around 2014, after my daughter's death in 2007, I became even more concerned that not only my daughter was ill in the community, so were many other children sick in the area, and then- all my other children and now my grandchildren have become- have been born with some kind of birth defect or later on got very sick. So, it-it was-it was- was the worst thing that could ever happen to a family. The experiences- the- I mean, the whole living a life like that was horrific. It was- it’s been a nightmare. Hospitals, surgeries, the-the costs, you know, and all the impacts, all the effects, all the burdens, they-they were very heavy on me. Unfortunately, you know, we did lose my daughter and one of my grand- my youngest daughter is in her end stages right now of kidney failure. My granddaughter continues to have these terrible relapses of kidney disease since she was two-years-old. She’s now going on fifth grade. She’s missed a lot of school and all that but- So my experience was around 2014. I gave birth to the Mothers Safe Water Force. At that time, after- soon after when I started- I started conducting a series of public health assessments, you know, and-and just organizing the community. I was in touch with the centers for environmental health and justice. Louis Gibbs, of course, and then- those people who just started teaching me and just really training me, and telling me, you know, and just kind of just helping me learn how to organize. I didn’t even know what to do. When I found out that the contamination I thought was cleaned up since 20- since 1980s was still a problem in our community, and then worse to find out that there was two new chemicals that were emerging, evolving safe drinking 1 �water standards and that- changing remediation methods. I did start doing the door knocking. I wanted to know. The health department and water companies and all the people involved, the EPA. You can imagine our site is a two part-and their part- is a two-part site. So, one of those sites is a military site as well, and then the other one is not. So it’s-it’s very complicated system to try to understand for an everyday mom. But I found out and I learned. I was determined. I wanna know why all these people are sick. Are we sicker than others? And come to find out we were. I began conducting these house surveys, door knocking, assessing the community, and people were just sending their surveys by mail. I mean it- the word just got out. Before you knew it, we were no longer the Mothers for Safe Water Force. We became the Environmental Justice Community Movement. All the community members, I mean, we started organizing- before you knew it we had thousands of people supporting it. Yeah, I mean, we filled up the ball rooms. We filled up thethe libraries. I mean, everywhere we went to have meetings, they were full packed. Where they were maxed. Where librarians had to tell people, “sorry we can not let you in.” You know. People were radical on Tucson Southside. I mean, they were getting radical. They wanted to know the same things I wanted to know. Because all along we thought they cleaned it up in the 1980s. We didn’t even know what a super fungicide was. DD: Uh-huh. LR: Yeah, so, then like I said, all these big organizations- all these big- you know these big government officials- they were dodging. I mean, they just didn’t even want to talk to me. Especially, when I was marching. We started marching in front of the offices. We started protesting in front of the schools. We just started- just doing one movement to another. Just pushing and pushing and pushing for PFAS regulations, PFAS, you know, investigation. And yeah- and that’s how we became the Environmental Justice Task Force. And still to this day now, it seems that everything I said in the beginning- because I did my research, I did my studies, I knew exactly where the pollution was- reporters were coming to me to find out. U of A, stu- you know, students were coming to me because I have a lot of information. How can somebody that dropped out in the fifth grade because I was just young, you know. I- I grew up on a ranch with my family, and we had horses- how can someone like that know, you know, know this type of work and I learned. And I- and I found was- those- those disproportionately higher rates of cancer in our community. The data wasn’t a lie. Our underground action tells the truth. DD: Mhmn. Mhmn. LR: That’s how we got the truth. DD: Yeah. LR: And-and to this day I am- I was not surprised that just a few weeks ago- we have been pushing for the governor to see- to address PFAS. We’ve been pushing the DOD to address PFAS. We’ve been pushing every government level to push for PFAS regulations. Stop the flow. Clean it up. Shut it down. That’s what you gotta do. So last week, we did get a report from the news media that the site will be shut down- not because it’s cleaned up. There’s not gonna a site closer because it’s a site completion and it's been cleaned up. It’s gonna close because it’s become too extreme due to PFAS exposures. 2 �DD: With all theLR: So, right now we are- Yeah. Sorry. DD: No, go ahead. Please. LR: Yeah, so right now we are forming a-a new project. We are standing in front of the schools again. We are protesting. We are just letting people know, again. Something’s in that water. Andand we’re getting them information about these issues and keeping people- getting- keeping people aware of the problem and just keep fighting until these people get some kind of justice. DD: So it sounds like you’ve been involved with a lot of different actions in the last several years. Have-have you had many successes? Or what-what has come of all these actions, in addition to the very important work of just getting information out? Has anything resulted for you? LR: Actually, yes. For the first project with Louise Gibbs, we were fighting to get the schools tested. This was before PFAS was exposed. We were pushing test for PFAS. Test the schools. Test for TCE. PAS dioxide. All those chemicals you found in that water, you go and test the schools. Federal and state facilities. Public water systems. All came back positive. And for PAS. That happened and I also- one of the things that I also was able to get- EPA to provide us with a technical assistant in 2018. This is when they were just talking a little bit about PFAS. You know, there wasn’t a lot of information they were going to give us about it, but they already knew they were there, they were showing up. They’ve been there since 2009, but that information really wasn’t coming to us. It was just between themselves. DD: Mhmn. LR: Another thing that I have done is that I have also become part of the PFAS National Coalition. Very happy to be a part of that group. We’ve been pushing for PFAS regulations on all PFAS as a class to the lowest levels, maximum contaminant levels, and also I have been part of the CDC PFAS generating committee. During a time where, you know, they have been planning on a multisite study. I’ve been really happy to be a part of that development for PFAS blood testing project multi-studies. And I’m really happy to be a part of that. Even though we were not a state picked for that-for that study- I have been part of this development and the birth of it. That- That’s okay. You know, and also, I have been able to just- to continue to support the project as well because right now we are holding polluters accountable and we feel that they should pay for the clean up. DD: And in your community, where is the pollution coming from? LR: The Davis-Monthan Air Force Base, the Tucson airport, A remediation project, known as the TARP, and also the Arizona Morris- Arizona International [Card?] base. Those are the main corporate sources. DD: Those three. 3 �LR: Yeah. DD: And can you tell me the original contamination that was being found in the water back in thein the 80s? That was- that was- what was that contamination? LR: So, in 1980s the 24 square mile area in our community was declared a super fungicide. It was placed on the National Priorities list in 1992, I believe. Since then, PFAS and deoxine were discovered. So that’s where we are right now. Currently with what EPA is saying about that clean up- that was a TCE contamination. Yes, and due to that, which included the Tucson International airport, and since then has become a steady project area. All under- under the super fun- whichwhich to me, is very disturbing because it’s done nothing for this community but has spread the contamination outwards. It started out as a three mile long plume. And- I mean, you are finding PFAS like that in Marana, the city of Marana. You’re finding it in the oil valley. And you have found it in over probably 90 zip codes at exceeding levels. Yeah. I mean, the city has unfortunately had to shut down many wells, city wells. They were also detected in the- some EPA and stateowned monitoring wells. Yeah. And I mean they’re just everywhere. They’re just everywhere, they’re just so persistent. These-these chemicals are so persistent. They’re worse than those little bugs flying around in your house going after the fruit. [Both laugh] LR: They’re just everywhere. Yeah. People are scared. People are stressing. People don’t know what to believe. People don’t know what to believe. You know, another thing that has been so unfortunate is that we have not had a lot of political support for the work. They have not acknowledged us. They- we’re really not the team of people- or the team- the group of people they like. We’ve been targeted to, you know. We’ve been lied about. You know- by-by big powerful people, you know, political people have done everything in their power to disempower our community too. You know, and-and to try to stop, you know, stop all this action and-and, you know, and they are kind of acknowledging other groups that are politically involved as the-the main people who are pushing when really it’s been us all along. Are- are com- This is where we gave birth. This is where all of this happened, you know, when the PFAS was exposed. It was because of the group and the community who took action. Who took action and started pushing and saying enough is enough. We’ve been lied to for too long now. We demand government transparency in this community because we were not given notice about these issues until way later when it was already too late. DD: Mhm. So what concerns do you have about PFAS contamination moving forward? LR: I’m really concerned that, well, another thing that I'm really concerned about relating to the P- surrounding the PFAS is just that most states have already had their children tested, families tested, where PFAS has been found in public water systems. Our community is always last. Our state is always last. And that’s unacceptable to us. That should not be- we should not be the last all the time. You know? And-and I’m not saying the last in just the PFAS issue. We are always the last state for just about everything. Even during COVID. We were like the last. You know. You know? Yeah, you know. Always the last people- and states call us the wild west. You know. We are known for that because it’s just terrible. And I have a feeling it’s because we are a 4 �significant latino community. We are. That’s one of our largest challenges. And then, not only that, but we are- we also carry a high amount of immigrants- Mexican-American immigrants andand I believe that is one of our greatest challenges. DD: For the Tucson area specifically or Arizona the state? LR: Arizona the state. But yeah- but in Tucson alone we are a very significant- very significant population of immigrants. DD: Mhm hmn. LR: And yeah. So that’s really tough on us because the problem is underestimated. Those people are not being counted for. DD: Mhm hmn. LR: But now- Yeah. But we’ve- But we’ve had a lot of them that don’t let- you know what man I don’t care. I ain’t got my papers, man. I’m going to stand up with you guys, and you know what, we want this water cleaned up. We got our family here. We got, you know grass roots here. You know what- this is unacceptable. This is coming against the, [unclear]. You know, and-and this is how- latinos- when we get together, we fight together. We fall together and we get up together. And, and I believe that-that is very powerful. I love it. I love them. I love my people. You know, and it’s not just because- we are diverse. Our group is diverse. It’s just because by nature we are just living- we are a large population in the Arizona area. DD: Hmm. LR: That doesn’t give somebody- you know what I mean, that doesn’t give somebody- that oh they’re just a bunch of mexicans. They can wait. That’s not okay. DD: Well, it sounds likeLR: So, we haven’t been tested. We haven’t been tested for PFAS. That would be nice. DD: Have people pursued being tested on their own? LR: We are trying to. We are very poor. This is a very poor area. And in a more populated area, and [unclear] justice community area, so yeah, we-we got a lot of those, disproportionate, you know, on our side, you know, that-that- it’s not helping us. So what we are trying to do is just- we are trying to raise that money up. Car washes. Whatever we got to do. But- yeah. We were able to raise money during the Louis Gibbs project when we were fighting to get all the schools tested for PFAS and those chemicals, we were able to have car washes. You had 83-year-olds helping out at the car washes, you know? DD: Yeah. 5 �LR: Yeah. It was awesome. We raised enough money to hire our own private environmental engineers to oversee the work, and saw the work that they were doing in that town. And we hope that with this new project we can raise that money, not only just to test people, but to also raise enough money to provide them with clean water. We are demanding clean water. Safe water. Surprise. Whether you have to pry them from another state- bring them. We don’t want this water anymore. It’s- It’s not okay with us. DD: Before we wrap up, is there anything else that you would like to add that we haven’t touched on today or anything you would like to go back to and say more about? LR: If it’s possible, I would like to just touch up a little bit on the fact that another big challenge for us is that we don’t get a lot of social media interest. It’s really hard to get people- reporters and Channel Nine news, and those people. Because the polluters are all contracted with these newspapers. They’re also contracted with these- you know, to TV stations and reporters, so when we call them to come and talk to our community, that’s- that’s us. It never happens. If you mention Tucson Water, that they’re involved, they won’t even come out. They don’t wanna hear it. They favor them. And they- they believe what they hear from them. They don’t hear- they don’t want to hear the voice of the community, which are very important. Yeah. Some- we’ve had some good and some bad, but even the good that we had all turned later. You know, it started off good, but then it ended bad because then it started- the stories went from us, to you know, talking their side of the story, and their side made us look like a bunch of dummies that don’t know what they’re talking about. But, thank God that- that the Lord has exposed them and that just recently, and it has become more evident that everything we said in the beginning has been true all along. We got so many people sick here. So many people died during Covid. A lot of people have auto-immune diseases in this community. And I hope this- that we can add this- that value to you, your story and your project, and that’s what I got to say, thank you. Thank you. Thank you for all that you are doing. God bless you for that. God bless you. DD: Well, thank you, Linda, for sharing your story and taking the time to do this. It’s a big part of the project is increasing the diversity of the voices in this conversation, so I'm really glad to be talking with you today. LR: Thank you. 6 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Living with PFAS Interviews Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Devasto, Danielle Description An account of the resource Beginning in 2021, the Living with PFAS interviews were recorded to gather the personal stories of individuals impacted by PFAS contamination. PFAS, or per- and polyflourinated substances, are a large group of human-made chemicals used widely since the 1940s to make coatings and products resistant to heat, oil, stains, grease, and water. They can be found in countless household items, including food packaging, non-stick cookware, stain-resistant furniture, and water-resistant clothing. These chemicals are often called “forever chemicals” because they do not break down easily, can move through soils and contaminate drinking water sources, and build up in animals, plants, and people. PFAS have been linked to increased incidences of various cancers, increased cholesterol, decreased fertility, birth defects, kidney and liver disease, and immune system suppression, and thyroid dysfunction. It is estimated that PFAS are in the drinking water of more than 200 million Americans (Andrews & Naidenko, 2020). In Michigan alone, over 280 sites have PFAS contamination exceeding maximum contamination levels for groundwater (MPART, 2024). Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Living with PFAS (project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Personal narrative PFAs (Perfluorinated chemicals) Groundwater--Pollution Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-11 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf audio/mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Motion Picture Text Sound Language A language of the resource eng Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context PFAS0013 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Robles, Linda (Shosie) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021-06-16 Title A name given to the resource Linda Robles (Shosie), 2021 (Interview video and transcript) Description An account of the resource Linda Robles lives in in Tuscon, Arizona within the Davis-Monthan Air Force Base. In this interview, Robles discusses how PFAS contamination touched her family and community, as well as her activism with the Mothers Safe Water Force and Environmental Justice Task Force. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource DeVasto, Danielle (interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Personal narrative PFAs (Perfluorinated chemicals) Groundwater--Pollution Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Living with PFAS (project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5006e5cea4daa16e1fc47ecf332cd2ea.mp4 d9e392a807df3ca0814a1fb59b65df85 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6bc6b97fa8e58f6beffa8107a21852b4.pdf 0263c04107638a4c42e445c4a50cb162 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project John Roblin Disc One (1:05:40) (00:25) Background Information • • • • • John was born in Jackson, Michigan in 1924 He was in Michigan during the depression and his father worked for the Michigan Central Railroad Company His father had a job transfer to Chicago in 1931 John went to high school in Chicago and was part of the junior ROTC for four years; he had hoped to go to West Point when he graduated By the time he had graduated, he had already taken the ASTP and had reached the cadet rank of lieutenant colonel battalion commander [training unit rank, not regular army rank] (2:30) The Service • • • • On July 5th, 1944 John was called to join the Army, only weeks after he had graduated Prior to that, he had been paying much attention to the news of the war and they had been registering for the draft everywhere and in 1940 they had begun calling the National Guard Pearl Harbor had been a great surprise to John because he thought the war would be contained to Europe During his time in high school, many students had become concerned about the war and many were working part time to replace the older men that had left for Europe (5:00) Training • John had graduated in 1943 and shortly after was sent to Fort McClellan in Alabama for basic training • He had been surprised to see the discrimination against “afro-Americans” in the South; they could not even sit on the bus together • John spent 14 weeks in basic training where they worked on drilling, rifle marksmanship, working with bayonets, map reading, scouting, and patrolling • He was made active platoon sergeant, which kept him out of KP (10:25) Fargo, North Dakota �• John went to North Dakota Agricultural College for engineering courses • They had 18 months to cover 4 years of material • He got the chicken pox and had to go to the hospital for so long that he could not make up the time in the courses • So he went with some other who had got sick to the University of Iowa to restart their enrollment in the same type of classes • They eventually closed that ASTP because they needed soldiers in the winter of 1944 (12:15) Louisiana • He joined the 44th infantry division and was part of the 71st infantry regiment, Charlie Company • Later John was promoted to Private First Class • They trained in very marshy areas with lots of snakes (14:00) Camp Phillips, Kansas • They went through advanced training here and John made 2nd scout • He got some time on leave and visited Michigan • In July he was sent to Massachusetts to the port of embarkation, where they proceeded to the port of Boston to board troop ships (17:00) The convoy across the Atlantic in July • They traveled with escort carriers, cruisers, and lots of destroyers • They had to take a zig zag course to avoid submarines while the destroyers were dropping depth charges • They had to always wear life jackets and had to practice evacuation drills • No ships were attacked on their voyage • His worked on guard duty and was allowed four meals a day • He learned more about the Navy since he was aboard a Navy troop ship �(18:45) France • John was aboard the first Convoy to go directly to France • They went ashore on landing boats and they were given ammunition as they were leaving the ship • Then they got on trucks and drove to be put into hedgerows • The Company ahead of them was probing for mines, which took days • There were no Germans in the area, though there had been fighting nearby earlier in Normandy • There was much shell damage in the French countryside • There were many enemy and American vehicles damaged on the side of the road (21:30) The Frontlines • John had received orders to move to the front • They marched to a railroad crossing to board some box cars, going from Normandy to the outskirts of Paris • The French civilians were nice and they tried to buy soap and cigarettes from the American soldiers • Then ended up near Strasbourg where they took reserve positions • They fought against German troops, who had a lot of Polish conscripts with them • The Germans who wanted to surrender attempted to do so only at night or very early in the morning (25:45) • John and his men began to pull back to attack defensive positions during the night • They attempted to go back to Strasbourg and experienced heavy enemy fire • John had been leading the men because he was second scout �• They lost contact with the rest of the battalion because they were so far ahead • John got some shrapnel in his knee and his platoon leader was hit also; many of their men died • They were still in the middle of battle when a large patrol arrived and took them to a small village aid station and then to a hospital (30:50) The Hospital • They arrived around the time of Thanksgiving and there were many French men in the hospital also • John received a purple heart, which he sent home to his parents • The Battle of the Bulge had broke out and they were evacuated to make room for others • John went to a different French hospital for a very long time • He had to learn to walk again and he had a very bad limp • John was sent to Paris to be processed and was then sent to a ground force replacement pool • John was categorized as a “profile 4” so he could not be sent back to an infantry unit • He was offered a job as a supply clerk at a desk to process supply records (34:50) Paris • John received a day pass to Paris and local children directed him and the other men around the city • They went shopping and John thought the city was marvelous • He bought cartons of cigarettes to barter with the French; they paid $1 per carton, but in other areas of France they were able to sell them for $30 a carton • They stopped to drink coffee and eat donuts, bought wine and French bread (39:30) The Air Corps Assignment • John was sent to an Air Corps replacement pool in Paris • He was part of the 410th bomb group who were light attack bombers with A-20s and A26s �• John received another job as a supply clerk for the headquarters squadron • He helped them clean their Thompson sub-machine guns because no one else had been trained to do it • All the bombers were flying towards Germany (44:25) The End of the War • John was sent to a replacement pool again in Paris; he thought he would soon be sent to fight in the Pacific • John ended up in Germany as the 9th Air Corps service commander • He was promoted to corporal and assigned to target intelligence • They were disarming German targets such as jet air craft, flak scopes, specialty bombs and radar equipment which they sent to Ohio • Men who had received 80 points were being sent back to the US • John did not have enough points and became corporal senior clerk in Frankfurt (54:20) Rotation • John left his German marks and got on a train towards Belgium • There were barrels of beer on the train on which they traveled in for several days • They then took a ship towards New York and then went to New Jersey for processing • John took another train to Chicago and then went to Wisconsin • He decided that he wanted to go to Michigan State University, but was not able because he was not a Michigan resident • John moved to Manistee and registered to vote in 1946 to establish his Michigan residence • He got a job at the Century boat plant doing upholstery work • John started school at Michigan State University in engineering under the GI Bill Disc Two (1:00:02) (00:10) Engineering �• The engineering courses were very difficult, so John switched to business administration • He worked in an advanced ROTC program for two years for an extra $30 a month • John had already been receiving $85 a month under the GI Bill • In 1949 John was commissioned as second lieutenant (3:05) The Army Reserve • John with the Army Reserve once a week in Lansing, receiving an extra $60 a month • He graduated in 1950 and a week later the Korean War broke out • John had been trying to get a job, but the people that interviewed him were all worried about his commitment to the Reserves • John signed up for another three years of service and got a job making Army trucks (6:40) John Was Ordered to Report to Active Duty on 11/09/50 • He went to Fort Leonard Wood in Missouri as part of the 6th armored division, 231st armored infantry battalion for basic training of company C • John helped provide basic training to young draftees working mostly on rifle marksmanship (9:45) Marriage • John applied for leave to get married to his wife, Rosemary, and he provided an apartment for her to stay in while he was on duty (10:30) Artillery Headquarters • John was assigned to artillery headquarters as an operations officer for the 231st • He also worked as an assistant for the Defense Counsel • Almost all the cases that went to trial were for men on AWOL; the majority of the men were found guilty and they were court martialed (14:50) John’s Promotion • John had served his two years as 2nd lieutenant and was promoted to first lieutenant on 6/15/51 • In July of 1951 John went to California for shipment across the Pacific �• Before leaving he had a 30 day break to visit his wife • He then went to the Travers Air Base for a chartered civilian transport to Japan • They refueled on Wake Island and Hawaii, where they were allowed to venture around • They landed in Tokyo and John was processed for infantry lieutenant leader • He spent time test firing on a rifle range with an M-2 Automatic Carbine • John boarded a ship towards Korea to join another replacement pool of the 24th infantry division • He was part of the 5th infantry regiment of the 24th heavy weapons company (24:20) Dog Company • John was assigned to Dog Company and they made a few attacks with direct enemy fire • John was transferred to Charlie Company and was part of the 1st battalion • They needed replacements because they only had 10 men of a 40 man platoon • John had to train the sergeant and all the other new replacements • In Korea they were always moving forward and the lines were static • They had been trying to straighten the line near the 28th parallel • The men always patrolled at night with about 10 men of a squadron, one Korean soldier for interpreting, and a scout dog (33:15) The Winter • They had to dig out a bunker for every squad and in front they had connecting trenches and fighting holes • They enemy would not attack in sub-zero temperatures and many of their weapons froze up • They received one hot meal a day • Every many was rationed one case of beer a month • The officers also received a bottle of whiskey a month (36:50) Japan �• John received leave to go to Japan during his wife’s birthday and he was excited that he would be able to call her • His company was assigned to the outpost line of resistance duty • They had to set up an ambush and open fired on the enemy • In Japan he was issued a new outfit and they took his gun while he was there • John went to Tokyo and the city was in good condition and much warmer than in Korea • They went to nice restaurants and stayed in a nice hotel (49:40) Back to Korea • John brought back 2 cases of whiskey to share with the other men • If anyone sold the whiskey for more than $5 a bottle, they would be court marshaled (52:40) Kojido • John’s whole regiment was sent to Kojido to guard POWs and relieve units of the 26th infantry division • They were on this island for 2 months and John also received another leave to go to Japan • They went back to eastern Korea to set up defensive positions • Korea was in the process of peace talks • In the summer of 1952 John received orders to go back to the US Disc Three (00:30:31) (00:10) POWs • John had been guarding Korean and Chinese POWs • The North Koreans were very difficult to work with but the Chinese were cooperative • The Koreans had just started a riot before John arrived • The rioters had stormed the gate and tried to break out; hundreds of rioters were wounded or dead (3:25) John is Relieved �• He was relieved from the 5th regimental combat team and sent back to Japan for redeployment to the US • The ship he traveled on was very different from what he traveled on during World War Two • The ship had clean sheets, movies to watch, and a buffet for snacks • John arrived in California and then received a 30 day leave to visit his wife in Manistee • After visiting his wife, John had to report to Fort Riley, Kansas (7:40) Army General School • John was assigned to team F in Officer Candidate School • He became an instructor at the school and trained men in map reading, scouting, and patrolling (9:30) Intelligence School • John started his classes in October and completed the program in one year • He began teaching again in intelligence and map reading • John’s wife enjoyed living in Kansas and he was thinking about trying to get a regular Army commission (16:15) The Korean War Ends • The Army was allowing officers to be released from active duty • His wife was pregnant and they wanted to go back to Manistee, Michigan • John was sent home and discharged on 9/30/53 • He took a civil service exam and became a liquor enforcement officer trainee • John then had an interview for a management position at a new hospital • He got the job and was in charge of the purchasing department • They then built a children’s hospital and John was the manager there, eventually becoming an administrative officer • John took a job as a finance officer in a new hospital and retired in 1983 �."<~~ A~ ··:-C""':-' :" ::.: :.:.:.-::-: .•.• !u . . ~ ~ ;;:, r .. -,.J , \i): I I I .1 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RoblinJ Title A name given to the resource Roblin, John (Interview outline and video), 2007 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roblin, John Description An account of the resource John Roblin joined the Army on July 5th, 1944 and was part of the first convoy to go directly to France during World War II. While in the service, John experienced a good deal of combat and eventually injured his leg. He spent a long time in a hospital learning to walk again. After John had recovered he was moved all over Europe within different regiments. After John served his time in Europe, he fought in the Korean War. He received many promotions during his time spent in the service. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans United States. Army World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Video recordings Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2007-11-06 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/08f987cb968fd877fb7ef487874e0656.mp4 370acbcfb2cc63189c3ab6381d2efedc https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/47ccab2609663e42cdaa66807bcd9ecd.pdf d1c4e217a55fcd483bb4246c9f3c26e1 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans’ History Project Dr. Larry Robson Vietnam War 44 minutes 41 seconds (00:00:37) Early Life -Born on June 27, 1937 in Almont, Michigan -Moved to Allegan, Michigan where his father owned a drug store -Went to Albion College, Michigan originally to play basketball -He later got involved in medicine -Went to medical school at the University of Michigan -Graduated from that in 1963 -After medical school he went on to surgical training -Graduated from that in 1968 -Went to Albion College from 1955 to 1959 -Went to the University of Michigan from 1959 to 1963 (00:01:34) Enlisting and Awareness of the Vietnam War -He understood at the time that medical students were expected to serve -Especially after 1965 when the Vietnam War escalated even further -He followed the news about the war very closely -Felt it was better to go into a specialty (like surgery) to avoid getting drafted -He got into a program known as the Berry Plan -This deferred doctors that were in residency for their specialty -Also allowed to pick your branch -Meant a two year commitment in the military -He picked the Navy to be his branch of service -He was married at the time -His wife was working as a teacher in Ypsilanti, Michigan -She supported the idea of him joining the Navy (00:04:24) Stationed in Texas -He graduated from surgeon training in June 1968 -He was sent to Naval Air Station Corpus Christi, Texas shortly thereafter -There were two other surgeons there -It was a small base -He enjoyed being there -Five months later he was told that he was going to be sent to Vietnam to aid the Marines -During his time there he wasn’t given any naval training -Just expected to serve as a surgeon for the Navy -He entered the Navy as a lieutenant commander He had a surgery office and a hospital at his disposal -Taking care of sailors that were on the base -He was able to live on the base with his wife and two children (00:06:24) Training with the Marines -From Texas he was sent to Camp Pendleton, California for Marine training �-Training lasted three weeks -He was part of the Medical Service School -Similar to boot camp in terms of physical training and weapons training -Given training on how to treat trauma related to combat wounds -Getting indoctrinated into the Marines -Remembers doing the same things that Marines did -Physical training -Going into the field for maneuvers and ambush training -Learning how to shoot and maintain a rifle -Getting the same discipline training as a Marine -He was a major at the time, but still at the mercy of the drill sergeants -He trained with other doctors, nurses, and corpsmen -He responded well to the training -He just focused on emotionally and psychologically adjusting to the Marines -He saw the training as being practical -The drill sergeants didn’t bother him -He received training on the triage system -Learning how to categorize wounded and decide who will survive and who won’t -He also received training on the medical transport system (00:09:57) Deployment to Vietnam -Remembers going first to a camp in Okinawa, Japan waiting for a plane to take him to Da Nang -He arrived at Da Nang in the middle of the night -Remembers that the heat was overwhelming -He didn’t have anywhere to sleep -He was sent to a large building that didn’t have any available cots and no toilets -Had to sleep on the floor (00:11:05) Assignment to the 3rd Marines -He was assigned to the 3rd Marines Division -They were stationed in Quang Tri -Seven miles south of the demilitarized zone -He took a C-130 up to where they were stationed -He was stationed specifically at Quang Tri Combat Base -There were eight operating rooms and fifty physicians -They got rocketed every other night -He went to a noncommissioned officer to check in -From there he met with his commanding officer who was a plastic surgeon -After that he found an open cot and settled in -He was placed on a rotating call schedule (00:12:35) Living in the Quang Tri Combat Base -Most of the combat was happening at night which meant most of the work was at night -He treated both American and North Vietnamese soldiers -Recognized that the North Vietnamese were tough and dedicated soldiers -He lived in a “hooch” with three other medical personnel -It had a metal roof and half sides with screens -He hanged up mosquito netting because the mosquitos carried malaria -Kept his flak jacket, helmet, and boots at the foot of his bed �-They had bunkers to go to if they were rocketed -He never got used to the rocket attacks -Had to figure out how to know the difference between friendly and enemy artillery -Quang Tri still had a lot of civilians in it -They were mostly poor, peasant types -They would take care of the base’s trash -Only a few were allowed to come onto the base to work (00:15:23) Medical Work at Quang Tri -He performed surgery the first night that he was there -Remembers that gunshot wounds from the AK-47 and shrapnel wounds were horrific -Casualties were brought in by a helicopter then taken to a triage surgeon -Figuring out who should get treated first and who wasn’t going to make it -Recalls it being discouraging and sad work -Soldiers requiring neurosurgery were taken to a hospital ship for that -Corpsmen ran the rotation schedule -Had a number system that went from 1-8 -1 meant you were the first person on call -8 meant that you were the triage surgeon -It was a twenty four hour job -Most of the days were slow, it was only at night that things got bad -Finding the time to sleep wasn’t the problem, it was actually getting to sleep -The heat made sleep difficult -Most of the time just slept in the operating rooms because they were air conditioned (00:18:26) Changing Units -He developed a great admiration for the Marines -The 3rd Marine Division was eventually pulled out -In its place was the 101st Airborne Division (00:19:51) Working off the Base -Every Wednesday the general would come in and inform them of an upcoming operation -This was so that they were better prepared for an influx of casualties -He never went out to firebases -He wasn’t allowed to leave the base like that because he was a physician -Most physicians got killed because they left the base to explore -On Wednesdays they would go into the city of Quang Tri to a State Department hospital -It was run by the Navy -Its purpose was so that they could treat civilians -Remembers it being primitive, dirty, and crowded (00:22:40) Working in a Medical Battalion -Fifty percent of corpsmen were going to get wounded or killed while in Vietnam -Most of the corpsmen at Quang Tri had already been in the field -Even the ones that hadn’t been were still phenomenal at what they did rd -The 3 Medical Battalion was a separate unit (00:24:11) Morale, Drug, and Race Problems -Some of the Marines were dealing with post-traumatic stress disorder -Some got desperate enough to shoot themselves in the foot -If they weren’t sent back to the U.S. they would get angry and attempt to kill doctors �-He remembers having armed guards outside of his hooch -Nothing happened while he was there though -He didn’t see any drug problems first hand -Most of those cases were handled by the chaplains and psychologists -He worked with other races -There were a high number of black soldiers in the Marines -After Martin Luther King Jr. was assassinated racial tensions flared -He was called names and harassed by bitter soldiers -He was afraid of getting attacked, but didn’t resent them for it -He heard about race based confrontations at the platoon level (00:28:24) Diseases -He took two drugs to prevent malaria -One was taken every day for six weeks -The other one was taken once on Sunday -The problem with that one was that it made you incredibly sick -Malaria was much more of a problem in the field -Tuberculosis and hepatitis were also major problems in Vietnam -He contracted both while he was over there -During the monsoon season mold was a major health concern (00:30:38) Communicating with Home -He would send cassette tapes that he recorded home to his wife -She would then record her own tapes and send them back to him -He didn’t get an R&R while he was in Vietnam -He would have had to pay to fly his wife out and it was too expensive -He was able to go to Yokosuka, Japan for a week to escort some wounded -He was able to call home once (00:31:21) Working on the Hospital Ship -There was a conflict between the ship doctors and the shore doctors -Command decided that the roles would be reversed for a short time to equalize the two -He thought being on a hospital ship would be a great assignment -It wound up being terrible because everything was closely monitored and regimented -He spent two weeks on the ship -By the end of the first week he was ready to get off of it (00:32:27) End of Tour and Working with 101st Airborne Division -He didn’t know the exact day that he was going home, but knew when his tour was ending -For the last couple months that he was there he worked with the 101st Airborne Division -The hospital continued to function the same way that it had when the Marines were there -There was a difference in terms of discipline though (Army was more relaxed) -His quarters were near the perimeter next to a machine gun nest -They were never probed by sappers during his time in Quang Tri -During his time in Vietnam he never went down to Saigon (00:35:00) Coming Home -He went to Da Nang and from there to Okinawa -In Okinawa he had to wait five days until he got a plane to go back to the U.S. -He was given two days’ notice before he was sent home �(00:36:01) Reflections on Service Pt. 1 -He formed some incredibly close bonds with people when he was in Vietnam -One man was a classmate from the University of Michigan -He wound up surviving the war and became a cardiologist -It was the first time in his life that his existence was largely unimportant to other people -If he lived or died it was all the same to the other military personnel -Remembers chaplains being important for morale (00:38:06) End of Service -He flew from Okinawa, to San Francisco, to Chicago, to Muskegon, Michigan -He was allowed a few weeks of leave home -He was assigned to Great Lakes Naval Hospital at Great Lakes Naval Station, Chicago, Illinois -Continued with surgery there -Spent six months there -Enjoyed being stationed there -Remembers that it was a large facility -While at Great Lakes he treated a large number of patients -His wife and children were allowed to live with him on base -It was a similar schedule to being a civilian doctor, but he was still treating war wounds -Now he was dealing with reconstructive work -There was an effort to get him to reenlist -He had already agreed to a fellowship at Ford Hospital in Detroit though -If he had stayed in he would have been promoted and given a pay raise -He didn’t want to stay in though, but still respected the Navy (00:41:57) Reflections on Service Pt. 2 -Don’t get into a war -His service taught him how to operate fast -Hopes that we don’t get into another large scale war like that again -He is still bothered by dreams -Avoids war movies and war novels so that they don’t trigger bad dreams -He has a huge respect for the military now � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_RobsonL1702V Title A name given to the resource Robson, Larry (Interview outline and video), 2014 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2014-11-08 Description An account of the resource Dr. Larry Robson is a Vietnam War veteran who was born on June 27, 1937 in Almont, Michigan. He attended Albion College and the University of Michigan completing surgical training in 1968. He enlisted in the Navy in June 1968 to fulfill his commitment to the military. He was first stationed at Naval Air Station Corpus Christi, Texas for five months until he received orders to go to Vietnam. He was trained at Camp Pendleton and was then deployed to Vietnam where he joined the 3rd Medical Battalion with the 3rd Marines Division at Quang Tri. He served as a surgeon for a year first with the Marines then with the Army when the 101st Airborne Division replaced the Marines. After Vietnam he was assigned to the Great Lakes Naval Hospital at Great Lakes Naval Station, Illinois for the last six months of his service. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Robson, Larry Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American United States. Navy United States. Marine Corps United States. Army Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Moving Image Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7bb38fdc07b797cf3c4580523881c67a.pdf 82a486e39f1a4786c702490a90dabd09 PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Grand Valley State University Special Collections Interviewee: Robert Robson Interviewers: Kyle LeMieux, Amanda Hengesbac and Tara Yax Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 10/26/2011 Biography and Description Robert Robson is a military veteran who was born and raised in Grand Rapids. He signed a contract with the navy in 1962 and spent 4 years in active duty and 2 years in the inactive reserves. He has a lot of memories from his time in the navy and talked about his views on the military and being a veteran in the United States. Growing up in Grand Rapids he had a lot of stories about some of the things that have been changing in the area including diversity. Transcript YAX: Ok here we go. Hey. Ok so I’m here with Robert Robson, Yes? Ok. Here we go. So where did you grow up? Where were you born? ROBSON: About a mile from where we’re at. YAX: Really? ROBSON: Yeah YAX: Born and raised in Grand Rapids? ROBSON: Yep YAX: How was that? ROBSON: I started out in Gailwood, is where the first home that I remember. it was a middle class low income middle class at the time because that’s what everybody made at that time. You know I mean it wasn’t as the middle class obviously progressed over the years you have the income increase too. But it was it was just a middle class neighborhood. Everybody was equal. my parents we kind of went through, kind of went through the depression and everything. when just before I became school age about four and a half years old and we moved about, about a mile and a half, two miles from where we, where I was raised. And I stayed there until I left home. and I graduated from Lee High school. YAX: Oh ok ROBSON: In 59. So. Page 1 �YAX: So what was it like going through the depression? Do you remember a lot of it? ROBSON: Well I was really really young then. I just remember that, I remember more of the war being over cuz I was, well because I was born in 41, so I, I, but I remember more of the war being over. I remember, vaguely remember fireworks and guns being fired when the war was over [laughter] Of all things. There there’s sort of a you know an oxymoron you know. Guns being fired the war is over. but and, and I remember when we would play we had the tokens and different things. The scrips and different things that we had, my parents had during the war and, and, and through the depression they had little tokens that were worth 5 cents or 5 dollars or a dollar or something. Then they had the, the scrips, which were small little paper chips like and they had values written on them in place of money. And so it’s, it was kind of like, it, it, it was kind of like a forerunner to the food stamp thing. my parents had to pay a certain amount, then they would get these chips and then they could go to the grocery store or gas and buy produce or other stuff with it. YAX: Oh ok ROBSON: And I remember running across a book after my mother died of prices that she paid at a second hand store for, for clothes for us kids. I had two younger sisters and two older sisters and there was prices in there like a pair of socks for a nickel, blue jeans for like fifteen cents, you know. And I would just, just page after page in this book, which was about an inch and a half almost two inches thick. And it was a daily recording of everything that she spent. it just that they had to watch their pennies that closely. YAX: Wow ROBSON: my grandparents actually are the ones that bought the house for my parents. at the time there was a lot of money. I mean the house that we lived in was a very large two story. It had 3 bedrooms, and a bathroom full bath upstairs, and then down stairs you had a, a kitchen and a half bath, a sunroom, and a breakfast nook, and then you had a dining room and a living room. And then the basement was the basement [laughs]. There wasn’t furnished, but it wasn’t a Michigan basement either. It was just a low basement made out of cement blocks and stuff. But that house and it sat on a lot and a half, it was on one of the bigger lots on the street and they paid 5,000 dollars for that house, YAX: Wow ROBSON: Which at that time was a lot of money for a house that big, but we had we figure 5 children and 2 adults living in that house so we needed all the room we could get. And it had a sun porch on the back, which eventually my parents had made into a closed in room. And my mother moved all of her sewing equipment up there. But it also, it also served as an extra bedroom and stuff. YAX: So you lived in a three-bedroom house with five kids? ROBSON: Yeah it was a little crowded [laughter]. Yeah it was a little crowded. But it eventually as my two older sisters got out of high school, my oldest sister, she and her fiancé, he was in the army and he came home eventually they got married and then my other older sister she moved out on her own so then it was just my two younger sisters and myself at home. But still it was, it was it was tough because Page 2 �things were starting to change businesses were, my dad really didn’t have a good trade at that time and he met a man who became a friend and he owned, this man owned the tool and die shop out on 28th street, which is no longer there, the building is no longer there. And he taught my dad how to be a tool and die maker. And so, and my dad was very good with numbers so he caught on pretty quick. so he, he he learned how to be a tool and die maker and then from time to time he worked at American seeding at one time. He worked at Reynolds aluminum, which is now down there on [unintelligible]. It’s a conglomerate now with smaller, with smaller businesses in there, but it used to be Reynolds aluminum. Reynolds metals company originally. He worked there as a tool and die maker and then he, he got, aluminum kind of took a dive for a while there and so he got laid off for a short time and then he ended up working at Steelcase and he retired from Steelcase as a tool and die man. he quit school when he was 16 so that tells you, and he was from a farm he was from the wayland area, which is about what, 30 miles south of here, so 25 30 miles south of here. And, and because he lived on a farm it was the thing for most of the boys to, most boys anyways to go to school until they were about 16 17 years old and then they would quit school and then spend their time helping on the farm. Well he was an only child so his extra hands were needed on the farm. But it was you know his, his grand, his parents lived on this big farm, and they didn’t have a lot of things either. They had a the most modern thing that I remember down there was that they had a a propane tank and that they had a gas stove. That was probably the most thing. Because their, their water, they had a hand pump on the sink you know. they had they raised a lot of their own vegetables and stuff. My grandmother would, would can and they had a what they called a fruit cellar. And that fruit cellar was actually nothing more than a hole dug in the ground, under the house, [laughter] and back under the house a ways, so that there was no heat in it. But in the winter time it acted as cold storage, [laughter] and they would have, she would have all of her stuff, all of her things that she canned during the summer would be sitting down there and so they had food all winter long and then they had this big garden and they always had a lot of potatoes and stuff so they would throw them down there. And there’s nothing worse then spoiled potatoes [laughter], But they had a small farm. It was an 80-acre farm and they did a lot of bartering. Now we’re talking, I was born in 41 so this is the end of the 40’s, early 50’s, and they still bartered with the neighbors. my, my grandmother might have some excess, they might have some excess food out of their garden so if, and they might want to get some eggs so they would take some vegetables or my grandmother would do sewing and they would take that to another farmers house and they would exchange that for say butter and eggs. they didn’t need milk because he had his own milking cows, and he had, he had, we had, they had some chickens, but they only had like a few. Every once in a while one of them would upset my grandfather we’d have it for supper [laughter]. So, so the eggs, so the eggs came out kind of short once in a while. But they had a, they had a pig you know a couple pigs, you know. It was a typical small, small farm really. He farmed, with horses, he didn’t have any machinery, modern machinery you know like tractors and stuff. The first time I saw a tractor on his farm was when they were gonna move from Wayland to Middleville, and what they did was they, they swapped with a man and his family in Middleville who had an 80-acre farm but it wasn’t farming, and what he wanted was a working farm, so they just swapped. And my grandfather wanted to get out of the, because he was getting up there in age, so that’s what they did. And then but they brought over all kinds of people to help harvest the wheat, and the grain and stuff that summer, and do the baling and all that so that all of this stuff could be figured into the costs of the farm, and how much of it you know money wise my Page 3 �grandfather was going to get. Because it was a working farm vs. a non-working farm he had a little bit more of an investment then this other guy did. So he had to, this guy had to pay him some dollars in cash. But so when they moved it. But I remember I never saw so many people, I never saw so much food, [laughter]. And that’s the first time I saw tractors and baling machines. And, and mechanical thrashing machines. YAX: Wow ROBSON: Otherwise my grandfather did everything with a team of horses. He would plow, plant, harvest, everything with his horses. and I would, I got around five or six, about five years old, four or five years old my parents would, I would go down on the farm, and when I was about five or six years old I knew how to drive a team of horses, you know. Which I thought was pretty cool [laughter]. And you know, how many kids in my neighborhood back home that were older then me, they couldn’t drive horses, but I could, you know. So, but It was it was that’s the kind of the way the lifestyle was you know. then, oh and then right across the street there was a lake so they did some fishing. They had fresh fish, and my grandparents had a well YAX: Wow ROBSON: A fresh water well on their farm, which was about four feet, or about, I don’t know, six to eight feet long, about five feet wide, and about eight feet deep about half full of water. And that water in there was clear as glass, and it was just as cold as can be, about forty some degrees. YAX: Oh ROBSON: And it bull heads in the bottom of it to keep the algae out. They would eat all the algae. So they kept the water clear. They had Indians that came over that were in the area down there in Wayland, that picked pickles for some of the neighbors, and they would come over to my grandparents and get fresh water from them. YAX: Oh wow. ROBSON: And these people didn’t have, these people had absolutely nothing to speak of. My parent, my grandparents were rich compared to them. But these people were proud and they would come over and get the water, but they wouldn’t just take the water. They’d get something in return for it. They would do it, and this goes back to the barter thing. they would sharpen grandma’s knives that she needed sharpened in the kitchen or they would take care of grandpa’s tools for him, you know, sharpen tools that needed to be sharpened or and then they would, but they had these huge crocks that you see where they would have the yolks and they would have these two big, on the neck yolks you know, and they would have these big crocks filled with water. These things held about ten gallons each. And there would be women that would carry them on their heads, you know, and hey would take them over to the fields and then they would have that cold water, and these crocks were, would keep that water cold as long as the kept it out of the sun, and the crocks didn’t heat up. You know. but I remember one of the Indian families had a death in the family, and my grandparents took some food over to them, and I remember there was an awful lot of people living in one small house. It was probably, the house was Page 4 �probably twice the size of this room that we’re sitting in, length and width wise. And it had a loft up above. That’s where all the children slept, were in the loft. And it had some rooms down below for their parents and it had a fireplace. That’s where they did all their cooking was in the fireplace. YAX: Ah ROBSON: it had a dirt floor in most of the cases, and it was a paper tar shack, but it had real windows in it, real glass windows in it. But they didn’t have much. Those people didn’t, and but they were good people. They I mean I thought it was really an honor to know real live Indians, you know, and, and know the, I, I knew the chief. I can’t tell you their names cuz I don’t remember them it was so long ago. But they but they were really nice people, you know. but that was how my grand, my great grandfather lived in the reed city area and I went to his farm one time and you talk about something that would, that was desolate. I don’t know how he made a living on that farm, but he did. You know. I mean that farmers in, in, my background being from the farm, these people were, were rugged individuals but they were and tenacious. They wouldn’t give up. You know. And they, they would just as time went on you know, and things got better and better my, my mother and father finally after my dad retired were able to have save enough money and go places. Visit you know, and see some of the world. You know, they and but it, it all came with time, you know, as, as these things advanced and things got better for us kids. We had better clothing we could, we could get dress up clothes [laughter] you know, that we didn’t have before, and so it, it all, it, it you know as, as, as it evolved, as the economies got better and everything after the war and that things got better. The neighborhood was nice I go to that neighborhood now today and it doesn’t look any different then the last time I was there as a kid. YAX: Really? ROBSON: it doesn’t, it hasn’t changed that much at all. The same houses, and I could go down there and name the people that lived in the houses you know. It’s really wild. but it but still it hasn’t changed that much. It’s still a blue-collar neighborhood and it most of the kids still go to Lee. there’s some of them that go to Holy [unintelligible], which is the catholic school over on Godfrey there’s a few of them that, that when I was growing up, up on Grandville avenue there was a Christian school called southwest Christian, and it was a went up to the 7th or 8th grade and then from there they went downtown to Christian high school, which is now I believe where the state now has welfare offices in there, its on Franklin I believe it is. at the top of Franklin and its, its that’s, that school up there is was transformed into a, a welfare office and stuff, and then, because then they built South Christian out south of town, and then the other Christian school over off in Plymouth. YAX: Right. ROBSON: So they didn’t need that big building downtown anymore. So the state bought it and that’s what they use it for. So it’s been a lot of changes and stuff you know, YAX: Right. Page 5 �ROBSON: Around, but it but that’s how my beginnings were, basically my, my parents, my grandmother and grandfather on my mothers side were farmers they lived in Burton Heights right across from Burton school as a matter of fact, and that house is still there. But they had a huge garden in the back too. YAX: H. ROBSON: you know, and you, the amazing thing about my grandfather was he was about 6 foot 3 or 4, he was a big man, but he didn’t drive. And he got a job at Steelcase. YAX: Hmm ROBSON: He would walk everyday to work. From Cutler and Buchanan all the way down to hall and Buchanan to Steelcase. At, actually he’d walk down there to Century and Hall is where, is where it was. Everyday, unless the weather was really, really, super, super bad. And then my grandmother might drive him down or someone would pick him up as he started to walk down there. But, they didn’t have a whole lot either. Their house is you go into that house and its quite small. YAX: Mm hmm ROBSON: It had, I’m trying to remember, I’ve only, I was only upstairs in that house a couple times, but I think it had a a storage space and a bedroom upstairs and then it had, then downstairs was another bedroom and a kitchen and a dining room and a living room and then it had a Michigan basement under it. And it’s, I remember one thing about the house, the stairways were very narrow YAX: Mm hmm. ROBSON: Really, really narrow. so it wasn’t and course they’d be, being in the city they had gas my grandmother didn’t have to use a, a coal stove or anything like that. She had a, but it was an old fashioned kitchen stove YAX: Mm hmm, ROBSON: I mean compared to what we have today. But, one of the things I’ll say about my grandmothers, both of them, they could cook! [Laughter]. They were excellent cooks. and, and my mother and, and my mother and my sisters, older sisters I think gathered something from those ladies and the way they did cook you know. these ladies could cook without recipes and the food was you know, really good. And bake, oh man they made the best pastries in the world. I know my, my dad’s mother used to make sugar cookies that were probably oh 6 inches in diameter, [laughter] and they’d just melt in your mouth and then my, my mother’s mother she made the best peanut butter cookies in the world. And they were just really good. But those, they, both those ladies could cook, so the food was good. My mother had to learn to do all that stuff. She would go, my mother and 3 of her neighbors [laughs], this was always room for, they would go through the paper and pick out sales that were going on, at Kroger, or A and P or, whoever the stores were around, and then the 4 of them would go shopping together. But what was funny is they might travel, they might spend, use up 5 gallons of gas to save a dime on food or something, which was kind of funny. But they would do that, I mean that might be an exaggeration a little bit, [laughter], but, but that’s what they would do. They would go from, they Page 6 �might go to one store and only pick up 2 maybe 3 items, and then go to another store and get a bunch more, but when they came home they had all the groceries that they went out to get, but they got them at, on sale. Also, we, where my, my parents lived over there, off in Gailwood there over by Lee school there, there was a man named Noel. He lived on the corner of prair [pause to think], what is that prairie, no not prairie anyway down there in Burlingame right on the corner, I cant quite think of the name of the street right now, Beverly I think it is, or right near there, and he had a muck farm, a truck farm, and he would pick fresh vegetables and stuff, and he had a big truck, and he would load it up with ice and put all these vegetables on it and he would go through the neighborhood and sell these fresh vegetables. And you could buy bunches, you could buy a watermelon that was as big as you were you know, YAX: Mm hmm ROBSON: For 15 cents. you could buy a dozen ears of corn for 15 cents. You could buy lettuce, either leaf lettuce or head lettuce, either one for leaf lettuce was maybe 4 cents, and head lettuce was maybe a nickel. Or you could get he had everything. He had fresh beets, he had just you name it, he had it. He had Carrots, radishes YAX: Right ROBSON: You know the whole thing. And it was all fresh. And you, and he would come down the street you know, and the women and other, everybody would come out you know and buy stuff, [laughter], and he’d go on until he sold all of his produce for that day. And that’s how I mean that’s kinda how he got started. He, he, he evolved, I mean he had several boys, and a couple of daughters I think, and they, they farmed the land for him and stuff. And their boys, I know a couple of their boys and they all turned out to be very hard workers. he they, I cant say that they had a lot. YAX: Mm hmm ROBSON: but they were all very, very hard workers. Most of them spent a good portion of their life with produce like that, bringing it around to the neighborhood. So that’s all still part of, of the post war period, right after, a few years after the war. YAX: Right. ROBSON: Before things really started to change. And, and you know or big time. It was, you went through a lot of other changes and stuff in there politically and so forth but it was, it was a whole lot different then. you didn’t have anywhere near the crime that we have today, mainly because I think of two things. One everything you wanted you could get at a reasonable price. And, and two I don’t think you had to be, everybody was equal. You know, they didn’t have, you weren’t you’re neighbors had the same thing that you did. Ah yeah maybe they, they saved their money a little bit differently and maybe they were, they might dress a little bit better, but not that much, you know. and their job might be a little better, but it was all basically on the same plane, YAX: Mm hmm. Page 7 �ROBSON: Same scale, same level. So you, so you you were all pretty equal, so you didn’t need to steal from anybody, or, or anything like that. Its not to say that you weren’t mischievous [laughter], but I, but yeah. I and my neighbor boy buddies, we got in our share of trouble for doing things we shouldn’t have. But the for a ling time Wyoming was a township. And so it didn’t, it, its, its police department was a branch of the Kent County sheriffs department. So even though for a long time it wasn’t a for, it was quite a few years before they kinda can honestly say they got their own police force. But then, I was away when I graduated in ’59, and then shortly there after I went to J C for a short period of time and then I went into service. And then it was while I was in the service that Wyoming incorporated into a city. and then, a lot of things changed then obviously. a lot of the, the neighborhoods that were individual neighborhoods now were all one, and if you go down on Chicago Drive between Burlingame and Godfrey or between Burlingame yeah, well, actually it, its not just between Burlingame and Godfrey, but if you, you start at Burlingame pretty much and go East on Chicago drive, you can see what was there. A lot, every, practically every business that is there today was there when I was a kid, but it might have been something different. some places there’s a used car lot that used to be a standard gas station. There’s a barber shop where there used to be a Clark gas station. There’s a restaurant where there used to be a dairy and I don’t know, what’s in that big, at the big store there that used to be a general store that was run by a woman and it was like a nickel and dime place for us. We’d go in there you know and if you had 10 cents in your pocket you’d go down there and buy yourself a bottle of pop or something. We used to sit on her front step and go in and buy a vernors ginger ale and see who could shoot it the farthest. [Laughter]. But because it was so carbonated. YAX: Yeah. ROBSON: like down through, you could go down through there and you could see the different buildings. There’s, there was one place that used to make donuts or something like that, I think it’s an awning shop now. There’s another gas station that does something different. There’s a place that used to be a bike shop that I don’t know what they do there anymore. There’s a body shop that used to I don’t know what they do anymore either but right next door used to be a restaurant, well that’s gone now and there’s a funeral home that took up that whole property. then beyond the funeral home there’s a drug store that’s been there for years and its gone form one thing to another. and as you go on down through there and then you work you’re way down Grandville Avenue up Grandville Avenue, and then down into the city of Grand Rapids. Matter of fact at Clyde Park is where the city of Grand Rapids and the city of Wyoming meet. YAX: Oh ok. ROBSON: And so there on the corner used to be a a hardware store that it was the dpiest, junkiest hardware store you’d ever seen in your life. But if you wanted anything, if they didn’t have it upstairs they would find it in the basement. and it burned to the ground one time. And then behind them used to be Calvinators, which was, they used to make stoves, refrigerators, YAX: Oh ok. Page 8 �ROBSON: And things like that. and they that was a big company in there. Matter of fact for the Lee school district that was one of their big tax people, that was one of the properties that helped Lee school for many, many years and then they had Calvinators kind of fell on hard times, and then the main building, which was about 4 stories high they caught on fire, actually it was set on fire by, by somebody living in there or something, and it burned down, they tore it down so now if you go down there there’s, there’s quite a big vacant area. But some of the smaller parts of the factory are back in there and they’re all individual buildings now, but they’re all still parts of the original factory. and then right across the street there’s a big cement building, it looks like a bank, but that used to be the corporate headquarters for Calvinator in there. I don’t know what’s in there now. But there’s, it’s changed around there a lot. There’s some stores in there now and the used to be up on Grandville Avenue it was you’re white middle class was most of it. And it’s now changed quite a bit too. There’s a lot of Hispanic up in that area. there’s also some, some of your the blacks are up in that area. and that kinda continues on pretty much all the way down towards Grand Rapids and to the east toward what used to be South High School, which is now also a building that, that was a public school but, it has some department of help of some form in there you know that take care of families and stuff like that in there. and they do do some educating there too I understand but I don’t know how much. My, my cousins graduated from there. YAX: Oh ok. ROBSON: my mother went to school there. That’s what used to be South High School. Matter of fact I have a cousin who when he graduated he was the last class that was there. And, they had a chimney right, and this chimney it was a tradition for many years for the senior class to write their class year on it. Well when my cousin Russell was there they cancelled that. But somehow his graduating nber got written up there on the chimney. And nobody knew how it got there. YAX: Hmm. ROBSON: So Russell I’m gonna tell on you, [laughs]. My cousin was the one that did it. He went up there and painted it [laughter]. But, he, he he had 3 brothers, and a sister. they were my mother’s nieces and nephews, my cousins. 4 of the smartest kids I’ve ever known in my life. first of all my uncle was extremely smart. Unfortunately he ruined his life because of alcohol, which was too bad. His wife was just an absolute genius. I, I think that any, any, I mean she was just incredibly smart, and fortunately all the kids gained that. to be honest with you I don’t know where any of them are today. I know that they’re all still alive. There’s one of them lived in Hudson, er Byron center. The last I heard my, my cousin Russell I think lived, was retired from the navy and he was living I think in California or Florida. I don’t know, maybe he had a place in both. And I don’t know where the other two boys went. One used to live out on 68th street someplace, but he moved so I don’t know where he went. so I, I don’t keep real track of my family but I just know that, that most of them are middle income people. YAX: Do you keep track with your sisters? ROBSON: Yeah, yeah. Cuz they live close by. YAX: Ok. Page 9 �ROBSON: I have one that lives in, well, well, with one exception, which is my sister Martha. She lives in, in Florida. But occasionally we call once back and forth on the phone or something. and she is, she is actually my father’s daughter she is not my mother’s daughter. YAX: Mm ROBSON: and she was given up for adoption by her birth mother. And the thing about it is, is that she lived right here in Grand Rapids for a nber of years, and I even knew some of the same people she did. then my two older sisters, one lives in, in Hudsonville, the other one has passed away. But, they were my mother’s daughters. YAX: Mm hmm. ROBSON: and then my two younger sisters and myself we all had the same mother and father. And so there’s quite an intersession of families in there. my, my sisters, the two older sisters they’re father was in vaudeville. and he knew all of the big names in vaudeville. But, I, I tried to talk to my oldest sister and she, about what, and she was pretty young then so she didn’t, she couldn’t tell me a whole lot about them. Which I, I found, which too bad. Because a lot of the people that, that he knew, I mean I’ve heard them myself you know. YAX: Mm hmm. ROBSON: And some of them might be even heard, they’re, they’re entertaining you know. Fred Allen for one. Jimmy Durante for another. YAX: Oh wow. ROBSON: and a lot of the people that went through vaudeville George Burns a lot of the bands, I don’t remember all of the band people, but he, he, he knew a lot of the musicians at that time too. so he, he had you know, quite some connections. And, so it would have been, I wish I could have gotten or my sisters would have gotten more information you know, but that’s the way it goes. But just knowing that, that they knew some of the, some of the people that were the starters of the new, YAX: Yeah. ROBSON: Business of show business is quite, quite a shock when I knew about it you know, and I found it to be quite quite nice. quite interesting. but the family as a whole, my family, myself I’m middle class, by no means am I rich. I got some money yeah, I worked for a long time to get that money but I got some money. I have two daughters that I, I help out quite a bit. I would have had more money if I didn’t have to do that, [laughter] but, but I consider myself the dad and that’s what I have to do. You know, I have to help my family. I’m divorced. My, my ex wife’s family is all middle class farmers by nature most of them. They were Dutch they can, they can trace themselves to Dutch immigrants, from from Holland. I don’t know a lot about them. I just know that, I know her mother and father’s backgrounds a little bit. And we had a lot in common, you know as far as the background and stuff goes. her brothers were very smart, all of them. her sister who had a birth defect but it didn’t get in the way of raising three boys, and teaching school. she was a very good schoolteacher she retired from the white hall Montague area. and Page 10 �she just passed away here a few months ago. But the boys, one of her sons is extremely smart and he has a very good job writing programs for computers. He’s self-employed. she has another son that is, he is my daughters cousins that he lives in Florida with his wife. She is into the medical you know like elderly, helping the elderly you know as a nurses, as a nurse. and David is a, is very handy with his hands. He can do a lot of things, but, he suffers severely from arthritis. YAX: Mm hmm. ROBSON: Which is too bad. and their youngest brother lives up around the White hall area, even today and he has a good job at some company up there, I don’t know which one it is anymore but he has a good job and his wife is a schoolteacher. their they have some other cousins that, one of them I forget what he does but he’s got a, it’s a good white collar job, it’s in an office. He has another one that, that is very artistically inclined. For a long time he went out to Connecticut or somewhere, yeah I think it was Connecticut, he built furniture. YAX: Oh. ROBSON: as a request. You know specialties. You know one of a kind. U, he built some stuff for his mother and dad that was incredible. Just, and he, he graduated from what’s that design school here in Grand Rapids? YAX: Kendall ROBSON: Kendall. and he’s the one that doesn’t let any grass grow under his feet. [laughter]. He’s something else. [Interruption]. ROBSON: Sorry bout that. YAX: it’s ok [laughter]. ROBSON: but he, and he, he is moved back to Michigan now but he still works, or no he still lives out east but he, someplace, I don’t know. But anyway he still works with furniture, but he works more on a, on a, in a design portion of it now rather than a building part of it. And then their sister, their oldest sister, she graduated from nursing school and then she went on and got a masters degree in nursing I guess it was and then she, she does transcripts at home. taking and correcting insurance papers and, and medical papers so that the wording and stuff, and she does that at home. she has, she was married, she had two boys and now I think she’s got a, I don’t know if she’s married again but, I know she has a new, a new friend. but her mother and dad, he worked for Consumers, and Mary was a nurse. YAX: Wow. ROBSON: So you know, but, out of all of, all of these people that are, I’m related to, we’re all pretty much at the same level as far as we’re in the middle class I got one cousin that plays in a Dallas symphony but what his younger brother does I have no idea. but I know he has, he has a family and he works but I don’t know where it is. I’ve had I can’t say that, that they’re, there isn’t, I know there’s some Page 11 �parts of my family that have money, but they don’t flaunt it. They don’t you know, they use it for whatever and but, we all pretty much stay about the same and I, I tribute that to the way that most of us were brought up. We were brought up in that middle class white neighborhood you know. I remember going down to Ann Arbor visit my sister down when my brother in law was going to the University of Michigan. and that’s where I came in contact with my first black people on a daily basis. There was kids down there that we used to play on the playground with all the time. Come time to go home they’d go their way, we’d go ours. Next day we’d come back, and we’d play on the playground. YAX: How old were you at this point? ROBSON: At that time I must have been 8, 9 years old. but, I never, I don’t ever remember racial things being spoken in my family. or disregard for anybody. we had my, my, one of my older sisters, one of her best friends was a black girl that lived out West of, out off of West Chicago Drive. The street isn’t even there and neither are any of the 6 houses that were on that street. [laughter]. But they all used to be, when I, when I delivered the paper, the Grand Rapids press, they were all my customers. And I knew this family really well. They were really nice people. so you know, racially I didn’t, I was really quite ignorant about what was going on around me. we had some black kids at school. I didn’t, one of them was in the band played a saxophone I thought, and he was really good. I don’t, I remember when we had minstrel shows at, in high school. YAX: Mm hmm. ROBSON: but I don’t remember being actively aware of racial discrimination in those days. it just never occurred to me. or I don’t, and I don’t know if my parents were or not. I don’t know cuz I, like I say it was never and all my sisters and everything it was never discussed. They had, they had black, a black girlfriend. She, she had been to our house so it, I, that portion of relationships never bothered me until I got to be much older. then I found out what was going on and studied it more and, and I think I waffled between being a racist and a non racist like everybody else did and started, until I got to the point where I could really start rationalizing what was going on and so, well for heavens sakes all this time I thought we were already equal. YAX: Mm hmm. ROBSON: And it didn’t turn out that way obviously. Ha still hasn’t as far as that goes. But it, it was, it was I mean I played football with, with guys that were, we played against at the time we played against Reese Puffer from Muskegon area. YAX: Yeah ROBSON: And at that time Reese Puffer was primarily a black school. It was another football team. We didn’t care what color they were, we went out there and played football. YAX: So you had a mixed high school? Or ROBSON: Yeah it was. It only, was only one black family but they had I think they had, it was the Jones family. They had a daughter, and I think the two boys. Page 12 �YAX: Mm hmm ROBSON: And that was primarily it. Now the school is, is integrated with Hispanic, black, everything now. I think. I don’t know, I haven’t been over there in years but, it’s pretty much integrated to, to all of that today, that, a lot like I said earlier a lot of that, that area now is Hispanic and black mix. so that’s, that’s in the school over there now but my kids are, are both of my daughters went to Rogers and they, that was a mixed school. and I don’t know that they had a lot of problems there. Matter of fact one of the stars of the Rogers football team when Becky was a senior was a black kid. YAX: Hmm. ROBSON: and, and I know that, that he was, he was thought of very highly by everybody. I don’t know if it was because, if it was more of his talents or whatever, but he was a good kid. I mean I met him. I talked to him. He was a good kid. We had, then both of my daughters were in the band and they had mixed races in the band. and the black kids that they had in the band, I, were really good people. matter of fact I was in the band in high school, I played football, and ran track and stuff, and, but we had a, I remember one time we had three rivers band came up here. and we were gonna march in the tulip festival and enter into a competition at the, the Holt College football field over there after the parade and they were too. And it just so happened that we found out later on that we were both in the same flight. And but they needed, they were gonna come up here and they played a concert at our school and they, they were a pretty good-sized band, and they needed places to stay. Well at that time we had a house trailer YAX: Mm hmm ROBSON: For going camping with and we had all kinds of room. I mean that house that my parents lived in was pretty close to a hotel [laughter]. I mean we had, I don’t remember how many kids we had there. But three rivers had several blacks in their, in their band. And some of them didn’t come up here YAX: Hmm. ROBSON: But one of them did and he stayed with my parents. they didn’t have an assigned family for him and my mother says he will stay with us, and he did. The kid was more fun than you could shake a stick at. He played piano by ear, YAX: Wow. ROBSON: And my mother had a piano in the house so we had a great time. We had all of these kids, all of these girls, we had some of the, some of the kids from my daughter, er my sisters classes along with these girls, you know to help show em things and we had a great time. and this, out of all the kids that came up here the black boy was the only one that came over to my mother and father and hugged my mother and shook my fathers hand and thanked them for the hospitality. The rest of them said thanks but it was like you and I would say thanks to somebody. YAX: Right. Page 13 �ROBSON: But he went out and he, he emotionally got involved with them by shaking their hands and hugging my mother. And that was quite a bit. Quite something. but it still didn’t, it didn’t dawn on me personally that there were still problems. YAX: Yeah ROBSON: You know. Until we got into the what, the ‘60’s and stuff when the marches and things started to take place and, and it, it, it came around then and I was, by that time I was in the service and that. But we didn’t even seem to have that much problem in the service. [clears throat]. Our ship when I was aboard ship, we had blacks and Hispanics, and whites, YAX: Mm hmm ROBSON: And Jews, and everybody else. We’re all kinda you know, here’s Heinz 57 variety and we had one, one goal and that was to protect the United States. YAX: Mm hmm. ROBSON: You know. And so I didn’t think too much of it. I didn’t really didn’t think too much of it until after, actually I came home from California. Is when I seem to, maybe because it was, more people were talking about it. I had a supervisor at work make, make a, a remark one time in a meeting about equality and he said that in a meeting that he was in someone asked that if if I was a, if we were asked to work with a black guy you know that’s the way it had to be but they said what if a black guy refuses to work with a white guy. And my supervisor said well then you discuss it, and he used the n word. And and that was the first time that I can honestly say that I got kicked between the eyes when that, when I really started to pay attention to what was going on. YAX: Mm hmm. ROBSON: but even then I can't say that, that we had a problem with it blatantly, in other words out in the open, but it was there. it was obvious. Certain things that would happen at work you could see it. But what you did is like everybody else at the time, you just went about doing your job and let, YAX: Yeah ROBSON: Kind of hope that if you closed your eyes to it, it’d go away, you know. YAX: So how old were you when you went into the service? ROBSON: 18. YAX: So just right after high school? [Mood changes with change of topic from childhood to military] ROBSON: Yeah, yeah. I, I went in, I went, well, I was, yeah, yeah cuz I graduated on my 18th birthday, so I I went to J C for a short time to the first marking period. Well I played football down there too and then the grades came out and then I decided I wasn’t really going to be much good at college [laughter], at Page 14 �this point in time so, a friend of mine he and I, and he, I used to run against him in track. He went to Rogers but he was a friend of mine. [clears throat]. And we went down and signed up in the navy together. YAX: Why did you choose the navy? ROBSON: Well the Air Force wouldn’t take us cuz they wanted college education, YAX: Mmm ROBSON: And neither one of us wanted to be a ground pounder and neither one of us wanted to be a marine, so we just decided we’d go in the navy. [laughter]. And when we talked to the navy recruiter he made good on some things that we could go to school and stuff and get some education there too also. Not realizing that what he meant was they were navy schools for navy work. But still, they were good schools and he, he guaranteed that to us. YAX: Mm hmm ROBSON: And the other ones didn’t do that. So, with the exception of the Air Force that they wanted you to have a four-year degree. But, and I understand. But, so we went in the navy. He ended up on nuclear submarines. YAX: Ooh ROBSON: on the Polaris submarines and I ended up on the ships that look for submarines [laughter]. And so that’s the way, and you know I got, I got a lot of electronic schools and training while I was in the service leadership schools and stuff like that, that were valuable for military and stuff. and then and he got a lot of computer training, working with the, the polar, Polaris missiles and stuff. YAX: Mm hmm ROBSON: So he, he had he had a good education and I, and I got a good background to do what I did when I came back and joined a phone company. And he, he ended up last I knew about Ron, he was working for IBM. Now where he is today I don’t know. I haven’t, I haven’t heard from him in a long, long time. YAX: So how long did you serve in the navy? ROBSON: 4 years. 4 years active duty and then 2 years in the reserves but that was inactive reserve so I didn’t go to meetings or anything. YAX: Oh ok. ROBSON: The contract that I signed was a 6-year contract so I had to, I had to decide how, what I wanted to do you know. YAX: So that was early ‘60’s? ROBSON: That was 1962 through 64 was my active duty, Page 15 �YAX: So nothing, ROBSON: So I was officially out of the army, er out of the navy in 1966. In February ’66 is when my, is when my obligation to the navy ended. YAX: So there was nothing going on then was there? like, ROBSON: Yeah, there was. YAX: Was there, was there Korea or Vietnam? ROBSON: well I was in when, when Kennedy was killed, YAX: Oh! ROBSON: Matter of fact we were out in the pacific on an operation when the word came over that Kennedy had died and had been killed, had been assassinated and that a radio tower had been blown up in Arizona. And the, the group that we were working with were given immediate orders to head for the Panama Canal. YAX: Ooh. ROBSON: And we just made a u-turn and headed straight south. YAX: Mm hmm. ROBSON: by the time we got on station and got everything organized and everything, word had come that there was a single person that shot Kennedy and that that person had been killed. and then, but they, what we did is they asked us to stay on location for I think it was 32 hours, 2 days roughly. YAX: Mm hmm. ROBSON: A little over 2 days, day and a half, something like that. And so we did. And then we went back to our exercises and stuff. But, we immediately set to getting the ship war ready. Cuz we, no we didn’t have any, you know, the, the group did not know all of the details and so it just became straight go to this and be ready for anything. YAX: Mm hmm. ROBSON: So that’s what we did. And that was kind of nerve-racking. but the ship that I was on had been blown up during world war II, I mean it had hit a mine so. But it was ok. It floated. [laughter]. But YAX: You’d think they’d get new boats for that. ROBSON: Yeah. No they rebuilt this one. [laughter]. Put a new bow on it and everything. But yeah that was and then I think, [pause], I was stationed in Pearl Harbor when the first rangers quote advisors went to Vietnam. YAX: Mm hmm. Page 16 �ROBSON: These guys were, were something else. They were, they were, I remember seeing some of them go over on the, on the beach of liberty and stuff and you could comb your hair in the buttons on their, their uniforms. These guys were spit and polished. And they never went anyplace alone. There was at least two or maybe three of em together at all times. YAX: Hmm. ROBSON: but they were, they were the first Green Beret’s that went over there and we, I was, at the time I was stationed at the submarine base and 5:00 in the morning you’d hear those clowns running through the base [makes sounds to imitate the running], you know doing their calsenic’s or running through the base. But, they were good guys. They really were. All of them were, had to rank a sergeant. YAX: Mm ROBSON: And but they were really good guys. Yeah, you go to talk to these guys and you could talk to them anytime you wanted to, you know. if we’d meet, if we’d meet them on the, on the beach or something we’d sit there and I’d, I don’t know about the guys with me but I always liked talking to them, finding out where they were from and stuff. And, these guys were, were good guys. They were they knew that, where they were going, they knew what their job was gonna be and, and they knew that some of them probably wouldn’t come home. But they they were really good people. and they were very military people. I’ll say that much for them. [laughter]. But they were, their uniforms were spotless. I mean absolutely spotless. You couldn’t find a lint on their uniforms anyplace. Their boots, you could see your face in them, in their boots. YAX: My goodness. ROBSON: But they were, they were really, really squared away people. and they didn’t get in any trouble nobody gave them any trouble either. but they were good people. YAX: So you said you were in, ROBSON: I was stationed in, YAX: California? ROBSON: California when, when Kennedy got killed and I was stationed in Hawaii when Vietnam started. YAX: Now did you ever have to go over to Vietnam? ROBSON: No. No. No. when I was in Hawaii we went to what we called west pack. YAX: Mm hmm. ROBSON: Which was Western Pacific and that included a 6 month tour over there where we would go to, where did we go? We went to the Philippines, we stopped at the Philippines. We stopped at Hong Kong and then Japan. And and then back home to Hawaii. Well, I was also in when they did the atomic bomb test. When I was stationed in Hawaii they did the atomic bomb test in the South Pacific and blew up an island. Page 17 �YAX: Did you get to see it? ROBSON: Oh yeah. That is one thing that having seen an atomic bomb go off, is that I don’t ever, ever, ever want to see anyone, another one go off. I saw 2 or 3 of them go off and the best place to be if one goes off is right there underneath it because you won’t even know what hit you. It’ll, you’ll be a cinder in a blink of an eye. YAX: Mm hmm. ROBSON: [pause]. The first one we saw was set off at night and we were, I don’t know how far away we were. I know we were beyond the horizon. Horizons are 10 yard, 10 miles. YAX: Ok. ROBSON: Cuz that’s, the earth curves every, about every 10 miles. And, when that mushroom cloud came up over that horizon, first of all it was one of the most spectacular, and beautiful things I ever saw in my life. YAX: Mm hmm. ROBSON: The colors in it were so vivid, it was just hard to explain. And then you think about, that was the energy that was released, I mean that wasn’t all the energy that was released. That’s just the energy that burn up. YAX: Mm hmm. ROBSON: it was scary. It really was. It was scary. they dropped, the biggest one that they dropped turned out some of the lights in Honolulu, from the flash. It was in the newspaper out there that, that some of the traffic, er some of the lights were affected by it, which is incredible that man could make something like that. And the last one that, that went off they dropped from a B 52, and it went off 500 feet above the ground. YAX: hmm. ROBSON: And, when they let us come out topside it looked like daylight but, it was green. The, the color was green. Cuz it was overcast. YAX: Mm hmm. ROBSON: And it actually was about 4:30 in the morning. [laughs] YAX: Wow. ROBSON: There wasn’t supposed to be any sun. And then it slowly faded away, and I mean really, it was, it faded away so slowly that your eyes didn’t really realize what was happening. YAX: Mm hmm. Page 18 �ROBSON: until all of a sudden it was dark again. And, we were quite a ways away from that but the first one was enough for me. I, I know, I know I’ve, I’ve thought about it many time. About an atomic bomb, and every time I see the ones that were dropped during World War II I, this is gonna be hard to explain but I, I think how lucky the people were that were at ground zero versus the people that were 10, 15, 20 miles away. YAX: Right. ROBSON: Because those people are still suffering YAX: Yeah. ROBSON: From the radiation burns and stuff. [phone call] YAX: So why were they setting them off, I mean if it was after World War II? ROBSON: In World War II they were setting them off to end the war. YAX: Right. ROBSON: They were setting them off to make the Japanese surrender really. YAX: Yeah. ROBSON: Because if the allies had invaded Japan the loss of life would have just been catastrophic. And, Truman made the decision to drop the bomb, and they dropped the first one but the Japanese wouldn’t give up so they dropped the second one, and the Japanese instantly decided that enough is enough. YAX: Yeah. ROBSON: And that’s why. And then, in the sixties when they were doing it, when they were testing them, it was because it was before the nuclear test ban treaties and stuff went in. YAX: Oh, OK. ROBSON: So everybody was testing. And then we tested some out in Utah and some of the other places in the silos, and in underground bunkers. They were blowing them up under there. But there underground, less radioactivity was released into the air. YAX: Yeah. ROBSON: And they dropped a couple of hydrogen bombs also. But the atomic bomb, people talk about it like it’s a pill. And it is. It is a very deadly pill. Like I say, the best place to be if one goes off is right at ground zero. Because at least it will be over for you, but the people who are out at the fringes will suffer for years and years and years. As a matter of fact, the one island, Christmas Island, out there where they had people that used to live, and they moved the people off the island to another island. And they Page 19 �won’t let them go back there because it’s still radioactive. And the half-life of radioactivity is twenty-five thousand years. That’s the half-life. So when you reach twenty-five thousand years, that’s half-life you’ve another twenty-five thousand for another half-life, and another twenty-five thousand for another half-life. In other words, nobody will live long enough to see that radioactivity be nothing. YAX: Wow. ROBSON: That’s why it’s so dangerous, that’s why it’s terrible. Nasty, nasty stuff. But yet, you can harness it and do good things with it. But at the same time it’s just [moment of silence] Yeah every time I think about it I don’t wanna see one go off. YAX: So do you disagree with the decision to drop them on Japan, or what are your thoughts on that? Since you’ve seen what it can do. ROBSON: Well, what I saw in the sixties, that one bomb was more powerful than both of those put together in Japan. However, the bomb that they dropped on Japan wouldn’t fit in this room. YAX: Right. ROBSON: It was hungous. Because of all of the electronics and everything that had to go inside of this, in order to set it off and to get the chain reaction going inside of it. And those bombs never touched the ground. They went off above the ground. Because it sent the force down and then the shock waves went out. YAX: Oh, OK. ROBSON: And everything went with it. I mean that’s why, if you’ve ever seen some of the videos from the cameras where they had a simulated village, and they dropped on and it looks like a wind storm. And that’s all of the radioactivity, carried with all of the power of this thing. And, it just blows things over. I guess, I mean I was just a child at that time, when they dropped the bomb. I know that I had a brother-in-law that was in World War II, I had an uncle that was in during World War II, both of them came home. My uncle trained pilots, even though he was an enlisted man, he trained pilots. In propeller planes, because they didn’t have jets to speak of. And my brother-in-law worked in an ammunition depot. Well he only had one eye, he had a glass one. He got shot by his dad hunting, it was a hunting accident. And he accidentally got shot by his dad and it put his eye out. So they couldn’t send him overseas so they kept him on, and I had a brother-in-law who served in Korea, and he was on a gun crew. He was a spotter for a gun crew. They were all killed except him and the other guy who was him down below. And they said he was a different person when he came home, cause I didn’t know him previously. I had a brother-in-law who was in the air force during Korea. But he had a desk job. But it was handling important stuff. And I had a brother-in-law who was in during Korea, or just towards the end of Korea. And he was at a supply depot, because that’s what his background was in. And he was good at it and they needed people who were good at that for logistics and stuff. My cousin, that I told you about from high school, he was an officer in communications and he had a top secret clearance. And when Vietnam broke out he was called back to active duty. And that was when he retired, he was from the Navy. These guys, none of them had, none of them, witnessed an atom bomb. I don’t know all Page 20 �the truth about the atom bomb in World War II. I do know that one of the biggest reasons was to end the war, they knew it would end the war. It killed thousands of people, innocent people. And it maimed even more. Ground zero is still there, they haven’t restored it. It looks just like it does in the pictures. It did end the war that’s what they wanted them to do. That’s what both bombs did. They ended the war. One of the stories was that because the allies were getting closer and closer to Japan, they had pretty well beat up their air force, and had pretty well beat up their navy. But they had hundreds of thousands of people that they could put in as infantryman. And the casualties to invade Japan, like I said, based on history, would have been catastrophic for both sides. It probably would have gone on longer, obviously, if they hadn’t dropped the bomb. But the allies probably would have won out. Because we had everything the Japanese didn’t have. We had more resources than they did. Based on history, I didn’t have to make that decision, but I’m sorry, to a point, that it was the United States that used it the first time, but it was the United States that used it the first time. Because if any of these other dictators or countries that have or want to build a nuclear bomb want to see what it does, look at the films. As far as a nuclear proliferation goes, I agree with that. I mean we have guns that can shoot an atomic bomb shell fifty, sixty miles or a hundred miles. I mean it’s stupid. We got ships that can launch thirty-two missiles. Each one of them could be equipped if we had to. It’s stupid, what do you gain by blowing up half the world? Then you can’t live in it anyway. You know? So you go the biggest and the loudest toys, big deal. I don’t see a single conqueror that wanted to rule the world ever succeed. I don’t think any of them succeeded. And had they, the Roman Empire was probably the closest anybody came because they controlled so much of Europe. And look what happened, they folded from the inside. The British Empire, for years the sun never sat on the British Empire. It does now. YAX: [laughs] ROBSON: Because most of those countries are now independent. So you don’t gain anything by ruling other people. I don’t see any positive stuff coming out of it. All I can see, is thank God that the bombs that we did drop are not the bombs we have today. YAX: Yeah. ROBSON: So you know we got ships floatin’ out there all over the world. We got airplanes, we got so many ways of delivering atomic weapons. Just conventional bombs, for crying out loud, will kill hundreds or thousands of people. We don’t need atomic weapons to do that. And the fact that people, Japan is a good example of that when they’re, when that powerhouse got hit by the tsunami. We really don’t know all there is to know about atomic energy. We know it can be useful. But at the same time, it’s kinda like how long before it turns around and bites you. It’s kinda like a rattlesnake, you can pick it up for a long time but eventually you’re gonna get bit. And then you hear that the United States has one hundred and four of them built over faults, and they knew the faults were there when they built them. What does this tell you? You know? The newest one that was built, that I know of, in Michigan was up north near Charlevoix. What is it Flat Rock or whatever they call it? Little Rock. The other one, they tore it down because it was too small to serve the area, plus it was one of the first ones built. And it was falling apart anyway. So they built a newer one, bigger one, more efficient one, to feed a bigger area up there. A B-52 crashed in Lake Michigan, making a bomb run. On that one up there. Strategic air command used to practice bomb runs, and it crashed up there off of Lake Michigan. The said there Page 21 �were no nuclear weapons on board that plane. Nobody ever bothered to argue about it. But they did get all the weaponry off the plane. Even though it was laying in the water. So they’re vulnerable, you can’t protect them all. South Haven, for crying out loud, it’s built right on the beach for Pete’s sake. YAX: [laughs] ROBSON: The reason why is it was built so close to the water was just for that reason, it was close to the water. YAX: Right. ROBSON: They could pump the fresh water in, keep it cool, pump the hot water back out. Well they’re doing the same thing with the power plant over by Grand Haven. The Conser’s plant over there, it’s a coal operated plant, but they’repumping water in, and they’repumping water out. And it’s changing the environment in the Great Lakes. You have the big one up by Ludington up there, where they pump all of the water up into the reservoir, which is humongous, it’s one giant lake. But it goes up through big screws, kills all kinds of fish. And then when they want to generate electricity they release it and let it flow down, spin the turbines and generate electricity. We have power that comes from up there. So we got a lot of things we got to try and answer. But nuclear bombs are probably the one answer I don’t want to see anybody use. YAX: So what are your thoughts compared to when you went into the service to now, on the U.S. as a country? Did you have more patriotism when you went into the service, and then lost it as the U.S. has developed? ROBSON: No. YAX: Same thing? ROBSON: I don’t feel any different. I mean, it’s like anything I’ve done in my life, there are always things that I don’t like. Decisions that people have made that I don’t like. When you’re in the military you may not like the decisions, but you kind of, sort of, have no choice but to follow the laws. YAX: OK. ROBSON: And especially if you’re in the navy, the shortest distance to land from that ship is ten miles at any given time. And it is usually straight down. So you don’t have a lot of choice[Both laugh.] You know? But, I get very upset when I see Americans destroy the American Flag. I get very upset when I see Americans cuss the government. I get very upset when I see people, in our own country, disrespect our president and even our congress. And I don’t like anything that’s going on right now, but that doesn’t mean I have to disrespect the people that are there. And I probably do. [Both laugh.] By some of the things I say, you know? But, basically it’s not the people, it’s the position that they hold is what deserves the respect, you know? The president of the United States, that job doesn’t come with a hand book. Congress, to be a senator doesn’t come with a handbook. To be a representative doesn’t come with a handbook per say. But, what it comes with is an expectancy to be an adult at all times. Page 22 �YAX: Yeah. ROBSON: You know? And to understand, to make it a point to understand what the constitution says what you can do and can’t do, what the laws read. There was a discussion the other night on T.V. about when Ford pardoned Nixon. I understand why he did it, I didn’t agree with it, but I understand why he did it. The thing is, is that there is nobody that I know of, in this country, that’s a citizen or a non-citizen, that is above any of those laws in this country. I don’t care how much money they have, or how little money they have, nobody is above the laws of this country in my opinion. And I feel the same way as I always have, it’s my country, if I want to kick it I’ll kick it, but at the same time, don’t try and take it away from me. And that’s kind of the way I felt when I was in the service, it’s my ship, I live on it. And I’ll fight with the guys aboard my ship, but if you fight with one of the guys aboard my ship, you’re going to fight with me. YAX: Right. ROBSON: I think that’s the way it should be. I don’t expect everybody to like what’s going on, but I expect everybody to be respectful of the people. Just like I don’t like what the cops are doing, or the local governments are doing about these people that are, peacefully, demonstrating. Using tear gas and things to get people to move. I also don’t think that if they were told “you can’t be in this section of town because it hinders the business of the overall town.” YAX: Like downtown? ROBSON: Yeah. I don’t think they, well I mean, in some places like in Chicago they used tear gas and stuff. YAX: Oh, like the recent protests? ROBSON: Yeah. They used the recent protests because they I agree that there was a lot more that should have been done, when the crash came. There is obviously some things that were not done according to Hoyle. They may not have been outright crimes. But they definitely should have been looked into, to make sure that what they did was out of stupidity, and not out of want and disrespect for the law. That any one of those CEO’s, or CFO’s, companies, any one of them I think should have been taken out of office. And I think some of those big banks should have been broken up. They broke up AT&T because they were afraid of AT&T, they were making a billion dollars every quarter. They were huge, and they broke them up. But, they made kind of a mistake. They made seven AT&T’s. [Both laugh.] ROBSON: And they didn’t put anything in the restrictions about getting back together. In other words, buying each other out to make them bigger. And that’s what has happened, you don’t have the seven operating companies, per say, anymore. Ameritech, or SBC as they were then, bought AT&T for sixtyfour billion dollars or something like that, it was a steal. Because we paid four hundred million dollars, or billion dollars whatever it was, for Southeast Bell, just to get the cellular part of it. Because that’s the way the deal was. And also, the CEO, at the time, of SBC was a true in the wool AT&T man. And at the time the present management of AT&T was running them into the ground, and he couldn’t stand it. And Page 23 �that’s why we bought AT&T. And that still isn’t complete, that’s still going on. In fact, I used to laugh when I looked at my pay check because it said up in the corner “Michigan Bell”. [Both laugh] And it was drawn out of a bank in Louisiana. But what it comes down to is that, all of the franchises and stuff were in Michigan Bell’s name. Even though you change the name of the corporation, you still have all of these individual things that don’t change because it would cost too much and take too much, you wouldn’t be gaining anything anyway. But, I always used to laugh and say “ah I’m still working for Michigan Bell”. YAX: So, going back to like service and stuff, a couple years it was really big, people protesting service peoples funerals. ROBSON: Well, that particular group, I don’t know if they had any of their members die in the service or if their members had objections to going into service, I don’t know. YAX: Well what they were protesting… ROBSON: I didn’t agree. I knew what they were protesting. They were saying God was allowing Americans to die because of homosexuality and other things, but I think homosexuality was the biggest thing they were using at the time, or was one of the things. And I’m thinking to myself, “what’s that got to do with it?” But, I don’t, as far as the first amendment goes, the freedom of speech and the right to assemble, yeah OK do it. But remember that you and I have a right to bury your dead in a peaceful matter, as much as I have a right to demonstrate. But, even if I demonstrate I don’t have the right to interfere with what you do. Because then I have crossed a line. Or vice versa. And when you’ve crossed that line, then I think it’s time that you, that one should have legal sanctions. I don’t care how much noise they make, as long as, if they have got to stay on that side of the side walk. I don’t like it, I don’t like it at all. I think it shows total disrespect, and I think what it is, it’s one man it’s another Waco, Texas all over again. The way I look at it. YAX: another what? ROBSON: Another Waco. Where they had the one guy, he got all of these people in there and then the house caught on fire and they all burned up; in Waco, Texas. YAX: When was that? ROBSON: Just, not too long ago. A few years ago. YAX: Oh, I don’t watch the news very often [laughs]. ROBSON: I forget what this guy’s name was. But anyway, he thought that he was the messiah or something, was God or something, and he got all of these people in there and all of these girls in there and was having relationships with young girls, and all the children that were in there. But they had fifty caliber machine guns and they were armed to the hilt. Well I don’t know that the people in this church are that way, but this is the same guy that was going to burn the Quran. This group that’s been protesting the cemetery, or the funeral, and he was the same guy that was going to burn the Quran. And he didn’t do it. I think there was a lot of pressure put on him not to do it, and because he thinks that these people are all heathens and everything else. I don’t agree with the war, I didn’t agree with it Page 24 �when Bush started it. I thought it was a case of trying to save face because his father was, when his father was in war he was forced out, you know, and he didn’t finish the job or whatever.And personally I’m getting a little sick and tired of the U.S. going into these limited wars and letting the people in Washington run them. It has been that way since Korea. Truman wouldn’t let MacArthur go beyond the thirty-eight parallel, which divides the country so we ended up with two Koreas. And in Vietnam, Johnson didn’t want to blow up the country and go after it full hawk the way they should have. And that was an unpopular war just like the ones were going into now, the only difference is, is that were welcoming the soldiers back now with a little more enthusiasm and appreciation than we did for the guys and gals from Vietnam. And that’s too bad because I had some friends in Vietnam, and I know what they went through over there, I was glad they came home in one piece. YAX: Right. But I wish people would go back to the days of civility and honoring your neighbor. I know it sounds a little biblical, but it doesn’t take that much, it really doesn’t. I don’t like everything that I do. This sounds like a self-incrimination, which it probably is, but if I haven’t hurt anybody when I did it, then I don’t feel too bad about it. Because most of the things I do, I do more to just break down some stress, it’s my way to deal with stress. And I figure if I go down I’ll take everybody with me, and we’ll all have a good time doing it. [Both laugh.] ROBSON: But I don’t like the way they did it, and you haven’t heard too much about them lately. But they’ve had some pretty serious losses filed against them recently here, and it has kind of quieted them down here. Kind of like the abortion issue I think is one that can really become a sticky wick. We got the law that abortion is legal. OK, fine. We’ve got laws that say that you can’t use federal government money. OK, fine. That’s the law. And now everybody else wants to add their two cents worth to it. Which, to me, is nothing more than duplication, and time wasted. I don’t agree with what happened out west, when that guy went into the church and killed that doctor. I don’t, I can’t even condone that. That guy had no right to take that doctor’s life. Just like I have no right to take yours or any other. I don’t believe that destroying a person’s private life by publishing their phone numbers and their address, and their children and everybody else. I don’t believe that’s the way to deal with an issue. These people are trying to put themselves above everybody else, using the old quotation, they’re holier than everybody else. And they’re not, they’re not different than you and me. They put their pants on one leg at a time, you know? So I don’t know where they get off trying to be so radical. In the paper, recently I read about a young boy, nineteen years old, killed an eighteen year-old. Because he thought that the eighteen year-old had taken advantage of his ex-girlfriend. So what does he do? He stabs the guys twenty-five times, but that isn’t what killed him. What killed him was when he cranked him in the head with a shovel. So what did the kid gain? Not a thing. Like the boy’s father said, “all you have to do is call the cops if that’s what you think”, it would have solved the problem. You know? Your family wouldn’t be feeling the way they do because you’re going to spend the rest of your life in prison, my family wouldn’t be without a son. And there’s a girl out there no that can’t feel too proud of herself, because of what he did. So there’s a minimum of three families that have been affected by this. Anytime the radicals decide to do something it is narrow, and I don’t think they look at it from a broad picture point of view. And I Page 25 �don’t think they intend to. Just like the animal rights people who burned down that laboratory in Michigan State a few years ago. That’s a crying shame they did that. They destroyed a lot of medical information. We were here to be put in charge of the animals, and whether it sounds right or wrong to use animals as guinea pigs, no pun intended. [Both laugh] I didn’t create the animals with some of the DNA that they’ve got in them, and that’s close to you and me. But, if it helps to make my life easier, and if one of those little critters dies, I’m sorry, but that little critter can take credit for saving a lot of lives. It might seem inhumane, but take one of those people and do one of those experiments on them once. And if they think it’s inhumane, look what they’d have to go through. And chances are, the human body being what it is, they’re not going to find a cure out of the human body anyway. YAX: Right. ROBSON: Although there are people out there that have certain strains of DNA in them that do have some positive things that could be used. I understand radicals have their place, they have their rights just like I do. But, I don’t agree with all that they do, especially when it comes to taking life. And when it comes to, I brought up about the abortion thing, I think that a woman should be able to go to her doctor, with her husband, and say, “We don’t want this baby. It wasn’t planned.” And it’s early enough, I think abortion would OK that way. And I think the husband should have a word in it as much as the wives do. And maybe that’s why so many men are the radicals, I don’t know. [Both laugh.] But, tomorrow my opinion of that could change, I don’t know. I’ve had sisters who have had miscarriages. My ex-wife had a miscarriage. I know what it did to my wife, mentally for a while. And, I know what it did to my sisters, mentally for a while. And, if they had, I know my sisters well enough, I don’t think they would have had an abortion if their child could have lived. I don’t think there was anything wrong with the child, it was just that their body wasn’t ready to have a child. I don’t know. And, in the case of nowadays, I think spina bifida is one of the things that if they catch it early enough in a fetus they can fix it, and the child will be born without it. That hole will be taken care of and the child will progress through pregnancy normally. I read that in the reader’s digest, or someplace, I don’t remember. But they can do that, if they know that the baby has that problem. And there’s other things that they can do with the fetus, that if they’re aware of it, they can fix it while it’s still in the mother’s womb. And the child will be born normal. One of the things with abortion is that people want a perfect child. When you decide to have a child you always flip a coin, and it always lands on the edge. It doesn’t land on heads or tails, it lands on the edge. And that is just the coin’s way of saying “I don’t know either.” You know? I remember when my wife was pregnant; they asked us, “what do you want, a boy or girl?” And we said that we didn’t care, as long as it was healthy. So we had two girls. Which just adds the toll up of people in my life that are female. [Both laugh.] ROBSON: So it doesn’t make a whole lot of difference. YAX: So you should understand women fairly well then? ROBSON: No I don’t. [Both laugh.] I sat one day and figured out all the women in my family and all the women on the outside of my family. And I sat there, looked myself right, square in the eye and said, “You know, I have absolutely no idea what women are about.” [Both laugh.] And I’m not going to lie, I don’t know. I mean I know some of the things that women like, but I don’t know what goes on in a Page 26 �woman’s body or in her mind. I know a lot of things that go on in a woman’s body because I went through it went I was married, and I have five sisters and two daughters; two mothers and two grandmothers. I mean, mother and mother-in-law. I can’t even count all the nieces I got. And all the young ladies in my life and all the young ladies that I’ve known up at Applebee’s, you being one. But, I don’t know there’s things about you ladies that I don’t know, and there’s things about you doctors don’t even know. [Both laugh.] ROBSON: So I don’t feel too bad. Sometimes it’s true, you can’t live with you and you can’t live without you. You know? And it works both ways. So there’s when women can’t live with men and there’s times they can’t live without them. Women can’t figure out men, and don’t feel bad because we can’t either. [Both laugh.] YAX: Alright last question; it’s kind of a big one. Looking back at your life what are some life lessons that you’ve come up with, and is there anything in your life you wish you could take back or do over. ROBSON: Oh boy. [Both laugh.] There are so many things that I would do over. But, I think [silence and indiscernible words]. I remember there was two young girls in my life who I really cared for. One of them got pregnant by another guy while we were going steady, so that hurt, and then another girl that I was going with, when I went into the service, I told her not to wait for me. Because I didn’t know where I was going to go, or when I was going to come home. I knew I was going to be in for four years, but that’s a long time to ask somebody to wait. And I wish that I had, in a roundabout way, I had asked her to stay for me. But I didn’t. And one of the mistakes I made was when I got married right after I got out of the service. And that was a bad mistake. I wasn’t any more ready to get married than the man in the moon. YAX: So you were twenty-two or twenty-three? ROBSON: Yes, I was around twenty-three, twenty-four somewhere around there. And that marriage ended in a divorce, I left her and came back here. I was single for four years, so I played the field quite a bit. That’s when I did a lot of stupid things. When I finally met my wife I thought, when I first met her I didn’t know she was married. She was going through a divorce and I didn’t know that, it was a couple of months before I found out. So we kind of played it sort of cool. I like her mom and dad. The amazing thing is that I knew one of her older brothers, I knew him from high school. YAX: And you guys met in California? ROBSON: No I met her when I came back here. YAX: Oh, OK. ROBSON: But I knew him from high school because I ran track against him. He went to Comstock Park. But my first marriage I did a lot of dumb things; a lot of dumb, stupid, immature things. And the best thing I did was when I left her, I did her a favor and I’m sure she knew that. And, for four years I just sat around, I kind of played the field, but I did a lot of thinking. In the meantime I had gotten a good job with the phone company. I was living at home, I was the only kid at home, both my younger sisters were married by then. I had a lot of time to think and do things on my own, and I decided it was about Page 27 �time to grow up a little bit. The military helped me a lot, to grow up, it did a lot of good things for me. But anything you do in life, I’m sure that if you meet any of your high school friends who didn’t go to college, you can feel a difference. You feel different. Not about them, but mentally you know there’s something different between the two of you. And that’s how I felt. So I made up my mind that I was going to do everything I could not to make the same mistakes that ruined my first marriage, when I married my second wife. And, I honestly, truthfully don’t know why she left me. Because I was working really hard not to be a pain in her neck, but I know I became one, just out of frustration. So we got divorced and we had the two girls. Well fortunately, the two girls, one was out of high school and I think on was a sophomore or a junior then. But one thing I learned about divorce was that the older the children are the harder it is on them, it makes no difference. It’s hard on young kids, but time will heal youngsters I think a little better. Unless there’s a lot of physical things involved, or a lot of abuse, physically or otherwise. I know a lot of the decisions my girls made was based on what they felt they had to make, because they didn’t know if they could trust my decision, or their mother’s. And I know, based on that, is partly why I do what I do today for my kids. But, it’s also because my mother and father never asked me any questions, they let me stay at home, they didn’t ask me why I broke up with my first wife, they didn’t make over demanding demands on me, they left their door open for me, and I have done the same thing for my girls. Up at Applebee’s I do a lot of listening, if you watch me, I’m not always talking. And I’m just watching and listening to what is going on around me, and it has helped me a lot. Knowing that the way they were talking is the way I was headed that same way so why don’t I change? Or, “I wonder if I was to ask this person a question, would I get an honest answer?” or “why don’t I just tell them I’m your friend and I’ll be here if you need me.” YAX: Yeah. ROBSON: I’m finding out that, as I get older, that means more than anything. And the mistakes I’ve made I can’t really correct them. But, I can do my damnedest to not make them again. And, sometimes I get a little carried away, but overall I try hard. That’s one of the reasons why I do some of the things I do in church. I like doing the sermons when they ask me to, I like doing the readings when it’s my turn. I don’t know if I like being on the church council or not. [Both laugh.] Because I was on it before and I found it to be a small, you know, it’s good, good things happen. And I’ve always said anybody that belongs to a church, should be involved on their church council somehow, if they want to know anything about their church. I’ve had a couple of pastors here that are good friends, one of them, his wife was a good friend of my wife’s. The pastor that’s in the nursing home right now, is a retired colonel from the army. He was a chaplain. I consider him a friend of mine and the present pastor we got is a friend of mine, I consider him a friend of mine. So I do like that, and it helps me sometimes to remember. YAX: Very cool. Well, thank you so much Bob. END OF INTERVIEW Page 28 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/05e8e38e9243d22c5d94c0e2ddeab3b0.mp3 7228e6e9ba7e061ed824f60fca4ec970 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Robson_Robert Title A name given to the resource Robert Robson audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Robson, Robert Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource LeMieux, Kyle Hengesbac, Amanda Yax, Tara Description An account of the resource Robert Robson is a military veteran who was born and raised in Grand Rapids. He signed a contract with the navy in 1962 and spent 4 years in active duty and 2 years in the inactive reserves. He has a lot of memories from his time in the navy and talked about his views on the military and being a veteran in the United States. Growing up in Grand Rapids he had a lot of stories about some of the things that have been changing in the area including diversity. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Veterans--Personal narratives Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-10-26 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5da2b7d08ef29ae62f15a9b6fda8ee6e.mp4 243309637396203599edfdad69a2ecd8 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5df7d63d8d09b23ac5391f7a001ac2f5.pdf eeb7d8fe4ca0bee4660893e27f3977a0 PDF Text Text Robson, Sally Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Name of War: Vietnam War Interviewee’s Name: Sally Robson Length of Interview: (38:04) Interviewed by: James Smither and Janet Coryell Transcribed by: Chelsea Chandler Interviewer: “Okay, Sally, begin with a little bit of background on yourself. To start with, where and when were you born?” I was born in Muskegon, Michigan at Hackley Hospital. I graduated— Interviewer: “In what year?” I was born in 1937—January—and I graduated from high school there, went to Albion College, got my teaching degree— Interviewer: “Okay. Now you’re going very fast, so we’re going to roll things back a little bit here. Okay, so what was your family doing for a living when you were a kid?” My father owned a steel company in Muskegon, and we had—I had wonderful parents, and we went to the Methodist church there. And then we had a home on Lake Michigan that I spent six months out of the year in, and then lived in town six months out of the year. Interviewer: “Okay. Now in your—Now you’re a little kid during World War II, and I take it having a steel business during World War II was a good thing?” (1:06) Yes, it was. It was very good actually. Yes, it was. Interviewer: “Okay, and you’re really too young to remember sort of Depression per se or whatever.” No, I don’t remember that. Interviewer: “Now do you have any kind of memories of the war years?” My biggest memory is that—Was my mother and sister and I sitting at the radio and listening to news of World War—I was just little—and my mother with tears coming down her cheeks. And I remember feeling bad that my mother felt bad because I didn’t really understand what was going on. I had cousins on Iwo Jima and Guadalcanal and one that flew over Africa, and my father had cousins in the war. So it was a very sad time. It’s scary. Very scary. �Robson, Sally Interviewer: “Yeah. Now were you doing well enough that you weren’t really affected by rationing or things like that, or…?” I do remember buying war bonds. You know, going to school and buying war bonds, and I don’t remember rationing really. It maybe happened, but I don’t remember it. (2:09) Interviewer: “Okay. All right, so now—So, basically, now did you—So you go through the school system in Muskegon. So what year did you graduate?” I graduated in 1955. Interviewer: “Okay, and then—And you went to Albion after that.” Yes, yes. Interviewer: “All right, and then trained to be a teacher.” Right. Interviewer: “Okay. Why Albion?” Well, I didn’t really want to go to college at all because I wanted to stay home. But I was such a home person, and so—But my sister intervened and said to my parents, “You better make Sally go away to college because otherwise she’ll be here the rest of her life.” Interviewer: “This was your older sister? What was her name?” My older sister, Nancy, and she died a few years ago. She lived in Petoskey, and we were very close. But anyway, so I chose Albion just because it was a Methodist school. I’d heard about it through my church, and that’s really why I chose it. Interviewer: “And was Nancy in college herself?” Yes, she went to Hope College for a year and then graduated from Michigan. Interviewer: “Okay. All right. Now—Good. We’re interviewing you in part because you wound up being married to a doctor who served in the Vietnam War, and we’re getting— recording stories who went through—So at what point in your life do you meet your husband?” I met him really my freshman year at Albion, and we started dating our sophomore year and got pinned. And that was it. Interviewer: “Can you explain what ‘got pinned’ meant because a lot of people today will not know what that means?” �Robson, Sally Oh, that’s right. That—You wore a pin. Your husband’s fraternity pin. He was a Delta Tau Delta, and I was a Delta Gamma. And I was in a sorority, and so you got pinned, which meant that you were engaged to be engaged kind of thing. Interviewer: “Okay. Now did you get married after you finished school, or while you were still in school?” No, we got married after his freshman year in medical school. Interviewer: “Okay. All right. Now were you in the same class at Albion?” Yes, we were in the same class. Interviewer: “All right, so he starts medical school, and where does he go to medical school?” (4:15) Michigan. University of Michigan. Interviewer: “All right, and so what did you do then right after you graduated?” I taught school in Walled Lake, which is a town near Ann Arbor, and lived with two other girls there. And it was fun and wonderful, and— Interviewer: “So wait. This was before you got married?” Yes, a year before we got married. We didn’t get married because Larry wanted to make sure that he was secure and could get through his freshman year of medical school, which I always knew he could. But he was worried about that, so… Interviewer: “What did you teach?” I taught second grade. I loved it. It’s just—Loved it. Interviewer: “How big was the school?” My school? Interviewer: “Yeah, the one you were teaching in.” Oh, gosh, I don’t know. It had two second grades, I know, and lots of—You know, it was a great time really. I had a lot of fun. Interviewer: “All right, and so did you just teach for the one year, or did you stay around?” �Robson, Sally No, then when I—When we got married, I taught in Ypsilanti at an Erikson school, and there I met some wonderful friends. So then I taught then until Larry—Until we—Until—Through Larry’s first year of internship, which was here at Blodgett Hospital. Interviewer: “Okay, so how long did it take him to get through medical school?” Well, it was four years. Interviewer: “It was four years. Okay. All right, and then he had an internship and then a residency?” He had a year of internship, four years of general surgery residency, then he went in the service for two years, and then took a year of residency in vascular surgery at Henry Ford Hospital in Detroit. (6:17) Interviewer: “Okay. Were you teaching all the time that he was doing that?” No, no, I didn’t teach after I had my son. Interviewer: “Oh, okay, and when was he born?” He was born in 1964. Interviewer: “Okay. All right. Now in the period there where, you know, you’re married and he’s going through his medical training and then the internship and the residency and so forth, did he know he was going to have to go in the service at some point?” Yes, he had signed on. He went to Detroit. He had to sign on for the—It’s called a Berry Plan, and so that guaranteed that he, you know, wouldn’t be drafted right away. That he could finish his residency in general surgery. But he knew then that he had to go into the Navy for two years. Interviewer: “Okay, and so what year did he actually go in?” Let’s see. That would have been what? Would have been in 1968, I believe. Yes. Interviewer: “Okay, so your son was four years old.” Yes, he was four, and my daughter was a year old. Interviewer: “And their names are…?” Bill and Becky. Interviewer: “Okay. All right, so as he’s going through his residency, the Vietnam War is heating up substantially.” �Robson, Sally Yes. Interviewer: “All right. Now had he chosen his branch of service already? Did he know—” Yes, he chose the Navy. Interviewer: “Why the Navy?” He said he liked the uniform. Interviewer: “And how did you feel about the uniforms?” Oh, well, they were fine. Of course, I wish he hadn’t gone at all. Interviewer: “Yeah. Okay. Now basically—So when—So you were already basically living in the Grand Rapids area at the point when he actually has to go off into the service, or…?” (8:13) No, no. No, no. We—He went into the service after his residency, and we were sent to Corpus Christi, Texas for his first year of Naval duty. And we lived there for seven months with our children, and then he was called to go to Vietnam. Interviewer: “Okay. Let’s go down to Corpus Christi now. You’ve got two kids. You’re going down there. What kind of setup did you have? Did you live on base? Off base?” No, they didn’t have officer housing at the time, so we bought a house, which wasn’t—Was nice at the time, but there were problems afterwards. I’ll just put it that way. Interviewer: “Yeah, well, you weren’t going to be staying there very long.” Well, we—No, just two years—we hoped—and we didn’t—When we moved there, they said, “Oh, you won’t be sent to Vietnam. Nobody from here has ever gone to Vietnam.” And then, of course, he got his orders, and I cried a lot. And you know. Interviewer: “Yeah. Now during those years before you went down there and you knew he was going in, were you paying much attention to the news and following what was happening?” Oh, yes. Oh, yes, we certainly were. It was a very scary time. Interviewer: “Okay. Did you yourself have any particular attitude of the war during that period?” I really felt—Because my parents—You know, we all talked about it a lot, and at the time we felt that our country was doing the right thing. You know, at the time. It’s easy to look back and say, “Well, we didn’t.” But at the time we felt it was the right thing to do. (10:06) �Robson, Sally Interviewer: “Right. Okay, so really the prospect of Larry going in—It’s just like, ‘Okay. It’s what he signed up for. It’s his duty. We’ll just do that.’” Right, right. Interviewer: “Okay, but in the meantime when you went down to Corpus Christi, then they’re starting to say, ‘Oh, don’t worry. You don’t have to go to Vietnam.’” Right. Interviewer: “Well, Vietnam had gotten pretty ugly by then, and we needed more doctors. Okay, so what was daily life like in Corpus Christi while you were there?” Well, I had my children. Larry worked on the base. I would take my children either to the—It was really hot. We moved there in July. It was really hot. So I took my children to either Padre Island—you know, the Gulf of Mexico—and we would picnic there and whatever. Or I would take them to the officers’ club. They had a pool there, and we would swim there. And we didn’t go out for dinner very much at all. My parents came to visit, Larry parents came to visit, and I cried when they left. I mean, I felt like I was at the end of the world. You know, you’re at the tip of Texas, you know. It’s, you know—I did not like my time in Texas at all. Larry did because he got to go hunting, and, you know, that was okay. Interviewer: “So you’re in your own house. Is there—Are there other military wives around you, or…?” There were a few streets over, and we did get together with people. And I was in an officers’ wives club thing, which was very nice, and that’s how I got to meet people. And that part was very nice. Interviewer: “Okay. Now when you got there, did you get to meet some of them right away?” Yes, I did, and that was so helpful because I didn’t—We didn’t know a soul, you know. Interviewer: “Yeah, and then did they—What kinds of advice or information did they give you?” (12:04) I don’t know. Of course, for me, it, you know—I had my kids, and that was wonderful. And Larry, as I say—He enjoyed his time there, and then we met a lot of doctors and their wives. And next door to us there was a lawyer and his wife who—He was drafted into the service. He wasn’t happy about that, and they were nice. But there was no one on my block that I could talk to. Interviewer: “But now your kids are how old now?” Bill was four and Becky one. They were little. �Robson, Sally Interviewer: “Right, so that’s really hard to move that far away from your folks, and—” Yeah, it was hard. Oh, it was awful. Interviewer: “Yeah, and there’s no school community to become part of because there’s too young at that point.” No, because he was too young. Interviewer: “Yeah. Okay. Did you have a church down there that you went to?” Yes, we did. We went to a Methodist church, so that was nice. Interviewer: “Yeah. Now did they provide much for you, or…?” Not really, no. Interviewer: “Okay. You just went there on Sundays. What kind of schedule was Larry working?” He worked every day, was on call every other weekend, on call at night. The first week we got there he had to stay on the base, and that was scary to me because I was all alone with my kids. And I didn’t like that at all, but that’s what you did, you know. Interviewer: “All right. Was the culture—the way of life—down there different from what you were used to?” Oh, it’s very different there, you know. People are different, I think, in Texas. You know, they’re, I think—It’s a generalization, but I think they’re a little phony. The people that lived on my block, and—But, you know, they were friendly people, too. I don’t know. Interviewer: “Yeah, but it really did not feel like home at that point.” (14:07) No, not a bit. No, not a bit. Interviewer: “All right. Now—So when Larry gets the call to go to Vietnam, and you—Now what do you do?” Well, I cried a lot, and then—Well, and then I was embarrassed to think that I had cried when we moved to Texas because I didn’t like it there. So then I felt terrible because it was so much worse what was happening. But then I moved back—Flew back here with my kids and went to my parents’ house in Muskegon, and they wanted me—I stayed with them. I lived with them with Bill and Becky and a dog for almost that year that he was gone. Interviewer: “What did you do with the house in Texas?” �Robson, Sally Oh, we sold—Well, we rented it, and then a year later, the people were going to buy it. And a flood happened. Or no, I mean a hurricane happened, and it leveled the house. So we lost a lot there. Yeah, that was kind of awful. Interviewer: “Yeah. No flood insurance coverage or anything like that for that kind of thing?” No, no, nothing, so yeah. That part wasn’t so good, but it happened. Interviewer: “Okay, so Larry heads out. Now what kind of contact or communication did you have with him once he was gone?” I only talked to him twice that year, and he called me once from a ship. And he called me once— He had gone to Japan to take an injured person there, and so he called me then. But we did make tapes, and I sent them every week. And then we wrote to each other every day, and so that was mainly our communication. Interviewer: “Did you know he was going to call, or did the phone ring and you picked it up and it was him?” I didn’t know. Yes, the phone just rang, and it was him. (16:05) Interviewer: “That must have been amazing.” Oh, it was, and then when you talked on the phone from Vietnam and the operator was there, she would break in if you were saying something—Like I said to Larry—He was on a ship, and I said, “Oh, I hear a typhoon is coming.” And the operator broke right in and said, “You’re not allowed to talk about that.” And then you’d talk, and you had to say, “Over.” You said something, and you said, “Over.” It was very odd. Interviewer: “Yeah, it was a radio communication set up kind of like using hand radio type. So it’s like you talk, and then they have to switch over so the other side can hear. Yeah.” Yes, yes. Yeah, it was weird. Interviewer: “Yeah, not ideal in a lot of ways.” No. Interviewer: “Okay. When you wrote to him, what kinds of things did you tell him?” I just told him about everything we were doing and, you know, who I saw. And the neat thing is is that Larry wrote Bill and Becky letters, and a couple Christmases ago, in their stockings I put �Robson, Sally those letters. And they loved that. I mean, that was very touching, and they got very emotional about it. But that was nice that I had those letters to give to them, so… Interviewer: “Right. Yeah. Now when he’s talking to you or writing to you, I guess—So when he’s talking to you, I guess, those two times on the phone, there’s somebody listening. But when he wrote, what kinds of things would he say?” He told me what was happening, and he, of course, did not like what was happening over there at all. Well, they were pretty awful. In fact, you know, they were upsetting, to say the least, and my sister would say, “He shouldn’t write about those things to you because they’re so awful.” But I was glad he could to express himself, you know. Those are very hard times. They were hard times, and so at least I had that. I had the nicest mailman who would come say, “Oh, here’s a letter for you.” You know, it was really nice, and it was wonderful that my parents had me live with them and my children and our dog. They couldn’t have been more wonderful. (18:10) Interviewer: “Was it hard—I mean, could you talk to anybody about the contents of the letters?” Well, my parents and my sister, and I had aunts that lived across the street. And they were wonderful, too. I had some marvelous support group with my parents and my aunts and my sister and her husband and Larry’s parents, too. I would go to their house every so often with the kids, and they were wonderful. Interviewer: “Did they live in Muskegon, too?” No, they lived in Alaiedon. That’s where Larry was born, and they lived in Alaiedon. So I would go there, and so it was—You know, that part was wonderful. Interviewer: “Okay. Now at this period—A lot is going on in ‘68 into ‘69 at home as well as in Vietnam. How aware were you of some of the whole anti-war movement going on?” Oh, I was very aware. I would go like to the bank or to the store, and they’d say, “Oh, you’re husband’s in Vietnam? Well, he’s going to be a changed person when he comes back. You won’t even recognize him. He’s a—He’ll just be awful.” And that was scary to me, of course, but, you know, because of our letters and our tapes, he sounded fine, you know. Interviewer: “Yeah. Well, that was one of the kind of stereotypes that was already starting to pop up by that time, you know, based on not always a whole lot of evidence or what happens to some people but not others. I mean, Larry was serving primarily on a hospital ship, right?” No, no, he was just on a ship for two weeks. He was on—He was right in Quang Tri on the base there. Interviewer: “Okay, so we do have an interview with him on file. I should have looked at that before, but, anyway, if you’re interested in this, yeah, you can watch her interview and �Robson, Sally his. Yeah, so he’s there, and that’s up. And that’s very far north part of South Vietnam, and there was a lot of fighting going on there. And so he’s seeing a lot of things go through there. All right. Okay. Now did people—Did you ever get any kind of trouble or negativity from people in the sense—Because on the one hand, they’re saying, ‘Oh, bad things can happen to him.’ But were they also negative just to people who were there at all?” (20:15) No, I didn’t get that. I did not get it then. Interviewer: “Now after he came back, did you encounter any of that?” Well, yeah, Larry did. He—When we moved back here—you know, that was a couple years later—a friend of ours asked Larry to speak to a youth group at—Downtown. At the Methodist church downtown. And he did, and people were very angry that they’d asked him. People at the church were angry that they’d asked him to speak. They did not like that at all. That probably was the only time that—You know, as I say, I’d run into people at the store or wherever before when he was in Vietnam, and they would tell me awful things about their politics or whatever. And that was scary to me, but I—That was what I ran into, but then Larry ran into this other thing at the church of all things. Interviewer: “Was he speaking about Vietnam?” Yes, he was, and they, of course, were very much against the war. And they just didn’t think that he should have been asked to talk there. Interviewer: “All right. You were also part of the time in which the women’s movement had really taken hold that came out of the anti-war movement. Did that have any impact on you that you can think of?” No, I don’t remember that at all. I really don’t. Interviewer: “I mean, I guess, do you remember sort of news about women’s liberation and all of that kind of stuff, or was that just out there somewhere?” Yes, it just didn’t affect me. Interviewer: “Yeah, I guess you’d already been a professional yourself by this time, and you were college-educated. And you were doing what you wanted to do, so might not have registered in quite the same way as with some of them.” Right. No, it didn’t. Interviewer: “Yeah. Okay. Now what about the civil rights movement? Now that’s the same era, too.” (22:05) That was when we were in college. No, when we were in Ann Arbor, and, you know, I remember watching it on TV and thinking how awful and whatever and thinking, “We should go �Robson, Sally and do something.” But we didn’t. You know, I mean, we thought about it, but—So that really didn’t—I mean, it affected me in a certain way, but I never went through with anything. Interviewer: “Okay. Now when Larry’s tour in Vietnam ends—and that would get you into ‘69—did he still have time left in the service?” He did. He had four months left in the service, so we were sent to—He was sent to the Naval base in North Chicago, and we lived there for four months. And our son was in kindergarten, so he left Muskegon and went to the—To a grade school in North Chicago. And… Interviewer: “Is that the Great Lakes training station?” Naval. Or—Yeah. I don’t think it’s there anymore. I don’t think— Interviewer: “Well, there’s something there, but not—But a lot of it has closed down. The Navy does a lot of its training now in San Diego, but yeah.” Right, right. Interviewer: “But yeah. But it was a big—At that time, it was a very big base, and there was a lot of training going on at its hospital and all the rest of that.” Oh, yes, yes. We would go and see the men. They would—It was in the spring, and they would sometimes take them outside. And I did take my children to a sailor graduation, hoping they’d remember it, but they didn’t. But—Of course. Also gave them their first train ride, which they don’t remember either, but… Interviewer: “Did you socialize there on the base?” Yes, yes. Then I— Interviewer: “So you were living in—on the base itself?” On the base there. Yes. Interviewer: “That must have been a little bit easier than Texas.” It was much easier, and yes, I met a lot more—And I became—I joined a doctors’ wives’ group there as well, and that was nice. We had friends from here that came to visit us while we were there, and our parents came. And so that was nice, and I was, of course, very thrilled that Larry was out of that horribleness, you know. (24:17) Interviewer: “Okay. What kind of effect did the experience seem to have on him? I mean, they’re warning you, ‘Oh, he’s going to be all different,’ and so forth.” �Robson, Sally He—You know, it didn’t seem like it bothered him. I mean, of course, it—Things troubled him terribly, but he didn’t show it. When he got off the plane, I remember, I gave him the keys to the car, and his hand was shaking. So he couldn’t put the key in the keyhole, but other than that, you know, for a long time, you know, he talked about it a little bit to me. But he didn’t really want to talk about it, which I think a lot of men don’t want to, and—But then when we—Then we moved from North Chicago to Detroit so that Larry took his vascular surgery residency there, and he— Then the Fourth of July came, and we went to a fireworks display. And that started nightmares. That was awful because when he was in Vietnam, they would send rockets up every thirty seconds or something. And that’s when his nightmares started. Interviewer: “How long did they last?” Well, you know, through the night, and then, you know, that was kind of it. But, you know, he doesn’t like to do fireworks because of that. Interviewer: “Yeah, but I mean was there sort of just a—Would he have—Was there a period in his life there where he would have nightmares regularly, or was it just kind of a— Triggered by that particular thing for that particular night?” Right, right, and he hasn’t had many of those. Just on the Fourth of July. (26:05) Interviewer: “You were sort of in a situation where you’d been kind of the boss of the family while he’s gone because even—although you’re living with your parents when you’re in North Chicago, to some extent—but was it difficult at all for you to—” No, I was thrilled to get—The minute he came home I forgot everything I knew. I mean, really, it was—Yeah, no, it wasn’t difficult at all. I suppose— Interviewer: “Happy to turn the responsibility back to him.” Yeah, that was wonderful. Now I probably shouldn’t say that, but it’s true. Interviewer: “If it’s true, it needs to be said. Okay, and then let’s see. So you had a—It was basically a year in Detroit for that residency?” Yes, a year. Interviewer: “Okay, and then did he have a job lined up after that?” Yes. Then we came back here, and he worked at Blodgett Hospital and St. Mary’s. He divided his practice into two places. Interviewer: “All right. Okay. Now when you’re back here, and you’re kind of settling in and meeting people—And there’s a whole generation of doctors who did military service in that era. A lot of them had various versions of the Berry plan, and then—And, I guess, the �Robson, Sally circle that you associated with or whatever—Were there other doctors who had done the same thing that Larry did?” Just one other, and he was a general surgeon. And they were friends of ours before, and they went to Germany. And so he had to stay in for three years. If you chose a place that was not under attack, you had to stay in for three years, so—But he—This other fellow was the only one that had to go to—We knew older doctors who had been in World War II, and their plight was much worse than ours because they would go for two to three years without ever hearing from anybody. And their wives didn’t hear from them. (28:16) Interviewer: “Well, they could still write. They just might have not have been very good at it, but yeah, because they were going in for the duration. And in Vietnam, things were on a calendar, so you did it that way. Okay, so I kind of asked that question in part because you—So you didn’t really have anybody else to kind of compare your stories with or experiences with. It was just sort of something that happened, and you went on.” Right. Interviewer: “Do you think that the experience changed his perspective at all either about the war itself or politics or just how he went about things?” I don’t think so really. I mean, he just knew that he had a job to do, and, you know, he’s not a politician by any means. He just—I mean, he took an oath to help people, and so that’s what he did. I mean, it kind of was as simple as that. Interviewer: “What about you? Did his experience and your experience together change your opinions about the war or politics or the world at large?” No, you know, what I—Truthfully, at the time we believed it was the right thing to do. Looking back now, obviously, it was not. It was—I mean, I worried about him terribly, you know. I was told that if anything happened to him, I would hear from the Red Cross, and—Before it was in the paper. But, you know, in a paper every other day it would say, “Quang Tri rocketed,” and that’s where Larry was. And that just scared me to death, and I must say when Larry had been gone about—to Vietnam, about four weeks later—You know, my mother was very proper, and we always ate at the table. (30:13) And she had breakfast, and we all went to breakfast. And I started just—I think I had a sort of mini breakdown, and so my mother put me to bed. And my children were rubbing—Patting me. And my mother called the doctor, and he came. And I don’t remember what he did now or anything, but I just stayed in bed like for that day. I just kind of couldn’t come to terms with it all because it was very frightening, you know, to have your husband in a war. And so I— Interviewer: “And Bill was only four when he went.” Four and then five when we lived— Interviewer: “Did he ask her, ‘Where’s Daddy?’ And—” �Robson, Sally Oh, yes, and then what’s interesting about that is that when we would send tapes, the first tape we sent—Bill loved to talk into the microphone, and so he did say, “Daddy, have you been shot yet?” Interviewer: “Oh, jeepers.” I know. I’ve got a tape. “Daddy, have you been shot yet? I hope you’re not shot.” And that—I didn’t realize he was thinking about that. That was helpful to me to talk to him about—You know, you could see the news every night on TV and see what was happening, and so we talked about that. You know, about how safe or whatever his father—And, see, I thought my husband had a gun with him. He didn’t. He turned it in. He didn’t want to be responsible for the gun, but I thought he did. And I—That made me feel better to think he was safer with a gun. Interviewer: “Okay. Now you’re talking about television news, so were you regularly watching a TV news through that whole period?” Yes, we did. Interviewer: “Okay, so you didn’t just tune out after a while and decide not to—” No. Interviewer: “But—And then your son would also see that going by, anyway, and it was there. Because I’m a little older than he was, but, I mean, that was something that had a very profound effect on me to the point where I didn’t want to watch the evening news.” (32:11) I can understand that. Interviewer: “Yeah, I was like eight or nine, but it was sort of—” You know, I don’t know if we watched it all the time, but I certainly remember sometimes that we did. And I’m sure it was scary, but Bill thought it was kind of—You know, he’s a little boy, and he thought it was kind of exciting. You know, I didn’t, but I wanted to know what was going on, too, you know. And Becky was too young to realize. She didn’t really even know her dad when—She was just two—barely two—when he came home. Interviewer: “How did she react?” Well, there’s a—You know, when she—When he was in Vietnam, she—We took my kids to the airport when he was flying away, and so she’d say—She could barely talk, and she’d say, “Daddy in ky.” You know, “in the sky”, and so when he came back, you know, she was fine but a little bit standoffish, you know, because she didn’t know who this man was. And, of course, Bill was thrilled to death to have him back. We have darling pictures of when he came back, you know. They’re really cute. �Robson, Sally Interviewer: “Okay. It’s different when soldiers come back today than it was when Larry came home.” Oh, yes. Yeah. Interviewer: “What do you think about that and how we treat veterans now compared to— ” Oh, well, I think how wonderful. You know, they get to Skype. They get to talk every day if they want to. I think it’s a wonderful thing and how lucky for them that they have all these new devices, you know, to help them. (34:03) Interviewer: “And then you also have the community itself. Is a lot more positive towards them.” Oh, yes, so much more. Yes. Interviewer: “Yeah, I mean, would it sort of—Would—You just dealt with people generally in the community. You know, Larry’s back, and he’s a doctor and this kind of thing. Does it sort of not come up that he was in the service or in Vietnam?” No, not very often. Not really. You know, I’d heard about people spitting on doctors and, you know, doing terrible things. That did not happen where we were, so that was a good thing. Interviewer: “Yeah. Now in the communities where you were living—whether it was Muskegon while he was gone or Grand Rapids afterward or in Texas or in Chicago or whatever—did you have a sense that people were generally supportive of people in the service, or…?” Well, I did because, you know, in Texas we were with military people, and in Chicago we were with military people. And they were—I actually loved that part because—and in Texas—I loved the aspect of people in the service who were so dedicated. I found that very impressive that all these people were so dedicated to working in the service and, you know, were behind anybody who was in the service. I really liked that aspect of meeting people like that. Interviewer: “Okay, and then if you’re in Muskegon or in Grand Rapids, is it more just indifference, or…?” I think it was. You know, people—I don’t think—Of course, Larry didn’t want to talk about it, you know, so people were very nice. I didn’t find it any different really. Interviewer: “Yeah, and these were not, you know, areas with big colleges in them or places that would be hotbeds of unrest or whatever.” No, no, no, not a bit. �Robson, Sally Interviewer: “Yeah, so you don’t have that part of that in the community in that way, so yeah. So, I guess, if you look back on the whole experience now of having your husband go off to war essentially and come back, how do you view that, or how do you think that affected you?” (36:14) Well, I just wish—and Larry would say this too—that there should never be another war. It’s horrifying. It’s horrible. It’s—I mean, I still can’t imagine what Larry went through. I mean, I can to a certain extent, but it was so awful. I mean, they would have what they—These body bags, you know. They would dump these, and then he also treated the North Koreans— Interviewer: “Or Vietnamese.” Or the Vietnamese, but also the—And they would, of course, want to kill you as much as look at you, I guess. That was a very awful experience. People will say, “Oh, didn’t you learn a lot?” And Larry said, “Yes, I learned you don’t go to war.” You know, and I—You know, I think that’s true. It only affects me in that I had someone that I loved be in a war that was horrific, but I’m very proud that he did it. He did what he was supposed to do, and he did it. And I’m proud of him for that. I really am. Interviewer: “All right, and do you think that you kind of grew or changed at all because you had to go through it on this end?” Well, I guess I hope I did. You know, I don’t know, but I think I did a bit. You know, I feel like I’m still the same person in most ways, so… Interviewer: “But you did have to take care of two kids by yourself with support from family, but still. That’s different.” Oh, I did. Yeah, but, you know—Yeah, but I—But it was—But, you know, I just loved it. I loved being with my kids, you know. That is not a hardship to me ever. No. Interviewer: “And they still talk to you.” Yes, they do. That’s the best part. Interviewer: “All right. Okay. Well, thank you very much for taking the time to talk to us today.” Well, thank you. That was lovely. (38:04) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_RobsonS2295V Title A name given to the resource Robson, Sally (Interview transcript and video), 2019 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2019-02-15 Description An account of the resource Sally Robson was born in Muskegon, Michigan in 1937. She graduated from high school in 1955 and began studying to become a teacher at Albion College and taught second grade in Walled Lake, Michigan, after graduating. In 1969, her husband, Larry, enlisted into the Navy and moved his their family down to Texas during his Basic Training. When he was sent to Vietnam to work as a doctor at a base in Quang Tri, Robson and her children moved back to Muskegon and lived with her parents. After returning from Vietnam in 1969, Robson's reunited family moved to Chicago where Larry worked at the Great Lakes Naval Station before moving to Detroit where Larry started his vascular surgery residency. A year later, the family settled into Grand Rapids where Larry worked at both Blodgett Hospital and St. Mary's Hospital. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Robson, Sally K. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Coryell, Janet (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, RHC-27 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f4381edb050d43dd0617fa454d1d48ad.mp4 a26998620d19f5a2e24aec0c02359141 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9bc8756a789699f6b8cdd9f7db6c516d.pdf 026971fca51360817e84e59bb1f6e34a PDF Text Text Frederick Rock (1:20:07) (00:09) Background Information • Frederick was born on November 27, 1919 in Detroit, Michigan • He was in his second year of college at the University of Detroit when he enlisted in the Air Force • Frederick wanted to fly planes and some of his friends were also joining (4:20) Training • He went to Chicago and then down to Texas • Frederick attended B-25 training school for a couple months • He trained with Tail Gunners • They went to Wichita, Kansas for more training • Frederick was then sent to Florida and assigned to be a Flight Engineer on the B-17 • He went home on a leave and was late getting back so they made him do KP all night and took away his Staff Sergeant stripes (16:16) Deployment • They were a replacement crew that was being sent to north Africa • It took them a couple of weeks to get to Oran, Africa and they stayed there for about a month • Frederick then flew to Foggia, Italy • There was 10 people in his crew and he was the Top Turret Gunner and Flight Engineer • They shared the air field with the British • He slept in a tent with 3 other people from his crew • They used airplane fuel for heat • The Air Force had civilians do the cooking and he thought it was good (24:40) Combat Missions • Depending on the weather sometimes they would fly 2 to 3 times a week �• The first third of the missions were rough • His first mission was to Vienna, Austria • Their missions lasted for 6 to 8.5 hours • They mostly flew at 26,500 feet • On his first mission they forgot to turn on the electronics for the bombs and so he had to go out on the catwalk and release them • On a mission to Ploesti Oil Field the #1 engine propeller mechanics were knocked out and they lost control for a little while • Frederick started his missions on July 7, 1944 and his last one was on January 17, 1945 • He did 35 missions, but some of the rough ones counted for 2 so he had 50 total • They had the same crew until towards the end of the missions when they got a new pilot and co-pilot • Their bombardier was killed on another plane • His plane was hit by 88mm shells, they went through the wing and the main fuel tank and then exploded above • His crew was in the 348th squadron of the 99th bomb group [probably the 97th, since the 99th was based in England] (36:55) Living Conditions • He could send and receive mail • When Frederick had some time on leave he and a friend went hunting on Mussolini’s private hunting grounds, but he didn’t shoot anything because he hit the clip release button instead of the safety • There was rain and snow mix so it wasn’t very cold • His crew was pretty positive and didn’t have much stress • They played cards a lot • He liked to target practice with his pistol (47:43) Return to the US �• Frederick landed in New York and had some time on leave so he went home to Middleville, Michigan for a couple weeks • He then went to a rehabilitation center in California for a couple weeks • Frederick got married in July, 1945 • He was about to go to flight training, but they cancelled the whole program • Frederick went to Camp Bryan in Texas for a month and then was discharged (51:10) Discharge • After being discharged he went back to Middleville • They got a trailer and moved to Detroit so Frederick could finish his engineering degree using the GI Bill • He then went to work at E.W. Bliss in Hastings, Michigan for 3.5 years • Frederick ran an engineering department at a die cast shop in Middleville for 6 years • He engineered with Chrysler for a year in Kokomo, Indiana • Frederick worked at Wolverine Die Cast in Warren, Michigan for 6 years • He then started a VW repair shop • Frederick says the military made him more mature � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RockF Title A name given to the resource Rock, Frederick (Interview outline and video), 2008 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rock, Frederick Description An account of the resource Frederick Rock was born on November 11, 1919 in Detroit, Michigan. He went to the University of Detroit for a few semesters and then joined the Army Air Corps. He was a staff sergeant and assigned to be a flight engineer on a B-17 Bomber. Frederick went to North Africa and then to Italy. He was a turret gunner and a flight engineer on a crew of 10 people in the 348th squadron of the 99th bomb group. He went on 35 missions but they counted some of the rough ones as double so he had a total of 50 missions. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Erichsen, Wallace J. (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Army. Air Corps Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2008-12-06 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/da992deaaef65ddf71e39ad0762d27f0.pdf bdbebc471b4a958d13a1b7a85eb24575 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Antonio (Maloco)” Jiménez Rodríguez Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 6/25/2012 Biography and Description Antonio (Maloco) Jiménez Rodríguez has no qualms about admitting that he was the Vice-President of the notorious Hacha Viejas, or Old Hatchets, of the 1950s and 1960s in Chicago, which some believe was the city’s first Puerto Rican gang. It definitely is the most well-known group of that era. The leader, Juan Hacha Vieja, came from Barrio Mula in Aguas Buenas, Puerto Rico. He was a World War II veteran with a lot of heart. Several witnesses describe one time in 1982 when a Puerto Rican landlord in Wicker Park pulled out a .32 Colt automatic pistol and pointed it directly at Juan “Hacha Vieja”’s face as Hacha Vieja was walking in a small passageway between two garages, approaching his building. The landlord wanted to embarrass Hacha Vieja and make him run, or at least get scared. But Hacha Vieja just stood there and pulled a .38 snub nose revolver from his pocket and, even while the .32 automatic was being pointed to his face, started loading bullets into his gun. Mr. Jiménez Rodríguez also recalls that the Hacha Viejas had no gang colors. In fact, they had no real gang name and bore little resemblance to the groups of today who sell drugs or hang out on street corners. The Hachas Viejas drank mainly beer or rum at the saloons or at the homes of members in places like the Water Hotel or the social clubs that their own members owned. Juan “Hacha Vieja” had been given that nickname when he was just a boy in Barrio Mula of Aguas Buenas, Puerto Rico. At the time he was working for Tio Gabriel Jiménez as a farmhand in a mountain farm that also produced coffee. The name was given to him because “he was �very good with the machete at the farm.” When times were bad economically, he and Tio Gabriel’s sons would move from farming to construction or to other farms, doing odds and ends to survive. Hacha Vieja became close friends with Mr. Jiménez Rodríguez and his other brothers and cousins. After World War II, many of them moved to Chicago, mostly to the La Clark and Lincoln Park areas. The more they located meat packing, factory and restaurant and hotel jobs near Wells Street and Chicago Avenue and around downtown, or at the steel mills south towards Indiana, the more they contacted their friends and family from Aguas Buenas and Caguas. Other Puerto Rican families did the same and pulled entire families from their cities and towns, setting them up in Chicago. Juan “Hacha Vieja” was loved, feared and respected all at once. If he liked you he would turn your last name into “Hacha Vieja” -- Pablo became Pablo Hacha Vieja and José would be José Hacha Vieja. On the weekends when they drank at the Clark Street saloons or by Halsted Street and along Madison. Often they would usually get into a brawl and spend the night in jail for disorderly conduct or loitering. By Monday, they would all be back to work. Mr. Jiménez Rodríguez recalls wanting to get along with everyone, but there were other minority gangs that hated the Puerto Ricans with a passion. They had to get their respect or they would be pushed around and slapped or beaten up. He explains that they had no other choice but to fight, and carve out territory; the police did not defend them. And many times the police would join these other gangs against the Puerto Ricans. By the early 1960s there were three taverns that were owned by the Hacha Viejas: one at La Clark close to Grand Avenue, another on Western, about one or two blocks north of Division, and the third by the Hotel Lincoln on Armitage Avenue and Clark Street. One day Mr. Jiménez Rodríguez remembers coming from the west side club on Western Avenue to the Armitage Avenue and Clark Street Tavern. The Italians and Irish were hiding, waiting for he and his friends. A mob converged on the Hachas Viejas and started beating them with chains and bats. He, Hacha Vieja and some others got cut very badly ending up in the hospital for a couple of months. Still on another battle, they also got cut up by a Mexican gang from Taylor Street near Halsted .It also put them in a hospital. But Mr. Jiménez Rodríguez explains that this is how they learned their lessons, the hard way for not paying attention. They needed to be prepared at all times. As time went on they did less fighting and could just socialize and enjoy a good time. It was no longer just them; more Puerto Ricans were moving in. � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/df27a23641e7119349dc545ab010bf46.mp4 8dd30633e1da51f1b7a2fa3973818e9e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Antonio “Maloco” Jiménez Rodríguez vídeo entrevista y biografía Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puertorriqueños--Relatos personales Idioma español--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Pandillas--Illinois--Chicago Puertorriqueños--Illinois--Chicago--Vida social y costumbres Veteranos--Relatos personales Pandillas--Illinois--Chicago Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Rodriguez_Antonio Title A name given to the resource Antonio “Maloco” Jiménez Rodríguez video interview and biography Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rodríguez, Antonio Description An account of the resource Antonio “Maloco” Jiménez Rodríguez has no qualms about admitting that he was the Vice-President of the notorious Hacha Viejas, or Old Hatchets, of the 1950s and 1960s in Chicago. He was a World War II veteran with a lot of heart. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puerto Ricans--Personal narratives Spanish language--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Gangs--Illinois--Chicago Puerto Ricans--Illinois--Chicago--Social life and customs Veterans--personal narratives Gangs--Illinois--Chicago Language A language of the resource spa Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-06-25 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e44c2adbc465e8ed45f8948b23f5d2a4.pdf 8d8544dc68d89fcc71d4f0920fa40390 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: David Rodriguez Interviewer: Jose Jimenez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 5/15/2012 Runtime: 01:19:32 Biography and Description Oral history of David Rodriguez, interviewed by “Cha-Cha” Jimenez on May 15, 2012 about the Young Lords in Lincoln Park. "The Young Lords in Lincoln Park" collection grows out of decades of work to more fully document the history of Chicago's Puerto Rican community which gave birth to the Young Lords Organization and later, the Young Lords Party. Founded by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, the Young Lords became one of the premier struggles for international human rights. Where thriving church congregations, social and �political clubs, restaurants, groceries, and family residences once flourished, successive waves of urban renewal and gentrification forcibly displaced most of those Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, working-class and impoverished families, and their children in the 1950s and 1960s. Today these same families and activists also risk losing their history. �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: Okay, if you can start with your name, where you were born, and what year -- you know, what’s the -DAVID RODRIGUEZ: Okay, my name’s David Rodriguez. I was born in Chicago, Illinois, in 1956 on Chicago Avenue in Henrotin Hospital, okay? JJ: Henrotin Hospital? DR: Henrotin Hospital, I remember. Can’t get too much more Chicago-er than that. JJ: Oh, yeah, that’s Henrotin Hospital by LaSalle. DR: That’s right, LaSalle, on LaSalle. JJ: I thought it was on Oak Street. DR: Well, now it is. JJ: Yeah, it’s on Oak Street. DR: Yeah, so that’s where I -- JJ: It’s right between Chicago, Illinois. DR: Exactly. And after that, I don’t remember too much until I get older, okay? (laughs) JJ: Okay. No, that’s fine. DR: So -- JJ: Who’s your mother and father? DR: My mom and dad are Roman Rodriguez and Clotidle Rodriguez Flores, and if I’m not wrong, it was 1953 [00:01:00] when they got to Chicago. And they went there like all the other families that were going at that time from Puerto Rico. 1 �They went there looking for work, okay? I have other aunts. Their mom was part of the (Spanish) [00:01:16]. They went to different parts of the States too, Atlanta and parts like that, looking for work. They worked in the fields picking tomatoes JJ: Picking tomatoes? DR: -- okay? And actually, my dad got involved with the community through the churches, and my mom and dad worked with the churches in the communities. They worked with the priests, and they started creating new organizations and groups in the church. And they would have their own parties and stuff like that, and that was basically it. In those days, there were not that many Puerto Ricans in Chicago, okay? We were, I think, one of the first 40 or 50 families that were there, [00:02:00] and you were there. And you should know that too because you were part of the family, you know? And basically, we all went to school in the same area. We grew up together. Our family was really tight. We were always at parties together; you know, family reunions and things like that every year. I mean, basically, we saw each other all the time, okay? It was not a once a year thing, so we knew each other well, okay? It was more like one big family with sisters and cousins and brothers and stuff like that, you know? We watched out for each other, you know. JJ: So what do you mean? How did we see each other often in -- DR: Oh, we went all the time to the family parties, to the family reunions, to the church parties that were going on, the organizations they had going on. I would go all the time over where you were hanging out with the Young Lords, and I 2 �remember you used to get on the mic -- “That’s my little cousin going by me,” at the church on Dayton. I remember all of that stuff -JJ: Yeah, that [was fun?]. DR: -- and [00:03:00] then I remember there was a problem, okay? I was still kinda young. I remember one of the Ramos boys was shot or something like that. JJ: Manuel Ramos. DR: Manuel Ramos. JJ: Did you know the whole family, or...? DR: Well, Billy Ramos was one of the first musicians I worked with. JJ: Who? DR: Billy Ramos, William, his -- JJ: Oh, you did? DR: -- younger brother, and we went to school at the same school. JJ: I didn’t know that. So William Ramos was Manuel Ramos and Tyron Ramos’ brother? DR: Right. JJ: And what did he play? DR: He played timbales. JJ: He plays timables? DR: He’s a timbalero, yeah. JJ: Okay, so he was the little one. DR: He was the youngest that I remember. JJ: William Ramos? 3 �DR: Yeah, Willy Ramos. JJ: And then he played timbales for what band? DR: It was with -- JJ: I’m sorry. I have to -- (break in audio) DR: Yeah, Willy ran with -- JJ: Willy Ramos. DR: -- [Defunto’s?] brother, right. And basically, Billy was a timbalero, [00:04:00] went to school with us at -- JJ: What school? DR: Wasn’t that called -- what was that school? I can’t -- JJ: Franklin. You remember Franklin? DR: No, it was the Catholic school. JJ: Immaculate Conception? DR: No, it was by Sheffield and Armitage, the one over there. JJ: St. Teresa’s? DR: St. Teresa’s, okay. JJ: So he was going to St. Teresa’s with you? DR: Yeah, we went to St. Teresa’s. JJ: You went to St. Teresa’s? DR: Yeah, I went to St. Teresa’s. I went to also Immaculate Conception. He was also there with us too -- JJ: I remember that. 4 �DR: -- okay? And the first band he played with was a band that we called Latin Explosion. That was the first band that we played together in, but as far as bands go, that was not the first orchestra I heard. Oh, yeah, he also played in the very first kids band we ever had, which was in Immaculate Conception. JJ: You might have to repeat it for me. So this was Manuel Ramos from the Young Lords? DR: [00:05:00] Manuel Ramos from the Young Lords’ little brother, Billy Ramos. JJ: The one that got killed by the police? DR: Exactly. I remember it like today, the march and everything down there. JJ: What do you remember of the march? DR: What do I remember from the march? JJ: I mean, how did it -- DR: I remember it -- JJ: -- occur to you? DR: -- looked like an army coming down the street. I mean, I was a kid, you know. This is what we saw as kids. We saw this huge army coming in full gear, you know, coming down the streets, and we were like, “Wow, what’s going on here?” Carrying a coffin with the flag and all this stuff -- and I remember people screaming and crying. Really a shame, you know? Those were rough days. JJ: There were a lot of people? DR: There was thousands and thousands and thousands of people. I mean, it was -- JJ: Yeah, it was a lot. 5 �DR: -- thousands of people, yeah. There was definitely a lot of people. It looked like, I said, a sea of people. It looked like an army was marching through the city, you know what I mean? And those are the fresh memories that I have. JJ: Now, how did you feel? Because most of these were Puerto Ricans. DR: Well, you got to remember I was [00:06:00] young. I can tell you we took it like, “Okay, wow, that’s our community,” and we were proud, you know. But I didn’t realize exactly what was going on, you know? We looked at it more like, “Wow, Puerto Rican power! That’s [amazing?],” you know. But we weren’t really into the movement or anything, or looking into what was happening or anything. We just were riding with the crowd. The people that were feeling it, though -- later as I grew up, I thought about those things, and I remembered what I saw. And then I said, “Wow, that was really a sad situation,” you know? Those were turbulent times, you know, in Chicago. JJ: Turbulent times at that time? DR: That’s what it was, turbulent times. JJ: But how did the parents feel about it? DR: The parents? Well, you know the community in Chicago. Some of the family members were fine with it. Some weren’t. You know, some looked at it like, “If you are talking bad about the government and the United States, oh, they’re going to blacklist the whole family. Everybody’s in trouble,” this and that. [00:07:00] And they didn’t realize that there was just a movement going on, not only with the Puerto Rican community. It was going on in the Black community and even in the white community. It was going on in all the communities at that 6 �time. In the ’60s, there were just movements because people were fed up with politics as usual, and they just wanted to change things. Thus, Obama, (laughter) okay? JJ: Yeah. What was St. Teresa’s like? What type of population was there? DR: St. Teresa’s? Remember, it’s a Catholic school. Now, in the Puerto Rican community, their religion is real important. In those days, you couldn’t get smart with a nun. You couldn’t get smart with a priest. You wouldn’t think about saying anything wrong to any one of them. Okay, an example: if you were in a Catholic school like I was, in those days, the teachers had the right to spank you. They didn’t beat you up or anything, but they would take a ruler [00:08:00] and give you a quick thwack. And if you said something to one of these teachers, or if you went back to your parents and said, “The nun hit me --” “Oh, the nun hit you?” Bam, you get hit again because -- JJ: You get hit again. DR: -- yeah, you did something in front of them. If a nun hit you when you did something, you’re a bad boy, (laughs) you know? So that’s the way it was. So actually, I -- JJ: So what grades did you go? DR: All the way to eighth grade. JJ: So first to eighth grade? DR: From first to eighth grade. JJ: I was going to say I only went sixth, seventh, and eighth. 7 �DR: Oh, yeah, you’re lucky you went through those grades. No, I went from first to eighth, and after that, then I was thrown to the dogs at Tuley High School the first time I was ever in a public school. Shock treatment. It’s like, you know -- JJ: So where were you living at when you went to St. Teresa’s? DR: We were living on Armitage and Sheffield right in the heart of -- JJ: Right by Lincoln Park? DR: -- Lincoln Park. JJ: Armitage and Sheffield? DR: Armitage and Sheffield. JJ: And do you remember the address? DR: Nineteen Twenty, something [00:09:00] like that, Sheffield. JJ: Sheffield? DR: Yeah. JJ: Okay. And so what years are we talking about? DR: We’re talking about there 1968, ’69. JJ: Okay, that’s when the Young Lords were there. DR: Right, when the Young Lords were there. You guys were all over Dayton and -- JJ: We were all over Dayton? And what -- DR: The People’s Park had just been finished. JJ: So people knew about the People’s Park? DR: Yeah, everybody knew about the People’s Park. It was -- JJ: The whole community? 8 �DR: The whole community. I mean, all the kids after it was built -- that’s where they went, and everybody knew about the Young Lords. We also knew that the Young Lords were the only group that was really helping the community in those days. They started the lunch program for the kids. A lot of kids would go to school hungry in those days until that -- I remember the first day it started at our school, even. We were like, “Wow, free lunch today,” (laughs) and it was pretty good. JJ: (inaudible) DR: Exactly, you know, so they started that. And I remember they would come, and they would give shots to the kids at the church and [00:10:00] stuff like that. And they’d distribute out food to the -- I remember they worked with a lot of the poor women and the women that had children that didn’t have fathers. JJ: The daycare center. DR: The daycare center, exactly, and I remember all of that stuff. JJ: So the whole community was kind of involved in that whole thing? DR: The whole community was involved with it; basically the whole community. JJ: You’re talking about a big area? DR: No, we’re talking about a huge area. We’re talking about where all of the major population of the Puerto Ricans was in Chicago at that time. JJ: It was at -- DR: This was at Lincoln Park. JJ: -- Lincoln Park. 9 �DR: And the Division in Armitage of what they call the barrio now existed, but it was nothing like Lincoln Park. Lincoln Park was the area. That’s where the Young Lords were. That’s where the music was. That’s where the community leaders were. That’s where the organizations were. Everything was coming out of there. JJ: Out of Lincoln Park? DR: Out of the Lincoln Park area. JJ: And you mentioned the music. What kind of music were you hearing? DR: Well, okay, now the music is what I am. I’m a musician. JJ: You’re a musician. DR: [00:11:00] I’m a musician. I’ve been a musician all my life. You should know that. Basically, in those days or a little bit before that, the Puerto Ricans -- when they first got here, there was no salsa bands or no big, Latin jazz bands or any other kind of bands like that in Chicago. There was little combitos, and you know, whatever came from the island. JJ: You mean combos? DR: Little combos, you know, and trios and things like that, stuff that came from the island. A few guys got together here and there, and they made a little group or a little trio, or a little group -- JJ: Who were some of the trios that you remember? DR: Calpio y su Trio. JJ: Which one? DR: Calpio. JJ: Calpio? 10 �DR: [Luis Catala?], okay, and then the combitos were [Heberto?] y su Combo, [Carlito?] y Su Combo, Felipe y Su Combo, Vitin Santiago. Tony Quintana y Su Quinteto. You know, those were the little things, and that -- JJ: And these were in Chicago? DR: These were in Chicago, but they weren’t popular. [00:12:00] You know, that’s what they had, and so -- JJ: Because I remember Tony Quintana. DR: Well, Tony Quintana also had-- what do you call that? -- sold airline tickets in agencies. And plus, he had the TV show -- JJ: That’s right. That’s what I remember. DR: -- so that’s where he used to sell all his tickets. (laughs) Great guy, Tony; I love him. But anyway, so those guys were basically -- that’s what that was. They weren’t the best at what they did, but that’s what we had. And so whenever there was a party, that’s what came on. And people were happy to see it because they didn’t have anything else. All the sudden, the kids that were being born, me, us in general, and all the kids that were young at that time, didn’t get into Latin music immediately. We started playing rock and roll, and blues and soul music, and rhythm and blues, Santana music, and stuff like that. And they were all over us. “No, you guys can’t do that! No, [00:13:00] we need Latin bands!” I remember it at home constantly. “What are you doing? You’re playing this stuff. No, don’t you play any Jíbaro music?” “No, Pop, that’s for Jíbaros, you know.” We thought that was a saying that was like a hick, Jíbaro from the mountains, and we didn’t realize that we were laughing at our own culture. We were young. 11 �We weren’t born in Puerto Rico. We were born in Chicago and raised in Chicago. We had a conflict going on at home. We were being taught the Puerto Rican culture. And we would get on the streets, and then we were being taught the American culture. So it’s like, we had to mix ’em both together. JJ: I mean, what were some of the differences? DR: Some of the differences? The language, mainly. You would go out on the street all day. You’d be at school in English. Everything with your friends was in English. And now all the sudden, you came home, and you had to talk Spanish, I mean, because your parents didn’t talk English. They had just gotten here, gotten off the boat, you know what I’m saying? And they were still learning the language. A few broken words -- they knew [00:14:00] enough to get along on their jobs. JJ: What about their style versus what you were seeing at school, even the way they dressed and everything like that? I mean, what -- DR: Oh, yeah, that was different. JJ: Were you ever embarrassed? DR: We were greasers. (laughs) JJ: You were greasers? DR: We had greased back hair and everything. JJ: And dirty hair and everything like that. DR: Yeah, I mean, they dressed -- JJ: And it was really curly. DR: You know, exactly. 12 �JJ: Dry, curly hair. DR: Dry, curly hair. JJ: (inaudible) DR: Exactly, and we were greasers, man. You know, our mothers would come and iron our hair. (laughter) Remember that? JJ: I remember that, yeah. DR: And that was unbelievable, you know? “What are you doing to my hair? I have good hair,” you know? JJ: And that’s where your bad hair comes from. DR: Yeah, [it was like?], “Jesus.” That’s where it came from. That’s why they did that. Everybody was mixed like that, but that’s basically what it was like. JJ: And were you ever at all embarrassed of their style? DR: No, I can’t say I was ever -- actually, I was always [00:15:00] proud of my parents, and I was kinda proud of my whole family. I was proud of you. Many, many times, I would throw your name out. “Oh, my cousin’s Cha-Cha Jiménez.” (laughter) I was a young kid. You were Cha-Cha, you know, so many times, I put you out there. I put you on the line, man. And my parents both worked with the community and the churches and stuff, so I was really proud of them too. JJ: So they were working with the community? DR: Yeah. Actually, that’s what made me -- JJ: So what was your father’s involvement? DR: My father was involved with the Caballeros de San Juan, with the (Spanish) [00:15:32] with the Hermanos de la Familia de Dios. You know, they’d do 13 �dances for the community, and they hired bands from out of town. And they would come in, and they would play, I mean, big dances. One time, they brought Tito Rodríguez, and that was huge for the Puerto Rican community. And El Gran Combo, another time, they brung. The first time Gran Combo came, the Caballeros de San Juan brung him. JJ: Oh, the Caballeros de San Juan brung him at that time? DR: Now, [00:16:00] in those days, there was one Latin band. (laughs) JJ: One Latin band? DR: One salsa band, I’m going to say, not Latin. JJ: In Chicago? DR: One salsa band, and the salsa movement was starting up in the ’60s too. And all the sudden, that band started up, which was La Conquistadora -- JJ: La Conquistadora. DR: -- which was (Spanish) [00:16:18] our family members too. JJ: They were part of it? DR: Yeah, they were our family members. JJ: (Spanish) [00:16:24]? DR: Jesus Rodriguez. JJ: And Jesus Rodriguez was also from the Caballeros de San Juan? DR: Exactly, our cousins. JJ: So they were...? DR: They had a band called La Conquistadora, and -- JJ: That was the only band? 14 �DR: That was the only band, and they would play all the dances for the Caballeros de San Juan, unless they were bringing somebody else from out of town. That’s what actually got me started into salsa music because I went to one of the rehearsals, and I saw them rehearsing. And I said, “Geez, these are my cousins. This is something I never heard before.” I was playing rock and roll, and Ricky was playing rock and roll. [00:17:00] He had a band too. JJ: Ricky, our cousin? DR: Ricky, our other cousin. He had a band of his own, and they were all playing rock and roll, and Beatles stuff and stuff like this. And all the sudden, I heard our other cousins that came from the island were playing this. And then I said, “Wait, what’s this?” JJ: And so -- DR As far as I was concerned, Latin music was cuatros, you know, jibaro music, trio music, and bolero music, you know what I mean? JJ: But you played the bass. DR: Right, so as far as I’m concerned, that’s basically what I thought Puerto Ricans had until I was awakened. And I said, “Wait a minute, these people have big bands. I want to know a little bit more about my culture.” And then so actually, that was part of our family (inaudible) too because -- JJ: So here, we had a family in Puerto Rico that’s playing one type of music, and a family in Chicago playing it differently? DR: Completely. JJ: Completely different? 15 �DR: Completely different. JJ: But then -- DR: And then when they came to Chicago -- JJ: So when this was awakened in your eyes, it was like you had to learn both cultures? DR: I had to learn both, [00:18:00] exactly. That’s why -- JJ: Because that was really Puerto Rican. They were both Puerto Rican. DR: Exactly, that’s the way it was. Both cultures needed to be learned. JJ: And so which -- DR: And not only that because don’t forget that by that time, we were getting older. Our parents were starting to take us out to the parties. You know, we were 12, 13 years old by then, 14, and so they wanted music for the kids too, for the teenagers. So they would hire a band that could play Latin music and American music. Thus, Ricky makes a little bust in La Conquistadora. Then finally, in about 1968, ’69, completely everything changes. I heard some stuff from a guy out of New York called Willie Colón, and it was being played in all the bars. And Willie Colón and Héctor Lavoe got really big in Chicago, and they were the ones that you could say [00:19:00] basically got all the bands to switch over from rock and blues and jazz to start playing salsa, okay? When Willie Colón hit the scene, all the bands in Chicago wanted to play that stuff. Back then, they weren’t -- JJ: So what are some of the bands at this time that you can -- DR: There was a band called the Soul Medallions. I don’t know if you remember the Soul Medallions. 16 �JJ: [I can’t say that I do?]. DR: They were the hottest band. They were everywhere. JJ: What type of music did they play? DR: They played salsa. They played Joe Cuba stuff because they had vibes, so they played a lot of Joe Cuba stuff with Cheo Feliciano singing and stuff like that. Great stuff. And then came La Justicia. And when La Justicia came out, they were actually a band called The Mystics, but they were rhythm and blues and soul music. And they broke up, and they knew -- JJ: They were The Mystics first, and they played rhythm and soul? Because I remember those type of bands too. DR: Right, they were The Mystics. JJ: The Mystics. DR: [00:20:00] They switched from being a rhythm and soul band, they switched completely over to a salsa band -- JJ: A salsa band. DR: -- okay? And La Solución was originally a Santana band, but before that, you had -- JJ: You were in La Solución. DR: I had La Solución, but before that, there was, like I said, the Soul Medallions, La Justicia, La Confidencia, Oportunidad, La Unión, La Solución, La Humanidad, La Liberación, Latin Explosion, Heberto y Sus Estrellas -- Jesus, there’s so many bands and -- JJ: This was in the ’60s? 17 �DR: This was during the ’60s, yeah. JJ: The middle or late ’60s? DR: No, these were from about ’68 to about ’77, ’78. JJ: And they were playing in what neighborhoods? DR: They were playing in all the Puerto Rican neighborhoods, in all the American neighborhoods. We had all the neighborhoods. JJ: So they were making money? DR: Yes, definitely, and we were in the Black neighborhoods. We were in the American neighborhoods. We were in the Italian neighborhoods. What happened was when that music hit the scene, [00:21:00] all the people in Chicago, all the promoters -- and I’m not talking about just Latino promoters. The American promoters were freaking out because all of the sudden, they were having all of these kinds of people showing up at, say, the Aragon Ballroom. You know, usually, they would have to hire an act from out of town or from Europe or from some other place to fill the Aragon Ballroom. This is the largest dancing ballroom in Chicago. It’s a huge venue, and so they would have to call people up there to fill this place, you know? Now, all the sudden, you had a bunch of local bands. Any one of ’em could fill the Aragon by itself, and it was a local band. And they were from the Puerto Rican community, which was a limited population, so they were like, “What the heck is going on here?” We actually went to play at Waller High School one time, [00:22:00] and that’s when we realized what we were doing and what was happening. The girls started throwing things at us, their underclothes. (laughs) We were like, “Wow, like we’re The Beatles or 18 �something?” So when we were trying to leave, they caused a huge riot. They had to call the police and everything. The police show up at Waller High School. “It’s a regular workday. What’s going on?” They show up and go, “Oh, man, you kids. We’ve heard about you guys. Yeah, no, you guys can’t play anymore unless you have a police escort.” So for about three months there at a certain point, because we’re -JJ: And what band was this? DR: La Solución. JJ: La Solución, okay. DR: For about three months there, we actually had to tell ’em where we were going to play so that they would know that we were in the area. And they would have a little bit more police in the area because it was just unbelievable. You did something yourself, which I always remember. [00:23:00] After Hector and Willie broke up, Héctor Lavoe and Willie Colón, you were the guy that finally got ’em together to do one show before they finally -- they never did anything else after that together. It was -- JJ: Oh, they didn’t do it after that? DR: No, and that was at Humboldt Park when you brung them in. I think that was -- JJ: That was in ’83. DR: In ’83, yeah. JJ: June of ’83. DR: Exactly, and -- JJ: That’s when we -- 19 �DR: -- that came out in the paper. Over 100,000 Puerto Ricans showed up for that concert. JJ: You played that, didn’t you? DR: My band, definitely. (laughs) JJ: I remember you were cheering for me. DR: Oh, definitely, yeah. But besides that, we had many orchestras. I had many -- JJ: Now, can you describe that day? Because that’s kind of important in our history. DR: That day was big. JJ: And how was your -- DR: Oh, no, you know, everybody was waiting for it. Everybody said first, when it was announced, “Willie Colón and Héctor Lavoe? They broke up. They hate each other.” (laughs) I mean, they hated each other. And I don’t know what you did, but the buzz was for about four weeks -- JJ: It’s called money. We paid them money. DR: Money. (laughter) Okay, [00:24:00] that’s probably what it is, money. JJ: We had money then. DR: Yeah, well, they showed up, and the people just wanted to go crazy. I mean, that was a big thing for Chicago. Even New York has to remember, and Puerto Rico has to. I mean, they have to bow to that. JJ: And you said it was a big thing for Chicago. What do you mean? DR: Well, it was the most important venue Willie Colón and Héctor Lavoe that I could say ever played because they literally drove 100,000 people by themselves -- JJ: To that event. 20 �DR: -- to that event, and it was done in Chicago. JJ: And the Young Lords had something to do with it. In fact, I was the -- DR: You were the only one, exactly. JJ: -- only one onstage. DR: Cha-Cha Jiménez. JJ: Yeah, so that was (inaudible). DR: So those were the days, and I remember also many of the musicians. I have to mention a few of these musicians -- they were good musicians -- like Ella Martinez, Jesús Soto; Edwin Rodriguez, my own brother; Hector del Valle. These are cats that -- they’re still playing, and they’re still out there [00:25:00] making good money. And they’re playing with big people and big stars. And they weren’t given as much credit as they should’ve gotten because there was so much trouble and static going on in the community at those times, you know? A lot of headhunting went on with the bands in those days too. JJ: What do you mean, headhunting? DR: Well, “My band’s better than your band.” They would go out there and actually try to take your gig. They’d show up with their whole band at your dance and try to take your gig. “Oh, let me play two sets there for free, and I’ll show you how good my band is,” (laughs) and they tried to take your work. JJ: You had competition, eh? DR: A lot of competition, which was bad because we didn’t need that in Chicago. It wasn’t as big as New York, and the population wasn’t as big as New York or Puerto Rico, so they were basically cutting each other’s throats. And we were 21 �seeing these people every day. We were seeing each other’s faces every day, and we’re cutting each other’s throats every day. It wasn’t good. It’s not like, you know, we saw this guy once in a [00:26:00] while. The community was so strong that we saw them all the time, so it’s like, “I know what you did.” So there was a lot of static that happened because of that. It was a different scene than New York or Puerto Rico. Chicago was different. JJ: What do you mean? DR: Well, remember, Chicago is an industrial city. People, when they moved there, they went to work. Parties in Chicago are basically Friday, Saturday, and Sunday, okay? It’s not a tourist city like New York or Miami or Puerto Rico or San Juan. You know, they live off the tourism label. How many millions and millions of people go to New York every year, the Big Apple, or Miami or Puerto Rico for their vacations, stuff like that? And so there’s a lot of parties, and a bigger venue for orchestras and for musicians. In Chicago, no. Chicago’s completely different. It’s a working class city, [00:27:00] okay? It’s an industrial city, and you work all week long. And Friday, Saturday, and Sunday is when you go out and party with your wife or with your girlfriend or whatever, and that’s when you go and see the musicians. And most of the musicians out there hold steady jobs, and I ain’t talking about musicians that, when they leave, play with the best bands in the world and they don’t have to work again in a factory. They just stay there because they have a job. You know, once you have a job, and you’re raising a family, you’re not going to be jumping from place to place or doing things like that. So the way I see it -- the settling of the Puerto Rican 22 �community in Chicago was done by the sons and daughters, not really the fathers and mothers, because a lot of the fathers and mothers packed up and left. And they’re still packing up and leaving, most of ’em, but their sons and daughters were raised there and born there. That’s what they know, so they’re staying there now, that first generation. Chicago is [00:28:00] actually, in my opinion, being built now. JJ: It’s being built now? DR: It’s being built now, in my opinion, by the kids that were left behind, by the first and second generation of Puerto Ricans that are starting to get into their fifties and their forties and that now. And they’re the ones making community movements and doing stuff with the community, and working with the new kids. And their kids are being born now, and their kids are starting to become teenagers and things like that. So yeah, in my opinion, now Chicago is actually being built as far as the community. That’s the way I see it. JJ: And you -- DR: But it couldn’t have been done without any of the struggles that were dealt. I mean, it just wouldn’t exist at all without what happened in the ’60s and the ’70s there. JJ: Which ones? DR: I mean, you have to realize there was a machine called the Daley Machine in Chicago. He was doing everything possible to clear out all the Latinos there in Chicago, okay? JJ: He didn’t like Latinos, [00:29:00] or he just didn’t like their neighborhood? 23 �DR: He just didn’t like their neighborhood, I think. It wasn’t so much a personal thing. I think it was more like, “We were here first,” that kind of a thing. He was Irish, then you had the Italian community add on next to it. So the Irish are coming down on us, you had the Italians, and they were their first. You had the mob and the Italianos. You’ve got the Irish mob, which is the police in Chicago, and you got, I mean, Daley’s gestapo. That’s what we used to call them, the Daley gestapo, the Irish cops, and then you had the Italian real mob. And then all of the sudden, you’re seeing these Puerto Ricans who aren’t scared of anything, (laughter) and they’re fighting with everybody. “We don’t care. No, get out of here!” “No, you make us move.” JJ: So what was -- DR: That was our attitude. JJ: So this is a physical thing? DR: Well, there was a physical thing going on, yeah. JJ: There was a physical thing? DR: There [00:30:00] was a physical thing, of course. I mean, you couldn’t walk through that neighborhood without being -- you had to run through the neighborhood. (laughter) Otherwise, you weren’t going to get out of their neighborhood, okay? That’s the way it was. JJ: Yeah, we had a motorcycle. DR: Yeah, the little motor. JJ: We came through the park. 24 �DR: Yeah, you just couldn’t get out of those neighborhoods, so it was bad. I remember one of our bass players from one of our bands was on the way over to rehearsal one time. He finally showed up at the rehearsal all beat up; broken nose, broken arm, this and that. Oh, the whole band ran out. “What happened?” “The Gaylords.” (laughter) Remember the Gaylords? They were basically American greasers, a hillbilly gang. JJ: So you’re talking about some of the gangs. The band had to fight the gangs? DR: Actually, most of the bands in Chicago were ex-gangbangers. (laughs) JJ: So they came out of the gangs, then? DR: Yeah, because if you weren’t in one, you had few probabilities of surviving. JJ: So you had to be in the gang at the time? Is that what you’re saying? DR: [00:31:00] Not so much be in it, but associated with it. JJ: Associated with it. DR: Yeah, you had to be associated. You didn’t have to really be in it. But if you associated with them, and trouble happened and you didn’t show your face, then you were also in trouble -- JJ: Also in trouble? DR: -- okay? So without coming out all the time and saying, “Yeah, I’m this,” or, “I’m that;” you know, just by saying, “Oh, I live here,” and, “That’s where I’m at.” JJ: So wherever you lived, you were part of the gang? DR: That’s basically it. JJ: That’s what it was. DR: If you wanted to live there in peace, that’s what it was. 25 �JJ: Now, to change the subject, I just wanted to make sure that -- there was the Puerto Rican Congress, and there was also Caribe Ruiz? DR: No, all in one. The Puerto Rican Congress was owned by Carlos “Caribe” Ruiz. That’s where all the bands were, and that’s -- JJ: That started on Larabee and North Avenue? DR: They started on Larabee and North Avenue. JJ: Were you there on Larabee and North Avenue? DR: No, I was not. I show up on the scene on 11th and North Avenue. JJ: So 11th and North Avenue? DR: That’s where [00:32:00] it became, really, the Congress; where they painted the murals and everything. JJ: So that was the Puerto Rican Congress there? DR: That was the Puerto Rican Congress. JJ: They moved to there? DR: They moved to there. JJ: So they used to be on Larabee and North Avenue? DR: They had the club on Larabee and North Avenue. That was the first Puerto Rican club. JJ: So it kind of moved west? DR: Right. That’s where all you guys went when you -- JJ: Right. When we were young, we used to go there. DR: That’s where you guys went. The first Puerto Ricans that got there -- that’s where they went. 26 �JJ: Because that’s where the Puerto Rican Parade was. DR: Exactly, that’s where the first Puerto Rican Parade -- which was Caribe that did it. JJ: Caribe Ruiz was part of it? DR: Caribe Ruiz was in the -- JJ: And the Caballeros de San Juan. DR: And the Caballeros de San Juan, and then he got into working with the kids in the community. That’s when all the bands were created. All those bands -- JJ: So what year was that? That’s what I’m trying to see. Can you explain a little bit about him, or...? DR: Caribe? JJ: Yeah, about Caribe. DR: Okay, so I can go as far as La Justicia with Caribe. Caribe started the bands; that’s where I come in. I can tell you Caribe really started the orchestras in Chicago. I’m not [00:33:00] saying he started the bands. The bands started themselves, but he took over them and he pushed ’em. And he was the one that gave them their names. He was the one that promoted ’em, and without him, none of those bands would’ve had any recognition at all. I mean, I have to be honest about that. A lot of people throw (Spanish) [00:33:16] on Caribe. They didn’t like him because he did so much. It was basically because they were just jealous. For me, they just didn’t like him because they were jealous. I couldn’t find any other reason. They would say this about him, and they would say that about him when it all came down to this. They were unhappy because he was getting money for the bands, and he had seven, eight bands. He had the 27 �majority of the bands, and they were all the best bands. He started ’em himself. You know, he pushed these bands. He bought them equipment. He got every band a brand new PA, every band new amps, every band new personal instruments, everybody band brand new uniforms. Every band was recording, [00:34:00] you know, and Caribe did this. Before that, there was nothing coming out of Chicago. JJ: So he was managing. He was making money, but he was using that money to promote the bands. DR: He was reinvesting it. He was always reinvesting -- JJ: Reinvesting it. DR: -- the money. And usually, 90 percent of the musicians would come to him during the week. “Hey, Caribe, I need 20 or 30 bucks.” He was like a little piggy bank. Every day, 20 or 30 musicians would say, “Give me some money,” and he was just passing -- he never said no. Never, so we never had to really -- and plus, we got paid at our gigs. (laughs) JJ: For a change, yeah. DR: For a change. JJ: He made sure that, you know -- but there’s no free beer here. You had to play for it. DR: Exactly, so that’s basically what was going on with Caribe. Caribe also was involved with a lot of community organizations. The Trina Davila Center -- he worked with you guys -- JJ: Yeah, with the Young Lords. 28 �DR: -- the Young Lords, many times, and he also gave music for you for whatever kind of occasion you guys needed. We did a [00:35:00] lot of work with the community organizations, a lot of it, and that was another good thing that the bands did. That helps the community. JJ: So he promoted the salsa in Chicago and Hispanic music. DR: All of it. He definitely promoted all the salsa in Chicago, all of it. JJ: Because like you said, there was some bands before that were playing, but they had some -- DR: They never really did anything. None of those bands that I mentioned before ever really made any noise, how do you say. They broke up. The bands after that, though, that Caribe handled, they all had a name. They were all recognized through all Latin -- I mean, everywhere you went, they knew about the bands in Chicago. JJ: Some of them, I remember. I’m just trying to find those other bands who came back from Lincoln Park, any salsa bands. DR: Well, definitely, I’ll tell you what -- JJ: Well, the Puerto Rican Congress was the -- DR: -- La León, La Solución, most of the guys from La Justicia, most of the guys from La Confidencia -- JJ: Were from Lincoln Park? DR: They were all from Lincoln Park too, [00:36:00] yeah. JJ: They were all from Lincoln Park, okay. DR: That’s where they were born. You know, they took -- 29 �JJ: Okay, [now even?] before that summer, some of the guys were -- wherever they lived, they had to be part of the gang. So when you lived there, what was the gang there? DR: (laughter) There was a gang there. JJ: Weren’t you part of a group, or no? DR: I was recognized as part of a group. JJ: Okay, what was that group? You weren’t in the group? DR: My brothers and I -- no, I was never in the group. I was just recognized as part of the group, okay? The Latin Kings. JJ: The Latin Kings? Okay. DR: Lived there all of my life on Sheffield and Armitage, Armitage and Richmond. I always lived in Latin Kings territory. Actually, I was one of the original Pee Wees from Dayton and Armitage. (laughs) JJ: You were one [00:37:00] of the Pee Wees from where? DR: Dayton and Armitage. JJ: And then the -- DR: Piso, Wiso, Baby, me -- we had Frankie, a bunch of guys. JJ: In the Latin Kings? Okay, because that was turned into the Medinas -- were they part of that group? DR: Yeah, they were part of that group. JJ: So they were part of that group. DR: They were all part of that group, but that’s something today I won’t dwell on. You know, those are -- 30 �JJ: Because when you’re growing up, you do -- DR: Growing up, exactly. You grow up, and it’s a life experience. JJ: Because you said you were in that part of Chicago. DR: And actually, when we got into the music thing, I would go and play in all those rival gang territories. And they recognized me all the time. And, you know, I told ’em, “Listen, I’m a musician, man.” “We know, man. Don’t worry about it.” JJ: But didn’t you tell me some stories about -- you had to duck a few times? DR: Well, yeah, we had to duck quite a few times, you know? JJ: So give me an example. DR: Okay, here’s a good example. We went to play at a place up on the northside in [00:38:00] the Lake View area. (laughter) And we get to this place. It was a house party, and the band was playing. And some of the guys recognized the guys in the band, and they said, “Man, half that band is Latin Kings.” It was a house party for another gang, so finally, they realized. And I had to go to the guy, and I said, “Listen, you know, your buddies want to tear us apart, man. I mean, we’re going to have to defend ourselves here in a few seconds, you know. What are you going to do? I mean, you hired us to play here. You knew that this was going to --” “No, don’t worry. I’ll take care of the situation.” This is the way they take care of that situation: they line up seven guys in front of the orchestra with bats and knives. (laughter) And they say, “The first one that dares touch any one of these guys has to cross this line.” And we played the rest of the night with seven guys in front of [00:39:00] the band. JJ: That’s the way it was. 31 �DR: I’m not kidding. This actually happened. God, Jimmy, I hope you remember that. (laughter) Actually, when we left, though -- the protection ends at the door. JJ: When you had to leave? DR: The protection ends at the door. Once you load that car, and that last guy walks out that door, jump in the car and run as fast as you can because -- “Bananas! Bananas!” And they start throwing everything they can. JJ: That’s what they used to call the Kings back then? DR: Bananas -- JJ: Because of their colors? DR: -- because of their colors, yeah, so that’s basically what happened there. I can name you bad times with the bands. When the bands were first starting in Chicago, a lot of them didn’t sound that great, okay? They were young kids, remember, that were learning. JJ: So you -- DR: And all the old folks wanted to see their kids playing, so they were hiring these kids to play with -- JJ: It’s a learning [00:40:00] process. DR: -- exorbitant amounts of money, okay? They were paying money for these kids that were learning, okay? And so we went to play at this place in Gary, Indiana one time, La Solución Orchestra, and I remember being on stage. And the band had only been together about three or four months, and it wasn’t a band yet, okay? It was a bunch of noise still, but they hired us. And they hired La Justicia Orchestra, thank God. Those guys were always La Solución’s best friends, 32 �okay? And people booed us off the stage. They booed the band literally. Some of the guys started crying. Remember, we had guys in the band who were 13 years old. Some were as young as 12, 14, 15. I was one of the older ones at 16, and a few of the other guys started crying. They had nerves back then. They started just crying. A lot of them wanted to stop playing music permanently, and I remember the manager and the guys [00:41:00] from La Justicia coming up and saying, “Listen, man, don’t worry about it. One day, they’re going to wish they can get your band in there.” And, you know, about four or five years later when La Solución really hottest thing there was, there was -- we had just come back from Puerto Rico. We were traveling. We had our records out. We were the band, and we had gone back to Indiana many times but for other people. And we were making them pay the price. (laughter) We remembered all the time what had happened in Indiana, so every time they mentioned Indiana, you know, if it was a regular 2,000 dollars, we’d go, “No, 4,000 dollars. You want us to move? That’s it.” So I walked into the Congress one time; Caribe was there. I went to get Caribe to give me some money. (laughs) I walk in, and Caribe goes, “Hey, Dave, how you doin’? You need some money?” And I go, “Yeah, I need some money.” He goes, “Sit [00:42:00] down. Hey, you know who this man is here?” I’m looking at the guy going, “Actually, no.” And Caribe goes, “This is the bass player from La Solución.” The guy gets up and -- “Oh, it’s a pleasure to meet you,” and this and that. “Oh, yeah, sure. Nice to meet you,” and this and that. And Caribe goes, “Remember that time we played in Indiana, that they booed you guys off the stage, and the owner of the dance came up and said, 33 �‘Don’t ever bring me these kids again’? He wants to hire the band now.” (laughter) It was him. And I looked at the guy, and I go, “Really?” And the guy goes, “Yeah, but you know, you guys were young.” And I go, “Yeah, but you didn’t want to give us a break. Look what we are now.” You know, I told him just like that, but we gave him a break coming down to three or four hundred dollars’ difference. We still screwed him. (laughs) Is that allowed to be said? JJ: (laughs) Yeah, you can say that. So where are you at today? You’re living in Puerto Rico, and -- DR: I live in Arroyo, Puerto Rico. I’ve been living here [00:43:00] now 12 years, and I play -- JJ: Why did you decide to come down here? DR: I had some back surgery done. I won some money in a lawsuit, and I always wanted to move to Puerto Rico because of the music. I just wanted to move here, you know? I wanted to try something else in Latin music because Chicago had run out of its boundaries for me. It wasn’t doing what I wanted to hear, so I came here to try some different stuff. Actually, I’ve gone good so far, so... JJ: And [what do you play?]? DR: Well, I play with the Puerto Rico Latin Xpress Orchestra. That’s my orchestra with Tino Sanchez, one of the best known bass players in Latin music. And I play with some of the best musicians in Latin music, and they’re part of my orchestra. We got Monty Montgomery. He also plays with Víctor Manuelle, Fania All-Stars and everybody. And [Willy Trompeta?], William Santiago played with (inaudible) and with [Marina Dión?], many of the [00:44:00] big bands too. I 34 �have, on the piano, Ricky Rodríguez. He directs Lalo Rodríguez’s orchestra. Singing, I have -- on this CD, the new one, it’s Ito Rivera. He used to sing with the Puerto Rican Power, and his brother is Jerry Rivera, the singer that’s out there. JJ: He’s in the band right now? DR: But Ito was famous before Jerry, trust me. Make sure you say that. (laughs) JJ: Yeah, he’s been around. DR: Yeah, Ito was with the Puerto Rican Power. JJ: But Jerry’s his brother? DR: His brother Jerry, yeah. And I have musicians like Milo Orta, Choco Orta’s brother, and I also have musicians like Lester [Ojeda?]. And he used to play with Impacto Crea. I also have Pablo Cardenas. [00:45:00] He’s a master progressionist and altoist. The guys I’m mentioning, these are very, very good musicians. It’s a different style. You know, in Chicago, you play with good musicians locally, but when I came here, I was offered the chance to play with some of the top talents. That’s what I’m working with, some of the top talent here and -- JJ: What are some of the places you’re playing now? DR: Oh, we play everywhere, all around the island. For example, right now, I have something going on with American Health Medicare where I do some stuff during the day so that I’m at different venues all over the island. Next month, for example, I’ll be in Guayama, Salinas. I’ll be in Fajardo, I’ll be in Orocovis, and then Mayagüez. Those are daytime venues. Most of the weekends, I’m at the 35 �Gran Melia Hotel in Rio Grande with a small Latin jazz ensemble. That’s Monty’s group, and I play with them. [00:46:00] And plus, I play with everybody who calls me. I just recorded one tune on Tito Rojas’ new CD. Cut number five is dedicated to his father. He called me to do a bit, so... JJ: And so it was always your ambition to get into music? I mean, why did you start thinking about music? I mean -- DR: I don’t know. (laughs) That’s a good question. I mean, as far as I can remember, I always -- JJ: Because what is the music instrument that you play? DR: I play the tres, but I didn’t start on the tres. I started off on an accordion. The first instrument I ever picked up in my life was an accordion. JJ: And how did you get with that? DR: We lived on Bissell and Armitage, and Don Lulu’s? daughters were taking accordion -- JJ: Don Lulu? DR: Don Lulu. JJ: Lulu? DR: Lulu; that was the owner of the building. His daughters were taking accordion lessons, and [00:47:00] they were teenagers. I was a kid. Now, every time they came home with their accordions, I would start making noise. And then they freaked out because I started playing something, [on the accordian?] I guess. And my dad made me take accordion lessons. My friends would be outside 36 �playing, and I’d be in the kitchen sitting with my dad cooking. “You did it wrong! (laughter) Play it again.” JJ: He was your teacher, or...? DR: Well, he was -- JJ: Your coach. DR: My coach, yeah. He was the one with the whip, (laughter) so that’s what was going on there. Then after that, I had some family members like Ricky and Paolo, my uncle and my cousin. They played guitars and a cuatro, and every time we went to their house, I would grab their instruments. And Ricky had a Mustang. JJ: So when would you go to their house at this -- DR: Every day, almost. JJ: Oh, because I didn’t -- DR: Almost every day, you know. JJ: I was going to say -- DR: Yeah, no, we were raised together [00:48:00] basically. You know, if it wasn’t every day, it was every week. We saw each other three or four times a week. You know, that’s the kind of thing it was, and I would go to his house and grab his instrument. And I mean, they would make me play on the bed because they didn’t want me to drop it. Ricky had a proud, white guitar; a Fender Mustang. It was one of the first ones they had of that white guitar, you know, that Fender Mustang, and he was really proud of that guitar. And I would go grab it. (laughs) I’m banging on that thing, so he decided to teach me a couple chords. And they 37 �taught me a couple chords, and from there on, I went by myself. My brother Edwin, who ended up playing trombone, he taught me a couple chords. He won a contest for something somewhere. JJ: Edwin? DR: Edwin. And the contest winner was going to get some free guitar lessons, so I made him go to class. He didn’t want to go. (laughter) I would make him go to class and then [00:49:00] come home and teach me, “Or I’ll beat you up.” That’s what went on, and he taught me the chords. And that’s exactly what happened. JJ: Okay, your brother Edwin -- DR: Yeah, he’ll remind you of it too if you talk to him. JJ: “Oh, he would beat up everybody back then.” DR: Yeah, he’ll remind you of it too. “Oh, yeah, he used to beat me up if I didn’t teach him the chords.” That’s the way he was, but that’s exactly how I learned how to play. I wanted to learn so bad that I would do whatever it took to learn. JJ: So there’s Edwin and how many else in your family? DR: Everybody at home was musicians. Everybody did something as far as musically. It’s me, Ruth -- JJ: What did Ruth do? DR: Ruth sang. JJ: She sang? DR: Ruth sang, and Junior sings. And -- JJ: You said Ruth with a T, or...? DR: Ruth. 38 �JJ: How would you spell that? DR: R-U-T-H. JJ: T-H, Ruth. DR: Like the Bible stories. JJ: And she sang? What kind of music did she -- DR: (laughs) Ruth used to love Donnie and Marie Osmond. JJ: Really? DR: I’m looking at [00:50:00] you, girl. (laughter) Donnie and Marie Osmond. I mean, really, really big fans of “One Bad Apple.” And my brother, Junior -- Dean Martin and Frank Sinatra. How far can you get from Puerto Rico? (laughter) Nah, he’s a crooner. He’s won karaoke contests singing Dean Martin and Frank Sinatra. JJ: Did he? DR: Yeah, he’s a crooner, man. He’s definitely a crooner. He sounds like Dean Martin. JJ: Does he? Wow. DR: Really good. And me and Edwin and Jesse were the musician-musicians that played. Edwin and Jesse both play trombones. JJ: Edwin and Jesse? DR: Jesse’s still playing. Edwin retired a while ago, but Jesse’s still playing, and I play the tres. JJ: The tres? Okay, but why did you pick the tres? Was that -- 39 �DR: Actually, I had started off on the guitar, and like I said, I started playing many instruments. I played accordion. I played [00:51:00] drums. I played guitar. I played bass. I even tried a little bit of marimba. JJ: Because isn’t the tres Cuban? DR: Yeah, the tres is Cuban, and I tried cuatro -- JJ: So cuatro went bad for you (inaudible)? DR: No, it wasn’t nothing like that. What happened was that when I got into Latin music, salsa, I was hearing an instrument in the background of some of the salsa bands. And I was saying, “But that’s not a cuatro,” because I knew the sound of the cuatro. I said, “Well, what instrument is that,” you know? And Caribe was saying, “No, that’s a cuatro.” I said, “No, that is not a cuatro. That’s something else.” Finally, Albert Martinez, La Justicia Alfie, says, “No, that’s a thing called a tres. It’s a Cuban instrument, and they play it with the salsa bands and stuff like that.” I go, “Yeah? I want to learn how to play that,” because I really liked it. And Caribe gave me one on my 18th birthday, and it was a gift that he had given to someone else that didn’t [00:52:00] do anything with it. So he took it from him and gave it to me. A week later, I was playing all the songs in the band on it. I learned all that literally in one week. I learned all the songs in the band. I wasn’t quote, unquote, “a monster” on the tres, but I was playing the tres in all the songs in the band in one week. It’s something that other musicians couldn’t -- after two years, they’d give it up because they’d get one wrong. I don’t know. It was an instrument that I caught right away, and I understood it immediately. I could tell I knew exactly what it was, and I knew how to play it. I felt it, and that’s why I 40 �ended up on the tres, and thank God. I made a lot of money playing the tres. (laughs) Hang on one second. JJ: Can you remind me -- yeah, let’s wait a second. DR: Yeah, wait one second. Yeah, I -- (break in audio) JJ: And you said in Lincoln Park, that the Young Lords hung out? DR: Lincoln Park. JJ: We’re ready to go, right? M1: [00:53:00] Go ahead. JJ: Okay, if you can tell me -- we were talking about the Young Lords and when the FBI was coming to your house. Can you explain that? DR: Okay, that was in about ’65, ’66, ’67, those years. JJ: This was probably later in ’68 after the Young Lords had the -- DR: Right, after their whole thing -- JJ: It was the -- DR: -- okay? Yeah, man, ’67 or ’68 around there. You’re right. JJ: Yeah, with the -- DR: Okay, what happened was -- I remember getting up to go to school in the mornings, and there were black cars parked in front of the house. The FBI was sitting there in front of the house. The story I had from my folks was that at that time, they were looking for you, the FBI. JJ: For Cha-Cha Jiménez? 41 �DR: For Cha-Cha Jiménez because of the Young Lords thing. They were considering you guys a militant group and all this stuff. You know, you were anti-American for them. They didn’t know that all you were looking for was just to help the [00:54:00] community, so you were screaming that you were anti-American, you know? That’s the way it was in those days, so what happened was -- JJ: But why were they at your house? DR: -- that they knew that you were our family. And my dad offered to let you stay there a few times while you were dodging all -- they knew this, and they called my dad and my mom. They said, “You know, you have one daughter,” my sister Ruth. “It’d be a shame if anything happened to her because Cha-Cha’s living in your house.” JJ: So they were threatening her? DR: Oh, it was a direct threat. It’s -- JJ: I mean, your father tells you this? DR: Yeah, sure, my parents told us that. That was a threat from the FBI. They basically told ’em, “Get him out, or else something might happen to your kids.” That’s basically what they threatened. And I remember we’d go to school and -- JJ: The reason for that -- I was staying there at the time? DR: Exactly. JJ: So they said, you know, “Get him out, or something might happen.” DR: “Get him out, or something bad could happen to your daughter,” and that was [00:55:00] my dad’s pride and joy, Ruth, his only daughter, okay? That was his baby, period. He didn’t have four sons. He had one daughter. (laughter) That’s 42 �what he had, all right? So basically, like I said, we would go to school in the mornings, and they’d be there. When we’d come back, they’d be there. We’d go out to play? They’d be there. We’d leave someplace with the family? They’d follow us. That’s the way it was. We’d get on the bus, and they’d follow the bus. And we’re looking out the back. “There they come.” (laughs) JJ: So you remember seeing them? DR: Yah, all the time. JJ: And you said that -- DR: Oh, I would get in trouble because I was always looking at them. And my mom -“Quit looking,” you know, that kinda stuff, so I would get in trouble constantly. I was always reminded not to look at them. JJ: So this was something that you talked about in your family? DR: Oh, yeah. Well, we didn’t talk about it all the time. We kept it quiet. We talked about it when it had to be talked about when they’d mention it once [00:56:00] in a while, but most of the time, it was like, “Shh!” JJ: But you did talk about it? DR: We did talk about it, yeah. JJ: And so the whole family was aware? DR: Oh, the whole family was aware, yeah. JJ: And they knew this was FBI? DR: The whole family was aware that this was FBI -- JJ: And they knew this was (inaudible)? DR: No, it was nothing. There was no -- 43 �JJ: And how did you know it was FBI? DR: Because they told us it was the FBI. JJ: They said they were FBI? DR: Yeah, and -- JJ: [So that’s not?] -- DR: -- we knew who they were. It said “G-man” on the car; (laughs) government plates, man. “FBI,” so I mean, it was as clear as day that’s what they were there for. JJ: So then what did your parents feel about this? DR: They felt a lot of resentment. They weren’t happy about it. They were angry with you sometimes. JJ: They were angry with me because I gave them that. I was bringing heat. DR: You were bringing heat to the family. JJ: To the family, so -- DR: But at the same time, they didn’t want any beef with you because they knew what you were doing, that you were actually trying to help the community. [00:57:00] And they didn’t agree in some of the ways you went around doing it. (laughs) JJ: So they didn’t agree in the methods, but they agreed in the reasoning. DR: They agreed in the reasoning. Oh, definitely, the reasoning was always fine. Just the methods, they always -- JJ: They knew that there was discrimination. DR: Oh, they knew that. JJ: And -- 44 �DR: I mean, my dad fought for the same reasons. That’s where the differences in the ideologies come in. You went in the political ideology. You went for the neck. You went after aldermen, and you went after this in communities and forced the community in, “Let’s make a big march.” And they went about it quietly trying to bring change through the churches, telling the people, “Do this. Don’t say this. Say that. When you go to a meeting, talk to them like this. Talk to them like that. Represent yourselves in a different form. Maybe we’ll gain their respect.” You were like, “No, we’re going to earn their respect over the other like, ‘No, you’re going to give me your respect!’” They were saying, “We’ll earn [00:58:00] their respect,” and you said, “No, you’re going to give me your respect!” That’s the kind of stuff -- JJ: That was the difference. DR: That was the difference. JJ: There were different tactics, but they were both for -- so the Caballeros de San Juan were also trying to uplift the community? DR: All those organizations, Caballeros de San Juan, Dos Hermanos de la Familia de Dio -- JJ: The Puerto Rican Congress. DR: The Puerto Rican Congress. Let me see. The Trina Davila Center -- there was just so many of ’em. There were a lot of organizations. JJ: They were all trying to uplift the community -- DR: All of ’em. JJ: -- but in their different ways. 45 �DR: In different ways, exactly. JJ: So it was -- DR: They all had their own leaders, they all had their own ideology, but it was basically the same thing: do for the community. JJ: In other words, they knew the community was down. “How can we improve the community?” DR: Exactly. And I remember in the ’60s that they had gotten a lot of the priests -- I remember there was one priest. I’m going to mention his name. He’s not a priest anymore. His name was Father Raymond -- JJ: [00:59:00] Father Raymond? DR: -- and he was one of the first ones that really, really, really wanted to help the Puerto Rican community. I remember him going out in the snow with you guys taking out food to the poor Hispanic families in the community. You’d take boxes and boxes of food, and toys and everything for the kids, because they just didn’t have money. You know, and I remember him doing all that with the Puerto Rican leaders, with the Young Lords, with the Caballeros de San Juan. I remember the dances they’d do in the church. I remember the first gang was not the Young Lords. JJ: What was it? DR: There was one called the Rebels. (laughs) JJ: Oh, the Rebels. That’s right, with Ricky. DR: With Ricky -- JJ: Yeah, Ricky. 46 �DR: -- and that was the first gang that I can remember in Chicago. JJ: That was down by Immaculate Conception. DR: By Immaculate Conception. The first gang that I can remember from the Puerto Rican community was the Rebels in Chicago. A lot of guys are going to say Latin Kings [01:00:00] or the Disciples. No, the Rebels, the Young Lords, Latin Kings, Disciples, and then -- JJ: Because the Rebels were in Lincoln Park, but the Latin Kings were later up at Sheffield, which was kind of -- DR: The Latin Kings, from what I heard, were just a lot of ex-Young Lord members that weren’t happy with you. (laughs) JJ: Oh, really? Later, some of them -- DR: Yeah, and they formed the Latin Kings. That’s what happened there, but basically, that’s what it was. You know, they said you were too communityminded. (laughter) Let’s put it that way. They didn’t want that much heat on them, so that was what’s going on. JJ: Yeah, that was from the neighborhood [that I came back to?]. DR: And I can remember then -- JJ: And then the -- DR: -- back with the Young Lords too in the Sheffield and Armitage area, the church on Dayton and Armitage. JJ: You said it was -- DR: [01:01:00] You had a music room there in the church, and I used to go there with a couple of my buddies. Billy Ramos -- 47 �JJ: Billy Ramos went there? DR: -- and I would go in there, and my brother Edwin, and we would bang on the instruments, man. We would practice, we would learn, and nobody chased us out because, “That’s Cha-Cha’s cousin.” (laughs) JJ: But not only that. One of the reasons that we took over the church was so we could open it up for the neighborhood, so you guys were going -- DR: And on top of that, we got free lunch every day because you guys were giving out free lunches in the summer to all the kids in -- JJ: Free breakfast and that. DR: And I would get like four or five free lunches a day.(laughs) JJ: But like you said, you guys played music with our [instruments?] everywhere? DR: Everywhere. JJ: Everybody didn’t like you there, but they were -- DR: They had a little nurses thing. They’d check the kids out once in a while. I remember that. JJ: At the clinic? DR: At the clinic. I think they came once a year or twice a year. I remember all of those things like that. Those were very important to the Puerto Rican community -- JJ: But then -- DR: -- especially when you guys would give out the shots. Those shots costed money. A lot of [01:02:00] those folks didn’t have the money, and they had to send their kids -- and then that’s when they were starting with these flu shots and 48 �the polio shots and all this stuff. And so the kids had to get the shots before they went to school. They made a new rule -JJ: When you say that -- DR: -- when the Puerto Ricans started going to school. Everybody needed shots. (laughter) I have no idea why. They didn’t need ’em before, but that’s what went on. JJ: And they got us to -- DR: That’s the kind of stuff that we dealt with, and we struggled hard. JJ: Now, part of the music that you used to do for Christmastime and things like that -- DR: Oh, that’s where, actually, we really got started with music. That’s what the folks who started us -- that was our introduction to Jíbaro music, but it wasn’t the families or the Puerto Ricans near me. The families would get together in the holidays, and [01:03:00] they’d go house to house doing a parranda. A parranda is playing typical music from the mountains here in Puerto Rico or from the island, and that’s Aguinaldo, “Mapeye”, things like that. Different styles of Jíbaro music that they were used to hearing almost every day here, but when they went over, they didn’t hear it anymore. And they only heard it once a year when they would get together with the families to -- a parranda is basically a big family party. They all get together. There’s music, and they celebrate together. And then they go all together to the next house and they do the same party there, and then all the members from that family and the other family go to another house. And before the end of the night, you don’t want to receive them because we’re 49 �talking 70, 80 people and a bunch coming into your house. And if you don’t have food, you’re in trouble because [01:04:00] the first thing they ask for is soup, and they’ve been drinking all night. (laughter) And a big thing in the Puerto Rican community is that they give you soup when you’re drinking. I don’t know why. I guess you can’t [beat?] soup and booze, so -JJ: So that’s all the family participating in the -- DR: The whole family; the kids -- JJ: And so -- DR: -- the grandmothers, the grandfathers, the aunts, the uncles, the cousins. Everybody, and you’re waiting for it. And it’s a big thing because they plan it through the whole year. They plan, “Oh, this year, we’re going to have these guys. Oh, who’s going to make the pasteles? Who’s going to buy the lechón? Who’s going to do this,” you know, a big thing. Then they want to have a little gift for all the little kids, you know. The big kids? Water. (laughs) That’s the way it is. JJ: But I mean, the instruments and that -- you’d send them back to -- DR: Well, no. JJ: What about improvising? What is that? DR: Well, you’re talking about trovadores [01:05:00] JJ: (inaudible) DR: (Spanish) [01:05:02] We had plenty of -- JJ: You had that? DR: Oh, yeah, we had that. JJ: You had (Spanish) [01:05:05]? 50 �DR: First of all, our trovadores [01:05:07] was Pablo, Ricky’s father, okay? He was our musician as far as the typical music in the family. Everybody says, “Me,” but that was way back. Pablo was the man. (laughs) JJ: (inaudible) DR: Pablo was the boy. And basically, him and his son, Ricky, on the guitar -- and what happened was my dad, my uncle [Woosler?] -- JJ: Woosler? DR: Then there was Andre. These were all trovadores. They sang, okay? Pablo sang, and what they sang -- there was an older man that was a close friend of the family, Don Tomas. JJ: Tomas, yeah. DR: Remember Don Tomas? JJ: I remember him. DR: And [Cornejo?] and Luis Perez. These are the guys that [01:06:00] sang to you about the mountains. What trova is -- they’re singing about their life when they grew up in the countryside in Puerto Rico growing up on a farm, okay? That’s basically what it was, and they talked about their days. And they’ve brung all their -- what they were missing, what they were crying for, they were singing about it in their lyrics in the city. So people would listen because there was real emotional to them. JJ: And they would improvise it? DR: And they would improvise right there. That’s called trovas. And they have, right there -- 51 �JJ: They’d sing a written -- DR: -- nothing written down; improvised right there. JJ: And they sang (Spanish) [01:06:35]. DR: That’s right. JJ: I’d give [my life to hear?] -- DR: They would take a Bible, and they would sing the Bible in trovas from the creation to the exodus. (laughter) Singing the Bible. Try that one. JJ: And then -- DR: This is my family, and not to say there weren’t other Puerto Rican families doing the same thing. [01:07:00] All the Puerto Rican families that were there they were doing the same thing. Everybody was doing the same thing. That’s the way that they remembered their homeland, which is actually a sad situation. Right now, I want to make a comment. That tradition has been lost almost completely in Chicago. Now, it’s almost lost here too in Puerto Rico, but now times are different. Musics are different, but that music lasted for hundreds of years. And all the sudden, we lost it within 30, 40, 50 years. It’s really a shame because, I mean, it lasted for hundreds and hundreds of years. And to have it just disappear in 30, 40 years because of other musics coming out -- I don’t find that right. JJ: So when we were kinda growing up, we were kinda keeping that alive. We were kind of in between our parents and -- DR: Actually, La Solución Orchestra was based on Jíbaro music. It was a salsa band -- 52 �JJ: So [01:08:00] it was salsa. DR: -- but we would turn Jíbaro music into salsa, and that’s what made our band so popular with the people. Everybody was trying to copy salsa bands from Puerto Rico or from New York. La Solución wasn’t trying to do none of that. We did our own thing, and it was basically a typical sound. We invented our own style, and people accepted it immediately. Our arrangements were all originals done by ourselves. We didn’t hire other musicians to come and do our arrangements. We did ’em ourselves. We thought of our own lyrics. We did our own recordings. We did everything. And when we sang, we sang about the community. Our first album was Mi Barrio Se Quemo. In the ’70s, there was a lot of gangbanging going on with the Latin Kings and the Disciples and the Clovers fighting. And they were burning neighborhoods, and there was a lot of fires going on and stuff. And so we dedicated the first album to [01:09:00] my barrio in the city. Mi Barrio Se Quemo-- My town caught fire, so that was dedicated to that situation at that time. JJ: And now that you’re talking about Mi Barrio Se Quemo, there was a lot of arson going on also in the community, but I mean -- DR: That was being done. A lot of people were saying that -- sorry to cut you off -that was being paid for by certain aldermen and the mayor and stuff because they were still trying to push the Puerto Rican community out of the Humboldt Park and Wicker Park area. That’s too close to downtown for them. And if you look at it really on the map, it’s basically part of downtown right now, and that was big money. That’s real estate. 53 �JJ: That was prime real estate. DR: Prime real estate. I’ll give you an example. I kept telling my folks not to sell their home on Richmond and Armitage for the price they asked. When they bought [01:10:00] the house, they paid, I think, 30,000 dollars for this home back in early 1970 or ’71. When they resold the house 12, 14 years later, they sold it for -- I think it was 60,000 dollars. It was a very small profit, but I knew that there were people out there repairing and remodeling all these homes, and selling one apartment for 100,000 dollars. They have a three-story building here, and they sold it for that amount of money. Later on, the person that bought that building one year later sold it for 200,000 dollars. And I’ve heard they’ve sold it quite a few times for quite a bit more, and this is a frame house. And the reason being is because it’s prime real estate. This is, I mean, a hop, skip, and a jump from Downtown Chicago, and that’s why they want -- [01:11:00] it wasn’t personal. I can always tell you this. I can guarantee you Daley was not against the community. He just wanted ’em in a different part of the state as far away as possible, (laughs) but he got no problem with us. JJ: So why would he tell ’em that that -- DR: Why would he do that? JJ: Why did he do it? It doesn’t have to be [the Wicker area?]. DR: Money. It’s all about the greenback. This is the United States of America, and everything here revolves around the greenback. People talk about racism and they talk about this, and you talk about -- this is my personal opinion. JJ: What’s your opinion? 54 �DR: My personal opinion? It’s all about the greenback. I’ll give you the biggest communists in the world and the biggest socialists in the world. I’ll throw a couple million in front of ’em. They are going to be American citizens all the way. (laughter) “Karl who? Karl what?” [01:12:00] This is about money. JJ: “Karl what?” DR: Yeah, this is what it’s all about. I mean, and the reason they fight and they’re arguing with you is because, you know, there’s one less group and more money for you. Remember, most of these organizations are funded by the government. The government gives them a certain amount of money to keep that organization going, so they want to keep it going as long as they can. Why? Because they’re receiving that check. That’s their earnings. That’s what they’re receiving, and I’m going to give you an example of something I don’t like here in Puerto Rico. We have students in Universidad de Puerto Rico en Río Piedras who have been studying for 25 and 30 years. They’ve never held a job. They’re getting a check from the government for the past 25, 30 years monthly to study, and then they finish a course and they take another course. They take another course. Now, they’ve been studying for 25 to 30 years. These are [01:13:00] people who started in college in their twenties. Now, they’re close to 60 years old, and they’re still studying. They’ve never had a job, but they’ve gotten money all their lives through the government to study. JJ: Are you talking about me? DR: No, (laughter) I’m talking about -- JJ: Hey, mister, are you telling me about life? No, I’m just -- 55 �DR: But this is what goes on, and those are things that -- I’m trying to explain it’s about the greenback. JJ: So [through careers?] too? DR: It’s not that they’re doing something for this. The ones that really are doing something -- no, not you. JJ: That’s what I -- DR: You’ve been at this before there was money. (laughs) I can befriend you, but I’m talking about others that came after you, and they’re just there for the money. They’re not doing anything for the community. What are they doing? Tell me one thing they’re doing. JJ: And then they’re really there for a career for themselves? DR: Exactly. That’s not for the -- JJ: And then -- DR: Before, it was for the people, remember? The People’s Park, the people’s power. The People’s this-- [01:14:00] Now, it’s the -- JJ: But what about the students? [It must be kids that are?] -- DR: I got kids. I got a wife and family, you know. JJ: That’s how you see it? DR: That’s the way they see it. They’re not going to jeopardize their job anymore. (laughs) JJ: But you think that Daley saw it as a money thing? DR: Daley did it because of money. That’s the only reason he did it because -- JJ: I thought -- 56 �DR: -- that area was being asked for by the big shots. The old money wanted to rebuild that area, which is what they’re doing actually right now. They just rebuilt that whole area. It’s being all rebuilt, and they’re making that into lofts. And you know what they get for one of those lofts? Four hundred grand. I mean, the factory where my dad used to work -- this was an old factory building. JJ: Which one was this? DR: JB Electronics on Armitage close to Westin. It was an old factory building. Old. They stripped this building down; tore, I mean, the floors and the roof, everything. All they left was the four [01:15:00] walls. And they remodeled it, put new floors - lots. Each one of ’em sold for almost 500,000 dollars. This was an old factory building that they were going to demolish. And they want that area, why? Because they’re five minutes from downtown. They don’t even have to take their cars. You get on the bus, and you’re in Downtown in 10 minutes. You get on the train, you’re probably downtown in five minutes. JJ: You’re on the lake. DR: You’re on the lake, you know, and that is prime real estate. The Puerto Ricans knew where they wanted to move. (laughs) They like the park and they like the beach, and they picked that area. And at that time when they came in, it was ghetto. When the Puerto Ricans first moved there, that was ghetto. The downtown area was the downtown area. The Americans at that time didn’t think they were going to expand, right? JJ: Actually, it was skid row at that time -- DR: That was skid row. 57 �JJ: -- on Madison Square. DR: Jewtown over there on Holliston and Madison. [01:16:00] You know, and the Americans basically failed to realize that they were going to expand. The city was growing. They were shocked when they all the sudden had over 100,000 Puerto Ricans. Plus, the Black population was getting big, and they were all in a small area. And they’re going, “Oh, my God, wait a minute. That’s in a certain area, and all that area’s worth a lot of money.” They saw all this money coming out of there in rents and stuff like that, and all these people were getting rich off the populations that were moving into these old buildings. And then all the sudden, the city started expanding, opening up, getting bigger. Downtown started expanding, and they needed prime territory, and we were right in the middle of it. And that’s what happened, Cha-Cha, and you know it. (laughs) And now if you want to find Puerto Ricans in Chicago, they’re there, but not like before. Most of ’em now are in the suburbs. JJ: What are any final thoughts? DR: Any final thoughts? I can tell you I’m glad you did this. [01:17:00] I’m glad that I was able to say something. There’s a lot of things I would have liked to have said, but -- JJ: Go ahead. DR: No, there’s just not enough time. (laughs) We would need a year. There’s a lot of things that really should be said, you know, but basically, as far as our family, I can tell a lot of people that we have a lot to be proud of. We were one of the first Latino families there -- well, Puerto Rican families, because the Mexicans were 58 �there before us. But one of the first Puerto Rican families there, and we could probably say that we worked with all the major organizations that helped build that community there. We can also probably say that we worked with the best music thing there. We were involved in almost every aspect of the growing of that city and every community action, or musically or school-wise. In any form you want to mention, our family was directly involved in it, so [01:18:00] I can veritably say to you now I’m glad somebody’s going to say something because otherwise, it would’ve been a story that would have never been told. And it needed to be told. And there’s other families, not only ours, that need their story told too. So I’ll mention all of those families like the Ortizes, the Sotos, the Riveras, the Ochoas; you know, the Jiménezes. You know, all of them had complete -- they were the ones that built the city. They were the ones that built the reputations we’re living down now, and for good or worse, that’s what there was. And I don’t think Chicago turned out too bad. Chicago has a lot of stuff to be proud of. Whether they like it or not, (laughter) me whether they like it or not, and a [01:19:00] few other guys whether they like it or not. And believe me, there’s some that like it, and some don’t. But you can see nicely that a lot of people respect us and that they liked us. They also realized and they know who we are, and they’ve never beaten around the bush by saying no. When they talk about us, they know, “That was one of the first families.” They know, “Those guys were involved in everything,” so thanks, Cha-Cha. JJ: No, thank you. DR: Nice meeting you, man. 59 �M1: (inaudible) END OF VIDEO FILE 60 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/bf7cb595f6c96a3a4025299c9b695a8b.mp4 7167caaec6273b10c0efa55fdc223462 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry David Rodriguez vídeo entrevista y biografía Descripción Spanish language Description entry La historia oral de David Rodriguez, entrevistado por Jose 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez el 5/12/2012 acerca de los Young Lords en Lincoln Park. Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Mexicano-Americanos--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Mexico-Americanos--Illinois--Chicago--Condiciones sociales Relaciones raciales Conflicto social Identitad cultural Partido Pantera Negra. Illinois Capí­tulo Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Rodriguez_David Title A name given to the resource David Rodriguez video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rodriguez, David Description An account of the resource Oral history of David Rodriguez, interviewed by Jose 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez, on 5/12/2012 about the Young Lords in Lincoln Park. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jimenez, Jose, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Mexican Americans--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Mexican Americans--Illinois--Chicago--Social conditions Race relations Social conflict Cultural identity Black Panther Party. Illinois Chapter Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-05-12 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/23b1eecade9be0f40c3cfc236fb7f6fb.pdf 91d9b71955c98bef5f22976442c506e0 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Eugenia Rodriguez Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 6/4/2012 Biography and Description Eugenia Rodríguez is the mother of José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez. She is the youngest of 13 children and was born in San Lorenzo, Puerto Rico to Juan Rodríguez and Victoria Flores. They then moved to the Morena section of the barrio of San Salvador, Caguas, Puerto Rico. When she was just a child her mother became sick and so Ms. Rodríguez sent to be raised by her older sister, Toribia. But Toribia also had her own family to raise, so Ms. Rodríguez’s father decided to send her to live in a Catholic orphanage until she was 15-years-old. She never attended formal school but did learn how to read and write. The orphanage provided some discipline but she mostly did cleaning and other mundane work and was offered few opportunities to study. When Ms. Rodríguez left the orphanage, she returned to live with Toribia. There she met Antonio Jiménez, the younger brother of Toribia’s husband, who would become her husband. Mr. Jiménez was working as a hired field hand, farming the land for a portion of the yield. He soon proposed. They were married at the only church in the area at that time, and went to live in a one room, simple home in San Salvador.In many ways their life mirrored that of other poor families in the Puerto Rican countryside during the mid-1940s. Ms. Rodríguez helped with the chickens and the few cows and washed clothes on the rocks of the quebra. Mr. Jiménez became a seasonal tomatero, or tomato picker, for Andy Boy Farms in Minot, Massachusetts. After the death of their first daughter at just one year of age, Mr. Jiménez worked especially hard to bring Ms. Rodríguez to join him in the United States. In 1949, �Ms. Rodríguez traveled to New York then boarded a Greyhound bus bound for Boston. Her daughter, Juana (Jenny), was born there. In early 1951 the family moved to La Clark in Chicago to be closer to the rest of Mr. Jiménez’s family who were already living there. At the migrant camp in Massachusetts, Doña Genia, as she was called, washed and ironed clothes for a profit. In Chicago things were not much different. She cooked and sold food to help her husband with the bills. Like many women, she further supplemented their income by setting up a lotería, or Spanish bingo games, in her home. It was not long after they arrived in Chicago that Ms. Rodríguez, like scores of other Puerto Rican families who occupied the homes in the prime real estate areas close to the downtown and the lake, received a notice that she would have to leave her home. They moved to Lincoln Park. Ms. Rodríguez began holding catechism classes in the living room of her home and joined the Caballeros de an Juan and the Damas de María in setting up Spanish masses and other services for the Catholic church. In later years, Ms. Rodríguez and Mr. Jiménez moved to Wicker Park, then to Aurora, Illinois, before finally returning to Puerto Rico where Mr. Jiménez built his dream home. He died just three months later. Transcription JOSÉ: Que se, se me puede a su nombre. EUGENIA: ¿Mi nombre? JOSÉ: Sí, otra vez. EUGENIA: Eugenia Rodriguez Flores. JOSÉ: Okay. ¿Y naciste donde? EUGENIA: En San Lorenzo, Puerto Rico. JOSÉ: Okay. ¿A qué año? ¿A qué fecho? EUGENIA: 1929, 6 de septiembre. JOSÉ: ¿1929? EUGENIA: Mhm. JOSÉ: Okay. ¿En qué puente de San Lorenzo? :26 EUGENIA: Barrio Pino. JOSÉ: Barrio Pino, okay. ¿El otro lado de San Salvador de Caigua? EUGENIA: Mhmm. JOSÉ: ¿Por Morena? EUGENIA: Sí. JOSÉ: Okay entonces…(pausa) Okay, se me puede… Okay, hoy vamos oral de catecismo que tú hiciste en la, en la Dayton en Chicago, en el área, en el área de Lincoln Park. :55/:55 EUGENIA: Mhm �JOSÉ: Entonces, ¿de qué, de qué te vino esta idea de hacer por los muchachos de barrio en Chicago? EUGENIA: Por la necesidad que no conocían bien a Jesucristo. 1:09 JOSÉ: ¿No conocieron bien a Jesucristo? EUGENIA: mhm JOSÉ: Pero entonces… Estabas… ¿en su familia hablaban de Jesucristo? EUGENIA: Sí, porque como yo nací en la religión católica. 1:23 Pues la religión católica pues, hay catecismo. JOSÉ: Okay. EUGENIA: Y hay, sea era una religión antigua. JOSÉ: ¿Antigua? EUGENIA: uh huh JOSÉ: Okay, entonces pero 1:38 así tiene la religión católica, pero ¿solo practicabas en tu familia, en tu casa? EUGENIA: Claro que sí. Daban catecismo en mi propia casa de mi papá. JOSÉ: ¿De tu papá? 1:48 ¿Y quien daba catecismo? EUGENIA: Daba catecismo…uh. Mi hermana, uh, Monotolibria. 1:56 JOSÉ: Okay, ¿Qué estaba cuidando cuando murió tu mamá, Victoria? EUGENIA: Uh huh. JOSÉ: Okay entonces ¿ya daba el catecismo? EUGENIA: Si, y mi papá también. JOSÉ: ¿Y tu papá? EUGENIA: mhm JOSÉ: Entonces, ¿pero tenía un actale en la casa también? 2:08 EUGENIA: Seguro que sí. JOSÉ: ¿Cómo parecía la actedesi? 2:11 EUGENIA: Pues era como pegado la pared en la sala y entonces allí había uno santo y una cosa la imagen. JOSÉ: Pues, eh, Juan, Don Juan … (interrumpido) EUGENIA: Él tenía eso. JOSÉ: ¿Y es un actale en la pared? 2:28 �EUGENIA: Uh huh. JOSÉ: No era mesa, era en la pared. EUGENIA: En la pared. JOSÉ: Okay. Y entonces ¿qué santo tenía él? EUGENIA: Tenía el sagrado corazón de Jesús. JOSÉ: mkay. EUGENIA: La virgen del Carmen. JOSÉ: ¿La virgen del Carmen? EUGENIA: mhm JOSÉ: ¿En este tiempo la virgen del Carmen en Puerto Rico era…? EUGENIA: famosa JOSÉ: ¿famosa en este tiempo? EUGENIA: Sí. JOSÉ: Yo creo que era cerca de San Lorenzo y en San Lorenzo apareció la… EUGENIA: mhm JOSÉ: apareció la virgen del Carmen. EUGENIA: mhm JOSÉ: Como por mil veinte por 26 o 27… EUGENIA: Bueno, yo parece el 29. Yo solo me contaron.. 3:08 JOSÉ: Pero ¿tenía la, un, un, un, un imagen de la virgen, un estatua? EUGENIA: Sí. JOSÉ: ¿Estatua o imagen? EUGENIA: Imagen. JOSÉ: ¿Tuvo la diferencia de un retrato? 3:16 EUGENIA: Un retrato. JOSÉ: ¿De la Virgen de Carmen? EUGENIA: mhm JOSÉ: Okay, entonces, tu papá daba catecismo… ¿Cómo, que decía él? EUGENIA: (pausa) Pues enseñaba la cosa, los mandamientos.. 3:34 �JOSÉ: ¿Los mandamientos? EUGENIA: Y los sacramentos. JOSÉ: Pero ¿Cómo, a cuándo lo hacía? ¿Por la tarde, por la mañana o…? EUGENIA: Uh, gracias siempre lo hacía por el día. JOSÉ: ¿Por el día? EUGENIA: mhm JOSÉ: ¿Por qué no trabajaba la gente nueva en la recuerda? 3:47 EUGENIA: Porque así los sábados y los domingos. JOSÉ: ¿Y entonces viene todo el mundo? EUGENIA: Claro. JOSÉ: ¿Todo los hermanos? EUGENIA: Hermanos, primos, (pausa) gente vecinos, conocidos.. JOSÉ: ¿Viene a tu casa? EUGENIA: uh huh JOSÉ: Y, y, y ¿Don Juan daba catecismo? EUGENIA: Hice catecismo en mi casa. 4:14 JOSÉ: ¿Cruzaba Don Juan o dorible a veces? EUGENIA: Lo daba mi hermana. JOSÉ: Turilia, Julia. 4:20 EUGENIA: Y… uh huh. Y allí todo el mundo… JOSÉ: ¿Don Juan no le daba? EUGENIA: No. Mi papá no. Mi papá enseñaba a rezar, a rezar el rosario. JOSÉ: ¿Cómo le ensenaba rezar el rosario? EUGENIA: Pues, corriendo un rosario y rezando la cuenta. (risa) 4:38 JOSÉ: Rezando la cuenta de lo nuestro padre nuestro y lo … EUGENIA: Sí, lo padre nuestro y la JOSÉ Y EUGENIA JUNTOS: ave maría. JOSÉ: Okay, como… Rezando rosario… EUGENIA: mhm �JOSÉ: Entonces te… perdona momento. 4:51 JOSÉ: Entonces Don Juan Rodriguez Flores. No, Don Juan… EUGENIA: Cos JOSÉ: Cos. Don Juan Coderia Cos. Él le te… enseñaba el rosario. Pero él… entonces ¿reza este rosario con toda esa gente que viene a los sábados y eso? EUGENIA: Toda la tarde, todo la tarde 5:12. JOSÉ: Toda la tarde también rezarlo. EUGENIA: con nosotros JOSÉ: ¿Toda la tarde rezaba ______? 5:16 EUGENIA: Con la familia. JOSÉ: ¿Desde pequeña hasta vieja? 5:21 EUGENIA: Sí. JOSÉ: Rezaba una clase con Don Juan. 5:25 EUGENIA: Reuní, reuní a toda la familia… en la sala… para que todo el mundo rezar el santo rosario. Entonces, él guiaba el rosario, lo misterio, todo. Y por una vez era un muchacho también, mi hermano. Pues rezaba el rosario o ponía a que aprendieron. 5:56 JOSÉ: Porque era su turno. EUGENIA: uh huh JOSÉ: Así le enseñaba. EUGENIA: Sí. JOSÉ: Pero ese durante la semana, entonces a fin de semana, los fines semana… los sábados o domingos. 6:08 EUGENIA: Mhm, los domingos. JOSÉ: Los domingos ¿por la tarde o por la mañana? Porque llevan por la mañana de la iglesia ¿no? EUGENIA: Pues sí, entonces… (interrumpida) JOSÉ: ¿Todo el mundo va a iglesia? 6:18 EUGENIA: Sí, todo el mundo. Lo echaba el antecatedral. JOSÉ: Pertenece a la iglesia allí.. EUGENIA: obligat…. JOSÉ: allí de San Salvador. �EUGENIA: uh huh JOSÉ: (ambos hablan pero José es más fuerte) Porque ya en ese tiempo, vivían en San Salvador, ¿verdad? EUGENIA: Sí porque no había otro (interrumpida) JOSÉ: ¿encagua? EUGENIA: …otra enseñanza sí, solamente… 6:36 JOSÉ: ¿Solamente hay única iglesia que iba allí? EUGENIA: mhm. Una capilla, se llama capilla, no ante… JOSÉ: ¿No te recuerdas el nombre? EUGENIA: (pausa) Juan Bautista o algo, no sé, no me recuerdo. JOSÉ: ¿No recuerdas? EUGENIA: No recuerdo. JOSÉ: Entonces, ¿pero todo el mundo iba e vivían de lo Monte Dores? 6:59 (ríe) EUGENIA: Las personas que vivían en el barrio iban a mi casa al catecismo a la enseñanza religiosa. JOSÉ: O, entonces ¿van a tu casa y no van a casa de otra gente? EUGENIA: Iban también pero donde se rezaba y se enseñaba era en mi casa. JOSÉ: Sugieren bien conocido allí en la capilla. EUGENIA: Uh huh JOSÉ: Rodriguez allí. EUGENIA: Claro que sí. 7:29 JOSÉ: ¿Y los Jiménez no eran conocidos en la capilla? EUGENIA: No, no había un Jiménez. JOSÉ: (ríe) ¿Por qué tú dices que no había un Jiménez? EUGENIA: Porque no había. ____________ los Jiménez. 7:37 JOSÉ: ¿Por qué no iban a iglesia era? EUGENIA: Yo no sé pero los Jiménez eran a, lo, eh… 7:43 JOSÉ: Tiene que alguien, alguien tiene que ir a la iglesia de los Jiménez. EUGENIA: Sí, pero era en otro, en otro barrio. Barrio San Salvador pero Barrio San Salvador tiene mucho… JOSÉ: Entrada. 7:55 �EUGENIA: Uh huh, ochenta… JOSÉ: ¿Por qué era una capilla allí? EUGENIA: ¿Huh? JOSÉ: ¿Por qué era una capilla? EUGENIA: en la plaza de San Salvador… JOSÉ: Y tú que, ¿tú quieres decir que entonces los Jiménez no iban allá? 8:06 EUGENIA: Pues iban también pero yo no me recuerdo. JOSÉ: Pero ¿no se me entaba? 8:10 EUGENIA: ¿huh? JOSÉ: ¿No se me entaba mucho? EUGENIA: No me… (interrumpida) JOSÉ: En la iglesia… EUGENIA: Oh. JOSÉ: En la iglesia. (pausa) Okay. Ahora entiendo. Porque no hubiera la iglesia. 8:19 EUGENIA: Una capilla. JOSÉ: Una capilla. Ere sí, que sí los Jiménez por lo mental, era que no iba mucho. EUGENIA: Sí, yo iba mucho. Yo iba mucho. 8:27 JOSÉ: (ríe) Entonces okay. Pues está bien. Este… Solo Rodríguez y la gente vaya y daba catecismo. Entonces quien, ¿herman dima? (pausa) ¿Chom? 8:42 EUGENIA: Compadre______ estaba pequeño. JOSÉ: ¿Tal pequeño? EUGENIA: Medio lleva tres años. 8:48 JOSÉ: Okay. Por tal pequeño. EUGENIA: Mhm. JOSÉ: Pero entonces… (interrumpido) EUGENIA: Estaba Margaro. JOSÉ: ¿Margaro? 8:55 EUGENIA: mhm JOSÉ: ¿Ayudada a, a, a Don Juan? ¿ya Turilia? 9:01 �EUGENIA: Al catecismo. JOSÉ: Con catecismo. EUGENIA: No… JOSÉ: ¿Quién daba lo catecismo? 9:04 EUGENIA: Daba catecismo con Altolibria mi papá. Uh… y ___________ lo compadre de lo.. JOSÉ: ¿Danielle, (otros nombres no entiendo) 9:17 EUGENIA: Danielle. JOSÉ: ¿Y Danielle también? EUGENIA: Seguro. JOSÉ: Okay entonces ¿Iban a los que daban a eso? EUGENIA: Seguro. 9:26 JOSÉ: Ignacia. EUGENIA: Ignacia tuvo una muchacha. JOSÉ: ¿Una muchacha ya? EUGENIA: mhm JOSÉ: Okay. ¿Ya no daba el catecismo? EUGENIA: No. JOSÉ: ¿Prohibida a la iglesia? EUGENIA: Claro. Igual cataba en el catecismo estaba en mi casa. 9:40 JOSÉ: O, ¿lleva al catecismo? ¿Estaba allí? EUGENIA: Seguro. JOSÉ: Entonces ¿se llenaba la casa entonces? EUGENIA: Pues claro porque todo el mundo iba a mi casa, la casa de mi papá. JOSÉ: ¿De puede la iglesia? EUGENIA: Uh, de, sería como una segunda iglesia porque era reunían. 9:54 JOSÉ: ¿Y puede la iglesia se lleva a tu casa? EUGENIA: Uh huh. JOSÉ: ¿Y se hace algo de comer o algo o qué? EUGENIA: Sí, cocinaban… �JOSÉ: Todo el mundo, ¿todo el mundo traen cosa? EUGENIA: No, solo mi papá lleva. JOSÉ: Lo _________. 10:09 EUGENIA: Un poco anteria finca. JOSÉ: El tener una finca. ¿Grande? ¿Era necesita? EUGENIA: Sí. Tenía cinco cuerdas. JOSÉ: Cinco cuerdas. Era su modo de daba comida y eso.10:18 EUGENIA: Si, porque empleaba arroz y achuwela… JOSÉ: Entonces el pa, el sacerdote igual de la casa, ¿no? EUGENIA: El sacerdote va a casa confesal… JOSÉ: ¿Confesa la gente (Eugenia tosió) en su casa? EUGENIA: Uh huh, confesaba la gente en mi casa. JOSÉ: ¿Y en la iglesia no? EUGENIA: También pero cuando iba a… JOSÉ: ¿La gente pidió confesión? EUGENIA: Cuando iban para antes de comulgar pues confesaban lo que querían confesar. 10:44 JOSÉ: En la iglesia. EUGENIA: En la, uh huh. JOSÉ: Fue también pasaba y daba la vuelta para confesar ama. EUGENIA: Uh huh. JOSÉ: Okay entonces, te… a su… este gente confesaba para otra semana, entonces… Tienen que… EUGENIA: Le confesaban a eso para… antes de comulgar. Antes de comulgar… 11:03 JOSÉ: (interrumpe a Eugenia) Soltaba allí… pero como… si el padre, si el sacerdote confesar en la iglesia, ¿cómo va a confesar en la casa tuya también? EUGENIA: Pues confesaba lo que no podía ir a la iglesia porque viene enfermo y entonces a los enfermos confesaban en la casa. 11:21 JOSÉ: Oh ¿En la casa de ellos? EUGENIA: Seguro. JOSÉ: ¿Se daba la vuelta y regrese? EUGENIA: Seguro. �JOSÉ: ¿Iban los enfermos a tu casa? EUGENIA: Uh huh. Entonces llevo la comunión a los… JOSÉ: ¿a los enfermos y eso? EUGENIA: a los enfermos… sí. JOSÉ: ¿Y en este tiempo vea la carretera es cemento? 11:35 EUGENIA: No… camino. JOSÉ: ¿Camino? EUGENIA: (tos) uh huh JOSÉ: ¿Pero viene el padre con un caballo o auto? 11:43 EUGENIA: A caballo. JOSÉ: A caballo viene la… okay. Por allí en este tiempo. Y tiene JEEP también, ¿no? ¿Después? EUGENIA: Después, eso fue después, que yo me recuerdo bien. JOSÉ: Sí, pero en ese tiempo ¿no le recuerdas los sacerdotes de este tiempo? ¿El sacerdote? EUGENIA: Padre Otelio. Otelio. JOSÉ: Padre Otelio 12:04 EUGENIA: Otelio. (pausa) JOSÉ: Entonces, ¿él era puertorriqueño o americano? EUGENIA: Americano. Casi no sabía en hablar español. JOSÉ: (ríe) ¿Y la gente lo respetaba como quiera? EUGENIA: Pues claro. No llevan nada. JOSÉ: Pero era todo americano… EUGENIA: Todo americano. No había nada de que fueron… de puedes fue que… que aprendieron alguno puertorriqueño. Él salvieron así sacerdote y esa cosa tuvieron porque su tiene que tener un estudio y entonces como era un pobre, no podía… no podía ir a los sitios donde era el estudio por San Juan o por eso sitio. JOSÉ: Mm okay. Y entonces ¿allí aprendiste como, como esa cosa, aprendiste de catecismo? 12:58 EUGENIA: Pues aprendí en mi casa, se hablaba de catecismo… y se rezaba. Y catecismo era para aprender los mandamientos, los sacramentos, los siete sacramentos y los mandamientos de la iglesia. JOSÉ: Okay bueno, pero entonces fue también aprendiste… porque tú también hacía este… se le sobaba la gente con aceite y eso ¿de verdad? �EUGENIA: uh… JOSÉ y EUGENIA hablan a la misma vez. 13:25 JOSÉ: a mí sobaba .. EUGENIA: Solo me aprendí JOSÉ: _____ de aceite. 13:29 EUGENIA: Con mi papá. JOSÉ: (ríe) ¿Con tu papá también lo hacía? EUGENIA: Seguro. JOSÉ: ¿Juan? 13:33 EUGENIA: Seguro que sí. JOSÉ: ¿Estás seguro no era bien católico patólico? EUGENIA: Pero eso, eso es una cosa que es cates… eh ¿católico? Daba una soba a una persona. Él como yo ahora como __________ y eso no tiene nada que ver. 13:51 JOSÉ: Soba a una pero cuando se, cuando le mete aceite. EUGENIA: Voy a aceite, la aceite a para que revelar la mano… puedo corregir los músculos de la mano y desde lugar. JOSÉ: O, el aceite… el aceite… (interrumpido) EUGENIA: Tapa para que… la vena. JOSÉ: Revale la, la, la mano y eso. 14:14 EUGENIA: Seguro que sí. JOSÉ: Entonces, pero entonces, pero también rezaba a los santos… la… EUGENIA: Pues todo el tiempo los católicos rezan a los santos. JOSÉ: Okay. EUGENIA: Porque todo el tiempo se les rezan… Porque ¿a quién más rezan? JOSÉ: ¿A qué santo le rezaba en este tiempo? 14:32 EUGENIA: A la Virgen María. Porque la virgen María pues (interrumpida) JOSÉ: ¿La virgen de Carmen? ¿La virgen de Carmen? EUGENIA: La virgen de Carmen, la virgen de… La virgen María la principal. JOSÉ: Sí, okay. 14:44 �EUGENIA: Entonces, después eso eh… se le pone el nombre según el lugar donde estaba o donde apareció. 14:53. JOSÉ: Okay. EUGENIA: Sí el monte Carbarrio, el monte, el monte Carmelo usa, se dice la virgen de Carmen. JOSÉ: ¿Porque había un monte Carmelo? EUGENIA: Eh.. JOSÉ: ¿En San Lorenzo? EUGENIA: Monte Carbarrio, seguro. JOSÉ: ¿En San Lorenzo había un monte Carmelo? 15:09 EUGENIA: uh huh JOSÉ: Entonces ¿se puso la virgen de Carmen? EUGENIA: __________ según el pueblito, según la fecha que aparece. 15:18 JOSÉ: Sí. Entonces se rezan a la virgen pero entonces ¿rezan a la virgen de, de otro sitio? EUGENIA: Seguro. JOSÉ: La aparición otro sitio. 15:28 EUGENIA: La Guadalupe, como en México. JOSÉ: Como México la Guadalupe, sí. EUGENIA: Mhm. JOSÉ: Okay ahora entiendo. Entonces te (pausa) pero (pausa) pero a veces una ejercito para pagarse en la lotería también, ¿no? 15:43 EUGENIA: Alguna gente, alguna gente… JOSÉ: Mhm. EUGENIA: …que no entiende lo que son las cosas de Dios. Pues le pide en eso y tal aprenden bella. JOSÉ: Depende… (Hablan a la misma vez.) ¿Aprenden bella también? EUGENIA: Para que Gonzela. 15:57 JOSÉ: ya EUGENIA: Cuando no le dice una promesa de tal, de vestirme de sac. JOSÉ: Mhm 16:05 EUGENIA: Si me dame esto. Ella no puede darse dio no le da. JOSÉ: Pero… �EUGENIA: Pero la ignorancia, ¿verdad? JOSÉ: Entonces ¿tú debes vestirte de sac o una vez también de otro bese por allí en Chicago? EUGENIA: Cinco que… Seguro… eh… porque lo que vale él el penitencia y y y como la gente se ríe y uno lo cuelga de broma ¿verdad? Tiene que uno cuelgo de broma porque la gente no sabe, no sabe de eso. JOSÉ: ¿Cómo yo no hablo de eso? 16:33 EUGENIA: Entienden. JOSÉ: Yo sé, yo no sé. pero tú con ________________ respetua 16:42 EUGENIA: uh huh JOSÉ: Okay, yo sé que te vestiste de, como saco de, de (interrumpido) EUGENIA: Hmm, había un hábito. JOSÉ: Un, un hábito EUGENIA: Sí JOSÉ: Un hábito. Y entonces ¿por qué forque de vestirte de esta manera? 16:53 EUGENIA: Yo no… (interrumpida) JOSÉ: ¿En Chicago en la Dayton? EUGENIA: Yo no me recuerdo bien pero fue por al, por al, por algo que (pausa) que yo quería recibir. Y la única forma era ser una penitencia. Pero no me recuerdo, no me recuerdo… JOSÉ: ¿Nada que ver conmigo, con papi, nada eso? 17:16 EUGENIA: Bueno sí porque casi siempre era por tu papá. (risa pequeña) JOSÉ: Pero ¿por qué era de mi papá? ¿De Antonio? EUGENIA: Para que dejar el vicio toman… JOSÉ: ¿Tiene un vicio tomare? 17:25 EUGENIA: mhm. JOSÉ: Y entonces… okay ¿él quiere dejar el vicio o quería dejar el vicio? EUGENIA: El no quería dejarlo porque se daba con todos los primos y todo. 17:37 JOSÉ: _______ vieja EUGENIA: esachua vieja 17:39 JOSÉ: ¿Y tú quieres dejar a eso? EUGENIA: Yo quería dejar todo eso. Pero no dejaba. 17:46 �JOSÉ: Entonces no lo hecho por un año. Vestiste de un saco. EUGENIA: Vestido de hábito también fue… JOSÉ: Le digo eso porque la gente en la comunidad te veían. 17:59 EUGENIA: uh huh JOSÉ: Y dice, “que le pasa esa señora.” Y … ¿y cómo quiera seguir con, con la promesa? EUGENIA: mhm JOSÉ: ¿Por qué era penitencia? EUGENIA: Era una penitencia. JOSÉ: Okay. Y y que… ¿yo te parece lleva así? EUGENIA: ¿Cómo? 18:10 JOSÉ: Igual ______________ ¿Por qué era una penitencia, okay? EUGENIA: Un sacrificio __________ un sacrificio _________deseo que tu tenga ropa bonita y todo y no te puedes poner por cierto tiempo. (pausa) ¿Por qué? Porque mandate la promesa vestirte de esa forma. Y él no puede _______ otra ropa sino la ropa que tú dijiste que te vas a poner. JOSÉ: ¿Por un año? EUGENIA: Sí, por un año. JOSÉ: Por un año (hablan a la misma vez) EUGENIA: año, dos años JOSÉ: Okay, ¿pero por un año andate? 18:45 EUGENIA: ¿huh? JOSÉ: Por un año andante por la Dayton. EUGENIA: uh huh JOSÉ: En un saco que de San Francis de Assisi. EUGENIA: uh huh JOSÉ: ¿Parecido a eso? EUGENIA: Seguro JOSÉ: Con el colon por el lado. EUGENIA: ____________ 18:57 JOSÉ: Eso se le pone en la, en la.. EUGENIA y JOSÉ JUNTOS: la cabeza �JOSÉ: y todo eso EUGENIA: Sí. JOSÉ: Se parecía el saco de San Francia de Assisi. 19:05 EUGENIA: Pues claro tiene que ser la… (interrumpida) JOSÉ: Eso fue… ¿Eso fue por Antonio Jiménez para que dejarle la vida? EUGENIA: Dejarle la vida. JOSÉ: ¿Entonces no la dejó? EUGENIA: La dejó un tiempo como seis meses y_____ volvió otra vez. 19:18 JOSÉ: ¿Por qué… (interrumpido) EUGENIA: Pero no tanto. JOSÉ: Pero ¿tú le estaba diciendo implicando que era por eso? EUGENIA: uh huh JOSÉ: Porque te preguntaba que _______ era así 19:26 Tú le diste __________ vivida. EUGENIA: JOSÉ: Yo no decía _______ promesa dice que dijera. 19:33 Un promesa que hiciste menos sabía. EUGENIA: menos sabía___________ 19:38 JOSÉ: So entonces (pausa) ¿Fue en este tiempo que existe el catecismo? ¿Con los muchachos de la, del barrio hay de Lincoln Park? EUGENIA: (pausa) um… (pausa) JOSÉ: Organizado como un grupo de un muchacho. ¿Recuerdas eso o no? EUGENIA: Más o menos para eso tiempo. (pausa) Igual como yo estaba… en el grupo de las Damas de María, entre las Damas de María. 20:12 JOSÉ: ¿En San Miguel? EUGENIA: uh huh JOSÉ: St. Michael’s church allá. ¿Con el padre…? EUGENIA: ¿He, Hedling? JOSÉ: Hedling. Father Hedling. EUGENIA: Hedling. JOSÉ: Era de la Dama de María para el padre Catherine. ¿Quién era él? EUGENIA: ¿Padre Cartel? �JOSÉ: También. EUGENIA: Padre Hedling, los dos. 20:29 JOSÉ: Okay. ¿En la iglesia de San Miguel? EUGENIA: En la iglesia San Miguel. JOSÉ: Okay en la Cleveland y Eugene por allí, ¿no? en Chicago EUGENIA: Sí. 20:36 JOSÉ: Okay entonces, eh, okay entonces (pausa) Porque estabas en la Dama de Mared, ¿cómo era las Damas de María? EUGENIA: Pues eso (interrumpida) JOSÉ: ¿Qué es eso? EUGENIA: El nombre de dama de María. JOSÉ: ¿Y quién estaba contigo? EUGENIA: Había un grupo tanto grande. JOSÉ: ¿Pero quién estaba? EUGENIA: Yo no me recuerdo ahora. 21:00 JOSÉ: Estaba Glo, ¿Glotilde? EUGENIA: ¡No! Ya no _______ JOSÉ: ¿Esa no? 21:04 EUGENIA: No. JOSÉ: ¿Estaba Marta? EUGENIA: ¿________ Marta? Yo no creo, no recuerdo tampoco. 21:10 JOSÉ: ¿Estaba Calito? ¿Cómo se llama? EUGENIA: Uh huh. JOSÉ: ¿Ina? EUGENIA: ________ JOSÉ: ¿Cómo se llama? ¿Ina o algo así? EUGENIA: ¿Cómo? 21:19 JOSÉ: ¿Cómo Ina o ella? Calito ____________ posa. EUGENIA: mmm �JOSÉ: ¿Quién estaba _____ ahora? EUGENIA: (grande pausa) Yo digo estaba Patria. JOSÉ: Patria, okay. EUGENIA: Estaba… hmm… (risa) No me recuerdo. JOSÉ: Pero estaba Patria contigo. EUGENIA: Sí, Patria estaba, yo sé. Ese me recuerdo pero no me recuerdo bien. JOSÉ: ¿Y y Nini no estaba? EUGENIA: ¿Quién? JOSÉ: ¿Cristina Nini? 21:51 EUGENIA: No _____________ JOSÉ y EUGENIA hablan a la misma vez. EUGENIA: Nunca ______. JOSÉ: Okay entonces pero yo creo que Glota estaba allí en la San Miguel. Pues estaba allí… yo sé que estaba allí en, en el número nueve. 22:03 EUGENIA: No, pero sí Glota todavía no estaba. JOSÉ: Ooh, Monin. Monin estaba. EUGENIA: Monin Jiménez, sí. JOSÉ: Monin Jiménez estaba en la, en la San Miguel. EUGENIA: uh huh JOSÉ: Y entonces la hija de, la esposa de Medego ¿Cómo se llamó? 22:18 EUGENIA: uh… JOSÉ: ¿Ella estaba? EUGENIA: ¿eh? JOSÉ: ¿Ella estaba? EUGENIA: Sí. (pausa) Ay, se me olvidó. Era como madre mía. Se me olvidó. JOSÉ: Okay. EUGENIA: (pausa) No me recuerdo. JOSÉ: Pero era de Merdego. EUGENIA: Sí. (interrumpida) �JOSÉ: ¿Y no era caldito? ¿Era caldito? EUGENIA: ¿huh? JOSÉ: ¿Él era caldito? ¿Moreno? EUGENIA: Él era caldicho. JOSÉ: ¿Sí? EUGENIA: Y había otro santiti 22:47 JOSÉ: Oh Titi Francisco, eso Francisco. EUGENIA: Francisco. JOSÉ: Entonces ¿le puso estaba él? ¿Allí en la dama? 22:52 EUGENIA: Sí porque la, la, la esposa… JOSÉ: Porque ¿Titi estaba no echaría también? 22:59 EUGENIA: uh huh JOSÉ: (risa) ¿So la, la esposa de estaba en la dama de María? 23:03 EUGENIA: Sí. JOSÉ: Creo que Titi estaba Francisco. 23:05 EUGENIA: Sí. JOSÉ: Sí… EUGENIA: (pausa) Eh que, son tantos los años que uno… JOSÉ: Sí. Yo entiendo. Pero había un grupito allí y entonces ¿qué hacía ____________ la dama de María allí en San Miguel? 23:17 EUGENIA: Pues, hacía no actividades. JOSÉ: ¿De qué, qué clase? EUGENIA: Y nos dio comida. JOSÉ: ¿Dieron comida? EUGENIA: mhm. JOSÉ: ¿Arroz chuela? 23:26 EUGENIA: Lo que apareciera. (risa) JOSÉ: ¿Lo que apareciera a pa de? ¿Pader y todo eso? 23:31 EUGENIA: Todo _____________ �JOSÉ: ¿Y donde lo vendían? EUGENIA: Ellos me lo ___________ el hall. JOSÉ: ¿En el hall? O ¿había un hall? 23:39 EUGENIA: Sí, entonces está locura con ella. JOSÉ: ¿Con ella? EUGENIA: (está riendo) 23:43 JOSÉ: Pero entonces ¿La misa estaba en el hall o en la capilla? EUGENIA: En el hall. JOSÉ: ¿En el hall? EUGENIA: En un salón en la mesa. 23:52 JOSÉ: Con el, oh cuatro treinta tres de la Eugene, era el hall. Yo creo que apuntes eso bien. EUGENIA: hm JOSÉ: Yo creo que fue corto __________ de los Eugenes. Bueno. ¿Allí cerca de la Cleveland al lado de la iglesia? 24:08 EUGENIA: Mhm. JOSÉ: So entonces, ¿por qué se reunió en el hall y no en la capilla? EUGENIA: Porque eso era, uh, porque era un poquito. JOSÉ: Okay. 24:22 EUGENIA: Y entonces pues… Como era un poquito, eh.. JOSÉ: ¿Pero el hall se llenaba? 24:32 EUGENIA: ¿Huh? JOSÉ: Era poquito pero ¿el hall se llenaba? Había como dosci… (interrumpido) EUGENIA: Sí, se llenaba y pues, entonces pasa por la iglesia. JOSÉ: ¿Pudo pasar a la iglesia después? EUGENIA: Sí. 24:42 JOSÉ: Empezaron en el hall. EUGENIA: Uh huh, empezamos en el hall. Y como les daba tu sabes propina a la Baroque. 24:51 JOSÉ: ¿Se daba propina también? EUGENIA: Seguro. �JOSÉ: (risa) ¿Sí? (risa) EUGENIA: Porque darle uno a eso. JOSÉ: Okay. Porque de _________ 25:03 EUGENIA: (risa) JOSÉ: ¿Qué no querían era o qué? EUGENIA: No porque como eso era desconocido. Eso le dar (pausa) esa clase así eso era algo desconocido para ellos para Baroque. Pero cuando vieron como los, los puertorriqueños, o sea las Damas de María y los caballeros de San Juan. Esas cosas se trabajaba en conjunto. Para el sacerdote se pusieron muy contento. 25:32 JOSÉ: Al principio no entendían. EUGENIA: No entendían. JOSÉ: Le da miedo. Le da miedo. EUGENIA: No era miedo, era algo como desconocido para ellos que no entendían. El porqué la eso. 25:45 JOSÉ: _____________ EUGENIA: Cuando, cuando vieron, el churro Rodriguez era encargado. 25:51 JOSÉ: ¿Eso Rodriguez? ¿Pudo encargado allí? EUGENIA: uh, él, él, él… le fue diciendo __________ Pablo entonces. 26:01 JOSÉ: Otro edad. EUGENIA: Seguro. JOSÉ: Okay. EUGENIA: Entonces (interrumpida) 26:05 JOSÉ: ¿So Pablo tiene el importante allí? EUGENIA: To, todo lo, todo ese grupo, los caballeros de San Juan… JOSÉ: Los caballeros de San Juan, okay. EUGENIA: Eran importante ya. 26:14 JOSÉ: Miguel Chebre EUGENIA: Sí. JOSÉ: Y Cesario… Rivera o algo así. Cesario Rivera. EUGENIA: mhm �JOSÉ: César, César. EUGENIA: César JOSÉ: de revueldo es César. 26:23 EUGENIA: Más o menos yo veo ya no me recuerdo. (risa) JOSÉ: Okay. Pero Pablo tiene edad se esa Miguel Chebre EUGENIA: y… No cuanto… 26:37 JOSÉ: Roman… tu hermano Roman también era importante, ¿no? Era conocido, ¿eh? EUGENIA: Después, sí. JOSÉ: ¿Él predicaba? 26:45 EUGENIA: Seguro porque, que… No siguieron conociendo. Y la Baroque hace el sacerdote… Se dieron cuenta la necesidad que había poca porque había niño, había… sabe… era un grupo grande. Entonces se dieron cuenta que había… Y entonces se dieron. Pero cuales, se empezó en un hall y pues cambiaron a la iglesia. JOSÉ: Okay ¿dijeron que había un grupo grande y se llenó esta iglesia? 27:22 EUGENIA: Sí. JOSÉ: ¿Se llenó la iglesia entonces? EUGENIA: mhm JOSÉ: Entonces ¿pero su fue el primer año que luciera hiciera __________? 27:31 EUGENIA: Como dos años. JOSÉ: Fue dos años la misa en la capilla. EUGENIA: Mhm. JOSÉ: Entonces allí… Entonces tú… durante este tiempo, porque empieza allí en la San Miguel con la dama y eso. Entonces ¿decidiste tu misma hacer el grupo de catecismo? ¿O te mandaron hacerlo? 27:53 EUGENIA: Porque ya, yo creo que este Chur Rodrigo o algo había empezado y como sabían que yo sabía también. Pues yo seguí haciendo el grupo de Damas de María. 28:10 JOSÉ: La Dama de María, ¿trabajaste en eso? EUGENIA: Yo trabajé en eso. JOSÉ: ¿En Dama de María en San Miguel, en San Miguel? EUGENIA: En San Miguel. JOSÉ: Pero entonces… pero entonces te hablan… pero… entonces ¿fue… ______ mucha allí voluntaria en la Dama de María? �EUGENIA: Claro que sí. JOSÉ: ¿En San Miguel? 28:30 EUGENIA: mhm JOSÉ: Pero ¿Quién era la líder? ¿Quién era? EUGENIA: ¿Cómo? JOSÉ: De las mujeres, ¿quién era, había una líder, quién era la presidente? ¿Eso no sabe? EUGENIA: No me recuerdo. JOSÉ: Okay. ¿Pero tú no eras la presenta? EUGENIA: No. JOSÉ: ¿Tú trabajabas voluntaria? EUGENIA: Yo trabajaba voluntaria. JOSÉ: Okay entonces… (pausa) ¿Cómo decidiste hacer el grupo de catecismo en la Dayton? ¿Y vuelvo en la Dayton? ______se queda la vuelvo. 28:56 EUGENIA: Porque ya echurro Rodriguez lo formó. Entonces pues codieron la persona que podría ser dando catecismo. 29:06 JOSÉ: O, ¿él formó lo grupo de catecismo? EUGENIA: Uh huh. JOSÉ: Entonces ¿tú fuiste, tú decidiste hacerlo en otra casa? EUGENIA: Seguro. JOSÉ: ____Se reunió con la gente ______ pasarle el grupo de catecismo. EUGENIA: Seguro que sí. 29:17 JOSÉ: Entonces ¿que mataban catecismo este tiempo? EUGENIA: No me recuerdo. JOSÉ: ¿Pero habían man mujeres? EUGENIA: mam mujeres o … JOSÉ: ¿O y hombre? ¿Daba catecismo en la casa? 29:29 EUGENIA: Pues no, no, no, _________ lo cambiaron a, cuando los caballeros de San Juan… JOSÉ: No estoy hablando de la misa, estoy hablando de… tú recuerdas (interrumpido) EUGENIA: Pero el caballero de San Juan empezaron por el… viendo por la casa tocándolo la gente. 29:48 JOSÉ: ¿Cómo viendo, tocaba en la puerta? �EUGENIA: Pues seguro. Donde quiere _________ cuando era puertorriqueño, pues habían hablaban de la religión. JOSÉ: ¿Y le tocaban la puerta? EUGENIA: Entonces, pues claro tocaba la puerta porque donde cuando vineron puertorriqueño. 30:04 JOSÉ: Allí (interrumpido) EUGENIA: Querían venir a la misa, querían iglesia, no sabe. 30:08 JOSÉ: Y entonces ¿allí viene a la misa? EUGENIA: Pues claro que sí. JOSÉ: ¿Y entonces pero se daba el rosario en la casa y eso también? 30:14 EUGENIA: Bueno, por regular haya que persona que, que rezaba el santo rosario por rezaba el rosario. Y alguna persona que quiere unirse pues unía a rosario si no pues… Uno deseo que uno rezaba. 30:32 JOSÉ: Entonces ¿tú rezabas en casa como así? EUGENIA: Claro. Yo rezaba en casa. JOSÉ: Okay, entonces los caballeros San Juan y eso así, ¿qué clase de actividades hicieron allí en San Miguel? Que tú te recuerdas. EUGENIA: Bueno… (pausa) Lo más era se vendía comida. 30:51 JOSÉ: ¿Comida? EUGENIA: A la misma gente. 30:53 JOSÉ: ¿Le puede la misa? EUGENIA: Le puede la misa… JOSÉ: ¿En el gimnasio? EUGENIA: mhm JOSÉ: ¿Había un gimnasio grande? EUGENIA: En el hall. JOSÉ: ¿En el hall? O ¿vendía comida allí en el hall? 31:04 EUGENIA: Pues claro. Así cocinaba, cocinaba y vendían la comida a la gente. Jugaba el Bingo. 31:12 JOSÉ: ¿Después de la misa? EUGENIA: Seguro. No enternía no hay. 31:19 JOSÉ: Pero ¿Bingo en inglés o Bingo en español? EUGENIA: En Español. �JOSÉ: ¿Se pueden jugar lotería en español? 31:22 EUGENIA: Pues claro. No era malo. JOSÉ: Pero ¿no era por dinero? EUGENIA: ____Eso para condigo____ 31:30 (Ríen juntos) Echaba el bosillo así, yo calleito. JOSÉ: (ríe) Siguiendo la lotería así en la sala. EUGENIA: Seguro. JOSÉ: ¿A las condiciones… (interrumpido) EUGENIA: Cuando la persona se ganaba _______ dos, tres, lo que fuera. Pues, todos miraban y miraban ________________y pasaban el dinero. 31:50 JOSÉ: ¿Allá en la memhall o en la memiglesia también? EUGENIA: En la iglesia, no es posible en el hall. 31:55 JOSÉ: ¿En el hall? (ambos ríen) ¿So era después de la misa? 32:05 EUGENIA: Pues, antes de la misa para que cosa era. JOSÉ: Sí. Habla de… (interrumpido) EUGENIA: Había un día para eso. Había un día para eso. JOSÉ: Y entonces ¿la gente lo hace en galleito? 32:11 EUGENIA: Pues claro. JOSÉ: ¿Sí? (ríe) EUGENIA: No es algo publicar 32:15 JOSÉ: Sí. ¿No se publicaban en la iglesia y tampoco no se publicado en __hijeria también _______________. 32:22 (interrumpido) EUGENIA: Sí, así. JOSÉ: ¿Publicaba en el número en el ______ también? EUGENIA: Uh huh. No, yo creo que no, yo no sé. JOSÉ: Yo, yo oí que decían este… hay hay hay pantalones sin cuenta, hay camisa. EUGENIA: Más o menos, más o menos. 32:40 JOSÉ: Así en el ejaria, ¿no? 32:41 EUGENIA: Uh huh. JOSÉ: ¿Solo ______cholocatón______? EUGENIA: Seguro. 32:41 �JOSÉ: (ríe) Yo me recuerdo eso. EUGENIA: Uh huh. JOSÉ: Porque yo me recuerdo de eso porque _______ estaba que tiene la ganga esta semana. 32:52 (ríen) El número ____________ EUGENIA: Número nueve JOSÉ: ________________ EUGENIA: Pero yo no me recuerdo. 32:58 JOSÉ: Entonces, okay… Okay entonces este (pausa) Okay. So hacían eso, jugaban lotería. Y entonces, esta… (pausa) jugaban lotería… y entonces… ¿No había un baile, no tiraban un baile? 33:18 EUGENIA: Sí, hacían baile. JOSÉ: ¿A dónde tienen un baile? EUGENIA: (pausa) En el hall. 33:30 JOSÉ: ¿Gimnasio? ¿Era un gimnasio? EUGENIA: Sí. JOSÉ: ¿Grande? Entonces ¿llamaré como también traen comida al gimnasio? EUGENIA: Pues claro. Era el propósito de hacer el baile para vender comida. JOSÉ: Okay. 33:39 EUGENIA: Entonces _____________ se pagaba el hall y se pagaba el hall y (interrumpida) JOSÉ: ¿O, tiene que pagar el hall? 33:44 EUGENIA: Claro. JOSÉ: (pausa) Este… (pausa) Entonces te (pausa) Okay, entonces tiraban el baile y eso y entonces ¿Qué otra actividades haciendo los caballeros de San Juan y las Damas de María? EUGENIA: Hacían el baile. JOSÉ: Okay. EUGENIA: Que yo me recuerdo el baile. JOSÉ: (hablan a la misma vez) Pero iban, ¿iban mucha gente al baile? 34:14 EUGENIA: Sí, iban mucho. JOSÉ: Pero entonces ¿la gente bailaban bien o eran cosas sencillas que no era _________? EUGENIA: Yo no recuerdo bien eso. Bailaban. 34:23 JOSÉ: Pero ¿todo el mundo baila como chachacha o el salsa? �EUGENIA: Era otra cosa. Igueleros 34:28 JOSÉ: ¿Igueleros y otra cosa? EUGENIA: mhm JOSÉ: Y entonces pero ¿llevan gente que bailaban bien? Me conocido de Churro o de José bailaban… EUGENIA: Bailaban todo ellos. 34:44 JOSÉ: Chacha. ¿Bailaban todos ellos bien? EUGENIA: Sí bailaban bien por lo comienzo (ríe) bien pero… JOSÉ: Sí. 34:46 EUGENIA: Bailaban, bailaban. JOSÉ: ¿Pero todo el mundo se llenaba el gimnasio? 34:49 EUGENIA: Seguro que sí. Habí, uh, iba mucho. JOSÉ: Y la música. ¿Era de radio o qué? 34:55 EUGENIA: A veces…tocaban cuatro guitarras. JOSÉ: ¿Sí, tocaban a eso? 35:02 EUGENIA: Y acordeón. JOSÉ: ¿Y acordeón y eso? EUGENIA: mhm JOSÉ: ¿Y banda de conjunto y eso? EUGENIA: No me recuerdo hace muchos años. Ya no me recuerdo. 35:13 JOSÉ: Entonces ¿las damas iban y cocinaban en la cocina? EUGENIA: Nosotros nos tocaban la tarea de cocinar. JOSÉ: ¿Damas, las mujeres, las damas? EUGENIA: Ah huh. JOSÉ: Entonces pero ¿los caballeros trabajaban también, no? EUGENIA: Pues claro. (interrumpida) 35:25 JOSÉ: ¿Qué hacían los caballeros? Las mujeres cocinaban… ¿Qué hacían los hombres? EUGENIA: Pues… llevaban las cosas porque nosotras cocinaban. JOSÉ: ¿Los cargaron y eso? EUGENIA: mhm �JOSÉ: ¿Y limpiaban y eso? EUGENIA: Todo el mundo limpiaba. Los hombres, mujeres, todos. Había que dejar el lugar limpio. 35:47. JOSÉ: Okay, entonces ¿tener que pagar la renta también de la iglesia? EUGENIA: Claro que sí. Claro que sí. JOSÉ: ¿Es una grátin? ¿Tiene que _______ a la iglesia? 35:56 EUGENIA: mhm. Era para la iglesia. JOSÉ: Bueno para la iglesia pero también para los caballeros, ¿no? 36:03 EUGENIA: Mhm. JOSÉ: So era ___participa__________ 36:06 EUGENIA: Para los caballeros para seguir adelante, entonces para seguir compando aquí por cosa de… 36:15 JOSÉ: ¿Cómo equipo? EUGENIA: Pues… (pausa) Si necesitaban una guitarra, un patro o algo. JOSÉ: ¿De lo compraban de su mismo? 36:25 EUGENIA: Mhm. JOSÉ: Entonces, ___se daba presto________ dieron. EUGENIA: No sé. 36:31 JOSÉ: Okay. EUGENIA: La cosa que era así así para… para ayudar a la iglesia. JOSÉ: Okay. ¿De San Miguel? EUGENIA: Y para que ellos no se dejaron esta actividad. JOSÉ: Okay. EUGENIA: Eso era como pagando a la Baroque para que dejara… JOSÉ: ¿Para que dejara hacerlo? EUGENIA: Ah huh. 36:50 JOSÉ: Porque lo pagaban no podían hacer si no tenían dinero. EUGENIA: Seguro. JOSÉ: No lo podían hacer. EUGENIA: Pues no se podían. 36:56 �JOSÉ: ¿Tienen pagar genta? EUGENIA: Mhm. JOSÉ: Entonces no había, bueno, hay dinero. Entonces, ¿no se hace, no de la misa tampoco? EUGENIA: No, la misa siempre la esa misa ________ estaba ofrenda. JOSÉ: Sí. 37:13 EUGENIA: Entonces se ofrenda para los sacerdotes. JOSÉ: Entonces este… ¿Habían otros actividades, también, verdad? EUGENIA: Sí, después siguieron hacer actividades… JOSÉ: ¿Qué tip…? ¿Pero qué otro tipo de actividades? 37:30 EUGENIA: No me recuerdo. JOSÉ: ¿No había _______ y eso? EUGENIA: Sí, ha ______ retiro. JOSÉ: ¿Cómo era esa de _________? De que tú recuerdas de eso. EUGENIA: Pues iban…. que predicaban … _________ retiro y predicaban. JOSÉ: Me dijeron que ¿iban en corbata y todo eso? 37:53 ¿Y trae? ¿A predicá y eso? ¿Se vistieron bien? EUGENIA: Sí, claro, seguro que sí. JOSÉ: La gente viene bien como la iglesia … en el domingo. EUGENIA: mhm JOSÉ: ¿Con corbata y todo eso? ¿Y zapato limpio? 38:12 EUGENIA: Claro. Pues claro ________________________ 38:11 Seguro, un día de que llevar zapato y todo. JOSÉ: Okay. ¿Y había bastante gente entonces ya? ¿Se llenó eso? 38:22 EUGENIA: Sí. JOSÉ: Bien, había estado una misa en español me dijeron en la capilla, ¿no? EUGENIA: ¿Cómo? JOSÉ: ¿Habían dos misas en español en la capilla? EUGENIA: Sí, después… según fuera porque los puertorriqueños, los latinos, todo, americanos también, todos. Cubanos, todos, iban solo los católicos. Iban los católicos. (pausa) Pues, dar misa español solo lo que quería. Entonces los iban. Se llenaba la iglesia. 38:58 JOSÉ: Okay entonces, ¿también había una para muerte y pasión de Jesucristo? ¿Qué hacia? �EUGENIA: También se hacía eso. JOSÉ: ¿Qué hacía? 39:11 EUGENIA: Pues, todos predicaban. JOSÉ: ¿Predicaban? Pero también ¿había un teatro o algo así que había? ¿Una obra, se dice? 39:25 EUGENIA: Había una obra pero había tantos los años que no me recuerda ni como era. JOSÉ: ¿La misma gente no participaba en la obra? EUGENIA: Escogían persona que va a poner… si daba la vuelta pasión tiene que escoger unas mujeres que lloraban la muerte de Cristo. Entonces cosa. Y una hacía una cosa y una hacía otra. 39:53 JOSÉ: ¿Y algún eran soldados? EUGENIA: Todo, habían que ______ según una, según plaza la muerte de pasión de Jesucristo. _______ así. JOSÉ: ¿Y cómo se veía eso? ¿Bien organizado o cómo? 40:06 EUGENIA: Primero había bien organizado y __________ tienen que hacerlo. JOSÉ: ¿Tiene que hacer actuar? EUGENIA: Actuar, uh huh. JOSÉ: Okay. ¿Entonces invitan de igual?… ¿Se parece como una película? EUGENIA: Como más o menos. Estaba tal bien, bien hecho. 40:24 JOSÉ: ¿Y venía mucha gente? EUGENIA: Claro. JOSÉ: ¿A verlo? EUGENIA: Claro. JOSÉ: ¿Era en el gimnasio? (gran pausa) Yo me recuerdo que estaba eso. EUGENIA: Mhm JOSÉ: Entonces ¿__________________ mataron a Jesucristo? EUGENIA: Todo soltaban, soltaban. JOSÉ: ¿A saltaban a Jesucristo? EUGENIA: Así a soltaban y se veía como soltando pero no le daban. 40:47 JOSÉ: ¿Cómo tu sentía? EUGENIA: ¿Huh? JOSÉ: ¿Cuando veía eso, todos saltando a Jesucristo? �EUGENIA: Que una, que haya una persona que… (Pausa) ¿Cómo se dice? que recuerda todo lo que Cristo sufrió por nosotros _____ duele. Le duele la verdad. 41:10 JOSÉ: ¿Lo sentiste? EUGENIA: No siente eso y por eso no … uno sienta JOSÉ: Con más fe. 41:21 EUGENIA: ¿Huh? JOSÉ: ¿Con más fe? EUGENIA: Porque uno tenga más fe. JOSÉ: Porque hay gente que iba a la iglesia pero en este tiempo no solo iba a la iglesia. Tenía esa obra… También la gente vuelta en las bailes. EUGENIA: En todo. 41:40 JOSÉ: ¿Había ________ o para levantar la gente mano? EUGENIA: Seguro que sí. JOSÉ: ¿Soltaba como la comunidad completa la vuelta? EUGENIA: Como una comunidad, una comunidad… JOSÉ: ¿Iban puerta por puerta? ____________ EUGENIA: Sí, avisaban y… y… todos íbanos se llevaban papelitos y se ponían… (interrumpida) JOSÉ: O, a suelta. Le daba en la casa. 42:02 EUGENIA: Claro que sí. JOSÉ: ¿Todo el mundo puede ir a la misa, iba a hacer eso? EUGENIA: Uh huh. JOSÉ: ¿Invitan más gente para la iglesia? EUGENIA: Pues claro que sí. JOSÉ: ¿So era como hacen lo, lo… a bendita iba por casa a casa y eso? EUGENIA: Sí, porque ir casa por casa rizando porque eso era nuevo. Eso no era… que hacía antes. Entonces cuando uno iba… JOSÉ: ¿Para llenar la iglesia? 42:31 EUGENIA: Para llenar la iglesia. JOSÉ: ¿Llenar el hall para que...? (interrumpido) EUGENIA: Pues llenaba a la iglesia, se llenaba... �JOSÉ: ¿Entonces había muchos puertorriqueños en este tiempo? 42:41 EUGENIA: Sí, no allí iban también mexicanos y cubanos. Todos los latinos, los latinos. JOSÉ: Okay. (pausa) ¿Y se llenaba la iglesia de San Miguel? EUGENIA: Uh huh. Y a los americanos, los americanos que estaban asociados a los puertorriqueños, tú sabes que conocían y _______ como los puertorriqueños. Pues también iban. 43:04 JOSÉ: ¿Con los puertorriqueños? EUGENIA: Mhm, claro. JOSÉ: So ¿entonces así fue que se logró la misa? 43:10 EUGENIA: Así fue. JOSÉ: (Se aclaró su voz) Entonces eso fue como... ¿No te recuerdas los años? ¿58, 59? EUGENIA: mm JOSÉ: ¿61, por ahí? (pausa) EUGENIA: No sé. JOSÉ: ¿55? (pausa) Bueno, okay, eso tiene que ser como 58 por eso 59. 43:33 EUGENIA: Algo así. JOSÉ: ¿Algo así? ¿57 por ahí? (pausa) Okay yo me recuerdo fue después que... yo sé que fue después 56 porque Papi tiene un carro en este tiempo. 43:44 Creo que un 55 Chevy (risa) que se lo quitaron. ¿Te recuerdas eso? EUGENIA: mm JOSÉ: Okay yo estaba buscando información sobre eso y me dijeron que no habían… ah… cuando yo me _____ a San Miguel me dijeron que no sabían nada de los puertorriqueños en este tiempo. EUGENIA: (risita) JOSÉ: Que no era, que no había… EUGENIA: Que, que no guardaron nada. JOSÉ: ¿Qué no guardaron nada de los puertorriqueños en este tiempo? EUGENIA: Pues ese que sí. 44:20 JOSÉ: Entonces te… pero la manera en que me dijeron que no sabían de eso y que no… que yo estaba loco. No me dijeron eso pero ______ como yo estaba loco pensando que habían puertorriqueños ________ porque ahora la iglesia de St. Michael’s de Oldtown. Cómo que de Oldtown, tú sabes. Que es el área que hacía Oldtown… ¿Qué dicen los americanos que estén allí no recuerdan los puertorriqueños y dicen que no habían puertorriqueños allí… en este área? ¿Qué tú piensas de eso? �EUGENIA: (pausa) Bueno, que no miraron, que no negaron. (pausa) Pero nosotros le levantamos y le ayudamos. Así que (pausa) pero… (pausa) No sé que, que… (pausa) JOSÉ: Pero ellos dicen que no eran puertorriqueños y ¿tú crees que habían puertorriqueños en este tiempo o no? ¿O había ba… yo… (hablan a la misma vez) ¿Eran bastante? (pausa) No quiero poner palabras en la boca. ¿En este tiempo habían muchos puertorriqueños o no? 45:49 EUGENIA: Habían bastante puertorriqueños, habían no bastante. Iban a la iglesia bastante también. Lo que pasa que nunca quisieron reconocen con nosotros al hall o al trabajo que hacían. Es la única forma que quieren _______. Pero la iglesia San Miguel creció para arriba con los puertorriqueños. 46:22 (pausa) Bastante dinero que recibieron de los puertorriqueños. Así que… JOSÉ: ¿Y fue por el barrio año, fue por un año, nada más? 46:37 EUGENIA: No, seguro, eso fue por mucho. JOSÉ: ¿Por muchos años? EUGENIA: Seguro. JOSÉ: Eso fue le dijo una persona mayor no digo todo el mundo. Eso fue me dijo una persona una. 46:51 Allí fue un monaguillo, yo fui monaguillo también. ¿Tú recuerdas eso? ¿Cuándo fui monaguillo allí? EUGENIA: mhm JOSÉ: Cuando empezando la misa… EUGENIA: mhm JOSÉ: Yo estaba en la, la… ya era monaguillo en Santa Teresa entonces como estaba de eso ______ mesa _______ un monaguillo. Entonces yo fui para allá. So yo me recuerdo estaba lleno 250 personas allí. 47:20 EUGENIA: Más o menos. JOSÉ: ¿Más o menos? ¿Estaba bastante en el hall? ¿Eso ponía en el hall? Puedes son, no sé. Después siguieron viendo mass, puertorriqueño monaguillo de otros partes también. 47:32 EUGENIA: mhm JOSÉ: Este… Pero este no me recuerdo veía mucha gente que paga esa señora se mesa a mí. A mí no lo veo. (risa) A mí huele Pero yo no me ____ cosa… Este… Okay, so quiero hablar ahora… Tú estabas teniendo el clase de catecismo, en la casa… en la sala que lo tenía la silla, ¿verdad? 48:04 ¿Te recuerdas eso? EUGENIA: Claro. JOSÉ: Y… y ¿Cómo fue? ¿Cómo tú dabas catecismo? EUGENIA: Bueno, que yo lo sabía y leía en la Biblia y enseñaba que yo sabía. JOSÉ: ¿Leía mucho? ¿Por qué tú _________, no? 48:25 �EUGENIA: Yo leía y yo enseñó a mi hermano. JOSÉ: ¿Altolibria? ¿A leer? 48:32 EUGENIA: Claro. JOSÉ: Entonces, en la casa. ¿Enseñó en la casa de él? EUGENIA: mhm JOSÉ: ¿Entonces tú leíste, leíste la, la, la Biblia a los muchachos? EUGENIA: La memoria también tú sabes… como eso yo lo sé que estaba niña. JOSÉ: Uh huh. EUGENIA: Pues yo… JOSÉ: ¿Tú enseñabas a ella? EUGENIA: Enseñaba… 48:51 JOSÉ: __________ ¿Represente de memoria? EUGENIA: Yo le decía y yo lo repetía. JOSÉ: Y si no le repiten, ¿qué pasaba? EUGENIA: Nada a ellos. JOSÉ: ¿A ello? EUGENIA: (risa) JOSÉ: Yo digo que decía. 49:03 EUGENIA: Yo decía que ______ Ellos contestaban muy bien. Muy bien. JOSÉ: Entonces ¿Cuántos muchachos venían, como 15, 20, o como cuanto viene andazo? 49:11 EUGENIA: Más o menos como 15. JOSÉ: ¿Como 15? ______________ EUGENIA: Uh huh. 49:17 JOSÉ: Entonces, tú, ¿tú les enseñaba una cosa y ellos tienen que repetir, “No, señora” o “Sí, señora”? EUGENIA: Sí, uh huh, más o menos. JOSÉ: ¿Pero todo les enseñó de eso? 49:27 EUGENIA: Pues seguro. JOSÉ: ¿Diciendo “No, señora, sí, señora”? EUGENIA: Uh huh. �JOSÉ: Entonces ______ contestar EUGENIA: Pues claro, entonces yo enseñaba el padre nuestro y que repitieron según yo iba diciéndolo que yo dijeron detrás de lo que decía. 49:42 JOSÉ: Okay. A memoria. EUGENIA: Enseñaba. JOSÉ: Solo les enseñaba a memoria. EUGENIA: Uh huh. 49:47 JOSÉ: Y entonces cuando era cabecido, ¿que lo decía? EUGENIA: __________ estaba poniendo en rodillas (ambos ríen) JOSÉ: ________ Era una maestra (ríen) Allá enseña abuso, enseña abuso. EUGENIA: Enseña abuso. 50:04 JOSÉ: A medio ___________Lo rodellaba allí. __ EUGENIA: Uh, yo rodilla JOSÉ: ¿Cabecido duro? EUGENIA: Pero casi nunca yo lo puse. JOSÉ: Okay, sí. EUGENIA: Siempre yo… lo consideraba. JOSÉ: Pero yo lo hacía porque EUGENIA: A yo respetaban. JOSÉ: Respetaba. A los latinos respetan. ¿La mayoría latino? EUGENIA: Pues todo. JOSÉ: Todo… (interrumpido) EUGENIA: No sabían inglés. JOSÉ: ¿Todos no saben inglés? So tenían que decir en español… EUGENIA: Y aprendérselo en inglés. JOSÉ: ¿Y repetirlo? EUGENIA: mhm JOSÉ: ¿Repetirlo? EUGENIA: Repetirlo. �JOSÉ: ¿Y dicen, “Sí, señora, no señora”? EUGENIA: Uh huh. (José ríe y Eugenia empieza a reír también) JOSÉ: Okay, entonces, ¿qué pasó cuando se graduaban como ya tú decías? Entonces, ¿tú tienes un librito conseguía? EUGENIA: Pues yo le conseguí, le conseguí a el… JOSÉ: ¿El librito? EUGENIA: El librito. JOSÉ: ¿Y a donde lo conseguiste? EUGENIA: Un padre me lo daba. JOSÉ: ¿Cuál padre? EUGENIA: Padre Rodan y Padre… 51:13 JOSÉ: ¿Padre Rodan allí del catedral? ¿Iba allí también? EUGENIA: Mhm JOSÉ: O, ¿padre de la catedral? EUGENIA: De la catedral. JOSÉ: ¿Pero ese fue en San Miguel e iba también o ya estaba sin volvió allí? 51:26 EUGENIA: Porque San Miguel… que yo no me acuerdo. Que yo no me recuerdo. JOSÉ: Okay. Porque allí estaba Padre Catherine. EUGENIA: ¿Catarín? JOSÉ: Catarín. EUGENIA: Fue Catalino. JOSÉ: Catalino… Padre Catherine. Padre Catherine. Pero entonces no trabajo está allí. Era de la __________ 51:44 EUGENIA: En, en, en el otro lado. JOSÉ: Era la catedral de allá. EUGENIA: mhm JOSÉ: Okay todo conocía a él de la catedral. EUGENIA: mhm JOSÉ: Entonces okay _________ de lo grande. 51:53 EUGENIA: Mhm �JOSÉ: De ya de la Wabush. ¿Tú ibas a Wabush también? EUGENIA: Pues ya era no iba. 52:01 JOSÉ: ¿A la Wabush también ibas? EUGENIA: mhm JOSÉ: A la, no, Wabush por al lado de la catedral. ¿Tú ibas ya? EUGENIA: Pues claro. JOSÉ: ¿A que ibas ya? EUGENIA: Pues, para la iglesia. JOSÉ: O, ¿a un tiempo fue de la catedral? EUGENIA: Sí. JOSÉ: Okay. EUGENIA: Y después de esto… (interrumpida) JOSÉ: ¿Pero en este tiempo estaba en la San Miguel? ¿Con Padre Catherine? 52:29 EUGENIA: mhm JOSÉ: Y cuando se graduaba, ¿entonces eso que _______, entonces eso? EUGENIA: Pues estaba Padre Rodan. 52:38 JOSÉ: Okay. EUGENIA: Y… Catherine. JOSÉ: ¿Catherine? ¿Trabajan juntos? EUGENIA: No me recuerdo. Que no me recuerdo pero yo sé que trabajaron que yo estaba. JOSÉ: Uh huh. EUGENIA: Yo no recuerdo. Son tantos años que ya… JOSÉ: Yo sé. Entonces te… (pausa) Solta… tiene el catecismo. Y, y, y está graduando un muchacho. EUGENIA: mhm JOSÉ: ¿Quién vino a ver uh… ¿Cómo se graduaban? Tenía que venir el padre, ¿no? 53:17 EUGENIA: Claro. JOSÉ: ¿Cuál padre vino? EUGENIA: No me recuerdo tampoco. JOSÉ: ¿Catherine? ¿Padre Catherine? Yo me recuerdo. �EUGENIA: Padre Catherine, Padre Rodan. JOSÉ: Porque Rodan era hispano. 53:32 EUGENIA: Pues hispano, era hispano que él… JOSÉ: ¿El que venía? ¿Pero también vino el Padre Catherine que hablaba español? EUGENIA: mhm JOSÉ: ¿So entonces él le preguntaba a ellos la pregunta de…? 53:45 EUGENIA: Uh huh, a ver si sabían. JOSÉ: ¿Qué le pregunta? EUGENIA: Pues los mandamientos. JOSÉ: ¿Les preguntaba los mandamientos? EUGENIA: JOSÉ: ¿Y los muchachos los contestaban? EUGENIA: Sí. JOSÉ: ¿Dicen, “Sí, señor”? (ríen) ¿Ya todo les entrenías? EUGENIA: Uh huh. JOSÉ: ¿Dicen, “Sí, señor” y dicen los mandamientos? EUGENIA: Uh huh. 54:04 JOSÉ: ¿Y eso? Entonces… (interrumpido) EUGENIA: Tienen que decir y cerrarlos, los, los sacramentos eran los mandamientos de la ley de Dios y hicieron los mandamientos de la iglesia. JOSÉ: Okay. EUGENIA: Pues dan los sacramentos, dan los mandamientos de la ley de Dios y también están los mandamientos de la iglesia. Que todos son de la iglesia pero se dividen en esa forma. 54:31 JOSÉ: Mm. ¿Y esto estaba en el librito que tú tenías? EUGENIA: Pues claro. JOSÉ: ¿Qué te dio el padre? EUGENIA: Uh huh. La Biblia también. JOSÉ: ¿_______ la Biblia también? EUGENIA: Mhm JOSÉ: Y eso… (interrumpido) �EUGENIA: A lo que yo sabía que yo no tenía que leerlo porque ya lo supieron. 54:52 JOSÉ: Y entonces se graduaba allí ___________ tan preparado EUGENIA: Están preparado por el __________. JOSÉ: ¿Recibieron la primera comunión? EUGENIA: mhm JOSÉ: ¿So todos estos muchachos no iban a la iglesia católica, entonces? EUGENIA: No… (interrumpida) 55:08 JOSÉ: ¿En la escuela pública? EUGENIA: Estaba una escuela pública. Algunos iban después de la iglesia católica. JOSÉ: ¿Fueron al público en este tiempo o no? 55:16 EUGENIA: En este tiempo… (interrumpida) JOSÉ: Porque no tienen dinero para ir la iglesia católica. EUGENIA: Así era. JOSÉ: ¿Así era? EUGENIA: mhm JOSÉ: So entonces… pero ya se hace tan graduando para recibir la primera comunión. Entonces, ¿fueron a donde daban la primera comunión, en San Miguel? EUGENIA: En el hall. JOSÉ: ¿O en el hall? ¿No en la capilla? EUGENIA: No. Primero empezó cuando eran poquitos en el hall. Después siguieron creciendo entonces le dieron en la misa… (interrumpido) JOSÉ: ¿Pero entonces tú seguiste dando clase de catecismo? EUGENIA: Yo seguí dando clases de catecismo. JOSÉ: Entonces pues ¿se graduaron algunos en la capilla? EUGENIA: Uh huh. JOSÉ: Entonces ¿cómo iba victi hoy? 55:59 EUGENIA: No me recuerdo… Bueno, la nena estaba vestida en blanco. JOSÉ: ¿De blanco? EUGENIA: Y los muchachos pantalones y camisa blanco y pantalones negros. JOSÉ: ¿Pantalones negros? ¿Y un corban? �EUGENIA: No, corban, no. JOSÉ: ¿Pero tienen que tener un corbata? 56:17 EUGENIA: Unasito. JOSÉ: Unasito, pantalones negros… EUGENIA: y la camisa JOSÉ: Y la camisa. Pero algunos tenían un gabán también, ¿no? EUGENIA: Bueno, que por el frío, también, si estaba haciendo el frío. JOSÉ: Pero ¿tuviera la camisa estaba bien? EUGENIA: Uh huh 56:35 JOSÉ: ¿Que eran pobre _________ de eso? EUGENIA: Sí. JOSÉ: Pero algunos de ellos eran de familia chalatani? 56:43 EUGENIA: Cuando no (ambos ríen) JOSÉ: Porque eran de barrio, ¿no? EUGENIA: Uh huh. JOSÉ: No estamos hablando de niños de clase alta. Estoy hablando de ______________ 56:58 EUGENIA: Pues claro. JOSÉ: So, pero entonces estabas enseñando disciplina también, ¿no? EUGENIA: Pues claro que sí. JOSÉ: _________ EUGENIA: No no no no no. ________________ haciéndome la pregunta es cierto. JOSÉ: hmm. EUGENIA: Todo es cierto. JOSÉ: ¿Qué es cierto? EUGENIA: De que, de que (pausa) Ellos… ya se me olvidó de lo que estábamos hablando. JOSÉ: Yo dijera que era chalatan a los padres. ¿Tú sabes que quiero decir de eso? EUGENIA: No, no. JOSÉ: Que dice algunos de los padres estaban en problema o algo tomaba o… EUGENIA: Tomar, casi todos tomaban. 57:40 (ríen) �JOSÉ: ¿Eso todos eran casi tomaban? EUGENIA: _________ de los sacerdotes no, papá de los muchachos. JOSÉ: Sí. 57:47 EUGENIA: Seguro. JOSÉ: ¿Todos recochinearon el __________ del barrio? EUGENIA: Pues seguro. Yo iba casa por casa donde queda había a lo último sacerdote como sabía que yo era daba el catecismo ________ enviaba para la casa 58:02 JOSÉ: ¿Enviaba ya? EUGENIA: Seguro. JOSÉ: ¿Pero tú empezabas viendo casa por casa? EUGENIA: Seguro. Viendo casa por casa por la necesidad que había de que nos enseñaba la religión de los muchachos puertorriqueños. Y entonces había una de falta de conocimiento de Dios. Entonces yo empecé en eso. JOSÉ: Entonces tú hiciste el paquete te trabajo 58:29 EUGENIA: No no no, yo lo hice por amor a Dios. JOSÉ: Oh, oh. EUGENIA: Seguro. JOSÉ: ¿Por amor _____? (interrumpido) EUGENIA: Por la necesidad que esos muchachos estaban conocer madio. 58:40 JOSÉ: ¿Porque tú pensabas que tenían que conocer a Dios? EUGENIA: Porque no les enseñaban y se iban a salvan los bandoleros por la calle. JOSÉ: Oh, entonces ibas _____________ de los __________ 58:43 EUGENIA: Yo quería sacarlos de los sitios donde no aprendían cosas de Dios. Creo que aprenden pelean. (ríen) JOSÉ: ¿Y donde era este sitio? ¿En la calle donde se quita? EUGENIA: Seguro. JOSÉ: ¿Estaban peleando siempre? ¿En este tiempo eran pandía? EUGENIA: ¡Uh! JOSÉ: ¿Qué hay era?59:18 EUGENIA: Siempre habían pandías. Que yo sé que hubieron pandías. �JOSÉ: ¿_________ Callejera? ¿Callejera? EUGENIA: Callejera. JOSÉ: Pero al principio de tú llega allí a esta área este pandía americana, ¿no? EUGENIA: mhm JOSÉ: Entonces (interrumpido) EUGENIA: Si odiaban a los puertorriqueños. JOSÉ: ¿La pandía americana? ¿Odiaba a los puertorriqueños? EUGENIA: mhm JOSÉ: ¿Cae encima de los puertorriqueños? EUGENIA: Peleaban todos. JOSÉ: ¿Se peleaban? Pero yo sé en la quinda, había una quinda americana ¿no? ¿La pandía americana? enfrente de la tienda, EUGENIA: No me recuerdo, no me recuerdo. JOSÉ: No recuerdas. EUGENIA: Son muchos años. JOSÉ: ¿Pero había una pandía americana? EUGENIA: Sí. No querían los sábados los puertorriqueños. JOSÉ: ¿Los odiaban? EUGENIA: No, odiaban a todos 1:00:12 JOSÉ: Los odiaban. No era, no era, no era que era de pandía u otro pandía (hablan a la misma vez) EUGENIA: No no no no. JOSÉ: Odiaban a los puertorriqueños. EUGENIA: Le preciaban. JOSÉ: ¿A los puertorriqueños? EUGENIA: Claro. 1:00:22 JOSÉ: ¿Importaban joven o viejo? EUGENIA: A todos, a todos les preciaban. JOSÉ: ¿A todos los puertorriqueños preciaban? 1:00:29 EUGENIA: Era como si tuviera quitándoles algo de ellos. Más o menos. �JOSÉ: ¿Cómo quitándoles algo de ellos? (hablan a la misma vez) EUGENIA: Lo más es como tú tienes tu casa, tu grupo y entonces yo vengo y me hago amistad como con este grupo. Y entonces tú dices, “¿a tú estás quitando esto? Esto es mío.” Más o menos. 1:01:10 JOSÉ: So yo pensaba _____ quitando la casa por ellos o… EUGENIA: Uh huh. JOSÉ: ¿o el grupito? ¿El grupo de ellos? ¿A ellos controlaban a eso primero? 1:01:20 EUGENIA: Ellos controlaban. JOSÉ: Entonces (interrumpido) EUGENIA: _______Controlaban. Ese es la palabra JOSÉ: Controlaban. ¿Esa es la palabra correcta? Ellos controlaban. EUGENIA: mhm JOSÉ: Entonces, este… ¿nosotros estabamos entrando allí? EUGENIA: Entonces nosotros éramos como… la palabra que nosotros los puertorriqueños siempre usamos “metiches.” JOSÉ: ¿Metiches? EUGENIA: (risa) __________ no importa (ríe mucho) JOSÉ: Entonces eran metiches. ¿Metiches? EUGENIA: Metiches. JOSÉ: Cuando entraban a esa área, que se llama a Lincoln Park, ahora. EUGENIA: Uh huh JOSÉ: ¿eran los metiches? EUGENIA: Uh huh. (ambos ríen) JOSÉ: Entonces EUGENIA: Más o menos. JOSÉ: Para ellos. 1:02:07 EUGENIA: Para ellos. JOSÉ Y EUGENIA: Los metiches. JOSÉ: ¿Por eso les caen encima de todo? EUGENIA: Claro. JOSÉ: Yo me recuerdo que caen encima de echarvia. 1:02:17 �EUGENIA: _____________________ JOSÉ: ¿También? ¿Iberia patral? EUGENIA: Claro, yo no sabía andar. JOSÉ: ______ en otro grupo. EUGENIA: mhm JOSÉ: So entonces echanvia empezaba a pelear con otro grupo EUGENIA: Entonces (interrumpida) JOSÉ: Porque ¿había grupo italiano y eso? EUGENIA: Algo Jiménez, Rodríguez y… JOSÉ: ¿Y todo el mundo? Y hacía _________ americano. 1:02:44 EUGENIA: Pues claro. JOSÉ: ¿Hiciera la cosa? EUGENIA: Hiciera la cosa. JOSÉ: Y entonces te… siempre hacía la pandía puertorriqueña, porque antes era una pandía puertorriqueña, ¿no? EUGENIA: Era puertorriqueña esta pandía. JOSÉ: Llegaron los puertorriqueños… EUGENIA: Y se quedaron. (risa) JOSÉ: ¿Echaría y organizara en seguida? ¿A pelear con los americanos? EUGENIA: A pelear. JOSÉ: ¿Hacer la cosa? EUGENIA: Pues pasa ciudadanos americanos. No podían depreciar a nosotros. Nosotros somos ciudadanos y no… hablaba sino somos ciudadanos. JOSÉ: (amos ríen) Para que lo sepan. Así así era. 1:03:26 EUGENIA: Para que lo sepan. (ríe) JOSÉ: Entonces este… somos ciudadanos, y entonces aquí ¿_________ igual? EUGENIA: mhm JOSÉ: ¿Pensaba, o como tú pensabas? EUGENIA: Entonces yo decía pasiva solo yo dio …________. como somos ciudadanos porque no ______________. �JOSÉ: ¿Y lo tiraban? EUGENIA: Sí. Seguro. No depreciaban. JOSÉ: Como, pero ¿de qué manera? ¿Cómo … EUGENIA: Pues era de no depreciaba en forma que no llegaban a nosotros y se iban por este calle, la tercera. Cruzaban a otro lado. JOSÉ: ¿Eso te pasa a ti? 1:04:10 EUGENIA: Yo sé a veces. JOSÉ: ¿A ti? EUGENIA: Claro. JOSÉ: ¿Como ellos andaban en la calle te veían y cruzaban la calle? EUGENIA: Cruzaban por otro lado. Cambió la cara, no miraban. JOSÉ: ¿Y no te miraban? Tú lo _____________ 1:04:24 EUGENIA: No, seguro. JOSÉ: Te meten la palabra en la boca. EUGENIA: Siempre yo le decía a “Good morning” o “Goodbye” o algo. Las palabritas que sabía yo decía. JOSÉ: ¿Tú ____ en seguida? EUGENIA: Seguro. 1:04:41 JOSÉ: ¿Y entonces que decían allí? ¿Dicen nada? EUGENIA: Nada. Algunos decían, “Thank you”o algo. JOSÉ: Algunos. ¿Pero otros no? EUGENIA: Otros no. Otros cambiaban. JOSÉ: ¿So veía en la cara que no querían? EUGENIA: mhm. (pausa) Al principio, cuando los puertorriqueños llegaron a Estados Unidos, no valían nada. JOSÉ: ¿Tú crees? EUGENIA: Claro. 1:05:10 JOSÉ: ¿Por qué tú decías eso? Pues eran ciudadanos. EUGENIA: Eran ciudadanos pero ellos no pero los americanos no querían. Esto reconocerlo. Todavía esto no reconocerlos… tantos puertorriqueños que hay. Así. Somos extraños. JOSÉ: ¿Y en este tiempo __________? 1:05:33 �EUGENIA: Sí. Ahora que tú sabes que de donde quiera y que uno lo ayudada a ellos a subir. O que cuantos puertorriqueños no han trabajado para los americanos. (pausa) Y les pagan renta a los americanos. Así que yo creo que si no reconocen a los puertorriqueños, como que somos ciudadanos _________.Entonces van a esperar a cuando. JOSÉ: So entonces allí trabajaste con la San Miguel hiciste otro catecismo, ¿verdad? ¿O tres o cuatro u otro, algo así? EUGENIA: Sí. 1:06:24 Yo… catecismo a grupo de muchachos… JOSÉ: ¿Grupo de muchachos? ¿Otro grupo de muchachos allí en la Dayton? EUGENIA: Seguro. Lo que… JOSÉ: ¿Se graduaban? EUGENIA: Se graduaban. Pues seguían, ______ a la iglesia y… JOSÉ: ¿Quedaban a la iglesia? EUGENIA: Pues claro. JOSÉ: ¿Eso fue parte de las Damas de María? EUGENIA: Pues claro. Era catecismo, una enseñanza religiosa. 1:06:50 JOSÉ: Okay. EUGENIA: mhm JOSÉ: Y entonces… ¿después eso lo cambiamos por la Santa Teresa? Porque ya ese estaba primer grado en Santa Teresa. EUGENIA: mhm JOSÉ: Jenny estaba en Santa Teresa y yo estuve en el seis grado, grado seis… en Santa Teresa. Claro, seis, siete, ocho. EUGENIA: mhm JOSÉ: ¿Cómo nosotros fuimos a Santa Teresa? Como, lo _____ decir eso. 1:07:20 EUGENIA: No me recuerdo ya. JOSÉ: ¿Pero tú conocías a padre en Santa Teresa? EUGENIA: Pues claro porque uno va a conociendo, conociendo según ________ de la JOSÉ: Porque nosotros no tenían dinero. ¿Cómo entramos a esta iglesia? EUGENIA: Iban a la misa. JOSÉ: ¿Era una misa? EUGENIA: Pues claro. �JOSÉ: ¿De Santa Teresa? EUGENIA: Y la misa todo el sacerdote no pueden sacar a nadie de la iglesia. JOSÉ: ¿Pero reciben a la misa…? ¿Pero tú trabajaste también, en la Santa Teresa? EUGENIA: Pues claro. Yo iba a la misa que daba en inglés que en español. JOSÉ: ¿Se empieza darles a la misa en inglés? EUGENIA: uh huh JOSÉ: Entonces como… ¿habían muchos puertorriqueños viendo a la misa en inglés? EUGENIA: Había no bastante. JOSÉ: ¿En la misa de inglés? EUGENIA: mhm. Chur Rodríguez y eso. JOSÉ: ¿En Santa Teresa? Estoy hablando de Santa Teresa ahora, no de San Miguel. De Santa Teresa en el Quemal y la armitage. __________ rompo. ________ la Santa Teresa y entonces yo me metí allí se metió ____ Jenny y _______ y Mina también, yo creo. EUGENIA: mhm 1:08:40 JOSÉ: Entonces, ¿en la Santa Teresa no hay misa hispana allí? ¿So como empezó la cosa eso? ¿De la misa allí? EUGENIA: ¿Cómo empecé a la misa? JOSÉ: Sí, ¿Cómo empieza la misa hispana allí en Santa Teresa? ¿Cómo empezó? 1:09:00 EUGENIA: Yo sé que estaba uno _____ Fransisco Rodríguez o algo que también Echavía. JOSÉ: Okay. ¿Titi? EUGENIA: Titi. Pues, y Chu. JOSÉ: Okay. EUGENIA: Todos obraron y siguiendo introduciendo. Seguimos entrando unos a nosotros nos avisábamos ataque al sacerdote vio que queda mucho bastante en _______ dio la misa hispana. JOSÉ: Pero entonces tuvieron que buscar una petición me dijeron. EUGENIA: Sí. JOSÉ: Para que llenar a papel para que dar una misa en español. 1:09:42 EUGENIA: Eso ___ decir. De papel, de cosa no te _____ decir. JOSÉ: Okay. EUGENIA: Yo sé que dijeron una vez en español. �JOSÉ: Okay. Entonces pero… no iba gente… yo me recuerdo que tú fuiste con Chu una vez. En vez de Chu… a una casa para predicar y diera el rosario. ¿Y él tenía que ver con la misa también? 1:10:08 EUGENIA: Era que íbamos porque si pedían que se llevara a un rosario o algo y a predican. JOSÉ: Okay. EUGENIA: Pues siempre predicaban algo. Siempre Chu predicaba. JOSÉ: Y tú le invitaba a él porque era todo conocía de San Miguel. EUGENIA: No, invitaba a mí. JOSÉ: ¿invitaba a ti? EUGENIA: Pues claro. Chu Rodríguez porque estábamos todos juntos. 1:10:35 JOSÉ: ¿Todos estaban juntos, los Caballeros y las Damas? EUGENIA: Pues, seguro, las Damas de María y los Caballeros de San Juan. JOSÉ: Pero te invitaba a ti porque fuera para dar palabra de rosario. EUGENIA: Para ayudar. JOSÉ: ¿Pero tú rezaba el rosario? EUGENIA: Pues claro. 1:10:47 JOSÉ: ¿Pero ti como cien como rezar el rosario? EUGENIA: Pues yo rezaba el rosario. JOSÉ: Okay. EUGENIA: Y el rosario pues siempre algunos dicen una palabrita, otra cosa. 1:10:58 JOSÉ: Entonces… y ¿Chu predicaba? EUGENIA: Chu predicaba. JOSÉ: ¿Pues tú rezabas el rosario y Chu predicaba? EUGENIA: mhm JOSÉ: ¿Había otra gente allí? EUGENIA: Claro. Había los Calistos. JOSÉ: ¿Los Calistos también allí eso? ¿En Santa Teresa también? Esto consideraban número nueve. Oh, era porque Monín allí era y estaba Glota, yo creo. EUGENIA: Compaña Montego JOSÉ: ¿Montego allí? ¿Estaba Glota también? �EUGENIA: Lo último, Carmela la última ___ llega de nosotros JOSÉ: ¿Carmela también vino jueves después? ¿Qué era lo último? Porque yo era todavía en la San Miguel. EUGENIA: mhm JOSÉ: Yo estaba allá. Entonces ¿ya estaba San Miguel y estaba Santa Terea también subiendo? EUGENIA: Los hispanos iban a donde quieren para participa a _____________. JOSÉ: Ya de eso. Yo me recuerdo que allí en el área de Lincoln Park, iba puerta por puerta cada la gente, ¿no? EUGENIA: Pues claro, avisaban que se daba una misa o algo. 1:12:10 JOSÉ: ¿Iban por San Miguel? EUGENIA: Claro que sí. Se avisaban. Se llevaron un papel o algo. JOSÉ: Entonces (interrumpido) EUGENIA: Invitaban. JOSÉ: Invitaban. Entonces allí también empezaron a daba la misa en el hall, ¿no? ¿En Santa Teresa? EUGENIA: mhm JOSÉ: ¿No fue en la capilla? Fue en el hall. 1:12:29 EUGENIA: No, primero era en el hall y cuando creció el grupo entonces lo daban en la iglesia. JOSÉ: Eso era le dio a los Caballeros. ¿Así metían a ellos? EUGENIA: mhm JOSÉ: Me daban el hall porque en la, en la catedral también lo daban un un primont. (ríe) En la catedral era en un _______, en la San Miguel lo daba en el hall de Dao. EUGENIA: mhm JOSÉ: Que es el cuatro cuarenta tres de la Eugeni. EUGENIA: mhm JOSÉ: Y en la Santa Teresa era la Quemar, en la hall de la Quemar. EUGENIA: mhm JOSÉ: Y entonces y después fue que te dejaron misa en español en la iglesia. EUGENIA: Claro. 1:13:09 JOSÉ: Okay. Entonces este… Pero hay… ¿sería también que era alguna de la gente que no quería entrar los puertorriqueños todavía? �EUGENIA: Como adentro (interrumpida) JOSÉ: ¿Cómo algunos de los americanos no querían que entrada? EUGENIA: Pues sí, algunos americanos (interrumpida) JOSÉ: No quiero poner las palabras en la boca. EUGENIA: No no no los americanos… eran desconocidos. JOSÉ: Okay. EUGENIA: Los puertorriqueños eran desconocidos entonces como no los conocían, pues no van a abrirte la iglesia para que metiera. 1:13:42 JOSÉ: Okay. EUGENIA: Entonces había que lleva un grupo grande porque como van a adaptar luya todos persona. Pero cuando el sacerdote vio queda un grupo grande que había una necesidad de dando la misa, pues mira. Como la misa en Latín. Pues uno le entiende. La predicación como era en inglés sabe porque casi él que no sabía inglés pues no le entendía. Pero ya más o menos uno la misa los sábados. 1:14:22 JOSÉ: Porque era Latín y eso tiene en… EUGENIA: Claro que sí. JOSÉ: ¿común todo el mundo? EUGENIA: uh huh JOSÉ: Y entonces también los americanos también se sentían como parte. EUGENIA: Pues claro que sí (hablan a la misma vez) había un grupo de los americanos… JOSÉ: Después porque es un, es un… que hubiera estaba creciendo… EUGENIA: Seguro, seguro compartían como todo. 1:14:39 JOSÉ: Compartían y eso. A último se unió al principio. EUGENIA: Claro que sí. Al principio no. JOSÉ: Al principio porque eran como desconocidos. EUGENIA: uh huh JOSÉ: Pero entonces vieron que los… 1:14:50 EUGENIA: Claro. JOSÉ: ¿Tú crees que los sacerdotes te ayudaron en eso para aplicar a los americanos? EUGENIA: Seguro. Seguro que sí. 1:14:58 JOSÉ: Que había… que dejara la… �EUGENIA: Padre Rodán, y Padre… JOSÉ: ¿Hablaban y eso? EUGENIA: Pues claro. Pues yo (interrumpida) JOSÉ: ¿Ellos saben como que había un problema allí? EUGENIA: Que había que ayudaño. JOSÉ: Okay, ¿le ______aron que ayudaron a los latinos o los hispanos? EUGENIA: Claro que sí. 1:15:14 JOSÉ: Pues pero había como ¿ medio conflicto que calleito? EUGENIA: mhm JOSÉ: ¿Un conflicto, un conflicto callado? EUGENIA: Callado. JOSÉ: No quiero poner palabras en la boca. EUGENIA: No no, hay es exactamente eso que tú estás diciendo así era. JOSÉ: ¿Qué era? EUGENIA: Que era conflicto o sea algo, como era algo desconocido pues no querían. Pero cuando vieron que el importante uno que nosotros daban dinero y __________ dinero también. JOSÉ: Pero no era por el dinero, era por tú. EUGENIA: Era… JOSÉ: yo por el dinero EUGENIA: No no no. Claro, por el dinero también pero de todas las maneras ellos vieron una necesidad que queda muchos puertorriqueños, muchos latinos. Y entonces necesitaban que nos dieron la misa. 1:16:14 JOSÉ: Y entonces ¿también en la área de Lincoln Park se está convirtiendo en muchos puertorriqueños ahora? EUGENIA: Uh huh. JOSÉ: ¿Y muchos latinos? EUGENIA: Claro. JOSÉ: ¿Hay más gente viviendo allí en este área? EUGENIA: Ahora sí, ahora está lleno. JOSÉ: ¿Está lleno de gente? �EUGENIA: Claro. Pero nosotros cuando yo fui a pesar no había nada puertorriqueño. JOSÉ: ¿No había? Pero entonces se llenó de hispanos y ¿todavía estaban no lo que dando misa en el hall? EUGENIA: No. JOSÉ: ¿Ya cuando se llenó de hispanos y tuviera que hacerlo? 1:16:46 ¿Cuándo se llenó Lincoln Park, el área de hispanos, entonces por que dieron la misa en español? EUGENIA: Uh huh. JOSÉ: Porque había mucho, muchos latinos, ¿verdad? EUGENIA: Claro. JOSÉ: So entonces, okay. Entonces se tiraban un baile también, ¿no? ¿En la Santa Teresa? EUGENIA: Seguro. JOSÉ: ¿Tenía una oficina, Uds.? EUGENIA: ¿Una qué? JOSÉ: O sea, ahora aparte de la iglesia también ¿había los caballeros de San Juan tenían un apartamento? ¿Un club? ¿Tenían un club _____ todo eso? EUGENIA: Para todo eso. JOSÉ: ¿Aparte? 1:17:19 EUGENIA: mhm JOSÉ: A mí máquina, yo me recuerdo. ______ también allí a nosotros ¿________ las Damas o los Caballeros de San Juan? EUGENIA: Ah, no reunían todos. JOSÉ: ¿El hall era solamente para el baile grande y para la misa? Pero ¿entonces los Caballeros de San Juan y las Damas de María tenían su propio hall en ____ de Quemal? ¿Y la armitage en la norte u oeste de la de la Quemal y armitage Quemal? EUGENIA: Así era. 1:17:59 JOSÉ: Y entonces allí se hacían actividades porque yo me recuerdo Monín viendo Monín hace eso. ¿Qué actividades hacían hay? EUGENIA: Habían bailes. JOSÉ: ¿Bailes? Pero entonces empezaron trabajado en el hall también. ¿Uds. verdad? ¿Sacálo de pandilla? EUGENIA: Ha sacado la pandilla traerlo para la iglesia. 1:18:23 �JOSÉ: Pues yo recuerdo que había parijuana, pari (ríe) ¿Había un pandilla pari? ¿________ que no había problema? ¿Pero todo el mundo iba a _____? (ríe) Yo me recuerdo iban los Young Lords y los, ¿los blackie? ¿Habían los Flaming Arrow? ____________________ Todo el mundo allí. Los rebels, los Trojans. ____________ ¿De los Latin Kings? EUGENIA: Iban todo. 1:19:05 JOSÉ: ¿Iban todo así? Eso se llenaba todo. Y los Paragons. ¿Había un grupo se llamado los Paragons también? ¿Los Flaming Arrows? ¿Pure esis y Queens? ¿Iban todos esos? EUGENIA: mhm JOSÉ: Este. (pausa) Y que y ¿Uds. llevaban bien? Era… porque era ____molestaba_ de ello. Y era pandilla. EUGENIA: No… JOSÉ: ¿Te dan miedo de la pandilla? EUGENIA: Bueno, no le tenía. JOSÉ: ¿Tú tenía miedo? EUGENIA: Eso era mi amigo. JOSÉ: ¿Tu amigo? (Eugenia ríe) ¿la pandilla? Bueno, a mi tú mencionas ____ porque estaba fundamento se arigo. ¿Tú te recuerdas eso? EUGENIA: No, no me recuerdo. JOSÉ: (ríe) A mí me sacó de eso. A ocho nade. EUGENIA: No me recuerdo. JOSÉ: ¿No recuerdas eso? EUGENIA: No me recuerdo. JOSÉ: También cosinante algo _____________ ¿Tú no recuerdas eso de consinante? EUGENIA: Yo solo metía en la cocina ayudando. JOSÉ: No pero yo digo para jóvenes. (hablan a la misma vez) Digo _____consinante_____________ EUGENIA: Seguro que sí. JOSÉ: Tú eres… señora mexicana que se llama Mrs. Eragon. Como mexicana ________________________ después. Pero ya cocinaba mucho tú también ¿cocinabas para Young Lords y ella también? EUGENIA: mhm 1:20:30 JOSÉ: Que fui a pecar otra vez_____ ¿Tú no recuerdas de eso? EUGENIA: No me recuerdo que hace tantos los años. �JOSÉ: Está olvidándole. EUGENIA: Estoy durmiendo, ¿eh? 1:20:42 JOSÉ: ¿Tienes sueño? EUGENIA: Tengo sueño. JOSÉ: Okay, cinco minutos más. EUGENIA: Es mucho, cinco minutos. JOSÉ: (ríen) EUGENIA: Muchacho... Solo once y media. JOSÉ: Okay entonces… entonces te… perdona un momento… Okay, entonces este… Cuando tú estabas en la Santa Teresa…Nosotros estábamos en la Santa Teresa viviendo en el veintiuno diecisiete del piso. El piso de Dickens. 1:21:18 EUGENIA: mhm JOSÉ: ¿Entonces vivía allí muchos años? Entonces de allí, entonces… para la Clairmont y porque… ¿Qué te recuerdas de eso y entonces porque mudamos? ¿Qué estaba pasando en el área porque mudamos? EUGENIA: Era que tu papá quería mudarse. JOSÉ: ¿El quería mudarse? EUGENIA: El quería mudarse donde eran más latinos. JOSÉ: Pero, okay. 1:21:53 EUGENIA: Eso era todo. Se mudaba de esa forma. JOSÉ: Pero ¿entonces ya no era latinos allí? EUGENIA: Habían latinos pero él quería conocer más. JOSÉ: ¿Conocer más? EUGENIA: Uh huh. JOSÉ: Y entonces este… ¿Y no subieran renta o nada eso? EUGENIA: No, eso subiera la renta o alguno cuando uno votaba a una subiera la renta. JOSÉ: ¿Cómo eso? EUGENIA: Cuando quiera mudara, subir la renta. JOSÉ: So allí pagaba como, yo creo, como ochenta peso. EUGENIA: No sé. �JOSÉ: Pero entonces ¿subieron como 4, 7 o algo _______ a otro? EUGENIA: No sé. JOSÉ: ¿Era que hacía? ¿No sabes? _____________ EUGENIA: No recuerdo. JOSÉ: Pero ¿subieron la renta? EUGENIA: Subiera la renta entonces por unos estaban buscando porque estaban más baratos. Eso era. JOSÉ: ¿Los puertorriqueños buscan los más baratos? EUGENIA: Los más baratos. Siempre buscaban lo más baratos. Y buscaban cuando eran más puertorriqueños para estar los latinos juntos. 1:22:52 JOSÉ: ¿So siempre los puertorriqueños buscan donde viven más puertorriqueños? EUGENIA: Uh huh, se buscaban uno a los otros. JOSÉ: ¿Siguieron mudándose cada cuadra detrás de otros? EUGENIA: Uh huh. Se mudaban uno, “Mira renta de aquella apartamento” todo junto ___________todos estaban buscando unidad puertorriqueña. JOSÉ: ¿Como unidad puertorriqueña? 1:23:23 EUGENIA: Pues _________ tú tienes una familia… y lo puertorriqueña era no como una familia. JOSÉ: ¿La clase puertorriqueña? EUGENIA: Pues claro. 1:23:35 JOSÉ: ¿Por eso se buscaban? EUGENIA: Pues buscaban uno a otros. JOSÉ: ¿Cuándo empezaba a subir la renta, una, eso se mudaba? EUGENIA: mhm, sí JOSÉ: Y entonces ¿los demás lo seguían? EUGENIA: Pues los demás lo seguían porque, porque… JOSÉ: Porque estaba subiendo la renta. EUGENIA: Porque estaba subiendo la renta. JOSÉ: ______________________ una myra no mucho 1:23:57 EUGENIA: Era todo. La renta subiera a todo. JOSÉ: ¿Por qué subiera la renta? EUGENIA: Porque tienen que pagar más. �JOSÉ: ¿Por qué tienen que pagar más? EUGENIA: porque le subían. Tiene que pagar tanto. Y entonces si no, tiene que irte. 1:24:15 JOSÉ: Pero eso para, ¿no era para limpiar el barrio? EUGENIA: Ahora yo no sé. JOSÉ: Para limpiar el barrio, ¿no? 1:24:24 EUGENIA: Uh huh. Así que yo no sé. No yo recuerdo ya. JOSÉ: ¿Pero que tú sabes que estaba subiendo la renta y entonces…? EUGENIA: Sí, se conseguía más barato en otros sitios y en el hall… más cómodo. Cuando unos se cambiaron para allá. Además, los puertorriqueños buscaban uno a los otros para estar juntos. Eso era la, lo que buscaban. JOSÉ: Pero ¿unos no sienten mal que tienen que dejarlo lo que tenían, el barrio que tenía? EUGENIA: No se sienten nada. JOSÉ: ¿No se sienten nada? _________ 1:25:03 EUGENIA: No. JOSÉ: ¿Porque no tenía conexión al barrio? ¿Se notaba conectado a Chicago? ¿Estaba conectado a Puerto Rico? ¿O como era? EUGENIA: ______ todo eso. ________ conectado a Puerto Rico. JOSÉ: ¿Conectados unos mismo? EUGENIA: mhm JOSÉ: ¿A los puertorriqueños de allí? EUGENIA: mhm JOSÉ: ¿So era como una planeta nueva para los puertorriqueños. 1:25:45 EUGENIA: Pues claro. Pues era como… suponen esto… tú tienes una casa… y tú tienes la silla. Entonces yo voy y me mudó por este apartamento, un cuarto o que sea. Entonces yo tengo gente que conozco y la casa vacía, pues yo digo, yo vivo, hay apartamentos más sencillos. La gente se iba. Y hiciera menos dinero de lo que ellos pagaban a donde estaba. ______ se iba. JOSÉ: ___________________ más barato. EUGENIA: Pues claro. JOSÉ: ¿Más barato entonces? EUGENIA: Claro que sí. Entonces los puertorriqueños no buscaban a esta manera. 1:26:27 JOSÉ: Pues ¿tú crees que no les afectaba a los niños que tienen que mudar tanto? ¿En la cuela? �EUGENIA: Uno no piensa eso. Uno lo que piensa este salir de este lugar porque no le gusta uno a otro. Uno no piensa, no piensa esto que se puede afectar a los niños y nada. Quieren mudarse. JOSÉ: ¿Y la mayor parte no le gusta porque subieron la renta? EUGENIA: Porque sube la renta. JOSÉ: ¿No era por la cucaracha ni nada eso? 1:27:02 EUGENIA: Quizás esto también. (ríen) JOSÉ: Porque no había mucho cucaracha también, ¿no? EUGENIA: No, donde yo vivía _____ según uno tenga un apartamento limpio o algo. Había tanto cucaracha. Había porque eso era donde queda. Y si uno le daba alimiento _________ JOSÉ: So no era, ¿so lo mudamos no por la cucaracha ni nada eso? EUGENIA: No, mudamos porque buscábamos el ambiente mejor. JOSÉ: Yo recuerdo que en el piso de los Dickens que el ambiente era bueno. Estaba mejor ambiente que yo me recuerdo. ¿Y mudamos allí porque sería? EUGENIA: No recuerdo tampoco yo. JOSÉ: ¿Y la cuadra completa de los puertorriqueños? ¿Entre la Dickens y la Webster en la biso? ¿Eso era los puertorriqueños por dos lados de la calle? EUGENIA: mhm JOSÉ: ¿Ya era no se venían ningún puertorriqueño allí? EUGENIA: No. JOSÉ: ¿No se ve? EUGENIA: Yo no sé. JOSÉ: Bueno estaba frente de _______ San Miguel. ¿Te recuerdas? ¿En vez de San Miguel y no había puertorriqueño? ___ el hall ______apartamiento, ¿no? EUGENIA: No sé. JOSÉ: Okay. No quiero poner palabras en la boca. Okay. Vamos a _____. � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e0afadde1ca08112672d4481c49583dc.mp4 10b704743ae0d0378d3fd66b6c7f8e19 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Eugenia Rodríguez vídeo entrevista y biografía, entrevista 1 Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puertorriqueños--Relatos personales Idioma español--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Puertorriqueños--Illinois--Chicago--Vida social y costumbres Renovación urbana--Illinois--Chicago Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Rodriguez_Eugenia_1 Title A name given to the resource Eugenia Rodríguez video interview and biography, interview 1 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rodríguez, Eugenia Description An account of the resource Eugenia Rodríguez is the mother of José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez. She is the youngest of 13 children and was born in San Lorenzo, Puerto Rico to Juan Rodríguez and Victoria Flores. They then moved to the Morena section of the barrio of San Salvador, Caguas, Puerto Rico. When she was just a child her mother became sick and so Ms. Rodríguez was sent to be raised by her older sister, Toribia. But Toribia also had her own family to raise, so Ms. Rodríguez’s father decided to send her to live in a Catholic orphanage until she was 15-years-old. She never attended formal school but did learn how to read and write. When Ms. Rodríguez left the orphanage, she returned to live with Toribia. There she met Antonio Jiménez, the younger brother of Toribia’s husband, who would become her husband. In 1949, Ms. Rodríguez traveled to New York and then to Boston. In early 1951 the family moved to La Clark in Chicago. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puerto Ricans--Personal narratives Spanish language--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Puerto Ricans--Illinois--Chicago--Social life and customs Urban renewal--Illinois--Chicago Language A language of the resource spa Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-06-04 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b8769865b5b3bcd7c159afd88c4f312d.pdf a5ff3777911b8f5afdd815ecfd3d271f PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Eugenia Rodriguez Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 5/30/2012 Biography and Description Eugenia Rodríguez is the mother of José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez. She is the youngest of 13 children and was born in San Lorenzo, Puerto Rico to Juan Rodríguez and Victoria Flores. They then moved to the Morena section of the barrio of San Salvador, Caguas, Puerto Rico. When she was just a child her mother became sick and so Ms. Rodríguez sent to be raised by her older sister, Toribia. But Toribia also had her own family to raise, so Ms. Rodríguez’s father decided to send her to live in a Catholic orphanage until she was 15-years-old. She never attended formal school but did learn how to read and write. The orphanage provided some discipline but she mostly did cleaning and other mundane work and was offered few opportunities to study. When Ms. Rodríguez left the orphanage, she returned to live with Toribia. There she met Antonio Jiménez, the younger brother of Toribia’s husband, who would become her husband. Mr. Jiménez was working as a hired field hand, farming the land for a portion of the yield. He soon proposed. They were married at the only church in the area at that time, and went to live in a one room, simple home in San Salvador.In many ways their life mirrored that of other poor families in the Puerto Rican countryside during the mid-1940s. Ms. Rodríguez helped with the chickens and the few cows and washed clothes on the rocks of the quebra. Mr. Jiménez became a seasonal tomatero, or tomato picker, for Andy Boy Farms in Minot, Massachusetts. After the death of their first daughter at just one year of age, Mr. Jiménez worked especially hard to bring Ms. Rodríguez to join him in the United States. In 1949, �Ms. Rodríguez traveled to New York then boarded a Greyhound bus bound for Boston. Her daughter, Juana (Jenny), was born there. In early 1951 the family moved to La Clark in Chicago to be closer to the rest of Mr. Jiménez’s family who were already living there. At the migrant camp in Massachusetts, Doña Genia, as she was called, washed and ironed clothes for a profit. In Chicago things were not much different. She cooked and sold food to help her husband with the bills. Like many women, she further supplemented their income by setting up a lotería, or Spanish bingo games, in her home. It was not long after they arrived in Chicago that Ms. Rodríguez, like scores of other Puerto Rican families who occupied the homes in the prime real estate areas close to the downtown and the lake, received a notice that she would have to leave her home. They moved to Lincoln Park. Ms. Rodríguez began holding catechism classes in the living room of her home and joined the Caballeros de an Juan and the Damas de María in setting up Spanish masses and other services for the Catholic church. In later years, Ms. Rodríguez and Mr. Jiménez moved to Wicker Park, then to Aurora, Illinois, before finally returning to Puerto Rico where Mr. Jiménez built his dream home. He died just three months later. � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e83503c89a17357c0bf06674b45bb2b4.mp4 a75c1df8bb96d9416589652be14ae4f4 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Eugenia Rodríguez vídeo entrevista y biografía, entrevista 2 Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puertorriqueños--Relatos personales Idioma español--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Puertorriqueños--Illinois--Chicago--Vida social y costumbres Renovación urbana--Illinois--Chicago Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Rodriguez_Eugenia_2 Title A name given to the resource Eugenia Rodríguez video interview and biography, interview 2 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rodríguez, Eugenia Description An account of the resource Eugenia Rodríguez is the mother of José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez. She is the youngest of 13 children and was born in San Lorenzo, Puerto Rico to Juan Rodríguez and Victoria Flores. They then moved to the Morena section of the barrio of San Salvador, Caguas, Puerto Rico. When she was just a child her mother became sick and so Ms. Rodríguez was sent to be raised by her older sister, Toribia. But Toribia also had her own family to raise, so Ms. Rodríguez’s father decided to send her to live in a Catholic orphanage until she was 15-years-old. She never attended formal school but did learn how to read and write. When Ms. Rodríguez left the orphanage, she returned to live with Toribia. There she met Antonio Jiménez, the younger brother of Toribia’s husband, who would become her husband. In 1949, Ms. Rodríguez traveled to New York and then to Boston. In early 1951 the family moved to La Clark in Chicago. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puerto Ricans--Personal narratives Spanish language--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Puerto Ricans--Illinois--Chicago--Social life and customs Urban renewal--Illinois--Chicago Language A language of the resource spa Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-05-30 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e2f8bbc4677a9b94267d78201f0ee2c1.pdf 84dff72082f095ab240bc41570784a86 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Eugenia Rodriguez Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 6/24/2012 Biography and Description Eugenia Rodríguez is the mother of José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez. She is the youngest of 13 children and was born in San Lorenzo, Puerto Rico to Juan Rodríguez and Victoria Flores. They then moved to the Morena section of the barrio of San Salvador, Caguas, Puerto Rico. When she was just a child her mother became sick and so Ms. Rodríguez sent to be raised by her older sister, Toribia. But Toribia also had her own family to raise, so Ms. Rodríguez’s father decided to send her to live in a Catholic orphanage until she was 15-years-old. She never attended formal school but did learn how to read and write. The orphanage provided some discipline but she mostly did cleaning and other mundane work and was offered few opportunities to study. When Ms. Rodríguez left the orphanage, she returned to live with Toribia. There she met Antonio Jiménez, the younger brother of Toribia’s husband, who would become her husband. Mr. Jiménez was working as a hired field hand, farming the land for a portion of the yield. He soon proposed. They were married at the only church in the area at that time, and went to live in a one room, simple home in San Salvador.In many ways their life mirrored that of other poor families in the Puerto Rican countryside during the mid-1940s. Ms. Rodríguez helped with the chickens and the few cows and washed clothes on the rocks of the quebra. Mr. Jiménez became a seasonal tomatero, or tomato picker, for Andy Boy Farms in Minot, Massachusetts. After the death of their first daughter at just one year of age, Mr. Jiménez worked especially hard to bring Ms. Rodríguez to join him in the United States. In 1949, �Ms. Rodríguez traveled to New York then boarded a Greyhound bus bound for Boston. Her daughter, Juana (Jenny), was born there. In early 1951 the family moved to La Clark in Chicago to be closer to the rest of Mr. Jiménez’s family who were already living there. At the migrant camp in Massachusetts, Doña Genia, as she was called, washed and ironed clothes for a profit. In Chicago things were not much different. She cooked and sold food to help her husband with the bills. Like many women, she further supplemented their income by setting up a lotería, or Spanish bingo games, in her home. It was not long after they arrived in Chicago that Ms. Rodríguez, like scores of other Puerto Rican families who occupied the homes in the prime real estate areas close to the downtown and the lake, received a notice that she would have to leave her home. They moved to Lincoln Park. Ms. Rodríguez began holding catechism classes in the living room of her home and joined the Caballeros de an Juan and the Damas de María in setting up Spanish masses and other services for the Catholic church. In later years, Ms. Rodríguez and Mr. Jiménez moved to Wicker Park, then to Aurora, Illinois, before finally returning to Puerto Rico where Mr. Jiménez built his dream home. He died just three months later. � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5203f6732b3a01f8dc0573f66b6dfae2.mp4 f98a1d578ea9b50f17cdaaa351bff6c5 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Eugenia Rodríguez vídeo entrevista y biografía, entrevista 3 Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puertorriqueños--Relatos personales Idioma español--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Puertorriqueños--Illinois--Chicago--Vida social y costumbres Renovación urbana--Illinois--Chicago Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Rodriguez_Eugenia_3 Title A name given to the resource Eugenia Rodríguez video interview and biography, interview 3 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rodríguez, Eugenia Description An account of the resource Eugenia Rodríguez is the mother of José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez. She is the youngest of 13 children and was born in San Lorenzo, Puerto Rico to Juan Rodríguez and Victoria Flores. They then moved to the Morena section of the barrio of San Salvador, Caguas, Puerto Rico. When she was just a child her mother became sick and so Ms. Rodríguez was sent to be raised by her older sister, Toribia. But Toribia also had her own family to raise, so Ms. Rodríguez’s father decided to send her to live in a Catholic orphanage until she was 15-years-old. She never attended formal school but did learn how to read and write. When Ms. Rodríguez left the orphanage, she returned to live with Toribia. There she met Antonio Jiménez, the younger brother of Toribia’s husband, who would become her husband. In 1949, Ms. Rodríguez traveled to New York and then to Boston. In early 1951 the family moved to La Clark in Chicago. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puerto Ricans--Personal narratives Spanish language--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Puerto Ricans--Illinois--Chicago--Social life and customs Urban renewal--Illinois--Chicago Language A language of the resource spa Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-06-24 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/26cca9fb5d943a205fe567fde895677f.pdf 55ed627c6306e61d87538a8d55f22b41 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Eugenia Rodríguez Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 5/10/2012 Biography and Description Eugenia Rodríguez is the mother of José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez. She is the youngest of 13 children and was born in San Lorenzo, Puerto Rico to Juan Rodríguez and Victoria Flores. They then moved to the Morena section of the barrio of San Salvador, Caguas, Puerto Rico. When she was just a child her mother became sick and so Ms. Rodríguez sent to be raised by her older sister, Toribia. But Toribia also had her own family to raise, so Ms. Rodríguez’s father decided to send her to live in a Catholic orphanage until she was 15-years-old. She never attended formal school but did learn how to read and write. The orphanage provided some discipline but she mostly did cleaning and other mundane work and was offered few opportunities to study. When Ms. Rodríguez left the orphanage, she returned to live with Toribia. There she met Antonio Jiménez, the younger brother of Toribia’s husband, who would become her husband. Mr. Jiménez was working as a hired field hand, farming the land for a portion of the yield. He soon proposed. They were married at the only church in the area at that time, and went to live in a one room, simple home in San Salvador.In many ways their life mirrored that of other poor families in the Puerto Rican countryside during the mid-1940s. Ms. Rodríguez helped with the chickens and the few cows and washed clothes on the rocks of the quebra. Mr. Jiménez became a seasonal tomatero, or tomato picker, for Andy Boy Farms in Minot, Massachusetts. After the death of their first daughter at just one year of age, Mr. Jiménez worked especially hard to bring Ms. Rodríguez to join him in the United States. In 1949, �Ms. Rodríguez traveled to New York then boarded a Greyhound bus bound for Boston. Her daughter, Juana (Jenny), was born there. In early 1951 the family moved to La Clark in Chicago to be closer to the rest of Mr. Jiménez’s family who were already living there. At the migrant camp in Massachusetts, Doña Genia, as she was called, washed and ironed clothes for a profit. In Chicago things were not much different. She cooked and sold food to help her husband with the bills. Like many women, she further supplemented their income by setting up a lotería, or Spanish bingo games, in her home. It was not long after they arrived in Chicago that Ms. Rodríguez, like scores of other Puerto Rican families who occupied the homes in the prime real estate areas close to the downtown and the lake, received a notice that she would have to leave her home. They moved to Lincoln Park. Ms. Rodríguez began holding catechism classes in the living room of her home and joined the Caballeros de an Juan and the Damas de María in setting up Spanish masses and other services for the Catholic church. In later years, Ms. Rodríguez and Mr. Jiménez moved to Wicker Park, then to Aurora, Illinois, before finally returning to Puerto Rico where Mr. Jiménez built his dream home. He died just three months later. � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/19c19278d20b4d7ad550210156e1eff1.mp4 c2a04d23027a05bf315e481b4ad96e93 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Eugenia Rodríguez vídeo entrevista y biografía, entrevista 4 Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puertorriqueños--Relatos personales Idioma español--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Puertorriqueños--Illinois--Chicago--Vida social y costumbres Renovación urbana--Illinois--Chicago Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Rodriguez_Eugenia_4 Title A name given to the resource Eugenia Rodríguez video interview and biography, interview 4 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rodríguez, Eugenia Description An account of the resource Eugenia Rodríguez is the mother of José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez. She is the youngest of 13 children and was born in San Lorenzo, Puerto Rico to Juan Rodríguez and Victoria Flores. They then moved to the Morena section of the barrio of San Salvador, Caguas, Puerto Rico. When she was just a child her mother became sick and so Ms. Rodríguez was sent to be raised by her older sister, Toribia. But Toribia also had her own family to raise, so her father decided to send her to live in a Catholic orphanage until she was 15-years-old. She never attended formal school but did learn how to read and write. When Ms. Rodríguez left the orphanage, she returned to live with Toribia. There she met Antonio Jiménez, the younger brother of Toribia’s husband, who would become her husband. In 1949, Ms. Rodríguez traveled to New York and then to Boston. In early 1951 the family moved to La Clark in Chicago. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puerto Ricans--Personal narratives Spanish language--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Puerto Ricans--Illinois--Chicago--Social life and customs Urban renewal--Illinois--Chicago Language A language of the resource spa Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-05-10 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/0125a847a00ab6d74a31dcc382cf6b8f.pdf bd1861b8d3551aecdd15d6043723187f PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Juan Rodríguez Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 6/21/2012 Biography and Description Juan Rodríguez is an excellent organizer and community leader. He was a member and leader of the Jovenes Nobles social club in San Salvador, Puerto Rico, where he was born and raised. Mr. Rodríguez recalls how they grew from just some initial conversations and worked together to raise funds to open and a weight-lifting and social club for barrio youth. It was a wonderful experience he says, learning via hard knocks to go door-to-door. The Jovenes would also travel to other parts of Puerto Rico, going to parties, dances, and other events. Mr. Rodríguez explains that for many years, many people used the donated clubhouse and the weight lifting equipment, which they supported through fundraisers and membership dues. Mr. Rodríguez later followed other family members to Aurora, Illinois where he worked for many years at the Caterpillar Plant on Montgomery Road. There he used his acquired organizing skills to help Don Teo Arroyo, also of San Salvador, to recruit local business people to organize the annual dinner/dance and the coronation of a queen for the first Puerto Rican parades held in Aurora. He also worked for several mayors and other elected officials, using the parade as leverage to get needed programs to benefit the Puerto Rican community there. Mr. Rodríguez says that he never had a problem convincing politicians of this need because the Puerto Rican community controlled the votes. Later, Mr. Rodríguez heard about the organizing work of the Young Lords in Chicago’s Lincoln Park. By that time his relatives from the Jiménez family had also come to Aurora, moving from Lincoln �Park and Wicker Park, Chicago. They moved because “the rents were too high,” as Mr. Rodríguez recalls. In Aurora, the Jiménez family was able to rent a large home which they needed since it was always filled with relatives and friends. Mr. Rodríguez and his brother Ramón would visit their home regularly, and assisted with organizing the parades. � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/0e798749c1c7155932f06736c8b28de6.mp4 299beee8f2809a7ac60d677d1c237d38 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Juan Rodríguez vídeo entrevista y biografía Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puertorriqueños--Relatos personales Idioma español--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Chicago (Ill.)--Política y gobierno--1951- Puertorriqueños--Illinois--Chicago--Vida social y costumbres Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Rodriguez_Juan Title A name given to the resource Juan Rodríguez video interview and biography Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rodríguez, Juan Description An account of the resource Juan Rodríguez was a member and leader of the Jovenes Nobles social club in San Salvador, Puerto Rico, where he was born and raised. Mr. Rodríguez later followed other family members to Aurora, Illinois where he worked for many years at the Caterpillar Plant on Montgomery Road. Later, Mr. Rodríguez heard about the organizing work of the Young Lords in Chicago’s Lincoln Park. By that time his relatives from the Jiménez family had also come to Aurora, moving from Lincoln Park and Wicker Park. Mr. Rodríguez and his brother Ramón would visit their home regularly, and assisted with organizing the parades. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puerto Ricans--Personal narratives Spanish language--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Chicago (Ill.)--Politics and government--1951- Puerto Ricans--Illinois--Chicago--Social life and customs Language A language of the resource spa Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-06-21 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/63f5d217662a92cb662f62b00c68c577.pdf d5e9828b9896510aa390dc9887577df6 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Ramon Rodriguez Interviewers: Jose “Cha Cha” Jimenez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 6/23/2012 Biography and Description Ramón Rodríguez is a semi-retired school teacher who lives in the Lao Frío section of San Salvador, overlooking the home of his father Dimas Rodríguez Flores. He first met his cousin, José “Cha- Cha” Jiménez in 1963 when Mr. Jiménez was forcibly deported to Puerto Rico. Mr. Jiménez, who was 14years-old at that time, pleaded with his parents to send him to Sheraton, a juvenile prison where he would have remained until the age of 21, instead of being sent to Puerto Rico where he was born but had no understanding of life there. In Puerto Rico, Mr. Rodríguez and his older brother Juan became close to Mr. Jiménez. They also tried to dissuade Mr. Jiménez from forming a branch of the Young Lords in Puerto Rico because Mr. Rodríguez and his brothers were already leaders and did not want anything to do with a Chicago type gang in the barrio of San Salvador. Mr. Rodríguez recalls what San Salvador was like in those days. This was a stable area and family influence and networks were strong. Drugs did not start to enter -- not even in rural areas of Puerto Rico – until much later. The only thing that closely resembled a gang was the Titeres de La Plaza. These young men sat on the many boulders near the banana leaves, across from the store of Don Félix García, and got into petty mischief. Ultimately Mr. Rodríguez and others compromised and agree to call their group, Jovenes Nobles. Of course Mr. Jiménez remained a Titere because that bunch included many other cousins, and they were located in La Plaza, closer to where he was living with his grandparents, Tino and Don Goyo. The Jovenes Nobles set up a �recreation clubhouse for their young members. They began fundraising and someone donated a baby pig to raffle. The members traveled from house-to-house and hilltop-to-hilltop in the tropical sun to sell the tickets. On the day of the raffle, Mr. Rodríguez’s mother won the ticket. The Jovenes Nobles had to endure the gossip, but they kept the money and they ate the pig.Mr. Rodríguez also describes his move from San Salvador to Aurora, Illinois. In this interview, he bravely talks about the brief substance abuse problem he battled and the ways he hopes young people today might learn from his experiences. Today he once again lives in San Salvador. He remains a strong family person and is a well-respected leader. � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/aae856fffa8a07b8fa5897177e1603b0.mp4 1776b48f96c2c86d0d6571524066af58 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Ramón Rodriguez vídeo entrevista y biografía Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Idioma español--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Puertorriqueños--Vida social y costumbres Juventud--Puerto Rico Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Rodriguez_Ramon Title A name given to the resource Ramón Rodriguez video interview and biography Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rodriguez, Ramón Description An account of the resource Ramón Rodríguez is a semi-retired school teacher who lives in the Lao Frío section of San Salvador, overlooking the home of his father Dimas Rodríguez Flores. He first met his cousin, José “Cha- Cha” Jiménez in 1963 when Mr. Jiménez was forcibly deported to Puerto Rico. Mr. Jiménez, who was 14- years-old at that time, pleaded with his parents to send him to Sheraton, a juvenile prison where he would have remained until the age of 21, instead of being sent to Puerto Rico where he was born but had no understanding of life there. In Puerto Rico, Mr. Rodríguez and his older brother Juan became close to Mr. Jiménez. They also tried to dissuade Mr. Jiménez from forming a branch of the Young Lords in Puerto Rico because Mr. Rodríguez and his brothers were already leaders and did not want anything to do with a Chicago type gang in the barrio of San Salvador. Mr. Rodríguez recalls what San Salvador was like in those days. This was a stable area and family influence and networks were strong. Drugs did not start to enter -- not even in rural areas of Puerto Rico – until much later. The only thing that closely resembled a gang was the Titeres de La Plaza. These young men sat on the many boulders near the banana leaves, across from the store of Don Félix García, and got into petty mischief. Ultimately Mr. Rodríguez and others compromised and agree to call their group, Jovenes Nobles. Of course Mr. Jiménez remained a Titere because that bunch included many other cousins, and they were located in La Plaza, closer to where he was living with his grandparents, Tino and Don Goyo. The Jovenes Nobles set up a recreation clubhouse for their young members. They began fundraising and someone donated a baby pig to raffle. The members traveled from house-to-house and hilltop-to-hilltop in the tropical sun to sell the tickets. On the day of the raffle, Mr. Rodríguez’s mother won the ticket. The Jovenes Nobles had to endure the gossip, but they kept the money and they ate the pig.Mr. Rodríguez also describes his move from San Salvador to Aurora, Illinois. In this interview, he bravely talks about the brief substance abuse problem he battled and the ways he hopes young people today might learn from his experiences. Today he once again lives in San Salvador. He remains a strong family person and is a well-respected leader. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puerto Ricans--Personal narratives Spanish language--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Puerto Ricans--Social life and customs Youth--Puerto Rico Language A language of the resource spa Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-06-23 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/0b310ba23a098d97783c4112a49cc19e.pdf 782c4c3ef5938949032674a6c5406c1d PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Román Rodríguez Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 5/12/2012 Biography and Description Román Rodríguez served in the U.S. army during World War II and moved to Chicago’s La Clark neighborhood in 1953. For many years, his wife, Clautilde Jiménez, taught in the Chicago public school system. They also lived in Lincoln Park and were both active members in the Damas de María and Caballeros de San Juan of Council Number Three. A powerful and eloquent orator, Mr. Rodríguez has been a frequent speaker at Caballeros de San Juan functions across a variety of parishes. He also became a deacon and participated in the mass at St. Silvesters in Humbolt Park/Logan Square, where he helped to solidify the growing community of Puerto Ricans who were being forced out of Lincoln Park.In his oral history, Mr. Rodríguez reflects on the changes he has seen over the years in Chicago and the displacement of Puerto Rican families from Lincoln Park. He expresses his inability to understand why Puerto Ricans were experiencing discrimination especially after they had served in the U.S. military and given their lives for United States. He describes in rich detail, a community of hard working and religious people, dedicated to their families and their faith. In Puerto Rico in the 1940s, Mr. Rodríguez would entertain his siblings by improvising jibaro music after working a hard day in the fields. Like other Puerto Rican pioneers in Chicago, he brought his love of music with him to the city and continued this tradition there. � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3d687c00e29080f03f4b376faa9c732f.mp4 0c08c94a94bc2d0f5709ab8ec5381fb8 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Román Rodríguez vídeo entrevista y biografía Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Narrativas personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Puertorriqueños--Illinois--Chicago--Vida social y costumbres Renovación urbana--Illinois--Chicago Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Rodriguez_Roman Title A name given to the resource Román Rodríguez inerview and biography Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rodríguez, Román Description An account of the resource Román Rodríguez served in the U.S. army during World War II and moved to Chicago’s La Clark neighborhood in 1953. For many years, his wife, Clautilde Jiménez, taught in the Chicago public school system. They also lived in Lincoln Park and were both active members in the Damas de María and Caballeros de San Juan of Council Number Three. A powerful and eloquent orator, Mr. Rodríguez has been a frequent speaker at Caballeros de San Juan functions across a variety of parishes. He also became a deacon and participated in the mass at St. Silvesters in Humbolt Park/Logan Square, where he helped to solidify the growing community of Puerto Ricans who were being forced out of Lincoln Park. In his oral history, Mr. Rodríguez reflects on the changes he has seen over the years in Chicago and the displacement of Puerto Rican families from Lincoln Park. He expresses his inability to understand why Puerto Ricans were experiencing discrimination especially after they had served in the U.S. military and given their lives for United States. He describes in rich detail, a community of hard working and religious people, dedicated to their families and their faith. In Puerto Rico in the 1940s, Mr. Rodríguez would entertain his siblings by improvising jibaro music after working a hard day in the fields. Like other Puerto Rican pioneers in Chicago, he brought his love of music with him to the city and continued this tradition there. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puerto Ricans--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Puerto Ricans--Illinois--Chicago--Social life and customs Urban renewal--Illinois--Chicago Language A language of the resource spa Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-05-12 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/bd09d1d2972c0f93f39e7f15b7e3948d.jpg ac4c291bf0894e98d61bb3cf2a85dd39 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Decorated Publishers' Bindings Subject The topic of the resource Book covers Covers (Illustration) Graphic arts Publishers and publishing Pictorial bindings Description An account of the resource From the early 1870s to roughly 1930, many publishers issued their commercial book covers with a remarkable variety of graphic designs and illustrations. This sixty-year period saw many artists and designers contributing to this art form. While some can be identified from their style or initials, others remain unknown. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Seidman Rare Books Collection Michigan Novels Collection Regional Historical Collection Lincoln and the Civil War Collection Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-08-30 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>, <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-01 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Source Seidman Rare Books. PR5122 .W5 1895 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-01_Bindings0212 Title A name given to the resource When Valmond Came to Pontiac Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rogers, Bruce (Designer) Description An account of the resource Binding of When Valmond Came to Pontiac, by Gilbert Parker, published by Stone and Kimball, 1895. Subject The topic of the resource Book covers Covers (Illustration) Graphic arts Publishers and publishing Pictorial bindings Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1895 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9cf5f2edc299541ca759038129161a01.mp4 fbb1468e68df0fce062591572a6fb79e https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/96287e031721aaccd937168fcae183ba.pdf c93c11b992228c89959b353c09b9e5ea PDF Text Text William James College Interviews GV016-16 Interviewer: Barbara Roos Interviewee: Linda Rogers Date: 1984 [Rogers] I only went there because of the Women's Studies program and a friend of mine was going there. And so, I really knew nothing about William James, whatsoever, until I got there and got in my first class. [Barbara] And then what did you find out? [Inaudible] [Rogers] Well, the first thing I realized is that even though… because I was in the class, it was Social Economics with Berry Castro, and I felt stupid. I felt like I didn't say anything and just sat there, and all these older people around, and I was the youngest person in the class, obviously. But my first realization was that I am important, and I have an opinion, and I have an eighteen-year-old’s opinion, and that is important to the class. Just as the forty-year-old over there, her opinion is just as valid as mine. And all the different perspectives, the age, the different ages was scary at first, but it was something I had to go through and was great for my self-esteem. I realized that I'm important and I have something to say. And people would listen and integrate it. That was probably my first whiff of William James. And then immediately after that was the no grade. And I didn't know what to think of that when I first got there, but then I sort of… it changed me. I realize that I was doing my education for myself and no one else. You know I had to be truthful with myself because credit meant only, you know, an understanding between myself and a professor and it didn't project anything to my parents, or my friends, or my colleagues. It just said credit and I knew what that meant. So, that just sort of helped me to get a grip on my whole education, basically. And that whatever I was going to do, it depended on me, basically, to get what I wanted out of it. And I that was a radical change from high school, very radical. Didn't improve my studentship, actually. [Barbara] Then what happened? So, there you are at the College of Liberal Studies and you get a sense of the [Inaudible] education and it seems to be working. Then what happened? [Rogers] Then I got a little bit more courageous. Started taking… I felt a little bit more confident when I took on a new professor. And I started meeting the different professors and realizing that I liked everything about the school. I liked the people, liked my professors; I really was enjoying college and I'd been really apprehensive about it. Then I realized that my professors were my equals. That they were not something godly or so far above me that I had to think lesser of �myself – that came soon after. You know just sort of that repertoire that you… I had with my professors. It was just another great development. [Rogers] I've been interested in WIB ever since I had been a freshman because I knew about it when the paper had come out – it was a real good issue. And I saw the women in the skylight room folding them, and stapling them, and putting the addresses on and I'm like: "I wonder how they got into that and how they all knew each other." And at the time I was still feeling like a girl and I hadn't, you know, totally realized that I was a woman, and I probably wasn't. So, I was anxious about… I wanted to dive into it and get involved and be a part of that, but I didn't recognize my womanhood yet, so I was a little shy about doing that. And finally, I got to know some of the women that were involved in it and they were leaving and they're like: "Linda you have to do it, you have to carry on because everyone else is gone." And so here I was in charge of the whole thing and I had no idea what I was doing. But by that time, I knew I was a woman… I had a lot more faith in myself and issues at hand. I was more up on the women's issues that needed to be focused on in the paper. So, yeah, WIB was a big part of my sort of extracurricular but at the same time it had everything to do with what I was learning in classes. [Barbara] Did you find any time conflict between the structure of James and Women's Issues? Was it a difference in support structure; was it policy structure? [Rogers] Well, I think it was very supportive at William James. It was supportive. The way we were looked upon at WIB, was sort of, from the people that were not directly involved with James, we were sort of looked at the same way as some… the perspective was a little bit more radical or whatever. I don't mean to use that word, but different and alternative and so I think in the same way that WIB was threatening, James was the same sort of threatening feeling that people got. And I think that's probably why I was brought or dove into the WIB stuff immediately after James was gone because it filled that gap. [Barbara] Okay, tell me how you lived through the changes through your organization. What happened in your organization? [Rogers] I lost a lot of contact with – probably was my own fault – with professors. I mean, it was still students around and I knew that I didn't need four walls to keep that comradery and that community feeling. You know, I could still see someone and know that feeling was there, and the mutual understandings were there. But at that point I withdrew from my professors and I couldn't really do it from my fellow students - because they're my friends – but mostly the profs. And so, there was a good year – well maybe not a year, but a couple of semesters – where I didn't drop in and visit. I just sort of felt like, I don't know, there was some static there. Probably resentfulness at myself and them – for everybody – for just letting it �happen. [Rogers] And I finally did go talk to some, you know, some favorites or close ones that I've become very good friends with. "How do we do this? How do we get through?" And not like I wanted an answer but "What are you doing?" Just, you know, little support… a mini support group. Yeah, I kept going and it was a good opportunity for me to, at that point, go out into the outer parts of Grand Valley and meet new professors and new students. [Barbara] Did you feel any static going back into a conventional classroom? [Rogers] At first – yes. There were a couple of teachers that I liked at my first meeting with them. But the other way, their grading system and how they… I went up to one professor and I went to his office and said: "What is a grading system? What do you… how do you grade? How do you know what grades are? Somebody's got to tell me because it's been a couple years since." And I never really knew in junior high what it meant anyway. So, he explained it to me, and I didn't agree with it. And that was all I could do is just not agree. And I had to just fall back on what I learned at the beginning when I went to James… was that I know what I've learned and that's what's important and if he doesn't think the same thing and if he decides to give me such and such a grade then that's fine, but I still have to be strong and know that what I did was worthwhile. [Barbara] Do you think that there was something we should have done that we didn't do that would have [Inaudible]? By “we” I mean the faculty or… you know. [Rogers] Like after the closing…? [Barbara] No. [Rogers] Beforehand? [Barbara] How did they screw up that they managed to close us? [Rogers] That's a big one. I know the time that there were students that we were trying to get student representation on a larger scale and more official level, then we could of all gone in there [Inaudible] said no. But we… in some way, I knew that wasn't going to work. And I just felt like it was being sat on by this big thing and I couldn't push it up, whether I had all my friends around me helping me or not. There wasn't a whole lot I could do about it and that is not a good attitude. That was probably why I feel so bad about the whole thing is because no one really tried even though, you know… I sort of just knew before I even tried that my trying wasn't going to work. But I don't know that though. I can't know that. �[Barbara] It’s a bad lesson, isn't it? [Rogers] Yeah, yeah, yeah. [Barbara] That's how I feel about it. It's a bad lesson. [Rogers] And… I don't know. I don't know. [Barbara] John ask her something. [John] Okay. Well [Inaudible], if William James was considered an experiment, do you think that it failed in its mission? [Rogers] No. [John] Do you think the whole experience has or what you experienced at the end? [Rogers] I knew that the school itself wasn't a failure and that as an experiment it was not… that the potential for it to just go on and on. I could have… I mean, if there was, you know, no outside forces demanding its end and eating it up with their other interests like athletics or whatever – that was another issue. But the school itself was a successful experiment. [John] Could you characterize the kind of student that was supporting James and also perhaps how that characterization changed as it started to reorganize and then compare that to the kind of student who was in other parts of the college? [Rogers] Yeah. [John] You said earlier that some of the qualities aren't there. [Rogers] Yeah. Well, I don't know if it was a result. I think it's… see I was not drawn to James because I knew of it. And probably there were many like myself but I think in general they were open-minded and willing to listen to all those different points of view. And that was something I learned at William James, you know, that was a quality and a philosophy that was necessary to survive there and to get the best of it that you could. And I know that there's a lot of open-minded people in the world and you don't necessarily have to be a James student to know what that's like, but that was one quality that I noticed in everyone that went to James. And it was less that the farther and further you got away from it, you just couldn't trust for that to be there. [Rogers] You know it might be there and it may not be there, but you couldn't count on it being there. And if you were to go into a class after the closing of James… I went �into a class and I didn't know anyone, and I didn't know the professor and I just had to sit down and carry on. It wasn't a whole lot different. It was always a challenge, you know, at James and just going out into the new world of Grand Valley. And I guess that was expected of you eventually at James; for you to integrate into Grand Valley. And so that was going to be a step anyway, whether the school closed or not. So, I didn't go out there with probably… I could've gone out there with a lot more confidence if I had James standing behind me. But with it closed I just had to carry on. It took a lot of strength and took a lot of courage to just continue being what you were and what you learned and trying to use the James philosophies in the class and use as many as you could in as many ways that you could. [John] William James College was very well recognized in the method of it using internships and placements for training. You were in Social Relations and got an internship and a job that would help you. Can you tell something about that? It probably worked well for you. [Rogers] It worked well. It was ideal. I had this… the way, ideally, is it could work that you got an internship, and it could possibly turn into a job, and it did for myself when I started a Domestic Crisis Center. And it was ideal also because probably half the staff at the Domestic Crisis Center was William James already. And so, I felt – even at my job – I felt a connectedness with James. And after it closed, you know, people were still around. It was real nice and it was absolutely necessary. And the whole theory behind going from school into the actual job placement while you're still in school, it just rounded me out like that. It just rounded me… it's really nice. [John] Okay, here's the closer – it’s what we ask everybody. Think about this a second and answer: What was the essence of William James College? [Barbara] In a sentence or two. [Rogers] The essence… the first thing that comes to my mind is friendship. I felt loved. I wasn't just at a school that was, you know, we were all learning, going into premed or something like that. We all knew each other, we all respected each other, but there was love. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource William James College Interviews Description An account of the resource Videotaped interviews of William James College faculty, students and administrators by Barbara Roos. William James College opened in 1971 as the third baccalaureate degree granting college for Grand Valley. It was originally designed to be an interdisciplinary, non-departmentalized college consisting of concentration programs, rather than majors. Curriculum was organized around three concentrations that were meant to be interdisciplinary career preparation offerings: Social Relations, Administration and Information Management, and Environmental Studies. The college was discontinued in 1983 during a reorganization of Grand Valley. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1984 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/69">William James College faculty and student interviews (GV016-16)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Universities and colleges Oral histories Alternative education Interdisciplinary approach in education Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Roos, Barbara (Interviewer) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV016-16 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Language A language of the resource eng Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV016-16_GVSU_34_Rogers Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rogers, Linda Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1984 Title A name given to the resource Linda Rogers interview (video and transcript) Description An account of the resource Interview with Linda Rogers by Barbara Roos, documenting the history of Grand Valley State's William James College. William James College was the third baccalaureate degree granting college for Grand Valley. It was originally designed to be an interdisciplinary, non-departmentalized college consisting of concentration programs, rather than majors. The college opened in 1971 and was discontinued in 1983 during a reorganization of Grand Valley State. Linda Rogers was a student of William James College who came to Grand Valley to pursue Women's Studies. In this interview, Linda discusses her discovery of William James College and alternative education, her experience studying Women's Issues, and the essence of William James College and its students. This interview is part 1 of 1 for Linda Rogers. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Roos, Barbara (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Universities and colleges Oral histories Alternative education Women in higher education Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/69">William James College faculty and student interviews (GV016-16)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/87cda267b70c0e341f6ac0dd27bf3b67.mp4 406e6fe21cccabf3e19ff39c7047a72b https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6c13e216980d13f03216a69e9b12ff76.pdf dece1c219d1d28942b754d1dad93b951 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Rex Rogers (57:33) (00:25) Background Information • Rex was born in Lansing, Michigan in the early twenties • His father was a tool and dye maker • They moved to Battle Creek, Michigan where Rex went to school • During high school Rex paid much attention to the war • He dropped out of school and began working at the Eaton Manufacturing Company • Rex assumed that he would soon be drafted once Pearl Harbor was attacked (3:25) The Marines • Rex had been offered an opportunity to defer service and continue working, but he turned it down and was drafted in into the Marines • He went through physical testing in Kalamazoo and continued with more tests in Detroit • He was the shipped out to San Diego on a train in February 1943 • They then began boot camp and went through much physical training for 10 weeks • Rex then was sent to an air base to begin training to be a radio man • He also went through rifle training and continued with the radio work for two months (13:20) Texas A & S • Rex was sent to a Texas college for specialized training for 8 months and lived in the dormitories • They were learning code and he eventually got up to 40 words a minute • Sometimes they would go and drink on the weekends, but the surrounding towns were so small and they would have to hitch hike to get there • Rex was later sent to Cherry Point in North Carolina to form the Air Warning Squadron, which helped to detect approaching enemy and instructed fighters where enemy was located for attacks (20:25) Working in the Pacific • Rex left from Clinton Bay and stopped in Hawaii • They were working in a rebuilt baby aircraft carrier • He spent about 5 months in Hawaii, working with 270 long range radios • They had a little time off once in a while to go mountain climbing and visit Honolulu (25:05) Marshall Islands • Rex had been waiting in a staging area for a long time �• • • • • • Everyone was waiting for something to happen and no one knew where they were going or what would happen next They were finally ordered to Guam on July 21, 1944 The area was badly hit, with fires everywhere There was lots of action and bombs were going off everywhere Rex was working on top of a radar van and there were dead Japanese all over the place They were waiting on the beach for the infantry to push inland and then they could set up a better radar station (33:55) One Year in Guam • Rex continued working with radar and helped bring in a Navy TBF torpedo bomber into the area • The Navy Seabees arrived and began working on the air strip • The Marine men got along well the Navy • Men in the Navy got better meals and had better living conditions • Rex and others got close to a few native families • Many of the natives worked with them or for them, helping with laundry and other things like that • There were many Japanese hiding in the hills and remained there for years, avoiding capture (40:50) Daily Life • There were many USO shows with lots of celebrities • Rex was in Guam for a long time and barely any of the damage had been repaired by the time he left • The US later came back in and helped rebuild the area • Rex often had to work on guard duty while in Guam • There were many Japanese soldiers sneaking around at night; they would sneak up to Americans sleeping in fox holes and spear them • Rex was replaced right before the invasion of Iwo Jima (47:50) Posts War • Rex had been sent back to the US in April of 1945 and was working in Texas when Japan was bombed • He began working on aircraft that were later used during the Korean War • After three years in the Marines it was difficult for Rex to get used to civilian life � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RogersR Title A name given to the resource Rogers, Rex (Interview outline and video), 2008 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rogers, Rex Description An account of the resource Rex Rogers was born in Lansing, Michigan. He was drafted into the Marines and sent to San Diego, California in February of 1943. After basic training Rex continued with radio training and then was sent to Texas. Rex lived in the dormitories of Texas A & M for 8 months where he went through specialized training, working with radar. Rex later became part of the Air Warning Squadron where he helped detect approaching enemy and instructed fighters where enemy was located for attack. He participated in the invasion of Guam continued working on radar in Guam until he was replaced shortly before the invasion of Iwo Jima. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans United States. Marine Corps World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Video recordings Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2008-03-03 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f6951e6b9a9b4525b5ba1852fad1b1e5.pdf 82547db3f37944b0341b63aeb05b01ee PDF Text Text � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Civil War and Slavery Collection Subject The topic of the resource United States--History--Civil War, 1861-1865 Slavery--United States African Americans United States--Politics and government--19th century Description An account of the resource A selection of correspondence, diaries, official documents, photographs related to the American Civil War and to the institution of slavery, collected by Harvey E. Lemmen. The collection includes a selection of documents from ten states related to the ownership of slaves and abolition, correspondence and documents of soldiers who fought in the war and from family members and officials, diaries and letters of individuals, and a collection of mailing envelopes decorated with patriotic imagery. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lemmen, Harvey E. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/472">Civil War and Slavery Collection (RHC-45)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/470">John Bennitt Diaries and Correspondence (RHC-43)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/471">Nathan Sargent Papers (RHC-44)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/478">Theodore Peticolas Diary (RHC-51)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/476">Civil War Patriotic Envelopes Collection (RHC-51)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/479">Whitely Read Diary (RHC-52)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1804-1897 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg; application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Image; Text Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1804-1897 Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-45_CW1-5807 Title A name given to the resource Personal account of friendship with Abraham Lincoln by John Linden Roll Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1831 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roll, John Linden Subject The topic of the resource Lincoln, Abraham, 1809-1865 United States--Politics and government--19th century United States--History--Civil War, 1861-1865 Illinois State University Sangamon (Ill. : Township) New Salem (Menard County, Ill.) Springfield (Ill.) Description An account of the resource Biographical sketch of an Illinois family acquainted with Abraham Lincoln in Illinois from 1831. Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Civil War and slavery collection (RHC-45): http://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/472 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives