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                  <text>Text and sound recordings of the sermons, prayers, services, and articles of Richard Rhem, pastor emeritus of Christ Community Church in Spring Lake, Michigan, where he served for 37 years.  Starting in the mid 1980's, Rhem began to question some of the traditional Christian dogma that he had been espousing from the pulpit. That questioning was a first step in a long and interesting spiritual journey, one that he openly shared with his congregation. His journey is important, in part because it is reflective of the questioning, the yearnings, and the gradual revision of beliefs that many persons in this part of the century have experienced and continue to experience. It is important also because of the affirming and inclusive way his questioning was done and his thinking evolved. His sermons and other written and spoken materials together document the steps in his journey as it took a turn in 1985, yet continued to revolve around the framework and liturgies of the Christian calendar.&#13;
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                <text>A sermon given by Richard A. Rhem (Dick) on October 20, 1991 entitled "Prickly Prophets and Purple Kings", as part of the series "The Tradition That Shaped Us", on the occasion of Pentecost XXII, at Christ Community Church, Spring Lake, MI. Scripture references: Amos 7:14-15, Matthew 23:34.</text>
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                    <text>Grand Valley State University
Veterans' History Project
Arden Pridgeon
World War II
1 hour 18 minutes 15 seconds
(00:00:20) Early Life
-Born on April 5, 1924, in Isabella County, Michigan, at home on the family farm
-Attended a one-room schoolhouse
-Farm had no electricity, and no vehicles
-Farmed with horses
-Had 160 acres of farmland, but allowed other people to use the back 80 acres for their farming
-Kept the farm through the Great Depression
-Paid off the mortgage before the Stock Market Crash in 1929
-Grew cucumbers and potatoes as cash crops
-Grew corn to feed the cattle and chickens
-Had one older sister and two younger brothers
-Older sister went to live with a relative when the Great Depression began in 1929
-Made it easier on the family
-Started school when he seven years old
-Had to walk two miles to school and his parents didn't want him to walk alone
-Meant he had to wait until his younger brother was old enough for school
-Parents made sure he knew how to read and write before he started schoolhouse
-Graduated from high school in May 1943
(00:03:44) Start of the War
-Didn't pay much attention to the fighting happening in Europe and Asia prior to American involvement
-Family had a battery-powered radio and a subscription to The Grand Rapids Press
-Heard about the attack on Pearl Harbor on the radio
-Students talked about it in school the following Monday
-Nobody knew where Pearl Harbor was or most of the details
(00:05:28) Selection for Army Specialized Training Program (ASTP)
-He took a pre-induction test for the ASTP in April 1943
-The ASTP was a program that allowed recruits to go to college through the Army
-Receive specialized, educated training that could be used in the Army
-Army needed some soldiers educated in certain areas
-Colleges needed students
-Government agreed to pay public colleges to train soldiers
(00:07:00) Basic Training Pt. 1
-Sent to Fort Benning, Georgia, for his basic training
-Received an advanced version of basic training along with the other ASTP recruits
-Received the equivalent of Officer Training, but graduated as a private
(00:07:23) Army Specialized Training Program Pt. 1
-Selected for basic engineering training
-Sent to the University of Wisconsin in Madison, Wisconsin
(00:07:36) Getting Drafted
-In November 1942, Congress lowered the draft age from 21 years old to 18 years old
-In December 1942 he was granted a deferment to finish high school
-Reported to Fort Custer, Michigan, for induction shortly after graduating high school

�-Stayed there for two or three weeks
-Worked in the kitchen and did other menial tasks
(00:09:07) Basic Training Pt. 2
-Sent to Fort Benning in August 1943
-Traveled there by train
-Saw a segregated drinking fountain in the South
-Came as a shock to him
-Remembers it was a hot and sooty train ride
-Took a couple days to get from Michigan to Georgia
-Had never been in such a hot place before
-At Fort Benning he learned how to be an infantryman
-Marching, shooting and maintaining a rifle, bivouacking, compass reading, and gas training
-Accepted the discipline
-The officers and non-commissioned officers training the ASTP recruits resented them
-Felt that it was unfair they got selected to go to college rather than go fight
-Given demerits, extra kitchen patrol duty, or have passes revoked for infractions
-Completed that training in December 1943
(00:13:23) Army Specialized Training Program Pt. 2
-Sent to the University of Wisconsin for his ASTP training
-He and other recruits were quartered in a fraternity house
-Ate at the Student Union building
-Allowed to drink beer, because the drinking age in Wisconsin was 18 years old
-Attended regular classes
-Marched between classes and had to wear uniforms in class
-Had specified study times and bed times
-Took 24 credit hours per semester
-Stayed at the University of Wisconsin until March 1944 when he completed the term
(00:15:26) Joining the 96th Infantry Division
-The Army shut down the ASTP because more infantrymen were needed to fight
-Assigned to G Company, 381st Infantry Regiment, 96th Infantry Division
-Assigned to G Company as a rifleman
-Trained at Camp White, Oregon, for a month
-Sent to Camp San Luis Obispo and Camp Callan, California, for amphibious training
-Boarded a troopship and went to sea so the soldiers could get used to being at sea
-Did an amphibious training exercise at a nearby island
-Fully loaded with gear and weapons
-Officers and non-commissioned officers in the 96th were inhospitable toward the ASTP men
-Didn't trust their combat abilities
-Received 30 days of refresher training
-Mostly rifle training and going on the infiltration course
-Infiltration course: crawling under barbed wire while a machine gun fires over you
-Felt prepared for that after the advanced training he received at Fort Benning
-After the amphibious exercise they did another amphibious exercise at Oceanside, California
-Landed at the beach and set up camp
-Marines detested their presence
-Sent to Camp Beale, California, for more gas mask training and more map-reading training
(00:20:50) Deployment to the Pacific Theater
-From Camp Beale the division went to Camp Stoneman, California to prepare to go overseas
-Took a barge down to San Francisco and boarded a troopship

�-Left the United States on July 15, 1944, and sailed to Pearl Harbor
-Helped load cargo onto ships for an invasion
-The ship he was on could carry a couple thousand soldiers
-Stayed in Hawaii until September 1944 then left with a few other ships
(00:23:18) Preparation for Invasion of the Philippines
-Initially had orders to invade the island of Yap
-Orders changed to invade the Philippines
-Stayed at sea for one month waiting for the invasion convoy to form
-Allowed to stop at the Admiralty Islands for one day to go swimming and drink beer
-Crossed the Equator, and he went from being a “Pollywog” to being a “Shellback”
-Usually celebrated with a “King Neptune Ceremony,” but there were too many soldiers
(00:25:13) Liberation of the Philippines – Invasion of Leyte
-Invaded the island of Leyte, in the Philippines, on October 20, 1944
-First island in the Philippines to be liberated by American forces
-Told to expect Japanese snipers and a jungle combat zone
-Given Atabrine for malaria and water purification tablets
-Also told which plants were edible
-Navy bombarded the landing zone in the days before the troops went ashore
-Had an uneventful landing
-Surprised by the lack of Japanese resistance
-Went ashore in a Landing Craft Vehicle Personnel (LCVP)
-Had climbed down cargo nets from the troopship into the landing craft
-Japanese forces were disorganized and incapable of regrouping to mount a resistance
-Secured the beachhead and moved into the interior of the island
(00:29:15) Liberation of the Philippines – Battle of Leyte
-First major encounter happened at Mount Catman
-Japanese were defending the hill, but American soldiers and artillery overwhelmed them
-Japanese Navy attempted to destroy the American fleet and cut off the American ground forces
-Note: Battle of Leyte Gulf (October 23-26, 1944); Allied victory; largest naval battle in history
-On December 7, 1944, the Japanese landed paratroopers at the beachhead
-Able to secure the beachhead
-At night he heard Japanese soldiers moving around in the jungle, trying to scavenge food
-Filipinos helped American troops in any way they could
-On November 11, 1944, they were on a patrol when the Japanese ambushed his patrol
-Opened fire with a machine gun
-They were able to reorganize quickly and counterattack, losing only two men
-Stayed low and assessed the situation
-Taught them to be a little more careful
-Set up ambushes against the Japanese
-Found a Japanese soldier in a creek that had committed seppuku (ritual suicide by disembowelment)
-Japanese hid and waited in an attempt to wage a guerrilla war on the American troops
-Minimal organized resistance from the Japanese
-On December 25, 1944, General MacArthur declared the island secured
-Continued to look for Japanese stragglers
-Stayed on guard and carried weapons at all times
-Got one Japanese prisoner-of-war
-Gave him food
-Died two days later because he had been starving and the food killed him
-Pathetic, and he felt sorry for him

�-Able to celebrate Christmas 1944
-Had a special meal, had a Protestant and Catholic chaplain available for religious services
-Sang songs and tried to make things as festive as possible
(00:39:24) Preparation for Okinawa
-On March 20, 1945, they received orders for the invasion of Okinawa
-Knew almost nothing about Okinawa
-Knew it would be a major battle
-Refitted with gear and ammunition and received bayonet training
-He was assigned a bazooka
-Expected Japanese armored resistance
-Had another man carrying a flamethrower
(00:41:33) Invasion of Okinawa
-On April 1, 1945, he saw hundreds of American planes, and over 1,000 American ships off Okinawa
-Saw Japanese kamikaze planes attacking the American ships
-Stood on the deck of his ship and watched the initial landing of troops
-Placed on a Landing Ship Tank then went ashore on a Landing Vehicle Tracked (amphibious tractor)
-No resistance on the beach
-Japanese wanted to draw the Americans deeper into the island before attacking
-Fatal strategic mistake for the Japanese
-Could have stopped the invasion, but allowed too many soldiers to get ashore
-For the first ten days there was little to no resistance from the Japanese
-Marines moved north while the Army moved south
-Landed thousands of troops
(00:44:39) Battle of Okinawa
-Received a Bronze Star for his actions on April 14, 1945
-The Japanese wanted to use their expendable troops first to try and repel the Americans
-Arden and his unit were dug into a position when those Japanese troops charged
-He just kept firing his sub-machine gun until they stopped coming
-None of them broke through the line
-Amazed him that the Japanese kept coming despite being mowed down
-Only artillery support the Japanese had were “knee mortars”
-Note: Knee mortar: Type 89 Grenade launcher; portable and small
-This was the first major action he encountered
-The next day, he and the other troops collected souvenirs from the dead Japanese
-Mostly wristwatches, flags, and other items like that
-Japanese could have inflicted more damage if they had used a better strategy
-Americans were on the offensive
(00:49:20) Getting Wounded
-Shortly after the action on April 14 he was sent to the rear to collect rations and supplies
-Support personnel didn't want to risk coming up to the front line
-En route, a grenade exploded near him and peppered his jaw with shrapnel
-Dog tag chain stopped the shrapnel from hitting his neck
-Went to an aid station near the front line
-Technically, since he had suffered a head wound he required evacuation
-Sent to the airport and flown to the naval hospital on Guam
-Felt uncomfortable being with more severely injured men
(00:51:27) Returning to Okinawa
-Sent to an Army Replacement Depot on Saipan and requested a redeployment to his unit on Okinawa
-Had to do combat training and a psychological evaluation before returning to Okinawa

�-Arrived on Okinawa on June 1, 1945
-Rejoined his old platoon
-All replacements
-He was immediately promoted from private first class to staff sergeant
-Placed in charge of the platoon
-Manned the radio mounted on a flamethrower tank during one advance
-Tank had to be within 25 feet of its target before it fired
-He smelled the flesh burning whenever the tank hit a target
-Japanese soldiers strapped satchel charges to themselves and tried to attack the tank
-American soldiers with the tank shot them before they got close enough
-Pushed the Japanese into the caves or to the end of the island
-Japanese soldiers at the edge of the island committed suicide rather than admit defeat
-One night, the platoon got ahead of the rest of the company
-Had to send a detail of soldiers back to help evacuate the wounded
-Had to stop on the road at night on the way back to the rear
-Made him realize he wouldn't want to be the company commander if the opportunity arose
-Took some shrapnel in his left arm
-Medic told him to keep it as a souvenir (not a serious enough injury to warrant surgery)
-Had civilians surrender to them by the hundreds
-Had dropped 50,000 surrender leaflets on Okinawa before the invasion
-Only saw one Japanese civilian present that leaflet to the Americans
(01:01:34) End of the Battle of Okinawa
-By the end of the battle, most of the buildings on the island had been destroyed
-Okinawans had dug large, underground burial sites
-Japanese soldiers had hid in them which required the sites to be destroyed
-Never saw an intact building on Okinawa
-Saw acres of destroyed rice paddies
-Meant that farming was impossible
-Left the island in mid-July 1945
-Ordered to bury Japanese soldiers on their way back across the island
-Received 25 points during his time on Okinawa
-Note: Points awarded for combat, medals, dependents, rank, and length of service
-Had received a Bronze Star, a Purple Heart, combat, and a promotion on Okinawa
(01:04:22) End of the War
-At the end of July the unit moved to the island of Mindoro in the Philippines
-Prepared there for the planned invasion of Japan
-He was made squad leader for the invasion
-Kept the replacements they had received in Okinawa
-Mindoro was a higher, drier island than Leyte or Okinawa
-Didn't see much of the local population
-On Mindoro when the atomic bombs were dropped on Japan
-Came as a shock for the war to be over so quickly and so dramatically
-Ordered to turn in weapons and ammunition
(01:06:53) Coming Home &amp; End of Service
-Offered the chance to reenlist or go home
-He decided to go home
-Sent to Leyte to board a troopship bound for the United States
-Landed at San Francisco on January 4, 1946
-Given a meal before leaving to be discharged

�-Sent to Camp McCoy, Wisconsin, and was discharged there on January 11, 1946
(01:08:54) Life after the War Pt. 1
-Decided to use the GI Bill to go to college
-Attended Michigan State University
-Graduated in June 1949
-Army Specialized Training Program had helped give him direction for his education
-Took a job offer in Benton Harbor, Michigan
-Moved there on July 11, 1949
-Had a wife and his first child
-Worked for the company in Benton Harbor for 16 years
-Got his master's degree at night school
-Taught at Western Michigan University for 25 years
(01:14:14) Reflections on Service
-His time in the Army helped direct him to college
-Without the Army he probably wouldn't have gone to college
-Wouldn't have had the direction or the funding to do that
-Led to him getting his master's degree in business
(01:16:52) Life after the War Pt. 2
-Got married in 1947
-Had his first child in 1948
-Ultimately had six children
-Had 15 grandchildren and three great-grandchildren
-All of his children graduated from college

�</text>
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Boring, Frank</text>
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                <text>Arden Pridgeon was born on April 5, 1924, in Isabella County, Michigan. In April 1943 he was selected for the Army Specialized Training Program and in the summer he was drafted. He received an advanced form of basic training at Fort Benning, Georgia and in December 1943 he went to University of Wisconsin for the Army Specialized Training Program. In March 1944 he completed his term there and the ASTP was shut down. Arden then received orders to join the 96th Infantry Division and was assigned to G Company, 381st Infantry Regiment. He trained in Oregon and California before deploying to the Pacific Theater on July 15, 1944. He participated in the invasion of Leyte, Philippines, on October 20, 1944, and the subsequent Battle of Leyte which ended on December 25, 1944. In April 1945 he participated in the invasion and the Battle of Okinawa. Upon being wounded on April 15 he was evacuated to Guam for treatment and Saipan for retraining. He returned to Okinawa on June 1, 1945, and continued to fight. In mid-July 1945 he and the rest of the unit moved to Mindoro to train for the invasion of Japan. With the war over, he opted to return to the United States and landed at San Francisco on January 4, 1946, and was discharged on January 11, 1946.</text>
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                    <text>Young Lords
In Lincoln Park
Interviewee: Primitivo Cruz
Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez
Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections
Date: 3/27/2012

Biography and Description
Primitivo Cruz is a Young Lord at heart who studied at De Paul University. He has researched and written
several poems and papers on the Young Lords. Mr. Cruz performed several of his poems and songs at
the Young Lords 40th Anniversary, celebrating the official founding of the Young Lords on September 23,
1968. Most of his work is political by nature, focusing on the Puerto Rican experience, the right to
Puerto Rican self-determination, as well as the rights of new immigrants. He work celebrates the efforts
of many different leaders and movements. Mr. Cruz is well-known across Chicago and beyond as an
artist, writer, and activist.In 2011, Mr. Cruz was involved in the Occupy Wall Street or Chicago
Occupation demonstrations. He discusses this work, as well as that of his wife, Diana Cruz, who is an
actress in the Vida Bella Ensemble, a writer in the Neighborhood Writing Alliance, and a member of the
Chicago Puerto Rican Community Chorus.

�Transcript

JOSE JIMENEZ:

Okay, if you can give me your name and where you were born?

PRIMITIVO CRUZ: Okay, sure. Primitivo Cruz is my name and I was born in Chicago,
Illinois back in 1977.
JJ:

What month?

PC:

July.

JJ:

July, 1977.

PC:

Yeah, July 10th, 1977 to be exact, yeah.

JJ:

Okay. And your parents, when did they first come to Chicago?

PC:

Yeah, my dad came...

JJ:

And their names (overlapping dialogue; inaudible).

PC:

Sure. My dad is also named Primitivo Cruz and he came to Chicago back in
1967 and my mom (Spanish) [Beba Ramos?] came in 19, I believe it was 1974,
[00:01:00] yeah.

JJ:

And so, what town are they from in Puerto Rico and where did they come?

PC:

My father’s from a town called Las Piedras, which is like on the northeast side of
the island and my mom is from Peñuelas which is like southwest, it’s right next to
Ponce.

JJ:

Okay. (audio cuts out)

PC:

Okay. So, I have a brother and his name is Jose Cruz and then I have a sister
from my father’s previous marriage and her name is [Marta Hinojosa?], so yeah.

1

�JJ:

Okay. So, you grew up in -- your father came to what neighborhood first?
[00:02:00]

PC:

When my father came to Chicago, he lived in the Lakeview area by Wrigley Field.
Yeah, so...

JJ:

What street did he live on?

PC:

Cornelia and Rita.

JJ:

And Rita?

PC:

Yeah. And that’s where -- my uncle lived there first, so he...

JJ:

What was your uncle’s name?

PC:

Jose Manuel Cruz. And he still lives and he no longer lives in Chicago, he lives
in Las Piedras again. Yeah, so when my father first came, he met his first wife
and they had a child and then they separated. And then shortly after that, that’s
when he met my mom. [00:03:00]

JJ:

What kinda work did he do when he first came?

PC:

My dad was a factory welder, he used to work for this company called Production
Metal Company, yeah. And so, what my father would do back in those days is
that he would go back and forth from Chicago to Puerto Rico a lot. Because he
was a young guy and I mean, he was basically making money to build a house
for my grandmother in the same site where they had a wooden house. So, that
house actually now belongs to my father.

JJ:

In Las Piedras.

PC:

Yes. In Las Piedras, yeah.

2

�JJ:

So, that was his mission, basically to come here and to make some money and
go back? [00:04:00]

PC:

Yeah, yeah. But, you know, I mean, as soon as you come -- I mean, it seems to
me that back in those days it was actually a lot easier to find work and kinda
leave and come back. Based on what my father has told me about those days
where -- and since Chicago back in those days was a very industrial town, so you
had a lot of factories around. So, my father was able to go ahead and just go
back and forth for a while.

JJ:

Okay, what about your mother, what kind of work did she do?

PC:

My mom actually -- when my mom first came to Chicago, she was doing factory
work as well by what was known back then as Comiskey Park where the
[00:05:00] Chicago White Sox played. She used to work making screws and
making nails. But as soon as I was born, my mom actually stopped working and
she just stayed home until, I would say until the 1990s, actually like in ’96, that’s
when I started college, so she felt like she should go ahead and work.

JJ:

And then what did she do then?

PC:

She took care of the elderly, so she would go to where they lived and she would
cook, clean and do whatever it was that they needed. So that was known as a
homemaker is what she did.

JJ:

Okay. And your father remained doing the same thing?

PC:

Yeah, my father was a factory welder for about 25 years, yeah.

JJ:

Okay. So, are they both in Puerto Rico now?

PC:

They live in Chicago as well.

3

�JJ:

Oh, they’re living here now?

PC:

Yeah, they’re still here.

JJ:

Okay. Now, when was the first time that you heard about the Young Lords?

PC:

The first time I heard about the Young Lords was when I was at DePaul
University as a student. I went to this presentation by...

JJ:

What were you studying there?

PC:

I was studying Latin American studies, just learning about the different Latin
American countries and about Latinos in the United States as well. So, that’s
[00:07:00] what I studied there.

JJ:

Okay, so you heard about him, you went to some kinda meeting you said?

PC:

Yeah, there was a presentation that a person by the name of Mervin Mendez, he
was giving a presentation entitled “Latinos in Lincoln Park.” And that was the first
time that I ever heard of the Young Lords. And I was really inspired by that, I
mean, I subsequently met up with Mervin a couple of more times because I
wanted to hear more about the Young Lords and what become about them, you
know, because I had never heard of that. And I think what really got my attention
was that [00:08:00] I knew about Martin Luther King, Malcolm X, the Black
Panthers, but I had no idea that there was a Puerto Rican group that was very
much patterned after the Black Panthers in that way. So, I mean that was really
inspiring and just also the fact that it was a turf gang that transformed itself into a
political organization just kind of -- one of the things that I kind of took from that is
a lot of social change actually comes from the ground up like it’s just regular
people that are kind of part of the street life and that are part of the [00:09:00]

4

�neighborhood. If you band together, you could do some great things. I mean,
the Young Lords’ legacy, that’s basically something that we can still continue to
this day. I mean, a lot of the same issues that the Young Lords fought back then
are the same exact issues that we are fighting right now. I mean, gentrification is
still there, but now we live further west on the North Side and they keep pushing
people further west. And yeah, I mean, there have definitely been a lot of
community initiatives. I was once a community organizer myself when I came
out of college. [00:10:00] But one of the things that I found about that was that
nonprofits are kind of tied to funding, and then you have to ask yourself, where is
it that the comes from. And you realize that that comes from a lot of wealthy
people that feel some sort of a guilt trip about what’s going on. But in terms of
having a grassroots movement like that, I mean, I would love to see something
like that again. People say that these are different times, but it’s kinda like that
old cliché like [00:11:00] “The more things change then the more things stay the
same.” So, it’s just that right now we’re just dealing with the same kinds of
issues, but now we’re dealing with those for the west, you know.
JJ:

Now, you were fascinated not just with any group, but you were fascinated with
the Black Panthers. Why so militant?

PC:

Because it’s a group of people that have kind of decided that they are no longer
gonna just take whatever they get, and that they were gonna fight for social
justice. And it’s just this whole thing of banding together to do something.

JJ:

But why do you feel that that that was necessary? [00:12:00]

5

�PC:

Because I feel that power was not only just convincing people. Like a group like
the Black Panthers is they were very confrontational when they actually needed
to do that. And it is done by the very people that are being oppressed. So, I
mean, that I feel was a very transformative experience for everybody, for those
people that participated and even for [00:13:00] those people that just looked on
or that came after, they actually leave that legacy of struggle for you to refer back
to.

JJ:

So, did this come out of your life growing up in Chicago? Where did you grow
up, what neighborhood did you grow up in?

PC:

I grew up in a couple of areas, but mainly Logan Square.

JJ:

(overlapping dialogue; inaudible). What were some of the areas you grew up in?

PC:

Yeah, so it’s Logan Square, the West Humboldt Park area, Bucktown, Wicker
Park, so, you know, maybe -- those were the areas.

JJ:

So grew up in Wicker Park too then.

PC:

Mm-hmm.

JJ:

Okay, because Wicker Park no longer exists as a Latino community today or -did you grow up when it was changing?

PC:

Yeah, you know, I mean, [00:14:00] we moved there back in I believe it was
1987. So, that was actually the first time that I encountered gentrification, I was
10 years old. But of course, I didn’t know that term back then, but I knew that
there was a very big difference between the new residents that lived there and
the older people that were there like the longtime community people.

6

�JJ:

What kind of (overlapping dialogue; inaudible), what do you mean, (overlapping
dialogue; inaudible)?

PC:

I mean, it’s just in terms of like you could definitely tell that the newer people that
moved into the area were -- they had more money than the rest of us [00:15:00],
you know. You would see ‘em leave for work and you would see ‘em dressed
nice and they had the nice car and yeah, I mean they would build these
humongous, humongous houses like right next to this old brick Chicago building,
and so you knew that there was definitely a big difference between us and them,
us, we were just working class folks. And by the way, my particular block was a
very interesting block man, we had all kinds of people that lived in that block. We
had...

JJ:

Which block was that, explain?

PC:

It’s the 1600 [00:16:00] block of Hermitage in Bucktown. Yeah, I mean, we had
people from Poland, we had Mexicanos, some Puerto Ricans, we had -- man, I
actually remember that we actually had a house where there were transvestite
prostitutes and his pimp and all this. But then, you know, right next to those
people you had like professionals and all of this, but they were just starting to
come in around the late ‘80s or so.

JJ:

In the late ’80s?

PC:

Yeah.

JJ:

Okay. Had you heard what type of neighborhood before that, before the ‘80s?

PC:

Yeah, my father told me that [00:17:00] there were a lot of Puerto Ricans that
actually lived there. There is a building right on the corner of Wabansia and

7

�Marshfield and there was a school across the street called Jonathan Burr School,
that’s where I went to school for like the last five years of grammar school. But
anyway, that particular building there, my father told me that a lot of people from
Las Piedras lived in that building, which was very interesting. When my father
tells me -- back in those days when my father would tell me that Puerto Ricans
lived here or that Puerto Ricans lived there, I thought that he was full of it, you
know, (laughs) because [00:18:00] when I go to these particular areas, there’s no
Puerto Ricans to be found these days. But then that actually goes back to when
I went to college, and I went to that presentation about Latinos in the Lincoln
Park area. I mean, that brought up a whole conversation about the fact that
Puerto Ricans lived all over Chicago at one point and that we were actually the
largest Latino group in the city of Chicago. We meaning -- Puerto Ricans came,
we started coming around the 1950s. [00:19:00] I mean, we may not be the
longest living group in the city, but we were definitely a big group.
JJ:

Okay, so you grew up in Logan Square you said, and Bucktown and some of
these other communities.

PC:

Yeah.

JJ:

And so, when you were growing up in Logan Square, when you say Logan
Square, what streets were you...

PC:

Let’s see, Logan Square, I used to live on Kimball by Armitage, Hamlin and --

JJ:

Fullerton?

PC:

-- Fullerton, and most recently, Cortland and Spaulding. Yeah.

8

�JJ:

And what do you remember, what year did you [00:20:00] start remembering
things?

PC:

Kimball...

JJ:

What was it like growing up there?

PC:

Yeah, Logan Square, we had our, you know...

JJ:

What type of population?

PC:

What type of population. I mean, there was Puerto Rican, Mexican and a little bit
of African American. Yeah.

JJ:

And what do you remember?

PC:

What do I remember about Logan Square, man, it’s just...

JJ:

I mean, who were your friends and what (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)?

PC:

Yeah, well look, the thing about me is that I actually lived a very sheltered life.
So, my father wouldn’t let us go out and just play with other kids.

JJ:

Why was that, I mean why...

PC:

You know, like [00:21:00] I mean, I feel like that was more of an
overprotectiveness.

JJ:

But why were you being protected, I mean from who?

PC:

I was being protected from the other kids -- see, one of the things about me is -one, is that I used to wear these thick, these big thick glasses and I have always
had a speech impediment. So, my father didn’t want me to talk to other kids or
play with other kids because they were gonna make fun of me. And yeah, that
was pretty much true. When I was in school, yeah, I would get made fun of a lot.

9

�And my brother, he didn’t have all that, but there was still this thing of [00:22:00],
“I have to protect my kids,” and that’s the way we were raised.
JJ:

Okay, so with you, it had to do with the speech impediment --

PC:

Yeah.

JJ:

-- and it had to do with the glasses.

PC:

Yeah.

JJ:

But your brother, you said he had to be protected too.

PC:

Yeah.

JJ:

Was there anything in the neighborhood that you had to be protected from?

PC:

Well, you know, they were definitely scared of gangs there. In those days, yeah,
we definitely had gangs. But to be perfectly honest with you, when gangbangers
would look at me, it was no big deal because I was just a nerdy kid with big
glasses, so, “He’s part of the neighborhood,” you know what I mean, like I
[00:23:00] wasn’t a threat. But things do go on in the street, so he was basically
trying to protect us from a lot of the gang violence. And yeah, I mean, I
remember one time, me and my brother were playing catch in the alley and my
father was there, and we see one of the neighborhood kids man, oh, and he was
one of the few Puerto Ricans that lived in the area at that time. (audio cuts out)
running down the alley and then we heard this car screeching tires and then we
see it and then it comes straight down, you know, just it comes [00:24:00] straight
down the alley and me and my brother and my father had to scatter and just
move to the side because they were trying to run the kid over. We saw things
like that. We saw kids get jumped and all that kind of stuff, we saw fights. One

10

�thing that we never saw there in that particular area, but we saw later was we
saw -- was that we didn’t see any shootings even though we would hear about
that. But when I lived in Bucktown, we didn’t see any of that.
JJ:

With cars chasing [00:25:00] people and --

PC:

Yeah, those kinds of things, yeah.

JJ:

-- fist fights and stuff like that?

PC:

Yeah, yeah. But what is very interesting about that is that I would actually get
into fights anyway, not with gang members but with kids that would tease me. I
mean, you know, we all fought.

JJ:

Were they Puerto Rican or were they just...

PC:

You know what, one of them was, yeah. It’s such a small world because it turns
out and I come to find this out, I don’t know, 20 something years later that his
blood uncle who lives in Florida is my uncle too, but not by blood because he
[00:26:00] got married to my aunt. (laughs) So, you know, it turns out that, I
mean, we’re not blood related, but we have that connection. Since it was a
predominantly Mexican area at that time, yeah, I mean, I used to get into fights
with Mexican kids and stuff. And it wasn’t over that, but it was just over little
things that I just got tired, you know, and I said, “You know what man, I’m gonna
have to fight to get this person off my back,” you know what I mean, with my thick
glasses and all. And if I got my butt kicked, then I got it kicked. But what was
great about that was that that person would not bother you anymore. [00:27:00]
(laughs)

JJ:

What about the rest of your -- you said you have a brother and a sister?

11

�PC:

Yeah.

JJ:

How was their life growing up there in Bucktown?

PC:

In Bucktown, well my sister, we...

JJ:

Why do they call it Bucktown (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)?

PC:

You know what, I heard something about goats, but I really don’t know (laughs)
what the deal is with that. I just didn’t get into why they call it that. Yeah, I mean,
I’m not really sure. But when it...

JJ:

It’s the area around from what street to what street?

PC:

You know what, generally speaking, man, I would say that it goes from -- and this
is just me talking, you know what I mean, I don’t really know the official --

JJ:

Boundaries, yeah.

PC:

-- boundaries of it. But I would say from like Armitage and like Western
[00:28:00] to like North Avenue and then Ashland. But that’s a (overlapping
dialogue; inaudible).

JJ:

So, like from Ashland to Western, from Armitage to North Avenue?

PC:

Yeah, yeah.

JJ:

Okay, so that was Bucktown, okay. So, you said your brothers and sisters, what
was their life like?

PC:

Yeah, well when it comes to my sister, I mean father lost contact with her years
ago and he didn’t know where she was. So, we actually found her back in ’97,
yeah. But in terms of my brother, I mean...

JJ:

So, are you in contact with her now?

PC:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

12

�JJ:

And what do you mean you found her?

PC:

Let’s see, I found her on the internet. [00:29:00]

JJ:

You told your father.

PC:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

JJ:

What he say?

PC:

Oh well, he sent for her to come so that she could visit and so that she could
meet us and everything.

JJ:

And you’ve been in contact ever since.

PC:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

JJ:

Okay, so your brother, what about him, (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)?

PC:

Yeah, me and him grew up together and I think that he went through a lot of the
same experiences that I went through. Yeah, I mean we basically grew up the
same exact way. And he probably sees things differently than I do, meaning that
he probably has his own story about things. But yeah, [00:30:00] there’s not
much to say -- I mean, one of the things about him is that he was more active in
terms of -- let’s see, like I really wanted to play baseball when I was a kid, but,
you know, since I had the thick glasses and it was dangerous and blah, blah,
blah, I couldn’t do it. But my brother, he got to play and all of that, so it was just
different. So, I kinda had to live those things through him, just kinda cheer him
on and just do that.

JJ:

So, he was on a team and...

PC:

Yeah, yeah.

JJ:

A neighborhood team or --

13

�PC:

Yeah, yeah. He used to play in this park called Churchill Field which is on
Damen Avenue [00:31:00] and [Bloomingdale?] I think it is. It’s right by Cortland
there. Now they don’t use it as a baseball diamond anymore, now it’s a park for
dogs. (laughs) Yeah, and it’s a lot nicer than back then.

JJ:

For the dogs (inaudible).

PC:

Yeah. (laughs)

JJ:

[They were?] against dogs.

PC:

I have a dog myself [and everything?].

JJ:

But it’s nicer you said (inaudible).

PC:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it’s a nicer...

JJ:

Were there any community groups at all working with the youth at all at that time
or any organizations that you remember?

PC:

Yeah, I mean, I remember that there was BUILD, which is still there. [00:32:00]

JJ:

What kind of work did BUILD do?

PC:

As far as I know, that was what they called street intervention. So, they had
people come to the schools and talk to us about the whole gang life and drugs
and all that stuff, which I think is really the best way to, I don’t know, to inform
kids about the whole gang culture, you know what I mean? I don’t think it’s
enough to say, “Don’t join gangs.” But I think it’s also important to know why they
existed in the first place and what they have become now. It's just really
important to kinda draw distinctions between both. [00:33:00] Because based on
what I know now, the whole gang life wasn’t necessarily a bad thing, sometimes
it was something that you needed to do or that you needed to be a part of.

14

�JJ:

Where did you get the knowledge and why do you feel that way?

PC:

Definitely when I found out about the Young Lords, that just changed my whole
perception. And when I was a kid back in the 1980s, I mean, I actually -- and this
was in the Humboldt Park area, north -- Monticello is where I used to live. My
mom would come home from the grocery store and, she [00:34:00] had all these
bags in this cart and they would all be standing right there and they would all see
us and stuff, and they would actually help my mom with the groceries. So, those
things kinda stay with you.

JJ:

Who’s they?

PC:

I’m not sure what -- I mean, I know that they were young kids that would just
hang around and we just kind of assumed that they were a gang and that they
were a crew. But I’m not sure which --

JJ:

Group.

PC:

-- which group it was, which particular gang it was. But yeah, there was definitely
fear instilled in us at home, you know, “Oh, you know, those guys are dangerous,
blah, blah, blah and those guys are crazy and blah, blah, blah.” [00:35:00] And
of course we would see things too, you know. But when it came to us, we were
cool, we were part of the neighborhood, and we were little kids. We were also
potential gang members anyway in their eyes. I know that -- my father told me
that he would actually talk to them and just be cool with them, so that they would
protect his car, you know. So, he would go and buy a six pack of beer and sit
with them and talk to them and they said, [00:36:00] “You know what, yeah, you
are fine.” But he was still afraid of it. We were still afraid of the violence and all

15

�of that. And things would definitely happen, I mean, we would see people bash
people’s car windows in and stuff like that. And I remember seeing canes on the
floor, canes, you now, that they would actually use and stuff like that. You
definitely knew that there was an element of danger early on, yeah.
JJ:

And so, the gang was basically like part of living up -- and part of the
neighborhood, they were connected, everybody knew them, I mean, everybody --

PC:

Yeah.

JJ:

-- was connected one way or the other. Your father [00:37:00] would relate to
them, but he didn’t want you to relate to them.

PC:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

JJ:

So, he was kind of like -- that was his way of protecting you by just kinda hanging
out a little with all these are my kids and, you know.

PC:

Yeah.

JJ:

So, he could kind of relate to them, but he didn’t want you to be in that world?

PC:

Right, right.

JJ:

Is that how you see it or how did you see it?

PC:

I mean, yeah, that’s definitely part of it, that’s definitely part of what he was
feeling, you know, that -- and then...

JJ:

And why do you think he understood their world better than you would
understand?

PC:

Because I think my father wanted us to grow up and be a certain way and he
didn’t want us to be like him.

JJ:

Oh, so he was like them --

16

�PC:

Yeah.

JJ:

-- in a way. He could relate to them.

PC:

Yeah, yeah. [00:38:00] And one of the things that was instilled in us is, “No, you
guys are going to school. You guys are going to school. You guys can’t think
about that. You guys -- no, not my kids, you all are not gonna go into that kinda
lifestyle (inaudible).” But then he was also keeping us away from other kids that
didn’t have anything to do with that. So, it was kinda like a very isolating
experience. I mean, we did have friends in school, and we were allowed to kind
of be with certain kids as long as my father knew their parents and [00:39:00] as
long as he knew that they were okay. Then maybe we could play with them or
whatever or be friends or whatever. But yeah, I mean, it was definitely tough for
us to just kind of relate to what he...

JJ:

How did he know their parents, (inaudible) relate to their parents?

PC:

Let’s see, so the way that he met some of them was that when my brother played
baseball, that’s how he would meet parents of kids. And that’s where he would
make friends with them and just see if -- I mean, it’s just like anybody else, you
might click with this person and you might not click with this other person for
whatever reason. So, there was actually one [00:40:00] particular family where
he's like, “You know what, those guys are cool, so you guys can hang out and
play and blah, blah, blah.” But that was pretty much only one family. (laughs)
And then we kind of -- we meaning the kids kinda like outgrew each other, you
know, like we just had different interests after a while, so we just kinda stopped
being friends I guess you could say. (laughs) Yeah.

17

�JJ:

So, in school what kept you motivated in school, I mean, what...

PC:

Man, I don’t know what kept me motivated in school. (laughs) I really don’t man.
I don’t know how I got as far as getting a bachelor’s degree, I really don’t.

JJ:

And you went to grammar school.

PC:

Yeah.

JJ:

Where did you go to high school? [00:41:00]

PC:

Lane Tech High School.

JJ:

Lane Tech?

PC:

Yeah.

JJ:

That’s a pretty good athletic school (inaudible).

PC:

I mean, it’s a pretty good academic school, yeah.

JJ:

Academic.

PC:

Yeah.

JJ:

What type of population and what years?

PC:

I went there from 1992 to 1996. And we had all kinds of students. That was a
great experience for me because I got to meet all kinds of people, I mean all
kinds of people, people that were from -- we had Greek people, Italian people,
Syrian people, Indian people, other Latino groups like Guatemalans, Colombians,
people from Africa, Ethiopia, [00:42:00] Nigeria, people from Asia. Well, you
know, I just said India, but you know, people from Japan, China and people from
Thailand, the Philippines. I mean, we had ‘em all. So, that was great to see that,
and that was great to kind of be around all of those kind of groups because you
realize how big the world is. I mean, that school was actually huge, there’s like

18

�4,000 students there. That was a good experience in that sense. But Lane Tech
also had its problems though.
JJ:

Before we go into the problems, so it was very diverse, was it like a magnet
school, how was it diverse? Was the community diverse or --

PC:

Yeah, no.

JJ:

-- did people come [00:43:00] from all over?

PC:

Yeah, so people came from all over the city. What it was was that there was -they would actually pick kids that were like the top of their class and all of that.
So, they would pick kids from all over Chicago, as long as you lived I believe it
was north of Roosevelt Road and if you were in good academic standing and if
you applied to the school, you could get into the school. So, yeah, I definitely
worked my butt off the last two years of grammar school because I really wanted
to get into that school and [00:44:00] I barely did, I barely got into the school.
But, I mean, I was there for all four years and stuff. And that was definitely a
tough experience too for different reasons.

JJ:

(inaudible) what sort of reasons?

PC:

Well, in terms of just -- I said earlier that there were about 4,000 students and
that’s a huge student body. I mean, if you go inside of a classroom, it’s like 30,
40 kids sometimes. And so, the teacher couldn’t give you the proper attention all
of the time and all that. And then of course there were some classes that you
just didn’t want the teacher to even look at you (laughs) because you knew that
[00:45:00] she -- I definitely felt like, what is it, like a small fish in a big pond

19

�there. Definitely felt like I wasn’t the smartest kid because you had some brains
over there.
JJ:

(inaudible) you didn’t want the teacher to call on you?

PC:

Yeah man, when I had to read out loud especially, what a problem, what a
problem, or just to ask me a question man, it was just really nerve racking, you
know. Sometimes I think I would just...

JJ:

You laugh, I mean what were you thinking?

PC:

Just that sometimes you would prefer to be invisible. (laughs) When I was there,
it was just like (audio cuts out) “I really don’t wanna rock the boat and I just
wanna get through these four years and get outta [00:46:00] there,” you know.

JJ:

Yeah, okay. So, you got through the four years, now you’re going into DePaul?

PC:

Yeah. Well, and also, can I say something about when I was in grammar
school?

JJ:

(overlapping dialogue; inaudible).

PC:

Yeah, yeah. Because what you were asking me about what --

JJ:

Motivated?

PC:

-- motivated me to keep going in school too was, I think it was fifth or sixth grade,
sixth grade, sixth grade we had 50 people in sixth grade at Jonathan Burr
Elementary School. And we were picked by this foundation called the Polk
Brothers Foundation, they have this program called the I Have a Dream
Program. [00:47:00] And that particular program, they’re a nationwide program, I
think it started in New York City. But it’s basically a group of very wealthy people
got together and said to us, ‘If you guys get through high school, we can assist

20

�you financially through college.” So, during those years when we had a person
assigned to us -- well, actually three, I think it was three, three people assigned
to us to kind of make sure that we did go to college and that was there for us and
all of this. So, I had that, and I don’t think a lot of kids had that. [00:48:00] You
know what, it’s not that I don’t think, it’s that I know. So that is actually one of the
main reasons why I got through high school and why I went through college, not
only because I was promised money, but because we had people that were on
us all of the time trying to get us to get better in school or they would actually
take us to outings and stuff like that. We got to do some real cool things.
JJ:

What kinda outings?

PC:

We would go play basketball, we would do bowling, we would go see plays if we
wanted to. If we were off from school, we would go and do like a [00:49:00]
career day and we would go to a particular company, and they would talk about
what they did and they had a lot of people of color there. I actually remember
meeting Puerto Rican engineers, African American engineers, people that were
professional. So, you know, we got to see people that looked like us that did
those kinda jobs, you know, just to kind of say we’re just as smart as anybody
else. I mean, that’s what I took from it. So, we got to see a lot of different things
that I know that a lot of kids didn’t get to do [00:50:00] when they were growing
up. And then there was definitely a struggle there between my father and the
person that served as our --

JJ:

Mentor?

PC:

-- mentor, yeah.

21

�JJ:

What kinda struggle?

PC:

So, there were definitely a lot of clashes, like there were times when my father
didn’t want me to go to this thing because, “I don’t really know him and I don’t
know -- and I don’t know what’s gonna happen. And, you know, some of those
kids are actually bad kids.” It was that kinda thing. And then he would call up
and talk to my dad and he would try to [00:51:00] reason with my father and blah,
blah, blah. And I think in the end, I feel like my father -- felt very challenged, but I
think my father at that particular time -- I guess he got through my father, you
know what I mean? Yeah, he didn’t like him to call, but he would still talk to him.
And then my father would say things like, “Well, (Spanish),” about this, that and
the other. Yeah, he is right about this, that and the other, but you would see a
look on his face like, “Yeah, he's right, damn it.” (laughs)

JJ:

Why was your father so worried about your safety and protecting you? Did
something happen to him or something that...

PC:

Well, first of all, I mean he definitely had a lot of things that – would happened to
him, in terms of just getting into fights. When my father was young, just like any
other young person, you like to go out and you like to have fun, you like to meet
girls and blah, blah, blah. So, what he would do is that he would go to the
neighborhood bars and hang out and dance, whatever, and whatever. So, you
know, I mean, fights broke out, you know, folks get drunk, you know.

JJ:

At the neighborhood bar?

PC:

Yeah.

JJ:

With other Latinos?

22

�PC:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Folks would get drunk and blah, blah, blah and
there -- and then if he was with his brother and if his brother got into a fight
[00:53:00] of course my father had to go in...

JJ:

Was his brother in a gang or something?

PC:

No, no.

JJ:

But they were just bar fights?

PC:

Yeah, yeah.

JJ:

A lot of bar fights?

PC:

Yeah.

JJ:

What area was that?

PC:

Cornelia and Reta over there.

JJ:

Oh Cornelia, yeah.

PC:

But...

JJ:

Actually, there were a few gangs in there.

PC:

Then...

JJ:

A few bar gangs (overlapping dialogue; inaudible).

PC:

A few bar gangs?

JJ:

Yeah.

PC:

But they would actually go to Las Vegas Night Club on Armitage all the way west
over there, to -- they would go to, man La Concha which I have no idea where
that’s at anymore. Is it on North and California over there?

JJ:

(inaudible) yeah, a lot of people used to go there.

23

�PC:

Habana San Juan. These are all things and names that I have heard him talk
about. So, that’s where he would hang. [00:54:00] Oh, of course, he would go to
the Aragon Ballroom. So, those are the kind of places where they would go to.

JJ:

And he would definitely get into fights. Had he ever gone to jail --

PC:

Once or twice...

JJ:

-- do you know for a fight or a brawl or anything?

PC:

As far as I know, no, no.

JJ:

Okay, but he wouldn’t be into brawls.

PC:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it’s funny because in my wife’s family and in mine, they
are very similar with that kind of stuff, like, “Oh, you can’t go out.” But with me,
with me and my brother, it’s kinda weird because they usually would do that with
girls, girls were the ones that were highly protected in that way. [00:55:00]
Something else that comes to mind too is that both of my parents...

JJ:

(inaudible) there was a big gang epidemic later too, maybe that could be it too.

PC:

I mean, yeah.

JJ:

So, it wasn’t just the girls, it would be the youth.

PC:

Yeah, yeah.

JJ:

Yeah, I don’t know, I don’t know. What do you think? What do you think?

PC:

I mean, I definitely think that it’s a combination of things, it’s just not one thing.
Yeah, I mean, yeah, definitely there were a lot of gangs.

JJ:

I mean, you were there, so I’m asking you (overlapping dialogue; inaudible).

PC:

Yeah, yeah. Part of it too that both of my parents, they -- well first of all, my mom
wasn’t raised by her parents. My mom was raised by her grandparents.

24

�JJ:

Why was that?

PC:

Because my grandfather and my grandmother split up. [00:56:00] And I forget
how many kids they had, but it was way too many for just one parent to take care
of. So, some were, I think three -- yeah, three were given to the grandparent and
I think there were two that were given to this aunt. So, they were all kinda like
split up, split from each other. And then as far as my father’s concerned, his
father passed away when my dad was like nine or ten. So, my father wasn’t
raised by his father. You could say that my father was raised by [00:57:00] one
of my uncles, which was his older brother and he has always said that he really
wasn’t raised by his mom and that he used to cause a lot of trouble with his
mom. Because he actually left when he was 16. So, I don’t know if he was just
afraid that we were gonna turn into him. (laughs) I’m not really sure what that is,
I’m not really sure. I think part of it has to do with the fact that he really didn’t -- I
mean, yes my uncle raised him, but he was only four years older than my father.
So, my father didn’t have a real father figure. [00:58:00] So, maybe he just didn’t
know how to do it, or he -- and so he just felt, “Let me -- “ but the flip side to that
is that we spent a lot of quality time with my father anyway because we would
practice playing ball. I was not part of a team, but we would practice together
and just kind of do exercise. That’s kind of like the -- I mean, we definitely got to
spend a lot more time than I think most kids our age. That’s why we can still
speak Spanish, that’s why [00:59:00] I feel like we knew things about our family
because my father would sit and just tell us stories about people, people that
were blood related, but we didn’t know personally because they lived in Puerto

25

�Rico, and we live here. But he would make those people come alive for us. So,
when we did finally get a chance to go see these people, it felt like I had known
these people all of my life. We would see pictures of them and all of that. So, to
me, it was just yeah, that’s this guy and that’s this girl and there’s this person and
this is what happened and this is -- so [01:00:00] I mean, because they were like
that, we pretty much grew up in our house, we didn’t go out and play with the
other kids and all that. And then in my house you spoke Spanish or you -- you
still speak Spanish in my house. So those things are there. So, you know, I
mean, it’s not all bad and it’s not all good.
JJ:

And it kept you out of the gang.

PC:

It kept me out of a gang even though to be perfectly honest with you, I really
don’t think that I would have joined the gang anyway and I don’t think that they
woulda wanted me anyway, so -- (laughs) because I’m not a tough guy.

JJ:

You were in the same neighborhood, I mean(inaudible) --

PC:

Yeah.

JJ:

-- but you were in the same neighborhood. But it kept you out of there and it got
you to DePaul.

PC:

Mm-hmm.

JJ:

Do you think that’s what kept you outta there [01:01:00] or am I making an
assumption? I wanna know what you think.

PC:

What kept me outta the gang culture?

JJ:

Did your father spending quality time with you, did that contribute to keeping you
out of the gang culture?

26

�PC:

I mean, I would say so. It’s really hard to tell because there was no desire within
me ever to be part of the gang culture.

JJ:

And why is that?

PC:

Because of the way that it was -- one was it was based on what I was told and
based on what I saw. I didn’t wanna get my head bashed in, you know what I
mean? (laughs) But, yeah, it’s funny because I do run into kids that grew up with
me and [01:02:00] they’re not kids anymore, they’re my same age, and we talk
and everything. And they say to me, “Yeah -- “ now that we’re grown it’s like one
of the things that they say to me is, “Well, you know, I just wanted to be a part of
something back then, and, my dad wasn’t around,” and all of this. So, that’s part
of the reason why they actually felt like they needed to join because they really
wanted to have -- because they wanted to know how to be men. That’s like a big
reason why a lot of the kids that I grew up with [01:03:00] got into the culture like
that. And some were just intimidated by the gang members, and they said, “You
are gonna join the gang and that’s that, or else.” Whatever that was. So, you
had those two things going on.

JJ:

Okay, 1982 or 1983, the Harold Washington campaign was in the Logan Square
area and the Young Lords, even though they weren’t using that name were very
active in your area where you live. Were you living in Logan Square at that time,
1982 and ’83?

PC:

Nineteen eighty-two and ’83 I was in West Humboldt Park.

27

�JJ:

West Humboldt Park, okay. And also Harold Washington, there was another
office in that area working very strong in the Humboldt Park area, West
[01:04:00] Humboldt Park. Do you remember, how old were you at that time?

PC:

Nineteen eighty-two and ’83, I was four and five.

JJ:

Oh, you were only four and five.

PC:

Yeah.

JJ:

Okay, so you don’t recall any of that.

PC:

You know what, the only -- yes, I mean, the only thing that I do recall
unfortunately (laughs) is that my mom who she was the only one that would vote,
and she didn’t wanna vote for Washington. She wanted Jane Byrne.

JJ:

Okay.

PC:

(laughs) So, that’s the other thing I remember from that particular...

JJ:

A lot of Puerto Ricans went for Jane Byrne in the beginning and (inaudible). So,
she was basically following the Puerto Rican culture at that time, a lot of Puerto
Rican (inaudible) Jane Byrne.

PC:

Really, I didn’t know that. Yeah, yeah.

JJ:

And I think the Young Lords [01:05:00] took people to Harold Washington and
other groups and [West Town Coalition?]. Okay, so did your father ever mention
the Young Lords or anything like that or was that named mentioned?

PC:

You know, not the Young Lords. He was more familiar with Los Hijos del Diablo.

JJ:

Oh, Los Hijos del Diablo.

PC:

Los Hijos del Diablo and La Hacha Vieja.

28

�JJ:

Oh, La Hacha Vieja. What did he say about La Hacha Viejas and Los Hijos del
Diablo, let’s go over those groups. Both of those groups were connected in a
way with the Young Lords.

PC:

The Young Lords?

JJ:

Yeah. (inaudible).

PC:

Still working?

JJ:

They’re working.

PC:

Okay. He would basically tell me that especially with Los Hijos del Diablo, they
[01:06:00] would actually hang out at a particular bar. I’m not sure where that bar
was or anything like that, but he said that you knew when they would walk into
the door and all of this. And I’m like, “Why?” “Oh, because they were these big
guys and blah, blah.” But he really didn’t -- that’s kinda like as far as it goes. He
talks about seeing a lot of afros every once in a while and all this stuff and that he
wouldn’t mess with them and that he would stay away and all of that and blah,
blah, blah and that it was dangerous and that you just didn’t wanna get into it with
them and blah, blah, blah. So, it was that kinda of thing.

JJ:

And what did he say about the La Hacha Viejas?

PC:

La Hacha Vieja, you know, he didn’t say too much.

JJ:

They were one of the first [01:07:00] gangs in Chicago and stuff like that.

PC:

Yeah, yeah.

JJ:

We’re kinda finishing it up. What do you think is important in terms of this project
that we’re trying to do here just telling the history of the Lincoln Park, but in

29

�general the community, the Puerto Rican community and displacement and
(inaudible)?
PC:

Yeah, I mean...

JJ:

What keeps you inspired? Because I know that every time we talk about the
Young Lords, you’re excited.

PC:

Yeah, I get excited, yeah, yeah.

JJ:

(inaudible).

PC:

Yeah, you know, I think one of the things [01:08:00] is that what (audio cuts out)
what the Young Lords did, I feel that it can be done again.

JJ:

What is it that Young Lords did that you feel should be done again? What aspect
of the Young Lords (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)?

PC:

Yeah, I mean for me it would be great to see a gang turn into a political
organization just like back in those days. And I’m always afraid to say that it’s
never gonna happen. One is because I want it to happen and two is because
that’s very pessimistic to say, “Ah, you know, these are just a bunch of kids that
don’t know anything.” But the fact of the matter is is that that could happen
again. [01:09:00] Maybe it’s just that there are people out there -- and I know
that there are plenty of people out there that just don’t know about the Young
Lords, they don’t know what you guys were all about. But what really concerns
me though is that we live in a very materialist culture. I mean, young people
now, they’re just kind of obsessed with money, money and just kinda like the -we tend to glorify -- and I am gonna add this -- and I am gonna include myself in

30

�this age bracket, because it’s my particular age group and I’m 34 years old.
When [01:10:00] the whole...
JJ:

Hippie?

PC:

I can’t say it.

JJ:

Hip-hop movement.

PC:

Yeah. When the whole hip-hop movement came about, it wasn’t about that, you
know what I mean? And that was actually a form of kind of social activism. And
when it started in New York City, from my understanding is that the whole gang
culture kind of stopped being and they all kinda joined together [01:11:00] as
well. And I would say from like the 1970s to about the 1980s there has been a
claim that there were no gangs out there. So, the way that that started was kind
of reminiscent of what the Young Lords were about, but it was slightly different.
There is, as far as I know, there are not a lot of Latino groups out there that kinda
think in terms of the reorganization of society. One of the things was that
[01:12:00] Black Panthers and the Young Lords were about -- you were very anticapitalist and very much looking at socialism as a way of being. And so, a lot of
groups don’t have that, I mean, a lot of activist groups don’t have that, they’re
more reformer groups and all of that. Yeah, so I think that’s what’s different now
in that there is a lot of people that have come into the rap world and talk
[01:13:00] about the cars and talk about the gold. And they will glorify Scarface,
Tony Montana and Don Corleone, the Godfather and all of this stuff. So, it’s just
kind of like -- and it’s just gotten worse. I mean, it has gotten to the point where
there’s so much buffoonery. And you have a lot of these rappers that are like...

31

�JJ:

(inaudible) We are gonna have to finish it up.

PC:

Okay. You know, that are like really not saying anything and they’re very
influential, but there’s no [01:14:00] consciousness with what they’re saying. But
who knows, I mean, somebody might come up and do something interesting, so,
you never know.

JJ:

Okay.
END OF VIDEO FILE

32

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The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. </text>
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                <text>RHC-65_Cruz_Primitivo</text>
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                <text>Primitivo Cruz video interview and transcript</text>
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                <text>Cruz, Primitivo</text>
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                <text>Primitivo Cruz is a Young Lord at heart who studied at DePaul University. He has researched and written several poems and papers on the Young Lords. Mr. Cruz performed several of his poems and songs at the Young Lords 40th Anniversary, celebrating the official founding of the Young Lords on September 23, 1968. Most of his work is political by nature, focusing on the Puerto Rican experience, the right to Puerto Rican self-determination, as well as the rights of new immigrants.</text>
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                <text>Jiménez, José, 1948-</text>
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                <text>Young Lords (Organization)</text>
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                <text>2012-03-27</text>
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                <text>Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives</text>
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                    <text>Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview Transcript
Russel Prince
Born: 1922 near Cadillac, MI.
WWII Veteran
United States Army, October 15, 1940 to January 1945
(Red Arrow) Division
Interviewed by: Jodi Moore and Joy Miedema, GVSU
Transcribed by: Joan Raymer June 22, 2007
Interviewer: “What was your family like? Did you have any brothers or sisters?”
Yes, I had 3 sisters and 1 brother.
Interviewer: “What types of activities were you involved in growing up?”
Baseball, football and swimming.
Interviewer: “Were you drafted or enlisted?”
I enlisted.
Interviewer: “Why did you enlist?”
I enlisted for the money and for the recreation – swimming and basketball.
Interviewer: “How old were you?”
I was 17.
Interviewer: “How did your family feel about your enlistment?”
They didn’t like it. 1:33
Interviewer: “What kinds of things were you required to do before you went to boot
camp? You mentioned there was a swimming pool, but did you have anything that you
had to do?”
Yes, we had training once a week and during the summer we were at Camp Grayling for
2 weeks every summer.
Interviewer: “What type of extra curricular activities did they have? You mentioned the
swimming pool.”
Up there, there were no extra activities it was all training.
Interviewer: “What were your reactions to being sent to boot camp?”
Well, we went in for a year and it didn’t bother us too much. We thought it would be
something different and like I said before, the money was very important because there
was no money around and we were under federal service for 1 year. 2:30 At the end of

1

�the year it was extended 6 months, but I was slated to go home on January the 1st of 1942,
but Pearl Harbor happened in December before I left, so I stayed in. I had to stay in.
Interviewer: “What did you think training in Louisiana was going to be like?”
Well, we trained for European warfare; it was training in different areas of Louisiana
compared to the territories we would be in, in Europe and the hardest part was the 6-week
maneuver we had, that was the hardest part. 3:25
Interviewer: “What did you do during that 6 week maneuver?”
Well, we ran an anti-tank company, we had our vehicles, we had 12 guns, which was
separated 4 guns to each battalion. It was very hard to communicate and to keep track of
your men and where they were.
Interviewer: “What was the weather like compared to what you were used to?”
Hot and humid.
Interviewer: “Were there any insects and mosquito problems?”
Mosquito, there was a great problem with ticks that we found down in the pine forest that
we were training in. That was basically the thing, Mosquitoes and Ticks.
Interviewer: “What was your favorite part of being in boot camp? Ok part?”
I don’t think there was anything special. It was something that we had to go through.
We were getting paid for it and the government wanted us to train for the European war.
It was continual hard training. 4:46
Interviewer: “Did you feel you were well prepared when you finished training in
Louisiana? Prepared to fight?”
Yea, I was fully prepared. We left Louisiana after Pearl Harbor and we went to
Massachusetts in January and we trained in winter warfare, combined the European
theater. We were sent from there to Fort Dix, which is the debarkation point going to
Europe. We stayed on the Pullman trains that we were on for 6 hours and they pulled
Pullmans next to us and we transferred trains and instead of going to Fort Dix, we were
headed west through the Pennsylvania mountains and we landed in California. 5:44 We
didn’t know what was going to happen from there on.
Interviewer: “Is that the first time you found out you weren’t going to Europe?”
Yes, when we woke up the next morning on the Pullmans, we were headed west. We
spent about 2 weeks in San Francisco and boarded ships to someplace; we didn’t know
where we were going.
Interviewer: “How would you describe the train ride across the country then?”
It was very interesting because for most of us, we were young, we were going through
states we had never seen and the terrain was altogether different and the people meeting
the trains in the stations were different, it was different and friendly. 6:37

2

�Interviewer: “Where there any specific stops that you remember because of something
people there had done?”
No, we stopped and I got off the train, went to a drug store and paid for whatever I
purchased and I got change in silver dollars. I had to run to catch the train with a pocket
of silver dollars, that’s one memorable spot.
Interviewer: “What was it like when you were waiting in California for your ship to
go?”
Well, we were right in San Francisco and we got passes every night to go out, it was
different and interesting because we had never been that far west and it was just a
different area altogether than what we had ever been in. 7:37
Interviewer: “How long did you wait in California?”
We were there about 2 weeks.
Interviewer: “What was the ship ride like over to Australia?”
The ship ride was very, very interesting. We were on a luxury liner and they had
carpenters along on the trip. They were putting plywood over all the fixtures in the ship,
all the important area in the dining room etc. so we wouldn’t destroy them. It was a 21day ride going across, we were supposed to land in northern Australia, but the Coral Sea
Battle was engaged and we had to detour to south Australia.
Interviewer: “did anyone get sea sick?” 8:36
Not that I know of.
Interviewer: “What were your first impressions of Australia when you got there?”
First impressions? It was a strange country. The language was a little different, the
people reacted different than we did to some things, they were more tense about the war
because the Japanese were in New Guinea and they thought that would be the landing
point for the Japanese to get to Australia. 9:18 They were more concerned about the war
than we were at the time.
Interviewer: “What type of training did you receive there?”
Again we received training with our guns, with our vehicles for anti-tank work, which we
were wondering about at the time, if it had ever been used, but we had to train in that
because that’s what we were brought over as.
Interviewer: “How was this training different than what you received in Louisiana?”
It was not too much different than that, it was typical training that you would get in any
part of the world I think, that you were in.
Interviewer: “What kind of activities did you participate in when you weren’t in
training?”
In south Australia, again it was strictly training, there were no activities, nothing that we
could do and we were on the base camp there. We did get off for a weekend or

3

�something to go to Adelaide, which was about 30 miles away, but other than that there
were no activities to work with. 10:40
Interviewer: “Was you unit flown or shipped to New Guinea?”
Shipped. We went from Adelaine down to Melbourne and to Brisbane. We were at
Brisbane about 2 months at Camp Gable where we disembarked for New Guinea.
Interviewer: “What were your first impressions of New Guinea?”
We were wondering what they were fighting there for. It was a hot climate, it was wet,
there was really nothing there. The place that we landed was Port Moresby, it was
supposed to be a good size town for New Guinea, but it was all bombed out and there
was no one living there. 11:37 We were sent to a cocoanut grove where we set up and
waited our orders. We spent about a week in that area when we got orders to go on the
Kokoda Trail over the mountains. They said it would be about a 30-day trip and we had
denims, blue denims, one set that we started out with; we carried ammunition and food
basically. We started out and we made 16 miles the first 10 days and from then on it got
a little harder and we spent 57 days in the mountains, running into the enemy and going
on. We went over the mountains and the map I had was dated 1916 and this was 1940 so
it was a hard trail to find on the 1916 map. 12:44
Interviewer: “Did you run into any wild animals or anything on the trail?”
No, we did not, that I could see.
Interviewer: “Did you have a lot of trouble with mosquitoes here like you did in
Louisiana or were they worse?”
The mosquitoes were worse and that’s where we, the majority of the troops got malaria
and we got it on that trip. I was bitten by a mosquito and I didn’t know why we were
running fevers, but we found out later on that it was through the mosquitoes.
Interviewer: “On the Kokoda Trail, did you track the days you were on the trail or did
you figure that out later?”
We figured it out later, from the time we left until the time we got up where, up at the
front lines where they had more data on what we were doing because we lost track of
time and practically sometimes where we were. 13:46 We were delayed different times
by Japanese patrols that were larger than the group that we had, so we just waited them
out at times. We got as far as Wairopi and we waited there about a week because we
estimated a 1,000 or over Japanese troops. We had 300 men and we weren’t going to
attack them. Finally the Australians came down from another trail with a larger unit.
They wiped the Japanese out, we went to Wairopi and that’s where I said they had a
bridge made out of cables and you walked on a single cable over a ravine. We went over
Wairopi and met the Australians who were headed for the Sanananda track. We joined
them and they branched off and we fought our way up to Sanananda and were put on the
front lines there. 14:48
Interviewer: “How did you push through not knowing what day it was? How did you
just keep going on with all the hard troubles?”

4

�Well, we didn’t pay too much attention. Our main, our greatest concern going over the
trail was the Japanese and as I said, when we left we carried ammunition, small arms and
all of our food ran out in about 3 days. The Air force kicked food out of the airplanes
without parachutes to us on the ground. They were supposed to have dropping areas, but
they never hit them. 15:32 We had to look for the food and ammunition. We kept going
over the mountains like that, having food dropped, most of the food was “bully” beef,
what the Australians call canned mutton. That was hard to eat after a few days. We did
find some food and ammunition going across where the food was dropped to us.
Interviewer: “Did you have any contact with the native people in New Guinea?”
Yes, we had contact with the natives going over the mountains. We would send letters, if
you wanted to call it that, notes to our parents and some guys their wives, with the natives
back to Port Moresby. Well, you never knew if they go there or not. 16:27 The closer
we got to the Japanese, the more we hesitated to use the natives in any way, because we
didn’t know if they were working for the Japanese or if they were friendly to us, so we
stayed clear of natives at that point.
Interviewer: “How would you describe the native people, were they a lot different than
what you would have expected?”
Yes they were, like I said, we didn’t see too many of them, but what we seen, they were a
little different than we expected. Some of them could speak a little English and some did
not.
Interviewer: “Did you have any special names that you called them or was it just the
native people?”
We would give them names. Any name that you would pick out, they would answer to it.
Interviewer: “You mentioned that you had contact with the Australians. What was that
like? The Australian forces so they come to relieve you?”
No, not at Wairopi, we met up with the Australians; they were on the opposite side of the
river, Kakuma River and they were battling the Japanese. They left the main force and
went in a different direction. We fought out way up the Sanananda Track to where the
American front lines were. 18:00
Interviewer: “What was your impression of the Australian forces?”
Well, they had more fight in them than we did because they had more contact with the
enemy and it was a great help to us, the way they fought, we learned a lot because we did
not learn too much going across the mountains because we were not that close to the
enemy at any one time. We knew they were ahead of us.
Interviewer: “How would you describe any of the leaders you had, the people above
you?”
Well, the leaders at that time, I would complement them very good. The equipment we
had, the information we had, we didn’t get information, the radios didn’t work, they tried
to drop information as they kicked the supplies out of the airplanes, but some of it we
never found. So, we were going more or less blind over the track and day-by-day by

5

�what we found and what we heard and how we operated on the information we could get
ourselves. 19:17
Interviewer: “What was your impression of MacArthur?”
I probably shouldn’t say this, but it wasn’t very good—very low.
Interviewer: “What did you think you were fighting for the whole time in New
Guinea?”
Well, we were under the impression that if we stopped the Japanese, in New Guinea,
from going to Australia, it was basically over, but that was untrue. We found that out
later on. That’s what we were sent there for is-- the thought was that the Japanese were
going to Port Moresby, that’s where we were, and that was a jump off point to get to
Australia. That’s what we thought we were there for. 20:11
Interviewer: “What kind of weapons did you use?”
Well, over the mountains we used small arms, pistols, and rifles, BAR rifles that’s a rifle
that can fire quite a few rounds at once. It is a heavy gun and we had a few Tommy
Guns.
Interviewer: “What was the scariest part of the battles for you?”
All of it, all of it. As I said, we reached the front lines and we were put on the front line,
left front and there was a mixture of troops. Anti tank was the only full company and the
rest were a mixture. We were there for 2 days and the morning of the 30th I think, of
November, they laid down a barrage of mortar artillery and the whole front line was
supposed to attack the Japanese. The right front, the center and the left, we were on the
left and we broke through. The only company on the front at the Sanananda Track.
21:32
Interviewer: “Did you feel any emotion when your company was the only one to break
through? Any sense of success?”
No, we didn’t know, communications in the jungle at that time, there were no radios
actually and communications was speaking to the man next to you and if you lost contact
with him, you were lost yourself. So you had to keep men on both sides of you. We hit
the Kunine grass and we started across, it’s a grass that runs anywhere from 2 feet to 5or
6 feet tall and it’s sharp, it hurts. We got about 1,000 yards into that when the Japanese
stopped us. We fought and reached the swamp, we fought our way through the swamp
and we got to the Sanananda track again to higher ground and it was a Japanese bivwak
area and we took that over and we spent the night there, or tried to. 22:40 It was counter
attack all night.
Interviewer: “Did you ever get a good nights sleep while fighting?”
No, there were attacks day and night. We cut off their supplies and they wanted that road
back.
Interviewer: “In a few hours could you make yourself fall asleep? Were you so tired?”

6

�Well, you did get some sleep—very little. We were in a perimeter, maybe 150 yards
wide across the road and a couple hundred yards deep. We had that as a perimeter that
we were protecting on the roadblock. We reached there and through counter attack after
counter attack we got low on ammunition. Patrols tried to break through. They couldn’t
and we lost contact with the main units behind us because our radio got wet and quit
working. 23:50 We had 1 radio and a heavy radio at the time. A man had to carry it on
his back and that got wet so we couldn’t use it. We were actually lost; they didn’t know
where we were. They ran patrols until they finally found out where 1 section was and
they ran a patrol that broke through with radio, food and more ammunition because we
were down to nothing. With the radio, we got back in contact with headquarters anti
artillery and we give the artillery points to shoot at and they finally pinpointed our
position, so they knew where they could use their artillery against the enemy because
they didn’t use it before, not knowing where we were. 24:42
Interviewer: “How did you feel and the group feel as a consensus, when you knew you
were lost?”
Well, we were wondering what we were doing up there absolutely lost. We had no idea
what was going to happen, we were low on ammunition; the orders went through to use
your ammunition any way you wanted to. If the patrol hadn’t come through when it did,
we probably would have had to use that last ammunition.
Interviewer: “While fighting, did you at any time lighten your packs? Just drop things
that you thought you didn’t need?”
Well, when we started over the trail, we carried a shelter half plus part of another
uniform. Going over the trail, we got rid of the shelter half, we got rid of anything we
didn’t need except the food and ammunition. 25:53 That was basically what we carried.
Interviewer: “Did you regret leaving anything behind?
No, the only thing I regret is we started out, we were supposed to get them when we had
reached the other side of the mountain, we did not have helmets. When we reached the
front lines, we still did not have helmets, when we got in the lost company or the
roadblock, we still did not have helmets. You probably see the helmets on today’s news,
ours were a lot different, but we went in without tin helmets, is what we called them.
There were a lot of head wounds due to that. 26:39 The Japanese around us had
advantage, they knew the territory, they would get up in the trees, camouflage themselves
and the majority of our men who were wounded or killed, were head injuries because we
didn’t have helmets. The Japanese could pick us off whenever they wanted to. They
were more or less after leaders all the time. Captain Shirley happened to be the Captain
in charge of the unit at the roadblock. He sent Captain Keith and Lieutenant Daniels on
and out trying to find a way out and they both got killed with a patrol. Captain Shirley
got killed, Lieutenant Huggins took over command and he later got a head injury.
Lieutenant LaPonte broke through with a patrol and a radio and food and ammunition.
He stayed, the oldest officer in grade, so he took charge of the unit. 27:58
Interviewer: “Did the officers then wear their insignia on their uniform?”

7

�No they did not, but the Japanese, as I said, knew everything we did. They know that
patrol is going to go out at the south end of the roadblock and they attacked them. They
knew the higher echelon in our command in the roadblock, from officers, Captains,
Lieutenants, Sergeants and Corporals. They knew them all, but we didn’t have insignias
to tell who was giving the orders. 28:38
Interviewer: “Were you afraid of the Japanese snipers?”
Yes. We were afraid of the Japanese snipers, we were afraid of the Japanese artillery
because we had more people wounded and killed with tree top explosions rather than
direct, from the shrapnel that would hit the ground.
Interviewer: “How did you deal with fighting while you had malaria?”
Well, we knew we had to keep going. We couldn’t get out of the roadblock. There was
absolutely no way to get out. We had to keep going or give up and we didn’t want to do
that. So we fought with high temperatures. 29:28
Interviewer: “How did the men in your unit deal with everybody around them dying?”
Well, it was very hard because your friends, your buddies, we had to bury them up there
in very shallow graves because if you went down deep you were in water. It was a very
hard thing to do. 29:50
Interviewer: “How would you describe the Japanese style of fighting? The Japanese in
general, how would you describe them?”
Well, they did some foolish things, they attacked at the wrong times, they were, from
what we understood later on, probably worse off than we were for food and ammunition
because we had cut their supplies. There was a large force that we, surrounding us, said
at one time was close to 4,000. I can’t believe it, that 4,000 wouldn’t overrun 300, but
that was the estimate. They had very little food. They were running low on supplies too,
so they wanted that roadblock and they were trying to get it. 30:42
Interviewer: “Did you ever feel sympathy for the enemy?”
No.
Interviewer: “You mentioned before malaria, what other types of diseases did people
get?”
Dysentery, different bites that would cause problems, different insects that would get into
your clothing and into your skin.
Interviewer: “What type of medical aid was available?”
None.
Interviewer: “How did the men deal with not being able to receive aid? Did they have
first aid kits?”

8

�We had these small first aid kits that we carried, but we ran out of them. We did what we
could for them, but there was no way to get them out of there. There was nothing much
we could do except comfort them if we could. 31:47
Interviewer: “What kinds of injuries would get men moved away from the front lines or
sent home?”
Well, in the roadblock there wasn’t relief. You stayed; there was no way to get back,
absolutely no way to get back out. We were not in condition to fight our way back. We
were just doing our best to hold our spot we had, hoping somebody could get to us, which
after 22 days—at one time the Americans asked the Australian commander to take over
the roadblock. He tried, but he couldn’t get there, but after 22 days in the roadblock, the
Australians broke through and relieved us and the trail they used to get through, they
guarded it while we were going out, so we could walk out, we had to carry a lot of people
out, but those that could walk, walked and those that could walk good enough to help
other ones, we managed to get out. We were up there 22 or 23 days. 32:53
Interviewer: “What kind of contact did you have with people back home? Did you
receive letters while you were there?”
No. No contact at all. Not like today where you can pick up a cell phone and call. If we
wrote a letter it had to go back by ship and that took a month from the time we wrote it
until it was delivered in Grand Rapids, it took about a month.
Interviewer: “Do you know if family members ever got any of your letters or did all of
them get lost?”
No, they got some of them.
Interviewer: “What kinds of things did men write home about usually?”
Well, being single it was hard to write. You tried to write what you—you couldn’t say
where you were, you couldn’t say what you were doing, just that you still had your
health. 33:48
Interviewer: “Were there any signs that the war was coming to an end?”
None whatsoever, no. As I said, we got out of the front lines, we had a days rest,
couldn’t clean up, couldn’t put on clean uniforms, they were not available so your
wearing the same uniform from September through practically New Years. We were on
the front lines at Christmas, we celebrated Christmas on the front lines and at that time, I
can’t tell you when because my memory is gone. If you had a temperature of 104° you
stayed at the front. If you had a temperature of 105° you went back to the First Aid
Station. 34:39 Somebody, I don’t know who it was, I can’t tell you, got me back to the
First Aid Station and the next thing I knew, I was on a plane flying back over the
mountains. It took us 57 days going across and it took 45 minutes flying back. I got to
the hospital, I spent New Years there, I don’t remember it, and I spent about 3 weeks in
the hospital. They couldn’t break my temperature. 35:10
Interviewer: “Where was the hospital located?”
At Port Moresby.

9

�Interviewer: “What was it like there during your stay?”
As I said, I don’t remember too much of it until they broke my temperature and they
explained it. I had for some reason or other, the longest temperature, the longest time
temperature wise that they had ever seen and I was treated pretty good in the hospital
until I was fit to take a ship and go back to Australia. 35:43 So, consequently being in
the hospital, in New Guinea, my troop was relieved and went back to Australia while I
was in the hospital. They gave me more combat time than they had. It wasn’t combat,
but it was in the zone.
Interviewer: “What were you feeling about returning home?”
Well, we didn’t even think about it at the time. I got back to Australia, I was sent to, I
forget the name of the camp, but I was sent there for R&amp;R, that’s the first time I ever
heard of that and I had 2 weeks of it. I was transferred back to the anti tank at Brisbane at
Camp Cable and again we had trucks and anti tank guns which we trained with again. It
was foolish, but we did. 36:41
Interviewer: “What did you on R&amp;R?”
Not much, just relaxed, it was a small town and we went in there every night and had a
meal, but you weren’t required to do anything except get up in the morning and report.
Interviewer: “Once you were back in Australia, waiting to go back home, what types of
things did you do?”
Wait to go back home? I didn’t wait to go back home, we went back into training, we got
replacements, we had to train them, which took about 3 months, then we went back to
Milne Bay in New Guinea. We trained them in jungle warfare and we had anti tank guns
and trucks and nobody knew why we had to train with them. We left there and we got
aboard ship and we went out and didn’t know where we were going. We made a beach
landing; we were one of the first beach landings at Saidor New Guinea and we were
supposed to cut the Japanese off there. We went ashore, we had very little opposition and
one of my details was to get ahead of the anti tank company and find positions for our
guns, which I did and no tanks, no Japanese, but we found the Japanese about 3,000 yards
out on the other side of a mountain range, the Owen Stanley Range. 38:29 So, our
orders were to stay where we were and if the Japanese come on our side, we were to
engage them, so we stayed at Saidor. We had a few encounters with the Japanese, but
very few.
Interviewer: “How did you feel when you were fighting with the replacements? Was it
different than fighting with the men you had been with for so long?”
Well, not much different, but you were a little leery about how they would act under fire
and so on. There were very few times you really had to worry about it at Saidor. It was
at Saidor where I was called in and said I was going to go home and I said, “why? Well,
you’re number one in the regiment, the 126th regiment. I said, “how could I be number
one?” Well, I had those extra days in the hospital in a combat zone, so I was sent home.
39:30 I was not sent home, I was sent to Goodenough Island and Goodenough Island
was a mixture of troops, there was really nothing going on there except the R&amp;R again.

10

�It was a long narrow island. It was 3 miles wide and 18 miles long. It was peaceful
during the day. At night the Japanese Navy tried to sink that island, I thought, from the
amount of bombs they dropped on it. I stayed at Goodenough Island for 3 weeks and got
aboard a ship and went home.
Interviewer: “How long did it take you to get home?”
Going home it took us a little over 2 weeks. Going over it took us 21 days because we
were in a large convoy going over and there was a lot of zigzagging, trying to stay away
from the Japanese Navy and the submarines basically. On the way home we did some
zigzagging when we left Goodenough Island, but further out we went fairly straight so it
took less time going home that it did going over. 40:55
Interviewer: “What were you looking forward to doing at home?”
I got home; I had no idea what was going to happen. In California I got transportation
home, I got a 21 day leave, I had 7 copies of that leave, cigarettes were rationed, gasoline
was rationed, everything was rationed, you had to have something. I went down to the
board several times, I transferred the top copy that they stamp to the bottom, so I got
gasoline 7 different times, I got my dad plenty of cigarettes, But it was not supposed to be
done that way. 41:47
Interviewer: “When you got back to Grand Rapids, who was at the train station to meet
you?”
No one, they didn’t know when we was coming; we didn’t know when we were coming
in. It was a surprise, we did send wires from California, but we had no idea when we
would get there, not with transportation the way it was and the troop trains had to
sidetrack for other trains, so we had no idea when we would get to Grand Rapids. It was
more or less a surprise.
Interviewer: “What was the first thing you did once you got home?”
Well, I met my mother at the door, my father was working, she called him and got him
home and I had a very good homecoming and some very good meals. 42:36
Interviewer: “How had Grand Rapids changed since you had left?”
It hadn’t that I could see. The only thing different that I could see was there were a lot of
soldiers in town and I couldn’t figure that out. There was Navy, there were soldiers and
they were stationed at the Pantlind Hotel, which is now the Amway Grand Plaza Hotel,
and they were in the weather school there. They had a big weather school for all troops
for all services in Grand Rapids at the old Kent County Airport. That was the big
difference. 43:18
Interviewer: “Did you feel different at all coming home and seeing the people who were
fighting at the home front as opposed to where you were?”
No, not too much. I knew what it was sort of, from the Australians and the news and
letters, I did get some and they explained it all. The rationing they were under, how they
had to live, it wasn’t peaceful, it wasn’t luxury at that time, it was very hard. You had to
have a ration point for everything you bought—meat, butter, most of the groceries were

11

�under ration points, gasoline was rationed, shoes were rationed, I don’t remember how I
bought a pair of shoes, but I bought a pair of shoes, I had no ration stamp, but I bought a
pair, I don’t remember how I got them.
Interviewer: “So after you were done with the military, what did you do next?”
Well, when I got home I didn’t get out. My orders were to go to Alabama; I forget the
name of the camp. Camp McCoy, Alabama and I spent close to a year there as an
instructor of the infantry, which I was not very knowledgeable about except for what I
learned in the jungles, but I had to teach infantry tactics and all I knew, was anti tank. It
was rather hard for me down there. 44:58 Training new inductees and training them
right—we had problems because the officers in these training schools were all over age
officers, they were too old to go overseas, so the only thing they could teach was by the
book and they expected us to, so we got in trouble with the officers quite a bit because we
didn’t agree with the training that they were getting down in Alabama. That was the
hardest part. 45:35
Interviewer: “did you go right into having your own business or did you go to college
after you got out?”
I went to college I went to Ferris.
Interviewer: “Did you use the G.I. Bill for that?”
Yes.
Interviewer: “When did you get married?”
1946, August of “46”
Interviewer: “Did you know your future wife while you were in the military?”
No, before I went to Ferris, I had to wait and I got a job, it was on Pearl Street,
Adressagraph Multigraph, that was the forerunners of computers. I met my wife there;
she worked there for a while after graduating from high school.
Interviewer: “Did you join any men’s clubs for veterans?”
No, I did join the American Legion after I got out of college, after I started working and I
don’t know if it is my nature or what it was, but after the meetings all they wanted to do
was talk about the war and I didn’t like that, so I sort of dropped out. 47:10 Every time
you would meet them, that’s all they wanted to talk about. It was a hard thing to talk
about. I don’t know what they got out of it, what they were trying to rehash I have no
idea. I have never talked about it.
Interviewer: “Have you gone back to Australia?”
Yes. In my mind I had decided I was going to take my wife to Australia for our 50th
wedding anniversary and I started looking at trips long before that and I found one a year
before the anniversary and we took it, we went back to Australia. From there we went to
New Zealand, which I had never seen and enjoyed. Australia to me, it had changed, it
meant very little, I thought it would be more, but Australia is just like going to New York
or anything along the east coast. Australia is all built on the east coast, you go around
and you hit probably where Alabama is, is Adelaide, Australia, you take a train across the

12

�desert to Perth, it’s all outback as they say. To me Australia had changed, Sydney had
changed because it had been built up more, the same as Grand Rapids. It was nice to see
it, but I didn’t get what I thought I would out of it, but that’s why I enjoyed New Zeeland.
49:07
Interviewer: “Would you ever go back to New Guinea?”
No, I have had friends--there’s a fellow in Holland that has been back twice, now what
they get out of it—they went up on the Sanananda track and went through it again and
I’m just not interested in that. He’s been back twice.
Interviewer: “When you got out of the military, what was your final rank?”
Staff Sergeant, I had a field appointment as a Lieutenant, but I was in a different—no, I
was with anti tank at the time and I was offered a field commission, that’s without going
to OCS school. 50:06 I found out that if I took that commission I would go to the 41st
Division and I would be way down at the bottom of the totem pole for points to get back
home so, I refused it. Lucky that I did because within 6 months I was on my way home.
Interviewer: “When men received a higher rank, how was that usually done? Was it
done on the spot or was there something they had to fill out, like paperwork?”
Field appointments on the front lines were done on the spot. If you appointed for a field
appointment it would take a week or 2. It went back to headquarters and I don’t know
what they hashed out, but they did and they decided if you should have it or not. 51:00
Interviewer: “I think that’s about it and all the questions we have and “thank you”.”
Thank you very much for having me.

13

�</text>
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                  <text>The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.</text>
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                  <text>1914-</text>
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                  <text>Smither, James&#13;
Boring, Frank</text>
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                <text>Prince, Russel (Interview transcript and video), 2007</text>
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                <text>Russel Prince enlisted in the Michigan National Guard in 1940 and served in the anti-tank company of the 126th Infantry Regiment, 32nd (Red Arrow) Division until 1944, when he was sent back to the US to help train new recruits in Alabama, finally mustering out in January 1945.  He provides a clear and detailed account of his unit's transfers first to the East Coast and then back across the country to ship out to Australia and New Guinea.  His company was shipped to Port Moresby, New Guinea, in November, 1942, and spent nearly two months crossing the Owen Stanley Mountains to join in the attack on Buna.  His company broke through Japanese lines early on, and then was isolated for three weeks before it was finally relieved.  He discusses the difficulties of fighting in a jungle and of the action at Buna.  This interview is featured in the documentary "Nightmare in New Guinea" produced by Grand Valley State University.</text>
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              <elementText elementTextId="1031468">
                <text>Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives</text>
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                    <text>Prins Bernhard heeft gisteren op paleis Soestdijk bij wijze van v e ~
uitgereikt gekregen. W. van Lanschot, voorzitter van het Nationaal Comi · ,·,·a,retsll;JS'ê~::kingskruizen, speldde hem de onderscheiding op tijdens een informe e ontTimJ:r.st.
Soestdijk. Prins Bernhard was zichtbaar geëmotioneerd door de ondersciheidin.g
prinses Juliana kon haar ontroering nauwelijks de baas.

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                  <text>Adriana B. and Peter N. Termaat collection</text>
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                  <text>Collection contains genealogical, personal, and family papers and photographs documenting the lives and interests of Adriana and Peter Termaat. The bulk of the materials are related to family history and genealogical research carried out by the Termaats, including research notes and materials about places in the Netherlands that were significant to the Termaat and Schuurman families, such as the city of Alkmaar.&#13;
&#13;
Other materials in the collection are related to the Termaats' experiences on the eve of and during the Second World War, especially the German occupation of the Netherlands and the Termaats' participation in organized resistance to the Nazis. Also included are materials that document the family's post-war life in the United States, including their public efforts to recognize, commemorate, and honor people and events significant to World War II.</text>
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                    <text>Grand Valley State University
Veterans' History Project
Bob Prins
Vietnam War
1 hour 20 minutes 2 seconds
(00:00:40) Early Life
-Born in Holland, Michigan on April 10, 1948
-Attended Hamilton High School
-Oldest of seven children
-Father worked in the shoe factory in Holland until 1962
-After that he worked as a plumber
-Mother worked for Heinz in Holland once all the children were in school
-Graduated from high school in 1966
-Took some night classes and worked after high school
(00:01:37) Getting Drafted
-Got a notice for his draft physical
-Had been paying attention to the Vietnam War and the draft
-Tried to enlist in the National Guard, but got drafted before getting into the National Guard
-Engaged with plans to get married in May 1968
-Reported for draft physical on March 13 or 14, 1968
-Took a bus to Detroit for his physical exam
-All of the men talked about going to Canada
-He didn't want to leave his family or his country
-Eye exams, foot exams (flat feet disqualified service), hearing tests, and spine exams
(00:03:38) Basic Training
-Sent to Fort Knox, Kentucky for basic training
-Basic training lasted eight weeks
-Drill sergeants yelled at the recruits to make them tough
-A lot of physical training
-Running and push ups
-Shot the M-14 rifle on the rifle range
-Did well with that, but did not use that rifle in Vietnam
-Tested well in electronics
-Encouraged to add another year to his service so he could go into electronics
-He declined
-The men that added the year became radio operators in Vietnam
-Radio operators were a prime target
-He was in good shape when he went into basic training
-If you didn't listen to the drill sergeants you were disciplined with extra exercise
-Didn't know what to expect being in the Army
-19 years old when he started basic training and had his 20th birthday during basic training
-Since he was older (in his family), and he knew how to follow orders
-Still a different and difficult experience being away from his family
-Some of the recruits were recycled
-Trained with men from Kentucky, Tennessee, and some men from Michigan
(00:08:09) Advanced Infantry Training
-Sent to Fort Polk, Louisiana for advanced infantry training

�-Base was nicknamed “Little Vietnam”
-Hot, humid, and rainy
-Similar to basic training, but more intense
-Trained with the M-16 rifle, M-60 machine gun, grenades, and Claymore mines
-Did extended field exercises
-Stayed overnight in the field
-Went on runs carrying rifle and a weighted down backpack
-Remembers alligators living in the area around Fort Polk
-Career soldiers and Vietnam veterans trained them
-Sergeants that were black and white
-Advanced infantry training lasted eight weeks
(00:11:28) Deployment to Vietnam
-Received one month of leave before deploying to Vietnam
-Had gotten married while he was in advanced infantry training
-When he left for Vietnam he was still newly married and his wife was pregnant
-Unsure if he would come back alive
-A lot for a 20 year old to emotionally process
-Flew from Grand Rapids, Michigan to Oakland Replacement Depot, California
-Flew to Vietnam on a chartered commercial plane
-Briefly stopped in Guam to refuel
(00:14:07) Arrival in South Vietnam
-Landed at Tan Son Nhut Air Base
-Had to circle the base before landing because a sniper was shooting at the plane
-So hot and humid that he could hardly breathe
-Arrived in South Vietnam during the day
-Checked in and received a week of of intense, in-country training
-Crawled through the jungle at night scattered with simulated booby traps
-Trained by men that had experienced fighting in Vietnam
-Received assignment to the Phu Bai/Hue area in the 101st Airborne Division
-The week of training taught him about booby traps, mines, maneuvering in the jungle, and survival
-At night the base got attacked
-Heard mortars and small arms fire
-Got low to the floor of the living quarters and stayed close to the sandbags
-Didn't sleep well
(00:18:17) Joining Charlie Company
-Assigned to 3rd Platoon of Charlie Company of 1st Battalion/327th Infantry Regiment/101st Airborne
-Went to a base camp between Hue and Phu Bai
-Basic living conditions at the base with sandbags around the base structures
-Went to a processing center to receive more equipment
-He was considered a “cherry,” nickname given to soldiers that had not experienced combat
-Remembers one sergeant at the base telling him what to expect in Vietnam
-Spent a few days at the base waiting for a helicopter to take him to the field
-Flew out on a resupply helicopter to join Charlie Company in the field
-At the time they were operating in the mountains
-Landing zone was quiet when he landed
-Slept in the field
-Learned as he went
-Told to stay 15 feet away from each soldier
-Thought he saw North Vietnamese and Viet Cong soldiers everywhere

�-Everyone was afraid, but didn't show it
-Went into the field in August or September 1968
(00:23:09) Enemy Contact Pt. 1
-The North Vietnamese and the Viet Cong had the element of surprise
-U.S. forces had greater numbers and more firepower
-Vietnamese forces did hit-and-run style attacks
-Wounded or killed a few soldiers then ran away
-If they took fire they would figure out where the fire came from then attacked fire with full force
-Set up ambushes in villages at night
-Remembers at one village the Viet Cong tried to raid the villages for supplies
-Firefight ensued
(00:24:46) Encounters with Civilians Pt. 1
-When they patrolled villages or bridges on Highway 1 they encountered Vietnamese civilians
-No civilians on the fire bases
-No civilians in the jungle
(00:25:22) Downtime Pt. 1
-Returned to a base for a stand down
-A couple days to rest and relax before going back into the field
(00:25:33) Unit Strength
-Operated as individual platoons in the field, but stayed close to other platoons in the company
-Providing support and getting support if necessary
-Platoon strength was about three or four squads which amounted to 24 to 30 men
-Three platoons in Charlie Company
-Strength varied if men were wounded, killed, or rotated out at the end of their tour
-Sometimes had more men, sometimes had less
(00:26:33) Duty in Charlie Company
-Carried the M60 machine gun, or carried M-16 rifle
-Never walked point (leading the unit) or volunteered for risky patrols in the day
-Wanted to serve his country without being reckless
-Volunteered to carry the M60 machine gun
-Carried it for eight or nine month of his twelve month tour
-Swapped back and forth with assistant machine gunner on carrying the gun
(00:28:24) Supplies
-Had a six day supply of C Rations which weighed 10 to 12 pounds
-Carried eight quarts of water which weighed 16 pounds
-Carried a large ammo can to keep his personal items dry, 10+ pounds
-200-300 rounds of ammunition
-M60 machine gun (25 pounds) and 100 rounds in the gun (7 pounds)
-All toll he carried over 100 pounds of equipment
-Sometimes someone had to pull him up when he sat down
(00:29:37) Living in the Jungle Pt. 1
-Set up camp at night on a high point and established a perimeter around the camp
-If it was during the monsoon they used ponchos to make tents and dug a trench to divert water
-Slept in clothes and sat on a piece of plastic to stay dry
-Got resupplied every six days
-Receive mail and send out mail
-Get more food and water, a change of clothes, and new socks
(00:30:55) Relationship with Officers and Soldiers in Unit
-Didn't see much of the captain

�-Platoon leaders had the rank of 1st Lieutenant or 2nd Lieutenant
-Men with rank and experience served as squad leaders
-Saw each other as brothers and they still feel like that forty years after the war
-Supported each other
(00:31:57) Contact with Home
-Took six weeks to receive word that he was a father
-Red Cross couldn't find him
-Got a huge stack of letters and photographs of his baby boy
-Limited means of personal communication
(00:32:46) Leadership
-Arrogant sergeants didn't listen to the combat veterans
-They were “book smart,” but had no practical experience
-The men under those sergeants refused to listen to those sergeants
-The good sergeants listened to the men under their command
-Took a month or two for new sergeants to gain the confidence of the men
-First lieutenant was killed in action
-Leadership rotated due to men getting wounded, killed, or rotated out of the field
-First lieutenant had been in the country for less than six months before getting killed
-Second lieutenant was in command for the rest of Bob's tour in Vietnam
(00:35:32) Casualties
-Worst casualties the unit took were in the A Shau Valley
-Fortunately, he didn't have to go there because he was in the rear with an abscessed tooth
-One unit in the 101st Airborne Division was entirely wiped out in the A Shau Valley
(00:36:52) Encounters with Civilians Pt. 2
-Relaxed duty guarding bridges
-Walked the bridges for two hours then stayed in a bunker writing letters and cooling down
-One way traffic going across the bridge
-Civilians driving old cars or riding in buses
-Military police searched the vehicles and the civilians
-Spent three weeks to one month guarding the bridge
-Vietnamese children stayed near bottom of the bridge
-Soldiers dropped grenades in water to kill fish and the children collected the fish
-In villages they interacted with civilians
-During ambushes they learned that some of the civilians were part of the Viet Cong
-Didn't know where the civilians' loyalties lied
-After the war he did some plumbing work for a Vietnamese immigrant family sponsored by his church
-Still associated them with the enemy
-Has since gotten beyond that mindset
-Had to be suspicious of all non-Americans
(00:40:52) Prostitution, Drugs, &amp; Race Relations
-Prostitution and drugs were prevalent in populated areas
-Never partook in prostitution because he was married
-Remembers one soldier found out he was a father, and he bought a prostitute to celebrate
-Smoked a little marijuana when he was on a firebase
-Didn't make it a habit because it was too dangerous to be high in a combat zone
-Didn't go to sleep if he knew one of the men on guard duty was high
-Men got marijuana when helicopters resupplied the unit
-Drug use was more of a problem among the black soldiers in the unit
-Didn't confront them about it because it wouldn't have accomplished anything

�-There were five or seven black soldiers in his platoon
-There were a couple Hispanic soldiers in his platoon and they were good men
-Trusted only one black, possibly gay, soldier in his platoon to do his job
(00:44:39) Living in the Jungle Pt. 2
-Set up perimeters when they established camp at night
-Some nights it was pitch black
-Could swear he saw movement in the jungle beyond the perimeter
-Remembers one soldier shot a villager's water buffalo mistaking it for an enemy soldier
-Cost the American soldier $100
(00:46:02) Animals &amp; Insects
-Never saw any rats, monkeys, or tigers
-There were a lot of leeches
-Went up to a firebase in the mountains to help shut it down
-Got stranded because clouds and rains rolled in
-Base flooded and caused worms and centipedes to come to the surface
-Some were two to three feet in length
-Remembers there were cockroaches two to three inches long
-Slept on top of bunkers to avoid sleeping in cockroach infested bunkers
(00:47:58) Rear Duty
-Did kitchen patrol duty when he was in the rear getting his teeth work done
-Had hot meals for a month
-Placed on waste detail burning human waste in 55 gallon drums
-Most likely at Camp Eagle
(00:49:12) R&amp;R and Downtime Pt. 2
-Received an R&amp;R in Hawaii
-Got to see his wife for six days
-Incredibly difficult to go back to Vietnam after the vacation with his wife
-Wife came with another wife from Zeeland, Michigan (town near Holland)
-Considered going AWOL
-Nowhere to run on the island and it would have followed him
-Received his R&amp;R halfway through his tour
-Received a three day leave
-Could have gone to Singapore, but he decided to stay at the base
-Went to Eagle Beach or China Beach with his platoon for the day
-Had burgers and steaks and went swimming off the coast of Vietnam
(00:51:49) Enemy Contact Pt. 2
-Sometimes weeks passed without enemy contact
-In one village an RPG hit the man next to him
-He had been a good friend, a husband, and a father
-As the machine gunner, he and the radio operator were primary targets
-When the man next to him got hit by the RPG, Bob fired the M60 so much it turned orange hot
-The man's wife wrote to Bob to ask how her husband had died
-He wrote her, and then never heard from her again
(00:54:24) PTSD Pt. 1
-Tried to put his experiences behind him after the war when he went back to work
-Coworkers didn't ask him about the war
-He sensed that they feared he would snap someday on the job
(00:54:46) Reflections on the War
-Went only because his country asked him to go

�-Disagreed with the war
-Felt it was a war that wasn't being fought as a war
-United States didn't accomplish what it wanted to accomplish
-Had to ask permission to return fire because of so called “cease fires”
-Americans had to fight by the Rules of Engagement which limited ability to fight
-Vietnamese ignored the Rules of Engagement
-Had ceasefires for different reasons, and the Americans had to honor the ceasefires
-North Vietnamese and Viet Cong rarely, if ever, did
(00:56:51) Friendly Fire
-In the village of Phu Loc and they went out too late to set up an ambush point near the village
-Marines came up to the village and didn't know the Army was already there
-Marines opened fire on the soldiers and the man in front of Bob got wounded
-He ultimately spent 18 months in the hospital
-Didn't know until long after the war that the man had survived
(00:58:36) End of Tour Pt. 1
-Near the end of his tour he didn't volunteer for anything
-Wanted to go home alive and intact
(00:58:59) Treatment of Vietnam Veterans Pt. 1
-Feels that the men who have names on the Vietnam Memorial are the real heroes
-Has received letters from students telling him that they see him and other Vietnam veterans as heroes
-A lot of the men were just trying to do their duty and serve their country
-Knew one man who served with Strategic Air Command
-Helped plan bombing missions against Vietnamese forces
-Protestors egged his car and called him “baby killer”
-Had PTSD due to the harassment and knowing he helped kill so many people
-Bob helped the man get counseling and benefits from the VA
(01:02:13) End of Tour Pt. 2 &amp; Coming Home Pt. 1
-In the field until the end of his tour in Vietnam
-Counted the remaining days
-Considered “short” when he had less than a month left of his tour
-Got a ride on a resupply helicopter back to the base camp
-Did paperwork
-Took a C-130 from the base camp to a larger airbase to get a chartered commercial plane home
-In less than two days of travel he was in Grand Rapids, Michigan
-Remembers the pilot saying that they had entered American airspace
-The men cheered
-Advised to ignore protestors
-No preparation to transfer back to civilian life
-Offered a steak dinner courtesy of the Army when he landed in California, but he declined
-Remembers men kissing the ground when they got off the plane
(01:04:30) Treatment of Vietnam Veterans Pt. 2
-Protestors yelled insults at the veterans as they got off the plane
-When he was waiting in the airport to go home he felt invisible
-People didn't insult him, but they just walked by
-Government and society didn't care about the soldiers returning from Vietnam
(01:05:37) End of Service Pt. 1
-Army wanted him to join the National Guard, but he refused
-Asked where he wanted to spend his last five months in the Army
-He requested somewhere close to Michigan

�-He received orders for Fort Lewis, Washington
-Spent his last five months at Fort Lewis in an armor unit
-Painted tanks and drove them around
-The men stashed wine everywhere
-Feels that had he stayed in the Army he would have become an alcoholic
(01:06:22) Coming Home Pt. 2
-Landed in Grand Rapids, Michigan after coming home from Vietnam
-Greeted by his family, his wife, and his 11 month old son
-Parents put up a sign over their driveway that read, “Welcome Home Bob!”
(01:07:34) End of Service Pt. 2
-Wife and son went to Fort Lewis with him
-They drove out together
-He reported to Fort Lewis a day late, but it didn't matter
-Drove back to Michigan at the end of his time at Fort Lewis
-Lived off the base with his wife and child
-Paid $300 a month
-Rent was $110 a month
-Had to report at 5 AM for roll call and breakfast
-He got sick of it, so he paid another soldier to say, “Here,” when Bob's name was called
-Bob got caught after a little while
-Threatened with restriction to base and demotion to the rank of private
-Bob defended himself and his decision and the officer relented
(01:09:43) Life after Service
-Went back to old job and a month later he got laid off
-Got a plumbing job through his father
-In November 1970 he and his father started a plumbing business
-Still does plumbing work part time as of 2016
(01�:10:25) PTSD Pt. 2
-Had nightmares and flashbacks 25 or 30 years after he got home
-Went to Battle Creek, Michigan, to talk to a VA psychologist
-Psychologist advised him to talk about the war and recognize that he had survivor's guilt
-PTSD has improved and he feels better talking about his experiences
-Talks about his time in Vietnam at high schools
(01�:12:58) Reunions
-Has reunions with seven other men from his unit
-Tenth reunion in 2016
-At first, he declined invitations to the reunions
-Assistant machine gunner called the other men and got the reunion going
-The daughter of one of the men killed in action attends some of the reunions
-Meet at each other's houses all over the country
-He was the last of the group to agree to go to reunions
-Hadn't seen any of the men in 40 years
-Didn't recognize one man
-The wives of the men have gotten closer over the years
(01:17:25) PTSD Pt. 3
-He had three sons and because of military service he always had high expectations for them
-Sometimes unrealistically high expectations, or not offering them support
(01:18:37) Reflections on Service
-Taught him to have respect for his country

�-Feels that everyone ought to do three to six months of military service
-It would teach them discipline and respect
(01:19:18) PTSD Pt. 4
-Wife is a tough woman, but there were times when she almost left him
-Marriage has improved since he started talking about his experiences

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&#13;
Douglas R. Gilbert (b. 1942) is an American photographer from Michigan. He was born in Holland, Michigan and is the son of Russell W. and Carmen (Andree) Gilbert. Gilbert earned a B.A. in social sciences and art at Michigan State University in 1964, an M.S. in photography from the Institute of Design at Illinois Institute of Technology in 1972, and a M.S.W. from Salem State College in 1993. He is married to Barbara (McDonald) Gilbert, and has three daughters, Robyn, Rachel, and Anne. Gilbert took a serious interest in photography at the age of fourteen. In 1963 he joined the staff of Look magazine in New York as the second youngest photojournalist in the magazine's history. As a Look photographer from 1964 to 1966, he photographed folk musician Bob Dylan, the Newport Folk Festival, Simon and Garfunkel, the New York City Financial District, the children and facilities at the Manhattan School for Seriously Disturbed Children. From 1967 to 1969, Gilbert did several shoots, including that of folk singer Janis Ian for Life magazine. After moving to Chicago, Illinois in 1969 to attend the Illinois Institute of Technology, Gilbert conducted notable photo shoots of business and political figure Lenore Romney, and pursued more personal and artistic photography, focusing on urban and rural landscapes in Illinois and Michigan. He then joined the faculty of Wheaton College, where he taught from 1972 to 1982. In 1993, Gilbert graduated from Salem State College, Massachusetts, with a Masters in Social Work, and later pursued a second career as a psychotherapist. Douglas Gilbert died in June 2023. &#13;
&#13;
Throughout his photography career, he pursued both freelance commercial work as well as artistic work. His art photography is characterized by its classic black-and-white format, and features people, places and objects shot great attention and sensitivity. Gilbert's works are held in the permanent collections of the Art Institute of Chicago, the High Museum of Art in Atlanta, The Norton Simon Museum in Pasadena, and the Grand Valley State University Art Galleries, as well as in numerous private and institutional collections.&#13;
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                  <text>&lt;a href="%E2%80%9Dhttps%3A//gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/783%E2%80%9D"&gt;Douglas R. Gilbert Papers (RHC-183)&lt;/a&gt;</text>
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                <text>Black and white photograph of a pro- Vietnam War demonstration in New York, New York. In the photograph, a group of supporters are seen holding signs that read, " Support Our Boys in Vietnam Now" and "Better Dead than Red." Scanned from the negative.</text>
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                <text>&lt;a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/783"&gt;Douglas R. Gilbert papers (RHC-183)&lt;/a&gt;</text>
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&#13;
Throughout his photography career, he pursued both freelance commercial work as well as artistic work. His art photography is characterized by its classic black-and-white format, and features people, places and objects shot great attention and sensitivity. Gilbert's works are held in the permanent collections of the Art Institute of Chicago, the High Museum of Art in Atlanta, The Norton Simon Museum in Pasadena, and the Grand Valley State University Art Galleries, as well as in numerous private and institutional collections.&#13;
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Douglas R. Gilbert (b. 1942) is an American photographer from Michigan. He was born in Holland, Michigan and is the son of Russell W. and Carmen (Andree) Gilbert. Gilbert earned a B.A. in social sciences and art at Michigan State University in 1964, an M.S. in photography from the Institute of Design at Illinois Institute of Technology in 1972, and a M.S.W. from Salem State College in 1993. He is married to Barbara (McDonald) Gilbert, and has three daughters, Robyn, Rachel, and Anne. Gilbert took a serious interest in photography at the age of fourteen. In 1963 he joined the staff of Look magazine in New York as the second youngest photojournalist in the magazine's history. As a Look photographer from 1964 to 1966, he photographed folk musician Bob Dylan, the Newport Folk Festival, Simon and Garfunkel, the New York City Financial District, the children and facilities at the Manhattan School for Seriously Disturbed Children. From 1967 to 1969, Gilbert did several shoots, including that of folk singer Janis Ian for Life magazine. After moving to Chicago, Illinois in 1969 to attend the Illinois Institute of Technology, Gilbert conducted notable photo shoots of business and political figure Lenore Romney, and pursued more personal and artistic photography, focusing on urban and rural landscapes in Illinois and Michigan. He then joined the faculty of Wheaton College, where he taught from 1972 to 1982. In 1993, Gilbert graduated from Salem State College, Massachusetts, with a Masters in Social Work, and later pursued a second career as a psychotherapist. Douglas Gilbert died in June 2023. &#13;
&#13;
Throughout his photography career, he pursued both freelance commercial work as well as artistic work. His art photography is characterized by its classic black-and-white format, and features people, places and objects shot great attention and sensitivity. Gilbert's works are held in the permanent collections of the Art Institute of Chicago, the High Museum of Art in Atlanta, The Norton Simon Museum in Pasadena, and the Grand Valley State University Art Galleries, as well as in numerous private and institutional collections.&#13;
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                    <text>Prodigal Love
From the series: Images of God in the Stories of Jesus
Text: Luke 15:20
Richard A. Rhem
Christ Community Church
Spring Lake, Michigan
Pentecost X, August 16, 1992
Transcription of the spoken sermon
But while he was still far off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion, and he
ran and put his arms around him and kissed him. Luke 15:20

It is very important to name things correctly because names give us a
preconception of the reality of something. The parable that we just read has been
popularly known as the “Parable of the Prodigal Son,” but, actually, that is a
misnomer. That is an incorrect naming.
To call it the Parable of the Prodigal Son is to put the focus on the son. Now there
were two sons. But to name it the Parable of the Prodigal Son is to put the focus
on the more exciting son, the one that would put a little raciness into the
narrative. But it is not a story about the rascal or the rogue. It is a story about the
father. And the father represents God. It is very important for us in this series of
messages, in which we will be looking at the Images of God in the Stories of
Jesus, to get the title straight.
In titling today’s sermon, I’ve saved the word prodigal because I looked it up in
the dictionary and found that it can have a positive as well as a negative meaning.
Prodigal, in the sense of the prodigal son, means wastefulness, spendthrift, a
rascal, using one’s substance on that which is not necessary or important, etc. But
if you keep reading you will find that prodigal can also mean abundance, lavish,
superabundance, profuse. So, in order to name the parable, I’ll save the word
prodigal, but we’ll call it prodigal love. It is important to get that straight because
images of God in the stories Jesus told are metaphors. And it is important to get
the proper focus of the story in order to be sure we catch the metaphor.
A metaphor, you will remember we said last week, is a figure of speech. The word
comes from two Greek words - meta, which means behind or over or across, and
pherein, which means to carry, to bear. And so a metaphor carries us across the
gulf of unknowing in order that we might have some sense of that Mystery that is
beyond us. In order that, in terms of things that are familiar to us, we might have

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some sense of the Mystery that is always beyond our comprehension. We can
only talk of God in metaphors. We can only understand God and the deepest
spiritual Mysteries in terms of poetic expression, and so, in this metaphor, this
parable, we have an image of God as Prodigal Love.
Jesus didn’t lecture those who were complaining to him and about him. He didn’t
write a catechism. He didn’t try to get into a rational argument. He told a story.
Jesus always told stories because Jesus knew that was the only way to
communicate the depth of the Mystery to which he was pointing. You can only
speak of God poetically. You can only get the feel and the sense of the reality of
God in an analogy, in a figure of speech, a story, a parable. He told this parable in
order to image God as Prodigal Love, because God is Prodigal Love.
Isn’t that good news? Isn’t that wonderful? Isn’t that the news that has set our
tongues singing and our feet dancing? “Why, of course,” you say. “Why certainly,”
you agree. But wait a minute. Wait a minute. Are you sure? Do you really buy
that? Does that really make you feel good, comfortable? Are you at ease with
that? God as Prodigal Love.
I want to tell you, it will never make it in Houston this week. The Republican
Platform Committee would never come out with a platform that had at its heart
the theme that God is Prodigal Love. I’ll tell you, neither Bill Clinton nor George
Bush could capture the White House this fall, campaigning on a plank of God’s
Prodigal Love as the answer to our economic ills. I’ll tell you something more;
there’s not a national church assembly meeting this year that would ever have at
the center of its mission statement, God’s Prodigal Love. I’ll tell you something
more; even in Christ Community we might not rest totally at ease with God’s
Prodigal Love.
I suppose making a provocative statement like that I ought to support it. I could
see you were nodding your head “yes” all too soon and all too easily when I said
it’s good news that God is Prodigal Love. Sure. But why did Jesus tell the story?
Because the scribes and Pharisees were murmuring about the fact that the tax
collectors and the sinners were coming to hear Jesus, and they were put off by the
fact that Jesus was receiving them and inviting them to eat with him, which was
the sign of hospitality and the acceptance of such a person.
Luke sets the story of God’s Prodigal Love in the context of the murmuring of the
scribes and Pharisees. And who were the scribes and the Pharisees? Well, they
don’t get very good press in the Gospel because they are always set over against
Jesus. They are always in the adversarial position, but, as a matter of fact, in all
honesty, they were the best people in town. They were the serious people. They
were the religious people. They were the pillars of society. They were decent.
They were honest. They were hard working. With dogged determination and
dedication they kept life going and institutions intact. They were faithful. They
were devout. They were seriously good people. They were like the people who are

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going to fill Convention Hall in Houston this week. I mean, that describes
Republicans, doesn’t it?
They murmured, “Who does he think he is? Look with whom he is associating.”
Murmur. Does anybody murmur better than good religious people? We the
upright and the uptight, don’t we murmur? Aren’t we always grumbling in our
beard about how bad the world is and how everything is going to pot, and about
our irresponsible neighbor?
Folks, the scribes and the Pharisees were the kind of people who come to worship
at 10:00 on Sunday morning. Good people. But they murmured. They were
offended at Jesus living and acting out what he believed to be true and that is that
God is Prodigal Love. Jesus acted out what he believed God to be. Jesus was
transparent. He was a picture. He was a metaphor of God. Seeing into the face of
Jesus, we see into the heart of God. And what the good folk saw… They. Did. Not.
Like.
You want another piece of evidence? This is still in Luke’s Gospel. If you go to the
fourth chapter where Jesus begins his ministry, he came to his hometown crowd,
his local congregation where you would have thought they would have given him
a break. Remember? He preached from the Prophet Isaiah. He proclaimed a
message of liberation - sight to the blind, and hearing to the deaf, the lame to
walk, the prisoners freed. And his own people were so angry they wanted to throw
him over the cliff. They wanted to kill him. And it was his consistent living out of
that inaugural text that earned him the wrath of the best people in town.
You want one more piece of evidence? How does the story of the Prodigal end?
The story ends, not with the salty tears of the father over the son who came home,
but with the faithful, obedient, hard working, dedicated, committed son who was
always every day out in the back 40 plowing and hoeing and weeding. He comes
home one night; he’s tired; he is satisfied, feeling that he has worked hard and
put in another good day’s work. But, of course, his satisfaction is really riddled
with resentment, because nobody really likes to be that good and that faithful all
of the time. I mean if you are that good and that faithful all of the time, then you
in all probability have a bit of resentment suppressed somewhere. It will
inevitably pop up now and again. He said, “What’s going on?” The servant says,
“Your brother’s home.” Dark clouds. The father comes out and says, “Your
brother’s home, let’s have a party.”
“No way! That no good joust-about, who’s wasted all your living?” he says to his
father. Then he colored the story a little bit. He didn’t know for sure what the
younger son had been doing, but he knew what he would have done, if he were
out there; that’s part of his resentment. He said, “He was wasting your living on
harlots and all that other kind of stuff, and you kill a fatted calf for him? I have
slaved for you all these years and you never gave me a party.” Jesus is
brandishing a vivid point to those to whom he told the story in the first place, to
the murmurers.

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Now to come back to the question I started with. Does it really sit easy with you
that God is a God of Prodigal Love? Just think about the story for a minute. The
younger son gets what he can get and scrams. Breaks his father’s heart. Breaks all
codes of decency and honor. Enters into a self-destructive pattern of life. Finds
himself in a real pinch, scratches his head and realizes the servants in his father’s
house are better off than he. He devises a plan. “I will arise and go to my father.”
He rehearses this speech: “Father, I am not worthy to be your son. I have sinned
against heaven and against you.” I think he meant it. I think he had attained a
certain amount of proper humility. But I don’t think he was changed yet. This is
still just a strategy. He was going to come home. He was going to give his
prepared speech. He was going to try to be one of the hired servants because he
still is operating under the old principle. He thinks, “You know if the old man will
give me a second chance, and I work hard enough, and I am dedicated long
enough, if I follow my elder brother around long enough, maybe I can prove that
there is really some good stuff in me after all. Maybe if he’ll give me a second
chance I can still prove myself.”
So he comes home and the old man is on the rooftop. He’s been up there every
day since the kid left. He’s been straining his eyes looking down the road, hardly
seeing because he is blinded by the tears he’s been shedding. And then he sees his
son and almost leaps off the roof of his house. He gathers his garments around
him in a way that would be considered shameful in that culture and in that day,
and he begins to run down the street as no male over 30 years of age would run.
He throws off proper decorum and proper behavior and doesn’t care who is
watching, who is witnessing this kind of shocking display of emotion. He races,
the text says, he races to his son and his son gets the first line of his prepared
speech out, only to be smothered by the arms of the father, whose salty tears flow
over the son as he kisses him effusively in a prodigal manner and restores him to
sonship.
That is a moving story isn’t it? It is a wonderful story. The trouble is we haven’t
dared preach it that way in church, we haven’t let the story just be. We haven’t
dared to just tell that story and say, “God is like that.” We’ve always hedged a bit.
I am going to quote from a sermon given by a preacher, recognized as
outstanding in our tradition. It is from a sermon on this parable:
“These parables teach and depict in a pictorial form the basic message of
the Bible that God is a God of grace.” (Good so far.) “God forgives sinners
by grace. That is, he forgives sins freely and not by merit on the part of the
person who has sinned. The word grace means unmerited favor. This, of
course, does not mean that God overlooks sin or that he winks at it, or that
he excuses it. God forbid. He is able (listen to me now) to forgive us freely
because full atonement has been made for our sin in the death of Jesus
Christ, the Son of God, on the Cross of Calvary. (I’ll repeat that.) He is able
to forgive us freely because full atonement has been made for our sin in

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the death of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, on the Cross of Calvary.” [Words
in parenthesis spoken by Richard A. Rhem.]

This is the way you’ve had the Gospel preached to you almost all your life. The
cross of Calvary, the death of the Son of God, the Atonement. Did you really find
that in the story? Where did that come from?
Now this is a very fine preacher, and this very fine preacher knows full well that
when one preaches one is supposed to preach the text. But he dragged the word
about Calvary into this story didn’t he? It’s not in there. Jesus told a story about a
son who went bad and came home and got loved by his father. He didn’t say
anything about parole, or probation, or recrimination, or condemnation, or
somebody else taking the rap for all of the grief the father had experienced.
Where did it come from?
It came from Paul, of course: Paul’s reflection, after the fact, a reflection back on
the life and death and resurrection of Jesus. All of Paul is theological reflection.
The problem in the Church is that we have never let the images of God in the
stories of Jesus be heard in all of their potency, in all of their power. We have not
trusted these stories. We have wanted to warn folks like you that what Jesus said
in a case like this is not all that there is to say. This preacher was following a
principle of interpretation that is taught in our seminaries, and that is that every
text of scripture has to be interpreted in light of every other text of scripture. So
you preached the text, but always in the context of the whole.
Yesterday Nancy was doing some baking. Here she was up to her elbows in flour had the rolling pin out. She starts from scratch, that girl! I mean she’s good! She’s
rolling out this crust until it is beautiful and smooth. There’s not a foreign particle
anywhere, nor any kind of little lump. It is absolutely flat, uniform,
homogeneous. You could take a hunk of that crust any place and you would have
the real ticket. That’s what we have done with the Bible in all of its rich diversity,
in all of the thousands of years over which it came to expression, and all of the
different contexts into which it is spoken. We have taken a rolling pin and we’ve
rolled it and rolled it.
It reminds me of a soup I used to like when I was trying to lose weight. (I’ve, of
course, gotten that weight down now where it is just right!) This was a soup that
had all kinds of vegetables and when it was all done you couldn’t identify
anything in that bland mush. You threw them into the blender and blended that
thing until - well, there were carrots and onions, and celery and tomatoes, and
potatoes and all of that. Sometimes I like to take a big bite out of a carrot and
taste a carrot, or an onion, or a tomato or a potato. But if you get it all blended
together, you can dish it out and it’s got a little bit of everything in it and it
doesn’t taste like anything distinctive! And it doesn’t have any pungency or any
punch.

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And so in the Church we have hedged on the stories of Jesus just so you folks
didn’t get the wrong impression. We are afraid you might think, as the preacher
said, “God might wink at sin.” Or that God could just forgive us if God willed to
forgive us. So we have, thank God, Paul who puts the damper on Jesus.
But now just think with me for a minute. You are parents, grandparents, aunts or
uncles. Is there a child you love? Can you imagine a child you love with all your
heart and soul, that child breaking your heart? A son or daughter going wrong?
Can you imagine every time the telephone rang your heart skipping a beat
because you hoped it was he or she? Can you imagine going to the mailbox every
day just in case there might be some communication from that son or daughter?
Can you imagine a son or daughter whom you loved, seeing, clear as a bell, that
they were on the road to destruction and not being able to do a thing about that?
Loving them. Caring. Longing. Yearning. Weeping. And one day there is a rap on
the door and there they are. What would you do? What would you do?
Jesus said, “If you, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how
much more your heavenly father.” I think Jesus would say, “Don’t drag Paul into
this story. I am trying to image for you God, who in Prodigal Love simply forgives
freely.” It is an image of God who has to let the kid go because he will only love,
and has no other plan. God who stands helpless even in the face of his “steadyEddie” elder son who complains, saying to that elder son, “All I have is yours. You
are home. Come in to the party,” but can’t drag him by the hair. Jesus images God
as Prodigal Love who loves and loves until one finally gets close enough to him to
be embraced and to experience and to be lost in the abyss of that love.
Jesus paid it all - I feel a little more comfortable - that’s the kind of world I can
operate in. Then, Dad, take me back and let me prove myself. That feels better.
But it’s not the Gospel, and it’s not the way God does it. The old Dutch painter,
Rembrandt, captured the story and the poignancy of the parable in a painting
that Peter owns, that he has shown me. It is the parable of the Prodigal Son,
which we have renamed now the Prodigal Lover. Peter and I are going to show
you the painting. I’ll be God. [laughter heard] Well I’ve got this beard. [Peter
responds, “I get the party!”] [Dick embraces Peter and says:] This is the painting.
Do you see the salty tears on the father’s cheeks? All God ever wants to do is
embrace his children and have them home.
You get the picture. Listen to the voice of God. “You are loved. You are home.”

© Grand Valley State University

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                  <text>1981-2014</text>
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                <text>Prodigal Love</text>
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                <text>Richard A. Rhem - An Archive of Sermons, Prayers, Talks and Stories: http://richardrhem.org/</text>
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                <text>A sermon given by Richard A. Rhem (Dick) on August 16, 1992 entitled "Prodigal Love", as part of the series "Images of God in the Stories of Jesus", on the occasion of Pentecost X, at Christ Community Church, Spring Lake, MI. Scripture references: Luke 15:20.</text>
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            <name>Publisher</name>
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                <text>Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives</text>
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        <name>Nature of God</name>
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        <name>Transforming Grace</name>
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        <name>Unconditional Love</name>
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</itemContainer>
