807 24 26018 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/75e7b5685ea091e7da1384156e05beff.mp4 a2643c42e9a4324b4bbaded3a37ce690 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1cdeb37211db4803980cd091f465b009.pdf 7c941f5040915474f422f8d1e5e5c7d1 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans’ History Project Bob Rimmer World War II & Korean Era 54 minutes 5 seconds (00:00:12) Early Life -Born in St. Paul, Minnesota on April 25, 1923 -Father was an underground iron ore minor on the Mesabi Range as an iron ore miner -Family moved to Flint, Michigan -Father became a foreman for Arctic Dairy -Eventually became a route foreman in charge of five or six drivers -His mother was a housewife -He had one sister that was a year younger than him and a brother nine years younger -He lived in Flint until 1932 -His father bought a dairy in Hutchinson, Kansas -Manufactured ice cream and other dairy products -Lived there until 1938 -Moved to Lyons, Kansas -Father worked a dairy route there -Father bought a restaurant in Cunningham, Kansas -He moved back to Flint to work his aunt and uncle‟s hamburger restaurant -He eventually moved back to Kansas where he enlisted in the Coast Guard in March 1942 (00:02:52) Start of the War and Enlisting -Enlisted in the Coast Guard in March 1942 -Everyone else he knew was enlisting and he felt he owed something to his country -Remembers coming in from working in the oil fields and going into his father‟s restaurant -It was the morning of December 7, 1941 -Remembers his mother crying -Went out with a few friends and decided that they would have to fight (00:04:08) Overview of Service -Sent to Long Island, New York for basic training -Sent to Bay City, Michigan where he was a truck driver for the 9th District of the Coast Guard -Sent to California where he boarded the USS Long Beach -Conducted patrols in the South Pacific -Ship returned to the United States in 1944 and he was sent to Seattle, Washington -From Seattle he was sent to St. Louis, Missouri where he was discharged in June 1946 -Duty in St. Louis was maintenance and to continue being a truck driver (00:05:48) Life after the War -Returned to Michigan in 1946 -Found work at Continental Motors -Went to college -Went to work at a centrifugal foundry and worked on the design board there -Worked for Sealed Power Corporation when they took over -Worked as a plant engineer in South Haven, Michigan �-Eventually started a welding business with a friend -Sold the business after a while -Went to Muskegon, Michigan to work for Lorin Industries -Got a job in Montague, Michigan with Tech Cast -Worked there as a plant engineer -Went back to work in South Haven with the same company that he had worked for there -Went to work for another foundry and retired in 1978 (00:08:34) Basic Training -Sent to Long Island, New York for basic training -Basic training lasted for three months -The main emphasis was on discipline -He got assigned to being a truck driver because he had truck driving experience -Led to being assigned to transportation (00:09:40) Stationed in Michigan -He was sent to Bay City, Michigan in June 1942 -Sent there by train -He drove truck there for the 9th District of the Coast Guard until he was sent to California -Duty was the transportation of personnel (00:10:17) Boarding USS Long Beach -He took a train out to California and boarded the USS Long Beach -A Tacoma-class frigate -Had a crew of 220 men -303 feet long and 37.5 feet wide -Had two 3” guns and three .40 caliber multi-barrel machine guns -NOTE: Actual armaments: three 3” guns and four 40mm guns -He stayed in California for a couple months waiting to be deployed -Went on a shakedown cruise and had further repairs done before leaving the United States -USS Long Beach left San Diego, California on January 12, 1944 -He adapted well to being at sea (00:12:32) Patrols in the South Pacific Pt. 1 -Went to Noumea, New Caledonia -Sailed from there to Cairns, Australia -Sailed around New Guinea -Took part in the invasion of Hollandia -Specifically the island of Aitape on April 19, 1944 -Remembers playing softball on a Landing Ship, Tank after the invasion -Primary duty was patrols and the escort of ships -Remembers escorting a few hospital ships (00:13:58) Duty aboard the Long Beach Pt. 1 -He was stationed in the engine room as a Machinist Mate 1st Class -He would work for four hours and then be off for eight hours -Making sure that there weren‟t any problems and that everything was running correctly -Only had one minor engine breakdown while at sea (00:14:48) Patrols in the South Pacific Pt. 2 -Went to Wewak, Finschhafen, Morotai, and Sansapor, New Guinea -Went to New Caledonia �-Went to Cairns, Australia -Went to Pago Pago -Escorted and oversaw some Marine invasions -Protecting Landing Ship, Tanks and other personnel carriers -Patrolled the South Pacific until late 1944 (00:16:20) Enemy Contact Pt. 1 -Saw several suicide attacks from Japanese planes -Disturbing to watch Japanese planes dive into American ships (00:16:56) Contact with Civilians -Landed on one island that had a lot of coconut trees -They would pay the natives cigarettes to go and gather a few coconuts -The natives in New Guinea were friendly and welcoming to Americans -He sent a few coconut shells home as souvenirs to his family (00:18:25) Enemy Contact Pt. 2 -Japanese air attacks happened every two or three days -They would receive information that enemy aircraft were in the area -Tried to prepare for them or get away from them if at all possible -Remembers passing through the Admiralty Islands and seeing Japanese soldiers on one island -They were shooting at the ship with their rifles -Hoping to pick off a sailor that was on deck -They were able to destroy a few mines that they spotted -When making contact with the enemy they would go to general quarters -Meant that everyone put on a lifejacket and went to their battle stations -His place was on the fantail, or the back, of the ship -Looking for any sign of the enemy then report it to the bridge -They had torpedoes and depth charges available to be used against Japanese submarines -They spotted a few submarines and attacked them -Never knew if they had been successful though -Didn‟t want to stay in the area too long to find out -It was also a rarity to spot a submarine (00:22:57) Weather Conditions in the South Pacific -They never had any consistently bad weather, or run into any storms -Remembers they would get some rough water though -One wave that washed over the ship was eight feet higher than the deck -Meant that it was about fifty eight feet in height (00:23:52) Living Conditions -No one was ever washed overboard -One sailor had a heart attack and had to be taken to a hospital ship though -The engine room was always 120oF-125oF and the boiler room was always 130oF -The air temperature on the deck was in the 80s or 90s -Wore the white sailor cap, jeans, dungarees, and a denim shirt -Remembers there was one sailor that had misshapen ears -The doctor came aboard the ship and gave him cosmetic surgery -Made the sailor happy because he finally looked normal (00:26:32) Stateside Duty and End of the War -After patrols were done in the South Pacific he returned to the United States �-USS Long Beach was sent to Brooklyn for repairs due to sustaining some minor damage -Damage wasn‟t serious enough to require being taken to a dry dock -NOTE: The USS Long Beach was taken to Boston on January 25, 1944 -Placed on a train and sent out to Seattle, Washington -He was on a train going cross country when the train stopped in a small town in California -A couple men got off and went over to a grocery store to buy a few cases of beer -Celebrating Victory in Japan Day -Drinks had been cut off on the train to prevent overdrinking in celebration -Relief over the use of the atomic bombs amongst servicemen and civilians -Servicemen were glad to not have to be in Japan -Civilians were happy that the war would be over and their men could come home -He was stationed in St. Louis until he was discharged in June 1946 -Stationed in a business administration building that the Coast Guard was using -His job was to do maintenance work in the building (00:32:00) Contact with Family -He was able to visit his family for two or three days on leave a couple times -His mother died from cancer two days after he went to sea -He brought his younger brother to St. Louis to visit while he was stationed there (00:32:45) United States Navy Reserve -Two (or three) months after getting discharged he enlisted in the United States Navy Reserve -After getting out of the Coast Guard he married a WWII widow that had two children -He was called to duty in September 1951 -NOTE: Since he served aboard the USS Ammen it would have been 1951, not „52 -Got discharged from the Navy Reserve in December 1953 -When he was called to duty he was assigned to the USS Ammen in her engine room -Took it on a shakedown cruise then went into the Atlantic for patrols -At the time the Korean War was being fought -Remembers that a lot of civilians were against it -Felt that WWII had been enough of a sacrifice for the time being -There was a rumor that there were Soviet forces in the North Atlantic -The Ammen was dispatched to go investigate that claim -Sailed around the North Atlantic for three or four months -NOTE: The Ammen stayed in the Atlantic and Mediterranean until February 1953 -Remembers that it was cold and he was one iceberg -The sea was choppy, but not exactly “rough” -Compared to the Pacific though, the Pacific was farm calmer and much warmer -Remembers that at one time they were almost run over by another ship -The USS Ammen was slightly larger and slightly heavier armed than the USS Long Beach -Had a crew of 250 men and 4” guns instead of 3” guns -He reprised his rank and duty as a Machinist Mate 1st Class in the engine room (00:41:35) Living Conditions on the Ammen -Morale was good -It was a more relaxed atmosphere than it had been aboard the Long Beach -They would make and swap crossword puzzles with each other to pass the time -Doesn‟t remember anyone ever getting out of line and doing anything stupid or reckless -Did drills to stay prepared like they had done on the Long Beach �-Remembers they had a few false alarms due to sonar picking up an unidentified object -Tried not to think about sinking -Slept on cots on bunk beds that held three cots -Would get a decent night of sleep unless you were scheduled to be on watch (00:47:55) End of Service -After the Atlantic cruise they returned to Charleston, South Carolina in February 1953 -NOTE: The USS Ammen would have pulled into Newport, Rhode Island -He stayed in the Navy Reserve for a few more months before getting discharged in December (00:48:24) Comparing Coast Guard and Navy -His experiences in the Coast Guard and the Navy were basically the same -There was rivalry between the branches -Never had any impact on him from serving in the Coast Guard though (00:49:25) Coming Home -After getting discharged from the Navy Reserve he got a ride from a coal truck -Rode that for a few hundred miles -Then got on a Greyhound bus and rode that the rest of the way home (00:50:03) Reflections on Service -Cherished the sense of camaraderie -His time in the Coast Guard qualified him for the GI Bill -Paid for college at St. Louis University and Muskegon Community College -Attended college at Muskegon Community College with other veterans -Considers it an interesting part of his life -Feels fortunate that he was able to make it through his service uninjured and alive -Feels gratified that he was able to do it, and has no regrets � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_RimmerB1765V Title A name given to the resource Rimmer, Robert (Interview outline and video), 2015 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015-05-04 Description An account of the resource Bob Rimmer was born in St. Paul, Minnesota in 1923. He grew up in Minnesota, Michigan, and Kansas before enlisting in the Coast Guard in March 1942. After basic training he was stationed at Bay City, Michigan as a truck driver then aboard the USS Long Beach in the South Pacific during 1944 taking part in patrols and several amphibious invasions. In 1945 he returned to the United States and was stationed in Seattle, Washington and St. Louis, Missouri before being discharged in June 1946. Later in 1946 he enlisted in the United States Navy Reserve and in September 1951 he was called up for service and was assigned to the USS Ammen. He took part in patrols of the Atlantic Ocean aboard the Ammen, returning to the United States in February 1953. He was discharged from the Navy Reserve in December 1953. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rimmer, Robert Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Zwart, Brian (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Coast Guard United States. Naval Reserve Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Moving Image Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e3ff50ae1dfa124b6cc4868f60ec43bc.mp3 2abafdeae2a3ec2fc47f2b10ff84682d https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/78dc814216571c6d79bf558e00bfbb2c.pdf 1fee1028110f9cf021697ff908a05222 PDF Text Text GV043-07 Connected Exhibit Interviews Interviewee: Jesenia Rincones Interviewers: Gayle Schaub Date: May 5, 2016 Gayle: Okay so don’t worry about what it’s– because we’re going to edit it all. Cause I don’t want my voice in the back. Jesenia: So we’re just talking. Gayle: We’re just talking. Jesenia: Ok. Gayle: Where are you from in Grand Rapids? Jesenia: 00:09 I from Wyoming. So it’s like right out of Grand Rapids. When I was younger, I grew up in Grand Rapids on Coate St., off Grandville and Hall. It’s like a little Hispanic area. Gayle: Jesenia: Okay. Where’d you go to school? 00:22 I went to school… I went to a few schools. In high school, I went to Wyoming High School, but then our community doesn’t have that much money so our rival schools combined, so then I went to just Wyoming High School. Gayle: Jesenia: That happened in Grand Rapids too. Like Creston closed. 00:39 Yeah. I was there for that whole thing. Gayle: Jesenia: Oh, in Grand Rapids? But, you didn’t go to any GRPS schools, did you? 00:47 No, I went—it happened in Wyoming like our school… when the middle schools first combined and then I was part of that year—the first year and then the high schools, so yeah. Gayle: Jesenia: Gayle: So, tell me about like coming to Grand Rap— Grand Valley. What year are you? What’s your major? You can just… anywhere you want to start. 1:10 I’ll be a junior next year. My major is nursing. So, hopefully, next year I plan on applying. I’m taking it slow at my own pace. Because it is competitive. Coming to Grand Valley was a big step. I was one of 14 grandchildren who is, like, going to college. A lot of people in my family get their diplomas and they just get a job, and I was the only one who was expected to go to college because I talked about it. So, it was like a really big thing and a lot of pressure. So, I was excited but I was very, like, nervous…because I didn’t want to…ruin it I guess, or not just like ruin it for myself but like my family. And nobody probably had a lot of guidance or advice to give you. �Jesenia: 1:59 No, not many. So, like it was hard cause I lost my confidence definitely when I got here. Because my school wasn’t, like, super small, and everyone around me like had parents who were still married or parents who were alumni somewhere. They went—they just knew all these things that I never knew or that my family never even thought of, because we didn’t grow up like that. So, knowing that I was already a— in a competitive field and knowing like I’m usually the only Hispanic in the room, and I’m a girl in the room and just all these different labels on me that could set me back was… It was hard because I never felt like a minority until I got to this campus. Yeah, so… Gayle: But you knew you wanted to do nursing even..? Jesenia: Yeah. Gayle: Okay. Jesenia: 2:47 Gayle: Jesenia: And you weren’t scared off by some people want to do this and then they realize some of the classes you have to take are…? 3:43 Gayle: Jesenia: My mom was a medical assistant. So, she was like a single mother. My dad went to prison, but he’s… I mean my dad’s still a great dad now, but things happen. He went to prison, and then my mom was like a single mom with two kids, me and my older brother. This is when they didn’t always have a lot of after school programs back then. So, like getting off—her boss of the clinic used to let her bring us to work. So, we used to like… we didn’t always listen, and we used to run around, and I always saw like doctors and new like… residents or like interns and stuff like that, and I thought it was so cool. So, I always knew I wanted to be in the medical field, just because I got to have a playground in it, when I was little. Well, I was. I—first I wanted to be a pediatrician, and I… my senior year I did the Health Science Early College Academy through KCTC. It’s like a skills tech center in Grand Rapids, and one of our jobs was to do a portfolio, and then we had to interview with either head of the nursing department I think at Davenport and then human resources, like the guy who basically hires you if you’re at Metro Health, and tell him like what we want to do, what our major was, and I saw like all the classes I had to take to be a pediatrician, and like all the chemistry classes if I was a BMS major, and I was like “oh my goodness, this is intense.” Like it was my dream, but I guess I just modified it in a way that’d work for me. I can be a nurse. I can then go and be a nurse practitioner, just specialize in peds, and it won’t be a pediatrician, but I can still do a job that I love. Cool. 4:49 Yeah, it was… I don’t know. It was different. It kind of made me sad because you’re like, you know, everyone has a dream that they want to do, but then when you like realize maybe I like can’t do it then I guess I just made a plan B. If that makes sense? Yeah. �Gayle: Jesenia: You’re not necessarily, though. Like you’re not deciding this for the rest of your life. I mean you can always… 5:16 Gayle: Jesenia: Make changes. Yeah, but I’m determined I guess. I had like my freshman year I was… had a lot of doubts I guess, cause I was like the honor roll student in high school. My parents didn’t have to worry about my grades, and then I did like… I remember I cried when I got a C+ in my Bio class. That was my first science class here, and I was like telling my mom like ‘I’m not going to be competitive’ and all these things it just felt like everything was coming downhill, but then this year I took it as like ‘I can’t focus on what everyone else is doing around me’, ‘I can’t keep thinking about how competitive it is’. I guess I have to compete with myself, and stop letting the little voice in my head bring me down. And this year I made Dean’s list both semesters, so I was pretty excited about that. Wow. Those tough classes, yeah. 6:10 Yeah, so I was pretty happy. Gayle: So how do you balance your academic schedule with…Do you have a social schedule? Jesenia: My social life has definitely declined I would say. Right now I work thirty two hours a week, Gayle: Oh my god. Jesenia: 6:29 Gayle: Jesenia: No kidding. 6:42 Gayle: Jesenia: Between two jobs. I work on Saturdays and Sundays from 6am to 3pm, and then I work in the financial aid office, and I’m a full time student this semester. So I don’t know how I got the grades I got. I just kind of lived in the Library. It was worth it in the end for me. When I was in high school it was easy to go out on the weekends with your friends and get an A on your test because the curriculum wasn’t that hard. I just realized maybe I can put that on a hold for now and do what I have to do to get my career, because there’s always going to be a time to go out. That was hard for me too, when I stopped talking to my friends that always wanted to go out and do these things that we used to do in high school. I was like “I can’t go out on a Thursday night and have a 10am class on Friday morning.” That just doesn’t work for me. Are they friends here on campus, or are you kind of straddling two worlds? 7:32 One was a friend her on campus and one was like back and forth. She went to Western but then she didn’t want to go anymore and things like that. So it was hard because I grew up with these people since I was like 11. So you think “oh we’re going to go to college, it’s going to be great, we’re going to be friends” blah blah blah. Like friends for so long and then it gets kind of hard to realize maybe it wasn’t �the best friendship at the time. I enjoyed and I cherish the moments that we did have, but I realize it is ok to grow out of people. Gayle: Jesenia: Yeah, I think it’s just part of the whole process. 8:10 Gayle: Jesenia: So where do you work on the weekends? 8:22 Gayle: Jesenia: Yeah and that’s something that hurt at first because then you’re like “What do I do now when it’s summer?” But you just keep moving I guess. On the weekends I work at a factory, it’s called Vention Medical. It’s a factory but not really, we make tubes for heart surgeries. How’d you get that job? 8:33 I had a friend that was in my dorm my freshman year. She lived with my roommate because I can’t afford to live in off campus apartments, but my freshman roommate did. Then one of the girls in her house worked there and she told me about the job and I was like “sure.” Because I needed extra cash just to save and pay for school this next year. Gayle: Do you live on campus now? Jesenia: No. Gayle: You commute? Jesenia: Yeah I commute from home. Gayle: Ok. Jesenia: 9:05 Gayle: Jesenia: I did the first year and I loved the experience I had, but I knew when everyone was going to sign applications and things like that I knew financially that I couldn’t do it and I didn’t have parents that could do it either. So I wasn’t going to stress myself out about it and I wasn’t going to stress them out about it either. Yeah, but I mean I guess that’s the benefit of having a friend that does live off campus, because I can see what it’s like. Yeah, but your mom is pretty lucky to have a strong capable… 9:38 Well, I don’t know, my family situation is totally different. My mom lives in Puerto Rico now. And my dad, I live with him and my step mom. We have this huge blended family. I have a half-sister named Jade, and my brother and me, those are my dad’s kids. Then my step mom has Frankie and Jack, and those are my step brothers. Now I have my niece, Sariyah, who’s my brother’s daughter. She’s one. I think she’s going to be one and a half soon, which is crazy. And then my nephew was just born in February. Yeah, I’m my dad’s last kid, his baby. He’s like “please just graduate college, no kids” and I’m like “I got your back.” (laughs) Yeah, but it’s fun, I guess. My baby fever goes away. I guess the best babies you can have are the ones you can give back. �Gayle: Yeah I was the youngest of a big family so I had a lot of nieces and nephews. Jesenia: Yeah, it’s fun though, there’s always something new happening when you’re in a big family. Gayle: But you’re all living in the same place? Jesenia: 10:47 My brother is probably going to move I think with my niece’s mom. Now he’s like growing up with his family. My sister, she lives with her mom in Cedar Springs. So it’s complicated but we all make time for each other on the weekends. Or we try, because there’s so many things going on. Gayle: So one more year and then? Jesenia: Well I’ll be a junior this year. Gayle: Oh you’re just going to be a junior this year, ok. Jesenia: Yes. Gayle: So you just finished your sophomore year. Jesenia: Gayle: Jesenia: 11:17 Yeah, so I might be an extra year. But I mean, for me, I know a lot of people who are like “I need to get out of here in four years, and I need to do this” and all these expectations but I just kind of look at is as, I didn’t do the nursing program by the book and it’s working for me now. So why rush it? And I’m paying for my education so if that’s what works for meHave you been able to get any scholarship money or financial aid? 11: 46 I get financial aid and I just won a scholarship through the TriO program for $500, so it was nice. So I think that’s what made me stay at Grand Valley is TriO. That’s actually how I got contacted with you. My advisor Marnie, I wasn’t even supposed to be in the program, I met her at my first job and Papa John’s so it was like so weird how it happened. I was just giving her pizza and we started talking about Grand Valley and I was like “Oh yeah, I’ll be a student there”. She gave me her card and I don’t know if it wasn’t for Marnie I think I would be lost on this campus. Like, how you said, I said I’m a first generation college student, I don’t have many people to talk to. Finding guidance is hard, and I would have to say that’s what that program is for me. Making me feel like when I’m at my lowest, they’ll build me up. Or when I’m nervous or scared to take a hard class, Marnie pushes me. So I definitely appreciate her and the relationship we have as my advisor. Gayle: So is that what the program does for you is provides you with an advisor? Jesenia: Yeah. Gayle: How do you keep your contact with this organization? Jesenia: 13:06 You’re supposed to meet, I think, once a month. I think the older you get each year the less you have to meet, but I meet with Marnie all the time. Like it can be �random like “Oh can we meet up and just talk?” Or things like that. She’s my advisor, a friend, a counselor. She’s all things in one but they’re pretty helpful. Like the have a final study break and a place for you to relax, and if you need help financially with like…I know they have like a laptop or a graphing calculator program and stuff to help students who can’t afford it. Unfortunately I wasn’t in it my first semester of my freshman year but it definitely made a difference my second semester and now. It’s helped me build my confidence academically and let me know that there is a place here at Grand Valley, because the Latino community is so small and it’s hard for me to feel like I’m one with the campus. But TriO has definitely helped. Gayle: Jesenia: Gayle: Jesenia: Gayle: Jesenia: I forgot what I was going to ask you. I don’t remember. Oh I was going to ask you, did you go through transitions? 14:24 Yeah, I did. I was with my roommate a lot of the time. We didn’t even know each other, it was weird. We never knew each other, we never met, and we went in blind. But actually one of her cousins was my cousin’s cousin. That’s weird, I know but we never met each other in all the times we grew up and we ended up being college roommates. Are you still in touch? 14:49 Yeah, we’re still best friends. We talk every now and the cause we both work and go to school so we understand when we have time to meet up we will. We don’t bug each other about it or get mad about it, it’s like a mutual understanding. So it’s definitely a friendship I appreciate because losing friends over not going out and this and that is something I would never do to Kaitlyn, or she would never do to me. Where’d you live when you first moved on campus? 15:18 I lived in Frey Living Center on North campus. The apartment, I know, was more expensive than traditional, but I did it so I could buy groceries and cook food. But a part of me did wish, once freshmen year ended, I could live in traditional because I felt like so many people that lived in traditional were meeting new people and doing new things and I was a little bit of a home body in my apartment living. So if I could change anything I would do that but I’d still want Kaitlyn to be my roommate. Gayle: The fact that you have this really demanding schedule though, and that you’re working, and you’re studying, and you’re doing all this. I guess that in a way… Jesenia: Mhmm. Gayle: If you lived on campus do you think it would be as…could you potentially have distractions, did you ever worry about that? Jesenia: Yeah. Gayle: Wanting to be too… Jesenia: Wanting to be like, social. �Gayle: Jesenia: Gayle: Jesenia: Gayle: Jesenia: Gayle: Jesenia: Gayle: Jesenia: Gayle: Yeah. Making it harder to keep your eye on the prize. 16:27 Yeah, now like being at home, it’s definitely hard because you do have your distractions, not everybody in the house is going to school. You have family events and you have other things to go do. Or when I just want to play with my niece, or just hang out with my dad, or even my boyfriend at that. That’s hard but I have to tell myself “you have to get out of bed.” My time was really vital this semester. It was my first time working two jobs so it was hard but yeah I just slept at the Library. And everyone understood that, like my boyfriend would be like “oh what are you doing?” and I’d be like “I have to go to the Library” and he’d be like “Ok!” I think the best part about it is having people who understand my schedule and don’t push me to do something that they know isn’t going to be beneficial to me. My family is very supportive. That’s good. 17:25 They understand that if I have a final…Like I felt so bad because it was the first time I missed one of my cousin’s birthday parties, and I have plenty of cousins and they’re having babies and I try to make it to everything. Our family is huge and I felt terrible because I couldn’t go to her, I think it was her fifth or fourth birthday. I was like “I can’t, I have to study and I have work tomorrow” and my dad was like “It’s fine, we understand. It’s ok. You can make it to the next one. There’s gonna be plenty to come.” That made me feel terrible, but I was like as long as I do what I have to do now I can be there for all the other birthdays, so, I guess, that’s what really counted. Then I did, I got the grade that I wanted so that felt good. What class was that? 18:13 Chemistry, and chemistry was so brutal for me in high school. Which chemistry? 18:19 Just intro to chemistry and chem 109. I hated chemistry in high school. It was so hard for me and it was like the only science class I didn’t understand and the fact that I could grasp it this semester I was like “yes!” Like when I took my final I thought it was going to be the death of me, but then I was taking it and I was like “oh my God this is the best feeling ever, I know everything on here,” so it was good. Did you ever reach out to tutoring center or anything like that? 18:51 Yeah, definitely that was the help with Marnie as well. She hooked me up with tutors and then my winter semester when I first got in TriO. So that way I knew then the Tutoring Center opened I knew to set up tutors and things like that. So I instantly, I think it was the first week of classes you could sign up for a tutor, I signed up. Before she could even ask me I told her “Yeah I got a chem tutor, I got an anatomy tutor” and she was like, “Oh, ok!” I used to work with a Spanish tutor cause its 100- and 200-level courses you can have a tutor for free. �Jesenia: Yeah, so it definitely helped. Gayle: Yeah. Jesenia: Gayle: Jesenia: Gayle: Jesenia: Gayle: Jesenia: 19:35 Yeah I would have to appreciate or say thank you to Marnie or else I wouldn’t…I guess I knew there was tutoring on campus I just didn’t know how to go about it. Yeah there’s a lot of stuff there and it’s confusing to figure it all out. 19:46 Yeah, especially your freshman year, everything is just all thrown at you at once. Also all these organizations like “oh I want to do this and I want to get good grades, but I want to have a social life, but I also just want to sleep.” So it was really hard to learn time management really quick. I would say it was worth it in the end. A lot of people ask me…I see people that went to high school that were a grade younger than me and now they are hanging out with some of the people I used to hang out with like “Oh why don’t you ever go out any more? We don’t see you that often” and I was like “I really just can’t right now.” I think a lot of people I went to high school with think I have my nose in the air or things like that but I mean I wish the best to all the people I was friends with but I just know I can’t afford to do that anymore in my free time. At this point I would rather just take a nap after work on a Friday than get ready to go out cause I’m only 19 about to be 20 but I get so tired that just having a day to just lie in bed is the greatest thing ever. I mean yeah, it’s a huge transition, coming from high school to college and figuring all of that out and realizing that you have to make these tradeoffs. I remember how tough it was. 21:17 Especially in Grand Rapids and school’s just starting and you have ArtPrize and all these things going on in the community and you want to say yes because a lot of people in my dorm weren’t from Grand Rapids and were like “let’s go here and let’s go there.” So I said yes then but it ended up messing me up later on, so now I know it’s ok to say no and make time for myself. That’s something I definitely appreciate is just alone time with me. I used to always want to be with my friends and do things and now I’m like I just need time to, I guess, release my own emotions for me, and just relax for me and not always look for somebody or look to do something. I remember my dad always used to tell me “just relax, just stay home” and I would say no, no, no, and we would argue about it but now I’m like “oh my god my dad’s always right”. It’s like the worst thing to say but it’s like, he’s right. It’s ok to acknowledge that (laughs). So, you’ve finished pretty much your Gen Ed courses? 22:24 I have a few more to go, I’m thinking about applying next winter. So I might be here a whole extra year. So hopefully all together it’s just five to get my bachelor’s. I think I just have anatomy and physiology II, chem 230 which is Intro to organic and biochemistry, and microbiology. I was going to try to spread that out. I was going to do Micro in the winter and anatomy and chem in the next fall because I heard how brutal it was to do all three in one semester. I actually had a friend who did it �and I don’t want to do that, and I work two jobs so I just can’t do that right now. I did anatomy and physiology I this semester and into to chem and a gen ed and another gen ed this semester, this last semester. It was tough but…I really don’t know how I did it. Thinking back like thank God I got the grade I did because I was like “what the heck?” Because it was a lot of stress but I have to say now I remember my last final like “I don’t even have to go to class. I just have work, I have nothing but work.” I never thought I would be happy to say all I have to do is work for the summer. I never thought I would say that, like as a teenager but I’m so excited to just work and not do school. Having the grades that I did makes me feel more confident taking the classes next fall. I’m excited, but I don’t even want to think about school starting right now. Gayle: I keep forgetting the questions I’m going to ask you while listening to you talk. Jesenia: Sorry (laughs) Gayle: No, no, (laughs) that’s ok. That’s a good thing. I don’t remember. How about classes, are there any that stand out? Like what was your favorite class you’ve taken at Grand Valley so far and why? Jesenia: Gayle: 24:34 One of my favorite classes I’ve taken at Grand Valley was I think world civilizations, it was history 101. It was a gen ed course I took last fall, and it was so awesome because my professor Steven Houser was the best professor I’ve ever had. It was a lot of reading and things like that but I like that he was a teacher, we didn’t just write and take notes like we did do that every other class but he was more, like, engaged. Like let’s hear you talk and let’s hear you’re thinking, and he didn’t have this biased point of view. He’d always try and make us see both perspectives. I thought it was the coolest thing ever because I remember we were in class taking notes on the Freedom Riders, then his dad was just like the last Freedom Rider alive. We were wondering why we didn’t have class last Friday before and he told us “the reason why we didn’t have class was that my father just passed.” When he said the guy that we were taking notes on was his father we were like “What?!” And how his dad knew Nelson Mandela and if Nelson Mandela had an award in the United States his dad would get it for him. He was like “Yeah I didn’t know it but when I was little Martin Luther King Jr. was at my house for dinner”. And I was like this is the most amazing thing I’ve ever seen. Like it was the coolest thing and I thought it was so awesome how his dad was a part of history and his son became a history professor and is like talking about it. It was the coolest thing ever. He was just the coolest teacher, he was just a really cool guy the way he presented the information and make us talk about it. He wasn’t like here’s all this information. Store it in your brain. It was like let’s use it and we even did debates and things like that. It was pretty cool, I liked it. If I could take the class again I would take the class again just for enjoyment because I just liked talking with him about information and, I don’t know. I think he made me think way beyond the boundaries of any history class. Did you get the sense that others loved it too? �Jesenia: 25:53 Yeah. Everyone was always engaged. If you would have been there in the room when he said that everyone’s mouth just dropped. You’re taking notes and you’re listening and then you’re like, “oh my God!” Did he really just say that was his dad?” I know we live in America and I’m not saying America is a bad place, but he always tried to make us see not only the good things about our society but the wrongs. He didn’t belittle other religions and things like that. He always made us try to learn about them and why they are the way they are and the good, the bad, and everything. So that’s what I really appreciated, because you see a lot of things right now with the Middle East and why they are the way they are and everyone’s playing like the blame game but he was like, ”here’s the information and this is why it’s like this.” It was just very eye opening. I was just like “oh my goodness, this is crazy.” We actually had a student who was in the military at the time when everything first happened so he was able to talk about things and it was just a really awesome class. He was just a really cool professor. 28:11 Jarek Kozal is a very great professor for anatomy and physiology, I just took him. He was very visual which totally helped me with my tests because I did retake that class from last winter, and I took it this winter. The way he presented the information as well was very helpful. Like you can’t have a lot of debates with anatomy but he literally built this structure of a muscle fiber just so we could see it visually and break it down. He was always giving study tips and I even told him…I met with him the first week of classes, the first and second week, I told him “I took this class and I need to get a better grade. I’m in the Nursing program, I want to get an A, but I know it’s hard, and I know even if you put 85% in you probably won’t get an 85%.” I told him my work schedule and everything and he gave me this study plan and I totally followed it. It definitely helped me because I got an A this last semester. So I think some people see him as kind of stand-offish in class but he’s a teacher who’s willing to help you if you’re willing to ask for it. Gayle: Jesenia: Well, right there. 29:34 So I appreciated it a lot, and I was like really happy that I got an A and I would have to say it was because of his help. Once again it wasn’t just note taking but he took us through each process step by step and showed us pictures and I think that’s what really helped, because if you can visualize something, at least for me- Gayle: And me, too. Jesenia: Yeah, I can memorize it way better. Gayle: You understand it better. Jesenia: Gayle: 29:56 Yeah, I can explain it to you and not just say I don’t really know what’s going on here, and that’s how I used to feel so, he was just a great professor. I hope he’s teaching A&P II because…yeah I’m nervous for that class. Well I mean if you remember, the large part of what you said was you asked for that help. �Jesenia: Mhmm. Gayle: If you hadn’t asked… Jesenia: I probably would be… Gayle: You might have been struggling the same way. Jesenia: Exactly. Gayle: So…I’m not saying that he wasn’t a great professor. I’m saying it was great of you to take that step and say look here’s my thing. Jesenia: End 30:40 And I was always nervous about that coming here because you always here like stories about professors. I mean, you even have the website Rate My Professor and the things that people say and you’re like, this person has this whole…I think it’s a thing like, you’re in college, you already are, there’s so many students. You’re like, is he really going to care what I have to say. You just have all these things come in your head so I was always nervous to ask for help, because in high school I didn’t have to ask for help. So it took a lot of courage for me to just go and say, “This is what I need, tell me what I need to do because I want to get a good grade,” and he did that, just that. He told me “I know how you feel, I worked two jobs when I was a student and it was really hard for me to do time management. It is going to be hard for you. Your time is vital. You’re working this much time and you’re trying to take chemistry and Anatomy at once, that’s a lot. But if you can-“ � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Connected Exhibit Interviews Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. University Libraries Description An account of the resource Collection of audio recordings and transcripts of Grand Valley State University students sharing their stories and experiences. The recordings were conducted as part of an exhibit created by the University Libraries in fall semester of 2016 titled "Connected" which featured short audio clips of students. The clips were combined with watercolor portraits of GVSU students by Ellie Lubbers and an interactive watercolor painting activity. Students were encouraged to paint 3" circles of paper to illustrate their current feelings about the college experience and attach them to the gallery wall. The aim of the exhibit was to inspire feelings of community, connectedness, and welcome to new and returning students. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/626">University Libraries. Connected exhibit files</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Universities and colleges Michigan College students Oral histories Education, Higher--United States--Anecdotes Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Cadena, Cara; Schaub, Gayle; Frigo, Emily; Lubbers, Ellie; Fisher, Erin Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV043-07 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Language A language of the resource eng Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rincones, Jesenia Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-05-05 Title A name given to the resource Jesenia Rincones interview (audio and transcript) Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Schaub, Gayle (interviewer) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV043-07_RinconesJ_2016-05-05 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/626">University Libraries. Connected exhibit files</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401 Relation A related resource Grand Valley State University Libraries. Connected Exhibit, September 2016 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Description An account of the resource Interview with Jesenia Rincones conducted by Gayle Schaub for the GVSU Libraries' Connected Exhibit, displayed in September 2016. Edited clips of interviews accompanied watercolor portraits of students and an interactive watercolor activity for exhibit visitors. Jesenia graduated from Wyoming High School. She is a junior, majoring in nursing. She is a first-generation student from a big family and has made the Dean’s List the past two semesters, earning top grades in tough classes while working two jobs. One of her jobs is on campus, in the Financial Aid office. She is also involved with TRiO Student Support Services, a program for first-generation and limited-income students. She feels that this program has helped build her confidence academically and helped her, as a Latina student, find her place at GVSU and feel truly a part of the campus community. Balancing the demands of her work and school schedules sometimes leaves Jesenia little time for her super-supportive family and friends, but she handles her load with grace, ability, and perseverance. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Subject The topic of the resource Universities and colleges Michigan College students Oral histories Education, Higher--United States--Anecdotes https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c322c0b2e137473efb65bd982632f657.pdf cf118a48fc963659b6dd0de1c1bdd75e PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Grand Valley State University Special Collections Interviewee: Lucia Rios Interviewers: Bethanie Billing Supervising Faculty: Liberal Arts Department Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 2/20/2012 Runtime: 01:35:10 Biography and Description Lucia Rios discusses her experiences with Spina Bifida and life in western Michigan. Transcript Bethanie: Ok, so my name is Bethanie Billing and I am here today February, Monday, February 20th, 2012 with Lucia Rios at Grand Valley State University downtown campus – Pew Campus. We are here today to talk about your experiences with civil rights in Western Michigan and now I’m going to read you the Oral History release form. Speaking Out: Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories. I, in your case Lucia Rios, hereby agree to participate in an interview in connection with the Oral History Project known as Speaking Out: Western Michigan’s Civil Right Histories at Grand Valley State University. I understand that the purpose of this project is to collect audio recorded oral histories as well as selected related documentary materials such as photographs and manuscripts from those knowledgeable about civil rights and civil rights activism in Western Michigan with the goal of preserving these materials and making them available for teaching and research. This may include publication in print, multimedia programs such as radio and television and the WWW among others. I understand that I may be identified by name subject to my consent. I may also be identified by name in any transcript whether verbatim or edited of such interviews subject to my consent. If I choose to remain anonymous, I know that audio recordings of my interview will be closed to use. My name will not appear in the transcript or reference to any material used in the interview. I know that in the case of choosing to remain anonymous, my interview will only be identified by an internal speaking out project tracking number. I understand the interview will take approximately two hours and that I can withdraw from the Page 1 �project without prejudice prior to the execution and delivery of this release form. In the event that I withdraw from the interview, any recordings made of the interview will either be given to me or destroyed and no transcript will be made of the interview. I understand that a photograph of me may be taken or borrowed for duplication and that if I withdraw from the project the photograph will be given to me and any copies made for the project will be destroyed. I understand that upon completion of the interview, subject to all of the other terms and conditions of this agreement, GVSU shall own the copyrights to this work and will be able to use it any manner it chooses including but not limited to use by researchers and students in presentations and publications but that I shall be given a perpetual license to use my contribution in any manner or any medium as long as I notify GVSU prior to such use. I understand that any restrictions as to the use of portions of the interview indicated by me will be edited out of the final copy of the transcript. I understand that upon the completion of this interview and signing the release, the recordings, photographs, and one copy of the transcript will be kept in Grand Valley State University’s Libraries Special Collections in Allendale, Michigan. If I have questions about the research project or procedures I know that I can contact Dr. Melanie Schellweis in the department of Liberal Studies, 227 Lake Ontario Hall, Grand Valley State University, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI 49404. Phone number (616) 331-0859 or via e-mail at shellm@gvsu.edu and then umm… you can choose to initial where you would like if you agree to be identified by name in any transcript or in reference to any information contained in this interview or you wish to remain anonymous in any transcript or reference to any information contained in this interview. Bethanie: Alright. So then we have to date them and sign them and then umm, we’d also like your address and phone number and then umm we’ll sign our names or I’ll sign my name. Lucia Rios: Ok. (laughs) Ryan: Also, just so you know the interview might not last the full two hours. Lucia Rios: Ok. Ryan: Our teacher said anywhere between 60 minutes to 90 minutes. Bethanie: However long we feel comfortable or you had a chance to tell us your story. Lucia Rios: Ok. Do I sign these too? Bethanie: Yes, please and then can you also sign this one because errr… Page 2 �Lucia Rios: Do you want me to put all the information down again? Bethanie: Umm, I think if you just sign yours and then I’ll and then your name and then I’ll sign my name because you get to take that copy with you. Lucia Rios: Ok. Bethanie: So that you know what you agreed to. (Laughing) Ryan: Plus you know where you live. (Laughing) Bethanie: Yeah. Lucia Rios: Yeah, I know. Ok. (silence, signing papers) Bethanie: Ok. So, ummm, do you want to start off giving us some background information about you like… Lucia Rios: Yeah. Bethanie: When you were born and where you were raised and… Lucia Rios: Ok. Bethanie: What it was like… Lucia Rios: Ok. (Laughing) Umm, well my name is Lucia Rios and I was born on March 26th, 1980 so I’m a little bit older than you guys (laughing) and I was actually born and raised in Holland, Michigan. And so umm, my parents are both Mexicans, American raised. My dad was born in Mexico but my mom was born in Indiana but my dad ended up becoming a U.S. citizen when he was, when he was I think younger. So then he moved here when he was like 6 so that’s kind of that. So umm, but I actually am the 3rd of 4 children. So I have two older sisters and then a younger brother and we are all two years apart so my mom and dad were very… (laughing) Julie: Consistent. Page 3 �Lucia Rios: (laughing) Consistent, yeah. So umm, but actually I’m the only one in my family, in my immediate family that has a significant disability so I was born with what’s called spina bifida Julie: Ok. Lucia Rios: And you’ve probably heard of it because it’s actually, umm, one of the most common birth defects. Umm, that’s been around. I mean, that’s very common so umm, it is umm, can be so severe that babies die when they are born and or but it can be very umm, not as severe where people don’t even notice it right away maybe until later on in life, I mean. You know it can be to the effect of where a baby can’t walk to people can walk but maybe they have some of the effects of the spina bifida. So, at one point while I was forming in my mom’s womb umm, my spinal cord opened up and so that was, everything was affected because of that. Umm, but luckily, my spinal cord closed where as some babies are born with open spines so they may have to have surgery right away and that type of thing. So I am pretty fortunate, actually. Umm, because I, I do use a wheel chair and I use crutches but ummm, I have a lot of mobility and I mean I wasn’t paralyzed and I’ve never had surgery on my back which a lot of children have and part of what’s spina bifida is a common thing is that babies are born with hydrocephalis, which is water on the brian. And so, ummm… Julie: Right. Lucia Rios: So I didn’t have to worry about that. I was not born with that. So I, I mean people kind of think that it’s funny when I say, “I’m actually pretty fortunate” because I am. I mean, it could have been a lot worse. Umm, but ummm, yeah. So I was born and my mom did not know until I was born. It’s funny because she says that she knew something was different because she said that you know how when babies are in the womb they kick… Ryan: Right. Lucia Rios: And I wouldn’t kick. I would just more like swim, it was like swimming… (Laughter) she could feel me swimming in there but I wasn’t like kicking. And so, but the doctors were like, “No, no. It’s ok. It’s ok.” Calm her down. But when I was born you know, she said that, you know, right away she knew something was wrong because umm, it was a long time, the birth. And then, the doctors she just kind of said, swarmed in like, “Ahhhh” you know and so you know, I was born with broken hips and my Page 4 �legs were kind of messed up (laughter) so I did have to have surgery on my legs when I was older though, not right away when I was a baby. So, ummm, but right away my mom just treated me like I was just a quote un-quote normal child. Ummm, but you know, she was, from the moment that I was born she already got a lot of people saying well she’s not gonna live, ummm, we can’t bring her into the room because she’s going to upset the other mothers who just had their babies. You know, things like that so right away she was, ummm, had to deal with the attitudes that people had against her child who was just a baby. Julie: Mmmhhmmm. Lucia Rios: Ummm, and so and against her for having the baby. So, umm, but you know, the doctors said, you know, you can put her in a home, you can leave her, and this is back in 1980 so it’s not like it was like the 60’s or the 50’s, you know. (mumbling in background) Lucia Rios: I was actually surprised that that was still going on. Umm, but you know, she took me home and just kind of raised me. So, ummm, but they were worried when my brother was born that he would have spina bifida as well but he turned out healthy, you know. And so, now they tell a lot of people eat folic acid. Take things with folic acid because they think that that might help prevent it. And I don’t know if it does. My mom says that she, she had a lot of foods with folic acid but you know it still ended up that way. Umm, so I think it is just kind of, I personally believe that it was, it was an event that happened and really it’s no one’s fault. Julie: Mmmhhmmm. Lucia Rios: I never blamed my mom. And I mean, I blamed God sometimes but that was sometimes when I was in college. (Laughter) But as far as, you know, it’s kind of something that happens so ummm, but you know that, they, they do try to bring more awareness about spina bifida but ummm, you know they don’t know if it’s genetic or not. Because like I said, no one in my family has it. The only other person in my family with a disability is more of a mental, well, cognitive disability. Ryan: Yeah. Page 5 �Lucia Rios: My aunt has a pretty significant, she’s more lower functioning. Umm, but with my dad’s side of the family they kind of put her in a home right away. So it was really interesting how that side of the family was like, “well, let’s just put it away” Julie: Yeah. Lucia Rios: And then, you know… Julie: Kind of sweep it under the rug. Lucia Rios: Yeah, sweep it under the rug. It was kind of like, and that was, well she was a lot older than me so that was back you know when you would expect that. So, but ummm, anyway, yeah, I mean I was umm, I guess, I mean, the whole ummm, I mean growing up, just you know, I never didn’t really know any differently because you know, it was just the way it was. Sophie: Did your mother ever like make it apparent to you that you were any different? Like, were you aware that you were different than other children? Lucia Rios: No, well it was when I started getting to be in middle school. Not, middle school, in elementary school. More when, I was getting older, umm, where kids umm, you know, would tease me sometimes, or you know I couldn’t play certain sports or do certain things. But, luckily, because of the community I grew up in and I grew up with, you know, I was in school by the time I was three years old. They thought, oh she has a disability you know, she has something wrong cognitively as well but that wasn’t the case. (Laughter) But, I mean, it did help me because umm, you know, it got me ahead. So, I was put in preschool when I was three and so luckily a lot of my, the people I went to school with, they grew up with me. So, I didn’t have to explain everything all the time. Umm, but I was in like kindergarten, I remember umm, bringing in my brace to show all my, ummm, all my, the classmates Interviewers: Mhhmmm. Lucia Rios: What it exactly was because the brace was like from mid chest all the way down and I was like a robot. (Laughter) But so, you know, there was a lot of education on my mom’s part and my teacher’s part to make sure that the students knew what was going on so that they wouldn’t tease or be scared or not be afraid to ask questions. And that, I think helped because I know that doesn’t always happen. Ryan: No. Page 6 �Lucia Rios: Umm, but you know my mom never told me that I was different. I never really felt like different until it was actually, like the actions of others that made me feel that something was wrong with me. And so, ummm, that’s kind of where it was especially in, I remember it starting in middle, elementary school which felt a little bit different or people looked at me a little bit more or people would tell me that I couldn’t do something or ummm. Or then, umm, when we’d go shopping and Holland is very conservative. Ryan: Right. Lucia Rios: And people would want to pray for me. (Laughter) People would want to pray for me and you know, people would come up to my mom and me in the grocery store and say, “If you have faith, she’ll be healed” type of thing. Interviewers: Oh. Lucia Rios: So that is kind of where actually, I started realizing that something is different with me. Because, you know, I was main-streamed when I was young. Umm, you know, the doctors appointments and things like that, it was just kind of that’s the way it always was. Umm, you know and I think the difference between me and maybe someone else who acquired a disability is that it is all I’ve known… Ryan: Right. Lucia Rios: So I don’t know what life is like without it. Where as, someone who maybe gets a spinal cord injury, they understand what life is like beforehand and then it is probably that much more harder to, to live with it or just to accept it. So, I think that’s kind of the way that it was. Ummm, my siblings all treated me the same and so did my cousins and I think they just kind of, they just, it was just the mentality of it’s just “Lucie” that’s what they called me. (Laughter) So you know, you know we’ll just accept her and that was really good. So I never really felt different from my family in that regards. Sophie: Was there ever a certain event that happened that you can remember, that you can remember distinctly when you realized, “oh well, like, I know that I’m different now” because of this certain event? Page 7 �Lucia Rios: Yeah, well I think it was when I was, ummm, as I was getting older and I was actually about fourteen years old. You know how when you’re young you daydream? You know, I was like oh I want to be a writer, oh I’m going to move to New York, oh I’m going to… (Laughter) Lucia Rios: But all those dreams that we had. And for some reason, I really thought it would be different when I grew up that I would not have the disability anymore, which is really weird to think because. And I think it partly because, I knew, at that point I knew that I was really different. You know, in middle school, I wasn’t the one that was into boys or into make-up because I was more focused on: oh, I’m gonna go to the doctor or this is going on or I had to miss school because of this. And so, I was more focused on that. And very, just like, it felt like I was a little bit, ummm, I had to think of things differently than some of my, my peers as well. But when I was fourteen years, I actually went to, umm, and I’m of shorter stature, and part of that is because of I’m, ummm, missing vertabraes in my neck and my spine. Umm, which you know, would make me a little bit shorter. (Laughter) Lucia Rios: And so, but I think that I always thought that I was going to get taller too and I don’t know why. And so, but when I was in the doctor’s office there was something, ummm, he had left and I don’t know where my mom was, she might have been there too, but I looked at my chart. And that’s the first time that I ever looked at like one of my charts and my chart was really thick. But on it, there was a word, and I can’t like, for the life of me, remember the word, but I know it was like, one of those things where it was like indefinitely, definitely – it’s gonna stay. It’s permanent. And when I saw that word it was almost like, ummm, it was almost like, it was, it was like the turning point as far as when I thought wow, this isn’t going to change. And I know it’s kind of, people think like, oh you were fourteen you should have known but… Ryan: Did that, did that hurt? Lucia Rios: I mean, that did. Ryan: Or like was it like this is how that’s going to be? You know, people can take that different ways. Lucia Rios: I think it did hurt at first because I thought, “Oh my gosh! You know, I’m not going to get taller. (Laughter) You know, and I’m not going to, and you know, wow, people are going to treat me Page 8 �differently forever.” And that’s where it hurt. It wasn’t me. And I always tell people this. I don’t feel like it’s the disability that’s a problem. Or umm, my problem but it’s the attitudes and the way others treat me and react that make the disability, ummm, a barrier. Ryan: Yeah. Lucia Rios: Because, you know, I go about and I do things. I can drive, I work, I have my own place. You know, I’m doing all this stuff. I’ve gone to college. So I haven’t let it affect me. But then, the people who are out there who say, “oh are you sure you can do that? Or, oh do you drive? Or, you work part-time, right?” Those are the things that really… Ryan: Yeah. Lucia Rios: Those are the things, that really, that cause the barriers. Ryan: Yeah. Lucia Rios: Because of the attitudes. Or a facility, an inaccessible building. If there is not an elevator, I couldn’t get up here. Or, you know, if there are stairs to a good, a popular restaurant, I can’t go in that is the barrier, not the disability. And so, umm, I think that’s kind of, how, how my view point is now to it. I don’t have a problem with it. It’s more others have a problem with it and sometimes I wonder why because I’m the one that lives with it, you know. (Laughter) Lucia Rios: So, I mean, but I mean, that, that when I was fourteen that was the moment that it changed. I remember going home and being so upset. And looking at my jeans and saying, you know, I’m never going to wear, like, adult jeans. You know, things like that. I mean, the little things. And then I thought well, you know, also, at that time I was told that I couldn’t have children either. Sophie: Really, wow. Lucia Rios: Yeah, at fourteen. So I mean, so then, that stuff too. And you know when you are little you think, oh I’m going to have a family, I’m going to have this… Sophie: Yeah. Lucia Rios: So just all of that stuff combined just kind hit home with me. Page 9 �Sophie: Yeah, are you really family oriented? Like I feel like you would be… Lucia Rios: Yeah. Yup. Yeah. Sophie: How did that information affect you because I know, like personally, family is a big thing for me too? Lucia Rios: Yeah, I mean it was, it was hard because I was, because you know you dream of all these things when you are young and you know, you talk with your friends and say, “oh you know, you’re gonna have kids…” and oh! I’m sorry! You’re a boy… and girls having periods and… (laughter) that type of thing and I didn’t have those. You know, those types of things just made me feel a little bit more different, you know, kind of like not as part of the group of people. So… Ryan: How do you feel, because I know you said that from the get go, you said that in middle school that was when you could really tell that you, that you felt different? Lucia Rios: Mhmmm. Ryan: Are you thankful that for that? Do you think that helped you in any way? Lucia Rios: Yeah, I mean… Ryan: Are you able to see things from a different point of view? Lucia Rios: Yeah, I mean, you know, it’s ok. It depends on the day, but yeah. For the most part, my attitude is I really believe that I am a spiritual person, you know, but I believe that there is a reason for my, you know, having a disability. Ryan: Right. Lucia Rios: You know, especially, because you know, with my four siblings, I was the only one that actually went to college and graduated from high school without having children. A lot of my sib… my cousins all had kids right away. So, I was the one who actually followed their dream of what they wanted to do and I think that if I didn’t, if I didn’t have the disability I wouldn’t be, you know, know that I really love writing. I wouldn’t, ummm, be as sensitive to other people as well. Ummm, and also, wouldn’t use my mind to get myself to different places, and also, yeah. I mean, because I would be like, kind of how my, my family is from generations has been working in a factory, hating my job, you know, that stuff. Bethanie: Mhhmmm. Page 10 �Lucia Rios: So I think that I had to use my mind more than I had to use anything else because I knew that I couldn’t just go into the factory and get a job. Ryan: Yeah. Yeah, to me, it seems like it’s a bit of a blessing. Lucia Rios: Yeah, I do believe that. And people think it’s kind of… people wonder why. People ask, “if you had a magic pill, would you change it?” and I’m like, “I don’t know if I would” because it’s given me a lot of opportunities and it would be very, ummm, I think I would be very naïve about the world as well. Ryan: Yeah. Lucia Rios: I mean, I see people at their best and I see people at their worst as far as the way that they treat others. Ummm, I’ve never been discriminated against because of, ummm, being a Mexican. I have been discriminated against a lot because of my disability. So… Sophie: I feel like you are a very strong person. Like you are a person who you are given an opportunity and you actually go after it… Lucia Rios: Mhhmmm. Sophie: Was there any point in your life where you, you had, like, a turning point where you had to decide, like, I can either get over it or I can use this, like, in your life? Lucia Rios: I mean, yeah. It was, it was actually in college. Sophie: Was it? Lucia Rios: It was. I mean, because I think at that point, you know, don’t get me wrong, I was very independent when I was young. My mom always made sure I was, but I still was very coddled as well. Ummm, you know, I was very, you know, my siblings took care of me, my mom took care of me, ummm, people around me took care of and at that school. So actually, when I went off to college I went to Western University in Kalamazoo, actually, I had to kind of fend for myself. I say it was a real eye opener because I had to get to class by myself in my wheelchair, use transportation, ummm, figure out how I was gonna eat, where I was gonna eat. You know, all of that stuff, and so, I think that was where it was like, I was, I did go through a lot and I won’t lie a lot of depression during that time (laughter) you know, like any student. But, I think that especially, and I kind of joked, that was when I kind of blamed God, you know because I was still trying to figure out, I mean, especially with all, I mean high school, I was so glad Page 11 �to get out of high school, but college is such a different story. I mean, you still try to fit in and you’re not the ideal looking person like everyone else is blonde haired and blue eyed. (Laughter) Ryan: Yeah. Lucia Rios: I mean, it’s just not, there’s so much people look at you and they are like, “Oh my gosh!” You know, where as, you know, and I joke around with my nephew because you know, he’s a teenager now and we talk about how people treat other people. And I say, “you know what?” I said, “I’m like ‘F’-ed up on the outside , you know…” (Laughter) Lucia Rios: And that’s what I say, “that’s how some people feel on the inside. So mine is on the outside, I can’t hide it, you know.” And he’s like, “no, you’re not.” But I think it’s kind of funny because it’s true. It’s like people can see it. I can’t hide anything, where as, other people can hide what they are feeling or how they feel or how they feel that they look, you know. So, ummm, yeah, college was that time where I was I had to come to terms with it. And finally, and a friend actually told me, he was like, “you have it. You need to deal with it.” And he didn’t have a disability and he was like, “you need to get over it already!” (Gasp. Laughter) Sophie: Really? Wow. Lucia Rios: Yeah, you either dwell on it forever or you need to accept it. So I had to accept it. And so, it was hard. It is not like I did it over night. I wrote a lot of sad poetry and I wrote a lot of blogging. And I did all that stuff. I did blogging before it was cool. (Laughter) Lucia Rios: So, you know, but I mean, I was a journaler so I’d write a lot and so now I look back at my, my, at those journals and I’m like, “Oh my gosh! I was so depressed!” (Laughter) Bethanie: Awwww…. Lucia Rios: But you know, it helped me though. It helped me know and to be not afraid to express how I feel. And I think I try to do that when I talk to people, especially other’s with disabilities or people to try to help them understand about disabilities is that it’s not ummm, I’m not gonna try to hide how I felt. Page 12 �You know, I’m not this, you know, I know people have the impression that people with disabilities as 1.) either very bitter, mean, (Laughter) don’t want any help. Or they see them as you know, like super gimp, like someone who is just like an inspiration, over come the odds, all of that stuff. But you know, I feel like I’m kind of in the middle. I’m like I have these different things that I’ve dealt with but I also, I’m just trying to live my life. And so, you know, so, you know, when people talk to me, when I talk to people about it, I tell them how what I’ve experienced and stuff because I’m not gonna pretend like I was happy all the time to have it because I wasn’t. And I think if you talk to a lot of different people with disabilities, even hidden disabilities… Ryan: Yeah. Lucia Rios: People will tell you that it’s not easy and there is an internal struggle. And so, I mean, and like I said, some days I, I still get annoyed and I still get upset but sometimes, it’s those constant things like, you know five people asking if I need help just as I’m walking down the sidewalk. Bethanie: Mmhhmmm. Lucia Rios: Or someone looks at me, and it’s not children that bother me, it’s the adults. (Laughter) Lucia Rios: Or someone will say something like, “Oh you need a snowblower on that thing!” or you know, things like that. Like, seriously?! Those types of things. That’s when it really picks at me and then I’m like, I just wanna… Sophie: Yeah. Lucia Rios: I just wanna get upset but then it’s kind of like, I don’t do it in public if I get upset. But then, I’m usually better afterward so… (25:12) Bethanie: Did you notice once you went to college that it was a little bit more difficult because you weren’t around the same people all the time... Lucia: (Interrupted): Yeah... Bethanie (continued :) Like, you said, like going like though like elementary, middle school, and high school Page 13 �Lucia (Interrupted): Yep Bethanie (continued): You had lots of the same kids Lucia (Interrupted): Yep, Yep Bethanie: So... Lucia: (Interrupted): Yep, same kids, same teachers. And when I went to, um, college I actually experienced discrimination for the first time... (Background): Okay Lucia: And I think that was what, you know, eh, discrimination for the first time but also accessibility issues experience like what it was really like to be someone with a disability, trying to be independent. Sophy: Uh-huh Lucia: But, um, you know, the fact that the discrimination was from a professor of mine, my English professor, and Sophy (Interrupted): Really... Lucia: Yeah, so it was really, um, it was really difficult, um, just because, um, he would do it, I don’t know why, I don’t know if he felt uncomfortable with me or what but he would say inappropriate comments to me, uhmm, you know he’d call me crippled, um, he said I had that going against me along with being a woman and a minority. You know, things like that, um he would say things about my, about the things I wrote as well, as far as like, writing about my disability even though this class was like an English 101 class and we were supposed to write about you know, what it, it was my first semester, like what it, write about what it was like to be away from home. Sophy (Interrupted): um-hum Lucia: You know so things like that, so you know. So um, he’d do a lot of it in private, cause he’d always wanna meet, he was kinda a weird guy. He’d always want to meet with his students in private for meetings and so he’d always want to do it in private. He’d write on my papers different things saying that I was trapped in a mental wheelchair, you know, things like that. It was just really weird and so actually, it actually helped me though. I, um, didn’t let him continue to do that, and it was through the Page 14 �help of another friend who encouraged me, and we actually went to the head of the English Department to talk about him, and what he was doing and I brought her all the evidence and everything. And... Sophy (Interrupted): That’s really good... Lucia (continued): And so, I was glad that I didn’t let that get me um, I didn’t let him continue to get me like that, um, I still went through the class, um you know, I got a C in the class and I felt like it wasn’t the dis- grade I deserved, so I ended up taking the class by a different professor the next semester and I got an A. (Giggles) Lucia: So I mean, you know, but I think that was actually helpful because I don’t think I would have known about advocacy for myself because I had never had to do it myself. Sophy (Interrupted) um-hum Lucia: Um, because my friend went with me but she didn’t talk for me, she didn’t do it for me; she just could see what it was doing to me and what it was like... (Interrupted): yeah... Lucia: Um, so I think that was the part, and the thing is that wasn’t just, because at first I thought I was just being sensitive, but um, other people in the class were noticing it, as well because he would also say something’s in class and they would say something to me like, “what is he doing?”. So then I knew, “Okay, well then, it’s not just me” type of thing, but you know my mom at that time, um, she really missed me and she kind of, in that too, she really was a caretaker of me, and so she would encourage me to come home, “oh, it’s okay, you tried, come home” you know and I didn’t let you know because a lot of the time I wanted to, but I didn’t let it though, (Interrupted): um-hmm Lucia: …and I’m glad I didn’t though you know. And so after that first semester, I started doing more on campus, getting more involved, um, kind of being more, looking out more for barriers, and writing about what barriers people with disabilities faced. So... Bethanie: Did you find, like what sort of barriers did you like, face like, as far as accessibility and stuff Lucia :( Interrupted): Yep, eh Page 15 �Bethanie (continued)...In college? Lucia: Um, you know, um buildings you know Western was really old. Some of the places were old, some of the buildings that lacked accessibility, elevators that weren’t’ working so sometimes I couldn’t even get to my classes, um, you know the automatic door openers were broken, and that wasn’t like necessarily I wasn’t upset about that because of me but then I started meeting other people with disabilities and realizing some of the limitations that others had as well. Like one of my friends, who has othoratory arthritis, and I’m still friends with her today, and she um, if the button wasn’t working she had to wait outside for someone to open it for her. Rain, snow, sunshine, whatever (Background): um-hum Lucia: And that frustrated me and angered me more than myself not going and being able to go and open it myself because I had the strength to open it she physically couldn’t go over there and do that. So that’s kind of what, what I did, um like what prompted me to get more involved and um, I started, um and was really um, the person from the disable student services at Western, she knew me very well.. (Laugh) (Background laughing along) Lucia: Um because I would call there and she then she would give me numbers to call if like people to fix things and stuff like that. Snow removal was a big thing, not just for students who, I mean for any student who, I mean for everyone, it was a big deal but especially if you had to use a wheelchair, crutches or something like that so... Bethanie: Were your classes really spaced out? I mean I know Grand Valley sometime, I complain about a ten minute walk and then like if you have to go from like mackinaw to the ones on the far side... Lucia: Yeah Bethanie: Like Lake Ontario... Lucia: Yep... Bethanie: Or whatever, in the snow. Is it spread out? Page 16 �Lucia: Luckily is it, luckily I was able to use the disabilities services, which I didn’t even know that there were places like that which helped people with disabilities until I got to college. Um they, I was able to register early so that I could space out, get my classes the way that I needed them... (Interrupted): okay... Lucia: So I could get to class to class in time. So it was kinda nice so I didn’t have to take the morning classes... (Laughing) (Laughing in agreement) Lucia: You know the Friday 8 AM things like that. But it also helped me so I knew how much time I had to get to class, but like sometimes, in some of the buildings, the bathrooms weren’t accessible so I would have to go before I went to class, and if you had a three hour class, or two hour class, I mean Sophy (interrupted): Oh, that‘s a, long time.. Ryan (Interrupted): You could be uncomfortable. Lucia: Yeah, exactly, so things like that and you know my degree um, I was going into Journalism, so I had a lot of writing classes, so what I would do was um, when we were able to pick issues, I would write about accessibility because I thought, “well I can’t just complain about it, I need to educate others about it”.. (Background): um-hmm Lucia: And so I stated educating others through my writing, through my articles and then they’d say, “What can we do to help?” And I would say, “Call too!”... (Giggles) (Laughing) Lucia: “Here’s the number, say something. It’s, it doesn’t have to be just me doing it”, so. That’s where I started to get more involved in the whole disability movement; I guess you can say (laughing) (Laughing) Bethanie: Um, did you have to do any, like internships for school or like work with any organizations, like um, I know you work with Disability NetLucia (Interrupted): Network, uh-hmm Page 17 �Bethanie: …now how did yo- how did you get connected to something like that outside of school? Lucia: Okay, well you know when I was in school, I did this really big paper about accessibility in Kalamazoo and I was a- actually a- able to connect, because Disability Network is based on what’s called a Center for Independent Living so there are about 5 to 6 hundred throughout the United States. Bethanie: OK. Lucia: And so everywhere you go, you can contact your local, CIL, that’s what they call them. And so it actually started back in the 70’s in Berkley, California and kinda like just spread across the, the whole united states, and um, helping people in different, different types of people access the different resources that may- that they nee- may need, whether it’s employment, whether its housing, whether its nursing, getting out of nursing homes. You know that’s kinda the big- where it started at. You know people were um, in Berkley there, they weren’t able to go to school or they weren’t able to live in the dorms and they were forced to live sometimes in nursing homes, they didn’t have a tenant care. So that’s kinda how it all started with these individuals with really significant disabilities. Like I’m talking like people that were paralyzed from the, you know, from the head down, that started that because they wanted the same rights as people without disabilities on campus. And so it just turned into this whole big movement that is still, goes on today, and um, like in Michigan there are about 14 centers for independent living. One actually is in, um, Kent County which is Disability Advocates of Kent County. And so each Center for Independent Living focuses on their own ar-areas, so our, ours is Ottawa, Allegan Counties... (Background): okay Lucia: Um, you know Kalamazoo has one where they focus on some of their counties, so um, you know were not like territorial, we’re not like, “Oh, we’re better than you” ..(Laughing) (Laughing) Lucia: But, each community is just different, as far as what there, there need is. Um we do a lot in our organization for community work that is not just good for people with disabilities; it’s good for the whole community. Whereas, in Kalamazoo, they do a lot of case management with some of their, their clients, because that’s what’s needed there. Page 18 �(Mumbling) Lucia: So it really depends but um, actually when I had that paper, I um, found out about the Center for Independent Living in Kalamazoo and I had never heard of it, um and I was like maybe a junior when I first found out about it, so it was like, you know it as like small steps... (Agreeing): Hmm-hmm Lucia: Um, but then I also found another group actually that um, was a, a group that started in Kalamazoo that they helped people with disabilities and they, you know, they helped with certain basic needs, but also worked as advocates as well, and I can’t remember what the name is now, but I know that I um, stayed- I went there for a whole day, interviewed them all and just like, was so like, “WOW“ you know , people actually do this.. Um, so it’s- but I got my job is um, though, when I was in high school, I- one of these, (stutter) I was(Giggle) Lucia: There’s an article written about me about overcoming the odds, type of article you know, people write those as far as like, “so and so was homeless and still they- and still they went to school”. You know mine was, “She had a disability and she’s going to college now” so that was what the article was. So, the same writer who wrote about me when I was in high school, um, was looking for Thanksgiving Day stories because I graduated in December, um o I went to school for 4 and a half years and so she was looking for Thanksgiving Day stories, and so one of my, like she’s like my second mother, works in the school district in Holland, and she saw the e-mail and said, “Oh My Gosh, you need to write about so and so” you know, that type of thing, and the woman’s like “oh I remember her, I wrote her in high school”.. (Giggles) Lucia: So she thought she’d write an article about, “oh, a girl who overcomes the odds” you know “from high school and graduated from college now and an aspiring journalist” and you know that type of thing. So she wrote this article and actually it was kinda cool cause a photographer followed me around and um, you know she talked to teachers, she talked to different people. You know it was just a really big article and it was really nice ad it ran in the Kalamazoo Kazett and the Holland um- The Grand Rapids Press, but at the time, they had a Lakeshore Edition, when you know when the newspapers were a little bit more thriving …(laughing) Page 19 �Sophy (Agreeing): uh-hmm Lucia: And had a Lakeshore Edition that went all around the Lakeshore. Well the executive director in it, she talked about how my- I was advocating for accessibility on campus and how I was involved in student council and how you know, I kind of, got my voice though school, and was very passionate about people with disabilities and that I and that I had my own disabilities as well. Well the executive director saw it and um, for Disability Network, and she called me as I was working one day at school an said, “So, uh, we have an opening for a job, would you like an interview?” and I was like “Sure, why not.” (Giggles) Lucia: Because I didn’t have anything going on at the time, you know I was just ready to be done with school then I was just going to focus on, what next because at the time, I still needed to get my license... Because I was waiting until I was done with school to get my license and you know all that stuff, so I was waiting until all that was done. So I got a job- well I uh, interviewed two times and she offered me a part time position doing accessibility work in Holland- and Ottawa and Allegan counties. And so that’s kinda how I started and I’ve kinda been there- I started part time but then um, was also able to work at the Newspaper as well, the Grand Rapids Press for a short time, um. So I was doing both jobs, taking drivers training, I finally learned how to drive, which is good. And then um, I took it in Grand Rapids, so um, (laughing) (Laughing) Lucia: It was horrible, but- and I drive with hand control, so I was able- that gave me more independence. And so I was working both jobs and my boss at Disability Networks, said “I’d really would like you full time” and I said, “well, no I can’t” cause I wanted to do both. Writing was my first love and so I thought “no I can’t” but then, that, that desire to do more in the community um, was so great that, the second time she asked me, I said “ok”. Sophy: Hm-hum Lucia: And since I’ve been full time, and I’ve been there now, 9 years. Bethanie: That’s a long time... Lucia: Yeah...it’s a long time... (Interrupted laughter) Page 20 �Lucia: I know... Ryan: time flies by... Lucia: It does yeah, and the thing is, through that I’ve actually been able to do um, I’ve seen community change. I mean, accessibility, it can take years... Sophy: Mm-hmm Lucia: Forum, um, to be completed. But for people to finally get- oh yeah that’s a good idea, uum. So I’ve been able to see the change happen, but also, um because of the opportunity, I found out so much more about disability um, his-the history, but also what’s going on in the state of Michigan, regarding um, the disability rights movement and how-you know, I was excited when you sent the e-mail to me because that’s kind of something people don’t think about right away.. Sophy: Hm-hmm Lucia: They see the oh, there’s the civil rights, which the disability rights movement spawned off the Civil Rights, you know the whole, with that all came, you know so. Um then of course, the LGBTQ movement, all that stuff then they have the Woman’s Lib type stuff. But disability is just a little, little thing that people just don’t think about, but there have been a lot of big- great strides, but there’s still a lot more that needs to be done. Um, so I was excited to be involved in that, and um, you know and I mean I was still happy to do my writing thing but just in a different capacity, so. Bethanie: Um, did you find it, um, more enjoyable, err, um, exciting because it was happening in your home community Lucia: Yeah Bethanie: Like in Holland… Lucia: Yeah Bethanie: Or in that area where you grew up? Lucia: Yeah. I was, I was excite because um, you know I came back um, and left like a little girl, you know and not really knowing anything and then I came back um, with just, um, so much desire to change the world, you know I mean, and especially my community. And I had a voice too, like I wasn’t afraid to speak my mind, I wasn’t worried about what people would think, um, so I think that was, um, that that Page 21 �was the change as well, but I was able to um, yeah that made it exciting that I was able to um, that I was part of this bigger movement than just- you know I felt like I had a purpose in some of it. That I could educate people, and that’s actually what my job, I’m able to do a lot of education and teach students about um, disabilities, employment. I work a lot with youth and disabilities you know, um ad so you know I do a lot just to educate so, um, educating just by giving presentations to people all in business suits and stuff. And it feels good to be the person people look to for answers in that respect, you know, because you know, they actually want to know what you have to say. Where before I hated speech class, I hated talking in front of people; I could never do it. Because I thought my voice wasn’t, didn’t matter. It gave me more of a purpose. Bethanie: Do you like getting or interviewing, err, not interview um, presenting and talking to kids more or like people in like what you said, in business suits... Lucia: Yeah... Bethanie: Like what did you find more enjoyable? Lucia: I um, I really liked the teenagers, um, and that’s what I work a lot with. I have a program, we call it the um, the Yes Program. What it is, is it teaches children how to get and keep jobs, um, art-particularly kids with disabilities. Um, and a lot of them, you know adults; you know are kinda setting their ways, so they’re- they are scared, of the unknown. Whereas teenagers, especially, the teenagers who we deal with are more the rougher, at risk kids, they will accept you for who you are right away. If you’re open with them, they’ll be open with you, and so right away I just come out and say, “Alright, I’m in a wheel chair” you know, “this is what- why it is, if you have any questions, let me know, but make sure you ask questions that you wouldn’t mind answering too”. And so that usually clears it up and then they have that respect and they, you know, its not- they never- it’s never brought up again. Whereas adults (chuckles)... (Laughing) Lucia: It’s a bit different. You know, as far as, they’re still not sure if they should ask me the question or they say inappropriate things or if they should avoid me because they don’t you know- or some of them get really excited about it and say “oh my gosh, thank you so much for teaching me this”, so. I’d say I enjoy the teen a lot more but I don’t mind the adults. I think some of the time I think it’s funny because some of the things that come out of their mouths (chuckles) Page 22 �(Laughing) Lucia: And then it’s like, “oh my gosh” so. But yeah I mean I just like educating people about differences because I think everyone’s different, but um, you know. And some of it seems so common sense too Sophy: Yeah Lucia: But people need that I guess (chuckle) Bethanie: Did you have a certain mentor who educated you, as far as like certain things you can do to be more active, err... Lucia (Interrupted): Well, IBethanie (Finishing): or encouraged you to go to school or things like that? Lucia: Yeah, I mean growing up I um, there was a, a, a woman I still- her name’s Ellen Westvier and she um, was a social worker through the Holland Public Schools, and they made me talk to her , like when I was like in 3rd grade, because I didn’t talk, or I wouldn’t talk to them or I wouldn’t tell them what I needed so they were afraid that my needs weren’t being met because they wanted to make sure I was okay in the classroom and all that stuff. Sophy: Hm-hmm Lucia: So they made me talk to her and stuff because they thought, “okay, maybe she needs you know, some help with that” and we actually just you know- she actually treats me like her daughter now and she’s like my second mother. And, but she really, um always encouraged me growing up and you know, we talked about the disability as well and um, I still- I still see her as a mentor, you know she is successful in her career and so she just you know she just encouraged me you know when my mom said, “oh, come home” Ellen would say, “You better not go home!”.. (Laughing) Lucia: You know, type of thing, “no!” you know, that type of thing. So as far as disabilities, I’m just really encouraged and inspired, and I hate that word, “inspired” but it’s true. By other people with disabilities have done so much more than even, anything that I’ve done. I mean I’ve been able, through this job I’ve been able to meet a lot of different people because through conferences or through the state, um, and I’m on different committees, so I’ve been able to meet a lot of other people with disabilities who have, Page 23 �you know, just a feel of don’t so much. And that really encourages me as well, you feel some sort of connection as well, but understanding too... Sophy: Uh-huh Lucia: You know, where there’s disability conferences, I’m so excited to go to some of them because it’s almost like going to summer camp. You know, you go to summer camp, and everyone’s like you… Sophy: Yeah Lucia: … And you talk about the same thing; you don’t have to worry about anything. It’s kinda like that, and so... Sophy: That’s really good Lucia: And I never had that before, um growing up, you know. Ryan: not at all, being... Lucia: So... Ryan: Being a minority... Lucia : (Interrupted) yeah Ryan: like it, mi-mi- minority in the sense that whi- you know with the disability whereas the majority of people do not have disabilities... Lucia: Yeah, exactly... Ryan: you know eh, it- like you said, being around people that, you have not similar interests to but you share characteristics of... Lucia: Yep exactly, yeah. You do yeah, and it- It’s fun too, when you go to these, like we all went- there was a conference, it’s the Adiam Symposium, which I’ve gone a few times and it was in Las Vegas... (Laughing) Lucia: It was like, it was so fun though because there were so many people, and it’s like disability galore there! Page 24 �(Laughing) Lucia: It cool, it’s like we just- you hang out, you just get to know people, you hang out with them you get to know them, you meet them, and you still connect. And so at the conference it’s like every otheryou know it’s just normal to see someone walking with a cane and someone who’s blind walking together talking. You know it’s just normal to see someone in a wheel chair and someone without in a wheelchair talking together you know. And I’m just- when I-you know some of us had talked about, i wonder what people must think, especially these visitors from the other- other countries... (laughing) (Everyone laughing) Sophy: yeah. Lucia (continued): ...like oh my gosh, Las Vegas is like, (laughing)... there's a lot of people there like that... you know so. But it’s fun though because you know, you know when you're with people that youi don’t if any of you guys are in sororitiesSophy (agreeing): Mm-hmm, yep... Lucia (continued): or fraternities Ryan (interrupted): different groups and organizations... Lucia (continued): different groupsRyan: yeah... Lucia (continued): Okay, and how you feel some sort of connection with those people Sophy (agreeing): Oh yeah... Lucia: Um, its kinda like that, and you don't care what anyone thinks, you just are together and err, it's kinda like, so.. Sophy: its' kinda like unity, like with- power from unity... Lucia (interrupted): yeah, exactly, yeah so... but it’s also kinda fun to see peoples looks too... and everything like that so(Background): yeah... Page 25 �Lucia: yeah, so... Sophy: I’m curious, um, you seem like really really busy and like, okay by yourself but do you think you have any disconnect from like, your personal life? LikeLucia: Oh, (laughing) Sophy: Or I mean, likeLucia: well you know, I (laughing)... (All together laughing) Lucia: I think I do really keep busy, you know, and i, i ha- I actually... (Laughing) (All together laughing) Sophy: sorry (laughing) Lucia: oh no, no it's fine. It’s funny because my family tells me all the time that like, 'we never hear from you...” (Together laughing) Lucia (continued): you know. "You’re always so busy" and I am, I-I think I get bored if I’m not... busy... Sophy (agreeing): Mm-hmm Lucia (continued): like, i-i- have to do things, like um; right now I do freelance writing too... (Agreeing): Mm-hmm... Lucia (continued): you know... (Laughing) (Group laughs) Lucia: I do that stuff to you know you, I like to be involved in the community, and I like to spend a lot of time with my nieces and nephews for now, getting to be teenagers. And i did have, for a while there, for like four years, i had uh- I was in a relationship. You know, but unfortunately that didn't- we didn't um, you know... Sophy (agreeing): yeah... Page 26 �Lucia (continued): work out, but... um, I don't know, i mean I’m just always- I’m very social, so i always wanna be out and about and meeting new people and doing things. So, but yeah that is something that I do need to work on too, is just... Sophy (interrupted): balancing... Lucia (continued): Balancing it, yeah. Because sometimes i think it’s so run down... (Background): yeah... Lucia: ... and my sisters are like, "oh my gosh you need to stop, you're so busy"... (Group laughs) Lucia: but i think that um, i don't know if it feels like um, it gives me purpose, or I’m trying like- and i-I thought about this too, when I was little, people would say, 'oh you can't do that' and I would say, 'oh wanna see me?' and I’d do it.. (Group laughs) Lucia: and i don't know if i still have that mentality, where people say, 'oh, you can't do that' and I'd say, 'well, yeah wanna see me?'... (Group laughs) Lucia: so i think some of that is still there, you know as far as that... Sophy (agreeing :) yeah Lucia (continue)... so yeah. Yeah. Bethanie: As far as giving you a purpose, um, do you-I know you said earlier like, err, you're very spiritual and stuff... Lucia (agreeing): mm-hmm Bethanie (continue): like how does- how do you think that connects into how you've dealt with it... Lucia: yeah... Bethanie: or how you've, accepted it or how you've uh, you're going to uh, do good things and like... Page 27 �Lucia: yeah... Bethanie: advocate for it instead of being bitter about it... Lucia: mm-hmm, yeah. Bethanie: or mad or angry like you said. Lucia: well i think that like, I-I without, you know, without... because i think if i didn't have like some sort of spiritual, or if i didn't believe that there was a purpose, I wouldn't- I wouldn't probably wanna exist. (Background): mm-hmm Lucia: You know, because like i had said before, disabilities is very difficult because, um, more of it is other people, and the way that they see you, um and those things, and how they can really affect you, and make you really not want to be around.. Bethanie: mm-hmm Lucia: you know, so i think that-I had that hope that there is someday, that I will know, that there is a bigger purpose than just being here. There’s a purpose that He has for me... Bethanie: Mm-hmm Lucia: for the way that this was. because for a while there I drove myself crazy wanting to know why and that gives me some sort of relieve that I will know eventually and If i didn't, i would like very, yeah. Like i said I would s - yeah... (Bethanie laughs) Lucia: you know i also feel it because you know a lot of people- my mom said that, 'you wouldn't live overnight', 'you wouldn't live here', 'you wouldn't live to be a teenager', 'you wouldn't live this-' and finally they said, 'oh i think she's okay now'. (Group chuckle) Lucia: you know also, I guess um, yeah i don't know, I just, um just the feeling too. You know ju-just knowing that... I just feel... I just feel it-I don't know how to explain it... Ryan (interrupted): being fulfilled? Page 28 �Lucia: Yeah, i guess being fulfilled... Ryan: (interrupted): being rewarded... Lucia: Yeah... Ryan: by what you do... Lucia: Yeah, and I guess, I guess, like I said, if i didn't have that hope that someday I will know, then we all-because we all wanna know, what’s your purpose'.. Bethanie: mm-hmm, right... Lucia: what’s your purpose, what do you- what's why? You know and if i didn't have that I would be you know... (Group agrees): yeah... Lucia: I would be so... I would not wanna... exist. Bethanie: Did you find your spiritual community to be more encouraging or discouraging because I know you said, 'if you prayed for her, then she'd be healed', err, other things like that? Lucia: yeah that's always been something because I was born and raised Catholic, but I-I don't practice Catholicism, which my mom’s like, 'what have I done wrong?’... (Group chuckles) Lucia (continues): it’s not like I’m a Satanist or anything... (Laughing) (Group laughs) Lucia: you know I just don't practice Catholicism, you know- you know I’m a Christian, you know but. So anyways, it’s just kinda funny but uh, um, yeah, that’s the struggle too, is that people, um, you know dating back to when I was little um, in my first um, um, what’s that called, um what’s that called, confession, you know where the-the priest said, you know I told him what I’d done, i don't remember i was like eight or nine, you know.. (Laughing) (Group laughs) Page 29 �Lucia: and he said, he seemed so, just very like, disappointed and he said, 'don't you want to walk with god in heaven?' And i didn't walk, the regular way, and that really upset me because what are you saying because that- he told me I wasn't going to walk with God when I went to heaven. You know, that type of thing because I didn't even know if after this life, if like i said, you know, I am fine in a wheelchair in crutches, I get around, i move around, that type of thing. Um, I’ve never wanted to walk regularly, i guess, you know cause I can; i just do it in a different way. Um, but um, i know people have said, 'do you think you'll be healed in Heaven' or 'what’s healing like?' 50:30 Lucia: “…with God? In heaven? And I didn’t walk, like the regular way, and that really upset me because I’m like, uh, what are you saying? You know, that lie that I told? That I’m not going to get to walk in heaven? You know, that type of thing. Thinking that, you know, cuz I don’t even know if after this life, if, you know, like I said, you know, I am fine in a wheel chair or in crutches, I get around, I move around, that type of thing, um, you know, I’ve never wanted to walk regularly, I guess. Bethanie: Mhm Lucia: You know, I mean, cuz I can, I just do it in a different way, um, but,um, you know, I know people have said, do you think you’ll be healed in heaven? Or what’s healing like? And that’s really what’s really something where I, um, the church I used to go to, people would constantly ask me if I wanted to get, if they could pray for my healing, and that annoys me cuz it’s like, well what’s wrong with me? God made me in his image, right? Bethanie: Mhm Lucia: We’re all in his image. But, you’re saying that I need to be healed, from what? You know? So I think that’s where, that’s where I’m conflicted, as far as, you know, spiritually, I know where I’m at and I, I read the bible, I do devotions, I do that type of thing, but as far as other people and how they are, um, in that context, in a spiritual, in church, and stuff like that, um, they make you feel like you are, um, because you know, God would want you to be healed, because, um, He does it in the bible, but you know also, He needed to show His power and part of that was through people, I don’t know necessarily, I think that if God wanted me healed, He would heal me, right now. Bethanie: Right. Page 30 �Lucia: But that’s not what He has in mind for me, so… Ryan: And that doesn’t take away from what kind of person you are, the things you do… Lucia: No, yeah. Ryan: Cuz it hasn’t stopped you yet, I mean. Lucia: Exactly, so yeah, I think that, I think that’s a big issue that I have with the church (group laughter) and stuff is people want to heal you, they think that something is wrong with you. Um, I’ve had people come up to me, one woman came up to me in Target one time, and I was shopping by myself, and she comes up and she says, “Can I pray for you?”, and I don’t mind if people want to pray for me, or I pray for people, whatever, um, but, you know, at that point, I’m like, what gives you the right to do that to me? And other people were like, looking to see what I’d say, and I said, “Why?”. You know, and that was the first time I had ever stuck for myself, like, why? Instead of saying, “oh, no thanks” or “okay”, you know, cuz that’s uncomfortable, you know? Um, and she went on in this long story about how she was diagnosed with, I don’t know if it was like, MS, and how she, um, had, um, people pray for her, and then she was healed, and she didn’t have to use a wheel chair and all this other stuff. So she would like to pray for me, and I told her, “No”. And she looked at me like I had slapped her. Like, I had offended HER. And she left, and I’m like, seriously? Why would you do that? I mean, you know, you say you’re some, you know, person who wants to pray for people, but then I was thinking, why not her, over there? She might be struggling with something. And you’re not asking her, you’re asking me, because of the way that I look. When really, I was fine, you know, going about my day. So, those types of things happen. Um, you know, people who say, “I’m going to pray for your healing” and point to my legs. And I’m like, that’s not what…that’s not what needs to be healed, it’s more inside that needs to be healed. It’s not the legs. It’s not the, so I can run around. It’s other things. And so I think people don’t understand, people don’t understand that, and that’s what bugs me a lot. And so, I don’t, you know, ‘the healing’… I hate the healing thing, cuz I’m just like, if He wanted me to be healed, He’d make me….He makes me the way that He wants me to me. Bethanie: Right, it’s not going to be because you – Lucia: Pray hard enough. Bethanie: Yes. Page 31 �Lucia: And it’s, yeah. I mean, so, that’s something that I struggle with a lot in college too, as far as that whole, you know, wanting to know why, kind of, and I think everyone struggles with that spiritually. You know, I don’t think it’s uncommon. Bethanie: Mhm Lucia: Um, but we all have our different ways of doing it, you know, and, um, you know, and I believe that He told it to me through a dream, actually. I hope I don’t sound crazy, but, when I was growing up, until I got to college, November, in college, cuz I wrote about it, and I remember the day that I woke up, and um, I always dreamed of myself walking, and doing all that stuff, and, um, I woke up one morning and I had dreamed of myself in a wheel chair. And ever since that day in November, uh, when I was a freshman, I never dreamed of myself walking ever again. I’ve always been in a wheel chair or on crutches. So, it’s just kind of interesting how, and it’s weird, how it’s changed, like that. Ryan: Was that a good day for you? Lucia: Yeah, I was like, oh my gosh! Ryan: Yeah, it seemed like it would be… Lucia: It was. I was really surprised. I never noticed it until then (group says, “mhm”). And it’s not like I wanted myself to sleep so I could dream of myself walking. It was just something that happened. So then all of a sudden that day I woke up and I was like, “oh my gosh”, I’ve never dreamed of myself not being in a wheel chair or crutches again. So it’s kind of, I don’t know, some of that stuff is, you know, and I think everything, its, its all, there’s a purpose. So. Bethanie: Did you find it different, I know, like, I don’t know the Kalamazoo area very well, but I know, like, how Holland, like, Ottawa county is very famous for the religious community, so, did you find a lot more people asking you, um, up here, rather than down there? Or was it about the same? Or? Lucia: No, it’s in the area. You know, in Holland, that area, and even in Grandville area, that type of thing, but um, I used to go to church in Grandville, so that’s kind of what, yeah. But in Holland, I mean, it’s very, you know, reformed Christian, and all that stuff, um, and just very…s…strict. But I also think that, I don’t know, I think its hard, I think its hard for a person with a disability to understand the reason’s why, but I can’t imagine what it’s like for other people to want to know why too, you know? Outside, kinda like, why? But um, you know, I guess, like I said before, I just feel like I’m beating a dead Page 32 �horse sometimes, cuz I say, you know, I’m the one that lives with it, and other people are so bothered by it. But I’m the one that lives with it. You know? Why does it bother other people so much? It’s my… it’s mine to deal with. Like, my cross to bear, or whatever you say, but I mean, that’s kind of what annoys me the most and what makes me upset. Is that other people are more upset by the way that I look or the way that I was born than I am. (silence), and you know, I think I just want to know why. (laughter) you know, I mean, I guess I don’t know, I mean, it’s not like, I know other people get jealous of each other, it’s not that though. It’s more, “you’re different, and you shouldn’t be that way”, and so, how would that make you feel? If someone constantly told you and let you know how different you were, and why were you like that? How do you think that would affect your self esteem? And your ego? And everything? Effect you as a person? To say, oh, maybe I’m not worthy, maybe I’m not like that person, so, it does eat at you, and I’m like, you know what I mean, I am, I try to be a very positive person, but, you know, like I said, somedays, you just can’t be positive. And usually those days I’m just quieter. I write, I journal a lot, or I talk to someone, or I just you know, just do something productive. Ryan: Very therapeutic. Lucia: Yeah, yup, exactly, and I think I feel it a lot more because I work in the disability community too, cuz I have to live it, but I also have to work with it, so sometimes it can be overwhelming and sometimes I just have to take time to do anything not disability related and do something different. Bethanie: Do you think that’s part of the reason why you started doing more free lance writing again so you have a little bit of a break sometimes? Lucia: Yeah, I think so. Bethanie: What sort of things do you write about when you do free lance writing? Lucia: Okay. Well, I work for a marketing company, and it’s all internet blogging and website content, so I write for doctors, um, in particular, pediatrists (laughter) Ryan: Pediatrists are what kind of doctor? Lucia: Foot doctors (laughter) Ryan: Oh, okay (laughter) Page 33 �Lucia: And, um, some CPA’s and things like that. So, um, yeah, I do all that, which, which is nice cuz it’s different and I’m still kind of getting my fill with the writing, I do writing at my job, too, but its more like, writing down about accessibility and disability related, so yeah, I mean, it’s different, I like it. Bethanie: Do you have to do writing for grants for your job? Lucia: Um no, not anymore. I used to have to do it a little bit, but, um, no, usually, um, you know, whoever’s taking on that particular program does grants do I don’t have to do that as much. A lot of my stuff has been the same for years, it’s just…I’m able to tweak up what I do. Kind of, yeah, so its glad (laughter) cuz then usually they’re looking for, “sorry, needy” “we need this help to do this” and so… Ryan: You were never like that in the get go, so that kind of goes against you’re whole positive ‘this is for a reason’ mentality. Lucia: Yeah, yeah, I mean… Ryan: Which is why I feel that personally, but I feel like everybody could be a better person… not … I guess just accept things the way they are and be positive, you know? Share experiencesLucia: Yeah, and just learn from each other. You know, I think, I try to look at people, cuz I want people to look at me with, and see the person first, you know, and that’s what we talk about in first language in the disability community, you know, but that’s how everyone wants people to see them, as the person, not what you look like, or how you dress, or who you dated— Ryan: The shoes you’re wearing Lucia: Yeah! You want people to look at you as a person first. So I try to do that to others, too, how would they, who are they as a person? Not necessarily what they look like, or how they act, and um, you know, and so I try to base it off of that and if I find that they’re weird then it’s different, ya know? (group laughter), but I mean, it’s just, you know, that’s a different story, but, you know, I guess, I always encourage you to do that too, look at the person first, don’t look at everything else, the exterior, because it’s all inside. Which is true, and a lot of times people, um, you know, I mean, I’m a magnet for weirdo’s, you know, cuz people, I don’t know if it’s because of the disability that people feel like they don’t have to have their guard up as much, but um, sometimes, I get people, nice people, coming up and sharing their stories with me, or wanting to talk to me, or ask me questions, and then I get some weird Page 34 �people too. But, um, you know, and I think part of that is because, you know, they don’t feel like, I’m not this, I guess, outside you can tell that I’m not, I’m, um… Ryan: …Judgemental? Lucia: No, maybe broken? You can tell that I’m not the norm. Something different. So they feel like they don’t have to have their façade up, so. And I think that’s cuz, I’ve had people tell me that too. Like, I don’t feel like, I don’t feel intimidated by you. Ryan: Right, like I can share anything with you. Lucia: (laughs) Right, like sometimes that’s too much. Ryan: Because if you can do it, and if you can make it this far, and you can be this happy, and feel this rewarded….hey, maybe I can share my experiences and we can learn from each other. That is very important Bethanie: Do… I know you talked earlier about um, I didn’t write down her name, but ‘wesveer’….? Lucia: Yep! Ellen Westveer. Bethanie: Um, do you have someone you feel like you mentor too? Like, you um, talk with them, especially the kids in school and stuff? Lucia: Yeah, um I guess not one in particular that I can think of, but you know, I’m always willing to talk to students, like, I create friendships with students, as far as, like, you know… as far as like I have students coming in and saying, ‘hey, I just got this job’, or ‘hey I need to talk’, or um, you know sometimes we’ll meet up for dinner or something like that, so , I try to be encouraging to those others around me, um, you know and try not to ‘save’ people either as far as like, I wanna help but not to the point where I’m enabling them, or coddling them, because I mean, I’m like that with people with or without disabilities, too. It’s like, I’m not gonna do something for you that you can’t do for yourself. You know? I mean, so , um, but, you know, no one that I know, I mean, that I can think of, you know, I’m just, I just, you know… but I guess that’s not unusual for me to come into work and say, ‘oh I took one of my teen’s out to dinner’ or ‘one of my teen’s need to look for interview clothes so I volunteered to take them’… they’re like, ‘oh my gosh! Why would you do that?’ we spent two hours at JCPenney’s looking for interview clothes… so I guess that’s not uncommon that people would find that I did that because, you know, especially if I see like they need someone to talk to, or , you know, I try to share my Page 35 �experiences with them, especially those at risk youth, the ones that are um, you know, doing really bad in school, people have, you know, they have criminal records, stuff like that, um…. Ryan: Or come from broken families… Lucia: Yeah! Broken families! Ryan: These external factors that they don’t have control over Lucia: And say they hey, ‘people said this about me’ but look at what I did with my life, and look, you can do the same. So try to relate it back to them, saying, um, hey, I had a lot of barriers too, but, you know, don’t listen to what other people say, and you know, so…so that type of thing, and I do a lot of that in the class room, and one –on-one, so I don’t know if there is one particular person, but, like I said, I mean, you know, like my co-worker Catherine, she’s always like, “oh my gosh I can’t believe you took that kid out”, you know, and I’m like “well, she needed someone” or you know, or, “I wanted to be nice”, you know. So… Bethanie: Does it ever make you feel like your work never ends? Because, even outside of work, you’re doing things? Lucia: Yeah, it does, I mean sometimes, you know, I guess one of the things is I guess I love spending time with my niece and my nephew, who are teenagers right now, and so um, doing things with them, and one of them, my niece is finally coming around a little bit more. You know, my nephew thinks I’m the coolest person ever, so, I like that, he’s 14 and my niece of course, she’s seventeen, she thinks like, I don’t know anything but she’s coming around a little bit more. But, you know, it’s fun spending time with them and hearing about them, and what they’re doing and being able to share my experiences with them, experiences growing up and stuff like that. So.. .um, yeah, I mean, so … I got that Bethanie: So even mentoring things like that, like, “you should go to school” … Lucia: Yeah, and my niece struggles with that too, so we talk about that and um, what that’s gonna look like for her future, and you know, like, I talk about that generational thing that happens in my family. Her mom had her when she was 15. You know? She is 17 and struggling with certain things, she’s not pregnant, I mean, which is great, but she’s struggling with that teenage ‘stuff’, like, not wanting to go to school, having friends, you know, mom not understanding her. Ryan: Possibly seeking outlets for, you know, frustration and stress. Page 36 �Lucia: Yeah, exactly. So I mean, you know, I try to talk to her about that stuff, and be open about it and stuff, and you know, yeah, and tell her I expect, you know, I expect good things for her, because she’s, you know, a part of my family, you know. So. Yeah I mean, it’s still kind of interesting cuz like, my siblings, um, you know, my sister, my older sister, is trying to go back to school now, which is good, you know, my siter and my other sister, you know, I was the first one in my family from my parents from all sides to get my high school diploma, my college degree from both sides of the family, their grandkids, and they have a lot of, you know, but now other people are starting to get it too, which is cool! So now it’s not like it’s just me, but um, you know, now my mom went back to get her medical assistant, you know, to be a medical assistant, my older sister’s going to college now, my other sister’s going back to get her medical assistant certificate, so I mean now, people, you know, I try to be encouraging to them too. You know, as well, because you know, some of them fell into that hole. You know, have kids right away or go into the factory, or, you know, that type of thing. Ryan: Maybe an unfulfilling job, where as you’re the complete opposite, everything you do is for fulfillment and for this purpose. Lucia: Yeah! And sometimes it gets you know, tiring, but you know, I don’t know, and like I said, if I don’t have something to keep me busy, I get SO bored! (laughter) Like, I can’t just sit still. So, um, but I don’t know, but it does create anxiety as well. And stuff. But. I don’t know. I guess I feel like I just have to , I don’t know, I always, I don’t know, I’m more of the type, I wanna leave this earth knowing I’ve done some good for it. You know, whether it’s just one person or making sure that an automatic door is you know, around, or you know, something, I think we all have a purpose, but I think people aren’t always… Ryan: Proactive? Lucia: Yeah, proactive and trying to go and seek that. And we may never know what it is, I don’t know, I just feel like I can’t… like I just can’t sit around. And I think that it’s because people just expect me to sit around (group laughter). And that might be part of it! Those expectations that people have for me, I mean, cuz people um, growing up, you know, even aunts and uncles, some of them, you know, are like, ‘wow! You’re the one that went out and made something of yourself’ and people that I run into are like, ‘oh do you live with your mom?’ …’no?”, or “you have a full time job!? WHAT? “ you know, people don’t expect that, and so I think I like to prove to people that I CAN do it, and I think a part of it’s that. People just expect me to just sit around when I barely…I don’t. So. I don’t want any part of that going on. Page 37 �Bethanie: Do you find it , like, emotionally draining to like, encourage other people all the time? Or is it, kind of , like, empowering too? Lucia: I think sometimes it can be emotionally draining, you know, I think it’s when you can see what other’s can do and they give up so easily. And you’re like, seriously? It just makes me, I don’t know, it makes me super uncomfortable to be around those people, because, um, who are very negative all the time, or er, always have excuses, and you’re like, really? Cuz, I mean, I bring this up because my brother’s notorious for this. He always, and he’s the baby of the family, he’s 30, but he always makes excuses for everything and I’m like, seriously! I know people that can barely move their arms that are working. You know, why can’t you get a job? (pounding first on the table) , so I mean, I feel like I have high expectations for the people in my life because I know what they’re capable of, I can see it. And I’ve done it too, you know, I’ve done it before and I don’t know, maybe the expectations are too high? Cuz I get annoyed by It when they’re not doing it? And so it’s like, I don’t know, but yeah, I guess it can be draining too. Always trying to encourage people, or, oh! When I’m not happy, people are like, “what’s wrong?” and it’s like, I’m having a bad day! We can all have one of those. You know? Ryan: It seems like, though, um, like you said, um, about making a difference and in anybodies life whether it be putting in an automatic door opener, or taking someone out for clothes, it almost seems like it’s almost kind of a motherly role. Like, not necessarily that, but even more like, a mentor, I mean, I don’t know, not one person has to be mentored… but lets say you mentored an entire group of children that assembled in a gym. That’s gotta feel great! Just knowing that you change, or broke some stereotypical wall… Lucia: Yep yep. So even if they’re okay to ask someone later on, you know, instead of staring at the person, saying, “oh, hey can you tell me what life’s like for you?” you know? Yeah! That’s great! That’s something that I want. I don’t want people being rude or being afraid to ask those questions. You know? So even that, I mean, yeah. You know. Mmhm. Bethanie: Um, I know you said you went to, um, a conference in Las Vegas, with lots of people with disabilities (Lucia laughs) and you mentioned you work with people with lots of hidden disabilities, did you, how, um, like, do you just, like, what sorts of things are hidden disabilities? I guess I don’t know, like… Lucia: Yep! Like ADHD, ADD is a disability… a learning disability, whether it’s reading or writing, autism, um, Aspergers is a big one right now, um, the whole autism spectrum disorder, um, also, um, mental Page 38 �illness, depression, anxiety, really severe diabetes, as well, um, people that have trouble remembering, or concentrating…well that’s a part of the ADHD, concentrating, you know, fibromyalgia, it can be, um, you know, chronic pain, arthritis, I mean, there is just a whole bunch. Ryan: So would you say hidden disabilities roughly could be defined as anything other than physical? Lucia: Yep! Anything that impairs one or more of your major life activities. Is what a hidden disabilities is defined as. So anything, that um, like, walking, talking, speaking, thinking, sleeping, concentrating, you know, I mean, anything ‘-ing’? So what do you do with your daily life? Bethanie: Do you think things along the lines of OCD could be considered a hidden disability? What sorts, of, I don’t know if I’m allowed to ask this, but, teens that you work with, with hidden disabilities, like, what sorts of hidden disabilities do you help them with? Lucia: Well they have, a lot of them have a lot of the mental illness, so, all of the anxiety, all of the depression, um, bipolar, schizophrenia, those types of things, um, I’m seeing a lot of students with Asperger’s syndrome. Ryan: My roommate had that! And we went in blind, it was kind of refreshing to see, cuz like, you know, with, as you know, Aspergers is a social thing, but many Aspergers, um, effected citizens are like, high functioning. They’re like, really smart, brilliant. He was like, couldn’t really have a conversation, but he was excellent in school. Lucia: Yep, hyperfocused on stuff too, so maybe there are just certain things that they are drawn to, um, yeah, I mean, especially with Autism too, sometimes, I mean, it’s a social thing, so you might find someone that’s a little bit quirky, and you’re like, “something’s not quite right”… that’s not just autism that’s just mental illness, that type of thing. Whatever that might be. So you’re like, um, what’s going on with that person? Um, but, yeah, that one’s a big one as well, um, and learning disabilities as well. Students have trouble with reading, writing, math, um, dyslexia, all that stuff, so that’s what we find a lot of, is mental illness and learning disabilities, and that could be from a variety of things. You know, a lot of the kids who are , um, seen as bad kids, a lot of those kids have hidden disabilities as well but they act out because they don’t want people to know what’s wrong. - recording was cut off due to battery- Page 39 �Bethanie: So when you work with these teens that have like, hidden disabilities, um like what sorts of things do they struggle with like the most, or what sorts of things do they tell you that they struggle, besides like their disabilities, like how people treat them and things like that? Lucia: Yeah I think part of it is that just um, people knowing about them having a disability. Like they want to hide it. They don’t want people to know because of the stigma the disability has. People think that you’re dumb or that you can’t do certain things. And so they don’t want to stand out any more than they already do, or they try to stand out in other ways. By the way they dress, the way that they act, by the trouble they get in to. So I see a lot of that, as they don’t want to disclose very much, that they have a disability. So, but we try to talk to them that it’s important to disclose because that’s going to help you in college, to get support, that’s going to help you for your job to get support and accommodations, if you need help, um, writing or reading something, then you’re going to have to ask for it yourself, someone’s not going to go up to you and say: “hey, do you need help?”. So, and it could cost you your job. So that’s kind of where we come from, we’re not saying that you have to announce it to the world, but you need to know about your disability and how to best advocate for yourself. Ryan: That’s like really important though, you know, being able to trust someone enough, I mean it’s a little bit easier when someone can vouch for, “hey I’ve gone through this, or something similar” you know, because that’s a big thing, if you don’t want to share things, because you don’t trust somebody, like you said, you’re going to act out potentially, or you’re just going to ignore it and its going to hurt you down the line. Lucia: Well sometimes, I know that one of our interns at our office, and this is before (talking to Bethanie) your mom had come there, she actually went to Grand Valley State University and one of her professors didn’t believe her, that she had a significant learning disability. And so, he thought that she was lying. So, when she had talked about it, she said that sometimes people don’t believe you when you have a disability. But why would you lie about having a disability? Group: Mhmmm. Lucia: You know, that type of thing. So I know that she struggled with that, with a particular professor here, I don’t remember who it was. But he was also, uh, was a professor from another country as well. So, also when you think about disabilities in other countries… Page 40 �Ryan: Some kind of disconnect there. Lucia: Yeah. Ryan: Or you hope there’s a disconnect there (haha). Lucia: I mean usually I try to think that people hopefully don’t know or just don’t understand. So I would hope that people don’t do it just because they’re jerks. Ryan: Right, exactly. Lucia: So yeah, she um, so I know she had that issue here on campus, but disable student services helped her out too. So. Bethanie: That’s cool. Lucia: Yeah. Bethanie: Um. Lucia: Well I know that Grand Valley has been really involved, especially the Allendale campus, making their facilities accessible and available to people. Um, since I’ve been working at Disability Network, a couple years after, I know we were involved in accessibility stuff here on campus and some of our interns did stuff on campus here. I actually met with a guy a couple weeks ago who had an app, that he has and it shows and tells you of all the accessible areas of campus, and he’s trying to get it in other places. I’m trying to think, I believe his name is James Albright. And I know he started it here and there are students who actually went around and did assessments and stuff to put the information into the app. So, I mean there’s a lot of good things that are happening here. I think that even that Change U class I was telling you that I was involved in, they really did promote not only social, I mean all social justice issues, including disability, which is one of the reasons why I excited to be a part of it because most places, like I said, don’t think of disability. They just kinda think, “eh ya know, we’re not gonna” type of thing. Ryan: that it’s not important. Lucia: Or that it’s not important enough. If you think about it there’s a lot of other issues going on now too, everyone wants their issue to be front and center. Page 41 �Ryan: It probably drives people like you even further to spread the message, well not ‘the message’ but to influence as many people as you can in a positive way. Especially in kids, like you made the point earlier about if you can influence a child or a young adult versus a pretty set in stone with their thought process adult, it might not change. You know maybe you can mold their future a little bit, for the better. Lucia: Or if they treat someone else with respect when they come in contact with that person. Bethanie: What sorts of connections do you find with other people that experience discrimination, like the LGBT community? Lucia: I think with that, you feel some type of comradery, a little bit, especially in Michigan there are some groups that really align themselves, like disability groups, that really align themselves with the LGBTQ community. Michigan Disability Rights Coalition is a big one. Because they feel that what they experience is similar in a lot of ways, people could argue that a difference would be that disability is not a choice, and some people feel that LGBTQ is a choice. And that’s where some disability advocates are not so excited about being aligned in that way because they don’t believe in those things. I feel that in both of those groups, discrimination is powerful in both of those groups. I have friends involved with the LGBTQ community and we talk about how people view both of us, and one of my friends is a lesbian and we talk about how with her it’s so hypersexual, with her it’s “sex, sex, sex” but with me you couldn’t possibly have that stuff and we just think it’s funny how in both groups there’s this and that, but that we’re just people together, we’re just people in general. And so it’s interesting talking about the ways that discrimination takes place in both of our lives, because they can’t be similar. People have discriminated against her because of the fact that she’s lesbian, and people will discriminate on me for the fact that I use a wheelchair/have a disability. You know, those hurtful words too. “Gay/Retarded”, Retarded is a big one that the kids say. People say “that’s gay” and those are words you just don’t use. But if you go out and call someone the “N word” then that’s like oh my gosh! But if you call someone retarded, that’s okay, or if you call someone gay or using another derogatory word, that’s okay, but you can’t go out and use the “N word” because people are like oh my gosh! So why is one acceptable over the other. Or people that call little people midgets. Or they say things to them. We always have good conversations because the discrimination is so raw for both. Very hurtful. END OF INTERVIEW Page 42 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/99daf628cf05b6909e8e6ada80153a63.mp3 c219bd2aca9fa5332a98c6305d9526d5 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Rios_Lucia Title A name given to the resource Lucia Rios audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rios, Lucia Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Billing, Bethanie Description An account of the resource Lucia Rios discusses her experiences with Spina Bifida and life in western Michigan. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Discrimination against people with disabilities People with disabilities--Personal narratives Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-02-20 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/487208a5c19329893ec263452bdf6c2a.m4v 38c88de4376701cceefa632467dd4d6f https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7c7bf5bc51506af5671e6c7c23bc7409.pdf 4dc49afe9b66a3a6f65fe1a06f578832 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans’ History Project Alvin Rippen World War II 59 minutes 19 seconds (00:00:48) Early Life -Born in Franklin County, Nebraska on November 6, 1917 -He was born and raised on a farm in Franklin County -He attended high school in Campbell, Nebraska -Rode a pony to school every day for four years -For grades one through eight he attended a country school house with only one teacher -He graduated from high school in 1935 -His family was able to keep the farm through the Great Depression -He, his father and his siblings all worked the farm -His mother died in 1929 at the age of thirty six -Their farm grew wheat, oats, and corn and they raised cattle, hogs, and chickens (00:02:57) College -He attended the University of Nebraska in Lincoln, Nebraska -He got in due to a referral by the superintendent from high school -He started college in the fall of 1935 -While at University of Nebraska he had a part time job at the University’s dairy plant -Worked that job for four years -He majored in dairy farming -After going for an extra semester he graduated from the University of Nebraska in January 1940 -From the University of Nebraska he was able to get into Ohio State University -He got in due to a professor he’d had at University of Nebraska -While at Ohio State University he got his master’s degree (00:05:33) Pre-War Life -He finished at Ohio State University before the attack on Pearl Harbor -He got a job in Chicago working for a dairy equipment company in the summer of 1941 -He was living in Chicago when the attack on Pearl Harbor happened -He rented out a house with a few other men who worked at the same plant -The house that he lived in was on Elm Street in Chicago (00:07:24) Start of the War and Enlisting -Remembers hearing about the reports of the attack on Pearl Harbor -Soon after he and his housemates began discussing how they would get involved in the war -He was interested in becoming a Navy pilot -He knew for certain that he didn’t want to become an Army draftee -He went to a recruiter and told him that he wanted to become a Navy pilot -Asked if he had ever been in a plane before and confessed that he hadn’t -Recruiter told him to ride in a plane then come talk to him afterwards -He went to Midway Airfield and took a ride in a plane over Chicago -He returned to the recruiter and told him that he was still interested in becoming a pilot -He enlisted in November 1942 �(00:10:17) Basic Training -He was first sent to the University of Iowa for pre-flight school -Consisted of learning about the Navy and getting in shape -At the time he couldn’t even swim, so he spent extra time learning how to swim -When he started pre-flight school he was in good physical shape -They were told the rules and about the culture of the Navy -They were given an explanation of how the war had begun -He remembers having to march in the snow -The men that he trained with were much younger than he was -Most of them were fresh out of high school and four or five years younger than him -He was called “old man” by the younger trainees -He spent three months at the University of Iowa (00:14:00) Primary Training -From the University of Iowa he was sent to Glenview, Illinois for primary training -In primary training he got to fly an airplane for the first time -Started off by training with the NCN (a Navy biplane used for training) -He began his training there in February 1943 -He almost washed out during primary training due to the difficulty of it -The flight instructors that he had were all Navy personnel (no civilian flight instructors) -One of the first things he had to overcome was relaxing while flying -His instructor only made him tenser -After four weeks he was given a new instructor -Once the weather warmed up he was able to relax more -After completing his final flight test he was allowed to advance -While he was at Glenview he also learned how to land a plane -At least a fifth of the trainees quit the program -They were allowed to go on leave a couple times and visit Chicago -In Glenview he received further classroom instruction -Started to learn about navigation -His college background made the classroom work easier for him -He spent three months at Glenview (00:21:10) Advanced Training -From Glenview he was sent to Corpus Christi, Texas for advanced training -The plane that he started working with there was the SNJ -Flew out of Cudahy Field near Corpus Christi -Enjoyed flying the SNJ -Faster than the NCN biplane -Just all around more fun to fly -They were instructed to always look for a safe place to land in case of an emergency landing -At Corpus Christi he learned how to do formation flying and instrument flying -Instrument flying involved flying without using surroundings as a point of reference -Had to rely solely on the plane’s instruments -During instrument flying he got airsick -Only time he ever got airsick -Didn’t affect his evaluation -He just had to clean up the plane after he threw up in it �-He had an easier time flying in Corpus Christi -Continued to have Navy instructors there -At Corpus Christi he received further swimming training and classroom instruction -Taught about the mechanics of the airplane and the mechanics of flight -He met his future wife in Corpus Christi -Bought his wedding ring in Corpus Christi, and his wife still has it today -He finished training at Corpus Christi on September 16, 1943 (00:26:00) Dive Bomber Training -From Corpus Christi he was transferred to Jacksonville, Florida -In Jacksonville he was assigned to become a dive bomber pilot -First time using an aircraft that was actually being used by the Navy -He flew out of Cecil Field outside of Jacksonville -Trained with the SBD Dauntless dive bomber -Not very different than the SNJ that he had trained with -It had different, specialized flaps for dive bombing -He used smoke bombs to hit targets during training runs -He got to fly out over the ocean -The SBD was a slow, clumsy and underpowered plane which didn’t bode well with the pilots -He received night flying at Jacksonville as well as daytime flying -When he was at Jacksonville he was still taking off and landing on land -He began to receive training on how to make a landing on an aircraft carrier -Landing on a shortened airstrip -Watching the ground crew to receive signals for landing -He got married in Jacksonville on October 23, 1943 -His wife had to live in an off base apartment -At night they would eat dinner together on base -He stayed in Jacksonville a few months (00:30:20) Aircraft Carrier Training -From Jacksonville he returned to Glenview, Illinois for aircraft carrier training -There were two training carriers in Lake Michigan: USS Wolverine and USS Sable -He made his first aircraft carrier landing on one of those in Lake Michigan -The first landing that he made required attentive listening to the instructor -When he landed the tail hook cable caught the plane which surprised him -Accidents were fairly common -Both carriers had a steel cable mesh barrier to stop planes that didn’t catch a tail hook cable -It stopped the plane from going off the edge of the carrier into the water -The weather stayed good while he was training there (00:34:13) Deployment to Hawaii -After completing carrier training he was sent to San Diego, California -He was given a short leave before being deployed -He travelled out to California by train with his wife -Not soon after arriving in California he was loaded onto a ship bound for Hawaii -His wife returned to Ohio to wait for him with her family -The ship that he took to Hawaii was a Kaiser aircraft carrier -Carried a limited amount of personnel and aircraft -The island that they arrived at was Oahu �-After arriving at Hawaii he was sent to Kaneohe Navy Base in north Oahu -He continued to train with the SBD Dauntless on how to dive bomb -The men that he was training with were replacement pilots -He spent about one month training in Hawaii -He remembers eating a lot of pineapple (00:36:11) USS Lexington -In Hawaii he was assigned to the aircraft carrier the USS Lexington -He was assigned to VB 16, a dive bomber unit aboard the Lexington -The first target that he bombed was on Guam -The second target that he bombed was at the Marianas Islands -Specifically the island of Saipan -Aboard the Lexington he witnessed the “Great Marianas Turkey Shoot” -A catastrophic aerial defeat for the Japanese -A Japanese fleet arrived in their area from the Philippines hoping to attack his fleet -American fighter planes intercepted the Japanese bombers and decimated them -He was able to watch the aerial combat from the Lexington -He remembers watching the battleship USS North Carolina ripping apart enemy planes -The task force didn’t suffer much damage from the Japanese attack -The next day American planes were sent out to attack the Japanese ships -Wound up being a fairly successful attack forcing the Japanese to retreat -During bombing runs on enemy airfields he made sure to focus on buildings -Specifically hangars and any building that looked useful to the Japanese -During the bombing of Saipan he received heavy enemy fire, but was never hit -At this point in the war he was never attacked by Japanese fighter planes -Most had been destroyed in the “Turkey Shoot” or pulled closer to Japan -For bombing run had to come within one thousand feet of a target -Sometimes had to get as close as a few hundred feet above the target -Aboard the Lexington he flew a few depth charge patrols -Flying out with a depth charge looking for Japanese submarines to attack -Always dropped the charge before landing because it was too dangerous to carry (00:45:00) Returning to the United States and Instructor Work -After being on the Lexington for six weeks his unit was rotated back to the United States -The SBD Dauntless was replaced with the Curtiss Helldiver -As a result of the replacement he was made a dive bomber instructor -Stationed at Jacksonville, Florida -Still used the SBD for training purposes -He enjoyed being an instructor -Worked at Jacksonville for about two (or three) months (00:46:38) Fighter Pilot Training -When kamikaze attacks began in the Pacific the Navy decided they needed more fighter pilots -He was assigned to become a fighter pilot flying the Hellcat fighter plane -He was sent to the West Coast for fighter pilot training -First at Seattle and Pasco, Washington -Later in California and Hawaii -He was assigned to Air Group 2 -He enjoyed flying the Hellcat �-In Hawaii he received practice on how to shoot at flying, moving targets -Targets were towed by other planes to be shot at by fighter pilots -The Hellcat had incredible firepower with six .50 caliber machine guns -He completed his fighter pilot training at Hilo, Hawaii after five (or six weeks) (00:49:38) Stationed at Saipan -From Hawaii he and the rest of Air Group 2 was sent to Saipan -They lived in Quonset huts on the Navy base there -He spent about a month on Saipan before being assigned to another ship -They had a lot of downtime at Saipan because Japanese activity had mostly stopped (00:50:28) USS Shangri-La -He was assigned to the USS Shangri-La aircraft carrier from Saipan -Aboard the Shangri-La he continued with practice maneuvers -He boarded the carrier in June 1945 -Only two months later the atomic bombs were dropped and Japan surrendered -After the surrender he was able to fly over Tokyo -Last flight that he ever made -He never had any combat while flying the Hellcat -The Shangri-La sailed down to Yokohama, Japan and anchored there -He was able to go ashore and visit Tokyo -Japanese civilians weren’t hostile, just glad that the war was finally over -Tokyo had suffered extensive damage from the firebombing campaign -From Yokohama they sailed down to Okinawa, Japan -He went ashore there for a couple days as well (00:53:18) Coming Home and End of Service -In Japan he boarded the aircraft carrier USS Enterprise to return to the United States -There were so many servicemen onboard he had to sleep on a cot under a stairwell -When he arrived in the United States in December 1945 he was discharged from the Navy -He was in the Naval Reserves for a few years after being discharged -When Korea began he was concerned that he was going to be called to active duty -He was never called up for active duty though (00:54:34) Life after the War -After the war he continued to work at the dairy company in Chicago he’d worked at before -Upon returning home he felt that every American, soldier and civilian, was a veteran -Without the civilians the soldiers wouldn’t have had the supplies they needed -He knew people who made war goods in their own homes just to contribute -He lived with his wife in Chicago from 1945-1949 -During this time he travelled around the Midwest as part of his job -His wife got sick of him being gone, so he eventually left that job -They moved to Lansing, Michigan where he worked at various dairy plants near there -Did that until 1957 -His final, and lasting, career was at Michigan State University -He worked there for twenty two and a half years -He was extension man in the dairy sector at MSU and in Detroit and Grand Rapids -He thoroughly enjoyed his career that he had at MSU � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_RippenA1655V Title A name given to the resource Rippen, Alvin (Interview outline and video), 2014 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2014-07-01 Description An account of the resource Alvin Rippen was born in 1917 in Franklin County, Nebraska. He finished high school in 1935, went to college and graduate school and took a job in the dairy industry in Chicago. In 1942, he enlisted in the Navy and qualified for pilot training. He was assigned to the USS Lexington in 1944 and went to the Marianas, where he witnessed "The Great Marianas Turkey Shoot" air battle and then participated in attacks on Guam and Saipan. He then spent time as a dive bomber instructor, and then learned to fly the Hellcat fighter and served on the USS Shangri-La and on Saipan before being discharged late in 1945. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rippen, Alvin Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Navy Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Moving Image Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/x-m4v application/pdf https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7c2b7ef52968bdc5639a8cefe3b88dd5.m4v 801928cc9c04f1b5b10aea3ffc829529 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c8b1740876438254838419adac0900ff.pdf b6093bbd79151fdf0ec188f12ab9dda8 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University All American Girls Professional Baseball League Veterans History Project Interviewee’s Name: Earlene Risinger Length of Interview: (00:57:00) Interviewed by: Frank Boring Transcribed by: Joan Raymer August 19, 2008 Resides: Grand Rapids, MI Deceased: July 29, 2008 Interviewer: “If we can begin with your name and where and when were you born?” My name is Earlene V. Risinger and I was born in Hess, Oklahoma, which is hardly on the map ever, on March 20, 1927. Interviewer: “What were your parents’ occupations? Did you live on a farm?” We just lived in the country and we worked for farmers, they did. I can remember way back even, my mother and my dad lived in a big tent one time and they would pick cotton and do anything to make a few bucks to feed their family. 1:18 I was the first born and five or six years later I had my first brother and on down. I have three brothers. Interviewer: “Three brothers and you. What was your early childhood like?” Lonesome, and you didn’t know what you were going to do, but we made it up by playing games, Annie Over and all that stuff at my grandfather’s place. It was just –you just made your own—somebody asked me one time, “What did you do for fun down there?” I said, “We drowned out crickets”. That’s the truth, there were big crickets and we would fish with them. 2:02 Interviewer: “You eventually were in a house?” Yes, we lived in a house. It seems like there were a lot of empty—they were really shacks that we lived in. I can remember during the storm, you know the dust storms; you would get up some mornings and have a half-inch of dirt on your stove and everything. It wasn’t an easy time. 2:31 Interviewer: “Who were your neighbors, or were there neighbors around you?” Oh yeah, they were maybe a quarter of a mile away. This was way out there and the houses were spread out, but the town of Hess at that time had two grocery stores and two service stations and things like that and nothing is there now. We live there now. I live back there now with my niece. 3:00 1 �Interviewer: “When did you start school?” When? When I was six years old. Interviewer: “So it was like kindergarten?” There was no kindergarten then. It was first grade. Interviewer: “What was the school like?” It was a big brick building and it went from first grade right through the twelfth grade. Later on they closed the Hess school and Hess and Elmer, which is another little town over there, consolidated and during the WPA years, because my dad worked on that project, we got a new rock school. It was made out of rock. 3:43 That was when I was in the seventh grade. I went to the Baptist church. That was one of the schools until the school got finished and then in the eighth grade we had this wonderful school with good teachers and the towns had consolidated. Interviewer: “I see. We were talking earlier about recreation. Did you have chores that you had to do when you were younger?” Oh gosh yes, I had to go out and try to find kindling to make the old pot belly stove in the morning. That was my job, to get the kindling so dad could start the fire in the morning. 4:28 Many times at my grandparents’ house—sometimes, you know they all lived sort of together, we would eat corn and that was it for supper. Interviewer: “Where did you buy your food?” We would go by wagon mostly into Altus, which is thirteen miles away and you would buy your stuff for a year, I don’t mean a year, but a month because that’s a long haul, that’s a day up there and back in a wagon with two horses pulling. 5:02 Interviewer: “Who owned the horses?” Oh, my grandpa. Interviewer: “Your grandpa was actually a little better off than your folks were?” Yes. Interviewer: “Because you were family, you shared responsibilities and whatnot?” Oh yes. Interviewer: “What were some of the earlier games? You mentioned a couple games, but when did baseball come into your life?” 2 �Oh, my dad played on a, what did they call it back then? A sandlot team and he and my uncle and all of them played on Sunday afternoon. He was a first baseman and he had me out throwing balls to him when I was six years old or five years old playing catch with him. 5:39 Interviewer: “Did you have a glove?” No, he had a glove, but I didn’t. My uncle Will finally bought me a glove; you know they were not much bigger than my hand back then. He had a service station, so he bought me my first ball glove. Interviewer: “When your father was playing, I assume you went to church on Sunday morning and then afterwards you had these baseball games?” Yes, and that was up at the old schoolhouse. Interviewer: “Where were these teams formed from?” Just different—like Elmer would have a team and Hess would have a team and Tipton would have a team and they would play each other. 6:18 Interviewer: “So, this was just basically recreational baseball, it wasn’t pro?” Yes, families sitting up there in covered wagons and stuff like that. Interviewer: “There were no benches?” I don’t remember any. That was a long time ago when I was a kid. Interviewer: “So, I know this is a long ways back, but what appealed to you about baseball? What was it, when you were a child watching was it because your father was playing?” It was just something that I could do. Just something I could do and I had an uncle Doc and he had two sons and they loved baseball too, in fact they went to college at OU on scholarships because of their baseball. 7:01 Then there was Jack Shirley, a good friend of mine and his dad saw me throwing a ball to somebody one time and then Jack and I became good friends and we would get together and just play games. I would throw him grounders and he would throw me grounders and then we would hit—just the two of us. Interviewer: “Were you at all aware, I realize you were out in a very remote part of the country, but were you at all aware of major league baseball from newspapers, radio or anything like that?” 3 �Yea, we always had a radio, it had batteries, but we would run it at certain times. I remember my dad hauling it out on the porch and plugging it in during the World Series. 7:45 Yes, we got to listen to that. Interviewer: “So this is a whole group of you would gather around the radio and listen to it and hear the roar of the crowds?” Yep, Interviewer: “Maybe this is where the seeds were planted. Right. Interviewer: “You’re tall, six foot one, how quickly did you grow when you were a child? Did you sprout right up?” I think so because my mother—people would see her carrying me around sometimes and they would say, “Why are you carrying that long legged gal around?” I was all legs, and I was only about six months old. 8:23 My dad was tall, but my mother was tall for a woman too. Interviewer: “When you watched your father playing baseball, did you ever think that maybe you could play someday?” No, I never did. Later on when I started in high school and I was warming up the catcher or pitching batting practice for the boys or coaching first base, which I did a lot, I thought, “I wish there was a girls team”. I’ll put this in, before when I was in the sixth grade, I was going to school at Elmer, I was out playing with the Fancher boys and people that I knew and we were just throwing high fly balls and stuff and then Mr. Boyer, who was the superintendent at that time, he had a girls softball team. 9:25 He would let me go, I couldn’t play, being in sixth grade, but he would let me go with him to play other schools. He would put me out there, I don’t know why he did it, but he would bat fungoes, high ones out there for me to catch. Then the highlight was, we would come back through Altus on the bus and he would buy us a nickel ice cream cone. 9:58 Interviewer: “You did get through high school right? Yes. Interviewer: “Did you play during high school?” Yeah. Interviewer: “But not on a team per se.” No. I just played with the boys and warmed up the pitcher and pitched batting practice. Interviewer: “That’s what I want to get into. There was a boys team for the high school?” 4 �Oh yes. They were the South Side Red Devils. 10:18 Interviewer: “You’re a girl, how did you get in that position?” I just did it and they were happy to have me do that. The coaches didn’t mind. Interviewer: “I assume that a lot of people that were on the team knew you already?” Yes. Interviewer: “You were a tall person and you could throw the ball. I guess what’s interesting to me—when I was in little league, there is no way we would let a girl, even on first base or even coach so, you had to have gained the respect of the students.” Yes, and the guys who played. 10:54 Ya, they respected me and if they just had a little pick-up team or something, I would always get chosen. Interviewer: “So you were playing on boys teams that were not part of the high school curriculum?” Yeah, just for fun. Interviewer: “What did you think you wanted to do after high school?” I didn’t have any idea. I knew I wanted to do something, but I had no idea. There was no money for college or anything. I knew that was out of bounds and I didn’t want to do it anyway. I could have because I was the Salutatorian, but I just didn’t know. 11:33 I was going to go to the navy to the WAVES, but my mother wouldn’t sign for me and it is a good thing because I probably would have flunked out or gotten homesick or something. Interviewer: “The war began in 1941. Do you remember Pearl Harbor, do you remember that at all?” Oh yeah. Interviewer: “Tell me about your experience?” Well, we just heard it on the radio or somebody calling maybe, a few people had telephones back then, but not too many around Hess had telephones. The old kind that was on the wall. 12:09 Interviewer: “How old were you?” Well, I was born in 1927. 5 �Interviewer: “So you were old enough to recognize that this was serious?” Yes, I know that my two uncles got drafted and went to war. Interviewer: “I know this was a long time ago, but did you have any grasp—did you have any idea, you’re from a very small town and this is a world war, did you have any idea of Germany and Japan, bombings and all this?” No. I know that papers came through the school and you would have to give reports on them so therefore, we did get a little bit. We picked it up that way. But I didn’t realize it like people who had radios and stuff like that. 12:56 Interviewer: “Up to that time, what was the farthest you had traveled?” Oklahoma City, which was 100 miles away. I had to go there to meet that girls team. Interviewer: “Let’s back up, I don’t want to jump ahead too far. How did you hear about this girls team?” I went down to the grocery store, the lady down there would get the day late paper and I was reading the sports. 13:28 Interviewer: “Why did you get a day late paper?” Because that’s the way it went back then. In Oklahoma City you could buy it that day, but then they had to mail it down. I read in the paper where this girls team was coming to Oklahoma City to play a charity game against each other and I thought, “Oh brother”, and then I got a postcard and I wrote it to the editor. Interviewer: “Where did the postcard come from?” We must have had a penny postcard. 14:00 Interviewer: “You got a postcard to sent to them?” Yeah. I got the postcard, a penny postcard, sent it to the guy who had written the article, and he sent it on to Chicago and it’s a miracle that I even heard about it, much less got to go. That’s when I went up there and just— Interviewer: “Wait a minute, there’s a lot more to this story than that, I know that. Alright, you had the initiative to send a postcard to the guy who wrote the article, what did you write on there?” I just wrote, “How do I go about getting information about this league?” Interviewer: “He just forwarded it on to them?” Yeah. 6 �Interviewer: “Why did they contact you?” 14:43 Probably because they needed ball players. They needed ball players. Interviewer: “So, how did you find out that they were asking you to come out? Did a letter come?” Yeah. Interviewer: “So, now the letter arrives and you got to be excited about that.” I am excited. Interviewer: “You were at home with your parents?” Yeah. Interviewer: “Tell us about getting the letter.” 15:05 I just got the letter, was excited about it and filled it out and sent it back to them. I had never played on any professional teams or anything, but anyway, I told them I threw overhand and all that kind of stuff and so they said to go to Rockford, Illinois. Interviewer: “What did your parents think about this idea?” They were happy because they know I was unhappy doing nothing. 15:31 Interviewer: “Now, did this team offer money? Were you going to get paid for this?” Yeah. You had to go, and if you made the team they reimbursed you your money for going, and if you made the team you would get sixty or seventy dollars a week. That was a lot of money and I thought I was rich. 15:54 But, then I got to Chicago—I had to go to the bank and borrow the money. Interviewer: “I want to hear about that too—I found that very interesting.” I went to the bank and Tom Thaggert, he was quite a sports guy and he was a big shot in the bank, and he loaned me the money to go on. Interviewer: “So, you actually sat there—you’re a young girl and you sat down with one of the richest people in town, a banker, and told him that you had this offer to go?” He wanted me to go. 16:24 Then, I got to Chicago finally and went on a milk train as I call it. I was so homesick and it took so long to get to Chicago, at least I thought, and I turned around and I had enough money to come back home on so, then I had to go out and pull cotton and make the money to pay Mr. Thaggert back. 16:50 7 �Interviewer: “How much did you earn pulling cotton?” About fifty cents a hundred pounds. You had a twelve-foot sack around your shoulder and you would empty it in the wagon and that’s what’s wrong with my back right now. 17:06 You would make maybe twelve fifty a week pulling cotton. That was seasonal, but you had to do if you wanted a pair of shoes or—many a time I’ve worn a pair of shoes with—you would cut out a cardboard and put in it. Interviewer. “How long did it take to pay the bank back?” Not to long. It wasn’t very much money back then to borrow and thing sere different. Seventy-five bucks a week was a lot of dough back then. Interviewer: “When you came back and had to pick all that cotton, what did you feel like?” I felt really let down and everything that I shouldn’t—but it was a miracle that I turned around and came back and here’s why. They were pitching side arm and underhand and I couldn’t do anything but pitch because I was a slow poke to China when it came to running and I couldn’t have played any other position. 18:21 So it was a good idea that I did turn around and come back because in 1948 then they sent me another letter and I got to Springfield, Illinois and played for the “Springfield Sallies” that year. Interviewer: “You could only throw overhand. You were not a very good batter or runner so, in other words, if you went there in 1947 to try out?” I probably wouldn’t have made the team. I would have been sent home. 18:51 Interviewer: “So, what was different about 1948?” Well, I just wanted it and we were pitching overhand then and we had a chaperone and Carson Bigbee was the manager and they just took me under their wing and that’s what happened and I stayed. Interviewer: “Well, let’s actually talk about that. You arrived there in Springfield right? Yes. Interviewer: “This is a fairly good size town?” Springfield, Illinois. Interviewer: “Yeah, did you go by train or by bus?” Bus, and in one day we made it from Oklahoma City. 19:34 Interviewer: “Who was there to greet you?” 8 �Nobody, I mean, they had a room for me. I went to the room and I was tired and sleepy and I fell down and went to sleep on the bed and finally somebody came knocking at the door and said it was time to go to the park. I went down and went out there and we got dressed. Interviewer: “Hold on, so you went down there and previous to this time you had been playing in back lots and you had been playing in farm team type things. When you first walk into the stadium, what was that like?” Well, that was wonderful and then all these people standing around in their short skirts and everything. They were very friendly and very nice and I was very shy back then, but I got over that pretty fast. 20:25 Interviewer: “So, the uniform you’re talking about, what did the uniform consist of?” Just a thing you pull over your head and it come down here and you wore some kind of shorts or something underneath it and you had socks that came up and everything like that. Interviewer: “Didn’t you have to physically tryout for that team?” I guess not, I just started pitching because they needed pitchers. The sad part about that was Springfield did not draw so, halfway through the season we were kind of on the bus together all the time just finishing out the year and we were called a traveling team. 21:14 Interviewer: “So, you would get on a bus and you would go to another town and you would play whatever team was there?” Yes, and stay in the hotel. We lived in hotels. Interviewer: “What was the early camaraderie like? These are all girls that were baseball players. You played with boys before and now you’re actually with your peers. How good were they?” They were good. Most of them were good and if they weren’t, they weren’t there. That’s the thrust of it. Some of them went home too, just like they would get hurt and not return again and so on. 21:48 Interviewer: “You had been on a farm, you mentioned before how you lived mainly in overalls, didn’t wear shorts or anything like that. What was your reaction to these short little uniforms?” 9 �Well, I was embarrassed when I first had to go out and pitch in front of them, but you got used to it because everybody else did too and so, it didn’t bother me after a few times. 22:17 Interviewer: “Your first few games, how did you feel about being out there actually in a uniform, in a stadium, that’s a big jump?” Kind of scary. Scary, and all I knew, I hadn’t had any training you know and everything—this was in 1948. No training and I just threw the ball jut threw it and I could throw it hard. 22:41 Somebody asked me once what my best pitch was and I said “high and tight”, but anyway in the winter of 1949, we went on this Central South America tour and they asked me to go and I accepted and that was another scary thing, getting on another train somewhere in Texas and we went to New Orleans and then ended up in Guatemala meeting a bunch of kids from Miami, a whole plane load from Miami. 23:21 Then we all got together and they called them the “Cubanas” and the “Americanas”. I remember pitching in the Panama Canal [Zone] and we stayed in a barracks there. Interviewer: “Military barracks?” Yes. Interviewer: “What was your reaction to coming to a foreign country?” Scary, everything was scary, but you know, the kids were so nice that they just took you right in and so, there were three or four girls that were going to play and Johnny Rawlings was our manager and he was an ex-baseball player, Johnny Rawlings, so was Carson Biggby, they were all ex-players in the big leagues. He taught me more about pitching than anybody else ever had. 24:32 I had gotten allocated to his team so therefore, his kids that were playing for him took me in and everything worked out just fine. Interviewer: “These were women from all different teams and this was formed to play in a foreign country?” Yes. Interviewer: “So, it wasn’t the “Peaches’ or it wasn’t—it was almost like an all star team?” Yes. Interviewer: “So, he took the time to teach you how to pitch better, is that right? So you were basically just throwing the ball across the plate?” Yes, trying to. Interviewer: “What did he teach you?” 10 �Well, when you got two strikes on them, waste a pitch or two, and things like that. I never could throw a curve ball though, never, but my pitches would go in and dance in like that and I don’t know what they call those now days, but they got a name now days. 25:29 Interviewer: “Did you feel like you were getting better as a pitcher because of that?” Yes. Interviewer: “Your confidence rose. What about your batting?” Oh, they always called on me to bunt mostly. Move them along. Interviewer: “That’s exactly what they did with me.” Yeah. Interviewer: “You have long legs, you must have been a good runner?” Heck no, heck no, one time I did get a hold of a ball and it hit out to the fence there in Grand Haven and I was running around the bases and another time the accountant for our league had his little boy there at a game in Grand Rapids here, and he looked at his daddy and he said, “Why don’t she run daddy?” In the paper the next day it said, “Here she was being staggered into third”. I was strictly a pitcher and that was it. 26:21 Interviewer: “Your experience in South America, did you have a chance to get out to the city and look around?” Oh yeah, poor countries, Managua, Nicaragua, and the Panama Canal and Guatemala and all those. Interviewer: “Now you say poor, but you were poor?” Yeah, I mean, but their meat hung out on the street and you know, all that kind of stuff, but it was a very good experience. We were invited to General Somoza’s big palace and all that kind of stuff. 26:56 Interviewer: “Was there a lot of newspaper coverage? Were there newspaper people around?” Yes, I know, one time before I started playing, they went to Cuba for spring training and they were very, very well received there. Interviewer: “This is pre-Castro of course.” Yes. 11 �Interviewer: “You mentioned that the original team you played with, they were not drawing the audiences, so you were playing out on these traveling tours and then you got the opportunity to go to South America, when that ended then where did you go?” I just came back home and went to spring training. 27:41 Interviewer: “Spring training for what?” The Grand Rapids Chicks. Interviewer: “Ah, you didn’t give us all that information. I know what the story is, but you need to say it. So, John was impressed with you and he was in charge of?” The Grand Rapids Chicks and the players that he had, if he wanted to trade them off or whatever. Interviewer: “So, with his experience with you in South America, he decided he wanted you to be on his team? ” Well, I was allocated there, but he could have passed up on me, or whatever he wanted to do, but going to Central South America was a good thing for me because of meeting him and some of the players. 28:15 Interviewer: “What were your thoughts about going to Grand Rapids, Michigan?” I guess I liked it. I stayed and I made a lot of friends and a lot of friends that aren’t baseball players too. Interviewer: “Let’s talk about—you’re back—you did go home after the South America trip, to Oklahoma?” Yes, and then back into West Baden, Indiana, that’s where we were having spring training and from there back to Grand Rapids and I got assigned a room mate, with another pitcher. 28:50 Interviewer: “I want to get into more detail about this. Did you have contracts?” Yes. Interviewer: “So, you had a contract that specified that you would be playing for a certain period of time and these are your responsibilities. Was it any different in terms of what you had to do when you were the “Chicks” as opposed to the team you were with before? Did the “Chicks” have a better facility? Did they have better equipment?” 12 �No, but we had rules, strict rules that we had to abide by. We had to wear skirts all the time and we couldn’t be seen in public in shorts or anything like that and always act like a lady. Like somebody said, they wanted us to play like men, but act like ladies. Interviewer: “You had mentioned earlier about a chaperone and I wonder if you could explain in detail what was the chaperone for your team?” Well, our chaperone was Dotty Hunter and she was wonderful. She didn’t really have any trouble with her kids. After a game you would get two hours or something and you had to be back in your room so, most of us respected her and we were back in our room, but a lot of chaperones would do bed checks, but she never did, but a lot of them did and that was their job to do because we weren’t supposed to be up carousing around. 30:20 Interviewer: “So, chaperones were officially part of the team and their responsibilities included, making sure that you followed all the rules?” All the rules and if you skinned your knee she put methyalate on it and stuff, which they did, they had strawberries, the gals that would slide into base would get strawberries and that was awful. Interviewer: “You didn’t have to do that too often.” No, I didn’t slide. I didn’t get to slide. Interviewer: “Did you have to go through the charm school?” No, that was only the first year. They had quit that by the time I came in. That was in 1943. 31:00 Interviewer: “Where did you stay in Grand Rapids?” I stayed on Delaware Street. The chaperone would go around and talk to people and two people would stay in one room and roomed with another pitcher and we could walk down to the ballpark from Delaware Street. 31:26 Interviewer: “So, you were in people’s homes. You would rent out a room in a home, somebody’s home, and you would share that room with a roommate?” Yes, with another gal. Interviewer: “What was your schedule like during the actual season?” We usually played double headers on Sunday and you were lucky if you ever go a day off. We did once in a while, or a rainout or something like that. 31:50 Interviewer: “You would get up in the morning?” 13 �Sometimes we would have to go to practice in the morning about 10:00 AM and then be back there at 4:00 PM to get ready for the game. Interviewer: “What did you do in the meantime? I mean, you went to practice and then you would?” Oh, we would eat lunch and just whatever. Some of them played golf, but I didn’t. 32:18 Interviewer: “You were making pretty good money, were you saving it or sending it back home?” Well, I would go up to Smitter’s store in The Heights and buy my three brothers some short sleeve shirts and send them home to them and things like that because I knew how desperate they were. Interviewer: “So, you were in a sense making more than your parents were making or your brothers were making?” Yes. Interviewer: “That must have made you feel pretty good?” Well, in a way, but like one gal said one time, my dad was making thirty-five dollars a week working for the telephone company and I was making three times that much. That’s the way it was back then. 33:02 Interviewer: “What were your first experiences with the “Grand Rapids Chicks” and did you feel like you were welcomed in by the—you’re a rookie right? How were your first experiences with them?” Fine, no problem at all, I just took my turn and we had five pitchers. I just took my turn. Interviewer: “Being six foot one, I don’t think too many people would mess with you anyway.” I went to school with—I went to high school with my—she’s more like a sister to me and she would be my grandfather’s kid, and the boys would pick on her and I would have to whop them around once in a while. They were picking on her because she couldn’t take care of herself. 34:00 Interviewer: “You said there were five pitchers on the “Grand Rapids Chicks”.” Yes, or at least four. At least four. Interviewer: “So, in a given week, how many games were you playing?” Probably seven. 14 �Interviewer: “Seven games over the course of a week and some of those are double headers so, you got Sunday off?” No, Sunday was a double header. It wasn’t easy, but it was a good life—riding the bus, you know when you ride a bus you get to—everybody gets along. 34:38 Sometimes they pull jokes on you and all that, but you didn’t care about that. Interviewer: “This is the team players on the bus?” Yeah, they would play canasta and gin rummy and all that stuff, or singing and we had good times. 34:54 Interviewer: “What was your first experience playing as a pitcher after you had this training from Rawlings, did you notice a difference in the way you were pitching?” Yeah, but sometimes I would go wild as a goose and that would make him so mad. One time he came out to me and he said, “Beans, if you can’t get the ball over, bounce the damn thing in”. So, that’s the way it was. 35:30 Interviewer: “With four to five pitchers, though, how often would you actually be able to pitch? Were you first string?” Yeah, and then sometimes the next pitcher, if I got wild or something, they would put them in. They didn’t have regular-- like they do now, you pitch six innings and a reliever comes in, we didn’t have that. I pitched a twenty-one-inning game and a twenty-twoinning game and did it all so, that’s why I get a little upset with these primadonnas as I call them. Give them one like that and they’d charge the mound, you know. 36:06 Interviewer: “You had several quite remarkable experiences playing in the “Chicks”, but you started in 1948, 49, 1950. This was your regular job now right? Uh huh. Interviewer: “What was—the season itself lasted how long?” I forgot, but it was in May and all the way to September and then you had the playoffs. Interviewer: “What happened during the lull period?” You mean after the season was over? Interviewer: “Yes.” Well, I used to go home, but then there was a Mr. Jordan, who was a—he had a Buick place on South Division here and he just made a job for me in the wintertime. I started doing that in 1952 I think it was or 1951. 37:06 15 �Interviewer: “What kind of a job was that?” Oh, answering the phone or running around here, just gave me job and I made twentyseven or thirty dollars a week to tide you over until the season started again. Interviewer: “Why didn’t you go back home?” There was nothing to do, nothing to do. Interviewer: “No work?” No work, no nothing, I sure wasn’t going to go back to pulling cotton. Interviewer: “What would you say was your highlight season?” Probably when we were playing for the trophy against the “Kalamazoo Lassies” in Kalamazoo. 37:47 Interviewer: “What year was this?” 1952 [actually 1953]. It was a cold night, the bases were loaded and the manager, Woody English, had gotten kicked out of the game. Interviewer: “How come?” I don’t know, I said, “It’s because he got too cold”, but he had his long pants on out there, and so they made it a seven inning game because of the weather and it was the last game and the bases were loaded and Sammy Samms came to the bat and I struck her out and we won the game so, that was my highlight of my whole deal. 38:30 Interviewer: “Sammy Samms was, I understand, a very good hitter and player?” Yes, a very good player and a good hitter. She could pitch and she could play outfield because of her hitting. Interviewer: “So, when she came to bat with three people on?” Marilyn Jenkins was my catcher and you’re going to interview her next week, she just walked out to the mound and said—first before that, “Ziggy”, Alma Ziegler was the captain of out team and she was the coach after he got kicked out. So, with the bases loaded she walked up to me and looking up, she was little, she said, “Can you get her out “Beans”? I shrugged my shoulders and she left me in, but I got her out anyway and that was a good deal. 39:15 She was a wonderful person and she’s now deceased, Alma Ziegler. She could pitch and play second base both. 16 �Interviewer: “The Grand Rapids Chicks was actually a very successful team. What do you attribute to the success of the “Chicks” compared to some of the other teams that didn’t do so well?” Well, they tried to keep all the teams equal and they would trade someone off to make it more better, but most of the time, thank goodness I never got traded off and I guess it was because I was a pitcher and they were in demand. They busted up the team once and Tiny Petry, who was a shortstop, and she was wonderful with “Ziggy” playing second and then the team kind of went down a little bit then you know, but we won a lot of games. 40:14 Interviewer: “You got to know these women quite well right? Where did they come from?” The come from California, they came from Canada, they came from Kansas, Florida, all over. Interviewer: “This was a nationwide search for ball players and then a lot of them ended up in Grand Rapids, Michigan because it was a team.” A lot of them stayed on here and a lot of them are deceased that played on our team for a long time so, I feel lucky to be alive right now. 40:51 Interviewer: “1952, you had a wonderful year, how was 1953? How were the crowds etc?” Well, it had fallen off a little bit, but then it had started gaining back and even in 1954 we were gaining back, but South Bend and some of the other teams weren’t drawing at all so, the men just got together and decided that was the end of it. Like that—we heard about it. 41:26 Interviewer: “What kind of crowds were you getting here in Grand Rapids at the height of it all?” Well, there would be a thousand people; there are pictures of the people in the stands. I think it’s down at the library. They drew really well when I first came here. Interviewer: “How were the crowds? Were they enthusiastic? You see major league baseball and you see fans screaming and yelling.” Oh, ya, cheering and carrying on. We got to playing later and later and there was this writer, what was his name? I can’t remember, but he had a little article, a thing in the paper, and he said, “Chicks were getting sleepy”, because they were keeping then up to late at night. 42:15 17 �Interviewer: “Early on and this was in the movie and the movie was not that accurate, but it had some good points to it and it was a wonderful film, but especially early on, were you harassed at all by people, being women out there?” What the movie showed in the beginning they were, but not when I came in 1948. That had all calmed down because they knew that we could play the game and play it right. 42:50 Interviewer: “Did you ever get a chance to play—I think this happened on occasion, but play exhibition games with the men’s teams?” No, not to my knowledge, one time we might have, after the season was over, played a game with the Sullivan’s or something once. Not very often. Interviewer: “1953, you said things were going fairly well still, were there any indications that this might come to an end?” Well, I think there was, but I didn’t know it and most of the players didn’t know it. We figured, like they said, we owed Grand Rapids, owed the cleaning people that cleaned our uniforms money and I guess in the end we might have been getting paid in cash rather than by check. Things were getting tight because TV came in and the war was over and there wasn’t any gas rationing. 43:54 Interviewer: “Now, there was a real financial tragedy that happened in the 1950’s where the equipment and everything was burned up.” That was at Bigelow Field. I still say that guy who owned us then, more or less, Jim whatever his name was, I still say that he probably had somebody set that building on fire and the reason I say that is because of the fact that he immediately built a motel out there and that was hard on us because we had to get a different uniform and that wasn’t hard to do because it was back down to six teams and they had extra uniforms and stuff, but your glove, everything was gone. 44:54 Interviewer: “Now, you say that you got uniforms from other teams, but you’re six feet one.” Well ya. Interviewer: “How did you get a uniform to fit you? Did they actually have tailors come out?” Well no, we could get them hemmed or whatever they needed to be. Interviewer: “In the past, when you were with the “Grand Rapids Chicks”, you had your own uniforms and it was all color coded right? The hat, what about these new uniforms?” 18 �Well, in the end, I think we had the “Peoria Redwings” uniforms and we wore red then with white, whereas in the beginning we wore blue--- gray and then the blue sox and cap. 45:40 Interviewer: “You said there were indications that something might end, but you didn’t know and most of the players didn’t know?” We were hoping it wouldn’t, yes. Interviewer: “In your case, did you actually think that this was going to go on for a career?” I think a lot of us did, yes. We were very disappointed. Especially the ones that came in late like I did. Interviewer: “How did you officially find out that the league was ending?” I think it came out in the paper, but I’m not sure. Interviewer: “Do you recall at all what your reaction was?” I thought, “Oh well, I have to start thinking about doing something else?” Like I told them out there before you got there, that I’d gotten hit on the elbow and had to go get an x-ray and I thought hmm, that might be a good thing for me to get into, and so, Dr. Blackburn was our doctor. and he said, “Oh yes, they have programs at the hospital and we’ll get you in”, and that’s what I did then. I got to be an x-ray technician and I did that from 1955 to 1969 and then I decided to work for orthopedic doctors and was the manager of the office and took casts off and all that stuff and I worked with them until I retired in 1991. 47:13 Interviewer: “When you were an x-ray technician, were people aware that you were in the baseball league?” Some were and some weren’t. Interviewer: “I’m talking about the early days, I’m not talking about now because now people know who you are, but in those days?” Just the one’s who had attended, if they would come in and then they would say who we were. We got a little publicity because Marilyn got into x-ray too after me and another gal, Betty Wanless, and somehow I ran across a picture the other day where the three of us were in our white uniforms. We got a little publicity back then even, but we didn’t get a lot until we had our first reunion in 1982 and then-- 47:57 Interviewer: “How was that organized?” 19 �A bat girl from South Bend and then June Peppas had a printing shop and she was a player for Kalamazoo and she got the idea of sending me a letter and do you know the address of somebody else? And that’s the way it went and then they got it going. There were a few people there, historians who came to that, and three years later we had another one and so on and so forth and we’re still having them. Interviewer: “Now in the movie it’s very moving when Geena Davis comes to the reunion, and of course her sister is there with a family and all that. Was it sort of like that?” Yes, sort of like that the first time you see them and you have to look sometimes at there tag to see who they were, ya. 48:51 Interviewer: “There were a few people from Grand Rapids that went, right? Marilyn went and did Rosemary go?” I don’t remember if she went, but I bet she did. Interviewer: “I just wondered if the “Grand Rapids Chicks” gathered together and the “Peaches” gathered together?” We probably did after we got there. Dolly Konwinski went and all of them went, but we didn’t stick together, we mixed and mingled with other people. 49:24 Interviewer: “That must have been an amazing experience, I’ve been to several reunions of the Flying Tigers and I’ve been to reunions of other WWII groups and it’s a magical moment to be standing there and just hearing these conversations. “Do you remember when this happened?” Yes, and as the years go by everything gets a little more, you know what it is—the stories get bigger, yes the stories get bigger as you have these reunions. You daydream back and then you think about so and so who’s not there because she’s deceased and we say she’s, “gone to the dream team in the sky, the ball team in the sky”. It was a wonderful experience for me and made me and made my life. 50:08 Interviewer: “I just want you to comment on the movie. The thing that impressed me about it, I’m not looking at it as a historian at all because you heard from Gordon Olson and others that it was a Hollywood movie, but it seemed to capture the spirit, the excitement and of course the characters were just wonderful, what did you think of the movie?” Well, I thought it was about 89% correct. They made the chaperones look like they were simpletons, I thought. They were all very educated and wonderful ladies and that was one thing I didn’t like and of course the manager never came into our space. If he had anything to say he would talk to the chaperone and she would relate it to us. So they Hollywooded it up a little, which is all right and it put us on the map anyway. 51:15 20 �Interviewer: “Yes, that is what I was going to say, it certainly drew attention to what you had done and made much more interest in what you had done.” Like Penny Marshall said, she thought it was a story that should be told because— another highlight I had was when we went to Evansville to see them film and after it was over, she said, “Come down here, we want to play”, and I went down and pitched to her and after working hard all day, she wanted to have a little fun and that was kind of nice. 51:47 Interviewer: “When did you see the movie? Did you just walk into a movie theater or did they have a special screening for you?” They had something at the Star Theater here and the fact is, somebody made me a collage and I gave it to the library here about it and we signed autographs and everything before the movie even started up at the Star Theater. 52:16 Interviewer: “Did you go to the public museum when they had their exhibit?” Oh yes, and we signed autographs and everything there too. That was really quite an exhibit, really, that will never happen again. Interviewer: “I got to Grand Rapids just when that was ending, but a friend of mine had a video camera and a crew and they actually videotaped the entire inside and they interviewed a couple of people. I didn’t see you, you didn’t get interviewed while you were there did you?” I got a story written about me and they took pictures and I forgot, it was one of those— she asked me, the gal that doesn’t work there anymore asked me if I—she said they might not get it, they wanted, but they did and there was this booklet that came out, ya. I had to come and I know about this a little bit because they had to take pictures you know to put a picture in the magazine. I imagine they got one down at the library. 53:25 Interviewer: “We had students from the history department actually do all the research and we know where all the pictures are and where everything is. At some point I will have to go down there and take a look. I want you to make some comments now in general. The beginning of the war, after Pearl Harbor, the United States was not in a very good position, not just us, but the British and we were losing all over, the Japanese were taking over Asia and Germany was taking over Europe and as the story goes, Wrigley was concerned that perhaps major league baseball would be affected by this so, he wanted to set up this alternative, this women’s team. 54:12 I guess the question I have for you and I want you to think a little bit outside, did you and your players, did you have any sense or a feeling that you were a part of the war effort? Because you know “Rosie the Riveter”, you hear about that and of course we know about the WACS and the WAVES and it is my opinion that you did a lot, what was your perspective?” 21 �Well, we feel that helped women get to play more sports etc. by us doing that because when I first came to Grand Rapids and stayed in the wintertime, I said, “What do the girls get to do in high school and around”? Well, they didn’t get to do anything and I feel now that softball is so great now, that we were stepping stones for the younger generation. People ask, “Do you think there will ever be another team like this”? I say, “No, it would be too much money and also, I don’t think the gals of today would follow those rules and regulations because they are too independent now. We feel like we made our mark in that respect. 55:35 Interviewer: “Looking back on that experience, you had a successful career afterwards, you were a professional and made a living for yourself and helped your family out, how do you look back on that magic period of time and the effect it had on your life?” Well, all I just say is that it made my life and if I could do it anybody else could do it. Interviewer: “One other final question, how do you think it affected you as a person, how do you think it affected you as the person you are today? More independent perhaps?” Integrity, I get very emotional. 56:44 Interviewer: “This will be our last question. Your doing fine, your doing wonderful.” That’s why I can’t go and do speeches like a lot of them do because I get too emotional. Interviewer: “We can stop now, we can stop now and thank you very much this has been wonderful, wonderful.” 57:00 22 �23 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Sports for women World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives Oral history Baseball players--Minnesota Baseball players--Indiana Baseball players--Wisconsin Baseball players--Michigan Baseball players--Illinois Baseball for women--United States Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-58 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Language A language of the resource eng Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-10-02 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-58_ERisinger Title A name given to the resource Risinger, Earlene "Beans" (Interview transcript and video), 2009 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Risinger, Earlene Description An account of the resource Earlene "Beans" Risinger was born in Hess, Oklahoma, in 1927. She grew up on a farm in Dust Bowl country, and played baseball from a young age with family and friends, and practiced with boys' teams in her community. She saw a newspaper article about the All American Girls Professional Baseball League, and joined the Grand Rapids Chicks in 1948. She went with the League to Spring Training in Cuba in 1948, and then on a postseason trip to Central America. She was a talented pitcher, and pitched the final game when the Chicks won the League championship in 1953, and played until the League folded after the 1954 season. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) Video recordings All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives Baseball for women--United States Baseball Sports for women World War, 1939-1945 Baseball players--Michigan Women Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2009-09-26 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8e982c969fdc741ffa4a0105aa0d9968.mp3 4ee66ea1f3f7edae954b69750216a541 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/60de7a01a99d3b99d034a99496602e64.pdf 8f31ca57e4a580ccafdeb6266e5f8b21 PDF Text Text GV043-07 Connected Exhibit Interviews Interviewee: Elizabeth (Liz) Ritchie Interviewers: Gayle Schaub Date: April 20, 2016 Gayle: Liz: Is there a specific time or place, well not place, but if you can think of a story that or a specific time and it might just bubble out that…that you felt particularly…something. Particularly happy, or sad, or elated, or excited, or frustrated. :22 Gayle: Liz: I think that you come to college and you have a lot of those core classes you have to take but there are the electives that Grand Valley offers that really bring out who you are and start to morph, maybe your liberal education would be the right term? And for me that was ballroom dancing, and that class for me was a turning point not only feeling comfortable meeting with students outside of class to work on these dances but also to feel joy going to a class and being excited to go, and get an experience that’s not just bookwork and course-related but one that starts to make you interested in different cultures of dance and things of that nature, and for me that class was a huge turning point for what Grand Valley has to offer as far as classwork and you can kinda branch out from your major. You tried it just for fun? 1:20 Yeah. Yeah, I had a couple extra credits in one of my semesters and needed to get to full-time student to get to the fifteen credits and so I didn’t want to take another three-course science class and signed up for two gym credits. I signed up for ballroom dancing that semester and another one called body sculpting to help keep me in shape cause as you progress in your college career you find you are at the gym less and less, and so, but ballroom dancing was the one I really was passionate about going to and really excited to go to. My science classes I’m very interested in and I’m excited about the field I’m going into but to have a class… Gayle: What’s your major? Liz: I’m a biology major, but to have a class that is completely different from your comfort zone where you just kinda just dive right into every week was just a really cool experience for me. Gayle How many people were in it? Liz: 2:11 It was, you signed up based on whether you’re a girl or boy and then the class was taught together, and there were I think twenty girls and twenty boys in the class and so you switched partners for every dance. So you got to meet someone new while you’re learning the dance together and you met outside of class to perform a dance and then every week you actually danced in front of the class, and your final was choreographed in your own two minute class which was, your own two minute dance which, was really cool. �Gayle: Liz: What kind of dances? 2:44 Gayle: Liz: Did anybody, like, hate it? 3:05 Gayle: Liz: We learned the foxtrot, the salsa, the cha cha, the swing, western and eastern, just a whole array of dances throughout the semester. So you spent about two weeks on each dance and then you performed and then you switched into a new genre. I don’t think so, no. You came into the class and everyone was uncomfortable with the fact that you: a.) had to dance with the opposite sex, and b.) you had to come up with your own choreographed dances and so you can see as the semester progresses on people are going past the 30-second choreographed time and they’re just so excited to be in front of everyone and you really see that towards the end of the semester when everyone’s really actually excited and genuinely comfortable performing in front of everyone. So it’s kind of a high school awkwardness to a, your full potential in college what you can do as your own individual choreographer per se. I wonder if there’s a club here, like a dance…there must be. 3:45 There’s a swing dance club, I’m not sure about ballroom dance. I know there’s a swing dance club; I was in it for a semester. Gayle: But no more? You don’t have time? Liz: It’s yeah, that’s exactly right. Yeah, time is always… Gayle: So what made you choose this major? Liz: 4:05 I am a pre-veterinary student and I had a really good biology professor in high school and it turns out the biology courses and the curriculum ties right into the prerequisites for veterinary medicine and so I chose to be a biology major for that reason, but I think that my classes have really honed in on my interests and I think that it’s nice to have a major that’s not just a stepping stone for what you want to do but also that has really good professors. Professors that I’ve become really close with on a personal basis and who I can go and talk about ecology, and sustainable agriculture because I grew up in a rural community and to be able to translate those into my other liberal education classes, my Honors classes and then also know that I’ll be prepared going to vet school which is just really great. So I’m doing biology, you can pick whatever major you want as long as you complete the prerequisites. Gayle: So when do you have to apply for vet school? Liz: I apply this summer. Gayle: Oh! Oh, you - already? Before your senior year? Liz: 5:07 Yeah, yup. It’s really nerve wracking but I’m also excited because you finally, you go through high school and you figure out what you want to do and then you come to undergrad and you start to take all these classes but then when you fill out the �application it becomes a reality and it’s just really exciting but a nerve-wracking feeling I guess. Gayle: When are you going to, I mean where are you going to apply? Liz: I’m going to apply to Michigan State and University of Wisconsin Madison. Gayle: Two? Liz: Just two, yup. It’s $250 for the first application and then an extra $125 after that so I’m only going to apply to the schools I’d be interested in going to. Gayle: So what does that process entail? Do you have to have recommendations from here? Liz: 5:50 Gayle: Liz: So you knew you wanted to be a vet before you came to Grand Valley? 6:53 Gayle: Liz: Gayle: Yup, so you can have up to six, they’re called eLORs which are electronic letters of recommendation. One has to be from a veterinarian and then the other ones that you choose can be either an academic advisor, or a professor you became close with, but what you really want to hone in on is I guess how you’ve taken a challenge and improved upon that. They want their eLORs to be very specific for veterinary school. You also have to take the GRE which is, you know, a fun test and a lot of it’s based off you GPA, so they usually have a preliminary round per se, based on your GPA and your GRE scores and then schools will send you supplementary applications from there and you’ll fill those out and usually they have interviews, which happen around February and then they send out offers around March/April, so, it’s kind of a long process. Yeah, when I was four years old I decided I wanted to be a veterinarian. I started showing animals at my community, my county fair when I was five. So when I was four I got my first set of pigs and it was kind of an interesting year. My pigs didn’t make weight and so that was the year my dad taught me where bacon came from which is kind of interesting (laughs). It’s fine. Are you a vegetarian now? 7:23 I am not a vegetarian, but I-we raise all our own meat so it’s very different from…When I came to college I went to the grocery store to buy hamburger and I had to call my mom cause I didn’t know what to buy cause we just don’t buy hamburger from the stores, and so that was a unique experience coming to college and really having to do things on your own for a change and try to figure things out on your own so that was one of those – buying meat – for me was one of those moments. Have you been involved at all with the farm? The sustainability group, or anything that’s going on here at Grand Valley? �Liz: 7:56 Gayle: Liz: I became involved with the Humane Society one year but I’m just now looking into the sustainable farming in my courses so that’s been really interesting but I haven’t been involved on campus per se with that. No. Okay. Just curious, because I know they have a lot of people doing a lot of things and growing stuff and selling it at the market. 8:21 The farmer’s market is really cool in the fall and they have that and I’m always really sad cause you get to school and it ends in October so you’re only here about a month and a half and then it goes away. Gayle: Yeah, we’re here the whole time so. Liz: Yeah. Gayle: So where are you from then? Liz: 8:36 Gayle: Liz: I’m from a rural town southwest of Kalamazoo called Decatur and most people think Decatur, Illinois but it’s really just a small town that I grew up in. So we had about 2,000 people in my town and I graduated with 74, which is one of the largest classes of my community in about ten years, so to come to Grand Valley and have 25,000 students, and to kind of have to create your own identity was really fun for me because I grew up with the same kids from kindergarten until I graduated so to get to come here and meet new people, and recreate your identity you didn’t have when you were in second grade and did something embarrassing was really nice. Did you change your name or anything? Or change the way you…? 9:24 I became Liz when I came to college. I didn’t go by Elizabeth anymore I went by Liz. Gayle: That’s what you go by now? Liz: That’s what I go by now. So kind of a unique thing to do, I didn’t change my name but I go by a different name. All my professors call me Liz too. Gayle: I mean I didn’t have a name that I could do that with but a lot of people I know can do that. Liz: Yeah. Gayle: When you first got here, you were in a dorm? Liz: Gayle: Liz: 9:49 Yeah, I actually lived in the Murray International house which was a unique experience. I grew up with exchange students from around the world and we had about fourteen before I came to college. That stayed in your house? 10:04 Mhmm, yup. So my parents got our first exchange student when I was a baby and we had one every year until I graduated high school, some year two students and so I became involved in the Murray International House on their community council �and ran sustainability events for our community but also general volunteering and programming for Homecoming and Relay-for-Life. Then the next year, my sophomore year, I became involved with being a peer mentor and actually being more involved with the international community here on campus and working with their transitioning, and giving tours on campus and downtown Grand Rapids, and also doing programming specific for international students. For instance we had a lot of students that had never gone sledding before so we packed up a van and took everyone sledding and it was a great experience for them and we also had days that would highlight different cultures like Day of the Dead and different things of that nature to kind of make the international students feel more at home here in America. And also it was just nice to talk with them and their experiences about what’s different here on our campus, how their lectures are different and, I guess, to see them kind of flourish throughout the year. They become more comfortable with American customs and how classes are run and professors, and even just the language barriers in the beginning. That was just a really cool experience for me and from there I applied to be an RA and tried to become an RA in the Murray International Center but was placed instead in the Women in Science and Engineering building which I have no regrets from, it was a great experience working there with those girls. Gayle: Oh, so that wasn’t like you didn’t join that it kind of happened to you? Liz: Mhmm. Yeah, yup. Gayle: Did you ever want to study abroad? Liz: Gayle: Liz: Gayle: 11:51 I still want to study abroad, I’d like to do a veterinary-based program in Belize which is a kind of a hands-on program for undergraduate students it’s run by Michigan State. So I would like to do that over winter break this coming school year, but as far as a semester-long…excursion I guess, it would set me back a year for veterinary school just because of the basis of my nature and the classes I have to take. Still want to study abroad, still want to get in the undergraduate experience but not going to do it in maybe a traditional manner. Well that’s good. Have you studied language? 12:29 I studied language in high school and then this summer my friend and I are going to take up Spanish. One of my friends is a Spanish major that I graduated with, and she’s going to help me with that process. She’s fluent and she did a semester in Argentina which was really exciting to hear about how different things are there. Let’s see what else can I ask you about, if I can think of some things because you’ve had such a jam-packed experience already. Did you experience any moments of, like, “oh, what have I done?” No? As soon as you got here it sounds like you hit the ground running but did you ever feel like this was maybe a little vague or a little scary? �Liz: 13:13 No. My main challenge was in the beginning with how different academics were at the collegiate level versus the one I had in high school. High school came very easy for me, I didn’t have to study a lot. I did study but I didn’t have to study near as much as I did here, or read as much as I did here, nor were the books that I read at this level and so coming into the Honor’s College you kind of…the Honor’s College specifically, you kind of hit a brick wall in the beginning because you have to relearn how to study and how to be effective about it and how to manage your time. In a high school a lot of it is managed for you with your six class hours that your counselor makes for you and you go to lunch at this time, and go to practice at this time, and you go home and your mom makes dinner, you do homework and you go to bed. But here you might have only one class a day and you might have this freedom that is just unknown to you and what to do with that time and if you’re going to be productive or not that day, if you’re going to go hang out with friends what you’re going to do. If you’re going to visit the Writing Center all the time like I did to help with my Honor’s papers and my grammar because I wrote with commas when I thought it was okay to pause not where the commas actually belong which my Honor’s professor dinged me on right away. And so I don’t know, you have this new self-autonomy that you have to deal with when you get to college and how you deal with that kind of sets the foundation for how successful you’re gonna be and the resources that you in that process are really important and I think it’s really great, Gayle: Did you have any? Liz: And Grand Valley offers all those, Gayle: Did you have any “oh crap” moments where you thought “I should’ve managed my time better”? Liz: 14:50 Yes. Yeah, it happened when I started double-booking my time and not realizing it and having to use a calendar and my phone calendar and all of those things, and so the time where I had to tell someone “yeah, sorry I can’t meet. I’m meeting with my professor now.” And to kind of drop the ball was really a moment of “okay, I gotta get things together” but I learned quickly I think. You kind of have to learn quickly especially when you’re involved in everything I’ve been involved in. But I didn’t have a moment of…I guess you have the…breaking up with your high school sweetheart and that was a rough transition that first semester for me. I know a lot of people come to college with past relationships from their hometowns and everybody’s going to work out and you know for sure your relationship’s going to work out and then you get here and you realize it’s really not working out and so to have to deal with that long-distance breakup and that transition and feeling hopeless for a while but still having to kind of keep it together and keep your grades up I think that was my roughest semester probably dealing with that and then being away from home already, so you kind of become a little homesick and then not having that person that you had for support back at home because you just ended that relationship and that was probably… �Gayle: Liz: Now was that relationship with somebody who was also in school or? 16:17 It was a relationship with someone who was still in high school and so that’s why, ultimately it was the distance kind of that…made that a thing but, I don’t know you learn to adapt and move on. Gayle: Yeah, it sounds like you’ve got it together. Liz: Yup. I think you always try to have it together with boys but they always throw you one (laughs). Throw you for a loophole. Gayle: So, I mean it’s unusual to meet someone who had this plan and has stuck to this plan, and will probably stick to this plan. Liz: Gayle: Liz: 16:57 Yeah, I’ve never really gone through not knowing what I want to do and I know that’s a huge struggle for some people coming into college because they don’t know what they want to do, but I’ve had friends that have gone through that and ultimately they come to college the first year and they just try everything they can get their hands on and they take all of their electives that first year, usually though in one of their electives though they’ll have this spark and they’ll realize “ok, I really enjoyed this class let’s take another one” and then they take another one and meet with the professor, make that relationship and ultimately decide that that’s what they want to do. And for one of my friends that was political science. She loved doing the debates, she loved talking about the hot topics, she loved doing the research and for her political science is where she came of it and that’s what she’s graduating in in this upcoming semester so. I never experienced that but I know it’s a huge, huge problem for some students. Have you had any professors that really stand out that you just say “yeah, I wish everyone could take this professor” even though not everybody wants to do biology. Or have you had the opposite? Have you had like these, kind of, “well that was a disaster I’m glad it’s behind me” kind of thing? 18:15 I can honestly say that I’ve only had one professor I disliked at Grand Valley and I think that it was a teaching style because I know many students that really enjoyed his class, and learned a lot from his class. But I think that the a professor who’s really had the most impact on me was Dr. Matthew Hart, he teaches organic chemistry here and he was the first professor that really challenged me to step outside my boundaries in studying and how to learn from a different perspective. And organic chemistry is an extremely difficult class and it’s generally a class that pre-professional schools look at to see if students can make it through because it is so challenging and it may not be completely relevant to what they’re going into but it definitely shows how strong willed that student is, and how motivated that student is to succeed and get past it and for me that was that class. And that was the class that I struggled in in the beginning and got my first bad grade on my exam but I, I don’t know, you learn to persevere and I was in office hours all the time and so from then on I ended up first semester getting an A- in the and then the next �semester going in and kind of knowing Professor Hart and how his exams are and ended up getting an outstanding organic chemistry award at the end of it all and so it was just a really great experience and him and I are still fairly close and I think he’s the professor that I’ll probably look back on as being kind of that pivotal moment in my undergrad where I kind of got things together and just learned so much from. Gayle: So you’re doing Student Scholars? Liz: Mhmm, yeah. Gayle: What’re you doing? Liz: Gayle: Liz: Gayle: Liz: 19:57 I am doing a biology-based research project with parasitology and specifically racoon roundworms which is a zoonotic disease that a lot of children will get if a dog came into contact with a raccoon or something of that nature and got roundworms. And so it’s a very prevalent disease in western Michigan for raccoons from what our research has told and so we’re trying to see if the level of infection in a raccoon or how many adult worms are present can kind of give us an idea as to how many eggs that raccoon is putting into the environment. And so it’s very hands-on microscope work and being able to identify the roundworms and we’re doing Student Scholars Day and we’ve got our preliminary research done but it’s not significant per se. We’re going to do some tweaking of our methods which is what you do in research in real life. You do something and you realize it could’ve worked better this way and so we’re in that process of improving it and we will hopefully be publishing, or seeking publishment at the end of the summer which is really exciting to be a part of and it’s nice to see that - With a professor? 21:18 Yeah, with Professor Jacquot. It’s nice to see that in labs they’re all set up and the professor knows the outcomes and what’s going to happen but in the real world of research you don’t know what’s going to happen and you don’t know the challenges that are going to come with that and so actually going through the process and seeing all those bumps in the road and modifying your hypothesis, it’s kinda nice cause it’s…it’s what happens in real world research. So you guys, are you involved in writing it all, writing it up? Not just the methodology and the results but also the review and the, whatever, the background to the study? 21:54 Yeah, Professor Jacquot has had these samples in the freezer for about four or five years now and has just now put together a team of students to help him actually conduct the research, but as a part of my Honor’s senior project I wrote the rough draft of our paper and so, and he’s helping me revise it and things of that nature but we’ll be redoing all of our data collection in a way that we think will be better for the overall study and we’re going to include some more components that we hadn’t thought of before to try to improve the correlations but, yeah, I’ll be a writer of the paper…which is really cool. �Gayle: So what happens to kids if they get this? Liz: So it’s dependent upon how many eggs they ingest and where it travels in the body. So what happens is the kids…the raccoon is the dominant host, Gayle: Wait a minute, human kids? Liz: 22:27 Yeah, yeah kids can get it. It’s not super common but, it’s when dogs go out and they’re scavenging through dirt where there’s feces or and come back with that it’s the fecal/oral contact. If the child picks up a toy the dog licked and there happened to be, the dog maybe happened to run into the woods and come in contact with the raccoon or things of that nature it’s very easily transmitted at that point and so…it’s not super common but it can happen. Most of the time it’s not super serious you can do some level of like de-wormer or something kinda like you would do with your dog which sounds kinda really gross and things but it can be serious because as the eggs mature they travel through the liver and into different tissues in the body and so they can migrate into the central nervous system and that’s when you have super serious problems. So it’s not super prevalent but is a zoonotic disease and people can get it and so that kind of warrants research. Because if we, if you can predict based on the level of infection how many eggs you think were transmitted that can alter the doctor’s diagnosis as whether or not he’s going to do this or this depending on how many he thinks that the child ingested and it’s kind of the, the prevalence increases as the raccoons become closer to fragmentation which is either human development or farming because raccoons can get into trash and things of that nature and it’s easier for them to bring it into, like, human environments if they’re infected because we leave trash bins out and kind of like food and things of that nature so they kind of like to hang out around us. Gayle: Well I know a dog I was babysitting for and it was like rolling in raccoon poop and in the city we have raccoons all the time, you know? Like right in our backyard. Liz: Yeah, and it’s common for dogs to get it. Very common for dogs to get it cause dogs- Gayle: But adults can’t be infected? As much? Liz: They can but it’s just the nature of kids playing in dirt and soil. Like kids going out outside and playing in sandpits and things of that nature. Gayle: So they’re directly getting into it. Liz: They’re directly getting it, yeah. Gayle: Got ya. Liz: Gayle: 25:00 And the eggs are extremely dormant so they are extremely viable, excuse me, they can live in the environment up to five years of freezing cycles and they’re resistant to disinfectants and I think it was they could survive in temperatures up to like negative fifteen degrees and get like way down into the…yeah… So what about us gardeners? �Liz: I mean… Gayle: Don’t touch your mouth? Liz: It’s not super, yeah it’s not super common but yeah I wouldn’t touch your mouth if you’re digging around in the soil. Gayle: Yeah I wouldn’t. But I mean I have friends who let their dogs lick their faces. Liz: 25:42 Yeah I mean if they go out into the woods. Raccoon ecology they have these things they call, well they defecate in the woods into these latrines and so it’s basically like this community center where they’ll all, they’ll all like kind of defi- like all kind of in the same area so it’s…but usually there’re like seeds and things there too so small mammals will like pick up seeds from the area and become infected and then maybe a dog will get a squirrel that was infected and the dog then becomes infected and gets it. So it’s a lot more common in dogs just because they have a higher contact with raccoons and like small critters so, Gayle: Yeah rabbits do that community poop thing too. I see that in my backyard. Liz: Yeah so that’s why a lot of people always have their dogs on some sort of dewormer. Gayle: Interesting how much I’ve learned today! Liz: Yeah so if like you take good veterinary care of your dog and have them on a dewormer you should be good! I mean cause it’ll just automatically get rid of it. Gayle: Oh so like if they’re on a de-wormer they can’t transfer it to a kid anyway. Liz: I don’t think…well no because the de-wormer is gonna get rid of ‘em. Gayle: Alright. Liz: Right. Gayle: Interesting… Liz: Yeah…not to say that it couldn’t but it probably is significantly lower. Significantly lower…I haven’t really researched it… Gayle: So why, why…quick change of subject! Why did you pick Grand Valley? Did you apply to other schools too? Liz: 27:04 So I decided that if I was going to be a veterinarian and I was gonna go to Michigan State for four years I didn’t want to go there for eight years. Because I thought I would get bored, I would get sick of it cause it’s the same thing over and over and so I decided I didn’t want to do that. And so my mom is family friends with Joe Godwin who is a provost here and so he said “You should come visit Grand Valley!” and I was so against it in the beginning because I had my heart set on Michigan State but then I just decided I didn’t want to go to Michigan State but was still a little negative �on the idea of visiting other schools but I still came here and everyone was super nice and the tour of campus was just beautiful which is why I think they keep campus so nice because it is the number one thing people look for when they come to campuses is the appeal and I ended up staying with a girl from my high school that came here a weekend and I didn’t go with her to classes but I went with her to the library and walked around campus with her and she gave me more of the insider look that the tour guides maybe don’t tell you about Grand Valley and things, and I just fell in love even more. Then I just wanted to come here even more and so I only Gayle: Liz: Gayle: Liz: Like what? 28:13 Like I guess just talking about the professors here she had become close with and the organizations. She’s a special education teacher and so she volunteered in a school where she provided books for the students and became really close to these students on a personal level so it was her experiences with the extracurricular here that really caught my attention. And how much she loved the Honors program and I applied to be in the Honors program and was accepted so that was a huge part of me coming here. And so I guess her experiences, and her taking me into buildings I hadn’t seen before like they don’t show you the Honors college when you’re on tours which I think is a shame because I think that the, that that would be really cool to get to see the inside of that building and I think it’s just cause it’s so far on South Campus that it’s a lot to walk there so. I guess on…on my tour they didn’t take me there, and I’ve given a couple tours and it wasn’t on my tour thing and so yeah. I think it was the Honors College appeal that really… Was this library already here when you visited? 29:11 When I was here the steel beams were out for this library which was really exciting for me because I kind of got to see the transition and them my, my junior- my freshman year the library opened up and it was so cool to come in here and just try out all the chairs and I think that was the highlight of my roommates and myself to just come and try all the chairs because there’re so many different ones, and then to see the science building going up which was really exciting for me because I knew I would be in it my junior year cause that’s where the biology department was moving so to get to go into that new building…it was just…I guess the campus appeal was the big one and then the Honors college was my second one. I visited Ferris State University and I met with their biology advisor there who would’ve been the chair of the biology department at the time and he asked why I wanted to be a veterinarian and I told him and he told me “well why would you become a veterinarian when you could become a doctor and make more money?” And so for me after visiting Grand Valley and seeing the hospitality here and how nice everyone was and someone from the college—Libby Bonnell – who was just a sweetheart and was so nice to all the transferring students. To go from that to someone who would, was discrediting my field of choice which, veterinarians don’t even make bad money, so I was really put off by that and just to, I just wanted to be �passionate about what I do and so for him to be just so discouraging right off the bat I decided “I’m not going to go to Ferris” and we actually didn’t even finish the tour and we just left because I was so upset about it and so I decided that after that Grand Valley was my number one choice and kind of didn’t…I don’t think I even applied to Ferris, I don’t think, after that. Gayle: I wonder if they know that. Liz: I don’t know! I don’t even know who the guy was I was just so upset, and so discouraged by that. Gayle: That’s amazing. Liz: Yeah, and especially when you figure that you’re trying to get people to come to your school so… Gayle: Exactly. Liz: 31:05 I know some people don’t appreciate the arts and things of that nature, I do, but it it’s— that would be like him saying “You’re going to be an art major? Why?” you know? And so for me I think that’s really rude and condescending and I would never do that but for me that was like the analogy that I describe it as, he just didn’t appreciate my interests I guess…I don’t know. Gayle: Yeah well…bad move. Liz: That is a bad move…I hope he doesn’t do that to everybody! Can you imagine? Ugh! But a lot of people go to Ferris so they must not all meet with him, I don’t’ know... Gayle: Well…anything else you want to talk about? Liz: I don’t think so… Gayle: I mean you’re busy. Liz: I’m very busy yeah, but like a good amount of busy. End � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Connected Exhibit Interviews Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. University Libraries Description An account of the resource Collection of audio recordings and transcripts of Grand Valley State University students sharing their stories and experiences. The recordings were conducted as part of an exhibit created by the University Libraries in fall semester of 2016 titled "Connected" which featured short audio clips of students. The clips were combined with watercolor portraits of GVSU students by Ellie Lubbers and an interactive watercolor painting activity. Students were encouraged to paint 3" circles of paper to illustrate their current feelings about the college experience and attach them to the gallery wall. The aim of the exhibit was to inspire feelings of community, connectedness, and welcome to new and returning students. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/626">University Libraries. Connected exhibit files</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Universities and colleges Michigan College students Oral histories Education, Higher--United States--Anecdotes Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Cadena, Cara; Schaub, Gayle; Frigo, Emily; Lubbers, Ellie; Fisher, Erin Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV043-07 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Language A language of the resource eng Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Ritchie, Elizabeth (Liz) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-04-20 Title A name given to the resource Liz Ritchie interview (audio and transcript) Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Schaub, Gayle (interviewer) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV043-07_RitchieL_2016-04-20 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/626">University Libraries. Connected exhibit files</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401 Relation A related resource Grand Valley State University Libraries. Connected Exhibit, September 2016 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Description An account of the resource Interview with Liz Ritchie conducted by Gayle Schaub for the GVSU Libraries' Connected Exhibit, displayed in September 2016. Edited clips of interviews accompanied watercolor portraits of students and an interactive watercolor activity for exhibit visitors. Liz is a biology major, currently applying to graduate veterinary programs. A student in the Honors College, Liz comes from a rural, farm community and has known what she wanted to study since she got her first set of pigs to show at the county fair when she was only 4 years old. Liz is a driven, talented student who admits having had to learn new study and time management skills to succeed at GVSU in her very challenging field of study. In spite of her demanding schedule, Liz has found the time to be a program volunteer, a Murray International House peer mentor, and a Women in Science and Engineering (WISE) resident assistant. She credits a lot of her success to her involvement with campus activities. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Subject The topic of the resource Universities and colleges Michigan College students Oral histories Education, Higher--United States--Anecdotes https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/77a0e960a7e200c90c500bc7c45b9e73.mp4 de6c09b01f2513e0f4579a268b9f73ad https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/58591c426aed815aecc9feb6eed22759.pdf 147491065cc60cdd7eed6dcb0af1ff2c PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Vietnam War Duane Ritsema Length: 9:32 (00:30) Background Information   Duane was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan and went to school in East Grand Rapids He enlisted in the Marine Corps on March 13, 1964 because he had wanted to avoid being drafted into the Army (2:25) Vietnam  Duane went through basic training for 3 months and then went through advanced infantry training for one month  He was then sent to Vietnam and landed at the Da Nang Airfield  They traveled to China Beach and worked there for about 8 months  Looking back Duane is now glad that he enlisted because it gave him the opportunity to travel and he had many interesting experiences  He also had many tough times while in the service and his friends helped him get through things (4:15) After Service  After his time in the service Duane went back to Michigan and was surprised that he was not greeted with hostility  His return was uneventful and he thought that by the looks of thing you would have never known that there was a war going on � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RitsemaD Title A name given to the resource Ritsema, Duane (Interview outline and video), 2008 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Ritsema, Duane Description An account of the resource Duane Ritsema was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan and enlisted in the Marine Corps on March 3, 1964 because he had wanted to avoid being drafted into the Army. Duane went through basic training for 3 months and then spent 1 month in advanced infantry training. He was then shipped to Vietnam and worked near China Beach for about 8 months. Duane was later discharged and sent back to Michigan where he found that the country did not appear to be fighting a war at all. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Rossin, Tori (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American United States. Marine Corps Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2008-03-12 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a2ba78a19b4eb732a26c0cd53a42a565.jpg dd5f87cfb22f592a0ca7990382a2f0de Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Valley State University Photographs Subject The topic of the resource Aerial photographs Universities and colleges Michigan Grand Rapids (Mich.) Allendale (Mich.) Building Facilities Dormitories Students Events 1960s 1970s 1980s 1990s 2000s Description An account of the resource People, places, and events of Grand Valley State University from its founding in 1960 as a 4-year college in western Michigan. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource News & Information Services. University Communications Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/41">News &amp; Information Services. University Photographs. (GV012-01)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-03-03 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC-NC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright - Non-Commercial Use Permitted</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource image Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1960s-2000s Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Local Subject Subject headings specific to a particular image collection 1960s Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/41">University photographs, GV012-01</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-01_UAPhotos_001032 Title A name given to the resource Student outside of Lake Michigan Hall Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Ritz, Ray E. Description An account of the resource Student outside of Lake Michigan Hall. Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Allendale (Mich.) Universities and colleges Students Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC-NC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright - Non-Commercial Use Permitted</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives black and white photo https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f7aece5be9b989cab6ba6cfbfc5fa9cd.pdf a5ebce9d3a017ff09e363a7aff1ddc48 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Celso_Rivera Interviewers: Jose Jimenez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 3/28/2011 Runtime: 01:16:45 Biography and Description Celso F. Rivera was born November 11, 1949 in Coamo, Puerto Rico. It is a southeastern town of the Island; agricultural with a history sugar cane production. He is one of five siblings. The mother is Angelca and the father is Francisco Rivera. When he arrived in Chicago in 1954, the family owned their first home at 1705 N. Fremont. He remembers how content they were living amongst their own culture. The Grandfather put a barber shop in the basement. His older brother built a makeshift roller coaster unto the back stairway. Kids paid a couple of pennies to climb into a wooden crate and get pushed down into a ramp. It ended in the back yard. Next door, inside another home was a Black church which filled up on Sundays and holidays. He describes that the area was primarily a Puerto Rican enclave within Lincoln Park that bordered Willow, North Ave., Halsted and Sheffield Streets. These enclaves later formed into a much larger Puerto Rican barrio which went scores of blocks from North Ave. to Addison and from Clark to Ashland. Lincoln Park was a segregated area, he describes. There were Gypsy, Italians, Black, a few Mexican families where he lived but primarily Puerto Ricans. The kids would play sports in competition at the boys, but if they later crossed into another nationality’s territory; they �would get beaten up. It was the same in Mulligan School, Newberry and at Waller High School where the clubs turned into street gangs. Celso was working as a Public Safety Officer at St. Elizabeth Hospital, which was changing over from Polish patrons to more Puerto Rican, when he first translated for a woman that he discovered was his sister from another mother. He and his older brother visited with her and they talked as if they had known each other all their lives. �Transcript CELSO RIVERA: My name’s Celso Rivera, born November 19, 1949. I was born in Coamo, Puerto Rico. JOSE JIMENEZ: Can you -- think you can give me your name, date of -- CR: My name, Celso Rivera. Born 11/19/1949. Born in Coamo, Puerto Rico. JJ: Okay, so what was -- when did you come to the United States? CR: My mom, the family arrived in Chicago in 1954. I want to say September, October of that year. JJ: Okay, and where did you -- like what neighborhood in the city? Did you arrive by yourself, or? CR: No, my mom rented a place on North Avenue near Willow and Dayton. It was Assumption between Fremont, and she purchased a home there, probably about a year after she arrived, [00:01:00] and we lived at 1705 North Fremont. JJ: Do you remember -- what was your mother and father’s name? CR: My mother’s name was Angelica Rivera, and my father’s name was Francisco Rivera. JJ: What about any siblings, any brothers and sisters? CR: Yeah, so I was the youngest of five. JJ: What are their names? CR: David Rivera, the second oldest, Jose Rivera was the third oldest. Nelson Rivera was the fourth, and my sister, Dama Rivera. JJ: Okay, and Coamo, Puerto Rico, you’re related to Orlando (inaudible)? 1 �CR: Yes, Orlando was our cousin, and there’s a few other people that were here that were brought up in the same area. Arsenio, and quite a few, and a lot of good friends, like David. We arrived at about the same time here in the United States. [00:02:00] JJ: So is Arsenio your cousin too, or no? CR: Yes he is. JJ: So he’s cousins with Orlando too, and -- CR: There was a relationship there. Of course, you know, there’s always a lot of parenthood in Puerto Rico. Sometimes you don’t realize your cousin too, but yes, very close family. JJ: (inaudible) so you kind of arrived right at around the same time, in ’54, around that time? CR: Yes. JJ: And did they all settle in the same area? CR: Yes, fortunately, we all -- Arsenio and them lived on Willow and Dayton, at the corner. David lived on Halsted and, right off of Willow. It was really nice. It was, predominantly in that area between Armitage, North Avenue, Halsted, Willow, Sheffield, and that was a prime area for a lot of Latino people that came from Puerto Rico, so. JJ: What do you mean, it was a prime area? What do you mean (inaudible)? CR: Prime I meant because when you [00:03:00] arrived there, it was -- exactly what it was, was a lot of Spanish, you know, oriented people, and then as you spread out further into the area, there were different types -- not types, but I mean other 2 �oriental-type people, there were some white people, there was Black people. And I hate to say it, but it’s like, there was were like district in series, if you went south of North Avenue, it was predominantly Black. Then you had CabriniGreen, and then if you went north of that. But if you went west of Sheffield and up north, then you had the Italians, (inaudible) Romas, and there was other names that we used to describe each other’s statuses. JJ: What you mean, names? CR: Like groups, the Italians and the Black, the wops, the spics, the shines was another different big word that was used. There was always large [00:04:00] -- I think everything was vying for their little areas to live comfortable. And yet there was this thing that we couldn’t try to move into another area, because there would be personality conflicts, or belief conflicts. It was nice, and yet it was very tough, very tough. The Spanish people and the Black people had to really strive to get to where they want to be and do things, and it wasn’t very easy. JJ: Okay, tough in terms of survival, or tough in terms of (inaudible) -- CR: I think -- tough in survival, number one, and tough physically, because there was a sense, like if you were having partial wars, like hey, we don’t want you in our group, and you don’t want us in your group. And there was this difference that sometimes led to physical altercations where, it was [00:05:00] like a norm that if you went into a different area, you knew that you would be in a fight, or the only reason you went over there was because something happened to either groups or friends that you wanted to retaliate. JJ: You wanted to retaliate? 3 �CR: Absolutely. It’s just a -- it was like, don’t come and hurt us, and we don’t come and hurt you. But if you’re looking for trouble, we’re going to give you trouble. JJ: So, this came later, right, after you moved in? Or right when -- CR: This was -- at the beginning, it was because we were young and didn’t realize it. But as time went on by, my family, we stayed over on Willow and Fremont. That eventually predominantly became Black, as we moved north into like Armitage, Halsted, Ash-- Orchard, Burling, Sedgwick and the Lincoln Park area, [00:06:00] that was predominantly Spanish, and there were crossing lines, except there weren’t crossing lines that said that. But in your mind, you knew that if you were going to an area, you knew there was going to be some kind of conflict. JJ: So let me get this -- so you’re taking about Sedgwick, all that -- towards the lake, Sedgwick. And then all the way -- CR: Almost -- all the way to Fullerton I would say, even Belmont. But beyond that was -- JJ: Okay, so from North Avenue up to Fullerton, Belmont, that area? CR: Yes, yeah -- JJ: From Sedgwick and all the way up to West, how about West? CR: West, almost up to, I want to say California. JJ: All the way to California? CR: Yeah, and even further -- JJ: At that time, (inaudible)? CR: -- at that time, that was pretty good. But even to-- JJ: So that’s a big area, you’re talking about a huge area. 4 �CR: Huge, yeah. JJ: And it was Hispanic. CR: It was Hispanic. You know, you say it now, but when you go back into time, I thought it was a tough area, but I thought it was very nice, because you felt that you were living in your own culture. And then [00:07:00] when you left Puerto Rico, I was very young. But you felt comfortable. You know, you walked down the street and you spoke Spanish, and your friends all used to eat rice and beans. Our culture, really, and our natural cultures didn’t disappear. You know, I still eat rice and beans, I’m almost 70 years old, and we still eat pasteles, and we celebrate Christmas the way it was. And it’s hard because you were brought up by your parents, and your parents worked very hard. JJ: What kind of work? What kind of work did you -- CR: My mom worked for Carbit Paint Company, it was a chemical paint -- on Blackhawk, and right off of North Avenue, it was -- fortunately, the company’s still there. JJ: Do you remember the name? CR: Oh yeah, Blackhawk -- it’s Carbit Paint Company. JJ: Blackhawk paint company? CR: Yes, and my dad worked for some wood company, but I didn’t know much of my dad -- when he left, I was like eight years or nine years old. He left and went [00:08:00] back to Puerto Rico. JJ: And then, (inaudible) in the family and (inaudible) -- 5 �CR: Yeah, and maybe my oldest brother might know a whole lot more than (inaudible), but I don’t remember much of him, so. JJ: So he never came back? CR: No, he never came back. In ’85, my mother told us that it was possible that we had two other siblings from his second marriage, and we should go meet them. And we did, and that’s when I first actually met my father where I knew that he was my dad, in some relationship. He told us that we had two sisters over here. At that time, I was working for a hospital administration. And they called me down to translate, and -- JJ: What kind of hospital, which hospital? CR: This is Saint Elizabeth’s Hospital, it was just a regular general practical hospital. And it’s amazing, because he called me -- JJ: And this is on Western? CR: Yes, on Western and Oakley, right between the -- right between Division and North Avenue, which is -- JJ: What did you do there? CR: That’s Humboldt Park area. JJ: And what did you do there? [00:09:00] CR: I was doing public safety for them. JJ: Public safety? CR: Yes, and it was really nice. JJ: As a security guard? You were a security guard? 6 �CR: Yes, we were the head of the program, we had -- it was a wild area. Humboldt Park was considered a gang-infected area as time went by. And they needed -the neighborhood’s clientele was changing from Polish to Spanish. So they wanted Spanish-speaking people so they can communicate better with the incoming crowds. And the doctor asked me to come down and translate. And it’s funny cause he says, “You see that attractive young lady over there, Cel?” I says, yeah. “I need help translating cause her son just, he fell out of the window.” So I go okay, so I go over there, and she looked at my name, and she goes, “Are you Rivera? Are you Rivera from Puerto Rico?” I says, “Yeah.” She says, “Do you know anybody, you know Francisco?” And I say, “Well Francisco, I know that he was my dad.” She goes, “Yeah, well I’m your sister.” And you know, we exchanged [00:10:00] information on each other’s family, and that evening, I says, “Why don’t you come over to my house? I just live down the street from here.” And she goes, “That’s fine, give me the address.” And then I call Nelson, and they were -- all, it’s like we knew each other forever, but we didn’t really know each other. But it was -- even today, that sister’s living with my sis out in California and North Avenue in the senior citizen’s home. She never moved out of her neighborhood. JJ: So tell me, what school did you attend? What grammar school? CR: Grammar School, I went to Mulligan Grade School on Sheffield and Halsted. And I used to cross Clybourn Street. One of the best times to go, even though I was very little. Cause we went there from up to about, I want to say, fifth grade, and it was four buildings, and it was maybe a block-and-a-half away, [00:11:00] 7 �maybe two blocks from my house, so we used to run home for lunch. So, I met a lot of great people that I’m still in contact with, which is really, really nice. But it was pretty mixed, and it was pretty tough. The kids coming from west of Sheffield, or north of Fullerton, they had to deal I think with the same problems we had to deal with, that we didn’t want the other cultures to mess with us, and they didn’t want the Spanish and Black cultures to mess with them, because (inaudible) -JJ: Would you -- I’m sorry, I didn’t -- the school, I can’t hear, the school? CR: Mulligan Grade School. JJ: Mulligan, okay, so that a few people that I know went to that school, and I think some of the Young Lords who were on that street. CR: Yes, absolutely. JJ: So what was Mulligan like? CR: Mulligan was -- to us, we were too young, and we knew there was a lot of nationalities, [00:12:00] and you know -- JJ: What were some of the many nationalities? CR: Spanish. JJ: You said Spanish and Mexican, Puerto Rican? CR: Puerto Rican, there wasn’t -- very few Mexicans lived in that area, in that particular area at that time. And then you had the Italians, because they were off of Sheffield and Fullerton, Belmont, west of that. And there was just a couple grade schools at that time, so a lot of kids -- we had a big -- four floors. You know, two small playgrounds, just like any other grade school at that time. 8 �JJ: So, I know they lived with with a couple of Mexican families, (inaudible). CR: Yeah, Daniel [Samuyo?], which is, was one of them. JJ: Oh, you knew Daniel [Samuyo?] (inaudible)? CR: Oh yeah, we’re still -- JJ: (inaudible) CR: -- (laughs) on Facebook. And of course, his sister, and we were real good friends with them. We still are. JJ: (inaudible) CR: Yeah, we still talk quite a bit. And then there was -- JJ: He lived on Dayton. We lived next door to each other. CR: Yeah, Dayton, then you had the barber right across the street on the other side. Absolutely, [00:13:00] that’s the guys. And we knew Antonio Lopez, who was an older gentleman. His kids were there even before we were. And, but there was just very few -- you know, from Mexico. JJ: It was mostly a Puerto Rican -- CR: Yes, absolutely. JJ: (inaudible) Hispanic (inaudible). CR: Yes. JJ: Okay, let me see something. Okay, if you wanna proceed. CR: Yeah, from Mulligan Grade School, it was -- nearby, we went to Newberry, which was considered a middle grade school. So we were there, which down the street, we walked, cause it was just about three-and-a-half blocks, right on Willow and Newbury, and Burling. And so we -- 9 �JJ: Was there a difference? Can you tell the difference between the schools? CR: Yeah, you know what, it’s amazing how -- what difference the school was. It was a bigger school, there was [00:14:00] more space, to do, there were better gyms. Not a whole lot better, but you know, good size. And then the nationality grouping was really, really different. Then you had the Black students, and then there was a section there between Newberry and Orchard, but south of the school was what we called Gypsy people. And they were there. And they too were very tough, because they were always -- I guess they were always being picked on by the fact that they wore different clothes, and different style. But the Spanish culture still was a big presence in that area, because that’s the way it was starting to get. And then right there from Newberry, there was a club called Lincoln Boys Club, which was a stabilizing place. It’s unbelievable that when we used to go there, it didn’t matter what grouping or nationality you belonged to. You wanted to play ball and basketball, and end up -- the fight was competition. [00:15:00] But then, as soon as that’s over, you saw each other in one grouping. You know, just coming into the other side where you’re not supposed to be, there was a fight, because you know, that’s our area. It just doesn’t change, it’s just -- JJ: It’s like a peace treaty or something? (inaudible) There was no fighting over there? CR: With peace -- you know, it’s amazing, the peace treaties -- JJ: Right, and I call it peace treaty (inaudible) -- CR: Yeah, no, no, but you’re right. We used to go and play ball, and with sports, it was okay. But if you were there, just to walk around, and you think that you can 10 �do on their, what I call territory, they wouldn’t allow you to do that. You know, that’s just the way it was. And then of course from there, we just -- we were still over on the -- living on Fremont and Bissell, and we walked all the way to what they call Arnold Upper Grade Center, which was on Orchard and Armitage between Halsted and Orchard. And that still, [00:16:00] you know, was a Spanish-oriented neighborhood. And then what happened then after -JJ: (inaudible) sorry -- what happened then, go ahead. CR: Yeah, it was still Spanish-oriented, and we graduated. And then, my same -- the same group, David [Pantoja?] and all these people were still the same together, Cha-Cha, we used to know. And the guys we used to run with. So then we went Arnold Upper Grade Center. Then we decided now we’re growing up. We’re not growing up, 13 or 14, we’re going to Waller High School, and that--. JJ: So before we get to Waller, (inaudible) so -- how were the teachers in Mulligan, and then how were the teachers in Newberry, and then Arnold? CR: You know, and to me, that’s a good acknowledgment of -- when you were at Mulligan, predominantly staff was -- I’m saying White, [00:17:00] because that’s the only way I would describe them. Because I didn’t know if they were German or Irish, but to me they were just white-oriented people. When I went to Newberry, it was the same thing. When I went to Arnold Upper Grade Center, it was still the same thing. I don’t recall seeing another nationality, I would say color-wise, other than white-oriented staff. When I went to Waller, it predominantly was still the same. I only knew my biology teacher was Black. The police administrator -- the consultant, and Franklin Lee [Toritino?], was 11 �Italian, so they had two policemen. But the culture of the school was, I want to say maybe 30, 40 percent Hispanic, about 50 percent Black, which was still -[00:18:00] it was predominantly Black because -- and then we had the mixed, we had a little bit of Italian people that lived outside of the Webster and north of Belmont, in that area which was had to be bused in, Lincoln Park, Grand Ave, and it was really diversified. And in even the school setting, we used to -- you have to group and walk very careful. Say what you got to say. And be careful what you say, because there was retaliation process, a retaliation process from the groups. And you had to really take care of yourself, and take care of who you thought were your friends. Fortunately for us, we had several groups and we had several kids, we had a couple Polish kids that were brought up with us in the neighborhood, so. But going into Waller, it was -- [00:19:00] (inaudible; break in audio) -- be great. Yeah, so the time at Waller High School, my four years, the outside environment was also taken care of by sorts of individuals that believed that the area was territorial, and we -- and at that time, we had quite a few club members, at that time they were considered gang members, as you see them today, and you really look back, it was actually club members, I personally belonged to the Continentals, and we were in the area -JJ: How did this start? CR: Well the Continentals, I went to a softball game, and I -- JJ: Where was the softball game? CR: Over at the Lincoln Boys Club, and over at (Eisen?) YMCA, which is on North Avenue, and they asked me to -- 12 �JJ: Do you know what year? CR: Oh yeah, 1966, and ’67, because I was still in my high school, and we started -the Continentals [00:20:00] were -- a few guys were going to the same high school I was and they asked me if I wanted to play ball, and I says, well I don’t really want to join a gang, I just want to play ball. It’s not a gang, it’s a club. It’s called the Continentals, we play ball, we play sports. And deep in my heart, I knew it was -- we had to use those things so that we don’t -- be seen as it’s a gang, but in the -- we used to play the Black Eagles, and Paragons used to be around, Romas used to be around. The Latin Kings. JJ: So did you guys fight the Paragons? CR: It’s amazing that all these groups were in that area, and they were sculptured by the Hispanic, but yet we saw differences, and we didn’t -- nobody wanted to go past Dayton and Seminary or that area, because they belonged to a certain group. The Continentals were on Larrabee, [00:21:00] North Avenue, and Orchard. But all these groups, in reality, was just trying to make sure that nobody from that outside perimeter would come into that area. I personally even today think that if there were big groups, and we had to, let’s say defend our territory, all these groups would get together by the fact that they were Spanish. JJ: Did that ever happen when (inaudible)? Did all the Hispanic groups get together? CR: I don’t remember. You know, cause I was a little bit younger. But I do know that if there was groups in one area, and people needed help, if Romas come over, the Scorpions come over from Webster, and, that they were willing to, hey you 13 �know, the fact that you don’t belong here and this is our area. Yeah, we’re going to run you out. You know, and then of course the Young Lords were a big party of -- the scenario there, I [00:22:00] remember because my brother was involved with them. I remember Cha-Cha was doing the interview. Manuel, I remember it when they were starting to lose some civil liberties, responsibilities, I still remember the day they killed Manuel over on Armitage, on Dayton and Fremont, I’ll never forget. JJ: (inaudible) I think the -- CR: The police killed him. JJ: Police killed him (inaudible), but (inaudible) they -- CR: Your area, right. And then the People’s Church, which was a big part, of course (inaudible) -- JJ: (inaudible) remember (inaudible)? CR: Oh yeah, I knew Manuel. We played ball and we played softball. And then I think they killed another person. And when we read about it, you know, we was real sad. JJ: (inaudible) CR: Yeah, and People’s Church on Dayton was their locale to relate situations to their neighborhood. JJ: How did you see People’s Church (inaudible)? CR: I thought it was a great thing. I felt that they were doing something [00:23:00] to improve, just like it is today. You know, today it’s just as difficult, I think, as it was 50 years ago. You know, the profiling hasn’t really changed that much. They 14 �just do it in different ways. I remember still when they took over the DePaul Theological -- (inaudible) the Seminary, which was right off of Halsted and Belden and Fullerton, which is still there. And they strongly built a big social service building on Halsted and between Willow and Armitage and that building, I don’t know if it was still there. But it served as a service point for -JJ: You remember when that happened McCormick Seminary? CR: I think -- I don’t exactly remember the date, but it had to be in ’67 -- JJ: How did you feel about -- CR: Oh I felt it was the right thing to do, because there was nobody going to [00:24:00] do anything for anyone at a higher level of government. You know, they -- it’s unfortunately that that’s what it is. And then, I think they really did it the right way, and I think that sometimes -- JJ: Your brother was part of that? CR: Oh yes, my brother David was a big part of that. JJ: So, how did you -- how did it resonate with your family? How did it -- CR: Well my mom was only concerned that we didn’t get hurt, or we didn’t hurt innocent people, which that never happened. I personally thought that they were striving against the system itself. You were chased off the corners, you were whiplashed if you were at the playground after eight o’clock. You had different concerns, but the concern was to make sure that we didn’t either move or strive out of that area. You know, and even though I did graduate from Waller High School and went on to [00:25:00] other schools, the -- JJ: What other schools? 15 �CR: -- Waller was ranked 33 out of the 36 high schools, as far as academics. So they knew that that school was set up for failure, you know. And I think the -- a lot of the organizations as they grew up, like the Young Lords, were telling hey, when are you going to do better for our people, our students? Which nothing really much changed then. And today, Lincoln Park High School’s a big-time academic school, so you see that. JJ: So now they call it Lincoln Park High School. CR: Yes. JJ: They changed it. Okay, so how do you see the -- you saw the Young Lords and thought it was a positive thing? CR: Oh yes. JJ: You just worried that the people were not going to get hurt, anybody was going to get hurt? CR: That was the big issue there. But our people did get hurt, yeah. [00:26:00] JJ: And you mentioned that you were a safety officer at -- CR: At the hospital, yeah. JJ: So at that time, the Young Lords were kind of militant, and they were trying to connect with the Black Panthers, and they were talking against the police and that? CR: Absolutely. JJ: How did you -- where did you get the idea for the -- cause there was a lot of police that came out of Lincoln Park. CR: Oh yeah. 16 �JJ: (inaudible) people that grew up with us. But why did you get into that? I mean, and why? CR: Well, number one, right after high school, ’68 was probably one of the roughest years in -- it was all history for everybody. You had, Martin Luther King got killed that year. There was the riots. You had the -- President -- not president, but the president’s brother Bobby, Robert Fitzgerald Kennedy got killed. And then [00:27:00] you had -- there was two other things that just -- you know, there was just, nothing going on right. They had the Democratic riots in Lincoln Park, you know. JJ: The Democratic convention? CR: Yes, and that was a nightmare. They had -- they did a curfew. JJ: Was that a big thing? CR: It was huge. I mean, half of Chicago got -- there were all kinds of disturbances, there was a lot of rioting. Mayor Daley, at that time Richard Daley had sent out a big message, telling the City of Chicago that if rioting and stealing and causing damage would continue, that he’s giving the police the authority to shoot on sight. Why would you go kill people knowing that basically what they’re doing, I know it’s wrong, but they’re just taking things that they need, because they can’t - they don’t have the jobs, and we didn’t have jobs and the opportunities that most people had. And then of course, going in the ’60s when I came back, [00:28:00] I went to the service, I came back. JJ: You went to the service? CR: Yes. 17 �JJ: What -- CR: The United States Army, and it was no different there. JJ: Did you go to Vietnam, or? CR: I went overseas to both Germany and the other place. And there was no difference. The Hispanic and Black population as you grew up, knew that there was a reason to -- and you know it now because it’s been admitted by the government, that at the time, there was a legal genocide to try to get rid of most Blacks and most Hispanics by sending them to war. Because there was no deferments for the Hispanic kids or the Black kids, but the white kids. And then there was no National Guard, or Coast Guard, and they would go and serve three months and get trained, but come back to the United States, where we had our full time of service. Myself, David [Pantoja?] went to Vietnam, we came back. Juan [Pantoja?], his brother went, my brother Jose. JJ: So you saw each other there? CR: Yeah, oh yeah, we knew [00:29:00] each other then, and we had very different times, and my best friends, Eddie Nunez, came back [from overseas?], and he was hooked up on drugs. He lasted seven months, and he passed away over there on Halsted, and it was just not a nice thing. I know that we live here in the United States, but the United States government at that time, and even sometimes today, are not doing things that you think they should be doing. When I came back in ’71, I went back to school, and that’s when I got into the medical field, this is public safety. So I worked at Swedish Covenant. I was the only Hispanic in the management group. And still the neighborhood was still in 18 �the process of going under big change, because I went back to live over there in Armitage, and then I lived on Howe Street, which is just across the street from Waller High School. So we lived there, and -JJ: It went through a change? CR: Oh, big change. [00:30:00] The neighborhood now is not totally Hispanic now. You know, and it got to the point where now -- JJ: What time did the change (inaudible)? CR: Seventy-three, ’74, ’75, ’76, (inaudible), because I remember in ’77, I met my first wife, and she lived in Humboldt Park. And so she says, why don’t you move from Howe Street -- [from my ma’s building?] -- when she was still alive. And I go, I have no problem with it, you know, if that’s what you want to do, so I did. And then, I caught myself going wow, you know, I just left the neighborhood, it was going through changes. But now you’re older, so now you’re thinking -- will it be a good change or not a good change? And I go yeah, I think a good change. It’s not the old neighborhood it used to be. And it’s amazing when I moved over there to Oakley and Hirsch, it was -- JJ: Did it improve? CR: Oh yeah, Lincoln Park, at this point -- JJ: For the people that live there? CR: Yes, if you want to live there, you have -- JJ: (inaudible) CR: No, (inaudible) very little Hispanic. (laughter) [00:31:00] They’re gone, you know. JJ: (inaudible) you can’t (inaudible). (inaudible) didn’t improve for (inaudible). 19 �CR: It didn’t improve for us because we were still struggling with getting better education, better jobs, and that didn’t happen for quite a while, even after that. But you saw the affluent people, the people with money -- JJ: I don’t want to put words in your mouth, [you understand that right?] CR: No, no, I totally agree. But the affluent people, people with money, bought out Larrabee, and it used to be a low-income place, and now it’s gorgeous townhouses. And people don’t put money into these areas if they don’t know there are going to be changes. So it wasn’t like, one person bought a nice house, and another saying oh, the white people are moving back in, let’s go buy in Lincoln Park. No, it was situated to the point where we were going to move the Black and Spanish people out of this area into areas, that’s where we -- I just want to say settled, [00:32:00] it was like in the west, well now we’re going to go to Humboldt Park, Division. And we did when I was -- there was a couple Black families on my block. But the predominantly neighborhood was Hispanic. And you got [Cooley?] High School -- Wells High School, all Spanish, and -- JJ: This is by Wicker Park, or Humboldt Park (inaudible)? CR: Yeah, this is Humboldt Park. Now I’m leaving Lincoln Park, it’s -- JJ: So people moved there. CR: Absolutely. You have a lot of people, just -- JJ: Moving west? CR: Absolutely, where they can be more affordable, or they feel more comfortable. JJ: So when Lincoln Park was kind of big with all the Hispanics, so Lincoln Park and Humboldt Park became (inaudible)? 20 �CR: Oh, absolutely. JJ: It still had some Hispanic -- CR: Oh, yeah, there’s, even today -- JJ: -- but not as many as -- CR: -- even today, you’re absolutely right. JJ: Is that correct? CR: That’s correct, that’s just the way it was. It was like, move out, in the old western days, well we settle this, and we can’t [00:33:00] keep it, because we’re trying to put new stuff there. Now we got to move and start again. And then when I was at -- I moved right across the street from Tuley at that time was a high school, and they made it into a grade school because the growth of population, Black people and Spanish people, at that time, love to have big families. And they had to make room for kids coming up. So Tuley became a grade school. They built Roberto Clemente High School on Western and Division to support the high school population, but they had Wells on Ashland and Division (inaudible). I don’t ever forget these names because you (inaudible). And then, you realize it, a lot of it’s still the same way. I go to visit my sister in California and right off the beach, and you can see the Hispanic culture there. But you also see the bistros, the outside chairs, which [00:34:00] would have never existed because people had so much fear of what going to go on. And the gang-related. And you know, at that time, you had the Cobras, you had still the Latin Kings, the -- a lot of groups. 21 �JJ: So before I ask you about, you mentioned how you kind of changed from the public safety mindset that you had (inaudible). What I wanted to know is, originally, why did you want to become a public safety officer? CR: Well again, what happened was -- JJ: (inaudible) people became baseball players, whatever? CR: Oh yeah, it was just something that happened, cause when I came back from school, I was working for Domingo, I think you remember Domingo? He was in charge of that Build program organization for social service. JJ: (inaudible) CR: I did some work for him, and I was starting to realize, man, you know, the only thing we’re trying to do is keep our kids out of jail, or if they’re going to [00:35:00] jail, try to find them something to do, keep them busy. You’ve got -- I give thanks (inaudible) Domingo for a quite a while. And the only thing I do remember is how much good he was trying to do for the kids and keep them out of trouble, starting sports -- JJ: (inaudible) CR: Did you? (inaudible) great, yeah. And the sporting equipment -- watching out for kids to make sure they stay out of trouble, he would take -- his car or two cars, and we’d go to parks, because we were much younger. And so, man, I don’t want to do this for a living, cause that’s what I went to school for, social service. So then I had a friend named Mick France who lived down on Halsted and Willow, an Italian kid, one of the few, and he became a police officer. But he was working at Illinois Masonic at security. He goes, Cel, why don’t you leave your 22 �job and come, and you got the education, you become one of the safety managers. And I go, okay, so. And I liked it so much, because at [00:36:00] that time, Illinois Masonic was still far north, but the – culture-wise was different. You had some whites, some Spanish and Blacks, because it was changing. But then eventually they asked me to go to Saint Elizabeth’s. And I told my boss, look, I’ve been over here, and I went to Swedish, and why -- can I know the reason why? Yeah, because it’s predominantly Spanish, also, and it’s changing. And we need people who are going to be able to relate to the culture that we’re going to be having. And he goes -- and I asked him really nicely, we’re not profiling anything here. He says no, we just got to live, but the fact is that Humboldt Park is almost going to become 80 percent Spanish, and your clientele going into the hospital is going to be Spanish. So we wanted them to feel comfortable, and we don’t want somebody, well, what are you talking about, what do you need, or you know, can you get somebody -- able to translate for you? [00:37:00] And that was a big thing for me. I felt, though I was in the public safety aspect and communications, that I loved it because I was able to help my people. And I’m saying “my people,” because I still believe that, I’m Puerto Rican, and I’m a Puerto Rican diehard. So I would tell -- and I felt good doing that. Or anybody who spoke Spanish, that -- cause I never ask, where you’re from, as long as they understood and we would communicate, I was happy. And so was the hospital. So then the -- at Saint Elizabeth’s, they asked me to go St. Anne’s. And St. Anne’s was -- same process, changing, now we’re all the way to Lavergne and 23 �Cicero, now that the culture’s moving. So that’s when they had their big flea market, and it was nice. So I stayed there for a few years. JJ: You said Lavergne and Cicero? CR: Yes. JJ: (inaudible) CR: Well, St. Anne’s was there. Yeah, but the culture was changing. So, and that’s the same thing, was a predominantly white, white neighborhood. JJ: And then -- [00:38:00] (inaudible) -- CR: It was Spanish and Black. JJ: So they keep moving. CR: Absolutely. JJ: The Hispanics kept moving. CR: Yes, and then from there -- JJ: Was that after Wicker Park? CR: After Wicker Park. JJ: That they cleaned (p Wicker Park? CR: There -- yes, it’s just amazing how the process was of -- if they started to look good here -- JJ: (inaudible) I’m putting words in your mouth. CR: No, no, they started to look good in here, you got to move. But no, that was normal. JJ: Can I ask you point blank, what -- that was the urban renewal program. CR: Yes, absolutely. 24 �JJ: So what do you think about that program? CR: I personally thought that, they were trying to -- in my opinion, they’re trying to control cities and, what do you call, precincts, for what they can and can’t do, as far as political. But I think you know, you probably understand the politics more than I do, because you knew it, you saw what they were really doing, where we were just part of it. [00:39:00] Then when you started realizing, why is all the Black people or Division and Halsted, or you got Robert Taylor, or you got Clybourne, which was predominantly Spanish. And then you got Halsted still, and then that area, and then it’s, people are moving out. And that’s what they wanted, because they also knew that education-wise, even today, we’re trying to get people educated to vote, to realize that we’re the only ones that can make changes, and we’ve got that right. The ones they don’t, it’s unfortunate, but the ones that we have, and there’s quite a few Hispanic people, you know. Then, from there, I was moved to Swedish Covenant Hospital. But then, Swedish was okay. And then we moved out of that area, and I was still going to the downtown area. And then, that was it, just part of history. JJ: Did you have any children? Did you get married? [00:40:00] CR: Yes. JJ: What age did you get (inaudible)? CR: I was married, I got married in -- I’ll never forget, it was ’70 -- I didn’t get married until ’79, but I had my first child at ’74, which was Felix. JJ: (inaudible) 25 �CR: Felix was his name. He’s – an anesthesiologist now, he works out of Beth Neal and Mercy Hospital. But he lives in Chicago. And -- but I had him in Humboldt Park. And his wife -- my wife at that time, she passed away, lived in Humboldt Park almost her entire life. So that’s why when she asked me to move from Lincoln Park, it wasn’t so much because we were close to the hospital where we both worked, because it was competing. It was that she didn’t want to take him out of that culture range. And she told us, no I want me kid to learn, to be Puerto Rican and be Spanish. She was a real proud lady, and spoke Spanish at home. That’s -- I mean, I haven’t forgotten my Spanish. JJ: (inaudible) CR: Yeah, I (inaudible) speak Spa-- I mean, I [00:41:00] speak Spanish all the time, and so does she. And then we had my daughter in ’77. Her name is Denine, same thing, she wanted her to -- at least have them go into high school, and let them make the decision if they wanted to go to the high schools in their areas, like Clemente, or at that time Josephinum was right next to us. Or did they want to go -- and I’m not afraid to say it, to go into a white culture environment, where they -- they say, whatever you guys decide for us, we’ll go there. Our education level to be is going to be, we want to go to college, and we want to become somebody. Want to do -- but I also -- fostered two kids. One passed away ten years ago from a sinus infection. But my foster daughter lives about 20 miles from my brother David in Tampa, she lives in Lakeland, and she’s a CPA for American Airlines, and she’s been down there 30 years, and [00:42:00] everybody’s always asking me, Celso, why doesn’t she want to come? I says, 26 �because when I fostered them, I went to Puerto Rico to get ’em, and they’re (inaudible) Puerto Rican, so they were eight and nine, and as they were growing up here, they didn’t like the cold. They just said dad, you know, we’re not going to like it here. I says, look, finish school, then you can go wherever you want. So, that’s exactly they did, they both finished school, and they both went down to Florida, one went back to Puerto Rico, my son. And then he went back to Florida, he passed away in Florida with a bad sinus infection. But my daughter, they felt the c-- not so much the culture, because -- but the environment. It was hot all year round, you know, it was -- that’s what they wanted to do, they wanted to walk on the shores, they wanted to go on the beaches. That’s what they did in Puerto Rico when they were young, and they missed that, even at a young age. But I didn’t stop them from (inaudible). I go down when I go see David, and I go stop by and see them, so. JJ: Do you go Puerto Rico ever? CR: I’ve been [00:43:00] to Puerto Rico, jeez -- JJ: Did you go back to live at all later, or -- CR: No, I didn’t -- JJ: -- cause you were born there. CR: Yes, I was born there. I never went back to live there. My brother Nelson did for two years. My brother Joe, before he passed away, was down there for five years. And I just, my kids -- JJ: (inaudible) 27 �CR: -- yeah, I stayed here, but we went to visit every year in February was our visiting day for me and Nelson and go to see las fiestas patronales. So we used to go there, and that’s where I met Miguel Rivera, he was there in Coamo, at his age, was the same age as I. He would play a band in baños. One day we were walking by, and he goes hey, I know you two guys! JJ: He was playing in a band? CR: He was, Miguel Rivera was playing in a band. JJ: (inaudible) in a band. CR: Yeah, music band, playing Spanish music, and we were at this -- not social club, it was a resort. And he -- (inaudible) turned around and went, who the hell knows us here? And he [00:44:00] goes, Celso, David, Miguel, Miguel! He says, from Chicago. And so we went up, and we BS’d for the whole night. JJ: Well you’re not related -- CR: No, not at all, we were just friends -- he grew up with us in Chicago and went to high school with us, I’m pretty sure you knew him. So, and it was just nice to talk to somebody, cause he was real close with Dave, I guess, not so much with me. JJ: So who else did you grow up with in Lincoln Park? What were some of the family names? CR: The [Pantojas?]. JJ: Was a family name? CR: Yes, Pantoja was a family -- David Pantoja, [Ismal?], Juan, [Isi?]. JJ: And what groups were they (inaudible) -- 28 �CR: Juan Pantoja belonged to the Paragons. David belonged to our group, he was in the Continentals, and then one time became the Golden Wings, because we used to hang around -- JJ: David Pantoja? CR: Yeah, we used to hang around on Halsted and Willow. They thought we were the golden boys, and instead of calling us the Golden Boys, they used to call us the Golden Wings. JJ: So Halsted and Willow was [00:45:00] you guys’ -- CR: Yeah, that was our area. Not our area, but we hung around on Willow and Halsted by Jesus’ house, Santiago. Who also became a policeman. With Carlos Flores, yes. Carlos -- JJ: Carlos Flores? CR: Yes, wow, Eddie Nunez was still there with them. Unfortunately, he passed away shortly after he came overseas, he was introduced to drugs. Mickey Rivera, another gentleman, Tony Velez, Miguel Rivera and his brother, Jose, I just talked to Eddie Sanchez, I talked to Jose Nieves, about three weeks ago after 50 years. JJ: Cause Joe Nieves later joined the Young Lords. CR: Yes, because of David. JJ: And he was my cousin. CR: Is that right? JJ: Yeah, Dave was your brother, right? CR: Yeah, I didn’t know that. 29 �JJ: (inaudible) my cousin. CR: Yeah, and Jose. JJ: And Jose. CR: Yeah. JJ: And Carmelo. CR: And Carmelo. You know it’s amazing, what a small world, I didn’t even know that [00:46:00] then, get to know him now. Yeah, he was -- we were the group, the Continentals, [exactly?]. And the [Borgias?] were our cousins. JJ: (inaudible) CR: You know, Raymond, and Jose. See, and we used to go over there, we used to hang over there by – a lot over there by North Avenue. JJ: You remember any of the girls? CR: Wow -- JJ: (inaudible) CR: The girls (inaudible). The girls I remember -- Danny’s girlfriend, don’t remember her full name, but I know (inaudible) nice girl from Carlos -- (inaudible) was his sister, I remember Miriam, Carmen, Candy, David’s wife, which was still Mary Sonia. Ella Torres, used to live right there on Willow and Dayton. It’s amazing, I can probably go through them here because we all went to high school together, so. JJ: The yearbook. CR: The yearbook, yeah. JJ: (inaudible) put it up on your camera. 30 �CR: Yeah -- JJ: (inaudible) CR: Waller 1968, and [00:47:00] it’s amazing, because -- JJ: Look at that, we’re going to have to -- CR: Yeah, absolutely. JJ: Make a few copies of it. That’s an important year. CR: It was -- ’68 was a big year. JJ: Everyone transformed. CR: Yes, it was a changing -- JJ: So, did you notice the Young Lords before, and the Young Lords after? CR: No, I knew the Young Lords probably when you guys started it from the beginning. JJ: From the gang days? CR: From the gang days. JJ: (inaudible) you remember, you didn’t remember the political? CR: Well I remember the political only, to that point where you had the big incident with, you know, the People’s Church. JJ: (inaudible) CR: Yeah, DePaul, but I also knew that -- JJ: When you say “the big incident,” what do you mean? What was the big incident with the People’s Church? CR: Well to me the big incident was, remember, the head of police, the priest -- I don’t know, I still say he got killed. 31 �JJ: The one that got killed, (inaudible). CR: Yeah. JJ: Okay, so how did you see that? How did the community see that? CR: The community saw that as, [00:48:00] even if we see it today, that if you got somebody that’s trying to make changes, and the changes are not acceptable to the -- what, we used to call the machine at that time, you know, out and about, they’re gonna get rid of you, you know? JJ: Oh, so you saw them? CR: Oh, absolutely. JJ: I thought that people saw that, maybe they thought the Young Lords did it. CR: No, no, you don’t -- JJ: Not the communities? CR: No, no, the community, you know, you gotta realize, and I’m still from (inaudible) that even though we might see differences, but if -- even at that time, if a Puerto Rican did something, I’m not gonna chastise them. JJ: What? CR: I’m not gonna chastise, I’m not gonna criticize some. Because I think that he’s in the same boat we are, and we want to improve ourselves, we want to do better. But that wasn’t allowed, you know. And to many years after that, when we had to be a quota, or that company’s got to hire two Blacks and two Spanish or else the government’s not gonna fund this or fund that. JJ: So it wasn’t allowed? [00:49:00] 32 �CR: No, absolutely not. And anybody who believes that the opportunity for -- you know, dream of yours, it’s never really existed. You had to go out and do what you had to do. And even today, you know, there’s still quotas, you know. It’s amazing that you don’t look that way. But when you go to schools, you know, at U of I, I went to school on an education assistance program, because they didn’t felt that I was smart enough to get into a regular program. You know, but you gotta show them that okay, well if you want me to start and crawl up the way to get to where (inaudible), I’m gonna do it. See, and they don’t like determined individuals to take charge, because they think that they’re gonna change their way of living. You know, and I don’t care where you’re living is, the white man doesn’t want to give anything to anybody that’s his, or [00:50:00] if there’s a way to stop -- of not sharing it because they don’t want to, they’ll find it. But if there’s a government which is really -- you know, you have to have this, or else, you know, equal rights, equal working rights, equal -- those things are still looked at very heavy when you walk into any place. You know, and it’s -- and even today, look what’s happening with our politics situation. You know, at one time, we came here in ’54 and ’55, the only thing we wanted to do was -- and my parents, was work and to provide a living for us. We weren’t asking for your block or your neighborhood. We were just asking for something for us to do, to do on our own. You know, and I -- no matter what you do in life, you still see that, and you see it more often, because just the distribution factor is, you know, like Lane Tech. [00:51:00] Lane Tech was on Addison and Western, I don’t forget. And I was gonna go to Lane Tech, but I -- I don’t wanna go to Lane Tech. I want to go to 33 �my neighborhood school. I think I’ll have a more difficult time going there because it’s predominantly white. JJ: So Lane Tech was predominantly white -- CR: Absolutely. JJ: And you didn’t want to go there? CR: No, plus it requested -- JJ: Were you afraid to go there? CR: No, absolutely not. I just -- JJ: (inaudible) CR: I just -- no, I felt more comfortable with the culture that was brought up from little. We came here, we were five, and the only culture that I knew was Black and Spanish. JJ: So that makes sense. But what I’m saying is, did you -- you also were kind of saying something about, you didn’t use the word discrimination, but you said that we weren’t -- they didn’t want us to improve quickly? CR: Well no, there was -- JJ: -- (inaudible) to improve slowly. CR: And that’s why those standards were set up by schools. JJ: So you said that there some form of holding us down? [00:52:00] CR: Oh no, I don’t think. You have to know by the fact is, you had districts, school districts, districted out of the area, where you had to go live in those areas to go there, why was it that at Waller High School, all the kids from Cabrini-Green were allowed to travel? (inaudible) kids from Belmont, from as far as Armitage and 34 �Cortland and Western, we were going to Waller High School. But yet if you wanted to go to Hirsch, or not to Hirsch, but to Lakeview, or to Gordon Tech, which was a private school then. But Lane Tech, you had an 8.5, da-da-da-da, and come on, how many kids coming from -- me, Puerto Rico, coming five years old, are gonna reach levels of academic -- five years or eight years, from eighth grade or first grade, to be able to read at a 9.1 or 8.1 level, you know, which that’s what was required. [00:53:00] And I can understand if they wanted their own profiles, but I don’t think they should have stopped the kids from going to a school that they wanted to go to, why? You fail because you fail. And again, the Board of Education, they didn’t do much to have Black or Spanish professors or teachers in these locations. So I just thought that when I go to Waller, I was within my culture. I felt comfortable, I didn’t have to please or feel that I have to act more sophisticated when I walk down the hallways, because you got the kids who were all dressed (inaudible), and I’m gonna wear my same jeans, and my same gym shoes, or my same sweater, you know. Eliminating that process, I go to school, see my friends. I enjoyed my time in school, and I go, and I get educated, and I go on with my life. But my brother Nelson went to Cooley High School, which was a vocational [00:54:00] school on Sedgwick and Division, right across the street from Cabrini-Green. But yet, kids were getting bused and transferred because it was a vocational school, so. JJ: And why did he go there? CR: He went there for -- JJ: Did you guys (inaudible)? 35 �CR: -- for mechanics, and for mechanical -- cause it was a vocational school, you learned trades, yeah, just like Lane. And he did very well. He’s doing well now. I mean, he went to college, he got his degree from DePaul, and then, and he’s some VP for Honeywell Corporation. JJ: This is Nelson? CR: Nelson, yeah. JJ: Oh wow, he went to DePaul? CR: Yes. JJ: Graduated from -- CR: Yeah, he got his master’s. JJ: He got his master’s? CR: Yeah, and -- JJ: I’m getting my master’s now, (inaudible). CR: Good, yeah, good for you. But no, that was an unseen feature in our Hispanic lives, it’s like -- you gonna go to college? It’s like, you finished college? [00:55:00] And the double-take even gets bigger. Why, cause I’m Puerto Rican, I’m not allowed to go school. (laughs) And that’s the way we looked at it. And I’m pretty sure, I don’t know about you, but (inaudible). You know, I remember my friends, Cel, you’re going to school? I says yeah, is that okay? How did you get in? What you doing? You know, I just went and applied and take a test. It’s not like you gotta go in there and applying for job, cause the process of going to school is to learn, so how could they expect for you to know? And that was my concept of -- you know, why am I going to school? Because I don’t know what I 36 �want to do, and you need to teach me, when you go to college. It’s the same way when you go to vocational school. If you knew what you were going to do, why go to these schools, you know? I can go fix a car, if I knew how to fix it, but I don’t. An airplane, you know, my brother went to Air Force, and he came back. JJ: Your brother went to the Air Force? CR: Yes, and he become a aerospace engineer. [00:56:00] And he does, he got out of that. JJ: Is that Nelson? CR: Nelson, yeah. And Jose worked for Union Ditson [Tracking?] Company the one on Sheffield and Dickens, one of the hardest places to work. And when he told us that he got a job there, I told him, you got hire at Union Ditson? And he goes, yeah, why, Cel? I says no, no, I just -- I was just really surprised. JJ: You mentioned Willow and Fremont and was there -- did your grandfather have a barber or (inaudible)? CR: Absolutely, he had it on the basement of -- JJ: (inaudible)? CR: Yeah, those are things I’ll never forget. You know, that was his way of making money. We got the house, my mom got the house, and I have to tell you this, because it was -- she also used to go and clean this office. And it was the lawyer [00:57:00] who told her, Angie, you have your home yet? And she goes, no, I don’t have the money to put down on it. He says, well why don’t you find a place? And she goes -- so she did, and it was on Fremont right off of Bissell. And he was the one who gave her the $500, at that time it was a ton of money. 37 �Gave her the money for the down payment. And he trusted her enough, because he knew that he was going to work, paid her back by, off payment and you know, she was still working on Carbit [Camp?] company. And we rented the top floor, we lived on the first floor, and then my grandfather made a barber shop on the lower level. And he used to cut hair, he used to cut all our high school friends cause of the ROTC program. JJ: I got my hair cut there too -- CR: (laughs) It’s amazing history. He would be there, about from eight o’clock or nine or ten o’clock, he never said no to -- JJ: What’s his name? CR: My grandfather’s name? Gregory, Gregorio, yeah. And he had such a clientele [00:58:00] that just grew up. And my grandmother lived upstairs, so we had to make sure that we had his breakfast in the morning, lunch, and it was a big porch, and we used to hang around. When you talk about it now -- JJ: You had a rollercoaster (inaudible) -- CR: Yes, my brother Nelson -- (laughs). JJ: (inaudible) CR: Now that you mention it, yeah, that’s great. JJ: So (inaudible)? CR: My brother Nelson was such a creative guy. And he says, we got to find a way to make money. And you know in Chicago, the backyards were huge, and the big porches were huge. So he built a rollercoaster from the alley stairwell going up, all the way to the porch, and he would charge two cents. And at that time, if you 38 �brought your Coca-Cola bottles back to the store, you got two cents for the small bottles and five cents for the big ones. So he would accept bottles from the kids, and he would put them in the box. And he would just [00:59:00] let you go down, and then he would let you come back. JJ: And how did it look? (inaudible) CR: It was just one big ramp going down. I would say maybe 50 feet, and then 50 feet, it leveled off, and then it goes up about 10 feet, cause it landed right back on our porch. That’s where you would -- he made a wooden cart with roller skate wheels. He put ’em -- JJ: The roller skate (inaudible)? CR: Yes, he made a frame, and he screwed them on, and then he put a backboard on the board. Then you just put your two feet, and he just let you go. JJ: No seatbelt or anything? CR: No. (laughs) There was no safety. Even if you fell off, you knew the consequences. Kids never complained, they just loved the fact that (inaudible). JJ: (inaudible) CR: Yeah, you know, and you look at-- JJ: And the neighborhood, all the neighborhood kids -- CR: Every one of ’em, and that was -- JJ: (inaudible) I knew my mother sold (inaudible). CR: Yes. JJ: A lot of families (inaudible) their own (inaudible) extra money. 39 �CR: Just to make [01:00:00] extra money. And we had a Black gentleman who lived right next door, who (inaudible) -- JJ: (inaudible) I know that (inaudible) school (inaudible). (inaudible) CR: (inaudible) you know our history. We used to work for him, we used to work selling tamales. In the summer, we used to sell snowcones. JJ: (inaudible). CR: Yeah, he would pay us a couple dollars here and there. I mean, people don’t realize, you know, I was working when it was eight, nine years old, the plastic company on the (inaudible). JJ: He would pay for you for work? CR: He would pay us for working, maybe 25 cents, but to us, that was a lot of money. I mean we used to buy a tamale for five cents. JJ: And that was in the Black community (inaudible) -- CR: That’s right, when that neighborhood changed from German to Black, and then we were the only few Hispanics. It was me -- our families, our cousins. Arsenio lived down the street. Pantojas just lived down -- we were, (inaudible) we weren’t gonna move. JJ: (inaudible)? [01:01:00] CR: Yes, we weren’t gonna move. And so we grew up with, and we were never really bothered by the Black people. So it was -- I made good friends with the Brooks’ families, the [Harby?], the Black girls across the street, Delilah, who’s a mean, mean girl. JJ: And then, Orlando, where did he live? 40 �CR: Orlando lived -- JJ: And his family, didn’t they live on Bissell and (inaudible) -- CR: On Bissell and Willow, right, that corner used to be a laundromat. And he -- they used to live on top. JJ: So everybody kind of lived on -- CR: Yes. JJ: -- on Willow Street, Halsted, Dayton, Fremont. CR: Willow, Dayton. Yeah cause Willow -- Bissell this way, Fremont, Willow. Then you got Dayton, and then you got Halsted. Then you had Burling, Orchard. You walked down there like if you were -- JJ: Like a line. CR: Yeah, it was your town. JJ: And then it just moved slowly up. CR: Yes. JJ: To, before Armitage. CR: Yes. JJ: So it was like a line from North Avenue (inaudible) -- CR: Yes. JJ: -- isn’t that correct? CR: Yes, you’re right. [01:02:00] JJ: And then it went to Willow, and then from Willow it goes (inaudible) -- CR: And all the way to Larrabee. JJ: And (inaudible). 41 �CR: That’s when everything -- JJ: All the way to Larrabee -- CR: Yes, I’d still say there’s some good memories. And when you talk about it now the way we talk about it, it was probably the best part of our lives. And the excitement, the changes. And today, you see people doing the same thing, but with more discipline. JJ: There was also a club, right, out of Dayton and Armitage, that belonged to -- I think Orlando’s family was part of it. CR: His father. JJ: Was it his father? CR: He owned that club over there on Dayton and Willow. JJ: Was that his father? CR: Yeah, that was -- (inaudible) JJ: (inaudible) CR: -- Arsenio owned it. And -- JJ: Arsenio, but that’s not Orlando’s father? CR: No, but Arsenio and them owned it together. There was three of them. And that’s where Arsenio shot somebody there. Yeah, cause (inaudible), [01:03:00] and -- JJ: (inaudible)? CR: Yeah. But -- cause -- (inaudible) JJ: (inaudible) was it Hacha Viejas or something? Some of them hung around there. CR: Yes. 42 �JJ: Did you know them, or -- CR: I don’t know (inaudible) you call each other or no, but Orlando I know real good, and his brother, yeah. JJ: But you know (inaudible), okay, (inaudible). CR: But there was, if you remember Mario, Mario’s on Halsted? JJ: Yeah, Mario, (inaudible). (inaudible). CR: (inaudible) JJ: Are they related or no? CR: Yeah, Luis Rivera is Mario’s son at that time. JJ: Oh yeah, (inaudible), related to your family? CR: No, not at all. JJ: (inaudible) CR: (inaudible), they’re from (inaudible). But we got along very well. Luri was a real tough kid, so. (laughs) A well-dressed tough kid, (inaudible). (laughs) (inaudible) JJ: He’s got a restaurant now or something. CR: He does. And then the Carmen Figueroa was there, [Leila?] was there. (inaudible) [01:04:00] (inaudible) you guys were there on Dayton and Willow on the other side, as you walk out of there, there’s just a lot of people that we knew. It was really good. JJ: (inaudible) kept moving up. CR: Yes. JJ: And I think everybody kind of moved in there around the same time. 43 �CR: Oh yeah, cause we grew up a lot, and we’re almost all, you know, same grade school, same high school. JJ: (inaudible) in ’56, because my father had a ’55 car. CR: Yeah, well we were there ’54, and my first (inaudible) -- JJ: Yeah, you went in (inaudible). CR: (inaudible) Mi mama bought was ’56 or ’54 Chevy. JJ: (inaudible) brother, (inaudible)? CR: (inaudible) butcher shop, La Polleria. JJ: (inaudible) did you work there? CR: Yeah I worked there for -- JJ: So can you describe that -- CR: Oh that’s -- and again, you know -- JJ: Recent one -- CR: And doing a lot of separation, the owner was Jewish. But you know, today, even today, I thought he was probably the [01:05:00] closest person to us because he hired all of us. You know, we all worked. Nelson worked, David worked, Joe worked, I was the last one who worked. David’s son -- JJ: (inaudible) CR: Yeah, and David’s son -- worked there. JJ: And it was called La Polleria? CR: La Polleria, yeah, and he (inaudible) -- live chicken, live ducks, rabbits, and whatever was left -- JJ: You killed them right there? 44 �CR: Yeah, we killed them there, cleaned them there. JJ: Why didn’t people want (inaudible)? CR: Probably because he had -- a real rotation people who were really (inaudible), because we had a clientele, there was a lot of restaurants. Martinez, and then we had Ramsey Lewis’ mom who lived right there on, at, I want to say Orchard and North Avenue, and she was coming back 30, 40 -- young pullets or young chickens. And she would never go in, and she would ask us to go around because she couldn’t stand the stench from the chicken. [01:06:00] And it was great, and whatever was left over, he used to give it to us and take home. He would pick us up, because, you know, we didn’t drive, and drive us home. So sometimes, you know, I sit here, or even today I talk to people and go, I still have my prejudices. You know, I’m not -- I don’t like prejudice, a lot of people don’t understand that word, prejudice just means you don’t like, and that I didn’t like. But this man, I loved, because -- and yet it was difficult for me, though I know that he was Jewish and white, that I knew that that person was a different part of my life, cause he treated us like the way we’re supposed to be treated. And then when you cross over the line over on Halsted, past Armitage up to the other side, you knew that you had to watch yourself. JJ: Past Armitage, so there was -- CR: Yeah, Belden, north -- JJ: They didn’t let you -- CR: No, they didn’t like -- JJ: -- (inaudible) Puerto Ricans? 45 �CR: -- no, because that was still part of their -- we’re -- [01:07:00] JJ: So up to Armitage (inaudible) -- CR: Yeah, we were going into the -- wrong way, you want to come back this way. JJ: I remember on Willow and -- but it could have been before you were -- I mean, you were just going on -- CR: Yeah. JJ: But on Willow and Dayton, there was the Dayton Street Boys, I remember that. CR: Yeah, and then they had the -- JJ: Did you meet –- know any of them? CR: No, and then I remember the Folk Music -- the Folk Song Music Guitar Shop was there, forever, yeah. It was there when we were walking on the streets. But nobody -- they didn’t bother nobody, nobody bothered them. They just want to know how to play guitar. I had a friend who went there to play guitar, so you know. He’s just, (inaudible). JJ: Just like a little (inaudible) Dayton Street Boys? CR: Yes. The Dayton -- JJ: Orlando had a fight with them, that’s how it started. CR: Yes, yeah. JJ: So what else (inaudible) --? CR: What was that? JJ: What else did the Continentals do? [01:08:00] 46 �CR: Well the Continentals were -- you know, they mostly was at sporting events, you know, we lived at Lincoln Boys Club, and of course, North -- what’s that place on North Avenue by Wells Street, there was a church there. JJ: Old Town over there? CR: Oh yeah, Old Town we used to hang around -- JJ: (inaudible) by Wells Street? CR: Yeah, we used to hang around, right on the corner before Wells Street, there was a church. So we used to play softball in the back park. And it’s still there. JJ: (inaudible) CR: And there’s where -- we used to hang around most of the time. And then, Lincoln Park, Lincoln Boys Club was another place, cause we played a lot of ball there. JJ: So they were part of the Triangle Association. They had their own little center. CR: Oh yeah, yes, absolutely, and -- JJ: That takes me to another thing. So the Triangle Association, and some of the other neighborhood associations, they came up with a plan to [01:09:00] -- which you kind of touched on it before, to get rid of the Latinos (inaudible) -- CR: Oh yes, absolutely. And -- JJ: How did that affect -- CR: Well, it affect really us -- JJ: (inaudible) CR: -- it affected us in a sense that our -- I want to say our common area was getting depleted. JJ: Was what? 47 �CR: Depleted, it was just being, slowly but surely moved away to a point where -- JJ: I mean, did you think, some people thought it was an improvement. CR: It’s an improvement -- JJ: I mean some of our people (inaudible) our parents, some of our parents thought it was a good thing. CR: Yeah, but eventually, how many -- JJ: I mean, (inaudible) -- without me putting words (inaudible) -- CR: No, you’re not putting words in my mouth -- JJ: -- I want to know what you thought about it-- CR: I personally thought about it, that the improvement was, just strictly, and, oh wow, look, the street looks nice. [01:10:00] Hey, but you know what, what happened to the Nieves family who lived down the street down there? You know, their house is getting remodeled and (inaudible), but they don’t live there anymore. Santino family, the Dominguez family across the street from us, David Montoya?, I go, hey Dave, what’s going on? My dad sold the house. Why? They offered him money, and da-da-da. Then -- we never sold. We didn’t sell until my mom died in ’85. And our building’s still up, but you know, and our next-door neighbors, the Borgias, the girl Martha, her parents just, I’m not selling. When I sell, I’m getting ready to sell -- JJ: (inaudible)? CR: Oh yeah. Well we didn’t -- JJ: And your parents didn’t want to sell? CR: No, my mom didn’t sell. 48 �JJ: But she just (inaudible) -- CR: She passed away there, and we -- and the only reason -- JJ: Why was she adamant that she didn’t(inaudible)? CR: Because it was changing the culture of the neighborhood. JJ: So she wanted to keep the culture? CR: Oh yeah, absolutely. JJ: (inaudible) CR: Oh yeah, she didn’t -- JJ: Amazingly, I mean -- CR: She didn’t want [01:11:00] McNamara to move next door. She liked the way -Rodriguez sounds. JJ: Is that why she wanted to stay? CR: Absolutely. And I’m saying it now, just a simple life. You can’t be something, another color, that you think it is, and it’s not. See Cha-Cha, you live, even today when we moved -- when I moved in here, these people (inaudible) -- JJ: (inaudible) very strong. CR: Oh yeah. JJ: In terms of their culture, they wanted (inaudible). CR: Absolutely, yeah. JJ: And nobody paid attention to (inaudible) -- CR: No. Look what’s happening in Humboldt Park. They wanted to knock the flag down. Oh, there was going to be a war about that flag. And you know that, and I know. A lot of people don’t know that you just -- it’s not an ego thing, it’s a pride, 49 �it’s in the heart. You got people caring about what they are and what they do. I made sure that my kids never forgot how to speak Spanish. I sent them to Puerto Rico for a year to go to school and work. I said, no, you will talk, you’ll learn your culture, period. That’s just what life is [01:12:00] all about. Now I don’t care what they do with their kids, because it's a different world. But with me, my grandmother, and you know my family, my grandmother wouldn’t allow us to talk English at the dinner table. It was a smack to the jaw. Yeah, don’t talk to me in English. And I still -- see that, where people get aggravated -- like the Hindu people population’s getting big now in our schools, and us. But you still see it when you say, hey, you’re in America. Yeah, the land of the free. Why are you -- is it only the land of the free when it doesn’t affect you? Or because other people are doing something different that you don’t do? And that’s -- to understand what we do, you don’t understand our language, our habits, our cultures. It’s hard. JJ: So David Pantoja and all these people, do you still see them? CR: I see [01:13:00] David, yeah. JJ: And where do they live? CR: David lives on Montana and -- in Central Park. Jose lives in Arkansas, which I’m gonna see this, he’s gonna come up here at the end of the year. Who else do I know that goes down there? My uncle still live on Fremont. JJ: On Fremont? CR: Yeah, my mother’s brothers, in Lincoln Park. JJ: They’re still living there? 50 �CR: Yeah, and -- JJ: Does anyone else? CR: Yeah, and -- JJ: And he hasn’t sold it? CR: No, and [Martha Rovinas?], she’s in Puerto Rico, but her brother still lives on Sheffield off of Halsted, two of those (inaudible) buildings. So we -- those are people they knew that that’s what their life was. You know, and but [Ishmael?] lives in [Latport?]. But his property is there, but his family lives there, his sons live there. He’s just -- I’m not renting into -- I hate to say this, I’m not (inaudible) anybody else that’s not in my family, [01:14:00] to say it nicely. JJ: (inaudible) like the majority of the people, where did they go to? After Lincoln Park? CR: A lot of them went up north. A few went to Puerto Rico, [Ishmael?] (inaudible). JJ: (inaudible) CR: Yeah, other -- and a couple went out to the suburbs. I went out to the suburbs. JJ: (inaudible) CR: Then I moved back here, which I like a lot. But there’s a lot of people still living in Chicago. JJ: When they went to the suburbs, they went to the real expensive neighborhoods? CR: No, they just -- in Chicago, to me, there was really no expensive neighborhood. It was a culture neighborhood. Because they can’t charge you any more than the other guy who got the money for it, yeah. And I think they still -- JJ: (inaudible) culture. 51 �CR: Oh yes, well that’s big. You know, and my kids -- JJ: And this developed in Lincoln Park (inaudible). CR: Yes, very strong. And even though it’s the youngest one, and I live -- today I have more respect [01:15:00] for what you guys did, because I was too young to understand what you were doing. But to see what’s going on today, I recollect, oh this is the same issues that we had 50 years ago, see? And that’s what’s sad. It doesn’t change. JJ: What are some final thoughts? For, you know, people that are gonna see this, it’s a permanent thing, so their family are gonna see this(inaudible) -- CR: I would personally let my friends know that this has happened, and when it comes out, I want you guys to let me know. And they’ll probably say, oh, why didn’t you call us, we would have gave some of our opinions. And David still thinks the same way. Jose was a firm believer, because he used to be with you guys, and with us, and I love Jose, and now he’s [01:16:00] in Arkansas, and he was one of the biggest, firm believers that it’s going to be very, very difficult to change the culture. And some of my friends have moved to Arizona, Eddie Sanchez lives in Florida, we’ll see them. And I still think today that we have a very long way to go, and the long way is that the school system has to change, because in my time, they separated the cultures, and they set them up to fail, not to succeed. And I believe that. I still do, yes. JJ: All right, thank you very much, I appreciate that. END OF VIDEO FILE 52 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/01bf2443095370292c5e3f297388e58b.mp4 3593f80027509a286144b26b590dd9cd Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Celso Rivera vídeo entrevista y biografía Descripción Spanish language Description entry La historia oral de Celso Rivera, entrevistado por Jose 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez el 03/28/2011 acerca de los Young Lords en Lincoln Park. Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Narrativas personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Rivera_Celso Title A name given to the resource Celso Rivera video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rivera, Celso Description An account of the resource Oral history of Celso Rivera, interviewed by Jose 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez, on 03/28/2011 about the Young Lords in Lincoln Park. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Young Lords collection (RHC-65) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-03-28 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/af74de5c30671affcb16f5b1666858bc.pdf f438cfde2925327d9c1843a529989a94 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Modesto Rivera Interviewers: Jose “Cha Cha” Jimenez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 2/7/2012 Biography and Description English Modesto Rivera is a Young Lord raised in the La Clark neighborhood, Lincoln Park, and with the Hillbillies of Chicago’s Uptown. His father and uncle, Mario Rivera, were among the first Puerto Rican business owners in the city, operating a grocery store at 733 North Clark Street and advertising on the local, Mexican radio station. In this interview, Mr. Rivera recalls how his uncle was especially well-known because he would give credit on a trust basis to Puerto Rican families, who treated him like the mayor. His uncle did not like Mayor Daley because “every time he would settle down, the neighborhood was forced to move and he was forced to move as well.” Mr. Rivera is a strong community organizer and door-to-door precinct worker. He has worked in many political campaigns, including the Jiménez for Alderman Campaign (1973-1975), Helen Schiller’s Aldermanic Campaign, and the Harold Washington Campaign. During the Washington Campaign, Mr. Rivera worked alongside David Mojica and José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and participated in organizing the first Latino rally held by the Young Lords, in support of electing the first African American mayor in Chicago’s history. Mr. Rivera also worked for the City of Chicago and continues to be active in his community. �Spanish Modesto Rivera es un Young Lord que creció en el vecindario de La Clark en Lincoln Park con los Hillbillies de Chicagos Uptown. Su Padre y tío, Mario Rivera, fueron unos de los primeros Puertorriqueños que era dueño de su propio negocio. Su mercado estaba en 733 North Clark Street y tenia anuncios en la estación mexicana del radio. Durante este entrevista Señor Rivera hable sobre su tío quien fue conocido porque daba crédito en el base de confianza de la familias Puertorriqueñas, quien a cambio lo trataban como alcalde. No le gustaba al Alcalde Daley a su tío porque “cada vez que él se mudaba el vecindario tenia que moverse y él también se tenía que mover.” Señor Rivera es un dedicado organizador para la comunidad y camina de puerta a puerta como trabajador de recinto. El trabajo en muchas campañas políticas, incluyendo la de Jiménez para Alderman (1973-1975), la de Helen Schiller Alderman, y la campaña para Harold Washington. Durante la campaña de Washington, Señor Rivera trabajo con David Mojica y Jose “Cha-Cha” Jimenez y tomo parte en organizar la primer concentración de Latinos por los Young Lords, en apoyo de elegir el primer alcalde Afro-Americano en Chicago. Señor Rivera también trabajo por la Cuidad de Chicago y continua trabajando como activista en su comunidad. �Transcript [00:00:00 - 00:01:00] (off-topic conversation; not transcribed) JOSE JIMENEZ: Go ahead and tell me when you were born. MODESTO RIVERA: My name is Modesto Rivera. I was born May 17, 1954 in Henrotin Hospital on LaSalle and Oak, which is part of the Chicago and Clark Avenue neighborhood, Chicago, La Clark. JJ: Okay. When you said it was Chicago, La Clark neighborhood, what do you mean? MR: Well, that’s one of the first Puerto Rican communities in Chicago. And -- JJ: So, where were you living then? And you were born -- MR: On my birth certificate -- my birth certificate says 118 West Chicago, which is actually the address of a restaurant that my father owned, the Vencedor, which he actually bought from his brother that went around -- he went around the corner [00:02:00] and opened up The Newberry Grocery Store at 850 North Clark, next to the Newberry Theater, which was across the street. But we called it Bughouse Square, which is actually Washington Square Park. One of the oldest, if not the oldest city park in the city, is Washington Square Park, Bughouse Square. And then down the street at 733 North Clark, my uncle Mario owned a store called Spanish American Store, and that was the most popular one because he actually was there a little longer and he had some good advertising. And the Vencedor was actually across the street, the Chicago Avenue Police Station, 119 West Chicago. And we used to get a lot of 1 �customers that were police officers. And I believe the Vencedor [00:03:00] was actually one of the original liquor license that was given to a Puerto Rican. My uncle got that license, Ramon Monchito Rivera. JJ: And what was that area like? I mean, what do you recall -- MR: I was a baby. But knowing from my parents’ conversation, it was mixed. It was mixed. It was Puerto Rican, Irish. And I just remember that it was one of the first communities. So, I was very young, but I remember them talking about this until I was in my forties, fifties. They would talk about the Vencedor on Chicago Avenue, not the one on Division, because that was actually -- the waitress that worked for my father, Maria and her husband Miguel, they [00:04:00] bought the restaurant and they took it to Humboldt Park, which is now called La Borinqueña. That was the spot where the Vencedor -- and that’s what I know from that part because Henrotin Hospital was -- I don’t know if you’d call it trauma center at the time, but had a lot of actions on weekends, a lot of stabbings and a lot of shootings, Henrotin. It was definitely a drama hospital. JJ: Okay. You were born there, but I mean, were you also from La Clark, that community, or what community were you at? MR: Well, I was there as a child, only my first four years of my life. Eventually, we went to Uptown. [00:05:00] My father moved us up to Uptown 1959. And what happened was that -- the Vencedor was actually building violators, came and actually closed it out. So, it was just a process of getting rid of us. We were just in their way. And opening a business in that time without any political representation, without the banks, financial -- the banks would never lend us 2 �money. So Puerto Ricans had hard times keeping businesses. You had the city quoting you to death, and you had the banks not lending you any money. So, you was always a target for urban renewal displacement, and you had to move constantly. That’s what -- I remembered my dad [00:06:00] telling me, “Every time, Mayor Daley says urban renewal, I got to pack up not only my suitcases to move my family, but I got to reinvest my business.” And that’s not only him, but all his brothers were in the businesses. I think every brother and a couple nephews owned businesses in every section that had a Puerto Rican community at one time. JJ: For example, what -- MR: An example was, my cousin Hector Torres owned the Barranquitas Food Mart on 63rd in Stony Island. One of the original -- also another Puerto Rican community that goes way back. My cousin Johnny Torres and the other Torres, Teddy Torres, they had Johnny Food Mart in Lakeview on Sheffield and Oakdale. My uncle, [00:07:00] Ramon Monchito had the Newberry Grocery Store through the whole ’60s. Uncle Mario, he had the biggest. He had the Campo Food Mart. He had first Spanish American on 733 North Clark on Chicago, La Clark. Then he had the Campo Food Mart on Halsted and Willow from the early ’60s to probably mid ’60s, ’67, ’68. Then he had another one, Mario’s, on Armitage and Sheffield during the ’60s and ’70s. He had another one on Fremont and Armitage, that was in mid ’70s. And my father, he settled in Uptown. He had stores from 1959 to 1971, and a restaurant. JJ: And how [00:08:00] did he run the businesses? I mean, what do you remember 3 �of, say the store at the Campo Foods or in Halsted and Willow? MR: Well, when I used to go visit my uncle in Halsted and Willow, he had one of the biggest. He had the biggest, and he had the most popular one because there was a very heavy community up there in Halsted and Armitage, Halsted and Willow, Sheffield. And I just remember going there and everybody that was Puerto Rican, non-Puerto Rican, they would shop at my uncle’s store, Marianos. And he had three of them in that area, just in that short area. Not all in the same time, but the one on Halsted and Armitage definitely had the longest. And I remember that the Young Lords’ parents [00:09:00] used to go shop in my uncle’s store. And to this day, I go to block parties throughout the city, especially with my father and my neighborhood, I have families, young people or people come up and say, “If it wasn’t for your father and your uncles --” because don’t forget, they had businesses in every part where there was the Puerto Rican community. A lot of us were in need. So Mario would give you credit. A lot of the Young Lords’ families were getting credit from my uncles and my father in Uptown, my cousins in Lakeview, Hector in 63rd in Stony Island, and Monchito Ramon in Newberry Grocery Store, where he stayed all the way through ’67. JJ: Okay. So you got credit. What else was going on? MR: Oh, you got credit, la bodega. [00:10:00] First of all, they were community leaders. They were highly respected from the community, because a lot of people depended on these grocery stores for credit. A lot of the single men would get their mails there. It was a source of information. Some of the stores were named after the towns they’re from. Like Lares Food Mart. My cousin, 4 �Barranquitas Food Mart -- matter of fact, my father’s family is Rivera, and they all come from Barranquitas, the home of the first Puerto Rican governor, Muñoz Rivera and his son, Muñoz Marín. JJ: Were they related at all, or? MR: Well, the whole town’s Rivera. JJ: The whole town’s Rivera? MR: So, you know, when you go to that cemetery, [00:11:00] all you see is Rivera Colon. And that was my father, Modesto Rivera Colon. So, whether they were related in one side of the mountain, maybe not on the other side, or they were all related. JJ: Okay. So you said you moved to Uptown. Where did you live in Uptown? And when did that happen? MR: In 1959, we lived in a hotel on Winthrop Avenue while my father first started his business on 1114 West Leland. Now, at that time, there was no banks that would finance us. So, he was able to get 8,000 dollars from Frank Chase Cardeno which was actually the milkman, one of the milk distributors on the North Side. And that’s how most of the Puerto Rican bodegas would come up. They were backed up by the milk companies. And he opened the store in 1959, [00:12:00] and he specialized in Caribbean and American food. And we had a kitchen. The kitchen was very important because we would -- you know, you ever go to a pizzeria and see the pizza ovens, they make pizzas, the commercial pizza? Well, we made roast pork out of these big commercial ovens. In Uptown, Puerto Rican community was not like Armitage. It had pockets. You might have 5 �one block Puerto Ricans on Leland and Winthrop, another block on Argyle, another block on Montrose and Hazel. Then they had Sheridan and Irving Park. But they would all go to my father’s store because it was the only store that was specialized in that, in Uptown. [00:13:00] And my father’s family, Lo Rivera, they had a big impact in the Puerto Rican community because each community was represented by one of their businesses, and they became not only business people, but they became leaders. They would sponsor -- you came from the island, you didn’t have an apartment, they would go talk to the landlord and say, “They just came in. I give you my word, they’re good tenants. They’ll be good tenants, and they’ll pay the rent.” And this is one of the things that they would do because they knew more Puerto Ricans in the community, of course, would be more business. And it was always a good relationship to be that way, to make it as -- to help the new guys come from the island. [00:14:00] JJ: Okay. And where did you go to school? And when you were in (inaudible)? MR: Well, I got to tell you something, though. Owning these stores did give us a little vantage than most of the neighborhoods. So, we all went to Catholic schools. Most of my cousins went to Catholic schools. I went to St. Thomas of Canterbury on Lawrence and Kenmore, just about a block away from the Aragon Ballroom. And went there for eight years. And to my other cousins, Raymond, they went to St. Alphonso’s, we had people go to St. Teresa’s, we had -- just can’t remember all of them. But most of the cousins would go to Catholic schools. JJ: Okay. I guess going back a little bit, [00:15:00] because you had mentioned to me about the displacement and the Carl Sandburg Village area, and that you 6 �lived also on Clark in Chicago and that. Do you recall that? I mean, what -MR: Well, I recall when I was four years old. Probably it was the last years that we had the Vencedor. We lived right behind North Avenue and LaSalle. There was a gas station right off Lake Shore Drive. And man, I just remember living there. Oh, we no longer had the Vencedor. My parents worked in a restaurant in Old Town. My mother was a cook, and my father was the cook and a waiter. I was only about four or five years old, but I remember that time. And going to Uptown, is where I actually believe my memory with that, because I think [00:16:00] that’s where we settled for the next 13 years. And Uptown was a strange one. It was mixed. It was a mix of Blacks. We had small Black community right across the street of the store that’s been Black for about 100 years, I mean, since the turn of the century. But that was the only block they had. This was before the Civil Rights Movement. We had Puerto Ricans that came, and we had Appalachian whites where I actually grew up with a lot of the children from coal miners that were displaced during the Depression and after the war, when the coal mines closed down. And we had an American Indian population. We had the largest American Indian population outside the reservation due to another government program [00:17:00] trying to -- during the ’50s and ’60s, the government would place Indians from the reservation to urban life to see if they could live the urban life outside the reservation. So we had a 12-square block area, 8 to 12-square block area of Blacks, Appalachian white, Puerto Ricans, and American Indians. And it was a very poor, poor neighborhood. And to me, I think every one of them had their -- it seems like everybody was sponsored by -- I know the Puerto Rican 7 �through to the Operation Bootstrap that was going on in the island. The Indians, through the displacement of the -- bringing them from the reservation to urban life, the Appalachian whites, being displaced economically through either the closing [00:18:00] of the coal mines, and the Blacks that were always migrating from the South. So those four groups, really was the majority of the Uptown that I knew. JJ: And so they kind of came here, like they migrated here. But you mentioned the word displacement. How does that fit into -- MR: I think they were sponsored by -- either the coal miners were displaced when the companies closed. They had to come to places like Uptown looking for jobs. The American Indians were displaced, brought from the reservation to see, it was a program, if they could live in urban life. That didn’t work out too good. Puerto Ricans, what brought Puerto Rico was the Commonwealth status, the Operation Bootstrap to bring Puerto Rico from agriculture [00:19:00] to industrial. That displaced a lot of Puerto Ricans, to come to the -- but we always felt when you wind out in Uptown, it was displacement. But in Uptown, you definitely were in the bottom of the barrel. It felt that way from each of these different groups. We didn’t? have much choices. JJ: Okay. Now you’re talking about you left La Clark around four years old and went to Old Town. Did you ever live in Lincoln Park at all, or? MR: No, I did not. My family, my uncle Mario, lived in Lincoln Park. He based his whole businesses out of Lincoln Park. The Campo and then the two stores, one on Fremont and Armitage, then one on Sheffield and Armitage. 8 �JJ: And that was more a larger community than say -- MR: That was the larger Puerto Rican community. That was a lot, that got to [00:20:00] be 60 percent. JJ: Okay, 60 percent. MR: Well, in Uptown there were only like blocks, one block in each little pockets. JJ: And what was it like, I mean, for you living in Uptown then? MR: In Uptown? Well, being you have your grocery store, you did look at life through a fishbowl. You would look at everybody -- it’s not like I was a little kid, and I could hide or they kept me in the home. They kept me out in the community where -- I worked in this grocery store. All of our cousins worked in our grocery. We all grew up in the business. And I just got to meet so many people from all parts of Uptown. But it was true in the ’60s, and it was a melting pot [00:21:00] that I could not -- the experience was just -- I talked to some friends of mine that I’ve known for over 45 years, and you can’t buy the kind of experience that we had in Uptown, being diversified, but poor in that way. And then you had your gangs. But you had all this conflict between the Blacks and the Appalachian whites and the Indians and the Puerto Ricans. It was just a constant -- it was fighting, a lot of fighting going on. But it was poor. But people watched out for each other, in the sense of you were part of that community. You know how my father described it? He lived in New York 25 years before he came to Chicago. He described it like Hell’s Kitchen. New York Hell’s Kitchen. It was mixed, [00:22:00] and it was what it was. But I enjoyed living in Uptown. JJ: Okay. You get involved in a little activism when you were in Uptown, doing 9 �community work. What were you thinking and how did you get involved? MR: I did almost 20 years of activism in Uptown. How I got involved, what brought my consciousness to a political level, was my father had this grocery store. We also had a restaurant. We had two kitchens we operated. But my father had the grocery store, [00:23:00] and this grocery store (inaudible) big wall, which was actually the book section. And then them days, Puerto Rican women would love their novellas, came in little, little paperbacks. The soap operas came in paperbacks in Spanish, with pictures. So they were a popular book. But my father had these two newspapers. We had three, but one came in later. But the two that we had was the Black Panther newspaper and the Young Lords’ newspaper, Palante. JJ: And this was what store? MR: On Leland Avenue in Uptown. JJ: In Uptown. Okay. MR: And reading, when business would be slow, when I have to go in the back, I would take these -- these were my favorite newspapers. Not the Daily News, not the Chicago Suns, it was just Black Panthers’ and Young Lords’, because I was becoming [00:24:00] to be a teenager and we were reading books like the outside -- was it the out-- we’d see movies like Switchblade, West Side Story, because we already knew those gangs, and those gangs’ activity out in Uptown, very high. But these magazines would do something to me when I was in the back of the store, either doing what I have to do, stocking and stuff. I’d take time to read these magazines. I would read them every day. I would read over these 10 �magazines. And that would kind of give me a little idea what was happening with the activism throughout the city. My little world was from school to home and to the store. These two newspapers would take me to a different part of the city. I was still 14, 15 years old, hanging out [00:25:00] in the corner. JJ: What do you mean in different part of the city? You mean like Lincoln Park? MR: Well, take me to Lincoln Park where I always heard about, where I would go visit my uncle and see the Young Lords, but not go out and communicate with them. I would know about the Young Lords through the newspaper. What happened was, we had a group of guys on Leland and Broadway, about 15 of us, 12 to 15 of us. And we were mixed, from Puerto Ricans to Appalachian whites. Most of us were Puerto Ricans. We had one Japanese. And there was gang recruitment going on, gang wars and stuff like that. But somewhere down the line, these newspapers, the Young Lords’ newspaper was like -- the gangs that was happening, the Latin Kings were coming in and they were recruiting. So, we had the Leland Boys. [00:26:00] We weren’t part of the Leland Boys, but they were another group of Puerto Rican kids and Appalachian kids further west of us, a block west. They would hang out. Our gang of boys, a couple, three blocks north of us, they all became Latin Kings. We were the only group that stayed out of any gangs. We just did not-- We had members, individual members who joined gang. But somewhere down the line, we’ve made a choice, because I used to bring the Young Lords newspaper to them. And I had them read what I would read at my father’s store. And we know we didn’t want to join the Latin Kings. So what happened was my political consciousness came from these two 11 �newspapers, [00:27:00] the Black Panther and the Young Lords newspaper, Palante. But what it also did, it kept me from joining a gang, because at that time, when I was already reading about the Young Lords, they already made their transitional from a street gang to a political group. And this is the group that sounded right to me. So, we wanted to join, but we were just a little too young, 14, 15, 16 years old. And we just felt hanging out and staying neutral was our way. And then I went to the Army in 1972, came back in ’75 was when I first started -JJ: Where did you go? You went to the Army? Where -- MR: I was stationed in Germany for two and a half years. But the [00:28:00] impact -the political consciousness was there from what I was getting from these newspapers. And then what the Army did was put an organizational chart in my mind, the chain of command, code of discipline. Code of conduct. So, by the time I got back out, I was kind of ready to organize, but it took me a couple more years to get to the next step. JJ: How did you feel that the Young Lords were, like against the war in Vietnam at that time? MR: Well, I was against the war at first. I was against the war. And we were all greasers. And what happened was you had the Young Lords, the Black Panther, everybody was against the war. [00:29:00] And then you had that Kent State massacre. And what happened was I hanged up my leather jacket and bought me a field jacket at the Army surplus on Broadway next to -- and then came a little bit more consciousness about that. But in 1972, you joined the Army 12 �because it was part of my family’s tradition. All my uncles on my father’s side. My father was a merchant marine, he was from World War II. All my cousins were in Korea, Vietnam. I joined the Army plus economics. And I was on both sides. I was against the war, but I was also a soldier for reasons, tradition. JJ: So, what are some of the things that you did when you got involved? You said you were doing activism. MR: Well, the first campaign I actually worked in was Cha-Cha’s campaign. And that one, I came in a little too late, [00:30:00] but I did get a good week in it. The last week of the campaign, I went out working with Slim Coleman up on Leland Avenue, up in the Leland Hotel, which was my old hangout back in the ’60s. So, it was obvious that I still knew a lot of people. And we were just canvased a few buildings. The Leland Hotel, we canvased Broadway, Leland, Winthrop in Leland, where I grew up when my father had the store. But we no longer had the store. We moved to Puerto Rico in ’71. But I had a week, I canvased with ChaCha and got out to vote on election day, basically, and plug. I wish I would’ve done more, but at that time, I just got out of the Army in November of ’74. The campaign was happening a couple months right after. JJ: And what did you feel about that campaign? I mean, what -- MR: It was great. I think it was great to have a Puerto Rican, especially Cha-Cha, the leader of the Young Lords, the founder, that took this [00:31:00] street gang and made it into this militant activist organization. And then he wants to run at alderman in one of the poorest neighborhoods that I know of, and most diverse. I think that was the hardest part. And the results were 38 percent, was actually 13 �good for one of the first races for a Puerto Rican. I think there was one more on the West Side, I can’t remember. But I think it was Figueroa. I can’t remember. But to get 38 percent in 1975 as a Puerto Rican candidate, that was a victory by itself. I don’t think any other ethnic group in Uptown would’ve done it if you weren’t white or white with money. Had that money. JJ: Okay. So, you worked on the Jimenez campaign [00:32:00] and there was a good campaign for the community. I mean -- MR: A very great. To me, it was a victory, even though we only got 38 percent of the vote. Out of 10,000, 3,800. That was great. That was great. First time around. JJ: Okay. And then, what happened after that with you? MR: Well, I went to college for a couple years, and -- JJ: Where’d you go to college? MR: I went to Truman, Northeastern, couple semesters. But we had some personal family problems, personal problems that I dealt with after the campaign, which is dealing with myself. And I didn’t start getting active again till 1980. JJ: And what happened in 1980? Did you -- MR: Well, in 1980, they were kind of -- Bernard Carey [00:33:00] was our state attorney. He was the state attorney, the Republican state attorney, and Richard Daley wanted to be state attorney. And we just decided that -- another Daley name after what we went through the ’60s and ’70s, and another 20 -- we supported Bernard Carey. And one of the reasons was that Daley wanted to be state attorney, which would’ve been another step to the City Hall. JJ: Wait, why did you support a Republican then? 14 �MR: We did not wanted another Daley name in power. That’s what it was. And this brought out people that were activists from the ’60s that didn’t see each other for a while. And people from Cha-Cha’s campaign, they kind of dropped out of sight and then all of a sudden you got Daley running, [00:34:00] and he kind of woke up the dead again. And said, “No, not another Daley.” So, we went for Republican candidate, just like the Black community elected Bernard Carey in 1972. Why did they do that? Well, they knew that Hanrahan signed the warrants to kill Black Panthers, Fred Hampton and Mark Clark. So the Black community got together in ’72 and put Bernard Carey in Power. So, in 1980, we still backed up Bernard Carey, knowing that Daley was coming. We didn’t want that Daley name under there. So it kind of woke up some of the cobwebs out of us, that Daley was coming back. [00:35:00] That Daley name was coming back. And that started a whole new movement, you know? A whole new movement from what was kind of limbo in the disco era, I believe. (laughs) I got lost with the disco. And I think the 1980, the Reaganomics and knowing that Daley’s coming back, kind of woke me up. JJ: So, this was 1980. And then what happened after that? MR: It was just one campaign after another. I became a VISTA volunteer for two years, 1981. In 1981, I was a VISTA volunteer. I would go to Milwaukee, worked on a campaign in Milwaukee, worked on a campaign in Cairo, Illinois. And I worked in Uptown as a VISTA volunteer. JJ: [00:36:00] Now, in 1983, Harold Washington was running as the first African American mayor for the city, for mayor. Did you do anything during that time? 15 �MR: Well, in 1982 there was a coalition formed with Uptown, South Side with Jesse Jackson, West Side with Cha-Cha Jimenez. And we started spearheading voter registration drive. But the good thing -- the part was that we were meeting back in ’82 already. Go to 18th Street, go to 26th Street, go to Humboldt Park, Wicker Park, and we would take classes at the Operation Rainbow on Saturday mornings about voter registration, [00:37:00] because it was the first time that the voter registration outreach came out, where you actually volunteered to do voter registration, making deputies. At that time, you had to do it at the junctions or the polling places. Now, they did the outreach program. That was the first year. So, they were teaching a lot. And we took that advantage and went with it and made -- I don’t even know the numbers, but it was voter registration. Everybody I knew became a voter registrar. And then in ’83, I hooked up with Cha-Cha in the Logan Square, West Town, Humboldt Park area. We had an office on Fullerton and Western, right? I think about a block and a half from Mell’s ward [00:38:00] office. JJ: Richard -- MR: Richard Mell, 33rd ward. And he was actually spearheading the opposition. He was with Byrne, I believe. JJ: Stone, I think. Bernard Stone. MR: No. Don’t forget we had a primary. We had Daley, Byrne, and Washington. JJ: That’s correct. MR: So, I think Mell went with -- JJ: Daley, I think. 16 �MR: -- Daley. JJ: Yeah. No clue. I’m not sure. But anyway, so you were working out of the Fullerton office? MR: Mm-hmm. With Cha-Cha, some union people. And Cha-Cha had this great idea that I remember we couldn’t use the Young Lords’ name. [00:39:00] But he was working on a project already with this guy, Frank Espada from Washington D.C., the Puerto Rican Diaspora Documentary project. And they gave us permission to kind of use their name. And we had the Puerto Rican Diaspora Coalition. And I actually think there was only two Puerto Rican groups actually or two Hispanic groups, two Puerto Rican groups that literally came out in public to support Harold Washington. We were one of them. Can’t remember who was the other one? Maybe Reverend Morales? Everybody else, like on the -- either backing off or they were between Daley and Byrne. We were the only two Puerto Rican groups that I remember that actually came out publicly, on the literature. [00:40:00] And that was, to me -- JJ: And so, when was the first actions? Was the Northwest? What was one of the first actions? MR: Well, first action was we had the big rally at the Northwest Hall. And Jesus, I remember Cha-Cha, he was telling me, he kept telling me there’d be over 500 people coming to this. I said, “Cha-Cha, you for real? Come on.” We worked down there for almost a month. And I swear to God, when it was that night, there was over 700 people come to that rally. And I remember when Harold Washington came -- because we would discuss the theme song of the Night. 17 �And when Harold Washington walked in, the “Eye of the Tiger” was the theme song for Harold Washington. When he came up the stage, [00:41:00] Cha-Cha gave him a pava, a Puerto Rican jibaro hat. And he wore it saying “Viva Puerto Rico!” That was pretty neat. But I didn’t think we would get the 700, and we got it. And also, we were still doing the campaign in these five wards. I had 15 precincts in the 33rd that I was concentrating on. There was a couple other people. But I remember Cha-Cha was telling us that we would need to -- we had the union people, hell, a lot of union people out there. But we were troubleshooters. I remember now that there’d be a building where some people weren’t comfortable going in. Couple of them across the street at Humboldt Park, one on the Boulevard. And they would send us, Cha-Cha, me and the group. [00:43:00] And we talked to these guys. And what it was, by the end of the day, we had every one-percenter, what we call one-percenter anti-socialbehavior registered and ready to vote for Harold Washington. Otherwise, there was a lot of high crime buildings or maybe narcotics going on. And these people were just terrified. And I remember Cha-Cha, he’d go in these buildings, and he told me, “Modesto, this is --” And that’s what was our job. One of our jobs was troubleshooting trouble buildings. And the trouble buildings was that the people weren’t comfortable with these people. And we came in. I remember a walk, it was the strangest thing. Berrios, Congressman Berrios came to work on the Harold Washington campaign, because Harold Washington was a congressman [00:43:00] and we did a walk -JJ: Herman Badillo. 18 �MR: Herman Badillo. What did I say? JJ: You said Berrios, but -- MR: Okay, Herman, the Congressman from New York, he came and worked on the campaign. He did a walk on Milwaukee Avenue, and we were on Milwaukee and Damen and North Avenue, and Cha-Cha and I were advancing. We had to do advance to kind of pick out good businesses, where we could [initiate?]. And one of the businesses was the Double Door Saloon -- Bar. And we told the congressman, this you should go in. And some of the people that were with the congressman from Chicago, they were advising him, “No, no. You don’t want go there. It’s a trouble bar.” And the congressman told [00:44:00] them, “I’m from the Bronx.” And he walked in the Double Door Saloon, man. Machinecontrolled, hardcore saloon. And this Puerto Rican congressman from New York shook every hand on behalf of this Black congressman. It was great. It was Polish, Ukrainian, Puerto Ricans. And then I knew, for some reason, we knew that they were outreaching. This was really done by really, really -- you know, it was great because Cha-Cha would go up ahead and say, “These are the people you need to talk to, the disenfranchised. Not the established Puerto Ricans here. The ones that no one’s talking to.” And there was another incident where we felt, [00:45:00] that I felt I was in the right movement here where Celia Cruz came to the Aragon, and it was one of -- I think the promoter was [Donny?] Ramos. And we went in as security for Harold Washington. And this one was a definitely allout working-class Puerto Rican community. And the feel -- we did not know how they would set Harold Washington. Because don’t forget, there was only two 19 �groups that supported Harold Washington. And the rest was between Daley and Byrne. But when Celia Cruz, the Queen of Salsa, introduced the next Mayor, mi negrito of the City of Chicago, Harold Washington, [00:46:00] and that 3,000 people just responded. 3,000, mostly Boricua, which I believe was the full house, maybe 5,000, the Aragon. And the response to that, then I knew for some reason, between the Northwest Hall, 700, the Walk on Milwaukee Avenue, going to that Double Door Saloon, that reaction was the -- Polish, Ukrainian, and Puerto Ricans that were in there. And the response of the Aragon Ballroom, when Celia Cruz introduced Harold Washington, I knew then we were winner. For some reason, I knew the Puerto Rican community was going to come out for Harold. And that was a good campaign. That campaign started -- it made [00:47:00] veterans out of us. You never were politically active, you worked that campaign, you were a veteran. You didn’t have to work another one. That was a good campaign. JJ: So, okay. Modesto, if you can tell me, what do you think is the legacy of the Young Lords? MR: The Young Lords in my life, the legacy is -- be perfectly honest with you, when I was in the store, in la bodega de mi papa, and reading the Young Lords’ paper and lifting my mind and thinking about that, and I had a choice. Do I want to be a Young Lord or do I want to be a gangbanger, that was disruptive behavior? What I thought the Young Lords did to me and to my little gang on Leland and Broadway, was to keep us neutral [00:48:00] and keep us away from the criminal gang activity. And it put us into a positive, progressive political future, which 20 �actually most of my friends, wind up working for the cities, because we followed that route. But the ones that followed the other gangs, most of them are dead and went to prison. And to this, the legacy to me is that they made political lead activists out of us, out the ones that were just right behind them. And they were made more political activists of future kids, because the Young Lords’ story will be told throughout the curriculum from now on, because I think it’s just -- the way the economy is and the way world is now, no one’s watching out for the other person. [00:49:00] And I think these issues that the Young Lords -- the struggle has been going on for the last 40 years. We’ve been there, but we’re going to bring this next generation into the web of things, because things are getting worse. And we need another young wave of activism. And I think more young people that read and hear about the Young Lords, then these ideas will pop. Because I’d be perfectly honest with you, I believe the Young Lords -- reading these little papers in my father’s store, saved my life. JJ: Okay. How do you -- saved your life in terms of the crime, or? MR: That I never -- besides my parents, of course, guidance, the Young Lords put a political consciousness in me to do [00:50:00] positive things in the sense of political. My faith in God, I keep. My parents taught me to do well. But the Young Lords lift my political consciousness where I did not get into the trap of other young kids joining gangs and negative gangs. Let’s say if I joined a gang, it was definitely a positive gang like the Young Lords. I always felt like a Young Lord in my heart, because I believe -- what they were doing, I believe in them. So to me, in my heart, I’m a Young Lord, just in the actions that I did. I did not go 21 �gangbanging, but I went and became an activist. That’s it. JJ: Okay. Now, after or later on, you did work within the city. MR: Oh, yes. JJ: So, how did that come about? MR: Well, I worked 23 years with the city. I’m semi-retired. [00:51:00] I’ve been working campaigns ever since. My last good campaign was in 2009 where I worked for Mike Quigley for congressman. I stayed three months in that campaign. And I stayed a month working for Obama in 2008. He’d take me to Iowa, these little bus tours. But we do phone bank and things like that. But the campaigns nowadays are not like the ones that we used to do. It’s more of a human touch. JJ: So, if you actually worked for the Obama campaign, you can kind of extend it all the way to -- MR: Yeah. Well, I’m still active. I’m still active. For some reason, what was taught to us in the ’60s towards the movement and the Young Lords and the Black Panthers, it seems it build a seed, and [00:52:00] something I believe that young people are missing. And I think it’s going to come back. I think it’s going to come back. And I hope. JJ: Any final words that you want to say at this point or that you think maybe we missed or that are important? MR: Well, sometimes when you interview, you get thinking about other things. I wish that the Young Lords would -- because, you know, people come and you have to continue struggling for other people, not just for yourself, [00:53:00] but for the 22 �other people and for the next generation. And when you talk about the Young Lords, people will say, “Oh, I remember the Young Lords. Oh, they’re still around? Oh, the Young Lords.” But all the benefits -- no, not the benefits, but all the social programs and all the things that Latinos are taking for granted in other groups, it was groups like the Young Lords and the Black Panthers and the Young Patriots that started. And of course, they’re still around through the programs, through the things -- through your rights, through Latino rights, you know? That’s how they’re round. And I wish people would not think that the Young Lords died out. The spirit is still there. They’re like legends. And every time Cha-Cha comes to town, I say, “Man, I’m riding with the legend.” (laughs) That’s it. END OF VIDEO FILE 23 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4a83561c6bcd6375ffda20fb860d0a20.mp4 ee4a05ca39216f98be526a306e5a3176 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Modesto Rivera vídeo entrevista y biografía Descripción Spanish language Description entry Modesto Rivera es un Young Lord que creció en el vecindario de La Clark en Lincoln Park con los Hillbillies de Chicagos Uptown. Su Padre y tío, Mario Rivera, fueron unos de los primeros Puertorriqueños que era dueño de su propio negocio. Su mercado estaba en 733 North Clark Street y tenia anuncios en la estación mexicana del radio. Durante este entrevista Señor Rivera hable sobre su tío quien fue conocido porque daba crédito en el base de confianza de la familias Puertorriqueñas, quien a cambio lo trataban como alcalde. No le gustaba al Alcalde Daley a su tío porque “cada vez que él se mudaba el vecindario tenia que moverse y él también se tenía que mover.” Señor Rivera es un dedicado organizador para la comunidad y camina de puerta a puerta como trabajador de recinto. El trabajo en muchas campañas políticas, incluyendo la de Jiménez para Alderman (1973-1975), la de Helen Schiller Alderman, y la campaña para Harold Washington. Durante la campaña de Washington, Señor Rivera trabajo con David Mojica y Jose “Cha-Cha” Jimenez y tomo parte en organizar la primer concentración de Latinos por los Young Lords, en apoyo de elegir el primer alcalde Afro-Americano en Chicago. Señor Rivera también trabajo por la Cuidad de Chicago y continua trabajando como activista en su comunidad. Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puertorriqueños--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Chicago (Ill.)--Política y gobierno--1951- Puertorriqueños--Illinois--Chicago--Vida social y costumbres Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Rivera_Modesto Title A name given to the resource Modesto Rivera video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rivera, Modesto Description An account of the resource Modesto Rivera is a Young Lord raised in the La Clark neighborhood, Lincoln Park, and with the Hillbillies of Chicago’s uptown. Mr. Rivera was a strong community organizer and door-to-door precinct worker. He has worked in many political campaigns, including the Jiménez for Alderman Campaign (1973-1975), Helen Schiller’s Aldermanic Campaign, and the Harold Washington Campaign. During the Washington Campaign, Mr. Rivera worked alongside David Mojica and José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and participated in organizing the first Latino rally held by the Young Lords, in support of electing the first African American mayor in Chicago’s history. Mr. Rivera also worked for the City of Chicago and continues to be active in his community. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puerto Ricans--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Chicago (Ill.)--Politics and government--1951- Puerto Ricans--Illinois--Chicago--Social life and customs Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-02-07 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7539201754518feac03e3764db193467.pdf 516a6a11a0bfcd218d7b1e9b8310e41d PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Angel “Sal” del Rivero Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 7/11/2012 Biography and Description Angel “Sal” Del Rivero was born in Mexico. In the late 1950s and early 1960s he lived in Lincoln Park on Dayton Street. Later his family moved to the Lakeview Neighborhood near Wrigley Field, but he never left Lincoln Park as he traveled to it daily. Mr. Rivero became one of the original members of the Young Lords in 1959. The other original members of the Young Lords were all Puerto Rican, including Santos Guzman who moved to Lincoln Park from Philadelphia, Benny Pérez who lived on Halsted, Fermin Pérez (no relation to Benny), and David “Chicken Killer” Rivera whose regular job later was at a meat market. Mr. Rivero’s father was the neighborhood barber who cut hair from their home on Fremont and Bissell Streets, which then crossed each other where they both ended. Mr. Rivero’s brothers improvised a roller coaster ride made from wooden fruit crates that slid down the railing of their back porch stairway, racing down into the backyard until the crates finally hit ground on the cement pavement would glide it on their own. It was exhilarating until the ride ended at the fence. All the neighborhood kids enjoyed it and the Rivero kids made a mint from the nickles they charged for the rides.The first president of the Young Lords was Joe Vicente, who had Italian features. Mr. Jiménez became the last president of several because he was always in and out of jail. Mr. Vicente also lived in the Italian section of Lincoln Park, by De Paul University, on Sheffield and Belden. His cousin, Johnny Trinidad had moved from New York, to Indiana Harbor’s Steel Mill area, and then moved onto 95th and Halsted Streets. Mr. Trinidad always �was free with his opinions, especially before, after, and when he briefly popped into meetings to watch, but he rarely attended any full meeting, saying that he could not because he lived out of the neighborhood. Mr. Rivero recalls these early days, noting that the fact that ethnic youth groups lived in segregated blocks in these early days also played a big difference in their organizing. In 1959, Puerto Ricans were still scattered throughout Lincoln Park and so the Young Lords did not begin from a concentrated hangout but were spread out, trying to carve out their own place within Lincoln Park. For many this meant being targeted by white ethnic youth because they had darker skin, were Puerto Rican, or spoke Spanish. Mr. Rivero recalls the numerous stands the Young Lords made in their early days. As more Latinos and African Americans moved into Lincoln Park, Humbolt Park, Wicker Park, and parts of Lakeview through the 1950s and 1960s, youth began to unite more around national origins. Mr. Rivero describes an encounter where the Young Lords, Latin Eagles, and a whole range of northside Puerto Ricans gangs became involved. The Aristocrats were an established white gang that was led by their only Puerto Rican member, Dulio. They had argued with a Puerto Rican family and had entered into a primarily Puerto Rican housing project called California Terrace, located by Halsted and Barry near Clark Streets and threw bricks through all the windows. A war involving about 400 people began and the white Town Hall policemen hid from view. It lasted an entire week. On one of the days, the Puerto Ricans walked down Barry Street and broke out all the car windows, from Halsted to Sheffield looking for and challenging the Aristocrats in their own territory. On another occasion, a stuffed figure of a person hung by the neck from electrical wires high up in the middle of the street, resembling a lynching. The war ended when both groups met on their own and agreed to stop fighting, to avoid being arrested by the police. Mr. Rivero recalls being one of the war counselors with Mr. Jiménez and helping to resolve the conflict. While the Young Lords were transforming themselves into a human rights movement, Mr. Rivero was serving in the U.S. military. When he came out most Young Lords were opposed to the Vietnam War, although many Young Lords also served on the front lines in that war. Mr. Rivero at first resented those who opposed the war. But after Young Lord Manuel Ramos was killed by an off duty policeman, the entire Young Lords group reunited themselves for human rights. �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: -- you were born? ANGEL DEL RIVERO: JJ: My name is Angel. (inaudible) [professional]. ADR: Angel del Rivero. JJ: Angel del Rivero. Okay. ADR: I was born on June 9, 1948. JJ: Like everybody else, right? Everybody’s from 1948. Okay. If you can (inaudible) sound, give me your name, your date of birth, and where you were born. ADR: Okay. I was born on June the ninth, 1948. I was born in Mexico City, but I was brought to the United States as a baby, basically as a young child. JJ: Any certain part of Mexico City or is that any barrio? ADR: What part of Mexico City? The capital. JJ: Was there a neighborhood or something or --? ADR: I believe it was a place called, the translation would be the three-star [00:01:00] suburb. JJ: The three-star suburb. Okay. ADR: Which was near the famous, that place where the Indian with the Mexican Revolution that got--Hidalgo. This is where the Indian, supposedly the appearance of the Virgin Mary that came up on his cape. That wasn’t really, I don’t know, it wasn’t really that far from that particular community, which is not 1 �like a main boulevard. It goes down to that particular church. The only significance about that was that it was near where I was born. JJ: Okay. Now is your -- what was your father’s name and mother’s name? ADR: What was what now? JJ: Your father and mother’s name? What are their names? ADR: What are they? My father was [00:02:00] by trade, he had become a cabinet maker and he was working. My understanding is that he was one of the, at that time, a foreman working for Zenith Corporation and the people from the Zenith supposedly liked his work that he did and asked him to come to the United States. So he came by himself first, then sent for the rest of the family. JJ: So what year did he come? ADR: Excuse me? JJ: What year did he come? ADR: Geez, that would’ve been 1949 to 1950. JJ: About 1950. Now his name is Angel also? Is his name the same as yours? ADR: No, [00:03:00] his name is Carlos, was Carlos. He passed away. JJ: Okay. And your mom? ADR: Susanna. JJ: Anna? ADR: Excuse me? JJ: Susanna. ADR: Susanna. JJ: Susanna. Okay. And what about siblings? How many brothers and sisters? 2 �ADR: Well, I have-- my father, prior to being married to my mother, had been previously married-- must have gotten a divorce or I don’t know what occurred. I have a stepsister from that marriage. And then when he married my mother, two children were born of her: myself, and my sister. My mother had also been married. Her husband was killed. He was a doctor, [00:04:00] from what I understand, and there was also a daughter that was born to her. So, I have two stepsisters older than myself. One from my mother’s side and one from my father’s side. JJ: Do you know their names? ADR: Huh? JJ: Do you know their names or? ADR: Yeah, from my father’s side, Yolanda, still alive, lives in Mexico, and from my mother’s side, Aida, which she lives here in the United States, presently lives in the Belvidere, Illinois area. And my sister married. JJ: You grew up with her? ADR: Yeah. JJ: Okay. ADR: From my mother’s side, my sister stayed, was part of our family, my stepsister was, part of the family. We grew up together. Yolanda stayed with her mother, so she came to be part, when she was older, [00:05:00] she came to the United States to be with us as part of the family, but she really didn’t like living here, so she went back to Mexico. So that was many, many years ago. She has family. JJ: Did you mention Rosa or --? 3 �ADR: Huh? JJ: Did you mention Rosa? Is there a Rosa or did you have another sister or no? ADR: I said I have three sisters. JJ: Okay. Did you mention, I believe-- ADR: One from my father, one from my mother, and well, for my mother, two girls, because my younger sister, Mary. JJ: Was one of them called Rosa? ADR: Rosa? JJ: Yeah. ADR: (shakes head no) JJ: You don’t have a sister. Okay. ADR: I don’t know. JJ: There’s no Rosa. ADR: Okay. The three of them are Yolanda from my father’s side. Aida from my mother’s side, and again, from my mother, Mary, and myself. JJ: Okay. Thank you. All right. [00:06:00] Okay. So now you came at, what year did you come? ADR: That would’ve been, oh God, I’m not sure. Either it was 1957, I think. JJ: Mid-fifties? ADR: Yeah. I mean, it would’ve been around, but I’m not quite. JJ: Now, when you came, what was the first place that you lived at? ADR: Okay, the first place I lived at was at the Lincoln Park, what is now known as the Lincoln Park area, on Fullerton Avenue close to Clark. 4 �JJ: Oh, Fullerton by Clark. You lived there? ADR: Geneva Terrace is the street. Not Fullerton. Geneva Terrace. JJ: Oh, Geneva Terrace. I’m familiar with that. ADR: Right next to, right off of Fullerton Avenue. JJ: And your parents were living there? [00:07:00] ADR: Yes. JJ: At that time? ADR: Then we moved for some time. We moved over to an area again, I like want to say Arlington Street near Pulaski. We weren’t there too long and my father had moved over there. And then we moved into, I don’t know how long that lasted. I don’t think that lasted too long. And then we moved into the Halsted area, Halsted-Armitage area on Fremont. JJ: On Fremont. ADR: And that’s basically where the area that I ended up going was when we lived on Fremont as a young kid. JJ: Okay. Now, when you lived on Fremont, is that when you went to Mulligan or --? ADR: The what now? JJ: You were going to Mulligan School at that time? ADR: Right, that would have been grammar that I was attending at that point. I mean attending [00:08:00] Mulligan. JJ: Okay. So, was this south of Armitage or north of Armitage? ADR: South of Armitage on Fremont. JJ: On Fremont. Okay. 5 �ADR: It was 19-- I still remember the address going back. It was 1928. The address, the house is still standing. It’s a red, Victorian type house. JJ: Okay, 1928 Fremont. ADR: Right. It’s still standing there. JJ: Okay. And so that’s when you first came from Mexico, you moved there. ADR: Right when we were attending Mulligan. JJ: Now how old were you then? ADR: Must have been around eight, nine years old, or I would’ve to be, no, 10 years old. JJ: About 10 years old. ADR: Yeah. JJ: So, what do you remember of that neighborhood then? ADR: Well, the area was mostly, predominantly it was a white area with few [00:09:00] Hispanics of mix. I mean, the majority I would’ve said at that time, larger group would’ve been Puerto Ricans in that neighborhood, was a little bit larger group than the Mexicans. We really, not that many Mexicans around that area. Predominantly was white, Irish and Italian. Some Italians around the neighborhood. JJ: And this was around 1957, 1956. ADR: Right. That was a time that almost every corner you had just about every corner, there was always some kind of a candy shop or candy store. Specific to the area that I recall from that era would’ve been that the neighborhood community, you 6 �had the Boys Clubs that you tended to have [00:10:00] a storefront place and almost-JJ: You had a Boys Club? ADR: -- just about every corner. JJ: Around Fremont? Oh, you had a little-- ADR: Well, some were in Fremont. They were located within the neighborhood. I remember there was a Boys Club on Fremont, south of where we lived. I mean, it would’ve been about a block south of Armitage. JJ: This was a Boys Club or a --? ADR: Boy’s Club. JJ: I mean like the type that we have now, or you mean a club of kids? This was a Boys Club, a regular athletic organization? ADR: In part, it was an athletic type thing, but also for socializing. This was the time and period where there was a lot of, that came from the area of, I want to say [00:11:00] part of a movement, and it’s not the right word to in describing the type, but not so much like a movement as it’s just traditionally known. But more of, there was a lot of people in terms of creating careers that were becoming social workers. So, it was kind of creating a social services. You had the YMCA, you had the Boys Club, you had that type of thing with the idea of helping out -not helping (inaudible)-- to interact with the youths of the area. I know, and I’ve been going (inaudible) what I’ve come to learn is the idea of the existence that (inaudible)existed in Chicago, but it was sugarcoated that gangs existed during that time. So, the social programs that existed with the idea to overcome 7 �[00:12:00] the bad results from what they would’ve considered gang activity. And so that by having baseball games, basketball, a place where kids could go was supposedly to overcome creating a hardcore gang members. JJ: So, you’re saying there was a large gang population in the area? Is that what you-- ADR: Well, there always has, I mean, they always existed. They didn’t call them -instead of recognize them as what they were, that they were gangs, they would refer to as clubs. JJ: So, this is what you mean that there were Boys Clubs everywhere? ADR: Huh? JJ: This is what you mean that there were Boys Clubs because they had clubhouses, or --? ADR: Let me explain this way. The biggest, getting down to it, I mean, in growing older [00:13:00] learning things, your biggest supporter of gang activity, not because they wanted to, they thought they were doing something good -- not a good example -- I mean, what was occurring during that time was the YMCA. YMCA allowed the gangs to call themselves clubs, either provided to the extent that each so-called club would’ve had a social worker working with them, sort of like a counselor. And in reality, the counselor was there to keep an eye on the activities of that particular group, and allowing this outlet, and instead of being called a gang, again, repeating that they were called clubs, and it in fact never did away with any of the gang activity that existed during those times because of the way they implemented the programs. Part of the problem [00:14:00] that 8 �existed from doing the implementation of those particular programs was that they’re thinking that they could suppress the fights. (telephone interruption) I was saying the problem with their mentality was that by having these tournaments between the clubs. JJ: You’re talking about the YMCA? ADR: Exactly. I’m referring to coming back to the YMCA. Actually was a bad thing because instead of calming down the rivalry between the clubs or the gangs, it intensified the hatred between the groups. Because if you had a basketball tournament, for example, it would be like Young Lords against the Playboys. Well, you’re having a game, you’re going to lose. I mean, somebody’s got to lose, whether it was the Playboys [00:15:00] or it was the Young. So obviously if the Young lost, we’re pissed off at the Playboys because we lost to the Playboys. I mean, and in the pretense to geting into a fight it created that animosity and got even bigger. So instead of bringing them together, it wasn’t bringing groups together. It was just making the animosity grow much stronger between the different gangs that existed at the time. JJ: So, the YMCA was-- ADR: It was feeding into the fighting. So, the fighting never really, the gang fights never really stopped in any way because of the way they did it. I mean. JJ: So, what you’re saying is before that there were gang fights? ADR: Right, well, regardless what I’m saying is YMCA and its mentality and its wisdom of the way they were looking at things, the way they see them. This is an era that they were looking at the social programs, sociologists [00:16:00] and all 9 �these studies that were being done. I mean, I can look back that I can’t think of all the names of all the people that did some of these studies, and I might be even confused right now on one name that comes to mind is Skinner. And I’m not sure Skinner is the one that did this was whether on prisons or on the area of gangs or the socialized, the socializing of the societies or the groups, the socializing of the different groups, how they interacted with each other. The point is that the YMCA thought it was doing something good. They thought by, okay, we’re going to provide a place where they can meet. They want to have a counselor, in other words, a sponsor with each group to help them overcome the issues. We’re going to provide them tournaments for basketball, for baseball, thinking that all these things were great. When in effect, it was feeding into the animosity between [00:17:00] the different groups. They even provided a newspaper at that time where the clubs would write articles about each other from the members saying things. But all of these things, instead of doing what they thought they were getting accomplished, only intensified the hatred between the groups much stronger. JJ: So what way would you have done it? ADR: Huh? JJ: What way would you have done it? Because-- ADR: What would I have done different? JJ: Yeah, what you would’ve done? ADR: What I would’ve done and what I come from that lesson, I mean have in fact I used that is instead of separating them into their own branches, is to mix them 10 �and mixing them together within groups and bringing different people from different-- in other words, if we were going to have a tournament is break the Young Lords group. In other words, create new teams. That way, the identity of the Young Lords, the identity of the Playboys, the identity of the Gaylords is obscured. Now you had a team in there now the difference becomes the rival [00:18:00] is nonexistent. It’s between different groups. So, the co-mixing-- the breaking them up and co-mixing them-- you take all that away and in fact you end up creating new friendships that evolve out of that, would’ve evolved differently had they done that in that particular way. JJ: So, this new team would have a new name also? The new team would’ve had a new name? ADR: You remember, I got a hearing problem. JJ: Yeah. So, you’re mixing them up. ADR: By mixing them up. JJ: Would you also give them a new name? Would you give the team a new name too? ADR: I’m having-JJ: Okay, you got the Playboys and the Young Lords, you mix them up. ADR: Right. JJ: For a ball team. ADR: Right. JJ: Do you give the name a new name to the ball team? 11 �ADR: That would be-- that’s something that would’ve been to the choosing of the group. I mean, in doing that, you don’t have to be so precise to honor it. In other words, if instead [00:19:00] by simply when you mix the groups up, it really doesn’t matter. I mean, if you could say to them, call yourselves whatever you want to call yourselves. It really doesn’t matter. It gives them a new identity. I mean, sure, that they’re going to pick more than the end result is that it could be a mix of two. I mean, in some instances, some group is going to insist, we want to be called this, or someone says, we don’t give a damn, you know, name us whatever it is. The bottom line is that the ones that takes place, (audio cuts out) the point is that whatever the group wanted, whether they wanted to be called it or not, the end result is that when you have that kind of in there, the interaction becomes differently. Because a team is a team. So, in that sense, it creates a-[00:20:00] One of the things it does, it takes away the identity of the gangs. I mean, that’s a given. So, it’s very difficult for that rivalry to continue to exist between the gangs. And as I said, it creates new friendship. It becomes more difficult for fights to get started. And moving fast forward, knowing that a good example is what I did with the Young Lords when, for example, the Black Eagles from the north side dealing with the Latin Kings from Armitage and Halsted. This is where I used it successfully by bringing them together, instead of having them in there to the point that there were a number of instances where the Latin Kings from Armitage and Halsted found themselves protecting the Latin Eagles in places where they were been invited [00:21:00] by the Halsted Latin Kings to 12 �events. That would’ve been Saint Andrew’s -- I don’t-- I forgot Saint Teresa -- the school you attended St. Teresa’s? JJ: Saint Teresa. Yeah. ADR: All right, I remember being at a dance and there were other Latin Kings from other branches from the city, and they knew who I was, obviously as from the Young Lords and shit like that. JJ: So, one of your jobs in the Young Lords, was to work with the gang? ADR: Well, what I’m saying is that in particular, there were other instances. One of them that at this moment that I’m remembering is the one in St. Teresa. There was a party, a dance, and as I said, the Latin Eagles had been invited to come to the particular, then they showed up and they were talking. There was no (inaudible), but the other branches, other members from other branches from the Latin Kings were there and they wanted to, obviously as soon as they found out that the Latin Eagles were there, wanted to jump them. [00:22:00] And the ones from Halsted, if you recall, oh God, I can’t, one of Andre’s brothers-JJ: Richie? ADR: --was there. JJ: Richie? ADR: Richie. But there were others too. The one that used to be the leader, I can’t remember at the moment-JJ: (inaudible) [Papo?] ADR: (inaudible) Papo. The point was that they stopped him and one of the other leaders from the Latin Eagles, Watusi, got pissed off and they basically told him, 13 �you’re not touching them. That didn’t set well with Watusi, that’s why I never got along well with that asshole. But that proved my point. When you bring people together, it creates a friendship and even [transcended?]. It was like, no, we’re not going to let that happen. One of the things that we’re trying to teach is that the fighting among ourselves had to stop. And that was, [00:23:00] I mean, to me, I took that lesson from how the YMCA had operated and twisted it around, in other words, did the opposite of what they were doing. And it works. And I used it in other, in my experience, I have used it that in order to get people, that’s how you get it. It helps also done it in organizing activities where ironically enough, sometimes you find people coming from different areas that come into a centralized point. I mean, in the labor movement, you might have workers coming from-JJ: You’re a labor organizer today. ADR: Right. And those were in that kind of a situation of bringing people together because people always want to be with their own groups, regardless of even within the particular nationality. I mean, if you got [00:24:00] Irish people coming and you got from a particular town and you got other Irish from another town, on the surface, we might think they’re Irish, okay? To us, they’re not going to be (inaudible). But in fact, there might be rivalry between the groups we are not aware of. Same thing with Hispanics. I mean, if you bring Mexicans from the state of Jalisco and you got another place, Madero and different areas, they don’t get along. In part, if you take a look at it, again, sports plays a big deal on that. They got the sports teams and everything else. So, if one state beat the other 14 �state, they’re going to hate each other. I mean, take a look at football, you stop and think, I’m carrying it to another level. Internationally, people have been killed when they’re playing soccer games because they’re so emotional about whether the French beat the Germans or the Germans beat the English. You heard about that rivalry that existed, that they go into riots sometimes in some [00:25:00] of these games. And there has been at times people that have been bystanders that have been killed. So, my point of that is that you avoid that kind of a thing by co-mixing the groups. JJ: And you learned this because there was a gang problem in Lincoln Park in the late 1950s – ADR: Yes. JJ: -- and the YMCA detached worker program was working heavily in Lincoln Park. ADR: Right. They were heavily into that. JJ: Lincoln Park was flooded with gangs. ADR: Yes, it was filled with different-JJ: What were some of the gangs? ADR: As I said, they didn’t call them gangs. They called them clubs. JJ: Okay. What were some of the clubs in Lincoln Park? ADR: But they were gangs. JJ: Okay. What were some of the clubs called? ADR: You had the Black Eagles, the Paragons, you had the Flamingos, you had the -- I take that Flamingos back. I take that back. The Flaming Arrows. The Flaming Arrows were the ones. [00:26:00] The Flaming Arrows were the ones, which at 15 �that time we call the Hispanic Collegians because they dressed sort of like the collegian style, as I remember. They’re your Collegians. Your Black Eagles were the one that we all inspired to depart-JJ: Like college. Like college. ADR: The what? JJ: Collegians, you mean like college kids? ADR: Sort of like they dress like college students. JJ: This was the Flaming Arrows. ADR: Right. And we refer to them as such. We kind of, in other words, in other were to describe the Flaming Eagles were your preppies. JJ: Okay. Oh, because they were more like preppies. So, what about the Paragons? How did they dress? ADR: Paragons and the Black Eagles were the rivals. Obviously, the Black Eagles were there first. Paragons came in second. So, there was a rivalry between both groups. So, they commingled with each other. There was a definite rivalry between [00:27:00] both groups. JJ: So how did this rivalry play out? ADR: The rivalry was not to the point that they would, I mean, not in an open warfare between them, but certainly there were fights among the members themselves. But they conducted in at that time with the mentality in the fairness. In other words, if a member fought in, nobody would jumped in. And if your member lost, in other words, get somebody else to take, to pick up on a fight. In other words, if a Paragon and an Eagle got into a fight, and let’s say that the Paragon won the 16 �fight, all right, the only thing the Eagles could do is put up another member to fight that particular Paragon. They would not jump the guy. They would not do anything what we would consider ungentlemanly kind of thing. Another point is there was no point we’re going to jump that guy, get him by himself or whatever. They never did that. So, they accepted a defeat as such. And then they said the only way they could conquer that [00:28:00] by getting another member to come back and take the place of the member that had been defeated. JJ: So, there’s a different style of fighting then. ADR: Right. JJ: (inaudible). ADR: It was more-JJ: There was a different style of gang-- ADR: More of an honor type thing that recognized. JJ: And this was because they were mostly of the same nationality? ADR: In part because they were the same nationality. Predominantly Puerto Rican, though both the Black Eagles and the Paragons had a couple of Mexican guys that existed on them, but they were predominantly Puerto Rican. The majority of the people -- when I say people I’m referring to the males -- wanted to become Black Eagles. But in the end, such as ourselves, the Young Lords were created because of the same mentality about gang activity that existed. The Black Eagles were not about to have younger members. [00:29:00] They didn’t believe in that. You had to be of certain age to be part. In other words, you had to be, as I recall, 16 or 17 years old to be part of the group otherwise you would not be 17 �accepted. If you’re younger than that, you were out. You were not allowed to come in. So that led to some degree, that helped (inaudible), it helped the creation of how the Young Lords came to be in part. But if you asked, going back to the particular -JJ: The Young Lords were younger than the Black Eagles, right? ADR: Were younger than both in age. All of them were younger in age than the Black Eagles or the Paragons. But the creation of the Young Lords came from myself and Orlando. In telling the story is that I was, [00:30:00] my best buddy was really Orlando’s younger brother, Lupe. And I was the captain of all the patrol boys in Malaga. So obviously Lupe, he had this little titles. I was the captain of the patrol boys, and I had two lieutenants, one for what we call the north side of the school and one for the south side of the school. Obviously, I had Lupe being my best friend, I had him as one of my lieutenants. But what so happens is that he got into, somebody had gotten into a fight with one of the other guys enforcing the rules that we had. And being young kids we sometimes took things a little bit further than needed to be. I mean, we used physical force when we did things. Somehow Lupe had gotten into argument with one of the other patrol boys and not following what he was supposed to be doing, [00:31:00] and the guy wanted to jump Lupe. So, what I did at that point, when this came in, I jumped into the fight and ended up beating the crap out of the other guy. My other patrol boy. That led to Orlando saying -- me and Orlando did not get along. People were not part of this. Okay. Matter of fact, I had a fight. JJ: He fought a lot of other people too. 18 �ADR: Yeah, I fought Orlando. When I first met him we had a fight. Sometimes I think that happens -JJ: I think everybody fought. ADR: Huh? JJ: I think everybody fought Orlando. ADR: I did. JJ: That’s the way-- ADR: First time within meeting him. JJ: To be his friend, you had to fight him. Would you agree or no? What do you think? ADR: Well, I’m not following your-JJ: Okay. To be Orlando’s friend, that you had to fight him for him to-- ADR: When I first met him. JJ: To trust you. For him to trust you. ADR: The very [00:32:00] first meeting I had with him, or when I got to know him, I can’t remember. I mean, you’re asking (inaudible), but it was a week or a month. I had a fight with him. That’s all I can tell you. I mean, going back in time. So, we didn’t talk to each other. In other words, in whatever period, whether it was months or whatever occurred, (inaudible) because of the dynamics that-- it’s stupid, dynamics being the situation that existed, Orlando would go his way. I would go my way. But Lupe is one of those natural things that happen when you’re growing up. You end up, we became immediate friends. I mean, we liked each other. We seem to have a lot of things in common. And to that degree, to 19 �me, that’s why I said we became best of buddies. That had nothing to do with Orlando. JJ: Now, where did they live at? Where did Lupe and Orlando live? What street? ADR: Well, at that time, Orlando, we got to remember something. Orlando, we were in the same grade. But you got to remember, during [00:33:00] that time, the public school system, you attended Catholic school system. JJ: I attended later. I started on the public. ADR: On the public school system, it existed what they call, they had midyear. In other words, in the first grade, second grade, whatever was two parts to the grade. So, if you came in the odd part of the year, you would, stay on the B section, let’s say, because it was the first six months, B was the second following six months. So, if you came in, in the fall, you were part of the B group. If you started out in the spring, in other words, when you enter the public school system, you’re part of the A group, you went into it. They decided to eliminate, around that time during that area, they decided to eliminate that particular system that they had. They also had started creating the upper grade centers that existed. So, I know that [00:34:00] upper grade center, Arnold Upper Grade Center, which was located on Halsted, I mean on Armitage, well, actually on Burling Street, east of Halsted and right in front of Waller, what was known then as Waller High School, which is now called Lincoln Park School. During that time, they had rebuilt the school that had burned down. I can’t recall how it had happened, but Arnold Upper Grade Center, at one point during that would’ve been the early 1960s, it burned down. They came in, built this great new school, Upper Grade Center 20 �that only served the seventh and eighth grade. Now, Orlando was in the different group. When we had our class, we were all part of the same class, but there was a distinction between, and the grade as we were going in, Orlando was in the, as I would recall, would’ve been in the A group. And when they moved, they transferred [00:35:00] him to Arnold Upper Grade Center six months before I got- before me and Lupe went in where me and Lupe were on the group behind his, just to explain how things existed at that time. The point though, coming back in here is that when we had the significance was this particular fight where I had found myself defending Lupe and jumping in because I had to let Lupe do the fighting. When he got into the fight, they were going to fight with the kids, all the boys, we were all there standing. And he started fighting and I noticed immediately that he was losing the fight. And I jumped in without any hesitations and started. That’s when I started beating the crap out of the other guy. Orlando, when he found out about it, had come over to see what had happened. And when he found out what I had done, his whole (inaudible), in other words, whatever [00:36:00] rivalry existed between us sort of ended right at that point because I had defended his brother, his younger brother, and we started hanging around together. And very rapidly, because we hung around the Armitage area, we’re hanging around with a whole bunch of, I want to say with want of a better word, the white kids in the neighborhood. JJ: So, you and Orlando were hanging out. ADR: Right, I mean Orlando. And there was another guy named Sal [Mineo?] that was hanging around the area. He’s the one that kind of, we began to feel sort of with 21 �the white kids, that we felt awkward with them. We really didn’t have-- I mean, we had a lot of things in common with him. And then there was a lot of things that we did not have in common. In other words, we felt a little bit of the prejudice that existed, sometimes unspoken. But [00:37:00] we knew it was there. And unlike, I don’t know about other Hispanics what I mean when I look back at those things certainly because we were more-JJ: Was it prejudice or what would you call it? ADR: The what now? JJ: Was it a prejudice thing or was it just different nationality? ADR: Mostly I would have to say they were mostly Irish. JJ: No, I’m saying, was it, you said you felt awkward. What made you feel awkward? ADR: It’s a good question. Sometimes you just know, you feel things, what they call the gut feeling. Okay. They didn’t have, let me put it this way. Orlando, [00:38:00] myself, I mean, growing up, we were not the timid type individuals. I mean, we were challenged or something would occur. Obviously, we weren’t afraid to, whoever confronted us to fight back. JJ: Was Mineo the same way or --? ADR: The what now? JJ: Mineo, how was he-- ADR: Mineo hung around with him. And Mineo was more knowledgeable at that point, obviously about gangs. When I say that, it’s a nice way of saying, I mean that he was prone to be doing things, whatever those things meant. 22 �JJ: Because actually, I first met Mineo at Franklin school over by Sedgwick and by Cabrini-Green. And he had a Puerto Rican gang there. So, he was already in a gang there. And then I saw him [00:39:00] on Maud, he had another gang there before he got together with the Young Lords. ADR: Right, but in hanging out in here-JJ: Is that what you mean? That he had-- ADR: Well, kind of a mix in that there were other older, a couple other individuals. We came, what started the whole thing when we decided to create the group along with the help of Sal Mineo, was that I got into a fight with one of the older white kids in the neighborhood. And it was a situation where I had come up with my bike and I’ve been riding it, and I stopped on it, and the guy was like, “Get the fuck off the back of my ride.” And I said, “No, you’re not.” And obviously the guy was older than me, and that led into a fight. Mineo jumped in, [00:40:00] kind of saving my ass from getting my ass kicked pretty. I mean, I was fighting an older guy. I wasn’t going to win the fight, obviously. But he jumped in. Orlando was there too. So that kind of made us think, and as I said, it was a gut feeling that we had. It wasn’t something that was openly said, but it was like we felt that we didn’t belong there. So, we talked about it and we said we wanted to start a group of our own. Knowing what you’re telling but it made sense that Mineo provided the means to create the group. And then we got in touch with -- there was Fermin. I mean, from school you had Fermin, Benny, some of the other guys that we had gotten together and said, “Yeah, we need,” -- I know that you came in later prior to the group. 23 �JJ: I actually came in, I was at the first meeting. ADR: Okay. [00:41:00] But what I mean, when we got, prior to having the first meeting, the ones where we had gone together. JJ: Oh yeah. You guys were in school together. ADR: We had gotten together. JJ: At that time, I was at St. Teresa’s ADR: And gotten together. We were talking about it when they came in there. So initially when we had gotten together with Mineo was-JJ: I remember you guys-- ADR: Fermin, Benny, because we were in the same school we were in. JJ: You used to come to St. Teresa’s, which was right next door. St. Teresa’s was a block away from Mulligan. ADR: Well, yeah. JJ: You guys used to come to St. Teresa’s. ADR: What now? JJ: Do you remember coming to St. Teresa’s and waving at the window? ADR: I’ll talk about that in a minute. (laughs) But we, that’s when I said, we’re all in public school. You were attending Catholic school at that time. So that’s what I’m saying. Benny, Fermin, myself, Orlando -- Benny as I recall, was not in school. JJ: David Rivera was there and there was his cousin, Orlando. ADR: I don’t [00:42:00] recall. And then he’s the one that brought Gilbert. JJ: I remember Gilbert. 24 �ADR: Gilbert was an older guy. He hung around with a lot of the Blacks from the Cabrini projects, and he’s the one that brought a guy over. JJ: He and Mineo were friends. They were from the same gang, right? That’s what it was. They were connected. ADR: Right. And around that time, when you had come in as part of, during that time, we used to go out there and taunt you because we used to go in front of the school when you were in school, and we would be calling you out when you were at St. Teresa’s because of the way the glass is, when we’d go down to the school to try to get you out. I don’t know if that got you in trouble or not, but I know that we used to do that to you when you were in school. So, from that, Gilbert set up a meeting with some Blacks. [00:43:00] They turned out to be the Cobras. During that meeting, that particular representative came and told us about socalled facts of life about, because we created, we called ourselves at the very beginning, we called ourselves the Egyptian Cobras. JJ: Egyptian Lords, the Egyptian Lords. ADR: The Egyptian Lords. JJ: Yeah, because you had the Egyptian Cobras and the Vice Lords. ADR: Okay, JJ: So, we tried to unite both. ADR: You’re right. I stand corrected on that -- the Egyptian Lords, because we like the word Lords, and we were, so we create… Now, he told us that once we became part of the gang, we were part of the Cobras, one of their branches, were bound to serve, supposedly for life. This is the Black mentality during that era. And that 25 �was that there were only three ways. The three reasons that you left to [00:44:00] stop being a part of the Cobras or any of the branches was that if you went into the service, you were up. If you’re married. And the third way is, if you die and you got killed. Now looking back, it was obvious why they chose those two things. The guy was married, having a family or whatever reasons. It was no longer considered, in other words, to be part of a gang member, though they did have, if the women submitted themselves to the group, the same rules applied to them. But it was a total different, I think we were too young to understand certain things at that point of what that meant to me. I realized now, if you look back, there would’ve been prostitution because anybody, any of the women that would’ve been coming in would basically to serve the needs of the males and whatever means and enterprises that they would’ve had about making money. [00:45:00] Now, I do know that when we created that, Gilbert, the one that informed us that the Cobras was basically, for all purposes that was done with, that wasn’t functioning anymore. I found out in the service, when I went into the Army, what really had happened. And that was because in the service, as a matter of fact, when I went in, there was the number of, a couple of Playboys. I mean, I realized the guys that were coming into the service, those particular from Chicago, were part of gangs. And in my -JJ: Most of, (inaudible) oh, so if you were -- ADR: Yeah. And in my group -- yeah, in my squad -JJ: They were a gang problem in Chicago, right? That’s what you’re saying. 26 �ADR: Yes. I mean, the people that when I enlisted all, and I’ll get into that, but I mean, the point is that, going back to connect the two things that I learned. [00:46:00] When I went in my platoon, there were a number of Blacks, not just a couple. There were a number of Blacks, but there was two or three from the south side, and that had been part of the Cobra gang. JJ: Part of the Egyptian Cobras. ADR: Right. And one of the guys told me what had occurred that I didn’t know it at the time, what had occurred at the prior years when we had become part of the Cobras. All he knew was that I was a Young Lord. When he found out that I had -- from the north side, they tended to look at us different -- but he’s the one that told me that the Vice Lords were the ones that had basically destroyed the Cobras. What had happened was that he said that, and it would’ve been in the early 1960s when I was think our time, maybe 1960, [00:47:00] I don’t know if it was 1961, 1962 or somewhere around that area. Anyway, in the south side around 63rd Street, on a Saturday, and one of the boulevards or the street, wherever this had occurred, the Vicers at that time was the younger group, aggressive. That was growing up, challenging the Cobras in their territory and the fighting that was going on. The Cobras were the older, that were into prostitution, whatever illegal enterprises that they had, but primarily would’ve been prostitution. And I don’t think so much because at that time, drugs was not that, I mean, it existed, but not as heavily as it would become later. JJ: So they were into-- ADR: But they were into drugs, whereas the Vicers were not at that time. 27 �JJ: But they were into an enterprise. ADR: Cobras were already into drugs. JJ: No, but I’m saying they had an enterprise. They weren’t-- ADR: They had what? JJ: They weren’t just fighting for protection. [00:48:00] They were trying to run the prostitution game. ADR: Right. JJ: Okay. ADR: All right. And whatever. And as I said, I don’t think the drug trades were that big, but it existed probably the nickel and dime type business, type of business. They were at the very level. JJ: So, what was the purpose of the Young Lords? Why did-- ADR: Well, the point is that when the Vice Lords in the area, I’m just trying to explain the situation, the way it was created. The Vicers were at that time were not into drugs. They were, I mean, obviously they wanted to be in, the thing is that they killed three or four guys, three of the leaders, four of the leaders in daylight, which was a big deal for that time that they shot them down and killed them on the streets. Instead of waiting in the dark or finding some other place. They did this in broad daylight, took down, [00:49:00] which put, obviously created a shock for the Cobras when they got down like that. I also found out interestingly enough, that the leader of the Cobras was actually a Puerto Rican guy. Black Puerto Rican. I didn’t know. Yeah, that’s what he was-- I was told by the Black guys. He said the guy, we known that he was a Puerto Rican. Actually, he was 28 �Puerto Rican, Black Puerto Rican, which you can remember Gilbert was the same thing. We used to, at the beginning we all identified Gilbert as being Black. But in fact, Gilbert was a Black Puerto Rican, and I don’t think, if you recall, Gilbert didn’t see himself as Hispanic. He saw himself as a Black, if you recall. JJ: Right. ADR: All right. So regardless of that, I mean, those are the things that existed during that time. So we went, when we did (inaudible), knowing that we were no longer part of the Cobras, we didn’t [00:50:00] know what happened. We weren’t aware of what happened. All we know is that Cobras were no longer in existence or the branch, whatever came down. We then decided to go on our own because we know we could not be part of the Paragons. We could not be part of the Black Eagles. Because they didn’t want us. That forced us to create what we said, where we find ourselves to create our own group. And we had a meeting about that as to what we were going to call ourselves. You were part of that along with the Orlando, Fermin, and the rest of us. Now, the original, what you refer to as the original Young Lords, we’re all the same age. You had also, remember, you have Carlos, Raymond’s brother. [00:50:40] JJ: Okay. ADR: Part of the, some of the other guys. But there were basically seven of us that created the group, and we were all born on the same year. We’re months apart from each other. JJ: Nineteen forty-- ADR: Nineteen forty-eight. 29 �JJ: Nineteen forty-eight. [00:51:00] ADR: The eight year-- we’re all in, born in 1948. JJ: We should have called ourselves the 48ers. (laughter) I’m just kidding. ADR: Well, anyway, we did it up around Gray Center at night with one of the social workers where we were, that we had met, and we decided on our name. We came up with the name, the Young Lords. JJ: Who was the social worker? ADR: Huh? JJ: Who was the, do you remember the social worker? ADR: Who? JJ: Do you remember who the social worker was that met us there? ADR: All we know is that we all wanted to marry her. JJ: Oh, it was a woman. ADR: A woman. A girl. She was in her early twenties. JJ: I thought you were going to say John [Tardy?]. ADR: Not the guy that was in the room we met in. She-- we were all, we used to go there just to go to look at her. Remember? JJ: I remember that now. ADR: Remember the election of 1963 when Kennedy visited that school? JJ: Oh, I didn’t know that. I didn’t know that. ADR: He did. JJ: Okay, so that was the Arnold Upper Grade Center. ADR: And it was in Chicago he had visited. 30 �JJ: The Arnold Upper Grade Center. ADR: Right. He [00:52:00] had visited the school. I’m not sure if it was actually him or the brother, but I know it was one of the, whether it was Robert or Kennedy himself that visited, but it was one of the -- that I know he visited the school. JJ: One of the Kennedys? ADR: Yeah. At nighttime. Not at daytime. It was during nighttime that he attended the-JJ: Now how did we get from, I’m going to get back to this, but how did we get -- the neighborhood is all white, mostly white, right? How do we get all of a sudden all these Puerto Ricans and Mexicans in there? ADR: We were mixed. We lived in the neighborhood. JJ: We were mixed. ADR: Yeah. We lived in the neighborhood with them. JJ: We were spread apart. We weren’t together. ADR: I mean, different houses. It’s not like we were all together. I mean, Orlando, as I recall, was in the same block that I lived, but he was further south of-JJ: You were on Fremont. He was in Bissell. You were in Fremont. [00:53:00] He was in Bissell. I was on Dayton. ADR: Correct. I’m trying to think if he was in Fremont. Yeah, correct. I stand corrected. You’re right. Okay. Benny was also in Bissell, but he was closer to-he lived closer to Armitage. Okay. Where Orlando had a house-JJ: Where was Fermin? Where did Fermin live? ADR: Fermin lived on Clifton, which I -- where later, which is West. 31 �JJ: Okay. And Carlos [Montañez?] lived on Halsted. Halsted and Willow. ADR: Where? JJ: Halsted and Willow. Okay. Carlos Montañez. So, we had all the streets covered. We had-- ADR: Well, I mean, the point is that almost all the guys that lived within the neighborhood, they lived in different, I mean, it was a mixed group with nobody in there, but we were still very much the minority in that time. JJ: Well, because I remember a lot of them, because I mean, my mother [00:54:00] was doing catechism classes for the-- ADR: Wait, what I’m trying to say, you didn’t have a flight, as opposed to when Blacks moved into a neighborhood during that era. If Blacks came into a particular area, you’d have the whites immediate leaving and masses quickly dispersing some of the neighborhood. Armitage and Halsted, it’s a matter of fact, if you look at the statistically, yes, it became heavily -- not heavily -- it became Hispanic, but not predominantly Hispanic. And actually then the trend reversed itself, and then it became white again. JJ: Okay. But all of a sudden it started flooding though, right? Or no, because I remember Halsted and Dickens, that restaurant, it used to be all whites. ADR: Correct. JJ: And then overnight it was all Hispanic. ADR: No, it took years. It wasn’t really the-JJ: It took years. [00:55:00] It took years. But it cleaned up. It became-- 32 �ADR: Right. It changed. It changed gradually, and then it went back. It reversed itself and went back. But the reality, you’re thinking about that the neighborhood never really, now it went through a rough period, but that rough period, you have to recognize it. What the-JJ: Well, I think at nighttime you didn’t see too many whites in the street. ADR: Look, I think what messed up the neighborhood. JJ: I mean, I remember walking through there night, I didn’t see too many, too many whites. ADR: What messed up the neighborhood was drugs. JJ: Okay. ADR: Okay. That’s what brought-JJ: When did that come in? When did the drugs come in? ADR: That would’ve been in the early, the early 1970s. JJ: Early 1970s. ADR: Okay. JJ: But we’re jumping from 1950 to 1970, so I’m trying to-- ADR: There [00:56:00] was no, that’s what I’m saying. JJ: In the 1960s, what was going on in the 1960s? What type of population? From 1960 to 1969. ADR: By 1968, we’re going to go back a little bit. JJ: Okay. ADR: In 1968, the area was more-- there were a lot more Hispanics, but there was certainly no flight of whites in the area. 33 �JJ: Not 1968, right? ADR: There was no flight. They were there. JJ: Okay. ADR: They were there. The [voting?] majority, I mean, you have to look at the whole, you can’t just look at-JJ: Do you not remember on Dayton and Willow and those areas? ADR: See, you’re looking at small enclaves, if I’m using the right terminology, small areas that existed. Because if you take a look at who ran, who was the-- not for any other reason, but what was the color of the skin of the ward alderman? JJ: The alderman, McCutcheon? ADR: Okay. JJ: Yeah. He was white. I mean, all of ’em were white before it was [00:57:00] (inaudible). ADR: All right, but the population, how do you think they were in there? And [Patty?] was-JJ: Only white, one of your corrupt whites. ADR: Fine. JJ: Criminals. ADR: I’m not going to dispute that they were the corrupt whites or not. But the point is that no-JJ: It was a white community, that’s what I’m saying. When we moved in, it was an entirely, completely white community. ADR: Well, I’m not trying to argue with you. I’m just trying to show systematically. 34 �JJ: I don’t want to argue. ADR: No, no, no. JJ: This is your story. ADR: Look, one of the things that did occur, obviously what you refer to as the urban removal of the Hispanics is that Daley succeeded, where you did have the, I’m using the word enclaves, if I’m using it properly, that existed where those buildings were turned down, torn down, torn. You think that happened-- that would’ve been [00:58:00] the area of example. There were like two, three blocks on Sheffield as you reach Lincoln Avenue. That would’ve been south of Lincoln and Wrightwood. In other words, where you got Wrightwood, you got Sheffield that became a park. My question to you is what buildings were there? All buildings, housing buildings with multiple units, predominantly Hispanics, Puerto Ricans, living on that. I take it to Halsted, which is the land where we ended up in. Halsted the same thing, where housing buildings came down. If you take a look at all the areas with a building, if you go back and take a look at those places, all those buildings that were in there, where you would’ve had what you considered to be a major -- I’m looking at back in terms of looking backwards. I can see what occurred. And so the areas that got torn down, that [00:59:00] became parks that became different, they were completely obliviated were areas where you have predominantly a lot of Puerto Ricans or Hispanics where they got rid of them. They didn’t get rid of anything else. If you go around in there, you didn’t see masses of homes being torn down. Why? JJ: They didn’t tear them down. 35 �ADR: Because the whites were living in those houses. JJ: Right, right. ADR: Oh, no, no. JJ: There were always whites there. No, I give you that. ADR: They were the whites. They, Daley was not about the mass with the whites, with the voters. How much is the other one? JJ: Puerto Ricans were not the only ones living there, but they did have a large concentration. ADR: Look, the point I’m trying to make is that they came in there during that time. If a Hispanic lived in a house on a flat, in other words, the houses were what we call flat, rental of a flat, your home is not going to get torn down. JJ: But I’m saying from Dayton and North Avenue to Dayton [01:00:00] and Willow. ADR: That was different. JJ: That was all Puerto Rican. The whole-- ADR: Look, they needed the Boulevard, the extension of the-- my point is that if you go back where they made the move, in other words here, you have-JJ: You had gypsies on Burling. It was kind of each neighborhood. They had a little grouping of people for a while. And then the whole neighborhood there were Puerto Ricans, like everywhere, all around, all through the neighborhood. But they were not the only ones. ADR: You had more Puerto Ricans living on buildings. JJ: They increased. 36 �ADR: With these multiple units. It might’ve been like, let’s say 30, 40 apartments, three, four story. No higher than four floors in most of these buildings. But there were multiple units in there. So roughly in a four building that was large, might’ve been 30, 40 units in it. And if you go back and [01:01:00] you look back, that’s why I said, if you look at Halsted, okay, other rows would’ve been east of on Halsted street between Armitage and Dickens, where we had the hotdog stand. You would recall there was nothing but buildings, multiple unit buildings there. That went down back of, take a look at the-JJ: You’re talking about the whole block. ADR: The whole block got knocked down with multiple units. JJ: Multiple units of Puerto Ricans. ADR: Take it back up further north. JJ: That was where People’s Park. ADR: There were multiple units-JJ: Later, People’s Park later-- it became People’s Park later. ADR: Okay. And not only that, but you take a look at in the back of the other one that got where they had a lot of more buildings also. And then the whole area that got taken down would’ve been by Lincoln. Lincoln over there near the hospital. That would’ve been almost directly south of Waller High School. But there was another area where you had that, I’m trying to [01:02:00] remember. That’s all-it’s like a park now there that had all been knocked down. JJ: So, wait a minute. Are you telling me that there was selectively picking certain buildings? 37 �ADR: Yeah, he selectively was able to target the areas where you have more, if you take a look at and recall, man, use your memory because you need to help me out with this. Remember, let’s go back to Sheffield. Wrightwood. And you got Lincoln Avenue. That’s a park now. That whole section, remember that all being, all those multiple unit buildings that were there? JJ: Exactly. I remember. ADR: I don’t how many blocks, three or four blocks. JJ: Puerto Ricans. ADR: All Puerto Ricans. JJ: And there were some Hillbilly in there too, because Cisco-- ADR: It doesn’t matter. But the point is that went down. JJ: It was [poor, yeah, it was poor?]. ADR: Okay. If you take a look at those multiple units and all the places that existed, they’re all gone. The only thing that never went [01:03:00] down, I mean, I’m not saying they didn’t touch the house in certain areas, predominantly. He never went after areas where you had houses built. I’m not saying he didn’t knock that down on the north side. Very minimal. Okay. Very minimal that that was done. It wasn’t done in masses. It wasn’t done--whole blocks were never, and you can’t recall. You can’t even pinpoint to me where you would’ve had all the owners of a particular block that had your, they had houses that got knocked down. It didn’t exist. Didn’t happen. JJ: No, no. You’re correct. Because in Lincoln Park there was a lot of rehabilitation of the houses versus trying to knock ’em down. They didn’t want to knock down 38 �that many units. But now what you’re saying that’s significant is that the units that they were knocking down were Hispanic units. ADR: Right. JJ: Is that what you’re saying? I’m not putting words in your mouth. ADR: No, no, that’s correct. That’s exactly what I’m saying. [01:04:00] The ones that went down were predominantly Hispanic units in there. And the urban renewal when it was done. JJ: Where I lived at in Dickens, they didn’t go down. They remodeled it, but they raised our rents and we had to move. So, it was the same thing too. But I know what you’re saying. ADR: Well, with the multiple units, I mean, what are the costs of the buildings when they went back up? JJ: Right? ADR: I mean, couldn’t (inaudible). JJ: They couldn’t. No, but they did knock those down is what I’m saying. ADR: They weren’t, and I would correct you on that, they’re not really multiple units using today’s terminology would’ve been a townhouse or a condominium is what it ends up being. Big difference from what you consider to be a multiple unit. Big, big, big difference between the two. So, you can, I mean, to me is you’re using wrong terminology if you’re referring to these areas that were rebuilt with, units [01:05:00] were not the kind of units that existed prior to. JJ: What type of units existed? 39 �ADR: They were minimized. And as I said, they were using today’s terminology, it would’ve been what we call now condominiums or townhouses that were put back in their places where they did this. JJ: They made condominiums and townhouses. But I mean, what were they before? What were they before they were townhouses? What type of structures? ADR: Well, we never had, remember there was no-JJ: What type of buildings were they before they became townhouses and condominiums, you said they were multiple units? ADR: Multiple units on a building. It’s like the house, like the building next door to me. Okay. I don’t know how many units, it’s got to be -- it’s three, four, three or four floors. You’re got an apartment where maybe one bedroom type. So, I would not be surprised if there’s 40, 50 units. [01:06:00] And that’s what I’m saying, what it existed in the area ended where you had 40, 60 units in a building. JJ: Right. ADR: And all those places got knocked down. JJ: And those where the Hispanics or Latinos were. ADR: Exactly. JJ: Okay. Okay. So now did you have to move out at all or no? ADR: What now? JJ: Did you have to move out at all, or no? ADR: Did I? JJ: Did you have to move out of Lincoln Park? Were you forced out or no? ADR: No. 40 �JJ: Okay. You moved out. ADR: No, I moved out because of the problems we got into. One of my parents-- I wasn’t aware that what ended up-- now you’re moving forward into what occurred in later years. JJ: Okay. No, go ahead. ADR: Why I ended up (inaudible)? What happened was we used to steal cars. You know that. [01:07:00] And while we weren’t aware, there was an Italian kid that used to hang around, an older guy. We used to steal the cars for joy rides if for no other reason. At that time, most of the time we had not grown apart at all. We were in a different kind of a situation as what we were now then as the Young Lords. Orlando and myself tended to drift together, always being together. You sometimes would be with us, Fermin and Benny would always be together. The point was that if somebody, and planning the dynamics of our, I hate that word. I don’t explain it, but what I’m trying to say is that if somebody saw us, they thought that we were not together. And it occurred too many times throughout those early years because they thought [01:08:00] they didn’t see us together other than when we had a meeting or something that we would attend the meeting. We’d be there at the meetings, we would meet at the YMCA or other areas where we needed to meet when we were there. But I can recall as many times, I mean I didn’t remember Division [Pete?] trying to challenge us and there’s other people, almost all the ones that ended up becoming our friends later in life thought that they could take over the Young Lords because they thought we were separate and they would come to-- 41 �JJ: They actually had a branch of the Young Lords (inaudible). ADR: Right, I mean, because they wanted to take over becoming the president (inaudible). And then so we, the seven of us and I always refer to this (inaudible), but we were the ones that dictated without realizing I’m not looking back and anything that we would say this is the way it’s going to be, but they never saw us together. We were not hanging around together with each other. As I said, we tended to differ apart from each other doing whatever we were doing on a daily basis. [01:09:00] That type of thing to me led to believe that people that came in and said, “I got an opportunity. These guys ain’t together. I’m going to take over.” Thinking they could do that. To their surprise, any time they would try to do that, it’s basically, “What the hell are you doing? You’re not taking over. We’re running things. And that’s the way it is.” That meant that most of the time, I’m not looking for any other reason, but is that Orlando ended up beating the shit out of the guys. I mean, those things would occur when the fight get started. Before we could say anything. Orlando didn’t hesitate, he was like a rabbit, he’d fucking jump and beat the crap out of, you know, and that would end the whole -- things like that, that would occur. So anyway, the thing was that the referring to this thing about the cars in which you were talking with the service that he had this Italian kid that was hanging around with [01:10:00] us, older guy, and the only reason, obviously he was hanging around with us because he knows we were using cars for joyrides. I mention that because we used to go up to Evanston. We used to drive, I mean, we would take out a car from the Lincoln area, we’d steal a car, go up north and then steal another car 42 �and bring it back. We never came back and said it’s not like-- we knew better than to ride a car. We would never drive a car for more than a day. Not even a day. I mean, if we went one destination, we would dump that car. We’re not stupid enough because we knew the police and somebody in there that would know about it, they might have. Even the technology that exists today didn’t exist then, we weren’t stupid enough to take a chance that the plates of somebody else, that the police would know about it, that there was a stolen vehicle. So, what we would do is we would steal a shitload of vehicles. So, on a typical day for joyriding, we might end up stealing two, three cars. JJ: [01:11:00] And this was a fad that was going on, right? This was like a fad. How long did it last? This taking of cars for joyriding? ADR: Well, remember I’m jumping into the future from going back from the early end. When we were a little older, we ended up, we used to go to Evanston because we ended up meeting people that we helped out on a fight, which I get later on. JJ: We had a branch later on, we had a branch. ADR: You call it a branch, it really wasn’t branch, but people we had gotten to know, they become part of the Young Lords and we didn’t really-- we went out there because we liked the girls from the north side. JJ: I was going to say-- ADR: That was our motive. Our motive was the women. So, we went up there and so we didn’t have money, not even to get on the train. We used to know how to sneak into the train, but we didn’t want to go on trains. So, we would steal a car, go up north, be out there with them, and on return back we would steal [01:12:00] 43 �another car and bring it back over to the neighborhood. All right. What we didn’t know was that that guy that sometimes used to hang around wanted to know when we were dumping the cars, they were taking those vehicles that we had stolen and taking them into what is not what I would call it, a shop where they would strip them and just did whatever they did with their parts. They got caught and it would’ve been whatever it was. I know one thing I’m precise is about the date because of when it occurred would’ve been in late February or the very beginning of March. I take it back when that happened, because I know the date when it occurred, because it’s something that’s a significant date, was on Friday, the 13th when it occurred, March the 13th. And I never forgot that date. When the guy had been picked up and [01:13:00] obviously with the day before, we don’t know. I don’t remember when he had ended. We know that he gets picked up. We know they come after us on the 13th, we had a gang fight that night, as a matter of fact, with some other guys in the back of Waller. It was going to be a gang fight. But we already had stolen a vehicle that sometimes we used to use in gang fights to ram the other vehicles from our posts inside. And at any rate, I got the message and somebody in there that we already knew and the word had gone out quickly. So that time that the cops had been asking, they were looking for us. And when I called home, my mother got on the phone and told me the police had been over here. And obviously my father was going to be stupid enough, was pissed off at me and said, because they already told him that they were looking for us we were stealing cars. I wasn’t about to go home. [01:14:00] I knew better. I mean at that point. So, Orlando, myself and the Irish guy we 44 �called, that was part of our group back then, Jerry, we call him Mad Irish. We decided not to at that point. We said, nobody’s going home. We’re going to get a big, we weren’t worrying about the goddamn police, we were worrying about goddamn parents beating the shit out of us. So, we didn’t go home. And the bottom line was that at that point, Orlando, the girl that he liked, talked him out of it from the north side, talked him out of going with us. When we took off the mentioning the group, these were the Cubans part of the Cuban group that had come over the first wave of immigrants that came from Cuba when Castro had taken over. To us, to our surprise, you got to remember these were white skinned Cubans. [01:15:00] You couldn’t tell the blonde blue eye and all that kind of shit. My thing here is this, they had told us that when we ran away, we went over there to stay over there with them, that we could go to Miami with their family down there. We told them what had happened, blah, blah, and that bullshit. So, Orlando got talked out of it by the girl and me and Jerry decided we’re not going. We took off. We ended up in-- we did make it all the way into Miami. We did spend a couple of days in jail in Georgia, and that’s another story I don’t want to at the moment, but we ended up getting picked up in Dublin, Georgia. At the time we were minors, we were put in jail and then they let us go. Anyway, all that was over. JJ: So, we were going jail all over the country. I went to jail in Saint Louis. [01:16:00] ADR: You want me to tell you about that? 45 �JJ: Oh, you know about the St. Louis one too, huh? What about Saint Louis? No, no. I want you to tell me about that. I’m sorry. We were going to jail all over the country because I went to jail in Saint Louis, that’s what I’m saying. ADR: You want to know about Georgia? JJ: Yeah. Tell me about Georgia. ADR: Okay. What happened was that, all right, we stole a car here and we took that vehicle. We’d had no money, really, nothing to speak of really. But like I said, because we were trying to make it into Miami and staying with the relatives from the people from the north side. And we ran out of money with the vehicle that we had stolen. So, we would try to sell the tire, the spare tire and all that. We had no money whatsoever. So, we had to dump the car. I would have to say near Dublin, Georgia. All I know is that the town is just something that [01:17:00] stayed in-- the name stayed with me. The town exists: Dublin, Georgia. We were hitchhiking at that point. We started hitchhiking and we got picked up. They saw us hitch, I mean you got to think back then we were what, 16 years old or yeah, 16 years old. We got leather jackets and in Georgia we stood out. In town we had these shoes with the boots like boots, shoes that we used to have that. They used to be the style back then. Yeah. JJ: Boots, shoes, I remember. Yeah. ADR: And we stood out. So, the cops picked us up. JJ: Half a boot. ADR: Exactly. We get picked up and by the police in Georgia, in Dublin, Georgia. And they took us in. And so, the story was that when they put us [01:18:00] in, they 46 �wanted to know who we were, blah, blah, blah. And me and Jerry concocted this story. I mean, it was funny now that I looked at it. It wasn’t funny back then, but we said we were cousins. You looking at a Latino and you’re looking at a white where the co-mix in the races wasn’t that back in those areas, particularly in those times. So, they’re trying to figure out how in the hell can you be cousins? We said, “Well, our mothers are sisters. One of ’em married a Hispanic and the other one married a white.” That’s why obviously that was believable. And what we did is when they picked us up, we got rid of our wallets immediately. Okay. We dumped them into the backseat of the underneath, not just with the (inaudible) underneath the vehicle. We had the bad luck that they were changing vehicles, they were getting vehicles at that [01:19:00] time. They picked us up during the day, they didn’t pick us up, it wasn’t at night. It was during the day they picked us up. So, they take us in to question us. They want to know who we are, and they’re trying to find out. So, we’re not giving them any information. We’re making a bogus -- we were settled on the name. We weren’t using our real names. And as I said, when we tell them, so they’re trying to find who we are. They don’t know. No identification, no nothing. But because they were changing vehicles or maybe one of the police officers got wise enough, might’ve decided to go back. What they told us is that they found, they found our wallets because they were changing the vehicles and they took the seats out and anyway, they found the wallet. So obviously they got two different names. They know now we’re not related to each other. When they called Chicago, obviously they were told those two guys are wanted by the police in Chicago. And they 47 �made the check. Obviously they would’ve called the Chicago Police Department, wanted to find out who [01:20:00] we were. So, they find out we were wanted out of that grand theft. They had us for grand theft. Remember they claim at that point we had stolen 300 vehicles and chased us down. So, the police now, and me, I always had a smart-JJ: You’d taken 300 vehicles? ADR: What? JJ: Had you taken 300 vehicles? Or were they trying to clean the records? ADR: They had us that in the given period of time that we have been doing this, that’s not me. And I’m not making, I’m just using the number. Whether it was exaggerated or not, I can’t account. I think to some degree it was exaggerated. I know that we were stealing on an average two vehicles a day, sometimes three. Very unlikely that we end up stealing four vehicles in one day. But on average, we were stealing two vehicles because everywhere we go, we would always take-JJ: How did you take ’em? How did you take the vehicle? How did you take the vehicles? [01:21:00] ADR: Well, we usually picked the Chevys because they were easy to break into. JJ: The Chevys. ADR: They had the small window. There was a little panel window that at that time, the design of the vehicle that we would use a screwdriver that would flip when we stick the screwdriver, flip it. That was your job. We used to have you-JJ: I had a job? 48 �ADR: Yeah. That was a job to break the panel because you were white. It was in there. JJ: [laughter] ADR: Yeah. You’re forget what we used to have, you were white, you were in there. You’d go out there, get near the vehicle, walk like you were walking, stick it in and you would pop it. You would keep walking. You would not -- yeah, exactly. Then either me-JJ: So, I would pop the door and ignition-- ADR: --and have the door open. But you would do it very quickly. You would pop it and make sure that the door was open and keep walking. I mean, you would not stand there. You would walk away from the vehicle. Once we know that the vehicle, I mean, at that point it was open, [01:22:00] either Orlando or me would come in. I had the screwdriver as much as Orlando, but said we would go in and we would pop the ignition and start the vehicle immediately. Because at the time, all you had to do was break the cylinder for the ignition and all we do is use and twist it and that would make the connections to get the, that was whatever the mal-- it wasn’t a malfunction. That’s the way that designed because it made it the easiest. JJ: I remember popping ignitions too. ADR: Right.(inaudible) That was easy. JJ: But that was done with the Chevys and Buicks you could do that. ADR: Well, that thing ended when we would stick the thing in there, we had to break it. All we had to do was stick it in and break it. Sometimes you would have to knock 49 �off the whole thing, that cylinder for the ignition. Sometimes you had to be knocked out, all of it out. But if it was broken and it didn’t make the contact, we would know that we would knock off immediately the cylinder and then stick the screwdriver where [01:23:00] it would make some kind of, always made a contact where you could get the vehicle started. JJ: But anyway, it was-- ADR: That was done within three minutes. JJ: And they were like two a day average. Two every day average. ADR: Yeah. Because we were never-- we never wanted to, one of the things that we were different and we were not stupid. What I’m trying to say is that-JJ: But why so many? Why so many? Why so many vehicles? Why so many vehicles? ADR: Because we were not stupid. That’s what I’m trying to say. We were not stupid to think that we would have a vehicle and that it was a smart thing to drive that vehicle all day long. We knew better. So, we didn’t give a shit about how many vehicles we stole. It didn’t matter to us. We were just using it, we were not using it. JJ: How old were we? How old were we? ADR: We had to be around sixteen years old. Fifteen, sixteen years old when we were doing that. But as I said, the important thing-JJ: [01:24:00] Did we ever drive these vehicles to a party-- ADR: I was the driver. 50 �JJ: --or something like that, or anything. Well, I remember taking them to the dances. We used to go, everybody used to show off their car at the dance. Do you remember that or no? ADR: Give me that again. JJ: I remember going to Saint Teresa’s to their dances with a stolen car. I remember that. ADR: We did that. We didn’t do that too often. JJ: Okay, all right. ADR: There was never any need because as I said, it was a lot easier. See, one of the things that I want to emphasize that we were, that’s what we were never picked up by the police. I mean, we had close calls with actually getting away from the police. Sometimes it was this where we were shot at a number of times, trying to get away from the police in a stolen vehicle. But coming back, one of the reasons we knew better than to drive a vehicle too long is that we did not want to get spotted by the police and take a chance on being picked up with a stolen vehicle. [01:25:00] So that’s why we ended up stealing so many vehicles. Not because we were out there to break records or anything, but because we didn’t want to get picked up by the police. JJ: What other things did the Young Lords do? ADR: The what now? JJ: What other things did they do as a gang? ADR: Well, at that time, I think we learned from mistakes that we made. In other words, we didn’t like repeating the same mistake. If I’m correctly hearing your 51 �question, I mean, what other, one of the other things was the idea. For example, when we were all picked up, not you, because again, you were in a Catholic school. We had a gang fight at the [White Front?]. There was an Italian place, the pizzeria that was from the, what we called the White Front, further down the block on Halsted. JJ: The White Front we hung out at night, at nighttime. ADR: No, that was during daytime, we had this fight. This was during [01:26:00] school. And a fight -- however it got started, I know that the Black Eagles were involved and-JJ: They hung out. They hung out at the White Front, the Black Eagles. Everybody had their restaurant and the Black Eagles had the White Front. ADR: The Black Eagles hung around the White Front. JJ: Right. ADR: Then the whites went to the-JJ: Benny’s Pizzeria. ADR: The pizzeria, whatever the name was. I don’t remember at the moment. I don’t recall. I don’t know how the fight had gotten started, but we had gotten into the fight and beat the crap-JJ: But the Young Lords went into Benny’s Pizzeria. ADR: Yeah, we had gotten into the fight. We beat the crap out of the group inside the place. I mean, we-JJ: Inside their own restaurant? 52 �ADR: Right. Inside their own restaurant. We had gone in. We went there and beat the crap out of a number of the guys that were in there that were in high school and all that. So [01:27:00] when the police showed up and they were doing an investigation, they didn’t pick any, they weren’t able, because we all got away from at the point that that had occurred, we all had gotten away. So, we went back to school. This happened during lunchtime and lunchtimes were one hour from twelve o’clock to one o’clock. So, when we got back into school, one by one, they started calling the names of individuals where the police was with the principal. So, then they decided to go and open up our lockers, and in the lockers they found weapons. JJ: What kind of weapons? ADR: Blackjacks, things like that. A couple of knives. From that point, we said, “No more weapons.” What we did, the trick we used, and we even then, we didn’t liked it yet, because they found, remember they used to have, [01:28:00] what’s the name of the-- Maxwell Street, they used to sell knives. Remember the long, thin knives that we used to put in here? So, when the police would pet us, they couldn’t feel it because we put it around the grip on the pants. Well, even those, they had found those. So, we learned-JJ: Like switchblades or something. ADR: Right, the switchblades. We stopped-- we stopped using it, but we started using as a weapon and we became very well known for, that was the antenna. JJ: Car antennas. 53 �ADR: That’s when we started using, so we didn’t carry weapons after that it occurred. We got busted. JJ: There was a fight. You were just grabbing an antenna. ADR: Exactly. We had the antennas. We had ’em all over the place. JJ: Cut somebody with it or you could-- ADR: We learned the trick of how to break ’em real quickly with a, I don’t remember, but I know it was like a one or two twist. But we’d be able to break it off completely. Because you can’t just kind of-- remember [01:29:00] we’ve learned how to do that. I mean, just the step of-JJ: But also that was an element of surprise too, right? That was like a surprise to the other person that didn’t expect you to come up with an antenna, right? ADR: Exactly. JJ: Am I correct? ADR: But I mean, it’s a weapon where we needed to have the weapon. JJ: But it shocked the other person. They saw you. ADR: Right. I mean, we had the weapons to fight if we find ourselves. So, we didn’t, in other words, we stopped worrying about having to carry a knife or anything like that when we were confronted with another, when we would’ve a fight, and we also learned a number of things. We knew that if we were fighting the whites, our mentality was to always go for the face. We knew as soon as we drew blood, they would stop the fight. We had that mentality that the whites didn’t want to get their faces messed up. Doesn’t mean that every white was like that. But as a general rule, if we were in a fight, we were fighting the whites, we would always 54 �go for their faces with fists, [01:30:00] whatever, we were fighting them to try to draw blood immediately from them. We knew that they would not be able to stand that. With the Blacks, when we would fight the Blacks, we would go for their balls. We knew that it didn’t matter to them if we busted up their faces, they will continue to fight. So, for them-JJ: Were there a lot of fights with Blacks or not? Were there a lot of fights with Blacks? African Americans. ADR: We didn’t have too many fights with the Blacks, but we did have fights with Blacks. JJ: Right. Okay. ADR: Not as many, because we were not generally — to (inaudible), never ventured up north. Remember that, especially during that time, they stayed in their own turf. So, they were never really a challenge to any of us anything. But that doesn’t mean that we were also in any way that we were afraid of them. We were never afraid of them. And we had fights with them when if the occasion occurred that we had a fight with them, we would fight with them. But generally fight was with the groups within the neighborhood, [01:31:00] the Mohawk guys, the other groups, smaller groups in there, and from other areas in the cities. We started to branch out. But in order to get to that, typically, it wasn’t like you had a gang fight every day. What happened with the Young Lords, what was different about the Young Lords was that because we were the younger group, we were always trying to prove ourselves. So that meant unknown, now looking back, we always 55 �wanted to do the most damage. So, we were more aggressive when we were in a gang fight. JJ: We wanted to do the most damage, and we were all always trying to prove ourselves. What does that mean? What does prove yourself mean? ADR: Prove ourselves that to the Eagles and to the Paragons. JJ: What did we want to prove? What did we want to prove? ADR: I heard your word, but-JJ: Yeah, you said that we wanted to prove ourselves. ADR: Yes. JJ: [01:32:00] What did we want to prove? ADR: We wanted to prove ourselves to the Black Eagles and to the Paragons is what I said. JJ: Yeah, but why? ADR: Because we want to still in some way, maybe in our mentality we wanted to be part of them. JJ: You wanted to be like them. ADR: Exactly. JJ: So, they were our role models. The Paragons and the-- ADR: Correct. They were our role models that we looked up to them. JJ: So, we wanted to show them that we could fight like they could fight? ADR: The what now? JJ: What did we want to show them? That we could fight too, or --? 56 �ADR: That we were as good as they were. We thought that they were better. As you said, we looked up to them and we still wanted to be part of them. Other words, the Young Lords, I don’t think that we saw ourselves that the Young Lords would be a continuation. We didn’t-- never discussed it, never opened it. But I mean, the point is that in proving them once, was that our role model, as you said it in the correct word, were the Paragons and the Black Eagles. So, this [01:33:00] idea of the fighting was always to do the most damage, proving ourselves to them. JJ: What did we like about the Black Eagles? What did we like about it? What did we like about the Black Eagles and the Paragons? What did we like about them? ADR: The way they conducted themselves. JJ: How did they conduct themselves? ADR: That’s a set (inaudible) the fight, that the honor system there were strong physically. Women, I mean obviously because being a Black Eagle and all that, and not only from the Hispanic women, but the other women that were running there. So that was the whole idea as much as that thing with the Paragons. What broke us away from that, you’re bringing into another explanation of the time, of the area of what occurred was, involved you. We had invited, at that time, we were in a piece with [01:34:00] the Mohawk guys, and we had invited them to, at that time, during that area, there used to be dances every Friday. Sometimes those dances were conducted by the Black Eagles. Sometimes the Paragons, sometimes ourselves. We would have the dances at the YMCA and much like the West Side Story and the whites you’d have the one group on one 57 �corner, on one side of the wall, the other group on the other side of the wall. And that was true of the (inaudible) even. Obviously the whites did not show up in our dance. We had the dance typically in Spanish. But if you come into the dance, you would see the different group among Hispanic groups, the Flaming Eagles, I mean the Flaming Arrows hanging together. In other words, the groups would hang within each group’s that they be together. We had invited, during the peace treaty we had with the Mohawk guys, we had invited them. [01:35:00] They showed up to the dance. JJ: Who showed up? ADR: The Flaming-- the Mohawk guys. JJ: Okay. ADR: You weren’t there. That night, you were someplace else. I don’t know where you were. Like I said, we didn’t hang. As a group we never were always together, as I’ve tried to explain before. So, they had shown up to the dance. We had girls from the north side. I mean, we had a whole bunch of people. It was one of our better successful dances. Remember Ma? I forgot her last name. That used to make up-JJ: Mom [Aragon?]. ADR: Mom Aragon, (inaudible) Mom Aragon did the cooking, made the tacos and all that other stuff. JJ: Because her son was a Young Lord. ADR: Exactly. JJ: And then she wanted to-- 58 �ADR: Right. JJ: She wanted to take care of her daughter too, because her daughter was a Paragon or hung around with the Paragons. ADR: Right. And anyway, the thing was that at the dance, they showed up [01:36:00] and Paragons wanted to jump them. And we said no. JJ: Jump the Mohawk? ADR: The Mohawk guys. They wanted to jump the Mohawk guys. JJ: Now, was the Mohawk guys Black or --? ADR: No, when they were there, they didn’t know what was taking place. JJ: What nationality? What nationality was the Mohawk guys? ADR: The what now? JJ: What nationality? ADR: Whites. JJ: Oh, they were whites. ADR: Okay. They were whites. Okay. I can’t pin down their complete nationality. I don’t want to say. JJ: Okay. They were like from Saint Michael’s, that area. ADR: Exactly. Yes. The Saint Michael’s area. The point is that Ralph was there. I mean, I don’t remember people, but I know that when the thing in that we said no, we stopped the Paragons. And that pissed him off when they were told, “No, you’re not going to do that.” And Orlando had basically told [01:37:00] them to get the fuck out. And obviously that pissed him even more. They left. Unknown 59 �to us they returned to the hotdog stand. You show up by yourself, I mean, no big deal like anything else, and they jumped you. JJ: I was president at that time. That was when I was president of the group. ADR: Well, you went in there, you didn’t know what-JJ: I’m saying I was president of the group at that time. ADR: They were what? JJ: I was the president at that time of the group. ADR: I don’t recall that. JJ: Yeah, I was the president. That’s why they wanted to get me at that point. ADR: I don’t remember either. I know you got jumped and-JJ: No, I didn’t get jumped. Well, they wanted to jump me, but again, they were that respectful type. So, it was one person, Toothpick, that [stole?] on me. In other words, [01:38:00] he [stole?]. ADR: It was Crazy Johnny? JJ: Toothpick, he stole on me. In other words, I didn’t know where the puncher was. Well, he stole, stole on me. And then the other people got in the middle of it to stop the fights. They stopped the fights. ADR: But anyway, we heard about it when we were told, I don’t know how. We got told. JJ: But he stole on me. The other people stopped the fight. And then we didn’t fight. And I think that that’s what Orlando got mad about. ADR: Well, what happened was, I don’t know, I mean, is that when we left, we left immediately when we found out what had taken place, we ran back over to, 60 �literally, we were running from all the way from the, because we didn’t have no vehicles. It’s not like we had cars back then. We ran all the way back-JJ: From Isham YMCA and-- ADR: From YMCA over to the hotdog stand. JJ: North Avenue and [Larrabee?] to-- ADR: Right. And when we showed up, we were there. The one that stopped the fight, in my perspective, when the gang fight was about to get started, we showed [01:39:00] up and we were going to start fighting with the Paragons. Raymond Montañez, Carlos’s brother-JJ: Was a Paragons. ADR: --interfered because he was part of the Flaming Arrows. JJ: Was he Flaming Arrows? ADR: Yeah, he was a Flaming Arrow. JJ: Okay. ADR: He stopped it and he said, no. He says, because we all always, this is not good. So, he said, “Why don’t you guys have a fight? One guy from each side. So, Orlando immediately, there was no question he was going to be representing our side. Crazy Johnny--they thought he was going to beat the crap out of Orlando because Crazy Johnny had that name Crazy Johnny. And he was physically built a hell of a lot better than he started fighting Orlando. Don’t ask me how he did it, but within a couple of punches, he actually knocked down Crazy Johnny and he was going to end it there, but [01:40:00] they pulled him back. They said, it’s a fair fight. Johnny gets up again, starts fighting, knocked him down again. 61 �All right. At that point, it was like it ended, so they wanted to put another guy. Another guy was put to fight Orlando. Orlando took out, as I recall, Orlando must have beat the shit out of three or four of the Paragons that night. Never once -- I mean, I’m not saying he didn’t take punches, but in all the fighting in there, he took them down. Okay, when that happened, at that point, and I have perspective, we all realized, it’s like at that precise moment what Orlando had done, we had grown up. That’s when we said, “We don’t need the Black Eagles. We don’t need the Paragons. We’re better than they are.” And that’s when we decided to leave the neighborhood. JJ: And we went to-- ADR: Old Town. JJ: --(inaudible) and North Avenue where we had another branch. We had another branch. But I remember [01:41:00] that I went home that night and in the morning you guys came and picked me up in the morning and took me out of bed. Said hello to my mother, Orlando said hello to my mother because Orlando had been in her catechism class and so he knew my mother very well. Plus we would stay at each other’s houses. We didn’t live that far. And then I could believe you were with him or something like that. My face was all swollen from being stole. And I had told my mother I had fell down, but Orlando said that he wanted to talk to me. So my mother went to the bedroom and then Orlando said, “Let’s go.” In other words, we’re going to fight these people. So, it actually wasn’t at night. It was during the morning that we fought. ADR: The what now? 62 �JJ: It was the next morning that we fought that Orlando fought all those people. ADR: No, it was at nighttime. JJ: At nighttime too? ADR: It was at nighttime. No, it was at nighttime. That fight took place with Orlando. It took that night. It was that night. Oh, it was [01:42:00] night. I’m 100% sure. JJ: It was at night. ADR: It was at nighttime. But at that dance that said, we showed up. JJ: I must have been. I must have-- ADR: That’s what I’m saying, you may not remember you got your butt beaten? JJ: No, no. He picked me up and told me I had a fight. ADR: What I can’t remember-JJ: He told me I had to fight him. And so I went to get ready to fight him. And then he interfered. He went-- ADR: No, it was at night. JJ: No, that was in the morning. ADR: Night. JJ: It happened again. It happened again in the morning then. ADR: Well, if it happened in the morning either, I don’t remember that. I mean, I don’t remember at the moment. JJ: He got me out of bed-- ADR: But I know that that night was at nighttime he took. And actually I thought there was more than four guys. JJ: I don’t remember that. So, it had to be a different thing, a different incident. 63 �ADR: But no, and then I’m positive-JJ: The same incident, but different ending. ADR: Right, because like I said, we were going to, I don’t remember if you were there. I don’t remember. That’s what I’m saying. I don’t remember that you were there when Orlando was fighting, right? We had come in, we were getting ready to fight. We were getting ready-JJ: Was major. It was major. ADR: And [01:43:00] Raymond was the one that stopped us. Raymond basically got between the group. He says, you guys can’t do that. The urge is not to fight. He says, you guys, he said, we can’t do this. And then he said he the one making the suggestion, had one representative from each site. And there was no doubt it was going to, Orlando wasn’t going to let any of us fight. Okay. I mean, whoever it was going to be was going to take him out. And as I said, it was Crazy Johnny, the fact that he beat Crazy Johnny, really, Orlando’s, in terms of a fighter, went way up when he did it twice. He didn’t do it once, he didn’t do it once. He did it twice. Okay. And I can tell you, because I never forgot. I might forget certain things in my life or things like that, but there’s certain things that stay imbedded in your brain that make it difficult. I know that he knocked them down and very rapidly, it wasn’t something that was in the fight. [01:44:00] Within the punches, they started getting thrown out very rapid, Orlando, don’t ask him how he did it. Hit him, hit him square on the jaw, knocked him down. I mean, Johnny went down. And at that point, it was like everybody was surprised. I mean, a lot of people couldn’t believe what had happened. Toothpick wanted to 64 �jump, wanted in. They said no. And anybody’s going back and we said, this is a fair fight. We were prepared, I mean if anybody would’ve broken up, we had a full gang fight right on the spot. Then he allowed Johnny to get up and Johnny was like-- I don’t remember. He made an excuse that he slipped or whatever. It didn’t matter whether he slipped or not. He gets up again, starts to fight Orlando, knocked him down. I’m not talking a punching, I’m talking an actual knockdown. Knocked them down. I don’t know if it was in the same side of the face or the other side of the face, but he knocked them down. Then they put up another guy. He took down four guys, four Paragons. [01:45:00] They all went down. Okay. What I’m saying, I don’t mean physically that he knocked him down, but enough where he was beating the crap out of them, they would’ve to pull the guy out and put another guy out. Okay. My recollection was Johnny was the only one that got knocked down. JJ: All right, so what other battle do you remember? ADR: Orlando’s? JJ: No, no, no. Just a battle in the neighborhood of fights. ADR: There’s a whole bunch of them. Shit-JJ: Give me another one. Give me another one. ADR: Well, that particular, the other one would’ve been the night-- I mean, going back that I was talking about when we found out about the stolen vehicles, we had a stolen vehicle and we were really-JJ: Let’s do a different one. We already talked about stolen vehicles. 65 �ADR: But there was the other one where when we were fighting with the Mohawks, for example. JJ: What about the Aristocrats? What about that? ADR: The Aristocrats would’ve been the one where we, they would’ve been with Rory. [01:46:00] I mean, Rory comes to mind because something had happened. He had moved by the Ogden area where it was predominantly Italian at that time. Near the, what the Kennedy, in other words, the section that comes into Ohio or Grand Avenue. I forgot from the highway where the guy got killed that night. You got picked up that night. You went to jail that night from that gang fight. JJ: Oh, the Gaylords. ADR: But the guy that got shot with the zip gun. JJ: That was the Gaylords, the Gaylords neighborhood. ADR: I don’t, it was the Gaylords, that’s, I don’t remember the name. I know we had a plan. The plan was after the whole thing had occurred that we went, because it involved the Paragons in that fight. The fight got started with Rory. They had to do something with Rory, and we decided we’re going to have a fight. There had been a meeting already ahead of time [01:47:00] that how the fight was going to be conducted. To avoid distraction one of the tactics we use is that it would be a group of us to cross the highway. In other words, you got the (inaudible), I’m trying to think, the Ohio (inaudible), I might be mistaken on the-JJ: That was Grand, by Grand-- ADR: The ramp that comes in to-JJ: Milwaukee. By Milwaukee. 66 �ADR: Yeah, exactly. But it crosses -JJ: Noble and -- ADR: Right. But that’s when you’re coming in the (inaudible) when you’re going into downtown from the north side, the extension that goes in at this-JJ: Milwaukee Avenue. Milwaukee Avenue. Noble Street, Chicago. ADR: No, I’m talking from the highway. JJ: Chicago Avenue. ADR: When it goes straight into the city, the first street, when it comes into the street, it’s going to be Orleans Street. That ramp. JJ: Oh, Congress. Congress. That’s Congress, (inaudible), right around there. ADR: That’s the one we crossed because it was during that. There’s that trend where Ogden Avenue, [01:48:00] you do have Milwaukee and some of those areas. But in that area in there, we wanted them to think that we were going to be attacking them to this particular area, and we wanted to create the commotion with the police and everything else to draw ’em away from the area because we knew where they were actually at and that’s where they were going to get hit. But (inaudible) in other words, we were going to the group with the whole idea, crossing the highway, causing the commotion to attract the group towards that area. The police, they’re thinking, this is where the fight is going on. We was actually taking ’em away from, we intended to jump or where we were going to have the battle with where we knew that, where they were at. Unfortunately, what ended up happening-JJ: What was the battle about? 67 �ADR: It had to do with Rory. It had to do something that occurred with Rory getting jumped or something that whatever, that okay. JJ: He got jumped and then he came and got some people. ADR: Right. And then it grew into a bigger fight. What the groups that were being involved, that was the kind of fight that-JJ: I was in jail that time, [01:49:00] me and Hector, me and some of the Paragons went to, because that time the Paragons and the Young Lords were fighting together on the same side. ADR: Yeah. Well, most of the fighting involved, some of the-JJ: We were on the same side for that one. ADR: Well, yes, most of the time-- what you’re forgetting is that a lot of those fights are always involved more than one group. They were smaller groups. I mean, you’re talking to the north side. You had the-- momentarily forgetting the Red Rooster. We had another group of a couple of groups that existed in there. And there were other smaller groups that said there was a lot of different groups like your corner street guys. Some of ’em would’ve names, some would not. So sometimes when fights would get started, it would involve in the bigger fights. There were alliances. We acted no different from gang activity than matched the way in the, I would want to say the medieval times where different leaders would [01:50:00] come together, monarchs or dukes or lords. And we had their groups come immersed to find a common enemy or that common enemy making alliances with other groups to fight another group. JJ: So, the clubs, clubs were making alliances all the time. 68 �ADR: Sometimes not all the time, depending on what the interests were and how these fights created. That example is like with the Red Rooster guys. They had a name, I forgot the name momentarily, that was dealt by Mineo, or Sal. Sal was Puerto Rican and you had a Mexican guy, forgot his name. And the funny part about it, the Mexican guy led the Puerto Rican group to hang around the same thing. They were more like motorcycle guys, guess in that style, remember? There were actually two groups within that they hung in the Red Rooster. And the funny part about it was that the Mexican guy was leading the Puerto Ricans and the Puerto Rican was leading the Hillbillies. They hung around together. Many became a younger, but many used [01:51:00] to, when they had that fight, they asked our help. That’s how we got involved in that fight. Because they were fighting the guys further up north from the Belmont area. They had hung a [figini?], is that correct word? [figini?] of a Puerto Rican with a noose on the neck, on a pole. You should remember that because it involved you and another story that you’re not too crazy about. JJ: Tell me about it. ADR: But that particular fight, when we went to help them. JJ: So, they had a Puerto Rican with the noose? ADR: Right, and they hung it by school in front of the, on a pole near-- that school is gone. They knocked it down. It’s where the hospital -JJ: So, it was like a caricature. ADR: It was hanging off of a-JJ: A caricature, somebody like one of those-- 69 �ADR: Claiming this is what we’re going to do to the Puerto Ricans. JJ: Okay. And you hung and it was a noose around the neck. ADR: Right. JJ: Tied to the light pole. Is that what it is? ADR: The light post, right. It was hanging the head hanging [01:52:00] there. JJ: And this was on Berry Street. ADR: Guzmán at that time was hanging around-JJ: Berry Street by-- ADR: Berry, right. Okay, got it. Yeah, you’re correct. Guzmán at that time was always trying to play the-JJ: Between Halsted and Sheffield and Berry. ADR: Correct. And Guzmán always wanted to be trying to be the leader of the Young Lords. We never let him be. JJ: Santos Guzmán. ADR: Guzmán. JJ: Santos Guzmán. That was his name. ADR: What? JJ: Santo Guzmán. ADR: Santos Guzmán. Santos. Santos was heavyset wrestler. Big guy. I had a fight with him. JJ: He came from Philadelphia. He moved to Chicago from Philadelphia. ADR: He moved to-JJ: He was from Philadelphia, but he became a Young Lord. 70 �ADR: Well, we became, during that time, he’s the one that-- he was bullshitting. What I’m saying is, I mean in the aftermath okay. JJ: You didn’t get along. [01:53:00] You and him. That’s what you’re saying. You and him didn’t-- ADR: A problem there. JJ: I got along with him. ADR: Well, the thing was that when we had this thing in it, okay, Mineo, I mean Sal, not Sal Mineo the one we know, okay. Sal came over to us and said, we need some help. And we said, okay, we’re going to help you out. We’ll help you out on the fight. We also got involved the Paragons and the Eagles on this particular fight. JJ: But wasn’t the fight--weren’t they threatening the family? ADR: Well, I’m getting to that. What happened was we went to, oh, that’s at the time we had the white guy that was leading. There was another (inaudible). There were two occasions. We had Miller and we had this other white guy that led the Young Lords. The point is that we go on the vehicle to where they were going to show us where the thing was hanging. The [figini?] of the Puerto [01:54:00] Rican hanging from the post. And we had gone in there to kind of survey, see what we were up against and all that. JJ: Who’s we? ADR: So-JJ: Who is we? ADR: Hmm? JJ: Who went in there? 71 �ADR: The what? JJ: Who is we? ADR: There was six of us. You, Orlando, myself, Guzmán, the white guy, Benny. That would’ve been it. There was like six of us. Six, seven guys went, because we weren’t loaded or anything. We went (inaudible). And so when we got there to Berry Street, we came in from Halsted and we walked because we wanted to go what we could find. And we were prepared for a fight. We had picked up some antennas. We had already broken the antennas and some sticks that we had on our hands as we were walking towards the front, whereas we were going in there to try [01:55:00] to find what we could find. That particular night, we knew that that wasn’t going to be the complete gang fight at that time, but we just wanted to see what we were up against. As we came up on the corner, Santos went ahead of us running, like trying to be the badass. He went around the corner and comes back as quickly, turns around and comes back running and he’s yelling, “The police. The police.” At that point, guys started running. You went up on the fence, started climbing. I didn’t know you were doing that, the link fence. You’re climbing a link fence. The only thing I could do at that moment as it had occurred, I didn’t even have time to run or anything. I dropped my weapon to the side of the curb. And for some instance, instinct, I put my hands in my pockets and kept walking towards making ’em think like-- I don’t, [01:56:00] because I’m thinking what’s going to turn around is going to be the police. So, if they see me there with no weapon or nothing, they’re not going to-- quickly, in my mind, they’re not going to do anything to me. But to my great surprise, turn around and 72 �I see all these fucking (inaudible) with chains in their pants on their hands going around. But good thing I had my hands in my pocket. So, they come by me down there. So, I didn’t even have a chance of running or anything. You’re climbing and they’re pulling you down. JJ: I think they hit me with a brick. They hit me with a brick and a tire iron. ADR: Well, this all happened at the same time. Remember, I’m not watching you. JJ: They hit my back and well, I released my hands and fell down. ADR: But you’re yelling. The one thing I never forget. JJ: I was yelling. ADR: You’re yelling. (laughter) I’m a Polack, I’m a Polack. JJ: No, no, because-- ADR: I’m no goddamn Puerto Rican. I’m Polack. JJ: No, no, because what he said was, [01:57:00] “We’re looking for Puerto Ricans,” and you said, “I’m Mexican.” ADR: Right, I mean, that’s what I’m saying. But I’m hearing you what I’m telling you, like you (inaudible). Well, when he sat in there-JJ: I said, well, I’m a Polack then. And you were laughing. But they didn’t say we we’re looking for Mexicans. Yeah, when I said, when you going there we’re looking for Puerto Ricans, and you said, I’m Mexican. And all I could say was, oh, well. And I saw they didn’t do nothing to you. I said, well I’m Polack. ADR: All I remember is when-JJ: I was not going to tell ’em I’m Puerto Rican and they’re looking for Puerto Rican. ADR: You said you were-- remember that? That I do, I remember. 73 �JJ: So, after that, what happened after that? ADR: Well, the point was, when they come up against me, I said, the thing going on, I know that they’re pulling it from the side of my eye. They were pulling. JJ: They were ready to kick my butt. I’m a Polack. ADR: But anyway, the guy, when he said, when he’s looking says they thought [01:58:00] I was Puerto Rican. I said, “No, I’m fucking, I’m Mexican.” The girl, they had a girl with ’em, or maybe two, I don’t remember, but I know they definitely, and she says, “Speak Spanish.” So, I’m like, (Spanish) [01:58:13], you know, I said something in Spanish and right away she says, “Yeah, he’s Mexican.” She recognized my accent. So, they didn’t know what to do with me. They got you but we were smart enough not to say anything to each other. So, they grabbed you and they grabbed me and they said, okay. We didn’t know where they were taking us, but obviously we were now prisoners. JJ: Right. And they took us underneath the sidewalk. ADR: They went into, there was a building next to the -- and they took us into a basement. They had a German Shepherd in the basement. JJ: That’s where they used to keep the coal at that time, they used to heat the coal for heating. ADR: Well, whatever it was. And they put us in there. And then we knew, we kind of sensed that they were watching us. We never spoke [01:59:00] with each other. You’re sitting there and I ignore you. You were ignoring me. We weren’t saying nothing to each other. And after a while, I don’t know if they must’ve kept us, maybe a half hour, 45 minutes, they come back and they said, “Get the fuck out 74 �of here. Go home, whatever.” We left. And to their surprise, when we had what we called the war meeting, we decided the neutral point was the Benny’s Pizzeria. So, then they said, they agreed that through words had gone back, decide how we were going to conduct a fight that we met at Benny’s Pizzeria. To the surprise of the leader. Because I was like, you were not there. I’m the one had to go in there. And the guy fucking, you didn’t want to go. I went in there and he says, “You motherfucker.” He says, I said, “Too bad motherfuckers, too late.” That I had, when we said that we agreed what weapons we were going to use in the gang fight. JJ: [02:00:00] I thought I was there. I thought I was there. The next day. I was there. The next day I did go, because I remember him saying you-- ADR: And when I said, we talked about what weapons, we basically, it was a free for all. The only thing we said, we didn’t want there not to use any slip gun. JJ: You got to remember that. That was when I was president of the group. ADR: No, you weren’t. Not at that point, you were not, Cha-Cha. You were a war-- like I said, me and you never held, we never wanted the position. We were always the warlords. You and me were the warlords. We were never, we were the warlords. JJ: Right. But later on, I became president. That was-- ADR: That would’ve been the only time you took the, when you became chairman. JJ: No, after (inaudible), I became the president. ADR: Never wanted it. Neither one of us. JJ: No, no. Orlando didn’t want it. I was president, so I was the president. 75 �ADR: I know that none of us wanted the leadership. JJ: When it changed [02:01:00] I was the president. ADR: Look, none of us. JJ: Oh, you were in the service. ADR: Orlando didn’t want it. I didn’t want it. JJ: No, no, no. That’s when you were in the service that-- ADR: I was gone. That might have been true. JJ: Yeah. That’s when you were in the service. ADR: But before I left for the service, you were never-JJ: I was president of the gang when we changed over. ADR: That might’ve been after I was gone. JJ: And then you came afterwards. ADR: Right. But not during the time in there, Orlando, because as I know Orlando didn’t want it. I didn’t want it. JJ: You were angry because by that time, we were against the war and all that other stuff, and you had just come out of the service. So, you were angry. ADR: But that’s when you came, during our gang years, you and me were the warlords. JJ: Yeah, exactly. We were the warlords. Yeah. ADR: Okay. We were the ones that would sit down with the opposing side, and we never, I just used the word with theJJ: At that time, the gangs were like, what’s that story? We would sit and meet and decide how we were going to fight and all that other stuff. 76 �ADR: Basically [02:02:00] that really, when you look back, everything was okay. The only thing, the emphasis was not to use guns. JJ: Right. Right. ADR: I used to be the (inaudible) not to use guns. JJ: Knives were okay. ADR: Right. I mean, it’s a lot different and none of that. But at that time, the deal was not, they were agreeing not to use guns. JJ: Correct. Well, there weren’t that many guns used at that time. ADR: Obviously. Okay. So, the plan was, at that point, after we did the negotiate, not negotiations, that we’d settled on what was going to happen. Then the fight was to be conducted that particular night, and the fight was going to get going. So, we all went back to our areas. What we decided to do as a group, I’m not saying nobody took the lead in there, that we would send a group-- from the house (inaudible) there used to be all Hispanics. That building’s still standing, like a drive-in-JJ: On the corner. That’s where -- [02:03:00] ADR: The corner of Halsted. JJ: That’s where the Aristocrats had gone. ADR: Clark. JJ: Right, right, right. ADR: That corner right here. We met there. We had everybody in there and we told the young kids, the younger ones, you will come down, go down Berry, the same street that street Berry Street, and break all the windshields of all the vehicles. 77 �Go run down there, breaking all the windshields. Right. We then, that was a Mineo-JJ: That was a long street. ADR: Right. And they would run, come running to-- on Sheffield we had group, a couple of vehicles to the side waiting to come down. Is that what we’re trying to do is push ’em. In other words, when they would come down, they would think that we were coming from that area by having them make a commotion, breaking windows, making a commotion, making them think that we were all coming down that street, coming down at them. They would turn, we were trying to push them into Sheffield to go and make them go down on Sheffield. We then would cut [02:04:00] them off by that group as the other group would be waiting. They would be coming up on that, coming from that site, coming up, going north as the point that they got started commotion going (inaudible) would come in. We had another group that would be coming from the north. In other words, we wanted to trap them. Nothing’s ever perfect. The police, obviously, when the windshields were being broken down and everything, within a few minutes you could hear the siren because it is a long block. You’re correct in stating that. So, it didn’t take, no, not too long of a period that you hear the siren. Police knew there was going to be a gang fight. They always tended to know when those things occurred. So, the police is coming, they’re coming into Berry and the Hillbillies, they’re coming down in there. As they get in there, they run into our group from the south, getting the beat shit out of them. They getting completely surprised. They start running back north, but we’re waiting for them up in from 78 �the north end. Also, there was a group of us, so they ran into them, so we had them trapped. But [02:05:00] like I said in the trip now they’re running into the street and everything else. There were a few of ’em that got away. Most of ’em were getting their ass kicked. Remember, gang fight doesn’t last a long time, a few minutes, and it seems like it’s a long time. Those that ran, they ran into Belmont, going east on Belmont, by the L tracks. Back then, remember there were taverns there. They were no longer in system. Now you got department stores and other kinds of places, but then there used to be quite a lot of bars on that area. It was more at one point, a little bit more like a skid row area type. Remember Clark, the way it used to be and all that existed, the builders that existed back in those days, the cigar shops, things like that. The point is that those guys, they ran in there. The one of the leaders, they, the head number leaders ran into. We know because I was one of the guys, we chased him inside one of the taverns and he was looking to try to save his butt. [02:06:00] We beat the shit out of him right in the bar and then nobody stopped us. They knew what was going on. They knew we fight. It’s none of their business, so we beat the crap out of him right in the fucking bar and we walked out. We won the fight. I mean obviously-JJ: It lasted, how long did that fight last? ADR: The fight didn’t last. I mean the running would’ve had been from a 10 to 15minute interval of the whole thing. JJ: But I mean wasn’t there a whole week of fight? Wasn’t there a whole week of grouping together? 79 �ADR: Fighting? There was the scrimmages that led to that particular fight. JJ: Okay, so a whole week there was skirmishes. ADR: That whole week. Yes, there was scrimmages going on. JJ: And that’s when we met and decided let’s just fight it. Right, because the police was starting to get to-- ADR: No, they knew the activity was going on. Yes. Remember a couple of our, not us ourselves, but the people from the Red Rooster had gotten jumped and they had gotten ambushed a couple of times during that week, what you’re referring to that week, you’re [02:07:00] correct. On that particular week, on that particular day that ended, that’s when the fight ended. That particular night, what we did that night. JJ: Okay. I don’t know the Red Rooster, but I know that it had to do with a family that they were harassing that lived in that building too. ADR: The point was that after what we did to them that night and the way we beat the shit out of them and within the few minutes it wasn’t in there. JJ: Sal, you were looking at it from the point of view of one gang fighting another gang. I was looking at it from they attacked the Puerto Rican family. You understand what I’m saying? You were looking at it from different perspective. ADR: Well, I’m looking for the angle that how we conducted our system. You’re right. The tactics we used. JJ: Yeah, you wanted-- ADR: If we didn’t use our tactics, we wouldn’t want the scrimmage would’ve kept on going. 80 �JJ: So, you were [strategician?]. ADR: Exactly, and then the strategy ended when we beat the shit out of them. JJ: You were concerned with just fighting and I mean, I’m thinking I’m also getting politicized. I’m thinking [02:08:00] these people didn’t do anything. This is a race thing. ADR: To me, is that whether they were racist or not, whether they were racist or not. When we beat-- the way we beat the crap out of ’em. Okay. It wasn’t like we were nice to ’em or anything else. I mean we beat the fucking crap out of ’em. A couple of those guys, we didn’t kill anybody, but I’m sure some of them wished they would’ve died that night because they had broken bones, broken arms, broken legs or broken ribs, fucked up faces that we met. We might have scarred people out that night. We were not nice about what we did. I playing quickly in a fight. We didn’t have time in there. Try to think of what it is to you. You’re down on the ground and somebody kicks you in your face or-- we did a lot of damage that night. We really beat the crap out them pretty good. Those guys that got their asses, they got the broken arms. They ended up getting broken arms with broken legs, weren’t about to come back and say, I’m going to be competing, fighting these fucking guys are crazy. [02:09:00] They didn’t want to fight us. Then when I’m talking about the damage that we tended to do in a fight, not nice because nobody-- I’m not glamorizing. That’s my point. JJ: We started small, but we ended up with an alliance of all these different groups. So, we became strong. We were a big group then. ADR: No, we weren’t-- 81 �JJ: No, what I’m saying, we were fighting just one gang. It was called the Aristocrats, but we had a lot of gang. We had the Black Eagles, we had the Flaming Arrows, we had the Paragons, we had the Young Lords. This was Halsted and Dickens altogether, I believe even the Latin Eagles from the town hall district police station. ADR: Latin Eagles weren’t in existence yet at all. JJ: They weren’t. ADR: They were not. Okay. They were not in existence. JJ: So, this was the Paragons, the Black Eagles and all these-- ADR: The major groups were right. It was us, the Black [02:10:00] Eagles, the Paragons. JJ: Even the (inaudible) in the-- ADR: Those were the four groups basically that existed. The Red Rooster guys, ourselves, the Paragons, the Black Eagles. In reality, you can’t count the Flaming Arrows were not into fighting, so some of them did participate. Now, that’s not to say that some of them did not participate in the fight about the imperial laces, but as a group. JJ: The Imperial Aces and Queens, what about them? ADR: The what? JJ: It was the Imperial Aces and Imperial Queens. ADR: Imperial Aces? JJ: Or they were with the Flaming Arrows at that time too. They were on Dayton and Armitage at the Church. 82 �ADR: They were not in terms of fighting, they were not-JJ: Into that. ADR: No. I mean either-- one thing you’re also forgetting that again, that was different. Not that you’re forgetting. [02:11:00] I mean it’s, you’re asking what I’m remembering. One of the other things that we had in our advantage was that we started a game among ourselves when we were in school, and it is just something that started off with no apparent reason, but that it turned out to be very beneficial that during lunch and it started-- one of those things, we used to punch each other, fight and somehow this evolved into two of us. It would be different guys every day that would have to fight the rest of the group, and we agreed that we could not hit our faces. So, every day it was the kind of thing where we could we punch each other, you have to defend or whatever. JJ: It seemed like a game, but anybody played it. ADR: It was a game that we played every [02:12:00] day when we were in grammar school, everybody, you were not, remember, you were not-JJ: Everybody used to practice fighting and stuff like that. ADR: Well, the point, what I’m trying to say out of that particular situation-JJ: No, I wasn’t with you guys, but that was a normal thing that was played all over the place. I played it too. I played it in jail. I played other stuff and a lot of times too, even times later, I was in and out of jail a lot, so that was it. ADR: I’m having a hard time hearing. JJ: I said other time, I wasn’t also around because I was in and out of jail a lot. Also, I was going to jail a lot is what I’m saying. 83 �ADR: Well, at that time, I mean we’re talking, what you had working against you in that time is that you were in a Catholic school and during that time we were talking, we were practicing this. Look, as a fighter, nobody doubted that you couldn’t fight or not. That’s not the point I’m trying to make. I’m talking what was beneficial for the Young Lords as a whole, [02:13:00] that when we had this little game, when we practiced, we got used to getting punched. That was the aftermath that I look back on that and in other words, I can remember, look, I can remember I trick-- I remember tricking Orlando one time, is that when we used to fight each other, whatever, and I said, okay. It’s like, okay, I had enough or come down and he dropped the [scarf?], and I went and do nothing. I got him right on the fucking stomach, I home, but it was fair game and obviously he came back at me, but we never, not at a point that we were pissed-- angry at each other like that. The thing I’m trying to show you is that we got used to getting hit so that when we got into a gang fight, when we were getting hit, it didn’t mean shit to us. We were already doing that on a daily basis. We were training our body to take punches is what I’m trying to tell you. That made us more deadly in a fight. JJ: I see you didn’t like the [02:14:00] Catholic Church people. ADR: Huh? JJ: You didn’t like people from the Catholic Church? I see that. I said you didn’t like people from the Catholic Church, but before I went to the Catholic church, the reason I was in the Catholic Church was because I got kicked out of the public school, Newbury. I was in Newbury and I got kicked out of there basically. Not kicked out, but my mother took me out of there to put me in to calm me down a 84 �little bit. By that time, I had changed my thinking. Then I made up for it when I left eighth grade and that one year I think I was in and out of jail every day, I think. ADR: You always had that bad luck. I mean. JJ: You call it bad luck. You didn’t go to jail, so you call it bad luck. ADR: I don’t know, man. I mean look, you had the unfortunate situation. Look, remember the time there used to be a curfew. We’re forgetting about the curfew. JJ: Okay, tell me. [02:15:00] ADR: And we got picked up and we were done. It was 10:30 and the police saw us on the street, took us in the squad car and they were going to take us home to report it to our parents. What the hell is your kid doing after 10:30? Remember that there used to be an ordinance. JJ: A routine? Yes. ADR: Okay. You, for whatever reason, we didn’t pick you to sit in the middle of the squad. I mean, they had us in the back seat, right? You knew perfectly well we were going to jump out. Orlando tell us that yeah. I live over here going down there on Burling Street and it was instincts we had. JJ: This was a cab. ADR: We knew as soon as that squad car, as soon as that squad car was-- okay, we were going to jump out of the vehicle and we did. Me and Orlando got away. JJ: Well, I jumped out late. I jumped out late. I was in the middle. ADR: You got screwed up and you got caught in the head-JJ: And then kicked my butt because-- 85 �ADR: I know, but there were things like that that would happen. Okay. That night with the fight [02:16:00] with the guy that got shot, you got picked up that night in that gang fight. You went in there, they picked you up. I got away. I mean all, we were always getting away and I don’t want to say whether it was bad luck or whatever it was that you had, but it was like you would always get caught. JJ: I mean, once you start getting arrested, the police know you and they didn’t spike you an amount of weight. We’ve seen this guy before. We know who he is. Let’s go check him out. And that’s usually why. So, once you start going to jail, they already know you. They get to know you. And I was going in and out of jail all that time. I mean like you said, I was sheltered in that Catholic school and now I’m not in Catholic school anymore, and now I want to be the best gang banger. I want to catch up to everybody real quick. Right? I think you’re right. I was trying to catch up real quick to [02:17:00] everybody and that summer I went to jail a lot. ADR: But bringing it back to something you asked me, what happened with going back when we really got out of track with these other things. What happened in Dublin, Georgia, bringing you back to that. They find, as I said, they find our identifications. They find that we’re wanted in Chicago, which time we were going back about the stolen vehicles, whether we actually-- When I got back, that’s what I was told by the police. I don’t know anything about how many vehicles we had stolen or not at that point. Okay, we get picked up in Dublin, Georgia. We get in jail, now that they know who we are, that we are wanted for Grand Larceny from the vehicle of the (inaudible), they put us in a locker. I 86 �admitted, started protesting. I’m saying, “Hey, I’m a minor. You can’t put me in jail,” which kind of pissed the police a little bit. So, for some reason, because we were Catholic, some mentality that plays into here that we would tell the truth. So, I remember being [02:18:00] brought into a room where there was six police that were sitting around and I had to walk right through them and I’m like, “They’re going to beat the fucking crap out of me at this point.” I mean, I’m in the south, I’m from the north. I said, I have a right to an attorney and I’m giving this - I always had that never shut up and when I should shut up and I know my rights. I’m a minor. You can’t do this to me, blah, blah, blah. And so, they said, okay. I want to talk to an attorney. And they had a list with names on it. And so, when I went up in there, they said a phone spread. There was a table and then there was a panel with names of lawyers on top. And as I said, I don’t know how big the town, Dublin, Georgia, I always wanted to visit it. One of things, I want to go back to take a look how the town looks like now. But anyway, when I come in, I’m scared to death because I’m thinking they’re going to beat the shit out of me as I’m going through them, but nothing happens to me. I get to the phone. So, I start to [02:19:00] look up and they kind of noticing that I’m calling the first name on the list or I might have mentioned the name and I’m marking dialing the number, I mean with the dial on it. And one of them says, “You don’t want to call him.” I’m like, “Why not?” He said, “He’s too old or something to that effect.” Then I go to the second name and I started dialing, and then he said something about that guy too. I go further down the line and I’m being sarcastic. Is there anything wrong with this guy? Like saying, is there anything wrong with this guy? 87 �And again, I knew, I realized I’m pissing him off, but I dialed the phone and I tell the guy who I am and that I’m a minor they got me in jail. So, they said, well, now we can go to the, I’m going to go down there and see you, blah, blah, all bullshit. So, they put me back in the cell and man, coffee tasted like shit. They got us in lockup and everything. [02:20:00] But the captain came, he became sympathetic towards us, to me and Jerry. So, he says, here’s what I’m going to do. He says, if you agree, because we were ready to prepare, we were going to fight extradition. Like I said, we weren’t stupid. I mean we were young, but we were neither stupid either. And we did, we have a certain amount of knowledge about the law. So, we figured we can fight extradition. We don’t go back to Illinois or Chicago. So, he came and talked to us. He says, “Look, if you guys agree not to fight extradition, he says, we’re going to have to take you in the morning.” He says, “You’re going to have to go in front of a judge and then you’re going to tell him whether you’re going to fight extradition or not. You have to make a plea.” And he said, but if you agree that you won’t fight extradition, he says, “I’m going to give the, he referred to them as the Northerners.” [02:21:00] He says, “I’m going to give them 24 hours. If they’re not here in 24 hours to pick you up,” he says, “I’m letting you out of jail.” I said, “Okay.” So, me and Jerry said, “Yeah, we’ll do it. We go in front of this judge.” I think it had, I don’t know what it was, whatever the judge, but I remember having to look up at the son of a bitch because he sit in like a pillar or maybe because we were younger or shorter, you had to look it up, that it looked. But we went in front of the judge. We had their attorney, the guy that I called, that they allowed me to call to 88 �represent us and said, “We’re not fighting extradition.” And asked us, is this your own free will, blah, blah, blah. Yes it is. And all this other stuff. So, he says, “Okay.” They took us back to jail and he says, 24 hours. Twenty-four hours. Now we’ve got two days. I recall might’ve been two, three days that we were in jail. And believe me, I hated every bit. I wasn’t eating shit [02:22:00] because that food, it was fucking crap. I see these movies about, man, in the south--bad. And anyway, 24 hours are up, comes in there and says, “Okay guys, you’re free.” So, he brought us up and then he already had asked us, he says, when they wanted to find out, we told, we didn’t know anything about the stolen vehicles. We told them that all we knew is that we told ’em the truth. We were joyriding on the vehicles, to go to the place where we were going. And he says, well, he says, you guys are in deep shit trouble. He says to what you guys done, you guys stole a lot of vehicles. So, we weren’t thinking like wouldn’t need a lot of vehicles. We probably stole about, we sent two, maybe three vehicles a day. We didn’t strip ’em, we didn’t do anything. We just abandoned them. And it was somebody was taking and stripping [02:23:00] them, me and Jerry, we didn’t know then. We didn’t know the whole story because-JJ: That white guy that you were saying he was stripping? ADR: You knew him. I can’t remember the guy’s name, but the skinny guy-JJ: McKinney. McKinney. Tall McKinley or McKinley. ADR: Which what? JJ: McKinley. ADR: Okay. And anyway-- 89 �JJ: He’s the one that snitched on me. That’s what I know. He set me up and then he snitched on me. And Orlando used to tell me, don’t hang around with him. ADR: Well. JJ: But that’s a different story. ADR: So, they knew when we asked him, he says, why do we intended to do? Well, we had told him that we wanted to go to California and me and Jerry really couldn’t make up our minds whether we want to go or Miami. So, he told us, he says, I’m taking you to the bus station. I’m going to put you on a bus. He said, we’re paying for it. So, he says, “If you want to go, want to go to California, I’ll put you in the Greyhound to go to California [02:24:00] or Miami.” Me and Jerry decided, because we were closer to Miami, I wonder what would’ve happened if we decided to go to California. I always wonder about that. Okay. We decided that we were closer to Florida that we would to go to Miami, Florida, and he gave us five bucks a piece. JJ: So how did you get back to-- ADR: The cop-JJ: How did you get back to Chicago from Miami? How did you get back to Chicago? ADR: Okay, how they got back. I plan to tell how that happened. Okay, we get to Miami, all right? We come out of the bus, the buses were air conditioned and we step into that humidity, man. Oh God, man, I never forgot – I hated it. I would never visit Florida for up until years-- it took me about 40, 50 years to visit Florida. And [02:25:00] that hit end and we’re coming out, we had the leather 90 �jackets, we had our leather jackets. We hit this fucking wave of humidity. So, we figured we’d live like we did in Chicago. We could live off the streets. Remember they had here, you used to deliver milk in the houses, the bread. I mean, there was always something to eat. You didn’t have to starve. And so, when we’re in Miami, first thing we did is we stole some clothes. We went to a department store, try and double up the clothes and took out the clothes that had changed it. So, we figured we could go to down the beach, and I don’t know why we had this mentality, we’re going to be able to knock off the coconuts from the trees. JJ: Live off the land. ADR: Yeah, so we didn’t know that Miami was two cities. You got Miami City and then you got Miami. So, the point is that, and the interim in there, we get picked up again by the by the Miami police, but because we’re juveniles [02:26:00] this time, they take us to a juvenile home. And because we’re from Chicago, we were the badasses. So immediately when (inaudible) and all the kids found out that we were from Chicago, we immediately became the boss. Me and Jerry became the boss on the whole floor. Because they were afraid of us. We were supposed to be the badasses. And we were there probably anywhere from a week to two weeks that I can remember. We were in there and we were running things. I mean, all these other guys were scared shitless of us, but they had us, the cells that they had us, had us to the bed. Anyway, we were running things in that juvenile home. And for me, all I know is that we’re sitting down one day. Like I said, it was no more than two weeks. And maybe I was there in that 91 �(inaudible) home or juvenile detention center. [02:27:00] Like I said, about two weeks that I was there, all I know is that I’m sitting down eating and one of the officers comes up to me and says, “You’re coming with me.” I’m like, what the fuck’s going on? And he takes me out of there and he says, “You’re going home.” And there was a detective that was waiting, and the detective basically says that you’re being sent back to Illinois right now. And he said-- I didn’t know that my parents that were told had to pay for the flight. Anyway, the point is that they take me, the detective takes me to the airport, and at that point I’m thinking of escaping. I’m not going to get on the plane. So, I’m trying to figure out how to get out of it. So, when he goes in there, [02:28:00] he walks with me to the, they already had everything waiting for me. The plane ticket, they go in there on it. Now, back then, none of the security points checked-JJ: None. So, they extradited-- they send you back to the jail or they let you go home because you were a juvenile. ADR: As I said, when I was there, they were taking me, I didn’t know what was taking place other than I’m going to be put on a plane to come back to Chicago. Okay. That’s all I know. All right. When I get into the airport, I’m thinking all I want to think. I’m trying to thinking how to escape. So, one of the first things I did when I got in there, I said, “I got to go use the bathroom.” Here I get into the bathroom, try to sneak out whatever needed to get away, not for me to board the plane. So, he said, “Okay, you need to go use the bathroom, go use it.” But he follows me and he goes right inside. I mean, he opened up the door [02:29:00] and like, fucking Jack, what the fuck is wrong with you? I got to take a shit and I don’t give 92 �a shit. He says, take your shit. He says, you’re not getting out of my sight. He said, I know what you’re planning on doing. He says, you’re not going to do it. So, I pretend to take a shit, I didn’t really need to take a shit. I pretended and get up. So, he stays with me the whole time. So, when he takes me up to the plane, he actually went inside the plane. He must have told the stewards what was up and then whatever. And he sits me on the plane. And ironically I’m sitting by the door of the plane and I don’t know what kind of event, but was one where the door was it had the seats and then the door was there. So, there were three seats. It was a young couple, I don’t know, because this is the way it heard. It was a young couple that must have just had gotten married and probably returning back home [02:30:00] from their honeymoon I think what it was. As I sat down, as he’s there standing looking at me and I says, aren’t you afraid that I’m going to be jumping out of the plane? The door was right there and he says, “Kid,” says, “you’re not going to do this. There’s no fucking parachutes on this plane,” which is making a joke out of it, right? So, I get on sit. There was not for me to do. I mean, plane takes off and all I could think about is I’m going to get my ass kicked when I get back home. I was worried about that. I was kind of quiet. The whole thing. The girl she had, like I said, she was very young, the early twenties, very, very young. Might have been like 21, 20. And I guess my face was showing that I was kind of in there and she’s trying to feed me. Because back them the flights were longer. They used to serve food and I don’t want [02:31:00] to, I mean to me the least thing. I didn’t want to eat and she’s trying to get me to eat and this and that, and acting motherly I guess. And I really 93 �didn’t want-- give a shit about that. But I’m just waiting until I get home. So, I finally get home. To my surprise, my father and my mother are waiting for me. So, then my mom already had a talk with my father. You’re not going to do anything to him. You’re not going to touch him. I know my father wanted to beat the fucking crap out of me. So took me to the side and said, “We know what happened.” And he said, “We’re going to go home right now.” And he says, “Going to have to go down, we’re going to have to go down to the police station.” I said, “Okay.” Well, we got home, my father didn’t say anything to me. I mean, other than giving me a dirty look. But he didn’t touch me. He didn’t do anything to me. So, we come home and we go down to the police station. [02:32:00] At that point, we were living on this block. JJ: [Lake View?], you were living in [Lake View?]. ADR: Yeah, no, I take that back. We’re still living in Fremont. (inaudible) We went down to the police station down here. I’m thinking, because the police station I came down was the one that was the detective on the north side. JJ: Summerdale? ADR: That was down here off of Lincoln Avenue, just north of Edison Street, (inaudible). JJ: Town Hall, Town Hall. ADR: Town Hall, right. So, I went in there, that’s when the cop tells me, “We know that you were in big blah, blah, blah. Everybody’s admitted it.” He says, “All you have to do is that you were riding on the vehicles, on the vehicles.” I said, “No.” I said, “I never did anything.” And I started arguing [02:33:00] with the cop. The 94 �cop insisted saying, look, you says, dude, we know that you guys stole this amount of vehicles. That number sticks in my mind, like I said, 300. And then he started lowering the number, like saying, “Okay, can you admit that you on 50 vehicles in numbers?” And I still said, “No, I’m not admitting to shit. I didn’t do anything.” I kept arguing with him. He was getting pissed off at me. So, he finally got to the point where he said, look, I mean, the conversation wasn’t that kind of long because my whole point was I’m not going to admit to anything. I didn’t do anything. I didn’t joy ride on anything. I didn’t steal nothing. And he said, “Everybody else has admitted.” He says, “You’re the only one right now that’s not admitted.” I said, “I don’t give a shit, but anybody, I’m not going to admit to anything. I didn’t do anything.” But finally, actually, he was pleading with me. He said, “Look, just admit that you were in one vehicle.” I said, “No, I’m not going to admit to fucking shit.” And so, he got fucking pissed off. So, he realized, he said, “You’re going to Audy Home tonight.” He said, “If you don’t admit to one vehicle, we’re going to lock [02:34:00] you up in Audy Home.” I said, “I don’t care.” I said, “I’m not admitting to anything.” Well, my mother started crying and I said, “Mom,” I says, “I’m not going to admit to anything. I didn’t do anything.” So, they said he’s going in. They took me to Audy Home that night and when I got to Audy Home, knowing how our system works, remember? Audy Home here in Chicago. We got all the Blacks, the other badasses and everything else. So, this came back to haunt me. I go in and first thing I did is try to find, because it was at nighttime, biggest guy I could find. That was when we were in the process in there. It was this guy, bigger than all of us 95 �in that group in there. And I bumped into him on purpose to start a fight. So, he didn’t realize what, as I bump into [02:35:00] him, he turns around and says something to me, and man, I just let out as quickly as I could. I hit him as hard as I could on the face, on the jaw. JJ: In the Audy Home? In the Audy Home. ADR: Inside the Audy Home. JJ: So, you’re fighting inside. ADR: And then I kicked him on the balls as hard as I could, and then I jumped him and obviously the other guards and everybody come in rushing pulling me out, which did exactly what I wanted to do. I wanted them to think I was fucking crazy. So, the next day, nobody wanted to fuck with me because this fucking crazy motherfucker, granted one of the biggest guys that I took him down, the word got out, don’t fuck this fucking Mexican’s crazy. I knew what I wanted, exactly what I wanted, I wanted be left alone. I don’t know how many days I spent in Audy Home but again, my mother got me out and went back and they got me out. So bottom line was when we went, you, I don’t know what happened. [02:36:00] I know that Orlando, we had different court dates or what have you. Eventually, because I never admitted to nothing they assigned a social worker to me, but actually I was never convicted or never charged with anything because I finally, finally (inaudible) justice. Well, the campaign, they had to drop the charges against me. I wasn’t admitting to anything. So out of the group, I’m the only one that never got a record for that because I mean, I’m sure they got into the 96 �participated, but I never got convicted. I don’t know what they did to you or what -- what happened to you on that, Cha-Cha? What happened to you? JJ: What do you mean? ADR: From the charges? From the car? JJ: From this car, from the charges of the car. ADR: Right. What happened? JJ: I don’t-- ADR: You were charged with the auto theft from those vehicles, were you not? JJ: I eventually ended up getting deported to Puerto Rico. [02:37:00] I mean, they put me on a plane in handcuffs and sent me to Puerto Rico, and they tried to charge me with burglaries, with car thefts, with all kinds of stuff. That guy McKinney that I’m telling you about, I did the first burglary with him and I started hanging around with him and he was using me to go inside the window. Again, I was a juvenile, and so actually I was taking the risk because I could have got shot going into the window. And so, I went in there and he was already an expert. I mean, he went, got a pillowcase and started putting jewelry in the pillowcase and all that stuff. The only thing I wanted was a toaster because we needed a toaster at the house. I always wanted to have me some bread, toasted bread. And so that’s the only thing that I took [02:38:00] (inaudible) and another buddy of his, they got all the jewelry, the TVs, the money they found, the cash, whatever. Anyway, all I know is that night, around two or three o’clock in the morning, they knock at my door and my mother lets them in and they come into 97 �the bedroom where I’m at and I get handcuffed when I wake up. I’m handcuffed there. ADR: You got sent to Audy Home, didn’t you up in Saint Charles? JJ: I went to Audy Home about five or six times. ADR: But you went up to Saint Charles? JJ: I also went to Saint Charles and they were going to put me in a juvenile penitentiary. ADR: I remember, hold on, step in there because I remember me and Orlando went to Saint Charles to try to break you out. JJ: Exactly. And remember that too. Yeah. We already had a plan to get me out of jail. You guys were going to break me out. I mean, I remember that. Remember, I’m glad it didn’t take place because I would’ve [02:39:00] been still in jail. But what happened is they were going to send me to Sheridan, which was the juvenile penitentiary, until I was 21 and I was only 14 going on 15. And instead, my mother got her pennies together and got me a lawyer. The lawyer stole the money and the lawyer plea bargained me to go to Puerto Rico until I was 21 instead of going to the penitentiary. And he figured that he did me a favor. So, I got put on the plane. I got taken right out of Audy Home, and I drove in a paddy wagon to the airport and my parents drove behind us and we talked at the airport and right at the gate, as we’re going into the plane, that’s when they took the handcuffs off. And then I got met by my uncle in Puerto Rico, and I stayed there for about a year, a year and a half until my father came to pick me up. So, I didn’t stay until I was 21. And while I was there, I got into [02:40:00] a 98 �little trouble, but I never went to jail. But here I was going in and out of jail every other day, at least once a week. So, basically that’s what happened. I know that they charged me with car theft and stuff like that too, but we also-ADR: I didn’t-JJ: We were trying to go to California with some stolen cars. That’s what we, and we got busted about five Young Lords, about three, or four. ADR: I mean that later on-JJ: What other gang fights? ADR: What? JJ: Any other gang fights that you remember? What about the beach, North Avenue Beach? ADR: There were a lot. We used to fight on a daily basis. JJ: You’re looking at it just a gang fight. And I’m looking at it as a gang fight, but I’m looking at it as a racial thing. When we went to the beach, remember North Avenue Beach in (inaudible)? ADR: That was the last day. That was one of the biggest, that’s when I got [02:41:00] my lip cut. That was the, which I actually had to go with my mother work in the hospital, Henrotin Hospital. JJ: What happened there? ADR: Okay, that was the day when always, there used to be a tradition to everybody would fight each other on the last day of school before summer. And we had, as everybody got out of school, there were fights. We all were going down towards the beach and there were all fights going on. I mean, obviously if the whites saw 99 �a Hispanic they would jump Hispanic or vice versa. I mean that were like, groups are going out. We went up to North Avenue. You were with me. I believe that that was when me and you, we were lagging behind the rest of the group. And it was a white kid that had going in back of us as I recall and he said something after we all had passed. But because me and you were the lag [02:42:00] ones, we turned around and he had made the challenge. At that point, we weren’t aware that there was another group of white guys coming. So, that’s the reason he had gotten both because he had seen the group coming--we hadn’t seen the group. So, as we walked towards him, then we ended up seeing the whole group. So, as a stand, we both stood, we got ourselves, I think what we did is we got ourselves against the wall so that nobody could jump us through the back. And we started fighting with them and we stood our ground in there. I know I got hit. The reason I got my lip cut was because I got, the guy that hit me had a ring and we were getting anything, but we were fighting them in there. And the cut most of been some places you bleed a lot. Not that you got a bad cut, but they in certain places of the face. But anyway, that’s when they had, what they did that day is that they took me to [02:43:00] the hospital, the Henrotin Hospital where my mother worked, where they had to stitch me up and my mother found out that what had happened on the fight. Then they took us to, you and myself, we were taken to jail, 18th Street, and I got out with your mom or somebody came from your family to get you out. I don’t think it was your mother. JJ: My father. My father. ADR: Huh? 100 �JJ: My father. ADR: And we both got out at the same-- they let us out at the same time that we got out. That was the fight on there. But the point of that particular fight, as many guys as we took, two of us against the whole group, they couldn’t do shit. JJ: But my point, what I was trying to say was that at that point, Latinos couldn’t go to North Avenue Beach. ADR: The what now? JJ: The Latinos -- Hispanic -- could not go to North [02:44:00] Avenue Beach. It was a white beach. Do you recall that? It was a beach, North Avenue Beach was for the Italians and the Irish. (inaudible) ADR: Well, I mean the police used to favor the whites and now the fighting, that was the whole thing. I mean, what you’re saying, you’re correct. Maybe perhaps we were kind of used about that. You’re correct in that they should have arrested the point that they only arrested us. They didn’t arrest the whites. Okay. Obviously it was a mutual event and it should have been. JJ: But they didn’t want us at the beach. The whites didn’t want us at the beach. Is that incorrect or no? ADR: The what now? JJ: That beach was mainly white. They didn’t want Spanish people there. North Avenue Beach at that time, or am I incorrect? ADR: Not that you’re incorrect. I think that what I recall [02:45:00] from that, for me it was that it was a standard thing that the last day of school there was always going to be a fight. What I do see is the difference of how the police conducted 101 �themselves at that time. So, the prejudice came from the police, not so much the whites, meaning the guys who were fighting. Point was that they should have been, my point in there is that they should have arrested them as much as us because it wasn’t a one-sided kind of situation. Okay, so where you’re seeing the whites that we were fighting as part of the system, you’re not really looking at the authority of how they should have conducted themselves in that particular situation. In other words, they were taking sides. Had we been white and it had the same situation, it would’ve been a total, like who started it or that kind. There was no [02:46:00] question. I mean, me and you, we were busted. They were not. So that thing, I’m not disagreeing with you. I’m just seeing it a little bit differently. JJ: From a different point of view. ADR: From a different point of view, and then most of the gang fighting, that’s what took place until they started hiring more Hispanics. That has changed over the years, but a lot, there were quite a few other gang fights and the big ones, there were so many of them. You’re talking about the one by the Rush Street. I mean, you’re talking about a gang fight when we fought on the streets on Rush Street. Old Town, I don’t mean how many times we had fights in Old Town -- gang fights, [02:47:00] confrontations on the streets specifically. I mean, when I mentioned Rush Street, I remember the commotions that we used to cause sometimes, and then when we used to get into fights with the whites. The repeated fights sometimes with people we made peace and then we ended up fighting again for any number of reasons. The fights that were sometimes we 102 �started learning that some of our own guys that had become Young Lords would start fights to make themselves look good, and then we would end up having to fight fights that we started learning from that experience that we would not take our own members word when they would talk about a fight. That’s where we started making any new member-- that led us, I don’t know how long it took us to do this, but [02:48:00] in the later years when we started learning that guys would start fights for no reason to make themselves look good and that kind of stuff, we started requiring all new members that would have to go to Benny’s Pizzeria. Romas, not Benny’s, Romas Pizzeria and fight the group by their own. Remember that? JJ: I remember that. ADR: Romas knew us. I mean, they knew who we were and all that other stuff we used to -- when the guy said, I want to be a Young Lords, well, you got to go out there and you got to fight these guys and see, we got to know how you take-how good of a fighter you are or whatever. So those guys that would go in there, Romas got a hold of what we were doing because later that they said, “Well, that fucking guy can’t take shit.” Or because we used to send ’em and they knew what was coming that time. Soon as Hispanic coming in got a new inductee for the initiation. Yeah, remember that? [02:49:00] And it is kind of funny to look back. I wasn’t like those guys, but we used to do that because, but when we did that because we wanted to know if the guy was -- had it in him or not, because we were tired. We were-- 103 �JJ: So how long was this gang fights then? I mean how many years did this proceed from? Because the Young Lords started around what time? Around what year? ADR: Would’ve been roughly close to five years. JJ: Okay. Close to five years that those gang fightings were going on. So, from what year did the gang start, from your recollection? What year did the Young Lords start? ADR: It’s kind of hard for me to pinpoint a bit because I won’t have to say that in the number of years, more likely the years of fighting would’ve been four, but no more than five. I mean, [02:50:00] we don’t have a round table. I think we got started around 1960, 1961. I’m not sure about the 1961-JJ: Around 1961. Okay. ADR: The period. But it would’ve have been around after 1960. After 1960, that we got started. JJ: And then the gang fighting was four or five years going on. ADR: I’m saying for me, the gang fighting years lasted longer. I’m out of the picture by 1965, at the end of 1965. That’s why I’m saying close to five years because I left in November. JJ: Of 1965 to the service? ADR: When I went into the service. JJ: It was November of 1965. ADR: Right. In 1965, November of 1965. That’s why I’m saying when we’re asking that question about number of years fighting, the fighting continued obviously after I was gone, but I was no longer part of that because I was in the service. And the 104 �reason I decided it was part of it was some of the things that at that point, it was already current with us as [02:51:00] a Young Lords, but Orlando, Fermin, Benny, you were completely out of the list immediately. We said we were going to go into the service together because we were tired of the bullshit that was around us, and we had decided that we were going to go to the service and you were the first one that I can remember in my recollection, I don’t know whether that’s correct or not. My recollection is that your mother, immediately when I found out you were gone and said, “No, you’re not going into that. You were not going to go.” JJ: I didn’t get accepted. ADR: Huh? JJ: I didn’t get accepted because I had children and I had a record. That’s the reasoning. ADR: You didn’t have children back then. JJ: I actually volunteered. I think we marched together to the recruiting station that was on Lincoln Avenue and I was saying, “Let’s go march together.” I was persuading everybody to go march and everybody got accepted except me [02:52:00] and I had persuaded everybody. ADR: Right. Maybe you’re right about that. I’m not going to then, okay, you might be right. Okay. Then Fermin was second. I know that. JJ: Fermin was there. Okay. Who was there? ADR: Fermin was-- his mother got freaked out. JJ: We was march— 105 �ADR: Fermin’s mother freaked out about him going to the service. Benny, because he was close to Fermin, then dropped out. Then Orlando dropped out and I was the one that was left and I said, “Fuck it. I’m not backing out.” And I decided to go in. Okay, so out of the group, I’m the one that-JJ: So, you were going from 1965 to when? ADR: To 1968. JJ: To 1968 to-- because that’s when we started here. That’s when it turned political in 1968. ADR: Right when [02:53:00] we come back, you’re talking a whole different thing that had taken place. Ralph was the one that started getting political. When I came back-JJ: Okay, let’s hold it right there. END OF VIDEO FILE 106 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/eb0fbf63b71f6e879499cc73be870422.mp4 746487830d8f11961549600761b6eb6f Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Angel “Sal” del Rivero vídeo entrevista y biografía, entrevista 1 Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Mexicano-Americanos--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Mexicano-Americanos--Illinois--Chicago--Vida social y costumbres Veteranos--Relatos personales Pandillas--Illinois--Chicago Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Rivero_Angel_del_1 Title A name given to the resource Angel “Sal” del Rivero video interview and transcript, interview 1 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rivero, Angel del Description An account of the resource Angel “Sal” del Rivero was born in Mexico. In the late 1950s and early 1960s he lived in Lincoln Park on Dayton Street. Later his family moved to the Lakeview Neighborhood near Wrigley Field. Mr. Rivero became one of the original members of the Young Lords in 1959. While the Young Lords were transforming themselves into a human rights movement, Mr. Rivero was serving in the U.S. military. When he came out most Young Lords were opposed to the Vietnam War, although many Young Lords also served on the front lines in that war. Mr. Rivero at first resented those who opposed the war. But after Young Lord Manuel Ramos was killed by an off duty policeman, the entire Young Lords group reunited themselves for human rights. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Mexican Americans--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Mexican Americans--Illinois--Chicago--Social life and customs Veterans--Personal narratives Gangs--Illinois--Chicago Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-07-11 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/398132f23a4d0abd7bef4a0a6362ec28.pdf b138cb5c3e547a544f43470d5d52a8dd PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Angel “Sal” del Rivero Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 7/12/2012 Biography and Description Angel “Sal” Del Rivero was born in Mexico. In the late 1950s and early 1960s he lived in Lincoln Park on Dayton Street. Later his family moved to the Lakeview Neighborhood near Wrigley Field, but he never left Lincoln Park as he traveled to it daily. Mr. Rivero became one of the original members of the Young Lords in 1959. The other original members of the Young Lords were all Puerto Rican, including Santos Guzman who moved to Lincoln Park from Philadelphia, Benny Pérez who lived on Halsted, Fermin Pérez (no relation to Benny), and David “Chicken Killer” Rivera whose regular job later was at a meat market. Mr. Rivero’s father was the neighborhood barber who cut hair from their home on Fremont and Bissell Streets, which then crossed each other where they both ended. Mr. Rivero’s brothers improvised a roller coaster ride made from wooden fruit crates that slid down the railing of their back porch stairway, racing down into the backyard until the crates finally hit ground on the cement pavement would glide it on their own. It was exhilarating until the ride ended at the fence. All the neighborhood kids enjoyed it and the Rivero kids made a mint from the nickles they charged for the rides.The first president of the Young Lords was Joe Vicente, who had Italian features. Mr. Jiménez became the last president of several because he was always in and out of jail. Mr. Vicente also lived in the Italian section of Lincoln Park, by De Paul University, on Sheffield and Belden. His cousin, Johnny Trinidad had moved from New York, to Indiana Harbor’s Steel Mill area, and then moved onto 95th and Halsted Streets. Mr. Trinidad always �was free with his opinions, especially before, after, and when he briefly popped into meetings to watch, but he rarely attended any full meeting, saying that he could not because he lived out of the neighborhood. Mr. Rivero recalls these early days, noting that the fact that ethnic youth groups lived in segregated blocks in these early days also played a big difference in their organizing. In 1959, Puerto Ricans were still scattered throughout Lincoln Park and so the Young Lords did not begin from a concentrated hangout but were spread out, trying to carve out their own place within Lincoln Park. For many this meant being targeted by white ethnic youth because they had darker skin, were Puerto Rican, or spoke Spanish. Mr. Rivero recalls the numerous stands the Young Lords made in their early days. As more Latinos and African Americans moved into Lincoln Park, Humbolt Park, Wicker Park, and parts of Lakeview through the 1950s and 1960s, youth began to unite more around national origins. Mr. Rivero describes an encounter where the Young Lords, Latin Eagles, and a whole range of northside Puerto Ricans gangs became involved. The Aristocrats were an established white gang that was led by their only Puerto Rican member, Dulio. They had argued with a Puerto Rican family and had entered into a primarily Puerto Rican housing project called California Terrace, located by Halsted and Barry near Clark Streets and threw bricks through all the windows. A war involving about 400 people began and the white Town Hall policemen hid from view. It lasted an entire week. On one of the days, the Puerto Ricans walked down Barry Street and broke out all the car windows, from Halsted to Sheffield looking for and challenging the Aristocrats in their own territory. On another occasion, a stuffed figure of a person hung by the neck from electrical wires high up in the middle of the street, resembling a lynching. The war ended when both groups met on their own and agreed to stop fighting, to avoid being arrested by the police. Mr. Rivero recalls being one of the war counselors with Mr. Jiménez and helping to resolve the conflict. While the Young Lords were transforming themselves into a human rights movement, Mr. Rivero was serving in the U.S. military. When he came out most Young Lords were opposed to the Vietnam War, although many Young Lords also served on the front lines in that war. Mr. Rivero at first resented those who opposed the war. But after Young Lord Manuel Ramos was killed by an off duty policeman, the entire Young Lords group reunited themselves for human rights. �Transcript ANGEL DEL RIVERO: In a day or two then they decided to send us to Korea. So when I went to Korea, I got sent to a missile site. That prompted-- what I understand is that while I was gone, Orlando was the one that wrote me a letter saying that a colonel had visited the YMCA, the group, inquiring about me. The reason the inquiry was being made is I was being sent to a missile site, so I needed to have a clearance, and when they did, they were doing a background check on me and everything else. And so Orlando was like, I didn’t know what it was about, but when I found out about it, I realized what that was about. They made the inquiry and anyway, the point is that I got, because I was being sent to missile site, I got what they call a confidential clearance. At any rate, I spent 13 months [00:01:00] in Korea. The significance of the period that I was in there that I almost got killed. I had a Jeep fall on me. That’s when I busted my back, my ribs on a Jeep accident, right towards the end of my tour of duty. From that coming back, I came back on leave, but my parents decided that I should go to, spend about a couple of weeks in Mexico for vacation. Came back, got sent to the statesides in Washington and from Washington, the state of Washington, and went to Vietnam. Then that’s when I came back and it ended my tour duty in Vietnam. I came back to the stateside, but [00:02:00] Cha-Cha, you’re falling asleep, man. Hey, you want to end the interview because you’re falling asleep? The main reason was because we could not be part of the other groups mean either the Paragons or the Eagles, is that if you’re referring to the area of the gang activity. 1 �JOSE JIMENEZ: Right. So that’s the only main reason. ADR: The main reason mean, obviously I would’ve to say that was the main reason why the Young Lords came into being. JJ: So we wanted to fit in. But what about, okay, so you’re saying that the main reason that we wanted to, from your perspective, become a Young Lord’s gang was because we wanted to fit in with the older guys, but they wouldn’t let us fit in. ADR: Right. JJ: We were too young. But did it also have to do with us getting beaten up by the white gangs? ADR: No, I don’t think because we were getting [00:03:00] jumped or anything like that, no. That would’ve been--no, I don’t see that as a factor at all. As individuals we didn’t-- I think the more strongly purpose, the reason would’ve been the one to fit in with the older groups, we certainly that had no fear of the white groups that existed in the area. I mean, common sense-- common sense dictates, I mean, the difference between other people or groups where gangs evolve or get started and the variables that exist and how that comes to about. But as a group, not really. I think without realizing-- [00:04:00] it’s sort of creating a team. Sometimes teams come into being -- Or I was trying to make another explanation. My perspective, for us, it was like a team that was created much, I mean, I’m making an analogy. Any team that becomes successful and a team becomes successful, obviously you don’t hear it about the ones that don’t become successful. So the analogy that I’m trying to make out of this particular situation is as far as the Young Lords and what later on is represented, was 2 �much in the analogy that I’m talking about that I’m thinking is sort of like with the Bulls, for example. Obviously without Michael Jordan [00:05:00] and other, but it wasn’t just Michael Jordan. The other players that played, that was made up in there with the coach and everything else made through a unique team that ended up winning a lot of titles for the Chicago. I mean, it is the Bulls as they won, and when they broke away, it hasn’t been in Chicago, it hasn’t been duplicated. And so I think that it does when certain things, elements that come into being a can create that kind of environment. So not every team, not everybody’s going to succeed at those particular levels. So, so far as the gang activity, this is what I mean, what the Young Lords represented. The innovations, we didn’t know we were doing anything-- referring to the weapons, for example-- lessons learned. It wasn’t like we sat down and that we needed to continue to carry weapons. When we got caught the first [00:06:00] time with the blackjacks and with the knives in that particular gang fight at Arnold Upper Grade Center, we quickly learned this is not a smart thing to do, to be carrying weapons around so we changed our tactics and improved on it. That made it a lot easier that we could walk around. Somebody stopped the searches. I mean, a police officer pulling us over won’t find any weapon, no reason to be picked up, no reason to be thrown in jail. We didn’t give them the excuse. We didn’t know what we were doing. I mean, the effect, the impact that we were having and we were creating. The other area that I already spoken about is about the ability to, the tactics and learning how to fight, how to take a punch. We didn’t know we were training ourselves for fights. We even thought as that we thought it was a game to play 3 �among each other. Obviously, when we look back on that, for me it makes me realize why is, I mean that when we were fighting, we didn’t think about when we were fighting that we took a punch or not. It was sort [00:07:00] of like second nature to us. We took a punch, like so what, the guy hit me big deal, or that it stung or that it hurt. But because we were already used to that, that was the part without realizing that we were training ourselves, we didn’t know if we were doing that. Years later, we came to realize, I mean, in my part, I came to realize, wait a minute, we trained ourselves to take a hit to be able to attack. We were fighting-the little things that we did. And again, in that particular area of fighting how somebody throws a punch, how to receive the punch. Because when we’re fighting, again, I have to emphasize that in there, that how we learned it wasn’t just taking the hit, but when you’re seeing it, where you going to get it, where you want that impact to hit, you’re not going to avoid the hit, and it had to become second nature. So that we would, in fighting how when somebody would hit and how we get hit sometimes where we leaned, how we moved, all of these things was part of that particular thing that made us, [00:08:00] later on, I mean, it started to make us famous and obviously the thing that we wanted to prove to the Paragons and to the Eagles, that we were just as good as they were. So we wanted to do more damage. And again, all of those little things that were being done in that time helped us to gain that reputation. But the cornerstone, not the-wrong word. The turning point was the fight that I mentioned that, as I said, when Orlando had to fight with the Paragons over the issue, that they wanted to jump the [Black...?] 4 �JJ: Okay, and which, yeah, that was the corner, the turning point at that time. So I think you made a very important point here. You said that a lot of it had to do with fitting in more than in protection. In other words, that we were not afraid of the white gangs. ADR: Or [00:09:00] the Black gangs for that matter? JJ: Or the Black gangs or anybody. It was more like we wanted to fit in and we couldn’t fit in the Black Eagles. They were older or the Paragons. So we had to have our own group, and now we’ve got to show them that we’re even better than they are. So that’s a very important point. ADR: Well, obviously we-JJ: From my perspective, I am going by the routine saying that it was for protection. But actually I agree with you. I think now that you’ve mentioned that, that was more like we wanted our own thing, our own-- ADR: Well, the other area, I mean in the fighting we did-- as far as the fighting, again, how we conducted ourselves. One of the other which has been touched, and I’m retouching the particular area, is the area that we were not constantly [00:10:00] together. That also was a plus side, because it is, as I said internally, there were groups that individuals, individuals that came in thinking we can take over or we can run it, and always coming up against a solid wall of, no, you’re not going to do it. JJ: So how did that work that we were not together all the time? You mean the whole group wasn’t together. ADR: It’s just the way we-- 5 �JJ: But they had little groups. We had little cliques. ADR: It was our lifestyles. I mean, more than anything else, for whatever reasons. For example, obviously, well, not for whatever reasons. I mean, if you take a look at Benny and Fermin, they tended to be in school together. They’re always doing things together. So it was natural for them to go in a particular way. JJ: Okay, so you had one group. That was one group, and then there was-- ADR: The other group. I mean, there were other, a mix of groups [00:11:00] because one of the things I have mentioned earlier, they were not, when I’m talking, not that it’s difficult to remember, but there were a lot of other people. You got other people involved in part of the Young Lords that came in and ended up believing or that throughout the period of time that things were going on. JJ: There were different generations. Again-- ADR: Not so much that there were generations. I would’ve to say that there were individuals, how would I put it? The reflection for me, I mean among ourselves, is that we tended to have a certain people that followed us as a group. So for example, me and Orlando tended to be together, but it wasn’t just me and Orlando. There were other fringes from the newer members that would hang around with us just as much as when you drifted, you drifted with you. We spent time with you, but not as much as, in other words, you tended to drift away from us with other individuals, but [00:12:00] we weren’t-JJ: Everybody went, there were different cliques and everybody-- ADR: Exactly. Different areas and things that were going on. JJ: So that gives me, other people were drifting around too to the different groups. 6 �ADR: And it wasn’t that we didn’t get along or anything. It’s just the way for me, even-JJ: One day, somebody hung around here and another day in another location. ADR: I’m trying to think of it. There was a lot of individuals that had a certain amount of impact. For example, you had Shorty, a Mexican guy. It also had to do with the girlfriends and individuals the way who was with whom and that kind of stuff. The only thing I can explain, I mean if you’re talking from my perspective, is that I just happened to be-- spend more time with Orlando than I did with anybody else because we just tended to naturally drift together. I know I taught him how to drive a car, which was kind of funny so far as, because we had to go steal a car, steal cars in order [00:13:00] to teach him because he wanted to learn how to drive. Remember, I was the only one at the beginning. I was the only one that knew how to drive. The only reason I knew how to drive because my father wanted to wash his car every day or every other day on it that forced me to learn how to drive. My father loved cars and I didn’t, I mean, I didn’t really care for them, but I was the very first one that knew-- out of that whole group that knew how to drive. You had to learn, and you learn actually more quicker than Orlando. Orlando’s wrecked. I don’t have any vehicles. JJ: I learned in a stolen car. We all learned in a stolen car. ADR: He busted up a couple of cars in the process of learning how to drive. JJ: I ate it from (inaudible) too. ADR: And you had an easier time learning how to drive than he did. As I recall, okay. 7 �JJ: So people were drifting from one group to the other group and all over the neighborhood. So [00:14:00] they were in different parts of the neighborhood. Some went to, what is it, the Adams playground? ADR: And also, yeah, but you got to remember how we went home when we went home and things like that. The things. But it was just sort of a, I don’t think that we were any different in terms of that socializing than any other group. And I believe that any other group, there’s a tendency for certain people to hang around together. Within a given group, you have your inner circle of certain individuals hanging together or spending more time with each other than other individuals. And so that’s the way it worked. So there were a lot more gang-- I mean, there was a lot more for me, because I have deference, because when you talk about the fighting that existed at the beginning, what made us, I mean [00:15:00] becoming more noble was for another reason that we drifted out of the neighborhood. So when you’re referring to other areas, we weren’t just hanging around Armitage and Halsted. We’re going up north. We went to that, which now I believe is part of the Latin school where they had the private school that existed back then that we had. I mean, we went-- things to come back to mind that were a lot of different places. The guy that actually got us with the idea to help out that came in, I can only remember his nationality. He was actually a Spaniard, Spanish kid. He was in high school with us that became part of the Young Lords, and they had asked him for help because they knew some of the people that were, which turned out to be the Cuban, I referred to as the Cuban clan, if you will. The individuals that, as I said, that first wave of immigrants that 8 �came to the United States, that the Castro had ousted, Batista, and we had that came here. There was like 10,000, [00:16:00] I believe, that came into the Chicago area at that time, or maybe exactly what the number. But these were well to do people. The children were attending-JJ: We actually had a branch of them up north. ADR: Well, that’s because we helped them. How we ended up going is that they had a fight actually with some Japanese kids, that karate bullshit and all that other stuff we’re going to be, who gives a fuck about karate. We went and beat the crap out of ’em. They were endeared to us because we helped them out on the fight. We went in there and did what we did and beat the shit out of these guys, and then invited us to go up north where they lived. They lived up in Evanston. JJ: They had nice girlfriends. ADR: Beautiful women. So that was part of the, and obviously for girls, I mean, the thing about it is that obviously we were the Young Lords, so we attracted a certain amount of-- women are women, I mean, even back [00:17:00] then, no reality that we had is then we were the Young Lords. So it wasn’t because it was Sal, or it was Cha Cha, I’m going on with a Young Lord, we had the reputation. JJ: What about Young Lordettes? ADR: Huh? JJ: Weren’t there Young Lordettes, ADR: These were pissed off-- The Lordettes was a part of a group of women that were part of us. But you would have to ask, I mean, and this kind of thing. That’s the question that they would need to answer. Obviously they knew-- I can’t believe 9 �that did not aware of what we were doing. And certainly that must have pissed him off at times because we really, at least for my part, and even Orlando, I think, but we didn’t have steady girlfriends, and I don’t think we did it as something that was in our minds. I think it was part of our mentality is that because we were meeting girls all over the place. I mean, when we used to go down Lincoln, [00:18:00] Evanston, the South Side, other areas, we were always constantly meeting women. So it was not like we wanted to be tied down to a particular girl. And me in my particular, I tended to stay away. And then I think it was true for the rest of us. Though, I got to say, you reminded me something about you. You tended to fall in love. You tended to fall in it, and you fell hard. It was like, I got to be with a woman. And it’s like, what the fuck is wrong with Cha-Cha, man? I got all these other damn broads. And then he’s out there-- you used to get heartbroken when you were out with a girl. You wanted to be with her sometimes. Now you’re making me remember certain things. It not that you didn’t want to spend time with us, it’s that you fell in love with the damn broad and you had to be with her all the goddamn time. Like what the fuck is wrong? Leave them alone. Interested. JJ: Why would I want to be in a gang? ADR: The funny part about it, you ended up, how many times? Well, I mean, I’m not trying to get personal, but-JJ: How many divorces, right? ADR: Right. [00:19:00] I don’t-- I mean, I used to not be tied down or anything. JJ: You’re still married to the same woman. 10 �ADR: Exactly. JJ: How long have you been married to the same-- ADR: I don’t-- 43 years. JJ: Forty-three years to the same woman. ADR: That’s the opposite of you. You know what I mean. I don’t understand that. JJ: You made your point. You can rest your truth. ADR: But you did. I mean, you are reminded of certain things where sometimes certain things are missing. It’s coming in there and you’re making me realize that you had something that, I mean, I am kind of, I’m not dwelling on it. I’m just trying to point out that kind of fits a little bit of the puzzle of that why sometimes you weren’t hanging around with me and Orlando or some of the other guys because you did get taken aback when you were with a woman. JJ: You think that could have been because I was going to jail a lot or --? ADR: No, you keep saying it. Jail. It [00:20:00] wasn’t jail. JJ: It wasn’t jail. ADR: You didn’t spend, I mean, you did certain things. It had to do with the women. That’s where you, the thing about that was going on with you. You did. I mean, there’s no doubt that you got picked up more often than the rest of us. Okay. We hardly got, I mean, quite honestly, we hardly got picked up and actually you spent more time with a woman than you did with us because you used to-- if I’m putting, I’m not sure. Did you fell hard for that or you couldn’t? In other words-JJ: I don’t remember. ADR: You were pussy-whipped. I’m sorry. The women. 11 �JJ: No. Probably that I don’t know, but I-- ADR: Okay. JJ: Because I can’t-- I do remember that I would be with one. ADR: Yeah, then you just like had to be with a woman all the time. JJ: (inaudible) woman had a man. And then when they split up. (inaudible) ADR: I recall, I mean, I really can’t be certain, but even I think at the age of 16, you almost got [00:21:00] married. JJ: I know I went to jail for a stabbing over a woman. I did that. Stabbed somebody over a woman. Yeah, I did that. ADR: But remember the fight. You remind me about the fight, about the stabbing that I wasn’t there. That happened up in the north side. JJ: Same high school. ADR: That had to do with a woman. Right. JJ: And I went to jail for it. Yeah, I did six months. ADR: That had to do with a woman. JJ: They wanted to give me seven years. I was lucky. I got six months. ADR: So that’s what I’m referring to. You fell hard for a woman. JJ: I stabbed a guy by five times or something, I got crazy. I was drunk too. Okay. ADR: Yeah. You were jealous. (inaudible) the rest of us. I mean, I reaction. We were going out with somebody and making out. She went out and made out with another guy. Hey-JJ: I wasn’t the only one that was going around in the neighborhood too. Other people were going through that. 12 �ADR: The thing is, we weren’t, I mean, and in particular, I mean what I learned from those things, and not all of us were [00:22:00] the same way. When I had that situation come up with a woman, I just simply would walk away from her. I would not like, “Hey, do you want to go out?” That’s your business. I’m not. And Orlando did the same thing. So later on he could be persuaded by a woman-falling for a woman. JJ: He did that too. I remember he did that too. He fell in love a lot too. ADR: Yeah, he did. Later on. He did. JJ: Later on, later on. You’re right. ADR: Later on when he did-JJ: So we were dealing with issues, different issues. We were dealing with different issues, including with women and women. ADR: Right. The area, there’s a lot more, I mean, at the moment, and you’re calling is that, I’m not remembering, but obviously in so far as the gang fights. JJ: But what about the Young Lordettes, because I want ’em to get it. ADR: The Young Lordettes. I mean, you’re talking about Lynn-JJ: But there was one group, Lynn and Margaret and Sheila [00:23:00] and Edna. ADR: Sheila, right. JJ: And Vita and all those people. What’s her name? Marta or [Ynez?]-- what other women? What about Little Cha-Cha was involved? ADR: I think what it was, you forget. JJ: A little Cha-Cha too, a Mexican girl from the, because we had a group of Mexican women too. 13 �ADR: Right. But the rest of us, some of the people in the group I here, that’s what we differ. We didn’t make a big deal out of it, but we did differ. I know that Orlando and myself, I can’t speak for you, but we didn’t care, in other words, about the Lordettes. Like I said, because of what we were doing and going to different places, but I know that some people in the gang wanted to have the Lordettes. You were one of those individuals. You pushed for that. You wanted to have them. That wasn’t something the rest of, not [00:24:00] some of us that we wanted, we didn’t to us, because remember, we weren’t going out with them. JJ: We were expanding. I wanted to expand. I wanted always to expand. ADR: As a group we appreciated, and it doesn’t mean we didn’t appreciate ’em. We appreciated them, but with the exception, well, we didn’t have the love interest with them. I mean, for some of us, so to us it was in give or take type situation, whether it matter or not. JJ: Now, were these women, were they mostly into gang banging? ADR: No. Not at all. JJ: Not into gang banging at all, right? ADR: No. JJ: So they were more into parties. ADR: They were more into the dances and things, the socializing activity and that. JJ: That’s important because a lot of people think that they’re gang bangers. They’re into drugs and prostitution and all. None of that. ADR: No, no. With us, [00:25:00] it wasn’t anywhere near anything that had to do with anything like that at all. 14 �JJ: So what did it have to do then? ADR: Just the socializing aspects of the dances, activities that we had and that kind of thing. Obviously on their part-JJ: Because later on that became like a stigma for them. As people got to know more about the Young Lords, they thought that the women, the Young Lordettes were prostitutes or whatever. That’s what they thought, and a lot of ’em shied away. ADR: Why would they, when you’re saying something like that, why would they, again, a question. Why would they? JJ: I’m saying that that could have been, it could have been. I don’t have proof. I don’t have that. ADR: I think remember the Black Eagles, though? I can’t recall whether in effect, even the Black Eagles, the women, and the Black Eagles, here’s the difference between us and the Paragons. In the Paragons and the Black Eagles, the women, [00:26:00] I don’t know if they basically had also, they had in other words, a group of women. JJ: They did. They did. ADR: Okay. The difference between them and us, it is obvious and in fact, that some of those, the women ended up being couples, ended up getting married to each other. I would say that in larger, in other words, more members married their own, in other words, club members in both groups. Both the Paragons and the Eagles. JJ: And the Black Eagles. 15 �ADR: Where we in the Young Lords, I really can’t make any connection. JJ: Well, one or two. There’s one or two. ADR: Because even Angie with Poncho, they came together. JJ: (inaudible) and Mary Gladys-- ADR: Was not part of the group. JJ: That was later. She came later. ADR: Yeah. She was not part of the group at all. JJ: Of the Young Lordettes. ADR: Gladys was, what’s his name? Wayne-- Edwin’s sister. JJ: Yeah. That was later. You’re right. ADR: Yeah. Much [00:27:00] later. They had nothing to do. JJ: But what about Ruben Aviles and (inaudible)? That was later, too? ADR: That was later, too. JJ: Okay. That was later too. ADR: There was no, absolutely no. JJ: I mean, they were both Young Lords, but-- ADR: She became later because he was-JJ: But they got together later. They got married later. ADR: Was not, it’s a gang. JJ: Right? It’s a gang. ADR: None of that existed. Not anybody in the group ever married anybody that was part of the Lordettes. 16 �JJ: Well, I had a girl named Cuba. I had a girlfriend named Cuba. We had some girlfriends, though. We did have-- ADR: As girlfriends, as girlfriends to some of us, yes, but not married. Not in a very lasting way. JJ: And do you remember some of the leaders? I remember there was a girl named Vita Beatrice who some of the leaders of the Young Lordettes, Beatrice, Margaret Trinidad, and [00:28:00] Edie, Manuel Ramos’ sister. ADR: Edie-- that was later. But see, that came later. JJ: But I’m saying those were three leaders of the women. Do you know any other ones? Do you know any other women leaders or no? ADR: The what now? JJ: Those were three leaders of the Young Lordettes. There were a couple Young Lordettes groups. There was one-- ADR: Well, actually, you can’t, you have to correct yourself on that. JJ: Halsted and Armitage. There was-- ADR: You can’t, when we became a party, no, I’m not trying to argue with you. From my perspective, from the point that we became a political organization, that’s when Nita came in. That’s when other women that became, they became prominent, but they became prominent as part of being Young Lords, not become Lordettes. JJ: Okay. Now, they were called Young Lords then, but Edie was the leader of the Young Lordettes for a while, and so was Margaret. ADR: It might’ve been during the period I was in the service. 17 �JJ: Yeah, [00:29:00] no, maybe when you were in the service. ADR: Yeah. JJ: They were leaders in Old Town, Edie and Margaret, and then Beatrice was the leader from Halsted and Dickens. We had a group of Young Lordettes there. ADR: Okay. That would’ve been, like I said, during the period that I was out of the country. JJ: Yeah, I remember I was going out with Yoruba. She was a Young Lordette from Halsted and Armitage. ADR: Well, you reminded me of something too, right now as far as the women. There was one real, I don’t remember her name. She was really good looking Puerto Rican girl, and everybody was after her. JJ: That was Beatrice. I think that was Beatrice. ADR: But she was not a Lordette. JJ: No, she was not a Lordette. ADR: She was more to the right, and I think to the, but her brother was one of the guys [00:30:00] that belonged, actually was part of the Paragons. The reason I’m mentioning this is that the brother ended up committing inadvertently-JJ: Oh, Chino. Chino. ADR: The one, Chino killed himself, right. JJ: His sisters were Paragons. Yeah. His sisters were Paragons. ADR: Right. JJ: Yeah. That’s not who I’m talking about. ADR: No, that’s the one I’m talking about. It was after-- 18 �JJ: He was a Young Lords, and his sisters were Paragons. Okay. ADR: But that’s particular, the one, you making me reminded because at that point he made the stupidity to play in the Russian roulette. That’s how he killed himself. And I remember sitting down one time one night and I thought that was real stupid because, and where I sat down one time when they were playing the game, obviously nothing, nobody got killed when I was there, but I know that he ended up doing it again and he killed himself. JJ: Himself. Yeah. ADR: The bullet and ended up killing himself, which messed up the sister, [00:31:00] and that just came to my mind when we were talking about the thing that I just thought about. But as a group, I, during the era, those things we did, we didn’t know what we were doing, that it was playing those particular roles that were setting us up for certain things that ended up, I think helping as far as our interaction into the political process. JJ: I mean, we trusted each other. How did that happen? How do you think that happened? ADR: I think because we started out at a very young age, so that in doing all the activities, we never second guessed each other and what we did, and even [00:32:00] to that point, it’s like with the challenges that were made to people in the group and how we ended up defending each other. JJ: What kind of challenges? ADR: Well, as I said, again, people, for any number of reasons that came into being, I guess you’d have to look at it. I can think of two ways right now, but also to 19 �involve other, might’ve been more than two, but I’m referring to, which I have mentioned a number of times about people trying to take over the group and we’re not successful because we would come together. And the other one would be as individuals when we would end up having fights. For my part, I can remember one time where we took more, you and me would take more processing to some of the things that we did, and as I recall and I have mentioned is we tended [00:33:00] what we had the title because we negotiated the fighting process that when a gang fight would take place, when we would have sit downs with the opposing inside, and we call ourselves the warlords. In other words, we gave ourselves a title that we would sit down with the enemy to make out how we were going to have to fight. Kind of silly, but we used that word and it was usually tended to fall to you and me when we did those things. JJ: So that meant that there had to be a lot of trust. ADR: Well, I’m getting to that about the trust and things that happened. I remember Santos Guzman, one time I had proposed something that I wanted to do. I remember the recalling Orlando and myself were ones that basically were, if you want to call, started the Young [00:34:00] Lords, they were instrumental in creating what came the Young Lords. Santos wanted to be the leader. I mean, I’m moving kind of fast forward to make-JJ: That’s your perspective, because there was other people that-- ADR: Yes, there were, but I’m refer to in clarifying part seven people originated. Well, I’m not trying to take credit in the way that you’re implying. JJ: I’m saying that’s your perspective in this one. 20 �ADR: No, well, I mean, I’m trying to do this. My perspective, what I would say is that if there hadn’t had been-- hadn’t been an Orlando. JJ: Oh, definitely. ADR: No Young Lords would’ve existed in their self. JJ: Orlando. Orlando founded the gang. ADR: Huh? JJ: Orlando founded the gang, the Young Lords. I mean, Orlando to me is the one that started the Young Lords. That’s the way I look at it. ADR: No. JJ: And then he got us all together, and I agree that you and him. ADR: Me and Orlando were the ones that got together. JJ: You and him did hang around together a lot. You and him did hang around together. ADR: It was me and Orlando, then (inaudible). JJ: But I hung around together with him too. I mean, he lived [00:35:00] right. ADR: If his brother, we put it to this way, there wouldn’t have been any Young Lords. If his brother hadn’t gone into a fight and I hadn’t been there to defend him, that would’ve meant that me and Orlando would’ve never become friends. Now, what would’ve happened, we can speculate all you want, but the creation of the Young Lords, when me and Orlando got together that we needed to have a group of our own. That was our idea. Orlando could tell you the same as much as I’m telling. If me and Orlando had not become friends and sat down, we have to have our own group. 21 �JJ: Me and Orlando were getting ready to fight each other at one point. Me and Orlando, this guy was going to give a watermelon to whoever won to fight between me and Orlando. That’s how me and him met. That’s how I met Orlando. We were supposed to fight over a watermelon. ADR: [00:36:00] Over the what? JJ: This older guy didn’t like me and didn’t like Orlando, and he wanted us fighting, and he said, he offered to buy us a watermelon, whoever won, this was on right there on Dayton and Willow. This is when I first met Orlando. ADR: Orlando was hanging around. JJ: But I’m saying he was like that with different people. He would fight different people and then he would respect them after they fought. So that’s how I’m saying. That’s how me and him met. That doesn’t mean that we decided on the Young Lords then he called me to a meeting. He’s the one that called me. ADR: Well, that’s what I’m trying to tell you. Look. JJ: What I’m saying, Orlando was hanging was a leader and everybody had a relationship with him. ADR: No, you got it wrong. I’m telling you, your interpretation of facts is-- On Freeman, there was a club at the corner, and basically [00:37:00] everybody was considered to be part of that particular club that went and signed in. As I said, Orlando during the, I’m talking referring to the evening, Orlando used to go around the area and the same thing as me. I mean, as far as I remember, and the end there, you were not around in the initial process. I’m talking the initial process before the, we even had the Egyptian Lords before there was any 22 �creation of that. The reason that came about it, it wasn’t like we sat down immediately and decided to do this is what I’m trying to point out to you. What happened was that when I had the fight and Orlando had come over, when he found out about it, he started hanging in the corner. The following day he said we need to have this around. He started hanging around on Fremont because he didn’t live there. We were going to the same school at that point, it wasn’t like, hold on. We had friends, the group of kids, those that lived on Bissell and Freeman, the congregation, [00:38:00] we had a group, a gang we called ourselves the Dayton Boys, you’re forgetting about that. They were the ones that I meant that I talking about where I ended up having a fight with one of ’em was trying to take my bike. The Dayton Boys hung around Dayton and Armitage. That was their corner at that time. JJ: That’s correct. ADR: It was an Italian place that used to-JJ: That’s where he broke his arm. ADR: Right. I’m breaking it down. So they’re over here on that corner where they hung around. The younger kids, we were the younger ones, much younger. They were hanging around at the end of Fremont, and what would be, whatever the name of that side street that led into the tunnel that you would go to go to when we went to Mulligan School in the morning, to the elementary school. But on Bissell, not on Bissell, on Fremont there was that storefront that was considered our (inaudible). There was also a candy store that was typical in that area of having your nickel and dime family owned businesses. [00:39:00] There 23 �were actually two. There were three businesses. The club, another small storefront from a house that was being run by typically older people, and one immediately across from there. We used to have gangs. We used to play with the girls. We always wanted to make out. I mean big (inaudible) as we were growing up and liking girls, you reminded me of something because we always wanted to make out. The big thing with, I mean, it wasn’t like we got the Playboy magazine or we had all these pornography or things that you see today. And you’re forgetting that at that time, I would remind people, girls used to wear scarfs all the time, and I actually started a stupid little game with one of the girls that we liked, the girls who we wanted to kiss, used to have the sleepover sometimes, the pajama parties. Orlando was hanging around at that point after the fight, he was hanging around with me because we knew the same people. It wasn’t because he was hanging around with me, but we were hanging around within the same group. Mineo, Sal Mineo became [00:40:00] kind of drifted into our group. For whatever reason, he was the much older, but he drifted into this particular group. From that was what led into the creation of wanting to have the gang. So that’s what I’m saying. If Orlando and myself had never gotten together, you would not have had, I don’t believe that there would’ve been some kind of a gang, maybe, I don’t know what would’ve happened, but this is what occurred. And we used to have a game that he’ll remind you, I’m going into the gang. I took one of the girls, some of us would kind of pair off into some of the girls, and I still remember her name, Billie May. Okay, Billie May, like I said, they had those guys, and one of the games we used to play around, because either 24 �we used to play the bottle, we roll in the bottle, so we get to kiss the girl, which is a big deal when we were kids. I ended up taking one of the scarfs away from Billie that she had said on her scarf, and she says, I want give it back. I said, yeah, but you got [00:41:00] to have to give me a kiss. So one of those things, she says, okay, and then we started and it became again, all the girls always said, ready. We started playing that game every day that we would go around trying to take the scarfs away from ’em, and then in order to give ’em back, they had to give us a kiss. So it became a game that in a natural process. All of that was what we were getting along. You asked me that. I wasn’t able to answer what I’m talking about, that we didn’t feel that we fit it in, and that’s where somehow because of maybe things that were taking place, we really didn’t felt remember close because the Dayton Boys were the older brothers of some of the individuals that we were hanging around with. I remember one guy named Jack, there’s another one that was the son of the father that owned the, on Armitage and Halsted that owned the hotdog stand. And I remember getting one time because of the curfew getting picked up [00:42:00] and comments that were made where they did took me home saying kids in there, but with the parents that maybe my kid ought to be hanging with somebody else because too many Hispanics are coming in into the neighborhood and that kind of thing. Me and Orlando, not in great detail, we kind of briefly kind of discussed that. We didn’t feel that-- in part because Orlando, you got to remember, you’re forgetting so about Orlando, but two characteristics that we both had and we still have. We were not afraid to fight. We reacted. If somebody challenged us, we jumped on 25 �it. We didn’t think about it. It was second nature to us. We would immediately go into a fight. Maybe you might call us quick tempered, but we had [00:43:00] that characteristic that we would fight back. He didn’t care who it was or how big the guy was. We didn’t allow ourselves to be pushed around. Now, I have to admit, sometimes that’s not good to quickly react in this kind of a situation, but that what led into the idea along with Mineo that we discussed with Sal Mineo that we discussed with him about having our own group. That led to further things. Now how you got involved-JJ: One way was that I had met Orlando before. ADR: You might have, I’m not denying that. JJ: Orlando, Orlando went to my mother’s catechism classes. My mother had catechism classes right in her house, the neighborhood kids, the loco, the crazy ones, would go there to these catechism classes. They were public school kids and she had ’em make their first communion. Orlando was one of those people, [00:44:00] and so I met him there. I met him there at that time. So that’s one. The other thing you mentioned, Mineo. Me and Mineo had been in the same gang at Franklin School over by Cabrini Green, the housing project. I had met him there before he moved more into Lincoln Park. So I had met him there like two or three years before he moved into Lincoln Park. Now you’re telling me he drifted with you guys. I agree, because I think the first fight was the Dayton Street Boys and I wasn’t there for that first fight because Orlando-- ADR: Well, it wasn’t a fight, wasn’t, as I said, nobody was hanging around. We weren’t hanging around together. What happened is that I pointed it out to you, maybe 26 �I’m not explaining correctly. You guys was at school. The fight got started during, in the, probably at lunchtime. JJ: so you guys did have fights because that was still at Saint Teresa’s. ADR: Right. JJ: So I came into, at the end of the day, I came into the Young Lords when they [00:45:00] had the first meeting. ADR: Right. JJ: But I was still-- ADR: But that fight. JJ: But you guys had a couple of fights before I got into it. ADR: Well, what I’m trying to say is that the way the thing occurred, revisiting that particular thing. Lupe, get whatever argument or however it came out to be, it starts at noon, and in order not to get into any trouble with school or anything else, it’s like, we’ll meet after school for the fight. Okay. I know that a fight’s going to take place. Lupe’s going to fight this guy. All right, so then I’m there. JJ: How old were you then? ADR: Ten, 12 years old, or 12, probably 12 years old. Probably 12 years old. So I’m there and there were other (inaudible), the other kids from school, knowing that from the class, I mean, people were asking from the school itself if there’s going to be a fight, but you’re forgetting something that I-- not that you’re forgetting. [00:46:00] I need (inaudible) that, remember Orlando came from a large family of brothers and sisters, actually more on the brother’s side. So Lupe among the boys was the youngest one at that time. I don’t know if the family ended up 27 �having any other boys, but at that point, Lupe was the youngest. Then came Orlando. So Lupe and Orlando, are like one year apart, and then it was Hector. Hector ended up dying a couple of years later of a heart attack. Now, I actually got along better during the period that I ended, because Hector was at school and he was older, I don’t know, maybe two years older. I’m not sure I can recall that. It was probably two years older, or I would’ve to say probably two years older than Orlando. And I actually got along better with him than I did with Orlando. As I said, my initial contact with Orlando is we didn’t get along at all. And maybe, like I said, it’s got something to do with our character [00:47:00] that we were prone to react to each other immediately and not taking it, whatever. So when the fight, as I said, Lupe’s going to have the fight, so we went out there. We were out there. I know Hector came and Hector now, if I’m correctly recalling, and I was already fighting because what happened, Hector showed up. Orlando had not shown up at that point because he didn’t know his brother was going to have a fight that somebody must have ran or something in and said, your brother’s having a fight. So what happened is I said, the guy had either knocked down Lupe, which at that point, or push him or he was losing the fight. At that point, I jumped in. I knew that Lupe was going to get his ass kicked, and I wasn’t going to let that happen. At that point, my reaction, no, not because I wanted him to do this, was my friend. Okay, this was my best buddy and I wasn’t about to let him get his ass kicked. So my reaction was I took it immediately, jumped in and [00:48:00] started hitting the other guy and went on with, we continued to have a-- I ended up beating the crap out of the guy, maybe 28 �because I took him by surprise. I’m not going to try to take credit as a badass or anything because as I said, I did jump in. He wasn’t expecting that. And maybe I have the initial initiative and being able to start hitting him quicker than he could withstand. So I mean, sometimes that happens in the fight, not because we happen to be badasses. It’s just the surprise attack that things occurred. But when Orlando showed up, the fight was over already. And when Orlando’s there, I know that Hector was there, and then he came with Lupe what had happened, Orlando took a different attitude towards me. He came and said, thank you for basically saying, thanks for helping my brother. And it was not no big deal, nothing. No big deal was made out of that or anything other than that. But then the gradualness, remember I don’t know timetable of what happened. [00:49:00] I know that then he started hanging around in the area that I was, and again, not because of me, I think he started hanging around there because in drifting, wherever you claim that he was at, I don’t know, but I know that in the area it was just down the block. When we were in there, he was no more different than I was from my house, from Fremont, which I was closer to. JJ: Where were you living at? What address were you living in? What address were you living in? ADR: Well, the house still stands, I don’t know. I’m forgetting the number right now. JJ: I lived at 1909 Fremont. ADR: Fremont and Armitage, I was probably a quarter. JJ: So where did you live? I lived at 1909 Fremont and 1604 or something, 1600 Dayton. We lived near North Avenue and Dayton. Then we lived near Dayton 29 �and Willow, and then we moved to 1909 Freemont. [00:50:00] And then we went to 2117 Bissell. ADR: Well, on Fremont when I lived. JJ: So where did you live? Where did you live? ADR: I lived over at that time, the period of time we didn’t tend to move around. I was on Fremont, which is a couple of houses down, a red Victorian home. JJ: By Wisconsin? By Wisconsin? ADR: No, near Armitage. JJ: Okay. So that was right there. ADR: Armitage almost closer. JJ: I was half a block down? We were on the same block. ADR: Less than a half a block. Okay, okay. Okay. Orlando was on Bissell. JJ: Bissell, yeah. ADR: Okay. And he was almost all the way down. Almost all the way down. So the distance for him, like me to walk down to the corner, if you said that, this is Wisconsin, that street-JJ: I lived near Wisconsin. I lived near Wisconsin. He lived near Willow-- ADR: Well, the point I’m trying to make is that-JJ: Before that I lived at Dayton and Willow. So we all lived there. We were all from that same area. ADR: But again, what I’m pointing out to you is when we were met [00:51:00] at that age in time, all we did is we would go to that corner. I mean, if I came down from 30 �my house after eating and he would leave this house as I’m eating, and when we came in, the group of people-JJ: I didn’t hang around with Orlando at that time. ADR: I know, I know that. That’s what I’m talking. JJ: I think you were hanging around with him. ADR: Right, we congregated. And what I’m trying to point out to you, we congregated and this-JJ: We were all in the same area. We just-- ADR: You lived, but you guys were not, and as I said, we’re only half block away. We not, well, I’m trying to be more specific because now-- Fermin and Benny. JJ: Where did they live? ADR: They lived, they both lived on Bissell. JJ: They lived on Bissell too? No, on Halsted. ADR: No, no, no, no. Wait a minute, wait a minute. Benny lived on Bissell, closer, almost parallel to me. But he was on Bissell, closer to Armitage on Bissell. JJ: Okay. I know later on they lived on Halsted. ADR: And actually we might’ve been living back to back because he lived in the building. [00:52:00] JJ: So we’re only like a half a block away. ADR: I can pinpoint it. I’m going to say Benny lived on Bissell, it would’ve been the east side of Bissell Street, close to Armitage. I lived on Fremont, but on the west side of Fremont. Again, close to Armitage. JJ: I didn’t even know that. I didn’t know that. 31 �ADR: Fermin, okay, Fermin lived on Clifton. JJ: I thought you always lived near Lakeview in (inaudible). That’s good. I didn’t know that. ADR: So, and Fermin was in Clifton. JJ: Okay. Oh yeah. Fermin was further. ADR: But the friendship that developed between from the very beginning was that Benny and Benny and Fermin hung around together. So all I know is that when we hung around together, Orlando and myself, within the group that I’m talking over here, Benny was not around. Okay. Neither was Fermin. [00:53:00] But we knew each other from school. In other words, the attending classes in there, that’s where we tended to know each other. JJ: David Rivera lived on Fremont. ADR: David Rivera comes much later. JJ: I know, but David Rivera is Orlando’s cousin. ADR: Correct. Well, I mean, might be-JJ: His cousin. ADR: But he comes later. He comes later. JJ: I know, but what I’m saying is these are the Young Lords original founders. ADR: Yes. JJ: And we’re all living in the same area. ADR: Right. He comes in part later on. But the original, in other words, at the very beginning-JJ: You were hanging early with Orlando. You were hanging. 32 �ADR: Before that (inaudible) it was, and he comes later. JJ: Stipulate today, I’ll stipulate today. ADR: Well, the point I’m trying to make, you’re an attorney. So when you’re telling me who started the Young Lords, I mean that’s what we always said. The two guys that started the Young Lords was Orlando. JJ: I won’t stipulate to that completely. ADR: Okay. JJ: I won’t stipulate to that completely. But I say that you hung around with Orlando. I [00:54:00] think that the meeting took place in Arnold’s with the seven founders and I think the Young Lords came (inaudible) at least he’s the one that recruited me. ADR: Well, let me put it this way. You can’t have-JJ: He recruited me. You might’ve been together. But what I’m saying, he recruited me. So I looked at him as the founder. But if you and him were together, that’s fine. That’s fine. I think we were all the original founders. ADR: Wait, I ask you something, see what you’re forgetting. Are we forgetting another individual? JJ: Are you saying that you founded the -- ADR: Who was the first again, who was the first president of the Young Lords? JJ: We said there was the first person because Orlando didn’t want it. I was voting for Orlando, but he didn’t want it. 33 �ADR: So there was never any doubt about Vicentes becoming, let me, I’m going to put you on the spot on this one. I’m going to put you on the spot on. Where did the name the Young Lords evolve from? Who suggested the name? JJ: I [00:55:00] know that we were talking there and there was some group in New York called the Majestic Lords, and then they were also the Vice Lords. ADR: The one that suggested was Vicentes’ cousin and one of the little-JJ: He had come, he had lived in New York. Okay. ADR: He’s the one that suggested. JJ: But am I correct about the Majestic Lords? ADR: Okay. But this is much later. I mean, when I’m setting in the timetable, this takes place later. Not at the point. I’m not going back in there. I’m not-JJ: I wasn’t voting (inaudible). That’s that. I agree with everything. Well, I was agreeing with-- ADR: What I’m trying to tell in here. You can’t have one thing without the other that would’ve ended up producing what it produced. Okay. That’s all I’m trying to point out. Okay. JJ: He was Joey-- ADR: Which (inaudible) which, wait a, hold on. JJ: He was our first president, right? ADR: Wait a minute. JJ: Where did the meeting take place? [00:56:00] Now I ask you. ADR: At the Arnold Upper Grade Center. JJ: That’s where the meeting took place. 34 �ADR: That’s where we had the meeting. So that’s where, not at the YMCA. We did not have no meeting. JJ: Arnold Upper Grade Center is where we selected the name Young Lords. ADR: Yes. JJ: And that’s where we became Young Lords. ADR: Yes. JJ: And that’s where we had the seven original members. ADR: That’s where we had the initial meeting. We had the meeting and all that under. JJ: What date was that? Was that fall, summer? ADR: I can’t, I mean, I know it had to have been warm weather. JJ: Spring probably. Probably the spring. Was it the school or after? ADR: Right. But the point is that that leads to the point that you asked the other question much later. Remember among the group, I’m the only Mexican like, and Guzman, at that time, at the very beginning, no, Vicentes is the leader. We’d chosen him as the leader. JJ: And I think we chose him because looked Italian. But he was-- ADR: [00:57:00] Wait a minute, we chose him. We chose Vicentes as the leader. We then basically, not basically, as we started to grow there were other suggestions. You had made some certain suggestions. I don’t recall what it was. JJ: They didn’t listen to me anyway. ADR: No, no. Listen, wait, had no, you’re forgetting about something that occurred. You weren’t there because as I said you were in another school. JJ: Okay. 35 �ADR: What happened was that I had suggested something at that point, just like the other feelings I had. Remember I’m the Mexican, I didn’t feel, this is like at the beginning because Guzman was-JJ: Were we making a big issue that you were Mexican? ADR: No, no. Let me finish. JJ: You were all gang bangers. ADR: No, no. Let me finish. Let me finish. JJ: Alright. Okay. ADR: I had made a suggestion on something. So Orlando, well, his attitude was, [00:58:00] if that’s what you want, fine. So I had gotten into an [inferment?] at that point he suggested, in other words, in other words, there was some question as to what I wanted. I can’t recall what the issue was. But really what it came down is to the trust that evolved, that ended up evolving from ourselves. So at that point, Orlando didn’t give one way or other, he didn’t give a shit. And he said, well, that’s what you want, whatever. I mean, the attitude that he took in so many ways that responded to it, I felt kind of out place at that point. So really this is when I was going to me, in my mind, I was going to quit. Okay? So the next day in school, Fermin and Benny and then Orlando, he said, you know what? In other words, I think what they did that they talked among themselves and said, if this is what you want, [00:59:00] you’re going to have it. Because it is like, we’re brothers. So Guzman was opposing what I wanted to do. And then he comes back, he was all fucking pissed off because the group, in other words, went against him. And the fact that I was Mexican played a role because he would 36 �say, “He’s a fucking Mexican. I’m Puerto Rican. Why are you guys backing a Mexican?” JJ: Because he came-- ADR: Wait, hold on, I’m not finished. JJ: --he came from Philadelphia. ADR: So then as we were in school, remember Guzman had dropped a grade below. He was actually a year older but because when he came from wherever he came from-JJ: (inaudible) ADR: He did, he then-JJ: But nobody paid attention to him. ADR: --he dropped me. I was in the bathroom and he made a remark to me about, “You’re going to get your fucking way,” whatever. And I walked away from him. I mean fuck it, whatever. And I made the mistake when we were in the, we had come out of the gym and I went into the bathroom and I had [01:00:00] going down to wash my face and motherfucker came, and yeah, on the back, I hit me in the neck and then hit my head. JJ: And you’re still worried about that? ADR: Well, I turned around and I-JJ: You still feel guilty about that? So what? ADR: No, let me finish. So I turned around and started fighting him. So when the teachers walked in, I mean, we were considered to be going into battle. JJ: So you fought him. You fought him. Right. So what. 37 �ADR: What I did is I turned around and I squeezed-- because the only thing I could do was squeeze his fucking balls. JJ: I won’t forget him. ADR: No, you asked the question. You got to finish this. So then no, John had me in a headlock in there, and the teachers walk in and they heard that what had happened. I mean, they come in there and obviously they broke us apart. And then I’m walking around but because he hit me, I hit this outside of, my face was red. (inaudible) Everybody -- (inaudible). So then at that point I’m like, I’m not fucking, because we were going to have a fight. So [01:01:00] then we went out and I mean, it must have been like the whole school (inaudible) going to have it out. So we go across the street into the alley before this is when they turned around and I said, “Fair is fair,” in my mind, the son of a bitch. I guess you don’t want me to swear, but I’m thinking this motherfucker jumping from behind. Right. JJ: He, he stole on you. Right. ADR: So what I did, as he got near me, I kicked him on the balls as hard as I could. JJ: Paralyze him. ADR: And then I went at him and all he could do, because he was (inaudible), he grabbed me and he could hurt me. Man, I’m pounding the shit out of him on the face, because I had my other hand free. And I mean, it was a big, big deal. But he made a technical mistake because in the terms of the (inaudible) as fighters, I was not Orlando. So then he had to live up in [01:02:00] there that Sal almost beat the shit out of you. And he could complain. But the mother-- that I kicked him on the balls because the point is you dropped me from-- you started, you 38 �broke the rule. So there was nothing for me to honor to treat you differently giving you a fair fight. When he jumped me on the back, he broke the rules. JJ: He jumped a Young Lord. ADR: And he gave me the right. JJ: He jumped a Young Lord, which he wasn’t supposed-- ADR: Well, not so much I was a Young Lord but that broke the, that to me was, that solidified our friendship as the original Young Lords that somehow perhaps I think was that we would stick together. No matter what happened to any of us, we would stick for each other because then afterwards, anything that would happen to any of the among ourselves, we always reacted. We reacted to what happened. As soon as, like I said, I can go back. The thing with the Paragons, all I can tell you what I saw and what I knew, what happened that night. I know that I keep emphasizing, took four of the Paragons down. You mentioned [01:03:00] there was another fight. I don’t, I mean not. But I know damn well that night. And he took, knocked down Crazy Johnny twice, knocked him out practically. I’m not saying he put him out unconscious or anything like that, but knocked him down with the punches. The punches took Crazy Johnny down. And just as much as that kind of thing, Santos, his reputation of being the baddest son of a bitch no longer worked. Years later, wait a minute, years later, I had another fight with Santos. Same thing. We were this, when we used to hang around on Armitage, what they call from the song, that restaurant that was owned by a Mexican couple, Sugar Shack. JJ: Oh, the Sugar Shack. Yeah. 39 �ADR: You remember the Sugar Shack? Okay. The Sugar Shack. We were in there. That’s where we crazy-- met Irish. JJ: Where was the Sugar Shack at? Where was the Sugar Shack at? That was more-- ADR: Close to across the street from where the [01:04:00] fire station’s at Larrabee, it would’ve been on Armitage west of, almost immediately west of Larrabee. JJ: Okay, okay. ADR: But again, some other week, whatever it was, I had it out again with Santos. Now, the funny thing about this fight now was, remember by that time we used to have the Cuban with the color Cuban high heel, they have boot that we were wearing at that time. So I go out. At that point it was like, okay, let’s take it outside. The fight got started with an argument I had with Santos, and let’s take it outside. We went outside and started fighting, and this time it was a fist fight. But I remember that in throwing a punch at him, or I ended up, because I was wearing, the shoes that I was wearing wasn’t conductive for a fight. It wasn’t very smart of me. But anyway, the point is that I slipped and I fell, and before Santos could react [01:05:00] to come at me, Orlando jumped in and then took over and it started pounding on Santos. So Santos was forced to fight Orlando because Orlando basically, no, he’s not going to, and he took him out and beat the shit out of Santos. After that, Santos completely drifted away from us because we had totally embarrassed his ass. He had wanted to be, I don’t know what reason they didn’t let him become, because he was maybe too boisterous or whatever. He originally wanted to be part of the Black Eagles. They didn’t let 40 �him. That’s why he became part of us. And he thought, well, I’m going to run the gang because I’m the older guy here and all this and that. It didn’t work. So at the very beginning in the takeover, we would’ve, to give the credit to Santos would’ve been the first person that ever tried to take the Young Lords, control of the Young Lords that didn’t succeed. Then later on, as I said, as we started growing in reputation and things, we talked. JJ: [01:06:00] So you’re saying the original seven kind kept the group together. So the original seven always kept the group together. ADR: Right. JJ: Is that what you’re saying? ADR: I mean, I think that what I’m reflecting on is when you asked the question about the trust. JJ: The trust, right. ADR: Okay. You used the word trust. I’m not sure that that’s the correct, I’m not debating the word. I’m just, we’re using, but I think the trust in there, what brought us together to create that individual-- I’m not arguing the word, the word trust, but I think there might be another word that gave us that cohesiveness, that if anybody challenged that particular group in it. That group was expanded to include Ralph and some of the individuals that became part of, in other words, they became part, in other words, the initial group expanded not by large numbers, but by small numbers expanded beyond the seven. JJ: Right, right, right. 41 �ADR: Okay. In other words, the challenge [01:07:00] though, it can be debated because in talking to Orlando in the future, I mean what happened later on is to how that trust was created. All I can say is that in the years, there were times that Orlando would ask me, I need you here, and I would react. I didn’t have to ask twice, what it was about or what it involved. I simply was there. JJ: That’s what I’m saying. That’s what we did. We did do that with the trust. ADR: Okay. That’s what I mean. I mean, the point is that the thing with New York, not that we were pissed off at you or anything. You were out there and it’s like, Orlando, Sal, you got to stop Andre. JJ: Right. ADR: He said, I got to go. He said, because I was going to go to the meeting, I was going to go there. And he said, no. He said, because he tell me, I don’t examine the exact words, but he says, no, you got to deal with Andre because Andre wants to do something. [01:08:00] And he says, I’ll take the meeting. I says, I’ll deal with what’s got to be dealt over there. But he said, you got to get him out of this mentality. Basically what he told me. So I didn’t debate the issue. I just said, okay, that’s what we need to do. This is how we’re going to handle it. JJ: You’re talking about the split between the Chicago Young Lords and the New York Young Lords. ADR: The what now? JJ: The split between the Chicago Young Lords and the New York Young Lords. Andre wanted to do something. ADR: What do I remember about the split? 42 �JJ: No, no, I’m saying, are you telling-- I’m just saying this is what you’re talking about, right? You’re talking about the split. ADR: Yeah. JJ: And then Andre wanted to do something. ADR: Yes. JJ: Okay. ADR: Exactly. JJ: He didn’t agree with it so he wanted to do something but Orlando and you stopped it. That’s what you’re saying. ADR: Well, what happened was, what actually happened is that Andre had approached Orlando on what he [01:09:00] wanted to do. JJ: Okay. ADR: Okay. Orlando immediately realized that that wasn’t a good idea. JJ: Right because we were respecting, Orlando knew that I was meeting with them and we were respecting, they were our guests. They were Young Lords too. I look at ’em as Young Lords. ADR: Well, there were certain things that we already were-- at the point the thing-- the way it came down, they were already aware of certain things that were taking place, and quite honestly, not all of us. JJ: And that was not a gang fight. We were not gangbanging. ADR: It was not gang fight. Nobody at that point, quite honestly-JJ: We were political. We’re not-- 43 �ADR: It was political, but we were concerned about you giving in to what they wanted to do. Okay? JJ: Right. ADR: So in essence, I can’t find, in other words, we didn’t, I don’t want to use the word trust. I’m being [01:10:00] cordial here. The point is that we were-- there were doubts as to what you were going to do. In other words, we weren’t sure that you were going to act in our best interest. And so the point was, the reason Orlando wanted to make sure he was at the meeting was because he wanted to control you. Make sure that you won’t do anything-- in other words, concede anything or give anything into New York. That was really why he, instead of him, he could have said, I’ll go deal with Andre. You go take in. If he would’ve, in other words, more confidence in what the outcome would’ve been. JJ: He wanted stay in the meeting. ADR: So Orlando wanted to make sure that what you did or what didn’t do with something that, in other words, that you wouldn’t do anything stupid. I mean, that’s not a right word. That’s not right. In other words, we didn’t know-- the reaction is we weren’t sure how you were going to react. Orlando felt he could better deal with you, dealing with you on that issue by being there. That’s the reason nobody’s ever asked, “Why didn’t Orlando [01:11:00] go and deal with Andre?” JJ: All right. ADR: Okay. Andre, I mean, Orlando, was concerned about you, how you were going to deal with that issue. So my job felt that you got to take care of Andre, that he 44 �doesn’t do what he wants to do. Okay? In other words, you got to stop him. Okay? That’s how that occurred that night. JJ: And basically what we agreed is that they were revolutionary compañeros. ADR: Have I agreed to what now? JJ: Basically what I said that they were revolutionary compañeros, that they were our guests and we were not going to attack them. ADR: Well, personally, we didn’t think, me and Orlando, I mean, I have to say, because Orlando, we didn’t think much of New York. We didn’t think much of New York. JJ: Okay. I agree with you. ADR: I mean, the point is you were more, what we saw is an issue, not a problem. That word would be issue. The issue we saw [01:12:00] with you is that you were [nine slaps?]. Okay? Remember, you’re forgetting that Orlando had slapped not once, but had slapped them twice on different occasions, the guy from New York, when he mouthed off to Orlando. JJ: Oh, you’re talking about Yoruba. ADR: Yoruba, exactly. JJ: Okay. Alright. ADR: So we never-JJ: I thought they was angry then. I was out of town when that happened. ADR: The point is, if you would’ve been there, you would’ve criticized. You had a tendency to criticize-- you did it to me-- and you’re (inaudible). In other words, you took the feud-- I’m not criticizing in the sense that, do not understand why that was done. Okay. 45 �JJ: Okay, what view would I have, what view? ADR: Well, your logic was proper, but on the issue involved was impractical. That’s the best way I can, you would’ve said, well, we, Latinos, we should not be fighting each other. We agree with you. I mean, I’m very willing. But when you’re dealing with somebody that’s, in other words, [01:13:00] harming the group, you weren’t willing to take, in other words, be forcible. And the issue of how it had to be dealt with. That’s what I’m saying about, he always wanted to play the nice, nice role. You didn’t take the responsibility for having to do the hard things that ended up getting the results of what the things we needed to do. And that is a criticism that not only me, but I can take Orlando, would have the same criticism that he had about you is that you want always be, you want everybody like to us, it was like you want everybody to like you. And we didn’t agree with you on that particular issue. So Yoruba, Yoruba had challenged a lot. JJ: I’ll agree 60 percent. Sixty-three percent. I’ll agree 60 percent. But that’s your perspective. That’s fine. ADR: Well, Yoruba made the mistake of mouthing off in a bad way to Orlando. And that’s why he told him, in other words, to pay him back. He went and with his open hand, slapped him, [01:14:00] humiliated him and telling him, he says, “You’re not good enough for me to punch you because you’re a fucking pussy.” Basically. JJ: Well, how did this start? I mean, what was it? How did it start? ADR: Well, because remember, the New York guys had this thing that they didn’t even throw it out openly. “We’re the educated ones.” You used to throw out, these 46 �guys are in college and big deal. You know what I mean? The practicality, what I think you were forgetting. JJ: But they had people from the streets too. ADR: Fine. They didn’t have the balls. JJ: No. The people, they had balls themselves. ADR: Okay, fine. They had balls. Okay. JJ: We grew up in a different way than they did. So because of that, we looked at them differently. I mean, we grew up differently than they did because they grew up in New York and we grew up in Chicago, and they looked at us differently too. I [01:15:00] mean, vice versa. And I tried to, even before-- that wasn’t the first time that I was a mediator because even in the gang, I had to be mediator. To me, we were all Young Lords to me, and I’m trying to find a way to keep us as Young Lords. ADR: But you’re forgetting. You’re forgetting. You’re forgetting. Even at that time. JJ: And it wasn’t easy. It wasn’t easy because I was-- ADR: Yeah, but see, what you’re forgetting is that these people did not have for us, some did not have the interest of the organization. JJ: There was individuals, there was individuals within them and individuals within us. The majority of the group wanted to stay together, but there were individuals on both sides that had problems. ADR: That might have been so. JJ: That happens in any organization. 47 �ADR: But see, when they broke away, they proved the point. I mean, the point is what we, I mean from the perspective of, and [01:16:00] again, some of the individuals, and we opposed a particular idea. I mean, believe me, even immediately, we’re finding out that you allowed ’em to keep the name, the younger, your justification was, well become more recognizable name. The rest of us. I can’t speak for everybody, but I can’t speak for number of individuals, we thought you screwed up. JJ: Okay. Speaking for yourself, how did you feel about it? ADR: I think that was a big mistake. And I’m not the only one, but I’m speaking for myself. I thought that was dumb because you gave them, (inaudible) they never had, they did not do-- A lot of the stuff that was done that they took credit for were was done under the Young Lords, it was done by us. The takeovers, the fights, the issues with the police, the other things we had, all of those things, the creation of the programs that we had-- breakfast program, the healthcare, other things we had, we had all these things. And you pissed us. [01:17:00] I’m saying not only myself, but you pissed some of us off. What the hell are you doing letting them keep the goddamn name? They didn’t contribute shit to the name. They didn’t go through the struggle. I mean, you mentioned in of doing the things we done when the police, whenever they would’ve, people getting hurt and getting killed, where were they? How many Young Lords got killed? Okay. And one of our guys, how many times ended up in jail for being Young Lords and got locked up and got shot at? So when you gave the name, we thought, and I said, I’m using the word we because I was not the only one. Okay? We thought you 48 �screwed up. Totally screwed up because you gave them a platform they did not have, that would not have had, if that name would’ve been taken away from them. Okay? That’s what you don’t realize the mistake you made, you created that problem, okay? Inadvertently [01:18:00] you created. You thought you were doing something good that came back to bite your ass because the Young Lords party would’ve never existed. Where they wouldn’t go, where it go. If we would’ve said, no, you can’t use the goddamn name, what are they going to do? Maybe we would’ve forced ’em to become something better, and that would’ve been good, but you didn’t give ’em that opportunity. You allowed them to, they copied everything. I mean, all the great things that what the Young Lords, they were being copied. You allowed that to happen. Nobody. I mean, this is something you have to take that, I mean, as a criticism, that you have to take the blame for that because you’re the one that created that problem, not the rest of us. And honestly, and as a friend, you did a disservice to the people that went to jail. Did a disservice to the people that got shot. Because everything in the paper over the years, what have I been complaining about over the years? I mean, when asked being involved and stuff, I said, I keep (inaudible) this is all fucking bullshit. [01:19:00] Fucking lies that has been written about what happened, how it happened, how it occurred, and you keep telling me it’s going to get straightened out. Where does it getting straightened that New York done that and all this other crap and all so-called experts, they knew about the activity when they never fucking participated in any of the goddamn-- hardcore issues that we had to deal with. All the speakers that I seen and things that go on, 49 �secondary or third meaning come from secondhand information, not from the participants. None of the things that I’ve seen in there were actual participants to say, “Here I did that. I got shot, or I went to jail for this, or this happened over here, or I had to take this guy down because of that.” Where was the guy there that can sit there and do that? None of the actual participants that did the things that were done are ended up participating in this situation. They all talk [01:20:00] about how badasses they were, but nothing -- where the fuck are they? What were they doing? Hiding behind the fucking end of back of the line when we were fighting, who went to the fights that had to be dealt with when somebody got attacked. In the beginning, all of a sudden it was Orlando, myself, Andre, when you say you’re right, I mean, I mentioned because it always comes from (inaudible), but Andre, the rest of us that we were Richie, Popo, some of the other guys, we were the ones that were dealing with the fucking bullshit. Much of what happens in life. They ain’t got the other ones, the speakers. Well, I represent, I do this, I do that, or this is going on, and what the fuck? Where were you motherfucker when you were there, when we needed to, really needed you to do the things that that needed to be had? Why did you coin the word of the rally Young Lords? Where did that come from, Cha-Cha, if not from the fucking fact that the only thing when we were holding a rally, when the party was had, [01:21:00] instead of having the actual participants benefit from the goddamn things that were done. Did they ever benefit from that? Maybe with a lockup in jail? What happened to, I reminded we forget about-- look at Carlos. Look how he ended up, he ended up in goddamn jail doing 20 to life. 50 �JJ: Which Carlos? ADR: Carlos Perez. Did you know he was in jail? JJ: Oh, no, no, no, no. This Carlos? ADR: Andres, no, I mean Raymond’s brother. JJ: Oh, Carlos Montanes. Oh, he’s in jail? ADR: Yeah. JJ: Oh, no, I didn’t know that. ADR: There was some of the other guys that ended up doing time. The point is we’re asking is the kind of end-- I’m juggling in here and not may even making any sense of what I’m saying. JJ: No, no. You’re making sense. ADR: But the point is that this thing-- [01:22:00] JJ: I’m listening to what you’re saying. You’re making sense. Again, I see there’s side two. I see a different side too. But I definitely feel what you’re saying. I mean, you’re making sense. I think you’re correct in a lot of things there. I think a lot of repression, a lot of problems that took place here were not given the recognition that they deserve, that we deserve here, that the people in Chicago deserve. But then again, I think that they were contributing in a different light in New York in a different-- ADR: I’m not a, when you say the contribution--I’m not saying-JJ: I don’t blame the cadre in New York for that, because there was several branches of Young Lords in New York that came together. There was some street people like Pickles that was from the streets that when I went there, he 51 �was complaining that the students are not [01:23:00] listening to what I’m saying. And so I can relate to him from the street because I said, well, you know what they have to listen to you because this is the people’s movement. It’s for people from the streets. But Pickles joined with them. In fact, (inaudible) came out of that, and he was under central committee. So I mean, there was some mistakes made on all parts and people were trying to divide us up, infiltrating, but we also made mistakes too. I mean, like you said, we’re Young Lords. We can’t be slapping other Young Lords. You understand what I’m saying? Do you believe that we should, me and you have argued many, many, many times and we never slapped each other. ADR: Look, it wasn’t-JJ: Have me and you ever slapped each other? ADR: No, I’m trying to make, I’m mentioning that. I think we’ve argued. All right. Was it on the face value? Was it a good thing? No. Okay. [01:24:00] I can agree with that. But at the same time, the question, the follow up question, was it necessary? Answer is yes. All right. Because in certain situations, this is again in the study of the Young Lords. JJ: (inaudible) beat up another human being. ADR: No, no. Lemme make my point. Because as we’re saying in there, when you look at the Young Lords. JJ: We broke out of that. We said, we don’t want to deal with gangbanging stuff. ADR: Right. No, I am getting to that. I mean, what I’m trying to say from here, listen, what I think, what I’m referring to that those particular issues, what point I’m 52 �trying to make out of that is an explanation. When I say in the question of what I’m asking, was it a justifiable thing to do? I mean, was it a good thing? The answer is no. That’s what I said, but there has to be a follow-up question that answers that it was something that was necessary to do. And I say the answer to that is yes. Now I have to explain that. In order to explain that-JJ: [01:25:00] And then he was our guest. ADR: --well, here’s what I’m trying to-- bear with me, and in the moment, you’re making me forget the point that I’m trying to make here. But the thing I’m trying to say is that our group was no different from other groups in terms of what I was referring to. Somebody was to come and actually study us, say why did these things occur as they would find out? I mean, this is what about laying out on the table and those issues is too, in other words, somebody saying, I mean, maybe a hundred years from now when there has been a contradiction on the part of the youngers that in other words, a member slaps another member in that kind of a situation and study. In other words, in other words, when there’ve been studies to why this was done, you’re going to find many groups that these interactions that take place in order for the group to succeed. This is what I’m saying, where it becomes necessary to do the things, or you become too placent, in other words, in certain areas, that makes the strength [01:26:00] of the organization. So what I’m trying to get at, I’m going to make a statement that’s not going to make any sense to you whatsoever, but I want you from time to time to come back and ask myself to explain whether it’s here or any other time into the future. And my statement is this, educated people are stupid people. I want you to keep 53 �that in mind, and I’ll repeat it again. Educated people are stupid people. Because if you look at that and just in life, they’re going to find how the puzzle comes together when you can put that puzzle when you’re looking at things, because it has to do right now with the economy, when I’m referring to that, is all the educated people that came in there, they came in up with all the economists. I mean, if you look at the economy, and I’m not going to get into it, but I’m making, again, it’s an example, an analogy that all troubles of the United States [01:27:00] that we end up having right now is based on what the economists and what they were trying to do and giving us the (inaudible) pictures that existed, obviously. And anybody that’s listening to what I’m saying is going to say, well, this guy’s full of shit. What is he talking about? But what I’m trying to say is that the economists a lot had a lot of fault and giving us the rosy picture, but a system, how it works, not realize it. Because in the end, because they’re educated, you can’t tell ’em. This is what I’m referring to, all the stupidity of the things that the educated people, this is what got us in fucking trouble right now. It wasn’t the average person. I mean, and we’re struggling to get out of this hole we find ourselves in today because they’re too stupid to understand that the middle class, in other words, the average worker needs to make money in order to survive. You’re forgetting, and I’m not asking, I’m going to ask the question, but I’m answering the question. Why the idea of what to have. Why was it that somebody came up with the idea that here in the United States, for example, that in having a welfare system, you had to give money to the [01:28:00] poor person and others didn’t have a job, didn’t have anything. Why was that person given 54 �money? I said, I’m asking the question, but I’m also answering. The reason that the money was given food stamps, in order, and a check, not a lot of money, but a check that was given to them at the end of the month was so they could go and continue to be productive in society by buying goods instead of begging for the damn goods. Because if somebody buys a can of food, that means there’s going to be a factory worker doing that soup, putting it together, the raw material that has to be produced in order to make the can, in order to put the label on it as much as putting the food on it and putting people to work. Because if the poor people keep increasing and they can’t buy anything, they don’t have anything, what’s going to happen? We’re going to become a third rate nation. Well, that’s what I’m referring about smart people being, I mean, educated people. Correct myself, educated people being stupid. What are they doing? Outsourcing all that goddamn jobs out of the country. [01:29:00] Is the Chinese buying our goods? I mean, the Chinese got, I mean, getting philosophical, but the import, it’s over a billion persons in China. They represent basically one third of the world population, Cha-Cha. And you think with all the goods in there that they’re going to be able to, where are we seeing the production when everything’s been sent to be built by these people? Every product, every material, everything that’s being done, labor. That’s why labor put a label. We want to know where the damn product is being made and everything that’s been made in China. But what is China buying? Educated person is going to say, “Hey, China’s buying shitload of stuff from the United States.” You know what? You’re right. But you know you’re an idiot because they’re buying the fucking companies. They’re 55 �buying the goddamn product. What happens in the book, if we go, their cash flow goes back to China, it doesn’t stay here in the United States. They own the companies. [01:30:00] They own the land. They own land in the United States. JJ: The Chinese. ADR: Oh, the goods. Yeah. I mean, I’m not saying they buying whole (inaudible), but they own land. So the buying their goods, the buying is going back to China. I don’t mean to get on China, on China, make some against the Chinese or anything. But the point is the logic of the educated person without going back with the Young Lords. And what I’m referring to correlation here is to me, the educated person was the Young Lords from New York, and they were stupid. JJ: Some were educated. Again. So when I went there-- ADR: Fine. I mean, I make it, I’m generalizing. JJ: You’re generalizing. Okay. And what I’m saying is when I went there and saw the Young Lords in New York, they were just like we were I, they were just like we were, the people in the leadership were, yes, a lot of ’em were [01:31:00] students, but the cadre were just like we were. And we also had students here too. I mean Omar or other people were students. We had students with us. [Victor Chavarria?] was a student, [Marta Chavarria?], (inaudible), (inaudible), all the doctors, the attorneys they were working with. ADR: But the people we had in there rose to their levels. If you’re going to talk about, for example. JJ: My job as the head of the group was to try to keep the group together. I’m coming from my job, which is, and today you’re a union organizer. You organize 56 �unions, and so your job is to keep the union together. So I was doing the same thing at that time. I’m saying, I see that we got a bad problem here. Somebody got slapped and now we’re going to divide a movement [01:32:00] that was for self-determination for Latinos. So I’m looking-ADR: Cha-Cha, they didn’t have, no -JJ: I’m looking at our ideology. I’m looking at our belief system and it is going to be torn apart. And what are we going to do about this? And I have to take a position knowing that I come from this group here, the Young Lords, but at the same time, these other Young Lords are Young Lords too. And so I’m just saying, I’m not saying it was right or wrong. ADR: Trying to justify. JJ: This is oral history. ADR: You’re trying to justify it. Look, the point is New York has nothing without us. New York had never had anything without us. JJ: What you said, explain my part. I’m trying to explain my part. I won’t justify it because this is your-- ADR: Go ahead. Go ahead. JJ: So my position was how can we keep us together? And that’s what I was trying to do. And I know that there was going to be a coup d’état happening and [01:33:00] I had to deal with it. But that was my role at that time. I had to do my role. And I believe that Felipe came here. Felipe Luciano, his role was to defend. They was sending to defend me York, and that’s what he was doing. So I respected him for that. He’s our guest. We don’t want to attack nobody here. 57 �We can’t attack our guests. And plus these are our brothers no matter what. It’s just like when Andre and (inaudible) and Orlando, and who was the other one? Orlando and somebody else. Orlando. ADR: Louie was there. JJ: Orlando was sticking up for Ralph for (inaudible). ADR: Ralph. JJ: And Andre was sticking up for (inaudible). I had to be in the middle. I had to be in the middle then, because I couldn’t allow the group to fall apart. I was just doing my role. I’m just saying. I know you’re angry about it. ADR: Well, the point is, the point of what you’re saying-JJ: I want to explain. ADR: Okay, I understand. [01:34:00] But you bring it up. It has to be answered. I mean, at the point when you’re bringing it up in here. Look, number one is just as much as I’ve learned and you’re forgetting either, well, let me put it to this way. If you see somebody that’s sitting in front of you sharpening a knife, what are you going to do? JJ: I’m going to get me a shield or something quickly. ADR: You were blind. Okay. Evidently you were blind because you didn’t see what the rest of us saw. Okay? You were blind. New York already-- your instincts, your street instincts left you at that point. That the best thing I’m putting it to you, nice. You let your street instincts get the best of you. I mean, I get away from you because you should have known what was going to take place. And it wasn’t difficult for the rest of us to say he fucked up. You forgot, and this is what I’m 58 �saying about the nice-nice, I don’t mean to be [01:35:00] sarcastic or anything in there, in this thing in it. We didn’t need New York. We had the rest of the goddamn nation. We didn’t even have the time to organize other chapters that wanted to be organized. So what was, and again, in the platform now, that’s quarterbacking now, meaning the Monday night, in other words, now reflecting on things that could have taken place, which is not fair. But what I’m trying to say is that then in New York, obviously didn’t take advantage of something they had in their ability to do. They could have taken the other chapters, created other chapters across the nation and overtake us in popularity by, but they didn’t do it because they weren’t smart. Educated, but stupid. I don’t mean to imply that every member that you’re trying to point out to me, I’m talking the leadership and the things in it. Because if I would’ve been there and I got the name the Young Lords party, now I’m going to go to Detroit, I’m going to go to Philadelphia, I’m going to go to Los Angeles, [01:36:00] I’m going to go to Houston, I’m going to go to Dallas. I’m going to go to Louisiana, wherever I can open up different chapters. That’s what the good thing is, that they didn’t take advantage of that. That’s quarterbacking. I mean, not quarterback, whatever. I’m the analogy about I’m going something and it’s not fair. But what I’m trying to point in there that the other side of it, what really took place is now they had (inaudible), but they’re not imaginative individuals to come up with new ideas, to do things. We might not have had the education, but we were not stupid. JJ: We were thinking in different levels. ADR: But look, the thing is then-- 59 �JJ: Because I’m not thinking then at that point, I’m not thinking just that I’m just a Young Lord. I’m thinking that we’re representing a movement of Latinos. ADR: The movement. JJ: But you’re still the only thinking and I respect that, that we’re just Young Lords. And so [01:37:00] these people here want to factionalize and want to being Young Lords. ADR: Cha-Cha, if you’re saying that. JJ: No, I’m just saying-- ADR: Wait a minute, wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. JJ: An issue like that, not saying which is correct-- ADR: You’re forgetting what was happening here in Chicago. I mean, if you were so concerned about the movement, why were you not involved with the issue of when we were dealing with the Latin Eagles, the Latin Kings and the other groups trying to kill each other? JJ: We were dealing with that. We had meetings about it. We had truces and everything like that with the different gangs. We were dealing with that. ADR: May I remind you of something. What did we say we were going to do that never happened. Okay. And I say that because you were one of the proponents at the time in the (inaudible). You made it a point in the earlier parts of the political organization about what had happened in Libya, the country. [01:38:00] JJ: Okay. 60 �ADR: Okay. Do you recall now what I’m referring to? What did Libya do in its independence from the French? What did the Libyans do at the beginning? You remind me. JJ: No, no. Remind me. I don’t know (inaudible). ADR: Okay. They got rid of the drug dealers. They killed them. JJ: Exactly. ADR: Why? What would’ve been the reason for the revolutionaries, of Libyan revolutionaries to kill the drug dealers? JJ: They couldn’t be rehabilitated. They couldn’t be rehabilitated, I am thinking. I don’t know. I don’t remember. ADR: Who’s the, what destroys the community. I mean, I’m asking questions, what I’m trying to say, but I’m going to get to the point. JJ: Okay. ADR: The point was that they did that because that was the one that contributed to the breakdown of the families and everything else because of the drug addiction, [01:39:00] the bad things that come with those particular issues. So they basically told ’em, either straighten yourselves up or something’s going to happen to you. And so they started, obviously they didn’t listen, in order to get rid of that problem or to unite the people, they had to get rid of it. We discussed that. We discussed that in the neighborhood, that we had to go to the drug dealers to stop your fucking bullshit because you’re destroying the neighborhood. Unfortunately, that was one of the threats that we never carried through, and I think for other obvious reasons why that didn’t happen. But the point was that we 61 �did discuss it about doing because of what had happened to Libya. In order to liberate the people, in order to change the mentality, what was taking their unity they created, they needed to deal with a problem. This is where I go back to the point as, and I’m not justifying it. I’m not trying, just trying to justify, I’m just trying to paint the similarities that exists. Yoruba getting slapped-- [01:40:00] The practicability of why that had to be done. So I’m trying to justify what Orlando did. It needed to be done. Just as much as the Libyans did. And I know it’s an extreme example. It’s an extreme example. JJ: Why did it need to be done? ADR: Because you got to remember that New York tended to think-- the impression they gave me. JJ: But Yoruba was not representing all of New York. ADR: It doesn’t matter. JJ: In fact, I didn’t give a damn about New York. I didn’t give a damn about Chicago. ADR: If you gave a damn, why did you allow ’em to keep the name? JJ: I first-- ADR: But why did you allow ’em to keep the name? I mean, I’m asking questions that should have been asked you. JJ: That’s what got us in trouble thinking that here’s Chicago, here’s New York. To me, I’m a Latino first. That’s number one. ADR: But you forgot -- 62 �JJ: We became political. When we became political. We said, we don’t even care about the gang anymore. To us it’s not about a gang. It is about building a movement. ADR: [01:41:00] Nobody at that point, nobody thought of ourselves and we never thought of ourselves. Let’s correct something here. JJ: Because at that time (inaudible). ADR: At that point, there was nothing mentality about the gang, it was you’re (inaudible). I mean, I’m pointing out something to you. Okay? I don’t mean it to be, take it for what it is. At that point, no one thought or none of us within the internal, what other people labeled us, none of us thought of ourselves as a gang in any form, which way or form, when we bridged the gap of becoming political. In other words, that would’ve been and be precise in the date. That would’ve been from the point that when Manuel got killed, that we, in other words, because there’s a story behind how that came about and that particular issue, how that occurred. JJ: Manuel Ramos. ADR: But at the very beginning, and we then nobody thought about it. So your point about this thing got labeled, internally, we never believed, we never applied it to ourselves. We never believed in that. And we had left that long ago, had let that go. [01:42:00] So why are you bringing that up? That had nothing to do. It was taking place on a political process that was taking place that had nothing to do with gang activity. 63 �JJ: That moment it appeared that we were still, even though we gave up the gang, some of our thinking was still there. Would you agree or no? ADR: No, because look, the issue with New York. The issue with New York was the name. Their justification, I mean, if you’re trying to analyze why they came, they were supposedly that they needed to take you back to New York. Okay? They wanted you to go to New York. JJ: I remember that. I remember, okay. ADR: That was the whole thing was about, so why are you bringing this stigma about the-JJ: They wanted me to go to New York and make them the national headquarters. They wanted New York to be the national headquarters. That’s what they wanted. ADR: Exactly. Exactly. JJ: I remember that now. ADR: But I think that’s my point. JJ: But [01:43:00] I think they were being facetious because they knew I was not going to do that. ADR: Well, my point was, and maybe that’s where Orlando, I would ask, why did you but let that particular, because like I said, our concern was you, so I wasn’t there at the meeting. Obviously I was taking care of the other issue. But the point is that, and I couldn’t understand why maybe you blindsided our side without really say, why is New York going to be allowed to keep the name? Okay. And in the aftermath, we just said that. We weren’t thinking what did New York had to in 64 �exchange what was New York or there was nothing. And without, again, I emphasize without the name, if they would’ve been told, look, you guys don’t want it. You want to go ahead, fine. You want to break away from us, fine. But now you’re not going to use the name. [01:44:00] That’s it. So what you should have done, again, it’s not fair to you, but what should have done at that point shouldn’t have let it happen. Is that-- no, we’re going to, well now we’re going to dictate, and you know what? We’re going to replace you guys as leaders. We’re going to send a couple of Young Lords to assess the value and pick other leaders to run the organization. That’s what should have happened. I mean, it’s not fair to you at this point as many years that going back. But what should have been done is it should have been told, okay, this is what you want. Because this is what I’m saying, how we reacted to the-- that’s where you-JJ: No, no, no. I think you have a good point, good point there that we didn’t think it out that well, we should have thought it out better. I’ll accept that feedback. That’s good feedback. We should have been, had we thought it out better, we might have been able to avoid some of this. So that is my responsibility as the head of the group at that time, to I’ll accept that criticism. That’s good criticism. [01:45:00] We should have analyzed the situation a little bit better and knew-because we knew they were coming to meet with us and we should have been able to have some kind of answer to them that they could take back with ’em. And perhaps we wouldn’t have been split up. Perhaps we would’ve been able to work things out. ADR: I mean, if they were to split up-- 65 �JJ: That is my fault. That is my fault, I’ll accept that. ADR: That is your fault. (inaudible) JJ: I accept that. And that created confusion among the Young Lord members in Chicago and New York. So I’ll take that responsibility. But again, my other responsibility was to try to keep us together, not for us, our sake as Young Lords, but for the movement’s sake as Latinos at that time. And that might sound softy. ADR: Stop it-- wait a minute, wait a minute, wait. I’m not going to-JJ: Our job was to build a movement at that time. That’s why we started in Chicago, to build a movement and it spread New York and it spread to other cities. And that’s all I [01:46:00] was trying to do-- ADR: If you were so concerned. JJ: But I’m not justifying, I’m saying-- ADR: No, I’m not saying you’re justifying. JJ: I’ll accept (inaudible). ADR: But look, that should be left at that. Because the point is that if you were concerned about the movement, I’m trying to answer the question. If you were concerned about-JJ: I would’ve analyzed it. ADR: The (inaudible) Patriots. The Panthers, did they dictated policy to us? JJ: No, they didn’t. ADR: So then if they wanted to do something else, would you have been able to stop ’em? JJ: No, they didn’t (inaudible)-- 66 �ADR: How are you going to split the goddamn movement? JJ: No, no, no. I’m saying that we had a movement together in New York and Chicago. ADR: Well, you mentioned the thing that your idea was New York. JJ: New York was for Puerto Rican independence. New York is-- the biggest population of Puerto Ricans is in New York. Chicago is-- ADR: How much full-JJ: -- is Mexican and Puerto Rican. But New York at that time was mainly Puerto Rican, and we were a group here of Mexican [01:47:00] and Puerto Rican, of all Latinos. That’s what we were, that’s the thing. ADR: Okay. Well, you’re opening yourself from my part to criticism for me. Okay. Because your analysis is faulty. JJ: Okay. ADR: You talk about a movement among Hispanics, New York was the least of the goddamn problems because I could ask you what was happening at the other side of the coast. in the west coast, and if you really wanted to talk about keeping a movement together. I’m trying to get to the point in here. JJ: No, I’m talking about the Young Lords. ADR: Exactly. And I’m talking about the Young Lords-- no, what you’re referring to, the movement was the movement, the Young Lords, I mean-JJ: No, no, no. ADR: No. The movement. Alright, stop right there. JJ: We were part of the movement. 67 �ADR: Well, my point is this what I’m trying to say what-JJ: I didn’t want lose all those chapters. ADR: Cha-Cha, if Hispanic movement in order to truly exist and a microscopic already existed with the Young Lords, okay, you’re forgetting [01:48:00] something that, and this is the problem that I’ve always said over all these years in the aftermath of the Young Lords, all right, you’re forgetting (inaudible), how it worked well and you are applying when you talk about it. That’s why I’m criticizing you on this particular issue because you’re forgetting that it wasn’t Puerto Ricans that did it by themselves. They did it with Mexicans and we did it some Cubans and some other nationalities within the Hispanic movement. And right now you’re talking just about the Puerto Ricans. And somehow this is, no, wait a minute. I didn’t say, well, that impression, you’re giving that impression. JJ: I said at that point, no, I didn’t. ADR: Wait a minute. But you’re giving that impression. I said the movement in order to succeed among the Hispanics. We have to have a coalition, which it existed much like that. Mexicans and Puerto Ricans already learned how to lift it, especially in the city here in Illinois works very well. That lesson is not being applied by New York and it ain’t being applied by the goddamn thing, everything that’s written about the Young Lords as being a Puerto Rican group, and you really want to make an impact on the people, [01:49:00] how it started, and name the men who contributed to the movement more than anybody else. I will make this statement. Mexicans and Puerto Ricans in Chicago. Fuck New York because they were all fucking Puerto Rican, we’re fucking in there and then 68 �contributing it. And if you want to make a movement between the people, you got to stop forgetting about the fuck New York. You’ve got to start remembering that the Mexicans had a lot to do with the movement here in Chicago as part of the Young Lords, as a broader picture of what took place. It wasn’t done by the Puerto Ricans by themselves. You’re forgetting that sometimes or not that you do it intentionally. Okay? That’s why in New York, I could give a fuck less about New York. I don’t mean to sound vulgar or start swearing or things like that, but it pisses me off to sit there and somehow this fucking movement of the Young Lords dealt with this issue of fucking Puerto Ricans. Where were the fucking Mexicans [01:50:00] who took the (inaudible) together? We did it together. You want to show the younger youth, you got to show ’em that we have lived, we know how to live together, how to get along together, how to work together. Where the fuck are they going to learn that if you’re not telling them the real story. Your story ain’t about fucking New York. Fuck the Young Lords party. They didn’t do shit. They didn’t contribute a fucking thing to the movement other than the fucking name, the big (inaudible) mouths. What else did they do? Tell me because they were shooting there when I was leading the fucking marches. They weren’t there when I took over the goddamn seminary. They weren’t there when I took over the fucking church and they weren’t there when I was fucking facing the cops, that I was the front person in front of everybody in there ready to take, possibly taking a fucking shot from the fucking cops. They weren’t there. When I went to the Carina alone with other people that were there, I was there by 69 �myself. But when I was there, when I was in front of the line going to the Carina projects [01:51:00] and get into the issues that had to be dealt with. ADR: Those are the things I didn’t do it-- I’m not saying that I was there by myself. I had other people, Puerto Ricans and Mexicans together when we did these things. So where are the Mexicans? I mean are we fucking blind or what? I mean our skin so dark that we’re not there because there’s certainly nothing’s ever mentioned about the contribution of the Mexicans into the Puerto Rican movement. None. Okay, none whatsoever. All these goddamn years, all this stuff in there talking about blah, blah, blah, and I was like, bullshit. Where’s the contribution when somebody said, we have had contribution from the Mexicans, they’re our brothers that have helped us. We’re all together. Where-- give me one statement that it shows anywhere in motherfucking right or neither. Show me one fucking sentence when you got that. JJ: I did make a button that said “Tengo Aztlán, Tengo Aztlán En Mi Corazón.” [01:52:00] I made that button. So I have to differ with you a little bit, but I definitely respect the pride that you have for the Mexican community and definitely for example, Luis Chavez took over the People’s Church. He led the People’s Church (inaudible) with the heads of our clinic, (inaudible) health clinic, Puerto Rican patriot. It was named after the Puerto Rican compatriot, but yet it was Mexicans that were running in the leadership of our clinic, Mexican Young Lords, that were doing that. So I definitely respect, definitely respect that. And you’re correct that we did not give enough attention to the Mexican Young Lords. And I’m not giving a but to New York. One of our main issues though, that 70 �including Mexicans and Puerto Ricans were fighting for at that time [01:53:00] was self-determination for Puerto Rico. ADR: The what now? JJ: The main issue that when we started was self-determination for Puerto Rico. Our first button said, our first button said, “Tengo Puerto Rico En Mi Corazon” and then we made the button “Tengo Aztlán En Mi Corazón” to recognize the contribution of the Mexican people within our group. ADR: But my point, okay, you’re bringing something up. The thing, okay. (inaudible) No, no. I’m point out something of what you said in there that people are not aware. All right? When that was done, and many times during the period when we used to have debates, they lasted all night and (inaudible), and I can remember hours we spent arguing some of these points. You were arguing when the button was being created. Not all of us were sitting there were in agreement about the button, but do you recall what you said? Were you convinced those of us that were Mexican [01:54:00] to go with the idea with the button, the way it was being written the way you wanted? “I got Puerto Rico En Mi Corazon.” How did that come about? JJ: I’m not sure. ADR: You don’t remember? JJ: I don’t remember. I don’t remember. ADR: Okay, as a brother, sometimes critical-- you forget important points of what took place. The argument we were having with you that night is that because those of us that were different nationalities weren’t created by (inaudible). Why are we 71 �doing this? There were issues. The (inaudible) even Puerto Rican siding with some of us that saying, that makes sense. We’re not all, not everybody here is Puerto Rican. We kept arguing the whole night about (inaudible). You kept fighting that we needed to have that blah, blah, blah, whatever. But you made one point that finally convinced when we said we agreed to it, and then sometimes it becomes a regrettable agreement. What I’m trying to say because of the issue that the way I just out spoke and then letting certain things out that you don’t realize the consequences of the way this has been taken. [01:55:00] ADR: The way New York abuses it in terms of the presentation by so-called Puerto Rican movement, that they were not really that goddamn movement. You said to us, “You guys, the Mexicans, the Argentineans, you went to a number, you all have your flags. Y’all have your countries. Puerto Rico’s not a free country. It’s a possession of the United States.” And we realized the (inaudible) because like I said, it was a long discussion that night, an argument, but we realized that we conceded to you that you were right in the sense that if Puerto Rico was to become a free nation, we needed to support that. And that was the idea of why we allowed that we said we got Puerto Rico mi Corazon. That’s how that came about. And whether you did or not, the point the credit, the only credit, the credit I’m giving you is the fact that they made up an accurate report in saying Puerto Rico is not a free country [01:56:00] or otherwise that would not have taken place. ADR: And that’s the same thing I’m taking there, that you’re not giving credit. This is sometimes, quite honestly, sometimes-- I don’t get angry. But I mean, I’m 72 �disappointed in you that all these years things has been said in there that not enough has been mentioned that this thing about much like what you’re doing with New York about saying, well, just looking back about having the name that again, playing nice-nice, you, in other words, you allowed another, a bigger harm to take place and you don’t see the consequences of that. The consequence I’m pointing out to you, if I’m going to go sell a point of why the unity between the not here in Chicago so much in Chicago, Chicago is different than probably than New York and other places because here the unity of among Hispanics is probably much stronger than any other part of the country. But if I’m going to go to New York or other places where you got a mix or Florida Cubans and Mexicans and which are minority [01:57:00] over there, the Cubans, the Puerto Ricans and numbers in there, my point to them in there, in order to sell ’em in there, take a look at what this group did. They did it with different nationalities, but how am I going to sell something when everybody, every time they read it, well, the Young Lords were fucking Puerto Rican. How did they allow Mexican to get in there? Don’t you think I’m going to hear something like that being said? I didn’t know fucking-- where do you get that? The Mexicans started to help start the gang of the young roots. They were a fucking Puerto Rican group. They were a Puerto Rican gang. They don’t know the truth. They don’t know what took place. Why? Because you got people lying. Perpetrating lies about the movement. You got second sources trying to speak for the first sources. That’s a harm Cha-Cha, a big one. You want to get people on your side. You want to impact the youth. This is what I refer when I’m talking [01:58:00] about the truth. 73 �The truth speaks for itself. I’m not going to say we were perfect, that we were goddamn saints. But what they’ll see, what I mention is that the unity that existed, the trust, you talked about all these things, this is why the (inaudible) gets put together, the trust we had with each other that we didn’t second guess with each other didn’t matter that you were goddamn Puerto Rican and I’m goddamn Mexican. If Sal said he wanted to do that, well fucking do it. He knows what he’s doing. Or if Cha-Cha said something, do it. What I’m trying to say in that trust, that’s how we build. You talked about the trust. The trust came from the ability to trust each other unconditionally because we didn’t feel that we were going to get stabbed in the back or anything. I don’t have to worry that you were going to be doing or anything like that. That’s if you want to teach, educate, this is what I’m referring. Everything else is-- that’s all fucking bullshit. I mean, Carlos can hear me and I would say it to his face, fucking, [01:59:00] what are you talking to an expert on the Young Lords? You didn’t know shit. You were a fucking rally Young Lord and almost all the other goddamn speakers there, they were all rally Young Lords. They weren’t there participating, doing any of the heavy work that needed to be done, negotiating the things that, all the different things we did, contributions. I mean, it wasn’t just me and seven people or seven people and me. It was a contribution of the community. Remember you asked me to give a perspective. So I’m unfortunately, I find myself using the word I perhaps too much. Alright? But you’re asking about what there is, where I fit and how these issues came to be, but it was a contribution of different, it just Mexican and Puerto Ricans. We had whites helping us. They were part of the 74 �Young Lords. With the women that participated and did the damn things. We even had Blacks in our organization. Where is that Cha-Cha? Where is that being? [02:00:00] Where does it show up? How you want to impact a Black to say you need to be part of the movement or you need to vote for me or you need to help me out when you’re talking about the Young Lords, and then they say the fucking Young Lords are Puerto Rican, what do I got to do with the Puerto Ricans? How do you impact the woman that you’re trying to bring her into the group? Well, what do I want to do with a bunch of fucking Puerto Rican male children, as fucking pigs, right? JJ: They agree on that. They agree. ADR: You understand what I’m saying? I don’t mean to maybe I’m going to the extreme of criticizing you, but the thing is, this is the failure that what I all these-JJ: You’re making good points. You heard me, right? ADR: Okay, so the movements that we’re going to move will come back in there if we don’t correct. This is what of all these years, but I’ve been trying to refer to you what needed to be done. [02:01:00] Okay? You just never really wanted-perhaps you didn’t want to listen to me. I don’t take it in a, but all these things. This is what I referred about telling the truth, putting the facts on the table. Because if people look at what was done and how that came to be, it’s not the bad they’re going to look at. They’re going to look at the cohesiveness, the trust, the things that made the things work. We learned from the women. (audio cuts out) Perfect. Take one. I can recall without hearing again, the occurrence, they had to set us down and said, you guys are fucking up. A couple of times that 75 �they in there. You guys are doing this. You’re not supposed to be doing it. I mean, even on the women, they rolled up and stood up to us saying, we don’t like the way you guys are going. Remember that? They had the guts to tell us off and we listened. And sometimes the males would being males, maybe some of us smirked at them, [02:02:00] but we had to listen and we had to listen to what they had to tell us, and obviously they might’ve been a part because of the greater movement with the woman’s movement that was coming into existence. But-- and because of that, more than likely they realized that, wait a minute, these guys are treating us like shit. We got to change them. How are you going to reach people? I mean, when you talk about the movement, that’s when I heard you say this thing about I didn’t want to split the movement. You bewildered the shit out of me. How the fuck are you talking about movement when you’re talking-- well, nobody’s, maybe nobody’s going to fucking listen to you if you keep talking about a group and correlate to what exists that nobody else has any interest unless you happen to be a Puerto Rican that, in other words, other than that, nobody, believe me, nobody’s going to want to listen to you because it doesn’t connect. It doesn’t-- you know this is what I’m saying about reaching the audience, reaching the-- [02:03:00] The thing is, I mean, there’s a lot to be thought from what happened and it just not because we, some were super-duper or whatever this, yes, we were lucky. It is like sometimes somebody winning the lottery or we were in a certain time and place. We reacted in a certain way. We didn’t plan it. The events that occurred in the way they occurred just sort of fitted in place and that was it. Now we can take it to the 76 �other level, use that as a vehicle to help organize a larger movement and in other words, to the Hispanic populations that continue to increase in the United States, and make it useful. Like voters. Why do we want to have, when the Hispanics don’t want to vote right now for many number of reasons, but they can study us. Here’s why you should vote. Here’s what can’t be accomplished when people get together. [02:04:00] Now, we might just be one example out of many, but still one example is one more that didn’t exist. And other things in terms of organizing and things that occur, that has to be the lessons that learned that I talked about yesterday. The things that we learned. I mean, I looked at perspective from my point dealing with the YMCA, how they did things, and I think they had enough brains to see that ain’t working and I know why it ain’t working. I got a better way of doing it. Doesn’t make me super smart or anything else. It’s just that I was lucky enough to see it differently and then apply that to something else. Then I go back to the statement, educated people are stupid people. I know some people that are listening to what I’m saying may not make no goddamn sense at all, but if they really think right higher, they know what I’m talking about. [02:04:59] As far as the Young Lords, all of us, not all of us, that stand corrected, quite a few of us became successful. I like to think that I became successful, but there wasn’t just being by myself. There were other guys that went on to do a lot more things in life and contributing not only to society. JJ: How were you successful? How were you successful? 77 �ADR: Well, if you take a look at who we were, it’s like saying how many heartbeats away was I away from being in jail? To that add the only individual that I can kind thank again comes to Orlando and I need to explain something about Orlando, why in the later years, I became more as a friend, more endeared. Not that I, sometimes it’s been years that sometimes that I don’t go beyond seeing him. [02:06:00] And then the things that we haven’t discussed that had to deal with the issues like with drugs. It was part of the movement of those things that happened. I think Orlando, me personally, saved me from becoming in any way, becoming in any way addicted to drugs, and I got him to thank for that because he put it in a perspective in such a way that it made me think that I could never do that. And I got him to thank. As a friend, when I came back from Vietnam at the end of 1968 as far as the Young Lords, to me, it was a non-existent thing. I mean, it is not like I came, “Hey guys, I’m back.” I didn’t do that. Interestingly enough, Orlando knew I was coming out because he would ask my sister from time to time when is Sal coming back. So as soon as when he knew when I was coming back, he came to see me. [02:07:00] Out of all the guys, Orlando was the-- he came and said, how you doing? And I went out and we started hanging out together, which kind of surprised me because it was the least thing I expected was for him to come looking for me. So then we started hanging out together. I remember seeing you, not under the best of circumstances when you were living in Wrightwood with an Hispanic girl, but that was not under the best circumstances. JJ: Meaning what? I was using drugs at that time? 78 �ADR: Yes. Kind of shook me, shocked me. I wasn’t expecting that at all. You’re in a goddamn suit, the whole bit and-JJ: High as a kite. ADR: Huh? JJ: And high as a kite. In a suit, but high as a kite. [02:08:00] But while you were gone, there was a drug epidemic in the neighborhood. ADR: The what now? JJ: While you were gone in Vietnam, there was a drug epidemic in the neighborhood. The country was hippies, the country was hippies, and we were following that. ADR: Well, there might’ve been a drug epidemic in the area and (inaudible) but not as big as what came later. JJ: Oh yeah. It came later. Later it what, got worse? Yeah, got worse. ADR: I mean, in your time-JJ: Because later it spreads more to minority groups, so-called minorities. ADR: The time you’re talking with-JJ: First it was the hippie movement, and then some of us got into that hippie movement, but then it spread to the barrios. ADR: Remember, Gorilla? Gorilla was a Paragons. JJ: Okay. Right. I remember. Oh yeah, I know who you’re talking about. ADR: What I remember, because as I said, I wasn’t [02:09:00] getting-- my recollection of when I had come back, there were very few people, and I don’t know how 79 �much usage you were doing. I mean, as compared to what happened later. What I’m saying is in comparison to when I first got back. JJ: I became addicted, I became addicted. ADR: To me, it seems like you were. JJ: I was addicted. I was on the corner every day. ADR: Okay. I mean, I don’t know about that. I mean-JJ: One day I was in a suit and tie and the next day I was like a bum. So I mean, I was addicted. ADR: Okay. The thing was that there weren’t that many people that were addicted at the time when I came back. JJ: Right. ADR: But you were in the minority, you guys were in the minority. I’m mentioning Gorilla because Gorilla was the one that one of the suppliers at the time. And as I said, when Orlando came back, I had come back and hanging around, [02:10:00] being single and what have you not, I used to go down to Rush Street a lot, and sometimes with Orlando and things like that. We ran into Gorilla one time and were knowing each other and everything else, I was kind of surprised to see him down on Rush Street. But I quickly caught onto why he was down on Rush Street. Obviously sell some of his wares that he had. But he wasn’t the kind of guy at that point that-- even then he was not a user. He was in the business. He was making money. He always had money in his pocket, obviously from the sales. But what I recall in that area, the particular area that started happening is that the group at the very beginning, when I’m saying I’m 80 �coming back, the issue of drugs [02:11:00] was not something that was heavily within our group at all. You were the exception and you kept that under control. But as time passed, the gradualness of the individual is like the guys we all knew who was doing drugs. It wasn’t hard to figure out, it wasn’t a secret or anything, but the group was in a minority and it started to increase as time passed. So if there were two, three guys doing it, we knew what they were doing. And this is one of the reasons that we had discussed, but what we were going, the Young Lords came into being and the political aspects of it. In other words, the political aspects of the Young Lords came into being, the discussion of the drug dealing came into focus, but nothing was really ever done along the lines of what the discussions that have been had about that. But the group started increasing [02:12:00] in numbers. In other words, people doing the drugs became increasing to the point that they became the majority rather than the minority within certain given time. That happened in other neighborhoods. The, go ahead. If you’re going to-JJ: Go ahead. Go ahead. ADR: So the issue of the drugs and that particular issue, the epidemic for me, the way my perspective came much later, the epidemic, that a neighborhood that basically had a minority of drug users, the neighborhood changed to completely of having a majority of drug use. A lot of guys will deny, I mean, I’m not the only exception you got, Fermin never did drugs, myself. Maybe there’s a couple of other guys. I can’t think right off the camera, but we were really the minority. We never did any drugs because everybody else did. [02:13:00] And for us, it was 81 �the transition. When we used to go down to Rush Street and there’d be five, six of us going down to Rush Street and every weekend, and then maybe once with Ralph and once in a while the guys all were doing is getting high once a month, but then once a month became once a week, and then once a week it became every day. Okay. I mean, that was the effect. JJ: Everybody would say it was just once a month. Yeah. ADR: Right. So that issue, I mean, I think the thing with drugs, it was something that we-JJ: Well, the good thing about Fermin and (inaudible) and people like that, the reason they didn’t get into drugs was they were the sports. We had teams, sports teams. Remember you mentioned about the YMCA. So they played basketball, they played softball, and they were very good at it. [02:14:01] I mean, I got good at it too sometimes, but I didn’t stay with it. But they stayed with it. They were athletic and they represented the Young Lords, and we won a lot of games. So we had our own basketball teams, our own baseball teams and everything else. But I was in the boxing team I remember. I did win a trophy one day, but even though everybody booed me because I was kicking the guy after he was (inaudible). But at least we, but see, but what I’m saying is we were in tournaments as Young Lords because the YMCA was trying to get us out of the gang. And like you said, that was a mistake because-- ADR: But you’re talking about the time also. JJ: That’s why he didn’t get into drugs. That’s why Fermin and then never get into hard drugs. 82 �ADR: And Benny didn’t do it until much later on. JJ: No, he did it later. He did it later. Yeah. ADR: Huh? JJ: He did it later. ADR: Right. [02:15:00] That’s what I’m (inaudible). JJ: Yeah. ADR: He did it when we became political that he got drunk. That’s what I was referring to earlier. The process of when the majority became into drug addiction was during the political process that took place with the Young Lords. But prior to that, it was basically non-existence. I don’t say if you can call it success, but obviously for me, I referred to it in my own mentality, I had sort of a triangle, meaning that I had a daytime job, which I applied myself because I had a family from the very beginning. I, having gotten married almost immediately after coming out of the service. And in the process, I went back to school, along with Louie. Louie was the one-- this issue. I don’t take credit for certain things. Louie convinced me to go back to school, college. [02:16:00] I really hadn’t thought about doing that. And then part of that, because I originally coming out of the service, as I said, I was leaving everything behind with exception when Orlando, as I said, came around and brought me back into the group. Because of my hearing problem that I started developing, when I left the service that I realized that I had a hearing problem and the disability was recognized by the immediate, because it happened right after I left the service. I discovered that I had the problem, a hearing problem at that point was because I wanted to become a 83 �pilot, I mean a commercial pilot, but not flying the big planes, the smaller planes. And I was going to go to school for that, and I had to leave it because of my hearing. So I felt like I was going to sort of quagmire as to what I wanted to do for the rest of my life. And at that point, I really didn’t know what I wanted to do. [02:17:00] Then the issue of the Young Lords started coming into play and the political processes that things were evolving. So there were a couple of years where I didn’t know what I wanted to do. I was young enough to realize I got enough time to plan my future. I just wanted to kind of settle in. So the bottom line is that Louie convinced me and said, you need figure out when you go back to school. Because my plan was if I’m going back to school, use the GI Bill, I want to make sure what I’m going to and how to, what am I going to use it? But he said, leave that alone. Don’t worry about it. Get back and you got four years to figure out what you want to do. He convinced me to go back to school, and in doing so, I started taking courses that I felt comfortable with. I’ve always loved reading, and I always had an interest in law. So I started taking criminal courses and for work, work-wise [02:18:00] engineering courses to enhance my position as an operator. So the years started to roll by more quickly, and I found school to become very easily. So I ended up going, attending junior college, got my two year degree. Then I transferred to Northeastern and got my, and I actually I, which is kind of surprised me because I was a lousy student, I really wasn’t a lousy student at all. But I ended up graduating with honors from Northeastern. I got my degree and I graduated with honors, and I also started studying law. Then quickly, moving up, I got accepted into law school, but I got sideswiped. I 84 �use the word sideswiped because, and I got into organizing it with the union. We had a change of power and I was asked-JJ: What union, what union? ADR: That’s the Operating [02:19:00] Engineers with Local 150. But the point was-JJ: Also part of the Latin American-- ADR: Right. But I’m trying to say about the triangle. The education, the radical movement and the conservative movement that exists within the construction industry gave me a different perspective of how I viewed things. I had the knowledge of radicalism, firsthand, conservative, working with the mentality, the conservative movement. So not that the construction workers are conservative, but I mean, in other words, a completely contrast mentality of how things are viewed, the political process and everything else, how the system works that comes from the construction industry. But there’s a lot to learn, really because they can educate you in a lot of different things and not just about being a worker or an operator [02:20:00] or a carpenter or an electrician. It’s a society of workers that do things to benefit their own groups and do things that, in other words, to enhance their positions and workplace and things that come with that. And obviously then the other one, what I got from education. The numbers, the statistics, the studies of different groups and all these other things, that all kind of helped me see things in perspective and making me realize what the Young Lords have represented. Some of the things that you’re hearing me talk of what I said, why things and how the American system really works. And sometimes I say things and I realize at the moment that I don’t always explain that it needs to 85 �be explained. And sometimes I’m guilty of explaining too much, and at other times, I’m also guilty of not explaining everything enough of what I’m talking about. But what I’m trying to [02:21:00] say is that the system within the movement is the certain amount of not, realistic, not where it would be. In looking at the movement, I realized that the movement made a lot of mistakes that didn’t live up to what the way things should have been brought. They were blind. Because I think that’s why I always looked at, I mean, in reaching something, a decision or a conclusion, the best way to do it is to see all the options that are on the table. Law school teaches you that, okay. It teaches you to see different views so that you can come to a conclusion to a certain (inaudible). It’s ideal. It doesn’t always work sometimes, but that’s the essence of looking at things. So for me, looking at things over the years, I think it helped me become a good organizer business agent with the local. It made me, [02:22:00] one thing, one of the rules I learned, I call it a rule like certain things, is that I always kept in mind is that not to be judgmental, okay? Because you have to, in representing people or organizing, you can’t be a judge. I mean, you can’t be taking sides and things. You have to listen to what people are saying from both sides in order to help you reach a conclusion as to how to solve a particular issue, or sometimes you have to hear from more than one point of view or two different points of view or three different points of view, what I’m referring to. Other things helped me evolve. And obviously-JJ: So the Young Lords helped you get into the union, the Young Lords helped you go forward with the union, is that what you’re saying? 86 �ADR: Yeah. It helped me because in organizing, there were certain things that-- labor movements organization abilities are [02:23:00] where I can say they’re great (inaudible). But again, the issues with the Young Lords is the ability to, there’s correlations, what I’m trying to say with what happened with the Young Lords just as much with other groups or things in the labor movement, it is really, there’s a lot of things that are related to each other. And to me, it’s like reading a history book and it’s not learning about that history when you got, in other words, there’s particular saying that you don’t have to jump off the roof, in other words, to feel how it hurt you. And that’s what I’m referring to in history, that there are certain number of things that, in other words, the same being is that if you can’t learn from history, you’re [02:24:00] bound to repeat the same mistakes. I agree with that. JJ: How long have you been a union organizer? How many years? ADR: Actually with our local, from the point we come in, we carry a two title that’s being business agent/organizer. So how the whole time for me, I would’ve to say the whole time, more than 20 years that I was a business agent. Business agent/organizer. JJ: Okay. So you’ve been working with the union more than 20 years now, and it helped you with the Young Lords. ADR: Right, because it would’ve been in 1980. JJ: Yeah. ADR: Yeah. JJ: Okay. 87 �ADR: More than 20 years. JJ: And you also worked in the, I know we only get a few more minutes. You worked all the way with the Young Lords, even with the Harold Washington campaign? ADR: Right. That was another thing that we never discussed, but that needs to be discussed as to how the political process that came that we haven’t really discussed [02:25:00] those political, this is the aftermath of the Young Lords, because the only thing I would say, we might want do some more interview on this. I’m the one, and not for anything that I’m trying to take, not the point of trying to take credit, having learned that the experience that we have had, I’m the one that approached Omar because I was working from the union. I was a worker back then-- I wasn’t. We were helping Jane Byrne on her reelection campaign, knowing what previously from the Young Lords experiences of the Young Lords, I had the idea. I knew that all Omar was working for [Callie?], I knew that you were working for Washington and some of the other people. So I went to Omar and I said, why don’t we get in touch with all the interest at different parties that belong to different organizations and let’s have a talk. And I told him my idea. JJ: So then the Young Lords were working in different campaigns? ADR: [02:26:00] Yes. JJ: Okay. But I was working with Washington. ADR: You were with Washington. Omar was with Callie. I was with Jane Byrne and with some other people. Not only, but when I told Omar, I said, I don’t want to restrict it. 88 �JJ: We were not in existence as-- ADR: Exactly. And my point to, right, but my point to Omar was, I don’t want to just deal with, so get as many people as we can that are working for the different candidates. Let’s bring ’em together. I said I want to have a meeting and I told ’em what I wanted to do. I said, well, my idea is that whoever wins the, because I knew whoever wins the primaries was the next mayor from the Democratic side, and that was the deal that we had agreed. When we sat down in there, that’s what, whether Omar said it or that was done, I was the one that came up with it. Our position is that whoever wins the primary, the rest of us have to join up with that group [02:27:00] and help ’em in order to enhance the positions, the capabilities of what we’re going to go with this. In this instance, your candidate won. That’s where we went and said, okay, I want to work with you now. That’s how in the aftermath of the political process, we came to Washington. At that time, I was already in law school. I was attending already law school. And so we (inaudible), and that’s how we went to the point of enhancing the positions and other things that came with that, which you mentioned about, I think. But the task force, as I recall, not for any other reason, I can’t think of the guys. He was married to, a Jewish woman at -JJ: You’re saying the Latino Task Force, that that was created, we created that. We created basically with other groups, with other coalitions. ADR: The idea came from, as I call it, was from that name, B-- god, it starts with a b, I believe, [02:28:00] the congressman from New York that came to help Washington. 89 �JJ: (inaudible) me and you took him around. ADR: He was good. JJ: Me and you took him around. ADR: He knew his shit. Lemme tell you something. JJ: He gave us an idea of setting up. ADR: Exactly. Exactly. With subpoena powers. JJ: Latino task force with subpoena powers. And then we took that to our members, to our group that we were working with Washington at that time, Harold Washington, and then Harold Washington agreed with us. And we got together with other groups and formed that coalition. ADR: Which obviously had to do. JJ: Still exists today. DA still has it. It still exists today, right? Under Mary. It doesn’t exist anymore. ADR: (shakes head no) Daley killed it. JJ: Oh, Daley killed it. Daley, Junior killed it. I told you about that guy. You can’t support that guy. Okay. ADR: [02:29:00] Well, the point, the thing was-JJ: Let’s wrap it up, let’s wrap it up. ADR: The point of all that isn’t that no one was really listening to, and I said this earlier, or if I didn’t, by then, what I’m trying to say is that really listening to what is being said, they’re here, but they’re really not listening to what’s being said. But then you in creating the task force emphasized the fact that we had to have subpoena powers. Okay. Which then happened because, and again, I blame, I’m not 90 �blaming you on that particular level, and I’m trying to say, but some of the other people that had the education that, oh, we can’t, I fought you to the point, because you didn’t want to embarrass Washington. When Washington himself had told us sitting down and you’re not hearing what the guy’s saying. You got to give him an excuse he needs an excuse to justify what he’s going to give us. Because if you just goes around and said, I’m going to create, in other words, he would’ve gone [02:30:00] on the floor and said, tomorrow I’m going to create a Latino task force that has subpoena power. All this goddamn members say, what the fuck is wrong with you? Okay, let it go. We can do another interview. I mean, my point on that, what I’m trying to say, he was saying, in other words, justify, go out and protest. I mean, I was mention, I can’t remember the guy’s name that came in there. He sits there protesting in front of the goddamn city hall and oh man, man can be, everybody’s bitching. Oh, he can’t be doing that. He’s embarrassing the Hispanics, because they’re protesting in Washington. We help Washington. What did Washington do then? Help him one goddamn bit, didn’t do shit for Washington. We all know that. Washington says you guys got to put him in the tax force. Remember that? He sat on the original task force. So my point is that, okay, (inaudible) well, what I’m saying is what I said that Washington, they had to tell us. The rest of them were in there. [02:31:00] Why are you putting that guy in there? Because he’s out there protesting. I got to put him in a goddamn thing, now me to stop them doing this, I had to put ’em in a taxi. 91 �JJ: Okay, now we’re going to start talking about you’re in the service now, right? So are you in the army, navy, or what? ADR: The Army. JJ: And where were you stationed there? ADR: What now? JJ: Where did you go to? Where were you stationed? ADR: Well, one thing before we get into the Army that we were mentioning about the fights, the gang fights, the major fights that was never mentioned. Make me think you’re forgetting. We fought against 18th Street and you’re forgetting it was Mama’s group that we fought against and we had gang fights with them. JJ: Oh, oh, with Mama Velasquez? ADR: Yeah. JJ: Oh, Arturo Velasquez, who ran for Alderman later? ADR: Not Arturo. Yeah. JJ: He ran for Alderman later. ADR: [02:32:00] Yeah. JJ: What in the hell-- ADR: We fought against him. JJ: What was the name of their group? ADR: I don’t remember. JJ: Did you fight against him at that time? That’s how we met each other. ADR: No, we fought against them. JJ: And what was that fight? What was the reasoning for that fight? 92 �ADR: Those are fights that we used to come in when, as I said before, sometimes we were asked to become as an alliance to another group when they were fighting a fight. That was one of where alliances were made, we’re fighting. We fought against their group. There are other ones, I mean, I’m sure they’re going to come to me, but there were other, in that end of the years, there were other, a lot more fights. Typically, we had fights almost, I’m not saying exactly, but almost on a daily basis. That was unique to ourselves. Not to the Paragons, not to the Latin Eagles, I mean the Black Eagles. We were unique in that. [02:33:00] And we ventured one of the things in this many times in there that we were mobile, we weren’t, other than probably the longest period of time, was that we stayed in one particular place would’ve been Old Town. But we tended to be mobile during those years. And one of the things that really in expanding the group, but how we operated was the fact that what I mentioned earlier, that we were not always together as a group. I mean, people didn’t realize it was a cohesive group that existed within the Young Lords. So as I said, if you take a look at the [Division Pete?], you look at it. What’s his name? Oh God, I’m forgetting his name. [02:34:00] Her husband that got killed. I tend to forget names. JJ: Angie? ADR: Who? JJ: Angie or --? ADR: Angie’s husband? JJ: Poncho. Poncho. ADR: Poncho. Tried to challenge us. Got his ass kicked. 93 �JJ: What do you mean he tried to challenge? What do you mean because he was-- ADR: Pancho tried to take over the group. JJ: Okay. What do you mean he tried to take over? You mentioned that a couple of people tried to take over the group. ADR: You had, as I said, Division Pete, Poncho. Almost every guy that came into the group, they brought in a couple of guys. There were other guys that wanted to become leaders. Now, we didn’t know that immediately. I mean, if things would come up in there that it would become apparent, as I stated before, when we would’ve meetings that who was going to be the next president or that wanted to be somebody else, a president that came into place. So what I’m trying to tell you that, for example, when Division Pete, [02:35:00] he did it along with a couple, it wasn’t just by himself. He was doing with a couple of other guys from the area Old Town, because as I said, they didn’t see us all together. I know that when we had the meeting, and often the case, the one that was our in trying to describe, I have to go back to Orlando. He was like the gladiator. He was always the one that would take him on. They ended up kicking Division Pete’s ass when he had made the challenge and fighting him. And like I said, there were other people. You were asking about fights. I remember one time with Orlando when as many fights that might seem-JJ: There was always a struggle within the Young Lords of different people that wanted to take the leadership role. ADR: And Orlando was always at the forefront of defending the group. JJ: Right. 94 �ADR: I remember one night when he got drunk. [02:36:00] Now, to my credit, as I said, the friendship I had with him, I mean obviously repeated it many times. He was drunk one night as many times when we used to get drunk every weekend, we used to go try to get drunk, try it, because we thought that was a cool thing to do or we wanted to do it. But you remember the fight when he took on, he fought about 11 different fights in one night? He was fighting everybody? Among the group and everything that he had gotten, know what he was doing. Orlando. JJ: When he fought Andre or whatever, I remember one time I had to get in the middle of is that, and both sides wanted to kick my butt. Both sides. ADR: Well, that night he ended up the only one he-JJ: He told me he was going to kill me and Andre. ADR: He started a fight with everybody within the group. He was drunk, he was drunk. And obviously, [02:37:00] Orlando’s Orlando but we didn’t, the rest of the guys didn’t give a shit. They-- we weren’t going to take his crap. But I mean, he fought about 11 of us one night, except me. He’s the only one that, in other words, recognized me. He never tried but he was fighting with everybody else, including yourself. Fermin, Carlos, I mean all the other guys because he was drunk. He had drank, he was completely fucked up. But that was Orlando. That was his thing about explaining. But-JJ: I remember Division Pete and Andre were together. ADR: Andre was another one that tried to-JJ: And then Orlando was defending Ralph. ADR: Who? 95 �JJ: He was defending Ralph. ADR: Right. You’re right. JJ: And that’s the time that I had to get in the middle because they were going to destroy the group. And so I had to get in the middle. [02:38:00] And one time Orlando was winning-- no, Andre was winning over Orlando because the ones that started the fight was Division Pete and Spaghetti and Ralph. But then the ones that did the fighting, those were the ones that started the fight. Division Pete and Ralph, the ones that did the fighting was Orlando and Andre. See, even though the other ones started the fight, it became a fight between Orlando and Andre. And then Andre had Orlando for a while and I grabbed Andre. He had him stuck and he was getting ready to do damage. And I came from behind and grabbed, I grabbed Andre, and Andre told me, I’m going to kill you. You let me go whatever. I said, well, let him get out of the fence so he could fight you fair. Let him get out. So then I did that for him. [02:39:00] So then later on, it was the other way around, it was Andre that was on the ground and Orlando was ready to get him. And that’s when I grabbed Orlando and he told me the same thing, I’m going to kill you son of a gun. So I said, okay, whatever, later on, but let Andre get up. So I kept the fight balanced because I didn’t want the group to destroy because there was a split between the group that hung around on Wheeling and the old Lords, the core group like Orlando and Spaghetti and yourself and other people that was a core group was I had to get in the middle and play mediator. Do you recall that or no? ADR: Who? 96 �JJ: I had to get in the middle to keep it fair. ADR: Right. JJ: Do you remember that at all or no? How do you remember that? ADR: [02:40:00] You’re talking about a different fight. JJ: Oh, it’s a different fight? Okay. ADR: That was a different fight. JJ: Okay. Alright. ADR: The one I’m talking is where Orlando got drunk. It had nothing to do with no-- it had nothing to do with that. The one, I realize what you’re talking, but you’re talking about a completely different fight. JJ: Okay. But you had heard about that one. ADR: Right. JJ: Okay. So that was the other one. ADR: But the other one I’m referring to is when he just started going at the guys, it got to the point that he didn’t recognize-- the only-- he ended up, for some reason, that recognized me was me. I’m the only one that he didn’t pick a fight with in that was drunk is what my point I’m trying to make. But you reminded me about the fights. All these guys that came in that ended up being friends, you’re forgetting one guy that would not mention that I haven’t mentioned hardly at all. Carlos. Carlos, Raymond’s brother was very much part of it, but he was a quiet [02:41:00] one. But he was in the thick of a lot of the fighting, a lot of the things that we did, he was always there and we hardly ever mentioned him, but he was, 97 �all the fighting we did, he was always there fighting with us alongside of us. But we hardly ever mentioned him because we-JJ: He lived over by Halsted and Woodwright. There was a Spanish store underneath and he lived in that building that was a big multi dwelling like you said. ADR: But he tended to be very quiet. JJ: Right, right. ADR: Never really said anything much or anything else, but he was always there fighting with us. JJ: Okay, now you’re in the service. Right? And you’re there from 1965 to 1968, 1966, 1967, 1968. ADR: Right. That would’ve been, you can’t really count when you’re saying 1965-really that was November when I left at the end of November. JJ: Okay. ADR: So you got one month [02:42:00] December and that was it from the month of 1965. So it-JJ: So it was 1964? ADR: So you’re really looking, I was going away from 1960- in other words, the three years from 1966, 1967, 1968. I came back in November of 1968. JJ: Okay. Alright. ADR: After the convention when I returned. JJ: After the Democrat convention. So now how-- ADR: When I went in, I was 17 years old. 98 �JJ: Right. ADR: Alright. And I wanted to be a paratrooper, but it turns out that this is how I ended up, for whatever reasons, sometimes things happen, one doesn’t realize the impact that it has on you. So I’m thinking that when you’re going to be a soldier, you’re a soldier and that’s it, there was nothing other than you’re prepared for war or you’re firing weapons and that kind. I’m 17 years old. But when I got in and actually I left when I learned another important lesson [02:43:00] in life. That particular night I got jumped. You remember that? Cha-Cha? You’re falling asleep. JJ: Oh, I’m sorry. No, go ahead. Okay. No, we’re in the service. We’re in the service. ADR: Okay. JJ: And you wanted to be a paratrooper, you said? ADR: That was from the Continentals. That’s why I have no dear love against your cousin. JJ: My cousin Danny Rodriguez. ADR: Yeah, Danny. What happened that night. JJ: President of the Continentals. ADR: Danny, well, he got, in some ways, when you think in life some people get paid back and it works both ways. But what happened that night was that, going back to my younger years, well remember I met you when I was a Patrol Boy. When I had been a Patrol Boy, it said the captain of the Patrol Boys, one of the Continentals was one of my patrol boys. And [02:44:00] there was a girl-- we 99 �used to have the tunnel that went underneath the El tracks on the street and the station was right there in the morning. He was trying to make out with one of the girls, forcibly trying to kiss her. And obviously she didn’t want anything to do with him. And I made the mistake-- I happened to see what had happened and I said, leave her alone. He said something to me, again, you’re young, 12 years old, whatever age I was at that point, whether I was 12 or 10, I clipped him, I hit him, knocked him out. He tried to get up and fight me and beat the crap out him and it was the end of it. Then I had him removed. I took away like I said the guy was in charge, I had me charged and I kicked him out. Never did anything. Years went by. But your cousin [02:45:00] was an asshole. He instigated him because I found out about that later and the night when they found out that I was leaving in the morning I was leaving, that I was going to go into the service. Danny instigated the guy to get even with me. So as I was going down to Old Town, remember that’s at the time we still hung out in Old Town. So that was the last night. And I was on my way down to Old Town. I was walking down on Armitage, passing Waller High School. He came from behind me and dropped me, took me by surprise and dropped me. And I know (inaudible) when I turned around, I started fighting him. And the Continentals, your cousin came up and I said, this is bullshit. [02:46:00] So it was kind of, I never forgot that, but like I said, and I never forgave him for that either. Kind of was laughing about it. I said, it’s going to be paid back on this one. So when I got back up in there, Ralph found out of him what happened that I had gotten jumped. We came back and they were gone and we went looking for him because I was going into the 100 �service. Ralph said, don’t worry about it, Sal, I’m going to going get these guys. And I was leaving that night. But the lesson I learned about that comes from this is that if you’re fighting somebody, and that’s what I had done and reflecting on that particular situation, is I humiliated the kid in my younger years. And that’s something I learned is that if you’re fighting somebody [02:47:00] and you beat ’em, there’s a choice to be made at that point. You can either allow the guy to get up gracefully and perhaps have a friend for life or you can beat the shit out of him and have an enemy for sure for life. And that’s what I had done with that guy when I knocked him the first punch when I had hit him. I mean, I found him and knocked him that, but I ended up humiliating him because I kept letting him in there humiliated in front of the girl, not realizing that he liked the girl. So in beating the shit out him, keeping his ass further, I had humiliated him something obviously he didn’t, never forgot. And your cousin fed that particular thing them in place against our group. I mean, particularly to myself, because I think it was [02:48:00] as much just like anything else, the Young Lords, I mean. Let me ask a question that has to (inaudible) because it’s inside of your family. Was there any (inaudible) that your cousin had about the Young Lords? JJ: Andy? ADR: Yeah. JJ: Well, between me and him, because we were cousins, we already had a history together. And so he didn’t show that to me. I mean, he more or less, he had his group and then we had our group. 101 �ADR: I think he had an (inaudible) against the group because we were, remember they came after we, at whatever point-JJ: We were more fighters than they were. They more hung around at Newbury’s playground. And so we were more fighters than they were. They were not really that much into fighting. [02:49:00] ADR: As a group-JJ: One day we went to the police station because we were just playing games with ’em, just joking around with ’em. And they took us all to the police station and we had to all stay until the parents came in and got everybody. But that’s the only time that I know that they went to jail or that they fought. And we were just playing games with ’em. ADR: Oh, there was another gang fight. I mean, you’re talking, when we had a fight. JJ: I mean individuals came all the time, but I mean. ADR: Do you remember the fight where they lined us up, the police, they had lined us up. JJ: It was in the-- ADR: Who were we fighting that night? JJ: We were fighting them, but it was playing games. We weren’t really fighting. Then the police arrested us all and then lined us up inside the police station, made us do pushups, turned it into a festival (inaudible). [02:50:00] We were having a good time. ADR: But I mean, my point of what I’m trying to get you to reflect on something else. I know that there was a mock fight, if you want to call it that, but the mock fight in 102 �itself-- I’m reflecting on something, on somebody that in later years underhandedly-- that’s not a nice word. And it’s not what I’m really mean, but I use the word (inaudible) because I can’t really describe anything what the Young Lords ended up representing. And my point is that was there (inaudible) part of your cousin in so far as the issue with the young Lord is we had become more popular. We were better well known. And obviously we were much better fighters than they were. They couldn’t even, you know. JJ: No, they weren’t into fighting. They weren’t into fighting. There were some groups that were not into fighting. Like you said, [02:51:00] even the older ones, the Black Eagles and Paragons, they didn’t even want to fight anymore. They had lived through that and they didn’t want, in fact, the fighting was gone by 1968. There was no fighting. I mean, people were just, that’s when drugs came into the neighborhood. ADR: Well, for me, when I was gone first, like I said, what changed that number? What changed? Now, one of the things when I got inducted in and when I went in, I didn’t know that I was going to have to have a job in the Army, whether it was going to be a cook, a driver, whatever. For some reason hadn’t, when I went in, I hadn’t picked what I wanted to do because it was supposed to. I thought I was miss, I just want to jump out of airplanes. I want to be a paratroop. And the sergeant, when I was being inducted in kind of laughed. He said you’re not going to be jumping planes every day. He says, you got to do some work. He says, cook, things like that. Driver, what? [02:52:00] So at that point I’m thinking, what the fuck am I supposed to do? I don’t even know. My mind is blank. What the 103 �fuck am I going to be? So he chose it for me. He looked at me and he said, you know what? He says, you look like the kind of guy that likes to drive big machines. So he marked me down as a heavy equipment operator and that’s how I ended up becoming a heavy equipment operator. ADR: So when I went in, after going to the training and all that, that I was trained and originally I was going to be sent to Vietnam. The period, and a lot of to be said about what things that I learned in the service, but I was 17 years old instead of going to Vietnam at the point that when too many 17 year olds were dying, getting killed in Vietnam, and obviously mothers were complaining to [02:53:00] Johnson. Johnson decided to stop sending the 17 year olds. And it just so happens when we were graduating out of our training, basic training in what they call a AIT, advanced training into your particular occupation. So all the 17-yearold kids out of the class where we had been taught basic said to, they stopped us and separated us from the rest of the older guys and said, you guys, they held us back. END OF VIDEO FILE 104 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c596581aa9b694020f577d4710517808.mp4 c372141b7cc234e8c25f46b8865008cc Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Angel “Sal” del Rivero vídeo entrevista y biografía, entrevista 2 Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Mexicano-Americanos--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Mexicano-Americanos--Illinois--Chicago--Vida social y costumbres Veteranos--Relatos Personales Pandillas--Illinois--Chicago Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Rivero_Angel_del_2 Title A name given to the resource Angel “Sal” del Rivero video interview and transcript, interview 2 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rivero, Angel del Description An account of the resource Angel “Sal” del Rivero was born in Mexico. In the late 1950s and early 1960s he lived in Lincoln Park on Dayton Street. Later his family moved to the Lakeview Neighborhood near Wrigley Field. Mr. Rivero became one of the original members of the Young Lords in 1959. While the Young Lords were transforming themselves into a human rights movement, Mr. Rivero was serving in the U.S. military. When he came out most Young Lords were opposed to the Vietnam War, although many Young Lords also served on the front lines in that war. Mr. Rivero at first resented those who opposed the war. But after Young Lord Manuel Ramos was killed by an off duty policeman, the entire Young Lords group reunited themselves for human rights. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Mexican Americans--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Mexican Americans--Illinois--Chicago--Social life and customs Veterans--Personal narratives Gangs--Illinois--Chicago Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-07-12 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6e4d4ccebeffe25e67efa080de6f1b04.mp4 129bcbc7f535d6bdc14bc931250765a8 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e19b2ae550166deb4384b322d41b95cd.pdf 39ae8f918d07514c4ca83aae1668e295 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Jim Roach (2:03:33) Background Information (00:25) • • • • • • Born in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, in 1947. (00:30) He grew up in Delaware County in the suburbs of Philadelphia. (00:41) His father worked for the Federal Government in the forestry service. Neither of his parents had completed high school. (1:07) Jim was the oldest of 5 children. (1:50) After graduating from high school he attended a seminary but struggled in and dropped out after his first semester. (2:30) Jim began working a job at a hardware store. In 1966 he realized he would probably be drafted, instead he enlisted in the army to be a helicopter pilot. (3:00) Basic training (3:30) • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • Jim attended basic training at Fort Polk, Louisiana (3:30) There were about 150 men in his training company. Of that, approx 12 men had high school diplomas. (3:50) Jim was flown from Pennsylvania to Texas. They were then sent on a prop air plane to Fort Polk, Louisiana. (5:01) The men were then sent to the reception where the men did KP and were issued uniforms. (6:37) Jim’s experience in Catholic grade school helped him adjust to the discipline of the military. (7:35) Jim was in Fort Polk in late May of 1966. He was sent to Fort Jackson South Carolina for Advanced Infantry Training (AIT). (9:30) After completing AIT Jim was made a drill sergeant while waiting to be sent to OCS. (10:07) There were 5 platoons set up in Jim’s company during basic, each having 3 drill sergeants. (12:02) Jim was one of the only members in his training outfit that was from above the Mason-Dixon line. (12:46) Less than 10% of the training outfit was black. (14:04) The black soldiers seemed to like to segregate themselves from the other soldiers while in the field. (14:48) Fort Polk was specialized for Vietnam combat even as early as the summer of 1966. (16:00) The AIT consisted of weapons training that trained on more than just the M1 [M14?] rifle. (16:31) There were more people from the north during the advanced training than in basic. (18:33) Quite a few of the men training Jim had already served in Vietnam. (19:29) Basic and AIT lasted 8 weeks each. (20:35) Advanced OCS at Fort Benning, Georgia (21:02) �• • • • • • • • • • • OCS [Officer Candidate School] was a 6 month program and was used to make many officers in a short period of time. (21:21) The men repainted their platoon area every month. The soldiers had to purchase the paint themselves. (22:23) Jim was the youngest man in his company by 3 years. Most men had a college degree who Jim was training with. (23:22) Jim finished in the top 10% of his class. (24:24) Jim was given a commission but he initially didn’t take it because he was 19 and needed to be 21 to be an officer. (25:30) When Jim was sent to his division he was still shy of 20 but looked 15. Because of this, the men didn’t believe he was an officer. (26:30) There was tactical and field training. Jim thought this was easier than being on base becase there was actually less to do there. (28:12) The men had spit shine floors and their things were set for inspection. The men tried very hard never to walk on the floor. (28:50) In the spring of 1967 all the men in OOCS were hoping for something else but expected Vietnam. (31:14) Jim completed OCS on April 25th 1967 and was sent to jump school at Fort Benning, Georgia, after being assigned to the 101st Airborne Division. (31:35) The program lasted 3 weeks; Ground week, tower week, jump week. (33:02) Service in the 101st Airborne State Side (33:05) • • • • • • • Jim was sent to Fort Campbell, Kentucky ,in late May of 1967 where the 101st was stationed. (33:09) It was announced that Jim’s battalion would be sent to West Point for the summer to aid in practice exercises. (33:59) The officers of the 101st were assigned to instruct graduating seniors about what it’s like to be a platoon leader. This was problematic for Jim as he had only several weeks’ experience of being a platoon leader. (35:17) Jim was moved up to headquarters and informed that he was to be sent to Vietnam in December of 1967. (37:45) Many officers in the 101st were lost because of the Army policy that men who have already served in Vietnam did not have to redeploy there. (38:00) Jim was assigned to Bravo Company where he took trained mortar men and made them bush men in the field. This service lasted from January-June of 1967. (39:41) Jim served as platoon leader in all companies (Alpha, Bravo, Delta,) of the 2nd Battalion of the 506th (41:30) Early Service in Vietnam (41:50) • • • Jim was sent to Vietnam in a cargo aircraft. This was nice as there was often space for soldiers to lie down. (41:55) The cargo aboard ship needed to be weighed before being placed aboard the plane. This duty was give to Jim. (43:51) The aircraft left from Fort Campbell and stopped in Guam for one hour to refuel. Jim landed in Bien Hoa. (46:11) �• • • • • • • • • • • • There was supposed to be enough ammunition on each plane for the soldiers aboard. (46:36) Shortly after landing most men were sent to other locations via a truck convoy to go to Phuoc Vinh. (47:36) Jim and his Sergeant were placed in charge of getting mules (flat topped tracked vehicles used for moving supplies) to the base. This process took 3 days. During this time Jim found an M113 armored personal carrier and took it. (48:00) When Jim arrived in Phuoc Vinh in December of 1967, he learned that his unit was not allowed to have the 113. The 113 was then traded for 3 cases of beer and 3 cases of coke to another unit. (49:55) There was a month long in country training program given after the troops arrived. During these training exercises, Jim was shot while practicing a squad ambush. (51:42) 15 meters of parachute cord acted as a tug line between men’s position in the company. (53:25) After Jim was shot the platoon moved so their position would not be found. After the soldiers moved their location was hit by mortars. (55:30) For punishment, the man who shot Jim had to buy beers for the company. (57:08) While traveling through the bush the men found 15 pallets of rice. The men scanned the area and eventually engaged in a fire fight. (58:57) There was a friendly fire casualty during this engagement. (1:00:05) After waking up from a nap, Jim found his platoon at the air field to be moved. Though they didn’t know it, they were being moved for the Tet Offensive (1:02:15) The men were taken to Bien Hoa Air Base before being sent out. (1:04:22) The Tet Offensive (1:05:00) • • • • • • • • • • • • • The men could see green tracers, a sigh of enemy fire, once landing in Bien Hoa. (1:05:40) On base, all the men’s weapons were locked in a storage locker. (1:06:39) Some aircraft were destroyed but not many. (1:07:37) After the firing ceased, Jim and his platoon were sent to Bien Hoa village to flush out any enemy troops. (1:09:07) The clearing of the village was a very difficult 3 days. 10 casualties were taken. (1:10:40) One of his men needed to be medevaced because he had shot himself as the result of a joke with another soldier. Jim was asked to write up the citation for the Silver Star which enraged him and did not write him a good citation. (1:11:50) At this time the men were not engaging Vietcong. (1:14:40) Often rifle companies had less than 100 men in them often companies had as low as 60. There was a 5:1 wounded to kill ratio. (1:15:25) As a platoon leader, many men did not like that they had to go into the danger to solve what was occurring. (1:16:24) In the summer of 1968 Jim and his company were engaging enemy left over from the Tet Offensive. A third of the company’s casualties came from this summer. (1:17:31) Jim believes that the reason the press took the Tet Offensive so poorly was that it was the first time that the media has ever seen real combat up close. (1:18:00) Jim does believe that he was on “the right side” of history in terms of what he did as a soldier. Many of the Vietnamese did not understand the concept of a citizen. (1:20:17) After 2 weeks in Bien Hoa the division was moved North and then to the central highlands of the country where they spent approx. 1 month. (1:23:30) �Service in Cu Chi (1:24:31) • • • • • • • • • • • Jim's Platoon was then moved to Cu Chi where they served under the 23rd Infantry division. There were a lot of booby traps in the area. Often when booby traps were triggered there was no time to react. This was psychologically stressful to the soldiers. (1:25:26) Often the enemy fired upon the platoon in defense. They often didn’t engage U.S. soldiers as they were aware of the superiority of their fire power. (1:27:00) Often villages they encountered around Cu Chi had signs of being used for VC bases. Many had large surplus of rice, thought to be used to feed VC. (1:28:31) The Vietnamese civilians were afraid of the U.S. solders. Often solders tried to help the poor civilians who had very poor living conditions. (1:30:00) He was made a Recon Platoon leader in June of 1968 (1:33:35) A normal field uniform did not have any patches. This was because when showers were set up, men would give their uniform to the quartermaster to be washed, take a shower, and then when exiting the shower, were given washed uniform that were not the ones they turned in. (1:35:12) When the rainy season started the river flooded, which flooded the camp with manure. This resulted in many men getting sick. The barracks did collapse because of the rain. (1:37:34) The new Brigade Commander came to visit Jim’s platoon from the fire base. When he did, Jim was yelled at for not having a “proper” uniform. (1:39:20) Jim went to the hospital in Cu Chi. While visiting the hospital, Jim visited the officer’s club. He talked with several nurses at the club. It was clear they were ignorant as to what Jim’s world was like in the field. (1:41:31) Jim was in the Cu Chi area from mid June to late August of 1968. Then he was sent to be placed under the control of the 101st Airborne. (1:43:40) Life in Vietnam (1:44:20) • • • • • • • • • • The men were transported in a C-123. No men had seats. (1:44:20) Jim and his unit was moved into Camp Evans while the 1st Cavalry moved to Phuoc Vinh (1:45:00) The men were then sent into the mountains where the soldiers often cuddled together for warmth. (1:46:30) Jim was the only man to finish an entire year of service in the field being Lieutenant of the 2nd of the 506th. (1:48:05) The men serving over Jim were often rotated out just as men in the field were. (1:48:50) On one assignment the men were kept in a company as opposed to a platoon. (1:50:55) There was some prostitution while in central Vietnam however it was less common as they moved north. (1:53:32) He heard of one [Vietnamese?] man who paid $10,000 for his position. Jim was an idealist at the time and came to sense that corruption was common with in the military. (1:54:10) Drugs, primarily Marijuana, were a problem. He had one soldier who used drugs while in a security position. When this man was being transported later on, he jumped out of the helicopter at 300 feet. (1:55:18) Problems associated with drug use were much more prevalent in the rear. (1:57:07) �• When the men arrived in country, morale was high. By summer, morale was low, due in part to the loss of more experienced soldiers. (1:57:26) End of First year in Country (1:58:37) • • • He left Vietnam on December 7th 1968. (1:59:40) Jim was engaged before he left. When he returned they got married on December 26th 1968. (2:01:34) He didn’t see any protesters upon his return. He did fly in civilian clothes however because it was more comfortable. (2:02:37) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RoachJ1452V Title A name given to the resource Roach, James (Interview outline and video, 1 of 2), 2012 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roach, James Description An account of the resource Jim Roach, born in Philadelphia Pennsylvania in 1947, served in the U.S. Army starting in 1966 and ended his first tour in Vietnam in December of 1968. After completing basic training at Fort Polk Louisiana, Jim was then sent to Advanced Infantry Training (AIT) at Fort Polk Louisiana as well as OCS school at Fort Benning Georgia. In December of 1967, Jim was sent to Vietnam, where he served as a platoon leader in several different companies of the 2nd Battalion of the 506th Regiment in the 101st Airborne Division. His unit was based initially at Phuoc Vinh, went to Bien Hoa after the start of the Tet Offensive, and then later moved north to Cu Chi. Unlike most officers, he spent his whole first tour in the field. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings United States. Army Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-10-04 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5e6552fd02bfa2fab29cc43595db8839.mp4 0ccfb37015b847838136f34c856c4547 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/76653924e80ec623447ea0257b732c49.pdf 2507f8e8c9c75fd322db2a4dec0de491 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans’ History Project Jim Roach Vietnam War Part 3 & 4 1 hour 51 minutes 7 seconds (00:00:18) Early Life -Got back from his first tour on December 6, 1968 -Got married on December 26, 1968 -Didn‟t have any personal experience with harassment from protestors -Family was neither for, nor against, the war -Moved to Fort Dix, New Jersey with his wife -Assigned to an advanced infantry training company as a trainer -Didn‟t particularly respect some of his superior officers there (00:02:43) Redeployment to Vietnam -Knew that he would have to go back to Vietnam if he stayed in the Army -Wanted to get out of Fort Dix -Wanted to get his second tour over with -Volunteered for a second tour to Vietnam after about three or four months of being home -Had deployment orders within forty eight hours -Wife wasn‟t happy, but understood the reasoning (00:04:11) Arrival in Vietnam for Second Tour -In June 1969 he returned to Vietnam -Promoted to the rank of captain in the first part of April -Arrived right after the major battle at Hamburger Hill -Assigned to the 2nd Battalion, 506th Regiment, 101st Airborne Division -Same unit that he had served in in his first tour -A lot of the soldiers from the first tour were still there -Assigned to an operations section -Chance for commanders to see if he could be a competent captain -Spent three weeks there -Located at Firebase Airborne in the A Shau Valley -Overlooked Warehouse 54 -Major supply staging area for the Viet Cong (00:07:44) Conditions as Delta Company Commander -Assigned to lead Delta Company -Seemed to have a lot of disconnected battalion commanders -Created frustration among the troops -Remembers their gear being battered and nondescript -Fatigues didn‟t have many, if any, patches and their boots were beaten and dirty -Being an infantry soldier operating in the field meant he lived in a different reality (00:14:10) Operating in the A Shau Valley -During the June of 1969 the 101st Airborne Division was operating in the A Shau Valley �-High amount of enemy activity -Prior goal was to deny the Viet Cong access to the Laotian border -When the monsoon came in the fall the division was poised to leave the valley -The rains made it impossible for helicopters to get into, or out of, the valley -Had to close down firebases for the season -Delta Company wound up in Firebase Bastogne in September/October -Artillery guns and most equipment had been moved out -They lost contact with the rear during their time there -Radios didn‟t have the range to reach the rear -Left cut off and vulnerable to enemy attacks -Fire team (4 or 5 troops) was sent out a mile with a radio to act as a radio relay -Eventually got extracted out of the A Shau when the weather broke after about 3 or 4 days (00:19:17) Operating in the Lowlands -In late fall and into the winter the unit was moved to the Lowlands -Moved up to take over from the Marines being extracted -Operated in mountainous terrain -Difficult to create landing zones for helicopters -Susceptible to surprise attacks due to the predictability of their movements -In late October they took heavy enemy mortar fire -Got lucky because the Viet Cong missed the helicopter that was trying to land -They took forty mortar rounds during the barrage in a very short time -He was able to find cover and avoid the attack -Command and control helicopter near them spotted the mortar team -Cobra gunship helicopter was sent in and neutralized the threat -Still lost two soldiers due to a direct mortar strike -One of the dead men had been a good friend (00:29:07) Conditions in the Field and Being a Commander -Most enemy contact was brief and sporadic during the summer and the fall -His unit was able to carry out a few successful ambushes near Camp Evans -Not being able to see the dead bodies of the enemy was frustrating and demoralizing -Never felt like they were making any progress -Rare to have more than one hundred men in the field operating as a company -Soldiers got wounded, cycled out, or killed -Led to the men in the company forming an incredibly strong bond with each other -During the summer and fall worked as platoons -Way of looking for the enemy more effectively -Sometimes groups as small as squads (10 or fewer men) were sent out on patrols -Stressful being a company commander -Had to maintain a balance between being an Army leader and being a comrade -Had to act according to military protocol, but also with a level of humanity -After a short time sent to China Beach -Navy fuel depot on the coastline -Spent two weeks there providing security and resting -Had a responsibility to keep the men in his command alive (00:37:47) Deployment to Camp Evans -In late November 1969 he was rotated out of being Delta‟s company commander �-Part of the Army‟s rotation schedule -Sent to Brigade Headquarters to be an Assistant Brigade Officer (major) at Camp Evans -He was rapidly cycled out of the field after training his replacement -Worked in the 3rd Brigade Tactical Operations Center at Camp Evans -Worked there for a few months (00:40:30) Assignment to Charlie Company 3rd of the 187th -Charlie Company 3rd of the 187th commander was being rotated out of the field -He was selected to be the replacement -He was flown into Phong Dien in early February 1970 -He was first hand witness to a scandal involving an allegedly gay commander at Phong Dien (00:45:50) Leading Charlie Company -Started to notice a lot of activity around Firebase Ripcord during this time -Placed in command of Charlie Company of the 3rd of the 187th of the 101st Airborne Division -Found out that Delta Company had been a better company to lead -Delta had been organized and cooperative -Found that Charlie Company was argumentative and disorganized -Engrained in the personality of the company -Further found out that a breakdown in communication with base camp led to inefficiency (00:50:20) Problems in Charlie Company -Racial tensions were a problem in Charlie Company -Black soldiers wanted to work as a group and not with the company as a whole -Had a lot of “shake n‟ bake” sergeants during his second tour -Rapidly trained, non-career officers -Tried to change the company by leading by example -Didn‟t want to force change within the company -Losing the battalion commander to a Viet Cong attack led to a further lack of communication -New battalion commander was out of touch with the soldiers on the ground -Had problems with marijuana -More of a problem in the base camps and in the cities -Easily accessed due to exposure to the Vietnamese populace (01:01:55) In the Field with Charlie Company (may have to split into two parts) -Not wholly aware of the situation around Firebase Ripcord -Knew there was enemy activity in the area and in the mountains -Operated in that area -Worked primarily around Firebase Rakkasan -Primary focus was the pacification of the Phong Dien Province -Trying to work with the Vietnamese civilians against the Viet Cong -Providing security and support for the South Vietnamese military -Led to him noticing a lot of corruption within the South Vietnamese Army -Officers paying for their assignments and ranks -Large black market -Searched villages in the area -Noticed personal conflicts flaring up between the Vietnamese -Worked with Viet Cong defectors that were working as translators -There was a high amount of Viet Cong attacks in the area -Remembers an operation north of Camp Evans �-Created ambush for advancing Vietnamese forces -Abandoned ambush because a sergeant fell and impaled his butt on bamboo -Remembers being on the demilitarized zone during the monsoon season -Rain made the low temperatures feel even colder -Had to huddle and sleep together for warmth (01:15:46) End of Second Tour and Deployment to Fort Benning -His second tour ending in June 1970 -Went home and bought a car and drove to Fort Benning, Georgia -Spent six months in the Battalion and Brigade Operations Division -Worked with his commander from his first tour -Consisted of a lot of reading -Went into the advanced course in December 1970 which lasted nine months -After the advanced course was selected for Biological and Nuclear Targeting Officer Course -Focus was on studying the potential effects of a biological or nuclear attack on an area (01:18:18) U.S. Army Rangers -Went to Ranger School after the Biological & Nuclear Targeting Officer Course -Graduated with honors -Attributes that to the infantry experience he already had -Got assigned to the Fort Benning Ranger Department -TAC (Training, Advising, and Counseling) Officer -Focus was on training small unit tactics more precisely and meticulously -Originally “small unit tactics” was a vague phrase and fluid concept -His job was to make it more specific -Had to introduce training standards by which to base training off of -Had a difficult time introducing the concept to Ranger Schools -He was placed in charge of reducing the dropout rate and getting it down from 30% -Found a correlation between poor physical test scores and dropout rate -Tried to give the soldiers more physical training -It only made them more tired and led to more soldiers washing out -Having the enlistment option didn‟t help with the dropout rate -People could enlist directly into the Rangers without doing any time in the regular Army -This led to the dropout rate soaring to 85% -Spent four years working in the Ranger Department at Fort Benning (01:27:43) College at St. Martin’s -Began attending college classes at night in 1975 -During 1973 and 1974 the military was being downsized -Wanted to be prepared in the event of being discharged -Went to St. Martin‟s College -Afraid of failing out of college like he had before -Focused and was motivated this time around -Got on the dean‟s list -Graduated in 1976 -Being twenty nine years old he noticed a lot of the immaturity in the freshmen (01:31:45) Special Forces School -After St. Martin‟s College he went to Special Forces Training at Fort Bragg, North Carolina -Graduated with honors �-Attributes that again to experience he had in the infantry and in the Rangers (01:32:25) Bad Tolz, Germany -Sent to Bad Tolz, Germany -Coveted assignment -One officer offered to trade his Corvette for the assignment -Located south of Munich -Learned to ski when he was in Germany -Worked with senior noncommissioned officers from WWII -Worked with displaced persons (refugees) that were serving in the military for citizenship -Conducted cross border recon and intelligence missions -Spent three and a half years in Bad Tolz (01:35:45) Reserve Officers’ Training Corps and Marine Corps Staff College -After Bad Tolz he returned to the States and worked with the ROTC in Springfield, Missouri -Small town in southwest Missouri -Enjoyed his time there -While working with the ROTC he was selected for a Command and Staff College position -Got sent to the Marine Corps Staff College -Eventually graduated from there (01:40:25) Latin American Deployments -After the Marine Corps Staff College he was selected for an assignment in Spain -Started learning Spanish through the Defense Language Institute in Monterrey -After only two months the program was shut down -Wanted an assignment in a Spanish speaking country and was sent to Panama -Worked through Southern Command out of Florida -After Panama he was sent to El Salvador and stayed there from 1984-1986 -Served as 1st Salvadoran Brigade advisor, Strategic Security advisor -Served as a part of an Operational Planning and Training Team -Able to live with his family during his time in El Salvador -Primary goal was to train the Salvadorans how to improve their military -Had to work with limited defense funds -Was able to increase the defense fund but noticed an increase in corruption -Later learned that one Salvadoran officer was a kidnapping kingpin -Salvadoran officers didn‟t treat the Salvadoran enlisted men well -Officers were from the city and the enlisted men were from the country (01:46:00) Other Work in Latin America -Worked as a trainer and gathering intelligence in Colombia out of the US Embassy -Did that job for nine years -Also worked in Peru and in Mexico -Mexico was a mess and incredibly hard to deal with -For the last two years of his job he worked in Afghanistan -Worse than trying to work in Mexico (01:47:20) Other Army Assignments -After El Salvador he was assigned to the 2nd Battalion 1st Group in South Korea -Had three exercises a year in South Korea -After that he went to the War College -He wound up being selected to serve in the „Secret Army‟ of Northern Virginia �-Highly secretive Special Forces group tied to the CIA -Served with them as a deputy commander -Wanted to get a deployment to a Spanish speaking region -Given a position personally by General Thurman from the Pentagon -Special position for Spanish speaking officers -Later worked as a defense attaché in Colombia -Picked to be a Special Forces Group Commander -Slated for the 10th Group in Europe -Wound up in the 7th Group in Fort Bragg, North Carolina instead -Served as the Director for Doctrine and Training � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RoachJ1452V3 Title A name given to the resource Roach, James (Interview outline and video, 2 of 2), 2013 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Roach, James Description An account of the resource In the second part of his interview Jim Roach covers his second tour in Vietnam (1969-1970), where he initially commanded D Company, 2nd Battalion, 506th Regiment, 101st Airborne Division in the A Shau Valley and other parts of I Corps. After six months, he rotated to a rear area assignment, but was then sent to command a company in the 3rd Battalion, 187th Regiment and get it into shape. His second tour ended in June 1970, after which he served with the U.S. Army Rangers, attend college at St. Martin's College, went to Special Forces School, and also worked in Latin America aiding several Latin American countries in improving their militaries. He also served in South Korea and in Germany and was also selected to serve in the elite Secret Army of Northern Virginia. Towards the end of his career he was selected to be the Special Forces Group Commander of Group 7 stationed in Fort Bragg, North Carolina. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2013-07-05 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ec68a062eadd4c5c05f0fe9158460fb7.pdf c6a64eaa4e223e4bfaee2340dd35dd6c PDF Text Text Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department Russell Robbins Interview Total Time – (41:17) Interviewed by Walter Urick, February 19, 2016. Background • He is the son of Mason and Dorothy Robbins o His father worked for Doctor Munger from 1946 until 1959 • He was born in September of 1941 in Hart, Michigan o From a family of 9 girls and 2 boys • He graduated from Hart High School in 1960 Work History Overview – (1:27) • From 1950 to 1960 he worked with his dad at Doctor Munger’s farm in the summer • He bought and took over a gas station in 1960 • From 1965 to 1972 he ran a Dodge car dealership • In 1971 he started teaching part-time at West Shore Community College in Scottville as an automotive instructor • He worked up to be a self-educated technical person o He took a correspondence course in 1961 with the National Automotive Service Excellency Group o He helped to organize the state of Michigan’s mechanic certification test and mechanic certification procedures • In 1991 he went back into business because the college eliminated the automotive program, and so he had an independent shop until 2003 • He then got involved in the Hart Historic District as a volunteer Doctor Munger’s Farming Operations – (5:40) • Doctor Munger owned 500 acres of cherries by 1950, as one of the largest tart cherry growers in the world • Russell was involved in the operation by trimming trees, handling fertilizer…but he didn’t pick the cherries • It would take 400-600 people six weeks to pick all the cherries • Doctor Munger’s orchard locations 1 �Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department o o o o o o o 12 acres on West Main Street in Hart, which is now Plum Street 30 acres west on 64th called the Bray Farm 80 and 12 acres on the Clark Farm 27 acres on Tyler Road 144 acres on Poke Road at 116th, called the McDonald Farm 80 acres called the England Farm where Russell helped plant the cherries 400 acres on Juniper Beach ▪ Doctor Munger would sell lots there and people would build cottages ▪ 164 acres of cherries at Juniper Beach How the Cherries Were Harvested – (10:29) • They had two crews from 250 to 350 people • They would pick by trees instead of by rows • They put the cherries into lugs when picking • At the checkout station, the cherries would be weighed and people got punches in their tickets for all their cherries picked • Doctor Munger and his wife came in the payroll car every day to pay the workers o Because they paid in cash and therefore had $6,000-12,000 in their car, they had an armed guard with them • If a worker had 200 pounds and it was 2 cents a pound, they got $4 • It took about six weeks to pick the cherries • On an average day, 500 people would pick 70,000-80,000 pounds of cherries • The cherries had to be picked, hauled, taken to the canning factory, loaded and unloaded, etc • In 1954 Floyd Cargill changed to hauling cherries in water tanks in trucks The Cherry Pickers – (16:28) • There was discrimination so all of the workers were Caucasian • Doctor Munger would go to Florida every year to visit the people and recruit them • None were Hispanic in the 1950s • The workers came from Florida, Georgia, Arkansas, Missouri, Tennessee • They were housed in little cabins at a number of the farming locations • Russell worked there from when he was 10-19 years old 2 �Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department A Typical Work Day – (19:25) • They could work from 6:00am until 5:00pm • Around 300 people that came to work every year • The average male could pick 1,000 pounds of cherries a day o When paying him and his family, they could make $75-100 a day maybe • The camps had a central water location, but people showered in Lake Michigan • They always had to haul around 500 people and 200 ladders • Supervisors were school teachers or full-time employees • Some people would only pick the bottoms of the trees if they were leaving town, so some workers followed behind to clean up the tops • They had to haul the cherries to Oceana Canning Company in Shelby • Russell and his father started the cherry shaker program in 1957 after Doctor Munger’s son had taken over • Farming has gotten much more advanced today than those days Outstanding Memories – (27:30) • Russell and others would have fun on the sand dunes with their tractors • He contracted work from Pearl Anderson’s lunch stand, and he would sell candy bars and pop to the workers in the fields o He remembers a day when kids were fooling around with his pop selling business The Migrants and Doctor Munger’s Son – (31:37) • Russell’s first girlfriend, Shirley, was from Georgia o Her family came up to pick cherries, and they were a well-off family • He can remember other people that he worked with in the farms • Doctor Munger’s son wasn’t as much of a business man as his father, and the operations defaulted quickly • The Gebheart family bought it, and then Ronny Longcore bought it after that • The orchards got old and were taken out, and the area was developed into cottages Oceana County – (34:33) 3 �Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department • • • • Russell believes the number one factor to the area’s economy is the tourist business, such as Silver Lake and Pentwater o Double JJ Ranch is a boom to the economy too Second in the county is farming o Years ago they did farming manually, but today it is an agribusiness o Farming depends on the weather and the prices o Farmers are more educated today and processing plants help them out too Russell was offered the chance to move and teach in Flint, but he turned it down He was brought up at Knox’s Swamp Doctor Munger and His Wife – (38:08) • His wife, Edith, was involved in the farming operations by keeping the books and being in the payroll car every night • Doctor Munger had a free gas pump for all of his full-time employees • Their old house is now the Oceana Genealogical and Historical Society • Russell remembers a story of his father taking him to visit Doctor Munger’s house when he was young • Russell doesn’t regret being brought up on a farm o He feels sorry for the younger generation today that has so much mental stress as opposed to the physical stress that his generation went through 4 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/bede772e9a327c36fb2f7c7ddd0ad9f3.pdf e185f0342ef269127b736af32da15ae9 PDF Text Text Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department Entrevista de Russell Robbins Tiempo total – (41:17) Entrevistado por Walter Urick, 19 Febrero 2016 (Traducido al espaňol por Kassie O’Brien, May 2016) Antecedentes • Él es hijo de Mason y Dorothy Robbins o Su padre trabajó para el Dr. Munger desde 1946 hasta 1959 • Nació en septiembre de 1941 en Hart, Michigan o De una familia de 9 mujeres y 2 varones • Se graduó de Hart High School en 1960 Historial de trabajo – (1:27) • Desde 1950 hasta 1960 Russell trabajó con su padre durante los veranos en las granjas del Dr. Munger • Compró y asumió una gasolinera en 1960 • Desde 1965 hasta 1972 poseyó un concesionario de Dodge • En 1971 empezó a enseñar a tiempo parcial como maestro de automoción en West Shore Community College en Scottville • Se enseñó a ser una persona técnica o Tomó un curso por correspondencia en 1961 con el National Automotive Service Excellency Group o Ayudó a organizar el examen de la certificación de mecánicos para el estado de Michigan y los procedimientos de la certificación • En 1991 volvió a su negocio porque la universidad eliminó el programa de automoción, y así tuvo un taller independiente hasta 2003 • Después se involucró con Hart Historic District (el distrito histórico de Hart) como voluntario Las operaciones agrícolas del Dr. Munger – (5:40) • En 1950, Dr. Munger poseía 500 acres de cerezas, como uno de los cultivadores de cerezas más grandes del mundo �Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department • • • Russell participó en las operaciones con la poda de los cerezos, la manipulación del abono… pero no recogió las cerezas Se requirió entre 400 y 600 personas trabajando por seis semanas para lograr recoger todas las cerezas La ubicación de los cerezales de Dr. Munger o 12 acres en la calle West Main en Hart, la cual ahora es la calle Plum o 30 acres al oeste en la calle 64, llamada Bray Farm o 80 y 12 acres llamada Clark Farm o 27 acres en la calle Tyler o 144 acres en las calles Poke y 116, llamada McDonald Farm o 80 acres llamada England Farm, donde Russell ayudó a plantar los cerezos o 400 acres en Juniper Beach ▪ Dr. Munger vendía lotes y había personas que construyeron cabañas allí ▪ 164 acres de cerezas en Juniper Beach Como se cosechaban las cerezas – (10:29) • Había dos equipos que tenían entre 250 y 350 personas • Se dividía el trabajo por cerezos en vez de por filas de cerezos • Se ponían las cerezas en cestas • Se pesaban las cerezas y los trabajadores recibieron marcas en sus recibos para denotar la cantidad de cerezas que recogieron • Dr. Munger y su esposa venían en el auto cada día para pagar a los trabajadores o Había un guardia armado con ellos porque pagaron en efectivo y tuvieron entre 6.000 y 12.000 dólares en el auto • Un trabajador recibió $4 si recogió 200 libras con una tasa de 2 centavos por libra • Duró más o menos seis semanas para recoger las cerezas • En un día promedio, 500 personas recogían 70.000-80.000 libras de cerezas • Se recogían y se acarreaban las cerezas, se transportaban las cerezas a la fábrica de conservas, se realizaba la carga y la descarga de las cerezas, y más • En 1954, Floyd Cargill empezó a acarrear las cerezas en tanques de agua en camiones Las personas que recogieron las cerezas – (16:28) • Existía discriminación, así todos los trabajadores eran caucásicos • Dr. Munger iba a la Florida cada año para visitar a la gente y contratarla �Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department • • • • Ningún trabajador era hispano en los años cincuenta Los trabajadores vinieron desde Florida, Georgia, Arkansas, Missouri, y Tennessee Vivían en cabañas pequeñas en varios lugares Russell trabajó allí desde tenía 10 años hasta que tuviera 19 años Un día típico de trabajo – (19:25) • Se podía trabajar desde las seis de la mañana hasta las cinco de la tarde • Había cerca de 300 personas que regresaban a trabajar cada año • El hombre promedio podía recoger 1.000 libras de cerezas por día o Si se le pagó a él y a su familia, ellos podían ganar quizás $75-100 por día • Los campamentos tuvieron un lugar central de agua, pero la gente se bañaba en el Lago Michigan • Siempre tenían que transportar cerca de 500 personas y 200 escaleras • Los supervisores eran maestros o empleados de tiempo completo • Algunas personas solamente recogieron la parte más baja de los cerezos si iban a irse del pueblo, así otros trabajadores venían detrás para recoger las cerezas en la parte más arriba • Tenían que transportar las cerezas a Oceana Canning Company en el pueblo de Shelby • Russell y su padre iniciaron el programa de los agitadores de cerezos en 1957 después de que el hijo de Dr. Munger asumiera las operaciones • La agricultura es más avanzada hoy en día Memorias espectaculares – (27:30) • Russell y otros trabajadores se divirtieron con sus tractores en las dunas de arena • Russell trabajó para el puesto de almuerzo de Pearl Anderson, y vendió barras de chocolate y refrescos a los trabajadores de campo o Recuerda un día en que los niños estaban haciendo el tonto con sus negocios Los migrantes y el hijo de Dr. Munger – (31:37) • Shirley, la primera novia de Russell, era de Georgia o Su familia vino a recoger las cerezas y tenía bastante dinero • Russell puede recordar a otras personas con quien trabajó en los campos �Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department • • • El hijo de Dr. Munger no era hombre de negocios como su padre, y rápidamente las operaciones empezaron a fracasar La familia Gebheart compró las operaciones, y luego Ronny Longcore las compró Se envejecieron y se sacaron los cerezales, y se desarrolló el área para construir cabañas El condado de Oceana – (34:33) • Russell cree que el factor más importante a la economía del área es el turismo, como en Silver Lake y Pentwater o Double JJ Ranch ayuda la economía también • El segundo factor importante en el condado es la agricultura o En el pasado se hizo la agricultura de forma manual, pero hoy en día es agroindustria o La agricultura depende del tiempo y de los precios o Hoy en día los agricultores tienen más educación y tienen la ayuda de las plantas de procesamiento • Se le ofreció la oportunidad de mudarse a Flint para enseñar, pero Russell la rechazó • Él creció cerca de Knox’s Swamp Dr. Munger y su esposa – (38:08) • Su esposa, Edith, fue parte de las operaciones agrícolas porque mantuvo los registros y vino en el auto cada noche para pagar a los empleados • Había una bomba de gasolina al lado de la casa de Dr. Munger, y él permitió que sus empleados de tiempo completo la usaran • Su casa ahora es el Oceana Genealogical and Historical Society • Russell recuerda una historia cuando su padre le llevó a visitar la casa de Dr. Munger cuando era muy joven • Russell no lamenta que creció en una granja o Le inspira lástima la generación joven hoy en día que tiene muchísimo estrés mental a diferencia del estrés físico que enfrentó la generación de Russell � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/43b2e91d58a2b2a44c01efe0c72120ea.mp3 5c6c53bc001b904550cb60e53f600486 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oceana County Migrant Labor History Collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Shell-Weiss, Melanie Description An account of the resource Collection contains images and documents digitized and collected through the project "Growing Community: A Century of Migration in Oceana County." This project was a collaboration between El Centro Hispano de Oceana, the Oceana County Historical and Genealogical Society, and Grand Valley State University funded by a Common Heritage grant from the United States National Endowment for the Humanities. The materials in this collection document the history of communities in Hart, Shelby, and Walkerville and explore themes of migration, labor, religion, family, belonging, national and cultural identities, regional, national, and international connections, and citizenship. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Oceana County (Mich.) Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Grand Valley State University. Kutsche Office of Local History Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Special Collections and University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource El Centro Hispano de Oceana; Oceana County Historical and Genealogical Society Relation A related resource Growing Community (NEH Common Heritage project) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-06 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf image/jpeg audio/mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Image Sound recording Language A language of the resource eng spa Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016 Subject The topic of the resource Oceana County (Mich.) Hart (Mich.) Shelby (Mich.) Farms Farmers Migrant agricultural laborers Hispanic Americans Account books Diaries Oral history Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Robbins, Russell (entrevista de audio y resumen) Descripción Spanish language Description entry Entrevista de historia oral con Russell Robbins. Entrevistado por Walter Urick. Febrero 19, 2016. Russell Robbins nació en septiembre de 1941 en Hart, Michigan. Es hijo de Mason y Dorothy Robbins. Durante los veranos desde 1950 hasta 1960, trabajó con su padre en el cultivo de cerezas del Dr. Munger. Russell participó altamente de varias maneras en las operaciones agrícolas de cerezas, tales como la poda de los cerezos, la venta de refrigerios a los trabajadores de campo, el comienzo del programa de los agitadores de cerezos, y más. Asumió una gasolinera en 1960, y desde 1965 hasta 1972 poseyó un concesionario de Dodge. En 1971 empezó a enseñar a tiempo parcial como maestro de automoción en West Shore Community College. Luego, tuvo un taller independiente hasta 2003. Después se involucró con Hart Historic District (el distrito histórico de Hart) como voluntario, disfrutando de la experiencia gratificante allí. Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Dr. Munger Las operaciones agrícolas de cerezas Automoción Juniper Beach Discriminación El programa de los agitadores de cerezos El turismo Agroindustria Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-06_Robbins_Russell Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Robbins, Russell Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-02-19 Title A name given to the resource Robbins, Russell (audio interview and summary) Description An account of the resource Oral history interview with Russell Robbins. Interviewed by Walter Urick. February 19, 2016. English language recording. Summary in English and Spanish. Russell Robbins was born in September of 1941 in Hart, Michigan. He is the son of Mason and Dorothy Robbins. During the summers from 1950 to 1960, he worked with his dad in Doctor Munger’s cherry farming. Russell was highly involved in the cherry operations in various capacities, such as trimming trees, selling snacks to field workers, beginning the cherry shaker program, and more. He took over a gas station in 1960, and then from 1965 to 1972 he ran a Dodge car dealership. In 1971 he started teaching part-time at West Shore Community College as an automotive instructor. Later, he had an independent shop until 2003. He then got involved in the Hart Historic District as a volunteer, enjoying a very rewarding experience there. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Urick, Walter (interviewer) Shell-Weiss, Melanie (director) Subject The topic of the resource Dr. Munger Cherry farming operations Automotive Juniper Beach Discrimination Cherry shaker program Tourist business Agribusiness Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Growing Community (NEH Common Heritage) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. 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P£..;, £ 1/-4 CO" · SCliOOL 01 ST REV. T14N R1 E HOMER TOWN SHIP s A~II,/ Aw !!a. I Z - 2 1 -c34= N1/2 SEC 2 CD~ RIDtJ/e... LAND USE P.L~M (2.ev• s~~ 'i / ' /g7 , �MIDLAND COUNTY . EQUAUZATION DEP AlTML'IT MIDI.ANO, MICHIGAN '86-'0 NW 5EC CCR HE 5EC CCR 0 I 13- -~ -.< ~ i C' , 41, 200 :;,· ~ ;) ll ., I 0 It'. "' It'. ~ oe "' ( , ~ ~ ~- ,- ~ .. JJ O 800 . ..o, I •- I i:.Jo ~ ...5 p:eo l)U c.t- & p~ T'f 5 TO 12. t:=- N\O~ N &.5 11'4 LINE SCALE. 1•·: 300 ' DRAW H BV f'EO . T14N R1J=" HOMER TOWNSHIP E 1/'4 ALL MI OLANO / 2 . SC HOOL 01 5 T ~ CCR z / -c' 4- V----=-=- N1/2 SEC 1 SAt:INAW R.l).CO~IOo~ LANI> USE fZ~v1<; ~.,D P~N q Ltf f 7 �I 1'4 LI NE. £ 1 / '4 COR Pc, :Jc.r, M r-c cso ,/ I I I I cs / , PC SW <lJ / 5'.J SEC COR S 11'4 COR SC A LE DRAWN T14N R1E . HOMER I ·= BY 300' P.E .G. ALL MIDLAND SCHOOL DI ST , REV. TOWNSHIP /.:: .., / 7"!3 S1/2SEC1 S- Ate /UAW 12-0. Co~P-1 Dal!. L.~Mt> U St PLft\t.a Revcrf!J.. 1 /, / i'7 �NW SEC COR N 1/-4 COR t /4 S::T ZOO I HC cfuss Au-rn S ALVA-C:E I J( / D50 PC ,OC ;oo 070 50 :J[ I 000 50 0 re 2 :50 .,50 r'C. 2 70 \) p< /'C 200 : t 210 oJ N L $ 1/ -4 LI NE SC.ALIE 1~ 300' D"AW N T14NR1E HOMER ~ ~I") ~ ~ "l ~ ~ ,.., I:!.! " W V-4 COR ~ ev P'EG TOWNSHIP HINES 910 MIDLAND SCHOOL DIST ;:, ") ~ l:' /"C. 32,0 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Wyckoff Planning and Zoning Collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Planning & Zoning Center (Lansing, Mich.) (Organization) Wyckoff, Mark A. Description An account of the resource Municipal master plans and zoning ordinances from across the state of Michigan, spanning from the 1960s to the early 2020s. The bulk of the collection was compiled by urban planner Mark Wyckoff over the course of his career as the founder and principal planner of the Planning and Zoning Center in Lansing, Michigan. Some additions have been made to the collection by municipalities since it was transferred to Grand Valley State University. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Michigan Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1960/2023 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/870">Planning and Zoning Center Collection (RHC-240)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/NoC-US/1.0/">No Copyright - United States</a> Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Comprehensive plan publications Master plan reports Zoning--Michigan Zoning--Maps Maps Land use--planning Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-240 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Language A language of the resource eng Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Homer-Charter-Twp_Master-Plan-for-the-M-20-&-Saginaw-Rd-Corridors'-Land-Use_1987 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Robert B. Hotaling & Associates Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1987-09 Title A name given to the resource Master Plan for the M-20 & Saginaw Rd. Corridors' Land Use Description An account of the resource The Master Plan for the M-20 & Saginaw Rd. Corridors' Land Use for Homer Charter Township was prepared by Robert B. Hotaling & Associates in November 1985 and was revised in February 1987. Subject The topic of the resource Master plan reports Homer Charter Township (Mich.) Midland County (Mich.) Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/870">Planning and Zoning Center Collection (RHC-240)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/NoC-US/1.0/">No Copyright - United States</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d1b8ea2e351834f48e33fca8a8353f26.pdf 85173b75151ba36fe1e867dc2945bfc3 PDF Text Text S~OCK3~~JGE TCW\SHI? I ng:1c.::1 Coun: ·.1 !'12.ch:.ga:1 , •· prepared fo:::: Planni:19 Commission Stockbridge Township prepared by: Ro bert 8. Hotaling, PCP#2 Planning Consultant Re v ised: Feb::-uary 19:1 0 �1989 AMENDMENTS to the MASTER PLAN BACKGROUND INFORMATION Fifteen years ago the Stockbridge Township Planning Commission prepared and adopted the 1975 Master Plan for the Township. A 1985 review of this Plan and the Zoning Ordinance in effect were reviewed and it was determined both needed updating. The amendments contained in this report update the Master Plan and form the basis for updating both the Zoning Ordinance Text and Zoning District Map. This amending report contains the following updated information: Page No. Social Characteristics Population Trends Population Projections Age Composition Table No. 2 - Age Composition Households Social Characteristics Education Labor Characteristics Occupations Income Table No. 3 Industry: Employed Table No. 4 Occupational Category 5 & 10 6 7 9 9 & 8 & 10 & 10 13 10 13 12 12 14 11 11 Natural Resource Base General Characteristics of Soils Agriculture Woodland Resource Development Wetlands Residential and Other Development Table No. l -Potential Areas of Conflict over Land Uses Based on Soil Characteristics Map No. l - Major Soil Associations found in Stockbridge Township P. A. 116 Acreage 1975-1985 15 15 17 17 18 18 20 16 Traffic Volume Trends in the Stockbridge Township Area 1958-1985 Surrounding Major Urban Areas 30 29 Planning Standards for Roads and Highways 36 19 �1975 MASTER PLAN TABLE OF CONTENTS PREFACE . . . . . . . .. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 INTRODUCTION . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . • . . . • . . . . . . . . . . . . . Policy Planning Figure 1 - Profile of the Planning Process 2 2 4 BACKGROUND . . . . • . • . . . • . . . . . • . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . • . 5 Population Growth & Housing Trends Population Projection Chart Land Use Patterns Transportation Figure 2 - Existing Land Use Environmental Considerations Figure 3 - Traffic Figure 4 - Open Water Figure 5 - Wetlands Figure 6 - Vegetation Figure 7 - Open Water, Wetlands, Vegetation Figure 8 -Topography Figure 9 - Land Capability POLICIES . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Land use Environment PLANNING STANDARDS Guidelines for Growth Environment Streets & Highways Land Use: Residential Schools Commercial Industrial Parks 5 7 27 29 28 20 31 24 23 22 25 21 26 32 32 33 35 35 35 35 35 37 38 38 38 MASTER PLAN. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 43 IMPLEMENTATION . • . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ �Page No. Development Standards for Land Use Categories 39 Rural Land Uses Agricultural Land Uses Resource Conservation & Development Land Uses 39 39 39 Urban Land Uses 40 Urban Residential Land Uses Community Service Commercial Land Uses Light Industrial Land Uses Zoning Memorandum: Critique of the Stockbridge Township Zoning Ordinance 40 41 42 46-55 �PREFACE Stockbridge Township is located in the southeastern corner of Ingham County, Michigan, and surrounds the Village of Stockbridg~. The Village, located at the intersection of Highways M-52 and M-106, had a population of 1,190 in 1970, and 1,213 in 1980, less than that of the Township which was 1,336 in 1970 and 2,840 in 1980. Stockbridge Township is located almost In the center of a triangle formed by Ann Aber, Jackson and Lansing between the two major east-west Interstate highway~ which traverse the state, 1-9~ and 1-96. those working in the Townsh i p is agriculture. The major occupation of However, many residents commute to Chelsea, Jackson, Lansing and Ann Arbor to work In blue collar skilled trades, and professional jobs. Farming in the Township is very productive. and muck is found throughout the area. A great deal of black dirt Onions and mint have been good crops, and recently the growing of lettuce has become more popular. Sod farming has probably become the dominant soil crop ln the past four years. However, In addition to these crops, there are significant amounts of corn and beans, as well as dairy farming. Al 1 but a smal 1 portion of the Township 1 ies within the Stockbridge School t M l �INTRODUCTION The mast e r planning process is the main way for citizens to guide the growth of their community. Planning is an investment in the future, and with up-to-date zoning, it is insuraance against problems created by haphazard growth. Unguided urban invasion of a rural township wastes tax dollars, farm land, and water. It results in land use conflicts such as those arising when businesses and residences are established next to each other. Often, it impairs farming. This in turn impairs local businesses that serve farmers. Planning for a township, like planning for an individual or family, i? nothing more than wise use of foresight. Experienced planners foresee future problems, needs and objectives, and chart their courses years in advance. The planning process moves through four basic steps. The first step is to collect background information or facts concerning present township resources and characteristics. Often in con- junction with this step, or as the second step, development policies are determined. These policies set the style and direction for step three, the Plan. The final step in the plan - ning process is to implement the Plan. There is no point in conducting planning if no effort is made to implement the plans. The chart which follows illustrates the steps of the planning process. POLICY PLANNING Policy statements have come into widespread use as decision-making tools in government as well as private industry. The policy planning process is based upon the assumption that some kind of community-wide concensus of planning goals and development policies must be arrived at before realistic plans for future growth can be prepared. It further assumes that once growth goals have been agreed upon, a master plan for future growth will be more readily used by community leaders because it reflects previously accepted policies and goals. 2 �Policy plans can also serve as new instruments which guide the evolution of a particular community by brining the social, . physical, economic and political considerations into more . meaningful focus. In addition to their function in Master Planning, policies have many other practical advantages as deicision-making guides. Some advantages of complete policy statements are: I. Aid to Public Understanding and Participation: The straight-forward character of the pol icy statement aids public understanding of the planning process and how goals for the cornnunity are to be achieved. 2. Consistency: Clearly stated policies covering all concerns of compre- hensive planning can do much to minimize the possibility of arbitrary planning decision-making. 3. Efficiency: When a growing community is frequently confronted with problems of a recurrent nature, clearly stated policies may reduce the amount of time spent on an individual project without lowering the quality of planning recommendations. 4. Coordination: The Pol icy Plan creates a single framework within which all aspects of government may act in concert on development proposals. S. Stability: A Pol icy Plan is general by nature and thus provides an element of stability as specific proposals of the master plan are rrodlfied over time. 6. Guide to Decision-Making and Review: The Pol icy Plan is helpful as a guide in adopting land use controls, and to the courts In judging the fairness of specific controls in the context of an overal I goal structure for community development. 3 �PROFILE OF PLANNING PROCESS BASIC STUDIES • I• BACKGROUND STUDIES A GENERAL REVIEW OF LOCAL SITUATION-PROBLEMS, NEEDS, POTENTIAL, HIS TOR· ICAL PERSPfCTIVE,ETC. • DATA INVENTORY 1 2 3 4 POPULATION STUDY ECONOMIC BASE STUDY LAND USE STUDY TRANSPORTATION STUDY ·5 OPEN SPACE, RECREAT•ON, CONSERVATION STUDY 8 GOV'T'L I COMMUNITY FACILITIES STUDY t • GOALS 1 2 3 4 5 POLICIES OBJECTIVES ASSUMPTIONS PRINCIPLES STANDARDS IMPLEMENT PHYSICAL PLAN POLICY PLAN t • DESIGN 1 GENERATE ALTERNATIVE SOLUTIONS OR PLANS 2 EVALUATE ALTERNATIVES 3 SELECT IDEAL t • IMPLEMENTATION 1 ESTABLISH PRIORITIES 2 FINANCING 3 TIMING • ADMINISTRATION 1 PUT PLANS INTO EFFECl 2 RE-EVALUATE, SUGGEST REVISIONS • ANALYSIS-SYNTHESIS 1 DATA EVALUATION 2 SPACE NEEDS 3 FORECASTING PLANNING CONSUL TANT SERVICES INCORPORATED 520 CHERRY STREET LANSING MICHIGAN 489JJ �SOCIAL CHARACTERISTICS BACKGROUND A wide variety of background information has been collected and analyzed which relates to Stockbridge Township. This includa.s data on population growth, general demographic characteristics, housing characteristics, and natural resource or environmental conditions. • POPULATION GROWTH AND HOUSING TRENDS The population of Stockbridge Township increased by onlv 2.7 percent from 1960-1970, a growth rate less than any of the surrounding townships except White Oak on the north. The same holds true _if growth figures for the Village of Stockbridge are combined with those of the township. In such case growth occurred at about 4 percent from 1960-1970. Over the same period Ingham County grew 23.5 percent. Stockbridge Township growth contrasts with that of adjacent.townships as shown in the following Table. Between 1970 and 1980 Stockbridge Township and all other townships in the area accelerated their growth over the 1960-1970 decade. 1975 TABLE 1 STOCKBRIDGE AREA GROWTH 1960-1970 1960-70 % Change 1970-80 % Change 23.5% 2.7 8.5 13.9 11. 6 -12.5 5.5% 15.4 1. 9 22.5 31. 8 25.3 Jackson County Waterloo Township 8.5% 9.2 5.7% 36.7 Livingston County Iosco Township Unadilla Township 54.2% 15.9 47.5 70.1% 75.8 Washtenaw County Lyndon Township 35.8% 32.4 13.1% 49.8 Ingham County Stockbridge Township Village of Stockbridge Bunker hill Township Ingham Township White Oak Township All indications are that growth is coming to Stockbridge Township from the east, from Detroit and Ann Arbor most likely. Since road access to Stockbridge Township from the east is not as efficient as it is to many communities lying along I-94 or I-96, this may be one reason for the less than dramatic growth. However, this past trend appears to be making a significant shift in the 1970's based upon recent construction activity. However, between 1970 and 1980 there was a significant increase in population growth from the Lansing-East Lansing area to the northwest as indicated by the traffic pattern changes. s �Assuming a growth rate of 5% per year, Stockbridge Township must begin to plan for the Introduction of 215 new households between 1970 and 1980. Year Births • 1970 1971 1972 25 43 44 ,915' TABLE 4 NATURAL INCREASE OF POPULATION Deaths Change/1000/Poeul. Net Chan9e 4 +21 +15.7 +34 +25. 1 9 4 +40 +28.9 % Change +1 .2% +2.5% +2.9% (Average 2.2%) 5 ANNUAL MIGRATION RATE INTO STOCKBRIDGE TOWNSHIP Determined by calculating growth based upon building permits and subtracting natural increase. 4.46% 1970 1971 0.89% 1972 0.99% 4.46% 1973 (Average 2.7%) TABLE I 51 , 868,000 Un i ted States 6,407,000 Mich igan 172,941 Ingham County 1,044 Stockbr idge Township 1,098 Stockbridge Village 19 15' TABLE 6 POPULATION TRENDS 1960 1970 179,975,000 203,805,000 7,834,000 8,901,000 2 1 1, 290 26 1 , 039 1,363 1,336 1,097 1, 190 1950-70 % Change +34.2% +38.9% +51.0% +28.0% + 8.4% -- 1980 220,099,000 9,207,000 270,520 2,840 1,213 Population Trends in Stockbrid9e ToMn9hip 1960 Stockbrid9e InC3ha■ 1970 'l Change 1980 " Change 2,460 2,526 2.7 2,914 15.5 211,296 261,039 23.7 275,520 5.5 8,875,083 13.4 9,262,078 4.4 County l1ichi9an ~ Pogulation Trends - I'-<:.~ Stockbrid9~ Township has experienced a steady increase in population since 1960 when the population was 2,460. Bet..,.en 1960 and 1970, the Township's population 9rew by only 66 person9 (2.7~>. Over the next 10 years, however, the population increas•d by 15'1 or 288 persons. Durin9 the 1970's, Stockbrid9e 9rew at a rate 3 ti~•s faster than In9hn County and the State. 6 1.9 �141.~ TABLE 2 STOCKBRIDGE TOWNSHIP BUILDING ACTIVITY 1970 - 1973 Type Unit S i ng 1e Fam i 1y Two Fam i 1y Mu 1tip I e Fam i I y .!1ZJ... 1970 21 10 1972 14 2 O 0 0 O O 1973 27 0 0 As can be seen from Table 2 above, as of last January there have already been This is an increase of about 5% per 74 new houses constructed since 1970, year, almost twice the growth rate each year as occurred in the last ten years together. In 1970 the number of persons per household in Stockbridge Township averaged 3,839, Thro~gh the use of this figure and projecting construction trends it is possible to estimate future population. 1975' TABLE 3 POPULATION PROJECTION - STOCKBRIDGE TOWNSHIP Year Popu 1at ion Households 1970 1971 1972 1973 1974 1975 1,336 1,416 I ,462 I ,516 l ,620 1,700 348 369 381 395 422 443 6.0% 3.25% 3.68% 6.85% Aver. 4.95% 1980 1985 2, l 63 2,754 563 717 4.95% 4.95% 1990 1995 3,501 4,457 I, 161 912 4.95% 4.95% 2000 5,673 I ,478 % Chan5e Buildin5 Permits 21 12 14 27 N.A. N .A. 4.95% Developed based upon projecting growth rate from 1970 to 1974 and population population per household (3.839) in 1970. Based upon the information contained in Table 3, the average annual growth rate in the Township since 1970 has been approximately 5% per year. If this trend continues at the same pace, the population of the Township will be approximately 1,700 in 1975, and 2,163 in 1980. Such rapid growth may result in increased costs for services and land. The natural increase makes up about 45% of the growth while migration into the area accounts for about 55% of growth. (See Tables 4 and 5. ). The actual 1980 population count in Stockbridge Township was 2,840, which was a 112.6% increase over 1970. �STOCKBRIDGE TWP. POPULATION PROJECTION sooo------------------------------------Z00<.. 4000 1----.....-------.....-------+--------+--------1-------l'~"""-~b\ •,,, = I"'~· 3_,3ofi /&f9o fl 0 -,c f 1/ 30001---_._--------1----------+-------1----------+---,-.....,.::;.._.....-L-_..,_ •••• ♦ /ls ......,...,.~-+-'---------- 20001---.....-------+-------+-------+--......,.... 1( ,ooob~~=t-+--+ 1940 1950 1960 1970 1980 1990 Peculation Proj1tctions - 198-9 Dftlo9raphic statistics 9ath•r.d aver the last two decades have shown that people havl! been aovin9 to rural areas and Ctffllaunities. The economic conditions during the early 1980's slowed dawn this 1t0vnent; but, th• last several years has seen a r•surgenc• o-f this pattern. Stockbridge Township with easy access to the Ann Arbor area and only a slightly lon9•r distance to Detroit business centers is an attractive plac• to live. In- ■ i9ration should continue for the next decade (a reason.able ti ■- period). The rate of growth will depend an a nuaber of factors includinq availability of land for haNt sites in environm•ntally appealing areas, accessibility to public services, and econ011ic opportunities within a reasonable driving distance. A reasonable usuaptian would be that the population will continue to increase at a rate between 10 and 1~ percent. At this rat•, 291 to 436 would move into the ToMnship during the 1980's and by 2000, the population could reach approxi ■ately 3,800 persons. 8 �1 975 TABLE 7 POPULATION BY AGE AND SEX (. 19 7v) Vi 11 a9e On 1:t Under 5 Years Old 5 - 9 Yea rs O1d 10 - 14 Years Old 15 - 19 Years Old 20 - 24 Years Old 25 - 29 Years Old 30 - 34 Years Old 35 - 39 Years Old 40 - 44 Years Old 45 - 49 Years Old 50 - 54 Years Old 55 - 59 Years Old 60 - 64 Years Old 65 - 84 Years Old Over 84. Years Old Townshie Onl:t M F M F 49 49 65 67 46 37 33 22 29 38 31 36 26 35 54 54 67 43 28 28 25 35 37 26 39 24 86 24 71 96 89 72. 43 39 34 48 41 37 29 36 22 42 2 52 83 83 75 38 39 44 38 34 26 36 26 17 37 1 so 13 1989 Tabl• No. 2 (1 C}8v) F@fflal• T. Fe111ale A91t Total <5 239 123 51 5 - 9 276 144 52 10 - 14 280 123 46 15 - 19 300 162 54 20 - 24 200 106 53 25 - 29 223 114 51 30 - 34 198 100 51 35 - 39 199 104 52 40 - 44 161 86 53 45 - 49 141 63 45 50 - 54 128 63 49 55 - 59 129 62 48 60 - 64 116 54 47 65 - 69 112 60 54 70 - 74 72 44 61 > 140 89 6~ ~ 9 �t The ■edian ag• in th• Township in 1980 was 28.4, higher than the county's •edian age of 2,.3. N•arly 34i o+ the Township's population is under the age of 18 and another 11\ are 6~ years and over. The population distribution is displayed in Table 2. In all but four age groups, the number of fntales slightly exceed the number of •ales. The population appears to be well balanced in that there does not appear to b• an out-•i9ration of young people. The Township will need to provide a ■ ix of services (schools, health service9, and recreation, for exa■ ple> to ■ eet the comaunity's population. Social Characteristics -1~a9 Exaaination of social characteristics assists in understanding the stability of a com■unity, its ability to adapt to change and identifying future land use needs. According to the 1980 census, 69\ of the Township's residents were born in Michigan. This is approxiaately equal to the state average of 78\. Of the person 5 years and over, 58\ lived in the same house since 1975 and an additional 18\ have liv•d Nithin Ingha■ County but ■oved to Stockbridge between 1975 and 1980. Only 3\ of the residents ca■• fro• outside the State of Michigan. These figures suggest that the Township's population is relatively stable. Approxiaately 111 (84) of the households with children were headed by fe■ales. Over half o+ th•s• hous•holds, the children Mere over the age of six. Of the 324 p•rsons over 65, only a fe" were living alone. The re•aining population characteristics suggest that this is a very fa■ ily oriented coaaunity and the social organizations reflect this arran9eaent. 10 �1g1< TABLE 8 LABOR FORCE 14 YEARS OLD AND OVER BY SEX Township Including Vil !age M In Armed Forces In Labor Force, Employed Profes~ional, Technical Managers, Administrators Sa 1es Workers Clerical and Kindred Workers Craftsmen and Kindred Workers Operatives, Except Transport 1'ransport Equipment Operatives Laborers, Except Farm Farmers and Farm Managers Farm Laborers and Farm Foremen Service, Except Household Private Household Workers Occupation Not Reported In Labor Force, Unemployed Not in Labor Force Under 65 Years Old Over 65 Years Old F 0 0 648 347 41 25 58 6 23 4 23 116 6 92 149 32 50 6 7 4 44 78 0 17 23 38 499 388 61 58 12 40 254 186 68 13 111 '. ~ ~ j Table No. 4 Occupational Cat~ory t1anac,er i al and Prc-fe5sional -"190 _!_ 18 Techn i c:al, Sales, Adnti n. Support 274 2~ Sef'vic:t Oc:c:upations 102 9 91 8 Prtch ion Production, CraH. 1,1 14 Op•rators, Fab.-icato.-s 27~ 26 Far ■ in9 19 99 Table No. 3 Industry: Employed ...!L ___Af3r i c:u 1ture Construction Nanu-facturin9 Transportation Co11■unic:ations Whal•sal• Trad• Retail Trad• 78 43 401 23 24 19 126 -L 7 4 37 2 2 2 12 ...!L Finance, Insurance 44 Business 42 Racreation 29 Pro.fessional 229 <Education 122 Health 65) Public Ad ■ inistration 22 11 _!_ 4 4 3 21 2 �t~1S TABLE 9 PLACE OF WORK Township Including Vil !age • Clinton County Eaton County Ingham County Lansing City Ce n t r a 1 Bu s i n e s s Di s t r i c t Remainder of Lansing City Rema in der of Ingham County Other Counties 0 0 632 50 0 50 582 289 Occ:upa ti ans - 1 <, Sj . Workers living in Stockbridge Township Nere e•ployed in a variety of industries, as listed in Table 3. The lar9est industrial group was ■ anu+acturing (37~> folloNed by professional (211> with the educational services the predominate ntployer and retail trade c12,>. Agriculture is a •ajor sector with 78 persons eflployed in that industry. The census also categorizes workers by the type of work being per+ormed. This information (Table 4) provides insight into how balanced the eaployflent base is Nithin th• co~ ■ unity. The co•■ unity is not coflposed of a li•ited number o+ occupations; rather, a 900d ■ ix exists. Stockbridge has a solid econo•ic base fro■ which to build for the future. The average driving time to work in 1980 Nas reported as 21 ■ inutes. People in this C019fflunity appear Nilling to drive so■ e distance to Nork. This pattern r~lects the pattern of ■ i9ration to rural areas by urban-suburban work force Labor Characteristics - r; =J The strength of the co1111unity can be ■easured by the number of people in the labor force, household incc■ e, and the dyna■ ics of the econo■ ic base. Based on census fiqures for 1979, 70~ of the ■ en and 4~ of the Noaen, over the age of 16 participated in the labor force. Only 13' of the families had no members NOrking in 1979. Nearly 43' of the faJ1ilies had two or More sage earners. The une111ploy ■ ent r"atet in Stockbrid<3e was 9.1'1 in 1980., The figure for NOmen was lower at 6.4~. Thn• figures were ■uch loNer than the statewide avera9e of 111.. 12 �1,p; TABLE I 0 EDUCATION, BY SEX Township Including Village M F Persons Over 24 Who Have Completed 0-8 Years Grade School 1-3 Years High School 4 Years High School 1-3 Years College 4 Years Co 11 ege Over 4 Years College 222 117 207 56 26 29 177 101 228 68 21 9 Education Sixty-nine (691 percent of the Township's residents ov•r the age of 25 have high school and 111 have co•pleted four years cf college. These figures are very sinilar to the statewide avera9es of 681 and 14~, respectively. co■ pleted \91S' TABLE II POPULATION ANO HOUSING TRENDS, 1940 - 1970 Stockbridge Village Population Percent Change Male Fema 1e Housing Units Owner Occupied Renter Occup i ed Vacant 1940 852 * * * * * * 1950 1098 28.9 541 557 291 181 75 35 1960 1097 1970 1190 8.5 585 605 380 290 69 21 -•I 537 560 346 265 62 19 \9 7 5 Stockbridge Township 1940 763 * * * * * * 1960 1363 30.6 709 654 343 235 80 28 1950 1044 36.8 549 495 329 242 79 8 1970 1336 -2.0 707 629 400 280 63 52 TABLE 14 HOUSING UNITS Vi I !age Only Renter Owner Occupied Units in Structures With 1 Unit 2 Units 3-9 Units 9 or More Units Mobile Home 42 17 0 9 l Township Only Renter Owner 280 58 .8 5 0 0 0 2 0 5 Vi l. Vacant Year-Round Units For Rent For Sale Only Rented or Sold Not Occup i ed For Occas i ona 1 Use Other Vacant 245 1 0 a 34 Twp. 2 4 I 3 0 0 2 18 5 2 Hauseholds - 19€ j The nu ■ber of households in th• Township was 900 in 1980. The average number of p•rsons per household was 3.18. In fiUlily situations, the average size was 3.48. 13 �1'}7r' TABLE 12 SELECTED POPULATION CHARACTERISTICS 1960 - 1970 STOCKBRIDGE TOWNSHIP (INCLUDING VILLAGE) 1970 1960 10,213 5,369 Median Family Income 12.0 10.3 Median Yea r s Education 1,073 867 Labor Foree 648 605 Employed, Male 347 213 Fema 1e 818 995 Total 40 4-1 Unemployed, Male 38 8 Female 78 49 Total l'j1:> TABLE 13 INCOME (TOWNSHIP INCLUDING VILLAGE) Unrelated Individual Under S1 , 000 S 1 , 000 - $ 2,999 43 32 S 3,000 - $ 4,999 S 5,000 - $ 6,999 S 7,000 - S 8,999 S 9,000 - $11,999 $12,000 - $24,999 Over $24,999 21 9 13 4 4 0 Family 7 46 49 69 67 140 193 26 Th• 1980 ••dian fa•ily incc•• for th• Town5hip Wa!I S21,836 or a per capita inca•• of 97,5~9 (all fi9ur•s reported in 1979 dollars). The median family incone is higher than the state"id• ■ edian income of Sl9,223 reported for the 5ame period. It Mas estimated that 111 of the population were below the established 1979 poverty level. This corresponded to 10~ of the families. Nearly all th• faailies under th• poverty line had children and 42~ of the units were headed by a fe■al• single parent. While the socio-economic profile indicates a robust co•■unity, these does exist a low incoae 9roup who may require . certain services fro• th• con11t1nity. 14 �1')8'7 NATURAL RESOURCE BASE Soil charact~ristics provide information on the type of land that are appropriate, or not appropriate for a particular area. Data obtained from the 1979 Ingham County Soil Survey by the Soil Conservation Service CU.S.D.A.> indicate that Stockbridge Township has soils that are suitable for agricultural production, forest management, and residential/commercial dev•lopment. There are s o i l s ~ , however, best left undeveloped because of high water tables. uses A general overview of the soil patterns for the township can be obtained by exaainin9 the major soil associations. A soil association is a group of _soils which share very similar characteristics. Four ~ajor soil associations are found throughout the township with the Oshtemo-Houghton-Riddles association C4 on Map 1> being the major association. The Marlette-Capac-Owosso association <2> can be described as nearly level - to rolling, well drained to somewhat poorly drained soils. This association is mainly used for cropland with major limitations being soil erosion and excess water. In general, other ~ajor land uses that are appropriate for this association include woodland, recreation, and for sanitary facilities and building sit.es. Wetness is the major limitation for some soils in this series which would reduce the potential for these soils to support recreation or development activities. The Houghton-Palms-Edwards association (3) is primarily composed of muck soils that are poorly drained. These soils are common around lakes and in drainageways. This association is primarily used for cropland, woodland, or wildlife habitate. Wetness, flooding, and unstable soil material are the major limitations to the use of these soils. Many of these soils are often in areas that are considered to be wetlands because o+ peer drainage. In placed in cultivation, these soils are particularly suited for specialty crops. These sci ls have very poor potential for development. While scattered throughout the township, these soils represent a small proportion of the total township's acreage. The Oshte~o-Hou9hton-Riddles association (4), the most comm~on association within the township, can be described as level to hilly, well drain•d to poorly drained, sandy, loamy and Muck soils. In other words, a combination of a wide variety of soils possessing a range of characteristics. this association is best suited for cropland and woodlands. The major limitations facing farmers are erosion, wetness, and in some cases drou9htiness. The Houghton portion of the series is lar9•ly woodland but if properly drained can be productive. Oshtemo soils 9enerate better yields if irrigated. Only the Houghton soils face major limitations +or recreation and development. Oshtemo and Riddles soils have good potential for development with proper santitary facilities incorporated in the site development. The final association, the Marlette-Oshtemo-Capac (6), only appears in a limited area in the northwest port.ion of the township. 15 �'P.A. 11'- Ac.u11e,,: Pu.tl"I.I 0 ANO W"t-tAIM. -os: · ~ 'GIP I iO 811\twC~ \'tiS - IC\ 8S' lbO . 0 ll'iSiilii:"~:;;,:=m ~~l!IJl!lll~~~~-f-- ~ ~ ~ - . - . - - , - . ,. 1, : .· _ , .- , O , ~;;"} '-~Jtf\_·: _J .· 3 2-, 0 / ~f< ~ill; / 0 ; _.,..- , ,/ ~~ :7.t ' · ... . _., ~ -----s . c~~~it ---- ccmDrLETi g,y ... .. 16 _..,_ - P. CAUlNCK.. �This series are considered to be level to steep, well draine<i to poorly drained loamy and sandy soils. Cropland is the major use for these soils with some areas suitable for woodlands. The major limitations are erosion, wetness, and in some cases, drou9htiness. Recreation and buildin9 sites are appropriate for selected soils with the Cap~c soils presentin9 the bi99est limitation to more intensive devlop,nent or uses. Each series is composed of specific soil units. Each of these units display sli9htly different features. Thus, some soils within an association may be more suitable for a particular use than another. Each soil's potential for different types of uses were mapped separately. The accompanying maps identify land suitable for wetlands, agriculture, woodland mana9ement, and residential development. AGRICULTURE - 1989 Soils have been rated in terms of their productivity (yield) under proper management without regard to costs. Proper management refers to operator actions which serve to overcome natural soil limitations such as high water through drainage. Four catagories have been desi9nated en Map 2. Areas where a9ricultural production is very limited er should net take place have been le+t blank. These areas are primarily lands adjacent to the rivers or low lands or have been altered by man for developMental purposes. Areas that are designated by slanted lines have below average productivity and are seriously affected by high water tables and infertile soils. Land marked with dots are considered average to above average yield areas. These areas are located throughout the township but are in close proximity to the soils highly suitable for agricultural production. The most · productive farmland, desi9nated by the solid black area9, is found throughout the township with the highest concentration of acreage in the southwest sections, upper middle sections, and the eastern sections. The potential for agricultural production is very 900d. However, the decision to cultivate these soils is dependent on economic conditions and the m•n•gement level the farmer is willin9 to inj@Ct into his/her operation. Agriculture has been a depressed sector of the .conomy during ~uch of the 1980'5. With returns low, the costs of maintainin9 this land in production may exceed returns for some farmers. New soil erosion le9islation may also in+luence how some farmers operate their farms in the future. WOODLAND RESOURCE DEVELOPMENT-l587 Production of various species as ccmaercial trees is possible throughout parts of the town5hip. Areas designated in black on Map~ are not suitable for production purposes. Areas marked with slanted lines have several major limitations while dots indicate soils with minor limitations for woodland production. In 5ome parts of the Township the major management concerns are hi9h seedling mortality, erosion, and equipment inaccessibility. 17 �Uncolored areas have few limitations for woodland production. Generally the conifers are the best species to plant. Some areas are more suited for planting of hardwoods including ash, red maple, s~camore, and walnut. The darkly colored areas on Map 4 serve to identify lands highly suitable for wetlands. Some of these areas may have been drained for a9ricultural purposes; but left unmanaged could possibly revert to wetland habitat. These designated areas extend beyond the true wetlands (standing water for all or part of the year> because of the hi9h water table, in some areas. The majority of these lands are adjacent to the streams and lakes, but are spread extensively throughout the township. These lands are subject to severe restrictions on development according to the State wetland protection act. RESIDENTIAL AND OTHER DEVELOPMENT- 1~99 Flooding and the high water table present the biggest limitations for building sites without going into high additional costs to overcome these major limitations. Steep slopes also pose a problem in some areas. Two soil characteristics are important when considering development. The ability of the soil to support buildings (bearin9 capacity) and septic tanks. The suitability of soils for foundations is basically a characteristic of its substratum. Critical soil features include frost heave, depth-to-groundwater, and shrink-swell potential. In rural areas, septic tanks are the primary method of disposing of household and commercial wastes. Soil permeability and depth-togroundwater are important features to consider in permitting development. Soils with high water tables or slow permeability are poor sites for development because septic tanks do not properly function in these type of soils. The problems center on the soil's ability to absorb the effluent. Steep slopes can cause lateral seepage, resulting in effluents emerging on the surface. High water tables can cause effluent to runoff into surface water rather than be absorbed. If the soils are draughty, then effluent can be absorbed too quickly, causing pollution to groundwater. Septic tank failure can lead to surface and groundwater pollution. With public concern over pollution expressed in terms of environmental laws, serious attention must be given to the suitability of soils for septic tanks. Many of the problems can be mitigated through a lowering of the ground water table or altering the size of the absorption field, for example. Regardless, there are soils which should not be developed at all. These factors have been combined in order to classify soils as to their suitability for development. Solid colored areas on Map S indicate areas that are suitable for all types of development. This means that the soils can support both buildings and septic tanks. While these areas are spread throughout the township, there are a number of areas that could be developed. Dotted areas face only moderate limitations Hith regards 18 �to foundations and septic tanks. The areas designated with the slanted lines face only moderated building limitations but may have severe limitations for septic tanks. All other areas are not suitable for development because of severe soil limitations have been left white. Because of the extent of unsuitable soils, development in the township is somewhat restricted unless large capital outlay9 are made to correct the problems. To summarize, soils in Stockbridge Township can be put to a variety o+ uses. In some cases different uses will compete for the some land areas. Uses which are likely to compete are woodland management and agriculture. There is little competition between a9riculture and development, assuming no substantial economic investment to overcome major limitations for development purposes. Table 1 hi9hli9hts the competition between various uses st ictly from the perspective of soil characteristics. The larger the circle. the more suitable the soils are for competing uses. 1989 Potential Areas of Conflict over Land Uses Based on Soil Characteristics TABLE 1. AGRICULTURE T A .B WETLANDS FORESTRY SI SIM HP P , ,, / , Belo-;/ / / / ,/ / Poor WETLANDS 0 ~ C 0 FORESTRY 0 Slight 0 SI /Md • O· 0 Moderate Poor • 0 0 DEVELOPMENT Sli9ht Moderat@ (J 0 Sev/Mod 0 Sever@ 0 0 0 0 Q 0 0 0 0 • 0 0 0 19 0 0 0 �MAP 1. MAJOR SOIL ASSOCIATIONS FOUND IN STOCKBRIDGE TOWNSHIP -!~89 ~ -.......J6.~+-~101.\ --.-__,;Ill . -· 2 - MARLETTE-CAPAC-OWASSO 3 - HOUGHTON-PALMS-EDWARDS 4 - OSHTEMO-HOUGHTON-RIDDLES 6 - MARLETTE-OSHTEMO-CAPAC ENVIRONMENTAL CONSIDERATIONS - 197..S- With the use of infrared aerial photographs several critical environmental factors were mapped. This information is particularly valuable considering the fact that modern soils information is not readily available. Our mapping highlights open water, wet lands, and vegetation of significance. Having identified these critical areas it may be possible to restrict development to insure their preservation or at least carefully managed use. As is shown In Figures 4, 5 and 6 these areas of wetland and vegetation cover a broad expanse of Stockbridge Township. By combining this information onto one map (Figure 7) it is possible to see the total area of land which warrants special atten- tion due to its environmental condition. A visual field inspection reveals that much of the wet land is farmed as soils are largely muck and peat. Therefore a dual purpose exists in protecting these lands, namely that of encouraging agriculture as wel 1 as sound environmental planning. The topography of the land has also been mapped to determine drainage patterns and relative slope. (See Figure 8, Topography.) Constcuction should be control led on excessive slopes to avoid soil erosion problems. A careful study of drainage patterns and topography will reveal those areas which must naturally be developed as units. 20 �F ,, tc:: 4) 0, :► •C ~ •. < a: i., ~ ~ I Q 0 ~ 0 ~ 1 ••c:. ,:, 0 a: ~ ~ -- II Q. c,, :2 ,_ · - cC: .0 .i= C: •J .:.: en C (.) ~ -r ~ 0 .., (J) / ~ ~ l a, Q. > ~ '0 -0 =- C: ::l - ! :I : ~ ; I/} --/ 1- 21 t~f-l <_S' . --:r-_- ) ~ i - ~-J t~ ,,~ 1= �22 �fi r C1) 1, C) :2 0. a, .,_ • - C • •C - J ;I ;! c (I) C CJ C .! oJa.,.. 0 ,::,i::, j .!! l I -'I:: ] ,:, ! .ll .C ~ en~ i~ m -in le:: '1 -: -! ~ -I i! J ~ i t=mi ;:• ,-..,. ( f~ ' / $-..s- . '-----1"l _,, ·~~ I .,.__;, 'WE.TLAld>.S 23 It) ~ t 7 ----'t l f-i �ji Cl) a> ... .! 3 ! C l 0• ~ :52 C. g, ..0 .Cc ~·- J • A .::,(. U, C (J 0 C ca ~ Q. > i:, -0 u5 ~ ;.: JI - a, ·~ 1, 1, ,: i :I •/ i - • ?.,,. ;. ¥ ~~ t ..H. ~ OPEN WA""TER. 24 l !I . {-i �l J -•~ v--::,,·-:;' -,_ ·- -•• J... . I C.oR.f:..EL/\flON of V cC.c.1AriCHJ Wf:.TLA.N05 25 OPt::._. WATc"-. �- -· ec Q) ·- C') .a e ~Q. -o "C a. C, ·.: ·- .5 .Q.J: C >• <> • > -=-: ~Q C ._ •o _,_ ~ "C co CC. ca "' ~u 1 j F IC:: i, (I) 1; c- t)~Q.> 0 0 ._. □ "C "C C::, Cl)~~~ ij ,i 1! i' ,: p ,: ~ r:J 1 !G .~~ (-&--..., ~ ,.______ 1,- _,. ..........- ., .-.••w. :-·-:, ..:.,-;-: CO.~ELA TION ANA.LY51..S;. LA.IJ. D 26 i - a, CAPAe. i 1... 1Ty 0 C �LAND USE PATTERNS - I9 7.J.The predominant land use character of Stockbridge Township Is rural residential, agricultural, and open space. Single family homes and mobile homes are scattered through the Township, however the greatest concentrations are in the vicinity of the Village in the southeastern quadrant of the Township. There are no mobile home parks or large multiple family projects, however an area has·been zoned for mobile homes on the east side of the Township. If this area develops It should relieve pressures on the Township government to permit mobile homes indiscriminately throughout the Township. There are several smal I lakes in the Township which in some cases have developable shore! ine. It can be expected that these areas will come under increasing pressure to develop in the near future. While there are presently no apartment structures in the Township, activity of such nature is increasingly common in rural townships. Steps should be taken to cope with these developments properly when they occur. The generally scattered development currently present is not conducive to the economical development of pub! ic utility systems in al 1 areas of the Township. It is 1 lkely that continued development adjacent to the Village will enhance the feasibil lty of a joint Vil !age-Township system. See Figure 2, Existing Land Use. 27 �. 'i : I C j "'C Q. •~ • ~ ._ ] .Q Ill I (I) C ,. I,. ..,. • ji 0 ,, ,, .-oc:::s en F :! .!! 4; ~ 28 ,: t H s c (,.)JQ.>- CJ I ~ Cl C .:.:. c~ .I :, ,, _,• I al "' !]J • l i I l I 1 l I ii I I □ ...• .,• i 'i G) C') - i IN .f-1 �TRANSPORTATION - 1975"' All publ le roads In Stockbridge Township are maintained by the Ingham County Road Commission except State Highways M-52, M-36 and M-106 which are main• tained by the State Highway Department. No new major roads are planned by either agency. As subdivisions develop it is likely that more minor local roads will be built. The transportation system focuses on the Village area where M-52 and M-106 cross and where most of the north-south and east-west traffic intersects. In addition to road transportation, Ingham County and the State of Michigan have proposed non-motorized trails which wil 1 pass through the Township. 1999 1958-1985 Trattic Volume Trends frQm Sur:-ounding Major Urban Areas Along MI.Jor Toutes to the Stockbridge Towshi~ Are& - Yeu From Jackson From F?'Qm Ann Arbor u. s. 23 (Chelsea) (Pincmey} F?'Qm !..&nSinll From Muon (:iAnsville) l958 l,400-2,600 900-5,000 400-1,400 900-1,200 600 1962 l,400-2,200 l,J.00-3,000 500-2,000 l,200-1,500 500 1967 l,200-2,400 1,400-4 1 100 400-2,600 l,lOO-l,700 500 1971 l,500-7,000 2,300-8 ,800 350-4,ooo l,300-2,100 500 1975 l,700-7,200 2,400-10,200 400-5,100 l,500-2,500 500 1979 l,850-7 ,940 2,400-12,100 400-9,000 l,900-2,800 600 1983 2,600-5,100 2,700-14,600 800-5,000 2,600-3,100 1,000 1985 29 �The most recent traffic counts taken by the Ingham County Road Commission and the State Highway Department are depicted in Table 15 below: \975" TABLE 15 TRAFFIC VOLUMES, 1973 I q75' Route A.D.T. M-52 (North of Vi 11 age) M-52 (South of Village) 1800 2300 1800 1200 1204 673 751 918 525 391 M-106 (South of Village) M-106 (East of Village) Morton Road (W. Stockbridge Road) Dexter Tra i 1 (West of M-52) Dexter Tra i 1 (East of Brogan Road) Parman Road (South of Heeney) Bro'gan Road (South of Milner) Brogan Road (North of Milner) 1987 A.D.T. 3200 2 7 00 2900 2500 NA 1000 NA NA NA NA See Figure 3, Tr.affic. i ·189 1958-1985 Tnttic Volume Trends in Stockbridge To..mshit, Area M-52 - e North ot M-52 South ot M-106 Southvest ot M-106 East ot Village M-106 South ot Juncture With M-36 M-36 ot Juncture With M-106 North M-36 East ot M-36 and M-106 Juncture Village Village 1,200 1.300 1,400 700 700 700 900 1962 1,500 1,500 1,400 1,200 1,200 1,100 800 1967 1,700 1,400 l,500 1,000 800 980 700 1971 2,100 2,300 1,800 1,200 Boo 900 900 1975 2,500 2,400 2,000 1,600 1,200 1,000 l,300 1979 2,800 2,400 2,000 l,700 1,200 l,300 l,400 1983 3,100 2,700 2,700 l,900 l,700 l,800 1,800 Year Village 1958 30 �• • ...... 111 .. HIGHWAYS ._,. -STATE HWY .... co. PRIMARY _co. LOCAL r1 ("\ SUBDIVISION t"\ ,· . , .. v,c,,d~ " I••• 312- 1973 AOT '•~; ' ·-·i · rJ ~ .... w rn "I<- - r l,-. --1 _,,z Stockbridge Township T'1 C, )> D V • rI - I'. :r ~ l> '< ~ if•l~J- land planning study ---._-,=-~~ , ! l-1 - h - -. • ~ r::r- 1---· ,--.. . .--;( I "" ',_ \ . ,\;-., ~,.~~~:>;;..,, 1_ I ,_.,i,.J.:o,.\;c!~ '! t1 00:-.;1-;."'l:.!'r,l(;:•~:.:.:.--.:l.:..-:......~\! ,,.p111c - f•aooo· lnJlJl ~ ..... --3 �P OL I C I E S The following pol icy statements and explanations form the rationale and basis for the physical plan for the future Stockbridge Township. Careful analysis of the physical characteristics of the Township and application of these • development principles wit l result in an understandable and defensible land use plan. Stockbridge Township is concerned about scattered, uncontrolled, and disorganized growth. The results of such growth if it continues will be waste of land, unnecessary costs for public services, and reduced agricultural activity in the Township. The Township recognizes that rrobile homes can provide . economical shelter for local residents particularly young families and elderly persons. However, due to their physical characteristics and general ty tempo- rary nature it Is felt that mobile homes should not be indiscriminately scattered throughout the Township. Instead specific areas should be provided exclusively for mobile home 1 iving. Land Use Goal: Stockbridge Township desires a well-balanced land use pattern capable of meeting present and future community needs in an efficient, economical and aesthetically pleasing manner. Land Use Policies: 1. The Comprehensive Development Plan wil 1 serve as a guideline for decisionmaking by elected township officials, township planning commissioners, and township property owners. 2. The Stockbridge Township Zoning Ordinance will be based on the adopted Comprehensive Development Plan and will serve to enforce the land use policies of the Plan as a local ordinance. 3. As development densities increase it may eventually be necessary to construct public sewers to avoid ground water pollution. It is Impractical to provide publ tc sewers to the entire Township, therefore development should be related to the Village and to the eastern half of the Township which 1 ies within the Huron-Clinton River Basin. 32 �4. The Township will encourage development of desirable new commercial and industrial activities in a safe, convenient, and attractive manner In order to Improve the tax base of the corrrnunlty. S. Certain lands in the Township are well suited for agricultural purposes. It shal 1 be the pol icy of the Township to discourage development on prime agricultural lands. 6. Subdivision regulations should be adopted to guide the quality of new residential growth in the Township. 7. The Township will promote the orderly development of attractive residential areas and supporting services, establishments and institutions. However, such growth shal 1 not be allowed to occur in a manner which results in scattered, sprawling, haphazard suburban development and its ugly, costly, wasteful aftermath. 8. The Comprehensive Plan should incorporate a plan for providing an additional 215 new households between 1970 and 1980. This planning should recognize that a variety of housing types exist and can be properly located In the Township. 9. Residential areas should be protected from activities which produce excessive noise, dirt and odors, or wh i ch generate heavy traffic. High density housing should be prevented un l ess public sewers can be provided. 10. The basic residential character of the Township should be preserved and protected from excessive development of incompatible uses. 11. The Comprehensive Plan wi 11 incorporate a streets and highways plan and specific standards for setbacks from al 1 streets and highways within the Township. ENVIRONMENT - \ 9 <SStockbridge Township conta i ns a wide variety of land and natural resource features. Specifically, there are wide variations in soil types suitable for development or for agricultural purposes. There are several small lakes which have not yet experienced development along their shores. There are large areas of wetlands and areas with high water table, as well as desirable . 33 · �woodlands. ·~ Topography varies considerably resulting in an Interesting land- scape, with potential for soil erosion if not carefully managed. Environmental Goal: Stockbridge Township wishes to prorrote the wisest possible use of her natural resources In preserving the environment for present and future generations. Envl ronmental Policies: 1. The Township will prevent development on or filling of marsh or wetland areas In order to preserve them for ground water conservation purposes and to maintain a refuge for natural wild! ife species comrron to the area. 2. The Township wi 11 carefully regulate development in areas of marginal soils, high water table and near lakes in order to protect unwary land purchasers and the pub! ic from development which may cause surface water and ground water pollution. 3. The Township will assist the Soil Conservation Service in any way possible and practical in their efforts to complete a modern soil survey of the Community. 4. The Township should take steps now to preserve scenic recreation resources, such as lake frontage and woodlands, by planning for a long term acquisition program. S. The Township should discourage indiscriminate cutting of woodlands or their development for uses other than recreation and open space. 6. Local owners of land of environmental significance should be informed of the provisions of and encouraged to participate in the Farm Land and Open Space Preservation Act. ]. Objects of environmental blight such as billboards and junk yards should be carefully control led to avoid destruction of the natural beauty of the Township. �P LArl ti I tl G STANDARDS GUIDELINES FOR GROWTH There are several basic criteria which will dictate to a large extent the shape of the future Stockbridge Township. The natural characteristics of the Township must be respected, and the population growth must be provided for in an economical and efficient manner. In the preceding sections of this report and especially in the pol icy section, several facts have become apparent and assumptions made. This information will form the basis for the plan. Environment The topography of the Township dictates that the most efficient utility system planning must reco;nize the existing village facilities. Therefore any development of sufficient density to require sewers must be located in the Huron-Clinton Drainage Basin for the forseeable future. This means that al 1 dense development wi 11 occur on the east side of the Township and particularly near the Village. The natural wetlands, lakes, trees and best farm land should be maintained in its natural state or farmed. Streets and Highways As development continues it wil 1 become increasingly necessary to require substant ial building setbacks along Township roads. This is necessary for safety reasons primarily, however it may save right-of-way acquisition costs in the long run. The fol lowing standards are applicable to the highway map (Figure 3) contained in this report. No additional major streets are anticipated as needed in the next 25 years. STREET SETBACK PLAN REQUIREMENTS rem Centerline Type State Count Cou s U. i' e,cc.-,(e J : Sc-~ p4 1e. .3b feet Land Use-19,SBased upon population projections found in Table 3 it is possible to anti- cipate the number of new residential 1 iving units which can be expected In 35 �I ',d9 Pla.nning St&nd&rd.a taz. Roads and Higl::twa.y"s Planned T-,a,e of Road/High-way R.o.w.• vidtb { teet) A. Major Arterials Pl&nned rBlz:fltihg Setbacks trom R.o.w. 150' 80' 120' 60• 90' 50' K-52 K-106 ( SW ot Village) B. loc&l Arterials K-106 (E. ot Village) . M-36 c. Collectors &nd Connectors Dexter Trail Milner Catholic Church lli. O'Brien-Cbap.man-Mcrton Roads Combination Ada.ma ?.d. Heeney Rd. Brogan Rd. Main St. Z...echel and Heeney P.oads Combination Green and Shepper Rods Combination Base Line Rd. She~per Rd. betveen Green &nd K-106 Oakley Rd. {E.& W. ot M-52_ D. Miner Roads 50' All other roada in the Township 36 (teet ) �the next 25 years. ~ In the years 1974-1980 there will be a need for 141 new homes, and by the year 2000 there will be a need for 915 new homes. Many of the homes will be in subdivided areas on relatively small lots of fram 1/2 - 1 ayre. It is recorm,ended that the following proportions be used as guidelines: RESIDENTIAL STANDARDS Number of Units 1980 ~ - Single Family, 1/2 Acre Per Unit (Possible Multiple) (R-1) S i ng 1e Fam i 1y , 1 Ac re P•e r Un i t. Rural Residential Single Family, 20 Acres Per Un i t Min i mum, Agricultu ra 1 Total Required Acres Number of Units 1980-2000 Required Acres 64 32 412 206 63 63 412 412 14 280 91 1,820 141 375 915 2,438 Other types of land use should also be provided for in the plan including schools, commercial, industrial. and park land. Based upon the assumption that each ne 1J househo 1d wi 11 produce 1 1/2 schoo 1 chi 1d ren it is poss 1b 1e 1 to see that by the year 2000 there will be a need for 1 1/2 additional elementary schools, a new middle school. and an addition of 50% to the high school. Such projections do not take into account any of the other popula- tion growth expected in the School District only that of Stockbridge Township. Method of Calculation: 1056 New Households 1974-2000 ,75 elementary pupil/HH = 792 new pup i ls by 2000@ 25/class • 32 teaching stations@ 20 T.S . /School = 1.5 elementary schools .375 middle school pupils/HH s 396 new pupils by 2000 at 400-500 pupi 1~/sc~ool = 1 middle school .375 high school pupils/HH • 396 new pupils by 2000 (high school can be expanded by 50% therefore= expand high school to maximum capacity of 1200 pup i ls. 37 �*Schools: Land required for new schools will be 15 acres per elementary school and 20 - 25 acres per middle school. Standards generally recognized for providing commercial and industrial land suggest a need for 4 acres of commercial per 5000 population (the 2000 population Is projected to be 5673) and a need for 2 acres of 1 ight industrial per 1000 population. *Commercial/Industrial: Land required for commercial uses will be at least 4 acres by the year 2000. Land required for 1 ight industrial uses could amount to at least 10 acres ·by the year 2000. Standards generally recognized for providing park land suggest the need for 1 .5 acres of playgrounds per 1000 population at a minimum size of 2 acres, and 3.5 acres of community parks per 1000 pc~ulation at a minimum desirable size of 40 acres. *Parks: Land required for playgrou~ds wi 11 be approximately 8.5 acres by the year 2000. It is possible that if elementary schools are conveniently located these facilities could be provided in cooperation with the schools. Land required for community parks wil 1 approximate 20 acres by the ye~r 2000. The standards expressed in this section have been utilized in preparing the following master land use/development plans for the years 1980 and 2000. 38 �1')89 Development Standards tor Land Use Categories A. Rural Land Uses l. l <,e 9 Agric:uJ,turaJ. Land Uses - t 9a~ a. The purpose ot this land use category is to proTide tor the compatible arrangemeIIt. and deTelopment ot parcels ot land tor residential building purposes in a pastoral• agricultural, woodland or open land sett inc• vhich vill remain unaerTed by public water distribution and vaatevater disposal systems in the toreseeable tuture, but vbic:h are suitable tor large lot residential purposes, vhic:h can accommodate healthful on-site water supply and vastevater disposal, but vhich reserTes and conserves that land vhic:h is most adaptable tor present and ruture agricul1.ur&l, voodla.nd, natural resource and other extensive land uses. b. Planned land uses and general conditions: (l) All present principal agricultural operations and their accessory uses including home occupations on at least tventy (20) acres ot land. (2) Agribusinesses that serve the present agricultural operations either as a princ:ipa.l use or a home occupation on at least ten (10) acres ot land. (3) Nontarm, single family residences and their accessory uses, including home occupations on at least t£n (10) acres or land area or O teet vide, or as large a land area or width as is necessary to accommodate on-site septic tanks and vells. (4) Special uses and their accessory uses, including natural resource extraction and use, public and private utility and communication's tacilitiea, public and private institutions tor human ca.re, religion, education, recreation, and other hWll&ll social purpose on at least tventy (20) acres ot land. (5) Planned Unit DeTelopmenta ot at least twenty (20) acres in area. ( 6) 2. On-ai te septic tanks and wells• it they meet County heal th and •~i~a1;ion _atand&r11s. Resource Conservation and Development Land Uses a. l ~~9 Purpose: The purposf! ot this laud use area is to provide for the .arrangement ot land uses thAt are compatible vith the conservation, preservation and non-intensive development of lar8e tracts of land presently having a most desirahle nl\turt\l environment that sho':1ld not be intensively disturbecl, except minimally- tor natural habitat tor wildlife, native tlora, natural vater features, including extensive wetlands and high water table soils, and other extensive land uses which retain the natural character ot the area. Single 39 �b. • Pl&.Dned land uses and genera.l conditions: (l) Single tamily homes and their accessory uses, including home occupations, on at least one (l) acre ct land area 200 feet vide, or as large a land area or vidth as it necessary to accommodate on-site septic tanks and wells, or on lots of at l.east l.5 ,OOO square :teet in area and 100 feet ride providing either public or canmon water supply and/or l111.&tevater disposal systems on an area project basis. (2) Specia.l uses and their accessory uses• including public and private organizations, education, recreation and other tacilities and areas serving only the immediately surrounding residential area. (3) On-site septic tanks and wells, it they meet County Health and sanitation standards or public or common water supply and wastewater disposal systems. ((4) • Planned Unit Developments (PUD's) consisting of the land uses planned for this land use area. B. Urban Land Uses - l'H3'j l. Urban Residential land Uses - 1c,a9 a. PUrpose: The purpose ot this land use category is to provide for single family housing nei8hborhoods free from other uses, except those which are (l) normally accessory and (2) compatible, supportive and convenient to the residents living vithin such a land use area. The size of lots and parcels in this area should be planned to be of such e.n area and width and density so that on-site water supply and wastew.ter disposal systems are not to be permitted, e.nd development can only- be allowed if e.ncl vhen public water supply or vastewater sanitary sever systems are available as a direct abutting service to each lot or parcel planned to be used tor housing or other permitted uses. b. Planned land uses &nd general conditions: (l) Single family and their acc~ssory uses, including home occupations, on at least 15,000 square feet of land area 80-100 teet and an average ot 100 feet wide and ser,,ed by public sever and water systems including fire hydrants. (2) Special uses and their accessory uses, including public and private organizations, education, recreation and other facilities and areas serving only the immediately surrounding residential area. (3) Planned Unit Developments (PUD's) consisting of the land uses planned in this land use area • • 40 �• Community Service Commerci&l. I.and Uses 2• a. • Purpose: 'I'he~; purpose ot thia land use category has the intent ot proTiding areas wherein retail trade and serrice outlets can be located vhich are conTenient to the residents of several. neighborhoods and the ovners, employees, guests &nd customers ot ottice, other commercial, industrial and agricultural uses and actiTities in the Tovnship and &4,J&cent municip&lities. b. • -1'}8 '-) PJ.anned land uses and general conditions: (l) Businesses, including certain types ot specialty shops, and otticea that need. a more central- location 1n an assembly ot businesses tor economic reasons. These retail and ottice types ot commerci&l serrice establishments are desigrted to otter goods senices to the public on a community-wide trading area basis. The minimum lot area on the average is pla.nned to be about 40,000 square teet per business, vith the ratio ot three (3) square feet of land to one (l) square toot or total principal and accessory building and structure area ot ground CO"Verage. It is pla.~ned to serTe thesee land uae areas vith public sewer and water systems, including tire hydrants. Othervise, it on-site septic tanks and veils are to be used, the buildings and structures are planned to be located on at least one (l) acre ot land area 200 teet vide, or as large a lot area and width necessary to accommodate them • (2) Community Service Commercial land uses are planned to serve an area vith goods and services on a weekly basis well beyond the immediate neighborhoods for their trading area support. They are pls.nned to be located- at major highway and road intersections (4-vay required) that generally have their roads extending veil beyond the local neighborhoods, a.nd which carry the heaviest daily traffic volumes so as to provide the satest, most convenient accessibility tor the community it is designed to serve. (3) On-site septic tanks which meet the County health and sanitation standards. (4) Special uses and their accessory uses~ including public and private organization, education and recreation and other facilities and areas serving only the immediately surrounding community commercial service uses and their clientele. (5) Planned unit dev-elopmenta consisting ot the uses planned tor this land use area . 41 �Light Industria.l I.and Uses - ~ 9 87 e a. Purpose: It is the intent ot this land use category to provide tor the development ot sites ot industrial plants in vhich the manutacture ot goods in the torm ot finished or semi-finished products or the uaembl7, compounding, or treatment ot product parts or ingredients, 1n order to create finished or semitinished goods tor sa.le to other induatria.l ma.nutacturers, or to bulk or vholeaa.le comaercial purchasers. It is the turther intent ot this land use category to permit onl:, those industrial ma.n~acturing uaea b&Ting,uae, performance or activity characteristics vhich em.it a minimum &mount ot discernible noise, vibration, smoke, dust, dirt, glare, toxic materials, ottensiTe odors, gases, electromagnetic radiation, or any other physically adverse ettect to the extent that they are abnormally discernible beyond the lot lines ot the parcel or site upon which the industria.l manufacturing activity is located. b. Planned land uses and conditions: (l) Light industrial manufacturing and heavy commercial types ot land use activities are planned tor this area. This includes open land uses and uses that are conducted within buildings and structures, and located on parcels ot land ot at least tive (5) acres and having a width ot about 300 feet or as large a lot area and width necessary to accommodate them. (2) Light industrial land uses are planned to be in locations that have direct access to the regional highvay systems, preferably the limited access highways, and rail and other tor.ma ot regional transportation; so that they can be convenient to the regional labor pool, as vell as regional wholesale markets or other regionally located industries vith vhich they integrate their manufacturing and distribution ot manufactured goods. These land uses are planned to be located on year'round heavy duty truck routes, and ott tront ro&d.a which are limited by aeasona.l restrictions. (3) On-site septic tanks, it they meet County healgh and sanitation standards or public or common water supply and vasteva.ter disposal systems. (4) Special uses and their accessorj uses, including public and private organizations, education and recreation and other facilities and areas serving only the immediately surrounding industrial and he&T"'J commercial uses and their clientele. (5) Planned Unit Developments ( PUD' s) cons is ting of the uses planned for this land use area. 42 �..... •• --u • -· • :a E 0 0 0 Oo e~ N ~ •E . 2,.i -a. -; .. . e ~c u eo OIQ. 0 ._ C ftl .,ca - ► 0. - ~-- ; ' g::- ~'""-i"-,---:-~~ ~~~-+---_:_~~¢;:;,~ I g 1 .;' Nl -~ S i' E: R P L p,,, IJ Io YEA ll 1. 0 0 43 O �IMPLEMENTATION This plan wi 11 be a successful guide for the future development of Stockbridge Township only if it is continually used in the decision-making process of citizens, developers, and the Township. This plan should be officially adopted by the Township Planning Commission and recognized by the Township Board. The Board has the power to implement the Plan through the passage of ordinances and the expenditure of public funds. There · are basically five steps to take in implementing the Plan, which are generally: land use controls, financial aids, general government programs, intergovernmental cooperation, and citizen participation. The Plan should be implemented through the use of Zoning. The adoption of a revised Zoning Ordinance is essential as the present ordinance is seriously outdated and provides 1 ittle protection for township property owners from new development, or little guidance to developers desiring to build within the Township. Consideration should also be given to adopting Subdivision Regula- tions for regulating the design of new subdivisions which can be expected in the years ahead. The Township, through its participation in federal grant programs and its expenditure of funds for public improvements, can encourage certain types of development in the desired areas of the township. For example, several federal grant programs provide for acquisition of park and open space land desired by township residents. Thirdly, the township can implement the Plan through its local programs, such as the Capital Improvements Program. for, usually, 6 years ahead. The C.I.P. is a capital budget extending Based upon the Development Plan, the Township Board can foresee the need for improvements in certain neighborhoods or can encourage development through the expenditure of public funds. Another important aspect of local government programs is the ongoing planning program. The Plan must be constantly used in making decisions, it must be re-evaluated often, and kept up-to-date from the most current information. The Township must recognize its role in the region and the County and continue to cooperate with other governments conducting programs affecting township �residents. • To this end, these governments and agencies should be provided with copies of the Plan and consulted concerning implementation of the plan . Finally, the Plan will only be successful if Township residents get behind it and support i s goals and suggestions for improved corrmunity living conditions. Residents can help through their willingness to contribute their talents on committees or their ideas at public meetings or hearings. To involve town- ship residents in corrmunity decision making will require a commitment of the Planning Corm,ission and the Township Board to disseminate information to the people on a regular basis through the news media and various public forums, so that the public will have the necessary background information to make rational decisions about how they want their corrmunity to develop . • • 45 �Zoning Memor&ndum Critique ot the Stockbridge Tovnshiu Zoning Ordinance Suggestions tor improving its • organization, content a.nd et:tectiveness . preP4-"d tor: Pla.nning Commission and Tovnship Board Stockbridge Township Ingham County, Michigan by: 46 Robert B. Hotaling, PCP Zoning Consul t&nt �- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -- l C)a ~) ZONING MEMORANDUM TO: Planning Commission and Tovnahi p Board Stockbridge Tovnahip Stockbridge, Michigan FROM: Bob Rota.ling, PCP Planning a.nd Zoning Consultant SUBJECT: Critique or Zoning ordina.nce A. • Genen.l Comments . l. Need tor additional. definitions. 2. Need to separate •aen.eral Provisions" and "Supplementary Regulations" into separate Articles. 3. lleed tor a Planned Unit Development Article. 4. Beed tor a Noncontorming Use Article (separate from General Provisions). Need tor a Parking a.nd Loading and Un.loading Article (separate rrom "Generai Provisions. 11), B. 6. !eed tor a Sign Article (separate rrom "General Provisions"~• 7. Need tor a Site Plan ReTiev Article (nev Article). 8. Need tor an Improved Administntion and Enforcement Article ( Particularly Enforcement ot Violations). 9. lieed tor a Zoning Board or Appeals Article ( separate trom. "Administration and Enforcement") • Specific: Comments l. Mobile Rome Parka should be handled by Special Use Permit &lld Site Plan ReTiev Procedures rather than as a Zonillg District. 2. Definitions to be added: Agribuainesa Airports Apartment a: (l) Etticiency unit. (2) One bedroom unit. (3) Two bedroom unit. (4) Three or more bedroom unit. Ailtomobile car wash Automobile repair 47 �• Automobile service Automobile , Junk Billboard Block Board ot Appeal.s Building u-ea Building, tar2 Building 'permit Building, principal. Buildillg setback line Building, temporary Camper Campgrounda Clinic , animal. Cl.ini C I human Com.me re ial. • Common open spaces Conval.escent or nursing home CUstcm&:ry DeTel·opment Domestic anim&ls Drive-in use Dwelling, !arm Dwelling, group Dvelling, mobile home Exc&Tation Exception zoning Existing land use Floodpl.ain Foster care home Fronta.ge, road Frontage access road Garage, commercial Garage, private General veltare Greenbelt or pl.anting area Group hou.sing llighva:, Historical building, site or area Rome, motor Roapital. Ratel Induatri&.l Industrial park Institutional. Laboratory I.&ke I.and activity I.and uae Land uae • existing Lighting, source ot I.ct, coverage tot, double tront&ge I.ct • va tert'rcnt I.ct line, vatertrcnt lob bile Rome Park lobbile Home Commission 48 �!it)tel • Noncontor:id~ building or structure Nonprotit Nursing home Occupied Ottice On-site Open air 'business uses Open space Open space, common Open storage Outdoor advertising signs Parcel Park1~, ott-atreet Parki~ lot, ott-street Parking spac•, ott-street Patio Permitted uses Pet ' Planned unit development (PUD) Pl&nning Commission Pl&nning Commisaion/Z.Oni~ Board Plat Pond Porch, enclosed • Porch, open Pottable vater Practical di1"1"icult7 Prohibited uses Project Public he&l. th Public s&tety Public veltare Public utility Recraation vehicle Right-ot-vay lin& Right-ot-vay-, public Right-ot-vay, private Road, collector or connector Pio&d, trontage access Road, bard surtac e Road, major arteria1 Road, minor Road, private Road, public Roadside stand Sanitary landtill Semi-public Setback Shopping center Shoreline • 49 �• Sign, lighted Sign, outdoor advertising Sit e pl.all Site pl.an rn-iev Speci&i uae Story , Structural alteration Svilmlling pool • Temporary building Tempor&ry use Tent Tover Travel trailer or Recreation vehicle Trailer coach Unnecessary hardship Use Use, &ec:essory Use, agricultural. Use, c:cmmerc i&l Use, exception Use, existing Use, industri&l Use, institutional Use, land Use, nonprofit Use, permitted Use, prohibited Use, public: Use, residential Use, temporary Use, variance Variance, zoning Vested right Waste dispoaa.l Waatevater Water supplyWatertront line Waterfront lot Waterfront y&rd Wetland Yard, vatertront. • Zoning Zoning Zoning Zoning Zoning Zoning Zoning Zoning Zoning Zoning Zoning administrator appe&i Board ot Appeals diatric:t exception interpretation map, ottic i&l pendt regulations ticket variance 50 �• • 3. Page l. Atter "Preamble" insert nev entitled paragraph entitled "Declaration ot Necessity" 4. Page 2. Atter "Declaration ot Necessity" add another paragraph entitled "Relationship to Master Plan~ 5. Page 15. Cb&z.\ge Article III trom •Zoning Districts and Ma:c" to "General Provisions". In addition to Sections under Article III &dd the tollcving: (a) llev Section entitled "PrOTision tor Ottic:ial Zoning l-kp." (b) Nev Section entitled "Method tor Changing Otticinl Zoning MIL'D ". ( c) 1fev Section entitled "Autbori ty ot the Ottic ia.l. Zoning M&'C." (d) Nev Section entitled "Ap-olication and Intenretation or the Regul.ations". (e) llev Section entitled "Sco'Ce ot Regulations". (t) !ev Section entitled "Relation to Contlictin~ Regulations". (g) lev Section entitled "Zoning Not a Vested Right". (h) 1fev Section entitled "District Boundaries in Undevelo"Ced Areas" • (i) Nev Section entitled "Site Plan Reviev Procedures". (J) Bev Section entitled "Zoning Per'!ll.its in Relation to Building Permits." (k) Nev Section entitled "Per'!ll.itted Zoning District Uses a.nd Other Provisions." (l) lfev Section entitled, "Continued Conformance vith Zoning Ordinance". (a) Bev Section entitled "DevelO'Cment in Flood'Cla-ins and Wetlands" (See 401.8). (n) !ev Section entitled, "Public Street Frontage Requirements tor All Lots and Parcels". (o) !ev Section entitled, "Contornance to Other Public Lavs, Rules and Regulations". (p) Bev Section entitled "Project Planning and Plan Information trc:a Other Public: Agencies and Otticia.l.s. 11 ... • 51 �(q) • 6. 7. Pa3ea 41-43. lev Section entitled "Conformance ot Lots and Parcels to the u:it S-olitti.ng and Platting Requirements ot the SUbd.iTision Control Act." McTe the tolloving "SUpplementary Regulations" to "General ProTisiona". (a) 401.3 "Variance ot Requirements tor Lota of Record" (b) 401.4 "Lot Area can be Allocated Cllly Once" (c) 402.2 "Access to a Street" (d) 402.2 "One Princit>al Building on a Lot" (e) 402.) "Unsafe Buildings" ( t) 402.4 "!uilding Guides" (g) 402.5 "Required Water Su1>ply and Sanitary Sewerage Facilities" ( h) 402. 6 "M::>Ting !uildings" Pages 41 • 42. Change Article Four to "Sup1>lementary Regulations" and include the tolloving under it: • 8. Pag1! 43. (a) 401.l "Accessory Buildings" (b) 401.2 "Fences, Walls &nd Screens" (c) 401.5 "Yard Encroacbmenta Permitted" (d) 401.6 "Accessory Buildings" (e) 401.7 "Height Requirements Exceptions" (f) Add a number ot additional "supplementary Regulations" vllich deal vith a number ot special specific situations and cccditions. (These are not in the Ordinance at the pre sent t ille ) • Cha.nge Section 403 "Nonconforming Uses" to a Nev Article removing it trc:a "General Conditions". by Ch&np Section 404 "Parking Requirements" to a Nev Article by remoTing it trom "General Conditions 11 and add "u:iading and Unl.oading Require:menta 11 to the same Article. • 10. Page 47 ll. Paps 43-45 "Nev Article tor "Noncontorming Uses": Cha.nge Section 405 "Sign Regulations" to a Nev Article by remcving it trc:a "General Conditions" and expand. (a) Add nev Section tor "Noncontonn.ing Structures" 52 �(b} • 12. 13. Pages 45-47. • llev Article tor "Parking Requirements: (a} Add a nev section tor "Leading and Unloading" (b) !!xp&nd uaea included in present listing under Section (c} Expand 404.5 tc include additional. requirements tor surfacing, drainage, lighting, angles ot parking, tencing and 1creening, etc. 404. 4. Pages 47~8. Bev Article tor "Sign Regulations". This Article aa written is entirely too briet a.nd too limited in the types ot signs listed and regulations covering them. !itich needs to be added. Pages 49-56. Special Use Permits • 15. Section 403.5 "Restoration ct Daa.ge", add exception "It the va.lue ct the residual. usetu.l part ot the buildings, structures and other en-site improvements" exceed a specified percentage ct the assessed T&l.ue or -rk.et Tll.lue ( chcose one}. Pages (a) This Article needs to be separated into an Article vhich lists the various Special Uses and their conditions tor getting permission to develop on one hand and on the other the parts which deal. vith "Site Pla.n Reviev" should be rel9Cated trca the Special Use Perm.1 t Article and placed in a nev "Site Plan Reviev Article". (b} The listing of potential Special Uses to be permitted could be expanded and conditions, especially, added to many io the list which have no conditions. (c} The oev "Site Plan Reviev Article" wuld have to be expanded considerably in order· to· adequately cO'Ter ·' enough ot the procedura.l. requirements not nov in the Ordinance. (d) Section 506 "Other Special Uses" as vritten is too loose. Ao a;panded list ct criteria and conditions to be met should be added. 57-64 "Article Six, "Ad.ministration and Enforcemetrt" (a) Should ban the Zoning Board ot Appeals portions of it removed and placed in a nev Article tor the ZBA, because the ZBA is a quasi-Judicial body and not a part ct Administration and Enforcement. (b) The ad.ministration portions of this Article should be spelled out more comprehensively- and clearly to tu responsibility • 53 �(c) • 16. The entorcement portions ot this Article should be expanded to include a clear a.nd concise procedure tor correcting Tiolations • including the use ot "1.oning Tickets" a.nd the uae ot "District Court". Comments about the Various Zoning Districts (a) Delete !wbbile Rome Park District a.nd list MR Parka as a Speci&l. Uae specitying caiditions. (b) AG District - Detine and list Agribusinesses to be permitted in this District and specity conditions. • (c) Residential Districts - vhen single tam.ily dwellings . &re permitted in a 1.oning District multiple family dvelling structures should not be and Tice Tersa. (d) Speci&.l Uses should be thought through as to vhether or not it would be advisable to put them aJ.l. under their ovn Article, "Special Uses" ( alre&dy provided tor in the Ordinance) vhen they are permitted in more than one district or vhen they are permitted in onl7 one district. (e} Airports and la.nding strips are a special problem &.nd should not simply be listed as a permitted or a special use vi thout the condition that they meet allot the requirements ot the Michigan and l"ederal Aeronautics Commissions. A-lot ot liability potential • (t) Quite a tev Temporary and Transient Uses could be better handled through Supplementary Regulations rather than the lengthy Special Use Permit and Site Plan Reviev Procedure. (g) The uses in each District abculd be thought out in terms ot (l) vbat uses are nov existing in the area a.nd vbich ot these should be planned a.nd zoned to continue to be encouraged to denlop in the Township, (2) those uses vbicb are in the surrounding area and could be legitimately added to the ones to be encouraged to develop in the Tovnsbip, (3) those required by State lav and (4) those additiona.l uses that do not tit any ot the aboTe but which vould be acceptable. (h) I.iTestock, other than those found on legitimate farming operations should meet certain m.inimum lot or parcel require•ats and ao much additional area (acreage) tor additional animals. • ( i) In vater:tront areas there sbculd be more requirements than tor nonvater:tront lots and parcels. (J ) Side yards in a spacious area like Stockbridge Tovnship should require that the side yard sh&l.l. be equal to at least the height ot the structure located nearest to a aide lot line. 54 �• l 7. (k) Page 30 "Site Pl.an ReTiev" tor lik>bile Rome Parka should. be in the Article tor Site Plan Review and. get the same treatment aa other Special. uses • (l) ot Principal Uses are to be located in one d.evelcpment the proJect becomes either a "Special. E!!_" or a "Planned Unit DeTelopment" ~ Provisions tor thi.s it included in the Ordinance, should. be made under "Generai ProTiaions". (examt>le: "Fireto.x Stockbridge.") (m) Frontage access road.a should be considered tor inclusion in the Ordinance tor all 111\1.ltiple tamily, commercial &lld. industrial land uaes located along ~52. (n) Ottice, Commercial and Industrial Park projects may va.nt to be included under a Planned Unit Development (POD) Article. (o) Some ot the mere extensive and large land. holdings, particularly a.long K-52 may want to be designated by the Tovnahip as PUD Districts tor Ottice, Commercial, Indu.strial and Multiple Family proJect.s ot minimum. acreages so as to prevent "strit>" developments and. keep M-52 & better and aater route. Whenever a combination Section 604 ( page 64) Changes and Amendments: This Section needs to be mad.e a separate Article. · • 67 - Section 606 "Vested Right" should. be a part of "General Conditions." 18. Page 19. The Zoning Map needs to be at a larger and. more accurate sea.le vith the Otticia.l Zoning Map located in the Township R&.ll in the Tow ship Clerk's Ottice. A Section by Section Atlas ot existing land use vith clear acetate overlays shovi~ the planned land uses on one and the Zoning District boundaries on the other. This latter should be made trom the Assessor's Section Ma.pa vbich are at a larger scale and shov lots and pa:cels tor more accuracy. i:!!; Robert B. Hot g, PCP Planning and Zoning Consultant • 55 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Wyckoff Planning and Zoning Collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Planning & Zoning Center (Lansing, Mich.) (Organization) Wyckoff, Mark A. Description An account of the resource Municipal master plans and zoning ordinances from across the state of Michigan, spanning from the 1960s to the early 2020s. The bulk of the collection was compiled by urban planner Mark Wyckoff over the course of his career as the founder and principal planner of the Planning and Zoning Center in Lansing, Michigan. Some additions have been made to the collection by municipalities since it was transferred to Grand Valley State University. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Michigan Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1960/2023 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/870">Planning and Zoning Center Collection (RHC-240)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/NoC-US/1.0/">No Copyright - United States</a> Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Comprehensive plan publications Master plan reports Zoning--Michigan Zoning--Maps Maps Land use--planning Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-240 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Language A language of the resource eng Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Stockbridge-Twp_Master-Plan_1990 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Robert B. Hotaling, PCP#2 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1990-02 Title A name given to the resource Master Plan Description An account of the resource The Master Plan for Stockbridge Township was prepared by Robert B. Totaling, PCP#2 and was revised in February 1990. Subject The topic of the resource Master plan reports Stockbridge Township (Mich.) Ingham County (Mich.) Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/870">Planning and Zoning Center Collection (RHC-240)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/NoC-US/1.0/">No Copyright - United States</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ab23a1060cf620833af927091527da4f.pdf b2672f02f651c1d5e9b2047814318f66 PDF Text Text �The Highland Charter Township Comprehensive Plan Prepared by: Robert K. Swarthout, Incorporated and Gerald Luedtke and Associates Project Director: Robert K. Swarthout, A.I.C.P., P.C.P., initially as Vice President of Gerald Luedtke and Associates, and subsequently as President of Robert K. Swarthout, Incorporated. Associate Project Planner: Neil A. Grossberger, initially as Director of Design for Gerald Luedtke and Associates, and subsequently as Director of Design for Robert K. Swarthout, Incorporated . Final graphic design, preparation and layout by Robert K. Swarthout, Incorporated. All final maps and diagrams by Robert K. Swarthout, Incorporated. Aerial photography by Oakland County Planning Division. Other photography by Neal A. Grossberger and Robert K. Swarthout. Figures 4.1, 4.2, 4.3, 4.4, 5.1, 5.2, 9.1, 9.2, 10.1 and 10.2 originally prepared by Neal A. Grossberger for Gerald Luedtke and Associates and revised by Neal A. Grossberger and Mary Steffy for Robert K. Swarthout, Incorporated. �J J The Highland Charter Township Comprehensive Plan Robert K. Swarthout, Incorporated �J J J -, J HIGHLAND TOWNSHIP PLANNING COMMISSION HIGHLAND TOWNSHIP BOARD OF TRUSTEES Roy Burley Chairman Ronald Selke Supervisor David Wohleen Vice Chairman Willis Bullard, Jr . , Supervisor During Plan Preparation A. Roscoe Smith Secretary Joyce Izzi Clerk Eugene Beach, Jr. Member Lillian Ann Walker Treasurer Dr. Raymond Brown Member Clarence Carlson Trustee James Diesch Member Charles Cooper Trustee Emily Ingle Member Marie Hewitt Trustee Joyce Izzi Member Nancy Sharp Trustee Susan Mahle Member HIGHLAND TOWNSHIP ZONING STAFF U. Sidney Beach Past Secretary deceased Helen Armstrong Zoning Administrator This Comprehensive Plan for the Charter Township of Highland has been prepared pursuant to Act 285 of 1931, as amended, the 11 Municipal Planning Commission Act. 11 The Land Use Map (Figure 7.1) became effective August 26, 1982 with the unanimous approval of the Charter Township of Highland Planning Commission. The balance of this Comprehensive Plan became effective January 13, 1983 with the unanimous approval of the Planning Commission. �CONTENTS 1. POPULATION ........................................................... 1 Past Growth Pattern .................................................. 1 Social Patterns ...................................................... 3 Economic Factors ..................................................... 3 Age Structure ........................................................ 5 Population Projections ............................................... 5 Holding Capacity ..................................................... 6 2. COMMERCIAL BASE ANALYSIS ............................................ 11 Existing Commercial Facilities ...................................... 11 Milford Road Commercial Corridor .................................... 12 East Highland Commercial Area ....................................... 12 . West Highland Commercial Area ....................................... 12 Duck Lake Commercial Area ........................................... 13 Projection of Future Commercial Development ......................... 13 Determination of Trade Area ......................................... 13 Determination of Future Trade Area Sales Potential .................. 14 Determination of Locally Captured Portion of Future Sales Potential ......................................... 14 Determination of Retail Floor Area Requirements ..................... 15 Determination of Office Facility Floor Area Requirements ............ 16 Determination of Land Area Requirements ............................. 16 Comparison to Existing Land Use ..................................... 16 Recreation-Oriented Commercial Development .......................... 18 3. INDUSTRIAL BASE ANALYSIS ............................................ 25 Existing Industrial Development ..................................... 25 Potential for New Industrial Development ............................ 27 Locational Requirements for Industry ................................ 28 Employment Projections and Industrial Land Use Needs ................ 29 Summary and Conclusions ............................................. 30 4. J J J NATURAL FEATURES ANALYSIS ........................................... 35 Physiography and Topography ......................................... 35 Water Bodies and Wetlands ........................................... 38 Woodlands .................. .-........................................ 38 Septic Suitability .................................................. 38 Importance of Natural Features ...................................... 42 J J J J iii �5. VISUAL QUALITY ANALYSIS ............................................. 43 Methodo 1ogy ......................................................... 43 Traffic Volumes ..................................................... 43 Seen Zones .......................................................... 44 Visual Sensitivity .................................................. 44 Visual Variety ...................................................... 45 Visual Importance ................................................... 45 Visual Analysis Summary ............................................. 49 6. EXISTING LAND-USE DETERMINANTS ...................................... 51 Res i den ti a1 Determinants ............................................ 52 Commercial and Industrial Determinants ................ . ............. 52 Pub 1i c and Semi -Pub 1i c Determinants ................................. 53 Open Space and Recreation Determinants .............................. 54 Land-Use Issues ..................................................... 55 7. LAND-USE POLICIES .............................. ." .................... 71 Residential Development Policies .................................... 71 Commercial and Office Development Policies .......................... 73 Industrial Development Policies ..................................... 74 Open Space and Recreation Policies .................................. 75 9. I~ LAND-USE PLAN ................................................ ~ ...... 57 Residential Development ............................................. 61 Agriculture and Rural Single-Family Development. .................... 61 Medium- and Small-Lot Single-Family Development ..................... 62 Open Space Single-Family Development ................................ 62 Multiple-Family Development ......................................... 64 Mobile Home Park Development ........................................ 64 Residential Development Boundaries .................................. 65 Phased Residential Zoning Strategy .................................. 65 Commercial and Office Development ................................... 67 Industrial Development .............................................. 70 Open Space and Recreation Development ............................... 70 8. ,,,.. THOROUGHFARES AND TRANSPORTATION SERVICES ......................... . . 77 Existing Thoroughfare System ........................................ 77 Existing Thoroughfare Conditions .................................... 77 Existing Road Classifications ....................................... 78 Current Traffic Volumes and Capacities .............................. 81 Future Traffic Volumes and Needs .................................... 83 Proposed Thoroughfare Development ................................... 84 Seen i c Ori ves ....................................................... 85 Pedestrian-Bicycle Greenways ........................................ 85 Other Transportation Services ....................................... 85 r T :r T r ~ r...,.... iv �10. COMMUNITY FACILITIES ................................................ 87 TOWNSHIP OFFICES AND DEPARTMENTS .................................... 87 Space Analysis and Projection Methodology ........................... 87 Uniform Space Allocation Standards .................................. 89 Office of the Township Supervisor ................................... 91 Office of the Township Clerk ........................................ 93 Office of the Township Treasurer .................................... 95 Office of the Township Assessor ..................................... 97 Office of the Township Building Department .......................... 99 Zoning and Planning Department ..................................... 101 Engineering Department ............................................. 103 Township Maintenance Department .................................... 103 Township Hall Existing and Required Functional Space ............... 104 FIRE SERVICES AND PUBLIC SAFETY .................................... 105 Fi re Services ...................................................... 105 Public Safety ...................................................... 105 SCHOOL FACILITIES .................................................. 107 LIBRARY FACILITIES ................................................. 108 WATER, SANITARY SEWER, AND SOLID WASTE DISPOSAL FACILITIES ......... 108 PIPELINE EASEMENTS ................................................. 109 HEALTH CARE SERVICES ............................................... 110 OPEN SPACE AND RECREATION FACILITIES ... . ........................... 110 11. Conservation Easement Program ...................................... 113 Subdivision Design Controls and Open Space Subdivision Design ...... 114 Historic Preservation Program ...................................... 115 Architectural Control Program ...................................... 116 J J J J J - BEAUT I FI CATION ..................................................... 113 12. IMPLEMENTATION OF THE COMPREHENSIVE PLAN ............. '.············:117 Zoning Ordinance ................................................... 117 Subdivision Ordinance .............................................. 117 Capital Improvements Program ....................................... 118 Mapped Improvements Ordinances ..................................... 118 Historic District Preservation ..................................... 118 Federal and State Grants-In-Aid .................................... 118 Public Information Program ......................................... 119 Planning Advisory Services ......................................... 119 Improvements of Commercial Areas ................................... 119 Tax Incentives ..................................................... 119 Financing Private Improvements ..................................... 120 Financing Public Improvements ...................................... 121 J j V JI �TABLES Table 1.1: Population of Highland Township and Surrounding Units of Government 1920-1980 .................... 7 Table 1.2: Numeric and Percentage Population Growth for Highland Township and Surrounding Units of Government .......................... . ..................... 8 Table 1. 3: Population per Household for Highland Township and Surrounding Units of Government .......................... 8 Table 1.4: Proportion of Population in the 15 - 44 Year Age Bracket ..................................... 9 Table 1.5: Population Projections for Highland Township ................. 9 Table 1. 6: Alternate Population Growth Patterns ......................... 9 Table 2.1: Population Growth in the Highland Township Trade Area ................................ 19 Table 2. 2: Total Personal Income in the Highland Township Trade Area ................................ 19 Table 2.3: Expenditures of Personal Income in the Detroit Metropolitan Area ............................ 20 Table 2.4: Potential Retail Sales in Highland Township: 1980 .......... 21 Table 2. 5: Potential Retail Sales in Highland Township: 1980 .......... 21 Table 2.6: Potential Retail Sales in Highland Township: Year 2000 ..... 22 Table 2. 7: Sal es per Square Foot of Gross Leas able Area ................ 22 Table 2.8: Retail Space Needs .......................................... 23 Table 2.9: Office Space Needs .......................................... 23 Table 2.10: Parking and Site Requirements ............................ . .. 24 Table 2.11: Land Area Needs ............................................. 24 Table 3.1: Work Force Projections for Highland Township ................ 32 Table 3. 2: Employment Characteristics of Various Types of Industry ..... 32 Table 3.3: Industrial Land and Building Needs for Highland Township Labor Force ........................... 33 [,,... Table 3.4: Industrial Land and Building Needs within Highland Township .................................... 33 ~ :r t T Lr T T T .,.... vi t �Table 6.1: Existing Land Use in Highland Township ...................... 51 Table 7.1: Highland Township Land Use Plan Tabular Summary of Land Uses ................................ 57 Table 7.2: Additional Residential Holding Capacity of the Land-Use Plan ........................................ 66 Table 10.1: Space Assignment Standards .................................. 89 Table 10.2: Supervisor's Office Existing and Projected Personnel and Space Requirements ............................ 90 Table 10.3: Clerk's Office Existing and Projected Personnel and Space Requirements ............. . .............. 92 Table 10.4: Treasurer's Office Existing and Projected Personnel and Space Requirements ............................ 94 Table 10.5: Assessing Department Existing and Projected Personnel and Space Requirements ............................ 96 Table 10.6: Building Department Existing and Projected Personnel and Space Requirements ............................ 98 Table 10.7: Zoning and Planning Department Existing and Projected Personnel and Space Requirements ................. 100 Table 10.8: Engineering Department Existing and Projected Personnel and Space Requirements ........................... 102 Table 10.9: Township Government Functional Space Requirements .......... 104 J J J J 7 vii �- J J - J J 1. POPULATION �1. POPULATION Introduction Highland Township experienced a decrease in population during the early part of this century due to the coming of the tractor and state purchase of recreation land. However, Highland Township has experienced steady population growth for the last fifty years. During each of the decades between 1940 and 1970, the township posted population increases of between 60 and 70 percent. In the decade from 1970 to 1980, the township's population more than doubled. The 1980 Census enumerated the township's population at 16,958. Highland Township has grown because it is a desirable place to live. Many people who work in more densely developed portions of the metropolitan area enjoy the rural character of the township. Single-family homes have been constructed on scenic wooded sites surroun~ing the township ' s lakes, and many houses that were once used only during the summer have been converted for year-round use. New residents have been added in three mobile home parks located in the township. The rising cost of energy for transportation probably will dampen enthusiasm for living long distances from work. Highland Township's future population growth will be less than if energy costs were still low. However, population projections contained herein assume that Highland Township will continue to be a desirable rural residential area . The projected future population growth in Highland Township will affect the need for various land uses in the township. Many factors that affected past growth still will be important considerations in the future. These factors and additional influences on populat i on growth in Highland Township are analyzed below. Past Growth Pattern J J J J The strong population growth trend in Highland Township is similar to the growth trends in neighboring townships in Oakland County, as shown in Tables 1.1 and 1.2, and Figures 1.1 and 1.2. The growth rates of Milford Township, located south, and Rose Township, located north of Highland Township, have been most similar to Highland Township's growth rate, especially in the last thirty years . All three townships have been characterized by steady growth with dramatic increases in the last ten years . White Lake Township, located east of Highland Township, exhibited steady population growth in the early 1900's with a peak growth rate between 1940 and 1950. Since 1950, the population of White Lake Township has been increasing, but at a slower rate. The growth pattern exhibited by White Lake Township may be a general prototype that Highland Township and similar nearby townships follow. Based on White Lake Township's pattern, Highland Township and similar townships could expect to experience a slower rate of growth in future years, even though the population will continue to increase numerically. The growth rates of Oakland County peaked between 1950 and 1960, and between 1970 and 1980 its population increased only 11.6 percent. A decrease in the actual population or in the population growth rate in the County's urban centers are the primary reasons for the overall decrease in ] ... J 1 �1930 1930-1940 1940 1940-1950 1950 1950-1960 1960 1970 1960-1970 1980 1970-1980 .,- ,r 2 I �population growth in the County. Since 1980 the population of Highland Township has represented a continuously larger proportion of the total population of Oakland County (see Figure 1.3). Even though the population growth of Oakland County is expected to continue to decrease through the year 2000, Highland Township's population is not likely to represent a much greater proportion of the County's total population, since the township's growth is expected to also begin leveling off. Social Patterns Social patterns, such as size of household and number of children per household, affect population growth. Highland Township and other communities in Oakland County have experienced a nationwide phenomenon, the trend toward smaller households. As seen in Table 1.3, the number of persons per household in Highland Township decreased from 3.62 to 3.22 in the period from 1970 to 1980. Oakland County experienced a decrease from 3.29 to 2.84 persons per household in the same period. The decrease in household size is reflected in school enrollment figures for the Huron Valley Schools. The kindergarten enrollment in school year 1975-76 (birth year 1970) was 775 students. Since then the enrollment has decreased steadily to a low of 629 kindergarten students in school year 1980-81 (birth year 1975). Even though the construction of new housing units has shown a healthy increase in the last ten years, the trend toward fewer children and smaller households has resulted in slower population increases. If the trend toward smaller households continues, it will have a leveling effect on population growth. Economic Factors J ] ] Economic factors, such as the general state of the Michigan economy, commercial and industrial growth, and the cost of fuel, will affect population growth in Highland Township. The depressed state of the automobile industry has a dampening effect on other facets of the economy. With high unemployment levels and commercial and industrial growth at a low ebb, families are less likely to relocate in more outlying communities such as Highland Township. High interest rates make new homes difficult to afford. New residential construction in Michigan in 1980 was over forty percent below the 1979 building rate. In Highland Township, only 81 building permits were issued for residential construction in 1980, compared to an average of 204 permits per year for the 1970-1979 period. If, as some analysts expect, Michigan's automobile industry does not return to earlier high levels of activity, even after the current downturn has run its course, then long-term residential growth throughout Southeast Michigan will be dampened. High fuel costs also will continue to affect population growth in Highland Township. People who once may have considered Highland Township or another ] ""I I _, 3 �- 1940 1950 1960 1970 1980 T T 1985 1990 1995 2000 T - ~ 4 _1 r �nearby community as a desirable suburban location, are now seeking a residence closer to employment and commercial centers. Other people who were considering converting their summer home for year-round use are postponing the conversion because of prohibitive driving costs to and from their place of employment. Age Structure I I I I Age structure is a determinant of the rate of natural increase in the population. The potential for natural population increase is generally reflected in the proportion of the total population in the 15 to 44 age bracket. The 1980 U. S. Census revealed that Highland Township and Oakland County had a slightly higher proportion of people in this age bracket compared to the state or nation as a whole (Table 1.4). In 1980 approximately 51 percent of Highland Township's population was 15 to 44 years of age compared to 43.6 percent of the total United States population. Based on these data Highland Township should experience a steady natural increase in population in the future similar in magnitude to the natural increase in the nation and state as a whole. Between 1970 and 1980 the State of Michigan experienced a natural population increase of approximately 3.5 percent. The potential for natural increase in recent years has been tempered by a nationwide trend toward smaller families. Population Projections The most detailed population projection for Highland Township was completed by the Southeast Michigan Council of Governments (SEMCOG). The projection is based on the refinement of one growth alternative selected from a total of six alternatives studied. SEMCOG technicians and local representatives choose the alternative they thought would be most likely to occur. They then prepared input data and data manipulation procedures to sharpen the accuracy of t he projection. The resultant seventh alternative foresees a steady increase in the population of Highland Township resulting in a total population of 25,363 by the year 2000 (see Table 1.5 and Figure 1.4). An alternate population projection based on the apportionment method forecasts a slightly lower population for Highland Township in the year 2000. The apportionment method is based on the percentage of Oakland County's population that is expected to reside in Highland Township. Currently 1.67 percent of Oakland County's population resides in the township, up from 0.92 percent in 1970. The township's share of the county population is expected to increase slightly in future years, then level off. If Highland Township ultimately contains two percent of the county's population, then the population of the township in the year 2000 will be about 23,507 people. This estimate is calculated using SEMCOG's forecast of population for the County as a whole. - Both the apportionment method forecast and the SEMCOG forecast project continuous population growth through the year 2000. After a 26 percent increase in population in the period between 1980 and 1985, the apportionment method forecasts a leveling off in the growth rate through the year "1 I . 5 �2000. The SEMCOG forecast projects steady growth throughout the 1980-2000 period. The two forecasts are within a relatively small range in the forecast for the year 2000, with a minimum projection of 23,507 and a maximum projection of 25,363. Both the SEMCOG and Oakland County apportionment population projections were completed without consideration of the impact of the economic trough into which Michigan fell during the period this plan was under preparation. That economic trough has already been deep enough and long-lasting enough to indicate that Highland Township's population growth over the next two decades could be significantly less than projected. How much less will depend on when and to what extent Michigan 1 s economy improves during the planning period. Holding Capacity The amount of land allocated to residential use and the density of development on that land will determine the ultimate population in Highland Township. A total of 7,739.3 acres in Highland Township are in residential use according to a 1981 land use inventory completed by the Oakland County Division of Planning. Thus, the density of existing residential development is only 2.1 people per acre. According to the 1981 land-use inventory about 5,677.0 acres are vacant and about 2,314.6 acres are used for agricultural purposes. The agricultural and vacant lands are the areas where future residential development will occur. These lands must be developed at a comparatively low density because of the standards for septic systems. Based on sewer plans prepared by the Oakland County Department of Public Works and the township engineers, only existing areas of concentrated development will be serviced by new sewer construction. Thus development on other lands will be limited by the capacity of septic systems. A household survey in Highland Township found that lots of one acre or larger generally have fewer septic system difficulties. To meet requirements for isolation of wells and provision for two or more sites for the safe location of tile fields would require a 50,000 square-foot lot or more, provided that a 200-foot lot width was adhered to. As shown in Table 1.6, the potential for population growth varies depending on the amount of agricultural and vacant land allocated for residential use and the density of development on the land. Alternate A shows a lowdensity development pattern with a minimum amount of land allocated to 50,000 square foot lots. Under this scenario the population could increase by 9,179 people. Alternate C shows a high-density development pattern with forty percent of the land allocated to 50,000 square foot lots. Under this scenario the population could increase by 15,708 people. Under Alternate B the population would increase by 10,557 people with twenty percent of the land allocated to 50,000 square foot lots. It is unlikely that all of the existing agricultural and vacant lands will eventually be used for residential purposes, and it is probable that some residential development will still occur at a higher density than is provided under the 50,000 square foot lot size. The approximate holding capacity of Highland Township based on the three alternatives is as follows: 6 r r r' r r t' f2 �Alternate A (lowest density) Alternate B (intermediate density) Alternate C (maximum density) 26,150 27,528 32,679 The holding capacity estimates indicate that the population of Highland Township could continue to increase after the year 2000. A population of only 23,507 to 25,363 is projected for the township in the year 2000. Thus the population could increase by about 1,000 people to reach the low density holding capacity, or by about 9,000 to reach the high density holding capacity. TABLE 1. 1 POPULATION OF HIGHLAND TOWNSHIP AND SURROUNDING UNITS OF GOVERNMENT 1920 - 1980 Year 1920 1930 1940 1950 1960 1970 1980 Highland Townshi~ 1,075 1,206 1,726 2,944 4,855 8,372 ' 16,958 Year 1920 1930 1940 1950 1960 1970 1980 Rose Townshi~ 707 661 797 1,105 1,482 2,502 4,465 Mil ford Townshi~ 651 654 913 1,065 1,548 2,557 5,146 White Lake Townshi~ 632 1,114 1,643 4,182 8,381 14,311 21,870 Hartland Townshi~ * 856 733 1,098 1,436 2,630 6,034 Oakland Countt 90,050 211,251 254,068 396,001 690,603 907,871 1,011,793 • ... I j . I 7 �TABLE 1.2 NUMERIC AND PERCENTAGE POPULATION GROWTH FOR HIGHLAND TOWNSHIP AND SURROUNDING UNITS OF GOVERNMENT 1920-1930 1930-1940 1940-1950 1950-1960 1960-1970 1970-1980 1920-1930 1930-1940 1940-1950 1950-1960 1960-1970 1970-1980 Highland TownshiE Number Percent 12.2 131 520 43.1 70.6 1,218 1,911 64.9 3,511 72.4 8,586 102.5 Number -46 136 308 377 1,020 1,963 Mil ford TownshiE Number Percent 0.5 3 39.6 259 152 16.6 483 45.3 1,009 65.2 2,589 101.2 White Lake TownshiE Number Percent 482 76.3 529 47.5 2,539 154.5 4,199 100.4 5,930 70.7 7,559 52.8 Hartland TownshiE Number Percent * 123 14.4 365 49.8 338 30.8 1,194 83.1 3,404 129.4 Oakland Count~ Percent 134.6 20.2 55.9 74.3 31.5 11.4 Rose TownshiE Percent -6.5 20.6 38.6 34.1 68.8 78.4 Number 121,201 42,817 141,933 294,602 217,268 103,922 *Data unavailable. TABLE 1.3 POPULATION PER HOUSEHOLD FOR HIGHLAND TOWNSHIP AND SURROUNDING UNITS OF GOVERNMENT Highland Township Milford Township White Lake Township Rose Township Oakland County Housing Units 2,310 746 4,684 891 275,652 1970 People Housing Per Unit Units 3.62 5,265 3.43 1,548 3.06 7 ,036 2.81 1,307 3.29 355,187 1980 People Per Unit 3.22 3.32 3 .10 3.41 2.84 t5 - qas !£ 8 :pt �TABLE 1. 4 PROPORTION OF POPULATION IN THE 15 TO 44 AGE BRACKET Age Bracket 15 - 24 25 - 34 35 - 44 Highland Townshi~ 18.0% 19.0% 14.0% Oakland Counti 17.8% 17.1% 12.5% State of Michigan 19.3% 16.3% 11.1% United States 18 . 7% 16.3% 11.3% TOTAL 51.0% 47.4% 46.7% 46.3% Source: 1980 u. S. Census TABLE 1.5 POPULATION PROJECTIONS FOR HIGHLAND TOWNSHIP 1980 1985 1990 1995 2000 SEMCOG Projection 16,958 18,826 21,231 23,666 25,363 Apportionment Method Projection 16,958 21,398 22,022 22,522 23,507 1980 Population based on 1980 U. S. Census. TABLE 1.6 ALTERNATE POPULATION GROWTH PATTERNS 50,000 Sq. Ft. Parcels Five Acre Parcels Ten Acre Parcels ALTERNATE A: 15 Percent 4,674 40 Percent 2,883 45 Percent 1,622 ALTERNATE A 9,179 ALTERNATE B: 20 Percent 6,232 40 Percent 2,883 40 Percent 1,442 ALTERNATE B 10,557 ALTERNATE C: 40 Percent 12,464 30 Percent 2,163 30 Percent 1,081 ALTERNATE C 15,708 Totals Population estimates are based on a standard of 2.99 persons per household. 9 �J J J -, -I ...I - - ,,,,. 2. COMMERCIAL BASE ANALYSIS �2. COMMERCIAL BASE ANALYSIS Existing Commercial Facilities Existing commercial facilities in Highland Township are concentrated in four locations: 1) along Milford Road from Lone Tree Road to Wardlow Road; 2) along Highland Road (M-59) near Duck Lake Road; 3) on Highland Road at Hickory Ridge Road; and 4) on the east side of North Duck Lake Road near Beaumont. Other commercial facilities are located along the north and south portions of Milford Road and in locations scattered throughout the township . Commercial facilities in Highland Township sell predominantly conveniencetype goods. Convenience goods are those that are used on a day-to-day basis; they include groceries, drugs, and hardware. Businesses that market convenience goods usually have a small trade area that encompasses adjacent residential neighborhoods. Only a few businesses in Highland Township sell comparison goods such as clothing, furniture, appliances, jewelry and similar items. Comparison goods are more costly than convenience goods and are purchased less frequently. Normally, a comparison goods store has a large trade area encompassing several neighborhoods. Highland Township does not have a large enough population to support very extensive comparison facilities. Township residents rely largely on regional shopping centers, such as the Twelve Oaks Mall and the Pontiac Mall, for their comparison goods. J J J 7 - 7 ,... 7 11 i:8 �. Milford Road Commercial Corridor Scattered commercial development extends along Milford Road between Lone Tree Road and Wardlow Road. This corridor contains a mixture of commercial, industrial and residential uses. The corridor includes the Central Highland commercial area between Livingston Road and Highland Road, a few small shopping/office plazas and scattered roadside development. The Central Highland commercial area is relatively old and shows some signs of deterioration. The most viable-appearing businesses along Milford Road are located in small shopping plazas between Lone Tree Road and Livingston Road. The Milford Road corridor contains (as of mid-1982) a broad variety of businesses, but it does not provide a full range of convenience or comparison goods and services. The Milford Road commercial corridor contains several specialty food stores (but no supermarket), a drugstore, two hardware and paint stores, and take-out restaurants. The corridor also contains several professional and general office establishments, personal service establishments, and other service establishments. Several specialty stores are located along the Milford Road corridor. These include two craft shops, a produce store, a butcher shop, a pottery shop, a horse care supply store, a photography studio, an amusement arcade and a wine-making supplies store. Specialty stores, which comprise a relatively high proportion of the commercial space in the Milford Road corridor, provide generally nonessential goods and services to residents. East Highland Commercial Area The East Highland commercial area contains three small plazas, office buildings and a variety of highway-oriented businesses. Compared to the Milford Road corridor, the East Highland Commercial area is relatively compact with little vacant land between businesses. The East Highland area contains the only supermarket in Highland Township. It also contains specialty food stores, a full service drugstore and two hardware stores. The East Highland Area contains restaurants, professional and general office establishments, personal service establishments (barber shop, beauty shop, dry cleaner, laundry) and other service establishments (heating and plumbing repair, printing, car wash). East Highland also contains a few comparison goods stores including a clothing store, an electronics shop, and a cycle sales store. Although most East Highland commercial buildings are in generally good condition, some older structures show signs of deterioration and lack of maintenance. Two vacancies were noted in the East Highland area at the time of this commercial base analysis. T f' T I T T T T T T T [,.. West Highland Commercial Area The West Highland Commercial area, located at the intersection of Highland Road with Hickory Ridge Road, contains seven businesses. This commercial area is primarily highway service in nature, with two convenience food stores and two gas station/automobile repair shops. ,. 12 �Duck Lake Commercial Area The Duck Lake commercial area is generally located along Duck Lake Road between Wardlow Road and Divista Drive; however, the majority of businesses in the area can be found between Summit and Davista. The Duck Lake commercial area contains twelve businesses including a beauty salon, boat livery, dairy store, party store, resale shop, laundromat, dentist, engineering office, VFW hall, day care center and cycle shop. Some of the businesses are located in residential areas along Duck Lake Road. Several of these enterprises are in converted residential structures; many of the structures in the area show signs of deterioration and lack of maintenance. Projection of Future Commercial Development Projection of future commercial development in Highland Township is a fivestep process: 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. Determination Determination Determination potential. Determination Determination of trade area. of future trade area sales potential. of locally captured portion of future sales of floor area requirements. of land area requirements. Each of these five steps is discussed in detail below. Determination of Trade Area J J J ] ,,.. ,,.. The most import ant determinants of the trade area of shopping facilities is their accessibility and the.location of competing facilities. Shoppers will travel longer distances if they can travel over high-speed, uncongested thoroughfares. Shoppers will rarely travel very far past one shopping area to get to another which offers essentially the same goods and services. The trade area for convenience goods is generally limited to immediately surrounding residential areas. Because convenience goods purchases are made frequently, people are not usually willing to travel great distances. Convenience goods stores in Highland Township could expect to capture most of the convenience goods trade within the township, plus a small portion from nearby townships including Milford, White Lake, Rose, Springfield and Hartland. The trade area for comparison goods usually encompasses a broader area. Since comparison goods purchases are costly and made infrequently, people are willing to travel longer distances to find the best combination of quality, selection, service and price. The primary trade area for comparison facilities could encompass the area within a 25 to 30 minute driving distance. The secondary trade area, which includes customers who shop ' 13 �occasionally at a given shopping area, may encompass an area within 45 to 60 minutes driving distance. Based on these standards, the primary trade area for comparison goods in Highland Township could include all of the township itself, plus portions of all the surrounding townships except Brighton Township. The secondary trade area for comparison goods could encompass the remaining portions of the eight surrounding townships. Determination of Future Trade Area Sales Potential Determination of future trade area sales potential is based on population growth, per capita income and trade area retail expenditure patterns. Current and projected populations for the trade area are presented in Table 2.1. The trade area for Highland Township encompasses many of the high growth areas in southeastern Michigan. The areas east of Highland Township have experienced especially high growth in recent years because of their location on the fringe of metropolitan Detroit area suburban development. Southeast Michigan Council of Governments (SEMCOG) population forecasts indicate the growth will continue. A 35 percent increase is projected for the year 1990, and a 24 percent increase is projected for the year 2000 in the Highland Township trade area. Much of the projected growth will occur near major transportation corridors or on the outer fringes of the trade area as an extension of existing suburban development. Table 2.2 shows estimates of total personal income in each unit of government in the Highland Township trade area. The estimates are expressed in 1980 dollars and are based on 1977 per capita income figures updated to 1980 based on changes in the consumer price index. T Data collected by Sales and Marketing Management and the 1977 U. S. Census of Retail Trade indicate that, in the Detroit metropolitan area, between 40 and 45 percent of personal income is spent on retail goods . As shown in the breakdown in Table 2.3, about 15.5 percent is spent for convenience goods, about 13.1 percent for comparison goods and about 11.8 percent for automotive goods. Determination of Locally Captured Portion of Future Sales Potential Not all of the retail expenditures in the Highland Township trade area will actually go to businesses in Highland Township. Provided that a total range of convenience goods is available, it is likely that the convenience goods facilities in Highland Township could capture most of the market. However, it is probable that a small portion of residents, especially those living near Milford, will make convenience goods purchases outside the township. It is estimated that about 85 percent of the convenience goods market within the township could be captured. Because of location, road patterns and future road paving programs, it is also likely that Highland Township business could capture a portion of the convenience goods market in adjoining townships as follows: 14 T T (,.. .,. .,.. �Milford Township White Lake Township Rose Township Springfield Township Hartland Township 15 10 25 15 20 percent percent percent percent percent Comparison goods stores in Highland Township are likely to capture only a portion of the total sales in the trade area because of competing facilities several miles away. Customers are often attracted to regional shopping centers because in one locat i on they can compare the goods offered at several different stores. The Highland Township trade area is overlapped by two regional shopping centers, Twelve Oaks Mall and Pontiac Mall. In addition, several smaller community shopping centers which are located south and east of the township overlap the township's trade area. It is unlikely that a large shopping center could succeed in Highland Township because of its low population density. For example, the primary trade area population for a large regional center recently built in south central Michigan contained over 200,000 people; the primary trade area population in Highland Township is about half this figure. New comparison goods facilities in Highland Township would also encounter the difficulty of altering shopping patterns of customers who are drawn toward existing shopping centers. The existing facilities in Highland Township provide only a minor portion of comparison goods purchased by its residents. With further development in the two main commercial areas, along Milford Road and in East Highland along Highland Road, it is estimated that up to 50 percent of the comparison goods market in Highland Township could be captured. It is also estimated that about 5 percent of the market in White Lake Township and about 10 percent of the market in Rose Township could be captured by comparison goods facilities located in Highland Township. ] J J ,... --, Based on the retail sales capture rates outlined above, potential total retail sales volumes in Highland Township are as follow: 1980, $58,712,492; 1990, $77,176,191; and 2000, $89,811,676. The components of these sales volumes are shown in Tables 2.4-2.6. Determination of Retail Floor Area Requirements Sales volume estimates can be converted into floor space needs with sales per square foot data. The Urban Land Institute's Dollars and Cents of Shopping Centers sets forth sales per square foot of floor area as follows: Convenience goods Comparison goods Automotive goods $143.12 per square foot 81.35 per square foot 113.41 per square foot These estimates have been updated and expressed in 1980 dollars using the cost-of-living index. A more detailed breakdown of sales per square foot is shown in Table 2.7. Based on these data concerning sales per square foot, the total need for retail building space in Highland Township is as follows: 1980, 454,546 square feet; 1990, 579,555 square feet; and 2000, 693,968 square feet. Table 2.8 gives a more detailed breakdown of retail space needs by type of commercial use. ,,. 15 �Determination of Office Facility Floor Area Requirements Projections of office space needs are based on the average number of people that c~n be served by various office operations and on the average size of each type of office. Estimates of office space needs are shown in Table 2.9. Total office space needs are as follows: 1980, 268,250 square feet; 1990, 321,183 square feet; and 2000, 370,171 square feet. The office space needs for finance, insurance and real estate operations were calculated using standards of one office worker per 63 people and an average of 160 square feet of office space per worker. For medical and dental the standards used were one physician per 565 people and one dentist per 1,778 people with an average office size of 955 square feet. For law offices the standards used were one lawyer per 473 people with an average of 600 square feet of office space per lawyer. Miscellaneous office services includes engineers, architects, bookkeeping services, business education and similar services. The standard of 2 square feet of miscellaneous office service space per person was used. Business services include personal service establishments (e.g. laundry, beauty shops, and barber shops), miscellaneous business services (e.g. advertising, data processing, maintenance service, automotive repair or rental, miscellaneous repair and recreation uses). Business service establishments range in average size from 800 to 1,680 square feet. There is approximately one personal service establishment per 493 people, one business service establishment per 5,725 people, one automotive repair or rental service per 1,573 people and one miscellaneous repair shop per 1,829 people. T l Determination of Land Area Requirements Floor space needs can be converted into land area needs based on floor area ratios. The lot size for commercial establishments depends on parking needs, open space requirements, pedestrian and automobile circulation, loading area requirements, and similar considerations. A general standard for shopping centers is that the parking area should be four times the gross floor area of the building. With other site features included, the total site area should be about six times the gross floor area. Floor area ratios for other commercial land uses are shown in Table 2.10. Based on the floor area ratio data, the total land area needs for retail and office uses were calculated as 1980, 120.8 acres; 1990, 150.9 acres; and 2000, 178.0 acres. A more detailed breakdown of land area needs is shown in Table 2.11. The estimated land area needs in Table 2.11 are based on the existing building area to land area ratios throughout the Detroit metropolitan area. The actual ratio in Highland Township may differ. Comparison to Existing Land Use Based on a commercial land use survey completed by the consultant in early 1981, it is estimated that about 146 acres are currently being used for commercial and office uses. This estimate does not include vacant land zoned but not used for commercial purposes, nor does it include a large 16 T ~ T T �tract occupied by a commercial nursery. The 146 acres currently used exceeds the projected 1980 need for commercial and office uses of 120.8 acres (see Table 2.7). Compared to the Detroit metropolitan area, therefore, the Highland Township trade area has a slightly greater proportion of its land allocated to commercial uses. The 1981 field survey revealed there are three possible reasons for the high proportion of commercial land: 1) being a rural township, many of the commercial uses occupy a greater amount of land than is absolutely necessary; 2) the township contains a number of nonessential specialty and craft stores in greater proportions than are usually found in commercial areas; and, 3) rather than being served by a few large full-service grocery stores, drugstores and similar establishments that provide essential goods and services, the township is served by several smaller, convenience-type establishments that occupy a substantial amount of land. The estimated commercial land need in Highland Township is 150.9 acres in 1990, and 178 acres in the year 2000, indicating that additional commercial and office development will be needed in the next two decades to serve the trade area population. ] ] - Future population growth in Highland Township will support some additional convenience retail development. Residents could benefit most from one or more supermarkets to supplement the one supermarket and the assortment of smaller food stores now in the township. The township's one existing supermarket is located near the eastern edge of the township. Future supermarket development should occur where it will be easily accessible to residents of other parts of the township. Additional comparison retail facilities can be supported in the township, but projected population growth will not support a major comparison shopping center. The largest retail complex which could be supported in Highland Township might contain between 100,000 and 135,000 square feet of retail space. Such a commercial complex could include a 30,000 to 40,000 square-foot supermarket, a 10,000 to 15,000 square-foot drug store, a 10,000 to 20,000 square-foot hardware store, and between 50,000 and 70,000 square feet of other convenience and comparison retail uses. A shopping center with 100,000 to 135,000 square feet of retail floor area could require a site of between 15 to 20 acres and should be centrally located. It is entirely possible that the township's future retail needs can be met without development of such a large shopping complex. The township's existing commercial areas contain vacant parcels which could accommodate a substantial amount of 11 i.nfill 11 commercial development. Few 15- to 20-acre infill parcels exist or could easily be assembled, but there are sufficient number of parcels to meet all of the township's retail needs. Altogether, infill on vacant and non-commercial properties in the existing commercial areas could provide for approximately 60 acres of additional commercial development. These 60 acres would accommodate the entire projected additional commercial land need for Highland Township to the year 2000. The acreage between Milford Road and the Highland Hills Mobile Home Park could also be used in part for commercial development if necessitated by future demand. ... ,... 17 �[J Recreation-Oriented Commercial Development There may be a strong potential for recreation-oriented commerce in Highland Township. Such recreation-oriented business could be based on the township's natural beauty, particularly the state-owned Highland Recreation Area. As the price of gasoline increases, the prospects of successful recreation-based commerce in Highland Township will improve because the township is relatively close to major population centers. Most of the recreation-oriented business in Highland Township will result from day-trip tourism which generates a strong demand for eating and drinking establishments. Other businesses that will be needed include recreation supply stores, equipment rental facilities, and similar recreation sales and service establishments. There may also be a potential for overnight accommodations in the form of campground facilities . Generally, successful campground facilities are developed around a family-oriented theme that is compatible with the recreation opportunities in the surrounding environment. Little demand for motel facilities is foreseen in Highland Township, since high visibility from a major freeway is necessary for motel success. New business to serve the tourist market should be located within the existing commercial corridors along Milford Road and M-59. Such a location would be easily accessible from the Highland Recreation Area in the southeast quarter of the township and could enhance the viability of these existing commercial areas. I I I 18 J J :J --,,- �TABLE 2.1 POPULATION GROWTH IN THE HIGHLAND TOWNSHIP TRADE AREA Highland Township Milford Township Milford Village White Lake Township Rose Township Springfield Township Commerce Township Tyrone Township Hartland Township Brighton Township TOTAL 1980 16,958 5,146 5,041 21,870 4,465 8,295 23,757 6,077 6,034 11,222 108,865 2000 1990 21,231 25,363 7,998 9,174 5,033 4,982 29,098 31,986 6,135 7,612 24,850 14,231 24,470 25,934 7,637 13,037 7,258 10,697 18,290 21,615 141,381 175,250 (29.9% (24.0% increase) increase) Notes: 1980 figures are based on the 1980 U. S. Census; 1990 and 2000 projections are based on forecasts by the Southeast Michigan Council of Governments (SEMCOG). TABLE 2.2 TOTAL PERSONAL INCOME IN HIGHLAND TOWNSHIP TRADE AREA Highland Township Milford Township Milford Village White Lake Township Rose Township Springfield Township Commerce Township Tyrone Township Hartland Township Brighton Township ] 1980 $153,990,000 46,689,436 42,506,596 214,500,000 33,948,559 64,672,568 179,560,000 51,323,485 49,651,894 106,180,000 1990 $192,640,000 72,648,762 42,421,583 286,570,000 36,087,318 110,980,000 235,760,000 64,565,000 59,632,000 172,860,000 2000 $230,200,000 83,328,000 41,997,367 314,940,000 44,784,362 193,770,000 249,910,000 110,210,000 87,898,000 204,320,000 Notes: 1980 estimates are based on 1977 per capital income figures, published by the U. S. Census, updated to 1980 dollars using the following formula: 1980 1980 1977 Cost of = total X population per capita X living income income increase 1990 and 2000 estimates are based on SEMCOG population forecasts and are expressed in 1980 dollars. J J 1- 19 �• I TABLE 2.3 EXPENDITURES OF PERSONAL INCOME IN THE DETROIT METROPOLITAN AREA CONVENIENCE GOODS Hardware stores Food stores Eating and drinking establishments Pharmacies Miscellaneous convenience goods TOTAL 0.4% 9.1 % 3.8% 1.6% 0.6% 15 . 5% COMPARISON GOODS General merchandise 6.1 % Apparel and accessories 2.4% Furniture, appliances 2.1 % Building materials, garden supplies 1.3% Miscellaneous comparison goods 1.2% TOTAL 13.1% AUTOMOTIVE (Includes parts supply, and gasoline) TOTAL 11.8% 11.8% TOTAL 40.4% Note: Table is based on 1977 expenditures of income. ◄ c,_:: r 20 , 1 , - �TABLE 2.4 POTENTIAL RETAIL SALES IN HIGHLAND TOWNSHIP: Convenience Goods Source $20,288,000 Highland Township 1,085,529 Mil ford Township Milford Village 0 3,324,800 White Lake Township 1,315,500 Rose Township Springfield Township 150,360 Commerce Township 0 Tyrone Township 0 1,539,200 Hartland Township Brighton Township 0 $27,703,389 TOTAL 1980 Comparison Goods $8,069,100 0 0 1,405,000 447,730 0 0 0 0 0 $9,918,830 Automotive Goods $15,445,000 826,403 0 2,531,100 1,001,500 114,470 0 0 1,171,800 0 $21,090,273 Note: All estimates are in 1980 dollars; estimates are based on expenditures of personal income in the following pattern: convenience goods, 15.5 percent of personal income; comparison goods, 13.1 percent; and, automotive goods, 11.8 percent; estimates are based on partial capture of retail sales in Highland Township trade area. See text for explanation. TABLE 2.5 POTENTIAL RETAIL SALES IN HIGHLAND TOWNSHIP: Convenience Source Goods Highland Township $25,288,000 Milford Township 1,687,998 Milford Village 0 White Lake Township 4,441,933 Rose Township 1,807,497 Springfield Township 258,018 Commerce Township 0 Tyrone Township 0 Hartland Township 1,848,579 Brighton Township 0 TOTAL $35,332,025 1990 Comparison Goods $10,094,444 0 0 1,877,080 611,059 0 0 0 0 0 $14,876,040 Automotive Goods $19,321,126 1,285,057 0 3,381,550 1,376,061 196,431 0 0 1,407,332 0 $26,968,126 Note: All estimates are in 1980 dollars; estimates are based on expenditures of personal income in the following pattern: convenience goods, 15.5 percent of personal income; comparison goods, 13.1 percent; and, automotive goods, 11.8 percent; estimates are based on partial capture of retail sales in Highland Township trade area. See text for full explanation. 21 �,_ I- TABLE 2.6 POTENTIAL RETAIL SALES IN HIGHLAND TOWNSHIP: 2000 Automotive Comparison Convenience Goods Goods Goods Source -$30,310,272 $12,055,235 $23,074,830 Highland Township 1,473,477 1,935,498 0 Milford Township 0 0 0 Milford Village 3,715,655 2,062,540 4,880,806 White Lake Township 1,707,558 758,265 2,242,928 Rose Township 342,952 450,479 0 Springfield Township 0 0 0 Commerce Township 0 0 0 Tyrone Township 2,075,258 2,725,923 0 Hartland Township 0 0 Brighton Township 0 $42,545,906 $14,876,040 $32,389,730 TOTAL Note: All estimates are in 1980 dollars; estimates are based on expenditures of personal income in the following pattern: convenience goods, 15.5 percent of personal income; comparison goods, 13.1 percent; and, automotive goods, 11.8 percent; estimates are based on partial capture of retail sales in Highland Township trade area. See text for full explanation. - r _,. r - TABLE 2.7 SALES PER SQUARE FOOT OF GROSS LEASABLE AREA Junior department store Variety store Supermarket Super drugstore Drug store Restaurant Fast-food restaurant Clothing store Shoe store Home appliance, music store Gifts, specialty stores Jewelry Personal services Beauty shop Barber shop Cleaners Liquor store Hardware $ 78.64 47.56 265 .10 125.54 160.83 105.95 148.84 91.44 87.52 135 .15 63.26 134 . 22 66.55 60.87 48.35 183. 72 49.04 Source: D?llars and Cents of Shopping Centers 1978, published by the Urban Land Institute, updated and expressed in 1980 dollars using the cost of living index. r ... -... 22 - �TABLE 2.8 RETAIL SPACE NEEDS (Gross Leasable Area) CONVENIENCE GOODS Food stores Eating and drinking establishments Pharmacies Hardware, paint stores Miscellaneous convenience goods COMPARISON GOODS General merchandise Apparel and accessories Furniture and appliances Building materials and garden supplies Miscellaneous comparison goods AUTOMOTIVE (including parts and gasoline) TOTAL 1980 Square Feet 1990 Square Feet 2000 Square Feet 154,518 61,353 53,323 17,776 14,575 7,491 114,063 58,726 20,308 11,765 12,095 11,169 185,965 454,546 197,069 78,248 68,007 22,672 18,588 9,554 144,693 74,497 25,761 14,924 15,343 14,168 237,793 579,555 237,303 94,224 81,892 27,300 22,383 11,504 171,067 88,076 30,457 17,644 18,140 16,750 285,598 693,968 1980 Square Feet 1990 Square Feet 2000 Square Feet 43,101 37,765 21,528 33,941 131,915 268,250 53,920 47,694 26,932 42,462 150,175 321,183 64,414 55,643 32,173 50,726 167,215 370,171 TABLE 2.9 OFFICE SPACE NEEDS IN HIGHLAND TOWNSHIP Finance, insurance, real estate Medical, dental Legal Miscellaneous office services Business services TOTAL 23 �i.- TABLE 2.10 PARKING AND SITE REQUIREMENTS Land Use Banks Beauty, barber shops Fast-food restaurant Restaurant, sit-down Furniture and appliance store, repair shop Laundry Supermarket General offices Medical offices Parking Spaces Reguired 1/250 square feet 1/50 square feet 1/75 square feet 1/100 square feet 1/800 square feet 3.6 10.0 7.5 6.0 2.0 square square square square 7.5 6.0 4.0 6.0 1/75 1/100 1/200 1/100 feet feet feet feet Site Area Reguired times gross floor area times gross floor area times gross floor area times gross floor area times gross floor area times times times times gross gross gross gross floor floor floor floor area area area area ..... ,,. - ..,... ..,... TABLE 2.11 LAND AREA NEEDS 1980 Acres 1990 Acres 2000 Acres 20.1 8.5 7.3 1.8 1.5 1.0 12.5 8.1 2.1 0.5 0.8 1.0 51.2 37.0 4.0 5.2 2.0 1. 6 24.2 120.8 25.7 10.8 9.4 2.3 1. 9 1.3 16.1 10.3 2.7 0.7 1.1 1.3 65.5 43.6 5.0 6.6 2.5 1.9 27.6 -150.9 31.0 13.0 11.3 2.8 2.3 1.6 18. 7 12.1 3.1 0.8 1. 2 1. 5 78.7 49.6 5.9 7.7 3.0 2.3 30.7 178 . 0 -, CONVENIENCE GOODS Food stores Eating and drinking establishments Pharmacies Hardware, paint stores Miscellaneous convenience goods COMPARISON GOODS General merchandise Apparel and accessories Furniture and appliances Building materials and garden supplies Miscellaneous comparison goods AUTOMOTIVE (including parts and gasoline) OFFICE USES Finance, insurance, real estate Medical, dental Legal Miscellaneous office services Business services TOTAL 24 ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ [.. ... [. �J ] 3. INDUSTRIAL BASE ANALYSIS ] - �3. INDUSTRIAL BASE ANALYSIS Existing Industrial Development Highland Township is centrally located in the industrial south central region of Michigan. Although the township is predominantly a rural community, it is surrounded by the urban centers of Detroit, Pontiac, Flint, Lansing, and Ann Arbor. The regional economy of south central Michigan is dominated by the automobile industry and other manufacturing industries. The predominance of the automobile industry and manufacturing is reflected in the industrial development in Highland Township. Ten of the approximately 16 industrial concerns in the township are involved in manufacturing. There are also two building contractors, a grain elevator , two machine shops and three utility facilities. Among the products manufactured in Highland Township are air control valves for machinery, industrial cutting tools, coils for small engines, septic tanks and other concrete products, metal buildings, welding supplies, and lighting fixtures. Eleven of the Highland Township's 15 largest industries are "basic" industries that manufacture goods for sale outside the community. Because their products are sold outside the community, basic industries generally expand and strengthen the local economy. In contrast, about ninety percent of the businesses in the township, including five industries, primarily provide only for local needs. Generally, these businesses do not aid in the growth of the local economy even though they provide necessary goods and services. With 300 employees, Numatics, Incorporated is the largest employer in the township. From its Highland Township headquarters, Numatics, Incorporated operates facilities which manufacture air control valves throughout the United States. About 35 percent of its Highland Township product is marketed to automobile companies. The township's second largest employer is Agnew Machine Company which has 65 employees. Agnew manufactures industrial cutting machines and tools. The township's third largest employer, Hi-Mill Manufacturing, employs 60 people. It has employed as many as 135 people in the past. Hi-Mill Manufacturing fabricates tubular products that are used in air conditioning units. A fourth large industrial employer is Polycast, Incorporated, with 50 employees. This firm manufactures welding rods and equipment. The remaining industries in the township are small, employing 20 or fewer people. Except for Numatics, Incorporated, all the industries are single-unit operations with their only facilities located in Highland Township. The pace of industrial development in Highland Township has been slow during the last decade. Two new industries have begun operation and Numatics, Incorporated has expanded its facilities. 25 �Most of the township's industrial concerns are located along Milford Road between M-59 and Wardlow Road. Industries in this area have convenient access to highway transportation along M-59. Some industrial facilities are located elsewhere in the township, primarily along Milford Road and M-59. ,.... I ~ ~ r ~ ....., 26 .,.. �Potential for New Industrial Development Highland Township's location is its most important determinant of industrial potential. The township is approximately equidistant from the major urban centers of Detroit, Pontiac, Flint, Lansing, and Ann Arbor. Although the township's location does not place it very close to the major industrial markets, it is suitable for industries that either: 1) sell their products in several of Michigan's urban centers rather then just in one or two, and/or 2) sell their products to manufacturers located closer to the markets, and/or 3) manufacture products that are not bulky and can be economically transported over longer distances. Compared to more urban industrial areas, another advantage of a Highland Township site is the amount of space available for plant start-up and expansion. The natural features and rural environment in Highland Township are additional characteristics that may attract industry. Also, Highland Township is a growth area. The increased population in Highland Township and surrounding townships will open new markets that may attract industry. For certain industries Highland Township is not an ideal location. The township is not particularly suitable for labor intensive industries. The labor force is often drawn to higher paying employment in the surrounding urban centers. The management of the township's manufacturing firms is aware that this problem is especially acute when the economy is strong and the automobile companies are at full employment. Industries that manufacture bulky products that are difficult to transport would not find Highland Township an ideal location. As transportation costs increase, these industries will experience very high costs to obtain raw materials and to ship the finished product. It is likely that warehousing, distribution and wholesaling companies have not located in Highland Township because of the costs that would be involved in transporting the products to and from distant urban centers. Research firms also would probably not consider Highland Township as a good location since it does not contain a major university. Because of Michigan's currently weak economy, only limited potential exists for new industrial development in the near future in Highland Township. Other industries in Michigan form the market for Highland Township industries. Local industries recently have had to reduce production and cutback employment. When the economy rebounds, existing industries generally will be brought back into full production before new industrial development occurs in Highland Township or elsewhere. Some analysts predict that the automobile companies will never achieve previous production levels. Consequently, suppliers to the automobile companies must find new markets before they can completely recover and achieve full production. 27 �---~---~~-----~~~----~a .,..... ...... Locational Requirements for Industry ACCESS TO TRANSPORTATION: The primary industrial location determinant is fast, easy and convenient access to transportation facilities. The two most important roads crossing Highland Township are state highway M-59 (east-west) and Milford Road, a primary county road (north-south). M-59 provides access to US-23, a limited access north-south highway located about four miles west of the township. The Chesapeake and Ohio Railroad line runs north-south approximately in the center of the township. However, there are no sites along the railroad which are suitable for railroadoriented industrial uses. Highland Township does not have convenient access to a major airport. The Pontiac Airport is located a few miles east of the township on M-59, but it is not served by major air carriers. ACCESS TO LABOR FORCE: Industry must be located where there is an adequate labor supply. The Highland Township labor supply exceeds the demands of the existing industry in the township. It is estimated that the Highland Township labor force numbered about 6,350 in 1980 of which about 2,300 were employed in industry. Highland Township industries, however, provide only about 600 jobs. The labor supply will continue to grow in future years as more people move into the township. Employment and labor supply are analyzed in greater detail later in this chapter. However, the township's labor supply will seek out employers able to meet very competitive wage scales. ADEQUATE SITE AREA: Industry needs large sites free from foundation and drainage problems. Industrial sites must not only provide room for the initial operation, but also for future expansion. Highland Township has adequate sites for industrial use. These sites can accommodate new industry as well as industries which relocate to Highland Township because their existing sites are inadequate. However, some of the largest parcels in the township may be unsuitable for industry because of limitations such as lack of utilities and incompatible surrounding land uses. AVAILABILITY OF UTILITIES: Industry needs an adequate and reliable supply of utilities including water, waste disposal, power and fuel. Thus far, Highland Township industries have not experienced serious problems with utilities. The township receives electrical service from Detroit Edison Company and natural gas service from Consumers Power Company. Since the township is not served by sewers or water mains, each industry has its own on-site septic system and is supplied with water from private wells. Water quality and public health problems have been reported in certain parts of the township because of malfunctioning septic systems, but local industries have not yet experienced such problems. Future industrial development should be regulated to prevent water and/or sewage disposal problems. Small sewage treatment systems may eventually be necessary to serve several industries or an industrial park. I \ I PROPER LAND USE RELATIONSHIPS: Industrial sites should be located to minimize undesired effects on neighboring land uses and to protect industrial land from the encroachment of residential or other land uses. Highland Township places a high value on the preservation of natural areas and the protection of the quality of residential development. To minimize 28 l �i industrial-residential land use friction, industrial development should be limited to specific sites along Milford Road and M-59. Adequate spatial and physical buffers should be provided between industrial and nonindustrial uses. LOCATIONAL REQUIREMENTS SUMMARY: Based on the preceding analysis, there is a definite but modest potential for certain types of industrial development in Highland Township. Convenient access to transportation facilities exists, but because of the distance to suppliers and markets in major urban centers it would be uneconomical to transport bulky raw materials or finished products. The labor supply is substantial and utilities have been supplied adequately and reliably (although continuous monitoring of sewage disposal and water supply systems will be required in the future) . Land area exists along the two major transportation corridors, Milford Road and M-59. Restrictions on the use of this land are necessary to protect the township's natural features and residential areas from any undesired effects of industry. Employment Projections and Industrial Land Use Needs Employment projections for Highland Township are shown in Table 3.1 based on SEMCOG population projections. It is estimated that the work force will increase from 6,364 in 1980 to 9,511 in the year 2000. In the same period, it is projected that the industrial work force will increase from 2,342 to 3,500 employees. Manufacturing employment trends in Oakland County between 1970 and 1979 indicate that industrial employment may actually decrease as a proportion of total employment. In 1979, manufacturing employment comprised 24.9 percent of total county employment, a decrease of 9.2 percent since 1970. Both automation and decreased industrial production account for the proportional drop in manufacturing employment. The manufacturing employment in Highland Township comprised 37.2 percent of the total work force in 1970. Based on the Oakland County trends, it is expected that Highland Township will experience proportionally less manufacturing employment in future years, approaching the 28 . 9 percent estimates used in the projections for the year 2000 in Table 3.1. Small area forecasts prepared by SEMCOG in 1975 projected employment within township businesses. Of the several forecasts prepared, the most widely accepted is based on 11 local plans modified by trends in local policy changes. 11 In 1970, the base year for the forecast, 213 people were employed in basic industry and 568 were employed in nonbasic industry. Thus only about 27 percent of the labor force actually worked within the township. As seen in Table 3.1, the small area forecast did foresee limited employment increases within the township. Basic employment for the year 2000 was forecast at 724 and nonbasic employment was forecast at 3,504. Thus by the year 2000 it is estimated that about 45 percent of the industrial work force will be employed within the township. Estimated employment can be used to predict the amount of industrial land and building space that will be needed in the future. As shown in Table 3.2, the number of employees per gross acre of industrial land ranges from an average of 24 for labor-intensive industries to 8 for labor-extensive 29 �.....- industries. Most industries in Highland Township would be intermediatelabor-extensive with about 10 to 12 employees per gross acre. Based on this employee/land ratio, the gross industrial acreage needed to employ the projected Highland Township labor force is approximately 195 acres in 1980 and 292 acres by year 2000. Industrial building space needs are estimated at 1.05 million square feet in 1980 and 1.57 million square feet by year 2000. Net industrial site acreage needs are estimated at 156 acres in 1980 and 233 acres by year 2000 (see Table 3.3). The actual industrial land and building needs within the township depend on the proportion of the total industrial labor force that actually works within township industries. As noted earlier, about 27 percent of the industrial labor force currently works within the township and about 45 percent is expected to work within the township by year 2000 (see Table 3.4). The industrial building space need within the township is 284,553 square feet for 1980 and 708,750 square feet for the year 2000. The net industrial site acreage need within the township is 42 acres for 1980 and 105 acres for the year 2000. According to the 1979 land-use inventory prepared by the Oakland County Planning Commission, about 145 acres in Highland Township are in industrial use. Based on the number of industrial employees in the township, the amount of industrial acreage is relatively high. Compared to industries in more urban locations where land is at a premium, Highland Township industrial sites are larger with more space for expansion. In the near future, while the economy remains in a weak state, it is not expected that much additional industrial acreage will be needed in Highland Township. The commuting employment pattern will continue with about 75 percent of the industrial employees working outside the township. As the economy becomes stronger, opportunities will exist for additional industrial development in the township resulting in local employment for a greater proportion of the township's labor force. By the year 2000 it is expected that another 100 to 150 acres of land can be absorbed by new industry. It is usual for land use plans to provide for two or three times the projected twenty-year industrial land need. Summary and Conclusions The following conclusions are derived from the industrial base analysis: 1. 2. At least 200 additional acres should be reserved for industrial use. The industrial land should be located close to the township's main transportation corridor, Highway M-59. It is expected that the additional industrial land will be absorbed gradually as Michigan's economy strengthens. Because Highland Township places a high value on the quality of its natural beauty and residential areas, new industries should be those which are not harmful because of excessive traffic, noise, air or water pollution, or similar effects. Light manufacturing industries have experienced a high degree of success in the township and are probably the most appropriate industries with a strong potential for locating or expanding in the township. ""JIii"""' r I'"" • -r .. .. ,,,. "" ,,, , .... .... .... 30 �3. Attention must be given to the design of industrial areas so that economic development and land-use planning goals are coordinated. Generally, the most efficient and economical plan for industrial areas is achieved through design and development of industrial parks. Industrial development within an industrial park generally provides for better protection of the nonindustrial areas of the township. The design process provides controls over location, site development, spatial and physical buffering, and traffic patterns. A well-designed industrial park can also be an effective tool to attract the desired kinds of industry into the township. 4. Continuous monitoring is required as additional industrial development occurs in order to maintain water quality and supply and prevent waste disposal problems. The competitive advantage of township industries is strengthened by maintaining the adequacy of utilities. 31 �• .. '"I .., TABLE 3.1 WORK FORCE PROJECTIONS FOR HIGHLAND TOWNSHIP 1980 1990 2000 Total Work Force -- Work Force Employed in Industry Work Force Employed in Basic Industry 6,364 7,962 9,511 2,342 3,930 3,500 1,839 2,301 2,749 Note: Estimates are based on the following standards: a) total work force is 37.5 percent of total population; b) industrial employees comprise 36.8 percent of work force; c) basic industry employees comprise 28.0 percent of work force. TABLE 3.2 EMPLOYMENT CHARACTERISTICS OF VARIOUS TYPES OF INDUSTRY Employees Per Gross Industrial Acre Labor Intensive 24 Intermediate Extensive 10 Extensive 8 Square Feet Per Employee 171 482 1,262 r Employees Per Net Site Acre 30 14 8 Note: Labor intensive industries include research firms, hand production facilities, and similar businesses. Labor extensive industries include warehousing and distribution facilities, automated production facilities and similar businesses. Source: Industrial Development Handbook, published by the Urban Land Institute, 1975. T 32 �TABLE 3.3 INDUSTRIAL LAND AND BUILDING NEEDS FOR HIGHLAND TOWNSHIP LABOR FORCE 1980 1990 2000 Projected Industrial Labor Force 2,342 2,930 3,500 Gross Industrial Acreage Needed 195 244 292 Industrial Building Space Needed 1,053,900 sq.ft. 1,318,500 sq.ft. 1,575,000 sq.ft. Net Industrial Site Acreage Needed 156 195 233 Note: Estimates are based on the following standards : a) 12 employees per gross industrial acre; b) 450 square feet of building space per employee; c) 15 employees per net industrial site acre. TABLE 3.4 INDUSTRIAL LAND AND BUILDING NEEDS WITHIN HIGHLAND TOWNSHIP 1980 1990 2000 Gross Industrial Acreage Needed 53 88 131 Industrial Building Space Needed 284,533 sq. ft. 474,660 sq. ft. 708,750 sq. ft. Net Industrial Site Acreage Needed 42 70 105 Note: Estimates are based on the proportion of total labor force expected to actually work within Highland Township businesses, as follows: 1980, 27 percent (actual); 1990, 36 percent; and 2000, 45 percent. 33 �4. NATURAL FEATURES ANALYSIS �4. NATURAL FEATURES ANALYSIS The physical features of Highland Township are the natural elements which give form to the environment. These elements consist of geologic formations or physiography, topography, water, soils and natural vegetation. The quantity and quality of these elements create the rural character of the township. Physiography and Topography The lay of the land was created during the Ice Age through glacial activity which transported rocks and soils from their place of origin. These soils were redeposited, creating various landforms. Highland Township contains three types of landform: moraines, till plains, and outwash terraces and plains. The map on the following page shows the general location of these land forms. The several types of morainic areas which are located in Highland Township represent approximately 50 percent of the township 1 s 36 square-mile area. Moraines are generally perceived as hills or ridges and are located in the northwest, central and southeast portions of the township. The mean elevation of the township is slightly above 1,000 feet. The morainic areas rise above 1,100 feet with one point, west of Hickory Ridge Road along Clyde Road, reaching 1,190 feet. Moraines create an undulating topography with a discontinuous band of hills and depressions. They consist primarily of fine soils, sand and gravels with some slopes in excess of 30 percent. The water table in these areas is typically more than six feet below the surface. Where the water table occurs at the ground, surface ponds and wetlands can be observed; this occurs primarily in the north central ridge area and the southeast section of the township. Many of the township 1 s large wooded tracts are located in morainic areas. The internal drainage of moraines is variable since a range of materials may be encountered. Fine materials in depressions are naturally poorly drained. Coarser soils in the hilly areas are moderately to well drained. In coarse textured soils on higher ground, percolation rates are generally suitable for septic tank leaching fields, but slopes and seasonal high-water tables act as constraints for their location. The clay fill deposits of the morainic ridge, north of Clyde Road, east of Buckhorn Lake Road, are some of the most productive soils in the township. The moraines offer a wide diversity of spatial and viewing potentials. Regional viewing potential exists on the hilltops and ridges along the edge of the moraine formation; these provide views and vistas over adjacent flat till plains or outwashs. Steeper slopes in morainic areas are sensitive to development or timber cutting and are most visually noticeable immediately adjacent to thoroughfares. A large till plain is located in the western portion of the township where it is traversed by Hickory Ridge Road and Highland Road. This till plain occupies about 15 percent of the township 1 s land area. It is generally characterized by its flat topography and lack of well-defined, integrated 35 �drainage. It consists of a variety of fine textured soils. The water table in this area occurs 1 to 6 feet from the surface; depressions have water tables closer to the surface. The undulating landscape provides very little surface runoff and most of the drainage in this area is underground. Septic tank leaching fields are difficult to site in areas of fine-textured soils since the seasonal high-water table is near the surface and percolation rates are slow. Visually, much of the till plain appears as monotonous flat areas with little spatial variation. The landscape is open due to the lack of vegetative cover. The openness of the landscape will make any substantial development, even low-density single-family development, very visually imposing. Some topographic and visual diversity is found along Tipsico Lake Road and around Dunham Lake. Outwash plains and lake areas are found between the mora1n1c ridge and the southeastern moraines. The outwash plain is characterized by its flat to undulating topography. It consists of a variety of fine sands and silts at the surface with silts, sands and gravels below the surface. The outwash plain area averages 1,020 feet in elevation with slopes ranging from 1/2 to 6 percent. The outwash plain area contains many depressions which are observed as lakes. Extensive areas of high-water table and marshes exist around the lakes. Water tables in outlying areas range from 1 to 6 feet. Septic tank leaching fields can be sited in the outlying areas due to the lower water table and higher percolation rates, however, septic tanks are difficult to site around the depressions and lake areas. The outwash plain with its pitted lake areas provides visual variety in the township. The most interesting views occur close to the major thoroughfares. A very limited amount of improperly sited development can spoil the visual richness these areas give the township. 1' J The most visual variety in Highland Township can be found along the southern edge of the outwash plain, southern moraine and outwash terrace. The eastern edge of the outwash terrace is perched from 10 to 50 feet above the Pettibone Creek water course. The water table is located well below the surface except for the drainage course extending northwest and northeast from Rowe Lake. Soil conditions allow high percolation rates in most of the area west of Milford Road and south of Highland Road. Septic tank leaching fields are easier to site in the terrace area. In general, the central and western portions of the outwash terrace are flat with little visual diversity. Greater topographic and visual variation is observed along the edges of moraines and the Pettibone Creek water course. The greatest potentials for development lie within the outwash terrace area. The outwash plain and terrace area occupies approximately 35 percent of the township. ~ 36 �.,o d>o ,o.,o , 0 < 0 a:: w ~-·"-~·".# "'-'< 0 u ~ -· .:: \- i ~ ~~ 0 -. ~ ~-= < ~UTWASH PLAIN~ WOODRUFF LK ~~ >z:::) I- 0 TILL PLAIN tj ey %1 r u J________ q-=-~ HIGHLAND ROAD J J - .......1/~ /2iiiiiiil.,,~~--~=--------Contour lnterva I·. 50 Feet -, ,....J J [~ ;J__-+t-~w--= ~ :,: i �-,., Water Bodies and Wetlands Water in the form of lakes and ponds comprises approximately 1,454 acres, or 6 percent, of the total land area. Much of the scenic area around the lakes, outside the Highland State Recreation Area, has been developed for residential use. It is estimated that wetlands comprise up to 1,800 acres, or 7.8 percent of the township. Many of these marshy areas are located within the recreation area boundary. Preservation of these water bodies and wetlands is mandatory. While state laws regulate the amount and type of development around wetlands and lakes, the visual preservation of these areas is important in helping retain the character and image of the township. Woodlands Wherever possible, existing forested areas within the township's jurisdiction should be retained. Large tracts of woodlands are located in parts of Sections 5, 6, 7, 10, 16, 17, 20, 21, 28, 29, and 32. Clear cutting of these areas will harm physical systems in the township. The woodlands are important for the protection of slopes, aquifers, and wildlife habitats. They are also essential in providing visual diversity and screening, a major component of Highland Township's rural character. Clear cutting will deplete much of the township's natural beauty. Septic Suitability The Oakland County Planning Department and Oakland County Soil Conservation District have determined the general extent of areas suitable for septic tank and drain field sanitary and storm sewage disposal. Unsuitable areas contain high-water tables, marshlands, poor percolation rates, seasonal flooding, high surface runoff potential, or erosion problems. Development should not occur or should be very carefully restricted in these areas. Marginally suitable areas may be utilized for leaching, however, larger tile fields will be required. These areas may also be unsuitable areas during saturated conditions such as spring and fall rains and snowmelts. Limited, low-intensity development may be possible in some of these areas. 38 7 �~ i w "'~ :,: UJ ~ u: <:?.) 0 <t 0 a: w CLYDE ROAD MURRAYLK ~ (!l 0 ii: >a: 0 "'u :I: "" ~ KELLOGGL 1~ ~ WARDLOW ROAD / ~ >f-z -~ :::J ~ 0 u <:,9 LIVINGSTON ~~ 0 <t 0 a: w "'~ w z 0 a, i= ,_ w c.. - ROAD I I 0 <t 0 a: w ~ 0 I I J I ~ -r 7 - - -7 - a: / I vf$ ~-- ,~--- __ HONEYWELL LAKE ROAD ,......1//~2 ~~o iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii-----1Mile ROWE ROAD M ilford Township Figure 4.2. Water Bodies and Wetlands HIGHLAND TOWNSHIP, MICHIGAN �■ J I T I..... w "'.., <( :c (/) ii: CLYDE ROAD ;~}. ~ ~ ~ .. -· /NSULALK ~ WOODRUFFLK MIDDLE ROAD - - I ',-:;;J >Iz ::::> 0 u .....,, ROWE ROAD - ~ 1/2 1Mile ,, Milford Township HIGHLAND TOWNSHIP, MICHIGAN r """'1111 �C <( 0 a: w ""_, <( 0 u ~ ;::: C <( 0 a: w C, C cc >a: 0 :c"" u I --9 ~ z ~ Cf) c., C <( 0 0:: w z _," <( > ucii 0 - ~ i❖i: fl HIGHLAND ROAD C <( 0 0:: w C, C cc >- c0 a: 0 ....J u" 0.. ;::: :c J 7 .,- 7 ,- J . . . . . . .1/2 0 lMile Milford Township Figure 4.4 Septic Suitability Areas Unsuitable for Septic Use '·<·,'.·,·.;-.\\ Areas Marginally Suitable for Septic Use HIGHLAND TOWNSHIP, MICHIGAN �■ -, Importance of Natural Features In summary, the natural features of Highland Township provide a framework of constraints and potentials. Figures 4.2, 4.3 and 4.4 indicate areas which should be preserved or at least developed in a sensitive manner. Development has already occurred in many of these areas and water quality problems are evident. The thrust of future development in Highland Township will be directed towards the areas where natural hazards, such as flood-prone areas, wetlands, excessive slopes and lake margins, do not exist. Similarly, areas which contain large wooded tracts should be preserved or developed to retain as much of the natural landscape as possible. These development constraints are strictly functional; the form and character of the township can be maintained if the physical elements are regarded as valuable resources necessary for the public good. The visual assets of Highland Township are directly related to the physical features. An effort to preserve what we see now is important. It is possible to preserve Highland Township's rural character while providing realistic development possibilities for future growth. "'7 42 �------------------------ 7 ,.... J J J 7 .,.. I 7 .,,,.. J 5. VISUAL QUALITY ANALYSIS �5. VISUAL QUALITY ANALYSIS The character of the landscape is the overall visual impression created by its unique combination of natural features. The Visual Quality Analysis is an objective evaluation of the visual aspect of the township's natural features. The Visual Quality Analysis is used in this plan along with the preceding analysis of natural features as a basis for determining future land use. The goal of the Visual Quality Analysis is to define the desired visual quality and identify areas of visual importance within the township. This will form the basis for specifying the type and intensity of future development to retain and enhance the desired visual quality . Methodology The following diagram outlines the methodology of the Visual Quality Analysis. TRAFFIC VOLUMES SEEN ZONES ,.... VISUAL SENSITIVITY ...,., VISUAL IMPORTANCE VISUAL VARIETY J J - J J J J J J The first map prepared in this analysis ranked current traffic volumes along the major roads in the township. A second map plotted and ranked which areas of the township are seen and how they are perceived from the thoroughfares. An overlay of these two maps produced a third map: Visual Sensitivity. A fourth map was developed which ranks the relative variety of the land in the township. The combination of the sensitivity and variety maps produced a fifth map: Visual Importance. The two most important maps, Visual Sensitivity and Visual Importance, are reproduced in this report. Traffic Volumes The character of Highland Township is primarily perceived along the township's major thoroughfares. The first step in the visual analysis is compilation of traffic volumes data for major thoroughfares. The number of viewers is important in determining the importance of what is seen. Current traffic volumes were estimated using 1977 Oakland County Road Commission traffic counts. These counts were increased at a 5 percent compounded rate and ranked in three values. Traffic volumes range from 160 43 �~ .,..... l T vehicles per day along Buckhorn Lake Road to over 20,000 vehicles per day along Highland Road. Each major thoroughfare is grouped according to volume and assigned a value. The highest volume roads are assigned the lowest numerical value. VOLUME VEHICLES/DAY VALUE High Medium Low Over 3,340 1,200 - 3,339 160 - 1,199 1 2 ,... I ~ 3 Seen Zones Three types of seen zones are mapped and ranked for the entire township: foreground, middle ground and background. Foreground zones are areas which the viewer is in. The greatest amount of detail, scale and sensory perceptions are discerned in the foreground adjacent to the major thoroughfares. The extent of the foreground zone varies with the terrain, presence of tree stands and structures and is assigned a numerical value of 1. Middle ground areas provide a visual link between foreground and background. Details and scale relationships are less noticeable to the viewer. Middle ground areas are assigned a value of 2. Background zones are usually least noticed. Much of what exists in the background is not perceived; shapes, details and textures are simplified. Background zones are assigned a numerical value of 3. ZONE VALUE Foreground Middle ground Background -, I r 7 1 2 3 Visual Sensitivity A composite map is produced by overlaying viewer volumes with seen zones. The assigned values for both volumes and seen zones are combined to develop a composite sensitivity map. The sensitivity areas are ranked high, moderate, and low. A map depicting Visual Sensitivity is included in the this component of the Comprehensive Plan. COMPOSITE VALUES VOLUMES AND SEEN ZONES RANK 2 - 3 4 - 5 6 High Moderate Low ASSIGNED VALUES 1 2 3 Areas of high sensitivity are seen by a relatively large number of viewers for a long time or at close range. Areas of moderate sensitivity are seen by a large number of viewers for a moderate amount of time or long C [ 44 C �distance, or by a smaller number of viewers for a long time or at close range. Low sensitivity areas are either not normally seen by the average viewer, or they are only seen for a short amount of time or from a long distance. The areas of highest visual sensitivity are foreground and middle ground zones adjacent to high volume thoroughfares. Visual Variety The variety of the township can be quantified and mapped based on the amount of visual interest perceived in the landscape. The physiography and natural features of the area are major determinants in evaluating the quantity and quality of visual interest. Visual variety is separated into three groups: Priority 1, Priority 2 and Priority 3. Areas which exhibit distinctive variety or contain unique or outstanding features are assigned a Priority 1 value. These areas are generally located around the moraine formations, lakes and some wooded areas. Priority 2 areas exhibit variation of line, form and topography, but are generally common to the area and do not contain outstanding features. Priority 3 areas exhibit a minimal amount of variety in the landscape. These areas have low visual interest, or they have been developed haphazardly or improperly and require some form of physical enhancement. Some of these areas are located along Milford Road south of Middle Road, along Hickory Ridge Road and along Clyde Road east of Hickory Ridge Road. VISUAL VARIETY RANK Priority 1 Priority 2 Priority 3 High Moderate Low VALUES 1 2 3 Visual Importance The Visual Importance map is a composite of traffic volumes, seen zones, visual sensitivity and visual variety. The sum of the composite values from the Visual Sensitivity and Variety maps are combined and plotted on the Visual Importance map. The breakdown of importance priority values is depicted in the following table: J J J J J J J COMPOSITE VALUES (VARIETY &SENSITIVITY) VISUAL IMPORTANCE 3 - 4 Priority Priority Priority Priority 5 6 - 7 8 - 9 1 2 3 4 Priority 1 areas have a composite value of 3 or 4 and are the most visually important areas in the township. These areas contain relatively high degrees of visual variety and are highly sensitive due to the number of viewers and the amount of area seen. Priority 1 areas are primarily 45 �located along Highland Road, Hickory Ridge Road south of Wardlow Road, Milford Road south of Highland Road, Harvey Lake Road south of White Lake Road and around White Lake. Many of these high-priority importance areas, with the exceptions of the lake areas, have minimal physical constraints due to natural hazards or features. Some of these areas have been developed for commercial or residential use while other areas are currently in agricultural production. Some of the Priority 1 areas along Harvey Lake Road and Highland Road in the Highland Recreation Area can be preserved as public open space. Future development in Priority 1 areas should be designed to retain as much open space as is economically feasible. New developments along the major thoroughfares should be of high design quality and should be arranged to maintain the rural character of the township. Where noncommercial developments are proposed in Priority 1 areas with extensive site depth, it may be possible to develop the areas not readily seen while preserving the most visually important areas adjacent to the thoroughfares. Areas rated Priority 2 are generally adjacent to Priority 1 areas and range from distinctive variety with moderate sensitivity to minimal visual variety with a high degree of sensitivity. These areas are generally found along the high volume thoroughfares and include the foreground and middle ground areas. Wherever possible, intensive development should not occur in these areas. From a visual standpoint, developmental modification should not alter more than 25 percent of what is seen. The use of vegetative buffers, berms and sensitive site planning can help achieve this end. Areas rated Priority 3 comprise the largest area of the township. These areas range from distinctive variety with a low sensitivity level to minimal variety and moderate sensitivity levels. Many of these areas are currently vacant or are being utilized as agricultural or large-lot residential areas. Visually, future development within areas of the township s jurisdiction could be developed at a greater intensity than Priority 2 areas without jeopardizing the township's rural appearance. Developments which may alter 50 to 60 percent of the seen area, for example, would not be readily perceived in many cases. Many of the Priority 3 areas are not viewed from any of the major thoroughfares. Priority 4 areas are, for the most part, not seen by the average viewer except for areas within the Highland State Recreation Area. Priority 4 areas are generally agricultural, large-lot residential or vacant, and they have a minimal amount of visual variety with low levels of sensitivity. These areas are generally isolated due to topographic screening or forest barriers. Intensive development could occur in these areas without greatly affecting the visual character of the township. • 1 • The fact that they are frequently seen is insufficient justification for developing all Priority 3 and 4 areas. Areas which are suitable for agriculture or which have extensive woodland should be preserved. Development should respect the constraints imposed by poor soil conditions and other natural features. As development does occur in Priority 3 and 4 areas, attendant road construction will alter the visual priority of portions of these areas. New areas of visual importance will be created. The rural character of these new areas should be protected. 1' I r 46 �J J J J J J -, J oiiii.iialll!"~lllii--------~1 Mile High Moderate Low Figure 5.1 Visual Sensitivity HIGHLAND TOWNSHIP, MICHIGAN �..., ] J .....,112 i i i l ~~--o-------~1Mile Figure 5.2 Visual Importance -Priority 1 Priority 2 Priority 3 Priority 4 HIGHLAND TOWNSHIP, MICHIGAN �_.J J J J J Visual Analysis Summary Development guidelines based on purely physical constraints will not necessarily preserve the rural character of Highland Township. Future development should be guided by the need to preserve visual amenities as well as the need to preserve quality agricultural land and protect natural systems. This is the only way that the goal of preserving the township's rural character can be realized. This visual analysis identifies the areas which are most important to the township's rural visual quality. The future land use and policies components of this plan set forth approaches for preserving the rural appearance of visual priority areas. J .,,.- J J J J J 49 �,..... 6. EXISTING LAND-USE DETERMINANTS �6. EXISTING LAND-USE DETERMINANTS The existing land-use pattern in Highland Township consists of an emerging residential community in an area still primarily containing agricultural, nonurban and undeveloped land. Highland Township was organized as a distinct township in 1835; in 1846 the center of the township contained an unincorporated village with a saw mill near what is now Harvey Lake Road and Highland Road. By 1860 a post office, grist mill, blacksmith, wagon shop and several other small industries had been built in the village. With the coming of the railroad in the early 1870 1 s, the village moved one-half mile to the west near what is now Milford Road and Livingston Road. The new location was known as Highland Station. During the past century the population of the township has grown considerably. During World War I approximately 1,000 people lived in Highland. By World War II the population had doubled to 2,000 residents. By 1980, the population has increased eight-fold to nearly 17,000 residents. There are approximately 5,666 households, 134 commercial businesses and nearly 20 industrial concerns in the township. Table 6.1 depicts existing land-use allocations in Highland Township. TABLE 6.1 EXISTING LAND USE IN HIGHLAND TOWNSHIP J LAND-USE CATEGORY ACRES Agriculture 2,314.6 Single-Family Residential 7,281.9 Multiple-Family Residential 457.4 Commercial and Office 209.7 Industrial 171.5 Institutional and Public 4,123.4 Business-Improved Open Space 276.4 Utility and Communication 2.6 Vacant Land 5,677.0 Transportation Rights-of-Way 1,140.7 Surface Water 1,454.2 Other 1. 9 TOTAL 23,111.3 PERCENT 10.0 31.5 2.0 0.9 0.7 17.8 1.2 0.0 24.6 5.0 6.3 0.0 100.1 Source: Oakland County Planning Commission 1981 land use tabulations based on county assessment records. 51 �:r t Residential Determinants Residential growth originally focused in the "village" center and around the fringes of the lakes. Highland Township contains over 24 miles of shoreline. Approximately 17 miles of shoreline have been subdivided with nearly 12 miles of shoreline developed. Much of this lake development came in the form of summer cottages dating back to World War I. Between 1940 and 1950 many of these cottages were winterized and used for yearround residences. Residential growth increased rapidly during the next three decades. As the importance of agriculture diminished, many of the farms in the area were subdivided into large residential parcels along the major thoroughfares. The residential density pattern began to emerge: small-parcel higher-density subdivisions were concentrated in the central Highland area and around the larger lakes in the township. These areas were surrounded by a ring of agricultural land and large-lot residences on the north and west portions of the township. Many large-lot parcels were developed along private roads scattered throughout the township. A substantial amount of residential development also occurred along Milford Road, the first major arterial road in the township. Three mobile home parks are located in the township. The oldest and smallest dates from the 1960 1 s, and it is located on Hickory Ridge Road south of Lone Tree Road. The other two date from the 1970 s. They are located on Milford Road between Middle Road and Wardlow Road and on Highland Road (M-59) west of Milford Road. The township's three mobile home developments occupy less than two percent of the township s land area and contain over 23 percent of its population. While a general pattern of residential density areas has emerged, there is no definite edge or limit to these areas. Higher- and lower-density areas appear to be scattered throughout the township. 1 1 Commercial and Industrial Determinants Commercial and industrial development also emerged as the population increased. Businesses, once centered in the villages, began to dot the landscape along the major arteries of the township. Increased use of the automobile decreased the need for centralized commercial and industrial development. Small commercial and industrial enterprises have been developed primarily in various spots along Milford Road, along Highland Road (M-59) and along Duck Lake Road near the lakes. The character of commercial and industrial facilities in the township is described in detail in Components 2 and 3 of this Comprehensive Plan. 52 .,. �Public and Semi-Public Determinants Public and semi-public uses comprise over one percent of the township. They include schools, township service facilities, churches and cemeteries. Highland Township contains three elementary schools, a junior high school and a high school. These are operated by the Huron Valley School District. The three elementary schools are: 1) Highland Elementary located on Livingston Road west of John Street; 2) Apollo Elementary located on the west side of Milford Road north of Wardlow Road; and 3) Spring Mills Elementary located on the east side of Harvey Lake Road south of Chevron. These elementary schools are currently operating under capacity due to declining enrollments. Highland Junior High School is located on John Street next to the Township Hall. Milford High School is located on the west side of Milford Road south of Lone Tree Road. The junior and senior high school facilities are both operating over capacity, but the re are no plans for new facilities. In addition to these five school facilities, the Huron Valley School District operates the Duck Lake Center in a former elementary school facility located on the west side of Duck Lake Road north of Jackson Boulevard. The Duck Lake Center houses the school district's media center, the district's adult education program, the district's preschool program and other activities sponsored by the school district. J Township service facilities include the township hall, the township library and three fire stations. The township hall is located on the west side of John Street near the central fire station which is located at the northwest corner of Livingston Road and John Streets. The township library is located in a newly restored historic structure which formerly housed the Highland United Methodist Church. This facility is located at the southwest corner of Livingston Road and John Street. Taken together, the town ship hall, the library and the central fire station constitute the township municipal center. This municipal center area also contains the Highland Township post office which is located between the township hall and the central fire station. The township maintains a second fire station on Duck Lake Road at Dean Drive and a third station on Clyde Road at Buckhorn Lake Road. Highland Township contains several churches. structures dating back to the 1830 1 s. Some are located in historic 53 �Open Space and Recreation Determinants Highland Township contains an extensive amount of land used for recreation purposes. Nearly 16 percent of the township (3,696 acres) is occupied by the Highland Recreation Area. This park is a passive recreation area which extends into White Lake Township and provides for such activities as hiking, camping, horseback riding, hunting, trapping and dog-trial sports. Much of the private land within the ultimate park boundaries is too intensively developed to be practical for public acquisition. The Highland Recreation Area is a development barrier between the major population centers in Highland Township and the westward, suburban-like expansion pressures of White Lake Township. However, the recreation area is a relatively contiguous unit and does not create physical barriers in other parts of Highland Township. Local open space and recreation facilities in Highland Township represent little more than one-half of one percent of the township area. These facilities comprise approximately 155 acres. Local open space and recreation facilities include township parks, a golf course and private lands dedicated for common use. The golf course comprises almost 75 percent of the local open space areas. Additional active recreation and open space areas are located adjacent to the township schools. Local park and passive open space areas are located around Duck, White, Harvey and Dunham Lakes. i 54 �Land-Use Issues Based on analyses of existing land-use determinants, a variety of issues can be established which affect decisions for future land-use allocation in Highland Township. These issues are discussed below. 1. A pattern of residential development has been established in Highland Township over the past century. The lake areas and central village area have been developed at relatively high densities while other areas contain lower residential densities and agricultural uses. No strong demarcation between different residential densities has been established. 2. Population growth and development pressure in Highland Township is inevitable. A certain amount of new housing development will occur on vacant land within existing subdivisions. However, available infill areas will not be sufficient to provide for the expected 50 percent increase in population over the next 20 years . Additional land will be required for smaller-lot residential development to provide for a satisfactory range of housing choices. New residential development can be achieved without destroying the rural character of the township provided such new development is within carefully drawn boundaries. 3. Industrial development has occurred in a number of locations scattered throughout the township. Most of the township's larger industries are centralized along Milford Road north of Highland Road. A substantial amount of vacant land exists between and around many of these facilities. Industrial infill is the most logical use for this area and should be encouraged to help maintain a diversified tax base and to provide additional job opportunities in the township. 4. Commercial development is scattered along the major thoroughfares. Vacant parcels often separate existing commercial and office uses, particularly along Milford Road. The potential for commercial and office infilling should be encouraged to establish stronger commercial districts and to prevent commercial development from spreading into areas where it would be undesirable. 5. The large compact commercial development in the East Highland area is an asset for Highland Township. Some commercial and office infill potential exists in this area and should be encouraged. 6. Additional commercial development should also be encouraged in the Central Highland area near Highland Road (M-59) and Milford Road. This area is central to the township and commercial development here will give the township a more balanced land-use pattern. J J J J J 55 �J J J J J J ~ 7. LAND-USE PLAN �7. LAND-USE PLAN This Component of the Comprehensive Plan contains the Land-Use Plan and analyzes its different elements. Five separate parts of this component describe and analyze residential development, commercial and office development, industrial development, open space and recreation facilities, and potential thoroughfares designed to serve the proposed land-use pattern. Table 7.1 indicates the areas allocated to different land uses. TABLE 7.1 HIGHLAND TOWNSHIP LAND USE PLAN Tabular Summary of Land Uses ACRES 16,014 PERCENT 69.3 8,518 36.8 863 5,033 1,042 175 383 3.7 21.8 4.5 0.8 1. 6 COMMERCIAL Office and Low-Intensity Commercial General Commercial 252 110 142 1.1 0.5 0.6 INDUSTRIAL Restricted Industrial General Industrial 362 282 80 1. 5 1.2 0.3 PUBLIC AND SEMI-PUBLIC 249 1.1 4,097 17.7 683 3.0 1,454 23,111 6.3 LAND USE CATEGORY RES! DENTIAL Agriculture and Rural Residential (10 acre minimum lot size) Agriculture and Rural Residential (5 acre minimum lot size) Medium and Small Lot Residential Open Space Single-Family Residential Multiple-Family Residential Mobile Home Residential J OPEN SPACE AND RECREATION TRANSPORTATION SURFACE WATER TOTAL 100.0 Notes: Public and Semi-Public includes schools, churches, cemeteries, and township facilities; Open Space includes the Michigan Department of Natural Resources Highland Recreation area, township recreation facilities, and private land dedicated to common use; Transportation includes existing and proposed major thoroughfares and railroad rights-of-way. 57 �- ROSE TOWNSHIP - Highland Township Land Use Plan Figure 7.1 ' ~!//({(\):::':} Agricultu~e and Rural [ · ·· ··· ···· ... ..J Residential (10 acre minimum lot si ze ) l\ ::_t/\;:.=i')!:(H=''.J Agriculture and ~ural Residential [. ......,,.,:-.,•::.•·::,·_ (5 ac re mInImum lot si ze ) lll\l\l lI:Il[:[l Medium and Small Lot Residential -- l1:'.'i\7'.W :c~'.U E'Ji1/&n~~ Open Space Residential Multiple-Family Residential Q) -"' 111111111111 Mobile Home Park Residential Office and Low-Intensity Commercial General Commercial ,..... WHITE LAK E Restricted Industrial General Industrial ..,,....l: ~~ ... a Public and Semi:..Public \= r.,,,-=~ !\:: Open Space and Recreation == [ ' · , •..._.] State Recreation Area Planned Boundary L00li" r y r""'-..._...,j Proposed Thoroughfares :::::::•:::::::::::::::::::::::: ······ ······· ····· Central Highland Area .,... • • ~ Highland Road M -59 pd 0 1M ile Robert K. Swarthout, Incorporated �Residential Development The predominant land use in the Highland Township Land-Use Plan is residential development. A total of 16,014 acres (69.3 percent of the township) are reserved for residential use. Five types of residential development are recommended: 1) agriculture and rural residential (with areas designated for both 5 acre and 10 acre minimum lot sizes), 2) medium- and small-lot single family, 3) open space single-family, 4) multiple-family, and 5) mobile home park. It is anticipated that by the year 2000 these residential areas could contain the projected population of 25,363 persons which represents and increase of 2,806 households or housing units. The residential development pattern has been designed to protect the rural character of Highland Township and to provide alternative areas for the development of new housing to meet the demands of a growing population. The majority of residential land has been planned for low-density agricultural and rural single-family development in accordance with the character of the existing residential development pattern. Most of the parcels in these areas will range from 5 to 10 acres; many will be larger. Significant areas have been designated for medium- and small-lot single-family and open space single-family development. These areas will primarily accommodate 1.5- to 5-acre and larger residential parcels. These areas will meet the demand for moderate-sized single-family home sites. The 1.5-acre minimum-lot size will ensure, in most cases, adequate land for long-term septic system sewage disposal. A significant amount of land is designated for higher-density multiple-family and mobile home park development to meet the anticipated demand for such housing. Agriculture and Rural Single-Family Development The Land-Use Plan indicates a total of 9,381 acres (40.5 percent of the township) for agriculture and rural single-family development. Within the agriculture and rural single-family category, specific areas are designated for 10 acre minimum lot sizes and 5 acre minimum lot sizes. These lot sizes will provide a range of choice for those who wish to live in a rural density environment. Existing development in these areas consists of large lot single-family residences, small farms and large undeveloped tracts. Approximately 50 percent of the rural single-family area is currently undeveloped. Agriculture and rural single-family areas provide a nonurban 11 ring 11 around the township in conjunction with the Highland Recreation Area in the southeast portion of the township. This low-density "ring 11 consists of approximately 14 square miles. These areas generally follow Clyde Road to the north, Hickory Ridge Road to the west and Lone Tree Road to the south. Approximately 525 acres or 5 percent of the rural single-family area is located within the boundary of the Highland Recreation Area. Several square miles of land located north of Clyde Road and east of Hickory Ridge Road are currently in farm production. It is the intent of this plan to preserve agricultural land wherever possible. The agriculture and rural single-family areas are generally flat and highly visible from the major thoroughfares. The preservation of agriculture and the development of very low-density single-family parcels in these areas will help maintain the rural character of the township. 61 �7 Medium- and Small-Lot Single-Family Development The Land-Use Plan designates a total of 5,033 acres (21.8 percent of the township) for medium- and small-lot single-family development. These acres are primarily intended to be developed within a range of 1.5 to 5 acres per unit. A lot size of 1.5 acres is recommended for adequate septic system development. Medium- and small-lot single-family residential areas are generally concentrated in the central and eastern portions of the township bounded by Clyde Road on the north, Lone Tree Road on the south and the Highland Recreation Area and township boundary on the east. The western edge of the small-lot residential area is along a line east of and parallel to Hickory Ridge Road. These areas comprise nearly 9 square miles in the township; many locations around lakes are almost entirely developed. Approximately 275 acres (5 percent of the medium and small-lot single-family area) is located within the boundary of the Highland Recreation Area. Of the 5,640 acres designated for medium- and small-lot single-family development, approximately 2,295 acres (40 percent) are currently undeveloped. Many of these undeveloped areas are located in and around previously developed residential subdivisions. Medium- and small lot residential areas preserve and round out the basic character of existing residential developments. These areas will accommodate a substantial portion of the 2,806 additional households anticipated by the year 2000. Open Space Single-Family Development A total of 1,042 acres (4.5 percent of the entire township) are designated for open space single-family development. The open space residential areas are strategically located to allow for the preservation of wetlands, woodlands, slopes and other environmentally and visually sensitive areas. Creative site planning in these areas can preserve the sensitive environmental features through the use of common open space. Preservation of natural features will require the siting of homes on parcels less than 1.5 acres in size, but the overall density of the open space residential areas should usually not be less than 1.5 units per net acre. Adequate area for septic fields will still be necessary. r ~ The Land-Use Plan designates 10 areas throughout the township for open space residential development. These sites are located; 1) on both sides of Milford Road north of Reid Road and Watkins Boulevard, 2) on the north side of Lone Tree Road east of Maryland, 3) on Milford Road between one-quarter and one-half mile south of Livingston Road, 4) on Highland Road (M-59) west of Highland Hills, 5) on both sides of Highland Road east of the railroad right-of-way, 6) on both sides of Wardlow Road west of Highland Greens, 7) east of the railroad tracks and north of Underwood Road and Upper Pettibone Lake, 8) on both sides of Harvey Lake Road south of Lakeview Drive and the elementary school, 9) south of Clyde Road at the intersection of Harvey Lake Road, and 10) north of Wardlow Road west of Duck Lake Road. r 62 w.. �·-·-·-·-·-·~ I i pond ] 20 21 [! _·-·-·-·-·-·-·-·-·-·-·-·-•=--------19 ] i::. ...... future residential development ] ] future residential development r CLUSTER SUBDIVISION CONCEPTUAL DESIGN SINGLE-FAMILY SUBDIVISION CONCEPTUAL DESIGN Total Acres: 31.12 Number of Dwelling Units: 48 in 12 4- unit clusters Dwelling Units per Gross Acre: 1.5 Total Acres: 31.13 Number of Lots: 31 Average Lot Size: 32,500 square feet Largest Lot: 45,000 square feet Smallest Lot: 32,500 square feet Dwelling Units per Gross Acre: 1.0 ] Figure 7.2 . ...:i:: "'0 z Conceptual Plans for Variable Lot Size and Single-Family Attached Residential Development �7 population growth in the County. Since 1980 the population of Highland Township has represented a continuously larger proportion of the total population of Oakland County (see Figure 1.3). Even though the population growth of Oakland County is expected to continue to decrease through the year 2000, Highland Township's population is not likely to represent a much greater proportion of the County's total population, since the township's growth is expected to also begin leveling off. Social Patterns Social patterns, such as size of household and number of children per household, affect population growth. Highland Township and other communities in Oakland County have experienced a nationwide phenomenon, the trend toward smaller households. As seen in Table 1.3, the number of persons per household in Highland Township decreased from 3.62 to 3.22 in the period from 1970 to 1980. Oakland County experienced a decrease from 3.29 to 2.84 persons per household in the same period. The decrease in household size is reflected in school enrollment figures for the Huron Valley Schools. The kindergarten enrollment in school year 1975-76 (birth year 1970) was 775 students. Since then the enrollment has decreased steadily to a low of 629 kindergarten students in school year 1980-81 (birth year 1975). l 7 7 Even though the construction of new housing units has shown a healthy increase in the last ten years, the trend toward fewer children and smaller households has resulted in slower population increases. If the trend toward smaller households continues, it will have a leveling effect on population growth. Economic Factors Economic factors, such as the general state of the Michigan economy, commercial and industrial growth, and the cost of fuel, will affect population growth in Highland Township. The depressed state of the automobile industry has a dampening effect on other facets of the economy. With high unemployment levels and commercial and industrial growth at a low ebb, families are less likely to relocate in more outlying communities such as Highland Township. High interest rates make new homes difficult to afford. New residential construction in Michigan in 1980 was over forty percent below the 1979 building rate. In Highland Township, only 81 building permits were issued for residential construction in 1980, compared to an average of 204 permits per year for the 1970-1979 period. If, as some analysts expect, Michigan's automobile industry does not return to earlier high levels of activity, even after the current downturn has run its course, then long-term residential growth throughout Southeast Michigan will be dampened. r High fuel costs also will continue to affect population growth in Highland Township. People who once may have considered Highland Township or another ....... ,..... ...... ...... 3rl ....... �I J J Residential Development Boundaries The 1980 census enumerated the population of Highland Township at 16,958 persons. The population component for the Highland Township Master Plan projects that the population could grow to approximately 25,363 persons during the next 20 years. The residential development boundaries of the future Land-Use Plan are based on three important factors: 1. New residential development should round out existing residential development to logical boundaries. 2. Sufficient acreage for each residential type is necessary to provide reasonable development alternatives while retaining the rural character of the township. 3. Adequate area in all residential developments will be required to contain the potential increase. of 2,806 new households by the year 2000. Table 7.2 sets forth the additional residential holding capacity of the Land-Use Plan. If all residential areas are 100 percent developed, they could contain approximately 4,498 additional residential units. These additional units would provide a surplus of 1,692 units over and above the year 2000 needs. If all residential areas are only two-thirds developed, they could contain approximately 3,015 additional units, a surplus of 209 units over and above the year 2000 needs. The fact that the plan accommodates a surplus of housing units over and above projected year 2000 needs ensures that developers will have a substantial amount of choice in selecting locations for each type of residential development. This range of choice should benefit new residents. All residential areas will probably not develop at an equal rate. However, the pace of demand will probably be sufficiently balanced between the different residential types to permit an adequate locational choice within each type. Phased Residential Zoning Strategy It is not the intent of the Land-Use Plan that residential areas be immediately rezoned to the indicated densities. Rezoning should occur in a phased manner to prevent 11 leap frogging 11 of development. Rezoning from agricultural/Rural Residential densities to Medium- and Small-Lot densities should occur first in central areas which are immediately contiguous with such development. Only later, when the demand for additional medium and small lot development cannot be met by existing supplies, should more outlying areas be so zoned. 65 �TABLE 7.2 ADDITIONAL RESIDENTIAL HOLDING CAPACITY OF LAND USE PLAN Number of Additional Units Which Can Be Accommodated If Presently Undeveloped Areas Are: I' 100 Percent Developed 67 Percent Developed Agricultural/Rural Residential 1 (10 acre minimum lot size) 200 134 Agricultural/Rural Residential 2 (5 acre minimum lot size) 56 38 Medium and Small Lot Single-Family 3 Open Space Single-Family 4 1,250 838 500 335 Multiple-Family 5 Mobile Home 6 1,500 1,005 992 665 4,498 3,015 ..., ,,. [ I TOTAL Additional Units Needed by Year 2000 2,806 2,806 Surplus (Units which could be accommodated minus units needed): 1,692 209 Surplus as Percent of Additional Units Needed 60% 7% Notes: 1 Based on development of 4,000 additional acres at an average density of 1 unit per 20 acres. 2 Based on development of 450 additional acres at an average density of 1 unit per 8 acres. 3 Based on development of 2,500 additional acres at an average density of 1 unit per 2 acres. 4 Based on development of 1,000 additional acres at an average density of 1 unit per 2 acres. 5 Based on development of 150 additional acres at an average density of 10 units per acre. 6 Based on development of existing mobile home parks at an average density of 5.8 units per acre. r I 7 =1 ,,,.. ..... ..... ...... '!1111111 66 ..... �J Commercial and Office Development The commercial and office land-use pattern has five primary objectives: 1) to strengthen the commercial sector and tax base of the township, 2) to provide adequate convenience, comparison, service and office uses within easy access of population concentrations, 3) to prevent the proliferation of scattered strip commercial development, 4) to promote increased traffic safety by reducing points of conflict between through traffic and commercial oriented traffic, and 5) to improve the visual image of existing commercial areas. The Land-Use Plan provides two categories of commercial development for the township: office and low-intensity commercial development and general commercial development. Commercial land comprises 252 acres (1.1 percent of the entire township) Office and low-intensity commercial areas contain 110 acres, and general commercial areas contain 142 acres. Office and low-intensity commercial areas are intended to accommodate businesses of relatively low-use intensity in comparison to general commercial areas. Restricted commercial and office developments are anticipated in areas which contain shallow sites which back up to residential areas. Such uses may include engineering, legal, accounting or other business offices; and low-intensity convenience and comparison uses such as dry goods, flowers and gifts, tobacco shops, beauty shops, cleaners, photo and art studios, bookstores, furniture stores and interior decorators, jewelry stores, optical retail stores, and sporting goods stores. Banks and medical offices which provide services for these businesses would also be appropriate in office and low-intensity commercial areas. Office and low-intensity commercial development is designated in six general locations in the township: 1. The area on both sides of Milford Road, south of Reid Road and Watkins Boulevard contains 33 acres. An existing dental clinic on the east side of Milford Road is the southern limit of this district. This area contains a car dealership and several small commercial establishments. There is a substantial amount of undeveloped land between existing businesses. 2. The area on both sides of Milford Road north of Lone Tree Road plus the southwest corner of Milford and Lone Tree Roads contains approximately 50 acres. A bank facility and several shopping strips are currently located in this area. A sizable portion of this area is available for commercial infill. 3. The plan provides for a small amount of office and restricted commercial development in the Central Highland area of the township along Milford Road and Highland Road {M-59) north of Livingston Road. 4. A sizable vacant area immediately west of the new Brighton State Bank on Highland Road will provide a highly visible site for commercial and/or office development. This site will be quite narrow after the boulevard construction along M-59 is completed. 67 �r . I "' 5. A 10-acre area along the east side of Milford Road on both sides of Wardlow Road is proposed for office and low-intensity commercial development. This area currently contains convenience food stores, a medical office and a pizza restaurant. A small amount of infill area is available in this district and is opposite a potential multiplefamily area. 6. Office and low-intensity commercial development is designated for the southeast portion of the East Highland commercial district. Several residential structures have been converted for office and commercial uses. This area is highly visible and is located adjacent to proposed and existing multiple-family areas. General commercial uses are primarily indicated in three areas along Highland Road (M-59): 1. 2. The West Highland area at the intersection of Hickory Ridge Road and Highland Road (M-59) comprises approximately 20 acres. This area currently contains an auto parts business and junkyard, a party store, a grocery, a gas station, and a power equipment sales company. The plan does not propose the extension of this commercial area. A small amount of land is currently undeveloped. The Central Highland area at the intersection of Milford Road and Highland Road comprises approximately 50 acres of land. Most of this area is currently undeveloped along the north side of M-59. This area is centrally located in the township and will probably experience commercial development pressure after the completion of the M-59 boulevard project. .... r I 7 ,,.- I 7 1 ~ 3. The East Highland area at the intersection of Highland and Duck Lake Roads is the largest developed commercial area in the township, comprising over 52 acres. A small amount of commercial infill potential exists in this area. The areas surrounding the East Highland commercial district are proposed for multiple-family development. The plan does not propose a significant amount of commercial expansion area in East Highland. I The Commercial-Base Analysis indicates that approximately 178 acres of commercial and office area will be needed by the year 2000. The township currently contains approximately 146 acres of these uses. The Land-Use Plan provides for 252 acres of commercial and office area representing a surplus of nearly 30 percent over year 2000 needs. This land allocation will provide sufficient area for additional commercial and office development alternatives to produce a well-balanced, centralized and compact land-use pattern in Highland Township. """"1111111 68 �J WARDLOW ROAD 0 <t: 0 a: 0 a: 0 LL ....J ~ M-59 ~ NORTH Figure 7.3 200 400 FEET Conceptual Plan for Commercial and Industrial Park Development �• Industrial Development The industrial development configuration in the Land-Use Plan has been designed to enhance the existing centralized industrial development and to help diversify and increase the tax base and employment base of Highland Township. The existing industrial corridor is primarily located along Milford Road north of Highland Road. Existing industrial development comprises approximately 145 acres; the Land-Use Plan provides for 362 acres of general and restricted industry representing a 165 percent increase in land area. The Industrial Base Analysis of the Comprehensive Plan indicates a need for approximately 345 acres of industrial land by the year 2000. The industrial development configuration has been delineated to provide convenient access to M-59. The area is generally surrounded by mobile home, multiple-family, institutional and commercial uses. Approximately 80 acres or 22 percent of all industrial land in the township is intended for general industrial use. The area is currently occupied by a concrete products manufacturing plant. The remaining 282 acres are intended to be developed in restricted industrial uses which would be adjacent to mobile home and planned commercial areas. The Land-Use Plan proposed the development of a new collector thoroughfare which would provide the industrial area with direct access to M-59. ,.,,. 7 r --; I Open Space and Recreation Development The Land-Use Plan does not provide for any significant changes in the patterns of open space and recreation in Highland Township. Approximately 16 percent of the entire township is occupied by the Highland Recreation Area. This area is a tremendous open space and recreation asset. The area does not provide any significant development barriers within the township. The ultimate boundaries for the recreation area were established by the Department of Natural Resources in 1977; boundary extensions are not planned in the future. Local recreation facilities are located around the lake areas of the township and comprise approximately 155 acres. Nearly 115 acres of this category is comprised of the golf course on Highland Hills Drive. Approximately five small local parks are located in various area$ and provide beaches and picnic facilities. Open space and recreation facilities adjacent to the public schools in the township are not included in the total recreation acreage, but they represent a significant amount of open space in close proximity to the population centers of the township. Opportunities for additional open space and recreation areas exist within the proposed open space residential areas. Many of these areas contain amenities which are to be preserved; a number of these open space residential areas can be linked to the Highland Recreation Area, to other open space residential areas and to school recreation facilities by means of hiking, bicycle, equestrian, or cross-country ski trails. Open space residential developments also provide the potential for development of both active and passive recreation areas in the township. 70 7 '!Z'1 1 r �8. LAND-USE POLICIES �8. - LAND-USE POLICIES This section sets forth the land-use policies for the Highland Township Comprehensive Plan. The land-use policies deal with residential, commercial, office, industrial, and open space and recreation land uses. The policies have been stated in a form which is specific enough to provide the planning commission with a basis for decision making, but general enough to remain valid for a reasonable period of years. Residential Development Policies 1. A range of housing types and parcel sizes should be provided to accommodate different income and age groups, household sizes, locational and style preferences. - 2. The size and architectural features of residential buildings within each residential area should be visually compatible. 3. Residential developments should provide adequate light, air, privacy and quietude. 4. Higher-density, multiple-family development should be located in and near visually attractive areas. 5. Residential living areas should be separated from commercial and industrial areas by functional elements such as open space or buffered thoroughfares. 6. Existing housing should be protected from environmental decay through code enforcement and provision of adequate township services. 7. Special emphasis should be placed on the preservation of homes with historic or design interest. 8. Vacant land should be subdivided only when a definite need exists. 9. The development of residential areas should occur in an orderly sequence with the proper provision of public improvements. 10. Residential developments should not be penetrated by major arterial streets. 11. Subdivision design should be encouraged to face away from major thoroughfares. 12. Medium- and higher-density residential areas should be located in proximity to major streets for good accessibility and to prevent extraneous traffic from penetrating low-density residential areas. 71 �• ..., .... 13. Open space pathways and linkages within residential developments should be related to the scenic features, open space and recreation facilities pattern of the township. .... 14. Medium- and higher-density residential areas should be located near the Highland Recreation Area or other open space facilities in order to create a satisfactory environmental balance. - 15. The design of new residential developments should provide for the preservation of existing trees, scenic features and environmentally sensitive areas. 16. New residential subdivisions developed in visually important areas along major thoroughfares should provide adequate open space to help maintain the rural character of the township. I r ~ 17. Pedestrian/bicycle ways should be provided to link residential areas with each other and with commercial and recreation areas. r 18. New residential developments should be designed to ensure that on-site sanitary sewage disposal systems can function properly to prevent contamination of soil, wetlands, lakes and ground water. r 1 1 ~ r ....... ........ r -. -. I 72 �J Commercial and Office Development Policies - 1. Shopping facilities should be clustered in order to strengthen existing corrmercial areas. 2. Convenience shopping facilities should be developed which are easily accessible to residential areas. The development of convenience level facilities in strip development along major arterials should be discouraged. 3. The development of commercial and office facilities should be based upon a realistic determination of market potential so that excessive speculation and abandonment of buildings will not occur. 4. Extension of strip developments along thoroughfares in the township should be discouraged. 5. Commercial development should be concentrated in well deliniated commercial districts, small shopping centers or commercial parks. 6. Incompatible noncommercial uses should be eliminated from commercial areas. 7. Commercial areas should include screenwalls or landscape buffers to minimize undesirable impacts on adjoining residential areas. 8. Commercial shopping and office facilities should be designed to include pedestrian circulation, landscaping and other amenities which create an attractive shopper environment. 9. Architectural compatibility and sign controls should be encouraged in commercial development areas. 10. Early signs of blight and decline in commercial and office areas should be reversed through resolution of traffic ingress and egress problems, prevention of excessive penetration of local driveways into major thoroughfares, elimination of excessive advertising and identification signs, and through provision for improved site planning design and landscaping in remaining developable parcels. New commercial facilities should be subject to site plan review, as should existing facilities which are expanded. 11. A local historic business district with appropriate shopping and office facilities should be encouraged in the Central Highland area. 12. Commercial and office development in the form of adaptive reuse of existing residential structures should be encouraged in the Central Highland area. 13. The township should encourage the maintenance of historically significant structures in commercial and office areas. 14. Hazards such as air, water and soil contamination; noise; and excessive vibration should be controlled by adequate zoning and performance regulations. 73 �• .., Industrial Development Policies 1. The township 1 s industrial development potential should be attained through the provision of sufficient industrial land of suitable quality and location. 2. Industrial development should occur in concentrations unified by land design, structural compatibility and performance characteristics. 3. Industrial areas should be reinforced through improved accessibility. 4. Industrial facilities should be provided with adequate off street parking and loading facilities. 5. Industries desiring a high degree of public exposure should be encouraged to locate in the industrial area adjacent to Milford Road. 6. Industrial land uses should not be scattered among other land uses. 7. Industrial areas should be separated from nonindustrial areas by appropriate open space buffers or other screening methods. 8. Industrial hazards such as air, water and soil contamination; noise; and excessive vibration should be controlled by adequate zoning and performance regulations. 9. Incompatible land uses should not intrude into the industrial area. 10. Industrial uses which pose no threat to the adequacy and quality of ground water supplies should be particularly encouraged. "7 'L, "'"', r r ....... r ...... r ........ 74 �- - Open Space and Recreation Policies 1. A balanced system of recreation facilities should be encouraged. Such a system should include major park and athletic facilities, neighborhood recreation facilities and special facilities such as bicycle, hiking, equestrian and cross-country ski trails for use by the residents of the township. 2. Open space areas should be linked wherever possible in order to create functional relationships. 3. Commercial recreation facilities should be related to the planning and development of public and private open space areas where possible. 4. Open space development should preserve, protect and enhance wooded and scenic areas, unique habitats and environmentally sensitive areas. Such areas can be preserved either through public or private ownership and maintenance and through strategic preservation of open space areas in sensitively-developed residential areas. 5. Open space should be utilized to delineate residenti~l areas, to give individuality and to maintain the rural character of the township. 6. Developers should be encouraged to provide open space and recreation facilities as part of their overall residential development design. 75 �9. THOROUGHFARES AND TRANSPORTATION SERVICES �9. THOROUGHFARES AND TRANSPORTATION SERVICES This component consists of three sections. In the first section Highland Township's existing thoroughfare system is described and analyzed. This section deals with the current state of the roadways in the township, their classification and type of use and existing volumes. The second section deals with the proposed thoroughfare system including anticipated use and volumes and proposed improvements. Consideration is given to anticipated traffic volumes that will result from the optimum development provided for in the Land-Use Plan. This section also contains a description of scenic drives and pedestrian-bicycle greenways in the township. The third section analyzes other modes of transportation which are available to the township and prospects for future service. Existing Thoroughfare System The existing thoroughfare pattern of Highland Township has evolved primarily from one basic highway development factor: the mile road grid pattern. The mile road grid pattern which is predominant in the township reflects the statewide policy of developing access routes along the section lines which date back to the early 19th century survey of the Northwest Territory. This policy of providing access routes along section lines has at times produced seemingly arbitrary road alignment patterns with respect to natural features. However, construction of section line roads has also provided reasonably good access to all points within the state. All of the major thoroughfares in Highland Township are east-west or northsouth roads. In general, there are few problems or interruptions in the township's road network due to road alignment or barriers such as the railroad tracks. Existing Thoroughfare Conditions Access throughout the township is relatively good. All of the major roads in Highland Township, with the exception of Highland Road (M-59), are under the jurisdiction of the Oakland County Road Commission. Highland Road is a state highway which bisects the township from east to west. The major problem which faces the township at the present time is road paving. Many of the roads throughout the township are unpaved. The roads which are currently paved include: Highland Road (M-59), Hickory Ridge Road, Milford Road, Wardlow Road (east of Milford), Harvey Lake Road, Duck Lake Road (north of M-59), Tipsico Lake Road (north of M-59), Livingston Road (to just east of the railroad tracks), Jackson Boulevard, Middle Road. Several subdivision streets around Duck, Woodruff, Harvey and Dunham Lakes are also paved. While the paved roads carry a majority of the traffic in the area, the township has established "priority" roads which will be paved when Oakland County Road Commission matching funds are available. These roads include: Duck Lake Road (south of M-59), Highland Hills Drive, Lone Tree Road, Wardlow Road (west of Milford Road) and Tipsico Lake Road (south of M-59). Several subdivision streets will also be considered for paving when 77 �- .==-- - - ---=--------~----------~- ., funds become available. Once these 11 priority 11 roads are paved, the entire central portion of the township will be more easily accessibile by improved roads. Only the outlying agricultural and residential areas along the north, west and south portions of the township will be served by unpaved roads. Existing Road Classification The roads in Highland Township can be classified into five categories: regional arterials, local arterials, principal collectors, secondary collectors and local roads. Highland Township contains only one regional arterial or state trunkline. Highland Road (M-59) traverses the township in an east-west direction and provides high mobility traffic movement. M-59 connects the cities of Howell and Pontiac to Highland Township and intersects I-96 and U.S. 23 in Livingston County, I-75 and M-53 in Oakland County and I-94 in eastern Macomb County. M-59 is a four-lane divided highway. This is the only four-lane roadway in Highland Township. 78 ,.... I ...., �Local arterials, or county primary roads, serve traffic over moderate trip lengths and at lower levels of mobility than do regional arterials. The Oakland County Road Commission has classified Milford Road, Hickory Ridge Road, Harvey Lake Road, North Duck Lake Road, Jackson Boulevard, Clyde Road and Rose Center Road as local arterials. These roads tend to carry relatively high volumes of traffic and function to distribute traffic within a small geographic area such as the west-central portion of Oakland County. Principal collectors, or county secondary roads, function primarily as collector-distributor roads for relatively large areas. East-west roads which act as principal collectors include Middle Road, Wardlow Road, West Livingston Road, Lone Tree Road, Honeywell Lake Road, White Lake Road, and Rowe Road. The north-south roads which act as principal collectors include South Duck Lake Road, Rose Center Road, Highland Hills Drive and Waterbury Road. The township's principal collectors can be expected to serve as local arterials as ubanization results in heavier traffic volumes. Secondary collectors are also county secondary roads which generally carry lower volumes of traffic. These roads function to provide traffic service between local roads and higher volume routes. Traffic served is generated from a relatively small area or specific attraction such as the Highland Recreation Area. Secondary collectors in Highland Township include Tipsico Lake Road, Fish Lake Road, Buckhorn Lake Road, Reid Road, Pettibone Lake Road, Beaumont Road, East Livingston Road, Cooley Lake Road, Teeple Lake Road, Eagle Road and various other collectors within established subdivisions. In Highland Township it is likely that several secondary collectors which are outside established subdivisions will serve as principal collectors or local arterials as future traffic volumes increase. Local Roads are residential streets and private roads in the township which provide direct access to individual parcels. These roads are primarily located in established subdivisions and connect with other collectors or local arterials. Several county roads classified as secondary collectors could be considered local roads due the low volume and local nature of the traffic they carry. 79 �0 < 0 0: w ...,~ 0 (.) ;;;; ;::: ... 505 726 MURRtJ\ ~ r ,-,um• ~ ~© KELLOGGLK 672 650 1 1r I >z:::, I- 8 2 0 I- 0 < 0 !!; c., " z 5 Cf) -..J ;;;; ~ 5o ---= (.) ~ ~ - - __ \ _~ _/ LONE TREE--f-6::-5::-01- ROAD 716 I I I I J f ~I_ ~~ ~ ~ -=f'- 1---ff?-~ - LAKE _J_ROAD - - iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii-: 1Mile . . . . .V~ 2~ o Vehicles Per Day 999 or less Figure 9.1 1981 Traffic Volumes HIGHLAND TOWNSHIP, MICHIGAN 1981 1,000 - 3,000 5,000 10,000 15,000 20,000 -, �Current Traffic Volumes and Capacities The 1981 Traffic Volumes Map presents a graphic illustration of current traffic volumes on Highland Township's major thoroughfares . The indicated 1981 volumes are based on average daily traffic estimates supplied by the Oakland County Road Commission and the Department of State Highways. Most of the basic data were accumulated in 1977 and 1978; estimates for 1981 were derived from the base data and factored up at a rate of 5 percent per year. Highest current average daily traffic volumes occur along Highland Road (M-59) and range between 13,200 and 20,300 vehicles per day. The greatest traffic volumes on Highland Road (M-59) occur between Milford Road and Duck Lake Road. Milford Road also carries a large volume of traffic which ranges from 2,040 vehicles per day north of White Lake Road to 14,867 vehicles between Lone Tree Road and Livingston Road. Along Milford Road the greatest concentration of traffic occurs south of Wardlow Road. Duck Lake Road north of M-59 and Hickory Ridge Road south of M-59 also carry relatively large volumes of traffic ranging from 7,000 to 8,000 vehicles per day. Harvey Lake Road carries approximately 5,300 vehicles per day. In contrast, Beaumont Road is estimated to carry only 60 vehicles per day. The capacity of Highland Township's roads varies according to the level of service they are expected to provide, the distribution of green time at intersections and the types of traffic to be moved. The level of service expected of thoroughfares is the most important factor affecting their capacity. The level of service along Highland Township roads is considered to be a stable flow of traffic with operating speeds and maneuverability restricted but satisfactory. In general, right and left turns each represent 10 percent of total traffic, commercial vehicles represent 5 percent of total traffic, no commercial buses use the roadways and the proportion of green time at any signalized intersection is assumed to be equal in both directions. Under these general circumstances, a one-lane roadway 12 feet wide at a signalized intersection such as Milford Road at Livingston Road will accommodate 463 vehicles per hour. If, as commonly assumed, peak-hour traffic represents 10 percent of total daily traffic, the daily capacity of the 12-foot traffic lane described above would be 4,630 vehicles; the two-way daily capacity would be approximately 9,260 vehicles. These data indicate that two-lane portions of Highland Road (M-59) near Hickory Ridge Road and Milford Road south of Wardlow Road are currently overutilized. The road-widening program being implemented for Highland Road will eliminate this problem; however, Milford Road will continue to experience serious deficiencies. Existing traffic volume estimates indicate that traffic on portions of Milford Road south of Highland Road (M-59) represent one- and one-half times the service level capacity. However, road widening is not possible in the vicinity of Milford and Livingston Roads due to the locations of existing structures and there are no plans for future road expansion at the present time. 81 �0 C 0 .... 0:: w C ""1 0 !:? r fj:: 1,100 ,9- ., .,:: 1,000 M URRA,1\ ~ ~ ~ 'l) II <: ~ ~ ~... 1 ,.c=n• KELLOGG LK t If' ~-"'""' ~ WOODRUFFLK r-- rI >z 1- ::> 0 u ,.w ... <( 0 w 0 ..... z 0 "'I-j:: 0 <r 0 ~ ,.. ~ ,F ~ 0 ~ CV) ::, '° ,3 / ~ ~ "' o ~ +::.~ ~~ -- ~ ..."' -1- ._,__ r.:::; - I;:"~-=- g C ~";;;) ~?. L-----::-:::,-- COOLEY LAKE ROAD Figure 9.2 Vehicles Per Day 999 or less 1,000 - 3,000 5,000 10,000 15,000 20,000 2000 Traffic Volumes HIGHLAND TOWNSHIP, MICHIGAN �Future Traffic Volumes and Needs Projected traffic volumes are needed to determine the anticipated service levels and capacities along Highland Township's thoroughfares by the year 2000. Traffic volume projections are derived from three sources. Future volumes for M-59 have been estimated by the State Department of Highways. The Southeast Michigan Council of Governments Long Range Planning Division has projected traffic volume increases for Hickory Ridge Road and Milford Road utilizing regional-scale computer modeling techniques. The vehicles per day projections utilized in this analysis are based on SEMCOG peak hour projections. The Milford Road projections have been adjusted downward to reflect proposed improvements to Duck Lake Road not considered by the SEMCOG projections. Future traffic projections for the remaining township thoroughfares were prepared by the consultant using 1981 traffic volume estimates as a base. The map on the following page indicates projections for year 2000 traffic volumes on Highland Township's thoroughfares. The State Department of Highways projections for Highland Road (M-59) indicate a 30 to 60 percent increase in traffic volumes over the next 20 years. Traffic volumes along M-59 will continue to be the highest in the township; future projections range from 21,000 to nearly 26,000 vehicles per day, representing a 30 to 60 percent increase over existing volumes. The current road-widening effort along M-59 is being implemented to increase the service levels and capacity of the highway. J As indicated on the map, Milford Road will be carrying volumes of surface street traffic second only to those on M-59. Traffic volume increases are estimated to average between 50 and 125 percent over the next 20 years. The projections indicate a range in traffic volumes of between 4,000 and 19,200 vehicles per day. The largest percentage increases are expected to occur north of Wardlow Road; however, the greatest traffic volumes will continue to occur south of Wardlow Road. These data indicate that serious deficiencies will continue to exist and will become greater along Milford Road south of Wardlow Road unless the service level of the roadway is increased in the future. The SEMCOG data indicate that large volumes of traffic, ranging between 12,000 and 13,000 vehicles per day, will travel along Hickory Ridge Road south of M-59. Overall, traffic volumes along Hickory Ridge Road are expected to increase an estimated 80 percent over the next 20 years due to anticipated development in the area. These estimates indicate a potential deficiency in the future level of service at the intersection of Hickory Ridge Road and M-59. 83 �Traffic volume projections for the remainder of the township's major thoroughfares were developed based on several assumptions. Most of the major thoroughfares will be used for local traffic. The number of households residing in Highland Township is expected to increase 50 percent by the year 2000 based on the Land-Use Plan. This estimated increase in population may generate similar increases in traffic along many of the thoroughfares. Vacant areas in the township will experience a substantial increase in dwelling units or households over current conditions. Traffic generation along various roads will increase at a relatively greater rate than others which serve previously developed areas. Future paving of gravel roads will also encourage increased traffic utilization and will result in greater percentages of volume increases. It is anticipated that future traffic volumes will increase between 50 and 150 percent along the township's thoroughfares. The largest percentage increases are expected along North Duck Lake Road (over 400%), East Wardlow Road (150%), Lone Tree Road (100% to 150%) and Middle Road (100%). Most of the other thoroughfares should experience traffic volume increases of 50 percent. Projected traffic volumes along North Duck Lake Road between Jackson Boulevard and M-59 may range from 11,000 to 12,000 vehicles per day representing an estimated increase of 50 percent. These projected traffic volumes indicate serious deficiencies will occur unless the service level and capacity of the roadway can be increased near M-59. Harvey Lake Road is expected to carry as many as 8,000 vehicles per day by the year 2000, representing a 50 percent increase. This traffic projection suggests that Harvey Lake Road will be the fifth largest traffic carrier in the township (exceeded only by M-59, Milford Road, Hickory Ridge Road, and North Duck Lake Road) and volumes will approach the established capacity limit of 9,260 vehicles per day. All other thoroughfares in the township will be able to adequately serve the traffic volumes projected for the year 2000. Proposed Thoroughfare Development In addition to the existing rectilinear thoroughfare network in Highland Township, the Land-Use Plan provides for the development of a new thoroughfare to be approximately 1 3/4 miles in length and to act essentially as a north-south mile road located halfway between Milford Road and Hickory Ridge Road. The proposed thoroughfare will extend Fry Road to the south and thus will link Middle Road and Highland Road. The configuration of the thoroughfare is shown schematically on the Land-Use Plan. The actual roadway configuration should respect the terrain and scenic views from Middle Road to Highland Road (M-59). It would be desirable for this roadway to be a county thoroughfare; however, sections of the road will probably necessitate private expenditures by develope rs in Highland Township. It is unlikely that the Oakland County Road Commission will be able to fund such a facility in the foreseeable future. The thoroughfare could be constructed in phases which would coincide with the development of future residential areas. 84 f �The Land-Use Plan proposes a new industrial collector thoroughfare which will link Wardlow Road with M-59. This collector thoroughfare will enable industrial traffic to reach M-59 with minimum disturbance to residential areas. Scenic Drives Many of the thoroughfares in the township could be considered scenic drives. Most of these roads are currently unpaved and pass through gently rolling and wooded rural areas. Many of these areas are either undeveloped, contain large-lot residential parcels, or are located in the Highland Recreation Area. If the concepts set forth in the Natural Features and Visual Quality section of this plan are implemented, thoroughfares such as Clyde, Middle, Wardlow, Lone Tree, Rowe, Tipsico Lake, Honeywell Lake, Fish Lake and Buckhorn Lake Roads will retain much of their natural beauty. This can be accomplished even if the roads are surfaced. Thoroughfares located in and around the Highland Recreation Area (including Reid, Pettibone Lake, Beaumont, Cooley Lake, Teeple Lake, Duck Lake and Waterbury Roads) will not feel the pressures of future development and are assured of retaining most of their scenic qualities. Pedestrian-Bicycle Greenways Highland Township should consider the development of pedestrian-bicycle "greenways" or people paths which are physically separated from vehicular thoroughfares. A hard-surfaced off-road system would, ideally, link higher-density residential areas along heavily traveled thoroughfares to the Highland Recreation Area, schools and some commercial centers. Such a system should be considered along Milford Road between Middle Road and Watkins Boulevard, along Highland Road (M-59) between Livingston Road and Duck Lake Road, and along Duck Lake Road between Jackson Boulevard and M-59. In these cases, the system is adjacent to the most heavily traveled thoroughfares, but in many presently undeveloped areas which are proposed for open space and small-lot residential developments these paths could be planned as an integral part of major developments. Other Transportation Services Mass transit service for Highland Township is currently provided by the Southeast Michigan Transportation Authority which operates two types of buses in the area. SEMTA operates Park-and-Ride services in the area which allows commuters to drive to the designated lots for bus service connections to Detroit. There are no Park-and-Ride lots in Highland Township. Parking lots are currently located at Halstead Road and Grand River in Farmington Hills, at Pine Lake Mall on Lone Pine and Orchard Lake Roads, and at Orchard Mall on Maple and Orchard Lake Roads. An additional Park-and-Ride lot is proposed in Novi near I-96; however, no lots are proposed for Highland Township in the future. 85 �__;w 1 ... SEMTA also provides small bus services which are connector routes serving a limited region. This service utilizes one 12- to 18-passenger bus which operates between Milford, Highland and Pontiac. At the present time there are three round-trip routes operating daily; curb-to-curb service is offered primarily for the elderly and handicapped. It is unlikely that additional routes will be developed in the foreseeable future; however, up to 2 additional buses may be added on-line depending upon future demand. Detroit Metropolitan Airport is the closest airport to Highland Township which offers scheduled commercial passenger and freight service by the major carriers. Oakland-Pontiac Airport, located on Highland Road (M-59) in Waterford Township, offers a wide range of private charter flights for passenger and freight service. Scheduled passenger service at Pontiac Airport has not been successful in the past, but may be possible in the future as demand for passenger service grows. Pontiac Airport also provides for a large number of corporate and recreational flights. Pontiac Airport is growing and will probably provide a much wider range of services in the future. Based on the number of business-oriented flights, Pontiac Airport is currently rated second only to Chicago's O'Hare Airport. The Chesapeake and Ohio Railroad passes through Highland Township; however, there are currently no facilities for passenger or freight rail service in the area. The C &0 Railroad does not plan any of these facilities in the future in or around Highland Township. I I 86 r �J ft1qhltn~ foamshtt l1'1rttrt:t 10. COMMUNITY FACILITIES �10. COMMUNITY FACILITIES The Community Facilities component consists of seven parts. The first part analyzes existing and future personnel and space requirements for township offices and departments. In analyzing and projecting personnel and space requirements, consideration has been given to departmental functions, current personnel and space utilization, and interdepartmental and public relationships. Comparison of future space requirements with the existing requirements provides a basis for recommendations on the future need to increase its capacity. The second part consists of an evaluation of township fire protection and public safety needs. Existing fire facilities are analyzed. Projections of future needs are based on development proposals contained in the Land-Use Plan. The population of the township is expected to increase by 50 percent by the year 2000. The existing public safety services by the Oakland County Sheriff's Department are also analyzed. The third part contains an analysis of existing and future school facility needs. The fourth part consists of an evaluation of existing and proposed library services provided by the township. The fifth discusses water, sanitary systems, and solid waste disposal needs. The sixth part evaluates health care facilities serving the township. The last part analyzes open space and recreation facilities. TOWNSHIP OFFICES AND DEPARTMENTS The existing township hall occupies approximately 5,758 square feet on a 1.8 acre site located on the west side of John Street. The building is a one-story concrete block and brick veneer structure which houses the principal departments of the township government. The location of the township hall is nearly perfect with respect to the expected township development pattern. The facility is located in the heart of the population and economic center of the township. Space Analysis and Projection Methodology In preparation of the Community Facilities Component, the firm conducted interviews with township personnel to determine general functions, support facility needs, and future personnel and space requirements for each department. Information obtained from interviews and questionnaires was supplemented by on-site space analysis by the consultant to determine future space requirements for township departments. In projecting the future space requirements, consideration was given to anticipated 1990 and year 2000 personnel needs, and the experience of the consultant in other areas of similar size and growth potential. 87 �0 <t 0 a: w "'..,<t 0 r u iii ll. .:: '='a 0 <t 0 a: w MURRAYLK ~ (!) 0 ii: > a: 0 "'u :i: ~ KELLOGGL 0 <t 0 a: > a: u ::, a, a: >fz w i n ::J 0 1r ~ u - I .-.-., _j I I C <t 0 \ I a: I ~ ~ I I ~ ~ ~~ )? •~. ,L,)!t-- 0--------.;;;j1 ~ 112 - . - ~ ~. . • Schools • Fire Stations .,,,,.,.,.,,, ~~ ~ ~-::i. ." r 0 I;::,-~ ,,.,.,.,.,.,,.,,.,~~~~i.,.,.,.,.,lj\J~,.,,.,.,.,~ EU Mile ♦ Township Hall ■ w . Figure 10.1 Community Facilities and Pipelines HIGHLAND TOWNSHIP, MICHIGAN Library Pipeline Easements r �Uniform Space Allocation Standards Existing and projected office and departmental space requirements are based on uniform standards. The space assignment standards in Table 10.1 indicate typical space allocations pertaining to various types of unit equipment, work stations, private offices, and conference rooms. Space allocations for the various items include the area required for equipment utilization and the need for access to and circulation around the equipment. For example, in departments requiring counter space, file space requirements were reduced by assuming the use of under-counter file cabinets. Work station spaces allocations were based on the types of equipment commonly grouped together for the use of one clerical or technical employee. Private office space allocations were based on the positions of the occupant, functional job requirements, and the nature and frequency of office conferences. Conference room space allocations were based on the number of persons the various rooms were intended to serve. In addition to the standard space allocations assigned to units of equipment, work stations, offices and conference rooms, the departmental space projections were also based on the intradepartmental circulation space needed to make all functional components work together. TABLE 10.1 SPACE ASSIGNMENT STANDARDS ITEM SQUARE FEET REQU,IRED Equipment Desk Table Drafting Table Legal File Letter, Card, or Lateral File Roller File Hori zonta 1 Pl an File Vertical Plan File Shelf Unit Storage Cabinet Work Stations Clerical Clerical with Side Chair Clerical with Reference Unit such as Table or Credenza 44 44 63 11 9 6 38 18 12 15 44 55 64 Private Offices Department Head Other Personnel 150 104 Conference Rooms Six-Place Twelve-Place 156 260 89 �-I TABLE 10. 2 SUPERVISOR'S OFFICE EXISTING AND PROJECTED PERSONNEL AND SPACE REQUIREMENTS EXISTING NO. SQ.FT. PERSONNEL Supervisor Superintendent Assistant Superintendent Personnel Director Purchasing Agent Clerical-Typists SUPPORT FACILITIES Reception Area Files Shelf Storage Storage Cabinet Microfilm ReaderPrinter Conference and Meeting Hall INTRADEPARTMENTAL CIRCULATION SPACE FUNCTIONAL SPACE REQUIREMENT I 2000 1990 NO . Sq--:-rr:- 1 208 NO. sq--:-rr:- 0 1 1 208 52 0 0 1 52 0 1 52 1 52 0 1 1 52 99 1 52 154 1 0 208 55 50 11 24 1,389 2 3 '7' 50 84 48 12 50 168 96 22 22 1,389 1,545 24 .,..,.. I ,,.. ,. r I 66 78 90 1,803 2,094 2,411 Note: Projected personnel requirements are based on interviews with township personnel and on the experience of the consultant in other communities. Future personnel levels will be less than indicated in the Table if township population growth falls short of expectations or if budgetary constraints require a lower level of township services than would be expected from past experience. I ,,,... I ~ r I ~ r 90 �Office of the Township Supervisor The supervisor works with the Board of Trustees, of which he is chairperson, to establish general administrative policies for the township. He serves on a full-time basis with the aid of a clerical-typist. The supervisor is responsible for preparing the township budget, serves as chief personnel manager of the township and is the legal agent of the township. The supervisor's office provides liaison between township government and the people of the township. Personnel and space requirements for the supervisor's office are indicated in Table 10.2. Existing 1990 and 2000 needs are specified. Future personnel projections for the supervisor's office reflect the need to provide township government with additional policy, budgetary and management direction. Growth in the township will probably require the addition of a personnel director and a purchasing agent by 1990 and a superintendent and assistant superintendent by the year 2000. Future space requirements for the supervisor's office and other offices are based on the support facilities utilized as well as the number of personnel. By the time the department is expanded to include a superintendent and other administrative personnel, it should have its own reception area. The supervisor's office should be provided with a large conference room as well as a meeting hall. The conference room and meeting hall will serve working meetings of the Township Board of Trustees and the various township commissions as well as the needs of the staff. Total space requirements for the supervisor's office will increase to approximately 2,094 square feet by 1990 and 2,411 square feet by 2000. These increases are due to projected increases in administrative personnel and support facilities. 91 �TABLE 10. 3 CLERK'S OFFICE r I "'"'J EXISTING AND PROJECTED PERSONNEL AND SPACE REQUIREMENTS PERSONNEL Township Clerk Deputy Cl erk Chief Accountant Assistant Accountant Clerical-Typists SUPPORT FACILITIES Counter/Reception Area Files Shelf Storage Storage Cabinet Vault Storage Microfilm ReaderPrinter INTRADEPARTMENTAL CIRCULATION SPACE FUNCTIONAL SPACE REQUIREMENT NO. EXISTING SQ.FT. 1 1 228 120 0 0 1 1990 NO . SQ--:Tf:"" 1 1 1 228 164 104 1 1 1 228 164 104 1 154 3 64 218 0 55 2 2000 NO . SQ--:Tf:"" 78 108 108 55 115 177 48 24 30 30 60 60 22 44 64 76 88 600 1,055 1,363 Note: Projected personnel requirements are based on interviews with township personnel and on the experience of the consultant in other communities . Future personnel levels will be less than indicated in the Table if township population growth falls short of expectations or if budgetary constraints require a lower level of township services than would be expected from past experience. ry ,,,.,1 1---, .,.. ,,,I I ~ r ' ....... r I II ...... 92 �Office of the Township Clerk The primary work load of the township clerk includes keeping township government records, registration of voters, supervision of elections and various bookkeeping functions. The clerk currently maintains a private office. The deputy clerk and clerical-typist occupy work stations in the open office area in the center of the township hall. The clerk's office provides record keeping services which link it to practically every department and office of township government. The reception and work area of the clerk's office is currently insufficient. The eventual relocation of this department should provide a larger reception area and increase the work space by 70 percent. Future personnel and space requirements for the clerk's office are indicated in Table 10.3. Future personnel requirements for the clerk's office will be directly related to work load increases associated with the projected 50 percent growth in population. It is expected that the township clerk will require the assistance of a chief accountant and one additional clerical-typist by 1990. By 2000, an assistant accountant and one additional clericaltypist will be needed. Future space requirements for the clerk's office are dependent upon support facilities utilized by the office as well as upon the personnel complement needed to carry out responsibilities assigned to the clerk. The clerk's office will utilize a growing amount of file storage and vault storage. By 1990 the clerk's office will require more space, and by 2000 the department will require approximately 1,363 square feet. 93 �TABLE 10.4 TREASURER's OFFICE EXISTING AND PROJECTED PERSONNEL AND SPACE REQUIREMENTS NO. PERSONNEL Treasurer Deputy Treasurer Clerical-Typists SUPPORT FACILITIES Counter/Reception Room Files Shelf Storage Vault/ Safe Storage INTRADEPARTMENTAL CIRCULATION SPACE FUNCTIONAL SPACE REQUIREMENT EXISTING SQ.FT. NO. 1990 SQ~ NO. 1 1 2 150 128 108 1 1 3 .... 2000 SQ~ ,..... 1 1 136 84 0 150 128 163 32 32 48 52 12 72 24 72 39 63 63 125 56 68 80 435 645 805 Note: Projected personnel requirements are based on interviews with township personnel and on the experience of the consultant in other communities. Future personnel levels will be less than indicated in the Table if township population growth falls short of expectations or if budgetary constraints require a lower level of township services than would be expected from past experience. r r 1 1 r- r r ~ ~ r ~ r I ~ 94 rI I �Office of the Township Treasurer The treasurer is responsible for rece1v1ng and disbursing most funds necessary for operating the township. Future personnel and space projects are indicated in Table 10.4. Future personnel projections for the treasurer's office are based on anticipated growth in the work load required to meet the responsibilities of the department. It is projected that the treasurer's office will add two clerical-typists by 1990 and a third clerical-typist by 2000. Space requirements for the treasurer's office are based upon the support facilities utilized by personnel as well as the number of personnel. The treasurer currently maintains a private office; the deputy treasurer and seasonal clerical-typist occupy work stations in the office area. The treasurer's office will continue to require a small amount of counter and reception space to accommodate persons paying tax bills and other fees. During the planning period, file storage and vault space requirements will double. The department will require 645 square feet of functional space by 1990 and 805 square feet by 2000. 95 �- , I --, ,,... ~ TABLE 10. 5 ASSESSING DEPARTMENT EXISTING AND PROJECTED PERSONNEL AND SPACE REQUIREMENTS PERSONNEL Department Head Assistant Department Head Appraisers Assistant Appraisers Clerical-Typists SUPPORT FACILITIES Counter/Reception Area Files Shelf Storage Cabinet Storage ! I I ! I INTRADEPARTMENTAL CIRCULATION SPACE FUNCTIONAL SPACE REQUIREMENT 2000 NO . SQ--:-rr:- EXISTING SQ.FT. NO. 1990 SQ--:-rr:- 1 136 1 150 1 150 0 1 57 2 104 1 3 104 148 1 0 57 1 1 64 64 1 2 119 NO. 0 64 12 251 24 15 24 335 36 30 24 448 60 45 40 62 74 592 869 1,236 Note: Projected personnel requirements are based on interviews with township personnel and on the experience of the consultant in other communities. Future personnel levels will be less than indicated in the Table if township population growth falls short of expectations or if budgetary constraints require a lower level of township services than would be expected from past experience. ,,.. r ,....... J ..... ,- ....... 96 - �Office of the Township Assessor The assessor's office is responsible for the township assessment and tax rolls and property appraisals. Activities carried out in the assessor's office are primarily clerical in nature. The assessor's office is comprised of a department head, property appraiser, and appraiser aid. In order to prepare assessment and tax rolls, the assessing department has extensive contact with all of the other township departments. Future personnel and space requirements for the assessor's office are indicated in Table 10.5. Assessing department personnel and space projections are based on expected growth over the next 20 years. By 1990, the assessing department will require one clerical-typist and one additional appraiser. By 2000, it is expected that an assistant assessor, another appraiser, and an additional clerical-typist will be needed. Space requirements of the assessor's office will be determined by the support facilities utilized by the department as well as by the size of the department. Existing counter and reception space will continue to be needed to serve visitors inquiring about assessments. File storage requirements will be extensive and will grow as the township grows. By 1990, the assessing department will need 869 square feet and by 2000, the department will require approximately 1,236 square feet. 97 �,,.... TABLE 10. 6 BUILDING DEPARTMENT EXISTING AND PROJECTED PERSONNEL AND SPACE REQUIREMENTS NO. PERSONNEL Department Head Assistant Department Head Inspectors Clerical-Typists SUPPORT FACILITIES Counter/Reception Area Files Pl an Fil es Shelf Storage Cabinet Storage I INTRADEPARTMENTAL CIRCULATION SPACE FUNCTIONAL SPACE REQUIREMENT I NO. 1990 SQ.FT. NO. 2000 SQ. FT. 91 1 150 1 150 64 47 0 3 1 127 64 1 4 2 104 171 108 EXISTING SQ.FT. 1 -,, ........ ~ 0 2 1 12 30 64 128 36 12 30 64 172 36 24 30 74 86 98 521 761 1,061 64 95 Note: Projected personnel requirements are based on interviews with township personnel and on the experience of the consultant in other communities. Future personnel levels will be less than indicated in the Table if township population growth falls short of expectations or if budgetary constraints require a lower level of township services than would be expected from past experience. ,.... "7 ~ !I""" ~~ ----~ 9 ,,-- I r r r 98 I �Office of the Township Building Department The building department is charged with evaluating new construction and proposed additions to existing buildings within the township to ensure that codes and ordinances are followed in the design and construction of buildings. Department personnel inspect buildings under construction to ensure that approved plans are properly followed. The department carries out structural, plumbing, and sewer inspections. Building department personnel consist of one department head, two part-time inspectors and one clerical-typist located in two offices. The building department has a close functional relationship with the zoning and planning department, the clerk's office, and the assessor's office. The building department provides up-to-date information needed by the assessor to keep the assessment rolls current. The future personnel and space requirements for the building department are indicated in Table 10.6. Future personnel needs in the building department will be directly related to building activity in the township. Projected population growth indicates substantial building activity throughout the next two decades. The building department is currently staffed by a department head, two part-time inspectors and one clerical-typist. An additional inspector will be needed by 1990, and by 2000, an assistant department head, one inspector, and one more clerical-typist will be required. Future space requirements for the building department are determined by support facilities utilized by the department as well as by the personnel complement needed to carry out department functions. One of the major space requirements will be adequate file storage. A total of 761 square feet will be needed by 1990 and 1,061 square feet will be required by 2000. 99 �TABLE 10. 7 ZONING AND PLANNING DEPARTMENT EXISTING AND PROJECTED PERSONNEL AND SPACE REQUIREMENTS NO. PERSONNEL Zoning Administrator Assistant Zoning Administrator Enforcement Officer Clerical-Typists SUPPORT FACILITIES Counter/Reception Area Fi 1es Pl an Fil es Shelf Storage Cabinet Storage Conference Room INTRADEPARTMENTAL CIRCULATION SPACE FUNCTIONAL SPACE REQUIREMENT 2000 NO . SQ--:-rr:- EXISTING SQ.FT. NO. 1990 SQ--:-rr:- 64 1 150 1 150 1 64 1 64 1 2 55 2 108 99 3 165 1 0 1 1 44 64 48 31 48 18 56 12 12 30 45 48 53 74 12 60 60 72 84 371 652 813 42 Note: Projected personnel requirements are based on interviews with township personnel and on the experience of the consultant in other communities. Future personnel levels will be less than indicated in the Table if township population growth falls short of expectations or if budgetary constraints require a lower level of township services than would be expected from past experience. r ......, r ---, r 100 �Zoning and Planning Department I I ' The zoning and planning department is staffed by the zoning administrator, an enforcement officer, and one clerical-typist. The department has the responsibility for enforcing the requirements of the township zoning ordinance, general township ordinances, and other ordinances, and for executing policies set by the township planning commission and the township board. The department will also be responsible for implementation of the Comprehensive Plan. The zoning and planning department will have frequent contacts with the building department and clerk's office, as well as the public . As the township continues to develop, the department will receive many public inquiries and visitors seeking information about zoning and development issues. The future personnel and space requirements for the zoning and planning department are indicated in Table 10.7. Projected increases in department personnel are based on the need to provide a full range of services as the township's population continues to increase. By 1990, an assistant zoning administrator and one additional clerical-typist will be needed; by 2000, the department will require a second enforcement office and a third clerical-typist. Future space requirements will increase due to the staff additions and the needed support facilities. Existing counter and reception space should be adequate during the planning period. The largest space requirements will be adequate file and cabinet storage facilities. The department should also have access to a conference room which would be utilized by the other departments. By 1990, the department will require 652 square feet; approximately 813 square feet will be needed by 2000. 101 �r . 7 TABLE 10.8 ENGINEERING DEPARTMENT r f PROJECTED PERSONNEL AND SPACE REQUIREMENTS PERSONNEL Chief Engineer Engineer Draftsman Clerical-Typists Field Personnel SUPPORT FACILITIES Counter/Reception Area Fil es Plan Files Shelf Storage Cabinet Storage Field Equipment Print Machine INTRADEPARTMENTAL CIRCULATION SPACE FUNCTIONAL SPACE REQUIREMENT NO. 1990 SQ~ 1 104 0 0 0 0 NO. 2000 SQ~ 1 1 1 1 1 150 104 86 44 44 24 12 48 24 38 14 76 36 15 50 14 46 58 307 749 24 15 30 Note: Projected personnel requirements are based on interviews with township personnel and on the experience of the consultant in other communities. Future personnel levels will be less than indicated in the Table if township population growth falls short of expectations or if budgetary constraints require a lower level of township services than would be expected from past experience. 102 ~ - r �Engineering Department It is expected that the township will staff an engineering department by 1990. This department will be responsible for supervising future public works projects, and it will help in reviewing site plans to ensure that proper attention is given to drainage and environmental issues. I I I I Future personnel and space requirements for the proposed engineering department are indicated in Table 10.8. At an early stage of staffing the department might include a chief engineer who may utilize space within the building department. However, a separate area should be provided for the engineering department in close proximity to the building department, zoning and planning department and the supervisor's office. By 2000 it is expected that the engineering department will require an engineer, a draftsman, a clerical-typist and field personnel. Space requirements for the engineering department will include counter space, file and shelf storage, and cabinet and field storage facilities which will increase as the township continues to grow. The engineering department will also require a black-line machine which will be shared with the zoning and planning department and possibly the building department. By 1990 the functional space requirement for the proposed engineering department will be 307 square feet. The functional space requirement will grow to 749 square feet by the year 2000. Township Maintenance Department The Township Maintenance Department consists of one maintenance worker whose primary duties are related to interior and exterior cleaning and maintenance of the Township Hall and the Township Library. The maintenance worker cleans the interior of these buildings, maintains lawns and plants, removes snow and carries out minor repairs. The Maintenance Department utilizes a work room in the Township Hall. The Maintenance Department is expected to increase to two employees by 1990 and three by the year 2000. The Maintenance Department utilizes a 44 square-foot work room. Space needs are expected to increase to 64 square feet by 1990 and 104 square feet by the year 2000. The personnel and space requirements for the Maintenance Department are set forth in Table 10.9 along with a summary of the needs of all other departments. J ' 103 �Township Hall Existing and Required Functional Space Table 10.9 depicts a listing of existing and projected space requirements for the township hall. Functional space currently available equals 5,054 square feet. This total does not include mechanical or utility rooms or rest rooms. The existing functional space requirement is 4,322 square feet. Functional space requirements will grow to 6,383 square feet by 1990 and 8,438 square feet by 2000. The 6,383 square feet required by 1990 represents a 50 percent increase over the 4,322 square feet indicated for 1982 needs. This increase is 20 percent more than can be accommodated in the existing 5,054 square foot township hall. The 8,438 square feet required by 2000 represents a 96 percent increase over 1982 needs; it also represents a 67 percent increase over the total functional space available. ,..-- TABLE 10. 9 TOWNSHIP GOVERNMENT FUNCTIONAL SPACE REQUIREMENTS EXISTING SQ FT Supervisor's Office 1,803 Clerk's Office 600 Treasurer's Office 435 Assessing Department 592 Building Department 477 Maintenance Department 44 Zoning/Planning Department 371 Engineering Department FUNCTIONAL SPACE REQUIREMENT 4,322 FUNCTIONAL SPACE AVAILABLE 1990 SQ FT 2,094 1,055 645 869 717 64 652 307 2000 SQ FT 2,411 1,363 805 1,236 957 104 813 749 6,383 8,438 5,054 Note: Functional space excludes mechanical/utility rooms and rest rooms. Projected personnel requirements are based on interviews with township personnel and on the experience of the consultant in other communities. Future personnel levels will be less than indicated in the Table if township population growth falls short of expectations or if budgetary constraints require a lower level of township services than would be expected from past experience. --, --, 104 --, ------' �FIRE SERVICES AND PUBLIC SAFETY Fire Services Fire protection in Highland Township is provided by a volunteer fire department. The township contracts with the Highland Township Fire Association to provide manpower for the operation of the fire fighting and emergency rescue equipment. The volunteer fire department is funded through a 1-mill levy which provides approximately $160,000 per year for fire protection. The current fire department consists of 52 members and 14 vehicles which are located in three stations. The main station is located on Livingston Road near John Street. The second station is located on Duck Lake Road at Dean Drive. The third station is located on Clyde Road and Buckhorn Lake Road. A 2.9 acre parcel at Hickory Ridge Road and Wardlow Road has been purchased by the township for a proposed fourth fire station. I I I I I I The Fire Facilities map on the following page depicts the township's existing and proposed fire stations and the travel diamonds served by those stations. The travel diamonds represent the areas served within a 1 1/4 mile and 3 mile distance from the stations as recommended by the American Insurance Association. Most of the township is adequately served by the three existing fire stations. The area within the 3 mile travel distance of the stations represents a majority of the high-value and high-density districts in the township. However, the extreme western portion of the township (including the residential subdivision around Dunham Lake and the mobile home park on Hickory Ridge Road) is not adequately served by fire protection. The township plans to establish a fourth fire station on the southeast corner of Hickory Ridge and Wardlow Roads. With this new facility, adequate fire and emergency service can be assured for nearly all of the populated areas of the township. The only exception would be the subdivision south of Rowe Lake off Honeywell Lake Road. However, this subdivision is only 3 3/4 miles from the proposed station. Over half the calls received by the fire department are of a medical nature. Many of these calls are originated in mobile home parks by elderly residents. It can be expected that a majority of the fire and medical calls in the future will originate from the mobile home parks and proposed multiple-family areas. The areas will be adequately served by the four fire stations in the township. Public Safety Highland Township contracts police protection through the Oakland County Sheriff's Department. The Sheriff's Department provides 24-hour protection utilizing five 40-hour deputies (200 man-hours). The current contract provides for an additional four deputies to be available for road patrols. However, recent county manpower cutbacks will reduce the availability of road patrol units to the township in the near future. The township does not plan to create its own police department; the contract with the Sheriff's Department will be renegotiated on a regular basis. In the past, the Sheriff's substation was located in the township hall where it occupied ' 105 �~, ~ - - - - - -'-s-o"'<"c, ---i '%- C ~~ ~ ;.) ~ =1--,# a, C ~~ ,._r,..~~ ::,,.... C <( 0 ~ w Cl C MURRAYLK ~ ~ KELLOG ,... ~ C <( 0 ~ > ~ ::, a> ~ in ~ (~~ 112 0 1 . . . . . . . . ---~!!11111iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii.1 Mile ..- Figure 10.2 1¼ Mile Travel Distance •• • • • 3 Mile Travel Distance ~ Areas Beyond 3 Mile Travel Distance A Existing Fire Stations & Proposed Fire Station Fire Facilities and Travel Diamonds HIGHLAND TOWNSHIP, MICHIGAN I �approximately 160 square feet. Although the substation was not manned on a regular basis its 160 square feet was nonetheless inadequate. The substation was recently relocated to a state-owned house on M-59 east of Milford Road. This building provides approximately 800 square feet of space and it should be adequate for the foreseeable future. The township hall has approximately 400 square feet of space which could be transformed into a Sheriff's substation if the need exists. It can be assumed that population growth will increase the need for police protection. By the year 2000 Highland Township may experience a 50 percent growth in population, primarily in smaller-lot subdivisions in the central portion of the township. This will result in the need for at least 300 to 400 road patrol man-hours, or an increase of 50 to 100 percent over current patrol levels. However, there still may be no need for additional substation space. SCHOOL FACILITIES Schools which serve Highland Township fall under the jurisdiction of the Huron Valley School District. The district is has fifteen school buildings and it encompasses Highland Township, Milford Township, and portions of White Lake and Commerce Townships. Six of the district's schools are located in Highland Township. Milford High School is located on Milford Road south of Lone Tree Road. Highland Junior High School is situated on John Street north of the township hall. The four elementary schools are Highland Elementary School on Livingston Road, Apollo Elementary School on Milford Road north of Wardlow Road, Spring Mills Elementary School on Harvey Lake Road north of Wardlow Road and Duck Lake Center on Duck Lake Road north of Jackson. Duck Lake Center was closed in 1981 due to decreasing enrollments in the district. A second Huron Valley elementary school (located outside Highland Township) was closed in 1982. The highest enrollment experienced in the district was the 1979-80 enrollment of 10,400 students. This enrollment represented the approximate capacity of the district's fifteen school facilities. During the 1980-81 year, district enrollment totaled 10,028, a loss of 3.6 percent over the previous year. The 1981-82 enrollment totaled 9,654 students, a decline of 3.7 percent over the previous year. Since 1979 student enrollment in the district has declined by 746 students representing a 7 percent loss. r During the 1980-81 year, schools within Highland Township recorded an enrollment of 3,973 students. In the 1981-82 term, enrollment dropped to 3,540 students. Elementary schools in the township experienced a 4 percent decline since 1980. The junior high school experienced a 1 percent decline and the high school experienced a decline of 5 percent. Decreasing enrollment can be attributed to the trend of smaller family size as well as the poor economic climate which has brought residential growth to a standstill. As a result, the school district's facilities are under capacity. The projected enrollment for the 1985-86 term is estimated at 8,784 students which represents a further decline of 9 percent. f f f r 107 �-------------------~--------.......,~ ~ Future school facilities in the township will probably not be needed before 1990. Once growth begins to occur, it will take several more years for the enrollment levels to reach the 1979 level. Schools which are or have yet to closed will be put back into operation before new facilities will be built. Population projections for Highland Township in the year 2000 range from 23,507 to 25,363 persons representing an increase of 6,536 to 8,392 persons. Existing household size is 2.99 indicating an average of 0.99 children per household. In simple terms, the number of additional children could range from 2,164 to 2,799. Assuming an even distribution over the 1to 10-year age span, school enrollment increases could range from 1,563 to 2,007 students by the year 2000. If similar growth statistics are recorded in the other parts of the school district, new facilities may be required between 1995 and 2000. The Huron Valley School District owns a 140-acre site on Harvey Lake Road and Wardlow Road for this purpose. LIBRARY FACILITIES Highland Township is currently served by one library which is located on Livingston Road, one block south of the township -hall. This facility comprises nearly 6,000 square feet and has the highest per capita book lending rate in the county. The library was relocated in the historic Highland United Methodist Church at the corner of John Street and Livingston Road. It is on the Federal and State Register of Historic Sites. It, too, is centrally located in the township and should provide a sufficient amount of library space through the year 2000. The new Highland Township Library comes very close to American Library Association (ALA) standards in its number of volumes, but falls short in its total building area. ALA standards recommend a book collection of 33,916 volumes for a community with Highland Township's 1980 population. The library has 32,000 volumes. ALA standards recommend a building size of 0.7 square feet of library space per capita for communities with populations under 25,000 and 0.6 square feet per capita for communities over 25,000. These standards results in a recommended library size for Highland Township's 1980 population of 11,871 square feet, or 5,871 square feet more than the new library facility. ALA standards result in a recommended book collection of 50,726 volumes and a recommended library size of 15,218 square feet for Highland Township's year 2000 population based on the SEMCOG forecast (see Table 1.5). WATER, SANITARY SEWER, AND SOLID WASTE DISPOSAL FACILITIES Highland Township does not have a community water system or a sewage treatment facility. Existing developments in the township utilize individual wells for water supplies and septic tanks or tile fields for sewage treatment of individual sites. Solid Waste collection is provided by a number of private companies which residents contract for regular pick up. There are no plans for a landfill or sanitation department in Highland Township. Residents will continue to contract for regular trash pick up in the future. 108 r �Most of the developed sites in the township utilize individual wells for water supplies. Community wells are utilized by several developments in the township; in these developments a single well supplies water to a number of individual residences. A community well which can serve 405 units is used in the Highland Hills mobile home park on Highland Road. The Highland Greens mobile home park on Milford Road operates a community well which is capable of serving 907 units. West Highland mobile home park located on Hickory Ridge Road utilizes three wells to service 160 units. Only three single-family subdivisions are currently served by the community wells. The Bretton Oaks subdivision on Milford Road is served by one well and portions of the Heritage Farms and Axford Acres subdivision on Harvey Lake Road are served by another community well. In the future, new residential subdivisions will probably be served by individual wells. Community wells will be most advantageous when developments occur in areas of poor ground water quality or when ground water levels are too deep to be economical for individual systems. There are no sanitary sewer facilities in Highland Township. Most of developed parcels are served by individual septic tanks or tile fields. The township's mobile home parks utilize community tile fields. In some lake areas of the township problems have been discovered as a result of old septic systems developed on small lots and in soils which are not ideally suited for tile fields. These areas are generally located in small-lot residential subdivisions on the north and east shores of Duck Lake, along the west shore of White Lake, along the west shore of Lower Pettibone Lake, along the south shore of Upper Pettibone Lake and along the south shore of Charlick Lake. These residential sites are generally not large enough for the development of new septic systems. Proposals have been developed to create community tile fields near these areas to alleviate the problems. If the state determines that the problems are severe and funds become available, sanitary sewers and community tile fields could be developed in these areas. PIPELINE EASEMENTS Highland Township is traversed by three natural gas pipeline systems. Natural gas is supplied to the township by the Consumers Power Company which maintains a supply line located approximately 1,000 to 3,000 feet west of Milford Road. This gas line extends north from Milford Township to Rose Township and passes through Sections 33, 28, 21, 16, 9 and 4. Michigan Consolidated Gas Company maintains a supply line which provides natural gas to the City of Milford. This easement traverses the township in a southeasterly direction extending from Hartland Township on the west to Milford Township on the south and passes through Sections 19, 30, 29, 33 and 34. r r The Panhandle Eastern Pipeline Company operates a natural gas transfer line which runs in a north-south direction parallel to Milford Road and the Consumers Power gas line. The transfer line is located along the dividing lines of Sections 33 and 34, 28 and 29, 21 and 22, 15 and 16, 9 and 10, and traverses through Section 4 in the northern part of the township. r ( f 109 �---------------~-.------.. HEALTH CARE SERVICES Major health care facilities serving Highland Township include Pontiac General Hospital, St. Joseph Mercy Hospital and Pontiac Osteopathic Hospital. These major facilities are located in the City of Pontiac. Additional health care is provided at the Pontiac Osteopathic Hospital Health Care Center located on Milford Road on the north side of the Village of Milford. The POH Health Care Center provides 24-hour outpatient and emergency service. Specialists available at the POH Health Care Center include general family physicians, pediatricians, podiatrists, dermatologists, allergists, obstetricians and gynecologists. The POH Health Care Center provides radiology services and physical and speech therapy. A certificate of need has recently been approved for a new hospital to be located in nearby Commerce Township. It is probable that no certificate of need will be approved for a health care facility in Highland Township during the twenty year planning period of this Comprehensive Plan. OPEN SPACE AND RECREATION FACILITIES Open space and recreation facilities in Highland Township occupy 3,851 acres of land representing approximately 16.5 percent of the entire township. The Highland Recreation Area, located in the southeast portion of the township, occupies 3,696 acres of land and is being developed and maintained by the Michigan Department of Natural Resources. The remaining recreation land in the township occupies 155 acres and is comprised of the Highland Hills public golf course on Highland Hills Drive (115 acres), a community park located next to the fire station and post office on John Street (1 acre), and five local parks located on outlets in subdivisions developed around various lakes (39 acres). Recreation facilities such as baseball diamonds are also located adjacent to the five public schools in the township and represent a significant amount of open space close to the population centers. Traditionally, recreation plans utilize minimum space standards to establish an ideal recreation area allocation based on the projected future population. For example, typical standards for future community park needs suggest 5 acres for each 1,000 persons, less the land allocated for local and school recreation. The resultant 11 ideal 11 recreation space demands for the the year 2000 are depicted below: 1980 Township Population 110 2000 16,958 persons 25,363 persons Total Park Needs (5 parks/1,000 persons) Local Recreation Total Community Park Needs School Recreation Facilities 85 acres 127 acres - 40 acres 45 acres - 50 acres - 40 acres 87 acres - 50 acres NET COMMUNITY PARK NEEDS - 5 acres 37 acres �Established recreation standards for typical communities indicate that Highland Township has a current park surplus of 5 acres and by the year 2000 would require an additional 37 acres of community parks. However, Highland Township is not a typical community. The amount of land delegated to regional recreation within the community precludes the need for additional community parks which must be maintained by the township. The Highland Recreation Area and Dodge Brothers State Park No. 10 are planned to provide such activities as hiking, camping, picnicing, equestrian sports, hunting, trapping, fishing, boating and swimming. The township's 27 lakes occupy 1,454 acres or 6.3 percent of the entire township and are the major focal point of many residential subdivisions. These lakes provide the township with an important recreational amenity. Outlots within established residential subdivisions are utilized for local beach access and other recreational uses. The Comprehensive Plan recommends that developers provides appropriate open space and recreation sites within each new subdivision; this concept should be implemented in conventional subdivisions as well as the proposed open space subdivisions. These 11 sub-local" recreation areas will be maintained by the residents of the subdivision. Township officials do not anticipate the creation of a parks and recreation department in the foreseeable future. Plans are being considered to transfer control of the township-owned outlots along various lakes to the residents of the subdivision in which they are located. Given the large amount of recreation area which exists in Highland Township and the potentials for additional open space within new developments there is no need for additional township parks in the future. HIGHER EDUCATIONAL FACILITIES Highland Township residents benefit from Oakland County and State of Michigan facilities for higher education. These facilities include Oakland County Community College and Michigan's many fine public colleges and universities. Within the township, Lawrence Institute of Technology, a private technical university, maintains a solar research home at which classes and seminars are conducted and experimental data is gathered. 111 �11. BEAUTIFICATION �11. BEAUTIFICATION The Highland Township Comprehensive Plan provides community decision-makers with guidelines for directing and controlling future development. The township's zoning ordinance is the tool which regulates and enforces the types of development which can occur. However, while proper planning and zoning may take place, the visual quality of the township still may not attain the highest standards . Implementation of the following beautification measures will help ensure a high quality visual environment for the township. Conservation Easement Program The Visual Quality Analysis of this plan depicts areas in the township which are "visually sensitive'' and in which it would be desirable to restrict development to preserve as much of the natural landscape as possible. In order to preserve visually sensitive areas, the township should implement a conservation easement program under the provisions of Michigan's Conservation and Historic Preservation Easement Act, Public Act 197 of 1980. This act allows township acquisition of conservation easements in which development may be restricted to preserve the natural environment. Easements could be acquired through donation or direct purchase. Provision for easement donation could be incorporated in the planned development provisions of the township's zoning ordinance. Assessments to property owners would be reduced since the developability of their land would be restricted. Conservation easements should be established along Highland Road, Milford Road, Harvey Lake Road, Wardlow Road, Middle Road, Lone Tree Road, and Duck Lake Road. A separate study should be completed to identify areas in which to focus conservation easement efforts. 113 �- -,;=,- -,----:-----=-~-----~~~----~· ,. . ...,. Subdivision Design Controls and Open Space Subdivision Design The Comprehensive Plan recommends several "open space" subdivision areas where natural features and visually sensitive areas can be preserved through the use of variable density zoning. The variable density concept is based on the idea that homes may be grouped closer together to preserve woodland or wetland areas on the site. The overall density of such areas would still adhere to established zoning standards. The township should adopt guidelines which define site characteristics which qualify an open space or variable density residential parcel, including natu ral stands of trees, land which serves as a natural habitat for wildlife, unusual topographic features which make development under normal subdivision approaches impractical, poor soil conditions which result in a substantial portion of the site being unbuildable, or unusually narrow or uniquely-shaped parcels which do not lend themselves to conventional subdivision designs. Appropriate design language for variable density open space subdivisions should be incorporated into the township's zoning ordinance and subdivision regulations. ...,.. ..,,. ...,,. ..,.,,. -,, ....,. Common rectilinear plan: 94 lots, 12,000 feet of streets and utilities. Open Space Subdivision Design: 94 lots, 6,000 feet of streets and utilities. 114 Curvilinear plan : 94 lots, 11,600 feet of streets and utilities. Open Space subdivisions will not only preserve sensitive areas but will minimize the amount of roadways and utilities needed to serve the sites. The lot size in the first two examples is 50,000 square feet; in the third example, lot size is reduced to 30,000 square feet with nearly 44 acres left open. Overall site densities are the same. �Historic Preservation Program Highland Township contains a number of historic buildings and sites which should be preserved. Measures should be taken to assure that progress does not dilute the historic qualities of the area. The historic preservation program should contain financing and zoning strategies for the preservation of these sites and the potentials for establishing a historic district should be explored. Where possible, historic preservation should be related to the scenic easements program provided for in the Conservation and Historic Preservation Easement Act, Public Act 197 of 1980. The Michigan Historical Commission conducted a survey of all pre-1935 structures in Highland Township during the fall of 1980. Their survey indicated that 267 structures or sites were built prior to 1935 and may exhibit historic significance. The survey identified 22 sites in the Clyde area, 15 sites in the East Highland area, 107 sites in the Central Highland area, and 22 sites in the Rowe Lake area. A number of historically significant sites were also identified in the Seven Harbors area. The 267 identified structures are located along all of the major thoroughfares and many of the local roads in the township. The largest grouping of sites is located in the Central Highland area, and the potential exists for the establishment of a historic district in this area. This area would include the township library (formerly the Highland United Methodist Church), located on Livingston Road, which was recently placed on both the National and State Registers of Historic Sites. The Stone Rowe house, located at 2530 Rowe Road, is the only other structure in the township which is listed on the National Register. 115 �- ---,,....---=--=---------llllllll!llllll-~-------1r Architectural Control Program Highland Township should develop architectural design guidelines which will guide developers in the renovation of existing buildings and the construction of new buildings. The indigenous rural architectural style of the area can be enhanced if new developments are guided by specific design controls. The architectural design guidelines must address the integrity of construction methods and materials; too much suburban development exhibits fakery in facade designs and materials. The township should develop specific architectural guidelines which control such features as structural scale, textures and construction materials, colors, continuity, style, signage, landscaping of buildings and parking areas, screening, and design of pedestrian areas. While architectural control guidelines are implemented primarily on a voluntary basis, they provide the planning commission with a tool with which to negotiate with developers. The architectural guidelines should include several photos or line drawings of recommended styles and design approaches. _,,,. r-,,- r . .,.,,. ,,.. ....,,. r 116 �12. IMPLEMENTATION OF THE COMPREHENSIVE PLAN Upon adoption of the Comprehensive Plan, the planning commission in cooperation with the township board of trustees, will initiate those actions necessary for converting the Plan into viable community development programs. The principal implementation activities include the adoption of a revised township zoning ordinance incorporating modern regulatory practices; the use of subdivision regulations, the preparations of a capital improvements program, and other approaches indicated in the following paragraphs. Zoning Ordinances Zoning is one of the development controls granted through State enabling legislation which gives the township a method for enhancing, guiding, and assisting public and private development. Zoning regulations are designed to promote the freedom of the property owner, but at the same time can prevent undue land use mix and conflict. A legal zoning ordinance must reflect and be preceded by an acceptable Comprehensive Plan for the township. The new zoning ordinance prepared to implement the Comprehensive Plan has been designed to encourage a high quality of development design while facilitating expeditious processing of zoning decisions. Subdivision Ordinance Regulation of land subdivision by Highland Township is authorized by the Subdivision Control Act. Local Subdivision regulations set forth improvement requirements and procedures for the conversion of vacant land into developed sites. The township board of trustees should have a subdivision control ordinance which sets forth minimum design and improvement requirements for lot identification, streets, utilities, lighting, and landscaping, which will promulgate implementation of the goals and policies set forth in the Comprehensive Plan. Such regulations will aid in achieving a viable balance of capital expenditures among the private developer and taxpaying public. 117 �.. ...,. Capital Improvements Program As a comprehensive plan is directed to the physical growth and development of an area, the capital improvements program is directed to the budgetary long-range accomplishment of the plan. The capital improvements program and the capital improvements budget are closely tied to the budgeting of township funds in conjunction with logical scheduling of required and needed community improvements. They establish a budget cycle which addresses priority issues in advance of their need. In essence, they both are prerequisites to sound planning, management and development, and they are required to enhance the efficiency and economy of government. The capital improvements program usually covers a period of six years and is reviewed and updated annually as long-range community needs and priorities are reviewed. The capital improvements budget covers the first year of the capital improvements program and focuses upon the current operating budget in the expenditure of funds. 11 ...,.. ...,,.. Mapped Improvements Ordinances The Mapped Improvements Act of 1943 enables the township planning commission, in cooperation with the board of trustees, to adopt detailed descriptive maps identifying specific public improvements anticipated on a short-range five to seven year period. Included in the Mapped Improvements Ordinance are streets, parks and other public use facilities which are anticipated. The township board, upon the recommendations of the planning commission, may provide for a building moratorium for the areas specifically identified. Whenever issues arise which may have major impact on a particular area or group of persons, the planning commission should make every effort to fully inform and discuss the issue in open forum. Historic District Preservation The township should consider specific measures for historic preservation. A Historic District Commission should be established to officially designate certain areas within the township as having major historic significance. This commission, under Michigan enabling law, should exercise control over land development, building construction, and aesthetic objectives in order to ensure protection of historic areas. The commission could also be active in encouraging development which is consistent in appearance and character with existing structures or documented historic events and settlements. I. Federal and State Grants-In-Aid The planning commission should take a leading role in garnering federal, state and private grant monies when the funds could further the objectives of the Comprehensive Plan and the township. 118 .......-r: �Public Information Program The Township planning commission should maintain an active informational program utilizing published reports, presentations to the news media, a public speakers service, and newsletters and progress reports. The township's planning commission may also assist in industrial development promotion activities. Planning Advisory Services The township's zoning administrator should provide day-to-day assistance to property owners and residents of the township and to land developers in interpreting the policies of the Comprehensive Plan and in working out detailed solutions to specific land development problems. Improvement of Commercial Areas Improvement of commercial areas in Highland Township requires public and private investment to rehabilitate deteriorated facilities and refurbish businesses that are still in generally good condition. A number of financial incentives can be exercised by the public sector to encourage private investment. A review of the financial incentives that can be used in the township follows. Tax Incentives The Commercial Redevelopment Districts Act, Michigan Public Act 255 of 1978, encourages commercial redevelopment efforts by granting tax benefits to businesses which rehabilitate obsolete commercial facilities or build new commercial facilities in declining commercial areas. Businesses eligible under this act include offices, retail sales operations, warehousing and parts distribution facilities, engineering offices, and research and development facilities. Granting tax benefits under this act is at the discretion of the township in which the facility will be renovated or built. Commercial Facilities Tax Exemption Certificates are granted by townships individually to businesses after the commercial redevelopment district has been established. Exemptions can be granted for up to twelve years according to the following schedule: a. Complete exemption from ad valorem property taxes on the value of improvements to restored obsolete facilities, or b. fifty percent exemption from ad valorem property tax on the value of new or replacement construction. This Commercial Redevelopment District Act can be used most effectively when criteria are set up prior to granting certificates of exemption. 119 �Thus, as an incentive, the exemptions could be granted from one to twelve years depending upon the extent of renovation. For example, renovatio n involving a capital investment that is equal to 70 percent of the market value of the property should receive a longer exemption than renovation involving only 20 percent of the market value. A scale could also be devised so that the length of the exemption could be increased a certain number of years if particular improvements are made. Financing Private Improvements The Economic Development Corporations Act, Michigan Public Act 338 of 1974, provides a means of financing the capital costs of starting up or expanding a business in Michigan through issuance of tax-exempt revenue bonds. Because the bonds are exempt from Federal and state income taxes, the lending institutions or purchases of the bonds are usually able to offer an interest rate that is commonly two or three points below the prime rate. The bonds are repaid from revenues generated by the private development, so the faith and credit of the municipality is not involved. To qualify for revenue bond financing, a business must propose expansion or development of a new facility that can be shown to be in the public interest because it will create employment and add to the tax base. Because the costs of issuing revenue bonds are relatively high, Economic Development Corporation financing is considered a worthwhile financial tool only for larger commercial developments involving a capital investment in excess of $100,000 or $150,000. When several small businesses are involved in an area, it is sometimes possible to issue one revenue bond to finance all of the improvements. In this case, also, it may be necessary to form a legal entity to oversee and take legal responsibility for the project. Each individual project within the overall project must qualify under the stipulations in the act, and a receptive bond purchasing or lending institution must be found to purchase the bond. Small Business Administration (SBA) programs provide easier access to private financing for small businesses that cannot borrow on reasonable terms from conventional lenders. A small retail business, according to the SBA, is one in which the annual receipts do not exceed $1 to $7.5 million, depending upon the particular type of business. SBA loans may be used for business construction and expansion, purchase of machinery, equipment and supplies, and as working capital. The three most commonly used SBA programs are the Section 7(a) regular business loan, the Section 7(a) business loan guarantee, and the Section 502 local development company program. The Section 7(a) regular business loan program provides direct loans in amounts up to $500,000. The funds for this type of loan are not readily available; however, under the Section 7(a) business loan guarantee, SBA insures up to 90 percent of loans up to $500,000 made by local lending institutions to small businesses. This program is used more often than the direct loan program since the availability of funds is greater. ' 120 �The Section 502 program makes long-term financing available to small businesses through development corporations set up by state or local government or by a business association. The loans available through this program can only be used for construction or modernizing buildings, but not as working capital. Financing Public Improvements The Community Development Block Grant Program provides Department of Housing and Urban Development funds for various neighborhood improvements, including commercial revitalization. Block Grant funds can be used for acquisition of deteriorated property; acquisition and construction of public facilities, such as pedestrian malls, parking facilities, utilities, streets and lighting; clearance and demolition of deteriorated buildings; development activities carried out by private nonprofit entities in accordance with the community development plan; administrative costs; and, rehabilitation loan funds. Historically, Block Grant funds have been used for construction of parking facilities, new lighting, street furniture, creation of pedestrian malls, and similar public facilities. However, Block Grants can also be packaged into lower cost loans for businesses that participate in joint improvement programs, such as facade improvements. The funds can also be used to capitalize local development corporations under the Small Business Administration Section 502 program. Thus, Block Grants can be used most effectively in conjunction with other types of financing to provide a comprehensive program of public and private improvements. 121 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Wyckoff Planning and Zoning Collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Planning & Zoning Center (Lansing, Mich.) (Organization) Wyckoff, Mark A. Description An account of the resource Municipal master plans and zoning ordinances from across the state of Michigan, spanning from the 1960s to the early 2020s. The bulk of the collection was compiled by urban planner Mark Wyckoff over the course of his career as the founder and principal planner of the Planning and Zoning Center in Lansing, Michigan. Some additions have been made to the collection by municipalities since it was transferred to Grand Valley State University. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Michigan Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1960/2023 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/870">Planning and Zoning Center Collection (RHC-240)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/NoC-US/1.0/">No Copyright - United States</a> Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Comprehensive plan publications Master plan reports Zoning--Michigan Zoning--Maps Maps Land use--planning Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-240 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Language A language of the resource eng Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Highland-Charter-Twp_Comprehensive-Plan_1983 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Robert K. Swarthout, Incorporated Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1983-01-13 Title A name given to the resource The Highland Charter Township Comprehensive Plan Description An account of the resource The Highland Charter Township Comprehensive Plan was prepared by Robert K. Swarthout, Incorporated and Gerald Luedtke and Associates. The balance of the Comprehensive Plan became effective January 13, 1983. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Gerald Luedtke and Associates (consultant) Subject The topic of the resource Comprehensive plan publications Highland Charter Township (Mich.) Oakland County (Mich.) Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/870">Planning and Zoning Center Collection (RHC-240)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/NoC-US/1.0/">No Copyright - United States</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c258909e1a0454ef125f3f239048da5d.mp4 4d628d22a20a204204f15fe238ba1385 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9f23cf6a5ca64562c163fb9051610781.pdf 05feaa466d92a8c7ab1f75d6b8b6f5a8 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Fredrick Robins (00:22:21) (00:15) Background Information • Fred was born in Chicago, Illinois in 1926, but moved four years later because his mother thought there was too much crime in the area • His father worked for a supply office of an ice cream factory in Wisconsin • They lived on a small farm that Fred spent time working on • Fred had been one year short of finishing high school when he got into a bad auto accident • He did not want to go back to school because he had a scar on his face • Fred tried to join the Army and the Navy, but neither would accept him because he had scar tissue on his eye • He later passed the medical exam for the Merchant Marines and joined in August of 1944 (2:50) Training • Fred traveled to New York City for basic training for 6 weeks • He then was asked to start radio operator training on Hoffman Island in NY Harbor • They classes were very strenuous and it was very hard for him to catch on • Fred studied very hard and graduated in March of 1945 • He had leave for a few days and then took a train to Portland, Oregon • They left on a victory ship to Hawaii to pick up supplies • Fred had been in Luzon on VE Day and in Hawaii on VJ Day (8:30) Osaka, Japan • From Hawaii they loaded the ship with trucks and supplies and headed to Japan • They went ashore in their uniforms and took a train to Tokyo • The train was crowded, but the people were all very nice to the Americans • Fred visited the Air Force base in Tokyo and then flew back to Osaka • They hit a huge typhoon on their way back through the Pacific and it really slowed down their trip (12:40) Ship Life • Fred served as a radio officer working on the ship and got along well with others • He spent most of his time with the chief engineer and the captain • The men on the ship were of all ages, from about 22-50 years old (15:40) Post War • Fred continued working on the ship and delivering supplies • They traveled from New York to France, from Texas to Aruba, to Rio De Janeiro, to Buenos Aires �• • Fred was able to have one month off in Buenos Aires and had a nice vacation there In Europe they delivered supplies to Algeria, Rome, and Marseilles (18:20) After the Service • Fred met a girl in Montreal and they had written to each other during the war • He left the Merchant Marine in 1947 to get married and moved to Milwaukee • He got a job at Western Electric, but his wife became very lonely and home sick so they moved back to Canada • Fred got a job at the central office of Bell Canada and worked there until he retired � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RobinsF Title A name given to the resource Robins, Frederick (Interview outline and video), 2008 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Robins, Frederick Description An account of the resource Frederick Robins was born in Chicago in 1926. He joined the Merchant Marines in August of 1944, and went through basic training for 6 weeks in New York City. He completed radio operator school and graduated in 1945. During his tour of duty, he traveled throughout the Pacific dropping off supplies to and from islands. After the war was over Fred continued to travel around South America and Europe delivering supplies until he was discharged in 1947. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Merchant mariner World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Merchant marine--United States Video recordings Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2008-05-21 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8936776d506282bbadfdaeba1430dc88.pdf cbd22704f6fe405f53bddbdbee0ac3ea PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans’ History Project Claude Robinson World War II, Korean War 33 minutes 3 seconds (00:00:08) Early Life -Born in Detroit Michigan. -Achieved the rank of Major. -A senior in high school when Pearl Harbor was attacked. -Enlisted into the military on October 18th, 1943. (00:01:42) Military Training and WWII -Sent to Jefferson Barracks Missouri for basic training. -Prepared for the aviation cadet program to train for the Air Force. -Educated at the University of Missouri instead of an academy (predated its use). -Continued on to San Antonio Texas for flight training. -At that time it was called the Army Air Corps. -First served in Yuma, Arizona (after a number of special training schools). -Because they had too many potential pilots, they retested and assigned for more specific assignments. -He was sent to Navigational School in Hondo, Texas. -Graduated from Navigational School in June of 1945. -Next, went to Carlsbad, New Mexico for bombadeering school. -After that went Yuma, Arizona for radar school to be a radar specialist. -Assigned to fly B-25 planes. -Went on patrols over the Pacific toward the end of WWII. -Re-assigned to the B-29 plane as an observer and navigator. -Discharged from the Air Force on December 1st 1945. -Re-assigned to South Ridge Air Force base in Detroit to the reserves. -In 1950 he was called into active duty for the Korean War. -Reported to Scott Air Force Base in Illinois. -Initially he was intended to go overseas, however because he was a bridge engineer with Wayne County Road Commission, he was considered necessary to remain in the country and sent back to South Ridge. -Re-assigned to reserves and changed to the Engineering Corps. (00:10:00) -Many of the events his squadron was involved with were deemed classified because it was the squadron that bombed Tokyo. -Did early proto training for what would become landing/taking off from an aircraft carrier. -The Japanese bombing missions were strictly voluntary. -While he was at South Ridge WWII ended. -Pursued his engineering degree after the War. -Two degrees in civil engineering, and a masters in structural engineering. -He was injured in a stateside training accident where another plane misfired upon the plane he �was in. -Many of the men present in his training were injured during the parachute training. -Using heavy nylon parachutes at the time. -Gunnery training: purpose was such that any person on the plane could take over any of the various gun turrets. -During pilot training he trained using the Piper Cub. (00:00:00) -Values his time in the military. -Since he was only 17 and a half when he entered, he believes it helped give him necessary life skills. -After being discharged, returned home after three years away. -Decided to marry his long-time girlfriend. -There was some feeling of being separated from those who hadn’t spent some years in the military. -Further ahead in life and not the same experiences to talk about. -Received a degree from University of Missouri. -Worked on a degree for masters of business administration, but decided not to finish. -Worked for American Seating. -President or CEO of some of their divisions. -Hopes that younger generations don’t have to endure war such as the World Wars. -Grateful for the training and opportunity he received, and to those that died in war. -His father served in WWI. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_RobinsonC1808V Title A name given to the resource Robinson, Claude G (Interview outline), 2015 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015-05-24 Description An account of the resource Claude Robinson was born in Detroit, Michigan. After Pearl Harbor he voluntarily enlisted in the military in 1943 and was sent to Jefferson Barracks Missouri for basic training. In Yuma Arizona he was assigned to fly patrols using the B-25, the squadron involved with bombing Japan. Later he would be re-assigned to fly on the B-29. When the War ended he was discharged from the Air Force on December 1st 1945 and put into the reserves. He was considered to join the Korean War in 1950 however his job as an engineer was considered too crucial to be sent overseas. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Robinson, Claude G. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Schantz, Jacob (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Air ForcesOral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/11ea1869008f3d5bdbe74b6eca98ccb6.pdf 39b52b83ffbbfe3c6e9ac2cdbdccd697 PDF Text Text 1 Grand Valley State University Special Collections Kent County Oral History collections, RHC-23 Miss Doris Robinson Interviewed on November 5, 1971 Edited and indexed by Don Bryant, 2010 – bryant@wellswooster.com Tape # 50 (1:03:49) Biographical Information Doris H. Robinson was born 2 January 1893 in Grand Rapids. She was the daughter of Albert Robinson and Jennie M. Baker. Doris lived in Grand Rapids her entire life. Albert Robinson was born in Salem, Massachusetts 12 March 1848, the son of Jeremiah A. Robinson and Harriet A. Brown. Jennie M. Baker was born about July 1858 in Wilbraham, Hampden County, Massachusetts. Albert and Jennie were married 24 December 1876 in Paw Paw, Michigan. Albert was a dentist and he died in Grand Rapids on 14 May 1898 when Doris was five years old. Jeremiah Robinson was also a dentist and he died in Grand Rapids two years earlier on 3 March 1896. __________ Interviewer: This interview with Doris Robinson was conducted November five, nineteen seventy-one. O.K. Fine. Miss Robinson: Alright, we‟ll begin with Sheldon Avenue where I lived for sixty years. I came there when I was about a year old, and that was almost seventy nine years ago almost, yes, seventy nine years next January, My father had built us a house in the second block down from Monroe, from Fulton Street. Kitty-corner from where the YWCA is now, was next to the corner. He had decided that it would be, he would leave his dental office down on Monroe Avenue and have a dental office in a house in which, which he would build. And, the house was completed in eighteen ninety-four and it was there until nineteen fifty-three when I moved, oh it was there until nineteen fifty-four when it was taken down by Mr. Ellis for a parking lot and a quick wash. Sheldon Avenue was very different in those days from what it is now. It wasn‟t a very busy street and it was quite an aristocratic street and it was a street on which people enjoyed living because they get down, they could get downtown, quickly and yet it was a very beautiful street. People today would never realize that it was as beautiful street as it is, as it was then. It was a street lined with maples and elm and the beautiful homes all along the sides, on both sides. The street was a dirt street lined with cobblestones and there were many hitching posts and horse blocks in front of each of the houses where cement parking walks went down from the sidewalk to the parking lots and that‟s the block. The horse blocks were made so that you could get out of your carriage easily; there were no automobiles in those days. People would be horrified to see �2 these hundreds of automobiles parked along the sides of the street and down the middle of the street. There were beautiful carriages going down the streets drawn by horses. I can‟t, we had a surrey, fringe topped surrey, with a horse and a carriage and a sleigh in the winter, the surreys were more family carriages and not, not so elegant. But down the street came many an elegant carriage with a coachman at the back, driving it or at the top, with the lady down below. In those days ladies wore long train dresses. And my, I can remember my mother‟s dress that she had when I was born, I‟m not, I couldn‟t remember it at that time but she, we kept it for a dressup dress. It had, it wasn‟t, it‟s, with, struts the ground. It was, and it had a bustle at the back. And there were large sleeves and then, there were trimming around it. It was made by a very elegant dressmaker; you didn‟t buy your dresses in those days in stores. They were, they, sometimes the dressmaker came to your house and stayed for two or three days or even a week and had her dinner there, her yes, a dinner at noon with you, and you paid her so much by the hour. But there were some very elegant dressmakers too in the house and my mother wasn‟t particularly fond of clothes but my father wanted her to have very lovely dress, so he, I can‟t, I don‟t remember the woman‟s name, of course, I wouldn‟t remember at that time. But my mother told me about the dress, who made it and I think she married a Winegar [Frank B. Winegar married Aurilla Pearl in 1893; lived at 203 Sheldon] who was quite a prominent man woman here, family here. He owned Winegar‟s store on South Division, right opposite, at the end of Cherry Street. It was a furniture store. And the Winegars lived on Sheldon. She had a carriage, I think after that with a coachman. But this dress that I enjoyed so much through my years - I was born in the year after she, she had it made - and she had to have it made to hide her condition. It was that she had extra piece of cloth, it was made of red, moiré, I think. It‟s in the museum today and it came, the piece of cloth from the shoulder down to the waist went over her. Now she was a very small woman and it came to here, the waist came to a point and was buttoned all the way up to the top. And that was all hidden, and so then she could let it out with strings. Well, when I used to wear it, I was so much larger and grew so much fatter than my mother ever was, that was it was very fashionable to have a small waist and by the time I was a young woman that wasn‟t, of course I wasn‟t so large as I am now but, I never was as small as my mother. So I had to wear it when I was dressed up with the, the piece of material that hid the front of the dress and I‟d let all the strings. I gave that dress to a museum and a lady is wearing it, a figure, in one of the shops in the Gaslight Station. I got quite a kick out of this. Well. Anyway, I think maybe you‟d like to know about different people that lived in the first block. On the corner of Fulton and Sheldon was the Watson home, Major [Amasa B.] Watson, I think he might have been major in the, I don‟t know. Interviewer: I think it was the Civil War. Miss Robinson: Was it the Civil War? Mrs. Watson was quite old then. It was a beautiful home and it looked like a castle with its turrets, sort of, a number of turrets, it faced Fulton Street and could look across at Fulton Street Park. The side, on the side was a porch and when I would go by the house, I would often see Mrs. Watson and her nephew Billy Mead, sitting on the porch, looking down Monroe Avenue because there was a beautiful view looking down the street. And people liked living downtown. They, they enjoyed that. On the front, between the house and where the Metz building is, was a large fence, a wrought iron, black wrought iron, and behind �3 that you could look through and see Mrs. Watson in her garden. There was a beautiful pond on which she raised lilies, beautiful lilies. It was a lovely, garden and she lived there I think even up to the time of the Metz building. When I was a little girl, every year at Decoration Day, the National Guard sent up, or the Watson Post, sent up a military group of people, I don‟t know, it wouldn‟t be a regiment, with a band and the parade it, this, they would play patriotic music before the parade began. And often the parade started on Sheldon. Sometimes up around on Jefferson. And I could, I‟d run down the street and see all the parades, as a matter of fact. Most of them started up there. Later on the Christmas Parade started up there on Sheldon and would go down. But that was after Sheldon was getting to be more of a business street. Mrs. Watson could look out on Fulton Street Park and she could look across the road at the old Godfrey, May Godfrey home, which was on the corner of Park and Fulton; a lovely old-fashioned home which should never have been destroyed. That‟s where, they have parking lot now. It… Interviewer: What was Park Street? Which street is that? Miss Robinson: Park Street is the street that goes… well there were two Park Streets, Park Street going down, past Park Congregational Church. Interviewer: Oh. Miss Robinson: And, next to the Congregational church was a second Godfrey home. I think it was Mrs. Godfrey, Miss May Godfrey‟s brother that had that. And there was a Georgia Godfrey and I don‟t know whether that, she was quite a lot older than I and whether there were some other Godfreys or not. They moved to California. They were quite wealthy people. May Godfrey was a very wealthy woman. And so was the Godfrey family. And there was another Godfrey family that lived up on Fountain Street, right southwest of Lafayette, about two, two or three houses down. I think it was the house that the Booth people later on, Esther Booth lived in later on. Yes I‟m quite sure that was the Godfrey built by the Godfrey family, related to these Godfreys. They owned, I think a block down on Monroe Avenue. Interviewer: Well the Booth family house was come to be known as, the Booth house was built by the Shelbys. Miss Robinson: Oh, it was? Interviewer: Yes. Miss Robinson: Well, then it was the house next to it because I remember definitely there was a Godfrey house. But could it, it had been later, before that? I use to go to Fountain Street School. I went up the hill every day past all those houses. Interviewer: It was, it could have been perhaps the house…. Miss Robinson: I think it was the Booth house back then but it had gone long perhaps quite a time before that. And the Shelbys lived on at, the Shelbys that in my day lived on the other side of Agnes Caulfield or Mrs. McKnight‟s home. �4 Interviewer: Yes. Miss Robinson: They lived in a brick house on? Interviewer: They built this? Miss Robinson: On Lafayette. Interviewer: Yes, they built the three homes, they built two facing Lafayette Miss Robinson: They did? Oh. Interviewer: And they built the Booth house. Those three are all Shelby houses. Miss Robinson: Oh, I see, Yes. Well, Mrs, another little interesting thing about Mrs. Watson was that she, after her husband died, she went into deep mourning. And that was quite customary of widows in those days. And she wore a veil, a black veil, over her face for quite a while. This custom was, well, then she was, well, she stayed in mourning for a long time and they, she had a cemetery up here, Oak Hill Cemetery; a beautiful mausoleum where her husband was buried. And she would go up there occasionally and have, and look at, he‟s, she‟d have the drawer where he was placed, opened, and she could look in at him. And that, my father thought was very, what was the word? Interviewer: Morbid? Miss Robinson: Morbid. My father felt that mourning was terrible but they, you would see widows going down the street in their lovely carriages drawn by horses with docked tails and mourning ribbons tied on their ears or around their necks. They stayed in Side one second section: Miss Robinson: …. mourning for a year. My mother, my father begged my mother never to do so, so she didn‟t. He would, he wouldn‟t even drive through a cemetery. Well, Mrs. Watson was the aunt of the mother of well, she was the aunt of Mrs. Tom Carroll [Julia Agnes Mead]. I don‟t know whether Mr. Tom Carroll was an adopted, she was a Mead. And Katherine Carroll inherited the Watson home. And that was called the Wa, when they built, a building, they built the building on there which was called the Watson building. And there were offices in it and little stores along the side later on. And now it‟s, of course, Jacobson‟s. Then, next door there were just two houses in that block. Next door to Mrs. Watson, on the other side of the alley that ran from Sheldon to LaGrave was Mrs. Putnam‟s [Caroline nee Williams; Mrs. Lemuel D. Putnam] home, that was built up quite high, it was a hill, a slight hill there and it had beautiful lawn all the way around it. Mrs. Watson is, when I was a little, young girl, was very old, at least she seemed so to me, and she was very wealthy. And, I don‟t know what her husband did. She had once been the president of the Ladies Literary Club and at one time I think she was a teacher at a time when St. Mark‟s had a school for young women. One of… �5 Interviewer: Was this Mrs. Watson or Mrs. Putnam? Miss Robinson: Mrs. Putnam, excuse me. Interviewer: OK. Miss Robinson: Mrs. Putnam. She was once the president of the Ladies Literary and had been a teacher in the early days. I think in the Saint Mark‟s School for Young Ladies. One of the first schools here in Grand Rapids. And, so she was quite old, she had a daughter called Carolyn and then she, no maybe her name was Carolyn, her daughter was Isabelle [Isabel W. Putnam died 14 July 1901], because the Isabelle home was given in her, the member memory of her daughter. And, it was a home for old ladies. At first, in the first place it was out on, well, they called it Central Avenue, and they later changed it to, calling it Sheldon. But when, Sheldon ended at First Avenue, First Avenue, is it Buckley now? Interviewer: I‟m, I don‟t know. Miss Robinson: I think it is, they‟ve changed all those avenues from First, Second, Third and Fourth and Fifth. Interviewer: OK. Miss Robinson: And gave them the, because on the West side there are also First, First Streets and so forth and so they, it was often confusing. Well, Mrs.Ca, Mrs. Putnam, was known as the American Princess. Because she took, she went to Algiers every winter and that was quite a thing to do in that day. Not too many people went to Europe, as they do today. It was very wonderful to be able to have enough money to take a European trip. Well, she would take not only herself, but she took a nurse and a doctor, and a doctor and his wife and a companion sometimes and they were known as the American Princess, who took this great number of people. Well, I, then we come to my block, the block I live in. I don‟t remember this but my father bought, I think my father bought the lot, it was the second lot from Weston and in those days that was called Island Street, because that street went down to the Island, that had been in the, years ago destroyed but it went down near the jail. They, I, I guess the market place was on the, you know the market place. Interviewer: Yes. Miss Robinson: I think that was, where the island was. Of course that was filled up. Well that was called Island Street, and I think it should be Island today. It was named after somebody, I don‟t know who Mr. Weston was, but he sometime or other, the commissioners decided to change it from Island Street to Weston. Well, I think that‟s too bad because that‟s really a historical name. And, my father bought the second lot from the corner and on one of the leases it says it was from Mrs. Putnam, so she must have owned that land in there. They built in eighteen ninety-three and we moved in there in eighteen ninety-four. His first office had been on Monroe Avenue where the, above Herkner‟s. �6 Interviewer: Your, your, I don‟t think we‟ve established your father just for the sake of this tape. Your father was a dentist? Miss Robinson: Yes, well, yes, I was going to. He had, he came with my mother from, they were Massachusetts people originally. Their ancestors were all New England people. And they had come out to Paw Paw; my father went there to practice dentistry. My Grandfather Robinson, he wasn‟t, he came and died here in Grand Rapids at our home but I wasn‟t going to bring him in because he, his home was Jackson. His home was Ca, he was born in Concord and my father had been born in Salem and they‟d come out to, early days to Jackson. They went first to Ohio and then up to Jackson and he in those days, dentists did not go to college. There were no college, no dental college, that‟s what I was going to say. There were no dental colleges. The university, I don‟t know the year that university established a dental college, but my grandfather was one of the earliest dentists in the United States, but he began at a time when it was called a trade. And he was known; he was offered the deanship of the University of Michigan, the first deanship of the dental school at the University of Michigan. But he wasn‟t able to accept it because it didn‟t pay enough for him to support his family on. And so, Dean Taft became the first Dean. Well what it in was. The reason I brought this up was that dentists, dentists as lawyers, learned their trade in another dentist‟s office and that is how my father learned his trade. He learned it from, it became a profession, but he learned it from his father. And my, his father taught dentistry to many another dentists and our family was a dental family, because the uncles and my pr and cousins become dentists. And, my brother later became a dentist. But he, by the time that he was ready to become a dentist, the school had been established, of course Grandfather had, it was in his day that the school was established. And he went to the university and he came back. Well, then father built this for his office and it was a very nice home, fourteen room home. The Barth, I think there was a family by the name of Barth that lived next door on the north, on the corner. We were the second house. The house where the Imperial is today had been the Amberg home. And, they moved away about the time that we came in. You see, Sheldon apparently was changing somewhat in its nature. It was a degenerating, deteriorating somewhat. Not, not too much but a little bit because it was near downtown. And the Ambergs went out to Cherry Street to live. That was Julius Amberg‟s and Hazel Amberg‟s family. The Hazel A. is named after her, are on, the boat on the lake, and of course on one of the boats on the lake was named after Major Watson. The, that was a red brick house and surrounded with an iron wrought… Interviewer: Fence. Miss Robinson: …fence in front of it. Then the next home was, belonged to a man by the name of General [Byron] Pierce. They moved away when I was a small girl and I don‟t remember too much about them. And the next house belonged to Charlie Leonard. And I think this is a rather attractive story. They were there when we first moved there and mother said that Mrs. Charlie Leonard told her that she couldn‟t sleep nights because of [Mr. and Mrs. Clarence] Peck‟s baby, that‟s Clara, and Johnson‟s cow who lived on, kitty-corner. The Doctor Johnson lived kittycorner from the Leonards and they kept her awake, the cow kept her awake at night and the cow evidently was pastured between the Johnson home on Sheldon and Division Avenue, in a vacant lot. Now I talked with Agnes about that, and Agnes said she didn‟t remember anything about the Johnsons having a cow but I know my mother told me that. But Agnes remembered that, the �7 [George H.] Longs in the third block up, had a cow and that, just was disturbing some, disturbing sometimes and they brought it in on, into their yard and milked it at night. And, so you can see what Sheldon Avenue, how different it is today. The corner, where the Leonards lived, they didn‟t stay there too long. Across the road was the old All Souls Universalists Church, where I went to Sunday School. And there were a good many prominent people going to that church. My mother was an Episcopalian but my family, my father‟s family who had come from Concord and had, they had gone to the old meeting house, that first old meeting house during, which had been built there in Concord, the very first one and where the Concord, well Massachusetts had a provincial congress that met there at that meeting house and they voted to separate from England, in that old meeting house, and my grandfather had been born there, right next door to the meeting house. Well, let‟s see, what was I going to tell you? Oh, All Soul‟s Church had in it Judge [Willis] Perkins and his wife, the [Eilert] Clements family, Earle Clements and Roy Clements went there. The [Albert] Hicks [family], there was Russell Hicks and Kenneth Hicks going there. Mary Louise Powers and her mother the per, Powers. She‟s a teacher here. They went there. She had my, one of the Sunday School classes. The [William] Collins no, the [Ralph P.] Tietsort family. Yes and I guess Helen Collins. Helen Tietsort and Helen Collins went there to Sunday School, and the Hilton girls they were friends of my aunts went there and Judge Perkins was the head of the Sunday School and wait a moment, Marion Sprague, no what was her uncle‟s, her father‟s name? They lived up here on Madison. He was prominent, I think it was Sprague. Yes. It was Sprague and very prominent people living up here on Madison Avenue. They came down to the All Souls Church and one of the early ministers there was a Mr. [Charles] Fluhrer, and he was very prominent, and mother who was an Episcopalian would go with Father there and of course they sat, and Aunt Molly [Mary B. Robinson] lived with us. Grandpa and Aunt Molly came to live with us from Jackson, Michigan. Grandpa, Grandma had died when I was, the year I was born at eighty-five and Grandpa came to live when he was eighty-five, and Aunt Molly came and lived with me until I was thirty years old, and I was only a year old. Aunt Molly was a singer. Well, she went there, she, her name was Robinson, her name was Mary Robinson and she hadn‟t married. And then, let‟s see who else went there? Of course there was Mary Perkins and Margaret Perkins and June Perkins; they were all children of Judge [Willis B.] Perkins. They were down there, and Willis Perkins, they were all down there at that Sunday School. And it was a nice Sunday School and I remember the chicken-pie suppers we used to have there and on Christmas night every year Santy Clause always came and I was so excited because everybody, we all got a box of candy, Christmas candy in a box that looked like a chimney and a Santy Claus gave us all a gift. Then I‟d go home to my home and mother would tell me I could have some bread and milk and go to bed because Santy Claus had to come and to, bring down the chimney and then while I was eating the taking my bread and milk, my brother who was fifteen years older than I, would go around and knock on the window and I thought it was Santy Claus that was knocking on the window, and I would jump up, I‟d knock my milk over and I‟d go to bed. And then when we‟d come down in the morning the grate is the fire, that we had a fireplace. We had a quite modern house for those days because a lot of my friends tell me that they still had oil lamps. We had gas and electricity. Electricity was somewhat new and we had a furnace, a hot air, hot water furnace in the house. It was a fourteen room house and the pressure from the city was not too strong so it just brought the water into the city water into the house on the lower floor. And so we had a hydraulic pump in our kitchen. And we had a cistern and there were two faucets on the hydraulic, pump and one, pump would, one faucet would bring up, the water to a tank, we had a tank room on the second floor, and the water would be carried �8 up from that pump to that tank. And then we had our water in the bathroom you see. From the tank that was on the second floor, in the, just back of the bathroom. And we all, we drew up the city water, from other faucet. And later the, the cistern we just had to, it grew so commercial down there, so much smoke that we couldn‟t use the cisterns anymore and we had to disconnect that. Anyway we disconnected, then we had a new pipe brought in and we had water sent up from the city without the hydraulic pump. And at the, in that house, it was modern enough so that we had a switch on the first floor that we could light the electric light in the hall upstairs. And I think that was, for eighteen ninety-three was quite, quite modern. And we also had, we had hot water in the winter. We had, in our bathroom upstairs, and later we had, one of those old, instantaneous heaters over the bathtub to bring hot water. But of course the first years in the summer, we always had to heat our water in the tea-kettle. In the kitchen we had gas, we had a range, a wood or coal range, and on one end of it there was a boiler for hot water that we used for our dishes. We did, and we had to heat our water in the, later we put in a gas, a gas stove. I can remember having leg aches; they called it growing pains in those days. I don‟t know what, what it was, I out grew it anyway I used to go and sit with my leg on the edge of that, oven. Then, up the next block there were, there were the, beyond the church was the Doctor [F. Josephus] Groner home and then the Foster Stevens. Mr. Stevens, Mr. Sidney Stevens owned a very lovely home. And he was one of his, the owners of Foster and Stevens stores down on, down on Monroe. That was a very large and very lovely store. Hardware on the first floor and beautiful china on the second floor, and the Mr. Rood, I think was the buyer of that china, up there in that, Foster-Stevens Store. The next, his brother was Wilder, but he didn‟t live on Sheldon. Next to it was Agnes Caulfield‟s home, or Mr. Caulfield‟s home, Agnes was the youngest of the children. There was a Mr. Caulfield owned a grocery, wholesale grocery store, a whole, not store, a wholesale grocery company. And he must have made a lot of his money thru real estate, throughout the city. And their home was a lovely Victorian brick home, and the children were; George, Marie, maybe Marie was the oldest, Stella, Agnes and John. John married Clara Peck, later on. Interviewer: What, could we, I think this tape‟s about all over so I‟m going to turn it over O.K.? Miss Robinson: Yes, Alright. Interviewer: You were saying who married Clara Peck…? Miss Robinson: Well, John, the youngest of the Caulfield family married Clara Peck after her tragedy with Arthur Waite. She first married Arthur Waite and, you know that story. I don‟t, don‟t know whether I‟d better put it in or not. Interviewer: No, it‟s that‟s alright…. Miss Robinson: No, most everybody knows… Interviewer: If anybody wants to know they can certainly find out… �9 Miss Robinson: Yes, but after her tragedy, John Caulfield courted Clara, she had gone to California to live, and had a very lovely home in Pasadena. Both John Caulfield and Voigt, Ralph Voigt went out to spend the winter out there and I think they probably both were, maybe they were, I don‟t know of course their intentions, I don‟t know was, the, I don‟t know Mr. Voigt‟s intentions, but he was out there with, with John during that same winter and almost everybody thought that the two people were, courting Clara, but John was the one that married her. And they lived in California from then on. One of the most prominent members of the Caulfield family was Anna and she was among, I don‟t know, I think, I don‟t know where she‟s, whether she was the oldest or not. I, I don‟t know whether George or she. I didn‟t mention her before did I? Interviewer: No Miss Robinson: Or Marie, she was a very attractive woman and a very brilliant woman and she studied art. And became a very authority, connoisseur would you say of in art. She brought to Grand Rapids the Alliance Française, or she started one and she also started a dramatic club. And she was president of the Ladies Literary which was right across from where I lived. The Ladies Literary Club must have been founded in eighteen seventy for it had its hundredth birthday last year in nineteen seventy. Agnes, Anna was, wore beautiful clothes and she was a very, gracious president. I can remember the Ladies Literary Club from a very small child, it had a great many of the prominent women of Grand Rapids in it and who, numbers of whom were presidents. Mother was a member and I used to like to go over there when, when there was no club going, where there was nothing when I was a little girl. And I, if the janitor was there I‟d go in there, sometimes, I‟d, the club was a little different than it is today, It‟s been made over. It was, it had a flat floor, today it has a raised floor, for, had a flat floor and all the chairs were caned bottomed, they were oak cane bottomed. And the platform now you have to go enter the platform from the back of the stage. At that time it was not as high as it is and it, you could, you could go up by steps. There were three wide steps that go up. And it was very pretty, very attractive. It had two lovely tables, I remember and two lovely chairs up there. They didn‟t have as many dishes in those days. There were two rooms back there as it. It didn‟t it, they haven‟t changed the plan of it, the auditorium and the stage had been changed. Mrs. [Loraine] Immen was a very prominent woman there, she had Shakespeariana; she was the head of the Shakespeariana. My mother was a member of that. Some of the, she‟s given a window in the Ladies Literary, a beautiful window in the, in the front room. It was given in, I don‟t know, I think she gave it. Her class, she was a very brilliant woman and her classes were very brilliant. Then there was a Mrs. Fletcher. Now Mrs. Fletcher I‟m not sure just how she was related to Mrs. Ward and Mrs. Ward is related to the Corneliuses. But Mrs. Fletcher was the second wife and I think Mrs. Ward was the daughter of the first wife. I don‟t know, she was the mother of the Corneliuses, wasn‟t she? I, I may not… Interviewer: Yes? Miss Robinson: I‟m not very straight on this. They owned the Fletcher block that was on the corner of Division and Weston, not far from me. Mrs. Fletcher had a Shakespeare group in the club. I don‟t know whether Shakespeariana was outside the club in those days or not but it is today. Mother belonged to both of them and Mrs. Fletcher thought that she was her star pupil because Mother was a very beautiful reader. When I was coming, Mother had to retire from the �10 Shakespeare Group and Mrs. Fletcher was quite disappointed when she had one of her star pupils leaving. Well, that, I can remember going down to the Fletcher Block. That was the corner, was a saloon there later, but I think there were rooms up there that Mr. Fletcher owned. People lived above buildings in those days. I mean they were not just scum, but quite nice people. In fact, I think my mother and father on Monroe Avenue, till he got started in his business, had rooms right in, next to his office, above the Herkner building. Interviewer: Yes? Miss Robinson: And, other people lived all those rooms are all empty now you know, but they, and there was a restaurant, a quite a stylish restaurant down there under the Herkner. But I‟m wandering, the Fletchers, I lived there and I used to like to as a little girl, run up into the Fletchers. I‟d go up the back door, on Island Street and Mrs. Fletcher would give me maple sugar candies. That‟s how I remember Mrs. Fletcher. But she was a very bright woman and carried on the Shakespeare group in the Ladies Literary Club. They had, at one time; Mrs. Russell was the president, Mrs., what was his name? She was a Comstock. Interviewer: He was a Comstock, Mr…. Miss Robinson: No, a Mrs. Russell was a Comstock, Mr. Russell, and Mrs. Boltwood was her sister. They were Comstock sister, Comstock was named hot little town, he owned all that land, out there now…. Interviewer: I think that, I think that the way it was, was because I‟ve interviewed the Russells is that Mr. Russell was the Comstock and Mrs. Russell was a Hopson. Miss Robinson: No that‟s, you‟re talking about the son. I‟m about the, Mrs. The older people. Interviewer: Oh, OK, I see. Miss Robinson: Mr. Russell and Mrs. Boltwood. Mrs., that Mrs. Russell was the father of Francis Russell, and Francis Russell married Lucille Hopson and they went to school with me. Interviewer: I see. Miss Robinson: Francis Russell was in my class in high school. And Lucille Hopson was probably the next class down, a year or so later. And no they‟re my, but this is the older group. They lived up, they lived out at North Park, not North Park, near the Soldier‟s home and we, in Mrs. Russell‟s home they had a very beautiful, ballroom and gave many, a young parties out there for the young people of the town. There was Francis Russell and his older brother, Charles Russell, he, they still live out in that home out there. And then, Mrs. Boltwood lived on the, there was Wealthy-Taylor bus that went out, out there and went right between those two houses. The Boltwoods on, near the river. Now the Boltwoods and the Russells owned all that river land and they gave it to the city and it, it‟s a park land. It was given on condition that they would redeem it from the swamps; it was in the swamp land. And maybe, at this time I‟m diverging from Sheldon Avenue but during the war, Lucius Boltwood was in the army. I suppose Francis was �11 too, I don‟t know, but I knew, I knew Lucius. And, Lucius was, tried to get in the army. He was turned down many times and then he was, he wanted to go into the Navy and he couldn‟t get in. This is the First World War. And then he went into, he finally got, he was finally drafted. He‟d been turned down time and again and during this time, he was engaged to a Marian Berkey, who married him and before, I think he went to war. Yes, I‟m sure because he died in the war. And she was, became Marian Boltwood. You see and then later, she‟s Mrs. Whinery now. She married Ingles Whinery, after a number of years after Lucius Boltwood‟s death. Well, I was telling, the reason I brought in the Boltwoods and the Russells on Sheldon Avenue was because they were, Mrs. Russell and Mrs. Boltwood were both presidents of the Ladies Literary Club at different times and as a little girl, the Ladies Literary Club, when it was first new, you know that was one of the first big clubs in the ladies clubs in the United States. It was known all over for its wonderful programs, they brought in such marvelous people and Anna McKnight, Anna Caulfield McKnight when she was president, brought a great many of the, she brought Mr. Roosevelt and Mr. Taft and many prominent people before, while most of the ladies clubs of the country were just having well, programs among themselves. Interviewer: Yes. Miss Robinson: What do you call them, what‟s the word I want to use, homemade programs, current events and so forth. Well, mother would go over to the Ladies Literary. I can remember this first, they had a janitor just half a day in those early days and we were right across the road and very convenient, and they didn‟t have many dishes and they would be going to serve the tea so or they would be going to put, bring flowers down. And they would come down to our home and they couldn‟t get into the club because the Janitor wasn‟t there so they would say “can we leave our things in your vestibule?” And they‟d leave a lot of these different dishes and /or vases in the vestibule and I always thought of it as well I think we were kind of an annex to the Ladies Literary Club. And then after the membership after the club was over, a lot of mother‟s friends would come over and we almost had a reception there, following the Ladies Literary Club. Well, then when Mrs. Russell and some of these people that mother knew became president, then she, they weren‟t quite so strict about letting people in those days, she would think of me , I was thirteen or fourteen years old and she would think of me and think, oh I wish Doris could go over and hear that program. So she would go up to some one of the ladies and say, “Can I get a ticket, a guest ticket for my daughter?” And they‟d say “Just bring her over.” So I remember that when Mr. Roosevelt, that is what happened when Mr. Roosevelt came to town. Anna McKnight was then president. Anna Caulfield McKnight and she gave mama permission to bring me over, and I sat on my front porch at the time be, before mother came over, and up the street came Mr. Roosevelt in a very elegant carriage, with someone driving and some prominent man beside him. And he went in to the club house, and then I, Mama came and got me and I went over and I heard Mr. Teddy Roosevelt talk and he was very much impressed with Mrs. McKnight. She was a very gracious woman, very, very educated, very cultured and a connoisseur. I told you before in art. Later Mrs. Knight, Mrs. Cau, of course Anna, she was Anna Caulfield; she married Mr. [William F.] McKnight, a prominent lawyer here and they built up on the, or they bought up on the corner of Fountain and Lafayette, right next to the Shelby home. That is where Anna, is living to, that is �12 where Agnes is living today. A Mrs. McKnight went later to France and lived there quite a while and met very prominent people there and she had photographs of many prominent people there where she had her, photographs of many prominent men that she had met here in America when, Agnes has them there I think on their grand piano. They‟re very, it‟s quite, I would say a very valuable collection of pictures. Well, then across the road, let‟s see if I can think of anything else, George, oh well Marie, Marie was a very attractive, oh I know what I wanted to tell you about, I can remember Marie and Stella, she, Stella was one of the children. Stella and, she was a friend of my mother‟s though quite younger, they, they would pass our house and I was a little girl and I can just see those girls with their trains and their lovely, full skirts, ruffled skirts and lovely picture hats with lovely parasols. Every, these girls in those days carried parasols and they looked just beautiful, I can remember that so well. And of course, John was older than I, oh I would say he was quite a bit older than I but he was and he was younger than my brother. My brother was fifteen years older. My brother, I think, maybe I‟d tell a little bit about my father and my brother in my home, there before I go get through. My father had been a prominent dentist and when he came to Grand Rapids, there were just nine dentists in the town. And he was quite aggressive in a way, he was, I think he was a popular man, I think he was very much liked because he died when I was five and I can remember him but I had so many people, Mrs. Russell, Mrs. Boltwood use to come to me and say, your father was such a nice man. And he had quite a big (practice?) at the time on Sheldon he had built his practice up to quite a good practice of quite prominent people. There the Voigts that came to him and the Russells and the Boltwoods, but of course I was so young I can‟t remember all the rest, I just remember my mother telling me, and I can remember that he died of diphtheria. Interviewer: How did he catch diphtheria? Miss Robinson: Nobody in this city no, had it and we don‟t know but we think it might have been a carrier because he practiced, you see, he was practicing dentistry and he worked over their mouths and he might have had it and it was very, very, virulent black diphtheria in those days. An antitoxin was just new. And I was taken out, I had had the grippe, and I had a nurse, and that nurse went right over to my father who had colic, they called it colic but what I think it was appendicitis. I don‟t think they knew what an appendicitis was, and I think he had actually, every once in a while he would have an attack of colic, and I think it must have been his appendix that were not right. And then so this, he had colic and then he went down to Dr. Randall, no Rankin. Dr. Rankin was a prominent throat man and a doctor, no he didn‟t go... Yes, Dr. Rankin operated on his throat. And I think, that was the worst thing in the world that may, he may he had throat trouble, and he didn‟t go for his colic but he went down there evidently for this throat that would, left a raw place and he had, he had, black diphtheria starts in the nose and they didn‟t recognized it and he was very, very ill when they recognized it. Well, they took me out and they took me to the Bradley, to the Bradford home, and it was a farm out on West Leonard that was all farmland there, no none of these houses. And the [Charles] Bradfords were very good friends of my mother‟s and father‟s and one of the Bradfords married an Afkin and the other Bradford, Leona, of course she was a child older than I at that time but, she married Mr. [Arthur M.] Godwin of the bank. What‟s his first name? Interviewer: I don‟t �13 Miss Robinson: Mrs. Godwin, Mrs. Per, Mrs. Godwin was here, Lillian, Lily Godwin, she was a Perkins, she married a Perkins and Mable Perkins is her sister-in-law. Well, Mr. Godwin‟s first wife, he was vice president of the Grand Rapids Savings Bank and his first wife was Leona Bradford. And that‟s where I was, out there on that Bradford farm at the time of my father‟s death. But I was five years old and, in those days it was, of course, that was quarantined. They had two nurses then and so Dr. [D. Emmett] Welch became his doctor and Dr. Welch was one of the prominent doctors in the throat, ear, nose and throat. He married Fanny McCrath, a very prominent family here who lived on Cherry Street near Jefferson. And right up on in the cemetery where my father is buried in Oak Hill, my family plot, is in McGraths, a large tombstone for the McCraths. Dr. Welch is buried there and Mrs. Fanny McCrath Welch is buried right next to where all my and then the Davises are, that live on Fountain are right next to us, and the Waters mausoleum is right there. I grew up there, I don‟t go very often, my father didn‟t like it, didn‟t want anybody to go. We go once a year. Well, now what else oh, I‟m up on the corner of the Caulfield house, I diverged there and told them a little bit about my family. Anything I want to tell anymore about that, I guess not. Across the road from the Caulfields was Johnny Burns home, now that, remember that‟s an older family. That isn‟t the John Burns that died later, that, the mother of Mrs. Alexi Burns, that‟s her grandfather. Well, they were a prominent family and they had a daughter, a son John Burns and a daughter who was Mrs. Hollow and they had s son, he, the grandson lived there. Well, he was quite a gay young fellow. They had a lot of money, they were very wealthy people you know the Burns. You know Mrs. Burns, don‟t you? She just died. Don‟t you know who Alexi Burns is? Interviewer: No. Miss Robinson: Oh, they were prominent people here and they were very prominent and very wealthy. An Irish family and there are I „m thinking why I‟m smiling a little bit, he was quite a friend of the McGurrin boys who lived up in the block on another side of the road. There was Mickey McGurrin and I can‟t think of the names. Tom sometimes I used to know him by, but that isn‟t the name I know. The Woodcocks lived on the corner and the Woodcock boys were Harold Woodcock and Robert Woodcock, they never married. But that was a big brick house, very in that this is the block that‟s just this side, that‟s I‟m talking about that‟s just this side of the Catholic Church. And this block had a number of Catholic families in it; quite wealthy Catholic families. Interviewer: Now that is which street? Miss Robinson: What? Interviewer: Which street is that? Miss Robinson: It‟s Sheldon. Interviewer: Sheldon. �14 Miss Robinson: It‟s on Sheldon, the corner of Sheldon and Cherry. The Woodcocks, and they were a wealthy family, they were across Cherry Street from the Caulfields. Johnny Burns was across the road from, on Sheldon Street. He was on the corner of Cherry on the west, the northwest corner of Cherry, and then the Turners who was the, who started, who owned the Eagle newspaper. Lived on the, I think his name was Aaron Turner, and who lived on the north, we, the southwest corner. Burns‟ lived on the northwest corner and Turner lived on the southwest corner and the Woodcocks and with their sons Harold and Bob, who many people will know here in this town, the one just died recently, lived on that other corner. The second house next to the Woodcocks was the, was the McGurrin House and there was Mickey McGurrin and we‟ll call him Gerald McGurrin. Gerald McGurrin. I think he‟s known by Tom too. Mickey McGurrin was quite a friend of Bern Halls. Burn Hall was the grandson of John, the Burns. They were, he was about my age, a little older, these and they had a gang. And up here on Cherry, on a Fulton Street lived Brandt Walker and Brandt Walker told me they had a gang. Brandt is dead now, he lived between Lafayette and Prospect and they had a gang. But they were not quite; they were a little milder than the McGurrin gang. And they were scared to death for fear the McGurrin gang would come up and attack them. And they had their barns filled with stones they‟d collected stones and they were ready for an attack. And sometimes they did, the two gangs got together, I guess and had good little fights. Well, Irene McGurrin became a music teacher in the schools and Mr. McGurrin was General McGurrin, a general in the Army during the War of 1812. Oh, the war, Spanish-American War. The Spanish-American War. And later he was made head of the Soldier‟s Home, out on the North end where the Veterans are now. It was the Soldiers‟ Home and he was demoted, well he was Colonel because that was the actual title that went with that home, that office. They were quite a colorful family, I think, and I can see him riding horses during the parades that came up Monroe Avenue on Decoration Day, he always led a company. There‟d be the coming those parades would have soldiers of the, GOP is it? Interviewer: G.A.R. Miss Robinson: G.A.R. Interviewer: Grand Army Republicans Miss Robinson: Grand, yes Grand G.O.P. is Republicans. Interviewer: Republicans. Miss Robinson: Grand Party of the Republican and then, they kept getting older and older each year and then they finally couldn‟t march anymore and they‟d come in carriages and then finally there were none at all. And then, there would be the second, army thing would come up would be a regiment of the Americans, Spanish-American War, and I can remember when that war ended, and all the Dewey‟s pictures that would be in all the windows and I can remember when Mr. McKinley died. They had his picture in the window draped in black. He was, of course killed by an anarchist at Buffalo. I can remember I was seven years old I think and I ran out and told the people next door that Mr. McKinley was gone. �15 Interviewer: How did you get the news? Miss Robinson: My mother. Newspapers, extras would come out, all the different newspapers; we had two, three papers in town. There was the Herald which had been the Eagle. Mr. Turner so got old, made his money I guess, he was the head of the Grand Rapids Eagle and he sold it or it became the Herald, I think he lost his money and he had something to do with and William Alden Smith was a Newsboy I think on that paper and they knew him quite well through that and he I think Mr. Turner lost his money and Mr. Smith recommended somebody to buy it and he sold his paper to him and he never got his money out of it. Interviewer: Yes? Miss Robinson: It was beautiful where he lived in that beautiful white house on the southwest corner. I don‟t know, I can remember one or two incidents that Mrs. Moser, she was the daughter of Mr. Turner and lived in that house. Interviewer: Now that house on the southwest corner of…. Miss Robinson: Yes, Cherry and Sheldon. Interviewer: OK. Miss Robinson: Across from Johnny Burns on one corner and Mrs. Woodcock on the other, and Gerald McGurrin, they were good Catholics and Gerald was full. Harry as I told you was the head of a gang and he went up in, he used to go up in that church and he‟d, the Catholic Church and he‟d get into pull the belfry bell and the priest would go after him and he‟d run and one day he ran down Sheldon Street and he got into the Turner home and he ran right through the front door an out the back door and down to Division and after, the priest, Mrs. Moser told me. She said we never gave Gerald away to the priest but he was the one that pulled the rope. Then there was another family on that side, another two families. There were the [George H] Longs right next door to the [Aaron B.] Turners. . Mr. Long was a lumberman and he made a great deal of money thru lumber. It was a beautiful red brick house trimmed in white and there were a number of daughters. He was quite, I don‟t know what to say here in public about him. Because he had a daughter, maybe you better put that out but he had a very lovely wife and very lovely daughters. There was Emma and she became Mrs. [John P.] Homiller. There was Helen, I can‟t remember what her name was but her daughter is Mrs. Kendall, out here. And then there was Anna and she married Alex McPherson and their daughter is Anna, Margret McPherson the music teacher here. And the youngest was Louise. I can remember Louise better than the others. Though I did meet Mrs., they were grown up you see when I was still little. But I can see Louise passing our house and she was educated in France, I think. And he was very strict with his daughters but, in some ways they were afraid of him, I think. They were a colorful family. Now I can‟t go into the all the details I‟ve just heard it repeated you know. Interviewer: OK. �16 Miss Robinson: Doctor Sinclair a homeopathic doctor was our doctor and he lived next door to the McGurrins, the third house down. It was the Woodcocks, the McGurrins and the Sinclairs. He was a doctor M.C. He had a brother in town here by the name of Dan. D. S. I guess Doctor D. S. and M. C., Sinclair and he was, I just loved Dr. Sinclair, he was, they don‟t have homeopathic doctors anymore. He was didn‟t believe, they didn‟t believe in the other, other doctors were allopaths and their idea, oh I think it was to give medicine that was of the same type. I‟m not sure, I might get it mixed up, but I know their medicines tasted good. There never was anything bad in that you tasted, they tasted of sugar and they even when they were water, put it into a glass of water they never tasted bad. He was a lovely man. And Jean his daughter married Mr. Curtis who was president of the Old Kent Bank at one time. And they lived up on Fulton Street here and Douglas Sinclair was the son. Interviewer: I think that‟s about it Miss Robinson: Alright. Interviewer: I think that was a very good interview though Miss Robinson: Was it? Interviewer: Yes. INDEX A F Alliance Française Club · 10 Amberg Family · 7 Fletcher, Mrs. · 10, 11 B G Godfrey Family · 3, 4 Boltwood Family · 11, 12, 13 Booth Family · 3, 4 Burns Family · 14, 15, 16 C Carroll, Mr. and Mrs. · 5 Caulfield Family · 4, 9, 12, 13, 14 Clements Family · 7 Collins Family · 7 D Davis Family · 14 H Hicks Family · 7 I Immen, Loraine · 10 L Ladies Literary Club · 5, 10, 11, 12 Leonard Family · 7, 14 �17 M Russell, Mr. and Mrs. · 7, 11, 12, 13 McKnight, Anna · 4, 12, 13 S P Shelby Family · 3, 4 Perkins Family · 8 Perkins, Judge · 7, 14 Putnam, Mrs. · 5, 6 U R Robinson, Albert (Father) · 1, 2, 4, 5, 6, 7, 10, 11, 13, 14 Robinson, Jennie M. Baker (Mother) · 2, 5, 6, 7, 8, 10, 12, 13, 14, 16 Robinson, Mary P. (Aunt Molly) · 8 Roosevelt, President Theodore · 12, 13 University of Michigan · 6 W Ward, Mrs. · 10 Watson, Major Amasa B. · 2, 4, 5, 7 Winegar Family · 2 Woodcock Family · 15, 17 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2b7f136dcd276cee4d38435a209846b9.mp3 309fb3e1b9ad60260bb1524891f55f12 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Rapids Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Local histories Memoirs Michigan--History Oral histories (document genre) Description An account of the resource Taped and transcribed interviews conducted in the early 1970s primarily of the children and grandchildren of many of the founders of Grand Rapids, Michigan; many of whom were residents of the Heritage Hill neighborhood. Interviews were collected to develop a significant collection of oral resources that would supplement other primary and secondary local history materials. Initially funded as a private project, Grand Valley State College (now University) assumed responsibility for continuing the project until 1977. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Various Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/452">Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf; audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text; Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1971 - 1977 Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23_34Robinson Title A name given to the resource Robinson, Doris Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Robinson, Doris Description An account of the resource Doris Robinson was born in 1893 in Grand Rapids, where she lived her whole life. Her father was a dentist. She once saw Theodore Roosevelt at the Ladies' Literary Club when she was fourteen years old. Subject The topic of the resource Michigan--History Local histories Memoirs Oral histories (document genre) Grand Rapids (Mich.) Personal narratives Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Grand Valley State University Women Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf audio/mp3 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1971 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a8abcf5f1e7d1fcc3b64ac53db5f7a8f.mp4 82de836b55d5664e150f0702d632ad13 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7a952516e54a2b667b1eb66ba7367471.pdf 74fa74f54beb2fa37aecc5db318c2e4e PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project George Robinson (01:20:37) (00:20) Background Information • • • • • George was born in Allegan, Michigan in 1922 His father worked at Baker Furniture as a factory foreman George graduated from high school in 1942 While in school he had paid much attention to news of the war, but had never expected to be drafted George enlisted in the Army with a good friend of his after graduating high school (2:45) the Army • George was first sent to Fort Custer in Battle Creek, MI where he was sworn in and received physical examinations • He was then sent to Camp Crowder in Missouri for basic training • There was tons of red clay in the area and it was hard to breathe with all the dust • The men trained on a rifle range, marched, and did many physical activities • George was in basic training for about six months and then went to Midland Radio School in Kansas City to learn Morse Code • The classes were very difficult, but they had an excellent instructor • George and others were staying in a luxury hotel and able to go out to town on the weekends • The classes were much better than basic training and they were treated well (11:55) Camp Picket, Virginia • George continued training in Virginia and then was transferred to Little Creek for amphibious training • They worked on mock landings near beaches • They were working as a unit with the 294th Joint Assault Signal Company • George was working on furnishing communications along the beach (16:30) Florida • He was then sent to Fort Pierce in Florida to work on maneuvers in swamps • The men had been staying in tents near a sand bar when George all of a sudden got very sick • He was sent to the infirmary and the doctor told him that he had a sinus infection, but he felt much worse • George was later diagnosed with Spinal Meningitis and was sent to an Air Force hospital �• • • • • A doctor later told him that he needed to get involved in more outdoor activity, so a nurse took him out to hang out at the nearby Yacht Club on Palm Beach They met many nice rich people and visited all their mansions along the beach George continued to recover in the hospital for about two months and was then sent back to Virginia He had been told he would have to start right back in with the strenuous activity and he appealed to a general with his recent sickness George was sent home to recover for another two weeks (22:15) Europe • After his time on leave George once again went to Virginia and then to Boston • They took a troop train to Halifax, Nova Scotia and then boarded an old Canadian ship • The ship was very old and they had to sleep on hammocks and eat codfish all day • They crossed the Atlantic with a few other ships, but George said he would not have considered it a convoy • They trip lasted about a week and George was sick the whole time • They landed in Liverpool and took a train to Swansea, Wales • The area was devastated and they were there for about 3 months, working on maneuvers and other physical work (27:20) Training for the Invasion • They were getting ready for the invasion of Normandy and George was working on a SCR 284 code radio; it was very heavy and had to be set up with an antenna and a generator • They moved out to a D-Camp along the coast where there was constant air raids • The Germans were trying to blow up ships at the port and every night was like a fireworks display • They often had to hide in trenches to avoid being hit with shrapnel • George and others were in a secret briefing about a week before the invasion (35:15) Locals in Europe • Before preparing for the invasion George had met many nice people in Swansea and in London • Many locals invited them over for dinner • They people were very strong and resilient; London had been blown to pieces and many were still worried about a possible German invasion • During the war it seemed like the whole country was loaded with American troops and ships (37:30) Normandy �• • • • • They were supposed to board a ship for the invasion on June 4, but the ship was blown up before everyone boarded They left the next day on a different ship and headed for Normandy There were rockets flying all over the place where they landed, on Omaha Red, one of the worst places to land They were immediately being shot at with machine guns, artillery, and rifle fire They got off their landing craft and there were dead bodies all over the beach (45:30) Clearing off the Beach • The Germans had great technology and were able to lock down on anything that moved and destroy it • The Americans finally made it through with a tank in the evening and many were able to make it up the hill • George and a few others found a trail that Germans had been moving on and made their way up the hill • The next day they moved along the beach and ended up in a small French town • Their company took over an old French farm house and George ended up staying in the barn • They had not known much about what was going on with the invasion and there were not many superiors to answer to (51:20) Last Days in France • George began working with a ship to shore radio, trying to get ships loaded and to shore with men and supplies • They moved out of Omaha to Cherbourg and also traveled through St. Lo, which was completely devastated • Many pilots were parachuting out of their planes over France so they could cross the channel • Once the invasion had occurred, there was no longer work for an amphibious unit and George was able to go back to the US (56:55) Aboard the Queen Mary across the Atlantic • The Queen Mary was a luxury liner and the ride was much more comfortable and shorter than the ride to Europe • George went home on furlough for 2 weeks and was then sent to California on a luxury train • George was sent to Camp Pendleton for more training and to learn Allied Code for international communication in the Pacific • He had a good friend that lived in California and visited him on the weekends, spending some time in Hollywood �• George was in California for about 4 months training for the invasion of Japan (1:00:45) Hawaii • The men were sent out to Hawaii to practice maneuvers, but soon news of the end of the war came through • George was very glad that he did not have to continue working with the unit from Hawaii because he thought they worked terribly; maybe they had been stationed in Hawaii for too long • He continued to work on changing radio frequencies while waiting to be discharged • George was in Hawaii for about an extra month living in a large tunnel near a pineapple farm • They had a large parade on Honolulu after the war (1:08:45) Discharged • George was sent to Illinois to be discharged and then traveled back to Michigan • He had earlier worked in a shoe store and was not sure if he wanted to continue that work • Many of his friends were leaving to go to college at the University of Michigan and tried to talk him into it • George ended up buying his own shoe store and worked there for 40 years, but sometimes regrets not going to college � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RobinsonG Title A name given to the resource Robinson, George (Interview outline and video), 2008 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Robinson, George Description An account of the resource George Robinson was born in Allegan, Michigan in 1922 and enlisted in the Army shortly after graduating from high school. George went through basic training in Missouri, radio code training in Kansas City, and amphibious training in Virginia. He then went to England to prepare for the Normandy invasion, and landed on Omaha Beach on D-Day. After the invasion George was sent to Hawaii to train for the invasion of Japan. The war ended before George was shipped across the Pacific and he was discharged shortly after. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans United States. Army World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Video recordings Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2008-06-08 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/481a2069776f2f3fc6f235d512c86daf.m4v 2288b500001b75e9dec72f3510ab7e2a https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/98bafa2e7f6d031cc1238bca07cdd759.pdf 8002cb5f203f19c1ae547a0352f2a94c PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans' History Project George Robinson Post-Vietnam Cold War 59 minutes 29 seconds (00:00:38) Early Life -Born in Billings, Montana on July 3, 1954 -Father was transferred to California, Washington, Kansas, and back to Montana -Settled down in Montana when George was nine years old -Worked in finance services -Served aboard the USS Badoeng Strait (CVE-116) in the Korean War -Mother was a medical secretary and did transcriptions for doctors -Graduated from high school in 1973 (00:02:30) Vietnam War -Very aware of the Vietnam War -Watched the evening news and saw footage from the war and anti-war protests -Father was pro-military -He was in the Civil Air Patrol and the Reserve Officers' Training Corps in high school -Aware of the events happening in the country and in Vietnam -Two of his football coaches were drafted and sent to fight in Vietnam -Came back changed men -Older brother was drafted, but never got called up to serve (00:04:47) Enlisting in the Navy -Planned on enlisting in the Navy after high school -Always fascinated by planes and the water -Meant that since middle school he was interested in going into Naval Aviation -Enlisted two or three months before graduating (spring 1973) -Recruiters were happy that he enlisted -Went to Butte, Montana for his enlistment physicals -Exciting to get into the Navy -Took an aptitude test to see where he would do well in the Navy -Told he would do well as an aviation structure mechanic -Fit him well since he liked to work with his hands -Eventually got the job that he was promised (00:07:51) Basic Training -Ordered to report to San Diego, California for basic training -Got to fly there, which he enjoyed -Went through basic training with his best friend -When they arrived in San Diego the Navy recruits were calmly told to go wait for a bus -The Marine recruits were screamed at and immediately given orders -Arrived in San Diego at night -Brought into a big room on the base -Formed a training company -Given a brief orientation �-Taken to get food then issued a bunk for the night -The next day they got up early and walked over to a building for further processing -Vaccinations, haircut, and breakfast -Basic training was split into two phases -Together they amounted to about nine weeks -Shorter because the Vietnam War was coming to an end -First phase of basic training was a week and a half, or two weeks -Worked on discipline, protocol, and getting used to working as a unit -A lot of the recruits resisted discipline -Didn't make sense to him since they were all volunteers -There was some ethnic tension in the first phase of training -Had an idea of what to expect from his experience in the ROTC -If someone resisted, or made a mistake, the entire company was punished -Ex. Standing at attention in the cold at 12:30 AM -Men washed out -One man smashed his own head on bathroom tile to get discharged -Next phase focused on the details of being a sailor -Navy history -Uniform Code of Military Justice -Ranks in the Navy -Seamanship -Didn't receive any specialized training in basic training -Basic training consisted of marches and classroom work -Learned about ships and the parts of ships -Had a mock ship called the USS Recruit (TDE-1) Learned about how to navigate a ship and the jargon used on a ship -Learned how to fight fires on ships -How to go into a room with a fire and put out a fire -Received gas training -Went into a room and put on a gas mask, then tear gas was pumped into the room -Once the room filled with gas they had to take off their masks -Unenjoyable, but not traumatizing -There was a lot of pomp and ceremony for graduation -Received orders for further training -"Cinderella Liberty" -Got to leave base, but had to be back by midnight -Received dress uniforms -All white, and more like an officer's uniform than the "traditional" uniform -Marching to graduation a seagull pooped on him -Nothing he could do to clean it off -Didn't get in trouble for it though (00:23:17) Aviation Structure Mechanic School -Received orders for Naval Air Technical Training Center Memphis -Sent to the "A" School to learn how to be an aviation structure mechanic -"A" School would be like undergraduate school �-"Fleet" is like an internship, and "C" School is like graduate school -Lasted six weeks -Focused on learning about metallurgy and riveting -A lot of classroom work and hands-on training -Learned about hydraulics, metals, and locks and oxygen systems -Trained from 9 AM to 5 PM then had homework -The base was away from Memphis, and there wasn't much to do on base except study -Didn't bother him because he was underage anyway -Limited transportation off base limited travel off base too (00:27:00) Stationed at Naval Air Station Miramar -Received orders for VFP-63 at NAS Miramar, San Diego, California -VFP-63: Light photographic squadron of the Navy -Upon arrival he checked in with the chief of the squadron -Had jets coming and going all the time, so it was always very loud -Worked with variants of the F-8 Crusader -F8J: fighter jet and RF-8G: photo reconnaisance -There were five detachments aboard five different carriers at sea, and the "Home Guard" -He was part of the "Home Guard" which supported the five detachments -Supplied jets to the detachments and repaired jets for the detachments -Helped train new pilots before they went to an aircraft carrier -There was always something to do -The F-8s were older jets and always needed repair -Repaired jets due to rough carrier landings, or hard landings at Miramar -Replacing brakes, arresting gear, or landing gear -Stopping corrosion from salt water -The base worked 24 hours a day and there were three different shifts -Afternoon and evening shifts were more relaxed -Had enough work, so there was always something to do -Went to Naval Air Station North Island and collected parts from the "boneyard" -Place where planes were retired and used for scrap (00:33:27) Carrier Duty -Did "night qualifications" aboard the USS Enterprise and USS Ranger aircraft carriers -Went aboard a carrier for two weeks and sailed around Alameda, California -Pilots had to fly at night before going to a carrier at sea -He worked as a troubleshooter on the flight deck at night -There were never any major injuries or accidents while he was on the carriers -Most injuries were basic bumps and scrapes -Worst accident happened after he left the USS Ranger -A jet made a hard landing and the landing gear hit, and killed, a sailor -Jets took basic damage because of being flown by new pilots -Exciting to be on the flight deck of aircraft carriers (00:37:13) Men of VFP-63 -Unit was diverse in terms of military careers -One man had fought with the Marines in Vietnam and transferred to the Navy -Men that had been in Vietnam and served off the coast of Vietnam �-A lot of them had enlisted out of high school (00:38:26) Post-Vietnam Military Climate & Morale -Saigon fell in April 1975 -After the fall of Saigon the Navy maintained a minimal presence near Vietnam -There were financial cuts to the military -Negative public opinion of the military after the Vietnam War -Civilians ignored servicemen, but weren't rude -Felt like being nonexistent -Shops wanted money from sailors, but didn't want to deal with sailors -Morale was good in his unit -Nobody was having major problems, or getting thrown in jail -There was recreational drug use, but it never caused problems (00:41:56) Foreign Military -Saw Iranian officers at NAS Miramar -Buying stripped down F-14 fighter jets from the U.S. government -Fortunately, they weren't sold any scrap parts -In 1979 Iran was taken over by religious extremists (00:44:30) Downtime -Spent time with cowboys -Went to country bars -Set up informal, impromptu rodeos -Didn't spend a lot of time in downtown San Diego -There were still a lot of hippies in San Diego -Found them interesting, but felt no connection with them (00:45:40) Getting Married -Met his wife, Theresa, while stationed at NAS Miramar -Wife was in VF-121 -Known for Top Gun -Met his wife at the Enlisted Men's Club in late 1975 -Navy didn't care about fraternizing between men and women -At the time, women were kept separate from the men -Different barracks -Not allowed to serve aboard ships -Most did clerical or medical work -Didn't notice any tension between men and women -There were more men in the Navy than women if his own unit was evident -Received orders for HT-8 (helicopter squadron) in Florida -Supposed to report there the week he was scheduled to get married -Wife pulled some strings and his orders for HT-8 were cancelled -Got married and moved into an apartment in San Diego -Secluded, nice apartment, but it got broken into -Decided to move to an apartment in Poway, California (north of San Diego) -Brand new apartment -Spent their first Christmas there together -Lived below the poverty line, but managed (00:52:43) End of Service �-Signed up for four years -Planned on making a career out of the Navy, but getting married changed that -Doesn't regret getting married, just wonders how different life would've been -Left active duty in August 1977 (00:53:43) Life after the Navy -Had his first child, a son, in May 1977 -Went on to have three more children -Planned on returning to Montana, but the economy was bad -Moved to Theresa's hometown of Grand Rapids, Michigan -Lived with her parents for a few months -Got a job at Metzgar Conveyors through his in-laws -Applied to a lot of different businesses that dealt with airplanes -Didn't have the necessary license paperwork from the Navy, so he couldn't do that -Brother-in-law worked for the Postal Service -Took the Civil Service Test and a year later he was hired -Wound up working for the Post Office for 37 years (00:57:07) Reflections on Service -Helped him understand different people and different ethnicities -Exposure, working, and living with different people -Showed him that everyone is human, for better and for worse � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_RobinsonG1750V Title A name given to the resource Robinson, George S (Interview outline and video), 2015 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015-04-23 Description An account of the resource George Robinson was born on July 3, 1954 in Billings, Montana. Shortly before graduating from high school in 1973 he enlisted in the Navy. He received basic training in San Diego, California and went to Aviation Structure Mechanic School at Naval Air Technical Training Center Memphis, Tennessee. He was assigned to Naval Air Station Miramar, California and worked in VFP-63 (a photo reconnaisance squadron). He also did work aboard the USS Enterprise and USS Ranger on two week training exercises near Alameda, California. He stayed with VFP-63 at NAS Miramar until he left active duty in August 1977. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Robinson, George S. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American United States. Navy Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Moving Image Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/x-m4v application/pdf https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/19ff2d33656fc847383143bf390bedb2.mp4 3cbe182406010324653671d650ff9f63 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/459d605bea529769bfa686e7224f39eb.pdf ad8d4eeacecc1fadf91fa2548d8ea65a PDF Text Text Jack Robinson  WWII Veteran  United States Merchant Marine  (58:58)    (:15:00)Born in Newton Massachusetts 1924; Grew up in Boston Massachusetts       Adirondacks, New York: Lake George  • Started racing sailboats when he was 10 yrs old  • Began competitive racing  • Heard about the war right before 18th birthday      (:55:00)Enlisted in military on his 18th birthday      Family  • Father went to MIT for architecture but lack of jobs put him in the insurance business with his  father  • Great Grandfather was a sea captain who built the house on Lake George during Civil War days    (2:22) Enlists in the Merchant Marine‐September 1942  • Enlisted in the Merchant Marine so he could guarantee he would go to sea‐felt he could do the  most good there  • Captain Bassett was a neighbor‐Captain of the Maritime Academy  • National Academy at Kings Point‐Sea training was at sea  • Older brother was in Navy‐Submarine Service    (4:53)Kings Point‐Long Island‐Great Neck  • Based in the old Chrysler Estate    (5:30)Pass Christian Mississippi  • Basic Training  • Taught how to tie knots‐in charge of helping other cadets  • Spliced line  • Short term physical training‐ 3‐4 months long  • 6 months of sea duty before assigned to Kings Point  • Called the Inn by the Sea  • Still under construction at time  • He drew plans for some of the buildings‐delayed his sea time by 1‐2 months      �• • • • • • • • • • • • • • (8:00)Mobile Alabama‐First Cruise  Liberty Ship  Loaded Cargo‐mostly ammunition and some poison gas  (10:00)Went to New Orleans –picked up convoy  Went to New York for orders‐had to run black‐even east coast lights were black at this time  Phoned his dad saying he would meet him at grandma’s house as means of telling him location  without getting into trouble for betraying war secrets  Anchored in New York Harbor right off of the Statue of Liberty  Went to Halifax‐picked up more ships in convoy  (12:20)Shipped out at 4:00am headed for Belfast, Northern Ireland‐July 1943  Cadet‐learned about handling a ship‐billow soundings‐went down into 4 and 5 holes of ship  shafts‐drop chalk lids in holes‐measure water lines‐recorded it in ships records(called the black  gang by Jack)  Convoy made 10 knots  Only 4 Canadian Corvettes for protection  (15:45)Suppose to have 96 ships in the convoy only had 80  Still holds data to archives of the ship he was on‐data and crew information  HX244 was his convoy number    • • • •   • • • • (17:00) London  Visited Selfridge Department Store‐later bombed  Air Raid 1 week before‐under siege  Quiet for two weeks while they were in port unloading  1 week after they departed London‐ bombed again  Cardiff, Wales  Untouched at this point  Visited Cardiff Castle  Gave pound of butter and dozen egg to friend living there  Civilians in London treated military men well—as Merchant Marine sailor, he wore civilian  clothes    • • • • • (20:30)Le Havre, France  Picked up 200 barrels of wine‐brought back to French consulate in New York  Dead fog for 13 consecutive days‐never saw the sun  Dead reckoning the whole way‐within 13 miles of destination with no radar  Came within inches of other ship  (23:18) sirens warning of u‐boats but no sight of them  • (23:45) New York  Reloaded supplies for troops in North Africa    �• 15 ships of convoy broke off headed for Casablanca Africa‐had aircraft carrier and destroyers  protection on the way‐Fall 1943      • • • (27:27) Casablanca North Africa  Tanks lined up as far as eyes could see waiting to move across North Africa  Supply Line  Casablanca smelled like untanned leather and flies    • • • • • • (28:00)New York‐Returns to Academy at Kings Point  Comprehensive training‐cargo handling, ship instruction, rules and regulations, rules of the road,  signaling, navigation, first aid, mechanical drawing  Towards license for coast guard  Everyday 8‐4pm 9 month course  Started with 48 members and ended up with 24 members  Jack was grouped with men with 3 years of college and law degrees. He was also the youngest in  his group.  (31:21)Jack finished 4th in his class    • • (31:26)Free time  Jack was company commander of the rifle company at academy  After dress review on Saturday‐Jack could venture into New York where his sister lived in Mount  Vernon. He stayed over on Saturday night and returned to ship on Sunday    • • • • • • • • • •   (32:00)Graduation  October 13 1944    (32:20)Kemp P. Battle ship  Made 3 trips   1st to Marseille France  Mariposa had just arrived with troops‐kept the Battle waiting in harbor  Unloaded and reloaded 500 Arabs and took them back to Oran‐all were seasick  Morning‐breaking down convoy to go thru the straights of Gibraltar‐two ships ahead of them  smashed into each other and caught fire. Dutch captain Peter Dowling‐blew abandon ship signal  (35:35)Jack’s position was third mate  Bob McGraw‐high school classmate‐onboard ship at dry dock in Oran  Commodore was navy tanker with 20000 barrels  of high octane fuel‐minute he turned his light  on‐was hit with three torpedoes from a German submarine drifted in‐PBY seaplanes hadn’t  picked him up  Headed up Spanish coast towards Marseille  �• • • • • • • • (39:45)Back to the United States to Reload and off to Italy  Adriatic to Trieste  Water spout‐rained fish  Thru straights of Messina‐anchored in Naples  Air raid‐two Italian ships opened fire on airplane‐turned out to be an observation plane  Went to Livorno instead Genoa because Germans had control of Genoa   (43:50)Anchored at Piombino  American tattoo on British sailor  Climbed leaning tower of Pisa    • • • • • • • •   (49:00)Headed back to United States to Reload 1945  Roosevelt died‐Jack said Roosevelt was their friend  (52:20)Welding instead of Riveting put ships out quicker‐could prefab the ships‐made number 3  hatch a weak spot‐put belly bands around ship‐done while docked  Went on SS Maria Mitchell to South America‐no cargo‐war had ended‐hauled coal to Brazil  Loaded tonnage went to Argentina to Rosario  Graf Spee‐German pocket battleship sunk down there‐off of Montevideo  Rosario had political upheaval‐gun fire‐loaded corn‐topped off in Bahia‐headed to Africa  (56:20) Canary Islands to Algeria  Sub pens‐ caused rift between Americans and French  � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RobinsonJ Title A name given to the resource Robinson, John (Jack) (Interview outline and video), 2007 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Robinson, John Description An account of the resource Jack grew up with boats, and enlisted in Merchant Marines as soon as he turned 18 because he wanted to be sure to go to sea. He served on several different cargo ships, crossing the Atlantic several times and visiting Britain, North Africa, France, Italy and South America. Describes convoy duty, life on ship, and explosion of a tanker hit by a U-Boat's torpedo. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) Video recordings United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Merchant mariner Merchant marine--United States Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2007-10-23 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives