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                    <text>Solidarity in The Way, The Truth, and The Life
Thanksgiving Day
Text: John 14:6
Richard A. Rhem
Christ Community Church
Spring Lake, Michigan
Advent I, November 28, 1999
Transcription of the spoken sermon
Someone who has become a good friend, Rabbi David Hartman, who has been in
Muskegon on three different occasions in that full-day dialogue sponsored by the
West Shore Committee for Jewish-Christian Dialogue, has sent me his most
recent book, an autographed copy, and the title is the title of his lecture here a
year or two ago - A Heart of Many Rooms. It's a wonderful image; a heart of
many rooms is a heart that can receive and accommodate diversity of opinion and
various perspectives on the truth. As I was reading the introduction, I realized
that it is really a statement of David Hartman's life and passion as he lives in
Jerusalem, having moved there from this country in order to be a part of that
emerging Israeli experience, the living community of Jews returned to Jerusalem.
In the introduction, he mentions an experience that he had back in the 70s. The
Six Day War was going on and David Hartman was terribly distressed and
recognized that the nation, Israel, was in jeopardy, and he said, "Oh, Lord God, if
we are to experience another Holocaust, I'll not be able to do it. How long," he
says, "could we continue to be witnesses to the silent God of history?"
Well, Israel won that war and feeling compelled to go there, he visited Israel and
he found that, in the wake of the victory of the Six Day War, the Jews were
dancing in the streets of Jerusalem. There was a mood of jubilation. He was a
Rabbi in a congregation in the Bronx or Montreal at the time, and he returned
home on the ninth of Ab. Ab is a Jewish month in the Jewish calendar, and the
ninth day of the month Ab is the day that the Jews traditionally mourn the
destruction of Jerusalem that occurred by the Roman legions back in 70 C.E. The
ninth of Ab every year they gather and they mourn the destruction of Jerusalem.
So, he leaves the jubilation of the streets of Jerusalem, the living Jewish
community, and he comes to his own people in his own synagogue and they are
in mourning for the destruction of Jerusalem. The incongruity of it struck him,
and he writes that it seemed like a parent who prays for the recovery of a sick
child and the child recovers, and the parent continues to pray for recovery
because he or she has fallen in love with the prayer. He announced to his people
© Grand Valley State University

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Richard A. Rhem

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who were in mourning in traditional fashion for what had happened nearly 2000
years ago, that the people of Jerusalem were dancing in the street! That's one of
those deep human experiences that has a way of changing one's thinking or at
least jarring one out of traditional patterns and thought. David Hartman, from
that moment on, began to ask himself, "What does it mean to engage the God of
history in the present? What does it mean to engage the God of history in a live
community, here and now?" That became the passion and the mission of his life.
Eventually, he moved his family to Jerusalem and formed the Shalom Hartman
Institute for the study of peace, trying in that living community itself to live out a
vital Jewish faith, not now waiting.for Messiah to come, but seeing in the
concrete realization of that Israeli community the action of God in the midst of
history, trying to interpret it and trying.to live into it.
As he reflected on that, he realized that, as a traditional, observant Jew, he had
been living between history remembered and history anticipated. In the
meantime, it was a time of passive waiting, which, in the Jewish experience, was
explained as the time of the silence of God. Where was God when six million Jews
suffered death? Where was God through all the centuries of history and the
struggle and the suffering of the Jewish people?
As a Rabbi, David Hartman had celebrated the great Jewish festivals which
celebrated God's past action, and one of those festivals, the Passover, had an
eschatological (future) dimension. The liturgy for Passover ends with "next year
in Jerusalem." Thus Hartman realized he had been living with a "symbolic
history" which "remembered" and which “hoped,” but missing was the sense of
the immediate presence of God acting here and now. God was "silent."
That triggered lots of thoughts with me as I thought about the first Sunday in
Advent, today, and coming to this table of our Lord for we, too, today have
experienced again participation and ritual and the sacrament, and the sacrament
has called us to remember and to hope. That same eschatological note is in the
sacrament. Jesus says in Luke's gospel, after having shared that meal, "I will not
do it again with you until the kingdom fully comes." Paul, in the institution in I
Corinthians 11, says that, "As often as we eat this bread and drink this cup we
proclaim the Lord's death until he comes." So the Christian experience, very
much like the Jewish experience, is lived in the meantime, between the mighty
act of God in Jesus Christ, and that mighty act of God in Jesus Christ in the
coming again to judge the nations. So we have action past, action anticipated. We
remember and we hope and, in the meantime, we don't really take very seriously
the active engagement of God in our history.
If you want to know what's going on, you go to Washington or Beijing or Moscow
or Paris or London. If you want to know what's going on, check the Wall Street
Stock Market. If you want to know what's going on, read the journals. But God is
not really very vividly present in our thinking about history, our history, our day,
our nationv our world. A kind of passivity comes over the Church.

© Grand Valley State University

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Richard A. Rhem

Page 3	&#13;  

Oh, we're very good at remembering what God has done; we're very clear about
what God will do. Jesus comes for our salvation. Jesus comes again for our full
redemption. That's the story, that's the biblical story, that's the traditional
Christian faith. And here it is, the first Sunday in Advent, the first season of the
Christian year that will bring us into the first season of a new millennium, and
we're doing it again.
Traditionally, I would say to you Advent is the time when we remember that the
one who came is coming again. Of course, I can't do that anymore because last
year I told you Jesus wasn't coming again, and of course, you always believe
everything I say. But I don't really think Jesus is coming again. I think that that
idea of a second coming permeated the air of the first century. It marked Jewish
expectation and the emerging. Christian movement; they were expecting the
imminent return of Jesus from heaven. Imminent. That means right now, very
soon.
We've noted here before that the first great crisis and perhaps the greatest crisis
of Christian faith is the fact that Jesus didn't return. Nothing happened. Paul had
to write his letter to the Thessalonians because they laid off work and were
waiting for it to happen. The expectation runs through the whole of the New
Testament, and it didn't happen. And of course, if you have an infallible, inerrant
Bible that you have to defend, you're in real trouble, because what you have to do
is say that it will still happen. It just hasn't happened yet. But, if you can hear that
scripture witness as the testimony of those who were giving witness to their
deepest faith and conviction in the only kind of terms that they could understand,
the conceptuality of their own context and history, then you can simply say they
got it wrong. What they were expecting didn't happen and, if it didn't happen,
there is not any reason to think that they were simply wrong in terms of a couple
of thousand years, but rather, their understanding of what God had done in Jesus
Christ was wrong.
Well, yes and no. They got the core of it right, for they saw in Jesus Christ the
embodiment of God. They saw in Jesus Christ the word made flesh. They
experienced the presence of God in Jesus Christ, or, as our good Bishop Spong
said here, the God presence. That's what the scripture lesson is about in John 14.
Jesus says to them, "You know where I'm going," and Phillip doesn't know. He
said, "We don't know the way. We don't know where you're going; how can we
know the way?" Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life." And, of
course, he went on to say, "No one comes to the father but by me." At least that's
what John wrote decades after the event because that was what John felt, being a
leader of a small persecuted minority movement. John wasn't talking, about
whether or not the truth of God is held exclusively in Jesus Christ or that the
whole world has to become Christian in order to come into communion with God.
That wasn't even in the purview of what the writer was saying; the writer was
trying to give witness to that which was the deepest experience of his life. He said,
"In Jesus, my God," and so, we have that sixth verse, "I am the way, the truth,

© Grand Valley State University

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Richard A. Rhem

Page 4	&#13;  

and the life." And rather than some final, dramatic, divine intervention to right
all the wrongs, to bring all things to consummation, to damn the wicked and
rescue the righteous, I wonder if that wasn't something put on Jesus, but that
Jesus himself was simply living out the God life so that those who encountered
him could say, as John writes in this gospel, "If you've seen me, you've seen the
father. How much plainer can I make it? In my flesh, this is the embodiment of
God; this is what God is; this is what God is about; this, my way, is the way. This,
my truth, is the truth. This, my life, this is life."
I wonder in this season of Advent if, rather than the passivity that has marked us
– waiting for the final act, I wonder if we really took Jesus seriously we might
start a contagious consciousness of what, after all, we are called to be, so that it
wouldn't simply be for us coming to this table remembering and hoping,
remembering what God had done, anticipating what God would do, but rather,
coming to this table understanding ourselves becoming the companions of Jesus.
Bishop Spong also said that word, companion. I looked it up; he's right. It comes
from the Latin - com, with; panis, with bread. To be a companion literally is with
bread. You break bread with your companion, with your friend. You have a meal
with your friend. Human relationship and human community is built in the meal.
Too bad we have to do it symbolically with a little piece of bread and a little dip in
the chalice. Too bad we can't throw out banquet tables and have conviviality. And
then, in the midst of the meal, a real meal, experiencing the communion. But, this
is all we can do, so we give you just a hint of what it really would be about. But
what if, coming to that table was our declaration to be in solidarity with Jesus.
That is, solidarity with the way of Jesus, the truth of Jesus, the life of Jesus. What
if we really believed that God was in that one, so that that one, in the midst of our
history was the pointer for the only hope of history, which is not for some
dramatic coming again, but for the likes of us to quit Lolly-gagging through
history, and like a David Hartman, saying "I'm going to go and I'm going to live in
Israel because I want to experience the God I remember from past action in the
present." It might make a difference in our world and, God knows, the world
needs transformation.
I mentioned to you Thursday I have been going.through the video series of World
War II, narrated by Walter Cronkite. I watch those videos of the rise of Hitler.
You see the brutality and the violence of the brown shirts. The other night I
watched the invasion of Norway and Denmark. I could cry. How can we do that to
one another? I remember watching Schindler's List, and I thought we ought to
get the whole world together and make everyone look at that film. I saw Private
Ryan, and said if only we could get the whole world to sit down together and then
to look at each other across the table and to say we can never, never do that to
each other again. The horror of it! The brutality of it! The inhumanity of it! The
violence and the destruction that is a denial of everything about the way, the
truth, and the life that came into expression in Jesus Christ.

© Grand Valley State University

�Solidarity in The Way, The Truth, and The Life

Richard A. Rhem

Page 5	&#13;  

The Dalai Lama, recently in the Golan Heights at a World Interfaith Conference,
spoke of the third millennium as the millennium of peace. God knows we need it,
rather than our religions fueling the divisiveness and the barriers and the
hostility between people. If the world religions, whose core values point to peace,
could use all of our energy and all of our efforts and resources to raise the
consciousness, the human consciousness of the world to say we've got to stop
killing each other, we've got to stop excluding each other, we've got to stop
dominating each other, we have to do away with this arrogance, this
triumphalism, this tribalism that will tear the human fabric apart.
Think of the marvelous picture of the peaceable kingdom and the prophets, the
shalom. David Hartman says, "That's not a picture of some future time and place.
That's the immediate critique of every moment of history and every structure,
economic, social, political, religious. Every structure and every moment of history
comes under the critique of that ideal of shalom, of that magnificent picture, that
glorious vision when they will not hurt or destroy in all God's holy mountain."
My God, people, there's something to do! This isn't about some comic strip
finality at the end of time. This is about right here and right now, and it's about
you and me, companions of Jesus, who is the way and the truth and the life.
References:
Rabbi David Hartman. A Heart of Many Rooms: Celebrating the Many Voices
within Judaism. Jewish Lights Pub, 2001.

© Grand Valley State University

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                    <text>A Hope Too Narrow
From the series: Memory and Hope
Text: Isaiah 35:4; Matthew 3:12
Richard A. Rhem
Christ Community Church
Spring Lake, Michigan
Advent III, December 12, 1999
Transcription of the spoken sermon
Have you noticed how you might hear of a person or a region or perhaps discuss a
disease, you've never heard of them before, you had no knowledge of them, and
the next day you go out and you see the same thing referred to and within the
next few days you find that particular new piece of information everywhere? It's
not as though it suddenly came to expression, but simply because you suddenly
had an awareness, your attention was called to a certain phenomenon and then
you began to see it everywhere. You had a fresh awareness that caused the filter
of your mind to take in that piece of data and to register it. It's a common human
experience, and I have found that to be the case as I have reflected on the larger
religious scene and, more specifically, the Christian tradition and the Christian
church. It continues to impress me, startle me, and amaze me how narrow is the
hope of the Christian church. I want to suggest to you today that the Christian
church has traditionally had a hope too narrow and, that being the case, it is not
true simply for Christian faith, but I come to see more and more that it is an
aspect of religion itself.
Ironically, religion doesn't always make us very nice people. Religion can bring
out the worst in us and can feed the baser nature, which is a part of our human
creaturehood, and so this morning I had you open your Bibles to that section in
Isaiah to see the contrast between Isaiah 34 and 35. I didn't intend to do that,
frankly, until I got studying the whole thing. I was going to simply use 35; it's a
wonderful passage. However, there is one verse in there, verse four, which
contrasts the blessing of God for Zion, for God's people over against the
vengeance with which God will come to judge the rest. But, as I was studying and
I read Chapter 34 before, I said, "Oh, my goodness! What a picture!"
Did it shock you just a bit? Did you know that that was in there, this chapter
about the vengeance of God, the furious God, the God who is furious with the
nations, who is going to come to judge the nations, whose sword is sated with
blood? The judgment scene of the devastation of the nations and specifically of
Edom.

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Edom was a neighboring tribe, a neighboring people, and perhaps you will
remember that Edom comes from Esau so that what we have is the old rivalry
between Jacob and Esau, the rivalry between the brothers and, of course, no one
gets our vengeance more than those who are closest to us. So, what we have in
Isaiah 34 is a picture of a coming devastating judgment on the nations about
Judah, and in Chapter 35, the restoration of Judah and the desert blossoming as
a rose. Some phrases out of Chapter 35 you have seen on greetings cards,
Christian greetings cards - streams in the desert, for example. How many
sympathy cards haven't you seen with the last phrase that I read, that time "when
all sorrow and sighing will flee away"? Chapter thirty-five is magnificent in the
images that it portrays for the people of faith; it is as wonderful as chapter 34 is
terrible in that awful judgment that is depicted for all of those who are not the
people of God, Zion, Jerusalem.
As I see that contrast, I see something that, unfortunately, I am seeing
everywhere and that is the tendency of religion to polarize people, the tendency of
religion to become tribal. Tribal religion. Now, we don't face that fact very often
because we say, "Well, the Bible begins 'in the beginning God created the heavens
and the earth.' We're talking about the one true God, the creator of all," and so
forth. And to be sure, there is a complex tapestry that makes up the Hebrew
Scriptures as well as the New Testament documents. There is not a one-party
line, there is not a consistent witness, and so next week I'll take a couple of
passages that will show that larger hope. But this morning I want simply to call to
your attention that aspect of religion that tends to hold a hope too narrow. That
tendency of religion, in all kinds of religious communities and in all kinds of
religious traditions, to become tribal, to put it bluntly in a word, the tendency of
too much religion that tends to hope for God to lift one up and damn one's foes,
tribal religion which can become very violent and which shapes an unsavory
human character.
Bad religion is really bad stuff because it is so powerful, because it is so potent,
because its claim is that it puts one in touch with God, because its claim is that it
gives one truths that are absolute, and therefore that will justify almost any kind
of human action in the name of that God and that absolute truth.
That kind of religion is alive and well in our world today, and in this Advent
season as the millennium is about to turn, we have an added emphasis on that
end time drama. You'll hear from various angles in various forms, that kind of
religious faith set forth that says this is the way to salvation, and either says
explicitly or leaves for you to draw your own conclusion that, for all the rest, there
is condemnation, eternal suffering, torment, and darkness. That's tribal religion.
That is religion with a hope too narrow and there is something in the human
person, it seems, an insecurity and a fearfulness that tends to make us vulnerable
to that kind of message that will secure us over against the others, that will
convince us that we have the absolute truth and the corner on the truth and the
only way of salvation. The violence of Isaiah 34 can be duplicated throughout the

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Richard A. Rhem

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Hebrew scriptures, to say nothing of the Book of Revelation which you had wellexpounded to you last week, that apocalyptic frame of mind that so permeated
the century before Christ and into the first century, that apocalyptic frame of
mind that was expecting the end of the world and was hoping for the judgment of
God to fall on all of the rest.
I can understand how it comes about. You have a little people like Judah, just a
little tribal people and they're the pawn of the power brokers from Egypt up to
Assyria to Babylon. You have them as this pawn in the power plays of the great
empires; they are occupied, abused and oppressed, and the most natural reaction
in the world for the human creature is anger, frustration, and finally the crying
out for vengeance. It’s all in the book and it is expressive of a tribal religion, of a
tribal God, my God, not the God of my enemies, the kind of religion that divides
the world into my kind of people and all of the rest, the kind of religion that
wants God to lift us high and damn our foes.
I call it to your attention because it's so alive and well in our day. As I began,
sometimes you become aware of something and then you see it everywhere, and I
have to say that, having been in this business all of my life, which is a long time
now, I have become increasingly aware of the tribal nature of much religious and
especially Christian expression in the media, newspapers and journals. Then,
being somewhat masochistic, I tune into late night evangelical television. Now,
it's not exactly the kind of thing that soothes me and puts me to sleep, but the
thing that concerns me is that those who are the true believers cough up the kind
of funds that keep this kind of mentality and this sort of spirit alive and well so
that it almost seems to me that the public expression, the broadcast expression of
Christian faith is permeated with more of the spirit of Isaiah 34, or if that's too
strong for you, consider John the Baptist.
Now, John's situation was different. John wasn't talking about "us" and "them."
John was talking about us and those of you within the circle, the religious
leadership whom John condemned in strong terms. But, the spirit is the same.
John the Baptist breathes fire. John the Baptist speaks about a God who is
violent, a God who will come with vengeance, a God who will square the accounts
with a wicked world, and it is a God that cannot be squared with the God and
father of our Lord Jesus Christ. It is the kind of religious message that betrays
what we really believe about the grace of God and the love of God. If it is true that
Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life, if it is true, as Jesus says according to
John's gospel, "If you've seen me, you've seen the father," you're talking about
another kind of God than the God of Isaiah 34, and you're talking about a God of
quite another spirit than the God of John the Baptist. I've gone through that more
than once here. Jesus distanced himself from John the Baptist, distanced himself
from the ministry of John, the ministry of fire and judgment, and, if you want the
starkest contrast reflective of Jesus over against this other mentality, then just
remember him in the anguish of crucifixion praying, "Father, forgive them for
they know not what they do." There was an awareness in Jesus of a God who was

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Richard A. Rhem

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beyond the tribal gods, and at this time of the year, in the lines of George
McDonald,
They all were looking for a King
To kill their foes and lift them high.
Thou cam'st a little baby thing
That made a woman cry.
I wonder why it is that there is such a tendency to hold on to the spirit of John the
Baptist rather than to see through the eyes of Jesus the totally different
understanding of God, a God full of grace, the God of whom John wrote, "God is
love, and those that dwell in love dwell in God and God abides in them." Why is it
that so much of religion even to our day is marked by the kind of arrogance that
says we have the truth and the whole truth and there is not truth or salvation any
other way? Why is it, in spite of the possibility of the experience of other
traditions, there is still in our day such a shrill note sounded about the exclusivity
of Jesus Christ? Why does what I find in Jesus Christ, why is it in any way
diminished if that is not the only way?
I know from personal experience the difference in my whole demeanor, in my
whole being, having moved from an exclusivist position with a God of vengeance
whose vengeance would never have come on me, of course, but always on the
other; I know the difference it makes to live with a larger hope.
Why is it that so much of religion lives with the hope too narrow, shaping people
with a spirit bristling, on edge, condemnatory, afraid, defensive? Why have we
not been able to see that so much of religion is focused on a tribal God rather
than on the God and father of our Lord Jesus Christ? Why can we not see that no
understanding of God is worthy that doesn't understand that God will not rest
until all God's children are home, because God loves all and embraces all and has
come to us so wonderfully in the vulnerability of the child that should give us a
clue from the beginning that it is not by domination, coercion, and
condemnation, but by the embodiment of grace that God is best served. Only
such will keep us from living with a hope too narrow.

© Grand Valley State University

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                    <text>A Larger Hope
From the series: Memory and Hope
Micah 5:1-5; Luke 4:16-30
Richard A. Rhem
Christ Community Church
Spring Lake, Michigan
Advent IV, December 19, 1999
Transcription of the spoken sermon

Advent is a time of contemplation, reflection, and preparation - preparation for
what? For the future, surely, but what future? A future in this world and this
present age, or a future in another reality, in heaven? The Kingdom of God - is it a
present reality and experience, or is it a future state? Advent is a time of
remembering, for we have our minds focused on the coming celebration of
Christmas and thus on our founding story as Christians - But, Advent is a time of
expectation - a time of waiting and the biblical sense of waiting is waiting in hope.
The biblical story is a story about God's engagement in history past and the
promise of God's action in history future. History is the ongoing story between
God's action, past, and God's action, future. That is the biblical notion. In
traditional biblical and liturgical terms, we are in the time between the times - the
past coming of God in our flesh and the future appearing of the one who came,
coming now to judge and bring all things to their consummation.
Year after year, the same story - The child was given; the King is coming. And it is
quite a lovely story that is lodged deeply in our hearts and overflowing with
affectional memories as well as filling us with hope and confidence - It is a story
that enables us to negotiate the passages of our lives in this world, speaking to us
of another world. The story originates in another realm and culminates likewise
in another realm.
We speak of God's salvation and, while that is a present experience, its real
significance is the promise of eternal life beyond the limits of our earthly journey.
Salvation becomes a very personal matter. We hear much about having Jesus
Christ as our personal savior, the one who came to die for us in order to make
possible God's forgiveness and eventual entrance into heaven.

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Richard A. Rhem

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Now I'm speaking about Advent and Christmas in traditional terms. I could have
you open the hymnbook and over and over again I could demonstrate the
primary focus of our Christian faith as we have learned it.
God so loved the world that God gave the son - Born a child of Mary, to live for us
and die for us and bring us to heaven. Annually we are immersed in the story of
one born a child who became a King - a King who will be coming in blinding glory
to judge and rule and bring us to heaven. I'm not really telling you anything new.
This is the old, old story. God's gift of Jesus, our savior, to take away our sins and
open heaven's gates.
And what about this in-between time, this time between his first coming and his
coming again? Well, it is a time for the Gospel to be preached, a time to offer the
salvation God has provided through Jesus' death and resurrection.
The story is about a spiritual Kingdom, about salvation, about heaven. There are
present responsibilities - to preach the Gospel, to work for human well-being,
acts of charity and the alleviation of suffering. But, essentially, there is no hope
for this old world, this present age, this earthly reality of which we are a part. The
world is simply reeling toward hell. It will be destroyed; we must be saved out of
the world.
But, what if we get it wrong? What if we missed the point of Jesus? What if we
made a religious cult out of what Jesus intended as a revolutionary movement of
world transformation? What if we got all bogged down with sin and guilt and
threat of damnation when Jesus was about social, economic and spiritual
transformation?
Let me read a description of the world. See if you recognize it.
... a world where dreams of limitless material wealth and technological progress
danced in the heads of the great entrepreneurs and in the rhetoric of ambitious
politicians - and where the looming nightmares of family breakdown, crime,
sudden loss of livelihood, and untreated and untreatable illnesses plagued the
minds of the vast majority. It was, in short, a world that should seem ominously
familiar - in which sweeping social and economic change was embraced by some
and condemned by others, dramatically transforming the life of all the empire's
people, from the wealthiest nobles in their palaces to the poorest shepherds
wandering with their flocks in the hills. This is becoming increasingly clear
because modern scholars have at last begun to explore the vast area covered by
the rule and civilization of the Caesars to search for the life styles of both the rich
and famous and the far larger, yet mostly hidden, world of the Roman havenots,
peasants, plebians, and slaves.
Richard Horsley, The Message and the Kingdom, p. 2F. As this citation begins,
one might think one is reading a description of life at the end of the 20th Century,

© Grand Valley State University

�A Larger Hope

Richard A. Rhem

Page 3	&#13;  

but it is, as becomes clear, a description of the Roman Empire at the time of
Jesus' life in the occupied land of Israel.
Through archeological exploration and cross-cultural studies we are
gaining a wealth of information about the ancient world of Jesus' time and
beginning to understand the poverty and suffering of the lower classes
which formed the vast majority of the population. Occupied by a foreign
power, exploited by the imperial rule through taxation and land
appropriation, there was a brewing cauldron of frustration and anger. And,
where was god? What if the promises of prophets of a new creation, of a
time of prosperity and peace - the shalom of the peaceable Kingdom when
swords and spears would be changed into implements of agriculture?
Where was God? When would this awful suffering cease?
Is it not a natural human question and normal human response? Why, O Lord,
why? How long, O God, how long?" Well, one answer - a common one found in
the Hebrew prophets was that Israel was suffering for its sin. That is how
Jeremiah explained the Babylonian Exile. I could cite passage after passage from
the prophetic book - You have sinned; God is punishing. But, why should the
righteous suffer? Another solution must be found. And thus the rise of the idea
that the world was in the grip of an evil power. For the time being, God was
allowing Satan to hold sway creating havoc in history, the suffering that was
everywhere. But God would not always remain passive. God would act. God
would intervene.
This was the origin of Apocalypticism - Apocalypse - meaning "unveiling" or
"revelation." God would intervene in history; God's judgment and grace would be
unveiled or revealed. In the cauldron of suffering and discontent, there was the
feverish expectation of the exploited and suffering masses when John the Baptist
preached. And John was not the only one. There was a widespread anticipation of
God's dramatic intervention to destroy the evil one and all the agents of
oppression and darkness and the vindication and salvation of the suffering
righteous.
We noted John's preaching of the coming Kingdom in the last sermon - God
would wreak vengeance on the enemies and oppressors of God's people, whether
foreign agents or native collaborators. This was the angry God of Isaiah 34, a God
whose cup of wrath was filled up, ready to overflow in burning judgment.
Jesus came to John to be baptized. Jesus was caught up in the Baptist movement,
himself baptizing down the river a piece. After a time, he distanced himself from
John and his preaching took on a different note - a grace note.
There is a wonderful debate going on in the circle of historical Jesus scholarship
as to whether Jesus was an apocalyptic prophet like John or not. We will have
that issue debated here next March when Dom Crossan and Amy-Jill Levine
discuss Jesus' life, death, and resurrection. But, whether or to what degree Jesus

© Grand Valley State University

�A Larger Hope

Richard A. Rhem

Page 4	&#13;  

was part of the apocalyptic expectation, this would seem to be certain - Jesus was
dealing with earth, not heaven, this life, not some life to come, concrete, down to
earth human existence, not some spiritual Kingdom in another dimension.
Jesus left John the Baptist because he pointed to an alternative vision of God and
called for an alternative community. Luke writes his Gospel with an opening
scene of Jesus' ministry in which he announces what he is about.
The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to bring
good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim release to the captives
and recovering of sight to the blind, to let the oppressed go free, to
proclaim the year of the Lord's favor.
John's hope was an apocalyptic hope of imminent judgment and salvation from
beyond. For Jesus, that was a hope too narrow. I used the word tribal last week.
Religion tends to become tribal - our God looking after our well-being and
destroying our enemies. God on our side. God favoring and saving us. God giving
us the truth, the way to salvation: others need not apply.
For Jesus, that was a hope too narrow. Jesus embodied a larger hope. In his
home synagogue in Nazareth, they were not happy with the expansiveness of his
vision and hope. He pointed to an Elijah story where the Sidonian widow was
provided for in famine, and the Elisha story where the Syrian Naaman was healed
of his leprosy, thus pointing to the broader swath of God's care and concern. The
hometown folk were not happy about God's wider grace and their anger rose
against Jesus.
Jesus lived by and offered a larger hope from which no one was excluded. There
were no outcasts in Jesus' purview. He pointed to a God whose grace was of
expansive embrace.
But, the grace he offered was the grace that created human dignity and worth to
people who had lost their dignity and all hope. The Kingdom is in the midst of
you, he told them. This is the year of the Lord's favor. To the poor, the blind and
the lame, he brought the Good News of God's presence and called the people to
care for one another.
This was an appeal to the traditional covenantal life of Isaiah, to community of
mutual respect and care.
And the life to which Jesus called the people was revolutionary in its impact. He
touched the anger, frustration and despair of the people, but in a positive way of
giving them dignity and solidarity before their oppressors - the covenant ideal of
Israel where God was King alone and the people lived in covenant community.
That was Jesus' larger hope - a hope that embraced all.

© Grand Valley State University

�A Larger Hope

Richard A. Rhem

Page 5	&#13;  

This was the Kingdom that was already present for Jesus, in the towns and
villages, if only people recognized its sanctity and reoriented their community
accordingly - They were poor, oppressed, fragmented. They were disoriented and
dislocated. They had lost hope and they forgot how to live in community. Jesus
called them to remember who they were and to reclaim their lives as children of
God. He called for an alternative community, an alternative society.
Jesus was not a revolutionary of the type that was certainly present -the guerilla
bands that roamed the Palestinian hills, the Zealots that pressed for armed
conflict against Rome - and eventually in revolt brought out the legions of Rome
that destroyed Jewishness in 70 C.E.
But Jesus was revolutionary in calling for the transformation of human society.
This is why he was proved too dangerous to let live. This is why he was crucified.
That he was revolutionary has been proved in our own time by those who learned
civil disobedience from him.
First of all, people must be given a sense of themselves - their dignity and worth
as human beings, as children of God. Then they can resist, non-violently, passive
resistance, civil disobedience, Gandhi, Martin Luther King, the South African
Black Church - all examples of Jesus' Way.
Jesus was not tribal. He had not a hope too narrow. Jesus had a larger hope for
human transformation in this down-to-earth concrete reality of history. Jesus
gave people hope for the transformation of their life here and now.
That is a striking fact. Do you at all sense how revolutionary and radical that is? It
should give us pause.
Who is Caesar? Who is Herod? Who are the Priests and Sanhedrin? Who has the
legions and the swords?
Who are the poor whom Jesus called to awareness of their human dignity and
thus to their birthright as children of God?
How are we doing as the Millennium turns? We are the rich and powerful. Jesus
was engaged with concrete human social, economic, and religious conditions.
Then, can we honestly make him into a savior of a spiritual Kingdom whose issue
is heaven?
Wherein lies the hope for the world? Will it not call for transformation - social,
political, economic? The world could be transformed - what if the vision was
caught not by the poor and powerless, but by the rich and famous?
I can't think about it too long and hard. I would have to change. Better simply to
go once more to Bethlehem and see him as God's gift to save us from our sins and
bring us to heaven - And forget about what he was really about.

© Grand Valley State University

�A Larger Hope

Richard A. Rhem

© Grand Valley State University

Page 6	&#13;  

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                    <text>From Orthodoxy to Freedom
Free Spirit,
A publication of Fountain Street Church,
Fall, 2001, p.17
Richard A. Rhem
When we could no longer with integrity affirm the faith understanding of our
religious community, we were faced with a critical decision: either we must leave
or we must engage in a process of thought, study, and revision in order to bring
our religious understanding to new expression. When I could no longer honestly
preach the orthodox and evangelical faith in which I had been nurtured and
educated and which, in my first four years in the ministry, I had proclaimed as
the pastor of my Spring Lake congregation, I chose the latter course.
After graduating from seminary in 1960, I came to the ministry armed with “the
authoritative Word of God.” The Bible, inspired by the Holy Spirit, was inerrant
and infallible. The preacher's authority lay in the faithful exposition of the biblical
text. Even though serious biblical criticism had been around since the late
eighteenth century, my denomination did not deal seriously with it.
But, after seven years of pastoral experience and preaching, the last three in New
Jersey, I found my authoritarian foundation crumbling. As I became aware of a
critical approach to scripture, it was no longer possible for me simply to assert,
“The Bible says...” I had to begin again. I needed a new foundation if I were to
continue in a preaching ministry.
A European pilgrimage that lasted for four years was not simply a quest for an
academic degree, but an existential quest for a religious faith I could believe in
with intellectual integrity and preach with authenticity. My search and research
were intensive - and the quest continues, but of this I became convinced - there is
no authoritarian claim that can ground authentic religious experience, whether
the claim be grounded in tradition, church or scripture. The witness to religious
experience - in my case, the witness of the preacher – is precisely that: it is
witness.
Traditional religious communities have a “founding story” or event that is the
source of their traditions; for example, the life, death and resurrection of Jesus is
the founding story of Christianity. One may believe the founding story is a
revelation of the Sacred, but its expression is human; it cannot be otherwise. The
founding story can only be told by means of human language and thought forms.
The stories, creeds and confessional statements are human imaginative
constructs and they are most often separated from the revelatory moment by a
long time. Orthodoxy or “right thinking” is not achieved immediately. In the case
© Grand Valley State University

	

�From Orthodoxy to Freedom

Richard A. Rhem

Page 2	

of Christian orthodoxy, it took centuries before the Church settled questions of
who Jesus was, how he was related to God, and how God was to be understood.
But this long process is soon forgotten. A human imaginative construct in the
form of a statement in a creed becomes absolutized - the final word, the only true
expression of a given religion. Orthodox “truth” is thus established, defended,
and used as a weapon to outlaw those who fail to adhere to the established line.
The creeds and symbols of the religion become “fundamentals” to be externally
accepted and endlessly repeated.
When a religious faith reaches the orthodox and fundamentalist stage, it lives on
by authoritarian claim. Free inquiry is no longer welcome; one may think only
within prescribed limits. Ongoing human experience, historical development and
scientific discovery are resisted because new knowledge threatens a creed frozen
in time and established institutional order. The effect is deadening.
When all of this became clear to me, I still remained within my faith community,
but I challenged the accepted orthodox formulations at several points. When
called upon to recant and thereby to deny my best insight and understanding, I
refused and was declared to be beyond the limits of my faith community's
orthodoxy.
I was fortunate; the congregation I had served for over a quarter century voted by
strong majority to move with me into institutional independence where the spirit
of freedom prevails and free inquiry is encouraged.
We are continuing to seek to create a community of love and grace and
compassion, a community of open mind and warm heart. In the early 90s, we
expressed our vision thus:
Christ Community is an alternative to church as usual.
We live together in the awe of worship,
in the Presence of the Mystery of God
Whose inclusive grace moves us to embrace all
with unconditional love and gracious acceptance,
irrespective of race, gender, economic status, age or sexual orientation,
loving the world as God loves it,
following the way of Jesus,
sensitive to the winds of the Spirit,
seeking to discern the Word of God in the biblical tradition,
the movement of God in the context of our culture.
And the story goes on...

© Grand Valley State University

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                    <text>Stories Jesus Told
The Prodigal Son’s Father
“Do You Suppose God Is Really Like That?”
Richard A. Rhem
Luke 15:11-24
Editorial Note: The parable of the Prodigal Son was explored in the first of a
three part series entitled “Stories Jesus Told” and preached at the Lakeshore
Interfaith Community in Ganges on August 19, 2007. It’s a story that was also
the subject of the following sermon, preached in 2004 as the fifth in a Lenten
series entitled “REMEMBERING JESUS, EXPERIENCING GOD”.
Christ Community Church, Spring Lake, Michigan.
March 28, 2004
This Lenten season we are remembering Jesus, hoping thereby to experience
God, and we remember Jesus not because he was alien, a God-figure from
beyond that entered our history, donned our human nature and effected our
salvation only to return to that eternal state. Rather, we remember Jesus
because as John’s Gospel said, “The Word became flesh and dwelt among us,”
and that marvelous insight which is much more profound, I think, than anyone
has ever plumbed, is that God has become human. So, in remembering Jesus,
we are remembering a human being about whom our tradition has said, “There
God is embodied.”
A couple of weeks ago, Walter Wink was with us to suggest that our calling as
human beings is not to become God-like, but to become fully human, because
God is the only Human Being with a capital H and a capital B; and, that this
cosmic process of billions of years has been evolving and has issued into this
present state in which we are the products of that emerging process - alive,
conscious, able to contemplate it all. That cosmic process of billions of years
has culminated in the likes of us, but as Walter Wink reminded us, we are only
primitively human, we are only human on the way, and if that insight of Jesus as
the Son of the Man would indicate, then it is toward that full human existence
that we are moving, by God’s grace, in order that we might become human as
God is Human. And so, in remembering Jesus, we are seeking to experience
God.
Jesus is our story. There have been other human beings who have been
overcome with encounter, who have been overwhelmed by some moment of
epiphany, some rifting of the sky, some theophany, some manifestation of that
Ultimate Mystery. Abraham heard a voice or saw a vision or had a dream and
the instruction was to leave his family and his environment and go out. For

�Richard A. Rhem

The Prodigal Son’s Father

Page 2

Moses, it was a burning bush. The experience of the Buddha in enlightenment
was not other than that, and Mohammed had visions which he then recorded in
the Koran. Our window on God is Jesus and in John’s Gospel again, in that
conversation with Phillip, as we noted, Jesus said, “If you have seen me, you
have seen the father.” To look upon the face of God, look upon the face of the
human.
And so, we have our window, Jesus, and it was Jesus’ life. But in his life, Jesus
was a storyteller, and he told the story which I read a moment ago which is
perhaps his most familiar and best-loved parable, the parable of the Prodigal
Son. The story has a lot to say about the son, about human nature, but it’s more
profoundly a parable about a prodigal God. It is a parable about the nature of
God, for the father in the story is obviously God. As Jesus tells that story, he
reveals his understanding, his sense of the nature of God. I want to think about
that with you this morning with a question, and this is my question to you: Do
you suppose God is really like that? The father represents God in Jesus’
parable. Do you think God is like the father in the parable? If the father image
bothers you, if that is too much a throwback to an old, supernatural being
beyond us, or if the father image as father bothers you, let it go. Think in terms
of the Ultimate Mystery, or a source and ground of being, that abyss of limitless
being out of which flows all that is. I don’t care how you think of it; image it any
way you want to, it doesn’t matter. But, Jesus was talking about that which was
ultimate. He was talking about Ultimate Reality. He was talking about the
sacred, the holy, the Mystery. He was talking about God. I wonder, and I want
you to keep asking yourself this morning, “Do I really suppose that that Ultimate,
that God, is like that? Like the father figure in the story?”
The story is so familiar. There is the request of the younger son against all
tradition and all decency, really, to have his inheritance ahead of time so that he
can depart, and he goes off into the far country. Since we’re focusing on the
father figure, I want you to simply note that there was total freedom given to the
son. There was no injured pride. There was no weeping and wailing. There was
no judgmental attitude. There was no alienation. Jesus says the son made the
request and we know the request was contrary to family order. But, there was
no protest. The father gave him his inheritance and he left without any
brokenness, any estrangement, which says to me that the Ultimate Mystery in
Jesus’ mind is that which offers freedom, total freedom, that we write our own
script.
Now, when I say total freedom, I know I am speaking in a community where we
have such ability to write our script. We are, of all people, most blessed with our
resources, with our context. And I know that that is not true of millions and
millions of earth’s children, so when I speak about the freedom to write our own
script, I am mindful of the fact that that freedom has in some cases severe
limitations. You perhaps have been reading again about women in Afghanistan
© 2004-2011 Richard A. Rhem

�Richard A. Rhem

The Prodigal Son’s Father

Page 3

immolating themselves, setting themselves on fire. Can you imagine? Can you
imagine how tragic must be the human existence of one who would be driven to
that kind of absolute desperation? Did you catch in the newscast last night that
in Palestine the little children are collecting cards like our kids collect cards?
Baseball cards, right? No. The Palestinian children are collecting martyr cards.
Some Palestinian entrepreneur has created cards with the pictures of those who
have been martyred. There were all these little children with their cards and they
were filling their albums with martyr cards. Can you imagine a child growing up
who, rather than having baseball cards, has martyr cards? Or, that young lad, 14
years old, with a bomb strapped to him who was fortunately intercepted by the
Israelis, a suicide bomber really not wanting to die? So, when I think about
freedom to write our script, I know I’m talking to those of us who have so much,
so much beyond so many of the world’s peoples. There are limits to that
freedom, but nonetheless, if there is no longer any freedom, there is no longer
any humanity and so I would say that in the story Jesus tells, what he is saying
in that getting over the yielding to the request of the younger son is that there is
no absolute script that is written; there is no predestinated story that is unfolding
according to some eternal plan; there is no sovereign, ultimate, absolutism in
history. It is rather that we write the story with freedom in greater or lesser
degree.
Do you think God is like that? Do you think that reality is like that? Do you think
that our human experience is like that? We can go from the departure of the son
directly to his return. We don’t have to go into the far country and linger there,
although a lot of great sermons have satisfied prurient interest about what went
on in the brothels and the pig sties, but we don’t really need to go there because
this story isn’t about the experience of the son. It’s really about the father. And
so, from that granting of freedom, we go to that gracious welcome, a welcome
that if you knew the color of the local society, the father an elderly gentleman
picking up his robe and running to meet the son, defies all of the local custom
about dignity and honor and what is right and proper, the father who doesn’t let
the son get his well-rehearsed story out, but rather, embraces him with tears.
Eighteen months or so ago, a few of us were in St. Petersburg and I stood in the
Hermitage before that huge canvas of Rembrandt’s “Return of the Prodigal,”
and pictured there is that old man, his arms straight from his shoulders, the son
stooping before him, with a welcome without recrimination, with a welcome
without any sign of alienation, with a welcome without any word of rebuke, that
spoke not at all of some period of probation, a welcome that simply was a
reunion and a celebration full of love and grace.

© 2004-2011 Richard A. Rhem

�Richard A. Rhem

The Prodigal Son’s Father

Page 4

Do you suppose that God is really like that? Do you suppose that the ultimate
mystery of reality is like that? Well, if we would put it in contemporary terms that
we have been talking about God becoming human, do you suppose that the
cosmic process of 13 billion years has a bias toward love and grace? Would you
think that maybe in this evolving process onto which stage we have emerged
there is something intrinsic in the process itself that has a bias, a tendency
toward love and grace, that kind of magnificent picture that Jesus drew for us?
Or, would you say “No. No, a cosmic reality has no bias toward love and grace.
It is a random process, a random, neutral process unfolding.” You may be right
about that. But, if that is the case, we have emerged and one emerged about
whom they said there is the embodiment of what is ultimate in the mystery of
God, and that one told a story about this kind of love and grace and we have
made that one our centerpiece, that one we say is our window on God; and that
one spoke about that which is ultimate in terms of love and grace. So maybe it
is a random process. Here we are; who would have thought it? Nobody directed
it. That’s one possibility, but here we are and we can gather around a story like
© 2004-2011 Richard A. Rhem

�Richard A. Rhem

The Prodigal Son’s Father

Page 5

that which says that the ultimate values are freedom and love and grace
effecting reunion and reconciliation. So, whether the process has that within
itself or we come on the stage and recognize that and invest it with ultimate
meaning, it doesn’t really matter. Whether intrinsic in the process or affirmed by
us, love and grace and reconciliation and reunion are the Ultimate. Do you think,
do you suppose that that’s the way it is at the heart of things?
That’s not the way it is in traditional religious understanding. That’s not the way
it is in traditional Christian understanding, for while in traditional Christian
understanding the parable of the Prodigal Son is a piece of the puzzle, it is
jammed into the blender with a lot of other stuff and what we get is an
homogenized view in which you have to add some stuff to the parable of the
prodigal in order to get a decent God. In the traditional view, there is something
more that you have in the parable of the prodigal. The father who, in freedom,
allows one to write one’s own story, and with gracious openness receives that
one back into the bosom of love, in traditional Christianity you have, and it’s
right at the heart of this season, you have the whole atonement thing and of
course, the world will never be the same after Mel Gibson’s “The Passion of the
Christ.” It will take another whole generation to wash out that popularization of
the very worst conception of the death of Jesus. But there that violent suffering,
that horrible suffering of Jesus is a sign of the costliness of the sacrifice that was
demanded in order for God to be able to forgive us. That’s 180 degrees from the
parable of the prodigal, for the father in the prodigal needed no payment, no
pound of flesh nor pint of blood. The father in the prodigal parable simply, with
heart broken with joy, received the son home. And that is 180 degrees from
traditional Christian atonement theology which says yes, God is loving and
because God is loving, God provided a way, but God is also just and therefore
needed God’s honor to be satisfied. Those two are in irreconcilable conflict. I
see it more clearly every day of my life. Those are two conceptions of God.
Those are two conceptions of Ultimate Reality.
In yesterday’s paper, perhaps you read that the final volume of the Left Behind
series is out. This is a series of novels about the last things, the end times, a
dramatization of the Book of Revelation. It is a total misreading and
misunderstanding of the revelation of Jesus Christ to John, the last book of the
Second Testament. It is a literalization of that which is highly symbolic, and it
makes that writing, which was aimed at its own historical context in a time of
intense persecution in the early days in the Christian movement, into history
written ahead of time of the last times; and it is a travesty of any kind of
intelligent biblical understanding or interpretation. But, be that as it may, other
than that, how did I feel about it? This is more serious. This is a book review.
The title of the book is Glorious Appearing, The End of Days. Apparently, those
few believers who were not raptured at the time that Jesus came to take them
out of history, those who were left and those who were converted during the
time of tribulation are hovering in a rock fortress, and this review says,
© 2004-2011 Richard A. Rhem

�Richard A. Rhem

The Prodigal Son’s Father

Page 6

... This rock fortress has been protected by God time and time again, but now
its inhabitants face a mighty army whose sole goal is absolute annhililation. This
battle is the Battle of Armageddon, it is the battle of the end time. Armageddon
is a valley in Israel and this is the final battle when Jesus comes and encounters
Satan and Satan’s hosts who have been, of course, afflicting the believers.
Apparently this head dog is Carpathia and Carpathia himself leads the charge.
But, he is no match for Jesus Christ who returns as prophesied to save the
fortress. The battles continue with Jesus’ words alone wiping out hundreds of
thousands of troops. The culmination is at the holy city of Jerusalem fractured
into three by earthquakes as Jesus wins his final victory. Judgment comes for
followers of Satan, but it is the peace that Jesus brings to believers that touches
the heart. While Jenkins’ writing is swift and a bit colloquial, his use of scripture
is truly inspired. Nothing but scripture is spoken by Christ, portions of the Bible
that bring comfort, judgment, war and love.
That Jesus is a warrior. That Jesus slays thousands with his words. That Jesus
wins the final triumph, and effects the salvation of those that believe and the
eternal damnation of those he destroys. That Jesus is totally contrary to the
Jesus who tells the story that we looked at this morning, where the Ultimate
Mystery is love and grace, where there is no final “No,” where the door is always
open and the light is burning forever in the window. This is not just an incidental
matter. This conception, the traditional conception of a God who needs a pound
of flesh and a pint of blood, whose son will return as a warrior to destroy the
wicked, this God is a God drawn by the myth of redemptive violence that
ultimately the peaceable kingdom will be issued in by violence. Walter Wink
used that phrase, the myth of redemptive violence. It is a totally different
conception of the heart and center of reality, and in that myth of redemptive
violence, you effect finally peace through war. President Woodrow Wilson had a
dream of the League of Nations which his own Senate voted not to enter when it
was established, but he led us into the First World War, a war to end all wars.
More recently we have gone into Iraq in order to bring democracy into the
Middle East and we continue to live under the delusion of the myth of
redemptive violence. You may say to me, “Well, what is the other answer, then?
Passivism?” I would say no, not passivism. It is non-violent resistance, and the
cost of non-violent resistance may well be crucifixion and there may be hell to
pay for a long time, but I’ll tell you this - it is the way of Jesus and it is the only
hope of salvation of the world. There will never be peace brought by violence if
we believe Jesus. If we believe Jesus, then there is wonderful news and scary
news. The wonderful news is that the ultimate values are freedom and grace and
love, that love and grace alone transform. Violence can coerce. Violence can
control. Violence can keep the demons at bay. Love and grace alone transform.
Love and grace alone alter consciousness.
Jesus told the story about the Ultimate Mystery, God, being a God of freedom
© 2004-2011 Richard A. Rhem

�Richard A. Rhem

The Prodigal Son’s Father

Page 7

and grace. That’s the good news.
The scary news is that it is in our hands. It is in our hands.
So, do you suppose that God is really that? Where did you get your image of
God? Handed down, of course, as with all of us. But, isn’t it time for us to
receive those traditional images critically and then take responsibility for the
choice we make as to what is ultimate? The choice we make will determine
whether the human family has a future, whether the peaceable kingdom will ever
be realized.
What do you think?

© 2004-2011 Richard A. Rhem

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Special Collections &amp; University Archives
RHC-88 Fei Hu Films
Flying Tigers Interviews
Interviewer: Frank Boring
Interviewee: Lewis J. Richards, M.D. (known as “Doc Rich”)
Date of Interview: 05-30-1991
Transcriber: Frank Boring

[TAPE 1]
FRANK BORING:

In as much detail as you want, give us an idea of your background,
your schooling, your medical training and perhaps your first
practices.

DOC RICH:

I had taken a lot of training in the ROTC and had a good record
and was a captain in the ROTC and we planned on going to enlist
in the army but was talked out of it by my mother. I had been in
different things and finally I decided to go on and study medicine.
And I started late in life. I graduated Creighton University in 1938
and went from there to a Charity hospital in New Orleans for a
year’s training and to a Mobile city hospital for a year’s training
and then the draft caught me, I enlisted in the army and I was at Ft.
uh, Fayetteville, North Carolina. I had considerable training in the
administrative and they could get doctors right and left so they put
me on the administration and training of course and in charge of a
1750 bed hospital. Another doctor and myself worked extremely
hard and we had a good reputation. And Colonel Choing [?] tried
to get us a promotion which we were deserving of, we were only
2nd lieutenants but because we didn’t get up a correspondence, we
couldn’t keep up with the work. However, we carried on at Ft.
Bragg, No. Carolina. And while I was there doing my training,
why Colonel Gentry was there and he was organizing a group to go
to China. Uh, He inquired if I would be interested. I told him very
much. Colonel Choing [?], when my year was up says, you going

�to re-enlist? I says no, he said yes you are. He says I will draft you.
I said no you won’t. He said I’ll show you something. I says I’ll
tell you Colonel, I know you’re a sporting man. I’ll bet you a
year’s salary against a year’s salary of mine and the loss would be
just about the same but the difference in numerical value. He says,
I’ll get you. I says, Ok you want to bet? He wouldn’t do it. So
when my cut orders came through from Washington D.C. with
Roosevelt, he caught me and he says “You dirty little so and so.
You’d a taken my money” I shall never forget that. Then he cut us
the orders and uh, we uh, had a short time to go home and visit and
went out to SF.
FRANK BORING:

What did you tell your family you were going to be doing?

DOC RICH:

After I was released from Ft. Bragg, N. Carolina, I went home and
visited my family and told them my plans and they were
disappointed and worried but knowing how adventurous I was they
were not surprised. I visit there for a while then I went in to SF and
waited for the Jaegersfontein ship to come along.

FRANK BORING:

If you could fill in some more information about your family that
would be good.

DOC RICH:

After I left Ft. Bragg, we went home to visit and we spent a few
weeks at home visiting. I informed my family what I was going to
do. They naturally were disappointed but they had no choice.
There was a war coming on and I told them it was my choice and
that’s what I was going to do. They accepted it because they knew
how adventurous I was. And so we went down to SF and we
waited for the Jaegersfontein to depart.

DOC RICH:

Did you want me to say anything why I came back to S.F. or no?

FRANK BORING:

What did you know about China at this particular point?

�DOC RICH:

My knowledge of China at this time was very limited. In fact, I
would have to say I knew nothing.

FRANK BORING:

What did you know about Japan?

DOC RICH:

My knowledge also, too of Japan was limited. My knowledge of
the Orient and [?] country was very limited. And this shows me
how little the American people know about anything other than
boundaries of the US.

FRANK BORING:

What was the interest in going to China, if you had no real
knowledge of it? What was your motivation?

DOC RICH:

My motivation in going to China was this, I’d worked hard in Ft.
Bragg, N. Carolina, I didn’t get a promotion, didn’t get what I
thought I deserved and I was not arrogant about it and the Colonel
was quite sympathetic about it and he said he didn’t blame me for
leaving him. And it was because of the dissatisfaction and my
unhappiness, I suppose I changed, I made up my mind to go to
China.

FRANK BORING:

During this period of time, a lot of Americans went to the movies
and at the movies they would see newsreels of the times. There
were some newsreels of the bombing of China by the Japanese.
Did you ever see any of those? If you did what was your reaction?

DOC RICH:

I never saw any of those until after the war. Of the bombing of
China. I didn’t answer that very well.

FRANK BORING:

Once you arrived in SF, did you meet with the other AVG people
or by the CAMCO representative?

DOC RICH:

We were met by the CAMCO representatives at the hotel and
interviewed. They gave us our passports and I think I went over as
a, I don’t know, a poet or a gardener, I don’t remember which.

�FRANK BORING:

What did the CAMCO representative tell you to expect? What
were your duties going to be and what did he say you were to be
doing in China?

DOC RICH:

I was informed of my duties in China, we’d be a rug and roof on
the rose. I responded that that had no bearing whatsoever. I was
instrumental in getting Sam Prevo to go because I asked if he
wanted to go too. And he was released from Ft. Bragg and we went
over on the same ship.

FRANK BORING:

Were you asked to maintain any level of secrecy about your trip
and your duties in China by CAMCO?

DOC RICH:

I don’t recall ever, ever, having been informed of any secrecy and
so on. They told us it would be a dangerous trip across the ocean
but we had no trouble. We went back and forth across the equator.
All the way over dodging the ships, which were mostly
ammunition ships and finally we were arrived at Hawaii.
Overnight at Hawaii. No, at Hawaii. Then we went down to
Singapore and we had to unload all of our medical supplies and
everything and I worked all that day and most of the night. And of
course the Jaegersfontein had refused to go any farther. They also
got a report that the Jaegersfontein had to go on. And so the next
day, I had to load a whole outfit over again and I got to see very
little of Singapore.

FRANK BORING:

Of the people you associated with during your trip, were there any
people who stuck out in your mind, any people you became friends
with on the boat trip over?

DOC RICH:

On the boat trip over I became very friendly with a lot of people
and especially Harry Fox. Who became the chief mechanic and a
very capable man. I admire him Uh, We were quite close. I had my
questions about Moon, uh, Moose Moss course he’s cocky and
everything else. But we got acquainted and got along fine. The
nurses and Sam Prevo and myself decided one night to go up high

�on deck. It was a moonlight night, very romantic, we played the
radio uh, phonograph that we had and Red Petach, I mean, uh,
Foster uh, and I were dancing
FRANK BORING:

Start off with Red Foster and I were dancing

DOC RICH:

Red Foster and I were dancing and every time the ship listed why
we felt we might go over board and all of us a little hilarity like
that heard a harsh voice from the captain of the ship. “I want that
noise stopped.” And somebody made some remark and he came
out and made it very emphatic and we got out right away.

FRANK BORING:

What was the routine like on the boat? Were there any incidents
that you can recall that were imprinted on your mind that you can
recall?

DOC RICH:

All the men had to get acquainted with one another and sometimes
there might have been a little differential between the pilots and
the ground crew, but they all finally got acquainted. As we pulled
into uh, Rangoon, I can’t think of one of these, uh, Leroy, what his
name was but he was a radio man and he’s uh, cut. What do you
call these ships that come up to Fiji?

DOC RICH:

One of the junks came out, a junk was coming out to sell us stuff
and one these, of the wise guys got smart and he picked up,
something was very heavy and he reached out and dropped it right
thru his junk and the junk ship sunk. They were just full of it. They
were just an ornery as could be, but a good group.

DOC RICH:

After leaving Singapore we went to Rangoon and the bay was not
deep enough so we had to unload everything else onto rafts and
carry it in and one of the Sampans came out to sell us merchandise
and one of the fellows, he was a radio man, picked up something
real heavy, he leaned over and dropped it thru the sampan and
there was a big hole in it and he lost everything. They was just a
bunch of ornery boys that’s all.

�FRANK BORING:

What was the procedure of the arrival in Rangoon of the medical
officer? What did you have to do? Did you just go on the train with
the whole group to Toungoo? What was your experience when you
finally arrived in Rangoon?

DOC RICH:

When we finally arrived in Rangoon, it was quite different. It was
a dirty city. We were appalled by the poverty and the wild, uh,
animals was, was, wandering about the city. The hotel was quite
nice, very different. We stayed there for a week or two and then we
were loaded on a lush train. The beds were nothing more than flat
boards. We went up to Toungoo and it was a journey. We went up
there, there were these pagodas with cattle all around them. It was
during the war shipping months it was very interesting.

FRANK BORING:

We interviewed Charlie Mott and he says that the arrival at
Toungoo, there was an incident where you were hanging your head
out the window of the train making quite a noise and all. Do you
recall that incident at all?

DOC RICH:

No. I do not. I do not recall the incident of uh, arriving at Toungoo
where I put my head out of the train. But Charlie Mott said I was
carrying on a bit, which occasionally I did.

FRANK BORING:

What was the train trip like up to Toungoo?

DOC RICH:

It was very nice. Just like riding on a cattle car. The bunks were
nothing but a bed, a board on a hinge and you laid on them. And
when we got up to Toungoo, I recall the remark that Moose Moss
ever said, we lived in these thatched huts and he said “it’s the first
time I ever slept in a fruit basket.” Home.

FRANK BORING:

What was your first impression upon arriving in Toungoo and the
area you were to be living in? Describe to us your quarters and
your medical facilities?

�DOC RICH:

Our medical facilities were quite good when we arrived in uh,
Toungoo. We set up a hospital, uh, set up a dentist and had sick
call just like the army. Uh, uh, our facilities were good because we
brought enough supplies along and because we had all been army
trained.

FRANK BORING:

Who were the members of your staff and if you could, give us an
idea of your first impressions of these people?

DOC RICH:

When we first got there, we had two nurses, females and we had
four male nurses army trained. They were all quite competent. A
good group. The uh, nurses, uh lady nurses were oversaw the
corpsman and we had a good rapport. Excellent.

FRANK BORING:

What was your routine like? What was your daily duties if you will
during this period of the first couple of weeks in Toungoo?

DOC RICH:

My duties were to set on the line because they were training these
men to fly P-40's. It was a fast plane, not what they’re used to. The
plane came in at a terrific speed. We lost quite a few planes in the
training. However - Harry Fox took very good [?] and got them
back in service rather rapidly. I enjoyed Toungoo. When I go to a
city I don’t go to the main part of the city, I go out to the
boondocks and see how the people lived and I really enjoyed
Toungoo.

FRANK BORING:

Can you give us an idea of your experiences when you did go out
into the boondocks? Any stories about that?

DOC RICH:

One of these great big birds called condors. Condors is the name. I
used to wander out into the fields and the thing that ah, surprised
me were several large birds that remind me of a Condor. Also, too
the most beautiful things I can remember about Rangoon, is moon
over Burma. The golden moon, there’s nothing like it. And it’s
nothing to, in the rainy season, to sit and see the sun setting on one
side with three or four rainbows and turning with three or four

�rainbows, and turning back in back of you and seeing the reflection
of those rainbows too. Perfect reduplication. No, I like Burma.
FRANK BORING:

During the time of training, there were a number of accidents.
Planes being destroyed especially on landing were a difficulty.
What were some of the incidents you recall? Were you ever called
to actually treat anybody for injuries? What was your actual role
during this period of time of training?

DOC RICH:

In this period of training, the men were learning how to negotiate
and handle a high speed plane. Many planes were lost in training.
However, fortunately if they had an accident, they were completely
wiped out. We lost three good men. Uh, other than that, there was
nothing very minor, except Dengue fever. I’d never seen a case of
Dengue fever and we had these men in the ah, hospital and I kept
trying to think what it was and one of the native nurses, a
Caucasian came in and said “oh, she says, isn’t that a beautiful
case of Dengue fever?” I said, “Oh, yes it’s the perfect picture.” I
didn’t know Dengue fever from typhoid fever. But, we had many
experiences like that.

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                  <text>Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. &#13;
&#13;
Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG.&#13;
&#13;
Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor.</text>
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                  <text>&lt;a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540"&gt;Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)&lt;/a&gt;</text>
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                  <text>Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections &amp; University Archives</text>
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                  <text>Fei Hu Films&#13;
Christopher, Frank&#13;
Gasdick, Joseph&#13;
Misenheimer, Charles V.&#13;
P.Y. Shu</text>
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                <elementText elementTextId="128384">
                  <text>&lt;a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en"&gt;In Copyright&lt;/a&gt;</text>
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                  <text>1938-1945</text>
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                <text>Richards, Lewis J., M.D.</text>
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                <text>Lewis "Doc Rich" Richards interview (video and transcript, 1 of 5), 1991</text>
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                <text>Interview of Dr. Lewis Richards by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Dr. Lewis J. Richards, or "Doc Rich" as he was known in the American Volunteer Group (AVG), served as the unit's Flight Surgeon. In this tape, Richards discusses his background in schooling and medical training before working with the AVG, in addition to his motivation in going to China and his journey overseas. </text>
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                    <text>Grand Valley State University
Special Collections &amp; University Archives
RHC-88 Fei Hu Films
Flying Tigers Interviews
Interviewer: Frank Boring
Interviewee: Lewis J. Richards, M.D. (known as “Doc Rich”)
Date of Interview: 05-30-1991
Transcriber: Frank Boring

[TAPE 2]
DOC RICH:

One thing when I was in Toungoo, with reference to the hospital.
We had quite a few boys come down quite ill. They just were sick
and you couldn’t find anything to help for it They broke out in a
mild rash and one day one of the missionary nurses came to visit
us and was in there and saw them and said “oh yes isn’t this a
beautiful case of Dengue fever.” And I said “what?’ but I never let
her know that I didn’t know what Dengue fever was.

DOC RICH:

Here comes another. This is a bad time, coming home from work.

DOC RICH:

Want me to go? One day, I was making rounds at the hospital and
a missionary nurse came in to visit with us and while she was there
she looked over and said “oh, isn’t this a beautiful case of Dengue
fever” and I had been puzzled all along as to what was wrong with
it and it was a beautiful case of Dengue fever and I tell you, if you
have Dengue fever you feel like it’s called break bone fever and
you feel like you’re going to die and you wish you could. That’s
how sick you are and it’s a mosquito borne fever like malaria and
it takes you quite some time to regain your strength.

FRANK BORING:

What did you do to treat it?

�DOC RICH:

We treated it primarily symptomatic. We did give them some
quinine like you do for malaria, but I’m not quite sure that was the
effective thing at the time.

FRANK BORING:

What other kinds of ailments if you will, or accident related cases
did you deal with during the period of time you were at Toungoo?

DOC RICH:

Well a few of the, some of the cases that I dealt with there, we did
have quite a few malaria cases and Dengue fever and then of
course, when you’re living in an area like that where the water
supply is not always the best, we had quite a bit of diarrhea. Other
than that, it uh, they were quite healthy.

FRANK BORING:

What were your quarters like? Did you live with the men or did
you have separate quarters?

DOC RICH:

No, No I lived, when I was, my quarters there, uh I shared the
quarters with men just the same as anyone else. I remember one
time we’d always go to a, before we got up to, to uh, Toungoo,
Bob Prescott would come in and we’d be at the hotel and he’d
come in a little bit on the dark side and he had a pair of British
shoes and they squeaked and they squeaked and they squeaked and
he was, it took him an hour to get his uh, mosquito net tucked in
and I’d swear at him and he would swear right back at me. He was,
that was the routine for Bob.

FRANK BORING:

What other incidents can you recall from that period of time, just
personal observations or incidents that happened that you can think
of?

DOC RICH:

Where are we now at Loiwing? (Still at Toungoo). At Toungoo?
Let me think a minute. Uh, I was thinking of what was the best
ones happened when we were up at Magwe.

FRANK BORING:

Magwe?

�DOC RICH:

While I was at Loiwing, uh, we was, Japanese were coming up the
road and we were told to evacuate and everyone had moved out or
left and Harry Fox and myself were the last ones there, left and we
got a big trailer and loaded the trailer with all the uh, ammunition
for the cannons and uh, he and I started across uh, going up to, uh,
let me think where…

FRANK BORING:

Uh were you introduced to Chennault? Did you meet Chennault at
this time?

DOC RICH:

Oh, yes, we all met Chennault. Yea sure. During this period of
time we all met Chennault and we realized he, ah, was hard
looking, tough, his face was tanned like an Indian. And he was part
Indian. Uh, Churchill once said, that a man with a face like that “‘I’m glad he’s on my side.” I’ll never forget that.

FRANK BORING:

Well, you, oh sorry.

DOC RICH:

While we were at Toungoo, no, that’s wrong. Yea, Toungoo.
While we were at Toungoo, some of the fellows were quite, they
would get quite sick and so on and we didn’t have the hospital
facilities so we sent them over to, cut??, To uh, to Seagraves.

FRANK BORING:

No start from the beginning. Yeah.

DOC RICH:

While we were at Toungoo, sometimes we had to send some of the
men, we couldn’t handle them and we sent them over to see Dr.
Seagraves who had a hospital in that area, a missionary hospital. I
have mentioned in Seagraves book, Burma Surgeon. I
unfortunately never met him, they tried to get Seagraves to go into
the army, American armed forces did and they said they’d make
him a colonel and he said “no, I’d just as soon be an old Kentucky
Colonel.

�FRANK BORING:

What were your impressions of Chennault at this time as a leader?
This is a man that was going to be leading this group. Possibly into
war. What was your impression of the man?

DOC RICH:

Chennault, uh my, my impression of Chennault is that he was a
tough man, a determined man. Uh, that in spite of all the training, I
think the training that the pilots had it was initiated from
themselves how to learn to handle a fast moving plane. It was not a
dog fighting plane. It was a plane that moved fast, it regained their
altitude and drop off. While at Loiwing, one time, we had an air
raid and I’ve seen as high as four Japanese planes going down at
once. The men were well trained but it was primarily that they uh,
initiated how to use the plane.

FRANK BORING:

What were your impressions of Chennault's staff the other people
that you associated with? Whether it was Harvey Greenlaw or any
of these people, anybody that sticks out in your mind?

DOC RICH:

Chennault had a very good staff and you couldn’t help but like
them. Harvey Greenlaw was quite a character and one uh, Saturday
night, uh we were all doing a little drinking and Harvey Greenlaw
got his Tuxedo, wore his tuxedo, but he was always pulling
something like that . He was quite a character. While we were at
Toungoo, one night we were raided and while we were being
raided, uh Greg Boyington and all of us ran for the trenches. Greg
was pretty well inebriated and he fell down and cut himself up so
we took him back into the Loiwing uh, club house and I was
proceeding to sew him up and I didn’t use any anesthesia on him
because he’d had plenty of alcohol and Duke Hedman stood by
there and we’d been playing the piano in ragtime and uh, when
Greg would holler Duke would holler. “Go ahead, do, Doc, go
ahead hurt him, hurt him, but many little incidents like that were
very interesting.

FRANK BORING:

When did you first have to start utilizing your skills as a doctor
other than just dealing Dengue fever and a few of these minor

�things like that? Do you recall the first time that you had a serious
uh, accident or a serious bit of Doctoring to do?
DOC RICH:

Why don’t we, tell about loading up the ammunition, or did I do
that?

FRANK BORING:

Ok?

DOC RICH:

Did I tell about that?

FRANK BORING:

Sure.

DOC RICH:

Harry Fox and I were the last ones to leave Loiwing. We loaded
one trailer up with ammunition for the cannons, got it all up. We
went up to cross a river to go further up in China and uh, the uh,
we had trouble getting across the river. When we got in to, uh, cut,
was it Paoshan or what where the raid was? Yea, Paoshan.

FRANK BORING:

Paoshan is when, uh…

DOC RICH:

When we got in Paoshan, uh, I remember I was out on the fields
and was informed that there been a terrible air raid and in a city it
was almost im… difficult, impossible to get up there thru the
traffic so it was slow by the time I got up there. Unfortunately, one
of the Japs had dropped the bomb right in the middle of that truck
that we had all the ammunition and it went around and looked
around and several of the boys were hurt and Foshee was laying in
the fields with one leg off and part of an arm and these were the
kinds of things we ran, and then the Chinese could be seen lying all
over the street and they, when this air raid was over they carried on
just as if nothing happened.

FRANK BORING:

If we could continue on with the incident with Foshee we
interviewed Bob Locke and Bob is the one that actually brought
Benny Foshee into you to be treated. Do you recall, he described it
as this confusion all around? There was you and a Chinese doctor

�working on people and there was a little boy sitting over in the
corner who had an arm blown off. Do you recall that?
DOC RICH:

I’ll wait a few minutes. What was the name, I’m trying to think of
the name. Shields was it, no the two men…

FRANK BORING:

No, Swartz?

DOC RICH:

Shields and Fauth were hurt quite badly. Fauth had his, if I recall
right, had his hand blown off.

FRANK BORING:

It’s Swartz, Swartz.

DOC RICH:

What did I… Fauth had his arm blown off. William Swartz didn’t
have his…

FRANK BORING:

Swartz was the one that eventually they sent him off to India.

DOC RICH:

India?

FRANK BORING:

India, yeah. At least you’ve been quoted in books as saying that.
You said that the British were responsible really that he should
never have died.

DOC RICH:

Oh, I can’t remember that. I don’t know, whether it Swartz or
Fauth. I’m trying to think, seems to me like Swartz lost his arm
and I don’t… and what happened to Fauth I don’t know. He was
hurt pretty bad.

FRANK BORING:

He was - He died too.

DOC RICH:

Oh, yes.

FRANK BORING:

I think Swartz was the one that was sent off to an Indian Hospital.

DOC RICH:

Both of them.

�FRANK BORING:

Both of them.

DOC RICH:

The uh, one of the bad accidents was after an air raid. In the day
time and I mean late evening. Uh, it was Fauth and Swartz as I
recall. Uh, Fauth lost his arm clear up to his shoulders and it seems
to me that Swartz lost his hand and had his face pretty badly
injured too. Uh, we didn’t have the facilities out in the field to take
care of them and so the British loaded them and took them over to
India. Another incident was Bob Brouk, a pilot and uh, see uh,
shrapnel went off and he was filled with shrapnel and we moved
all the big parts and he said what about the little parts? I says they
won’t hurt. Many people live with a little piece of steel in them, so
we, never, there was nothing more to be done, we did take good
care of him and there was a few Chinese that were terribly hurt but
the Chinese doctors came in and took care of them.

FRANK BORING:

What did you, give us some idea of the facility that you had to
work with. What were the conditions that you were working
under? If you could try and make it as graphic as possible for us to
get a view of what you actually had to work with when somebody
would get hurt like that. I mean, people think that your medical
facility, even an army medical facility and they think you’ve got
medicine and syringes and…

DOC RICH:

Our medical facilities were quite limited. In fact I had my medical
bag and I had a Studebaker, small Studebaker and uh, I had it filled
with medicine and most of my work was done uh, on the running
board of the car. Uh, Charlie Bond came in after a raid and he was
making a victory roll over the field and following him and he was
a little careless then, following him was Jap plane and all I had was
a revolver and I kept trying to shoot at that Bob, that Jap plane and
I saw Charlie Bond bail out and his plane was afire and I got a
Indian, I mean a Chinese coolie to take me up there and we located
him and he was severely burned uh, we didn’t have much for
anesthesia, we give him a shot of morphine and then we went

�ahead and treated him with a for burns which was rather crude at
that time but fortunately, he came out without any scaring
whatsoever.
DOC RICH:

Now let me think a minute, uh I uh, failed to mention that I made
the entire trip from Burma up the Burma Road, uh, into Loiwing.
Ah, it was, talk about a snaky road, uh, the curves were so sharp
that the uh, Chinese pilots, uh, uh, truck drivers would have to
back up and take two or three times or many time to make the turn.
As we went up, we would stop and rest of course and uh, stop and
eat because the Chinese would set up little restaurants along the
way and we would eat the food there. I came up with Bob Locke
and I took all the precautions in the world to keep from getting
malaria and if a mosquito is anywhere around he’ll find me. Bob
Locke was absolutely, never slept under a net. Brought a tiger with
him and he never got one mosquito bite. So there’s something
about the odor of the body that will attract certain insects. Ants
will attracted by some people’s perspiration, mosquitos by others
and so on. But it was quite an interesting trip. Bob Locke and I was
paralled [?] all the way up. Cut. Did Bob mention that? Another
thing that happened once too. Steve Kustay? Uh, I think he was
Armorer, I’m not sure. He liked his booze. And they called me one
night. That Steve had turned the jeep over and was underneath the
jeep. And I got up and went out there and I found it and the jeep
was upside down on Steve Kustay. We turned the jeep over and
Steve wasn’t hurt a bit and he says thanks you guys for coming
helping me out. Cut. Ha, Ha, Ha, I never will forget. I could have
killed him. He was drunker than a goat.

FRANK BORING:

One of the things we are trying to get is that spontaneity, laughing
I could have killed him. Don’t cut. In the future let it go. That’s
what we want to get.

DOC RICH:

Let me see what else. There was another one too. Ah, there’s
another incident too, I forget uh, uh, just what city we were in, but
we were out, camping out at the airport and uh, while we were

�there. Cut. While we were there, let me see, we had a tent out in
the desert and uh, I stripped off one day and was laying there on
the cot getting sunshine, and course angelic Prescott got all the
fellows together and they went out and gathered up all…
FRANK BORING:

Before you go through, give us a sense of where it is.

DOC RICH:

Somewhere in the desert of China, we were out in the uh, uh,
desert and had a little tent set up and I decided to strip off my
clothes and get a sunshine. Of course angelic Bob Prescott got the
fellows together and set the coolies out to get some watermelons
and they came back with these watermelons and I was asleep and
they start to squeezing them all over me and then the flies you
know and I got up and I’d go after one and the other guy would get
back of me and hit me with a watermelon and I turned around to
get him and they like to run me crazy but geez they thought that
that was great sport. Truthfully I didn’t quite enjoy it at the time
but I look at, back now with much laughter.

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Christopher, Frank&#13;
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Misenheimer, Charles V.&#13;
P.Y. Shu</text>
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                    <text>Grand Valley State University
Special Collections &amp; University Archives
RHC-88 Fei Hu Films
Flying Tigers Interviews
Interviewer: Frank Boring
Interviewee: Lewis J. Richards, M.D. (known as “Doc Rich”)
Date of Interview: 05-30-1991
Transcriber: Frank Boring

[TAPE 3]
DOC RICH:

One instance that I forgot to mention coming up the Burma road, I
had a little Studebaker, and Bob Locke had a jeep and he had a
tiger in the jeep with him and I would have nothing to do with the
tiger uh, but uh, he had a lot of fun with it and whenever the
natives would try to steal stuff out of his truck the tiger was a very
effective deterrent. Uh, also too, while we were at Paoshan, and we
lost uh, uh, I don’t know if it was Faust or what, we were at
Paoshan or not, we lost cut, who was the one of the two men? Oh,
Fauth and Swartz, Swartz. We lost Fauth and Swartz, uh and I was
staying up most of the night, uh to attend to them what little I
could because we didn’t have much in my medical bag. Uh, uh, the
men were to take turns and to call me if they needed something
and all of a sudden they called me and I went over there and
checked some of the fellows and Bob Prescott said that, uh Doc.
there’s, I think one of these coolies are dead. I says “OK” so I went
over there and then we went to his bunk and they had double deck
bunks and he was up on the second bunk, and the guy got out. It
was a Gurkha guard and he saluted me and mentioned in Gurkha
language uh, about the man in the bed and I reached over and the
man was cold, free.., icy cold and I said well the man is dead and
they interpreted to him. The man saluted again and got back up and
got back in bed. Uh, And uh, Bob Prescott says, Doc, Doc, look
doc, he’s getting back into bed. I says yes I know. He said what’s
the matter with him? I said, hell, Bob he slept with he’s sleepy.

�And he called me every dirty name in the world. Told me how
merciless I was. Cut. Now let me think what else, couldn’t leave
that one out. Another incident, want me to start on. Another
incident that I failed to mention, someone in the night had got from
an air raid had got cut and we proceeded to sew him up and was all
we had was a flash light and I thought Moose Moss was holding
the flash light and I says after a while he couldn’t hold the flash
light still. I says Moose, oh no, it was Prescott holding the
flashlight and after a while he wasn’t holding it still. I says dammit
hold that flashlight so I can see. And it kept getting worse and I
says Moose quit goosing Bob Prescott and all of a sudden thug
Bob was holding the flashlight and he fainted. Cut. I never will
forget that.
FRANK BORING:

Just let it go. We’ll cut it. Don’t worry about it.

DOC RICH:

Let me think a few minutes.

FRANK BORING:

No I mean don’t say the cut. Because your comments after you say
cut are usually just as good as the story itself, so…

DOC RICH:

As far as the AVG medical supplies why we had ample drugs of all
kinds, and plenty of it. Uh, we had a pretty good little set up at the
hospital to treat them in and most of the stuff was done at local
anesthesia and as I’ve said, if there was any, as we’ve said if there
were any accidents they were terminal. Other than that it was
malaria, Dengue fever, ah, usual diarrhea and the usual run of the
mill of things that you could take care of even at home if you had
to.

FRANK BORING:

OK.

DOC RICH:

Cut if you want to, because I can’t think of it now.

�FRANK BORING:

No, that was fine. What about in the field though? Away from the
hospital what kind of conditions were you operating under in the
field?

DOC RICH:

Once I was away from the hospital, the operating conditions were
perfectly ideal. I had the medicines and my little Studebaker and I
had my medical box and that was the sum total of all of it. Do you
want to cut it? No, no wait a minute, let me, I got to think about
this stuff.

FRANK BORING:

Ok.

DOC RICH:

You ready? We went up to Kunming and when I was up at
Kunming, I was setting on the line with the ambulance for all the
uh, planes to take off and anything that happened or the fellows
didn’t feel good, we’d take care of them. And all of them had
trouble with their ears from flying and different things. Colonel
Scott came up to visit and he would fly his airplane back and forth
but he would never go with a group. He made the remarks, boys
I’m going to make go out here with a flight and a run and so he
was going to go the next morning. He never showed up till noon
and he says gentlemen I’m sorry I overslept. He says, don’t worry
we’re just getting ready to take off. We were fogged in and he
would not go. Scott used to get in his airplane and fly around as a
lone, loner and he would tell what he saw and who he shot down.
The boys, the armour boys questioned very much, so they taped up
the end of the cannons and when he came back and said what he
shot down, the guns had not been fired. Cut it off. Let me think a
minute.

FRANK BORING:

Doc don’t worry about…

DOC RICH:

I remember one incident Moose Moss was using the modern toilets
we had which was a trench. A straddle trench and he sent down
and says have doc come up in a hurry. I says what happened? He
says emergency. I says what's the emergency? While he was on the

�straddle trench, a bee stung him on the dong and he says well that’s
not too important and he says the hell it isn’t tell him to get up here
and take the sting out of this but don’t take the swelling out of it.
Cut it off.
FRANK BORING:

We’re going to see Moose next week. We’ll say hello for you.

DOC RICH:

The Chinese personnel was taken care of by the Chinese doctors
while I was there. I did not take care of many of the Chinese. We
referred them over because there’s a language barrier too.

FRANK BORING:

Did you have any contact with the Chinese doctors at all do you
have any evaluation of their skills?

DOC RICH:

I had very little contact with them. They kept us busy at all times.
One incident that did happen though, uh when I was at Kunming.
About Sam Prevo the orthopedist was down at Toungoo and they
called me and I was taking care of the line at, uh Kunming and
sentry said we’re going to send you down to the uh, to the uh, front
to relieve Sam Prevo. I said how come? They said Sam’s drinking
too much. So on the way down to there, we they had a pilot and
Three Star Hennessy used to fly the plane and on the way down
Hennessy was not quite sure where he was whether south or north
of Toungoo. I said Hennessy we’re north of Toungoo. He said how
do you know? I said North of Toungoo there’s only one railroad
track. South of Toungoo there’s two railroad tracks and if we went
in to make our landing, the whole airfield was disheveled. They
had just made a bombing raid and Sam ran out to get in the plane,
and they told us to get under cover and Hennessy came back with
Sam. And I spent the, that’s when I started staying down there,
made a trip up the Burma Road. Tom, ah, Hennessy was,
remembers that and he was so grateful, cause I know he was lost.

FRANK BORING:

Did you meet any Chinese? You heard about Pearl Harbor?

�DOC RICH:

Another incident on December the 8th, we were at Toungoo and
we heard, woke up the next morning and heard that Pearl Harbor
had been bombed. All night long airplanes were flying over our
area and we were so well camouflaged that they couldn’t find us. If
they had we’d of all been destroyed. I think the uh, good Lord had
his hand around us then.

FRANK BORING:

What was your personal reaction to the Pearl Harbor event
knowing that America now was at war and you were right in the
front lines?

DOC RICH:

Well, my personal reaction just when all this happened did not
disturb me. They sent uh, uh Sam Prevo down to Rangoon and uh,
one of our first our first battle front down there - one of our fine
men who I cannot recall was lost there. I can’t recall his name uh,
but it didn’t disturb me. I respected it the excitement and the
challenge so what I take life as it comes.

DOC RICH:

This time, there was another incident. The uh, Shilling,
Mangleburg and I can’t think of the other pilot’s name just right
off. We were flying up from uh, Toungoo up north and of course
they put on a big show and they ran out of gas before they got up
there. Uh these men had to crash land and I was sent down at
Christmas time to uh, Christy [?] to go down there and he and I
went down to locate them and I forget the little town way up in the
hills. And on the way down I was driving the truck like mad and
the roads were terrible Christy says Doc, if you don’t go slower
this truck won’t hold out. Well we kept on going and we got down
there and we then we couldn’t... it was inland so we parked the car
and we went inland, walked inland and as we walked inland we
had to stay overnight at some of these fancy hotels which was
nothing but a board to lay on and we didn’t have any blankets. So
as we went on in to the area and walked out always we had people,
Chinese that were coming into the market in this little country
town who’d bring us messages. And they’d located Shilling and
uh, I think it was, Mangleburg was killed and the other fellow was

�living and as we stood there it was interesting, the large number of
people who went by men and women. I had the man that was with
me Christy Bent to count the people that went by and then when I
picked out one with a goiter I’d say now let’s start counting over
again. And the average, we picked out great big, large goiters and
about 10 percent about every 10 we’d find one with a goiter that
came down the hills. That was most impressive. When finally we,
they brought Shilling in and he came in riding on one of these
shoulder things that the men carried, riding like a king. And
Shilling hadn’t eaten very much, so we went to eat and you won’t
believe this but Shilling ate one dozen eggs, that’s how hungry he
was. Mangleburg was killed and we waited for the other men and
we took them back to uh, uh, Kunming and Mangleburg we had,
had an air raid one night and they had no lights for them to light in,
the fellows were up and so they turned all the automobile lights on
and Mass uh, uh, can’t think of the other man’s name, it misses me
right now but while he was sitting there in the car, he went to sleep
and one of the pilots came in and was blinded by the lights and ran
into this car that he was in and the propeller decapitated him. Uh,
that was sad.
FRANK BORING:

Why don’t we do that again, but this time now you know that it’s
Pete Wright and its Ken Merritt that’s in the car so…

DOC RICH:

After we gathered up Shilling and his three men we returned to our
base and there was a night flight uh, Ken Merritt, there was no
lights and we had to illuminate the field with automobile lights and
uh, Ken Merritt was setting in the car, one of the cars, went to
sleep and Pete Wright came in for the landing and was blinded by
the light from the cars and it’s a real tragedy, his plane ran into the
other car and decapitated Ken Merritt. It was really a sad,
unfortunate thing, but that was part of the game. I oughta write that
up, shouldn’t I?

�FRANK BORING:

After Pearl Harbor is what we’re talking about, after Christmas
were you transferred around or were you stationed in Kunming?
What happened after Pearl Harbor?

DOC RICH:

Right after Pearl Harbor we moved up to Kunming.

FRANK BORING:

You have your glasses on.

DOC RICH:

Now, where was I?

FRANK BORING:

Um, What did Chennault ask of you to do were you stationed in
Kunming or were you sent around?

DOC RICH:

After Pearl Harbor, we’d all moved up to Kunming and uh, as I
told you before, related an incidence of uh, uh, guided my poor,
copilot. and many other incidents and I was sent down to the front
to relieve Prescott and I was pushed around and also one time I had
to go up to Chungking uh, to stay up there for a while to take care
of a detached group there. Uh, it was quite interesting, but I didn’t
stay up there too long and then they moved me on. Another thing
that was interesting, going up the Kunming river, there was a man
that gathered up all the feces from these, the boat and would ship
the feces up the river and would sell it to the, to the uh, natives
carried it on their shoulder pole to go out to fertilize their…
fertilize their plants. And so he had a dignified name of being the
shit king of Kunming.

FRANK BORING:

You had commented that they should have been able to live, they
should have survived. Do you recall that?

DOC RICH:

I don’t recall that and if I did, uh, uh, Swartz and Faust were sent
down to India and uh, the uh, somewhere the statement came out
that

FRANK BORING:

He’s talking as if he’s talking to the camera. Ok go ahead.

�DOC RICH:

Somewhere along the line the, uh statement came out that I felt
that there were men who should have survived. I do not recall
making that statement however, it is possible. Uh, Uh, I do not
think the treatment in India, although they are good Doctors and so
on, good hospitals, having lived in India since then, uh, sometimes
I question their judgements. There is an arrogance about the Indian
doctors that disturbs me. They are well trained and their capable,
but there is an arrogance that disturbs me. Other than that, right
off, I don’t recall making a statement however it’s very possible
that I did.

FRANK BORING:

Do you recall the incident in which Benny Foshee was injured?
Bob Locke brought him in to you there was other Chinese doctors
in the area treating Chinese and Benny Foshee was brought in.

DOC RICH:

Benny Foshee was not brought in to me as I recall uh, after the
bombing because I went up and made a survey and Benny Foshee
was laying in the compound and one, as I recall one arm totally
blown off and one foot. I did not treat Benny Foshee, he didn’t live
that long, he was killed instantly in a bombing raid.

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P.Y. Shu</text>
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                    <text>Grand Valley State University
Special Collections &amp; University Archives
RHC-88 Fei Hu Films
Flying Tigers Interviews
Interviewer: Frank Boring
Interviewee: Lewis J. Richards, M.D. (known as “Doc Rich”)
Date of Interview: 05-30-1991
Transcriber: Frank Boring

[TAPE 4]
DOC RICH:

You know Pappy set one of those airplanes down in a rice field
and he did it deliberate. I don’t know whether you know it or not, I
probably shouldn’t put it in but he did it deliberate. You ask some
of the ground men and they’ll tell you. He was not the hero he’s
supposed to be. But, you get a columnist to write stuff up you
know, he can glorify sin.

FRANK BORING:

According to what we’ve read there was a time you told Boyington
he better stop drinking or it would kill him. Do you recall that?

DOC RICH:

I don’t re...ah, ah, at one time, I think some of the pilots did drink
too much and Boyington was the epitome of it. And I cautioned
him to quit drinking but, uh…

DOC RICH:

Ah, I recall some of the pilots, and after all it’s quite
understandable that the pilots would drink heavy after a strenuous
day of fighting they had to have some let down. At that time liquor
was plentiful and uh, it was a relaxation but Boyington oh, he
drank far in excess and I cautioned him repeatedly but trying to tell
a man that he’s an alcoholic, whooo I can handle it, I’m not
drinking too much, but that was one of his weaknesses.

�FRANK BORING:

Do you recall any incidents that you remember distinctly about
Boyington and his drinking whether it was a fight or any incident
that stuck out in your mind?

DOC RICH:

No.

FRANK BORING:

Do you recall Bert Christman?

DOC RICH:

There was a man by name of Bert Christman and I don’t recall him
and I just don’t know what’s happened to him. Uh, a nice fellow, I
just don’t recall Bert Christman at all.

FRANK BORING:

You mentioned Brouk?

DOC RICH:

Um, Brouk was a pilot, no, I take it back Brouk was a ground crew
man. He got shot up with buck shrapnel. I don’t know when he
may have been a pilot at that time. I don’t think so, but anyway
there was shrapnel all through him and we went ahead and took
most of the big pieces of shrapnel out and there was a lot of little
pieces and he says well How about taking them out and I says no
way, I’d have to butcher you .I says you’ll live with them they
won’t hurt you you’ll be a man of iron afterwards.

DOC RICH:

One of the things about Charlie Bond as I recall after he was
burned. We didn’t have the modern experience at that time that we
do in burn treatment and so we, uh, Jepson violet which is the,
which is a dye that we painted these burned areas out with and it
seemed to keep down infection and surprisingly he came out
practically with no scars at all.

FRANK BORING:

Describe being bombed, as in the airplanes shooting, perhaps even
a [?] shot or one of the more violent episodes.

DOC RICH:

Several times we were bombed and there’s big blockbusters that
scare you to death. We made a run one night for the trenches and
uh, uh, I can’t recall the man’s name just now uh, he was with us

�uh, he uh we made a run for the trenches and I got in the trench
and he couldn’t find it and finally he got in there. He says next
time they’ll never catch me on the ground. I’ll be in the air, I’m
safer. Another time, I was in uh, uh, oh…
FRANK BORING:

Wasn’t it Black Mac McGarry?

DOC RICH:

Black Mac McGarry.

DOC RICH:

One time, we were, uh, there was a bombing raid and Black Mac
McGarry, a pilot was there with us and they were dropping the
bombs and boy we had to run for it and he didn’t know, I said
follow me I’ll find the trench and I found the trench and he came
running and actually went clear over the trench. He finally came
back and got in the trench with me and after the jing bow was over
he made the remark you’ll never find me on the ground again, I’ll
be up in the air it’s safer. There’s another incidence when we were
at uh, I can’t think of the name of the town right off. We was out in
the desert and uh, there was an air raid coming and we had to run
for it. And it was a little British sergeant or corporal with me and
we were running hard to get to a culvert uh we finally got in the
culvert and on the way down there though I looked back over my
shoulder and here came a Jap plane strafing and he was about fifty
maybe twenty five yards to our left of us and you could see the
bullets hitting the ground and kicking up the sand from the desert.
If he’d been on course we would have had it. When we got there
we climbed into the culvert and I happened to get in there first and
he came in last and I said let’s get out of here now that it’s over
and I like to never got him out of there. I talked to him I says we
have to get out of here cause all these trucks are lined up over here
and that’s the first thing they are going to strafe and we’re going
get it. Finally I got him out. That was a little hazardous event.
Disturbed me, I mean it made you think. But we didn’t have time
to think. Our thinking wasn’t in our legs it was in our savior.

FRANK BORING:

Do you recall the bombing of Paoshan?

�DOC RICH:

That’s where Benny Foshee was killed, I think, yes.

DOC RICH:

I told you uh, when we were in Paoshan the Japs came over and
bombed Paoshan and they, as I related to you before about the
truck load of ammunition, they put a bomb right through it and that
was also true in the compound out in the open part of it where
Benny Foshee was killed.

FRANK BORING:

What were you doing while the bombing was going on?

DOC RICH:

While the bombing was going on, I was out on the air strip.

DOC RICH:

When we were at the bombing of Paoshan I was always given the
duty of being on the airplane, air strip. And as soon as we heard
that uh, what had happened, it took quite a while to get thru the
traffic on these narrow roads between these rice paddies to get
back to the base and of course all of our ammunition was blown up
and Benny Foshee was gone.

FRANK BORING:

Could you describe for us from the perspective of the air field,
watching the battle the Japanese fighters against the tigers and
watching the Japanese get shot down?

DOC RICH:

I recall one incident when I was on the on the line and the Japs
were making a raid and quite a few of them and uh, the uh, fellows
were in their P-40’s and they were diving on them and I remember
one instance 4, I saw 4 Japanese planes go down at once. All in
flames, that was quite a spectacle. Another incident I recall too, is
when uh, the man setting in the uh, the uh, in the air no, no when
they were in training, every time Conant came in, he wrecked the
plane. He just couldn’t handle the P-40's. They put him in another
plane and made him go up right away and they kept wrecking he
wrecked three planes and finally they gave up on him. But Buster
Keeton was there with me and he was standing there and he says
boy oh, boy, oh boy if Conant came in I came out here if

�somebody had just had a camera. I said Bus what the hell’s
hanging around your neck. And he had his camera hanging there.
He’s never forgotten that and he’s never forgiven me. Uh, I always
called Buster Keeton, I had a nice little nickname for him I called
him lard in a can.
DOC RICH:

Well this was interesting, it was interesting, you know. He says
boy if someone had just had a camera and he came out there with
his camera especially to catch him and he performed, he ruined the
plane and I says what the hell’s hanging around your neck.

DOC RICH:

I forget why it was. He was a little heavy in the butt. And I, I just I
had a nickname for all of them.

FRANK BORING:

What were some of the nicknames you had for the guys?

DOC RICH:

Well, I uh, [?] called Benny Foshee baldy or cue ball cause he was
totally bald and uh, uh, they had different names I can’t recall them
right now.

DOC RICH:

There was a man by the name of Skip Adair that was a sort of a
right hand man to Harvey Greenlaw and to the general. He was a
great big massive fellow. I could never see just a lot what Skip did.
I thought probably he was more sort of a PR man and did a lot of
the little runnings for the general, lot of leg work. Other than that I
was not very familiar with Skip.

FRANK BORING:

How about Boatner Carney?

DOC RICH:

There was a man by the name of Boatner Carney but I just can’t
recall all these incidents. He was quite a character too.

DOC RICH:

There was smuggling done by many of the pilots and the
smuggling in China at that time was acceptable and it still is. The
only thing that’s unacceptable if you get caught. That’s your
stupidity and of course, I think they smuggled a little bit and some

�of them would take CNAC and up there and change it with the
market but uh, that’s life in the Orient and that’s an acceptable part
of it.
DOC RICH:

No they flew us up to, I was flown up to Ch… Chunking I didn’t
drive up there. Big driving I did was coming up the Burma Road
from Rangoon to Loiwing.

DOC RICH:

No.

DOC RICH:

Do you really want that? Olga Greenlaw was a beautiful lady. Uh,
if I think right she was part Russian, uh, luscious, attractive, sexy
and uh, I’m not sure about the rest of her activities. But it’s been
rumored and everyone has their suspicion.

DOC RICH:

Better not. May I ask what they said?

DOC RICH:

Olga Greenlaw. Another incident about Olga Greenlaw she’s a
beautiful lady, sexy, attractive, uh, hard to resist and I’m sure she
trifled a lot on Harvey Greenlaw and uh, there’s no, it’s just purely
rumor but I’m sure that there was indulgence by numerous pilots in
fact I recall once I was called over to see her and she was sick and
I went over to her and here she had, all she had on was a night
gown and you could see clear thru. But cautious me, I know better.
That really struck me, I never forgot it. Cause there’s all for the
asking, but no thank you.

FRANK BORING:

When did you first start hearing rumors about the induction of the
AVG in to the Army?

DOC RICH:

Towards the termination there was Ok. Toward the termination of
our uh, uh, service uh, one of the generals came down and he was
not a, I think it was Bissell if I recall right. It was not popular at all
with uh, Chennault. They were at conflict. But they were going to
show us you are going to get in the army. If you don’t go in the
army, we’ll draft you when we get to the States and quite a few of

�the fellows went in then. The others, uh I was with a group of
fellows who chose to go home. When I got to the other side of
India I got a call from CNAC Charlie Sharp and asking me to uh,
come down to see if I would take a job as a medical director with
Chinese National Aviation Corp. which was a subdivision of pan
America. And Mickey Mickelson and I were roommates and
Mickey he said he was going down and insisted that I come. I said
the men had asked if they could get me. They were quite conscious
of wanting medical care. And I talked to Charlie Sharp and told
him I said well Charlie, I’ve got my fare paid on a ship. I says,
suppose I come down for an interview and I don’t like you and you
don’t like me, what’s going to happen? He said we’ll see that you
get home, and I turned to Mickey and said what’ll you do? And he
said let’s go down and we went down and joined up with CNAC
and I became their medical director and unfortunately Mickey
Mickelson was lost in the uh, flying over the hump.

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Christopher, Frank&#13;
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Misenheimer, Charles V.&#13;
P.Y. Shu</text>
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                    <text>Grand Valley State University
Special Collections &amp; University Archives
RHC-88 Fei Hu Films
Flying Tigers Interviews
Interviewer: Frank Boring
Interviewee: Lewis J. Richards, M.D. (known as “Doc Rich”)
Date of Interview: 05-30-1991
Transcriber: Frank Boring

[TAPE 5]
FRANK BORING:

Why would you resist Olga Greenlaw?

DOC RICH:

When I was asked by Harvey Greenlaw to go over to see Olga
Greenlaw and she was ill. I went over and she wasn’t ill that was
just a come on or an invitation and yea a man could weaken but
that would have been a stupid maneuver especially in my position.
Pilots that’s a little different.

FRANK BORING:

I wonder if you could repeat the comments about Stillwell and his
walking out of the jungle.

DOC RICH:

Uh, Bissell, General Bill Bissell, I did not meet him. He did
threaten the men and coerce them to go into the army then and but
Stillwell decided he would walk out uh, so he walked out with the
nurses from the Burma uh, road uh doctor. Uh to me that was
asinine because here we have a man that the government has much
money invested in and as a general he could have been of great
service. Why he would do this I don’t know, maybe he was tired of
the service and he wanted to get out .Maybe he wanted to make a
name for himself and I’m sure a lot of people thought that was
great but I thought it was the exemplification of stupidity.

DOC RICH:

No, I just can’t recall it at all.

�DOC RICH:

Chennault and I were not too close. He was stubborn and I’m not
exactly soft but I never was very close to uh, Chennault however,
uh, Dr. Gentry who was all army and I was outspoken and I think,
when I stop and think of it at this instant, I wouldn’t be surprised if
Gentry who was probably a roadblock keeping me at a distance.

DOC RICH:

Well I’m pretty well outspoken, in fact uh, it’s my trait. Uh, I play
no cards under the table, I, I straight forward and I , I probably
wouldn’t make a good diplomat., but again on the other hand I
think maybe I could win votes by my candid [?]. And people even
today say, well you may not like Dr. Richards you sure know
where you stand.

DOC RICH:

Well the last months with the AVG, was ah, I couldn’t see a great
deal of change between that and the other months. I had a job to do
and I went to work every morning and was uh, I never missed a
sick call or anything else with one exception. I did get Dengue
fever after I left there. But, uh, I, I couldn’t see any great deal of
difference. The morale of the men was high, uh P. Green and Bob
Prescott’s used that as an example to get a circumcised. And I
always said that the purpose of that was not so much to get
circumcised. I thought that perhaps they were just tired of flying or
didn’t want to fly anymore. This is my candid opinion.

DOC RICH:

Well while I was there, as far as there being big obstacles, uh, with
AVG and the lack of the uh, the ideal, uh, hospitalization. I could
not see them as uh, an obstacle. I look at it as to make do with what
you can. And that’s the way I operated.

DOC RICH:

They were two fine nurses. Uh, Red Petach was a hard worker. Uh,
she was a workhorse. The other one was a may, was head nurse
and she felt that. And the same as Gentry - was the leading doctor I’m in charge and all too much military. But when it came to the
workhorse, Red was the one.

DOC RICH:

None

�DOC RICH:

We had a nice group of (hold on, get settled and comfortable) uh,
uh, uh, medical corps men were good men. In fact they were
excellent. Viverette was a quiet fellow. He knew a lot of things that
went on and he would be a very good one for you to interview. Uh,
he’s close lipped, he kept his mouth shut. Uh, the uh, we, uh, uh,
had two or three others there uh, but Robert Gallagher was
excellent and he was a top chiro man of the bunch. And he came
back and studied medicine and graduated. We also had uh, uh, Carl
Brown did you know of him? And Carl Brown has since come
back. He was a good pilot. He was a brain. He’s got his nose in the
book all the time. He reads incessantly. He came back. He studied
medicine. He also became an anesthesiologist. He is now a
neurologist. And he also took up the law and he has a law degree.
And he is a brain.

DOC RICH:

Now, or afterwards?

FRANK BORING:

Looking at it from your perspective now. Looking back.

DOC RICH:

The AVG was an unusual group. (Go ahead) The AVG group was
an unusual group. They were renegades of course. Uh, probably
many of us were dissatisfied in the service and that’s the reason
they were there. Boyington was the only service man that was
released and he was released because they couldn’t handle him.
Uh, other than that, these men did an excellent job. Surprisingly,
it’s ah, it’s ah, unbelievable the high rank and the station of life
that they have taken. Charlie Holder became a judge that handled
the Manson case. Uh, Prescott, Bob Prescott put in the flying Tiger
Freight Line. Uh, Duke Hedman, was the only man I know of that
was chief pilot of three different airlines. Uh, many of them
became uh, airline pilots for CNAC no not CNAC for commercial
airlines in the states. I have to say one thing, their achievement was
great. Their record after, after they was in the service is something
to be proud of.

�DOC RICH:

In terms of Chinese history, the AVG, I think has been paid the
highest tribute of any fighter group there. I’m sure that if it hadn’t
been for the AVG, China would have fallen. Had the uh, Japs had
knowledge of the small group that was there, they could have come
in and destroyed us. They did not have the knowledge. Uh, the
great credit that belongs to these men as the pilots was from their
own ability to handle a P40. And also too, I have to give credit to
the radio service. I think that we do not give enough credit to them.
Bill Williams was in charge of it. And they always knew which
direction the Japs were coming in to make a raid. And how did
they know it? Because of the underground Chinese with their
radios would see the planes coming back way back. Would call in
ahead. And that is another factor that contributes greatly to success
and I think have not been given the credit they should have. It was
remarkable. Uh, the only, Chi… uh, the Japanese could never
figure out how did it and once they got wise they came in and went
and then turned off course and went somewhere else and they got
thru that time. But they only got thru the one time.

DOC RICH:

During the time of the AVG, I think I, my personal
accomplishment, I gave much to the men, I helped them. I enjoyed
the uh, the excitement. Uh, I think uh, probably if I’d of come back
and joined the army I would have been ahead. I’d of probably been
dead. But I would have probably been ahead because I would have
got a good pension. And none of us got any pensions. Uh, Uh, I
still would have probably done the same thing, but we can all look
back and see different roads that we could have and should have
taken. But other than that, it was an adventure, it was an
experience. Uh, I get ah, ah, a lot of glory and honor but ah, that
means nothing to me, I don’t need boosting.

DOC RICH:

Well, I’m proud of it. Being called a Flying Tiger, uh, I’m quite
proud of it. Uh, uh, it was a group that was unusual. Even
Churchill made the remark and if the Flying Tigers had not been
there, China would have fallen. There’s no doubt in my mind about
it. Uh, I’ve enjoyed every bit of it. The excitement, the challenge

�and everything else. I do think uh, that uh, we paid a price by
losing, not getting a pension. But after all, we it was our choice, we
were a bunch of renegades and that’s what you have to do.
FRANK BORING:

That was excellent.

DOC RICH:

Was it really? How did it compare?

�</text>
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P.Y. Shu</text>
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                    <text>Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project
Ray Richardson
(1:40:43)
Background Information (00:59)
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Born November 13th 1920 in Winterfield Township, Michigan. (1:00)
Served in the U.S. Navy Reserve and served as a lieutenant junior grade(2:00)
He attended grade School in Hazel Park, Michigan. (2:46)
His family moved to Marion, Michigan where he attended school through the 7th grade. (3:17)
He attended Marion High School. (3:56)
He was the president of his class all 4 years of high school. (4:10)
He graduated in 1938. (4:20)
His father worked for General Motors, and then became a farmer during the Depression. (4:50)
He attended College after high school at Central Michigan College in Mount Pleasant. He
graduated in 1942. (5:20)
He has 1 brother and 3 sisters. (6:03)
The home he lived in at the time of this interview (August 2011) Ray built himself. (7:22)
He took music lessons on the banjo as a child. He and his brother would play in square dances
for entertainment. (8:00)
All through high school and college he and his brother played in a dance band to help make
money. (8:53)
He worked in a bomber plant for 1 summer in Ypsilanti, Michigan. (9:29)
As his draft number approached, Ray enlisted in the Navy before he was drafted in November of
1942. (9:50)
He joined the U.S. Naval Reserves. (11:10)
He was then sent to New Philadelphia, Ohio, to take flight training. (11:26)

Basic Training (11:30)
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The program was 6-8 weeks. Upon completing the course he was rewarded his flight license.
(11:56)
After receiving his license he returned home until January 1943. he was then called into active
duty and told to take pre-flight training. (13:26)
Pre flight training was given at the University of Iowa. Here there was only physical training and
school work. This was approx 6 weeks. (13:55)
He was a cadet all though training. (14:25)
He does not recall to many men from his military career. (16:15)
He was then sent to Pensacola Naval Station. Here he had primary training. (16:50)
After completing primary training he was assigned to Bronson, Iowa. (17:10)
A man could not be married and be in the cadet program. (18:05)
He completed his training in January of 1944. (19:00)
At Bronson he learned how to fly much larger aircraft and use other forms of navigation. (21:15)
He also had many classes on how to identify German and Japanese aircraft. (21:57)

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Aboard the PBY Catalina (which Ray flew) there was a pilot, a copilot, a navigator, and engineer,
a gunner, and a radio man. (22:17)
His education in college meant he was older than most cadets and more educated. This led to
Ray being placed in more leadership positions. (23:56)
He was commissioned into the Navy in January of 1944. (25:10)

Service as an Instructor (25:44)
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After graduating, Ray was sent to Atlanta, Georgia, for a short class on instrument flying. Then
he was sent back to Whiting Field Naval Air Station as an instructor. (25:50)
He was married in January of 1944 in Michigan. (26:30)
His wife came down to Pensacola in June of 1944 after completing his training. (28:00)
He spent about 8 months as an instructor in instrument flying before he was transferred over to
the Seaplane base at Pensacola. (28:38)
The instructors were required to land the plane at night before instructing at the seaplane base
to ensure they can do it. One of the aircrafts crash-landed on a beach during theses exercises.
(29:20)
While testing a cadet an aircraft continuously stalled because it had been tampered with.
(32:19)
After serving as flight instructors, the men were moved out onto fleets. (34:16)
The day that Ray left for his fleet was VJ day (August 14th 1945.) (35:12)
In order for Ray to continue his military career he needed to be in the Navy not the Naval
Reserve. He chose to be discharged. (35:50)
He was discharged in late summer of 1945. (36:36)
Instructors had the responsibility of patrolling certain portions of the gulf where cadets would
“challenge” or test them on what flags to run up to communicate with the aircraft. (37:05)
An instructor was assigned several cadets whom he saw through sea training. (39:24)
When finding that a cadet was not in the area of the plane he designated them too, Ray gave
them one strike before reporting them. (41:20)
The PBY Catalina was used for air sea rescue and look outs after the war. (42:11)
During the war the Black Cats (PBY Catalina) would bomb sea targets. (42:33)

Life after Service (43:48)
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

He looked to see if there were any flying jobs available after exiting the Navy.(43:50)
Both he and his wife received teaching jobs in Alpena, Michigan, in 1947. His wife taught
Spanish and English at the high school. (44:27)
A representative form the FBI came to Alpena Michigan looking for recruits. Ray was accepted
into the FBI and called up on July 7th of 1947. (45:30)

Service in the FBI (45:50)
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His new agent training was at Quantico, Virginia. It lasted 3 months. (46:59)
After completing training he was assigned to Portland, Oregon. (47:25)

�
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He was assigned, like other new agents, on a “road trip” where he recruited and tracked
fugitives. (49:10)
He tracked and caught a man involved in a deserter case. (51:53)
He bought a felt hat because (FBI Director J. Edgar) Hoover at the time wanted all the FBI agents
to have felt hats. (54:05)
After 8 months in Portland he was transferred to Seattle, Washington, where he spent about 8
years before being transferred to Detroit. (54:50)
Ray requested a resident agency after arriving in Detroit. He was sent to Grand Rapids, Michigan
where he spent 8 years. (55:35)
The Resident Agency in Grand Rapids Michigan was in the Post Office. (56:25)
He arrived in Grand Rapids Michigan in 1960 and left in 1968. (57:50)
In the summer of 1968 Ray was transferred to Marquette, Michigan. (59:09)
While in Grand Rapids, Michigan he recalls there was a bank robbery where the perpetrator was
dressed as Santa Claus. (1:01:14)
He retired from the FBI in May of 1973. (1:02:29)
He retired to Winterfield Township. (1:03:33)

Life after Retirement (1:04:23)
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He served as the township supervisor for Winterfield Township for approx. 10 years. (1:04:23)
He aided in zoning the township as well as repairing the township hall. (1:05:30)
As Supervisor, Ray had to oversee township assessments. (1:07:14)
He retightened as supervisor after his wife retired (approx 1984). (1:07:56)

Thoughts on Service(1:08:15)
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He did not keep in contact with fellow soldiers after service. (1:08:20)
After his father was wounded in a car accident, Ray contacted a service man (John Goodman) at
an air field and flew his father to Michigan to a better hospital. (1:10:00)
While in Seattle he Joined the American Legion.(1:12:30)
He joined post 40 in Seattle Washington. (1:13:18)
He has changed his legion Membership to Harrison Michigan since living in Winterfield
Township. (1:14:03)
He joined the VFW but is not active. (1:14:25)
He has not attended any reunions. On one occasion he did go and visit the museum at
Pensacola. (1:15:28)
Ray had 3 girls. (1:17:12)
One of his daughters, Rosemary, went to acting school and attended school in New York City.
(1:20:26)
Rosemary ultimately worked for a bank. (1:22:55)
Rosemary married and lived in Puerto Rico for several years before divorcing. (1:24:00)
Another daughter, Sharon, also taught a bit of school but ultimately ended up working for a
phone company. (1:25:32)
Sharon has 2 children. (1:26:32)
His first wife died in 1991. Approx. 1 year later he married Shirley. He and Shirley were married
approx. 15 years before she passed due to lung cancer. (1:28:04)
He still is in touch with several agents who he severed with while in the FBI. (1:30:02)

�Documents (1:33:28)
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A notice of separation form service (a release from active duty).(1:33:30)
Ray and his wife Eleanor. (1:34:19)
Wedding picture from Central Michigan University. (1:34:48)
Training log book for pilot training. (1:35:16)
A report of a flight (flight instructors report). (1:36:47)
Aviation flight log book. (1:38:15)
The final page of the log book lists 1,311.9 hours. (1:38:42)

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                    <text>Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project
Raymonde Richardson
(00:46:44)
(22:20) Background Information
• Raymonde was born in Paris, France
• Her father worked as an engineer and her mother stayed at home
• She grew up during the depression and food was quite scarce
• Raymonde would get up at 5 AM to wait in the food line, and would be replaced
by her sister at 8 AM so that she could leave for school
• Her family had not talked much about the impending was so as not to scare their
children
(4:20) Beginning of the War
• The German invasion all happened very fast; no one had been scared at all and
then there was widespread panic
• The French had first thought that they could protect themselves and hold off the
Germans with the Army fortifications
• Her family left Paris to live in the country, but were forced by German troops to
return back to their home in Paris
• There was no longer and fuel and everyone was riding their bikes around
• There were German soldiers all over patrolling the streets
(14:00) Life during the War
• Raymonde spent time dancing, seeing movies, swimming, and basically sneaking
around the Germans so they could have fun
• All the colleges were closed, so her future had been put on hold
• There was nothing else to do and no where to work, so her parents sent her to a
training school where she learned to sew, cook, and took a few basic classes for 2
years
• There were many Germans staying in the expensive French hotels
• Some of the French Resistance had been captured by Germans, where they were
tortured or murdered
(18:40) A Turn in the War
• Raymonde remained in Paris throughout the war
• She remembered hearing news of a pending US invasion
• The Germans confiscated all their radios because they did not want them to know
that the Germans were losing
• The French Resistance continued fighting in Paris
• Soon Americans entered France and it was like everyone was going crazy
• People were dancing in the streets and running mad all over Paris
• It was a fantastic time

�(24:15) Post Invasion
• French took revenge against those that had collaborated with the Germans
• The transportation got better and the food supply increased slowly
• In 1946 Raymonde moved in with a good friend in Normandy that helped her get
a job with the US Army working in graves registration
(32:40) Life After the War
• Raymonde met her husband in Paris in 1955; he had been working there as an
engineer
• She had been working as a secretary before meeting him and he had been in the
Army
• They moved to Clarksville, Michigan, which was a very small town compared to
Paris
• Her husband owned a farm and she was a housewife
• They had five children and the change was not hard on her
• Though she did find that Americans are quite different in the way they are not
very serious and take everything so lightly
(39:40) Present Day Paris
• Raymonde visited Paris two years ago with her son, and the young people spoke a
different type of French
• It is frustrating that Americans sometimes can’t understand her because of her
accent and young French people can not understand her either
• In Paris everyone spoke English and could understand her son
• There were many immigrants from China, India, Africa, and the Middle East
• There were also many homeless people all over the streets begging

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                    <text>Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
World War II
Robert Richmond
Length: 39:55
(00:15) Background Information







Robert was born in Shelburne, Indiana in 1924
His father was a coal miner and later became a farmer
Robert helped his father work on the until he was 18 years old
He went to a small school and played football and basketball
Robert graduated in 1942 and then began working for a delivery truck company
He was drafted into the Army on in March of 1943

(6:40) Training
 Robert went through basic training for 13 weeks at Camp Wheeler in Georgia
 He had not really ever traveled before and was really amazed by the size of the camp and
all the people there
 Robert was already used to working hard from growing up on a farm and training was not
that hard on him
 He spent 3 weeks in field training and then 10 weeks training to be a mechanic
 Robert also went through infantry training and often went on 30 mile hikes
 He then went to a camp in Pennsylvania for another 3 weeks and then was shipped
overseas
(12:10) Italy
 Robert’s trip lasted 14 days and they traveled in a zig zag course in order to avoid enemy
submarines
 They landed in Oran and then bivouacked for 3 weeks and worked on unloading supply
ships
 They left the area and went to Sicily and moved across Italy
 There was barely any need for his mechanical help and Robert began working with heavy
weapons instead
 They fought at the Battle of Salerno and the Germans put up quite a fight
 The Americans ended up chasing the Germans to the North of Italy
(19:15) Wounded
 Robert had been working as a first gunner and many men around him were hiding in fox
holes
 A bazooka shell fell into a fox hole near him and exploded

�




Robert was brought o the hospital and spent 8 months recovering
He then went back to Naples and was shipped to North Africa to stay at the 114th Station
Hospital for another 3 weeks
Robert stayed on a hospital ship in Casablanca and then finally took a troop ship back to
the US
The trip only lasted 7 days because they were no longer trying to avoid enemy
submarines

(26:15) Back to the US
 They landed in Virginia and then Robert was sent to a hospital in Georgia
 After his time in the hospital Robert had limited service for one month at Fort Dicks in
New Jersey
 Robert was then transferred to a Signal Corps Photographic Center in New York City
 He then signed up for one more year of service because he was not sure as to what he
wanted to do when he was done in the service
(30:25) Discharged
 Robert got married and had one child during the last year of his service
 He began working in carpentry and found that not many jobs were available
 He and his family moved back up to Indiana and Robert began working for GMC
 Robert worked for GMC for 30 years and then retired

�</text>
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Boring, Frank</text>
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                    <text>The Michigan Philanthropy Oral History Project
Interview Log Sheet
Storyteller: Ranny Reicker
Interviewer: Rebecca Norick
Date: 6/24/07
Time: 35:56
Facilitator: Rachel Falcone
Location: Ranny Reicker’s Home
(0:00) Introductions
(1:19) Ranny speaks about foundations, Ranny’s parents born in Midland, went to
school in Ann Arbor
(2:24) Rebecca also raised in Ann Arbor, Mother and grandmother funded foundation
(3:04) Dow Foundation for Midland, Tousley Foundation Ranny’s mother operated,
focus of foundation was early childhood
(4:09) The areas of giving, both foundations give to education
(5:34) Exciting projects- Michigan Conservatory, Universal Preschool, science and math
issues
(6:34) Discuss how “philanthropy is a way of life, you grow up with it” that’s how you
teach the children
(8:30) Influence of Ranny’s mother- calling folks and getting funds together
(9:24) Saginaw Valley College
(10:58) Philanthropy meaning for Ranny, try things that the government can’t, try and
experiment with “agents of change”
(11:36) Discuss the legacy of the foundations and Ranny
(12:30) Look at community issues, not family issues
(13:18) Discuss what she would say to her mother and grandmother if they were here,
they were pioneer women. The first woman to sit on the council was her mother
(13:50) Discuss what needs to be instilled in our children
(14:25) Being a woman in philanthropy, people expect women to be “do-gooders”
(15:42) Challenges faced in philanthropy, a lot of issues to tackle, making money for
larger responsibilities

�(17:32) Family foundations should have non-family trustees
(18:29) More freedom for family foundations, opportunity to bring families together to
share culture and values to bring to work
(21:05) Generosity towards Midland
(23:16) Speaking to granddaughter- instill how to be a philanthropist- get involved in
community and non-profit work, also get involved with fundraising, not just giving.
Community ownership, get the rest of the community involved
(27:14) What does it mean to be part of Michigan Grant-makers? First meeting in Ann
Arbor, Ruth and Harding Mott, big names in philanthropy in Michigan
(29:20) Choosing Dottie’s successor
(30:12) Highlights of CMF
(33:51) Discuss the hope for Michigan as a state

�</text>
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                    <text>Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project
A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant
Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department

John and Wilma Riley Interview
Interviewed by Alan Moul
June 18, 2016

Transcript
AM: This is Alan Moul and I'm here with John Riley. That's J-o-h-n R-l-e-y…
WR: R-i…
AM: R-i-l-e-y. And Wilma, his wife, W-i-l-m-a. And the date is June 18th, two thousand sixteen. And this
is part of the oral history being collected and its part of the Growing Community Project through Grand
Valley. So, we're going to talk today about the Riley history in Oceana County and growing fruit,
vegetables, Christmas trees, whatever they would like to talk about. So, John, I guess, where do the
Rileys start in Oceana County? And how did they get here, maybe? Or what are you remembering about
that?
JR: My grandparents came from Alpena area and established what we call the home farm. And my son
lives there now. And I have a place up on the hill just adjoining.
AM: From Alpena then.
JR: Yeah.
1

�Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project
A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant
Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department

AM: Now, were they farmers there or purchased the farm or what?
WR: No, they had emigrated from Canada.
AM: Oh!
WR: Both his grandparents and also his grandmother's parents came from that area.
AM: Okay.
WR: They came first to Alpena to work in the lumber business and then moved to Mears and his
grandma and grandpa were Richard and Clara Isabel Riley [?]. And they, first of all, became managers of
the old hotel that was there in Mears.
AM: Okay.
JR: At the railroad station.
AM: Was that in town there?
WR: Yes.
JR: There was a branch that went to Pentwater and there was a triangle there and one went to Hart and
they were able to turn the engines around. You had to have a triangle to turn them around.
AM: Well, sure. Yeah, okay.
WR: His grandmother, who was always known to us as “Bel” or Isabel [?], her parents were Alexander
and Caroline Henderson. And the original home farm that John referred to was purchased by Richard
Riley and Isabel from her parents.
AM: Okay, so that would have been originally Henderson's then.
WR: Yes, in the deed.
AM: Now how far back does that deed go?
WR: It would have been in the late eighteen hundreds and I can't give you an exact date on that. His
uncle, Bill, was born in Alpena. And I think that the year of his birth was eighteen ninety-three. So, it
would have been shortly after they came from Alpena and lived there in Mears.
AM: And so that's how they started farming then? They started on that piece of ground.
JR: Yes.
AM: How many... was that a forty [acre farm] or was that? A lot of the farms were quite small back then.
JR: It was a forty.
AM: Okay, yep. And did they grow fruit or what did they do? Do you know?
JR: We've always been known as a fruit farm. And of recent years, twenty years ago we got into
asparagus. Other than that, it was all fruit. Cherries are our main crop, apples, a few peaches, which
none of us like.
2

�Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project
A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant
Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department

AM: [Laughter] I’m familiar with that.
JR: It takes a lot of [?], they have fuzz that itches.
AM: It does. [Laughter] And the fair is going on at the same time.
WR: But, we like to eat them.
AM: Oh yeah. [Laughter] So then you started farming… now, you yourself, when did you come into the
picture then? I mean, did you work on the farm growing up, as a kid and all?
JR: Oh, yeah.
AM: Always been on the farm.
JR: Oh yeah.
AM: Okay.
WR: His father, Clayton Riley, took it over when his dad died. His dad died very suddenly in nineteen
twenty-seven, just before John was born and his parents then moved to the home place to be with
Grandma Riley. And then eventually Clayton and Flora became the owners or managers, anyway. His
grandmother held the title to the lands until after her death. They managed and everything was under
their care but she was still owner of the property, which is interesting.
AM: Okay.
JR: She didn’t want to let loose.
AM: Didn't want to give up control, huh? That’s understandable.
JR: And she didn’t control anything, but that was her security, I guess.
AM: Yeah, mentally, anyway, it was yeah. So how many brothers did you have?
JR: Two brothers and two sisters.
AM: Okay.
JR: There were three boys and two girls.
AM: Okay. Did they all farm then?
JR: No, I’m the only one that...
AM: You were the smart one that stayed on the farm.
JR: You said it! [Laughter]
AM: We all know all the jokes about how much money does it take? You know, you farm till it's gone
and all that. [Laughter] So then you continued, probably, to… unless you've got like a timeline that you
want to go through?
WR: No, no. This is just about the Hendersons.
3

�Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project
A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant
Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department

JR: Everybody that owned the farm expanded, you know.
AM: Right. Okay, yeah.
WR: It was interesting, just recently - and I read this in an old copy of the Mears News - and it tells that
the owner of the piece of property that we now own and live on, a part of the farm was sold to a man
named Mr. Pike. And Swift, in his little paper, said, “I presume,” something to this effect, “I presume
that when Mr. Pike finishes this transaction that he will call it Pike's Peak.”
AM: [Laughter] Up on the hill, huh?
WR: Yeah, yeah. And it's, to this day, it's still called the Pike Place.
AM: So, did land… did you refer to pieces of land by names like that? Like today we… I know we had
them on our farm.
JR: Every piece of property had to have a name because when you went to the field, you had to know
where you were going. And often they took the name of the people you bought from.
AM: We had some “by the rock.” There was a big rock. “By the rock” or “north of the woods.” But you're
right, usually the previous owner or… because we tried doing a number system one time and there were
too many numbers, you couldn't remember them all.
WR: Right.
AM: So, yep. Let's see, so what do you… you served in World War Two, right?
JR: Yes.
AM: So, at some point you went off to that and then how did the farm carry on while you were gone
then?
JR: Well, it was still in the family farm. And my dad and mom farmed it and I went to the service right
after school so I hadn’t really gotten started in it.
AM: Okay, so you were nineteen or so.
JR: Yeah. When we came back, then we… I decided to farm and started there.
AM: Did you have hired hands or migrants or Mexican helpers or what did you have at that point? I
know on our farm there was a lot of Southern workers.
JR: Yeah, we had Southern people and we had housing for them that was a bear shelter.
AM: Sure. Wouldn't pass now, would it?
JR: No, no, no, no, no. In fact, the house where we live was one of the houses that the pickers lived in.
AM: Okay.
WR: But not the house that we live in now.
JR: The site.

4

�Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project
A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant
Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department

WR: Yeah.
AM: Okay, there’s pictures here.
WR: ...of some when they were still picking cherries by hand. I found these last night and this is John and
one of the older people. What was the older man's name?
JR: Mr. Hilt.
WR: Mr. Hilt, yes. And he had his own little part of the… he lived in one of the old buildings here at the
farm. I brought that picture because it shows the old buildings at the farm.
AM: Now, how many migrant workers do you think you had at the peak… would you have had
harvesting cherries?
JR: We never picked; most of my life, we’ve mechanically harvested. We had a crew, though, that came
in and picked and they hauled them over to the plant in Hart - the Stokely plant.
AM: Sure.
JR: And they brought their people with them.
AM: Crew leaders with big trucks, like with a canvas top. I remember that, barely, but I do remember
that.
JR: And then, from then on, the Labor Department got in it and every year we had to make
improvements. And we have quite nice labor housing now.
AM: Right, sure.
WR: At one time, after his father died - John's father, Clayton, died - and I can remember doing the
payroll and it was for over sixty.
AM: Okay.
WR: But that was, originally, when a family would come they would all pick under one name. And that
built up Daddy’s Social Security.
AM: Sure.
WR: And then, you know, the government regulations changed. And then we had to use the name of
every individual.
AM: Right.
WR: But we weren't long in that because then we went to mechanical harvesting.
AM: Yeah. Now you had - when you did start mechanically harvesting - you had a Friday shaker, right?
JR: Yes.
AM: Okay, and that was two frames that came around the tree and there was a conveyor. We had a
different kind, so I'm having trouble remembering exactly. But everybody kind of chose the one that fit
their farm and the one they liked the best.
5

�Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project
A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant
Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department

JR: It had two inclined planes that got most of the cherries, some went over the edges, but they went
down to a conveyor and the conveyor went from there, right into the cherry tank.
AM: Okay, what year do you think you started? Did you put cherries in water before you mechanically
harvested at all?
JR: No.
AM: Never did.
JR: No.
AM: Okay, just when you took them to the plant and dumped them in the big tanks.
JR: Yeah.
AM: Okay. And I remember the long lines with the juice running everywhere from the lugs.
JR: Yes.
AM: You could hardly walk across the trailer because it was so sticky it would just pull your shoes off,
almost. [Laughter] And then, so we started mechanically harvesting then and so you could cover more
ground. I mean, now you could plant more acres.
JR: Yeah. I don't know how many pickers we’d need to have now to take care of the one shaker. And
we’ve got two.
AM: Now they have a wraparound...
JR: Yeah.
AM: ...shaker that shakes the trunk, yeah, a one man...
JR: An upside-down umbrella, I call it. [Laughter]
AM: Right, yep. Was there any backlash from the migrants when the shaking started because they were
kind of losing their part of their season, anyway.
JR: There was incidents around but we never had any.
AM: Okay, good.
JR: They would go out and slit the canvases and there wasn't much of it.
AM: More frustration probably than anything, I think.
JR: Yeah.
AM: Tell me a little bit about the people you did have working for you. I know some people formed
relationships with the people and became good friends and is there any memories you have of that?
Any specific people or…?

6

�Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project
A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant
Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department

JR: No, not really, because my uncle, Bill, my dad's brother, had a crew leader and we didn't have a crew
because we had enough help that we handled the distribution, throwing the boxes off and picking them
up and hauling them to the factory.
AM: So, you didn't interface with the people a whole lot then? Not like a crew leader would.
WR: Remember Mr. Hilts and Vern, they came every year.
JR: Over years, yes, they came. That's when we handpicked.
WR: Yes.
AM: Did you ever visit any of them…
JR: Yes.
AM: ...in their homes in the south?
JR: Mr. Hilts in Muskegon, we have been there.
AM: Oh, he was in Muskegon?
WR: Yeah, he’s from Muskegon.
AM: Okay, so there were local people, too, that drove up and worked?
JR and WR: Oh yeah.
JR: And we had a cabin for him.
AM: Okay.
JR: He was almost part of the family.
AM: Sure. It was a different time.
JR: Yep, and when he went home, when I was a little boy, I cried. He was a storyteller and I’d go out and
he’d sit and puff on his pipe and tell about the woods and he worked for the lumber company, lumber
camp.
AM: Sure, okay. So, then your kids, Mark and Daniel, the boys, started farming with you then. And when
would that have been?
WR: When, well, actually we got our first shaker - the Friday - when Mark was still in high school. In fact,
he was fourteen years old the first summer that we had the Friday.
JR: We had to weigh it down so he could see over it - tilt it - it was, you know, flexibility. But he would
walk on his tiptoes all summer peeking over that thing and it had limb shakers at that time.
AM: Yes, I remember that; we had one a different style. Do you remember, did the first shakers… I seem
to remember seeing one that was on a harness, a guy carried like a chainsaw on an arm - very
lightweight. But was there something like that or am I imagining?
JR: No, there were those that somebody that had a few acres.
7

�Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project
A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant
Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department

AM: Okay, and they didn't last long.
JR: No, no.
WR: They were limb shakers.
JR: A lot of work and you had to catch them on something canvas and dump them into a box.
AM: And it was an idea in the beginning, wasn't it? It was somebody's idea, other than hand picking.
[Laughter] Yeah, there's all the old stories of all the broken ladders and my brother and I were talking
the other day about the nine foot. They always wanted a nine-foot ladder. Well, you didn't want to give
many of them out because they’d stand on top of that and pretty soon you'd hear “crack” and down
they'd go. And I just remember that we’d have to fix the nine footers.
JR: We had six and eight, most of them. Two or three tens. But, the top step was quite big, was quite
large, and that was quite comfortable to stand on.
AM: As long as you could hold a branch.
JR: Yeah.
AM: Yeah, never let them do it today.
WR: Yeah, I can remember in my day picking cherries that I could position that ladder so I could get up
there and sit on that top board and pull the cherries to me, you know, to drop into the bucket.
AM: How many lugs could you pick in a day? Do you remember?
WR: I think my top picking was fourteen lugs in one day.
AM: Wow, those were what? Twenty-two, twenty-four-pound lugs, something like that?
WR: And I think it was like over four hundred pounds.
AM: Okay.
WR: I made one time [laughter], but that was because I picked under the authority of an older brother
who took no mercy...
AM: No.
WR: ...on me at all.
AM: Get to work, huh!
WR: Yeah.
AM: Older brothers can do that, I guess.
JR: But one of the interesting things when we were kids, we had a five-gallon milk can and we put trays
of ice in that and we had to carry that around, people to people…
AM: ...to give them drinks.
JR: ...down the row to give them a drink. We had a dipper.
8

�Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project
A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant
Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department

AM: Yep. [Laughter]
JR: And we had one guy that he chewed tobacco and a lady who lived in Pentwater, they drove in every
day and she got that dipper and she got around and drunk from the handle where nobody else could do
it. I said, “that’s funny, you drink just like the guy next door!” She spit it out and carried her water from
then on.
AM: [Laughter] I remember my dad taking jugs of half frozen… he’d freeze it and then he'd fill the top
with water and take it out and they wouldn't drink it. They said, “well, just throw it under the tree over
there. It's too cold. It'll make us sick.” They wouldn't drink that ice water. They'd let it warm up. It was
just strange to me.
JR: I never heard that.
AM: What other memories do you have of those days of more hand labor, you know?
JR: Well, when we had to pick up the lugs right under the tree, there'd be a stack of six, seven to ten,
maybe; if it was a family, twelve, fourteen. And we would pick up three at a time with a handle and we’d
put our knee under it and grab it right underneath. And we always paid for the pounds, so we had to
weigh each one.
AM: Okay. I think that was quite common. I know Munger did that a lot and he had a lot of cherries, I
guess.
JR: And we had to set the scale back to the weight of the lug.
AM: The empty log.
JR: And every night my mother would average it out and we would either come up a little high or a little
short. We had to set the scale back the next day to compensate. She wanted to pay the right amount.
AM: Okay, yeah.
JR: You know, you could gain a pound on every lug, you know, but she was very conscious…
AM: Very honest about it.
JR: ...very conscious.
AM: It's kind of like getting wet apple boxes back when you took dry ones in. You lose money every
time. So, let me ask you, what asparagus… you said you got into asparagus. What year would you say?
JR: Boy, I don't know.
WR: The kids were still in high school.
AM: Late, late ‘60s or early ‘70s? Okay.
WR: It was just a small field that was next to where Mark lives now.
AM: And where did you plant... what fields did you plant? And how did you decide where to plant your
asparagus?

9

�Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project
A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant
Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department

JR: Well, you decide... we wanted to plant cherries. That was our number one goal. We’re cherry
farmers and then apples where it was suitable. And that was our main [crop]. We never was into
peaches much, a little bit, but not much.
AM: I seem to remember a story about... was it Amber Gems that everybody wanted and then they
didn't want them all of a sudden? Was that the one?
JR: That was the first [?] that came out. But they had a red pit cavity and then when they processed it, it
turned brown.
AM: Okay, that was the demise of them then. I know a lot of guys planted them and then turned right
around pretty much and took them out. But I guess that's one of the risks of…
JR: Well, you never know. Almost every fruit variety has a bad point, yeah.
AM: Nowadays, with all these new apple varieties that are so expensive that you have to buy - I don't
know how it works - shares in a...
[End of Audio Recording]

10

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