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TEMPLE
B'NAI
I S RA E L
E· 1Ptr,;
Al l(
1
391 West Webster at Fourth Street
Muskegon, Michi gan 49441
Rabbi Dr. Phillip Rosenberg
President -
1969
Sept ember 5
Friday Evening
VESPER SERVICES
ROSH HA 1 SHONAH
September 12, Friday •• ~Traditional Service
Community Service
Sept ember 13, Saturday Traditional Service
Community Service
Children & Youth Service
(Conduct ed by TYG)
ROSH HA' SHONAH - SECOND DAY
Sept ember 13, Saturday Traditional Service
Sept ember 14, Sunday • . • Traditional Service
Sept ember 19
Friday EvAning Shabbat Shuvah
Kiddush
YOM KIPPUR
September 21, Sunday . ... Kol Nidre Tra ditional
Community Service
September 22, Monday . • • Traditional Service
Community Service
Traditional Musaf & Mincha
Children & Youth Service
(Conducted by TYG )
Community Memorial
Combined Ne ' ila
Concluding Service
(SCHEDULE OF SEHVICES CONTINUED ON PAGE ThO)
8 : 00 PM
7:00
8:00
8 : 00
10:30
2 :30
PM
PM
AM
AM
pi'1
7 : 30 PM
8:30 A.l' i
8:00 PM
6:15 .PM
8:00 PM
8:00 AM
10:45 AM
1:15 PM
2:15 PM
4: 15 PM
5:15 P1I
6:15 PltJ
�SCHEDULE OF WORSHIP SEhVICES CONTINUED
September 26
Friday Evening
SPECIAL SUCKOT SEhVICE & Fhi\ULY Si,hVICE
BIRTHDAY BLESSING CEHEI~ONY
Oneg Shabbat & Yorn Tov
8:00 PM
Sunday Evening
7:00 PM
SIMCHAT TOfu..H SEhVICE
Torah Procession - Children to Get Flags & Sweets
Oneg Simchat Torah after Service ~~ill be Held in Social Hall
September 28
ADDITIONAL TRADITIONAL SERVICES
Sabbath Mornings
September 6, 20, 27
8:30 A.Ivi
~• HHHHP,HHHHHHH~~HHH!• HHHHHHHHHP,:-~• P~~~~-;rx• r )(• ~• HP~• ~~~~HHH~~~,HHH :• :• ~~HHr~• HHHHHHHHHH ~
CALENDAR - SEPTEMBER
'l'ue 9 Hada ssah Meeting
Thu 11 BOARD OF TRUSTbES
Sat 27 Sist erhood Opening
Sat 27 TYG Opening
8 :00
8 :00
B1 NAI BRITH MEETS AUGUST 28
There will be a B1nai Brith
meeting this Thursday, Augu st 28,
at 8:00 PM. This meeting will
be important in that we will project and finalize plans for this
new year . If you have any gripes
or sugge stions t o help i mprove
your organization, please att end
and air them. This will be t he
meeting to put your i tieas forward .
Dan Silberman, President
HADASSAH EDUCATION SEPTEMBER 9
Hadassah Education through
Programming ! l.hat i s behind U.S .
Government budget cut? Aid to
Arabs at Israel's expense? Mrs .
Arthur Greenberg reports on American .iiffairs on Tuesday, Sept. 9,
at 8:00 PH. Place of meeting to
be announced .
Page 2
RELiffiIOUS SCHOOL OPENS SEPT . 28
--- Inasmuch as the High Holy Days
come the second and thj_rd weekends in September , Sunday School
classes will begin several weeks
l ater than u sual. The official
start of classes is no1tr schedul ed
for September .28 at 10:0G J-1.H .
Registration will take place
Thursday morning, September 4,
bet ween 9: 30 1,H and 11: 00 AM in
the Temple Lobby, Registration
may be also sent by mail with
checks made payable to Temple
B'nai Israel Board of Sducation.
Used books for resale may be
brought to the 'I'e,,1pl e before
thi s date clearly marked with
your name . Registration fee is
$10 per child .
The Finance Committee calls
it to your att ention that
parents must have made their
1969-70 pledge and paid onequarter of their dues befor e
r egistration .
t-JO'l'E NE\J OFFICE HOUL.b .nFTEh
kBOFc DAY F01, Tfa,iPLl!, SEC1 .b'l. ;1.hY:
8:00 AM throurh 12:00 Hondays
through Thursaays .
�DR . KANTOh ::i.l!.iliCTo C01•uvi.I'l 'lbbS
Dr. Morton Kantor, President of
Temple B'nai Israel, is pleased to
announce the following committees
to expedite Temple affairs for
1969-70:
Finance Committee: ChairrnanMr. Isadore Ashendorf, Mr. Joel
Wi ener, Dr. Arthur Greenberg, Mr .
Jack Lipman, Mrs . Rose Lawson,
}fr. Joel Zaslowski, }lr. Jeffrey
Conn, Mr. Arthur Jenkins, Mr . Alan
Oppenheimer, Mr . Herbert Steinman and Dr. liorton Kantor .
House Committee: Co-ChairmenJ:vlr . Nax Rothschild and Mr. Herbert
Steinman . Mr . Arthur J enkins,
hr . Dan Silberman .
Rabbi's Liaison & llitual
Committee : Chairman: Hr . Alan
Oppenheimer·. Mr. Douglas Rosen,
Nr. 'l'ed Neumer, Mr . Abe Ashendorf,
iir. Jos ~ph Simon, Mr . Max Rothschild .
Library Committ ee : Hrs . Alan
Oppenheimer
Cemetery Corrunittee: Hr .
Isadore 1~shendorf
Bequest-Foundation Committee:
Chairman- 1-ir . hi chard Kaufman . Dr.
Arthur Greenberg, Mr . Leo Rosen,
Mr . Jack Lipman
Membership: Mr. & ivfrs . Jack
Lipman
Sol Cohan Scholarship: Chairman
- Mr. Earvin Gudelsky. Dr . Morton
Ka:ntor, Mr. Joel Wiener
Kitchen Committee: Chairman Mrs . Dan Silberman_. Mr . Herbert
Steirm1an, Mr . ilrthur J enkins,
Mrs. Alan Oppenheimer, Mr. Joel
·wiener , Dr. Morton Kantor .
Board of Education: ChairmanMrs . Herbert Steinman. · Mrs .
Ralph August, Mrs . 1ouis Aron .
(Continued next column)
1:lOh..H.lJ uF ,tt.;1JUCll.'1lvi~ - Continued
Mrs.Arthur Greenberg, r-irs . Jack
Lipman, Nrs. Joel 'vviener and Dr .
Phillip Miller .
habbi Selection Committee :
Chairman - Dr . Morton Kantor . Mr .
Alan Oppenheimer, Mr . Herbert
Steinman, Hr . Douglas li.osen, Mr .
Jack Lipman, Dr . Arthur Greenberg,
Mr
. Joel Wiener .
;
0
SISTEhHOOlJ OP1NING SEP'l'EHBER 27
Save Saturday, September 27 ,
for our gala Sisterhood opening
affair . Dinner - plus the Kanilot Israeli Dancers from Milwaukee.
This group of professional
dancers and musicians include
Nancy and Jim Price . More information will foliow in~ flyer ,
lvirs. Joel ~1i ener is replacing
Mrs. Samuel Price as Sisterhood
First Vice-President .
SISTERHOOD RUJvIMAGE SA.LE COMING
The Sisterhood Rwrnnage Sale
will be October 15 at the Flea
Market . Please save us your
"goodies" . Call Ruth Onpenheimer,
755-2814 or Betty Silberman,
798-3576, for pick up .
UJC URGES PLEDGES
United J ewish Charities of
Greater Muskegon urges that if
you have not as yet made your 1969
pledge this should be done at
once . Payments of pledges should
be made as soon as possible so
that the money can be put to work ,
IMPORTANT NOTICE
Meeting dates and other information for the October Temple bulletin needed in writing by 8: 00 AM
on Thursday, September 24 at Temple
office ,
Page 3
�LONNIE CONN HAl:~DLbS UNIONGRAMS
Lonnie Conn will be glad to
add your name to a list automatically sending Uniongrams for all
occasions. Your Uniongrams stand
for "YES" .Xouth - !2_ducation and
.§.isterhood. Youth educational
projects are enriched through the
YES fund. The i ducation of future
rabbis through student aid at the
Hebrew Union College-Jewish Institute of Religion and to Sisterhood by extending its program and
helping ourselves to expand by
Service through Sisterhood. Call
Lonnie at 744-5049 .
==~_.;;.;-"---'--'......_~--'-'-~---------1
SEND CHbCKS 'i'O '1:h.L.H.SU1JillS
To save time and postage in remailing, please send dues checks
direct to Treasurers of Temple
organizations: Sisterhood-Vivian
Ashendorf; Hadassah-Jean \~iener;
B'nai Brith-Bill Druker . Temple
and UJC payments should be sent
to Temple office, as should checks
for the Board of bducatio. and
contributions.
If you order supplies for an
organization, such as from
Daniels Office Supplies, please
be sure that you advise them that
the items should be billed to that
organization, not to the Temple.
ATTENTION: GIFT SHOP LE,NOVATED .
Your Sist erhood Gift Shop has
had its face lifted and is upen
under new management. Mrs . Rose
Lawson and Hrs . Fi.oz Chevlin are
co-chairmen. 1fo will have New
Year's cards and anything else
you want for your holiday or gift
needs . Special orders will be
taken anytime . We just returned
from Chicago with some very
"special" items, some of which
are now on dis la in the cases ,
GOING AWAY ROh THE HOLY DAYS?
If you expect to attend I-.osh
Hashonah or Yorn Kippur services
at another synagogue, it will be
necessary to apply AT ONCE to
the Temple office for a UAHC High
Holy Days Courtesy Request Form.
This must include the name and
addr ess of the Congr egation where
you will worship, as a copy must
be sent to them so they can
properly anticipate their seating
requirements . P1Ei,.S1 NOTE. , that
MAILING ADDnESSES NEEDED
these Courtesy Forms are available
If a member of your family who
to only Temple members in good
is in the armed services or attend- standing, not to out-of-town
ing college would like the Temple
members of their families, other
bulletin mailed to them, please
than students or members of armed
print their complete name and
_f_o_r_c_e_s_.______________
address on a postal card and mail
CHANGES NEEDED FOR COMMUNITY LISTS
to the Temple office as soon as
possible - rather than phoning to
It is urgently requested that
avoid error. Include zip code .
any changes of address or home or
This includes students who rebusiness phones be reported as
ceived the bulletin last year, al- soon as possible to the Temple
though thete may be no change in
office, as soon 1969-70 Comraunity
..::.:.::.::.::;:-..;::.;:=..;;.::;.;:;.;:
their address ._ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _--t List Booklets will be in prePage 4
·,
�N E if Y E A R G h E E T I N G S
On behalf of the Temple Board, I would like to extend best wishes
for a healthy and happy New Year to all our Congregants . We'll be
looking forward to seeing you at services .
Dr. Morton S . Kantor, President of Conj;..regation
This decade has seen many changes for the betterment of mankind,
changes ranging from hwnanitarian causes, such as civil rights, to
technological achievements, marked by the recent landing on the moon .
The Jews, by nature of tradition, have been leaders in this quest
for advancement.
On behalf of Muskegon Temple Youth, I wish you the best and most
fruitful of New Years. I ask you, as J ews, to join hands with other
people, young and old, to adopt a new outlook on life and think of
the words of Bobby Kennedy, when he said: "Some men see things as they
are and say 1~Jhy?' . I dream things that never were and say 'Why not? 1 ,
I am looking forward to serving you in the coming year . L'shona tova.
Steve Rothschild, _President Temple Youth Group
May the voice of the messenger of Good Tidings resound from the
mountain top of this Rosh Hashonah announcing peace and salvation for
all mankind. L'shonoh Tovah Tikatevu!.
Mrs. Daniel Silberman, President Sisterhood
With the coming of the New Year we look forward with renewed hope
to the Year of Peace for all men in all lands . May you enjoy good
health, an optimistic attitude, and joy in part,icipating and contributing in our community endeavors to reach this obtainable goal!
In Hadassa¥, we, of course are concerned about the State of Israel
and its security in the Mid-East continuing struggle . Let us work
even harder with greater dedication on our home front to insure its
survival . L 1 Shona Tova .
Mrs. Arthur Jenkins, Hadassah President
KITCHEN R.EJl'lODELING IN PROGRE.SS - YOllli HELP IS NEEDED!
"HAPPINESS 11 is a new Temple Kitchen, and the Kitchen Committee is
happily watching the "New Look" kitchen on its way to reality . The
wall is down and some new equipment will be installed along with the
re-arrangement of some of the existing fixtures and new wiring and
plumbing . The completed new kitchen will be a joy to work in . We
thank Mrs . Carl Kahn for her donation of ~160 to purchase a disposal
in memory of Nathan Broutman . Any donation large or small will be
happily accepted . We still need a double oven, a dishwasher, draining
t.::ihl"" ?D~ t'"'o •··'.'.',..1' -+-~.'""'~ ~, .
v,...,,,,. ~nntribution is tax deductible and
you will be an integral part of our progress and betterment of our
Temple . We are urgently in need of additional funds for completion,
�----- ---------=------=------ ----:============~-- - -ANNIVE.RSArtIES
hr . & l•1rs. i,iilton Steindler
September 2
Mr . & Mrs. Louis Rubinsky,
September 13
Mr. & Mrs. Marvin Gudelsky
September 14
Hr . & Nrs . Herbert Steinman,
September 21
}Ir. & Mrs. Charles Rubinsky,
September 22
Dr . & Mrs. Harry Ba.bad,
September 24
CONTRIBUTIONS
Choir Fund: From Joel 1/Tiener
family in honor of Bar Mitzvah of
Michael Wiener
Rabbi's Fund : From Kopeloff and
Greenberg families in memory of
Max Kopeloff
Garden Fund: Donations from Mr .
and Mrs . Hilton Steindler in
memory of Mr . Max Kopeloff, Hr .
Hans Homfeld, Bertha Colman and
Mr . Saul Zorn (husband of Mrs .
Steindler's sister), and in honor
of the wedding anniversary of Mr .
and Mrs. Douglas Rosen .
YIZKOR NEHOhlAL CONThIBU'I'IONS
are now being received at the
Temple office . A complete list
will be published in the October
bulletin .
REFUAH SHAYLAJ.vfi.A H
Best wishes for a full recovery
MISS DONNA J:ii:NKINS
to
patient at
who was
Hackle ·
ATTENTION COLLEGE S'l'UDENTS !
The Sol Cohan, iii . D. , Scholarship Fund is available for loans
to you for your education. Contact Dr . N:orton Kantor President .
Page 6
IN APPhECIA'l'ION
My thanks to all who sent
Uniongrams to nie during my
brief vacation in the hospital .
Alan Oppenheimer
Betty Silberman thanks everyone
who extended kindnesses to her
during her hospitalization .
The Congregation thanks B1nai
Brith for a wonderful picnic on
Augu~t 17 . A great time was had
by all who attended .
I would like to take this
opportunity to thank all of the
people who helped make the B'nai
Brith picnic the success it was .
My personal thanks to Paula
Ashendorf, Ahe Ashendorf, and
hrthur Greenberg who worked so
diligently .
Dan Silberman .
TEMPLE RECEIVES LIPMAN BEQUEST
The Temple is grateful to the
Lipman frunilies for a generous
bequest of ~>7 , 500 from the estate of the late Samuel Lipman.
CONGRnTULA'l'IOJIJS TO:
Mr . and rirs. hike Loomis, the
former Marguerite Bacon, who were
married at the Temple in June, and
are residing locally .
Mr . and Mr s . Rick Boyden, the
former Frances Price, who were
married June 22 at the T{illllple and
are living in the Larch Apartments .
Mr . and Mrs. Alan Farker, the ·
former Linda Babcock, who were
married August 2, and are residing
in Grand Haven .
Hr . and Hrs . James Adelman, the
former Marcia Levin, who were
married at the 'l'effiple August 10,
and who are living in Evanston
after a honeymoon in Hawaii .
�YAhHZ:t;IT CON'l'IMlliD
YAiRZEIT
HAhli.Y RUBINSKY, father of Misses
J A:OB SI NGER , father of Dr . Irving
Florence and huth Rubinsky and
3inger, Sept ember 3, Elul 20
NA'l'HAN BROU'l'HAN, brother of Hrs .
,
Mr. Charles Rubinsky,
Paul Wiener, father of Miss Nancy"
September 25
Broutman, Sept ember 4
REBECCA KLAYF, mother of Mr . Samuel
Ii.OBE.IiT CHE1,I N, husband of Mrs .
Klayf, September 23, Tishri 13
H:Ehl'.u-1.N i1IBNDELSOHN, father of Mrs .
Sarah Cherin, father of Mr .
Jerome Cherin, September 5
Reeva Le
Se tember 27
MAhIE K. hIPNER , r,1other of Mrs .
Douglas Ros en, September 5
CONDOLENCE
BESSIE GUDESLiff, mother of hr .
To the family of
David Gudelsky and l•irs. Sarah
MAX KOPELOFF
Cherin, Sept ember 7
' Husband of Hrs . Ida Kopeloff, and
SIGI1UND CAHN , hu sband of Mrs.
father of Mrs . Arthur Greenberg,
Selma Cahn, September 7, Elul 24 who passed away on June 5.
BERRYLEIB SHION , father of Mr.
May his memory be for a blessin Joseph Simon, September 7,
Elul '24
CONDOLENCE
FANNY EHiilil~Bl,hG, mother of Hrs .
To the family of
Helen Par ker, September 9
AhDO FRIEND
LEO ALTHOLZ, brot her of Mrs .
I brother of Mr. Harrison Friend, wh
Frances St eindl er, September 9
i pas ::- ed away on August 9 in Florida
HANNAI-1 BLUJ\CBEFtG, mother of Mr s .
~ May his memory be for a blessing
Samuel Lawson, September 9,
Elul 26
Mrs. EBther Freedman, a former
REUBEN LEVY, husband of Mrs . Reeva
resident of Huskegon with many
Levy, September 12
friends here, passed away and was
IDA BROUTHAN, mother of Nrs . Paul
laid to rest on July 6 in South
Wiener, September 14, Tishri 2
Bend, Indiana .
HARRY \JEI NER , f ather of Mr s . Ted
Neumer, Sept ember 14, Tishri 2
YAHRZEIT DATES REQUESTED
CELIA MENDELSON, mother of Mrs.
If a death has occurred in
Re eva Levy, September 18
your family during the past year
SHIEH TELES, son of Dr. and hrs.
which has not been made known to
Morr i s Teles , September 18,
the T mple office and hence has
Tishri 6
not b:en noted in a condolence in
ALEXANDElt S . Kh.AUSE II, son of
the Temple bulletin, please send
Hr. and Mrs. Edward H. Krause,
in particulars of name, relati.onSeptember 20
ship to you, and date of death to
AMELIA hOSEN , mother of Mrs. Goldie the office at once, if you wish
Smi t h, Sept ember 20
inclusion in the Yorn Kippur JULIA FEI NGOLD BROSTOFF, mother of
memorials and bulletin Yahrz~it
Mr s . Ja ck Chevlin , Sept ember 20
monthly listings.
Tishri 8
Thank you .
I
Page 7
�TEJ..iPLL YOU'lH GRODI' NE\:S lli'l''l'l:ili
This summer has been an active one for MTYG . First of all, we
have elected new officers - to insure another great year ahead . In
addition to t i1ose listed in June bulletin are Secretary Annette Lib'ner, Art F.othschild honored position of ex-officio, and Lee Oppenheimer
Junior Advisor .
Art Rothschild went to Detroit and taught in 11Mitzvah Core"
this summer for two weeks. The main obje ctive of this volunt eer
group is to teach childlren in the ghettos; to try to give a little
of one's self to help a more unfortunate, needy child . Diane Levin
and Steve hothschild were busy t nis summer, too . In Warwick, New
York, Diane and Steve took part in a NFTY function. National Leadership Institute is a training camp for Youth Group Leaders . (We 're
a better youth group for that!") To top off a great summer, eight
kids from our youth group attended summer conclave at Camp Waldon,
in Cheboygen .
For a hint of what's coming up this fall, our gr eat youth group
officers will represent JvfrYG when they attend 11 0FFICEhS 1 1:Jo..Thba'.l. r; . '1
This event takes place just out side of Detroit .
There will also be the gr eat est 11 Kick Off" ever ! On September 27 ,
our MTYG will begin planning a gr eat new year of youth programs,
and we'll keep our Templb up to date on the latest events .
11.espectfully submitt ed by i,nnett e Libner .
NOI'b NE.111 OFFICE HOUB.S 1-LFTEh LABOh DhY FOR TBHPLb 51:Ciili'li,.h.Y :
8:00 AM through 12:00 Hondays through Thursday .
Congregation B'nai Israel
391 West ti:::..bster at Fourth Street
Muskegon, Michigan 49441
�HIGHLIGHTS MUSl<EGON CHl\PTER HADASSAH
SEPTEMBER,
~Jl.§IN
JENKINS, PRESIDENT
1969
FLORENCE RUBi .NSKY, SECRETMY
THIS STRLVING TO PUT FORTH GREAT EFFOR f S
WHO WO ULD OE STATIONED ASTRIDE !SR AEL :S
TO ACHIEVE OUR DRE AM CONTI N• ES TO BE
FRONTIERS•
WR IT TEN ANEW I N LETTERS OF FIRE, BLOOD
AND UNTOLD HEROISM. THIS UN WA VERING
ONE CONCLUSION CAN OE DRAWN AT LEAST•
FA~TH IS THE FULFILLMENT OF AN AN CIENT
ARAO-SOVIET INTENTIONS ARE CLEAR. THE
LREAM THAT MA KES AN AMAZING STORY ' TH AT
ARA • STATES HAVE DECIDED TO ENGAGE IN A
FOUND RE ALIZATION IN OUR VITAL INSTITUTIONS LONG WA R OF A~TRITION; THE RUSSIANS HOPE
OF HEALTH, OF EDUCATION AND TH E BE~ IEF TO
TO PRESSURE THE UNITED STATES I NTO Y!ELDREMAIN INDIVIDUAL, TO GUARD OUR OWN PARTING TO ORAZEN ARAO DEMANDS~ THE RECENT
!CU LAR HERIT AGE-- A HERITAGE TH AT HA~KENS
CONGRESSI ONAL DECLAR ATI ON EMPHASIZES
DACK INTO THE MISTS OF ANCIENT REVELATIONS AMERICAN SUPPORT FOR THE VIE W TH AT ARAOS
PRODUCING MANY BRAVE MEN, POETS, SCHOLARS
AND ISR AELIS SHOULD TALK TO EACH OTHER.
AND SCIENTISTS. YET THIS AE~IS FORMED
THE UNITED STATE S, THE PEOPLE AND GovTHE BLUEPRINTS FOR ENLIGHTE NED WA Y~ OF
ERNMENT, SHOULD CONTINUE TO MA KE IT
LIVING. IT IS THE BEACON LIGHT TO ALL
CLE AR~- • EYOND DOU • T--THAT WE ~AVE NO
i~ A7!0NS WR ESTLING TO FIND THEIR WAY OUT
INTENTI ON OF A• ANDONING ISR AEL AND THAT,
0 F THE DARK JUNGLES OF ENSLAVE MENT.
ON THE CONTRAR Y, WE ARE RESOLVED TO
SUPPORT HER AND ENADLE HE R TO RE SIST THE
OUR RECORD Of PAST ACHIEVEMENT IS MERELY
SIEGE AND TO ENDURE.
UNITE~ ST ATES CA ~
THE CHALLENG.E OF THE FUTURE; THEREFORE
REAFFIRM AND REFLECT INTEREST ·1N I SRAEL o
LET US NOT OECOME EMBU ED WITH THE FA LSE
ISRAEL HAS NOT DE EN ASKING FOR THE GIFT
AND DANG EROUS CON VICTION TH AT WE HAVE
OF hMER IC AN SOLDIERS, AMERICAN WEAPON8 1
hLREADY REACHED OUR GO AL. THE SP ARK THAT
OR AN AMERICAN TREATY COMM IT MENT 0 HowGENERATED AND MO TIV ATED OUR VISI ON IS THE
EVER SHE DO ES HAVE ECONOMIC AND DEF[ N~ E
CHALLENGE OF THE FUTURE•
PROOLEMS:o OUR GOVERNMEN T IS FULLY AWARE
OF THEM AND TH AT IT WILL DO ALL TH AT !S
HERE . AND THERE! I 1
NECESS ARY TO ENAOLE IS RA E~ TO STRENGTHEN
HER DEFE~SES AND MAINTAIN SOCIAL AND
HAV ING REARMED AND EQUIPP.ED THE ARAB
SCIENTIFIC STANDA RDS.
hRM!E S, THE RUSSIANS NOW SEEK TO DISLODGE
IBRAEL FROM POSITIONS VITAL TO HER DEFENSE. THIS IS TAKEN FROM THE LONDON DAl LY
T:~ .'.\ T IS THE MEAING OF THE RUSSIAN 11 PEACE 11 . TELEGRAPH: 11 1N HIS PRESS CONF r.REtl CE,
PRESIDENT GEORGES POMPIDOU • ARRED EARLY
P~O POSA LS---AN ASTOUNDING ASSORTMENT OF
D[ Mr Nr S ON ISRAE L, RE WA RDS FOR THE ARA BS.
S~IPM~NT OF 50 MIRAG~S TO !SR A~L~ HE
TA'. RdSSlAN S ACK AT l~ 1\SSC R1 S AGl::NT~ T1-tEY
HllfiED AT A RETURN TO THE 11 SELnn1 vE
DEMAND THAT ISRAE L DE PUNISH~D AS IF SHE
EMDARGo" ' wH!OH w~ s IN EFf ECT PR IOR TO
11',D DEEN TH!:: /1 GRC3S')R ANi) TH':: LO SER AND
THE ,JJ\NUnA'f 3RD BE I RUT RA ID t,f\.JD W!-1 I CH
, ' i,H ~HE RESTORE P, LL TERR JTOR IE S SHE
Al.LOI/JED SH I PMCNT OF SPARE PARTS AND
OCCUPIED IN THE WAR~
DEFENSIVE MATERIAL. POMP IDOU SPOKE OF
~
FRANCE 1 S TRADITIONAL TIES WITH THE ARAti
TorAY , T~ANKS TO THE RUSSIANS, THE ARAOS
OUT MADE NO MEMTION OF FRI ENDSHIP WITH
H:WE MO RE AND DETTER WEAPONS THAN IN 1967. ISRAEL. COINCIDE.NTALLY, EGYPT HAS
AND THEY HAVE MORE TROOPS ON ISRAEL 1 S
· SIGNED A CONTRACT WITH A FRENCH-LED
FRON T LINES TH AN IN 1967. AT THAT TIME THE CONSOR TIU M. FOR THE ' CONSTRUCTION OF A
ISRAELI~ WERE FORCED TO MOBILIZE ALL THEIR PIPELINE TO DY-PASS SuEz. lHE 42 INCH
RESERVES TO WA RD OFF ATTACK. TODAY TH AT
LINE WILL COST $1/44 MILLION AND CARRY
IS NOT NECESSARY, EVEN THOUG~ THEY ARE
50 MILLION TONS OF OIL A YEAR, 207
CON FRONTED WITH LARGER, OETT[R-EQUIPPED
MILES FROM SUEZ NORTHWEST TO ALEXANDRIA
AND BETTER-TRAINED ENEMIES, THE ISRAELIS
ON THE MEDITERRANEAN SEA.
ARE !NA DETTER POSITION TO DEFEND
SAUDI ARAO I A1 S KtNG FAISAL IS THREATENTi-!C MSELVES.
ING TO CANCEL ARAM C0 1 S CONCESSI ON AN D 1 8
OFFERING
HU tWR!:DS Or MILL t01JS OF DC1.L .!\O. <'
THC E~!F.MY IS FAR REMOVED FROM I SRA EL f S
1
WORT '.; OF CCNTRAC'fS TO Fm~MC:1 ! NDIJ SF:Y
POP ULOUS CE NTERS~ ISR AEL S CEASE-FIRE
�ON CONDITION THAT tRANCE 1 S NEAR E~ST
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Temple B'nai Israel Collection
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Temple B'nai Israel (Muskegon, Mich.)
Description
An account of the resource
Collection of photographs, scrapbooks, programs, minutes, and other records of the Temple B'nai Israel in Muskegon, Michigan. The collection was created as part of the L'dor V'dor project directed by Dr. Marilyn Preston, and was supported by grants from the Kutsche Office of Local History and Michigan Humanities Council. Original materials were digitized by the University Libraries and returned to the synagogue.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Digital objects were contributed by Temple B'nai Israel as part of the L'dor V'dor project.
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Jews--United States
Muskegon (Mich.)
Scrapbooks
Synagogues
Women--Societies and clubs
Minutes (Records)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Preston, Marilyn
Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives
Relation
A related resource
L'dor V'dor (project)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
DC-08
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Image
Text
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
image/jpeg
application/pdf
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
Circa 1920s-2018
Text
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
DC-08_Bnai-Israel-bulletins-19690905
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
B'nai Israel Temple
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1969-09-05
Title
A name given to the resource
Temple B'nai Israel Bulletin, September 5, 1969
Description
An account of the resource
Temple B'nai Israel Bulletin, September 5, 1969. Bulletin highlights upcoming important sermons, dates, events, and messages to the congregation.
Subject
The topic of the resource
Jews--United States
Muskegon (Mich.)
Jewish newspapers
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Digital file contributed by the B'nai Israel Temple as part of the L'dor V'dor project.
Relation
A related resource
L'dor V'dor (project)
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1f44967757c32a25f511619cba78437c.mp4
6ccdee283c7babaf4fdf4d4022583f2e
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6e86f509d5f1425c392a13bf2390f88c.pdf
23ec10c11162841ce7e99ed2183b414c
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project
Brian Baar
(00:48:00)
(00:15) Introduction
• Born in Grand Rapids, Michigan.
• Can remember watching the television when President Kennedy was shot.
• Attended school with two of his cousins.
• His father was an executive at Steelcase in Grand Rapids.
• His mother was a waitress at Bill Knapp’s.
• He was the youngest member of his family.
• Can remember friends in fifth grade smoking marijuana.
• His classmates staged a protest against the war when one of the student’s brothers
was killed.
• He dropped out of school at sixteen to become a waiter.
• At seventeen, he began working at Steelcase.
(10:40) Army Rangers
• After partying too much at work, he decided to join the military.
• He signed up with a guarantee to be a Ranger.
• Attended jump school after his basic training and AIT school in 1980.
• Jump school was located at Hunter Army Airfield in Atlanta Georgia.
• The men received all of their equipment at once.
• Every morning, the men would have to do a five-mile run.
• A paper mill was very close to the run, so the men would have to endure the smell
while running.
• They would do hand-to-hand combat exercises and other physical exercise before
breakfast.
• He was assigned to B Company Weapons Platoon.
• He finished his training right at the same time the hostage crisis with Iran was
taking place.
• He was supposed to take place in Operation Honey Badger, the second hostage
rescue attempt. However, he had a parachute injury, and was not able to
participate.
• He never jumped again after that experience.
• After his time off due to injury, he was sent to the 24th Infantry.
(19:40) After the Rangers
• Became a member of the 2nd battalion, 21st infantry, 24th division Mechanized and
worked as a TOW gunner.
• He trained different National Guard divisions.
• At one point, he went to Egypt to train the Egyptian soldiers.
• While in Egypt, he was able to cross train on the Soviet equipment that the
Egyptians also used.
�Operation Bright Star was the name of the military exchange with the Middle
Eastern forces.
• Was able to meet General Starr while waiting for the landing gear to be repaired
on his plane in Shannon, Ireland while returning home from Egypt.
(23:20) End of Active Service and Reserve
• Married 6 months before his end of service.
• Became a member of inactive reserves.
• He became reactivated and had to train once a year.
• His reserve unit was the 101st.
• Turned down a chance to join the Multi national peacekeeping force. The plane he
would have been returning on crashed.
• Returned to factory work when his service was over.
• He home schooled his daughter and opened his own coffee business.
•
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Baar, Brian (Interview outline and video), 2008
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Baar, Brian
Description
An account of the resource
Brian Baar served in the US Army Rangers and with several infantry units in the early 1980s. His active duty experience included training several different National Guard units, and units in the Egyptian Army.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Collins Sr., Charles E. (Interviewer)
Collins, Carol (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Video recordings
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
United States. Army
Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2008-01
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
BaarB
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a66483bc9d8c7caa7eb7d4389393d119.mp4
9074b095f8a4ea2ffa8ad50b8babd95e
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c686ba0bba9f1f7f9df362de10fb649b.pdf
e5ec0056a0aff21981683a938dbf2f90
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project
Jack Baas
World War II
(1:34:14)
Background Information (00:10)
Born in Grand Rapids, Michigan, in 1920. He grew up in Grand Rapids. (00:15)
He attended Christian schools through the elementary level. He then attended and graduated
from George Davis Technical High school. He graduated in 1938. (00:31)
He then attended junior college. (00:40)
Jack’s father worked on furniture for 42 years. (1:16)
He had 4 siblings. (1:33)
He attended Hope College in 1940 after finishing junior college. (2:25)
Jack was in college for 2 years. He was at a fraternity party the night before Pearl Harbor. (3:07)
In January of 1942 in Jack’s senior year of college he enlisted in the U.S. Navy. He volunteered
for the V5 administration for flight training. (3:48)
Jack was sent back to finish school after enlisting, but before completing the term, he was
placed on 24 hour notice. (4:20)
Basic training and flight training (4:27)
Before graduating in spring of 1942 Jack was told to go to Mississippi. (4:38)
He left on the 2nd of June and arrived on the 4th of June 1942. He was going to WT or war
training school. (5:20)
He chose the Navy because other men he and met at college had spoke highly of it and because
his draft number was going to be pulled in August of 1942. (6:05)
Men in the V5 program were encouraged to be college graduates. (7:00)
The men flew Piper Cubs in their first flight training exercises. (7:20)
The men were given fairly little pre-flight training. The men were not given any basic training at
first. (8:00)
WT lasted 3 months. (8:40)
Next he was sent to the University of Georgia for Pre-flight school. Here the men did book work
and rigorous physical training. (9:14)
He was on bases the entire time during pre flight school. The schooling lasted 3 months
however, Jack was asked to stay a bit longer to aid with the next class. (10:20)
Next he was sent to Illinois where he flew several rigorous flying tests. (11:50)
Every 3rd week during training at Illinois the men were given some time off. (12:25)
The men attended the school in the group called a class. 90 percent of the men completed the
training. (13:10)
All the men Jack trained with were college graduates. (13:44)
After the elimination camp he had some leave that he spent in Grand Rapids before being
assigned the Corpus Christi, Texas, for more training. (14:05)
�
The men trained in flight routines such as acrobatics. The men got to select the plane they
wanted to go into after training. This included scouts, bombers, torpedo planes, and flying
boats. (15:38)
After receiving his wings Jack was to begin service as a torpedo bomber. (16:38)
Training on the TBF (16:40)
He flew a TBF (Avenger). In his training with this air craft he was not flying with an instructor.
(16:52)
“TB” stood for Torpedo Bomber where as the third letter the “F” refers to the manufacturer.
(18:55)
There were three men in a crew of a TBF, a pilot, a gunner, and a radioman in the rear of the air
craft. (20:30)
He trained on the Avenger in Florida for 6 weeks. He was then told to go to Martha’s Vineyard to
join Carrier Air Group 83. (22:11)
The men did a lot of practice night flying. (22:45)
Once arriving with the squadron he was assigned to train with them. (23:15)
Aboard ship there were 15 torpedo bombers, 15 dive bombers 30 F4Us (Corsairs) and 30 F6Fs
(Hellcats) and a night group. (24:15)
He was then based in Massachusetts for 3 months after leaving Martha’s Vineyard. (24:38)
He was than given the assignment in mid 1944 to escort ships across the Atlantic. (24:52)
The men carried depth charges on the escort missions. (25:48)
Aboard ship Jack was given his own aircraft. (26:40)
In training the men did carrier landings on old ships in a bay. The men had to make 6 landings.
(27:15)
The men stayed in small huts while stationed in Massachusetts. (29:32)
The men had gunnery practice. This was when the men were allowed to fire from their turrets.
The aircraft also dropped firecrackers rather than actual bombs. (30:30)
Because some cities were on blacked out in 1944 the men often navigated by following the
skipper in a formation. The pilots also used stars to navigate. (32:00)
There were a few pilots lost in training. (33:34)
There were not very men in his squadron that were shot down, but some men did have to ditch
their planes. (34:35)
The only problem Jack had with his air craft was a hydraulic leak. (35:38)
Voyage to the Pacific (35:59)
After his service as an escort Jack was than assigned to the Pacific. He wasn’t given leave before
being sent to Hawaii. (36:25)
The men had 5 days to get to California. Most men took the train. (36:55)
The carrier arrived in Maui Hawaii. The time there was very nice. (37:52)
In Hawaii the men did navigation and group work. (38:20)
The ship than sent to Ulithi (Caroline Islands) where there was an anchorage with approx. 400
ships. (38:54)
He was in Ulithi in February of 1945 prior to the Iwo Jima Landing. (40:28)
The first military target Jack had was Okinawa and the islands surrounding it. (40:45)
�Tour in the Pacific (41:00)
The ship and the pilots were constantly being given new equipment such as aircraft and parts.
(41:20)
In Iwo Jima the Pilots were instructed to bomb the island to shake the Japanese out of their
tunnels. (42:30)
He was assigned to attack an airfield in Japan. (43:06)
The bombers had fighter protection. They did come under fire by flak while attacking the
airfield. (43:20)
The men than focused on Okinawa. The men were given a grid that had particular targets
assigned on it. (43:02)
While aboard ship there were 3 near misses that his aircraft carrier had from a Kamikaze.
(46:30)
Any time after the pilots made a strike the men were required to contact the ACI (Aircraft
Combat Intelligence). (48:05)
Once while in Okinawa Jack went on shore for a joint Marine Navy mission. (49:38)
The men were flying approx. every day (weather permitting). (51:00)
Jack flew 52 missions. (51:17)
While being readied one morning for takeoff the ship received word that Japanese naval ships
(the group that included the battleship Yamato) were approaching. Jack and the other pilots
then had their planes fitted with torpedoes. Jack launched ed his one torpedo and 8 rockets.
52:00)
All the pilots returned from this attack. The attack lasted 45 seconds. (57:12)
He was awarded 3 distinguished flying crosses. He received 2 of them for attacks on Japan.
(58:27)
On 2-3 occasions Jack was encountered by Japanese fighters but these were intercepted by U.S.
fighters who accompanied the bombers. (1:00:40)
Jack’s gunner never fired at an aircraft. Jack did instruct him to fire during dive bombing runs.
(1:02:43)
The pilots were instructed to bomb primarily airfields and warehouses when over Japan.
(1:03:24)
He recalled seeing the Japanese using florescent ammunition. The sailors commented that it
looked like Christmas. (1:03:35)
After 79 missions on the carrier the ship anchored on Ulithi in the summer of 1945 and the men
were given R&R. (1:07:02)
In the summer of 1945 Jack was a Captain. (1:08:20)
The End of the War (Late Summer 1945)
When the war ended Jack was flying a mission to attack an electric plant in Japan. The men were
given a message while traveling to the target to return to base and not to attack the targets.
(1:08:45)
While traveling back to the aircraft carrier, Jack and the bombers with him dropped their bombs
and rockets into the ocean. (1:10:45)
While flying over Japan there was obvious evidence of fire bombing. (1:10:55)
Immediately after the war ended the men began flying missions to relieve prisoner of war
camps. (1:12:16)
�
He also dropped packages with food and cigarettes to men. (1:12:40)
Jack had not heard of the Atomic bomb dropping before hearing of the surrender. (1:14:26)
While dropping supplies after the war, Jack’s squadrons were going in and out of an airfield in
Japan. (1:15:26)
He never left the airfield and saw no Japanese civilians. (1:16:35)
The carrier Jack served on was one of the first ships relieved of duty on September 2nd 1945. The
ship was then sent to Seattle Washington. (1:17:07)
150 miles off shore the planes were sent off the carrier because the aircrafts and the aircraft
carrier were going to 2 separate locations. (1:18:06)
The men were aloud 2 phone calls, 1 minute each, after arriving in Seattle. (1:18:56)
Jack was in Inactive duty for 10 years following the war. (1:19:45)
Jack was offered a job in Florida training South American Pilots but declined it. (1:20:00)
Jacks plane was named the Cultured Vulture. (1:20:40)
Life after Service (1:21:12)
He studied history and English in college. Jack attempted to get into graduate school but was
unable to. (1:22:45)
Jack than began working in insurance. (1:23:30)
Jack retired in 1982. (1:24:12)
Thoughts on Service (1:25:00)
Jack hated war as a result of experiencing it. (1:25:09)
The ship would resupply every 3 days. (1:26:00)
While supplying aircraft would tow targets for the ships to practice on. Jack was hit and almost
shot down when doing these exercises. (1:27:00)
30 Japanese aircraft were shot down in the fleet. (1:30:19)
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
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RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Baas, Jack (Interview outline and video), 2011
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Baas, Jack
Description
An account of the resource
Jack Baas, Born in Grand Rapids, Michigan in 1920, enlisted in the Navy shortly after Pearl Harbor. Initially, he was initially allowed to return to college to finish his senior year, but before the term ended, he was sent to Mississippi to begin training. He qualified as a Navy pilot and was given his choice of naval aircraft (other than fighters), and trained on the TBF Avenger Torpedo Bomber. He did carrier training and flew patrols off the Massachusetts coast in 1944 and operated off of an escort carrier with an Atlantic convoy, and then was sent to the Pacific early in 1945. Assigned to Carrier Group 83, he flew missions over Iwo Jima, Okinawa and Japan, and participated in the attack on the Japanese battleship Yamato as it attempted to reach Okinawa.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American
United States. Navy
United States. Naval Reserve
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
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2011-11-22
Identifier
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BaasJ1327V
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Format
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application/pdf
video/mp4
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c4a40b71f07a637050aef53d9d57f00f.mp4
4a6af998f77663c25296b011a20be4e1
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/24a31e03c4899ec0a15e6a813693dca9.pdf
87577365de8f7070b7b64fb87afb21e7
PDF Text
Text
ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW
JANE JACOBS BADINI
Women in Baseball
Born: Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio June 16, 1924
Resides:
Interviewed by: Frank Boring, GVSU Veterans History Project, August 5, 2010, Detroit,
MI at the All American Girls Professional Baseball League reunion.
Transcribed by: Joan Raymer, April 26, 2011
Interviewer: “Let‟s start with your full name and where and when were you born?”
My name is Jane Janette Jacobs. I was born in Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio at 1836 4th Street.
Interviewer: “When were you born?”
I was born June 16, 1924
Interviewer: “What was your early childhood like?”
Well, I thought it was pretty good, I don’t know if you’d like to—my childhood—my
mother found out when I was four years old that I was blind in my left eye, but I had—
blind from birth and she was over protective, really over protective of me and everything.
27:53 We had—in the back yard there was a lot of property there and that’s where we
played baseball and playing there, but I was the only girl. All the rest of them were guys.
Interviewer: “Now, this is a neighborhood? A city neighborhood?”
Yes, oh yeah
Interviewer: “All right, so neighborhood kids kind of got together in a vacant lot to
play ball?”
Yeah, we just played and enjoyed ourselves.
Interviewer: “So, you had a baseball, a bat, you had gloves?”
Yes
Interviewer: “How did you get your equipment? Did your parent buy it?”
1
�I had two older brothers.
Interviewer: “Ah”
They were baseball players and my older brother—at one time both my brothers were
pitchers, and then my one brother, well they both were very, very good, but my one
brother was an exceptionally good batter, so they asked him not to pitch anymore because
they were going to use him for a batter all the time, but my brother Chuck, he pitched and
he was terrific, terrific. 29:16 That’s how that was broke up, and then they got so nice
with me because they wanted to teach me and since I was a tomboy you know. That’s
what they referred to you then when you were out with just a bunch of guys, and there I
was, the only girl.
Interviewer: “How was school for you?”
School? It was good; I got good grades and everything in school.
Interviewer: “So the baseball part was just like any other kid? It was just after
school you played baseball?”
Yes
Interviewer: “What position did you play back then?” 29:57
Oh, I was always a pitcher.
Interviewer: “Always a pitcher?‟
Yeah, my brothers would show me.
Interviewer: “Were you playing softball or baseball?”
Well, at that time we were playing softball.
Interviewer: “So, it was underhand?”
Oh yes
2
�Interviewer: “Did you continue playing into high school?”
Yes, I played in high school and I remember our gym teacher said, “Jane, let them hit the
ball”, and I said, “no, I don’t think so”, and the gym teacher said, “ you know you are
supposed to win if you can”, and I said, “if I let them hit the ball it’s not going to be
good”, so the teacher said, “let them hit it anyway”, and I said, “no, no, I can’t do that”.
30:45
Interviewer: “How—your high school had a baseball team?”
It was gym really because we didn’t have much of that then.
Interviewer: “Ok, how come you were playing? You‟re a girl, how could you be
playing baseball in high school?”
Well, that’s the way it was. I think it was once a week, to tell you the truth. It wasn’t
like playing every day.
Interviewer: “It wasn‟t a formal team?”
No, it wasn’t a regular baseball team, no.
Interviewer: “So you had it almost like before were you had the neighborhood kids
play baseball, in high school you just played baseball?”
Yeah, right
Interviewer: “Ok, all right, when did you first hear about the opportunity for an all
American Girls Professional Baseball League? How did you hear about that?”
Well, I heard when I played amateur ball when I was sixteen and got terrific—I was
really good, I think I had twenty-four wins and either twenty-four or twenty-six, and four
losses. 31:54 We had twins that played on the team then and their dad was the manager,
I think that’s what you called them in those days, and that’s how I got to play.
3
�Interviewer: “So you—this is still during high school that you‟re playing in this
amateur league, ok. Did your parent like the idea of you playing baseball like
that?”
Well, my mom didn’t know anything about baseball, and oh my gosh, my dad was a
pitcher and like I say, my brother was a pitcher and he changed to be a batter.
Interviewer: “But they encouraged you?”
Oh yeah, my mom didn’t care that much, but my dad sure did.
Interviewer: “Well good, so you‟re playing with this amateur league and somebody
sees you, is that how it worked out?” 32:53
Yeah, they started to send scouts you know.
Interviewer: “What year was this?”
Well, they sent scouts when I was—that was a couple of years later. It was just before—
when they started the league it was 1943.
Interviewer: “1943, so when did you actually—“
We had teams and we traveled to different little cities.
Interviewer: “Ok, the scout came around and saw you play—“
Yeah, then I went to Chicago.
Interviewer: “So you were invited to go to tryouts?”
Yes, right
Interviewer: “How did you get there?”
By train
Interviewer: “Train, ok, were you by yourself?”
Yes, at that particular time I was.
4
�Interviewer: “Had you ever traveled very far before?” 33:57
No, no it was completely different back then you know.
Interviewer: “What was the experience of taking the train trip out to Chicago for
the tryouts like?”
Well, I was kind of scared to tell you the truth, because I hadn’t been out like that. It was
interesting, when we got there they had someone meet us and we tried out at Wrigley
Field in Chicago. We were a little nervous because we didn’t know whether we were
going to make it or not, but I made it immediately.
Interviewer: „What was that experience like of walking onto the field. Were there
girls out there in uniforms already playing?”
No, we didn’t have uniforms yet because we had to make the teams and I don’t know
what they called the teams because they hadn’t organized the teams yet.
Interviewer: “So what were the tryouts like? Did they have you field balls? Were
they hitting balls to you? Were you catching? What were the tryouts?”
I was just pitching because I wasn’t very good as a fielder you know. 35:00
Interviewer: “So you were pitching and other girls would go up to the mound and
they would pitch and scouts were watching?”
We were playing in different positions in different places you know.
Interviewer: “Did you find out that day that you got in?”
I don’t think we found out that day. It seems to me that it was, I hope I’m not wrong, but
I think it was about a week before we heard because there were others that had to tryout
with yet and that took a little time.
Interviewer: “So, were you still in Chicago or did you come back home?”
5
�I came back home.
Interviewer: “So, they contacted you at home?”
Yes
Interviewer: “Tell me about getting that, it must have been a letter in the mail,
huh?” 35:52
It could have been a telephone call or something. So, we had the tryout and everything
and there were only four teams when it first started in 1943, and like I said, in the
beginning I went there and made the team real good and I got real sick.
Interviewer: “Got sick?”
Well, I got the Mumps and then I was a little afraid because I had to stay behind. I
wasn’t use to that straying home and not going out anywhere. That was my first trip that
I took in my life, so I went home and instead of going back, which I could have, I just oh
no, I didn’t feel like it. Then I got the opportunity and got a contract and everything to
come the following year. 37:00
Interviewer: “Nobody had any problem with the fact that you were blind in one
eye?”
They didn’t know it and this is a good story. I thought well, I’m not going to tell them
I’m blind in one eye, and nobody knew it, even my friends, and I had a lot of friends and
everything. One day Bob Knolls, he came to interview me after the picture was shown
because I was taken on sick leave in a Limousine and all that so, anyway what was the
question again?
Interviewer: “That they didn‟t know that you were blind in one eye, yeah. You
mean the whole time you were playing baseball people didn‟t know?”
6
�No, even my friends because I never told them see. 37:58 When Bob was interviewing
me and everything, I said, “Bob, I’ll tell you one thing, but I don’t want you to be writing
this up”, I said, “I was blind in one eye. I was born blind.”, and he said, “What?”, and I
said, “Yeah”, and he said, “you could do a lot of good for kids that have a handicap.
Would you please allow me to use this as a fact?” He said, “you will be surprised how
much it helps kids”, which I was in the future, because they held them back you see.
Through that kids started to do whatever they could.
Interviewer: “So you tried out and what team did you get on?”
I got on the Racine Belles and I played for two years with the Belles.
Interviewer: “That meant that you had to move to Racine, so your parents were ok
with your going?”
Yeah, we stayed in people’s homes out there rather than staying in a hotel.
Interviewer: “Hotels, right, did you have to go through that charm school?”
Oh yes, I went through the charm school, and in fact there’s a write-up in the paper. You
have one of the papers, don’t you?
Interviewer: “Tell us about that.”
Well, we weren’t that way, we were a little—we just didn’t like that you know because
we had to use make-up and everything and we didn’t like it.
Interviewer: “What were some of the things they had you do? In the movie they
show a book on the head.”
I was going to say, we had to walk a certain way and you couldn’t be tomboyish or
anything like that because you had to be a young lady, so I thought it was terrible. 40:05
I said, “my God it was terrible” Am I allowed to say “My God?”
7
�Interviewer: “So the basic idea was that you had to act like a lady , so you had to sit
a certain way and you had to eat a certain way and they taught you how to use the
knife and the fork?”
Well, they didn’t do that, but don’t slop it.
Interviewer: “You say that you really didn‟t like it, the girls didn‟t really like it, but
it was part of what you had to do.”
You had to do it, you had no choice, and we just had to.
Interviewer: “So, did that just happen? Did they do the charm school just a day or
did they do it every day for a period of time?”
For a while, but I truthfully don’t remember.
Interviewer: “So, it wasn‟t just a one day thing, you had to go in there and they
taught you one thing and then they taught you another thing?
Yes
Interviewer: Ok, alright, how was your first season?” 41:06
Well, the first season I did pretty good you know.
Interviewer: “You were a rookie, right?”
Yeah, right
Interviewer: “Did you sit on the bench very much the first year?”
I was right in there pretty much you know. As you will see by the card my earned run
average was terrific, but if they didn’t get runs for you, you couldn’t win the game, right?
Interviewer: “Oh yeah, and you started out as a pitcher, you were first string
pitcher?”
8
�Well, we had I don’t know how many pitchers because you had a pretty good number of
games you had to play, so we took our turns. 42:00
Interviewer: “You had home games and you had road trip games. How were the
road trips?”
They were good and we traveled the road trips by bus and stayed in hotels, but we stayed
in the people’s homes there in Racine.
Interviewer: “What did you think of the uniform?”
Well, it was different you know, but we had to wear them, we had no choice, absolutely
no choice.
Interviewer: “Several of the girls said they had to adjust the dresses or skirts, or
whatnot, because it‟s difficult to play ball that way. Did you do anything like that
with your uniform?”
If you notice in the pictures—I think it shows in the picture where—you know they were
so full here they got in out way as we pitched, so it shows the uniform where we had to
pin it down, so when we came through with the ball we weren’t in touch with the
material. 43:07
Interviewer: “Yeah, so you started out playing underhand, right?”
Oh yeah,
Interviewer: “And it was a softball size?”
A twelve inch, yeah.
Interviewer: “You were already use to doing that though.”
Yeah
Interviewer: “Now after your first season, you came back home?”
9
�Oh yes, at the end of the season, yeah, I came back home again.
Interviewer: “And what did you do?”
Well eventually—after I retired, I retired after—I could have played—see, I played four
years. I had a contract to go to the fifth, but my statistics, and I don’t mean to be
bragging on you, but it was so good that the talk went through my mind that if I have a
bad season I’m going to ruin everything, and this way I’m going out—and you will see
the statistics, they were very good, and I didn’t want to do that, so I had the contract
signed and everything and I said I wasn’t going to play any more and this was the end of
my professional ball. 44:22
Interviewer: “We‟ll get back to that later on, but I want to get back to that first
season. You played out the season, and then you came back home. Did you move
back in with your parents or did you have to work?”
I was with my parents you know.
Interviewer: “Did you have to work?”
I worked for Woolworth’s down on Front Street in Cuyahoga Falls. I started working
and you know.
Interviewer: “Did they know you were a baseball player?”
Yeah, they did
Interviewer: “Were you kind of a local celebrity?” 45:00
Well, we didn’t do that much celebrity at that time you know.
Interviewer: “But it was unusual for a girl to be playing professional baseball.”
Yes it was.
10
�Interviewer: “So the second season comes along and you get another contract
playing for the same team?”
Yes
Interviewer: “So you move to Racine, and did you stay in the same house?”
Yes, we were friends you know. The people, Conrad was their name, and they were
just—they treated me so great. When we had a few days off or anything, and they would
go out of town, they took me right with them and we enjoyed it, and we became—they
had two daughters and even after I retired and everything—when I was playing ball the
daughter always came to watch and after I retired they kept writing to me and we wrote
back and forth—it was great. 46:01
Interviewer: “How was your second season? You‟re not a rookie anymore.”
No I wasn’t, but I was treated great, absolutely great and that’s what everyone else is
saying.
Interviewer: “Are there any highlights or games that you remember that were
exceptional? You said that you were a pretty good pitcher.”
I was a good pitcher. The thing, the big thing that was really something was that I was
allowed to bat. You know my left eye was blind and everything and I hit a home run.
Unbelievable, I couldn’t believe it myself you know. That drew a lot of attention.
Interviewer: “That‟s wonderful, that‟s wonderful. Sp then you‟re offered a third
season, but this time you‟re playing with a different team?”
Yes, because they were trying to equalize the teams and see what you could do, so I
played the whole year with them and then I got to go back to Racine, which really tickled
me because I loved playing with Racine. 47:11
11
�Interviewer: “What was the other team you played with?”
Peoria
Interviewer: “Peoria, ok. That was the third year you went to Peoria?”
Yes
Interviewer: “Ok, alright”
Peoria, and then back to Racine again, and then I quit.
Interviewer: “Was there a big difference in the playing from Racine to Peoria?”
No, it was pretty much the same thing.
Interviewer: “Were you still pitching underhand?”
Yes, oh yes
Interviewer: “So the side arm didn‟t come until later?”
Yeah, I don’t know how many years later.
Interviewer: “How were the fans?”
Wonderful, oh my goodness, they couldn’t do enough for us. They would invite us to
their homes, the whole team they would have coming to their home. They would invite
us and just be wonderful. 48:04
Interviewer: “Now the beginning of the league, at least some of the stories were that
the fans kind of thought it was a novelty, these girls playing baseball, did you
experience that too?”
A little, yeah
Interviewer: “But soon, playing ball, they realized these are good players?”
Right, yes they did.
12
�Interviewer: “So, in your third season, you‟re playing once again, were you
thinking about this as a career?”
No, never once
Interviewer: “You did it because it was fun and they were paying you.”
Yeah, I’ll tell yeah, we made a big, big salary. We got fifty dollars a week.
Interviewer: “Were you able to send some money home?”
Yeah, because when I grew up we didn’t have as much or anything else. We were kind
of hard up and I always thought of my parents and sent a little bit of money.
Interviewer: “At that stage in your life, what did you think you wanted to do?
You‟re playing baseball and you‟re getting paid, but what is it you wanted to do?”
49:13
I had an idea that I wanted to go into my own little business at that young age and that’s
exactly—I worked for Acme for a while and then I thought, “ well it’s about time that I
start”, so I went around to the houses and picked up junk and I went into the dry cleaning
business although I put it out to be done by other businesses that were doing it and I built
a pretty darn good business. First I had a car and when I got a little money, I got a truck
you know and I went around and gosh, the people were wonderful to me, they were. It
was unusual to have a girl dry cleaner. 50:10
Interviewer: “So, your fourth year comes along and you‟re still playing with
Racine, but you made a very important decision?”
Yes I did, at the end.
Interviewer: “Could you tell us—how did you come to that decision?”
13
�Well, just like I mentioned, I had very good statistics and man, they were great, for that
time they were, and I got home and thought, “What if I have a bad year?” So, that’s
when I quit. I worked around a little bit at stores like Acme you know, and then I
thought, “I’m going into my own business”, and started a route of dry cleaning and I
rented a little shop on Tallmadge Road in Cuyahoga Falls. Believe me or not, but I
bought the place after a couple of years and I still have the place and that’s the story.
51:23
Interviewer: “Did you miss it, baseball?”
Yeah, because we weren’t allowed to play on another team because we were considered
professionals, but my brother Chuck, he was a—he worked for plumbing and heating,
and they always had—every year they had a little shindig going on and they said,
“Chuck, we want your sister to come down here and pitch for us, you know, we’ve never
had any audience of any kind”, and he said, “I’m sure she will”, and so I did and
eventually I was the CEO officer at the heating and plumbing for twenty years and I
made a lot of friends down there because I just wasn’t allowed to play any more. 52:22 I
had customers from there and it worked out real good.
Interviewer: “What were some of the highlights? I mean, you get together with
these gals for these reunions and what stories do you tell? A no hitter or?”
The biggest thing for me that I tell, was hitting that one home run. That’s the greatest
thing and no one believes it hardly because I was a lousy batter.
Interviewer: “Most pitchers are.”
Yeah
14
�Interviewer: “I was a pitcher too, in little league, and my claim to fame is that I got
a homerun on a bunt.”
On a bunt?
Interviewer: “That‟s how bad the other team was, so I can appreciate your
homerun there. I only had one in my life too. 53:24 Did you talk about being a
professional baseball player after you left the league and were working in the dry
cleaning?”
No, because my intention was—we grew up poor, my family and my mom and dad had
very little, and I wanted to do something where I could help my mom, I had the greatest
mom in the world, absolutely, the super greatest mom in the world. We didn’t have
much, but we had respect for each other and loved each other you know and we kind of
went along that way. 54:03
Interviewer: “So, you were able to help support her?”
Oh yes, because I didn’t get married until I was forty-nine, so that was a long way to go.
Interviewer: “But you were a career woman I guess, from early on, and there
weren‟t many career women around then.” 54:16
No there weren’t
Interviewer: “did you already have that kind of drive before you played
professional baseball or did professional baseball kind of help you to make that
move into that?”
I never thought of that and I wanted my mom to have it good because she was such a
good soul. A terrific lady and my drive was to do something for my mom, and I did.
Interviewer: “What did those four years do for you, playing baseball?”
15
�Well, I think it gave you a lot of—what it is when you feel good about yourself?
Interviewer: “Confidence?”
Yes, that’s it
Interviewer: “Because you were a young girl.”
Oh yeah
Interviewer: “You played ball and you felt a little more confident.”
Oh my goodness, yeah, and the fans, it was unbelievable; they lined up just to get your
autograph. 55:20 That went on for the four years that I played.
Interviewer: “Did you have fans that kind of picked you out and you were their
favorite?”
Well, yes, I don’t want to brag, but I’m not going to lie either. Oh, yeah, oh my goodness
yes, they invited us out for dinner and everything, and it was really nice.
Interviewer: „so you didn‟t really talk about the league, you didn‟t talk about being
in baseball for many, many years?”
Oh no, and I wasn’t allowed to play amateurs and it died out.
Interviewer: “Right, but in terms of that part of your life, you were moving on and
you were going to go and do other things.”
Yes 56:08
Interviewer: “When did that change?”
Well, it changed not too many years afterwards because I was always thinking, in my
mind, what could I do to help my mom because she was such a good, good woman, so
she could have a little better life than what she had, and yet, I never wanted to sound like
I was bragging about anything because there was much, much love among us.
16
�Interviewer: “Did you know when the league ended? Did you see the newspapers
or did you know in 1954 that it was all over with?”
I don’t think I knew right away. I was out of there and I didn’t pay much attention to it.
57:02
Interviewer: “Did you keep in contact at all with any of the girls that you played
with?”
Eventually I did, but mostly with the family I stayed with. I was, oh my goodness,
because we played near San Francisco, I got to love San Francisco because I went out
there so much to see them and everything, and I would go out four times a year. It was
only for a few days or a week and they always wanted me to come to their house and they
would take me somewhere. We would go somewhere, you know, to enjoy ourselves. I
was just great and I don’t know if I’m explaining it right or not.
Interviewer: “Well, I think you‟ve seemed to developed a close and almost second
family.”
Yes, I did and I called them mom and pop and they wanted me to.
Interviewer: “Did they have any opinion about your quitting baseball?” 58:01
Well, a lot of people didn’t want me to quit. They said they would love to see me stay
and everything, but I just had a little bit different things I wanted to do in my life.
Interviewer: “So you never saw baseball as a career?”
Oh no, I never did and like I said, it did a lot of good after I told Bob Knolls that I was
blind and he, and different ones, said that I have helped the kids through what I had said.
There were some kids that could come and they wouldn’t be made fun of. See, I use to
be called “four eyes’ all the time in grade school and that made me mad, so what I would
17
�do, because I had to wear glasses—a lot of kids had to pass my home to school from
where I lived there was always a certain bunch you know. 59:10 It was “hello four
eyes”, and everything and when they got to my house I said, “I’ll be out in a minute”, and
I took off my glasses because I couldn’t afford to have them broke, and I would go out
and say, “now call me four eyes”, and we had a few fights and I won.
Interviewer: “Did you go to the first reunion, the All American Girls reunion?”
I probably did, but truthfully, I can’t remember.
Interviewer: “But you had some interest to want to see those girls again?”
Oh my gosh, yeah
Interviewer: “What changed? Was it just age? You were getting older and looking
back on that time? :03 If it was only four years of your life, and you certainly
accomplished a lot more afterwards, why would you be interested in getting back
together with these people?”
Because I had a good relationship with them and they treated me so good. They treated
me like a daughter instead of somebody just coming into the house.
Interviewer: “I mean with the teams. Going to the reunions with the teams.”
Well, I didn’t go to that many though.
Interviewer: “Did the movie change anything for you? You saw the movie?”
Well, I saw it and I thought it was pretty neat, that was my impression.
Interviewer: “How did you see it? Did you see it in a movie theater?”
I was picked up by what do you call it?
Interviewer: “A limousine?”
A limousine, yeah
18
�Interviewer: “Who arranged for that?”
Evidently before it came out we were invited to the premier. 1:28
Interviewer: “Tell that story, tell that story, yeah.”
That was great and we were in a theater of some sort, I think it was a theater.
Interviewer: “Had you ever been in a limousine before?"
No
Interviewer: “Tell the story.”
I thought, “that can’t be me going in a limousine like that”, and then they were so great to
me, it was just marvelous, and I thought, “My goodness, what’s happening?” Everything
was just great and I think you have a picture of it there. 2:08
Interviewer: “So you arrive in a limousine at the theater and?”
Everything—there was a lot of talking going on and they were just good to me and let me
know that I was appreciated.
Interviewer: “What did you think of the movie? Did you like it?”
Yeah, it was pretty good, but Tom Hanks, he stretched it a little bit you know and I
wasn’t a stretcher.
Interviewer: “A lot of the girls say the movie changed everything and people
suddenly knew who you guys were.”
Yes it did and I was going to get to that and it made a really great name for all of us.
3:05 We were highly respected and of course when the boys came back from the war,
and they had been in for quite a while then, but that’s what broke it up, the boys coming
back.
19
�Interviewer: “What do you think about all this excitement? You‟re being treated,
in many ways, like movie stars.”
Yes we were treated like movie stars.
Interviewer: “And you still are.”
Yes, it’s unbelievable to think that something like that could happen.
Interviewer: “why do you think there‟s all this excitement? You only played four
year, why do you think people get so excited about this?”
I don’t think the average person knew how well women could play, and they found out
there was a lot going on there, they can really play good. We would slide into bases, but
they didn’t want the pitcher to slide and get hurt, but that’s how I messed my knee up.
4:11 You have so much interest in the game that you don’t want to be out if you can
slide and be safe. Does that make sense to you?
Interviewer: “Yeah, yeah, one of the husbands of one of the players said he never
got an opportunity to see his wife play until much later and like you said, you
couldn‟t just go off and spend money going to see a baseball game, but he finally got
a chance to see her and he said he had known her, her whole life, but he never
realized she was such a good ball player.”
Yes
Interviewer: “So, I guess that‟s what the fans saw too, they saw a good baseball
game, and you guys were pretty good at what you did.”
We thought we were without being smart. I was never a bragger, but when they would
say, “boy, that was a great game”, I would say, “Thank you”, it was pretty good wasn’t
it?” 5:16
20
�Interviewer: “You went on to accomplish some major goals that you want to take
care of your mother, you wanted to gain security, but if you look back on your
whole life, where do those four years fit in? How important were they to you?”
I think they were very important to me because they gave me a start. Fifty bucks a week,
and the one manager we had, he said, and I never told this to people because I thought it
sounded like bragging, he said I should be making more than the fifty dollars that
everybody was making. He raised my pay every week, but I forget if it was seventy or
seventy-five dollars, so I don’t want to say it was seventy-five if it was seventy, but it
was one of the two definitely. 6:16 Oh my gosh, can you imagine getting that, that early
in life? To make that much? I called home and oh my, everybody was happy.
Interviewer: “one of the other questions that I have—the phenomenon that the
movie created, put you in a whole different position than you were before. You
were a ball player and now you‟re part of American history. I know you didn‟t
think about it at the time, but how do you reflect on it now? People are saying to
you that this is an important part of American history.”
Yes, well, my first impression was, “I can’t believe it, are they saying that you’re part of
history because of baseball?” At first I thought it had to be a dream and it’s super. 7:22
Interviewer: “It‟s kind of hard to think it‟s a dream when you come to these
reunions.”
My gosh, we are treated so great, it’s wonderful, but that’s what you think unless you’re a
big bragger.
Interviewer: “There‟s a big difference between bragging and just telling the truth
and that‟s what it really comes down to and that‟s why I‟m here. I‟m not asking
21
�you to brag, I just want you to tell what you did and if that sounds like bragging to
you, it‟s not bragging to me, I‟ll tell you that because you did it and there‟s proof.
We know what all of you accomplished.”
Yes
Interviewer: “One of the main reasons I decided to do this project was because I
saw some film footage of the Grand Rapids reunion in which a number of you were
signing autographs and there‟s a line of little girls with their mothers holding on to
them. What do you say to the little girls? What is the message you have for these
younger girls that you see at these reunions?” 8:22
My thought is to always do the best you can for everything and when you do the best you
can you will succeed. You might not be the best, but you won’t be the worst. I think that
explains it.
Interviewer: “There is something I want to talk about and it‟s major. It‟s
something that happened to you and I don‟t even know you and yet I believe this.
When that reporter came out and you revealed for the first time about your eye,
why did you decide, at that point, you wanted to tell people?” 9:13
Because I wanted to let him know that I didn’t let that interfere and that I didn’t just lay
down and forget about life and want people to be sorry for you. I never, never, never
wanted people to feel sorry for me because that would have killed me. So, I went on all
those years and when Bob Knoll put it in the Beacon Journal he said, “I’m telling you
right now Jane, you’re doing the biggest favor for kids to be able to make an adjustment”,
and it did, it did. I got an awful lot of publicity on that and the parents thought it was
22
�super great. It pleased me very much because I felt like I was a part of helping kids.
10:14
Interviewer: “How do your teammates, obviously you‟re not playing anymore, none
of them knew, right?”
No, none of my best friends and everything and when this all came out in the Beacon
Journal they said, “Jane, all the years we’ve known you and you never said anything”,
and I said, “well, what’s to say, I didn’t want anybody feeling sorry for me”, and I said,
“Can you imagine, all I had to do was make an error”, and you’re dead. That was about
it, I just didn’t want anybody to feel sorry for me and say, “oh well”, and to be extra nice
to me because I was that way. I guess that’s it. 11:04
Interviewer: ”How difficult was it playing with one eye?”
I never even considered it because I just went on and hoped to do the best I can. I’m not
a religious nut or anything, but I thank God so many times that I was allowed to just get
started and my big, big thrill was that kids who never had a chance at least get a chance,
and that did something to my whole body and I felt great.
Interviewer: “Now, if this is getting too personal you don‟t have to say anything,
but you said you took until you were forty-eight until you got married.”
Forty-nine
Interviewer: “Forty-nine, why this guy?”
I had my dry cleaning business going and I was golfing and this guy ended up, he use to
watch me golf, so he asked the guy that owns Tommy’s Café there in the falls who that
lady over there was and he said, “I know her, that’s Jane Badini”, and he said, “she has a
dry cleaning shop”, and he said that he would like to talk to me and take me out, so he
23
�came over to my shop and started bringing in his dry cleaning and laundry and
everything. 12:50 He started talking with me and I had talked with him a few times and
a friend of mine said, “Jane, he’s a nice guy and when you feel like it, he wants you to go
out with him”. I said, “thanks a lot”, so when he came in, and I don’t know how many
times he asked me out, so after I knew that he was a nice guy, he came in and said, “Will
you please go out on a date with me?” I said, “sure I will”, and we went out and we just
started going together and everything clicked and we got married.
Interviewer: “Wonderful, that‟s wonderful. I have one story that might top that
one. A very good friend of mine, who is a volunteer who works on this Library of
congress project and he‟s eighty years old now I think. He did the same thing, his
wife worked in a bakery and he came in and asked her out and she said, “no, no,
I‟m too busy”, so one day he came in with a used calendar and he said, “find one
day on here”, and they got married. 14:07
That’s great, that’s nice.
Interviewer: “They‟re still together and I love that story.”
Have you ever heard of Tommy’s Café years ago in Cuyahoga Falls?
Interviewer: “No”
He worked for Tommy and he was next to the younger Tommy and the next man in the
link.
Interviewer: “Did you tell him about your baseball career?”
No, oh no, I never did, I mean it took a long time because I never wanted anybody to
think I was bragging and I just was sincere about that. I didn’t want anybody to like me
because I was a ball player and if you’re going to like me, like me for who I am.
24
�Interviewer: “Well, I think you‟re real easy to like.”
Oh, thank you so much, I appreciate that.
Interviewer: “This was a wonderful, wonderful time with you and thank you.”
15:06
Thank you very much.
25
�26
�
Dublin Core
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Title
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All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a>
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
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Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Oral history
Baseball players--Minnesota
Baseball players--Indiana
Baseball players--Wisconsin
Baseball players--Michigan
Baseball players--Illinois
Baseball for women--United States
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401
Identifier
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RHC-58
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Language
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eng
Date
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2017-10-02
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
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RHC-58_JBadini
Title
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Badini, Jane Jacobs (Interview transcript and video, 2010)
Creator
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Badini, Jane Jacobs
Description
An account of the resource
Jane Jacobs Badini was born in Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio, in 1924. She grew up playing softball, first with her brothers, and later with organized teams. She was a talented pitcher, and one of the players recruited by the AAGPBL when it was formed in 1943. She played in the league for four years, primarily with Racine, before leaving and starting her own business.
The audio on this recording has significant noise interference.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Video recordings
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Baseball for women--United States
Baseball
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Baseball players--Wisconsin
Baseball players--Illinois
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eng
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
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Moving Image
Text
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mp4
pdf
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World War II
Source
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<a href="http://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a>
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2010-08-05
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a504811e89a273a10fa7e10f0aca097a.pdf
34d859f62d470eb57cc5c25df33d09e9
PDF Text
Text
Young Lords
In Lincoln Park
Interviewee: Luis “Tony” Baez
Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez
Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections
Date: 8/23/2012
Biography and Description
Luis “Tony” Baez arrived in Chicago from Barrio Borinquén of Caguas, Puerto Rico in 1969 and soon
became Minister of Education of the Young Lords. Barrio Borinquén is the first rural community just
outside of Caguas on the same road that leads to Barrio San Salvador. Dr. Baez comes from a Puerto
Rican cuatro playing family, and he also plays guitar. In Puerto Rico, Dr. Baez was also active with the
Puerto Rican Independence Party (PIP), the electoral component of the broad movement in Puerto Rico,
fighting for Puerto Ricans to regain back control of their nation. By 1970, Dr. Baez moved from Chicago
to Milwaukee and set up a Young Lords chapter. They maintained a community office and distributed
the Young Lords Newspaper (that Dr. Baez had also helped to publish while in Chicago), focusing
primarily on neighborhood organizing, community-based programs, and bilingual education. During the
same time, Dr. Baez continued his studies and some years later earned a Ph.D. Today Dr. Baez is
Executive Director of the Council for the Spanish Speaking, Inc. The organization was established in 1964
and is the oldest Latino community-based organization in Milwaukee. The Council serves more than
15,000 individuals, including at risk youth, working families, adult learners and the elderly via subsidized
elderly housing. They also assist with foreclosure counseling, health education, and civic engagement
and mobilization. Dr. Baez is the former Provost and Chief Academic Officer of the Milwaukee Area
Technical College in Wisconsin. He has served as Assistant to the President, Associate Dean of Pre-
�College Programs, Dean of Liberal Arts and Sciences, and Director of Research, Planning and
Development there as well. In the Bronx, New York, Dr. Tony Baez also ser served as Vice-President and
Dean of Faculty at Hostos Community College.
�Transcript
JOSE JIMENEZ:
(inaudible) Testing, one, two, three. Testing, one, two, three.
LUIS BAEZ: Testing, one, two, three. Testing, one, two, three. Can you hear me well?
(break in audio)
JJ:
Okay. Tony, if you can give me your name, your date of birth, and where you
were born?
LB:
I was born in Caguas, Puerto Rico in 1948, and in the Caguas, it has a number of
barrios, and I was in a barrio called Borinquen, close to Salvador, and
Salvador’s, where Cha-Cha Jiménez is from.
JJ:
Okay, San Salvador.
LB:
Yup.
JJ:
[San Salvador?]. And what was the date that you were --?
LB:
September 3, ’48.
JJ:
September what?
LB:
Third. Third.
JJ:
[Third, okay?]. Okay. Okay, so, Borinquen. What was that like? Give me a
description of that.
LB:
Barrio Borinquen in Caguas was a neighborhood that was very active in
[00:01:00] the 1960s because of a lot of things that were happening on the island
that were very political in nature. And I was recruited at that time by groups of
people that were involved with the Puerto Rican Independence Party to be a part
of the youth organizations that were in the area. We were also involved, at that
1
�time, in takeovers, land takeovers, where people were desperate for housing,
and there were large lands that were being used for sugar canes -- fields and for
cattle. And, as sugar cane was dwindling, coming down, those big, huge areas
became empty, and we -JJ:
What year was this?
LB:
This was in the 1960s, 1966 to ’69, more or less. And so, I was recruited --
JJ:
So, there was sugar around there, in --?
LB:
Yeah, there was a lot of sugar in that neighborhood. There was a lot of
[00:02:00] cattle in that neighborhood. The (Spanish) [00:02:02], they produced
milk. They sold milk to the city. And so, there was economy based both on the
sugar cane, tobacco, and cattle. Okay? And my grandfather was the owner of a
piece of land that produced a lot of sugar cane.
JJ:
What was your grandfather’s name?
LB:
[Emilio?] Baez. Emilio Baez, who had been a politician involved in another barrio
of Caguas before he came to Borinquen, and my father was --
JJ:
What kind of politician?
LB:
A local politician. He was a city councilor.
JJ:
City counselor.
LB:
And he lost an election -- he was very disappointed -- in Barrio (inaudible). And
then, he got this piece of land in Borinquen and came over, and he grew a family
there, and my father was the first member of that family out of nine people who
[00:03:00] made it to the Army. He enlisted in the Army, and the family was not
2
�happy with him because he enlisted in the Army. To my fortune, when he came
back because he -JJ:
This is in World War II, or...?
LB:
World War II.
JJ:
Okay.
LB:
Because he had been a soldier, and he had been around, and he had traveled,
and, you know, he had more aspirations for us. There were four boys and one
girl in my family, and he also took us back and forth from back inBarrio Borinquen
to New York as a worker. My mother and he would come and work in the
different industries in New York City, and then they would go back, and it was
almost like an annual thing, so --
JJ:
Like factories, or --?
LB:
Factories and the needle industry.
JJ:
The needle industry.
LB:
A lot of the needle industry.
JJ:
In New York.
LB:
In New York, yeah. And --
JJ:
What were their names?
LB:
[Bernardo?] Baez was my father, who died in [2004?], [00:04:00] and my mother,
who’s still alive, [Maria Isabel?] (inaudible) Baez. And so, they --
JJ:
Your siblings, what were their names?
LB:
Oh, my siblings. One was [José “Tito”?] Baez, who is a cuatrista and pretty well
known in Puerto Rico for a master cuatro player.
3
�JJ:
Tito Baez, mm-hmm.
LB:
Yeah. And my other brother is [Eduardo?].
JJ:
And what does Eduardo do?
LB:
Eduardo is a guitarist. Okay? And a worker ’cause they’re all workers. Tito -José -- for example, who follows me, was working in the public schools and
taking food to the cafeterias, these school cafeterias. (Spanish) [00:04:44], as
they call them. And my sister, [Yolanda?], who was also a laborer. She lived in
[there?]. She lived in New York. She lived in Chicago too. And one brother who
was very active. [00:05:00] We called him [Papo?], and he disappeared one day
during the political process, and we found his body later.
JJ:
Disappeared, and you found his body?
LB:
We found his body in the --
JJ:
So --
LB:
-- beach in (inaudible). Yeah.
JJ:
But, I mean, you know that it had to do with political reasons?
LB:
The suspicion is that it did. Okay? Some people say that maybe he went for a
swim and that happened. Well, he used to work as a swim guard in one of these
places, so that’s unlikely, but my brother was known for his political activism
(overlapping dialogue; inaudible). And he was among the couple people that
stood on the Lares celebration in 1960 -- 1970, actually. Yeah, 1970. And
burned an American flag on top of the US post office. And, after that, he was the
subject of a lot [00:06:00] of persecution, and he came to Milwaukee for a bit,
and he went back, and then he died. So, he died at the age of 26. Okay? So,
4
�my family was sort of like well known in Barrio Borinquen because my father set
up a little store there and a little country bar, and I used to work there with him,
and we went back to Puerto Rico for [a certain point?] when I was in sixth grade.
JJ:
Right there at the entrance, that country bar?
LB:
Yes. It was [just that street?] going into Barrio Borinquen. And the activities of
the family were sort of like well known, and my father --
JJ:
Are they still there? Are there any family members still there?
LB:
Yes. Everybody’s there. Everybody’s there except me.
JJ:
(inaudible).
LB:
Yes, and my father that died. But my father was, you know, more conservative.
He had been a soldier, and he was member of -- he was sort of like a follower of
the Republican party in Puerto [00:07:00] Rico, so I had my disagreements with
my father, and I had very strong disagreements, like most people in Puerto Rico.
JJ:
Yeah, my father was (overlapping dialogue; inaudible).
LB:
Exactly. In the same house, we have people who are Republicans, Populares.
In my house, my father was Republican, my mother was Popular, and I was
Independentista, you know? And we used to have these discussions about party
lines and our own ideological lines because that’s the nature of Puerto Rico for a
long time. Since the Americans came in 1898, there has been this whole
movement around either becoming sort of stabilized as a colonial state, like the
Populares did, particularly since the ’40s and the ’50s, or become a state of the
United States, like they are still trying to make Puerto Rico a state even though
5
�the US doesn’t want us. And then, the groups [00:08:00] that were pushing for
Puerto Rico to become an independent island from the United States.
JJ:
What do you mean, the United States doesn’t want us?
LB:
The Congress of the United States has repeatedly stated throughout the years
the Puerto Rico, for them, is a major dilemma, and it’s a problem, not just along
racial lines, as many of us know, but, because of the density of the population,
we would probably have more representation in Congress than many states in
the Union. However, the representatives in those states would have to vote in a
referendum to make us a state, and becoming a state of this Union is extremely
difficult to do. So, the politics of it is that -- why would you want to vote in another
territory that will bring in more representation in the Congress of the United
States than many -- and I really mean many -- states will have? Okay? And, on
top of that, people of color and [00:09:00] that have been saying for many years
that they want to remain bilingual, and they want to -- and they insist on Spanish
being the national language of Puerto Rico as opposed to English. So, yeah,
being from Borinquen, having had those experiences, participating in land
takeovers, and then going to the University of Puerto Rico and the --
JJ:
So, you participated in -- you went to the university, but you participated in the
land takeovers?
LB:
Yes.
JJ:
But were there people arrested in that or anything like that, or --?
LB:
Yeah, there were people arrested, but it was a different time. It was not like here.
I mean, these were Puerto Rican policemen, many of whom themselves needed
6
�houses, and they participated in land takeovers in other places on the island.
Okay? So, it was a time in the island where people were just taking over land -JJ:
What year was this?
LB:
This is from ’66 to ’68. Okay. People were doing this. I mean, 1968 is a big
[00:10:00] year of people rising all over the world. Okay? There’s books written
about this stuff. As the (inaudible) of a particular year where people had enough,
like people are having enough today, and people go into the streets to exercise,
basically, democracy. And, in Puerto Rico, that was reflected in the [strong?]
movement to take over lands. And so, you were affected. I mean, you’re in the
same barrio, and, all of a sudden, somebody comes to the little store of my father
and says, “(Spanish) [00:10:33].” And then, “We’re getting people together to --”
And then, you go with him. You participate, and, all of a sudden, you find
yourself as a speaker, you know, in events like that, and I remember, in one of
these events, I was asked by the people in the area -- said, “Well, you speak
well. Could you speak for us?” And the city council -- this was my first time
before the city council in Puerto Rico, in Caguas, okay? [00:11:00] And I go
there, and these people are distinguished folks and councilmen, you know,
(Spanish) [00:11:06], right? And so, for me, it was a little bit weird to have to do
that, but, you know, we were young folks. We saw what was going on in the
neighborhood. We didn’t think it was fair, and we became involved. Then, we
got affected by the war.
JJ:
What wasn’t fair? I don’t understand. You’re taking over somebody’s land.
7
�LB:
Well, what was fair is that people were living in little huts all over the place that
didn’t have their own homes, and their houses were attached to the land of
others. So, like, my grandfather, who had a piece of land, I used to remember
the (inaudibleChito?) who used to take care of a lot of the maintenance of the
land. He had a little house right next to the (Spanish) [00:11:58], right?
[00:12:00] Smelling all that cow stuff and all that stuff with a big family, and some
of these family members used to be my friends. I used to go, “Why do they have
to live like that?” So, these are people that became part of a movement of
takeovers. And then, on top of that, you had the war, and then you had the
ideological battles, and the Puerto Rican Independence Party, the Puerto Rican
Socialist Party at that time, in Puerto Rico were very adamant about the whole
thing that a very energetic youth had to be included and had to be a part of a
change in the island and resisting the war, the war in Vietnam, because the war
in Vietnam was becoming a household word for people in (inaudible). So many
Puerto Ricans were being recruited by Servicio Militar Obligatorio to go to the
war to fight in foreign lands in wars that we had nothing to do with. Okay?
[00:13:00] Wars that we had not begun, that were began by other corporate
interests. So, we were sort of part of a resistance movement in the war. We
were part of land takeovers. We used to march a lot. I mean, the schools where
I went to. I mean, people demonstrating --
JJ:
In (Spanish) [00:13:21]?
LB:
No. In Barrio Borinquen, no, but I went to the school in the city. Okay? So,
there was a little bus that used to take us to the city, and, (Spanish) [00:13:34]
8
�was a high school, and (Spanish) [00:13:38] was a middle school. Kids were
very involved. We had demonstrations, and we used to march, and all this kind
of stuff, and sometimes we’d wonder why we were marching so much, but we did
it anyway. And then, we heard about these demonstrations at the University of
Puerto Rico, and these students were (Spanish) [00:14:00] because they didn’t
want to go to the war. And then, the movements like the Sixto Alvelo movement.
Sixto Alvelo was a Puerto Rican student that went with a group of students to
Vietnam to see what was going on over there, and he was in a school with a
group of other students from other Latin countries. And, when the US bombed
Vietnam -- and he was in one of those places where the bombs fell, and he was
killed, and Sixto Alvelo had nothing to do with it. So, there’s a big movement. I
became, later, the vice president of the youth movement in the -- what was called
Sixto Alvelo Movement in Defense of the Juventud Puertorriquena. And so, we
were all affected by all this stuff that was going on, and I was right in the middle
of all of that because I was an emerging young kid among the kids in the
neighborhood who took positions, [00:15:00] and PIP, for example, the Puerto
Rican Independence Party, had an office in town, and they made the office
accessible to me and a bunch of other young kids. And I was sort of like the
young leader of that group that would represent the group in different events. I
remember there was other folks that were doing likewise, young people that went
out teaching in the schools, and the Puerto Rican Independence Party had a
huge convention in 1968, and two of us were selected to argue against
established leaders in the party that had been to prison with Pedro Albizu
9
�Campos for other kinds of things in the ’50s. And here we are, these young kids,
debating them on the sort of procedure of things in the party and in conventions
because we wanted more voice. The youth movements wanted more [00:16:00]
voice in the party. So, within the party, there was all that debate. How do you
make the party more democratic and sort of move towards [the real time?]?
When they were sort of behind the times, as we thought, because they were still
following the (Spanish) [00:16:17], the whole Albizu Campos movements, and all
of that stuff, and (Spanish) [00:16:27] [Rivera?], and others, who we saw as good
leaders who had done good things, but they belonged to another generation. We
were the new generation coming in. So, yeah, we were involved in all of that
stuff. I remember speaking in Bayamón before a mass of people and going like,
“Wow, I’m speaking to this mass of people about members of the party who are
old members of the party, and now the young people are taking over.” And
Rubén Berríos was president of the party, and, for us, that was like, “Wow, he’s
such a good speaker.” [00:17:00] He was such a good presenter, an economist,
a doctor, you know. [In economics, he?] went to Oxford and Princeton, and we
were impressed because we had sort of like a youthful leader that was taking the
party in another direction, and it was a direction that was a little bit more
aggressive, and it was going more to the streets, and there were demonstrations,
as opposed to the old [guard?] that was negotiating -JJ:
So, [it was?] (inaudible) as the old guard, or --?
LB:
No, he was a new guard.
JJ:
He was the new guard.
10
�LB:
He was the new leader. He was young. He was energetic. He spoke so well,
and, for us, every time he made a speech, it was like, “Wow.” So, I was affected
by all this that I saw around me and people like him, who were remarkable role
models for us as people that, when they grab a microphone at a podium, they
mobilize masses, and I’m talking [00:18:00] about masses. You know, you’re
talking 40, 50 thousand people, demonstrations like that. So, when I finished
high school, I went to the University of Puerto Rico on a scholarship because we
were too poor. I didn’t have money to really go there. And so, I would work at
my father’s store and then go to the University of Puerto Rico, and I had to take a
little (Spanish) [00:18:25], as we call them, (Spanish) [00:18:27], public
transportation, every day. Had to get up at five in the morning to (inaudible)
Barrio Borinquen --
JJ:
(Spanish) [00:18:36] is what? Like a van, or --?
LB:
Yeah, it’s like a van, and it’s a public transportation van, and --
JJ:
Versus a bus.
LB:
Versus a bus. And these things were out in the street since early, so, at five
o’clock in the morning out of Barrio Borinquen, I took one of those. I took it to
Caguas. And then, from Caguas, take another (Spanish) [00:18:56] to Río
Piedras, and then, Río Piedras -- [00:19:00] they left you at the plazas, and you
had to walk to the University of Puerto Rico. And when I went to the University of
Puerto Rico is the first time I’ve seen a university. I didn’t know what that was. I
heard a lot about it, and I heard about the demonstrations and all of that, but I
didn’t really know what that is. And you had to do it between five in the morning
11
�and four o’clock because that’s when the (Spanish) [00:19:19] stop rolling.
Okay? So, your classes had to be during the day. And then, at night, I’d work at
the store, but I had to travel. I didn’t have money to stay, like many children of
privilege did when they went to the University of Puerto Rico. They had their
dorms and all of that. No, I lived in Caguas. I could take transportation and then
go there. And, when I got to the University of Puerto Rico, I started to see some
incredible things around me. I was already politicized enough that I had a sense
that I had to join these movements.
JJ:
So, you were going there to study what? What was your major?
LB:
When I went to the University of Puerto Rico first, I was the general [00:20:00]
studies, but I [had a concern of?] becoming a math teacher. I wanted to be a
math teacher, so most of my work was in mathematics, and, actually, after two
and a half years --
JJ:
My worst subject.
LB:
Yeah. When I was at the University of Puerto Rico, they assigned me as a
substitute teacher in the country, in (Spanish) [00:20:21], and the first one was in
[Cidra?], Puerto Rico, and in (Spanish) [00:20:26], and I was teaching
mathematics. I was teaching the new algebra, okay? In high school. But I was
a substitute teacher. I wasn’t a certified teacher yet. It’s just that the system
needed a lot of substitute teachers ’cause they didn’t have enough teachers.
But, when I went to the University of Puerto Rico, I met a lot of young folks that
were extremely brilliant people. The University of Puerto Rico at that time was
sort of like a center of very bright young folks because you had to have above a
12
�3.5 GPA average to get [00:21:00] into the university, and you had to test among
the top 10 percent on the SAT, you know, and I happened to do that, so I got a
scholarship, and I went in. And, at the University of Puerto Rico, you were
surrounded by the activism of thousands of people, and the student movement
that was becoming increasingly large, and people like Florencio Merced from the
Puerto Rican Socialist Party or people from the -- what it’s called the JIU, la
Juventud Independentista Universitaria. These were amazing speakers. These
were students of law. These were students of journalism, more advanced than
us. They were older than us young guys, but they were models, you know, and
you saw them standing on top of cars and doing these incredible speeches, and
you would learn from them. As a matter of fact, I heard a chancellor, Puerto
Rican chancellor, speak one day here in Milwaukee, [00:22:00] and, when he
finished, I went up to him and says, “You sound very much like me. Where did
you learn this from?” He says, “Well, I went to the University of Puerto Rico in
1966.” [I says?], “Me too.” But it was so large that you never got to meet people.
We had the same models.
JJ:
You had the same what?
LB:
The same models. We learned from the same people.
JJ:
The same people, yeah.
LB:
We learned from the same people, but we never met.
JJ:
So, what were some other names of some of the people --
LB:
Florencio Merced, [Miguel Ángel?] -- [I forget?] his last name. But they were
people who -- student leaders at that time. And then the party leaders,
13
�(inaudible), people like Rubén Berríos and others, and they were there all the
time, participating with us on issues because it was the Vietnam War, the
ideological battles, trying to make Puerto Rico an independent country. And
then, the larger issue of -- in the context of the university -- of the university’s
independence [00:23:00] from the political [groups?] and the political process.
And, at that time, we used to argue that the university should be a place of study
and for people learning and not to be controlled by government. You know, at
that time, it was a -- (Spanish) [00:23:18] didn’t matter. It didn’t matter who was
in power. The issue is the university should have that independence.
Unfortunately, like right now, the university doesn’t have that independence
because it’s controlled by the party in power. And then, this whole movement
towards accountability has become an excuse for parties to take over universities
and crush the whole issue of academic freedom.
JJ:
Can you describe what a movement towards accountability -- what is that?
LB:
Well, this accountability really begins at a -- stronger during the Reagan years.
Okay? And it’s about the notion that America’s [00:24:00] failing because of
people like us, people in the street and people in schools, et cetera. So, you
vilify the small folks, and you glorify the people at the top, the one percent that
makes the money and the corporate folks. Business is always right. Nonprofit
organizations are always wrong. That kind of thing. People in the community
are always wrong. They just want to take and take from government, and they
want government to work for them, and these corporate people, they made it on
their own. It doesn’t matter that it was us that built the roads that create their
14
�revenues and their richness or that [it was?] working people that created the
infrastructure that allows them to make all that money and become international.
They seem to forget that. Okay? But we, in the ’60s in Puerto Rico, were being
slightly affected then by this accountability thing, and we stop it, [00:25:00] and
we develop movements to promote the idea that the people need to have a seat
at the table. And they use what government had at that time, and they still use it
today -- the police [have separate purpose?] too. And so, the police at the
University of Puerto Rico were highly involved in crushing youth movements, and
I remember being arrested at the University of Puerto Rico once at the School of
Social Sciences with some other folks because there was a huge demonstration
at the university, and the police came, and, boy, they grab us. They throw us to
the floor. They kick us. They took us into a police station, and, with phone
books, they beat the heck out of us and that kind of stuff, and we had to be -- the
person that bailed us out was the dean of the law school at the University of
Puerto Rico, who was more into equity and into [00:26:00] a university that was
protecting the students at that time. So, we went through all of those
experiences, so, after the beating, that’s when my parents said, “You got to get
out of here,” you know, and, finally, I ended up here in Chicago.
JJ:
This is after you got arrested --
LB:
Yeah.
JJ:
Your parents said, “Let me get you out --”
LB:
Yeah.
JJ:
“Out of here. We don’t want you arrested again.”
15
�LB:
Exactly. And, “You’re putting yourself in danger, and this is not for you.” My
father was very embarrassed. For example, my father was extremely
embarrassed that policemen beat me up and slapped me around.
JJ:
So, he wasn’t angry with the police? He was embarrassed?
LB:
No, he was embarrassed, and he was angry at me that I was espousing
ideological positions and things like that to have these policemen beating me up
and all that stuff, and that was embarrassing. He felt that I shouldn’t do that, that
I was not deserving of that kind of treatment if I was on the right track. Okay?
So, his position was always a little bit different from [00:27:00] mine in that
regard. Later, when my brother disappeared, he never let go of the feeling that
he was responsible for not protecting his kids from the police and from repression
in Puerto Rico, but that was later. See? So, as he got older, he started to rethink
his positions. So, yeah. You know, my mother raised money, and they sent me
to Chicago, and I came here.
JJ:
Did you know people in Chicago, or...?
LB:
I knew some people in Chicago where I used to live at -- they were from the
barrio. Okay? And I had just got married at that time. I was living with
somebody, and she had come here --
JJ:
What year was this?
LB:
This was in late ’69, and I arrived here in 1970. I arrived in Chicago in February
of 1970. [Used to remember the?] (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) --
JJ:
’70 or ’69?
16
�LB:
’70, yeah. [It was?] ’70, and it was cold like hell [00:28:00] outside. And, as I
arrived in Chicago, the family I was staying at, which was on North Avenue and
[Oakley?], that area, themselves, were Independentistas, and they were aware of
everything that was going on, and they told me about, you know, these young
kids took over People’s Church on Armitage. I didn’t know what the heck
Armitage was or what was going on here, but it [smelled?] consistent with what I
was doing in Puerto Rico, right? And so, I was -- when I left Puerto Rico, I left,
really -- my whole heart was destroyed because I wanted to be a part of that
movement, and I remember that all these people from the Puerto Rican
Independence Party went to say goodbye to me at the airport. And so, coming to
Chicago and finding out that people were doing things here against a system that
was not working for people in general -- then, [00:29:00] the people in the house
said, “There are some people that are meeting about this issue at People’s
Church, and these kids are inside with weapons and protecting the church, you
know? You should go in and talk to them too. Be a part of this.” And I said,
“Yeah.” Made a lot of sense to me. So, that’s when I went to People’s Church,
and you guys were inside already, and when I met Cha-Cha Jiménez for the first
time there, and I met Omar López, and I always tell this story, that I felt a little bit
odd because Omar was the first person I met from the Young Lords, and he was
Mexican, you know? Not Puerto Rican. I thought this was a Puerto Rican
movement. So, my idea of a Mexican was different, not involved in something
like this, and we’d sort of joke about it and all that stuff, and I became involved,
and I was introduced to Cha-Cha Jiménez, and I was sort of recruited right there.
17
�“Can you help us out? [00:30:00] You were involved at the University of Puerto
Rico. Can you get involved here and help us organize an educational
movement?” Because the Young Lords were talking about education. They had
been doing educational stuff. They had been educating themselves and the
community around them. So, the more of us that had some educational
experience, the better, and, because I was from a barrio, not a child of privilege,
it sort of made me be closer to people from the street. Okay? That had been in
the street, doing things and struggling in the street as opposed to privileged kids
that have this ideological [bent?] for a little bit, and then they go off to become
lawyers somewhere else. Okay?
JJ:
So, you were asked to kind of set up some kind of classes or --
LB:
Yes, I was --
JJ:
-- some training.
LB:
I was asked, particularly by Omar López, who [00:31:00] I became very close to - and Omar, at that time, was living, I think, at Association House in the upstairs,
and I was close enough, so I could just walk over there, and we would talk about
how to further the education of the Young Lords. And Omar had been involved in
the student movement here, so, for me, that was very impressive, that both him
and his wife at that time, Ada, had been sort of like students in this movement
too. So, we were able to talk in the language we knew, the language of students.
The other members of the organization were more from the streets of Chicago.
They had taken a number of political actions to stop repression, and that
repression was in the form of government coming in, and taking over land, and
18
�not providing certain services, like free health clinics and things like that that
needed to [00:32:00] happen. But everything moved around the fact that the
Puerto Rican community in the Armitage area and Halsted area was being
moved, was being pushed. I remember we used to talk about urban removal.
Okay? So, how do you fight a system like that? You need to fight a system like
that with good education and people who can speak and can present before
audiences, so to be a little bit more participatory and more convincing. Okay?
And then, Cha-Cha was a good speaker. And so, for me, when I got to the
Young Lords, I was inspired also by the fact that there were people like Cha-Cha,
and Omar, and [Alberto?], and others that were connecting to a larger
understanding of a movement, and that movement [00:33:00] was affected by
what the Black Panthers were doing, what the Brown Berets were doing, what
people were doing in New York in the takeovers, what people were doing in
California [and the?] Southwest, and you sort of heard about all of this because
you were networking. And then, in the networking, you understood much better
that this was not just us in Chicago -- there were more people doing this -- and
that what was happening in Chicago is that people were a little more aggressive
about doing certain things, more daring. You know, daring to be arrested, daring
to go to the street, daring to have demonstrations. I participated in those
demonstrations. I marched in those groups. I found myself with the Young Lords
and before the UN in New York, marching and demonstrating. [I said?], wow. I
would have never done that in Puerto Rico. And marches down Division Street
and -- so, you’re surrounded [00:34:00] by the grandeur of movements of people
19
�resisting and fighting back and people talking about what they had just done, and
the death of Fred Hampton, and the marches, and the riots in Chicago, and all of
that. All of that talk, that discourse, was sort of affecting me personally because,
now, if I had certain skills and education, I had to put those skills to work, and I
had to work with others to identify the literature that was being read by folks in
the movement to better understand what was going on everywhere. Okay? And
that’s where I started to read more economics and read people like Marx, and I
had touches on Marx at the University of Puerto Rico, but now, it was a little bit
more formal, or reading (inaudible), or reading the others -- you know, Ho Chi
Minh -- not because of who they [00:35:00] were as much as because they gave
me additional tools and tools to understand the contradictions, these things that
were going on. And so, I set up with Cha-Cha, and Omar, and others. I set up
courses. It was like what I knew then. It was like formal courses at the
University of Puerto Rico to teach young people about some of these folks, to get
people to read more and to read more, and I was like a pain in the neck because
I was telling people, “You got to read. You got to read,” because I was a reader,
and I read everything that came my way. So, I wanted people to do that. I
remember that, with the young women in the movement, I had these discussions
one time because we were not doing -- yeah, sort of, we were not intellectuals
trying to produce papers and all that kind of stuff, but they were sort of angry at
me because I was pushing too much because, you know, I wanted them to read,
and I wanted them to understand [00:36:00] things. And I kept on saying, “But
you got to. You got to because we have to depend so much on people’s intellect
20
�in a movement like this and our ability to convince other people in the
community.” And then, we had an idea of a newspaper and how to use the
newspaper as an organizing tool, you know, that we would build into that
newspaper news about the community, news about what was going on in all the
country, and get it to people in our community in a bilingual fashion. Then, the
idea that it had to reflect more what Mexicans and Puerto Ricans were going
through, so we had in the paper, you know, little things with Zapata on one side
and [Albizu another?]. The whole format had to be like that, but it took a lot of
thinking. It took sort of a good understanding of what was going on in the
movements, but we were not technicians that we knew how to do a newspaper,
so we just imitated what other [00:37:00] people were doing, and doing layouts,
and writing things in Spanish -JJ:
What do you remember of some of the layouts?
LB:
Oh, yeah. Yeah.
JJ:
What do you remember [of it?]?
LB:
I had to do layouts. Yeah, and I had to figure things out, and these machines
that we haven’t used before to type with two fingers, and do the little strips, and
then the papers, and the columns because we had to be economical in how we
put the columns in and all that kind of stuff. It costs money to do all of that stuff.
And so, then we had to organize around that and get people to sell the
newspaper and raise some money so that we could produce the next copy and
the next copy.
JJ:
So, it was self-produced, or...?
21
�LB:
It was self-produced. We did the whole thing. We work at it, and then Omar
López was the minister of information, and he was responsible for the paper. I
was the minister of education, and I was responsible for a lot of the content. And
then, [00:38:00] Cha-Cha, you were mostly sort of like an inspirational piece, and
you help us think about some things, and I remember we had many discussions
about what kinds of things should we cover, and what kinds of things should we
say? The next movement, how do we use the newspaper as an organizing tool?
So, we were very much personally affected by what was going on, going to
meetings. I remember that, once, they wanted you to speak. They wanted ChaCha to speak in some event, a student event in Carbondale. I didn’t know where
Carbondale was. Cha-Cha said, “Well, you go,” and I didn’t know enough
English. I said, “Oh, my God. How am I gonna do this,” right? Speak before a
student body that I didn’t know how large. And the people that were involved
was [Bernardine Dohrn?], who was gonna be speaking there, and then, she was
a fugitive at that time. [00:39:00] I didn’t know. And (inaudible), who was her
friend. And then, a group of people took me in a car with these fugitives, quoteunquote, to Carbondale, Illinois, and then they took us to the back door so that
we could speak to the student movement. And, when I got up there, and I look at
[it, I?] couldn’t see the end. There were masses of students. And I says, “Oh,
my God. What do you say here?” And you spoken English, and you try your
best to be as clear as possible, and you made the point in favor of a Young Lords
movement that was emerging as a strong political force and that from becoming
a street initiative, now, you had all this other activity and all this involvement that
22
�we could be a part of and present in a major student demonstration in
Carbondale, Illinois. That, for me, was like, wow. That was very big. And then,
getting into a car and sneaking you out, you know, [00:40:00] to Chicago. So,
that was my sort of involvement in Chicago at that time. And then, I decided to
go to Milwaukee.
JJ:
Before [you get to Milwaukee?]. Okay, so, now, you’re in Lincoln Park, and
[there’s a Young Lords there in the church?]. You’re the minster of education.
What was your impression of some of the Young Lords that hadn’t gone to
school at all, that were just from the streets, from -- you know, ’cause we came
right from the gang into the group without --
LB:
That’s a very interesting point. My initial impression was that you had young
people that were eager to do things, and they were daring because they had
been in the streets. They would do things that I had not thought about doing
before. You learn from that, and then you let them take the initiative, and you
participate in it, but they were [00:41:00] daring acts. Okay? But they were not
very well educated. They were people who were volatile, and they were
individuals who were --
JJ:
Volatile?
LB:
Volatile, and they were sort of -- [not?] very disciplined. Okay? You will call
meetings, and people will [show or not show?] depending on that kind of stuff, or
you would try to give some more structure to the organization, and you had to
spend a bunch of time tracking people down and stuff like that. And it was
different from being an organizer at the University of Puerto Rico, where the
23
�discipline was very high, and the kids that were at the University of Puerto Rico
were very smart, and even those that came from poor neighborhoods were
people who were very well prepared. And so, when you had a demonstration,
you could count on 50 thousand people to go into the streets, and it was highly
organized. Everybody was very responsible about different kinds of things.
[00:42:00] When you come to Chicago, it’s not the same thing, but you have the
passion. You have the people that are daring, and you want to be a part of that,
so you have to get closer to the folks that are there, which I did. I got close, and I
was part of the discussions and things like that, but I was always viewed as being
more educated than other folks, and I was not different from them because I was
also from the street but from a different place.
JJ:
And you were a member, right?
LB:
Yeah, I was a member, but I was, you know, from (inaudible) Puerto Rico, not the
streets of Chicago, so I had to make my points, and Omar made his points, and
you, and others, and what we learned in that process is that education was
critical to everything we did, and we had to educate people to be a part of that
movement. So, I had to find a way of taking people that were very undisciplined
[00:43:00] and getting them to sit put for a little bit to do some reading. And then,
we had to prepare modules that were not too long, you know, that were short
enough so that people could read [it then?] and get into it. You could not expect
people to read books, whole books. Some of us had to read the whole books,
and we had to summarize it for others. So, we had classes to do that. And what
my impression of that group is that, while it would take a long time because we
24
�had this vision -- we’re gonna be here doing this for the next 30 years, that kind
of thing. Well, we had this vision of a movement that would continue to grow,
very much like the movement in Puerto Rico had grown from something very
undisciplined in the ’40s and ’50s to something very disciplined in the ’60s, that
we could get there. And so, we had to develop tools to do that, and that’s -- the
newspaper did that. The courses did that, and a bunch of thinking, [00:44:00]
planning meetings. Boy, we came up with these planning meetings all the time,
and we would sit around, and talk, and argue, and think about what’s next
because that was part of our growth. Okay? And we would discuss what the
Black Panthers were doing and the other party was doing, but we all learned
through that process.
JJ:
And [were you?] using some of the Panther newspapers and films, or --?
LB:
Yeah. We were using some of that. We would look to, you know, the (inaudible)
[of this world?]. We would look to the Angela Davises of this world and others as
sort of like models that would teach us some things, and then we would read
about them [raising up angry?], and they’d publish a newspaper, and we would
read their paper. And we had a number of students that used to come around
from the University of Chicago and other places to volunteer and help out, and
we learned from those folks [00:45:00] too. Like, I remember I wrote a paper on
the history of the Puerto Rican independence movement, and I wrote it in
Spanish, and then it had to be translated into English, so the students from the
University of Chicago help us translate that article. Okay? And it got into
different kinds of things, like another version of the article got into the Journal of
25
�Puerto Rican Thought, and that’s when I met people that were editing sort of a
scholarly journal of Puerto Rican intellectuals all over the country, and I found
myself -- an article that I wrote -- in there, and you were like, “Wow.” But it came
from a street movement, and people were recognizing that we can contribute to
the sort of philosophizing and intellectual knowledge of our communities as they
were growing.
JJ:
Okay. Okay, you said Milwaukee, and you moved to Milwaukee. [00:46:00]
What was the reason for that?
LB:
I moved to Milwaukee because I felt the movement was changing here. Okay?
Cha-Cha [had left. We were underground?]. There were more internal battles
within the organization, and I thought at that moment that I had been to
Milwaukee already. They had brought me to Milwaukee to speak to a group, and
there was a very -- you know, a good movement in Milwaukee. It was very
Puerto Rican, Mexican, everybody mobilizing in that community, and --
JJ:
Did you know people there at all?
LB:
I knew a family. My family was there. I had an aunt who was married there. [I
had that?] uncle, and I had cousins. And then, I was taken there by a group of
folks because students and people from the community took over the University
of Wisconsin, and they took me [00:47:00] over to a -- sort of like it was a
consultation, you know? And a number of us went, and we discussed the
takeover. Then, I came back to Chicago, and they took over [in?] Wisconsin.
And then, right after that, I was asked to go to Milwaukee to speak, and I decided
that Milwaukee would be a place for me to move to, mostly because Milwaukee
26
�had been a socialist community for many years. They had had socialist mayors
until the 1960s, so Milwaukee was just coming out of a socialist stage. It’s a
social democratic stage. There was a lot of community-based organizations and
movements. It was really different from Chicago. You had (inaudible) asking
people that -- shoot to kill and very extremely repressive, very nasty. People
scatter all over the place, underground, running away from what was really a very
[00:48:00] oppressive movement. The Milwaukee activity was a lot -- flourishing.
Okay? Developing. People coming from the southwest of Milwaukee a lot, from
Puerto Rico, and there were all kinds of organizations -- civil rights organizations
-- following mostly Father Groppi at that time, who was an icon of the
desegregation movement in Milwaukee. And I remember finding myself in some
of these [things?]. I remember sitting in a meeting, and, on one side, I have Jane
Fonda, and the other one, you know, I had some of the people from Father
Groppi and that kind of stuff. So, I felt that I was being a part of something very
significant there, and why I moved there -- I didn’t want to leave the Young Lords’
idea behind. I thought that it was a good thing. How do we bring it to other
cities? Okay? [00:49:00] How do we expand the Young Lords from being a
Chicago-based group that’s gone through up and downs but that needs to
continue also in places where some of us that were in the Young Lords went to?
So, I started [in our?] chapter in Milwaukee, and the newspaper that was being
published here, then, I took it to Milwaukee with me because I got connected to a
local newspaper in Milwaukee called La Guardia, and La Guardia was a Chicano
newspaper. They needed a Spanish editor, and I could be the Spanish editor, so
27
�I became Spanish associate editor of La Guardia, and Lalo Valdez the English
editor of La Guardia. And then, other people that were in the movement -Milwaukee, at that time, connected to Crystal City, Texas, where a lot of things
were happening.
JJ:
What part of Milwaukee were you based?
LB:
I was in the South Side of Milwaukee and based -- the work I did was in that
newspaper, and that [00:50:00] offered me the opportunity to bring the Young
Lords into that setting. And then, the community-based organizations that were
very close to what we were doing -- I ended up directing a community-based
organization and doing the same thing that I was doing with the Young Lords.
JJ:
[At that time?]?
LB:
Yeah.
JJ:
During --
LB:
During 1971. Doing the same thing that I was doing with the Young Lords in
Chicago, sort of transferring that to Milwaukee, creating study groups. People
will sit around, all these young people, you know, and they used to have, like, 20
people, and I was in the middle of these 20 people, discussing what is to be done
[by learning?] and what is -- having people read different kinds of things. And
then, I (inaudible), you know, [when I did?] the political stuff because I had an
interest in literature, and I had done a lot of literature when I was in Borinquen.
We had a literary circle, and we read Latin American literature [00:51:00] and all
of that, and, in Milwaukee, I had the opportunity because, mostly, they were
students. They were students in high school and students in college, unlike gang
28
�members in Chicago for a while that politicized themselves. Okay? So, I was
able to say, “We got to read Gabriel García Márquez, and we got to read
something from Guatemala, and we’re gonna have (inaudible) or the antiimperialist novels (inaudible),” and all of that stuff. I was able to do that and
assign people to read these books that we had not read in Chicago but that
people were now getting involved in writing about it and things like that. And the
movement in Milwaukee as we saw it was we come in also more politicized,
okay? In a different way from Chicago. It was just -- more community
organizations [00:52:00] were sprouting everywhere, and they were growing, and
I was running -- at the age of 24, I was running a community-based organization,
and, for me, that was like, wow, you know?
JJ:
What was the name of that?
LB:
Yeah, Centro Nuestro.
JJ:
Centro -- okay.
LB:
Centro Nuestro, which I remember because I use as a base when Cha-Cha
came to town and other Young Lords came to town, and people that were
involved with the Young Lords nationally, we could come to town and now had a
place to meet. I had a facility, so I could engage people in different kinds of
meetings [allowing?] more of the larger thinking, the intellectual stuff, [where?] I
keep on doing the basics (inaudible) community. I mean, welfare reform, health,
those kinds of things that were affecting people the most, connecting people to
jobs and things like that. And that helped me grow a lot. Because of that
network, I met people that [00:53:00] were involved with the university because
29
�of the takeover at the university, and I became co-chair of something called the
Council for the Education of Latin Americans with Roberto Hernández. There’s a
center now in Milwaukee named after him because he died of a heart attack
some years ago. And I was creating structures within the university to help
increase Latino students to go to college, and we created a center there. And
then, I started working with parents in the community because they were
mobilizing, and there were these mass meetings about bilingual education in the
schools. We need to get more bilingual services in the schools. Our kids are
going to these schools that don’t understand them. And, all of a sudden, I found
myself in front of these massive movements, and I remember going -- there are
articles in La Guardia in Milwaukee and in the newspapers in the Historical
Society, where I appear, [00:54:00] speaking before the school board and
surrounded by this mass of parents and saying, “We’re not gonna go anywhere.
We’re gonna take over the school district unless you do this, and this, and this,
and that,” and reach an agreement with them on that. And that sort of prompted
me to a position of friendship with people that were concerned about the
university structures, and I was recruited to be part of a group that put together
some alternative schools in Milwaukee, alternative schools for Latinos, and for
whites, and for Blacks, and it was a form of integration, even though we had our
own schools. And the university hired me to do some of that under a project that
they had and sent me to school. So, my studies were being paid while I
continued to do community work because it was a more progressive university
system. There was a [00:55:00] progressive dean there, and there were people
30
�that -- sort of helping you, like Ricardo Fernández, who is now the president of
Lehman College.
JJ:
Which college?
LB:
Lehman College in the Bronx in New York. So, he was --
JJ:
Okay. He was working with you there?
LB:
Yup. At that time, he was in the school of education, director of the Spanish
Speaking Outreach Institute, and sort of extremely helpful and sort of like a
mentor, you know, saying, “You got to go to school. You got to take those credits
from the University of Puerto Rico and bring them here, the credits you did, and
I’ll get you connected to some of the people in the school to see if you can get a
degree.” And then, I completed a bachelor’s degree, and, when I completed a
bachelor’s degree within the university and they sort of saw you in the
community, and moving in the masses, and stuff like that, they said, “Can you
teach courses regarding that movement and what you’re doing?” I said, “Yeah,
sure.” So, I started teaching courses at the University of [00:56:00] Wisconsin. I
[had to be?] teaching courses at the University of Wisconsin. And then, Dr.
Fernández and Dr. Adrian Chan, who were at the university at that time, said,
“Somebody like you shouldn’t do a master’s degree. You should go right to the
PhD.” And I said, “How am I gonna do that?” They said, “Well, challenge the
university.” And I became the first student to challenge the University of
Wisconsin on the issue that I didn’t have to do a master’s degree to go into a
doctoral program. And so, there were all kinds of meetings, and arguments, and
discussions about -- but these people stood behind me, and I was sort of like the
31
�poster boy, you know? [You sort of like to?] push, and I kept on saying, “I can do
it. I can do it.” And they had me take these exams and all these exams, and I
passed them all, and they were interesting because the questions they gave me
were about union movements and -- so, I knew that stuff. I was able to write
extensively about it. And [00:57:00] then, I went directly into a PhD program and
finished a doctorate degree, but it was totally paid for. I mean, I wrote the
proposal that brought the money to the University of Wisconsin.
JJ:
[The what?]?
LB:
For five people to go into a doctoral program to become bilingual educators, and
I was one of them. I wrote myself into the proposal. So, everything was paid
through that proposal, and the federal government provided resources to
increase the number of Latinos that went into bilingual education, and I was one
of them. So, that’s how I managed to get a doctorate degree.
JJ:
When was this? When --?
LB:
This was in the 1970s, late 1970s, and I finished -- you know, it took me about 15
years to finish a PhD because I was active in the community. So, I started, in the
’80s, doing the courses. I did all the courses in a couple years for the PhD, but
then, to complete the [00:58:00] dissertation took me longer because I wanted to
do -- I had this community thing in me, so I wanted to do a community-based
dissertation, and my advisor kept on saying, “You’re crazy. No. Do something
fast and get it out of the way.” I said, “No, no. I want to interview people in
different parts of the country about educational movements in the communities
and what people did. So, as part of my dissertation, I went to California,
32
�interview people that were in street movements of parents changing the schools,
and I went to Texas and did the same thing, to New York, to Boston, here in
Chicago. That took me all over the country, raising money so I could -- getting
inside an old car, and driving all the way to New York, and going to the South
Bronx, for example, and meeting Evelina Antonetty, who, at that time, had taken
over the New York Board of Education, and this lady was like a [big mama?], you
know. She was like the South -- there are streets named after Evelina [00:59:00]
Antonetty in the South Bronx now since she died, but she became like a mentor,
you know? She would call me, “Oh, you little [communist?], shut up,” and she
would tell me what to do and all that kind of stuff. And then, I would go -- I
remember, met with a group of parents in Boston, and they asked me to go out of
the room for a little bit. They needed to talk among themselves, and it was to
check me out. Okay? And then, some people talk -- “Is he a parent? Does he
know something about parents? How come he talks that way? You’re a student
at the university.” And, no, they [arranged?], and they brought me back, and they
said, “Okay.” And then, I became part of parental movements, educational
movements, university movements -JJ:
Parental like PTA, or...?
LB:
No, we organized our own organizations. They were different from PTAs in the
sense that they were community grown. They were moms and pops, Latinos that
[01:00:00] were concerned about the education of their kids, and we had
committees all over the place, and we went all over the country, doing that. I
remember coming to Chicago to meet with some parent groups here and
33
�meeting people in Cleveland, Ohio that were involved in educational stuff, and
having people in Cleveland, for example. There were two women, [Nati Pagan?]
and Daisy Rivera, who were extremely involved in educational issues since their
time in Boston. They were involved in the Boston desegregation case with
Harvard University law students of Puerto Rican descent. And, you know, now,
these universities had Latinos, and you got these Latinos involved, and they
became very sophisticated, so they developed a bilingual movement in
Cleveland, and they asked me to go to meet with the parents about the strategies
that we used in the Milwaukee case. Okay? Because, in [01:01:00] Milwaukee,
we had to reach agreements with the school district on bilingual education. And
so, that helped me a lot because I knew, through this network, people that were
really, really smart and who were grassroot. They were people from the street.
They were people who had built movements, not because they were members of
PTAs or PTOs. They were people who believed in community control of the
schools, and the community control movement was something that had been big
in the ’60s. Well, in the early ’70s, it was really big in many of our communities
all over the country. So -JJ:
And what did that mean, community control? What was that?
LB:
Well, it meant that, even in communities like Milwaukee, where we were less in
numbers, we were growing faster. We knew something about data, about
evidence. We knew that our kids were gonna really be part [01:02:00] of that
power structure at some point, and we wanted to humanize them so that they
wouldn’t be part of the corporate world, you know, smashing us when they got to
34
�the top. And the movements that evolved to do that had to be people’s
movement, a democratic movement, and we had to argue that, if the schools
didn’t do certain things for us, we had to do it for ourselves. So, that’s why we
created [alternative?] schools. That’s why we created education movements in
the community. We used to write for grants and seek foundation money to
create institutes of parent growth, parent development, and things like that, and
that sort of put us in a situation of a lot of community power. So, when I went to
the school board, for example, in 1974, I appeared before the school board to
argue what we came up with in terms of a bilingual [01:03:00] movement in the
school district that we felt would empower the parents in the community, and
there would be a closer link between community and the schools where the kids
went to. And then, they told me that they didn’t think that they could do that, and
I could stand before a school and say, “Well, if you can’t agree to this, next week,
at this date, at 10 o’clock in the morning, we’re gonna ask all Latino students in
all of the schools of Milwaukee to walk out. Okay?” And they look at me like,
“Eh,” you know. That day, they had these parents organize with (Spanish)
[01:03:38] and all this stuff in the parks, and, at 10 o’clock, the doors opened,
and all the Latino kids from all the schools came marching out. We had this big
event. [The workers were a part?], and the parents were serving food to their
own kids, and the police came, but why would they attack kids? It was like they
had to be careful about that because the press was [01:04:00] there. And so, we
saw that as a great victory. We told the public schools, “You see? When we
want, we tell kids to walk out. They’re gonna walk out, so you’re gonna sit at the
35
�table with us.” And they sat at the table with us, and, three days later, we came
up with a bilingual plan in Milwaukee, and the bilingual plan became the base for
parent groups all over the country to say, “They did it in Milwaukee. We can do it
here too.”
JJ:
And what’s the basis of the bilingual plan or education?
LB:
It’s taken an interesting in number of years. We reached an agreement with
Milwaukee Public Schools in May 7, 1974. ’74. Okay? Then, we increased the
population of Latinos working in the public schools and the level of parental
involvement and parental participation. And, whenever you do that, you know,
the people you bring into these positions at the [01:05:00] university or at the
community level -- you have a number of people that become more comfortable
and don’t become part of a movement, but you have a number of people that
stay with it, and we stayed with it over the years, and we’ve reached a point, after
almost 30 years, where, now, we can go to the public schools and say,
“Milwaukee, Wisconsin was always supportive of the idea of language education
because of us, okay? Because we created a consciousness, and we had
German immersion schools, and French immersion schools, and Italian, and
bilingual programs for Hispanics, and all of that. Why don’t we go to the next
step now? Why don’t we rebrand Milwaukee as a city that embraces the idea
that everybody should be bilingual?” And you have a superintendent of schools
that says, “That makes sense. That makes sense.” You’re no longer dealing
now with the resistance that you would find before. You have a school board that
says, “That makes sense,” [01:06:00] and you appear before a committee of the
36
�board, and you tell them about this idea, and you get a unanimous vote by a
school saying, “We should do that. We should try to move all of the schools in
our system to become bilingual schools. Let’s start somewhere.” So, we’re at a
point right now where bilingualism and the idea that kids in this country, poor
kids, kids from the community, like rich kids, whose parents send them to other
countries for immersion in another language, or their schools teach them multiple
languages, now we can say poor kids, when they go to a school, their language
doesn’t need to be suppressed, their native language. They can retain their
language, grow that language, and become bilingual, and a global economy, that
needs bilingual folks. Okay? And so, we’re at that point in the Milwaukee
movement. Now, we can coordinate with the [01:07:00] city council, the
superintendent of schools, with the school board, with community groups, parent
groups, the bilingual teachers, you know, who are now looking at us as -- they’re
not that crazy. This makes sense. So, the Wisconsin Association for Bilingual
Education creates something that they call the Tony Baez Leadership and
Advocate Award for the state of Wisconsin so that only people that do what I’m
doing in education can get that award. Those are significant things. That’s not
about me. It’s about the fact that you stay with it through these years, and
people recognize that your involvement was really about humanizing how we do
things here and taking our time so that, now, we can say, because of our
population, the size of our population now we’ve grown, you know, it makes a lot
of logical sense to [01:08:00] have this kind of stuff. But there’s been a growth,
and people are also more educated about it, and now, we have more educators.
37
�I mean, the University of Wisconsin, Marquette University, Cardinal Stritch, they
all want in it. Milwaukee Area Technical College [has scholars, see?]. And these
scholars are saying, “Oh, that makes a lot of sense. Can we be part of this
[committee?]? Can we be part of this effort?” So, we develop a memorandum of
understanding so that all these institutions can sign to it and say, “We’re gonna
grow the number of Latinos teaching in these different areas so that we can
support the idea that Milwaukee should be a bilingual town.”
JJ:
Now, is that related to -- you were talking earlier about --
LB:
Absolutely.
JJ:
-- the alderman --?
LB:
Mm-hmm. Absolutely. It’s related to the idea that --
JJ:
Someone just got elected or something?
LB:
Exactly. It’s related to the idea that --
JJ:
Who got elected?
LB:
José Pérez got elected alderman in the 12th District in Milwaukee. [01:09:00] But
all I’m saying is that you sort of start somewhere. You develop an
understanding, a commitment, a passion for doing certain kinds of things. You
grow, and you affect other people around you, right? And the people that are
around you start doing things. So, José Pérez is the son of (inaudible), who used
to be the principal of one of our two language schools. And so, he’s part of a
second generation, so you saw him grow since he’s little, and his commitment to
community is more along the lines of, you know, “I care about this. I grew up
here. My mom was involved in these movements.” Okay? And his mom worked
38
�closely with who today is the president of the teachers’ union. Okay? So, you
have all these connections, and everybody knows everybody, and the person
that’s on the school board right [01:10:00] now was a member of -- his wife was
the movement that organized from 9to5.
JJ:
Who is this person?
LB:
Larry Miller. His wife was Ellen Bravo, who wrote a book about women working
from nine to five and developing a national movement, and she appears in 60
Minutes, and NBC, and all that stuff. So, you have all these people who were
part of movements in the ’60s and ’70s, were affected by it, developed the
passion for it, and are now sort of friends, and connected, and coming together,
and you can say to José, “Not only is your district going to be affected by this
bilingual plan, but there are people as high as the White House [that will be?] part
of your kitchen cabinet to help you think through this.” Okay? And people that
are connected in political circles all over the country [01:11:00] are going to be
part of that thinking.
JJ:
Okay. Any final thoughts?
LB:
I think that the lesson that I’ve learned from all of this is that, when you become
part of a movement in your youth, if you are not participating in that movement
sort of from the outside, when you’re part of it, you’re in it, you grow with it. And
the movements in this country change. They have to change because of the
circumstances, and the population, and how we become involved, and, as we
become older, we also get connected to jobs because we have to live and work,
and you have kids, and now I have grandkids and children, and all of that --
39
�JJ:
What are your children’s names?
LB:
They’re in Milwaukee, and --
JJ:
What are their names?
LB:
The older one is [Luis?], who is [01:12:00] very involved in the whole thing of
health. Okay? [Pablo?], who is highly involved in the Milwaukee community,
works for the American Society for Quality, has two beautiful girls that are
Chicano (inaudible), you know, and Luis has married to an African American
woman, so he married African American, my other son married a Chicano, and
my daughter married African American, and she has children too. And so, all of
these kids are connected to what they see their grandfather doing, and, even
though they don’t follow what you’re doing, they’re generating their own flow of
things, and I think that what happens too is that, when you are part of a
movement, you want to leave that with other people, so I mentor a lot of people.
A lot of people. And, throughout the years, you learn how to be more [01:13:00]
sensitive, more understanding, but still pushing positions of more community
empowerment, community control, developing leaders who don’t look at how
deep their pockets are, but how they’re connected to communities. So, if I get
involved in succession training, I take to my home people who I know are
promising leaders in the community, young folks, and I feed them. I cook for
them, do all of that stuff, and put the food away and say, “Now, we’re gonna talk.”
And you spend time talking with them, and they sort of think of you as this
grandpa that was involved in some of these things, and now, I was trying to
[leave with them?] before I disappear so that the next generation, you know,
40
�carries that forward. So, we have to think time-wise that this is something that’s
not gonna end now and that all of us that [01:14:00] were involved in the ’60s and
the ’70s, we lived experiences that we have to share with others, and those
experiences made us stronger, and more passionate, and more responsible, and
having the community integrity. And so, we have to pass that on to other people
because the people today did not live the civil rights movements and these
community struggles that we lived. Okay? They’re living something different.
Now, the movements are about a different kind of civil rights. They could be
about schools, but they’re also about undocumented people, and about how do
we build solidarity with the African community, and how do we continue with
those struggles? So, I learned a lot about that, and I think -- I’d write about it. I
speak to people. I became more [techy?] about it, and, in my presentations
wherever I go, I try to inspire others to do likewise so that [01:15:00] people
continue, and I think that’s the big lesson, that these are things that are gonna
change over time, and we change over time, but we have to give to others so
that others start doing the kinds of things that we believe in because making
change and transforming a society like this one takes a long time. That’s what
you learn. It takes a very long time. Okay? So -JJ:
Now, you’re talking about getting income (inaudible) for survival and all that.
LB:
Mm-hmm.
JJ:
Where do you work now?
LB:
Right now, I’m the executive director of the Council for the Spanish Speaking in
Milwaukee. The Council is an organization that is the oldest Latino-serving
41
�organization in the state of Wisconsin. Okay? And it’s best known for having
developed, since the ’60s, an agenda with poor and working-class people. And
so, that was closer to me. Not organizations that wanted to build [01:16:00] a
Latino middle class or to engage more Latinos in the corporate sector, you know,
or in corporations and professionals getting up there somewhere else on boards
and things like that. No, this organization was about poor people, and poor
people’s movements, and mobilizing to improve the lives of people. Okay? And
I was a provost at the Milwaukee Area Technical College, and -JJ:
[What is provost?]?
LB:
Yeah, provost is a vice president of academic affairs, and there are co-provosts
in many universities because, by legislation, they are independent from
presidents. Okay? That means that you control the academic agenda of a
university. Okay? And the president will try to tell you what to do sometimes, but
the only way he can get around that is by firing you. Because you have
[01:17:00] protection, you can -- the academic freedom is there. And I was
provost of the Milwaukee Area Technical College, which is the third largest
technical college in the country, so I had 160 partners under my supervision, and
that was huge. You know, a kid from the Barrio Borinquen that goes through this
process in the streets and marching, and, all of a sudden, he’s inside a
university, a two-year college at that point, and then also teaching in four-year
colleges and university systems, and you earn a certain level of respect when
you enter a position like that. At one point, I was the highest-level Latino
educator in the state of Wisconsin. And so, you get into circles with white folks
42
�that are in these other committees and things like that, and you can argue your
point, and you can humanize curriculum that affects a whole state or that affects
the education of [workers in?] [01:18:00] the whole country. Okay? You can do
that. So, the White House has a Latino education excellence agenda, and they
have staff related to that, but they know that, when they call Milwaukee, they can
call me because I was a provost. I have legitimacy now. Okay? And I am
involved in educational circles. So, they will call me. He says, “What do you
think about this? What do you think about that?” And it’s government calling
you, or somebody from the Department of Labor who called me just yesterday,
and he says, “Look. I’m with the Department of Labor of the United States, and
when --” Because I call him back in the evening, and I said, “Excuse me for
calling you back so late. I was in a meeting.” He says, “No, no.” Because, when
you call people that work for the president of this country, “[We need to?] hear
you, and we wanted to reach you, and we are gonna have some officials coming
to Milwaukee. Can you handle that?” So, now, government is sort of [01:19:00]
respectful of the position you play in a particular community, and they call you for
things. Not that they agree with you. It’s not an issue of agreement. So, if the
White House invites me into a meeting that they have for Latinos in the White
House with 150 leaders nationally, you can go into that meeting, and you can
argue with the lawyers from Homeland Security and the Department of Justice,
and I could say things like -- (inaudible) [this week?]. “No, that’s irrelevant, Dr.
Baez, because we’re not discussing this.” “No, no, no. No, no. That is relevant.”
Okay? And they go, “No, no. That’s not relevant. We’re lawyers.” I said, “I don’t
43
�care if you’re lawyers. Okay? That is relevant. I’m not gonna go back to the
Latin community and say that they have to put pressure on what they’re doing,
stop doing this, stop doing that, to save money, and you guys are not suing those
rascals that are going away with 50 million dollar bonuses. Okay? You know
why you’re not suing them?” I says, “I can tell you [01:20:00] why. ’Cause they
have better lawyers than you do. So don’t pull the wool over our eyes.” Now, we
can say -- in the White House, we can say that. Okay? Before, we were in the
street, fighting in demonstrations. We haven’t given that up. We still do that.
We still demonstrate and march. Like, the last immigrant march in Milwaukee
was 80 thousand people, and I was there, marching with everybody else. But we
also have standing because of our preparation, and the way we talk, and the way
we read. We know what’s going on. We know the economics of Wall Street.
We know the political systems and things like that. And then, you’re gonna have
a university inviting me to speak before chancellors and the Department of
Economics of a major university about how the economic, financial crisis is
affecting Latinos. And you didn’t have that before, you know. So, they are now
listening because they know that we are [01:21:00] growing as a Latino
community. In the 1970s, we had no idea how big the Latino community was
gonna be, but, as we see it growing now, and we see the immigration
movements, and we see that the majority of the growth is because of Latinos that
are citizens, that live in this country, and that, you know, the media and others
are making it sound like it’s just immigrants, and stuff like that, and
undocumented people, and it’s not. It’s because we are part of a change, and
44
�we’re changing the face of America, and, therefore, we need to have people that
can speak and raise issues on our behalf. I remember going before the city
council once, and there was somebody raising some other issues, and, “Well, he
doesn’t represent the Latin community,” and one of the aldermen said, “Oh, no,
no. He does. He does. He is one of those --” And an alderman said this [in
there?]. He says, “He is one of those people in the community who earned,
[01:22:00] throughout the years, the respect, and we have to hear what he has to
say. He may come here and say he doesn’t represent the community, but he’s
here because he’s a Latino, okay? So, you listen to him.” And that’s sort of like,
wow, somebody’s understanding on the other side that you don’t represent
everybody in the community, but you can speak with a certain level of authority
about the history of a community [in exchange?].
JJ:
So, final thoughts, but the Young Lords -- what do you think their contribution
was to this whole --?
LB:
Growth that they helped me develop a passion like I never would have had if I
hadn’t been part of that movement. I was at the University of Puerto Rico,
developed a certain type of passion there. Okay? But, when I came to the
Young Lords, I developed a sort of -- I built upon that passion. Okay? [01:23:00]
Now, from student bodies, I saw community folks trying, and working, and
developing, and you go like, “Wow. All these people that died because of this
and the people that tried their best in spite of the fact that they didn’t have all the
tools available to them --” So, as you acquire more tools and you diversify, you
go like, “Wow. I’m growing because of a perspective, you know, a way of looking
45
�at the world that I developed when I was a member of that organization,” and the
Young Lords helped me do that because I became active in that. So, for
example, while in the 1960s and the early 1970s, I didn’t play the guitar or sing.
When I started doing that -JJ:
I remember your guitar.
LB:
Yeah. When I started doing that and developing that, in my own barrio, I’m a
nobody because people there -- my brother’s a master musician, so, you know.
But, [01:24:00] in Milwaukee, there was nobody doing songs of social political
content. Okay? And I had that perspective because of the movement and the
Young Lords. So, when I started developing that, and playing, and appearing in
a concert -- all of a sudden, I’m in a concert, doing a concert before a whole
mess of people, and then being invited to do a concert in [New Orleans?], and
California, and New York, and places like that -- you are singing before large
masses of people and crowds, and I sang before masses of three, four thousand
people, like singing before the mariachi festival in Tucson, Arizona in the late
1970s. When I did that, there were thousands and thousands of people there,
listening to mariachis, but they heard the singing of this lone guitarist, you know,
conveying a message of transformation, peace, of revolution. [01:25:00] And you
now have a forum, but you developed that. I could have gone into salsa, and
(inaudible) stuff. Other people were doing that. No, I had to do something
different that pertained to what I knew, and that was because of how I was
affected by the Young Lords movement, by a community movement, and,
throughout the years, staying with it. Yeah.
46
�JJ:
Okay. Any final thoughts?
LB:
I think I said it all. [Thanks?].
JJ:
All right, Tony. Thank you.
END OF VIDEO FILE
47
�
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4306fb22aa487da3aa251cd6801a0d0f.mp4
1e0c6029a26f559db9f4bf7cd4d439b8
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection
Subject
The topic of the resource
Young Lords (Organization)
Puerto Ricans--United States
Civil Rights--United States--History
Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.)
Personal narratives
Social justice
Community activists--Illinois--Chicago
Description
An account of the resource
Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives.
The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Jiménez, José, 1948-
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-04-25
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video/mp4
application/pdf
Language
A language of the resource
eng
spa
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-65
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
2012-2017
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Título
Spanish language Title entry
Luis "Tony" Baez vídeo entrevista y biografía
Sujetos
Spanish language Subject terms
Young Lords (Organización)
Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos
Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia
Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.)
Puertorriqueños--Relatos personales
Justicia social
Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago
Puerto Rico--Autonomía e independencia movimientos
Activistas comunitarios--Wisconsin--Milwaukee
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-65_Baez_Luis
Title
A name given to the resource
Luis "Tony" Baez video interview and transcript
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Baez, Luis
Description
An account of the resource
Luis "Tony" Baez arrived in Chicago from Barrio Borinquén of Caguas, Puerto Rico in 1969 and soon became Minister of Education of the Young Lords. In Puerto Rico, Dr. Baez was also active with the Puerto Rican Independence Party (PIP), the electoral component of the broad movement in Puerto Rico, fighting for Puerto Ricans to regain back control of their nation. By 1970, Dr. Baez moved from Chicago to Milwaukee and set up a Young Lords chapter. They maintained a community office and distributed the Young Lords Newspaper (that Dr. Baez had also helped to publish while in Chicago), focusing primarily on neighborhood organizing, community-based programs, and bilingual education.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Jiménez, José, 1948-
Subject
The topic of the resource
Young Lords (Organization)
Puerto Ricans--United States
Civil Rights--United States--History
Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.)
Puerto Ricans--Personal narratives
Social justice
Community activists--Illinois--Chicago
Puerto Rico--Autonomy and independence movements
Community activists--Wisconsin--Milwaukee
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video/mp4
application/pdf
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2012-08-23
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Young Lords collection (RHC-65)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/dbdbaff56dbcf6e2a51f7825ef22a0ef.mp4
de1ff60d79e6eaa58843b9ec617a5b03
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4d2eec222928894c79ad2db809d8c745.pdf
ead437348063f348ce3cc451d77c7168
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project
Dick Bailey
(00:35:52)
Born in Grove City Pennsylvania on December 4, 1922 (00:25)
Dad worked as a coal miner (00:35)
He had six siblings, four brothers and two sisters (01:30)
Quit school Freshman year of high school to work on a dairy farm for $12 a month, he
received one half day off every month and eventually received a raise to $15 a month
(02:10)
He was in Florida near Lake Okeechobee when he heard about Pearl Harbor (02:35)
Brother enlisted in Florida (3:20)
He worked at Zipper Company in Pennsylvania and enlisted at the age of nineteen
(04:00)
He reported to Erie Pennsylvania (04:45)
He enlisted in the Army Air Corps (05:10)
He spent five weeks at Fort Meade in Maryland, and then went to Miami Beach (05:30)
Sent to Rogers field Oklahoma for several days and then to Woodward, Oklahoma for
basic training (06:30)
Sent to Topeka, Kansas as a replacement, he spent three weeks there (06:45)
Received mechanical training at Chanute Field for three weeks (07:20)
Shipped out from Topeka, Kansas to New York, and shipped out on USS Brazil (08:00)
Went down to Panama Canal to cross into the Pacific (08:35)
The ship traveled in a convoy to the Panama Canal and then separated from the convoy
with one destroyer as its escort to New Caledonia (09:55)
Once in New Caledonia, they traveled to the New Hebrides Islands were a sub pursued
them until the destroyer sunk it with depth charges (10:20)
�
Moved onto Espiritu Santo, which was a main base with an airstrip (10:40)
Served with the 344th service squadron and the 321st service group, 13th Air Force
(11:05)
His job was to maintain aircraft (11:20)
The base wasn’t free from enemy attack (12:30)
Worked on Australian and New Zeeland aircraft (12:45)
B24’s harder to work on than other plains (13:00)
They were attacked during the night by Japanese bombers (13:20)
Life on New Hebrides Islands
Spent 1 year there with very little off time (14:30)
Entertained by the USO and celebrities appearances such as Bob Hope, Jerry Colonna,
and Marilyn Monroe (15:00)
Mrs. Roosevelt came by way of a C87 (converted B24 into a passenger craft) (15:20)
Four brothers in service in Europe (16:15)
Had contact with crews of aircraft (18:00)
Squadrons sent out, some had heavy losses (18:30)
Moved to a hospital in Guadalcanal for a wisdom tooth infection (18:55)
Had to tear up the jungle to set up tents (19:45)
Moved to base on Biak Island (20:10)
Moved to Leyte in the Philippines near the end of the war (20:20)
Poured gas into a cave to burn out a hidden Japanese hospital (21:40)
Some Japanese stragglers would steal or break into mess halls to steal food, and
occasionally fire at US troops (21:05)
Living conditions; Always lived in tents about five to a tent (21:45)
He joined as a replacement but other people had been there longer (22:15)
�
The Unit formed in Will Rogers Field, Oklahoma and traveled to Kansas in a convoy
(22:40)
Weather was hot; sometimes it was wet and sometimes dry (23:15)
Wildlife on Pacific islands included bats, reptiles and land crabs (23:45)
Tropical diseases were controlled pretty well through preventive medication (24:00)
He was in Leyte when the war ended (25:50)
Left the Philippines after Thanksgiving, sailed on Liberty ship (27:40)
Traveled o California from the Philippines and then to Fort Knox, Kentucky (28:30)
Took a train into Pittsburgh, the buses were on strike so he hitchhiked home (28:55)
Got a job for Cooper Vespa and worked for forty-four years in Gross City (29:50)
He worked on engines and stock car racing (30:35)
He joined Nascar in 1950 (30:45)
Raced on the beach in a new Pontiac (31:05)
Continued racing for thirty years (32:05)
Varied racing cars till 1997 (23:15)
Joined the reserve, Air National Guard, after he was discharged (33:30)
During his time in the service he gained a lot of mechanical experience (34:15)
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Bailey, Dick (Interview outline and video), 2009
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Bailey, Dick
Description
An account of the resource
Dick Bailey was born in Pennsylvania and enlisted in the army at the age of nineteen during World War II. He spent the majority of his time deployed in the Pacific, working as an aircraft mechanic in the 13th Air Force. He went home to Pennsylvania after the war, and became involved in stock car racing, and was one of the first NASCAR drivers.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
United States. Army
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2009-09-16
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
BaileyD
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b0dafdff94c707e52eaf91620726bd4b.mp4
301dcd67a56382c2d07a8d4c65b3fb37
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6088c111578914c0a52ae156b349cd0c.pdf
98b62ba07a25319f7161ad0417a1c819
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veteran's History Project
Korean War
Glen Bailey
Total Time (01:06:39)
Introduction (00:00:21)
Glen Bailey was born in 1932 in Kent County, north of Grand Rapids, Michigan (00:00:37)
His father was an independent carpenter during the Great Depression while his mother stayed at
home (00:01:03)
◦ Glen left during his 8th grade year of school at the age of 15; he went to work in a toilet seat
factory because his father had passed and he wanted to support his family (00:02:21)
◦ At the age of 17, Glen got permission from his mother to join the Army although she
previously talked him out of it; he enlisted August 1st, 1949 (00:03:18)
◦ Glen did his basic training at Ft. Riley in Kansas; he took a train there and only left the state
of Michigan a few times before that (00:03:53)
▪ He had a hard time adjusting to life in the Army; he had never been to far away from
family although he didn't have a tough time following orders (00:05:10)
▪ After basic training Glen was sent to Ft. Carson in Colorado to continue training
(00:05:48)
▪ Glen trained as a mechanic while at Ft. Carson with armored vehicles and trucks
(00:06:27)
▪ The majority of his unit consisted of World War II veterans as sergeants and younger
people in their late teens and early twenties (00:07:51)
Glen and his unit were in transfer to the 1st Cavalry Division once the Korean War
started; they joined the 5th Regiment in Japan and then traveled via amphibious boats
to Korea (00:10:00)
Korean War (00:10:00)
When Glen and his unit landed in Korea, his 1st sergeant told him to shoot at anything that
moves; they shot at a clump of bushes and it ended up being a rooster pheasant (00:10:43)
They landed in about July of 1950 (00:11:05)
Glen and his unit were transported via ships to Korea and he avoided seasickness due to his
father's fishing habits which had him on boats quite often as a kid (00:12:26)
It took 10 days to go from the United States to Japan and they did go on shore for about two
days until they departed again (00:13:00)
◦ A lot of the equipment was from World War II and Glen notes that it was lousy and wore out
(00:13:50)
◦ Glen's records got messed up and he had to go 20 miles on his own to the Company
Headquarters; he traveled with a British outfit and his records never got sorted out
(00:15:55)
▪ At that time, there were no tanks brought in so his unit functioned as an infantry unit;
there was very little artillery as well; his unit was taking a whole lot of casualties at that
time as well (00:17:29)
▪ Glen was part of a line of defense at the Pusan perimeter; his unit eventually pushed the
enemy unit back from that line (00:20:25)
�▪
▪
He notes that fighting against real enemy combatants, and not just training, was a tough
lesson to learn for a lot of the younger soldiers (00:21:42)
Glen mentions that everywhere was chaos and the higher ups in the Army didn't really
know what was going on up front (00:22:52)
Glen's unit was on the outskirts of Seoul; he never thought it was close to being over
as there were skirmishes every night and it was never quiet (00:23:53)
In the fall of 1950 they encountered Chinese troops and came as a big surprise to
Glen; one third of the Chinese didn't have a weapon and used a stick (00:25:07)
◦ He took some shrapnel from part of a grenade and it burned part of his arm and
hand while in Korea; he went back to headquarters company for treatment and
was left there to work as a mechanic (00:28:41)
◦ During the daytime, the US forces would take a hill and fortify but by the night,
the Koreans would take it back (00:30:26)
◦ Glen mentions that he had to watch out for civilians all the time because he
never knew if they were an enemy or a refugee (00:31:46)
◦ In certain ways, being attached to HQ was scarier than being on the line for
Glen; sometimes the food would be scarce and they'd have to steal food from
civilians (00:34:59)
▪ At first they didn't have air support but once the war started going they
started to receive it, artillery and tanks as well (00:36:21)
▪ Glen and his unit were assigned to protect General MacArthur when he was
in Korea; MacArthur more or less wanted to see what was going on
(00:40:05)
In addition to being burned on his arm from white phosphorous, Glen
was injured from grenade shrapnel as well; they were so short on troops
that Glen was just patched up and had to stay on the line- this caused
some Korean Veterans to be passed up on the Purple Heart Medal
(00:41:54)
Glen was lucky enough to receive a bottle of liquor via the mail from his
uncle (00:43:55)
He didn't see any other United Nations' troops besides the British while
he was in Korea (00:45:43)
Back to the United States (00:46:26)
Glen was sent back the United States via ship; he landed in California and was sent to Ft.
Carson and finally was allowed a 30 day leave to go home (00:47:12)
He notes that it is lousy that people can go overseas and get shot at but cannot enjoy a drink at
home because of the drinking age (00:48:20)
◦ Glen had to send money home while he was overseas to support his family; he sent 40$ a
month out of his allotment which was a lot to him (00:51:11)
◦ He was sent back to Ft. Carson; he worked in an armored artillery outfit and worked as a
mechanic as well as normal duty (00:52:09)
◦ Glen was discharged in September of 1952 at Ft. Carson; he drove his 1947 Chevy Coupe
from Colorado to Grand Rapids (00:53:23)
▪ He had a number of jobs when he got to Grand Rapids; he hauled coal, worked for a
gravel company, worked in a paint factory and worked for a trucking company
(00:54:33)
�▪
Glen finally found long term work as a delivery driver and then transitioned over to a
supervisor position (00:55:31)
The Korean conflict bothered him a lot and mentions he almost got a divorce
because of it; he woke up one night and was choking his wife- back in those days,
there wasn't any support for Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) (00:56:25)
When Vietnam came around Glen felt for the guys that had to go overseas but had a
bad attitude about it; he is bitter because the Korean veterans don't get much
mention (00:59:36)
Glen did not stay in the reserve unit but kept in contact with one of his officers for a
number of years (01:02:17)
◦ He comments that the Veterans Administration is poorly run; he had to go
through so much to get little help and he says it's pathetic (01:04:58)
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
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RHC-27
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eng
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
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Bailey, Glen (Interview outline and video)
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Bailey, Glen
Description
An account of the resource
Glen Bailey was born in 1932 in Kent County, Michigan. Glen left school during his 8th grade year at the age of 15; he went to work as his father had passed away and he wanted to support his family. At the age of 17, Glen got permission from his mother to join the Army. He did his basic training at Ft. Carson in Colorado where he did additional training as a mechanic. He was transferred to the 1st Cavalry Division once the Korean War started and was then assigned to the 5th Infantry Regiment. He served on the Pusan Perimeter and in the advance into North Korea, and then in the retreat after the Chinese counterattacked. While in Korea, he suffered two separate injuries: a burn to his arm as well as taking shrapnel from a grenade, but each time returned to his unit and rotated home in 1951, and served at Fort Carson, Colorado, until his discharge in 1952.
Contributor
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Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
United States. Army
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eng
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
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Moving Image
Text
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
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BaileyG1596V
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a>
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application/pdf
video/mp4
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6d7c453b380f512d27f119071857e1f4.m4v
9203954d192cf5cbcdd2f386a3b94bb2
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7bfd1a72b72d42fea24be2a01c9d21ef.pdf
b1689ff5989670c0dbbbbe849689ff70
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans’ History Project
Joseph Bailey
World War II & Korean War
55 minutes 47 seconds
(00:00:23) Early Life
-Born in Prescott, Arizona, in 1922
-Lived out of town
-Went to 13 schools over the course of 11 years
-Wrestled, played football, boxed, and ran track
(00:01:12) Enlisting in the Navy
-The draft began in September 1940 in anticipation of America entering World War II
-He was working in a papermill in Oregon City, Oregon
-Didn’t want to get drafted into the Army, so he decided to enlist in the Navy
-Based on later information, he most likely enlisted in January or February 1941
(00:01:39) Basic Training
-Sent to Naval Training Center San Diego for his basic training
-Lasted seven weeks
-For the first three weeks the recruits were kept on the base
-Transferred to North Unit
-Trained there for the other four weeks
-Learning more about the Navy and its various protocols
-Quartered in barracks
-Had two-high bunks
-Tied sea bag to his bunk
-Kept everything he would bring to sea with him in that bag
-Mostly Navy-issued clothing
-Had good food
-Assigned to guard duty sometimes
-Issued a rifle, but no ammunition
(00:04:18) Metalsmith School
-Sent to Metalsmith School for four months
-He had experience with welding, which prompted that assignment
-Received that training in San Diego
-Started off as an apprentice seaman, then got promoted to seaman 2nd class
-Pay went from $21 a month to $36 a month
-He helped build the Metalsmith School
-Learned about the different types of welding
-Mostly gas welding and arc welding
-Had normal work days, and usually got off work around 5 p.m.
-Pulled guard duty when he wasn’t doing any welding
�-Usually had enough to work on, so there wasn’t much downtime
-If there was downtime, he would go into San Diego
-Visited Mission Beach because it was cheap entertainment
-On leave, he would hitchhike home
-If he had a seven-day leave, he got to spend two or three days with his family
-Got into a lot of fights with the Marines in San Diego
-Each group was proud of their branch of service and fiercely defended its honor
(00:09:49) Service aboard the USS Whitney (AD-4)
-His first ship assignment was to the USS Whitney (AD-4)
-Joined the crew in July (or August) 1941 at Pearl Harbor
-It was an auxiliary ship that tended to destroyers
-Took care of 11 destroyers
-Supplied them with fresh water, fuel, and various repairs
-Had a constant stream of ships in need of service
-He was initially assigned to the welding shop, and he slept in a hammock
-Transferred to the blacksmith shop because they needed more help
-Stayed in Pearl Harbor unless they went to sea for exercises with destroyers
-Assisting the destroyers and participating in combat training
-Joseph was assigned to the 3in. antiaircraft gun
-Fired at tow targets (targets towed by planes)
(00:13:20) Service aboard the USS Thomas Jefferson (APA-30)
-Transferred to the USS Thomas Jefferson (APA-30) in 1942
-Transport and supply ship
-By early 1942, the Japanese had captured a lot of territory in the Pacific
-General MacArthur left the Philippines in February 1942
-Transferred command to General Stillwell
-Stillwell [MacArthur] pulled U.S. forces to Bataan hoping to hold out
until help came
-Eventually ran out of supplies and had to surrender
-The original plan was for the Thomas Jefferson to run the Japanese blockade
-Reach Bataan and get supplies to the besieged troops
-When he joined the Thomas Jefferson he was a fireman 2nd class
-The Navy needed officers, so he applied for the Naval Academy
-Failed the algebra portion of the test
-Commander offered to send him to preparatory school for nine months
-He could take the test again, but if he failed, he’d be sent to the Army
-Decided not to risk it
-This led to his assignment to the Thomas Jefferson
(00:18:08) Attempted Supply Mission to the Philippines
-He joined the Thomas Jefferson at Pearl Harbor
-Loaded with food and ammunition bound for the Philippines
-Told when they reached Midway they were sailing for the Philippines, alone
-The crew voted to wire the ship with explosives
�-This was to deny the Japanese the supplies if they were stopped
-Stopped at Midway and each man was given two beers and a chance to relax
-Sailed on for the Philippines, but someone in the crew sabotaged a propeller shaft
-Retuned to Midway for repairs, then set sail again
-Sailed for four days then received word that Bataan had fallen to Japanese forces
-Plan had been to slip into a Japanese convoy to get to the Philippines
-They would have then beached the ship near Bataan to offload their supplies
-Returned to Pearl Harbor to unload the supplies, then sailed to San Francisco
(00:24:05) Assignment to the USS Annoy (AM-84)
-Sent to Naval Station Treasure Island in San Francisco for reassignment
-Stayed there for three weeks
-Assigned to the USS Annoy (AM-84) being built in Portland, Oregon
-Went to Bremerton, Washington, to wait for the ship to be completed
*Note: Based on when he left the USS Thomas Jefferson and when the USS Annoy
was completed, it’s safe to assume he was assigned to the ship shortly before it was
launched in April 1942
-Conducted sea trials aboard the Annoy to see if it was ready for duty
(00:25:00) Aleutian Islands Campaign
-In June 1942, Japan invaded the outer islands of the Aleutian Islands
-They occupied Attu and Kiska, and bombed Dutch Harbor
-In response, the United States assembled a force to take back the islands
-Sailed to Kiska, and by the time they arrived, Japanese forces had retreated
-Conducted minesweeping missions around that island for two months
-Participated in the liberation of Attu
-Took 11 days to take that island
*Note: The liberation of Attu happened before Kiska
-Conducted antisubmarine and antiaircraft patrols around the Aleutian Islands
-Surveyed other islands in that chain
-Spent 19 months sailing around the Aleutian Islands
-In September 1943, they escorted a damaged destroyed back to the United States
(00:26:42) Assignment to the USS Impeccable (AM-320)
-Given seven days of leave, then joined the crew of the USS Impeccable (AM-320)
-Fleet minesweeper
-Capable of dealing with four types of naval mines:
-Contact: mines moored to the ocean floor that are triggered by contact
-Cut them loose, then had following ships destroy them
-Acoustic: mines triggered by noise from a passing ship
-Had an instrument on the bow of the ship to falsely trigger mines
-Electric: mines triggered by the electrical field of a passing ship
-Ship was degaussed and towed an electric wire to trip those mines
-Pressure: mines triggered by the displacement of water
-Used depth charges to trip those mines
-Only encountered that type during the occupation of Japan
�-Each of these mines was capable of sinking, or crippling, a ship
-Sailed with convoys
-Aside from minesweeping, they conducted antisubmarine and antiaircraft patrols
-Mostly did the latter during the Battle of Okinawa
-Convoyed with ships to the Marianas Islands
-Participated in the liberation of Kwajalein (January 31 – February 3, 1944)
-Participated in the liberation of Eniwetok (February 17 – February 23, 1944)
-Convoyed ships to Iwo Jima
-Mostly escorting “baby flap tops” (otherwise known as escort carriers)
-Liberty Ships that had been converted into simpler, smaller aircraft carriers
(00:35:23) Overview of Battles
-Present for the bombing of Pearl Harbor
-First major campaign was at the Aleutian Islands
-Saw action at Attu
-Stopped the Japanese from establishing a foothold in mainland Alaska
-From there, they could have bombed the West Coast
-Saw action at the Marianas Islands, Iwo Jima, and Okinawa
-Swept mines and searched for Japanese submarines and aircraft at those places
(00:36:30) Commendations
-Awarded the Pearl Harbor Commemorative Medal with one battle star
-Given to service personnel that were present for the bombing of Pearl Harbor
-Awarded the American Defense Service Medal
-Given to active duty personnel between September 8, 1939, and December 7, 1941
-Awarded the Asiatic-Pacific Campaign Medal with four battle stars
-Given to personnel that fought in the Pacific Theatre
-Awarded the Navy Good Conduct Medal
-Had four years of service without getting into serious trouble
(00:37:47) Life after World War II
-Enlistment was slated to end in 1947
-Had accumulated 180 days of leave, but had only used 40 days of leave
-Discharged from active duty in December 1946
-Moved to Belding, Michigan
-Got a job with a company that made electric appliances
-His wife was from Belding, so they decided to move back to Michigan
-Worked for the electric appliance factory for two years
-Moved back to Oregon City, Oregon, and got a job at the papermill
-Placed in inactive reserve for four years, and that was supposed to end in 1951
(00:42:55) Korean War
-He was called up for service in the Korean War in September 1950
-Discharged in 1952
-He was a chief motor machinist mate
-Placed in command of the engine room on the USS Moctobi (ATF-105)
-One of the first duties they did was tow a barracks ship from San Diego to Hawaii
�-He was transferred to an oiler based out of Hawaii
-Sailed to Kwajalein and stayed there for six months
-Went on to Sasebo, Japan, and refueled ships bound for Korea
-Finally got enough points and was directed to Yokohama to return to the United States
-Note: Points awarded based rank, combat, length of service, and dependents
-Sailed from Yokohama to San Francisco, and was discharged there
(00:46:11) Life after the Korean War
-Returned to work at the papermill in Oregon City
-Worked on paper machines
-Retired when he was 60 years old (c. 1982)
-Had a son and a daughter
-Wife was pregnant with their daughter when he was called up for the Korean War
(00:47:50) Life in Japan – Korean War
-The oiler didn’t have a cook, so they went ashore at Sasebo and hired a local girl to cook
-Gave her money to get food, then come back and cook for the sailors
-Ate a lot of exotic fish, octopus’ tentacles, and rice
(00:49:43) Veterans’ Groups & Reunions
-There was a Pearl Harbor Survivors Association meeting in Las Vegas in December 1998
-Went to Hawaii in 2015 for the 74th anniversary of the attack on Pearl Harbor
-Stayed for a week
-As of the interview, planned on returning in 2016 for the 75th anniversary event
-In 2015, there were only 22 survivors able to come to the event
-Most had either died or were incapable of making the trip
(00:54:17) Reflections on Service
-In the Aleutian Islands, they swept a huge number of mines, and it was dangerous work
-Ironically, by being in the Aleutian Islands he avoided seeing more combat
-Delayed his assignment to a fleet minesweeper, which probably saved his life
-Could have been all over the South Pacific in the middle of the action
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
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RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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RHC-27_BaileyJ2086V
Title
A name given to the resource
Bailey, Joseph (Interview outline and video), 2016
Date
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2016-02-26
Description
An account of the resource
Joseph Bailey was born in Prescott, Arizona, in 1922. He enlisted in the Navy in early 1941. He received his basic training and attended Metalsmith School at San Diego, and was assigned to the USS Whitney (AD-4). He survived the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor, and shortly thereafter was assigned to the USS Thomas Jefferson (APA-30). After an abortive attempt to bring supplies to American forces on the Philippines, he was transferred to the USS Annoy (AM-84) and participated in the liberation of the Aleutian Islands and subsequent patrols around those islands. He was then reassigned to the USS Impeccable (AM-320) and witnessed the liberation of the Marianas Islands, the invasion of Iwo Jima, and the invasion of Okinawa. His active duty ended in 1947 and he was placed in the inactive reserve. He was called up for duty in September 1950 due to the Korean War and was assigned to the USS Moctobi (ATF-105). He was then transferred to an oiler. For six months they refueled ships at Kwajalein before sailing to Sasebo, Japan, to continue refueling operations. He was discharged in 1952.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Bailey, Joseph
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Frost, Elaine Snyder (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
United States. Navy
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a>
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Format
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video/x-m4v
application/pdf
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/467e1f81c392f600b0d13b429929e637.mp4
cdf92e2b15775affa2a93c4e6b70e3b4
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/74cbcb312fc1cb31a39709f3634a27e9.pdf
366c3ede87a7e7288c3c179b4428873d
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Paul Bailey
Interview Length: (01:09:36)
Interviewed by Dr. James Smither
Transcribed by Chloe Dingens
Interviewer: We’re talking today with Paul Bailey of Grand Rapids, Michigan and the
interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project.
Okay, Paul, start us off with some background on yourself and begin with where and when you
were born?
I was born in Lansing, Michigan. My father was a tool and die maker in a factory.
Interviewer: Okay, what year were you born?
1936.
Interviewer: Okay. So, had you father had steady employment in the thirties?
Pretty much, tool and die maker; my whole family was mechanical, my grandfather was a
blacksmith. So, everybody built things so becoming a tool/ die maker was natural for him.
He quit school in the eighth grade and went to work in the shop. And he was never
unemployed as far as I know, he always had work as a tool and die maker.
Interviewer: Alright now, you were a little kid during World War II. Do you remember much
about life at that time?
(01.00)
�Yeah, I do. I remember my father was an air raid warden captain and he had these big
steel helmets that people had to wear during air raid warden time. And when they would
have these blackouts in the city of Lansing, everybody had to turn all of their lights out and
if they had a light on, they were supposed to cover it with a blanket. And then the air raid
wardens would go out and check on the residents who might have a leaky light coming in
somewhere that they forgot to turn off. But then after the war we remember playing with
those white helmets. They were steel helmets, they were very heavy, but as kids you play
with those helmets. They were white and had that civil defense symbol on the front of them.
That was kind of interesting times growing up.
Interviewer: Now, as you were getting older and towards the end of the war, were you kind of
following at all the news of the war? What was going on?
(02.03)
Not really because I would’ve been in junior high school or elementary school at that time
and well my brother who was ten years older was in the war. He was in the navy all during
that time. He guarded prisoners in Jacksonville, Florida; German prisoners that had been
brought to this country.
Interviewer: Alright, now let’s see, so when did you finish high school?
1954.
Interviewer: Okay, now so you had been in high school during the time the Korean War was
going on?
Yes.
Interviewer: Alright, now while that was going on, were you expecting it to last long enough for
you to be drafted and go in it? Or did you not think about that?
�I never thought about that, I just felt it was sort of my duty to join the army and get it over
with. So, I enlisted before I... while I was in high school, so that I graduated on Friday night
and left for the army Monday morning.
(03.01)
Interviewer: Okay and then that’s back in 1954, so that’s the year after the Korean War
Armistice is in place anyway, at that point; was there still a lot of people getting drafted at that
time?
There were, there were a lot of people in my first companies that were draftees and so I
had sort of wanted to become a member of the Michigan State Police, but that wasn’t in the
cards at that time. So that's when I opted to become a military policeman. That was my
goal.
Interviewer: Okay, now was that preference that you indicated when you enlisted? Or did you
decide on that later?
I decided on that before I enlisted. I wanted to go to the military police school. So of course,
they sent me to Camp Chaffee Arkansas for basic training. Then when we had two weeks
off and then we went to work in Fort Gordon, Georgia.
(04:07)
Interviewer: Okay, well back up and talk a little bit about the basic training experience. What
was personally Camp Chaffee like?
Hot! Being from Michigan, it was hot. I never got… my skin used to just prickle from the
heat. We trained, we had to get up at two o'clock in the morning to go to training because
after ten or eleven o’clock, it was just absolutely too hot to train. I remember even when we
did train, they lined us up, made us take our outer shirts off and just t-shirts then they’d
�hose us down with water to keep us from... keep us hydrated and so on. At that time, they
had Lister bags full of salt water the thing was you had to take and drink salt water that
tasted terrible. But they said we need to drink it to remain hydrated. One night it went
down to 70 and we closed all the windows and were freezing it went down to 70 it had been
in the 90s and 100s all eight weeks that I was there. Very, very hot and in Michigan we
don’t have hot weather like that. I was… I remember trying to write a letter home and the
sweat just rolled down my arm to my elbow and the paper I was writing on was all wet. Of
course, there wasn’t that much air conditioning, nothing was air conditioned in those days.
I mean there were a few things that were air conditioned, but nothing like we have today.
(05.32)
Interviewer: The barracks weren’t air conditioned or anything else like that?
No, the barracks weren’t air conditioned.
Interviewer: All right, now what did the actual training consist of?
A whole lot of marching and learning to shoot and you know rifle marksmanship and
physical fitness and you know it was pretty- it was tough training. But the toughest part
was the heat and you had to lay down and the rifle ranges had cinders that you laid down
in the daytime those would get very, very hot. They were still hot early in the morning
when we would go out to train. And you know the road marches where you’d put all your
stuff on your back and carry it. They actually limited some of those because of the heat.
(06:21)
Interviewer: How easy or hard was it for you to adjust to life in the army?
�I don’t really remember that being a big adjustment. I guess my hall was fairly well
disciplined and so getting in the army I just accepted taking orders and I never was very
resistant to anything, I just kind of went with the program.
Interviewer: Did you notice any of the other recruits having problems either with the physical
side or the discipline or anything else?
There were some issues with some of the other guys, some of the fellows had not been used
to taking orders and they had some resistance issues with the drill sergeants which didn’t
go over well with anybody. Sometimes the whole platoon would be punished because of
somebody that stepped out of line and didn’t do something right.
Interviewer: At the time you were going through, did you have any black recruits training along
with you? Or where you a white?
You know I’m trying to think back, I don't think there were any blacks in basic training. I
think in MP (military police) school there was. Not in basic training.
(07.36)
Interviewer: Alright, so again tell us how long basic training lasts?
Eight weeks.
Interviewer: Eight weeks, okay. Then Fort Gordon Georgia was your next stop?
Eight weeks.
Interviewer: And that’s your advanced training now?
For the military police.
Interviewer: Okay so what did that consist of?
That consisted of a lot of learning Judo hand to hand combat. Training in the 45 pistol and
some laws and rudimentary things about apprehension. How to handle ourselves in
�difficult situations. That was also very rigorous physically because the school thought we
needed to be tough. If you’re going to be a military policeman you’ve got to be able to stand
up to anybody and you don't just take any crap from anybody. You have to stand up and
you might have to put them down. Physical fitness, I remember before we could eat, we had
to do chin ups and the first time I showed off and I did 17 chin ups and so the next time I
went to eat he said now you have to do 19. And I said that was dumb, I shouldn’t have done
17 the first time because every time I went to chow, they made you do more than you did
the first time. And if you didn't do more than you’d drop down and do 20 pushups or 30
pushups. If they thought, you needed more they’d give you more pushups. Before you could
go eat! And one of the things there sometimes at the end of the day, after a day’s training,
they still needed somebody to go on and sort of be KP for the night. They would go through
and if you had just a little fold in your pocket that would be enough to send you to KP.
When they couldn’t find anything wrong, they would ask you to turn your belt buckle
inside out and if you sweat that day, it’d be a little corroded and give you KP. So, they'd
always have to find something to get someone go on KP every night. And you just hoped
somebody got nicked before you did. They’d go down the line and of course of you had a
pocket flap that was unbuttoned they’d come down and rip the pocket flap off and say, “get
that sewed up before tomorrow.” It was a spit and polish outfit. Because we had
everything, everything we had had to be polished, and so some of the guys would polish one
set of boots and really make them stand tall, put them under the bunk and leave them that
way. Well they wanted you to wear one pair one day and one pair the next, so they’d
marked them, then if they’d come in that morning and if your marked boots were there
then you got gigged and sent for KP that night. Because you had to switch, you had to keep
�all your shoes polished. And they had the foot lockers, had to be laid out just so. Every item
in the foot locker was a diagram and every item shaver, toothpaste, everything had to be in
a very- your socks, everything had to be just exactly in the right spot. And so, our barracks
were inspected every day. And I remember one night I had guard duty I think it was and
that night and I walked in one night. And so, my… I carried my rifle and when I got in that
morning, they said you were in charge of quarters, so they always left one soldier back as
everyone went to training. So, if you went back if that was your job to spiff up, do the lastminute polishing on everything in the barracks so that it would pass inspection, we were
inspected every day. So, I got the barracks all ready for inspection and lo and behold my
company commander was teaching a class on how to inspect that morning so he had a
bunch of students, he had a bunch of lieutenants that he was bringing through and showing
them how to inspect. And he says, “for example, Bailey get your rifle out and show them
your rifle.” Well I knew my rifle wasn't cleaned because I had been out in the elements all
night and so there was just a hair of rust on it, I mean you couldn't hardly see it, but they
noticed it. And then he put white gloves on and he went over all the windowsills and doors
to see if there was any dust that I had missed. I had already- I had knew he'd do that so I
had already dusted everything- cleaned everything, everything else was right, so the only
thing he found wrong was my rifle and it’s just because I was working as fast as I could to
get it ready and they came in kind of unexpected for the inspection so I wasn't quite
finished yet. And my rifle was the only one in the rack since everybody else was out
training yet. So, I remember that very distinguished. Then when I went to eat lunch, the
commander called me over to his table and I thought oh I was going to get it again. Then he
said- then he apologized to me, he said “we took unfair advantage and you were on guard
�duty all night. And you… once the inspections over you can go back to bed and sleep.” So,
he apologized for catching me off guard and making me feel kind of stupid on the spur of
the moment. He said, “we won't hold that against you.” But MP school was supposed to be
very tough and very demanding… and because we were expected to be a really good
examples of the military.
Interviewer: Right
Like I said our uniforms are supposed to be impeccable at all times and we’re just
supposed to be tough. That’s all there was to it.
(13.34)
Interviewer: Okay, now while you’re at Fort Gordon did you get a chance to go off the base at
all? Or did you just stay there?
Never did, never did. Never left the base and I- I didn't do it in basic training either and I
never left the base and then I think, I think I went right from there to Fort Jackson, South
Carolina.
Interviewer: Okay so that’s your first regular assignment then?
First regular assignment.
Interviewer: So, what was at Fort Jackson at that point?
Actually, The First Airborne Division was there. The Screaming Eagle.
Interviewer: Okay, so the 101st?
The 101st yeah. The only- I did regular MP duty there, but because it was my first
assignment, I worked with a Sergeant, he taught me the ins and outs of MP patrol and that
sort of thing. And I do remember one really humorous incident there. Was for some reason
or other the army always paid in cash. So, we had… before pay day there was, they'd bring
�in just a huge amount of cash and just set it on the table, they didn’t have vaults for it or
anything. And they- some other recruit who just ... who didn't know anything about the
army I don't think I mean it was very basic recruit. They told him to go to the finance
building and guard the money. Well it’s pretty boring on a military base at night because
things are very very quiet, and this guy decided... And they gave him what’s called a
military grease gun which he was not trained in. And about two o’clock in the morning, he
decided to experiment with the grease gun and he shot and hit one of the fire extinguishers
which was one of those soda acid fire extinguishers and bounced it off the wall and made a
mess in, in there. And I was on duty that night and we get a call, shots fired at the finance
building. So, we had all kinds of MPs, every MP that was on duty proceeded to the finance
building and when I got there, I was on the outer perimeter patrol and when I got there
they had him in custody already and he was just apologizing and he was just scared to
death of what he had done. And because we had commanders and colonels and generals
and everybody showing up at the finance building, finance officers, what could possibly go
wrong? And some guy just got bored in the middle of the night and shot the fire
extinguisher and that’ll get your attention. So, that was kind of humorous when it was all
said and done.
(16.19)
Interviewer: So, what were your regular duties at Fort Jackson?
Well just, we patrol, patrol the base and if somebody was speeding, we’d stop and write
them an apprehension of- a disciplinary report and send it to their company. And we
would check vehicles and if there was like I say a traffic accident that was our
responsibility. We didn’t really have a lot of crime, once in a while there was a crime.
�Deputy sheriff from the local town chased someone onto The Fort Stewart one time. He
said the guy was shooting back at him and they called us in, those of us that were off duty
got called in that day and told ya know, grab a car and start looking for this guy and I
don't remember if we ever found him, but we decided that the sheriff had shot his own car,
that the guy didn’t shoot at him. All the bullets were on the fender of that old Chevrolet
and they were all within inches apart, so we figured he was shooting out the window and
shot his own car. But that was kind of humorous.
Interviewer: Did you have any problems with any of the soldiers fighting or getting drunk or
things like that?
(17.40)
Once in a while- once in a while but usually our presence would... they knew that they were
in trouble when we got there. And even though the army wasn't segregated, it was as far, at
that time, and as far as the military police. Because when the black MPs went into the
black community we were told to stay out. We didn’t- unless they called us in there we did
not go into the black community.
Interviewer: Okay so this is if you’re going off base to bring back people?
In Hinesville Georgia and other places, maybe surrounding communities around Hinesville
Georgia or black MPs or black soldier might live or might be. But the black soldiers handle
the black soldiers at that time.
Interviewer: So, by this time, was it you were definitely noticing being in the segregated south at
this point?
Oh yes.
�Interviewer: Okay, had you observed that being in other places? Or really is it only when you got
to South Carolina that you noticed it because you got off base?
(18.38)
Again, in South Carolina, I didn’t get off base much, and- but I did notice that there was
segregation mean the remnants of it, if it wasn't there it was- you know it was evident, well
in Georgia there was white drinking fountains and whites only and colored was around the
corner so I did notice that and...
Interviewer: And did they have that kind of thing on the bases? Or just off base?
No no no just off base, no things like that on the base. And you know we lived with black
soldiers in the barracks and... Cause in 1956 I got married and so we were living in married
housing and so there were no problems of course as far as married housing.
Interviewer: But it’s still a situation that in the 50s the south is still segregated... Jim Crow is still
in place, but it doesn't affect, but the army is already past that.
We were pretty well integrated at that time yeah.
Interviewer: How long did you wind up spending at Fort Jackson?
I think just a few months. Maybe two or three months because… let’s see that would have
been… probably a few months, probably because I left Fort Jackson and went to… to
Korea.
(19.56)
Interviewer: Okay, alright, now were you expecting to get an overseas assignment, or did it just
come out of the blue?
Well this, this was kind of funny too because I walked in, they said there’s, there's some
opening if any of you want to go to the Far East. And I thought Far East man, I was
�thinking Japan. And I heard so much, so many good things about Japan and I thought I'd
like to go to japan. So, I went in to sign up and the sergeant said, you're already signed up,
you were going anyway. So, it was a fore got conclusion. So, when I got to Fort Lewis
Washington, I was in J company and J company meant you were going to Japan. Well Fort
Lewis Washington there’s thousands of soldiers. And they asked about while, probably
fifty or a hundred of us to go down and work KP and consolidated mess hall. So, we went
down to the consolidated mess hall about five o’clock in the morning and about nine
o'clock at night we got back and when we got back he said all you guys are in J company
are not in K company. Pick up all your stuff and you’ve got three blocks down the street to
go and when you see a big barracks and it says K company that's where you're going to be.
And I said J company, K company there’s a big switch here. And then the rumor was true,
we were all going to Korea. So, when we got on the- finally got on the boat. All these same
guys that were on the boat going to J company were on the boat with us. And then there
were guys going to Alaska, so our ship when we left Fort Lewis Washington was going to
Alaska, dropped off a bunch of troops in Alaska. Which is a site I'll never forget because
the snow was so deep, they were shoveling it with dump trucks. They literally backed into
the snowbank and brought it down and dropped it in the ocean. You’d see these little
specks up there and you’d see the tops of a Quonset hut sticking out and all these little
specs were shovels. There's two or three hundred guys up there shoveling snow, so it was
deep snow. So, we got through that, but it was a beautiful country but just the snow was
really deep. So then from there we landed in Sasebo, Japan and they let us off the troop
ship for a while and we got a little tour of Sasebo, so we found out that they drive all horn
and no brakes. And so, I went to the telephone exchange, I think that’s what they called it
�back then. And they had these sound proof booths that I could call home and say I’m in
Japan and so I called home and it cost, at the time it seemed like it cost $35.00 for my
phone for my call collect and that was a lot of money for a three- or four-minute phone call.
But I wanted to; it had been a long time since I'd called. Anyway, they suffered because the
phone call caused them a big bundle and then from there on, we landed in Incheon, Korea
and they loaded us on cattle trucks, open cattle trucks. And we stood with our- we got in
there as tight as we could, we stood with our sea bags in front of us with everything we
owned in the sea bag and then a guy yelled I think we can get six more on here, pull ahead
and jam on the brakes. So he pulled ahead and jammed on the breaks and we all slid
forward, just a foot or so, and a few inches but that was enough to get six or more guys on
there and then we went to the- from there we went to some kind of distribution hub and
then they put us on trains and I got to the 7th Division, they sent me to the replacement
company and the seventh division. They said, “where are ya headed” and I said, “I’m an
MP.” “Well they’ll be down to get you tomorrow morning. You're going to stay here for
the night, besides you’re on guard duty.” He handed me a M1 rifle and about fifty rounds
of ammunition and my instructions that night where to shoot anything that moves. And
here I was just ya know an eighteen-year-old kid just out of high school handed an M1 rifle
and all this ammunition and a bandolier of ammunition and told to shoot anything that
moved. And I grew up hunting and I said I don't shoot anything unless I got a target, ya
know I just don’t shoot. And they put me guarding a POL dump which is just a bunch of
barrels of diesel oil and gasoline and it was probably fifty feet square maybe, and they said,
“you guard that was down on the bottom of a river bed.” And it was a full moon night, I
could see good down there in the middle of the night and about one thirty, two o’clock in
�the morning some guy up on top of the hill started shooting: “boom boom bang boom bang
boom bang.” Then he yelled down to me, he said, “it’s coming your way,” I could see clear
there was nothing coming my way, but I was, you know, I was ready to shoot if I had to but
I didn't see anything to shoot at, so I didn’t shoot. When my shift ended, I got up there and
the guy said, “didn’t you see him?” And I said “no, nothing came down that riverbed I
can tell ya I could see that clear as daylight, nobody came down that riverbed.” Well he’s,
he was really angry with me that I didn't shoot. And I said I’m not gonna shoot that, I
wasn’t gonna shoot… unless there was a target. But we were- when we first got there, we
were infiltrated with slicky boys from Korea that came in and would steal everything we
had, they'd steal you blind. And so that was my opening night in Korea was hearing all that
gun fire and it went on all night long. I mean, after... you're on two hours you’re off four
hours, you’re on two hours or two and two something like that and everybody else fired
their rifle but I never fired a shot because I didn’t see anything to shoot at and I wasn’t just
going to shoot to.
(26.17)
Interviewer: Now what time of year was it when you got there?
March. March in the spring and they always had their floods in May. Their monsoon
season in April and May.
Interviewer: Okay alright, so were you just there at that depot overnight and move on to your
unit then?
Yeah, I got to my unit the next morning. And then they give you orientation at the unit just
kind of put you in a Jeep and drive you around, show you everything. I think my other
experience was these, we lived in tents and our water came in five-gallon water, military
�water jugs. And I had a canteen with a cup and I poured the water into the canteen and
said there was a bunch of stuff floating around in there and I went to pour it out and a guy
goes “don’t pour that our, that's what we drink.” So, I said “well mine has a bunch of
hunks in it.” And he said, “it all has hunks in it, that’s your drinking water.” So, I drank
the water, didn't throw it out, or I did throw that last little bit out, but the water wasn’t
exactly pristine, let's put it that way.
Interviewer: Okay well was this just stuff from the inside of the container or was it …?
(27.36)
No, I think- I don’t know where they got the water, someone said they got it out of the river
and then they ran it though kind of a purification deal, but it was canvas bags with stuff in
it and then, and then it went into one of the big water tanks. Each company went over and
got their water tank filled and then they’d bring it back and they'd fill these five-gallon
jugs from that water tank. Each barrack had a five-gallon water jug. I think when I first
got there, we didn't have showers either and so then they built a shower and then we could
go take showers and that helped a lot to get that in there. There wasn't much water when
we first got there. All our milk was in cans. Everything was pretty spark less put it that
way. And they announced one time that the PX down near the headquarters company was
going to have ice cream and that was several months after I’d been there, they announced
ice cream. And so, I think I was on duty that day and they said we need at least twenty-five
MPs down there because these troops are really getting anxious about having some ice
cream or milkshake or something like that. So, it was kind of, it got a little testy there for a
while and the military people pull a rank so if a private’s in line, and a sergeant comes
along, and they say get back I’m getting in there first. Well we went down there, and we
�tried to sort that all out and nobody was happy. And I think there was some, there was
some fights, we had to make a few apprehensions and then I got assigned to the desk, so I
was a desk, like a desk sergeant for a while. We ran out of Sergeants we didn’t have any
sergeants so they, if you were a specialist, they pulled you off and made you a desk
sergeant. Even though you didn’t have the rank even though there were desk sergeant. So,
everybody that was apprehended or whatever had to commend me, and I'd do the
paperwork on them.
(30.06)
Interviewer: Okay, now were you close to the DMZ where you were?
Yes. Well, yeah, the DMZ runs at a funny angle across Korea, so we were, we figured six
miles the way the crow flies to North Korea. I don’t know how long the DMZ is or how
wide it is but there were minefields all over the place that were still there that had never
been cleared and so there was a few people that got killed in mine fields while I was there.
But just knew better than to step out there. In fact, a major came in and borrowed one of
our shotguns to go pheasant hunting and he shot a peasant and went down in the minefield
and the guy knew better, don't walk on a mine field to get a pheasant it isn’t worth it, and
it blew him up and killed him. And so, it’s you know… people did some dumb things. As
far as minefield, I had two experiences in the minefield; that one and a guy took a
prostitute down to a mind field and they all blew up and some, a couple of them survived
but the one guy lost his man hood for sure and the one guy will never- well the one guy was
dead and one lost his manhood and a woman lost a hip and I was personally involved in
that one because I had to go out and help them extract the remains out of there and it was
at night and we couldn't see and so we had flashlights and a bayonet poking the ground
�and making sure you don't hit something and you hit a stone and you sort of sweat in all
joints. But the medics were there, and a couple of engineers were there and they probed it
and staked it out and then we extracted the bodies all out of there. But just people did some
dumb things when they…
(32.12)
Interviewer: Alright, now was there villages or a town nearby? People go off base and get
themselves in trouble or?
Everything around us was considered off limits.
Interviewer: Okay
So, we patrolled those areas. So, any time and of course they were inhabited by prostitutes
and we knew we put a bunch of twenty thousand soldiers over there they’re going to look
for women so it’s a no-win situation. The nearest town to where I was in Camp Casey was
Dongducheon and the nick name for it was little Chicago. And when… in order to get into
the town by the road off the MSR, main supply route it required four-wheel drive and low
range. I mean, it was so pitted and bottomed out that there wasn’t, there wasn’t any
smooth road, it was up and down and then when you got in there the roads were okay, the
streets were okay, but we patrolled those mostly on foot and we’d take our jeeps as far as
we could go and then we'd just look for any evidence of GIs being in there and then we’d
find them apprehend them, take them out of there but there were other villages I don't
know their names but a lot of the little villages around the hills that we also went looking
for people…
Interviewer: Straying soldiers?
(33.48)
�Straying soldiers, right.
Interviewer: Alright, now were the North Koreans making much trouble at this point?
Occasionally when I first got there we would get unidentified flying aircraft coming
through and we actually had a pillbox in our compound and when we’d get a call of and
unidentified flying object or an unidentified airplane we were required to go get out fifty
caliber submachine gun and set it up on the tripod and arm it and of course by the time we
did all that that plane was south of Seoul probably, and we were twenty-eight miles south
of Seoul, so we had to go through that routinely and it was kind of, that’s where the
physical really comes in because a fifty caliber submachine gun I don't know how much
weight, but it seems like about a hundred pounds. And you carry that from the arms room
a couple hundred yards to the pill box and you set it up and then we got it too, so we didn’t
load it. We just carried the ammo because we figured by the time, we’d see that plane it’s
all over anyways. We were just too close to North Korea like, but I said by the time you get
the warning it'd be all over with.
Interviewer: Okay, but as far as you know where the North Koreans doing any snipping or
sending any artillery shells your way or anything like that?
(35.15)
They had skirmishes with the South Koreans at the DMZ, there were several little
skirmishes where they would just tough each other and shoot back and forth across the
DMZ but it wasn’t- you didn’t hear too much about it. You'd hear about it in a hind sight
but the news, it was very slow with something like that but if somebody tried to escape and
go to North Korea then we pulled out all the plugs and we, we would, the US army would
really come to a full alert if there was somebody making any kind of an aggressive move
�towards North Korea. Every once in a while somebody would say “I’ve had it with the US
army or whatever and I’m going to North Korea.” Well we would do everything possible to
stop that from occurring. We would hunt that person down and catch them.
Interviewer: Do you know if there were any that actually made it?
I don't think anybody made it. We did, we lost one of our MPs and he got off on his own
and I think he was captured by the North Koreans, but he made a lot of bad moves and we
found his Jeep and that’s all we ever found of him. Never heard what- never heard what
happened to him or anything.
Interviewer: Alright and then how long did you spend in Korea?
Sixteen months from shore to shore.
Interviewer: Aright and then over the course of that time what particular events or things stand
out in your memory that we haven’t talked about yet?
(37.00)
Oh I think the flood was interesting, when it was flooding our whole intersection flooded
and we were at T intersection in which we had a traffic control post up on a tower like and
we would signal the traffic so on, and so during that flood I got flooded in and so I realized
there was about three foot of water below me that wasn't there when I climbed up in there.
And that was a little tricky to know where the ditches were and where the road was
because I had to walk a couple hundred yards back to my compound. The compound was
dry but between the compound and the road it was under water. The other- the other crazy
thing that happened, this was before the flood, I'm up there directing traffic one time and I
see this two and a half ton truck come by and there's a guy I went to high school with in the
back of the truck and he was with the quartermaster company which was just over the hill
�because we had an air strip right there with a small reconnaissance plane you know 19s
now 20s but he was in the quartermaster companies just across- wasn't that far away. That
was kind of funny. One other story about Korea that I remember vividly, we went- we went
on big whack so we’d been on the big whack and they said okay we’re moving and so we
moved, it was at night, we got to this new place at night, set up our tents at night.
Everything was at night, so we all went to bed and soon got our tents set up. And then early
in the morning, I guess we were there a couple of days. The first morning I got up and I - I
walked out to the road didn't have any idea where we were because we... from there we
didn’t get out of our compound that much, so we were out in the middle of nowhere as far
as I was concerned, but still in Korea of course. And being an MP I see this jeep coming
down the road just absolutely speeding, really flat out. And so, I stepped out into the road
and I flagged him down and here was a man severely injured laying in the front of the
Jeep. And I knew that there was a medic station right there where we were, so I said, “we
got medics right here.” So, I rushed him in there and he said, “we need a helicopter.” So,
we had these cranks via field telephones and we were on bivouac and we had new code
names on bivouac. So, I knew the code name because I’d called a helicopter before. I knew
the code name was Nashville, so I said, “give me Nashville” and they said, “we can't do
that” and I said- they said, “it’s a term we can’t use” I said, “don't give me any crap I have
an injured man and I need a helicopter right now.” So, he talked to somebody and said put
him through to Nashville, so he put me through to Nashville. With a helicopter attachment
1212 back to the hospital in Uijeongbu. And he said, “so what do you need.” I said, “I've
got a man down.” He said, “where are you?” I said “about ten/ twelve miles west of
Uijeongbu on this road there's this a school across the street that we built. Looks like a
�brand-new school.” And he said, “we’re on the way.” So, I hung up that field telephone, I
looked at my watch and it was ten o'clock in the morning exactly, he said- and then the
guide told me to throw out a smoke flair to signal the helicopter, so I went over to the
medics and said, “you got a smoke flair?” “Yup.” I said, “hand it to me.” So, I'm standing
there waiting to pull the pin on the smoke flair. While were all standing there, they're
working on this guy, getting him ready to go to the hospital and by the time I heard the
helicopter, it was over us. So, I pull the pin on the smoke flair and flew it out, he may want
it’s help to set this helicopter down. The medics loaded him on, they had ladders on both
sides of the bell helicopter, they loaded him on and he said, “okay, we’re on our way” and I
looked up and he was on the way. I looked at my watch and it was ten after ten. In ten
minutes, they were on their way.
Interviewer: They’d gotten good at that. Alright, did you have Koreans working on the base?
Oh yes.
Interviewer: And what kinds of work did they do?
Mostly kitchen and housing keeping service. Of course, they had- one as a servant in the
office quarters. He got into trouble, he urinated in their orange juice. They looked for him
and we never did find him because... (laughter). He was given the death sentence, they
wouldn't have killed him, but they probably would have tried, but they weren't too happy
about that.
(42.00)
Interviewer: And did you have any Korean soldiers who were assigned to you.
Yeah we had what you called Katusas and yeah the Katusas, they drank in the same
barracks with us, we got along great with the caduceus. They were wonderful Korean
�people and at that time I didn't like Korean food, and they would come back smelling of
Korean food, you could smell them when they’d come in the barracks, “what have you
been eating?” “Oooh good kimchi,” yeah well, they didn’t use breath mints either and so
you could smell those guys when they’d go on out leave and come back, because oh man
they reeked, and I’ve since learned to love that food myself, so it’s… it’s very healthy for
you. But, but when it was Korean help, I noticed their diet was almost- almost one
hundred, almost 100% rice. I mean they would eat a wash basin full of rice for lunch and a
few vegetables but mostly rice. They’d bring rice in by big bags and they’d cook it
themselves and use chopsticks they’d eat a lot of rice the help did.
Interviewer: Now were these guys also working as MPs?
(43.24)
The Katusas were MPs, we worked with them and it was nice, I really appreciated working
with them because they could work enough English so that we could get by and they taught
us a little Korean so that we could understand a little Korean.
Interviewer: If you went patrolling in the village and things would they come along?
Oh yeah, oh yeah, and they were- they were good ambassadors but they were also, they saw
something that was wrong, they would- they would make the Koreans toe the line I mean
they didn’t- they didn’t take any nonsense from anybody but they were very friendly and
the people were friendly towards them and they sort of knew who the Koreans that were
troublemakers. And they would say “that bad person” or something like that. And we
didn’t really, we didn't have too many conflicts because they settled all those conflicts.
�Interviewer: Right. Now you mentioned when you were there that the first night about the people
who would try to come in and steal things and so forth, was that going on on the days… was that
going on on the base?
Yeah, they were, that's why we had perimeter guards, all our compounds had perimeter
guards. And some of the help would steal things, even the help would… and when the help
would leave, the MP company stayed, the MP company was right next to the MSR so all
the people in the divisionary, the help would walk past our guard shack leaving. And it, it
became routine for us to check, they would steal, they would take stuff like grease
drippings from the bacon, they’d have a whole pail of just grease or cooking leftovers and
our routine was to take a stick and poke those buckets because often times there might
have been a pistol or a rifle parts, or some other contraband in that grease down at the
bottom. And so, then we apprehend those and turn those over to the Korean police. We had
a good relationship with the Korean national police. They were-they were extremely brutal,
the Korean national police, the corporal punishment was routine and if you stepped out of
line, they would kill you, there was not no ifs ands or buts about it. They would shoot and
ask questions later. And I stood next to a Korean policeman who was aiming at a Korean
who was running and the guy standing next to me bumped him just as he shot and it really
made the Korean policeman angry, because he knew it, we didn’t want to just stand there
and see someone shot, but he said that that guy was a gangster and he needed to be shot
and so he was angry with us for not letting him kill him and we were just, we were just too
easy going I guess at that point.
(46.29)
�Interviewer: Now did you get to go any further? Than the local towns. Did you get into
Uijeongbu or Seoul or anywhere?
Well I went to Uijeongbu with just a national police station and then one on a Sunday
afternoon because I was admitted to go into the village. I took my camera and sort of made
it a- a of course at that time you take thirty-five-millimeter slides. I took about a hundred
slides of typical Korean when I was there, and I’ve been thinking about getting those
transferred onto a CD or something because there’s a way you can do that, or something
like that. But I got a nice little trip that showed Koreans in their natural habitat and I had
one other instance when I, I almost cry when I tell it, but we’re one patrol at night and
there was a group of us, MPs and we had- we had these guys sort of cornered so there was
probably ten of us MPS and we were moving in to make an apprehension. And just as we
came out of the corner there were little Korean children by a small light. They were
singing, “jingle bells” in Korean, “nahhnoonahhh” and we just stopped, all of us just
stopped. We just pulled out C rations and gave them candy bars, forget the guys. We just
sit and sat there and talked to those, I mean they couldn't speak, they couldn’t speak any
English but of course there was a lot of, what do you call it, Eurasians or something you
know. The children of GIs and they were outcasts of Korea they... Koreans didn’t want
them, so it was a real real problem… but children left over from the GIs of the war and
some of them wouldn’t have been there when I was there. I mean cause I wasn’t there that
long.
Interviewer: Yeah
(48.33)
�But that was a very touching story and I’ve told it a lot of times, we just we forget, we quit
chasing the bad guys and we sat there with those children and we melted to hear Jingle
Bells, when we haven't heard anything like that in months! Even though they were singing
in Korean, we understood what they... we knew the tune. That was one of those night time
experiences.
Interviewer: Alright, and did you get any leave time or R and R or anything like that?
We did, we- I got to Japan and that was a very very nice experience at the special
experience I got to go to a services hotel. The second time I got to go to Japan, our orders
came in late in the day and so we’re hitchhiking to Inchon to Kimpo to get a flight out to
Japan to Inchon and the military kind of shuts down in the evening so here comes this
Korean civilian Jeep and we were kind of apprehensive, and the guy sitting in the front seat
says “jump in, where are you going?” and I said, “we’re going to Kimpo.” Well he says,
“my name is Dr. Charles W Choi” and he says, “I went to Syracuse University I’m a
professor…” and he went on and he was a professor of engineering or something like that
and I thought well this is great and he said, “I'm going to Seoul but my driver will take you
on out there” he said, “I did a lot of hitchhiking when I was in your country.” He said,
“when you get to Japan look up my family because I’ve got a couple of daughters.” I said
oh boy just an old boy from Alabama and, this is really a set up. So we got to Japan and I
made a call and called his family, they invited me out, I had to take a train out there, found
the family, they invited me in, of course I had to take my shoes off at the door and that sort
of thing, in the military you wore your boots all the time. I took my boots off at the door,
then they fed me some banana stuff I’d never eaten before, but it was alright I mean… and
he said, “my daughter will take you around and show you the sights of Tokyo.” So, I went
with her and she ordered a cab driver, it wasn’t really a date, it was sort of an excursion.
My buddy from Alabama, he didn’t go, it was just as well because he kind of stayed drunk
most of the time while we were over there, and I think he would have spoiled the whole
thing. But for me it was very educational, experience, I really appreciated the family and it
was nothing sexual or anything about that encounter. It was just a very nice family and
they took us in and it was just very very nice to me and so that was a very interesting
experience when you’re scared to death to get in a civilian, Korean civilian Jeep, because
you don’t know who... who’s back there because the people who can afford a jeep can be
really bad people at that time. And we were unarmed cause we’re going… most of the time
we carried out arms with us all the time but when you’re going on an R and R and you
have to check your arms- in the arms room. But yeah that was a- that was an experience to
meet a professor from Syracuse University. We’d taken his training there.
(52.08)
Interviewer: Now how much communication did you have with people back home while you
were in Korea?
�Mostly letters and then my mother would send packages and send cookies that always went
over good, sometimes if... they were, they were mostly crumbs by the time they got there
but if she sent them on aluminum you could make a funnel out of it and eat the crus. But
they didn’t survive the bouncing around at the military post office.
Interviewer: Alright, now do you also, aside from pictures, picked up at least one souvenir out of
Korea, and you’ve actually got it over here and if you wanted to pick it up and... Hold it up high
enoughThere was a Korean craftsman who came around andInterviewer: could you hold it up a little bit higher? There we go, yeah.
And he said, write down on a piece of paper my name and what I want on it and he said for
two cartons of cigarettes I’ll do this. So, he said you give me one carton now and when I
come back, give me another carton, so I did, and I kept this ever since.
Interviewer: Alright so it’s got your name on it, identifies your unit and it’s got the US flag and
the UN flag and the South Korean one on it. What else have you got on the bottom there?
Just the years I was there, oh that’s the hourglass divisions is the 7th Division patch, and
they cross pistols are indication of the MPs and then the(53.44)
Interviewer: Right, you’ve got your dragon through the whole thing. Alright, we got that okay.
Alright so when do you then get to leave Korea?
When did what?
When did you get to go back to the states?
I got back in June of ‘56.
Interviewer: Okay and how much time did you have left on the enlistment?
�Seems like about a year, so I went there then I went to Fort Stewart Georgia and resumed
military police patrol duties.
Interviewer: Okay now was that when you got married when you were back in Fort Stewart?
Yes
As opposed to being in Fort- because you mentioned being married back at Fort Jackson.
Well between Korea and Fort Stewart.
Interviewer: Okay, so did you- did they give you some leave time when you got back from Korea
right?
Yes, I got I think I got, I don't know how much I- we got.
Interviewer: Okay, alright and so what was that last year at Fort Stewart like?
Well that was just normal police duties and of course driving cars, which I’d been driving
Jeeps for six months now I get a car, that was different. Again, the military police is fairly
well disciplined place so if somebody steps out of line, you know you’re right there, you
writing them up. Then of course we also had civilian traffic at Fort Stewart, so we, we
apprehended a lot people who were hunting on the military reservation illegally and then
the federal majesty would come in hold court and we'd have to go and testify that we
caught this person and he was- the fines for hunting illegally on military reservation was
very steep, even at that time. In fact, they would confiscate their shotguns, their rifles and
sometimes it’d be a thousand dollar fine and I’ve seen them pulled a thousand dollars out
of their wallet and pay their fine, but I didn’t see- I never seen anyone go to jail but
trespassing on a military reservation was...
Interviewer: So, these were not just poor people looking for dinner?
(55.56)
�No, these are… well I don’t think those people we caught, that was two hundred eighty
thousand acres down there in that Fort Stewart and we did- there were some illegal
moonshining going on out there in the reservation and I wasn't involved in catching it but
we went out there one time to try to apprehend people who were, who had a still back
there. But by the time, by the time we got the word they were going on the raid, they, they
had the word that we were on the way and they were long gone. There was- you can’t
surprise anyone down there that’s in that business, they, they have a second sense that
they've been caught, so they flee long before we get there. But it was a large military
reservation and there were some bad accidents down there and that sort of thing but other
than that...
(57.00)
Interviewer: Okay and then your wife was living with you on the base with you at that point?
Yes, we lived in married housing.
Interviewer: Okay did she have a job of some kind?
She worked on the base at the health center, she was a secretary in the health center. She
had to get used to the differences in languages of people down there and people said, “go
out and roll your glasses up” and she said “glasses?” And they meant the windows in the
car, they were referring to the windows in your car. There was a lot of little terminology
that we had to learn moving to a different part of the country.
Interviewer: and did the army make any effort to encourage you to stay in?
Oh yeah, they really put the heat on at the very end. They give me all kinds of incentives,
and I said no I don't think so. You know, so I said, I would reenlist if they would send me to
CID school, criminal investigation. “Well that school’s been full for several years they only
�take so many candidates.” I said, “that’s it, that- if you promise me that,” “well we’ll put
you on the list.” “No not on the list, I gotta have sure orders that I’m going there, without
those orders I’m out of here.” But my company commander, my first Sergeant, I went to
church with them down there in that chapter. So, we weren’t strangers, in fact in the
chapter we were kind of buddies, but then once we get back to the unit, we understand the
chain of command. But one little addendum to all of this, in 1993 I got a chance to go back
to Korea. With a group of pastors from Michigan and that was a real eye-opening
experience because I did get a chance to go back to Dongducheon because what used to
only be four-wheel drive then is now a four lane freeway coming in from the south. So, to
see that country, the difference between the 1950s and 1993 was daylight and darkness.
There were no tall buildings left in Seoul in the 50s, everything was destroyed or knocked
down and now we ate dinner in a sixty-story Hyatt Regency hotel building in 1993 and they
were getting ready to host the Olympics shortly thereafter and they had a great deal of
publicity about how good their country was. And they didn’t underestimate it, they had
done a tremendous job of rebuilding that country.
(60.00)
Interviewer: Alright, now when you’re leaving the military did you know what you wanted to do
next?
Well I wanted to get back into police work, but God had different plans for me, I felt called
to ministry so I kind of, after a couple of police administration and public safety, I opted
for ministry and went off to a college and became a united Methodist pastor.
�Interviewer: Alright, okay well i think that’s about to the end of the story and it’s also the end of
the particular tape. So, I’m going to close out here by thanking you for taking the time to share
the story.
Thank you very much.
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Veterans History Project
Creator
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Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
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The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
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1914-
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
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Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
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RHC-27
Language
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eng
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
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RHC-27_BaileyP2116V
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Bailey, Paul (Interview transcript and video), 2017
Date
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2017-04-18
Description
An account of the resource
Paul Bailey was born in 1936 and opted to join the Military Police after graduating high school in 1954. Bailey attended Basic Training at Camp Chaffee, Arkansas, and then Fort Gordon, Georgia, for advanced training to become an MP. His first regular assignment was at Fort Jackson, South Carolina, during which he noticed the pervasive racial segregation of the south. He was then sent to South Korea where he was statationed six miles from the DMZ and border with North Korea. Bailey returned to the U.S. in 1956 and spent his last year of enlistment at Fort Stewart, Georgia. After leaving the service, he worked a couple of police administration and public safety jobs before entering the united Methodist ministry in which he studied to become a pastor.
Creator
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Bailey, Paul F.
Contributor
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Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
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Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American
United States. Army
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
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video/mp4
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Moving Image
Text
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Veterans History Project collection, RHC-27
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401.
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
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eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/37018e9c970b1ad7a42123bad7b5d54c.mp4
902bc5212fc07f2cda2aff2c3f64debc
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f0b0aa7c0ecb24dd3c131d83e89d1251.pdf
b4ea4f520cb2bfa4fe3e8d812c68f716
PDF Text
Text
RHC-88 Fei Hu Films
Flying Tigers Interview
Interviewer: Frank Boring
Interviewee: Chuck Baisden
Date of interview: June 8, 1991
Transcriber: Frank Boring
[TAPE 1]
FB:
Chuck, we'd like to begin with, what were you doing prior to hearing about the
opportunity in China?
CB:
Well, I was stationed in at Mitchell Field on Long Island with the 57th Interceptor Group
and we went up to Windsor Locks, Trumbull Field on gunnery, I think it was April '41.
And when we got up there, why we were told there was going to be a meeting. Trumbull
Field had an old building that I think had been a mill one time and I was going to have a
meeting. So we went to the meeting and they closed all the doors and all that sort of stuff
and Skip Adair…
FB:
Please start again, from the beginning.
CB:
From the beginning, OK, I was at Mitchell Field, we went up to Groton, Connecticut, at
Trumbull, and we were up there for gunnery. and we got a notice on the bulletin board
there was going to be a guy there talking to us about, we didn't know what, anyway, we
went into the building, and they closed the doors and Skip Adair was there to meet us and
he gave us this, which at that time was sort of a song and dance, but he said we need
people to go to China to patrol the road up there and we're going to build airplanes over
there. And I was Staff Sgt. at the time I was making $72 a month and the question came
up are you going to travel for a year? And the pay was $350 a month in 1941, $350 a
month was a lot of money and of course I was, just turned 21. So I, bunch of us, [?]
Sheffield and I, we put our names on the list and then we, nothing more happened, we
went back to Mitchell Field and one day they said go down to base administration - they
wanted to talk to you, so we went down to the basement, they had the blinds drawn - they
had a rack of civilian clothes and we all got our pictures taken and I had GI uniform on
and some kind of a sport coat on and then a fellow said, "What's your job?' I said "Well
I'm the aircraft armor." "What do you do?" I said "Well, I take care of machine guns and
load bombs and etc., etc. "You're a metal worker." I said "No that's different. I'm an
armorer." "You're a metal worker." And he finally convinced me that's what was on my
passport so I went overseas as a metal worker and I heard some of the other fellows went
over as all kinds of things, but that's what I went overseas as.
FB:
What were you doing prior to hearing about the opportunity in China?
CB:
Well, my unit was in Mitchell Field, Long Island New York, 57th Pursuit Group. Col.
Phil Cochran was the CO. Phil Cochran was, or actually Phil Corkin?. Anyway, we went
up to Groton with the 33rd squadron to do gunnery at Trumbull Field and while we was
1
�there, they told us to report to the main building for an interview. And it turned out it was
Skip Adair. And he gave us a presentation of going to China to do patrol on the area there
over, I guess it was Loiwing to keep the Japs from bombing the place while we
assembled airplanes. And he also gave us the one year contract and being that I was
making $72 a month as a Staff Sgt., $350 really impressed me. So that's how it got
started. We went back to Mitchell Field and in, I forget the month of it, we were told to
report to Base Administration, and the State Dept. was there taking pictures and they had
us all lined up with civilian clothes so we had our pictures taken and at the time they
asked me what I did. I told them I was aircraft armorer. When they wanted to know what
an armorer was I told them, and they said "No, you're a metal worker." I said "No, I'm an
armorer, that's different." "No you're a metal worker." That's what I went over as, as a
metal worker on my passport. And I got discharged from the Air Corps on June 2nd, no
I'm wrong, I got discharged May 24th from the Air Force, continuance of the
Government discharge, they made us turn in all our field equipment but they let us keep
our shoes and part of our uniform, we had to cut the buttons off and then on the June 2nd
I signed the contract with Camp Co, at the Rockefeller Plaza.
FB:
What did you know about China at this time?
CB:
Absolutely nothing.
FB:
Once again, I knew absolutely nothing about China.
CB:
About China, I knew absolutely nothing. That was a place I hadn't been to and I wanted
to see. That's about all I could say at the time. I didn't know anything about their customs
or like you said, I knew nothing about China.
FB:
What did you know or hear about through news reels or anything like that about Japan or
what was going on in China?
CB:
Other than we thought, I think most of us thought, that a couple companies of Marines
could probably go in and clean their clocks, that's about what we thought. We didn't
know nothing about the Japanese. You take them looking at a, maybe our powers that be
did, I don't know, after Pearl Harbor, I don't think our powers that be knew everything
they're supposed to know.
FB:
In terms, you mentioned that somebody told you about the AVG, but how did you
actually hear about this opportunity? What was the process?
CB:
I believe there was a notice on the bulletin board. No I, when we first heard about the
AVG, it wasn't called the AVG, it was tied up with the Camp Co, or Continental Aircraft
Manufacturing Corporation. was the cover and I really don't, I think it was on the bulletin
board, but I really don't remember.
FB:
What was your motivation, and why get involved in this? I mean, were you satisfied with
where you were, or?
2
�CB:
Well, I was the Staff Sgt., I'd been through Air Corps. Tech. School and I was perfectly
happy and I went in the service in 1939, 1941, I was a Staff Sgt., Air Corps. was
expanding and I was not unhappy with what I was doing, in fact I liked work. But I also
liked to travel, and let's face it, there was the money consideration. And like I said, it was
$72 as compared to $350 and you finished your contract, you got $500 bonus and that's
really the reason I went. I didn't have any dumpses?, I didn't like the, when I went in I
had planned to spend my 20 or 30 and get off, I was going to be career airman, because
the military was something that I was always interested in.
FB:
What was it that Skip Adair told you in terms of what you were to be doing and what to
expect?
CB:
Well, when Skip Adair was talking to us at Trumbull Field I really didn't understand too
much of what we'd be doing, we'd have a fighter squadron there, a fighter group, and
whatever your job was that's what you would work on and that was about all we knew.
We were just going to another country and to get paid for, that's really about all I knew
about it.
FB:
Could you describe for us the process? If you could describe for us the process of
resigning your commission and what was it you actually had to do and did you have any
difficulties in getting out?
CB:
Well, when they came to get me out of the service, I was an enlisted man. I didn't resign
no commission. I had a Staff Sgt. pin at war which they gave us at that time, but it was all
automatic - we just reported in for discharge and got rid of our clothing and they gave us
an honorable discharge convenience of the Government and we went out of the base.
That was the end of it. There was no, in fact, I don't know whether it was a relief or what,
when I went through the gate, I said well I'm starting a new something or other and
anyway, when I went off base I was running around with a gal in Weehawken, New
Jersey at the time, so I had to go see her. That's Ft. Willis time. And on the bus going
back, I lost my wallet, $150 bucks lost. So when I got home I was broke and my dad said
where are you going? I said I'm going to China, yes I'm making $350, he said well I'm
making $50 a week so he said be my guest. So that was the whole story of it. Went down
to Sunbury, Sunbury, Pennsylvania. and Carl Bugler, and I think it was Rich Graham and
we went by train to L.A. and there was a whole bunch of us on the train and I remember
stopping in Wyoming and Johnny Fauth and a bunch of them wanted pistols and you stop
at Cheyenne, Wyoming, and you can go to the nearest pawn shop and buy the whole store
out if you had the money, so we took Johnny Fauth and a bunch of them and I bought
them all pistols. Being I was supposed to be the expert, I really wasn't. They thought I
was. And we bought a bunch of pistols and stopped in Cheyenne. We went on to west
coast and then they put us up at the Jonathan Club and that was, they made a big mistake
at the Jonathan Club. Here's a bunch of young GI's that just retired and everybody thinks
there, whatever you want to call them, and guys started running up phone bills, that's the
first time in my life I ever had grapefruit served in a silver container with a big spoon and
3
�all of that stuff, and I thought, boy we're living high on cotton right now. They moved us
out of there and we went by bus to San Francisco.
FB:
I would like to get a little more detail. Could you describe your own personal
observations, your reactions, arriving at the Jonathan Club in Los Angeles?
CB:
Well, we got off the train and I think we took a taxi to the Jonathan Club and walked in to
it and it was a big, old building, soft leather chairs, and all that sort of stuff and looked to
me like there was a bunch of, I didn't know at the time what they were, they were very
dignified gentlemen, gray haired, I found out later more of them were retired Admirals
and Captains and Generals and what have you, how they let our bunch in there, I have no
idea but maybe the [?] had something to do with it. And I was very impressed with the
meals and the being served by a butler and in the meantime the fellows were having quite
a time, they were just turned loose and here we've been under fairly strict discipline and
marching from point A to point B with everything buttoned up and we were turned loose,
fellows started running up long distance phone calls and charging this and charging that
and I think the bills got out of hand and in the meantime, Joe Poshefko, my friend, came
down with appendicitis and they had to take him to the hospital. He was one of the
reasons he didn't make our, he was on the original bus that went over but he didn't make
it on account that he had had appendicitis and because I just know at the time I was just
wondering what happened to Joe, I thought he had just gone over the hill or something,
but he hadn't, he was sick. And other than that, I don't remember too much about the
Jonathan Club, everything is sort of hazy, what went on there.
FB:
Now once the decision was made to leave the Jonathan Club, I understand you were
going to San Francisco, I wonder if you could describe how you got to San Francisco?
CB:
Well, when we left the Jonathan Club, for San Francisco, we went by bus. On a chartered
bus. And I remember going up there - it was hotter than a pistol. The fellows got us a big
old washtub and they filled it fill with ice and they filled it full of booze and beer and we
got about half way up there and I remember getting off the bus, we had a short rest stop.
There was no facilities. So have you ever seen about 15 guys lined up along the highway
doing their thing? And most of them were pretty well smashed. But I can remember that
because I took a picture of when I was there. I think the driver was glad to get rid of us
when we got to San Francisco. And I don't remember even the name of the hotel that we
stayed at when we got to San Francisco. I remember we spent the night there, I don't
remember where we stayed, we didn't stay there very long, they got us on a boat to get
our butts out of there. I think the States were about as glad to get rid of us as anything
else.
FB:
Now, at this time it was around June 1941, you boarded a boat called the President
Pierce, I wonder if you can give us your observation of the boat itself and your reaction to
it.
CB:
Well, when we left San Francisco, we were on a cargo passenger ship called the President
Pierce, the U.S. President Alliance and of course, we thought we'd have some kind of
4
�state rooms and this was the first time I began to exactly wonder what we were getting in
to because they put us up at one of the lounge or lobby, all we had were cots and we were
really crowded, the whole bunch of us was in, I don't think Frillman was, but everybody
else was in cots in this lounge. And we took off and sailed from there to Hawaii. We got
to Hawaii, in the meantime, we also had a bunch of kooks going over there going to the
Philippines. When we got to Hawaii, we were there overnight. And I remember old P.J.
Perry coming on board and at that time, booze was pretty cheap in Hawaii and so old P.J.
come staggering on board and he had a jug of liquor on his shoulder trying to get up the
gang plank. And he made it but I don't know how. And anyway, we left and we gave the
Colonel a tough time, going over there. He always had an inspection - everyday he had an
inspection - and I really didn't see any reason why I had to pop to because he came by,
being 21 years old, when he came by, he'd reamed me up one end or the other so I went
and told the fellows. Next morning the whole bunch of us was sitting back on the fantail
waiting for us. And he came back there and all the, he took one look, he just turned
around and walked away, Frillman had called us in to have a meeting, and said the
Captain would appreciate it if you fellows make yourselves scarce when they have a,
when the Colonel. does an inspection, but we wouldn't have put up with that stuff. And I
think that would give you an idea of what kind of guys we had. We knew our job but we
wasn't going to put up with a bunch of other stuff.
FB:
Give us as much as possible, we read the Frillman book and his real trepidation, he was
nervous around, of letting you guys know that he was even a Chaplain to begin with, I
don't want you to answer yet, give me a brief answer, you did meet him in the hotel right?
CB:
I think we did, I don't really remember, I just remember him being on the boat. We no
doubt had met him, but I remember him being on the boat, because that's when he started
calling names and,
FB:
OK. We want all that detail, on the boat then.
5
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Flying Tigers Interviews and Films
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
United States--History, Military
China--History, Military
Veterans
China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Description
An account of the resource
Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War.
Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG.
Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Boring, Frank
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a>
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1938/1991
Contributor
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Fei Hu Films
Christopher, Frank
Gasdick, Joseph
Misenheimer, Charles V.
P.Y. Shu
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Format
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video/mp4; application/pdf
Language
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English; Chinese
Type
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video; text
Identifier
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RHC-88
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1938-1945
World War II
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Moving Image
A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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RHC-88_Baisden_Chuck_1991-06-08_v01
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Baisden, Charles
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1991-06-08
Title
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Chuck Baisden interview (video and transcript, 1 of 11), 1991
Description
An account of the resource
Interview of Chuck Baisden by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Chuck Baisden was an armorer of the AVG 3rd Squadron, "Hell's Angels." He joined the American Volunteer Group (AVG) in 1941 after signing a covert contract with Continental Aircraft Mfg. Co. He was with the first forces to reach Burma and was stationed at Mingaladon and Magwe, Burma and Loiwing, Mengshi, and Kunming, China. He left the AVG at the expiration of his contract in 1942 and enlisted as a T/Sgt. in the US Army. In this tape, Chuck Baisden describes his background in the American Air Corps before becoming involved with the American Volunteer Group and his journey overseas from San Francisco.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Boring, Frank (interviewer)
Christopher, Frank (director)
Fei Hu Films
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
United States--History, Military
China--History, Military
Veterans
China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives.
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Format
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Language
A language of the resource
eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/03fbe0ef94e876410cdcda615b3fe77a.mp4
bc3865f3e68de239a51c6d49140a5271
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b1e0dc5da37568915943e1cb271f5825.pdf
d905a323962ea7adf6e41cfe33a78ab6
PDF Text
Text
RHC-88 Fei Hu Films
Flying Tigers Interview
Interviewer: Frank Boring
Interviewee: Chuck Baisden
Date of interview: June 8, 1991
Transcriber: Frank Boring
[TAPE 2]
FB:
Tell us about your reactions to and your observations about Chaplain Frillman?
CB:
Well Paul Frillman, Chaplain Frillman, I don't remember when I first met him, but I do
remember him being on the boat after we left San Francisco and I respected him because
he was very fluent in Chinese and I knew he had a heck of a job on his hands, trying to
control it and - I think he was a little apprehensive. But he was trying to do his job the
best he could and some of the fellows listened to him, some of them didn't, but I liked the
fellow. He'd been a missionary over there, he could speak Mandarin. I don't know if he
could speak Cantonese or not and he had a little language class while we were going over
there and we learned How Bu How and - I think that was about it - all I remember
anyway. Personally I didn't run into him much during the - after we got over to China I
didn't see too much of him, he was around but…
FB:
What was his responsibility for one thing and then what kind of things did he try to do on
the boat that either you reacted positively or negatively to?
CB:
Well Jack [?] when we were on the boat was more or less in charge of him. I think
probably Mr. Pawley was the one that put him in charge and he - actually what he did, he
tried to smooth things over on the boat going over. But we had several incidents on the
boat. One being an Army Colonel who would make an inspection every day - he would
make an inspection and I was sitting back in the fan tail one morning and he came by and
all the young Lieutenants popped to and I sat there, I didn't see any reason to get up. Boy
he chewed me out from end to the other and left. Well I went and told the rest of the
gang. So the next morning we were all sitting there waiting for him, none of us was going
to get up. He stuck his head out of the port hole and he took one look and he turned
around and went back. Then Paul Frillman came in and he said "Fellows the Captain of
the ship requests that you don't be back in the fan tail when the Army Colonel makes his
inspection in the morning," and we didn't, we left it alone. He didn't really come forward
being the guy that was gonna tell you this and tell you that. He didn't do that. Like I say
he was just sort of like a speaker for us, other than that we didn't have much to do with
him.
FB:
In terms of the Army discipline that was on the boat with these other soldiers, what was
the reaction of the AVG group on - give us a sense of - here you are, you just got out of
the military and for your various reasons you're going to China and here's this Army
group on board that has to stand up to attention and all that.
1
�CB:
Well our feelings with the Army troops on board, we really didn't have much to do with
them. Of course the troops themselves, we didn't hardly see anything of them and the
officers, the young officers, most of them were Air Corps and I wasn't talking. I might
have talked to them, but I wasn't saying where I was going - I just didn't do any talking.
We just said we were going to China and that was it. Of course these fellows were going
to the Philippines. So I really didn't have too much to do with them. Not that I didn't like
them, but we actually spent most of the time playing nickel knock poker going over. We
played nickel knock poker day in and day out and that was about the only thing we could
do.
FB:
What was the - I guess what I'm looking for is - you're on this boat, you're playing poker,
you're meeting these new guys from all over the country, what was the process of getting
to know these guys - some that you liked, some that you didn't like
CB:
Believe it or not, when we were on the boat there were 28 of us I think or 29 of us, we
knew almost everybody. Most of the fellows had been from the East Coast. We did pick
up some from Selfridge? Field and the Air Corps at that time was pretty much of a
family. If you'd been in the Air Corps a couple of years, you knew a lot of people and that
was just about what it was. I just knew everybody and of course we had our own little - 4
or 5 of us used to pal around together and that's the way it was. Really we didn't spend
too much time characterizing each other. We were just a bunch of guys and that's what it
amounted to.
FB:
What kind of incidents can you recall that happened on the boat itself? Were there any
humorous things that happened or anything that you can - sticks out in your mind?
CB:
When we were on the boat, I don't remember much of anything on the boat other than
that it was rather boring. See we went from Hawaii to the Philippines. Now we stayed in
the Philippines - they had - I forget what they had on board at the Philippines - their ship
- but they had to steam clean all the tanks, and I think they took coconut oil on or palm
oil and we must have been there 10 days. Well they gave us $100 expense money when
we left San Francisco, which everybody had spent by the time they got to Hawaii and I
remember being on the boat because we were broke and we spent one night at the
Grayson Hotel. Well we spent the rest of the time on the boat because we didn't have any
money. They gave us checks and I remember Rick Schramm and I were on the same
check, they didn't have enough checks to go around, but they wouldn't cash it for us in the
Philippines, so we spent 2 or 3 days drinking Sasparilla and Philippine gin and it's quite a
mixture. Sasparilla is something like our sarsaparilla and you mix it with Philippine gin
and you've got quite a…and of course we perked up there. One of the fellows had been
stationed in the Philippines and he had to take us to one of them big cabarets. I mean it
was a big thing. It had a big old second floor rotunda around it and things were pretty
cheap. We left there and we went to Hong Kong and they cashed our checks at Hong
Kong. The Chinese came in and scarfed up all our weapons. Every one we had they took
them, locked them up in the Police Station and I think they were sprayed with water anyway they were all rusty when we got them back. We stayed there just overnight I
think it was, left there and then we took another boat to Singapore. And we left quite a
2
�record in Singapore. We stayed in Singapore at the Raffles Hotel. We had quite a time at
the Raffles.
FB:
Now this is where we need some detail because the next group that came over was not
even allowed off the boat because of the record that you guys made in Singapore. Can
you give us an idea of what happened after you got off the boat?
CB:
Well, we got off the boat at Singapore and went to the Raffles. I just remember my first
acquaintance with a Dutch widow and I don't know whether you fellows have ever met a
Dutch widow or not, but it's a long roll that you curl around at night to keep you from
sweating so bad and it's called a Dutch widow. Of course we had fans going above us and
mosquito nets and it was hotter than a pistol there in Singapore. I remember going around
- we went to the Tiger Balm Gardens and we went to the Happy World Dance Cabaret
and Charlie Kenner - we were there one night and Charlie Kenner won the jitterbug
contest. Later on I talked to some of the Japanese and they said "Oh we went there too".
So they occupied the same place. I don't remember how long we stayed in Singapore.
Then we went to Panang. I gotta backtrack - we took a Dutch Packet Boat from Hong
Kong to Singapore and then from Singapore we went to Panang and then onto Rangoon.
We had an English ship that from what I heard belonged to the Kaiser and it was a
settlement after World War I - it was a settlement that he'd made. It wasn't too much of a
ship but that's how we got into Rangoon. So we actually came on over in three ships.
FB:
I guess the way I'll word this question is, why was it that later groups were not even
allowed off the ship into Singapore? What happened that caused such a commotion?
CB:
Well when we were in Singapore some of the fellows may have made a name - I
remember one of them that happened, they were booted out of the swimming club
because of their curfews. I don't remember the reason. They pried up all the footbaths
which must have weighed 4 or 5 hundred pounds apiece and they chucked them in the
pool and that made the British very unhappy. Also bringing native women into the
Raffles that tore up the British - I mean they couldn't stand that. I remember one fellow
brought one in and she had a ring in her nose and she was dark and had a sarong on. He
carted her in and sat her down at a table and got her smashed and that was probably one
of the reasons they wouldn't let the rest of the guys in. I hung around with Carl Bugler
and - I forgot the other fellows' names - but we didn't get involved in any of this. I lie a
lot too.
FB:
Describe your arrival in Rangoon and I'll set this up for you. Here you are, you're a young
American, you've never been out of the country at that time, what was your reaction,
what was your observation on your arrival in Rangoon?
CB:
When we arrived in Rangoon it was in June, I remember going up the river to Rangoon
and I remember it was hot, it was rainy and it didn't look like anything. When we got of
the dock, I don't remember how we got to Midlow Mansions? - I think we went by taxi
and we got in there and that's where I first saw General Chennault, he was there to meet
us. They said now get your rooms ready and the Chinese are gonna give you a banquet
3
�tonight and 15 minutes after we got there, within a half an hour there were Japanese there
from the embassy and they came rushing in. I know Tex Blaycock said "I'll throw one of
them off the balcony" and they just looked around and they left - nothing really
happened. That night we had a big banquet by the Chinese embassy and Chennault was
there and that's when I got an impression of Chennault. Chennault looked to me like he
was looking right through you and you could figure when he was looking at you, he was
taking you on. I have an awful lot of respect for the man. He didn't say much. Anyway
we went through an umpteen course dinner and spaced by many a shot of scotch whiskey
and I guess the thing broke up around midnight and one of the fellows came up to Charlie
and said "Charlie Chennault wants you to take the station wagon and the Burmese driver
and you take the hold baggage to Taungoo." Now why I was picked I have no idea.
Maybe I was the soberest one of the lot, I don't really know. But anyway [?] the Burmese
driver and the old wooden station wagon - can't remember what the make of it was, but
rattled on up to Taungoo and I got to Taungoo, met my first Ghurka troop - a little guy
standing out there with a big stick and a big curved knife and we finally got the British
officer, NCO, the officer out there and told them - they'd been expecting us. So I spent
the night in the barracks with these little old lizards that kept dropping off the ceiling and
I wondered what in the hell have I gotten myself into here. The next morning the troops
came in, they came up by train and I went down to meet them. They must have had quite
a trip coming up there because this one place they stopped, they grabbed a hold of P.J.
Perry and they pulled off his trousers and the train pulled out and P.J. is running up the
track trying to catch up with them with no trousers and I guess the natives thought that he
had a new type of suit on or something, but anyway he got on the train. You never heard
so much grouching in your life when we got into Taungoo, because Taungoo was a hole,
I mean it was a hole. That was our introduction to Taungoo - we had no airplanes, the
barracks were made out of teak and thatch and had outside johnnies, or heads, or
lavatory, whatever you want to call them and rain. The rainy season was just getting over
with, but it was raining, the humidity was 95%.
FB:
I'm gonna go back over about this Taungoo. What I'd like to ask is backtrack just a little
bit. We're gonna talk in more detail about Taungoo - here you are on the [?] group, what
happens to you?
CB:
Well that's like I say, when I first met Chennault, meanwhile he was looking us over, lord
knows what he was thinking. But when I talked to him it was "Yes Sir" "No Sir," I had an
awful lot of respect for the man and he looked like he'd been flying in an open cockpit
airplane for 100 years. He was that type of fellow and you had to talk a little loud, he
couldn't hear very well. I didn't have any long conversation with him at that time. I
thought of Chennault like I thought of Phil Cochrane, when I was with him later in the
Air Commandos, here's a guy that I'll follow and the same with him and Jimmy Allison
was another one.
FB:
The question I want - this will be the last part of the meeting Chennault for the first time what I'm trying to get a sense of is this group to Chennault - was there an automatic - like
this is the leader now we've gotta shape up or was it still this kind of treatment you gave
the Army?
4
�CB:
It's hard for me to say about the group - as an individual I had my own opinion and I can't
really say about the group. I just don't know. I think some of them thought that they were
getting in over their heads and they're gonna flip their way out, but I really don't know. I
knew the way I felt - I was gonna do what I was supposed to do and I think most of us
felt that way. There were times that we had doubts of what we - sometimes we had our
doubts. It looked like it was a rinky dink going on - things we were told, didn't happen. I
don't think it was the fault of General Chennault, it was just they didn't happen.
FB:
Give us a sense of what you mean by that. What were some of the things that you
thought…?
CB:
Well see, when we got up to Taungoo it was hot, it was rainy, we weren't used to that
kind of humidity, it was a pretty good hike down to where the flight line was, we had no
airplanes. The airplanes were assembled at Rangoon and flown up and when the first
planes got in there we didn't have any tools. We were using tools that came in the
International pickups - the International station wagons was what we had. We used tools
that came out of the trucks and that's not the tools to work on an aircraft with. Then the
food, we had a private contractor - I forget what his name was - but he was ripping us off
and were getting slop - absolutely it was terrible and on top of that - in the topics, no air
conditioning, no refrigeration and things got smelly - we did have a pretty good little bar
where we could get Batavia beer, I think it was and a few little items like that, cigarettes.
So we got a little disgruntled. But then those planes started coming in and we got real
busy. Because every one of the wing guns had to be filed down so you could fit the darn
things in there. Aircraft had to be bore-sided and sights had to be installed - we were
busy. And once we got busy - another story.
5
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Flying Tigers Interviews and Films
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
United States--History, Military
China--History, Military
Veterans
China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Description
An account of the resource
Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War.
Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG.
Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Boring, Frank
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1938/1991
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Fei Hu Films
Christopher, Frank
Gasdick, Joseph
Misenheimer, Charles V.
P.Y. Shu
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video/mp4; application/pdf
Language
A language of the resource
English; Chinese
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
video; text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-88
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1938-1945
World War II
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Moving Image
A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-88_Baisden_Chuck_1991-06-08_v02
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Baisden, Charles
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1991-06-08
Title
A name given to the resource
Chuck Baisden interview (video and transcript, 2 of 11), 1991
Description
An account of the resource
Interview of Chuck Baisden by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Chuck Baisden was an armorer of the AVG 3rd Squadron, "Hell's Angels." He joined the American Volunteer Group (AVG) in 1941 after signing a covert contract with Continental Aircraft Mfg. Co. He was with the first forces to reach Burma and was stationed at Mingaladon and Magwe, Burma and Loiwing, Mengshi, and Kunming, China. He left the AVG at the expiration of his contract in 1942 and enlisted as a T/Sgt. in the US Army. In this tape, Chuck Baisden discusses his journey to join the AVG overseas and his observations upon their arrival in Rangoon.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Boring, Frank (interviewer)
Christopher, Frank (director)
Fei Hu Films
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
United States--History, Military
China--History, Military
Veterans
China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives.
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video/mp4
application/pdf
Language
A language of the resource
eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/00b2c36d5e3dc4a62dfafad0a7e766e9.mp4
caa4c0fd83d8cd58291973ef8d006592
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9367e230f18b51902a5e76e428bdb564.pdf
757ea6a2d7f0da0e9e476e5d440f03da
PDF Text
Text
RHC-88 Fei Hu Films
Flying Tigers Interview
Interviewer: Frank Boring
Interviewee: Chuck Baisden
Date of interview: June 8, 1991
Transcriber: Frank Boring
[BREAK – TAPE 3]
FB:
What we'd like to do now is to get your reaction to the conditions in Taungoo. Where
were you, what were you working in, the environment you were working in, what were
the barracks like - you already talked about the food, but give us an idea of the living
arrangements and your work arrangements?
CB:
When we got into Taungoo and started to operate, the airplanes started coming in, the
rainy season was still on but it was coming to the close of the rainy season. It rained
about every day. When we first started working there, we only worked a half a day. The
planes would come in and we'd start - we had an armor shop some little ways from the
runway - we started putting the guns in them and the P-40 we had then had two
synchronized 50 calibers and they had four wing - 30 caliber wing guns. After we got the
guns in then we had to harmonize them and we had a place on the runway where we had
our targets set up and we'd go over there and we'd try to get the pilots to come out there
with them and we'd fire the 50 calibers with a screw driver because you couldn't fire
synchronized guns unless the engine is running and you can't run the engine that fast.
Actually synchronization is something that's gone down the road years ago, but when I
was there at that period of time, your ability to armor was pretty much how well you
knew that system because you could shoot a prop.
FB:
This part of it I want to spend a lot more time on and once again you're talking to a group
of people that have no idea what you're talking about, so if you would, let's first get back
to the conditions themselves in Taungoo, the barracks and your working environment.
My next question actually was what your first duties were, but let's get the basic area
straightened out first.
CB:
The living conditions in Taungoo were pretty primitive. We didn't have much. It was hot,
it was humid, we had outside showers, we had outside latrines and at night when you
went out there you'd take a flashlight because you usually had a scorpion sitting there
next to you. I don't know if he had the G.I.'s or what but he'd be sitting there next to you
waiting to give you a whack. We weren't impressed, but it's what we had. Most of us got
bicycles as soon as we could. We could buy bicycles for about $30 and we started using
bicycles to go back and forth. A lot of snakes - poisonous or not I don't know, but we had
a lot of snakes and we'd see them on the road and they'd get under the barracks and they
had centipedes and they had what they called a Burmese centipede which was about that
long, they had real nasty looking legs on them. They said if they crawled across you
they'd go like that and it would smart. Mainly we just weren't used to the weather, but we
1
�worked a half a day and took a half a day off. Then as we got busy we just worked from
dawn to dusk we were busy.
FB:
What were the barracks like?
CB:
The barracks were British built barracks. We were all on long teakwood, thatched roof bamboo I guess it was. The beds were typical Indian beds, they were wood, probably
teak, with slats across them or rope and a solid mattress and of course we had mosquito
nets and that's just what it was, it didn't amount to too much. I've got a picture of it
around here someplace - what my cot looked like. We had overhead lights and it wasn't
too great.
FB:
Can you recall, for example at night laying there in the bed or something like that - the
sounds - what kind of insects - do you remember any of that kind of stuff?
CB:
Well all I remember is the little chameleon lizards, which the Burmese were great for
having, because they eat bugs. They'd fall off the ceiling - now they wouldn't hurt you
and they took a little bit getting used to, but nights just were nights, I couldn't tell a great
deal of difference from there or any other place except we didn't hear a lot of noise. It
was rather quiet, you'd hear the crickets or whatever the noise was in the background - we
didn't hear anything like tigers or anything like that roaring in the distance. Nights were
relatively quiet.
FB:
Do you recall any incidents in which you had to confront a snake or any of those kind
of…
CB:
One time we had one get underneath the barracks
[BREAK]
FB:
Refer to the snake
CB:
One night one of the fellows yelled "There's a snake under the barracks." Everybody
came running out, we're all armed with our pistols and so on and so forth and he must
have popped 20 or 30 rounds under the barracks at that snake. Joe [?] finally threw his
shoe at him, killed him with his shoe - we never did hit it with the guns. Another night
our Armor Chief, Hoffman, said "Turn off the lights." Nobody answered. "I said turn off
the G.D. lights" Nobody answered and Powww he shot them off. Shot the one over his
head anyway. He said "I told you to turn off those lights" and some of the fellows started
getting monkeys and the monkeys weren't very nice - most of them. They'd steal stuff off
you and then get up in the rafters of the barracks and they weren't all that great. One
fellow had one riding a bicycle and you'd see him going down the road on his bicycle, a
monkey perched on the handlebars. Barracks life wasn't too much, but other than sleeping
there, we didn't spend a lot time in them. After I had my bicycle we'd go up to from
Taungoo we'd go outside the gate and head toward Prome and it was pretty nice riding
the bike out there. Then as the season started cooling down a little bit, it wasn't too bad. I
2
�didn't think too much of the Burmese. The Burmese Pongees, the priests, they had free
access of the base and they wandered all over the place and we had Burmese laborers
working in the thing and then the Chinese came in so we had Chinese working for us.
Like I say, the Third Squadron I was in had 25-30 aircraft and there were 5 armorers.
Well 5 armorers can't handle it by themselves, so we - but that was it. No night life - we'd
go down to Taungoo to a movie and they showed some real old ones and I don't
remember what they were now - but we'd go down there and they'd play the British "God
Save the Queen" and the "Star Spangled Banner" and we were down there one night and
some British soldier down below us said "Where's the Yellow Stripe?" and that did cause
a riot, because the first class was up in the balcony, that's where you sat - and then they'd
have intermission where you'd get a drink or whatever you wanted, but when they closed
this thing, we had a regular riot in there. Guys were jumping off the balcony down on top
of them and it was quite a show.
FB:
Let's get more detail about this and I don't understand what a yellow stripe is - what
caused all this?
CB:
They showed the American Flag
FB:
Let's start from the beginning. Give us an idea of what happened.
CB:
Well they played "God Save the Queen" and everybody stood up, then I guess for our
benefit they played the "Star Spangled Banner" and they showed the American Flag and
this fellow downstairs said "Where's the yellow stripe?" See they were in the war and we
weren't. This was before the war started and when he said yellow stripe it just ticked
everybody off and they didn't do that again.
FB:
I'm sorry to belabor the point but first of all we don't understand what yellow stripe
means
CB:
A yellow stripe means coward. In Singapore too, same way. They had a regular riot in
Singapore at the Happy Dance Cabaret. I jumped out the window and I left. I didn't stay
there for that because they were clobbering everybody with - that may be another reason
they wouldn't let the other guys land. I left, I don't even know what happened. I didn't
want to know. But the British troops were not - the officers were friendly enough, a little
starchy, but they were friendly, but the enlisted men were - they were something else. I
remember a lot of nice Noncoms and stuff like that, but they weren't all that friendly until
later on, then they got real friendly, when they were getting their butts beat, they got real
friendly with us.
FB:
Let's go into your first duties in Taungoo once the airplanes started to arrive. You said
you were on half days, then everything started to really pick up, but give us an idea what
the work was like. What was the reaction of the people you were working around? Did
everybody chip in or was there some guys that sloughed off and some that guys that
worked?
3
�CB:
Our work at Taungoo was pretty much individual work. We all knew what we were
doing. We were all qualified and they would say well you've got an aircraft out there that
needs weapons installation. You didn't have to go ask somebody how to do it, they
expected you to know how. So you went on your own but actually to install the weapons
on a P-40 it really took two people. Those 50 caliber machine guns were relatively heavy
and it needed two people to do the work. They brought some Chinese down - all Chinese
armorers and they were officers and I had one assigned to me. He couldn't speak English,
I couldn't speak Chinese but we got along real fine and what we had to do was install the
wing guns - there were four of them, then we had to install the 50 calibers - there were
two of them, then we had to synchronize the machine guns. Now synchronization was a
whole art of itself. People think that they're firing through the prop - a machine gun is
automatic - it's not. The propeller is turning and in the back of the engine - and the most
inaccessible place normally - they have what they call a generator and that generator
turns, it turns with the rotation of the propeller. There's a wire that runs from the - called
an impulse wire, an impulse tube - runs back to the machine gun and it's tied with what
they call a trigger motor and as the prop turns the generator turns, it pulls this wire back
and forth and it pushes the sear in and only when that's in position, will that gun fire. The
gun appears to fire automatic as the propeller is turning, but it's the propeller that actuates
the mechanism that's making the gun fire. Now if you over speed the prop, you're liable
to shoot the prop ahead of you, if you under speed the prop, you'll liable to shoot the one
that's in, because the synchronize - the point of impact depending on how far behind the
propeller the gun is, determines where you fire it. The P-40 was synchronized about an
inch and a half from the turning edge of the blade. Theoretically when a gun fired the
bullet would go right between the two props. So if you sat down there idling your motor
you're gonna shoot your prop, if you speed it up you're gonna get the prop coming up. So
you could shoot a prop and we had enough problems with shooting props anyway without
goofing that up.
FB:
We've never gotten any of this. People have talked about shooting through it and in fact
Dick Rossi talked about how he actually shot one of his props. We've talked about props
being repaired but we've never gotten this kind of detail. If you could continue on then in
terms of - you've gotten into the synchronizing of the guns which is good, what condition
did these planes come in? You said you had to install the guns on it. I think most people
would assume that the airplanes just came in and were ready to go.
CB:
When the aircraft arrived from Rangoon,
[BREAK]
CB:
When the aircraft, the P-40's arrived from Rangoon to land at Taungoo, they were just
made flyable. The radio equipment was installed, the gunsights were installed and the
armament was installed. The armament came in crates and we had to take the cosmoline?
off them and clean them and we did have Burmese that were working in there and was
doing that at the armament shop. All the other stuff was just all accessories were just put
on there. Then we had the four wing guns, 30 caliber machine guns that were mounted in
the wings, they had to be mounted and most of them we found we had to file the trunion?
4
�mounts in the aircraft itself in order to get them to mount right, because they fit in, they
went down to a socket in the back and there were two little lugs below that you had to
turn, and they just wouldn't work, so we had to file them. That wasn't really a tough job,
you just had to do it. Then when we got all that done, we'd take them out and we'd bore
sight them and bore sighting is actually making the weapons shoot where you want them
to shoot when they want to shoot, and it's all figured on the angle of attack to the aircraft
coming in at a certain speed, what position his nose will be when he makes this attack called the angle of attack. We'd take the aircraft out to the gunnery range, we'd set two
jacks up, we'd run a bar through the lifting bar through the back - there was a whole back
on the tail - we'd run a bar through there and we'd lift the tail up and we'd back a truck
under it. We'd back the truck under it and then we'd take a car jack and then one of the
fellows would get in the cockpit and he'd put a bar across the - there were leveling lugs in
the cockpit - there was one up here in the left and ones in the back and then there were
two across. He set his gunner's quadrant - the gunner's quadrant actually is a level and
you set it at mils nose up or mils nose down, you want your aircraft set at. You set that
thing up there, then he set the dial onto it and you would jack the tail up until the bubble
was centered, then you'd lay the bar across the other way and this had to be level - no
mils onto it. Then you'd put two wing jacks under each side and you'd jack one or the
other up until the aircraft was level. Then you'd take the gunsight and you'd set your
gunsight on the bull. Then you took the machine gun and you could bore sight the
machine gun - you could look through it you got the target. Now Chennault had his own
system. The left wing guns, your target was 20 foot wide, left wing gun fired at the right
target, left inboard gun fired at the target next to it, the right outboard gun fired this way,
the right inboard fired that way and your 50 calibers fired right straight. So what you got I don't remember what the range was - 375 yards or what it was - that's called a fire
intersected and if you shot at anything there, you got all six guns just going in one spot
and it would tear anything apart that was made. Well we fired bursts from the wing guns
and then we'd fire a couple of rounds with a screw driver till we got them on the bull,
then we'd take the target down and we'd fire a burst, maybe 25-30 rounds from each of
the wing guns. We couldn't do that with the 50's. And that [?] how you got them ready.
We'd try to have the pilot out there. Now our gunsights, they were terrible because we
had to make them. The P-40 had a bullet resistant glass in the front. The ones that were in
the States were pre-drilled and you could mount your reflector sight on that. Now what
we call a transparent rear. Actually the gunsight itself was set down here below the pilot,
down on the floor and it projected an image up to the windscreen and you could see your
circle and dot or whatever it was, you could see that. They couldn't mount them, they had
no way of drilling those holes, so they had to make a gimmick, which they made, it was
curved down and actually it was tied onto the pilot's grab bar - when he pulled himself
out of the airplane. Well what kind of grab you could get you pulled the side off. The first
one they made was aluminum, they used brass rivets. Well in that weather you got
electrolysis and your sight worked loose. We also had a fixed gunsight and I think from
what I've talked to the pilots, most of them used the fixed gunsight and most of them
didn't do any deflection shooting which is - the airplane is here, so you aim your airplane
here and hopefully it will run into it. Most of them didn't do that, most of them would get
right as close as they could get and just tear them apart and they would use their
5
�gunsights - the fixed ring [?] gunsight. That's what they told me, I never had a chance to
do it myself, so I don't know.
6
�
Dublin Core
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Title
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Flying Tigers Interviews and Films
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
United States--History, Military
China--History, Military
Veterans
China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Description
An account of the resource
Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War.
Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG.
Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor.
Creator
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Boring, Frank
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a>
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Date
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1938/1991
Contributor
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Fei Hu Films
Christopher, Frank
Gasdick, Joseph
Misenheimer, Charles V.
P.Y. Shu
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Format
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video/mp4; application/pdf
Language
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English; Chinese
Type
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video; text
Identifier
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RHC-88
Coverage
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1938-1945
World War II
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Moving Image
A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
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RHC-88_Baisden_Chuck_1991-06-08_v03
Creator
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Baisden, Charles
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1991-06-08
Title
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Chuck Baisden interview (video and transcript, 3 of 11), 1991
Description
An account of the resource
Interview of Chuck Baisden by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Chuck Baisden was an armorer of the AVG 3rd Squadron, "Hell's Angels." He joined the American Volunteer Group (AVG) in 1941 after signing a covert contract with Continental Aircraft Mfg. Co. He was with the first forces to reach Burma and was stationed at Mingaladon and Magwe, Burma and Loiwing, Mengshi, and Kunming, China. He left the AVG at the expiration of his contract in 1942 and enlisted as a T/Sgt. in the US Army. In this tape, Chuck Baisden describes his reaction to the living conditions and barracks in Taungoo, in addition to his first duties when the aircraft started to arrive there.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Boring, Frank (interviewer)
Christopher, Frank (director)
Fei Hu Films
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
United States--History, Military
China--History, Military
Veterans
China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives.
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Format
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Language
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eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8b59c127b369536b62c6acf29dd66f3d.mp4
25f9c28e5ebe4872a1bf3e1e0b87db36
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/bb3a5cc5edcfc8ee08582f4b9e6af5e1.pdf
6f30825c5780f768d4a9257be70b0c7e
PDF Text
Text
RHC-88 Fei Hu Films
Flying Tigers Interview
Interviewer: Frank Boring
Interviewee: Chuck Baisden
Date of interview: June 8, 1991
Transcriber: Frank Boring
[TAPE 4]
FB:
What we would like to do now is get more into the working relationship that was going
on. Now granted you each had your own duties. You were involved in the armaments and
you had group that's working and everything, but did you get the impression was it your
observation that this was a full working unit? Or was there certain people doing their
jobs, certain people that weren't doing their job. What was your observation in terms
working relationship of the AVG at this particular time?
CB:
Well, we start working, we was pretty much on our own. What everybody else, there
were people working in the hangers, they had people here they had people there. From
what I could see everybody was working. I didn't have any time off. Once in a while we'd
take off and go a little bit. Some of the guys seemed to have a little more time than
others. Now the pilots seemed to have more time than anybody. That includes R. T.
Smith. I read his diary and he has more damn time off then I ever thought. I'll get you R.
T. He used to listen to a lot of music I think. But the fellows, we worked together because
the crew chiefs and everybody, everybody was working there is no doubt about that. Of
course the pilots when they started to fly they had big problems. We had guys flying
these PB1 what had been flying patrol boats. They were busting up airplanes and we
busted up a few, ground crew had taxi accidents. Guy would fly an airplane in and chew
up the tail off of one and that sort of stuff. Guys as a whole were working and like I say,
guys knew what they were doing most of them the most part.
FB:
Let's now address your area, the armaments area. There was you and there was beginning
Burmese and eventually the Chinese came in. Is that accurate.
CB:
Well, let me, the Chinese helped installing the weapons. The Burmese strictly worked in
the armor shop cleaning guns, that's all they did. They didn't mess with the flight line at
all. They just cleaned guns. We also had Chinese in there cleaning guns. Mainly Chinese.
FB:
OK, let me stop you just for a second. What we are trying to look for is give us a picture
of this area you are talking about. Who did what? What was the process, these get
cleaned why do they get cleaned? Were they being taken out of crates? Do you see what
I'm saying we need a full picture of what that area looked like and who did what?
CB:
Well at Taungoo the amour shop well, I guess you could compare it to a garage. It was
just a plain old building had a bunch of racks in it where the weapons were stored in the
racks Initially there we used to clean the guns to get them ready to put in because the
guns were raw grease with [?] And of course when they were fired you had to clean them
1
�every time they come back to the [?] They had to be cleaned. And, of course, we actually
used carbon tetrachloride, which has been outlawed for years. It was all we had. We had
our problems with keeping them clean. But that's really all the armor shop was used for.
Just a place of storage. No munitions were stored in there. The munitions were stored in
another place. But all the spare parts the parts that aren't electrical the parts that we had to
use was all put in there. If you needed a part that's where you went to get it.
FB:
What we would like now is in as much detail as possible give us from an insider's view to
the outsider what it was like in this armament area. Who did what and what kinds of
things were done to prepare these P-40's including the cleaning the constant state of
cleaning were the spare parts were, the whole picture.
CB:
Well, to start talking about what we did in the armor section we had 5 armors in my
squadron. Joe Poshefko, P. J. Perry, Clarence Riffer, and myself. We worked together
and we worked by ourselves. And also we had some Chinese assigned to us. Now these
Chinese were armors, whether or not, they probably hadn't seen a P-40 before, but they
did, they were smart, they were Chinese officers they weren't no recruits. They picked up
real fast. They are very fast to learn. And they worked with us mainly in installation.
Once we got started we didn't see too much of them. They kept them mainly back in the
repair section. Woo and Chew, Captain Woo was a ranking Chinese. Well, he and two
others had gone to to Taungoo one night and I think they were smashed and came back
and one of our fellows cut off his tie. Just cut the thing off and he lost so much face. You
just didn't do that to a Chinese captain. He actually later on he didn't mind it, but at the
time he did it in front of one of his lieutenants and you just don't do that. When we have a
gun remission when they came back of course we'd have to pull, now you didn't have to
pull the weapons, the 30 caliber you had to pull out of the aircraft to clean. The 50
calibers you could remove insides from within the aircraft. And that's all we cleaned. But
see the ammunition that the service used, the primers are very corrosive, they, and with
the salts why they'll start corroding your barrel and they'll start rusting. And particularly
with the humidity we had there in two weeks the guns probably wouldn't even work. So
we kept them clean. I'm losing track here.
FB:
How did you communicate with Woo & Chew? You were telling us earlier about
FB:
I communicated with the Chinese by pointing. Make sure that Woo & Chew
CB:
The two Chinese officers that worked for me, Capt. Woo and Lt. Chew, Well, I got to
backtrack a little bit, Capt. Woo could speak English. And if we had a problem with what
we wanted to do he would tell the Chinese. But after we got working a while we got to
know pretty much in armor how to say, what to say, and what to do. Of course, I worked
with these people until after the war broke out and then we didn't see more of them until
we went back to Kunming. We move and they didn't come down go with us after that.
FB:
How did you communicate with them in the early stages for example?
CB:
Mainly by pointing.
2
�CB:
We mainly communicated with the Chinese by pointing and then later on by pointing to
something and saying what it was in English and they would say what it was in Chinese.
We had no problems. It wasn't that difficult to do. I didn't have any problems anyway.
FB:
In terms of the Burmese and the Chinese and then the Americans what was the working
relationship there. What the Burmese do, what did the Chinese do, what did you do?
CB:
When we was working with the mixed groups, the Burmese that we had working, the
Chinese that we had working in the armor shop I had nothing to do with. They were
under Roy Hoffman would be in there or we had an English Sgt would come in, a little
flight Sgt. would come in there and he would sort of keep things moving. The only ones
we had much to do with was just these two officers that I was talking about. Other than
that why I didn't have much to do with them. Now were around, they had them out there
refueling and stuff like, but I didn't have anything to do with them.
FB:
Do you recall any training scenes now or anything used to communicate with
CB:
No, the worst come up I would probably remember name. Woo and Chew are the only
ones I remember now.
FB:
No training terms for armaments
CB:
Oh, well I learned the word for machine gun which is chickwhenchaw. And bullet was a
tun. [?] And I think if it was like - if you come quick load the aircraft. Something like that
I got all fouled up but it was something like that. And hobble how was how are you? And
if he would talk good it was ding how. If you didn't feel good it was boo how. The water
was kisway. That's about all I remember. I had a few more but I have no use to use it.
FB:
What did you observe about the British in this? Was there any interaction with them?
CB:
We didn't really have too much to do with the British. Now, actually at Taungoo. Let go
back track there. We didn't have much to do with them on the field. I went once and got a
load of ammunition I had to have British Sgt. or corporal go with me .We got along all
right. Went up to Maymo and spent the night in Mandalay and came back and that was it.
That was about all I really had to do with the British. Later on we got really involved
with them when we went down to Mingladon. But it wasn't actually the British it was
New Zealand troops there were British soldiers, but the pilots were New Zealanders.
FB:
Ok we'll wait til we get to the Mingladon to do that.
What was necessary to get the P-40's battle ready?
CB:
Well, the method we boresighted, making of the gunsights were things we had to do to
get them ready to go, but everything all fell into place and that? main provision of course
they I know the mechanics had to build stand for lifting engines and they took a truck
3
�they took an old stake body truck and they made winch for it so they could lift the
engines off the aircraft, but other than that that's all we had to do the armors.
FB:
What there's a mention in something I've read about you you said loading equipment
does that mean anything? Loading equipment.
Something about you had gotten some guns or something like that and you wished you
had loading equipment.
CB:
The machine guns when you get the ammunition come in belts what they call
disintegrating link belts. The loading equipment is actually a belt linker is what it is. The
belt linker, now you're going to put 300 rounds, or 400 rounds of ammunition and you
got loose ammunition. You got a problem because you got to lay each round out in the
tray you got to put the belt then you got to pull the lever forward and it's a problem. I
forgotten now what would come in a box of ammunition, in a wooden box it comes from
munitions place. It think it was 250 rounds for the 50 caliber and I don't remember, but
we would have to link them and we had a linking machine which we used, but it's all
hand operated no power equipment. And that's what they call and probably what they're
referring to when they say loading equipment we call a linking machine.
FB:
Ok. What was your relationship with the pilots at this time? We're talking about the
training period in Taungoo.
CB:
Ohhhh, my relationship with the pilots was I had a lot of respect for. See when I was
stationed at Mitchell Field I was winch operator in a B10. I flew with Parker DuPouy and
Bob Brouk, and Pete Atkinson were all pilots I flew with. I was a winch operator we had
this old B10 and we'd fly around Fire Island, New York and Langley Field Virginia. We
used to fly our tow target for Ft. Monroe and I got to know all these fellows then and
most of them was in my squadron I knew. There were some of them I didn't care for, but
that was my own personal reaction to some of them. Some of them were a little standoff,
but all pilots I knew I had the utmost respect for.
FB:
In terms of relationship what did you discuss with them did they come out check on the
machines.
CB:
When we was boresighting the pilots would usually come out to their aircraft. They
were assigned to. And they would come out there and check and we would try to
encourage this because they could see what we was doing. If they come up went up I
don't think they were in tow target--air-to-air, but they did have some ground gunnery. I
really don't even know where they went because they didn't do it at our place, didn't do it
around Taungoo. Most of them got their experience after the war started. In air-to-air
firing.
FB:
What did you hear about or what was your reaction to hearing that somebody got killed in
the training.
4
�CB:
Well, during our training period previous to this time I'd seen a lot of pilots buy the farm,
I mean it was nothing uncommon in fighter pilots in those days for somebody getting
killed. When Pete came in on a test stop I heard him go in. Of course I didn't know who it
was at the time. And it's a shock, but it's part of the business. You don't want to see
nobody get killed, but you just take it that's the way it is. That fellow that was his job and
he didn't make it. Some of the fellows, I didn't know some of the fellows, the midair
collision Armstrong and Hammer I didn't even know those fellows. And at the time there
was quite a few of the pilots I didn't know because they were Navy and so on and so
forth. I just didn't get to know them. And there were the other two squadrons.
FB:
Give us an idea of you know here you are your working on something and then you hear
that did you know what it was?
CB:
When Pete Atkinson crashed although I didn't know who it was in the aircraft at the time
we heard the plane when he was coming in and we heard it wind up. And we knew he
was over speeding. You could just tell by the way that engine picked up that there was
something wrong. Then we heard the crash and the explosion. I don't remember where I
was at the time or whether I was working. I might not have been working, but we knew
that he never got out of it. Whether his prop over sped, or the engine just disintegrated I
don't have any idea I just know that Pete was killed and Pete was one heck of a fine
troop, a real easy goin' guy. I probably flown with him then I did anybody else in B10.
For some reason he used to get stuck, the fighter pilots didn't care to fly that airplane. It
took off at 90, cruised at 130 and landed at about 60. They weren't impressed about
having to fly it, but that was the way it was.
5
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Flying Tigers Interviews and Films
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
United States--History, Military
China--History, Military
Veterans
China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Description
An account of the resource
Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War.
Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG.
Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Boring, Frank
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a>
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1938/1991
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Fei Hu Films
Christopher, Frank
Gasdick, Joseph
Misenheimer, Charles V.
P.Y. Shu
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Format
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video/mp4; application/pdf
Language
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English; Chinese
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
video; text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-88
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1938-1945
World War II
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Moving Image
A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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RHC-88_Baisden_Chuck_1991-06-08_v04
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Baisden, Charles
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1991-06-08
Title
A name given to the resource
Chuck Baisden interview (video and transcript, 4 of 11), 1991
Description
An account of the resource
Interview of Chuck Baisden by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Chuck Baisden was an armorer of the AVG 3rd Squadron, "Hell's Angels." He joined the American Volunteer Group (AVG) in 1941 after signing a covert contract with Continental Aircraft Mfg. Co. He was with the first forces to reach Burma and was stationed at Mingaladon and Magwe, Burma and Loiwing, Mengshi, and Kunming, China. He left the AVG at the expiration of his contract in 1942 and enlisted as a T/Sgt. in the US Army. In this tape, Chuck Baisden discusses his observation of the working relationship of the AVG during their training period and the armament area where the P-40 airplanes were prepared.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Boring, Frank (interviewer)
Christopher, Frank (director)
Fei Hu Films
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
United States--History, Military
China--History, Military
Veterans
China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives.
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Format
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Language
A language of the resource
eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1d2d3d64e3869a57f07af7ababf83233.mp4
2f6621873467c21d48cb3528459abf2f
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/adb62387d243d7627c58395bf59b0d3c.pdf
039628f59728b188338127340156280d
PDF Text
Text
RHC-88 Fei Hu Films
Flying Tigers Interview
Interviewer: Frank Boring
Interviewee: Chuck Baisden
Date of interview: June 8, 1991
Transcriber: Frank Boring
[BREAK – TAPE 5]
FB:
And how did you hear about the bombing of Pearl Harbor?
CB:
I got to think about this Pearl Harbor for a little bit.
CB:
When we heard about Pearl Harbor. We heard the Japs had bombed Pearl Harbor. There
was some damage done but we didn't think there was all that much damage done.
Immediately we started pulling our airplanes out of the, Pearl Harbor was bombed. So
Pearl Harbor was bombed. We didn't understand how it could have been bombed, but
anyway it was. And we started pulling airplanes out of the boondocks. We had them
scattered all over Taungoo we had them scattered all over. So we started pulling them out
and lined them up, which could have been a disaster, but anyway we lined because we
didn't know what was loaded and what wasn't loaded. And we loaded them up and got
them ready and right after that we got orders for the 3rd to go to Mingladon. We hauled, I
think we went down there on December, I think it was around December 11th. I think
those orders were cut December 11th. And we went down by train. And how all the
Burmese knew we were there, they were at the station and they were giving us rice cakes.
I tried beetlenut, I don't know if you've heard of beetlenut or not. Well, the Burmese are
great for chewing it and it's a nut and they wrap it in a leaf and they put some kind of
lime in it and anyway they handed to me and I tried one and one's enough. The people
were there at the station. Every station we went thru on the way to Rangoon they were
there. Now how, the station master, I don't know what, but the crowds were there and
they were all cheering us and everything else. And anyway that's how we got down to
Mingladon.
FB:
What the, if you will, what changed amongst the group when Pearl Harbor happened.
Was there any attitude change?
CB:
No, the biggest change we had we were sweating out Jap paratroopers. That was the
biggest thing. We thought we'd be they' come in with paratrooper. Rumor or whatever,
but that was our big concern. And reason there was no change in attitude is we just all
went down Mingladon and that was our new base. And there was nothing until we
actually until they start bombing us there was no big change. And then there was a BIG
change.
FB:
I may have gotten my information wrong, but I thought you went to Kunming first with
the group that was of crew chiefs and all that. and then later went to Mingladon.
1
�CB:
No, I have an original copy of our general orders that took us the 3rd Squadron from
Rangoon, I believe the 1st or 2nd had already gone to Mingladon or gone to Kunming. I
don't know exactly the date they left. I don't remember, they may have already gone up
there or they may have left right after we did, but we evacuated Taungoo. The 3rd went
down to Mingladon and we teamed up with the British who were flying Brewster
Buffalos. Well, I say British, but they were New Zealand pilots. A real fine bunch of
troops. Most of them were flying sergeants. They didn't last very long. The Brewster
Buffalos was the U. S. Navy got rid of thing because it was outclassed and these guys
were trying to fly that thing and they didn't make it. First they were trying to fly British
tactics which you couldn't do against the Japanese zero anyway or even their [?] 97
fighter. They'd be on you in a minute. We got down there set up shop, we had tent, and
we had barracks right next to the runway, you had a barracks. And nice [?] trenches and
everything else. They hit us, well we heard that there was a bombing attack in Kunming
and that they got first blood at Kunming. And then December 20 or the 21st we had, our
fellows ran out and jumped in the airplanes and away they went. And one of the fellows,
we were all standing outside the barracks, planes had gone and one of the fellows looked
up and there's this air formation flying real high you could just see them way up in the
sky and one of the fellows was counting, 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 21, 24, they're not ours we
haven't got that many. And we all dove down in the slit trenches and about that time the
bombs started coming down and you could hear, and that's when I got personally
acquainted with the war. And it wasn't all it was supposed to be. I was scared, my god, I
was scared. I thought every one of those things would land directly at old Watashi?
Anyway, they [?] us now this is when Ole Olson got his film. He had gone down to
Bombay or Calcutta and had bought a movie camera 8mm movie camera. And that rascal
stood on the runway, the side of the runway filming that bomb attack. He bent over to
pick up another magazine and a fragment cut the handle off his camera. That's how close
it was. If he'd been standing up he'd probably nicked. And they dropped em, I guess the
closest one we had was from here out to the street to where the mail box is. They made
the attack and I watched P. J. Green come down the chute he was being strafed and pretty
soon the fellows start coming back.
FB:
All right we're going to spend some more time on that. How was the transfer to
Mingladon? Crew chiefs went first and the pilots came after what was the actual?
CB:
Some of the crew chiefs drove including one of the armors, Keith Christiansen, drove
trucks down there. My outfit went down by train. The fellows I was with went down by
train. The pilots flew in the next day. Flew their planes down the next day. That's now
they came in there.
FB:
What was the first thing you had to do once you got there?
CB:
First thing we did when we got into Mingladon, first thing we did was look for a place to
stay. We got assigned to our barracks and they we just had to wait for the planes to come
in.
FB:
What were the differences in terms of the conditions, living quarters?
2
�CB:
Well, we had there we had barracks. About the same as what we had up in Taungoo.
Indian cooks. We was actually living in a British barracks what we was living in.
Although it's hard to [?] because when you're over there there's a certain smell to the
place. You get into one of these barracks and it's got, and you smell the curry and the
latrine smell. It's just not a very pleasant smell. You get used to but at the same time it's
not home. I just remember, well, here we are and Johnny [?] he was sleeping right next to
me. I don't remember, we were all in the same barracks the pilots was in a different place
in another area. I don't even remember where they were. I don't remember where they
were, but they weren't with us.
FB:
Now once the airplanes started coming in what where your immediate duties? What were
you supposed to be doing?
CB:
Well, we just had to check them to see that they were ready to go. You see they were
completely armed and loaded and ready to go when left Taungoo. But we went out and
rechecked them. Usually when you do that you just charge another round thru the.
There's gun charges in the aircraft that pilot can do from the cockpit. We just jack a
bunch of rounds thru because we kept our guns hot. What I mean by hot is that they were
loaded, ready to fire. All they had to do was turn on their armor switches and they would
go. We didn't have, cause what we had found that when a pilot got the altitude and they
had to charge those 2 50's and those 4 wings--they really knocked them down so we pull
the charging handles back on the 30's and lock them up and all they had to do was give
them a flip and they would charge in. And the 50's they would charge 50's by hand.
FB:
Could you give us an explanation of what it means to charge a gun?
CB:
To charge a gun means to load it. We call it charging a gun and normally on a machine
gun you'll do it three times. The first time will feed the round in, next time will put a
round on top of a round is a cartridge, next one will put it into the machine gun and then
we would charge it the third time which would drop that round and put another one in. In
other words, it's a complete cycle. And that's what we would usually do.
FB:
Once you heard about the battle in Kunming, what was the reaction of the group, what
was your personal reaction?
CB:
When we heard about Kunming, well we thought maybe they'll stop bombing Kunming. I
really don't recall too much about the Kunming. We heard that the Japanese had come
over there and tried to bomb it and they'd knocked down a couple of planes or whatever
the story was and - great, maybe they'll stop bombing then. But we were more concerned
with where we were, what was gonna happen where we were because we knew it was
just a matter of time that they were gonna be coming over our area because they were
down in Indo-China at the time and down around the Moulmein area and there was no
reason why they weren't gonna hit us.
3
�FB:
If you could, describe the first battle that you encountered from your perspective on the
ground - starting from your perspective, give us a picture of what happened.
CB:
Well when they hit us - when the Japanese bombed us in Mingladon, our planes had
taken off and we got down in the foxholes and we heard the bombs coming down and
you could hear them - and they walked them right across from one end of the field - you
could hear them starting at one end and working their way right towards us and they kept
getting louder and louder and louder. Then if a big one went off and it didn't have your
name on it - and then they got this many - just the whole stick - which I'm saying, the
series of bombs dropped they called it dropping them in a stick of bombs - because
they're dropped in train, one behind the other. And they actually missed the runway, they
hit all the taxi areas and they hit next to a hangar, they hit in a hangar, they killed some
British soldiers but none of our planes was hit. We didn't lose a plane, even the ones that
hadn't taken off. So when our planes came back we rearmed and got ready for the next
one. We didn't get hit then till Christmas day.
FB:
It was during this battle that you got a chance to witness what was going on including P.J.
Green getting shot down. Will you give us a detailed view?
CB:
Well you couldn't see very much with the altitude they were at. You could hear those
noisy aircraft, you could hear the machine guns and then - I never saw his plane come
down - we're talking about P.J. Green - he had bailed out and we saw the chute coming
down and then we saw a Japanese fighter coming down in back of him and he made a
pass and by the time he went past him, then you could hear the machine guns - I mean the
delay in the sound and we were really ticked - you know that they would do such a thing.
So we didn't know - he disappeared out of sight and we thought sure he was hit. And then
when they came back in we started [?] people we lost like we'd lost Neal Martin, he made
a pass at a Japanese bomber and they shot him down - I forget who else - I know we lost
Neal Martin. Actually the first raid was sort of a melee that we didn't do all that great - it
was Christmas. After that the next raid we had was when things really - we started really
knocking them down.
FB:
What was the reaction of the ground personnel and specifically you, when the planes
started to come back?
CB:
When the planes came back we just ran out there and started working on them. Tried
cleaning them up and getting them ready for another mission. There was no - well, they
didn't hit us and we figured we'd - I don't know whether you'd call it baptism of fire or
what it was - it was very unnerving but when the planes landed, we had a job to do and
we just went out and started working on them.
FB:
Give us an idea of the condition of the airplanes when they came back.
CB:
Well the planes were loaded with arms equipment - it was just the guns had been fired
and we just swabbed them out and loaded more ammunition in them and that was all we
did to them. The crew chiefs worked on - the conditions at Mingladon were not all that
4
�great - it was rather dusty and there was one funny thing that did happen though. When
they came over and raided, there was a little dip in the ground and when the British
troops would run, they all wore black low cut shoes and this was a muddy period, and
when the raid was over they all came back looking for their shoes and it was funny to see
all these fellows down there - of course they weren't waiting for shoes at the time. This
may have happened the first raid, it might have happened the second. I don't remember
the exact date. And P.J. Perry got hit at this time, he was hit in the leg with a fragment
and he's taken a lot of razzing about it, but he was hit. We did have right after that raid we did have a rather amusing thing happened. We had an alert and General Wavell came
in and Shep had gone out - both of us had tommy guns - no, Shep had the tommy gun and
I had the bag of round drums - had the ammunition and General Wavell came in and I
forget who it was called us over and introduced us to him - I think it may have been
Olson. And we had a fellow, an oilfield worker named Tex Blaylock was there. Well the
British had lost those ships, the Repulse and other ships in the Indian Ocean - had been
sunk and Old Blaylock told the General he said "General, if this thing keeps up you're
gonna be reviewing your whole fleet under water." Of course that didn't impress old
Wavell at all. In fact when they landed they told him to get out - we were under a
bombing attack - that he'd better take cover, which he did. That's really all I remember
about that little incident.
[BREAK]
CB:
When P.J. Green was being shot at and he disappeared - just disappeared about 2 or 3
miles away, of course we thought he was dead, but anyway he did show up later on and
he said he'd had one of his arms was caught in the shrouds and he was trying to get his
pistol out
[BREAK]
FB:
When you start from that, start at the top the fact that he came down in the parachute,
make sure they know it's a parachute and then that he was avoiding the airplanes shooting
at him, then he disappeared. In other words then finish the story - tell the whole story
from beginning to end without all the battle scenes in between.
CB:
When P.J. Green - we heard the firing and the machine gun fire and then we saw this
parachute coming down. Of course at the time we didn't know who it was and we saw
this Japanese fighter come in and make a pass at him, he might have made two passes,
but I know he made one pass and the chute kept coming on down and just sort of
disappeared 2 or 3 miles away - just disappeared and dropped out of sight. Later on we
found out, P.J. Green showed up and he was pretty well banged up from the bail out and
he said he had his arm caught. If I remember this right, he had his arm caught in the
shroud lines, but he said he was trying to get his pistol out, he said "I was gonna shoot at
that mother" but you'd have to ask P.J. whether he actually did or not. He was the only
one we seen - and of course then our planes started coming back in - landing and we got
busy taking care of them then.
5
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Flying Tigers Interviews and Films
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
United States--History, Military
China--History, Military
Veterans
China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Description
An account of the resource
Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War.
Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG.
Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Boring, Frank
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1938/1991
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Fei Hu Films
Christopher, Frank
Gasdick, Joseph
Misenheimer, Charles V.
P.Y. Shu
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video/mp4; application/pdf
Language
A language of the resource
English; Chinese
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
video; text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-88
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1938-1945
World War II
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Moving Image
A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-88_Baisden_Chuck_1991-06-08_v05
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Baisden, Charles
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1991-06-08
Title
A name given to the resource
Chuck Baisden interview (video and transcript, 5 of 11), 1991
Description
An account of the resource
Interview of Chuck Baisden by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Chuck Baisden was an armorer of the AVG 3rd Squadron, "Hell's Angels." He joined the American Volunteer Group (AVG) in 1941 after signing a covert contract with Continental Aircraft Mfg. Co. He was with the first forces to reach Burma and was stationed at Mingaladon and Magwe, Burma and Loiwing, Mengshi, and Kunming, China. He left the AVG at the expiration of his contract in 1942 and enlisted as a T/Sgt. in the US Army. In this tape, Chuck Baisden discusses his reaction to hearing the news of Pearl Harbor and the days that followed for the AVG, in addition to the reaction of the group concerning the bombing in Kunming.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Boring, Frank (interviewer)
Christopher, Frank (director)
Fei Hu Films
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
United States--History, Military
China--History, Military
Veterans
China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives.
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video/mp4
application/pdf
Language
A language of the resource
eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3ffa45b4abea83e6d006fc5ee62e3763.mp4
295a2fea8ae192af079140c859243f69
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/943ec47e6dcb182a70f5780a7f9f2bc4.pdf
3c83c66194d3ecb452df2a8201e4094e
PDF Text
Text
RHC-88 Fei Hu Films
Flying Tigers Interview
Interviewer: Frank Boring
Interviewee: Chuck Baisden
Date of interview: June 8, 1991
Transcriber: Frank Boring
[TAPE 6]
FB:
If you can give us an idea of the next few days up until the next battle?
CB:
After our first bombing attack in Mingladon we had sort of a lull - if I remember right I
think we had several alerts, but nothing transpired. We didn't do anything because once
you have your airplanes ready to go, there's not a great deal you can do. You just hang
around and wait for the next thing. Really what we did I don't really remember. I just
remember one thing, we were in the barracks and Johnny Fauth hung his pistol on a rack
and the pistol fell out of the holster and went off and it rather disturbed everybody - it
blew a hole in the roof, but it didn't do anything else. It's just sort of vague of what we
really did, I don't think we did much of anything. I never left the base.
FB:
Let's go right to the 25th now
CB:
The 25th was Christmas Day. I don't remember when we had the alert, but our planes
took off and they were taking off in two different directions towards each other. The New
Zealanders were taking off in their Buffalos going this way and our guys were taking off
going this way and they were missing each other - like this - it got really wild. They were
airborne and we - I think we had a jeep, it might have been a station wagon - we got off
the field and I remember we got on the end of the runway and here comes a Zero right at
us, was firing, came right over us, strafing the field - I looked up to see him. Well we all
jumped out of the thing and I jumped into a thorn bush and I had shorts on and I
remember one of those thorns stuck me in the leg, which came out about two years later I had a little bump and pulled it out and that damn thorn was about that big, came out of
my leg. But we got back to the base - they had really got us this time. Our mess hall,
which was right by the barracks had been blown up, all the Indian workers, they had
taken off and really made a mess of the place. Then our planes started coming back,
Parker DuPouy came in with part of his wing - when a fighter or Zero had made a pass at
him and he'd taken the fighter off with the wing - and about flew his plane back.
FB:
This whole point you're talking about now is very graphic, it's very good.
[BREAK]
CB:
Parker DuPouy came back and landed. He was minus about 2 feet or 3 feet of his right
wing tip. Him and a Japanese fighter had made a head on approach and he took the
fighter right off with the wing loop. The Japanese went in and he flew it back and he still
had aeleron control so he landed and it was rather weird, but he did bring it back. Duke
1
�Hedman landed, he'd shot five down on that mission. He was the first one I ever knew
that shot five down in one flight and I said "What did you do?" he said "Well I pushed
everything forward and dove" and he came back. R.T. Smith landed and he had bullet
holes in his airplane and I gave him a cigarette, he's standing there in the wing smoking a
cigarette and I said "darn near got you, didn't they?" and he said "I never had a fighter on
my ass in my life. That was a bomber gunner." He said "No Japanese fighter's ever gonna
get on my tail." About the truth too. Anyway, the other fellows started coming in and we
started making a tally and they had just creamed those Japanese bomber formations. They
were using Chennault tactics, got a hit, get above 'em, dive, hit 'em and dive away and
crawl back up and do it again because they could not fight those fighters in a dog fight,
there was no way they could do it. The Japanese would jump 'em and turn and be on their
tail and just - they were just too maneuverable. But if they hit 'em, the Zero went down.
They couldn't take the fire power. After that, I don't know whether we began to think we
were [?] or not, but right after that I think right at the end of that - a couple of days later,
our outfit was relieved and we went by train to Kunming - I mean to Taungoo and we
flew out of Taungoo by Chinese National Air Corporation back into Kunming. But we
did go by train - if I remember rightly we went by train from Taungoo.
FB:
I think that's where I got confused. A great big holiday for Americans - what was the
Christmas - was there any kind of celebration?
CB:
We didn't have none. One of the fellows, Pawley - or one of the fellows from CAMCO
came out in a little car and he had some sandwiches and tea and maybe beer - yeah he
had beer, I know 'cause I had one. But my Christmas dinner was a piece of cold liver and
a whole quart of Australian beer - Australian ale. If you've ever drank Australian ale on a
hot day, it does leave an effect on you. But that was my Christmas dinner. We never even
thought about Christmas really - Christmas just wasn't there - there was no feeling, my
feeling was there was no Christmas at all. And of course in that country there - that
country is not Christian, they don't have Christmas trees up and all that - I just remember
leaving. Also that we had open season on Burmese priests. Now we didn't shoot them,
but we shot their umbrellas. We knew they were 5th Columnists, there was no doubt
about that because they're the same religion as the Japanese and they were giving
information to the Japs - no doubt in my mind they were - I couldn't prove it. But anyway
when was going up - wherever we was going, some of the fellows were shooting at their
umbrellas, they weren't trying to hit them, but they were scaring them a little bit. I think
some of the fellows could - Ole Olson could tell that story better than anybody I guess - I
think he was one of the culprits.
FB:
What was the move like to go into Kunming? Who went first, what was the whole
process of moving there?
CB:
Other than us flying in and landing - and we were pretty much a shaky bunch of
individuals when we landed - I've seen pictures of them getting off the airplane and we
looked like we'd been some place that we didn't like. I mean it was I think a bunch of
young kids that sort of got their eyes opened and when we landed we were assigned to
the dormitories. When our airplanes came in - I have no idea - I know we went to the
2
�dormitories and then we went out to the field which was 2 or 3 miles from where we were
living and planes flew in and I think some of the fellows stayed there.but then it was the
First and Second's - it was their day in the barrel.
FB:
What was your reaction to coming into Kunming? What was the big difference between
where you'd been and where you arrived?
CB:
Well when we got into Kunming it was cold. It was December. Kunming is about a mile
high, it's a pretty high elevation, it was cold and we'd been down in Rangoon where it
was fairly warm in comparison. It was cold and the food was good. When we got into the
hostel - which had been a Chinese University - and they put us up in these rooms - two
men to a room and we had a Chinese servant, he took care of the room, made our beds
and all that stuff and we could go in for breakfast and you could order a 12 egg omelet if
you wanted one. I mean what you wanted, if they had it, you could have it. The Chinese
were just leaning over backwards - anything they could do for us they were doing. I know
our room was heated with a little charcoal brazier and you had to keep water on it and I
remember one night we woke up and we'd had the windows down and I was with Keith
Christensen at the time, he was another armorer, and we barely got outside the door we'd been asphyxiated and didn't know it - that charcoal brazier going in there was
cutting all the oxygen out of the air. We'd get in our station wagons and we'd go out to
the base, which was a pretty good drive - you'd drive right through Kunming and we had
a place they called Thieves Market, where if you lost a hub cap you could go there and
find it the next day. They'd steal you blind - but it would go on sale in Thieves Market.
FB:
What was the drive through Kunming like? This was the first time you'd actually been in
China. Give us your first reactions as an American going through Kunming.
CB:
Well it was dirty, it had been bombed and bombed
[BREAK]
CB:
Kunming in Yunan Province was the terminus of the Burma Road. That's where really all
the supplies coming up was winding up at Kunming and then it would be dispersed from
there. It was dirty, the people were dressed in padded clothes and China was in rough
shape at the time. You could smell the Chinese cooking and you could smell the [?] soil
because they used human fertilizer and it made it pretty ripe. We would drive all the way
through town. What we had to watch was these Chinese what we called yo-yo sticks - it's
a little basket they carry on their shoulder - the idea was to try to hit him and spin him you'd hit the basket and spin him around a little bit and get him unnerved to get out of
your way. But if you stopped, you really had to watch or you'd lose your hub caps, they'd
be onto your car in a minute. They'd take anything that wasn't nailed down and resell it to
you - why not?
FB:
Give us an impression of - once again, this is an American - a young American, first time
in China, you're driving through in your jeep, was it deserted streets, were the buildings
intact, what was that like?
3
�CB:
Driving through Kunming, some of the buildings were down. Most of the buildings were
made of concrete or they were made out of Adobe - I'm not sure what material was used.
Exceptionally dirty and just teeming with people - there were just people all over and also
we couldn't gather that if somebody got hurt, nobody helped them. Of course we didn't
know and I've seen a Chinese try to jump on the back of a truck and he slipped and fell
and another truck ran over him - nobody helped him. Because in China if you help
somebody, then you're responsible for them from then on, so they don't help nobody
except their own family. That was something that took a little getting used to. We had a
restaurant there called the Nanping Restaurant where we could get fried rice and pigs. We
used to eat there and they had a movie theater we used to go to. But that's about all
Kunming had to offer unless you wanted to go to an opium den and we stayed out of
those things - at least I did. Exceptionally dirty. Of course when you'd get out to the field
we had Chinese guards all over the place and they would do anything to help you. They'd
salute when you came by and they'd salute and grin and we also had a lot of the Chinese
mechanics worked there - that's where we saw most of the Chinese mechanics was out
there at Kunming.
FB:
Give us an idea of the level of training of the Chinese mechanics. How did you rate them,
did you have to teach them anything?
CB:
Now I don't know about the engine mechanics, I do know the armorers were very good.
They knew - if they didn't know, you showed them once and you could - didn't worry
about them. And they were very conscientious. They'd work - mainly what they did was
clean guns. They didn't work too much on the aircraft. We'd tow our aircraft into these [?]
that were camouflaged and was in a bunch of trees and they'd be there. We had little
boxes set up for them to work on the planes. I thought they were pretty competent - for
the armorers - I know nothing about the other fellows - I knew nothing about them. I
think they were fairly competent.
FB:
What was the working relationship with the Chinese armorers at this time? Was there a
certain routine you had when an airplane came in? What was the process?
CB:
It was sometimes yes and sometimes no. It just depended on what you were doing. Most
of the time on the flight line they weren't there. We went - when a plane was - we'd pull
everything off of it, they were there to do whatever we asked them to do and could do it
usually without supervising them. They were very good at cleaning cowlings. They really
wanted that airplane to shine. They'd get old rags and they'd wipe all the -
[BREAK]
FB:
We don't know who they is ……especially this pride you seem to be telling about. They
were very proud keeping it clean and all that and how important that was to the gun
CB:
In Kunming we had re[?] - well the aircraft would be towed in there - it was camouflaged
- camouflaged netting and it might be half a mile from the field. They taxied them as
4
�much as they could. Well we had Chinese troops there, Air Force troops, and we had
Chinese regular troops who did the guard duty and manned the anti-aircraft machine guns
and I found them most of the time - they knew what they were doing and they were very
polite and they seemed to take a great delight in trying to help us. That seemed to be their
biggest thing. Anything they could do to be of service they would do. Like the crew
chiefs would have the cowling off - 2 or 3 of them would jump right on that cowling and
get some rags and they'd wipe off everything and they wouldn't put it back on unless you
asked them to, but they'd have it ready to go. Armorers were the same way. They'd come
down and they'd want to clean the guns. They wouldn't try to do things that they didn't
know how to do or they wouldn't get in there and show you how to do something, but
they would help you anyway they could. I got along with them real well. I didn't have any
problems with the Chinese there, some of the fellows did, but I didn't.
FB:
It wasn't until later that you got into action again, because Kunming after the 20th was
not bombed
CB:
Mainly we were re-harmonizing and re-bore sighting all our fighters. We had a good
range there and we set up and we re-bore sighted and harmonized. Because we had a lot
of problems with the gunsights and with the gunsights, if they were off why we tried to
get them going. So we would set up - I have a picture someplace showing Chuck Older
68. We'd get set up and we'd do the thing - do the same procedure we had down at
Taungoo and except we would bore sight them and I guess we fired them in - I don't
remember. That's mainly what we did and a lot of time we sat around playing Acey
Deucy. If we'd go out and do pre-flight in the morning and sign off the forms and then we
wouldn't know what to do. Unlike the military, where they found work for you, if we
didn't have anything to do, we didn't have to do it. They didn't make work for us. That
was one of the big things that I liked about the outfit and any outfit I was in, if you're not
messing around, if haven't got anything to do - you do it when you have to do it and then
you're on your own. That was one of the big differences that they had and I liked it.
5
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Flying Tigers Interviews and Films
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
United States--History, Military
China--History, Military
Veterans
China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Description
An account of the resource
Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War.
Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG.
Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor.
Creator
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Boring, Frank
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a>
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1938/1991
Contributor
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Fei Hu Films
Christopher, Frank
Gasdick, Joseph
Misenheimer, Charles V.
P.Y. Shu
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Format
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video/mp4; application/pdf
Language
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English; Chinese
Type
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video; text
Identifier
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RHC-88
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1938-1945
World War II
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Moving Image
A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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RHC-88_Baisden_Chuck_1991-06-08_v06
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Baisden, Charles
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1991-06-08
Title
A name given to the resource
Chuck Baisden interview (video and transcript, 6 of 11), 1991
Description
An account of the resource
Interview of Chuck Baisden by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Chuck Baisden was an armorer of the AVG 3rd Squadron, "Hell's Angels." He joined the American Volunteer Group (AVG) in 1941 after signing a covert contract with Continental Aircraft Mfg. Co. He was with the first forces to reach Burma and was stationed at Mingaladon and Magwe, Burma and Loiwing, Mengshi, and Kunming, China. He left the AVG at the expiration of his contract in 1942 and enlisted as a T/Sgt. in the US Army. In this tape, Chuck Baisden describes his reaction to being in Kunming and his first time in China, in addition to the working relationship with the Chinese armorers at the time.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Boring, Frank (interviewer)
Christopher, Frank (director)
Fei Hu Films
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
United States--History, Military
China--History, Military
Veterans
China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives.
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Format
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Language
A language of the resource
eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/0b08be209101e8b24beedb83168f91d6.mp4
316f1c613b730101821d3e4cef8d2853
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/0e29f1a44a53f5b342ca436bddfddb70.pdf
1bf63d13f254bf68557868d01e96a8c6
PDF Text
Text
RHC-88 Fei Hu Films
Flying Tigers Interview
Interviewer: Frank Boring
Interviewee: Chuck Baisden
Date of interview: June 8, 1991
Transcriber: Frank Boring
[TAPE 7]
FB:
Your observations of the way the soldiers were or any of this kind of stuff
CB:
When we were in Kunming we didn't - there wasn't a great deal to do. We did a little
traveling around in town, we'd walk around and we'd go to Thieves Market and look
around there and we'd go to the cemetery - when they'd have [?] everybody would usually
head out in that area anyway. I don't remember doing much of anything really. Did our
job and we'd sit around in the - what we did in our off time is really hazy because I don't
remember doing much of anything really.
FB:
Give us an idea of what the Chinese gravesites were like.
CB:
Well the gravesites were all raised above the ground. I don't know why, but this was the
way they would do it. There would be mounds and there were just thousands of them and
some of them would have little stones in them - like maybe - they probably would have a
coffin made out of stone and then they would put dirt over the mound and there were just
hundreds of them all outside of Kunming and I didn't know what they were for a long
time, but then people told me that's where they were buried and then we did find one that
was part opened and you could see the bones inside one of them that convinced me that's
what they were. But it was a very good place to go on alert because you didn't have to dig
a hole you could just get down between there mounds all over the place and we had a lot
of alerts - but nothing happened. We'd have an alert and they'd yell "Jingbow" and they
had black balls. At intersections they had a black ball and if one ball went up it meant the
Japanese had taken off. Then they would take another black ball and two of them was
imminent, three of them you'd better find yourself a place to hide because they were just
about - and they called it a jingbow. And when they had them, people just evacuated the
town, they were just scared to death of Japanese bombers.
FB:
Why don't you give us your observation of one of these jingbows happening, from the
first ball did everybody just run or was everybody still doing what they were doing? Then
the second ball what happened? Then the third ball and then give us an idea of this - did
you ever have to go to the gravesite yourself? All right let's go from the very beginning.
You're in town, the first jingbow goes up, what do you observe, what happens, then the
second and then the third?
CB:
Well if I remember this right, when we had the jingbow - now the Chinese had an
excellent warning net. They had observation - when the Japanese took off from a base,
they knew when they took off and then they started plotting them with their radio net and
1
�telephone lines and stuff like that and whether we had sirens I don't remember, but we
had what we called those black ball alerts and that was a ball about that big – [?] flagpole
would be at street intersections. I think they did have sirens too. But they'd hang one
which meant that there was Japanese in the area, not necessarily …people would start
moving - they'd been there awhile, they wanted to get out of the towns. When two went
up, people would really start evacuating. There were streams of people going just like
bees or flies just leaving the town, all different directions - just get out of the town and on
three of them you took shelter because that meant they're just about overhead. Well that
was my version of it, if I'm wrong - but that's the way I understood it. We had many of
them. I'd usually go find a Chinese anti-aircraft gun someplace and try to talk them into
let me use it and sometimes they would and sometimes they wouldn't. I never shot
anything there, they never came over. That was the whole gist of the jingbows.
FB:
Let's now look at your observations of the Chinese military at this time. What did you see
in terms of the Nationalists, in terms of the way the soldiers were treated or the soldiers
treated the people?
CB:
The Chinese soldiers, the soldier himself was sort of a peasant. Their system of drafting
was just going in a village and scarf up a bunch of them, that's what I could gather. Their
higher ranking officers were sort of political, particularly in the Air Force. They came
from the upper crust of the family and there was a share of - I won't say bribery - people
come from out of town they'd land at the station they'd have to pay off to bring their
goods into town. They'd be there taking their money and they had a big problem - now
you could always tell the difference between the National soldier and the Communist
soldier. The Nationalist soldier dressed in a padded blue uniform, he usually carried a
Russian made machine gun or Russian made rifle - the Communist soldier, mustard
colored uniforms, he had a lot of German equipment - he had Mauser rifles and they had
Mauser helmets and a lot of them carried the old broom handled Mauser pistol - it's a
pistol from World War I and they called it a broom handle because it's a real awkward
looking weapon. Some of them were completely armed with these pistols also with a
sword they carried over their back - the pistol and the sword.
FB:
You say you saw the Nationalists, I understand that - but how did you see the
Communists?
CB:
[?] It was a Communist Province. The Governor was a Communist.
FB:
This is what we need to hear. The Nationalists were there
CB:
In Kunming or Yunan Province, Yunan Province was a Communist Province according
to me. They were very reluctant to send their troops down. They would defend Yunan
Province but they were very reluctant to send any troops down south. The Nationalist
soldiers of course were there in their blue padded uniforms and the Communist soldiers
were there and they did have a lot of trouble. They had trouble with the Nationalists
seemed to be deserting over to the Communists - not the other way around. I remember
one time that we were working down at our munitions building in a place where we
2
�played around with bombs and stuff, and Chennault came down there and said - and we
heard the rifle and machine gun fire - we thought it might have been a range or something
- we didn't know what was going on - and he came down and he said "Now some
Nationalists have deserted to the Communist soldiers and there's a Nationalist company
going in there to get them back and if they come across the field, you're to fire on them."
Well that to me was not too good of an idea because they might fire back. Anyway I set
up my Bren gun and they never came across the field - I'm very happy they didn't. But I
did set up my Bren gun and spent the afternoon sitting there - nothing really happened.
Then the Nationalist soldiers they did get the deserters back. And that was the first
inkling to me that things were not all that great in China. They were having their own
internal problems which they definitely did.
[BREAK]
CB:
Our Squadron Commander, Avert Olson, called me in one day and he said "Chuck, we're
going down to a base in Burma. What is your opinion - I know we've got some Bren
guns" and I knew we had some Waterpool Brownings that came off the Panang, the old
gun boat that was sunk - well we got those two Waterpool machine guns we'd got from
them and he said "Well I want to take the Waterpool Browinings" and they knew a little
more than I did. He said "We want to take those Bren guns. We don't want no fixed
defense. Tell you what, let's take 6 Bren guns - or 3 Bren guns and if you want to bring
those Waterpool Brownings that's fine." I'm talking about a Waterpool Browning
machine gun, it's one that's got a jacket that you fill with water and keeps it from
overheating. So I was in charge of that and we got on out. We got on a CNAC plane, took
off and almost got clobbered. We came so close to busting our butts. Turned around, did
180 came back and landed and they fixed whatever was wrong with it and we took off
and we flew down to Magwe, that's right off the Yunanyi oilfield in Burma - west northwest I guess you'd call it. It's very desert country there. I guess you'd call it a lot like
Blythe, California that's about what it looked like and it was - everything was dry and so
that's where we went. We landed there and we stayed in the little village of Magwe We
stayed in individual homes, people had moved out and we just moved in. You could
actually walk to the base, but it was a pretty good hike to the base. That's where we
stayed and that's where the Third really got worked on.
FB:
What was the conditions when you arrived there? What were your duties, what kind of
supplies did you have to work with? Did the airplanes arrive at this time?
CB:
When we arrived in Magwe we got set up in our quarters, the planes came in and we got
them ready. We had tents, we used British tents. They have a good desert tent, it's a
double ply, there's one section that is an air space and another one. They're a pretty good
tent - and slit trenches around there. Well my first job was to set up the machine guns. In
slit trenches I set up both the Brownings - I didn't know that I was going to have to build
ammo for it though and these were old wet belts, they weren't disintegrating links and I
had a little belt maker - it looked like a sewing machine and you'd put your 30 caliber
ammo - I had to pull them all out of the links and put them in a strip and you sit there and
turn a little crank like this and it tik-tik-tik - the thing that goes through. I didn't have a
3
�very good weapon to tell the truth. Anyway I set those things up and passed the Bren
guns out. The Bren gun, incidentally, is a Czechoslovakian automatic rifle. It was a
British equivalent of our Browning automatic rifle used in World War II. It was a fine
weapon - a lot of people wouldn't say it was - but it was a really fine weapon. But it shot
303 ammunition which was - unless you were with some British troops it was hard to get
a hold of. Anyway we passed those things out. Meantime the British air warning - we
didn't have any. We thought we did, but they decided to bug out and we had no warning
at all and that's when a bunch of us went by weapons carrier or a jeep down to the
Yunanyong oilfields to the Yunanyong club, the well diggers and I remember I got so
loaded on Drambui booze - Drambui is a horrible whiskey anyway, but it was cheaper
than beer and I remember coming back and my head on the back of that - 20 miles I think
is what we drove and my head was just going like this. The next morning I was going
back to the base - going out to the field rather - and I didn't feel very good and I heard
this harrum, harrum, harrum and it was Jap bombers. I just heard the noise and I jumped
in a ditch and they came over and did their thing and of course we went on to the base
then - went right out to the flight line, got to the flight line and here comes another bunch
of them. By that time I'd got my jeep and my Bren gun and I got off the base and they did
their thing. They pretty well clobbered the base then. Got back in the car and drove back
in, by the time I got back somebody was hollering at me and pointed up and here comes
another bunch. Me and the other fellow we jumped back and we went right back where I
was and now the fighters were strafing them and I emptied a whole clip at one of them
that came by - I should have hit him but I didn't. I made a lot of noise. This fellow in the
room said "You shouldn't shoot at him, he's liable to shoot back" I said "That's what I'm
here for." Buck Rogers was his name - I knew I'd remember what it was. He died here a
few years ago - old Buck Rogers. Anyway we came back and they had really worked us
over. They had bombed and it was accurate and they had strafed and we had no warning.
The last thing I remember was that we went out to R.T. Smith's 77. R.T. Smith and I
went out to 77 and we pulled the armament off of it and the other ones we could get
armament that was any good, we pulled the armament off of it and loaded it on trucks and
then we left and we headed for Loiwing then via the Burma Road. The truck I was on had
a load of Lugit French wine out of Rangoon. The whole truck had nothing but wine and it
was horrible stuff. I remember he'd take one out of the case and bust the neck of it off,
take a slug and throw it overboard. I might even pay a fortune for it in the States but - we
went from there to Lashio and at Lashio we spent the night there and we tried to take the
mattresses from the guest house. We tried to load them and take them with us and I
always thought it was General Stillwell, but I could have been wrong, but some officer
came in there and he just chewed us up for trying to steal this stuff. So after he left we
stole it anyway and took it and went on up. On the way up there to Loiwing - No - we
went all the way to Loiwing and nothing happened - should have - but we made Loiwing
safely.
FB:
That bombing raid must have done one hell of a number on your hangover?
CB:
I was cured - I was cured. I think I suffered concussion from my head banging on the side
of that dang ??? than anything else. I don't really believe I drank that much, but it didn't
4
�take much for a 21 year old at the time. You could drink two drinks and be on your way. I
know I was awful sick.
FB:
Did you have any close calls during that raid?
CB:
No. No, no, I was clear of the field and when these strafers would come in they would
come in low and they were not looking for me at all. See that's where Johnny Fauth and
Will Seipel and Swartz got killed. But see I wasn't there where the bombs were hitting - I
was probably from here to the end of the street away from where all this was going on. I
was in a pretty safe area.
5
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Flying Tigers Interviews and Films
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
United States--History, Military
China--History, Military
Veterans
China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Description
An account of the resource
Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War.
Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG.
Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Boring, Frank
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1938/1991
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Fei Hu Films
Christopher, Frank
Gasdick, Joseph
Misenheimer, Charles V.
P.Y. Shu
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video/mp4; application/pdf
Language
A language of the resource
English; Chinese
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
video; text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-88
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1938-1945
World War II
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Moving Image
A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-88_Baisden_Chuck_1991-06-08_v07
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Baisden, Charles
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1991-06-08
Title
A name given to the resource
Chuck Baisden interview (video and transcript, 7 of 11), 1991
Description
An account of the resource
Interview of Chuck Baisden by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Chuck Baisden was an armorer of the AVG 3rd Squadron, "Hell's Angels." He joined the American Volunteer Group (AVG) in 1941 after signing a covert contract with Continental Aircraft Mfg. Co. He was with the first forces to reach Burma and was stationed at Mingaladon and Magwe, Burma and Loiwing, Mengshi, and Kunming, China. He left the AVG at the expiration of his contract in 1942 and enlisted as a T/Sgt. in the US Army. In this tape, Chuck Baisden describes the scene of the Chinese gravesites around Kunming and the experience of witnessing a jingbow, in addition to the working conditions in Magwe.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Boring, Frank (interviewer)
Christopher, Frank (director)
Fei Hu Films
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
United States--History, Military
China--History, Military
Veterans
China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives.
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video/mp4
application/pdf
Language
A language of the resource
eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c7a94655c4060b91ee4698da5b09131b.mp4
24e8390a771f42b62da8e5bc66e043e0
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/54a6246cb0763f30e29434b60181244e.pdf
36663a8bc23ca3dac44682546b34a014
PDF Text
Text
RHC-88 Fei Hu Films
Flying Tigers Interview
Interviewer: Frank Boring
Interviewee: Chuck Baisden
Date of interview: June 8, 1991
Transcriber: Frank Boring
[TAPE 8]
FB:
What was the difficulty, if any, of getting ammunition and actually parts for the guns and
all that kind of stuff?
CB:
If they had problems I never heard about it because what we wanted we got. We had
some bad ammunitions. We got some Remington export ammunition that was bad and
this was real bad news because that stuff's gotta be good for your synchronized guns. You
have a hangfire, it'd be in your prop and that's when we lost a lot of props. That was the
problem. On a cartridge case you've got a case and then you've got a place for the primer
and that's the part that ignites the propellant charge and we found some of them that
didn't have a primer hold - in other words - the hole was too small, so you had what they
call a hangfire - in other words - the weapon would go off and it would strike it but it
would might be like a flintlock - bang-boom - a sequence like that - and with those up
you're gonna shoot a prop and we stopped using them. We did have some - Remington
export ammunition was the only problem. In fact we stopped using those. We had armor
piercing which was a black covered bullet. The bullet was painted black, we had tracer
bullet, the tip was painted red and we had incendiary which was painted blue. And
incendiaries have a little magnesium charge into 'em. Actually what they'd do, they'd
burst and they'd burn, they wouldn't explode. Most of the load was one ball, two balls,
two tracers and one --- two balls, two armor piercing and one tracer that was usually what
the sequence was in firing. We had no incendiaries for the 30 calibers. That was all just
for the 50's. We didn't use very much of them.
FB:
From Magwe now, where did you go next, how did you go there?
CB:
Well we got orders to pull out from Magwe and I did not drive, so what road they took, I
have no idea. I rode on top of the truck, I rode guard on top of the truck and I just know
that we left Magwe and it was - from Magwe we went to Lashio and we spent the night in
Lashio and then from there we went into Loiwing.
FB:
What was the trip like?
CB:
It was uneventful. It was just driving up a road. We weren't strafed, there wasn't too many
- we didn't run into evacuees or anything like that. In fact I think anybody that could
leave had already left and it was a very uneventful trip. I don't recall any problems
whatsoever.
FB:
What about Lashio?
1
�CB:
Lashio was pretty busy and we got into Lashio and we got in the barracks there - it wasn't
exactly barracks, they were like little motels as best I can remember and I don't even
remember what we ate or where we ate, but we spent the night there and left the next day.
Now the group that you went with was this -
CB:
No convoy. We went by ourselves, we didn't have a convoy.
FB:
So this was just you as the armorers?
CB:
I don't remember who was driving when we went up there. Whether it was Rif Riffer or
Christensen - I think it might have been Keith Christensen - I don't remember who was
driving. That part of my life is sort of down the tubes because I just don't remember. I
just remember going - see when they declared Rangoon an open city, the fellows would
go down there on the dock and they'd give them a truck and they'd get a 55 gallon drum
of gas and anything you wanted you'd load it on a truck. So one guy loaded his truck up
with photographic equipment, another loaded his truck up with wine, another guy winded
up ??? store, just cleaned the place up, because the people had left and that's where a lot
of the black marketeering - a lot of the guys got booted out over this black marketeering
that started going on. They were selling aspirin tablets for $1.00 a piece up there and the
Chinese had a version if they could get - was it penicillin - I don't know if it was
penicillin or not - one shot of penicillin would cure venereal disease, all they needed was
one shot or one pill and that was it, so this stuff was selling. They were selling
ammunition for $1.00 a round, you'd get $500 for a submachine gun, $1000 for … prices
for everything and you could sell everything you had. That's when some of the guys got
caught up in this.
FB:
Who had that kind of money to buy a $500 machine gun?
CB:
The Chinese Communists and the Chinese dope smugglers, harem smugglers
(break)
FB:
Our impression is that China especially at that time or Rangoon, the people were very
poor, who was actually buying these things?
CB:
All of this mostly transpired in Kunming when they got to Kunming is where this stuff and they would be met on the road. See you have your Chinese - what you call bandits or
warlords or whatever you want to call them, they were raising - some of them were
selling raw opium and they were being hijacked. Well they wanted weapons to protect
themselves from being hijacked and they had the money. Where they got it from I don't
know, but they had the money and they were paying for it. Also the Chinese Communists
were buying weapons, anyplace they could get them they were buying them and this is
why the Nationalists were so hot on this black marketeering and why Chennault was so
hot on it. Those guys got involved into it and unfortunately we had quite a few guys got
involved in it and we had some of the fellows that got involved into it that turned out to
2
�be pretty high big shots. Now I sold the stuff I had, but I sold mine - I sold all the stuff I
had to a little Chinese guy that came to the barracks. About a pound and a half of pipe
tobacco and my clothes. My pistol I sold to Bob Prescott. I paid $20 bucks for it in the
States, he gave me $250 for it in China and I was scared to shoot the danged thing.
FB:
What was your observation of the black marketeering itself? To me there's a big
difference between your selling your clothes, it's not black marketeering, so give us an
idea?
CB:
Well the fellows who were bringing this stuff up in the trucks that they got out of Burma
and they were selling it to the Chinese, now this was just out and out black marketeering.
Now we had some Bickers machine guns, well the British years ago when they shipped
stuff, their rifles and machine guns, they took - the complete unit was not shipped in one
shipment - the bolts out of the rifles and the toggle bolts out of the machine guns were
shipped in another shipment. In other words - if they were stolen, they had to get both
shipments. But I know I had to watch the Bickers machine guns because they - who
wanted them I don't know - but I knew somebody wanted them and I've been asked
about, well if you don't look, why they'll disappear and I wouldn't buy any part of that.
Like I say, some of the fellows got involved in selling this stuff and they should have
known better. I'd say 50% of them never got caught. But those that did, got kicked out.
FB:
Now what was Chennault's reaction to this? I mean how did he find out and what actually
happened.
CB:
Chennault probably had people that were reporting to him because no way could he have
found out himself. He probably had Chinese who were reporting to him, he probably had
people in our own unit that was reporting to him. I don't know how he found out, he had,
but all of a sudden, he had never found out on of these guys got kicked out you never had
a reason. He just said goodbye and sent him a discharge and the guy was gone. We had
some good guys good crew chiefs that got caught with that. And then we had fellows that
got kicked out for other reasons.
FB:
Now we have verified that there was at least a couple who made not only just a few bucks
here and there, but almost made a living out of it. I won't say left the AVG they really got
into the whole black marketeering thing. Can you comment on that at all.
CB:
I know two fellows who were big in the, you see you had a money exchange. We could
get 3 rupees for an American dollar. That' before the Burma Road closed. Three rupees
for an American dollar or you could take your American dollar [?] rupees and take the
Chinese nationals money. A rupee was worth cause it was on the Burma Road, rupee was
worth more than an American dollar was. per se, because you could get 16 or 18
American dollars, or Chinese dollars for one American dollar. But you could take 3
rupees and do the same thing. In other words, you could almost double and this is what
these guys were doing. They were playing the black market and also we had pilots were
smuggling gold in. They were going thru [?] they were smuggling gold in, they were
smuggling gold back in the aircraft. Some gold in China. I never did know any of them
3
�that were messing around with dope or anything like that but I do know that some of
them were doing this. They could put it in the flare racks they put it in the baggage
compartment. Who knew the difference? They'd pick it up on Africa the gold coast.
FB:
What was your observation of that.
CB:
Well, most of my observation was what I heard people say. I never seen a bit of it myself.
I just know I heard talking they'd fly out and pick up an airplane and they'd bring the stuff
back loaded down with gold. We had two guys, ground crew guys, made a lot of money
on the black market and they were changing currency around. I say black market. It
wasn't like selling lend lease stuff, but they were making money one way or another. One
of them is dead and the other one is probably going to be at the reunion so I'm not going
to be able to names.
FB:
We know there is two people we have heard come up in on a number of occasions. There
is a man who is called Hasty.
CB:
Hasty was an armor.
FB:
Now was he the one that then there is also Booker Carney.
CB:
Booker Carney was bad news. I did know him, but he was bad news. I [?] he shot a guy
after the war. Hasty was an armor. Did he get booted out?
FB:
I think as far as we know he was the one that was married to a I don't know if he was
married or not, but to some woman who is named Rose. Carney had Rose and they were
very much
CB:
Well, this Hasty was a pilot or ground crew or armor?
FB:
I thought he was a pilot.
CB:
Well, he might have been he had a Hasty that was armor and I was surprised that he was
mixed up and I didn't know how he had the opportunity to be mixed up.
FB:
Ok, but you don't know anything personally about Carney or his
CB:
No, I don't know a thing about him he's about like Ba, ba black sheep. Boyington. I just
knew Boyington, you couldn't depend on him. That's the only thing I knew about him. He
wasn't in my squadron. I just hear what his exploits and I had no personal contact with
him.
FB:
We'll just give you some names of various people and if you could just give your
comments, if you know them at all, if you know any stories about them or anything else.
On Chennault staff there was a person who a lot of us a lot of the guys have said they
didn't what the hell he was doing over there. Harvey Greenlaw.
4
�CB:
He was useless.
FB:
Name the guy and then try to give
CB:
I first Harvey, Harvey Greenlaw down in Taungoo. We never knew exactly what he was
suppose to do, but he came out there in uniform all pumped up actually he was he seemed
like a I don't know. I never knew what he was suppose to do and nobody and he come out
there and say something and nobody pay any attention to him. Old Harvey was (laughter)
he shouldn't have even been there. I mean. I felt sorry for the guy. I didn't have no part of
him I thought he was useless, but I felt sorry for the guy. He was a lot older, he was old
enough to be my dad I think. Of course he was married to Olga [?] who is another story.
You probably heard her story. I think she was white Russian. From what I understand, of
course she was upper crust what do you want to call her? Live in or live out she didn't'
have nothing to do with us ground pounders.
FB:
What did you hear about Olga. We have heard a lot of stories about her. But I was just
wondering from your perspective. Yeah, the sofa any kind of scratching and stuff
CB:
I just seen her around, you know. Everything I heard was what other people were saying
because she didn't travel in my circle. I think probably a lot of it was true, but it was
strictly, you know if I was in court and had to swear to it, she'd get off because I didn't
know. I just do know that she had an awful lot of admirers and R. T. Smith is the one
that can tell you about Olga Greenlaw? He knew her. The pilots knew her. I didn't. Let's
put it that way.
FB:
What about Skip Adair?
CB:
Of course I knew Skip when he asked to come in the outfit. I didn't see much of him over
there. But he was around. I 'd seen him around, but whatever he did I don't know what he
did. Actually I had more to do with Chennault that I ever did with Skip Adair. Cause I
talked to Chennault several times. He was always real decent to me. I don't think I ever
did talk to Skip once we got over there.
FB:
You mentioned about your first impression the first time you met Chennault and this
feeling that you, that you were always saying yes, sir and that kind of attitude. What were
the later interactions you had with Chennault? Give us some of the examples of what you
were talking about with him.
CB:
I knew Chennault from when we got there and Taungoo he called me in to go up to get a
load of ammunition. Told me what he expected. And then I met him at Loiwing. He came
down there and Eric [?] buzzed us with a BT9 or BT6 whatever it was. Looked to us like
a zero and we had already been shot at morning and I remember him jumping out the
window with the rest of us.
FB:
All right hold on a second that sounds like an interesting story right there.
5
�Chennault jumping out of a window?
CB:
Well, we go back to Loiwing. We got jumped on morning. We was in the barracks and
they came over [?] were down running up the planes. Actually they caught us, running
up the planes or just getting down. They knocked a couple of planes out, but they didn't
do nearly the damage they thought they was gonna do. We went all back to flight line and
how did that go? I had picked up old Lewis machine gun, old drum magazine, World War
II design. I had been playing with the darn thing. We was a little bit jittery, well, they
came over that afternoon and our guys were up there waiting for them. And they just, I
don't think any of them got back, any of the Japanese got back. They just they were
sitting up about 20,000 feet, the Japanese came in at 15,000. They just came down and
knocked them down. We was all on the field and Eric had been out in a B in a trainer. I
don't know what he was doing but he was coming back. Well, he buzzed the field. I had
the Lewis gun and I set the thing up we had a little control tower it was bout 20 foot tall,
15 tall made out of wood. I set it up in the brace to start aim at him. And I said this is not
a good way to grow old. I felt it there and went thru the barracks and I jumped out thru
the back window and these were fac windows they just swung open and Chennault came
out the other window there was a whole bunch of us including Chennault. Chennault
came out he made a M1 turn and came back landed and Chennault chewed him out from
one end to the other. I told Eric a couple of times, you know I should have shot you
down. (Laughter). He said you probably would have. But that was the story on
Chennault. Chennault he went with the rest of us now not if, ands, or but about it.
FB:
That was excellent
6
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Flying Tigers Interviews and Films
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
United States--History, Military
China--History, Military
Veterans
China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Description
An account of the resource
Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War.
Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG.
Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Boring, Frank
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1938/1991
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Fei Hu Films
Christopher, Frank
Gasdick, Joseph
Misenheimer, Charles V.
P.Y. Shu
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video/mp4; application/pdf
Language
A language of the resource
English; Chinese
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
video; text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-88
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1938-1945
World War II
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Moving Image
A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-88_Baisden_Chuck_1991-06-08_v08
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Baisden, Charles
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1991-06-08
Title
A name given to the resource
Chuck Baisden interview (video and transcript, 8 of 11), 1991
Description
An account of the resource
Interview of Chuck Baisden by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Chuck Baisden was an armorer of the AVG 3rd Squadron, "Hell's Angels." He joined the American Volunteer Group (AVG) in 1941 after signing a covert contract with Continental Aircraft Mfg. Co. He was with the first forces to reach Burma and was stationed at Mingaladon and Magwe, Burma and Loiwing, Mengshi, and Kunming, China. He left the AVG at the expiration of his contract in 1942 and enlisted as a T/Sgt. in the US Army. In this tape, Chuck Baisden discusses the difficulties the AVG experienced in getting parts and ammunition, the trip to Loiwing and Lashio, and his impressions of fellow members including Skip Adair and General Chennault.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Boring, Frank (interviewer)
Christopher, Frank (director)
Fei Hu Films
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
United States--History, Military
China--History, Military
Veterans
China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives.
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video/mp4
application/pdf
Language
A language of the resource
eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/552bfee01d340bc3fed055708f303c83.mp4
2e8f73b09259d9b52467dc3e025bd4a1
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a4f00f67ced0b9b38ab1c351f29c944a.pdf
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RHC-88 Fei Hu Films
Flying Tigers Interview
Interviewer: Frank Boring
Interviewee: Chuck Baisden
Date of interview: June 8, 1991
Transcriber: Frank Boring
[TAPE 9]
FB:
Ok from Loiwing this was when you were traveling on the Burma Road. Left Loiwing,
Loiwing, trip up the Burma Road this is when you got your leg burned.
CB:
We had to leave Loiwing because it was a fair weather base. In other words the rainy
season was about to start and we had to pull out of Loiwing. I don't believe it was
because the Japs probably did get in there, but we had to pull out of there because it was a
fair weather base. Our warning net wasn't all that great. So anyway, we decided so he was
going to a place about a half day's drive maybe a half day's drive called Mengshi. We was
going to operate out of there. We went in there and found out we couldn't operate, planes
came in and landed. I remember Bob Brook came in and asked me to count his ammo and
I looked in his 30 caliber ammo cans and just the top belts had been moved out, maybe
20 30 rounds just move off. Well, he said I'll tell you what I was flying along and I found
myself flying in a formation of Japs. I was sitting back. He said I flew up in back of them
I checked my armor switch on and I came them a squirt and dove away. He said I got
him. He said I wondered how many rounds he fired? That's what he wanted to know, I
counted them and I don't remember what it was. Came time I found one of our 30 caliber
bullets lodged in an ammo can. One of our guys had evidently been shooting and poked a
hole in his plane because it was one of our own cartridges. It wasn't Japanese, one of our
own bullets. And I showed it to him and I said hey, you got shot didn't you and he said I
don't know who shooting at me I was shooting at them.
FB:
Well, what happened?
CB:
Well, anyway we spent the night there and then they came in the Chinese nationals
brought in gooney bird or a C47, or DC3 and I had my choice of flying back to Kunming.
I said no, I'd gone this far and I wanted to finish the trip up in the truck. Clarence Riffer
was driving at the time. I was just riding shotgun. And so we took off from there for
Kunming. And on the way up why we spent the night in the truck. We had a bunch of
machine gun parts in this truck. It wasn't the same truck I started off from Magwe in. We
had just a bunch of machine gun equipment, tripods, this and I don't know what all was in
there. So we tried to make a fire and during the course of making the fire why old
Clarence, or Rif Riffer the gasoline can caught on fire using he chucked on my leg and it
burnt my leg pretty good. From there we went to Paoshan. We spent the night at the
hostel at Paoshan and then we went deer hunting. Now the [?] of deer hunting was with
tommy guns interesting. We didn't see any deers, but we got up and yonder trying to find
them. And incidentally that area is a good hunting area.
1
�Around Kunming duck hunting, there is deer so they say I never did see one. I seen the
biggest tiger I'd ever seen in my life. We driving at night and the tiger jumped in the road
ahead of us in the lights and then bounded off. god, he looked like he was 15 foot long.
He was moving out of our way and we went another way and stopped..Chinese, they
don't like to be passed. They loose face if you pass them. We found to pass them, pass
them on the inside don't try to go round them they'll try to push you off the cliff. You
start passing them and they start edging the car off and you got a 1500 foot gorge there.
So we passed on this side and we found the best way just fire burst from your tommy gun
as you go by them just fire burst over their hood they give you plenty of room.
FB:
Lose face.
CB:
Well, the Chinese like a lot of the orientals there's a different face problem. They don't
like to lose face and driving on the road when you passed if you went on the outside of
the road they would try to push you off the road. Invariably on the Burma Road there was
one place that was a cliff on one side and there was a big drop on the other. So we would
try to pass on the right and they'd get ahead of you They just try to keep they didn't want
you to pass them. So what we'd do we start going around them they'd let you on the right
hand side cause they'd say well, I'll push this guy over, but as we'd go by I'd take my
tommy gun and I'd shot a short 10 round burst over the hood of their car. I had no
intention of shooting them, unless they shot back. They put the brakes on and boy they
stop in a cloud of dust and give you the right of way. Might makes right is that what
you'd call it? That's what we'd do. That's what I did anyway. I don't know what the rest of
the boys did.
FB:
You had mentioned once before about Keith Christensen.
CB:
Keith Christensen was armorer was a Navy man. I think he got over there around
November. He came over on one of the later boats. Keith was assigned to our squadron.
Of course he had a saying that Chennault had called him in and said were having trouble
with this 3rd squadron they don't know their job could you sort of straighten them out
being you're an old Navy man. Do you know anything about synchronization? He'd been
in the Navy since about 1936, 37. He'd been in the Navy a hitch. He and I got to be real
good friends we still have this synchronization thing going on even to this day He and I
we stayed together we roomed together in Kunming. Stayed together pretty much
together, we sort of buddied up. He's older than I am. Just a heck of a nice guy course he.
I can't say any more about him he's a real nice fella.
FB:
What was the synchronization thing though?
CB:
Well, that thing was said that we couldn't synchronize and he was going to show us how
course this thing happened here not too many years ago when they came up to visit here.
I put a sign out on the mail box Synchronization Class will be held at 1300 hours. He and
Joe Poshefko and their wives showed up and I said you ready for synchronization. Well,
at least I know how to spell it. I had misspelled synchronization. I said I spelled it like it
2
�sounds. He said it don't even sound like it is spelled. And that's the story on that. And he
hasn't let me forget it.
FB:
How once, during this whole period of time there was a certain amount of innovations
that you had to make to keep the airplanes going and what not. There is a story of how
you had somehow done a makeshift bomb.
CB:
Oh, yeah.
Ken Jernstedt and gosh I wish I could remember his name. He was killed over there.
They were going to plan a mission run down Moulmain. They had the planes ready to go
and I just fooled around with, we had some British incendiary bombs, long silver, about
that long, octagon shaped. They got a little pin the side of them and when the pin pops up
they are armed and when they hit the ground they burn. Well, I bound them up with
masking tape and you could put three of them in each flare rack and talked Ken you want
to take them with you? I think he was a little dubious, but anyway he put them in and
then we had some Canadian hand grenades and these were plastic. Only plastic hand
grenades percussion grenades is what they are rather than fragmentation they make a big
bang. You screw the cap on them and they had long piece of cloth and a lead weight on to
them and when you threw it this stuff would spin off and when it hit the ground it would
go off. We put them in flare rack tubes and put a big old cloth in the tail of it so
theortically when it dropped the cloth would slow the tube down and the things would
fall out. Well, we only used them once I was really scared of them. And I think they were
too. But the other ones Ken told me when he came back he said you know I aimed that
incendiary at the hanger but it bounced and went underneath a Betty Bomber and I got
the bomber. And I still talk to him and said you never shared your bonus with me on that.
He said no I never did and I ain't a goin' to.
FB:
You had made mention that there was an incident you recall regarding the Army Air
Corps group coming in and assigned to do some sort of a morale mission.
CB:
We had a basic trainer land at Loiwing. Army pilot and a sergeant observer. They landed
at Loiwing and came up and told us that they had been assigned to fly morale missions
over the Chinese lines to make their presence known. This was an order that came up
supposedly from General Stillwell. It was my understanding that Chennault told them to
take that airplane and get lost because if they went down there and did that they were
going to get shot down. Well, they took off and I don't know whether they flew their
missions or not. I don't know what happened to them I never seen them again. But that
was the story and this I remember when they landed that trainer. They wouldn't have a
chance if they went down there. Trainer flying 90-130 miles an hour, well, it would have
got shot down there's no doubt about it. There would be a Jap fighter there within 10
minutes.
FB:
There was a flare up amongst the pilots of the 3rd squadron during the latter part
regarding these morale missions that were being ordered by somebody.
Did you have any observation of that?
3
�CB:
None at all. I didn't know I knew there was some grousing going on, but I knew nothing
about it until after the war. I was reading some of the Sadell?, I didn't know a thing about
it.
FB:
What I'd like to get into now this is sort of an over all picture.
Where you part of any thing of those days when things were going 2 or 3 times they
would have to go back up?
CB:
I don't ever recall anything like that.
FB:
Ok
CB:
We may have done it. We would rearm them when they came back and check them.
Whether or not they took off again or not. But I don't remember. I just don't remember
doing that.
FB:
OK, all right.
CB:
See when the 1st and 2nd went down to Rangoon, they no doubt did that cause they got
real busy down there. Busier than we were. I think because after we left things got a little
rougher than we had it..
FB:
OK
FB:
I have a notation here April 42
CB:
April 42 was when we was at Loiwing. [?] Berry ?got married there. I don't remember
who he married. I didn't go to the wedding. They were married over at the pilot's quarters
and I think that they had an alert. We had gone over there and on the way back we were
stopped at a road block. I just remember we stopped at a road block and the Chinese one
of the Chinese guards he had one of those Chinese grenades and he had this finger
hooked on the ring and he'd hold it inside the car. And you don't drive away when some
one is holding a live grenade in it doesn't prove to make your life very long. They were
looking for a Japanese observer who had bailed out. Now whether we was coming back
from his wedding it might have been I just don't remember. I just remember [?] got
married. I don't remember who he married or if it was a local girl or American. I just
don't remember.
FB:
This incident with the Chinese stuck a live grenade in there was that a common thing.
Was that something that
CB:
Evidently it is one of their ways of stopping in a road block will keep you from going off
because if you took off all he would have to do is hold drop the grenade and hold his
finger in the ring and it would arm those grenades had a friction primer on them. You
unscrewed the cap and there was a little ring and you put your finger in the ring and when
you threw it the ring stayed on your hand and pulled the string and with the friction
4
�primer you ignited the fuse string. They used a regualr potato masher like the Germans
used.
FB:
Where there any other incidents that you can recall where you had not just a
confrontation but just that kind of an incident with the Chinese military?
CB:
No, one time I went down to Chinese anti-aircraft sentries have a 30 caliber machine gun
modeled on an aircraft mount. And he had the belt in backwards. Not the bullets in
backwards, but the belt. You had to put it in with the double link first if you put the
single link in it scratched the truneon?. I showed him what was wrong with it. Well, he
had to call his officer. His officer came over there the officer he didn't like it, but he did
what I suggested do. I said it is not going to work this other way. But there was no
problem he just didn't like me telling him how to run this machine gun. We did notice
they were not all that eager to fire. We checked out a bunch of pilots on P-40's. They
busted up some of our airplanes. Then we got that Republic Lancer P-43. We got a
bunch of those in. The Chinese were busting them up all over the place. The clobbered a
bunch of those things. Let's see what else did they do? They had those Russian fighters
and when we would have an alert they would taxi them to the boondocks. They wouldn't
take off with them. Of course they'd have got shot down it they had. They did go on a
couple of bombing mission with their Russian made bombers. I don't know what ever
happened on that. I think there was something called in the glory of it We just notice that
they were loading them and taking off with them.
FB:
Why do you think the Chinese were reluctant to fight?
CB:
I don't think the air force was equipped to fight. Now they say they had some real good
fighters later on in the 14th Air Force. I understood that when they went to pick up planes
in Africa where they ferried them on in some of these guys would take off and go looking
for trouble. They'd get over to Burma and they'd go looking for Japanese. So I think that
they were under orders not to use those bi-planes. And of course it looked like they were
bugging out, but I don't really believe that they were doing that. I think that they were just
getting them out of the way because they couldn't because they were outclassed.
FB:
You made mention that some of the Chinese got checked out in the P-40.
CB:
Well, this was just before the outfit busted up. They brought a bunch of pilots in. Now all
these pilots had a lot of flying time in other planes. They checked them out in the P-40. I
don't know how many checked out 10, 12 whatever it was checked them out. I think they
busted up 2 of our planes. I know they busted one up, but I think they busted two up.
Calm down a little bit. Then they checked a few more out, but then they started getting
these P-43, Republic Lancers that were coming in or they were flying those things. Those
things had a, for instance, go into a high speed stall on take off if you reaped one around
it would go right into its nose. I had talked to fellows who had taught Chinese pilots and
seemed that over there at the time that when they were learning to fly that once they
soloed that was it. They didn't need to know any more there were ready to do whatever
they were supposed to do. Of course a lot of them were from rich, influential people they
5
�may have not had the qualifications they should had, but they had the pull to get in.
Course that is just my own version of it.
6
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Flying Tigers Interviews and Films
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
United States--History, Military
China--History, Military
Veterans
China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Description
An account of the resource
Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War.
Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG.
Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor.
Creator
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Boring, Frank
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a>
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1938/1991
Contributor
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Fei Hu Films
Christopher, Frank
Gasdick, Joseph
Misenheimer, Charles V.
P.Y. Shu
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Format
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video/mp4; application/pdf
Language
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English; Chinese
Type
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video; text
Identifier
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RHC-88
Coverage
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1938-1945
World War II
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Moving Image
A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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RHC-88_Baisden_Chuck_1991-06-08_v09
Creator
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Baisden, Charles
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1991-06-08
Title
A name given to the resource
Chuck Baisden interview (video and transcript, 9 of 11), 1991
Description
An account of the resource
Interview of Chuck Baisden by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Chuck Baisden was an armorer of the AVG 3rd Squadron, "Hell's Angels." He joined the American Volunteer Group (AVG) in 1941 after signing a covert contract with Continental Aircraft Mfg. Co. He was with the first forces to reach Burma and was stationed at Mingaladon and Magwe, Burma and Loiwing, Mengshi, and Kunming, China. He left the AVG at the expiration of his contract in 1942 and enlisted as a T/Sgt. in the US Army. In this tape, Chuck Baisden describes his memories of traveling on the Burma Road and incidents with the Chinese military using grenades.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Boring, Frank (interviewer)
Christopher, Frank (director)
Fei Hu Films
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
United States--History, Military
China--History, Military
Veterans
China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives.
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video/mp4
application/pdf
Language
A language of the resource
eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3f8d135dff58fc1e634beb4bccd4fa92.mp4
483588b4f077c578197d3bd5e9412b4d
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7e86b6539490755ec2508f3f621f5777.pdf
a1bdbcd742bdfa8353965c12ed61a9f4
PDF Text
Text
RHC-88 Fei Hu Films
Flying Tigers Interview
Interviewer: Frank Boring
Interviewee: Chuck Baisden
Date of interview: June 8, 1991
Transcriber: Frank Boring
[BREAK – TAPE 10]
FB:
Let's begin with, the only time you saw Chennault get really upset.
CB:
The only time I remember about Chennault really being upset is that he lost his cool.
There was a period of time when the army B-25 landed at Kunming. And Gen. Chennault
came down, the regular operator was dead, the plane was full of holes, and we found out
the story was that those planes were supposed to take off from India, fly to Kunming and
then we'd take them from there. Well, the Army and all the glorious wisdom decided that
they would make little bombing raid on Lashio. They knew nothing about Lashio. Not
really. So they decided to bomb Lashio and they'd immediately run low on fuel and they
got jumped by Jap fighters. Who were, I think were already in Latio. The radio operator
was killed, they lost I think 3 planes, and they lost two of them. At least that's from my
best recollection. This was landed and Chennault heard the story and he took his hat off
and he threw it on the ground and kicked it. And I don't know what he said, cause he
walked away with his back to me but he was mad. And the only thing I heard was this
was unnecessary. Because he had places, they could have gone in to several other bases
for gas if he'd known it, they could have bet on the whether, there's a bunch of things they
could have done, but they didn't tell him. He didn't know about it. And this was really
unfortunate and I guess they probably have that problem all of the time.
FB:
Around this time towards the end, there was some rumors that were strung around about
the AVG is coming to an end, there's Army Air Corp coming in, I wonder if you could
comment on that period of time.
CB:
Well, these rumors started flying there probably May. And of course we thought we were
going to be abducted right into the service. But then we found out that beyond foreign
soil, you cannot enlist, they can't draft you, it has to be voluntary induction which I had
never heard of before and they set up some king of a board and interviewed everybody
and asked what it would take to stay in. Well, I had made my mind up that I was going to
go back to the States. Or I was going to ask for something I really didn't believe they'd
give me but I was going to try and if I'd got it, I'd stayed. Well when I got, our squad
commander was the one that interviewed us. And they said what do you say to stay? And
I said if you give me the permanent board to the Master Sergeant, and you'd give me
temporary First Lt., I'll stay. I never heard any more about it. That was something I didn't
get and I didn't think I'd get, but I was going to try for it. That was the closest I'd ever got
to getting the commission. Anyway, that was the whole story on that Of course, we'd had
the big talk by this General, this General came in there, Burton or Britain, he came in.
1
�FB:
Let's start again, the General came in by the name of Bissell.
CB:
There was a general that came in by the name of Bissell. And we weren't impressed, I
know he wasn't impressed, we weren't impressed with what we saw, I think he thought
that everybody was going to pop to and do whatever he wanted us to do and he laid it on
the line, he didn't tell us, there was no kindness into it, he said if you don't go into the
service, the Draft Board will meet you when you get off the boat or the plane, you'll get
no help for transportation, in other words everything was negative. Then it just turned
everybody off. He probably did more damage that anybody who were there, not if. And
another thing Chennault did not, to me, did not ask any of us to stay. If Chennault would
have said, Charlie, we need your help, I'd probably would have stayed, but he never did,
and I heard later that he refused to do that. He was not going to push people into staying.
I think he did call some of them like Tex Hill and some of them aside, and said I really
need you, he did call some of those people in. But the most of the crowd he didn't, He
didn't push us or say anything, so when the time come, we just left and we just walked
away and left. We had a lot of Army people come in there. They were trying to teach us
armors, aircraft armors, they had orders for people who knew nothing about aircraft
armament, and they had one fellow who was standing out the flight line, he was
scratching his back on the wing guns and as the guy in the cockpit turns on the switches
and hits the relay and that put a burst to the middle of his back, blew him 15 feet away
from the left. Of course, they didn't know if there was a padlock inside the aircraft, they
had relays. If he hit one of those relays, that would fire the gun, you didn't have to pull
the trigger, they'd fire the guns, and whoever was in there, they didn't know. And another
fellow came by he was some officer, I didn't know who he was, he didn't like the way we
had some stuff stacked there, he said this stuff should be stacked neat. and I guess we told
him to get lost. But whatever it was, we didn't do it. And then we got, and when we do go
in, these guys are really going to lay it in to us. I don't think they did because they needed
all the experience at the time because these fellows didn't know, they were in Kunming,
that was about it. Because it don't take long when you get under active combat conditions
you know what to do and you learn it or you got big problems.
FB:
I wonder if you could comment on a particular aspect of what you talked about, when
you went out to China, actually to Burma first and then China, one of the things that you
made very clear, was that you guys already knew what you were doing, you'd already had
the training and everything else, it was getting use to the conditions and everything but
basically you knew your job. From that perspective and now you've had almost a year of
experience what was your evaluation of the new people coming in?
CB:
My evaluation of the people coming in was that they were friendly, most of them,
particularly the fellows we associated with, they wanted to learn but they didn't know
anything. They were completely in the dark of what was going on. They were trying to
train people that didn't have any experience in the aircraft [?] No doubt they would learn,
they just didn't know, not no doubt they wouldn't learn, but no I think one of my biggest
problems were that stuff we had was getting worn out. And of course, most of the fellows
cam out alright. I didn't work with any of them hardly at all before I left because I left a
little bit early.
2
�FB:
Describe,
CB:
We did start to get aircraft invasion from the old H-81, P-40, we started to get the Emodels in and that was a lot better airplane it had 650 caliber machine guns underway
and they had drop tanks and it had the place to put bombs in the wings and it was a much
better aircraft. But we didn't have any, we were using Russian bombs, we were using
Chinese bombs, most of them had to be adaptive to the aircraft, they wouldn't fit, we had
some problems with ammunition and our gun sites on the old models were just about had
it, the things were just getting worn out and P-models why, they were going to do alright.
That was about it. Things were just, we'd had the stuff so long that actually the
replacements, and they had to bring them from a long way, they had to go all the way to
Accra, the Gold Coast to get them.
FB:
Let me ask you this, in a quote, unquote, normal army air Corp. operation, would this
equipment that you had, been kept in service that long or what would normal military
procedure be in that regard?
CB:
They'd had probably thrown it away and got new ones.
FB:
I want to hear that. In terms of the P-40s and the amount of wear and tear on them, and
then say they would have thrown them apart.
CB:
Well, let's put it in perspective. If you don't have the equipment, you've got to use what
you have. If you've got lost of equipment, you use the new equipment. And that's just the
way it was. Now I know later on when I was over there again, we went through three
bombers. None of them were any class 6. I mean they were totaled out, but when
something would break, we'd get a new one. I know in China, we couldn't do it, we didn't
have the stuff, we had to use what we had. And I don't think the Air Corp. was capable of
handling it, they couldn't handle it, they didn't have the people that could do this, they
didn't have the machine shops and all this sort of stuff, so my system, my idea of what it
was, if it was broke, they'd have to get a new one. I don't think they could have coped
with them. And what they did, they got new equipment, and I don't know what happened
to the old P-40's because I left and they were still there. I wouldn't mind having one
today, but....
FB:
Let's look at, there was an incident you had mentioned about, of a plane exploding on the
runway?
CB:
Oh, the Chinese plane? Well, the Chinese were flying a Russian-made biplane and it had
a, I don't know what kind of engine it had, but I know it had four synchronized RussianScotch machine guns and that's an army's nightmare right there, to have four of those
things. And the Chinese was fooling around with bombs and they had rigged a bomb rack
for this aircraft. They'd hung the bomb beneath it, a bomb has got what you call an army
vein on it. An army vein goes through an army wire which is hooked to the bomb
[chakle?]. And when the bomb is dropped armed, this pin or wire stays with the aircraft,
3
�let's the propeller spin, well the propeller has got to spin so many times in order to arm
the bomb. They didn't have one of these, so they had a mechanic hold the propeller over
the bomb, the army vein, until he started taxying. When he started taxying, naturally the
army vein spins off which arms the bomb, well now the bomb isn't going to off until
something it knows strikes something. Well, it evidentially hit a rock and Kunming hit a
lot of gravel and evidentially, he's taxying by and the plane just blows up - just
completely disintegrates, we didn't find nothing of the pilot. And the engine, when it took
off, it went, it must have gone into the air, 75 feet in the air, it was roaring, the engine all
by itself, the tail went that way and the wings went and later on they had one of the
Chinese pilots, he was going to give us a demonstration. He was going to give us a low
fly-over. He comes bopping over and his airplane made a rather peculiar sound when he
came over, but he came bopping over and all of a sudden the tail starts to go like this, and
evidentially, the pilot didn't have a safety belt on, because all of a sudden when it went
up, he just went sailing right out of the cockpit. He hit his leg on the horizontal stabilizer
and got his shoot off, but he wasn't that high but he did get his shoot open and he came
down with a broken leg. And we had heard that the Chinese had to shoot him because he
did this. I don't whatever did happen to him, but I think his career as a pilot went down
the drain. He didn't impress anybody. I know we all were standing there looking at him, it
was funny in a way, because it actually did look rather hilarious, this guy getting thrown
out of this airplane. And D. Poshefko was there with me, I think P.J. Prairie and there was
about four or five of us armorers standing watching this whole procedure.
FB:
If you could explain how that came about and what actually transpired.
CB:
Well, our contract called for a year's engagement but with a 30 day leave with good
counting, you got a 30-day leave. Now see they were organizing this outfit for the, it was
really called First American Volunteer Group, there was another unit that followed us,
and they were scarfed up when the war broke up and wound up in Australia. They were
supposed to have a couple of fighter units and a bomber unit and all that stuff. So when
the time came up, I had this 30-day leave and so we just got turned loose. early and we
got a, we did get an Army transfer out of Kunming. The pilot told us, he drives me down
there, he said I'll take you up because these guys were all for, it was William's trying to
keep us from going anyplace. so they weren't supposed to fly us anyplace, but he said you
be down there at the end of the runway, I'm leaving at such and such a time in the
morning, he says, so I'll, we flew in to Karachi. We got into Karachi and we went to the
American Council, and he said take a train, go to Bombay and sit, you'll be notified.
Which is what we did, we were in Bombay 30 days and we found an apartment, there
were 3 or 4 of us in the apartment with some British troops, soldiers, that was a nice
place, except I got liver, kidneys, and every Wednesday they had kidney pie and those
kidneys were raunchy because you could smell them cooking them in the morning. That
was horrible. I found out you could buy Coca-Cola extract for $18/gallon and we'd get
the Coca-Cola extract and a the bearer, the servant we had, would bring us in the seltzer
water and we would get Indian Rum and we drank a lot of Rum-Coke while were there,
now a gallon of Coke-extract goes a long ways. And we had, we put on a big party and
we had a good time in Bombay, I forget who was with me, I think, I forget who was with
me and all of a sudden they notified us, they said be at the boat dock and such a such a
4
�time and the Mariposa came in there and that's what we came back on, then they charged
us a, I think it was supposed to be about $3/day for transportation, it was a troop ship.
Well, I rangled my way on the gun crew so I didn't know anything about a, you see the
Navy had the radio, Army Coast Guard artillery, out artillery had the gun system, the
weapons, they had one five-incher and two-three inchers in the fan tail, they had one big
one in the front, they had a lot of machine guns. The Mariposa was fast, a submarine
couldn't catch it. Unless it was ahead of it. Then we went unescorted. When we left, there
was a bunch of, a whole bunch of us, they gave all the pilots to man the machine guns,
we were never attacked there, but they, and I got on one of the candidates as a gun
pointer, I had a young Corporal Sgt. there check me out, of course I told him I knew all
about it, I didn't know a damn thing about it but they didn't either, so it didn't make any
difference. So we came back on the Mariposa. And we came down and we stopped at
Cape Town and as we left Bombay the riots broke out, that was in August, the riots broke
out in Bombay, because I remember the British troops coming in there, they put a
machine gun up in our room, up in the belfry, a little dorm they had up there, and I
remember they had hobnail boots, and we could hear these guys running up and down the
steps, a lot of racket, we didn't know what was going on, and as we got out of Bombay,
we had a torpedo fired at us, and a ship, they said, I didn't see it, but they said it was a
torpedo that had been fired at us, and then we went to Cape Town and we were degauzed
at Cape Town. Now degauzing is when they rap a lot of cables around your ship and they
demagnetize it for magnetic lines. And then we headed for the States and we came up
around thru Panama, we'd seen all that stuff floating in the water and the German
submarines were just blowing the heck out of everything in there. We didn't know at the
time what it was, we'd got to [Wehauka?] and I got in trouble with the Customs and I had
a first-aid kit that I'd got it out of a British fighter - it had a sea of ampoule of morphine in
it and the Customs found it, and oh, they let it land on me with a ton of bricks. I said
look, I'd been carrying this thing around for 5 months, it was sealed, I said it's a first-aid
kit, it had injection violet which they use for burns and there was compresses and but
they, I had an Indian suitcase and they went through that, they even tried to take it apart.
They thought I was a, they had a live one. Anyway, they finally let me go. I said take it,
throw it away, or you can have it, whatever you want. I said I didn't have any idea I was
going to get in trouble cause I got this thing. They were, they went through my pictures,
and the guy was taking out, he didn't take my negatives, but he was taking pictures he
wanted to keep himself. He had it approved down here, he said he'd have to sensor these.
And he took about 25 off me and, but he left the negatives, but he wanted them for
himself is what he wanted. And that was the whole story. Then I went to my girlfriend's
house, found out she'd gotten married while I was gone
5
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Flying Tigers Interviews and Films
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
United States--History, Military
China--History, Military
Veterans
China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Description
An account of the resource
Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War.
Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG.
Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Boring, Frank
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1938/1991
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Fei Hu Films
Christopher, Frank
Gasdick, Joseph
Misenheimer, Charles V.
P.Y. Shu
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video/mp4; application/pdf
Language
A language of the resource
English; Chinese
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
video; text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-88
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1938-1945
World War II
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Moving Image
A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-88_Baisden_Chuck_1991-06-08_v10
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Baisden, Charles
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1991-06-08
Title
A name given to the resource
Chuck Baisden interview (video and transcript, 10 of 11), 1991
Description
An account of the resource
Interview of Chuck Baisden by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Chuck Baisden was an armorer of the AVG 3rd Squadron, "Hell's Angels." He joined the American Volunteer Group (AVG) in 1941 after signing a covert contract with Continental Aircraft Mfg. Co. He was with the first forces to reach Burma and was stationed at Mingaladon and Magwe, Burma and Loiwing, Mengshi, and Kunming, China. He left the AVG at the expiration of his contract in 1942 and enlisted as a T/Sgt. in the US Army. In this tape, Chuck Baisden discusses the final days of the AVG and the arrival of the Army Air Corps, in addition to their meeting with General Bissell to discuss the weeks ahead.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Boring, Frank (interviewer)
Christopher, Frank (director)
Fei Hu Films
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
United States--History, Military
China--History, Military
Veterans
China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives.
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video/mp4
application/pdf
Language
A language of the resource
eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/25e444c4b39481346f8233a54723e56a.mp4
dabb852c08b9a39cc17559cc94732042
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f289dfe8a25892d7fec8424b719bd413.pdf
36b6b5040fdd178eff409a1c63d25dfd
PDF Text
Text
RHC-88 Fei Hu Films
Flying Tigers Interview
Interviewer: Frank Boring
Interviewee: Chuck Baisden
Date of interview: June 8, 1991
Transcriber: Frank Boring
[TAPE 11]
FB:
Finally, we'd gotten through to this point, these are all reminiscence kind of things, no
specific questions per se, no incidents per se, more of your reflections on. The last few
questions on war, your opinion, if you will, your reflection, just your own view of what
has happened, so it's not so much the specific airplanes, or anything like that, it's more
philosophic, your evaluation. To start off with, were there any deaths that occurred during
the AVG period of time that had a particular impact on you?
CB:
I think the worst one was Johnny Fauth. Because Johnny and I were good friends, I knew
he lived in the red line Ta. Johnny was an Atheist. He was a, because he got in some
terrific arguments, he said if I get killed, throw me in a hole and cover me up, that's it.
And so of course, that shook a lot of people up, but Johnny was a good mechanic and he
and I were real good friends and I think Johnny Fauth was probably, really affected me as
much as anything. And then of course, Pete Atkinson was another one and Neil Martin,
all those guys were killed but Fauth was the one that I knew him, I bought his pistol for
him, he slept in the, next to me in the barracks and that I think was maybe one of the
things. We were all in the same boat and we all had an equal chance of buying the farm,
so to speak, but Johnny Fauth was, and if you ever talked to this Ole Olson, he named his
P-47 Johnny Fauth. I've got a picture of it in the back room that he named his P-47 after
Johnny Fauth because him and Johnny were both mechanics together.
FB:
How do you look at the Military's attitude towards the AVG?
CB:
Well, the Military attitude toward the AVG, I can't blame the military some ways, they
were pulling on a lot of, at the time they had the big Air Force, Air Corps expansion.
They were pulling out qualified people. Now no squadron commander wants to lose
people. Chennault had made a lot of enemies, Gen. Chennault had made a lot of enemies
with the high ranks and that of course, he was one of the reason he was out of the
Service. He was a, he just got out of the Service because they didn't want him around.. I
had my own opinions of Gen. Chennault, I think Gen. Chennault was a brilliant tactician,
I don't agree with him as far as winning the war with air power, there's no way he could
have done that, but he was that way with it. Gen. Stillwell was on the ground power,
you've got to have everybody. I really don't believe that the Japanese had attacked at us
like they could have. I mean they'd wipe us out. There was no way we could have stood
up to them. I don't think that they had thought they were going to run in to what they'd
run in to, but I think, I also think that a Military outfit is a much better way to run a war,
than with a voluntary unit. I put 20 years in the military in the sack and you see what they
did at W-Sealed, these guys are well trained, they're well motivated, and that's the way
1
�you win wars. I really believed that if we'd have gone over there, they'd have really
clobbered us. That would have been the end of the Tigers.
FB:
What about the military attitude about the AVG sort of at the end, they had a lot of
treatment towards different, well they were trying to keep us there, there was a lot of
jealousy - there were a lot of these fellows that wanted to make a name for themselves. I
didn't have run in to any personal things myself, I didn't have any bone to pick with any
of them. I just know what some of the fellows had said, I do know that the powers of B
did everything in their powers to keep us there, and I think some of it was pretty petty, I
think we could have done away, if Bissel had not done what he'd done, I think that they
had probably would have made at least 50 percent of the AVG.
FB:
The last two questions and be careful, the last three questions, if you need some time to
think about it, please feel free, and its brief history..
CB:
I think the AVG accomplished in the history it was in, the biggest thing was that we were
the only one's that were doing anything in America. We'd had Pearl Harbor, we had got
wiped out of Pearl Harbor, we lost Corregidor, we'd lost the Philippines, the Navy was
sunk, we didn't have equipment over there, and we were the only ones that were doing
anything. And I think as a morale booster, it really helped the country. People were
grasping for straws, they wanted something that they could hang on to. And say, hey, I'm
an American and we're doing something good. As the war progressed, why then when we
got in to it, everybody got in to it, then it had turned into a different story. But I think
that's the biggest thing - it was a big book, it was like Jimmy Doolittle, Gen. Doolittle
accomplished nothing as far as tying Japan on a hawk. But it was a big morale booster - it
showed Japan it could be done and it showed at least we're trying to do something. but as
far as military, it didn't do anything.
FB:
What do you think the effect was for the Chinese people?
CB:
From what I see of the Chinese, it was a big, they couldn't do enough for us - they had
been bombed and bombed and bombed and well we were there to stop that and on the
whole it stopped. And of course, when the 14th Air Force took over, the Japs never hit
Kunming again - not to my knowledge.
FB:
What do you think you personally accomplished during that period of time?
CB:
Oh, gee, there was a period of my life, I don't think that I got over yet, at this stage of the
game, but I learned a lot. I learned a lot about the traveling around, as far as my own
skills as an armor, I had a lot of skills at that and it's something like, I just keep
remembering it, it still comes back to me and then I loose names and some will pop up
and I'll say, gee I was there, I was never dissatisfied that I joined the unit. I think that
later on, there was some rumor that Chennault, Gen. Chennault was doing something,
wanted to start something else up with the Chinese Communists, I didn't think I wanted
any part of it. I never heard the whole story on it, but I had heard rumors that he was
2
�trying to get another thing going to fight the Communists, I don't, whether it was true or
not.
FB:
How did the period of time during the AVG, how did that affect the rest of your life?
CB:
Well, I was through, I probably would have never Will. When I went back into the
service, I got tied up with Ole Olson - we went into pilot training, and I met her on the
west coast, so it probably changed my whole life, really, what I would have been doing
otherwise, I probably would have ended up in Greenland with the unit that was stationed
there at Mitchell Field, say I went to Greenland for a while and of course, I ran into some
people later on, Phil Cochrane, he was, he and Jimmy Allison headed up the Commando
unit and that was one hell of an outfit. It was the same thing as the Tigers. They got
people in there, there was no T and R, table of organization, we had [Mario? Enrack?]
floating around, shaking a stick at and we flew to, I flew up to 3 missions in one day and
all I had time was to smoke a cigarette and we were over the bomb line, you might say it
that way and Cochrane was a G.I. soldier from way back - as long as you did your job,
we had some people come in there and they got a little ticked off because the guys
weren't shaving and he put a thing in the bulletin board, Support Powers of B that don't
look like our parents, now we're doing a job he said, but it would be nice if you did
scrape off some of the rough stuff, the next time they come around, stuff like that.
FB:
Final questions, what is your own personal opinion, not that has to do with newspapers,
or reporters, or anything like that, what does it feel like from you to be called a Flying
Tiger?
CB:
Well, in a way, I'm proud of the name, I wasn't a pilot, and so I really wasn't a Flying
Tiger, I'm a Flying Tiger in a sense, I did the job but I wasn't one of the guys that did the
thing. Of course, I'm very proud of what I did, I wanted to fly an airplane real bad, and I
never, I just didn't have the ability to do it. And I might say that I just, there was no outfit
like it, there probably never will be another one. I know I felt left out for this, I felt like I
was left out of it. Now I know I'm too old for it, the mind was willing but the body wasn't
able. But I wouldn't mind being over there. That's an idiotic statement, but I still wouldn't
mind being over there. But my wife would have something to say about that.
3
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Flying Tigers Interviews and Films
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
United States--History, Military
China--History, Military
Veterans
China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Description
An account of the resource
Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War.
Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG.
Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Boring, Frank
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1938/1991
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Fei Hu Films
Christopher, Frank
Gasdick, Joseph
Misenheimer, Charles V.
P.Y. Shu
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video/mp4; application/pdf
Language
A language of the resource
English; Chinese
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
video; text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-88
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1938-1945
World War II
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Moving Image
A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-88_Baisden_Chuck_1991-06-08_v11
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Baisden, Charles
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1991-06-08
Title
A name given to the resource
Chuck Baisden interview (video and transcript, 11 of 11), 1991
Description
An account of the resource
Interview of Chuck Baisden by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Chuck Baisden was an armorer of the AVG 3rd Squadron, "Hell's Angels." He joined the American Volunteer Group (AVG) in 1941 after signing a covert contract with Continental Aircraft Mfg. Co. He was with the first forces to reach Burma and was stationed at Mingaladon and Magwe, Burma and Loiwing, Mengshi, and Kunming, China. He left the AVG at the expiration of his contract in 1942 and enlisted as a T/Sgt. in the US Army. In this tape, Chuck Baisden reflects on the overall accomplishments of the AVG and the effect that period of time had on the rest of his life.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Boring, Frank (interviewer)
Christopher, Frank (director)
Fei Hu Films
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
United States--History, Military
China--History, Military
Veterans
China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives.
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video/mp4
application/pdf
Language
A language of the resource
eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4a6a29d0c9ea87c1258c2f666beadf0a.m4v
271947b8fbfbc14b4647c3004c4eb029
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e18898f5a7ba2373a548f84bbfa3f869.pdf
3cfe443e19eca43631bb4a6638941ce1
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans' History Project
Mel Bajema
Vietnam War
Interview length: 1 hour 5 minutes 8 seconds; Tape Length: 1 hour 35 minutes 15 seconds
(00:00:31) Early Life
-Born in High Wycombe, England on March 12, 1946
-His father was stationed in England with the U.S. military and his mother was a war
bride
-When he was a toddler his parents moved to the United States
-His father had been reassigned to Chanute, Illinois
-His mother and he (Mel) went and lived with his father's parents in Iowa
-His grandfather didn't approve of the marriage
-He was a "fire and brimstone" preacher that didn't treat his mother well
-His mother told his father that if they couldn't come to Illinois she would leave
-He (Mel) and his mother joined his father at Chanute Air Field, Illinois
-His father was in the Army Air Corps (which became the Air Force)
-Served with the Air Force for eight years
-After his father completed his service the family moved to Michigan
-His father wanted to become a preacher, so he went to Calvin College, Grand Rapids
-Eventually had to leave due to financial reasons
-His father became a grocery store manager
-He (Mel) graduated from high school in June 1964
-Throughout high school he had worked at the grocery store for his father
-He also worked there briefly after he graduated from high school
(00:03:31) Enlisting in the Air Force
-He wanted to form a sense of identity and felt the military was the best option for that
-The branch that he decided on was the Air Force
-Influenced because of his father's service and because he felt the Air Force was the elite
-Before reporting for basic training he received aptitude testing
-Attempt by the Air Force to decide which position would be best for the recruits
-The first stop was at Fort Custer, Michigan for processing and sorting
-At this time it was June 1964
(00:04:53) Basic Training
-He was sent to Lackland Air Force Base, Texas for his basic training
-There were parts of basic training that were largely unpleasant
-The TIs (technical instructors) were uncaring and at times unnecessarily demanding
-He heard a rumor that one recruit was forced to run until he died of exhaustion
-There was a huge focus on psychologically breaking down recruits
-This was accomplished by forcing recruits to obsessively clean their quarters
-There was one time the TIs made a mess of the barracks
-The recruits were forced to clean the barracks in a limited amount of time
-He was in good physical shape upon entering the Air Force
-But still had to work up to a point that was acceptable for the Air Force
�-The primary, overall focus during basic training was discipline and following orders
-He spent six weeks training at Lackland
-For him it was pretty easy to adjust to military living
-Other men weren't able to adjust and were reassigned, or sent home
(00:09:31) Technical School
-He spent eight weeks in technical school
-He was sent to a technical school in Amarillo, Texas
-His specialization in the Air Force was to work in supply
-The technical school training consisted mostly of classroom work
-Instructors were better than in basic training, but still demanding
-He finished technical school in early 1965
-He had been allowed to go home for Christmas 1964 though
(00:10:49) Assignment to Selma, Alabama
-He was stationed at Craig Air Force Base near Selma, Alabama
-His position was to work with supplies out of a Quonset hut
-He was part of Air Training Command
-This meant he was in a support role for the officers training to be pilots
-His job involved tracking where parts and supplies were on the base
-He stayed at Craig until September 1967
-There was still animosity towards Northerners at the time
-For the sake of peace he tried to adjust to, and insert himself into, the community
-He heard about the Civil Rights Movement, but wasn't tremendously aware of the struggle
-He saw how African Americans were treated by Southerners
-He had a part time job pumping gas in Selma and saw black customers turned away
-This was completely foreign to him coming from the North and not being racist
-At Craig when the Edmund Pettus Bridge Incident happened
-The National Guard was called in
-They had to allow the National Guardsmen to stay on their base
-While this was going on they were not allowed to leave the base
-Aside from the Civil Rights struggle the assignment to Selma was routine and boring
-Get up, eat breakfast, go to work, go to barracks, relax and repeat every day
-He had wanted to take college courses, but only got around to taking one
(00:17:20) Volunteering for Vietnam
-After getting sick of being in Selma he expressed his frustration with his assignment
-He wanted to travel with the hope of going to Europe
-If he reenlisted he would get to go to Europe, which didn't appeal to him
-He had only one year left, so he was offered a deployment to Southeast Asia
-He took that offer
-Two weeks later he received a letter telling him that he was being sent to Vietnam
(00:18:20) Deployment to Vietnam
-He visited home briefly before leaving for Vietnam
-Travelled by air to San Francisco, then took a bus down to Los Angeles
-In Los Angeles he boarded a chartered commercial plane bound for Vietnam
-Stopped for gas along the way, but never long enough to get off the plane
-They eventually landed in Tan Son Nhut Air Base in Saigon, South Vietnam
-First impression was being scared
�-He had blonde hair which drew attention from the local girls
-Prostitutes would solicit him too which shocked and intimidated him
-They landed during the day
-Nothing eventful was happening when they landed
-He was placed in a barracks on base until he left for Da Nang
(00:20:53) Stationed at Da Nang
-He took a cargo plane up to Da Nang
-It was a tense plane ride
-The pilot didn't know how to handle the C-130, so the 2nd Lieutenant on board took
over
-When he arrived in Da Nang he was assigned to a quarters in "Tent City"
-He met some men that he had known in Selma
-The first three months were calm
-It almost felt like being on a base in the United States
-Over time they began to receive minor incoming fire at night
-The Viet Cong's goal was to keep the U.S. troops from getting sleep and to demoralize
them
-It was nothing compared to what would happen in the Tet Offensive though
-His daily routine was similar to the one that he had in Selma
-Working in supply, but in a slightly different capacity
-In a way it felt like a day job just with military etiquette
-He worked in supply for six months
-Didn't have to pull bunker duty, guard duty, or any duty like those
(00:25:33) Enemy Presence and Relations with Civilians in Da Nang
-He felt safe until he realized that they were totally surrounded by Viet Cong
-Vietnamese civilians were employed on the base to do menial tasks
-The Viet Cong began to kill civilians sympathetic towards the Americans
-He was able to visit the city of Da Nang before it became too dangerous to leave base
-No one was allowed to have their M-16 rifle on hand
-Had them kept in a locked weapons locker
-Seemed asinine to him because it left them completely vulnerable
-Just before the Tet Offensive began the mortar attacks became more frequent
-He would watch as American helicopters attacked Viet Cong mortar crews near Da Nang
-For a long time it didn't even seem like there was a war being fought
-It was something occurring near them, but not involving them
(00:30:33) The Tet Offensive
-Working in the supply hut when the Tet Offensive began
-He heard explosions outside and took cover under his desk
-The explosions were so close, and so powerful, that the concussion buckled the floor
-After he left the hut he saw the extent of the damage and heard more about it too
-Everything was orange (burning)
-To him it looked like what the stereotypical idea of hell looked like
-A squadron and a half of jets had been lost to the attack (27-36 jets roughly)
-He wasn't aware of any Vietnamese ground troops having penetrated the perimeter
-The rocket attack only happened once
-He feels that the goal of the Vietnamese had been to disrupt U.S. air presence
�(00:34:46) Volunteering for Air Traffic Coordinator
-After six months of being a supply clerk a call for a volunteer for air traffic coordinator came
-The job involved being on the flight line helping oversee the handling of cargo on aircraft
-He decided it would be more interesting than being a clerk, so he volunteered
-He was put on a day shift, a mid-shift, and a graveyard shift, then got three days off
-He would unload and load dead soldiers and wounded soldiers
-His job also involved signaling pilots and telling them where to park their aircraft
-It was a more interesting job, but more dangerous as well
-The flight line took small arms fire pretty consistently
-One time a sniper took a shot at him and he felt the bullet go past his head
-It was common for aircraft to take fire as they landed, or took off
-They didn't suffer any mortar attacks on the flight line
-At the time Da Nang's U S military population was 2/3 Marines and 1/3 Air Force
-He worked exclusively with the Air Force, and never the Marines
(00:39:11) Downtime in Da Nang
-For the most part he would spend downtime sleeping and eating
-He got a reel-reel recorder through a friend that took an R&R in Japan
-Used it to record music on the radio at the USO Club
-Martha Ray came in as part of the USO to perform for the troops
-There was a base theatre that showed movies
(00:40:38) Living Conditions, Morale, Race Relations, and Drugs
-As the year went on he ran into more draftees
-Sometime during the year he was moved from "Tent City" to an actual barracks
-Felt that the tents were actually safer than a large structure that drew attention
-He knew one soldier who would consistently leave base to fraternize with Vietnamese girls
-This eventually led to him getting a dishonorable discharge
-He always strove to do his job well because at the time he believed in the cause
-Most soldiers that he worked with tried to do their jobs well
-He wasn't aware of drug use until Marines started coming back from the field
-Marines were using cocaine
-Indoctrination and coke made the Marines act like they were invincible
-He knew one Marine who had that attitude and was dead two weeks later
-He would ship out seventeen dead soldiers each shift
-Feels that compared to previous wars casualties were light
-Working on the flight line made him painfully aware of the toll of the war
-He never heard of Air Force service members using drugs
-There were more whites than blacks, and few Hispanics
-Everyone got along fairly well though
-At Da Nang he didn't hear about the MLK assassination
-News outlets provided by the military only allowed for a limited scope of information
-Thus that event didn't come up in the "Stars & Stripes"
-Communicated with his family through letters
-When he was still in "Tent City" someone was able to get hold of a Christmas Tree
-He received a Christmas care package in March 1968
-The brownies were moldy, but they all ate them anyway
-They had a PX (general store) on base which largely negated the need for care packages
�-On Fridays he would always try to treat himself to steak and eggs
-If you wanted to get drunk you just had to go to the NCO Club and order a few drinks
-The heat exacerbated the effects of the alcohol
-There were no apparent alcoholics in Da Nang
(00:50:14) Interactions with Officers
-He didn't have any officer watching over him until he became a traffic coordinator
-Even when he was on the flight line he wasn't closely supervised
(00:51:10) Going Home
-When he was ready to go back home an officer pulled him aside and gave him some advice
-"Forget that you were here, don’t volunteer to talk about your experiences”
-At the time the advice seemed strange, but as time went on he understood
-He learned that the war had been futile
-He wasn't aware of the anti-war protests going on in America
-Heard something about 'Make love, not war' but that was it
-He kept track of when he was going home by using a short time calendar
-He didn't know exactly when he was going home, just one day it happened
-There was no acclimation process or course on how to adjust to going home
-From Da Nang he flew down to Tan Son Nhut Air Base in Saigon
-He heard men were dying from mortar attacks in Saigon
-Fortunately for him, when he arrived Saigon was quiet
-When he came home he wasn't harassed by protesters
-He landed in Los Angeles, California then he returned to Grand Rapids, Michigan
(00:56:12) Reassignment to Pensacola, Florida
-He received new orders to go to Eglin Air Force Base in Pensacola, Florida
-He went down to Florida with a bitter and resentful attitude
-He technically had 110 days of his enlistment left
-Felt that his year in Vietnam should have satisfied the rest of his enlistment
-Because of his bitterness he would sleep in and be generally uncooperative
-He got called into the sergeant's office and was yelled at, but not punished
-He continued doing supply work, but didn't work as hard as he had at Selma, or Da Nang
(00:57:39) Life after the War
-After the Air Force he didn't have the direction that he thought that he would have
-His mother suggested that he go to Post Office for a job
-He took the test and was hired on to be a mailman
-Wound up staying with the Post Office for his career and retired from it
-His four years in the Air Force was added onto his thirty two years in the Post Office
-He was a Federal employee for thirty six years
-He feels that the Post Office was run very similarly to the Vietnam War
-Inept managers making bad decisions
-Leadership that had no foresight (in relation to the coming of email in the 1990s)
(01:00:38) Reflections on Service
-Shortly after he came home a Marine from his church was killed in Vietnam
-His mother insisted that he wear his uniform to church
-After that Marine was killed it became hard for him to face that family in his uniform
-He wondered why he lived and the Marine died
-When he returned home he talked openly about his experiences in Vietnam
�-Mostly talked to the kids in the youth group at Coopersville Christian Reformed Church
-Feels that because of his experiences and their interest he was more open to talk
-Feels that a lot of men came home traumatized and there was nothing to help them readjust
-Understood why a lot of men wound up committing suicide, or in mental hospitals
-Feels that because of his experiences he was able to readjust faster and easier
-Over the years ran into men that were reluctant to talk, and he understands why
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27_BajemaM1654V
Title
A name given to the resource
Bajema, Melvin (Interview outline and video), 2014
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2014-06-26
Description
An account of the resource
Mel Bajema was born in England in 1946. His father was in the Army Air Corps (later the Air Force once it became its own branch) and his mother was an English "war-bride." His family soon moved to the US and settled in Grand Rapids, Michigan. After high school, Mel enlisted in the Air Force, and served between 1964 and 1968. He trained in supply, and served between 1965 and 1967 at Craig Air Force Base near Selma, Alabama, and then requested assignment to Southeast Asia. He went to South Vietnam and was based at Da Nang, where he eventually switched from supply to ground control work. While there, he witnessed the attack on the base during the Tet Offensive.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Bajema, Melvin
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
United States. Air Force
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Moving Image
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a>
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Format
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video/x-m4v
application/pdf
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/dcb9ff60df6b54a70f624aa633a3b07d.mp4
84e2d3ea211c5535648f7c77abdb59d6
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4615349f19948ad2a07faebbd22057c0.pdf
45836ae6af457f32a2768a8051cc5d8b
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project
Charles Baker-Clark
(1:07:32)
Background Information (00:17)
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He was born in St. Louis, Missouri, in 1948. (00:20)
Because his parents moved around often Charles spent most of his childhood in Illinois. (00:57)
He completed high school in 1967. (1:26)
Charles worked selling ice cream for a summer after having graduated high school. (1:57)
He began his education at community college in the fall of 1967. (2:08)
In October of 1967 Charles decided he wanted to join the Navy. (2:26)
He had a history of family members in the Navy. He also had the desire to get away from home
and work on the water. (3:00)
Charles father did not approve of him joining the military. (4:00)
Training (4:36)
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He was sent to a building on Van Buren Street in Chicago where he went through assembly line
style with 50 other men to receive physicals. (40:40)
He was sent to Great Lakes Naval Base in Illinois. He found his own transportation to the base.
(5:13)
When the men arrived they were referred to as “receipts”; after being placed in a company they
were then called recruits. (6:20)
He did not believe that basic was all that difficult. (6:50)
Basic training lasted 13-14 weeks. (7:35)
Charles had a difficult time adjusting to the Navy initially. He was used to having very little
privacy however it was the psychological stress of not going to college and the fact that many of
his family members had been officers in the Navy that got to him. (7:45)
At the end of training the men put in requests as to what positions they wished to fill. There was
pressure for him to go into the nuclear training in the Navy due to his high aptitude test scores.
However this was a 6 year service rather than 4. He put down cook and hospital corpsman for
his position. (9:34)
There was such a great need for hospital corpsmen that any man who expressed a slight interest
in the field was taken. Charles knew little about the situation in Vietnam when he signed up.
(10:50)
Medical Corps Training (12:30)
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This training lasted 15 weeks at Great Lakes Naval Base. The training involved intensive
studding. Class lasted from 8 AM to 4PM. (12:30)
Charles thought that he was not good enough to keep up with the intensive studding and tried
to drop out but decided against it. (13:15)
After 3 weeks of training, another company was assigned alongside Charles. (14:37)
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Charles was in training in mid 1968 when the Tet Offensive ended. At this time wounded
soldiers were brought in from Vietnam to Great Lakes. This is when the men all became aware
of how many casualties there were from the war. (15:10)
Charles did pass his training in spite struggling often and failing to fit in due to his lack of
drinking. (15:51)
The men learned that most new corpsmen were sent to a hospital for 6-8 weeks for some
training in the wardss. Then the men were sent to Camp Lejeune and then Vietnam. For a period
of time the men would work at a field medical station and then in the bush for 6-8 months.
(16:44)
First Assignment: Naples, Italy (17:41)
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Charles was first assigned to work in Naples, Italy, along with 2 other men he had previously
trained with. (17:42)
He began working in a hospital. It was very hot and not air-conditioned. Charles felt fairly
unsure of himself at this time. (19:12)
The Corpsmen Charles was with often drank on their free time. Because Charles didn’t drink he
felt unable to fit in. (20:14)
The nurses were Charles's supervisors. Often they complained about his penmanship being
poor. (20:40)
He was in Italy from May to December of 1968. (21:15)
Charles did travel to Rome while working in Italy. (22:00)
When he returned to the hospital he found out that he was supposed to fill out a request form
to leave the city. (24:21)
The Italians mostly ignored the American military men. (25:19)
There were men who worked in Italy that spent their entire enlistment there and never moved.
(26:05)
Charles learned that one of the Corpsmen was selling drugs. He informed the office of Naval
Intelligence which set him up as an informant. When the deal was busted 12 fellow corpsmen
were also turned in. (26:47)
Naval intelligence then arranged an immediate transfer so that Charles did not get hurt by men
who were angry with him. (28:55)
Charles was then sent to VP26 in Maine. (29:50)
Service in Maine (29:52)
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He arrived in late December of 1968. (29:55)
The men in Maine were hesitant to place Charles in any position due to poor evaluation in Italy.
They asked for Charles's side of the story and decided to give him a chance. (30:36)
Finally Charles began to fit in after several months in Maine. (32:12)
The men who were often on the base flew PT Orions. The plains were used to drop buoys in the
water to help track submarines. (32:55)
In 1969 Charles was deployed with the Squadron that flew PT Orions in Iceland. (34:57)
Deployment with Unit (35:05)
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He was first sent with his unit to Iceland. While serving in Iceland the men came across a Soviet
Alpha. (35:06)
Most of the time Charles was left on the base but occasionally he was taken aboard the aircraft.
(35:58)
The men were then deployed to Sicily (37:16)
One of Charles corpsmen helped him serve soft drinks to Marines in order to make some
money. (38:31)
He was then sent to London. He remembered having a lot of freedom.(40:04)
He and his friends also had a chance to ride through the Alps.(41:27)
Charles made about 95 dollars a month. (41:52)
When he left Sicily, Charles's motor cycle was flown back to the U.S. aboard a plane. (43:00)
The day before he was to be discharged he was informed that due to low leadership scores and
the failure to be evaluated since then on leadership, Charles was not recommended for
reenlistment. This did not mean much to Charles at the time (44:09)
Life after Service (45:34)
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•
•
•
He attended Quincy College in Illinois after having served. (45:10)
He thought that the Navy was a fairly good experience. (45:30)
After having received his master’s degree at the age of 35, he attempted to reenlist. He was
eventually turned down as a result of his low leadership scores given in Naples. (45:45)
He feels very sympathetic for veterans and spouses of military men hen he meets them. (46:56)
Life in the Military (47:32)
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Charles lived in a large trailer while in Maine. He often met many people from his service.
(47:32)
The Italians often just left the military men alone. Some tried to take advantage of the men but
this was rare. (49:10)
The Corpsmen were typically white. There were, however, several African Americans and
Hispanics. (50:27)
There was one man who was ordered to stay in the dispensary until he lost weight but in reality
it was because he was black. (52:08)
The most tension that was seen in the military was between career servicemen and those who
desired to serve only 1 term. (53:03)
One of the surgeons placed a Jimi Hendrix poster on the ceiling of the operating room. (54:03)
Charles and other men would often play poker as a way to stay entertained. (55:50)
Effects of Service (56:15)
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After completing his service Charles had a stronger sense of self. (56:21)
Charles started out learning Psychology and Philosophy. He decided he wanted to be a clinical
psychiatrist but did not have the GRE scores. (58:02)
He then began working a job in counseling. He was later laid off. (59:00)
After being laid off he was given a dislocated service grant. He then went into culinary school at
Grand Rapids Community College. (1:00:05)
He then began working at the culinary department at Michigan State. (1:01:12)
�•
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He was then encouraged to pursue a PhD. (1:02:06)
Charles was required to take the GRE and this time improved his scores. (1:03:14)
He has written a book about the education of an adult. (1:05:34)
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Baker-Clark, Charles (Interview outline and video), 2012
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Baker-Clark, Charles
Description
An account of the resource
Charles Baker-Clark, born in St. Lois Missouri in 1948, served in the U.S. Navy from 1968-1970 as a Naval Corpsman during the Vietnam Era. After completing his basic training at Great Lakes Naval Academy, Charles was given medical training at the same base. After this was completed he was then sent to Naples Italy where he served in a naval hospital. In December of 1968 Charles had to be moved after he was involved as an informant used to bust a group selling drugs on the base. Charles was then moved to Maine where he served in another naval hospital. Soon after, he was sent to Iceland and then Sicily Italy where he served with a Unit of PT Orion pilots.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Kentwood Historic Preservation Commission (Kentwood, Mich.)
WKTV
WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
United States. Navy
Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2012-04-18
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
BakerC1374V
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a>
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application/pdf
video/mp4
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
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https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b56006ec58b2c820a44c940938adcc38.mp4
62bd8c620319ec76090554ebea25c04d
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/0ab7572c5cc8ab7a1e49d5c309c61b4b.pdf
ebd668d8c076ee3268a0f58dd47b7cb7
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans' History Project
John Baker III
Post-Korean War Cold War
(00:00:11) Early Life, World War II, and the Korean War
-Born in Kalamazoo, Michigan in 1935
-Grew up in Kalamazoo
-Remembers ration stamps during World War II
-Wasn't too concerned about the war because he was so young
-Only ten years old when the war ended
-Remembers a lot of young men joining the military
-Soldiers from Fort Custer came to Kalamazoo on Friday nights
-There was a night club, called “High Club Hollywood” popular with the troops
-Some uncles, cousins and his older brother served during the war
-He was 15 years old when the Korean War began
-Thought about the possibility of getting drafted if the war lasted long enough
-Didn't think about the war too much
-Got his GED when he entered the Army
(00:03:00) Enlisting in the Army
-Wanted to get married and was looking for a full-time job
-Had a part-time job at a local grocery store, but that wouldn't be good enough to start a family
-The mid-1950s were a bad time for employment
-Knew that he didn't want to enlist in the Navy
-Uncomfortable with being so far from land
-Enlisted in the Army with the promise that he and his best friend would serve together
-Army didn't make good on that promise
-Went into the Army knowing you would get whatever assignment the Army gave you
-Signed up for four years
-Wanted to get training with roto scrapers and tractor operator training
-Planned on working for the township after he got out of the Army
-Felt the Army would be good job training
-Sent to Detroit for processing and a physical
-Enlisted in 1954
(00:07:12) Basic Training
-Sent to Camp Chaffee, Arkansas for basic training
-Located in the hills and swamps
-Terrible for digging foxholes
-Had to clear a field of rocks
-One drill instructor named Sergeant Pigg was a great instructor
-Tough during training, but good to soldiers once the day was done
-Remembers one man nicknamed “Sergeant Slaughter” that was in charge of bayonet training
-First time that he had ever heard so much profanity, and so much of it directed at him
-Feels that R. Lee Ermy's character from Full Metal Jacket is an accurate depiction of drill sergeants
-Physical training was difficult for him, but it brought best out of him
-Some men couldn't handle the training
-They were either held back, discharged, or beaten into submission
-Basic training lasted for about a month to a month and a half
�(00�:11:47) Specialized Training
-Sent to Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri for specialized training
-Learned how to build Bailey bridges
-Portable, prefabricated truss bridge designed by the British during WWII
-Able to support a tank
-Remembers men wanting to go home
-Worked with timber trestle bridges
-Had to construct one then tear it down
-Trained there for a month
-Planned on going to a heavy engineering school in West Virginia
(00:15:00) Assignment to Alaska
-Sent to Fort Lewis, Washington and got assigned to Alaska
-Assigned to a machine shop in Alaska
-Sailed from Fort Lewis to Alaska
-A lot of the men got seasick because they had never been to sea
-Nobody ate much during the voyage
-Went on a troop transport
-Pulled into Whittier, Alaska
-Small base of Camp Sullivan
-Boarded a train and went to Fairbanks
-Assigned to Eielson Air Force Base
-Had empty barracks for Army personnel
-Arrived in Alaska in May 1954
(00:17:46) Stationed at Eielson Air Force Base
-Worked in the machine shop in the Adak Building
-Building from Adak moved to Eielson Air Force Base
-Had a couple lathes, a small mill, and a lot of basic hand tools
-Received almost no machine shop training other than some experience as a civilian
-Assigned to be the carpenter in the machine shop
-Sergeant agreed to give him a little training, but the rest of it he had to learn on his own
-Realized in hindsight how rewarding the work was
-Made parts to repair broken items
-Had to make parts to modify a 120mm gun
-Someone fired a nearby 120mm emplacement and he thought he was dead
-Army and the Air Force shared the base
-Air Force brought in material the Army needed
-Stationed there for two years
(00:21:24) Winter & Summer in Alaska
-Noticed that the married men had a lot of children
-There wasn't much to do during the winter except that
-Went on drills during the winter
-Went on one bivouac for two weeks during the winter
-Had a mobile machine shop truck for use during the bivouac
-Meant he could use his electric razor because the tools needed electricity
-Shared a tent with five other soldiers
-Coldest it got during the winter was -54°F
-No problems with frostbite
-Army made sure the men had adequate gear for the winter
-Dealt with mosquitoes in the summer
�-After the summer solstice the sun didn't set for too long at night
-Remembers reading the newspaper at 2 AM with sunlight
(00:25:42) Downtime in Alaska
-Read newspapers and drank 3.2% beer
-Spent time with his wife and daughter
-There was married housing for sergeants and their wives
-Part of a carpool with the other married sergeants and their wives
-Wives went to the PX to get food because local shops were too expensive
-Resulted in the men having to hitchhike 30 miles home
(00:28:52) Cold War
-Only focused on what was happening in Alaska
-Not in Europe or around the United States
-Interested in the jets that flew over Alaska
-Jets had 45 minutes to take off and intercept a possible enemy aircraft
-Ground personnel had only 30 minutes to react
-Aware of the possibility of a Soviet attack
-Had procedures to move out of the base quickly
-Gathered gear and loaded it onto trucks
(00:32:24) Door Incident
-There was a door in the machine shop that didn't close properly if it wasn't shut hard enough
-The men complained if the door didn't shut because it allowed the wind in
-One time John slammed the door shut to insure that it closed all the way
-Resulted in a huge sheet of ice falling and breaking his nose
(00:33:29) Stationed at Fort Lewis
-Sent back to Fort Lewis, Washington
-Assigned to work as a truck mechanic
-Minimal experience with mechanic work
-Only experience he had was from working on cars as boy
-Greased trucks, changed their oil, and performed inspections
-Lived on the base and off the base
-There were more things to do in Washington than in Alaska
-Stayed outside of the city
-Base was 15 minutes from Tacoma
-Wife was pregnant at the time
-Work at Fort Lewis was similar to a civilian day job
-Didn't have emergency drills for a Soviet attack like in Alaska
(00:37:14) End of Service
-No encouragement from the Army to reenlist
-Disappointed about not getting to continue his machine shop work at Fort Lewis
-Got to do different tasks in the Army, but not what he wanted
-Thought about reenlisting so he could serve in West Germany with his brother
-Reconsidered after thinking about how disappointing the four years had been
-Contracted meningitis at the end of his enlistment
-Had only two weeks left of his enlistment
-Army told his parents to come to Fort Lewis
-Thought he wouldn't survive the infection
-Spent about two months in the hospital
-Friends snuck beer into the hospital for him
-Supposed to get discharged on April 15, 1958
�-Meningitis delayed his discharge until June 18, 1958
(00:40:05) Life after the Army
-Returned to Kalamazoo, Michigan
-Employment opportunities opened up due to machine shop experience
-Worked for the Kalamazoo Sled Company
-Father worked for them during the Great Depression
-Made $1.30 an hour
-This is compared to $42 a month in the Army
-Army helped with paying for children though
-Received $130 a month allowance since he was married and had a child
-Worked in a paper mill
-Made a career out of working for the Upjohn Company
-Attended a trade school
-Paid for by the GI Bill
(00:43:48) Reflections on Service
-Would do a lot of things differently if he did it again
-Grew up a lot
-Sergeant Pigg made him grow up a lot
-Realized that none of the training was dangerous, just uncomfortable at times
-Gained practical skills from the Army
-While in Alaska he used his new machine shop skills to make candle holders for his wife
(00:45:49) Honor Flight
-Oldest daughter encouraged him to go on the May 2015 Talons Out Honor Flight
-Trip to Washington DC to honor veterans from WWII, Korea, and the postwar era
-Overwhelming experience
-Worthwhile trip
-Day started at 5:30 AM and got back to Michigan at 11 PM
-Participated in a big parade and got treated to multiple meals throughout the day
-Celebration ended at East Kentwood High School
-Greeted and thanked by thousands of people
-Once in a lifetime experience
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
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RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
BakerJ1916V
Title
A name given to the resource
Baker, John H III (Interview outline and video), 2016
Description
An account of the resource
John Baker III was born in Kalamzoo, Michigan in 1935. He grew up in Kalamazoo and enlisted in the Army in 1954. John received basic training at Camp Chaffee, Arkansas and engineer training at Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri. Upon completion of his training he was sent to Fort Lewis, Washington where he took a ship to Alaska. He was assigned to Eielson Air Force Base near Fairbanks, Alaska for two years and worked in the machine shop. Upon completion of duty in Alaska he returned to Fort Lewis, Washington and served for two years as a truck mechanic. At the end of his service he contracted meningitis, and once he recovered from that was discharged from the Army on June 18, 1958.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Baker, John H. III
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American
United States. Army
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Language
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eng
Date
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2016-02-05
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Format
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application/pdf
video/mp4
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f30145b84afaa86dbfcecd198b6dd795.m4v
42f6301f60b517d51972c72dc26a195f
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ba281508bea3d2e278fb3ecac15f1d95.pdf
e3632f63f9e330c81be3c2e9219f01e6
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans' History Project
Lee Bakker
World War II
39 minutes 26 seconds
(00:00:18) Early Life
-Born in Wellsburg, Iowa
-Sixth of seven children
-There were six boys in his family (including him) and one girl
-Father was a farmer
-He helped his father on the farm
-Born on October 14, 1924
-Farm grew crops, raised cattle, milked cows, raised hogs, and raised chickens
-He was used to hard work
-Attended Wellsburg Public High School
-Played sports
-Graduated in 1943
(00:02:11) Getting Drafted
-Got drafted after graduating from high school in May 1943
-Father protested it because he needed help on the farm and one son was already
drafted
-Lee was deferred until after the harvest in 1943
-Reported to the Grundy County Courthouse then went to Des Moines
-Got processed in Des Moines
-Given a physical
-In good physical shape
(00:03:50) Basic Training
-Took basic training at Camp Roberts, California
-Carried three rifles and two backpacks on marches
-Did that to help the men from the city who weren't used to hard work
-Wore heavy work shoes
-He was comfortable while the other men were not
-Loved close order drills and rifle training
-Had a lot of experience with shooting on the farm
-Hunting vermin and birds
-Thought basic training was fairly easy
-Had a lot of free time
-Went to the movies
-Went into town when given a pass
-Had a good friend from Arkansas while in basic training
(00:06:00) Advanced Training & Assignment to the 70th Infantry Division
-Given a thirteen day furlough home
-Knew they were going to the Pacific Theatre
-Heard about how vicious the Japanese troops were and the atrocities they
�committed
-Decided to join the paratroopers
-Went to Fort Benning, Georgia for Airborne Training
-Broke his legs on a training jump
-Sent home to recover for a month
-Sent to the East Coast to go overseas as a replacement
-Before he could get deployed he received orders for Fort Leonard Wood,
Missouri
-Received training with the 81mm mortar at Fort Leonard Wood
-Assigned to the 70th Infantry Division
(00:08:14) Deployment to the European Theatre
-Sailed from the U.S. to Marseilles, France in November 1944
-Didn't get seasick, but other men did
-Remembers men hanging over the railing and throwing up
-Some men were so sick that they stayed in their bunk and wanted to die
(00:09:26) Faith in the Service
-Brother was in Italy with the Army Air Force
-Loading bombs onto bombers
-Never worried about his brother because he had faith God would take care of him
-Didn't feel nervous when he landed in Marseilles
-Had faith that God would protect him
-He was religious, but didn't show it
(00:10:49) Fighting in France
-Arrived in Marseille between December 10 and December 15, 1944
-Boarded a train in Marseille and went north to a town where the division assembled
-He was assigned to H Compay, 275th Infantry Regiment, 70th Infantry Division
-His company was assigned to defend a sector on the frontline
-Got routed on the first day by German infantry and tanks
-Retreated over a creek and the Germans stopped following them
-Closest he got to an actual firefight
-Stayed in their sector for twenty one days
-The winter of 1944 was a cold and snowy one
-Twenty one days without a hot meal
-Lived off of K Rations
-Got relieved after twenty one days
-Objective was to keep the Germans at bay
-Remembers when one shell landed really close to the mortars, but it was a dud
-Engineers relieved them then lost the position
-Focused on getting the job done and going home
-Remembers one day when they fired their mortars the entire day
-Doesn't know if any of the mortar shells he fired ever wounded or killed anyone
-Just glad he never had to shoot anyone face to face
(00:16:15) Advancing into Germany Pt. 1
-From Marseille went to Lyon
-In mid-January 1945 they moved on to Saarbrucken, Germany
-From Saarbrucken they crossed the Saar River and advanced deeper into Germany
�-Didn't believe he would survive the liberation of Germany
(00:17:08) Contact with Civilians
-Never encountered French civilians
-Had contact with German civilians
-Had difficulty communicating with them
-They spoke High German and his family spoke Low German
-Germans were grateful to be liberated from Nazi rule
(00:18:42) Advancing into Germany Pt. 2
-Very limited fighting in Germany
-German forces were retreating and didn't stop and fight
-Meant they were always on the advance
-Basically crossed Germany on foot
-Slept wherever they could find shelter
-Never got the chance to change their clothes
-Germans readily gave up buildings for the GIs to use for shelter
(00:20:30) Occupation Duty, Coming Home, and End of Service
-After the war ended they were assigned to occupation duty in Germany
-Spent most of the time playing softball
-On occupation duty in Gross Bliedersdorf near Frankfurt
-He was the pitcher on the softball team
-That didn't last long because he ruptured a disc in his back
-Did it trying to move a stove while on kitchen patrol (KP) duty
-Sent to a hospital in Frankfurt to recover
-Spent a lot of his time reading
-German doctor ultimately advised that he be sent back to the United States
-Flown back to the U.S.
-Flew from Frankfurt, Germany to the Azores to Newfoundland, Canada
-From Canada flew to New York
-Sent to O'Reilly General Hospital in Springfield, Missouri
-Given two options: medical discharge or receive an operation
-Opted to take the medical discharge
-Dealt with a bad back until 1951
-Received an operation from the Veterans' Hospital
-Already had a bad back from farm work
-Injury in the Army only exacerbated it
(00:25:36) Medals
-Received the following medals:
-Combat Infantry Badge: awarded for being in a combat zone
-Good Conduct Medal: awarded for good condut in the military
-European-African-Middle Eastern Campaign Medal with 3 battle stars
-Awarded for being in the European Theatre and in three major battles
(00:26:05) 81mm Mortar
-81mm mortar was composed of a tube fixed to a base plate with a tripod for aiming
-His job was to drop the mortar shells into the tube
-Gunner set up the tripod with stakes for aiming
-Fired one shot low, one shot short, and one shot for effect
�-If you fired those shots well enough you hit your target
-It was a two man operation firing a mortar
(00:27:45) End of the War in Europe & Occupation Duty
-In Germany for Victory in Europe Day (May 8, 1945)
-For the men it was basically just another day
-No major celebrations
-On top of occupation duty they trained for the invasion of Japan
-Invasion was cancelled after the atomic bombs were dropped
-Feels it was a terrible thing to do, but it saved a lot of lives
(00:29:08) Life after the War Pt. 1
-Did not use the GI Bill after the war
-When he was at O'Reilly General Hospital he was given a thirty day furlough
-Went home and got married to his high school sweetheart; her name was Lois
-Got discharged in September 1945
-He couldn't work, but Lois worked as a teacher
-He also received severance pay from the Army
-Lived with his in-laws for a while
-Father-in-law had a house in the area; he and Lois moved there
-About seven miles from Ackley, Iowa
-Lee got a job driving an ice cream truck in Ackley
-Also delivered ice cream mix to Iowa Falls, Iowa
-Hurt his back again
-Looked into working for a hardware store in Ackley, Iowa
-Electrician in Ackley needed help, so Lee helped him doing electrical work
-Enjoyed it and the electrician was a great mentor
-Started his own electrical company in Wellsburg in 1949
-Hurt his back again
-In 1951 he went to the Veterans' Hospital in Des Moines for back surgery
-In 1956 he got a job as a mail carrier for the Post Office
-Did that for twenty eight years
-Had to retire because he had heart surgery when he was sixty two years
old
-As of the interview he is the last surviving member of his immediate family
-Brother survived the war, but died in his seventies
-Member of the American Legion and the Veterans of Foreign Wars
-Has been a member of the American Legion for seventy years
-Never went to any meetings
-Never suffered from any psychological trauma
(00:36:19) Reflections on Service
-At the time, all young men knew they were going to go into the service
-Matured in the Army
-Enjoyed the Army
-In the service for one reason: to defeat the Nazis
-Felt they did their job to the best of their abilities
-Thankful to God that things turned out the way they did
(00:38:10) Life after the War Pt. 2
�-Lois died when she was fifty three years old
-Remarried after Lois died
-Married to Thelma for thirty five years
-Had four boys with Lois
-Dwight, Randy, Mark, and John
-Has many grandchildren and great-grandchildren
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27_BakkerL1875V
Title
A name given to the resource
Bakker, Lee Richard (Interview outline and video), 2015
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-09-01
Description
An account of the resource
Lee Bakker was born in Wellsburg, Iowa on October 14, 1924. After graduating from high school in 1943 he was drafted in fall 1943. He was inducted in Des Moines, Iowa and received basic training at Camp Roberts, California. After basic training he tried to be a paratrooper and received the training at Fort Benning, Georgia, but broke his leg. He was then sent to Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri where he trained with 81mm mortars and was assigned to the 70th Infantry Division. He left the U.S. in November 1944 and arrived in Marseille, France in December 1944. He was assigned to H Company of the 275th Infantry Regiment of the 70th Infantry Division and fought in France, and Germany (liberating the city of Saarbrucken) and crossing the Saar River. He was stationed in Germany for occupation duty until he threw out his back and returned to the United States. He received treatment at O'Reilly General Hospital in Springfield, Missouri and got medically discharged in September 1945.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Bakker, Lee Richard
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Moore, Deb (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
United States. Army Air Forces
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Moving Image
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a>
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video/x-m4v
application/pdf