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(For Bob)
Chemical odors remind me
My smell is still intact.
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Impatient for test results
I isolate with grimness
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                    <text>Pandemic Diary: Day 24
by windoworks
As you could see from yesterday’s post, I was confused by the date. Well, when you’re inside the house
pretty much for 24 days straight, the date and even the day of the week become very much irrelevant.
Yesterday the weather was so very nice that CB decided to move up his annual porch maintenance, and
while he was sweeping, sanding, mopping and then staining, a number of the neighbors came outside to
chat from more than 6 feet away. It was good to catch up. Ours has always been the block that people only
move away from out of sheer necessity - and then they come back to visit on holidays and our annual
block party.
As I write this morning, the news is not good. It is scary to be living in Michigan at this time. Yesterday
the totals reached 12,670 cases and 478 deaths. Masks are starting to be worn outside and both my
neighbors are making them. The feeling is that the greater area of Detroit is where the majority of cases
and deaths are. It may be due to density or poverty. As this point no one is entirely sure. Here in Kent
County our cases are increasing and again, no one knows if this will stay the same, increase or decrease.
In other news from Sydney Australia, you might be fined $1000 if you refuse to move on from a park
bench. Apparently walking or running outside is okay but stopping and sitting is not. Also in Australia,
our large extended family group (around 60 members if everyone shows up) has postponed their annual
get together at a cabin site on the NSW coast, and instead we are all posting happy hour photos online and
answering quizzes. CB and I are still 5 answers short - and the rule is no googling. Hmmmm.
In other, other news, this is the designated day that our little family group is meeting online to discuss our
first ever book club book: An Elderly Lady is up to No Good. I chose the book as it was as requested: short
and an easy read. We’ve all read it except one family member who’s read two thirds. There may be some
words expressed later, I’m not sure.
The other day I was talking to a friend on the phone and she said: won’t it be good to be able to hug
friends again when this is over? And I said that perhaps I might have to stay inside for another 2 weeks
just to be sure. This morning I read that malls might never reopen or recover, because people may not be
comfortable in crowds for a long time to come. Even CB has talked about spacing students and sanitizing
his classroom at the university in September (if face to face classes resume then).
So now its not that I can’t imagine being confined like this for a long time, its that I can’t imagine coming
out of the house again or what that will look like. I feel like if the Governor says you don’t have to self
isolate any more, I’ll be: I trust you Governor Whitmer but could I have that signed and sealed in
triplicate please?

�And honestly, if I can’t browse in the grocery store and my daughter can’t sit on a park bench, then no!
The Governor won’t open the golf courses so you can play golf.
Today’s flashback;

This is Copenhagen in July 2018. We were about to sail to Scotland and Iceland the next day with CB
lecturing on a New York Times cruise. Scandanavia was experiencing an unusual heatwave and when we
landed at the airport we were herded onto a coach with no air conditioning. As we drove from the airport
to the hotel we could see that a drought had been happening for some time as everything looked dried up
and dusty. We were staying overnight in a lovely old fashioned hotel in the middle of the city. Our room
was up the in the eaves of the roof and while it was an elegant suite, it had no air conditioning and even
with the windows open it was still quite warm. As the evening drew in, we went for a walk through the
streets to look for somewhere to have dinner. The concierge had recommended that we look down some
of the side streets to find hidden restaurants.
Finally I saw a wooden sign on the sidewalk down a tiny lane way and we went to investigate. It was one
of the best meals I have ever eaten inside a tiny restaurant with tiny rooms on several levels. The only
downside was - no air conditioning! As the meal progressed it got hotter and hotter. Our waiter told us

�that all Copenhagen was struggling in the heat. They simply weren’t equipped for it. Almost no shops,
hotels or restaurants had air conditioning. I did enjoy our brief stay in Copenhagen and I would like to go
back, especially to visit the Tivoli Gardens.
Stay safe, stay home, only one family member in the grocery store at a tome, and wear a mask when you
leave the house. Sending huge hugs to all wherever you are in the world.

�</text>
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                    <text>Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project
Elaine Panzone
(00:23:32)
The interview is of Elaine Panzone life starting when she was born, progressing
through her experiences in World War II and also about some of her later life after
World War II. The interview is conducted by Charles Collins.

So what is your full name, Elaine?

(00:51)

Elaine Natceros (maiden name), married is Panzone. Panzone is Italian
Where were you born?
Kankakee, IL
What was your birth date?
1916
Were you drafted Elaine?
No, they didn’t draft nurses at that time.
So you enlisted didn’t you?
I sure did.
Where did you enlist?
In Kankakee, Il …no I didn’t either. No…no..up here in Grand Rapids, MI
Okay, so you enlisted in Grand Rapids, and in what branch of the service were in.
Army Nurse Corps.
Where did you take your initial training? (01:54)
Right there in Kankakee, IL, at St. Mary’s Hospital.
After you were inducted and took your training, where were you stationed then?

1

�CampEllis. That is where I went first. The first part of it was training and then we
worked there for a while.
Where was Camp Ellis, what state?
Illinois
Where did you go after you left Camp Ellis?
Overseas.
During the time you were at Camp Ellis, did you have the opportunity to see any
entertainment as for an example, Bob Hope, or any people that were going around
during the war entertaining.?
I don’t think I recall any of that because they kept us so busy with the basic training,
because we had to do the exercises and we had to get uniforms and we had to …..you
know what I mean and we had to have orientation to the hospital there and so forth. We
were really quite busy..
What did your basic training consist of?

(03:22)

Oh it had to do with exercises like volleyball and other exercises.
And your training during that period of time?
It had to do with Army stuff, etiquette and that sort of stuff. Then hospital stuff, that
came along later.
Were you a nurse before you enlisted?
Oh…yes. You see when I found out I wanted to go into the Army, I found out that I was
one hundred pounds (100 lbs.) overweight. So I had to lose it.
How long did it take you to do that?
From about, I think, it was about February until September.

Okay, so what was the date that you enlisted?
I think it was September or something.
Do you know if the year was 1941 or 1942?

(04:38)

Oh no, it was later than that. I think it was 1942.

2

�As you took your nurse’s training, you obviously knew much of the training as far
as nursing was concerned because you was one already. So what new things did you
train for as far as…
Well, I recall that the first thing they found out about me was that I had not had any
psychiatric nursing experience, so where did they assign me.
Psychiatric ward I am sure…….(laughing) That is typical isn’t.
But on the ward where I worked, I remember, how valuable the corpsmen were for being
helpful. I was very grateful for that.
Now while you were at Camp Ellis, you were stationed at the Psychiatric Ward and
who were they treating in that ward, fellows that had been overseas?
Yes.
So they had some real problems as far as war was concerned? (05:56)
Oh yeah.
Do you remember any of those particular occasions in that ward?
No. As I recall, it was a very short assignment.
Do you remember anything humorous that occurred during that assignment?
I wanted to tell you this because it happened just before we got to Camp Ellis. I was on a
train going from Chicago down there to Camp Ellis and I went into the bathroom to wash
my hands and I was in there and I looked in the mirror and there was a young lady next
me and she said to me, just like this, “Are you a nurse?” I said, “Yeah, why?” She said I
saw your watch. She then said, Are you going to Camp Ellis too. I said, “Yes.” Well,
she was from Chicago and her name was Russian so we got to become good friends on
the train and later we were assigned to the same unit. And she met a fellow later and he
was an infantryman and she met him and later they decided to get married in the
Philippines, and I was her maid-of-honor. She was a very good friend. Over there in the
Philippines there were a bunch of nuns up in a place in the mountains called Balio. In the
summer time that is where a lot of wealthy people went because it was a little cooler.
And so, they got married up there in Balio, and the bunch of nuns up there helped them.
Well, that was interesting. That was quite a pleasant experience then wasn’t it.
Oh well, it was beautiful. It was really beautiful.
So after leaving Camp Ellis, how did you get overseas?

(07:59)

3

�On the train from there to California, and then we had some kind of a thing they had to do
to get us ready to go overseas. I think there was something in the line of medications and
stuff. Because there was a bunch of tropical diseases to be concerned about over there, so
they oriented us in that kind of stuff. I was glad for that
So that was after you got to California?
Yup.
So that before you went overseas in California, you had an orientation?
Yes
How long did that last?
It seems to me that it was about a week. Then we boarded a big ship, I think at that time
it was called West Point.
West Point was the name of the ship.
I think so. They had changed the name for military use.
As you went overseas on the ship, do you remember anything particular that
happened on the ship, what kind of food you had, how they treated you?
Well, that was very nice, and the ship was very clean and of course it was very full. It
carried a lot of people.
How were you stationed there….where did you stay on the ship?

(09:54)

I think we had two to a room.
So you had a pleasant trip over. How was the weather?
The weather, of course, was warming up considerably. It was beautiful. The ship we
were on had to zig zag of course. We were allowed to go up on deck some times. A few
at a time to go up there and look around. At one point, I saw some kind of a ship, I didn’t
know what it was, but this ship was going a crossed our path and I looked at the number
on it, and I had a cousin on board that ship.
Really? That is interesting isn’t it.
So I was down here sitting on this step, and yelling…Well, right above us was the
Captain and he was listening in on this, and it didn’t take very long, then he had this
cousin of mine climbing aboard our ship.

4

�Really
So he came over for a little visit.
Was your cousin a lady or a man?

(11:43)

A man. That was some kind of a submarine.
So he got to visit you while you were on the ship?
Yeah. Isn’t that something?
Yes. Now how was the weather as you went over there? Obviously……
It was hot.
Was the ocean kind of smooth?
Yes. There was nothing in line of turmoil.
You didn’t get sea sick or anything like that huh?
No..no.

That’s lucky then…it is almost as good as a cruise ship isn’t it.
Yeah…yeah..only we didn’t have to pay for it.
So then when you arrived overseas, what area did you disembark or unload at?
New Guinea. And they had tents set up for us. They had to show you about your cot
and the mosquito netting and all that stuff and where is the showers and how many
showers you can take in a week, you know.
They had everything right down pat..didn’t they? (12:55)
Oh, they sure did. Then they had this real big nurse, I don’t remember her name, but she
was a big girl though. She stood up there in front of us in her slacks and stuff. Her
suntan shirts and slacks and stood up there in front of us and said, “This is what you are
going to be wearing.” I never was one for wearing slacks, and after I got out of the
service, I was never one for wearing slacks either. This was strictly for PT. Well
anyhow, she gave us all that sort of stuff and then we went to work, and got involved
with the various doctors and the services we were offered there.

5

�So your tour of duty was mostly in New Guinea?
No, about half and half.
So while you were in New Guinea, did you have any particular experiences that you
can recall.
Well, there was one experience; I had dengue fever. I had never heard of it over here. It
was a tropical disease like malaria. So they took care of that. I never had a recurrence.
It was all okay. That was the only illness I had.
During the time that you were there in New Guinea, who were you treating? Was it
soldiers that were coming back from the Pacific?
And then when we got over in the Philippines, they would bring us in especially at night
some Japanese POWs. They weren’t ill, they weren’t to be taken care of. They were just
to be confined until they could move them the next day. I think that was the way it was.
Any how, they would bring like six (6) or eight (8) at a time, but then they would put a
corpsman over there. It really wasn’t up to us. “Holy smokes!” we couldn’t handle the
names.
Did you learn any Japanese while you were there?
Oh no….we didn’t come that close….(laughing)
Do you recall any particular experiences with fellows that were coming back, that
you treated that was unique? (15:17)
Well, I remember one man was in bed and he was an American. I had been taking care
of him something like three (3) or four (4) days in a row, and I don’t recall what his
diagnosis was or anything like that, but eventually you get to the point where you start
talking about where is your home town……so he asked me where my home town, and I
told him Grand Rapids, and he said, “here!”, and he handed me a handful of Grand
Rapids presses. I thought that was pretty nice. Of course I soaked them all up. I thought
that was really marvelous.
So he somehow had gotten the Grand Rapids Press?
They had sent them to him because he was from there too. So I thought that was nice. A
lot of people that I met, I thought were really marvelous.
How about your commanders and the people that were above you…the doctors
…do you recall anything particular about those people?

6

�I just remember that it was pointed out to us that the doctors were specialists in various
fields, like orthopedists and plastic surgeons. And remember, way back then, these
specialties were in their infancy and so they did their very very best. It was just early.
So I assume the plastic surgeons and those fellows would have a real time in putting
together and repairing the guys’ wounds and so on? (17:09)
Oh yes…yeah.
That must have been a really hard job for them.
And after a certain period of healing, then they would be shipped to some other hospital.
I don’t know if it was a general hospital later on or where it was, but they were shipped
on to more formalized care.
So you were really in one of the hospital that would be called like a front line
hospital.
That is why we were called a field hospital. The 43rd Field Hospital. And when we
moved on into the Philippines, up there, it was a matter of setting up and the fellows had
to precede us, so they set up the hospital and when they set up the hospital, they set up
the stage, and then they set up a place for a lot of chairs. But when you went to the
various programs, you took your own chair…a folding chair you know. I remember
when they had Bob Hope there that day. I think we were one of the first at that time.
You took your own chair. Another nurse and I were walking down the isle to get to our
seats and he looked up and he said, “come on ladies, we are waiting for you……..”
So we got down there and we got seated and I thought he was marvelous at the time, and
I have been very interested in him ever since. So I saw his last few programs here, and
now I am sorry he is gone. He sure did a great job.
He was one of the great entertainers?
Really.
So you had the opportunity to see one of his programs. (19:15)

Oh absolutely.
Were they as good as they always said they were?
Oh absolutely. I think you could always say that his programs were always clean. And
he didn’t work them to death, you know. The people that he had with him like Francis
Langford, Jerry
(can’t remember)
(short break)

7

�Now we were just talking about you going to the Philippines and you were
mentioning some of the doctors and the specialties that they had there. Do you
recall any other instances where maybe you got in some wounded that needed
taking care of really bad or anything like that?
I don’t remember that as much as I remember the part of that whole thing that had to do
with tropical diseases….you know like Typhus. Now I had read about Typhus in a book,
but I certainly had never seen it. Here I had a patient right here in the ward with Typhus.
There were various kinds of that came up. Not very many of the nurses knew much
about so we learned. (21:20)
In a hurry, I’ll bet.
Yes.
Now how long were you in the Philippines?
I think it was approximately a year.
A year. And which year was that… do you remember?
No I don’t….that bothers me. I wish I could tell you.
That is okay…we’ll figure it out somehow.
Okay.
Now you saw Bob Hope in the Philippines?
Yes.
So obviously you got a chance to go to some entertainment. You were not married
at the time, is that right?
No…no…
So you could go out with the boys and see what was going on or not?
Yeah, but I didn’t do that …….we didn’t do that.
We didn’t do that huh.
We had a regulation that we didn’t leave the area without being two (2) or three (3)
nurses, with two (2) or three (3) escorts. You did not do any of that “Johnson” around.
That just wasn’t being done.

8

�I’ll be darn. That was to bad isn’t it. (22:27)
You’re looking at it from today’s point of view.
Yes….I know.
As you was in the Philippines and you obviously worked very hard then, what kind
of hours did you have?
As I recalled we had about a six (6) hour shift, you know like 6 in the morning to twelve
(12) noon, twelve (12) noon until six (6), and they a night shift.
So you had one shift a day.
One a day.
So one six (6) hour shift a day. Well that was pretty good, wasn’t it.
Yes is was, but due to the fact that you were trying to get used to the climate and the
working and getting to understand all these various things, it was quite a deal, and
especially when it came time to get over there to your quarters and get your mosquito
netting down and all that stuff and cleaned up. You heard about and I saw cartoons about
people who took a shower in a helmet full of water. We found out how that went.
You learned how to do that did you?
Absolutely.
That must have been interesting. (23:58)
Oh. Boy!
While you were in the Philippines did you meet any of the generals like General
MacArthur?
No.
You obviously saw him because you recognized his pictures. Can you remember
any time that you may have remembered any of the high up officers.
No
As you left the Philippines, how did you get home?
Well, we came back to California.

9

�On a ship? (24:40)
Wait a minute…wait a minute….we went to New Guinea.
We went back to New Guinea then.
I think I led you crooked here. We went first New Guinea and then to the Philippines,
and then home…..yeah.
As you got home was the war over at that time?

(25:10)

Not quite.
So had VE Day happened?
No. After we got home and saw the news and all that stuff it happened after we got back
here.
Where did you go from then?
We went back to California to Camp Stoneman. We went there and started up the
process of discharge. Then we got back on another train to come back this way.
Did you have any special experiences when you were at Camp Stoneman?
Are you talking about romantic or anything?
Have if you had some….(laughing).
happened, you know.

No..I was really talking about whatever

No it was just a matter of getting this job done.
So they still made you do things while you were at that camp?
Oh yes…oh yes….by all means.
Then from Camp Stoneman you traveled by train where were you discharged?
(26:27)
In Chicago.
In Chicago. How did you get home from Chicago then?
Well the train service worked pretty good so I came back on the train.

10

�After you got home do you remember what year that was? I assume that was
around 1945.
I think so. I probably have it written down in some of my books. I don’t have it in my
new one.
Well, there are a lot of stuff not in my noodle anymore either so I can understand
that.
Well, Elaine, I really thank you for your time. You have been just the sweetest lady
to talk to.
I have one other little incident that really pleased me.
Please tell us.
It was after I was out of the service and I went to Chicago shopping. Do you go to
Chicago at all?
Sure..sure.
Do you know State Street and where Marshall Field’s is?
Yes.
Well, I am crossing the street. I got right in the middle of the street where all the trains
were. And here is all the buses and stuff going by and I look at this fellow and I say,
“Hello Mike!” and he said, “Do you know me?” and I said yes, you’re Mike Tierney.
He said, “I don’t remember you.” Well, I had a change of clothing and stuff. I said,
“Well, you were one of my patients.”
So where was he one of your patients at? (28:32)
Battle Creek, but I was only there for a short while. Over there at Battle Creek. He was
real surprised too. But I was delighted to see him. Anyway he came back to Battle Creek
because he was waiting to come out. That was a pretty big place at that time. This was
out in the country. Not the one down town so we talked a little bit as we could right there
and then we went on our way. And I got to thinking afterwards that I had wished I had a
chance to talk to him because there wasn’t a chance, but I was really impressed.
No when you were in Battle Creek, were you in the service then?
No. That was afterwards. It is why I was in a change of clothing. How would he know
me..he wouldn’t….just wouldn’t.
Well, I don’t know, a nice looking woman like you were.

11

�Well, Elaine it has been a pleasure talking to you.
And thank you very much.

12

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                    <text>Paola Doyle - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek
October 9, 2018

1

Eric Gollannek: This is Eric Gollanneck and I'm here today with.
Paola Doyle: Paola Doyle.
EG: At the old school house in Douglas Michigan on October the 9th, 2018. This oral history is being
collected as part of the Stories of Summer project, which is supported in part by a grant from the
National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Program. Thanks for meeting with us today,
we're interested in learning more about your family history and your experiences of summer in
Saugatuck Douglas area. Can you repeat your name for us, your full name and spell it for us?
PD: My first name is Paola, P A O L A, last name Doyle, D O Y L E.
EG: That's great, yeah. And then uh, your maiden name?
PD: My maiden name is Vacco, V A C C O.
EG: That's great. Thank you so much. And is there any accents, uh, when spelling your name or special
characters or.
PD: No.
EG No. Okay, great. Thank you. Alright, so let's start out, tell us a little bit, Paola, about where you grew
up and about your family?
PD: Okay. Be happy to, um, was born and raised in the Chicago land area. Uh, originally, uh, from Oak
Park, Illinois. And then when I was about in fifth grade, my family moved to Oakbrook, Illinois.
EG: Okay.
PD: And that was very, spent most of my childhood living, um, and our summers were spent here in
Saugatuck.
EG: That's great. So you were born in Oak Park and, and, and grew up there. Tell us little bit about your,
your parents as well. Their names and maybe a little bit about them.
PD: Sure, uh Dad uh, his name was Aldo A L D O and my mom was Gloria and they as well, we're born
and raised in Chicago. Our, my Dad, his family is the ones that have brought us to this area and they
came, my dad grew up here in the summers from birth on.
EG: Oh, wow. Okay.
PG: And he often would tell us how he learned to swim in Lake Michigan.
EG: Yeah.
PD: As, as a toddler. So, uh, so we go back many, many years.

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EG: Absolutely. Yeah. And do you have a sense of what we were, your father was born, your mother and
father were born?
PD: Uh, I, my, my mom was born in 1927 and my dad was born in 1928 so, yeah!.
EG: Okay, same year as my grandfather as well. So, so he would have been coming here in the 1940s
then or in 1930’s?
PD: Correct. Yes. I, you know, I believe that the family cottage uh was built in 1931.
EG: Okay.
PD: I think that's, you know, if, if my memory serves me correct.
EG: Do you remember much of how they, the talk about how they came here? Did they come by boat by
steamer or did they drive?
PD: You know, they would drive and my dad and his siblings, uh, my grandfather would drive them up
because uh, my grandmother did not drive at that time. So my grandfather would drive them up and
they would spend the summer here and he, you know, ran a grocery store uh, slash liquor store business
in Chicago. So it was hard for him to be up here as much. So, uh, but the, my dad and his siblings and
mom would spend the entire summer here.
EG: Do you have any sense of what the timing of that was? I mean from Memorial Day to Labor Day, or,
or?
PD: Pretty much, yes, yes. When they would be out of school and so forth. And then I think as my dad
got older, sometimes they would have to help out at the store and things like that.
EG: Right.
PD: Um, but he, uh, you know, loved spending the summers here and, and I do have some letters
because in those days they didn't have the telephone in the cottage. And so I have letters that my
grandfather wrote to my dad telling him of his chores he needed to do up here to help out my
grandmother.
EG: That’s fascinating to have that record.
PD: I do, so it's fun to read those and you know, what was expected of them as a family and how lucky
they were to be able to spend their summers here and you know, play and you know, and just really
enjoy being here.
EG: Right, right, oh that’s, that’s wonderful. So a family tradition going back.
PD: Correct.
EG: For a generation at least, maybe two.

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PD: Yes. And then as we, as you know, as our parents got married, my dad and his siblings and had
children, which would be my cousins, it continued and my grandmother would really spend the entire
summer here from Memorial Day to Labor Day and us, which was nice for each family because each
family back then as growing up, we were given two weeks of the summer and with, with our
grandmother and our families and, and so, and a lot of times our families would overlap with our
cousins, you know, switching of, you know, the, the weekends, you know, when it was, it would be one
families turn to come and one family vacation was over. So we would usually spend a weekend with that
family. And, you know, and just, I remember my grandmother, every time we would leave, she at the
cottage door, she'd make the sign of the cross on all of us and say, God willing, we'll all be back next
year. You know, so that was really special. Uh, you know, we love being here, you know, those two
weeks. And, uh, you know, and then as time went on and as we got older, you know, everybody, you
know, my grandmother passed on, you know, things changed a little bit and that the cottage was still in
the family and shared for many, many years.
[00:05:54]
EG: Right, right.
PD: And uh, families would come up together and just a place for us all to gather.
EG: Right. Wow, yeah that’s amazing. Tell, tell, tell me a little bit about uh, the rest of your family now
that you have, you had siblings?
PD: I do. I have a sister and one brother. And so we to, you know, have many fond memories of being
here and with all of our cousins. And I, you know, oftentimes people say, well, your family is so unique.
But I think, I think that's unique to Saugatuck because, as we meet friends here and have become
friends with others, you know, a lot of them have the same history we do. You know, it starts out with
your grandparents coming here and it continues generation to generation.
EG: And this, this extended family, it sounds like what you're talking about exactly.
PD: Exactly, yes.
EG: Some Aunts and Uncles there.
PD: Yes.
EG: A closer family than most people might, that other people might think of.
PD: Exactly.
EG: Their second cousins, third cousins.
PD: Right. And even though a lot of my cousins, some of us have left the Chicago area, but everybody
seems to make it back here during the summer, you know, coming from California, Minnesota, New
York, Missouri, you know, wherever everybody makes it to Saugatuck every summer, which is really
unique, I think, you know, it's just, and uh, and I remember my grandmother always saying, I want this

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to be a place where you all come and be together as a family because your live's will get busy and take
you many different places. And I often think if she were here today, how proud she'd be of her family,
that all of us, her grandchildren, she had 17 grandchildren. How we are all very close. And we do spend a
majority of our time here, you know, especially in the summer and in a lot of us have bought our own
places over the years. So there's quite a few of us that, um, are starting to live your full time.
EG: Right.
PD: Which is really, unique.
EG: Yeah, and that’s even more of a draw to bring people back.
PD: Exactly.
EG: To come here and...
PD: Exactly, yes, you know.
EG: Yeah, for sure, fascinating. So tell me a little bit of kind of, that, that background is really wonderful.
Tell me a little bit about your first memories coming here, that you can recall.
PD: Okay. I remember always, you know, packing the car, you know, in Illinois and getting it all ready
and just as we would be driving up here singing songs in the car, playing you know, silly games in the car,
you know, looking at different license plates and things like that. And it was just really kind of traditional
what we would do in the car on the way up here.
EG: Yeah.
PD: Then when we'd get up here, you now, uh, my grandmother's cottage was on Park Street, you know,
not too far from Mount Baldy, but I'm not sure how many cottages down, but 10 or 12.
EG: Yeah, yeah.
PD: And the first thing all of us kids would do was want to run up Mount Baldy [Laughs] and it was just,
you know, run up the stairs and then of course not take the stairs back down, but go down the sand hill.
EG: Right.
PD: And roll, and, you know, so that was really what we would forward to doing. And then of course the
beach was our big highlight, you know.
EG: Sure.
PD: Just to go uh, and play in the sand. And I remember always going into the cottage basement to
want to see what inner tubes were there.
EG: Right.

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PD: And toys to play with at the beach, you know, as, as a little child know. And then, uh, we would go
to the beach as a family and spend most of the day, they're while my grandmother would remain back
at the cottage and be cooking.
EG: Right.
PD: And you know, we'd come home and she'd have pies baked and, you know, and every now and then
we would pull her out to the beach. You know, she, she, you know, wasn't wanting to go every day
because her enjoyment was being, you know, at the cottage doing things .
EG: Space to relax.
PD: Exactly, exactly. She had her little dog and she would wait for us to get home and, you know, and
then we'd have our, our dinners and all of that and you know, and just sit and reminisce and tell stories
and, you know, things like that. So those are my earliest memories. And then just remembering too, you
know, making our list in the car of everything we wanted to do.
EG: Yeah.
[00:10:00]
PD: And every year the list was pretty much the same, but it didn't matter. We still enjoy doing it. When
I was a child, they used to have those, um, you know, pad, paddle boats that you'd, you know, paddle.
So we would love to rent those and go down the river and of course go on, at that time it was called the
Island Queen. It's the Star of Saugatuck today.
EG: Right.
PD: But doing that as well, you know, I mean, and then there used to be a miniature golf place in town.
EG: Okay.
PD: Where wix, the Gazebo is now.
EG: Oh right, okay, sure.
PD: Yes, so we would go and do that and of course get ice cream. And then there was the candy store,
where Pumpernickel’s is and we would, always get to go pick penny candy out, you know, of the big
tubs. And that always, you know, so much fun, you know. But it was definitely family time and you
know, then, you know, our big night out was going to Holland to a movie, you know. [Laughs] So, you
know.
EG: So what, if I may ask, what, what year you were born in just in case?
PD: I was born in 1959.
EG: Okay.

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PD: So, yeah.
EG: So this would be the early 1960’s, mid 1960’s.
PD: Correct. Yes. And then yes. And then as a teenager it was fun because we always wanted to be here
with our cousins, you know.
EG: Yeah.
PD: That was when it, you know, uh, we started to meet some of the local kids [Laughs]
EG: You could go out.
PD: So we would go out, yes, you know? Exactly. You know, go to sunset, that was the big thing at night
to meet all our friends at sunset, at the beach.
EG: Okay.
PD: You know, and throw a football around and kind of hang out with, you know, our new friends. And
so that became, you know, really a highlight in our teenage years, you know. And uh, and at that point it
would be, we would always ask for parents, can, you know, these cousin stay with us and that, so
everybody started, you know, especially the girl cousins, there was a lot of us, you know, so a lot of fun
doing that, and going to town and you know, those kinds of things.
EG: Yeah. Oh, sounds wonderful. So I'm kind of picturing these two weeks that you have, that you were
here and...
PD: Yes.
EG: And enjoying all that.
PD: And, yes.
EG: And, and your grandparents cottage, the family cottage was that was that near, near Mont
Baldhead.
PD: Correct. Yes, and it's still on the family today. My Aunt Paula that, uh, is, uh, she's the only surviving
sibling you know.
EG: Right.
PD: Today.
EG: Yeah.

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PD: And uh, so she has that cottage, the family cottage and so, and a, so it's still enjoyed and we love to
go back there and you know, sit around with her and tell stories at the table the same big tables in there
and it is, it's really special.
EG: Yeah, absolutely. That sense of place, and those spaces too, that you can...
PD: Exactly.
EG: Still.
PD: Right.
EG: Still the same sense of feeling, right?
PD: Yes.
EG: Association.
PD: Yes.
EG: Wow.
PD: You know I remember, I remember the cottage has bunk beds and so a lot of times we would have
multiple families there at one time, you know, the cousins, we would try to cram everybody in and it'd
be nothing for like three or four people sleeping in a bunk bed, you know or we’d move the furniture
out of the cottage to lay down, you know.
EG: Yeah.
PD: Sleeping bags. Exactly. So I, you know, I think at one point we had 26 people staying overnight.
EG: Oh my gosh.
PD: And I mean it's not, you know, it's not a big [laughs] space for sure. How so a lot of lot of fun
memories like that, you know? So...
EG: Wow, that’s wonderful.
PD: Yeah.
EG: So, so being on that side of the river, then you could have full access to Mount Baldhead. You could
run down to the beach. Did you?
PD: Yes. We did.
EG: Explore in the woods. Did you get a chance to?

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PD: Oh, definitely. We would walk to the old harbor, which.
EG: Yeah.
PD: You know, my understanding was the original channel from what my dad would say. And it would be
fun, we would carve our initials in the trees and then the next year we would try and find that same
tree.
EG: Right.
PD: You know, and then write something else. And, uh, and then of course we did that with our own
children. Once I had my kids, you know, we'd get big walking sticks and walk through there and take our
dogs and that. So that's tradition as well, you know, and uh, and then I'm, you know, way, and, I am
assuming this was in the 70s, but we're, the ferry is, um, you know, not town side but the other side.
EG: Yeah.
PD: There used to be a store there and we'd call it the Ferry store.
EG: Yeah.
PD: And I'm not sure if that was the real name of it or not.
EG: Yeah.
PD: But we would love to go down there because they would have like tea cups and they would sell kind
of knickknacks, souvenir-y type stuff, you know. But um, and then I remember it turning into a pizza...
EG: Okay.
PD: Uh, restaurant at one point and they would deliver pizza by boat. And I remember we thought that
was so cool.
EG: Yeah.
PD: Because we would just a pizza from the cottage because they could run it down [laughs] the river!
Right, exactly! And then, you know, so that was there for a few years and then...
[00:15:00]
EG: Yeah.
PD: You know, and now it's not there at all and there's..
EG: Yeah.

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PD: You know, but I do remember we would love to go to the ferry store. You know, how to look at all
the tea cups and..
EG: Right.
PD: You know, knickknacks that they would have in there.
EG: Did you ride the, did you ride the chain ferry?
PD: Yes.
EG: Frequently?
PD: All the time.
EG: As well to get back to town? Yeah?
PD: We did, we did.
EG: On a daily basis?
PD: Because our parents would, you know, they'd give us a little money to go to town to buy our ice
cream cone.
EG: Yeah.
PD: You know, so we would do that. And I think one of the memories I really have is we would walk to
the Oval Beach a lot.
EG: Yeah.
PD: Because we would want to get there. This is more as teenagers, but we'd want to get there like 10 in
the morning, you know.
EG: Get a good spot.
PD: Yeah, get a good spot, and you know, sun tanning was important. [Laughs] You know and so, no and
it was funny in our parents wouldn’t want to come until like 2 in the afternoon, you know? And uh, so
they would say just go, just go, you know. And so we would walk, I just remember walking and cars, you
know, every car would like stop and say, you know, would you girls like a ride?
EG: Yeah.
PD: You know, and you know, and it was so sincere.
EG: Yeah.

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PD: And you know when you'd get in and people just, you know, and I think of how we are so cautious
today.
EG: Right.
PD: You now, but I, I just think how simple it was back then. Although, you know, if I see people walking,
I will ask them if they need a ride, you know.
EG: Right, yeah.
PD: And I think, and I still see that friendliness today here in the town. I really do. And so I remember
doing that and that, and running in the dunes of course, and walking to the lighthouse and...
EG: Right.
PD: And then I remember we thought that the Beach House, um, I think it was when it was privately
owned and, uh, they had the best hamburgers, you know.
EG: Yeah. [Laughs]
PD: We couldn't wait to have like an Oval Beach hamburger [Laughs] You know so, it was like, that was
our big treat, you know?
EG: Yeah.
PD: So, I remember doing that and, but we did, we would go on lots of walks through the woods and
down the road. Um, and, uh, you know, we would just in the fall we would collect acorns. So yeah, I
remember doing that, and then you know, we would paint rocks, you know. Collect rocks, and, you
know, my grandmother would paint them and lining them all up outside in the back of the cottage. She
was big into feeding the birds. So we would in the morning go out in the back and the woods and you
know.
EG: Right.
PD: Do all of that.
EG: Yeah.
PD: So a lot of good memories.
EG: Oh that’s wonderful. Did you typically walk more often than not, walk down the road to go to Oval
Beach or?
PD: Oh, yes.
EG: Or go over the dunes sometimes?

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PD: Sometimes we'd climb Mt. Baldy and go that way.
EG: Is tough when you’re carrying gear.
PD: Exactly. You know, but it's funny, I don't remember as a child or even my parents, you know, having
all the beach gear that we have today, you know.
EG: Right.
PD: They brought a blanket.
EG: Yeah.
PD: And maybe a little cooler.
EG: Right.
PD: But you know, today it's like we have the umbrellas and the chairs...
EG: Righ.
PD: …and the little tables and...
EG: Yeah.
PD: You know, they didn't have all that lets you are just your blanket and...
EG: Right.
PD: That was pretty much it.
EG: Simple. Simple times, right there there...
PD: Exactly!.
EG: That you were uh, doing new things.
PD: Exactly.
EG: So less gear, but you were able to just kind of have that quieter space out there. Did you ever, radio,
was music at the beach, or?
PD: We did, we would bring our, uh, radio and you know, play, you know, play our tunes.
EG: Yeah.

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PD: And things like that. And uh, and there were times we would even like start dancing on the beach.
And, you know, I remember when the movie grease came out and you know, the soundtrack.
EG: Yeah, yeah.
PD: That was a big thing you know, that was, you know, we would all gather on the beach and do our
thing and you know, we would make pyramids and you know, and, and you could rent the little
surfboards at the beach and those big tire, inner tubes, you know.
EG: Right.
PD: So, I remember doing that, you know, and uh, it just, you know, it was, you know it was just fun. You
know, like we were, we would be outside from morning you know, to night, go home and, you know, I'm
talking more as our teenage years and go home and have our family dinner. And then the girls, we
would love to go to town. We would do the same thing every night. You know, walk around town.
EG: Yeah.
PD: And then we would get our ice cream and sit on the corner by the drug store and we would giggle
and you know, and it was just, it was just really old fashion fun. And, which is really what we've instilled
in our own children. You know, coming up here now that we have kids and...
EG: Yeah. How did that, how did that work? When you would go to Saugatuck, go to town with the chain
ferry? How late did that run? Or did you have to?
PD: You know, it only would run until dusk.
EG: Okay.
PD: You know, so if we were there later.
EG: Yeah.
PD: You know, someone would pick us up.
EG: Okay, you could call them or something?
PD: You know, my dad or, yes. Of course we didn't have cell phones back...
EG: Yeah.
PD: …then, you know, but or we'd have a set time, you know, my dad would say, okay, and we always, it
was always in front of the drug store. That was our...
EG: Okay.
PD: You know, we'll pick you up at the drugstore, you know, pick you up at the drugstore, you know.

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EG: Yeah. You had to do some more planning than we do today where we just leave things wide open.
[00:19:58:00]
PD: Exactly, exactly. You know, you can just text, hey I’m here. But no, back then it was, you had to have
a plan, you know, so we.
EG: Do you remember people you met? I mean, especially as you got more into the, you know, preteen
or teenage years that you met? Did you, where were they from? Where, was it people from town? Was
it from the area, from all over? Did anything stand out?
PG: Well we knew some, families, you know, people that had colleges like us down the road.
RG: Yeah.
PD: And so we would become friendly, you know, so some of them were Chicago people that were also
from Chicago.
EG: Yeah.
PD: But ironically it was, it's funny because now that we have our own children, when our kids would
meet the kids up here and they would actually be hanging out with, you know, that generation, third
generation of people that we hung out with, you know?
EG: Okay, yeah, yeah.
PD: So it's kind of passed down, you know. Um, so that's really neat. So some, a lot of people like that.
EG: Yeah.
PD: Just other cottage owners we've um, become friendly with over the years and remain friends. And
then we didn't meet some local you know, kids and I think we mostly met them at the beach because
I'm not, you know if my memory serves me right. Just talking, you know, boys walking up to us at the
beach.
EG: Right.
PD: And sitting down and [laughs] you know, that kind of thing.
EG: Right.
PD: So then we would kind of, you know, hang out with them. And then, like I said, the big thing was to
meet at sunset, you know.
EG: Yeah.

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PD: You know, we would meet and then figure out what we're doing, whether we're having a bonfire on
the beach there at night somewhere, you know, and uh, that kind of thing. We would do that as well.
And uh, or gone to town and walk around. And then of course as we got older, older and we could get
into like the Crow bar, you know. [Laughs]
EG: Yeah.
PD: We would do that a little bit, you know. So that was more of like in our twenties, you know.
EG: Okay.
PD: Early twenties or...
EG: So this would’ve been...
PD: I think it was 18 though when we were...
EG: Okay.
PD: To get in.
EG: Okay.
PD: I think that, you know.
EG: So this would have been in the, like the late 70’s by that point, or? Am, I, is my math wrong?
PD: Um, yeah, early 80’s, early 80’s. Yes, because I want to say was just starting college and...
EG: Okay.
PD: …You know, that kind of thing, so.
EG: Yeah.
PD: Um, so that was, you know, and then, uh, that was our big thing just, you know, at that point then
we all want to be up here with our cousins.
EG: Yeah.
PD: You know, that kind of thing.
EG: A lot of fun.
PD: And then, exactly. So we would do that and plan a weekend here or there in the fall. Like you know,
we would, and then our parents would start letting us come up by ourselves. So that was like huge.
[Laughs] You know?

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EG: Right, right.
PD: But we were a little bit older then.
EG: A big game changer for sure.
PD: Exactly. Exactly.
EG: Do you remember much being in that area where your family cottage located in the old harbor and
that, did you have any interaction with folks from oxbow from the art school or, or explore that property
at all? Do you, any, any memories of that?
PD: You know what, we would walk down there and things like that.
EG: Yeah.
PD: Um, I remember my dad telling stories about them as children being involved down there, you
know.
EG: Okay. Alright, yeah.
PD: And their neighbor next door was very involved in Oxbow.
EG: Okay.
PD: And I remember her talking about classes and...
EG: Okay.
PD: … things like that they would do. Um, and then our children have taken classes down there.
EG: Okay.
PD: You know, so, um, I very much support the Oxbow program, I think it's a great thing. And, but um,
so yes, go to some of the things that they sponsor, but I personally didn't take any classes there myself.
EG: Right, yeah.
PD: But you know, our kids have, my kids have, you know, done...
EG: Right.
PD: …Some of art classes and things like that, you know.
EG: But don’t, don't remember much about one, one way or another about, you know, is this kind of
mysterious place or, or...

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PD: Or sneaking down there at night.
EG: There’s some [inaudible] the ferry store is a place that I know...
PD: Yes.
EG: …people from Oxbow would.
PD: I remember seeing a lot of the Oxbow students walking down the road..
EG: Yeah.
PD: Like, walking to and from, past our cottage.
EG: Right.
PD: I would remember that, and I do remember we would try and go down there at night and scare,
we’d scare, we'd scare ourselves. So I don't even think it was that scary [laughing] but we would be like,
you know, down there late at night, you know. So I remember doing that kind of thing, you know? But
yeah, so and uh, and uh, in fact I walked down there last winter uh, with Renee, my cousin.
EG: Yeah.
PD: We went to a talk down there, it was like in February and it brought back a lot of memories, you
know [laughs] We were trucking through the snow and, [laughs] you know, parking at a certain spot
and...
EG: Yeah.
PD: …Walking down. But, and I can remember the Oxbow students being at the Oval Beach doing their
painting.
EG: Oh, okay, yes!.
PD: You know, sitting out in the, you know, out in the dunes. And we would take walks on the beach and
you would see them doing their, you know, landscapes and their seascapes, pictures and things like that.
And sometimes they would talk to us and ask us to pose for certain things, you know...
EG: Wow!.
PD: …in their pictures… .
EG: Yeah, yeah.
PD: So I'm not famous, I don't think it ever [laughs] I don't think they ever went anywhere. But, but I do
remember that, you know, I do remember seeing a lot of them.

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[00:25:02]
EG: That would leave an impression for sure.
PD: Exactly, exactly. I do remember seeing that.
EG: Yeah, did you ever spend any time in Douglas or do you have any memories of coming to Douglas?
PD: You know.
EG: Those years.
PD: I do remember coming with my dad because I believe there was a little old, like a newspaper stand.
EG: Okay.
PD: Or a store and they had donuts, and I remember we would come every day because he went by his
newspaper and I don't remember exactly where it was. I mean, I know it was down the main strip. But
we would then, we would get donuts and his newspaper. So I do remember doing that. You know, so
those are my memories of Douglas. You know, we, um, you know, I don't remember it having the stores
and it has today.
EG: Right.
PD: Um, but I do remember that store, you know, we would come down.
EG: Yeah, yeah.
PD: You know, so, yeah, yeah. And you know, fishing, you know, we would go and fish, you know,
outside, down by the river, by the cottage. We had to like a, you know, a little dock there. So we would
go and do that and try and catch fish, [laughs] you know, so we, you know, we do those things, and like I
said, a lot of hiking in the woods, and looking for treasures and...
EG: Right.
PD: You know, we would try and find [Laughs]
EG: Did, did you ever explore the Singapore site? Would that have been probably too...
PD: I don't remember.
EG: More closed off by that point. [Inaudible]
PD: Yeah, I don't remember doing that.
EG: Yeah.

�Paola Doyle - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek
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18

PD: I don't, I remember my parents talking at great length about the pavilion and things they did, you
know, when there, through, in their early marriage of their dances they would go to.
EG: Yeah.
PD: I remember them talking a lot about that, you know, I do remember we would spend a lot of time
at, Goshorn Lake.
EG: Okay.
PD: And one of the reasons we liked to go there is because the water was always warmer than Lake
Michigan. So, [laughs] so I do, we, you know, and that was like a really big treat for us to go there. You
know, when we were up here, we would maybe get to go two or three times during our two weeks that
we were here.
EG: Yeah.
PD: We would love running up the sand hill, it was huge hill. And then in those days you could actually
see the dune rides going back there.
EG: Okay, yeah.
PD: We remember hearing all the people screaming, you know...
EG: Yeah.
PD: …As you're going down and so would climb the hill to try and watch that.
EG: Right.
PD: Um, and I remember we liked Goshorn because they had a slide and they had diving boards, and
you could do all of that. And of course I do remember the stories about it supposedly was a bottomless
lake, you know.
EG: Oh wow.
PD: And people would, you know, my dad, you know, and my brother was very adventurousome and he
would want to try and swim all the way across. And my dad would say, no you can't because we get
tired or you get a cramp, you know. So I remember my dad letting him do it, but my dad would go along
like on a surfboard, you know.
EG: Yeah.
PD: Or something in case he would get tired, you know.
EG: Right.

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PD: So I remember um, him doing that. But we did, we always liked to go there because it was warm,
the water was warm.
EG: Right.
PD: And we could swim in that water.
EG: Yeah, sure.
PD: And it wasn't as choppy. [laughs] .
EG: Share, share a little bit, we talked about your siblings earlier, but just their names and relative ages,
relative to you.
PD: Sure, sure. Uh, my sister, uh, is Glory Ann, and she is eight years older than I am.
EG: Okay, yeah.
PD: And then my brother is Jim and he is four years older than I am.
EG: Okay, alright.
PD: So, and uh, so it was fun. So I was always the little sister that tagged along, you know, and my sister
was interesting because she grew up in the 60s.
EG: Yeah.
PD: You know, was her era, and, and actually I was talking to her about this this weekend because I was
with her and she remembers when there was a big rock concert up here and it was held at Goshorn
Lake.
EG: Right, yeah, yeah. Did she go to that?
PD: She did.
EG: Okay.
PD: She did.
EG: Yeah.
PD: And what I, what I remember is just the massive amount of people that infiltrated the town and
have people were sleeping everywhere.
EG: Yeah.

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20

PD: Even when we woke up in the morning at our cottage door, people like sleeping on our front lawn
area, you know there was just...
EG: Wow. Which is a long ways from Goshorn Lake.
PD: …Exactly.
EG: Yeah.
PD: Exactly. I mean they were just all over Park Street. I mean, sleeping on people's grass. I mean it was
crazy. You know, that's what I remember.
EG: Yeah.
PD: So she remembers that and she remembers meeting, I don't know if they were keeping track of all
the guys they met her and her girlfriend [laughs] it was something like 83 or something. [Laughs] And so,
so her memories were kind of fun and you know, and she was saying how her and her girlfriend
accepted like three or four different dates with different guys for the same night because they can't
remember which one they really wanted to go out with so...
EG: Right.
PD: They would hide in the bedroom at the cottage and give my grandmother a signal. You know, when
the guys would come up to the door...
EG: Right.
[00:30:03]
PD: …And they’d go, no that’s, you know...
EG: Yeah.
PD: Because our cottage was very open so you could see over and like, no that's not the one I want.
EG: Send him away.
PD: Send him away. And then another group came and they're like, no. But my grandmother liked them.
She started talking to them. So she invited them in for pie. And so [Laughs] my sister goes, I remember
being stuck in the bedroom with her friend.
EG: Yeah.
PD: Because her grandma was having these boys have pie and you know. [Laughs]
EG: Right.

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PD: And then the ones that they wanted to go out with came, but you know, you could go out because
they were hiding in the bedroom. [Laughs] .
EG: Oh!.
PD: You know, so, so lots of you know, fun stories like that. So she has a lot of stories to that nature, you
know.
EG: Right.
PD: But she said it was a crazy time, you know, and how the town. And then she said the town kind of,
you know, went back to...
EG: Became quieter.
PG: …Became quieter, going back to more a family, you know.
EG: Yeah.
PD: But she remembers it being, you know, um, just crazy up here, you know, with that rock concert and
being there, you know, and how many people were in the town and you know, so when she said they
had like makeshift jails in the town, you know, for crowd control and things like that.
EG: Right.
PD: So, yeah. So, I don't remember all that but.
EG: Do you remember much of, you mentioned your grandmother and serving pie to these boys and
that, uh you remember your parent’s reaction or other family reaction to, to all of this going on? You
know, this kind of?
PD: You know what they were to what the, when the big crowds for here you mean?
EG: Yeah, yeah. Just the general shenanigans and, and...
PD: Yeah, I remember my dad being very concerned and I remember him going out the next morning
and looking at all these people sleeping, you know, [laughs] and passed out on our lawn.
EG: Yeah.
PD: And he just said, first he asked if they were all okay and you know.
EG: Yeah.
PD: And so forth and then they said, I think it's time you move on. [Laughs] So that was kind of his nice
way of saying like, you can leave now.

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EG: Yeah.
PD: You shouldn't be here, and is private property kind of thing. But you know, first he asked if they
were all okay or if they need anything, you know. And uh, you know things like that, but uh.
EG: Sounds, sounds like pretty accepting attitude.
PD: Yes, you know.
EG: High level of tolerance.
PD: As long as it wasn't his kids, [laughs] my dad was a little over protective, you know, so.
EG: Did your, did your sister get in any trouble or was there any reaction to this, you now, her being at
the festival?
PD: You know, she said my dad like picked her up or something?
EG: Okay.
PD: So they can go, but he was, he would drive and pick them up, you know.
EG: Okay.
PD: Like he didn't let them drive. But she said there was so many cars and things that it was just kind of
crazy, you know, so.
EG: Yeah.
PD: And uh, because I think she was probably, she was in college then because I was probably junior
high, I assume.
EG: Okay.
PD: So she must, she was you know, college age, but…
EG: Right.
PD: Yes, so, uh, you know, he kept close tabs [Laughs]
EG: Right.
PD: And uh, she had a curfew, you know, [laughs] so, but um, so lot of good memories like that. A lot of
memories of playing games at the cottage. We would just, you know, sit and play board games and
cards and things like that, you know, and uh, you know, or we'd be up here and you know, we'd call
another relative in Chicago. My Dad would say, why don't you come up, you know, and they'd get in the
car and they wouldn't think twice about, you know, making the drive up…

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EG: Yeah.
PD: And we’d all, you know, we'd be so excited our cousins are coming, and you know, what kind of
thing.
EG: Yeah. That’s neat.
PD: So, it was, it was really, oh and then one of our big treats was to go to the drug store for, you know,
sit at the soda fountain. That was fun. One year we had a water fight there all the cousins started, you
know, with our straws, kind of…
EG: Oh boy.
PD: Spritzing water at one another, and before you knew it, glasses of water being thrown in. The, the
lady that ran the Soda Fountain, all she did at that point was walk out and she gave everybody mops and
she said, your kids could clean it all up now. [Laughs] We’re like, we’ll be glad to. [Laughs] So, yeah , you
know, so it was kind of a fun story. She was a good sport about it, because you know, it's kind of started
and then one siblings like here take this and you know, and then before you knew it, that was a big
water fight at the soda fountain.
EG: Wow.
PD: Yeah, you know all in good fun. But yeah, not thinking about the mess we were making.
EG: Right.
PD: You know, so she was very nice. She just now you can all clean it up. [Laughs]
EG: She handled it well.
PD: She did. She did. She was a good sport, you know.
EG: Yeah. Any other, any other moments, you know, mayhem or you know, shenanigans that you all got
into, or saw other people get into? In town or at the beach, or you around? That you want, that you're
willing to share.
PD: [laughs] Right, right. You know, I think, like I said, I think our, you know, our, our, the memories that
we have is just really being together as a family…
EG: Yeah.
PD: And just sharing that time. In fact, it was, I think it was three years ago, four years ago, we just
celebrated 100 years of our family coming up to Saugatuck. So we had a big family reunion. That was
really, really special, and everybody wrote down their memories in a book and one of the relatives put
the book together, I should’ve, I should have brought it to show you. But, so that was really neat, you
know, and, and really most of, when you read the memories of all of our family, it is just about all being
together and you know, singing songs and playing games and going on walks and you know, just being

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together and cooking, you know, barbecuing out in the back of the cottage and you and everybody
being out there and going for ice cream. That was our big thing, you know, um, like, you know, doing
things in the river, you know, um, there was a big, somebody had a rope swing down on Park Street.
[Laughs] So I can remember we would all like to go on this rope swing over the river and then fall into
the river. You know?
[00:36:00]
EG: Yeah.
PD: So that was kind of neat, and then, that got taken down. But, that was fun. Or swinging from the
vines, you know, in the woods.
EG: Did, did you all spend time in the Kalamazoo River at all? Or, not, not really?
PD: We would swim in it, yeah.
EG: A little bit.
PD: Yeah, we did. We would, you know, um, you know where we would row? We had a little row boat
we'd row across to town. You know, that was like a big thing to do, you know. Um, but yes, we would,
we would, uh, you know, swim a little bit in the river and, uh, in front of the cottage. I wouldn't do it
today, but [Laughs] you know, back then. So we did, uh, you know, and I don't think there was as much
boat traffic back then, not of course as today.
EG: Okay, okay. Yeah.
PD: Yeah, that's a little bit, definitely more built up. Remember loving the thunder storms up here,
especially in the cottage. You could hear the rain on the roof, and you know, we would get flashlights
and you know, it just kind of cuddle up under blankets and listening to the acorns fall out on the roof
and you know, some really good lightning storms, you know, we would really enjoy, you know, love that
as well. You know, and uh, so a lot of, um, you know, like I said, it was just a lot of really quality family
time spent together. And just a place where we would all gather and share those times together. And I
know that's what we, my husband and I and my siblings wanted for our children to grow up here in the
summers as well and you know, and, and they have. So it's really fun to see what they've done. You
know, my girls are in their early twenties now, but they participated in the sailing program down at the
little yacht club and made their, so they called them their summer friends. So they would look forward
to coming up here every summer and doing that and doing pretty much the same thing.
EG: Yeah.
PD: Going to beach and going to town, riding around, checking everything out. And even today when
they come up, mom, let's just drive around town, you know, they like to just, you know, circle around.
We do that and they have their friends up here now and then…
EG: Yeah.

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PD: In their teenage years they got part time jobs up here.
EG: Okay. Yeah. Tell us, tell us a little bit about your, your, I guess you, you said you went off to college
as well. Where did you go to school?
PD: I did. I went to Elmhurst College.
EG: Okay, yeah.
PD: Became a teacher, so…
EG: Wonderful.
PD: Taught for many years and I'm actually uh, doing some subbing up here.
EG: Oh, great. [Laughs]
PD: Which is fun, so, its filling.
EG: Yeah.
PD: I'm enjoying that. And uh, and uh, so yeah. So my job allowed me to be here in the summer…
EG: Right, because you had the summer time off.
PD: …Because I had my summers off! I know.
EG: Yeah.
PD: In fact, my oldest daughter, that's why she picked teaching…
EG: Okay.
PD: Because she was like, then I could be a Saugatuck all summer! Like, there you go!
EG: Tell us a bit about your, uh, your, your kids.
PD: Sure. I have two daughters.
EG: Yeah.
PD: Olivia and Nina.
EG: Yeah.
PD: And, uh, we bought, my husband and I bought our own place back in 2002.

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EG: Okay.
PD: And which was wonderful because we would spend our summers here. My husband would
commute back and forth. Uh, he usually would try and come up on a Thursday night and drive right into
Chicago…
EG: Yeah.
PD: …Monday morning before work.
EG: Yeah.
PD: And, uh, the girls and I would spend, you know, all summer here, pretty much, you know, go back a
few times here and there. But I think because they started growing up here in the summer when they
were, you know, like, uh, I think Olivia was in second grade and Nina was in kindergarten, that they were
able to establish friends up here and things like that. And they would participate, in like I said, in the
little sailing program, they would take art lessons, did library programs. So it really became their
summer, you know, their summer friends and then their friends back home and then as they got older
we would allow them to bring friends up and things like that. And so that was fun for them. And so
they've always loved coming up here and they too are with all my cousin's children, because that's the
next generation. And they did the same things we did have bonfires on the beach and you know, and
hang out and go out for boat rides and, and do all the same things that we did and play the games and
things like that. So it's really nice and they still come up frequently today and I'd love to see all their
friends. And you know, everybody like, like us, their friends all come back here every summer, you
know, the ones that are all living elsewhere now. And some of them were local families and some were
families like them. And we had introduced the area to some of our close friends and they now too and
places here. So it’s kind of like everybody falls in love with that. You know, it's, it's just a really great
place and I look forward to when I have grandchildren so I can pass it on to them as well. Keep it going.
[Laughs]
[00:40:57]
EG: Absolutely.
PD: Definitely. Definitely.
EG: For sure. So tell us, kind of looking back, you've got a multigenerational perspective. Uh, what are
some things that you, you know, kind of looking at the community, things that have changed, things that
have remained the same about the area.
PD: You know what? I think the things that I think that have stayed the same, at least for me, is when I
come here and now that I'm living here full time, I just feel so totally safe here. And I just feel that it is
the friendliness of everybody. You know, people you don't even know, say hi to you, you know, walking
down the street or if you're sitting in a restaurant, and I think that's what makes this town so unique is
just the, how everybody reaches out. And for being a small town, you know, I do find, you know,
everybody, [pause] you know, is willing to share information and just share being together, sharing their
togetherness with each other. And, um, I find that really unique. You know, the people, you know, really

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27

care. I love that you can walk down the street and not everybody's like looking at their cell phone. You
know, I mean, um, and you know, and I love going to the post office to get my mail. You know? You see
people in there with their dogs, [laughs] you know, and, and that, so I think that in itself is very unique
and the charm that the town offers, you know, and its uniqueness and not having chain restaurants on
every corner and things like that. I think the quaintness of it, um, I'd like the artistic aspect of the town,
you know, um, I think that's really unique and special. Um, and I, I think when I was growing up, a little
bit of that was there, I think it's always been there, the art side of it, you know, with Oxbow and I
remember Button’s Gallery being here forever. I remember when it was down on Center Street towards
the Lake, you know, so I remember, but I don't remember there being as many as there are today. So I
think it's been really nice to see how it's grown in the arts and what the SCA offers. You know, what we
can pass on to, you know, like my kids were able to participate in a lot of the programs offered you
know, by the SCA and things like that. Um, you know, I don't remember [pause] is it, again, I wasn't here
all summer as a child, but I don't remember taking part in a lot of the things that my kids have, you
know, the library programs and things like that. So…
EG: More structured activities. Or more opportunities?
PD: Sure. Right, I think it offers a lot for them to explore and, and, uh, my kids were always outside
growing up, you know, I mean, they would set up a lemonade stand at the end of our driveway. [Laughs]
I mean, just, they really, they played outside and compared to when they would be back in Chicago, you
know, it was just, I just think it's very unique in that sense, you know? Um, and that's what I love about
it. You know, I just love the coziness of it. And, and plus that everything's relatively so close and it's just
going for walks. You know, my husband and I do that a lot now. We, you know, after dinner, we’ll either
walk on the beach or we'll walk to downtown Douglas, you know, to get our mail, you know, things like
that, and that makes it unique. So I, um, you know, um, but I don't think a whole lot to changed too
much. I mean, you know, some things have come and gone, you know. Um, but I like the fact the music
in the park, you know, we, that’s our, we love to do that on Wednesday nights and go and sit and you
know, just the fellowship that the town brings. I think they do a great job of that.
EG: Yeah.
PD: So I do, I enjoy that.
EG: Yeah. That's wonderful.
PD: Yeah.
EG: So, uh, a question we’ve asked everyone doing these interviews, remembering that we're saving
these interviews that someone may be listening to this recording 50 or more years from now, what
would you like them most to know about your life and about the community right now?
PD: I guess, thinking back, I, and I do, I, I feel so truly blessed to have this part of my life because I think
it really takes you to a place where, like I said, you feel safe but you also feel so content. And I think the
happiness that it brings, it's like as soon as I would pull off the exit and to get here, you know, you're just
feeling that, like that special feeling that you get when you arrive here. And, um, the uniqueness. And I
just think that the towns full of love, I really do. You know? And I think that it's a happy place and I think
everybody's, always, generally happy, no matter, you know, you're walking down the street, whether

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28

you see people eating ice cream cone and even people that are working, you know, the day to day
working, you know, I can pull in somewhere and see, you know, uh, somebody, you know, working on
an electric line, you know, they're like, hey, how you doing? [Laughs] You know? I mean, I just feel it. It's
just such a friendly, welcoming area. And that's what I really love about it.
EG: Yeah.
PD: I really do.
EG: Great testimonial for the, for the character of the place. Anything else that you'd like to share that I
haven't asked you about?
PD: You know Eric? I think, you know, I, I can't think of anything other than just that. Like I said, I'm feel
very blessed that I have had my childhood spent here and that my children and I hope my grandchildren
and I hope it continues on and just because I think it is such a wonderful place and the feeling that it
gives everybody and I, it's, it's very hard to describe unless you experience it. I think, you know, it really
is. And, and I know we've been friends that we have here for the first time, they're like, wow, you know,
and, and it's not even that we push it on people, it's just they, you know, um, just feel that themselves.
So, you know, when they walk down the street and you know, that just the presence of the whole area,
you know, so. I do, I think it's just a charming, charming place and just a wonderful place to be.
EG: Well, that's great. Well, thank you so much Paola…
PD: Thank you.
EG: …for your time, and for sharing your stories and memories with us. Uh, and with that…
PD: Thank you. A pleasure.
EG: Yeah, that will conclude our interview today.
[00:47:54]

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                    <text>Paola Onesto – Interviewed by David Geen and Renee Zita
June 6 2018

1

Paola Onesto: Yeah, hi Renee. Uh, I, uh, you said you’d call back in about half hour.
Renee Zita: Oh! I’m sorry, okay well I have, is it good right now?
Paola Onesto: Yeah, I can talk with you at this time.
RZ: Okay, this, I have um, David Geen on the line as well, he’s the gentleman who’s going to ask you
some questions…
PO: Okay.
RZ: …About Saugatuck.
PO: What is his name?
RZ: David.
David Geen: David, David Geen.
PO: Gene? How do I spell it?
DG: Geen. G E E N.
PO: G E E N, okay. David Geen.
DG: That’s right and I’m here, I’m here with you, Paola Onesto?
PO: That is correct.
DG: Okay, and you’re on the phone here from the, from the old schoolhouse in Douglas and today is
June 6th 2018, and this oral, this oral, I have to read this for us, this oral history is being collected as part
of the Stories of Summer project which is supported in part by a grant from the National Endowment for
Humanities Common Heritage Program. So, I’m so glad to talk with you today, Renee told me that we,
we had to have you as part of our program. So, so, I’m just interested to learn more about your family
history and your experiences of summer here in the Saugatuck and Douglas area. So, but first I want you
to tell me, how do you spell your last name?
PO: My last name is spelled O N E S T O.
DG: Okay.
PO: First name is, my first name I spell P A O L A but I pronounce it Paula.
DG: Okay. Like the Italian way, Paola?

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June 6 2018

2

PO: That’s right.
DG: That’s right.
PO: Well you know the era in which I as born, um, I have to assume that ethnicity was not something
that wanted to be encouraged, uh, everybody had to become Americanized.
DG: Hm, interesting.
PO: And uh, so my mother gave me the Italian spelling, but she gave me the English pronunciation.
DG: Okay, so your mother, your mother was? [Pause] Who was your mother?
PO: Oh! [Laughs] Alright, my mother and father uh, my mother’s name is uh, Vacco V a c c o.
DG: Mhm.
PO: First name is Irene, I R E N E.
DG: [Speaking over PO] Oh yeah. Okay.
PO: and my father’s first name was James.
DG: Okay.
PO: We called him, he was called Jim.
DG: So, did you grow up in Chicago?
PO: Oh yeah, on the west side of Chicago in the Austen area.
DG: Okay, and you’d come to Saugatuck in the summer?
PO: Yes we did. Mhm, ever summer.
DG: When did you start coming? Do you remember what year sort of that was?
PO: Well, I’ll give you some of the history that I am aware of, uh, I know that my parents had come up
here probably in the late 1920’s early 1930’s.
DG: Wow.
PO: and uh, they, my mother and father and my mother’s sister Anna, and her husband John decided
they wanted to buy a piece, they wanted to uh, buy a piece of property and come up there for the
summers and uh, so she, my mother had told me, now this is oral history.

�Paola Onesto – Interviewed by David Geen and Renee Zita
June 6 2018

3

DG: Yep.
PO: Obviously. Uh, and my mother had told me that uh, they bought a home on the, uh, [inaudible] side
of the, of Saugatuck. On the western shore.
DG: Yes.
PO: And, and, um, she said that she, they had a small it was a small cottage um, and she said it was filthy
and she and her sister worked a good part of the summer trying to get the place just habitable. In any
event, while they working on it a lady approached them, a woman came down and she said her name
was Hannah Mueller.
DG: Okay.
PO: She’s important because she owned a lot of property here at Saugatuck, and she said “Instead of
trying to fix that place up”, she said “Why don’t you buy your own property and then build a place that
you would like?”
DG: Okay.
PO: And that’s exactly what they did do. They bought the location where our cottage is now situated
and uh, they had the cottage built. Now I do know that the cottage was built in 1931.
DG: 1931, was the cottage.
PO: Yes.
RZ: [Whispering] What’s the address?
DG: What’s the, do you remember the address of that cottage?
PO: At that time?
DG: Yeah.
PO: Uh, I don’t even think they had addresses.
DG: But it was on Park Street.
RZ: What is the address?
[00:05:00]
PO: It was, it was, it had several different names. One time it was Ferry Street, one time it was Park
Street, so uh, what we, since we never got mail delivered there we always went to the Post Office to get

�Paola Onesto – Interviewed by David Geen and Renee Zita
June 6 2018

4

our mail, and my mother I remember we had a Post Office Box, and we would get the mail, you’d have
to pay for it for the season of course, and we would get, go there to pick up our mail and eventually uh,
we didn’t even bother doing that because we’re no longer getting a lot of mail, and we would go directly
to the window and we’d ask for, if there was any named, if there was any mail for the Vacco’s, that was,
and I was one of the kids that had to do that.
RZ: Well what’s the address now, Aunt Paola?
PO: Uh, 856.
RZ: 856, Okay.
PO: Park.
DG: Okay, so in the ‘20s and 30s would your parents drive around from Chicago? They drove up here?
PO: They were driven up here. My, neither of my parent drove, they didn’t, they never knew how to
drive a car. They were always driven up here.
DG: [Speaking over PO] So they had a driver.
PO: I’m sorry?
DG: They had a driver.
PO: Right. We’d always have someone drive us up, and it usually was a relative.
DG: Okay. How did, do you know how they found to come to Saugatuck?
PO: That I can’t be sure of, I, I do know a couple of names uh, but I’m not, I’m not really sure how they
were introduced to the area.
RZ: I thought it was through Uncle Aldo’s um, symphony friend?
PO: Yeah, his name was Robert Mcdolum, McDonald, Robert McDonald was a concert pianist, my uncle
was a concert violinist and uh, through them, my uncle, uh, was the one that came up and he probably
had my parents come as well as his other sister, Anna and uh, um, but see that is a history I really really
do not know anything about. But I do, I have some pictures, oh god where are they, uh, I have some
pictures of them sitting on the um, embankment that was in front of our cottage.
DG: Hm.
RZ: [Whispering] that’d be interesting.

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June 6 2018

5

PO: Now the people who, our next store neighbors was a man by the name of Kasparik, I can’t
remember for sure if [inaudible] I know he’s in the historical book because I’ve seen his picture in that.
DG: What’s his last name?
RZ: Kasparik.
PO: Kasparik. K A S P A R I K, I believe. And he was a bachelor and he lived there with his sister, uh, uh,
uh, her last name was Romaine but she was married and a widow. Uh, and I think it was R O M A I N E,
romaine, this is romaine and they had that gazeebo, which is still in existence, if you take a walk down
that way. They, they would spend the summer nights sitting there and uh, enjoying the fresh air and I
would go down, go down because there are 42 steps to our cottage, if you’ve seen it.
DG: Okay.
PO: And uh, as a child I would go down and I would visit them, we would sit there and talk.
DG: So when you were coming up in the, in the, the I guess 30s and 40s and all that?
PO: Oh yes.
DG: What was the, what did you, what was your day like, uh when you came up during the summer for
that?
PO: Well, this is, these are my brief memories okay because can’t think, have a continuity with it. I know
it was born, it was built in 1931 because that was year I was born.
DG: Okay.
PO: And, um, the, I also know that my uncle John, because he was the only one who could drive. When
they decided to by the property, he came and put down a, what do they call it, earnest money?
DG: Yes.
PO: He came and he spoke with Hannah Mueller and put down earnest money and the amount of
earnest money he put down, can you think of how much it would cost to buy that piece of property?
DG: I don’t know.
PO: Any idea? [Laughs] He put down $1.
DG: $1!
PO: [Laughing] $1!

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June 6 2018

6

DG: Oh my gosh, as earnest money.
PO: $1 secured the property.
RZ: Didn’t Hannah Mueller own all the lots, that the um….
PO: She owned most of that property, yes.
RZ: All along there. Okay.
DG: All along Park Street.
RZ: So she owned where the Browns cottage was, and the Diffenderfers, and….
PO: Correct, what they, well, no, in their case, they originally came down and they would pitch a tent, in
the area of Mount Baldhead.
[00:10:04]
DG: Oh.
PO: and they, they did that for several years. Now not my parents, but uh, our neighbors and eventually
they bought the property and had the cottage built, the Diffenderfer cottage and the Pilkington’s
cottage.
DG: So what do you remember doing when you came here in the summers when you were younger? As
a kid?
PO: Oh well, when, well when I was a kid, uh, I, I marvel at this because uh, my mother would rent a row
boat, I can’t, for the season.
DG: A rowboat?
PO: And my brother and I would go out in the rowboat and we’d row across the river and we’d go into
town.
DG: Mhm.
PO: And, well that when we were older, of course.
DG: Yeah.
PO: And uh, we would rent bicycles and we’d go bike riding around the area.
DG: Oh! Okay.

�Paola Onesto – Interviewed by David Geen and Renee Zita
June 6 2018

7

PO: That was one of the things we did.
DG: Mhm.
PO: Uh, the other things was that uh, we had a potbellied stove to keep, for, for heat!
DG: Okay.
PO: And, uh, we had to supply the wood. By we, I mean my brother [inaudible] and I, and we would go
out into woods and we’d look for a deadfall. We’d find a tree that we could carry back to the cottage.
DG: Oh god.
PO: Then we’d have to put it on the horses, wooden horses and we’d have to saw it into the right size
plank, lengths so that it would fit into this potbellied stove. After you did all of this, you would make,
make sure you had to have it stacked and piled up in a, in a certain place.
DG: Okay.
PO: So that they had easy access to it. So, we did that.
DG: Did you go to the beach?
PO: Yeah, we did, um, but not every day at that time, not early on, let’s put it that way. Uh, and it was a,
I can remember uh, I can remember walking on a dirt road where it’s just now, where they have the
Oval, the road to the Oval Beach.
DG: Oh yes.
PO: And I can remember walking down the road and I remember resenting, my sister, who was, who
was able to get a ride in a, in a, in a little cart that was called a, what the heck was the name, [inaudible]
but it was a little, a sulky. It was called a sulky and it wasn’t pushed it was pulled.
DG: By a person? Or by a horse?
PO: By a person.
DG: Oh!
RZ: Up to the beach.
PO: It was just, it was just big enough for a child and Anna, my sister, got a chance to ride it, but because
of the distance was so long and it was not convenient because it was a dirt road, and it was not easy to
travel, uh, we did not go every day. That I do remember.

�Paola Onesto – Interviewed by David Geen and Renee Zita
June 6 2018

8

RZ: Didn’t you do the, um, the Red Barn Playhouse, Aunt Paola?
PO: I’m sorry?
RZ: Didn’t you participate in the Red Barn Playhouse?
PO: Oh yeah, but that was much later I was in my teens, I was was in maybe 17, 18 years old when they,
when the Red Barn was erected, or was bought I don’t know, I, or rented, I don’t know whether it, how
it started and, uh, became a theater, and uh, I tried out for a part and I got it and then, uh, for several
years during the summer I would come up to Michigan and I would participate in the plays.
DG: Oh! That sounds fun.
PO: It was, it was, it was a great, thing for me because it, I had, I got to meet the people in the theatre
and find out what type of people they were and uh, and also it gave me a big opportunity to be involved
in something I enjoy doing.
DG: Mhm, did you go out to eat in Saugatuck?
PO: Very rarely.
DG: Rarely.
PO: My mother did all the cooking and the washing, initially we did have hot water.
DG: Oh.
PO: At the cottage. There was no hot water and I have memories of my mother putting big pots of water
on top of the cook stove, kitchen stove, and um getting it boiling and then throw it into the bathtub.
DG: Oh.
PO: Well of course by the time the water got into a cold bathtub it was none too warm by this time but
we bathed in a very small amount of water and uh, that’s what that was done until much later um, but I
can’t, I cannot tell you an exact date when we got a hot water heater, um.
DG: How long did you come up for? Did you come up for two weeks, or a month, or the whole summer?
PO: The whole summer.
[00:15:00]
DG: Well where did you get food? Was the grocery store here?

�Paola Onesto – Interviewed by David Geen and Renee Zita
June 6 2018

9

PO: Oh yeah, there were two grocery stores in town, and we rode, as I said my brother and I would row
across the river. We would dock at some point wherever we could find a place to tie up the boat and
then we would walk into town and uh, we were given chores to do uh, at, if weren’t, ah, one of the
things I told you I think I mentioned that we would rent bicycles but afterwards we were given chores to
do and one of them was to go grocery shopping and then we would walk back to where the boat was
and put all the grocery’s in the boat and row back up.
DG: What was name of the store, do you remember?
PO: No I’m sorry, I do not.
DG: But it was in Saugatuck, the grocery store.
PO: It was in Saugatuck and where, where they have um, oh god what is it, my, you’ll have to excuse my
memory.
DG: That’s okay.
PO: Where we, where we get the sandwiches on the corner of main street there?
DG: Oh.
PO: Ask Renee, Renee would help me with this, where we get the cinnamon rolls and the….
DG and RZ: Pumpernickels!
RZ: Pumpernickels?
PO: I’m sorry?
RZ: Pumpernickels? It use be like a candy store before that?
PO: That was a grocery store.
DG: Oh! Okay.
PO: It was one the grocery stores. We also had, in Saugatuck um, right across the road on the river side
there was a small store that also was a place for these, the family [inaudible] lived. It was a large family,
by that, by that I mean they had many children.
DG: Yeah.
PO: and they had basic groceries there and uh, again that was within walking distance and this was
directly opposite where your mother’s cottage was Renee.

�Paola Onesto – Interviewed by David Geen and Renee Zita
June 6 2018

10

RZ: Oh the Ferry Store.
PO: The Ferry Store.
DG: You never took the chain ferry across? You always rowed your own boat?
PO: Uh, at that time, yeah, we always used our own boat.
DG: Okay, did you ever do anything at Oxbow? What was going on there since you were at Park Street, it
was kind of close? Wasn’t it?
PO: Yes, no, I never got involved down there.
DG: Never did anything there.
PO: NO, because we were, you have to understand that with a cottage vacation you have a lot of
visitors, I mean, everyone would come up and uh, the, and they would bring children! And we had all of
our cousins would be there, we’d be climbing Mount Baldhead and we, we’d be hiking through the
woods, and it was all outside activities.
DG: There were steps going up to Mount Baldhead at the time?
PO: For me, yeah.
DG: Always steps.
PO: Yeah, mhm.
DG. Yeah.
RZ: Do you remember when the radar tower was built?
PO: I don’t recall, I’m thinking it had to be in the war years.
DG: In the 50s.
PO: 40s.
DG: 40s.
PO: I’m guessing, now this is a sheer guess. Only because of the necessity to have some, uh, something
there to protect us I guess. If there as a, if there was an attack of some kind I, I mean, I was a kid.
DG: Yeah, you’re not, yeah.

�Paola Onesto – Interviewed by David Geen and Renee Zita
June 6 2018

11

PO: So I, I, I really didn’t pay any attention to it but I think it was built in that era. I can’t be sure, so I, I’m
just, my memories of seeing it, that is all l can give you.
DG: So when you got a little older and you had your own children, what did you do with them?
PO: Same thing, pretty much. We, well now of course we’re driving so were going to other towns and
visiting and uh, uh, we, and basically when the children were little, they loved going to the beach so
that’s what we did, we went to the beach. We carried all the paraphernalia of toys and this and that and
the other thing down there and uh, uh, um, we hiked, we walked constantly to the old harbor, uh, we
we often would go to the old harbor because uh, we knew the way there and it was sort of um, an
escape from the crowd of people that would be at the Oval Beach. It was not always called the Oval
Beach, I don’t think that came until, um, maybe the 50s. I’m not sure when they called it that, it was
always a dirt road and then eventually obviously it was paved.
DG: Where’s the old harbor?
PO: You don’t know where the old harbor is?
DG: No.
RZ: You don’t? It’s the old harbor that the boats used to come in on.
DG: Oh!
RZ: Where Oxbow is.
DG: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That’s where you’d go, that was the river though right?
RZ: Yeah, well.
PO: Well, what it was is it originally it had been a um, lumbering town.
DG: That’s right.
PO: And then the sands shifted, the water shifted, and it became closed off, it was, you could not travel
the, I guess the….
[00:20:09]
DG: Oh.
PO: …boats would come in and go up the river via that channel but it when the water got so shallow,
obviously.
DG: Yes.

�Paola Onesto – Interviewed by David Geen and Renee Zita
June 6 2018

12

PO: That was no longer, they were no longer able to use it, and however the water was warm.
DG: Okay.
PO: It was always fresh. So, I mean Lake Michigan you could always rely on and uh, um we would love to
go there to swim….
DG: Okay.
PO: …because the water was nice and warm….
DG: Warmer.
PO: …and again we had a, again it as very private and not too many people were aware of it….
DG: Oh, okay.
PO: …and let’s see.
DG: That’s the oxbow lagoon, sort of now.
PO: That’s probably what they call it now, yes.
DG: Oh! Did you go out, did you, when, did you go to the Old Crow? No.
PO: Oh yeah, um, for, for dinners or going, if you wanted to go out for an evening when we were older,
yes. Um, but our children made good use of the Old Crow, you can ask Renee about that.
RZ: Yeah.
PO: They would, they would uh, they got to know all the bouncers there.
DG: That’s right. .
RZ: Especially your daughter, Irene. [Laughs] Kevin! Kevin Mariani that was his name.
PO: I’m sorry, Renee?
RZ: The boy that Irene liked, Kevin Mariani or something, right?
PO: I don’t know, I can’t, I can’t remember their names. All you kids had a slew of boys following you
around and my husband was on guard duty all the time, he made sure that they behaved themselves.
DG: That’s right.

�Paola Onesto – Interviewed by David Geen and Renee Zita
June 6 2018

13

PO: Because, uh, he, one night he threw them out of the house [Laughs] and uh, because they came up
around 11 o’clock at night.
DG: Oh.
PO: Do you remember this, Renee?
RZ: No.
PO: No, well. They came up to the cottage about 11 o’clock at night and uh, one of them, I can’t, there
was about four of them and one of them came in with no shirt on, but what people now call a dago tee I
think.
DG: Yeah.
PO: And and a can of beer, an open can of beer.
DG: Oh.
PO: And uh, my father, my father. My husband took one look at them and he knew them!
DG: Oh!
PO: Because they’d been around before and he said, “You, you, you get the hell out of here!” he said “If
you come calling, you come at a reasonable hour and you don’t come dressed like that!”
DG: Oh my gosh.
PO: and he, so now we have tears. All the girls are crying.
DG: Oh, they’re all crying.
PO: [imitating the crying] “Oh, but, we won’t show ourselves on the beach anymore”.
RZ: [Laughs]
PO: [More crying noises] …. Harold says “forget out it”.
DG: Oh my gosh.
PO: So the next day, they, we were on the beach, I wasn’t but Harold was and he said uh, one of the
young men came up to him and he said, “Mr. Onesto I want to apologize for last night” he said, “These
people don’t understand about Italian families.” [Laughs]
DG: Oh.

�Paola Onesto – Interviewed by David Geen and Renee Zita
June 6 2018

14

RZ: [Laughs]
PO: He says, [inaudible] He didn’t add that but he said, “I want to apologize, we should not have done
that.” And uh he says, “You’re welcome at any time but come at a decent hour, and dress right.”
DG: Oh my gosh, yeah.
RZ: But now where did, when you were younger, you went dancing at the big pavilion, correct?
PO: Yes. Yes. The pavilion was at that time, oh! That was the other thing, at night my sister and I would,
my mother would give us a quarter and we would have to take the ferry to get into town because she
wouldn’t allow us to row the boat at night and uh, we would, because every night they changed the
movie. So there was a new movie every night and of course, when you were in the movies they would
show a preview of the coming features, so we wanted to go there, so we pretty much ended up going to
town every night and uh, Anna and I, and to, to watch a movie. Came out and it was still light.
DG: Oh.
PO: Wasn’t really, wasn’t dark. But you go to a 6 o’clock movie, but in the movie you got to see the
feature, you got to see the news, you got to see a cartoon and uh, of course the previews of the coming
features.
RZ: Did you ever go dancing there?
PO: Yeah, when, when I got older that was not when we were little, when we were in our probably our
elementary school years.
DG: Oh, so when you were little the movie started at 6:00.
PO: Yeah.
DG: And got done at like, 8:00 or something….
PO: Like 8:00.
DG: And then the dancing was after that.
PO: Uh, the dancing was always there. This, this pavilion was a huge facility.
DG: Okay.
PO: Uh, they had, just the area for the movies.
DG: Oh.

�Paola Onesto – Interviewed by David Geen and Renee Zita
June 6 2018

15

PO: …and then there was this huge hall, at least it looked very huge to me, and it was in an oval shape.
Well it, it was rectangular actually but they had it fixed so that you, that couples would dance around.
Now I can tell you this, my mother said that originally, they’re dancing in formals, gowns.
[00:25:15]
DG: Oh.
PO: Then during the war years, it changed, and they were skirts.
DG: Okay.
PO: and then later on, I guess it got even more casual because they tried to go with slacks, and then
shorts and they, they had a full orchestra at the beginning, I can remember that, and you had to pay 10
cents to dance.
DG: Oh.
PO: There’s that, there was a song called 10 cents a dance but that’s, that was for something else. Uh,
but you, so if you paid 10 cents you could dance with your partner, and you would be, that would give
you probably enough time to go around twice.
DG: Oh.
PO: You do the perimeter, say you were going around the perimeter, you would have an opportunity to
get at least two dances in before you had to pay another 10 cents.
DG: How fun.
PO: Yeah, it was!
RZ: Was there ever anyone that you were ever sweet on? That lived here?
PO: No.
RZ: No?
PO: No. Not till I was older of course.
RZ: But mom, my mom was sweet on, um, who was that? Norm Deen?
PO: Norm Deen was one, he was a nice kid. He’s, I don’t know, is he still living in the area?
RZ: Yeah, yeah. He is. Yes.

�Paola Onesto – Interviewed by David Geen and Renee Zita
June 6 2018

16

PO: And I know I haven’t seen him in a couple of years, but then I haven’t been up there myself. But he
would always ask about the family, about your mother and the uh, oh let’s see, boyfriends? I, I had a
crush on a boy that was also a summer visitor and uh, he lives, he didn’t live in Saugatuck, he lived in this
sort of a, off of Campbell, you know? The area, on the, where, the lakeshore, lakeshore. He lived along
the lakeshore.
RZ: Okay.
PO: And uh, he was from West Point.
DG: West Point!
PO: Yeah, uh huh. We went to the military school.
DG: Oh!
PO: and uh, so I saw him, maybe four times. [Laughs]
DG: Oh yeah?
PO: And I, I, I, I, I had a crush on him. I don’t know why, how this, these things happen, but they did. He
was very nice to me and we had a good time, uh, again, he could drive, and we go to Holland to see a
movie. Holland was very very strict at that time. They uh, would not allow movies to be shown on
Sundays.
DG: Oh.
PO: And uh, dancing was forbidden, so naturally, the kids got into trouble.
RZ: So they all came down to Saugatuck, right?
PO: Mhm, they found a way. There’s always, where there’s a will there’s a way.
DG: Oh gosh, yeah. They couldn’t dance in Holland so they came to Saugatuck.
RZ: They could Dutch dance. [Laughs] Okay, well that’s great.
DG: Wow. Did boats, boats used to come into Saugatuck and bring people over right?
PO: I’m sorry, would you repeat that?
DG: Steam boats used to come into Saugatuck?
PO: Oh yeah, yeah. We would, uh, the um, the Keewatin I can remember it going up the river when it
came in it was a big to-do.

�Paola Onesto – Interviewed by David Geen and Renee Zita
June 6 2018

17

DG: It’s big.
PO: Everybody was standing on the embankment of their, if they had one, or going over to Mount
Baldhead where you could get down close to the river front and uh, because that was public property
and uh, we were, we would stand, well we were fortunate we could stand on our porch and just watch
this thing steam up the river. So we watch it go up, and we watched it sail down. It was an event.
DG: That’s fun.
PO: That was about 40 years, I’d say. It was there a long time.
DG: Yeah. Well I think that’s about everything.
PO: Ah, I’m glad I was able to help you David.
DG: Oh no, you’re wonderful.
PO: So then, as I said, some of the things I know happened that I can’t put pin point a date.
RZ: So I was going to share um, one of the pictures of you and mom on the beach, they’re going to put it
in a book, is that okay with you Aunt Paola?
PO: Oh sure. Oh sure.
RZ: Okay, alright.
PO: I have a, did, did, did you see the picture of my mother, your mother and our two, my two brothers
and myself on the beach?
[00:30:01]
RZ: Oh yeah, I know, I know that one.
PO: You know that one? That’s a great shot.
RZ: Unless you have a better copy, and um you can scan it and send it to me that would be a wonderful
shot.
PO: Okay, I, I will try to do that, yeah. Unfortunately, the picture I have your mother is cut in half and I
don’t know why that happened but that’s the way the picture was dissolved and uh, and she was, she
was sitting on the back of Aunt Tina.
RZ: There’s another one I have of you guys all at the beach, I have to look through the, the photos, but.
PO: Okay, I’ll see if Harold can….

�Paola Onesto – Interviewed by David Geen and Renee Zita
June 6 2018

18

RZ: You know they’ll also take what they’re doing here complimentary is like all of Uncle Harold’s slides
of Saugatuck, they would put them in a digitable, digital format.
PO: Oh! Okay.
RZ: So if, when you come back up here if you bring all those slides, they will, they will take them, right?
DG: I think so, yeah.
RZ: I think that’s what they’re doing. They’ll take the slides and put them in a, a, on a disc for you.
PO: Okay. Oh that would be lovely.
RZ: The ones he hasn’t done, because I know he’s done.
PO: I’m not sure if he hasn’t got to that himself but uh, yeah, this, this would be uh, quite a, oh you
know where we also went? Goshorn Lake!
RZ: Goshorn Lake?
DG: Oh, yeah. You went up there.
RZ: When the flies weren’t biting.
PO: We spent a lot time at Goshorn Lake, we didn’t always go to Lake Michigan, again the water was
warmer….
DG: Yeah.
PO: …uh, and uh, but it was more dangerous. It was extremely dangerous and uh, because it goes down
at a 45 degree angle.
DG: It’s deep, yeah.
PO: and uh, and I, and the thing is we had all of these children, there was 5 of the Rinaldi’s, there was 4
of us, uh and uh, well and Richard went, my older brother was 10 years older than I so he didn’t hang
around with us at all.
DG: Mhm.
PO: Um, but uh, I remember Vicky this, this scared the heck out of me. Am I, am I giving you, wasting too
much of your time?
DG: No, it’s good.
PO: Um, we were sitting at a, a, you couldn’t lie flat because it was at this steep….

�Paola Onesto – Interviewed by David Geen and Renee Zita
June 6 2018

19

DG: Steep.
PO: …decent into the water. But it was alright, and I, I was always on guard duty and I didn’t look for
people, I counted head. I was always counting heads, counting heads, and I looked and here’s Vicky,
must have been a toddler or I would say 4 or 5 years old and she’s in the water and she’s struggling
because the water is over her nose.
DG: Oh.
PO: Now she’s standing but she’s probably, she’s probably standing on her toes, trying to get a, a, trying
to get, grip the sand so that she can get out of the water and I have to tell you David, it was, so surreal
for me because I’m thinking, I’m thinking that I’m moving in slow motion. I couldn’t get there fast
enough and I’m thinking to myself, ”She can’t breathe, the water is over her nose, I’ve got to get to her”
and as in a movie, or a scene on television I wasn’t able to move, I was going so slowly to get her, and I
got her of course, I pulled her out of the water but she could’ve drowned in that water and we were all
there! We were all there! And it was, it was, an adult could stand there but a child couldn’t. So that was,
that scared the heck out of me, and so for sure I never, I never, when we went I never, uh, I never laid
out. I patrolled the beach constantly, I wanted to make sure all the kids were okay.
DG: Okay, yeah.
PO: So, but I, she, she scared me and, and, and it was the most eerie feeling. Still feel it today telling you
the story, how I wanted to get to her but I couldn’t get any traction with my feet and I couldn’t get
there, and it, it was terribly terribly terribly frightening for me.
DG: Hm, well you saved her.
PO: I saved her. Thank god.
DG: Good. Good.
PO: But she’s still running around.
DG: She’s still running around.
PO: She’s got a beautiful I understand, on the lake.
DG: Yes she does. Yep.
PO: So.
RZ: Okay, well thank you for your time Aunt Paola.
DG: Yes! Thank you.

�Paola Onesto – Interviewed by David Geen and Renee Zita
June 6 2018

20

PO: Oh honey I don’t mind, I enjoy talking to, I, probably other ideas will pop up in my head. Like I just
thought of Goshorn Lake, we spent a lot of time there.
DG: Yeah, no this is great.
RZ: And remember to mention if those slides you want, they, they’ll take them and put them in the
digital format, so, if you want to bring them up next time you come.
PO: Okay, I’ll tell Harold, now that’s his domain.
RZ: Alright.
[00:35:01]
DG: Okay.
RZ: Tell him Renee asked him to. Okay.
PO: Okay, I shall.
RZ: He doesn’t have to do them, he just needs to bring them here.
PO: Okay, and do you want some strawberry pop?
RZ: And strawberry pop, that’s right. [Laughs] Okay. That’s an inside joke.
PO: Renee she liked strawberry pop and Harold always brought her a bottle of strawberry pop.
DG: That’s fun.
RZ: That’s right.
DG: Oh gosh.
RZ: Alright Aunt Paola.
DG: Well thank you.
PO: Oh, you know one other thing what we did in the cottage?
RZ: What’s that?
PO: You want me to keep you on the line longer?
RZ: Just, another minute, go on, tell us the story.

�Paola Onesto – Interviewed by David Geen and Renee Zita
June 6 2018

21

PO: Okay, on, in Saugatuck remember we have no ceilings, over our bedrooms.
RZ: Yeah, we had no ceilings in our cottage.
DG: Okay.
PO: The way the cottage is built.
RZ: A loft.
PO: The roof is our ceiling. But the roof only has walls, they don’t have any ceilings.
DG: Oh.
PO: So as kids we would get into pillow fights.
DG: Oh.
PO: We would throw the pillows back and forth over the walls.
RZ: The rafters.
DG: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. That’s fun.
PO: So, we, until my mother couldn’t stand it anymore and that was the end of that but really that uh,
that was one of the fun things that we would do, crazy things like that.
DG: Yeah!
PO: And uh, but uh, for me they’re great memories.
DG: That’s great.
PO: Glad I got to share them with the kids. Anyhow David, I hope this gives you information….
DG: No, you’ve, wonderful things, I’m sure it will be great to have.
RZ: Alright Aunt Paola, thank you!
DG: Thank you.
PO: You’re welcome sweetheart, and uh, I hope to see you up, when we get back.
RZ: Yeah! Okay.
PO: I can’t tell when, because we see a lot of doctors you know.

�Paola Onesto – Interviewed by David Geen and Renee Zita
June 6 2018
RZ: Okay.
PO: Okay honey.
DG: Okay, thank you!
RZ: Alright, love you! Buh-bye.
DG: Uh huh, bye.
PO: And nice talking to you David.
DG: Same here.
PO: You’re welcome.

22

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Douglas R. Gilbert (b. 1942) is an American photographer from Michigan. He was born in Holland, Michigan and is the son of Russell W. and Carmen (Andree) Gilbert. Gilbert earned a B.A. in social sciences and art at Michigan State University in 1964, an M.S. in photography from the Institute of Design at Illinois Institute of Technology in 1972, and a M.S.W. from Salem State College in 1993. He is married to Barbara (McDonald) Gilbert, and has three daughters, Robyn, Rachel, and Anne. Gilbert took a serious interest in photography at the age of fourteen. In 1963 he joined the staff of Look magazine in New York as the second youngest photojournalist in the magazine's history. As a Look photographer from 1964 to 1966, he photographed folk musician Bob Dylan, the Newport Folk Festival, Simon and Garfunkel, the New York City Financial District, the children and facilities at the Manhattan School for Seriously Disturbed Children. From 1967 to 1969, Gilbert did several shoots, including that of folk singer Janis Ian for Life magazine. After moving to Chicago, Illinois in 1969 to attend the Illinois Institute of Technology, Gilbert conducted notable photo shoots of business and political figure Lenore Romney, and pursued more personal and artistic photography, focusing on urban and rural landscapes in Illinois and Michigan. He then joined the faculty of Wheaton College, where he taught from 1972 to 1982. In 1993, Gilbert graduated from Salem State College, Massachusetts, with a Masters in Social Work, and later pursued a second career as a psychotherapist. Douglas Gilbert died in June 2023. &#13;
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Throughout his photography career, he pursued both freelance commercial work as well as artistic work. His art photography is characterized by its classic black-and-white format, and features people, places and objects shot great attention and sensitivity. Gilbert's works are held in the permanent collections of the Art Institute of Chicago, the High Museum of Art in Atlanta, The Norton Simon Museum in Pasadena, and the Grand Valley State University Art Galleries, as well as in numerous private and institutional collections.&#13;
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                    <text>Grand Valley State University
Veterans’ History Project
Robert Park
World War II
56 minutes 12 seconds
(00:18) Early Life
-Born in Grand Rapids, Michigan in 1925
-Grew up in Grand Rapids
-Attended Alger Elementary School
-Burton Junior High
-South High School
-Lived in Seymour Square/South High School area
-Father worked for a Chrysler dealer
-Test driver, put heaters and radios into cars, picked up cars from Detroit
-Lost job during the Great Depression
-Originally lived near the old Grand Rapids Airport near 32nd Street
-Lost that house during the Depression
-Rented after that
-Only had a sister
-Father began to find work during the late 1930s
(02:15) Pre-Enlistment War Activity
-Remembers hearing about Pearl Harbor on the radio
-Did not think he would have to fight
-School became active in the war effort
-War bond drives, volunteerism
-Did not know much about the German or Japanese expansion before Pearl Harbor
-Several friends enlisted when they were old enough or were drafted
(03:32) Getting Drafted
-Had been born at the end of August
-Held back a year before Kindergarten
-This led to being drafted while still in school
-Received a draft notice in summer of 1943 during senior year
-Stayed in school until induction into the Reserve in November, 1943
-Called up for active duty December 18, 1943
(04:40) Basic Training Overview
-Reported to Fort Sheridan, Illinois
-Transferred via troop train to Camp Roberts, California
-Train ride was enjoyable
-Saw beautiful scenery
-Considerably long trip
-Camp Roberts
-Large base
-Crucial place for artillery training
-Took a series of tests during training

�-Had taken a lot of math courses in high school which led to his placement
-Placed in the Instrument and Survey School involved with the artillery
(07:00) Basic Training Specifics
-Initial basic training
-Strong emphasis on discipline
-Recruits did not wash out
-Diverse array of men that had been drafted
-Vigorous gym courses had prepared him physically
-Old men were not in shape
-Drill sergeants were fairly rough with the trainees
-Lasted seventeen weeks
(09:05) Instrument and Survey School Training
-Technical school involved learning about instruments and using math for artillery
-Taught artillery procedure concerning actual loading and firing of the guns
-Instruments
-Aiming circle (reticle on a tripod)
-Battery commander’s telescope (complex binoculars that could be split in two)
-Range finder (calculated range)
-Taught how to use slide rules and calculate angles involving geometry
(11:21) Deployment-Pre Departure
-After basic training was given a furlough home
-Told to report to Camp Bowie, Texas
-13th Armored Division was located there
-Huge base
-Attached units, support units were stationed there
-Had a massive training reservation for artillery maneuvers
-Assigned to firing battery of the 498th Armored Field Artillery Battalion of the 13th Armored
-Consisted of: HQ battery, A, B, C battery, and a maintenance unit
-Used M7 self-propelled 105mm howitzer
-Made an observer
-Traveled in a halftrack or a jeep
-Part of a recon section
-Attached to tanks and infantry near the frontline
-13th Armored Division was a young division that had been formed in 1942 per Patton’s request
(15:55) Deployment-Departure
-Left Camp Bowie in January, 1945 via a troop train
-Went to Fort Dix, New Jersey and boarded an Army transport ship
-Heard naval escorts firing on U-Boats
-German Luftwaffe (air force) was still a threat
-Had three naval ships protecting them
-Weather was cold, but not bad
-No one got sick on the trip over
-Took about seven to ten days to land in Europe

�(19:04) Arrival in European Theatre
-Landed in Southampton, England and stayed over night
-Traveled to France next
-Landed at Le Havre
-Boarded another troop train
-Rode in boxcars without heat
-Taken to a farm in Normandy, France
-Assembled division there
(20:40) Saar River Action
-Had to march into Northern France, specifically near the Saar River
-Fired over the river into German territory
-He was not considered “active” yet
-German retaliation was weak
-Stars and Stripes newspaper provided a little information about the war’s progress
-Stayed in that area for a while
(23:10) Ruhr Pocket Action
-Moved to Belgian border area
-Did not have to fight on the Siegfried Line
-Montgomery and Patton had an allied rivalry on reaching Berlin
-This led to the 13th Armored Division fighting in the Ruhr Pocket
-The troops weren’t getting enough sleep; they were stressed, and freezing
-Slept on the ground
-Subject to German artillery harassment
-Ruhr Pocket was heavily defended
-Required multiple divisions to break through
-Provided a straight shot to Berlin
-Germans only fought as long as they had food
-Took a lot of German prisoners of war
-Defeated, hungry, and ready to quit
-Saw children mixed in with their infantry
-Had been armed with bazooka/RPG style weapon
-Battery took some casualties from German retaliation
-Germans knew the area extremely well and had trained in it
(31:40) Details about Combat in the Ruhr Pocket
-Did not see much in the way of German aircraft
-Got strafed by a German fighter only once
-Never saw one of their jet fighters
-Germany’s running out of fuel led to a lack of air raids
-Had American air support
-Had to establish observation points
-Looked for high ground or tall buildings
-Carried 20x telescope along with binoculars
-Used observation points to coordinate artillery fire
-Tremendous firepower was provided by three artillery battalions
-Used a Posit (proximity) Fuse (secret technology at the time) which allowed for shells to
airburst

�(34:31) Bavarian Territory during War
-Didn’t see many civilians
-Some were fleeing the warzone
-Secured Ruhr Pocket and moved into Bavaria
-Encountered some resistance moving into Austria
-Very few Germans at this point
-Random pockets of dug in German resistance
-Was in Austria during VE Day
(36:10) Bavarian Territory after War
-After Potsdam Conference and Agreements zones of occupation were established
-Set up outposts in the Bavarian Territory
-Saw lots of German refugees fleeing the Soviet advance
-Russian atrocities terrified the civilians
-Large group tried to cross a freezing river
-Not technically allowed to let them cross, but allowed it anyway
-Heard “things” about the Russians, but never saw them
-Heard about revenge against the German populace
-Stayed in Bavarian Territory until being moved back to a staging area
-Got a tour of Hitler’s Eagle’s Nest (mountaintop retreat)
-Got a pass to Paris
-Plan was to move the 13th Armored Division back to U.S. for Japanese invasion training
(40:06) Coming Home for Training
-Got home in late July/early August of 1945
-Return voyage was bad because of storms
-Everyone, sailors included, got sick
-Landed at Norfolk, Virginia
-First sight was a Red Cross woman with a glass of milk
-Got treated to a nice dinner
-Got to go home for a furlough
-Told to report back to Camp Roberts for amphibious training for invasion of Japan
-Japan surrendered during furlough
-Still had to report to California
-Troops in training were ecstatic about the war’s end
(43:40) Duty after the War
-Stayed in California for some training
-Given passes to Los Angeles and San Francisco
th
-13 Armored Division was deactivated
-Transferred temporarily into the 20th Armored Division until their deactivation
-Did not have enough points to be released
-Got moved to the 2nd Armored Division at Fort Hood, Texas
-Did more training there
-Had to participate in the Army Day Parade in San Antonio in April, 1946
-Parade marshal was Jonathan Wainwright
-Major general captured by the Japanese after the Fall of Bataan
-After that was released from the military

�(46:00) After the Army
-Lost a bit of hearing and hair
-Abrasive soap and helmets contributed to hair loss
-Explosions were to blame for hearing loss
-Filed for unemployment
-Found a job a couple months later
-Worked in a mill supply house
-Packed up machines and light tools then shipped them around Grand Rapids
-Enrolled in junior college (community college)
-Business administration and literary arts
-Met future wife at this time
-Got engaged to her after one year
-Took a factory job to support wife and prepare for coming baby
-Went to Davenport College a few times
-Got some college credit and some math credit from Army training
-Regrets not finishing college
-Did get high school diploma while in Germany
(50:56) Reflections on Service
-Believes that he was fortunate during his time in the Army and the war
-Being young, fit, single, and well trained was instrumental in survival
-Getting to avoid frontline fighting helped longevity
-“Aged ten years” from being in combat
-Division later formed its own organization for reunions
-Was asked by a former teacher to write a story about the war for a student
-Wrote about the humorous things that happened during his service
-Pig falling into the latrine in France
-Spiders and snakes in Texas

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