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https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/69f84567e77ed657197df3e111565277.mp4
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https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b59d7ffb180537fdf14a13fc214a55e5.pdf
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Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
National Guard Band
Dave Pugh
Total Time – (50:52)
Background
He was born in Lansing, Michigan in 1961 (00:23)
His family moved when he was two years old to Grand Rapids, Michigan
During high school he was very involved in music (00:34)
o He enjoyed the music, the interaction, and the friends
When he went to college, he decided to take some music classes (00:51)
o He enjoyed all of the same elements as he did in high school
o During a rehearsal the Director told him that there was a place that needed
some trumpet players that paid (01:09)
o It was the first time that he realized he could make money from music
(01:19)
He knew that he could get a teaching degree and then teach music (01:33)
One of his friends told him that he played in an Army band
o He did not think that he could play in an Army band because he was in
college
o The band played and rehearsed once a week (01:55)
They also did summer concerts
When he went to check out the Army band he found out that there were multiple
local band directors that were there (02:21)
o He felt like it was the beginning of networking
He talked to the recruiter about being part of the group
o The recruiter was very encouraging (02:39)
o This was around 1980
Enlistment/Training – (02:49)
Because it was the beginning of Ronald Reagan’s presidency [Jimmy Carter had
given the order to restart draft registration], he had to go and sign up for the draft
(02:54)
o The draft had been reinstituted
o He was not afraid to go and fill out the card for the draft (03:08)
He remembers watching the news about Vietnam when it was occurring (03:20)
o The news made Vietnam seem scary but he did not feel like it was
something to fear
�
o However, he was told that if he joined, he could choose what he would do
(03:41)
If you get drafted, the military gets to pick what you do
o He saw joining the band as an opportunity to get better as a player, meet
some people, and get paid a little (03:55)
The group that he had met was part of the 126th National Guard Band (04:07)
Once he signed up, they were very accommodating because he was a student
(04:26)
He went to Fort Jackson, South Carolina for Basic Training (04:34)
o It was extremely hot – he ran, did pushups and sit-ups, and all the other
typical training
After Basic Training he went to AIT (Advanced Individual Training) (05:06)
o He went in with the Civilian Acquired Skills Program because he had the
skill of playing an instrument
o He had a higher rank when he went in (05:22)
A year after AIT he went to Fort Benjamin Harrison, Indiana to play in a band
(05:30)
o He enjoyed his time there – they almost convinced him to stay
They tried to convince him to finish his studies at Butler
University and stay with the group (06:05)
When he was at Fort Benjamin Harrison he did “graveyard duty”
o There were eight of them that would drive around in a van and play at
military funerals (06:21)
o The majority of them were day trips
He would get used to the routine of playing (06:52)
It was very satisfying for him to play because he felt like he was showing honor to
those that had given more than he felt like he was giving (07:04)
He would sometimes be able to meet the families
They played primarily at the funerals of World War II and Korean War veterans
(07:22)
Because he was playing in the summer, the stints were roughly eight or nine
weeks
o In Indianapolis the stints were a month long (07:38)
At Basic Training in South Carolina, the Drill Sergeants were just as tough on
him as anyone (08:00)
o They want to press the soldiers to see if they will do what they are told
(08:05)
o There was one soldier that was having a seizure – he spoke before he was
supposed to do and had to do pushups
o They teach the soldiers how to respond when under pressure (08:41)
He trained with all kinds of people
o He was only one of three college guys (08:49)
o His bunkmate was another guy from college
o There were guys that probably had a GED (General Educational
Development) (09:06)
o There were tall guys, short guys, fat guys, and skinny guys
�
They were just normal people (09:17)
o The majority of the guys were from the South
Most of the men that started with him also finished (09:47)
o Some went through extraordinary measures to not stay in (09:52)
The men in Indiana were completely different than those in South Carolina
o For them it was a life profession (10:20)
o Some of them were going to be lifers in the Army
o He was amazed at how much like college it was (10:36)
o All afternoon there were three our four hours of free time
After Training/Band Attachment – (11:09)
After Fort Benjamin Harrison he had three more years of college (11:13)
o He went to Central Michigan University (11:22)
There was no one that he knew that got their degree in four years
He graduated in 1986 (12:10)
Since he had already done training, his regular duties for the National Guard was
to follow the schedule that was handed down by the Band Master (12:21)
o The Band Master made them feel like they had input on the schedules
He had an opportunity to go to London, England for the 40th Anniversary of
NATO (12:45)
o They only took twenty five people in a block
He did not get to go (13:11)
He planned on going but could not spend six weeks away from his
three month old child (13:33)
When his friend found out that he was not going he felt bad
Every Tuesday night he was required to go to Grand Rapids, Michigan for
rehearsal (14:07)
o Every Tuesday night he would leave rehearsal in the middle because he
had a class
o He enjoyed his Tuesday nights (15:06)
During the summers he had various things to do
o They tried to tour the state every year (15:25)
They would do it in different portions
o They played for many different things (15:41)
o On January 1st they would play in Lansing, Michigan for the different
inaugurations
o They did military graduations (16:01)
They would go to Fort Custer, Michigan to play as well
o They were the only National Guard band in the state (16:14)
There was an Army band in the state but they did not have enough
to field an entire band
o When he entered, the band only had 30-40 members. After ten years there
were over 50 players in the band (16:20)
o He sang as well
�
When he joined the National Guard, there were three or four guys that had
actually seen active duty in Vietnam (18:24)
o There were five or six guys that had been in the band when they were
deployed near the riots in Detroit in the later 1960’s
o There were two or three girls in the group (18:51)
As the group grew there were more women that joined
o Some men had served and wanted to come back and play (19:17)
Once a year the soldiers would have to go to Fort Custer, Michigan and fire
M16’s to re-qualify (19:34)
o There was a certain amount of mystique of the 1970’s when things were
crazy
His band was attached to the hospital (20:44)
o When the hospital drilled, they would drill
o They were told that they were the only band in the country that was
attached to a hospital (21:30)
o They eventually became attached to Headquarters (21:40)
After they were switched they had a lot more ease of scheduling and could do
what they wanted to do
o For Headquarter related duties they would play at an officer’s ball or any
other kind of similar activity (22:28)
His band was very good at sight reading – they had an entire folder of background
music that could be played by everyone in the band
o There were certain patriotic numbers that everyone would always want to
here (23:18)
When they were attached to Headquarters they were taken to a section that was
quite large (24:07)
o Some of the men were not pleased with the fact that they had to do certain
duties such as digging holes
o Around the mid-1980’s there was a push to not have “A fat band that just
sits around. These are military guys.” (24:30)
Because he had been in Basic Training only three years before, he
was fine with the switch. Some of the other older men were not
okay with the change (25:07)
Some of the men stepped down because of it
After five years he only made E5 (25:52)
He had fifteen years of service with the band (26:14)
He was nervous during the Gulf War
o He believes that he came very close to going (26:59)
Active Duty – (27:28)
When he was doing his weeks of active duty in the summer, the band would do a
lot of fun things
o In Newberry, Michigan there was a mental health facility that they were at
when a veteran yelled, “Play or go home!” (28:19)
�
o The once played at the Wyoming Senior Center
Everyone in the audience was in a bed or on a wheelchair (28:50)
o They once went to Trinidad and Tobago for two weeks (29:47)
The band spent the first portion of their trip in Tobago
When they set up to play for the locals, they were dancing,
swinging, and really enjoying their time (30:40)
In Trinidad they had a good time as well
o They also had a fifteen day trip to Italy (31:45)
They played in the embassy (31:58)
It was a cocktail evening
They played for the 500th anniversary of Christopher Columbus in
Genoa, Italy (32:08)
They played in many different cities
The people were warm, friendly, and loved Americans (32:30)
o After one concert, many Italians came up to them and wanted to give them
some items
One older fellow came and told him how thankful to America he
was (33:27)
He told them that he was a boy during World War II when
Germans came into his town when Americans arrived and defeated
the Germans, saving their property (33:44)
It was the highlight of his musical life
o He played in a beautiful opera house in Italy as well (34:25)
o In 1989, the band was called on to be the United States representatives to
go on tour in China (36:25)
They took courses on Chinese culture, language, etc.
When they were all set to go, the events at Tiananmen Square
happened and they had to pull out (36:56)
He was hugely disappointed (37:05)
He had previously investigated going to China to teach English
When they had been ready to go, his wife got pregnant and
they were declined work (37:27)
Over the course of his sixteen years, the National Guard significantly changed
o It was look in the 1970’s and then eventually tightened up (38:33)
It was good that it tightened up
o It went from being haphazardly assigned to the hospital to being more
appropriately assigned to Headquarters (38:48)
o It seemed like he did a lot more performing in the later years
He thinks the National Guard Band is good for people to see because it opens up
their eyes to see that the military is not just the Infantry, Air Force, Navy Seals,
etc. (39:18)
After his first six years he was offered the G.I. Bill if he reenlisted for another six
years (39:56)
o He was already done with college so they paid a certain portion of his
student loan debt (40:08)
The military paid his balance
�
It was very financially rewarding
The last eight or nine years were a great period of growth for the band (40:29)
He had one opportunity where he played in a brass quintet
o He was flown out of Grand Ledge, Michigan on a helicopter to fly to
Detroit (41:22)
He thinks that there was a change in the way things went on in the military
o When he joined, the group went from a sloppier group to a more
professional group (42:46)
o As the group got bigger, better, and more professional, it seemed as
though the Army did the same thing (43:14)
o Soldiers in the National Guard felt like their jobs had some significance
He did not stay in longer than sixteen years because his family moved (43:38)
o Now he wishes he would have gone back and taken those five years
His experiences in the service were extremely positive (44:14)
o He started to run during the service as well
o He gained a sense of confidence that he could do all kinds of physical
activities
o There were days that were over 100 degrees where they would not do
anything (44:39)
The military would protect the soldiers (44:53)
He made a lot of positive connections while playing with the band
o He was able to get a job through his connections (46:20)
o He was able to network through his connections (46:31)
While he was teaching as a band director, he was playing with an adult band – he
was able to have a standard for when he was teaching
He tells young people that the Reserves or the National Guard is the best choice
for them (47:17)
When he was on Twitter one time, he got a reply that someone was excited to see
him up there
o The military obviously has people that work with social media to connect
with others (48:43)
o The list of jobs in the military is endless
He still has several friends that were a part of his military career (50:03)
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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PughD1074V
Title
A name given to the resource
Pugh, Thomas Dave (Interview outline and video), 2011
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Pugh, Thomas Dave
Description
An account of the resource
Dave Pugh was born in Lansing, Michigan in 1961. Dave was in college during the aftermath of Vietnam, studying music and teaching. He enlisted into the military to be a part of the National Guard Band. He went to Fort Jackson, South Carolina for Basic Training. After AIT training he went to Fort Benjamin Harrison, Indiana where he played alongside a National Guard Band. During his time in the band he played at veterans' funerals, at the 40th anniversary of NATO in London, England, at the Michigan inaugurations, mental health facilities, Trinidad and Tobago, and Italy.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Byron Area Historic Museum (Byron Center, Mich.)
BCTV
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
United States. National Guard
Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2011-03-29
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Format
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application/pdf
video/mp4
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
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https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7cb29c62c0518ebcd9f26d90a157b94e.m4v
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https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/dda4a13595c215e75b387bb29038b4e0.pdf
31d5e26ef7ecedca01efe1635bddfa1b
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans' History Project
Steve Pullen
Vietnam War
45 minutes 11 seconds
(00:00:18) Early Life
-He was born on Ramey Air Force Base, Puerto Rico
-His father was an Air Force pilot
-They moved around a lot when he was growing up
-His father had deployments in Missouri, California, South Carolina, France and England
-The place they wound up at was Homestead Air Force Base, Florida
-His father flew fighter jets, specifically the F-100 Super Sabre
-He also flew F-105 fighters out of Thailand during the Vietnam War
-He had multiple tours and wound up flying one hundred missions all toll
-He was living in Homestead, Florida when he graduated from high school
-From high school he went to the University of Miami on a football scholarship
-Felt out of his league playing on a college team
-Part of the scholarship meant taking Reserve Officer Training Corps (ROTC)
-Once he dropped ROTC he was eligible to be drafted
(00:02:12) Getting Drafted
-Two weeks after dropping out of ROTC he was drafted into the Army
-This was on April 18, 1968
-He was upset by this development for a variety of reasons
-He knew a guy from his high school football team who had been killed in Vietnam
-Hammered home the reality that he could die in Vietnam
-He did not support the war
-He felt that it was his duty to go though, so he went
(00:03:32) Training
-The first stop was basic training at Fort Jackson, South Carolina
-From there he went to Fort Dix, New Jersey for advanced infantry training (AIT)
-After AIT he was selected for Officers' Candidate School (OCS)
-He took that course at Fort Benning, Georgia
-His specialization in AIT was specifically as an infantryman
-The OCS course lasted twenty three weeks
-Graduated from Fort Benning, Georgia on March 15, 1969
-On top of those courses he also completed airborne (paratrooper) school
-Completing airborne school allowed him to take Ranger/Pathfinder School
-After completing the various schools he learned about flight school and enrolled in that
-It was a 9 month course and he hoped that by time he was done the war would be over
-From flight school he was selected to go into Cobra Transition School
-This meant learning how to fly Cobra attack helicopters
-Cobra Transition School was another month of training
-After completing Cobra Transition School he received orders to go to Vietnam
�(00:04:54) Arrival and Assignment in Vietnam
-His initial assignment in Vietnam was to be with the 1st Cavalry Division
-The day before going to his unit he was reassigned to the 101st Airborne Division
-He was sent to Phu Bai to join up with his unit
-He wanted to go into a Cobra Aerial Rocket Artillery (ARA) unit
-He was offered the chance to go into air cavalry
-This meant that they had both Cobras (attack helicopters) and Hueys (troop helicopters)
-Upon entering the air cavalry he was assigned to B Troop of the 2nd of the 17th
-He was specifically assigned to an aero-rifle platoon as its platoon leader
-Eighteen man platoon
-Meant that he wouldn't get to fly as a Cobra pilot
-There was a surplus of Cobra pilots at the time
-Because of this higher ranking men got picked first
-Wound up spending five months (May-September 1970) as the aero-rifle platoon's leader
(00:08:58) Action in the A Shau Valley
-As a platoon leader he had a significant number of experiences in Vietnam
-The most significant experiences were during the Ripcord Campaign
-One of the more major occurrences was in the A Shau Valley
-He and his platoon were able to capture a 37mm North Vietnamese artillery piece
-When it came time to be extracted they were only able to take back the barrel
-The entire piece was too heavy for a helicopter to lift
(00:10:08) The Battle of Firebase Ripcord
-During the Battle of Ripcord he remembers being sent out into the field
-While in the field they discovered a communication cable
-When they reported their discovery they were ordered to secure it
-Shortly before this a rifle company had been forced out of the area
-They were expected to secure the area with an eighteen man platoon
-A three man intelligence team was sent in to tap the wire
-Consisted of one Vietnamese man, a translator, and an American sergeant first class
-The intelligence team discovered that there was a North Vietnamese regiment in the area
-A regiment is anywhere from a few hundred, to a few thousand, soldiers
-They called in for extraction and the initial request was denied
-As they sat out in the field they witnessed the North Vietnamese beginning to mortar Ripcord
-They were eventually pulled out just as a North Vietnamese team was being sent to investigate
-Able to destroy the cable before leaving the area
-Later discovered that there were actually two North Vietnamese regiments in the area
(00:15:22) Air Crew Recovery and Rescue Mission
-They routinely had to recover the bodies of downed air crews
-One mission was a search and rescue mission involving an Army Ranger team
-A helicopter had been shot down with Rangers onboard
-His platoon was sent in to rescue them
-When they arrived at the landing zone the enemy was still in the area
-Upon arrival they immediately began to receive incoming fire
-Out of the four helicopters, only two helicopters could safely drop off the troops
-This meant that eleven men were expected to secure the landing zone
-The helicopter pilot and the Rangers were safely extracted
�-At that point he and the other men had to secure the landing zone so they could be extracted
-Eventually got pulled out hanging off of rope ladders from helicopters
-Only two men received minor wounds, and no one was killed
-Securing that landing zone was the only major firefight he was in
-The enemy was so close he could see their helmets in the trees
-Always felt an obligation to recover, or rescue, air cavalry pilots and crew members
-Knew that they would always save him if necessary
-When he became a helicopter pilot he was shot down and was saved by them
-One time a pilot defied a direct order, just to save him
(00:20:21) Overview of Aero-Rifle Platoon Missions
-Primary mission was always reconnaissance
-Search enemy bodies for any signs of information that might be useful
-Air craft recovery was their secondary mission
-If a helicopter was shot down they would secure the location and have it extracted
-Air crew and Ranger body recovery and rescue was their tertiary mission
-One instance in May 1970 where they had to recover the bodies of five Rangers
-Heavily demoralizing to lose five Rangers
-It was always exhilarating rappelling out of a helicopter
-Getting pulled out on a rope ladder was always a tense experience
-Never got hurt and credits that to the skillful flying of the helicopter pilots
(00:23:04) Assignment to the Scout Platoon
-After being the platoon leader for five months he was promised a reassignment to a Cobra
-It was not only a better combat position, but it meant better living conditions
-In the rifle company their quarters on base were next to the toilets and the dump
-They also had to deal with water running downhill into their quarters
-Helicopter pilots lived at the top of the hill and didn’t have to deal with any of that
-He was assigned to a scout platoon flying the OH-6 “Loach” helicopter
-At the time he was not certified to fly a “Loach”
-To qualify he flew five hours with an instructor, and five hours alone
-He was not happy about the assignment for a variety of reasons
-Scouts had a high frequency of being shot down
-The scout pilots had to adopt a grim mindset to make it through the assignment
-Ran into one pilot who convinced himself that he was already dead
-Veteran pilots advised him to get out of the scout platoon sooner as opposed to later
-During his time with the scout platoon multiple, entire scout crews were killed in action
(00:27:42) Flying Missions in Laos
-During Lam Son 719 he was moved to A Troop to help fly scouting missions
-Lam Son 719 was the South Vietnamese invasion of Laos backed by the U.S. in 1971
-He was moved to A Troop because most of their scout pilots had lost
-While flying missions into Laos scouts were escorted by Cobra helicopters
-The Cobras took consistent losses because they had to fly low next to the OH-6s
-Flying low meant the Cobras were more susceptible to antiaircraft fire
-Without the protection from the Cobra the OH-6 was left completely exposed to fire
-On top of that the Cobras had to fly with lighter weapons, so they could move faster
-The primary mission was always to find and mark enemy positions for ground troops
-Both in Laos and in Vietnam
�(00:30:12) End of His First Tour in Vietnam
-Looking back he didn’t feel that he was a good scout pilot
-His aircraft would take a lot of enemy fire
-Attributes that to having a slow reaction time
-He flew with the scout platoon for six months
-At the end of those six months the platoon was short on pilots
-As a result he volunteered to fly as a scout for sixty more days
-After flying with the scouts that was the end of his first tour in Vietnam
(00:31:59) Coming Home and Redeployment to Vietnam
-After his first tour he returned home and was assigned to Fort Bragg, North Carolina
-At Fort Bragg he served as a rifle company commander with the rank of captain
-He stayed at Fort Bragg for six months
-During his time he got in serious trouble
-His options were to be court martialed, or sent back to Vietnam
-He chose the court martial because he felt he could defend himself
-The battalion commander overruled his decision and sent him back to Vietnam
(00:33:00) Returning to Vietnam
-Upon returning to Vietnam he rejoined B Troop of the 2nd of the 17th
-Soon after he returned he was informed that the 101st Airborne Division was going home
-Called his parents and told them that he was coming home
-In the meantime he was called up to the base’s headquarters
-Informed that he would be staying in Vietnam as a replacement for another troop
-His new assignment would be to F Troop in the 4th Cavalry
(00:35:05) Serving with the 4th Cavalry
-He reported to the 4th Cavalry which was stationed on the other side of Phu Bai
-He returned to flying the OH-6 “Loach” as a scout pilot
-Their initial base was on a beach until the Easter Offensive began
-On March 30, 1972 the North Vietnamese began the Easter Offensive
-F Troop was sent to help stop the advance of the North Vietnamese
-After two months he was shot down and severely wounded
-Upon being wounded he was evacuated from Vietnam and sent back to the United States
(00:37:44) Returning to the United States
-After being evacuated he was placed in a Veterans’ Affairs Hospital in Miami, Florida
-Stayed there for six months getting healed
-After leaving the hospital he was allowed to go home for three months
-After the three months he appeared before a flight evaluation board
-Decided that he was medically unfit to fly and was removed from flight status
(00:38:10) Military Career
-Still able to successfully complete Class 2 Flight Physical
-This meant that he could still carry out paratrooper missions
-Also allowed him to continue with his military career
-Spent ten years serving with the infantry
-Spent twenty years in the Special Forces
-During his later military career got to see interesting parts of the world
-His military career allowed him to shake hands with two U.S. presidents
-President Carter and President Reagan
�-Considers that the highlight of his military career
-He was involved in the Invasion of Grenada in 1983
-He was involved in the Invasion of Panama (December 1989-January 1990)
-During his career he saw action in Vietnam, Grenada, Panama, Somalia, Bosnia, and Iraq
-For Iraq it was both during the Gulf War and the War in Iraq
-While in the hospital he got to the point where he wanted to die
-Other soldiers wouldn’t let him give up on life
-Their attitude and encouragement inspired him to continue with his military career
-It led to him realizing that he wanted to forge a stronger bond with his comrades
-He doesn’t regret making a career out of the Army
-He feels comfortable with, and bonded to, the men that he has served with
-He stayed in the Army because of the men that he was able to serve with
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
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1914-
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Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
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Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
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RHC-27
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eng
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
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RHC-27_PullenS1688V
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Pullen, Steve (Interview outline and video), 2014
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2014-10-10
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Steve Pullen was born on Ramey Air Force Base, Puerto Rico, where his father was serving at the time. His family eventually settled in Florida, where he finished high school and started college, but his status changed and he was drafted into the Army in 1968. He opted for officer training, and then trained to fly Cobra attack helicopters. Sent to Vietnam in 1970, he was assigned to lead an aerorifle platoon in the 2/17 Cavalry in the 101st Airborne Division. He did this between May and September, 1970, and participated in the Ripcord campaign. He then became a scout helicopter pilot for another six months, participating in the Lam Son 719 operation in Laos in 1971. He returned fora second tour in 1972, again as a scout helicopter pilot, and was there during the 1972 offensive, and served with F Troop of the 4th Cavalry until he was wounded. He spent another thirty years in the Army, including twenty in the Special Forces, and served in Grenada, Bosnia, Somalia and Iraq.
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Pullen, Steve
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McGregor, Michael (Interviewer)
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Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American
United States. Army
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
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eng
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a>
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
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https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2b49d5b3b6be2ca713f8ab481432f023.pdf
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PDF Text
Text
PUTNAM TOWNSHIP
MASTER PLAN
Adopted May 8, 1996
Planning Commission
Ron Kleinow, Chairman
Frank Gazdecki
Bernard Heenan
Richard Bennett
Aaron Reavis
Assisted by
Carlisle/Wortman Associates, Inc.
111 North Main Street
Ann Arbor, MI 48104
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PUTNAM TOWNSHIP
LIVINGSTON COUNTY, MICHIGAN
Memorandum of a Resolution adopted at a regular meeting of the Planning Commission
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of Putnam Township, County of Livingston, Michigan held in the Township Hall, on
May 8, 1996.
PRESENT:
Kleinow, Gazdecki, Heenan, Bennett, Reavis
ABSENT:
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The following preamble and resolution was offered by Commissioner Heenan .
WHEREAS, the Putnam Township Planning Commission recognizes the need to
formulate and adopt a Township Master Plan including establishment and support of a
Land Use Plan as described in this document
NOW, 1HEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED that:
(1)
The Putnam Township Planning Commission hereby adopts the Master Plan
including the Land Use Plan and Land Use Map.
(2)
A certified copy of the Land Use Plan portion of the Plan be forwarded to the
Livingston County Planning Department for filing.
(3)
All resolutions and parts of resolutions insofar as they conflict with the provisions
of this resolution be and the same hereby are rescinded.
AYES:
NAYS:
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RESOLUTION DECLARED ADOPTED
RON KLEINOW, Chairman
Planning Commission
FRANK GAZDECKI, Secretary
Planning Commission
�TABLE OF CONTENTS
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I n t r o d u c t,i o n .......................................................... .
1
What is Planning .................................................... .
How is the Plan to be used ........................................ .
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Studies ............................................... .
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Populatio~ ......... ·: ·: ·: . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Commumty Fac1bt1es........................................ ........
Natural Re.source Inventory and Capability......................
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III.
Goals, Objectives, Policies.....................................
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IV.
Master Plan .......................................................... .
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I...and Use Plan ...................................................... .
Circulation Plan ..................................................... .
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V. Implementation.........................................................
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Programs. Policies and Action.....................................
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II.
Background
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INTRODUCTION
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INTRODUCTION
What is Planning?
Planning is a process which involves the conscious selection of policy choices relating to land use,
growth and development. in the community. The Master Plan is the only official Putnam Township
document which sets forth policies for the future of the community .
The Township Planning Commission derives its authority to prepare a Master Plan from the
Township Rural Zoning Act, P.A. 184 of 1943. The Act states:
Section 3 .
The zoning ordinance shall be based upon a plan designed to promote the
public health, safety, and general welfare; to encourage the use of lands in accordance with
their character and adaptability, and to limit the improper use of land; to conserve natural
resources and energy; to meet the needs of the state's residents for food, fiber and other
natural resources, places of residence, recreation, industry, trade, service, and other uses
of land.
The Township Planning Commission shall adopt and file with the
Section 7.
Township Board recommendations as to a zone plan for the unincorporated portions of the
Township as a whole which plan shall be based upon an inventory of conditions pertinent
to zoning in the Township and Section 3.
How Is The Plan to be Used?
The Plan serves many functions and is to be used in a variety of ways:
1)
The Plan is a general statement of the Township's goals and policies. It provides a
single, comprehensive view of the community's desires for the future.
2)
The Plan serves as an aid in daily decision-making. The goals and policies outlined
in the Plan guide the Planning Commission and Township Board in their
deliberations on zoning, subdivision, capital improvements and other matters
relating to land use and development The Plan provides a stable, long-term basis
for decision-making which will provide a balance of high and low density housing,
commercial, industrial and agricultural land use and an orderly process for land use
planning.
Putnam Township Master Plari
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3)
The Plan provides the statutory basis upon which zoning decisions are based. The
Township Rural Zoning Act (P.A. 184 of 1943, as amended) requires that the
zoning ordinance be based upon a plan designed to promote the public health,
safety and general welfare. It is important to note that the Master Plan and
accompa.Qying maps do not replace other Township Ordinances, specifically the
Zoning Ordinance and Map. Zoning is only one of the many legal devices used to
implement the Master Plan.
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4)
The Plan attempts to coordinate public improvements and private developments.
For example, public investments such as road or sewer and water improvements
should be located in areas identified in the Plan as resulting in the greatest benefit to
the Township and its residents.
5)
Finally, the Plan serves as an educational tool and gives citizens, property owners,
developers and adjacent communities a clear indication of the Township's direction
for the future.
In summation, the Putnam Township Master Plan is the only officially adopted document which
sets forth an agenda for the achievement of goals and policies. It is a long range statement of
general goals and policies aimed at the unified and coordinated development of the Township. It
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helps develop a balance of orderly change in a deliberate and controlled manner which permits
controlled growth. As such, it provides the basis upon which zoning and land use decisions are
made .
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Pulnam Township Master Plan
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BACKGROUND STUDIES
Population
Community Facilities
Natural Resources Inventory and Capability
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POPULATION
Less than 60 miles from downtown Detroit, Putnam Township offers residents a balance between
protected open spaces, rural living, and newly developing rural/suburban neighborhoods. As
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development continues , to move further away from Detroit, the outlying counties in the
southeastern portion of Michigan are witnessing a population boom. Livingston County grew in
population more than 15% between 1980 and 1990, and is growing even faster in this decade. As
Table #1 shows, Livingston County is clearly the fastest growing area in the region.
TABLE 1
PUTNAM TOWNSHIP
f21111lill211
~QIIDlI
Persons Per
Occupied
Housing
Qi:i:11»1!:d H211~IDI: !.!1111:i
ll.D.ll
,.,
April I,
1990
July 1,
1993
Change
%
Number
115,645
125,523
9,879
8.5%
717,400
732,675
15,274
133,600
136,886
3,285
1,083,592
1990
1993
1990
July I,
1993
Change
Number
%
Livingston
2.94
2.88
38,887
43,126
4,239
10.9%
2.1%
Macomb
2.68
2.62
264,991
277,739
12,748
4.8%
2.5%
Monroe
2.84
2.78
46,508
48,705
2,197
4.7%
1,133,993 50,400
4.7%
Oakland
2.61
2.62
410,488
428,991
18,503
4.5%
145,607
151,712
6,104
4.2%
SL Clair
2.73
2.71
52,882
55,608
2,726
5.2%
282.937
289,918
6,981
2.5%
Washtenaw
2.50
2.46
104,528
109,410
4,882
4.7%
2,111,687 2,090,160 -21.527
-1.0%
Wayne
2.67
2.63
780,535
783,639
3,104
0.4%
4,590.468 4,660,867 70.396
1.5%
Re ion
2.66
2.63
1,698,819
1,747,217 48,398
April l,
2.8%
Source: U.S. Bureau of the Census
Putnam Township is currently growing at half the rate of the overall county . As Table #2 shows,
Putnam has already witnessed explosive growth rates. In the 70s, the township grew at an
impressive 74% in total population .
Putnam Township Mastu Plan
Page3
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TABLE2
PUTNAM TOWNSHIP
POPULATION: HISTORICAL PROFILE (1920-1990)
(Source: Livingston County Planning)
Population
5000
1920
1930
1940
1950
1960
1970
1980
1990
For Putnam Township to avoid being another community walled in by urban sprawl, it is vital to
define the land uses, services, and overall elements of community character that are important to
preserve the rural atmosphere. Change is inevitable. It is how change is managed and facilitated
that determine whether Putnam Township will continue to be the attractive community it is today,
and why many newcomers are deciding to call it home .
It is for this reason that a Master Plan, complete with background studies, citizen based goals and
objectives, is formulated and enacted. It is a continual process that attempts to inform citizens of
trends affecting their community and region, and hopefully allows for carefully management of the
decision making process for growth and change within the township .
Regional Setting
Located on the southern border of Livingston County, Putnam Township is 14 miles Northwest of
Ann Arbor, 45 miles west of Detroit, and 45 miles east of Lansing. The main access road to
Putnam Township is M 36. 12 miles to the east, is US 23, and 6 miles to the North is Interstate
96 .
Putnam Township has seen steady growth in total population in each of the last three census
counts. There are two major factors that help to explain Putnam Township's population growth;
Developable Land
The majority of developable land (which does not include recreational holdings) in Putnam
Township is either vacant, agricultural, or is contained in large lot holdings. With this arrangement
ofland, growth can continue at its current rate for many years to come.
Putnam Township Masta Plan
Page4
�Youn~ Population
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The average age of a resident in Putnam Township was 27.14 in 1980, 31.8 in 1990, and is not
expected to rise much if any in the coming decades according to SEMCOG small area forecasts.
While forecast are not always right about the exact numbers, the tends are usually correctly
identified. Compared to' many of the older established communities closer to Detroit, Putnam's
average age is relatively youthful, more than a full year less than the county median. By
comparison, many older communities in Wayne County, are expected to have an average age of
over 38 by the year 2010.
There are two factors influencing the relatively young median age. As a developing area, Putnam
offers affordable housing options to first time home buyers. In tum the first time home buyers are
often young families who have children. The combination of younger homeowners, and children,
leads to a youthful median age for the Township .
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Development Patterns / Location
As Table #3 shows, the Livingston communities furthest from Detroit have shown the greatest
growth rates in the last three years. Communities such as Handy Township and Iosco Township
had less than 3000 residents in 1990, and are just at the beginning of a new growth curve.
However, the communities closer to Detroit, with major highway access, have the greatest gains in
total population growth. Brighton Township, Green Oak Township, Hamburg Township and
Genoa Township each gained more than a thousand new residents in the last four years according
to SEMCOG estimates based on occupied housing units.
PUlnam Township Master Plan
Page5
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Putnam Township is different. It does not have major highway access other than M -36, yet has
already experienced significant growing pains. The Township is strategically located halfway
between Lansing and Detroit. Toe Township is close enough for visiting offices in either city but
far enough away to offer a rural lifestyle. The Village of Pinckney also acts as a focal point for
area population. The Village bas seen growth rates in excess of 15% and will be a factor in the
continued growth of tJ.ie Township. As surrounding communities continue to grow at rates of 20%
and more, development pressures will increase in Putnam Township. As Americans continue to
move to more rural settings, and are willing to commute longer distances, Putnam will continue to
grow .
TABLE 3
PUTNAM TOWNSHIP
POPULATION BY REGION
(Source: U.S. Census)
1980
1990
% Change
Putnam Township
4253
4580
7.7
Village of Pinckney
1390
1603
15.3
Brighton Township
11222
14815
32.0
9261
10820
16.8
Green Oak
10802
11604
7.4
Hamburg
11318
13083
15.6
Iosco
1436
1567
9.1
Marion
4754
4918
3.4
Unadilla
2874
2949
2.6
100289
115645
15.3
Genoa
Livinszston Co.
Other Factors
Working against the growth in population is the nation wide trend of fewer persons per household
(pph). In Putnam Township, the pph count has dropped every year it has been measured, either
by the U.S .. Census, or SEMCOG counts. Table #4 shows that between the last two full census
counts, the pph has dropped from 3.17 to 3.0, a 6% decrease. It may not seem significant, but for
every 1000 households, there are 170 fewer people living in them today as compared to 1980.
Current estimates show on average fewer than 3 persons per household within the Township. By
the year 2010, the pph for Putnam Township is expected to drop to 2.5 pph.
Pianam Township Mas~r Plan
Page6
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TABLE4
PUTNAM TOWNSHIP
POPULATION: PERSONS PER HOUSEHOLD
(Source: U.S. Census and SEMCOG)
Persons
3 .17
3 .2
3 .1
3
2 .9
2.8
2.71 (Forecast)
2 .7
2 .6
2 .5
2 .4
1995
1990 ·
1980
While fewer people will be living in the new homes being built today, more people are moving into
the community than are lost by the decreasing pph. Chart #5 shows the building permit activity
over the last eight years. Tracking the type and number of building permits is a reliable method for
determining population trends. Putnam Township has had a steady number of units constructed
every year. There have been no sudden jumps or calm periods which suggests that a consistent
demand should continue.
TABLES
PUTNAM TOWNSHIP
BUILDING ACTIVITY 1987-1994 (NEW RESIDENTIAL UNITS)
(Source: SEMCOG)
60
50
40
30
20
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0
1987
1988
1989
1990
1991
1992
1993
1994
Population Projections
The forecasts of population, in spite of the limitations surrounding the forecasting process, fonn
key elements in the process of preparing a general development plan for Putnam Township. The
forecasts establish the range of needs, in terms of people, land areas, and facilities which must be
planned for. The forecasts indicate the magnitude of change which a community can reasonably
P111nam Township Master Plan
Page7
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expect to face as well as those elements in the community's structure likely to undergo pressures
on capacities and for which expansion or replacement can be expected.
Population and housing projections are reflected in the following tables. Three methods were used
to project future population. This includes average growth rate, recent construction, and
SEMCOG Small Area Forecasts. Each projection method is indicated in Table 6.
TABLE6
PUTNAM TOWNSHIP
COMPARISON OF POPULATION PROJECTION METHODS
7000
6000
5000
represenis range
of forecasting
methods .
4253
4000
3000
2000
1000
0
1960
1970
Average Growth
Rate Method
1980
1990
2010
2000
SEMCOG
Recent
Construction
Forecast
Forecast
Alternative Population Projections
Putnam Township, Livingston County
Average Growth Rate
Method
Recent Construction
Forecast
SEMCOG Forecast
4580
4580
4580
(actual)
(actual)
(actual)
2000
5616
5727
2010
6652
6873
5634
6985
1990
1. Average Growth Rate is based on average population growth in ten year intervals from 1960 to
1990.
Puznam Township Master Plan
Page8
�2. Recent Construction is based on the average rate of building pennits granted between 1987 and
1993. The annual average rate of residential building permits (41.7) is then multiplied by
the average number of persons per dwelling unit (2.75). The product is the number of new
persons that can be expected each year by way of new construction (114.675).
3. SEMCOG Forecast - Based on SEMCOG Regional Development Forecast -- Version '89
1980-2010.
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TABLE7
PUTNAM TOWNSHIP
TOTAL HOUSEHOLDS FORECAST
(Source: SEMCOG)
2,830
3000
2500
2000
1500
1000
500
0
1980
1990
2000
2010
TABLE S
PUTNAM TOWNSHIP
HOUSING VALVES (MEDIAN VALUE $84,300)
(Source: U.S. Census - 1995)
800
733
700
600
500
400
300
200
100
21
6
150,000-
200,000-
300,000
199,999
299,999
+
0
0-49,999
50,000-
99.999
Putnam Township Master Plan
100,000149,999
Page9
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COMMUNITY FACILITIES
Fire Service
The Putnam Township Fire Department has 27 trained, paid on call firemen, with an additional 10
apprentices on call There
are three pumps and a full complement of emergency equipment that
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travels with each responding squad. The majority of calls have been reached within 10 minutes.
In the last year, the fire department responded to 330 calls, of which 30 were emergency related.
The Township is also serviced by both the Livingston County Mutual Aid, and the Washtenaw
Mutual Aid service for backup. These services offer combined fire and emergency capabilities.
While current capabilities fall within accepted, Insurance Standard Operations (ISO) standards for
response times in rural areas, the Township is considering the purchase of a new fire engine in
order to replace aging equipment and to better respond to Township growth and changing needs .
It may also be necessary for the Township to acquire land for a future Fire Hall if or when
population increases warrant additional services.
Schools
Over 95 % of the township is serviced by Pinckney- Putnam Township School System. The
remaining portion, a small section on the northern boundary is serviced by Howell Public Schools.
As of 1994, there were 3951 students in the Pinckney system, as compared to just 3425 in 1990,
and 3709 in 1979. Two schools are currently located within the Township. These are Farley
Elementary, located on Farley Road just north of M-36 and Village Elementary, located on the west
side of the Village. A $5,000,000 bond issue was passed in 1991 for the upkeep and addition of
needed educational space. A middle school is expected to be built in the Township in the next few
years in order to accommodate anticipated growth in the School District
Police
Putnam Township is served by the Pinckney Police Department under agreement between the
Village of Pinckney and the Township. There are 2 squad cars that are on an annual maintenance
plan. To date, the Police Department has been responsive to the Township's changing needs and
has provided excellent police protection for Township residents.
Open Space
The state of Michigan owns over 3,400 acres, or approximately 15% of all land areas within
Putnam Township. Due to this vast area of public land, the Township is limited in the amount of
land available for development and also restricted in the amount of property truces available to
expand community facilities. The bulk of State lands are contained in two units, Pinckney
Recreation.µ Area and Gregory Game Area. The Pinckney Recreation Area. covers over 10,000
Putnam Township Master Plan
Page 10
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acres in all, spanning lower Livingston County and Northern Washtenaw County. While pans of
the recreation area offers traditional park activities such as hiking, shuffelboard. basketball, ball
fields, camping at sanctioned campgrounds, and water sports on more than 3 lakes, the vast
majority of State Recreation land within the Putnam Township remains undeveloped. The off road
biking trails have been cited by Outside Magazine as one of the
best trails systems in the country.
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Table 9 charts the growth in attendance to the park in the past few years.
TABLE 9
PINCKNEY RECREATIONAL AREA ANNUAL ATTENDANCE
l28i
1286
12.81
128.a
12.82.
521,400
512,200
642 500
627,500
537,500
.l22Q
592 000
.1221.
734 700
.1222
1223.
677,800
735,500
Source: MDNR
Gregory Game area offers Putnam Township residents a completely different natural experience.
Game area lands in Michigan are purchased through hunting and fishing licenses. and a 11 %
excise tax on hunting equipment. At approximately 740 acres, the Gregory Game areas mission is
to provide wildlife and habitat restoration, while providing regulated and controlled hunting
options. There are no maintained trails, and only one boat ramp on Duck Lake to preserve the
extensive wetlands surrounding the lake. Camping is permitted, but only between October 1 through April 1. No off road vehicles, dirt bikes or horses are permitted within the game area
lands. The recent sightings of a bald eagle and a osprey in the last year are testimony to the
successful management of the Gregory Game area
Traffic
Table # 10 lists the most recent traffic information available from the Michigan Department of
Transportations, and the Livingston County Road Commission. Altogether, Putnam Township
has almost 70 miles of roads, of which more than half are classified as County Local As of March
1995, almost 70% of Putnam Township's roads were still gravel. M 36 accounts for almost half
of the paved mileage within the Township.
Putnam Township Masur Plan
Page 11
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1111
TABLE 10
LIVINGSTON COUNTY ROAD COMMISSION 24-HOUR TRAFFIC COUNTS FOR
PUTNAM TOWNSHIP
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Class
L= Local
P- Primarv
The busiest roads within the Township are the Township's paved thorofares. This includes M-36,
Dexter Pinckney, D-19, and Patterson Lake Road. Traffic is at times especially busy on M-36 and
will someday require re-design if traffic volumes continue to rise. Other Township primary and
local roads will also need repair and improvement. Shortage of funding by the Livingston County
Pumam Town.ship Master Plan
Page 12
�Road Commission and township revenues place severe limitations upon road improvement
expendirures. Nevertheless, many existing roads are in disrepair and as traffic values rise, funds
will be needed for necessary improvements.
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The Patterson Lake Bridge replacement represents one of the few major planned traffic
improvements within the Township. It's currently status shows it to be in the design stage.
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Economic Base
The State F.qualization Value (S.E.V) is a commonly used index to chart a community's growth.
Table 11 shows the S.E.V. for all Personal and Real property .
TABLE 11
STATE EQUALIZED VALUE PERSONAL AND REAL
firu:
1990
1991
1992
1993
1994
1995
To1aJ.
% Chanee Year Before
91,153,157
100,943,759
104,108,565
123,816,249
129,479,535
138,046,200
10.7
3.1
18.9
4.5
6.6
Source: County of Livingston 1994 F.qualization Analysis
Putnam Townsmp Master Plan
Page 13
�NATURAL RESOURCES INVENTORY AND CAPABILITY
The natural environment of Putnam Township offers both opportunities and limitations on the type
and extent of future development Certain areas are unsuitable for septic systems, unstable for
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building foundations, poorly drained and susceptible to flooding. While these factors place
restrictions upon development, other natural resource factors present opportunities for
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development
It is helpful to examine these natural resource factors in detail to detennine both the opportunities
and constraints to future development This examination involves an inventory of resource factors,
and a determination of the capability of the natural resource base to support future development
Soils
Pumam Township sewage needs are served by septic fields. Because of the reliance of septic
systems in the Township, soils become an important element in the location of future land uses.
Land uses which produce large volumes of sewage are not compatible with septic systems (i.e.,
large multi-family residential development and heavy industrial uses).
In order to minimize construction costs and risks to the environment, it is desirable for future
development to be constructed upon sites with suitable soils. Poor soils present problems such as
poor foundation stability and septic field failure. The three major soil characteristics considered in
the analysis of soil conditions are drainage, foundation stability, and septic suitability. Also
considered is site topography. Grades exceeding twelve percent have been detennined to be
unsuitable for septic fields in this part of Michigan.
The Livingston County Soil Survey provides a soils map showing the generalized areas of suitable
and unsuitable areas for septic field disposal. The unsuitable areas contain high concentrations of
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clays and/or organics. Many of these areas are also inundated by high water table or may also
considered to be wetlands. The suitable areas are favorable for septic field use and offer good
percolation because of high concentrations of sands and loamy sands. About one third of Pumam
Township's land is unsuitable for development The unsuitable portion is evenly distibuted
throughout the Township. Sections 16, 17, and 18 seem best suited for higher density
development due to existing soil conditions and proximity to M-36. The overall land capability
pattern of Pumam Township suggests a continued rural density for all other sections. The Table
provided below lists the soils that have serous limitations for septic field location in theTownship.
Puinam Township Mastu Plan
PageU
�SOIL LIMITATIONS FOR
SEPTIC FIELD LOCATION
(Severe Limitations)
Boyer-Oshtemo
BTE,BTF
Breckenrid_ge
Bv
By
Brookston
Carlisle
Cc
Colwood
Cr
CvA, CvB,
Conover
CxA
Edwards
Ed
FrE, FrF
Fox-Bover
Gilford
Gd
Hillside
HiE
Houghton
Ho
Lamson
Le
Linwood
1m
Locke
LoB
Metamora
MiB
MoE,MoF
Miami
Minora
MwB
Pewamo
Pc
Rifle
Rf
Sebawa
Se
Tawas
Tm
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Groundwater
Putnam Township, outside of the Village area, relies completely on private wells for drinking
water. According to an official at the Livingston County Environmental Health Department, wells
are on average between 60 - 100 feet in depth in the Township. Environmental Health reported no
unusual problems regarding wells in either water quality or quantity.
Protecting groundwater should be a high priority in Putnam Township. The most effective means
of groundwater protection is prevention and education. A groundwater education program for
Township residents and business owners should be established to emphasize the importance of
groundwater and to outline methods of protecting this resource. This is especially important for
commercial and industrial sites which could store or use chemicals which if improperly used, could
damage underground water supplies. Other methods for groundwater protection are included in
the Wetland Protection Study developed by the Huron River Watershed Council.
Sites of environmental contamination threaten groundwater supplies. There are no contamination
sites identified by the Michigan Department of Natural Resources (MDNR) in Putnam Township
under the P .A 307 listing.
Purnam Township Mastu Plan
Page 15
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Slopes
The surface geology of the Township was formed 10,000 to 12,000 years ago when glacial
activity deposited rock, soil and large blocks of ice. The ice blocks embedded within the soils
eventually melted and left depressions which are today's lakes and interconnecting creeks.
Areas that contain severe slopes and ravines should remain undisturbed. These areas should be
viewed as natural and aesthetic open space areas. If development should occur, sensitive site
planning would be required along these slopes to prevent soil erosion. Care must be taken to
ensure that extensive grading is minimized and to ensure that other natural features such as
vegetation and topsoil are retained.
The Township's topography ranges from 859' to just under 1100' above sea level. The majority
of hills, found in the southwest section are preserved in the Pinckney Recreation area and
University of Michigan Lands. Most of the Township has gently sloping land at an elevation
between 930' - 950'.
Wetlands and Floodplains
Currently the Township relies on the Wetlands Protection Act for the regulation and preservation of
wetlands. The Wetlands Protection Act 203 of 1979 was developed by the State of Michigan to
institute stringent rules for any development within· wetland areas. The Act regulates; filling,
draining, dredging and construction within any wetland area.
Wetland soils have a frequent presence of water saturation. They also contain heavy concentration
Putnam Township Master Plan
Page 16
�of organic material such as peat, marl and decomposed vegetation. These soils are unsuitable for
development but are important for supporting wetland vegetation and fish and wildlife habitat.
They are also valuable for filtering sediment out of groundwater run off.
Putnam Township contains numerous areas of regulated wetlands. These wetlands have been
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identified by the MDNR and the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service. Development is discouraged in
wetland areas. The wetlands map provided should be used to help guide development decisions,
however, actual wetland location determinations will be required on a site by site basis. The
wetlands include all areas inventoried as wetlands in the Michigan Resource Wormation System
(MIRIS). These wetland and floodplain areas are illustrated in Map 1.
Honey Creek, a tributary of the Huron River. and its associated floodplains, bisect the Township
from the northwest to the southeast Generally, floodplains are located adjacent to the many lakes,
Honey Creek, and the Portage River. Approximately twenty-five percent of the total land area of
Putnam is classified as wetlands. This estimate includes all water bodies such as creeks, lakes,
and rivers .
P111nam Township Master Plan
Page 17
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SHAFEI\ RO .
.
.
..
.
LEGEND
■
Wooded
SPEARS RO .
■
18
17
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□
Shrub.
Scrub
Aquatic Bed,
Emergent
Hydric Soils
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28
WETLANDS
Putnam Toyvn.shi~
Livingston County, Michig~
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Land Capability
The development capability of lands within Putnam Township is illustrated in Map 2. This map is
a composite of the following natural resource characteristics: soils which pose serious limitation to
septic field development, and areas characterized as wetlands and floodplains. The Land
Capability Map offers a generalized indication of which areas within the Township are most
capable and least capable of supporting development based on the above mentioned natural
resource characteristics. The Land Capability Map is useful for general planning purposes;
however, detailed site-specific inventory and analysis information should be required for any
proposed development plans.
FIGURE 1
LAND CAP ABILITY ANALYSIS
Poor Soils for Septic Fields
Floodplains & Wetlands
Land Areas Least Capable of
Support Development
The above referenced chart (Figure 1) shows how the land capability is developed. The map is
produced from a series of overlays which maps development constraints including poor soils,
floodplains, and wetlands. The end result is a composite map showing land areas least capable of
development and land areas most capable of development
Pianam Township Master Plan
Page 19
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LfGENP
D
Land Areas Most Capeble oC
Supporting De..elopmenC
~
Land Areas Least Capable of
~ ~ De~IMIOI
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LAND CAPABILITY
. .
Putnam Toyvnship
L1v1ngston County, Michigan
...----
r:1-[7"0
,.,..,.
.................. ......
a.-.-, .......... ~ ......
�Existing Land Use
Existing land use is presented on Map 3. This provides an inventory of existing uses as
established from both aerial and in the field sources. The category of land uses include:
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Single Family Residential
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Multi Family Residential
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Commercial and Office
-
Institutional
-
Industrial and Industrial Parks
-
Transportation/Communication Utility
-
Cultivated Land
-
Grassland and Brushland
-
Open Wetland
-
Wooded and Wooded Wetland
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Water
-
Extractive and Barren Land
The majority of lands within the Township fall within the cultivated land category and the wooded
and wooded wetland categories. This would attest to the large percentage of open space within the
Township under public (MDNR) and private control. Single family residential use also occupies a
significant percentage of land use especially within the M-36, D-19, and Dexter-Pinckney road
corridors.
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Ill
Ill
Ill
P111nam Township Master Plan
Page21
�11.11.••······
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"t!'JJ!AS.,'
•----
I \I
·-=·•·--'-·--' '.'!•h'--,.IJ
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Single Fn111ily llcsirfe11ti.1f
(inclucii110 111~hile homes)
lffll Mulliplt• I ,11n1fy 11, .. .1d1•11t11il
fll Commercial nnd Office
I ! lns titut1011;i/
m
lndus trinl and Industrial P;irks
■ T ranspor tation/Co111rn u n1cation ill tility
I ] Cu lt ivated Land
!'l
Grosslnnd and 8rusl1lnnd
[_/ Open Wctlnnd
■ W ooded and Wooded Wetl,md
['l
[.
W;iter
/ Extractive and Barren l,rnd
H:1;, .:
1990 LAND USE
I
Putnam Townsh ip
Livingston Cou nty
ii
., r,,
f .,;
( arhsle ASSC'ICl.:l\e~ In(
111 NMh Main $!reel Ann Amo, . M ,ch•Q.10
Commumly Planners and Landscape A1c1,,IecIs
SOU'1CE
SEMCOG
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III
GOALS, OBJECTIVES, POLICIES
�GOALS, OBJECTIVES, POLICIES
In terms relevant to community planning, goals, objectives and policies give the Master Plan the
philosophical guidance it needs to address the present issues and advance plans into the future .
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They are defined as follows:
Goals
are overall broad statements that provide a focus for future discussions.
Policies
are very specific, action-oriented statements that would help a:hieve the
goals and objectives. Policy statements provide justification to revise or
draft new ordinances or regulations or finance specific capital
improvements.
The goals and policies were developed during work sessions with the Putnam Township Planning
Commission which focused on local planning issues and established the purpose for the Master
Plan. Policies, developed separately from the goals, are a listing of issues restated and organized
under each goal (purpose) statement The goals and corresponding policies are presented below.
GOALS
The following statements reflect the primary goals of Putnam Township:
The Township shall strive to maintain the rural residential character which contributes to
making the Township a desirable place to live, work, and play.
The Township shall plan future land uses to be compatible with the natural characteristics,
and the long-term needs of the community. New development shall be well-planned,
complement existing development, and conserve limited natural resources.
The Township shall foster the rural residental opportunities within its boundaries which
provide an attractive setting for residents, and which is compatible with the needs and
comforts of the residents of the community.
The Township shall coordinate growth with the Village of Pinckney, and develop land use
arrangements which compliment existing uses within the Township and Village.
Residential Goal
To guide the development of the Township in a manner which will create, preserve and enhance
the living environment of the existing and future residential areas of the community.
PuJ,wm Township Master Plan
Page23
�Policies
1)
Promote the development of a variety of housing types and residential living
environments based on a sound balance within the community.
2)
promote quality single-family housing at a low and moderate density which
will maintain the rural character of the community.
3)
Provide sufficient open space to serve each dwelling unit either through
generous yard spaces and setbacks or common open space areas.
4)
Restrict medium and high density residential development to areas currently
served by public sanitary sewer and water systems or to areas in close
proximity to the Village of Pinckney.
5)
Encourage a high percentage of home ownership and permanent housing
types.
6)
Separate single-family and multi-family residential areas from nonresidential uses.
7)
Restrict multi-family residential districts and mobile home parks to locations
which have direct access to major thoroughfares.
8)
Discourage haphazard lot splits which result in long narrow parcels or
parcels with substantial amounts of undeveloped land to the rear unless the
low density residential development is consistent with other standards and
ordinances of the community. A maximum lot length to lot width ratio of
4:1 is recommended.
9)
Require that a substantial buffer or landscape planning be provided between
residential areas and conflicting land uses such as commercial or industrial
facilities.
10)
Discourage the development of high density residential projects which will
have a negative impact upon schools or existing tax base.
11)
Encourage the use of a cluster housing option or planned unit development
for parcels which contain natural features such as woodlands or wetlands.
12)
Propose low density land uses in areas where natural resource conditions
are least capable of supporting development
.Purnam Township Mastu Plan
Page 24
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13)
Propose medium density and high density residential uses in natural
resource settings which are capable of supporting development
14)
Consider a cluster housing option to promote the protection of open space
and to offer an alternative to inefficient large lot splitting.
Rural Preservation Goal
The Township shall maintain the rural character and preserve the local characteristics that contribute
to a viable, stable, open space. It shall be the Township's responsibility to encourage the retention
of open space as a means to retain the rural character of the Township .
1)
The Township shall identify prime agricultural lands and prime agricultural soils in
an effort to preserve and retain agricultural use.
2)
The Township shall discourage non-agricultural development of important resource
areas such as wetlands, woodlands and floodplain areas through the Master Land
Use Plan and Zoning Map.
3)
The Township shall regulate lot splits and maintain the Township's Private Road
Ordinance.
4)
The Township shall promote the enrollment of Public Act 116, Farmland and Open
Space Agreements
Lakes and Waterfront
The Township's inland lakes are a significant Township resource and shall be protected from
sources of degradation.
P111nam Township Master Plan
Page 25
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2)
Existing Township zoning ordinance for waterfront properties shall be strictly
enforced regarding minimum lot size, setbacks and land use regulations.
3)
The TownsBip shall promote the activities of the lake associations and their efforts
to maintain water quality, lake management and loading studies.
4)
The Township shall promote efforts to minimize the degradation of water quality
and encourage property owners to control the application of pesticides, fertilizers
and other forms of nutrient loading.
5)
The Township shall promote the protection of natural vegetation along shoreline
areas and prohibit the dredging or filling of wetland areas adjoining waterfront
property.
6)
The Township should minimize overcrowding on lakes and regulate public access
through anti-keyholding or anti-funneling ordinances.
7)
The Township should promote the preservation of a 20' vegetative buffer along
lakes to help filter sediment and contaminants.
8)
Any future sewer improvements undertaken within the Township shall be limited to
lake and waterfront areas only. Future sewer improvements shall only be provided
as a means of protecting the integrity oflake and waterfront areas.
Wetlands
The protection of wetlands is essential to preserve water quality, stabilize storm water runoff,
recharge groundwater and provide wildlife habitats.
1)
The Township shall promote efforts to preserve wetlands in their natural state
and discourage the dredging or filling of wetland areas.
2)
The Township shall review all proposed development in light of potential impact
upon wetland areas.
3)
The Township shall promote the enforcement of Public Act 203, and apprise
property owners or developers of the state and local regulations regarding control of
wetland areas.
Commercial and Industrial Uses
Provide a balance and variety of land uses including, commercial, office and industrial uses
which will compliment existing residential areas and not adversely impact the living
environment of the Township.
Putnam Township Master .Plan
.Page 26
�1)
Strongly encourage transitional land uses (multi-family, office, open space)
between commercial and industrial land uses in existing and future single-family
residential uses.
2)
Require stringent buffer techniques between commercial industrial and residential
uses.
3)
Recognize the importance of the Village of Pinckney as the Township's major
shopping and service area.
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4)
Promote the economic vitality of the Village of Pinckney .
5)
Discourage the development of strip commercial along M-36 which may occur in an
unplanned fashion. Strip commercial may be managed through the following
methods:
Minimize the number of curb cuts along M-36 which may result in
conflicting turning movements and traffic accidents.
Remove unsightly conditions to the amount of continuous hard
surface parking areas and signs.
Reduce the impairment of land values in commercial areas due to
excessive traffic, noise, parking, and lighting glare.
6)
Discourage the introduction of new commercial development beyond the scope
outlined in the Township Master Plan
7)
Cluster commercial and industrial uses near existing commercial centers and prevent
the spread of new non-residential in rural areas.
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Pulnam Township Master Plan
Page 27
�Public Facilities
Maintain and where necessary improve public facilities to provide needed services to Township
residents.
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1)
Coordinate long tenn road improvements with the Livingston County Road
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Commission.
2)
Promote regular road maintenance such as repaving, gravelling and grading.
3)
Encourage the Road Commission to pave the first 100' of gravel roads where they
abut paved roads .
4)
Coordinate solid waste pick up services with the Village of Pinckney and
investigate expanded Township wide solid waste pick up .
5)
Consider establishing a joint TownshipNillage recycling station for the drop off of
pre-sorted recyclables .
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Putnam Township Master Plan
Page28
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IV
MASTER PLAN
�MASTER PLAN
A Master Plan is a statement of community public policy. It is a description of community
aspirations and the "road-map" toward the attainment of the idealized development for Putnam
Township.
The goal and objective statements provide the philosophical basis for the plan and the background
studies become its factual basis. The land use plan attempts to present a strategy to allocate scarce
resources toward the attainment of stated public policies. Thus, the Plan becomes a series of
rational choices among many reasonable alternatives.
Land Use Plan
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The Master Land Use Plan (Map 4), presented on the following page, illustrates the proposed
physical arrangement of land use for the Township. The Land Use Plan serves to translate
community goals into a narrative and ·graphic illustration. It is based largely upon existing land use
patterns, current zoning, market demand and the desires of the residents of Putnam Township.
The Plan was prepared to serve as a policy guide for Putnam Township regarding current issues,
1111
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land use decisions, investments in public improvements and to guide zoning decisions. The Plan
is intended to be a working document which will provide for the orderly development of the
Township, assist the community in its efforts to maintain and enhance a pleasant living
environment while retaining the rural character of the Township.
The Land Use Plan is based upon comments and opinions gathered during the planning process
and input gathered from Planning Commission work sessions/public hearings. To this extent it
reflects general policies towards growth and development within the Township. The following
policies are an important facet in guiding future development in Putnam Township.
The Land Use Plan is based on consideration of a number of factors. Such factors include:
population projections
roadway access and adequacy
availability of utilities
floodplains, wetlands, woodlands and soil characteristics
compatible uses
community goals and objectives
citizen opinions
existing land use
I
existing zoning
Pvrnam Township Masrer Plan
Page 29
�Putnam Township
Future Land Use
I
AO/RlAAA - Agricultural/Open Space/Single Family Large Estate
RlAA - Single Family Medium Estate
RIA - Single Family Estate
RIB - Single Family Rural Residence
RlC - Single Family Suburban Residence
RlD - Single Family High Density Residence
R4 - Apartment Residential
R6 - Mobile Home Park
C 1 - Local Business
C2 - General Busines
Institutional
Recreation-Conservation
~ Village of Pinckney
Water
c=J
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N
A
Prepared by: Livingston County
Department of Planning
October 200 I
o.~5~--o~~~o!iii
.s. . . . . .1 Miles
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In consideration of these factors, various land use categories can be established. The following
land use classifications are used in developing the land use plan for Putnam Township .
PUTNAM TOWNSHIP
LAND USE PLAN CATEGORIES
A-O/R-1-AAA Agricultural-Open Space/ Single Family Large Acreage Estate
Agricultural operations including row crops, pastures, woodlots, livestock
operations, orchards, and horse stables as well as low density rural residential
uses on large lots with an overall density of 1 dwelling unit per 10 acres.
R-1-AA Single Family Medium Acreage Estate
Low density rural residential property served by private septic systems and wells
with lot sizes averaging five to ten aces in size and a recommended minimum
density of at least 5 acres per dwelling unit.
R-1-A Single Family Estate
Low density rural residential uses on lots not serviced by public water or sanitary
systems. Average densities are 1 dwelling unit per two acres .
R-1-B Single Family Rural Residence
Low density residential uses in close proximity to paved roads or public utilities
system. Lot sizes will average one dwelling unit per acre.
R-1-C Single Family Suburban Residence
Medium density residential uses in close proximity to paved roads or public
utilities system. Densities will average one dwelling unit per half acre.
R-1-D Single Family High Density Residence
High density residential uses in close proximity to paved roads or public utilities.
Densities will average three to four dwelling units per acre.
R-4 Apartment Residential
Multi-family land use arrangements at a density of four to six dwelling units per
acre and a minimum lot size of 20,000 square feet. This includes apartment
units, duplexes, attached condominiums and townhouses .
R-6 Mobile Home Park
Manufactured home housing developments.
C-1 Local Business
Commercial retail establishments intended to serve nearby residents.
C-2 General Business
Commercial and retail services intended to serve regional residents and
dependent upon major highway orientation.
Putnam Township Master Plan
Page 31
�R-T-0 Research- Technology- Office
Light indvstrial uses having a low impact upon surrounding land uses.
Recreation/ Conservation
Public or private recreation or conservation lands used for public use,
conservation or private recreation .
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Institutional
All public or quasi-public non-recreational lands such as churches, cemeteries,
public or private schools, governmental and public facilities.
Office
The typical uses in this category consist of, but are not limited to : professional
offices for doctors or dentists, veterinary clinics/hospitals, law offices, planning/
architectural offices, accountants, and other similar uses.
A general description ofland use patterns incorporating discussion of the various categories is
provided in the following section. The land use plan promotes a concept of high density
· residential uses near the Village of Pinckney, while lower density residential is prevalent in the
perimeter of the Township.
AO/ R-1-AAA Agricultural- Open Space/ Single Family Large Acreage Estate
Agricultural- Open Space/ Single Family Large Acreage Estate are primarily restricted to large
acreage parcels north of M-36. This encompasses approximately one-third of the entire
Township where majority of privately owned large acreage is found. The Agricultural/ Open
Space category will include agricultural operations as well as very low density large acreage
residential parcels. This land use designation is also common in areas where limited soil
characteristics place restrictions upon septic field construction. The minimum recommended
lot size for this land use is ten acres.
•
•
R-1-AA Single Family Medium Acreage Estate
R-1-AA Single Family Medium Acreage Estate parcels include rural medium size residential
estates of five acres or more. Many of the land use areas are clustered near Dexter- Pinckney
Road and Pinckney Road areas. There are also sections of single family medium acreage estate
designation south ofM-36 in the western portions of the Township as well as North of
Highland Lake. Larger acreage parcels are recommended due to limited septic field capability
in many of these areas.
R-1-B Single Family Rural Residence
)
R-1-A Single Family Rural Residence areas are concentrated in area near the Village of
Pinckney. There are also portions of this land use designation north ofM-36 and west of the
Village where there is a predominance of smaller acreage parcels and where low density rural
residential land uses prevail. These single family estate uses are at a minimum lot size of 1
dwelling unit per 2 acres.
Putnam Township Master Plan
Page 32
�R-1-B Single Family Rural Residence
R-1-B Single Family Ru{al Residence areas are also in close proximity to the Village of
Pinckney. A large concentration of single family rural residence (1 acre) lot sizes are proposed
along M-36 and east of the Village of Pinckney. Other areas within the Township in close
proximity to paved roads and higher density residential land uses are also designated for this
land use category.
R-1-C Single Family Suburban Residence
R-1-C Single Family Suburban Residence classification includes half acre lots in close
proximity to paved roads and the Village of Pinckney. this land use is proposed along M-36
and also within areas near developed waterfront properties containing previously platted lot
areas.
'•
~
•II
•II
R-1-D Single Family High Density Residence
R-1-D Single Family High Density Residence land uses include previously platted lots in and
near Patterson Lake, Highland Lake and Portage Lake areas. Many of these lots range in size
.from 12,000 square feet to 4,000 square feet, and were developed or platted years ago as part
waterfront developments.
R-4 Apartment Residential
The land use plan proposes one area ofR-4 Apartment Residential development. This is
located off M-36 and east of the Village of Pinckney. It encompasses an existing multi family
apartment building.
R-6 Manufactured Housing Park
The Township designates one area for manufactured housing park development. This is located
in the eastern half of northwest quarter of Section 2. This site 40 acres in size and is located
directly off of a paved roadway (Schafer Road). It provides excellent access to a major county
roadway (D-19) and on-site soils serve well for a private sewage treatment system. The master
Plan designates this parcel as manufactured housing park at a gross density of not more than
214 dwelling units or not more than 5.36 dwelling units per acre.
II
II
II
II
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)
Putnam Township Master Plan
Page33
�Commercial
The land use plan proposes three areas of commercial use within the Township. The first is the
area east of the Village of Pinckney and north of M-36. The second area is a section of property
south of the Village on Dexter-Pinckney Road. The third area is near the western limits of the
Township on M-36 and rtear Pingree Road. All three areas are proposed for moderate commercial
development which would de-emphasire strip corridor usage. It is also recognized within this
Master Plan that the Village of Pinckney will remain as the primary commercial center for the
Township.
Industrial
•
The Township does not propose any additional industrial lands within the master plan area and will
rely on areas within the Village of Pinckney for suitable industrial sites.
Recreation/Conservation
This designation includes MDNR areas within the Pinckney Recreation Area, Gregory State Game
area, University of Michigan lands, Lakeland Trail State Park, and lands within the Michigan
•
_Metro Girl Scout Council Camp area. These land areas encompass nearly thirty percent of the
Township and will be restricted to public or private recreation use and conservation areas.
Institutional
Institutional lands include the Farley Elementary School, the Pinckney Elementary School and the
Putnam Township Fire Department located on M-36.
)
Pu:mam Township Masta Plan
Pag~34
�Circulation Plan
The Putnam Township Master
Plan also must provide long-range direction for future road
I
improvements. The road improvements are based upon a prioritization of existing Township
roadways. Priority roadways are in part established through traffic counts or traffic volume.
This prioritization includes the following types of streets and roadways:
- State Highway Routes
- Primary Hard Top
- Primary Gravel
- Local Gravel
I
'
State Highway Routes
A state highway route is the highest volume road within the Township. This would include
M-36 which provides major access to and through the Township. Furture developments having
a high land use intensity may be located on state highway routes only after driveway permit
review by the Michigan Department of Transportation.
Primary Hard Top
Primary hard top roads provide for the collection and distribution of traffic between the state
highway routes and local roads. These roads are primarily rural residential in character and are
medium traffic volume. Primary roads include: Dexter-Pinckney Road, D-19, Darwin and
Patterson Lake Road.
Primary Gravel/Local Gravel
Gravel roads provide direct access to abutting property. Through or fast moving traffic is
discouraged since the roads are not paved. These include such low volume roads as Pingree,
Hinchey, Cedar Lake, Kelly, Tiplady and Toma Roads.
II
II
II
II
•II
•
Future Road Improvements
Major road improvement projects will be dependent upon capital improvement priorites
established by the Livingston County Road Commission. From the Township's perspective,
repaving of portions of Patterson Lake is needed. Re-construction of the Patterson Lake Bridge
will also be necessary. Regular road grading, ditch improvements and dust control are also
priority improvements, which due to the lack of County and Township funds are a major
concern ofresidents, especially in the spring of the year .
Future Sewer Improvements
)
Future sewer improvements in the Township shall be limited to areas around lakes and
waterfronts to protect the long-term integrity of these important natural resources. The
Planning Commission discourages the placement of sewers that could lead to degradation of the
Township's rural character.
Putnam Township Master Plan
Page35
�I
'I
II
I
I
I
.- )
V
IMPLEMENTATION
�IMPLEMENTATION
This Master Plan is essentially a statement of policies, objectives and goals designed to
accommodate future growth. The Plan forms the philosophical basis for the more technical and
specific implementation measures. It must be recognized that development and change will occur
either with or without planning and that the Plan will have little affect upon future development and
change unless adequate implementation programs are established. This section identifies actions
and programs which will be useful if the plan is to be followed.
Programs, Policies, And Action
A variety of programs or administrative "tools" are available to help the plan succeed. These
include:
I
I
I
I
I
Capital Improvement Proeram - The Capital Improvement Program is simply a community
deciding what facilities to provide, where, when and at what cost As is evident then, the Capital
Improvement Plan will have a great affect on the extent and direction of development. For
example, extensions of sewer, storm drainage ways and roads will support and encourage
development in desired areas while there absence will discourage it in other locations.
Specific capital improvement projects would include the following items:
Road Improvement Projects
Repaving of Patterson Lake Road
Paving of Farley, Schafer, Darwin and Swarthout
More frequent grading of gravel roads
More frequent application of dust control measures
Ditching and drainage improvements
Funding of needed capital improvements is always a concern. Major county road improvements
are financed through the County Road Commission. The Township may consider a millage
election as an option to help finance needed road improvements that are not high on the County's
priority list A combination Countyffownship collaboration on road improvements could stretch
local tax dollars and make improvements to deficient roads.
Fire and police service improvements generally are financed from general fund expenditures or a
)
millage election. Financing for improved fire fighting capabilities would likely be provided from
Pumam Township Mascu PUJn
Pag~ 36
�these sources. It is possible that a new fire stat.ion/dispatch center and new equipment may be
needed if growth rates significantly rise.
Zonini: and Subdivision ReQuirements - Zoning is the development control that has been most
closely associated with planning. Originally zoning was intended to inhibit nuisances and protect
property values. However, zoning should also serve additional purposes which include:
1) Promoting orderly growth in a manner consistent with land use policies and the
Master Plan.
2) To promote attractiveness and variety in the Township's physical environment by
providing variation in lot sizes, etc. and allowing increased densities while
maintaining more common open space.
3) To accommodate special, complex or unique uses through such mechanisms as
planned unit developments and special use permits.
I
I
4) To guide development away from undesirable areas such as wetlands and prime
agricultural land.
5) To preserve and protect existing land uses until such time as they may change in
I
accordance with the Master Plan.
6) Enforce current zoning ordinance.
I
The zoning ordinance and official map, in themselves, should not be considered as the major long
range planning policy of the Township. Rather, the Master Plan should be regarded as a statement
1·
of planning policy and the zoning should be used to assist in implementing that policy. In order to
implement this master Plan, adjustments to the zoning ordinance and zoning map will be
I
necessary.
Special Purpose Ordinances - Control of land use activities need not be confined to the zoning
ordinance. Special purpose rules and regulations often compliment the Zoning Ordinance and
make it more effective.
These special purpose ordinances have already been adopted by Putnam Township, but will need
-I
I
periodic updates.
Subdivision Control
Private Road Standards
)
Lot Split Standards
Pu1nam Township Master Plan
Page 37
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Wyckoff Planning and Zoning Collection
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Planning & Zoning Center (Lansing, Mich.) (Organization)
Wyckoff, Mark A.
Description
An account of the resource
Municipal master plans and zoning ordinances from across the state of Michigan, spanning from the 1960s to the early 2020s. The bulk of the collection was compiled by urban planner Mark Wyckoff over the course of his career as the founder and principal planner of the Planning and Zoning Center in Lansing, Michigan. Some additions have been made to the collection by municipalities since it was transferred to Grand Valley State University.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Michigan
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1960/2023
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/870">Planning and Zoning Center Collection (RHC-240)</a>
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/NoC-US/1.0/">No Copyright - United States</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Michigan
Comprehensive plan publications
Master plan reports
Zoning--Michigan
Zoning--Maps
Maps
Land use--planning
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-240
Format
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application/pdf
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Text
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Putnam-Twp_Master-Plan_1996
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Putnam Township Planning Commission, Putnam Township, Livingston County, Michigan
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1996-05-08
Title
A name given to the resource
Putnam Township Master Plan
Description
An account of the resource
The Putnam Township Master Plan was prepared by the Putnam Township Planning Commission with assistance from Carlisle/Wortman Associates, Inc. and was adopted on May 8, 1996.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Carlisle/Wortman Associates, Inc. (consultant)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Master plan reports
Putnam Township (Mich.)
Livingston County (Mich.)
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/870">Planning and Zoning Center Collection (RHC-240)</a>
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/NoC-US/1.0/">No Copyright - United States</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/998bdb715322a0373d498f97192de2f4.mp4
db7f00e3416c574b9d6026b305ceac37
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/26c77d23b93c977560aa5afb4956280c.pdf
78fcebde84eb466703731069adc1bd4a
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
World War II
John Pylman
Total Time – (58:06)
Background
He was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan (00:29)
He attended the Christian school system (00:48)
Was raised in a Dutch neighborhood with values
He had two brothers and one sister (01:15)
o His older brother served in World War II as well
He never faced combat
He was born November 29, 1924 (02:12)
Enlistment/Training – (02:19)
Reviewing his options, he enlisted into the Army Air Force - June, 1943 (02:46)
He completed one year at Calvin College and then went into the Air Force
o If he was not in college, he could have potentially left nine months earlier
The Air Force was a personal preference (03:48)
He signed up at the Grand Rapids armory (04:06)
He went to basic training in Miami Beach, Florida (04:16)
o They took a train from Detroit, Michigan (04:37)
o There was a Sergeant in Miami Beach waiting for the new soldiers
Basic training was six weeks long (05:12)
Training was a challenge
o It was tough, but doable (06:02)
He made a lot of friends at basic training
o Played basketball with many of the guys
After basic training, he was sent to Wittenberg University in Springfield, Ohio for
college training detachment (06:41)
o Here you find out how skilled you are in academics – primarily math
(06:50)
o He was evaluated on chances of being successful (07:30)
He chose navigation – spent 9 months in the program (08:19)
o There was always physical training involved throughout all of training
The training was extremely adequate (14:05)
He was sent to Texas to be placed with a crew (14:39)
�
o His crew was assigned in November, 1944
He had graduated from the school in September, 1944
Was assigned an aircraft to fly to England (15:20)
o The crew flew through Savannah, Georgia, Bangor, Maine, and Gander
Field, Newfoundland (15:36)
They were snowed in at Gander Field – December 1944 (15:45)
Cleared to fly after two weeks (16:03)
They landed in England three minutes early and fifteen miles to the right (17:20)
As a navigator, he had to tell the pilot the heading that the crew takes (17:57)
o The navigator has to keep the crew on course, keep track of weather, and
simply get the crew there (18:16)
There were crews that missed the British Isles and were lost (18:52)
There were only months to develop the confidence in one another (19:13)
He remembers a time when he had navigated his crew far off course – they flew
over New Orleans (20:12)
o They later checked his compass and it had been registering ninety degrees
off (21:14)
He had been leading the crew on course with the exception of the
bad compass
When they landed in England, he was given a new plane (21:57)
They had new orientating missions Grafton Underwood, England (22:16)
After this, he was assigned a B-17G (22:34)
o It was considered a very reliable plane (22:58)
There were nine crew members (23:13)
Active Duty – (23:44)
He was then sent on missions to Germany
o Had three missions in February, 1945 (23:53)
o They flew nearly every other day in March, 1945 – 15 missions
That was considered a lot (24:30)
o There nearly 900 planes bombing Germany at this time (24:46)
At this point, there was not very much fighter opposition (25:08)
The end of the war was the best time to be bombing Germany (25:32)
His first targets were over the Ruhr, Germany (26:04)
o Also had a flight to Munich, Germany (26:14)
It was an 11 hour round-trip
He logged 175 hours and 55 minutes of combat time (26:23)
There was some damage to their plane
o There were 45 holes in their plane after one trip (26:42)
No one in the crew was hit
There were repair crews that would fix the planes to be ready the next day (27:45)
�
On one mission, they lost an engine at 15,000 feet – 5,000 feet below bombing
level (28:30)
o They were directed to leave the flight
Flying in formation is easier on the navigator – you follow the leader, serving as a
navigator (29:56)
o Close formation is the best defense as well as the best target
Everyone is business as they approach the bombing sites (31:10)
o Begins as soon as the plane hits the coast
o There is no messing around during the actual mission (31:29)
He flew in 22 missions – 30 is considered a complete tour (32:30)
o After 30, you are sent home
He was re-assigned to an Air Force base in Istres, France (33:44)
They were sent back and forth between Istres and northern Africa to deliver
salvaged materials (34:15)
o Mainly to keep the crew sharp
He was there on occupational duty from June, 1945 – May, 1946 (34:39)
He was, for the most part, out of danger
Only 3 months felt like there was potential danger (35:15)
In Africa, there was a lot of free time
Based on the military point system, it was primarily a time of building up points
in order to be sent home (35:37)
While others were being sent home, he became Squadron Command (36:22)
o He was only a 1st Lieutenant at the time
He was able to go and travel Europe in a jeep for 10 days (37:14)
o Traveled to the French Riviera
o Then went to Copenhagen, Denmark (37:34)
On the trip, him and his friends went to Berlin, Germany
o They went into a biergarten wearing their uniforms (37:52)
They did not receive a great reception
Coming home, they were sent by boats (38:41)
One weekend, while serving in Europe, they went to London, England (39:33)
o They were given many privileges as a combat crew
o On the trip, their plane was sent on a mission with another crew
The plane faced trouble and was lost – the crew included
On the base, soldiers could play poker, spend some money, and drink beer (41:16)
He was very interested in wrestling
There was entertainment that came on the weekends (41:56)
o He was not impressed with the entertainment – too much drinking
He was able to diligently write to his future wife and mother during this time
(42:32)
o He received weekly letters
He had a friend [Huff] who loudly came in one night and turned his light on got it
shot out by a friends slingshot (46:39)
The checks were sent back home – one hundred dollars every month – the other
sixty dollars were kept for the necessities (48:55)
�
He says that everyone who knew anyone serving in the war was worried about
their safety
After the Service – (50:52)
The military experience has helped change his views – he believes that war
should be avoided at all cost (51:06)
o Any war that America goes in to as a country, the country should be
totally committed to the war (51:42)
Humans should never be sacrificed for a political reason
He was able to use the G.I. Bill and finish his final three years of college, get his
Masters Degree, and got his Doctorate as well (52:35)
o All were done with the help of the G.I. Bill
Does not remember running out of support from the bill (52:46)
Never joined any kind of veterans organizations
Was a part of the reserve until 1955 (53:04)
Learning to follow directions and how important direction are was an extremely
valuable lesson that he learned by serving in the military (53:50)
o He could not choose if he followed directions, but he could choose how
well he would follow them
o It is important to know how to give directions as well as take them (54:49)
He served as a principal of a school for many years (55:11)
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
PylmanJ1383V
Title
A name given to the resource
Pylman, John (Interview outline and video), 2012
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Pylman, John
Description
An account of the resource
John Pylman was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan November 29, 1924. After attending Calvin College for one year, he decided to enlist into the Air Force in June of 1943. John was sent to Miami Beach where he spent six weeks in basic training. After the six weeks of basic training, he was sent to Wittenberg University in Ohio where he received college training detachment. John chose to become a navigator and was assigned to England with a crew of nine members. While serving in Europe, John went on twenty-two missions across the continent. He finished out his service by delivering salvaged materials from North Africa.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Moore, Deb (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
United States. Army Air Forces
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2012-05-10
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Format
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application/pdf
video/mp4
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3455df628fe3d03df469aefc46f35a5f.mp4
6aa24694ab71b0e3aad7d698dd7e58d7
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6d87950f4d4b89e859efc08d7d72d658.pdf
848e0128f9ba5b2f32a12f5388442636
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans’ History Project
Duane Quigg
World War II
51 minutes 28 seconds
(00:00:09) Early Life
-Born in Albion, Michigan on June 29, 1925
-Lived in Albion until he was drafted
-His father started off working as a manager at a gas station
-He also did odd jobs throughout the Great Depression
-One of his projects was buying, repairing, and selling motorcycles
-Eventually set up his own garage behind his house
-He would repair vehicles for farmers in the area
-They would pay him in the form of livestock
-He (Duane) remembers feeding chickens and milking cows
-He had one brother that was five years younger
(00:02:20) Start of the War
-He remembers going to buy some milk and driving home
-He heard the news on the radio that Pearl Harbor had been bombed
-He was the first in his family to know and told them when he got home
-He felt that President Roosevelt had known that Japan would attack Pearl Harbor
-Which means he felt that Japan was eventually going to attack the United States
-Knew that scrap metal was being sold to Japan and they were building up their military
-He was also aware of Japanese-American relations being tense and of the war in Europe
-Felt that eventually that he would get involved in the war
(00:04:26) Getting Drafted
-He wanted to become a fighter pilot in the Army Air Force
-He went to Battle Creek, Michigan for the testing and failed the eye test
-Decided to just wait to get drafted at that point
-He graduated from high school in June 1943
-Prior to graduating he had qualified to go into the Army Specialized Training Program
-He was drafted on July 11, 1943
(00:05:31) Basic Training
-He was sent to Fort Benning, Georgia for basic training
-Went from Battle Creek, to Chicago, to Fort Benning by train
-It was the first time that he had ever gone on a long train ride
-The train didn’t stop much on the trip down to Georgia
-He arrived at Fort Benning in the late summer of 1943
-They were quartered south of the Officer Candidate School
-They were trained to recognize certain types of snakes that were native to Georgia
-Remembers being told to recognize the difference between coral and king snakes
-There was a high emphasis on discipline
-There weren’t any problems with that because the men were willing to accept authority
-The drill sergeants were reasonable people
�-He won the obstacle course competition at the end of basic training
-He was in good physical shape when he went into the Army
-He didn’t have a problem adjusting to Army living
-Basic training lasted twelve weeks
-Knew that he would be going to the Army Special Training Program after basic training
-There were a large number of men from Michigan and from the Boston area
-The majority of the men from Boston were older
(00:10:18) Army Special Training Program (ASTP)
-He was sent to the University of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia for ASTP
-He was assigned to a dorm room to live in for the course
-It was a semester long course condensed into twelve weeks
-He knew some men had to drop out because it was too difficult
-He wasn’t able to complete ASTP because he was being assigned to the infantry
-More men were needed for the pending invasion of Europe
-ASTP was supposed to prepare men to be educated [primarily as engineers] for during and after
the war
-He knew a man who wound up going from the ASTP to work on the Manhattan Project
(00:13:14) Assignment to the 95th Infantry Division
-He was assigned to the 95th Infantry Division based at Indiantown Gap, Pennsylvania
-During his time there he volunteered for mountain climbing school
-He was sent to West Virginia to Seneca Rocks Climbing School
-It lasted two weeks and he enjoyed it
-He returned to Indiantown Gap and was told he would be deployed to Europe
-Learned of this in early spring 1944
(00:14:55) Deployment to European Theatre
-He was sent to Fort Miles Standish near Boston
-He boarded a repurposed cruise ship that was being used as a troop transport
-It was an uncomfortable voyage because it was just not meant for transporting soldiers
-They sailed over with an escort because U-Boats were still a threat
-The voyage took four (or five) days
-Remembers that more men got seasick on the voyage home, but not the voyage there
-They landed in Liverpool, England and he was sent to a camp near Winchester, England
-Arrived in England shortly after D-Day
(00:18:24) Arrival in Mainland Europe
-He left out of Southampton, England to sail across the English Channel aboard a LST
-Wound up having to spend a week in the English Channel
-They landed at Omaha Beach sometime in late summer 1944
-By the time they arrived Paris had been liberated by Allied forces (August 25, 1944)
-Spent a week living on the beach while vehicles moved closer to the front
-He was part of an antitank company in the 95th Infantry Division
-They had 57mm antitank guns, bazookas, and small arms (rifles, machine guns, etc.)
(00:20:33) Fighting in the French Countryside
-After getting established in France they began to move inland toward the Maginot Line
-They moved into the area around Metz, France
-There was bitter fighting in that area although he didn’t see much action
-Eventually the German forces in Metz were surrounded
�-The frontline was still nearby and there was concern about a counterattack
-Beyond Metz they started to encounter more German resistance and take casualties
-He carried a bazooka, but never actually fired it in anger
-There was one time where they moved into a village and came up against a German tank
-Remembers a P-51 fighter plane disabling the tank for them
-That same day he had a close encounter with a German artillery shell
-Same shell managed to hit a group of men in his unit
-Remembers his mother telling him later that she knew he was in danger that day
(00:29:55) Saar River Region
-From Metz they moved into the Saar River region and secured the only standing bridge
-Recalls seeing lots of dead American soldiers that had tried to take the bridge
-They moved into the area in December 1944 just prior to the Battle of the Bulge
-They were very close to the Siegfried Line
-There were times where he had to stand guard on the bridge
-At one point he had to cross over the bridge to help attack German artillery
-He remembers being in a building and a mortar shell coming through the ceiling
-Fortunately for him it was dud
-They stayed in the Saar River region for a couple weeks until the Battle of the Bulge began
(00:33:48) The Battle of the Bulge and Afterwards
-After the German offensive was stopped they moved to Bastogne
-From Bastogne they moved to Liege, Belgium and stayed for a couple weeks
-During that winter he was always able to sleep in a building and not outside
-They moved to Maastricht, Netherlands after the Battle of the Bulge
(00:35:33) Pushing into Germany
-By early spring 1945 they were beginning to push into Germany
-Two weeks before Easter 1945 they were ordered to take Berlin
-At the last minute the orders were changed due to the Soviets conquering Berlin
-They moved into Bremerhaven, and from there to Hannover, and there to the Ruhr Pocket
-As they moved into Germany he saw nothing but rubble
-Especially in an industrialized area like the Ruhr Pocket
-The Allied air force had laid waste to that part of Germany
-The German countryside had been mostly spared though
-Towards the end of the war he started to see a lot of German refugees
-As they pushed into Germany they liberated a few prisoner of war camps holding Soviet troops
(00:38:26) End of the War in Europe
-While they were in Maastricht he remembers seeing a German fighter jet
-The first of its kind, it was the Me-262
-He wanted to write to his father about it, but that information was censored
-He remembers at the end of the war when he was in Germany he was on guard duty
-During one shift, early in the morning, twenty Germans surrendered to him
-At the end of the war German soldiers began surrendering en masse
-Noticed that many of the soldiers were either very young, or very old
-Even at the end of the war they were still encountering some resistance
-If they did encounter resistance the Germans would scatter and retreat
-He was in the Ruhr Pocket when Germany surrendered on May 8, 1945
-He stayed in the Ruhr Pocket until he was sent home
�(00:42:08) End of the War & Coming Home
-He arrived in the United States on June 28, 1945
-He remembers after the war German civilians would interact with American soldiers
-They would trade with German civilians
-German women wanted attention from the American soldiers
-Upon going home his ship got caught in a hurricane
-He stayed on deck because below decks it reeked of vomit
-The storm lasted three days
-Arrived at Newport News, Virginia
-He was given a thirty day leave home
-After the thirty days he reported to Camp Shelby, Mississippi on August 1, 1945
-He was preparing to be a part of the invasion of Japan
-On August 6 and 9 the atomic bombs were dropped ending the war in the Pacific
-He has always been grateful to President Truman for making that decision
-Feels that ultimately it saved American and Japanese lives
-Sure that it probably saved his life as well
-He had enough “points’’ to get out of the Army
-Instead he volunteered to replace the company clerk
-He was sent to Fort Bragg, North Carolina and stayed there until January 1946
-His duty was to process soldiers that were being discharged from the Army
(00:47:28) Life after the War
-After the war he returned to Michigan and attended Albion College on the GI Bill
-He got married in 1947
-He and his wife moved down to Angola, Indiana and he attended Tri-State University
-He majored in engineering
-After the war he wanted to live on the northern part of Lake Michigan
-He got a job in Muskegon and worked there until the 1960s
-After that he started his own business
(00:49:22) Reflections on Service
-He made lifelong friendships while in the Army
-And there are some men he wishes that he had stayed in contact with
-He feels fortunate to have gotten to see parts of the world he may never have gotten to otherwise
-He has been able to travel to the places he served in Europe with his grandchildren
-He still can’t be sure that the war had a profound impact on him
-All he knows is that he is who he is, regardless of his service
�
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Veterans History Project
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The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
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Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
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United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
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Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
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RHC-27
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eng
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
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Quigg, Duane (Interview outline and video), 2014
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2014-12-16
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Duane Quigg was born in 1925 in Albion, Michigan. He grew up there and after graduating from high school was drafted in July 1943. He was sent to Fort Benning, Georgia for basic training and then to the University of Pennsylvania for the Army Specialized Training Program. He was later assigned to become an infantryman and was deployed to Europe in an antitank company carrying a bazooka with the 95th Infantry Division in 1944. Upon arriving in Europe in late summer 1944 he saw action in the French countryside, in the Netherlands, in Belgium, and finally in Germany with the end of the war in Europe. On June 28, 1945 he was back in the United States and served at Fort Bragg, North Carolina processing soldiers that were getting discharged until January 1946.
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Quigg, Duane
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Smither, James (Interviewer)
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Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
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World War, 1939-1945--Personal Narratives, American
United States. Army
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eng
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a>
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https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8cf7a4d4ec597b6822fa8ff3390c37d6.pdf
4b3640afb689f4d893f7888867d8301d
PDF Text
Text
Young Lords
In Lincoln Park
Interviewee: Sandra Quiles
Interviewer: Jose Jimenez
Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections
Date: 11/21/2012
Runtime: 01:48:38
Biography and Description
Oral history of Sandra Quiles, interviewed by Jose “Cha-Cha” Jimenez on November 21, 2012 about the
Young Lords in Lincoln Park.
"The Young Lords in Lincoln Park" collection grows out of decades of work to more fully document the
history of Chicago's Puerto Rican community which gave birth to the Young Lords Organization and later,
the Young Lords Party. Founded by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, the Young Lords became one of the
premier struggles for international human rights. Where thriving church congregations, social and
�political clubs, restaurants, groceries, and family residences once flourished, successive waves of urban
renewal and gentrification forcibly displaced most of those Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos,
working-class and impoverished families, and their children in the 1950s and 1960s. Today these same
families and activists also risk losing their history.
�Transcript
JOSE JIMENEZ:
So, [Sandy?], if you could give me your full name, with your middle
initial and everything -SANDRA QUILES: My full name?
JJ:
-- and your date of birth and where you were born.
SQ:
Okay. My full name is Sandra Maria Quiles Jimenez. I was born in Aurora,
Illinois.
JJ:
When were you born?
SQ:
I was born in Aurora, Illinois.
JJ:
No, what date?
SQ:
September 17th. I try to forget it. (laughs)
JJ:
September 17th?
SQ:
Yeah, September 17th, ’71.
JJ:
And why are you trying to forget it?
SQ:
The years go by too fast. (laughs)
JJ:
Okay. It was ’81?
SQ:
Seventy-one.
JJ:
Seventy-one. Sorry. I won’t go into how long (inaudible).
SQ:
Oh, please. (laughter)
JJ:
Because you said -- okay. So, did you go to school in Aurora?
SQ:
Yeah, I did. I went to Brady School in Aurora. [00:01:00]
JJ:
Brady?
1
�SQ:
Yes, I went to Brady.
JJ:
What part of Aurora? East side, west side?
SQ:
I don’t remember. It’s so long ago. I really don’t remember. I know it was -- I
really liked it. It was really, really good when I was small, growing up. It was
calm. I know certain times of the year, certain -- there was a lot of Mexicans
coming in. So, right there, a little bit of changes. But otherwise that, it was good.
It was nice and calm. But then, while the years kept on going, it wasn’t as the
way it should have been from there, I guess. Mom and my dad didn’t really like it
anymore, so we ended up coming here.
JJ:
So, who’s your mom? What’s her name? And your dad?
SQ:
My mom is Juana Jimenez, and my dad is William Quiles.
JJ:
William Quiles, okay. And how about your brothers and sisters? What were their
names?
SQ:
My brother -- my oldest brother -- [00:02:00] his name is Joseph Anthony. I
would be the second one. And then, comes my sister Margie, and then would be
Danny.
JJ:
And where do they live?
SQ:
Well, right now, Joey lives in -- I think in Orlando. Margie lives in Aurora. And
Danny, I don’t -- I don’t remember. Really, I don’t.
JJ:
Alright. And then, are they married or no?
SQ:
Well, no, no, not really. My sister, she’s happily with her partner right now. They
have a child. She’s happily with him. My brother, he’s okay. He’s with his
partner also. But my oldest brother, no, not that I know of, no.
2
�JJ:
But your husband, what’s his name? [00:03:00]
SQ:
My husband’s name is Victor Ocasio.
JJ:
Victor Ocasio. What does he do?
SQ:
My husband is a doctor.
JJ:
He’s a doctor? Okay? So, what do you do for a living?
SQ:
I am a artesana.
JJ:
Artesana?
SQ:
Artesana, yes.
JJ:
And what is artesana?
SQ:
Artesana would be someone that does certain things either with seeds or
whatever you could do with your hands. I guess they would call it as a crafter.
JJ:
Crafter?
SQ:
I think that’s what it would be called, crafter.
JJ:
So, you do different things with your hands?
SQ:
Yes, I like to use a lot of seeds, Puerto Rican seeds, all -- certain seeds that you
can’t find in the states is what I like to use. And then, I use a lot of --
JJ:
Because you’re living in Puerto Rico.
SQ:
Right. So, I use the seeds from here.
JJ:
Where are you living at right now?
SQ:
In Camuy.
JJ:
In Camuy, Puerto Rico. Okay. So, that’s where we’re doing the interview.
SQ:
So, the seeds -- I like to mess with the seeds. I love a lot of seed work. The
problem is that it’s so hard to do because it takes a long time. I can make --
3
�[00:04:00] one bracelet would easily take me about two weeks by the time I look
for them, pick out the good ones, make sure I -- I don’t know -- I wouldn’t know
how to put it in English. I would just make sure you don’t have little bugs and
stuff inside your seeds.
JJ:
Now, is that one of those necklaces?
SQ:
Yes, these are one --
JJ:
Did you make that?
SQ:
Yes, I did.
JJ:
Okay. And you made a lot of stuff in your house also because --
SQ:
Practically everything.
JJ:
-- I see other things (inaudible).
SQ:
Yeah, I like anything that has to do with woodwork, I like.
JJ:
Woodwork?
SQ:
Anything that’s recycled. Yes, especially woodwork.
JJ:
So, what kind of stuff do you do with woodwork? I mean, we’ll go later on and --
SQ:
What stuff do I do?
JJ:
Right.
SQ:
I love doors. I don’t know why. I have an obsession with doors. (laughs) I like
doors. They have so much history in them. You know how many people touched
a door? So, you never know who’s touched it, who’s opened it. So, I don’t know.
I just like it. They have different size, different shapes.
M:
(inaudible)
JJ:
Come on in. Okay, so, they have different sizes and different shapes?
4
�SQ:
Right.
JJ:
But where did you get the idea of the woodwork?
SQ:
My dad because Dad, he does a lot of things with his hands. And I’ve seen some
of his work that he does at the house. And it’s just by, I mean, looking at him and
saying, “Wow, I want to learn how to do that.” So, I would just stand there and
just watch him. So, I would learn. And he’s a good teacher. To show -- he’s a
good teacher. He’s nice and calm, and he’ll tell you, “Well, you can’t do it like
this. Do it this way. This is the best way to do it.” So, I guess I just caught on to
what he does. Yeah. [00:06:00]
JJ:
So, your dad does a lot of -- is he an artesano, or what does he do?
SQ:
Well, I wouldn’t call it artesano. I don’t know if it would be called artesano. I
know that we just like to -- what we see, we might like, and we’ll just pick it up
and do it.
JJ:
But I mean, does he do artisan crafts like you do?
SQ:
Well, he does cabinets sometimes and he --
JJ:
Oh, he does cabinets?
SQ:
Yes, sometimes. And he’ll do certain things in the house. You know, “I need this.
Can you do that for me?” And he can just --
JJ:
Like you say I need this (inaudible).
SQ:
Well, it would be, “Can you fix the bathroom for me?” He’ll go do it.
JJ:
Okay. So, he does carpentry work.
SQ:
He does a little of everything.
JJ:
Little of everything?
5
�SQ:
Yeah.
JJ:
But he does woodwork too?
SQ:
Yes, yes, he does. He doesn’t do it as design, shape of it. But he does just
modern touch, nice square and --
JJ:
Because in [00:07:00] Puerto Rico, they make -- sometimes people make their
own houses. Did he do stuff like that? Does -- is that one?
SQ:
Yes, yes. That’s -- yeah, I would say that.
JJ:
But that’s construction.
SQ:
You’re right. Yeah, yeah, that’s what you would call it.
JJ:
That’s what he does.
SQ:
Construction work, right.
JJ:
He does construction work. But you do artesana.
SQ:
Mine is completely different. Mine is more taking something that you would see
old and try to make it -- give it a brand new life, use it for something else. That’s
what I would -- I would probably put it that way.
JJ:
So, you kind of got that from him as you were growing up or --
SQ:
Yeah, because I would always see him in the garage, doing things. Kind of
fascinated at stuff that he would do. I would just stare and look and watch. I
really liked it. But then, as the years kept on going by, I would start picking up -- I
think the first time I did something -- I think I sewed [00:08:00] a skirt. And I liked
it. But then, I didn’t like to make clothes. But I liked to make sheets, curtains,
and pillows, and things that everybody else could see, not, “Okay, I’m going to
wear a skirt.” No, no, no, that’s not me.
6
�JJ:
So, you always made stuff. Now, where did you get that part of you, the sewing
part?
SQ:
I don’t know. I guess --
JJ:
Was it your mother?
SQ:
-- it would be from -- no, not from Mom. I think it would be more like one of his
sisters, [Milda?]. Yeah, she’s a sew-er. She’s another arts and crafts person.
She does a lot of stuff with her hands. She does beautiful work also.
JJ:
So, you were close to Milda?
SQ:
I wasn’t close to her (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) but I think -- yeah, I just
think I just caught up things that she would do too. If I didn’t understand
something when I was going to school, I would go to her and I would ask, “How
do you do this?” And she would explain to me, and I would just catch up and I
would do it.
JJ:
When you say going to school -- so, did you go to school here or did you go to
school --
SQ:
Yeah, I also -- when we were in Aurora [00:09:00] -- we left from there when I
was --
JJ:
How old -- yeah, how old?
SQ:
-- Fifteen. I think it was a month before I turned 15. And then, I ended up here in
school, which I did not like. I wasn’t too happy with the schools here at all.
JJ:
Why not?
SQ:
Well, the school’s completely different. We’re used to the state school. They
have it closed. You have your hallways. You have your private bathrooms. You
7
�have everything. Here, everything is out in the open. You’ve got to go -- if it’s
raining, you have to run because you’re going to get wet. There’s no hallways
actually that you can say, “I’m going to get covered up. I’m not going to get wet.”
Everything is completely different.
JJ:
I don’t understand. But you’re inside school --
SQ:
You’re in the school. But the school is -- it has, you know, rooms. But if you’re
ready to leave to the next room, you’ve got to go out. You’ve got to go out into
the courtyard. [00:10:00] You’ve got to walk across. You’re still going to get
rained on because it’s not covered. It’s not covered at all. It’s not like over there.
Over there is -- you have your air conditioning. And if it’s cold, you’re nice and
warm. No, not here. Make sure you bring your umbrella and your jacket. That’s
how it works here.
JJ:
And you went to what school here?
SQ:
I went to the high school. I went to the high school.
JJ:
You went to the high school?
SQ:
Yes.
JJ:
What was it -- do you know what it was called?
SQ:
Yeah, Santiago R. Palmer.
JJ:
Okay, Santiago --
SQ:
R. Palmer.
JJ:
R. Palmer? Okay. And so, besides the room, how were the kids and how was --
SQ:
The teaching and --
JJ:
Because you went all the way to 15. You were 15 years old.
8
�SQ:
Right.
JJ:
So, you practically -- you were born in Aurora.
SQ:
Everything is different. First of all, it was hard for me because I didn’t know
[00:11:00] a lot of Spanish. In my home, we talked Spanish. But remember, we
talked Spanglish, half Spanish, half English. That’s what we usually do. We still
do it. But I mean, Dad would talk to us the basic. But Mom would talk to us in
English. We would go to school, everything was in English. Our friends -everybody knew English. So then, you come here to Puerto Rico, everything has
changed completely. Everybody speaks Spanish. And yes, there are few people
that speak English, few, as in maybe 10, could be 20, when I was in school.
JJ:
And then, did they speak broken English?
SQ:
Broken English.
JJ:
All of them?
SQ:
Not all of them. There were maybe a handful that knew good English, maybe a
handful. The teachers -- which they said English teachers -- they wouldn’t be
called English teachers, at least when I in school. Now --
JJ:
What do you mean? Because they didn’t really understand English.
SQ:
They [00:12:00] didn’t understand English at all. And the English as maybe a
10th grader was learning seventh grade English at that time.
JJ:
Oh, so the class --
SQ:
Everything.
JJ:
You were learning English in class.
SQ:
Right. But everything --
9
�JJ:
Did you learn Spanish in class?
SQ:
All the rest of the classes were in Spanish except one, which was English.
JJ:
So, you were all in Spanish.
SQ:
Right.
JJ:
But they were not -- were they teaching Spanish, or were they just --
SQ:
No, they were teaching Spanish, and they were all in Spanish, except the English
class.
JJ:
For example, the English class taught (inaudible) but the English class
(inaudible).
(break in audio)
JJ:
Okay, so, English was a subject. And so, was Spanish a subject?
SQ:
Yes, it was.
JJ:
And then, all the other classes were in Spanish.
SQ:
Everything else was in Spanish.
JJ:
But you just had one for [00:13:00] English.
SQ:
One for English. It was so poor English that you would get bored in the class, at
least we did, or everybody that knew English got bored because it was like -instead of a 10th grade English, you would get a seventh grade English.
JJ:
So, for you, it was boring because you already knew it.
SQ:
Right, right.
JJ:
So, you go an A, right?
SQ:
Well, I mean, probably not because we would just end up fooling around in class.
And then, the rest of the classes -- it was so difficult, at least for me it was and for
10
�people that didn’t really know Spanish because there’s no bilingual. That didn’t
exist, bilingual classes and everything. No. It’s, “Either you listen -- if you don’t
listen, well I can’t help you.” That’s the way it was. I think I was told [00:14:00] a
couple of times, “If you don’t know English, then go back to the United States.”
JJ:
By whom?
SQ:
A few teachers.
JJ:
They came right out and told you that?
SQ:
Yeah, they said that a few times.
JJ:
So, that kind of was --
SQ:
That kind of --
JJ:
How did you feel (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)?
SQ:
That made me feel not too great, you know.
JJ:
Were they saying it in a loving way?
SQ:
No, they were saying it in a sarcastic way. “If you don’t know English, then go
back to where you came from.” It’s like, “We live in Puerto Rico. We speak
Spanish. Learn Spanish.” Well, that’s what I came for, to learn. I mean, you
don’t go to Japan and know their language, I mean, unless you are born and
raised from there. You understand? So, it hit hard. It hit hard. I do remember
that day when that did happen. It happened to me and my older brother. It
happened to Joey too. And we went straight to Mom, and we had told her about
it. And her only words were, “Just leave them because they’re ignorant.”
[00:15:00] And thinking of it now, yes, it was true. They were very ignorant
11
�because, now, if you don’t know English, what’s it going to get you? Nothing,
nothing at all. That’s why I showed my children -JJ:
So now, you kind of feel like revenge. Is it revenge?
SQ:
No, not --
JJ:
Now everybody needs to know English.
SQ:
-- not a revenge. It’s not a revenge. It’s just, you know, think before you speak.
(laughter) That kind of way. I don’t want to say revenge because it doesn’t sound
too good.
JJ:
But I mean, they were kind of wrong too.
SQ:
Yeah, they were wrong.
JJ:
They’re supposed to be responsible people --
SQ:
Right.
JJ:
-- teachers. But you said you went to Mom, so it hurt a little.
SQ:
Yeah, it hurt us. But my mom knew how to explain it to us to make us feel better.
She just told us, “They’re just ignorant. They don’t know what they say.” So, we
just [00:16:00] left it that way. There was no -- for her -- she knew how to fix it for
us so we wouldn’t feel bad.
JJ:
But I mean, it’s devastating because you’re coming from here -- this is, in a way,
your country.
SQ:
Right.
JJ:
And then, also somebody from your country telling you that.
SQ:
Like I said -- well, they’re just people that say things without thinking. That’s it.
You have to think before you speak. They didn’t do that.
12
�JJ:
So, the next day you went to school after that.
SQ:
I left it like if nothing, and my brother left it like if nothing. We just left it and kept
on taking normal classes. We just dropped it.
JJ:
But how did she act? How did the teacher act?
SQ:
Like if nothing, like if nothing ever happened. I guess it was just a stupid remark
that the teacher said, something she wasn’t supposed to say.
JJ:
But she didn’t give you (inaudible)?
SQ:
No, because we didn’t --
JJ:
She was an authority figure.
SQ:
Right because we didn’t even think of it. We didn’t care anymore about it. The
subject was dropped. [00:17:00] We talked to our parents about it. And we
dropped it.
JJ:
Did they do that to other kids?
SQ:
I don’t know. I really don’t know. Probably, but I don’t know.
JJ:
So, how was school in the United States, in Aurora?
SQ:
The school over there? Actually it was -- I liked it. I liked it because the teachers
-- they were always, you know, “Do you need help? Do you need anything?”
They were always making sure that if you did need help -- they let us understand
that, “We’re there to help you.” But here, it’s not the same. It’s not. And now -that’s at least when I went to school. But now, for my two children, the teachers - since, you know, during the years everything does change -- the teachers now, I
mean, they’re really good teachers, [00:18:00] at least the teachers that my
13
�children have gotten. My oldest son, which is 19 -- that’s Andrew -- he
graduated. And I’ve never had any problems with him at all.
JJ:
So, he went all the way through school here?
SQ:
Yes.
JJ:
So, he was born here.
SQ:
Yes, he was born here. And he knew English because I showed him English. I
made sure, even if you’ve never gone to the United States, you need to know
English because what if you do go to the United States to make a good life for
yourself? How are you going to be able to do it if you don’t know English? And
he knows good English.
JJ:
You were born and raised in the United States.
SQ:
I was born and raised in the United States.
JJ:
But now you’re --
SQ:
And my son was born and raised in Puerto Rico. The difference is -- it’s the way
the parents teach your children. That’s how I figure it. And right now, my
daughter -- she’s nine -- which that would be Victoria -- she knows good English,
very good English. [00:19:00] So, I mean, she knows and she listens. It’s just
like I say, as long as you teach them good, it’ll work out. I know it’ll work out for
them during the long run in school.
JJ:
So, do you have plans to go back to the United States?
SQ:
My husband says it now, you know, “Why don’t we go back, and why don’t we do
this?” I would really love to, but at the same time, I wouldn’t. The reason is
because -- you know, all the gangs and everything you see on the news. I know
14
�it’s in every place. I know everywhere in the world, there’s always something.
But right now, here -- I think it’s the best place for my children because right here
I live, at least this part that -- where I do live, it’s [00:20:00] quiet, no gangs. I can
leave my door wide open, which it’s happened. I’ve gone to sleep and I wake up
in the morning, my door is wide open. I don’t have to worry about any of that,
and neither do my children. So, if I were to do that in the United States, what do
you think would happen? I’d probably get robbed. But for me, right now, this is a
great place to show my kids, let them go to school. They don’t have to worry
about much. I know the time they get home. I know they’re going to get home
safely, hopefully, because you can’t always say, “It’s going to work out good for
them. You don’t know that.” But so far, so good.
JJ:
Does your husband know English? Did he live in the United States or --
SQ:
No, my husband’s never gone to the United States at all. So, he’s born and
raised in Isabela.
JJ:
Isabela? Where is that at on the island? Do you know? [00:21:00]
SQ:
Oh gosh. You’re asking the wrong person. (laughter) That’s close by Aguadilla.
JJ:
Okay, that’s on like the west coast, by Mayagüez, Aguadilla?
SQ:
Yeah.
JJ:
Oh, on the west coast.
SQ:
Yes.
JJ:
So, he was born and raised there?
SQ:
Born and raised, yes.
JJ:
In the country, in the city, or what?
15
�SQ:
I would put it the country.
JJ:
And then, he just decided to become a medical doctor?
SQ:
Yeah, I guess. He said that ever since he was small, that’s what he wanted to
do. So, he wanted to become a doctor. It’s not easy here being a doctor though,
not at all. The pay isn’t the same as the United States.
JJ:
What do you mean?
SQ:
Well, it’s just an example. I don’t really know. But I know [00:22:00] it’s not the
same. Imagine -- you can just imagine they -- whatever a doctor from the states
would get. Maybe we would get half. So, it’s not a lot.
JJ:
Where does he practice now? What town?
SQ:
He is in Bayamón. He was working in San Juan. But now, he’s in Bayamón.
JJ:
Do you know how to spell that?
SQ:
Yeah.
JJ:
(overlapping dialogue; inaudible)
SQ:
I don’t know if it’s (inaudible) or not.
JJ:
Yeah, I understand.
SQ:
You’re making too much --
(break in audio)
JJ:
We were talking about your husband being a doctor and the differences.
SQ:
Well, I mean, it’s not -- I don’t know. The benefits over there, I guess, would be
better than the ones here. But it’s not the same. It’s really not the same at all.
JJ:
And you’re saying in terms of income.
SQ:
Right, right.
16
�JJ:
So, about half --
SQ:
Yeah.
JJ:
-- half of there. [00:23:00]
SQ:
Yes.
JJ:
Okay, but you still -- a good status. I mean, he’s a doctor.
SQ:
Yeah, that’s -- yeah.
JJ:
So, you enjoy it? Do you enjoy that status or --
SQ:
It’s okay. We enjoy our simple life. We’re not too fancy, fancy people. We like
everything normal. Like why can’t we live a normal life just like normal people?
Other people like -- oh, high standards or, “Oh, I’m so-and-so person.” We don’t
do that. We’re just two normal people like anybody else.
JJ:
And recently, you just bought a house. Right?
SQ:
Yes. We bought this house four years ago.
JJ:
And was it already built, everything, or did your father help with it?
SQ:
Yeah, because there were a lot of things wrong with the house because I guess - we bought an as-is house. [00:24:00]
JJ:
A fixer.
SQ:
Yeah, a fixer. So, that’s what we’ve been doing. We took the garage, we made it
into a -- well, we’re still doing it -- into half a living room, a family -- and then, a
kitchen -- part of the kitchen.
JJ:
It’s a beautiful house (inaudible).
SQ:
Thank you, thank you.
JJ:
So, you said you don’t remember anything about Brady School?
17
�SQ:
I don’t. Actually, I don’t remember a lot. I don’t. I really, really don’t. I don’t
know if it’s that I just blurred it out or -- I don’t remember much.
JJ:
Do you remember your first birthday party?
SQ:
I do remember, when I was smaller, some things, not a lot of things. I do
remember where we used to live. We used to live close by the railroad tracks.
And it was on Front Street. [00:25:00] And we used to roller skate. Me and my
sister, we used to roller skate down the street. So, I do remember bits and bits
here and there. That, I do remember. I do remember a couple of things I did
with my brother when we were growing up, but I’m not going there. (laughter) I’m
not going there. But just little tiny bits of things. And then, from there, I do
remember -- I think it was my 13th birthday and my 14th birthday. And that’s it. I
don’t really --
JJ:
So, what was your 13th birthday? I’m just trying to get an idea of what --
SQ:
My 13th birthday -- it was something small (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). It
was something small. It was just us at home and my best friend. That’s really it.
And then, my 14th -- I do remember my 14th birthday. It was a little big. Mom
gave me a little -- big birthday party, which that I do remember. And we didn’t
have to worry really much about anything.
JJ:
Who were your close friends?
SQ:
I only had one really good friend. Her name was Bridget. I don’t know [00:26:00]
her last name. But I do remember. And I do know my sister was able to find her
not too long ago. I haven’t spoken to her, I haven’t seen her in a long time.
JJ:
Was she a nationality or just a regular American.
18
�SQ:
She’s an American, yes.
JJ:
So, just -- I don’t know what nationality.
SQ:
No, I don’t.
JJ:
Just American.
SQ:
Yeah.
JJ:
Would you call it American? She’s an American?
SQ:
I would call her a white girl. (laughter) She had a really, really white -- and her
blonde hair. But she was really smart. Well, she is really, really smart. I would
call her -- “I’m going to white girl’s house.” (laughter) I don’t know.
JJ:
And so, you did enjoy some things in Aurora?
SQ:
I did. I have good memories, most of them like Christmas, but with my family. I
don’t remember friends. [00:27:00] I don’t -- I think maybe there was a girl that
used to live next door. Her name was Jenny. That I do -- and her brother was
Julio. That I do know because her brother was my brother’s best friend, which
would be Joey’s best friend, at that time. And then, Jenny would go to my house
to play with my sister, which was Margie. So, that I do remember. But otherwise
that, I don’t really remember --
JJ:
You said Christmas. What was Christmas?
SQ:
Christmas -- oh, I loved Christmas because Mom would do all these things, and
we would just play or sit around the Christmas tree and things that little kids did.
I do remember. I do remember all those good times. Here, it’s not the same
because -- I remember once Mom said, “Oh, we’ve got to go outside and look at
the Christmas tree.” So, we ran outside to see the Christmas tree, and I was like,
19
�“Wow, it’s a big tree.” And when we walked up the stairs, it was a little tiny, tiny
tree on top [00:28:00] of a table. (laughter)
JJ:
But to you, it was big.
SQ:
It looks really big.
JJ:
(inaudible)
SQ:
No, that was out in Aurora. Yeah. The only thing that I really, really miss is the
snow. That, I do miss.
JJ:
Did you do activities in the snow?
SQ:
I remember when Dad and Mom would take us to Phillips Park to go on the sled.
That, I do. I do remember that. And that -- I really miss that. I would love to take
my kids someday so they can know how it feels to go down that sled on the little
hills.
JJ:
What about -- you go bowling with you dad? I know your dad was into bowling
(inaudible).
SQ:
Yeah, I was in bowling leagues. I was in that. I was in one because of Dad. Dad
did a lot of bowling, a lot. [00:29:00] I think every Saturday, if I’m not mistaken.
Every Saturday he’d say, “I’m going bowling.” And we would all tag along with
Dad. I do remember that.
JJ:
Now, there were family people there too, right (inaudible)?
SQ:
Yes, a lot of family. But you know what? There was a lot of Puerto Ricans there,
a lot of Puerto Ricans. So, most of the groups that were in the bowling leagues -they were mostly all Puerto Ricans. There was very little Mexicans. And there
was a lot of Americans. But mostly they were Puerto Ricans.
20
�JJ:
So, you remember that (inaudible).
SQ:
Yeah, I do remember that. That, I do remember.
JJ:
So, did you remember like when they had a parade or something (inaudible)?
SQ:
That’s the problem. I don’t remember.
JJ:
No, it’s not a problem. I’m just trying to find --
SQ:
I don’t --
JJ:
-- what you remember.
SQ:
Yeah, but I do -- I wish I do remember most of that stuff. But I don’t.
JJ:
I’m trying to find out where your thinking process, your development came in.
SQ:
My thinking process -- oh. (laughter)
JJ:
(inaudible) I mean, you go into artwork and stuff. Did you do that over there?
[00:30:00]
SQ:
What?
JJ:
Your artesana, the --
SQ:
Oh, in Aurora, you mean? No, I don’t think I did. No, no. I know Mom would
always say that I always had bags of things and I would sit there and make stuff,
and I would make Barbie clothes. I think all girls made Barbie clothes or doll
clothes out of anything they could think of and find because my daughter does
that now too. So, I guess, from there, it just kept on going, I do think.
JJ:
So, the decision comes that, “We’re moving out of here, and we’re going to
Puerto Rico.” How did you feel?
SQ:
I wasn’t happy at all. Remember, I was going to be 15 in a month. I was going to
turn 15. And every girl, at least now they do, most of the girls did either their
21
�Sweet 16 or their quinceañera, which would be their 15. I was waiting for a little
party. No, I didn’t get that. [00:31:00] I got, “We’re going to Puerto Rico.” I was
like, “Great.” That was my decision. I was like, “Why are we leaving?” I wouldn’t
-- okay, fine, a vacation, that would be great. But I guess, at that time, I didn’t
see it that way. At that time, I was really upset, like any other kid. First of all,
we’re leaving our friends. Second of all, we were leaving what we knew behind.
But I know my parents did it for us so we could have a better life because it was
starting to get bad. So, I know Mom kept saying to us, “I’m only doing this
because it’s better for us. It’s going to be better for the family. The things -- I
don’t have to worry about so-and-so guy is shooting outside. Get in the house.”
I guess that’s why they mostly did it, to come here. I guess it was a good
decision too because we all went to school. And Mom didn’t really have to worry.
And we could walk to school and come back home walking, no problem.
[00:32:00]
JJ:
But it wasn’t bothering you, the shooting and all of that your mom was talking
about. Was it bothering you?
SQ:
If it was bothering me?
JJ:
Yeah, were you worried about that?
SQ:
Remember, I was 14. I didn’t care about any of that. That wasn’t -- all we cared
about -- our friends and what clothes and what I was going to wear the following
day. I didn’t care about none of that. Now -- by thinking of it, now I would have
cared because, remember, once you start getting older, then that’s when you
realize, okay --
22
�JJ:
But at that time, you didn’t --
SQ:
I didn’t --
JJ:
-- or you were more mad that you were coming to Puerto Rico.
SQ:
Right. I was upset because we were coming. And I had to leave my best friend,
and I had to leave my stuff, that kind of stuff. [00:33:00]
JJ:
But didn’t you think, “I’m coming to my home”?
SQ:
No, I didn’t think of that at all. I didn’t think of none of that.
JJ:
You didn’t think Puerto Rico is your home or --
SQ:
No because -- I came a couple of times for vacation. That, I did. And it was
great for vacation. But then, after a while, everybody that I knew here -everybody was older. So, I didn’t -- and then, to speak Spanish, it was so
difficult. So, I didn’t really care if I came or if I didn’t come. You understand?
JJ:
Right.
SQ:
So, I didn’t really care. But then, after the weeks starting going by, then we were
going to school.
JJ:
So, you come and where did you move to when you came here? The same -where you mother and father were staying?
SQ:
No, we stayed at my grandma’s house. And it was by my grandmother’s rules,
and it was a little difficult because we already had Mom’s rule. Then we had to
go by Grandma’s rule. So, we weren’t allowed to touch the television. The
television turned on a certain hour. [00:34:00] And then, if you were watching
something and the hour passed, they turned off the television. So, they didn’t
care who was watching it. So, there were just little bits and bits of things that
23
�little kids didn’t really like. So, little by little -- but then, after a while, just old
people thing. So, we just left it. So, we would play outside. Mom said, “There’s
other things to do. Go outside and play.” So, that’s what we did. At least we had
brothers and sisters because there was nobody else there to play with.
JJ:
Okay. And what’s your grandma’s name?
SQ:
Where we used to live?
JJ:
Your grandma -- yeah, where you stayed at.
SQ:
Carmen Rivera.
JJ:
Carmen Rivera, okay. And so, that’s not in Camuy though. She doesn’t live in
Camuy.
SQ:
Yeah, she lives in Camuy.
JJ:
But not in the same section. Isn’t it Quebrada or no?
SQ:
Yeah, she lives in Quebrada.
JJ:
Oh, she does?
SQ:
Yeah.
JJ:
Okay. So, all the Quiles are in Quebrada.
SQ:
All the Quiles are here in Quebrada.
JJ:
In all the different spots. [00:35:00]
SQ:
Yes, we’re all here. Yes.
JJ:
So, was Daisy here at that time?
SQ:
Was Daisy here at that time? I don’t -- I think she was or -- I don’t remember. I
know after a while, after a time, yes, I know she was here. I know they were
fixing her house. I do remember that.
24
�JJ:
To come.
SQ:
Yeah, to come.
JJ:
So, fixing her house to come.
SQ:
They were fixing her house to come.
JJ:
So, it was like a group of people coming to fix her house and coming to move her
back to Puerto Rico. She wasn’t moving back. It was her husband, right?
SQ:
It was her husband’s house. I guess it’s from their family’s house.
JJ:
And your father is moving back because he was from here.
SQ:
Right. Actually, the house where my mom -- where I used to live -- Mom’s house
was up. Except it didn’t have doors. It didn’t have windows. It had a floor.
[00:36:00] And that’s it. It didn’t have anything else.
JJ:
So, your father finished it?
SQ:
Yeah, little by little. Actually we lived in the house. There was no light. And then,
we didn’t have any furniture. We had a couple mattresses, I think maybe two
beds. Mom slept on one. And then, all of us that wanted to sleep on the bed, we
slept on it. If not -- you know, kids like to sleep on things that aren’t a bed. So,
we just slept on mattresses. We didn’t care. (laughs) So, we had fun. We slept
in a house with no television (laughs) at all and nothing really to do. I remember
what we did most of the time. We played marbles all night. That, I do remember.
Marbles all night, or we would sit on the porch, which there was no railing at the
time. We weren’t allowed to sit close to the edge. [00:37:00] But we would go
outside and -- but we were in our home, so it didn’t really matter.
JJ:
So, you just came over. Well, you had come before for vacation.
25
�SQ:
Yeah, I came for vacation.
JJ:
So, you knew more or less how it looked?
SQ:
Yeah.
JJ:
So, it was an easier adjustment then (inaudible) but now you can’t go back to the
U.S. How did you feel about that, I mean, at that time?
SQ:
Well, no, we couldn’t go back because we didn’t have anything to go back to
because we were all over here. And the only thing that was there was Dad. But
Dad was working.
JJ:
So, you didn’t get homesick?
SQ:
Well, no, because I was with my mom, and I was with my brothers. We did miss
Dad. But we would get to talk to him over the phone.
JJ:
He was still over there?
SQ:
He was over there. He was working. He was working over there until he was
able to come. And then, he came.
JJ:
So, you didn’t feel homesick?
SQ:
No, because I had Mom. It was fine. [00:38:00]
JJ:
So, then you took a few weeks and then you moved to your new hours?
SQ:
No, I think it took us a couple of months maybe.
JJ:
Now, you -- there were other people that you met.
SQ:
Well, when I went to school, I met a lot of people that knew English. So, that way
it made it easier for me. Actually, one of my good friends here -- she came, I
think it was from New York. So, she knew good English, and I was able to
communicate with somebody that knew English that was easier for me because I
26
�would say a lot of words -- which I still do -- a lot of words that she didn’t even
know what I was saying, that I would tell her in English. She goes, “No, you’re
saying it wrong.” So, lucky for me that I did have a friend that did know English.
[00:39:00]
JJ:
So, lucky for you that you had a friend that knew English. But I’m saying all the
English speakers would hang out together?
SQ:
All of us would stick together, exactly.
JJ:
So, now you’ve got a little club here (inaudible)?
SQ:
Right. All the English people all together.
JJ:
But I’m not just -- I don’t want to put words in your mouth.
SQ:
No, but that’s the way it was.
JJ:
How was it? What do you mean?
SQ:
Yeah. That’s how it was. All the Americans or how I would say it -- we would all
stick together. We would all speak in English, and it was easier for everybody
else.
JJ:
So, you guys called yourself all the Americans or you -- that’s just --
SQ:
They would call us the gringos in school.
JJ:
Yeah would call you that?
SQ:
Yes, (laughs) they would call us that. So, if somebody needed to speak to us,
they would go, “Go to the corner and check in the gringo section.” And they
would go straight to that spot. They already knew where we were at. We were at
the same hour, the same time every single day.
27
�JJ:
And what would you call it now? They called you gringos. What would you call
them?
SQ:
We wouldn’t give them names. I mean, what could we call them? Everybody
was Puerto Rican. (laughs) You can’t give them a name.
JJ:
So, you still look at them as Puerto Rican.
SQ:
Right.
JJ:
But they didn’t look at you?
SQ:
No, they looked at us as gringos, like white people. We just had an advantage.
That’s it. We knew English. That was the only thing. We knew English and
Spanish. So, it was a little difficult for them. And then, actually, when they
needed help, they would go to us. They would go to the section there where we
were at. “Oh, can you help me with my English class,” or, “Can you help me do
this project in English?” They had an advantage too. As long as they were good
to us, we weren’t going to be mean to anybody. (laughs)
JJ:
So, we’re talking about advantage. So, did it kind of make you feel like you knew
more than they did?
SQ:
No. I wouldn’t -- no, no, no, no, no, no.
JJ:
Like superior? I mean --
SQ:
Yeah. No.
JJ:
-- did it make you feel like superior to them?
SQ:
Not at all. Not at all. [00:41:00]
JJ:
Did they think you were superior to them?
SQ:
Some people thought that --
28
�JJ:
That you were (inaudible)?
SQ:
-- we would think that we would be too good for them because we knew English
and they didn’t know English.
JJ:
Because you were too goody-goody or whatever?
SQ:
Yeah, that’s what they would think. But --
JJ:
But that wasn’t what was going on.
SQ:
-- that wasn’t the point. No. It was -- we didn’t know how to speak good
Spanish, so we had to speak English.
JJ:
Now, that wasn’t the point with you, but you think that could have been the point
with some other people?
SQ:
No, actually, everybody that was with us -- that’s what our --
JJ:
All the gringos.
SQ:
-- idea was. Right, all the gringos. We would always think, you know, nobody’s
better than nobody. Mostly everybody that was there, they were from the church,
so like Pentecostal. They had a different thinking. They liked to help everybody.
JJ:
So, most of the gringos? And I’m just saying -- just using that in quotation marks.
SQ:
Right, right, right (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). (laughter)
JJ:
Most of the gringos were -- some were Pentecostal?
SQ:
Right.
JJ:
Different Protestant churches? And the ones from here were more Catholic? Is
that what it was? [00:42:00]
SQ:
I don’t know. I can’t -- no, I can’t --
29
�JJ:
But because they were from the church, they were more trying to help
everybody?
SQ:
Yeah, they would help a lot. Yeah.
JJ:
And which school was that?
SQ:
Here at Santiago R. Palmer.
JJ:
Santiago R. Palmer.
SQ:
The only thing here is -- the school here is completely different because they
have the elementary school, the high school, and -- what would be the other
one? I don’t know. I know there’s another --
JJ:
It’s like in between. Yeah, the in between.
SQ:
Yeah, the in between one. I always forget the in between. Well, here, they’re all
together in one building. They have the different buildings. They would have the
small section for the small kids. And then, you cross the street, which it’s all
covered completely. You’re not allowed to pass. They had the other section,
which would be the one in the middle. And then, they had the high school. But
they’re all connected all together. Now, over there, [00:43:00] you have to go to
certain schools because they’re all different. Not here. Everything’s all in one
spot.
JJ:
So, you just -- when you graduated from grammar school, was going to middle
school, and then you go into the high school in the same building.
SQ:
Right.
JJ:
You don’t go nowhere?
SQ:
No, you were all there.
30
�JJ:
So, that’s kind of important.
SQ:
You just switch.
JJ:
Would that make you want to quit --
SQ:
No.
JJ:
-- or would it make you want to stay in school?
SQ:
Because elementary school is on one side. And then, to go to middle school -you would have to cross the street to go to the middle school. And then, to go to
the high school, you just cross the corner. It’s all one whole -- it’s like if it was
one whole entire block. Let’s put it that way. Or we can put like six houses all
together, and it made the school.
JJ:
So, you think that -- would that make people want to stay more in school or
(inaudible)?
SQ:
Yeah, because they were all together. So then, all activities was for the whole
entire school. So, it would be better. It’s not like, “Oh, we have to take the kid to
go to this school, and then we’ve got to go now to this one.” No, everybody
[00:44:00] goes to the same school.
JJ:
So, there’s no readjustment.
SQ:
Right.
JJ:
And so, it was easier for you to want to just stay in school.
SQ:
Right.
JJ:
But in the U.S., it’s different, right?
SQ:
Yes, it’s very different because, remember, elementary school is all school, all for
little kids, which would go up to sixth grade, I think from kindergarten up to sixth
31
�grade, right? And then, from sixth grade to -- I don’t know what grade it is over
there. Here -JJ:
Middle school.
SQ:
Right. Here is from seventh to ninth --
JJ:
But then, you had to go to a different school to --
SQ:
Right.
JJ:
So, that’s a new adjustment.
SQ:
Right. Not here. Here is -- you know everybody and everybody knows you.
That’s how it is.
JJ:
And so, when you came, you just had to adjust one time.
SQ:
Right. I didn’t have to worry about, “Oh my gosh. Now we’re going to another
new school.” No, everything is all together.
JJ:
Do you think that helps?
SQ:
Yeah, it does. Actually, it does. You’re not changing your routine. [00:45:00] It’s
all there. The only thing is the first day of school is normal. That’s it.
JJ:
So, what kind of uniform?
SQ:
Oh my god. I hated the uniforms. (laughter) I hated the uniforms.
JJ:
(inaudible)
SQ:
Well, at that time, which is still the same uniform, was brown. No, no, now they
changed it. Now, they changed the uniforms. Back then it was brown and
checkers. Ugly uniform. And before that was red, square red and blue and
white.
JJ:
Checkers too or --
32
�SQ:
Checkers, yes. So, they had like two different -- no, terrible. Thank God I don’t
go to school anymore. (laughs)
JJ:
So, was it just that you didn’t like the look or -- maybe that prevented gangs.
What do you think?
SQ:
Actually, speaking of that, in the school I never saw gangs at all. No gangs at all.
JJ:
In the school in Camuy?
SQ:
No, no school -- at least here in Quebrada, no gangs at all. None at all. I mean,
nothing. Everyone was “hi” to everyone, “bye” to everybody. Everybody was
friends with everybody in school. There was no gangs of nothing. Thinking of it
that way, no, nothing at all. I mean, not at all. If there was a fight, it was just that
person. Nobody else got in it. And that’s it. But it’s -- I mean, I’ve never thought
of it that way. But actually, there was no gangs at all, nothing.
JJ:
And you don’t think the uniforms had anything to do with it?
SQ:
No, I don’t think so. I think the uniform was just to help -- well now, we know you
go to this school, and that’s it. You understand? So, we didn’t have --
JJ:
So, then would --
SQ:
-- any other kids --
JJ:
Yeah, but if everybody --
SQ:
-- coming from somebody else.
JJ:
-- if everybody’s wearing the same uniform, it would make them all from the same
gang?
SQ:
No, no.
JJ:
If you’re looking it like a gang member would look at it.
33
�SQ:
Okay. I don’t know because I’ve never --
JJ:
Yeah, I know. (laughs) I’m just drawing this out. But could it be that the
[00:47:00] uniform might help because everybody’s wearing the same uniform,
so they’re not going to fight each other.
SQ:
Well, that wouldn’t make a difference.
JJ:
It wouldn’t make a difference?
SQ:
It wouldn’t make a difference.
JJ:
Okay.
SQ:
It wouldn’t make a difference because if you couldn’t stand the person and you
still wanted to fight, you’re still going to fight the person whether he’s in the gang
or not in the gang. Do you understand? So, it didn’t really make a difference at
all. I don’t think it mattered.
JJ:
So, it was just the environment or the culture?
SQ:
I think it was the environment completely. Everybody got along with everybody.
JJ:
When you say environment, what do you mean?
SQ:
Well, I mean -- how would I put it to you? Everybody was nice to everybody.
There was no, “Oh, I’m better than you and I’m this.” No, none of that at all. I
mean, there was maybe like -- in every school there’s one kid that thought he
was better than anybody else. But otherwise that, no.
JJ:
It was just one individual?
SQ:
Yeah, just one or maybe two (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) but that’s it.
[00:48:00]
JJ:
Yeah, but it’s no group of people.
34
�SQ:
No.
JJ:
Now, people did hang out with their little friends, didn’t they?
SQ:
Yes. Every --
JJ:
You had the gringo group (inaudible).
SQ:
Right. Everybody had certain spots. I know they do that still.
JJ:
Right.
SQ:
Everybody was with everybody. And if they would say, “Hey, come over here,”
everybody would go. Everybody would have fun, and everything was perfectly
fine. But being as gangs here in school, I’ve never seen it.
JJ:
In Quebrada?
SQ:
In Quebrada. I’ve never saw it, never, at least when I was in school. So, that I
could tell you.
JJ:
But you’ve heard of other gangs in other schools though?
SQ:
No, I haven’t.
JJ:
You haven’t?
SQ:
No.
JJ:
In Puerto Rico? You haven’t heard of --
SQ:
Probably there is.
JJ:
But you haven’t heard about it?
SQ:
I haven’t heard of it. I guess it’s because -- I figure my children are fine. No
gangs in school. Nothing’s going really bad in school, so I didn’t really worry
about it. I didn’t worry.
JJ:
So, even the gringos got along with the ones from here. [00:49:00]
35
�SQ:
Yeah. Everybody got along.
JJ:
And the (overlapping dialogue; inaudible).
SQ:
Yeah. Everybody got along with everybody.
JJ:
-- easier to communicate.
SQ:
Right.
JJ:
But there was some little --
SQ:
There’s always that petty talk and that stuff always. It doesn’t matter where you
live. It doesn’t matter who you are. That’s always everywhere.
JJ:
So, what do you think contributed in the environment? What was the good thing
in the environment that made people not want to be in gangs?
SQ:
I think it’s because everybody’s straight out. I was taught from my mom if you
don’t like something say it, but say it to the person. So, I guess that’s how
everybody was.
JJ:
Straightforward?
SQ:
Right. Everybody let you know, but not in a bad way, let you understand, “Hey, I
didn’t like it.” And I think that’s the best.
JJ:
So, people --
SQ:
And I’ve taught my son that. If you don’t like something, don’t make them feel
bad, but just let them know that you didn’t like it.
JJ:
Why would you tell your son that?
SQ:
I would tell my son so that if there was something that he [00:50:00] didn’t like
from somebody, that that person did, just let them know, “I don’t like what you
said. Don’t do it again.”
36
�JJ:
But why wouldn’t you hold it in?
SQ:
Why would you hold it in? Then you get mad and you get upset. Then you hate
the person. And then, what comes out of that? Nothing. So, just let the person
know, “I didn’t like it.” And if you tell them you don’t like it, they won’t do it again.
That’s it.
JJ:
So, you think that’s better. If you hold it in, it’s worse --
SQ:
Right.
JJ:
-- than if you tell somebody?
SQ:
I think it is.
JJ:
But why? I don’t understand?
SQ:
You don’t understand?
JJ:
No.
SQ:
Well, because sometimes, if you hold it in and then they do it again, you get more
upset. And then, they do it again and you get more upset because you didn’t say
anything. And then, you get really mad and really mad. And then, what’s the
next thing? You’re going to argue with the person because of it. So, just let them
know straight off the first time, “I didn’t like it.” But say it in a nice way, not in a
bad, nasty way. Tell them in a nice way, “I didn’t like it. Can you please not do it
again?” And then, I guess they -- most people would get it. “I’m not going to do it
again because [00:51:00] I don’t want to hurt their feelings.” So, they don’t do it
again.
JJ:
So, you’re trying to teach your children communication.
37
�SQ:
Right. That’s the best. If you communicate with the person, nobody’s going to
argue. No one’s going to fight. No one’s going to think you’re better than
anybody. You’re just the same person as everybody else. That’s how I see it.
JJ:
And most of the people in the area, in Quebrada, were -- taught their children to
be like that or to be straightforward?
SQ:
Well, most of my friends, when I was in school -- that’s how I know their kids are
because, when my son is at the house, I usually end up with his friends, and
that’s how his friends are with him. “I didn’t like that.” They let them know. They
communicate. That’s good. I always tell them, “That’s better than arguing.
That’s better than fighting.” It’s the best way. I guess that’s the way Mom and
Dad showed us.
JJ:
Okay, well, that’s a good point. Mom and Dad. You had Mom and Dad.
[00:52:00]
SQ:
Right.
JJ:
But did most of the children around here have a mom and dad?
SQ:
Yes. Like I said, at least the ones that I know of, yes, they do.
JJ:
So, they have both parents in their house?
SQ:
Yes, yes. There could be maybe one or two that didn’t. But they still knew
because their parents would show them. Either the mom or their dad would
show them.
JJ:
Okay. So, even if they didn’t have Mom and Dad, they still had a strong person
to --
SQ:
Right.
38
�JJ:
-- like a mother or father that raised them --
SQ:
Right.
JJ:
-- and taught them how to communicate. That’s what you’re saying?
SQ:
Yeah.
JJ:
Okay. That’s good insight. So, did you have your quinceañera here or --
SQ:
No, no.
JJ:
Did you --
SQ:
I didn’t. Why -- I mean, we came to Puerto Rico a month before my 15th. So, I
did get a little birthday party. I felt really bad because I know [00:53:00] my mom
felt too because she invited a few of my friends and nobody came. (laughs) But
the people that were there -- I had fun. It was okay.
JJ:
But some people came.
SQ:
Yeah, I think one of my friends. One. (laughter) And the rest of it was the family,
like my cousins.
JJ:
Because you didn’t know anybody.
SQ:
Yeah, that was the problem. We didn’t know anybody at all.
JJ:
Because I always know your mom is -- when she invites people, there’s a lot of
people (inaudible).
SQ:
Yes, there’s always big gatherings at the house, always. Yeah. But we didn’t
know anybody at all. We were just coming here. We hadn’t -- I didn’t know
anybody. I only knew one person really. And then, that’s when I started knowing
more people from school, little by little.
39
�JJ:
So, now you’re -- are you relating to your aunts and uncles here? How is life
now? Once you’re back -- now with your -- at your father’s house, right, at your
house? [00:54:00]
SQ:
When I’m with my dad, at Dad’s house?
JJ:
Yeah.
SQ:
Well, I would see my aunts and uncles if we would go to their house or if we
would see them at my grandma’s gatherings at her house. That’s when I would
see all of my aunts and uncles.
JJ:
So, gatherings. So, certain special days of the year?
SQ:
Yeah. Sometimes they would do Grandma’s birthday or Thanksgiving.
JJ:
So, what was that like? I mean, (inaudible) --
SQ:
Oh my gosh. That’s --
JJ:
People show up or --
SQ:
-- too many people. Too many, yeah. Well, my grandma had 12 kids. So,
imagine that by probably each family five maybe. Could be less, but I don’t think
so. (laughs) So, it’s a lot of people, a lot.
JJ:
So, people showed up?
SQ:
Big gatherings, yeah.
JJ:
Did they play music or anything? [00:55:00]
SQ:
No, hardly ever. There was hardly ever any music. I didn’t think they really
needed the music because everybody was talking and you couldn’t hear anything
anyway.
40
�JJ:
Right. Was it -- they didn’t because of religion or something? They didn’t believe
in (overlapping dialogue; inaudible).
SQ:
I think it was because of Grandma. My grandmother didn’t like the music. She
would say it’s too much noise. So, they wouldn’t put music, at least at my
grandma’s house. No music at all. At all. No one was allowed to put music on.
(laughs)
JJ:
(inaudible)
SQ:
But I know my uncles -- they would play the guitar. And they would play with the
güiro and the maracas. That, I know they would do (overlapping dialogue;
inaudible), which they didn’t really how to touch it.
JJ:
[Armando?] and them?
SQ:
Yeah. They didn’t really know how to play the music and stuff, but they would do
their little movements here and there. And everybody would laugh and sing at
the same time.
JJ:
Right.
SQ:
So, it was good.
JJ:
So, you didn’t go at all to San Salvador though? You didn’t go to Caguas or --
SQ:
Yeah, I did actually. [00:56:00] I stayed there when my Aunt --
JJ:
Because that’s your mother’s side --
SQ:
-- Mirna lived there.
JJ:
-- of the family.
41
�SQ:
Right. I was there when (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) Titi Mina was there.
And then, Titi Lacey and Tío Israel, when they had -- they were living in the
house --
JJ:
Oh, they were.
SQ:
-- that was there. I did stay there. I do remember Tío a lot. He would always be
fixing the -- the back part, there was a little stream or a little --
JJ:
Back -- in the back. You’re right.
SQ:
-- tiny stream. He would always make sure -- you’ve got to keep the rocks this
way so the water doesn’t over pour on this side. And I do remember when it
would rain a lot, the water would grow.
JJ:
You’re talking about Israel?
SQ:
Yeah.
JJ:
Tío Israel. So, he would be playing with the (inaudible).
SQ:
He would make sure -- it wouldn’t be -- I wouldn’t call it fixing -- you know, playing
with it. I would think he would just be more fixing it so the water wouldn’t go
towards his house. I do remember that. I do remember him always outside. I’ll
never forget that. [00:57:00] And he still does it. He’s always outside in the yard,
him and his yardwork. He doesn’t know the words “stay still.” (laughs) That I do
realize a lot here from the older Puerto Ricans. Like I have a neighbor. She’s
old. She’s really old. And she doesn’t stay still at all. I either see her with a
shovel in her hands -- she’s always doing something. And I was like, “Can you
be still?” She won’t be still. She’s constantly with the shovel. “No, I have to do
this, and I have to plant this.” She’s either planting tomatoes or peppers,
42
�something. She’s always doing something. And I realize most Puerto Ricans
from the older time -- that’s what they do. They’re always planting something,
always.
JJ:
So, as you go over there, was he planting anything? [00:58:00] Was Israel
planting anything at the house?
SQ:
Tío, he always did. Always, always. I can’t tell you one thing that he -- he’s
always -- he always -- I do remember, without a doubt, we always had banana
trees, always.
JJ:
Over there?
SQ:
Always. He always had banana trees. That I do remember.
JJ:
At that house?
SQ:
Yep. And then, I think -- the first time I saw -- to me, it was fascinating was -they would do the rice. And then, they would put these bananas leaves on it.
The first time I saw it, I was like, “Why are they putting grass on the rice?”
(laughter) I never knew what it was. And then, you know, after a while, they
would explain to me. If gives it better taste to the Puerto Rican rice. I was like,
“Oh, okay.” To me, that was like -- wow. Why would you put grass or a plant
inside your rice? I never figured that one out until little by little you start learning
the old tricks the old people do. I mean, I’m [00:59:00] not saying that they’re
really old. But the older, older people would do that.
JJ:
Okay. When I came here the first time, I started discovering new things. I was
even eating grass because I thought -- they would give it to me and I would eat it.
SQ:
Grass?
43
�JJ:
I mean, different --
SQ:
It would probably recao.
JJ:
No, they were playing with me. They would bring me a food and then they would
give me a grass.
SQ:
How would they do that? That’s not nice.
JJ:
I mean, they would (inaudible) I’m just -- but I was learning things. I was
fascinated. I was learning things (inaudible) like that. So, what sort of things
were you learning as you came here?
SQ:
Well, I did learn recao goes in the food here. (laughs) I never knew that. I knew
my mom, in Aurora -- they would buy it, but it would be already fixed up and
everything. But then, I saw Dad one time -- or I think it was my mom -- taking out
stuff. I was like, “Mom, why are you going to put grass in the food?” She goes,
“It’s not grass. Smell it.” I was like, “I’m not smelling that.” And then, once I
started cutting and figuring it out, what’s it for, and she would explain to me,
[01:00:00] I was like, “Wow, all these different things that you don’t see in the
states at all, you get it here anywhere.” I mean, any piece of grass you can find
it. It’s like if it’s wild stuff, they put it in the food. And it tastes really good.
JJ:
So, the recao you got to know that.
SQ:
Yeah, the cilantrillo.
JJ:
Cilantrillo.
SQ:
That’s also --
JJ:
What about fixing different food? Did you learn how to fix different food?
SQ:
Yeah. Mom showed me, and Dad did too. Dad cooks really good. (laughs)
44
�JJ:
Really?
SQ:
Yeah. Mom showed us, my sister and me, how to do certain foods with certain
stuff, like the recao, the cilantrillo. Well, they would call it -- what? Recao?
JJ:
Yeah.
SQ:
Not the recao, sofrito. It would be the sofrito.
JJ:
Sofrito.
SQ:
Yes.
JJ:
She showed you that? She showed [01:01:00] how to do the sofrito?
SQ:
She showed me how to do that. That’s --
JJ:
So, what is --
SQ:
Sofrito is -- well, it would be something that you would stick to taste, give a good
Puerto Rican taste to the food, which it would have recao, cilantrillo, onions,
green beans -- I mean, not green beans -- what was --
JJ:
Peppers?
SQ:
-- green peppers, yes, green peppers, and especially --
JJ:
Onions?
SQ:
-- and especially ajo, especially that.
JJ:
So, you can’t get that over at the --
SQ:
The ajo, yeah. You can get ajo in -- that would be garlic.
JJ:
Oh, garlic (overlapping dialogue; inaudible).
SQ:
Yes.
JJ:
That would have been (inaudible) those three peppers too, right?
45
�SQ:
That would be aji dulce, yes. You have to. If you don’t put that in and you don’t
put recao, that’s no sofrito. (laughs) You have to have those two. Those are the
very first thing everybody runs to get to do the sofrito. It is your recao and your
aji dulce. [01:02:00]
JJ:
Okay. You’ve got to have that in there?
SQ:
You have to have that in there.
JJ:
Now, do they put tomato in there or no? They don’t (inaudible).
SQ:
My mom never did. But some people do it. But my mom never did it. She liked
it -- the green one, not the red on.
JJ:
Do you fry anything like tocino or anything to put the flavor or no?
SQ:
Yeah, it all depends what rice you’re going to do.
JJ:
Oh, that’s for the rice --
SQ:
Right.
JJ:
-- but not for the sofrito.
SQ:
Yeah, yeah. You can do it whichever way you want to. You could do it by itself.
You could put beans in it. You could do whatever.
JJ:
So, you could put whatever you want in the sofrito?
SQ:
Yeah, whatever you want.
JJ:
So, you do that first. And you cook that first. And then, you put the (inaudible).
SQ:
And then, I put everything in.
JJ:
And you put the rice in it.
SQ:
Right.
JJ:
Okay. That’s a good one. Now I know how to do that. (laughter)
46
�SQ:
You didn’t know how to do that one, did you?
JJ:
(inaudible)
SQ:
A lot of people say, “Oh, Puerto Rican food is difficult.” I don’t know if it’s
because I’m Puerto Rican, but it’s easy. I remember the first time my mom
showed me how to cook. She could have showed me the easiest thing to make,
and it was the first thing I burned, which was white rice. I burned it. And my
mom goes, “What smells?” [01:03:00] I go, “Well, I cooked rice.” She says, “You
didn’t lower the fire.” (laughs) So, I burned it. I do remember that. And that was
the first time I ever cooked. That was in Aurora. Very first time.
JJ:
Now, when you were in Aurora, did you tell people you were Puerto Rican or you
were American?
SQ:
I guess they already knew the way we would speak.
JJ:
But you didn’t have an accent. I mean, you grew up there.
SQ:
Well, I guess probably -- I don’t know -- I probably did.
JJ:
But you’re saying people knew that you were Puerto Rican?
SQ:
Yeah, I was called -- sometimes I was called Mexican. I would say, “I’m not
Mexican. I’m Puerto Rican. I’m full blooded Puerto Rican.” And I would say I’m
full blooded because my mom and my dad -- they’re both Puerto Ricans.
JJ:
Right. Even though you were born here.
SQ:
Right.
JJ:
Okay. But you felt like you were --
SQ:
I was still Puerto Rican. [01:04:00] I mean, my mom and my dad were Puerto
Rican. I would call myself an American Puerto Rican.
47
�JJ:
Okay. So, you came here already feeling Puerto Rican. But then, you came
here and you wanted to be gringa.
SQ:
I came here, I felt like a mouse (laughs) because I didn’t know what I was doing.
I was afraid of everything.
JJ:
You were afraid?
SQ:
Right. But then, that is a point. I came here --
JJ:
Afraid of the people or --
SQ:
I was afraid of everything because everything was different. Everything was
completely different. The roads were different as in the roads over there are
straight. And over here, it’s just curves and curves and the mountains and
curves. It’s scary. And then, all you can see is -- you look down the side and all
you can see is a cliff. And you look on the other side, you can see another cliff.
And I was like, “I’m just looking straight.” (laughter) You feel like a little mouse.
[01:05:00]
JJ:
But that’s in the road. But I mean, did the people make you feel like -- make you
shy or no?
SQ:
Well, in school, yeah, because I didn’t know. I didn’t know how to speak good
Spanish. I knew a lot of stuff, but I didn’t know good Spanish. I still don’t know
good Spanish. Don’t get the wrong. Because I still give that Spanglish. If I don’t
know what I’m saying, I’ll say it in English, or if I don’t understand it in English, I’ll
say it in Spanish. But I just feel like a little tiny mouse because you don’t know
where you’re at and you don’t know what you’re doing. I guess it would be like
that everywhere you would go new. So, it’s just adapting little by little.
48
�JJ:
So, it definitely made you feel kind of shy in the beginning.
SQ:
Right.
JJ:
But you don’t feel like that now?
SQ:
No, not at all.
JJ:
Okay, not at all?
SQ:
Not at all.
JJ:
Your neighbors know that, right. (laughter)
SQ:
Yeah, the neighbors hear me from a mile away. I’m just kidding. [01:06:00]
JJ:
But I mean, you’ve got a whole -- all those neighbors around you know you,
right? I mean, (overlapping dialogue; inaudible).
SQ:
Yes, I know all of my neighbors.
JJ:
You know a lot of people in the barrio.
SQ:
Yes, I do, especially my neighbors. I know all my neighbors. And I guess it
would be like the States, “Hi,” and, “Bye,” and that’s it. But the only difference is
we can keep our doors open. That’s the only difference.
JJ:
You couldn’t do that in Aurora?
SQ:
No, not at all.
JJ:
Because you can keep your doors open and your neighbors know -- they watch
out too, or no?
SQ:
Yeah because sometimes -- like an example, if I’m sick or something and the
neighbor knows you’re sick, all the sudden you see your neighbor comes up with
a bowl of soup in their hands. You know, “I made you some soup.” And the other
neighbor comes and goes, “Oh, I made you some supper.” That’s how the
49
�neighbors here are. We try to take care of one another. So, if something’s wrong
with one and then -- [01:07:00] we just try to communicate. Some neighbors are
good. Not all neighbors are good. Don’t get me wrong.
JJ:
There’s one or two that are not (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)?
SQ:
I guess in every place, there’s always one person that doesn’t like this or one
person that doesn’t like that. Do you understand? It’s not here. It’s not there.
It’s everywhere. It doesn’t matter.
JJ:
(overlapping dialogue; inaudible) what I’m trying to find is what would -- in this
place, what would make somebody not like their neighbor or their neighbor not
liking you?
SQ:
I guess --
JJ:
I mean, for what kind of things would they be angry about?
SQ:
I don’t know. Maybe, I guess, they’re just grouches or -- I don’t know -- or they
just --
JJ:
Did you go on their grass or something?
SQ:
No. That’s a good thing. Here, there’s very, very little houses with fences, I
mean, that don’t have a fence because all the houses here have fences. So, it
doesn’t matter [01:08:00] whether you walk on the grass or not because the only
one that’s going to walk on the grass is you because it’s your house. Now, over
there -- and I know in Aurora.
JJ:
But there’s always grass in the front. I mean, there’s always --
SQ:
Yeah. But that part -- they don’t really care because they usually say that’s the
government.
50
�JJ:
Oh okay.
SQ:
Because actually the government’s the one who cuts the grass. But inside -here, I think maybe one -- you can go all the way down the road, and you can
find one house that has no fence. All the rest of the houses have to have fences.
I like my house without a fence. But I got lucky. I ended up with a house with a
fence.
JJ:
But before they didn’t have fences -- I mean, they did have -- I guess they had
some made out of -- it wasn’t fancy fences. Now, they’re more fancy.
SQ:
Yeah, now they’re more fancy.
JJ:
They’re more fancy.
SQ:
I do remember pictures that they did show me, which was my ex-mother in law --
JJ:
(overlapping dialogue; inaudible) how many years (inaudible)? [01:09:00]
SQ:
I’ve been here -- in this house?
JJ:
No, in (inaudible).
SQ:
Oh my gosh. I don’t remember. Twenty --
JJ:
Is it that long?
SQ:
Yeah, 27, 28, something like that.
JJ:
Wow, okay. So, your neighbors, as you were saying -- what were you saying?
SQ:
I don’t even remember.
JJ:
I did you stop you there. Sorry.
SQ:
That’s okay. (laughs)
JJ:
We were talking about the neighbors.
51
�SQ:
Okay. My ex-mother in law -- she showed me pictures. When she came here,
there was -- actually where I live now, there was this house, the house in the
front, and the house on the side. And there were no other houses except two
more houses all the way down on the corner. That’s it. No more houses. Now,
there’s houses everywhere. And then, the road was a dirt road. It was just no
tar, no straight, nice, clean street. No, everything [01:10:00] was just a dirt road.
JJ:
So, they just put the cement road.
SQ:
Not now. I mean --
JJ:
A long time ago.
SQ:
Yeah. But when she came --
JJ:
When she came, it wasn’t here.
SQ:
-- there was no road really here. There was just dirt. It was a dirt road.
JJ:
But so, now it’s pretty -- most of the houses, when there’s like a hurricane, there’s
no problem, right?
SQ:
No, not -- unless your house is made out of wood. That’s really it. But there’s
hardly any houses nowadays made out of wood. They’re very few, and the very
few is -- they’re little, tiny houses.
JJ:
In the United States, in Florida, they even have cement houses that are messed
up. But they have glass though.
SQ:
The glass broken?
JJ:
Yeah, they had glass.
SQ:
Well, yeah, that happens here with the glass.
JJ:
Glass (inaudible).
52
�SQ:
Yeah. But otherwise that --
JJ:
Otherwise the house is pretty sound?
SQ:
I don’t know about mine because mine’s really old, old house. I don’t know
(overlapping dialogue; inaudible) how old it’s been. [01:11:00] Yeah, as long as
it’s cement, it’s good.
JJ:
So, you finished school. You finished high school? Did you finish that or no?
SQ:
(inaudible) to say, no I didn’t finish.
JJ:
You didn’t? When did you drop out?
SQ:
I dropped out, I think, when I was in 11th, 10th and 11th because I had so many
classes back --
JJ:
You only needed one more year. One more --
SQ:
Right. I -- no, no.
JJ:
Because it’s --
SQ:
Not because I needed one more year. I needed more than one more year
because I had ninth grade Spanish, 10th grade Spanish, 11th grade Spanish.
(laughs) You see, the Spanish was difficult for me. So, I just dropped out. And
what I did was I took my GED.
JJ:
Oh, you got your GED.
SQ:
Yeah, [01:12:00] I took half the GED. I didn’t take the other half.
JJ:
Wait a minute. You dropped out of 11th because you were having difficulty.
SQ:
No, I dropped out in ninth grade.
JJ:
Oh, in ninth grade because you were having difficulty?
53
�SQ:
Yes, because remember whether I am taking 11th grade classes, I’m still in ninth
grade because I didn’t finish my Spanish. So, I’m still in ninth grade when I’m
taking 11th grade classes.
JJ:
Right. Hold on one second.
(break in audio)
JJ:
Okay, so we’re talking about some of the reasons why you wanted to drop out.
SQ:
Well, I dropped out because I wasn’t doing anything in school. I was just fooling
around. I didn’t really -- Mom thought --
JJ:
Fooling around with a boyfriend --
SQ:
I didn’t care.
JJ:
-- or something?
SQ:
No, no, no, no. I didn’t care. I didn’t know Spanish. I didn’t really care what I
was doing. You’re young and you’re stupid. And you don’t think of the future.
You just think, “Oh, I want to have a good time,” and that’s it. [01:13:00] So, I
ended up dropping out. I took the GED. I did that. And when while I was taking
my GED, I was taking cosmetology school at the same time.
JJ:
How old were you?
SQ:
So, I took my test.
JJ:
But you dropped out for a few years first? Or was it just one year --
SQ:
No, I just --
JJ:
Right away, you dropped --
SQ:
Right away, right away.
JJ:
-- and then started cosmetology?
54
�SQ:
A couple months -- yes, a couple months later, I took --
JJ:
And then, (inaudible).
SQ:
I took my GED. I was old enough to take my GED. I took it. Then, I went -- I
took cosmetology. I did that for a few years, and I have my license and my
diploma.
JJ:
So, you took cosmetology for a few years. So, you graduated? You said you got
your license.
SQ:
From cosmetology.
JJ:
What is cosmetology? What is that?
SQ:
I cut hair. I do girl stuff, like I say.
JJ:
Oh, okay. I call them barbers.
SQ:
Of course, because barbers are the guys. The guys do the hair. (laughter) I’m a
cosmetologist. I do all girl stuff. [01:14:00] So, I figured out, “Okay, I’m not going
to just sit down, not do nothing.” So, I went to school. I did that. Actually, I got
that -- you usually have to pay. I got it free. I didn’t want to --
JJ:
Now, see, that’s creative. So, you’re more creative. So, that’s something that
you would like to do.
SQ:
Right.
JJ:
The school was getting boring. You didn’t --
SQ:
Yeah, it was really boring. (laughs)
JJ:
I’m just trying to find out why you dropped out.
SQ:
I was fooling around. I was just a girl that liked to have fun, didn’t want to do
school stuff. I didn’t care about school. I didn’t really care. So, like I said,
55
�(overlapping dialogue; inaudible) I was young and stupid. I didn’t think of my
future.
JJ:
Yeah. But I mean, do you know why you didn’t care?
SQ:
No. That’s what I’m saying. I was young and stupid. I didn’t care of anything.
And then --
JJ:
You just didn’t have any goals.
SQ:
Right.
JJ:
Is that what you’re trying to say?
SQ:
Right, right. I didn’t (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) have any goals in life at
that time. At that time, I didn’t care what I was going to do.”
JJ:
So, you weren’t thinking about what you were going to do --
SQ:
No, I wasn’t thinking of anything.
JJ:
-- ten years from now. But then, you got into cosmetology.
SQ:
I got into cosmetology. [01:15:00]
JJ:
So, why did you get into that?
SQ:
Because I liked it. Mom says, “If you like it so much, why don’t you go to
school?”
JJ:
So, you were doing it anyway?
SQ:
I was doing hair and makeup in my house. So, Mom said, “Well, if you like it, do
it.” So, I did. I went. I took cosmetology. I did that. I liked it. Then I ended up
working in different salons.
JJ:
Okay. So, you did get a job doing that.
SQ:
Yes, I did get a job doing that.
56
�JJ:
So, you have theory and practice. You have done that. Then you got a license.
SQ:
Right.
JJ:
Okay, so, actually you can do that -- that’s a business.
SQ:
Right, I could if I want to. But it gets boring. At least -- I get bored after a while. I
don’t understand why. I like to do different things because I get bored.
JJ:
Well, some people are creative. And some people are --
SQ:
I like to do the stuff --
JJ:
-- they make -- they’re day to day stuff. So, there’s nothing wrong with that. I
mean, I -- what I’m saying is there’s difference.
SQ:
Oh, okay.
JJ:
You know that. [01:16:00] So, that’s probably why you get bored. You’re more
the creative type.
SQ:
Right. I (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) did like to do hair because I could do
different stuff. And I did makeup because it was different. I didn’t like to cut hair.
I did do it, but I didn’t like it. It wasn’t a passion for me. But I liked to comb hair
because, remember, once you comb hair, it’s one hairstyle. It’s a different thing.
You’re going to do something different. So, that’s what I like to do. I guess I like
to be the different one.
JJ:
But I don’t want to put words in your mouth. I mean, that’s what I’m thinking, that
you’re a creator. I don’t know if you’re a creator or not.
SQ:
I hope so. (laughter) I hope so. So then, after that, I worked in a few salons.
Then I worked in the mall for a while. I did have my son though also. So, I was a
single mom. I was married.
57
�JJ:
What’s your son’s name?
SQ:
Andrew.
JJ:
Andrew?
SQ:
I was married. Then I guess young and stupid. We got divorced.
JJ:
So, you were married before. To whom was that?
SQ:
To Alex.
JJ:
Alex?
SQ:
Yeah.
JJ:
Now, was he from here?
SQ:
Yeah. He was from New York.
JJ:
Oh, that was [Posty?]. I remember him, Posty. They used to call him Posty?
SQ:
Yes.
JJ:
I remember because --
SQ:
They used to make fun of him.
JJ:
-- I came to visit. When I came to visit, they called him Posty because you were
always hanging out -- onto the [post?].
SQ:
Yeah, he’s so tall. (laughter)
JJ:
Right.
SQ:
He is so tall and I’m so short. But like I say, young and stupid. I got married
when I was 21. I had my son.
JJ:
Young and stupid meaning -- because you were with him for a while though,
right?
SQ:
Yeah, I was with him about seven, eight years. We got married.
58
�JJ:
And he was from New York?
SQ:
He was from New York.
JJ:
He grew up in New York City?
SQ:
Yeah, he grew up there and then came here. And I guess I was his [01:18:00]
girlfriend from high school. So, I ended up with him one year of marriage, one
year, just one year.
JJ:
You guys just didn’t get along?
SQ:
No, at all. Like I’ve always said, he’s a great person. He’s a good dad. And I
couldn’t -- picked the best father for my child. But as a husband, I don’t want
him, not even as a gift. (laughs) We get along. We still do get along. We get
along.
JJ:
So, he did not have husband skills as (inaudible)?
SQ:
I guess we were, like I said, young and stupid. We were both stubborn. It was
what I wanted. It was what he wanted. So, two people butting heads is not easy.
JJ:
But he was not abusive or anything?
SQ:
No, no, no, no.
JJ:
Just stubborn.
SQ:
Just stubborn.
JJ:
Okay. Just a couple thing.
SQ:
Stubborn.
JJ:
So then, you -- [01:19:00] is he Andrew’s father?
SQ:
Yes, he’s Andrew’s dad. Yes. We get along for our child’s sake. Even though I
say my child -- he’s, what, 19.
59
�JJ:
But Victoria is Victor’s?
SQ:
Right. Victoria is from my second.
JJ:
From your second. Okay.
SQ:
I’m staying with that one. (laughs) That’s good enough. I’m going right now -with my second husband -- on 17 years. I did --
JJ:
Some people do --
SQ:
-- I am 17 years.
JJ:
Some people do marry a few times.
SQ:
Yeah, you’re the only (inaudible). (laughter)
JJ:
I’m not in the interview. This is yours. So, your son is born. Where was he
born?
SQ:
We only lasted a year of marriage.
JJ:
He was born here?
SQ:
Yes, he was born here. He was born in Arecibo.
JJ:
In the hospital in Arecibo. [01:20:00] So now you’re a mother. How does that
feel?
SQ:
Great. I love my kids. That’s the best feeling, the best feeling you can get, being
a mama.
JJ:
So, that was a good thing?
SQ:
Every day is something different. Every day.
JJ:
So, how was he growing up?
SQ:
He was a quiet child, quiet, didn’t bother me, just quiet. I mean, I couldn’t ask for
the best child -- and then, the first one usually is so difficult. It was so easy for
60
�me. I guess it was because -- since my brother was small, I already had the
practice with my brother because my mom would have put me to babysit. So, it
was easier for me for my son.
JJ:
You’re talking about Danny.
SQ:
Yeah, Danny.
JJ:
Danny was small, so you were babysitting Danny.
SQ:
Yeah.
JJ:
So, that was like practice.
SQ:
I guess. I would call it practice, yeah.
JJ:
Were you changing diapers and things like that? So, you already knew how to
[01:21:00] (inaudible).
SQ:
I knew how to handle that, yes.
JJ:
How to handle all the yelling and screaming? (laughs)
SQ:
Yeah. And then, well, Andrew, he’s -- what -- 19 now. I still call him my baby, still
my baby. But 19 and he’s tall, really tall.
JJ:
And he went to school -- didn’t he got to --
SQ:
Yeah, he went to school. He’s a chef now.
JJ:
He’s a chef?
SQ:
Yeah, he went to culinary school. He’s a chef.
JJ:
So, did he finish his high school or no?
SQ:
Yes, he finished high school.
JJ:
And then, he went to culinary school, or did he go to college?
SQ:
Yes, he went to -- no, he went to culinary school.
61
�JJ:
Okay, he went to culinary school. Okay. And now that’s what he’s doing? He’s a
chef?
SQ:
Yes, he’s a chef. I think he wants to go to Virginia to go study something else.
I’m not sure what the something else is. But I know he wants to keep studying.
But sometimes he wants to go, sometimes he doesn’t. I told him, “You’ve got to
make up your mind because life is short. Do what you like to do now because
life is short.” Do it right. I let him -- I let my child learn [01:22:00] the hard way
and I don’t know if that’s because that’s what my parents showed me, you have
to learn the hard way. They didn’t always give it to you, “Here, take this,” in a
silver platter, “Do it this way.” They said, “Is that’s what you want, you have to
earn it.” So, that’s how I show my child, my two kids. So, my daughter -- yeah,
she’s a spoiled one. (laughs)
JJ:
But do you think they mean -- when they say you learn the hard way, do you
think they mean you’ve got to work hard or --
SQ:
I had to work for what I wanted.
JJ:
Right. You think that that’s --
SQ:
Right.
JJ:
-- what they meant or --
SQ:
Right, yeah.
JJ:
-- or learn the --
SQ:
No, no, not --
JJ:
“I learned the hard way and I’m (inaudible).”
62
�SQ:
Well, everybody’s different. You understand? But my mom showed us -- I can’t
give it to you because then you’re not going to know what the value is. Do you
understand? So, you have to work for it.
JJ:
So, you have to work.
SQ:
Right. So, you have to work for what you want, like my son. My son says, “Oh,
my car broke down.” “What do you want me to do?” [01:23:00] “Can you give me
some money?” “No, go get a job.” And that’s why I -- I try to show my daughter
too. I didn’t have everything handed to me in my hands. I have to figure out how
am I going to get it so I can get a better life? How can I do it? What can I do so
you can get it better? That’s what she says, “Well, if you give me a dollar, I can
use 50 cents and I can save the rest.” And I got, “That’s (inaudible) way to earn
your money because I’m not going to give you what you want.” Nowadays,
everybody goes, “Oh, so you’ll shut up and leave me alone, I’ll go buy it.” No, I’m
not going to do that. Even though my kids are spoiled because I do try to give
them everything they do want. But I try to show them a certain point. I’ll give you
half, but you’ve got to give the other half so then you can get what you want.
Because they’re not going to learn the value. And that’s how my mom showed
me. [01:24:00] I guess it’s the way they say -- the way your mom teaches you,
that’s the way you’re going to teach your kids in the future. And that is so true.
That is so true.
JJ:
So, what about Victoria? How did you feel when she was born? That’s a
different --
SQ:
Oh my gosh. It was completely --
63
�JJ:
So, you were separated for one and then you got married.
SQ:
We weren’t separated at all. We were --
JJ:
I mean, you were in your --
SQ:
My husband?
JJ:
-- Andrew’s --
SQ:
-- Andrew, yeah. But Andrew’s father is apart. I was with Victor. Victoria is
Victor’s.
JJ:
So, he left right away after the birth.
SQ:
Well, because --
JJ:
So, actually Victor raised Andrew.
SQ:
Andrew, right.
JJ:
Oh, Victor raised Andrew too.
SQ:
Yes. Victor’s been with Andrew since he was two years old.
JJ:
Okay. That’s what I was -- okay. So, Victor raised him too.
SQ:
Yeah, they both did because the dad was always there for his son, always.
There was no doubt about that. He was always with his child no matter what.
JJ:
Okay. So, he’s been in contact with Andrew?
SQ:
Yeah, always, always.
JJ:
Okay.
SQ:
No matter what. If [01:25:00] there’s a problem, I call his father, let him know.
JJ:
Everybody gets along?
64
�SQ:
Everybody gets along. That’s the first and the main thing, I always say. Good
communication with the dad’s child because you need him. It takes two people
to show your child. Not only one did it, both.
JJ:
What do you mean, it takes two people?
SQ:
Well, because he’s a boy. If she was a girl, I could show her the girl things. Now,
he’s a boy. Who is he supposed to go to? He could go to my husband. But he
had to go to his dad so his dad would explain to him -- which my husband would
explain to him and tell him things, but his dad also had to do that because that’s
Dad’s part. And that’s the good thing of life. “I’m a dad. My son asks me these
questions. What do I tell him?” Do you understand?
JJ:
So, Victoria -- we’re talking about Victoria now. [01:26:00]
SQ:
Oh, Victoria. Well, what do you want to know about Victoria? She’s --
JJ:
Well, just -- I mean, she was a little girl when -- just to (inaudible).
SQ:
She’s a firecracker.
JJ:
She’s part of your story.
SQ:
My son was nice and calm. Now, this one’s the firecracker. (laughs)
JJ:
And she’s going to see this later. Explain what you mean. Explain what you
mean.
SQ:
Well, she’s too hyper. And she’s just -- she listens and she wants to know
everything. “What’s that? And what do you use that for? And why do you have
that? And I don’t understand.” You know, these questions. Why, what -- too
many questions, I tell you. It’s too many questions. “Calm down. Wait a second.
Mom will answer one at a time.” [01:27:00] And she’s like, “Hurry, hurry, hurry,
65
�hurry, hurry.” So, she wants to know more. So, I guess she’s just -- she’s not
easy to handle. She’s a great daughter. She’s great. And that -- I won’t deny it.
But she just -- I guess her brain is just like, “What’s that for? I want to know.” If
there is something that I don’t know -- actually in the computer -- I end up calling,
“Victoria, I don’t understand this. Can you help me?” She’s nine years old, and
she’ll just do it right away. She goes, “Mom, you’ve got to do this, this, this.”
Nowadays, it’s like, “Wow, what happened?” Kids are just -- they know more
than older people now. I guess the problem is also -- I never babied my kids. I
showed my kids as an adult. So, my daughter talks as an adult. I guess that
helps also.
JJ:
Now, what do they think? Are they Puerto Rican or how do they feel? [01:28:00]
SQ:
Who, my kids?
JJ:
Yeah. Or do they even think like that?
SQ:
My kid does, yeah, both of my kids. “I’m Puerto Rican. My mom and my dad are
Puerto Rican.” Andrew’s dad is half Cuban.
JJ:
Oh, he is half Cuban.
SQ:
So, he does certain things and says certain things that are different than what we
do.
JJ:
Different words.
SQ:
Yeah, different words.
JJ:
Different accents and stuff like that.
SQ:
Yeah.
66
�JJ:
I guess what I’m trying to say is what does that mean to you? I mean, Puerto
Rican -- I mean, I’m just trying to figure out --
SQ:
What does it mean to me?
JJ:
Because you were born in (overlapping dialogue; inaudible).
SQ:
Hey, I’m proud. I’m proud. I’m proud of being Puerto Rican. I am proud of being
Puerto Rican. And I’m proud of being an American. So, I mean, people --
JJ:
So, how can you balance both things? That’s what I’m trying to get at.
SQ:
How would I balance it?
JJ:
Yeah.
SQ:
Well, I mean, [01:29:00] there’s not really much of a difference. We do the things
almost the same except we speak it in Spanish and they speak it in English.
Because an example -- if I want to make rice -- you can’t tell me an American
doesn’t know how to make rice. The only thing is they do it their way and we do
it our way. It’s the same thing. They teach their kids probably -- they give them -what -- time out. We just give them, “You’re grounded. Get in the room.” It’s the
same exact thing. It’s just -- they would probably think a different culture. But I
just think it’s the same. There’s no difference really. We’re all the same. I don’t
think there’s anything -- I bet if you asked a Mexican, “What would you think of
being an American,” they’d probably say the same exact thing. “We’re all the
same.”
JJ:
But they’re Mexican from Mexico and then you guys are Americans from the
United States. [01:30:00] And you’re Puerto Ricans.
67
�SQ:
But that doesn’t make a difference. That’s what I’m trying to tell you. We’re all
the same. They eat probably the same things we eat. You understand?
JJ:
We’re all human beings. You’re saying we’re all human beings?
SQ:
Yeah, we’re all humans. Doesn’t matter --
JJ:
Or is that -- am I putting words in your mouth?
SQ:
No, no, no. You’re not putting words in my mouth.
JJ:
We’re all human beings.
SQ:
We’re all the same. We don’t -- it doesn’t really --
JJ:
But we are from different countries.
SQ:
Well, we all have different cultures, all, everybody because whether -- one thing
that makes me laugh is -- I’ve heard a lot of people say, “Oh, I’m not Black. I’m
Puerto Rican.” What do you think a Puerto Rican is? A Puerto Rican is -- I say it
as a joke. I say a Puerto Rican is a mutt. That’s what I say. But I say it fooling
around because we’re mixed. We’re half Indian, half what -- Taíno. Right? That
would be an Indian. Some of us are dark skin. Some of our light skin. Some of
us are blonde. We have different cultures in us. [01:31:00] So, people say, “Oh,
I’m not Black.” “Yeah, you are Black. You’re half Black no matter what.” “Oh, I
don’t have this color skin.” “Yes, you do because you’re Puerto Rican.” That’s
how I see it.
JJ:
So, if you’re Black, you’re Puerto Rican, you mean?
SQ:
I see it that way.
JJ:
Because we come from different cultures.
68
�SQ:
We come from different cultures. I would call it hodgepodge of a lot of mixed
stuff all stuck in one.
JJ:
But what are the main cultures that Puerto Ricans come from?
SQ:
I think it’s -- if I’m not mistaken, Taíno.
JJ:
Taíno’s one of them.
SQ:
Right, the Taíno.
JJ:
Okay. But they didn’t teach that in school in the school year?
SQ:
Yeah, they did. But you’re asking me -- how many years ago? I don’t remember.
(laughter)
JJ:
I mean, did they say we come from Spain?
SQ:
I don’t -- if I tell you something, I would be lying to you because --
JJ:
Okay, I don’t want you to tell me.
SQ:
-- I don’t really remember.
JJ:
I don’t want you to tell me.
SQ:
Really. But I know --
JJ:
But what you’re saying basically is we’re all the same.
SQ:
We’re all the same, exactly. Because [01:32:00] a dark skinned person or -- I
don’t like to say -- an African American, as we should be calling them -- we have
African American in us. You understand?
JJ:
Oh, that’s what I’m saying. We have that in us?
SQ:
Yes, we do.
JJ:
But why? Where? Where did we get that from?
SQ:
Well, I mean, if you look years back, there is the Taínos. They weren’t white.
69
�JJ:
No, they were Indian.
SQ:
Right. And an Indian is --
JJ:
So, where’s the African --
SQ:
-- dark skin.
JJ:
-- where does the African come from.
SQ:
I don’t -- you see --
JJ:
I don’t want to give you detention.
SQ:
You’re putting me on the spot. I don’t really know. But I do know that we do have
that in --
JJ:
Since I’m putting words in your mouth, I guess we were supposed to be
descended from the --
SQ:
There you go.
JJ:
-- African. African, European, Spanish, and Taíno Indians.
SQ:
Right. There you go. Those are the words that I’m trying to say.
JJ:
Now I’m putting words in your mouth.
SQ:
Thank you.
JJ:
I’m not supposed. [01:33:00]
SQ:
But that’s what I was trying to get to. I couldn’t get it to -- but --
JJ:
I think you got it there. You got it. You got it.
SQ:
Yes.
JJ:
So, we have a different culture then?
SQ:
Yeah, we do.
JJ:
Okay, alright.
70
�SQ:
We do. I mean, we have -- I would say -- like I said, hodgepodge --
JJ:
I mean, can you tell me --
SQ:
-- a little bit of everybody.
JJ:
-- could you tell -- coming from the United States here, could you tell that there
was a different culture? That’s a --
SQ:
Could I tell the difference?
JJ:
-- loaded question. That’s a loaded question.
SQ:
Yeah, I could. (laughter) I could tell a difference completely because here,
everybody wakes up at six o’clock in the morning. In the United States, not
everybody wakes up at six o’clock in the morning. Give me a break. We get up
late. I would call us a little lazier. Now, Puerto Ricans are -- get up five o’clock in
the morning, six o’clock in the morning. Then you can hear the shovels. You can
hear people cutting the grass. You’re like, “It’s so early in the morning.” When I
came here, I was like freaked out. I was like, “What is this?” [01:34:00] I didn’t
understand. I really didn’t understand. And then, food time is the same hour
every day. I don’t know how it is over there. But I know our family wasn’t like
that. Everything is completely different. The foods that we eat -- they would -here they would eat vianda, which -- I know my dad ate that, but we never saw it
at a thing. We would see it as a delicacy over there, and here, we see it as an
everyday thing. So, a lot of different stuff. A lot.
JJ:
Okay. What -- you would see different things like vianda. But you said we would
see it -- when you say “we” are you talking about in the United States or here?
[01:35:00]
71
�SQ:
No, I’m saying my family. In the States -- when we were living over there, we
wouldn’t see that every day. We would see regular American food. We’d have
Italian food or hot dogs and hamburgers. Well, we would eat rice, yeah. But we
would more eat spaghetti and other kind of food. It's not like that here. If you
don’t eat rice, you’re not eating at all. You understand? You have to have rice on
your plate because, if not, that’s not a meal. That’s how they see it here. If
there’s no rice, no meal. They’ll say, “Oh, you just had a snack.” That’s how I
see it.
JJ:
Over here.
SQ:
Over here.
JJ:
But before you said I saw it like if I was an American here. But then, you come
over here and you see it as a Puerto Rican.
SQ:
Right, yeah because I was used to American food.
JJ:
But you were born there. But you’re living here. Whatever you -- and you say
you’re Puerto Rican. So, what are you? [01:36:00]
SQ:
What am I now?
JJ:
Yeah.
SQ:
I still consider myself an American Puerto Rican.
JJ:
An American Puerto Rican?
SQ:
That’s how I consider myself still.
JJ:
That’s what I wanted to ask.
SQ:
Yeah. My kids -- they know that -- they’ve never gone to the States. But they
say, “My mom’s an American Puerto Rican, and I’m Puerto Rican.”
72
�JJ:
Which comes first?
SQ:
Which comes first?
JJ:
A loaded question. For you. I’m just trying to --
SQ:
Wow. Which would come first for me? Well, I do still consider myself an
American, I do because -- I don’t know -- I guess just the lifestyle over there is
completely different, which I do like. And I would consider myself afterwards
Puerto Rican.
JJ:
Okay. So, American first and then Puerto Rican?
SQ:
Right. That’s how I see myself. Not everybody does. But that’s how I see
myself. I’m an American Puerto Rican.
JJ:
Okay. That’s fine.
SQ:
But there’s no difference because --
JJ:
No, there is no difference.
SQ:
-- I’m still [01:37:00] Puerto Rican. Trust me. I’m not getting rid of my Puerto
Rican because I’m proud of who I am. You understand? I’m proud of being a
Puerto Rican, and I’m also proud of being an American Puerto Rican. Don’t get
me wrong on that one.
JJ:
So, you said Puerto Rican twice. So, that’s good. (laughter)
SQ:
Well --
JJ:
Either way is good. Either way is good.
SQ:
Right.
JJ:
This is an oral history. It’s about you. So, either way is good. I think you’re
looking at it and saying, “Well, I don’t know what Tío wants me to say.” (laughter)
73
�SQ:
No, no, no, no. That’s how I feel. I’m saying what I feel.
JJ:
Alright, good. Alright. That’s good. Now, we can do -- before we go into -- I want
to look at some of the creative stuff that you do. But are there any other
questions we should -- anything else that we should add to this before we get
into that.
SQ:
I don’t know. You ask me. You ask me, and I’ll tell you.
JJ:
Okay. But I don’t -- I just want to know like what -- I’m asking you some things
that I think I should ask you. But is there anything [01:38:00] that I forgot?
SQ:
No, not that I know of.
JJ:
We’re both (inaudible) as we know.
SQ:
Probably.
JJ:
Okay. Let me turn this off, and then, we’ll turn it back on.
(break in audio)
JJ:
Okay because I’ve only got like five minutes on this camera.
SQ:
I made that little stool. It used to be a telephone table where you put your
telephone at. I took off all the top part and I just --
JJ:
Where’d you get a telephone table at?
SQ:
I found it in the garbage. (laughs)
JJ:
Oh, okay. So, you get your raw materials free.
SQ:
Probably do.
JJ:
What about these things? Did you make any of these?
SQ:
No, I didn’t make none of that.
JJ:
Okay, alright. Let me go over here. How about those things over there?
74
�SQ:
No, that’s just recycled stuff. I have -- I think the Coke full of top things from the
Coke, beer, whatever. You can get it. [01:40:00] I put it all in there.
JJ:
You just put in the vase.
SQ:
Right. And then, I have -- the other one that has red in it. Those are seeds.
JJ:
Those are seeds from -- what kind of seeds?
SQ:
Those are camándula. And the other one -- it’s just Dorito bags clipped up. I
have all different kind of baggies in there.
JJ:
And you put them in the bowl there?
SQ:
Yeah, and I made confetti.
JJ:
That took a long time to cut those up though.
SQ:
Yeah, I put my daughter, to relax her, down so she can sit and calm herself down
to cut paper. And that usually works with kids. Give them a piece of paper and
scissors and they’re happy. Then this table that I have here. That used to be a
dining room table.
JJ:
Okay, there we go.
SQ:
So, I just had my dad --
JJ:
Okay. That was a dining room table?
SQ:
Yes. I had my dad cut it right in half. So, I made two tables.
JJ:
Okay. The other one’s on the other side over there.
SQ:
Right.
JJ:
And that’s that other -- okay.
SQ:
And where my [01:41:00] television is at -- that used to be a -- it would be --
JJ:
The table you mean?
75
�SQ:
Yeah, that table. That was something else. I don’t know really --
JJ:
But I mean, where did you get that at?
SQ:
Well, it was at Mom’s house. And it was all old fashioned stuff. So, I just drew up
the design I wanted. And I gave all the pieces to a neighbor, and he did that for
me.
JJ:
Okay, he painted it and stuff.
SQ:
Yeah, I painted it. I sanded it down.
JJ:
Oh, you painted it and sanded it?
SQ:
Yeah, I painted it and I sanded it down. Okay. What’s on the top -- that used to
be from a bed. Took the iron work off the bed. That used to be mine and my
sister’s bed when we were living with my mom. It broke. So, I wanted still a
piece of the bed. I’ve carried that with me for years.
JJ:
Okay. What about the wall?
SQ:
I did the wall.
JJ:
Okay. You’re talking about this wall right here? [01:42:00]
SQ:
Yeah, that took me a week. I took a plate with a design and I just drew it over
and over.
JJ:
Individually?
SQ:
Yes.
JJ:
One by one?
SQ:
One by one. It took me a week or do that all by myself.
JJ:
It’s all on one --
SQ:
I drew it first, and then, I painted it on.
76
�JJ:
Okay. All on one side. Okay. We want to go -- okay.
SQ:
That table, I have --
JJ:
This table?
SQ:
-- my jewelry that’s there with the seeds. That to make --
JJ:
Oh, this jewelry right here?
SQ:
Yes. To make that -- this one that’s here -- to make this only, it can take me up to
two weeks. By the time I look for the seeds -- I don’t at all do anything to them. I
don’t paint them. I don’t do nothing.
JJ:
Those are seeds?
SQ:
These are seeds. [01:43:00]
JJ:
Oh, okay.
SQ:
It takes me weeks. So, by the time I clean them out, get the little bugs and
everything in it, and I dip it in some certain varnish stuff so all the insects and the
goop that’s on the inside comes all out. So, it takes a while to do.
JJ:
But all the different -- you got gray in there. Do you color them?
SQ:
No, I don’t do nothing to them. This is the way it is.
JJ:
Oh, those are the colors right here?
SQ:
Yes. The seed -- that’s the way it is. That’s it.
JJ:
The seeds of what tree? Do you know it?
SQ:
I don’t know the name. And then, this here -- this also -- this is just recycled. I
made this out of old --
JJ:
Milk things?
SQ:
Yeah. The little lids from the milk.
77
�JJ:
From the lid, the milk lids?
SQ:
Yeah, that’s what I did. I don’t want to go into any more details because that’s
my secret. (laughs)
JJ:
Okay.
SQ:
And then, here is another bracelet with bamboo, which I get the bamboo.
[01:44:00]
JJ:
You got the bamboo from the trees here.
SQ:
I got the bamboo from the trees, which you’re only allowed to cut certain ones,
because if you cut the wrong ones --
JJ:
The city will get you?
SQ:
Yeah. (laughs) It’s not a pretty picture. So, they let you get the ones that are
fallen down.
JJ:
You’ve got a bracelet on your hand. Are you (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)?
SQ:
I made this too, myself. Iron, an iron bracelet. I made it. I only make one of a
kind. I never make two of the same because it’s never going to be the same. I
make these also. It’s also out of metal. It’s a little hard to -- let’s see. These are
one of a kind. And no bead, no nothing. Nobody else would have the same
bracelet. If they do want it, it would be impossible for me to match it. Impossible.
JJ:
Because those are what -- rocks?
SQ:
These are long rods, and I [01:45:00] shape them myself.
JJ:
Rocks?
SQ:
They’re rods. They’re long rods.
JJ:
Rods. Okay, and you shape them.
78
�SQ:
And I shape it myself.
JJ:
What are those little --
SQ:
These are glass beads.
JJ:
You just bought those.
SQ:
Just glass beads, random glass beads. You can get plastic, whatever you want
to put it in.
JJ:
This is an arts and crafts.
SQ:
Right.
JJ:
Okay.
SQ:
You see, it’s the same one except they’re all different. Like I said, there’s never
two of the same.
JJ:
And those you put -- you made out of -- is that woodwork or what? You just got
those?
SQ:
These?
JJ:
No where the candles are.
SQ:
No, actually these were a gift. I did end up --
JJ:
Okay, that’s a nice picture on the wall too. What’s that -- is that what they call it -[flamboyant?] or whatever or no?
SQ:
No, that’s a [Amarilla?].
JJ:
Okay.
SQ:
Those are also -- I think you can also find those flowers in Hawaii if I’m not
mistaken.
JJ:
Oh, okay, okay. Alright. [01:46:00]
79
�SQ:
(inaudible)
JJ:
Where? By the --
SQ:
In the (inaudible).
JJ:
At the (inaudible) okay. So, this is going to be a window, right? You made that?
SQ:
No, I didn’t make that.
JJ:
One’s over by the door.
SQ:
The doors?
JJ:
The doors, yeah, because you said you were into doors. Okay. Now, get back
here for that. So, that’s the door. Where did you get that door?
SQ:
Well, actually, that’s a lot of pieces of wood all put together. They snap on like if
it was the floor, the wooden floors. And I had Dad snap them on all together. So,
I sanded it down, I painted it, and I made it look like a door. So, I put all these
different little doorknobs on them. They’re all [01:47:00] vintage and I found them
in different places. But I’ve been asked so many times, “Are you selling those
doorknobs?” And the one at the top here, it has the mosaic. Those are glass.
The glass, I found on the beach. And everything else inside -- what I did was --
JJ:
And that’s a door too?
SQ:
Yeah, it’s a door. That was my mother’s kitchen cabinet door. But since that’s
good wood, I didn’t want to get rid of it. I was like, “Wow, good wood. I know I
can use it for something.” So, what I did was I put little hearts and little
knickknacks inside of it as a memory for my kids. Each one has something about
my children. And then, the one on the top here where the mirror is at, that used
to be my mother in law’s. It was blue and white. And I [01:48:00] fought over the
80
�mirror because (laughs) I wanted it. And when I finished, this is what I got. Good
wood and a nice door.
JJ:
And let me see. What about the boat?
SQ:
Those are my son’s boats.
JJ:
Those are your son’s? He made them?
SQ:
No.
JJ:
Oh, he didn’t? Okay.
SQ:
He didn’t make those. Some guy made them. I don’t (overlapping dialogue;
inaudible). Those used to be my dad’s door from the house door.
JJ:
Which one?
SQ:
That wood -- those wooden things around there.
JJ:
So, you put --
END OF VIDEO FILE
81
�
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b9b3978dcb9acc9c800a8322ae2bef99.mp4
6d2a8ef1c698b4468192b832617543d9
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection
Subject
The topic of the resource
Young Lords (Organization)
Puerto Ricans--United States
Civil Rights--United States--History
Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.)
Personal narratives
Social justice
Community activists--Illinois--Chicago
Description
An account of the resource
Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives.
The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Jiménez, José, 1948-
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-04-25
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Format
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Language
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eng
spa
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-65
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
2012-2017
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Título
Spanish language Title entry
Sandra Quiles vídeo entrevista y biografía
Descripción
Spanish language Description entry
La historia oral de Sandra Quiles, entrevistado por Jose 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez el 11/21/2012 acerca de los Young Lords en Lincoln Park.
Sujetos
Spanish language Subject terms
Young Lords (Organización)
Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos
Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia
Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.)
Mexicano-Americanos--Relatos personales
Justicia social
Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago
Mexico-Americanos--Illinois--Chicago--Condiciones sociales
Relaciones raciales
Conflicto social
Identitad cultural
Partido Pantera Negra. Illinois Capítulo
Source
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a>
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-65_Quiles_Sandra
Title
A name given to the resource
Sandra Quiles video interview and transcript
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Quiles, Sandra
Description
An account of the resource
Oral history of Sandra Quiles, interviewed by Jose 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez, on 11/21/2012 about the Young Lords in Lincoln Park.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Jimenez, Jose, 1948-
Subject
The topic of the resource
Young Lords (Organization)
Puerto Ricans--United States
Civil Rights--United States--History
Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.)
Mexican Americans--Personal narratives
Social justice
Community activists--Illinois--Chicago
Mexican Americans--Illinois--Chicago--Social conditions
Race relations
Social conflict
Cultural identity
Black Panther Party. Illinois Chapter
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video/mp4
application/pdf
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2012-11-21
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c1295b70122642973f9f24fa29d3b38a.pdf
ff11d5aff141760754660da714e86d16
PDF Text
Text
Young Lords
In Lincoln Park
Interviewee: William Quiles Rivera
Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez
Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections
Date: 5/16/2012
Biography and Description
English
William Quiles is the brother-in-law of José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez and has been married to Juana “Jenny”
Jiménez for over 40 years. They live in Camuy, Puerto Rico where they are surrounded by Mr. Quiles’s
many brothers and sisters. Prior to moving to Camuy, Mr. Quiles and Ms. Jiménez met in Aurora, Illinois
where they lived for many years, raising their four children, Margie, Joey, Danny, and Sandy. Mr. Quiles
has long been active in local softball teams and bowling leagues and worked in the factories. He is well
know and respected in both the Aurora and Camuy communities. In Puerto Rico, Mr. Quiles works in
construction and built his own cement home. For many years he also worked on the cattle farm of a
close friend. Several of his brothers have been active with the Puerto Rican Independence Party.
Spanish
William Quiles es el cuñado de José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez y ha estado casado con Juana “Jenny” Jiménez
por más que 40 años. Viven en Camuy, Puerto Rico donde están rodeados con la familia de Quiles. Antes
de vivir en Camuy, Señor Quiles y Señora Jiménez se conocieron en Aurora, Illinois donde vivieron por
muchos años y criaron a sus hijos, Margie, Joey, Danny y Sandy. Señor Quiles ha sido parte de los juegos
de softbol y boliche, y trabaja en una fábrica. Es buen conocido y respectado en la comunidad de Aurora
�y Camuy. En Puerto Rico, Señor Quiles trabaja en construcción y construyo su propia casa de cemento.
Por muchos años también trabajo en una granja de vacas con un amigo. Unos de sus hermanos han sido
activos en el Partido independista Puertorriqueño.
�
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/66c2a3c239231d41113522c94af80601.mp4
28735972964e34699cd511e2e69f95b3
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection
Subject
The topic of the resource
Young Lords (Organization)
Puerto Ricans--United States
Civil Rights--United States--History
Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.)
Personal narratives
Social justice
Community activists--Illinois--Chicago
Description
An account of the resource
Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives.
The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Jiménez, José, 1948-
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-04-25
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video/mp4
application/pdf
Language
A language of the resource
eng
spa
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-65
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
2012-2017
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Título
Spanish language Title entry
William Quiles vídeo entrevista y biografía
Descripción
Spanish language Description entry
William Quiles es el cuñado de José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez y ha estado casado con Juana “Jenny” Jiménez por más que 40 años. Viven en Camuy, Puerto Rico donde están rodeados con la familia de Quiles. Antes de vivir en Camuy, Señor Quiles y Señora Jiménez se conocieron en Aurora, Illinois donde vivieron por muchos años y criaron a sus hijos, Margie, Joey, Danny y Sandy. Señor Quiles ha sido parte de los juegos de softbol y boliche, y trabaja en una fábrica. Es buen conocido y respectado en la comunidad de Aurora y Camuy. En Puerto Rico, Señor Quiles trabaja en construcción y construyo su propia casa de cemento. Por muchos años también trabajo en una granja de vacas con un amigo. Unos de sus hermanos han sido activos en el Partido independista Puertorriqueño.
Sujetos
Spanish language Subject terms
Young Lords (Organización)
Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos
Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia
Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.)
Puertorriqueños--Relatos personales
Justicia social
Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago
Source
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a>
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RHC-65_Rivera_William
Title
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William Quiles video interview and biography
Creator
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Quiles, William
Description
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William Quiles is the brother-in-law of José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez and has been married to Juana “Jenny” Jiménez for over 40 years. They live in Camuy, Puerto Rico where they are surrounded by Mr. Quiles’s many brothers and sisters. Prior to moving to Camuy, Mr. Quiles and Ms. Jiménez met in Aurora, Illinois where they lived for many years, raising their four children, Margie, Joey, Danny, and Sandy. Mr. Quiles has long been active in local softball teams and bowling leagues and worked in the factories. He is well know and respected in both the Aurora and Camuy communities. In Puerto Rico, Mr. Quiles works in construction and built his own cement home. For many years he also worked on the cattle farm of a close friend. Several of his brothers have been active with the Puerto Rican Independence Party.
Contributor
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Jiménez, José, 1948-
Subject
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Young Lords (Organization)
Puerto Ricans--United States
Civil Rights--United States--History
Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.)
Puerto Ricans--Personal narratives
Social justice
Community activists--Illinois--Chicago
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spa
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
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Moving Image
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video/mp4
application/pdf
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2012-05-16
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2a752975cc3470ff6b90274bb659914a.pdf
f75da741fe793e57dc975b65c3c94019
PDF Text
Text
LATINA/O LEADERSHIP OPPORTUNITY PROGRAM
1993-1994
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Young Lords Oral History Project
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-Presented by:
Yolanda Quinones
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Vicky Romero
Chicago Region
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. DePaul University Library
Special Collections and Archives
FHOTOCOPf
�DePaul University Library
scial Collections and Archi
PHOTOCOPY
�BRIEF BACKGROUND
OF
THE YOUNG LORDS
(dates are approximations. Research is on going.)
The Chicago Young Lords, founders of this Hispanic Movement, were
iifu
the sons and daughters of the first Puerto Rican immigrants to
Chicago. Without funding, they successfully built a national grassroots
movement within the Hispanic Barrios of the United States. It all
began when City Hall decided to create an inner city suburb in Lincoln
Park and in the process displaced the entire neighborhood of the first
Puerto Ricans.
DePaul University Library
Special Collections and Archives
PHOTOCOPY
�(page 2)
1945-1950
Luis Munoz Marin becomes first popularly elected Puerto
Rlcan Governor.
Fomento replaces sugar cane with Industry and Tourism In
Puerto Rico.
U.S. and Mexico In conflict with Bracero Program
Massive unemployment forces Jibaros to emigrate to U.S.
migrant camps.
Jlbaro Tomateros" move from migrant camps to large cities.
1950
1955
Neighborhood barrios of La Clark and La Madison develop In
Chicago.
More massive migration: La Clark and La Madison expand.
I960
Carl Sanburg Village and University of Illinois displaces
thousands of Puerto Rlcans.
;
Lincoln Park and Wicker Park develop Puerto Rlcan Barrios
k
Sons and Daughters of first immigrants go from Athletic
Clubs to gangs.
4
Lincoln Park and OldJTown become an 'Inner-City Suburb."
1968
Young Lords thrash urban renewal office.
Local Mafia owned real estate office Is picketed
All windows of Anglo businesses on Armltage Ave. are
busted.
Jan. 1969
Wicker Park Welfare Office Is stormed by Young Lords and
Latinos.
Cha-Cha conducts political education classes In his living
room.
TIJerlna literature and Black Panther movie is shown to
Young Lords.
EOO People picket Chicago Ave Police station after arrest of
Cha-Cha Jimenez.
DEPAUL University Library
S p e d ! Collections and Arduves
P
PHOTOCOPY
�FEB. 1969
(page 3)
Young Lords go to Corky Gonzales Youth Gang Conference, In
Denver, CO.
Demonstration to Wicker Park Welfare Office.
Cha-Cha is Indicted 18 times In 6 week period. Ranging from
aggravated battery on police to mob action
Ralph Rivera's button Tengo Puerto Rico en ml Corazon"
becomes symbol of Young Lords.
Chicago Ave Police workshop Is taken over by Young Lords.
Meetings begin with Armltage Ave Church for space for
Young Lords programs.
Young Lords march against police brutality.
Alblzu campos march.
Cha-Cha speaks at University of Puerto Rico. Students
spontaneously burn down R.O.T.C'building.
Fred Hampton, Cha-Cha and Young Patriots meet to form
Rainbow Coalition.
Cha-Cha goes on speaking tour with Fred Hampton.
APRIL 1969
Young Lords and 350 Latino community residents take-over
and sit In at Mc Kormick Theological Seminary for one week
until demands are met:
Demands Met;
$ 6 5 0 , 0 0 0 Is to be invested In low income housing.
$25,000 opens a clinic In West Town for Lado.
$25,000 opens People's Law Offices In Lincoln Park.
$S5,000 (committed but never received for a Young Lords
Cultural Center.)
Mayor Daley, Hanrahan and others call for a "War on Gangs"
to attack Black Panthers and Young Lords.
MAY 1969
Manuel Ramos is shot at Orlando Da vita's party by off- duty
policeman James Lamb. Four Young Lords are arrested.
Policeman is not charged.
Service is held at Mc Kormick Seminary for Manuel Ramos
IOOO people join Young Lords in purple berets at St. Teresa's
DePaul University Library
Special Collections and Archives
PHOTOCOPY
�y
( page 4 )
funeral Mass for Manuel Ramos.
Puerto Rlcans side with Young Lords against police abuse.
Young Lords take-over Peoples's Church and set up a Day
Care Center, a clinic, a cultural center, and National
Headquarters.
Gang Intelligence unit and Red Squad station a car 2 4 hrs
day photographing anyone entering Y.L.O. Church, (later It
was learned that "Colntel Pro" was also Involved In inciting
riots. Infiltration, and creating divisions within the Latino and
African-American movements.
i
•
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JUN€ 1969
Urban renewal land to be used for a $IOOO a year tennis
court Is
taken over and 4 0 0 people camp out on Armitage
and Haisted for a week. Later it becomes People's Park arid
Playground equipment is added.
Police create a riot In.People's Park. Cha-Cha arrested for
mob action.
Young Lords march to Humboldt Park with over 10,000
people. Many In purple berets carrying Alblzu Campos and
Manuel Ramos posters.
Chapter of Young Lords opens In New York.
Young Lords Join Black Panthers In support of Bobby Seale
conspiracy trial.
Young Lords visit California and meet with Brown Berets,
Black Panthers, and Black Berets.
Chapter of Young Lords opens in Hayward, CA.
Young Lords march with I.W.W.
S6PT. 1969
Cha-Cha marches with Nationalist Party at Grito de Lares
march in Jayuya, Puerto Rico.
United people to Inform good doers- Uptight is formed to ,
discredit Young Lords. They pass fliers at suburban churches.
Alderman Mc Cutheon's press conference is taken over by
Young Lords. Mc Cutheon is exposed for soliciting prostitutes.
Caballcros de San Juan vote to support Young Lords.
Puerto Rlcan Bishop Antullo Parllla celebrates Mass for
DePaul University Library
Special Collections and Archives
PHOTOCOPY
�( page 5)
Young Lords in Chicago.
Cha-Cha and Fred Hampton arrested at Wicker Park Welfare
Office. Obed Lopez Is beaten by police. Mary lou Porrata Is
assaulted by welfare case worker.
Cha-Cha travels with Corky Gonzalaes on speaking tour.
Young Lords visit Alcatraz during Native American take-over
led by Richard Oakes.
Young Lords visit Cuba through Venceremos Brigade.
Police attempt to disrupt Young Lords block party.
OCTOBER 1969
Emeterlo Betances Health Clinic screens people door-to-door
for lead poisoning
Murals are painted on church walls.
Young Lords donate blood for local Puerto Rlcan
businessmen.
November 1969
Fred Hampton arrested for liberating ice cream and giving It
to ghetto children.
Day Care Center Is fined $ 2 0 0 each day it remains open,
(unless floor is raised 3 feet and the celling Is lowered 3 feet.)
Cha-Cha arrested for $23 dollar theft of lumber, while ten
people flee and escape police, (later Cha-Cha pleads guilty and
receives one year sentence.
DECEMBER 1969
Fred Hampton is murdered by State's Attorney Hanrahan and
Chicago police.
Young Lords attend funeral.
Cha-Cha is told by attorneys not to sleep in same house 2
days In a row.
1970
New York Lords and Chicago Lords meet and both agree to
work independently as revolutionary companeros.
Jose' (Pancho Lind is murdered by a white street gang. The
killer Is a brother of a policeman at scene and is not arrested.
DePaul University Library
Special Collections and Archives
PHOTOCOPY
�( page 6)
Young Lords march to court to no avail.
Rev. Bruce Johnson and his wife are both found stabbed to
death In their beds. Rev. Johnson was stabbed 17 times, his
wife 9 times.
Women members of Young Lords meet with Vietnamese
women at Canada Conference
Young Lords march with Methodist Bishop In memory of Rev.
Bruce Johnson. The Rev. Bruce Johnson case has never been
Investigated nor solved.
Cha-Cha decides to go underground, (while underground
forms 2 chapters of Young Lords sets up a training school,
and works on Young Lords newspaper.
DECEMBER 1972
Cha-Cha turns himself In... before 5 0 0 people at the Town Hal!
police station In 46th ward.
Cha-Cha serves year and then released only after putting up
bond for remaining IO cases.
Cha-Cha plea bargains and decides to plead guilty for mob
action In return for no Jail and probation.
Cha-Cha visits Peoples Republic of China
SEPTEMBER 1973
Cha-Cha announces campaign for alderman of 46th ward.
FEBRUARY 1975
Cha-Cha comes in 2nd and gets 39% of vote in an area with
only IOOO Latino registered voters.
ALSO IN THE MID 7 0 s.
Cha-Cha is wanted for burglary. While In hiding the machine
controlled Uptown Lerner Newspaper runs same article
several times. The burglary case never goes to trial.
Fain Group Is arrested. Cha-Cha Is arrested the same week.
Demands trial and Is released when time expires on speedy
trial law. No witnesses or accusers are brought to court by
state's attorney.
FEBRUARY 1983
Young Lords work together with Puerto Rlcan Parade
Committee.
Cha-Cha introduces Mayor Harold Washington before a
crowd of 100,000 Puerto Ricans In Humboldt Park.
DePaui University Library
Special Collections and Archives
PHOTOCOPY'
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PUEBLO
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A BIOGRAPHICAL HISTORY OF
JOSE CHA-CHA JIMENEZ
GENERAL SECRETARY OF THE
YOUNG LORDS ORGANIZATION
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�"QUE VIVA EL
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A BIOGRAPHICAL HISTORY OF
JOSE CHA-CHA JIMENEZ
GENERAL SECRETARY OF THE
YOUNG LORDS O R G A N I Z A T I O N
�I Ull IT I U 1» i- iili Ultllir. I i u n
J. I
CHA-CHA JIMENEZ
DEFENCE COMMITTEE
P.O. BOX 3 3 8 2
MERCHANDISE MART S T A .
CHICAGO , ILL.
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�PLATFORM: SELF DETERMINATION FOR LATINOS
AND ALL POOR AND OPPRESSED PEOPLE OF THE WORLD
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.1. We .want Independence and s e l f - d e t e n n l nation
f:..- ^.f o r the Peopl e_ ; of ^Aztl an;and. Puerto
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2. We want an end .to al 1 Ilmperi a l l s t wars—
economic. a n ^ m u i t a r y . . ; ^
* We want an end ; t o the' mercenary": nature ofmQStffiiF
the U.S. m i l i t a r y system ^nd'an end t o o p p r e s s l ^ ^ ;
o f Latinos and o t h e r poor and oppressed people.o||n
by threats o f Imprisonment o r by economicalTy ^ ^ ^ J .'
- V . depriving them o f t h e i r b a s i c needs then f o r c i n g ^ ?
them t o volunteer o r allowing thera t o be
: / I n t o unjust, imperialist: w i r s . . ^
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... : . 4 . . We want e q u a l i t y f o r the s e x e s .
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5 . W e want an end t o the i n n e r - c t t y removal^o^^v
- l a t i n o s and o t h e r poor and oppressed p e o p l e ; - W e 9 "
want Latinos and a l l poor and oppressed people t o \
control the housing t o be b u i l t 1n t h e i r r e s p e c t i v e conmunltles so that they can be sure 1t 1 s w
f i t f o r human beings and economically reasonable. '
We a l s o want a l l e x i s t i n g housing brought up t o .
comply with the codes.
6. We want a guaranteed Income and f u l l emoloyment f o r Latinos and a l l poor and oppressed
people.
7 . We want b1-!1ngual education f o r Latinos.
An education t h a t teaches Latinos and a l l poor
and oppressed people the true h i s t o r y o f t h e i r
past -»d exposes the true nature o f t h i s decadcnt
,1ety.
(continued on bojdc cower)
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�8. We want an end to the robbing o f Latinos and
f l a i l poor and oppressed people by GREEDY YANQUI
» BUSINESSMEN 1n the Latino cowminlty.
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® 9 ^ ; ^ M w a n t : ; a n i e n d - t o the enormous drug problem m
^ c a u s e d by ;th1 s ^ e w d e n t ^ s o c i e t y
*ant t h ^
W d n i g ; - pushers £ithe|r1 ch perpetrators o f t h i s
I ^ s6c1etyi ; arrested >nd t r i e d by t h e l r y l c t l m s ^ H e : '
t ^ w a n t a l l those now In j a l l f o r crimes r e l a t e d ' ^ o
to drugs discharged t o coemmlty-control 1 ed rehabX ? , n i t a t 1 o n centers and provided with good and ^ ^
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e f f l d e n t m e d l c a U c a r e . We want research begun v
r 1nmed1 ately so t h a t the use o f methadone
heroin addicts can be discontinued; ' ••''•V'^. f - P ? .
#'10.
We want the same good and e f f i c i e n t health H:
I care that 1s given to the rich t o be given t o '
Latinos and other poor and oppressed p e o p l e .
We want 1t to be f r e e t o Latinos and a l l poor
n and oppressed people. HEALTH CARE IS A HUMAN
I RIGHT.
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11. We want an end to the brutal1zat1on and
cold-blooded murder o f Latinos and a l l poor and
oppressed people by Yanqul p o l i c e 1n t h i s country.
We want p o l i c e 1n Latino convnunltles t o be , ' ...
Latinos and under the control o f the Latino
comnunlty.
12. We want a l l Latinos released from f e d e r a l ,
s t a t e , county, and c i t y j a i l s , because they have
not had f a i r t r i a l s nor have been t r i e d by a
jury o f their peers as defined by the U.S. Cons t i t u t i o n . They have been t r i e d by Yanqul courts
and jurors who have no basic understanding o f
Latinos nor o f the conditions to which Latinos
are subjected.
Cha Cha Jimenez, General Secretary
Young Lords Organization
Cook County J a l l
December 31, 1972
�:ktrcdj:':in
Cha Cha's story shows the 'lenctht to which
the rich who run this country will qc to keep
Door people and Latinos down. Born ir, Puerto
R1co and raised 1n a U.S. slum, Che Cha 1s only
a l i t t l e d i f f e r e n t from other Puerto Rlcans;
that 1s, he has already spent ten years of his
l i f e 1n court and 1n j a i l f o r rebelling against
tne system. Those near him 1n his teen-age years
would ask i f he had been anything more than a drug
addict and i gang member. But what 1s a gang but
a chjup of younc people—products of the ghetto
in r e b e l l i o n — d i r e c t i n c their H o s t i l i t i e s toward
rther poo- v i c t i m Instead of their oppressors.
Drun addiction is only ar extension of the gang.
Altiiouah ccrfused fo** many years as to who
thr oppressor was, Cha Cha used "his time 1n
tc think. He l e f t j a i l with a vague conception
of nr. oppressor— a conception he sharpened as he
experienced continued abuse. He saw that his
problems were not unique but common among the
p o o r , e s p e c i a l l y among Latinos. He reorganised
the dissolving s t r e e t gang—then on the verge o f
f a l l i n g into drugs—and turned 1t into a p o l i t i c a l organization f i g h t i n g f o r the s e l f - d e t e r mination o f Latinos and other poor and oppressed
peoples.
The Young Lords Organization was concerned
with the issues o f welfare, health, day care, and
p o l i c e b r u t a l i t y . I t also dealt with the
questions of Puerto Pvicar. Independence and urbar.
renewal. These were the issues which brought
repression from the oppressor. Mayor Daley and
his "Maquina Demoeratica," who had dominated the
Latino vote ever since we can remember, could not
tolerate a Latino organization opposed to their
scheme f o r driving the poor out of their neighborhoods so that suburbanites could return to
the inner
Daley drove the Latinos froir,
the areas r:
^curled" by the Carl Sandburg Village
and the b: • <tv" of . " H i n d s . Wher, ht promised
then relocc'w * and decent housinc, h€ swindled
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�them. He did the same thing to the Lincoln Park
conmunity. But Cha Cha, the Young Lords, the
Latinos and the poor of Lincoln Park who had been
driven out of t h e i r homes too many times saw
through Daley's demagoguery and p r o t e s t e d .
This
Daley could not t o l e r a t e . A deluge of indictments
poured out o f S t a t e ' s Attorney Hanrahan's
o f f i c e to Lincoln Park residents and Young
Lords. The Young Lords leaders g o t f o u r and
f i v e cases each—they were charged with e v e r y thing from l e a f l e t t i n g too c l o s e to a school
to mob action. Cha Cha alone got eighteen
cases dumped on him. He was given a year f o r
taking $ 23 worth o f lumber. He has now won
thirteen cases. He s t m has f o u r cases
pending.
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What were the crimes committed by the poor
and Latinos of Lincoln Park 1n 1969 and 1970?
Demanding self-determination 1n a democratic
society? What was so d i a b o l i c a l about a fonner
s t r e e t gang and I t s leader trying to serve t h e i r
people? Why was the news media used to slander
them? As long as s t r e e t gangs k i l l and b r u t a l i z e
their own people they are Ignored and sometimes
even aided by the oppressor, but when they attack
the r o o t of "the problem, the creators of the
ghettos, the actual criminals o f t h i s s o c i e t y — t h e
oppressors—will u t i l i z e every means in t h e i r
power—the courts, the p o l i c e , the S t a t e ' s
Attorney's o f f i c e , e t c . — t o suppress them.
The only crime that Cha Cha committed has
been to wage a struggle f o r self-determination
and to refuse to humble himself before the
oppressor. For t h i s , he is new in j a i l . As
Cha Cha himself said a f t e r the Young Lord Manuel
Ramos was murdered in cold blood by an o f f - d u t y
policeman:
They can
They can
They can
But" they
j a i l us;
brutalize us;
even k i l l us—
c a n ' t stor> us!
�CHA CHA JIMENEZ
Jose (Cha Cha) Jimenez was born or, August 8 , v
1948' in an apartment 1n "El Mi 11 on,
a slum of
Caguas, Puerto R1co. His parents came from a
rural area. The youngest o f 15 children, his
mother Eugenia had been raised 1n a convent because her' father was bl1nd and there was no one
to take care of her. At the age o f 16, she l e f t
the convent to marry Cha Cha's father Antonio.
In her pregnancy, she went to Caguas to be near
a doctor. 'Antonio had already l e f t to find a job
1p the United States; he was in a migrant camp
near Boston when Cha Cha was born.
Cha Cha's
older s i s t e r died of pneumonia shortly a f t e r his
birth leaving him the only male and eventually
the oldest of four children.
When Cha Cha was two years o l d , Antonio had
earned enough money to send f o r him and his mother.
They lived near Boston f o r a year, then moved to
Chicago with Cha Cha's new-born s i s t e r . There
they became tenants 1n a hotel which had been converted into r a t - and roach-infested apartments.
Known as the Water Hotel, 1t was on the corners
of Superior and La Salle streets on the near-north
side in the old Clark Street area. There, the
family lived near r e l a t i v e s and friends who had
l e f t Puerto Rico f o r similar reasons.
In the l a t e f o r t i e s and early f i f t i e s , migration of Puerto Rlcans to U.S. c i t i e s skyrocketed
from an average of 10,000 peonle a year to 50,000.
They came looking f o r jobs to establish some
savings with the hope of eventually returning to
their homeland. In Chicago, two centers of the
Puerto Rican community grew up—an area around
Madison Avenue from Ashland to Kedzie and the
neighborhood where Cha Cha lived from Ohio to North
Avenue with Clark Street as i t s nucleus. Among
Puerto Ricans these "barrios" were corrmonlv
called "Ls. Madison* and "La Clark." "La Madison"
i
�"<2c been an established r e s i d e n t i a l area with twoana three-story apartment houses.
I t had a sense
c f ccnm/nity with Latino b u s i n e s s e s , t h e a t e r s ,
and agencies. "La Clark" was d i f f e r e n t . Long
before the Puerto Ricans moved t h e r e , 1t had been
an area under syndicate c o n t r o l .
"Los chinos"
from "La Clark" had a firm g r i p on " l a b o l i t a "
(the numbers game); there was a l o t o f gambling,
drugs, p r o s t i t u t i o n , and homosexuality, e t c . .
"La Clark" had "mixed h o u s i n g " - - i f you could
call i t that. Although many Puerto Ricans lived
1n the Cabrini p r o j e c t s , most o f "La Clark" was made
up of dilapidated hotels bandaged and divided into
apartments and single rooms. In renting these
buildings, i t seemed as 1f the landlords were
trying to coin the l a s t b i t of p r o f i t from t h e i r
Puerto R1can tenants.
Cha Cha's family lived 1n the Water Hotel f o r
a couple of years until i t was f i n a l l y condemned
and torn down. Drifting northward two or three
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blocks at a time, by 1956 the family had reached
1Q
the boundary of "La Clark." In a t o t a l o f s i x
\J
y e a r s , they hadl^been-fo-rced 'to move nine t i m e s all because ofmrban^enewalX
I t never dawned
-is OO l . on them that trfe c1^~aeTTBerately intended to
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a> * — ; push the Puerto Ricans out o f t h e i r homes. The
Puerto Ricans thought the buildings would e i t h e r
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a> be renovated or leveled and then reconstructed
O K W) so that they would be able to return to l i v e in
them. The men who ran the c i t y had a d i f f e r e n t
O 5®
plan. Today the expensive areas o f the Carl
- o sL
Sandburg Village and "Old Town" have replaced
>
^
ft P most of "La Clark" and Puerto Ricans are a r a r i t y .
To make way f o r the r i c h , the Puerto Ricans from
"La Clark" were pushed into the adjacent
community of Lincoln Park or into the new
barrio o f "La Division." People from "La
Madison" poured in there t o o . The other
pockets of the Puerto Rican community in
Chicago—"La Blue Island," "La 63," "La
Sheridan," etc.—grew un l a t e r .
h®
!
**
o
i y
-eJ
�Che. Che. had alreacy attendee Mo'iv Name
Cathedral, St. Joseph and Frank!ir, schools when
he entered Newberry Elementary School 1n Lincoln
Park 1n the t h i r d grade. At f i r s t he had a
d i f f i c u l t time adapting. Lincoln Park was a
conwunlty of poor white Americans—Irish, I t a l tans7~peopTe from Appalachia, e t c . . ChaTChars
tMli-y~was~one of the f i r s t Puerto RicajPfamITtrrTnJIhe neighborhood. Kids at scRooTTwould
call "IfvT"few Puerto R1can children "spies" and
beat them on t h e i r way home. Cha Cha came home
injured many times. He told his Darents he had
"tripped and f a l l e n , " but they understood otherwise because they had seen a f i g h t 1n the a l l e y
next to their home. The s c u f f l e began among
gypsy youth, whose families shared the building
with the Puerto Ricans. All the residents o f
the apartment house got a panoramic view from
t h e i r windows as 1f they were watching from separate booths in an outdoor stadium. The youths
were belting a young gypsy who was Cha Cha's
f r i e n d . When Cha Cha raced outside to help him,
the gypsy youths converged on him. When Puerto
Rican youths poured out of the building, the f i g h t
s h i f t e d to a b a t t l e between gypsies and Puerto
Ricans. Even Cha Cha's friend sided with his
kinsfolk. The soectators began casting t h e i r
b a l l o t s arguing with each other, screaming and
cheering v i c t o r y f o r t h e i r s i d e . After l e t t i n g
the f i g h t go on f o r some time, the adults i n t e r vened and brought i t to a halt.
As more Puerto Ricans from "La Clark" moved
into Lincoln Park, Cha Cha's family followed the
current a block upward as I r i s h , I t a l i a n s , and
Appalachian whites moved further north. Cha Cha's
father began guzzling liquor (two of his uncles
had already died from l i v e r infections caused by
a l c o h o l ) . To get her husband to stop drinking,
dona Eugenia made a "promesa" to dress 1n black f o r
a year. She persuaded her husband to j o i n the
Knights of Saint John, a Latinc organization
r
�f c m e d by the Catholic archdiocese of Chicago.
Through the aid of a p r i e s t assigned to L a t i n o s ,
she organized Spanish catechism classes in her
home f o r Puerto Rican children 1n the area.
Meanwhile, Cha Cha was getting Into t r o u b l e according to the neighbors who t r i e d to keep
their sons away from him. Cha Cha c o u l d n ' t understand the d i f f e r e n c e between his actions and those
of the neighbor kids nor did he know why people
were t a l k i n g . In f a c t , a recording at the time
with the t i t l e "Everybody E l s e ' s Son's a Troublemaker But Mine," would have been appropriate.
At his mother's request, the p r i e s t talked
with Cha Cha and met with him a l l summer. Soon
he became an altar boy at the Spanish mass 1n
Saint Michael's church. His mother arranged with
the p r i e s t to enroll him in a Catholic school —
« p j a i n t T e r e s a ' s . Though a poor f a m i l y , they did
§ h o t have to worry about t u i t i o n which the p r i e s t
^had taken care o f . Most of the classrooms 1n
- g O e s t . Teresa's were f i l l e d with Germans, Polish
X - § i J>®ople and I t a l l t a n s . There were only a few
O 8 bblacks and Latinos 1n the s c h o o l . In Cha Cha's
—4 cf. sslxth grade c l a s s , there were none.
O?, ®
O w 2.
When he entered St. T e r e s a ' s , he had been
O § C o m p l e t e l y transformed from nrischievousness to
3S ^ cplety. His teacher—a nun—took special i n t e r e s t
y rfn him and became his f r i e n d . He put his mind to
J5 sMs studies and no longer spent much time with his
ST.'Neighborhood f r i e n d s , who people thought had been
£ the cause of his mischief. Before and a f t e r class
w
and on weekends, he helped around the church and
school—shoveling snow, sweeping, mopping and
waxing the f l o o r s , and dusting the pews in the
chapel. In the three years he attended St.
T e r e s a ' s , he was always f i r s t o r second in the
number o f candy sales made to raise funds to build
a new church. Continuing as f *ltar boy at St.
T e r e s a ' s , he else sane ir
. i r . Hear comple-
L
�ticn of her "promesa," dona Eugenia had set up an
altar in their home. Latino neiahbords o f t e n asked
her to lead in the r e c i t a t i o n of a rosary; i t became part of the d a i l y schedule at home. I t was
not surprising then that at the age of eleven,
Cha Cha had made up his mind about his f u t u r e .
After graduating from eighth grade, he wanted to
enter a seminary to prepare f o r the priesthood.
Meanwhile, although there were s t i l l only a
few Puerto R1can businesses in Lincoln Park, the
influx of Puerto Ricans continued. I t was the
early 1960 1 s and s t r e e t gangs were spreading over
the c i t y . There were a few gangs 1n Lincoln Park
among the European m i n o r i t i e s , but none as yet
among the Puerto Ricans. When Puerto R1can newcomers were detected in non-Puerto R1can sections
of Lincoln Park, they were beaten mercilessly
like someone was beating dust out o f a carpet.
From time to time, the Puerto Rican grapevine r e ported incidents l i k e t h i s . St. Teresa's had no
gangs although there were a couple o f gang members
in the s c h o o l , which was l o c a t t d in the t e r r i t o r y
of a European gang.
In hopes o f preparing f o r the priesthood, Cha
Cha stuck to his s t u d i e s .
In the spring—when the
gangs surfaced—he became inadvertently involved
in an incident. A group of Puerto Ricans who
l a t e r the same year would form the Black Eagles,
the Paragons or the Young Lords, retaliated against
some of the European gang members. Because some
of their own had been hurt, the European gang was
out f o r revenge. Although Cha Cha had riot been
involved in the i n c i d e n t , some of the gang members
ranembered him from Newberry. One day as he was
walklnc home from s c h o o l , they caught sight of him
from across the s t r e e t and yelled his name. He
kept walkina t.ni pretended not to hear. They
veiled aaai•
"his time he looked at them, turned
the come;
"an down the Mock. The gang
ris shed a f i e -r cha:" : nc M r :nt * 1 he net into
�the Puerto Rican s e c t i o n . To avoid f u r t h e r beati n g s , Cha Cha found a new route home from s c h o o l .
More f i g h t s accurred between Puerto Rlcans
and European gangs. The Puerto Rlcans—who by
now had grown 1n number—began to organize themselves in s e l f - d e f e n s e . Orlando D a v l l a , founder
o f the Young Lords, asked Cha Cha to a meeting.
He had met Cha Cha at his mother's catechism
c l a s s . Cha Cha decided to attend the meeting
along with nine other youths. At t h i s meeting,
the Young Lords were formed. The Young Lords
remained a nominal organization f o r Cha Cha: he
was not an active p a r t i c i p a n t . Most o f the
b a t t l e s were fought at the p u b l i c school while
he was at the Catholic school. Further, at this
time, gang organization in Lincoln Park was j u s t
beginning.
During the summer vacation, Cha Cha was in a
few scattered f i g h t s at the beach, but when classes
resumed, he s p l i t from the gang to readapt h1mg1
s e l f to a d i f f e r e n t environment. He returned to
» ^
M s s t u d i e s . Now he was 1n his eighth year—th«
g. year o f d e c i s i o n . He sent his a p p l i c a t i o n t o a
^
Redemptorlst seminary 1n Wisconsin f o r which he
TJ Q
needed l e t t e r s of reconrnendation from the p r l n c i anc* pastor of St. Teresa's.
X tf r
Although Cha Cha
O o 3 had behaved himself all semester, toward the end
tf. 4* o f the term he and another classmate were caught
O a | throwing eggs at a bus in which—they found out
O 4/5
later— the pastor was r i d i n g . They were suspended
O S * from school f o r a few days. Instead o f a l e t t e r
C 0 * recommendation, the pastor asked the seminary
^ > Sfto deny entry to Cha Cha. The seminary wrote him
o <5to try again the following year. This would be
. H T . ^ d i f f i c u l t . Because Cha Cha could not a f f o r d
^
t u i t i o n to a Catholic high s c h o o l , he would be
w
going to Waller, the public s c h o o l , which would
make 1t less easy f o r h1rr to be accepted at the
seminary the following year. Further, Waller
was the school which the Young Lords and other
neighborhood gangs would attend.
t
�Like his other classmates, Cna Cha t r i e d to
find people from St, Teresa's who would be going
to his new s c h o o l . Although Waller was the nearest high s c h o o l , only one other classmate planned
to go so Cha Cha d i d n ' t find many a s s o c i a t e s .
Soon a f t e r graduation, some of his classmates'
families organized a graduation party to which
neither Cha Cha nor his family were 1nvited—an
example of ant1-Puerto R1can f e e l i n g which
he had experienced c o n s i s t e n t l y at St. T e r e s a ' s .
He found out about the party while walking down
the s t r e e t with two other Young Lords dressed
t h e i r purple and black sweaters. Two o f his
f e l l o w classmates stepped out of the s t o r e f r o n t
where the party was being held. When they saw
Cha Cha they asked him why he wasn't at the
party.
"I j u s t d i d n ' t f e e l 11ke going," he
r e p l i e d . The Young Lords were anxious to move
Into the dance, but Cha Cha persuaded them not
to.
By now, Lincoln Park was flooded with Puerto
Ricans and other Latinos. By sunnier, gang f i g h t s
were routine. When e i t h e r side 1n the c o n f l i c t
had I t s members roughed up, both sides would come
together quickly l i k e s o l d i e r s 1n a f o r t a f t e r the
sounding of r e v e i l l e — w i t h their weapons and ready
f o r b a t t l e . However, gang f i g h t i n g was not the
only wave of action the gangs created 1n Lincoln
Park. The Puerto Ricans hung out on the playgrounds in their i d l e time. Cliques of twos and
threes would disappear f o r hours at a time to
get drugs, s n i f f g l u e , smoke marijuana, shoot
heroin, burglarize homes, s t r i p c a r s , snatch
purses, and s t i c k up people. After awhile, the
Young Lords—the youngest of four or f i v e Latino
groups on the playground—got Into t h i s . Cha Cha's
Catholic education and previous environment did
not help him here.
I f he wanted to be accepted
by the crowd—or as i t was called then, i f he
wanted to be considered a "regular"—he had to
change his ways. He did so and a f t e r awhile he
a
t
�.•found himself in j a i l .
In f a c t , by the time
classes began at Waller, he had been arrested
many times, had spent nearly two of his summer
months in a juvenile home, and had been placed on
a y e a r ' s probation.
c/i
H
P. O
%
Cha Cha lasted only two months at Waller,
Soon a f t e r r e g i s t e r i n g , he was arrested and spent
two months in j a i l before going t o t r i a l .
When his
case f i n a l l y came up, the judge decided to deport
him to Puerto Rico f o r a year. Discharged from
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j u v e n i l e home, he was put on a plane f o r Puerto
R1co. For the eight months he stayed 1n Puerto
R i c o , he kept out o f trouble with the p o l i c e .
When he returned to Chicago, he t r i e d to enroll 1n
school but was turned down. A week l a t e r , he was
back in j a i l . When the judge asked him how long
i t had been since he had been 1n p r i s o n , he t o l d
him eight months. So he put Cha Cha on probation
f o r another year.
5".
|
By the time Cha Gha was seventeen, he had
developed from a "regular" to the president o f the
Young Lords—not f o r being tough but f o r being
••trusted" a f t e r so many trips to j a i l .
I t was
1964 and gang fighting had stopped some. Cha Cha
and most of the other members concentrated more on
s o c i a l a c t i v i t i e s and their g i r l f r i e n d s , but the
p o l i c e wouldn't leave him alone. They caused
trouble f o r him and his g i r l f r i e n d .
Because they
eloped and because Cha Cha had i long p o l i c e r e cord, his g i r l f r i e n d ' s probation o f f i c e r t r i e d to
keep the couple apart by forcing her family to
leave the community. It was d i f f i c u l t f o r Cha Che
tc accept t h i s . He had been discharged on parole
a f t e r two more months in the j u v e n i l e home and now
her probation o f f i c e r and his Drobatlon o f f i c e r had
taken i t UDon themselves to keep the couple apart.
Cha Cha and his g i r l f r i e n d managed to meet s e c r e t l y
f o r some months, but a f t e r awhile the g i r l found
another romance in her new school. The authori t i e s ' scheme worked.
the
10
�When Cha C'na's friends told h i * , he l e t i t
ride at f i r s t , but one day they raised the subject
again while drinking wine. Cha Cha and three otheYoung Lords took the El to the neighborhood of
the g i r l ' s school where they found her with her
boyfriend in a small restaurant. One of the Lords
had given his k n i f e to Cha Cha because they thought
Cha Cha too t i p s y to f i g h t and they d i d n ' t want to
stab the youth. When the Lord threw the f i r s t
punch, the boy started to run. He ran straight
1ntc Cha Cha who had been standing near the door.
Cha Cha reached into his pocket, pulled out the
blade, and stabbed the boy three times. The boy
rescued the other side of the street when a gathering from the school stormed Cha Cha and the Lords.
When Cha Cha lunged at the group with a cleaver,
they took o f f . The g i r l also pushed her way into
the f i g h t . Cha Cha belted her and stabbed the
boy two more times, then took o f f v/ith the Lords
i
leaving the youth stretched out on the s t r e e t with
f i v e knife wounds. Chasing the Lords, a group
from the"school cornered them 1n a drugstore
until the p o l i c e came and arrested them. When
^
they went to c o u r t , Cha Cha took the blame and
got six months in a state penal farm. The other
Q
Lords were discharged.
—j
O
When Cha Cha got out in mid-1966, the street O
gang had broken up. Most of the* were in the
O
s e r v i c e , in j a i l , or married. A few stayed t o gether on. the corner but there were no mo^e
^
meetings and nc gang structure. Besides the
Lords on the c o r n e r , there were others who came
just to l o i t e r and get high. If there were any
f i g h t s , they were with this combined group rather
than with the Young Lords street gang, ' h i s s i t uation was pure gold f o r Cha Cha because he had
nc desire tc be part of e gang.
When he get out of the nena1 fan:., he founc
job Li t £tocl:b©v ir t nearby *acter\ rr.akinc
3 * . 6 : ?.r h * j r .
He faunc i nev p-".'>*, enc who*
11
li
�he be.*;an to cake s e r i o u s l y . Problems i>-cse when the
g i r l ' s family found out <?bout C'na Cha's o o l i t e
record. Without t e l l inn
, they l e f t ths rommunity. This time, however, Cha Cha managed to
keen in touch with M s g i r l f r i e n d .
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All was going well until he got i n t o an argument with a neighbor. Because he had spent so much
time 1n prison, Cha Cha d i d n ' t knew his neighbors.
I t was a Friday evening and Cha Cha had come home
from work with Manuel Ramos. They had stopped to
have a few beers before reaching Cha Cha's home.
They planned to wait f o r each other while they
changed clothes and washed up. They were going to
a dance that night. While Cha Cha washed up,
Manuel decided to leave because he d i d n ' t want
doffa Eugenia to see him 1n a s l i g h t l y drunken
s t a t e . He l e f t a message to t e l l Cha Cha he'd see
him l a t e r at the dance. When Cha Cha g o t the
message, he walked down the block t o catch up with
Manuel to t e l l him his mother wouldn't mind, but
He couldn't find him so he turned around and
walked back toward home. From a distance next
door to his house he saw an o l d e r man y e l l i n g at
a young g i r l , who took o f f toward the backyard.
A l i t t l e drunk, Chi Che mistook the g i r l f o r
his s i s t e r . Not knowing that Cha Cha was his
next-door neighbor, the man thought Cha Cha was
provoking him. He t o l d Cha Cha to "mind his own
business and go to h e l l . " Anytime he wanted t o ,
he said, he would y e l l at the c l r l .
He f e l t
p e r f e c t l y in the right since the o i r l was his
own daughter, but Cha Cha took a swing at him
and his son, who had come down to help his
father.
Dofia Eugenia came out to explain that Chi Cha
was her son, he was a l i t t l e drunk, e t c . .
She told
Cha Cha that his s i s t e r had beer, 1n the house all
alone. Apologizing to the mar
' his son, Che Chi
shook hands with theft; and s v : - '
toward home., f t
that p o i n t , i Dclice ca*- drew u
The o f f i c e r c-de-ed
II
�Chs Ch= to get into the car. Ir borken English,
dofie Eugenie, tried to t e 1 . the policeman that the
problem had been settled. ''No trouble, no trouble,'
she repeated. While she v/as t e l l i n g Cha Cha to
go upstairs, the policeman kept pressing him to
get into the car. Cha Cha told his mother not to
worry—he would explain to the policeman and
everything would be all right.
Cha Cha never got a chance to explain. The
policeman—angry because Cha Cha had not come right
away—grabbed him by the c o l l a r . When Cha Cha
reacted by grabbing him by the c o l l a r , another
policeman came up from the rear and cracked his
club over Cha Cha's head. Cha Cha lay unconscious
on the pavement. The policeman knelt down on his
arms and began banging his head on the sidewalk.
Tn tears hi? mother screamed, "My son, my son!
Por favor, no hit my son!" She and one of her
daughters tried to pull the policeman o f f Cha
Cha; another s i s t e r put her hands under his head
as the policeman banged 1t on the concrete. The
third s i s t e r grabbed the policeman's club and
hurled 1t across the street. The neighbors—
including the man and his son whom Cha Cha had h i t screamed at the p o l i c e to stop when doPla Eugenia
nicked up a b o t t l e and threw 1t at the o f f i c e ^ .
Blood streamed from his mouth along with two of
his teeth.
When he came t c , Cha Cha was in a police
wagon with his mother, who was praying over a
rosary. Though not arrested, his three sisters
had asked to go tc the d o ! i c e station with their
brother end mother. Cha Che did not know his
mother had been arrested. When he found out he was
so shocked and Infuriated that he began to fight
with the policeman again. This time at least
ten policemen beet him black and blue. He was
lucky tc be e l l v e the next day when he appeared
in court. His face was swollen; his neck showed
signs of internal fc'e^-'nc where they had choked
�him; h& was 1 imping, or. one leg whore they had
kicked him. The neignbor who had argued with him
brought no charges against him. The only charges
brought against him were those of the policeman.
Cha Cha was accused o f knocking out his tooth—
or aggravated battery.
Cha Cha's mother was charged with d i s o r d e r l y
conduct, but her case was l a t e r dismissed.
After
the dismissal of her c a s e , Cha Cha eloned with
his g i r l f r i e n d and l e f t the c i t y because he
knew that he would l o s e his case 1n c o u r t . The
courts would uniformly accept the policeman's word.
Because of his previous p o l i c e r e c o r d , whatever
he said in court would be of no value.
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A f t e r about a year, he and his underaged wife
decided to return to Chicago. She was pregnant.
They both f e l t they could c l e a r up t h e i r d i f f e r ences with her mother while Cha Cha wanted to
c l e a r up his case with the courts b e f o r e the baby
was born. When he went to the p o l i c e s t a t i o n ,
the p o l i c e could find no warrants f o r his previous
a r r e s t so they told him to f o r g e t about the case.
Q
T h e a i r l ' s mother, however, did not want a "criminal"
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f o r a son-in-law so she v i s i t e d the court and had
5Cha Cha j a i l e d . She got a court order preventing
h 1 m f r o m v i s i t i n g his wife or
his new-born c h i l d ,
g.
Cha Cha went to the penal settlement again. This
<
time when he returned he was r e a l l y depressed. He
g
began shooting heroin. Daily until he was addicted
and l a t e r f o r what seemed a milennium, he kept
f-4
taking narcotics. He was in and out of j a i l until
5 . in 1968 while in prison he made up his mind to
ST
beat the drug problem.
At the time he was in maximum s e c u r i t y because
of a rumor that he and twelve other Latinos were
trying to escape from the House of Correction.
He had not read a book in i t s e n t i r e t y since the
eighth grade, but in his i s o l a t e d c e l l , there was
nothing else to do. At f i r s t he started w J th
�r e l i g i o u s books—Seven Story Mountain by Thomas
Merton. He began to think about his l i f e . He
pot into r e l i g i o n . He wanted to go tc church
service but he c o u l d n ' t get out of his cell
except to shower once a week. S t i l l he began
mental invocation and regretted the mistakes of
the past. He asked to see the p r i e s t and on his
knees 1n his c e l l through the bars he confessed
his s i n s .
He read every book he could get his hands
on. When a cousin who was also 1n j a i l told a
Muslim trustee that Cha Che was Puerto Rican, the
Muslim began to supply Cha Cha with p o l i t i c a l books.
He could not see Cha Cha as a Puerto Rican at f i r s t
because of -his l i g h t complexion. Jokingly, he
would say, "But hs looks l i k e the devil—the
beast." Then they would all break out in laughter.
While Cha Cha was in maximum security reading
about Martin Luther King J r . and other p o l i t i c a l
leaders, protests were flooding the nation. It was
1968. Martin Luther King J r . had j u s t been murdered
and r i o t e r s were streaming Into the j a i l s . He saw
them as they passed the maximum security c e l l s .
Along with the r i o t e r s he watched Mexican Immigrants
being brought 1n—100 and 200 at a time—for having
no passport papers. Cha Cha talked with their: in
Spanish. They t o l d hirr, they had come to this
country to get jobs so they could feed and clothe
t h e i r f a m i l i e s . They had never been arrested until
now when they were picked up at their work places.
They would be flown back to Mexico, but they would
return again to look f o r another j o b . The prison
guards shoved them around because they coule not
speak English. Chi Cha and the other"Puerto Ricans
translated f o r them from their c e l l s and yelled
at the guards f o r harrassing them.
When Cha Che got out of j a i l , he returned to
Lincoln »erk. The druc addicts on the comeo f f e r e d hirr hercir. but he had decided no* that he
Ir
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3
�wanted to help his people. He d i d n ' t want anything
to i n t e r f e r e . He knew this was t h e i r way of
t e l l i n g him they were happy to see him o u t , so he
p o l i t e l y told them he d i d n ' t want drugs. They
weren't surprised: people who g o t out o f j a i l
usually said that at f i r s t — a couple o f weeks
later they were back on drugs.
But Cha Cha was s e r i o u s . He kept on reading
and studying—about Malcolm X, the Massacre o f Ponce,
don Albizu Campos, e t c . . . He found other people in
the community who thought l i k e him. They Invited
him t o urban renewal meetings. The people at the
meetings were all white middle c l a s s peoDle.. There
were no Latinos or other poor. Cha Cha began to
see hov,' with the help o f these white middle c l a s s
people urban renewal plotted to f o r c e the Latinos
and other poor people out o f Lincoln Park. He
O
&
p
£-
was angry, but what could he do? I f he t o l d
his f r i e n d s , would they help? They seemed to
be Interested only 1n drugs and gang f i g h t i n g .
S t i l l he knew some o f them had been f o r c e d out
of "La Clark" before and he knew that only the
people could stop Daley's urban renewal plans,
so he began to talk with them 1n the taverns,
on the corners, and any place he found them.
He put together three o r g a n i z a t i o n s . The
f i r s t , the Concerned Puerto Rican Youth, was
<
co-opted by the YMCA and the same white middle
class people who were pushing Latinos out of Lincoln
Park. Concerned Puerto Rican Youth preferred to
play basketball and b a s e b a l l ; they spent t h e i r
time throwing dances to earr, money f o r more sports a c t i v i t i e s . Cha Cha could not see himself doing
this while his people were being f o r c e d out o f
Lincoln Park so a f t e r quitting them he organized
the Puerto R1car Progressive Movement, which held
classes on Puerto Rican issues. Later the Puerto
Rican Progressive Movement disbanded t c become
Da»*t of the Younc Lords which Cha Cha reorganized.
It wasn't d i f f i c u l t *or the Young Lords tc under-
[6
�stand what Chi Chi was saying aoout urban re/ewtl,
racism, p o l i c e b r u t a l i t y , e t c . . After a l l , they
lived i t . They developed quickly. At f i r s t , Cha
Cha turned his apartment i n t o an o f f i c e and organized c l a s s e s . Later they shared an o f f i c e with
another organization until eventually they occupied
a church, renamed i t People's Church, and turned 1t
into their national headquarters.
The Young Lords held meetings in Lincoln Pari:
on the problems o f housing and urban renewal. From
early morning until late at night they would d l s t r l
bute l e a f l e t s announcing t h e i r meetings until all
Lincoln Park had been covered. In the cold winter
months, poor people would come to People's Church
with their children to t e l l the Young Lords that
the s h e r r i f f ' h a d evicted them from t h e i r homes and
dumped their belongings on the sidewalk. Taking
the family's belongings i n t o the church, the Young
Lords would ransack Lincoln Park looking f o r a
vacated apartment. Because many landlords were
remodeling t o . r a i s e r e n t s , many apartments were
empty then. When the Lords found one they
would move the family i n , v i s i t the landlord, and
pay him the f i r s t month's rent i f the family had
no money. They would t e l l the family to call on
them 1f the s h e r r i f f returned. The s h e r r i f f , who
had b u i l t no bonds with the people of Lincoln
Park, usually took o f f when conmunlty people
gathered.
The Young Lords helped to organize the
Poor People's Coalition of Lincoln Park, an
organization of all races which protested Daley's
urban renewal and fought f o r low income housing.
With 250 poor f a m i l i e s , they seized and occupied
an empty l o t at the corner o f Halsted and Armitage
to protest the construction o f an exclusive tennis
club (membership fee—$1 ,000) where Latino homes
had once s t o o d . In May o f 1969 the Young Lords
and other comnunity grouns confronted HcCormick
Theological Seminary, en i n f l u e n t i a l backs'- c -
II
�urban renewal. Among other demands, they r e quested $601,000 f o r low income housing. When
the administration of the seminary refused the
demands, community people—Latino, b l a c k , and
white—took over the Stone Administration Building
and occupied 1t f o r four days 1n one o f the f i r s t
conmunlty occupations o f I t s kind 1n the country.
They renamed the Stone Administration Building
a f t e r Manuel Ramos, the Young Lord who a few days
before had been shot down in c o l d blood by James
Lamb, a Chicago policeman. Lamb was not on duty
at the time; when four Lords turned him Into the
p o l i c e , the p o l i c e pressed charges against them,
not Lamb. Recognizing that Manuel's murder was
part of a broader movement o f repression 1n the
United States, the Lords immediately organized a
march o f 3,000 people from P e o p l e ' s Park to Division
S t r e e t , the heart o f the Puerto Rican community.
Shouting "Manuel Ramos v1ve en todos r e v o l u c l o n ar1os!"and demanding the a r r e s t o f Lamb, they were
also marching f o r the Independence o f Puerto Rico.
The Lords were the f i r s t to bring the Issue
of Puerto Rican independence t o Chicago. Over
3,000 people took part 1n the w e l l - d i s c i p l i n e d
Albizu Campos march. In a d d i t i o n , the Lords
sponsored cultural f e s t i v a l s f o r the community with
entertainment, f o o d , and c o l d drinks f r e e to a l l .
They were involved in welfare marches to
protest the harrassment o f Latino and other poor
women not receiving t h e i r welfare checks. They
set up a free breakfast pTtgram f o r c h i l d r e n , a
clothing program and a f r e e health c l i n i c f o r
f a m i l i e s . Chapters of the YLC grew up all over %
the country—in New York, New Jersey, C a l i f o r n i a .
They were in the process of setting up a free
day care center and a druc ^ u s t program when
Daley's systematic repress•'
^egar,. Mayor
Daley coulc' buck nc inte*
ce with his tr-bar
�rerusial s(.her..a. Gctti ng funds frfir tf.fe r e d v i '
government, he could no I at*orri to be emo?rr~
ssstid or to frighten the federal o f f i c e r s frcm
HUD (Housing tno Urban Development}, so wrier- the
Latinos and'other people o f Lincoln Far'; under
the leadership o f the Young Lords oecww an obs t a c l e to Daley's plans, he stflrinoned a press
confcronc* tc announce his "War on Gangs." To
carrv out t h i - wsr, he appointed his close
•friend Howard Hanrahan, who followed his orders
w e l l . From the way i t looked as indictments
b i t all Lincoln Park residents objecting to
urKsn renewal f Daley thought all Latinos *nd poor
people in the area were gang members.
The repression beosn a few months before
Manuel's r.iuraer--in January 1569 when Cha Cha
was nicked up and charged with two old warrants
from 1967. He was standing on a comer explaining urban renewal to a crowd o f young people
when a car with two policemen from the Gang Int e l l i g e n c e Unit drew up and ordered him to get
in. "Am I under arrest?" he asked. "No, we just
want to talk with you," they r e p l i e d . "Well,
I d o n ' t want to talk with you," Cha Cha
answered. The two policemen jumped out of
the car and told Cha Cha he'd "better get i n . "
The young people began to taunt the policemen
t e l l i n g them Cha Cha d i d n ' t have to get in the
car. Cha Cha t o l d them to cool i t and got into
the car. The young people then rounded up
community people and lawyers and marched tc the
Dolice s t a t i o n .
At the s t a t i o n , the p o l i c e keDt Cha Cha
unstairs f o r two hours while the o f f i c e r s combed
their f i l e s f o r warrants. Cha Cha was 1»to
what seemed to be a f r i e n d l y argument with the
p o l i c e about Balev's urban renewal. The o f f i c e r s
upstairs were all Dcllce who had arrested
Cha Cha 1n his gar.c
- » r s — l i k e Commander
Brasch, who is n-. '
indictment for exH
�t o r t i o n . In the conversation, they brought up
Cha Cha's p o l i c e record and advised him to
" o u i t while the quitting was good." Cha Cha
replied that he d i d n ' t see anything i l l e q a l in
what he was doing. He had been 1n j a i l b e f o r e
f o r stealing from his p e o p l e . If he had to go
to j a i l now f o r helping them, he d i d n ' t mind.
The p o l i c e downstairs f i n a l l y came up with two
old warrants f o r Cha Cha's arrest—from the
aggravated battery case in f r o n t of his parents'
home. Cha Cha t o l d them the p o l i c e hadn't been
able to find these warrants when he turned himself
1n f o r them long b e f o r e , but the p o l i c e were bored
with talking to him and stuck him in the l o c k - u p .
Cfl
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The Puerto Rican young people raised the
bond money which got Cha Cha o u t , but the r e pression continued. A week or so l a t e r , Cha Cha
and twelve others were arrested at a welfare
demonstration and charged with "mob a c t i o n . " -The other twelve were l e t o f f : Cha Cha was n o t .
The same day they charged him with another "mob
action" 1n r e l a t i o n to an urban renewal meeting.
Again he was the only one i n d i c t e d . Three times
he was arrested f o r d i s o r d e r l y conduct—a charge
placed on people when nothing e l s e can be found.
He was then accused o f aggravated kidnapping o f
his own c h i l d . The c h i l d was with i t s nether who
had been separated from Cha Cha f o r some time.
I t was his mother-in-law who with the generous
help of the p o l i c e aeoartment had f i l e d the carp l a i n t . The case was sc ridiculous the judge got
mad and mismissed i t the next day.
As the Younc Lords " e r t Peonie's Church f o r .
another welfare demonstration, Cha Cha and eight
or nine others were arrested f o r aggravated
battery against a policeman.
(No oolicemen we^e
taken tc any hospital f o - i n j u r i e s — n c one was
bruised or scratched.
Nc one had been touched.
Ir court, however, oo* 1 cemen
considered J n*t~" ik'e':. Mesnw1*'" 1 s ctner v ounc Lords we'"6
«- r
�netting t r a f f i c t i c k e t s and being cneckec for
i d e n t i f i c a t i o n . The idea was to keep all of then*
o'Jt of the welfare demonstration.
Two policemen told Cha Cha they had two
warrants f o r his f a i l u r e to appear 1n court. Cha
Cha was sure he had not skipped a court date so
he asked i f he could phone his attorney to have
his lawyer sncsk with them. They agreed. They
couldn't dn much e l s e ; a f t e r a l l , when Cha Cha
asked them to show him the v a r r c n t s , they had none.
While Cha Cha was phoning his lawyer, comnunlty
poon'e began to gather. This was enough to prompt
the policemen to make Cha Cha get o f f the phone.
They shoved him 1r,te the car and drove away. The
lawyer went to the station to t e l l them there were
no warrants f o r Cha Cha's missing a court data, so
when the p o l i c e could find no warrants, they
charged him with resisting--arrest.
The arrests and indictments continued through
1969 and early 1970 until they totaled 18. The
p o l i c e tried everything 1n t h e i r power to isolate
Cha Cha from the community. Because he had many
cases against him, he not only had to appear 1n
court three and four times a week, he had to appear
in d i f f e r e n t courts at the same time. When he
arrived l a t e , the court would Issue a warrant. When
lawyers told the court Cha Cha would appear l a t e r ,
the i r r i t a t e d judges invariably answered they
weren't interested in talking to attorneys, they
wanted to see Cha Cha. When all cause for arrest
was exhausted, they started charging him with
possession of marijuana.
It is true that Cha Cha voluntarily pleaded
g u i l t y on petty t h e f t charges o f taking $ 23 worth
of lumber. However, the S t a t e ' s Attorney's o f f i c e
acknowledged that this was the only case Cha Cha
was g u i l t y o f . They placed i t f i r s t on the court
case agenda while shunting and procrastinating
or, the prior cases.
Because Cha Cha had already
Zl
�pleaded guilty he did not think a t r i a l was necessary. However, at the l a s t moment, the S t a t e ' s
Attorney, who "wanted to give Cha Cha all his
legal r i g h t s , " added the charge of burglary t o
the same case which made a t r i a l necessary.
If
Cha Cha were convicted o f burglary, instead o f the
one year sentence, he would get f i v e years f o r
a p i l e o f lumber worth $ 23.
Of those protesting urban renewal in Lincoln
Park, Cha Cha was not the only v i c t i m o f r e p r e s s ion. Because o f his leadership r o l e , he got the
most indictments and i s currently 1n j a i l .
But
many community people were harrassed f o r nothing
more than entering People's Church. The ttRed Squad"
and "Gang Intelligence Unit" photographed the people
from t h e i r cars and l a t e r v i s i t e d them in t h e i r
homes. They stopped and questioned people
wearing buttons distributed by the Young Lords
l i k e the one which read "Tengo Puerto Rico en ml
corazon." (I have Puerto R1co 1n my h e a r t . )
They were arrested at demonstrations protesting w e l f a r e , urban renewal, and p o l i c e b r u t a l i t y . Members
of the Central Conmlttee of the Lords got f o u r and
f i v e indictments apiece. Along with Cha Cha, other
Young Lords and conmunlty people were forced i n t o
hiding to avoid Hanrahan's and Daley's repression.
Although the indicments were supposedly
related to Daley's War on Gangs, the Young Lords
Organization proved to the p o o r — e s p e c i a l l y
Latinos—that they were not a s t r e e t gang as
their enemies portrayed them. They were not in •
any gang f i g h t s . Instead of harming the people,
they served"them. Cha Che Jimenez was no gang
leader. He was the leader o f a bonafide Latino
pol 1 ti cal organi zation—struggl ing f o r sel f determination within the confines of the United
States.
LL
�HISTORY
Charges/Court
OF
CHA
Bond
1. Petty Theft (Lumber Case)
$20,000
Judge Rom1t1
None
2. Disorderly Conduct
it
Judge Wachowski
$30,000
3. Disorderly Conduct
Judge Mooney
4. Disorderly Conduct
$5,000
5. Aggravated Battery
Judge Dunne
6. Aggravated Kidnapping
$25,000
Judge Epton Br. 43
7. Aggravated Battery
8. Resisting Arrest
$1,000
Br. 46
9. Curfew Violation
10. Unlawful Use of WeaDon
L3
$500
$10,000
�CHA'S
CASES
Maximum Sentence
Won/Lost
1 Year
Lost
$500 Fine
Won
$500 Fine
Won
$500 Fine
w°n
1-5 Years
2 Years to Life
1-5 Years
1 Year
$500 Fine
$500 Fine
and/or 1 Yea-
Won
w°n
Won
Won
w°n
Won
�Charges/Court
Bond
11. Unlawful Use o f Weapon
$20,000
12. Possession o f Marijuana
$10,000
Judge Olson
13. Possession of Marijuana
$1,000
Judge Surla
14. Resisting Arrest
15. Mob Action Etc.
$20,000
Judge Rom1t1
16. Mob Action
$5,000
Judge Romi t1
17. Aggravated Battery
$5,000
Judge Romitl
18. Jumping Bail (3 Counts)
$30,000
Judge Rorriti
Total
$60,000
t&. hntndmtnt ol
Er.c.tulvt
bcuZ thiCS. not be Ke/tiU/ied, not
limit oat puniiK
2.S
�Maximum Sentence
Won/Lost
$500 Fine
Won
and/or 1 Year
90 Days t o 1 Year
Won
90 Days t o 1 Year
Won
1 t o 5 Years
Won
1 to 5 Years
Pendi ng
1 t o 5 Years
Pending
1 t o 5 Years
Pending
1 to 5 Years
Pending
oo
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5
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r
r r
.tne. U.S.
ConiZUwtion
cxct&A-ivc (IntL -unpoivi. noK cAueZ and
X
�cm* cha : s lumber case
In August 1S70, Cha Che pleaded guity to
taking $ 23 worth of lumber from a building contractor in Lincoln Park. A?. h< stood unemotional
and s i l e n t before Judge Rom1t1 , he was given the
maximum sentence one can rece1/e f o r petty
theft—a year. He is now ser/ing the one-year
sentence, We have included '.his section as part
of the pamphlet because we f eel that 1t 1s Important f o r oeoDle to know ;he circumstances o f
^hs case.
In the spring of 19CrJ, the Young Lords Organization began planning a new day care center
where welfare mothers could leave their children
wh1U looking f o r work. It was also seen as a
means of involving welfare mothers 1n the community—
especially 1n the issue o f urban renewal, as they
would be most a f f e c t e d by Daley's i n n e r - c i t y
removal of the poor.
The comuunlty"responded w e l l . Many persons
dropped Into People's Church to o f f e r t h e i r s e r v i c e s . The Young Lords gathered long l i s t s of
children, parents, teachers, and personnel who
along with the Young Lords would make up the
center. They had v i s i t e d other centers to see how
they were managed. They repainted the church
ir. bright rainbow colors f o r the children. Community residents painted c o l o r f u l pictures of clowns,
birds, &no animals on the walls inside the church.
It was to be named after Manuel Ramos, whose port r a i t was painted on the w a l l . Coronunlty r e s i dents also put together a mural of Puerto R1can
history.
Preparatory meetings began with people who
would be involved in the cei t e r . The opening
date was set. People's Park was to be used f o r
recreation. Nutritionists we-e busy making up
menus. A few large companies ind many small
£7
�conmunlty stores promised to donate food and
supplies. There were more than enough nurses
a v a i l a b l e . The Young Lords refused any aid from
the federal government or the c i t y . They did
not want the program co-opted.
As opening date approached, Mayor Daley
began t o move. . The Board o f Health and the F1re
Department paid a v i s i t to P e o p l e ' s Church. At
f i r s t , the Young Lords prevented t h e i r e n t r y ,
but the center s t a f f and the c o n g r e g a t i o n — s a t i s f i e d
that the church was 1n p e r f e c t c o n d i t i o n — t o l d
the Young Lords that no harm could be done. For
two o r three hours, the o f f i c i a l s Inspected every
corner o f the church. When they f i n i s h e d , they
ordered f i r e e x i t signs be put up 1n a l l entrances.
They concluded that the church f l o o r (the s i z e o f
a gym) had to be raised two or three f e e t . They
also decided the c e l l i n g was too high. They
Insisted that 1f these things were not done, there
would be no day care c e n t e r . They announced they
would come t o the church on a weekly basis to
check f o r more v i o l a t i o n s . Meanwhile, the Young
Lords and the day care center s t a f f who were d i s tributing f l i e r s about the center were harrassed
by the p o l i c e and charged with d i s o r d e r l y conduct,
l e a f l e t t l n g too c l o s e to a s c h o o l , e t c . .
Attention had to be refocused on the people being
j a i l e d f o r whom bond money had t o be r a i s e d .
The Health Department took the minister and
congregation to court over code v i o l a t i o n s . The
judge Imposed a $ 200 f i n e f o r every day the
church stayed open. A t r i a l had to take place to
determine whether or not the church could remain
open. This Involved not only the f a t e o f the day
care center but the f a t e o f the church and the
Young Lords' o f f i c e .
Authorities had ordered that room p a r t i t i o n s
be b u i l t along with the enormous ^ o o r . The
Young Lords and the center s t r ^ f
,t around
28
�to all the lumber yards In the area asking f o r
donations. They came back with two o r three
scraps o f wood. Cha Cha could not understand v/hy
these huge lunber yards could donate only a few
scraps o f wood when they supplied the same b u i l d ing contractors who were pushing the poor out o f
Lincoln Park. .He went himself t o ask f o r donations. When they brought Cha Cha more scraps, he
told them a n g r i l y , "You keep that garbage. We
d i d n ' t come here to beg from you. This donation
1s something you owe to the cormunlty.' 1 With that,
they l e f t , got Into their c a r , and drove o f f to
the o f f i c e . That night Cha Cha and a friend were
arrested. At the p o l i c e s t a t i o n , Cha Cha told
the Young Lords that he did take the lumber; that
he had mlstaklngly reacted and that he would be
willing now to pay the consequences.
In c o u r t , the building contractor could not
prove the wood belonged to him. Further, Cha Cha
had been given a r e c e i p t f o r the wood. There were
no witnesses who had seen Cha Cha take the wood.
In the l a b o r a t o r y , sand, dust, and wood p a r t i c l e s
had been found 1n the defendants' c l o t h i n g , but
1n c o u r t , the l a b technicians said that these
p a r t i c l e s could be picked up almost anywhere. The
only reason Cha Cha was found g u i l t y o f taking
$ 23 worth o f lumber was because he himself told
them he took 1 t . The only reason there was a
t r i a l was because at the l a s t moment the State's
Attorney placed another f i c t i t i o u s charge on Cha
Cha related t o the case. I f he had been found
guilty o f the other charge, he would have gotten
f i v e years Instead o f one—all f o r $ 23. The other
defendant got t h i r t y days 1n j a i l f o r the same
case: his sentence was l a t e r n u l l i f i e d .
CHA CHA'S BOND JUMPING CASE
At the end o f June or 1n early July o f this
year, Cha Cha w i l l go to
'al f o r three counts
of bond jumping relateJ *
he f a c t that he did not
Z1
�show up in court when he was supposed to s t a r t
serving his one-year sentence f o r the lumber
case and begin t r i a l f o r the remaining c a s e s ,
which at the time totaled n i n e . The charge o f
jumping bond 1s usually dropped, but Cha Cha 1s not
j u s t another case. Before Hanrahan l e f t o f f i c e ,
he made sure Cha Cha—al though away from the
conmunlty at the time—got charged with Junplng
bond, which brought the t o t a l cases pending t o
ten.
Bond jumping 1s a case which c a r r i e s a
maximum sentence o f not l e s s than one year and
not more than f i v e years f o r each charge.
When a person f a l l s to appear 1n c o u r t , he 1s
Issued a warrant and has t h i r t y days to appear
to quash the warrant. I t 1s very easy f o r the
S t a t e ' s Attorney to prove a person g u i l t y o f
jumping bond. All that 1s necessary 1s to place
the clerk o f the court on the witness stand
to declare that the defendant did not appear.
The judge then f i n d s the defendant g u i l t y .
However, 1f 1t 1s a Jury t r i a l — a s Cha Cha w i l l
have—1t 1s up t o a jury t o hear .the defendant's
side of the story to f i n d him g u i l t y o r not g u i l t y
o f intentional bond jumping. The whole matter
hinges upon " I n t e n t . " Did the defendant have
Intentions o f jumping bond o r was he placed I n . e x position where he had no o t h e r c h o i c e ?
The matter now w i l l be in the hands of the
j u r y . I t will be Interesting t o see what type of
jury Cha Cha g e t s . There are not many Latino
j u r o r s . So the case r e s t s on 1) whether there
1s a jury o f Latino peers t o l i s t e n to the e v i dence; 2; whether the judge and S t a t e ' s Attorney
w i l l permit the choosing o f Latinos 1f there are
any Latinos to be chosen; 3) whether the jury w i l l
be able to understand Cha Cha's background and
culture and 4) most Importantly, whether or not
there will be a f a i r t r i a l .
30
�CALL FOR ACTION
The hypocrisy o f the judicial system in t h i s
country is clear in the f a : t that poor and oppressed
people c a n ' t get a f a i r t r i a l by a jury of their
peers. This in turn r e f l e c t s the f a l s i t y and
contradictions of the s o - c a l l e d "democratic way
of l i f e . " The self-determination and s p i r i t of
struggle of an oppressed oer.ple can never be
t o t a l l y repressed as shown oy the heroic struggle
of the Vietnamese people a id as reflected in the
words o f Cha Cha Jimenez:
They can
They can
They can
BUT THEY
j a i l us;
b r u t a l i z e us;
even k i l l us;
CAN'T STOP US!
Cha Cha represents t h i s growing s p i r i t of
"lucha" and p o l i t i c a l consciousness among Latino
people in the U.S.. That consciousness comes
from the i n j u s t i c e , the repression, and the
e x p l o i t a t i o n which v i c t i m i z e us. We can c l e a r l y see
how this process comes about when we look at the
transformation of the Young Lords from a
s t r e e t gang defending i t s e l f against other
s t r e e t gangs—including Latinos—to a true
Latino p o l i t i c a l organization defending
Latinos against Daley's gang*--including the
p o l i c e department and the court system.
We should f i g h t against the injustices
of this y&nqul government which wants to
oppress us and put Cha Cha in j a i l . We should
f i g h t against the i n j u s t i c e of Door housing
which f o r c e s our people to l i v e in rat-androach-infested gnettos, where, f a l l i n g plaster
and cheap paint give lead-nolsoning to our
children—our children who c'on't know what 1t
means to l i v e in one place f o r more than four
or f i v e years because urban renewal oushes
our families frorr, one qhetto to another.
3[
�We should fight against the i n j u s t i c e of racism
which keeps all poor and oppressed peoples
divided because of color and keeps Latinos
divided among themselves. Hermanos are
constantly fighting each other f o r j o b s , government funds f o r education, and t u r f , while this
r a c i s t government makes no c o l o r d i s t i n c t i o n
when i t decides who 1t w i l l oppress—economically,
educationally, or by means o f open aggression
Including police b r u t a l i t y . We should f i g h t
against the Injustice of a court system which
places high bonds our people c a n ' t a f f o r d , so
they have to stay in j a i l separated from family
and friends until they are c a l l e d to c o u r t ,
where their "court-appointed a t t o r n e y — - a l i a s
PUBLIC DEFENDER—has made a deal f o r them with
the State's Attorney's o f f i c e to get them l e s s
time f o r a crime they did not commit.
We should f i g h t not only against these
i n j u s t i c e s but against all the i n j u s t i c e s o f
this yanqui government which f o r c e s Its culture
and l i f e s t y l e s on our country.and f o r c e s our
people out of our country by promising them
bigger and better j o b s , homes, and l i v e s , that
do not e x i s t here 1n the American ghettos. We
should and must f i g h t against a l l the i n j u s t i c e s
of this yanqui government that wants to put
people who struggle—people 11 ke Cha Cha—in j a i l .
Que viva
elISsPueblo!
m > „
Libertad a Cha Cha!
u
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection
Subject
The topic of the resource
Young Lords (Organization)
Puerto Ricans--United States
Civil Rights--United States--History
Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.)
Personal narratives
Social justice
Community activists--Illinois--Chicago
Description
An account of the resource
Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives.
The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Jiménez, José, 1948-
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-04-25
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Format
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Language
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eng
spa
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-65
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
2012-2017
Text
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
BTS00061-01
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Quiñones, Yolanda
Romero, Vicky
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1993/1994
Title
A name given to the resource
Young Lords history (English), 1993-1994
Description
An account of the resource
History of the Young Lords Organization.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Depaul University Library. Special Collections and Archives
Subject
The topic of the resource
Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.)
Civil Rights -- United States -- History
Community activists
Puerto Ricans -- United States
Social justice
Relation
A related resource
Young Lords in Lincoln Park interviews
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In Copyright
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Format
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application/pdf
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c735e731c3efa2dca6c600d394d7c4ef.jpg
4429975b7d09e47f472ba27dcd542a59
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Believing and Belonging on Campus
Creator
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Kaufman Interfaith Institute
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Interfaith Photovoice
Description
An account of the resource
During the 2024 Winter semester at GVSU, the Kaufman Interfaith Institute and Interfaith Photovoice hosted nine students from different religious, spiritual, and secular backgrounds for a semester-long cohort centered on storytelling. By using predominantly mobile-phone photography, these students explored what it meant to believe and belong on campus and in the greater West Michigan community. This project was designed to help capture their experiences and stories, to enable them to find their voice through photography. The cohort culminated in an exhibition displayed on multiple GVSU campuses and curated by the students around three self-selected themes: Religious & Spiritual Practices, Barriers to Belonging, and Creating Welcoming Spaces.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2024
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In Copyright
Subject
The topic of the resource
College students
Belonging
Hinduism
Islam
Judaism
Students, Foreign
LGBTQ+ people
Orthodox Eastern Church
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University Libraries. Special Collections and University Archives
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
KII-03
Format
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image/jpg
Type
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Image
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Relation
A related resource
Believing and Belonging on Campus: An Interfaith Photovoice Project (project)
Still Image
A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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2024-Kaufman-Exhibit-11
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Rachel
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2024
Title
A name given to the resource
Barriers to Belonging 2
Description
An account of the resource
Distortions and internal conflicts and challenges that disrupt my sense of belonging. A fractured identity struggling to connect the pieces to the larger puzzle. Rejection, judgment, exclusion not only from others but especially myself. A sense of sadness, disconnection. The process of working together in photovoice with welcoming people around me allowed me to dig deeper into self-reflection and my spirituality. I wish we had more spaces like this in our GVSU community.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Kaufman Interfaith Institute (exhibitor)
Subject
The topic of the resource
College students
Belonging
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. Kaufman Interfaith Institute
Relation
A related resource
Believing and Belonging on Campus: An Interfaith Photovoice Project (project)
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In Copyright
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Image
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
image/jpg
Language
A language of the resource
eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/773d617f70a7de6414b1f759b196d385.jpg
b30e2ee04bec424d39ddaf057b48c279
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Believing and Belonging on Campus
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Kaufman Interfaith Institute
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Interfaith Photovoice
Description
An account of the resource
During the 2024 Winter semester at GVSU, the Kaufman Interfaith Institute and Interfaith Photovoice hosted nine students from different religious, spiritual, and secular backgrounds for a semester-long cohort centered on storytelling. By using predominantly mobile-phone photography, these students explored what it meant to believe and belong on campus and in the greater West Michigan community. This project was designed to help capture their experiences and stories, to enable them to find their voice through photography. The cohort culminated in an exhibition displayed on multiple GVSU campuses and curated by the students around three self-selected themes: Religious & Spiritual Practices, Barriers to Belonging, and Creating Welcoming Spaces.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2024
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In Copyright
Subject
The topic of the resource
College students
Belonging
Hinduism
Islam
Judaism
Students, Foreign
LGBTQ+ people
Orthodox Eastern Church
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University Libraries. Special Collections and University Archives
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
KII-03
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
image/jpg
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Image
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Relation
A related resource
Believing and Belonging on Campus: An Interfaith Photovoice Project (project)
Still Image
A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
2024-Kaufman-Exhibit-10
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Rachel
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2024
Title
A name given to the resource
Barriers to Belonging 1
Description
An account of the resource
We can get in our own way of belonging. I judge myself harshly that I don’t fit into any one category and get in my own way of belonging to any one thing. I judge others (even though I am trying to break this habit) before I enable myself to open up to others. My fear of rejection holds me back from feeling belonging with friends and family. GVSU helps to provide spaces that I feel like I belong to and helps me discover people who care just as deeply about others and diverse viewpoints, providing me sanctuary. GVSU feels safe to me. GVSU provides experiences like photovoice where I am able to express the most vulnerable parts of myself to others without fear of rejection. This experience in particular allowed me to reflect deeply within myself to better understand how to thrive on campus and with those around me.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Kaufman Interfaith Institute (exhibitor)
Subject
The topic of the resource
College students
Belonging
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. Kaufman Interfaith Institute
Relation
A related resource
Believing and Belonging on Campus: An Interfaith Photovoice Project (project)
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In Copyright
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Image
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
image/jpg
Language
A language of the resource
eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/bc49f52063cc8b6f1eefd76afabb3913.mp4
08beaef91949b8ad3dba5d67d4cdd686
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8de53a83645cac60689d350fdb91704e.pdf
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PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans' History Project
Richard Rafferty
World War II
38 minutes
(00:00:37) Early Life
-Born in Grand Rapids, Michigan on October 31, 1924
-Parents were Raymond and Violet Rafferty
-Father worked as a mail carrier for the Post Office and mother stayed at home
-Father kept his job during the Great Depression
-Also had steady work
-Had a younger brother
-Also served in the Navy
(00:01:41) Start of the War
-Working at a theater in Grand Rapids and remembers a cashier telling him Japan bombed Pearl Harbor
-Prior to the attack on Pearl Harbor he heard there were negotiations between the U.S. and Japan
-After Pearl Harbor everything changed
-Everybody got behind the war effort
-People reused tires and other items that could not be produced new because of the war
-Remembers the cigarette company, Lucky Strike, changing their label color
-Went from green to red because the green color was made with copper
-Mother went to work in a war factory
(00:03:15) Enlisting in the Navy
-Knew he would get into the service because of the draft, but he also wanted to get into the service
-Graduated from Catholic Central High School in 1942
-Did construction work in Muskegon, Michigan the following summer
-In the December 1942 he enlisted in the Navy Reserve as a Naval Aviation Cadet
(00:04:12) Ground School (Pre-Flight Training)
-Called up for active duty in April 1943
-Part of the Navy's Pre-Flight V5 Aviators Program
-Ground School
-Learned about aeronautics, meteorology, aircraft recognition, and Navy regulations
-Trained at Ohio Wesleyan University
-Program lasted three months
-Close order drills, marching, and physical training
-Emphasis on discipline
-If you did not follow regulations you received a demerit
-If you received too many demerits you got kicked out of the program
-Didn't find the training too difficult and enjoyed it
-All of the men were roughly the same age and mostly from the Midwest
(00:06:37) Advanced Pre-Flight Training
-Sent to Saint Mary's College in Moraga, California for advanced pre-flight training
-More physical training with a competitive and team-based emphasis
-Football, basketball, track, wrestling, and boxing
-College was near Oakland and San Francisco
-Had weekly tests on every subject
-Very little time off
�-Training through the day, studying at night, then sleeping
-Got weekends off sometimes
-Visited Columbus, Ohio when he was at Ohio Wesley University
-Visited San Francisco, California when he was at Saint Mary's College
-Spent two to three months at Saint Mary's College
(00:08:58) Whitman College-Flight Training
-Sent to Whitman College in Walla Walla, Washington
-Began training with the Piper J-3 Cub
-Learned the fundamentals of flying a plane
-Started with an instructor then solo flew
-Learned the basics of flying
-Taking off, landing, flying safely, and how to get out of a stall
-Came easily and naturally to him and he found the experience pleasant
-Flew daily for about half of his time at Whitman College (1-1 ½ months of daily flight)
(00????:11:55) Primary Training
-Sent to Max Westheimer Field in Norman, Oklahoma for primary training
-Flew the N2S Stearman biplane
-Great plane for acrobatics
-Learned how to fly like a fighter pilot
-Started with an instructor then flew alone
-Flew the Ryan PT-22 Recruit, a two seat, low-wing monoplane
-Learned formation flying
-Stearman was much better than the Piper Cub
-Felt the Stearman was one of the greatest planes
-Trained there for eight or nine months
(00:13:54) Advanced Training
-Sent to Naval Air Station Corpus Christi, Texas for advanced training
-Started off by flying the SNV (BT-13 Valiant) for more formation flying training
-Moved on to training with the SNJ (T-6 Texan)
-Advanced training aircraft very similar to a fighter plane
-Remembers that you could do pretty much anything with an SNJ
-Accidents did happen
-Had his own minor accident in Primary Training with the Stearman
-Learned how to fly by instruments
-Means flying without line of sight
-Did night and day flying
-Learned how to take off and land on a carrier-length runway
-Experienced weather restrictions
-No flying if it was too overcast, or if there were thunderstorms
-Completed advanced training and graduated on November 1, 1944
-Held the rank of Naval Aviator, Ensign
(00:18:54) Operational Training
-Sent to Naval Air Station Sanford, Florida for Operational Training with a squadron
-Flew the FM-2 Wildcat, the workhorse of the U.S. Navy during WWII
-Learned how to land on an actual aircraft carrier
-Qualified on the USS Solomons at Port Everglades, Florida
-Revved up to full throttle with brakes on to take off
-For landing, a signalman said if you were too high/low or too fast/slow
-Got into position, cut the engine, and glided onto the carrier
�-Had a few planes go off the carrier into the water, but no pilots died
-Had ships standing by to recover pilots
-Easy to get out of the plane because you kept the canopy open for take off and landing
-He got it right the first time and it was exciting
-Had more freedom since he was an officer in the Navy
-Could go off the base at night and on weekends
-Visited Sanford, went to the bars, and met girls
(00:25:22) Leave
-Between bases he received leave
-Usually got a week off when he transferred to a new base
-Leave was based on availability of space at bases and schools
-Had to wait a week or two for the base to have room for incoming cadets
(00:26:43) VC-80 Squadron
-Joined VC (composite)-80 Squadron
-12 TBM Avenger torpedo bombers
-16 FM-2 Wildcat fighter planes
-Carried out escort duty and observation
-They were supposed to go to the USS Steamer Bay in San Diego, but those orders were canceled
-He joined the squadron in Seattle
-Went to Coos Bay, Oregon to learn how to fly as a unit
-Unit moved to Holtville, California for night flying, gunnery training, and bombardier training
-Flew training missions every day
-Learned how to operate as a unit
(00:29:12) End of the War & End of Service
-Heard news that the atomic bombs were dropped on Japan
-Had planned on being part of the invasion of Japan
-Atomic bombs canceled those orders
-Relieved that the war was over
-Hated to leave the unit, but was ready to go home
-Discharged from active duty in November 1945
-Spent the rest of his time with VC-80 decommissioning the squadron
-Transferred to Naval Air Station Grosse Ile, Michigan to work as an operations officer
-Sent to Great Lakes Naval Station, Illinois to get discharged from active duty to “ready reserve”
(00:30:55) Life after the War
-Returned to Grand Rapids, Michigan
-Got married
-Had three children
-Worked part-time jobs and went to Grand Rapids Junior College (now Community College)
-Went to work for Michigan Bell Telephone Company
-Got to be the area manager before retiring
(00:31:26) Continued Service with the Navy Reserve
-Flew monthly with the Navy Reserve at Grosse Ile and Kellogg Field in Battle Creek
-Flew the SNJ, FM-2 Wildcat, and AD-4 Skyraider
-Never got to fly any of the new jet fighters
-Never received any orders for the Korean War
-Spent 25 years in the Reserve
-Former pilots and Navy crewmen joined the squadron during the Vietnam War
-Entered the retired reserve until he could get full retirement
-Transferred to a VP squadron (patrol squadron) with P-2V Neptunes
�-Knew he would never get to fly those, so he requested a transfer to another unit
-Served with the “surface division” of the Navy at Jackson, Michigan
-Worked as a recruiting officer and flew once a week
-Did that for five or six years
(00:36:52) Reflections on Service
-Feels that his time in the service shaped his whole life
-Looks back on his time in the Navy as an enjoyable time in his life
-Believes that it was a good experience for him because he didn't see combat
-Taught him independence and made him mature
-Enjoyed flying and the camaraderie he had in the Navy Reserve
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27_RaffertyR1744V
Title
A name given to the resource
Rafferty, Richard Raymond (Interview outline and video), 2015
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-04-16
Description
An account of the resource
Richard Rafferty was born on October 31, 1924 in Grand Rapids, Michigan. He grew up in Grand Rapids and in the December 1942 he enlisted in the Navy Reserve as an Aviation Cadet. He was called up for active service in April 1943 and received training at Ohio Wesleyan University, St. Mary's College of California, Whitman College, Max Westheimer Field, and Naval Air Station Corpus Christi. Richard graduated from training on November 1, 1944 and became a Naval Aviator with the rank of ensign. He received operational training at Naval Air Station Sanford, Florida and qualified for aircraft carrier service aboard the USS Solomons at Port Everglades, Florida. From Florida he went to Seattle to join VC-80 Squadron, a torpedo bomber and fighter squadron. They operated in Coos Bay, Oregon and Holtville, California and when the war ended in August 1945 he helped decommission the squadron. He also served at Naval Air Station Grosse Ile, Michigan as an operations officer then went to Great Lakes Naval Station, Illinois to be discharged from active duty in November 1945. After the war he stayed in the Navy Reserve for 25 years serving at Grosse Ile, Battle Creek, and Jackson, Michigan.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Rafferty, Richard Raymond
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
United States. Navy</dc:subject
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Moving Image
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/158b0aed4b095b86ff2626c7ea2bc1ea.pdf
e798df54097bb56d88739cfafbb69079
PDF Text
Text
.
reenways
Greenways ...
A Prescription for Vital Communities
in Southeast Michigan
• • • ••••• • ••• •• •••••• • •• •• ••••••••••••••••••••••
Access to our natural and cultural treasures is part of the prescription
for invigorating our communities in southeast Michigan. Greenways
reinforce community efforts to develop strong and sustainable economies
as well as clean, safe, and accessible environments. The Southeast
Michigan Greenways project seeks to improve the quality oflife, economic
vitality, and environmental health of the region by creating an interconnected greenway system.
Greenways are open-space connectors linking parks, nature reserves,
cultural features, or historic sites with each other and with populated
areas. Greenways connect wildlife to habitat and conservation to economic
development. They connect people to nature and to each other...
Are you one of the 100 million Americans who walk for pleasure,
100 million who bike, 135 million who watch wildlife, 17 million who
horseback ride, 12.5 million who in-line skate, 9 million who canoe,
or 6 million who cross-country ski? Ifso, you are a potential greenway
user. The creation ofgreenways throughout southeast Michigan will
provide residents with access to outdoor recreation close to home.
~
~
RAILS
- LO -
1RAILS
CONSERVANCl
Michigan Field Offic('
·Green\vays
Rivers, Trails, and Conservation
Assist:mce Program
Greenways ...
Greenways ...
An Investment in Our Communities
A Network of Community Benefits
•• •• •••• •• • •••• •••••• •••• • •••••• • ••••• • ••• • •• •••• ••••••••••• • •••• •• •••
••• • •••• • • • • • •••••• •••••• • •••• • • ••••••••• • ••••• ••••• •••••••••••••• ••••
All across the country, greenways are proving
to be a wise economic investment for the
communities that create them.
Greenways have broad appeal because they
cross a variety of landscapes, provide a wide
range ofbenefits, and give residents ofsoutheast Michigan a way to define and preserve
their community's quality oflife.
ATTRACTING NEW BUSINESSES.
Quality of life for employees
the second most important
tourist attraction in the scare.
In Vermont, statistics show chat
tourists stay an average one day
longer in Stowe than in ocher
was the third most important factor in locating a business, according
resort areas in the scare; this extra
co an annual survey of chief executives conducted by Cushman and
day and revenue are attributed ro
Wakefield in 1989. This view is echoed by Jim Alexander, the man-
the Stowe Recreation Path.
ager of industrial marketing at Cleveland Electric and Illuminating
Company and supporter of the Ohio and Erie Canal Corridor, an
87-mile multi-use recreational trail along the Ohio and Erie Canal
and Cuyahoga River. Jim stares, "If it's good for residents, then ir's
good for my company's business ... it's a way to market the area more
aggressively ... ir's a way of selling rhe community."
BOOS1 ING TOURISM DOLLARS.
In San Antonio, Texas, the
Riverwalk is considered the anchor of char city's annual 1.2 billion
dollar tourist industry. A user survey concluded chat che Riverwalk is
STEWARDSHIP OF LAND AND WILDLIFE.
Greenways protect
environmentally important lands and native planes and animals.
Greenways can connect fragmented wildlife habitat and create access
co different kinds of habitat. These linkages are beneficial for wildlife
breeding and foraging. Greenways provide opportunities for people to
experience the natural world and better understand their place in it.
PLANNING FOR THE
HEALTH AND RECREATION.
Greenways provide opportunities and
FUTURE.
Greenways provide
places for a variety of close-to-home recreation chat helps community
a way for communities co help
residents keep fie, thereby reducing health care coses. In 1992, Men's
direct the future of development.
and greenways are essential ingrediencs of any serious metropolitan revitalization plan. Such a 'green
Fitness Magazine reported chat every mile a person walks or runs will
The Southeast Michigan
save society 24 cents in medical and ocher costs. Also the Corporate
Council of Governments
infrastructure' has become the central reason for the continued vitality
Wellness Study done in the city of San Jose in 1988 found char people
projects a 6% population
of many prominent cities in the United States and throughout the
who exercise regularly have 14% lower claims against their medical
growth between 1980 and
world," states David Burwell, President of Rails-to-Trails Conservancy.
insurance, spend 30% fewer days in the hospital, and file 41 % fewer
20 IO accompanied by a 40% increase in developed land. Existing
A Trust for Public Land survey confirms this statement. It found
claims greater than $5,000.
open space and agricultural lands will continue to disappear without
CATALYST FOR COMMUNITY
REVITALIZATION.
"Public trails
chat virtually every city with a major industrial waterfront sought ro
improve public access and attract new commercial development ro
the waterfront. For example, the Tennessee RiverPark, a 22mile greenway in Chattanooga, has sparked rhe city's renaissance. The River Park and the new Tennessee Aquarium have
attracted 275 million dollars in adjacent, mainly private,
investment in the past ten years.
ALTERNATIVE TRANSPORTATION.
Greenways with trails provide
pedestrians and bicyclists with safe routes ro and from school, work,
shopping cencers, and parks, thereby reducing congestion on roads.
A recent nationwide public opinion poll, conducted by the Louis
Harris Polling firm, found dm 52% of all Americans would be
willing co ride a bicycle to work, at least occasionally, if they could
do so on a separate, safe, designated bicycle path.
INCREASING PROPERTY VALUES.
A 1995 study of home
buyers, conducted by American Lives, Inc., for the real
WATER QUALITY AND FLOOD
CONTROL.
Greenways along river
planning and citizen action. There is increasing evidence chat lowdensity residential development coses communities. For example,
a 1993 study in suburban Cleveland (Lake County) found chat for
every dollar of residential tax revenue, $1.54 was spent on public
services. By contrast, farm, forest, and open lands required $0.34
in services for each dollar collected.
SENSE OF PLACE.
Greenways provide communities an opportunity
ro have growth and development chat respects the character and quality of the landscape. Ed McMahon of The Conservation Fund asks,
estate industry, showed that consumers desire more interac-
corridors provide natural flood
"Why do people feel a sense of loss like losing a loved one or a friend
tion with the outdoor environment. The features chat will
control by preserving floodplains
when a historic building is demolished, a scenic view is destroyed, or
command premium prices and were ranked as "essential"
and reduce public coses associated
a grove of trees bulldozed? ... The justifica_tion for preserving natural
include lots of natural open space and plenty of walking
with structural flood control mea-
areas, historic buildings, special landscapes, and scenic views has as
and biking paths linking homes to wooded areas and park-
sures. '. 1 southeast Michigan, green-
much to do with our need for psychological stability and cultural
lands. "Non-essential amenities" such as tennis courcs and
ways along rivers help to protect
continuity as it does with beauty and ecology. The farmland, forests,
golf courses were ranked 28th and 29th out of 39 features.
che quality of drinking water by
open spaces, and historic buildings of southeast Michigan are a
In addition, numerous studies have demonstrated that
providing vegetative buffers chat
resource both co the economy and to the psychology of the area."
parks, greenways, and trails increase nearby property values.
filcer out pollutants.
�Greenwa
••
• •
The vision or southeast Michigan
•
Greenwayas
• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • ••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
The Southeast Michigan Greenways project presents a
bold vision for the future: a seven-county interconnected
greenway network, that links communities to existing
parks, trails, and open space; protects natural and cultural
resources; and improves the quality of life throughout the
region. The project builds upon the foresight ofstate,
county, and local park agencies and Huron-Clinton
Metropolitan Authority's halfcentury of recreation and
A pro1ect of Rails-to-Trails Conservancy, Michigan Chapter, in partnership with.
The New Directions ln1t1at1ve. The Community Foundation for Southeastern Michigan,
DALMAC Fund, Michigan Department of Natural Resources. Michigan Department of
Transportation's Transportation Enhancement Program, National Park Service - Rivers,
Trails. and Conservation Assistance Program. U-M School of Natural Resources and
Environment, Southeast Michigan Council of Governments, the Detroit River
Greenway Partnership, Michigan Department of Environmental Quality's Coastal Zone
Management Program, ICI Americas Inc., Chapman Forestry Foundation, Deloitte &
Touche Company, Hewlett-Packard Corporation, The Conservation Fund • American
Greenways Dupont Awards Program, Michigan Environmental Council. Brighton
Township, Hamburg Township, Green Oak Township, Genoa Township, and the City of
Brig hton. Substantial technical assistance has been received from the Huron-Clinton
Metropolitan Authority, county and city parks and planning agencies in southeast
Michigan, and other public and private organizations The project's public-private partnership has helped to harness the distinctive strengths that both public and private
The Southeast Michigan Greenways project is a collaborative effort with citizens, public officials, public institu-
and assessment ofgreenway opportunities along rivers,
abandoned railroad lines, parks, utility corridors, and
tions, non-profit organizations, and the private sector.
other routes in Livingston, Macomb, Monroe, Oakland,
The project provides the leadership to address the issues
St. Clair, Washtenaw, and ~yne Counties. Many com-
of regional coordination, funding, and building public
munities are using this information to develop their own
support for creating an interconnected regional greenway
greenway plans and to work toward a regional greenway
network.
network. The project has completed a resource inventory
conservation efforts in the region. A regional greenway
network will be a gift to future generations.
ent1t1es can offer.
Legend
........................................................ ............. .
,I
(
Existing Significant Open Space
""·
Existing or Partially Existing Greenway
~
1e, and Villages
( ' c1111 y
lake
Boundaries
Planned or Proposed Greenway
Conceptual Greenway
<J.ID
Oakland County is rich in natural and recreational resources, including
the headwaters of four river systems, over 400 natural lakes, eight stare
parks and recreation areas, three Metroparks, ten county parks, and
numerous local parks. In addition, the county has approximately 25
miles of rail-trails, including the popular Paint Creek Trail and West
Bloomfield Trail Network. County officials are working with local
groups to extend and connect existing greenways in a county-wide
green way system.
ro
The Bridge to Bay Trail is being planned and built along the shorelines
of Lake Huron, the Sr. Clair River, and Lake St. Clair. This trail will
connect many of the county's rivers, cities, hisroric sites, and state park
and wildlife areas. The public and private secrors are working together
internationally ro improve wildlife habitat on the St. Clair River.
Citizen groups and county officials are assessing additional greenway
opportunities, including 75 miles of abandoned railroad corridors and
biologically rich wildlife refuges and state game areas.
Lake
St. Clair
Ca n ada
~
Officials and citizens in Livingston County are working to creare a
county-wide greenway network to complement county's rapid economic
development. A greenway vision has been prepared which proposes
co link the county's wealth of natural and recreational resources, which
include three state recreation areas, two state game areas, and two
Merroparks. The LakeLands Trail State Park provides safe trail access
to inland lakes, rivers, wildlife habitat, and recreation opportunities.
l I-e
I
Work is under way on rhe Macomb County Bikeway, which is ro
connect three Metroparks, one state park, and several local parks.
The Bikeway will provide a loop of green space and trails through
the county using the Clinton River, its tributaries, and ocher corridors.
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A greenway and linked park system has been developed along considerable portions of the Huron River. Extension of the river greenway
system is planned to connect Ann Arbor and Ypsilanti with outlying
Metroparks and scare recreation areas. Greenway efforts are enhanced by
dedicated organizations such as the local land trust, watershed council,
and city and county agencies.
With nearly half of the region's population, Wayne County is recognizing
that greenways are a catalyst for community revitalization. Downriver communities are providing greater public access to che Detroit River. The Detroit
River Greenway Partnership has been formed to connect existing riverfront
parks and cultural resources with a continuous greenway from Lake Sr. Clair
to Lake Erie. The Rouge River is a national and regional model for community
action to restore and enhance natural, cultural, and recreational resources.
The city of Monroe is creating a multi-r crail network along and near the
River Raisin to improve public access to arural areas and the city's significant historic sires an~ oursranding archit crure. There are numerous other
green way opporrunmes that could conn t residents of Monroe County to
a state park, three state game areas, and e Lake Erie shoreline.
Funding for this ~osrer provided by
The Chapman Forestry Foundation, the National Park Se~ ice-Rivers, Trails, and Conservation Assistance Program,
and the Rails-to-Trails Consecvancy-Michigan Field Office.
A project of:
In collaboration wi th and suppon from:
e
New
Directions
Initiative
RAILS
- to
TRAILS
CONSERVANCY
M1ch1g~n fi(IJ Offic<
In Detroit, the Mayor's Land Use Task Force recommends establishing a
greenway system which will double or triple the city's open space, link major
parks, and incorporate a variety of uses such as bikeways, boulevards, nature
areas, community gardens, golf courses, and commercial activities.
Rive rs, Trails, and Conservatio n
Assistance Program
e
Community F~undatign
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School of Natural & sourses
and En vironment
SEMCOG
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�
Dublin Core
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Title
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Wyckoff Planning and Zoning Collection
Creator
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Planning & Zoning Center (Lansing, Mich.) (Organization)
Wyckoff, Mark A.
Description
An account of the resource
Municipal master plans and zoning ordinances from across the state of Michigan, spanning from the 1960s to the early 2020s. The bulk of the collection was compiled by urban planner Mark Wyckoff over the course of his career as the founder and principal planner of the Planning and Zoning Center in Lansing, Michigan. Some additions have been made to the collection by municipalities since it was transferred to Grand Valley State University.
Coverage
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Michigan
Date
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1960/2023
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/870">Planning and Zoning Center Collection (RHC-240)</a>
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/NoC-US/1.0/">No Copyright - United States</a>
Subject
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Michigan
Comprehensive plan publications
Master plan reports
Zoning--Michigan
Zoning--Maps
Maps
Land use--planning
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Identifier
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RHC-240
Format
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application/pdf
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Text
Language
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eng
Text
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Detroit_Greenways-Pamphlet_undated
Creator
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Rails-to-Trails Conservancy
Rivers, Trails, and Conservation Assistance Program
Title
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A Vision for Southeast Michigan Greenways
Description
An account of the resource
A Vision for Southeast Michigan Greenways pamphlet poster was created by the Rails to Trails Conservancy and the Rivers, Trails, and Conservation Assistance Program
Subject
The topic of the resource
Recreation areas--Michigan--Detroit Region--Maps
Detroit, Michigan
Wayne County (Mich.)
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/870">Planning and Zoning Center Collection (RHC-240)</a>
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/NoC-US/1.0/">No Copyright - United States</a>
Type
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Text
Format
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application/pdf
Language
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eng
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5348b862d939c1f881f0821a02db5654.pdf
9854851be72afedddaf4725f6b6ad9d4
PDF Text
Text
Young
L ords
In
Lincoln
Park
Interviewee:
Rainbow
Coalition
Interviewers:
Jose
Jimenez
Location:
Grand
Valley
State
University
Special
Collections
Date:
10/23/2016
Runtime:
01:48:03
Biography
and
Description
The
Black
Panther
Party
for
Self
Defense,
founded
by
Bobby
Seale
and
Huey
P.
Newton
celebrated
their
50th
Anniversary
on
October
20-‐23
2016
in
the
Oakland
California
Museum.
Primary
organizers
in
the
Host
Committee
included:
Clark
Bailey,
Erica
Huggins,
Emory
Douglas,
Aaron
Dixon
and
Black
Panther
Party
Chairwoman
Elaine
Brown.
One
of
the
primary
events
of
the
conference
and
gala
was
a
panel
discussion
about
the
original
Rainbow
Coalition
begun
by
Illinois
Chapter
Chairman
Fred
Hampton.
The
moderator
was
Aaron
Dixon
and
panelists
included
founder
of
the
Young
Lords
Movement,
Jose
(Cha-‐Cha)
Jimenez;
Stan
McKinney
of
the
Illinois
BPP;
Co-‐
founder
of
the
Young
Patriots
Organization,
Hy
Thurman;
a
leader
of
the
Palestinian
Hamas
Bos
Campaign,
Dr.
Rabab
Abdulhadi;
Pam
of
the
Asian
American
Alliance
and
the
Red
Guard;
Professor
Harvey
of
the
I
Wor
Kuen;
and
Lenny
Foster
of
the
Navajo
Nation
and
the
American
Indian
Movement
(A.I.M.).
�Cha-‐Cha
Jimenez
discusses
the
origins
of
the
Rainbow
Coalition
and
the
first
time
the
Young
Lords
met
Fred
Hampton
in
February
1969
right
after
the
Lords
non
-‐
violently
occupied
a
police
community
workshop
meeting.
He
discusses
the
dual
struggles
of
Puerto
Ricans:
civil
rights
in
the
barrios,
and
human
rights
for
the
Puerto
Rican
Nation.
Stan
McKinney
discusses
CointelPro
and
its
use
of
gangs
describing
how
one
gang
was
shooting
in
the
projects
at
children
attending
the
BPP
Breakfast
for
Children
Program.
He
also
describes
the
charisma
of
Fred
Hampton
to
be
able
to
work
with
at
risk
youth
and
details
Fred’s
plotted
murder
by
the
FBI
CointelPro
and
State’s
Attorney
Hanrahan.
Hy
Thurman
discusses
the
origins
of
the
Young
Patriots
Organization
and
its
split
up
when
some
of
them
became
the
Young
Patriots
Party.
He
explains
that
the
organization
wanted
to
keep
the
organizing
focused
on
the
neighborhoods
and
explains
that
they
did
wear
the
confederate
flag
when
they
walked
into
the
bars
of
Uptown,
Chicago
but
it
most
Southern
Whites
did
not
realize
what
it
represented.
It
became
a
tool
for
discussing
racism
and
organizing
in
their
community.
Rabab
Abdulhadi
explained
that
she
grew
up
under
the
Israeli
Occupation
and
that
Palestinian
boys
would
sometimes
use
sexist
remarks
and
gestures
at
the
women
but
it
could
be
easily
resolved
by
telling
their
fathers
and
families.
However,
if
an
Israeli
soldier
would
attack
a
Palestinian
woman
the
woman
she
would
have
to
remain
silent
for
fear
that
it
would
jeopardize
the
lives
of
their
Palestinian
relatives.
She
explained
the
love
of
Palestinians
for
Mohammad
Ali
or
Cassius
Clay
and
said
that
her
parents
said
that
Angela
Davis
was
framed,
“the
proof,”
they
said
is,
“racism.”
Professor
Harvey,
is
a
lecturer
at
UC
Berkeley
and
recalls
being
part
of
the
I
Wor
Kuen
and
also
going
to
the
Black
Panther
office
in
Oakland
to
create
flyers
because
they
had
no
office
or
supplies.
He
participated
in
petition
drives
as
a
form
of
protest
and
says
that
it
was
a
duty
not
remain
silent
while
negativity
is
everywhere,
“things
get
worst”
she
said.
Pam
of
the
Asian
American
Alliance
and
the
Red
Guard
explained
how
her
Grandfather
left
China
to
work
on
the
construction
of
the
Panama
Canal
and
never
returned.
She
said
that
the
Red
Guard
started
a
Breakfast
for
Children
program
near
Jackson
Street,
in
San
Francisco’s
China
Town.
They
were
proud
of
Richard
Aoki
who
was
Chinese
and
a
Field
Marshall
for
the
original
Black
Panthers.
She
also
stated
that
they
were
Chinese
and
Chinatown
was
Chinese
but
it
took
the
Black
Panther
Party
to
teach
them
about
the
Red
Book
of
Mao
Tse
Tung.
Lenny
Foster
began
thanking
everyone
proudly
speaking
in
his
Navajo
language
because
that
is
what
he
spoke
growing
up.
During
World
War
II
Navajo
US
veterans
were
called
code
talkers
because
they
could
infiltrate
the
Japanese
and
speak
in
their
native
tongue
without
being
detected.
His
dad
was
also
a
U.S.
Marine
radio
operator.
When
Lenny
attended
Arizona
Western
College
he
joined
their
baseball
team
and
was
pretty
good.
He
said
then,
“
he
realized
he
did
not
have
any
money.”
On
a
trip
to
Denver,
Colorado
he
met
the
leaders
of
the
American
Indian
Movement
(A.I.M.).
He
asked
the
panel
to
help
him
try
to
get
the
Cleveland
Indians
to
stop
using
their
current
mascot
which
insults
Native
Americans.
�Transcript
AARON DIXON:
Come on up here, Cha-Cha. We got to get started. I’m sorry we’re
starting so late but there was a little confusion and the last time I went a little
overboard. You know how when you go to church, things last a little longer. But
we want to get started for this very important panel that we have here. I want
everybody to come on in and sit down and we still got more people coming in.
We got a line out there of people or is this it? Okay. So my name is Aaron
Dixon, I’m on the Host Committee helping to organize this event. And my job
was to bring in a lot of the organization that we had worked with in the past and
I’m just [00:01:00] really happy to have the original Rainbow Coalition up here.
(applause) We have a couple more people to add to this Coalition because the
Black Panther Party started very early in 1967 in terms of creating coalitions.
That was one of the most important aspects of what the Black Panther Party did
is brought coalition building. One of the first coalitions that the Black Panther
Party started was with, was in 1967 with the free, the Peace and Freedom Party.
Through the Peace and Freedom Party, the Black Panther Party ran political
offices. It was [00:02:00] mostly symbolic. They ran Eldridge Cleaver for
President, they ran Huey P. Newton and other Black Panther Party members. In
Seattle, we ran Black Panther Party members also on the Peace and Freedom
Party ticket in 1968. Then there was the Brown Beret Coalition that began in
1968 in Los Angeles and beginning to work with the Latino community. In 19was it ’69 in Chicago when Fred Hampton organized what is known as the
1
�Rainbow Coalition. The Rainbow Coalition was made up of the Young Lords
under Cha-Cha. I call him Cha-Cha. Now, he’s know as José, but I (laughter) -- I
[00:03:00] hope he doesn’t mind me calling him Cha-Cha because that’s how I
identify him, okay? Also, the other part of that coalition was the Young Patriot
Pary. I remember Preacherman as being one of the frontmen of the Patriot Party.
But we have Hy Thurman with us today who is also one of the important figures
of the Patriot Party at that time. (applause) We also have Stan McKinney from
the Illinois Chapter of the Black Panther Party (applause) and we also have
Lenny Foster with AIM. (applause) We also -- I’m going to be bringing up
Professor [00:04:00] Abdulhadi (inaudible). Do you want to stand for a second?
She’s a Palestinian. (applause) I learned about the Palestinian struggle through
the Black Panther Party newspaper as did many other people. And ever since
then, we’ve always had a very strong connection to the Palestinian movement.
So we’re going to bring her up at some point. We also have -- also in the, I forgot
to mention that also in the Bay Area, the Black Panther Party had began very
early to have coalitions in the Asian community. The Red Guard in the Chinese
community, as well, so we’re going to be bringing up Harvey. Harvey, you want
to stand? (applause) [00:05:00] He was with the Asian American Political
Alliance and that was very early on when the Black Panther Party began with that
coalition. But we’re going to go ahead and get started on the Rainbow Coalition
panel. First of all, I’m going to have everybody introduce themselves, say a little
bit about themselves, how they got involved in their political organizations, and a
little bit about themselves, and then we’ll move forward. We’ll start with Cha-
2
�Cha.
JOSE JIMENEZ:
Okay, so I was born in Puerto Rico. We came with the Great
Migration in the late ’40s and ’50 to Chicago. New York already had a large
Puerto Rican community. [00:06:00] But at that time, the Midwest was beginning
to develop. So our main issue, our main question at that time as families were
that our parents were more like pilgrims and that and they were just trying to get
the church service in Spanish, in English, basically. So they were not political at
all or anything like that and the youth, because there was no one looking out for
us or trying to figure out programs for us, got involved with gangs and that. So
we got involved with urban street gangs like any other city and that. And so got
into a gang epidemic, things got a little bad. But the people, the families, they
developed a community through the churches and that and they even started
working with the youth, with the gangs and that. So we learned a lot of
organizing from them. What happened is that Mayor Daley in 1955 when he
came to office, [00:07:00] he wanted back the cities. The White Flight had gone
to the suburbs and he wanted to bring them back in to increase the tax dollars
and to basically take over the lakefront and the downtown areas of Chicago. But
we happened to be in the way, with the Great Black Migration, the Native
American community was being pushed out of the reservations and that. The
poor white, the hillbillies were there in the community. Even some of the white
ethnic gangs were there. So they went, we were in the way and they were, the
working-class people were being kicked out to the suburbs but to the poor areas.
You know, it was the segregation. It was the segregation was basically at that
3
�time. That’s the way we got to look at it because we call it sweet terms today like
gentrification and it’s segregation. If we see it that way, then we can see a way to
fight it back because we have a long, a precedent. The civil rights movement
was [00:08:00] fighting segregation and all that. So we have a way to fight them
back if we look at that. But I’m going to keep it short because this is an
introduction. (laughter) So anyway, in the late ’60s, everything was happening in
Lincoln Park. That’s where you had the Democratic Convention. We were there
in the street corner just hanging out watching our neighborhood getting evicted.
And I went to jail at that time from the gang, usually getting involved with
substance abuse. So I got involved with that, wanted to clean up, wanted to go
to confession, and this is a Young Lord from New York right here, all right?
(laugher) But anyway, we set up, we followed the Black Panther Party at that
time. We learned from the Panthers and that and we set up the same thing in
our community. Chairman Fred Hampton became friends with us. We had taken
over this police station nonviolently. We went in there (laughter) [00:09:00] but
we basically went in and took a couple busloads to the police station. And inside
there, we put our purple berets on and we bicycle chained the doors so the
commander couldn’t leave and the reporters were inside. Anyway, the next day
was February 12th. The next day, Chairman Fred Hampton read about us and he
came back and he said, “I want to help you guys because you’re going to get
killed.” (laughter) So we didn’t realize what we had done; we just thought it was
a protest and that. But that’s how we met Chairman Fred Hampton who took us
under his wings. He taught us about -- I had already learned a little bit about the
4
�Party and that so he gave us the skills that we needed to come right out of the
gang. But we came right out of the gang and we started organizing. We did
occupations at first and then we did demonstrations and we [00:10:00] united the
community. We spread to 27 cities. A lot of people are more familiar with the
New York Chapter but it started in Chicago and that. But anyway, that’s a good
introduction?
AD:
That’s great. Thank you. (applause)
STAN MCKINNEY: Good afternoon, my name is Stan McKinney. I’m a former member
of the Illinois Chapter of the Black Panther Party. I don’t know if there’s some
other party members here. (applause) First of all, I’m honored to be a part of the
panel here with all the other courageous comrades. I wanted to point out
something to the audience and I’d like for you guys to participate in just a
moment of silence. Mrs. Iberia Hampton passed away which was the mother
[00:11:00] of Fred Hampton just Thursday, 94 years old. So Chairman Fred
Hampton, Jr. who I work with closely asked me to do that so we want to give a
moment of silence and condolences for the Hampton family. (pause) Thank you.
Basically, I was the last Illinois Chapter party member that concluded the Illinois
branch of the Black Panther Party. I worked with the party, I joined in 1969, I
probably was about 16, 17 years old. And I think when I left from Oakland
California, it was probably about ’76 so that was my tender [00:12:00] in the
party. (applause)
HY THURMAN:
I’m Hy Thurman, I’m one of the cofounders of the Young Patriots
and also the original Rainbow Coalition. (applause) How I got involved was I had
5
�migrated to Chicago from a small town in Tennessee to find a job and try to get
away from some of the pverty that was in the area. It was a small town and
about agriculture. But I started to work and I say this to catch-up but I started
work when I was three years old in the field [00:13:00] working with my mother
and my other siblings. We were raised in a single-parent home, extremely poor.
And I remember my mother and my older sister only had one pair of shoes and
they would split that pair of shoes. My sister would come home from school and
my mother would take them and go to whatever she had to do. So we were, we
would go to work in the fields working all day long and then pool our money to
eat. And there were times when it was very primitive, we would actually have to
hunt our food. But that’s the way it was back then. This was through the ’50s. It
was very little, there are actually very few services [00:14:00] to help anybody
and (clears throat) excuse me. In my hometown, if you were poor, you were
victimized. And you were victimized by the police, you were victimized by the
agencies, and you were considered to be pretty much white trash. We grew up
through that. So when it came time for me to leave, I left when I was 17, I went
to Chicago and pretty green. There are some of my old friends back there now
that knew me and I’m forever grateful to their help. And when I got to Chicago, I
thought it would be different but it wasn’t. It was a slum. Uptown was a slum.
The police were very brutal. The slum landlords were just vicious and they would
never [00:15:00] fix up their buildings. People were actually freezing to death in
some of these buildings. I knew people that would have to put, warm up bricks
and put them at the foot of the bed so they could stay warm at night. Uptown
6
�was just a real impoverished area. I thought I was going to go into something
different but I didn’t. But anyway, about the, I’d been there about two weeks and
the cops stopped me. When they found out I had a southern accent, they
became very indifferent. Told me to go back home and - I won’t use the word but screw my mother and my dog and my pig and whatever we do down there.
And that’s the way we were treated and it didn’t change from there. So I had, my
older brother was there and he had been involved in the Peacemaker street gang
[00:16:00] but then he’d gotten involved with JOIN which was a Jobs Or Income
Now program out of Students for a Democratic Society. JOIN people were pretty
much responsible for giving us the ideology, political ideology that we could carry
on. That’s basically, there’s a lot more to the story but they ended up leading a
march on the police station in the era of police brutality. Peggy Terry who was,
Peggy Terry was a poor woman from Oklahoma who lived in the South. She ran
as vice president with Eldridge Cleaver so we were involved politically. A lot of
the programs as far as women’s programs were started, women’s liberation was
started there. But anyway, I got involved because of just the brutal poverty that
was [00:17:00] there and the brutality by the police. That’s how I got involved.
It’s a long story but -- (applause)
LENNY FOSTER:
(Navajo language) [00:17:12 - 00:17:51]. I want to say thank you
for your presence today and the invitation to be [00:18:00] part of this panel. I’m
very pleased to be part of such a historical occasion. I grew up in a sheep camp
in northern Arizona on the Navajo Reservation. English wasn’t a primary
language. My grandparents, my mother and my father, they all spoke the Navajo
7
�language so we were encouraged to learn who we are. Our culture, our heritage,
our language. I’m glad that I was raised in that manner. But they also
emphasized school, go to school. My dad used to say that because he went out
in the world from the sheep camp. In 1942, he enlisted in the United States
Marine Corps and they immediately took him because he was bilingual. They
made him a radio operator and he became known [00:19:00] as the Navajo Code
Talkers (applause) so because of the Spanish, my father emphasized education.
He wanted us to go to school, to have perfect attendance, not to miss any school
so that was my upbringing with the sheep camp and then moving into the small
community of Fort Defiance, Arizona. I went to a school, I became a good
student, a good athlete. And that was my ticket off the Reservation, out of what it
was, I learned, poverty. We didn’t have all the fine things that other people had.
I didn’t realize that until I went to college. While I was in college, I tried out for
the baseball team and I made the team, Arizona Western College, and I played
with some of the [00:20:00] best baseball prospects in the country. Several,
seven draft choices. So in my meetings and discussion with some of my
teammates, I realized I didn’t have any money. That was kind of a shame,
shaming, because all these other white guys, they had a lot of money. But I was
just as good as them. There was one profound moment in my life, that spring of
1968. I came in from practice, came into the dormitory. There was a big TV that
everybody watched in the dormitory. It was a very -- Dr. Martin Luther King and
Ralph Abernathy marching. They had a big delegation and right up front
[00:21:00] with him were some Indians, Native Americans, American Indian.
8
�Later, I found out that was a Fools Crow, Henry Crow Dog, Archie Fire. I always
wonder, I said, “I wonder who those Indians are?” And later, I -- because it made
me proud that they were marching, walking with Dr. Martin Luther King and Ralph
Abernathy. Then I also read about and learned Malcolm X, Frantz Fanon. This
is enlightening for me because remember, I’m just a res boy from Fort Defiance,
a sheep camp. And here I was learning about all these different movements.
Then I came across how the Black Panther Party marched into Sacramento,
California, with some arms but that was their right. But the white men freaked
out over that (laughing) [00:22:00] and they changed the law here in California.
You couldn’t do that anymore. (laughter) You can’t be bringing guns right into the
state capitol and I thought, “Wow, that really --” This was, I think it was 1968 and
’69. Then I came to a conference here at Laney College July 19th, 1969 that was
sponsored by the Black Panther Party. I was working for the Utah Migrant
Council. So we drove from Salt Lake City, came to this conference, and I seen
all the Black Panthers wearing their black leather jackets with the black beret,
making the fists and power to the people and down with the pigs. (laughter) Boy,
that was something so that was my awareness of learning. Then I went back to
the reservation later that summer and right about that time, Woodstock was
happening. The man had landed [00:23:00] on the moon, too, that same
weekend. (laughter) So everything, everything was coming down (laughter) and I
had to decipher all of this. Where did I fit into all of this? I transferred from
Arizona Western and went to Colorado State in Fort Collins. Of course, I tried
out for the team and my heart wasn’t in it anymore after what I seen. Laney
9
�College and just the movements that were going on. Bobby Kennedy was
assassinated, and Dr. Martin Luther King was assassinated. These things were
happening and so it had a profound effect on me. And when I was in Fort
Collins, I noticed there were no Indians on the campus and I started going down
to Denver, Colorado, to the Indian Center. That’s where they had the powwows
every weekend and I met Vernon Bellecourt [00:24:00] (applause) and Clyde
Bellecourt. They introduced me to Dennis Banks and Russell Means. So
(inaudible) people for this movement. (applause) It was called the American
Indian Movement -AUDIENCE: Yes.
LF:
-- and I joined the Denver AIM and I hitchhiked from Fort Collins later that year in
December during Christmas break. I hitchhiked from Fort Collins, Colorado,
through a snowstorm to San Francisco, Alcatraz Island. The Indians had landed.
(applause) So that was my introduction, all of that. And here I am today and I’d
like to ask the panel for their support regarding an issue that really irritates me
and others, this mascot issue.
AUDIENCE: Right on! (applause)
LF:
The cartoon, the cartoon characters, Cleveland Indians. They have this big
buck-tooth [00:25:00] red face on their patches, on their arm and their caps.
They need to change that.
AUDIENCE: Yeah! (applause)
LF:
It’s humiliating for us. They say, “Oh, we’re doing this. We’re honoring you.”
(laughter) You’re not honoring us, it’s being very derogatory, disrespectful. I
10
�know the African Americans wouldn’t put up with that if they use names in their
cartoon characters. Because I remember at one time, I remember there was
Uncle Ben, Aunt Jamima. That changed, that changed.
AUDIENCE: Damn right. (laugher)
LF:
They got rid of it. (laughter) And the Chicanos, they were making fun of them
with their Speedy Gonzales and those kind of cartoon characters. That changed.
AUDIENCE: Right on.
LF:
Why is it that Indian people, we can’t change that? (applause) They continue to
pollute our land, leave us here, threatening to put oil [00:26:00] into our water.
Digging up sacred sites, cemetaries, and saying that they’re doing it for the
economy of America. That’s not right. So at this time, these are some concerns
that we have and I’m representing them and I’d like to ask the panel for their
support to abolish. Abolish those cartoon characters and those names. We don’t
want Red Skins and Chiefs and Warriors and stuff like that. That’s not honoring
us. Think about it, think about it real deep. Would you like to be called that?
Would you like your grandkids, that kind of legacy? No, that’s humiliating,
humiliating and derogatory. So I’m asking your compassion and support to
abolish that. You can do it and I know that the Black Panther Party has that
legacy; [00:27:00] they stand up to the man. So we want your help and we stand
with you. Thank you for allowing me to be part of your prestigious conference
and historic event and to meet such distinguished gentlemen that have been in
the movement for years and years. I always say I’m not a leader, I’m not a chief,
I’m a dog soldier. (applause) I’m a dog soldier who picks his flag and his stick,
11
�who just puts it into the ground and doesn’t retrieve. He stands there and makes
his fight there. That’s what a dog soldier, he fights -AUDIENCE: Right on! (applause)
LF:
Thank you again, man, for the education. That’s all I want to say at this time.
Thank you again. (applause)
AD:
Thank you, Lenny. (applause) Okay, [00:28:00] I think now I want to bring up the
other three panelists, Sister Abdulhadi (applause) and Pam (applause)
(inaudible) and Harvey. (applause)
AUDIENCE: All right!
AD:
Okay. I just thought since everybody was giving a little biography, we should also
include the other members of the panel. (inaudible) going to start with Dr.
Abdulhadi.
RABAB ABDULHADI:
As-salaamu alaykum.
AUDIENCE: Alaykum salaam.
RA:
[00:29:00] Good afternoon. I first begin by honoring the people whose land I
convene today.
AUDIENCE: Right on. (snapping)
RA:
And I send greetings to people in Standing Rock, in Charlotte, in the streets of
Hebron, in the streets of Gaza, in the streets of Jerusalem, in the Philippines, in
Puerto Rico, in Haiti and elsewhere where people are struggling for their justice
(inaudible). (applause) I also want to honor the memories of the martyrs from
Michael Brown to Mohammed Abu Khdeir. For people who do not know,
Mohammed Abu Khdeir was the young Palestinian killed who was kidnapped by
12
�Israeli settlers made to drink petrol and set on, burned alive. He was lynched in
Jerusalem around, in the summer of 2014. And I want to say that actually, some
people think that that’s the time when our people came together. But sometimes,
the history and the [00:30:00] memories tend to be short because there is the
intention in this country to actually have people not remember the histories of our
people, the legacies, the struggles that people go back long, long time. So this is
something that -- and I also honor the martyrs who are here from this movement
here, from Joe Jackson to the people whose stories we were told yesterday to. I
will offer condolences to the Hampton family. And I know knowing, hearing from
Palestinian mothers how hard it is. Mothers always say they should never bury
their children. They should never bury their children. They shouldn’t outlive their
children. And this is our legacy, this is our struggle, this is what we have. So I
will just say a couple of things about I grew up under Israeli occupation so I’ve
experienced nothing but Israeli occupation. I’ve seen the Palestinian people,
almost over a million people, displaced [00:31:00] and this was before my time in
1948 when Israel was founded. Actually, next year will be the 70th anniversary of
the foundation and the Nakba. I’ve lived under occupation and I remember
seeing Israeli soldiers all the time. The difference, and people talk about police
brutality and the difference between the Israeli soldiers and people know that in
our communities, and I was a young girl going to school in the morning. We
used to have young boys harassing us, making comments and so on. But the
difference between having young Palestinian boys harass us and young Israeli
soldiers harass us is that with Palestinian boys, you could call on your father, you
13
�could call on your mother, you could call on your brother, and then go talk to
them and they’ll stop. They’ll cut it out, they’ll cut it out. But with Israeli soldiers,
you couldn’t do that. Because the only way you would do that is because you
would have to call on your elders to come in and then risk their lives so you are in
a dilemma of what you want to do. This has continued until, [00:32:00] it has
continued until Palestinians waged their resistance. So whenever there isn’t
resistance, you are supposed to stand and let them have the public space and
this is exactly what’s happening here today. In terms of our, and I’ve had
members of my family go to prison and imprisoned like all Palestinians. Actually,
we have, one in four Palestinians have spent time in prison at one time or
another. In this past March and yesterday, somebody made a shout out to the
prisoner delegation. We went together to Palestine in March. Some of the
people may be here, brother Andrew Douglas, brother Hank Jones. This is from
the Panthers and the many others. It was 19 of us on the delegation and there
were four former political prisoners from the United States. The ways in which
Palestinians embraced the sisters and brothers who were coming from here, it
was a recognition and identification with delegacies of the struggle. [00:33:00]
When I was growing up, I do remember a couple of things about the Black
Panthers. One is I remember something now about the Black Panthers but
inspired by the Black Panthers and the Black Power movement, Muhammad Ali,
Muhummad Ali “Cly.” My mother used to always say Muhammad Ali “Cly.” She
never said Muhammad Ali “Clay.” Why? Because this is the way they pronounce
it in the papers. (laughter) This was a very, this was a very big support for
14
�Muhammad Ali because he actually stood up to the United States and refused to
serve in Vietnam. This was a source of pride for people in Palestine and the
Arab world throughout the Muslim world. The other person was Angela Davis.
AUDIENCE: Yes. (applause)
RA:
And I remember that (applause) -- yes. Angela Davis and I’ve actually told her
this because we were on the delegation to Palestine in 2011 that I organized
(inaudible). I remember my mother looking at the picture and she’s saying,
“She’s framed. She’s framed.” Actually, at the time, my father would say, “Why
do you think she is framed? Well, let’s hear what is [00:34:00] going on.” And
yes, of course, there is racism in the US. She said, “Well, she’s Black. Of course
she’s framed.” (laughter) It was the immediate recognition that there was
something that was and I want to just bring it back to because I don’t want to take
too much time in the introduction but I want to bring it back to the present, by
mentioning two other experiences of solidarities among our people. One is that
when Angela Davis came to Palestine, on the morning of the first day when we
were there and we were hosted by Palestinians from different walks of life,
political prisoners and activists and so on, she got up to introduce herself and
she said -- and we didn’t know that. People didn’t -- she said one of the things
that has sustained her the most when she was in imprisonment in the United
States for 18 months was a letter she received from Palestinian prisoners.
Palestinian prisoners wrote a letter, smuggled it through the waters and the seas,
all the way to the United States that was smuggled to Angela Davis in prison to
tell [00:35:00] her we are in solidarity with you. We were in Palestine, we were in
15
�Jerusalem, and we were visiting four Palestinian Leadership Council members
were being expelled by the Israelis from Jerusalem to another parts of Palestine.
One of the people who was meeting us was a man by the name of Yakoub Odeh.
Yakoub Odeh was a very well-known, and he’s still a very well-known,
Palestinian leader, former prisoner, spent 17 years in prison. Now, there is a film
actually, about him and his village called The Ruins of Lifta. I recommend it. And
Yakoub, when Angela comes down, he says to her, “So Angela, the letter was
helpful to you?” He was one of the people who wrote. He was one of the
leaders of the prison movement who wrote the letter that was drafted to Angela
there. Yakoub Odeh was also one of the people who welcome our delegation,
prisoner delegation, this past March to Palestine. One of the first things that he
shared with us was he told us how he was meeting with this Jewish woman
[00:36:00] who was a Holocaust survivor. When she exposed her arm, she said
to him, “You see, these are the tattoos that I have.” She showed him where the
Nazis had sealed her hand. He said to her, “I want to show you my tattoo.” He
put his head down and his head is all broken and this was one of the results of
the torture that he incurred in the Israeli prisons. This was a sign of the way he
was talking about humanity and how it is that people who are experiencing
indignations here, feelings, genocide. Experiencing violations of their rights need
to come together and express solidarity with each other. The last thing I would, I
want to mention is that during our delegation, one of the things our sisters and
brothers did from here, from the delegation is they put together a pamphlet that
has statements from US prisoners, political prisoners, like Herman Bell [00:37:00]
16
�and like Mumia Abu-Jamal - all solidarity to Palestinian prisoners. They put
together a pamphlet and somebody drew a picture of one of the (inaudible) or the
some of you know about her in Chicago that she is struggling day in and day out.
And we call, we email people in Palestine telling them can you print the pamphlet
because we are worried about bringing in, crossing the border, the Israelis will
stop us. We don’t know what’s going to happen. They said we’re not going to
print it -- and this is, mind you, and this is really important. Because when you
represent, you introduced me as professor and yes, I am a professor at San
Francisco State. I’m proud of being at San Francisco State, the home of 1968
strike where the Black Student Union led by the Panthers (applause) (inaudible)
after united struggle. So we are not talking about just any regular school. We’re
talking about the place where the academy actually comes together to engage in
critical pedagogy in order to change the world. This is what the job that we
(applause) -AUDIENCE: Right on!
RA:
-- so what happens, yes. So what happens is [00:38:00] we were doing a
conference with Birzeit University Institute for Women’s Studies. If people think
that women’s struggles and women’s gender studies and so on is irrelevant, you
need to go and look at the Institute for Women’s Studies at Birzeit University in
Palestine. We put together a conference on settler colonialism, racism, prisoner
solidarity, and the sisters at Birzeit University printed, not only printed the
pamphlet. They translated it to Arabic in order to make it available to the
Palestinian prisoners so they can read so they know what their sisters and
17
�brothers in US jails who are incarcerated have to say in expressing their
solidarity. We were at that conference the last time at the [four rings?] and one of
our sisters, Johanna Fernandez, who is part of the Mumia Abu-Jamal Defense
Committee, she says I have a call. Mumia Abu-Jamal called from his prison,
from his prison to Palestine to wish and express solidarity with the Palestinians.
[00:39:00] This is what solidarity is all about. This is why -AUDIENCE: Yeah.
RA:
-- the 50th anniversary of the Panthers is really important, (applause) this is why
I’m very inspired to be part of this movement of (applause; inaudible) [00:39:07 00:39:25]
AUDIENCE: Oh yeah, right on! (applause)
RA:
-- to learn from our histories and our solidarities in order for us to chart a different
path towards the justice and the freedom of our people and we will prevail.
Thank you.
AUDIENCE: All right! (applause)
AD:
Okay, Harvey. (laughter)
PROFESSOR HARVEY:
It’s a challenge for me to follow (laughter) [00:40:00] but I
can connect because the struggle still continues. I’m a lecturer at UC Berkeley
(applause) and one of the big fights that we’ve had recently was that there was
an experimental decal class that taught about Palestine. The settler colonialist
theories, right? Outside pressures forced the university to suspend this class
and there was a long period of silence. The students were intimidated, they
didn’t know what to do. And myself, as a lecturer, was in touch with other
18
�lecturers about how come there’s so much silence. So we felt that maybe we
should do something. So what we did was we were involved in a petition drive,
we were involved [00:41:00] in contacting other people, and the class got put
back on, okay? (applause) But they had to -- so it shows that if you’re silent,
things will get worse. We have to learn from this legacy of the Black Panther
movement. When I was active in the ’60s, we always tried to look to the past and
we couldn’t really find a whole lot. We didn’t know too much about the labor
movement. We looked towards revolutions going on but for this generation, we
have the legacy of the Black Panther Party as part of our DNA. It’s part of us
now. Because I remember before, I used to look at it in terms of struggle for my
people, Asian people, and all this stuff. But the Panthers taught us hey, the
people is all of us, all different nationalities. (applause) That’s what Rainbow
[00:42:00] Coalition is all about and understand that that’s why Panthers who
believed that lost their lives because they believed in this. So it’s a very serious
thing about coalition and solidarity where people paid for it with their lives and we
have to not let that go. Myself, I’m a second-generation Chinese American and
we, that’s a generation that, whose families went through exclusion, all kinds of
racism, discrimination. Our families would just kind of suck it in and then our
generation was upset abut that. Hey, why can’t it be discussed? What
happened, you know, the racism? Then you extend it further, how can we form
solidarity [00:43:00] with others who suffer from racism, colonialism, imperialism,
and whatever, okay? So I was actually in the military program at UC Berkeley,
ROTC program. Because of my self-study, I turned against the war and I joined
19
�the Stop the Draft Week movement. And at this Stop the Draft Week movement,
there was an alliance with the Black Panther Party so I began to feel a
connection with the politics of the Black Panther Party. Because the Stop the
Draft movement focused largely on the war itself but the Panthers dealt with the
issues not just of war but also of racism. So I started going to different Panther
activities. There was actually a call for students to go down the Panther office
because they heard it was going to be raided. I went down there [00:44:00] with
classmates with our textbooks. We’d be studying for our midterms and helping
prevent a raid. (laughter) Wonderful combination. Soon, I joined the AAPA, the
Asian American Political Alliance at UC Berkeley, and became friends with a Mr.
Richard Aoki (applause) who was a founding member of the Black Panther Party,
okay? So that was a very wonderful time. AAPA, Richard Aoti, connecting with
the Panthers. Some of us even went to an anti-war conference in Montreal,
okay? So if you look at the history of this period, you might come across on the
internet a couple of Asian faces, AAPA members, holding [00:45:00] signs that
say yellow peril supports black power. (laughter) Free Huey. (laughter)
AUDIENCE: Right on! (applause)
PH:
Free Huey. So following that, this whole Panther movement became part of our
DNA. I was also involved in the Third War Strike at UC Berkeley. Then later, I
continued doing community work, Asian Community Center, especially involving
the fight to save the [I-Hotel?]. Again, the Panther connection would be serve the
people, heart and soul, serve the people programs. So I think you could say for
every Asian American political organization that was formed during that time, if
20
�you look at their programs, you would see some type of connection with the
Black Panther Ten-Point Program. I think there was organizations, I Wor Kuen,
Panthers helped start Red Guard, [00:46:00] there was LLC organization. All
these organizations, you could see lineage, connection, very much so with the
Black Panthers, okay? So for that, I’m really glad to be on this panel. (applause)
AD:
You done good. (laughter)
PAM TAU LEE:
Hi everybody. My name is Pam Tau Lee. I’m a former member of
the I Wor Kuen and I’m very honored to be here on this panel with you and I’m
very honored to be a part of the legacy of the Black Panthers. What I want to talk
about today, a little bit about myself is I’m a third-generation Chinese. I have a
great-grandfather who I understand left because of [00:47:00] colonization in
China. Left to become a laborer to help build the Panama Canal but he never
returned home. We don’t know why. But these kinds of stories and experiences
around colonization but I didn’t really understand about colonization until 1969
when the Black Panthers came to San Francisco Chinatown. And I’m Chinese.
He’s Chinese. Chinatown is Chinese. But it took Bobby Seale and the Black
Panthers to bring this book. (applause) This book was, Bobby Seale led study
groups on Jackson Street in a pool hall with us and the legacy [00:48:00] of that,
of those study groups that we had a lot of them. But the legacy of the study
group began the journey for somebody like me back in 1969 to be here today.
That journey where the transformation that a book in the words like this and the
Ten-Point Program of the Black Panthers transformed people internally and
externally. So for me, the whole experience of colonization and that growing up
21
�in Chinatown with the whole thing around assimilation and accepting white
supremacy. When I got to college and the movement around national
independence struggles around the world and the work of the Panthers, the
programs that they were instituting, [00:49:00], this was an awakening. It was a
moment in which people like myself found their full humanity. The impact of
internalized oppression runs so deep and I feel that because of the Black
Panther Party and the Ten-Point Program and the Serve the People programs
and the practice in terms of serve the people, love the people, have the faith in
the people. That it was real things that you could see. So in Chinatown, the Red
Guard and many of you have the program of the Red Guard in front of you. They
started breakfast programs and other kinds of things in terms of childcare. They
stood up [00:50:00] to the Right-wing in Chinatown. One of the things that the
Black Panthers helped us understand was class, the importance of class
struggle. (applause) So in Chinese communities, we have class. Those people
who owned the sweatshops and people like my grandmother who worked in the
sweatshops. Those landlords who owned those apartments, those single-room
occupancies in which I spent a lot of my life and those people who lived in those
single-room occupancy sharing toilets, sharing a kitchen, having tuberculosis,
having mental illness, all of these kinds of conditions. But how understanding an
analysis. Being able to analyze the conditions locally, nationally, internationally.
The Black Panther Party helped us do that. (applause) [00:51:00] The other
thing was the concept of internationalism and solidarity. Richard Aoki, man, my
brother. We’re not giving him up. (cheers) He’s ours! Richard is ours. One of
22
�the things around Richard that really instilled in us was the concept of
internationalism and solidarity and working out of your communities, crosscommunities. So that is in terms of the legacy of the Panthers, the importance of
that. I just want to have two things to end is there is the Ten-Point Program that
we studied and the Red Guard people. I was not a Red Guard, but the Red
Guard studied and adopted. But I want to draw your attention to one more thing
that the Red Guard added as a principle to the Ten-Point Program is 11
[00:52:00] points. (laughter) And 11, point 11 reads, “We demand that the United
States government halt the rape of the land. We believe that if greedy
businessmen with the help of the US government do not stop destroying our
land,” I can’t read because this is, I’m 86 years old and okay. Okay, it says, “Air
does not destroy our land. The air, the water, and the streams of the earth will
become a lifeless planet of rock and dust.” That is principle 11 that was added -AUDIENCE: Right on! (applause)
PTL: -- to the Black Panthers. (applause) The legacy of this book and the Panthers in
terms of the I Wor Kuen, I want to share [00:53:00] in terms of what guides me as
a vision for the work that I did as a young person and I am 45 years later still a
revolutionary. (applause) There’s two more things that we added onto the I Wor
Kuen document is number, principle number four. Very important. “We want an
end to male chauvinism and sexual exploitation.”
AUDIENCE: Yes. (applause)
PTL: (inaudible) a patriarchy in our society. The last one that we added, point number
12, is we want a socialist society.
23
�AUDIENCE: Yes. (applause)
PTL: Each according to their ability, to each according to their need.
AUDIENCE: Yes. (applause)
AD:
Thank you, thank you.
PTL: (inaudible) is that [00:54:00] the legacy lives on today. I want to be able to bring
you -- I’m affiliated with Asians for Black Lives.
AUDIENCE: Right on. (applause)
PTL: One of the things that Asians for Black Lives that Ricard taught us and we
embrace today is the study of the movement platform, the platform for the
movement of Black Lives. (applause) The second thing in terms of the legacy of
the Black Panthers is solidarity. Myself from the streets of Chinatown to the
camps of Standing Rock, we’ve just returned from Standing Rock in solidarity
with them. (applause)
AD:
Okay, this is what all power to the people is about, okay?
AUDIENCE: That’s right.
AD:
The Black Panther said all power to the people.
AUDIENCE: All power to the people. (applause) (snapping)
AD:
Thank you. So now, I would like [00:55:00] to ask Hy and Cha-Cha and Stan
how did the Rainbow Coalition in Chicago begin? How did it get started? Who
wants to go first? Stan?
SM:
Well first, I think I would like to give some history in terms of the Rainbow
Coalition. First of all, Chairman Fred was a very charismatic brother. He was so
dynamic and charismatic, this is… his death, his blood that was spilled actually
24
�opened the doors for the Black Panther Party to sue the government. It busted
loose. It opened up the doors for COINTELPRO. I mean, we had other cases
but we were able to link the government when William O’Neal testified in that
courtroom that he was paid [00:56:00] 125 dollars to put the Seconal in Fred’s
milk. One hundred and twenty-five dollars and a promise to be an FBI agent. He
supplied the floor plans, he poisoned Fred, he collaborated with the government
to set this whole thing up. That was our proof. That was our proof that
connected Illinois Bureau of Investigation all the way to DC, okay? So the FBI in
Illinois tried to denounce their relationship with DC, DC tried to blame it on CPD
which is Chicago Police Department, Chicago police -- and all of them put it onto
the state’s attorney’s office. [00:57:00] States’ attorneys, basically they’re paper
pushers. They go out and serve notices. Never before in the history of the
state’s attorney’s office being used as a puppet to send 14, 14 of their lackeys in
at 4:00 in the morning in a AT&T truck -AUDIENCE: Yes.
SM:
-- to murder. The target was Fred Hampton.
AUDIENCE: That’s right, tell ’em.
SM:
Okay? The target was Fred Hampton. Even down to the point where the pig that
testified, Gloves Davis, a Black, fascist pig --
AUDIENCE: That’s right.
SM:
-- went into that room and said, “I shot him in his head. He’s good as he’s dead.”
Okay? I mean, he’s reporting to the masters. “I’ve shot him in his head, he’s
good as he’s dead.” Deborah Johnson, Akua Njeri, Deborah was in the bed
25
�pregnant with Fred, Jr. at that time. [00:58:00] So these base, these
reactionaries came in with no compassion. This is a pregnant woman and they
machine-gunned this place, okay? This was one of them St. Valentine’s Day
massacre deals. They came in and the target was to kill Fred. Mark Clark was
sitting on the door, he was a defense captain from Peoria, Illinois. Mark really
didn’t know a lot of folk. He was on security. So when the pigs came to the door,
they gave a fictitious name so Mark said who? Automatically, they shot right
through the door, striking Mark, killing Mark. Striking him right in his heart, killing
him and simultaneously kicking in the back door, coming in on a brutal searchand-destroy mission in particular was Fred Hampton who they knew. They knew
from their informant that they had placed in that apartment that [00:59:00] exactly
where Fred would be laying his head and that he had been drugged, okay? The
coroner said there was enough Seconal in his, in this man’s drink to kill a horse.
So moving forward from December 4th of 1969, the dynamics and the charisma -I want to take you back a little bit. This is something that just came to me. There
was an incident. There was an incident where the Chairman had went to meet
Jeff Fort. Jeff Fort was the leader of the Blackstone Rangers. There was a
church on the South Side that they had basically took siege over. It was like a
headquarters. Chairman had took a group of us Panthers there. Clearly, when
we walked into that church, we were outnumbered and outgunned. But
[01:00:00] you could tell from the charisma of the Chairman that it engulfed these
brothers and they had much respect. I mean, I was shaking. We walked out of
there. We were outgunned, outnumbered, but the Chairman got his point across.
26
�What that had to deal with was that we had that breakfast program in the CabriniGreen Projects which was on the North side of Chicago. The Cobra Stones, we
were trying to feed hungry children. The Cobra Stones were paid to get on top of
the housing projects and machine gun at the children coming to the breakfast
program. So this precipitated the meeting but they were paid by the daily
administration to stop the breakfast program just like with the medical center.
The FBI told the Vice Lords, a Chicago street gang, we’ll let you sell [01:01:00]
as many drugs, as much drugs as you want to sell. Just don’t let the Black
Panther Party open that medical center. Well, it opened.
AUDIENCE: All right.
SM:
It opened.
AUDIENCE: (applause)
SM:
We had to take matters in our own hands but it opened. So moving forward, in
terms of the Rainbow, the same charisma that the Chairman walked into that
church and diffused that situation with the Blackstone Rangers that Fred,
Chairman Fred, was able to organize. He was able to take groups along with, as
Cha-Cha said. They started out initially as a gang and came over. Hy Thurman
with the Young Patriots. So the charisma. But when J. Edgar Hoover made that
statement that the Panthers were the greatest threat to the internal security of
this country, Fred was on the hit list. He was one of the many on the hit list. In
terms of organizing and developing the coalitions, [01:02:00] of the many people
that we developed, the many groups that we developed solidarity. Because you
guys don’t realize this but the party was under attack. I mean, there was 38
27
�Panthers that was killed through the whole course but we were constantly being
hauled off to jail. One of the main torture tactics that the pigs would use when
they would bring Panthers in was tactics that were employed from Vietnam.
They would take us in and handcuff us and take toothpicks and stick them under
our fingernails, okay? You guys heard about [John Burrage?]. Well, John
Burrage’s been doing this thing. He didn’t just start doing that before. John
Burrage was a part of the Red Squad, a group of racist dog police bring you into
the police station and slam your fingers into the medicine, file, I mean file
cabinets. You know, hey, so they didn’t want you to sell the Panther paper. They
were so [01:03:00] intimidated by the organizing and the coming together in
solidarity of various groups because we believed that -- and that was the thing
that differentiated us from other organizations is that we believed in the
international revolution, okay? We wasn’t locked into the whole cultural
nationalist scene. We believed in the people’s struggle, the people’s alliance, the
people’s movement and that’s what the Black Panther Party was about. The
coming together of that Rainbow Coalition was devastating. It dealt a blow in
addition, in addition to the many other programs. The many other programs that
the Black Panther Party initiated. The Breakfast for Children program, even
sickle cell, sickle cell anemia. We exposed that to the government. The
government wasn’t even dealing with that. We took a school bus [01:04:00] and
turned it into a laboratory and we went around testing. Testing children for sickle
cell anemia throughout this country. Same thing with the bussing program. We
took a Greyhound bus and put a Panther on it and turned it into a bussing the
28
�prisoner program. (laughter) So these programs -- and it heightened the
contradiction because many loved ones, many people with loved ones that were
in prison, they couldn’t get to these institutions so these reactionaries were able
to kind of do their treachery in the dark. We exposed that. All we asked people
to do was donate. The program was free, free, free. So we had a love for the
people and I think the Rainbow Coalition was just an example. But Fred being
the charismatic young brother that he was, he was, a bullet was put in his head.
He was only 21 years old. So -AD:
Excuse me, Stan.
SM:
Sure.
AD:
I know you have a lot more to tell us.
SM:
[01:05:00] Right on.
AD:
But we want to hear from, we want to move forward but thank you very much --
SM:
Right on.
AD:
-- for your company. (applause) Okay, I wanted to ask Cha-Cha if you want to
add anything to what led to the Coalition beginning in Chicago.
JJ:
Thank you very much. I even forgot I want to thank you and Elaine Brown for
bringing us out here. I forgot to mention this. I’m not trying to get any points.
(laughter) You know, again, like I said, we met Chairman Fred. We knew about
the Panthers in Oakland because we had gone to the Crusade for Justice
conference in Dever with Jorge Gonzales. We met in the Brown Berets and the
Black Berets from San [01:06:00] Jose and some of the gangs from Los Angeles.
Then we heard about Oakland and I came, I actually came out here for about a
29
�month to learn what was going on at that time. But we met Chairman Fred
Hampton after the police takeover workshop that we did, that we had. He, again,
he came to work with us at that time. Then around April is when the Rainbow
Coalition began and we got together. He asked us to get together with the Young
Patriots, another branch of the Panthers was the department was working with
the Young Patriots and that’s when we formed the original Rainbow Coalition. It
was a symbolic, it was like a federation. It wasn’t an organization. We knew
about the class struggle, the importance of the class struggle. The Sister was
saying that. But what Chairman Fred understood was [01:07:00] that we all
came from different nationalities and different communities. So we didn’t want to
be cultural nationalists and definitely the Black Panther Party was never a
cultural nationalist movement. But we wanted to recognize the fact that we have
to start where our people are at and our people are -- the Puerto Ricans, we
have two issues. We have the barrios in the United States but then we also have
the fact that we’re a colony, a direct colony of the United States. As you can see
when they’re talking about the fiscal control board. As you can see when they
have brother Oscar López Rivera in jail for almost 35 years and we need the
brother back out here. He’s been in jail longer than Nelson Mandela, brother
Nelson Mandela.
AUDIENCE: (inaudible)
JJ:
So we need to free Oscar Rivera and that. That’s part of our struggle. And in
fact, he’s from Lincoln Park, too, which is where the birthplace of the [01:08:00]
Young Lords originated. That’s where they came from. And in fact, when they
30
�got arrested in Evanston, I got arrested, too. I had to do another nine-month bit
at some kind of crazy charges they put on me. The reason I won the case was
because I had an amended trial. They said they were international
revolutionaries and I had just run for alderman. I said, I’m a citizen, I’m
demanding trial, and they had to let us go. The only reason I stayed the jail, we
couldn’t afford the bond. It was too high. But anyway, that Chairman Fred
Hampton and was targeted like Stan said. He was targeted. They wanted him.
He was their leader, our leader at that time. We recognized the Black Panther
Party as the vanguard organization. We knew that from the very beginning.
They were our role model, that Red Book that you’re talking about, [01:09:00]
unite the many to defeat the few was a concept that we used in terms of the
Rainbow Coalition. So he wanted us to -- what he basically said was don’t hang
on to our coattails; go out and organize our community. It’s a job that we have to
do that we’re all responsible to. So that’s what the Rainbow Coalition meant to
us. And that’s what we did as young boys. We went and organized 27 chapters
nationwide. Then we come together in unity with all of the other movements. He
taught us about internationalism, about the movement that was going on on
Palestine and all over the world. We learned that, we used that little Red Book
because again, we came right from the gang into a movement. We didn’t study
for nine months for training. We were on the street corner and the next day we
were occupying McCormick Theological Seminary. You just mentioned the Cobra
Stones.
SM:
Yeah.
31
�JJ:
The Cobra Stones, [01:10:00] when we occupied the seminary, we had about
350 people. A few of us occupied it for bicycle chains but we didn’t even have
cars in Chicago. Some of our members rode bikes. So we used the bicycle
chains to close the -- you know, we’re talking about a university. I forgot to tell
you I’m in the middle of two professors here and I got (laughter) (inaudible). I’m
a non-traditional student, I’m (inaudible). (laughter) So I got some homework, I
just remembered. I can do it on the internet on Wiki -- I’m serious. (laughter) But
--
AUDIENCE: Right?
JJ:
-- so I have respect. I have respect especially for revolutionaries. Thank you
very much. I appreciate that. But the Cobra Stones, they came to McCormick
Theological Seminary and they came with their guns and everything and they
want [01:11:00] to come in. We tried to be non-violent but we didn’t take the
seminary. We had some weapons. We disarmed them and said put the
weapons in the car and you can come in because we’re not -- we want you to
come in. We’re trying to work with you. We want you to come in. So I didn’t
know about that connection. But they told us themselves the police paid us to
come in and take it over from you. So that’s kind of strange that I learned that
today. But anyway, so that was a job but the revolution is a job and somebody’s
got to do the job. The Rainbow Coalition is -- that’s our contract to do the job.
That’s really what, the way I see the Rainbow Coalition and Chairman Fred was
able to unite all of us to relate to it as a human being from a community
standpoint. I’m going after this, my plane [01:12:00] ticket, I’m going right to the
32
�funeral of, to the wake of Mrs. Iberia Hampton. I didn’t know that my youngest
daughter who was trying to find out information about me because I had to go to
Michigan on a underground, whatever you want to call it at that time and I kind of
stayed there. I thought, “This is a good place. There’s no trouble here with the
police.” (laughter) So they said they kind of stayed there. But while I’m there
away from my family, my youngest daughter is, lives right down the street from
the Hamptons in Maplewood. She got to know Ms. Iberia Hampton pretty good; I
never knew her that well. Through her, I got to know Mrs. Iberia Hampton. I
knew Bill Hampton and through them, I got to know -- so it’s a family thing. In
fact, on one of her birthdays, I gave her a cake with the Puerto Rican flag on it.
(laughter) (inaudible) But anyway, so we had that family thing and we were there.
[01:13:00] I believe that Jeff has said that I was one of the pallbearers for Fred
Hampton when he died because he was trying to reach out to me. I’m a, it’s a
thing, it’s an honor. But I don’t want to take away from Chairman Fred Hampton
but we took, we occupied the People’s Church in Chicago and we held the
church for two years. Right away, the next day after we occupied the church, we
said you know what? The pastor was working with them, Reverend Bruce
Johnson, and he prevented a bloodbath. He told the police I, the congregation
wanted to put us in jail and the pastor said no, I gave them permission to be
there. They asked me at the press conference are you going to allow them to
have church service? You know, my family’s very religious. I’m going what are
you talking about? We’re, I’m going to be at church, too. We’re all going to be at
church. This is the People’s Church. [01:14:00] We worked with the
33
�congregation and I guess the system didn’t like that because two months before
Chairman Fred Hampton was killed, September 29th, Fred Hampton was killed
December 4th, they stabbed Reverend Johnson 19 times and his wife 9 times in
front of their children. That’s a cold case that hasn’t been solved that we are,
we’ve had several tours during that time to bring that out in terms of the Latino
struggle. They were, they were not Latinos. But they were from the United
Methodist Church, a regular church. They’re modern-day martyrs. We need to
bring it out and connect the dots because around that time, there were other
Panthers that were killed and arrested during that time. So it was a national
effort by the FBI COINTELPRO to destroy our movement, our Rainbow Coalition,
our united movement. [01:15:00] I’m honored to be bunking with Mr. Foster. I
appreciate that.
AUDIENCE: Right on! (applause)
AD:
Right on, hi. (applause) Cha-Cha, Cha-Cha. (applause) Unfortunately, we don’t
have a lot of time left and we want to try to get to some really important
questions. I’m going to ask Hy how the Patriot Party began and then I want to
ask Stan, as well, what was it about the Patriot Party that you guys decided to
make them part of the Coalition? We’ll start with Hy first.
HT:
Okay. Well, there’s really two separate organizations. The Young Patriots
started as an organization in Chicago. We were, we came all the way down from
a street gang being involved in JOIN and as I had mentioned before, being
involved in [01:16:00] the [Cleaver Terry Collections?] march on the police
station. But then there were some -- just to make a point. There was a Patriot
34
�Party and a Patriot organization. Bill Fesperman, Preacher man, left the Patriots
and started the Patriot Party. He wanted it to go national which was fine but
that’s something that we didn’t want to do in Chicago because we were
entrenched in the community and we wanted the revolution to work there first.
Somebody, Chuck Armsbury over here, he was a, he was a captain of the
Eugene, Oregon Chapter of the Patriot Party. One of the few that’s left. I’m one
of the few that’s left in the original Young Patriots so there’s not a lot of us
around. But we were kind of destroyed before [01:17:00] we even started hardly
and we were approached, we were approached by Fred or Bobby Lee. Anybody
that knows Bobby Lee -AUDIENCE: Oh, yeah. (applause)
HT:
-- I talked to him on a daily basis just about because he, Brother Bobby, he’s still
a revolutionary.
SM:
Oh, yeah.
HT:
He said he’s never a former anything; he is a Panther (applause) and he’ll always
be a Panther.
AUDIENCE: Right on! (applause)
HT:
What happened was we were at a community meeting. I believe it was in the
Lake View area of Chicago which is just south of Uptown. This particular
committee of people liked to invite people in to talk about who they are and we
were given a presentation. This was an all-white group and they came down on
us really hard. Now, we didn’t know [01:18:00] that Bobby Lee and some of the
other boys and some of the other Panthers would be there at that time so they
35
�came down on us pretty hard. We were trying, actually, what we were trying to
do was we were trying to get some funding to set up some survival programs
because we had been watching the Panthers and what they were doing. We as
an organization, had, we’d gotten a little bit more political. Now, we were
nowhere near as political as let’s say as the Panthers or the Lords because we
were the oppressor, basically. We were the white people from the South that
oppressed many. Everybody else, basically. But and I remember asking Fred
Hampton one time, “Why would you accept us into an organization, into the Black
Panthers in unity and equality?” He said, “I can, I can,” since we’re the
oppressor. I said, “We oppressed you all.” [01:19:00] He says, “Well, I can look
past that because I’m looking toward a revolution.” He said that it’s all a class
issue. It’s not a racist issue. We were running around with, some of them were
running around with a Confederate flag which was really a big point of
contention. (laughter) That was okay with the Panthers and that was okay with
the Lords. But it did cause us losing, everybody losing some membership
(laughter) because not everybody would agree with that. But we used that flag
and we explained why we used it was to go into the bars and to the places in
Chicago where there was a bunch of Southern people. Because at that time, if
you were [01:20:00] in Uptown, you knew that that flag was there but it was
invisible. It was there everywhere. And most of the people didn’t understand
what the hell the flag was, meant anyway. That it was a, it was a symbol of
slavocracy. Of a time where people were owner, owned. They were bought and
sold and treated and slaves. We started going in with a flag and also, we would,
36
�started attaching a Free Huey button (laughter) and it would cause a lot of talk.
(laughter)
AUDIENCE: Oh, yeah.
HT:
Wha we would do is we would get in the conversation about how, what is this,
what is this flag mean? Well, I mean if it worked for a while but (laughter) and we
[01:21:00] decided we’d give up on it after a while. (laughter) But it did have -and if you see some of the, some of the old pictures of the Panthers, we also
provided security for the Panthers. We would stand shoulder to shoulder with the
Panthers at any given rally. The one on fascism that was here, we did. We
would stand there and we would have the rebel flag on it. But then that would
really, really cause some conversations around the country. (laughter) But we
decided to abandon that after a while. (laughter) But we always studied the
Panthers, we respected them. We looked at their [01:22:00] Ten-Point Program
and we looked at their survival programs. That meeting that Bobby Lee was in --
AUDIENCE: Oh, yeah.
HT:
-- he stood up for us.
AUDIENCE: Yes.
HT:
As a matter of fact, I’ll put in a plug. We have a panel coming up right after this
over in lecture hall about how poor whites worked with the Black Panthers and
others. We’ll be showing a film strip of Bobby Lee in it, too.
PTL: Yes.
HT:
But what came out of that was the invitation to become part of the original
Rainbow Coalition and we learned a lot, man. We learned a lot from Fred and
37
�from Bobby Lee and others that were around. We learned a lot from the Young
Lords and I tell you, it was a life-changer for a lot of us. We at this point are
rebooting the Young Patriots. We have a couple of chapters now, one in
Chicago, [01:23:00] one in Huntsville, Alabama. We’re doing a lot of work around
racial issues in the South, the deep South, environmental issues and Chuck is
working out in the Pacific Northwest and trying to get some chapters started and
doing some work out there around the police brutality in some places. So we’re
back but to make a long story short, it’s life-changing for me. It’s probably one of
the best things that ever happened to me in my life was something like that, even
though the COINTELPRO destroyed us. The leadership. Urban renewal kicked
us out of the community but we’re still here. We’re back and we’re going to be,
we’re going to be here. I’m always a patriot.
AUDIENCE: Ha ha! (applause)
HT:
And I’ll always be a revolutionary. [01:24:00] (applause) We just, I just ask that
you join in with us and we’ll win the fight eventually.
AUDIENCE: All right.
SM:
Right on.
AUDIENCE: Right on! (applause)
HT:
Okay, thank you. Thank you, thank you.
AD:
We only have about 25, 20 minutes to go but we want to ask some questions
from the audience but I just wanted to ask a few more questions. (laughter) How
does this Coalition -- I’m going to just ask two questions and you guys can chime
in. But how did the Coalition actually work? I mean, you already told us how
38
�there were two separate organizations and we always told white people that they
had to go organize in their community. But I’m just kind of interested to know like
how did this actually [01:25:00] work, this Coalition? And what are some of the
brightest moments that you could remember about this Coalition?
JJ:
The Coalition worked because every event that we had, we supported each
other. There was no competition like there is today and that competition really
comes from COINTELPRO. So that was a way of -- if there was a
demonstration, every day was like going to a party, like hanging out. Like being
part of a family, okay? The Panthers were having events, were there’s going to
be some Young Lords and Young Patriots there and vice versa. So that’s the
way it works. And again, that was a respect. We all knew about the class
struggle. We would advance, vanguard, whatever you want to call us, but we
had to, we had, [01:26:00] it was the people’s revolution. We can’t make a
revolution without the people.
AUDIENCE: Right on.
JJ:
So like Hy, brother Hy was saying they had the rebel flag. But you know, these
were courageous people. They went into those bars where nobody else is going
to them bars today to work with those people. And to work with their people. We
had prejudice. We had prejudice in our community. My mother thought I was
going to be a lawyer because I was a little light-skinned (laughter) so we, so you
know, we know about prejudice. So we had to -- instead of a lawyer, I was on the
other side. I was in jail. In jail university. (laughter)
AD:
Yes, sir. (laughter)
39
�JJ:
But anyway, so that, we were --
HT:
Well I just want to interject something about Cha-Cha is any time we wanted to
find him, we just called the county jail and there he was. [01:27:00] (laughter)
SM:
Stan, yeah. One of Chairman Fred’s saying was that you don’t fight racism with
racism; You fight it with revolutionary solidarity. I think, I think (applause) the
examples, I think the example of all the testimonial up here. So when you hear
this myth about the Panthers was this racist group, no. That’s not true. That’s
not true and the proof is in the pudding right here.
AUDIENCE: That’s right! Understand.
SM:
The proof is in the pudding. Often imitated, never duplicated. (applause)
AUDIENCE: Right on! (applause)
AD:
Okay, Sister Abdulhadi wanted to say something and then we’ll go to you,
Harvey.
RA:
Yeah. I actually when you were speaking, I was thinking about, and [01:28:00] I
was thinking before what were the things that were happening at that particular
moment that different groups were dealing with? So this is something that I
would like to bring in from the Palestinian context. One of the things that
Palestinians, especially the most revolutionary elements in Palestine, the New
Left, what they call themselves -- the New Left. They were grappling with similar
questions that people were grappling with here in the United States. Questions
of how do you deal with the Old Left? In the Palestinian context, for instance,
there used to be historically from the turn of the 20th century, there was a
Palestinian communist party, for instance. It’s one of the earliest ones that was
40
�formed in collaboration with the Soviet Union and October Revolution and so on.
However, and they actually led a very strong workers’ struggle in the 1936 revolt
which was one of the biggest worker strike in Palestine. But then the Zionist
movement intervened and tried to, they had the slogan of Judah is in land and
labor. And when that was going on, [01:29:00] that split the Pales-- the workers’
movement in Palestine because you couldn’t be working around questions of
racism and questions that talk about class solidarity if you actually do not
address the questions of racism, exploitation, indigeneity, loss of land, genocide,
and so on. So in 1948 when Israel was founded, the Palestinian Community
Party ceased to exist. It became the Jordanian Communist Party and the Israeli
Communist Party. So that was, there was a need for new formations to come out
which is very similar which is very similar to what’s happening in the case of
Puerto Rico which we will talk about all the formations that were there. But also
in the United States and so on. So this was one of the things that people were
dealing with and Maoism at that time was the ideological framework for them
because also, the Soviet Union had recognized Israel in 1948 so Palestinian
Leftists were not going to go with it. Also, there was a very interesting, eclectic
mix because people say well, are you pure Marxist/Leninist? Are you pure this
and that? And people say no. You don’t really have to [01:30:00] adopt
everything. You actually bring in what works with your people and you do have,
you do have, you have a Muslim tradition within the Palestinian community. That
is actually very long part of the struggle against colonialism and so on. So you
need, the way you’re talking about the church and so on, we have churches in
41
�Palestine that have been historically involved in liberation theory and against
Zionism that tries to have an exclusivist Jewish state. So we have all of these
things that you really need to be aware of and bring it together as you’re
struggling together against colonialism, as you’re struggling against imperialism,
as you’re building. So that was one of the thing. The other thing that I think is
very interesting which is different from the Palestinians because I think with the
Black Panthers and the Young Lords in particular, there was this whole question
of what Fanon talks about, the lumpen.
AD:
Yes.
RA:
Right?
AD:
Right on.
RA:
Now, with the Palestinian, and the Algerians, it was very prevalent in the Algerian
movement. I think it’s very interesting why Algeria, the same way that Cuba
gives refuge to Assata Shakur, the Algerians gave refuge to the Black Panther
Party [01:31:00] and they say come on, and we will take care of you and we -there was this whole discussion about what, and people were reading Fanon at
the same time. They were trying to figure out how do we deal with the whole
question of lumping the various sections within the movement? The question of
hegemony that Gramsci brought up that wasn’t exactly what Marx and Lenin and
other people were talking about. And the whole relationship with China and the
ways in which China was very revolutionary and then of course, it went sour. The
Chinese -- I mean, there was a problem, especially for Pales-- Arabs and
Palestinians. But also the whole question of violence and how do you think
42
�about violence in terms of, not in terms of anybody carrying guns and going on
and shooting and so on but actually thinking about. What does this mean? Is
this something that Malcolm X said? It is by all means and people think only by
all means without thinking about the context in which he spoke about that. Or
before the mentor, Robert Williams, who talked Negroes with guns and he
actually mentored the Panthers, mentored SNCC, mentored a whole bunch of
people. [01:32:00] So I think it’s really important these kind of things. The last
thing I would say is also the question in which COINTELPRO was a program that
was plucked our leadership. When people come and say, “Oh, what happened
to you? You are docile. You are not doing anything. What’s happening to the
Palestinians?” Look how many leaders have been assassinated every single
day. Then why is it that the COINTELPRO was formed and why is it that we
have also programs by the Israeli Mossad assassinating a whole bunch of
Palestinian leaders? I mean, we don’t have enough time to even talk about
every single one of them but when, until it continues until today. It takes a very
long time to grow leadership. It takes a very long time to grow leadership. It’s
easy to kind of have a protest but you have a long time to grow leaders to, for
people to be published, for people to be organized, for people to be organized for
the people, for people to learn about all sorts of things that are required. They
pluck our leaders and they do it whenever they think the movement is a danger.
When they think the movement is a danger to the system, they go and pluck the
leaders.
AUDIENCE: [01:33:00] That’s right.
43
�RA:
This is one of the things. As we talk about nostalgia, as we talk about what
happened, this, it’s also really very important to think about that. How is it, what’s
necessary today? How do we come together and how do we think about
encouraging people to build movements? What are the things we need to be
worrying about? One of the things I’m very concerned about is “anything goes.”
Anything was very big problem for me. I think we really need to be, people really
need to be disciplined, people need to be accountable to each other --
AUDIENCE: Right, yes. (applause)
RA:
-- (inaudible) [01:33:26 - 01:33:32] and we were critical of each other. People
were critical. So I think these are the, some of the issues of the, some of the
lessons of what you all have been going through because we are also, we are
living here in the United States so we become much more knowledgeable about
the movements that exist in this country. And there are a lot of similarities. I
think this whole question of comparison, coming together, talking with each other,
arguing, helping each other, building on each other, that’s what’s going to push
our movements forward.
AD:
Thank you. Thank you. [01:34:00] (applause)
SM:
This panel and the things that we’ve talked about in terms of the Rainbow
Coalition has shed light because we had one side-show phony by the name of
Jesse Jackson (applause) that tried to, that tried to co-op, okay? That tried to coop the Rainbow Coalition but let me tell you something. Chairman Fred,
Chairman Fred took a Black Panther newspaper and beat Jesse on his head and
kicked him down the stairs at 2350 W. Madison. (applause) So this is the real
44
�deal like Roller Bill.
AUDIENCE: Right on! (applause)
AD:
Okay, Harvey. Grab that mic, Harvey. Go ahead. Did you have something to
say?
PH:
Well, it was just a minor [01:35:00] point but it just flashed in my eyes. (laughter)
In fact, it’s so minor but I’ll say it anyway (laughter) but okay, so a typical week for
those of us that were doing day-to-day political work was that we had to get out
flyers, get out leaflets, and all this stuff costs money. Graphics was really
expensive back then. Today it’s kind of expensive but you have internet. But the
Black Panther Party national headquarters had an office there that was an open
office for organizations in the Bay Are to utilize so whenever we needed graphictype services, Gestetner stuff ready to go for the work in Chinatown or Manila
town or whatever, we could always rely on the Black Panther Party office. So I
would say [01:36:00] that was a very significant part in terms of enabling
organizations beyond just the Panther organization to get the word out, yeah.
AD:
That was, (applause) that was beautiful. I’m glad you put that in there.
(applause) Okay. We got about 10 minutes to go. We’re supposed to be out of
here in five minutes but since we didn’t get in here late, we’re going to be a little
late, okay?
AUDIENCE: Right on!
AD:
So I think we can take about two questions. Try to be short with your questions
and I’m going to try to ask the panelists to be a little short with your responses so
brother from the Chicago Chapter here.
45
�AUDIENCE: Right on.
MALE SPEAKER 1: All power to the people.
AUDIENCE: All power to the people.
M1:
We’ve got several people on that panel who I’ve known since my childhood. I
was a Blackstone Ranger and I was shot [01:37:00] by the Black, by two, by
some Black Panthers. To show how the Coalition, how Rainbow Coalition
worked in Fred’s life was that he took me into his home to provide a political
education. I sit with a gangster disciple who also was a Black disciple who also
is a PhD student. And so we talked about the Rainbow Coalition; this wasn’t just
some theory. Cha-Cha and I go back to the neighborhood, 57th Street, the
Blackstones, the Cobra Stones, and the [Emerald Knights?]. So this was an
active part of the philosophy of the Black Panthers so that was -- it wasn’t so
much a question but just to build that what we did was we went, was that the
Black Panthers, Fred went to the Black community, he went to the white
community, he went to the Latino [01:38:00] community, and he built a coalition
and he made sure that we honored it. Literally, he would kick our ass if we
disrespected (laughter) so literally. So when a sister said discipline, we talking
about in this movement, there needs to be discipline. But there needs to be
vision for a people movement. (applause)
AD:
Yeah, thank you. Thank you very much. We needed that, thank you. (applause)
Okay. One more -- okay, my son wants to ask a question. He’s always got to
ask a question. I’m sorry, did you have a question? So you go first. (laughter)
Sorry, [Jan?].
46
�KIANA MARY:
Hi, my name is [Kiana Mary?]. I’m currently an MSW student
pursuing my master’s degree in social work. I’m really excited about getting
involved in the people’s fight but [01:39:00] just talking to other people, I realize
they’re not as open to racial solidarity and working with others and really
passionate about their own group. How do you market racial solidarity to
different people and other perspectives to gain unity?
AD:
Beautiful question. (applause) Who wants to take that? (pause) Who? Who
wants to try to answer that question?
SM:
Sister, the only solution is revolution, okay? You have to educate. The same, I
mean the [temper plate?] is there. The Black Panther Party basically had set the
[temper plate?]. You just heard all of the different Panthers speak in terms of the
interconnection. That was one of the things Huey always said. The struggle is,
all things are interrelated and interconnected. [01:40:00] So it’s just a matter of
organizing, organizing, and organizing. Work. That’s it.
PTL: I want to add one more thing.
JJ:
I took a marketing class. Face-to-face organizing. (applause)
AD:
Ma’am?
PTL: I just want to acknowledge that if it has to be really intentional. That this, the
work that you want to do needs to be intentional. So within your organization,
being intentional that that’s part of the work that you do. So in San Francisco
Chinatown organization in terms of racial solidarity, we just in the middle of
Chinatown just did a day of remembrance and we read every single name in
terms of young Black, young Black men and women who have been murdered by
47
�the police. And we did this in Chinese, right? Our young people are right up
there in the second-to-the-last row [01:41:00] (applause) that did this in Chinese.
It has to be intentional and it has to have (applause; inaudible).
AD:
Thank you. I’m going to ask some of the -- okay, yes. Go ahead, I’m sorry, yes.
Go ahead.
MALE SPEAKER 2: I just have one question for the panel and that is today, we live in
the age of repression and also the age of suspicion, in a police state. So what
lessons can we learn from the Rainbow Coalition and bring it into our present day
when you have the US government criminalizing all kinds of organizing and
making different people in different communities suspicious of one another
saying if you work with such and such a community, that community may be
linked to external organizations [01:42:00] and so on and so forth especially
within the age of global war and global empire. There’s a war in Yemen now,
there’s a war in Syria, there’s a war in Palestine and the genocide that’s going on
in Palestine. Pretty soon, Latin America’s about to be destabilized. There’s a
war against Native Americans, there’s a war against African Americans here in
the US. So to think globally, where do we start as a Rainbow Coalition today?
Just something to contemplate. And I would really appreciate an answer.
(laughter)
AD:
You want to take a shot at that? Go ahead.
RA:
Just say very, very linked two actually questions together. The whole question of
racial solidarity and this question is that I think we need to be very principled,
number one, about our politics.
48
�AD:
Yes.
RA:
I don’t, [01:43:00] it does not, it is not, at least, well, no. From our communities, it
does, we need to think about justice as indivisible. We cannot be arguing for
justice for one kind of communities without arguing for justice for another type of
community. (applause) So I’m saying for instance today, while we are talking
against racism, and this is one of the things where, and I know there is some
critique for movement for Black Lives. But one of the things that we really
appreciate in the Palestinian Arab Muslim community, the ways in which
movement for Black Lives came out being very forceful around the questions of
genocide in Palestine, anti-Zionism, anti-Islamophobia, and so on. This is, it’s
really, really important and this is not new. I know you’re looking at me, it is not
new. It doesn’t just happen yesterday. This is decades, decades, decades of
struggle, by elders, by people who actually laid out this when it was very difficult
to say something like this. So [01:44:00] I think it’s really important to connect
everything together. I think it’s very, very, damaging, too, and I’m not saying that
because I’m Arab or Muslim or Palestinian. But I think that we really need to
confront Islamophobia. We need to confront anti-Arab racism with the same
regard that we are talking about racism, with colonialism, everything else. I think
it’s very unhelpful to speak about Muslim communities as being specifically and
excessively oppressive of women because they were, our communities are not
more oppressive than any other communities (applause) and we do not have
oppression in our DNA and our men, and our men are not specifically misogynist
while other men are actually very liberal and wonderful and so on. (laughter) It’s
49
�not about men and women. It’s not about men and women. It’s about structural
issues. Structural inequalities, the system of oppression, the global war on terror,
the US greed towards invading and intervening and killing more people. What’s
happening in Yemen you mentioned the bombing, Saudi Arabia happening in
Yemen [01:45:00] and United States standing by supporting Saudi Arabia in order
to which gather revolutions in the Arab world. Against each, every single place
where there are revolutions in the Arab world. Bombing every single day in
Yemen. Nobody is saying anything about that. And continuing putting people in
prison, 2.3 million people are in prison in the United States today. There is more
privatized companies that own prisons like G4S and elsewhere. (applause) This
is really a problem. If we don’t connect the dots and if we only think about our
own little community and we don’t think about the question of justice in general,
we will not be able to win and I don’t want to end on the negative. I want to end
on the positive. That we are here because we are building with each other.
(applause) We have connected the dots. So nobody tells us what can we do.
There are things you can do. Instead of asking a geological question, a
theoretical question, how do we think about it? We are here, we just need to
come together more and we need to take the risk and we need to call people
[01:46:00] on their complicity to be accountable (applause) because they are
complicit if they are being neutral with questions of justice and injustice.
AD:
Thank you, thank you. (applause) Okay. Go ahead, get your question. That’s
the last one.
F:
So it’s actually a statement. Having worked with Chairman Fred and Huey and
50
�Cha-Cha and Hy for the last 40 years, we’re missing the student movement. The
SGS as Stan remembers was a critical part of that Rainbow Coalition. We stood
together, we marched together, and that march on the police station was ChaCha and the Panthers and STS marching on that station and saying Jeff Fort,
hands off [01:46:40]. But there’s also a legacy. That coalition didn’t die. When I
moved back to Chicago in ’83, we elected Harold Washington. (background
noise; inaudible)
AD:
Okay, I’m sorry. We’re going to have to cut it.
F:
I was just going to say the legacy did not die, [01:47:00] we elected Gerald
Washington, and in 2002, we came together and we elected Barack Obama.
AD:
Okay, all right. Okay. I’m biased. My son wants to ask one last question. Make
it quick, [Jan?].
JAN DIXON: Cha-Cha, I just want to ask a question. Did the Young Lords at any time
ever go farther than just in America? Were the Young Lords ever around?
JJ:
Other than, other than what?
JD:
Other than places in South America?
JJ:
Farther than the US?
JD:
Yeah.
JJ:
They went to Puerto Rico and the people in Puerto Rico, some of them didn’t like
the fact that we were there because each neighborhood is different, each
community is different. But so we made some mistakes but we corrected them
and we’re working together. But that’s a very good question. I appreciate it.
AD:
All right. Thank you. Okay, give everybody a hand. (applause; inaudible)
51
�[01:48:00]
END OF VIDEO FILE
52
�
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/0d75b9f19827615e5173494de372c960.mp4
4fa83770f47dc018678c302bb4d254e6
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection
Subject
The topic of the resource
Young Lords (Organization)
Puerto Ricans--United States
Civil Rights--United States--History
Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.)
Personal narratives
Social justice
Community activists--Illinois--Chicago
Description
An account of the resource
Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives.
The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide.
Creator
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Jiménez, José, 1948-
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a>
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Date
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2017-04-25
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
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video/mp4
application/pdf
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eng
spa
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Text
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RHC-65
Coverage
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2012-2017
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Título
Spanish language Title entry
Rainbow Coalition Panel, 23 de octubre de 2016 (Oakland California Museum)
Descripción
Spanish language Description entry
Panel de discusión sobre la Coalición de Arco iris original iniciada por el presidente del Capítulo de Illinois, Fred Hampton. El moderador fue Aaron Dixon y los panelistas incluidos el fundador del Movimiento de los Jóvenes, José (Cha - Cha) Jiménez
Stan McKinney del BPP de Illinois
Co - fundador de la Organización de Jóvenes Patriotas, Hy Thurman
Un líder de la Campaña Hamas Bos Palestina, el Dr. Rabab Abdulhadi
Pam de la Alianza Asiática Americana y la Guardia Roja
Profesor Harvey del I Wor Kuen
Y Lenny Foster de la Nación Navajo y el Movimiento Indígena Americano (A.I.M.).
Sujetos
Spanish language Subject terms
Young Lords (Organización)
Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos
Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia
Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.)
Mexicano-Americanos--Relatos personales
Justicia social
Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago
Mexico-Americanos--Illinois--Chicago--Condiciones sociales
Relaciones raciales
Conflicto social
Identitad cultural
Partido Pantera Negra. Illinois Capítulo
Source
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a>
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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RHC-65_Rainbow_Coalition_20161023
Title
A name given to the resource
Rainbow Coalition Panel, October 23rd, 2016 (Oakland California Museum)
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Rainbow Coalition
Description
An account of the resource
Panel discussion about the original Rainbow Coalition begun by Illinois Chapter Chairman Fred Hampton. The moderator was Aaron Dixon and panelists included founder of the Young Lords Movement, Jose (Cha-Cha) Jimenez; Stan McKinney of the Illinois BPP; Co-founder of the Young Patriots Organization, Hy Thurman; a leader of the Palestinian Hamas Bos Campaign, Dr. Rabab Abdulhadi; Pam of the Asian American Alliance and the Red Guard; Professor Harvey of the I Wor Kuen; and Lenny Foster of the Navajo Nation and the American Indian Movement (A.I.M.).
Contributor
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Jiménez, José, 1948-
Subject
The topic of the resource
Young Lords (Organization)
Puerto Ricans--United States
Civil Rights--United States--History
Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.)
Mexican Americans--Personal narratives
Social justice
Community activists--Illinois--Chicago
Mexican Americans--Illinois--Chicago--Social conditions
Race relations
Social conflict
Cultural identity
Black Panther Party. Illinois Chapter
Language
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eng
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video/mp4
application/pdf
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-10-23
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/de0fac4fc26f07d658d2a747d935ddc0.pdf
3d0f18d3a07c4ec305a06b5feab35093
PDF Text
Text
�
Dublin Core
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Incunabula
Description
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The term incunabula refers to books printed between 1450 and 1500, approximately the first fifty years following the invention, by Johann Gutenberg of Mainz, of printing from moveable type. Our collection includes over 200 volumes and numerous unbound leaves from books printed during this period.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1450/1500
Source
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Incunabula Collection (DC-03)
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United </a>
Subject
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Incunabula
Printing 1450-1500
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Identifier
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DC-03
Format
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application/pdf
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text
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eng
it
la
nl
de
Still Image
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Pantheologia, sive Summa universae theologiae [folium 115]
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DC-03_115Rainerius1477
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Rainerius, de Pisis, -approximately 1348
Description
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One leaf from Pantheologia, sive Summa universae theologiae by Rainerius de Pisis and edited by Jacobus Florentinus. Printed in Nuremberg by Anton Kogerger on August 3, 1474. Illustrated with red and blue rubricated initials.[GW M36936; ISTC ir00007000]
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Nuremberg: Anton Koberger
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Incunabula
Printing 1450-1500
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la
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a>
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1474
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Seidman Rare Books Collection
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Florentinus, Jacobus (editor)
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Text
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ef5bc825ee6b22aef6560d489894607d.pdf
698ed6a443d920aba171d529e2d8f226
PDF Text
Text
�
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Incunabula
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The term incunabula refers to books printed between 1450 and 1500, approximately the first fifty years following the invention, by Johann Gutenberg of Mainz, of printing from moveable type. Our collection includes over 200 volumes and numerous unbound leaves from books printed during this period.
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1450/1500
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Incunabula Collection (DC-03)
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United </a>
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Incunabula
Printing 1450-1500
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
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DC-03
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application/pdf
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text
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eng
it
la
nl
de
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Pantheologia, sive Summa universae theologiae [folium 113]
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DC-03_113Rainerius1473
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Rainerius, de Pisis, -approximately 1348
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One leaf from Pantheologia, sive Summa universae theologiae by Rainerius de Pisis and edited by Jacobus Florentinus. Printed in Nuremberg by Johann Sensenschmidt and Heinrich Kefer on April 8, 1473. Illustrated with red rubricated initials. [GW M36929; ISTC ir00005000]
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Nuremberg: Johann Sensenschmidt and Heinrich Kefer
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Incunabula
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la
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a>
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1437
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Seidman Rare Books Collection
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Florentinus, Jacobus (editor)
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Text
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/eb16c66afd6f7a61772dddb9cd137acd.pdf
c277747b37f1ecc39e8294e9c01c7f41
PDF Text
Text
Young Lords
In Lincoln Park
Interviewee: Gamaliel Ramirez
Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez
Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections
Date: 5/11/2012
Biography and Description
English
Gamaliel Ramirez was born in 1949 in South Bronx, New York to recently arrived immigrant parents.
Their family moved to Chicago in 1955. He attended the Peabody School on Augusta just east of Ashland
and west of I-94, which then divided the Puerto Rican community in half, with Old Town, Lakeview and
Lincoln Park on the east, and Wicker Park and Humboldt Park on the west. Although Mr. Ramirez was
never a member, he hung around with the Latin Kings and with the Young Lords.
Struggling with undiagnosed dyslexia, Mr. Ramirez was forced out of school when he was 16 years old. It
was then that he decided to teach himself how to paint, visiting the Art Institute of Chicago to study the
paintings of European, and later the American and Latin American, masters. Mr. Ramirez became one of
the pioneers of the Chicago-based Latino Art Movement and has exhibited his paintings nationally and
internationally.
Mr. Ramirez’s brother, Eddie Ramirez, was Assistant Coordinator in charge of precincts during the
Jiménez for Alderman Campaign. Gamaliel Ramirez volunteered to work with the Latin Eagles and Young
Lords to clean up the area and stop the flow of drugs in the then well- established open drug market of
Wilton and Grace Streets. The Young Lords brokered a deal with the Latin Eagles to clean up the graffiti
�in the neighborhood in return for Mr. Ramirez assisting them to paint their Latin Eagle -- an Eagle and
Puerto Rican Flag symbol -- on the wall in their Wilton and Grace neighborhood. Mr. Ramirez also led
the painting of murals at the Young Lords office, both outside and inside.
Spanish
Gamaliel Ramirez nació en 1949 en South Bronx, Nueva York a padres que acababan de inmigrarse. Su
familia so mudo a Chicago en 1955. Atendió la escuela de Peabody, en Augusta que era este de Ashland
y oeste del I-94. En este tiempo el I-94 separaba la comunidad en dos partes, el Old Town, Lakeview y
Lincoln Park en el este, y Wicker Park y Humboldt Park en el oeste. Señor Ramirez nunca fue un
miembro de los Latin Kings o de los Young Lords si era amigos con unos de los miembros.
Luchando con dislexia, Señor Ramirez fue forzado ah abandonar la escuela cuando tiene 16 años. Era en
este momento que decidió aprender a pintar, visito el Art Institute of Chicago para aprender sobre las
pinturas Europeos y luego fue con maestros para aprender sobre las pinturas Americana y Americana
Latina. Señor Ramirez fue uno de los primeros de ser parte del Movimiento de Arte Latino en Chicago, y
expone su arte nacional igual que internacionalmente.
El hermano Señor Ramirez, Eddie Ramirez, era el coordinador asistente que estaba en cargo distritos
durante la Campaña de Alderman para Jiménez. Gamaliel Ramirez ofreció trabajar con los Latin Eagles y
Young Lords para limpiar la aria de drogas que en este tiempo había cambio de drogas en simple vista en
las calles de Wilton y Grace Street. Los Young Lords hicieron un acuerdo con los Latin Eagles para limpiar
el graffiti en el vecindario. Señor Ramirez también fue un líder en pintar los murales en la oficina de los
Young Lords, por dentro y por fuera.
�Transcript
JOSE JIMENEZ:
Where were we?
GAMALIEL RAMIREZ:
Well, everything, with doing the murals and doing the whole
community, involved in things that I -JJ:
Involved, what’s that like, involved?
GR:
Yeah, things I’m involved in.
JJ:
How did you involve? (inaudible)
GR:
Well, a lot of the time, I was doing community work and work in my community. I
was also studying art. I was always going to the Art Institute and studying what’s
going on, reading books.
JJ:
(inaudible)
GR:
I was self-taught. Just, I look at it this way. I used to go and study the masters,
so I claimed that the masters taught me how to paint, although they were dead
and I didn’t have a conversation with them. But by looking at their work is what I
studied, and then by studying them, I evolved into my own thing (overlapping
dialogue).
JJ:
You mentioned Vincent van Gogh.
GR:
Vincent van Gogh, Picasso. Also, later on, I got very much into the Latin
American scene too. I think I visited about 10 murals in Mexico, [00:01:00]
Orozco, Siqueiros, Rivera. I actually go to Mexico just to see the murals. I
traveled to all different parts of Mexico, looking at the murals, checking them out,
learning, because you can see the photographs, and they’re incredible, but when
1
�you see the real painting, it’s just mind-blowing. It’s nothing like the photographs.
The photographs are small. You don’t see so many details. You don’t see
brushstrokes. You don’t see the whole thing, you know? But when you go to see
the Mexican murals in Mexico live, then you learn a lot about the -JJ:
The detail?
GR:
You learn a lot about what the artist was dealing with, yeah, his style and stuff
like that. And of course, I also went to San Francisco to check out the murals,
LA, check out the murals. I tried to check some out in New York. Everywhere I’d
go, I’d try to learn the history of the local movement. In San Francisco, they got a
strong movement, and I spent time here off and on with a friend of mine,
(inaudible). You probably know him from the old days, and [00:02:00] he’s out
there painting murals, and I stayed with him. He knows everybody over there.
He’s been there that long. So, I’m always studying. (inaudible) a little better
before. Economically, we were doing better. The travel was a little cheaper.
With 100 bucks, I could drive my car all the way to LA. You can’t do that no
more. (laughs) And the flights are more expensive now. I don't know, what did it
cost you to come over here?
JJ:
We got here with the school, so it was 200 dollars.
GR:
Round trip?
JJ:
Yeah.
GR:
For each one?
JJ:
Yeah.
2
�GR:
That’s good. No, I gotta do some research, but I was thinking of going there next
month or not. I’m put in a situation where I need to get registered with a hospital,
and I need to find an apartment. I need to do other stuff, so I really can’t travel
yet, so I’m thinking maybe just travel later. It’s nothing [00:03:00] that important.
I’m painting my storage place in Chicago, so that’s the only thing that I got over
there that’s important, and I miss my friends, but I got new ones here. I gotta
make new ones eventually.
JJ:
Didn’t you have a community agency that you were teaching for a while?
GR:
Urban Gateways. Well, yeah, ironically, I was kicked out of school, out of
grammar school, eighth grade, never made it to high school. But as soon as I
started teaching in the community and working with the gangs, working with the
churches, working with the schools, I got popular in that sense, and then they
hired me, Urban Gateways, through some influences from the Latino Board of
Directors that screamed that, “There’s no Latinos in your program.” And they
said, “Well, find us some qualified ones, and we’ll hire them.” So, my name was
submitted, and not only that, David was already there.
JJ:
David Hernández.
GR:
Right. And then from there, José del Rios came and the Maria de (inaudible).
Then we saw more Latinos started getting in. I was like the second Puerto Rican
there. [00:04:00] For 25 years, I’ve always worked having an agency (inaudible).
I always worked on my own, freelancing, but I also worked in the schools. After
they threw me out, I went back to the schools and worked with them for 25 years,
teaching grammar school from kindergarten to eighth grade and high schools.
3
�And when I left, when I got my cancer and emphysema and all that, and I had to
give it up, I was working every day at different schools, working for After School
Matters with Maggie Daley’s program, and then I was working for Urban
Gateways for 25 years.
JJ:
So, you said you got cancer and emphysema.
GR:
I got cancer and emphysema all at the same time it hit me sort of.
JJ:
Is it in remission or--?
GR:
Well, the cancer’s in remission, but that’s why [00:05:00] I’m saying I gotta hook
up with the hospital system here to make sure that it’s at bay, that it’s not
messing with me now. The last time I had cancer, the main thing that it did to me
was that it didn’t let me produce blood, so I was walking around with three pints
of blood and didn’t know it for four months, and I was falling everywhere. I was
bumping my head on every wall at Adrian’s? house. (laughs) I was collapsing
everywhere, and we didn’t know what that was all about, until one time I
collapsed in the hospital, and they took me to the ER, and they checked me out,
and they says, “You know, you only got three pints of blood. We’re gonna have
to give you blood.” And after all that, after four months with struggling with it, I
mean, I was crawling through my chemo. I crawled through radiation. I crawled
through the whole process because nobody knew that I was missing blood, and
that was the reason why I couldn’t get up, I couldn’t stand up. I’d stand up and
fall down. My students had to pick me up. So, after that, they told me I had
[00:06:00] emphysema, so they retired me. They gave me social security.
Ironically, the social security check is what I get normally, and then I starve half
4
�the time because I didn’t work in the summer, and I didn’t work on the holidays,
but with social security, I’m doing better because I get a check regardless if it’s
summer, holiday, whatever. I still get that check every month, and it’s about the
same amount that I was making with them, but there was parts that I didn’t have
no income, like all summer. It was rough. I just did some freelance work here
and there. And then Christmas, there was no jobs. There was many times at
Christmas, I didn’t have no money to buy gifts for my daughter. I was really
feeling terrible about that, but that’s how it was. Now I get the steady check all
the time, and if I’m painting a painting, don’t tell nobody. (laughter) You can’t
prove that.
JJ:
Yeah, you have your ways, man.
GR:
(laughs) No, so I make [00:07:00] a little bit of extra income that way, no big thing
though. It’s not to the point where they’re going to --
JJ:
Chump change.
GR:
Yeah, it’s chump change, exactly. It just gets me through the end of the month,
which I enjoy. I enjoy that because everything that I painted, Puerto Rico, that I --
JJ:
There’s only so much money in that city.
GR:
Right.
JJ:
(inaudible)
GR:
Right. Poverty is 17,000, so if you go over 17,000 --
JJ:
You’re on Social Security, you’re in the poverty range.
GR:
Yes, in poverty. I was in poverty when I was working. (laughs) I was working
still. I was in poverty when I was working.
5
�JJ:
You’ve done a lot of volunteer work for a lot of organizations, at the Daley Center.
GR:
Yeah, and I’ve done murals for half price.
JJ:
Right. All your life.
GR:
All my life, I’ve been donating. They call it “donation”.
JJ:
And that was (inaudible) or in person?
GR:
Yeah. You know what I do now, if you go to my murals in Chicago, [00:08:00]
you’ll see that it is also funded --
JJ:
We had a lot of politicians helping the Young Lords, and I had appreciated that.
GR:
Right. Yeah, a lot of people are donating. The last piece that I donated, that
painting of [congelo?] that I did to the Haitian cause. When they call Gallery, the
Black Gallery of Chicago, she did a fundraiser for the people of Haiti, so I
donated a painting, and that brought in 700 dollars. It was worth twice as much,
but I’m happy that I was able to do something. And I just got out of the hospital.
JJ:
So, you still do some shows.
GR:
Well, down in Chicago, I have a show. I did some drawings, and I sent them to
them, and they’re showing my work.
JJ:
And they are showing it?
GR:
Yeah. And then I just did that thing on Channel 11. They showed a lot of my
work here. They interviewed me, and they talk about my work.
JJ:
What was the name of that thing on Channel 11? What was that?
GR:
Oh, I can’t remember.
JJ:
Was it like a video? [00:09:00]
6
�GR:
Yeah, it’s a video of low-income housing artists, and I was one of them that
wanted to move into the space, so I got on. They loved my -- they needed
artwork because --
JJ:
The low-income artists in Chicago, you’re saying?
GR:
Yeah.
JJ:
On Bloomingdale Street?
GR:
It was [NNWAC?] that did it, the Near NorthWest Arts Council, on Bloomingdale,
and the building project was called ACME, and like I say about it, it was done
upside-down, so to speak, and because of that, I was ousted out of the program.
They pushed me out, so to speak. I mean, I put down payment, but I had to do
several things to qualify to get the low-income money. Because I couldn’t do that
immediately, they put somebody else into my place. And I just said, “Forget
about it,” and so I (inaudible), and I’m like, “Oh, there’s so much (inaudible) going
on,” and half the people there are not real artists, so I didn’t feel very
comfortable. They had some real good artists in there, [00:10:00] like [Daniel’s?]
in there. I have to give that. They do have some artists in there that are very
good and very prolific, but there are some artists there that are not really art -they’re art teachers who they’ve been teaching forever. They don’t have to be
selling their work. They don’t have to be showing. They’re involved (inaudible).
Anyway, I left that, and during that time, I was living in south Chicago. I had
moved to south Chicago for five years, so I pretty much knew the city.
JJ:
So, when you were in south Chicago, you were donating work out there.
7
�GR:
Yes, I did projects over there with the community organizations. Some of them
are published, very well known. They’re published on the internet, and they’re
published in books, Chicago Public Arts Group. They liked the work, and they
used it for their books. They never funded me. I did it on my own with the
agencies, but it’s several of them. They’re very well done and still intact, very
beautiful. [00:11:00] Everybody loves that work, and I’m real proud of it. But I did
murals in Benito Juarez High School also, 18th Street. I’ve done in the Black
communities, like Kanoon School, I did a really nice mural in the gym, “It Takes a
Whole Village,” a nice painting of, you know, Africans, Afro-American community,
schools all over the place, Catholic schools, all these, St. Mary’s, St. Sebastian in
the lunch room. So, I did it with the kids. At St. Pius, in their lunch room, there’s
one at St. Pius. So, all over the city, I was doing the murals with the Urban
Gateways. I would go in for 10 weeks. Then we’d started planning and
organizing, and I taught people the basic stuff, basic lessons, and from there,
we’d come up with a concept, and we’d paint them. [00:12:00] And I would get
one class to paint for an hour. The other class would paint for an hour. The other
class would paint for an hour. Then I’m outta there, right? Then, I’d put in a few
touches here and there, boom, got a mural, and they’d hang ’em. They’d put up
really nice panels. They gave me a few dollars for building the panels, and I
would take them to the school, paint them real nice, and they’d hang them on
their walls, so they’re still there. Stockton Elementary in Uptown, I spent six
months working on a project there with the principal there, with -- what was her
8
�name -- Deborah Esparza. She was from Lakeview also. I met her there. And I
ran to her, and she told me, “Why don’t you come to my school?”
JJ:
What’s her name?
GR:
Deborah Esparza. She’s got a doctor’s degree, so she was at Stockton
Elementary in Uptown.
JJ:
She’s in Puerto Rico now?
GR:
No, she’s still teaching. I think she’s a district supervisor. She was a young
principal with a doctor’s degree, so she was moving up when I first met her,
[00:13:00] so she’s a supervisor now in Uptown in that area. But there’s a really
nice mural in there in the hallways as you walk to the auditorium. Helen Shiller
was there. I got some Greeley Elementary School, across the street from Gill
Park. There’s two murals facing the community, out to the community, that I did
with them. I did several murals. That was the last job that I had. I actually was
doing a few murals. You know, they came out so beautiful, sometimes I felt so
sad because people would steal them, teachers. They got ’em in their rec room
or something.
JJ:
They’ll take ’em?
GR:
They’ll take them. They say, “What happened to the mural?” (laughter)
JJ:
It was a painting or a mural?
GR:
Well, right, we’d put ’em on panels. Then we’d put ’em outside. I’d done that in
south Chicago and at Greeley Elementary. I used a technique that I had to learn
real fast how to use because it was cheaper than painting the wall, and I wouldn’t
[00:14:00] have to take the kids up there. We could do it all ground level.
9
�JJ:
Because you were doing these murals with the kids.
GR:
Yeah. We would design the concepts and put them together and then paint them
with a group of special kids, after-school programs basically.
JJ:
After-school programs, that was with people who have gang --
GR:
Greeley was an interesting school because gangs -- it was just cream of the
crop. That school got the Blue Ribbon Award, the National Blue Ribbon Award,
for one of the best schools in the country. That school got that, so that wasn’t a
gang program, but over there with the high school, Kelvyn Park High School, now
that’s different. That was people who are trying to get the gangbangers into
making art and stuff. It was difficult. I had a lot of success with the Latino kids
from Latin America. They’re very polite, very well mannered, and they love to do
things. They all love work. They love [00:15:00] to work, so they all work. Some
of the gang guys, as soon as you try to get them to work, they just give you a
hard time and give you dirty looks and then walk away. So, it’s hard. That’s the
question.
JJ:
But you did do some prevention because they’re being able to do something
before they went into that.
GR:
Yeah, might’ve. Yeah, there’s a lot of kids who also became artists.
JJ:
(inaudible)
GR:
Yeah. There’s a lot of kids became artists eventually. I had students that
became artists, and apparently they didn’t get into gangs and stuff like that. But
the gangs are overwhelming the schools over there. You know the problem in
Chicago in the ghetto. It’s overwhelming. It’s not exactly an easy thing. And part
10
�of it is not so much us or them. It’s more the system is what creates these
problems. You know what I’m saying?
JJ:
What do you mean?
GR:
Well, it’s too top heavy. [00:16:00] The administration is very top heavy. They
run all the schools. By the time the money trickles down to the schools for extra
services and stuff like that, it trickles down, and they don’t get much of it. And
now, the way the money is set up, they get the money from property values, so if
you’re in the ghetto, what kind of property value are you going to have? But if
you go to Winnetka or if you go to Zion and you go to one of their schools and
teach, which I’ve gone that far out to teach, and you go into the schools, they got
everything. They got beautiful studios. They got beautiful rooms, beautiful lunch
rooms, beautiful buildings, and the teachers get paid fairly well, and they get a
chance to do with the kids some -- learn things like that. But the difference
between that and going to a school in the South Side of Chicago and Lawndale
neighborhood, South Lawndale by Hyde Park, where the university is moving
everybody out of there, [00:17:00] Chicago University, I was teaching a class of
kindergarten kids. Their principal explained to me -- the principal was a friend of
mine -- he explained to me, “These kids, their parents are crackheads and stuff
like that. We got to try to teach them and stuff.” They’re very difficult to
discipline. They don’t have any discipline at all. It was very hard to discipline
them. And he would get their attention, but anybody else, like a stranger like me,
I had to work twice as hard with them. They would grasp the concept, but they
didn’t learn. They didn’t even know how to hold pencils.
11
�JJ:
You mentioned Kelvyn Park or something like that. You mentioned that people
were being displaced or something. Was it the South Side?
GR:
Yeah, the South Side, in Lawndale, South Lawndale.
JJ:
There’s been a lot of displacement in Chicago.
GR:
Oh, yeah.
JJ:
You grew up also in Lakeview, and [00:18:00] you (inaudible) Lincoln Park.
GR:
And even Humboldt Park is changing.
JJ:
And Humboldt Park is changing. Do you think that the fact that the community is
changing all the time, do you think that had an impact or anything on some of
these things?
GR:
Well, it’s -- what do they call it -- economic injustice going on, injustice. It’s
economic injustice. Poor people are poor, and they don’t give any resources.
JJ:
Have you seen Winnetka? Winnetka, that’s the neighborhood that’s been stable
all the time. The same people have been living there all the time. They haven’t
been displaced. Do you think that contributes to the kids acting a little bit better
than the ones in Humboldt Park or some other place who were displaced? I
mean, it’s a political question I’m asking.
GR:
Well, yeah, because you’re talking about Winnetka.
JJ:
(inaudible)
GR:
Well, [00:19:00] isn’t it Bill (inaudible) comes from Winnetka, no? Or he comes
from that neighborhood up there, right?
JJ:
(inaudible)
GR:
Yeah, right? (laughs) So, in other words --
12
�JJ:
Now, he was all right.
GR:
No, he’s a political person, and all they’re doing -- they blew up the building.
JJ:
But actually, what I’m saying is political. They got a kid grows up in the
neighborhood. You moved all the time. Did that have an effect on you, you
moved all the time?
GR:
Oh, yeah. You didn’t have a steady neighborhood. You didn’t have a steady
group of neighbors. You didn’t know what it is, a neighborhood. You didn’t know
what a neighborhood was, really. Once I moved into a Puerto Rican
neighborhood, that was the first time that I had the chance of not moving around,
but I chose to move around still. But then I went to Lakeview. Now, Lakeview, of
course, renovated quicker than West Town. If I would’ve stayed in West Town,
people in West Town, if you tell them about gentrification, they say, “Well, that’s
over there.” [00:20:00] They don’t realize it’s right behind them. As a matter of
fact, I told them, I’m here, watch out. (laughs) And they follow the artists. They
follow the art trends. Like Wicker Park, they bring in the artists, and some
commercial people come down, and then it brings the yuppies, and it brings
everybody else, and then before you know it, they’ll come the million dollar
homes that they have now in Bucktown, right? They only cost 10,000 dollars
awhile back. You could buy a greystone building for 10,000 dollars, three stories,
three apartments, you know, nice building. Now that same building is worth a
million dollars, so yeah, it doesn’t help. It’s sort of like Helen. Helen is the only
person I know that was able to bring in some yuppies but keep ’em at bay,
13
�keeping ’em like, say, where you can only have so many condominiums on the
block. After that, you gotta give us something else.
JJ:
Helen Shiller?
GR:
Helen. [00:21:00] And because of that, they were always trying to get her out,
and spent millions of dollars trying to get her out. She left on her own, but
because she was tired. She was tired. But she was always telling me the stories
that that’s how they did it over there. And she was doing a lot of the low-income
housing stuff and Mayor Daley learned that from her. He actually adopted some
of the programs. You know, the corporate Chicago, if they see good ideas, they
take ’em eventually, they use them. So, low-income housing’s a reality now, and
art is low-income. Mayor Daley, he’s very proud of that ACME building. And he
helped make it happen. Mayor Daley has been there, pictures of David and his
wife and all that with Mayor Daley. (laughter) But those [concepts?]come around
for regular people, and then the city sees that it needs to be done. Everybody
criticized Mayor Daley for having the city that doesn’t have low-income housing,
and so he started saying, “Oh, let’s do something for the low-income housing
now.” So, he is doing [00:22:00] his bit, or he was doing his bit.
JJ:
But do you think he was kind of pressured into that?
GR:
Yeah, because he had to put face.
JJ:
Because he came into office in ’55?, (inaudible). That’s where the neighborhood
said, “You need to split.”
GR:
Yeah, they had the plan where they wanted to get rid of us.
JJ:
Right now, (inaudible) pressure to get them out.
14
�GR:
Yeah, because otherwise he’d be just like his father.
JJ:
The city’s still displacing people.
GR:
Yeah, but he said that he’d be like -- well, he has been --
JJ:
Oh, you’re talking about the younger Daley.
GR:
Yeah.
JJ:
But his father was the same plan.
GR:
It’s the same thing, yeah. It’s all, he inherited everything. Of course, he inherited
everything. I mean, you know. It’s proven that he was the state’s attorney when
they killed Fred Hampton, right? And it’s proven that he got blood on his hat, but
they don’t say anything about it. So, it’s like, okay, so the city pays out millions of
dollars to a family, and that’s it. And newspapers say that the city admits that
[00:23:00] they did wrong, and they admit that Mayor Daley knew about it.
Everybody knew about it, the Red Squad. I mean, they admit to it.
JJ:
What was the Red Squad? What do you mean, the Red Squad?
GR:
Well, it was that the FBI throughout the city developed this squad to go and kill
Fred Hampton. It’s the Red Squad. I mean, you knew all about it before I knew
about it. I learned about it through history because I wasn’t living there at the
time, but you knew about it when it happened. You know what I mean? So, the
time and all that, people understand that, and community leaders understand
that. The Puerto Rican community understands. The Mexican community
understands it. But you still have the whole thing that they have this buffer, and
it’s called the middle class. (laughs) It keeps everybody voting and saying, “Oh,
he’s doing a good job.” Right?
15
�JJ:
That’s what they (inaudible). (laughs)
GR:
Well, the middle class is corroding [00:24:00] right now, and that’s what the whole
application issue is. As the middle class corrodes, then that’s how France had
the revolution, because they got rid of the middle class. People got really upset.
There was like nothing but poor people, and so they had the revolution. That’s
one of the reasons why France started, after the revolution, to have free
education, because if you educate the masses, then you could have a middle
class. But if you don’t educate them, you’re not going to have a middle class.
The middle class is that buffer that keeps politicians in place, in this country
anyway. The middle class, they’re falling like cockroaches. They’re falling, but
they don’t see it. They don’t realize who they are. You know what I mean? It’s
not gone, or I mean, the whole thing when Slim Coleman was working in Uptown
for your election, for your campaign, during the campaign, and it was that the
white Appalachian [00:25:00] poor people didn’t think that the system was all that
bad because they were white, and then the Black have it bad because the Blacks
are Black, you know? But they didn’t realize that they were also just as bad off
as the Black people, or worse, some of them. And this happens to -- I went to
the south, to South Carolina, and you could see how the yuppies go there and
buy a hillbilly’s house, renovate the inside but leave the outside look like a hillbilly
house, so it has the authentic look, rustic look. So, you can tell the difference
there. Their roads have Pampers all over the place, and their kids are running
around naked. You could see the other one had sparkling glass, and it’s beautiful
with its old roof and all this stuff. But that’s what the yuppies have taken over,
16
�buying all these areas up, so the Appalachians are forced out also in North
Carolina, when I went there to visit.
JJ:
So, there’s a big displacement there.
GR:
Yeah. There’s displacement going on everywhere, [00:26:00] everywhere. The
whole thing that’s going on in Florida with the ban and the foreclosures and all
that, that’s incredible. That’s incredible that that could happen at such a massive
scale. Well, one of the reasons nothing happens, nothing can be done about it,
nothing has been done about it because they killed all the left movement. They
killed everybody on the left, not the right. They didn’t kill the right movement.
The right movement is healthy, too healthy. (laughs)
JJ:
So, they killed a lot of leaders?
GR:
They killed all our leaders. If Martin Luther King was around, would they be able
to get away with this? No, there would be some organizing. There would be
some high-level organizations, not only (inaudible), but Fred Hampton
(inaudible). He would’ve been the mayor of Chicago. If all these people that
they killed during the ’60s, ’70s, if those people were still alive, if Robert Kennedy
was alive, things would be totally different. [00:27:00] They wouldn’t let these
things happen. That’s the only reason Nixon was able to become president,
because they killed all the left talent, and there was nobody to run, and Richard
Nixon looked like a genius, (laughs) and we all know better than that, right? It
was because they killed everybody on the left. A lot of people don’t understand
that, all right? I see that very clearly because I say, well, what happened?
Where’s all my support? Where’s my backup? It's not there. What happened to
17
�it? They all got killed. Who killed ’em? The right-wing people killed them. It
wasn’t us. It was right-wing people. Guess who gave Nixon a hard time for the
presidency, kicked his ass, made him look like shit? Kennedy, because who
killed -- next thing you know, Kennedy gets killed, and Nixon looking good.
Before that, he was looking like an idiot because they didn’t have something to
compare him to. I don’t know, [00:28:00] I think that’s what happened. I know
that’s what happened. I don’t think; I know that’s what happened. That’s why it
was such a loss these days, because they wiped out the left movement. We’re
waiting for the next generation of left, and they’re out there in the streets. You
don’t see them, but if you keep your eyes open and your ears to the pavement,
you’re gonna see that Chicago beat up a bunch of young people during the times
that they had whatever, the Democratic Convention, the Republican Convention.
It always brings all these young people out, all these young organizers.
Occupation’s a good example of what’s going on, Occupation. It’s a good
reaction to the Tea Party. It's a good reaction.
JJ:
Occupation of Wall Street?
GR:
Yeah.
JJ:
I would say it’s kind of an evolution from our time.
GR:
Right. And now it’s internet, different from our time. They have the internet now,
which means they can organize [00:29:00] pretty fast. And then every town is
organizing across the country. You know, what they do is they keep on hiring
more police. I was talking to the people on the Greater West Town Committee,
and this is Pulaski and North Avenue. They have a historical society there, and
18
�they have these articles about the problems in the neighborhood, so I started to - you know, Jeff-something is saying, “Yeah, the problem is because of this and
this and this.” “Oh, yeah, going around pointing fingers. Blame the rich people.”
I said, “No, sorry if you’re rich, man, but the point is that if we don’t have no
economics for the people, then we’re going to have these problems.” Poor
people didn’t come from nowhere. They were invented. They were produced,
and our society’s doing that. And if there’s only a few rich people [00:30:00] and
there’s a bunch of poor people, then you know what the problem is. They got rid
of what I said. They erased the articles out of the page, and they don’t even
want to talk about it, or they want to talk about gentrified Pulaski and North
Avenue; bring them back. They want it back to where it was, and they’re going to
get it back because that’s what’s going on. Look at Wicker Park. Look at Lincoln
Park, same thing. They just don’t realize that, what they’re doing. The yuppies
moving into Humboldt Park, I mean, I agree with you that they need a place to
live, (inaudible). (laughter) I feel bad for the yuppies because everybody blames
everything on them. They didn’t tell the yuppies when they moved into the
neighborhood, that apartment that they’d rented just now for 1,000 or 2,000
dollars only cost 100 dollars before they came. They didn’t tell them that. What
did they do? The developers, [00:31:00] and they put City Hall and the
politicians. The politicians, these are our own politicians that are doing that.
They’re selling us out short, and that’s how the yuppies move in. And then what
are they doing in West Town? Okay, Humboldt Park (inaudible). Humboldt Park
is a good deal. I’m sorry, it’s so -- you know? And these little kids, turning them
19
�into hate people. People, they hate yuppies. I hear that. I hear that from these
young people that they hate yuppies, but they don’t realize that the politician that
they’re getting into office is the one that okayed that deal made that the banks
and the developers made so now for the yuppies to come in and pay 2,000
dollars a month. If they put the same energy into helping the poor people out,
then they could do something positive, but they don’t. The politicians and the
banks, bankers and developers, are in it together, and it’s legal, and they
[00:32:00] make the yuppies look bad. And they blame it all on the yuppies. You
know what I’m saying, right?
JJ:
Yeah.
GR:
On Division Street, yuppies keep out. What’s that all about? They don’t know
who the real enemy is. We are our own enemies. Right now, we’re overrepresentative. We have more Puerto Rican congressmen than any small group
of people ever had, and we can’t get shit done, and we’re still struggling. Just
look at it. We’re only four million people. What community enjoys so many
politicians, of four million? No community has that many politicians of four million
people. They don’t have that many politicians. We got Puerto Ricans in the
Bronx. We got Puerto Ricans in Manhattan. We got Puerto Ricans from
everywhere. We got Puerto Ricans in Philadelphia. We have Puerto Ricans in
Ohio, in Chicago, all these congressmen. We got more congressmen than we
need, and [00:33:00] yet we can’t get any -- still, we got the worst schools, living
in the worst ghettos. They’re making deals with developers, the banks, offices.
There’s politics, right? The art of compromising.
20
�JJ:
Any final words?
GR:
Any final words? (laughs)
JJ:
(inaudible)
GR:
Well, it’s not over. (laughs) It’s just beginning. I mean, let’s look at it this way.
We’re going to be a footnote in history, how (inaudible) evolved. But I think what
we’re seeing and what we’re doing right now are very important because, for
instance, I talked to this young lady that was feeding the crowds in New York,
young Puerto Rican girl. She was telling me about what she’s involved, what
she’s doing. She had cancer. She had a brain aneurysm, but she’s out there
[00:34:00] doing it, and with her husband. They’re both political, young Puerto
Ricans. And I said, “Man, I wish I was out there with you guys. I feel so guilty I
cannot be part of this.” And she said, “You was doing this when I was a little kid.
I mean, you were telling me I gotta do something. Your work has been political.
Your stuff has been political since the very beginning, since I met you, since I’ve
known you, and you’ve influenced a lot of people.” And what we’re telling them
is, “Look at him. Look at you, what you’re thinking, what you’re saying, because
that’s the real answer.” It’s our idea comes solutions. You can’t have a solution if
you don’t look at the problem, and we have examined the problem, like under a
microscope, all our lives. We’ve been very critical of the society, of the system,
of the political people, very political. We’ve been very political. In that sense,
we’re just at the [00:35:00] beginning of it, really. We are the beginning. The
’60s was the beginning. Where they’re going to in the future is all related. It’s all
related. And things will get better. I mean, I quit voting because I heard, was it
21
�[Kleberg?] say, “Well, people think they’re radical because they go out and vote
for a liberal every four years.” That’s not radical. That’s not organizing. You
gotta live a life. You gotta organize. You gotta live a life. You gotta do it. And
now I choose to be with my artist friends, my artist family, and we all help each
other, and we all get ahead somehow and keep on moving forward. And our
expressions and what we say about society, it’s very important for the future.
This is why this is important, this video, your project that you’re doing. How is
that? Sound great? (laughs)
END OF VIDEO FILE
22
�
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d4d757e0fae9dbbf76fb208b218f6900.mp4
060d9db24b90e05a32e6c2576d9da284
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection
Subject
The topic of the resource
Young Lords (Organization)
Puerto Ricans--United States
Civil Rights--United States--History
Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.)
Personal narratives
Social justice
Community activists--Illinois--Chicago
Description
An account of the resource
Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives.
The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Jiménez, José, 1948-
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a>
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-04-25
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Format
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Language
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eng
spa
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Identifier
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RHC-65
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
2012-2017
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Título
Spanish language Title entry
Gamaliel Ramirez vídeo entrevista y biografía
Descripción
Spanish language Description entry
Gamaliel Ramirez nació en 1949 en South Bronx, Nueva York a padres que acababan de inmigrarse. Su familia so mudo a Chicago en 1955. Atendió la escuela de Peabody, en Augusta que era este de Ashland y oeste del I-94. En este tiempo el I-94 separaba la comunidad en dos partes, el Old Town, Lakeview y Lincoln Park en el este, y Wicker Park y Humboldt Park en el oeste. Señor Ramirez nunca fue un miembro de los Latin Kings o de los Young Lords si era amigos con unos de los miembros. Luchando con dislexia, Señor Ramirez fue forzado ah abandonar la escuela cuando tiene 16 años. Era en este momento que decidió aprender a pintar, visito el Art Institute of Chicago para aprender sobre las pinturas Europeos y luego fue con maestros para aprender sobre las pinturas Americana y Americana Latina. Señor Ramirez fue uno de los primeros de ser parte del Movimiento de Arte Latino en Chicago, y expone su arte nacional igual que internacionalmente. El hermano Señor Ramirez, Eddie Ramirez, era el coordinador asistente que estaba en cargo distritos durante la Campaña de Alderman para Jiménez. Gamaliel Ramirez ofreció trabajar con los Latin Eagles y Young Lords para limpiar la aria de drogas que en este tiempo había cambio de drogas en simple vista en las calles de Wilton y Grace Street. Los Young Lords hicieron un acuerdo con los Latin Eagles para limpiar el graffiti en el vecindario. Señor Ramirez también fue un líder en pintar los murales en la oficina de los Young Lords, por dentro y por fuera.
Sujetos
Spanish language Subject terms
Young Lords (Organización)
Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos
Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia
Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.)
Puertorriqueños--Relatos personales
Latin Kings--Illinois--Chicago
Justicia social
Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago
Artes, puertorriqueños--Illinois--Chicago
Source
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a>
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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RHC-65_Ramirez_Gamaliel
Title
A name given to the resource
Gamaliel Ramirez interview and transcript
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Ramirez, Gamaliel
Description
An account of the resource
Gamaliel Ramirez was born in 1949 in South Bronx, New York to recently arrived immigrant parents. Their family moved to Chicago in 1955. Although Mr. Ramirez was never a member, he hung around with the Latin Kings and with the Young Lords. Mr. Ramirez became one of the pioneers of the Chicago-based Latino Art Movement and has exhibited his paintings nationally and internationally. Mr. Ramirez also led the painting of murals at the Young Lords office, both outside and inside.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Jiménez, José, 1948-
Subject
The topic of the resource
Young Lords (Organization)
Puerto Ricans--United States
Civil Rights--United States--History
Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.)
Puerto Ricans--Personal narratives
Social justice
Community activists--Illinois--Chicago
Latin Kings--Illinois--Chicago
Arts, Puerto Rican--Illinois--Chicago
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video/mp4
application/pdf
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2012-05-12
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7933d7dfc4fee72266ba41eec6b9dfd6.pdf
71e1b14b6814ecb6129d57779ba6b533
PDF Text
Text
Young Lords
In Lincoln Park
Interviewee: Marie Merrill Ramirez
Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez
Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections
Date: 5/16/2012
Biography and Description
Marie Merrill Ramirez was a Young Lord in the 1970s in Milwaukee, Wisconsin where she worked closely
with Chapter leader and Minister of Education, Dr. Luis “Tony” Baez. The Milwaukee Chapter worked
within the university (UM) but primarily focused its organizing efforts in the community around
deplorable housing conditions and discrimination, youth support and development, and bilingual
education. In 1969, she and a group drove from Milwaukee to New York City to attend a major gathering
for Puerto Rican self-determination and connected with other travelers in Chicago’s Lincoln Park
neighborhood, at the Young Lords’ People’s Church headquarters.
Ms. Ramirez is currently living back in Mayaguez, where she is involved with Minh (Movimiento
Independentista Nacional Hostosiano) defending organizing rights of People, especially the workers,
who she feels is the main force capable of making true change. They formed their group May 6, 2004
out of two branches of the P.S.P. ( Puerto Rican Socialist Party). The Hostosianos want to make Puerto
Rico a free sovereign and independent nation. Minh members organize for a better education, health,
culture, jobs and housing. And they work hard to uplift activists’ awareness of the conditions. They
strongly feel that all social forces must unite, if they are to bring about any change.
�Ms. Ramirez and many others participated in the fight to evict the United States Navy from Vieques, in
defense of the environment, in the battle against Superpuerto, against the exploitation of mines in the
mountainous center of the Island, and in the struggle to free the political prisoners. During the Vieques
camp occupations, she wrote in blogs and reported about the U.S. military bombings of the Puerto Rican
Island. Then she wrote about the victory of the campers to force the United States Military to leave
Vieques. She continues to report that the struggle continues to get the U.S. to clean up their lands and
to finance health programs for Puerto Ricans dying of diseases, related to the Navy’s military
contaminations.
Ms. Ramirez helped to organize a Peace March and a 24 hour vigil in front of Filiberto Ojeda’s house at
Hormigueros, Puerto Rico, where the F.B.I. traveled from Atlanta, Georgia and shot and killed the
Freedom Fighter. She has supported the struggle for the release of the political prisoners, including
Oscar López Rivera. In 2010, she joined with sports athletes, artists, lawyers, medics, journalists,
teachers, motivational speakers, and students to welcome and support all athletes (especially the
Cuban) athletes at the Caribbean and Central American Games in Mayagüez. Even more recently, she
hosted La Tertulia, a special event for the Young Lords. It was also organized in her hometown of
Mayagüez, Puerto Rico.
�Transcript
JOSE JIMENEZ:
Okay, if you can give me your name, your birthday, where you were
born, and maybe what you have done, I mean, in terms of your [wanting the?]
status or whatever.
MARIE MERRILL RAMIREZ:Well, my name is Marie Merrill Ramirez. Nobody knows
me by Marie, only the guys, or the people that graduated with me from la
Inmaculada in Mayagüez. I’m from Mayagüez, Puerto Rico. I was born May 14,
1947. I graduated from la Inmaculada. People know me as, in the US, they
knew me as Maria. My nickname from when I was a child is Marianne. And
everybody knows me here as Marianne. They usually botch up my last name, so
they don’t know my last name. (laughs)
JJ:
What is your last name?
MMR: Merrill-Ramierz. [00:01:00] I was raised the first 10 years of my life going from
Douglaston, New York to Mayagüez, Puerto Rico. My mother, every time, had
no concept of time. So, in the middle of a semester, she would up and say, “It’s
too cold for me. Let’s go home.” And we would go home. So, I alternated
between the school in Douglaston and la Inmaculada. And as a consequence of
that, my Spanish is bad, and my English is bad. I’ve never gotten over that. La
Inmaculada was a school that had English as the basic language, and Spanish,
all we had was a Spanish class.
JJ:
la Inmaculada was here in Puerto Rico?
MMR: In Mayagüez.
1
�JJ:
But English was (inaudible).
MMR: In that point in time, [00:02:00] we had nuns. We had nuns. The nuns came
from the US, and they would teach us in English. We would have Spanish class.
We had Puerto Rican history. The only Puerto Rican history I took was when I
was a senior in high school, for one semester. Um, and it was very inadequate.
It was that old book by Miller, I forget his first name, which started with the Taíno
and finished with the US invasion of Puerto Rico. So, it was very little Puerto
Rican history. When I got to college, I wanted to go to the University of Puerto
Rico in Río Piedras. But it was a time of great activity, Independentista activity in
Río Piedras. My family is very conservative. Very conservative. And they
wouldn’t let me go to Río Piedras. I didn’t want to stay in Mayagüez precisely
because they were conservative. And I felt like I was restrained. I mean, I was
tired of going out with chaperones. And I was tired where you had to report all
the time. I wanted some kind of freedom. And so, they made me go to a Jesuit
college [00:03:00] in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, called Marquette. And I get to
Marquette.
JJ:
Did they have family there?
MMR: I had an aunt that lived in a place called Pewaukee. And so, that’s where they
got the idea of Marquette. They had had me apply to various universities. I
applied to Marquette, to Georgetown, to University of Michigan, and to the
University of Alaska. (laughs) I was accepted at all of them, but I was only
allowed to go to Marquette. When I get to Marquette, [00:04:00] it was like a
cultural clash, because even though I had lived in New York, it was a very
2
�sheltered type life. It was not in New York City; it was in Long Island. I was the
only Puerto Rican around. With my last name, I was able to pass. And nobody
asked questions. And so, when I get to Marquette, and I started seeing culture
clashes all over the place. And I started meeting Latin American women,
because on my floor, the Latin Americans were the ones that took baths every
day. And the Americans didn’t take baths every day. They would take baths on
Friday and Saturday. And so, when you were taking a bath every day, you heard
Spanish, you talked to people from Argentina, people from Venezuela, [00:05:00]
people from Uruguay. And all these women knew a lot about their history. And I
felt like I didn’t know anything about my history. And so, Marquette, at that point
in time, was an urban college, an old urban college. It hadn’t started with its
renovation projects that had completely transformed it. And we had this old
library. And the books on Puerto Rico were in the bottom of the library, in the
basement. And so, I would go to this basement that was cold and damp. Other
people wouldn’t go to the basement because it was cold and damp. They didn’t
like it. And they would tell me, “Don’t go down there. Nobody’s down there.” But
that’s where the books were. So, I would study and do my thing, and then I
would grab all the Puerto Rican history books [00:06:00] that I could. I remember
reading this huge book by Gordon K. Lewis, Freedom and Power in the
Caribbean. I remember [Michael Iglesias’s?] books. And slowly learning my
history, I was transforming myself. And what I didn’t know was that Joe
McCarthy’s papers were in that library, and they were in the basement of the
library. And the priest that was in charge of those papers was the only one that
3
�would be around there. And he would come and check, and without me being
there, he would see the books that I had on the desk, because that was the only
place that you could leave the books, and nobody would touch them, and one
day I’m sitting there reading, and this guy comes up and he looked like, you know
the Da Vinci Code? The monk in the [00:07:00] Da Vinci Code, this white
specter monk? Well, put about 30 years on that and this priest looked just like
him. And so, I looked up and I see this ghost, which then I understood why the
other people didn’t want to go down there. And I screamed. And he said, “No,
no, it’s okay. I’m Father O’Malley. It’s okay.” And so, he would come, and he
would look at the books that I was reading and then he would ask me questions.
And when people say, you know, “How did you change from being a
conservative, from being from a conservative pro-statehood family to being an
Independentista?” It was defending my positions against this very conservative
priest and learning about my history and my culture that I hadn’t learned in
Puerto Rico. It was a complete transformation for me. [00:08:00] I sat there from
September 1965 to December ’65. And in December ’65, I was an
Independentista and nobody had convinced me. So, I don’t believe in convincing
Independentistas. I think that you come to that conclusion all by yourself when
you analyze what’s going on.
JJ:
Okay, because you were going from New York to Puerto Rico, and from
Milwaukee in Marquette? So, about how many years were you there?
MMR: I was at Marquette from 1965 with a couple of breaks to 1971. In September of
’70, I went to Madison. I didn’t last at Madison. It was just [00:09:00] way too
4
�cold for me. I just couldn’t take it. The wind, and the 50 below chill factor and all
that, it was worse than Milwaukee. I just couldn’t. There was no way I could take
it.
JJ:
Where were you in Milwaukee? And what years were you in Milwaukee?
MMR: Well, the problem, I took some breaks. In 1970, my folks in Mayagüez sold a big
piece of land. I had just graduated from college, and they said, “Well, you know,
here’s a prize. Do something with it. Here’s some money. Do something with
it.” I had, at Marquette, a bunch of friends that were going to go get married and
they were from different parts, from the International Students Club. Because at
Marquette, I never quite fit in. I knew I was not American. I knew I was Puerto
Rican. [00:10:00]
JJ:
How did you know [you were different?]?
MMR: Well, I knew I was different from the other girls in the dorm. I had never
confronted racism before. When I get to Marquette, I get to this room with a girl
from New York and I walk in with my aunt and my mother. And my mother
looked just like I do now. My aunt was blonde and blue-eyed. And we started
speaking Spanish and the girl looked at me up and down and she said, “Where
are you from?” I said, “I’m from Puerto Rico.” And she said, “Oh.” And then she
left. And a day later they moved her out of the room. And I didn’t know why. In
front of me was one of the only Black women in the dorm. [00:11:00] And she
didn’t have a roommate either. And so, I was disturbed because I didn’t want my
folks to have to pay for a single room. I wanted them, you know, to pay for a
double room. So, I go to the woman in front, and I said, “Well, you know, how
5
�come this lady left?” And the girl was from Kentucky. And she said, “Honey
child, don’t you know the facts of life?” And I said, “What facts of life?” You
know, “The girl was from New York. Don’t you know the facts of life?” I said,
“No. Que paso? You know, what happened?” And she explained to me. And it
also explained why some women wouldn’t have anything to do with you and
others would. And I had never confronted that before. And so, that also
radicalized me. I remember the first picket I ever went to in my life was to the
Eagles Club in Milwaukee, [00:12:00] Wisconsin, because I was going out with
this Dominican guy, and we wanted to go to, I don’t know, some dance at the
beginning of school. And when he went to get the ticket, they wouldn’t sell him
the ticket. And then we found out that the Eagles Club didn’t accept Blacks or
Hispanics. And I got hopping mad. I have a bad temper, and so I got hopping
mad, and I went with my friend that called me honey child, we went to this picket,
and a guy from Haiti went with us. And I remember the Blacks seeing these
Puerto Ricans coming to the picket, was looking at us like, you know, “Qué pasa
que, why are you here? And so, I explained to this lady that was saying, “You
can’t come into this picket,” [00:13:00] I said, “I’m Puerto Rican. We can’t go to
this thing either. We are minorities too.” And she kind of looked at me weird.
But they let me, and they let us into the picket. And I remember that picket. It
was very cold. And I remember having -- it was my first picket. I’ve gone to
millions of pickets since then, but that was the first one I went to. And it was the
cultural clash of a Puerto Rican coming in from Puerto Rico and all of a sudden
having this brand on you that you are a minority student when in your life you’ve
6
�never been a minority student, you know? And it was a very confining brand to
me. I hated it. I didn’t like it.
JJ:
The term itself?
MMR: The term itself. I hear that they’re calling us POC now. I don’t want to be called
POC. I’m Puerto Rican. I’m Puerto Rican. I’m not Puerto Rican American,
nothing like that. I have no loyalty to the US. [00:14:00] My loyalty is here.
JJ:
Actually, I just heard that they’re coming out with a whole new station, a whole
channel for Puerto Rican Americans, Dominican Americans. That’s what they’re
using. I never heard that term before, Puerto Rican Americans.
MMR: I never heard that term Puerto Rican Americans. Years later, I had this sociology
teacher in Texas, Hirsch, Herb Hirsch. And he did stuff on racism, and he came
to me, “Puerto Rican.” No, we don’t use that term. I also feel very uncomfortable
when people say, “I’m of Puerto Rican descent.” When somebody tells me, “I’m
of Puerto Rican descent,” I’m very visual. What comes into my mind is this
propeller plane up there [00:15:00] and then this jíbaro with his, what you call it,
su pava coming down this ladder, and down there is the map of Puerto Rico.
That to me, is Puerto Rican descent. You know, I just -- it doesn’t go with me.
You’re either Puerto Rican or you’re not. It’s not a coat that you put on and off.
It’s something you were born with. You know, it’s not something to be
questioned. And people that are. That are from the States and say they’re
Puerto Rican, even, they’re born in Chicago, Timbuktu, whatever, you know, I go
with Juan Antonio Corretjer, Boricua en la luna. You identify yourself as Puerto
Rican, I accept your identification. I’m not going to, you know --
7
�JJ:
What is Boricua en la luna? I heard that that’s--
MMR: “Boricua en la luna” is a poem that Juan Antonio Corretjer wrote for the
Rodriguez sisters, Ida Luz and Alicia, that were from Chicago. And he wrote this
poem, I think, after visiting them in jail, I’m not sure. I’m not sure how he wrote
the poem. And then Roy Brown went and put beautiful music to Corretjer’s
poem. And it says, it don’t matter if you were born on the moon. You say you’re
Puerto Rican; you’re Puerto Rican. You know, you identify with what’s going on
here. You love this land. I’ll accept it. There’s too many Puerto Ricans that
were born in Puerto Rico, live in Puerto Rico, and are very sorry that they’re not
Americans. I’ve seen them. I mean, I’ve seen Puerto Rican legislators that don’t
know how to speak English yet [00:17:00] they’re statehooders. You know, I
think it’s absurd.
JJ:
So, when did you graduate?
MMR: I graduated from Marquette in ’69. By January of 1970, with the money that they
gave me, a friend of mine from the Philippines and I bought this ticket with Swiss
Air, that, it was very cheap then, that as long as you went in one direction and
started in one place and finished in the other, you could make as many stops as
you wanted. So, literally from January to, oh, I guess end of August -- no,
January to September, middle of September 1970, I went around the world, and I
visited all these different countries. You know, India, Egypt, Greece, all of
Europe, Philippines, I spent a month in Philippines, Iran, because we went to a
wedding in Iran. [00:18:00] And it was a complete learning experience. I had
gone to Europe before because as I said, my family was upper middle class.
8
�And when you’re 15 years old, they say, “Do you want a debut or what do you
want?” And I’m not a debutant type.
JJ:
What is a debut? I don’t understand.
MMR: Fifteen-year-old like quinceañera, the quinceañera. I’m not the quinceañera
type, you know, I just never been the quinceañera type. And so, my mother said,
“Well, do you want to go to Europe? Asociacion de Maestros has these summer
tours of Europe. Why don’t we do that?” And so, we had gone, and we’d gone
to Mexico, and I visited a whole bunch of places. But that was my big trip.
[00:19:00] That was my big trip. That was my big learning place. When you’re
on an island, you’re isolated and, you know, it was things I learned then I’ve been
using the rest of my life. I think it was a good choice. It was a good choice.
JJ:
So, did you receive your bachelor’s?
MMR: No, no, I. I got a bachelor’s and a master’s from Marquette. And then I went
onto -- which was included in the masters, I went in 1972 to Chile, and I went to
the Universidad Católica de Chile, and spent I guess two semesters there. I was
supposed to only spend one. And then from there, in June of 1973, after there
had been a coup attempt in Chile, [00:20:00] and the Bordaberry Uruguay had
given over the government to the military. A friend of mine and I crossed the
Andes, crossed Argentina, and went to Uruguay. And in Uruguay -- I don’t think I
really completed a semester because Uruguay was up in arms. The Tupamaros
had been wiped out.
JJ:
Who were the Tupamaros?
9
�MMR: The Tupamaros were the urban guerrillas. And today one of the head of the
Tupamaros, Jose Mujica, is now president of Uruguay. And his wife Lucia
Topolansky, who was also a Tupamaro, and they both spent 13, 14 years in jail,
are the government of Uruguay. But in that time, they were in jail already.
[00:21:00] When we got to Uruguay, there was a general strike going on. And I
went to the university because I had a student visa, and I had to do something
with my visa. But in October, an engineering student was making a bomb at the
university, and it blew up in his hands or something. So, they shut down the
university and it didn’t reopen, I think -- I’m not sure -- until the next semester.
And the next semester, I left in May. I left in May and went up to Texas. And in
Texas I completed, after many years, a doctorate. And I was a teaching
assistant there. I was an instructor there, Chicano politics. I worked with the
Chicanos there, with the Texas migrant workers. I went to Mexican American
Youth Organization, but they kicked [00:22:00] (break in audio) because I was
not a Chicana.
JJ:
That was the only reason they gave you?
MMR: Yeah.
JJ:
I recall that (inaudible).
MMR: Yeah, yeah, no, no, I wasn’t Chicana, I wasn’t Chicana, so they kicked me out of
MAYO. So, we started our own organization. We had two organizations in
Texas, and we were part of the PSP, then. Because in ’71 MPI changed to PSP.
And we had this innocuous type of graduate student organization which was
called the Puerto Rico Graduate Students in the Social Sciences. And we were
10
�the ones that did all of the political stuff. And we would make alliances with the
Blacks, the Palestinians, the Chicanos, anybody. And then there was a general
Puerto Rican organization which was more like a social organization. [00:23:00]
And in ’85, ’84, ’85, I leave Texas, come to Puerto Rico. By that time, I’d gotten
married. I had one child called Claudio [Betanze?].
JJ:
We didn’t get your parents’ names in here.
MMR: My what now?
JJ:
Your parents’ names.
MMR: Oh, my mother name is, or was, [Josefina Famili Quiles?]. My father’s name was
Ernest Merrill Schmidt.
JJ:
Josefina Famili Quiles?
MMR: Famili Quiles.
JJ:
(inaudible)
MMR: So, we’re probably familia.
JJ:
(inaudible) my sisters are married to Quiles.
MMR: Okay. Is he from Mayagüez or is he -JJ:
From here.
MMR: And my Quiles have blue eyes.
JJ:
They’re from all around, yeah. The whole block is Quiles. But then there’s some
[Loquiles?] and [00:24:00] --
MMR: Well, in back of the Mayagüez mall there’s a sector, Sector lo Quiles. And I know
that the Quiles are there from at least 1800 or more. Yeah, because it’s old.
11
�Jose Mon Quiles is the first Quiles I found there. And he lived in back of the
Mayagüez mall, and there’s a big Sava where his plantation was.
JJ:
Oh, he had a plantation.
MMR: Yeah, he had a small plantation. Yeah, he was an hacendado. And my
grandmother -JJ:
Hacendado?
MMR: A proprietor of a plantation. Okay? And my great-grandmother was his house
slave. And he was 70 years old, and he never had any kids. And all of a
sudden, he has a daughter, [00:25:00] which is my grandmother. We’re talking
about 1875 or -- yeah, because freedom came in ’78 or ’73, I have dyslexia and
the numbers with me -- okay. My grandmother was born three years before.
And at one point in time, we had the papers where he recognized her and made
her and her mother, and her sisters, who weren’t his, free. So, I tell my kids, we
know the color of our skin this generation, but we don’t know the color of our skin
other generations, you know? And if she was free, she was Black and she was
probably Indian. So, I’m white this generation, but I don’t know what [00:26:00] I
was, what color my ancestors were. And I don’t know what color my grandkids
will be, which is very Puerto Rican. I like it because here before, before they had
these things where they could look at your stomach and they tell you if it was a
girl or a boy, we had two surprises. You had the surprise of girl or boy, and what
color he’d be, or she would be. And I think that’s one of the neat things of Puerto
Rico. You know, I’m very eccentric in that, but I think so. I think so.
JJ:
And before that, (inaudible)?
12
�MMR: Well, I was going to ask you that.
JJ:
No, you were going to ask me. Let’s come back to it.
MMR: Well, where was I? Oh, [00:27:00] I was having my kids. Okay. I had another
kid in Texas. His name is Jose Gabriel Tupac. He was born in August of 1980,
and he is named after Túpac Amaru because Túpac Amaru started his
organization of his rebellion around August of 1980. November is when it was in
full swing. Didn’t last long. But I always thought Túpac Amaru was one of my
heroes.
JJ:
Now you went to the first picket, but were your parents at all activists?
MMR: No, my parents were, how do I say? I met Luis Ferré because he was in the
living room of my uncle’s house playing piano. You know, these guys were
statehooders. They were friends of [00:28:00] García Méndez. You know, they
were from the good families of Mayagüez, which I have no reverence for.
JJ:
Good family meaning they had (inaudible)?
MMR: They had some money. Yeah, my family came into money because they had
lands, and they sold the lands, and stuff like that, you know. But I had this
background. I had this background of all my youth. They were statehooders.
And in my hometown, we have two big leaders. One came much later when they
freed him, Trafalcan san Miranda. The other one was Juan Mari Brás. And I
grew up with Juan Mari Brás being the devil. And the only one that ever
defended Juan Mari Brás [00:29:00] was one of my mother’s good friends who
was his aunt, Doña Mayan. And when the old ladies would get together and talk
and whatever, and Doña Mayan was there, she would stand up, if they said
13
�anything against Juan Mari Brás, she said, “(Spanish), [00:29:19] don’t touch
Jonnie,” which was his nickname. So, for me, at my house, that was bad. That
was the devil. You didn’t even touch them, you know, you had respect for Doña
Mayan, because, after all, it was not her fault that she was his aunt, you know,
but it was there.
JJ:
So, this is in Mayagüez?
MMR: This is in Mayagüez.
JJ:
So, he’s from Mayagüez.
MMR: Juan Mari Brás is from Mayagüez. The Mayagüezanos are like the Viequesens.
The Viequesens are very exclusive, very, “Yo soy de Vieques, yo soy
Viequesens” [00:30:00], [00:30:01] and the Mayagüezanos are very
Mayagüezanos. And Juan Mari Brás and Mingo Vega and a lot of the people.
And Pupa, Pupa, Traval, Nazario, and Trafalcan san Miranda are all from
Mayagüez. And if you hear them talk, Mayagüez is going to come up there in
some reference. Because we’re proud of being Mayagüezanos, you know? And
we’re very Mayagüezanos. We, no matter where we are, we are Mayagüezanos.
And you could see it in the discourse of the MPI, that was the Movimiento Pro
Independencia was founded in Mayagüez. And in a very Puerto Rican twist, it
was founded in whatchamacallit, Pupa, [00:31:00] Providencia Trabal is a
spiritualist, a medium. And MPI was founded in Pupa’s house, which was the
Centro Espiritista.
JJ:
(inaudible)?
14
�MMR: No, no, it was el Centro. It was where she had her seances and stuff. She said,
“Well, you know, El Centro is big enough to have these people here,” so the 11th
of January, I think it was 1959, Mayagüezanos, or people from all stripes
gathered at El Centro Espiritista of Pupa. And they founded the MPI. And what
is interesting is that when you look at the FBI COINTELPRO papers, they have
no idea that the MPI was founded the 11th of January. So, it tells me that none of
the folks there was a chota, was a stool pigeon.
JJ:
(inaudible)?
MMR: They put the founding of the MPI in the more public meeting in Ponce, [00:32:00]
six or seven months later. But by that time there was something like 20 MPI
missions all around Puerto Rico. And so, Mayagüezanos have always been
proud of, you know, we are more liberal than the rest. [Fort Lares?] in 1868, the
bulk of the people came from Mayagüez. And when you look at the people that
are arrested, you see Mayagüez, Mayagüez, Mayagüez. Maybe it’s because it’s
the farthest from the capital, or because during that time the economy of Puerto
Rico was in the west, it was not in the population. It was not in San Juan. When
you look at 1820, 1868, and you look at the population figures, San Germán is
the largest town. Mayagüez is bigger than San Juan. San Germán is bigger
than [00:33:00] San Juan. San Juan is just an administrative center. It’s only
after that and a little before the 1880s that San Juan gets prominence, and after
the US invasion, San Juan gets prominence. But before that Puerto Rican
history, the people were in the west, they weren’t in San Juan. San Juan was the
administration. So, that maybe that explains a little bit of what Mayagüezanos
15
�feel, because we have -- if you look at all the municipalities in the west, each of
the municipalities in the west have their [proced?]. San Germán, [Loíza?],
Añasco, Mariana, Mayagüez has Hostos, has [Huskevara?]. Now we have Juan
Mari.
JJ:
Of course, that’s (inaudible). [00:34:00]
MMR: Yeah, we have important people that were Independentistas, and they came
from those towns. [Omniveras?] has [Louis Bebes?], Aguadilla has [Diego?].
The west has their proced.
JJ:
And Hostos, you said, was where?
MMR: Hostos is from Mayagüez. Eugenio María de Hostos was born in Río Cañas,
Caguas. And Juan Cruz Rivera, which we called El General, fought in Cuba in
the war for independence. He got to be general in that war. He was the general
[Empinandez Rio?]. He got to be governor of La Havana. They made a special
law in Cuba allowing him to take a position in the Cuban government, even
though he was from Puerto Rico. So, we have that history. And the MPI was
formed in Mayagüez. And to this day, Mayagüez has a different kind of
atmosphere than the rest of Puerto Rico. The left in Mayagüez [00:35:00] has a
higher tendency of working together than the left where the leaders are in San
Juan.
JJ:
Because they’re closer, or because of what?
MMR: Because it’s the same shoes in the street. When we have a demonstration and I
look to the side, I see the guy from PIP. I see Luis Ibrahim next to me. When I
look and I see the, whatchamacallit, [Gisela?] from [Miya Mesete?] on the other
16
�side. I see the guys from La Nueva Escuela. I see [Don Gila?] and the old
nationalists there. When we call a demonstration, everybody comes. There’s no
such thing of, “Oh, MINH called a demonstration. Let’s not go.” We work
together. We like to work together. And in the mother organizations in San
Juan, [00:36:00] especially in PIP and MINH, they look at us like, “You can do
that? We can’t. You can do that?” Right now, at this point in time, there’s a bust
of de Diego be in front of the college in Mayagüez. The rector of the college said
that that bust wasn’t his, he wasn’t going to take care of it. So, [Manuele
Escuela?], El MINH and El PIP are the ones that went, and we put flowers
around the bust. We go every month and cut the grass. We put the flowers nice.
And it’s everybody. FUPI is in on this too. If the group was founded in
Mayagüez and the people there are from [00:37:00] Mayagüez, we work
together. If the group has a lot of people from San Juan, you have some
problems, but not many. Not many. Because we have all realized that if we
don’t work together, you’re just going to have six or seven people at a picket.
That’s not that good.
JJ:
Back in the ’60s, when the Young Lords started in Chicago, the only thing we
heard about was MPI (inaudible), but we knew almost nothing. We just kind of
knew their names. We knew they were protesting and that. But what were some
of the actions that they were taking and why, during the ’60s?
MMR: MPI during the ’60s? During the ’60s, the Movimiento Pro Independencia, there
was the controversy of the minds, in [00:38:00] Adjuntas and Utuado where MPI,
led by Juan Mari Brás, and with the help of many other organizations, literally
17
�won that fight. The young people went door to door in Adjuntas and Utuado.
Alexis Massol and his people were there. And they literally prevented open pit
mining in the middle of Puerto Rico because there was copper there. There was
also the controversy of the super port in Aguadilla. And there it was PIP, MPI
and a whole bunch of -JJ:
What’s a super port? What was it?
MMR: They were going to make a really huge super port where these big boat tankers
and stuff could go. And it would have ruined the bay in Aguadilla. And that was
another fight. There was also the fight against the Vietnam War. There was also
the whole bunch of student protests at that time against ROTC, which [00:39:00]
FUPI, which at that point in time, FUPI was very close to MPI.
JJ:
I knew the building was burned down.
MMR: The building was burned down. Antonia Martinez was killed.
JJ:
How did that happen? I remember hearing --(inaudible)
MMR: Okay, there were people running down the streets, these little streets of Río
Piedras, she’s on a balcony. She sees this cop beat somebody up. She yells
down, “Don’t beat him up. You’re a moron,” or something like that. Guy went
and shot her. What is really interesting about this is that the cops involved in
that, that never came out publicly, but we know, were El Amolao, who was later
mayor of Cataño [00:40:00] and the mayor of Canóvanas now were those two
cops. And there was also, at that point in time, in Puerto Rico, there’s always
been these mobs, okay? And in the turn of the century, they call them the turba
republicanos, the republican mob. And it was turn of the century when Barbosa
18
�and Muñoz Rivera were around. Barbosa literally paid these guys; his name was
Jose Mauleon. And Jose Mauleon would follow Muñoz Rivera everywhere he
went and burn and break into and a whole bunch of things. And these mobs had
their successors in the 1960s commanded by a guy called [Palerm?]. They
called him El General [00:41:00] Palerm. And at one point in time, the MPI
headquarters was at -- I think it was ’69, I’m not sure -- Dates and me don’t -headquarters was in the Plaza of Rio Piedras. The mob surrounded the Plaza de
Rio Piedras with the police watching, and they were shooting, literally shooting,
inside the building. Some people were shot. And they were going to burn the
building down. And there is a story going on around that somebody, I don’t know
if it’s [Gadissa?], somebody called, had the phone number of Rosarito Ferré, who
was the daughter of the Governor Ferré at that time. They got to her, she got to
her father, her father got the people out. Told his people -- his people [00:42:00]
-- told his people that that was too much, to get out. There was also, oh,
something about [Chepa Delitisi?] has this in a book. And there was, I think it
was something like 157 incidents of, whatchamacallit, of statehooders and their
repression against Independentistas, and Impresora Nacional, the printing press
of Claridad was bombed I don’t know how many times, was set afire I don’t know
how many times.
JJ:
So, you mean the statehooders were doing what (overlapping dialogue;
inaudible)?
MMR: The statehooders were exactly -- no, they were Escuadrón de la -- there were
murder squads in the Puerto Rican police that was pro-statehood. Alejo
19
�Maldonado, Cerro Maravilla, [00:43:00] [Caraballo?], who was a labor leader,they
found him tortured in El Yunque. They killed [Muñoz Barela?] in 19 -- I think it
was ’77, ’78, Muñoz Barela was a Cuban that had come to Puerto Rico when he
was very young, and he was in [barria Antonio marcello?], he started the travel
agency to have Cubans go to Cuba. And they killed him. And it was Cuban
exiles together with the extreme right. And in that extreme right were [Granados
Navedo?], [Mesla Dorondo?], a guy that they took out of Puerto Rico after he
was pointed at, his name is Diaz Olmos, Luis Felipe, [00:44:00] or something
Felipe Diaz Olmos. They called him [Aype?]. Freddy Valentin, from Mayagüez.
In Mayagüez in 11th of (break in audio) 1975, Doris Pizarro is the head of PSP in
Mayagüez at the time. Freddy Valentín comes by -- you should interview Doris
on this, and she’ll tell you, Freddy Valentín would come by and say, “Hey, I left
you a little present, I left you a little present.” And Doris and everybody went all
around the plaza, all the buildings around the plaza looking for the damn present.
A little bit down from the plaza was a place called Central Drive-In, that was
owned by [Mulet?] who is the father of Elaine [Mulet?] which is the
communications leader in MINH, now. And in the garbage can there was a bomb
and the bomb went off. [00:45:00] It injured 11 people, it killed two- Milli
Hughes’s husband, [Chabanje?] and one of the workers in the Central Drive-In.
There was drive by shootings all the time. And this was the Puerto Rican right
with the Cuban exiles, Abdallah was in on it, and the FBI and Puerto Rican
police. This was all part of COINTELPRO.
JJ:
So, the FBI was doing drive-by shootings?
20
�MMR: Yeah, Cerro Maravilla, the FBI was watching. The FBI was there. They would
create these groups that they said that were terrorist groups, they weren’t, to
confuse everybody. They were in on it. COINTELPRO shows it. They were in
on it. They were in on Cerro Maravilla only we haven’t touched them. [00:46:00]
JJ:
They would create terrorist groups?
MMR: They would create terrorist groups that would do terrorist acts, and then they
would say that it was the left when it was the right.
JJ:
It was them, basically.
MMR: The left was doing things, but it was confusing. You couldn’t figure out who had
done what.
JJ:
In the United States, they brought provocateurs that would go to demonstrations
and create riots.
MMR: Here in Puerto Rico, they had them.
JJ:
They had groups.
MMR: Yeah, here in Puerto Rico, Alejandro Gonzalez Malavé was the guy from,
whatchamacallit, from Cerro Maravilla. He was recruited when he was 13 years
old.
JJ:
Actually, we did have the Young Lords, there was a group that were called the
Comancheros that wore blue berets. We wore purple. And they were next door
to our church in Chicago, which is what you’re saying. But they were not
sophisticated.
MMR: No, no, these guys were sophisticated. These guys were sophisticated. That
Puerto Rican police [00:47:00] with the FBI, with the knowledge of the FBI, went
21
�and recruited at least five 13-, 14-year-olds, because at that point in time, we had
a student organization called FEPI, which was in the high schools. FUPI was for
college, FEPI was for the high school. They would go to intermediate school and
recruit. They recruited five, at least five. At least five, which is something that I’d
never seen in any of the papers or anything in the US, nothing. Nothing like that.
Then we had Claridad. And Claridad, in a sense, saved the movement a lot of
times because all those anonymous letters, remember the anonymous letters
that COINTELPRO would put out all over the place?
JJ:
Could you [00:48:00] explain a little bit about --
MMR: COINTELPRO, Counter Intelligence Program by the FBI started in the ’50s with
the Communist Party, went on to the Socialist Workers Party, and the third one
that came in, in 1961, was the Puerto Rican Independence Movement. And
before then the FBI had this other program, which is called COINFILE, which was
to get information. And so, they had files on all the Puerto Rican leaders since
the beginning of time, even since the Spanish times. Since the Spanish times,
Puerto Rican Independentistas have been persecuted. In Spanish times, we
know of Betances, and we know when Betances came from Paris, he was exiled
in Paris, but he came in 1880 on a trip to the Caribbean. At that point, the port of
call for everybody [00:49:00] was St. Thomas. And the Spanish had police in St.
Thomas. When Betances gets to St. Thomas, a Spanish man-o-war follows his
little boat everywhere he goes through the Caribbean for at least three or four
months. And then when he comes back to St. Thomas and goes to Spain, the
boat, the Spanish ship left. But can you imagine what that would cost, or what
22
�that cost the Spanish in that time to follow around one man with a whole boat, to
the Dominican Republic, to Haiti, to the places that he went to in the Caribbean.
The Puerto Rican Independence Movement has been repressed since before
1868, since the 1820s, since the time when we had María Mercedes Barbudo,
who was a woman of 50 years old. She was a merchant in San Juan. She was
pro-independence. She was a friend of [00:50:00] Bolívar’s. And she had to be
exiled- or the Spanish put her in jail in Cuba and then she went into exile in
Venezuela. And today she is buried in the cathedral in Venezuela. And since
the time of María Mercedes Barbudo. So, when people tell me, “Well, there’s so
few Independentistas,” I say, “Well, it’s a miracle that we’re still around.” Juan
Mari Brás, leader of PSP, MPI, they would follow him 24 hours a day. If you look
at FBI papers and you see something called “June Mail,” that’s the one they’re
following 24 hours a day. They would go to the schools where his kids were.
They would tell him, “You know that that guy is a son of Juan Mari Brás?” And
the worst thing they did to Juan Mari Brás, in March of, I think it was 1976, they
killed his eldest son. [00:51:00]
JJ:
I read something about that.
MMR: Yeah, Santiago Mari Pesquera. He was 23 years old. He was a pilot. This
Cuban exile said that he had killed him. But the Cuban exile that said that was
crazy. He didn’t know how to drive. And so, the question is, how did he get
Santiago Mari Pesquera’s body from Coupe de Caguas], which is quite a ways.
And the FBI knows who killed him, knows who said that would kill him, and what
they wanted to do was destroy the movement and destroy the head of the
23
�movement at that point. The most effective head of the movement at that point,
and he was Juan Mari Brás. And he was from Mayagüez. When I did my
dissertation, I did my dissertation on FBI [00:52:00] COINTELPRO. I organized
his papers. He was my friend. Until the day he died at the last week of March.
He was completely depressed. You could not go to his house then, because his
eldest son had been killed. And he felt like his eldest son, “He was killed
because of me.” Okay? And in all this time, as a reaction to all this stuff, we had
a series of guerrilla groups that were here in Puerto Rico. The first was CAL,
Commando Armadas de Liberación Nacional. After he died, his son, Juan Raul
Mari Pesquera revealed that one of the heads of CAL [00:53:00] had been Juan
Mari Brás. The guy that signed all the communiques was Alfonso Beal. Beal,
the last name comes from the [dances Albizo?]. Alfonso was a name of one of
Juan Mari Brás’s antepasados. But CAL did not have one leader. It had a group
of leaders. And we’ve lost some of them. Others are still alive. So, we don’t say
-- CAL was never penetrated. It would do things like when the first supermarkets
came into Puerto Rico, because the supermarkets took away so many jobs of
Puerto Ricans. They would blow them up and do other types of actions. After
that, we had Ejército Popular Boricua, or Los Macheteros, which was headed by
Filiberto Ojeda Ríos, [00:54:00] who was killed in 2005, September 23, in
Hormigueros, and whose house, a group of people from the west, many
organizations, take care of the house to this day. Cha-Cha, if you ever want to
go to the house, we can do that. But it’s been a big struggle in Puerto Rico. And
I think that I saw a film on COINTELPRO in Puerto Rico the other day, and it
24
�ignored most of the struggle here on the island. It concentrated on Chicago and
New York. But the struggle has been here. The struggle has been here when an
Independentista knows that to be an Independentista it costs you. You don’t get
money from the movement. You give money for [00:55:00] the movement. You
get satisfaction of doing something that is good for your soul, good for your
conscience, but you don’t get satisfaction of money. The Puerto Rican left is not
like the US left that goes to foundations and this. No, no, no. We make our own
stuff. For example, me, in Mayagüez, has a little house. We pay water and light
for the little house by going and recycling cans. And it’s worked. We tell the
companeros when they come on Wednesday to the meetings, bring your cans.
And they do. And because of the circumstances that Puerto Rico is passing
now, many of our members pay their dues in cans. That’s fine. You know? You
don’t have the money, fine. Give me your cans. Go around your neighborhood
and get your cans. And for two years we’ve been able to pay light and water with
cans. [00:56:00] We also have a bazaar, which this Friday we’re having a
bazaar, which is things that donated. Folks donated, and we don’t sell anything
more than 10 dollars. The clothes go for a dollar. FUPI comes, every once in a
while, and gets T-shirts and stuff for a dollar. The people in the neighborhood
are now patronizing, I think. We also have doctors and nurses from MINH, which
are usually busy doing their things and can’t come to the meetings or can’t give
much time, yet they give us three hours a month. And we’ve been going to
different barrios in Mayagüez and doing a simple health fair, where you take
blood pressure, sugar, oxygen count, the sugar, diabetes count.
25
�JJ:
So, you’re (inaudible).
MMR: Yeah, we have that program. [00:57:00]
JJ:
That was [started by you guys?].
MMR: Yeah. What we do with the health program is we go with our tarp, we put it up,
we put our MINH sign in back, because we don’t go to a place without identifying
ourselves. Because we found out that if you go to a place, you don’t say you’re
Independentista, you don’t say you’re MINH, and then later the people find out,
they don’t like it. So, we are honest. We go with that. We go with a whole
bunch of information on health and with our little thing that’s called [Capá
Prieto?], our monthly magazine called Capá Prieto. And we have a special Capá
Prieto for the health fair. We have Hostos, who is from Mayagüez, on one side,
and Juan Mari Brás, who is from Mayagüez, on the other. And then we go with
this little oposculo, a little flyer, that says “MINH health policy.” [00:58:00] But we
have about 25 things on diabetes, on hypertension, on anything heart, bad
circulation, cancer, anything like that. That’s the bulk of our information. We
have three things that are MINH. The banner and the two informations. And this
is our fourth or fifth time and we’ve been through there. And the least amount of
people that we have helped out is 50. I think that’s great. And then we have a
program of [See Me?], a film, film in the plaza, which we have the second Friday
of each month, and we have a Puerto Rican film there. And we advertise it, and
we put it right in the middle of the plaza. The mayor has been good enough to
give us 50 plastic chairs. And we just put our screen up, put our whatever it is
up, and we do a film that was made in Puerto Rico. What we did this month was
26
�on [00:59:00] [Carlo Pescavara?], and his campaign to free him from 31 years of
prison. And then each month, we have a [Bien asustado?], which is on different
topics. We’ve talked about the Marshall Islands; we’ve talked about the new
political parties that are coming in. We talked about corruption in Puerto Rico
and what it costs you, anything. And we have that in the law faculty in
Mayagüez. I don’t know how much more time we’ll have it there because it looks
like Ana G. Mendez, the private university, is going to take it over. That’s
something we’re going to fight.
JJ:
Ana G. Mendez is (inaudible)?
MMR: Yeah, Ana G. Mendez is like this big pulpo that comes in and takes everything
over. And the faculta is important to us because it was literally [01:00:00] a
Mayagüez movement of lawyers and other activists to do a law faculty that
concentrated on social justice.
JJ:
I wanted to --
MMR: Let’s go back to the Young Lords.
JJ:
Yeah, let’s talk about the Young Lords here, but before that, can you mention a
little bit about the letters (inaudible)? There’s (inaudible) on COINTELPRO, you
were talking about some letters that were being sent out.
MMR: Okay. There were a whole bunch of anonymous letters that were being sent out
accusing various leaders of doing various things, of robbing the organization, of
going out with women that weren’t their wives, anything they could get their
hands on. And these letters in the Black Panther movement resulted in fights,
resulted in murders. But here we had Claridad. [01:01:00] And Claridad is now
27
�the oldest newspaper in Puerto Rico. It’s going to be 51 years old. And Claridad
had two sections. They had section that said, “Know your stool pigeon,” (Conoce
su chota?). [01:01:14] And in the various towns, when they found one of these
police provocateurs, they would get the picture and publish it in Claridad so that
you would know your stool pigeon. And then they would take these anonymous
letters, and they would publish.
JJ:
Sort of like we call pick of the month, pick of the year.
MMR: Yeah, pick of the year, pick of the month. And then they had, they would take
these letters, these anonymous letters, and publish them and say, “This is the
CIA letter.” But before they published the letters, it’s very interesting with the
independence movement, [01:02:00] because the leaders on top are all fighting.
But when you go to the different towns, the people in the towns many times react
like we do in Mayagüez. We know the other guys; we respect the other guys.
We fight with the other guys, but we know that they’re more attuned to us than
somebody else. And so, they would go with the letters to the different
organizations, and they would say, “This is signed by your organization. Would
you please find out if you guys wrote it?” And so, the guys from the bottom, the
rank and file, would go, and they would find out if these letters or these
anonymous letters were written by their group. If not, they would come back and
say, “No, we didn’t write it.” And the other group would be tolerant enough to
accept this, okay? And then it would be published in Claridad, and they’d say,
“This is a CIA letter.” They always referred to the CIA. [01:03:00] They didn’t
refer to the FBI.
28
�JJ:
This is during the ’60s.
MMR: This is during the ’60s. So, the fights between the Socialist League, and the MPI,
and the Nationalists, yeah, fights occurred. But a whole bunch of fights that the
FBI wanted to provoke did not occur.
JJ:
So, there was no split in MPI.
MMR: There were splits.
JJ:
Like, general splitting, (inaudible)?
MMR: There were splits, but usually they were conscious of who’s the enemy, and they
were -- it’s not like Martin Luther King, when he would go and somebody would
go and try and find a job at the SCLC, and he would go to the local FBI office and
he’d say, “Would you see if this guy is good or not?” Never think of that. This
guy’s the enemy. You don’t go to the FBI for anything. They are the enemy. We
knew who the enemy was, and we knew they were attacking. [01:04:00]
Something like the American Indian Movement. I never saw anything of going
and vetting this guy. No. They knew who the enemy was. They knew it was the
FBI, CIA, whatever. It was the Yankee. They knew that. And so, they were
going to defend against the Yankee, and they would pull ranks. Sometimes this
happened, sometimes -- one of the most glaring references that I found in my
work was Juan Angel Silén? Juan Angel Silén in 1967, I think he was head of
FUPI, two or three organizations. He was also in MPI. He was also the young
guy that they put in charge of the first plebiscite, which is interesting because the
FBI intervened in that plebiscite actively. And Silén, what they did was Silén
didn’t have a car. Juan Mari had a car, but it was like the community car. Juan
29
�Mari would lend it out to anybody because Juan Mari [01:05:00] was the kind of
leader that he would command, but he would go. And he was the first one to go.
And he would go to every barrio, and he would go to every micro meeting, and
he would be there. Very little private life as I could see during those days. He
would, you know, not like some leaders that command and sit back, and “You
guys will do it, I’ll sit back here.” No, no, no. Juan Mari commanded and went.
Mando e fue. And then, what happened in ’67 with Silén was, that the FBI and
it’s in the papers, went to Detroit, Michigan and got the key to the Ford, whatever
it was, something Ford that Juan Mari had, used the key to enter the car and put
some very [01:06:00] compromising papers in there. It’s a snitch jacket, is what
it’s called.
JJ:
Snitch?
MMR: Snitch jacket, where you take somebody who is really with the organization and
try to prove that he is (break in audio) and the big snitch jacket that I found in the
papers was Juan Angel Silén. And what the FBI did was they put a series of
papers in Juan Mari’s car so that Juan Mari would find it and think that Silén was
a snitch jacket. But Juan Mari was a very tolerant and astute leader. He read
the papers, he called in Silén, and said, “Silén, this was planted by the FBI.
They’re after you. They want us to separate.” Okay? And the papers were
based on a series of legitimate differences that Juan Angel Silén and Juan Mari
had. Because at that point in time, the youth were saying that the MPI was
[01:07:00] too bourgeois. And they were with Mao, they were Maoist. So, what
they did was they made a pact, and they said, “We will not separate. We will not
30
�look at our differences until after the plebiscite,” which was in July 1967. “We will
continue with our campaign to boycott the plebiscite,” which is a very successful
campaign. PIP joined in that campaign. And that is also interesting because the
FBI had a stool pigeon in PIP. He was Concepción de Gracia’s chauffeur. So,
they knew everything that Concepción de Gracia was doing. And Concepción de
Gracia and Juan Mari Brás had not spoken to each other for years. But in 1966,
when the plebiscite came along, Juan Mari went to Concepción’s house,
[01:08:00] and they made common cause. And there’s a very famous FBI paper
saying, “We have to split this up,” whatever. And they did. They tried to do it.
They also got this university professor, Hector Alvarez Silva, to run the plebiscite.
And Hector Alvarez Silva did. The rumor is, and I’ve never been able to verify
this, that they held something over Hector Alvarez Silva’s head, concerning one
of his sons. I’ve heard it from five or six people, but it’s never been truly
confirmed. And that that’s why he ran a campaign, but it wasn’t really a
campaign. It was just something there so that independence would appear in
that plebiscite. But the history of repression in Puerto Rico is great. Is great.
And I think this [01:09:00] CONINTELFILE or COINETLPRO film should have a
second part which goes to Puerto Rico. And I don’t know, I feel like I’m like a lot
of Puerto Ricans that were raised on the island comfortably. When we go to the
United States and confront what’s happening there and the limitations they put,
because I always felt like it was something that they were trying to limit my
possibilities to do what I wanted, this box that they put in -- you know, you are a
minority. I remember when I was in UT, one of the professors, a really nice
31
�liberal professor -- I mean, he didn’t do this on purpose -- he introduced me to
another professor from another department, and he said, “Maria is our Puerto
Rican professor.” So, the next time I had to introduce him, I said, “Bill is our
white professor.” [01:10:00] And he looked at me like, “What did I do?” And it
was not conscious on his part. He didn’t want to offend me. And, you know, I
kept on saying, “Listen, man, I don’t have Puerto Rican tattooed on my forehead.
Because I am Puerto Rican, I do a whole bunch of things because that’s my
culture and that’s the way I do it. But I don’t represent all of Puerto Rico. I’m just
me.” But they kept on trying to put you in this box of minority. I don’t know if that
happened to you, Cha-Cha, you were raised there. But to me, it was chocante.
JJ:
I don’t know, when we were (inaudible).
MMR: It was chocante. And I don’t think I would have been radicalized, maybe I would
have been radicalized if I’d gone to the UPI. But going to the US radicalized me,
showed me that we were different. We were not part of that empire. They were
not us, you know? [01:11:00] And it’s not a bad thing that I’m saying. I’m not
anti-Yankee. I can’t be. I go to sleep with a Yankee next to me all for the past 35
years. But I’m different. I like the difference. You know? it’s not that I don’t like
you, it’s just that I like what I am. I like the difference. I like being from an island.
I like the fact that when I go up north and it’s dead winter, I get desperate
because I don’t see any light, you know? I like it. I like to be what I am. But the
Young Lords, for me, was a learning experience. It was a big learning
experience. First of all, we had a very good leader. Tony Baez. Oh, Antonio
Baez, PhD. [01:12:00]
32
�JJ:
The University of Milwaukee, right?
MMR: Milwaukee, yes.
JJ:
(inaudible)
MMR: And we went to, as far as I can remember, in my memory, this is what, 40 years,
50 years ago?
JJ:
Yeah, seems right.
MMR: Casi, casi. We went to two big demonstrations. We went to one in New York,
which we went to -- like I said, we went to Chicago in this Volkswagen. You
weren’t there. And we went to New York for a UN thing. We also went to New
York for -- and I don’t know if you were there or not, because we went in several
cars.
JJ:
No, I heard about the big demonstration in New York.
MMR: Okay. But we went to a Puerto Rican Day parade.
JJ:
In Chicago.
MMR: No. Well, I think we went to one in Chicago, but we also went to one in New
York. Were you there?
JJ:
No, no, no. I missed a few things. [01:13:00] (laughter)
MMR: I remember those two demonstrations. I remember going to Chicago for, I think it
was a Puerto Rican Day parade where we marched military style, Young Lords,
putting on that -- our hat was black. At least that’s what I had. Our hat was
black.
JJ:
It might have been New York, (inaudible) but we did march in Chicago, also.
MMR: Yeah. And I remember going to the funeral. Okay.
33
�JJ:
We had a very big (inaudible) in Chicago (inaudible), during the Days of Rage of
SDS.
MMR: Okay. Yeah, yeah. During that trial.
JJ:
The trial of Bobby Seale?
MMR: Bobby Seale’s trial, right.
JJ:
Oh, no. We weren’t in Chicago. We were (inaudible).
MMR: Okay. We went to that trial, but it was so packed. We never got in.
JJ:
Right, we were outside.
MMR: Okay. We were outside. So, packed, we never got in. We went there. I think I
saw you twice. [01:14:00]
JJ:
So, I was there. I was there.(overlapping dialogue; inaudible)
MMR: I think one of the times was you showed us the breakfast program at the church
in the Armitage.
JJ:
Dayton and Armitage, yeah.
MMR: Yeah. Then I later found out that the reverend and his family were killed.
JJ:
The Reverend Bruce Johnson was murdered, and it’s still a cold case, we still
don’t know what happened, stabbed about 17 times, and his wife nine times.
MMR: Oh, I remember him. And I remember the breakfast program, and I remember
that they told us that the Black Panthers had help you set it up.
JJ:
(overlapping dialogue; inaudible)
MMR: I remember some kind of meeting with Mark Hampton.
JJ:
Fred Hampton.
34
�MMR: Fred Hampton. Did we go to some meeting with Fred Hampton where Fred
Hampton spoke?
JJ:
We went to several meetings (inaudible).
MMR: Okay. I remember some kind of meeting with Fred Hampton. [01:15:00]
Because I remember seeing him in person. In the Young Lords in Milwaukee, I
was just one of many. I would come in from Marquette for the meetings. When
Tony Baez said to do something, I would do it. The big thing that we did in
Milwaukee that still stands today is we picketed. I don’t remember if he picketed
every day, or if it was just one day a week. But I would come in one day a week
from Marquette. I would take the bus. And I remember being on a picket with
Tony Baez. Sometimes it was Tony Baez and I, and two more. Sometimes it
was a lot of people. But he was a persistent cuss, very persistent. And he got
what it was called the Spanish Outreach Center, which is a program for Puerto
Ricans to go at UWM in Milwaukee, which still goes today. And Tony Baez was
the first director for many, many years. [01:16:00] And the program worked
because I met many Puerto Ricans that went through this program where they
would get into the university, they would give them tutoring, they would give them
help, they would give them help with correction of English, all sorts of help so that
the student could progress and finish. And I know a whole bunch of people that
did. I know that Baez is not there anymore.
JJ:
(inaudible)
MMR: In the year 2000, I went back, and I was very disappointed. Tony Baez wasn’t
there anymore. The people that were at the Spanish or at whatever it’s called
35
�now, were what I call professional Puerto Ricans. Not Puerto Ricans that are
professional, but that their profession is to be Puerto Rican. [01:17:00] (laughter)
JJ:
To raise funding? To get money or what?
MMR: No, you see them in academia sometimes. You see them in administrations of
universities sometimes.
JJ:
(inaudible)
MMR: No, but haven’t you seen them? Haven’t you kind of come across people that,
you know, their thing in life is to be Puerto Rican, to be a professional Puerto
Rican and to grab that job because of that?
JJ:
It’s like we call them poverty pimps. But now, it’s professional Puerto Rican.
MMR: For me, it was a professional Puerto Rican. I walked in, asked for their program,
stuff like that. They completely ignored me. They wouldn’t attend me. I was just
one of many. I have three kids that went through UWM, and they tell me that
sometimes the program worked for them, sometimes it didn’t. It was much more
of a social thing. That wasn’t why we picketed for a whole year, [01:18:00] sun,
rain and snow. We picketed for a social justice program where our folks could
get through UWM and become professionals. Not for somebody to have fiesta
here and fiesta there. And I was just very disappointed. I went a second time
with one of my friends that’s a professor there. And when he introduced me as
doctor, it worked. (laughs) But since I never use it -- I would say it was very
disappointing. It was like, you know, why did I picket all those hours? Why did I
freeze my toes off for this if this is what it comes out to be 20 years later? But
then I saw Tony Baez, and he’s the head, or he’s the principal of a school for kids
36
�[01:19:00] that don’t make it in any other high school in Milwaukee. And he’s
doing a great job. And he brings people in to talk on architecture and a whole
bunch of stuff. And it kind of redeemed it for me. So, that’s it.
JJ:
Any final, final thoughts, anything I’ve forgotten?
MMR: Final thoughts? Well, I think my ambition is to be like Juan Mari. My ambition is
to stay in the fight for independence and social justice until I close my eyes. You
know, my ambition -- I think that this young generation has a lot to teach us.
They have a lot of things that they know that the old folks don’t know. And I don’t
see them as being, you know, my grandchildren or my children and pat, pat. No,
I see them as companeros and companeras. And I’m so happy [01:20:00] to say
companeras, because there are women coming in. And I see that I can learn
from them, and they can learn from me, and we’re on an even keel here.
JJ:
So, you’re not talking about retiring, and handing over the torch?
MMR: No, no. I like my life. I like my life. I’m 65.
JJ:
Them joining with you or you joining with them?
MMR: Yeah, sometimes on a picket, I’m the oldest one. But I remember when we went
to -- when Obama came, we took over el Morro.
JJ:
I feel like they didn’t make plans (inaudible).
MMR: What?
JJ:
I feel like they didn’t make plans (inaudible).
MMR: Yeah. I mean, Obama came, we took over el Morro. We had a group of people
inside. We were supposed to make a fuss outside, a big fuss outside, so that the
people would think that the action was outside. We were supposed to make a
37
�big fuss. My part in this, [01:21:00] as I was explained by my FUPI colleagues
and [Menjesquala?] colleagues, was to walk through San Juan with two banners
and a bullhorn so that people wouldn’t see it. So, I, old lady walked from one end
of San Juan to the other with the pancarta and bullhorn and the conciernas, the
chants that we were going to say. And I was supposed to give the pancarta to
the young folks, I was supposed to give the bullhorn to one of the girls, and they
were supposed to proceed on from there. And I was supposed to go to the side
and watch on. That was my role. When I get there, I can visually see -- if I had
been somebody that was watching, [01:22:00] I could see, I could point out all
the people that were going to go to the demonstration. I thought, don’t send
folks, you know, young people that don’t know how to fly kites. So, I sit there
with my sandwich and my book and I’m reading. I had a fabulous time with the
breeze of el Morro, and everything. When it comes time, I go, I hand the bullhorn
over. We pull out the pancarta. I go to this one girl, I said, “Okay, this is your
job. I’m leaving.” “No, no, I can’t do it.” You know, I go, [efopista?]? They can’t
chant? Que lo que pasa que? And I will go to the next girl. “Hey, here, this is
what you’ve got to do.” “No, no, I can’t do it. I’m scared.” And I go to the next
girl. “Oh, no.” So, it ends up old lady screaming her guts out in front of el Morro
with all these young people around me. That was not supposed to be. I was not
supposed to do that. And then finally, after half an hour of screaming, one of the
girls [01:23:00] got up enough courage and came over. “I can do it now.” But I
feel that maybe that was my role. You know, what can they do to an old lady?
Put her in jail? Make her the heroina nacional? [01:23:16] You know, what can
38
�they do to me now? Okay? My future is what? It’s the struggle. I live for the
struggle. The struggle gives me youth. I’m not at home cleaning my house -which by the way, is dirty -- doing nothing, or reading a book. I get to go to the
pickets in San Juan. I get to go to the communities and help them out with their
problems. I get to go and do a whole bunch of things that I’ve wanted to do for
years, but I couldn’t do because I was raising a family. I think the revolution
starts at home. Yes. When I was raising my family, I did very few things.
[01:24:00] But the family’s raised. I think it’s time for the old MPI folks, the old
PSP folks that are now getting Social Security, not to sit in their houses and rot,
but to come out and help. Our country is falling apart. Fortuño has been the
worst thing that we could get. I mean, our young are leaving. I’ve got three kids
in Milwaukee. I want them back. They want to come back. They don’t like it
there. They were raised here. And I think it’s time for us to take up the fight
again. What are you going to do? How are they going to affect you? Are they
going to take away your Social Security? What? Yeah.
JJ:
So, I was going to ask you the same question, so that’s what you feel that we
should be focusing right now, [01:25:00] people should be focusing, like the
people on Social Security or other people. As a movement, what do you think we
should focus on?
MMR: I think that we cannot leave our young people alone. I mean, the fight that the
young people here gave at the University of Puerto Rico for a whole year in Río
Piedras and in Mayagüez.
JJ:
What was that fight?
39
�MMR: That was a fight against an up in tuition, against whatchamacallit, making the
university smaller and more technical, against freedom of saying things, but
mostly against tuition. A tuition hike plus 800 dollars. Those guys in Río
Piedras, the marvelous things they would do. I mean, the imagination that those
students used. And then the repression by the police.
JJ:
What did they do? I mean, I heard that they took over --
MMR: Oh, they had street theater. They would go and go visit people’s houses.
[01:26:00] They would do a whole bunch of things that were out of the ordinary.
And I think that it was our place to back up the students. In Mayagüez, we did. I
know a whole bunch of my friends, some of them were statehooders, but they
were frustrated. Some of them were [populares?]. And we would go to the nine
gates at the university, and at least once or twice a week, give them food. We
would go every day to give them coffee and donuts. We would be with them in
their marches. We would be there. I remember one march in Mayagüez, to me,
it was marvelous. And it was a learning experience. One march in Mayagüez,
we were on the military road in front of the college. The police come with horses,
and they throw the horses at us. And so, we take the [01:27:00] [Ming bang?]
and put it right in front of the horses’ eyes, and we’re like this. And we got the
horses to retreat because of this one lousy banner. And it was. And then to my
surprise, first of all, I wasn’t used to walking the military road in Mayagüez.
That’s the highway. I mean, you go in the car, you don’t walk down the middle of
the street. Very few marches you walk down. So, I wasn’t used to that. It was a
new experience for me. I loved it. And then to actually make them retreat, and
40
�then they came in motorcycles. And this one motorcycle guy came, and we were
at the end of the march, and we were protecting the students with our banner.
Me, the old folks, and me. And we were preventing them from coming in and
cutting the march up. And this one guy comes and steps on my foot with his
motorcycle. And so, I go back, and I said, [01:28:00] “You’ve got to go, and
you’ve got to (break in audio) apologize to your grandmother, kid.” “What?” I
says, “Because you stepped on an old lady.” And he said, “You’ve got to be
home.” I said, “No, no, my place is to be here and to protect these guys against
you.” Then I found out that his name is Inocencio Reyes and he’s from
Mayagüez. So, every time I see a motorcycle cop in Mayagüez, they all know
each other, I go, “Saludo hachencho. Saludo hachencho.” “Yes, abuelita.” But
to me, it fascinates me. It fascinates me that you can get away with doing things
now that you couldn’t get away with doing [01:29:00] when you were young.
Because they don’t expect it. As this guy said, he expected me to be home
crocheting and I’m not home crocheting. And I think that we cannot leave our
youth alone. We cannot leave our unions alone to fight against the laws like [law
seven?], where we get 30,000 people put out of the job. And then I’ve never
seen corruption as up close and personal, and as crass and out in the open as
we’re seeing in Puerto Rico today. Never, never. And I get frustrated -JJ:
How are we seeing it?
MMR: How are we seeing it? Elections. You know it’s bad when the statehooders have
to rig a [01:30:00] party primary. I mean, you know, it’s bad. You know it’s bad
when, in Guaynabo, when they take a census in Guaynabo, and they have the
41
�heads of departments going to the different people that work in Guaynabo and
that don’t live in Guaynabo and have them moving to these addresses that they
found that had no people living in them. You know it’s bad. They’re doing it
against their own folks. If they do it against their own folks, what have they done
against us? You know it’s bad when you hear that the first lady of Puerto Rico -and I’m a feminist -- has a law practice of signing mortgages, closing mortgage
closings, which she makes millions of dollars with, and which she has taken the
money away from other lawyers, and which she thinks is correct to do. She
wasn’t doing it before she was the first lady. Is that ethical? You know
[01:31:00] it’s corrupt when you have the senator from Mayagüez who doesn’t
seem to have a brain in her body. Why did she get to be senator? Because of
her physical appearance? Yes, she is very pretty. But that’s not the
qualifications that I have for a senator. Pretty is incidental. Brains is just, you
have to have it. And I don’t like brains that all that you do is to follow orders. I
mean, you know there’s corruption when you have a whatchamacallit, when you
have an election for the community representative from the electric company and
they come in with [01:32:00] a box full of votes that’s so neatly packed and has
rubber bands against it and goes completely against the trend of two
companeros that we made a campaign for. I mean, what are they doing? What
are they doing when they allow police to torture? Because that’s what they did to
the university students when they locked arms in front of the gates. They would
come in and press the [caroti?], I don’t know how you say that in English, which
causes pain.
42
�JJ:
Carotid.
MMR: That is torture. When you allow torture, you know, that’s corruption. You know
that’s antidemocratic. I mean, if you saw, the other day, they took away the folks
from Plaza del Sol in Madrid. Madrid. And they didn’t use that tactic. They’ve
never used it. In none of the [desausio?], the [de sa lohos?] [01:33:00] of the
different occupy, have they used that tactic. They used it here. Who taught
them? Why were they taught? Why? Why in June of 2010, did they go and they
nightstick, [macanasos?] to the university students that all they wanted to do was
give a letter to the legislature of Puerto Rico? They target women. I thought it
was poetic justice when the goons from the riot squad were at their hotel, and the
floorboards that were rotten gave way and they all fell down to the first floor. But
never, never in the history of Puerto Rico have we seen a government that
[01:34:00] is as corrupt as Fortuño. And he doesn’t care. I mean, born and bred
in Puerto Rico; he wants to be American. He’s a Guaynabito.
JJ:
Guaynabito?
MMR: From Guaynabo. These folks that have no love for Puerto Rico. Guaynabo is
the richest municipality on the island. And so, you call them Guaynabitos. You
know, he doesn’t know what it is to be a Puerto Rican. He doesn’t want to be a
Puerto Rican. He’s ashamed of being a Puerto Rican. He’s a Republican. He
has so many contradictions on him, it isn’t funny. Every weekend he goes to the
US. For my beans, he should go up there. [01:35:00] And if he wants to be by
the president, fine. Go do to the empire what you did in Puerto Rico.
JJ:
We’ll support you in that.
43
�MMR: We’ll support you in that. (laughs)
JJ:
Okay, anything else?
MMR: No, I’m talking too much.
JJ:
Thank you very much.
(break in audio)
MMR: It was a Young Lords name?
JJ:
A Young Lord is what they call it.
MMR: Okay, I remember that Tony was like a -JJ:
He called it (inaudible)
MMR: Okay, that’s why I can’t remember what it was.
JJ:
Yeah, which is the name (inaudible) and then the other one that said, I don’t like
that, I want [Ariana Hor?], and I (inaudible) because I had to do it for record, but I
just wanted everything the same thing. (inaudible)
MMR: Well, I remember he would write most of the articles.
JJ:
Tony Baez would put the paper together.
MMR: Would put the paper together, and sometimes he didn’t have enough time. He
was amazing. He was amazing. He was doing a lot of things and sometimes he
didn’t have the time, and he’d hand me the paper. Or [01:36:00] he’d call me up
or something and I would go and correct the paper. And when I didn’t know how
to correct, I would go to a friend of mine that was at the U of Chicago, and who
was taking Spanish, and she would. So, it was a very well written paper.
JJ:
Oh yeah. It was a pretty good paper, yeah.
MMR: Yeah, I remember that.
44
�JJ:
And then you said you went to the church, (inaudible)
MMR: I went to the church. I remember and I don’t know if my memory is right or not, of
you explaining the breakfast program. That was one of the times. But it was a
group. This is the first time I meet you one on one because I was always in the
background. And in Milwaukee I would always come in when called, or when a
march or something like that. And that was my thing. I remember Milwaukee
worked [01:37:00] a lot with the Brown Berets.
JJ:
(inaudible) remember
MMR: I remember [La Lovaldez?] and I remember this guy whose name was [Jesse
Tages?] he was “Jeep”. And I was a VISTA volunteer for a summer, and I kept
getting beat up by Polish women and they put Jeep as my bodyguard. I
remember that. I remember working at a place called United Spot, which our
friend Juan remembered the United Spot. I remember we were supposed to give
coffee and stuff to the youth and give them books and stuff, but they didn’t want
it. (laughs)
END OF VIDEO FILE
45
�
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/03470fd3f9ec3539f5ee5cadf65098cd.mp4
f16df1c53da4fe14946d9ec92ed537b4
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection
Subject
The topic of the resource
Young Lords (Organization)
Puerto Ricans--United States
Civil Rights--United States--History
Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.)
Personal narratives
Social justice
Community activists--Illinois--Chicago
Description
An account of the resource
Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives.
The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Jiménez, José, 1948-
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a>
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-04-25
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Language
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eng
spa
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Identifier
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RHC-65
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
2012-2017
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Título
Spanish language Title entry
Marie Merrill Ramirez vídeo entrevista y biografía
Descripción
Spanish language Description entry
Marie Merrill Ramirez a trabajado como activista para la comunidad y la sección de Young Lords en Milwaukee por mucho tiempo. Ayudo con los problemas de la vecindario en el norte y el sur de la cuidad, enfocándose en estabilizando educación bilingüe en las escuelas. Ahora vive en Mayagüez, Puerto Rico donde sigue advocando para la autodeterminación de Puertorriqueños. Durante la huelga de estudiantes en 2010-2011, que fue la huelga mas larga y grande en la historia de Puerto Rico, Marie Ramirez tomo parte y trabajo con otros en coaliciones de uniones de trabajo, profesores, estudiantes, y activistas dentro de Puerto Rico. El gobierno tuvo que dejar la tarifa que iba doblar el costo de atender la universidad. Pero la victoria más significante fue que le movimiento de estudiantes forzó que el gobierno se sentara en la mesa de negaciones.
Sujetos
Spanish language Subject terms
Young Lords (Organización)
Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos
Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia
Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.)
Narrativas personales
Justicia social
Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago
Puerto Rico--Autonomía y movimientos independentistas
Source
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a>
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-65_Ramirez_Marie
Title
A name given to the resource
Marie Merrill Ramirez interview and transcript
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Ramirez, Marie
Description
An account of the resource
Marie Merrill Ramirez is a long-time community activist from the Milwaukee chapter of the Young Lords. She was actively involved with many neighborhood issues both on the north and south sides of the city, focusing especially on supporting of bi-lingual education efforts. She now lives in Mayagüez, Puerto Rico where she continues to advocate for Puerto Rican self-determination.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Jiménez, José, 1948-
Subject
The topic of the resource
Young Lords (Organization)
Puerto Ricans--United States
Civil Rights--United States--History
Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.)
Puerto Ricans--Personal narratives
Social justice
Community activists--Illinois--Chicago
Puerto Rico--Autonomy and independence movements
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video/mp4
application/pdf
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2012-05-16
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1b29379ea74d2095d2cc7d7af06c7309.mp3
2e632b242405923e42b5b0aeff00bd68
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7611515d667db0fe9a836a367c191d13.pdf
36fcbe2a44e0e7082fcc342df7e19306
PDF Text
Text
GV043-07
Connected Exhibit Interviews
Interviewee: Vanessa Ramirez
Interviewers: Gayle Schaub
Date: April 21, 2016
Vanessa:
00:07 My name’s Vanessa Ramirez. I am studying allied health science and minoring in
criminal justice. The goal is to graduate in the summer and then go on to pursue a
master’s in public health, so I’m super excited.
Gayle:
Vanessa:
Is that a decision you made since being here?
00:28 Yeah, Well I, when I first came into the university, I had no idea, really, what I
wanted to do. My - originally I wanted to do communications and broadcasting,
because I figured ok, I’m bilingual. I can make it through here in Grand Rapids and
do some bilingual things because we don’t really have a Spanish local network with
a television network. So I was, like, “oh, my gosh, that’d be so cool!” but, when it
came down to taking communications classes, I just did not feel comfortable. I did
not feel – I don’t know – it just didn’t sync with me. I feel like when you make a
career choice, it should just sync with you. And it didn’t. It was just like, I just
wanted to do it because it sounded good. And it looked, it felt good but it just didn’t
feel right. So, I was, like, you know what? In high school, I loved science. I loved
physics, I loved chemistry, biology so I was, like, let me, where can I collaborate with
all this and then do it more hands on? So I looked at medical lab science and I just
didn’t do so well in a lot of those courses as I had hoped. I think a lot of it had to do
with, you know, my high school wasn’t exactly like, in one of the richest of
neighborhoods.
Gayle:
Vanessa:
Where are you from?
1:49
I lived in Fennville. Fennville, Michigan. It’s a very little, small town. It’s…, I mean,
most of what we have is, what, cranes? (laughs) It’s really pretty. It’s really pretty in
the summer. I do love the town. But our high school just didn’t have as many
resources as I really thought when I listened to other people when I got into these
courses and I heard other kids talk, I don’t know… you know, so I was a little
insecure and my grades, I feel like, reflected that. And I didn’t get into the program.
I didn’t get into the Medical Lab Science program. Which at first, I was like, I was
upset. I was really upset, because, you know, I’ve never done bad at anything, or got
rejected from something. So, I did a little bit more soul searching that year. I also
went to Mexico so, and that was my first time going with my mom. She was born
there and she was raised there. It had been a long time since she had gone back,
too…so going back and then going with her with her, it was just really an opening
experience for me. Just to not only to get out of the country, but also to see my
roots and be there with my mom and my godmother. It was a beautiful, beautiful
feeling. Then I came back here and I had more of a, a worldly experience. And I
thought, I am so grateful to have that I have. To be where I’m at. And everything
happens for a reason. I get emotional (laughs). So…everything happens for a reason
and I just thought, “How did I end up here? How did I get this far? (Chokes up) Sorry.
�Gayle:
Vanessa:
You’re going to make me…
3:34
Gayle:
Vanessa:
Did this come up from a class, or did you…
4:35
Gayle:
Vanessa:
4:55
Alicia Davis taught that course. And I love her too, she’s one of my favorite
professors, whether she knows it or not. I think I should tell her more often! I’ve
taken three of her courses, so I should probably tell her, “You’re my favorite.” And
then, even now, I had just - this semester I took sociology of health care. And that
course also I was just, I was like this the whole time (mimics paying rapt attention),
because these are topics that I’m passionate about and these are topics that I feel
matter, that I don’t think everybody does feel that they matter.
You found your thing.
5:28
Gayle:
Vanessa:
That too. That too. I also took global health after I came back from Mexico I took
global health that following semester. And I just love that class. I loved it for, you
know, sharing, sharing and going over all the different things that influence our
health.
Who taught that?
Gayle:
Vanessa:
There’s so many things that could have derailed me (chokes up). But, you know,
there’s so many things that could have derailed me from being where I’m at, and I
just…before I would think of all the bad things and I would think, ok, I’m not, I’m not
as intellectual as I thought I was, I’m not as academic as I thought I was. But I
realize, I am so educated compared to other people, and I am so, I’m so blessed to
have what I have and to be where I’m at. So, there’s so many other people who are
not educated in health and they’re not health literate, so I want to be one of those
people to share what I have learned and share all that I have been able to
experience so that way you can live a healthy life and you can be a fulfilled person.
So that’s why public health just, it’s in my heart.
I found my thing! Because I just think about, you know, all these influences on our
health and influences on our daily lives and our futures, and even with our children
and I just, I love it because I just, I want to be there to help people, either help them
understand their health insurance or help them understand their illness in a way
that maybe a physician won’t. And even when you see how people, a lot of health
departments now are handing out more and more condoms because of how many
STDs are out there. So even studying, like, traits, I mean not traits, trends and
stuff…I just love it. What else…?
So, coming to college…what was that, what was your decision based on and what
did you go through and…?
6:28
Ok. So, in high school my high school, again, it just…we talked about college, but not
too much about what happens in college or I just remember going over, like, when
due dates are for applications, when due dates are for FAFSA, and when you should
�take the ACT. That’s basically it. I mean, it was good, it was good information but I
wanted to know, I didn’t have anybody to talk to and I didn’t have anybody to ask
about it. My high school counselor always had her own thing going on. I’d try to go
to her office and sometimes she wasn’t even there, but, I won’t trash on her. So I
was really scared. I was scared because this was always something that I wanted. I
just knew I wanted to go to college. That was it. And I’m a first gen, so my parents
didn’t go. I had a college who took a few courses but he just didn’t go anymore. It
wasn’t his thing. And he wasn’t all that good to talk to and ask about because he
had his own theory of “the man” and things like that. He’s kind of radical like that.
So I decided to talk to my counselor and I told her that I needed to know more
about college. And she was, like, “well why don’t you try a duel-enroll course?” and I
was, like, “what’s that?” you know, so I duel-enrolled in Lake Michigan College and
it was so funny because I think about it, I’m like, “wow, I did that!” Because I went
Monday through Friday with my regular courses, you know, I had senior English,
astronomy, psychology, and what was it? I think I took a math class for fun. And
then, on Saturdays, Saturday mornings I had, I had an English course and a math
course at Lake Michigan College.
Gayle:
Vanessa:
Where’s that?
8:13
Gayle:
Vanessa:
And you did ok?
8:55
Gayle:
Vanessa:
It’s in South Haven, Michigan. Or is it Lake Michigan Community College? I don’t
know, I was only there on Saturday mornings. So went there to get an idea of what
college felt like and what, you know, what’s the difference between a professor and
a teacher, and, you know, how, where do I get books? and things like that. It was so
funny because I tried to buy books from Barnes and Noble and, like, “no, you need
to buy them on campus.” It was like, good thing I’m learning this now! So I got
exposure to there and it was great because I didn’t have to pay for it. And, you
know, the high school paid for it, or I don’t’ know how that got waived or how that
works, but all I know is I didn’t pay for it. And I got some credit so that was…
I did pretty good. I got As and Bs so I was like…well, you know what? They were
both As. Never mind, they were both As, so I was like, “I got this! I got this.” I was so
excited. And then I decided to come here to Grand Valley…
Why?
9:10
I decided because it was close enough to home where I didn’t have to, like, leave my
parents and my brothers. In my culture, family is a major, major component and I
just didn’t know if I could do it, really, because they’re my rock. So I was just…it was
close enough to home, it was affordable. Until I got that bill. Until I looked at that
bill and I saw...I remember freaking out. I was crying, crying to my mom because I’m
like, “how are we going to pay for this? How am I going to do this? I don’t want
loans. You don’t want me to get loans.” I was like, “How am I going to do it?” and I
just remember crying and crying and crying with her. Cause I was like, “How?” I was
like, I was in, we were talking back and forth in Spanish and ¡pinche probresa! And I
was like, “oh my gosh, this is…” I was like, “lo odio,” I was like, “I hate it!” “I hate it!”
�and I was just freaking out. And she was consoling me. She was like, “we’ll figure it
out. You’ll do well.” She was like, “don’t worry about the money.” And I got grants, I
got scholarships and I’m four years in and I’m pretty much I have like the most
minimum loans that I didn’t have to get out till like, this year.
Gayle:
Vanessa:
Gayle:
Vanessa:
So, how did you navigate the grant and scholarship process?
10:28 I navigated it through just research - Google…
By yourself?
10:32 Yeah, Google was amazing. I got a few local scholarships in Allegan County that
really helped me out because they were, they were set up so that way I would get
$500 and I would just pick up the check and I could use it towards tuition or books
and I got it for my first two semesters, so that was great. And then I was also was
able to get a Pell grant and I also got a GV grant (that they didn’t give me last year laughs). You can take that out! (laughs) I’m not sour, but they just said I was above
some guidelines, so I was just like, ok. GV, I’m fine, I’m fine (laughs). And then, I also
got that scholarship and then I work two jobs throughout college. I‘ve always
worked two jobs. I’ve worked at TriO Student Support Services, which I loved. I love
them. They are my work family. They are my GV work family for real. And then, I
also, my other jobs were always in between: wedding planning with this wedding
coordinator, yeah (laughs), I do it all! At this wedding venue in Fennville. With Kathy,
she owns Apple Blossom Wedding Chapel and Garden and I love her and, you know,
she helped me out with giving me that job, so I help with weddings on the
weekends. And then, that’s more seasonal, and then right now I’m working at Grand
Valley here at TRiO Student Support Services. And then I also work on the weekends
at this manufacturing company in Holland. So, yeah…
And that has, I feel like it, sometimes it gets hard, but when I’m there at work and
I’m like “oh why am I working? I’m so tired” and then I’m like, it’s all worth it. It’s all
very, very worth it.
Gayle:
Vanessa:
Have you…so TriO has been a big part of…here…?
12:28 Yeah. Because I, after going over and talking with my parents we decided I didn’t
live that far from campus so I’d commute. So I commuted from Fennville for a little
bit. Now I commute from Holland to here. And sometimes it would get rough.
Sometimes it’d be like I just go to class and go home, go to class and go to work. And
then winter semester my freshman year I got the job at Trio and it really gave me a
rooting to campus. A lot of commuter students have a hard time getting a
connection to campus because we just want to go to class and we want to go to
work and you know sometimes after being here for so long you’re like, “I don’t want
to wait till 9:00 to go these group meetings or stuff like that. And working at TriO,
it’s connecting me to campus where I’m able now to explore – I was able to explore
resources and stuff but sometimes I would just not really look into so much because
I just wanted to home, you know. So it really rooted me to campus and I feel like if I
didn’t, if I didn’t work at TRiO, if I didn’t work on campus my first year, I probably
�would have left. I think I would have, because it’s easy to just flow right through and
just be like, ok, well I don’t feel so connected. I’m just here for class. I’m just, you
know, either I would have moved or I would have just left, you know…I think it really
did help me just, even working on campus, I was able to learn about, you know, the
career center and, you know, SASC and tutoring being free, I probably would not
have looked at that stuff on my own if I didn’t have that connection to TriO. It really,
it really helped me out. And even being involved in that, because I’m not, I don’t
only work for them, I’m also a student in that program.
Gayle:
Vanessa:
Gayle:
Vanessa:
Gayle:
Vanessa:
Gayle:
Vanessa:
So, early when you first started talking, you talked about the fact that you were
bilingual. Has that played any role in your college experience at all?
14:30 A little. A little, because sometimes in, I have, sometimes Spanish can just address a
situation better than an English word can. I don’t know, so sometimes I’d find
myself, if I got really nervous, I got really nervous one time in my speech class and I
started in Spanish (laughs). It was so embarrassing for a minute because I was like,
“ok English. I’m not at home. I’m nervous, but, ok, let me be cool.” And there were
just some times where I couldn’t say certain English words right. That they just came
out funny. So I felt that kind you get a little look, like, “what?” And I’m like, “ok. Let
me try to say it again.” Like I couldn’t, the other day I couldn’t say a last name. It
was, I can’t even say it now, it was McClinton, McClinton and I was like, Mc Clonton,
I just had a hard time. And you know, some other words that I see that are, you
know, like Spanish that…like we were watching La Cosecha and when I said “La
Cosecha,” how it is, I felt like the other students in the class were just like, “what
did she just say?” It was a terrible film! You said…it was just interesting, so…
Have you taken any classes?
15:49 No. No I haven’t. I should have. I should have, now that I think about it. I just, to me
it’s just natural that I use at home. And with, I feel like now very Spanglish, very
Spanglish. I go back and forth, you know at home and sometimes I feel like I’ve lost
a little bit of my Spanish, so I feel like maybe I should take a Spanish course just to, I
don’t know, refresh it and articulate my Spanish, especially…
Or even a Spanish literature course where you can just discuss other things
16:23 Yeah, yeah, even just to discuss other things
Spanish for health professions
16:26 Yes, yes, I was, well I tried to test out of Spanish 202 so that way I could take
Spanish for health professions, because that was a pre-rec. But I ended up lower, so
I’m like, well let me brush up on…
Gayle:
Really?
Vanessa:
Yeah. I was like, huh? Well because some –
�Gayle:
Vanessa:
Gayle:
Vanessa:
It’s probably, the way we struggle with English grammar, so…I’ve worked with, I
used to be the Spanish dept. liaison, and so I’ve worked with Spanish for heritage
speakers, so it’s people who’ve just…you know, how we, native speakers can’t
explain their own grammar. They can’t explain to people why we don’t say “ain’t” or
whatever.
17:03 Yeah, so I was just like, uhhh, (unintelligible) So, there are a few words, maybe
because of the Spanish Spanish, and maybe I’m more slang, so there were some
things on the test that I was just like, “uhhh,” but I think I probably will.
That’s interesting
17:20 Yeah, yeah. I had a little bit of a hard time. Maybe because my Spanish is not as
strong as it used to be. So I, I do want to take Spanish for health professions, just so I
could articulate my Spanish and later on I could, it could be more beneficial if I’m
learning to help educate other people or wanting to help explain Obamacare to
somebody, you know. I feel like if I, if I strengthen up my Spanish, and, especially in
the health professions, it’d be great. There was a, it was a funny story because, one
time I went to my grandma’s house and she cooked, right? And she’s like, “aye,
pues, aye riñones,” and I’m like, “¿qué, qué es un riñon?” She’s like, oh, un riñon.”
I’m like, “what?” So – renal – it was a kidney. She had cooked kidney! And I’m like,
“what?” After I was looking, I was like, “this looks familiar.” That summer I had
taken, what was it? My anatomy lab at GRCC so we dissected a pig kidney or like a
sheep kidney and I was like, “that looks the same,” I was like, “no.” It was gross!
(laughs) I was like, “Grandma, ew! I don’t want this!” But if I had had, like, really
brushed up my Spanish and realized that riñon was kidney, I could have avoided
eating it (laughs).
Gayle:
Well, do you speak Spanish at home?
Vanessa:
Occasionally, yeah
Gayle:
But not all the time?
Vanessa:
18:49 Not all the time. Yeah, because we’re, my mom speaks Spanish. She speaks Spanish
and English. So, it’s just sometimes it’s…I’m just Spanglish. She’ll talk to me in full
Spanish and I’ll just be like back and forth. And sometimes she gets mad too, she’s
like, “you should strengthen up your Spanish.” I’m like, well…
Gayle:
And maybe in the work world, you will.
Vanessa:
Yeah, maybe in the work world I might be able to.
Gayle:
So, you want to use a career that utilizes your bilingualism. It would make sense,
right?
Vanessa:
19:22 Yeah, yeah. At least a little bit, you know. I just want to help out and then, you
know, address that we are living in a time where, you know, America’s very diverse,
�and we have a large Latino and Hispanic, Latino and Hispanic community and we
don’t want to block them out of resources just because of a language barrier.
Gayle:
Vanessa:
And in Grand Rapids, there’s even a large non-Spanish-speaking Latino community.
19:47 Yes, yes, a lot of dialects. My grandma on my dad’s side, is actually a Zapoteco,
native to Oaxaca, and you know, sometimes she would talk to me in her Zapoteca,
and I’m just like, I don’t even know what her dialect is actually called, to be honest.
But I’m just like, “I don’t know, Grandma.” (laughs) “Oh my good- no te entiendo.”
I’m just like (laughs). And she’d get upset, too. She would try to show me. And I’ve
had a few friends from Oaxaca that have a dialect, and I just try to listen because it
sounds so interesting. It’s just very, very interesting. And we all have to also
understand that there are other Spanish that, like a Puerto Rican’s kind of Spanish
and a Cuban’s Spanish that’s very different. There are different words. I was in
Florida and I was speaking to a Cuban lady and I had a hard time because she said a
word that I did not, that I had never heard of, so I was, like, “huh?” and she may
have seen it as rude, but I was like, “I don’t mean to be rude, I just don’t know.” And
then, we also have a lot of…we have a huge Asian population in West Michigan
that’s growing. So, I wish I could be universal and just…
Gayle:
Vanessa:
Well…
21:08 I wish I really could – to help out.
Gayle:
Well, you’re ahead of most people.
Vanessa:
Gayle:
Yeah. I try.
So, when you started here, you’re a senior?
Vanessa:
Yeah.
Gayle:
When you started as a freshman, you started as a commuter. Did you go through
any, like, transitions, or is that only for people moving on campus? Did you go
through any orientation program?
Vanessa:
21:30 I did do orientation. But when I heard transitions was optional, I was like, yeah, I
don’t want to drive up here. So, which was kind of bad.
Gayle:
Vanessa:
Gayle:
Do you regret that?
21:39
A little bit, yeah, I really do. I feel like part of transitions, it helps you make
connections with students on campus – other freshmen especially. So imagine if you
meet a few people during (what’s it called?) …transitions, maybe you’ll have a
familiar face in a class that could help you out. Especially if you miss notes or
anything, or if you have a few questions. So I feel like maybe I should have gone just
to set up more connections on campus.
How did you connect to TriO? Or did they connect with you?
�Vanessa:
Gayle:
Vanessa:
Gayle:
Vanessa:
22: 12 I got a letter from them. I got an invite letter from them.
Before you started at Grand Valley?
22:18 Before my first day, yeah. So I sent in my application right away because I was
already familiar with TriO. So I did that and I was accepted.
What do you have to do to apply to the program?
22:32 Just an application. There are, you just have to be first gen[eration], or limited
income, so I was both. So I was able to get in. It’s just a quick little application. Our
application’s also now online.
Gayle:
Any…I don’t know…I don’t know what else to ask you because I’m starting to
(unintelligible) questions I may have asked someone else.
Vanessa:
No, you’re fine
Gayle:
Do you have a happiest memory? A most frustrated memory? A most…either way –
either end of the spectrum.
Vanessa:
Gayle:
Vanessa:
23:07 My most frustrating memory was when I was failing a course. I was just, well I
considered it failing because I was doing so poorly, especially my first two exams.
And it was one of those courses where you have four exams. So I was freaking out. I
was just like, “Oh my God. I’ve never struggled this bad. What do I do? What do I
do?” I’m literally having an anxiety attack because I’ve never failed a course.
What year were you?
23:35 It was my freshman year. And then I was connected to tutoring so that, at first I was
a little too proud because I was always the tutor, not the tutee. I was like, “oh no.
But I have no reason to be, to have too much pride because I’m failing this course.
Let me go and get help.”
So I go get help. I do walk-in tutoring, I had scheduled tutoring sessions. And it really
helped me improve my grade to at least be passing. I think I ended up with a C.
Gayle:
Vanessa:
What class was it?
24:08 I think it was organic chemistry. So that’s, I like to say that’s when me and chemistry
broke up (laughs). Because I loved chemistry up until then and I was like, “oh my
gosh.” But, I think that’s important, for especially us first-gen students going in – to
be aware of the free resources. Well, you’re already paying for them so utilize these
resources on campus. Utilize the Career Center, the Tutoring Center, the Writing
Center. Oh I love the Writing Center. They helped me out so much during my
Writing 150 course. And then, utilizing faculty and staff. They love to answer your
�questions. I don’t think there’s ever been a time when I was just pushed off or
anything like that. I had questions and they got answered and it helped me out a lot.
Gayle:
Vanessa:
Librarians, too.
24:57 Yeah. Librarians, too! (laughs) I actually did get help – I forgot her name – during
one of my research courses. I took research of health care. It’s AHS 301. But she
helped me out understanding how to use the databases with the quotations and
everything.
Gayle:
Val?
Vanessa:
I don’t remember. But she was nice.
Gayle:
It could have been someone who’s gone now. It may have been Judy.
Vanessa:
That sounds familiar. Did she work with the health professions?
Gayle:
Yeah, Val and Judy, and Betsy does now. But if it was a while back, it was probably…
Vanessa:
Yeah it was before last year…I’m trying to think of any other good stories.
Gayle:
Are you grad- Oh, no, you’re graduating December. Are you going to go to the
ceremony? Are you going to walk?
Vanessa:
No. Because I feel weird if I go walk and then I have to come back and do other
things. I’d rather just walk in December. Then I’ll feel more accomplished.
Gayle:
Oh, but you are going to walk in December? Oh, that’s what I meant.
Vanessa:
Gayle:
Vanessa:
26:05 Yeah. Yeah, I’ll walk in December, because, with a lot of my family, I’ll share this
(gets her phone). I am really blessed to have a really great support network. I have
aunts and uncles and cousins who just been so supportive. And, you know, half the
time they don’t understand college, especially, you know, like, none of them have
gradu- some of them haven’t even graduated from high school but they still, they
just still get so excited for me and I just – I love it.
You might even get some gifts out of this (laughs).
26:45 Oh yeah. They have – there’s been times where I remember, especially my
godfather, I was like, “oh I have to go…” I was staying with him and my godmother
for a couple of days during winter break a few years ago. I was like “oh I have to go
buy my books.” I was like, “oh my gosh I can’t…” I was like “oh crap I totally forgot, I
have to buy my books.” And he bought my books. He was just like, “well, what
courses are you taking?” He said, “well, look them up.” And I had them looked up,
and he bought them for me. So, and he’s always been great with support. Him and a
lot of my close family members. So they were kind of confused as to why I wasn’t
graduating this year. So I had a few questions and then they were asking my mom
�and she was like, “well I don’t know, she’s doing her own thing. I don’t understand”
and everything like that, so I wrote a Facebook post, and I said (reads from post):
"For my amazingly supportive family and friends who have been asking,
I graduate with my bachelor’s in December! So not quite yet, but we’re
so close the finish line! And I say we because I wouldn’t be this far
without all your love, support, and guidance. You are truly appreciated
[and I said] Y pa mi gente, y’all already know my mom is scandalous and
we’ll celebrate!"
(laughs) My mom is always just, she’s always so excited about these things.
So I get a lot of congratulations and, you know, one of my uncles, he says,
(reads from post):
"I always knew you would because you are the Champ/Champie. I can’t
wait to celebrate this great achievement."
And my other tia, she’s like (reads from post):
"Proud of you sweetie. And yes, we’re ready to celebrate."
28:19 So, and a lot of my family live in Chicago, so they’re like, “road trip to
Michigan in December!” and, you know, they’re just so great to support me
even if they don’t understand, you know, what I’m really going through. So
they…where did I hear this? I think it was during a Ted Talk, but I don’t
remember the title. Or it might have been a documentary where he says,
where one of the speakers says, you know, Latino students don’t go to
college. Latino families go to college. So I was like, they truly have been with
me this whole journey, and I think we have to remember that. Especially
when we’re first-gen, we have people back home and we have people here
who are rooting for us and really want us to do well. So I really appreciate it.
Gayle:
So you think you’ll stay around the area?
Vanessa:
I might. Yeah, I probably will. I love Grand Rapids. I love West Michigan.
Gayle:
But you’re open to other ideas as well?
Vanessa:
29:28 Yes. I would not close out other ideas. Because I just love exploring,
especially to see, you know, what other communities are out there, what
it’s like living in other places. But West Michigan has always just been so
sweet. I don’t know how else to call it. I remember, because I grew up in
Chicago for a long time. I was there till I was about 10-12. Then we moved
out here to West Michigan and I remember going back, not that long ago
and I held the door open and, like, “why didn’t she say thank you?” (laughs).
I get so used to it, people here do it. I’m not bashing my other people, I love
them, but…
�Gayle:
I had that experience in Montreal. I held the door open and a woman
walked right through, and I went (makes confused face)
Vanessa:
Yeah (laughs)
Gayle:
There was no acknowledgment
Vanessa:
Gayle:
30:14 Yeah, it was like, whoa. I’ll still do it, but…(laughs) that was mean.
Well, this was great! I have a form for you to fill out.
Ok. Cool. I hope I didn’t get too per-
End
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Connected Exhibit Interviews
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries
Description
An account of the resource
Collection of audio recordings and transcripts of Grand Valley State University students sharing their stories and experiences. The recordings were conducted as part of an exhibit created by the University Libraries in fall semester of 2016 titled "Connected" which featured short audio clips of students. The clips were combined with watercolor portraits of GVSU students by Ellie Lubbers and an interactive watercolor painting activity. Students were encouraged to paint 3" circles of paper to illustrate their current feelings about the college experience and attach them to the gallery wall. The aim of the exhibit was to inspire feelings of community, connectedness, and welcome to new and returning students.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/626">University Libraries. Connected exhibit files</a>
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Universities and colleges
Michigan
College students
Oral histories
Education, Higher--United States--Anecdotes
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Cadena, Cara; Schaub, Gayle; Frigo, Emily; Lubbers, Ellie; Fisher, Erin
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
GV043-07
Format
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audio/mp3
application/pdf
Type
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Sound
Text
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Ramirez, Vanessa
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-04-21
Title
A name given to the resource
Vanessa Ramirez interview (audio and transcript)
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Text
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Schaub, Gayle (interviewer)
Identifier
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GV043-07_RamirezV_2016-04-21
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/626">University Libraries. Connected exhibit files</a>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401
Relation
A related resource
Grand Valley State University Libraries. Connected Exhibit, September 2016
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a>
Description
An account of the resource
Interview with Vanessa Ramirez conducted by Gayle Schaub for the GVSU Libraries' Connected Exhibit, displayed in September 2016. Edited clips of interviews accompanied watercolor portraits of students and an interactive watercolor activity for exhibit visitors. Vanessa will graduate in 2017 with a degree in allied health science and a minor in criminal justice. She plans to pursue a master’s degree in public health. Growing up bilingual in a small town made Vanessa’s transition to GVSU a bit of a challenge at first. Seeking out (and receiving) grants, getting involved with TRiO Student Support Services, and being her own strongest advocate, Vanessa has become an amazing example for others on how to succeed at college, no matter what your background. Vanessa has worked hard to get where she is, holding down two jobs throughout her time at GVSU, both in TRiO and off campus. She plans to advocate for those without a voice when she graduates, using her Spanish to help others navigate the complex healthcare landscape.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
audio/mp3
application/pdf
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Subject
The topic of the resource
Universities and colleges
Michigan
College students
Oral histories
Education, Higher--United States--Anecdotes
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7bd70447e62db54bbcca4a45d17d7d6d.mp4
3c4fa8ad8ef273c3d50a2c23c5487734
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/eacc49e68c27448f93acbfa2b887cf14.pdf
78d5252dd7fff167f2b528938695a218
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Edward Ramon
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Grace Balog
Interviewer: Alright. We are talking today with Edward Ramon of Winston-Salem, North
Carolina. The interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans
History Project. Alright. Ed was, among other things, a helicopter pilot in his military
career and as such, he served as a cavalryman. And that’s why he is sporting a cavalry hat
here. It’s also got his captain’s bars and then you’ve got—now what are the wings on the
hat for?
Veteran: Those are senior Army aviator wings.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: I was a senior Army aviator.
Interviewer: Alright. Okay, good. And now you can take the hat off because it’s shading
your eyes a little. Alright.
Veteran: I’ll put on my other hat. I don’t have my hair combed.
Interviewer: Okay, well it shades your eyes a little bit which is—
Veteran: Oh, it does?
�Interviewer: Yeah. So, okay, that’s better. Okay. Now, let’s begin at the beginning. Where
and when were you born?
Veteran: I was born in San Antonio, Texas during World War 2. I was born at Fort Sam
Houston.
Interviewer: Okay. And was your father in the military?
Veteran: My daddy was a gunner’s mate in the United States Navy in the South Pacific. And he
served a good portion of the war.
Interviewer: Okay, now you have other relatives or ancestors who were in as well?
Veteran: Oh yes, quite a few.
Interviewer: Now, talk about your grandfathers.
Veteran: Well, my Comanche grandfather was Marshall Chikoh-Chikoh-Ko. And he was killed
in France 4 days before the end of the war. Had another grandfather. He was 14 years old. He
was in the horse drawn artillery in France. He survived the war. He served in World War 2 in the
U.S. Army Air Corps, which became the Air Force. So, he stayed with them and became Air
Force and he served in Korea with the Air Force. So, he served—he got his share. Had uncles
that were infantrymen and combat medics. World War 2 mostly and Korea. And several cousins
that were Marines. They were all killed in Korea. So, quite a family. (00:02:32)
Interviewer: Okay. Now, when you were growing up, what kind of job did your father
have?
Veteran: My daddy was an employee at the Lonestar Ordinance in Texarkana. He started out
there as in the bank department. He ended up in security. His principal occupation was after he
�got off work; he was sort of a handyman. Built houses, kitchen cabinets. He worked his butt off;
he was a hardworking man.
Interviewer: Alright. And then, did you go to high school in San Antonio?
Veteran: No. We moved to Decatur, Texas. Up in the northeast corner of Texas.
Interviewer: Okay, so that’s about—
Veteran: Until I was about 3.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright. Because your father worked up there?
Veteran: That’s where I grew up. Yeah.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: My mother’s father owned a farm up there and when he passed, my young mother, my
young daddy, and my baby brother and my sister, we moved up there and that’s where I grew up.
Interviewer: Right. Okay. And then, when did you finish high school?
Veteran: May of 1960.
Interviewer: Okay. And what did you do after high school?
Veteran: Well, knocking around. There wasn’t much for me to do. I hauled hay and I worked and
I did a few little things. And that fall, I got a scholarship. Football scholarship. My father
couldn’t afford to send me to school because he elected to send my sister. She was a very hard
worker. I was kind of like a wild kid. So, dad decided to invest what little he had into my sister’s
education.
Interviewer: Okay. (00:04:31)
�Veteran: He was pleased that I got a football scholarship.
Interviewer: Okay, now what school did you go to?
Veteran: Texarkana Junior College.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: We were national champions, junior college champions. Tough football team.
Interviewer: Alright. And then, what happened to you after you started college?
Veteran: Well, I broke my leg. My girlfriend dumped me. My little brother wrecked my car. And
my two best buddies joined the Army. So, I followed along: I joined the Army.
Interviewer: Alright.
Veteran: And I reported for basic training at Fort Hood, Texas—
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: --on January the 17th.
Interviewer: Alright. Now to back up a little bit, when your friends joined, how exactly did
they do that?
Veteran: Oh. Back then, you could volunteer for the draft. And they would draft you and you
would do a 2-year hitch and get out. If you enlisted in the Army, it was 3 years. If you enlisted in
the Marine Corps, the Navy, or whatever, it was 4 years. So, I thought it was appealing to do 2
years to find out what it was like and continue my education. GI Bill.
Interviewer: Yep.
�Veteran: But they were trying to send—they wanted to send me right before Christmas. I said,
“No, I don’t want to go before Christmas.” So, this shrewd recruiting officer, he said, “Well, you
can enlist.” And so, I did.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: And I started my career.
Interviewer: Alright. And so, where did you go for basic training?
Veteran: Fort Hood, Texas.
Interviewer: Okay. And what was basic training like in 1961? (00:06:12)
Veteran: Little different from what it is today. I showed up at Fort Hood about 3 o’clock in the
morning. And there were dirt trails, tack trails. Wooden barracks with the windows broken out.
And I had been traveling all night. I got there at 3 in the morning. When I got there, I still had on
civilian clothes. They put me on KP. No kidding. And I was on KP for 11 hours. Peeling
potatoes, washing pots and pans, and then we got put into this barracks. They issued us our
clothing and stuff. And it was tough. We did forest marches, lots of calisthenics, and a corporal
was God. So, you imagine what a sergeant was or a lieutenant. So, it was an eye opener. And I
wanted to make my uncles and grandfather and my dad proud so I stood up and I was sharp.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright. And how long did the basic training last?
Veteran: Basic training was 8-weeks. About 8-weeks. Then from there you would advance to
individual training. I went to an infantry center at Fort Ord, California.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: And did the—I think about 8-10 weeks there.
�Interviewer: Alright. Now, how was the advanced training different from basic?
Veteran: Well, you had been a soldier for 2 months. You’ve learned how to behave yourself and
most of it is academic pursuit so it’s not really a challenge to what…You know, if you were a
Rambo or not. It’s just they’re going to teach you something. And then during this time, you
were always wondering where you’re going to end up. You know, where you are going to go.
So, when I was at Fort Ord, California, I went on to Fort Benjamin Harrison, Indiana. And I took
finance training. I thought that sounds pretty good: you don’t have to walk around in the hot sun,
you know. (00:08:42)
Veteran: So, I had completed that. That was about I think 4 weeks or 8 weeks. I can’t remember.
So, they sent me to Fort Sam Houston, Texas. I thought that was great. Got back to my old
country then. I got there. 566th ambulance company. 82nd—37th Strike medical battalion, 82nd
airborne. And they didn’t need a finance clerk. They had one. You know? So, I was sitting there,
you know, a private. So, they decide they are going to make me a combat medic. A 9-10 and a 911 was the MOS. So, I became a medic. And that was interesting. I was oriented towards that
kind of stuff.
Interviewer: Okay. So, what were they actually teaching you?
Veteran: I am sorry?
Interviewer: What were they teaching you?
Veteran: Oh. I think quite a bit, really. You know, just to be an enlisted corpsman or a medic.
Lifesaving things. You know, heart functions, bleeding—stop the bleeding. Elevate this.
Tourniquet that. Blah blah. Chemical warfare. Atropine injections. But a lot of it was just ABCs.
Aspirins and drinking water and treat the blisters. That was a bad thing about being the medic:
�you had to carry extra water because these other guys would drink all theirs and you had to give
them some of yours and water is heavy. (00:10:20)
Veteran: So, I decided I would—we had a battalion. Part of our mission was to put on combat
exercises and the doctors sat on their butts up on the bleacher and I thought they got their basic.
They watched us fight. We had casualties and we would put them in the litters and carry them to
these old cracker box field ambulances and take them to sorting stations. And they would sit up
there and they would watch all this. So, that’s what I ended up being: I was an infantryman. I
was a machine gunner shooting out at one of the bad guys. And so, I would shoot at all of the
guys coming up the hill. And they had a pit right behind me with a dummy in it. And that these
fighters were to come over from the Air Force place. And they’d set off these charges. So, I’d
bounce off the ground and end up with a mouthful of dirt and then I had to pick up all my brass
and get stung in the butt by scorpions and crap and have to go back down. That was part of my
PFC job. That was it, you know.
Interviewer: So, how long did you do that?
Veteran: Oh, from ’61…Half of ’61 on up to…I left the Fort Sam Houston in January, ’64—
February, ’64. But I went in the Cuban crisis with the 82nd. We showed up at Ocala, Florida. My
company struck with a battalion. We showed up in Ocala and it was kind of like up until that
point, I had been painting fences and hiding from the first sergeant. And now, it looked like this
was what it’s all about and we are going to war. And I was, back then, a medic. I had this little
pack of crap and I said, “How the hell am I going to save somebody’s life with this stuff?” And
we were—I was scheduled with a third wave to go over the shore. And the third wave would be,
you know, very high casualties. And so, what are you going to do? You know? You going to lay
�out there on the beach and treat guys and get shot yourself? What you going to do? What you
going to do? (00:12:41)
Veteran: And I was a brand-new father. I was 19 years old and had a little baby boy. And it
was—I think that’s when I became a soldier. I realized they wouldn’t listen to grandpa or Uncle
Glen or none of that. It was here you are boy. Here’s your job, you know, you’re going to do it.
And they had the Bay of Pigs. You know how tragic that was. But I had an uncle at the
Normandy invasion. Uncle Charlie. He was Charlie Bee. And he was the last living Comanche
Code Talker. He died a few years back. And he was a funny guy. He was tough. He’s a boxer. A
little guy.
Interviewer: Alright. Okay, so for you. So, you spend several years at Fort Sam Houston.
You were a medic. I am just revealing a little bit. So, you spent several years at Fort Sam
Houston—
Veteran: No, not 7.
Interviewer: Several. Several.
Veteran: Several, yeah.
Interviewer: Like 3. Yeah. And you—and then you went to Florida briefly at the time of
the missile crisis.
Veteran: Oh, yeah. But that was just for the crisis and then I went back to Fort Sam Houston.
Interviewer: Right. Right. Okay.
Veteran: And then, January of ’64, my 3-year enlistment was up. So, here I was: 20 years old and
had a baby, had a baby on the way, had no idea what I could do for a living. You know? It
�wasn’t too good when I left. I didn’t think there would be much when I went back. So, I guess
my family—my daddy was not military—but I decided I would make a military career.
(00:14:33)
Veteran: So, I enlisted. And I asked to go to Fort Jackson, South Carolina. Infantry center there.
When I got there, I had a hearing impairment from a hand grenade blast and so I applied for this
defense information school. So, they teach you how to report things, how to write things, how to
do the…And so I was selected. I was sent to the—and right before I was supposed to go to Fort
Slocum, New York, they called me. Told me they had cancelled my orders. “Well, why?” “We
have a hearing profile. H-3 hearing profile from this grenade.” “Oh, god.” You know, so I said,
“Well, can I go take another hearing test?” And the authorities said, “Yeah, sure.” So, I went
down to the hospital. Sit there. I took this hearing test. And I marginally passed. So, then I was
off to Fort Slocum. Wonderful school. Really good school. Went to Fort Slocum. Made it—I was
E-5 already. I made E-5 pretty fast. So, while I was at Fort Slocum doing all of this stuff, I
said—oh, I had applied for flight school and was turned down for my hearing—so, I said, “Well,
maybe I ought to apply for flight school again.” I got home to Fort Jackson and I did. (00:16:27)
Veteran: And I scored very high on the test and things. They sent me to Fort Bragg, North
Carolina. You know Fort Bragg. Went over to Simmons Field and they flew you around on an
orientation ride. See if you get airsick or vomit or, you know, wet your pants or what you’re
going to do. So, I enjoyed the orientation flight so that—I passed that. I did really good on all the
testing. And I went to take the physical. Passed it. So…And there was a waiting period to go to
flight school. They sent me right away that month so this was all like in December of ’64.
Interviewer: Okay.
�Veteran: And January of ’65, I was at flight school.
Interviewer: Okay. Now, was this flight school for fixed wing aircraft or for helicopters?
Veteran: Rotor wing.
Interviewer: Okay. Helicopters.
Veteran: So, I went from Fort Bragg—Fort Jackson—I went to Fort Wolters, Texas. Little old
facility. I think they were active during World War 2 or something but they were kind of—well,
they had become now the primary helicopter training center. That’s where you go for your
primary. So, I reported to Fort Wolters, Texas. And they taught me how to fly a helicopter. And
when I finished that portion of the program, they sent me to Fort Rucker. Fort Rucker, Alabama
is for your advanced helicopter training.
Interviewer: Okay, now to back up a little bit, you said they taught you how to fly a
helicopter?
Veteran: Yes.
Interviewer: How easy or hard was that? (00:18:08)
Veteran: Well, I was a pretty good athlete. I was agile and bidextrous—ambidextrous—and I
thought I was a stud, you know, and I was cool. And I looked at the literature and stuff:
helicopter flying? That is easy. You push the stick forward to go forward, pull it back you go
backwards. Obviously, left, right. You want to turn around, you step on one of the pedals and
you turn around. If you want to go up you just pull up and down on the collective. That’s easy.
Hell, anybody can do that. I remember my first flight. And a Mr. Reeves was my flight
instructor; I will never forget him. And took me on this roughage: big open field in a helicopter.
�He’s sitting—we’re sitting in the helicopter just like this, you know. And he said, “Okay, you
take the cyclic.” So, I took the cyclic. And we starting running around, just...And then he said,
“Okay, you take the pedals.” So, we started going around with like a spin. And he said, “Now,
you have got the collective.” So, we are going up and down, around and around. And it’s like…I
am remember getting on that bus going back to the barracks. And I said, “There ain’t no way in
hell I will ever fly one of these things. There ain’t no way. I mean, it’s—there ain’t no way.”
And I looked around the bus and everybody else had their lip down in the dirt. We had all
learned that this was complicated. So, by little increments, we began to bring it down where we
could control it. Make matters worse, we flew Hillers, OH-23s. Worst helicopter ever designed.
It is just a piece of junk. And you really had to work to fly the thing. But that’s when I learned to
fly in. (00:20:16)
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: And if you didn’t solo pretty damn quick, you get washed out. They didn’t cut you no
slack. You better catch on quick. And I was probably the worst helicopter pilot student they ever
had in the military. But I made it. Over half of them didn’t make it. So, I made it down near the
bottom of my class but I—still, I made it, you know.
Interviewer: Right. Now, did they have a lot of accidents?
Veteran: No, we had very few—no accidents. No fatal accidents.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright.
Veteran: Then. But later on, they started having a few.
Interviewer: Okay.
�Veteran: Because they were just pushing everybody through. Anybody that could fog up a mirror
could graduate, you know?
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: And we had…We had a lot of cowboys. What you call cowboys is our Vietnam veteran
pilots that were—they were good pilots but they weren’t—they didn’t teach good, safe, steady
practice. They were kind of like wild boys. So, they were training guys. And they had one of my
friends that hit some wires and killed himself and his student. They had midairs. Really a very
safe record compared to how much they were doing.
Interviewer: Right. Okay. So, you go on now to Fort Rucker? For the next stage?
Veteran: Yeah, I went…When I finished up at the Fort Wolters, I went to Fort Rucker, Alabama
and started different phases of training. More sophisticated navigation and more maintenance
training and more different maneuvers and blah blah blah blah. And transitioned into the Huey. I
flew an old H-19 Chickasaw. That’s another piece of junk. World War 2 stuff. You know, if this
heavy iron wouldn’t oughta lift itself off the ground but that’s what we trained in. And then I
went over into Hueys, which is state of the art then. And both the—actually it was an accident
looking for a place to happen. But there I was, flying the Hueys. And we had had to have so
much flight training, a lot of stuff: navigation, formations, organizational things, heavy on
maintenance, meteorology. I mean, just lots of stuff. And you got cranked out of there, it was
straight to Vietnam. (00:22:56)
Veteran: You knew that. And this was kind of frightening. I now had 3 babies.
Interviewer: Okay.
�Veteran: My little baby girl was born in February of ’64, right after I reenlisted. And then,
September of ’65, found out my youngest boy was born. And I graduated in December. But
before I graduated, the class ahead of me—you knew these guys because they—boy, you talk
about harassment. They were on you. You would always lose-lose. You never win-win. You had
to run everywhere you went. And they’d say, “Whoa, candidate.” And if you stopped, “Sir,
Candidate Ramon, yes sir.” They’d come over and say, “Are you a mule? Only mules stop when
you holler ‘whoa.’” You know. So, they’d chew you out for being a mule or mules, stupid mule.
The next guy you run by, he’d holler “Whoa.” And you just keep running, he’d halt you. He
says, “Sir, what’s wrong with you? You stupid or something? Even a mule knows to stop when
you say ‘whoa.’ You don’t know that?” You know, they’d say—it was kind of—but you got to
know these guys. (00:24:21)
Veteran: And the harassment eased up right when you got near the end. Not a whole lot but it did
some. But you did have these guys. And they put rosters up on the bulletin board with all their
names on it. As they were killed, they drew a red line through their name. And you started seeing
entire rosters disappear. And you knew that’s where you were going. I went to Texarkana. I
bought a 4-bedroom brick house with a chain link fence on a one acre lot. Payments were $106 a
month. I had no idea how I was going to make that much of a payment. But I knew it was a great
possibility that I would be killed. And I wanted my children and my wife to have a home.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: Well, I didn’t get killed and I got a battlefield commission to lieutenant, which was a
pay raise exactly what my house payment was.
�Interviewer: Alright. So, when you become a helicopter pilot, then you become a warrant
officer?
Veteran: Yes, you get commissioned as a warrant officer and they give you your wings and
your… alright, tell you a funny story: this is—my daddy was a sailor. They don’t have sergeants
in the Navy, they have chief petty officers. But from my uncles and grandpas and stuff, he knew
that a sergeant was a pretty important person. Well, as luck would have it, I was a specialist. I
was an E-4, an E-5, but I wanted to have the hard stripes. And I was always telling my daddy
when I was home every so often, “Boy, I sure would like to make sergeant. You know, be a
sergeant.” My daddy would nod his head. You know, he is non-military. (00:26:23)
Veteran: And then…So, I went to flight school. I became a warrant officer. That’s way higher
than a sergeant. And my daddy, bless his heart, he came to my graduation at Fort Rucker. So, I
was late for the damn ceremony. I had never been—that’s—you get thrown out for that. But my
wife and my mother and the commander, the commandant, he liked me. He knew what was
going on. It wasn’t my fault. But I was nervous. And so, he—the commandant called me aside
and commissioned me. This and that, this and that. And my mother pinned my wings on my
chest. And my daddy and the commandant put my little warrant officer bars on. You know, the
little epaulets. So, they put that. Warrant officer is nothing, he’s just a W-1. You know? But it’s
more important—way more. My daddy put his arm around me and he said, “Son, I bet you by
God now they’ll make you a sergeant.” That was funny, funny, funny. But I sent my wife and my
children to our new home in Texarkana. And I had a—I didn’t have any leave to speak of. So, I
stayed at Fort Rucker and my job was to fly these instrument helicopters. TH-13-Ts. The military
has a policy where you try to keep the seals wet. You fly these engines and transmissions and
such, keep them going. Every 7 days you get them wet, you know. So, I had a fleet of these
�observation helicopters that were turned into instrument ships. And I got to fly those all day long
and that was—paid for my room and board, I guess. And so, finally they let me go home, I think
right before Christmas. And I got to spend two or three weeks with my wife and my babies
before going to Vietnam. (00:28:41)
Interviewer: Alright.
Veteran: And I knew that all these guys were going and getting killed. And they wiped out my
class. They just wiped them out. I think there was 4 of us left. And the one died in a training
accident, hitting these wires. And we went back to Vietnam, another was killed flying Chinooks.
And myself and another one were two out of the bunch. I think we started off with 87 but…
Interviewer: Alright.
Veteran: It was a high attrition rate.
Interviewer: Yeah. Okay. Now, how do they get you to Vietnam?
Veteran: Huh?
Interviewer: How did they get you to Vietnam?
Veteran: How did they get me?
Interviewer: To Vietnam.
Veteran: Well, I…My family took me to the airport in Dallas. TFW. I flew to…I think San
Francisco.
Interviewer: Okay.
�Veteran: And had a night there. Met up with a Green Beret. Young lieutenant. He and I kind of
like pals so we went out to the bar. You know. He and I had a farm. And the entertainers sang
songs to us. You know, like—kind of like in a…One of the songs they sang was Beeping and
Hiding, Slipping and Sliding. You remember that? And the next day we went back and it was
just, you know, like this barracks and that bed and you got your duffel bag and all your stuff. We
boarded a Northwest Orient flight. Flew to Japan. Stopped in Japan for about 45 minutes. And
then flew on into—I flew into Tan Son Nhut, Saigon. (00:30:32)
Interviewer: Okay. So, when did you arrive in South Vietnam?
Veteran: It was…I don’t really remember. January ’66.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: I’ll have to check my records but it was…It wasn’t long after Christmas, I’ll tell you
that. Might have been earlier than early part of January, ’66.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright. Okay, and what was your first impression of Vietnam?
Veteran: Coming in out of altitude, I was looking around and I could see tracers are going to the
ground. And you could see forever, you know. Up in the—I could see explosions across the
artillery barrages and stuff and explosions. And I said, “Oh crap.” It was spread out. Way spread
out. So, then we come in and we land at Tan Son Nhut. And when you get off the airplane, first
thing that hits you is the odor: rotten fish and, you know, just feces and it stinks. And a lot of
fumes and gasoline and diesel and stuff. Just stinks. It was hot. It was sticky. And I got an
appointment there called…Oh, I forgot where but Camp Alpha where they took us into this little
city of barbed wire and tin, sandbags. That was a funny feeling. (00:32:13)
�Veteran: You stuck out like a sore thumb. You had on brand new fatigues, brand new boots and
you looked like a new penny. They put you back in this area back there. And here’s all the guys
that are leaving. They’re dark, tan. Faded clothes. And they got that other world stare. They
aren’t friendly. They don’t want friends because friends will get killed. And you mix in with
those guys. And you’re like a little puppy, peeing on their shoes. You know, you’re trying to get
in there with them. And most of them are real quiet. Most of them have no advice to offer. And
that was funny. That was a strange feeling. So, you stayed there at Camp Zama while they assign
you to a combat unit. So, I was there for about 2 days. Then they told me to report to the helipad,
that they were coming to pick me up, my unit. That was the 68th Assault Helicopter Company.
Tough, tough, outfit. And I got in the back of the Huey and we took off and the door gunner
pulled back the bolt on his machine gun and the crew chief. And I am looking through the
cockpit and there we go. And now we are at, you know, like 1000 feet, 1500 feet, and I can see
the rice paddies and I could…So, it was an eye-opener. It was a lot of experience, that just
getting there.
Interviewer: Now, was this company attached to a specific division? Or just part of a—was
this a helicopter company? Was it part of a larger aviation unit? (00:34:02)
Veteran: Sure. Yes. We belonged to the 145th Combat Aviation Battalion. They belonged to the
12th Group and they belonged to the 1st Combat Aviation Brigade. A brigade is something they
put together out of necessity to meet a need.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: So, the First Aviation brigade was essentially a bunch of red-headed step children that
nobody loved. You know? So, you were used to going here to go there to go there. That’s why I
�served with so many good combat units. I served with all of them: 1st Infantry, 4th Infantry, 9th
Infantry, 25th Infantry, 196th Light Infantry Brigade. You know, 173rd Airborne, 101st Airborne,
82nd Airborne. Wherever they needed a regular soldier, that’s where they would put me, you
know.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: And we went up as far as the battle of Bong Song, which was a son of a gun. That was
in January of ’66. And it was, the Battle of Bong Song, was hand-to-hand. And you were trying
to support your troops. You couldn’t deliver ammunition when they were like this. You know,
you had to check ID cards before you did anything, you know. And so, that was an eye-opener
but I was young and dumb. And we did combat assaults all day long, every day. Nonstop. And
the first couple of combat assaults just terrified me, paralyzed me. Unbelievable stuff they did.
You’re going into—it looks like, if it’s early at dawn, looks like a spiderweb of tracers. And
you’re flying right through it because they’re—and there is depth in there. But you hear people
receiving fire. May day calls. People going down. Helicopters crashing and burning. And men
getting shot to death right out in front of you on the LZ. (00:36:10)
Veteran: Sometimes you were successful, sometimes you had to pull them out. And it was just
like that. And I didn’t fly. I’d sit there, I was a sandbag, you know? And in case my pilot got
killed, I was—I could fly it out. And I had the unwelcome privilege of looking. My aircraft
commander had his hands full. I mean, he was—helicopters everywhere. There was stumps and
stuff and you don’t want him to land on dead guys. And so, my aircraft commander was busy, as
I was later on. But now, it’s sitting there, you know, picking my nose, looking at all this stuff.
So, you get to see all the stuff you don’t need to see.
�Interviewer: Okay. How long did it take for you to—how long did it take to adjust to that?
Veteran: I’d say 2 or 3 months. It varies. You can only get so scared. You can only get so—and
then you start to numb. What I did is I reached a plateau. I had, very painful now, accepted the
fact that I was going to die. Period. Ain’t no way you can survive this crap. So, I took my family
pictures, throw them in the trash can. I’ll never see them again. I became a zombie. I became a
robot. Mechanical. And highly efficient. And it was painful. After about 2 or 3 months, then you
get where, hell, you don’t care. You’re a pretty good pilot. Up until the end and then you got
about 2 months left or a month left, you started getting scared again like you’re not going to
make it to the end of the tunnel. But the middle of your tour, you’re—you seem like you do
better. But at the beginning, it’s hell. At the end it is hell. (00:38:28)
Interviewer: Okay. So, how long was it before you started to actually fly? I mean, to be a
pilot?
Veteran: Oh, I started flying on the first day.
Interviewer: Yeah, but piloting your own?
Veteran: Aircraft commander?
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: I don’t remember. It was…I was in the process. I was with the—I was flying Slicks.
Slicks are the UH-1D models that carried the troops into battle.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: Hauled them out. Hauled out the dead and wounded. Took in water and ammo and stuff
and things. So, I was in the Slick platoon. I got tired of getting shot at, shot all to hell, and not
�shooting back. And my buddies were in the gun platoon. So, I asked my commanding officer if I
could go to the gun platoon. He said, “Well, I will think about it when an opening comes.” So,
they put me in the gun platoon. So, then I started flying gunships and help provide rockets and
machine gun fire around the LZ while my buddies went in and out, you know.
Interviewer: Right. Now at this point, were you aircraft commander or…?
Veteran: Oh yeah. But before that, like I said, I was in my company doing these things. The
United States Navy had what they called a brown-water Navy. These are your PBRs and your
RAG boats. River rats, they called them. And these guys were working their runs in swamp.
Treacherous, treacherous, swamp. They call it the Forest of Assassins. It’s the devil’s swamp. It
was horrible. (00:40:08)
Veteran: But brown—these PBRs were out there. They get in big trouble, they had to call for a
helicopter. A gunship. Golly, that’s like, you know. Take forever and every second is precious.
So, the Navy decided that the—that this Naval operation should have its own in-house
helicopters. The Navy, finest pilots in the world, didn’t know how to fly Hueys. They flew other
stuff. So, I was selected as one of the 8 Army pilots to go down there and fly their combat
missions to support these PBRs and RAG boats and stuff. And SEALs: SEAL team 1, SEAL
team 2. So, all of a sudden, I am able to do that. And here comes all these Navy pilots. They get
trained and dispersed and stuff like that to pick up on that, not only how to fly the helicopter but
how to fly a whale. How to do combat tactics and strategies and of course all the maintenance
that goes with it and all that stuff. So, I was down there for a little while. But I was an aircraft
commander down there. And you just—whenever your boss thinks you’re smart enough to come
out and come home again, that’s when they make you an aircraft commander. But we had a
�turnover, you know. We had boys killed so we had new guys all the time. So, if you lived long
enough, you became an aircraft commander because you had the experience.
Interviewer: Okay. Now, when you were with the Navy…When you were with the Navy,
where were you based? (00:42:02)
Veteran: Well, I was at an R and R center called Vũng Tàu. Beautiful place. And it was pretty
peaceful, pretty quiet, pretty—I had a shower, I had meals. I spent the day there. And at the
night, I would fly out into a place called Máy Bay, which is the worst place on earth. It was
incredible. But it was right at the long tunnel at the start of the Red River and middle of
the…Mosquitoes are so bad, you open your eyes and fill them with mosquitoes. Open your
mouth, they’re filled with mosquitoes. Dead people floating down the river. Had rats. It was not
good. Pythons. It was not good. But that’s where I was. I was out at Máy Bay. And we flew at
night. Leaving Vũng Tàu late afternoon was my daytime flying and I sank sand pads and do a
little combat target opportunity. But when we got to Máy Bay, put the ship down, fully armed.
There’s quite a check—there is quite a procedure to start a helicopter. Circuit breaker this, switch
that, do this, throttle this. Quite a thing. Same thing with the shutdown. But when we shut down,
at Máy Bay, the only thing we shutdown was the master switch. And I guarantee you, when you
called me on the radio, I’d be on my way in 5 minutes. That’s turning up the turbine and getting
everything and the door gunner’s on and rocket pods connected. I mean, out the door we went.
(00:44:14)
Veteran: Because it was crucial. Critical. Every minute—every second counted. And it wasn’t
bad. Here you are in the middle of the river. Here’s the tree line. I got tracers going for the tree
line towards you or I got you shooting at them, showing me where they are on the riverbank. So,
I’d go down, I’d just mow grass on the riverbanks. I mean, I’d put some stuff in there: rockets
�and machine gun fire. So, we were pretty efficient. But you, out there floating around on that
little river, dinky boat, boy you were highly vulnerable. And you know, a lot of guys got hurt.
Well, I was honored by the Seawolf Association. I was a guest speaker in 2012. And it’s kind of
funny: I was the old guy. I was 23-24, so I was the old guy. And I had—I was a mentor or
‘school marm’ they called me. Instructor, teacher, with this green flight suit. And they called me
‘Granny in a green gown.’ But they loved me and I loved them. And these Seawolf guys, they
went on to be the Navy’s most decorated, most honored aviation combat assault unit in their
history. So, they took off for—I lift off and boy they went. And they had a lot to do with that preTet Offensive stuff. The bad guys were down there in our part of real estate and that’s what they
were getting gearing up for. The Tet Offensive was planned by the communists. And so, we were
down there messing around, stumbling over things and finding things and trying to prevent
things and discovering things. And when I left the SEALs, I went with the Special Forces and
that’s what we did up around Tay Ninh—Tay Ninh to west Sông Bé, Cau Sông Bé—is look for
bunkers, look for ammunition caches and stuff. So, that’s what all my effort was about was that
pre-68 preparation. Junction City was a huge helicopter mission. (00:46:48)
Interviewer: Yep.
Veteran: And I was leaving as that…I was working up until that started to kick off and I left to
come home. Had my tail rotors shot my last day flying. I flew my last day.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: Back early on, they’d give you 30 days at the end of your tour. You didn’t fly. It—you
know—work around the company area or do something, you know. But I flew the very last day.
Interviewer: Now, did that helicopter crash or did you get back to base?
�Veteran: Oh, it wasn’t bad. Shot a hole through the blade.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: You got a real high frequency buzz in the pedals and you’re in danger of your blade
coming off. if your tail rotor comes off, you started spinning. That’s not good. Because that blade
creates a lot of torque, the issues is it wants to go counter that to catch up with it. So, they put
that tail rotor on to stabilize it so you can have a…So, if you lose that, you’re in deep trouble. If
you lose the tail rotor, you’re in deep trouble anyway. If you lose a gear box—if it falls off—
you’re dead because you do this and you can’t catch time. (00:48:05)
Veteran: But I took a bullet hole through my tail rotor and…And I had a—this was funny too—I
received a direct commission. So, enlisted men and warrant officers can move from one
assignment to the next without orders, printed orders. A commissioned officer has to have
printed orders in his hand. So, I got extended beyond my deros about 6-weeks. Boy, that was
terrible. I sweated every day until my deros and then I got there and realized I got to wait on
these damn orders. Well, I was out flying and they called me and said they had my orders. So, I
looked at my aircraft commander, or—yeah, my aircraft commander, I looked at him. I said,
“Well…” He said, “Ed,” he said, “if you leave, I’ll have to shut this ship down. If you stay with
me, we can do about 2 more hours worth of work and I’ll take you back.” And I said, “Okay.”
Like pulling teeth. But I—my captain was a really, really good guy. And I was a brand-new
second lieutenant so I wanted to be a good guy too. So, we finished out the day. Well, another
guy that got commissioned with me was a really good friend. He was a punk kid just like me.
And he was held up on waiting for orders in my same outfit. So, he and I were kind of like
sweating it out every day. So, I got my orders and he was out there jacking around in combat.
And Major Schroeder—Harry Schroeder—was our commanding officer then. He goes in to see
�Major Schroeder. And Major Schroeder sees him coming to the door and he says, “No, you’re
not going to quit flying. You’re going to keep flying.” You know…And he didn’t have his orders
in. And they had, right after we left, he had taken—Hal had gone to take a shower to shower
point. And this was just a big meadow-like strip. And they had all kinds of goods for Junction
City: ammo, you name it, they had stacked out there and stuff. And Hal had gone over to this
little shower point to take a shower. You took a shower when you got a chance, you know.
(00:50:48)
Veteran: And he was walking back from the shower and Hal was skinny as a broomstick. I mean,
he was a little skinny guy. He’s walking back wrapped in a towel. And mortars start flowing on
the meadow-like. And Hal was too far from the damn bunkers so he jumped in this ditch. And
the mortars are raining down. And I guess Major Schroeder thought this would have scared the
crap out of him and he wanted to go home. He didn’t want to fly anymore but he walked in the
tent. You know, and Major Schroeder said, “No, you’re going to keep flying.” He said, “No, I
am not.” he got hit in the ass with a piece of shrapnel. To make it even worse, you know where
his orders were? On the backside of mine.
Interviewer: Oh…
Veteran: They didn’t turn it over to see that he was on the backside. And I didn’t know that. I
didn’t know this was going on. So, I got down and the sergeant major, command sergeant major,
just rolled up the red carpet for me. He ran from here to there, turn in this, turn in my weapon,
get my records, do this, get my duffel bag and take me down to the processing center where you
go home. (00:52:13)
�Veteran: And I was unexpected. Nobody expected me there. So, I showed up at this Camp LBJ I
think it—I can’t remember what they called it. And it was dark. It was night already. It looked
like a chicken house with chicken wire and had these clerks back there, getting these guys
booked onto flights to fly home. And I walked up there to that wire like that and I looked at
his—and he was a lieutenant. And I was a lieutenant. I said, “Lieutenant so-and-so, what’s the
chance of getting a ride home?” You know. I said, “I have already been extended 6 weeks, you
know.” And I was kind of buddying up with him, you know. And he was pretty serious. He was
a serious chap. He looked at me, he said, “Well,” he says, “stick around right here.” He said, “I
got either 4 or 6 enlisted men—they had gotten sloppy drunk and they weren’t going to let them
board the airplane.” So, their seats came up for grabs. And he said, “Now I got you a seat.” You
know, I guess they reported that these 4 boys were drunks. And this guy pushed me from the
back over the top of my shoulders, “I need a seat too.” I look back and he was Hal Sharpless.
And he must got there faster than I did but my god, we wanted to go home. We were ready to go
home. That’s kind of funny but…You did—at the end there Jim you get kind of like I am not
going to make it. I am not going to make it. You know like bugbear is going to get me before I
get to the loader, you know. But it was…It was something else. Something else. (00:54:10)
Interviewer: Okay. Now, you get to go home then?
Veteran: Huh?
Interviewer: You got to go home—you come back from Vietnam. You get a leave?
Veteran: Yeah. I flew to Travis Air Force base. I got there and had to go to I think Los Angeles.
And I was going to take a cab to go to the airport so I could catch my flight to DFW. And well,
outside the cab driver wouldn’t let me inside his cab because I had on my uniform. They had a
�shuttle bus—an old Army shuttle bus—so I went over. I sat on that damn bus for hour or two and
then they drove me over to the LAX. And I missed my flight. So, I had to spend about 20 hours
there at the terminal. You don’t know how bad I wanted to be home. But I sat there, had these
flower children and weirdos and stuff that were trying to sell me a diamond watch or making fun
of me or crap like that. But I sat there and when I got home, it was good to be home. Good old
rural America, you know.
Interviewer: Right. Alright, did your children know who you were?
Veteran: Huh?
Interviewer: Did your children know who you were?
Veteran: My little hometown was a little bitty town. Texarkana Gazette wrote me up for these
banners flying across and all that kind of crap. Helicopter pilots were heroes. I wasn’t. I was
wetting my pants all the time. I was scared to death. You know? But if you were a helicopter
pilot, you didn’t buy beer in a bar. If there was an infantryman in there, you didn’t buy a beer. He
bought you a beer. And blah blah blah. It was a helicopter war, highly publicized. (00:56:11)
Veteran: And so, I think that’s why as a helicopter pilot, I experienced this notoriety or stuff. But
to be honest with you Jim, I was just a scared young man. And, funny, my biggest fear was that I
wouldn’t look good in front of my peers. And boy, they were outstanding. And I think that they
were doing the same thing: trying to be the best. And if I numb you out, you can function that
way. You’re not nervous, you’re not screwed up. You’re clear thinking and ah, okay. You go do
it. But when you are scared out of your mind? Boy, it is a tough job. And I was scared. I got into
weather situations. I got shot down. I had maintenance problems. Things like that. Had some
pretty desperate missions to go pick up a lurp team or recon team and not know where the hell
�they were. Triple canopy jungle and Charlie’s right on them. And you got to get there. You got
to be worth something. You got to get there. So, that was always frightening. But I always
managed to get there. And we had what you called FM homing where you key your mic on an Fbox mic radio and my little needle would point at you. I didn’t know how far you were out there
but my little needle would point at you. So, I would go through there and you get down at a
different canopies or soft grass where this is at and you say, “Mustang 2-4,” or whatever my call
sign was. “You’re over the top of us.” So, then another one sets down. And a lot of times we pull
them out with jungle penetrators. That’s a 200-foot long rope with a horse collar on it. Pull the
guys up through there. And I pulled a guy up through the—it was like I broke his arms. He put
his rifle across his arms and the donut broke his arms but he didn’t turn loose. We saved him.
(00:58:25)
Veteran: But it got really down to nip and tuck. I mean, in little situations like that. A lot of
young men are very fortunate to be alive because they missed it by that much. And I think
helicopters were the reason why. I hauled guys to the rear. Jim, they looked like hamburger meat
and they lived. But it was getting in there to blood expanders and lifesaving stuff that saved their
lives. And I am grateful that I got to do that. I am grateful. I am not proud of killing people, I am
proud of saving people’s lives.
Interviewer: Right. Now, yesterday when we were talking, you talked about an incident
where you got into trouble with your commander—
Veteran: Oh, yeah.
Interviewer: --because you took too big of risks?
�Veteran: Yeah. Well, I had a thought process that if you call me—you’re an RTO or whatever—
and you got a guy down there that is dying, or about to die or…If I go get you, I may or might
get killed. Very likely I might. That’s what I said to them. If I don’t go get you, you definitely
will die. I couldn’t turn them down. And I am telling you, I did wet my pants. My tongue swelled
up and filled my mouth out of fear. But by god, I went and got them. (01:00:11)
Interviewer: So, why did your commander have a problem?
Veteran: Well, I was flying a gunship not designed for extractions or med evacuation. But a
damned, old, heavy gunship. And on this radio, this RTO was pleading for somebody to come
get this infantryman, young enlisted man. He took a chest wound. He was going to expire. And
there I was, turning around the gunship, and this slick called and said, “Well, we’d like to help
but the situation is too hot.” This other one called in, said “Well, we’d like to help but we can’t
wait around. We are low on fuel and, you know, the situation hasn’t improved.” I said to
myself—I said, “Just get out of the way.” What I did is going in, I shot all my rockets, shot all
my—just exhausted my ammunition ordinance, just lightening it up a little but which wasn’t
enough but it…And I went in there and I picked up this grunt. It was an unbelievable challenge
to take off out of that hole because of the heat and the…But I got him out. There were two other
crew members with the other 4 pilots, they reported me for being a—reckless.
Interviewer: Okay. Alright. I am going to pause right here. Alright, so the other pilots
basically turned you in? Or, they reported you?
Veteran: They were good men. They were heroes. They did a lot of stuff. But they weren’t as
abandoned as I was. I had given up my life. I was going to die. I might as well die looking good,
you know. They were practical men. My mission was to access them. That’s all. Save my bacon.
�But if my door gunner or crew chief or co-pilot or even me, if we had been badly wounded, it’d
have been different. If the helicopter would have sustained serious combat damage or even been
shot down, they had to—they had a poker hand. You know? (01:02:41)
Veteran: But they reported, not to make me—not to hurt me but to kind of straighten me up. So, I
went in front of my commanding officer. He was a wonderful man. And he began to chew my
butt out. Like I am liable. I put these men’s lives on the line. One thing I always did, Jim, is
when I took on something like this, I asked my crew: hey, we got this guy out here, shot through
the lungs. It’s pretty hot—you guys want to go get him? And my men, my enlisted men, and my
co-pilots would always say, “We are with you, sir.” Can I tell you something? Those men were
heroic too. Maybe more heroic than me because they were a cardinal group. They were thinking.
And they were backing me up. But they could have said, “Now, I ain’t sure.” And they could
hem and haw around and I would have come up with something different then. But any rate, I
would sit there. And I really didn’t give a damn. And I mean, I was going to die. Who cared if—
court martial, what are you going to do? Send me to Vietnam? (01:04:10)
Veteran: You know? So, I sit there and out of respect. I respected my commanding officer very
much. I sit there while he told me what I already knew. But it made me think. It really did make
me think that well boy, you sure did put them guys in a tough situation. By the way, the man
lived. He took a chest wound, shot through his lungs. But I got him before he died and he—we
saved his life. But I was still pretty cocky. After the major—I was a warrant officer. After the
major got through chewing my ass—I mean, chewing it out. Naturally. He, like a good
commander, would always say, “What do you have to say for yourself?” And I looked at him,
you know, and I said, “Well sir, if it was you laying on that ground in the hot sun and the hot LZ,
with a bullet through your lungs, and I come and pulled you out, would you be chewing my ass
�right now?” That was really unfair of me but by god, it was true. And he told me, he said, “Mr.
Ramon, get out of my sight.” He ran me out. I am sure that he had a respect for what I did. But I
am sure he had enough managerial thought to take care of his own men, take care of his nation,
and do it the right way. I was just a loose cannon on the deck but I got chewed out a couple
times. And I did some things that should have been decorated for but I got, you know, my butt
kicked for them. So, you can be-you can be too reckless. You can kill people in combat if you’re
a stupid lieutenant or stupid captain or bad sergeant. You can…You can cause harm trying to do
good. But by the grace of God, I was blessed. I was okay. (01:06:42)
Interviewer: Okay. Now, you told another story. You told me about having a CBS news
reporter fly with you?
Veteran: Yeah. That’s kind of funny. You know, the news media…You know, they want to—if
you bleed, it leads, you know. And I think it was Walt Thomas on the news with CBS. I don’t
remember who it was but it was a big, big media. And they wanted to know about this Cobra.
Cobra was pretty sophisticated, pretty new stuff. So, they worked with the information office in
different places. And they come up with this young reporter. They gave him permission to—
what do they call that? A quitclaim or something like that. Or release of liability. Whatever. But
they got the young man cleared to ride with me on the Cobra in hostile territory. Nice kid. Very
curious. Good, smart boy. And I took him around and showed him the helicopter. And it was
pretty sophisticated. We had 400—40-millimeter grenades. Bad boys. We had 72 rockets with
17-pound warheads. And we had 8000 rounds of linked 762 ammunition. Blah blah blah blah
blah blah. (01:08:15)
Veteran: How fast it would go and what it would do. It was only 36 inches wide. So, it was a
fighter plane, is what it was. And we got in and since I was on camera and everything, I went by
�the numbers. Went through the checklist and why we did it that way, so that if we were low on
ammo, we wouldn’t skip a circuit breaker or do anything wrong. Kept turning up. Had another
slick over here with cameras on it and they were going to film us. And they communicated with
us a little bit. First thing you do when you take-off is you make sure you don’t fly into an
artillery barrage somewhere. So, I checked with all the artillery centers and found out where it
was safe to go. We had free fire zones that were bad places. You could shoot in there any time
you wanted to. You didn’t need to talk to nobody. You go in there, you see activity, you know, it
was imminent activity. So, I got over one of those and I was going through my radios. And I
came up with this outfit and they were pushing some bad guys into the canals or into the—So,
they had some bad guys. And I said, “Well, you need a Cobra strike?” And they said, “Oh, yeah.
Sure.” I said, “Well, puff some smoke.” And they did and I identified their smoke. And the bad
guys are on this side and they were on this side. So, I went in there. Well, in a Cobra strike, the
ones I like, you take the aircraft straight nose up at about 3000 feet. You need some altitude
because when you come down, you come down fast. Take it up about 3000 feet, zero up the air
speed and you roll it over. And you end up nose down and it’s like dropping marbles in a coffee
can. I mean, those rockets—you don’t miss. It’s a challenge to shoot rockets. (01:10:35)
Veteran: And trajectory is like shooting a basketball. You might be good or you might miss. But
this was mass effective. And I was out there by myself. I didn’t have a sister gunship. So, we got
into that and I winged it over like that. And this voice started to break up. I don’t know if it’s G
forces or fear but he said, “Captain Ramon, we are upside down.” I said, “We are.” And then we
are coming down and he is looking right at the target, you know, and it don’t take you long to go
3000 feet. And it’s boom, boom, boom. And he was better than any sports announcer. He was
announcing about what he saw down there. We came down, we came out and we came out into
�some intensive automatic weapons fire. We got the main body but we didn’t get…And you could
hear the machine guns—the automatic weapons fire. But when you come out of that dive, boy
you are cooking. So, when I climbed back up—and the survivors of our attack, they were headed
for the canals to get to these sampans to escape. So, we went back and we just shot all those
sampans. And the good guys caught up with them and I guess they took them as prisoners or
killed them or whatever they did with them. That was funny. That reporter, he—And, just a
while back, he contacted—I guess by social media or the internet or—he found me. (01:12:23)
Veteran: I think he found me because of my book. And he called and asked me if I was so-and-so
and I said, “Yeah.” Asked me if I could remember him. I said, “Well, yeah.” And he asked me if
we took off out of Long Thôn north. I said, “Yeah.” And it was him. It was this kid. And he was
thrilled. And he’s a big shot I guess in film-making—film industry out in California somewhere.
And had a nice talk. Small world, huh Jim? But that was funny. He was—that was funny. I could
tell you another story about another non-combatant. A dentist.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: Did I tell you about that? We had this guy and we were in Vũng Tàu. And we hung
around there and, you know, we were macho, we were tough. Most of these people were doctors
and dentists and recreation R and R people. And we were the combat guys that were the small
bunch. And this dentist liked to hang out with us. We had a bar. You know, he’d hang out with
us. So, he was macho. He was a good kid. But a dentist. And he wanted to go on one of our
missions. Said, “Okay.” You know, we were going toa take him into the middle of the swamp.
But we did a lot of maintenance and stuff around there. And we had a radio jamming station
there that was screwing with the Air Force cargo traffic in there. So, we got together 3 ships so
�we decided that we are going to triangulate. You get a bearing, you get a bearing, you get a
bearing and the middle segment, that’s where this bad guy would be. (01:14:23)
Veteran: So, we did that. Well, he went with me. And he’s sitting over in the co-pilot’s seat and
the gunner’s seat. Boy, he is probably peeking out. War hero, you know. So, we took off and we
found this little—because it was a tile or stone structure. It was a hard—little hard hut. And
that’s where they had their radio jamming equipment in there. So, now the race was on to get to
see who was the first guy to get there to blow it away. Well, I won that race too. And because it
was a hard target, I thought I would do a salvo, hoping I hit it, which I was pretty good. But if I
didn’t hit it, that the other two ships would be there and they’d polish it off. But I wanted to get
it. They had—the Army then was in a learning stage, so we had rocket pilots with shorter
warheads. We had long warheads, short rocket pods, long rocket pods. If your warhead stuck out
of the pod, when a rocket left the pod, these little folded fins would fling out. It would shear
those fins off and then the rocket would go wherever it wanted to go. And we’d kill some people
doing that back in research and development. Okay, well that’s not good. So, then they started
coming out with longer pods. Well, you could fire a short rocket from a long pod. That’s okay.
(01:16:14)
Veteran: But my problem was I had long pods and then some short warheads. Stuff the ordinance
we were disposing of or using on other stuff. But that’s what I was loaded up with was a shorter
warheads. When a helicopter comes hovering by you, they blow gravel. And the gravel is going
up in the pods and it was locking the warheads in the pods. Well, here I come over this target. I
got an end of a loader and I am going to fire all my rockets at one shot. You know, to
make…And we rolled in on the target like that and I am coming at a pretty steep dive. Not
plunging far but pretty steep. Looking at that thing and I punched the rockets off and all the
�rockets on my side left the tubes and went to the target. The rockets on his side stayed in the pod.
Can you imagine the thrust? So, then we are going like this and we turn sideways. That should
have torn the tail boom off but we turned sideways. The crew chief had a monkey strap. He went
out there and pulled the release. And he was actually jumping up and down and stomping on the
pod outside the helicopter. But the force of that thrust had kind of locked in there. Well, finally
the pod came off and he damn near fell out of the helicopter but he had a strap. And that pod
flew around and went into there. Well, it scared the crap out of all of us. You can imagine that.
And the dentist is over there. He was holding on to the—he was holding on to the console like
that. And he was just—he was out of it. His hands were white. He didn’t want to fly in
helicopters no more. But that was funny. Scared the shit out of—well, it scared the shit out of me
but it scared him too, you know. But there was humor in—sick humor—but any time you survive
something, you feel okay, you know? (01:18:43)
Interviewer: Okay. Now, when you were not flying, how did you spend your time?
Veteran: Getting drunk. Sleeping. Cleaning equipment. Playing poker. Didn’t have much free
time.
Interviewer: Okay. Was the weather sometimes too bad to fly?
Veteran: Yes. We flew anyway but it was—it got pretty dangerous. Some visibility. Monsoons.
We lost a couple of ships in a thunderstorm. You know, the winds can get up to 600 knots.
Destroy helicopters. You don’t fly in the thunderstorms. But we lost some—a couple of ships.
There was also a clatter with a rock in it. That’s a mountain you don’t see because…And I got
into areas like that and didn’t know if I was going to kiss a mountain or not. But I, you know,
came out. I was flying out to this little valley and I saw something sparkling. And I thought it
�was sunlight on the windshield of a vehicle. I looked down there and I was curious what was a
vehicle doing down there. (01:20:07)
Veteran: It was a quad 50. And the aircraft went out of Korea. Those suckers will shoot to 60007000 feet. There I was in this valley. Two mouths on both sides. And clouds over the top. You
better believe I punched into them clouds, not knowing if I’d kiss a rock or not but the quad 50
wasn’t going to get me. Or hopefully it wouldn’t get me. But weather was a cutter and we lost
guys. A lot of people were killed in aviation accidents in combat because of what you’d call pilot
error. For crying out loud, your margin for error is like that. But if you screw up, you kill people.
you kill yourself.
Interviewer: Okay. Now, you had trained originally as a medic. Did you use your medic
training in Vietnam?
Veteran: Maybe a self-bandage on a scratch.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: We got scratched all the time. I must have been shot 50 times. But no Purple Heart, just
a scratch or cut. Like, you know, like that. I got shot through the hand. That required some
stitches and stuff. But we got guys that—who’d get scratched. We had sometimes a severe onset
of diarrhea. I knew what to do and how to help them out. Get them some fluids and take care of
them. But no. I wasn’t a…
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: I had been—I went and got this…You know, that Medal of Honor thing, I went and got
this ARVN Ranger Paratrooper. He had broken femurs, both of them. And bleeding badly but I
�didn’t have time to treat him. My—I had to get him out of there. And so, I threw him over my
shoulders and ran 200 meters to get him out. And before we got there, the crew chief, door
gunner came back throw him up on the—because he was in deep trouble. But he lived. He
survived. I don’t know how well he healed ans... (01:22:39)
Interviewer: Now, you mentioned a Medal of Honor. Have you been nominated for that?
Veteran: I was decorated for picking up this paratrooper. And they gave me an Air Medal, which
is nice. It’s like a Bronze Star for valor. And I didn’t know I was going to get it. I didn’t go in
there for the medal, I went in there to get this guy out. And a couple of weeks later, this—I got a
call to go to this decoration ceremony. They gave me an Air Medal. Hell, I had 24 Air Medals,
you know. But it was nice. You know, thoughtful. And…Oh, about the last 25 years, a bunch of
people who knew me and saw this decoration, including Major-General Eisenhower, they
thought that was a pretty weak deal, you know. So, they wanted to see if I could get the Medal of
Honor. And they made a petition. They wrote up a citation. They did all this stuff. Fortunately,
all this was documented by the other decoration. But the guy that wrote it up—I don’t know who
wrote it up. But the guy who wrote it up left out the crocodiles and the automatic weapons fire,
the fact that I had holes shot in my blouse and my trousers. You know, and that I had to run 200
meters to get this guy. They left all that out. They just—that you know, he did a good job, he
saved this paratrooper’s life. You know. (01:24:19)
Veteran: Some difficult flying and some danger. But anyway, that put all that together the day
before 9/11. That’s, what…18 years ago. General Eisenhower and Sergeant McCarthy and
Sergeant Duke and Specialist Larry Carlisle. My co-pilot was alive then. And he submitted a
sworn affidavit about the crocodiles and the little holes and the incredible flying getting out of
that little bitty hole so we could even get close to him. 200 meters is a long ways through a
�mangrove swamp. But I didn’t—I was walking on water. I didn’t—I was moving out. I was
physically fit then.
Interviewer: Okay. So…
Veteran: But they put all that together and they sent it to Senator Inhofe who—a Republican
Senator. And Jim Inhofe had given me 51 decorations before that at a ballpark. Baseball. This is
in the vogue and pony show time. He’s a veteran. He’s an advocate. What most politicians are.
They want the veteran vote. But Jim. It was sent to Jim, to his chief of staff and to him. Never
heard anything back. Nothing. After about 3 or 4 years, I inquired. They didn’t know what was
going on. Then I inquired again and it was supposed to be over here at Department of the Army
or Department of Defense. Some damn place. Never heard from them again. So, General
Eisenhower—he’s a friend. He got a little bit ticked off. So, he’s taken it on himself to write
letters, put together things. And they have also now submitted through a North Carolina
Congresswoman. (01:26:32)
Veteran: She’s an advocate for veterans and of course she wants veterans vote. She takes care of
the veterans. And so, they are hoping that she will. She’s a Senator. And if they get this damn
thing out of the trash can, they either approve it or disapprove it.
Interviewer: Right.
Veteran: I don’t care if they approve it or disapprove it. Of course, I want it approved but if they
disapprove it, I saved a life and I got decorated and I am okay.
Interviewer: Okay.
�Veteran: I’d like it for my granddaughter and my kids and my great-grandchildren. By the way,
we are expecting another great grandchild. I just found that out. But I’d love for my family to
have something to hold onto. I cherish my grandfather’s and my great-grandfather’s. They were
Comanches and stuff. But I honored them as men that stood up for what they believed in.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: And I’d like for my little kids to think that of me. One reason why Jim is I alienated my
children and my loved ones, my family, because of really, really, bad PTSD. I ran off everybody
that loved me. I’ve come around now and I am doing much better. But for 40 years, it was bad
news. Broken glass—I had a hard life.
Interviewer: Alright. Now, let’s circle back a little bit. First of all, explain about the
crocodiles.
Veteran: What?
Interviewer: The Crocodiles. (01:28:02)
Veteran: Oh, the crocodiles. Oh my God…When I went to get this guy, I found what you call a
high-speed trail. And it went through an abandoned village. And it was on a river. So, I ran down
that trail. I was hooking them, which was better than coming back. But down this high-speed
trail, I got to the river, I had to turn right and go about 40 meters down the river. And this
paratrooper was—had both legs broken. Femurs. Blood bleeding through his. His risers had
fallen across a big old tree stump. And his canopy was bouncing off the river. And I was afraid if
that thing filled with water, that would drag him to his death. You know. So, I went slushing out
there through the mud. Ankle deep—knee deep, which is hard walking. And I got it. And just as
I got him, bullets start flushing water and mud up around me. Bad guys were shooting at me
�from across the river. There I am, wide open. Kill zone. So, I took this paratrooper over my back.
And I get back to the shore, to the bank. Well, I can’t run down the bank to get to that pass—that
high-speed trail because they will have blown me down before I got there. So, I plunged right
into the mangroves. And they have a Crocodylus porosus. They call them ‘salties.’ ‘Maneaters.’
‘Sinkhole crocodiles.’ These are the big boys that you see in Australia.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: Ran right through the middle of them. Everywhere. They would have killed me
probably or eaten me—both of us—but the village was not abandoned. It wasn’t abandoned.
They had an ambush set up there. I ran right through that ambush and they had discipline, they
held their fire. But when these guys across the river opened up on me, then they opened up on
me. And they were close. (01:30:22)
Veteran: Had leaves, limbs, things falling down on me while I am running. But that spooked the
crocodiles. So, I didn’t get—I wasn’t made into lunch. Got back to the chopper and all there
waiting was my aircraft commander and co-pilot. We alternated. And all they was—they were
waiting on me. He didn’t take-off to leave me. And my crew chief—we put that pitiful ARVN
solider…Never made a sound. All while I was running with him. When I laid him on the deck,
he started to scream. Like he had a lot of shock or something but it allowed him to—but he
started to scream. You know…Crew chief was helping. But we saved him. We did. Well, that’s a
biggie. Any time you save a human life, that is kind of a biggie. But with the special forces’
advisors, what we were really happy about was I sprung this damn ambush that their guys were
going to walk into. And they would have sustained serious casualties. You know. Boys would
have been killed in action, but that would have been a bummer if those rangers had of walked
into that village. It was a horseshoe ambush. They would have been fish in a barrel. But I sprang
�it so they dealt with it a little differently. But I think that’s the big thing that they were the Medal
of Honor campaigning was. I wasn’t heroic. I didn’t know it was going to be that bad. If I had
known it, I’d have probably left town, you know. (01:32:11)
Interviewer: Alright. Okay. Let’s kind of wind—go back in your story. So, you kind of
gotten you through your first tour in Vietnam, where you talked about that and you come
back home to the states. What assignments do you get when you get home?
Veteran: What did I do?
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: First tour. I went to Fort Eustis, Virginia. And they had a job there as the Secretary of
the Aviation Administration. It was a major’s job. I was a second-lieutenant but I had, you know,
I had years of…So, they gave me that job. It was at Felker Army Airfield. And Colonel Hill and
Major Moffatt and a couple of really wonderful guys. One of my co-pilots from Seawolf was
there. So, I stayed there a little while. And then, I wanted to move my wife and my children to
closer to their family. They were in Georgia. So, I asked for and got a transport to Fort Stewart,
Georgia. Camp Swampy. As bad as Vietnam. But I went there and I became part of a—I can’t
remember. I think it was 267th aviation battalion. And we trained pathfinders how to get
helicopters in to LZs and stuff. So, I did that. And made first-lieutenant. And I was—I was
always screwed up. The PTSD was getting me. I was not an officer gentleman. I was drinking.
Fist fighting. Wild as a hare. (01:34:07)
Veteran: So, I decided I better go back to Vietnam. And I had a guilt. Unreasonable guilt. My
friends died and I chickened out. So, I went to Cobra school and then I went to Vietnam. And
wasn’t there too long. Got—broke my back. Med-evaced to Camp Sakai, Japan. Told I would
�never walk again. And I was told that I would never walk again, I felt like I had paid my debt for
killing children. I felt like I had paid my debt. But I was able to—I was able to walk again. And
I’ve come light years because of people who care about Vietnam War. People like you. What
was it all about? What did it do to our young men and women? And my discipline now is
psychology. I counsel veterans. I do really well at it. I helped a lot of them. Had a few commit
suicide. And that is always sad. My little brother committed suicide. But I think what you’re
doing, Jim, is terribly important. As a historian. You know, who was it? Henry Steele Commager
said, “If you don’t remember history, you can relive it.” Well, we are reliving that now.
Interviewer: Yeah. Now, did the back injury, did that end your military career? When you
broke your back, did that end your military career? (01:36:02)
Veteran: No, it didn’t. It screwed it up. It wasn’t a broken back, it was compressions. I tore a
bunch of certain muscles. And a lot of pressure on the sciatic nerve. I had a big tumor about that
big. The tumor dissolved and my feeling came back. And I really had it back to where I could
walk, where I could run, where I could stand so I was okay. But I had residuals. I think it what
caused me to get out was PTSD. I wasn’t happy. I was mercurial. I was the best officer you’d
ever, ever find and I was the sorriest you’d ever, ever find. And you can’t be that way. So, I had
a lot of accolade. I was a battalion commander. I was a captain. I was Mamie Eisenhower’s
escort officer. Vice President Agnew’s escort officer. Had a washtub full of medals. I was a
good—on the surface, a good boy. But beneath it, I was falling apart.
Interviewer: Okay. So, explain what you were doing with Vice President Agnew?
Veteran: Finding out where toilets were and opening doors. I was pretty low-level peon. But I
was a captain. And his wife was real sweet. And we would go into these—when they come to a
�military base like that, I remember giving him the technical aspects of a facsimile simulator. You
know what that is? The tube that rotated. It had a nacelle on it and that’s the way you transmitted
faxes, back in the old days.
Interviewer: Okay.
Veteran: So, I showed him how the thing worked and he was interested. As far as I knew, he was
a good guy. He was a crook but they all were. But he was an honest crook. If you know what
that—what I mean. If you’d ask him, he’d say, “Yep.” You know? His little wife was very sweet.
I hate to say this about Mamie Eisenhower, she was precious, but she was a precious little drunk.
I guess that’s because of all her life…But she drank a little bit too much. She was precious. My
main thing for her was finding the bathrooms and looking out for her. (01:38:39)
Interviewer: Okay. Now, is this what you were doing after you got back from Vietnam?
Veteran: Pardon me?
Interviewer: Were you doing this after you finished in Vietnam?
Veteran: Yes. Yes.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: Yes, this was after Vietnam.
Interviewer: Okay. When did you actually leave the service?
Veteran: When did I actually leave?
Interviewer: Yeah.
�Veteran: April 15th, 1973. And I resigned my commission April the 15th, 1975. So, I was
essentially a soldier for…What?
Interviewer: Well, ’61 to—
Veteran: 14-15 years.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: But I was angry. When I got out, they had a reduction in force. All the enlisted men
wanted out and they got out. So, they were now top heavy in middle management or company
grade officers. So, they start releasing them. Involuntarily. They’d RIF them: Reduction In
Force, they call it. So, they let out all these 1000s of captains and I was in there, still in there.
And when they RIFed me, they came down with a RIF order. I was the only guy on it. I was a,
you know, bottom of the pile. But hell, I was an infantryman, I was double rated, I was blah blah.
Cobra qualified and all that. But they RIFed me. Paid me $15,000. Paid me, threw me at the gate.
And I was angry. And about…Oh, it wasn’t long but maybe a year, they’d screwed up. What the
government usually does. They over RIFed. They threw out too many “helicopter pilots.” Do
you know what it costs to train a helicopter pilot? They have to have 1500-2000 hours before
they’re worth a damn. Do you know what it takes to train a Cobra pilot? (01:40:36)
Veteran: A test pilot? I was all these things. So, I was in—I was living in Hurst, Texas. And got a
call from Fort Hood. They wanted to bring me back on as a Cobra pilot for the cav outfits that
were there. You know, armored people. I think it was 4th infantry…I am sure. 4th—but they
wanted me there as a Cobra pilot to…Told me they’d make me a major, because I was almost a
major when I got out. And I said, “Well, how long?” And they said, “Well, we’ll guarantee you
6-months.” I said, “No.” I said, “I need 6 years and retirement or you can forget it.” And I said,
�“When all the foreigns and all the women that you’ve insulted and everything, you can’t recruit
anybody.” I said, “I might go then but not until then.” I was a smart ass. But I cut my nose off to
spite my face. I probably would have—I’d have gone back on active duty the way things turned
out. You know, the Mid East Wars. I probably would have been sticking around as a Cobra pilot
as an aviation commander for probably a pretty good while. If I had behaved myself. But I was
not a good boy then. Today, I’d make a wonderful commander. I’ve been an old geezer. Been
smart, been practical. You know, been… (01:42:20)
Interviewer: Yep.
Veteran: Been good. Been a good guy but back then, I was a little bit dangerous.
Interviewer: Yeah. And you went down further and then—and you went down more after
that and then eventually got yourself all the way back up again.
Veteran: I fell apart in 1984. Ended up in the fetal position on the floor of a V hospital. I lost it
all. I lost it all. But I screwed up with people up until 1984. Divorced wives and quit jobs and,
you know. But I started coming back in 1984. And in 1990, I was doing better. And the late ‘90s,
I was doing much better. Meantime, I went to graduate school. Wrote a book. Had tried my very
best to be a good guy. And I became one. I think I did.
Interviewer: Okay. Say a little about the book. It’s an unusual book.
Veteran: Oh, this book?
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: Oh, it’s a…It’s a compression of thought. It’s in poetry. It has a Christian scripture. A
secular wisdom scripture. A poem and then a prose epilogue explaining what the PTSD—what
�that’s about. Some sins I bare are always there for anyone to see. The few who care will often
stare and ask how they came to be. This scar you see below my knee came from a bursting shell.
This one here beside my ear, a sniper shell placed well. Though there’s a number I know that I
can’t show because it’s hidden so deep inside. I guess it’s true it has something to do with all my
friends that have died. But nevertheless, I must confess this scar burns me with strife. I ask and
cry, I still wonder why we were wasting such precious life. This scar I keep buried very deep and
it’s not from a bullet hole. But it will always seep and trouble my sleep because it stretches
across my soul. (01:44:55)
Veteran: Okay, that is a poem. You go to the epilogue and it talks about the physiology of a
gunshot wound or shrapnel wound. You got a hole punched in you. You start to bleed. Thrombin
is active, you coagulate. Stop the bleeding. Here comes the white blood cells. And you start
healing. If you got blood running down your arm or your leg or your face, here comes your
buddy to help you. Here comes the doctors, the hospital. You know, you got external help. But
I’ll tell you this: when you get scarred across your soul, you’re often by yourself. Often, you try
to hide it. Big boys don’t cry. You know? And it gets worse and worse. And it never, ever heals.
You have to learn how to cope with it. Have to deal with it. So, that’s what it’s like. It’s a couple
of sayings, a poem, and then an epilogue. And it goes through quite a few of them.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: Talks about a corpsman. Talks about a chaplain that got killed in the battlefield. Talks
about Army nurses that were there. Little children starving. Killing children. Mortar attacks,
artillery barrages. So, it’s quite a…It’s my picture of this. Of what the war was. And I’ve been
blessed. I have had grandmothers and wives and daughters and children and fathers that have
�come up to me crying. Because they said their book told me who their father was. Or their son or
their brother. (01:46:43)
Veteran: They didn’t know who he was. They knew he was screwed up but they didn’t know
what was going—but when they read my book, they saw him. And I gave them back to them.
And of course, you need to help. You need support. When you need help the most, that is when
you seem to alienate it or run it off.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Veteran: So, I learned that the hard way. I don’t want the youngsters today to learn it the hard
way. Sit down, you have to heal yourself, we will help you with medication, if you need it, if you
don’t need it, leave the medication alone. Leave the booze and the drugs alone. Listen to good
counsel. Talk to groups. Visit with other people who have shared common experiences. Work
your way out. And you’ll be able to hobble. You may not be able to run, but you’ll be able to
walk the rest of your life. And that is what it is all about.
Interviewer: Yeah. But it all makes for a pretty remarkable story. So, thank you very much
for taking the time to share it.
Veteran: Thank you, Jim. I appreciate what you are doing. It means something to the kids ahead
of us.
Interviewer: Right. Very good. (01:48:00)
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
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1914-
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
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RHC-27
Language
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eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
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Identifier
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RHC-27_RamonE2278V
Title
A name given to the resource
Ramon, Edward (Interview transcript and video), 2018
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-11-01
Description
An account of the resource
Edward Ramon was born in 1942 in San Antonio, Texas, and graduated high school in May of 1960. Ramon received a scholarship to play football at Texarkana Junior College, but decided to join the Army in 1961. He completed his Advanced Individual Training at Fort Ord, California, and his Finance Training at Fort Benjamin Harrison, Indiana, before he trained as a medic at Fort Sam Houston, Texas. Ramon was involved in the Cuban Missile Crisis response in the early '60s and trained as a helicopter pilot after reenlistment. He was deployed to Vietnam in January, 1966, with the 1st Aviation Brigade, 101st Airborne and the 82nd Airborne Divisions. While he primarily flew gunships, he also participated in various rescue missions in Vietnam.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Ramon, Edward
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
United States. Army
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Format
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Source
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Veterans History Project collection, RHC-27
Rights
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<a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401.
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Language
A language of the resource
eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/56a752eec770d95aebdfa6cdf573c73d.mp4
a11f01f55a44e646019b8890a1b72961
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4c3d67192c3292d6623fa585edd7d75d.pdf
875dbf3c0124a97ae1aa92fad429734b
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Laurin Ramey
Interview Length: (3:06:03)
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Chloe Dingens
Interviewer: We're talking today with Laurin Ramsey of Mona Shores, Michigan and the
interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veteran’s History
Project. Okay now Laurin begin with some background on yourself to begin with where
and when were you born?
I was born March 20th of 1923 and my mother passed away when I was three years old and my
dad never remarried, and I was brought up in my younger years by a couple of housekeepers.
And then my oldest daughter- or my sister, I had a older brother by three years and my sister was
six years older than I. When she got old enough, she took over the management of the house and
my dad worked for a- a dairy, he was a milkman and my sister run the house until she was 18
years old and graduated from high school. And then she got a job with the General Telephone
Company and she met another employee and they got together, and they got an apartment and
she moved out. It was glad to get rid of the job of keeping house for everybody, well then, we
batched it, my dad and my brother and I.
(1:42)
Interviewer: Okay and where were you at this time?
We lived at 828 Dale Avenue in Muskegon.
Interviewer: Muskegon, Michigan, okay.
We lived a couple blocks away from the Highland Park Dairy where my dad worked.
Interviewer: Okay.
�And I went with my dad a lot, in other words it was nothing like it is now that, they didn't care
whether you went in the, but my dad was a route foreman and he had six routes that he took care
of and he had three horse routes and three truck routes. And I don't know whether it was in the
summertime where they delivered milk at night so whenever you wake up in the morning
because there was no refrigeration you had a fresh bottle of milk on your doorstep, but I would
go with him in the summertime when I was on vacation, summer vacation, school and he used to
pay me a dollar and half a week for going with him. So I- I had a lot of experience and meeting
people, and going around, I- I- I didn't have time to go out for football and all that kind of stuff.
My life was pretty much all work, work.
Interviewer: Right
(3:02)
And I had my household duties to do. I had to buy the groceries on Saturday but that a little
plush because then my dad would let me drive the… his car and so I would pick the grocery
store as far away as I possibly could so I could drive. About three blocks away was a AP store
that I could go to but I went way out in the Heights, it was a store that I had known about when I
was with my dad on the milk route and that's where I went, I met my wife in this grocery store
in- in the Heights and that was a long time ago.
Interviewer: Right.
Alright when the war broke out my brother was one of the first ones to be drafted, he was in thein the lottery and his- his number came up real quick. And he ended up in the South Pacific and
he ended up in the Fiji Islands and you ain’t gonna believe this but all he did was made ice cream
all the time he was in the Fijis. He had a summer job, job at the dairy where my dad worked, and
he made ice cream and he worked with a guy that was an ice cream maker and he learned how to
�make ice cream and all the flavors and all that. And that's- that's how he got involved in the ice
cream business.
(4:33)
Interviewer: Alright and- and so the military actually placed somebody where he had the
right skills, that's good- good for them.
That's what they interview you when you're inducted, they really a- really a background check,
they want to know what they got.
Interviewer: Right. Now for you, did you finish high school?
Oh yes, I graduated in 1941.
Interviewer: Okay.
In June and I worked at the dairy, I paid- got paid 15 cents an hour and when I- I got a work
permit- permit, you had to be 14 to get a work permit. I shoveled ice cream during my summer
vacations and 15 cents an hour. I would work ten hours a day on Sundays on some days, that was
holidays and stuff, and, in those days, I made pretty good money.
Interviewer: Yeah.
(5:28)
You know I'd work ten hours and I got a buck and a half.
Interviewer: Alright now before Pearl Harbor happened, were you paying much attention
to what was going on in the world in a war in Europe? That kind of thing?
Not- not really, I mean just what you read in the paper you know but I couldn't say that I was you
know really delved into it too- too much.
Interviewer: So, you weren’t really thinking about how we might get into a war or anything
else like that?
�No.
Interviewer: Okay so how did…yeah.
Oh, Pearl Harbor.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Of course, you know hit everybody real- real hard and- and sudden. And it was a real eye opener
and all we had was the radio, you know, and the paper and it was a shock.
Interviewer: How did you hear about it?
On the radio.
Interviewer: On the radio, okay.
(6:14)
Yeah, and that's how I- I heard about it, but my brother was drafted very quickly after that.
Interviewer: Okay.
In other words, I think Roosevelt declared war on January 14th or something it was...
Interviewer: Well probably December 14th [actually Dec. 11] or before that cause
December 7th, ‘41 is Pearl Harbor and so we’re at war.
Yeah, but it was in January of ‘42 that he actually declared….
Interviewer: Legal war, okay.
On Germany and Japan but yeah, he- he was inducted in, it was called Camp Shanks in- in- in
Pennsylvania [actually New York] and he was shipped out real quick out to the South Pacific.
And as I say, he ended up in the Fiji Islands, but he never spoke about it much, but I guess a
person you know, it's something you don't mention but he did his duty.
(7:17)
Interviewer: Right.
�He did what he was told, you know you don't have no control of what- what’s gonna happen to
you. Well, he was at the time he was drafted he was working at the Central Paper Company as a,
in the lab. He was making routine tests of the paper making process throughout the plant and
when he was drafted, he got them to hire me to- to replace him. So I spent about maybe six
months doing the job that he had at the paper mill.
Interviewer: Right.
It's, making these lab tests and all that.
Interviewer: Now did you try to enlist yourself?
I tried to, yeah.
Interviewer: Okay tell that story.
Well, my dad wasn't in favor of it but I- I went down on my own to Kalamazoo, that's where the
induction center was, and I paid my own bus fare down there and I stayed overnight in a hotel.
But through the- the physical examination and so forth and they rejected me because they said I
had hypertension.
Interviewer: Okay, now what program were you trying to enter?
(8:41)
I was trying to get into the cadet program to be a pilot.
Interviewer: Okay.
And I wouldn't take nothing other than that. So, they sent me home. Soon after that I was drafted.
Interviewer: Okay.
And no problem just...
Interviewer: Alright now where did you report to first when you're drafted?
We went, we shipped out of here, there was about four railcar- passenger cars that went to Camp
�Grant, Illinois. And we all ended up- ended up there and that's where we got our shots and
another physical and we got all the tests, both written and oral and interviews and all that. We
got our uniforms and stuff.
Interviewer: Okay now this was…
To today I can't remember what the hell happened to our clothes. I don't know.
(9:40)
Interviewer: They're supposed to ship home probably, but who knows.
I don't know what happened to the clothes.
Interviewer: So- so, this is early 1943 now we're talking about. That's what's on your
service record anyways.
Yeah, yeah.
Interviewer: Okay.
Well, when we was ready to ship out, one of the corporals that was in the cadre of Camp Grant
took three or four of us and we, he said, “you're in the chemical warfare,” and he took us down to
it was called Camp Sibert, Alabama it was, we went by train and it was a wartime camp, tar
paper barracks, everything was tar paper, gravel roads, everything, but it was strictly wartime
deal. Everything was, we had barracks that probably held, oh maybe twenty-five guys and they
were up on cement blocks off the ground and no, just studs in the inside and paper… tar paper…
Interviewer: Tar paper.
…on the outside and the latrine was down the street and the mess hall was down the other way
and then they had like kind of an office deal where the Officers hung out and they run the place.
And they had a little supply area, but it was- it was- it was okay. There was a potbelly stove at
the end of each one and so forth but…
�(11:18)
Interviewer: Okay now were you getting basic training there or were they already
putting…
Basic training.
Interviewer: Okay.
We were, yeah and basically everything was pre-war, pre-world War, I mean prewar, it was old
stuff.
Interviewer: So, like World War I vintage equipment.
There you go, it was old stuff. We had leggings and shoes and we- we had, the rifles we had
were Enfield rifles, they were English Enfield rifles. Old, old stuff and everything was pretty old,
it was nothing that was new, everything was old. Well basically they emphasized Army courtesy,
discipline, and definitely physical conditioning.
Interviewer: Okay.
(12:18)
And the rest of it was very, it was old, and it they- they didn't have the stuff to tell- tell you, we
saw one M1 rifle that- that was the only one we’d seen.
Interviewer: Okay now what kind of physical shape were you in at that time?
I was about twenty years old or nineteen.
Interviewer: Yeah.
I was at peak condition.
Interviewer: Okay.
But we had guys from you know and they’re fat, and others out of condition you know, theythey never got off the sidewalk you know they come from New York City all over the country
�you know. But I- I had no problem at all, in fact basically what they do they try to com- have you
compete in other words I was in the Third Platoon of the company and they do that by what your
name is, in other words First Platoon is everything from A to probably D or E and then the
Second Company then, but I was a R, so I was in the Third. Well, they- they try to get you to
compete in other words which was the best, what's the best platoon. And so, it's always “I'm the
best platoon,” or “this is the best platoon.” So, it's always that competition and I could run ‘em in
the ground, I could run them in the ground. I had no problem at all, that was it, I mean I- the
officers would drop out before I- I mean I- I just enjoyed that, just out doing them, I had no
problem.
(13:55)
Interviewer: Okay what about with the discipline part were you…?
No problem there either but they weeded out the gold bricks and the screw-ups real quick, that
didn't take ‘em very long. And if you was a screw-up you was on train duty and- and that kind of
stuff. And they, you- you was brushed aside they- they want no part of you.
Interviewer: Okay.
But if you were just a gold brick, they took care of that too. They put you out there in the front
after hours, digging a hole up to your ears, you know. And- and- and it would be in way after
dark you're still digging you know.
Interviewer: Would they do things where it if one person screwed up, they punished the
whole unit or?
Sometimes.
(14:45)
Interviewer: Okay.
�Particularly on inspection, you always had a Saturday morning inspection and if you screwed up
or somebody did in the barracks you wouldn't get a weekend pass. So, they, there was a bunch of
self-discipline done, it wasn't all about the officers.
Interviewer: Right.
… and everything. But we had good officers and we had some we called shoe salesmen and I
would say there was probably about fifty/fifty.
Interviewer: Okay now how long did you stay at- at Camp Sibert.
Well, your ten weeks.
Interviewer: Yeah, okay just ten weeks.
But I told you that I had this puncture wound and they sent me a dispensary, they bandaged it up
and so forth and they give me a tetanus shot, I was allergic to tetanus I didn't know it.
(15:42)
Interviewer: At least to the shot yeah.
I ended up in the hospital, I- I couldn't lift my arms the next morning and it- it was terrible pain
and all they did was give me morphine and the doctors they paraded every doctor they had in the
place by me and they- they couldn't come up with what the answer was. Finally, one of them
worked it out and they gave me an antibiotic and I popped right out of it and I was back in the
ranks real quick but I missed a whole week.
Interviewer: Right, now you mentioned the prospect of getting weekend passes, I mean if
you got off base on a weekend what could you do?
Well at this Camp Sibert not much. I don't even remember that there was a town or if it was it
wasn't much because I don't remember ever going to the- to town or anything.
Interviewer: Right okay.
�But you could get off base I would say that, but I don't remember anything about ever getting off
base to a town or something.
(16:47)
Interviewer: Alright so to go back then to your main story. So, you're- you have the tetanus
shot reaction, you get over that, you rejoin your unit, and then what happens to you then
when the training ends, now what?
Well when the training ends, why they're all shipped out. Basically, the outfit goes to a- a- a
division or some unit where they get actually more training.
Interviewer: Right.
And it’s a different kind depending where you're shipped, I was told that the most of ‘em were
shift and ended up in Italy, but in my case, I was segregated out and I was the only one and I just
thought it was because I had missed a week of training and in the- in the hospital but that wasn't
the case at all. They gave me my orders and a bus ticket to Auburn College, and they put me on a
bus and I ended up at Auburn and I didn't know what was going on, I- I just followed orders to
go to Auburn until I- I got in. When I got to Auburn, why I was there for maybe ten days or so.
They kept trickling in guys from all over and when it got up to about maybe 15/ 20 guys they
shipped us to Nashville, to Vanderbilt University and then I come to the realization that I was in
ASTP.
(18:23)
Interviewer: Okay and what was that?
That was Army Specialized Training Program, a very controversial outfit I guess you'd call it. I
guess a lot of men at Pentagon agreed that it was good, and others didn't think it was good, it was
a loss of a lot of manpower that they needed.
�Interviewer: Right, now what was the purpose of the program?
Well, I only found this out by talking to a friend that was in a ASTP at the Tanglewood Senior
Center where I met, he was in an ASTP too, he had a whole book on it and his situation was
entirely different. He had to apply for it and take a- a intelligence- or a IQ test and all kinds of
things but he finally was accepted, but me I- I just, I don't know.
Interviewer: But what was the specialized training for? Where were- what were they gonna
send you to?
This is what the book written, and this is what I was a told is it was a prelude to Officers
Candidate School. In other words, you would go and if you could cut the mustard and- and get
everything, then you went to Officers Candidate School.
Interviewer: Okay.
And then yeah, the way they were doing it now I guess if you- you have some political friend or
your dad was the garbage collectors or maybe the city mayor of some town you they was in, you
go to Officers Candidate School but this is a different situation they was gonna take the cream
of- of the crop so to speak it.
(20:06)
Interviewer: But wasn't a lot of training for engineers specifically?
Yes engineering.
Interviewer: Right.
Our course was this and it was not my bag at all, I’m- I'm a businessperson. We had calculus,
chemistry, American history, English and physical conditioning.
Interviewer: Right, so a lot of its regular college courses.
�Definitely, they were taught by college professors and so forth. And if you couldn't cut the
mustard by then they booted you out real quick and I had a rough go of it, but I had a good
friend, his name was Whitey Seem [name unclear]. Smart dude, smart he was really what, he was
my tutor, and he- he was my- my godsend I guess you could say that helped me a lot. The
calculus was way, way over my head but I managed to stay in there and not until it was
dissolved, and we- we had probably about a year at- at Vanderbilt and it was good time, it was
good, and we marched to class and we had to stand reveille, and- and- and night, bed check, and
all that, it was, and we had a, I was an A- A company and there was another one was B company
and we had officers that run the show, first lieutenant was- was the head of the outfit that I was
in. Well anyway when it was dissolved, and it was very quick, it was just shhhs like this, you
know and it- it was like maybe in the middle of the week you know and all of a sudden, they
said, “you don't go to class today we're gonna do this,” and you know we didn't know enough,
they don't tell you nothing, you know.
(22:08)
Interviewer: Okay before we go any further with that, let's talk a little bit more of you
spending a better part of a year there. Did you have to spend all of your time sort of
studying? Or in your rooms or?
Well…
Interviewer: Doing things officially? Or did you get time off?
We- we have pretty much the weekends off. We had inspection and we passed inspection and
then we would get Saturday afternoon and Sunday off. And we could do pretty much what we
wanted to do, but if you could pretty much, if you was up in your studies and stuff but you
sometimes you’d spend your time studying and then you could go to the library and so forth and
�everything. But we had dances at the gym on Saturday night sometimes and they’d truck in, bus
in girls and they had a lot of Vanderbilt girls too and, but we had a good situation in that we got
girls from PBot- Peabody lady’s- woman's college. It was very close by; you could see it from
the campus of the Vanderbilt. And then there was one other one that was called Ward- WardBelmont Finishing School, woooo [laughter] those gals were… when they come to the dance,
they have about three chaperones. They really had ‘em on a short leash but you could get around
‘em and once you found out their name why you was in, you know you because they was only
about probably about maybe six/ eight blocks down the street you could go on Saturday andand- and you could go on and if you know who to ask for and you could- you could make a date
and if you did, you could make a date and they got out on Saturday afternoon too. And but that
was not too good, and they came with white gloves to their elbows, a hat, and a- a purse, and silk
stockings, and a real fancy dress you know and oh Christ, that was… well it was about probably
six/ eight blocks to the bus stop and there was a place where there was a watering hole for the
drinkers in the- in the group. It was called Patroni, and I had a date with one of them and I
arranged it prior you know, and I told her I’ll meet you on, when you- when you go to the bus
stop. And as soon as she sees you know, off comes the hat and off comes the gloves you know,
and off comes the socks you know, the silk stockings you know, and the purse and then we
would leave that stuff in the back room at this Patroni’s beer joint, tavern it was nice, and they
would let you put ‘em in their back room their stuff. And then we- I didn't have a lot of money
you know.
(25:23)
Interviewer: Yeah.
�A couple of bucks, but the town was crawling with G.I.s, they came in from being on bivouac
out in- in the outer part of Tennessee and the town would be crawling but they also on Saturday
had the Grand Ole Opry and that was a big deal too. And they had this guy his name was… what
was his name? He was a well-known country- country guy his name was… what the hell was
it… but his car was all designed up real fancy and if he was waiting at the bus stop you always
stop and piggy up, his name was what the hell was it?
Interviewer: Doesn’t make a, yeah.
Well, it's not important but he was a real nice guy.
(26:16)
Interviewer: Now when you were there, and you go into town and Nashville and that kind
of thing did you notice that it was a segregated society that the blacks were treated
differently from the whites or did that not even occur to you there?
We never saw any blacks.
Interviewer: Okay.
No, there wasn't a black in- in the ASTP.
Interviewer: Yeah, but I meant by, in- on the civilian population though when you're going
off base into town, that kind of thing.
(26:39)
No, no, on Saturday it was a big deal for the Grand Ole Opry and these people from the out areas
would come to town in an open truck like a big stake rack truck and they’d be all standing up in
the back of it you know and there’d be car loads of them. And then they would line up for to get
in for the doings at- at night and they would picnic on the sidewalk and they have spread out a- a
tablecloth and they always had a basket full of food, everything. And that was the way every
�Saturday was that way, so several blocks were just covered by people waiting to get into the
Grand Ole Opry, I never went but I- I looked inside to see what it looked like, and they had great
big round things like that that held the balcony up, you know. You ever got behind one of those
you’re never gonna see anything, it was an old, old building and everything, but it was the capital
of Tennessee.
(27:45)
Interviewer: Right.
So we'd go around the capitol building, and- and you couldn't get into this theater if you was
lucky you- you might get in and we’d go to the show or something but it was buy an ice-cream
cone or something you know and it was mostly that kind of a thing, it was no big deal.
Interviewer: Alright.
I shouldn't tell you this but the- the gals that were the gals from that were going to Vanderbilt
they were- they were had sorority houses all around and they always were asking us to buy
‘em… it was Coke and what- what do they put in a Coke? Rum.
Interviewer: Rum, yeah.
Yeah, and we could buy it but they- they- they couldn't and so they’d always ask, we'd have to
buy them rum, they could- they had a Coke machine in their place you know, and they had a lady
that run the show you know. But then they could, I’m drinking a Coke you know they spiked it
with its rum.
(29:00)
Interviewer: Right.
�And so they always would be after us to buy them- buy them a… so that's how we got
acquainted on it and they’d drop a line down from the window up, stick it for me, tie the bag on
it and, but…
Interviewer: Okay so not a- not a bad way on spend a better part…
I had a nice lady or girlfriend she was- she was a- a southern gal, real southern she was from
Mississippi, Sanford, Mississippi. Very nice gal and we got along real, real well in fact one,
every time it got at Christmastime they always shut down the school and everything and we went
on furlough and she had invited me down to meet her- her dad, her father he owned Sanford.
(29:51)
Interviewer: Okay.
The town was named after, Sanford, Mississippi. She wanted me to come down and meet him, I
said no, a Yankee down in that kind of a..shoot, I’d get shot. And no, no and so I didn't go but I
was invited, and she was a nice gal. She used to sneak out, we had a, the room that I was in had
the fire escape, we were on the third floor on the end of the deal and there was four of us in the
room. And but it had one window that accessed the fire escape and after bed check in, Christ you
couldn't get no sleep the damn activity going in and out, this way down. Well, I used it a few
times myself and what we would do is go over and get ‘em and they’d call out the window andand we’d go down to the stadium, the football stadium and we’d crawl up in a football stadium
and we- we’d sit up there, and neck and you know talk you know but is real nice.
Interviewer: Yeah.
And it was- it was not all, you know bad, bad you know.
Interviewer: True.
Army stuff, you know.
�Interviewer: Yeah, okay so now so let’s see you get sort of late in 1944 now or in the fall
some time that you shut down the program?
Yeah well, a bunch of us and this was quite a group we’re shipped to the 106th Infantry Division
in Terre Haute, Indiana.
Interviewer: Okay.
(31:28)
Up at the Camp Terre Haute, Indiana in Terre Haute, Indiana, Camp- Camp Atterbury.
Interviewer: Okay.
Camp Atterbury and I was put in a rifle platoon, 422nd Regiment in this 106th division. I didn't
last a week and all the guys that came from ASTP they jerked us all out, put us on KP and I spent
all the rest of the time I was at Camp Atterbury or Atterbury and KP. And that must have been
for three/ four weeks because I got one weekend pass and I got in to go to Indianapolis. I can
remember that, but after a while they jerked everybody out of the K- that was on KP that was a
ASTP or, and they ship us to Camp Crowder, Missouri that was in Joplin. Well, we didn't do
nothing there, we, they just put us in a barracks, it was a barracks two-story job had inside
plumbing and everything, we didn't have like it was in basic training and it was at one of the big
mess halls where you went through the- the chow line with a tray. And we didn't do nothing, we
just played baseball or whatever we could do you know and caroused around the camp you
know. And we went down met the wax down in the wax area and we didn't do anything, and it
was, that went on for, oh God it must have been almost a month. But they, all the time there was
more coming in all the time. And once they got everybody they wanted I guess they put us all on
a train and they shipped us down to Camp Rucker, Alabama and we all went into this 1153rd
Engineering, Combat Engineer Group and they’d split us all up, some went to the Treadway
�Bridge Company, someone to Line Company some went to Light Equipment Companies, I was
put into the headquarters company and I was supposed to be a driver messenger that was my
designation and I drove for a captain and he was the S-4 in the staff officers. These were, it was
run by a full colonel and he didn't like me. He, I think he knew that I was an ASTP guy and hehe figured I was a goof-off that you know I had hats off going for quite a while, but how he just
picked me out I don't know, but he did but I'll tell you a little bit more later. And he picked on
me I thought but it was alright, but I drove, they gave me an old beat-up staff car it was a halfton staff car, four-wheel drive and everything but they didn't teach or anything, you know there it
is. I- I said, “where- where do you check the oil?” “Lift the hood up,” you know so they didn’t
tell you nothing yeah. So, you just- you just drove it you know and the only thing they ever told
you was when- when we're on the highway, when we're going someplace don't go like this you
know, I mean speed up and slow down, speed up. Steady speed keep it- keep it closed up and
that was the only thing they ever told us but in order to be a- a good driver you had to be able to
read maps, you had to be, in other word to be good, in other words the officer could tell you, you
know we want to go someplace and they- they- they do the map reading and they tell you, you
know this is where you would want to go. But if you're a good one you do that and you tell them
where you’re gonna go and so that's what I was, I was a driver and that was only because when I
work for this dairy when I was shoveling ice cream, by moving up, I got to be a what they call a
special delivery driver with a truck that I went around when they had special deliveries to the
stores and places and I got 20 cents an hour instead of shoveling ice cream right I drove special
delivery, well that was in my resume for…
(36:16)
Interviewer: Okay.
�…the deal when I, in that I had drove this- this truck. And I used to drive my dad's milk truck too
but only when he may be down the block it was a bit and I’d drive up to him you know. So, I had
driven before and… now where the hell are we?
Interviewer: Well, how did you- you mentioned that the colonel didn't like you, how did
you, did you get along with the captain?
Oh yeah, oh yeah, the captain was great. He was a, I’ll tell you about him, his name was Captain
Jack his name was Jack Saunders he was a big land or a big contractor from Oklahoma I mean
he- he was big-time I mean we got to know each other real, I was like a son to him really I was.
And he was not militarily I know he- he- he- he’d waved to you, you know but only time he ever
showed any military things was when he had to, and so he was Captain Jack and he was- he was
really, really great but we had another one that was great too, but he came later out of the TD's,
he was a tank destroy outfit, but they destroyed, they abandoned that, they didn't get to have
anything tank destroyers, and he was a First Lieutenant, and he was a Mexican descent, and his
name was Hernandez and we called him Pancho, his name was Walter Hernandez. Burley guy
you wouldn't want to tangle with him at all and he- he was always looking for a fight. Well
anyway he was a nice guy too, well anyway this Captain- Captain Jack he was real nice guy and,
but this colonel had it in for me. I was in the headquarters company one just to show you how
picayune he was, I was sitting on a stool and he walked in and he saw my socks because my- my
pants must had been up a little bit because I was sitting on the stool. He saw my socks he came
over and he says, “you're out of uniform, you're them socks they don’t go with this uniform,
you’re supposed to…. blahblahblah.” You know about- about my socks, you know what the hell
is this about socks, but apparently I had the wrong kind of socks on and he chewed me out about
my- ‘bout the socks and they had to go get my right socks on. Well the next time he chewed me
�out was the, it was on a Saturday and he was reviewing the troops on the parade grounds and as
they passed the reviewing stand I always wore my helmet like kind of a cocked, it wasn't down, I
had it like this you know, he noticed that out of the whole damn outfit you know and he puts me,
so he picks me out and he gets back at- at when he can see me, and he says, “you wear your
helmet…” “Yes sir, yes sir,” you know but how the hell he picked me out of all those guys. But
I’ll tell you when I got back at him but that's down the road.
(39:38)
Interviewer: Okay.
But anyway, this Captain Jack was real good and I have to tell you this because one day we, he
wanted me to go to the Officers’ Quarters where they were housed and his wife and his little girl,
the daughter was there to visit him so I met his wife and his little girl. And his wife came over to
see me on a- on a QT she says, “I want you to take good care of Jack. I want you to see that you
take good and that he gets back to me.” Here I have a buck private you know, “I'll do my best
ma’am, I’ll- I’ll see that I do everything I can to get him back to you,” and I promised her that
you know you didn't make it. So, you know.
Interviewer: Yeah.
It's a sad but that's you know I made the promise, but I couldn't keep it.
Interviewer: Okay.
(40:38)
Because I had no control, you know I didn't know what the hell, you know where they were
sending. Well anyway that was a very sad situation but to make a long story short we get a lot of
training particularly that I was in, we'd go to different, this one river and I forget the name of it,
�Tallahassee or it was a pretty good-sized river, and they did a lot of bridge work. Where they
would bridge across this Tallahassee River.
Interviewer: Or the Chatta…
And they would prepare the approaches you know and- and do that whole thing for to- to cross
and that's what the training was to build those treadway bridges and then they built, the line
companies built Bailey bridges and- and they did mine dissection and all that kind of stuff and
then once in a while when they, we would be on bivouac in the field and that was once in a
while, the captain did let me get on a bulldozer or a- or a road grater or whatever you know, and
I'd try my hand at it you know, and it was fun you know but I was just screwing around but you
know he’d just tell you, “why don’t you let him try,” you know and so it- it was, I got into it, but
I- I took care of routine [unclear]real good you know I mean when we were out bivouac and
everything I've seen that he got a place to sleep and- and that he got his, he had a- a mattress kind
of a thing that he had but we didn't have. But I- I looked after him and when the, we- we had the,
along with marches and we had, we went to the rifle range and everything but the same old crap,
you know it was nothing that was modern. And we ended up in the training in that picture that I
showed you, that was just before we went to… where did I- oh yeah. That was just before we
shipped out to Fort Dix in New Jersey and that was, we waited there and we was there probably
for two weeks maybe waiting for a ship.
(43:06)
Interviewer: Okay and then when did you ship out, when do you leave the States?
The date?
Interviewer: Yeah roughly?
�That was on that… probably that deal there, that- that little what do you call it? But it was in- it
was in the we- we ended Europe in September so we must have looked, it took us, I don’t
remember whether it was nine days or thirteen that it took us to go across.
Interviewer: Alright I think the discharge papers said you got to Europe in October but
that’s…
No, it was in September, I think.
Interviewer: Okay you might have left September.
September and we landed in Liverpool.
Interviewer: Well what- what kind of ship were you?
I don't know, well it was a troop ship.
Interviewer: Okay.
(43:51)
Let me tell you this, the day we shipped out of Fort Dix, they put us on a bus and we- we went to
New York and we went down in the docks and we went in this warehouse on the docks, it was a
big warehouse and the buses drove in and everything and we unloaded in this warehouse and
they had a big opening and we walked across the docks and there was another big opening and
that other big opening was the ship we didn't get to see what it was, look like, or anything. It was
just a big black hole you know.
Interviewer: Yeah.
That- that we walked across in and when we got in there all it was was a bunch of iron pipes
going curve the ceiling with a canvas between ‘em and they went up about maybe- maybe ten or
twelve of these canvas things that we use for a bed. And it was just solid like that, you know very
narrow space in between and that's where- where you were and there was very little room for you
�to do anything and the lighting was very, very poor you couldn't read or anything. And so you
pretty much was confined to just that canvas bunk that they have, but they had showers but you
had to use, it was salt water so you tried it but then y'all end up with all salt you know all over
you so that was out, but you did use them- use it to brush your teeth you know. And so, I always
selected a bunk that was up at the top because otherwise you had everybody climbing up on- on
your bunk, going up to the higher, the bunks. But it was the best thing about it was KP, oh yeah
that was the best. And we got two meals a day and your- your mealtime was like, you never
knew whether it was day or night or what it was, but anytime eight came around if that was your
time, that was your meal time, in other words whether it was 8:00 at night or whether it was 8:00
in the morning, that- that was it and so then you got out of the- the hole which is, that's where
you work, down in the hole of the ship and you went to the- the mess hall or the place they had
and you had up a tin tray or a metal tray and you went through the chow line and then you stood
up you- you didn't sit down. They had a- a little place about maybe a foot wide that you could set
your tray on, it was about waist high and then you just had enough to squeeze in and stand andand you had about fifteen/ twenty minutes to eat and then they kick you out but that was it. So,
the only time you got out of the- the hole down there was when you got on KP and they- they
used a lot of KPs because it was a twenty-four hour deal, and so if you got on KP that was good
because you got a chance to go out on deck and they had these hoppers that was on the rail of the
ship, the great big hoppers where you dumped the garbage and all the trash and anything and
then at night when they were, they would dump the trash at night. And so, but between the
entrance of the mess hall there that you could walk across the deck to this, these hoppers where
you dump the garbage. You get a chance you could look around a little bit you know, and you
could see, you know the other ships and…
�(48:04)
Interviewer: So, you were sailing in a convey?
Yeah, there was, it a big convoy, and you could see the destroyers rolling around you know,
they're jerking, dirting around and but you'd- you dilly-dally I'll tell you, you, it took you forever
to dump that garbage and then you got a breath of fresh air.
Interviewer: Yeah.
You know and it was good and so that was- that was really precious the- the fact that you could
get out, but you never got a chance to look up and see what the ship looked like or anything, youyou didn't know. And all you'd seen was just that little bit of that you’ve been between the mess
hall door and- and the garbage.
Interviewer: Now was the weather good when you went across?
Yeah, it was good.
Interviewer: Okay so people were not, not a lot of people were getting sick or?
Well we didn't know whether it was raining or you know what the deal was but when we got to
Liverpool it was nice.
(48:54)
Interviewer: Okay.
And we- we got off at Liverpool and the British I guess you'd call it Red Cross, or something
met us and they- they had cookies for us and of course they have tea but- but they put us on a- on
a train right away, a British train. You know how they work, you know they had the doors on the
side.
Interviewer: Right, compartments yeah.
�Compartments and deal and we shipped down to the southernmost part of England that was
down to Holborne, it was a, they call it a holiday city or town where they would spend vacations
and it was down on the- on the coast the…
Interviewer: Brighton or someplace like that?
It was called Torquay.
Interviewer: Okay.
(49:52)
Torquay and we ended up on, it was up on a hill kind of and it was a, probably a kind of an estate
thing, big house and a courtyard and a fence around it and we had these corrugated Quonset huts,
and the Officers and everything they lived in the big house and we ate in the big house, they had
the mess hall was in the big house. So, all there was was a, they had a latrine which was a
Quonset hut and then they had about four or five of these metal Quonset huts and we…
Interviewer: Now was it just your company there or was the whole group there?
Just- just the company.
Interviewer: Okay.
Just the headquarters company and then they- they began to outfit us, we got new trucks, I got a
new staff car, it was a quarter- three quarter ton, nice, new, brand new. And they gave us M1
carbines, steel helmets, and- and winter clothes and- and everything, we… the outfit… but I
didn't spend much time in Torquay.
Interviewer: Right.
I was gone ninety percent of the time. I, this captain that I was working with, he worked out of
London and he worked on Oxford Street, it used to be the… it was a department store.
(51:23)
�Interviewer: Yeah, tailors and things on Oxford Street or big stores.
It was a white building, what the hell was the name of it… see my memory is not good but…
Sparks and Marks.
Interviewer: Okay.
I think was the name of it and it was on the second floor. We went back there in- in nineteen fifthe wife and I went back on the 50th anniversary of the- of the war. And we- and when I showed
her where I used to work, and it was on the second, but it was then it was the pet department
[laughter], yeah. Well anyway I was there in London a lot and I stayed in a place, they- they had
what they called.
(telephone interruption)
They had this for transients and it was run by the Red Cross and I was there so much I had a
room that was there, it was- it was on Connaught Square it was like an older apartment house or
something. And but if you were a transit that's where you, you stayed and you ate and
everything. So that’s what I did, but this was a buzz bomb days and it, complete blackout you
know so at night you…
(telephone interruption) Interviewer: You could just answer it I suppose.
No, I'm gonna just leave it down.
Interviewer: Okay.
(53:03)
The- the buzz bombs were very low flying, and they were just for harassment but the populace,
they would, most of them would spend the nights in the underground in where the underground
trains were. I never did but I just took my- you know I- I stayed up, but you couldn’t go out at
night because you get lost, it was that dark. I mean, when you went in any place, they had a door
�you go in but then they had a curtained off little anteroom like, so then you go into there where
this, little anteroom is, and you close the door and everything so there was- there was no light
that it was exposed to it. So night was out, so you only could navigate the place in the daylight,
but we were right there across from this Connaught Square it was Hyde Park it was right across
the street. And they had the anti-aircraft guns and stuff there, in there and they had a lot of
women on their batteries, gun crews and I used to go across the street and talk to the gals on the
gun- on the gun crews, they were nice, and but I got to know London pretty, pretty well because
I spent a lot of time there. Well, what we did and then I'll get on to the, was they don't tell me
this but I overhear the conversations and there's no partition between the driver and the- and the
Officers, what the deal was- was it was a preparation for the bridging of the Rhine River and this
was- this was all in the making up, so we would go to a- a Naval base, you know and I would
think what the heck are we doing in this Naval base for, you know. Well, they’re there for, to
make arrangements for the LCMs and- and the people are gonna man them and- and get them up
to where they were supposed to get ‘em in Germany on the Albert Canal. Then we would go to
the air- to an air base and we’d be there several times you know, well that's to arrange for the air
drop and the barge- or the…
Interviewer: Barrage balloons?
Yeah, the barrage balloons and all that kind of stuff you know but it- it comes out and you know
pretty soon you can put it together you know, what's going on. Then some days we would go to
line companies you know that were the ones that were gonna put in the bridges and stuff but
went all over. So, I was- I was always and sometimes we’d go several times to the same place,
but it was- it was interesting and of course London you know it's- it’s fog. And we were there
when we- just like dropping a white sheet over the windshield you know, and it didn't make no
�difference whether it was foggy or wind and then of course you're driving on the wrong side of
the road. And if you was on an American base you- you drove on the right side and if you was on
the English road you drove on the left side so sometimes I’d screw up and get on the wrong side
of the road but it was- it was that kind of a deal. And once in a while we had- we would get a,
one of those, what do they call them? The ones that flew real high and silent what was them? V2s.
Interviewer: V-2s, yes.
(56:56)
And they- they would come down woo, I mean that really, it picked that staff car right off the lotground brought it like that. And silent you didn't hear it coming or anything you know, vroom,
that was the biggest thing, I mean I was scared to death of those. But the buzz bombs you just
hope that they kept going because when they ran out of fuel, phew down they became, you just
hope that they kept on going. The gun crews never shot at them or anything they just hope the
same thing, you know they kept on going. And so that was, I've spent a lot of time in London, so.
Interviewer: But how long did you spend in England then?
Then we shipped out let's see, it was right after Christmas and it was a very hurry it up
proposition, all of a sudden you know we're shipping out. And Southampton was just a stone’s
throw from where we were. And we crossed the channel at night in an LST and half of the cargo
was tanks, we- they were all chained down and then the other half was our outfit, and I was the
second vehicle on that when you unload, when the doors went down, I was the second vehicle.
And they're very spartan, you don't have nothing, no place to sleep or anything you know so you
make the best you can. And they had a few canvas cots if you was lucky enough to get one but it
was such a rough crossing, we had a real bad crossing that if you did get one of those canvas cot,
�it was slide when it went… then it slide back, and then it’d tip over you know so you- you give
up and you- you just sleep wherever you could find, underneath a vehicle or wherever you know.
Well some of the tanks broke loose from the chains that were in the hold and they were bouncing
around down there and everything but we- we landed in Le Havre early in the morning on, it was
getting daybreak and I was the second vehicle off the- off the LST. When you say you know that
they land on the beach, no that ain't the case at all. They open the doors, and they bring the door
down to the level of the water so they can be five feet of water at the end of it and so you don't
go off the things like slow like dip- dip down in the water, you try to fly off and float to the
ground or the beach. So, I was the second one and the captain told me, he says, “well, put it in
four-wheel drive,” and he says, “go as fast as you can in the…” I only had one car length to get
to where I was gonna go. So, I- I give it all it had you know, and we flew off the damn end of the
thing and we- we made it. Well as soon as I hit the beach, there was another guy, he was a S3's
driver his name was Don Behr, we were told to go to a SHAPE in Paris, that's the Supreme
Allied Forces Headquarters.
Interviewer: Right.
(1:00:35)
That was in- in Paris, that's where Eisenhower was and all the big shots. So, we took off right
away for Paris and the rest of them they hadn't even got off the- off the ship yet and we left- left
for Paris the two of us. And it took us all day to get there, we didn't get there until it was getting
dark, it was dark when we got there.
Interviewer: What- what made it so slow, just bad roads or?
It’s- it’s you know it’s like, it's not no expressway or anything.
Interviewer: Yeah.
�You know and then we had to follow the, you know the Paris signs you know, and it was a long
ways and then we got there, we had to find a MP or somebody to tell us where the hell this
headquarters was and then we- we found it and the place was closed, but they had a guard there
you know. So, we told him what we was there for and we wanted to see somebody, he took us in
and he went and back got the officer of the day and he came out and we went over to his desk
and who the hell do you think it was? It was James Roosevelt? It was- it was the Roosevelt; it
was the president's son, Jimmy. James Roosevelt had his name plate on his desk and…
Interviewer: We're gonna- we’re gonna pause right here because this tape is about up. So,
you get a break for a moment.
(1:02:03)
Interviewer: Okay so we had gotten you into Paris at the very end of 1944, you get to the
Allied Headquarters and you're introduced to one James Roosevelt.
He gave us our orders that I was sent there to get for where we was supposed to go, the outfit.
Well, it was- it was dark then, it was night, and it was past supper time, and we hadn’t had
anything to eat other than K-rations and so we had a big decision to make, should we ask this
guard where we could get some, get dinner, some hot meal here these- these- these MPs and stuff
they must eat someplace. But we discussed it and we thought no that's not fair, that the guys back
out at, they’re eating K-rations so we, this wouldn't be fair, and what we should get back there as
soon as we can. So, we got back to the beach in Le Havre in the morning and there was nothing,
they all gone- they were all gone and so we just took the road that led off the beach and- and we
bumped into them down- down the road a ways and they were waiting for us and they didn't
move until we- we gave them the orders. And then we moved that day up into Luxembourg and
we spent the night in a town in Luxembourg. Well, and of course in the town we- we caroused
�around a little bit, well it was pretty close where we was, they had one of these spas where they
had hot water that come out of the ground or something whatever you know. And so, with a few
cigarettes we- we had a hot bath in this spa and big copper tubs and then they didn't have running
water the ladies they bring in buckets and dump it in it, but they’d scrub your back if you ask
them, you know. So, we got a- a good- good, nice bath area in- in Luxembourg.
(1:04:16)
Interviewer: Okay now the Battle of the Bulge had been going on in the previous couple of
weeks.
Yup, that's right, well that's where we were headed.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Well then as we move north, we moved into Belgium and as we further was, further we got north
it worse the weather got you know. And as we got closer to the front, we only moved at night,
well the snow got real bad and we was wallowing in the snow. And even the big trucks because
there's no snowplows or anything, they was plowing snow up to the, crap to the damn windshield
you know and they couldn't even see, so they had to stop and- and so it got to where we had to
order them to put their chains on. And we had chains and they put chains on, even on four-wheel
drive. And there was some of them were you know six bys, they had big duals in the back, theythey were big trucks. Well anyway I was usually what they called on advanced- advanced… well
I- I always went ahead.
(1:05:29)
Interviewer: Right.
Advanced out look or advanced patrol or whatever.
Interviewer: Yeah.
�Advanced, well anyway it was a- an officer, and a guy run shotgun, and- and a driver and so we
always went ahead of the- of the convoy and all the troops, everything to see that everything, the
road is- is the road you're supposed to be on and that it's passable and there's no gunfire, no, you
know you have no problem, everything. So, we was always on an advanced patrol.
Interviewer: Yeah.
And I usually was- was on it most of the time and so I was pretty much in the know where we
were going and everything because they had to tell me, tell you, you know. And then the guys
would always ask you, you know “where are we going, where are we going, or,” you know, and
they always got scuttlebutt you know. I told them “you're going to- you're going to the above.”
Well, that's where we ended up, we ended up in Malmedy that's where the order said that we was
to report. Well, Malmedy was all shot up and banged, and all, it was just a bunch of rubble and
the snow was- was really bad and the weather was terrible, was freezing and you know what the
main thing is how do we survive, you know I mean we, that's the main thing, we weren’t worried
about the Germans or anything we was worried about how we was gonna survive. So, everybody
you know, crawls around and trying to find a place where they can get out of the weather and
they dig around in the rubble trying to find a- a cellar or someplace where they could, you know
get in and crawl in. So everybody was on your own, you know and I found this and several, a lot
of the guys, it was kind of, it must have been a- a gymnasium or something, it wasn't a theatre
because there was no theater seats in it and it was pretty big room but the roof was all blown off
in the middle and there was snow in the middle of it but all around the edge was a- a bare space
of about six or eight feet and that- that was all we needed was to get out of the snow, so all the
guys would bunk down or try to sleep around the edge of that- that building. And so that's where
I- I spent my time, most of it in when I was in Malmedy in that there, but we- we stood guard
�duty at night and everything and- and then we operated during the daytime and our- our area of
responsibility was from Malmedy to Saint Vith, and you probably heard of the Malmedy
Massacre…
Interviewer: Yes.
(1:08:25)
Haven't you? Well, that was what they called tri corners, three worlds came together there in this
field and I would drive by it maybe three or four times a day sometimes, you know. And all I
would see then was because there was so much snow was the mounds, every place where there
was a body there was a mound and the thing it got out of hand, pretty soon it was that there was
300 guys that got shot there. Then it was 350 and all the scuttlebutt you know that went around
amongst the troops you know, they never seen it, but it was scuttlebutt that passed along. So,
everybody said I'm not gonna be taken prisoner oh no, no you know and things kind of stiffened
you know. Well actually the main what- what the thing was is we were put it into what they call,
we were infantry, in other words we weren't combat engineers, we were infantry and that’s what
we were. Well, I- I just did what I was supposed to do, you know. The thing that bothered me in
the most was these infiltrators, these Germans that were in un- American uniforms that was a
real mess, that was bad.
Interviewer: Well, they have used those at the start of the Bulge, but that would have been
several weeks before you got there. Were there any around still?
(1:09:59)
They was there, oh yes anybody you encountered, it was, you had your finger on the trigger and
it was just, they had a password you know and a counter sign and all that but it never got around,
you know maybe the counter sign and the password was three days old you know by the time
�you got it. So, it was a matter of who's Betty Grable? Where you from? “I'm from Michigan.”
Who's- who’s- who’s- who’s the ball team that Michigan, or the National League team for
Michigan? “Detroit Tigers,” you know and everything, but they knew more about the United
States than you did, you know. But they'd all lived in the United States you know, and they knew
all that and so it was early touch-and-go it wasn't good at all and they screwed up all of the signs
that told you know what road you're on.
Interviewer: Did you actually encounter any of that specifically or did you just hear about
it?
(1:11:08)
What?
Interviewer: The Germans- these Germans doing all this stuff?
Oh no, no, no they was, we’d encounter them all the time, yeah. That’s why… you know you
never knew; you know that you maybe just let a bunch of, half a dozen Germans just walk by
you you know. They had all the answers you know and everything and. But it was- it was very,
you know I mean stressful, I mean nobody trusted anybody.
Interviewer: Yeah.
And they was probably eating your chow you know in the same- same place. That's the way it
was, but…
(1:11:46)
Interviewer: Now did you see…
The first time I got to the front this is where the action was, was in St. Vith and we drove up to
St. Vis and the Officers, they went into a house or something there but there was a GI walking
behind a- a, it was a stone wall. He walking back and forth, he tried to keep warm you know, and
�I was, I see him down, walking down and I thought well somebody will want to talk to him you
know. So, I went down to talk to him, he gave me an education, I- that was the best information I
got, I walked down there, and he says, “don't you know that when you get out of a staff car like
that that you’re prime bait for some sniper to pick you off?” And he says, “that coat you’re
wearing too,” he says, “Christ they think you're an officer. Where did you get that coat?” And I
says, “my captain gave a couple bottles of scotch for a couple of those are, those have- that's a
severe weather coat, Navy coat.” “Holy Christ,” he says, “that's a nice coat,” he said, “but you
get rid of it,” he said, “they'll pick you off,” and he says, “you’ve never been here at the front
before.” And I said, “no” I said, “no we've only been here, got here a couple days ago.” And he
says, “well,” he says, “get rid of that coat,” and he says, “when- when, don't- when you get out of
that staff car,” he says, “stay out, behind it,” he said, “don’t- don't expose yourself.” And I- I
talked to him you know and I says, where abouts are the Germans? He said, “on the other side of
the wall, they're trying to keep warm too,” and I said, “that's why you're walking back in
position?” “Yeah,” he says, “I'm trying to keep warm,” he said, “I'm supposed to be on guard
duty here.” But he gave me all this good advice, you know, and so I remembered that, but the
coat I wasn't gonna part with. It had a nice big…and it was all fur lined inside you know and, but
I disguised it with the scarf and everything so but… he- he was a very, he’d been there long he
knew what the scoop was but I didn't know. But that was my conversation with the guy in- in St
Vith. But they were, the Germans were on the other side of the wall, you know they were trying
to keep warm too. Well, they say that Patton you know when he relieved Bastogne you know
that was the big deal, well it was big. But really what changed the whole situation as far as I was
concerned, what I thought the Sun came out. Good weather, sunshine you know the Air Force
was back in business and boy did they give ‘em hell. And they just, those tanks and everything
�you know they just bombed hell out of them and everything you know and then the Germans
turned and headed back to Germany. And but that was in my opinion it was the Air Force that
turned the tide.
Interviewer: Yeah.
It certainly wasn't because I was there that's for damn sure.
(1:15:23)
Interviewer: By the time you got there I mean they had already been stopped and were
being pushed back, I mean you couldn't have gotten to Malmedy or Saint Vith within the
first week or so of that fight.
No, no, no they- the Germans have been in Malmedy and…
Interviewer: Yes, and well beyond it, right.
Yeah, right and- and then they ousted them and they pushed them back. We was in Malmedy is
where the headquarters was.
Interviewer: Right, now you said that you were being at that point just kind of used as
infantry, now did you actually go into fight as infantry? Or did things change a little bit
and they put you back to being engineers?
No we just stayed as what as what we were, we just had, all I had was an M1…
Interviewer: Carbine.
(1:16:06)
Carbine and a few grenades that were under the seat of the vehicle that I had. That's all I had and
it's not very good with a take, I have no bazooka or anything but that was it. And fortunately, the
Sun came out and things got well in a hurry you know because in Patton took care of the
Bastogne deal. But Bastognewas quite a ways from Malmedy.
�Interviewer: Yeah, yeah.
That was not close at all, but we just operated between St. Vith and- and Malmedy that was our
operation earlier. And we, it wasn't just our headquarters company, it was the whole 11- 53rd.
Interviewer: Right.
All these other outfits.
Interviewer: Right.
You know they, on there but were they ended up I don't know the ended up you know. The
brass….
Interviewer: So about how long did you stay in that area?
Oh, I’d say a month or so, yeah.
Interviewer: Okay.
(1:17:06)
Yeah, and then when things, they pushed the Germans out because they were going back to
Germany.
Interviewer: Right.
And the Bulge still was- was over. We thought we were gonna go up into Hürtgen Forest that's
where the next battle was, was Hürtgen Forest. And so, when we packed up to move it wasn't
Hürtgen Forest at all, we went to Holland. They- they swung us north into Holland and we ended
up in a town called Sittard and it's right across from Maastricht but the Albert Canal it goes
between the two and we- we was housed at a school house in Sittard. We sit there for quite a
while and we wondered what the hell was going on and well we was waiting for the LCMs to
come up through the Albert Canal to Maastricht there, and- and that's what we were waiting for.
Well when they got there, then our outfit that they- they had tank retrievers that sucked these
�LCMs out of the Albert Canal on to these tank retrievers and there must have been fifteen/
twenty of these LCMs. And then they got ‘em out of the- out of the canal line up and then and
this was the captain, this Captain Hernandez and I- we had the job of getting him to the Rhine
River and we had to wait for a while because they had the Roer River to get across and so wewe had to wait until the line, or the battle line moved off to the Rhine but when they got up to the
Rhine, why then we- we followed along. But the towns were built right on the edge of the road,
so and the roads are very narrow, and these big heavy things was like moving a house. So, it was
very difficult, and we had a- a- a crew that had chainsaws and they had, we had some explosives
guys that blew up stuff and a couple of dozers and everything. And so, we would reconnoiter, a
route, and we’d go, maybe we’d detoured way off just so we wouldn't have to blow up a town or
whatever, village, but some places it was just a matter of well this is all we gotta, we're gonna
have to do, blow something up. So, they would take a side of this little village or something and
they’d charge it up, and they’d blow it all down, and then the dozers would go in and push it all
aside so we could get through. And trees and everything you know they would saw down with
chainsaw I mean, so it took us some doing to get up to the Rhine River but when we got there,
they all had them lined up and I drove right up to the- to the Rhine River, I, to see what it was
you know and I looked out and I holy Christ, they’re gonna get across this. I looked you know,
and the houses look like dollhouses on the other side, you know. And the Rhine Rivers is about
like from here to Mona Lake, well it's a- it’s a big river Christ they have big, big boats on that
damn thing. And I thought holy Christ this- this is not gonna be easy, this is gonna be big time
you know. Well while I was standing there dumb founded you know, bang a sniper took a shot at
me from across the river and it hit the bumper of my- my command car, it right in the bumper
about a foot away from me to the left of me and I thought holy Christ I forgot about what that
�guy told me you know. So, I got- I got the hell out of there, by but they was shooting from all the
way across the damn Rhine River. So I- I was lucky but that was the only time I ever shot at, but
then we, where I was, I- I don't know where the officers where but they set up a headquarters
company just out- out back away from the Rhine River maybe a half a mile or something where
there was some houses or something. And I was at a farmhouse that that I was staying in, and I
would go to where the headquarters company was what's with a mess hall where we- where we
get food, where we- we ate. I was walking from where I was at this farmhouse one morning,
going to breakfast and all I had was my mess kit in my hand and I was walking across this field I
saw the first jet I ever saw in my life, this German jet come shhhh right over me. And he was
photographing and checking the progress of the material and stuff that was being accumulated
for the crossing, but never the first jet I ever saw. And he just went right, all I had was my mess
kit and I waived it at him, but that was it, but I thought they was gonna cross the Rhine on my
birthday but actually it was the 24th of March. And that they actually made the, they moved.
(1:23:06)
Well they brought up what they called, have you heard, it's called a heavy pontoon bridge, they
have these scows and its wood planking and everything but- but it's obsolete. But they use the
scows for the troops to get across and the initial assault. Well, on the 24th, this was at night it all
started at about 1:00/ 2:00 o'clock in the morning that the barrage started and that artillery, all of
it, all along. And it was about a nine-mile front that this was all taking place. But you only see
just a little segment you know, well I- I was wanted to see everything that was going on you
know but it was at night and you know you didn't- you couldn't see much, you know. I- I went
over and I was standing by a 105 howitzer that was an artillery battery’s that was shelling the
other side. And so, I just watched them you know, it was operating so I got to talking to one of
�the guys I said, “let me take a shot at Hitler, will yah?” I said, “I never- I never had a shot at, I
only shot my damn 250- M1 yet.” So he let me pull a lanyard on- on one. While I was waiting
for morning, I thought I'd see what the hell's going on you know, couldn't see a damn thing. Only
thing I saw was the barrage balloons, I saw those were up. It was all smoke, white smoke,
everything. double smoke, you couldn't see squat you know. I thought I'd see them starting the
you know the bridge and the things moving in it, all under smoke, everything was smoke. And so
I didn't get to see the hell of a lot, you know. But I- I kept watching you know and sometimes the
wind would change a little bit and it’d blow a little bit, so you’d get a little bit of an opening you
know you'd see what's going on. And they were making the approaches in and they have got the
LCMs launched and the guys had got across. And what they did with those scows that off that
heavy pontoon bridge equipment, they had outboard motors on them, and they had what they call
chemical starters, so they all started at the same time. Nobody was doing the dang thing because
it wouldn't start. And they were all- all gone and they- they- they made the crossing and
everything and they had pushed far enough so that the 88s were not a problem. Which they
wouldn't do anything until they had that taken care of because they didn't want the bridge shelled
with 88s. And pretty much there was no air problem.
Interviewer: Right.
(1:26:15)
I don't know whether they had an airdrop or not because I didn't see it and that would have been
farther.
Interviewer: Yeah, yeah, they were paratroopers who landed on the other side in part.
There was a big, big campaign it was…
Oh yeah.
�Interviewer: A whole bunch of places like that…
It was a second largest amphibious action of the war in Europe, I mean it was next to Malmondyor Normandy.
Interviewer: Yeah.
And so, I didn't get to see a hell of a lot, but when daylight came I, it was all smoke. And I- I just
hung around you know and there would be times when the smoke, the wind would blow the
smoke away a little bit, you could see a little bit. But it was just pretty much all just smoke and
so I didn't see much but as soon as they got the bridge across and of course they had these LCMs
that were supplying the ammunition, and the food, and everything that, and they had enough of
them to keep supply and they would bring back the wounded and whatever, you know. And they
could- they could take a Jeep over a small- small truck but they were all loaded with mostly
ammunition and stuff. But when we I- I just- just waited and they got the bridge in and- and then
I got, could see better. And the- the officers wanna go in, and in and we, the first two divisions
that went across on the bridge was the 95th and the 30th. The 30th was I think the ones that went
across in the scows and they also crossed on the treadway bridge that we, this outfit, our outfit
built and then the 95th went across. Well, this guy I met at the Tanglewood, he was in the 95th
and he was, he keeps telling me, “we crossed on your bridge,” and I said, “I didn't build that
damn bridge.” I said I was in the outfit, but I said I just drove the brass around, and he keeps
talking about it but you, have, well you’ve never been across them, a treadway bridge is, you
know what they are?
(1:28:44)
Interviewer: Can you describe it for the audience here? Can you describe it?
�Well, they have these rubber rafts and it's all built on these rubber rafts and they have what they
call the Brockway bridge truck, it's a Redwood truck, it's built just for- for this purposes. It has
two arms, and it has two treads on it, the treads are about ten feet long and about four feet wide,
heavy, real heavy. And what they do is they- they put one of these inflated rubber rafts anchored
into the river and then they back the bridge truck onto the approach to that raft and then the arms
come down and it has to be that they set down at the same time, if one sits down before the other
it will flip. So, these arms come down and at the same time these heavy treads sit on that- thatthat rubber raft and then the next truck will back up onto that raft and then they- they set them
down on the next one. But it's a matter of inflating and the anchoring is the biggest- biggest
headache and the biggest problem. The current in the Rhine River is very, very substantial and
you end, up you think the bridge is gonna be straight like this, it’s like this you know.
Particularly you get out in where the current is, you know, but anchoring it so that you know the
damn thing don't get away. And then they had a heavy pins like about as around as a big, as your
wrist that pinned them together. And then the, these bridge trucks would keep backing up onto
the bridge and as they put the new raft down in and is anchor properly, then they’d set another
set of treads on that one and they pin it together, and that's a treadway bridge. And it took a lot a,
more than one treadway bridge company to put- put that bridge across the Rhine River I'll tell
you that. So, that's the way they- they do it and about three days later the first ones went over
with these- these two divisions, and then we followed up about on the third day, then we went
across, but while I was screwing around just waiting all day, this- this major, he was- he was
another one that I had. He was a shoe salesman, he was a major, his name was Roland, and I was
driving him at the time, and we were standing on one of these jetties that went on into the Rhine
River and we were watching the activity of the LCMs and what was going on across the bridge
�and everything, you could see it all for on this little jetty. Well while we was on this jetty, we
look up and on the front porch of a house it was up on along the- the bank of the Rhine River,
up- up, up a ways and it was probably about here to that bird house out there. Up and who was
there but Eisenhower, Churchill, and Montgomery, and they were on the front porch of this- this
house and they were talking. So, we stood there and we was watching them, you know, well then
all of a sudden in comes one of these LCMs at the end of this jetty we were on. And they
dropped the doors and everything's down and who comes down from up there, Churchill. And I
didn't know this, I thought he was gonna come across the Rhine River, but it was a photo-op and
had all these guys behind him you know and everyone, and- and they had these cameras and all
this. He walks right by us, I could have reached out and touched him. He gets- he gets here, we
was, this major and I was only two on that jetty. And he says next to me, and he says, “hey
Yank.” “Hey Yank,” he called me a Yank. He had his grey admiral outfit on and a black corona
and he goes down and they- they get on that LCM at the end there you know. And then they lift
the doors up and everything and there he is standing with these other guys at the end of it looking
over you know like as if he's going across the Rhine River and then they take his picture and all
that kind of thing. I begged this major to let me go down and get on that damn boat- ship you
know that LCM, you know. And I said, “let’s go, come on let’s go down there.” He wouldn't do
it and I thought about it you know, but I thought you know he said “no” and then I thought he’s
just a kind of guy that would court-martial for any damn thing, you know but he was a prick and
so we didn't get it. But I was in a barber shop one day after I got home, and he had all these old
magazines and stuff like the had you know. Well, he was telling me that, what was it, you probwell you wouldn't know… they had it would be like Life magazine or it was the paper or the
magazine that they got like Life magazine or Look or whatever it was.
�Interviewer: Yeah.
(1:34:38)
And he was telling me, he says “that was on the front page of one of those magazine” or
whatever, and I said, “one of these?” “Yeah!” He said, “it was on there,” and I said, “how long
ago was it on there?” You know he told me about it and I said, “well Christ I’ll have have to see
if I can't find that.” So I’ve been looking for it for ever since but I haven't been successful. But
that was my experience with a meeting Churchill.
Interviewer: Alright now once the, you’ve built the bridge across the Rhine and you go
across the Rhine, now what do you do?
(1:35:12)
We followed the 95th on up, they went on up to the Elbe River and what the deal was Patton and
his, when they captured that railroad bridge that they didn't blow down…
Interviewer: Yeah right.
And they got across, they got their Treadway bridge across without any resistance or any, so they
got across first but in between the two then they had about 400,000 Germans.
Interviewer: Right.
That was in this they….
Interviewer: The Ruhr Pocket.
They were in the pocket, well we was in- we was in support of this 95th division and- and we
were going up to the Rhine River or up to the Elbe River and it was all in an industrial area very,
very much factories and that kind of stuff. And what we would do is we would clean out these
towns in other words, what the deal was is the towns would, they’d throw a sheet out the window
and hang it down in front of you know all of it like that you know. Well then the other thing was
�is they had to turn in all their guns and they had to bring them to the burgomaster of the City Hall
or what it was. But there were always some that they need to clean out and that was what we
were doing we was cleaning out these areas. Well we was, one night that we was in this one
town, and we was cleaning it out, I was going down the main drain with some other on the other
side and I was on one side of the street, another guy. And one of the, a German walked out- out
of one the cellars right in front of me. And he had his hands on the top of his head you know,
scared the hell out me you know. And I just waved my carbine on where to go, the MPs, go that
way, and he walked the main, the middle of the street down- down and they gave me credit for
capturing a German.
Interviewer: There you go.
(1:37:37)
German prisoner, I- know more captured a German prisoner... He’s a poor SOB you know that
he wanted to stay alive too you know, and he probably was in the same boat as I was. He
probably was a conscript you know.
Interviewer: Yeah.
That Hitler got from maybe Romania or some place you know where they he was no more
German than I was you know. But that was it but that's what we did and- and we just followed
the, on up and then the area where we were when the war ended was it was kind of a- a rural area
but it wasn't a farming area it was more of lakes and woods and- and that kind of a area. And
there was a few houses and it was more like maybe a resort area.
Interviewer: Yeah.
(1:38:32)
�I don't think it was a Black Forest or anything but there was a lot of the woods, I shot a couple of
deer in there I remember, that we had for- for dinner. But we stayed in a, it was, I would say
comparable to a bed and breakfast or something like what we have here, like it's a big house.
Interviewer: Yeah.
You know that, that's where we- we stayed while we was there. And the war ended there but we
was in what they call the British sector and so we just sit there in this German or in this British
sector until they relieved us. Well while we was there the Catholic chaplain’s driver and I did,
we got a leave and they give us a option of either going, they’d fly us to England or we could go
to the French Riviera, Nice, we didn't have no money and England's expensive and we had some
cigarettes and some soap and we had some- some good stuff, so we chose Nice and we- they
took us to a train and we- we ended up down in Nice. We stayed in the Negresco Hotel, the
Fanton, the best one in Nice. And we had all this barracks bag full of- of loot you know, our
stuff, we- we always kept the Champ candy bars that were in the- the chocolate that were in the
K-rations and the cigarettes, you know there was three or four cigarettes in a little package. We
have, we kept all that stuff and then we always got a ration once in a while, cigarettes and I
didn’t smoke and he didn't smoke, so we was pretty well healed as far as had stuff to deal with.
Well when we got there we wouldn’t want to go around with that barracks bag full of stuff so
we- we ended up in the jewelry store and we made a deal and he bought all of this stuff. The only
thing he wouldn't buy was a Lifebuoy soap, couldn’t give a Lifebuoy soap away, they didn’t like
Lifebuoy soap, but we gave it away you know, you know. We got rid of it, but we had all kinds
of money, we had French francs and we was, and then we always kept a few cigarettes you
know, I mean we always had one in our shirt pocket here, open and then we always had a few in
reserve you know, that was back in the room you know. That was our thing to really be nice, you
�know instead of tipping the waiter at the- at the Negresco you gave him a few cigarettes you
know. And the maid in the- maid up your bed everything, you give her a few cigarettes and that
was great, you know holy Christ that was- that was better than giving them money. And then if
somebody's nice to you then you give them a couple cigarettes or the girls you give ‘em a candy
bar, you know. And it was just a little, ones that came in the K-rations, but we kept the- we kept
the candy of course. But we had a good time and we had to spend this- all this money we had,
you know, and you- you’ve ever been to that Mediterranean?
Interviewer: I've been to that area, yeah.
(1:42:04)
Have you? Well and they, in front of the Nice it was right on the- right on the Mediterranean. It's
not like sand like Lake Michigan, it’s stones and it's round stones so that they're not sharp or
anything. So, you could lay in the stones and ain't too bad, but the beaches were topless. The
little kids up to maybe five/ six/ seven years old, they’ll- they- they were nude, they didn't have
no clothes- clothes and they were going swimming. And- and the ladies laid around, they were
topless, and they went swim- you know paraded around, but we didn’t have no swimsuit or
anything you know so we went in in our shorts, just our underwear shorts. When you come out
of the water you know it’s all the plastered against you, you know. But they don't care you know,
and we’d lay in the stones and sun you know and everything and it was- it was nice. And one
thing that- that we- we happened that, we was trying to spend some of our money so we went
into a- a ladies’ store and this fella I was with, his name was Bob DeKalb, and he was the altar
boy and the driver for the chaplain, catholic chapman. His- he had a girlfriend her name was
Dusty, and he ended marrying her and my girlfriend’s name was Doris and I ended up marrying
her. Well, we went into this ladies’ store and we was looking for something to send home, and
�they told us all you gotta do is pick it out and we’ll see that it gets home, we'll make out the
packaging and everything you know. We didn’t, we were a little worried about that, they said
“oh yeah we will, we’ll do it, don't worry.” But we got in there and they start showing us
different things and they would model it, you know they had models. We got down to negligees
and we thought we got to do something here, so we both bought a negligee, I bought my wife a
negligee, it's still up in the attic someplace. And they sent it home and my wife got it, and it, she
got it and I don't think she ever wore it much but it still, I think it's up in the loft of the garage.
But anyway, that was one of the things we did but one of the other things which was nice was we
met this nice lady, she was beautiful, young gal her name was Didastera, I can remember
beautiful women you know. Well anyway she was pushing her bike along and she had two long
loaves of French bread tied on the back on the rack and we got talking to her she- she was
walking along and- and she was able to talk some English you know, and we got talking as we
walked along, you know. She finally said, “well come to my villa,” and she lived right up, right
along on the Mediterranean, well she invited us to her villa, and I guess it was supper I guess or
something. And so that was at night we was gonna go to her- her home it was and she was, her
mother must have been either French and her father was Moroccan or vice versa but she was that
in between, you know and- and beautiful. I got a picture of her, but I can't get up in the loft to get
it. Well anyway her name was Didastera and so we, when we went to- to visit there and she said
to have supper, we thought we'd want to bring some champagne. So, we bought the champagne
from this guy and supposed to been the best you could buy you know, we got there and we
opened it up, she started laughing and laughing and laughing you know and we couldn't figure
what the hell she laughing about you know. Well the guy had gave us a screw on and it was
apple juice.
�Interviewer: Oh.
(1:46:48)
And we didn’t know no better, and it was apple juice. But that's what I remember about that, but
that's what we did and then we was up in British sector for quite a while until the British relieved
us. And so we did a little looting and a little this and that you know and I- I got a nice Hanomag
four-cylinder convertible sedan that I- I liberated.
Interviewer: Okay.
(1:47:23)
It was in this driveway or in this garage and next to this house and they'd build a bomb shelter in
the driveway, right in front of the garage is this bomb shelter. It's all cement and the concrete and
everything you know, that's why it was still in the garage because nobody could get it out of
there. So we get some of the demolition boys that had the- the TNT and we powdered that thing
out thinking we’d blew it to hell that bomb shelter. And then we push the stuff aside and drag
that Hanomag out of there, all it needed was some good GI gas, you know, we were in business.
So we rode around in a convertible, Hanomag, I gave it to a British guy when I- when we had to
get- get move out of there.
Interviewer: Now did you move then to a different sector?
(1:48:17)
We moved from there to back to Le Havre.
Interviewer: Okay.
And that's where they segre- that's where our outfit was broke up.
Interviewer: Okay.
�This, you know about this don't you, where you had to have the points?
Interviewer: Right.
You get out, well this is where they- they did the evaluating. If you was 32 you was- you was
out, I mean that was an action. And I don't know what all the criteria was, but if you was married
and you had children back home you- you made it. But it was the young guys that- that- that
really got it and I was young, so I didn't have any points and you had to be, to get point you had
to be in the combat zone, not- not in England, you know but you had to be in Germany and all
that. And I didn't have very many points, so the outfit was broke up, but we spent quite a bit of
time during that time that it was being broke up and they was doing the evaluate everything and
in order to kill time I- they have equipment, I drove a gravel truck it was a six by six only instead
of having a cargo body it had a dump body on it. But I got, I like doing that and they was
repairing the roads and trying to rebuild, you know for the people to get things a little bit back to
normal. People were trying to rebuild and they were knocking the mortar off of the bricks and
stuff and piling ‘em up in front of the house or lot so they could rebuild. And so I drove that
gravel truck mostly while I was in Le Havre waiting for an evaluation and what they were gonna
do with me. Well, when they decided they shipped a whole bunch of us to Epernay that was back
in France, in northern France and we went in a tent city, it was a tent camp and we was housed in
those tents. We ate field rations and- and out of our mess kits and stuff, we ate on the ground or
wherever we could find a place to sit or anything. So, it was pretty Spartan deal, but we didn't do
nothing.
Interviewer: And what- what time of year was it then? Was it getting late in the year?
(1:50:42)
�No let’s see that would have been, it was pretty good weather, it was decent weather as I recall.
Yeah, cause, yeah, we- we played baseball and we, you know.
Interviewer: Well, the fall can be mild in France if you get the right year.
Yeah, well it was outside of this town of it Epernay. Well one- one day, well I was there you
know well a guy rolls up in a Jeep and he hollers out my name and he says, “they’re looking forfor me,” you know and I said what the hell is this guy, what does he want? And he says, “get
your gear and come with me.” So, I picked up my gear and got in the Jeep with him you know,
and I says, “where are we going?” He says, “well we ain't far,” he says, “we'll be there in a
minute.” So we went through Epernay and then out in the country and we went through this little
town and maybe it was maybe five/ six kilometers outside of Epernay, we come to this great big
chateau out in the count- in a- in a field in the country. Big white deal all these brown steps out
in front of it you know going up to the- to the deal and there was some other outbuildings, you
know. And then, beautiful place you know, and he wheels in there, you know, big, long driveway
going into it you know, holy Christ, what's going on? So we get there and he says, “come on.”
And we climb all those stairs up to the, going into this chateau and we go in there and there's this
lady, big, tall or she was a tall, slim lady. Very attractive for her age I was, I bet she was a looker
during her time. But she was grey haired, and I'd say she maybe was sixty and she was in this
kind of room and we went in there and the guy says, “here's the guy,” and she looks me over, she
says, “you smoke?” I said, “no.” “You drink?” “No.” “You speak French?” And I says, “Un petit
peu” And- and- and she looks me over you know, and she says, “he'll do.” And then she said,
“get a haircut.” And I thought where the hell am I gonna get a haircut? But then she says, “take
care of him and show him where he's gonna bunk down and what- what his deal is,” you know.
So the guy takes and I said, “what the hell's going on? He says, “you're gonna be the Colonel's
�driver, you driver.” I said, “I am?” He said, “yeah.” He says, “come on and I'll show you whatwhat you're gonna be driving.” So, we go down to where the horses, this is a horse barn and
place, you know, but they had the cars and everything. This was a- a LaSalle, it had stars on it
and all OD and everything on it. And he says, “this is what are you’re gonna be driving,” and
then he showed me around a little bit. But everything was run by POWs, everything. The
household, everything and the POWs did everything and he said, “you want anything, just tell
the POW.” And- and showed me where I was gonna bunk in the- in the chateau, you know. He
says, “tomorrow morning you'll be at the bottom of stairways at eight o'clock.” “Okay,” so I
[unintelligible] went down the driveway, that thing out there at eight o'clock in the morning, I'm
there at the bottom of the stair with the door open, you know. And pretty soon the Colonel, he
comes walking down you know, and I never met him, I didn't know who the hell he was or
anything, you know. I snapped my solute you know, and- and he hops in the car and close the
door you know and then he says, “I'll tell you where- where to go,” and then he told me how to,
where to go and we went up back to Epernay and then- then we went and went south out of
Epernay, we went to Reims. Well, his office was in the schoolhouse where the surrender of the
Germans was, in that- in that schoolhouse, that's where his office was. So, we go there and are
you interested in knowing what the schoolhouse looked like?
(1:54:59)
Well, the schoolhouse was a dirty brown- or dirty red, but is built just like everything, is right on
the edge of the street and the administration part of it was all in the front, but it was built in a ushape and then it had two wings on each side, and it was two story but all the stairways and
everything was outside, and- and inside of the u was the playground for the kids. But you had an
air- outdoor- outdoor store- stairway to go up to the second floor, and an outside porch railing
�deal that went around to the different rooms. And that's the way it was laid out, but this room that
the armistice or the surrender was signed in was in this front part, and I just will walk by it
maybe half a dozen times a day, you know. But all it was was a small room and a long table in it
with chairs in it and they had a chain across the doors, so they didn't want you to walk in, going
in there. And that's the only way it was, well I- I was his driver and I learned as we went along,
you know. But he was kind of a, he was from the old, he was an old, from the old, before the
war, you know. He was old army.
Interviewer: Right.
(1:56:38)
He was a, actually a cavalry guy, he was a cavalry guy, that's where his background. Well
anyway he was the chief honcho for that particular they call it, OZ Section Six of- of France that
he- he was over. And this is where this chateau was, this is, was- this was his house, this is where
he was housed. I mean that was, that, it was the only one that was there, he was, no other officers
or anything, it was his house. And so, the other offices were that worked in this Reims deal they
had a officer’s complex there in Reims. Well sometimes, in fact every day at- at lunchtime well
I- I would, they walk just across the street a little bit to the officer’s mess and it was in a house.
You know china plates and white tablecloths and all that, you know where the officers ate and
everything, but I would drive over there, and it was in a courtyard kind of a place and it had a big
stone or a brick wall around it with iron spikes on the top and all that and an iron gate and
everything. But I had to eat in the kitchen, but I ate the same chow as the officers, but I had to eat
in the kitchen. Well, that's- that's the way it was and sometimes while he was- he would say
overnight, he wouldn't go back to the, and then I had to stay at Reims too. Well then, I slept inin- in a room in the attic of this, where the officer’s mess was. But I ate in the kitchen there for
�my meals and stuff, had two waitresses there and they served these officers on china plate, white
tablecloths, real, real fancy, you know and there must have been about, I'd say maybe four/ five
tables you know that the officers were at. And when I, when he stayed overnight, he stayed there
at the officer’s billet wherever they was, I never saw where the hell it was even, but they walked
to it. I never drove to it and I would stay and, had the place up in the attic and I got to know that
waitresses pretty well. In fact, they'd like to get out of there as quick as they could at night
because you know it was a long day for them. They had to have breakfast you know, and they’d
get there you know to have breakfast served and everything and so I'd help them, you know I
mean they would set the table up for morning for breakfast, you know. And I’d go and put the
plates, or I’d pick up the dirty dishes and stuff and I helped them. So, I got to know ‘em pretty
well and good, they were real nice to me and I couldn't figure out which one I liked the most.
(1:59:52)
Well, it was the dark-haired one instead of the blonde, and so once in a while I'd walk her home
after work but that was a problem. I come back, and the gates locked and everything, you know
and then I’m out, but I figured out how to do it, I climb a tree and then I climb out on the limb
and I dropped down on the inside of the wall. But that was in and so it’s no problem, you know,
that was I guess frosting on the cake I guess you know, that I got to hang out with these- these
gals. And they were really nice, you know, and they taught me a lot of French, you know, and
they wanted to know English too, they were nice. And I tell you, the colonel loosened up as we
got to know, he asked me, you know what where you from, you know.
Interviewer: Okay.
(2:00:52)
�And he called me Ramsey, he didn't care- know what my first name was or he didn't care.
“Where are you from?” I told him, I said Michigan, and we got to know and he says, “one day
you want,” out of the blue he says, “you ever ride a horse? You know anything about horse
riding?” I said, “no,” I said, “my dad was the milkman,” I said, “he had horse routes and where
they had horses that pulled the milk wagon,” I said, “once in a while,” I said, “my dad have to
take the horse down to the blacksmith shop to get new shoes,” and I said, “it was quite a ways
from the dairy barn where they kept the horses down to where the blacksmith shop was
downtown.” And I said, “my dad used to take and put the horse, a line on the horse’s halter,
through the window of the car, and an equal slow along and the horse would walk along side of
the car,” he said, “then my dad would let me ride on the horse,” and I said, “I just sit up there on
the horse and walk along with it.” I said, “that's my only experience in- in riding horse,” I said,
“it was a milk horse.” He says, “would you like to learn? I said, “oh yeah, that'd be nice.” He
says and he used to ride once in a while, he had a horse, it was a grey one and they had about six
or eight real nice riding horses, I think they belong to the viscountess. And so he says, “well tell
‘em to saddle you up a horse too.” So, he goes up and he gets his riding boots on and his riding
deal and all that you know. And he comes down and- and there I am in my, with his- his grey
horse that helped the POWs holding for him you know, and then one for me. Well then he shows
me how to get on and what to do and all that, you know and they were, they were English
saddles, they weren’t like what we have you know with the horn or Western. And so, I would,
he'd go ahead you know, and I'd be behind, you know, I'd stay with him, you know. We adjusted
the stirrups to my liking you know and everything. And I did all right, but you know then we go
across the countryside, you know and everything and it was- it was nice, but he loosened up you
know some, you know, but not too much.
�(2:03:22)
Interviewer: Alright.
But I gotta tell you …
Interviewer: We gotta pause right here cause this tape, you finished off hour number two.
So, I gotta… Okay so we've gotten in your story to the point where you got the assignment
now where you're working for this Colonel and he's taking you out, you learn to ride
horses, and so forth, and then off-camera you mentioned that the secretary, was the woman
who had greeted you when you first got there.
Oh yeah.
Interviewer: That she liked you too.
We got to be real good, are we on tape now?
Interviewer: Yes, yes, we are.
(2:03:54)
Well Odette kind of took me under her wing I guess, and she was very good counsel for me, and
you know what she liked about me? Whenever I talked to her, I tried to talk to her in French, it
was always in French and then she would correct me, and she would get a lot of laughs out of my
cobbled up what I was trying to say. But I always spoke to her in French, she liked that and sheshe told me you know that we gotta have a class, we're gonna have class and I'll- I’ll, we’ll have
classes and I’ll really teach you really French because my French was not, you know it was
enough I could get by but that was it. But she was a nice lady, and she gave me a lot of good
counsel, you know particularly with the colonel you know, I mean don't do this, don't do that, do
this you know and so I was, I was very thankful for that. But the- the colonel also was, when he
watched his- his health and his condition, he- he'd had me sometimes take him out in the
�boonies, way out on some country road, dump him off three/ four miles from the chateau and
dump him off. And I- I just leave him and go back, and he'd have to walk back, and he did that
once in a while but and other times he- he would, the horses he'd like to ride the horses, course
he was a calvary guy. And that was nice that you know, he let me go with him a couple of times.
(2:05:33)
Interviewer: Yeah.
But it was nice.
Interviewer: About how long did you have that job?
Well, I'll tell you we were supposed to go to Penton's- Patton's funeral the day that I got my
orders.
Interviewer: Okay.
To come home.
Interviewer: So that's like December…
That was a big, that was a big deal.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Well, let me go back a little bit, we got to know one better as we moved along and he- he
loosened up and, but he was very much salute, Military courtesy, you- you didn't get out of line,
you know what I mean. You was a peon, you was a buck private, I'm the boss, I'm the colonel.
So, I mean it was that, that way and that was okay, but I have to tell you, one day Odette told me,
says, “you're going to Switzerland,” and I said, “I am?” She says, “the colonels got leave, he's
going to Switz- wants you to go, we're gonna to go to Switzerland, you’re gonna go to
Switzerland,” and I says, “I am?” She says, “yeah,” but she said, “but you can only cash in 250
American into Swiss dollars,” she says, “you're gonna have to pay your own way as far as the
�hotel, your food, whatever else.” I said, “I ain’t got no money,” and she says, we’ll take care of
that.” So, they took care of that and everything you know and so when the colonel said, “we're
going to Switzerland on leave,” we went to Switzerland and Christ they treat me like as if I was a
general or something, you know, I had that American uniform on, they didn't know I was a… but
we stayed in the same hotel but of course not, he was in maybe some big place, but I was in the
same hotel. We didn't eat together or anything but sometimes we did, and I went my way, and he
went his way you know, and I had my 250 bucks, and he only had 250 America/ Swiss so he was
real reined in too, you know he couldn't go too hard wild, you know. Well, we got into Lucerne
and I thought I'm gonna go down to one of these casinos and I'm gonna work my 250 Swiss into
some real spending money, that was a big mistake. That was a big mistake, but I did get to do,
and Odette told me, you know she said, I said, “I want to buy my dad a nice gift and my sister,” I
said. And she told me, I said “I gonna buy my dad a nice watch,” and she told me what to buy,
she said, “buy a Longines or a Rolex or a Omega,” she give me a good advice, you know what to
do and everything and she really counseled me on what to do. And I never questioned where the
money came from or anything, but they give me the Swiss francs, so I was on the same level
with the colonel as far as money was concerned. But when we got there, we went to I think it
was Lucerne first and then we went to Zürich and then we went to, in the little villages and the
Alps and all that kind of stuff. But we did, really saw Switzerland and when we got in these little
villages and stuff off the beaten path and things, it would be lunchtime or something, you know,
and then we would eat together. We’d go into these little, I don't know what you call ‘em…
Interviewer: Inns or whatever, yeah.
(2:09:17)
�Little inns or whatever you know, and we'd have some dark bread and Swiss cheese and a glass
of wine you know and stuff. And we'd sit together and everything, you know. Here I was, I
didn’t have no, nothing on my sleeves or anything, I was just a buck private. And it was pretty
nice, but they treated me just royally, you know what I mean, I was treated really royally, and it
was really nice. And we saw, we went to Zürich and everything, we- we saw Switzerland.
Interviewer: Yeah.
And there ain't very many guys that was a- a GI that got to Switzerland.
Interviewer: Yeah that's- that's not too common at least not during the war, after the war
it was a little easier but still not- not usually where you went, yeah.
(2:10:03)
Well, it was after the, yeah.
Interviewer: Yeah, but even if… yeah.
Yeah, that was my experience with going to Switzerland. Well, I tried to be a good- good driver
and I- I minded my own business, he had a- a kind of a shine on the viscountess that owned thethe villa where we was staying, in other words when the military took over it, she got ousted and
she lived quite close in one of their houses that were used by her help, that her maid.
Interviewer: Yeah.
(2:10:47)
And gardener and all that kind but that's, she housed all them and everything, but she took over
one of those houses. And it was little ways from there the- the chateau and he used to like to seego to see her all the time, some evenings he’d say, “seven o'clock I want you there, we're gonna
go, you know,” usually it was over to the viscountess, and then he'd say, “pick me up at ten
o'clock, eleven o'clock,” or whatever it is. I always made it a point that if he said ten o’clock, I
�got there at 9:30, if he said eleven o'clock I got there at 10:30, I mean I always was waiting there
with the door open when he came out of that- that house where he was with the viscountess. I- II realize that you know this- this is where I belong, I- I- I don't I don't screw up but and I used to
take the car and I drive into Epernay and I had a girlfriend in Epernay. What was her name? I
can’t remember but I can remember her baby's name, she had a little baby, and she was about
four or five years, she was about maybe five years older than I was, but she was a nice lady. And
she’d invite me to her home you know and all that but I never let her ride in the car, she always
wanted to ride in the car, but I never would allow it, no, no. That was, I realized that you know
this is not, that's not right and so I never allowed her to ride in the car. But she had this littlelittle baby he was in a highchair you know, and his name was Christian and once in a while, I
always brought him something you know I mean it would be, whatever I could scrounge up out
of the kitchen, you know K-rations, whatever it was but I always brought him things. And the old
man, I always brought him cigarettes and stuff. And they were very good to me and what really
struck me the first time I- I had dinner there was the little baby was in the highchair you know,
and he had one of these, he wasn't on a bottle, but he has one of them cups, kids cups you know,
instead of milk you know, it was wine. Wine and water- wine and water, I thought holy Christ
the baby's drinking wine and water and it ain't even out of diapers yet, you know but that's the
way they do it.
(2:13:13)
Interviewer: That’s the culture, yeah.
Yeah, and but that- that was nice and, but he spent a lot of time with, he’d like to go over to the
viscountess and some days they'd go in the afternoon, he'd like to play tennis and they had a
tennis court. I take him to the tennis court and the viscountess and they'd hit the ball over the
�fence and then I go chase the balls and throw ‘em back and you know and all that, you know but
I was a stooge, you know. And, but I was a good stooge, I knew my place and I gotta tell you
this, one day it was in the after- it was in the afternoon. He says we're gonna go pick up the
viscountess and they were gonna go someplace, so we went picked up the viscountess and heshe said “well, drove me into Épernay,” well what they did, what she did was she took us to her a
champagne factory she owned the champagne factory in Épernay. It was called the PiperHeidsieck.
(2:14:15)
Interviewer: Okay.
Champagne.
Interviewer: That’s a- that's a big company, yeah.
You know Piper-Heidsieck?
Interviewer: Yeah, yeah that still exists.
Well she owned it, we went there you know and I get out and open the door for ‘em and
everything you know like that and they get out and she says, “come along, come along” to me
you know like that. And I- I looked you know, I looked at the Colonel he gave me a dirty look
you know, and she says, “come along, come along,” and I slammed the car door, and I went and
joined them. He didn't like it, but I was there, she was the one that was calling the shots. Give us
a complete tour from the start of how the champagne is made with the squeeze of grapes- the
grapes and all that things, we got down in the archives you know where the tunnels were and all
that it is and everything you know, very interesting.
(2:15:06)
�We got down in these long tunnels where they and on each, dark as pitch, dark as, you just, you
couldn't see the hand in front of you. On each side is- is these racks and they have these bottles
of champagne on a 45 in these racks and they have these, what they call shakers, and all the guy
does is he goes shakes these bottles all he and goes along. Well, when we were down in these
long tunnels I call them you could see the light of the shaker, what they had was a couple of bare
wires up in the top of the cavern and they had a long wooden pole that came down and on top of
it it had a light and as you slid the pole along on that bare wire, the light lit up, and so while we
was down there we had one of those and we slide it along and- and we'd- we’d see the shaker
was so far away, but she just described you know what- what they were doing and shaking. And
seven years, seven years that that be wine there, well we got the complete tour, and we went
back to where they showed where they bottle it that final thing. And where it was ready to be
sent to market, you know what she does, she gives the colonel a magnum. You know what a
magnum is?
(2:16:40)
Interviewer: A very large bottle.
Then she gives me a magnum and the colonel he, holy Christ he about fell through the floor you
know. I took it and then I cradled that like it was a little baby, you know I didn't want to drop
that sucker, you know. And I thanked her profusely, you know holy Christ, Oh yeah bon jour,
merci beaucoup, I went crazy. She really knew that I appreciated it you know, well as soon as we
got back to the chateau where and I was able to get down to the barn and I got one of the PWs to
build me a wooden box. And we- we packed the wooden box with hay and the magnum, and this
wooden box, all packed in hay. And put a label on it and shipped it home and it- it was it- it
ended up with my wife. She was my girlfriend at the time, and I didn't know it, but she didn't
�open it up ‘till I came home and then we popped the cork when I- when I got home, but a
magnum!
Interviewer: Yeah, that's pretty good.
(2:18:00)
That's pretty good a’nit it? Yeah, well, it all ended when every day they got a messenger it came
from Reims on a motorcycle. I have to tell you this, one day it was there, he comes on this it was
a Harley 45 Military bike that he brought messages from Marines, so I got to talking to him and I
says, “let me try riding that, let me see that” you know, “show me that.” And- and he gave me
enough instruction, you know so I took it out in the field, and I rode it around the pasture, around
you know, and I was riding around like that. I thought I was doing pretty good, you know. So, I
took it out on the road and I was doing pretty good, going down the road, you know but all of a
sudden I was going through this village between Epernay and where we were, and somebody
backed out on some side street in front of me and I put on the brakes and I went right over the
handle bars and I, it was cava- or cobblestone streets you know, ruins, I was skinned up pretty
good. But that was my end of my motorcycle, but the car- the bike was all right it didn't get
banged up. But that was my end of my motorcycle.
Interviewer: Yep.
So, I never rode a motorcycle, that was it.
Interviewer: But did that guy bring in the news on who was going home or that kind of
thing?
(2:19:24)
That was what it, yeah well it was the day before, it was the next day we were supposed to go to
Patton's funeral and I knew that and the guy comes from Reims with the messages and stuff and
�Odette calls me and she says, “we got orders here that,” and she told me about what the orders
where you know that I would, had orders to go home. And she- she says, “you're not gonna go
home are you?” And I said, “I sure as hell am,” I said, “why wouldn't I?” She said, “why would
you wanna go? You got it nice here.” I said- I said, “I only want to be in the Army as long as I
have to be,” I said, “I'm a draftee, I'm not no volunteer,” and she tried to, they tried to convince
me and then the colonel tried, he actually in person, he told me he says, “oh I'll drop… I’ll have
you flown home,” he says, “you’ll go to a cigarette camp.” He said, “you'll be there for two
months trying to you know for to get a boat.” And I knew that, and I- I- I was weighing all this
you know, and he was telling me you know that he would do this for me, you know and all this
and all that. And I was weighing all that, you know I was thinking about it. And I only had just
so much time to, I had to say you know, I'm going home and so I made the decision that I'm
going home. Whether it was wrong or right I to this today I- I figure it was a draw.
Interviewer: Okay.
Because what it was back home, what I thought it was gonna be was not, you know what I mean,
I thought it was gonna be like it was when I left, it sure as hell wasn't.
(2:21:19)
Interviewer: Before we get there and take you back home, I have a couple other questions.
One of them is, you mentioned when you were talking about the- the colonel of the 1153rd
and so forth and you said that you eventually got back at him.
Oh yes that's when we were up in Germany, we had a non-fraternization, you couldn't talk to the,
if you had to because you had to ask directions or something, but you couldn't fraternize, you
couldn't- you couldn't go and visit them at their house and whatever you know. Nonfraternization meant you didn't associate you just, they were off limits. Well, when we was up in
�Germany waiting for the British to relieve us, we didn't have no association with the officers,
they were off by themselves, we was in another area, we never seen them. Our direction was all
non coms and they never even bothered because they- they were, no reason why they had to
throw their weight around. Well one day this one of these captains and I forget what his name
was, I think it was Hernandez said, “we got to go to…” it was 16th Corps headquarters. And
“okay,” so we drove to 16th Corps headquarters, the colonel that was in charge of our outfit had
been court-martialed. And he was under house arrest in this town in, where the 16th Corps was,
we were going there to bring him some cigarettes and- and a couple of magazines or something,
whatever we had you know. So, I didn't know this, but we go there you know and there’s this
colonel under house arrest and he was in this house and he was up maybe on a second floor or
something and so our only contact with him was he’d, with the window open, and we talked to
him through- through the window. Well, here I was down there throwing cigarettes up too him,
and he was under house arrest and I was the SOB down there that he- he knew, I thought the
Lord sure works in weird places, crazy way doesn't it?
(2:24:13)
Interviewer: What was he court-martialed for?
Fraternization, he was shacked up with some woman in Germany there.
Interviewer: Oh, aha.
We had a S3 his name, was, what was his name? He was the S3, he was a major, what was his
name? I can't remember, well anyway him and the colonel didn't get along again and this major,
what was his- well anyway he thought that he deserved a promotion to lieutenant [colonel],
everybody herd, but the colonel no, no he didn't like him, they didn't get along well. So, this
major that was the S3 in headquarter squealed on him, and that was what it- what it was, and
�everybody thought that SOB for squealing on ‘em you know, but I don't know I guess, maybe
that’s…
Interviewer: You didn't- you didn’t mind.
Huh.
Interviewer: You didn't mind.
(2:25:09)
I earned the oven, I couldn't believe it you know here I am throwing cigarettes up to him you
know, and he knew who I was yeah.
Interviewer: On a different note, can you tell me what happened to Captain Spalding?
Pardon?
Interviewer: Can you tell me what happen to your Captain because he didn't come home.
Oh well all of a sudden Monday he never showed up, you know they- they transferred him out.
Interviewer: Okay.
Well, he never should have been in that anyway because he just was not, he was not, you know,
he was not capable of the position that he was in. A captain or anything I mean he- he was there
because he was a big shot.
Interviewer: Yeah.
In civilian life you know, and he was a big contractor that supposed to be you know, knows the
business and the contractor, construction business and which would be in the construction
business in the Army. But one day he didn't show up, I tried to find out what happened to him,
you know, and I crossed, I'd ask all around everyone I know, you know, what happened to,
where… you know best information that I got was that he was shipped to Antwerp. And that he
was a drinker and- and he got drunk one night and he fell into the fireplace.
�Interviewer: Oh.
That was what I was, that's what I was told, I- I never revealed that to anybody but that's what I
was told, so that, that's all I can tell you.
(2:26:44)
Interviewer: Okay and then did you have another story about Captain Hernandez?
Oh yeah, he would get you in a scrape just too sweet in other words when you was out with him,
he was a gun collector you know I told you about these towns we would go in you know and
they had to turn in all their weapons into the burgomaster then, we'd go into a town and he was
interested in he, where’s the burgomaster? He'd get in that room where all the guns were turned
in that the Germans you know, I'd be there with my arms out like this and I’d walk out of there
like as if I had a whole load of firewood you know. Rifles, everything that you could think of
you know, well once in a while I'd pick up one myself you know something that interests me.
But he- he’d have the whole back end of the command car full of these guns, well then his
problem was that he had to get them shipped home.
Interviewer: Yeah.
(2:27:40)
Well certain of ‘em would go on record, a 75 caliber or shell case, but some of ‘em were too long
they needed a 90 millimeter.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Shell case so then we had to find an outfit that had Patton tanks that had 90 millimeter guns and
then he would, once we’d find, he'd go all over looking for, find one you know and he’d dig up
all the information he could get to find out where there was an outfit, tank outfit that had 90
millimeter or Patton tanks. And when he’d find one, he, didn't give a damn whether they, he'd
�hall into one of them tanks and he'd get up in there and he'd pitch out the tubes out of there and
I’d pick them up and put them in the damn command car, you know. And then the tank’s got a
whole bunch of explosive shells in the damn thing, you know, he didn't give a damn, but I’ll
have to tell you how he went around. He had a paratrooper’s wire stock carbine just like what I
had, only had a wire stock. And it had a sling over like this and he carried it on his back, then he
was from- he was from New Mexico. You know how in the movies they had these- these
cowboys that had these low slung [unintelligible] quick-draw things you know with the leather
thing around ‘em with all the bullets in it you know and everything like that, that's what he wore.
Strapped to his leg like and he had a P-38 in that- in that quick draw holster, that's how he went
around. That was the way he- he- he- he went that was- was it, I always would get him, you
know, what the hell are you going around with that thing for? You’re gonna find some German
standing in the middle of the street gonna have a gunfight with you. He'd say, “when I fall out of
that Jeep, I want to come up with something’ smoking,” that was his comment. But he'd get
anywhere near the front he wanted to go, you know what I mean, I said, “nah, I'll stay here you
go ahead.” And sometimes he would, you know when we was on the Roer River he'd go there all
the time you know and that's, you know that's where the action was. I was a little rock then, I- I
would you know I’d tag along but I- I wasn’t out in front. But he was always looking for trouble,
he was that kind of guy, you know. But he was- he was able to handle it, I mean if there was any
guy that you- you got in a scrape with and you really need somebody you know to maneuver, he
was the guy. I mean there was nobody in the whole outfit other than him that I would have
wanted to take orders from. They all were, most of them are were shoe salesmen.
�Interviewer: Right, okay so now to go back to the main line of your story, so you finally, so
rather than going to Patton’s funeral or staying on, you ship home. So how long did you
spend in a cigarette camp?
(2:30:53)
I- I was shipped to Chesterfield.
Interviewer: Okay.
That's the cigarette camp that I was at and I was there quite a while but the thing I can remember,
and it- it was not too bad, you know we didn't do nothing. I mean we just waited for the boat, but
because I was a driver, and they did have some equipment around there that if you wanted to do
some work you know, and I- I was one that didn't want to lay around. I would- I would do
whatever was doable. Well, they knew I was a driver and so one day they- they said, “we're
gonna give a bunch of them a weekend pass to Paris.” Well Paris the is quite a ways, and it they
designate me the driver, well when you drive, you're the boss. You could guy have officer- bars
to your wrist, it wouldn't make no difference you- you was the one that run the show. And- and
so I had about probably twenty guys get in a 6x6 and I was the driver and we drove to Paris, and
of course the Big Shot you know they want to drive- ride in the front, my friend, whoever, I
forget who it was, but I had a friend, he drives- he rides in the front and they- they- they get in
the back. And so, I was- I was the one that called the shots. So, we drive to, and that’s quite a
ways you know and 6x6 you know you're, you get ‘er up to 50 you're doing pretty good, you
know. And we got to Paris and they have places where you, Military park and they were under
guard and everything you know, but there would be outfits from all over you know that you
could see their outfit on their bumper of their- of their trucks or whatever it was. And so, we
spent the weekend in- in Paris and of course they had places in Paris where Military could get
�their, could eat but no place to sleep, you had to buy your own place. So, we didn’t have no
money so we just bummed and caroused all night, you know. And we -we saw Paris real well,
you know, I had a friend and I and we went our way and everything and some of them just got
drunk and some guys whatever you know, whatever they gonna do and I went to the Louvre and
all the things you know, the Seine River and all over and one thing I do remember because we
was carousing all night there was a- a milkman it was a horse and wagon deal in Paris and when
I saw that this was a milk man I thought holy Christ I gotta have- I gotta have a bottle of milk.
And so, we stopped him and we each bought a bottle- bottle of milk. And we paid him with
cigarettes. Well, there they have them as, you know how a food jar has that wire business on it,
you know and the, well this had that wire business only in a cork, and that's the way it was
bottled, and it had the cork in it like that. And so, we, my friend and I we each bought a bottle of
milk from the guy and holy Christ that really was- was really good you know. I hadn’t had a
bottle of milk in three years, so we bought this bottle of milk but that was the thing I remember
about Paris is having a bottle of milk. But and we went, you know had a- had a good time and
neither of us were drinkers or anything so you know it was no problem. But when I got there,
when I told them, I says, “now we're leaving at certain time,” I give them, “three o'clock Sunday
afternoon you be here, otherwise you're gonna walk back.” Well, that was a bunch of baloney,
you know that wasn't true at all because I know that that it wasn't gonna happen, but I told- I laid
the law down you know. Well, a lot of them didn't, they got back you know, but there was
always a couple of three/ four stragglers you know that didn't show up. And the guys would be
there waiting you know and then me, I- I- I wanted to go back with all of ‘em, I didn't want to
leave anybody. So I- I had the problem of pacifying the guys that was there, they were anxious to
go and they were tired- tired of waiting and all this you know and I- I finally waited them out and
�here comes the guy drunk and he's staggering and you know and everybody loaded him on the
truck and- and you know we finally made all the guys that was supposed to been there, did
number I think about twenty, and then we back to the [unintelligible] But that was a big deal,
Camp or…
Interviewer: Chesterfield.
Chesterfield.
Interviewer: Alright.
(2:36:02)
And when I did get a- a ship it was a victory ship, victory, pretty new one. I forget what the name
of it was, but it was pretty new, and it wasn't a troop transport or anything, but we were able to
lay on the deck and up on deck and soak up the sunshine and watch the, you know the ocean and
it was a nice trip going back.
Interviewer: But that was in the middle of winter by then or? Cause you get…
Yeah, I got home, and it was in- it was in the winter.
Interviewer: Yeah, January is when you got home, I think so, yeah.
Well, when we got to New York or they dumped us off, I don't remember much but they just told
us to go to the nearest, they had, picked out where the nearest Army camp replacement where
you could be mustered out.
Interviewer: Right.
(2:36:59)
And I was, it was down the, I thought it was a Great Lakes Naval…
Interviewer: Station in Chicago or…
But it was down there by Chicago, but it was… what the hell was the name of it?
�Interviewer: Well, it was Fort Sheridan which is the Army base.
There you Fort Sheridan yeah that's where it was. And I was all alone there and that's where I
was mustered out and I got about 150 bucks and I went into Chicago, that wasn't too far and I- I
got a train to Muskegon in um, it was a night, it was at night I must have got home about, in
Muskegon about maybe ten o'clock or so at night. And I got pegged into that, it's now a tourist
resort thing down there on Western Avenue by the Anaconda or Amazon and I walked down
Western Avenue to, I was looking for a telephone and I got down to Terrace Street and there was
a Greyhound station there and I went in there and I called my sister, that was the only one I knew
that I looked up in the phone book. And her husband came and picked me up and I spent the
night there with my sister, but this is the big surprise, I thought everything was gonna be the
same as when I left, it wasn't- it wasn't. No, my dad- my dad was not one to write or anything so
this, I didn't know anything about this, he remarried while I was- I was gone. My brother had
come home, he'd come home probably six months or so before I did and my dad had bought a
tavern in Holton and they were living in Holton and they weren't at where I used to live on, you
know, my dad still owned the house, but they weren't living there, and they moved out of there
and everything but that wasn't there anymore. So, I was looking for my clothes and my things
you know everything, they were all gone, there wasn’t a damn thing. Not one thing, you know
kids have…
Interviewer: Yeah sure.
(2:39:18)
Some things you know I got a baseball glove, and you know we had something, not a thing, there
wasn't a damn thing so they must have thought I was not gonna come back or something and
they dumped it all when they moved. And they had it's a very small place next to the tavern there
�in Houghton and my dad had got on the sauce. And he was not himself at all, but I understood
too, you know that he was alone when I was taken away and my brother was gone, he was alone.
And I know what alone, living alone was like, I've lived on almost for six years. It ain't good so
I, my dad was a very good dad. I never faulted him for getting married, I never faulted him what
he did, and I- I always thought he was a great dad, but it wasn't the way I- I assumed it was
gonna be, it was tough. But my brother he kind of took to the bar business, he liked it, I didn't II- I couldn't get far enough away from it, and I didn't know what to do. I was up in Holton and I
didn't have no car, I didn't have no clothes, I didn't have nothing. So, it was kind of tough and I
couldn't go nowhere but my dad would let me once in a while take his car, he had a- he had a nic
car when we left it in 1941 but he must have traded it off for something and he had a kind of, it
was a coupe of some kind, it wasn't much of a car at all, but once in while he let me take it, but
you know Holton is quite a ways from Muskegon but my brother while he was home he made amet a friend that was in the G- he was an officer, it was a friend that lived up that way and they
made, he made friends with him and they were gonna go to business college on the GI Bill, and
they had made arrangements for this school down in Battle Creek. And so I- I said, “well how
about me going along too,” and this little coupe he had that was the car he had, I could still, the
three of us could get in it. And so I convinced him that I could help him with the rental and all
that kind of stuff you know and so I was included and we rented a upstairs of a house in Battle
Creek not too far from the school. And we went to Business College and on the GI Bill and my
brother he went and then this, his name was Ward- Ward what? That was the other guy, Ward, I
don't remember his last name. And so I went to Business College and- and then when the term
ended by my brother he went his way, and I went my way and everything and I went back to
Muskegon and I boarded at a- at a house on John Street and I- I just boarded there and I ate all
�my meals and everything but I didn't want to establish myself or anything. My dad had this
apartment above the house where we used to live but I didn't wanna buy a lot of furniture, buy
furniture and everything like that so I didn't but I went to work for John Wood, they made gas
pumps and I worked in the- in the cost accounting department. It was alright I learned a lot but I
didn't like it and this Ward that I told you about that we went to school with and business school
with, he kept in contact with me and one day he told me he says, he got a job with, it was called a
Michigan Foundry Supply Company and the owner of the Supply Company also owned a
foundry, it was called Weiner Foundry. He says, “they’re looking for somebody for their office
why don’t you go see it.” So, I went there and I- I got the job and what it was is I was gonna be
the billing clerk and what I did, I did the billing and kept track of the production and so forth and
I'd yell a lot with the Continental Expediters is, that was the biggest customer of the- the foundry.
But I worked about just a desk away from where the purchasing agent worked and so I knew
pretty much all that, what was going on in the purchasing. And he would have days off and
maybe get sick or sometimes vacation so and then I’d take over as, in the purchasing. Well he
quit one day, he was from the south, he was a southerner and he went back south and so I just
stepped over and I took over the purchasing and I and I don't mean to brag but I was a hell of a
lot better person you can imagine than he was, but I- I learned the purchasing business. Well, I
wasn't- I wasn't married or anything I was single and I- I was just bumming around I was lose
you know, and I just couldn't settle down I didn't know you know. When I came home my
girlfriend that I had been corresponding with and been had before the war, she was going to
college, she was down in Ann Arbor, she was going to U of M. I went down there once and we
went to a football game, but you know she's down there and I'm here, you know So it didn't wewe just fell apart for about five years, I was here- here and I went my way, and she went hers. I- I
�don't know how the hell we got back together but I think it was by- by mail. She when- when we
got back to finding out what she was doing and so forth she was working for DuPont down in- in
where was it…. Waynesboro, Virginia in their orlon plant and she graduated from the U of M in
a- in chemistry, a major in chemistry, smart gal holy Christ she was smart. Well, we got writing
back and forth you know, pretty soon she says, “well why don’t you come down and- and visit.”
Meet down there you know, I said what the hell, so I went down, and I spent a- a- a few days
down there with her. She arranged for have me to stay in a house pretty close to where she lived
and with some other people that worked at DuPont. She took me through the orlon plant at
DuPont and showed me all around down in the- in Virginia there you know. And the letter
writing continued, you know, she didn't like being away from home, she'd never been away
from, out of Muskegon and her life other than when she went to college, she didn’t like being so
way, afar from her family. So, it wasn't hard to convince her to you know she ought to come
back to Muskegon. I wasn't even, I didn't even have a job because I'd quit, and she came back to
Muskegon and we got married. I didn't have a job or a damn thing and we- we moved into where
I used to live when I was, before the war in this apartment where my dad and my brother and I
bache’d it. But that- that worked out but that’s the way it was, but it was tough, it was tough, I
that was the worst years of my life, even though I was single and free and everything I, it was the
worst time in my life. I had no connection anywhere.
Interviewer: Yeah.
(2:48:30)
And I had no, for so long I had no decent clothes, when we were down in Battle Creek our noon
hours were spent, we'd have lunch it was always at a Chinese place, we always had at the
Chinese place. Then we would go around to all the stores like Montgomery Ward's, Penny’s,
�Sears and Roebuck, all the stores that would have clothes, and we would see whether they had
any, anything that we could wear or anything. And the clerks in the store they got to know us
Christ and everything, some of them were very cooperative you know we just tell them what size
you know we have, and they'd stick it underneath the counter for us. And you know a shirt was,
we didn’t have no shirts, we had GI shirts that's why you never seen very many people that had a
complete uniform because they wore ‘em out, you know. I had a blouse or like a- like a jacket
and that's about all I had left, you know but all the rest of it I- I wore it out, you know. And
eventually you know when you get a- a shirt and you maybe get a, some socks and you get some,
stuff you know, and then you get a sweatshirt or a sweater or a jacket or something, you know.
And eventually you know you get a- enough so that you can look like a civilian again, you know
and that's the way it was you know.
Interviewer: Now after you got married then did you kind of get focused and find regular
work or what’d you do?
(2:50:10)
Well I tell ya, this is what, a godsend, when I was working at this Weiner Foundry, there was a
young engineer that came one day when I was in purchasing and they were, they had suddenly
got hooked up with a pipeline, the Panhandle Eastern Pipeline and they had a lot of gas. And
they were out pedaling, they wanted to get some customers and this Weiner Foundry used a lot
of, it was- it was, what was it? It was heavy oil, in other words if it- if it wasn’t heated it would
get like a lard.
Interviewer: Yeah.
And they used it for their core ovens and their annealing ovens and stuff, so they used a lot of
that heavy oil. He came there one day, and he was peddling his- his gas and I was very good to
�him and everything you know. And I said, he wanted to see you know the foundry, how- how
much we used the field oil and all this, heavy oil and stuff. So, I took him and showed him
around you know, I spent a lot of time with him, I showed him where you know how- how, you
know much, how many core ovens and how many annealing ovens and all this stuff you know
and everything. And he- he tried to convince me to switch everything, over to, that's a big job
and it’s a lot of money to switch over to natural gas. We didn’t but I was very nice to him and
everything you know. Well, when I got married, I knew all these guys at the Continental that I
dealt with when I was at Weiner’s. And fortunately, the chief deputy person, at the Continental at
the time was named Morris Ramsey and they always thought I was his son. So, whenever I was
mentioned Ramsey, the association was with, was him. So, I- I went to work for Continental, I
was gonna, I thought I was gonna be a buyer in the Continental but no I didn't get a buyer job, I
was, what I did was I reconciled vendor’s invoices with a purchasing order, in other words with a
purchase order. If they purchase it and they said it was gonna cost a dollar, and they charge a
dollar and a quarter on the invoice, they didn't pay it, there had to be some reconciliation, I mean
I had to be the approver, say well no, you- you pay a dollar, you pay a dollar and a quarter. I was
the one, it was a hassle you know, I mean they was- they was always after me for approve,
approve this, you know they’re a good outfit, I said, “bull shit this is the price of the purchasing
order they- they took it, that's what they get,” you know. So, I was in that kind of a, I didn't like
it, one day one of the guys that worked at the desk next to me or so, he was an older guy, he went
to one of these lunch deals that they have at noon, you know it was the Kiwanis Club.
(2:53:35)
Interviewer: Yeah.
�Or whatever the heck it was, well he met the purchasing agent of the gas company at this thing,
they got to talking apparently and this purchasing agent at the gas said he was looking for
somebody to- to work with, to come in and- and work in the, at the gas company purchasing. So,
when he came back, he told me about that, you know so I- so I, he said, “you ‘oughta go down
and see it.” So, I did, and he hired me, and he was an older guy, and he was interested in retiring
you know, he was- he was on his way out. But when he hired me you know, I wondered what the
hell they hired me, what I was gonna do you know. Well, when I asked him, you know what they
want me to do, he says, “well just learn the gas company business,” he says, “just learn the gas
company business.” I says, “how do I do that?” And he says, “well,” they was in charge of all the
stock rooms and all the things that were they, stored all the gallons, that was part of the
purchasing department where they had these guys that- that took care of the stock ones and so he
said, “go over to the stock room and see what we buy and all that kind of stuff,” gave me kind of
real free hand, you know. So, I went over there you know, and I learned, well this is what they
buy, and this is what you buy, and I- I learned you know, this is the kind of stuff that they do
buy, and this is what it is and this is what it is. And I visited you know so pretty soon the guys in
the stock room they realized that I was the one that was pretty much, the guy never no said that I
was the boss or anything like that, you know but I would- I would do this, I would say to ‘em,
they had an antiquated thing it was, they handled appliances too like ranges and water heaters
and stuff. And they had this antiquated thing that they'd stack it up and they’d crank it and it'd go
up and they’d pushed it off and then- then they’d un-crank it and it’d go down in. I said, “where
the hell did you get that thing?” “We’ve had it forever,” you know I said, “you need a forklift
truck,” and they said, “yeah we’ve wanted one for a long time.” And I said, “I'll get your forklift
truck,” they thought I was blowing smoke. I got them a forklift truck and then every time you
�know I tell them something you know well we had a hire Dap [?] Truck and Crane Company to
unload the- the pipe whenever we got it in, loads of big heavy parts and stuff that was out in my
yard in the Heights. I thought that's crazy, we gotta have a- a- a lift of our own, you know. I'll get
you a hydro lift, they thought I was blowing smoke again you know, but in conjunction with the
use of the dist- of the distribution department, the guy that run that Joe Buck, he knew this would
be handy to have around too me because they had a lot of heavy stuff too. So, between the- the
Joe Buck and I we got a hydro lift. So, they got to know that I wasn't just blowing smoke all the
time and they realized that his name was Ken Gable that he had kind of turned the running of the
stock rooms in to, over to me. So, I learned pretty much the basic stuff, I knew what, when I was
buying something, I knew what the hell it was. So, any… let things loosen up a little bit and then
pretty soon I was buying stuff and the- the vendors that came in and things you know, he, they
would make a courtesy call to him and- and so forth, but then when they wanted the order and
got down to really, really, they come to me. And I was- I was really the one that was doing, but I
never signed my name on anything he was always the and I was often there when he was on
vacation or sick or someplace he wasn't there, I put his name, I never, anything that ever letter I
wrote where I was- I was doing, it was always went through him and it was his okay and
everything and, but they know eventually you know who- who was the one that was buying this
stuff and anything. So, I was for years I was- I was really the one and he didn't- he didn't pay any
attention to what was going on or anything I was, I was it. Just go see Ramsey, go see Laurin,
that's he’d tell the vendors and they all knew that you know. And I was a lot different than he
was, he was a, he had a lot of them that these vendors had him in his pocket, in their pocket you
know. I wasn't that way at all, but I had to go along as long as he was the person.
Interviewer: Yeah.
�(2:58:50)
But eventually he retired and then the manager of the outfit didn't like me, I was too- too
aggressive. And he didn't like me, but he knew that he had to okay me because I was the only
one that, that can replace the you know. So, I was appointed, and they had a picture in the paper
that, you know I was now being appointed the… I got a picture that was in a paper that I was the
first thing I knew. I made a hell of a lot of changes, these guys that were in his pocket now, they
you know this is change, this is- this is different. But I- I run this real tight ship and I- I really, I
got to be very what you would call influential or I had a lot of- a lot of weight. And because I
also had the responsibility of the maintenance of the buildings and that was also part of it, but I- I
worked very well with- with the other operating people. And I'll tell you how I operated, and I
knew how this- this works, I got to know the operating people real well but the vendors had to go
through me to get me them. And something happened or something that looked good to me and I
thought they should be, I would bring the vendor this, introduce them and I made a relationship
with them. But the vendors always knew that they had to see me first, and I brought them some
good- good advice and some good materials and things. So, I had a good relationship with them
and this one particular one, this is- this is interesting, they had a very big expansion program at
the time where they were going to know all different small towns like Whitehall and Montague,
Shelby, Hart, all that kind of, so there's a lot going on. Well, and so they had to work a lot of
Saturdays and overtime and everything. Well, this- this one Saturday this Joe Buck he was in
charge of the distribution, this, all this stuff, this construction and everything. He- he was, his
family they were scheduled to go to their cottage or someplace up north and they- they had
planned this for some time, they're gonna spend the weekend or something. And he had- had to
work, he said that he had to work because of some big project or something going on. And he
�was pretty perturbed that you know, he was because his whole family was disappointed. I told
Joe, I said “Joe you go, I'll take care of things.” He looked at me he said, “no I can't do that.” I- I
said, “Joe, I'll take care of it, don't worry about it, I'll take care of it.” So, I convinced him that I
would take care of it and don't worry about it I'll see that everything is all set Monday morning
you will never know that nothing happened. I never mentioned anything in Monday morning I
nev- I never go near him or anything like that, you know everything is perfect, going along you
know, he comes to me says, “well how did it go?” “Went okay,” and then he just starts asking
me questions, you know about you know how did this go, you know and I said, “well okay.” And
I made no big deal of it you know. So pretty soon they got to know that if they wanted something
done just let me, let me know and I took care of it. And I got into a lot of things that I shouldn't
have been, but Joe was very- very int- he was a good- good guy to operate with.
Interviewer: Okay.
(3:02:59)
I'll tell you one deal that really made- made them take notice, this engineer that came to see me
when I was down at Weiner Foundry, they made him the district manager after this one that
didn't like me, he- he was made this district manager, so he knew me from the time that I had
met him down at the Weiner Foundry.
Interviewer: Yeah.
And so, I had a better relationship, well anywhere I’ll tell ya what happened, this is- this is one
big deal that, they was buying gasoline and- and I was responsible for buying it. And the stock
department they went to the stock department to get their gasoline, the stock people fill the gas
tanks when they needed gas and so they kept track of it. Ol’ pump that didn't know they had a
500-gallon storage tank and was paying eighteen cents a gallon for gasoline at the time. And I
�couldn’t see that at all and so I worked up all the thing, what it would cost to put in a tenthousand-gallon tank, new pump with a- a- with a printed- printer in it that printed what gas was
taken out of it and all this, it was up to date, you know. And what was gonna happen was that I
was gonna be able to buy gas for nine cents a gallon instead of eighteen, and I worked this all up,
all the, how much it was gonna cost to do it and where, everything, but I had to go to Joe because
he was gonna be responsible after I just worked out because his night crew that was in the garage
was gonna have to dispense the gas at night. And it was gonna be in his area and the gas pump
and everything was gonna be moved from the stock area to- to his area. So, it was kind of a joint
deal, but I had everything all worked out down to the nickel, you know, the payoff time was
gonna be two years and it would be all paid off you know. So, my boss which- which he was still
there then and- and this Joe Buck was in, the head of the distribution department, they went to
they, the budget meeting that they had where they developed the budget that Muskegon was
gonna supply government, ask what money they wanted for it in Detroit which was the ones that
run the company or own the compay, it went through just like that and they…
Cut off at end of video (3:05:57)
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
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1914-
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
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RHC-27
Language
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eng
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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RamseyL0679V
Creator
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Ramsey, Laurin
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2008-01
Title
A name given to the resource
Ramsey, Laurin (Interview transcript and video), 2008
Description
An account of the resource
Bob Hartman was born in Chicago, Illinois in 1919. He graduated high school in 1937 and joined the Michigan Army National Guard in 1938, assigned to the 126th Infantry Regiment, Service Company. His company’s task was to transport troops and provide them with ammunition, food, and clothing. He began as a truck driver and later became a Supply Sergeant. His regiment went on maneuvers that lasted up to two months, traveling to places such as Texas, Louisiana, and Alabama. When Pearl Harbor was bombed, Hartman was in Jackson, Mississippi to see a football game and was ordered to go back to camp immediately. He was then shipped to Fort Devens, Massachusetts for about a month before taking a train back to Frisco, Texas. After that, he was shipped to Angel Island and boarded the Lurline to head for Australia. He landed in Adelaide and then took a train to Brisbane. Later, he flew to Port Moresby where he marched across the Owen Stanley Mountains and saw jungle combat as a platoon sergeant. Hartman suffered from malaria during battle, and the sickness continued to recur every month for about five years. Hartman later was flown to Papua New Guinea. He made a beach landing in Saidor, where he experienced a few skirmishes before arriving at Aitape a month or two later. At Aitape, he was shot in the stomach presumably by a sniper. He was hospitalized on base before being shipped back to Australia and eventually the United States, where he spent time at several hospitals in San Antonio, Illinois, and finally back home in Battle Creek, Michigan.
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World War, 1939-1945—Personal narratives, American
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https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f53ca79a48a41e3dcab3a99127807a75.pdf
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PDF Text
Text
Young Lords
In Lincoln Park
Interviewee: Carmen Rance
Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez
Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections
Date: 3/30/2012
Biography and Description
When Carmen F. Rance’s family first came to Chicago from Puerto Rico, she lived at the Water Hotel
then moved to Lincoln Park where she grew up. She joined the Young Lords through the Breakfast for
Children Program, waking up early morning after morning and volunteering to cook home-style meals
for elementary school children before they attended school in the mornings. Her family owned a large
apartment building on the corner of Clifton and Armitage Avenue where many other Puerto Rican
families lived. There was a storefront downstairs where bands played and held parties. Her family was
active with Council Number 9 of the Caballeros de San Juan and Damas de María, at St. Teresa’s Church.
St. Teresa’s had a separate hall that was used by the Caballeros and Damas to throw larger dances,
weddings and other events. Ms. Rance recalls how St. Teresa’s became a major focal point for the
Puerto Rican community at a time when the community was growing rapidly and spreading beyond the
neighborhood dividing line of Ashland Avenue. Groups like the Young Lords, Black Eagles, Paragons,
Flaming Arrows, Imperial Aces and Queens, Continentals, Latin Eagles from Addison and Halsted, Latin
Angels from Humbolt Park, and the original Latin Kings from Wicker Park would all come to the wellorganized, safe dances run by the Damas and Caballeros at the church. There were few fights but always
lots of competition on the dance floor. Today Ms. Rance works as a case manager and has been a lay
leader in the San Lucas United Church of Christ for many years. That church also has a long history of
�community activism through leaders like Peter Early, Rev. María Lourdes Porrata, and Rev. Jorge
Morales. Together, they created the West Town Concerned Citizens’ Coalition, which has rallied against
police brutality, hunger, and promoted affordable housing. The church runs various programs including
a food pantry. On September 23rd, 2008, the Young Lords celebrated their 40th Anniversary at the
church.
�Transcript
CARMEN RANCE: Because when we -- I was part of the Young Lords, and we did, and
we did that and then people sit there and they -(break in audio)
JOSE JIMENEZ:
CR:
Okay. Say what is, you know, your name and --
My name is Carmen Flores Rance and raised in Lincoln Park, you could say. But
no, a Chicago resident. Didn’t move too far from the neighborhood. So I don’t
know anyone. Ask me question?
JJ:
Were you born -- you were born here?
CR:
I was not born here. I was born in Puerto Rico. I came here when I was five
years old, and my sister was six years old. And we -- when we first came here
from Puerto Rico, we stopped at La Salle and Superior and we lived there at La
Salle and Superior. It was a Puerto Rican -- there was quite a few Puerto Ricans
around there. And --
JJ:
What year was this?
CR:
This would have been ’56, ’57 that I came [00:01:00] because I was five and my
sister was six. And that’s when the fun started. So we were there like maybe five
years.
JJ:
And you were how old at that time?
CR:
I was -- when we moved out to, you could say Lincoln Park, because I consider
Larrabee -- I don’t know what community was that, was Lincoln Park. We moved
1
�from there. We were there for like six years. But we lived in a very small
apartment.
JJ:
Back on La Salle and Superior?
CR:
On La Salle and Superior. We lived in a third floor --
JJ:
So how old were you then when you came to --
CR:
Five. But we went straight there. We lived --
JJ:
What do you remember there?
CR:
There was -- the few Puerto Ricans that were there -- I mean, it was Puerto
Ricans, but you know, I was small. So I remember my mother and my father and
my brother. The Puerto Ricans that lived in the building, there used to be a
beauty shop there, it was Clara’s -- I don’t know if anybody remembers Clara
Byron. Clara Byron owned [00:02:00] that beauty shop on the first floor. She
used to do hair.
JJ:
You don’t remember the address --
CR:
Well, it would have been Superior. Seven -- could have been 700 West and
Superior.
JJ:
Back in the corner was the --
CR:
Right on the corner -- no, the beauty shop was in the first floor, we lived on the
third floor. So it was the building on that corner on the south and it was on the
west side of the street.
JJ:
Okay. Kitty-corner to where to Catholic Charities is today?
CR:
Right. And that wasn’t Catholic Charities. That used to be an orphanage.
Wasn’t that an orphanage in the late ’50s, early ’60s?
2
�JJ:
Yeah I’m not sure -- I’m not sure when.
CR:
Yeah it used to be an orphanage and then Catholic Charities took it over. For
everybody does not remember that there used to be an orphanage there and
then across the street from this flower shop.
JJ:
Because you lived right across the street from the flower shop. It still exists.
CR:
Yes. So we had to cross [00:03:00] to get to -- on the other side of the street.
JJ:
Okay and so there was a business there you said? A --
CR:
A beautician there, she ran a beauty shop there.
JJ:
Any other businesses that you remember?
CR:
That I remember, if you went on Clark Street, Clark and Superior, then you saw
some of the Spanish stores. But I was kind of little, so I don’t remember. But I
know there was a Spanish store there. There used to be one. There used to be
a theater there too. I forgot the name of that theater, but it was on Chicago
Avenue between Clark and Superior. It was a neighborhood theater and there
used to be a Spanish store.
JJ:
Did you all go to that theater?
CR:
I used to go to that theater. I think now it was strip joint.
JJ:
They saying [el meaito?] --
CR:
[El meaito?]. (chuckles) See, [el meaito?]. See I was right I remembered that
was. And we used to go there and see the movies. It was a little dinky little
place, but it was a -- now it’s a strip joint. It was I think a strip joint. And there
was a [00:04:00] Spanish store, and they used to sell Spanish products and stuff.
And then a little bit further down was Holy Name Cathedral. And we were part of
3
�-- we could go to catechism there. I remember Las Hijas de Maria. They would
teach the catechism class. If you remember Carmen Travieso was my catechism
teacher.
JJ:
Carmen Travieso.
CR:
Carmen Travieso. And it was a big Puerto Rican church. It was a lot of -- I think
that we had mass there, but we were very involved. Las Hijas de Maria y Los
Caballeros de San Juan. They were very involved.
JJ:
And this was ’56? 1956?
CR:
No it would be ’56, ’57, ’58. Because we went there for a couple of years. Then
from there we moved to --
JJ:
Okay. Where did you move to?
CR:
1714 North Larrabee.
JJ:
Okay, 1714 Larrabee. By Willow? [00:05:00]
CR:
Or what was that? Where was Saint Michael’s at? Sedgwick?
JJ:
I think that was Willow and Wisconsin.
CR:
Wisconsin. It was Wisconsin. Wisconsin and Larrabee.
JJ:
Or Menomonee? Was there another street called Menomonee?
CR:
There was a Menomonee there, but I can’t rem-- Mohawk. I remember Mohawk.
But we were on Larrabee. The 1700 block.
JJ:
So you went from going to mass at the Holy Name Cathedral then you were
going to Saint Michaels?
4
�CR:
Then we went to Saint Michaels. And there, we had a mass on Sunday. There
was a big -- it used to be a big community there. Because people would come
from all over to go to church at Saint Michaels.
JJ:
When you say big community, are you talking about Puerto Ricans?
CR:
The people -- yeah the Puerto Ricans that lived there plus the Puerto Ricans that
came. And I’m gonna say that they came from down North Avenue and probably
on North Avenue there was a lot of Puerto Ricans. There was a lot of Puerto
Ricans in Cabrini, and I believe that they also went to Saint Michaels. So I don’t
remember the crowd, but it was a lot [00:06:00] of Latino, lot of Puerto Rican
families there.
JJ:
So it was a big center at that time, Saint Michael’s.
CR:
Big center. And I’m trying to remember, Father Headley? Do you remember the
Father Headley from -- and other Headley was very (inaudible) to the Puerto
Rican, (Spanish), [00:06:16] spoke fluent Spanish.
JJ:
Father Kathrein.
CR:
Father Kathrein, that’s right. I forgot about him. He was there too for -- was
Father Headley from Saint Teresa’s?
JJ:
Our Immaculate Conception had mass too, I believe. Immaculate on North
Park? Immaculate Conception.
CR:
Oh yes. I remember Immaculate Conception, but I really didn’t hang out there.
My brother did.
JJ:
I wonder if it was Father [Reem?] or something like that. But I mean, that’s what I
remember. I just want to know what you remember in terms of that. So --
5
�CR:
I remember --
JJ:
So what was Saint Michael’s like?
CR:
Do you remember the Continentals from Immaculate Conception? They used to
hang out at the Immaculate Conception church. And they would throw parties
there. [00:07:00]
JJ:
Right. I remember that.
CR:
Vaguely I remember. My mother wouldn’t let us go out. Carlos got to go out but
not us. And they used to wear the pink sweaters with the big C. Was it pink or
red?
JJ:
The pink stripe was the Paragons.
CR:
The Paragons? No, but the Continentals --
JJ:
Continentals I think had -- they were red, white, and blue I believe the -- but I
think they were light blue, and then (inaudible) was a red stripe or something like
that.
CR:
Okay. But we didn’t go out. We didn’t go out because my mother wouldn’t let us
out.
JJ:
But you -- we were talking about a lot of youth at that time with different color
sweaters. Is that what you’re talking about?
CR:
Yeah.
JJ:
Or am I putting words in your mouth?
CR:
No, I’m not. The Paragons. Give me some other names. The Continental.
JJ:
The Black Eagles.
CR:
The Black Eagles.
6
�JJ:
Flaming Arrows.
CR:
Yeah.
JJ:
Imperial Aces and Queens. I don’t even think --
CR:
All them people.
JJ:
Youth.
CR:
And weren’t they mostly Puerto Ricans?
JJ:
Right. They were mostly Puerto Rican. Now were these the gangs that you
[00:08:00] call gangs today? Or --
CR:
What you call gangs today but not with the violence piece. I think they just used
to throw parties and hang out. But fighting and doing -- I didn’t see too much of
that. It was more like having parties and meeting. That’s what I remember but
my mother would not let us out. So I really didn’t know what’s going on. I just
used to see them, so.
JJ:
So but you saw them at mass too, right?
CR:
They would come to church. I’m not gonna say all of them came to church but
their families would come to church. And it was Puerto Rican families.
JJ:
What families do you remember coming to church?
CR:
Oh god. I remember the Lugos that lived in Cabrini-Green. What was the -Almestica, Almestica? Rosalia Almestica? Do you remember Rosalia
Almestica? Rosalia y Roberto [00:09:00] at the -- who was the other family?
There was a Puerto Rican family that lived in the projects. The first projects that
were built which was Cabrini which would have been like 1000 North on
Larrabee. And there was a Puerto Rican -- was a Black Puerto Rican family and
7
�those people we knew from when we first came from Puerto Rico. They were my
father’s friends. And they welcomed us to their house and then they ended up
moving into the projects. I mean those were beautiful projects and they lived on - and I never forget they lived on the 16th floor of the projects of the first CabriniGreen projects. And then when the projects started deteriorating. The elevators
were broken. People had to walk up and down them stairs. And one day, one of
his daughters got raped by thirteen Black boys in the elevator. She ended up
having a, pregnant. They didn’t want to give her an abortion. [00:10:00] And the
family moved out. That I remember. I remember the [Berrios?]. Joe Berrios
family lived in the projects. The Lugos lived in the projects.
JJ:
When you say the Berrios and Lugos. What is that just one family? Or --
CR:
These were different families with a lot of kids. They were Puerto Ricans with a
lot of kids. So it was at least six kids in each -- in their family. Almestica, they
had six. I’m trying to remember what was the -- Rosalia, Roberto, [Blitson?].
Because Blitson ended up moving with us on Armitage. No, they moved on
Halsted and Dickens. They own property on Halsted and Dickens, that family
that I was talking about. They ended up moving out of the Cabrini Projects when
their daughter was raped. And she had the baby. And her mother did not want
that baby. So this [00:11:00] girl was 12, 13 years old and she had a baby. And
the baby was never -- they gave it up for adoption. We never found out what
happened to that baby to this day.
JJ:
So now this is a Puerto Rican family. Their daughter gets raped by Black kids.
CR:
In those projects.
8
�JJ:
In those projects. Was there -- did that create any rift between the community
and --
CR:
No, I think the family moved out. I don’t know what happened after that. And the
kids did not get charged because they were minors. And no proof.
JJ:
So you said it started deteriorating. About what years did the deterioration start?
CR:
I’m gonna say ’60 -- maybe ’65? I can’t remember when Cabrini was built but
’65, between ’65 and ’69, that’s when we kind of moved -- I think we moved out
around ’68 to Armitage.
JJ:
Oh you were living there too?
CR:
No, I mean not in [00:12:00] the projects. We were living down the street.
JJ:
Down the street.
CR:
Yeah so the pro-- those first projects was like 1100 North on Larrabee, and we
were 14 or 1700 North on Larrabee. So we were like on the other side of North
Avenue. And there used to be a -- oh the Peñas. I don’t know if you remember
Paulina Peña and their family. That was a big family, and we knew them from
Puerto Rico, and they lived on North Avenue. 900 West on North Avenue. And
they were very close to --
JJ:
So they were from Guayama?
CR:
They were from Arroyo.
JJ:
From Arroyo. And you knew them from there?
CR:
And so --
JJ:
So what other towns were you representing?
9
�CR:
Guayama, Arroyo, Humacao, Mayagüez, Bayamón. So -- and we ended up
meeting that family -- the Peñas were a very big family. It was like about seven
or eight of them. And their kids are still around, and they live -- they were living
there first than we were. [00:13:00] They were living there first then we were.
That Puerto Rican family we knew. There used to a Five-and-Ten Cent Store on
North Avenue and Menomonee? Or Mohawk?
JJ:
Near there. It was near Larrabee. Yeah, I remember that. Yeah.
CR:
Remember that Five-and-Ten Cent Store?
JJ:
With the counter and everything like that.
CR:
Yeah that people would come -- Woolworths. There was a Woolworths.
JJ:
Woolworths, yeah.
CR:
There used to be counter where people would come there and eat. I remember
that.
JJ:
So you were living right around there. That section near there. And so that’s
North Avenue. So how was North Avenue in terms of Latinos at that time?
CR:
There was lot of Puerto Rican families living there. Especially down North
Avenue between I’m gonna say Clark all the way down to past Halsted was all
Puerto Rican families. And Larrabee too. All of Larrabee and Mohawk. The
Garcias -- Myrna and Gladys Garcia’s family lived there. [00:14:00] My
godmother lived there. They lived down Mohawk.
JJ:
What were her name?
10
�CR:
[Masimina?] y Don Pedro. That was my uncle -- I mean my godmother and my
godfather. And that was -- that whole building was a Puerto Rican family. And
then they ended up moving on Armitage. That’s how I remember that one.
JJ:
So you had people living from Park and North Avenue all the way to Halsted you
said.
CR:
Right. So there was Puerto Ricans all the way starting I’m going to say Clark, we
could say La Salle. There was a lot of Puerto Ricans living around there. And
they followed -- everyone followed each other. There was a lot of them living like
I said on North Avenue and then Larrabee and then it just kept -- Willow -- Burling
-- Halsted. What’s the other street? Dayton, [00:15:00] Orchard. Orchard had -Luis Gutiérrez uncle and aunt lived on Orchard. I lived on Orchard after I got
married. Well not get married but after my older days.
JJ:
And Congressman Luis Gutiérrez.
CR:
Right. His family lived on Orchard. Believe it was this. And then I remember
talking about El Congreso, that was on North Avenue and Larrabee and Caribe.
JJ:
And what did they --
CR:
They used to have dancing. There was dancing and it was the baseball league.
El Puerto Boricua I think it was the name. Puerto Boricua. And they used to
have really, you know, just family gatherings and --
JJ:
So Puerto Boricua was a different organization, or they were connected with the
Congreso is that what you’re saying?
CR:
They -- it was a baseball league. It wasn’t part of the church. It was just a
baseball league that they would have dances and people would come there and
11
�meet. I guess all the Puerto Ricans [00:16:00] that came from Puerto Rico, I
guess everyone would meet there. And I remember as a little girl going there
with my parents to the dances. So -- and it was a lot of Puerto Ricans.
JJ:
Puerto Boricua is a veteran’s organization or?
CR:
It was. It did have the veteran’s thing, but I don’t know what it stood for. I can’t
remember.
JJ:
(inaudible) I think it was a VFW.
CR:
VFW or VFM post.
JJ:
But it was all Puerto Rican.
CR:
All Puerto Ricans. Because my father used to be a --
JJ:
I forgot where they were located. You don’t remember or?
CR:
They -- that -- there was -- okay, let me see. It was two of them. There was one,
you know what I can’t remember. But it was more than one. One was on Ogden
I think, Ogden and --
JJ:
Chicago Avenue?
CR:
Maybe Chicago Avenue? That was number two. So we would exchange
[00:17:00] and go to different parties there. And then there was a lot of Puerto
Rican families around Milwaukee and Grand and Chicago Avenue, Ashland.
JJ:
So could this have been like part of the same community but in different like
pockets or? Because I know you were talking about La Salle and Superior and
now you’re talking about Chicago Avenue and Grand.
CR:
Right because some of -- a lot of the families started moving more north.
12
�JJ:
So they were moving more north. And looks like they were moving more west
too.
CR:
Mm-hmm.
JJ:
I mean pockets at least.
CR:
Pockets of them, but you know, couldn’t keep up with them.
JJ:
Because in between you had -- what were some of the buildings in between?
What kind of businesses?
CR:
There used to be the Spanish store, the bodega, La Bodega, the stores. I can’t -I was kind of small at that time, but I think it was [00:18:00] the stores. The
Spanish stores I remember.
JJ:
What was that a downtown or was it a industrial area or what kind of area was it?
CR:
It was just buildings. It could have -- just buildings. I don’t think there was an
industrial area, no. Just --
JJ:
Putting words. (chuckles)
CR:
No, I’m just trying to remember. Every time you talk, I’m just like remember the
houses around there. You know, third floor, fourth floor, fifth floor. I mean
walking North Avenue. But we weren’t that far. We were just --
JJ:
Oh so they were tall buildings.
CR:
It was tall buildings. Not, you know, row houses or like that.
JJ:
Where’d everybody stay? How -- what did it look like --
CR:
Oh my god. We lived -- okay, going back to Larrabee, if we were on Superior.
Superior and La Salle, it was a three-room house. And it was my father, my
mother, me and my sister, my brother. And then, you know, Puerto Ricans tend
13
�to bring their aunts and their uncles to live with them, the sisters and stuff. So it
was [00:19:00] my uncle and my aunt. We all lived in a one, two, three room
apartment. That was a three room apartment. So my bedroom, me and my
sister’s bedroom was in the kitchen. We had bunk beds. And I can’t remember
the other rooms. It was a very small apartment, but we all lived there for many
years.
JJ:
And where did you play? Or did you go out or? I mean, I don’t know what those
--
CR:
I don’t know where we played --
JJ:
-- the guys go out.
CR:
My mother wouldn’t let us out. When we were on Superior and La Salle, we very
rarely went out. We would be in the house. And if we did, it would be around the
neighborhood, and we would probably hang out in the beauty shop that was
downstairs. We would hang out there. But of going out to play, I can’t remember.
Just going to school, you know, and I went to Ogden. [00:20:00]
JJ:
Okay, you went to Ogden.
CR:
Ogden School.
JJ:
What do you remember about Ogden?
CR:
I remember about Ogden was that we did not speak English. So me and my
sister were put in the same classroom and my sister had already started school
in Puerto Rico. So when she came here, they put both of us in a classroom. I
believe we were maybe first grade. And I think they forgot about us. They didn’t
know that we were there. Because they never spoke to us. And at that time,
14
�again I would say my name is not Carmen. My name is Camila. They didn’t
know how to pronounce my name, so they changed it to Carmen. My sister’s
name was Mina. They changed it to Myrna. And then we had to learn Spanish in
the -- you know, I mean English in the street. Learn it little by little until you got it.
But of them having bilingual education to teach us, none of that. So it was very
hard. It was a very -- it was not a good time for us. [00:21:00] And we always
wanted to go back to Puerto Rico. Because I believe we came in the middle of
winter, and we were not dressed properly for the weather. And it was very cold, I
remember that. And we always used to cry and tell our mother that we wanted to
go back to Puerto Rico with our family. And we couldn’t. So that was the starting
of our life in Chicago.
JJ:
And actually, your parents, were they planning to come to stay here or?
CR:
I believe they were. My father came first. And I believe my father came to pick
cucumbers and tomatoes in Connecticut. He went to Connecticut, and it was the
time of the -- el Muñoz Marín, they had that bootstrap. And I believe the
churches were the one that paid his airfare to go and work in those fields. So
and I didn’t even know this until years later. My father was a migrant worker. He
came here to work. And then I guess he didn’t like it over there in Connecticut
and he ended up coming [00:22:00] to Chicago. And I believe some of his
friends that he knew in Puerto Rico took him in which I think was the Peñas and
the Almestica and the -- I can’t remember the last -- the family. Found a job at
Western Electric and that’s where he retired from. Like the next 30 years, he
worked at Western Electric.
15
�JJ:
That was a pretty good job.
CR:
At that time.
JJ:
Did they have other Latinos working?
CR:
There was a lot of Latinos working there. Blacks too.
JJ:
Western Electric.
CR:
Yeah. Western was well known. You had Western Electric, you had -- oh my
god what was the factories that were around there? On Clybourn? Remember
the factories on Clybourn? There was a lot of Puerto Ricans --
JJ:
Seeburg was there.
CR:
See-- yeah.
JJ:
OH MetalCraft.
CR:
MetalCraft was very well known. I remember those.
JJ:
Midwest Coil and Transformer was another one in Halsted.
CR:
Okay.
JJ:
Yeah because that’s -- [00:23:00] I knew there was a lot of factories at that time.
CR:
Right, but you know Western Electric was like on 35th or something and Cicero?
JJ:
(inaudible) was south, yeah.
CR:
It was south. So my father -- I used to remember my father every morning he’d
get up at three in the morning. Wait for the bus, take the bus -- and he didn’t
have a car, my father did not drive. So he had to depend on the bus to take him
and bring him back to work. I remember the blizzard of ’69 that the whole city of
Chicago was in a standstill because there was no busses running. The snow
was I don’t know how high the snow was. And he couldn’t come home so he was
16
�like stuck out there for like three or four days. I remember that. We were out of
school because everything was just totally dead. Nobody moved.
JJ:
And you were in school in Ogden at that time?
CR:
At that time, well the snow wasn’t -- when I was on Larrabee but during -- at
Ogden, I graduated from Ogden. And I’m sorry [00:24:00] I take that back. It
wasn’t Ogden. I ended up -- from Ogden I ended up in La Salle. When we
moved to Larrabee, then I went to La Salle.
JJ:
La Salle was on Sedgwick or?
CR:
Sedgwick and Menomonee? Or that was -- so Ogden was my first school when I
came here from Puerto Rico. Then when we moved to Larrabee, then I started
going to La Salle. We did go to Newberry but then for some reason we got
transferred out and ended up in La Salle. So I ended up graduating from La
Salle. And that was in ’65, 1965.
JJ:
From eighth grade?
CR:
From eighth grade.
JJ:
Okay. And there was just elementary, just kind of routine elementary.
CR:
Yeah, routine.
JJ:
Anything exciting at La Salle?
CR:
Not that I remember. There was a lot of Latinos. I can’t remember the names
and when we graduated, everybody took a different path. Some went to Tuley.
Some went to Lake View. [00:25:00] Some went -- I don’t know if Wells was
around. I can’t remember if Wells was around. Some went to Saint Michael’s.
17
�But we couldn’t afford Saint Michael’s, so we didn’t go to Saint Michael’s. We
ended up going Waller. Which is now Lincoln Park.
JJ:
Lincoln Park High.
CR:
Lincoln Park High School.
JJ:
But you went to -- did you go to Saint Joseph’s at all?
CR:
I went to Saint Joseph for the catechism and just -- but not for school. We
couldn’t afford to go to a Catholic school.
JJ:
Okay. So you went for the catechism?
CR:
Catechism and maybe --
JJ:
And where’d you did your communion? Where did you --
CR:
My communion was Saint Michael’s.
JJ:
Saint Michael’s.
CR:
Because Saint Joseph I believe was on Orleans, right? And Chicago?
JJ:
Right, right. So you were at Saint Michael’s, you were going to Spanish mass
[00:26:00] in the big chapel and everything.
CR:
Beautiful. Beautiful church. And then they moved out. They stopped the
Spanish churches -- they didn’t stop the service, they just moved it to a smaller -they moved it to the hall. And then from the hall -- it was shrinking. They moved
it to the rectory, in the basement of the rectory. Until one day they just stopped.
JJ:
So they started at the big chapel?
CR:
They started in the church. And from the church they went to the hall which was
Saint Michael’s high school.
JJ:
So were they advanced -- was that an advancement or?
18
�CR:
No I think it was a deterioration of the community changing.
JJ:
So the community was changing so, less --
CR:
The shrinking. Less people so they didn’t need that whole mass. You remember
Saint Michael’s. That was a humongous church.
JJ:
Well I remember a humongous church but when I was looking at some of the
documents there was not much record of Spanish people going to -- attending
that church. [00:27:00]
CR:
But there was.
JJ:
So you’re saying it was a humongous --
CR:
It used -- at one time it was a service where half the church was filled. And then
as people started moving, it just kept shrinking and shrinking and I guess they
justified --
JJ:
Half the church was filled of Spanish people?
CR:
Of Spanish people. Everything was in Spanish. The music was in Spanish. The
priest --
JJ:
And apparently they didn’t make enough noise because in that there’s no record
of that.
CR:
There’s not? Okay.
JJ:
I mean I was looking at some --
CR:
Probably it was intention.
JJ:
No, what I’m asking -- I guess what I’m trying to ask is, to you there was a big
congregation?
19
�CR:
I believe it was a big congregation. And there was weddings there. There was,
god let me see if I remember when I was a little girl. They used to have
communion there. The -- there was a lot of activities. But I guess it’s not --
JJ:
Well what kind of activities? I mean you said weddings and --
CR:
Weddings, parties, they would do Mother’s Day party [00:28:00] for Mother’s Day.
They would do an Easter party. Christmas. They would do Los Reyes.
JJ:
Los Reyes?
CR:
They would do Los Reyes.
JJ:
You mean the parranda?
CR:
(Spanish) [00:28:12]
JJ:
And you said that there was an Easter, right? Were you there that -- there was a
play I believe that they used to do.
CR:
They used to do the plays, but I don’t -- I remember them, but I just wasn’t real
involved. But like I said it was an activity where there was a lot of Puerto Ricans
there. There was a lot. So there was a lot, you know everybody spoke the same
language. The food was eaten. The people got together.
JJ:
And in fact, the Puerto Rican Congress was not that far away from Saint
Michael’s.
CR:
No it was like two miles.
JJ:
So that was like a center at that time for Puerto Ricans.
CR:
Right. The Congress which was on North Avenue there in Larrabee.
JJ:
And (inaudible) and all that, all the different vans and that. And the [polls?]
[00:29:00] you said that (inaudible).
20
�CR:
And the baseball leagues.
JJ:
What do you mean the baseball leagues?
CR:
You know there used to be baseball played at Lincoln Park. You know that we
had a lot of Puerto Rican not -- we did not play in Humboldt Park. We played -or my father had -- he was a manager of the baseball league. He played in
Lincoln Park. And the other park -- there was another park. Was it Garfield?
JJ:
On the southside?
CR:
On the southside -- the Puerto Ricans played there. And I remember there was a
riot. There was a riot that broke out -- a baseball riot. In Garfield Park.
JJ:
In Garfield Park?
CR:
Between the -- I don’t know what -- who it was, but I know it was Puerto Ricans
and maybe Black or was it White? I can’t remember. But I remember that riot.
And then there was Garfield. But not in -- Lincoln Park, we played baseball
there. So like North Avenue -- North Avenue and Lincoln Park. [00:30:00] North
Avenue and Lincoln Park.
JJ:
North Avenue and Lincoln Park by the VFW?
CR:
That you had to go walk over the bridge. They used to play baseball there.
JJ:
And a lot of people used to show up?
CR:
Oh my god it was -- and they used to sell food.
JJ:
What kind of food?
CR:
Well you know it was so funny because I was talking to my brother and my
brother was telling me that there used to be a hotdog stand or a food stand over
the bridge to -- you know when you had to go over the bridge, so it was Lake
21
�Shore Drive. So there used to be a little stand there and people would buy ice
cream, popcorn, and stuff. So this guy -- this Puerto Rican guy started making
sandwiches. And his business got so big, and my brother was telling me that he
just recently -- he interviewed him about how the business, how he made the
business. And he started making sandwiches. So people would buy sandwiches
from this guy, and he would sell it out of the trunk of his car. So that I remember.
I don’t remember it too clear, but I remember that we used to buy ice cream and
pop and hotdogs there. [00:31:00] But when this guy started making his own
sandwiches and people would come and get from him instead of getting it from
the park.
JJ:
And did they raise -- how did they raise money?
CR:
Well you had the beautiful baseball league, and I guess they had dues, and they
used to wear beautiful uniforms. I remember the uniforms. Beautiful outfits. And
when they had the leagues, and I believe there was leagues that would come
from Puerto Rico to play baseball there. I mean it was very popular. Very
popular.
JJ:
Were these well-organized?
CR:
Very well organized. Managers and everything. Because you had El Congreso
and you had El Puerto Boricua, so it was a big, big baseball leagues. And so
they played at Lincoln Park, and they played at Garfield Park.
JJ:
You don’t recall them playing at Humboldt park at that time?
CR:
No. That one I don’t remember. I remember Garfield and Lincoln. [00:32:00]
22
�JJ:
Now, they had -- did they also have any -- I know Saint Michael’s had an annual
fair. And do you recall that at all or? Like an annual fair, you know, with the
Ferris wheel and all that? You don’t recall.
CR:
No, I don’t remember that.
JJ:
Okay. The Puerto Rican Congress, were they not involved in the first parade or
something like that?
CR:
There was, but I wasn’t really part of it. And it could have been -- I remember the
queen. I remember there used to be a queen. There was a queen. I can’t
remember who it was, but she was.
__:
Carmen Cristia. Because (inaudible) and Carmen Cristia there was like a
discrepancy as to who was the real Puerto Rican queen.
JJ:
Carmen Cristia?
CR:
See I don’t remember that one. I remember --
JJ:
I recall the day we had to vote for the queen there at the Puerto Rican Congress.
CR:
Was it?
JJ:
Which is right there in Lincoln Park? I mean that’s something that’s kind
[00:33:00] of like where the first parades -- because at first there was a Festival
de San Juan all the way in 1953 at Holy Name Cathedral. At the (inaudible) at
the --
CR:
So I wasn’t here, I was still in Puerto Rico.
JJ:
But then the official Puerto Rican parade I think began through Saint Michael’s
and Puerto Rican Congress and some of the other --
CR:
Oh really? Okay.
23
�JJ:
That’s what I recall, I mean what I remember. But because I agree with you.
There was a very big community at --
CR:
Oh my god. Yes there was. I mean when you look back at all the, the V, I mean I
can name people I just remember --
JJ:
What people? Why don’t you tell me about them?
CR:
Okay. The Vélez, the Peñas, the Lugos, the Almestica, what else? Oh my god.
Pantoja, [00:34:00] because that was a big family on Larrabee. Big, big family.
JJ:
So when you say a big family, you’re not talking about the immediate family,
you’re saying the relatives.
CR:
The whole -- yes, it was relatives. Aunts, uncles, all of them all lived around each
other.
JJ:
So people were coming from Puerto Rico, not just one family but aunts, uncles
and everyone.
CR:
Brothers, sisters. And then the ones that were here would have gotten married
and, you know, started their own family.
JJ:
So is that not like some of the immigrant communities that come except that
Puerto Ricans were already citizens but.
CR:
Yes.
JJ:
But they were coming like immigrants?
CR:
Right because you know my family -- my mother took in or brought my uncle, my
aunt, two aunts and two uncles came from Puerto Rico when we came. And then
my uncle, I remember my uncle joined the service, he was in the army. And he
went through a really rough time, very racist. You know, he would tell us stories
24
�of things that happened to him, [00:35:00] and he came to live with us. So my
mother brought her two brothers and her two sisters to live with us. So you could
picture just all of us. And a cousin. Because I just remembered now, a cousin
too. So she brought her cousin, her two brothers and her two sisters to come
here. They worked, made money and some of them right now they live in Puerto
Rico. But when they were here, they lived with us for many years, and we all
lived together.
JJ:
In the same three room apartment?
CR:
No, that one was my uncle, my two uncles. But when we moved to Larrabee it
was my two aunts and my two uncles. They all lived -- and this one was a little
bigger. We had a three bedroom. It was a three bedroom, living room, dining
room, kitchen. Six rooms. So it was a lot bigger. So in like in one bedroom it
was me and my sister in one bed and my aunt, and my other aunt slept in
another bed. Then the room in the back, there was bunk beds, so my uncles
lived there with my brothers. [00:36:00] And then my mother and father slept in
the front. But that was a bigger apartment.
JJ:
And everyone -- was there -- did everyone get along pretty well or no?
CR:
It was a Puerto Rican community. We all got along. It was a beautiful
community. We had a rooster that the -- we -- I never forget that we lived next
door to this White -- it was a White family. And that rooster would wake up in the
morning and just, you know, crow. And they started complaining. We had
rabbits, chickens (chuckles) in the backyard. And they started complaining.
JJ:
No goats.
25
�CR:
No goats. It was chickens, it was rabbits. And they were in the back. And we
lived in a third floor. It was a third floor. We were living in a third floor. And the
Vélez lived on the second floor which I asked you Ricardo and what’s his name?
Because they part of --
JJ:
Victor.
CR:
Victor Vélez. [00:37:00] They lived in the second floor. And that was a family of
about ten. That was a -- that family, there was ten of them.
JJ:
This was Larrabee and North Avenue?
CR:
Larrabee and North Avenue. The Vélez lived in the second floor. We lived on
the third floor.
JJ:
And this was ’65, ’66?
CR:
It would have been ’65 through ’69 I’m going to say. And who else lived there
that I can remember? Oh my god. It’s another Puerto Rican family that lived
there. It was a big family. It was a lot of them. They lived on the other side of
Willow on Larrabee. They must have -- they must have owned, or not owned, but
they lived like in three different buildings. And it was a big family. Fabian, Fabian
and it’ll come to me, their last name. They lived there.
JJ:
So what was the common language or was it mixed or? [00:38:00]
CR:
No it was Spanish, Puerto Rican. Puerto Rican. And then I remember there
used -- a Black -- I remember a Black beauty shop moved like next door to us
and they used to you know, Black -- a Black barber shop. It was a barber shop; it
wasn’t a beauty shop. And I remember my mother took us there to fix our hair.
She put a relaxer on our hair. And the relaxer was very, very strong and messed
26
�up our hair. Because they processed -- it was a process they used this horrible
stuff on our hair. And I remember one day our hair fell out. Those were little
things that I remember. And then Blacks started moving in. And -JJ:
On North Ave?
CR:
On Larrabee. No, on Larrabee coming down Larrabee because you had the
projects there. I guess when those projects started deteriorating, people were
starting to move.
JJ:
Because you’re talking about Larrabee and then there’s Ogden coming in also.
[00:39:00]
CR:
Right but Ogden was -- there was some projects there and there was a school
there. Wasn’t there a school?
JJ:
Because we, you know, so there you had Chicago and Ogden and now there’s
North Avenue and Ogden. And now there’s Puerto Ricans there too. At the time.
CR:
Right.
JJ:
So there’s kind of like moving west and north at the same time. And then they -North Avenue was like -- would you say that was like a -- people kind of just
followed North Avenue, down?
CR:
Yeah. All of North Avenue like I said between Clark all the way maybe I could
say Ashland? That was all Puerto Ricans.
JJ:
So it didn’t go past Ashland at that time?
CR:
Well maybe it did, but I didn’t go that far. I didn’t go that far. It could have gone
past Damen for all I know. I think there was an Italian there.
27
�JJ:
Okay. Because you also had another barrio from Harrison and Halsted and
Jackson and that area there was also.
CR:
I remember that. I heard of families there, but I don’t -- I don’t know those
families. [00:40:00] I knew some and my mother and father would go visit them.
You know you would have the Puerto Rican parties.
JJ:
What was that?
CR:
The Puerto Rican parties where they would have lechón y pitorro. And so when I
was little, but I would go to these parties and everybody, you know, just have a
good time. Dance, eat, talk about old times. I just remember the women. Good
music. Good music. But I was little at that time so I can’t remember.
JJ:
Records (inaudible).
CR:
Records. It was records. There was no -- I don’t remember the TV too much. I
don’t think there was too much Spanish. But the old records, the 33 and all the
songs that would come out.
JJ:
Spanish songs or?
CR:
All Spanish songs.
JJ:
Were there any bands at that time, any Spanish bands that you can --
CR:
There was when we would go to the party at Congreso. The bands would come
and perform. And it was good music. Good music. [00:41:00] Good liquor. A lot
of dancing. People would dance and have a good time.
JJ:
Live music and --
CR:
Live music. Good dancing music.
JJ:
So now you’re in Saint Michael’s. No you’re in Waller.
28
�CR:
I’m -- yeah, so we -- we were going to Waller but then what happened was Urban
Renewal took over all of Larrabee. I guess they built the projects and then when
it was -- when it was our turn, we had to move. Because Urban Renewal, what
they were going to tear down and I don’t know what they were going to do. And
at that time my father decided to buy a house -- a building. And he got a building
at 1113 West Armitage. It was a three flat building. Three apartments in the
back, two in the front, with a storefront. This guy was going to [00:42:00] move to
Arizona and he wanted to sell that building. He sold that building to my parents
for $35,000. But before that -- before that, me and Carlos, when Carlos first
came from -- which is my brother, Carlos came from Puerto Rico. We were
outside playing on La Salle and Superior and Carlos had just come from Puerto
Rico. And we crossed the street and Carlos got hit by a car and I was there and
that was the shock of my life. I actually saw my brother get run -- practically get
run over by a car. He did not know any English at all. He suffered so much.
They put a cast on him from his chest all the way down to his leg. And we lived
in a third floor apartment. So it would take like seven men to bring this boy all the
way up to the third floor. And it was a horrible, horrible scene. [00:43:00] And
Carlos never came out good from that accident. But the man that hit him set up
a trust fund for Carlos, for our family and that’s how my mother and father were
able to buy that house on Armitage. Because they took the money out -- they
took some of the money out and put a down payment on that house. And that’s
where we ended up in Lincoln Park. And we were there like 30 years. Twentyfive, thirty years.
29
�JJ:
1100 that’s like Clifton and --
CR:
Between Clifton and Seminary. We were right in the middle. We were in the
middle.
JJ:
And so there were other apartments there. You rented some apartments there?
CR:
And my parents would -- we would keep the whole third floor and then the
second floor was rented, the front and back and the first floor was rented. And
then the storefront was rented. So I remember it was a secondhand store one
time. [00:44:00] It was a Puerto Rican family bought it for -- they played dominos
there. They would play -- it was like a club -- Puerto Ricans would hang out there
and stuff. And then I can’t remember what it was afterwards and stuff. And so
we ended up (break in audio). My mother used to make ends meet by taking in
foster kids. So through our house, we must have had like about 100 foster kids
come through our house. Because that’s what she would do. To make ends
meet, my mother would wash clothes, would iron clothes, would cook. I
remember the teachers that would come -- we would have teachers at Arnold.
Remember what Arnold? There used to be some Spanish teachers, and my
mother would cook for them. And at lunchtime they would come and eat at my
mother’s house and that’s how she would make ends meet.
JJ:
In the house. Not a restaurant.
CR:
No they -- my -- they would come to my mother’s house, and they would eat
lunch and my mother would cook. And that’s how she makes [00:45:00] ends
meet.
JJ:
Several people used to do that. My mother’s --
30
�CR:
She used to do that too?
JJ:
Cook in the house.
CR:
She used to cook in the house.
JJ:
But at Clark Street.
CR:
Okay she did it on Clark. My mother did it on Larrabee. And I remember Cruz?
What is Milli Santiago’s? -- Juan Cruz?
__:
Julio Cruz.
CR:
Julio Cruz was one of the people that would come and eat. Ruben Cruz, the
pastor and his sister. These are people that we know after --
JJ:
They were teachers at Arnold or?
CR:
They were teachers and people that worked -- that knew that my mother would
cook, and they would come out there and eat.
JJ:
I remember Ruben Cruz, yeah.
CR:
Ruben Cruz, remember Ruben?
JJ:
Had a TV program later. On Channel Seven.
CR:
Later on.
JJ:
So now you’re on Armitage. You’re away from Saint Michael’s right?
CR:
Yes. And we started going to Saint Teresa’s. So Saint Teresa was our church.
And we did -- I did catechism.
JJ:
How did that start? How did that start?
CR:
That one? There was a Puerto -- there was a mass [00:46:00] there. There was
a Spanish mass there and there was Puerto Ricans there. So you had Arroyo’s
Liquor Store, which was on the corner of Sheffield and Armitage. You had the
31
�discotheque. They used to sell records next door. Then you had Jay Neal’s.
Remember Jay Neal’s? And it was a cleaners. And then it was a store and then
you had Saint Teresa’s. And I remember the dances in Saint Teresa’s.
JJ:
Oh you’re saying, so you’re looking at from Sheffield to Kenmore, those
businesses that were there.
CR:
The businesses that were there but there was families living all the way on
Burling, Larrabee.
JJ:
They were going further --
CR:
So we’re going -- I’m going further east.
JJ:
But you’re more -- now you’re closer to --
CR:
But we’re closer to Racine. Racine and Armitage.
JJ:
So Armitage became a Puerto Rican street at that time.
CR:
At that time you had --
JJ:
Because you had North Avenue but now you get Armitage.
CR:
You had Armitage, so people were moving in. [00:47:00]
JJ:
So Puerto Ricans are moving north, as a group. As a --
CR:
Sheffield. On Halsted. Jay Neal’s -- no not Jay Neal’s. Shinnick’s. Remember
Shinnick’s the drugstore that was under the L Station? That was a German
drugstore and his -- his son ended up marrying the -- oh my god what was the
Puerto Rican family that moved there? Ivan Medina? The Medina sisters. They
ended up marrying one of the sons. And then the other son ended up marrying a
Mexican girl. Then you had the flower shop. Then there as a barber -- no barber
shop it was a barber shop. It was a -- the Medina, but it was a different Medina.
32
�They owned a barber shop right there on Bissell and Armitage. Remember the
barber shop?
JJ:
On Bissell and Armitage?
CR:
On Armitage.
JJ:
Yeah there was a barber shop there [00:48:00] I don’t recall the owner.
CR:
And on Halsted, do you remember the clinic? The Infant Welfare? That was a
Puerto Rican clinic. Everybody that was there went there.
JJ:
On Halsted?
CR:
On Halsted. So you had everybody that lived on Willow, on Burling, on Orchard.
All the way down past North Avenue, go to that clinic. That was a Puerto Rican -and that clinic did not start there. Remember the meat -- Gepperth’s? What
used to be Gepperth’s Meat Market? That was Infant Welfare, and they ended
up moving and then the Meat Market came in. I remember that one. So -- and
then you had a cleaners on the corner of Armitage and Halsted. It was a Cubanowned cleaners. And then, god all the -- then that’s where you had a lot of
Puerto Rican families living between Dickens [00:49:00] all the way past Willow,
past North Avenue up to Clybourn. And then that’s not counting Bissell, that’s not
counting Sheffield. You had Orchard. You had -- what was the other streets that
was around there-- it was all Puerto Ricans.
JJ:
So what percentage of the community was Puerto Rican what do you think?
CR:
I’m going to say it was past 50 percent. It was mostly. There was not -- I -- there
was more Blacks because you had Manierre School over there on Sheffield and
near Armitage. So Manierre or Sexton. I can’t remember --
33
�JJ:
Sexton.
CR:
It was Sexton. That was a Black -- and there was Blacks there and Puerto
Ricans. So I’m going to say 50 percent, or more was a Puerto Rican
neighborhood. All the stores were there. There was a Spanish store on
[00:50:00] Bissell. I forgot the name of that store.
JJ:
On Wisconsin you mean? By the bridge?
CR:
Under the RITA?
JJ:
By that yeah. Right near there.
CR:
There used to be --
JJ:
That the one you’re talking about? The Spanish one?
CR:
-- the grocery store.
JJ:
Right. The grocery store. And you still had Mario’s on Halsted and Willow.
(inaudible)
CR:
Okay.
JJ:
But now the Puerto Ricans are moving more toward Armitage and closer to Saint
Teresa’s. And lower, were there Caballeros de San Juan?
CR:
Not around there. It was mostly just Puerto Rican family like Clifton. All of
Clifton. So it was like from Armitage and Clifton past I’m going to say Fullerton
was all Puerto Ricans around there. There was a building on the corner of
Clifton and Armitage, that whole building was Puerto Rican. And then there used
to be a lemonade store across the street from that [00:51:00] big building.
Hedman was next door. There was big factory there, Hedman. Lot of Puerto
34
�Ricans in -- well lot of people. It was a mix. It was a lot of White, Black. It was a
factory.
JJ:
So there were factories around there at that time.
CR:
Yeah. Because you had the -- on Clybourn there you had that frame place, I’m
trying to remember the name of the frame -- they used to make frames, picture
frames. Lot of Puerto Ricans worked there. And then you had Hedman. You
had, I don’t know what was the -- it was all factories.
__:
Oscar Mayer wasn’t that around there too?
CR:
Right. Oscar Mayer was on --
JJ:
On Sedgwick, my father went there.
CR:
The Oscar Mayers, the -- but no Oscar Mayer was --
JJ:
It was on Sedgwick. It was more on Sedgwick.
CR:
It was more on Sedgwick, but that -- yeah, I remember that one too.
JJ:
My father worked in the area for many years.
CR:
But then we had Oscar Mayer School that was on Clifton and --
JJ:
The Oscar Mayer School, yeah.
CR:
-- and Dickens. Clifton and --
JJ:
Is that what you’re saying Oscar Mayer school?
CR:
Or the factory. I remember the factory. I don’t remember working there.
[00:52:00] I remember that was a big place. But I’m talking about the school,
Oscar Mayer.
JJ:
But that had changed because that wasn’t like that all the time but when you
were there it was Puerto Rican.
35
�CR:
It was Puerto Rican.
JJ:
So it had already --
CR:
All of Racine, Puerto Rican.
JJ:
It had already turned Puerto Rican when it had -- before they had -- there were
other ethnic minorities that were living there?
CR:
There was, but we just hung around -- you know, there was Whites, there was
Blacks, but it was mostly Puerto Ricans. We knew all the Puerto Ricans.
JJ:
When you got there.
CR:
Yes.
JJ:
To that section. Okay now did Saint Teresa’s have any activities or anything like
that?
CR:
Saint Teresa had a Spanish service.
JJ:
Like Saint Michael’s had, did Saint Teresa’s do that?
CR:
Saint Teresa’s had that. There was dances down in the basement. The school,
we didn’t get to go to Saint Teresa’s school because we couldn’t afford it so.
JJ:
Down in the basement was there -- was the mass in the regular chapel or in the -
CR:
It was a regular church. It was a mass in the -- and then they would have coffee
[00:53:00] and donuts in the rector-- not in the rectory, in the hall that was next
door to the church. So it would have been Bissell. No, not Bissell. What was
that?
JJ:
Kenmore. Kenmore.
CR:
Kenmore.
36
�JJ:
Okay so now did you have any activities at that --
CR:
It was dances and it was weddings, baptismals.
JJ:
Now I remember --
CR:
The clinic.
JJ:
-- going to dances there. So you had some core -- hardcore youth going there,
who were also there. I mean they -- besides the baptisms and the other. They
were actually working with the youth at that time.
CR:
Yeah, yeah.
JJ:
The Puerto Ricans that were at that church. So they were providing services for
the youth at that time.
CR:
There was a lot of Puerto Ricans.
JJ:
Or do you recall --
CR:
I remember some of the activities, but we did not go to Saint Teresa’s. We just
would go to church on Sunday. I did my confirmation [00:54:00] there.
JJ:
That’s right because you were being sheltered in your house, is that --
CR:
Yeah, you know, my mother would not let the girls out.
JJ:
So what did the girls do -- they’re sheltered in their house?
CR:
The boys got to go out, but the Puerto Rican mothers would keep their daughters
in the house.
JJ:
So what did the daughters do when they were at the house?
CR:
We would watch TV, hang out. We could play in front of the house because we
lived -- here was our house and it was a big parking lot which was part of
Hedman’s parking lot. So it would be like -- I’m gonna say 20 car parking space.
37
�So we would play outside while when the cars were not there. After the cars left
we would play outside. So that was it, play.
JJ:
Okay.
CR:
It’s a dog. Dog. Dog. I think he’s --
JJ:
Oh, okay. [00:55:00] So what -- after -- you moved from there, when did you
move from there to Lincoln Park?
CR:
In the -- I’m going to say, my parents ended up moving but so we were there from
’65 to maybe in the ’80s.
JJ:
Okay you were there ’65 to the ’80s, so during that time, 1968, ’69, when the
Young Lords came there. What did you think about that?
CR:
Oh my god. I remember the Young Lords. They took over the church on Bissell
and Armitage. So I really couldn’t hang out with them.
JJ:
Dayton and Armitage.
CR:
Dayton and Armitage. Okay so it was Dayton and Bissell, Halsted. And I just
used to hang out with them. But I wasn’t really part of the Young Lords. I just
used to do the activities with them. So I remember that they -- you -- the Young
Lords took over the church. And I remember going to City Hall [00:56:00] and I
remember there was I guess there was some argument or fraction going on in
City Hall. And we ended up going back to the church. I remember the pastor
there that was killed.
JJ:
Reverand Bruce Johnson.
CR:
Bruce.
JJ:
And what -- what was the community saying at that time when he was killed?
38
�CR:
That he was murdered. And they said he was murdered by the CIA. That was
the word out there that he was murdered by the police. He was murdered.
JJ:
They didn’t blame it on the Young Lords?
CR:
No. He was helping the Young Lords, that’s what I heard. And that’s why they
killed him. And then I remember the breakfast. There was a breakfast that we
started. I remember the Black Panther party coming down and telling us how to
run the programs. Because they were running the programs in California or LA.
And we did that. And then we ended up opening up the clinic at Saint Teresa’s.
JJ:
So you worked in the breakfast for --
CR:
I worked in the breakfast. I’m --
JJ:
What was that like?
CR:
That was beautiful. [00:57:00] That was beautiful. We used to make really good
breakfast for these kids. They loved it. So we had all the kids in the
neighborhood would come there. We even -- and had it set up where the kids
got to eat a very good, hearty breakfast. And then we opened up the clinic. And
that’s where I met Omar and [Abba?] López and the doctor. There was a doctor
that came from Denver. Do you remember the -- there was a guy that was a
doctor.
JJ:
Alberto [Chamino?] was a medical student, but you had Doctor Jack Johns was
kind of the director of the --
CR:
The clinic.
JJ:
-- the clinic.
CR:
Okay so I wasn’t too involved with that.
39
�JJ:
And some other, and some other --
CR:
Nurses and assistants.
JJ:
Yeah, they were voluntary -- not volunteer doctors, but volunteer --
CR:
So I did mostly the breakfast, not the clinic.
JJ:
But it was in the same location. Were there people from the community coming
in?
CR:
Well the clinic -- the clinic was at Saint Teresa’s, I remember. The breakfast -[00:58:00]
JJ:
You were right. They moved later to Saint Teresa’s.
CR:
Okay.
JJ:
It started at the church --
CR:
It started at the church okay. So I remember going --
JJ:
Because (inaudible) years later.
CR:
And the breakfast was done at the church. I mean not at the church on Bissell. I
remember the breakfast so.
JJ:
And so what other things do you remember? Do you recall -- were you at the
church when Manny Ramos -- when we had that funeral or no?
CR:
No.
JJ:
Okay.
CR:
No, I heard about it. But I wasn’t there. And I believe there was some other
shootings that took place on Damen? Damen and Division? The riots. And
some other stuff that was going on, but I did not participate in that.
40
�JJ:
I think the riots were earlier and there was a riot at that time in the [community?]
But it was not Young Lord --
CR:
No, no, that wasn’t. You just heard about it, you know. As a Puerto Rican
community you would hear about all that stuff that was going on. But we were
very sheltered. [00:59:00] My mother --
JJ:
That was my (inaudible) years.
CR:
You don’t remember because they didn’t let us go out. We would not go out.
She let the boys go out but not the girls.
JJ:
Did it have an impact, some of the work that was being done -- what I mean, did
it affect the community at all? Not everyone was for the Young Lords.
CR:
No, they weren’t. But everyone knew the Young Lords and I’m not going to lie,
some people would say that you know you guys were a bunch of thugs and
gangbangers and stuff. And then you had some that did very good work. So it
was a mixed reaction, you know? So.
JJ:
Well because actually the Young Lords were thugs before. They weren’t --
CR:
And you guys used to hang out on Sheffield under the L station. And there used
to be a liquor store there.
JJ:
So that didn’t help their image later that everybody was drunk.
CR:
Everybody used to drink and smoke pot and hang out, right? [01:00:00] That
was a good times. Good times. And then, you know, when the Young Lords
started organizing then that was a different era there then.
JJ:
What about McCormick Seminary that had you --
41
�CR:
Now, I remember McCormick Seminary because I knew there was a takeover,
and I don’t remember a lot. I know there was a takeover, but I can’t -- I was there
but I don’t remember.
JJ:
You were there in the community.
CR:
I just -- I was there as a supporter. But like --
JJ:
Like inside or outside?
CR:
We were -- there was a sit-in inside. So they --
JJ:
And you went inside?
CR:
Yeah.
JJ:
What do you -- do you remember anything?
CR:
I just remember going with the crowd. That was it.
JJ:
Okay. Was there a good-sized crowd or?
CR:
It was a pretty big crowd. It was a pretty big crowd. And I remember some of the
leaders if you think back of all the leaders that were there. I cannot remember all
of them, but the Young Lords were very instrumental and there were some other
people there and [01:01:00] -- but I can’t -- I wasn’t -- I didn’t stay around. I
couldn’t. I just was part of -- I think there was a march. I remember the march.
And that was about it.
JJ:
Okay now after that, the neighborhood continued to change. And then what did
you get involved with after that?
CR:
Well, you know, after the neighborhood started changing people started moving
out. I remember the one family that lived right next door on Dickens. Remember
the Polish -- there used to be a Polish stand there. Oh I remember -- let me tell
42
�you what I remember clearly. When Martin Luther King got killed, we were at
Waller. We were at Waller. And we -- there was no Latino representation in that
school and so one day we just got together, and all the Puerto Ricans walked
out. The Puerto Ricans walked out. This was a school that wasn’t very friendly
to the Puerto Ricans [01:02:00] that were there. They never would push the
Puerto Ricans to excel. When it was time for college graduation they would tell
us, “Go to a city college or get married.” Or a lot of them worked in factories
which to this day, these -- a lot of these people retired from these factories that
worked -- that used to -- that they started working there when they were in high
school. And so I remember walking out because we wanted some constants.
We wanted teachers and the whole Puerto Rican -- all the high school kids that
were there, we marched out and stood in front of the school. And then I guess
they settled the differences and that’s where we started getting some Spanish
teachers there. I remember the riots. I remember when Martin Luther King got
killed.
JJ:
So who organized this?
CR:
This was like a group of us. It was me and I can’t remember. It was some other
people. We just -- a group of Puerto Ricans had just got together, and we just
wanted some representation there.
JJ:
And this was in 1968?
CR:
It would have been ’67, [01:03:00] ’68. And there was a lot of Puerto Ricans
there.
JJ:
So this was before the Young Lords --
43
�CR:
Yes.
JJ:
-- that you were doing this. So the community actually was already -- there was
act-- people that were activists.
CR:
Right they were active. Because we wanted -- Arnold, Arnold was a Puerto
Rican School. I didn’t go to Arnold. I did not end up -- my brother ended up
going to Arnold. It was a big graduation but again we were moved into Waller
and there was no Latino representation. And the education wasn’t the greatest.
And if you did not -- and the kids would hang out. A lot of them would hang out in
front of the school. I mean they were good years. They were good years. But
when you look back at all the young Latinos that were there, the Puerto Ricans
that were there, not a lot of them went to college. Because they never pushed
college for us. They would just not recommend college for us. My mother that -my mother only went to school until the second grade. She made sure that we
went to college. So me and my sister, we ended up going -- after we [01:04:00]
graduated from high school, by ourselves -- we took it upon ourselves, my sister
ended up going to Northeastern. I ended up going to Loop College. That time it
was Loop College. So there wasn’t anybody there to kind of push us along to
attend University of Chicago or anything.
JJ:
And this was because there were no teachers that were --
CR:
There was no representation for us. Even though it was a Puerto Rican
community, there was a lot of Latinos there. The representation wasn’t there. So
we suffered. There was a lot of suffering going on. The repre-- you know, it’s not
like now. So that -- we learned to survive. That was survival in the community.
44
�JJ:
And then you said that there was a Martin Luther King got killed and what
happened?
CR:
When Martin Luther King got murdered, the riots that broke out -- all the Black
kids, because Waller was a school that was Black, White, Puerto Rican. It was a
mixed school. And I never forget, and we had kids from Cooley, [01:05:00]
Cooley High. There was kids because when the Cabrini came, they divided.
Some of the blocks went to Cooley and some of the blocks went to Waller. So
they would have to come down Larrabee to go to Waller. So when this riot took
place, I will never forget every Black kid was beating up anything that was White.
And I remember me and my brother -- my sister, it was me and my sister. We
were trying to defend everyone. No, no, don’t hit her. No don’t hit her. But the
riots just spread out past Halsted and Armitage. It went all the way down to
Sheffield. Breaking of windows, just Oz Park. You remember Oz Park? That
used to be DePaul. DePaul was there. The center. There was a center there.
But those were not very good times.
JJ:
By Webster and --
CR:
Yeah, Webster and Dickens? I remember the Young Lords took over that park.
Because you guys wanted --
JJ:
People’s Park. [01:06:00]
CR:
And it was People’s Park for a couple of years, right? A year and stuff. So, I
don’t -- that one I just remember at that time I started --
JJ:
We actually took over the -- they had tore down the buildings that Puerto Ricans
used to live on -- between Armitage and Dickens by Halsted next to Oz Park.
45
�CR:
Right and left it (break in audio).
JJ:
About 350 people took it over.
CR:
See, that one I wasn’t part of, but I heard about it and stuff.
JJ:
But it was going on in the community and people were I guess talking about it
because it was from there.
CR:
That’s why, you know, to this day I tell people Lincoln Park was a community
when the Puerto Ricans were there. We had a community. You know you heard
the music, the eating, the getting along with everyone. Now it’s not a community.
Maybe to some other people, but when we were there it was a community.
Everybody knew each other. Everybody talked to each other. [01:07:00] And it
wasn’t like a lot of violence, and you go now there, and you feel so out of place.
JJ:
But there were a lot of a different clubs -- street clubs but there was not a lot -- a
lot of violence?
CR:
I didn’t think it was that much violence.
JJ:
No, I agree with you there wasn’t a lot of violence but there were all these street
clubs.
CR:
Right you had -- there used to be a boy’s club. What was the name of that boy’s
club on Sheffield? Sheffield? That the school -- the Manierre -- there was a
school there on Sheffield.
JJ:
There was Boy’s Club on Orchard.
CR:
On Orchard but then there was another club right there on Sheffield before you
get to --
JJ:
By Armitage what was that? The Puerto Rican Youth Center or something.
46
�CR:
It was a youth center. C -- Chicago Youth Center. Then you had -- yeah, there
was more places for the kids to hang out. Places -- [01:08:00]
JJ:
There was all kinds of -- there was several places. At nighttime Arnold wasn’t
open --
CR:
Right it was open to the community, and you had the field it was open.
JJ:
So they were like an afterschool programs for the youth so that’s why --
CR:
You had DePaul and there was a lot of activities there at DePaul. Where the
childcare center --
JJ:
(inaudible) for the youth. So there was a lot youth. And that prevented the
violence.
CR:
Now that’s what we need to go back to. But -- and it was a good times, it was
good times. You know, there was -- I’m not gonna say there was no violence, but
it was not -- it was a clean cut violence. That it wasn’t like now.
JJ:
So in other words, once the neighborhood was stable and there was a
community, the violence dropped. Is that what? Am I putting words in your
mouth?
CR:
I didn’t see -- I mean there was gangs. I’m not gonna say that there wasn’t.
There was gangs and you heard of the guys hanging out on Sheffield [01:09:00]
and so you knew who the -- do you remember Andre Gonzalez? -- Andre and his
brother Richie and that whole family died too. The only one living is his sister.
They all ended up dying of AIDS or heroin overdose. The Rodriguez family.
They used to hang around there. Johnny and Danny ended up dying of AIDS.
JJ:
Because actually there was a drug epidemic there.
47
�CR:
The heroin. And the Rodriguez, oh my god. There was so many guys that
ended up --
JJ:
Many Young Lords fell into that.
CR:
Yep, and then you had the Vietnam War. A lot of them went off to the Vietnam
War and came back very messed up. I remember that. I remember all the guys
from --
JJ:
And then the whole hippie era was around that time too. But it was a -- but then
the -- but you’re saying the community -- but the community was different, but it
was also beginning to -- people were beginning to be displaced and --
CR:
Yes they were because [01:10:00] I remember the family that I talk about that
owned this beautiful property on Halsted and Dickens, they ended up losing it
because they couldn’t afford it. And all the people down Halsted, a lot of them
lost their property. A lot of them stayed but a lot of them lost their property.
JJ:
How did they lose their property?
CR:
They couldn’t afford it. Everything was --
JJ:
But they were affording it before.
CR:
They were but for some reason I guess it was a time that the prices were starting
to go up and they could not keep up. Something happened that started
displacing the families. And then you had DePaul come in. I remember when
DePaul came in.
JJ:
What happened then?
CR:
DePaul displaced a lot of families. They started buying all the property around
the neighborhood and everything started going up, up, up. And it wasn’t the
48
�same. It wasn’t the same. And I didn’t feel that because at that time [01:11:00] I
had left that neighborhood, and my parents stayed there. And I ended up moving
to -- I was on Leavitt and Armitage. And at that time I got pregnant, and I was
living there. So I didn’t get to see but they changed a lot of the Puerto Rican
families that owned property -- a few stayed, like you had the Arroyo family. They
kept their property. They kept their houses. I remember the Rodriguez family
kept their houses. And to this day I believe there’s maybe a couple of Puerto
Ricans and Mexicans that own property. I don’t know if they still own it, but they
do live there.
JJ:
Was there any pressure by the city at all, by like building inspectors or anybody
like that?
CR:
It could have been. I wasn’t --
JJ:
But you’re not aware.
CR:
It could have been. And they couldn’t keep up.
JJ:
Was there a plan to displace people?
CR:
I believe there was. I believe wasn’t that the Title 20. Was that the name of the
plan to displace [01:12:00] all these people? I believe that the plan --
__:
Chicago 21?
CR:
It was Chicago 21 or 20. I remember the plan was build those Cabrini projects.
But then let them deteriorate. Because those projects deteriorated very quick.
JJ:
So they let them deteriorate.
CR:
They let them deteriorate.
JJ:
What do you mean?
49
�CR:
Elevators would break. They wouldn’t replace them. You started seeing people
hanging around. And then I believe that was the scene of the heroin time. And
you know people were shooting up and selling drugs and liquor stores started
coming up. And that deteriorated.
JJ:
So you’re saying they let it -- the police and everything --
CR:
I believe they did.
JJ:
Let it deteriorate. Why would they do that?
CR:
Because probably it was -- were they looking at the plan that that was going to be
prime property? I believe they looked into the future. That was only a temporary
plan. I mean some of the row houses stayed. I remember Montgomery Ward’s.
And what is Mongomery Ward’s now? Condos. Condos. [01:13:00] People live
there. That used to be one of the stores that people used to shop there. That
was like -- that was Larrabee and Chicago Avenue. The building’s still there, they
just restructured it to be very expensive homes. You got a police station there
now. What used to be the projects is now a big police station on Division and
Larrabee. And then all the projects started going down until people couldn’t live
there anymore. Then the floors started -- people only lived like the first eight
floor. Everything else was shut down. Crime. Till it just disappeared.
JJ:
So that police station is the old Chicago Avenue police station?
CR:
I don’t know if that was the same one.
JJ:
But they have a police station there.
CR:
But they have a police station right where --
JJ:
Where the Cabrini-Green used to be. And now there’s condominiums there.
50
�CR:
No, it’s open land because they tore them down. The last project to be torn
[01:14:00] down was the projects that was on Halsted and Division. That was the
last family to move out of there, the last family to go. And I believe it was a
couple of years ago or last year.
JJ:
And what was the reasoning to tear down those?
CR:
I remember somebody said that having people living on top of each other would
thus create like rats. If you put them all on top of each other they don’t grow,
they don’t thrive. And that was not a good setting. So why build them in the first
place?
JJ:
Concentrated poverty basically.
CR:
And that’s what happened.
JJ:
So now where is the poverty concentrated?
CR:
Where did they go?
JJ:
Yeah where did they go to now?
CR:
Well now I guess they were -- you know what, I don’t remember.
JJ:
Is it concentrated or no that’s not happening?
CR:
Now we’re scattered back to -- I think we’re scattered in the projects; I mean in
the suburbs. You know like scattered site. And then you had Altgeld [01:15:00]
projects over there. They started moving people around. And then there was a
lot of Blacks that lived in the row houses. And I believe there’s still some row
houses left on Chicago and what’s that -- Chicago and --
JJ:
Orleans.
51
�CR:
Orleans and stuff. There’s still some projects there. But the big ones that were
on Larrabee and Division and yeah, Division and Halsted, Division and Larrabee
and Chicago and Division and Sedgwick. They’re all torn down. The school,
Immaculate -- is it Immaculate Conception? That church is still there. I
remember there’s a -- what is the health clinic that’s there? Winfield Moody?
Winfield Moody is still there. So that’s some of the new buildings that came up.
But there’s no more projects at all. [01:16:00]
JJ:
So you came out of Lincoln Park. What are you doing today in terms of
community?
CR:
When I left Lincoln Park, my parents were still living there. I ended up moving
out and had a rough life. Ended up getting pregnant at 19 and I lived with a -- my
baby’s father for I don’t know how long. He was abusive. He was a drug addict.
He died of AIDS -- ended up dying of AIDS from shooting up. And I ended up
coming back home and I moved back on Armitage in my parent’s building and
then I ended up moving to Orchard and North Avenue. And then from there, I
just kind of moved out of the neighborhood. And now, I work for the state. I work
-- I’ve been working 25 years at the Illinois Department of Human Services. I
work with [01:17:00] pregnant teens, I do outreach, whatever. And that’s my job.
JJ:
But you also do volunteer work and --
CR:
I’m currently at San Lucas United Church of Christ which is a Puerto Rican
community. Or it is a Puerto Rican -- it’s changing. The same thing I -- I always
tell people the same thing that happened --
JJ:
Across the street from Humboldt Park.
52
�CR:
Across the street from Humboldt Park but I remember at -- the same thing that
happened in Lincoln Park, it’s happening here. Because we’re right in the heart
of Humboldt Park and you’re seeing gentrification. We were gentrified out of
Lincoln Park. Now I can probably say that my parents had brought a building,
and I can probably say before that I would say my parents never got on welfare.
My mother was a hardworking woman, and my father worked all his life. So, you
know, they brought the house because of Carlos’s accident. It was a tragic that
the accident happened, but we managed to get this beautiful building. And they
ended up buying another building in Wicker Park. So when we moved out
[01:18:00] of Armitage, and it wasn’t because I think my father and mother were
getting older and we were living in a third floor. And it was harder for them. They
were getting -- they couldn’t be going up and down the stairs. They got a good
price for that building. They got very good money for that building. And they
were not -- they were a typical Puerto Rican family that the families lived there all
their life. And all my father wanted was enough to pay the mortgage. So these
families lived there 15, 20 years with my par-- you know, in the building there.
And then when my parents sold, they ended up moving to Winchester and
Division. That was a Puerto Rican neighborhood there. But they moved to a first
floor and then they’ve been there ever since. So it wasn’t -- and it was a good
life. It was a good life. And they worked very hard to get, you know, to get what
they have now. They worked very hard. They struggle but they -- and they
raised six kids and a whole bunch of [01:19:00] foster kids were raised in that
neighborhood. We had a lot of foster kids just coming out -- in and out, in and
53
�out. Some stayed with us three, four years. The rest of them stayed 15 years
with us. They ended up getting married and leaving the house.
JJ:
Your mother was working for foster --
CR:
She just took in emergency foster. We were emergency foster care site. So any
foster kid that was pulled out of their home, they would be sent to our house. So
that’s why we always had the whole third floor. Because there was always kids in
the house. But she made her living taking care of foster kids. So, you know, we
were not -- we -- they did a pretty good life. So I’m at San Lucas, I sometimes
see some of the people I went to school with.
JJ:
What’s your role here? What do you mean --
CR:
Here I’m the Council President and a member of San Lucas and this is a Puerto
Rican church. The founder of this church is the Reverand Jorge Morales. There
was a lot of riots going on around here, a lot of fighting going on in the
community. [01:20:00] A lot of struggle. And I just happened to walk into all that.
And gentrification has taken place in Humboldt Park. It’s sad, but this used to be
a Puerto Rican neighborhood also. And I’m not going to say it is anymore.
There is still Latinos, but it’s not like it used to be.
JJ:
Is the church involved in any activities here? What are some of those?
CR:
We were at one time regarding housing and jobs and there was a lot of -- the first
Black mayor did a lot of campaigning here.
JJ:
You’re talking about Harold Washington.
54
�CR:
Harold Washington. The pastor here was very involved in a lot of social justice
issues and housing taking place and all that. So I guess it just comes with the
territory.
JJ:
Weren’t you connected also with the -- what was your connection with the West
Town Concerned Citizens’ Coalition?
CR:
You know, that one I really wasn’t. I heard about it [01:21:00] because I had
moved in. There was other people that was involved. When I came in here, the
pastor that was here and the assistant pastor that was here, they were involved
in that. I kind of walked into a lot of stuff. So, I remember.
JJ:
But some of the programs that you recently were doing or you’re not doing them
now, but didn’t you have like a food pantry or something?
CR:
Oh no here we had Centro Unida Latina which was an afterschool program that
was started out of this church which they did. It was after school programming.
What they’re doing now, we used to do that years ago. Had the kids here. We
had 60 to 80 kids here. Teach them dancing, teach them how to do rumba,
plena, arts, crafts. We used to just do a lot of things with the kids. It was a safe
haven. This church had a place which was a safe haven for the community kids.
JJ:
And now I see BUILD, Incorporated. Did they use the facility?
CR:
This is -- BUILD works here. I mean, they’re housed here so we can have an
afterschool program.
JJ:
A gang prevention program?
CR:
It’s a gang prevention [01:22:00] but we have an afterschool program. There was
some monies that was at one time with all the violence going around, they
55
�opened up funding for teen reach afterschool programming. So there’s a
program here that’s from after school until six, seven o’ clock at night to keep the
kids off the street. So the program has been here over eight years or longer. So
these kids come here. They do homework, life skills, safe haven in the church.
JJ:
And I believe Carlos or other people are involved in something.
CR:
Yeah, we have a writing class here. My brother is part of --
JJ:
How does that work?
CR:
That one is people that want to write about their life or their past or their life.
There’s a writing class that takes place here on Wednesdays. So they come
together, and they share their stories, and they print some of their stories. And
we had a food pantry here. We have an emergency food; we have a thrift store.
We serve a hot meal. And the community, it’s changing. You’re seeing Blacks,
Hispanic, [01:23:00] and immigrant being serviced in this community. So that’s
now Humboldt Park.
JJ:
Any final thoughts?
CR:
Final thoughts about the Puerto Ricans in Chicago. I never -- I mean I’m just
saying that we -- I had some good memories of Armitage. I had good memories - no, I’m not gonna say they were good memories, but they were memorable
memories. Because you had -- you know we used to know so many people.
Now you look back and it’s -- when we were growing up, it was a community.
Now it is not the same. It is not the same. It’s sad, but those were good times
when we were more together. We, you know, our battles were fought together.
Now everybody’s so dispersed. But at one time the community was great, and
56
�we took care of each other. You know like the saying was it takes a village to
raise a child. That used to happen. [01:24:00] Families would take care of each
other. Now, no it’s not the same. And it’s sad because a lot of our kids do not
know what it is to be in a family like we did. I don’t know. I’m just saying a lot of
these kids don’t have the same -- the same opportunities that we had. We had
nothing but we were more together. We didn’t have a lot. I’m not gonna say we
didn’t have nothing. We didn’t have a lot but there was more family involvement
and there was more strength.
JJ:
Why do you think that that was going on?
CR:
I don’t know it’s the changing -- I think it’s changing when you see a lot of these
young mothers, teen pregnancy has skyrocket. And even if it was teen
pregnancy at our time, the girls were not as crazy and wild as they are now. And
family structure has just fallen apart. So we don’t have that family structure that
we had when we were growing up. We just don’t have it. It’s not there. You
know, if you try to reprimand [01:25:00] a family member, right away they’ll call
DCFS. At that time, you know, if they saw you doing anything in the street, they’d
say, you know what? We would get reprimanded. My mother wouldn’t fight it
and say, “You don’t touch my daughter. You don’t do this.” But we would listen,
or they’ll go and tell you father or anything. You know it was more family-oriented
and the families were more together, and they would protect each other. Now,
not now. It’s very sad. It’s not the same. So I have good memories of growing
up. We had nothing, but it was good ones. What we didn’t have, you know, was
just made up with the surroundings that we were with.
57
�JJ:
Okay.
CR:
Thank you.
JJ:
You said you lived on La Salle; do you remember what address or on La Salle?
CR:
Oh my god it was right on the corner building of La Salle and Superior. La Salle
and Superior. [01:26:00] The corner there was a -- we were on the third floor.
JJ:
That wasn’t the Water Hotel wasn’t it or?
CR:
No it was a three flat.
JJ:
It was a three flat.
CR:
It was a three flat building, and we lived in the third floor. And then from there we
moved to Armitage and Armitage was 1114 West Armitage.
JJ:
What do you remember of that building? That three flat? That neighborhood?
Do you remember anything? You were like five years old.
CR:
I was five.
JJ:
So what do you remember of that?
CR:
Oh my god. La Salle was a busy street. I don’t know if you remember my
brother Carlos Flores, but Carlos came to live with us when Carlos was like 13
and I remember, I will never forget that me and Carlos were crossing the street
on Chicago Avenue. No, we were on La Salle and Superior and we crossed this
busy intersection and Carlos got hit by a car. And I was there. And I saw the
whole incident when that car just smashed into him [01:27:00] and blew him up in
the air and brought him back down. And Carlos was in the hospital for about a
year. But we did not speak any English, so we suffered a lot. We came in the
58
�middle of winter, and I think Carlos ended up coming in the middle of summer like
a couple of years later.
JJ:
Do you know what year that was about or?
CR:
Oh god. I’m going to say maybe ’59, ’60? I want to say. Because I was five
when I came here so we were living --
JJ:
When you were born in ’51 you said.
CR:
In ’51.
JJ:
So ’56?
CR:
’56, ’57 like that. And then Carlos came maybe like a couple of years later and
that’s, you know, and that’s the only thing that I remember. I mean and it was just
a bad scene because we didn’t speak English, and it was just horrible. There
was no bilingual education in school. We came in the middle of winter.
JJ:
What school was that?
CR:
We went to Ogden. First no -- first it was Sexton. Sexton was an all-Black
school. [01:28:00] My -- we would get beat up by the Black kids.
JJ:
Sexton in Lincoln Park?
CR:
No, Sexton around what Cabrini what used to be Cabrini was Sexton school was
on Franklin I think and we were going to school there. And then my mother
moved us out of that school and put us in a school called Ogden. And Ogden
now is a, you know, big, big school. And that was on Clark, Clark and I can’t
remember. It was Clark and Orleans or something? And then from there, then
that’s when we ended up moving on Larrabee and I went to a school called La
59
�Salle. And then from that area then we ended up moving to Armitage where I
ended up going to Waller which is now Lincoln Park.
JJ:
Now La Salle was around Willow or something? And Sedgwick?
CR:
No, no, no. Newberry. We went to Newberry. La Salle was on Sedgwick and --
JJ:
And Willow right?
CR:
And Willow (inaudible). So I know when we got to Lincoln Park, we were -- I was
going to Newberry. [01:29:00]
JJ:
And before you get to Lincoln Park, you’re going to Ogden School, you’re living
on Superior and Chicago -- and La Salle.
CR:
No, Superior and La Salle.
JJ:
And La Salle, okay. And there was -- do you remember that community there?
Were there --
CR:
There was a lot of Latinos, a lot of Puerto Ricans. They were starting to come.
There was a Puerto Rican beautician downstairs. Her name was Clara. Clara
Byron.
JJ:
Clara Byron?
CR:
Byron. She lived -- she had a -- a beauty shop on the first floor on the corner.
JJ:
Where you lived?
CR:
Where we lived at.
JJ:
Right on Superior.
CR:
Superior and La Salle.
JJ:
And then across the street was the Catholic Charities or?
60
�CR:
No, it was -- there was a florist and then it was -- but that time it wasn’t Catholic
Charities. It was something else.
JJ:
I think that florist is still there.
CR:
That florist is still there?
JJ:
I think so. I’m not sure.
CR:
And it used to be -- what used -- across the street was a big building. It’s Cath-it was Catholic Charities, but it wasn’t Catholic Charities at that time.
JJ:
Then, at that time.
CR:
I can’t remember what it was. It was a big building. [01:30:00] It was --
JJ:
Then you had the Water Hotel where we lived. We lived in the Water Hotel.
CR:
Where was your Water Hotel?
JJ:
Right there across from Superior and La Salle. Right there on the other side.
We were on the other side.
CR:
Oh, okay. See I don’t remember. I was only five, six years old then you know.
JJ:
So you were going to Ogden School and then you went to another school near
Cabrini-Green?
CR:
Right because then my parents ended up moving to 1714 North Larrabee which
was Larrabee and Cleveland. And we went to Saint Michael’s church and that
was a Puerto Rican neighborhood then, you know, on Larrabee. And we lived in
the third floor of a three flat with the storefront in the front. And we went to -- do
you remember the boys club that was there? The boys club that was on Willow?
Willow and Mohawk? Orchard. Orchard and Willow. And then across the street
[01:31:00] was Newberry.
61
�JJ:
Newberry School. Kitty-corner to that. Kitty-corner. So what do you remember
of the boys club? I know what the guys remember but what did the girls do?
CR:
Oh the girls just hung out I guess in the boys club. They used to have a
swimming pool. We used to do activities there. And I think --
JJ:
What kind of activities?
CR:
Like there was dances and there was arts and crafts. But I know that -- my
Carlos was more involved. They used to have a club there. The Continentals.
JJ:
The Continentals were there.
CR:
Yeah the Continentals and there but Carlos was part of that. We didn’t. We just
hung out. We were just young kids.
JJ:
So the girls -- the guys had the Continentals and the girls they just went to the --
CR:
Like we would go to the dances maybe, hang out.
JJ:
And who would throw the dances?
CR:
There was -- there was a group of Latinos. I can’t remember who threw the
dances.
JJ:
But you remember it as a Latino community?
CR:
Puerto Rican.
JJ:
A Puerto Rican community [01:32:00] at that time.
CR:
Yes.
JJ:
Okay so then you’re there in -- and you also, you said you went to by Franklin?
What was on Franklin?
CR:
No, we went to Sexton School. It was the Black school. And you remember
Black kids would beat us up.
62
�JJ:
Sexton is on Sheffield.
CR:
Then it’s got to be --
JJ:
So there was Ogden --
CR:
Manierre?
JJ:
Manierre?
CR:
It could have been Manierre.
JJ:
It might have been Manierre yeah.
CR:
Which was near Cabrini. I think Manierre was --
JJ:
Where was Franklin School now? Did you go to Franklin school?
CR:
No, I didn’t go to Franklin school. It was Newberry. No it was Ogden, and I
believe it was Manierre.
JJ:
Okay, I heard of that.
CR:
Because where did you go? You went to --
JJ:
I went to Saint Joseph’s Holy Name Cathedral.
CR:
See we were -- well, we would go to Holy Name Cathedral for -- remember they
used to have Las Hijas de Maria. I did my confirmation or communion there.
JJ:
At Holy Name Cathedral?
CR:
At Holy Name because we used to go to church at Holy Name Cathedral.
JJ:
So there was a -- Las Hijas de Maria at Holy Name Cathedral.
CR:
And we used to go to [01:33:00] catechism there.
JJ:
Okay and what year was that, what year was that?
CR:
That had to be late ’50s, early ’60s, maybe ’61?
63
�JJ:
Okay, around ’61. And so then you moved to -- from there, where did you move
to?
CR:
To 1113 -- 1114 North Larrabee. Which was Larrabee and Cleveland. Which,
Saint Michael’s was down the street.
JJ:
And were you at Saint Michael’s Elementary or?
CR:
No, Carlos got to go to Saint Michael’s. I ended up going to Newberry.
JJ:
Oh you went to Newberry.
CR:
Yeah, we went to Newberry.
JJ:
But you had already made your first communion.
CR:
And everything. It was the Catholic Church. You know, the Catholic Church was
the ones that really brought my parents over here and everything. They --
JJ:
What do you mean?
CR:
You know that they came through like Catholic Charities. It was a charitable
thing, and they brought us over here. And then that’s when my father started
working here.
JJ:
What kind of work was your father doing?
CR:
Factory work.
JJ:
Factory work.
CR:
But my father didn’t [01:34:00] come to Chicago. My father came to Connecticut
to pick tomatoes and cucumbers. And then from there he migrated to Chicago.
JJ:
How did he get to go to Connecticut?
CR:
Because that was the day that they had the bootstrap Muñoz Marín, and they
were looking for people to work the fields like they do now where they have the
64
�migrant workers. So they call for people from Puerto Rico. And my father
couldn’t support all of us. It was like three of us that he was supporting and so
he had to come to the United States and make a living. And then he sent for my
parents -- you know, he sent for my -- not my parents. He sent for my mother
and his kids. And that’s where we ended up on La Salle and Superior.
JJ:
Right from Connecticut to La Salle. Okay. Now did you have other family here?
Did he have other family?
CR:
No. Because -- well my father didn’t live there. My father must have lived with
some other [01:35:00] Puerto Rican family on Oak Street. Do you remember
Oak Street? It was Oak and La Salle. I think he lived with some people there.
And then when my mother came with me and my sister and my baby brother
which is, now they call him Cougar, the little one. Carlos had not come. Then
that’s when we -- he ended up moving to the building there on La Salle and
Superior. Which was a third floor.
JJ:
So he first came to the Oak and La Salle and then to that building.
CR:
To that building. Because he lived in a -- like it was like a man’s room. Like a -what do you call those? He was like a boarder. So, like a room -- they would
rent him a room for the night. But then when my mother came with us, the two
daughters and the son, and my brother was just a newborn.
JJ:
A rooming house or something like that?
CR:
A rooming house. It was a whole bunch -- I think there was a lot of Puerto Rican
guys there. Or a lot of Latinos that lived there.
65
�JJ:
So there were like a lot of men [01:36:00] that were working that came here just
to work.
CR:
Just to work.
JJ:
(Spanish) [01:36:04]
CR:
So from there, we lived on La Salle and Superior and then we ended up moving
on Larrabee. I don’t know why we moved. And then we stayed on Larrabee until
HUD came. And at that time they were building Cabrini-Green. Cabrini-Green
was starting to get built.
JJ:
So you came before Cabrini-Green was built.
CR:
Right. So we saw Cabrini-Green being built. And Cabrini, there was a lot of
Latinos inside Cabrini-Green. They were scattered all over. So Larrabee, so we
were what 17 -- we were 1714 North Larrabee. Cabrini started 1009 North
Larrabee. Then 11-something North Larrabee. So the first projects was in the
1000 block of North Larrabee. That was the projects [01:37:00] that was there on
Larrabee and Alston or Clybourn.
JJ:
Clybourn there.
CR:
Yeah, that was one of the first projects. And then you had Cooley High. There
was a high school there called Cooley High. So we ended up going to Waller
and then some -- the Cabrini-Green kids some went to Cooley and some went to
Waller.
JJ:
But before you get to Waller, you went to Newberry also.
CR:
And graduated from Newberry.
JJ:
So tell me about Newberry.
66
�CR:
Well okay we were going to Newberry.
JJ:
What was that like? And what the population was.
CR:
Puerto Rican. Puerto Rican because it was Puerto Ricans living on Halsted, on
Willow, on Orchard, on Burling. That was a Puerto Rican neighborhood. So we
were going to Newberry and for some reason we ended up moving. They moved
us or transferred us to La Salle. So I graduated eighth grade from La Salle.
JJ:
Oh from Newberry and La Salle is a few blocks east of that. [01:38:00] So why
didn’t you transfer to there?
CR:
I can’t remember what it was. I don’t know if the school was overcrowded or
what. But from Newberry we ended up going to La Salle. And then I ended up -we ended up -- me and my sister ended up graduating from La Salle.
JJ:
Oh so -- okay so you went to Newberry and La Salle were the main schools you
went to. But you also went to Manierre and Ogden.
CR:
Yeah but those were when we were younger. And then La Salle and Newberry
were the two schools that we were like seventh, eighth grade.
JJ:
And what was La Salle like? I mean what was that --
CR:
La Salle was on Wisconsin and --
JJ:
Yeah, exactly, Wisconsin. Or Willow or something.
CR:
Willow.
JJ:
Between Willow and Wisconsin.
CR:
No, let me see. Newberry was on Willow and Orchard. La Salle was on
Menomonee, was a street called Menomonee.
JJ:
Right, it changed to Menomonee.
67
�CR:
And Sedgwick. That’s where La Salle was at. [01:39:00]
JJ:
I think Willow changed to Menomonee or something. But I don’t know. But it
was Menomonee, you’re correct. And so --
CR:
So that was ’60, ’65.
JJ:
’65 and so they were not changing the school, but you don’t know why.
CR:
I believe it was overcrowded or maybe they redistrict, and they move some of the
people around because we were on Larrabee and La Salle. Even though it could
have been the distance, so.
JJ:
Okay, so what do you remember of school? I mean what was school like kind of?
CR:
Well school was horrible because we did not speak English. We did not speak
English. So I remember being put in a corner for I don’t know how many years.
And the teachers -- my name is in Puerto Rico they call me Camila. When I
come here, I came here to Chicago, they changed my name to Carmen. My
sister’s name was Mina, they changed it to Myrna. [01:40:00] So that’s how we
grew up. And then we finally learned English, and we survived the streets. And
the life and then from there Waller. And then I was there from --
JJ:
And what about Saint Michael’s? You mentioned Saint Michael’s.
CR:
Saint Michael’s, my brother Carlos got to go to Saint Michael’s. I didn’t go. But
Saint Michael’s was like kitty-corner of La Salle. But my mother could not afford
to put all of us in a Catholic school, so Carlos I think went for a year, but we
never went to a Catholic school. We would go to church at Saint Michael’s.
JJ:
And when you went to church at Saint Michael’s, how was the church? I mean
where --
68
�CR:
It was a Puerto Rican church. They had a Puerto Rican mass.
JJ:
They had a Puerto Rican mass?
CR:
It was -- yeah. Father -- I cannot remember.
JJ:
Kathrine?
CR:
Father Kathrine was one of them and there was another father there. You know,
White guys that spoke fluent Spanish. And they were part of the Catholic charity,
you know, of helping the Latino families. La Virgen Maria. [01:41:00]
JJ:
So when you say you had Spanish mass, did you have it at the --
CR:
At the big church.
JJ:
You had it at the big church. Okay so --
CR:
And then when the neighborhood started changing, they moved us down to the
rectory, down to the basement. Because then the neighborhood started
changing so there wasn’t as many Latino families.
JJ:
So they moved you to the rectory. But you never celebrated mass in the hall?
They had a hall next door to it.
CR:
No, we celebrated yeah in both. It was moved from the hall across the street
which was Saint Michael’s. It was the hall; it was next door to the church. And
then they moved us to the rectory which was down more in the basement where
the priest lived.
JJ:
Oh so you started in the hall and then you went to the rectory.
CR:
We started at the church. Then the -- the hall across the street. And then from
that hall it went down to the rectory. And so they totally moved out all the Puerto
Ricans that were there. [01:42:00]
69
�JJ:
Why do you think that?
CR:
The neighborhood was changing. The families were not there so they even
stopped the Sunday service. It used to be on record that there was a Sunday
service and then after that it was just --
JJ:
You mean a Sunday service in Spanish.
CR:
In Spanish.
JJ:
But they stopped that later in the --
CR:
In the years.
JJ:
Okay because I tried to look at some records and had some histories and they
said they don’t find that period of time like it didn’t exist. But maybe just those
people didn’t know.
CR:
They probably don’t know but they --
JJ:
They didn’t know. Okay now were your parents involved with like the Caballeros
de San Juan or -- Council Number Three was at Saint Michael’s.
CR:
My father -- my father used to go to the (inaudible) because that was the time
that the Puerto Ricans would get together. So you had El Congreso, do you
remember Carlos Caribe? The Congress used to be on North Avenue and
Larrabee.
JJ:
And what did -- did you used to go there or? [01:43:00]
CR:
Yeah, when we were little we would go to parties. They would have parties there.
JJ:
They would have parties there.
CR:
Yeah, family gatherings. And then they would have baseball. The baseball
league.
70
�JJ:
From the Congreso?
CR:
Yeah. And my father was very active in the baseball league.
JJ:
What did -- did he play ball?
CR:
Yeah, he was a manager.
JJ:
Oh he was a manager.
CR:
They played baseball in Saint -- at Lincoln Park.
JJ:
Okay. So he was the manager of that team?
CR:
Yeah. At El Puerto Boricua.
JJ:
What was your father’s name again?
CR:
Charlie -- they used to call him Charlie Flores but Gonzalo Flores.
JJ:
Gonzalo Flores. And you said Puerto Boricua.
CR:
It was El Puerto Boricua Post Number I can’t remember. But that post was --
JJ:
But did you used to go there to that? What did they do there?
CR:
They had dances, gatherings. You know, Puerto Ricans would gather there. You
know we would be homesick I guess so all the Puerto Ricans would meet there.
JJ:
At the Puerto Boricua. But you don’t recall where that was located or?
CR:
It was on North Avenue and Larrabee. [01:44:00]
JJ:
Right next to the Congreso or?
CR:
The Congreso was right on the corner of North Avenue and Larrabee. If you look
at it now, you would not believe that there was a Congreso there. But it was
Larrabee. So it was the -- one side of Larrabee was like Puerto Ricans and then
the other side of Larrabee was Cabrini. The other side of North Avenue -- so you
had North Avenue dividing the Puerto Rican and the Black.
71
�JJ:
Community. It was the dividing line at that time? And it was also like the road?
Puerto Ricans kept moving west on North Avenue I guess.
CR:
There was a lot of Puerto Ricans, yeah. Willow.
JJ:
Would you see a lot of Puerto Ricans if you went there.
CR:
Families. Sheffield.
JJ:
What were some of the families?
CR:
I don’t remember a lot of the names but you have the Bergel? -- not the Bergels - the Vélez. I remember the Vélez. Do you remember that one of them shot
himself? [01:45:00] He used to be part of the Young Lords.
JJ:
Oh yeah, Chino, Chino they used to call him Chino.
CR:
Yeah. You had Los Peñas, the Peña family. They lived on North Avenue and
Sedgwick. You had the --
JJ:
Someone else mentioned the Peñas.
CR:
The Lugos lived in Cabrini-Green. The Lugos lived in Cabrini-Green. Who else?
I’m trying to remember the big families. The (inaudible)
JJ:
The Pantojas.
CR:
The Pantojas.
JJ:
So now you’re at Saint Michael’s and --
CR:
Church not the school.
JJ:
The church, not the school. But there are activities going on there with the
Caballeros de San Juan or?
CR:
Yeah there was a lot of activities, you know, for Puerto Rican families. They
would do parties and dances, dinners, banquets.
72
�JJ:
At Saint Michael’s?
CR:
At Saint Michael’s.
JJ:
And also the Congreso dinner too. So it was like several organizations right
where Saint Michael’s was at, [01:46:00] at this point. Okay and did you ever go
to any of those retreats that they had?
CR:
I was young. But I think my mother and father did.
JJ:
Okay. Okay. So you were young. Did they keep you in the house or as a young
Puerto Rican woman --
CR:
No, we were like what, 12, 13 on Larrabee. So we played outside. We went to
the boys club. We went to Saint Michael’s.
JJ:
You had a site at the YMCA. Did you go to the YMCA?
CR:
Okay, where was the YMCA at?
JJ:
The YMCA was the other side of North Avenue. Action YMCA.
They had
dances too and they had a swimming pool. But the boys club was on Orchard
and Willow.
CR:
We went more to Orchard and Willow.
JJ:
More Orchard and Willow. Okay you didn’t go to the Action YMCA at all?
CR:
I heard of it, but I can’t remember.
JJ:
Okay.
CR:
And probably was there just don’t remember it. [01:47:00]
JJ:
Okay but you went to boys club. And you did -- the girls did -- basically arts and
crafts?
CR:
Arts and crafts. We’d do --
73
�JJ:
Any teams? Any soccer teams? Anything like that or?
CR:
Could have been, I can’t remember.
JJ:
Okay, all right. But you graduated from Newberry and then where did you go?
CR:
No, no. Not Newberry. La Salle.
JJ:
La Salle.
CR:
Waller.
JJ:
You went to Waller. What year was that?
CR:
’65.
JJ:
1965.
CR:
June of 1965.
JJ:
What do you remember -- now you were in high school you should really have a
good memory.
CR:
No, high school was ’65 to ’69. Yeah because I graduated from Waller in ’69.
JJ:
Okay so now can you describe Waller at that time? Okay and then we’ll stop it
there.
CR:
Okay, Waller was all Puerto Rican.
JJ:
All Puerto Rican. What does that mean?
CR:
Puerto Ricans and Blacks. But it was mostly Puerto Ricans.
JJ:
At that time? [01:48:00]
CR:
At that time. So you had Puerto Ricans living on Burling and you had Puerto
Ricans living on Larrabee. You had Puerto Ricans living on Orchard, Halsted,
Dickens. What else? The whole Lincoln Park. That was a Puerto Rican
neighborhood. I remember the hot dog stand on Dickens -- Halsted and Dickens.
74
�JJ:
Halsted and Dickens, yeah.
CR:
Used to make the best Polishes.
JJ:
Yes. Everybody had credit there. I had credit there. Other guys did. Okay.
CR:
You don’t want to finish this with my father?
JJ:
Testing, one, two, three. Go ahead testing, one, two, three.
CR:
Testing one, two, three.
JJ:
Okay that’s a good sound. All right. So if you could just start with your name and
your date of birth and if you were born here or what town where you were born in
Puerto Rico or your family’s from.
CR:
Okay. My name is Carmen Flores Rance. I was Carmen Flores when I was in
Lincoln Park. But I was born [01:49:00] in Puerto Rico. July 18, 1951. My
parents moved here from Puerto Rico from a town called Guayama in Puerto
Rico. And my parents -- my father came first as every Puerto Rican family had to
-- when the bootstrap thing was happening in Puerto Rico, my father came here
to get a better life. And so then he left my mother and her -- and the kids. But
then when he could send for us, I was five. My sister was six. And we came to
Chicago to live. So I originally am from La Salle and Chicago Avenue. That was
the first Puerto Rican family that I knew, and I was here when I was five. Then
from there we were on Larrabee. Larrabee and Cleveland. And then HUD took
over and moved us out and my parents ended up buying a home. A three flat
building [01:50:00] in Lincoln Park.
END OF VIDEO FILE
75
�
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/434a24532b50f425b5f9ef8456af7aae.mp4
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection
Subject
The topic of the resource
Young Lords (Organization)
Puerto Ricans--United States
Civil Rights--United States--History
Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.)
Personal narratives
Social justice
Community activists--Illinois--Chicago
Description
An account of the resource
Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives.
The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide.
Creator
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Jiménez, José, 1948-
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a>
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Date
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2017-04-25
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
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video/mp4
application/pdf
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eng
spa
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Identifier
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RHC-65
Coverage
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2012-2017
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Título
Spanish language Title entry
Carmen Rance vídeo entrevista y biografía
Sujetos
Spanish language Subject terms
Young Lords (Organización)
Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos
Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia
Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.)
Puertorriqueños--Relatos personales
Justicia social
Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago
Renovación urbana--Illinois--Chicago
Relaciones raciales
Source
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a>
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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RHC-65_Rance_Carmen
Title
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Carmen Rance video interview and transcript
Creator
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Rance, Carmen
Description
An account of the resource
When Carmen F. Rance’s family first came to Chicago from Puerto Rico, she lived at the Water Hotel then moved to Lincoln Park where she grew up. She joined the Young Lords through the Breakfast for Children Program. Her family owned a large apartment building on the corner of Clifton and Armitage Avenue where many other Puerto Rican families lived. Her family was active with Council Number 9 of the Caballeros de San Juan and Damas de María, at St. Teresa’s Church. Today Ms. Rance works as a case manager and has been a lay leader in the San Lucas United Church of Christ for many years.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Jiménez, José, 1948-
Subject
The topic of the resource
Young Lords (Organization)
Puerto Ricans--United States
Civil Rights--United States--History
Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.)
Puerto Ricans--Personal narratives
Social justice
Community activists--Illinois--Chicago
Urban renewal--Illinois--Chicago
Race relations
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Format
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Date
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2012-03-30
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
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https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e4cb62dcf1fa9e38f50a61c2a2dcc91d.pdf
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PDF Text
Text
Mark Randall - Interviewed by Ted Reyda
May 20, 2018
1
Part 1
Unknown voice: Now look at it, does it say R E C? That’s important you’ve got to look at that screen,
don’t, don’t rely on the buttons!
Ted Reyda: Okay, we have uh, Mark here and he’s going to tell his adventures and youth of being in the
area.
Mark Randall: [Inaudible] Um, I was born on uh, November 21st 1950 so, the uh, my memories might be
somewhat hazy until I get to be about 10 years old or so. But uh, but I came up here every year, for two
weeks. My grandparents, um, owned a placed on 64th street, they purchased it when my mom came up
here when she was 17, which would have been about 1942 to go to Oxbow and they came up here to
keep an eye on her and they bought that place on 64th street so obviously when she got married along
with her sisters who all got married and had lots of kids, we would all get um, um. My grandparents had
3, 3 daughters and each family got two weeks up here over the summer. Um [pause] my main, my first
recollections were going to Lake Goshorn which was near 64th street my uh, grandfather knew Gus
Raiser who the uh, the gas station and auto place there and he also owned the property behind it and so
he gave us permission to go there and swim, and that’s where I learned to swim. Um, uh suddenly my
dad tried throwing me out the boat uh, but that didn’t work because I went right to the bottom and
they had to rescue me and then gradually with my uh, grandfather and my mother taking more time.
Um, I also remember going with my grandpa to get his cigar uh, and newspaper at Funk’s which was uh,
in downtown. Uh, and I remember on rainy days we would go to the laundromat which is where um,
really Wick’s park is right now, I believe. Um, and uh there was a miniature golf course there, on nicer
days we would get to play. Maybe we put this on pause and look at the questions?
Unknown voice: Well I think that’s great.
[00:02:20]
Part 2
Mark Randall: So now we have the questions, um the only thing of the first four that I didn't say is
where I lived the rest of the time and uh, are we, we grew up in Chicago, in the southwest suburbs,
Orland Park. And [pause] it asks what our favorite place to eat was, well, one of the things we did as kids
is my mom would take us, my grandparents had this old car, it was in 1936 Buick, it was called
Unbelievable, and um, there were no seats in the back, it was a coop so we would all stand back there
and my parents, my mom would drive. And so we would make it uh, to Oval Beach and we would run
along the beach while my mom looked at the sunset. The idea is we would all, which is something we do
to this day, uh, and [pause] we would pass the Rootbeer Barrel and, but when we were out there on the
beach, my mom said we would not go there unless we stayed dry because she didn't want to wash all
our clothes. So we would go walking along, and then pretty soon we'd be running and pretty soon one
of us would get a little wet and pretty soon you push each other all in and we'd all be soaked. But my
mom wanted the ice cream or the root beer or something so we would all got to go anyway. So that was
a favorite place because uh, the root beer tasted good after being, uh after being there and plus we
could stay out a little later. So, uh, um, did we ever go over to Douglas? Uh, yes we did um, as I grew up
more, um, they tried to teach ten, when we would play tennis and the courts in Saugatuck were our
first choice because, uh, they were closer, um, but if it didn't work, there was uh, a tennis court right
�Mark Randall - Interviewed by Ted Reyda
May 20, 2018
2
where Berry fields is now and we would go there. It was a little bit more of a substandard court, but I
remember going there. Um, and uh, were there other places that were important to us or did you have
a summer job locally? Um, as I got older, of course I did the typical things. You, uh, you grew up and uh,
went through high school, got a job and went to college. So, when I got um, when I got to high school,
we would still be able to come up here for two weeks. But it was, it was more of a problem for me. So I
would generally come up for a period of time if I could with my folks and it didn't have to work and try
and arrange it because it was always something that was still special. Um, I had a very unusual
experience in, while we were down in Timmeny Park working in a restaurant and met, uh, uh, a lifelong
friend who was a seminarian at the time at Saint Augustine's seminary. Um, and so we've hatched a plan
that I would, when I came up here with my parents and he was at school or he was at the seminary that
I would sneak out. And so we did this and I got on a bicycle and rode from 64th street over to the
seminary and it was late, you know, midnight, one in the morning, something like that. And, uh, and uh,
I remember passing the seminary. Uh, it was a vivid marriage because I was scared and, uh, I was doing
something I wasn't supposed to be doing, and uh, but we, I got there and somehow found our way to
the seminarians who are out at the lake, uh, skinny dipping in the boathouse, which was still there at the
time, it had a second floor and, uh, people were hanging out there, listening to music and drinking beer.
And, uh, and, and I think that was one of my first entries into the LGBT community because uh, I started
to realize that I, I got awfully excited about that. I wouldn't take my clothes off for fear of, well, you
know [Laughs]. And so, uh, and so um, so Saugatuck was a special place. Um, I, I said this once in a
speech that I gave here. I had a, I loved old buildings and there were three really prominent ones in my
memory. Um, one was Tera, which we rarely went to, but I think my grandfather took me there once
after I had actually done some hard work for him. Um, uh, another was the Mount Baldhead Hotel.
Which you could see if you went on the ferry or if you, uh, if you played miniature golf there and things.
And the third was a beautiful set of pillars, uh, in front of a, I presume was a Greek Revival House that
was perched on the, uh, along the river. So if you took the, what was then the Island Queen, a precursor
to the Star of Saugatuck, uh, you would see it, as you, as you gently glided down the river, and those
made an impression on me and uh, and it also made an impression on me that there are no longer here,
um and I think that got us, got me started, I think in some ways on the appreciation of old buildings and
the desire to restore them, which we've carried out today.
[00:5:09]
Ted Reyda: And you, what what are those buildings you've restored in the area?
MR: Um, well there are two. Um, this obviously is not the 60s, 50s or 60s. Uh, but, uh, uh, much later in
the last, uh, 10 years or so, we, uh, um, Chris, my spouse is a teacher and so we get our summers off.
And so we hit on the idea of starting to come here and that grew into uh, hosting our whole family here
for the Oxbow um, the same weekend as the Oxbow benefit because my mom was on the board there
for a long time. And, uh, and so we held the, uh, we would come for that weekend, stay at the
Timberline hotel, know, but then we decided to buy a place. We bought our first place, uh, about 12, 13
years ago. Um, and uh, and that was a relatively newly restored condominium. But then we took on a
project, uh, Dan Shanahan's urging when we, we bought a lot on Washington Street and, and uh, moved
the old, what was the remnants of the old Douglas Hotel, uh, citizen in 1934 it burned and it was
cobbled down into a, uh, into a little bungalow with what was left. And uh, that was on the corner of
Center and Washington and they, uh, the owner of that was going to demolish it. And so we bought the
nearest property right next door, and, and, and he gave us that house for a dollar and we moved it
there. Um, and then uh, several years later there was another house, uh, the Gerber house, which was
at Union and South, I believe. And uh, that was also going to be demolished by owner who wanted to
�Mark Randall - Interviewed by Ted Reyda
May 20, 2018
3
build something else there. And we purchased that for a dollar, and, and, since that acquired a lot of the
corner where the old house used to be and moved it there.
TR: Do you uh, have any memories of your mother at Oxbow? As a child going there and observing it?
MR: I don't have any per se, but my mom tells me stories. She said one time she was there doing a
figure study uh, a class, and there was a uh, uh, a woman who was naked, you know, being, uh, being
painted and that, uh, and that I, when I noticed that I was, my mom would take me and put me out by
the water and tell me to behave, you know, play there and behave myself and, uh, but I somehow saw
that, and uh, she I think took a break and went running down and jumped into the water. And, uh, and
so I was horrified by that and went running up and told my mom that there was a bare naked lady down
there.
[TR laughs]
MR: I can't say I remember that, but, uh, um, I, uh, we other memories were of course going to Oval
and uh, walking down towards the channel as I, uh, as I grew older and realized I was gay of course, that
he had a different connotation because we knew there were uh, gay people down there cause they
would be like sentinels up on the, up on the slope for, you know, and uh, but uh, but even then we
remember going down there, you know, during the sunset and [inaudible]
TR: But you never wandered up into the dunes?
MR: Uh, no, I mean, not that, not that I can remember.
TR: Okay.
MR: It took me till I was 34 results to really, uh, except all those, even though, uh, back then the, the,
the, the seminary experience was about 17. So a, so I was a pretty slow mover. I wasn't heading up to
any dunes.
TR: So the area had enough interest where you had to come back?
MR: Yes. In fact, one summer I was, uh, in my senior year, so this be outside, again, this is about 72.
Um, I or summer of yeah, 72 or 71 maybe. I was, uh, we, I had made enough money in summers before
where I didn't need to work much that week, that, that summer and um, we decided it would be really
fun, some friends of ours and I, to come up here to Saugatuck and stay for a summer. So I managed to
get a job at the Ilfarmo restaurant washing dishes and we stayed at a little place. It's a little place it’s
much nicer now it's going to redone. Um, but it, it was a little cottage uh, which was just basically two
rooms right next to the funeral home and, and perched up a little bit, so you actually walk out with a set
of stairs, which is still there. It's still there, but it was much rougher then, didn't have the nice porch that
it has now and actually the dune kept encroaching, so, uh, the toilet, by the time we left, there was a, a
little toilet was the closest thing to the dune and there was this sort of slope of sand behind it that was
kind of close to your uh, feet, um. But uh, so we stayed in that and we had rented that for the summer
and, uh, we would go out on the dunes and, uh, and for sunset, we've never had any money. Uh, and so
we would go out there and watch the sunsets just as much as I did when I was a kid, except that we
would have a bottle of Boone's farm and maybe some other entertainments that, uh, and we would
walk there frequently and uh, stay till it got dark.
�Mark Randall - Interviewed by Ted Reyda
May 20, 2018
4
[00:10:34]
TR: No, no knowledge of uh, Toads, the gay, the only supposedly gay bar.
MR: Um, we, the only knowledge I have of a gay bar was during that same time when I was renting and I
worked at the Ilforma, you could work in late. And I walked by the Blue Tempo, and I would
occasionally…
TR: That is the same place.
MR: Ah, okay. And, uh, I would occasionally get whistled at or you know, uh, get a comment.
TR: But you never went in?
MR: No, I, uh, I, I wasn't accepting of, uh, of, uh, of that. Yeah. So, uh, so it looked at it mostly flustered
me because I didn't really know how to react.
TR: But, yeah, it's wonderful that you've had these positive feelings to come back and then you bring
your family and back and you certainly have a long tradition. I don't know if you want to describe any of
the house that your grandfather had, the family inn?
MR: Well, they were from Germany. Um, so, um, they, they spoke English but with a, with a heavily
German accent, and so there were memories or Germany in every place they had. So the, uh, the
original house there was uh, a cottage. It was a, it had knotty pine, which I remember vividly, a beautiful
warm view. And they had a, uh, you know, a German cuckoo clock that would come out, and, but the,
uh, and, and there, that was the part of the house we could go to, but my grandparents kept part of the
house on the other side of the kitchen that was off limits to us because I think they wanted to keep it
quiet, and, uh, and you have some separation because my mom had five kids, my Aunt Deb had eight,
my Aunt Mony had five, so they had six weeks of this, uh, you know, lots of kids and I think they had to
have some area of, uh, it was 15 acres, so, uh, or it was until they started building on 196 and then they
lost their…
TR: Okay, were there summer gardens or anything?
MR: Yes, they had a beautiful garden, they had a uh, uh, uh a rectangle, a long rectangle of flowers that
were between the two houses. We got kind of the refurbished garage to stay in, all the, all the uh, the
daughters families and uh, and, and that was between them and there was a lot of lawn and there were
a lot of apple trees. Um, there were, there were all around, the circular drive is still there.
TR: Did they spray it to get the fruit or just?
MR: [Inaudible] I don't remember.
TR: You don't remember?
MR: [Speaking over TR] You know, we would come, we would come generally in, uh, late June or early
July, so picking through, um, uh, wasn't ever a part of what we did, uh…
�Mark Randall - Interviewed by Ted Reyda
May 20, 2018
5
TR: And they probably didn't have any pits around here, in Fennville?
MR: They may have, they may have, uh, um, for whatever reason, it wasn't something that would…
TR: How long was the journey from Chicago?
MR: Well, back then it was, uh, probably a good four hours or so. The uh, um, I remember that we
would all pile, you know five kids and you know, into my, either my dad’s car or [inaudible] car
[inaudible] grandfather too. And uh, and I remember one of us would lay on the uh, the back deck of the
window, you know, obviously there were no seatbelts then, but you know, we'd always have to go to
the bathroom and so there'll be lots of stops and we would stop at um, was a Bill Naps, I think it was a or
the Big Boy, and uh eat something on the way. If we're in, and if we were good, we would get ice cream,
uh, and we would get another real good or not. But it was a, it was a incentive.
TR: I don't know if you want to get into, did any of your family take memories and objects from this
place?
MR: [Laughs] Uh, we all have memories, you know, whenever we have a sort of family of union
Saugatuck comes up and now that we, Chris and I have a place here, uh, we've gotten visits from a lot of
the family that we're still in touch with.
TR: And so their, their experiences are very positive then?
MR: Oh, yes, yes. It was a, an extraordinarily warm experience, uh, in the place. You know, you forget
what we had a, we had a family with a bunch of little kids come visit, uh, a few years ago, and we were
thinking, well, what are they going to do? Well between the dunes schooner rides and like the fishing or
whatever, there’s just so much for kids to do here. And, uh, and uh, you know, I, I can't, I can't think of a
child that has had a negative view of, of, uh, of being here.
[00:15:18]
TR: In what ways to have the area changed?
MR: Well, after, uh, you know, moving to California and lots of stuff, it's amazing to me how little it has
changed. But I think I, uh, I would, I would say, you know, certainly it's sad to see uh, there, as I said the,
some of the architectural things, you know, leave, the pavilion of course. Oh, I remember seeing movies
there my grandparents took me to movies there.
TR: That down below?
MR: Yeah, uh, and it was, um, and it was getting kind of tacky, you know, and I don't know that, I don't
have a memory of the ballroom, um, so we probably never were up there for anything. Um, but still, you
know, it was a remarkable building and to see it go, uh, with, uh, uh, which it did when I must've been, I
think about 13 or so when uh, when it burned down.
TR: Did you ever uh do, take sailing lessons?
�Mark Randall - Interviewed by Ted Reyda
May 20, 2018
6
MR: I did, I did. Um, my parents, you know, were, uh, had no end of things to try and uh, try and keep us
occupied. And one of them was taking swimming lessons, uh which we took, I think, uh, I forget where.
Um, what pool or something?
TR: There was a, north of town, a huge pool.
MR: Yeah.
TR: But they closed that because the polio.
MR: Right, so I think that may have already closed, uh...
TR: It was at North Street and, and Holland. Yeah.
MR: Yeah. I know, I've heard of it, but I, I don't, I don't have a memory.
TR: Okay.
MR: But I do remember swimming lessons, but the, the one thing that I did remarkably poorly at, and
our son did too, was uh, sailing at the yacht club. Uh, I you would start on these prants, which were a
flat fronted sailboat, and uh, and it, once you've mastered that, which never did, then you move up to
the lightning’s, uh, which were a bigger, a bigger, smoother boat, uh, but it was fine then it was
memorable, and uh, and uh, even if I do remember getting whacked on the head with it, boom, more,
uh, more than once.
TR: Which for example, are there any negatives of your experiences here, that you can think of?
MR: Um, not any that were, uh, you know, uh, to the place. Um, there was some family dynamics that
sometimes didn't [inaudible] well. Um, but, uh, I, and I remember I have had a lifelong, dread of
mosquito I suppose, but you know, I don’t know where in the park where they have get any less, so I
imagine that was just part of growing up. Uh…
TR: [Inaudible]
MR: Um, not so much, I don’t remember uh, getting that. Um, so it was a pretty much all positive
memory. It was just wonderful to get away, uh, and come here and it was a beautiful place. And my
parents above all knew how to appreciate beauty and they knew how to instill that, both the beauty
itself and the appreciation of it in me. And uh, this is a beautiful place.
TR: And at some point hopefully we’ll have your mother doing an oral uh, session.
MR: And you need to get her fast. She's 93 and she's taking care of my dad a lot, but the uh…
TR: But the, the art work she's done and going to Oxbow, very, very rich experiences.
MR: Yep. It's your, uh, and I think that if there is a negative, that will be when my mom passes away
with, because so much of, uh, so much of the memory here involves her, uh, so. [Pause]
�Mark Randall - Interviewed by Ted Reyda
May 20, 2018
7
TR: Okay.
MR: Two experiences that seem like they might have answer, uh, some of the questions here. Uh, it
asks, did you spend time on the water? And yes, we certainly did. Um, we used to come up here a lot,
even not just that summer bit, uh, that, um, I came after college during college we, we, would come up,
but we had no place to stay and we didn't have the money so we would, uh, we would, uh, you know, go
watch the sunset or otherwise entertain ourselves until uh, a, a, and we'd hang out in front of the, uh,
the old, uh, coral gables, because you hear the music there were along the, uh, along the water and uh,
and then when it got late enough, we would um, park our cars along uh, uh, Lakeshore there where all
fancy houses are, and find one of the pathways and we would sneak by, sometimes the windows were
open until we got out to the beach and we would sleep on the beach until, uh, until the morning. Um,
and the only other water experience is a one time. We decided we were going to, uh, make it to the
other side of the channel, and so we kind of, uh, um…
[00:20:12]
TR: We being your family.
MR: No, no, nobody, nobody else in my family is that stupid, uh, but it was just one of my friends and I
had a, or two of us, two, so three of us total. And we, uh, we decided we were going to swim across the
channel and uh, and, and we did, it was kind of icky, the water and it was hard getting up the other side
once we got there, which probably should have occurred to us before we left. But, uh, and uh, and we
didn't bring enough food and stuff. We would kind of have, have to hold it above our heads, you know,
to get, to get across. So I think that was it.
TR: Okay. [Pause]
MR: [Inaudible] Although my mom um, had five kids to raise. She still would bring us over to Oxbow and
she would still sometimes take classes or paint over there. And so we, Oxbow is it been a part of my life
as long as Saugatuck has. Um, you know, my mom ended up on the board there and so I would uh, go up
with her or sometimes for meetings or things like that. And we, we stayed in the Inn, in one of the other
cottages, uh, which was, uh, rustic even by a college students standards, uh back, back then. Um, when
we were very young, um, we, as I said, we used to go play tennis and one of the rewards for tennis was,
uh, we would, we would go to Recsals and, uh, I, uh, I was partial to root beer floats, then chocolate
shakes, uh, and then chocolate sodas. But uh, but that it's amazing how little that, you had asked what
changes, how little that has changed. That it’s still there, seems like the same experience, it always will.
TRL But you also did the root beer floats at the Root Beer Stand.
MR: I'm trying to remember when the Root Beer Barrel had floats, they had mugs, you know, big mugs
and you can get foot long hot dogs.
TR: Frozen, frozen mugs. Like this.
MR: But we, we did have a hot dogs cause we had just eaten dinner, this was a sunset thing. But the, uh,
but we did have the, the big mugs, and um, I don't remember where there floats or not.
�Mark Randall - Interviewed by Ted Reyda
May 20, 2018
8
TR: Where would you, you cooked at, your family cooked at home a lot. Uh, where did you buy your
groceries?
MR: Um, well that’s another story, they, uh, where or 64th street is like nothing. Like it is now, iIt was a,
it was barely paved. It was a, had a big crown at, so you'd be constantly afraid that old car was going to
go off the road. Um, so, um, but, but you could ride your bike out to a place, I think it's called Hanes or
something like that, which is a, the building is still there right now, it’s say pet health center or
something. Uh, it's right next to where the Burger King is now.
TR: The cat, cat house.
MR: And uh, well that was a, that was like, uh, a, a, a, early precursor of like a 7-11 where you could buy
uh, basic things. And the trick for me was invariably that my mom would want eggs and I would, I would
try and get them home without breaking too many…
TR: On your bicycle.
MR: And I had uh, limited, uh, marginal success, at that, uh but I remember so, so we would get sent up
there. Uh, as far as shopping it itself, was is there a grocery store like Demond’s? I know on rainy days in
addition to doing laundry and we'd go into Holland to buy things. Um, but, uh, but I don't remember.
TR: Was, was your family religious? Did you attend any churches?
MR: Um, we, I don't remember what was there before the St Peter's, now we're Catholic family and uh,
but I do remember a big church being brand new, um, and…
TR: Where your condo was, was where the church was.
MR: Uh, well it could have been, well it was obviously, but I don't remember it. I do remember Saint
Peter's and how impressive it was because it was new and that there was a, uh, there was a building uh,
having, there's a room that was for um, all the noisy kids and, uh, but my, my mom had considered me
graduated enough where I had to go in the main part and behave and I couldn't be back there uh, with
the other kids.
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Summers in Saugatuck-Douglas Collection
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. Kutsche Office of Local History
Description
An account of the resource
Collection contains images and documents digitized and collected through the project "Stories of Summer," supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant. The collection aims to document the twin lakeshore communities of Saugatuck and Douglas, Michigan, as they transformed through the state's bustling tourism industry and acceptance of minorities.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1910s-2010s
Source
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Various
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Michigan
Saugatuck (Mich.)
Douglas (Mich.)
Michigan, Lake
Allegan County (Mich.)
Beaches
Sand dunes
Outdoor recreation
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan
Contributor
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Saugatuck-Douglas History Center
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Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project)
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image/jpeg
application/pdf
Type
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Image
Text
Language
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English
Date
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2018
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
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DC-07_SD-RandallM-20180530
Creator
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Randall, Mark
Date
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2018-05-30
Title
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Mark Randal (Audio interview and transcript), 2018
Description
An account of the resource
Mark Randall grew up in Orland Park, near Chicago, in the 1950s. In this interview, Randall recalls visiting Saugatuck in his youth and living there as an adult.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Reyda, Ted (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Michigan
Saugatuck (Mich.)
Allegan County (Mich.)
Outdoor recreation
Sand dunes
Historic preservation
Oral history
Audio recordings
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Stories of Summer project, Kutsche Office of Local History. Grand Valley State University
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A related resource
Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project)
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
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Sound
Text
Format
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audio/mp3
application/pdf
Language
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eng
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/199645c64d6c68bd139cf213152a7f16.mp3
6ea606a2e279e6618e590ade368d4f01
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8ae48e5fe68f3144248883e07f639f87.pdf
f72e5d6008d176eee19b2b457b2f9ffc
PDF Text
Text
Travis Randolph- Interview by Ted Reyda
Date not mentioned
Transcriptionist’s note: TR= Ted Reyda. T= Travis Randolph
0:00 shuffles as mic is set up
0:03
T: It’s going to work in just a second? Where do you see the—ok. Right there. Ok. Cool.
0:09 TR: Uh, this is Ted Reyda, and I’m about to, uh, interview Travis Randolph, uh, and we
are at the old school house in Douglas, MI, and, uh, we can start any time you’d like, Travis.
0:25
T: Are you going to ask me questions?
0:28
TR: No. Unless you want
0:30
T: Oh. I thought you were going to be asking these questions
0:32
TR: I, I don’t have to
0:33
T: Oh.
0:34 TR: But, basically, uh, it’s your thoughts on the 50’s, 60’s, and 70’s. Now I know you
were here earlier than that. Your family’s been here for quite some time, but
0:43 T: Well, they, you know it was funny, I was thinking about it, obviously. Getting
prepared, and there were, I, I really have (pause) three lives here. Something like that, because
you know my grand parents, um, on the Randolph side were here. And my grandparent, my
grand, I never knew my grandmother. Sylvia’s mother
1:14
TR: Mmhm. The other side
1:15 T: But my grandfather, Sylvia’s father, had the big house at Silver Lake. So I had
Sylvia’s father with Silver lake, and my father’s parents were on Holland Street. So when I was
young, you know, up until 49 when my parents, my father’s parents died I, we would come. I
was born in 43, so I was you know, little. And we’d spend time here, and then time there, and
then time here, and then time there. You know, so it was back and forth, and back and forth, um,
my, my mother’s father died in 54, five years later, so we really didn’t come from the time I was
ten until the time I was, you know, from 54 until 61 we really weren’t here. That sort of thing.
Before that we were, and it was just, my memories are just childhood memories um, (pause) we,
uh, when we came back, it was essentially when we, my dad was transferred from Walkagon to
Joliet, and it, it was so much simpler to get here from Joliet then from Walkagon that we started
coming. And that was in 61. And its, how old was I then? Eighteen. Seventeen (throat clear) at
that time. And then it was just a two hour and ten-minute drive. You’d jump in the car, and you
were here in a couple hours. Um, and, uh, the um, so my memories summer time memories in
that time were from 61, until, uh, you know uh, 67 when we moved here full time. And
�3:25
TR: And here being where?
3:27
T: Saugatuck
3:28
TR: Yes, what address and
3:29
T: Oh, when we, you mean
3:32
TR: Yeah, the place
3:33 T: The place? We were, you know, the family home we call it the family pyramid, up, up
on Holland Street, 996 Holland Street. Which was, which was the Van Lewen (?) House, which
are, the two story part came from Singapore and was moved up in 1873, 74 winter. Um, the first
three Van Lewen kids were born in Singapore, and the other six were born in Saugatuck. After
1873, 74. It was my grandmother, my grandmother might have been the first one born here.
Come to think of it. Anyway, um, the um, so we spent the summers here, but you know, as I said
my mother’s father had died, had passed away in 1954. And so, uh, we were here in 61, pretty
much full time on the weekends. You know. On and off. Um, and in fact I spent the summer of
61 here, painting the house. Get, because nobody had been here, my, my father’s brother had
moved to Los Angeles, with his family. My mother’s sister had moved to Los Angeles with her
family. My mother’s sister had moved to San Diego, and we were the only ones left in the
Midwest. Everyone else was on the West Coast. And so we really didn’t spend much time here.
But it was only two hours away, after we moved to Joliet, IL, then it was, wed come up every
weekend. We had the boat here that sort of a thing.
5:26
TR: Yeah, what sort of boat was it?
5:27
T: It was, the old 210
5:28
TR: Ok
5:30 T: 30 ft, one designer. Which we originally kept up in Chessix, but we eventually moved
it down and anchored it in the river.
5:37
TR: There, there were
5:38
T: When they retired in 68
5:40 TR: There were a number of structures. Did you own the structures that were round to
the river? There was one torn down.
5:45
T: We bought that
5:46
TR: Ok.
5:48
T: And tore that down.
�5:49
TR: But you lived in one right on, uh,
5:52
T: On Holland Street. Right. The one on
5:55
TR: Did they, did you rent out the others?
5:57
T: Well, we didn’t own the other ones
5:58
TR: Oh.
5:59 T: Uh, you know, when it was all said and done, yeah, all the people that thought they
owned, uh property to the river discovered around, in the early 19, early 1900’s that they didn’t
own property to the river, to the water, and, uh, that property was quick claimed away by a
Chicago attorney and then sold off as cottages. And that’s how those cottages got in there.
6:30
TR: Ok. Ok.
6:32
T: On the back side of
6:33
TR: What year did you claim those, or buy those
6:35 T: Well let’s see, we, we, we bought the one (pause) must have been near around 65.
Somewhere in there, it came up. It was, it was really expensive. I remember that. It was (laugh)
$6500
6:50
TR: (laugh) You don’t get a garage for that
6:55
T: On the water! And then we, and then Mom bought the other one
7:01
TR: Yeah
7:01
T: From Marcelle Brook. After Marcelle passed away.
7:08
TR: And this point, from you said 65. You were about to go to college
7:10
T: Well, 61 I went to college
7:12
TR: Yeah. Oh. That’s right. Yeah.
7:14
T: In 61. So what’d I say? 61. Summer of 60 I spent here.
7:18
TR: Ok. Uh,
7:20 T: And then 60 I was, because I transferred high schools when we transferred from
Walkgeon to Joliet. I transferred high schools and that was half way through Junior year.
�7:28
TR: And you went to college, uh, yeah.
7:29 T: It was over a, the Winter, the Winter Break. Spent the summer here, summer of 1960.
Then went to Michigan, in uh, in Ann Arbor, and uh, my folks were transferred in 62. Two, you
know, when I was in the middle of my sophomore year. They were transferred to New Jersey.
And it was at that point in time where I decided that it was economically and realistically more
convenient to stop being an Illinois resident, and that rather than becoming a New Jersey resident
I became
8:05
TR: Helps tuition wise
8:06
T: A Michigan resident. Yes. But the tuition was better, all the tuition was $490
8:15
TR: Yeah, different
8:17
T: In state back then. Just 1300 out of state I think
8:20
TR: And you were playing football for a while
8:22
T: Well, momentarily, yeah
8:25
TR: Momentarily
8:25
T: Until I was injured (laugh)
8:27 TR: I don’t know if you want to make a comment. Sylvia did, Travis’ mother about
bringing some of the fraternity brothers here, for gatherings
8:35 T: Oh, we had lots of, lots of hoo-ha. You know, some of my memories would, would be
from going college which was in September 1961, running through 61 in, and those were, that
was the wild years. The, the early to mid 60’s
8:54
TR: The motorcycle gangs
8:56
T: The motorcycle gangs, the, uh,
8:58
TR: Concert time too?
9:00
T: Concert time was at the beginning of that. I think the first jazz concert was 1959
9:05
TR: Did you attend that?
9:06
one
T: Or 60. That’s what I wondered. I gave Ken a poster for, I had a poster for the second
�9:10
TR: Hopefully
9:12
T: So it’s in the collection somewhere
9:13
TR: Hopefully. Did you attend that concert?
9:16 T: No. But I did watch as my mother described it, it was raining out, um, at
Pottawattamie beach and Goshern Lake. And everybody was coming in to catch the bus after it
was over. We were having Sunday dinner in the dining room. And we looked out on Holland
Street and Mother said “it looks just like the confederates going home after the Civil War” (laugh
9:42
TR: (laugh) oh yeah
9:48 T: But it was, um, you know crazy things that happen. The memories are, um, I’m trying
to think of what year it was. Somewhere in there. These are all, these are all fragments. I’m not
sure of the chronological order is going to be. Um. there was one summer. I came up after, after
classes ended, and it was time to find a job for the summer. And I kind of hung, you know
looked around town to see what way going on and of course Tom Johnson had the Crow Bar.
Uh, at Coral Gables, and, uh, his manager was Frank Boggart. And I got talking with Frank, and
Frank said, “Why don’t you come and bus glasses?” So, and this was, this was before lunch. You
know work in the bar. Be a, be a bus boy in the bar. And I said ok. You know. I can do that. And
I left after making that date. And somebody said “What are you doing this summer” And I said”
“Well I was just talking with Frank” and they said “Why don’t you go and see Harv Buscer? He
needs someone to work construction for something they have, some project they have over in
Douglas.” So I looked up Harv Buscar, and Harv had just gotten the contract to build the first
new building in 20 years probably over at, at that time was Chase manufacturing which is the
Hayworth, Hayworth plant. And I believe it was the north building, it was, it was a great big, you
know, it was a big building. And it turns out that Chase had just gotten the contract, I think this
was 1964 or 65. Somewhere in there. They had just gotten the contract too for the dye cast, uh
headlight bezels for this new model they, Ford had introduced called the Mustang. [laugh]
11:46 TR: Oh boy!
11:47 T: And they had, they had to go, to jump quickly and build, uh, a building to put the dye
cast machine in that they needed to make the bezels and polish and everything like that, so. Let’s
see, I think it was Harv, Harv was there doing masonry. And then he had another mason. And I
was the guy who mixed the mortar and pitched the blocks
12:10 TR: By hand?
12:12 T: by hand
12:13 TR: Didn’t work with a machine
12:14 T: Well, they had a, you had a machine to mix the mortar, but you had to shovel
everything into it. And then you had to pitch blocks, and so we
�12:20 TR: Oh dear.
12:20 T: kept getting gloves from, from Chase. The guys, the folks that did the polishing on the
dye cast parts? All wore gloves. And so we’d get gloves to save our skin. And so we’d just pitch
blocks and that’s, that’s what the summer was. I ended up taking that job because it paid twice as
much as Frank did to bus dishes and glasses
12:40 TR: Did you have a car?
12:42 T: Oh yeah.
12:45 TR: Ok
12:46 T: I had my, uh, my old Volkswagen. And everybody had a Volkswagen then, right?
12:50 TR: Yeah. Well, I didn’t [laugh]
12:54 T: Well, in fact at that point in time I counted them up in our family. I think we had
seven. [laugh]
13:01 TR: The, uh, yeah. At what point did your parents come permanently?
13:05 T: They retired, um, in July of 68.
13:10 TR: Ok.
13:13 T: And Sandra and I moved up in June from Ann Arbor
13:15 TR: You didn’t mention that Sandra’s connection
13:16 T: What?
13:18 TR: Uh, you were engaged or married?
13:20 T: Oh. When did we get married? Let’s see. 66.
13:25 TR: Ok.
13:28 T: We got married in the summer of 66. Summer?
13:29 TR: And you brought her a few times to the area so she could see it?
13:30 T: Summer. Yeah. Yeah. She comes to the area and, uh, the, um, let’s see, the folks
retired in 60, 68. We bought the Elm Hotel which is what
�13:45 TR: Ok. Now being you and Sandra. Uh huh
13:47 T: Sandra and I, Sandra and I. But you know when, when Sandra and I came up in June
of 67 when I graduated. And I was working for Herman Miller and commuting from Ann Arbor
back and forth three days a week. Um, but what, so we lived in the house in 996 Holland Street.
And then the folks retired and they moved in, so all folks of us where in the house in Holland
Street. And we got along just fine. And then we ended up buying the Elm’s Hotel. 136 Butler,
which is right, it’s no longer the Elm’s Hotel, obviously. It’s, uh,
14:30 TR: Joyce Peder
14:41 T: Joyce Peder bought it, auction, and then they bought it and it became something else
and that’s where it ended up, which leaves, you know, that’s another crazy story, of, um, of the
summer time. Let’s see. We were there from 69 to 73. And one of those summers. Right in the
middle of summer. It was, you know, July, August. Somewhere in there. It was a beautiful night
and we were sitting on the front step. Right on the sidewalk, just watching people wander up and
down. It must have been 10:30, 11:00, 11:30. Something like that. And there was one fellow and
another fellow. One fellow was obviously very drunk. The other fellow was obviously holding
him up. They were working their way north on Butler street side walk on our side of the street,
the west side. And the, right out in the street there was a Volkswagen bus, mini bus parked with
some, you know that was the hippie time
15:45 TR: Yup
15:46 T: And in fact we rented to a head shop down stairs, which was very controversial in the
city. The old, with the elders. And in fact, it was, they said, at one time they said “you should not
rent to them.” And we said “Are they breaking a law?” They, we, they said “We don’t know.”
And I said “Well if you want to arrest them, we’ll stop renting to them.”
16:08 TR: Yeah
16:09 T: [laugh] It’s real simple. And until they, until you can, you know, prove that they’re
doing something, you know, it’s not practical or legal for us to not rent to them. So anyway, so
the head shop though bus was right out in front of the head shop. The guys were walking along.
And all of a sudden the other guy came from the other end. They were right in front of us. And
they all turned and went to the bus and grabbed the two or three guys, you know, up against the
bus, hand cuffs.
16:40 TR: Woah, what was
16:40 T: It was a drug bust!
16:41 TR: Oh my gosh!
16:42 T: The guy wasn’t drunk at all [laugh]
�16:43 TR: Oh he was just pretending
16:45 T: He was just pretending.
16:48 TR: Ah, the um, did you later you
16:51 T: So I think that was probably the summer of 64. Somewhere in there
16:54 TR: And some point you did shop there though
16:55 T: No
16:56 TR: No you didn’t?
16:58 T: Oh yes we did, come to think of it. We, that’s when we the, that’s when we converted
the porch on the north side, which I don’t think I’d be able to identify now, what do, what did we
call it? Celebrate was the name of the shop. Sandra, Sandra had decided to take a year off from
teaching. So she took a year off and after that she decided not to, not to go back, and we opened
the shop it was probably 6—[sigh]
17:38 TR: Obviously before you went to Europe.
17:39 T: 69, well, let’s see, we sold the, we sold the building to Joyce in 73, and went to
Europe in 73, so uh, that was probably 71. Something like that. And we had Celebrate, and, uh,
in fact I was still working with Herman Miller and, uh, I had, we had a source or, supplier down
in Columbus, IN. And I would go down to Columbus, and then, on the way back one, one day, I
took a tour in Brown County and stopped in, uh, Nashville, IN. And discovered a place called
grasshopper flats. These folks were jewelers, and I bought uh, a whole bunch of whole sale
jewelry and brought it back for our first inventory. And we just went on from there. And then I
became a jeweler
18:35 TR: Did not know that.
18:39 T: Yup. And it was, we had Marsha, Marsha Perry. Had sculptures and jewelry, and then
we got some paintings from some folks. And of course Sylvia’s stuff, and then it just sort of took
off and went. And we ran that until we sold the building and closed things up, and
18:56 TR: Yeah. I remember one amusing story of a renter upstairs and that always wore a
kimono or something like that
19:04 T: Well that was down stairs
19:05 TR: Oh, ok
19:06 T: They were, the fellow that owned the building that we bought it from was Frank Van
Analak (?) who had an antique shop across the street. Called Van Analak’s Antiques. And let’s
�see what else was across the street. Um. The shop. I can’t think what the name of it is now.
Anyway, and we bought the building from Frank. And he had a compatriot. A partner named
George. And they lived downstairs and Sandra and I lived upstairs. And what was upstairs was
eight hotel rooms which we gutted and turned into a real nice apartment. And George and Frank
lived downstairs, and George had this very short kimono, silk kimono with great huge gold,
goldfish and a quart goblet of beer and a cigarette holder. [laugh] He was, he was quite a fellow
20:08 TR: Yeah. And at what point did you um, then go to Europe?
20:15 T: Um, that was in 73. And, and that was, we went through the process. We sold the
building to Joyce, and um, we had sort of, um, we’d be ready to, uh, because Sandra’s, Sandra’s
father is from Denmark. Immigrated from Denmark, and she has lots of family in Denmark, and
had gone back and forth a number of times. And so we were going to go and settle in Denmark,
and unfortunately we arrived on the day of the Yom Kippur War
20:45 TR: Oh dear. Yeah
20:50 T: Um, which led to the oil embargo
20:55 TR: Became expensive
20:56 T: And not only became expensive, it became impossible to get.
21:00 TR: Yeah
21:01 T: And uh, the Europeans essentially went on a war, you know, World War Two footing
as far as no hot water. Things that turned the lights off. That sort of thing. And it was, Sandra’s
grandmother, we, we spent time with Sandra’s grandmother in Copenhagen. And she said it was
just like World War Two.
21:20 TR: Oh boy
21:22 T: You know no different. No different at all.
21:25 TR: I was just thinking, prior to your sailing experiences on Lake Michigan I remember
that when you were much younger that thought about sailing from Kenosha over to
21:35 T: Well we, that was the summer of 1960. The first summer we, no. Yes. It was the
summer of 1960, the year we painted the house a friend of mine from Walkagen came and we
spent the summer together in Saugatuck painting the house and working on the boat and half way
through summer we, you know, a couple of irrational kids [laugh] went out sailing and, uh, said
“Let’s go across the lake.” And we essentially went across the lake with a couple of apples and a
radio
22:15 TR: And the radio was for what reason?
�22:18 T: Direction finder. We could rotate the radio and null in and we knew that when we lost
the signal we were aimed right at the tower, and we knew what the tower was. So we sailed
across. We were going to go to Walkegon, but the weather changed and we ended up going to
Kenosha, and stayed there overnight, and then sailed down from Kenosha to Walkegon and spent
a few days in Walkegon and then
22:45 TR: What was your family’s uh, reaction to that
22:49 T: Well they were speechless so to speak. And then we sailed down to uh, Chicago. This
was when, back then, they had a Chicago Saugatuck race. And so we sailed down to Chicago and
picked my dad up in Chicago. And he brought the compass. It was handy. It wouldn’t, you know,
the radio was not dependable enough.
23:10 TR: Batteries and things yeah.
22:13 T: So he brought the compass, and then we sailed back from Chicago to Saugatuck. And
had lots of fun
23:20 TR: Oh yes, uh, adventures, adventures of youth, uh. What’s the earliest, age was, do you
think that you were ever here?
23:30 T: Well. As I said, I, you know. Came as a baby
23:37 TR: From both sides. That’s what I thought
23:38 T: as a baby. Uh, on both sides. You know, we came a lot. We came fairly. We came for
a couple weeks every summer from as early as I can remember until 1949. My grandmother died
in, gee, I think it was April of 49. And, uh, she had a series of strokes. And I never saw her out of
bed
24:04 TR: Wow. That’s an interesting memory, that’s wow.
24:07 T: Yeah. I never saw her saw her out of bed. She was always in the front room in bed.
And, uh, the antiseptic order.
24:15 TR: Yes
24:16 T: Was intense. But that was, that was, you know, an unfortunate phenomenon. And, uh,
my grandfather, her husband, um, Loring Randolph, um, died I think it was in July of 49.
Apparently some folks accused, said it was food poisoning, and others said he just was alone and
didn’t have the need to go on.
24:45 TR: Yes. Alone. All that. Oh. When you came with your, some of your fraternity
brothers, what, what things did you do?
24:53 T: Well, let’s see
�24:54 TR: You had the sailboat here
24:54 T: We had the sailboat here
24:57 TR: That only took so many people
24:58 T: But you know, we didn’t have that many fraternity brothers, um that were a part of the
gang. We used to do things like drink.
25:07 TR: Uh huh. Water? [laugh]
25:08 T: [laugh] Um. And we used to have Grand Prix racing.
25:10 TR: With the sailboats or with cars?
25:14 T: No, with my Volkswagen from the front yard into the backyard and the backyard into
the front yard.
25:20 TR: Oh my gosh!
25:22 T: [laugh]
25:23 TR: There was a cottage there so you wouldn’t have gone in the river
25:27 T: We wouldn’t have gone into the river. But we, we used to race the Volkswagen out of
the front yard and into the front yard. Um, one summer, one night I recall, um, somebody
brought fireworks, and we were shooting them off in the house. And the police came to the front
door and said “We’ve heard reports of shots” and I stood there at the front door, the screen door,
and I said “No, I haven’t, we haven’t heard any shots.” And the wind was out of the west like it
typically is. And of course the fire cracker smoke was going out through the screen from around
me and around the police officer [laugh]
26:14 TR: And what police officer was it?
26:15 T: Oh, I don’t know. It wasn’t Lyle.
26:16 TR: Ok. It wasn’t Lyle
26:18 T: It wasn’t Lyle. It was, it was, one of the summer fellows.
26:20 TR: Yeah. There was the summer things so they, so you would cook there, or go to
restaurants
26:25 T: We’d, we’d cook. Oh! Best hamburgers in the world were at the Redwood.
�26:30 TR: Redwood? Where was that located?
26:32 T: The Redwood is, uh, was a drive in that was over in Douglas, um, what was the, the,
she just died. The gal who owned it, um, cross, the, it was across the east side of the street from
Chase from Hayworth
26:45 TR: Ok. Yeah. Oh yeah
26:47 T: Um, but right in back. Way in back. In fact I was looking at it, at it, at it, uh, a couple
of days ago on Google Earth, and you can see in, where the canopy parking spots
27:04 TR: Oh, so it was a drive in type thing? Oh wow
27:06 T: Yeah, but they had they had really, really good hamburgers. I used to eat the
hamburgers a lot
27:15 TR: Did you ever go to the Rootbeer, uh
27:17 T: Oh yes. Nicki’s!
27:18 TR: Nicki!
27:19 T: Nicki used to run the food service and Nicki used to work ther
27:20 TR: Yes, and Nicki was an attraction
27:24 T: And we, we, we’d get foot longs and hot dogs. Or foot longs and rootbeer, and had
great fun
27:34 TR: What, I, I heard was that she was also the some of the joy was going there because
she was very much voluptuous young lady
27:40 T: She was a draw. She was a draw [laugh]
27:42 TR: Yes. Right. Um, the, um, did you go to the beach? Or anything like that?
27:50 T: Oh, sure, we’d go to the beach. What else did we do?
27:53 TR: They, they were, I
27:58 T: We just, we just had endless parties
28:02 TR: Ah, and that
28:04 T: That was ,that was pretty much it was, the when you were here it was an endless party
�28:08 TR: Right. Until you got engaged and got married and things changed
28:13 T: Then things changed. Hopefully. They’re supposed to, right?
28:18 TR: Yeah. The, um, the, most of the people that partied with you were from Ann Arbor,
not the, you know, did you get to know the local people also your age?
28:25 T: Well Pete, uh, Peter Curtis, who was a bar tender. You know the whole Curtis clan,
Pete was a resident, local resident, but he had cousins that were, uh, Curtis’s from St. Louis.
Then they all lived by Clear Cove.
28:40 TR: Yeah, did
28:43 T: And so there was there was that bunch and the Collins, Collins’s, and
28:48 TR: The Pavilion was still there
28:52 T: The Pavilion burned down Friday, May 6, 1960.
28:55 TR: Ok.
28:55 T: And we were driving up from Joliet. And we could see the light in the sky, um, just
north of South Haven.
29:04 TR: Woah.
29:05 T: And the closer we got the brighter it got. And that was just you know, after sun set
29:14 TR: Wow, what, well
29:15 T: In May, so that was
29:18 TR: Brightest spot on the lake and it went out that way.
29:20 T: And, I, it was, it was an amazing thing. It, there was, you know, the one, it’s a shame
we never got the chance to get an oral history from my dad
29:31 TR: Yeah
29:32 T: Because he was, uh, let’s see, the Pavilion was built in what? 1909?
29:38 TR: Yes. I think
29:38 T: Something like that. And he worked, he was born in 1903. Yes. 1903. And he and
Dode Wilson used to do the electrical maintenance there when he was a kid. So that would have
�been the teens. Somewhere in there. Late teens. And he would talk about about he used to climb
up the arches and change the light bulbs [laugh]
30:07 TR: Oh boy. Oh boy. The uh, if you cooked at home, where were the grocery stores?
30:10 T: Oh. Fen, where was it?
30:15 TR: In Douglas or downtown Saugatuck?
30:19 T: In Douglas, in Douglas, it was, um was it Van Harten’s? Or was that, was that
Fennville?
30:25 TR: I’ve never heard of it.
30:28 T: It was in Douglas on the north side of the street. Where, where they had the fire.
Across from, right across the street from, uh, the ballpark
30:40 TR: So there wasn’t a super valloo or anything like that
30:42 T: Oh no, no, that wasn’t there. There was nothing there then
30:45 TR: But Saugatuck didn’t have any little groceries? Or anything?
30:48 T: At that time?
30:50 TR: Yeah. No?
30:50 T: I don’t recall any. There might of, uh, you know there might have been. I don’t think
so, Ted. I don’t think so. That seems hard to believe, but the middle of the block, where Funks
was, was Funks. And I think that was a grocery originally. And then on the corner the uh, where
Larry is Pumpernickels was a grocery. But that was not a grocery then I don’t think
31:20 TR: I’ll be darned.
31:21 T: I don’t, you know, one of things that was really nice, the bakery in Douglas. There
was a Douglas bakery that was on the north side of the street. Um, you know, right across from
everyday people and then down a couple of doors. It’s probably right about where Wild Dog is
now. Somewhere in there. They used to have
31:42 TR: So it was breads and doughnuts and sweets?
31:45 T: They had an almond coffee cake
31:50 TR: Oh boy
�31:51 T: That every Sunday everybody in the township would stop and get an almond coffee
cake and go home and have breakfast with the almond coffee cake. It was out of this world
32:03 TR: Ah. The, uh, when your mother moved here, of course she attended the Christian
Science church. Did she make you go or anything like that?
32:10 T: No. No
32:11 TR: No? She was fine with it
32:14 T: Not really. It was always uh, you know my father was brought up in the church,
Christian Science church
32:22 TR: I did not know that
32:25 T: The well, the Randolph’s. The Fitz Randolph’s had, had a, the ones that came from
England in the 1600’s, they, uh, ended up being the first generation ended up, they uh, founding
the seventh day Baptist church in North America. Which was just beginning in England. So there
was this fairly strong Baptist hook in the family, um, but my father and his parents were
Christian Scientists. In fact, my parents met at the Christian Science Church in college. That’s
where, that’s where they met, going to the Christian Science Church
33:12 TR: And did, was there one existing in Saugatuck at that time, or was it in Fennville?
33:18 T: No, it was in Saugatuck
33:19 TR: Saugatuck, ok.
33:20 T: It was, it was, I think the church that’s on the village green on the south, uh, I, uh, was
built in the 20’s.
33:32 TR: I think yes
33:33 T: Something like that.
33:34 TR: The, uh, whole, you know, uh, gentrifying, I guess term, of making it look more
fashionable. Cleaned up the city hall and all that. But do you remember when, next to the
Christian Science, the hotel Casa Blanca burned.
33:50 T: mm hm.
33:53 TR: So, I know Slyvia
33:54 T: I was, I was at work in Zealand
33:57 TR: At the bar. Oh. In Zealand, oh! Herman Miller. Ok
�33:59 T: Yeah. That was, that was, oh.
34:00 TR: Well I know Sylvia mentioned that
34:09 T: It was 67 or 68. Somewhere, or 66, 66, or 68. Somewhere, somewhere right in there
because I got to work and somebody, somebody was, or I was at work and somebody said “Gee
there’s a hotel burning in Saugatuck.” And I said, because we had a hotel [laugh] so I quick got
on the phone. They said “No, no. It’s not the Elms. It’s the, uh, the Casa Blanca.” [clear throat]
34:34 TR: And Sylvia, as I remember, said they were splashing water on the Christian Science
and saying whatever they had to say because the walls were really hot
34:42 T: Yeah the walls were, the walls were hot. Yeah. The, um, the um, that’s in, Saugatuck
has been lucky. God! What luck! To go through what this series of fires between, and I’m sure
there’s others that I don’t know about because I hadn’t been there that long, but you know there
was a hotel down, there was a hotel down, a wooden hotel down where Ship n’ shore is now. I
think that burned, and the city didn’t burn
35:10 TR: Quite possibly. Yeah
35:14 T: There was, oh, there was the Pavilion, and the city didn’t burn
35:19 TR: Some cottages did across the river, yeah. I know
35:24 T: There was the Casa Blanca. And the house next door, but the city didn’t go. And there
was the house behind the house behind the Elms that we owned that burned. On Halloween. And
the city didn’t go
35:42 TR: I guess it’s meant to be.
35:45 T: We’ve had a combination of good firemen and good luck that the city and all of its
wooden buildings are still here.
35:53 TR: Do you remember the fruit growers’ bank?
35:56 T: Of course
35:58 TR: They, they tore it down.
35:59 T: They tore it, in fact I got a lot of brick. That’s where all the paving bricks when they,
then
36:03 TR: I know those bricks.
�36:08 T: When they tore it down I got a whole bunch of bricks and tore all the mortar off them
and did all the paving for the Elm’s hotel. Cause it was right there on the corner where the rose,
rose garden is.
36:18 TR: Yes. Just across the street more or less
36:20 T: Yeah. Just across the street. So I’d take the wheel barrow over there and pick up
bricks and bring them
36:27 TR: The, um, the , what year was the, did the buyer tear down the upper stories of the
hotel?
36:32 T: It was early. It was fairly early I want to say it was, maybe, you know, maybe 63, 4
somewhere
36:40 TR: Yeah. Because I have a picture that just shows the side of it and cars around it
seemed to be early 60’s yeah. So
36:48 T: Yeah. It was somewhere in there.
36:52 TR: Which, I guess, it just wasn’t economical to
36:55 T: Well, you know my grandmother, my grandfather, Ben Lewen Martinez, who was the
one who lived who worked at Singapore was a sawyer in the mill. One of the mills. And they
moved the house up on the ice winter of 73, 74, to where it is now on Holland Street
37:15 TR: 18
37:17 T: 1873, yeah. 73, 74. And added on to it within a couple of years because they had this
family that was growing like Topsy. He had, he had farms out around the area. In fact, he had
one on what’s the street that runs to the Dug way? Or runs to the entrance to the
37:40 TR: Oh it’s the Dugout road?
37:42 T: No, it’s not the Dugout road, but is that 136th that runs by the Pumphouse gym and
back towards Dennis’ entry, driveway entry?
37:52 TR: Yeah.
37:53 T: I think it’s 136th. Um, avenue. Avenue. In Allegan County. Um. He had a couple
farms out there.
38:08 TR: And growing produce or whatever
38:08 T: I don’t know what he grew, but yeah, he must have grown produce or something. He
was kicked by a mule and got blood poisoning. And died at age 50
�38:20 TR: Oh boy
38:21 T: So that left, you know, that left his wife Margaret Boss. Just as an aside, there was,
there was a mass wedding in mid December. I think it was December 15th 1868 where there,
there were numerous young couples who got married. All Dutch. You know
38:48 TR: More economical maybe? [laugh]
38:50 T: Well, well it was, the Civil War was over. You know. So it was time to get on with
everything with life. Etc. etc. Etc. And, uh, they had, there was this mass’ wedding of, and one of
one of those couples was Martinez Van Lewuen, who at that time lived at Singapore, and
Margaret Boss who was from Zealand. And they got married and moved into a company house
in Singapore and started their family, which you know. So they got married in December 68. The
house was moved in 74, call it that way, so it’s five years or so. Something like that. And they
already had three kids in Singapore, and the house, and he came over in like 1854. Let’s see he
came over in 1864, and he was 10 years old or something like that. So he may have been, so
anyway, he, he, he, he, he was killed got blood poisoning from the injury with the mule and died
and left her with 9 kids and she, Margaret Boss, um, did the laundry in the Butler hotel
40:07 TR: Woah. Yeah?
40:10 T: She was, she that was the job she had because she couldn’t farm
40:14 TR: Support, yeah
40:15 T: And she, and, uh, so she worked, worked all the linens in the Butler
40:20 TR: So all those people. Yeah.
40:21 T: All those people. Stories that are gone
40:26 TR: I don’t know if you want to mention because I don’t know if you were joking or not
about the house on Holland Street when you changed walls and things that there seemed to be
some of the relatives telling you things
40:40 T: [laugh] No, I clearly remember that, but you know, I suppose you can be crazy.
40:48 TR: No
40:48 T: One day I woke up and was laying there in bed all of a sudden I heard this voice. And
I looked out into the into the other room. And there was my grandfather. And he said “I want you
to stop using the trapdoor in the kitchen to get into the basement and reopen the outside
entrance.” And I immediately got up and opened the outside entrance. And that was the end of it.
I’ve never seen him again
�41:17 TR: That was, who knows why
41:18 T: Who knows why
41:19 TR: The messenger was there
41:21 T: Yeah the message was there. And apparently he wasn’t comfortable with that.
41:28 TR: So that
41:29 T: entry. He liked the outside entry
41:31 TR: property, the property on Holland Street was empty. You didn’t have to tear
anything down to, when you brought the house from Singapore?
41:38 T: Well there was nothing there. It was vacant property
41:39 TR: Oh there was nothing there. But what the cottages on the river behind it
41:44 T: They weren’t built for another 40 years
41:45 TR Oh, it was after when you guys were, ok
41:47 T: They moved the house in the 1870’s and the cottages along the river weren’t built
until the 1910’s and 20’s
41:51 TR: That’s what I thought, yeah
41:53 T: So there was nothing there. You know, it was, it was empty, there was, and in fact it
was really empty because there were no trees.
42:06 TR: Really?
42:07 T: They cut everything down to ship back and rebuild Chicago
42:10 TR: But that, wasn’t the stable
42:14 T: Chicago, the Chicago fire was October 8 and 9 1871, which happened to be, it wasn’t
just Chicago. The Petshigo fire was the same day. Southern Michigan burned from Manistee all
the way to the thumb.
42:28 TR: Yeah. Holland. Yeah
42:28 T: All the way across. The Holland fire. If you look at there, I was, there
�42:32 TR: We were saved I guess by the water. Surrounded by so much water who knows?
42:38 T: Who knows?
42:39 TR: Fate. Whatever. Lucked out
42:40 T: Just, who knows. We lucked out yeah, but there was there was an incredible there was
a huge drought going on for a couple of years. And there was this tremendous low pressure area
that developed. It ran from San Diego to, to um, Toronto.
42:58 TR: Yeah. Dry as a grave
43:02 T: Just a great counter clockwise circulation that accelerated and accelerated and
accelerated. And the whole thing started out a couple days before that. Before the 8th. It started
out as prairie fires. In Kansas. And the prairie fires
43:18 TR: By lightening or something most likely
43:20 T: Probably. Or spontaneous whatever. But it all, everything moved toward Chicago.
And of course the prairie ends right there, right there at the western limits, and just went on
through. But of course that was the era of building railroads and you know when you got into the
woods like we had in Michigan or we had in Wisconsin, they, they were making ties and tressel
beams. And all they’d do is cut a tree down, top it off, take the heads off
43:52 TR: Off of, yeah
43:53 T: and leave a stack of trash the log would leave and just turn into
43:57 TR: Yeah. It was just waiting. Tragedy
43:58 T: Just, you know 2500 people died in the Petshigo fire
44:04 TR: I know. Worse than Chicago or anywhere else
44:05 T: Oh yeah. It was crazy
44:07 TR: They rarely talk about that
44:07 T: So that was October of 71. Well the next thing was next, the following spring was,
you know, everybody went out and started logging and making shingles and 2X4’s, well, they
didn’t have 2X4’s. But shingles and studs. 2X4’s weren’t invented until 1920. [cough] and the
shipped them back to Chicago, well by 1973 the white pines were gone in southern Michigan.
They closed the mills and the mills, the main mill, that was in Singapore
44:38 TR: went up
�44:42 T: Went up to, uh, the Northside of the strait. What is, what is that?
44:44 TR: St. Ignace yeah.
44:45 T: St Ignace! St. Ignace.
44:46 TR: But at some point too they were stripping all the hemlock bark for the tanneries. I
understand
44:52 T: Yes. That’s true too. So white pine went to construction and hemlock went to
44:58 TR: It’s no wonder why Mt. Baldhead started moving
45:00 T: Exactly
45:03 TR: And they feared it was going to dam the river and flood the town
45:04 T: yeah. Well, you know the interesting one was the family always used to talk about
going and looking for Indian Beads. We called them Indian Beads, because they were Indian
Beads but what they were was fish vertebrae. That would show up and you know fish would
wash up on the beach and then eventually, well there was a huge sand dune just on the west side
of the basin.
45:34 TR: Yes because Sylvia once, your mother once showed me pictures, I said “I do not
recognize”
45:38 T: It’s all gone
45:41 TR: Yeah. And it’s, I, I
45:43 T: It blew away. There was a huge sand dune there and, and of course when they put the
entry in I think they straightened out instead of going
45:54 TR: Yeah. Turn of the century
45:55 T: to the oxbow and out where the pilings are down at the beach, they uh, I think they put
that in in 1907. Somewhere in there
46:04 TR: It was just at the turn of the century. Yeah. And that amazed how that filled in and
blocked that, that other channel. Like in a couple of winters
46:15 T: Well, it also depends on what the lake level is. Because I’ve gone in there with
outboard from the oxbow in the river.
46:24 TR: I’ve we’ve went in with a canoe one time when it was high
�46:25 T: Canoe. Canoe. I went in with an outboard once.
46:30 TR: Did you always have stairs down to the river, well, you didn’t own the property
46:32 T: of some sort. We didn’t own the property but
46:36 TR: They let you repairing rights or whatever
46:38 T: Well people are always claimed they had a, a, you know, and easement, but when it
was all said and done there was no easement. But, uh we always used to go down there and come
and go.
46:52 TR: Of, of the families now, how many of them can you say some relatives still live in
the area? Obviously
46:59 T: Of, uh, what families? My family?
47:03 TR: Your, your, your family no. But of that of that area of the 50’s and the 60’s, how
many families are still here do you think? Of some relatives that have stayed? The Randolph’s
have obviously stayed over yeah.
47:16 T: The Randolph’s are around, yeah.
47:20 TR: Because I’m a new comer
47:22 T: You’re a new comer. Ted, you know a lot of people, there are a lot of people that are
next generation. That, that, that continue and beyond next generation
47:30 TR: Yeah. You look at the cemetery. Yeah. Like the Divines that built my house
47:30 T: And into the third generation.
47:38 TR: You go to the cemeteries and you see all these names and oh wow. I’ve heard that
name. And I wonder if those are still relatives or what. That type of thing.
47:45 T: Mmhm. No that, there are, there are a lot of them here.
47:50 TR: yeah. The uh
47:52 T: Unfortunately, the, you know, some families just came to a halt, of course, but not that
many people moved away. This is an awfully nice place to live [laugh]
48:02 TR: Well, geographically I know. RJ always complained, you know the Kalamazoo lake
is going to silt up and you’re not going to be able to use it. We still have that beautiful lake out
�there, and I don’t know how much you can destroy Lake Michigan. You know. Some people try.
Geographically, it’s a gorgeous area with the parks that we have. Wow. I can’t
48:20 T: The parks the cultural attributes. Terrific
48:28 TR: I’m just amazed at all the buildings in Douglas going on and the con, you know the
condos. Just you know, in Douglas. Just continuous. You know, wow. They, I don’t know how
desirable it is to live in Holland, but we’re so close. You commuted
48:47 T: Oh yeah. It’s only ten minutes away
48:48 TR: You commuted to Herman Miller, and uh, it’s a lot nicer than place in Holland for
sure [laugh]
48:56 T: [laugh]
48:57 TR: And, uh, I, uh, can you think of any other little incidents or whatever
49:08 T: The um, I’m sure it’ll come, it’ll come, there’ll be things that I
49:13 TR: Yeah. Later. What was Sandra’s, your wife’s, uh, your future wife’s uh, impression
of Saugatuck.
49:23 T: Oh she loved it. It was, yeah, you know
49:27 TR: Yeah. You didn’t have to really talk it up or anything like that
49:30 T: Well, she’s a Detroit gal. You know
49:31 TR: Yeah. Suburbs and
49:34 T: And it was
49:35 TR: A bit rural
49:36 T: huh? It was a bit rural. And you know amazingly, what’s incredible now, it’s over. My
daughter was here with her family
49:43 TR: From New York City
49:44 T: From New York. Uh. Just over the fourth. And she said “you know, you forget about
how for a town, or for a community like Douglas and Saugatuck that is technically a very small
community” You know we’re two thousand people
50:07 TR: yes. It’s getting less and less population
�50:09 T: There is an amazing amount of culture here. And there, you just can’t run out of stuff
to do. It’s very difficult. You know. It is a very desirable place to live.
50:25 TR: You’re on the board now of the SCA
50:28 T: Center for the arts. Yeah.
50:30 TR: Yeah. And, uh, I remember I though, how are they going to justify all that. But they
have. Just like the historical society which now is called the history center. How it’s grown. And
it just amazes me. The willingness of people to, to give back to the community, you know. In
some way
50:48 T: Well, you know, and we have this, this, uh. It’s like Chris. Chris, Chris lives here.
Chris is not a resident. Right?
50:55 TR: Mmhmm. That’s the majority of the people
50:58 T: He’s a resident of Palm Springs. I saw the California plate. And there’s so many
people that have this attitude that this is an incredibly nice place to be between May and October.
And it’s so true.
51:20 TR: Yeah. But winters can be interesting if you’re not commuting and things that. The
cross country skiing we’ve done and all that. That stuff, but uh
51:28 T: We just, we just need to get some more young people. More young people and that’s
all. But then of course then the cost of real estate’s that they’re not going to be inside the city.
They’re going to be outside the cities
51:38 TR: Yes. In the township or yes. Prices, just
51:45 T: [laugh]
51:48 TR: Just amazing. Yeah. Uh, do you think that Barret, your son, will stay in the area?
51:52 T: Yeah. Yeah
51:54 TR: He, he’s happy working for Herman Miller like you did, and, you think there’s any
chance he’ll, what do you think he’ll do with the properties. Have there been conversations about
that or will Barret continue on with something, or you don’t know or just?
52:12 T: I, I, I dare say that, well the problem is we’ve got Holland Street, we’ve got River side
Drive, and we’ve got Mason Street. Mason Street is commercial, and Sandra has to decide what
she wants to do with that. Holland Street is the family pyramid and that’s place for anybody that
wants to come and stay, and
52:32 TR: Yeah, but
�52:34 T: I don’t see us selling Riverside Drive and moving to Holland Street. I don’t see that
happening, but I don’t see us selling Holland Street.
52:40 TR: No. No. But what about the works
52:42 T: Oh the works
52:43 TR: and all of that
52:44 T: Oh that’ll get bulldozed someday, and we’ll put up a new place. A studio for an artist
and sell that. Something like that
52:52 TR: Ok. Yeah. Around your
52:54 T: But that’s priceless too because now it’s, now it’s surrounded by conserved land.
52:59 TR: yes. I was going to bring that up. We’ve all hiked through there. That, that’s a
wonderful gift back to the community is that. And that’s why Riverside Drive people are tearing
down houses and building bigger, and I guess better for them. Yeah
53:16 T: [laugh] And of course we’ve got to protect because we bought the most, you know.
We own the, the, what. That chunk and that chunk and that chunk and that chunk.
53:28 TR: Yeah.
53:30 T: And the orchard
53:31 TR: And your neighbors have chunks
53:32 T: And the Mowers have two chunks. So all the orchard and all the way over to Holland
Street is protected now
53:40 TR: When you moved back to, uh, Saugatuck after Europe you had, you bought the
cottage? On Riverside Drive?
53:48 T: Yeah.
53:50 TR: And your plans were to to convert it in somewhere or to build it
53:55 T: Well you know we were looking, we were looking. It was between the house were we
are on Riverside Drive and one over on Lake shore Drive in Douglas.
54:03 TR: Did not know that. Ah
�54:08 T: Yeah. We were trying on the beach. We were trying to decide did we want to be on
the river or on the beach. And we made the big mistake
54:15 TR: Oh.
54:15 T: We didn’t buy both of them [laugh]
54:16 TR: Yes. I can see the river because of the sailboat.
54:20 T: We should have bought both of them.
54:22 TR: Yeah I guess that’s sort of my understanding
54:23 T: Spend the winter on the river and the summer on the beach
54:26 TR: yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, so you, it was a choice of modifying the cottage on
Riverside Drive or tearing it down
54:37 T: Well it, well it was remodel. You know. Addition. Addition. Addition. Addition. And
then you know, it just got to the point where it was just time to. It was officially a remodeling. A
remodeling with a bulldozer. Because we kept a piece of wall and a piece of floor. So it was
officially a remodeling
54:55 TR: Yeah. And until about the, the situation though. Like we had that lunch. Why we
could be that close to the river, and those neighbors saying
55:04 T: Because it needed, you know, it was an existing non-conforming, so the existing
footprint. We had to stay in the footprint, or match the footprint. Which we did
55:15 TR: And so, somebody now could not build that close to the river, so it’s unique
55:19 T: no, because they put it back, you know from before. The setback now from the water
is 75 feet. The previous setback was unstated. It’s just like next to Sylvia, um, in the house, that,
that was a waterfront lot. They hadn’t gotten around to determining what a waterfront lot was in
the zoning. So that lot had a rear set back of ten feet. And the rear line was the water. So that’s
why that house is ten feet from the water. Then they changed it to 25 inside the city of
Saugatuck. So you can’t build closer than 25 feet.
56:00 TR: So you got the unique situation, which is wonderful. The, uh, through the years have
you seen a difference between, uh, the ownership of boat type things being the opposite of
sailboats to powerboats. Have it always been about equal or, or, or what?
56:20 T: Well no, you know before there were powerboats there were nothing but sailboats.
Obviously
�56:28 TR: So there’s fewer and fewer
56:29 T: So there’s fewer sailboats and more you know, but now when the price of gas when
through the roof, everybody bought a hard bottom inflatable. And they learned how to run little
tiny hard bottom inflatables, and now they do that. Of course the personal water craft have gone
through a, through. What, what’s this year? This year we went out, Loring and Aaron, my
daughter and son in law
56:55 TR: The river queen?
56:56 T: No
56:56 TR: No
56:57 T: They went on to the retro, to the retro electric boat guys. Last year they rented one of
the retro electric boats. This year they went down and rented a new boat which they have a series
of doughnut boats [laugh]
57:10 TR: Yes. Oh we were talking about that
57:11 T: And we went out on a doughnut boat one afternoon. What a laugh
57:14 TR: How things have changed [laugh]
57:17 T: How things have changed. The one thing I will say is, and it goes along with the
comments about real estate and real estate values is the slips are half the size they should be
57:28 TR: Really?
57:30 T: If the slips were twice as big
57:32 TR: You’d have bigger boats
57:33 T: You’d have bigger boats. And real estate would be worth more
57:34 TR: Maybe that’s a blessing in disguise. Uh, because I often thought about
57:37 T: That’s one of the biggest prob, right now that’s one of the biggest constraints on
property values. Is size, is the size of a slip.
57:50 TR: Is that why your neighbor bought a one, to keep a boat? Because they were on Lake
Michigan? Didn’t they own something on Lake Michigan?
57:55 T: Yeah. Yeah. That’s right. They did. They had a pool on the Lake shore drive, south of
the washout. Patrick
�57:58 TR: So it’s an advantage obviously to have a home on the river because you can keep a
boat, and, uh, and the size, some big boats
58:06 T: Right, and uh. You can keep some big boats. And Dick Hayworth’s got the A’ frame,
and Dick’s Eagle Feather’s 70 feet.
58:18 TR: Yeah, I, people talk about it. I haven’t see it. He obviously hasn’t invited me, so
that’s all right.
58:25 T: No. And Lucy Penguin’s down there now. They had, they bought Kelly’s, and, uh,
Lucy Penguin’s got to be in the same class.
58:34 TR: Yeah. Well now we see helicopters buzzing over, and people commuting, and geez.
That’s
58:40 T: But something it’s just like you know, if, if, if, if the Dennison property goes through
and they build what
58:50 TR: Well, it has gone through. Yes.
58:51 T: Well, who knows. Um. But if that, if they build big slips, there’s going to be big boats,
and that’s going to change the whole well
59:00 TR: I can imagine because people shop. Do they shop or do they go to restaurants? Do
they support the arts?
59:08 T: Oh, I think you’ll find they do.
59:10 TR: I hope so
59:12 T: They do, do, uh, do, and they’re also 8 minutes away from a jet port. [laugh]
59:15 TR: yup, yup, yeah, oh boy. So. We, uh, there is a future. Your property might be pretty
good
59:18 T: Things, things, things, things could change rapidly
59:28 TR: Yeah, I’m surprised at some of the sizes I see now. And I never thought about this.
Size of the slips, and yeah. What, what do you feel about Douglas buying the Tower marine? Just
just does that seem feasible or right?
59:38 T: well, you know the fiscal, fiscal, reality of a city, of the city having a municipal
marina
59:48 TR: There are some in Michigan
�59:50 T: Yes. You cannot get government grants to improve your waterfront
59:57 TR: Unless you own
59:59 T: Unless you own a municipal marina. And Douglas now has a municipal marina in
fact, between
1:00:08
TR: That one on the bayou
1:00:10
T: on the bayou side, between Bud Max’s place and Notten’s between the two,
they are now officially, they’re now in they now qualify to get grants. To get federal grants.
Saugatuck does not have a municipal marina. So it doesn’t qualify. It doesn’t get municipal
grants. Federal grants
1:00:30
TR: Interesting
1:00:31
T: To move their water front. And if they did, which would be Saugatuck yacht
service. If they did do something like purchase that then they’d qualify and both of the cities
could combine their grantage and get enough money to dredge Kalamazoo Lake. So there, there
is logic
1:00:45
TR: Ah. That’s the point that is being made
1:00:53
T: to it. There is logic to it. It would take the property off the tax rolls, but it
would replace it with grant money coming from the federal government. So.
1:01:04
of the area
TR: Ah. Yeah and that was one of the questions there: what do you see the future
1:01:12
T: [pause] it’s not going to go downhill.
1:01:15
TR: Not going to go downhill?
1:01:16
T: uh uh
1:01:17
TR: Yeah we do have
1:01:18
T: We’ve got one of the best school systems in the state
1:01:20
TR: We do
1:01:21
T: We’ve got, you know and an incredible community full of with you know. One
of the great strengths of Saugatuck Douglas is diversity. And you can just see it. This place just
reeks of quality, skilled talented people
1:01:40
TR: [laugh] I would agree
�1:01:42
T: And it is amazing. It’s just wonderful. And that’s not going to change.
1:01:45
TR: I remember when
1:01:46
T: They may go away in the winter. They may go to Palm Springs, or they may
go to Miami, but in the summer they’re all going to be here
1:01:55
TR: Yeah. You want to be here. Yeah. I remember when your wife Sandra sold
me my house you know, on Butler Street. Then I was thinking of buying something in Holland
and you said you do not want to be in Holland. You do not want to be in, and Holland was very
different. Holland then. I’m glad I took your advice there
1:02:14
T: Yes. It was a very different Holland then [laugh]
1:02: 20
TR: The, uh, any other thoughts or comments or, I know that you said later on
that things might occur to you they could follow up. It would be nice to get Sandra to you know
do a little oral history
1:02:30
T: Well she can tell you the story of being a retailer
1:02:35
TR: Retail! Yes. Very important. Yes, still is in there. Retail
1:02:40
T: mm hm, and she, now she was on the school board for 18 years.
1:02:45
TR: Yup, and she knows that—oh! With your uh, company Sipeto (?) up in
Zealand. I assume it’s Zealand?
1:02:50
T: yup
1:02:51
TR: yeah. Did you ever think about it, having a manufacturing plant here?
1:03:03
T: The, um, the Hayworth plant sings a siren’s song [laugh]
1:03:05
TR: ok. Ok
1:03:08
T: The problem is that they, you know, who was it? Scot Gearlings, the developer
went through went through a lot of, I was part of the package trying to get the remediation done
for the contamination. It has just gone on and on and on and on
1:03:25
TR: And will
1:03:30
T: and hasn’t happened. And if that would happen, then it would go.
1:03:32
TR: Isn’t that interesting
�1:03:34
T: The other side of that is, is uh, I mean there’s a 7-acre plant there. 7 acre piece
of property that has a 150,000 square of building sprinkled
1:03:45
TR: Ready
1:03:48
T: Ready to go with the powder coat line in place. You know. It’s just sitting
there. If they’d just remediate the place so that you could turn it into something.
1:03:58
TR: Isn’t it interesting that I found out that you helped build part of that. The
connection. What comes around is truly amazing
1:04:08
T: Yeah. What comes around comes around. You can’t escape it.
1:04:10
TR: Right. I, um, yeah. In our lifetime, we obviously have seen a lot of changes
and, uh, I don’t know how long we’re going to live, but it seems the pace is even faster. The
building and all those things and all that.
1:04:28
T: How long we’ll live. I’m on my third life time now [laugh]
1:04:29
TR: We don’t know. I know. I know. That’s what we call you. A born again
vegetarian. Yeah. Twice over
1:04:40
T: [laugh]. Yeah.
1:04:42
TR: Well if we can’t think of too much more I think we can wrap it up, but I’ve,
I’ve learned a little bit more of, of, uh. I’ve heard some of these stories over and over, and loved
hearing them again
1:04:52
T: You never heard about my folks, my grandparents being Christian Scientists
though, did you?
1:04:55
TR: No. no. I thought that was just your mother side
1:04:58
Erbana.
T: No, no. They were in the Christian Science Church. And then they met in
1:05:06
TR: That’s interesting yeah. And there were some real characters. Um, Burt
Tilstrom, um,
1:05:10
T: oh yeah
1:05:12
TR: Some significant people and my contribution was the stone wall from the
lower garden. That was my gift back to Sylvia as a remembrance type of thing so. That hopefully
will out live me. Yeah. Type of thing. I guess that’s a wrap you can
1:05:28
T: Ok.
�1:05:29
TR: All right.
1:05:29
T: Thank you
1:05:30
TR: Thank you
recording ends 1:05:34
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Summers in Saugatuck-Douglas Collection
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. Kutsche Office of Local History
Description
An account of the resource
Collection contains images and documents digitized and collected through the project "Stories of Summer," supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant. The collection aims to document the twin lakeshore communities of Saugatuck and Douglas, Michigan, as they transformed through the state's bustling tourism industry and acceptance of minorities.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1910s-2010s
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Various
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Michigan
Saugatuck (Mich.)
Douglas (Mich.)
Michigan, Lake
Allegan County (Mich.)
Beaches
Sand dunes
Outdoor recreation
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Saugatuck-Douglas History Center
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project)
Format
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image/jpeg
application/pdf
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Image
Text
Language
A language of the resource
English
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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DC-07_SD-RandolphT-20180721
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Randolph, Travis
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-07-21
Title
A name given to the resource
Travis Randolph (Audio interview and transcript), 2018
Description
An account of the resource
Travis shares memories of Saugatuck from the 1950s, '60s, and '70s.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Reyda, Ted (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Michigan
Saugatuck (Mich.)
Douglas (Mich.)
Allegan County (Mich.)
Outdoor recreation
Oral history
Audio recordings
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Documenting the Histories of Summers in Saugatuck-Douglas, Kutsche Office of Local History
Relation
A related resource
Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project)
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
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Sound
Text
Format
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audio/mp3
application/pdf
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a6cd3392530375761e2e6313ff57c8f0.pdf
ef01178102bc848063eaf25d39b24cc5
PDF Text
Text
COVID-19 Journal
Kim L. Ranger
Friday, March 6, 2020
Read this good article!
Chen, Caroline. March 5, 2020. “I Lived Through SARS and Reported on Ebola.
These Are the Questions We Should Be Asking About Coronavirus.”
ProPublica. https://www.propublica.org/article/i-lived-through-sars-andreported-on-ebola-these-are-the-questions-we-should-be-asking-aboutcoronavirus
Friday, March 13, 2020
Worst Friday the 13th ever. My working from home request was approved so I
went to the office to pack up my computer, monitor, etc. I felt weepy, sad at
leaving my suitemates. Once I got home, I set up my home office with the work
computer and moved my home laptop, monitor, etc., to the dining room. My
home laptop decided to update Firefox and now it doesn’t have my bookmarks
and asks me to login. Uninstalled it and am learning Safari. The little external
camera won’t work. My work laptop won’t let me get to anything in the library
website, as if it was all behind a firewall! After many emails, figured out that I had
to change the settings on Firefox (despite having used my work laptop at home
previously), Chrome, and Edge. I shouted and swore all afternoon.
Saturday, March 14, 2020
Romano, Andrea. Updated March 12, 2020. “Stuck at Home? These 12 Famous
Museums Offer Virtual Tours You Can Take on Your Couch (Video):
Experience the best museums from London to Seoul in the comfort of your
own home.” Travel + Leisure.
https://www.travelandleisure.com/attractions/museums-galleries/museumswith-virtual-tours
I like this idea!
Aubrey, Allison. March 14, 2020. “The New Coronavirus Can Live On Surfaces
For 2-3 Days — Here's How To Clean Them.” NPR.
https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/03/14/811609026/the-newcoronavirus-can-live-on-surfaces-for-2-3-days-heres-how-to-clean-them
So what does this mean for stuff we get from the stores? Wipe it all down when
we get home before bringing it into the house?
�Went walking in Aman Park this afternoon, enjoyed the quiet - heard a lot of birds
and listened to the creek. I feel weird wanting to stay away from everyone,
including old friends.
Sunday, March 15, 2020
Menefee,Trey. March 11, 2020. “COVID19: The Outlook from Hong Kong: This is
Bad.” The OSINT HK Brief. https://comparativist.substack.com/p/covid19the-outlook-from-hong-kong
"Most Hong Kongers acted as if the virus was already here and raging
undetected. Nearly everyone wore masks when they went outside, ... washed
their hands frequently. Without being asked or ordered to, most businesses told
workers to work remotely when that was an option. Malls, buses, trains, and
restaurants were nearly empty for two months.
With Hong Kong now ranked below 50 on the outbreak dashboards, there’s a
prevailing sense in Hong Kong that we saved ourselves. ... Every infectious
disease has nearly flat-lined too, in fact."
Monday, March 17, 2020
Kangaroo Sanctuary Alice Springs. March 16, 2020. “Even Priscilla Queen of the
Desert loves munchy grass.”
https://www.facebook.com/thekangaroosanctuary/
Share cheer and kindness!
Bellm, Cameron. March 9, 2020. “Prayer for a Pandemic.” Instagram.
https://www.instagram.com/p/B9iC8UbFGMz/
Cameron Bellm, a mother of two living in Seattle, offered this “Prayer for a
Pandemic” on Instagram.
“May we who are merely inconvenienced
Remember those whose lives are at stake.
May we who have no risk factors
Remember those most vulnerable.
May we who have the luxury of working from home
Remember those who must choose between preserving their health or
making their rent.
May we who have the flexibility to care for our children when their schools
close
Remember those who have no options.
May we who have to cancel our trips
Remember those that have no safe place to go.
May we who are losing our margin money in the tumult of the economic
market
Remember those who have no margin at all.
�May we who settle in for a quarantine at home
Remember those who have no home.
As fear grips our country,
let us choose love.
During this time when we cannot physically wrap our arms around each
other,
Let us yet find ways to be the loving embrace of God to our neighbors.
Amen.”
Friday, March 20, 2020
Pueyo, Tomas. March 19, 2020. “Coronavirus: The Hammer and the Dance:
What the Next 18 Months Can Look Like, if Leaders Buy Us Time.”
Medium. https://medium.com/@tomaspueyo/coronavirus-the-hammer-andthe-dance-be9337092b56
Good explanation.
Thursday, March 26, 2020
VanWingen, Jeffrey. March 24, 2020. “PSA Grocery Shopping Tips in COVID19.” YouTube. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjDuwc9KBps
An excellent video on handling groceries and take-out food at home! Yet it
caused me great angst.
World Economic Forum. March 20, 2020. Coronavirus: These products work best
to kill the virus. https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/03/clean-killcoronavirus-covid19-safety-health/
Another good, short article on how to clean and what with (oh, who cares about
ending sentences with prepositions!).
Saturday, March 28, 2020
We are paying our housecleaner (by check via mail) but doing the cleaning
ourselves. We really value her, and I am still paid to work at home. I am buying
gift certificates from my massage therapist instead of going there. My hair lady's
job will still be there and I'll pay/tip her extra when I resume. However, I'm not
sure what to do about the neighbor kid - I'd like him to rake but it's not "lifesustaining" and technically violates the "stay-at-home" order. Probably will just do
it myself.
I made chapati (flat bread) for the 1st time! No yeast, leavening, or eggs needed.
I didn't roll them thin enough but they were fine anyway for sandwiches. Only I
substituted 3/4 c regular white flour + 1/4 c almond flour.
�Sunday, March 29, 2020
Spent an hour and 20 minutes at Aman Park this morning; it was early and very
quiet and I only saw 2 other people. Sand Creek has flooded. A few Hepatica
were budded and ready to open! Heard my 1st Phoebe of the year, plus the
wood frogs. Also, I realized that the black squirrels in Aman are a color variant of
Fox Squirrels (same size, not smaller like Gray Squirrels). On the way home, saw
a Red-tailed Hawk soaring and 3 Sandhill Cranes in a field.
Rosel, MaryEllen Walter. March 29, 2020. #prevention. Facebook post.
https://www.facebook.com/maryellen.rosel
“Study after study demonstrates that even if there is only a little bit of connection
between groups (i.e. social dinners, playdates/playgrounds, etc.), the epidemic
trajectory isn't much different than if there was no measure in place. ...
You should perceive your entire family to function as a single individual unit; if
one person puts themselves at risk, everyone in the unit is at risk. ...
Seemingly small social chains get large and complex with alarming speed. [E.g.,]
If your son visits his girlfriend, and you later sneak over for coffee with a
neighbor, your neighbor is now connected to the infected office worker that your
son's girlfriend's mother shook hands with.”
And for this afternoon's cooking experiment, I made Pork Picadillo Lettuce
Wraps. I forgot to put the url where I found the recipe, but it contains onion,
garlic, chopped green olives, an orange bell pepper, golden raisins, substituted
pinenuts for the slivered almonds, salt, cayenne, crushed red pepper, cinnamon,
and cloves. Served it with shredded cheese and green salsa.
Wednesday, April 1, 2020
Last night's chapati had zatar, fennel seeds, and fresh chives. Yum.
Saturday, April 4, 2020
Most people at the park have no clue about 6-10 feet of physical distance, which
increased my anxiety.
Tuesday, April 7, 2020
COVID-19
Ahmad, Aisha S. 2020, March 27. “ Why You Should Ignore All That
Coronavirus-Inspired Productivity Pressure.” The Chronicle of Higher
Education. https://www.chronicle.com/article/Why-You-Should-Ignore-AllThat/248366
“Global catastrophes change the world.... the legacy of this pandemic will live
with us for years, perhaps decades to come. It will change the way we move,
build, learn, and connect. … The emotionally and spiritually sane response is
�to prepare to be forever changed.”
"Let go of all of the profoundly daft ideas you have about what you should be
doing right now. Instead, focus intensely on your physical and psychological
security."
I felt quite productive at first, but today am having trouble concentrating. So
Ahmad's thoughts are very relevant. Also, it is warm out!
Stage 2
"Now more than ever, we must abandon the performative [productivity] and
embrace the authentic. Our essential mental shifts require humility and patience.
Focus on real internal change. These human transformations will be honest, raw,
ugly, hopeful, frustrated, beautiful, and divine. And they will be slower than
keener academics are used to. Be slow. Let this distract you. Let it change
how you think and how you see the world. Because the world is our work."
Stage 3
"On the other side of this shift, your wonderful, creative, resilient brain will be
waiting for you. ... Things will start to feel more natural. The work will also make
more sense, and you will be more comfortable about changing or undoing what is
already in motion. ... Emotionally prepare for this crisis to continue for 12 to 18
months, followed by a slow recovery. If it ends sooner, be pleasantly surprised.
Right now, work toward establishing your serenity, productivity, and wellness
under sustained disaster conditions. ... On the other side of this journey of
acceptance are hope and resilience. We will know that we can do this, even if our
struggles continue for years. We will be creative and responsive, and will find
light in all the nooks and crannies. We will learn new recipes and make unusual
friends. We will have projects we cannot imagine today, and will inspire students
we have not yet met. And we will help each other."
What an amazing essay, exactly at the time I needed it.
Sunday, April 12, 2020
Stevens, Christian. April 8, 2020. “The Origins of SARS-CoV-2: Part 3. Was this
virus designed in lab? Accidentally released?”
https://leelabvirus.host/covid19/origins-part3
As my colleague bat researcher Amy Russell says, "an excellent read." Very
scientific, and I didn't feel able to concentrate fully, just read the conclusions in
bold.
�Today's cooking adventure was barbequed boneless chicken thighs. Used Bitty's
recipe for bourbon BBQ sauce and the charcoal grill. They were quite tasty,
especially so because neither of us likes dark meat!
Monday, April 13, 2020
COVID-19 2
Yesterday, we went to a park for a short walk. We walked slowly on a boardwalk
at the end of the road and saw a few birds, a bird's nest, ripples on the lake,
pussy willows, and a lone Spring Beauty blooming. As we returned to the car, I
was grateful that another walker had waited for us to leave the path before he
proceeded.
Grateful that he stayed away.
That is what has been the most difficult thing for for me about this crisis.* Being
afraid of seeing other people, of interacting with them when I can't control the
distance. Of picking up groceries or take-out food when the substitute shoppers,
cooks, and servers aren't wearing masks of any sort. Of neighbor kids running
full tilt toward me as they are pulled along by their dog. There's nowhere to go,
no escape. I have to turn my face and body away, hold my breath, keep walking
until I am compelled to breathe.
Is there anything positive that may come from what’s happening?*
Via social media, I've seen cool art and crafts that others are making. I've sent
more letters, both via snail mail (hurrah for the USPS) and email. I've made more
of an effort to cook on the weekends, trying recipes that are new to me. I've
exercised more during the week. I chat more with colleagues.
More on another day.
*Prompts from:
Jen A. Miller. "Why You Should Start a Coronavirus Diary." New York Times,
April 13, 2020. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/13/smarter-living/whyyou-should-start-a-coronavirus-diary.html
Sunday, April 19, 2020
COVID-19 3
People write that the world will be different after this, and I think education
becomes even more important - teaching people to see others' points of view,
teaching empathy, caring, and how to practice kindness. Changing the economy
from frontier or pioneer (always expanding) capitalism to something more
like democratic socialism, I hope.
�But how do we deal with fewer hugs and kisses? They have become more
important, more necessary, and deadly.
We also have to teach people to pay attention to the sky, the sunshine and
precipitation, the clouds, the plants and animals. We have to change our
mechanization to use less-destructive energy. We have to recycle, stop polluting,
and actively clean up the planet. Put resources into recycling plants and return to
creating products that last a long time. Put education resources into teaching
people to fix things - the trades are important - plumbing, mechanics, heating and
cooling. Cleaners, teachers, servers, carers (e.g., daycare and nursing home
workers, nurses, "personal care attendants") need to be paid as well as or better
than the so-called "white collar" employees and owners. Everyone needs
healthcare, education, and other human rights. The United Nations has "Peace,
dignity and equality on a healthy planet" on their homepage now. Their
sustainable development goals are what pre-school to higher education should
consider as the basic curricula.
Wednesday, April 22, 2020
COVID-19 4
One of my colleagues asked to meet online but hadn’t used google meet before
– he was pleased with it being so easy, and actually tutored me on changing my
settings even though it was his 1st time using it! He has been thinking about how
to re-open in f2f with shields between faculty and students in offices and in
public-facing offices (in my case, our service desks), using only the largest
classroom/lab spaces with fewer students.
Will the uni limit the # of students in f2f classes for the fall? It seems counterproductive to financial sense but common sense for maintaining health. If we
schedule f2f library instruction, do we ask to split the classes up into different
days or sessions if they have too many students to space appropriately? It’ll be
noisier when we ask them to collaborate while being farther apart, and we can
handle that! (As long as we’re prepared ahead of time.)
How do we do the “working with each student individually” in a lab/classroom
setting? I can only imagine it takes away from emotional safety if a student has to
share their topic loudly. We might have to do this in hallways if in a space that
allows for it and in my library, have one of the adjacent small rooms booked.
I’m not sure how to handle f2f individual consultations in my office – or if we
should only use the bookable small group rooms – but wiping them down in
between uses? And/Or do we both wear masks, no matter which space we use?
�I think we could do some great brainstorming together!
Friday, April 24, 2020
COVID-19 5
Can opportunities be found within this pandemic?
My colleagues and I have found that in creating and modifying our instructional
materials for the asynchronous environment, while practicing user-centered and
accessible design principles, is a lengthy process. It is longer and more laborintensive than creating materials meant to be used in a face-to-face context when
we have the luxury of explaining more fully as students use them. We have to
spell each step out, and ask our student employees to test the results. Then, we
find that after creating a new product we are compelled to go back to improve the
previous products.
Some librarians are good at creating short videos. I'm not, not yet. I'm better at
explaining steps in written form with graphics. When a student colleague
completed one assignment I had written, I saw gaps. Now back to modifying!
Is iterative change or continuous improvement, as in changing our instructional
materials, contradictory to transformational change? We're in the middle of a
catastrophe, and transformational change should result, as seen by publishers
opening up digital collections for no cost, education going online-only, and
libraries continuing to provide services and collections digitally. What will the
transformational change be in library instruction and our learning objects?
Saturday, April 25, 2020
Saw a flock of Yellow-rumped warblers in Aman Park this morning! Also at least
a couple of pairs of Wood Thrushes. A Pileated Woodpecker up close, on the
ground - brilliant! On the way home, saw a Great Egret.
Saturday, May 2, 2020
Last night I made green-bean-potato salad. Wash, snap, and break fresh green
beans into bite-sized pieces. Boil 5-6 minutes until al dente and run them under
cold water to stop them cooking and maintain the color. Use really small potatoes
or cut them into bite-sized pieces, and boil until tender. Mix them together with
crumbled feta cheese, onion or shallots (I used dried this time), vinegar of choice
(I like rice wine vinegar), olive oil, salt and pepper. Optional: add fresh chives, or
herbs. Thanks to a former friend for the recipe many years ago. The proportions
are all to taste or based on what is available.
�Tomfoolery. April 29, 2020. “A bed time story of how it started, and why
hindsight’s 2020.”
https://www.facebook.com/probablytomfoolery/videos/925284527912453/
Wonderful. Watched and listened all the way through.
Sunday, May 3, 2020
10 Interesting Facts. Fencing Uniform. https://www.10interestingfacts.com/wpcontent/uploads/2016/12/fencing-uniform.jpeg
When we return to work, here is the outfit I'm hoping to wear. Mask, gloves, and
stay 6 feet away or you will feel the tip of my sword! (I'll wear a regular cloth
mask with a filter.)
Tuesday, May 5, 2020
COVID-19 6
What have I been learning to do differently to support online learning?
• Did a literature search and revised library subject guides to include more
instruction and to reduce “cognitive load” with better design; modified my
guide profile to include COVID-19 special information
• Revised handouts to be more specific as online learning objects
• I have used PowerPoint for conference presentations, but thought that for
the online spring courses, I would use PowerPoint as a jumping off point to
create videos. So far, no instructional videos, but the PowerPoint
supplements the other items
• Created a 18-second Panopto video to introduce myself to students; also
learned how to incorporate a quiz into the video
• Learned how to create Blackboard Course Rooms for specified office hours
• Learned to use Zoom
• Learned to use the Lib Apps virtual chat module
• I got a sanctioned institutional account, learned to sign into Google
Hangout and to create Google Meetings, and moved items from my private
Google Drive to my new institutional account for security and privacy
• Read the article by Wagner, Travis L., and Archie Crowley. (2020). “Why
are bathrooms inclusive if the stacks exclude? Systemic exclusion of trans
and gender nonconforming persons in post-Trump academic librarianship.”
Reference Services Review (48), 159-181.
https://www.emerald.com/insight/publication/issn/0090-7324/vol/48/iss/1
Although I had already included many of the recommended practices, I
revised the Lesbian Gay Bisexual Transgender Resources guide to be
even more welcoming, as there have been more articles about LGBTQIA
people feeling especially isolated during COVID-19.
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
COVID-19 Journals
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries
Description
An account of the resource
This collection of journals and personal narratives was solicited from the GVSU community by archivists of the University Libraries during the events of the 2020 COVID-19 global pandemic. During this unprecedented crisis the university closed suddenly, following federal and state guidelines of social distancing to reduce the spread of the novel coronavirus. The university closed its campuses on March 12, 2020, and quickly moved students out of campus housing. Faculty swiftly transitioned to fully-online teaching for the remainder of the Winter 2020 semester, and all campus events, including commencement, were cancelled.
The purpose of the COVID-19 Journaling Project was to document the individual and personal experiences of GVSU’s students, staff, faculty, and the wider community during this time of international crisis. Some project participants were university student employees who were compensated for their journaling. Other participants were granted stipends or extra credit for submitting entries to the archives. Still others participated without any compensation or credit. The University Archives remains grateful to all who submitted journals, for helping us to understand the impact of this crisis on our community.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2020
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
University Archives. COVID-19 Journaling Project
Subject
The topic of the resource
Epidemics
Grand Valley State University
College students
Personal narratives
COVID-19 pandemic, 2019-2020
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Text
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
COVID-19_2020-05-08_RangerK
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Ranger, Kim L.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2020-03-06/2020-05-08
Title
A name given to the resource
COVID-19 Journal
Description
An account of the resource
Thoughts of an androgynous (non-binary) married lesbian, Quaker, liaison librarian, tenured faculty member during the COVID-19 pandemic.
Subject
The topic of the resource
COVID-19 pandemic, 2019-2020
Epidemics
Grand Valley State University
Personal narratives
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
University Archives. COVID-19 Journaling Project
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University University Libraries. Special Collections and University Archives.
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
Language
A language of the resource
eng