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                    <text>Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project
World War II
Len Motyka
(25:22)
Background Information (00:15)







Born In 1925 in Detroit, Michigan. (00:17)
Highest rank was Technician 5th Grade. (00:20)
He attended a catholic school for 8 years and then attended Cleveland High School in Detroit.
(00:50)
Len knew he would be drafted, so instead of being drafted he enlisted in 1943 in the U.S. Army.
(1:45)]
Len had some uncles who were in the army. (2:10)
He wanted to go into the Navy, but instead was placed into the Army. (2:44)

Basic Training (3:05)






He attended basic training in Texas. Here he was placed in an antitank unit. He was then made a
machine gunner and then placed into a mortar squad.
Len had 14 weeks of basic training. He was then sent to Baltimore, Maryland. (4:08)
When traveling across the Atlantic, most men, including Len, got sick. (4:27)
Len landed in Marseille, France. (4:47)
Military life was very strict but Len under stood their reasoning for it. (5:15)

Service in Europe (5:43)










He severed in the 63rd Davison in the 7th Army under General Patton [Patch]. (5:44)
Len did meet Patton at one point in his military career. (6:29)
Len and his unit traveled through the countryside taking one village and town at a time. The unit
moved until reaching Germany. (7:00)
He was asked to place the bayonet on his rifle at one point. Fortunately the German forces
retreated and he did not need to engage in hand to hand combat. (7:52)
He did not form close friendships with the men he was serving along side. (8:57)
Several times, someone would have cookies sent to them. When this happened, the men often
shared them. (9:15)
To pass free time while in the field, Len and his fellow soldiers would play card games or pick up
sports games. (10:34)
One of Len’s friends who were higher up on command stole an accordion for him to play out of
a shop in France. (11:45)
Len served for 3 years in the military (1943-1946). (12:05)

End of Service/ Life after Service (12:51)


Len found it difficult to readjust to military life. (12:45)

�




Len’s parents separated while he was in Europe. He stayed with his mother when he returned
home. She was very happy when he returned home. (13:45)
He kept in contact with his army friends when he returned home. As time passed he lost contact
with them. (14:30)
He is a member of the VFW. (15:00)
Len was awarded a quarterly guard. He was almost given a Purple Heart after an altercation in a
bunker. (15:10)

Effects of Service (16:25)





He was very nervous for some time after returning from his service. (16:30)
Len does not like to talk about his military experience because of all the killing he saw. (17:10)
When the men entered towns, he recalls given people his chocolate bars who looked like they
were starving to death. (18:25)
He believes that having his military service was a very good experience. (19:20)

�</text>
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Boring, Frank</text>
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                    <text>Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project

A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant
Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department

Esther Moul Interview
Interviewed by Alan Moul
May 26, 2016 and May 29, 2016
Transcript
AM: This is Alan Moul, I'm here with Esther Gilliland Moul, who happens to be my mother. The date is
May twenty-sixth, two thousand sixteen, which happens to be my anniversary. This oral history is being
collected as part of the Growing Community Project for Oceana County. And I'm going to have my mom
talk about her earliest memories and the first Gilliland's in Oceana County. Mom?
EM: Thank you! My plan is to tell the early and the transitional history of our Gilliland family farm, which
ended by being a centennial farm in Hart, Michigan. Since history is my hobby and because I have
inherited and gathered far more information than can be told on tape, I want everyone listening to this
to know that they can certainly find much more detail, both genealogy and history, because I am
currently writing our family history with a lot of detail. And that will be at the Chadwick-Munger House,
headquarters of the Oceana County Historical Society.
AM: Could you spell your name for us so we make sure we get it right?
EM: Esther, E-s-t-h-e-r. A lot of people leave out that “h.” May, M-a-y. Gilliland is G-i-l-l-i-l-a-n-d. And
then my married name is Moul, M-o-u-l.
AM: Okay, thank you. Alright.
AM: Okay.
EM: Harvey (H-a-r-v-e-y) Hunter (H-u-n-t-e-r) Gilliland, my great-grandfather - great-great-grandfather was the first Gilliland in Oceana County. He moved here from western Pennsylvania in 1873 with his
wife, Martha, two daughters, Clara and Elizabeth, and a son, my grandfather, Clayton, who was six years
old at that time. He also brought with him his mother, Mary. He had formerly been working on the Erie
Canal as a driver on the towpath. But the Erie Canal was going out of favor because the railroads were
coming in and I assume that that could be what prompted him to leave that occupation. I also think that
he probably had a connection to the Garwoods [?] who were already here in Oceana County, that may
be who prompted him to move here. There was a Mr. Garwood, who was a blacksmith, and the
Gillilands and the Garwoods [?] were closely related in western Pennsylvania where he came from. My
great-great-grandfather rented farm property out south of Hart, near what we call now Star Hill. And my
grandfather, Clayton, and his sister started attending the little rural Van Wickle School. They moved into
town after the kids graduated from the eighth grade. And great-great-grandpa Harvey was a
wheelwright and he also did building moving. He was also involved in community affairs. He was an avid
hunter. Everybody talked about how he had to go hunting and fishing every year. He lived on two lots in
Hart. And it is amusing to me that now I'm living in an apartment overlooking Hart Lake and he's buried
right at the top of the hill overlooking Hart Lake, overlooking his... what he called his fishing hole. And
that was at his request; he wanted to be buried over his fishing hole.
AL: Alright.
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�Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project

A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant
Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department

EM: Harvey's daughters eventually married local men, but they moved out of Michigan, but my grandpa,
Clayton, stayed and decided to be a farmer. He bought the first twenty acres of our farm in 1889 and
built a small house and then married a lovely girl, Mary Trommater, from Elbridge in 1891. Sadly, Mary
died in pregnancy. I'm sure he was grief stricken and there are several silent years that we know nothing
about. I have many of Mary’s keepsakes that were in an old trunk in our attic. But eventually he got a
new lease on life and in 1894 he married Rose Moore, a local girl who was a housekeeper for a local
businessman. And she was the daughter of John Moore, who was in the sawmill business out east of
Hart. Then in 1909, both of Clayton's parents died, and so he inherited his father's building tools, moving
tools, and for a while he would move buildings or rent out the tools. He also began to plant fruit trees on
his twenty acres. And it's interesting, instead of planting a whole orchard like we do now of one variety,
he would plant one or two trees of many varieties, trying out to see what they liked, I guess. And one of
those trees is still standing in the front yard, the old russet tree. He also planted several sweet cherry
trees and some pear trees.
EM: I was born in 1931 in a snowstorm. They tell me that the doctor had a hard time getting there; he
had to wallow through the drifts, but my dad held the lantern. They didn't have electricity and he was
quite at ease because he'd held the lantern for delivering calves in the barn many times, so it didn't
seem to faze him. Our house was a wood frame house. We call it - for places of reference - we call it the
North House, which is gone now. There was no indoor bathroom. There was a water tank upstairs. The
pump at the well outside, there was a gasoline engine that pumped and it would pump the water up to
that water tank upstairs and then it would go by gravity drainage down to the kitchen sink. So, there was
very little water pressure. I remember we had kerosene lamps and I can remember when the phone
came; we finally got our first telephone and I remember when electricity - the REA [Rural Electrification
Act] - finally came. And I was expected as a good farm girl to pick fruit in the summertime, which I did
not like. I ran barefoot through the orchards and I loved to collect rocks and play with pretty flowers and
things. I wasn't much interested in working, but if I wanted to earn a bike, I had to. I got very tan. I
enjoyed the outdoors a great deal. I loved to climb trees. My mother always had a big garden and did
lots of canning. The folks went to market in Muskegon, usually three times a week during the productive
summer months, and that was a lot of work, getting things packed up one day and then spending the
next day on the market and hoping to sell everything, so you didn't have to come home wondering what
to do with the leftovers.
AM: Did you go down and come back the same day?
EM: Oh yeah, we went early in the morning while it was still dark and usually could leave by 2:00 or 3:00
in the afternoon. We sold not only to the local people in Muskegon, but to the stores. The stores would
come and they'd look over all the farmer's wares and see which farmer they could get the best price and
the best product. And I still remember some of the names of the stores in Muskegon. Balkan's [?] was
one that regularly bought from us and we actually became good friends.
AM: Now, at this point, you had a vehicle, right? You had a car?
EM: Yes. They moved up first to a model A and then a little pickup truck.
AM: Okay.

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�Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project

A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant
Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department

EM: Yeah. Like I say, a lot more detail in what I'm actually writing that will be available for people to
read at the Historical Society because there's so much detail. When we lived in the North House, as I've
mentioned, my mother’s sister, Alice, who was a polio victim and had to walk with crutches and braces,
came to board with us part-time because she was a bookkeeper at Hawley’s Nursery just down the hill
on the corner where the...
AM: The King funeral home.
EM: ...the funeral home is now, yeah. But Hawley’s Nursery was a big nursery in the area; supplied the
farmers with most of the fruit trees and ours. And they had a daughter, Ruthie, and Ruthie and I played
together a lot.
EM: I'm thinking more about the basement of the north house, how my folks, probably great grandpa,
helped them, insulated the north end of it in the basement, and that became a storage room, it was
well-insulated, and they would store apples in there. And then that was used for a packing shed. Back
then, fruit was shipped out of the depot in Hart to heaven knows where, I don't remember. Also, it went
by boat from the early days from Pentwater and later days from Ludington, but there was a lot of
shipping of fruit for quite some time.
Another thing that I just thought about was the indoor market in Muskegon. Most of my memories are
of the outdoor market in the summertime, but there was a winter indoor market. So, I think we
probably took some of our apples there in the winter and that was not at the same location, and I just
can't remember where it was. But I know there was an indoor market and I remember vividly that I
didn't like to go because we had to get up early in the morning and stay most of the day to sell the fruit.
And so, my mother taught me all kinds of little games and poems and read books to me and anything
she could do to entertain me. So, some of those things I used on my grandkids and later life because my
mother taught me so many of those little things that stayed with me.
AM: So, you would sit there with your produce and sell it and then pack up what was left and come back
home?
EM: Yep.
AM: Okay.
EM: I'm guessing that on the way back we probably stopped at my dad's sister's places; they lived in
Whitehall and Rothbury and probably gave some leftover fruit. That would be like my parents and my
grandpa to want to do that, and I know that periodically we did give them fruit. So, I would guess that
the leftovers probably went in that direction.
AM: I remember Grandpa, I always couldn't figure out why Grandpa had the worst stuff in the house to
eat. And I would ask him, “Grandpa, why do we have all these bruised and wormholes [apples]? And he
said, “Well, the good stuff, I sell at market.” So, we ate the bad stuff.
EM: That's right. Okay, my grandma, Rose Gilliland, died in nineteen thirty-nine. So, I'd like to say some
of my memories about her because sometimes when my folks went to market, they'd let me go and stay
with grandma. And grandma had a Victrola and that was a real new thing. There were no record players
back then; it was a Victrola where you had to wind it up and play these old records. And so, she would
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�Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project

A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant
Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department

play her records for me and they were mostly really just records. Her favorite one? I'll think of it in a
minute.
She also... I have vivid memories of her sitting on the basement steps, washing and polishing eggs and
putting them in the carton to sell. And like I said, she didn't go to sell her eggs. She went to trade and
she'd come home with something in exchange for the eggs.
“I Need Thee Every Hour” - that was Grandma's favorite Victrola song. She played that over and over
again for me.
AM: I've got a question: being that they bartered, was there ever any... do you ever remember any
discussion or disagreement over what they were going to barter and bring home? Or did Grandpa
always have the final say?
EM: I don't remember anything like that. The one vivid memory I do have is of Grandpa starting out of
the yard with a model egg to go to town and grandma discovering that he'd forgotten something. And
she screamed and screeched and tried to get him to stop and she could not make him hear her. She did
not have a delicate voice. [Laughter]
I loved my grandma very much, but it was hard for me to see her suffer with cancer. And oftentimes,
then at that time, they would send me over to the other grandma's house in Mears - Grandma Auger’s
house in Mears - to stay because it would be too hard for me to watch my grandma in bed going
downhill until she died. On the day she died, I got sent across the road to the Walkers, our neighbors,
the Walkers, to have supper with them and they were good friends. They had five kids and they were my
playmates. And Ethel Walker had made scalloped potatoes and I loved scallop potatoes, but I got one
bite in my mouth and she had used pepper and my mother never used black pepper. And I choked and
coughed and I remember how I wondered what in the world was wrong with those potatoes. But those
are my memories of my Grandma Gilliland for her short life.
AM: And what was her first name again?
EM: Rose.
AM: Rose, okay.
EM: Rose, yeah.
AM: One more thing about the Garver School. For a more comprehensive story of the school, I've
written a little booklet, “Once Upon a School.” So, it’s at the Munger House headquarters; it can be read
there.
Now about our neighbors across the road, the Walkers across the road from my grandparents. Mrs.
Walker was a Hasty and Sherman Hasty was her father. And he's the one that built our fruit picking
ladders. We want to be sure and mention his name here. He was well-known. He moved into town in
later life. But I wouldn't be surprised that he had something to do with the building of my grandfather's
house because he was a builder.
Also, Vern Walker, who lived in the house next[door] with his wife, Ethel Hasty Walker; Vern Walker was
a farmer, too, there at the place. And he and my dad, one year at least, rented a good-sized truck and
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�Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project

A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant
Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department

packed up fruit and went to the Benton Harbor market. Benton Harbor was a big fruit market, and
together they went to the Benton Harbor market. I don't remember that they did it more than one year,
but they might have. But the Walkers were our good friends.
I do remember an incident while we were still living over at the north house when we had a terrific
thunderstorm. And my parents were very worried and we had big beech trees in the front yard. And I
remember lightning struck a beech tree that night and you could smell - I called it sulfur - I don't know
what it was, but I remember the awful smell and how worried that my parents were. Well, when
children know that their parents are worried, they are doubly worried. And I remember I was afraid of
lightning for years and years afterwards. And I think I was married before I finally could enjoy a good
thunderstorm.
EM: I may have already said, I don't know, in nineteen thirty-nine, my grandma died and it was a logical
thing for us to move around the corner to live with Grandpa, to take care of the farm with him. My dad
had already been spending all his days over there anyway working and so it was just logical. So, funny
thing is I have no memory of us packing up and moving because I had been spending so much time there
with my mother who was taking care of Grandma, that it just seemed logical for us to just be moving
right on in.
I remember the time of her funeral, how we went down the hill on 72nd Avenue to the cemetery, and
how there was an odor of chicken feathers - burnt chicken feathers - in the air because there was
Archer's Hatchery on that road and it had burned and oh, what a horrible smell - burnt chicken feathers.
And I identify that time of her funeral with that fire.
I said we moved around the corner to the house; I need to say that the house was double in size from
when Grandpa had first built it because about nineteen twelve or so, as the kids were leaving home, as
is often the case, he added onto the house and made it what it is still standing today. A much larger
house. In nineteen eleven, the barn was built and my mother, who was living in the neighborhood just at
that year, said she remembered coming over to play with Dorothy Gilliland and there was a pile of
lumber waiting for the barn to be built. And here again, I never thought to ask who built that barn? I
have no idea. It could have been a barn raising. I just don't know. Be sure to ask the questions that you
can get answers to while your family is still living because you’ll have many regrets about the things that
you don't know and wish you'd asked!
AM: Now, did you mention anything about the kids were all leaving after getting out of school and now
you had no one to pick the small fruits that they were growing?
EM: Right, up until that time they had picked their own fruit, done their own harvesting along with
relatives, the girls, my grandpa Clayton's sisters, Dorothy and LaVange [?] and Phyllis would come maybe
for a day and pick. And maybe they had friends that would want to pick and so you could get local help.
But as they increased the size of the farm and by the time my dad and mother and I moved around the
corner to live with grandpa, they were starting to look at more acreage and eventually did add quite a
bit to the farm. And so, labor became an interesting problem.
AM: Now, we looked at the farm drawings and saw that they had strawberries, raspberries...currants...

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�Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project

A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant
Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department

EM: You can bet those came out when the kids left home. [Laughter] They didn't have their help
anymore, so nobody wanted to do that kind of labor. And so, then he started planning fruit trees in
earnest.
There's a story I think my grandpa told me himself that Dr. Munger, who is known in Hart, used to be
known as the Cherry King. He had more acreage than anybody at one time of tart cherries. That he and
my grandpa, who were friends and I imagine my grandpa went to him for doctoring, as they would call
it. He said, “how are your cherries doing, Clayton?” And my grandpa said, “doing pretty well, doing
alright.”
And Dr. Munger says, “I think I'll plant some cherries.” [Laughter] Makes a good story. Well anyway, he
ended up being the primary cherry grower in Oceana County at one time.
EM: I'm coming up to when I was about nine years old, and so these memories are going to be from that
vantage point, nine, ten, eleven years old. So, I remember how, of course, as we…
AM: ...it would’ve been around 1940.
Yeah, as we got more acreage, more fruit coming into bearing, we had to have more labor. And so, like I
said, we took cousins, neighbors and anybody that wanted to help. And one cousin, Doris in particular,
loved to pick fruit. She was tall and I can still see her standing on top of a nine-foot ladder with only the
tree branches for support, picking away, singing away. She loved it and she boarded with us in the
summer to do that. And she was quite artistic and she loved to draw pictures of what she was doing. She
came several years, as I remember, earned her school money that way, clothing and books and so forth.
So right about that time, we were getting rid of our horses and cows. We had one team left, Dick and
Nell, and out of deference to Grandpa Clayton, they still kept them and he'd do a little bit of cultivating
with the two horses. And when it came haying time, because we still had several cows, and the horses
needed hay. And when it came haying time, we had rented pastureland down the hill. That would be
where my son Cal lives now in that field to the south.
We would go in and get that hay, cut that hay, and I can remember the horses bringing in the hay up the
hill. One of my favorite pictures of myself is standing on top of that load of hay. I used to love to just sit
and watch the process of unloading the hay, how the horses would pull the ropes to raise the hay fork
full of hay and swing it over into the hay mound and let it drop. And it took quite a while to unload the
load of hay and then go back and get another load.
AM: How they could back that wagon up, the horses would back it up.
EM: Yeah, I loved to watch my grandpa hitch up the horses, too. I'm so glad that I have those memories
because they're gone now. Kids don't see those kinds of things on farms unless they go to a museum
farm. So, I'm glad I have those memories of haying time on the farm.
I had older cousins who would come and stay summers with my parents, but they were soon drafted
into the army. So there went some of our good help. There were local people, as I’ve mentioned, that
would come and work. Teachers often liked to work on the farm in the summer because it gave them
summer employment. Ivan Robinson was our old standby. He painted our house one summer and did
other odd jobs around the farm.
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�Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project

A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant
Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department

AM: Didn't he end up being the principal of a school or something?
EM: I think he might have; he was a teacher, yep. There were people we called drifters and I suppose
maybe they were alcoholics. They just had that kind of temperament where they were just passing
through and just wanted to earn a little bit of money and they would work and we hired some of them.
We didn't have to house them at all. And by the way, back then there were no housing laws, no
restrictions. If somebody wanted to come and pitch a tent in your yard and pick fruit, that was all right.
We had young girls just with new driver's licenses that drove across the state to camp under our walnut
trees in tents, and they became lifetime friends. They’d have parties in the barn at night and we just
became really good friends.
One man in particular, I think he just stopped in to see if we needed help and he became a family friend
for many years. His name was Harlan, H-a-r-l-a-n, Parrish. He and his wife Mae came and we called him
“Shorty.” He was a short man and he was the best hired man my dad ever had. He would do anything.
He dragged the tractor. Oh, yes, we'll have to talk about the new tractor. He would, you know, whatever
the day called for, he was up for it. And we housed “Shorty” in the barn and they didn't mind. They
curtained off an area and we had an old bed with a mattress and a place to wash up. And of course, all
the accommodations, bathroom accommodations were just outdoor privies at that point. And so
nobody minded. It wasn't until the government agencies got involved and put restrictions on the
farmers that things had to change.
But people would start to come up from the south and people would come from Oklahoma and
Arkansas. And you never knew where your help was going to come from. That was risky business to
hope that there would be enough help to get your crop off. But it always worked out and there were
good years and bad years. Some years there would be a heavy frost and you'd say, well, maybe next
year will be a good year. So, talk about being in the gambling business. It sure felt like it, but things
seemed to always work out.
EM: I don't remember the year - but it's written down, so you can find it if you want to know - that we
got our first tractor. It was a Caywood and that's an unfamiliar name now, but we were so proud of that
tractor. And I remember how my dad practiced with that tractor and how he had to use it to pull a
loaded truck up the hill and he was so proud that he was able to do that.
Also, the name Eva Doedy [?] comes to mind, Eva Doedy [?] was a nurse at the Hart hospital and she was
a corker, she loved to work and she loved the outdoors and she took her vacation and came and picked
cherries every year. She’d take a bucket of water and put it at the bottom of her cherry tree and she'd
wash her hands after she got through with every tree and she just treated it like a true vacation. And
then I was reminded that in later years, she came back and helped my mother and me can cherries in
the summertime. She truly loved farm life, and she was willing to spend her vacation time outdoors.
AM: It sounds like in those years there was a lot more community involvement in the farms that just
kind of was natural, which we are losing now, that doesn’t happen.
EM: There was a saying by the businessmen in town, “if the farmer has a bad year, so do we.” The
farmer couldn't buy the new couch or his wife couldn't get her new coat or whatever. Or the farmer
couldn't buy a new truck or whatever. The economy was… everyone affected… everyone's success
affected somebody in the community.
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�Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project

A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant
Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department

AM: What are your memories of tourism, as far as it related to the farming community in the [nineteen]
forties?
EM: People came through to the sand dunes, I remember the sand dunes, that was a big drawing card.
People came just to see them and to climb on them. And there were little cabins. And now that people
all had cars and were traveling, resorting was a big thing. I think that's some of what got my Grandpa
and Grandma Auger to start their canning business, was for the resorters that came and just, oh, they
just “oohed and aahed” for all the fruit over here and wanted to take some back with them.
I'm moving into my teenage years now, and I'm remembering that the government was making jeeps,
used army jeeps available to farmers to use in place of tractors if they needed a good utility vehicle, they
could do some light farming with Jeeps.
AM: This was before World War Two? Must have been World War One surplus?
EM: No, this was World War Two… in the middle of the... or at the end of the war, I’m not sure. But I
remember writing to school with the Walker kids across the road because they had bought one of the
Army surplus jeeps and we could go through the snow in the wintertime when other kids couldn't get
there.
I remember the Normandy invasion talking about World War Two now, we were very deeply involved in
listening to the radio, which we had a radio now and that was a big deal because we had cousins Harold
and Norman Hoxton in the war and we kept track of the movement of the troops. And I remember
sitting on my dad's lap with the map out in front of us watching,
listening to the H.V. Kaltenborn [?] and other announcers talking about the Normandy invasion and
were just really caught up in what was going on. At the school, the men were, of course, all going into
the service and our high school principal was a woman that was quite new. Mrs. Frost was our high
school principal, and one day she got up to the study hall and announced that we would all be collecting
milkweed pods for the Kapok preservers for the army. And she brought the house down when she said,
“the bags are in the office.” Well, back in those days us kids would call anybody in authority that we
didn't care too much for an “old bag.” You know, so she said, “the bags are in the office,” but we yeah,
we went out and harvested milkweed pods. We also went out… they would let school out for kids to go
out and help with emergency crop harvest.
I remember how I got my Social Security number and my dad and mother got theirs at the same time.
The cherry harvest was on and the canning factories were getting plugged up with product and they
couldn't handle it fast enough. So, they would tell the farmers, “don't bring us anymore for a while,
come in and help us.” So, the farmers and their families would have to go in and help. But I remember I
was on the sorting belt. My dad was emptying lugs into the water and I don't remember what my
mother was doing, probably sorting. And that's how we all at the same time, my mother and dad and I
got our Social Security numbers to help out.
But the biggest excitement at that time, nineteen forty-four and five, were the German prisoners of war
that were made available. They had captured them and brought them over here. And rather than just
warehousing them, they put them to work. And according to the Geneva Convention, they were to be
treated humanely. And we wanted to show that in America, we treat our war prisoners humanely. And
so, we gave them work to do and whereas our troops were not always being treated humanely. Anyway,
8

�Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project

A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant
Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department

we could sign up, a farmer could sign up for needing so many prisoners and my dad would take the
pickup truck and go to the fairgrounds where they were housed in tents and pick up his quota for the
day and a guard with a gun would come along and he was supposed to stand watching the prisoners at
all times, but he would get very bored. And so, he would put his… lean his gun up against the tree and
go to work, too. But it was interesting, as a teenager looking out at those men, I didn't feel like they
were the enemy. They were there to help us. They were friendly, it was just different. They would kind
of wave at me and smile. But we weren't supposed to communicate back and forth. And I couldn't talk
German anyway.
AM: Now, were there any Japanese prisoner of wars or do they stay on the West Coast?
EM: No.
AM: I'm not aware whether they helped or not. I think they were pretty much warehoused, it was a
different situation.
EM: No, I think so. They were in the internment camps. Yeah, no these were just... now there were at
the same time some Jamaicans and some other people who came through that we'd never had before.
It was kind of a trial period, they just took anybody they could get because the good men were gone.
AM: And did they ever do any scrap metal drives just to scrap metal, scrap rubber, scrap paper.
Everything went to the war effort. Even now, when I go down the expressway and I see where
somebody's tire has blown apart and lying alongside the road, I have this urge to get out and pick it up
because that's what we did. You just saved everything. Everything was rationed: sugar was rationed,
tires were rationed, gasoline was rationed. But the farmer didn't have it so bad because the whole
world, the soldiers, the troops depended on what the farmer could raise. And so, the farmer had to have
what he needed to produce. So, we had what we needed.

Interview Day Two – May Twenty-Ninth
AM: This is Alan Moul, and I'm here with Esther Gilliland Moul. And this is a continuation of our tape
from May twenty-sixth and today's May twenty-ninth. So, we're going to continue where we left off.
EM: Well, I think we left off about when I was graduating from high school in nineteen forty-eight, I was
a country girl headed for the big city. I wanted to be a nurse and my dad had said, “well, why don't you
just go down to Muskegon, to Hackley Hospital?” And my mother wisely said, “she needs to get away.”
And I've always been grateful that she had the foresight to send me to the big city. I left with several
local girls for Oak Park, Illinois, West Suburban Hospital School of Nursing affiliated with Wheaton
College, and was there for the next three and a half years.
EM: I really, really loved Chicago. I loved to get on the elevator and go down and explore. Looking
around the architecture, the buildings, the opportunities, things I'd never seen before. I really enjoyed it
and I enjoyed the nursing experience, too. My boyfriend back home, Leonard Moul, M-o-u-l, had
another year of high school to finish. And we kept in touch some, but gradually through the years when I
was there, we kind of lost touch until the end of my training.
9

�Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project

A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant
Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department

My parents were doing quite well on the farm and they started going to Florida in the winters and taking
my grandparents, my grandpa Gilliland and my mother's parents with them. And that was nice, they had
some freedom to travel.
And with the new gales [?] in Hart, they took some pretty extensive trips to California and Texas and
quite a bit in the southwest. And in nineteen forty-nine, I came home on vacation and found that my
father had bought his first new car, brand new car, a forty-nine Kaiser. He was so proud of that - it was
the first totally new car he'd ever had. So, I guess they were doing quite well with their farming, over the
years they were gradually adding more acreage.
Leonard would come up from Comstock Park and visit his sister in Shelby, Dr. Hasty's wife Beverly, and
do yard work for her, and then he also did some carpentry work. That's where he learned to do
carpentry work, was with Burmeister Builders out of Shelby. He graduated in nineteen forty-nine. In
nineteen fifty-one, I graduated from nurses training and my folks gave me a bus trip to Florida and then I
rode home with them. I went back to Oak Park and worked for a few months just to say that I had
worked as a graduate nurse in my home hospital for a little while.
But by then I was engaged to Leonard and we were beginning to plan a wedding. We were married in
September nineteen fifty-two. Started out with a little house trailer in the driveway of my new sister and
brother in law, Mark and June Dorn. Leonard was working at Sackner Products in Grand Rapids and I
started working at Butterworth Hospital. Times were good.
AM: Now, he was a machinist, is that correct?
EM: He became a machinist. When he first started there, he drove a Hi-Lo and loaded trucks and they
loved him because they said he could load a truck semi faster and better than anybody. But then he
gradually moved up and became a machinist. He's also in the Michigan National Guard's.
Deer hunting was big, big… hunting of all kinds was big with him. And he and his brother in laws had
tented in the Upper Peninsula, and were making plans to buy some property up there and build a cabin.
So, one of the first things I got to do was camp out and go deer hunting. I did it to please him, not
because I had any desire to kill any animals. I took my gun with me. I learned how to shoot it, but I never
killed a deer. But it was a nice vacation experience. This was before the Mackinac Bridge was built. So,
we sat in long, long lines and my sister in laws would pack wonderful sandwiches and pies and things.
And so, we ate while we sat and waited to go across the bridge.
As I said, we were living in a little house trailer, but we wanted to get some land and Len, with his
carpenter skills, wanted to build a house. And his boss at Sackner Products very conveniently gave him
his house plans and so we used his house plans to build our first house. We bought two acres on Division
Avenue just about a couple of miles from Walton and Donna Moul’s place; they lived on Six Mile Road
on Division Avenue. Leonard started right away; as soon as we bought the property, we moved the
trailer up there and started right in with the plans to build our house. And I was still working, so we were
doing alright. I think we were each making about four thousand something a year.
We still took our vacations to deer hunt. Grandpa and Grandma Moul were still living. They came over
and watched the progress of the house. And I have a picture of Grandpa Moul driving a nail in the siding
on the house. And he was so proud to be able to do some little thing that showed he was interested. But

10

�Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project

A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant
Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department

sadly, he died in nineteen fifty-five and Leonard had to teach Grandma Moul how to drive. She had
never driven a car, so he did - he taught her how to drive.

EM: Back in Hart on the farm, my dad and mother seemed to be doing well, enjoying their winters and
traveling and we were so involved in building our house, we weren't paying much attention to what was
going on, on the farm back in Hart. So, we weren't thinking about their future very much. But, they
certainly every year were getting one year older and wondering who is going to take over. I think my dad
had always wished for a son, but that never happened.
So, I remember at one time he mentioned that the house and farm across the road was for sale. Well,
we sure weren't interested because we didn't want to live that close proximity to my parents. Didn't
think that would be a good idea and we weren’t thinking about moving anyway. But we got our house
built on Division Avenue and discovered in the process, we had to put down a very, very deep well. And
we didn't like the water at all because we had... it was so hard that we had to buy a commercial water
softener and that water tasted terrible coming out of that commercial water. We just didn't like it at all.
Then some other houses started going up around us and that troubled us a little bit because we had
envisioned living out in the country without too many neighbors. And so, we started looking around a
little bit.
And I'm getting ahead of myself because in nineteen fifty-six, I discovered I was pregnant, and so I
thought, well, I should be getting more domesticated and I needed to make some curtains for the baby's
bedroom. And so, we were looking at a sewing machine in Grand Rapids and when we got home, the sky
began to get really dark and strange and I had never seen that kind of weather. And the upshot was we
saw our first tornado and Leonard had to go out with the National Guards and help with that. My
neighbor down the hill and I got to stand in our living room window and watch the tornado go through,
and that was pretty exciting.
AM: When would that have been, like, May of nineteen fifty-six?
EM: Yeah, yeah.
AM: Around Easter you said, wasn't it?
EM: I think so.
AM: So earlier.
EM: Yeah, the sky turned all yellow, just like a dandelion, it was just yellow. You never saw anything like
it. Our friends, Ruth and Ron Bullis [?] lost their trailer in the storm and ended up building a house,
becoming our neighbors. Anyway, in October, Alan Lee was born and I stopped working at the hospital.
Soon after, I found out I was pregnant again and Bradley Ray joined our crowd.
By then, we were really disenchanted with where we were living and started looking around a little bit
at property. And we still took our vacations up north, went fishing up... by then, the guys had built a
cabin on some property in the Upper Peninsula outside of Munising and we took vacations up there.
And Leonard still went deer hunting, and I did too, because Grandpa and Grandma Gilliland were only
too happy to have a couple of boys come and stay with them. And that was nice that they were
accommodating.
11

�Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project

A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant
Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department

Then in nineteen sixty-one, February, Calvin John was born and, in the meantime, Leonard was helping
Marv [?] down the road build a house, so he was getting plenty of carpenter experience. We did some
looking around and found some property on Rogue River and bought a couple acres there and decided
that we would move. But we had to sell our house and we didn't have too much trouble. Some people in
Grand Rapids wanted our house and we just traded houses. They bought our house, so we bought
theirs, and ours was much more expensive than theirs, so we did alright. Moved into Grand Rapids just
in time for Al to start kindergarten. Do you remember that?
AM: Not really.
EM: No, you don’t remember Riverside Elementary School?
AM: I remember James Street...
EM: Yeah, that's where we lived on James.
AM: ...walking home.
EM: Past a dog, remember you had to walk past that scary dog?
AM: An old dog in the yard.
EM: Then, to complicate things, my dad called again and said, there's another farm for sale down the hill
and a nice big house and property, fruit trees and you've got some boys coming along. You might be
interested now. And we decided maybe we were, if we're going to have boys to raise. Why not on the
farm? So, we had already committed to building a house on the river, which we did. We lived in Grand
Rapids in town for a year and then moved out to our house on the river and lived there just a short time.
Joel came along in the fall of... no, he was born in June.
AM: June, [nineteen] sixty-three,
EM: Sixty-three and then the fall of [nineteen] sixty-three, I got a phone call from my mother-in-law that
President Kennedy had been shot. And Al remembers that quite well because he was in school.
AM: Yep, one of the few things I remember about down there.
EM: It was pretty traumatic. Brad started kindergarten there and Al was in first grade. Dr. Hasty and his
wife, Beverly, in Shelby bought our James Street house when we needed to sell it and rented it and that
helped us out considerably. So that got us out of downtown and out on the river. The kids did enjoy
living on the river. We could swim in the river and Leonard could play baseball in Rockford and that was
fun. It was between Rockford and Sparta; the kids were in the Sparta school system.
So, in June, nineteen sixty-three, Leonard started coming up to the farm and working on weekends with
my dad to see what there was that he needed to learn and help him out. In Easter time of nineteen
sixty-four, we made another move up to the farm and thankfully another person came along that
wanted to buy our house on the river. Leonard's boss bought our house down there. So, we... except for
I guess we kept one acre which we later sold to him, and the boys started at Garver School here in Hart.
AM: It must have been kind of a big switch because I know the house on the river was a lot nicer and
brand new compared to the house you moved in on the farm. It was an old farmhouse with plaster
falling off.
12

�Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project

A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant
Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department

EM: It was very old, very old. But we had no qualms about it because by then we understood what a
builder Leonard was and so we had plans right away. We drew our own plans to build a house and live in
the old house and build a house in front of it and move the old house out to use for farm labor.
AM: You actually built your house behind the one that was there.
EM: I said in front, didn’t I?
AM: Yeah, behind.
EM: We built it behind.
AM: And when you built it, you could walk from one to the other with a plank...
EM: Out the back door of the old house and the front of the new house. And Uncle Norman Johansen,
my uncle, came to visit one time, looked out our picture window and the old house hadn’t been moved
yet. He was a dry comedian. He looked out and he said, “it ain’t got much of a view.” We always had a
laugh about that.
Now we need to talk about farm labor. My dad had been buying small pieces of property and so there
were up to over one hundred acres, I'm sure, by then. And so, he needed more help and he would pick
up local help, but that wasn't going to be good enough. And people were coming from the South, but
that wasn't enough. And there was a new system of help called the “crew leader system,” where a
leader would gather a group of people from Texas or wherever they came from, and he would be
responsible to oversee them, and they were usually young single men. And so, we got started… my dad
got started using that system of labor for the harvest time.
AM: There weren't many rules back then as to what he could or couldn't do, so there was a lot of...
EM: No, there weren’t housing restrictions. People could sleep in the barn, which they did in chicken
coops, in…
AM: Tents.
EM: ...tents, old houses. Yeah, there were virtually no rules.
AM: And the crew leader, some of them anyway, charged their workers for taking them to town, for
buying food, things of that nature. So, it was pretty loose.
EM: When we remember one name in particular, Eliseo Salazar. Good man, I think he treated his people
fairly. I don't know if it was the same ones that came back year after year or not, but he was a very nice
man.
AM: Now, he was from the valley, right? In Texas?
EM: I don't remember
AM: Alice, I believe they were from Alice, Texas. And then Donna and Far and those were some of the
names that people were coming from down there.
EM: Leonard right away got connected with the Michigan State Extension office in Hart and started
taking classes, short course classes in agriculture because a lot of things he needed to learn. He could
13

�Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project

A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant
Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department

learn from my dad first hand, but this brought him up to speed on the latest farming practices and put
him in touch with the county agricultural agents that could help him decide what to plant and…
AM: Spray.
EM: And spray and things. It was really good for him. And he in school, he never had been a good
student and didn't particularly care about learning. And so, this was something new for him. And he
applied himself very well and did real well.

EM: So, I guess in summary, I'll just say that it looked like we were here to stay and the boys were
acclimating into school and farm and we were even looking at more property and life was looking pretty
good. And I think, Al and Brad, our memories intersect here, and I think they can take it on from their
vantage point of what it was like for them as they were young growing up on the farm.

14

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Throughout his photography career, he pursued both freelance commercial work as well as artistic work. His art photography is characterized by its classic black-and-white format, and features people, places and objects shot great attention and sensitivity. Gilbert's works are held in the permanent collections of the Art Institute of Chicago, the High Museum of Art in Atlanta, The Norton Simon Museum in Pasadena, and the Grand Valley State University Art Galleries, as well as in numerous private and institutional collections.&#13;
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                    <text>Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Jerry Moyer
Interviewed by James Smither
Transcribed by Christopher Kroupa

Interviewer: We are at the 2016 Ripcord Association Reunion in Springfield, Missouri. We’re
talking now with Jerry Moyer of Bella Vista Arkansas and the interviewer is James Smither of
the Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project. Okay Jerry, start us off with some
background on yourself, and to begin with where and when were you born?

Veteran: I was born right here in Springfield Missouri in 1948, October 13,

Interviewer: Okay, did your family live in Springfield or in the area somewhere? Or…

Veteran: Yes, lived over on the north side of town,

Interviewer: Okay and did you grow up here?

Veteran: I, I grew up till, I was here till I, let me think, about 1958,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: My dad died, and my mom remarried shortly after that and we moved to Omaha
Nebraska, and that’s where I went to high school and that’s where I entered the service is up in
Omaha,

�Interviewer: Okay and did you graduate from high school?

Veteran: Yes,

Interviewer: Okay, when did you graduate?

Veteran: 1966 was my year,

Interviewer: Okay and what did you do after you got out, out of school?

Veteran: I spent about a year working at a grocery store up there and, worked full-time, and
didn’t have any rent or anything like that so I thought, I thought I was making good money, but I
had a motorcycle and a GTO and I kept getting little tickets and I had four tickets in one month
and the judge told me, I see you one more time I will do everything in my power to get your
license, and this buddy I used to run with up there, we decided, you know we’ve been talking
about going in the service lets go, go do it cause we don’t have a future here no more, it, it’s
gonna happen, get another ticket and we went down to the recruiter, signed up and it was my
buddies idea he said,

(2:00)

�Veteran: We wanna go Airborne Ranger, and yeah what the heck, go, go in on the buddy system
and we did our physical and came back like three days later and he told me he said, I got good,
called me in first, no called my buddy in first, and he, when he left he went out the door didn’t
even come back to see me, but when I went in there the guy said, I got good news and bad news,
bad news is we’re not gonna take your buddy he’s got a health issue, and the good news is we’re
gonna take you and then he says, now do you still wanna go Airborne Ranger, and I said no I
don’t think so and told him I had an uncle who worked for the phone company and have you got
anything along them, and he said we got a wonderful pro-, we can get you climbing telephone
poles stringing wire and I says that’s, that’s what I wanna do, I'm gonna go on, I'm gonna go
ahead and go in and they kept their word on it I went to basic training at Fort Campbell
Kentucky, the irony of that, that’s the home of the 101st,

Interviewer: Alright now, before we get into that, to back up a little bit, so the physical that you
took was actually a serious physical then?

Veteran: Yes,

Interviewer: Okay, cause some people suggest that what they got was, you know can you walk
and breathe kind of thing,

Veteran: Oh no no, they

Interviewer: Not the one you did?

�Veteran: They had doctors poking and prodding on us,

Interviewer: Okay, alright and then, how much did you know about Vietnam at the point when
you signed up?

Veteran: Not a clue, not a clue, and matter of fact I didn’t even, you know I didn’t think there
was any chance I’d be going off to some war somewhere,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: That, that, that’s how young and dumb I was, I didn’t realize that’s what the Army’s in
the business for, but

Interviewer: Alright, so you were just going as a thing to do and,

Veteran: Get it out of the way, the draft was going on then, I said you got to do this anyway,

Interviewer: Right, okay, so now when did you show up at Fort Campbell for basic training?

(4:00)

�Veteran: That would have been the early September and like I said we’d be out there, we thought
they were trying to kill us but we would see these Airborne guys, well I mean we might march to
the rifle range, these guys ran to the rifle range and might even do a circle around us, and I
thought oh this is unreal what them guys, well they, I didn’t think that we had it so bad, but did
our eight weeks of basic and,

Interviewer: Okay, now before we move on from basic, just cover a little more for people who
don’t know, what do you actually do in basic training?

Veteran: You get a series of shots, just, it’s something they do and evacuation type things, and
you learn how to march its simple as that sound, you gotta learn how to do it and you gotta learn
who to salute and who not to salute and after about two or three weeks they let you handle a rifle,
and you get to play with it for about a week and then they finally take you to a rifle range and
you get to fire that weapon, and you know, things are going better then, when, it’s an eight week
course and when you're in the fourth or fifth week they, they start to treat you a little nicer and
they still call you trainee and they ain’t got a name for you,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: And, but they do, they do start to treat you a little, and you learn the discipline,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

�Veteran: There a chain of command and you better respect it, and you learn how to clean that
barracks and you can never clean it good enough for em, you, you’ll clean it twice and then they
might let you off then,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm, now how easy or hard was it for you to adjust to all of that?

Veteran: I, me personally I didn’t have any trouble at all, I mean, I, I wasn’t one of the fastest
runners, but I wasn’t definitely wasn’t the slowest and my locker, footlocker and bunk might not
have been the best, but it wasn’t the worst,

(6:03)

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: I was, I was just kind of a middle-of-the-road person and it kept me out of trouble I
mean, you know I learned real quick you don’t talk in the chow line in matter of fact we weren’t
even allowed to talk when we were eating back then, but I adjusted pretty well, it didn’t bother
me too much, I mean I can do the physical stuff,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm, and as far as you , were the other guys you were training with other
enlistees or were there draftees mixed in?

Veteran: We had some of both,

�Interviewer: Okay, alright so you kind of progressed through the training, you get into some
weapons training, things like that and gradually and stuff kind of comes together, the drill
instructors behave a little bit better,

Veteran: Yup

Interviewer: And then that’s an eight-week course?

Veteran: Eight-week course, yeah

Interviewer: Okay

Veteran: And then there’s classroom activity all throughout all this stuff, and jus various military
things that you need to know,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: You know booby traps, and you do a little, you get a little bit of schooling on
everything, and its, again its associated with war,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm, alright and what do you do then after basic?

�Veteran: When you graduate from basic, they have a little ceremony a big parade field and now
you're not a trainee no more, you're a real soldier, if you can pass basically,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: You're a solider, but they, they assign you where you're next duty station is and you get
and MOS, an MOS is just, that’s your new job,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: Your new title and if you go to that advanced, advanced infantry training school and
pass you actually get that MOS,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: And mine was 36 Charlie, that’s a signal,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: MOS, and my, my next duty station was Fort Gordon Georgia, and that’s, that’s the,
they got WIC down there and they got the school for MPs,

(8:00)

�Veteran: But that’s where I learned to climb telephone poles and string wire and ride a little
cable car, they had about eight poles set in a role that weren’t twenty feet apart, but you had to
climb up that, set the little cable car on there and then you had to, from your gaffs, you had to get
in that thing and not you know break your neck, and it wasn’t up that high probably I don’t think
it was quite twenty feet but it’s at least fifteen feet, I mean it’d hurt you if you fell, but you go
over to the next pole and you get out and get on the pole, grab your cable car and set it on the
next, and when you go through the, that was, that’s how you pass that little course,

Interviewer: Okay, and so you got through that alright?

Veteran: Yeah, oh yeah

Interviewer: Okay

Veteran: Climbing didn’t bother me a bit, I, and I've never climbed,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: It, it, yeah

�Interviewer: Just came naturally. All right, now eventually you wind up in Vietnam in an
infantry unit, now you, but you, but did you finish that training course and then with that
designation so were you, signals guy or?

Veteran: Well I've got a signal MOS but then they sent me to Fort Leonard Wood for an
advanced signal course,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: And then, I think that only lasted about six weeks, but we went there and did that one
and then we got our next orders to our duty station and mine was Germany,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: And I spent a year and a half in Germany,

Interviewer: Okay

Veteran: And I was attached to a mechanized infantry unit and I had that signal MOS the whole
time except right at the end I got promoted to Buck Sergeant, well the slot that was available to
me was an infantry slot so my MOS changed when I got them three stripes, and now Sergeant
Moyer is, we had a bulletin board in our company area and I don’t, I don’t, I got to looking at it
too but they had what they call a levy, have you heard this term?

�(10:06)

Interviewer: Yeah, when it’s a, they're recruiting or they're, reassigning people,

Veteran: Reassigning,

Interviewer: When they draw them out of one unit and,

Veteran: Yeah,

Interviewer: Put them in another,

Veteran: They had the list, had the levy guys come down and say the levies came down and
you'd go up there and be a whole bunch of names on there and I think it was from the whole
battalion that you were attached too, and the levy usually meant you were going to Vietnam, it’s
a new duty station,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: I mean it could have been Korea but most of the time it was to Vietnam, well I know
sooner than got these E-5 Sergeant stripes and my name popped up on there, and I had my wife

�over there, and I had orders to leave, I don’t know in six weeks or something like that, but my
wife was pregnant, they wouldn’t let her fly, so I got a deferment,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: And when the baby came and I think they had to wait two months for, they didn’t want
the baby flying until it was two months old, the two months came up, sent her home on an
airplane and then I, I, I don’t know exactly how long after that but four or five months went by
and I said they forgot me, lo and behold they haven’t forgot me, the orders came down again and
I, that’s, requested a leave, 30-day leave, and when that leave was up and my eight to ten days
travel time to get to my next duty station on the way to Vietnam, I only had ten months to go in
the service and I kept thinking they're not gonna take me, they was happy to get me and I went, I
went to Vietnam and I landed there, I had ten months to go,

Interviewer: Okay, to back up a little, talk a little bit about the time you spent in Germany,

(12:00)

Interviewer: What unit were you with there, what were you doing,

Veteran: I was assigned to the 4th Armored Division, and it was a little town called Crailsheim,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

�Veteran: And we had two battalions on that post, there was a, our infantry, mechanized infantry
unit and there was an artillery unit there that, and they were capable of firing, I don’t know what
the proper term is, they could do a nuclear strike,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: But its, not, not nothing big, its, I don’t even know how to say this, there were small
nuclear weapons,

Interviewer: Right, because there were, as in artil-, that could be fired out of artillery pieces,

Veteran: Yes,

Interviewer: Yes, okay

Veteran: They,

Interviewer: Tactical nuclear devices,

Veteran: Whatever that word is, yeah that’s right and they, and they had our infantry battalion
was, were there to protect them when we deployed and Germany was, was good duty, got to go
on passes pretty regularly and go out on the economy and see the castles and,

�Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: And the food, the guest houses, all that, the food was just excellent over there, its, I'm
sure it’s changed but you order a meal over there and you think they brought all this food for me
and my wife and who else is gonna be eating with us,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: Big plates of steamed potatoes, huge bowl of salad you know good gosh, and there, and
they were almost acted offended if you didn’t eat it all, but,

Interviewer: Alright, now when had you gotten married?

Veteran: I got married in AIT in ’68, February and she stuck with me all these years,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: I think we’re on number 48’s coming up,

Interviewer: Alright, and so then she was able to go, now did she go with you to Germany or
could she come out once you made Sergeant or how did that work?

�Veteran: No I went to Germany alone,

(14:01)

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: And as soon as I got there, I checked into what I had to do to get off post privileges,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: You know to live off post,

Interviewer: Right,

Veteran: And they, they told me what I had to do, and I went down and found a place to rent and
I rented it and they approved all this, and, and wrote home, hey get on a plane and get over here,
we got a place to live,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: So we, we lived, we was over there eighteen months,

Interviewer: Okay, so when do you actually go to Vietnam then?

�Veteran: Okay, we came home from Germany and I don’t know if you, there were riots going on
all across the country,

Interviewer: Its 1968, yes,

Veteran: And I remember when I got on the plane here in Springfield Missouri, we was gonna
stop at Kansas City and it was a night flight and I remember they came on the loudspeaker and
they said if your destination is not Kansas City do not leave the terminal, there's the National
Guard Forces out and it, and I remember flying into that airport, you can see fires burning,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: But anyway okay I stayed in the airport and got on the next plane and went to Fort
Lewis Washington,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: And spent a couple weeks there, that’s the first time I ever had an M-16 in my hand and
you know what a neat little rifle, we’d always have M-14s up to then,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm, now by this time have they gotten the M-16 functioning well enough so
you could use it without jamming or,

�Veteran: Okay, I wanna skip a lot to tell you about that,

Interviewer: Okay,

Veteran: When I left Vietnam, when they threw me on that medevac to take me home, or take me
to the hospital, up until that time I never had a malfunction with my M-16, I thought it was a
wonderful weapon,

Interviewer: Okay, alright,

(16:00)

Interviewer: It got better over time, alright so we go back and some people didn’t have trouble to
start with so, anyway so I was gonna go back here, so you got, so basically you're, you're at Fort
Lewis, so do you, were they training you on the M-16 just to kill time or was there something
they wanted to do for people going to Vietnam?

Veteran: I don’t think it was just to kill time,

Interviewer: Okay,

�Veteran: I think they, I think they possibly realized there was a lot of soldiers that had had an M16 in their hand,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: Because that’s when they was converting over from the M-14,

Interviewer: Right, right

Veteran: But we, we were there for two weeks, we did some training on booby traps and
contraband that we were going to run into over there in Vietnam, and it just lasted three weeks or
two weeks anyway,

Interviewer: Okay so to some extent it was an organized program and not just,

Veteran: Oh absolutely,

Interviewer: What you're doing while you're waiting,

Veteran: Oh absolutely,

Interviewer: Okay and then what kind of plane do you fly on, was it commercial or military?

�Veteran: When that was done, and they said go down get on the bus to go to the airport, it’s a
commercial plane, and we landed in Hawaii and dropped a passenger or two off there and wasn’t
there in Hawaii very long at all, but took off again and landed at Wake Island and dropped a
couple of people off there and then they came on the speakers, says we’re gonna be here for
about an hour if you wanna get off and there’s a monument over here somewhere if, you can
read about the battle that was here and all that, and I did get off and Wake Island, I’ll tell you
what if somebody had spit in the ocean I believe they’d have a tidal wave, they, there is no high
point on that island, but anyway we, we got on the plane and we went to Guam, and then from
there we went to Ton Son Nhut Air Force Base outside of Si-, Saigon,

Interviewer: Saigon right, okay now at this point do you know what unit you're going to, or were
you gonna find out after you get there?

Veteran: I’ll tell you about my heart getting broke,

(18:01)

Veteran: We had a couple of weeks of training that was the surge training,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

�Veteran: And when it was all over, they had a big parade field and across the parade field they
had trucks and buses and all of them had emblems on them, or a cardboard sign in the window
that says first cab or whatever,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: And then they had a little tower, up there about ten or fifteen feet and it had a guy with
a bullhorn, and he would call your name and tell you what units you're going to, and there was
about a thousand of us, and there was one other guy there with my last name, and I remember
the, they said Sergeant Moyer 101st Airborne, ain’t me, I ain’t never jumped out of no plane, it’s
gonna be the other guy, well nobody stepped forward, and these drill sergeants, or sergeants you
know how they are when nobody responds to them, it was Sergeant blah-blah-blah, serial
number 101st Airborne, and I said my God that’s me,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: And grabbed my duffle bag and I, I, I always remember this going across that parade
field to that bus and I, I felt like a kid that had just seen his puppy ran over, I am, I am down in
the dumps, what are they gonna do, hey this is the real thing, them guys are I mean I've heard of
the 101st and I went to basic training, was all around them, I got over to the bus and I asked the
driver I said, I told, I said driver they’ve made a mistake with me I've never jumped out of a
plane in my life, and he promptly reassured me we’re not jumping, we just need infantry

�replacements and I thought they ran over my other dog then, I, I was so down in the dumps that
day it was just unreal, and

(20:00)

Interviewer: So at this point you didn’t really know what the 101st had been doing in Vietnam,

Veteran: No,

Interviewer: You were just thinking about jumping out of airplanes, and then being stuck being
infantry,

Veteran: Yean and, I'm, I'm, I have no idea what, what are they gonna use me for, I mean this
driver said they're gonna you as an infantryman,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: But, but I, and I do remember going up there and I don’t remember what movie it is
about Vietnam, and it might be Hamburger Hill, but at the start of the movie they show some
new guys coming into country and some old guys leaving,

Interviewer: They do that in Platoon I know,

�Veteran: Is it Platoon,

Interviewer: Yeah,

Veteran: Okay, but they talk about don’t go to the A Shau, I hope you don’t have to go to the A
Shau, I remember these guys like what the hell is the A Shau,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: And guess where I spent eight months, in the A Shau Valley, and I you know I realized
what they were talking about, but I went up to Phu Bai,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: And promptly got introduced to a night attack, it wasn’t serious, but you know there
sirens are going off, the lights are all being shut off and there's a rocket attack and I can
remember seeing, they told us later it was these 122 rockets,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: A rocket about six foot tall, and you can see them flying across the sky, you can see the,
the sparks and stuff and I thought wow, is this what wars really like, you know I, I, I didn’t know
what war was like, and I don’t have a gun now, they haven’t issued me a weapon right, I'm just

�sitting in a barracks with a bunch of guys, we ain’t got nothing but our fists to fight with, but
anyway went over to Camp Evans after that and got introduced to my first Sergeant, and he said
the guys were out in the field but there's a stand down coming, I didn’t know exactly what a
stand down was which he said they’ll be coming in a couple of days and we’ll, we’ll get you
situated with your company, not your company your platoon,

(22:02)

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: And that’s when I met my guys,

Interviewer: Okay, so what company were you assigned to?

Veteran: I was assigned to Charlie company 2nd platoon, and I was actually 2nd squad,

Interviewer: Okay, and then which battalion regiment?

Veteran: 2nd battalion, 506 Infantry Division,

Interviewer: Regiment, that’s the regiment, the 101st Airborne Division,

Veteran: 101st Airborne Division,

�Interviewer: Yeah

Veteran: That’s right the regiment was 506,

Interviewer: Yeah, you just wanna officially get all that down on the record

Veteran: the 3rd Brigade,

Interviewer: Right, okay so how long did you spend in Camp Evans before they got back in do
you think?

Veteran: It’s just two or three days, and a

Interviewer: Okay,

Veteran: And, and I was very pleased when the guys did come in and they, and again I was
please but I thought here again I'm nervous, cause they said you're gonna be a squad leader,
you're a Sergeant,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

�Veteran: And they introduced me to my squad and I mean these, these rascals looked tough, but
they were a good bunch of guys and I more or less said I'm green as a gourd, when it comes to
what, what you guys are really doing out there help me out, and then we’ll go from there, and
they did,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: I mean I didn’t get bossy with them or you know, we’re gonna do this and that, no
we’re not doing, I did not do that, I let them, I let them lead me, first few weeks, and you get the
hang of what you do, it’s just repetitious you, you go searching out in the jungle it gets lunchtime
you stop, and set up kind of a position that you could defend if something were to happen, you
eat your food, put your rucksack back on, you go out looking some more and at night time you
put your claymore mines out, come back in cook your food and write your letters and,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: Then set up your guard shifts

(24:00)

Veteran: Every night you got pull guard and, in my squad, we pulled guard at least two times a
night and most of the time three times a night because it’d be three men guard, guard positions
and you, and you know dark, dark to daylight,

�Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: There's a lot of hours in there,

Interviewer: How many men in the squad?

Veteran: Eight,

Interviewer: Okay,

Veteran: Sometimes nine, mostly eight, somebody was always off on R and R or somebody was
going home, eight, eight, eight or nine,

Interviewer: Okay, and when do you, did you actually join these guys? Kind of what month or,

Veteran: Oh its November just before Thanksgiving,

Interviewer: Okay, so November ’69, okay

Veteran: Yes,

�Interviewer: Its actually when we were talking before about coming back and the riots and things
like that, that would have been kind of summer of ’69 or early fall or somewhere in there,

Veteran: When I,

Interviewer: You were talking about being, flying from Springfield to Kansas City and staying at
Fort…

Veteran: Oh I see what you're getting,

Interviewer: So that’s, I guess early, somewhere in the fall of ’69,

Veteran: November,

Interviewer: Yeah,

Veteran: It probably would have been September,

Interviewer: Yeah,

Veteran: I'm just guessing at the month,

Interviewer: Yeah,

�Veteran: That, that I did that in,

Interviewer: Okay, alright so anyway we’ve gotten ourselves to November of ’69, you’ve joined
your unit, you're starting to go out into the field, and where were you operating?

Veteran: We were operating in what they call I Corps,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: I Corps is the northernmost part of South Vietnam it starts, the northern edge of it is the
DMZ, and it goes south of a town called Da Nang and over to the Laotian border,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: And all points in between,

Interviewer: Right, and then specifically within that you mentioned going to the A Shau Valley
so is that where you were operating?

Veteran: That’s where I operated at, the A Shau Valley, I was wounded in my eighth month and
the previous seven months were spent in the A Shau Valley,

�Interviewer: Okay, so what,

(26:00)

Interviewer: What was going on there militarily or whatever at the time you got there, was there
much enemy activity or was it quieter?

Veteran: When I was over there, there was right at a hundred GI’s a month dying in all of
Vietnam, and the first month I was over there I don’t remember experiencing anybody in our
company dying,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: But every now and then you'd hear about somebody, somebody got it over in bravo
company or, and it, I was over there a couple of months before we, our company actually took
any casualties,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: We had to send home in a body bag, but you know I, I'm thinking how unlucky was that
guy and all this and, and you know, and we did, we did a lot of searching and finding nothing,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

�Veteran: And I’ve, I’ve jokingly and I hate to trivialize what I am saying, it was a big campout,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: I mean I went for, oh I know there was times I went two weeks without firing my
weapon, but when you did fire it you know things got exciting, most fire fights lasted less than
ten minutes, five minutes,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm, so these just be a handful or a couple of the,

Veteran: Trail watchers is what we called them, they’ve got a camp down the trail a quarter mile
or something and they're just the advanced warning if something goes wrong, shut that off,

*Screen goes black*

Interviewer: Alright so we have you at this point in, in Vietnam, you’ve shown up at the end, and
you’ve gone out in the field at the end of the year in ’69, you say you’ve kind of got there before
Thanksgiving where you, on Thanksgiving day do you remember if you were in the field or on a
firebase or,

Veteran: Absolutely remember where I was at that day, we were in the foothills,

�(28:00)

Veteran: West of Camp Evans, and the mountains were just beyond us, they sent out a helicopter
on Thanksgiving day and they'd had these coolers had had cranberries in this one, mashed
potatoes in this one, gravy in this one, turkey and dressing in this one, and they even sent some
milk out and that was a very, very rare thing to have, I know, I know, as far as the food went I, I,
I actually craved milk or something sweet,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: Because we just didn’t have that and, but it was a very good meal and a couple hours
later choppers came back out and picked up all that stuff,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: And we’re back to eating c-rations again,

Interviewer: Right,

Veteran: But it was a good break, it, I mean I don’t know in the rear organized that or said they
had to do this, or they did it just because it was the right thing to do,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

�Veteran: But they did do it and it was very nice

Interviewer: Mm-hmm, alright it was something commonplace in the 1st Cavalry Division
because they had lots of helicopters, it varied for a lot of other units and sometimes the food
came in and already spoiled so you got lucky,

Veteran: I, I guess I did, yeah

Interviewer: Alright now who was your company commander when you join the unit, do you
remember?

Veteran: I believe his name, I'm gonna say Lamb,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm because you had a picture of a Captain Lamb in your book so I expect
that was,

Veteran: I, I think he was our and I didn’t have enough rank to hob knob with them people,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm, right,

Veteran: So I didn’t, I didn’t break bread with them, and I mean I didn’t get to talk to them very
often,

�Interviewer: Mm-hmm, and do you remember who your platoon leader was?

Veteran: No,

Interviewer: Okay,

(30:00)

Interviewer: Cause they also came and went,

Veteran: I think his, we called him Queenie and his name might have been Queen, but that’s,

Interviewer: Okay, now had your unit been involved in the Hamburger Hill fight before you
joined it?

Veteran: I don’t know,

Interviewer: Okay so they didn’t talk about that,

Veteran: That’s 101st, that’s a 101st battle but,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

�Veteran: I don’t know if my actual battalion was involved in that or not,

Interviewer: Alright, okay so you're out there, now my understanding is you spend some time in,
in the A Shau and then some point early in 1970 you're back at Camp Evans or along the coast or
up toward the DMZ, you're different people from that company have kind of mentioned different
places, do you remember, because you talked about being in the foothills at Thanksgiving so you
weren’t all the way on the A Shau at that point,

Veteran: Right at the edge of it,

Interviewer: Yeah so would you kind of go in and out or just stay there for a while and then get
out or what do you recall about where you went?

Veteran: Well this foothills thing, that, that was rare,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: I mean, I, and, and the weather was different right there because we were in lower
altitude,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

�Veteran: And it was hot,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: Most of the time, like I said we were in the A Shau, at nighttime, I ain't gonna say it
gets cold but it does get cold, and when the rains come I mean it is cold, but as far as being back
at Camp Evans I don’t know, every three or four weeks we get to go to Camp Evans for a threeday stand down,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: And that was, I mean that was, that was a break you didn’t have to pull guard duty at
night, you got to sleep all night, which you know that, that’s very unusual we got to sleep all
night, but I never went to the DMZ,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: Just basically, just twenty-five miles due west to Camp Evans was just where I was at,
within a,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

(32:00)

�Veteran: I don’t a five-mile circle,

Interviewer: Alright, now one of the things that happened with your particular company was that
there's sort of several changes of commander, couple of them anyway while you're there, and a
Captain Vazquez would have come in,

Interviewer: Veteran: Mm-hmm

Interviewer: At some point early in 1970, what impression did you have of him?

Veteran: Like I said before I didn’t hob knob with these guys, they're more rank than I will, I
wanna be associated with but we, we learned to respect Captain Vazquez, he was not gonna let
us get in too big a jam, I mean we might get into a problem but he, he, we, you could tell this
man here he knew what to do about it, he didn’t have to call for help he knew what to do,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: And he can get us out of it, in fact Captain Vazquez he was a, he was a soldier’s soldier,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm, right and did anything in terms of what you did in the field, did any
practicality change the way you did anything or were things more subtle than that?

�Veteran: When Captain Vazquez took over, probably the biggest change I remember that from
what we normally did, we looked harder for the enemy,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: With Captain Vazquez, I mean the other, the other you know, might not have to do a lot
of searching, and then do that for three or four days but maybe a helicopter pick you up and take
you to the other side of the ridge, you do it again, but Vazquez we, we, we covered a lot of
ground with that man,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm and he talks about never wanting to use trails, is that what you recalled,
did you have to cut your own way or?

Veteran: I, I don’t remember that particular thing and I, and maybe somebody there with us does
remember that,

(34:00)

Veteran: I do remember we did make a lot of trails, but I had never thought of it, you know he
kept us off of established trails, I do remember we found trail markers when we were on trails,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

�Veteran: And that, that was kind of a scary thing that, you know somebody put signs up saying
something,

Interviewer: So that’s basically to give the North Vietnamese directions for when they're using
the trails?

Veteran: Yeah, this trail here is good, this ones booby-trapped,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: Yeah, I mean, and I don’t know exactly, but I do remember seeing these, these little
chop marks in trees and there's the trail goes two different ways,

Interviewer: Okay, did you have any Vietnamese with you, in your company? Did they have a
Chieu Hoi or somebody?

Veteran: We had a Chieu Hoi, our platoon had one and Hap was his name,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: Or that’s all I ever know of him by, and he was quite, we, we trusted him,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

�Veteran: He, I do remember one of these trail markers he, he said no, no, no, no, I forget the
language he used,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: But he is talking Vietnamese we don’t want to go that way, and we didn’t,

Interviewer: Okay so he seemed to know at least something about what was going on out there?

Veteran: Oh absolutely he did, I mean, and I can understand that, I mean once the North
Vietnamese soldiers came down there that, I mean they had a set of trail markers and it was
good, it was good for anybody,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: In their outfits that came by this, so it, it wasn’t a real secretive thing,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: That the way, what these trail markers meant,

�Interviewer: Okay, alright so you spend, so if you kind of go from November, December or
January February March,

(36:00)

Interviewer: You're kind of doing pretty much the same thing?

Veteran: Well during that period when the monsoons came,

Interviewer: Okay,

Veteran: That was a, that was ugly, we, we got socked in and we’re just, the rain is just unde-,
you can’t describe it, its I mean when the season started you know every day at two o’clock it’s
raining, and a few days later it seems like it starts at noon, and then it just progresses over that
first month until its, its literally raining all day long,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: And that goes on for three or four weeks and then, then it tapers back down but up there
in the mountains it was, normal time it was cold at night, I mean you, well during the monsoon
season you, I, it’s a wonder we didn’t catch pneumonia out there,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

�Veteran: Because we’re wet all the time and I don’t remember anybody ever catching pneumonia
come to think of it, it, leaches were bad, I mean good gosh and when I was, before I went over to
Vietnam I can remember swimming in a creek and you might get a little ole leach a half-inch or
an inch long on you, and it’s all just, ehh, just,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: Curls your skin to take his thing sucking blood out of you, and we get over there and
they got these leaches that live on dry land, I mean you're going up the side of a mountain and
these things are crawling on you and, and I don’t know what they do when they bite you, they,
they did in the skin or something because most of the time you don’t feel them chewing on you,
what you feel is when they're bloated and grotesque and they fall off of you and they roll down
your pants leg, that’s what you feel, they're full, they’ve had enough but, and I, and I do
remember this and this is probably kind of,

(38:00)

Veteran: A GI will find a way to goof off or have fun one way or another, and we had this
mosquito repellent if a leech is on you, you squirt that on him and he would fall off but the
repellant kind of burnt where the blood was, but we, we catch on of these leeches and we find a
rock or something and put him right in the middle of it and put a circle of this insect repellant

�around it and watch him try to get out of that and I mean it’s just silly stupid stuff, but it was
entertaining,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: We didn’t have much entertainment out there,

Interviewer: Alright, now most of the time when you were in the field in this period, did you
operate in individual platoons or have the whole company together or break down in squads, I
mean was there a normal procedure?

Veteran: In my outfit, we operated in company strength rarely,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: I mean we might move into an area and the whole company is there, but this platoon
goes over this way and this platoon goes, and when we were in platoons, when I was in platoon
strength a lot,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: But every now and then you could tell somebody from up above, Captain Vazquez or
somebody’s called in, send a squad out here on an ambush, or we got a resupply day, Lieutenant

�Campbell we need somebody to recon down this side of this mountain to the bottom across the
river, go up the other side and turn around and come back and the next day is probably, that’s
probably where we’re going, but really rarely operated in squad strength,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: Mostly in platoon strength,

Interviewer: And most of that time about how many men did you have in the platoon?

Veteran: Twenty-five, that was probably, again we, we carried more than that but there was
always somebody in,

(40:02)

Veteran: You know they’ve smashed their toe or something and they're, they're in the rear
recovery, they're on R and R, so we were always short,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: We never had full strength, I never remember, I said it, I don’t even know what full
strength was, but I know we didn’t have enough men all the time,

�Interviewer: Yeah, so a lot larger than what your company had,

Veteran: Yeah,

Interviewer: So okay, so you're like, now in, starting in the middle or March of 1970, that’s when
they make their first effort to set up what will become Firebase Ripcord,

Veteran: That’s true,

Interviewer: And initially this Alpha Company goes in and then B Company actually tries,

Veteran: And both of them had lots of problems,

Interviewer: Yeah, and they both leave, and we get into April, now its C Company’s turn to go
in,

Veteran: Yeah, I mean this is like B Company got fired up and the next day they told us we’re
going up there,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: And when, it’s one of the, there's a few things in Vietnam I will never forget, and, and I
called them rotten SOB’s, they flew a chaplain out to have communion or whatever, some kind

�of services for us before we left, I thought my God they're gonna get us killed, where are we
going,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: And I know they said everybody go to the ammo dump, draw extra grenades and more
ammo than you normally carry, and we did that, and I do remember virtually every man dropped
a letter in the mail sack,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: As we was boarding them choppers, and consequently we, we’re up there and we are
circling around their artillery going off down there, and then they brought us in and we spent that
first night on the side of that mountain,

(42:00)

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: And then the next morning we walked up there and didn’t fire a shot, I mean it was,
they'd left, and, and then he start of the helicopters coming in bringing concertina wire and you
name it, just everything that, that hill needed to defend itself,

�Interviewer: Alright, now do you remember if Captain Vazquez was with you on that very first
night or did he come in the next day?

Veteran: No I don’t remember this,

Interviewer: Okay, alright, now what was, as the base is getting established and your company is
still up there on top of that hill, what kind of work did you do?

Veteran: My, well basically we were all told, we’ve got to make this defendable, and if you
weren’t digging a fighting trench and a bunker to sleep in, you were out clearing trees and stuff
down below rolling them up and just making a field of fire that they don’t have much to hide
behind, and put more concertina wire up and, getting ammo boxes and building the front of your
fighting trench up with them and the three top layers are full of grenades, and, and in your M-16
magazines and one of the boxes probably have a, the firing devices for the claymore mines, and
gosh we must have had, there was four of us in that bunker and, and we must have had a dozen
claymores out in front of us, because we weren’t packing them around,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: We were just, you was just going up and getting them, keep setting them out and we
dug a hole for a fifty-five-gallon drum that we had fougas out of, and we set two claymores
behind it and put the can in there and fill it up with the,

�(44:02)

Veteran: JP4, that’s aviation fuel and I don’t remember what we, we mixed it up,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: With sawdust or something,

Interviewer: Somebody, somebody suggested it was soap powder or,

Veteran: Soap powder, I don’t remember, we did mix it with something to make it,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: Coagulate a little bit,

Interviewer: Right

Veteran: And it becomes kind of, it stick to you a little bit better, but we put two claymores
behind it and ran the cord back to a firing position, and that, that’s an impressive thing to see get
set off,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

�Veteran: It, it would make me change my mind what, what I was wanting to do,

Interviewer: Yeah it just a giant burst of flame,

Veteran: Oh,

Interviewer: Popping up right in front of you, yeah. How long do you think you spent on top of
Ripcord? At least that first time,

Veteran: Oh that first time, shoot, it’s probably about thirty days,

Interviewer: Okay,

Veteran: We, and that was good duty, I mean, I mean you weren’t even out humping around, I
mean the, the night time over in Vietnam its, there's a song, you curse the darkness and you pray
for the light, and it didn’t matter if you was on Firebase Ripcord or you was out in the jungle in a
small outfit, the darkness it just it, I will say this the darker it was, the safer you felt because I
mean when its pitch black, in the jungle with that triple canopy you can’t move in it without
making a lot of noise, so I mean that was the safety margin right there,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

�Veteran: It’s in big moonlit night, I wrote letters home at two o’clock in the morning in the
moonlight,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: and now that’s, that’s, that’s when you should be more alert because that’s, the enemy
can move around and be reasonably quiet,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: Yeah,

Interviewer: Alright, so you're up there, now during that time, I mean did the enemy make any
effort either to probe position or did they shoot anything at you while you were up there?

(46:01)

Veteran: Occasionally, not very much, we might take two or three mortar rounds one day and the
probing part of it, they could have probed us every night I wouldn’t have known any different,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

�Veteran: But I'm sure they did probe us occasionally, but I don’t remember taking a small arms
fire while we were there,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: No RPGs, and your direct fire weapons, but they did mortar us ever, yeah, I mean every
three or four days, accept right when the big battle started, now that’s a different story, all, all
them things I said didn’t happen,

Interviewer: Right,

Veteran: Did happen,

Interviewer: Yeah, okay but initially it, it’s fairly quiet and in some ways its,

Veteran: Good duty

Interviewer: Things were going the way they were supposed to,

Veteran: Yup,

Interviewer: And after that thirty days or whatever it is, now your company goes out in the field
now?

�Veteran: Then we do a, then we do a patrol and they rotated us,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: Bravo Company or Alpha Company came in and they did what we were doing, see this
would have been in April and in May,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: And then June we went back, and we’re up on the hill,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: And we, we got some more of this good duty, that’s what I called it, and I, I do
remember this, I don’t remember if it’s our last night on Ripcord or our next to last night, there
was a poker game going on, and it’s in one of the bunkers, and we jury-rigged these lights down
underneath there, you know you couldn’t see them from outside, but there was, I don’t know
four or five maybe even six men down there playing poker and I didn’t have enough money to
play poker but it was entertainment,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

�Veteran: You get to watch them, and I do remember our Captain at that time, he, he was loaning
people money, get them back in the game, he was taking IOU’s,

(48:00)

Veteran: And I can vaguely remember him saying something about this is a car payment, I'm
gonna make a car payment this month, and this is Captain Hewitt,

Interviewer: Because by this time Vazquez has been taken out of the field,

Veteran: Yeah,

Interviewer: Because he had been there too long already and now new Captain has come in to
replace him, do you have much of an impression of Captain Hewitt or did you not know him
well enough to know anything?

Veteran: Well see we were out in the jungle before we came up on Ripcord,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: And that’s where I first got in, in contact with him, and we did travel in company
strength,

�Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: A little more with him than we did with Vazquez,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: But Captain, Captain Hewitt carried a, a pump shotgun and a 22 semi-automatic pistol,
and right off the bat this is odd, you know what, what kind of a guy have we got, you’ve got
impressions of a man that does something, I mean he’s going against the rules, you carry an M16 or a machine gun or a grenade launcher or something like that,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: And here he’s got these and I, I can really feel we’re going on another rabbit hunt,
we’re, we’re going off in general we’re looking for rabbits and, I'm gonna say my first
impression of him, I was not real secure with him leading us,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: But anyway in that poker game I know he won a lot of money and a lot of it was going
be on payday stakes and that kind of stuff,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

�Veteran: And then that, might have been the next day or the day after that, we went to the ridge
line that 902’s on, and we landed, I'm guessing a half mile from it and we all went in there and
we secured the area and did all that stuff, and then next day we headed towards 902, I mean I had
no idea where our destination was,

(50:00)

Veteran: Or where they wanted us to go, I mean we got there and they said you know set up
camp and that’s a, that would have been on the afternoon, wasn’t July 1st, it a day before that,

Interviewer: Yeah June 30,

Veteran: Yeah, we’re out there and Ripcord starts taking mortar shells, that firebase is, I mean
this, this wasn’t probing this is, they’ve, they’ve been zeroing in guns for three months or two
months and these tubes were, they were hitting Ripcord, and you know we said something’s
going on, and we’re sitting there, a lot of us are watching it and a chinook helicopter came into
Ripcord with a sling load of something, and they had heavy machine guns set up somewhere
close because they shot this rascal down, they forced it down, didn’t, didn’t crash and burn right
then, and they sent another chinook out there to sling it up and carry it out of there, well they did
the same thing to it, they shot it down and you know we’re sitting there watching all this and go
wow, you know something, somethings going on, this, this is unusual and it was somewhere
right in there we could hear the sound of a mortar tube on the mountain that we’re on somewhere

�down near the bottom of it and its, it’s a long ways to the bottom of it and one of these mortar
tubes that’s firing on Ripcord just right down here and we, we, we’re talking this over you know
we’re trying to course where it’s at, till we can get some directions to them to fire artillery down
there, and I don’t remember if it was another sergeant or me and a,

(52:00)

Veteran: Just another squad member, but we, we gathered up a couple of LAW anti-tank missiles
and we went over to that side of the hill which is really right where my, my position was and I
fired one and he fired one and I’d be foolish to think that we knocked them out, but I do know
this, they quit firing,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: And I don’t, I really don’t think we hit them, that, I mean we just randomly shot them
and I mean this things got a range of like four-hundred meters and I mean we’re shooting this
thing is, it’s going way over a quarter of a mile away down the side of that mountain, I mean
you, you shoot it and you, you count to ten or fifteen before you hear the thing blow up down
there,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

�Veteran: But I've always said they didn’t like us up there pinpointing where their mortar position
was,

Interviewer: Right,

Veteran: And now we’ve already spent a night there,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: And,

Interviewer: So now this is July 1st that you're doing the shooting LAWS then,

Veteran: Yes, this is July 1st when all this is going on and I've always kind of guessed they didn’t
like us being up there pinpointing where they're at,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: And I mean all during the day there's jets coming in dropping bombs, the F-4, the fast
movers, they're coming in and I, I seen some planes I’d never seen before come in there and drop
ordnance, but we’d never spent two night in a row in the same place,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

�Veteran: Until then, and again Vazquez wouldn’t, I, I believe if the, if the Battalion Commander
would have told him to sit there a second night, he would have moved us fifty yards nothing else,
I mean we might still be right there close, but we would have moved,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

(54:00)

Veteran: But we did not move, and they, well they came up and got us that night,

Interviewer: Okay, now did you dig new defensive positions or reuse the ones from the night
before?

Veteran: We didn’t move, we stayed right where we were,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: And I mean there was modifications made to them, make them, making them better,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

�Veteran: But now we’re, we’re right in the same place, we didn’t move, I mean we got a Captain
there with us, we’ve got two Lieutenants there with us and,

Interviewer: Did you have, well you had Bob Leibecke,

Veteran: Yup,

Interviewer: One of the platoons wasn’t there,

Veteran: Jim Campbell, my platoon leader he was on R and R,

Interviewer: Yeah but one whole platoon wasn’t there either, cause Sergeant Burkey

Veteran: Burkey was on Ripcord, yes, I think he’s third platoon,

Interviewer: Yeah so you got two platoons on there,

Veteran: Yeah,

Interviewer: And,

Veteran: Under strength,

�Interviewer: Yeah, yeah and then okay, so there wasn’t another Officer, but I know there was
forward artillery forward observer was up there

Veteran: Yeah that was a, three Officers,

Interviewer: Yeah and you had, was one platoon led by a Sergeant, or now is, because Campbell
wasn’t there,

Veteran: Right,

Interviewer: Right, okay so not very many men to start with,

Veteran: Yeah and short one Lieutenant,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: And, and what, where I was getting with on that I mean there, there's three Lieutenants
there and who am I to say hey we’re really not staying here again,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: I mean, I mean it wouldn’t have done any good anyway I don’t think,

�Interviewer: Okay, well alright so now it gets to be nightfall and then what happens?

Veteran: Well we set up our guard rotation like we’ve been doing for previous eight months that
I've been there,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: And there were three men positions, there may have been a few four man positions but
that was the most men at on position,

(56:01)

Veteran: And the average guard shift at my position was like an hour and fifteen minutes, and if
you got three guys there you can see you're not gonna get sleep just a couple of hours, two and a
half hours, and then you're gonna be woke up again and you’ll pull, you pulled about three hours,
or three guard shifts in a night, and I remember the Platoon Sergeant came over and woke me up
and it’s your turn, your guard shift,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: That’s okay that’s cool, and I got up and its, it’s a routine you, you grab your rifle and
you grab your helmet and you move over by the claymore firing devices,

�Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: And, and we had a radio right there, and I'm listening on the radio and I hadn’t been up
fifteen minutes through, its 3:15 now, and somebody on the hill and I couldn’t identify them said
they had movement out in front of them, this is not unusual, there are animals all over Vietnam
and we’ve had movement many many times,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: But you pay attention to it, you don’t just disregard it and say it is an animal, and I'm
listening to that okay, and somebody else is doing this too, they're saying yeah I've got
movement out in front of me, and it, it perks your ears up a little bit well now I got movement
out in front of me, and I got on the radio and I called the CP, I don’t know if it was Doc Cafferty
or who it was I was talking to in the CP, but I said we’ve got three positions that’s got movement
in front of them, we need to start waking people up and go at least a fifty percent alert, and I’ll
get back with you, okay, minute or two passed and he came back and he says yeah start waking
people up, I laid the, my mic down and,

(56:00)

Veteran: I started crawling back to where that Sergeant was and all hell broke loose as I started
over there, in his position there were three men and two of them were killed, the third one is a

�missing in action guy and I'm just speculating, when we got overrun and I, I'm just speculating
again I think that position there is where they overrun us from,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: But when they left, I think they may have drugged this man off, thinking it was one of
their own if nothing else,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: I, you know, I don’t know, and I know if you lose somebody in combat it’s a very
demoralizing thing, and they may have been thinking along them lines I, I really don’t know,

Interviewer: Yeah, they, they had a policy of trying to recover their bodies and part of it was they
didn’t want us to know how many we killed,

Veteran: And they were human beings, they, they worshiped, or they bowed down to God and
yeah, they believed in the hereafter and all that,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: So they tried to recover their bodies too, but you know all three of their men were
wiped out right immediately,

�Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: RPG or something, I don’t know it could have been a big satchel charge,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: Something blew up right there in their, and then plus the Captain and his position was
hit immediately, and this gets back to, I really think they were probing us,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: In the daylight, and I, I don’t, they probably couldn’t believe their good fortune when
we stayed there the second day,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: And they really got us probed because I mean they, they hit the CP and that, that just
wasn’t a random shot,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

�Veteran: And plus that one position they took it out and I don’t know who it was over there at
that position, they did not die immediately, Ripcord was firing illumination for us,

(1:00:00)

Veteran: And when the lights were up and burning things got real quiet, and I mean you look
around and you see these shadows moving from that parachute coming down, and that makes the
shadows move,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: And I mean your eyes are just going back and forth you know what, is something
moving there, and no its just a shadow, but they did not keep the illumination up continuously,
they, they missed timed it a little bit, and sometimes the lights would go out, and when the,

Interviewer: Okay, alright this tape is about up so we’re gonna pause right here and the,

*Screen goes black*

Interviewer: Now we’ve gotten you to the point of the beat, the beat, onset of the attack on hill
902, I guess early morning hours on July 2nd 1970, so the first blast is gone off in your sector, the
hole you were just very close too, and you're talking about the, there's illuminations rounds

�dropping and the enemy moving around someplace, so what do you do yourself after that blast,
once the attack started?

Veteran: I threw two hand grenades, that’s the first thing I did, I mean I, there's things you do in
combat when, when, when somethings happening, every night when you go to bed you know
where your pistol belt, you know where your grenades are, you know where your helmet is and
you know where your rifle is, and okay I know there's a battle going on, I'm grabbing all these
things and I'm throwing two grenades, just right out in front of me just kind of left and right one,
and I blew a couple of claymore mines and now I've got my rifle and I'm trying to find a target
when the lights are on,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: And this man to my left, and I, I don’t know who it was but they, they were in agony

(1:02:00)

Veteran: And the medic was right there with me and, and there are satchel charges going off all
over this hill just, you know I don’t know how many it was but dozens if not twenty-five or thirty
of them,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

�Veteran: Real quick like went off and he said, I'm gonna go, I'm gonna go get him and I, I do
remember telling him hold one a minute, let’s get this, let’s get this thing under control then you
go help everybody, and this guy’s moaning over there, well he’s drawing satchel charges and
these things are going off ten or fifteen feet from us,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: And you could tell when one landed close to this man the intensity of his screams got
really blood-curdling, anyway he says I've got to go help that man and he started to move and he
was shot and he died at my feet,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: And this, this thing with the lights going off and on, this went on for an hour, hour and
a half I mean, untold satchel charges went off,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: If I was guessing I hate to say a thousand explosions were on that hill that night, but I
don’t think I’d miss very many, very much, it was just lots of them,

Interviewer: Now was there rifle fire too or just the satchel charges?

�Veteran: I remember very little rifle fire, I mean these were smart soldiers, there was
undoubtedly some, but at this point I mean, my ear drums were already broke,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: Or I, when they tested me, I had one ear drum broken, the other one was just a, just a
loud ringing,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: And, but a gun fire you could still hear it even when your, you still hear something,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

(1:04:00)

Veteran: And I remember us, and I, I was disorientated a little bit about what was going on, to
me I mean we’re invincible there ain't nobody gonna do this to us,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: There's enemy out in front wanting to do something to us and I'm gonna take care of
them, the enemy is in front of me, I had no idea we was already overrun, and I still didn’t put two

�and two together when a satchel charge hot my leg and I could feel it kind of bounce bounce
bounce off my leg coming towards me and I'm laying out, and I'm, I mean I immediately started
crawling forward just as fast as I could, and I'm hanging on to my helmet waiting for this thing to
blow up, and it was a dud, it didn’t blow up, I scooted myself back I still didn’t put two and two
together this came from behind me,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: But just a few minutes later another one landed real close to me, I didn’t know it, and
when it blew up it blew me over the side of the hill and I lost all my spare ammo at that point, I
did keep my helmet and I kept my rifle and, and I remembered I just put a few magazine in my
rifle so I had a full magazine, but when I quit rolling around, I, I remember looking back over my
left shoulder and my fatigue pants were on fire, and I've always said I don’t know how close that
satchel charge was to me to actually set my pants on fire but it had to be close, but anyway, all I
could think about is they could see me, I mean I'm, I'm on fire, I got little flickering flames on
my fatigue pants, and this is when, the scaredist I've ever been in my life was at this point right
here, I took my hand and I started swatting these little flickering flames out,

(1:06:01)

Veteran: And I got them out, I put them out, but my hand could feel my leg but leg could not feel
my hand, and I did not know how bad I was hurting, and I'm telling you its, just sends chills up
my spine just thinking about that, but anyway I'm there with a full magazine, my legs fortunately

�I wasn’t hurting very bad, but it was numb and lights, the flare popped up there and I'm gonna,
I've got a soldier in front of me and I can remember, I can remember this man just plain as day he
reminded me of a puppet, as I was going pop pop pop pop pop, I could see his shoulder jerk I can
see a hip double up a little bit and, and I just go, pop pop pop pop and something said you don’t
have any more ammo, an di quit shooting and I remember reaching around and feeling the dust
cover on my M-16 and the bolt was closed, I thought I've got a bullet in the chamber, and I said
right then and there somebody’s gonna have to be trying to pick me up or stick a bayonet in me
before I shoot him again, and I know I've got at least one bullet left and come to find out that
when morning came and, the battle, the battle ended shortly after that,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: They left, they pulled out and left and I probably had thirty to forty-five minutes of
darkness before daylight, and with my eardrums broke if anybody was saying anything I couldn’t
hear it and this was the new emotion I went through, I thought I was the only man left alive on
that hill, scaredist I've ever, this superseded that other scared thing I was at,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: And, but I do know when daylight came, I,

(1:08:00)

�Veteran: I'm just kind of looking around and I seen a helmet, and that’s one of our, that’s one of
our kind of helmets, and it was a machine gun off to my right, and there was three guys there and
they, they seen me we did hi signs to each other and one of the assistant gunners started crawling
towards me and he had two grenades and had had the pins pulled on them but he’s crawling
towards me holding them grenades and I did, I've always said he looked just like John Wayne if
he had had a bayonet in his mouth but he didn’t have the bayonet, but he crawled up to me and
he said you know what, and I just pointed out and that’s, that’s the last place I seen any gooks is
right there, and he threw both his hand grenades there and they blew up, guys were starting to stir
then,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: They picked me up and choppers were coming in and they carried me up to the hill and
I never seen so many bodies in my life as there was, we passed, and they were mostly gooks,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: The enemy soldiers and I remember they threw me on the chopper, and they unloaded a
few men and then they threw the wounded, the wounded went first and then the dead went on the
next chopper and their third or fourth chopper, but they sent me, and the man named Mike
Mueller,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

�Veteran: We were together, we got back to the rear and they started ripping our clothes off and
dobbing us up with merthiolate, picking rocks and stuff out of us and then they sent us back to a
tent that had just cots in it, and we spent the rest of the day there and the next morning which
would be twenty-six hours after the battle we’re wondering about where do we get some food at,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: And the nurse said, its right there's a tent right there that they, they serve food,

(1:10:00)

Veteran: And me and this other guy we, we, we could walk and Mike you coming with us and
Mike said I, my leg is killing me, and he had shrapnel and all up and down from his ankle all the
way up to his shoulder on that one side, and okay we’ll bring you back something, we went, did
this and brought him back some food, well he didn’t feel like eating and got the nurse in there
and he’s telling her how his leg hurts and she said can you two guys help him down to the x-ray
tent which I swear is a block away and I, I, I said if we didn’t look like a mess hobbling down
there with him and anyway we took him into the x-ray tent and they were working on him and
doing what they have to do there, me and this other guy we’re looking at some of their x-ray
pictures that are hanging up there, they brought some more out we’re looking at them and you
see broken bones and what have you, well there was this one x-ray picture that showed a would
channel that was probably fourteen inches long, sixteen inches long and there is a pristine

�undeformed bullet right at the end of it, I, I said wow look at this, somebody had a bullet in them,
and this guy came in and said hey that’s your buddy, he’s got a bullet in him,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: And anyway, they gurnied him out there on the table and he said Sergeant Moyer can
you go back to the tent and get my billfold and cigarettes, sure, I hobble up there, I get this stuff
and I come back and he is gone, he’s on a helicopter going somewhere,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: Well a couple of days later they sent me to Cam Ranh Bay to rest and relaxation,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: Convalescent type deal and as I went through Da Nang,

(1:12:01)

Veteran: I ran into a Sergeant that was doing the flight manifests and I told him this same story
and he said, I, give it to me I know what to do with that billfold that’s no big deal, and I thought
about I don’t know this man from Adam, there's, there's like eighty bucks in this billfold and you
know it’s got his ID card and a few other things, I said you know what the heck I'm gonna, I'm

�gonna put some faith in my fellow man, I gave it to him and I didn’t talk to Mike for twenty-five
years, it was about twenty-five years after the battle and I was talking to the man who wrote the
book,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: Keith Nolan, talked to him for an hour and a half, two hours an di got to asking him
about who he interviewed, and Mike Mueller’s name came up and I says you’ve been talking to
Mike Mueller and he said yeah he lives up in Alaska, and I said yeah that’s same, same Mike
Mueller I know and he gave me his phone number and I remember calling Mike and you know
this is Sergeant Moyer and Mike stuttered terrible,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: He, he was comical to be around, and after we introduced each other I said Mike did
you get your billfold, and he said it caught up to him about six months later in a hospital and he
said the money was in there,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: And I said that’s a happy ending to a story right there,

Interviewer: Alright now as for you,

�Veteran: Yes,

Interviewer: Okay so you got, you went through Da Nang, you went down to Cam Ranh Bay,

Veteran: Yes,

Interviewer: Okay and then did you just convalesce there, or did you go someplace else or?

Veteran: No, when I left Da Nang and got to Cam Ranh Bay, well I had two months to go in the
service,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: And I, you know they're gonna send me home, no they're not they're gonna send me to
Cam Ranh Bay and, and recover and go back to my unit,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: The only thing was the recovery took two months,

(1:14:01)

�Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: And when I left Cam Ranh Bay, I only had like three or four days to go in the service
and I got back to my unit, the company clerk gave me a clipboard and I had no idea, you know
I've done, I had done this in the state sides and in Europe signed off a post,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: You go to the library, the barber shop, anybody you’ve done business with you sign off
if you don’t owe them no money or anything like that and he handed me this and I said we’ve got
some of these things on Camp Evans you know like a, well a barber shop,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: And there was a, a massage parlor there and, and I had to go get signatures you know,
of course you’ve gotta go through the supply room, the arms room, and I, I did all that, it didn’t
take long but got to the arms room and I did have problems there, a man said you need to turn
your rifle in, and I said I have no idea not a clue where my rifle is and, and I had to explain to
him what happened when I was wounded, I said they didn’t, they didn’t give me a rifle to ride
that chopper back home with, my rifle is on hill 902 is the last place I seen it, and he said well we
gotta sit down and fill out some more paperwork, it is a combat loss, and but that, that’s all that
that amounted to but he made me a little nervous,

�Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: When he asked me for my rifle and he said we got a problem, but it was just had to do
some paperwork, combat loss,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm, alright so now you're pretty much back in one piece but you're also out
of time so,

Veteran: Still got one day to go,

Interviewer: Okay,

Veteran: First Sergeant came to me and he says go to the arms room, check out a 45 and get
some ammo for it and I want you to go down to the chopper pad,

(1:16:00)

Veteran: We’ve got these coolers and they're full of sirloin steaks, I don’t know a half dozen
coolers, he said I want you to make sure they get out to Firebase O’Reilly, that’s where our
company’s at, they're doing perimeter guard on it,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

�Veteran: And they’ve got the barbecue grill thing set up out there and see that every man gets at
least one and there should be enough for every man to get two, and I thought damn I’m going
back out to the field, but I said I'm gonna get to see my guys,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: This is gonna be worth it, and this is probably around noon or one o’clock and chopper
came in and we loaded them on there, we flew out there and we’re doing the barbecue and I'm
going down to the bunker where my squad was and I'm talking to them and they're telling me
about some of the things that happened right after 902,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: And you know, you know how much time they got left to go and be glad when this is
over and I said well I know what you're saying and I am glad that its over for me, well I, I
lollygagged around talking to these guys and it got near five or six o’clock I don’t remember
what the exact time was, but I went back up to the flight pad and I asked somebody up there, I
said when’s the, when’s the next chopper gonna be out here, and he said tomorrow morning, I
said you mean there's no more choppers coming out here tonight, he said no you're gonna spend
the night out here, I said you gotta be kidding me, well anyway I went back down to where my
guys were and I said yeah you're not gonna believe this I got to spend another night here, well
they had a mad minute that night if you know what a mad minute is, that’s where they test the
firing of all the different positions to make sure there's not something that’s not covered, I, I

�think there’s somebody up there in a helicopter a long ways away but they can watch what’s
going on,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: And they can see if they need to adjust any of the positions and all that,

(1:18:00)

Veteran: But for one minute you get to fire your weapons, you don’t get to thrown grenades and
you don’t get to blow your claymore mines but you, they want to see where the firings going to
and it’s about one o’clock in the morning they pop the rad flare right up there and I mean that hill
lit up and I got my 45 and I'm John Wayneing it just firing it all over the, till I'm out of bullets
and, and that’s that, went to bed,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: Pulled the shift guard and next morning I got on a chopper, went back to Evans got on a
helicopter went to Da Nang, and got manifested on a flight, and we roll down the runway and we
was just screaming and hollering and whoppy indeed, I mean we were happy that plane got off
the ground and somebody said get this thing out over the ocean,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

�Veteran: Get it away from this country, and, and I know all the stops I had when I went over
there, we were virtually non-stop going back,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: It, it, I mean it was a long flight, I was surprised the plane could go that far without refueling but,

Interviewer: So where did you go to in the States?

Veteran: Back to where I started, Fort Lewis

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: And got that, you, that old steak dinner that everybody in Vietnam got, when we got
there, we did some really, they were not very thorough physicals,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: Checked our teeth and a few, if you get, it didn’t amount to a bunch,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

�Veteran: And went back to the barracks and they said take your boots and tie the shoelaces
together, throw them out in the middle of the floor and your fatigues and all that stuff and you
can go home and yeah, I went home in my dress greens,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: And a lot of guys, there were big piles of clothes and stuff there,

(1:20:00)

Veteran: Well I knew I’d be going deer hunting, I had a father-in-law hat loved to deer hunt and I
know, so I went back there, and I found me two pairs of boots that were my size,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: And I put them in my, and I remember the last place we had to check out of was the
Reenlistment Officer, the guy that wants you to sign on for another tour of this,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: And that’s when I told him I said done, y’all taught me how to dance and then you took
me to the dance and I want no more dancing and he kind of laughed and he said I understand

�and, but then it was right then they said do not deviate from your plane leaving this place here
whether you get on the green bus that’s going to the train station or the yellow bus that’s going to
the airport or something,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: There was another color bus too, he says do not get off this bus, the protesters are right
outside the gate, and I thought you know I, I was so ni-, I didn’t even realize that kind of stuff
was going on,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: And I thought what in the hell are they protesting, what I mean we, we didn’t do
anything wrong and, and that’s something else I want to put this on the end of this, one of the
things I'm most proud of, there's a couple of things, my entire squad made it home, some of them
shot up pretty bad but nobody died and the other thing is I do not remember anything we did that
would be called an atrocity,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: We did what soldiers did, and I, I've always kind of felt like this is, helped me with my,
my own personal healing process of Vietnam,

�Interviewer: Mm-hmm, alright, now at this point you've completed your enlistment, so you did,
do you get discharged or do you have to go someplace else for that?

Veteran: I'm done,

Interviewer: Okay, you're out,

Veteran: I left Fort Lewis I was done,

Interviewer: Alright, so now that you're out what did you wind up doing?

(1:22:00)

Veteran: Well you know I had mustering out pay, I had a little bit of money not a lot and from
September to middle part of December this money lasted,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: And my father-in-law and, and his wife they're, they're getting kind of nervous about
aren’t you actually gonna try to find a job, and alright I guess I gotta get a job, well I went down
and I, and I was probably, it’s probably the first piece but I applied for unemployment and they
said well you can get it for a while but not very long, you know okay, and then it didn’t amount

�to much anyway, but I remembered what I told that Enlistment Officer when I signed up that I
had an uncle that worked for the phone company,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: And I thought I might wanna do that, I went down to the local place here in Springfield,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: The phone office and I put in an application and they said can you come back in a, I
think it was on a Friday, come back Monday and we’ll do some testing, and I did and this testing
lasted two weeks and all of a sudden I'm getting paid for this, and I'm thinking now wait you
know I haven’t even been hired and I'm getting a paycheck and, and I remember my clerk at that
time at the phone company she asked if I was a Vietnam Vet and I said yeah I just, just really just
came from Vietnam, and she says well we’re gonna apply you into an on-the-job training
program the government will compensate you some money, and well hey I’ll bite this, go ahead
and apply for it, well that lasted, well I didn’t get anything from that until six months after the
phone company did hire me,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: And at the end of the six months I got this check,

�(1:24:00)

Veteran: It looked like a, a tax refund check and I thought what in the hell is this all about, and
oh I was just grinning at the number, what it was, it was like a hundred and twenty bucks a
month but its six months’ worth of it,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: Now I'm, I'm pretty poor back then, I mean we’re living payday to payday and I've just
got this monster check and I went to work the following, and I asked this clerk about this, she
said oh yeah that’s an on-the-job training, they're gonna supplement your income and every time
we give you a raise that’s gonna to get docked a little bit, and you get this for two years, well
okay the next six months it was a little less,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: Next six months it was a little less and the next six, I think the last one it was fifty or
sixty dollars a month, but it was a very neat deal,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: Didn’t even know I was gonna get it and I got it and it, and that was tax free money,
that’s,

�Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: Huge, it wasn’t, you didn’t have to list that as income, but, but I wound up spending
thirty years with the phone company,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: Kind of liked it,

Interviewer: Now did you always stay in this area, kind of Missouri Arkansas,

Veteran: Missouri,

Interviewer: Yeah,

Veteran: And southern Missouri, mostly I did get over to Boot Hill worked a little while over
there and I got up to Kansas City and worked a little while up there, but always wound up back
in the Springfield area,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

�Veteran: And I was a lineman, a cable splicer, a repairman, and I was an installer, did a lot of
different things,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: And I know now, I don’t know a lot of Vietnam vet don’t like to be around people,
don’t like to be in an office with a lot of people around them and you know, and we just, we just
didn’t like being in a crowd, that was, and me being with the phone company,

(1:26:00)

Veteran: Working by myself about you know, I, I did have to go up knock on a door to say hey
I'm here to fox your phone and what have you,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: Or if I was splicing, I'm, I'm out in the ditch putting the cable together, but that’s by
myself, and I always said that I felt like this helped me adjust a little bit,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm

Veteran: I did, I didn’t get any negative feedbacks is what I'm saying,

�Interviewer: Right, alright I guess now kind of look back at the time you spent in, in the service
and sort of as a whole not just Vietnam, what do you think you took out of it or how did it affect
you positively or negatively?

Veteran: Well I’ll say this for the military, they taught me how to live payday to payday, they
taught me how to budget my money I mean when I was a private, it, its gotta last thirty days,
ain't nobody gonna give you no money, and they taught me how to manage a paycheck, and that
one of the best things that I think, of course I think I grew up faster than I wanted too, it’s you
know I've never been responsible for other people, even when I was in Germany I didn’t feel like
I was responsible for the guys, I was just the direct them with me, but in Vietnam I did feel
responsible for them men, and you can’t help but worry about you know you get a new guy, you
know how is he gonna fit in and is he gonna, is he gonna pull a bonehead and get somebody hurt,
or what have you, and that’s a neat thing to, to experience that makes you nervous at first and
when you, when you get these new people but, I’ll say this, 101st is an outstanding outfit, I think
it’s the most prestigious outfit in all of military, Marines, Navy, whatever, and very proud to
have had serve with them,

Interviewer: Mm-hmm, and you brought all your men back,

Veteran: All, you know when I went home, I still had my, but I found out later,

(1:28:00)

�Veteran: They all, they all made it home, then Lexi, boy they, there's a bunch of them shot up
pretty bad,

Interviewer: Alright well, it’s a good story and I appreciate you taking the time to tell it to me
today,

Veteran: Thank you Jim,

(1:28:16)

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Boring, Frank</text>
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