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                    <text>Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview Notes
Length: 7:35
Daniel John Morley
Veteran
United States Army; 1987 to1993
(0:00) Life before the service
(0:30) West Point Military Academy
• 19 years old
• Picked West Point because of prestige
• Discusses the strict regulations and military training like jumping out of airplanes,
rappelling from helicopters, etc.
• Learned discipline and teamwork
• Never fought in war
(4:24) After serving
• Became a teacher
• Father of three
(5:35) Most memorable moment at West Point
• Near death experience during training at West Point
o Military training accidents are often known as “acceptable losses”
• Jumped out of airplane with the wrong parachute. The one Morley jumped with
was actually a better parachute however it was not one that he had practiced
using. When he looked up at the canopy, Morley saw two huge holes (which was
how this parachute was designed but Morley was not familiar with this design).
Morley grabbed his reserve parachute and was about to release it but paused. At
that moment, the parachute with the two holes in it began working.
• Had he released his reserve parachute, the two parachutes would have gotten
tangled and he would have died.
(6:41) Closing
• Brief discussion about the rigors of freshman year at West Point
• Advice to students

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                  <text>The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.</text>
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Boring, Frank</text>
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                <text>Daniel John Morley served in the United States Army from 1987 to 1993, earning the title of 2nd Lieutenant. In this interview, Morley discusses his four years at West Point Military Academy; the rigors of the program and the intense training that included jumping out of airplanes and helicopters. One of the most memorable moments in his military career was jumping out of an airplane during training with the wrong parachute. Morley never saw combat. After the service, he became a teacher.</text>
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                    <text>Morning Prayer in June
Richard A. Rhem
Christ Community Church
Spring Lake, Michigan
June 22, 2003
Transcription of the written prayer
For these moments, let us quiet our minds,
letting go of concerns that burden us, regrets that cripple us,
fears that paralyze us, whatever is troubling us.
Let us image that which causes gratitude to rise in us
-the gift and grace of life; the sources of our joy;
those persons who make life rich.
Let us call to mind those images which have shaped us:
The Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want.
The Lord is my light and my salvation;
whom shall I fear?
The Lord is the strength of my life;
of whom shall I be afraid?
Come unto me, all you who are weary and heavy laden,
and I will give you rest.
Since God is for us, who can be against us?
Neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor rulers,
nor things present, nor things to come,
nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor
anything else in all creation will be able
to separate us from the love of God
in Christ Jesus our Lord.
All will be well, all will be well.
All manner of things will be well.
Oh, God.
Those words rise from our depths so naturally –
Oh, God...
It seems that, in moments like these
when we purposefully, intentionally turn to you,
when we turn to whomever or whatever you are, we do so almost with a sigh,
- Oh, God –
for we know we are now in the zone of Mystery.
There was something about Jesus when he prayed
© Grand Valley State University

	&#13;  

�Morning Prayer in June

Richard A. Rhem

Page 2	&#13;  

that caused the disciples to plead,
Lord, teach us to pray.
We plead, as well,
Oh, God, teach us to pray.
Once, perhaps, we came as suppliants to the Royal Throne of the universe
with requests we must admit on reflection were very self-centered,
reflecting a very small universe in which our hopes and fears loomed very large.
And still there are moments when we flee into your Presence,
totally occupied with our own concerns –
something that threatens us,
or some experience that crushes us,
or some potential happening that involves us
in a loss we fear would undo us.
Saturate our faith and devotion with worldliness,
that we may love the world –
with sensitivity, with awareness, with openness and candor,
with care borne of insight into the world's agony,
with hope borne of the realization of the world's wonder and potential.
Before the world's chaos, pain and anguish,
give us the wisdom to be silent before we speak;
to identify with and immerse ourselves before we offer remedies
too easy, too facile, too self-serving.
Give us insight and sensitivity
to discern that ominous thunder of the shaking of the foundations,
to recognize the recurrent corruptions of power that we see all around us.
Enable us to see beneath the skin of the world its heaving passion,
its loveliness and its horror;
a world that is a ridiculous mixture of good and evil,
of beautiful tenderness and unspeakable brutality.
A world where flowers bloom on manure heaps,
and deadly cancer grows on a beautiful, young body;
a world under the dominion of death,
natural, yet often so unexpected, so violent, so absurd!
Ah, dear God, this is the real world,
the only world we have
with its dreams of Eden and its portents of Armageddon.
O God, as you love the world, we would love it too.
Teach us how to live in it, how to speak to it, how to love it.
Let us sense the truth of Jesus' word:
That it is in losing our lives that we will find life,
In serving that we will be fulfilled.

© Grand Valley State University

�Morning Prayer in June

Richard A. Rhem

Page 3	&#13;  

Creator Spirit, brood over this community of faith,
this Christ Community.
Keep us steady; keep us strong, keep our spirits open, our hearts tender,
our whole being full of grace.
Sometimes we wonder, sometimes we waver,
sometimes we want to run, to be done with it all.
But, where would that leave us? Where would we run? To whom would we turn?
So, good and gracious God,
gather us in, hold us close, steel our purpose.
Give us joy in the journey and undying trust in your purpose for us.
And sometimes it is sheer joy, ecstasy, exhilaration
that bursts forth in a torrent of praise,
shutting out everything else for the moment.
But, more and more, we look not out there,
but somehow within, into our own depths,
sensing we are connected deep down, rooted in Being itself,
You being the inexhaustible Source and Ground of all that exists the good earth,
the starry heavens,
the ocean's tides
and ourselves, conscious, aware,
groping for some clue by which to know you, to rest in you,
no longer strangers, but at home in the universe, at one with all that is.
Oh, God.
In that address is a deep fundamental trust
in the face of so much in our world that is not well.
We wonder, we imagine an alternative world,
where human frustration, hopelessness and despair
that breed violence and destruction
are recognized
and their causes dealt with.
Spirit of God,
save us from the illusion that a new world order will be born
out of a wealth of resources and sheer military might.
Save us from the pitfall of believing we can simply overpower
and cover our vulnerability
without an honest facing of the world's festering soul.
Before your face, Eternal Spirit,
give us some balance, some perspective
as we wrestle with this complex and dangerous world.

© Grand Valley State University

�Morning Prayer in June

Richard A. Rhem

Oh God,
this is the real world, the only world we have.
We celebrate it; we anguish over it.
Holy Presence, we are present here that vision may be renewed,
hope restored,
and courage found to be agents of reconciliation,
bringing peace, justice and compassion,
walking in the steps of that Exemplar
of what He called the Kingdom of God.
Amen.

© Grand Valley State University

Page 4	&#13;  

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                    <text>Morning Prayer
In Autumn
Richard A. Rhem
Unity Church on the Lakeshore
Douglas, Michigan
October 17, 2010
O God, our help in ages past,
Our hope for years to come,
Our shelter from the stormy blast,
And our eternal home.
When we in awesome wonder,
consider all the worlds your hands have made,
we see the stars, we hear the rolling thunder,
your power throughout the universe displayed,
our souls cannot but sing, O God, how great thou art!
All about us the elegant beauty of the autumn landscape takes our breath away.
Trees resplendent in autumnal garb, lining streets and country roads
in a glorious procession of silent praise,
drawing from the depths of our being wondering love
as we look through them and beyond them to you, Creative Source of all,
in whom we live and move and have our being.
O God, seasons come and go
and in that movement we see a parable of our days.
How quickly pass the days of our lives.
The freshness of spring passes into the mellowness of summer,
which so soon becomes the ripe brilliance of autumn,
which is the beginning of the end.
But the end which does not trigger in our hearts despair,
for we know that winter’s deadly snows are not a shroud bespeaking the end,
but rather a mantle pure and white insulating the earth
pregnant with the seeds of resurrection.
Oh, dear God, if we have but eyes to see, hearts to feel, minds to wonder in awe
when we see skies of blue and clouds of white,
the bright blessed day, the dark sacred night,
we cannot but raise our voice in song, singing,
“What a wonderful world!”
If only we could remain there,
enthralled in that wonderful world of nature, moving us to praise.
© Grand Valley State University

	&#13;  

�Morning Prayer in Autumn

Richard A. Rhem

Page 2	&#13;  

But when we turn from autumn leaves and blossoming mum plants
to get the news of the day,
we find ourselves bombarded
with nastiness, twisted truth, blatant lies as we endure this election season.
The poet of an earlier century could have been speaking of our day when he
wrote,
“Things fall apart; the center cannot hold;…
The best lack all conviction,
while the worst are full of passionate intensity.”
How can such a magnificent vision as we have shared as a nation come to this…
irrational anger, bitter prejudice, bigotry, hate.
As St. Francis prayed, so we pray in times like these,
“Lord, make me an instrument of your peace.
Where there is hatred, let me sow love.”
But that was not all the news this week.
Thirty-three lives were rescued from the bowels of the earth.
We stood in awe of the marvel of human intelligence, skill, and ingenuity
that enabled such a rescue,
and we witnessed the better side of the human community
as the whole world watched and waited, prayed and finally celebrated,
confirming that within us all are better angels
expressed in empathy and compassionate embrace of brothers and sisters
unknown to us, far away, because they are family, part of the human family.
In these moments, in this sacred space, in this warm community of love and care,
we quiet our minds,
let go of concerns that burden us,
regrets that cripple us, fears that paralyze us, whatever is troubling us.
Conscious of your healing presence, O God,
touch us deeply, hold us securely, mantle us with peace.
O God, our help in ages past,
Our hope for years to come,
Our shelter from the stormy blast,
We rest in you, our eternal home.
Amen

© Grand Valley State University

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                    <text>Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
Interviewee Name: Wyatt Morren
Name of War: Vietnam War
Length of Interview: (00:35:16)
(00:25) Background Information




Wyatt was born on April 12, 1947 in New Orleans
He was 18 when he enlisted in the Army in 1965
Wyatt became a sergeant first class and spent 8 years in Europe, 1 year in Panama, and
26 months in Vietnam

(2:35) Training
 Wyatt trained at Fort Knox in Kentucky from May 1965-December 1965
 Boot camp was kind of scary at first, but also very exciting
 They spent much time exercising, working on rifle training, and combat operations
 Wyatt also went through technical training for tank maintenance at Fort Benning,
Georgia
(4:40) Vietnam
 Wyatt had been sent to Germany for a few months before he was sent to Vietnam to work
on a Forward Maintenance Unit
 It was very exciting for him to be in foreign countries that were so different from the US
 Wyatt was in Vietnam from 1966-68 and then he worked in Panama for 1 year
 He was then sent to Vietnam for another 6 months until he had been wounded
 Wyatt was wounded when the Vietcong had broken through their perimeter and an
explosion caused shrapnel to hit him in the face and he dislocated his knee
 He spent time in various hospitals recuperating for 6 months and then spent 6 years as an
instructor in Texas
 After working in Texas Wyatt was sent to Europe for 8 years, until he returned to Texas
and retired
(9:10) Average Days
 The food was tolerable, but terrible when they had to eat c-rations
 They usually had enough supplies and only seldom would their supply train be unable to
keep up with them
 Wyatt was only able to call his family about twice a year, so he often wrote home
 If they ever had free time, they would play cards, listen to the radio, or go swimming

�(14:20) Europe
 Wyatt worked in Europe where he helped stand guard near Czechoslovakia
 He was part of an artillery unit, but they never saw any real combat
 They diligently practiced combat situations that might develop out of the Cold War
 They knew their enemy was watching and they wanted to deter any fighting
(16:10) Panama
 Wyatt worked guarding the Canal Zone, watching for rebel attacks
 They guarded the ports of entry near the Pacific and Atlantic, trying to deter terrorist
attacks
 They only had real problems when there was an election occurring and political riots
would erupt
(17:45) Traveling
 The men could take leave often between transfers and were allowed 30 days off a year
 Wyatt traveled around Europe and found he liked Germany the best
 He visited Bavaria, Munich, and watched the Winter Olympics
 It was a very beautiful country and he enjoyed learning about its history and architecture
(21:55) Retirement
 Wyatt retired when he was 37 years old in September of 1987
 It was a very strange feeling to have to go to work the next day when he had been doing
the same thing every day for 20 years
 Wyatt had been living with his wife, who was also in the military, near Fort Hood, Texas
 They had gotten married in Denmark, had a child in Germany, and another in Texas
 They eventually moved to Michigan and Wyatt got a job working for the United States
Postal Service

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                <text>Wyatt Morren was born on April 12, 1947 in New Orleans.  He enlisted in the Army when he was 19 years old in 1965.  Wyatt went through basic training at Fort Knox, Kentucky and then through technical training at Fort Benning, Georgia.  After training Wyatt worked in Germany for a few months before he was transferred to Vietnam in 1966.  He fought in Vietnam for almost 2 years and was then sent to work on guard duty in Panama.  Wyatt also worked in Europe during the Cold War for 8 years and was an instructor in Texas.</text>
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                    <text>ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW
EDWARD MORRIN

Born: June 21, 1926 Boston, Massachusetts
Interviewed by: James Smither PhD, GVSU Veterans History Project,
Transcribed by: Joan Raymer, July 15, 2012
Interviewer: Mr. Morrin, can you start with some background on yourself, where
and when were you born?
Well, I was born in Boston, East Boston, Massachusetts. I lived in East Boston the early
part of my life.
Interviewer: In what year were you born?
1926, June 21st, 1926, and I was born on 37, Utah St. East Boston, Massachusetts.
Interviewer: Did you grow up there or did you move around?
Yes, I grew up there and I went to school there.
Interviewer: What did your family do for a living?
My father was killed early, so I didn‘t—he was a printer and my grandfather was a
tugboat captain in Boston Harbor, so thought the period that I can remember the most
was during the depression and we moved to 52 West Eagle St., East Boston. 1:01 It was
there I grew up with a bunch of people. That place, let me describe it for you. It was a
road that ran about a half a mile, tenements, and most of us were working poor because
of the depression, but there must have been twenty-five or thirty of us kids, either a little
bit younger or a little bit older than me, who were constantly on the street. And it was a
great time to grow up; I had a lot of friends. I was approximately fourteen and a half
years old when the attack happened on Pearl Harbor. We met every night, the kids, and
we‘d listen to radio and know what‘s going on, and everyone wanted to go. I do not

1

�know of anybody who did not want to go and help. We had a couple of boys, I remember
I can‘t remember their names now, who were 4F‘s, physically, unfit to go, and they cried
like babies, it was terrible. 2:00 Most of them started to join the different organizations,
from the coast guard, Navy, Marine Corps, Army, and they all started to go. When I was
seventeen I tried to join, but they said that I would have to have my parents‘ permission.
However, I didn‘t have any parents; my mother had died a year before. So, I couldn‘t go
and I was afraid to do it because I was afraid if something happened to me, my
grandmother would not get the ten thousand dollars they were paying in those days. So, I
didn‘t, I went down to the draft board with the other guys, and in those days—that‘s why
you asked me if I was drafted, we all went into the draft board and told them, ―Ok, we‘re
ready go and you can take us‖. So, October of—I think it was October, I‘m not sure of
the date exactly, I was taken into the army. 3:01 I went to a local camp there and then I
went to Fort Dix, New Jersey.
Interviewer: Now, did you get basic training at Fort Dix?
No, I went to Camp Wheeler, Georgia. It was the first time I had been in the South and I
was really surprised because I had never seen any of this ―white only‖ and ―back of the
bus‖, and that kind of stuff. But, Camp Wheeler was a tough place and we had a—I
guess when it comes right down to it, our basic training was rough. We were brought in
and within two weeks, they told us, ―If you guys go into combat, somebody‘s not going
to come back‖, so that was always in the back of your head. I remember a Major
standing up and saying, ―The guys who train the best, and know the most, will probably
make it‖, but he said, ―All of you are not‖. So anyway, we trained hard and we went
through the basic training and no trucks, we walked everywhere. 4:00 The biggest thing

2

�that I can remember is that after every days training, which one day it would be the M1
and then the BAR and then the machine guns and mortars, but every evening, just before
retreat, we had a twelve mile speed march. What they did is, you were fully packed and
you march for four miles and then each week they decreased the time, so you went faster
and faster and it was a tough time, but I kind of liked it.
Interviewer: How easy or hard was it for you to adjust to army life?
Oh, I adjusted right away because, let‘s face it, it was the first time in my life that I got
three meals a day, and I really adjusted to it, and I hate to say this, but I kind of enjoyed
being in it, you know.
Interviewer: So, it wasn’t a problem to deal with army discipline and following
orders?
Oh no, no, no, we knew this, and as a matter of fact, when I was going to high school,
one of the Majors that were in the high school, used to say that the essence of a good
soldier is obedience. 5:09

And that always stuck with me.

Interviewer: You did what they told you.
Oh, you know it, and they had sergeants that made sure you did.
Interviewer: How long did the basic training last?
Ok, the basic training was supposed to last about eighteen weeks. However, we all
thought we were going to go to the Far East because the war in Europe, during this time,
was kind of—we were pushing all the way to France and we thought it was going to be
over. But, about three weeks before we finished all of us—they came in and said, ―We‘re
going to cut your basic training by three weeks. ―You‘re going home‖ and they issued all
kinds of winter clothes to us. So, I went back to Fort Dix, believe it or not, and then I got

3

�a one week furlough, or whatever you want to call it, to go home. 6:03 So, I went
home, back to Fort Dix in one week, got all our gear together, got on a train, I‘ll never
forget the train, and we shut the windows down and the shades, and away we went. The
next thing I know we‘re in the port of New York. We get off the train and we‘re lining
us, you know how the army lines up and all this kind of stuff, and I look up and I see the
biggest ship I have ever seen in my life, and there it was the Aquitania. Later I learned
there were three ships that use to go across the Atlantic without any escort, the Queen
Mary, Queen Elizabeth, and the Aquitania. I don‘t know how many people were aboard
that ship, but we were stuffed aboard that ship. We spent most of the time, I did, on deck
because it was—the areas they had for sleeping, it was five tiers high, and inevitably,
someone halfway up would get sick and vomit, and the place stunk. 7:09 It was run by
the British, and we ate two meals a day, one in the morning about nine o‘clock, I‘ll never
forget that, and then we waited all around the decks, and all this stuff, until about four
o‘clock in the afternoon when they fed us something else. The eggs, I‘ll never forget it,
we could pick up those eggs and we could throw them through the bulkhead. We headed
out and the next thing I know, one of the guys says, ―it‘s getting hot, we‘re heading
south‖, so I guess we must have headed south and the artillery people that were aboard
this ship, we tested the guns and all that kind of stuff on this ship, ―What the heck are we
doing going south?‖ Then all of a sudden away we went and headed the other way. 8:01
I forget, don‘t get me wrong, how many days, but it wasn‘t too much, four or five days,
we were on the Isle of Man, in Scotland [presumably that passed the Isle of Man en
route?]. Got off the ship, some of us went down the plank, some of us went over rope
wires and all—it was unfortunate going down that way, you had to wait until the barge

4

�came up and anyway, we made it. We got across and we‘re in the Isle of Man and all of
a sudden we look up and there‘s a bunch of railroad cars and we got up close to the
railroad cars and there‘s an elderly woman, I call her elderly, she could have been maybe
thirty-five, you know, I was only eighteen, and she started handing us all these little
booklets, I‘ll never forget it, ―Welcome to Scotland‖. So I got aboard the train and we‘re
all reading the book about Scotland and I was looking out the window, a beautiful place.
The train kept going and going and going, and finally somebody yells out, ―Throw the
book about Scotland away, here's, England‖, and they handed out these little books again,
―Welcome to England‖. 9:08

We went along and pretty soon, all of a sudden we stop,

―Pull down the shades‖, we pull down the shades. We couldn‘t have waited more than a
half an hour or an hour and up the shades, and go forward. Later on I heard, I don‘t know
if it‘s true or not, but a buzz bomb had come over or some damn thing like that, and then
pretty soon somebody says, ―Throw away England, we‘re heading for France‖, and we
went down to Southampton and we boarded another one of these troop transports. We‘re
heading for France and we‘re going to—we didn‘t get on the beach, we went to the port.
Interviewer: Le Havre?
Yes, we got off there. Again, trains—as this was going on I had met a another fella, his
name was Monhe, my name was Morrin , so every time they would call us it would be in
the M‘s, and we got to be kind of like friends, you know. 10:14 We figured we‘re
sticking together now, you know, and him and I, we got on the train and he looks up and
he says, ―What do you think those holes are from up in--?‖ I looked up and I said, ―Boy,
I don‘t know, they look like bullet holes to me‖, and they were, and apparently the train
had been strafed or something, but away we went. I don‘t know how long it took us, but

5

�we went into Belgium, I guess. I‘m trying to think of the little town, we had a repo depot
there, and we went in to the repo depot and just waited. It couldn‘t have been too long,
two days, and all the units that needed people came to the repo depot. They called
Morrin and Monhe and four or five other guys to get on a truck. 11:04 We got on a
truck and we went to the 94th Division, and we went to the battalion headquarters.
Another guy comes up to me and he says, ―You Morrin?‖, and I said, ―Yeah‖, and he
said, ―Where‘s Monhe?‖ I said, ―Right here‖, and he said, ―Get into this Jeep‖, so we
went into the Jeep, I can remember that, and we rode some more, and more, and more,
and pretty soon he said, ―Ok, right here, get out‖. We met a guy, who I later found out
was named Carpenter, who met us down at the bottom of this hill. He said, ―We‘re going
up this hill, that‘s where your unit is, Company C of the 301st Infantry‖, so we said, ―Ok‖,
and it was cold, oh my God was it cold, so we started climbing up the hill.
Interviewer: Do you know about what date that was? Was it in January or
February?
Late February, and we‘re going up that hill and I can remember—now I‘m going to get
into some real---you know. 12:05 I‘m walking up that hill and I see these bodies,
German soldiers, and I said to myself, ―I don‘t know whether I want to see this or not, but
I got to, I got to‖, so I start looking, and we climb, and climb, and climb, and finally I
look up and there‘s a bunch of civilians and they were picking up German casualties, and
they were as stiff as boards, and they were just piling them up. We got to this little; I
guess you would call it a ranch house, not a ranch house-Interviewer: A farmhouse?

6

�Yeah, a farmhouse like, and down in the cellar of this farmhouse with a little light that
they had, they lit up a candle, but they made it out of something, I don‘t know what, fat
or something. They had a little candle, and I got down in there and they said, ―Ok, you
guys sit over there and we‘ll get to you‖, and the old sarge comes over and he says,
―Welcome, you‘re with the outfit, sit down against the wall‖. 13:09 I said, ―Ok‖, and
I‘m just waiting for something to happen and all of a sudden, that was in the evening like
and I kind of slept against the wall that first night. The next day, I know this, they came
in and called, ―Morrin‖, and I said, ―Yup, here I am‖, and they said, ―You‘re going out
and be on the listening post. I said, ―What‘s that?‖ He said, ―Over the hill, on the other
side, there‘s a listening post, a little telephone over there, and you‘re the eyes and ears
over there. They come up that hill, tanks or anything like that, you let us know‖. ―Ok‖,
and he said, ―There‘s somebody down there now‖. This was my first duty in combat, so
I‘m going out, and I‘ll never forget it, as I was walking out the door I looked over and
there was a German soldier, a young kid, maybe even younger than me, and he was
propped up against a wheel and he had been killed right there, and it was just outside the
house. 14:14 I‘ll never forget it, I looked right at him and I‘ll never forget that, It‘s just
something that stuck with me. So, I said, ―Ok, let‘s go‖, so we go, and one of the guys
said, ―Now, follow the boots‖, and I said, ―What? Follow the boots?‖ What they had
done is they had taken a foot that had been blown off of these guys with the mines, and
put them up and aimed them so you wouldn‘t walk into the mine field. So, I follow those
boots, and there was only about four or five of them there, and got up over the hill, and I
forget who I was with, but he pointed down and said, ―See way down there, see? That‘s
where you‘re going‖, so I went down there and I got to the—it was a foxhole. 15:01 I

7

�got to the guy and he says, ―Morrin?‖ He didn‘t say Morrin, he said, ―buddy‖ or
something like that and he said, ―I‘ve been here for so many hours‖, and he was old, a
crotchety old guy, he must have been twenty-two or twenty-three. So, anyway, I said,
―I‘m here, I‘m your replacement‖, and he said, ―Ok‖. I said, ―What do I do?‖ He said,
―What you do is you keep a—see that bunch of trees down there?‖ I said, ―Yeah‖, and he
said, ―If they‘re going to come, they‘ll probably come through there and counter attack‖,
and I said, ―Then what do I do?‖ He said, ―You get on that phone, and you let them
know back there that they‘re on their way‖, and I said, ―Then what?‖ He said, ―You get
your ass going and you run across that hill‖, and I look up and I said, ―Will I make it?‖
He said, ―I wouldn‘t give you a bet on it‖. But, every once in a while a shell would come
in and ―boom, and I don‘t know why they‘re popping us because they don‘t even get
close. I‘m sitting there and that‘s the first one and I‘m watching down there and
watching and watching and all of a sudden I hear this grrrrrrrr, and I said, ―Oh my God
I‘m right in the middle of this damn thing. 16:12 I‘m looking, looking, looking and
nothing and finally I think, ―Wait a minute, it‘s not coming from that woods, it‘s coming
from up and it‘s one of our planes, one of our artillery observers‖, and that was a relief,
I‘m telling you. Anyway, I got through that and my time was up there and I went back
over the hill. That went on for days and then all of a sudden we got the word, ―the big
one, the big one‖, and this had to be early March because we were there for quite a bit of
time. All of a sudden, ―Pack up and get ready‖, so we pack up and get ready and the
artillery started, and oh my God and whoo, whoo, whoo, whoo, you could hear all this
stuff. 17:07 They put these things in the back of our helmets and they would illuminate,
so you could see it, and that was it, you followed that helmet, if you lost that helmet

8

�you‘re—you know. So, we went down the hill, climbed down the hill and went into a flat
area, and then I started hearing some of these kids that had been hit, and they were
coming back, groaning-Interviewer: Was this in the night?
Yes, it was getting into the night.
Interviewer: So, that’s why you had to follow them?
I had to follow them, right. So, we kept following them there and pretty soon I get the
word, ―A lot of snipers, find a hole and get in it‖, so I got in the hole and you could hear
p‘ting, and this kind of stuff, you know, and finally one of the old—I don‘t know who it
was, one of the sergeants, came by and said, ―We‘re going to go across this plank bridge,
and they‘ve been knocking some guys off that plank bridge, so get across that bridge as
fast and as you can get‖, so we got up and we went across this plank bridge. 18:11 We
got on the other side and I realized later our objective was to go up a hill on the right
hand side and go all the way up the hill and take that portion and open up the whole
thing, so you know, so they can come through. I learned that later, and we‘re going up
the hill and it‘s getting a little bit light now and all of a sudden somebody said, I don‘t
know who it was, said, ―Form a skirmish line‖, so we form a skirmish line, and we kind
of waited there for a while and then somebody yelled, ―Let‘s go‖, and up we went, and
we expected to meet the Germans right there, but they took off. They took off, man,
when they saw us coming; they took off and down the other side of the hill. We went up
to the top of the hill and that was our objective that night. 19:03 Then they said, ―Dig
in, we may get a counter attack‖, but you could not dig in, my God, that ground was like
cement and we could only dig so far.

9

�Interviewer: Were there German foxholes up there?
There were some, yeah, but they weren‘t too deep either. What we found, which was
great, we found blankets and we found, and it was great—we had K rations, are you
familiar with K rations?
Interviewer: Yes
They had the German version of K rations and they had sausage in there and it was just
great. They had blankets that were better than ours, I‘ll never forget that. Those old
brown blankets we had, they had better ones and I took one and wrapped it around me
because it was ungodly cold. So, we were up on top of the hill and all of a sudden one of
the older guys came over and he said, ―Now, I want you to listen to this‖, so I would
listen and artillery would come over, ―Boom, that‘s ours, listen now‖, and then all of a
sudden you would hear ―whew, whew‖, and that was theirs. 20:12

From where we

were, we could look down and we could see that the engineers were building a pontoon
bridge across this river, the Saar River. Anyway, we were there and we just sat there.
We said, ―Hey, this is great, they‘re firing over us both ways and we were up here and
nobody‘s coming into it‖. I forget how long we were there on the side of the hill, but
then came that night and it started. There was nothing but one drive, I won‘t go through
all the details because I can‘t remember them all, but it was one drive after another. One
time they put Monhe and me as points, you know, the out in front man, and we go into
this little town and it was melting like, so we got up on the side of the road and climbed
and went right into this town. 21:12 There was no Germans in there, and we took over
that town, I forget this one, but the next day in comes a bunch of Germans. They didn‘t
know we were there and we had a little firefight and all that stuff. Later on I learned that

10

�the Germans didn‘t think we could get in because that road we were on was mined and
because it was so bogged up and everything else, we climbed on the side just by sheer
luck. But anyway, this went on day after day, and day after day, and tired, holy moly
were we tired. The other big incident I remember—we were going down this valley like
and shells were coming in, boom, boom, and bouncing around and came down on one of
the guys that came over on the ship and he yelled off, ―Hey Morrin, I‘ve been hit‖, and
his whole neck had been-- 22:07 I got so mad, I had never gotten so mad in my life as
that, I could have—that day I could have killed anything. What we did, there were holes
and we get down at the bottom of the hill there was holes up in front, which was occupied
by the other battalion and they had pulled back because they were worn out. We moved
into that area and it was some German places too. Then I heard somebody say, ‗We
aren‘t going to get any artillery‖, but there was two or three German guns up ahead. ―We
aren‘t going to get any artillery‖, you just have to get up out of those holes and go after
them. We waited and waited and then all of a sudden our old sarge said, ―Let‘s go‖, and
we got up and put out a skirmish line. We went after them and I have never seen a bunch
of guys so irate in my life, and those Germans moved out, but we got the gun. 23:01 As
got through it and on the other side, apparently our artillery or our air corps, somebody,
shot them up bad and they were laying all over the place. That went on and on and then
pretty soon, ―Get on trucks‖, and we got on trucks and went a few miles up the road and,
―Get out of the trucks, go through these woods and flush them out‖, and we did a little
bit, and flushed them out and captured prisoners, but we took no snipers, if we thought it
was a sniper—well, what can I say?
Interviewer: But, you were taking some prisoners at that point?

11

�Yeah
Interviewer: Were these mostly young kids?
Yes, and I‘ll go a little further. One kid came up and myself and my buddy were going to
shoot him and I looked at him and he couldn‘t have been fifteen. I said, ―Look at this
young kid‖, and I was only eighteen, and he‘s crying. He was all dressed up as a German
soldier, but he threw his helmet away. 24:12

As typical Americans we hauled his rear

end onto a truck, hauled him in and gave him chocolate to eat. The kid didn‘t have
anything to eat. We took him down the road a little bit and there was a big column of
German prisoners, so we threw him out with that and that‘s the last we seen of him, but
that‘s Americans, we were worried about the kid. Up the road we went again and into the
woods, and up the road again and into the woods, and we just kept this up and pretty soon
somebody said, ‗We‘re going all the way‖, and we got in the damn trucks and we started
moving out. We‘re driving, driving, and all of a sudden, don‘t get me wrong, I really
don‘t know, but somebody said, ―Listen to that plane‖, and zooooom, and later on, one of
the guys we met later on said, ―That was a jet‖. 25:06 I never seen it or anything, but I
heard the thing. Anyway, we got to Ludwigshafen, which was on the Rhine River.
Okay, we get to Ludwigshafen—now I‘m going to go right—and I‘ll give you—the
reason--you‘ll understand later why I‘m going to go into this in detail. We‘re in front of
the I.G. Farben Chemical Plant and we stopped. All of a sudden this Lieutenant, who we
only had for three days, came in, his name was Lieutenant Adams, and he said, ―We‘ve
got to go in and clean this I.G. Farben Chemical Plant out because‖----I can‘t think of the
named of the division, I think it was the 12th Armored Division, had been stopped just
outside of it. 26:00 They came down the road and they started handing us out these gas

12

�masks. Gas masks? They were afraid if the plant itself had some gas in it we wouldn‘t
get exposed and get it out and whatever. We didn‘t want to carry these, I was loaded, my
God, I was assisting Monhe, the BAR man now because we had lost people, and I was
the assistant BAR. Now, the assistant carried extra ammo for him, so anyway, I‘m
loaded with this stuff and I bet the stuff I was carrying weighed more than I did as an
individual. So, we start in, we started moving in, and as we‘re going in I look over and it
was the worst sight I think I have ever seen in my life. Apparently there were five or six
halftracks out there that had been hit--don‘t ask me with what, and it was bloody—all
GI‘s, blown every which way. 27:05 I mean, pants burnt off, they were exposed, I
mean it was—you can‘t believe it—arms gone—I don‘t know what the hell they were hit
with, but we marched past them and all of a sudden the Lieutenant says, ―Ok, here we
go‖, and we go into the plant. My only thought, believe it or not, was, ―I got to keep up,
and I don‘t know if I can do it with all this stuff‖. We‘re going and Monhe‘s up ahead of
me and I‘m saying, ―Ok, I got to stay with him‖, and we went through these different
areas and I heard machine gun fire to our left and machine gun fire to our right, and
machine gun fire up ahead—sniper, and we‘re ducking against the wall. We kept going,
kept going, and it was like this all the way in. 28:02
Interviewer: Was this a factory complex with different buildings?
Yes, it was a big complex, and the whole regiment, I guess, was moving through there.
We were up—too far out ahead and the sergeant told the Lieutenant, ―We‘re moving too
far‖, but anyway, we go through the whole factory and didn‘t run into anybody. All of a
sudden we come to this wall on the other side and I could hear the sarge, ―We‘ve met our
objective, Lieutenant‖, ―Let‘s see what‘s on the other side‖, the Lieutenant said. We go

13

�up over this mound of rubble and it looked like an area where they were parking cars, and
you looked down and it looked like a housing area where people lived, you know. Later
on we figured it was probably people who worked at the plant, that‘s where they lived.
29:00 So, the Lieutenant goes down there and the sergeant goes down there and the next
thing I know they‘re waving for Monhe. I look around and I say, ―Wait a minute, there‘s
only five or six of us here, where‘s the rest of the group?‖ That‘s all that was there, so
we go down and the sarge says to a couple of these guys, ―You go to the bottom floor and
the Lieutenant and I, Morrin, Monhe‖, and I guess two more guys, maybe one, I‘m not
sure, ―up to the second floor‖. So, we get up to the second floor and I‘m against the wall,
Monhe‘s against the same wall, the Lieutenant‘s kind of in the middle, and there‘s
somebody on the other side. We heard voices yelling, ―Germans‖, so Monhe says, I‘m
going to take a look, so he sneaks his head out and looks and all of a sudden, whiz, bang,
boom, he gets hit in the helmet, I guess with a rifle, and his helmet came flying off past
me into the ground and he started sliding down. 30:12 I reach over to grab him and the
top of his head is all blood and I don‘t know if he got it through the skull, across the skull
or where it was, but he was just sinking to the floor. All of a sudden the stuff came into
the window where the Lieutenant was standing—BOOM—I‘ll never forget that, and it
threw me up into the hole, and I don‘t know how long I was in that hole, but I was there,
and then I heard a voice say, ―All right, let‘s move and we‘ll set up a perimeter up
above‖, I guess it was the sarge downstairs. Well, I had to get Monhe out of there, so I
grabbed him, and he was heavy with all stuff. We cut all the stuff away from him and
somebody else helped me, but don‘t ask me who it was. We both grabbed him and we
pulled him way back and we got up on that rubble, and then we set up a little defensive

14

�position. 31:06 My whole thing was, I felt Monhe again and he was just full of blood. I
looked down and I could see where we came out of that doorway and it was my
determination that they weren‘t going to get us. I would fight them to the last right there,
so we set it up and pretty soon we‘re up there for a little while and all of a sudden I get
this tap on my leg. He said, ―Where is he?‖ Its Doc Offa, our medic, now the rest of
them wouldn‘t come up, but he came up. I said, ―This is him‖, and he said, ―How bad?‖
I said, ―I really don‘t know‖, and he said, ―What are you going to do?‖ I said, ―I‘m going
to stay right here and cover you‖, and he said, ―I‘m going to take him back‖, and I said,
―Ok, I‘ll stay here and I‘ll cover you‖, and there was two other guys that did the same
thing. We were ready to take them on if they came after us. 32:02 So anyway, Offa
pulled him out and then all of a sudden the sarge comes up and he said, ―Ok, the rest of
the company‘s caught up with us, they‘re in these cellars‖, across this area which was
wide open, and I said, ―Oh cripe‖. We set up and we started running across there and it
was Bing, Boom, Boom, Bing, and we go into the cellar, I almost fell in the cellar, and I
don‘t know who it was said, ―Ok, you guys get up against the wall and take a rest‖, and
then I heard somebody say, ―Shoot the son of a bitch‖, and I said, ―What the hell‘s going
on here?‖ What had happened was probably the bravest guy that I can remember, a
German medic. 33:00 There was a German soldier just outside the window crying and
screaming for his mother and all this kind of stuff, and of course we always have the guy
that says, ―Shoot the son of a bitch, I don‘t want to hear anymore of him crying‖, and all
this stuff. Pretty soon that medic came walking up and he picked him up, and the guys
were saying, ―Shoot the bastard‖, and then the lone G.I. said, ―No, we don‘t shoot
medics, leave him alone, leave him‖, and they left him alone. They picked that kid up,

15

�how, I don‘t know, but they got him and that medic turned around and walked right up to
the window where we were and said, ―Danke Schon‖ , and somebody inside said
something like, ―You‘re welcome‖, and that guy walked off with him. I said, ―I can‘t—
jeez that guy had a lot of guts‖. So, I‘m laying up against the wall there and I‘m tired, oh
gee we were tired, and pretty soon they came up and they said, ―The Lieutenant is not
dead‖. 34:05 He had crawled out and crawled out to that street. Now, you have to
realize that thing is in a quarter to a half mile behind their lines, that‘s how far out we
were. They said, ―We got to go and get him‖, ―Ok‖, there was me and two other guys
from the same squad and two other guys, so there was five of us. We‘d just gone out and
we snuck our way back and we got up on top of that hill and looked down and there he
was right in the middle of the road. We got down to him and he said, ―Boy, I‘m glad to
see you guys‖, and I said, ―We‘re glad to see you too‖, but anyway, we picked him up
and got him up on that big pile I was talking about and then here we were with the square
wide open. So, ―How are we going to get him over there, he‘s heavy?‖ So, we put his
hands crossed so he could sit up and one guy in the back so he wouldn‘t fall over and I
said, ―All we can do is just run across this damn thing‖. 35:09 We started running
across this damn thing and nobody shot at us. We got all the way to where the troops
were, got him in there, and, of course, that‘s the last I ever seen or heard of him. Later on
I always felt that, that medic, the German medic, had done the same for us as we had
done for him. So, then they pulled us out of the line—we had opened up the thing and
enabled Patton to pee in the Rhine River because that‘s what he always wanted to do.
Interviewer: So, Ludwigshafen, that was on the west side of the Rhine still?

16

�Yeah, still on the west side, but they built, the engineers came in and they built a pontoon
bridge across it, and he went on the pontoon bridge. The big thing was, and I didn‘t
realize until later, he got across the Rhine before Montgomery, the British General.
36:08 You know, they had that big rivalry, and then he pulled us out of the line because
we had been in the line so long, and we had a rest right there. As a matter of fact, we—I
can remember myself sleeping in a bed. I guess it was the German people who had
worked in the plant. Then we were pulled back and I don‘t know how long it was, but
the next thing we got was we got in trucks and we went up to Krefeld. Now, what was
our job up there? Our job was to be on the west side of the Rhine, and two American
divisions, the Airborne and the British, had surrounded the Ruhr and they had about three
hundred and fifty thousand heads, I found out later. 37:04 Our job was like an anvil, in
other words were not going to go forward, we‘re going to hold here. We didn‘t go out
during the days because there was still sniper fire, and stuff like that, but we‘d go out at
night and set up ambush patrols, and that was the job. The only bad part about the whole
damn job was, the medic—there were still a lot of German bodies still laying along the
west side and they said the medic wouldn‘t go up. They told us, at night, go out pick
them up and bring them back this way, a ways. That was not—some of those guys had
been up there a long time and whooo.
Interviewer: And it wasn’t any longer frozen either?
No, oh no, it was kind of—it was cold, but it wasn‘t really freezing. We hauled them
back there, and the medics finally got a hold of them and they stuck them in what‘s his
name? Some barn I can remember, but as you went by that barn, ―Mother of God‖.
38:09 So, that was out duty there, and we kept that up until they had crushed them all up

17

�there, and then came the end of the war and we were like occupation troops now. One of
the things that really got me was that the German farmers, DP‘s, did you ever hear of a
DP, a displaced person? Ok, well they turned all those people loose, you know, and they
start raiding these farms around there, so the German farmers came to us and we used to
go out at night, two of us, I mean if you want to volunteer for it, with the farmer, and go
to his house and protect him against the DP‘s. They use to make good Kartoffles. The
German women would take these potato pancakes, oh my god they were good and we
weren‘t use to eating like that. I use to remember that, we would go out there; I don‘t
know how many times we were out there. 39:03 After that we were just like, Oh yeah-Interviewer: Did you go to other places?
Yeah, around Dusseldorf, and we were like—we just made sure people weren‘t killing
each other and this kind of stuff. Of course, everybody was hungry and we tried to take
care of that and do the best we could. Then they came in to me and said, ―Do you guys
want to go to Copenhagen, Denmark?‖ I said, ―Yeah‖, so I want up to Copenhagen and
had the best week I‘d had in a long time. Nope, I‘m a little bit ahead of schedule.
Anyway then, the word came that they were having trouble in Czechoslovakia, and the
division was assigned to go to Czechoslovakia and we got on trains, and I got dysentery
on the train. I‘ll never forget it, it was terrible—in one way, out the other way, all the
way down. 40:03 So, we ended up in Plzen, Czechoslovakia, then up in the hills, and
then they sent us out and the next people up the line were the Russians. We set up a—we
got to know them, and a matter of fact, they were in a farm house up the road and we
were in a farmhouse there and one night we had a dance together. But anyway, that was
the job and we stayed there until they decided that we‘re going to move out or the

18

�Sudetenland land and the whole division got picked up and were moving out. A bunch of
these German Sudeten Germans were scared to death because of the Russians, so they—
we took a lot of them with us, which was risky; we hid them in the trucks with us, kids,
women and all this kind of stuff, and took them into Germany. We were into Germany
and the word came down, then I could go up to Copenhagen. 41:06 I went up to
Copenhagen, came back and they were breaking up the division. The guys with the
points went somewhere and the guys like me, who didn‘t really have too many points,
they came up to me and said, ―You‘re going to Nuremburg, Military Police‖, so I went
there. I went up to Nuremburg and joined—I got the little card that they gave me.
Around Nuremburg it was mostly the 1st Infantry Division, the 26th Regiment of the 1st.
Some of the guys joined that and some of them ended up with the white hats that you‘ve
seen over the prison as the Nuremburg trials were going on. They put me in the Military
Police and the first job I had was at the Bahnhof Railroad Station just to make sure there
was no riots or stuff like that, and that was my first duty there. 42:03 Then all of a
sudden they came down and said, ―Morrin, you‘re going to 33 Mohnestrasse‖, and I said,
―What‘s that?‖ They said, ―That‘s where they‘re holding the trials‖, the trials were on. I
said, ―what am I going to do there?‘ They said, ―You‘re going to be a Criminal
Investigation Section, Nuremburg Provost Marshal's Office‖, and I said, ―Me?‖ I was
only about nineteen. I didn‘t know what I was doing, so I get down there and meet the
Colonel and the sergeants and all that stuff, and he said, ―I got a first job for you‖, that‘s
how chaotic this place was, and he said, ―This woman‘s come to my office twice, she‘s
crying, she can‘t find her husband, German, and I want you to look into this. He has
apparently been picked up by the M.P‘s and we got find out what‘s going on‖. I go to the

19

�gefutzscaffen [?], that‘s how bad it was—I‘ll tell you, my buddy Schotz, who could speak
German a little bit, he became head man at a women‘s prison in Nuremburg and he was
only my age too. 43:07 But, I got out there and the guy's in the jail and the German
warden was going to keep him right in there, and nobody talked to him or anything. So, I
said, ―What the heck is going on?‖ I can‘t figure this out. They bring the kid out, a guy
actually, and I find out he was going to work one night and it was past the curfew. A
Military Policeman picked him up and shoved him in there. The agent came in, who put
him in the jail, told the warden, ―You don‘t let anybody see him and you don‘t let him out
until I get back‖. He rotates back to the United States, so the guys still in jail. I pull him
out and you had to go through the CIC and then the OSS. You had to get clearance from
both of those. 44:08 I got the clearance, and I get back to the colonel and he said, ―Turn
him loose‖, and so I took the guy down and dropped him off and his wife was ecstatic.
Well that was my first gig and you can see how chaotic it was. Then, of course, a lot of
people don‘t realize there was a lot going on. A lot of people didn‘t want this trial or
anything like this and they would jump—a GI would be off or something like that. You
know how GI‘s are, they get half crocked and stuff like that and people would jump
them, steal from them and all kinds of stuff. My job was to kind of keep that calm and
the other big job was, I didn‘t realize it at the time, was security for Justice Jackson.
Now, we were outer perimeter and they had an inner perimeter and then they had a house
bunch and we were kind of like the outer perimeter to all the roads, and to make sure
nobody was supposed to be in there. 45:11 I didn‘t realize that wild Bill Donovan was
in there, too. Did you ever hear of him?
Interviewer: Yeah

20

�Well, I didn‘t know him, anyway, he was in there too, so we kind of—I seen him later,
and in a while, one day I‘m coming in and the Colonel says to me, ―I want you to get in
the stands, at the trials and here‖, and he hands me a weapon. I said, ―What‘s my job?‖
He said, ―You just listen to what‘s going on and if they break through and they try to get
those guys out, you shoot the bastards‖, and I said, ―I can do that‖. But anyway, they put
extra security out there and more armored vehicles and all that kind of stuff because there
was a threat that they were going to try to break these guys out. So, one of the times I‘m
in there, I‘m standing down where they all came in and who comes walking by me,
Herman Goering, have you heard of him? 46:06 He said, ―Guten Tag‖, and I looked at
him and I said, ―Guten Tag‖, so I talked to Hermann Goering. So, that was basically
what I was doing the whole time I was there and my number was called and I went up to
Bremerhaven and got on board a ship, went to New York, got out, got my papers and
headed for Boston. One thing I remember when I got off, Maverick Square was where I
got off with the street cars to my home town. I looked up and said, ―Mother of god, I
didn‘t realize how small this place was. Do you want me to continue? Well, there‘s four
years of I don‘t know what you would call it. 47:01 Everybody was coming back, the
ones that came back, there was a few who never made it, and we just had four years of
drinking. I joined the Fifty-Two Twenty Club, did you ever hear of that? Fifty two
weeks, twenty dollars a week and it was supposed to rehabilitate, you know. So anyway,
we made a racket out of that, and I played football, I played baseball, I played every sport
known to man I think. We all got together and Friday nights we would go out and drink,
it was a wild great time. It went on and on and then finally we had to find jobs, so we
finally found these jobs, you know, and started going to work and all this stuff, and it was

21

�getting close to 1950. I had a job at the Keystone Manufacturing Company in a foundry
and I‘m looking around there and I‘m looking around at some of these guys—forty years
old and still doing the same stuff, you know. 48:01 Then all of my buddies started
getting married and I looked at that and I said, ―Jeez, I don‘t know if I want to do
anything like that, taking care of somebody and all this kind of stuff‖. They were in these
apartments and they had these jobs that weren‘t really paying much money, I don‘t think.
As a matter of fact, at Keystone Manufacturing Company I was making big money, a
$1.10 an hour. So anyway, the Korean War broke out and I‘m sitting there one day and I
forget what happened, and It just dawned on me, ―I‘m going back in there, to hell with
this stuff‖.
Interviewer: Had you stayed in the reserves in the meantime?
I was in the reserve, oh yeah, but it was the inactive reserves. They didn‘t bother me with
the reserves, so I went in anyway and I said, ―Eh, I‘m going back‖, so I went down and it
was in the Navy Yard where you signed up, so I went down and signed up down there.
49:00 Boy, as soon as they found out I had that experience—guess where? Back to
New Jersey and they took all kinds of tests and all that kind of stuff. The next thing I
know I‘m on a train, and I mean it was a matter of days and I was gone. We took a train,
I‘ll never forget that train ride, it was all the way across Butte, Montana up to—we ended
up in Seattle on pier, I can‘t remember the pier number, ninety something, I remember
that. We got organized there and all this kind of stuff and the next thing I know we‘re in
the Seattle airport and of course, they had the four engines, but they were the propeller
jobs. We got on them and we flew to Anchorage. We got to Anchorage, got off, ate,
played around, refueled and all this kind of stuff. 50:05 The next one was Shima, we‘re

22

�coming down and the pilot said, ―This is going to be rough coming in there‖, and it was
rough landing, boom, boom, boom. As soon as that plane stopped, people came out and
anchored it to the ground. We got out of there and this bus pulls up and it‘s air force, and
the bus had all the windows had been wooded up, so the wind—and I talked to the driver
and he said, ―This is the worst place in the world, you won‘t believe there‘s not a tree on
this island, the wind‘s got to be a hundred miles an hour every day‖. He said, ―Feel it‖,
and boy, huh, huh, of anyplace I‘ve ever been, Shima Island will take the cake. So, we
went into the mess hall and they fed us and they refueled that thing. 51:06

We got

ready to get on the plane, we‘re loading up the plane and the pilot says, ―I think we can
take off. Okay, well we take off and head for Japan, Camp Drake, that‘s where that
infantry outfit was, and we land there and we get off, and it‘s like a repo depot there too.
They handed us, I think it was there, they handed us a weapon, a M1 and only about three
or four rounds of ammunition, you‘re just supposed to zero it in at 300 yards, you know.
I‘m looking around and I‘m saying, ―Hey, wait, what the hell is going on?‖ A lot of
these guys--I don‘t know where they came in from, but they had guitars, they had lei‘s
around their neck, they had these Red Cross girls giving them cookies. 52:00 I‘m
saying, ―Whoa, this ain‘t the 94th Division, what the heck are we doing?‖ We go to
Sasebo, which was a navy base there. We get into Sasebo and then within hours were
aboard, I think it was a LST, I‘m not sure, but anyway, we got aboard that thing, and a lot
of guys got sick just going over. The next thing I know we‘re off the coast of Pusan and
we got off at Pusan.
Interviewer: Do you know, roughly, when you landed there?

23

�Oh boy, that‘s a good question—let me think now. It was in the winter, about November
of 1950.
Interviewer: So, by this time the Inchon landings had taken place and we were
advancing northeast in Korea.
Yeah, we got in there and then we headed for Taegu. 53:01 They hadn‘t gone—the
army hadn‘t moved too much out of Taegu at that time, but the landing had been made
and what was it? The 8th Army hadn‘t broke through yet as I remember, but they finally
did and away we went, up through there, Inchon, and then on to Seoul.
Interviewer: Now, what unit were you assigned to?
The 558 Military Police company, and what there job was, to guard the 8th Army
headquarters, well, that was our job, just guard the 8th Army headquarters, and it got
boring, I mean, it was just guard duty, and then occasionally they would take us out and
put us on MSR-1, which is a route for the supplies and stuff to come through. Our job
was to make sure that they kept right on the supplies because there were a lot of people
left behind when the 8th Army broke through. 54:06 There was a lot of North Koreans
in the hills and this kind of stuff and occasionally they would come down and try to
knock off a truck for food and all this kind of stuff. We‘re out there all by ourselves and
you had your rear end hanging out there, it wasn‘t like being in the infantry, but you‘re
hung out there all by yourself, and sometimes all night long.
Interviewer: At the beginning there, you land; you move north, did you move up to
North Korea with the headquarters?
No, no, we did not move up in the headquarters up there.
Interviewer: How far up did you get?

24

�I guess to the border, to the border, maybe a little further, but not exactly. I know we
didn‘t get up, way up to Pyongyang or anything like that. Because the next thing we
know—well, we had all this guard duty and stuff, which I found annoying after a while,
but then the word came back that the Chinese are into this thing. 55:10 I found out
later, what they did is they broke through between the 8th Army and the 10th Corps, which
had the Marine Corps and the 7th Division over here. They were the ones that went all
the way to the Yalu. The Chinese broke in between them and were going to try to pin the
10th Corps that way and pin the 8th Army this way toward Inchon. So, I don‘t know what
you‘d call it, we start moving back, strategic withdrawal, but that‘s when the big General
came in, Ridgeway, toughest man I‘ve ever seen in my life. He came to the 8th Army
forward and he‘s looking around and I remember the Major I was working for he says,
―Where‘s the mess hall?‖ 56:06 The Major says, ―Right outside where your tent is sir,
it‘s right there‖, and he said, ―Put that thing at least a half a mile out, and I don‘t want to
see anybody not running back and forth‖. My God, I wasn‘t actually in there listening to
him, but the word would come out. He‘d get in there with those Colonels and he said,
―We‘re not moving back anymore, we‘re going to kill those bastards‖, and he set up the--he just turned the whole army around, mother of God, and then he‘s get in a Jeep and
he‘s say, ―You, get in the Jeep with me‖, and away he‘d go. He‘d go down to company
headquarters and he‘s tell these people—one incident there where the, I forgot what he
was, Major, Colonel, what the hell, but he was with them and they all got out and he‘s
talking to this battalion commander and shells start coming in. 57:05 Everybody‘s
jumping and he just stood there—you know, he used to carry two grenades up here on his
chest, plus his weapon—what a man, holy---

25

�Interviewer: Did you drive him around sometimes?
No, I didn‘t drive him, but escort him not in the same Jeep, but the escort.
Interviewer: What was the headquarters situation like before he got there, because
General Walker had been in charge?
Well okay, what had happened is we were moving back, moving back—ok, let‘s put it
this way, 8th Army headquarters was up in Seoul, right? I was told to take two or three of
my men and put them on a post where they could direct the troops coming through, so
they could get down to this pontoon bridge. 58:03 See, we had a pontoon bridge here
and all the Koreans, oh the poor—they were going over the steel bridge that had been hit
and all this kind of stuff and they were just a mob trying to get across there. People were
actually falling off the bridge and all that kind of stuff, so anyway, I had that crew and
I‘m there on the side with Seoul, and I‘m looking around and all of a sudden traffic is
practically stopping going across that bridge. I asked somebody, I don‘t remember who it
was, but I asked somebody and he said, ―This thing is slowing down‖, and I said, ―Wait a
minute, I got a couple of guys still out there‖. I had a Jeep, I had a Jeep and I said, ―I
have to go back into Seoul‖, you know, and Seoul‘s burning and blowing up, and I‘m
getting up there and one of the kids is still there, standing up in the middle of the road.
59:01 I said, ―What are you doing?‖ I can‘t think of his name, and he said, ―I‘m doing
what you told me to do, but‖, and I said, ―What‘s been happening?‖ He said, ―A bunch
of guys came marching through there and they said, ―The next ones up the road are the
Chinese‖. I said, ―Get in the Jeep, let‘s go‖, so he got in the Jeep and I picked up the
other guy, and we went down to the pontoon bridge and I looked at the engineers that
were down there and they said, ―You better get your ass across this thing, because if you

26

�don‘t, you‘re going to be in the Chinese prison‖. So, as I‘m pulling across, I got on the
other side and then they blew the bridge, boom, da‘boom, da‘boom, and then we started
moving south and I had, those guys I had with me, one of them said, ―I was an old
artillery man, I‘m going to stop and see if I can find an artillery outfit and join that‖,
that‘s how chaotic it was. They did and didn‘t, but we get down to, close to Suwon, I
think it was, and all of a sudden that Major said, ―Corporal, get over here, we‘re going to
set up headquarters here‖. 00:07 We went into an area and the engineers came and
threw barbed wire around it, so we were 8th Army forward. There was 8th Army
headquarters and 8th Army rear, but we were forward and all it was, was one little squad
with me leading the damn thing, so anyway, I was there and that‘s where what‘s his name
had been killed, Walker. The next thing I knew we ran into Ridgeway, and whew, he
really straightened that thing out. Then they put a big, I don‘t know what you‘d—I think
it was the 27th Regiment around us and he said, ―We ain‘t moving no further down‖, and
he set that thing up and when those Chinese finally reached the area he blasted them and
stopped them. 1:10 Then we started moving back up, and we moved back into Seoul.
Then, I guess, the Chinese decided they wanted to talk peace or something, and they sent
me and my kids, and a bunch of other ones, further on up. We were just south of—I can‘t
think of-Interviewer: The town where they had the peace talks?
Yeah, yeah, we set that thing up—we went into a grove up there, apple grove, we set up
that thing. Admiral Joy came in from the navy, and who was that? Some big football
player came too. Anyway, we set that thing up and then the other thing that they import,
I guess, they asked for volunteers—oh yeah, they had set up a town across this river, up

27

�the road. 2:08 they were going to set that up as the peace talk area, but the air force
decided that they didn‘t know who it was up there, so they hit it and blew it up, so they
had to pull them back. I don‘t know what convoy it was, but they asked for volunteers
and I said, ―I‘ll drive the damn thing‖, so I got a Jeep, and I had a bunch of reporters with
me. No weapons, a little white flag, I got a picture of it somewhere. Anyway, we got
down to the river‘s edge and there‘s Ridgeway. He said, ―You guys all look presentable
or I‘ll‖, you know, and away we went. We went up and there we ran right into the North
Koreans. They got us into these little tent areas that they had, that‘s before they had all
the stuff that‘s going on now, and they finally turned us around and went back. 3:04 I
actually met them up there, so that‘s how it all started with Admiral Joy and all that stuff.
My job was inside the perimeter, to take care of the people like Admiral Joy and stuff like
that, it was guard duty. At night I would go around with my trusty forty-five so nobody
got in. Around the whole hills was the infantry and stuff like that. I could tell you some
incidents though, I had one guy that could make applejack, and he did, but anyway, that‘s
the way that went on. I stayed there until it was time for me to go home, I think I was
there eighteen months all tolled. I came back and me and my buddy, Chuck, who had
met another friend of mine who had been a close friend of mine, and we got aboard ship
at Inchon.
Interviewer: Before we take you out of the country, tell me a little bit more. What
did sort of Korean landscape, countryside, towns, what did that look like to you?
4:10
Oh, for us, for me, it was all hills, I mean hills, hills, hills, and we tried to stay to the
roads, but the roads were, no pavement, no nothing, and all the trees had been knocked

28

�down from the artillery fire and stuff like that, but basically, it was nothing but a bunch of
hills. Man, would that take you out of it when you would go up into those hills, you
know, to try to—yeah, that‘s about what it amounted to and it was all barren like because
everything had been shot up so bad. Of course, they had the farms around the area and
they used human excrement and all this kind of stuff, so the place stunk and that‘s about
what I remember.
Interviewer: Did you see much of the local population? 5:00
At that time, not with this one, but I did see some of them because we helped a lot of
them out because a lot of them ran to the south. They were coming through, but they
were just poor people with those things on their back and walking south to get behind our
lines and stuff like this. As a matter of fact, the only other time really—yeah, we—about
that time too, as I remember now, we got some Katusas, did you ever hear of Katusas?
We got some of them in the outfit.
Interviewer: Those are Korean soldiers attached to the Americans.
The Americans, yeah, we got those as Military Police and they would help us guarding
gates and all this kind of stuff.
Interviewer: Did you spend any time in Seoul? Did you get to see much of that?
Seoul, yeah, but there was nothing in Seoul in those days, but I saw MacArthur. He came
and made his speech and all this kind of stuff. 6:03 the first time I was in Seoul it was
just burning, I mean, there was nothing in there. Later on, just about when I was coming
back from the peace talks, you could see it was picking up. They had a couple old buses,
they‘re really not buses, they‘re our two and a half ton trucks that they converted into

29

�buses and stuff, and they were beginning to mill around like a regular city. In the
beginning though, all the buildings were a mess.
Interviewer: While you were there did you get to see things like USO shows or
anything like that?
No, I didn‘t see anything like that. No, no, we were up—as a matter of fact, and it often
got to me later on, and I‘d say, ―We never saw company headquarters come up there.
Well, the road leading to where we were wasn‘t exactly something you‘d want to drive
without some kind of an escort. 7:03 I never seen anybody, no Lieutenants, nothing, me
corporal, I couldn‘t believe it. Even when I got back there, you know, as I was leaving, I
got in the headquarters and nothing, you know. I don‘t know what the hell—we were just
the lost children of Eve, I guess, but we made it back there, got to Inchon and took the
ship.
Interviewer: What kind of ship was it you went back on?
It was a ―what‘s her name‖, a converted freighter. What do they call them, Liberty
Ships? Yeah, and chuck and I we spent most of the time on the deck because again, the
same old routine where the guys, somebody gets sick and there were a lot of people on
there. I forget how many days it took us to get to Hawaii, and of course by the time we
got to Hawaii we were in winter clothes. We got off in Hawaii and my buddy, Chuck;
I‘ll give you a little incident with him. 8:05 In WWII they wouldn‘t take him because
he was deaf, but Korean War, psttt, but he spent the time during WWII in Hawaii, so he
knew Hawaii. We landed in Hawaii and a joker or somebody aboard the ship didn‘t want
to let us off, and we were only supposed to be there a day or so, I don‘t know, but some
commander came up and said, ―Let these guys off this ship or they‘ll tear the‖, so they let

30

�us off. They let us off and we went into town and Chuck and I, we just hit the bars and
stuff. We got back on the ship and we‘re prepared to go again and all of a sudden we got
to spend another day there. We found out later that somebody got off the ship, went into
one bar and drank himself to death, and he died there in the men‘s room or something
like that. They had to investigate that, so they kept us there one more day. 9:00 They
turned us loose for one more day and we got back and then, let‘s see, we got back on the
ship and headed for Seattle. There was supposed to be a big time—we were one of the
first ones coming back and there was supposed to be a big parade and this kind of stuff.
Women are going to be waiting for us, you know because we‘d been in—anyway we get
all in and Edward G. Robinson is meeting us, so anyway, we get into Seattle and they
say, ―You guys are going to go parade‖, and as we got off the boat they put these lei‘s on
us and all this kind of stuff and they marched us over to these buses and we got on all of
these buses and we start going in and then we realized the buses are locked and we can‘t
get off the bus. We learned later that they were afraid of us in Seattle, to let us off
because we just run wild in there. 10:03 We get all the buses and we finally get to the
airport and that‘s when Edward G. Robinson came and gave us the old act, ―Hey you
guys‖, and that was fun and all that kind of stuff. We got on a bunch of planes and
headed for home. I got on some damn plane with only two engines and it couldn‘t go
over the Rockies, we had to go through the Rockies, and they turned around and said,
―Here‘s blankets because it‘s going to be cold in this damn thing‖, so we there to, I guess,
Colorado and then to Michigan, actually, and then from Michigan to Boston. I got off
and I got my word and I had been assigned to the Walter Reed Army Medical Center.

31

�Interviewer: At this point were you in as a career soldier or did you have an
enlistment that ended later?
What happened, I was in—no, I wasn‘t really a career soldier at that time. 11:03 I was
on my original assignment which was four years, I think.
Interviewer: You had enlisted for four years.
I got into Walter Reed Army Medical Center, and my buddy chuck got into the Walter
Reed army Medical Center, and we had—I‘m telling ya—all those guys had been
wounded from Korea and stuff were there too, and it was wild. We use to—did you ever
hear of Strykla frame?
Interviewer: No
Okay, it‘s when they would put these guys in these Strykla frames and you flip—they
were so paralyzed you just flip them around from—and it was all steel like. I‘ll tell you
how bad it was, we go into these wards and the guys would say, ―I want a drink, I want a
pttt‖, and we would run them across Georgia Avenue with a Strykla frame and the M.P.‘s
would come running after us yelling, ―You guys can‘t do this‖. At that time, Walter
Reed, and it‘s changed now because I‘ve been back there as a civilian. 12:04 they use
to have run pathways from one ward to another, and these guys with lost legs, or
something, would see how fast they could go down and they actually put an M.P. down
there to keep them from—and let‘s see what else. Yeah, it was just wild, there was
dancing every night and all this kind of stuff and Chuck and I spent that time, and it came
time at the end of the-- and I said—oh that‘s-- yeah, I said, ―I know where we can get a
good job‖. The Alaska pipeline [highway?] was starting and they were looking for truck
driver and stuff like that at three dollars and some cents an hour, whoo, big money, but

32

�Chuck said, ―Na, I think I‘m going to stay in the Army‖, and I said, ―Ah, what the hell,
we‘ll get a big bonus‖, so we joined the Army for six more years and got ninety dollars, I
won‘t forget it. 13:06
Interviewer: How long did you stay at Walter Reed?
Almost two years, and then they said, ―You‘re going back to Korea‖, and me and Chuck
headed for Korea again. He went into the engineers and I stayed with the transportation.
Interviewer: At what point did you get into transportation?
Oh, wait a minute, that‘s way up before. Okay, I was in the Military Police when I first
got to Walter Reed and I decided I didn‘t want any more guarding that gate and all this
kind of stuff. I told the sergeant that was in charge, Sergeant Block, he was a good man
and he was my friend, I said, ―I don‘t want to be in this anymore‖, and he said, ―I can get
you into transportation‖, which he was in, so I said, ―Ok, get me in transportation‖, so I
got transferred into transportation and they sent me down to Fort Belvoir. 14:03 They
gave me two full weeks of training in transportation.
Interviewer: What did that consist of?
Oh, learning to drive all the vehicles that the Army had up to a 113, which is a personal
carrier. We learned all the stuff, how to maintain them, how to check the oil and all this
kind of stuff, how to get in a convoy, how to keep the separation between vehicles and all
that kind of stuff. So anyway, when I got back I was that and I said, ―Boy, I want a job as
a truck driver‖, so they made me an ambulance driver at the Walter Reed Army Medical
Center. We had these big Cadillac ambulances and one of the main jobs was, when
somebody would die in one of the wards you would have to go up and pick them up and
take them over to the digger, we use to call him digger O‘Dell, and that was the autopsy

33

�area. 15:02 We would pick up the body and take it over there and then he‘d show us
around, you know. The only time that really got me was sometimes we‘d have to pick up
a little kid and I didn‘t particularly care for that. Let‘s see, yup, that was the first two
years, it was just well time.
Interviewer: Then they send you to Korea?
Then they got me back into Korea and we were in—south of Seoul and we set up a big
transportation area there, and we supported both Korean and American units around the
area because it was always hard to get parts in those days especially spark plugs and stuff
like that. The units would come in and we‘d maintain them and stuff.
Interviewer: So, what was your actual job or position or what unit were you with?
Oh boy, that‘s a good question now, I can‘t think of the actual unit, I guess—I can‘t think
of the name that I was with. 16:07 The motor pool, but what the actual—we were with
the support unit, I remember the patch I use to wear, but I can‘t—it wasn‘t with a division
or anything else, because it was a support unit.
Interviewer: So, it was assigned at corps or army level or something like that?
Yeah, yeah, so anyway, that‘s what our job was. Basically it was like a regular job.
Everyday you‘d go and try to take care of these guys.
Interviewer: How was life in Korea different the second time?
Ah, you get to know people down there. I got to know—there were a lot of Korean
people who were working for us and I got to know them pretty good. I never got invited
out to their house though, but we‘d have picnics with them and got to know them and
liked them, at least the ones that we were working with. Then they had the secretaries,
you know, that would work in the motor pool its self. 17:03 They were good, they were

34

�learning English, they would ask us all kinds of questions and stuff, so I got to think of it
like it was just a regular part of the outfit. Some of those guys worked really hard for us
though, basically ok. Then we‘d do stuff like this-- there‘d be a drought situation or
something like that, and we would fill us water tanks, you know and take it to them and
we were doing all this kind of stuff. We helped them out and they helped us, and I even
got to eat some Kimchi. Did you ever hear of Kimchi?
Interviewer: Uh huh
Whew, anyway–break in interview—I think I should go back and tell you that I made
sergeant at Walter Reed and that is one of the reasons, Chuck and I both made sergeant at
almost the same time and decided to sign up for another six years. We were now
sergeants in the United States Army. Ok, then we got back there and the incidents I told
you and that‘s about all it amounted to in the time we were there for the second time.
22:35
Interviewer: Did you do things like help out the local community and stuff?
Oh yes, we did a lot of—we did everything that they required and that they wanted us to
help them with. We even helped them grow trees because the whole place had been
bombed silly, you know. Yes, I got to know them, now that I‘m thinking about it, and
got to like them, they were hard working people. 23:01 They worked hard with us and
we took care of—as a support unit, the units we were supposed to take care of the whole
time. So, it was like garrison work, it wasn‘t really that hard.
Interviewer: Now, did you get R&amp;R time or leave time and things like that while
you were there?

35

�Let me think now, did we at that particular time? Oh yeah, that‘s right, I went into Tokyo
and got into Tokyo, and it was really amazed at how they had changed. I had a good time
for, I think it was ten days. Really had a good time in Tokyo, did everything that you
were supposed to do. Went to the—got massaged up and got into tubs so hot that I
couldn‘t get out of again, and drank a lot of beer and just raised heck. We had a good
time, me and the sarge.
Interviewer: At this time were you not married yet? 24:03
No, no, no married at this time, no.
Interviewer: So, when then did you leave Korea?
I left—let‘s see, I‘m trying to think, 1956, I think, the second time and it was spring, I
think. Like I say, we flew out of it this time, and I‘m trying to think—like I said, we‘re
flying over, and somebody said we were running low on fuel, headwinds or something
like that. We landed on this little island and I can always remember because it looked
like the wings were over both sides, and were over water. There was a little navy outfit
out there and they invited us off the plane and they had a little beer hall there and we
went in and drank beer. 25:02 The navy was just great to us, but we had winter clothes
on and it had to be a hundred and ten degrees. We got back on the plane after we
refueled, and we ended up in Midway and refueled there. Then we flew further on in and
let‘s see, it was Seattle again, I think as I remember it. Then across, but this time with a
bigger plane, and ended up with kina like the same route. From there to Colorado, to the
great lakes, and then up to the Boston area, and then a little leave and then I was assigned
to Walter Reed Army Medical Center again. Well, I put in--I said I would like to go
back, you know, but it was different now, and that was about the same time where they

36

�integrated the army. 26:08 I was living in the barracks right there at Walter Reed Army
Medical Center, and let‘s see, a lot of stuff happened at that time. I think Pershing was
still there or he was dead.
Interviewer: Pershing was dead, he died in the forties, I think.
No, I think 1952 or something like that. Anyway, he was there, but that was the elephant
graveyard for all the big shots, but let me see—when I was there Secretary Dulles got
sick and we had to get out and get him, and I could tell you a story about that one. Did
you ever hear of Pearl Mesta? She was the big party giver. Well anyway, we had the
ambulance and I had a little kid, a little corporal, and by the way, I‘m in charge of the
transportation at Walter Reed, sergeant first class now. 27:07 The word came that we
had to pick up Secretary Dulles, and I coached the kid how to get down Sixteenth Street
and all this kind of stuff. He said, ―I know the area there‖, ok, but they sent the doctor
with him, a Major, and the Major‘s in the front seat with the kid, they get to Dulles‘ place
and they pick him up and put him in the back of the ambulance, so on the way back the
Major says, ―Let‘s go through Rock Creek Park‖, and the kid says, ―Well I‘m not sure of
Rock Creek Park, driving through there‖, you have to see it. ―Did you ever see Rock
Creek Park?‖ Well anyway, they start going through Rock Creek Park and pretty soon
we can‘t find the Secretary of State. And they‘re all beginning, all the big shots in Walter
Reed start, ―where the, what the‖, and all that. 28:11 They start—all over the place, and
I forget how long it was, but I guess it must have been twenty to thirty minutes, we had
no contact with the Secretary of State. He comes in, ―Well, got to hold somebody
accountable for that. Who was it that was driving?‖ It was the kid, the little corporal kid
and, ―Ah, we‘ll get him‖, and they were gonna—but the kid said, ―The Major told me to

37

�drive through Rock Creek Park. I didn‘t want to drive through there‖. Err, ―Can‘t
blame‖, he was a doctor and they can‘t blame him. So anyway, this is really true too,
Pearl Mesta use to throw these parties. 29:02 Well, she‘s throwing this party, and at this
party is a girl who was the girlfriend of that corporal who was driving that ambulance.
She started crying because she was afraid they were really going to hang this kid, and she
told Pearl Mesta. Pearl Mesta said, ―What?‖ She calls this reporter from the Washington
Post and they tell him the story, and into the paper comes this column about this kid
being hung for something that this Major had pulled and that was the end of that. So
anyway, Pearl Mesta saved the day for us and that‘s the way thing went on. One night
I‘m in there, I believe this was the tour at the same time, and I was in there as NCOIC of
the Walter Reed up in headquarters. 30:02 Are you familiar with Walter Reed, the old
armory at Walter Reed? They had the steps in front and the big columns and a beautiful
place. I‘m in there and I‘m up in the main receiving area and I‘m walking around and all
of a sudden two guys come in. It looked like they were dressed alike, and they came in
and said, ―Hi sarge‖, and I said, ―Hello‖, and they go sit down over there. A little while
later another guy comes in and he sits over there. I said, ―Holy crap, I think this is the
secret service‖. I can‘t remember the guy‘s name, I think O‘Rourke was his name, and
he was the spokesman for Eisenhower, reporter, I think it was O‘Rourke, an Irish guy,,
and he came running in ―Hey sarge‖, and I recognize him because of the papers and stuff.
31:04 He said, ―You got any coffee around here?‖ I said, ―I can get you some‖, and he
said, ―Get us some and get a lot of it. Have you got a telephone?‖ I said, I got two or
three over here‖, and he said, ―Get what‘s ever is around, we want them all set up‖, and
all this kind of stuff, you know. I called the officer in charge, he was sleeping, and I said,

38

�―I think we got something big going on here‖, and he comes and he said, ―What? What
did you think?‖ I said, ―I got secret service all over the place‖, and he said, ―I‘ll be right
up‖. He comes up and then he starts calling the different, you know, mess sergeants and
all this stuff and had everybody going. Down the hallway comes another group and
behind them is the President of the United States. He comes down and I‘m standing there
at attention, you know, and he comes up and says, ―How‘s everything going, sarge?‖ I
said, ―It‘s going pretty good sir, anything I can do for you?‖ 32:04 I didn‘t know what
to say, you know, and he said, ―Nah, they‘ll take care of this stuff‖, and he shakes my
hand, so that‘s how I met Eisenhower.
Interviewer: Do you know why he was there?
Yes, he had Ileitis, something wrong with his leg. I got a kick out of this because the
commanding officer of Walter Reed Army Medical Center—all they could, at that time,
officers could only get the two stars, that was the tops, and he drove around in a little
Chevy, maybe it was a Buick, that was his staff car. They worked on Eisenhower and I
don‘t know how long after it was--a big Lincoln Continental. He moved up to three stars,
but I think that was the Ileitis attack he had at that time, and well, that‘s how I met him.
Interviewer: How long did you stay then at Walter Reed?
I was there until 1961and I had met my wife Patsy, and we had gotten married. 33:12
Her father had come home from Eniwetok, actually—no not that, he had done that
before. He had come back from Japan, and she had been in Japan with him, but she came
back by herself and she was living with her uncle in Silver Spring, Maryland. I met her
at a beach and one thing led to another and we got married at Walter Reed Army Medical
Center by the chaplain of Walter Reed on September 7th, 1957. We had two kids there

39

�too. It was 1961 when they came and said, ―Morrin, you got all the background, we're
sending you to Berlin‖. That was during the Berlin crisis that was going on then. 34:10
So, they flew me to Germany, then on the Idlewild, not Idlewild, yeah Idlewild, the
airport there.
Interviewer: Idlewild is on Long Island.
Okay then, I‘m wrong—Tempelhof-Interviewer: Tempelhof is a Berlin airport there.
Yeah, Tempelhof, so we landed at Tempelhof and the transportation section was set up
where we took care—we had four helicopters in Berlin, we had the highways leading to
Berlin, and we had the train which went from Helmstedt to Berlin. The way the train was
set up, our engines would take the thing out of Helmstedt and we would go all the way to
the outskirts of Berlin. 35:02 Then they would come out, the Russians, they would
come out and pick it up with a Russian engine to take it into the middle of Berlin, that‘s
how they operated it. The thing I learned later on was that the engines they were using
were ones we gave them during WWII. But anyway, that was--their main job was to
make sure, and the main thing was that they would pull a lot of shenanigans on the route
going, saying that the rail broke down or there was something wrong with this, or the
engine, or something like this. One of my jobs, with a member of the State Department,
was to go out and kind of investigate it to make sure they were telling the truth or
whether they were conning us. That was one of the jobs, and the other job, which I really
enjoyed, was that—oh no, I‘m getting ahead of myself. 36:02 Anyway, the other thing
was that everybody from East Germany was coming through, I mean, they were taking
these subway stations and all this kind of stuff to get into West Berlin. Then from West

40

�Berlin they were trying to fly out by air, trying to get on the train, trying to just drive out,
but they were leaving East Berlin and East Germany. I mean, they were really coming
out and then all of a sudden, the thing was, they decided on the wall. Ok, things were
hectic and we were busy just taking care of things, and then all of a sudden they came
down one night, we didn‘t know it, and started setting up the wall. Well, that really
threw us into a panic and we—we had the 40th Tank Company there, which was a
medium Company, and I don‘t think they had more than twenty-five tanks. They had the
6th Regiment there and they didn‘t have that many guys either. 37:07 Later on I learned
that we had about six thousand people, special forces, some of them too, and we were a
special brigade for Berlin and we had about six thousand, the British had about the same,
and the French had about the same, but surrounding us, somebody had mentioned and I
don‘t know how true it was, but that there were twenty-two Russian divisions around us.
We just kept operating in there, grabbing these people and trying to help them, and all
this kind of stuff. They started putting up the wall, and of course that was the first big
one, that everybody went to the wall and lined up across the—you know. We‘re talking
to them and all of a sudden—and of course the Russians are saying it‘s the East Germans
that are doing this, it‘s not us, and we have all the kids up with there—but we never
issued any ammo. 38:09 We use to have these alerts, about two or three a month and
you would go to your area and my area was down around the motor area and was to set
up all these convoys, so if the Russians let us out we would take all of the dependents and
stuff and send them out. That‘s the way it was set up and then they started setting up the
walls and then Checkpoint Charlie started. Then they turned around and said you had to
go through Checkpoint Charlie to get into East, and we said the Potsdam Agreement,

41

�which was all set up, said we had the right to go anyplace in Berlin, and that was all
signed. Of course, the Russians had the right to come into our area, and what we did, we
started setting up a bunch of cars, and stuff. 39:11 The senior NCO‘s, I was one of
them, and officers, we put on the American flag with our uniforms, and we‘d go through
Checkpoint Charlie and go into East Germany, and that was comical.

We would go in

and East Germany was all glum now, the wall was up and they couldn‘t get out and they
were all scared, I‘m sure. We would go in there and there would be a lot of VoPo‘s. A
VoPo is a-Interviewer: VoPo Police?
Yeah, VoPo Police, they were the ones—the use to—they brought them in because the
regular German police from Berlin were hesitant to use the type of what they had to use
to keep these people back, because they would shoot you. 40:04 anyway, I would go in,
I don‘t know, maybe three or four times a month and I‘d go through the thing and
sometimes during the day, and sometimes during the night. What I would do is when
they would get in there was what I was told, ―Just mingle with them‖, and of course,
somebody‘s looking in a window at a shop or something, and I‘d walk right up an stand
next to them and they‘d look at me and say something and disappear. They don‘t want
the East Germans to think they were a part of the thing. One of the places I use to go was
to a Lutheran Church that they had and was more like a Cathedral where they use to have
German Emperors, and all this stuff, crowned, and all this kind of stuff, and it was right
in the middle of East Germany. Or used to, but it was bombed during the war and they
were using it, at that time when I was there, as an attraction to show people. 41:10 I
used to go there and I met the woman who was running it, and she was a good friend. I

42

�used to bring her candy bars and stuff like that from West because the difference between
the two places, you cannot believe.
Interviewer: How much damage from the war was still visible when you were going
through?
Oh, it was just like WWII. It looked like West Berlin did during WWII. There were still
buildings out and of course, the Russians and East Germans were rebuilding it, but the
junk that they would—they would put up a building and the damn thing would fall down
in six months, I‘m serious. Of course they used to use charcoal for heat and during the
winter that place would just be smothered with coal dust all over the place. You go into
West Germany the thing was turning into—like the West—I mean it was great. 42:09
They had French restaurants, Chinese restaurants and everything over there, and of
course, the people who were working there, Germans, were making extra money because
of there being surrounded. The attitude in West Germany was, ―You‘re making it, spend
it, because we don‘t know when they‘re coming‖, and my God, it was a wild, wild place,
but it was great. One thing that really caught me was the fact that you would go out at
night and you would go into these places and light was like three o‘clock in the morning,
it would turn daylight. So, you‘d be in a bar drinking and having a good time and boop,
its morning, you know. I could never figure that one out, but the winter was just the
opposite, of course. 43:04 That went on and-Interviewer: Did you bring your family out there?
Ok, about four or five months after I was there they said I could bring the family in, so
really what it was, we were hostages, we were, no question about it. We had heard
Kennedy on the air that if anything happened they were going to really start the routine

43

�and then we heard about the 7th Army all along the border getting really, and all this kind
of stuff, so we were really hostages. We figured—we were talking, I don‘t know, that we
could probably last two or three days at the most if we decided to fight, and that‘s with
the British too and all this kind of stuff. We got to know the British pretty good and I got
a kick out of, we went to the big stadium where they had the, what was it, ―36‖ Olympics,
we went to that, and they had the British Monarch‘s birthday there, and I don‘t care who
knows it, only the British can march and have a ceremony like that with horses and all
that stuff, it was great. 44:13 I got to know a couple of British Sergeant Majors and all
this kind of stuff, and then they gave me—I became an eight [E-8] at that place, in Berlin.
Anyway, that was my job, and one of the great jobs I had, which I really enjoyed, after
my wife got there now, because I didn‘t fool around now, it was at the Club 50, that was
the name of the NCO Club, and General Clay was the—he was also the one that was in
Nuremburg too. I never thought I‘d see him again, he was a two star, I think, there but he
was a real big one up here, a four star, I think. 45:01 General Clay, yup, and they
named an alley up from the street for him and all this kind of stuff and of course we were
going—and we‘d have picnics and everything with the German people out there and one
thing I couldn‘t get, they would get popcorn and put sugar on it, eck. We went out in the
street and we were just—steak was only $1.65 a lb., and booze was cheap. Oh, they use
to bring Berliner Kindl, which was the beer, right to your door, and boy, it was great.
That kind of stuff, and oh, the job that I really liked—nobody could get in trouble there
because if you got in trouble in Berlin, you were gone. I mean, you had to act right or
you were gone and they didn‘t care—shhpt, goodbye. 46:00 So, we had a courtesy
patrol, and what that meant was they would use a first sergeant or E-8 or something like

44

�that, and we would get a sedan and we would go to all the different houses of you name
it, bars and all this stuff where the GI‘s would go drink and stuff. Our job was to go in
there, talk to the madam or whoever it was that was in charge and stuff, and make sure
they‘re all acting right and if anybody they thought was going to get in trouble, we‘d
actually grab them, take them and put them in the sedan and take them back to his unit,
and that was the courtesy patrol. I use to get into every place; you can‘t imagine some of
the places that I was in. And of course, you got, ―Oh, American, so bad, not sargie,
sargie, you want a ticket to this‖, and all this kind of stuff, so it was great and I really got
a kick out of that. Ok, that‘s Berlin, now I‘m going to tell you the big one on Berlin.
47:03 I think it was, again, in October of 1963, mark me wrong, but I‘m pretty sure it
was, we had an alert, boom. I went to my local where I was supposed to meet and get
everything set up, the evacuation and stuff like this, and I get there and the Colonel
comes running up and he says, ―Morrin?‖ and I said, ―Yes sir‖, and he said, ―go home
and get in civilian clothes‖, ―Ok Colonel, what am I going to do?‖ He says, ―Just get in
civilian clothes and come back and I‘ll let you know‖, so I go home—well, civilian
clothes over there was a pair of pants, black shoes, and a Hawaiian shirt. Every GI and
his own brother was dressed the same. 48:02 So, I get back and he says, ―We got two
buses here, the Major‖, it was a Major or a captain, I can‘t remember, ―he‘s going to take
one and you‘re going to take the other and inside, you‘ll see it‘s all GIs‖, and that‘s what
they were, all GIs for that, sitting. I said, ―Ok, what‘s your story?‖ He said, ―You‘re
going to go through Check Point Charlie, but these Germans have come up and said that
we had to show a passport, and we‘re not showing passports‖. The Potsdam Agreement
says we can go in there, and we use to take these tourists to the—a lot of them use to like

45

�to go over to the Soviet Union‘s cemetery over there, and they had a big cemetery over
there with statues and all this kind of stuff because they lost nearly a quarter of a million
men there. But, to make a long story short, he said, ―You go over there and the VoPo‘s
will probably stop you‖. 49:05 He said, ―Give them some nudges and make sure
they‘re really going to stop you‖, and I said, ―Do you mean shoot into the‖, and he said,
―Could be‖. But anyway, I said to him, and I don‘t ask many questions, but I said, ―But
aren‘t they the Soviets over there?‖ He said, ―No, no, they‘re saying they don‘t know
anything about this, it‘s all East Berlin or the East Germans‖, so I said, ―Ok, Colonel
away we go‖, so we get down there—oh, by the way, and I could be wrong on this, but I
think I‘m right. It‘s the only time they actually issued ammo to the troops for this alert.
So, I get down there and all the tanks are lined up, all the GIs are up in the buildings and
they have an officer standing right to the edge of our zone. 50:11 They had a Russian,
or was it East German, I‘m not sure, all the way up facing each other, just looking at each
other, and out we go. We go through Checkpoint Charlie and we go up I don‘t know how
many hundreds of yards, but it was quite a way to the—and I could look back and they
were all lined up across there, and low and behold a couple of those VoPo‘s were there.
One of them looks at me and I look at him and he had one of those sub machine guns and
he put his hand up, so I told the driver to stop. He gets out in front of the bus and he
knocks on the door to get it, but I was told, ―You don‘t let anybody in‖. 51:04

I said,

―You ain‘t getting in‖, and if I had to kill him, I was going to have to kill him. So
anyway, he looks at me and I look at him and he knew what I meant, so he went around
and I said to the driver, ―Edge up on him and push him out of our way‖, so he, bump,

46

�bump, we had a big what was it? I can‘t think of the name, but a big bus, nice and all the
GIs are in back and they‘re all—they didn‘t know what the hell was going on.
Interviewer: Now, were you all in civilian clothing or were just you?
I was, I had my—we were supposed to be tourists going to that Russian thing. We all
looked the same, we all had our Hawaiian shirts on, that‘s what I had too, and we start
nudging him a little bit and pretty soon he gets up and he takes the thing and he breaks
the headlight. 52:04 He picks his foot up and we nudge him out of the way and he falls
down. Then all of a sudden—they had a radio contact with the—it‘s amazing, I can‘t
remember if that guy was a Major or Captain, but he comes running down, ―Ok, sarge,
ok, that‘s far enough, we‘ve been told to stop right here‖, okay, so we stop and I look
back and we had to be a few hundred yards from the lines, you know. I‘m saying to
myself, ―Oh shit, if something happens here I‘m going back there with the one kid‖.
Anyway, we‘re staying there and all of a sudden from our line come a couple of Jeeps
full of MPs. They pull up, get out, set up a V and start pushing the VoPo‘s out of the way
and then I hear it, big heavy roars. 53:01 I look up the road, I don‘t know how far up it
was, and down comes the big Russian tanks. I‘ll never forget it; they looked like big
guns, man. They‘re coming down and they get right by the bus and go by and then one
comes up and stops and somebody opened the hatch and a little German kid is sitting in
the thing, a little German, eighteen, nineteen, I don‘t know, whatever, and he looks up
and looks at me and I look at him so, I look like I don‘t know what‘s going on, but there
they were, all ready. So, we‘re waiting, waiting, and finally somebody comes up and
says, ―Go back through Check Point Charlie‖. We take the bus, turn it around and go
back through all the reporters—oh cripe; I don‘t know how many reporters were there all

47

�wanting to know this and we wouldn‘t let them on the bus, we just rode right back to
where we were going. 54:06 Then General Clay called us in a few days later at Club
Fifty, and all the NCO‘s and stuff like that, and he said, ―Now here‘s what happened. We
went to the Russians consulate telling them that they‘re not going to get away with this.
The Potsdam Agreement says this, and they kept saying, ―it‘s not us, we have nothing to
do with it, we don‘t know nothing‖, and it was my idea to set this thing up to get them
into the act, because it‘s what‘s known as salami tactics‖. I said, ―Salami tactics?‖ He
said, ―Yeah, you take a slice and if they made us do that, next month it would be
something else and pretty soon you own the whole salami‖, so that was the idea of it, so it
was pretty exciting. 55:00
Interviewer: So, you were testing the limits and you kind of forced the Soviets?
That‘s right, we forced the Soviets to come out and after that they didn‘t bother us
anymore.
Interviewer: Do you think that was October 1963 as opposed to 1962?
I think it was 1963
Interviewer: Because 1962 was the Cuban missile crisis.
Yeah, yeah, that was the whole—you got to realize now, in between that time, Vice
President Johnson comes in, he drove in over the—it was all pushing to see how far they
could go. Then Kennedy came, oh yeah, that was—in their mind they were saying, ―If
that thing blows, we‘re gone, forget it, there‘s no way you can hold off in Berlin. I
wasn‘t really scared, not scared—I wasn‘t really concerned until something happened on
that thing, but I‘ll tell you something about the Russians you‘ll get a kick out of. 56:00
When I was leaving, I had a vehicle there, I had a car and I had to take it up to

48

�Bremerhaven and I had my little boy with me, he was two or three, and he wanted to
drive up to Bremerhaven with me. So, we pull out and what you had to do, you had to
get a passport type of thing that says you‘re American, and all this kind of stuff, to go
through the highway, because the Russians had a block there. We‘re going, we go up to
the thing, I get out of the car, and they go under the car checking for bombs and all this
kind of crap. I get in this little building that they had and they had Lenin‘s picture and all
the rest of the big shots, you know, on the wall and they played some Russian music and
all, and what they do, they just lift up a slide like and they held out their hand and you
hand them the thing and down it would go and if they felt like it they would keep you
there for hours. 57:00 Well, I go in, and I had little Jimmy with me, and I sat him down
off to one side and up comes the window and I hand them my thing and down comes the
window and it wasn‘t five minutes and up comes the window again. He hands me my ok
and he hands me a lollypop for the kid, and we drove all the way up. I thought that was a
nice little story you might like to hear.
Interviewer: So, what year was that when you were leaving?
I was leaving in 1964, 1964 and Oh, I had another child born there too, Eddie, Eddie was
born in 1964.
Interviewer: Now, you come back to the states and where do you go?
Ok, Topeka, Kansas, onward to Topeka, Kansas, I drive out through here with my old car
from Berlin, and it had just about had it, but we drove to Topeka, Kansas and my job
there was as an advisor to a heavy truck company, which was in Osage City, which was
outside of Topeka. 58:09 Cowboy country man, the guy who, the Captain in charge of
it, was the Captain of the company, he had a cattle ranch out there and he had about four

49

�or five hundred and I learned a lot out there man, because he said, ―I‘m going to buy
some more land‖, and I said, ―Oh yeah?‖ He said, ―Yeah, I‘m going to buy two
sections‖, and I‘m saying to myself, ―Two sections, how many acres is that?‖ Two
sections, that‘s a mile long and a mile this way, and I use to get a kick out of it because I
use to have to drive out and get these guy that wanted to sign up for the reserve and all
this kind of stuff out there. I go out there and all they had out there was beer and wine.
The other thing was, they would put a post-up, ―Seventy five cents and hour and all you
can eat‖, if you want to push these things through the Corn Belt. 59:05 the Corn Belt
was so far they used to issue some of these guys a motel. You cannot believe how big
that place was. So, that was my job and I‘d have to take them once a year up to McCoy,
Wisconsin, and we‘d train them up there and stuff like that. That was my job, being their
advisor. I would go their meeting, they had one a week and one a month, and I would go
them and sit in on them to make sure they were talking on them and make sure they were
there, because a lot of these outfits they would write them down, ―Oh, we had fifty guys‖,
and all this kind of stuff. Oh, we had a tornado too that came right through, and we had
an old ambulance and I drove that through the tornado and helped them out with the
tornado thing, it came right through town, but it was a nice take. :02 We had people
next door who had come out there with the covered wagons, for god's sake, and one of
them knew Wild Bill—the guy that had the big show?
Interviewer: That’s Buffalo Bill
Buffalo Bill, yeah, and he knew Wild Bill Hickok too. I don‘t think he knew him.
Interviewer: He wouldn’t have because Hickok had died relatively young, he got
shot.

50

�Yeah, it was Buffalo Bill
Interviewer: He had the Wild West show.
What he did for Buffalo Bill was, when Buffalo Bill had come into Topeka, he would
ride and get some cattle and stuff like that, so he could use it in his show. But, what was
good about him is that his house had a big deep cellar because of the tornadoes. The
place that I had rented out there didn‘t have that, so we rushed over there and went down
in his cellar because that thing came right over us, whoo, whoo, I‘ll never forget that one.
But anyway, yeah, they got to be good friends of ours, and I was there for two years.
Interviewer: So, you get to 1966 and what do they do with you then? 1:01
Well, I was there, let‘s see 1956, it was 1964.
Interviewer: You came back in 1964.
Yeah, I was back in 1964 and I was there from 1964 to 1966, and then came Vietnam. I
get the word to go to Vietnam and I went back to Washington D.C., set my wife up in a
house in Washington D.C. and took off and they had a strike, an airline strike. The
airlines had a strike, so all the way to the west coast I had to take National Guard planes
and stuff like that all the way over and boy, some of them were rickety. I went to San
Francisco and I got a good deal, I‘ll never forget it, because they had my papers for all
the way to Vietnam. A guy came by and he said, ―Sarge?‖ I said, ―Yeah‖, and he said,
―They got four spaces in that plane over there, all the way to the Philippines‖. 2:34 All
the way to the Philippines, and it was a class A flight with Continental Airlines, and I
said, ―Holy cripe‖, and aboard that they had movies and everything. We got into Hawaii
and everybody was nice, they bought me beer, a buck sixty cents a glass, holy cripe, you
know. Anyway, I got back on the thing and went all the way to the Philippines. 3:03

51

�Got off at the Philippines and then MATS come in, of course you know and old beat up
air force transport, got on that baby and into Saigon. We‘re flying out there and all of a
sudden all the lights come on and we got to take a different route before you land and all
this kind of stuff. We land into Saigon and M.P.s are waiting there where you get out and
dogs with them and all this kind of stuff and then out to the area where they had the tents
and all that kind of stuff and all kinds of crap was going on, this was in 1966. I met an
old sergeant as I was home and this was the second time he was going back there and he
said, ―The army should have left this place alone. Johnson should have left this place
alone. We were here a couple years ago and everybody was having a great time and all
we had was advisors here, you know, and nobody bothered anybody and all that kind of
stuff‖. 4:11 So anyway, to make a long story short, I spent a couple days in the tent and
then they came in and they said to me, ―There‘s a C130 out here that‘s going to take you
up to Qui Nhon‖, so I said, ―Ok, what should I take?‖ He said, ―Take everything, that‘s
where you‘re going‖, so I got on, and I think there were only about two or three other
guys on there, but they were dropped off before Qui Nhon and we were flying on. I get
on there and the damn thing is smoking and everything else and I‘ll never forget, I said to
the sarge, ―This thing is smoking‖, and he said, ―Not again?‖ So, all of a sudden we get
over this area and it‘s wide open and we just land, bump, bump, bump, and he says, ―Ok
sarge, get out‖, and there‘s nobody there, just a little shack way up the road, nothing.
5:08 I‘m sitting there, I don‘t know how long I sat there and pretty soon a Jeep comes
up, a kids in the Jeep and he says, ―Come on sarge, are you the new first sergeant?‖ I
said, ―Yeah‖, and he said, ―I‘ll take you out to the company‖, and I said, ―Where are we‖,
and he said, ―Well, we‘re in Valley A‖, so we go through Qui Nhon and up this old dirt

52

�road and up this road, up, up, up and there‘s Valley A and the company is set up on the
side of a hill.
Interviewer: What kind of country was around there?
Hilly, not too much, but some and in fact, there was a lot of foliage though and it was
kind of nice, a really nice looking place, I was surprised. I got a picture of this place
where we were if it makes any difference. 6:06 But anyway, we got all the tents set up,
and it was all tent work, and I get in there and take over the company.
Interviewer: What was the company?
The 556th Transportation Company, I‘m pretty sure that‘s the number, and we were with
the 5th battalion of transportation. They had the big heavy duty trucks on another
compound just to the left of us and beyond that was an engineering outfit and to the right
of us was a hospital. We were up in this big hill and the hill went like this and we were
all barbwire‘d in and we had bunkers down the front end and a bunker here. 7:01 Our
job was to get stuff out of Qui Nhon, the harbor, and take it up to An Khe, which had at
that time, I believe, it was the 1st Airmobile outfit up there, and beyond that to Pleiku,
which had helicopters and stuff like that, and beyond that was Special Forces at Dak To.
Our job was to take whatever they had off them beaches and get it up to them.
Interviewer: So you were taking convoys of trucks?
Yes, convoys
Interviewer: Wasn’t that kind of dangerous?
Oh yeah, it wasn‘t exactly exciting, I mean yeah, this was a lot worse than Korea, when I
was in Korea. Stuff like what‘s happening in Afghanistan and stuff like that and of
course, they didn‘t have the means that they have in Afghanistan, so we didn‘t run into

53

�that many mines, but we ran into our mines and the ones they had made and blow up a
few trucks here and there every once in a while. 8:03 Some of those kids, every day,
stuck their rear end out to get that stuff through and when you went past Pleiku, you were
in a wild, wild horse race up there, that was—the Montagnards were up there and we met
them and we used to try to help them out too, of course. What we did, we had a G5, they
called it, and we would take stuff up to their little camps and stuff. Most of the stuff they
would sell anyway, because you go up there and they had all these huts and they were up
on poles and stuff like that, and we‘d go up with big pieces of steel and, ―Oh, look at this,
you put that on top of your roof ―, and my god it would get so damn hot it would kill you,
so they use to take that stuff and sell it, you know. I got to meet a couple of Montagnard
chiefs, you call it, and they would sit up down when we‘d go into their areas like that.
9:06 Of course they wore loin cloths and stuff and had bow and arrows and stuff like
that. I know me and one other sergeant, we went up there one time and they invited us
out for a meal and the rice wasn‘t bad and the meat wasn‘t too bad until I looked over and
seen that they had a dog on the spit. Then he used to point out, I‘ll never forget it, his
little water creek that was in the middle of this thing and he had some little fish in there,
the chief. They use to let us know if there‘s—don‘t go this way, go that way. That‘s
where we got hit with the Agent Orange. As you come out of Bong Son you went
through a jungle area and it was real slow going up these hills. 10:02 I mean you were
in grandma all the way up, of course that‘s where you run into some sniper fire and stuff
like that and if they were really going to set up—the French called it ―The Street Without
Joy‖.
Interviewer: “The Street Without Joy” was along the coastal highway.

54

�But no, coastal until it starts going up into the hills
Interviewer: The same highway?
Yeah, highway 9, and that was the one where the French really got blobbed, just outside
of An Khe is where they really got clobbered, and they called it ―The Street Without
Joy‖, or something like that. I‘ve got a picture of that too.
Interviewer: There was a book by that name and part of that book covered the
mobile columns the French had getting ambushed up there in the hills and getting
pretty much destroyed.
In An Khe, so the division had a big place up there they had set up, and then beyond that
is Pleiku and now you‘re really up in the highlands because you‘re in the flat country up
there. 11:04 Where the French use to have coffee and stuff they grew out in up there,
and some of the women, you look out, and they don‘t look like Vietnamese, they‘re half
and half.
Interviewer: Right
Then Dak To, now when you get into Dak To you‘re dealing with the Special Forces.
They use to love to see us because the myth is that everything was taken up to them by
helicopters, but my kids their job getting them shells and all the goodies, they got a lot of
that stuff up there.
Interviewer: Were there times when the roads were basically closed and you
couldn’t get through?
Yeah, well the convoys, we‘d get as far as that jungle area I was talking about, and at that
time, when we first got there, you couldn‘t see five yards beyond, some of that foliage
would come in the truck, driving it, and yeah, then they‘d close it off. 12:09

55

And you

�would have to get an escort, I mean 113 helicopters {M-113 personnel carriers and/or
helicopters?], so you would be escorted all the way up there, because on the side of the
hill they had snipers shooting down and stuff like that. Then they—I forget how long I
was there when one of the kids came up and said, ―Hey sarge, you gotta see‖, and I can‘t
think of the name of that jungle area, and he said, ―You gotta see this, what‘s happened
there:, and I said, ―What do you mean‖, and he said, ―Oh, they came down and sprayed it
with something‖, and I said, ―Oh? ―I‘ll take a convoy in for you‖. I had to take the
convoy every once in a while just to keep my foot in it because you can‘t tell those kids
to do that and not go up yourself, you know. So anyway, to make a long story short, I
took one into that area and holy moly, I couldn‘t believe it, everything was gray. 13:06
Everything was off the trees, everything was off the bushes, you had a firing lane about a
hundred or two hundred yards on both sides. And, of course, everything was covered
with this junk, or whatever you want to call it. By the time we got to Pleiku you were
covered with it, Agent Orange, and we didn‘t know what it was at the time. So anyway,
to make a long story short, that was the job and the thing I didn‘t particularly care for
about the job, was the fact that I was the one—the Lieutenant, the poor Lieutenant, he
used to be the convoy commander just about every day. We got a Captain in there, but he
didn‘t last very long. He got killed going up by a sniper. We use to run that poor
Lieutenant to death and running the company in that Qui Nhon area there. 14:04 And
oh, and then we got another company in and they wanted to use our area and the Colonel
came in and said, ―They have to use this area and you have to move the whole company‖,
which I did, up to Pleiku. Holy moley, what a job that was, and I got a kick out of—right
outside of our place was a guy who would help you with tires, and by the time I got up

56

�to—it‘s supposed to be all secret now, all secret, he was already set up there. He knew
more about it than what we did. Anyway, we were in Pleiku, I forget—we come out of
there—of course, we had to dig holes up there because we could be hit anytime up there,
and let me think—Pleiku—Pleiku was quite a place. We did our job out of Pleiku,
helping the helicopters with their material and stuff like that, and the ammo dumps, and
taking a lot of stuff up to Dak To. 15:05 there was another place beyond that, but we—
this is—I use to go up there for—because I—A guy from Walter Reed Army Medical
Center was up there as a medic. I knew him at Walter Reed and I went up there. I use to
go see him and he had a little Green Beret and all that stuff, and he would say, ―Hey, put
this on sarge‖, you know, and this kind of crap. I use to go up there just to keep my foot
in because you just can‘t do—you can‘t ask kids to do something you won‘t do.
Interviewer: You can’t just lead from the desk.
No, no
Interviewer: What kind of casualties did you take?
Not too bad, most of our casualties were from traffic. These kids would go up there with
these—I forget how many gallons of fuel, and it‘s over a hundred miles or something like
that, and they would empty that fuel and they would be coming down those
mountainsides and all of a sudden they would fall asleep. 16:05 Whittt, I think we lost-killed, it was only two, but going off the side of those roads, at least a half a dozen, and of
course, I got a kick out it, and I‘ll tell you how bad it was. You had an accident, or my
outfit had an accident, the General would call me, nothing in between. You would
expect—he was something else, he would say, ―Hey sarge, what are you doing out
there?‖ And all this kind of stuff, and I would say, ―Here‘s what we‘re doing sir‖, ―Ok,

57

�make sure you keep doing that and cut down those god damn accidents, I don‘t care what
you have to do‖, but never tell me why he didn‘t go through the Colonel or anybody else.
Interviewer: What kind of guys did you have working for you?
Great, great, when I first went there it was all volunteers, just about everybody. 17:01
And those kids, and believe me when I say this, I was beyond belief when I met them.
They were willing, they were able, and they went. All you would have to do is say,
―We‘re going to‖—every day we set—I‘ll be perfectly honest with you—ninety-eight
percent of our trucks, out of the fifty-eight trucks, went out every day, and we loaded
them. Our biggest thing was to maintain them and get them going, and have those kids
go up those roads and they went up there. Only in a few cases, and we put sandbags
under their seats and all this kind of stuff, because every once in a while a truck would
get hit, and a truck would go up with the sandbags and what they were using at the time
didn‘t kill the whole crew, just ruined the truck. The trouble I had, well, not really
trouble, some kid would come back after he‘s been hit like that and he‘s all shaken.
18:04 I let him rest for a day or two and then I‘d say, ―Come on‖, and I‘d take him up in
a truck, next to him, so they can, you know, and they got over it, most of them. I don‘t
know what they did when they got back, but the biggest thing—no, great kids, great,
great, great guys, well, they weren‘t really kids, they were guys. I had a colored sergeant
who was—who ran the operation and he was fantastic, a great guy. I had the best cook in
the United States Army, and what we did, which was not kosher, I had a beer tent and we
weren‘t supposed to have beer tents, you know. I use to sell beer for approximately ten
cents a can. Where do we get the beer? 19:01 We would go down to the wharf, and
what they would do, they bring a lot of this stuff in and there were no warehouses down

58

�in Qui Nhon, and they put it right up on the beach, and this stuff would be left out on the
beach and boy, when it rained there man, monsoons, it would completely ruin the setup
and all the beer cans would fall. We‘d go down there, and I‘ll never forget the sergeant,
he said, ―You gotta clean up this damn place. I‘ll sell you the beer, fifty cents a front end
loader‖. We go down, a big front end loader, and we‘d take all this beer, put it in the
trucks, take it out, put it in the little tent I had for beer, sell it to the kids, get the money,
and give it to Cooper. Cooper was the name of our mess sergeant, Cooper, give it to him.
20:06 He‘d go out on the local economy and you could not believe what this guy could
do. He would get stuff, stuff to eat and stuff, but what he did, he‘d built this big mess
hall, I got a picture of that thing, and it‘s unbelievable. Rock--and he‘d get the local guys
that knew all about rock and stuff, and then we had people from around the area,
engineers and other guys from other areas, and they would come in, and especially who
use to come in was the guys from the—Koreans. What was it—the 1st Light Horse
Division, they would come in and all eat with us. Man, he use to set up—he was the
greatest cook I‘ve ever seen in my life. 21:00 We ate, and colonels came in and said,
―We gotta eat over here‖, and all this kind of stuff. Then another thing, I had another kid
there that was just a great kid and he said—you know you had to have—where you
crapped, you know and he built us a beautiful, I think it was an eight holer. It was all
covered and everything else, it was great. I‘ll tell you a Lieutenant story, okay? We had
this lieutenant come in who was supposed to take over, and he came in with a, ―I‘m a
Lieutenant and this is what we‘re going to do‖, and all this stuff. The old Captain who
we‘re running up and down all the time, he was so damn tired, he came in there and we
said, ―Hey captain, we got a Lieutenant in here and he is gung ho and I think he‘s from

59

�West Point, I don‘t know‖. The Captain said, ―I‘ll handle him‖. 22:02 I said, ―Do you
want me to kind of take care of this?‖ He said, ―How are you going to do it?‖ So, I said,
―What I‘ll do‖, I use to write all the orders up, ―You‘re supply, you‘re in charge of
supply, voting, you‘re in charge‖, and we all give this to the Lieutenant and he‘d sign for
everything, you know, he owned everything. I said, ―I‘ll make him fecal control officer‖.
He said, ―What? There‘s no such thing‖, and I said, ―I know it and you know it, but we‘ll
make him fecal control officer‖. He said, ―Come on‖, and I said, ―Do you want me to
take care of him?‖ He said, ―Ok, go ahead‖, so I wrote all these orders up and handed
them to the Lieutenant and he‘s going around and he said, ―Where‘s all the ammo and
stuff?‖ I said, ―Over here‖, and pointing around, and he said, ―Wait a minute, what‘s this
fecal control officer?‖ I said, ―Oh, that‘s local‖ and he said, ―What do you mean?‖
23:06 I said, ―The battalion set this up‖, and he said, ―What is it?‖ I said, ―You know
we feed the men so much food every day, we know how much they feed, but we want to
know if they‘re all feeling ok‖, and he said, ―How do we do that?‖ the set up was, out of
that eight thing we had fifty-five gallon drums cut in half and we‘d put them under the
different places, and then we had a Vietnamese guy who would pull them out if they‘re
getting kind of full and he‘d stack them up and as he‘s stack them up we had a
combination of diesel fuel and he‘s burn all that stuff and then put them back.
The Lieutenant said, ―Well, what‘s my job?‖ I said, ―Well, here‘s this measuring stick,
find out how much is in each one‖. 24:08 He said, ―You‘re kidding‖, and I said, ―No,
no, this is battalion headquarters if you want to check with them‖, and he said, ―No, no,
no, why can‘t an enlisted man do this?‖ He was that type, and I said, ―No, they want an
officer to make sure that they‘re getting the right measurement‖. I don‘t know how many

60

�days he did it and he finally came one day and he said, ―You son of a bitch‖, and I said,
―What‘s the matter?‖ He started laughing and he was never the same guy again, he was
perfect and he started taking convoys. But, that‘s my story and he was the fecal control
officer.
Interviewer: Now, when you were stationed in these different places, did the camps
you were bases at get hit by rockets or mortars periodically?
Oh, well, yeah, actually Pleiku, you don‘t know there. 25:01 We set up bunkers and all
that kind of stuff. We didn‘t—the only big hit we got, and you won‘t believe this, the
Korean Army was there, you know, the Koreans, and they start shooting artillery over,
and they would explode up over my damn tents and stuff and all the crap came down and
we were ducking all over the place, but in Qui Nhon we were pretty well set up and we‘d
have an alert or something like that, but we had bunkers and I made bunkers for what you
were saying, and of course, if one of those things ever hit you direct, forget it anyway.
But, these bunkers were—if they landed a little way off or something like that, but no, we
never got hit out there, but Pleiku and Dak To now, you‘re dealing with boom, boom,
boom, all kinds of crap. So anyway, that‘s the way--the kids going up, the big thing was
either sniper, it depended where you were going, or something in the road. 26:07 I‘ll
tell you a story about the Koreans. One of our trucks went up there and got hit, and that
Captain came down and he wanted to know what happened and of course, I told him and
he said, ―I‘ll take care of that‖, and he went back up there and I watched and he had all
the guys with the, like they did in the old days with the bayonets, going up the road like
that to find out if there were any mines up there. Then he said, ―I‘ll get the son of
bitches‖, and I said, ―What are you going to do?‖ He said, ―Tomorrow night I‘m going to

61

�pull everybody off, there won‘t be anybody around this whole road and then we‘re going
to sneak around to the side and nobody with weapons, nobody with a carbine or a
weapon—knives‖, and he set this thing up and of course, these guys that were doing this
were only fifteen, sixteen, eighteen years old at the most. 27:06 They would sneak
down and do this kind of stuff. He‘s let them sneak through and then he‘s surround them,
and then they went out with knives and killed every one of them. Man, those Vietnamese
didn‘t want any part of them guys. That‘s just a little story I thought I‘d let you hear.
Interviewer: When you got up to Pleiku or Dak To, did you ever get ground attack
or sapper attacks or anything?
No, no, no ground attacks, Dak To did, but I wasn‘t there. Then they had a couple of
artillery bases that got hit up there. They were mostly worried about, like you called
them, terrorists and stuff like that. But the Montagnards use to take care of it, anybody
not—that didn‘t belong there. 28:01

Actually, the biggest part was going up those

roads.
Interviewer: Now, did you do like one twelve month tour up there?
It was a thirteen month tour, and then I came back, what was it? In, this was 1967, and
they shipped me out to Grand Rapids and I had the reserve center at Grand Rapids and
then of course, I had the worst job I ever had in the army. The reserve wasn‘t bad, I got it
kind of in my mind as I was looking around, and all the wheels had their kids in the
reserves because they weren‘t calling them up. Lawyers' sons, and all the wheels, you
know. Then of course, the word came down of the casualties. We‘d get it out of
Madison, Wisconsin and they would call me and they‘d say, ―Here‘s what happened at so
and so, go out to the house and explain it to whoever‘s there, and then come back and

62

�report to us what happened and all this kind of stuff. 29:08 Then they would send the
telegram, but you‘d get there before the telegram. So, I did it I don‘t know how many
times, I never did count, but I did it one time on Mother‘s Day and of course, when you
drove up they knew immediately. The Mother‘s Day one, she just looked at me and she
said, ―You don‘t have to tell me, I know‖, and her son who was with her at the time that I
pulled up, was in the National Guard, locally and she took it real hard. Then of course,
the idea was for me to offer whatever help I could get, and let them know when their son
is coming in and all this kind of stuff, but I would get to some houses where they would
all break down and one or two of them pounded on my chest and said, ―why couldn‘t it
have been you?‖ And all this kind of stuff, and of course, everybody‘s screaming about
Johnson, who was the President, and all this kind of stuff. 30:09 Ran into all kinds of
stuff like that and that was a brutal army. You don‘t know what you‘re going to face
when you go in there. I went all the way up to Traverse City and back. Most of these
kids were the ones that got killed, were mostly lower echelon, you know what I mean,
they weren‘t the—one Lieutenant, and he had a nice beautiful house, but the rest of them
you could tell were working people, you know. The one I really got a kick out of—well,
not a kick out of, but threw me off in a way. I pulled up to this house, it was like a little
farm house and I look around and there‘s a big Mercedes over here, a Cadillac over there,
and it‘s a little farmhouse. 31:04 I knock on the door and she says, ―Come on in, I
know what you want‖, and I came in and she‘s in, I don‘t know what you call those
outfits they wear in Hawaii, that long thing. She was a kind of heavy set woman and she
had books everywhere, and she said, ―I told him not to go. I took him to the Democratic
National Convention‖, and she was showing me books he had and stuff. I said what

63

�happened, that he had been killed and all this stuff, and I said, ―He will be on the west
coast in a day or two and we‘ll ship him in‖, and she said, ―I‘m going on vacation, have
him cremated on the west coast‖, and I‘m kind of solemn. Then there would be cases
where they are all upset and pounding on, and all this kind of stuff. ―I got to tell my
husband, he‘s not here, we‘re divorced‖, and comes Monday morning and they are
fighting over who‘s going to get the damn insurance money, so that went on. 32:14
Interviewer: How long did you do that job?
For that almost two years I was here in Grand Rapids. A lot of them and it just got to me.
I was kind of fed up with the whole thing, you know.
Interviewer: What was your impression of the war itself by then?
Well of course, I was a professional, I mean I figured if they told me, this is where you‘re
going to go and this is what you‘re going to do. The political consequences of the war
never bothered me. I said, ―We‘re going to do our job‖. The thing that I use to—well, I
was used to being in an army that went forward, so we would go up and engage with our
troops as support and all this kind of stuff, and take some place and then the next thing is
we‘re turning back to where we came before. 33:09

They used to say, ―Hay sarge,

when are we going up to Pleiku? When are we going all the way up?‖ I‘d say, ―Boy I
don‘t know‖, and then we‘re getting all this stuff with the bombing runs and all this stuff,
so that was really frustrating trying to hold the morale up because they understand that
what they were putting out and then have to come back to the same place again. So, that
really got me and then when I got back here and I saw what was happening in the reserve
center right here in Grand Rapids, and then what I was doing with the kids out in the—it
really began to shake me and I was beginning to say, ―This is not the army I used to

64

�know‖. 34:01 You know, the one where you went in and did the job and went all the
way and victory. Then I was here two years doing that kind of stuff and then going back
to Korea. I went back to Korea, and of course, everything was changed in Korea. They
were modernizing everything, my God. It was different, we were—there was Arbor Day,
they had an Arbor Day and we were helping them plant trees, they had an Arbor Day just
like we do. We‘d go to the village and say we need this and this and we‘d get it and take
it to them and they would plant trees. They were getting—getting into Seoul, I couldn‘t
believe it and then I couldn‘t believe Seoul, and then of course, the roads were all paved.
They had us on Wolmido Island, yeah, and then what really got me were Johnson and his
buddy who was running the war, decided they were going to take a bunch of kids who
were below seventy IQ. 35:15 We began to get some of them and that was horrendous.
These kids were crying or they‘d be on dope and all this kind of stuff. We were supposed
to send them to school in the afternoon and the Army‘s not set up for that kind of stuff. I
looked at this and I began to whoo, and coming back from Korea the second time, I
called the Pentagon and told them, ―I‘m retiring‖, and they said, ―Ok‖.
Interviewer: Now, had they wanted you to go back to Vietnam at that point?
Yes, oh yes—well I had called and I said, ―How long am I going to be at home?‖ ―The
most we can give you is nine months‖, so I said, ―Oh shit, then what will we do?‖ 36:09
Well, the point was we were evacuating and I said, ―That‘s not my Army. My army‘s not
evacuating, I‘m not going to go over there and give up, that‘s just‖, but after that Nixon,
of all people, got the all-volunteer army and now we got the best bunch of kids—I‘ve
been down to Fort Bragg here a year or two ago, which my daughter was part of, what a

65

�bunch of kids we got now, they‘re fantastic. The best army we‘ve ever had, the best
navy, the best everything we‘ve got right now, and I‘d join it in a minute.
Interviewer: What did you wind up doing after you retired out of the military?
Well, I got here in Grand Rapids and I—did you ever hear of Thornapple Valley Meats?
Well anyway, they made hotdogs and stuff. 37:00
Interviewer: Yeah, yeah
They wanted to set up security for the plants, so I set up the security for them and I had a
bunch of guards and all this kind of stuff. Then MIOSHA safety, I became the safety
director and I dealt with the government. I took care of MIOSHA and stuff and it was
like a regular job, back and forth. All that time I could never understand, this is dull, but
it was a regular, regular job and I did all right by it, because the people at Thornapple
Valley showed me how to invest, so I whipped, not a great one, but I got a little 401k, I
got the army pension, which is not a great amount of money, but it‘s nice. The other
thing is, I also draw some Agent Orange money. I applied for the Agent Orange stuff
because I got sugar diabetes, which they hooked up with the Agent Orange, and here I am
today. 38:05 I guess you could play the song.
Interviewer: I’ll tell you, you’ve gone almost the entire three hour tape here, and
you’ve told one heck of a story.
Is that right? That‘s my life, let‘s see, what else, oh—some of the stuff, like I‘ve met Roy
Rogers. When I was at Walter Reed he came for a Sunday service, and I took care of him
and his horse. Let‘s see, Nixon, I met Nixon, I had the, I don‘t know how you‘d put this,
but Kennedy came to Berlin and we had to take care of him too, so I met all those people.
Nixon, I said Nixon, and did you ever hear of Bedell Smith?

66

�Interviewer: Yes
You did?
Interviewer: One of Eisenhower’s aides.
He—was the top one—well; I got to tell you a little story. I‘m at Walter Reed Army
Medical Center and one day there‘s a clamp down-boom. Don‘t go in this door; don‘t go
in that door and I thought, ―What the hell‘s going on?‖ Churchill was coming, so
Churchill arrives, I don‘t know what it‘s all about, but I see him come through the door, I
never met him, but I seen him. He came through the door and I finally got the word what
it was all about. Bedell Smith was dying and he had been the CIA man. They had an
Admiral who first started the CIA and then he screwed it all up. They brought Bedell
Smith in and he knew all the secrets in the world I guess and they really covered him
because I guess he was getting Alzheimer‘s. 40:08

They didn‘t want him to—and it

wasn‘t too long and he died there, but I was surprised, they really clamped down. I
thought, ―Who the hell?‖ I knew Bedell Smith to be the Chief of Staff and the—but boy,
he—and of course, Eisenhower came there and who else? I‘m trying to think, oh, Dean
Martin and Jerry Lewis, the use to come up with the programs, you know, and we would
support them when I was at Walter Reed, and Dean Martin was just like you know him.
He could care less, didn‘t want to go practice or nothing. The other guy was something
else, get this done, do this, do this. 41:02 I like old Dean Martin, but I didn‘t like the
other guy too much. So I met them all, Pearl Mesta, you know, and all these people and
they all came there, you know what I mean, that‘s the end, if you can‘t make it there, or
at least at that time, you couldn‘t make it. Those are some of my experiences and here I
am a dumb, I mean, a dumb kid from Boston. I went to school in East Boston, but really,

67

�when I left there, I mean, I didn‘t know noth‘n, and I got a degree in the army. The army
taught me how to read, how to write, how to be responsible and I just loved the army
when it was a winner, you know what I mean. Well, you know the story, so I kept going
and if it was today‘s army I‘d join it tomorrow morning. 42:04 But, I‘m an old—I‘ll be
eighty-five next month and I‘m too far gone, but I back them up now, don‘t get me
wrong, and I try to do the best I can for them.
Interviewer: Well, thank you for coming in and sharing your story here.
Well, I‘ll tell you what happened. My grandkids are the ones that really pushed me to it,
because, you know, they keep asking me these different questions. Oh, and two of my
kids were born at Walter Reed Army Medical Center, one in Berlin, one in Topeka, and
one in Grand Rapids, and my daughter, right now, is a bomb disposal expert and she‘s
been in Iraq and spent a year there, so we‘re still in the military, and Patsy‘s father, of the
woman I married, he was a Full Colonel in the army. D-Day, he went through the whole
thing, so we‘re all family and we can go back to the Civil War if we have to. So, that‘s
us, we‘re not rich, but I‘m happy.
Interviewer: Alright, and I thank you very much.
You‘re welcome and I just hope I haven‘t bored you with a lot of this.
Interviewer: Not at all 43:18

68

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                    <text>Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
Basil Morris
World War II
Total Time: 1:57:27
Childhood and Pre-Enlistment (0:00:13)
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Born in 1922 in Allegan County, Michigan.
He lived on farms while he was a child.
He attended high school in Otsego, Michigan and graduated in 1941.
He worked for the local paper after graduation, and attended Parsons Business
School.
He remembers going to church after hearing about the attack on Pearl Harbor.
(0:05:02) He enlisted in the Air Corps in the January following the attacks.

Training (0:06:26)
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He was then called up to Detroit where they boarded trains for Santa Ana,
California.
(0:07:10) He signed up to be a mechanic, but he was given a pilots assignment,
and he took ground school at Santa Ana. Ground school consisted of book work,
and some physical training.
(0:10:00) There was no place to send them after ground school, so they were sent
to Merced, California where they practiced taxiing.
(0:10:30) They were sent to Dos Palos, California where they trained in open
cockpit planes.
(0:11:30) It took him a little longer than most to solo pilot the planes, but his
instructor got him through it.
He got married in Las Vegas, Nevada while he was stationed in California.
(0:18:02) His wife was able to rent rooms from people in the area of the bases.
(0:18:20) He was then trained on B-13s. It took him a very long time, but he was
eventually able to solo and graduate on multi-engine aircraft.
(0:20:20) He was then sent to Roswell, New Mexico where he crashed on his first
solo flight. They never got off the ground.
(0:22:15) He had to go before a board to decide whether or not he would be
allowed to continue the program. He told them he did not want to continue, but
they allowed him to return to basic flight school at Santa Ana, California.
(0:22:45) He was then sent to Albuquerque, New Mexico where he was trained to
be a bombardier. He was trained on the Norden Bomb Sight.
His wife was always able to follow him from base to base.
(0:26:50) He was then sent to Clovis, New Mexico for navigation training.
(0:27:30) Next, he was given leave, and was subsequently given orders to report
to McCook, Nebraska where the 454th Bomb Group was forming up.

�Active Duty (0:27:45)
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He became a part of the 736th Squadron of the 454th. They flew B-24s.
(0:29:45) He was then shipped to Charleston, South Carolina by train. He was
appointed car commander for this trip.
(0:30:36) In Charleston, he was assigned to train bombardiers.
(0:32:50) He was then shipped overseas. They were first sent to Mitchell Field in
New York, and then to Florida, Puerto Rico, Trinidad, and then Natal, Brazil.
They stayed in Natal for a time while they were waiting for the airfields in West
Africa to clear. Eventually, they made it to West Africa, and were then flown to
Tunis, Tunisia where they waited for further airfields to clear.
(0:37:30) They arrived in Tunis in January, 1944 and the flew to Italy shortly
thereafter. They stayed in tents while they were there.
(0:39:26) His aircraft was a squadron leader.
(0:40:50) They would receive a pre-dawn briefing before flights. On his 3rd
mission they were sent to bomb a facility in Austria. They ran into some very
heavy flak, and as they flew over the target German fighter aircraft attacked them.
They were hit in the nose turret, and it was knocked out of commission. Two of
their engines caught fire and they had to leave the group and drop altitude. They
were then given the order to bail out.
(0:49:35) They bailed out through the bomb bay doors. He landed in an open field
in a small mountain village. He opened his parachute at the very last moment
because of rumors that the Germans were shooting down American aviators while
they were parachuting.
(0:54:05) He decided to run for some woods and a farm. He got part of the way
across the field when he heard some women talking and he lay down in the
middle of the field. He then saw two young men with rifles, who were not
soldiers, approach him from behind, and he decided to give up without a fight.
(0:57:00) He handed the young men his pistol, and they took him back to their
house where they dried his clothes out for him. He was then taken to a local beer
hall where they offered beer and cigarettes, which he did not take. He was then
taken into town and handed over to the chief of police.
(1:01:27) He was questioned when he got to the police station. All he would tell
them was name, rank, and serial number as he was trained to do.
(1:02:50) He was then turned over to the German Army. He was placed in a halftrack and eventually the sidecar of a motorcycle. He was finally placed alone in a
cell
(1:04:45) He stayed in that cell for several hours before he was put in the halftrack again. They ended up in Freistadt, where he was taken to prison. He was
able to meet up with part of his crew while he was there.
(1:08:05) They were put on passenger trains later that afternoon and shipped to
Frankfurt, Germany. There they were placed in a building with 30 other prisoners.

�
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(1:10:35) They were there one night, before they were sent to another building.
There, they were given prison uniforms. They also had to fill out information
forms there.
(1:12:30) They were then put on another train for Berlin, Germany where they
were placed in former barracks. These barracks were in rather poor condition.
[This was in a Luftstalag in eastern Germany, not in Berlin itself.]
(1:15:50) They were fed barley infested with worms on a regular basis. They were
also given potatoes with sawdust and sauerkraut with glass in it.
(1:17:10) They did many things while they were in the camp, including bible
study and plays.
(1:18:05) There were some suicides while he was in the camp.
(1:18:45) Food parcels were supposed to arrive weekly from the Red Cross, but
they only occasionally got them. They were also sent cigarettes on a regular
basis, which became a sort of currency in the camp.
(1:20:45) There were several escape attempts in the prison while he was there.
(1:23:20) The camp was mostly American officers
(1:24:30) They had a radio hidden somewhere in the camp, by which they got
updates on the war. He never knew where exactly it was hidden, but there was
one in the camp.
(1:26:45) The men in the camp were able to make an alcoholic drink out of the
prunes from the Red Cross kits.
(1:27:20) Most of the guards were older men not fit for any other type of military
service.
(1:30:20) They could hear when the Russians were getting close. Eventually they
were freed by the Russians and released into American custody after about 2
weeks of negotiation.
(1:34:10) He went home first thing after he was released from custody.
(1:37:55) His wife learned that he was a POW via the Ham Radio operators on the
East Coast that had intercepted German radio and Red Cross transmissions. She
knew he was MIA for 3 months before she found out he was a POW.
(1:41:00) He was taken to Camp Lucky Strike where he waited for three weeks
for a boat. He was finally given a spot on the USS Admiral Mayo. The weather
was very bad on the crossing. They eventually arrived in New York City.
(1:45:20) His back and knees got messed up while he was over there, for which he
had several surgeries.
He was sent to Miami Beach upon his arrival in the United States to bring his
records up to date. He was given 60 Days leave

Post-Service


He eventually enrolled in the University of Michigan business school.

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                    <text>Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
Shirley Morris
Interviewer: James Smither
Transcribed by Emilee G. Johnson, Western Michigan University
Length: 30:33
James Smither: We’re talking today with Shirley Morris of Ionia, Michigan, the interviewer is
James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans’ History Project. Now,
Mrs. Morris, can you start by telling us a little bit about your background, to begin with,
where and when were you born?
Shirley Morris: Well, I was born in Boston, Massachusetts in 1923. And my father was studying
to be a minister and he went to school there, so my sister and I were both born there in
Massachusetts. And then since my folk were both from the West, we returned to
Colorado where my father had a small church. And eventually we moved up 1:00 to
northern Wyoming and I went into nurses’ training in 1941 in Billings, Montana.
James Smither: Now before we talk about that, tell me a little bit about what your life was like
growing up in Colorado, Wyoming, I mean, what kind of places were these that you lived
in?
Shirley Morris: Well, we did live in Utah for a while, and that’s where we started to school, they
had good schools, but then, I started high school in Wyoming and graduated in, must’ve
been 1941. And then 2:00 my folks wanted us to continue schooling, they couldn’t
afford to send us to a university or a college so, by going into nurses’ training, my sister
and I both went, we could get our training and our education, it was three solid years, we
never had any, we had one week off on the first two years and the second week
[misspoke] we had two weeks off for vacation, so it’s almost like a four-year college
course would be, and…
James Smither: Now how did you pay for that, or did the program pay for it?
Shirley Morris: Well, it was paid for through our work. We had three months of schooling, we
were transported in buses to a school in Billings, 3:00 for our work and the rest was
right at the hospital and then we started gradually working on the wards. And we
continued with this schooling, all through the three years, working almost full time
toward the last. And I graduated in, let’s see, ’44.
James Smither: Now before you graduated, were you paying much attention to the news from the
war and that kind of thing or were you so busy, you didn’t notice?

�Shirley Morris: Oh, we all paid very close attention because we all had relatives, I had two
brothers in the service. And of course, you’d get daily news of it and we were very
concerned about it. And I can remember, 4:00 it was on the Sunday they attacked Pearl
Harbor, I remember that very well because I was just coming out of church and we heard
the news that Pearl Harbor had been bombed. And that was, of course, very upsetting.
James Smither: Were you in nursing school by that time? Had you started that?
Shirley Morris: I was, I think I was through nursing school by then.
James Smither: Or at least first term, or? Cause that’s 1941, you would’ve been 18, so. Pearl
Harbor is 1941. So, that would’ve been about the beginning of your nurses training, I
guess.
Shirley Morris: Yes.
James Smither: All right, that happens. Now, when you were 5:00 training in the hospital, were
you thinking about the prospect of joining the military, or was that a plan?
Shirley Morris: No, in a way they, I guess this was through an act of Congress, they established
the Cadet Nurses. And we were paid about $30 a month and we were given little
uniforms to wear when we were off duty. And we were quite proud of those, and that
helped us a lot with our payments and so on for the schooling. And at that time, that’s
when rationing started, and we had, you know, you’d get points and you could only buy
so many pairs of shoes. But I remember that nurses could have one extra point so you
could buy your white 6:00 work shoes. But I remember I wore my uniform, by that
time, my folks had moved back here to Michigan, they wanted to be where there was
better schools for my brothers and I wore this uniform and I don’t think a lot of people
understood just what that meant, they knew it had something to do with the service but
not many people had seen that type of uniform before. But I thought I could, maybe I
could get my fare cheaper if I had a uniform. [laughs] But I remember, I took the
Greyhound bus and you had about 20 minutes to eat or wash up or whatever it was, well,
I was young and hungry so 7:00 I just washed my hands and when I got back there, my
arms weren’t very clean back in the [laughs] from just washing my hands, but it was an
interesting trip. Course I was glad to get back to see my folks. I started working at the
little hospital here, it was an old house that they had renovated and I worked there until I
joined the service and…
James Smither: Now, what motivated you to join the service? Why did you join the service?
Shirley Morris: Well they said they needed nurses, they were, of course, expecting to have a lot
of casualties, and they kept saying, we need nurses, we need nurses, so a friend of mine

�and I decided to enlist in the Navy. Like I said, when I got the call to go it was in the
Army and I said, well, 8:00 I’m not going to go. [laughs] And I decided that… And
they told me I would be considered AWOL if I didn’t go so I packed up and we went to
Camp McCoy, Wisconsin. And we were put through marching and how to salute and
calisthenics and we all lost weight, but we learned the basics of Army life. And course,
we were outfitted with different uniforms. The uniform we wore to work in the hospital
was a brown-and-white sear-sucker wrap-around and the caps were kind of a pointed
thing that tied in the back and that’s what we wore on duty. And we were given an olive
green two-piece suit for dress and then the light beige for dress-up. 9:00 And we were
given fatigues and we were given boots, ankle-length boots and underwear, it was cotton,
it came down over our knees. And different kind of caps, we had the visor cap with the
little [motions], what do you call, the little peak cap.
James Smither: Now, I want to fill in a little bit about your training, you said you did do a
version of basic training, then, at Camp McCoy, in Wisconsin. And were you training just
with other nurses, or was this with women of all kinds, from the WACs too.
Shirley Morris: This was nurses that were all graduated and we were being trained how to be a
military nurse. You know, 10:00 with the marching and saluting, and that sort of thing.
James Smither: Now, were you going to get to be commissioned officers because you were
nurses?
Shirley Morris: Yes. We were inducted as officers because we had had the three years of
training.
James Smither: All right. Was that helpful to you in any way? Was it good to have the status of
an officer or did you not notice?
Shirley Morris: It really didn’t—we didn’t have the background to compare it with. I never met
many officers or soldiers or anything to know just what that meant but I soon found out
because when I got to Japan, I found out that, through letters that I had a cousin that was
in the service. But he was an enlisted man. And I could not go out with him any place, we
had to sit in the parlor and visit. [laughs] 11:00
James Smither: Cause you outranked him. Ok. Now, how long did the training at Camp McCoy
take? Was it just a couple weeks, or?
Shirley Morris: No, that was about three months.
James Smither: Ok. So were you getting any training about Army medicine, or that kind of thing,
or was it all just Army discipline, and…?

�Shirley Morris: Army discipline because we already knew about medicine and all of that. And
then we were put on a train and sent down to South Carolina and that’s when we heard
the news that the atomic bomb had been dropped. And we thought, well, we won’t have
to go now, but that didn’t make any difference, they still sent us on. We went down
through the Panama Canal, which was fascinating, and we got to get off the ship for a
while 12:00 there and see some of the, some of the police officers who were working
there and they kind of took us over and showed us around. It was nice. And then we went
back up to Hawaii.
James Smither: Now what kind of ship were you on?
Shirley Morris: It was a hospital ship. It was made for shipping patients. But it had a, there was a
compliment of thirty nurses that were assigned to the ship, but we took over, the places
where we could be with patients, just, we were in bunks, and so…
James Smither: And how many were on it when you started?
Shirley Morris: Well there was a thousand of us, which is a lot of women 13:00 and then,
course, as I said, after we got up through the Panama Canal, they sent five hundred back
to San Francisco and dispersed them over the States. And the rest of us went on overseas
to, well, to Hawaii, and then to, we went to the Philippines, and they kept breaking us up
into smaller units and I was sent down to Leyte. And that was, we took care of patients
that were, by then any casualties had been sent back to the States, so what we took care of
were just things that civilians had, tonsillectomies and appendectomies and malaria,

14:00 and that type of thing. And we lived in a, we had a twelve-foot-high burlap wall
all around our quarters, and there was a wooden floor and there was four of us in a little
hut. And we had cots with mosquito netting over it, because there was rats around too.
[laughs] And Filipino girls came and asked to work for us. Well, that was fine, they’d
take our clothes and wash it and keep the place tidy and clean and… But one thing we
had to deal with was mildew, it was constant, you know, you couldn’t put your suitcase
on the floor or it would get all white and mildewy. So, the only place we could go was if
we went with an officer, 15:00 so we, they would all find us a date and we would go to
an officers’ club and that was it. There was no place else to go, but…
James Smither: Was there much of a hospital facility there?
Shirley Morris: It was all just like our living quarters, it was wooden floors and tents and all the
patients had mosquito netting to put over them at night. And we worked, called tropical
hours, we worked six hours, instead of eight and we wore slacks, tan slacks and tan shirts
for work. And let’s see, I forget how many months, we were over there around, I’m not

�quite sure how long it was. 16:00 It was just a short time, several months. Maybe just
over three months.
James Smither: Right.
Shirley Morris: And they put us on another hospital ship, it was called the Hope and we were
sent to Japan. And they had taken over all the Japanese hospitals. And I was stationed at
the 76th General. And we had quarters right next to the building. And there we had to
wear our sear-sucker uniforms. And we had ward boards [????boys? boards? Not sure
what she’s saying???] that helped us, and one of the ward boards????, I found out, was
from Michigan, near where I lived. So he would come and talk once in a while. And then
there was a patient that he said was from my home town, and so this fellow 17:00 came
to see me, and course, I hadn’t lived here very long in Ionia, and so he wanted to visit and
hear about everybody but I wasn’t much help. [laughs] But we had a good visit. But it
happened that when I got home, I went into a furniture store to buy my folks a rug, and
the fellow that came to wait on me, I knew him immediately, he looked just like his
brother, and so I started talking to him and then he delivered the rug that I had bought for
my folks and we started dating, and he’s the man I married. [laughs]
James Smither: Ok, let’s back up a little bit, let’s go back to the Philippines, here, for a minute.
When you were in the Philippines, did you have to take drugs against malaria? Did you
take atabrine, or something like that?
Shirley Morris: Yes, we did. Oh, I remember all the nurses that had been there, how yellow

18:00 they looked, but we still had to take it, we had to take salt tablets and atabrine, all
the time we were there.
James Smither: Did you have any problems with any of the tropical diseases or were you able to
stay clean enough and healthy enough that that wasn’t a problem?
Shirley Morris: No, there was no problems with any of that for any of us, I don’t know if the
girls before us, they didn’t seem to have any problems except they had this yellow cast to
their complexion from taking that atabrine.
James Smither: Now, were there many American servicemen left in the Philippines while you
were there, or were they all getting sent home?
Shirley Morris: Oh there were some there yet, they had to keep them there to help maintain the
peace. That’s where we’d get the patients from and there were some English people I
remember too, there was one Englishman, that, he told us he always thought American
girls were kind 19:00 of cheeky. [laughs] There problems were just what you would
have in regular civilian life.

�James Smither: Right. Ok, tell me a little bit more about Japan. Where in Japan were you
stationed? Where was your hospital?
Shirley Morris: It was in Tokyo. The 76th General and it was a Japanese hospital that the
Americans had taken over. And their bathrooms were something to be desired. There was
just a hole in the floor. And you had to squat. [laughs] That was hard. And we had little
Japanese boys that would help, they didn’t deliver the trays to the patients, they took
them back, and we had to watch them real close because they would eat the food from the
trays. And one little boy was really clever at it, and he 20:00 started getting fat from
eating that food. [laughs]
James Smither: What physical condition was that area of Tokyo in? Were you in a place—
Shirley Morris: Tokyo was in good condition, they had tried not to bomb especially around the
Imperial Palace and that… Tokyo was just, the outlying places was bombed because they
knew that they had given war work to the individual homes. And Yokohama was bombed
badly cause that was considered a manufacture center. So we didn’t see a lot of
destruction in Tokyo.
James Smither: In general, how did the Japanese people behave toward you?
Shirley Morris: [bows]

21:00

James Smither: They bowed a lot?
Shirley Morris: [nods]
James Smither: Did you deal with many of them except the boys that helped clear out the stuff,
did they work in the hospital?
Shirley Morris: No. There was one girl that worked as sort of a receptionist at our, the home
where we stayed. And she spoke English, we could talk to her. And she was, she didn’t
have much to say, she was always real polite and her job was to sit at the desk and if
anybody came calling for us, she’d come to the room. And sometimes we’d say, “Well,
what did they look like, how tall are they?” And she’d come and stand next to us and
she’d go like this [motions upward]. [laughs] But I can’t remember that there was
anything disrespectful 22:00 or you know, walking in the streets or anything,
everybody was just sort of nonchalant. Course we had to get used to the bowing, they all
did their bowing, no matter what. But I remember, we went out to the country, we’d get a
jeep and go for a ride and they used to, they called them honey carts, you had alleys by
all the homes and they would take waste from these homes and take it out and put it on
the fields. So we were warned never to eat anything other than what we got from the
hospital. Although we did, if you became ill, which I did, I had a bite on my forehead and

�I developed a fever and I couldn’t work, so 23:00 they sent me to, what-you-call-it,
TDY, Temporary Duty, and I was sent to a, it was sort of a resort area at the foot of
Mount Fujiyama. And I could take one of my friends with me, And the food there was
really good. And there was a lot of different nationalities, I remember the table next to us
there was some fellas that were from India, they had the turbans on.
James Smither: The Sikhs, yeah.
Shirley Morris: And that was interesting. And some of them did hike up, start up Mount Fuji, but
I wasn’t allowed to do that. But that was a restful time. A nice break.
James Smither: Did you enjoy the work? 24:00 Did you like being a nurse in the Army?
Shirley Morris: Yes, I did. I felt like I was doing my part.
James Smither: In general, how did the military personnel treat the nurses? Did they respect what
you were doing and treat you like professionals, or?
Shirley Morris: Yes. Sometimes, I think, the civilians on trains, I don’t think they knew the
difference between a WAC and a nurse. Sometimes some people would sort of look
down on the WACs. And I think sometimes they didn’t realize, you know, they didn’t see
your insignia, and realize the difference. I could feel that on the trains at times. But
otherwise, you know, the nurses were respected and…
James Smither: Now, when you were in Japan, were you treating military American personnel
only, or did you have Japanese people or civilians? 25:00 Who were your patients in
Japan?
Shirley Morris: Oh, they were Americans. We had no Japanese. When I was a nurse, I worked in
Billings, that was when I was in training, there was a Japanese man that was quite
wealthy, and you know, the Japanese were moved from California, they were moved
back into Wyoming, there was a camp where they put these Japanese. And since he was
quite wealthy he could move from that area, it wasn’t very pleasant, they just had
barracks. I felt sorry for them. But he was a patient and I got to know him and he came to
visit my folks and he gave them 26:00 a beautiful picture because they were so nice to
him. [turns and points] It’s that picture over there. [laughs] He gave it to them, he was a
nice gentleman. But you could tell they were resentful from having to be moved. Cause
they considered themselves, I don’t know whether they considered themselves American,
whether they were naturalized or not but they were, no matter what, they were, all of
them were shipped from the California coast.

�James Smither: Are there particular events, things that happened while you were overseas that
kind of stand out in your memory? If you think back to being in Japan or in the
Philippines, what do you think about? 27:00
Shirley Morris: Well, it’s just hard to say, the whole thing was sort of, put together, I consider it
really, I think it was a privilege and I felt like I got a lot out of it. As well as, like I was
doing a part for the war effort. But if I’ve ever talked to anybody, a group, and I said I’d
been so-and-so places and they said, “Oh, you have?” And I’ve said, “I had a rich uncle.
His name was Uncle Sam.” [laughs] 28:00
James Smither: So a good way to see the world, then.
Shirley Morris: Yeah. But as far as anything outstanding, it was just, it was the whole thing
together.
James Smither: All right, now how long did you stay in Japan?
Shirley Morris: Well, I think it was, maybe the same time as the Philippines, it was probably
about three months.
James Smither: And then, when your time was done in Japan, how did they send you home?
Shirley Morris: A ship.
James Smither: Was it a hospital ship or just a regular transport now?
Shirley Morris: It was a transport, not a hospital ship. They had all the women on one deck and
they had all the soldiers on the other one and we used to lean over and talk to each other.
[laughs] And then we landed in 29:00 Oregon and we were sent by, I think we were
sent by train to Chicago, Illinois. And then we were dispersed from there to our homes.
James Smither: Now when you got back home, did you take a job as a nurse, or did you just get
married, or what did you do?
Shirley Morris: Well, I worked for three years, as a nurse at the hospital here in town, so, as I
said, I met my husband and we went together for about that long, and we got married.
Lived on the farm. [laughs] I’d never lived on a farm in my life, I had a lot to learn. But I
loved every minute of it. 30:00
James Smither: All right. Well, it makes for a good story, so unless you’ve got something else
you want to add to the record here, we can kind of close this out.
Shirley Morris: Well, I can’t think of anything except to say that I hope we never have to go
through it again, but I would do it all over again if I had to.

�James Smither: All right. Well, thank you very much for taking the time to talk to me today.

30:33

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                    <text>Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
Name of Interviewee: Roger Morrison
Name of War: World War II
Length of Interview: (01:45:07)
(00:15) Background Information
•
•
•
•
•
•

Roger was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan on February 21, 1924
His father worked a s a metal polisher and lost his job during the Depression
He then began working part time and making only half as much per hour
His father worked at Michigan Wheel Company during the war making propellers
Roger went to school until he was 14 years old and then began working at a bait shop
His brother had been drafted even before Pearl Harbor was attacked

(6:35) Drafted Into the Army
• Roger was drafted in February 1943, right before his 19th birthday
• He was sent to Fort Grant in Illinois for induction and then to Fort Bliss is El Paso, Texas
• He went through basic training where they worked on gunnery, guard duty, marching,
infantry, and military discipline
(10:45) New Mexico
• The men stayed in tar paper shacks on their base; it was very hot during the day and cold
at night
• Roger had finished training in August of 1943 and had trained for 6 months altogether
• They had time on leave to go to Mexico where they could get lots of goods for a very low
price; there was no rationing south of the border
• They were told to basically pig out and eat lots of ice cream and drink lots of milk
because once they went overseas they would not be able to
• Roger was assigned to the 13th Infantry Division and they began training with the 12th
and 14th Divisions
(14:15) Overseas
• They left from New York on the SS Monterey, a passenger ship
• It was a 12 day voyage and there were not enough bunks, so half the men had to sleep on
deck every other night while the others slept in bunks
• They traveled in a convoy with warships; there were about 100,000 troops altogether
• They landed in Oran and waited for another week or so for their guns and other supplies
• They were then shipped in rail cars through the Atlas Mountains to Tunisia where their
battalion was stationed

�(20:25) North Africa
•

They worked in Algiers with anti-aircraft guns

•

If planes came through the airspace they were guarding and had no ID, they were
supposed to take them down, even if the plane did appear to be American

•

The Germans were working on reconnaissance and always came through at night

•

The Americans had 548 radar that helped detect German planes at night

•

They were the Mediterranean and it was a very nice area

•

The Americans did not want to associate with the civilians and suspected that they stole
from them at night while they were sleeping

(34:10) Leaving Africa
•

The US had some Italian prisoners that had helped them work in the area

•

There were many Italian-Americans in their unit and everyone got along well with the
POWs

•

They left the area in July of 1944, heading toward Egypt where they were to meet the
British and head into Italy

•

All the men had already been expecting to be sent into Italy or France

(42:10) England
•

They moved North to England and stayed there for 6 weeks, waiting for supplies and
cleaning up US camps

•

They often stayed in the estates of old castles in the very green countryside

•

The men all received a few 3 day passes while they were there to travel through Britain

(45:10) France
•

The men were shipped to France on a ferry that held about 600 men and landed on
Omaha Beach

•

They stayed on the boat for 5 days waiting off the coast, about 1 mile for the beach

�•

There was not much activity and they felt like sitting ducks; it was about 139 days after D
Day

•

They finally got off the ship and went through a little village near Normandy, where they
decided to stay in a cow pasture

•

The area contained old German bunkers, hedgerows, orchards, and was the main landing
area for gliders

•

They then moved into Paris and set up positions in an old soccer field

•

Everything in Paris was very expensive and no one could afford anything, so most used
cigarettes as a bartering tool

•

There were no Germans there at the time and they stayed there for about 6 weeks

(55:20) Belgium
•

They had been stationed in the Liege area , a German anti-aircraft site

•

They were often attacked by German planes, but never hit

•

Roger was so busy, he was staying up for many days in a row and not getting any sleep

•

Belgium was very cold and no one had any proper winter clothing

(1:11:50) Back to France
•

They left Belgium to go to Germany on April 13, 1945, the day that Roosevelt died

•

The men had been staying on the West side of the Rhine River near a pontoon bridge

•

There were convoys carrying German POWs that were constantly crossing the River

•

Roger was sent to Marseilles to begin training for the war in the Pacific

•

They had only been working in Germany for 3 days and Roger would have liked to stay
longer

•

Roger was on guard duty in France and saw a lot of the growing black market

(1:23:20) Working in Europe
•

Roger was able to work with the same group of men while he was in Europe

•

A few were taken from their unit to serve as replacements in other units

�•

They mostly worked with their sergeants and did not see much of their officers

•

The men usually did not trust any of the civilians in Europe and felt that some of them
were German sympathizers

•

Roger really enjoyed visiting Germany and felt that much of their architecture was
similar to that in America

(1:27:20) Marseilles
•

Roger was in Marseilles from May through November; they were staying in small tents
guarded by MPs and Roger felt that they were all crooks

•

They left Marseilles on a very rough sea voyage

•

Throughout most of the trip Roger was worried that the old ship was going to break in
half

•

The ship landed in Boston after going through many large swells and everyone on the
ship was sick

•

It was very cold when they got off the ship and everyone was very hungry

•

They had arrived unexpectedly and no one was ready for them or had any food waiting

(1:32: 30) After Service
•

Roger was discharged at Camp Atterbury in Indiana

•

When he returned to Michigan Roger helped his parents build a new house

•

He continued working at the bait shop and then later got a job working in a factory

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                  <text>The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.</text>
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Boring, Frank</text>
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                <text>Roger Morrison was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan on February 21, 1924.  He went to school until he was 14 years old and then began working in a bait shop until he was drafted into the Army in February 1943.  Roger went through basic training in El Paso Texas and advanced training in New Mexico for a total of 6 months.  He was assigned to the 13th Infantry Division and first fought in North Africa, working with an anti-aircraft unit.  They later moved north into France, Belgium, Germany, and then back to Marseilles.  Roger had been training for the war in the Pacific in Marseilles, but was eventually discharged before being sent to the Pacific.  </text>
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                    <text>_.....,.. ---------~--~-----~------~----------~~ ----'\

$ie,OOO.OO

Muskegon, Michigan, W.ay

28,

1948

)

FOR VALUE RECEIVED, as hereinafter provided after date, we promise to pay to
THE HACKLEY UNION NATI&lt;NAL BANK OF MUSKEGON, MICHIGAN
or order, the sum of
~
SIXTY-FIVE THOUSAND DOLLARS ($65,000 .OO)
1/-' cJ - - ~ .
with interest at the rate of four percent
per annum, as follows:
the sum of Six Thousand( $6,000.00)Dollar~7 on tfie
28th
day of November, A.D.1948
and the sum of One Thousand($1,000.00)DollaBE/ij8rJh§0 r~8th day of December, A.D.1948,
and like sums of One Thousand ($1,000.00) Dollari7e~cn on the same and corresponding
date or dates of each and every succeeding and successive month after the month of
December 1948 until all sums secured by this mortgage have been fully paid. All
interest s ~ l be computed monthly with the first payment of interest to be due on
the
~ , : ; day of June, A.D.,1948 and monthly thereafter on the same date of each
and every succeeding and successive month thereafter until principal payments become
due hereunder and then monthly interest payments shall be made at the same time as
the principal payments are required to be made under the terms and provisions hereinbefore set forth. Principal or interest not paid when due shall bear interest at
the rate of five (5%) percent per annum; Provided however, that all of the rinci al
eu1&lt;l t1.cry--tntefrtfs~1, tl'ffil'.'eon snalT"'bepa.Ya in mi- not Tater than f'ive
) years rom t;
date of these presents. This is according to the tenor of a certain real estate mortgage bearing even date herewith and being collateral hereto.

&lt;iil

This note is secured by a certain real estate mortgage of even date herewith executed
by the Muskegon House of Jewish Worship, a Michigan non-profit corporation to The
Banking Association of Muskegon,
of the mortgagee, First

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                  <text>Temple B'nai Israel Collection</text>
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                  <text>Collection of photographs, scrapbooks, programs, minutes, and other records of the Temple B'nai Israel in Muskegon, Michigan. The collection was created as part of the L'dor V'dor project directed by Dr. Marilyn Preston, and was supported by grants from the Kutsche Office of Local History and Michigan Humanities Council. Original materials were digitized by the University Libraries and returned to the synagogue.</text>
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                  <text>Digital objects were contributed by Temple B'nai Israel as part of the L'dor V'dor project.</text>
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                  <text>&lt;a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/"&gt;In Copyright&lt;/a&gt;</text>
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                  <text>Jews--United States</text>
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                <text>Document detailing the mortgage for the Muskegon House of Jewish Worship, May 28, 1948.</text>
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                <text>Digital file contributed by the B'nai Israel Temple as part of the L'dor V'dor project.</text>
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                <text>Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives</text>
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                    <text>$42-, 7-50 . 00 ·

Muskegon, Michigan

December ,,2

? , 1949

FOR VALUE RECEIVED , \'le promise to pay to THE HACKLEY UNION
NATIONAL BANK OF ~•1USKEGON at its office, First Street ana_ Western Avenue ,
Huske c on , Michi gan , or order , the sum of Forty Two Thousanc Seven Hundred
Fift ,r and no / 100 ( $42 , 750 . 00) Dollars with interest at the rate of four ( 4)
per cent per annum , payable in □ onthly installments as follo1vs : Four Hunc1rea.
Fifty and no/100 ( $450 . 00) Dollars or more on the 28th day of December, 1949
and Four Hundred Fifty and no/100 ( $450.00) Dollars or more on the 28th day
of each and every month thereafter until the nrincipal and interest ar f' fully
paid , except tha t the final payu ent of ~rincipal and interest , if not sooner
paid; shall be due and payable on or before I-lay 28 , 19 58 . Interest shall be
computed. and paid monthly on the same d.c.te as principal payments are due .
In case of default in the payment of t'l''O monthly payments as above provia_ed ,
the entire sum then unpaid sha.11 become due and payable forthwith upon such
default .
·

This note is secured by a certain real estate mortg,,ge df!ted Mey 28, 19l.18 .end
is executed nnn d.e.Liverec -Dy ~cne ,1a7.rn1 '-' 16- c cSc-ep1, e-C- oy 1.,he I)ayee .ur .L.1.e-a.- u:i. ..,,...a
certain note a_a tea. Hay 28 , 191+8 in the principal sum of Sixty Five Thousand
and no /100 ( $65 , 000 . 00) DollP.rs uhich said n o te has been paid a_o1-m to the
princiual amount of this note .

~ra-.~7
Add ress :
Fourth Street and West
Muske gon, Michi gan

febster Avenue

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                  <text>Temple B'nai Israel Collection</text>
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                  <text>Temple B'nai Israel (Muskegon, Mich.)</text>
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                  <text>Collection of photographs, scrapbooks, programs, minutes, and other records of the Temple B'nai Israel in Muskegon, Michigan. The collection was created as part of the L'dor V'dor project directed by Dr. Marilyn Preston, and was supported by grants from the Kutsche Office of Local History and Michigan Humanities Council. Original materials were digitized by the University Libraries and returned to the synagogue.</text>
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              <name>Source</name>
              <description>A related resource from which the described resource is derived</description>
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                <elementText elementTextId="792636">
                  <text>Digital objects were contributed by Temple B'nai Israel as part of the L'dor V'dor project.</text>
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              <name>Rights</name>
              <description>Information about rights held in and over the resource</description>
              <elementTextContainer>
                <elementText elementTextId="792637">
                  <text>&lt;a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/"&gt;In Copyright&lt;/a&gt;</text>
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                  <text>Preston, Marilyn</text>
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                <text>DC-08_BI_Temple_Mortgage_Monetary_Details_2_1949-12-28</text>
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                <text>Digital file contributed by the B'nai Israel Temple as part of the L'dor V'dor project.</text>
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                    <text>Somebody Has To Believe!
From the series: Heroes in Clay: Moses
Richard A. Rhem
Christ Community Church
Spring Lake, Michigan
November 8, 1992
Transcription of the spoken sermon
Who am I that I should go to Pharaoh? Exodus 3:11
Now faith is the assurance of things hopes for, the conviction of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1

Two weeks ago, the last time that I was with you in this setting, I told you that I
was leaving for Boston for Brandeis University, and for the think tank on
Congregational Affiliation, which is funded by the Lilly Foundation and is
centered at the Center for Modern Jewish Studies at Brandeis outside of Boston. I
told you just briefly what I intended to say on Sunday night in the worship that I
was to lead - the Protestant worship service for that mixed group of Protestants,
Catholics and Jews. You were so very kind. You even applauded, and I left here
feeling I hardly needed the airplane in order to fly there. It was a great
encouragement to me and so many of you since I have returned have asked me
about it that I feel I must take just a moment to let you know it was one of those
experiences for which, having looked forward to it with great anticipation, all my
expectations were met. So seldom that happens in life - you look forward to
something and then it happens and we say, “Is that all there is?”
But this was really a wonderful experience, full of stimulation, full of very
wonderful people. There were about 50 of us and then a few presenters. The
subject was Congregational Affiliation and, as I said a few weeks ago, the reason
the study is being made is that many people in our culture are not affiliating with
churches and synagogues, and so the purpose was to find out why, and to try to
find ways in which to encourage people to return to the churches and to the
synagogues.
My Reformation Day message to them was a word in due season to the right
crowd. I didn’t know who was going to be there and, had I known, I would have
been scared to death, I think. There were a few denominational executives, many
professors in sociological research in religion, and then there were a few gardenvariety practitioners like myself. But when I said to them at the conclusion of the
message that we have met the enemy and it is us - it could not have been spoken
more poignantly to a better crowd. My suggestion was that the big problem is all
of our divisions, all of our structures and institutions that keep us separated and
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apart from one another. And so my message was a word of judgment at the
purpose of the whole think tank. What a way to honor an invitation!
It would have helped a little bit if I had had a little more leisure time. I knew that
the schedule was tight, but the plane was late and then the taxicab got lost. I was
to preach at 7:30 p.m. and I walked in at 7:30. It is a wonderful way to get ready
for divine worship, biting your fingernails all the way. But it went quite well,
actually.
It was quite well received in spite of the fact that I was suggesting that maybe we
were dealing with the symptoms rather than getting down to the root cause. But I
did what I promised to do. I suggested that we undo the divisions between
Catholics and Protestants, between the East and the West, between Islam and
Judaism, and between Christianity and Judaism. Just a mild proposal.
(Laughter) An impossible possibility. But it is a possibility, and after being there
and associating with priests and pastors and rabbis, I believe it could happen if
we would all simply get out of the way. There is really not any good reason why
we could not all be children of God - together, except for the vested interest in
established institutional structures. I believed that before I went, I said it while I
was there, and coming away from the experience I am convinced that it is true.
The problem is to find somebody who will believe it. To find somebody who
would be outrageous enough to propose it and actively pursue it. That’s what this
world desperately needs. Somebody to believe. Somebody to believe that things
do not have to be forever as they have been. Somebody to believe that God has
dreams and surprises that have not yet entered the human mind to conceive of.
Someone to believe.
Today, and for a couple of weeks, I want to look at some biblical characters.
Heroes. Heroes in Clay. God knows we need heroes. We love heroes, and we have
in our past heroic men and women of faith. But, if we are honest, the heroes are
always heroes in clay, for the point that I want to make is not that these were
gigantic figures, extraordinary people who are able to do great things for God. My
point is simply this: that God is able to do extraordinary things through very
ordinary people if only God can find a man or a woman to believe. God knows
somebody has to believe.
Moses is our first Hero in Clay. The story is so very familiar. The situation is the
oppression of Egypt. Male children of the Israelites are being killed at birth
because of the population growth and the threat that these Israelites posed to the
Pharaoh. This mighty civilization of the ancient world was now in slavery, and
their children were being done away with. Moses was miraculously rescued,
nursed by his own mother, after having been rescued by a daughter of Pharaoh
and raised in the splendor and nurture of that marvelous Egyptian civilization,
coming to a point of responsibility in a leadership role. But seeing his own people,
the Hebrew slaves, abused, he rises up in indignation one day and kills an
Egyptian. And, in that moment of wrath, righteous though it may have been, he

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recognizes that his whole life now is changed. He flees Egypt. He finds the
wilderness. He tends sheep for a man named Jethro, whose daughter he marries.
And for years and decades he broods on the course of his life and that moment
that changed everything. He must certainly have gone through times when he
said to himself, “Egypt must have it right and the gods of Egypt that seal and
bless that whole system must be Gods indeed. The slaves are but animals, worth
nothing. My righteous rising up and committing of murder was an irrational
moment without foundation in truth.” But was it? As he brooded on it, at other
times must he not have been gripped by the conviction that, “No, that can not be
right. Slaves are slaves, but slaves are human. Slaves are people. Slaves have
feelings. Slaves must not be used as a commodity, as so much chattel. As he
brooded in the isolation of the desolate wilderness, I wonder if he churned
inwardly. All of his education. All of his culture. Now in that isolated wilderness
with hours and days and years to think.
Chaim Potok, the Jewish novelist, is the one who gave me a window into the
psyche of Moses, how he must have struggled with that watershed moment of his
life - that rash action and what it was that caused him to rise up and kill a man. It
may have been the culmination of those years of internal struggle that caused him
one day to be confronted with a phenomenon - a bush that burned but was not
consumed. I think so often in our Sunday School theology we picture a literal
bush and a literal flame, and an audible voice and all of that, but I think Potok
may be right that, suddenly, all of that that was churning within him came to a
point in which God manifested God’s self. There was that inward conviction that
the gods of Egypt were not gods, that there must be another God, some other
source of truth that was pressuring him and pushing him.
Then he hears a voice that comes in a vision, full of mystery and awe, in which he
is encountered by this wholly other One who says, “Take off your shoes, for this is
holy ground. I have heard the cry of my people. You are right, Moses. Treating
human beings as a commodity is wrong. Slavery is wrong. I am the God of people
who would have them free and accorded dignity and respect. You are right,
Moses, and I call you to go and to lead them out of their servitude, and I will be
with you.” Moses says, “Who? Me? Who are you?” “I am that I am” comes the
answer. Now that translation is not a good translation. The Hebrew translated by
our verb “to be” doesn’t exist in the Hebrew language. There is no verb for
“being.” That’s too static. Rather, those who know the language have a nuance
which suggests that what God was saying was not, “This is my name,” but “I am
the God who will be there for you. I will be truly there. I will be present for you. I
will be whatever I need to be in any situation wherever you go.”
So in Moses we have the coming together of a deeply held truth about what God
would have for human persons, and this sense - this word, “Go. I’ll go with you.”
Too often I think we set biblical heroes high on a pedestal as though they were
some other breed than the rest of us. We assume that it must have been crystal

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clear. Moses, just go and do it. But it wasn’t so crystal clear as indicated by the
subsequent conversation with God. If we had time to go on to the fourth chapter
we would find Moses saying, “Can’t we reconsider? Who am I, after all? Not me,
please. I can’t even speak eloquently,” and finally, “Could you send somebody
else?” This is God’s hero - wanting to pass the buck. This is the man of deep
conviction - full of self-doubt, shrinking from the moment of encounter after the
moment of epiphany.
A Hero in Clay - just like the rest of us. Scared to death. Shrinking from the
execution of that which had gripped him in the depths of his being. “But, Moses,
somebody has to believe.” “Yes, but not me - please could you send somebody
else?” Isn’t that so like our human experience? Can’t you identify with Moses at a
time like that? Rather than marching forth in the strength of God on the basis of
this revelation, this epiphany, this bush that burned and was not consumed,
Moses slinks away and tries to get out of it. If only it could have been nailed down
with certainty. Isn’t that the way we wish we could live?
I met with a couple this summer. Their life seemed as though it might be coming
to a crossroad. They gave me a call, hoping that this man of God could help them
determine which way the arrow of God’s will was pointing. (Ah hah.) I just smiled
at them. They said, “Well how can we know?” I said, “You can’t know.”
How do you know the will of God? You don’t know the will of God. Oh,
sometimes some few of us have some kind of mystical experience, some kind of
clarity. But for the most part, we live making decisions one after another, so
wishing we really knew, but we really don’t know. That’s what it means to be
human. We live in the ambiguity of our historical existence where we always have
to decide with partial knowledge and limited understanding. And so the
decisions, ultimately, are decisions made on faith. Could you send somebody
else? Now the deep conviction and the promise of God’s presence are neutralized
by fear. That’s our great enemy. We are afraid. What if we crawl out on a limb and
somebody cuts it off? “What if I cross the border into Egypt and they still have
papers for my arrest?” “What if I go to the people with this message that you
purportedly are giving me and they reject me? What if I try and fail?” Are we not
time and again stunted by fear? Fear of rejection, fear of failure, fear of making a
fool of ourselves? We don’t expose our deepest yearnings and desires and hopes
and dreams. We don’t dare tell anybody because we are afraid they will laugh.
And after all, how do we really know?
Last week I was in New York at our Perspectives board meeting, and someone
suggested that we need to do an issue on angels. One of the members of the board
said, “I’m running into people all over the place who are having all sorts of
experiences with angels.” And someone else said, “I’m not.” He was told, “You are
probably not giving them permission to tell you.”
Do you remember the stories of near death experiences that exploded a few years
ago? Suddenly, one was reported and then another, and then a whole rash of

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them because most of us don’t dare tell those deepest intuitions, longings and
dreams of our life. We are too afraid. Afraid that we will be laughed at, scorned or
rejected. Moses said, “I think probably you would probably be there for me, and I
do think that it would be right that slaves be set free, but could you send
somebody else?”
About two or three years ago after one of my Perspectives meeting I reported to
you that we had met with Edwin Mulder, the Executive Secretary of the Reformed
Church, and suggested to him that perhaps, rather than frantically trying to
rescue the Reformed Church in America, we ought to begin a process of orderly
dismantling. That was not an easy word for Ed to hear at that time. We met with
him again Monday because we have an annual executive review of our work, and
the mood was different. Ed suggested that it may be a few years away but, all
things being equal, a dismantling may be in store. I heard after he left he had just
announced his retirement in June of 1994. So I came home and wrote him a letter
and I congratulated him on his decision and affirmed him for his work, and then
said to him that I had noticed on election night that John Chancellor, the retired
elder statesman, seemed to have so much fun. He was so relaxed. Retirement has
a way of doing that to you, you know. When we are in the trenches and have the
harnesses on, we are so serious and have such a sense of responsibility.
Everything seems so heavy. Our creative juices can get all dried up. But there was
old Chancellor having a ball. And I said to Ed, “Now that you have announced, let
me suggest that the last eighteen months be the best you’ve ever had. Why don’t
you propose some outrageous thing? Why don’t you get the heads of the
denominations together, and suggest to all the giants that we dismantle and start
over? Why don’t you have a ball in this last eighteen months? Have fun! Be
outrageous!” Well, I will be interested to see how he responds to that. (Laughter)
But, that is where I began.
I am convinced that energy and resources and worry is poured into religious
institutions and structures in order to sustain yesterday’s answer, in order to
perpetuate anachronistic structures that do not bring together God’s people, but
actually keep us all separate in our respective boxes. The thing that needs to
happen at that think tank is not that we find ways to make our respective
institutions prosper, but that we find a way to transcend our respective
institutions in order that we might find a new energy and a new way to carry us
into the third millennium. Somebody has got to believe! Somebody’s got to say,
“Enough of business as usual. Enough of all of this fearful clinging to that which
once was legitimate and necessary.”
One of the issues that we will have in Perspectives next year has to do with
language, with God’s language. We have talked about that here. I picked up a
book on my way home - a book of excellent essays. One author asked whether or
not Christianity will be able to sustain itself in the future. She suggested that it
may well not make it for, if it doesn’t change, it will be to society too unrelated
and irrelevant to where life is really moving.”

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Some of you tease me as though I just like to rock the boat. Well, I do. Some of
you think that this is just a game. And, it sort of is, but I’ll tell you - deep down
there is something else operating. It is because I believe in God. It is because I
believe the Gospel. It is because I believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ is the hope of
the world and that we have in our traditions the richest resources that the world
so desperately needs, that I don’t want to see them just piddled away, written off
as though they are irrelevant and unable to meet the pressing needs of our day in
a world that is tearing itself apart - fractured and fragmented, hostile and
warring. We have so much to share with the world in terms of the love of God and
the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the Spirit of God that would make people
one - if only we could let go and trust God.
Dear friends, somebody has to believe. Maybe it’s you. You say, “But how can I
know?” And I say, “You can’t.” And you say, “On what basis do I plunge?” And I
say, “Trust God. Trust God. Trust – God.”

© Grand Valley State University

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