724 24 26018 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8cc8485abe744ebe9130e596b1e4f8e0.mp4 e1af8b3ea55553e61a949ab4e2d50417 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/cf77195b8b2a0a4233ed2e86f634d089.pdf fb0df7da45036f31b71985b2cff2bc84 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interviews Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Charles “Charlie” Mott Date of Interview: 05-16-1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 6] CHARLIE MOTT: There's an interesting aside about these nights operations we were out there waiting for the warning to take off they were coming and we discovered that we were all former Navy pilots and so just for the hell of it we started making believe we were taking off from the carrier, no action just on the radio. So we had our little fun and games some. FRANK BORING: Start from the beginning… CHARLIE MOTT: An interesting aside on these night operations one night we were on the alert and we were all carrier pilots and just for the hell of it we simulated a carrier to deck operation, take-off and landing, in the groove and all the rest of it. Some two months later I had a formal interrogation as a prisoner of war by the top Japanese intelligent officer, came from Saigon, and he interrogated me about the presence of an American carrier in the Indian Ocean. Fortunately he could not speak English, but he spoke French thru an Indian who spoke French and English and translated it into English for me so I could catch all the asides. We knew that the Japs were sitting on our frequencies. And I'm quite sure they were sitting on our frequencies and thought they had picked up an American carrier in the Indian Ocean. A phantom, but interesting. But after Japs desisted in their daylight attacks we in the AVG took the defense. If you are going to win a war in the air you are going �to get them on the ground. It is a primary axiom, we did it in the Persian Gulf. It is an axiom in the air combat aerial forces combat that if you can get them on the ground this is where you really make big money. At this point having achieved a degree of air superiority, certainly not supremacy, but superiority over Rangoon we started to go on the offense. Now the Japs has occupied Thailand, more or less the Thais agreed to under duress. A lot of people don't know it, but in March 1942 Thais declared war on us, we never declared war back because we never heard about it. The Japs had built so forward air bases as well as taking over some Thai air bases one of the forward air bases was almost on a direct line from Rangoon to Moulmein right almost on the border between Thailand and Burma. It was place called Meshot, which was a forward air base and the British had taken some pictures of it and lo and behold it was heavily populated with fighters. They requested that we attack it and Newkirk agreed. We were actually under a de facto operational control of the British at this time. Chennault had agreed to leave a squadron there to defend the Burma Road. And the British, of course, that was there area. I was acting, Newkirk wasn't there for some reason or other, so I laid the flight on and Tex had taken one and I decided this was mine so I set it up in a little different basis from the dawn attack idea, but to catch them at high noon with the faces in the mess bucket. There were 4 of us on this raid, while we are talking about the flight planning aspects, Tex came to see me and he allowed as how he ought to take the operation. He had been very successful. I said Tex, don't disagree with you very often, but I'm taking this. In other words, I was pulling rank on him. Tex went away unhappy, but I'll tell you I'll never argue with Tex again. Because this is the raid where I got shot down. The circumstances were that we took off in good style, there was the Bay of Bengal there and came over about 20 - 25,000 feet, there was a [?] base - visibility unlimited and spotted the field right on the nose and left two up top for top cover and we went down to strafe with the idea that after we had exhausted our ammunition why the other two would come down if there was no air opposition. We sure in hell caught them unawares �and made a normal strafing run at high speed, very low and as I approached the field I could see some people on it they were working at the end of the runway actually [?] it. Chennault had briefed me that the chances are the Japanese employed local laborers. So I didn't open fire on this party but instead fired right over their heads must have scared them to death. In the ready flight line where there were 4 fighters lined up I went 1, 2, 3, 4. And we sure as hell hit them. Then went looking around for places where they had [?] them around the field and found two and pulled up and another chandelle? found another pair and was making a run on them around 30 feet and going flat out it is going around 250 knots and just I opened fire something big happened. I picked up, you can hear rounds that hit you in an airplane, it’s like being inside of a dumpster someone hits it with a hammer particularly it is near you. But here is sort of a big bang and the engine quit cold. The normal reaction was oh, shit and I had it… I then started shifting tanks and working the waddle pump, checking the mags from one to the other and working throttle back and forth I even though in terms of doing a slow roll in terms of getting rid of some obstruction in the fuel line--nothing worked. Just dead stick. At this time, time had run out and nothing to do but get out -- nothing but jungle in front of me. I was beyond the edge of the field, not much, but beyond it. Pointed in the wrong direction. I pulled up rolled over and kicked down. And I can still remember the sight of the trees coming up at me, because the parachute was slow opening and all of a sudden it jerked it opened I hit the tree and came to a stop swinging like a big plum about 20-25 feet above the ground in this jungle giant. So there I was and I concluded that if I could just get on the ground it was going to be a fast Jap that caught me. I had my 38 and it wasn't far from the border. I thought I could evade. But I couldn't get out of my damn parachute. We were using Chinese parachutes which had quick release, you hit one thing here and the four straps would pop out. I did it. Nothing happened. Did it again, harder, nothing happened. And there I was. So I took the 38 and pointed, there a steel pin in it, pointed it at the lease and bang that sprung one strap loose. By this time I was �really exhausted and I was trying to climb out of the parachute when I just slipped out of it and hit the ground and that's when I really got bugged up, I got bugged up hitting the tree, but really bugged up when I hit the ground. I was just lying there, the airplane had hit about quarter, half mile away. I landed on my feet. When I hit the ground I lit on my feet and my right foot gave way because I jammed the bones together and I hit my right flank and fractured my pelvis somehow. At the same you time you know when you fall if you hit your hands real fast you can break your fall, well, I did that and my left hand just broke off a compound fracture and the bone stuck in the ground. And also when I collapsed I fractured a couple of ribs. I didn't feel any great sensation of pain, I was fully conscious. That's the way it is with serious wounds. I was just laying there then. The airplane... oh, incidentally, I had my gun in my hand and when I fell out and when I hit it got thrown about 15-20 feet away, but I wouldn't move. Meanwhile the airplane had lit quarter, half mile away and was on fire and there was ammunition in the bay still and occasionally it would go pop, pop. Well, I mentioned that everybody was parachute conscious and so were the Japs and somehow or other the word seem to get around that there had been a paratroop landing because the airplane was there and they had surrounded it and it was still fighting and they were shooting and evidently they got shooting at one another and there was a hell of a fire fight going on. Meanwhile, I was just lying there and never saw them. All of a sudden a Jap jumped out from behind a bush and stuck his bayonet in my fanny, not much and said something that sounded like "Oss". I shook my head and he jabbed me again and I tried to get up then he realized I couldn't make it. About that time the sergeant came up the rest of the operation there, some officers around, but they didn't show up yet. A bunch of about 15 Japanese came in they had their topees on their bayonets fixed they were running around me in circles like Indians did in the movies. This went on for a few minutes and then an officer came on the scene and a couple of them nipped out and cut down some big bamboo's there and took their pants off and may a field stretcher �and put me on it. We started out for the airfield. Got to the edge of airfield and I raised up to see what was going, like I could see the airplanes here and there Anyhow I never saw them as one of the Japs started beating me over the head with a bayonet, I think the dull end of the bayonet not the sharp end because he put some head cuts on me. But all he did was I was still completely conscious he relieved some of the pain. He was pulled off and then we went across the field and about that time the pants broke and I came up on the parallel bars they put me down in this tent that was evidentially the operations tent and they put some field dressing on my arm and bandages up my cuts and then they all stood around and looked at me hard eyed. Just looked at me. And said you're American. I said yes. They said do you shoot Japanese soldiers? I said no, I only shoot Japanese airplanes. Fortunately I hadn't opened fire on the gang on the end of the runway because there could have been some Japs in there. By this time they were busy on the telephone and they got orders from Bangkok to send this guy to Bangkok clearly. I didn't understand Japanese at that time. So with that they put me on a trunk and started driving me to a rail head. It was a rough road, bumpy, I passed out. Woke up and had a Japanese topee, a light sun helmet. It was over my face. I peeked up from under it and the tailgate was down the guard consisted of 4 guards plus a corp man had a first aid thing and he gave me a couple of shots of morphine on the trip. There [?] bayonets were out cutting straw, rice straw in a dry paddy. Holy smokes, they are going to burn me. But they all rushed around and put them in sheaves and put them in a big stack and lifted me up and put it in the bed of the truck and put me on top of it because their orders were to bring me back alive and they were afraid I wouldn't make it. So we bumped and bumped and bumped for hours I have no recollection of time, but we arrived at this station and after a couple of hours wait the train came in and I was on my way to Bangkok. Well, it took over 3 days to get to Bangkok and they were pretty miserable because I couldn't pee I was paralyzed, couldn't defecate either. It got to be pretty uncomfortable. Eventually I convinced the Japs that I ought to have some help in �making water they got a hold of a doctor and he helped the kidneys to function, but the bowels didn't move for a whole week. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Mott_Charlie_1991-05-16_v06 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Mott, Charles D. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-05-16 Title A name given to the resource Charlie Mott interview (video and transcript, 6 of 9), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of Charles Mott by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Charles Mott was a Flight Leader for the American Volunteer Group (AVG) 2nd Squadron "Panda Bears." Recruited from the U.S. Navy, where he served three years as a Dive Bomber pilot, he joined the AVG in 1941. During a mission over Thailand, he was shot down by ground fire and captured, severely wounded. He was placed in a POW camp along the River Kwai railway for 3 1/2 years and repatriated at the end of the war. He was the sole survivor of the four AVG pilots captured. In this tape, Mott describes the raid where he was shot down by the Japanese and injured upon landing when escaping his parachute, in addition to the experience of being discovered and taking a train to Bangkok. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7ebe63b4cfdb55809b89c64d9d3f305a.mp4 538e74d6ba618d1c4edd1b188edfacb7 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5c091b1b3963ffbaa561248b81c7e0ed.pdf 0b747ed0fae434e99cf18dcb52aa965b PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interviews Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Charles “Charlie” Mott Date of Interview: 05-16-1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 7] CHARLIE MOTT: Continuing on the trip down to Bangkok I spent it on a stretcher in the baggage car. There was an interesting visit by some Thai officers who spoke English they expressed the thought that they were very sorry to see you in this situation and I told them you are not half as sorry as I am to be in. Arrived in Bangkok after about 3 days and was taken to a Japanese hospital. Which actually turned out to be one of the buildings of Chulalongkorn University. Modern, concrete. And they put me a room and left me alone and I slept on thin futon and the normal Japanese hospital food which is quite different which is quite different from U. S. hospital food I can tell you. The Japanese had a philosophy that if you were in the hospital you weren't doing the Emperor any good and the name of the game was to get you the hell out of there as fast as possible and motivation was a part of it. They didn't go anything in particular for me but they left me alone. For example, I noticed when I arrived there that my arm was very poorly set. The Japanese were offering any traction so I decided I'd do it myself and I figured out what I wanted was rotary movement. These two bones they had to overlap wherefore the two critical things was to one keep them from knitting together so that all four were one big mass, keep the mobility there, the other was to make sure the critical dimension which is hate to say this but the bar stance with is having flat surface on the bottom so I took the split off and my cuts where the bone came thru pulled it back and it seemed to be clean so I got �this another couple of compresses put them on and then I lined it up my way, but with an overlap such as the two bones were separated. After a period of a couple of weeks it seemed to take hold and I had limited movement. The same way with the foot. The important thing was to be able to walk. You need this motion. And so for nights I slept with my foot up against the wall such that the foot was flat and the bone were in a plain instead of one here and one there and all sorts of stresses. It turned out that it wasn't a bad job because although I don't have the rotary motion on the right foot I could still work brake pedals on airplanes and for some years I passed the flight physical, no strain. The ribs healed, the pelvis seemed to be taking care of itself. The fact that my bowels were paralyzed was really painful and I talked I talked to the Jap doctor that had that particular ward and I was in there with the rest of the chaps only in a little separate room. I told him I needed an enema and he delegated a Japanese corp man, a medical troop, to give me an enema. So I laid on my side and he gave me an enema. Well, by this time it was over a week and there was considerable back pressure. So all of sudden there's a great gushing and boom it hit the wall. Corp man went off the deep end and he went rushing to get the medical officer and the medical officer came in and he spoke pretty good English and he said, you very bad soldier. In Japanese Army and he used this word, we do not defecate on wall. I was so relieved I could have received a beating at that time and felt happy about it. But anyhow that lasted for about 3 months and by that time I was able to stand on my feet and take a couple of steps so they moved me out of the hospital and they put me in with some 3 other prisoners. Actually right at the Burma Army Headquarters in Bangkok. Which was then located in a former Catholic Girls School and we were right above the guard house. The second floor. There were 4 of us. There was a British resident from Victoria Point, which is the southernmost town in Burma. His chief of police and a stray policeman. They were Burma British, full Burma and then the American. They would let us out to take a walk around the compound there daily in the afternoon. They were using this as a troop barrack so there were a lot of troops there and �there was a three stories with porches inside facing the compound. I could hear these Japs talking you shoot him he Burmese, no shoot, too bad. Anglo Burmese don't know. So we were training aids. Meanwhile there was no physical abuse or torture or anything like that. The average Japanese guard was a pretty friendly type and we would break him down over a period of a couple of weeks. After all it is not very comfortable being in a full uniform with leggings, heavy boots on a hot night. Now we are approaching summer season. So the Japs would change the guard every two weeks and put a fresh bunch in there. I began to learn Japanese simply by talking to the guards who all wanted to try out their Japanese -- it was pretty boring to go in there and they maintained their guard in a sort of ante place and then we had the place where we slept. One morning a Jap pilot came and he had typical leather, big pouch they carry when they are carrying a message and he spoke very good English. And he came up and announced that he had come to take me to my friends. I said well, I am very happy. He said and I wish you a pleasant life. We that we marched out and got in a truck. This is just backtracking a little bit but when the Japs captured me they took all my clothes and when it came time for me to be released from the hospital I got new clothes. Now the American ambassador was still in residence, his name was Mr. Peck. He knew I was there it had been in the newspapers. Japanese you know weren't set up to buying clothes for prisoners. They simply went to Mr. Peck and asked him to send some money to outfit this American they are holding. And he did, he sent 50 [?] then that was [?] 25 cents. With that the Japs went out and bought me a nice blue Arrow shirt , some Chinese business man pants and Chinese underwear some thin socks and nice pair of Florsheim type shoes--high class, of course I couldn't get in them, because my foot was all swell up out of shape. That was my uniform and I asked the Jap officers why did you buy these civilian clothes? I'm a military prisoner. They replied, if we buy soldier clothes Japanese troops will shoot you. So, that's a good logical explanation. So anyhow we got on a train and we went down to the main station and it was feeling of getting back into civilization. People were �going about their business. One very attractive French girl and made a mission to find out who I was. She kind of eased up and said a few words in French and I was able to pass on my name and I never heard anything about it. Then the Japs got up on a huff and chased her away. Train came in and we got in this coach. A day coach. We had a seat. In front of us were a lot of Thai prisoners. I asked who are they? Bad Thai man. At that time one of them turned around, he didn't have any teeth, [?], ugly looking thing, shackles, I said where we going--same place. No, no different. We got to a place called Ban Pong which is sort of down the main line railway with Singapore about 70-80 miles. Train stopped and we got off. I could see some troops in Australian hats working along the railroad and they were shifting ties and doing coolie work. The Jap escorted me into what turned out to me the British POW camp. There I was turned over to the British. I became a British POW for the rest of the incarceration until very late. So that was the end of the story of the AVG'er got shot down on the 8th of January. I stayed in there this Ban Pong was the eastern terminus of the infamous River Kwai railway. I worked on that for 3 1/2 years. An interesting aside on this period when I was kept with these 3 other British subjects on the second floor of the guardhouse. Right over the fence was Bangkok, private homes, they played their radios very loud. There was an English broadcast. They started out the news broadcast every night by playing the Thai national anthem and then the news came on in English. So I knew exactly, in general of course, what was happening. That we had set up a defense that Rangoon had fallen, that we had set up a defense for the help of the Japanese around Toungoo. Then another series of battles up around the oil fields. While I was captive there at the Burma Army Headquarters on the second floor above the guardhouse I could hear the radios from the civilian houses =. The rear headquarters of the Burma Army was in Bangkok and I was held in the guardhouse of the Japanese Army headquarters there in Bangkok. The fence was just behind the guardhouse and I could hear the radios in the civilian houses just over the fence. Every night there was a news broadcast preceded by the playing of the �Thai national anthem. The news broadcast was in English so I knew that during this period and now we're talking about something like March that we'd managed to patch together a defense with the help of the Chinese army around Toungoo and then later on up around the oil fields at United Young ?. I could follow that now when I left there and that period lasted for 3 months I totaled 6 months after I was shot down. I was in with the British prisoners and because I was in charge of the POW motor pool we had one truck for every 600 prisoners or actually 55,000 white men plus 100,000 coolies building a railroad along the River Kwai. The British called it the death railway because about 1/3 died and went out the hard way. But I survived because as long as you are on the line of supply you are not going to starve to death anyhow and we were also in the position to steal from the Japanese which we did liberally. When you could get 16 pickles a gallon by bleeding the emperor. So every chance we could we did, but don't get caught. Disastrous to get caught. The news I hear in Bangkok, course it helped me in spirits in the sense that it appeared that the Japs could be stopped on the ground because they hadn't been stopped anywhere. Guadalcanal was under way but it was still a bloody battle. Every place else, Philippines, Indonesia, Malaya, they just walked thru. And this was very encouraging of course then that defense failed and we had the great Stillwell walkout and it was all over in Burma until the 2nd battle of Burma in '44 and '45. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Mott_Charlie_1991-05-16_v07 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Mott, Charles D. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-05-16 Title A name given to the resource Charlie Mott interview (video and transcript, 7 of 9), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of Charles Mott by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Charles Mott was a Flight Leader for the American Volunteer Group (AVG) 2nd Squadron "Panda Bears." Recruited from the U.S. Navy, where he served three years as a Dive Bomber pilot, he joined the AVG in 1941. During a mission over Thailand, he was shot down by ground fire and captured, severely wounded. He was placed in a POW camp along the River Kwai railway for 3 1/2 years and repatriated at the end of the war. He was the sole survivor of the four AVG pilots captured. In this tape, Mott describes his difficult recovery period in the Japanese hospital in Bangkok and later being a prisoner of war at the Burma Army Headquarters before becoming a British POW. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6ce87abf97ede7bc09549b66fb0969dc.mp4 093e898c96970496a0642b01d36acdce https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b4d7a029d7fbbe48352674ea9066751f.pdf 724ee76c636af4cf9ace6b509184e197 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interviews Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Charles “Charlie” Mott Date of Interview: 05-16-1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 8] CHARLIE MOTT: When I arrived at the Japanese Headquarters of the Burma Army in Bangkok I could listen to the civilian radio, Bangkok radio so I was aware of what was happening in general, but remember, that news was censored. No there was no specific news about the AVG because they were the hostiles and they were bad news to the Thais. The Thais declared war on us in March so we were hostile. At the same time there's enough shall we say frankness that it was clear that there was fighting going on around Toungoo that involved Chinese troops as well as British troops that had been reinforced. Rangoon had fallen. Some resistance there. It was also clear that the Japs had finally prevailed. We had evacuated into India and China. Later on and I'm talking the period when I was working along the River Kwai with the British I was part of the British espionage system. The British were great spies. Because of my position of being able to get around on trucks. We actually had a secret radio which was punishable by death a couple of times. My job was to transmit that information to the camps up and down the river. Now, news is a great hunger. People have a great hunger for news--good news in particular. When prisoners of war are deprived of it, it has a very bad morale effect. On the other hand when they get news and know what's going on particularly if it is favorable it can buoy their hopes it is a great morale booster. Of course we hit our nadir there when the Philippines surrendered. And from then on it was all generally good news so it helped the �troop’s morale. We had to be very careful about distribution because the Japs had a nasty habit of eavesdropping under the eaves of the hut and listen and if anybody mentioned any news the police would come and grab him and asked who told you. And they would go right down the line. Now each guy would hold out for maybe a week or so or maybe just a day and they would get to the source. We always had a cover story. There was a newspaper printed in Bangkok in English and of course there was a [?] which is an English paper printed in Japan. One case where they caught the guys red-handed with a radio which is peanut can about this big. We were able to keep the source open. FRANK BORING: At this point if we could --- your opinions and emotions, too, of Claire Chennault. CHARLIE MOTT: There's no doubt about it Chennault had charisma. But not in the sense of being a spellbinder, great speech maker and all the rest of it. It was certainly dedicated and he transmitted that to you. He knew what he was talking about when he talked about the characteristics of Japanese airplanes. He instructed us in detail on the contents of the Japanese tactical manual. Every using some of the terms that they used. For example, the area behind the tail where a fighter gets on your tail you're in deep yogurt. The Japanese tactical manual calls it the death area. Sort of like our troops call things the killing zone. He was certainly determined. He had a sense of humor, but he didn't show it very often. He was not in good health. He smoked too much. He already had symptoms of what killed him in '58, lung cancer. And he was subject to bronchitis and in fact during the initial battles there over Rangoon he was never there he was sick in Kunming. Not bedridden, but sick. Chennault also had one bad ear, I forget which one it was. Ed Rector mentioned that he gruff exterior but he really had a heart of gold. He somehow either intrinsically or he picked it up he had the oriental trait that the Japanese have and the Chinese have of that attitude is extremely important. You know you can pull an [?] crime, but if you apologize for it and say well I won't do it again, I �see the light, you've convinced me, they'll forgive you. Chennault had that characteristic. He tolerated things that normal sundowners, straightliners, Army regular officer would never tolerate. Chennault was extremely loyal. He expected loyalty up and you certainly got loyalty down. If you once one of his boys you were his boys for life. I know when I came back after the war Chennault was quite busy setting up the [?] of our operation and doing other things. He had offices there in [?] in the Washington Hotel across from the Treasury Building in Washington. Chennault always had time to talk to his boys. Shortly before he died I was over in Taipei on business when I was the Plans Officer for Navy Task Force 72 which was naval component commander of the Taiwan defense force. An Admiral by the name of Arty Doyle, whom I had known previously was the vice admiral resident on the island and commanded Taiwan defense command. Arty passed the word that he wanted to talk to me and I came in and made the appropriate greeting and who was sitting on the couch but General Chennault. It was just like it was 30 years before. I said General I forget which is your bad ear (I think it was the right one) so I got to the right side and we reminisced. He always had time for his boys. I know of no other senior officer who could have done the job he did. Jack Newkirk, Scarsdale Jack, as the newspapers named him was a competent pilot. He came from the east coast, I forget which carrier I think Yorktown. He was in fighters. Personable. I got to know him pretty well on the way over on the Jaegersfontein. Consequently he was my nominee for what was to become the second squadron or the Navy squadrons. We had Navy pilots scattered thru the other squadrons. In fact the majority of the pilots were Navy pilots if you include the Marine Corps which is part of the Navy. Jack did a credible job. He and I got along pretty well until we got to Rangoon and then Jack started to socialize with the British and they'd fly in with the booze and Jack would come back late at night wanting this done and that done and I said Jack --No, Way. At the time I said it that became a point of issue. The next �morning he disappeared. But then Jack was a dedicated guy he pressed the attack too hard and he got killed. FRANK BORING: Background on Greg Boyington CHARLIE MOTT: Well, Greg Boyington was a trouble maker. I knew him remotely I actually knew who Greg Boyington was at North Island a relatively small group. We didn't really fraternize much with the Marine pilots, but they were there and we meet them and of course some my classmates in flight school were Marines so I got to have drink with them when occasionally. We lived on a street there in Coronado and as it turned out Greg Boyington marched by our front door in full regalia every morning on his way to catch his ride with somebody. Greg was putting on what I could call the chesty puller act. You know chesty puller the swaggery Marine. Actually a good general. He appeared to be trying to emulate him. So I couldn't resist it if I happen to be there waiting for my car pool to arrive and Greg would come by I'd give him the old Marine Corp hymn. And Greg didn't like it. Greg had a reputation for being a real hard-boiled guy, but he didn't bother me. Nothing every came of it. I asked about Greg and Greg was you know at the bar he had 2 drinks, he was married and the marriage wasn't working out and he had a judgment against him and he wouldn't pay it and that was [?] and so he was just in a personal situation where number one the Marine were glad to get rid of him and two he was creating a new environment, but actually he took his trouble with him. Well, let's start in at the beginning. When I signed up for the AVG I was convinced that one of two things was going to happen. It was going to be a howling success or a dismal failure, nothing in between. And when I got there I didn't change my mind but I thought until we got in action there was strong possibility that it was a dismal failure. Because you tend to create hobgoblins out of the bad things that happen even though fortunately human beings are naturally optimistic and they remember the good things. As it turned out circumstances were such and the abilities of the guys �were such that they became heroic and of course there is always gratifying to be one of the original members of Lafayette Escadrille, when though if you read their history you'll find out that they weren't all great characters at all. So it's personal satisfaction while that I had that experience and also that I had friends like Ed Rector who become part of my life and will be right until the very end. So it has always been a source of satisfaction to me, personal satisfaction that I was able to go thru the experience although certainly not the whole way. I recognize the fact that in many respects I went thru the good part. Because later on we lost more airplanes, we got run out of Burma and there was more friction and I missed that. After the war and after my wife and I were reunited. Chennault made me an offer to come back to China and chose not to accept it after talking to the wife because I had enough of that and so had she. So I chose to go back into the Navy and see if I could still fly airplanes. I went thru all the hoops and hurdles. In those days if you came back to the Navy as a POW you were no hero--question was what the hell did you do wrong? In my case, you were supposed to come back after a year not 4 years, what the hell have you been doing? We had a bunch of us about 70 actually that went thru refresher training, went thru all the [?] just fast. Went thru it fast because various training units were glad to get rid of us because we weren't too cooperative. We insisted that were 1 qualified and two senior. Such as when you get out of an airplane the instructor gets out first. Well, we soon changed that custom. Age and experience rank has its privileges, wait until I get out. This didn't go over so big with these instructors, but we pulled it off. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Mott_Charlie_1991-05-16_v08 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Mott, Charles D. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-05-16 Title A name given to the resource Charlie Mott interview (video and transcript, 8 of 9), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of Charles Mott by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Charles Mott was a Flight Leader for the American Volunteer Group (AVG) 2nd Squadron "Panda Bears." Recruited from the U.S. Navy, where he served three years as a Dive Bomber pilot, he joined the AVG in 1941. During a mission over Thailand, he was shot down by ground fire and captured, severely wounded. He was placed in a POW camp along the River Kwai railway for 3 1/2 years and repatriated at the end of the war. He was the sole survivor of the four AVG pilots captured. In this tape, Mott discusses his respect of General Chennault and declining his offer to return to China after being reunited with his wife and going back into the Navy. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a8e13ed4cb69e45d9430eddf5687335d.mp4 46d2eefa455f6fdf6e175c06fe686130 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/fb230ca8cc7764ecd909081344866569.pdf e91006b64adecb97edbdc213fb1102ad PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interviews Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Charles “Charlie” Mott Date of Interview: 05-16-1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 9] CHARLIE MOTT: In summation, in retrospect, the question of the enduring contribution of the AVG I think is important. I recently read these papers that were circa about September 1941. I don't think that there is any question that what the AVG saved China from collapse. The messages from the Chinese were full of you might say boogey men but I don't believe so. They were helpless against Japanese invasion of the Yunnan Province culminating in taking Chumai [?]. The only reason it didn't happen was they had bigger fish to fry, i.e., they opened up World War II in December. They were very vulnerable, but the fact that the AVG was there and available served as a deterrent. Not only a deterrent to the Japanese but hope for the future of the Chinese. Relative to the effect on America course not many people remember those dark days when the fleet was sunk and burned in Pearl Harbor, battles on Savo Island, the loss of the Philippines, Bataan surrender, Bataan death march, the surrender of Corregidor, the fiasco of the British in Malaya, the fall Java, Indonesia, the Dutch East Indies, all these just happened like that in a period of 3 months. The only real ray of hope was the fact that the AVG proved that the Japanese could be beaten. They could be stopped. That they weren't supermen. That it was done by the AVG is I think is unique I think that group of men whether they were AVG or regular Army or regular Navy would have done the same thing. �FRANK BORING: That's an interesting point to stop. Let's put into context what has been said about you and the newspaper, Time Magazine, Life Magazine and all that kind of stuff. CHARLIE MOTT: Flying Tigers is a popular name which was inflicted on the AVG. However, it is descriptive the tiger is a [?] in Chinese, old tiger you know. So it is an honorable title as far as the Chinese go. They picked it up. I think it is coupled with the distinctive shark configuration - painting. It glamorize something and provoked interest of people into what really happened. Anybody can doll up an airplane and put out a lot of propaganda, but it is what is behind it. Some economic analysis has been made of the cost of Flying Tigers and every one that I've seen concludes that if you want to wage a war this is the way to do it. Small, competent, professional force. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Mott_Charlie_1991-05-16_v09 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Mott, Charles D. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-05-16 Title A name given to the resource Charlie Mott interview (video and transcript, 9 of 9), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of Charles Mott by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Charles Mott was a Flight Leader for the American Volunteer Group (AVG) 2nd Squadron "Panda Bears." Recruited from the U.S. Navy, where he served three years as a Dive Bomber pilot, he joined the AVG in 1941. During a mission over Thailand, he was shot down by ground fire and captured, severely wounded. He was placed in a POW camp along the River Kwai railway for 3 1/2 years and repatriated at the end of the war. He was the sole survivor of the four AVG pilots captured. In this tape, Mott discusses the enduring contribution of the AVG and the sense of hope the Flying Tigers gave the Chinese people during that time. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/abc1b9e0663d6d1799d54bb98fbd7a0d.pdf 27216343478c24ac3c69e8f62d997f49 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project World War II Len Motyka (25:22) Background Information (00:15)       Born In 1925 in Detroit, Michigan. (00:17) Highest rank was Technician 5th Grade. (00:20) He attended a catholic school for 8 years and then attended Cleveland High School in Detroit. (00:50) Len knew he would be drafted, so instead of being drafted he enlisted in 1943 in the U.S. Army. (1:45)] Len had some uncles who were in the army. (2:10) He wanted to go into the Navy, but instead was placed into the Army. (2:44) Basic Training (3:05)      He attended basic training in Texas. Here he was placed in an antitank unit. He was then made a machine gunner and then placed into a mortar squad. Len had 14 weeks of basic training. He was then sent to Baltimore, Maryland. (4:08) When traveling across the Atlantic, most men, including Len, got sick. (4:27) Len landed in Marseille, France. (4:47) Military life was very strict but Len under stood their reasoning for it. (5:15) Service in Europe (5:43)          He severed in the 63rd Davison in the 7th Army under General Patton [Patch]. (5:44) Len did meet Patton at one point in his military career. (6:29) Len and his unit traveled through the countryside taking one village and town at a time. The unit moved until reaching Germany. (7:00) He was asked to place the bayonet on his rifle at one point. Fortunately the German forces retreated and he did not need to engage in hand to hand combat. (7:52) He did not form close friendships with the men he was serving along side. (8:57) Several times, someone would have cookies sent to them. When this happened, the men often shared them. (9:15) To pass free time while in the field, Len and his fellow soldiers would play card games or pick up sports games. (10:34) One of Len’s friends who were higher up on command stole an accordion for him to play out of a shop in France. (11:45) Len served for 3 years in the military (1943-1946). (12:05) End of Service/ Life after Service (12:51)  Len found it difficult to readjust to military life. (12:45) �    Len’s parents separated while he was in Europe. He stayed with his mother when he returned home. She was very happy when he returned home. (13:45) He kept in contact with his army friends when he returned home. As time passed he lost contact with them. (14:30) He is a member of the VFW. (15:00) Len was awarded a quarterly guard. He was almost given a Purple Heart after an altercation in a bunker. (15:10) Effects of Service (16:25)     He was very nervous for some time after returning from his service. (16:30) Len does not like to talk about his military experience because of all the killing he saw. (17:10) When the men entered towns, he recalls given people his chocolate bars who looked like they were starving to death. (18:25) He believes that having his military service was a very good experience. (19:20) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context MotykyaLT Title A name given to the resource Motyka, Len (Interview outline), 2011 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Motyka, Len Description An account of the resource Len Motyka, born in 1925 in Detroit Michigan, served in the U.S. Army from 1943-1946 in Europe during World War II. Len was trained to be a mortarman. When he arrived in Marce France, he was assigned to a Mortar unit within the 63rd Davison in the 7th Army. He then spent most of his tour traveling across France into Germany taking town after town. He was discharged in 1946. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Buechman, Timothy (Interviewer) Caledonia High School (Caledonia, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings United States. Army World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-05-22 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/920bb8cbede8bc3a9b09c0199d25c8f4.pdf d9dffa756dc753846e7763b83aab870b PDF Text Text Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department Esther Moul Interview Interviewed by Alan Moul May 26, 2016 and May 29, 2016 Transcript AM: This is Alan Moul, I'm here with Esther Gilliland Moul, who happens to be my mother. The date is May twenty-sixth, two thousand sixteen, which happens to be my anniversary. This oral history is being collected as part of the Growing Community Project for Oceana County. And I'm going to have my mom talk about her earliest memories and the first Gilliland's in Oceana County. Mom? EM: Thank you! My plan is to tell the early and the transitional history of our Gilliland family farm, which ended by being a centennial farm in Hart, Michigan. Since history is my hobby and because I have inherited and gathered far more information than can be told on tape, I want everyone listening to this to know that they can certainly find much more detail, both genealogy and history, because I am currently writing our family history with a lot of detail. And that will be at the Chadwick-Munger House, headquarters of the Oceana County Historical Society. AM: Could you spell your name for us so we make sure we get it right? EM: Esther, E-s-t-h-e-r. A lot of people leave out that “h.” May, M-a-y. Gilliland is G-i-l-l-i-l-a-n-d. And then my married name is Moul, M-o-u-l. AM: Okay, thank you. Alright. AM: Okay. EM: Harvey (H-a-r-v-e-y) Hunter (H-u-n-t-e-r) Gilliland, my great-grandfather - great-great-grandfather was the first Gilliland in Oceana County. He moved here from western Pennsylvania in 1873 with his wife, Martha, two daughters, Clara and Elizabeth, and a son, my grandfather, Clayton, who was six years old at that time. He also brought with him his mother, Mary. He had formerly been working on the Erie Canal as a driver on the towpath. But the Erie Canal was going out of favor because the railroads were coming in and I assume that that could be what prompted him to leave that occupation. I also think that he probably had a connection to the Garwoods [?] who were already here in Oceana County, that may be who prompted him to move here. There was a Mr. Garwood, who was a blacksmith, and the Gillilands and the Garwoods [?] were closely related in western Pennsylvania where he came from. My great-great-grandfather rented farm property out south of Hart, near what we call now Star Hill. And my grandfather, Clayton, and his sister started attending the little rural Van Wickle School. They moved into town after the kids graduated from the eighth grade. And great-great-grandpa Harvey was a wheelwright and he also did building moving. He was also involved in community affairs. He was an avid hunter. Everybody talked about how he had to go hunting and fishing every year. He lived on two lots in Hart. And it is amusing to me that now I'm living in an apartment overlooking Hart Lake and he's buried right at the top of the hill overlooking Hart Lake, overlooking his... what he called his fishing hole. And that was at his request; he wanted to be buried over his fishing hole. AL: Alright. 1 �Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department EM: Harvey's daughters eventually married local men, but they moved out of Michigan, but my grandpa, Clayton, stayed and decided to be a farmer. He bought the first twenty acres of our farm in 1889 and built a small house and then married a lovely girl, Mary Trommater, from Elbridge in 1891. Sadly, Mary died in pregnancy. I'm sure he was grief stricken and there are several silent years that we know nothing about. I have many of Mary’s keepsakes that were in an old trunk in our attic. But eventually he got a new lease on life and in 1894 he married Rose Moore, a local girl who was a housekeeper for a local businessman. And she was the daughter of John Moore, who was in the sawmill business out east of Hart. Then in 1909, both of Clayton's parents died, and so he inherited his father's building tools, moving tools, and for a while he would move buildings or rent out the tools. He also began to plant fruit trees on his twenty acres. And it's interesting, instead of planting a whole orchard like we do now of one variety, he would plant one or two trees of many varieties, trying out to see what they liked, I guess. And one of those trees is still standing in the front yard, the old russet tree. He also planted several sweet cherry trees and some pear trees. EM: I was born in 1931 in a snowstorm. They tell me that the doctor had a hard time getting there; he had to wallow through the drifts, but my dad held the lantern. They didn't have electricity and he was quite at ease because he'd held the lantern for delivering calves in the barn many times, so it didn't seem to faze him. Our house was a wood frame house. We call it - for places of reference - we call it the North House, which is gone now. There was no indoor bathroom. There was a water tank upstairs. The pump at the well outside, there was a gasoline engine that pumped and it would pump the water up to that water tank upstairs and then it would go by gravity drainage down to the kitchen sink. So, there was very little water pressure. I remember we had kerosene lamps and I can remember when the phone came; we finally got our first telephone and I remember when electricity - the REA [Rural Electrification Act] - finally came. And I was expected as a good farm girl to pick fruit in the summertime, which I did not like. I ran barefoot through the orchards and I loved to collect rocks and play with pretty flowers and things. I wasn't much interested in working, but if I wanted to earn a bike, I had to. I got very tan. I enjoyed the outdoors a great deal. I loved to climb trees. My mother always had a big garden and did lots of canning. The folks went to market in Muskegon, usually three times a week during the productive summer months, and that was a lot of work, getting things packed up one day and then spending the next day on the market and hoping to sell everything, so you didn't have to come home wondering what to do with the leftovers. AM: Did you go down and come back the same day? EM: Oh yeah, we went early in the morning while it was still dark and usually could leave by 2:00 or 3:00 in the afternoon. We sold not only to the local people in Muskegon, but to the stores. The stores would come and they'd look over all the farmer's wares and see which farmer they could get the best price and the best product. And I still remember some of the names of the stores in Muskegon. Balkan's [?] was one that regularly bought from us and we actually became good friends. AM: Now, at this point, you had a vehicle, right? You had a car? EM: Yes. They moved up first to a model A and then a little pickup truck. AM: Okay. 2 �Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department EM: Yeah. Like I say, a lot more detail in what I'm actually writing that will be available for people to read at the Historical Society because there's so much detail. When we lived in the North House, as I've mentioned, my mother’s sister, Alice, who was a polio victim and had to walk with crutches and braces, came to board with us part-time because she was a bookkeeper at Hawley’s Nursery just down the hill on the corner where the... AM: The King funeral home. EM: ...the funeral home is now, yeah. But Hawley’s Nursery was a big nursery in the area; supplied the farmers with most of the fruit trees and ours. And they had a daughter, Ruthie, and Ruthie and I played together a lot. EM: I'm thinking more about the basement of the north house, how my folks, probably great grandpa, helped them, insulated the north end of it in the basement, and that became a storage room, it was well-insulated, and they would store apples in there. And then that was used for a packing shed. Back then, fruit was shipped out of the depot in Hart to heaven knows where, I don't remember. Also, it went by boat from the early days from Pentwater and later days from Ludington, but there was a lot of shipping of fruit for quite some time. Another thing that I just thought about was the indoor market in Muskegon. Most of my memories are of the outdoor market in the summertime, but there was a winter indoor market. So, I think we probably took some of our apples there in the winter and that was not at the same location, and I just can't remember where it was. But I know there was an indoor market and I remember vividly that I didn't like to go because we had to get up early in the morning and stay most of the day to sell the fruit. And so, my mother taught me all kinds of little games and poems and read books to me and anything she could do to entertain me. So, some of those things I used on my grandkids and later life because my mother taught me so many of those little things that stayed with me. AM: So, you would sit there with your produce and sell it and then pack up what was left and come back home? EM: Yep. AM: Okay. EM: I'm guessing that on the way back we probably stopped at my dad's sister's places; they lived in Whitehall and Rothbury and probably gave some leftover fruit. That would be like my parents and my grandpa to want to do that, and I know that periodically we did give them fruit. So, I would guess that the leftovers probably went in that direction. AM: I remember Grandpa, I always couldn't figure out why Grandpa had the worst stuff in the house to eat. And I would ask him, “Grandpa, why do we have all these bruised and wormholes [apples]? And he said, “Well, the good stuff, I sell at market.” So, we ate the bad stuff. EM: That's right. Okay, my grandma, Rose Gilliland, died in nineteen thirty-nine. So, I'd like to say some of my memories about her because sometimes when my folks went to market, they'd let me go and stay with grandma. And grandma had a Victrola and that was a real new thing. There were no record players back then; it was a Victrola where you had to wind it up and play these old records. And so, she would 3 �Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department play her records for me and they were mostly really just records. Her favorite one? I'll think of it in a minute. She also... I have vivid memories of her sitting on the basement steps, washing and polishing eggs and putting them in the carton to sell. And like I said, she didn't go to sell her eggs. She went to trade and she'd come home with something in exchange for the eggs. “I Need Thee Every Hour” - that was Grandma's favorite Victrola song. She played that over and over again for me. AM: I've got a question: being that they bartered, was there ever any... do you ever remember any discussion or disagreement over what they were going to barter and bring home? Or did Grandpa always have the final say? EM: I don't remember anything like that. The one vivid memory I do have is of Grandpa starting out of the yard with a model egg to go to town and grandma discovering that he'd forgotten something. And she screamed and screeched and tried to get him to stop and she could not make him hear her. She did not have a delicate voice. [Laughter] I loved my grandma very much, but it was hard for me to see her suffer with cancer. And oftentimes, then at that time, they would send me over to the other grandma's house in Mears - Grandma Auger’s house in Mears - to stay because it would be too hard for me to watch my grandma in bed going downhill until she died. On the day she died, I got sent across the road to the Walkers, our neighbors, the Walkers, to have supper with them and they were good friends. They had five kids and they were my playmates. And Ethel Walker had made scalloped potatoes and I loved scallop potatoes, but I got one bite in my mouth and she had used pepper and my mother never used black pepper. And I choked and coughed and I remember how I wondered what in the world was wrong with those potatoes. But those are my memories of my Grandma Gilliland for her short life. AM: And what was her first name again? EM: Rose. AM: Rose, okay. EM: Rose, yeah. AM: One more thing about the Garver School. For a more comprehensive story of the school, I've written a little booklet, “Once Upon a School.” So, it’s at the Munger House headquarters; it can be read there. Now about our neighbors across the road, the Walkers across the road from my grandparents. Mrs. Walker was a Hasty and Sherman Hasty was her father. And he's the one that built our fruit picking ladders. We want to be sure and mention his name here. He was well-known. He moved into town in later life. But I wouldn't be surprised that he had something to do with the building of my grandfather's house because he was a builder. Also, Vern Walker, who lived in the house next[door] with his wife, Ethel Hasty Walker; Vern Walker was a farmer, too, there at the place. And he and my dad, one year at least, rented a good-sized truck and 4 �Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department packed up fruit and went to the Benton Harbor market. Benton Harbor was a big fruit market, and together they went to the Benton Harbor market. I don't remember that they did it more than one year, but they might have. But the Walkers were our good friends. I do remember an incident while we were still living over at the north house when we had a terrific thunderstorm. And my parents were very worried and we had big beech trees in the front yard. And I remember lightning struck a beech tree that night and you could smell - I called it sulfur - I don't know what it was, but I remember the awful smell and how worried that my parents were. Well, when children know that their parents are worried, they are doubly worried. And I remember I was afraid of lightning for years and years afterwards. And I think I was married before I finally could enjoy a good thunderstorm. EM: I may have already said, I don't know, in nineteen thirty-nine, my grandma died and it was a logical thing for us to move around the corner to live with Grandpa, to take care of the farm with him. My dad had already been spending all his days over there anyway working and so it was just logical. So, funny thing is I have no memory of us packing up and moving because I had been spending so much time there with my mother who was taking care of Grandma, that it just seemed logical for us to just be moving right on in. I remember the time of her funeral, how we went down the hill on 72nd Avenue to the cemetery, and how there was an odor of chicken feathers - burnt chicken feathers - in the air because there was Archer's Hatchery on that road and it had burned and oh, what a horrible smell - burnt chicken feathers. And I identify that time of her funeral with that fire. I said we moved around the corner to the house; I need to say that the house was double in size from when Grandpa had first built it because about nineteen twelve or so, as the kids were leaving home, as is often the case, he added onto the house and made it what it is still standing today. A much larger house. In nineteen eleven, the barn was built and my mother, who was living in the neighborhood just at that year, said she remembered coming over to play with Dorothy Gilliland and there was a pile of lumber waiting for the barn to be built. And here again, I never thought to ask who built that barn? I have no idea. It could have been a barn raising. I just don't know. Be sure to ask the questions that you can get answers to while your family is still living because you’ll have many regrets about the things that you don't know and wish you'd asked! AM: Now, did you mention anything about the kids were all leaving after getting out of school and now you had no one to pick the small fruits that they were growing? EM: Right, up until that time they had picked their own fruit, done their own harvesting along with relatives, the girls, my grandpa Clayton's sisters, Dorothy and LaVange [?] and Phyllis would come maybe for a day and pick. And maybe they had friends that would want to pick and so you could get local help. But as they increased the size of the farm and by the time my dad and mother and I moved around the corner to live with grandpa, they were starting to look at more acreage and eventually did add quite a bit to the farm. And so, labor became an interesting problem. AM: Now, we looked at the farm drawings and saw that they had strawberries, raspberries...currants... 5 �Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department EM: You can bet those came out when the kids left home. [Laughter] They didn't have their help anymore, so nobody wanted to do that kind of labor. And so, then he started planning fruit trees in earnest. There's a story I think my grandpa told me himself that Dr. Munger, who is known in Hart, used to be known as the Cherry King. He had more acreage than anybody at one time of tart cherries. That he and my grandpa, who were friends and I imagine my grandpa went to him for doctoring, as they would call it. He said, “how are your cherries doing, Clayton?” And my grandpa said, “doing pretty well, doing alright.” And Dr. Munger says, “I think I'll plant some cherries.” [Laughter] Makes a good story. Well anyway, he ended up being the primary cherry grower in Oceana County at one time. EM: I'm coming up to when I was about nine years old, and so these memories are going to be from that vantage point, nine, ten, eleven years old. So, I remember how, of course, as we… AM: ...it would’ve been around 1940. Yeah, as we got more acreage, more fruit coming into bearing, we had to have more labor. And so, like I said, we took cousins, neighbors and anybody that wanted to help. And one cousin, Doris in particular, loved to pick fruit. She was tall and I can still see her standing on top of a nine-foot ladder with only the tree branches for support, picking away, singing away. She loved it and she boarded with us in the summer to do that. And she was quite artistic and she loved to draw pictures of what she was doing. She came several years, as I remember, earned her school money that way, clothing and books and so forth. So right about that time, we were getting rid of our horses and cows. We had one team left, Dick and Nell, and out of deference to Grandpa Clayton, they still kept them and he'd do a little bit of cultivating with the two horses. And when it came haying time, because we still had several cows, and the horses needed hay. And when it came haying time, we had rented pastureland down the hill. That would be where my son Cal lives now in that field to the south. We would go in and get that hay, cut that hay, and I can remember the horses bringing in the hay up the hill. One of my favorite pictures of myself is standing on top of that load of hay. I used to love to just sit and watch the process of unloading the hay, how the horses would pull the ropes to raise the hay fork full of hay and swing it over into the hay mound and let it drop. And it took quite a while to unload the load of hay and then go back and get another load. AM: How they could back that wagon up, the horses would back it up. EM: Yeah, I loved to watch my grandpa hitch up the horses, too. I'm so glad that I have those memories because they're gone now. Kids don't see those kinds of things on farms unless they go to a museum farm. So, I'm glad I have those memories of haying time on the farm. I had older cousins who would come and stay summers with my parents, but they were soon drafted into the army. So there went some of our good help. There were local people, as I’ve mentioned, that would come and work. Teachers often liked to work on the farm in the summer because it gave them summer employment. Ivan Robinson was our old standby. He painted our house one summer and did other odd jobs around the farm. 6 �Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department AM: Didn't he end up being the principal of a school or something? EM: I think he might have; he was a teacher, yep. There were people we called drifters and I suppose maybe they were alcoholics. They just had that kind of temperament where they were just passing through and just wanted to earn a little bit of money and they would work and we hired some of them. We didn't have to house them at all. And by the way, back then there were no housing laws, no restrictions. If somebody wanted to come and pitch a tent in your yard and pick fruit, that was all right. We had young girls just with new driver's licenses that drove across the state to camp under our walnut trees in tents, and they became lifetime friends. They’d have parties in the barn at night and we just became really good friends. One man in particular, I think he just stopped in to see if we needed help and he became a family friend for many years. His name was Harlan, H-a-r-l-a-n, Parrish. He and his wife Mae came and we called him “Shorty.” He was a short man and he was the best hired man my dad ever had. He would do anything. He dragged the tractor. Oh, yes, we'll have to talk about the new tractor. He would, you know, whatever the day called for, he was up for it. And we housed “Shorty” in the barn and they didn't mind. They curtained off an area and we had an old bed with a mattress and a place to wash up. And of course, all the accommodations, bathroom accommodations were just outdoor privies at that point. And so nobody minded. It wasn't until the government agencies got involved and put restrictions on the farmers that things had to change. But people would start to come up from the south and people would come from Oklahoma and Arkansas. And you never knew where your help was going to come from. That was risky business to hope that there would be enough help to get your crop off. But it always worked out and there were good years and bad years. Some years there would be a heavy frost and you'd say, well, maybe next year will be a good year. So, talk about being in the gambling business. It sure felt like it, but things seemed to always work out. EM: I don't remember the year - but it's written down, so you can find it if you want to know - that we got our first tractor. It was a Caywood and that's an unfamiliar name now, but we were so proud of that tractor. And I remember how my dad practiced with that tractor and how he had to use it to pull a loaded truck up the hill and he was so proud that he was able to do that. Also, the name Eva Doedy [?] comes to mind, Eva Doedy [?] was a nurse at the Hart hospital and she was a corker, she loved to work and she loved the outdoors and she took her vacation and came and picked cherries every year. She’d take a bucket of water and put it at the bottom of her cherry tree and she'd wash her hands after she got through with every tree and she just treated it like a true vacation. And then I was reminded that in later years, she came back and helped my mother and me can cherries in the summertime. She truly loved farm life, and she was willing to spend her vacation time outdoors. AM: It sounds like in those years there was a lot more community involvement in the farms that just kind of was natural, which we are losing now, that doesn’t happen. EM: There was a saying by the businessmen in town, “if the farmer has a bad year, so do we.” The farmer couldn't buy the new couch or his wife couldn't get her new coat or whatever. Or the farmer couldn't buy a new truck or whatever. The economy was… everyone affected… everyone's success affected somebody in the community. 7 �Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department AM: What are your memories of tourism, as far as it related to the farming community in the [nineteen] forties? EM: People came through to the sand dunes, I remember the sand dunes, that was a big drawing card. People came just to see them and to climb on them. And there were little cabins. And now that people all had cars and were traveling, resorting was a big thing. I think that's some of what got my Grandpa and Grandma Auger to start their canning business, was for the resorters that came and just, oh, they just “oohed and aahed” for all the fruit over here and wanted to take some back with them. I'm moving into my teenage years now, and I'm remembering that the government was making jeeps, used army jeeps available to farmers to use in place of tractors if they needed a good utility vehicle, they could do some light farming with Jeeps. AM: This was before World War Two? Must have been World War One surplus? EM: No, this was World War Two… in the middle of the... or at the end of the war, I’m not sure. But I remember writing to school with the Walker kids across the road because they had bought one of the Army surplus jeeps and we could go through the snow in the wintertime when other kids couldn't get there. I remember the Normandy invasion talking about World War Two now, we were very deeply involved in listening to the radio, which we had a radio now and that was a big deal because we had cousins Harold and Norman Hoxton in the war and we kept track of the movement of the troops. And I remember sitting on my dad's lap with the map out in front of us watching, listening to the H.V. Kaltenborn [?] and other announcers talking about the Normandy invasion and were just really caught up in what was going on. At the school, the men were, of course, all going into the service and our high school principal was a woman that was quite new. Mrs. Frost was our high school principal, and one day she got up to the study hall and announced that we would all be collecting milkweed pods for the Kapok preservers for the army. And she brought the house down when she said, “the bags are in the office.” Well, back in those days us kids would call anybody in authority that we didn't care too much for an “old bag.” You know, so she said, “the bags are in the office,” but we yeah, we went out and harvested milkweed pods. We also went out… they would let school out for kids to go out and help with emergency crop harvest. I remember how I got my Social Security number and my dad and mother got theirs at the same time. The cherry harvest was on and the canning factories were getting plugged up with product and they couldn't handle it fast enough. So, they would tell the farmers, “don't bring us anymore for a while, come in and help us.” So, the farmers and their families would have to go in and help. But I remember I was on the sorting belt. My dad was emptying lugs into the water and I don't remember what my mother was doing, probably sorting. And that's how we all at the same time, my mother and dad and I got our Social Security numbers to help out. But the biggest excitement at that time, nineteen forty-four and five, were the German prisoners of war that were made available. They had captured them and brought them over here. And rather than just warehousing them, they put them to work. And according to the Geneva Convention, they were to be treated humanely. And we wanted to show that in America, we treat our war prisoners humanely. And so, we gave them work to do and whereas our troops were not always being treated humanely. Anyway, 8 �Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department we could sign up, a farmer could sign up for needing so many prisoners and my dad would take the pickup truck and go to the fairgrounds where they were housed in tents and pick up his quota for the day and a guard with a gun would come along and he was supposed to stand watching the prisoners at all times, but he would get very bored. And so, he would put his… lean his gun up against the tree and go to work, too. But it was interesting, as a teenager looking out at those men, I didn't feel like they were the enemy. They were there to help us. They were friendly, it was just different. They would kind of wave at me and smile. But we weren't supposed to communicate back and forth. And I couldn't talk German anyway. AM: Now, were there any Japanese prisoner of wars or do they stay on the West Coast? EM: No. AM: I'm not aware whether they helped or not. I think they were pretty much warehoused, it was a different situation. EM: No, I think so. They were in the internment camps. Yeah, no these were just... now there were at the same time some Jamaicans and some other people who came through that we'd never had before. It was kind of a trial period, they just took anybody they could get because the good men were gone. AM: And did they ever do any scrap metal drives just to scrap metal, scrap rubber, scrap paper. Everything went to the war effort. Even now, when I go down the expressway and I see where somebody's tire has blown apart and lying alongside the road, I have this urge to get out and pick it up because that's what we did. You just saved everything. Everything was rationed: sugar was rationed, tires were rationed, gasoline was rationed. But the farmer didn't have it so bad because the whole world, the soldiers, the troops depended on what the farmer could raise. And so, the farmer had to have what he needed to produce. So, we had what we needed. Interview Day Two – May Twenty-Ninth AM: This is Alan Moul, and I'm here with Esther Gilliland Moul. And this is a continuation of our tape from May twenty-sixth and today's May twenty-ninth. So, we're going to continue where we left off. EM: Well, I think we left off about when I was graduating from high school in nineteen forty-eight, I was a country girl headed for the big city. I wanted to be a nurse and my dad had said, “well, why don't you just go down to Muskegon, to Hackley Hospital?” And my mother wisely said, “she needs to get away.” And I've always been grateful that she had the foresight to send me to the big city. I left with several local girls for Oak Park, Illinois, West Suburban Hospital School of Nursing affiliated with Wheaton College, and was there for the next three and a half years. EM: I really, really loved Chicago. I loved to get on the elevator and go down and explore. Looking around the architecture, the buildings, the opportunities, things I'd never seen before. I really enjoyed it and I enjoyed the nursing experience, too. My boyfriend back home, Leonard Moul, M-o-u-l, had another year of high school to finish. And we kept in touch some, but gradually through the years when I was there, we kind of lost touch until the end of my training. 9 �Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department My parents were doing quite well on the farm and they started going to Florida in the winters and taking my grandparents, my grandpa Gilliland and my mother's parents with them. And that was nice, they had some freedom to travel. And with the new gales [?] in Hart, they took some pretty extensive trips to California and Texas and quite a bit in the southwest. And in nineteen forty-nine, I came home on vacation and found that my father had bought his first new car, brand new car, a forty-nine Kaiser. He was so proud of that - it was the first totally new car he'd ever had. So, I guess they were doing quite well with their farming, over the years they were gradually adding more acreage. Leonard would come up from Comstock Park and visit his sister in Shelby, Dr. Hasty's wife Beverly, and do yard work for her, and then he also did some carpentry work. That's where he learned to do carpentry work, was with Burmeister Builders out of Shelby. He graduated in nineteen forty-nine. In nineteen fifty-one, I graduated from nurses training and my folks gave me a bus trip to Florida and then I rode home with them. I went back to Oak Park and worked for a few months just to say that I had worked as a graduate nurse in my home hospital for a little while. But by then I was engaged to Leonard and we were beginning to plan a wedding. We were married in September nineteen fifty-two. Started out with a little house trailer in the driveway of my new sister and brother in law, Mark and June Dorn. Leonard was working at Sackner Products in Grand Rapids and I started working at Butterworth Hospital. Times were good. AM: Now, he was a machinist, is that correct? EM: He became a machinist. When he first started there, he drove a Hi-Lo and loaded trucks and they loved him because they said he could load a truck semi faster and better than anybody. But then he gradually moved up and became a machinist. He's also in the Michigan National Guard's. Deer hunting was big, big… hunting of all kinds was big with him. And he and his brother in laws had tented in the Upper Peninsula, and were making plans to buy some property up there and build a cabin. So, one of the first things I got to do was camp out and go deer hunting. I did it to please him, not because I had any desire to kill any animals. I took my gun with me. I learned how to shoot it, but I never killed a deer. But it was a nice vacation experience. This was before the Mackinac Bridge was built. So, we sat in long, long lines and my sister in laws would pack wonderful sandwiches and pies and things. And so, we ate while we sat and waited to go across the bridge. As I said, we were living in a little house trailer, but we wanted to get some land and Len, with his carpenter skills, wanted to build a house. And his boss at Sackner Products very conveniently gave him his house plans and so we used his house plans to build our first house. We bought two acres on Division Avenue just about a couple of miles from Walton and Donna Moul’s place; they lived on Six Mile Road on Division Avenue. Leonard started right away; as soon as we bought the property, we moved the trailer up there and started right in with the plans to build our house. And I was still working, so we were doing alright. I think we were each making about four thousand something a year. We still took our vacations to deer hunt. Grandpa and Grandma Moul were still living. They came over and watched the progress of the house. And I have a picture of Grandpa Moul driving a nail in the siding on the house. And he was so proud to be able to do some little thing that showed he was interested. But 10 �Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department sadly, he died in nineteen fifty-five and Leonard had to teach Grandma Moul how to drive. She had never driven a car, so he did - he taught her how to drive. EM: Back in Hart on the farm, my dad and mother seemed to be doing well, enjoying their winters and traveling and we were so involved in building our house, we weren't paying much attention to what was going on, on the farm back in Hart. So, we weren't thinking about their future very much. But, they certainly every year were getting one year older and wondering who is going to take over. I think my dad had always wished for a son, but that never happened. So, I remember at one time he mentioned that the house and farm across the road was for sale. Well, we sure weren't interested because we didn't want to live that close proximity to my parents. Didn't think that would be a good idea and we weren’t thinking about moving anyway. But we got our house built on Division Avenue and discovered in the process, we had to put down a very, very deep well. And we didn't like the water at all because we had... it was so hard that we had to buy a commercial water softener and that water tasted terrible coming out of that commercial water. We just didn't like it at all. Then some other houses started going up around us and that troubled us a little bit because we had envisioned living out in the country without too many neighbors. And so, we started looking around a little bit. And I'm getting ahead of myself because in nineteen fifty-six, I discovered I was pregnant, and so I thought, well, I should be getting more domesticated and I needed to make some curtains for the baby's bedroom. And so, we were looking at a sewing machine in Grand Rapids and when we got home, the sky began to get really dark and strange and I had never seen that kind of weather. And the upshot was we saw our first tornado and Leonard had to go out with the National Guards and help with that. My neighbor down the hill and I got to stand in our living room window and watch the tornado go through, and that was pretty exciting. AM: When would that have been, like, May of nineteen fifty-six? EM: Yeah, yeah. AM: Around Easter you said, wasn't it? EM: I think so. AM: So earlier. EM: Yeah, the sky turned all yellow, just like a dandelion, it was just yellow. You never saw anything like it. Our friends, Ruth and Ron Bullis [?] lost their trailer in the storm and ended up building a house, becoming our neighbors. Anyway, in October, Alan Lee was born and I stopped working at the hospital. Soon after, I found out I was pregnant again and Bradley Ray joined our crowd. By then, we were really disenchanted with where we were living and started looking around a little bit at property. And we still took our vacations up north, went fishing up... by then, the guys had built a cabin on some property in the Upper Peninsula outside of Munising and we took vacations up there. And Leonard still went deer hunting, and I did too, because Grandpa and Grandma Gilliland were only too happy to have a couple of boys come and stay with them. And that was nice that they were accommodating. 11 �Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department Then in nineteen sixty-one, February, Calvin John was born and, in the meantime, Leonard was helping Marv [?] down the road build a house, so he was getting plenty of carpenter experience. We did some looking around and found some property on Rogue River and bought a couple acres there and decided that we would move. But we had to sell our house and we didn't have too much trouble. Some people in Grand Rapids wanted our house and we just traded houses. They bought our house, so we bought theirs, and ours was much more expensive than theirs, so we did alright. Moved into Grand Rapids just in time for Al to start kindergarten. Do you remember that? AM: Not really. EM: No, you don’t remember Riverside Elementary School? AM: I remember James Street... EM: Yeah, that's where we lived on James. AM: ...walking home. EM: Past a dog, remember you had to walk past that scary dog? AM: An old dog in the yard. EM: Then, to complicate things, my dad called again and said, there's another farm for sale down the hill and a nice big house and property, fruit trees and you've got some boys coming along. You might be interested now. And we decided maybe we were, if we're going to have boys to raise. Why not on the farm? So, we had already committed to building a house on the river, which we did. We lived in Grand Rapids in town for a year and then moved out to our house on the river and lived there just a short time. Joel came along in the fall of... no, he was born in June. AM: June, [nineteen] sixty-three, EM: Sixty-three and then the fall of [nineteen] sixty-three, I got a phone call from my mother-in-law that President Kennedy had been shot. And Al remembers that quite well because he was in school. AM: Yep, one of the few things I remember about down there. EM: It was pretty traumatic. Brad started kindergarten there and Al was in first grade. Dr. Hasty and his wife, Beverly, in Shelby bought our James Street house when we needed to sell it and rented it and that helped us out considerably. So that got us out of downtown and out on the river. The kids did enjoy living on the river. We could swim in the river and Leonard could play baseball in Rockford and that was fun. It was between Rockford and Sparta; the kids were in the Sparta school system. So, in June, nineteen sixty-three, Leonard started coming up to the farm and working on weekends with my dad to see what there was that he needed to learn and help him out. In Easter time of nineteen sixty-four, we made another move up to the farm and thankfully another person came along that wanted to buy our house on the river. Leonard's boss bought our house down there. So, we... except for I guess we kept one acre which we later sold to him, and the boys started at Garver School here in Hart. AM: It must have been kind of a big switch because I know the house on the river was a lot nicer and brand new compared to the house you moved in on the farm. It was an old farmhouse with plaster falling off. 12 �Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department EM: It was very old, very old. But we had no qualms about it because by then we understood what a builder Leonard was and so we had plans right away. We drew our own plans to build a house and live in the old house and build a house in front of it and move the old house out to use for farm labor. AM: You actually built your house behind the one that was there. EM: I said in front, didn’t I? AM: Yeah, behind. EM: We built it behind. AM: And when you built it, you could walk from one to the other with a plank... EM: Out the back door of the old house and the front of the new house. And Uncle Norman Johansen, my uncle, came to visit one time, looked out our picture window and the old house hadn’t been moved yet. He was a dry comedian. He looked out and he said, “it ain’t got much of a view.” We always had a laugh about that. Now we need to talk about farm labor. My dad had been buying small pieces of property and so there were up to over one hundred acres, I'm sure, by then. And so, he needed more help and he would pick up local help, but that wasn't going to be good enough. And people were coming from the South, but that wasn't enough. And there was a new system of help called the “crew leader system,” where a leader would gather a group of people from Texas or wherever they came from, and he would be responsible to oversee them, and they were usually young single men. And so, we got started… my dad got started using that system of labor for the harvest time. AM: There weren't many rules back then as to what he could or couldn't do, so there was a lot of... EM: No, there weren’t housing restrictions. People could sleep in the barn, which they did in chicken coops, in… AM: Tents. EM: ...tents, old houses. Yeah, there were virtually no rules. AM: And the crew leader, some of them anyway, charged their workers for taking them to town, for buying food, things of that nature. So, it was pretty loose. EM: When we remember one name in particular, Eliseo Salazar. Good man, I think he treated his people fairly. I don't know if it was the same ones that came back year after year or not, but he was a very nice man. AM: Now, he was from the valley, right? In Texas? EM: I don't remember AM: Alice, I believe they were from Alice, Texas. And then Donna and Far and those were some of the names that people were coming from down there. EM: Leonard right away got connected with the Michigan State Extension office in Hart and started taking classes, short course classes in agriculture because a lot of things he needed to learn. He could 13 �Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department learn from my dad first hand, but this brought him up to speed on the latest farming practices and put him in touch with the county agricultural agents that could help him decide what to plant and… AM: Spray. EM: And spray and things. It was really good for him. And he in school, he never had been a good student and didn't particularly care about learning. And so, this was something new for him. And he applied himself very well and did real well. EM: So, I guess in summary, I'll just say that it looked like we were here to stay and the boys were acclimating into school and farm and we were even looking at more property and life was looking pretty good. And I think, Al and Brad, our memories intersect here, and I think they can take it on from their vantage point of what it was like for them as they were young growing up on the farm. 14 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f6c491f5a798b275d0fa2468ba173f87.mp3 28d0d6efee3317b277a4a7526ec6f596 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oceana County Migrant Labor History Collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Shell-Weiss, Melanie Description An account of the resource Collection contains images and documents digitized and collected through the project "Growing Community: A Century of Migration in Oceana County." This project was a collaboration between El Centro Hispano de Oceana, the Oceana County Historical and Genealogical Society, and Grand Valley State University funded by a Common Heritage grant from the United States National Endowment for the Humanities. The materials in this collection document the history of communities in Hart, Shelby, and Walkerville and explore themes of migration, labor, religion, family, belonging, national and cultural identities, regional, national, and international connections, and citizenship. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Oceana County (Mich.) Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Grand Valley State University. Kutsche Office of Local History Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Special Collections and University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource El Centro Hispano de Oceana; Oceana County Historical and Genealogical Society Relation A related resource Growing Community (NEH Common Heritage project) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-06 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf image/jpeg audio/mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Image Sound recording Language A language of the resource eng spa Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016 Subject The topic of the resource Oceana County (Mich.) Hart (Mich.) Shelby (Mich.) Farms Farmers Migrant agricultural laborers Hispanic Americans Account books Diaries Oral history Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-06_Moul_Esther Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Moul, Esther Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-05-27/2016-05-29 Title A name given to the resource Moul, Esther (audio interview and transcript) Description An account of the resource Oral history interview with Esther M. Moul. Interviewed by her son, Alan Moul, on May 27 and 29, 2016 in Hart, Michigan. English language. Esther May Gilliland Moul was born in 1931 into a farming family located in Hart, Michigan. Her great-great-grandfather was the first Gilliland in Oceana County dating back to 1873 and the Gilliland family farm became a centennial farm in Hart, Michigan. She holds many memories of her life growing up on the farm: how they received their fruit trees from Hawley Nursery, stories of Dr. Munger who was known as the “Cherry King,” and life during World War Two. Esther graduated from high school in 1948 and went on to pursue nursing in Oak Park, Illinois at the West Suburban Hospital School of Nursing which was affiliated with Wheaton College. She married Leonard Moul in 1952 and worked at Butterworth Hospital in Grand Rapids while starting a family there. They later relocated their family to the fruit farm across the street from her parents in Hart, Michigan and were able to raise their sons with the same agricultural traditions that were a part of their family’s heritage. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Moul, Alan (interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oceana County (Mich.) Hart (Mich.) Farms Farmers Fruit growers Nursing Oak Park (Ill.) Wheaton College (Ill.) Butterworth Hospital (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Audio recordings Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Growing Community (NEH Common Heritage) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2f3edae64c93ab2bea7fdc88405ef00e.mp4 d8b6484e116dff8db510a1ae508231c1 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/42ba0b8120bfd3d9ecb0794bcf7473fc.pdf c6a70d3fafa8c22841629b6692ef386a PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: Jerry Moyer Interviewed by James Smither Transcribed by Christopher Kroupa Interviewer: We are at the 2016 Ripcord Association Reunion in Springfield, Missouri. We’re talking now with Jerry Moyer of Bella Vista Arkansas and the interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project. Okay Jerry, start us off with some background on yourself, and to begin with where and when were you born? Veteran: I was born right here in Springfield Missouri in 1948, October 13, Interviewer: Okay, did your family live in Springfield or in the area somewhere? Or… Veteran: Yes, lived over on the north side of town, Interviewer: Okay and did you grow up here? Veteran: I, I grew up till, I was here till I, let me think, about 1958, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: My dad died, and my mom remarried shortly after that and we moved to Omaha Nebraska, and that’s where I went to high school and that’s where I entered the service is up in Omaha, �Interviewer: Okay and did you graduate from high school? Veteran: Yes, Interviewer: Okay, when did you graduate? Veteran: 1966 was my year, Interviewer: Okay and what did you do after you got out, out of school? Veteran: I spent about a year working at a grocery store up there and, worked full-time, and didn’t have any rent or anything like that so I thought, I thought I was making good money, but I had a motorcycle and a GTO and I kept getting little tickets and I had four tickets in one month and the judge told me, I see you one more time I will do everything in my power to get your license, and this buddy I used to run with up there, we decided, you know we’ve been talking about going in the service lets go, go do it cause we don’t have a future here no more, it, it’s gonna happen, get another ticket and we went down to the recruiter, signed up and it was my buddies idea he said, (2:00) �Veteran: We wanna go Airborne Ranger, and yeah what the heck, go, go in on the buddy system and we did our physical and came back like three days later and he told me he said, I got good, called me in first, no called my buddy in first, and he, when he left he went out the door didn’t even come back to see me, but when I went in there the guy said, I got good news and bad news, bad news is we’re not gonna take your buddy he’s got a health issue, and the good news is we’re gonna take you and then he says, now do you still wanna go Airborne Ranger, and I said no I don’t think so and told him I had an uncle who worked for the phone company and have you got anything along them, and he said we got a wonderful pro-, we can get you climbing telephone poles stringing wire and I says that’s, that’s what I wanna do, I'm gonna go on, I'm gonna go ahead and go in and they kept their word on it I went to basic training at Fort Campbell Kentucky, the irony of that, that’s the home of the 101st, Interviewer: Alright now, before we get into that, to back up a little bit, so the physical that you took was actually a serious physical then? Veteran: Yes, Interviewer: Okay, cause some people suggest that what they got was, you know can you walk and breathe kind of thing, Veteran: Oh no no, they Interviewer: Not the one you did? �Veteran: They had doctors poking and prodding on us, Interviewer: Okay, alright and then, how much did you know about Vietnam at the point when you signed up? Veteran: Not a clue, not a clue, and matter of fact I didn’t even, you know I didn’t think there was any chance I’d be going off to some war somewhere, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: That, that, that’s how young and dumb I was, I didn’t realize that’s what the Army’s in the business for, but Interviewer: Alright, so you were just going as a thing to do and, Veteran: Get it out of the way, the draft was going on then, I said you got to do this anyway, Interviewer: Right, okay, so now when did you show up at Fort Campbell for basic training? (4:00) �Veteran: That would have been the early September and like I said we’d be out there, we thought they were trying to kill us but we would see these Airborne guys, well I mean we might march to the rifle range, these guys ran to the rifle range and might even do a circle around us, and I thought oh this is unreal what them guys, well they, I didn’t think that we had it so bad, but did our eight weeks of basic and, Interviewer: Okay, now before we move on from basic, just cover a little more for people who don’t know, what do you actually do in basic training? Veteran: You get a series of shots, just, it’s something they do and evacuation type things, and you learn how to march its simple as that sound, you gotta learn how to do it and you gotta learn who to salute and who not to salute and after about two or three weeks they let you handle a rifle, and you get to play with it for about a week and then they finally take you to a rifle range and you get to fire that weapon, and you know, things are going better then, when, it’s an eight week course and when you're in the fourth or fifth week they, they start to treat you a little nicer and they still call you trainee and they ain’t got a name for you, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And, but they do, they do start to treat you a little, and you learn the discipline, Interviewer: Mm-hmm �Veteran: There a chain of command and you better respect it, and you learn how to clean that barracks and you can never clean it good enough for em, you, you’ll clean it twice and then they might let you off then, Interviewer: Mm-hmm, now how easy or hard was it for you to adjust to all of that? Veteran: I, me personally I didn’t have any trouble at all, I mean, I, I wasn’t one of the fastest runners, but I wasn’t definitely wasn’t the slowest and my locker, footlocker and bunk might not have been the best, but it wasn’t the worst, (6:03) Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: I was, I was just kind of a middle-of-the-road person and it kept me out of trouble I mean, you know I learned real quick you don’t talk in the chow line in matter of fact we weren’t even allowed to talk when we were eating back then, but I adjusted pretty well, it didn’t bother me too much, I mean I can do the physical stuff, Interviewer: Mm-hmm, and as far as you , were the other guys you were training with other enlistees or were there draftees mixed in? Veteran: We had some of both, �Interviewer: Okay, alright so you kind of progressed through the training, you get into some weapons training, things like that and gradually and stuff kind of comes together, the drill instructors behave a little bit better, Veteran: Yup Interviewer: And then that’s an eight-week course? Veteran: Eight-week course, yeah Interviewer: Okay Veteran: And then there’s classroom activity all throughout all this stuff, and jus various military things that you need to know, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: You know booby traps, and you do a little, you get a little bit of schooling on everything, and its, again its associated with war, Interviewer: Mm-hmm, alright and what do you do then after basic? �Veteran: When you graduate from basic, they have a little ceremony a big parade field and now you're not a trainee no more, you're a real soldier, if you can pass basically, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: You're a solider, but they, they assign you where you're next duty station is and you get and MOS, an MOS is just, that’s your new job, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Your new title and if you go to that advanced, advanced infantry training school and pass you actually get that MOS, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And mine was 36 Charlie, that’s a signal, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: MOS, and my, my next duty station was Fort Gordon Georgia, and that’s, that’s the, they got WIC down there and they got the school for MPs, (8:00) �Veteran: But that’s where I learned to climb telephone poles and string wire and ride a little cable car, they had about eight poles set in a role that weren’t twenty feet apart, but you had to climb up that, set the little cable car on there and then you had to, from your gaffs, you had to get in that thing and not you know break your neck, and it wasn’t up that high probably I don’t think it was quite twenty feet but it’s at least fifteen feet, I mean it’d hurt you if you fell, but you go over to the next pole and you get out and get on the pole, grab your cable car and set it on the next, and when you go through the, that was, that’s how you pass that little course, Interviewer: Okay, and so you got through that alright? Veteran: Yeah, oh yeah Interviewer: Okay Veteran: Climbing didn’t bother me a bit, I, and I've never climbed, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: It, it, yeah �Interviewer: Just came naturally. All right, now eventually you wind up in Vietnam in an infantry unit, now you, but you, but did you finish that training course and then with that designation so were you, signals guy or? Veteran: Well I've got a signal MOS but then they sent me to Fort Leonard Wood for an advanced signal course, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And then, I think that only lasted about six weeks, but we went there and did that one and then we got our next orders to our duty station and mine was Germany, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And I spent a year and a half in Germany, Interviewer: Okay Veteran: And I was attached to a mechanized infantry unit and I had that signal MOS the whole time except right at the end I got promoted to Buck Sergeant, well the slot that was available to me was an infantry slot so my MOS changed when I got them three stripes, and now Sergeant Moyer is, we had a bulletin board in our company area and I don’t, I don’t, I got to looking at it too but they had what they call a levy, have you heard this term? �(10:06) Interviewer: Yeah, when it’s a, they're recruiting or they're, reassigning people, Veteran: Reassigning, Interviewer: When they draw them out of one unit and, Veteran: Yeah, Interviewer: Put them in another, Veteran: They had the list, had the levy guys come down and say the levies came down and you'd go up there and be a whole bunch of names on there and I think it was from the whole battalion that you were attached too, and the levy usually meant you were going to Vietnam, it’s a new duty station, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: I mean it could have been Korea but most of the time it was to Vietnam, well I know sooner than got these E-5 Sergeant stripes and my name popped up on there, and I had my wife �over there, and I had orders to leave, I don’t know in six weeks or something like that, but my wife was pregnant, they wouldn’t let her fly, so I got a deferment, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And when the baby came and I think they had to wait two months for, they didn’t want the baby flying until it was two months old, the two months came up, sent her home on an airplane and then I, I, I don’t know exactly how long after that but four or five months went by and I said they forgot me, lo and behold they haven’t forgot me, the orders came down again and I, that’s, requested a leave, 30-day leave, and when that leave was up and my eight to ten days travel time to get to my next duty station on the way to Vietnam, I only had ten months to go in the service and I kept thinking they're not gonna take me, they was happy to get me and I went, I went to Vietnam and I landed there, I had ten months to go, Interviewer: Okay, to back up a little, talk a little bit about the time you spent in Germany, (12:00) Interviewer: What unit were you with there, what were you doing, Veteran: I was assigned to the 4th Armored Division, and it was a little town called Crailsheim, Interviewer: Mm-hmm �Veteran: And we had two battalions on that post, there was a, our infantry, mechanized infantry unit and there was an artillery unit there that, and they were capable of firing, I don’t know what the proper term is, they could do a nuclear strike, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: But its, not, not nothing big, its, I don’t even know how to say this, there were small nuclear weapons, Interviewer: Right, because there were, as in artil-, that could be fired out of artillery pieces, Veteran: Yes, Interviewer: Yes, okay Veteran: They, Interviewer: Tactical nuclear devices, Veteran: Whatever that word is, yeah that’s right and they, and they had our infantry battalion was, were there to protect them when we deployed and Germany was, was good duty, got to go on passes pretty regularly and go out on the economy and see the castles and, �Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And the food, the guest houses, all that, the food was just excellent over there, its, I'm sure it’s changed but you order a meal over there and you think they brought all this food for me and my wife and who else is gonna be eating with us, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Big plates of steamed potatoes, huge bowl of salad you know good gosh, and there, and they were almost acted offended if you didn’t eat it all, but, Interviewer: Alright, now when had you gotten married? Veteran: I got married in AIT in ’68, February and she stuck with me all these years, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: I think we’re on number 48’s coming up, Interviewer: Alright, and so then she was able to go, now did she go with you to Germany or could she come out once you made Sergeant or how did that work? �Veteran: No I went to Germany alone, (14:01) Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And as soon as I got there, I checked into what I had to do to get off post privileges, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: You know to live off post, Interviewer: Right, Veteran: And they, they told me what I had to do, and I went down and found a place to rent and I rented it and they approved all this, and, and wrote home, hey get on a plane and get over here, we got a place to live, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: So we, we lived, we was over there eighteen months, Interviewer: Okay, so when do you actually go to Vietnam then? �Veteran: Okay, we came home from Germany and I don’t know if you, there were riots going on all across the country, Interviewer: Its 1968, yes, Veteran: And I remember when I got on the plane here in Springfield Missouri, we was gonna stop at Kansas City and it was a night flight and I remember they came on the loudspeaker and they said if your destination is not Kansas City do not leave the terminal, there's the National Guard Forces out and it, and I remember flying into that airport, you can see fires burning, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: But anyway okay I stayed in the airport and got on the next plane and went to Fort Lewis Washington, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And spent a couple weeks there, that’s the first time I ever had an M-16 in my hand and you know what a neat little rifle, we’d always have M-14s up to then, Interviewer: Mm-hmm, now by this time have they gotten the M-16 functioning well enough so you could use it without jamming or, �Veteran: Okay, I wanna skip a lot to tell you about that, Interviewer: Okay, Veteran: When I left Vietnam, when they threw me on that medevac to take me home, or take me to the hospital, up until that time I never had a malfunction with my M-16, I thought it was a wonderful weapon, Interviewer: Okay, alright, (16:00) Interviewer: It got better over time, alright so we go back and some people didn’t have trouble to start with so, anyway so I was gonna go back here, so you got, so basically you're, you're at Fort Lewis, so do you, were they training you on the M-16 just to kill time or was there something they wanted to do for people going to Vietnam? Veteran: I don’t think it was just to kill time, Interviewer: Okay, �Veteran: I think they, I think they possibly realized there was a lot of soldiers that had had an M16 in their hand, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Because that’s when they was converting over from the M-14, Interviewer: Right, right Veteran: But we, we were there for two weeks, we did some training on booby traps and contraband that we were going to run into over there in Vietnam, and it just lasted three weeks or two weeks anyway, Interviewer: Okay so to some extent it was an organized program and not just, Veteran: Oh absolutely, Interviewer: What you're doing while you're waiting, Veteran: Oh absolutely, Interviewer: Okay and then what kind of plane do you fly on, was it commercial or military? �Veteran: When that was done, and they said go down get on the bus to go to the airport, it’s a commercial plane, and we landed in Hawaii and dropped a passenger or two off there and wasn’t there in Hawaii very long at all, but took off again and landed at Wake Island and dropped a couple of people off there and then they came on the speakers, says we’re gonna be here for about an hour if you wanna get off and there’s a monument over here somewhere if, you can read about the battle that was here and all that, and I did get off and Wake Island, I’ll tell you what if somebody had spit in the ocean I believe they’d have a tidal wave, they, there is no high point on that island, but anyway we, we got on the plane and we went to Guam, and then from there we went to Ton Son Nhut Air Force Base outside of Si-, Saigon, Interviewer: Saigon right, okay now at this point do you know what unit you're going to, or were you gonna find out after you get there? Veteran: I’ll tell you about my heart getting broke, (18:01) Veteran: We had a couple of weeks of training that was the surge training, Interviewer: Mm-hmm �Veteran: And when it was all over, they had a big parade field and across the parade field they had trucks and buses and all of them had emblems on them, or a cardboard sign in the window that says first cab or whatever, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And then they had a little tower, up there about ten or fifteen feet and it had a guy with a bullhorn, and he would call your name and tell you what units you're going to, and there was about a thousand of us, and there was one other guy there with my last name, and I remember the, they said Sergeant Moyer 101st Airborne, ain’t me, I ain’t never jumped out of no plane, it’s gonna be the other guy, well nobody stepped forward, and these drill sergeants, or sergeants you know how they are when nobody responds to them, it was Sergeant blah-blah-blah, serial number 101st Airborne, and I said my God that’s me, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And grabbed my duffle bag and I, I, I always remember this going across that parade field to that bus and I, I felt like a kid that had just seen his puppy ran over, I am, I am down in the dumps, what are they gonna do, hey this is the real thing, them guys are I mean I've heard of the 101st and I went to basic training, was all around them, I got over to the bus and I asked the driver I said, I told, I said driver they’ve made a mistake with me I've never jumped out of a plane in my life, and he promptly reassured me we’re not jumping, we just need infantry �replacements and I thought they ran over my other dog then, I, I was so down in the dumps that day it was just unreal, and (20:00) Interviewer: So at this point you didn’t really know what the 101st had been doing in Vietnam, Veteran: No, Interviewer: You were just thinking about jumping out of airplanes, and then being stuck being infantry, Veteran: Yean and, I'm, I'm, I have no idea what, what are they gonna use me for, I mean this driver said they're gonna you as an infantryman, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: But, but I, and I do remember going up there and I don’t remember what movie it is about Vietnam, and it might be Hamburger Hill, but at the start of the movie they show some new guys coming into country and some old guys leaving, Interviewer: They do that in Platoon I know, �Veteran: Is it Platoon, Interviewer: Yeah, Veteran: Okay, but they talk about don’t go to the A Shau, I hope you don’t have to go to the A Shau, I remember these guys like what the hell is the A Shau, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And guess where I spent eight months, in the A Shau Valley, and I you know I realized what they were talking about, but I went up to Phu Bai, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And promptly got introduced to a night attack, it wasn’t serious, but you know there sirens are going off, the lights are all being shut off and there's a rocket attack and I can remember seeing, they told us later it was these 122 rockets, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: A rocket about six foot tall, and you can see them flying across the sky, you can see the, the sparks and stuff and I thought wow, is this what wars really like, you know I, I, I didn’t know what war was like, and I don’t have a gun now, they haven’t issued me a weapon right, I'm just �sitting in a barracks with a bunch of guys, we ain’t got nothing but our fists to fight with, but anyway went over to Camp Evans after that and got introduced to my first Sergeant, and he said the guys were out in the field but there's a stand down coming, I didn’t know exactly what a stand down was which he said they’ll be coming in a couple of days and we’ll, we’ll get you situated with your company, not your company your platoon, (22:02) Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And that’s when I met my guys, Interviewer: Okay, so what company were you assigned to? Veteran: I was assigned to Charlie company 2nd platoon, and I was actually 2nd squad, Interviewer: Okay, and then which battalion regiment? Veteran: 2nd battalion, 506 Infantry Division, Interviewer: Regiment, that’s the regiment, the 101st Airborne Division, Veteran: 101st Airborne Division, �Interviewer: Yeah Veteran: That’s right the regiment was 506, Interviewer: Yeah, you just wanna officially get all that down on the record Veteran: the 3rd Brigade, Interviewer: Right, okay so how long did you spend in Camp Evans before they got back in do you think? Veteran: It’s just two or three days, and a Interviewer: Okay, Veteran: And, and I was very pleased when the guys did come in and they, and again I was please but I thought here again I'm nervous, cause they said you're gonna be a squad leader, you're a Sergeant, Interviewer: Mm-hmm �Veteran: And they introduced me to my squad and I mean these, these rascals looked tough, but they were a good bunch of guys and I more or less said I'm green as a gourd, when it comes to what, what you guys are really doing out there help me out, and then we’ll go from there, and they did, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: I mean I didn’t get bossy with them or you know, we’re gonna do this and that, no we’re not doing, I did not do that, I let them, I let them lead me, first few weeks, and you get the hang of what you do, it’s just repetitious you, you go searching out in the jungle it gets lunchtime you stop, and set up kind of a position that you could defend if something were to happen, you eat your food, put your rucksack back on, you go out looking some more and at night time you put your claymore mines out, come back in cook your food and write your letters and, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Then set up your guard shifts (24:00) Veteran: Every night you got pull guard and, in my squad, we pulled guard at least two times a night and most of the time three times a night because it’d be three men guard, guard positions and you, and you know dark, dark to daylight, �Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: There's a lot of hours in there, Interviewer: How many men in the squad? Veteran: Eight, Interviewer: Okay, Veteran: Sometimes nine, mostly eight, somebody was always off on R and R or somebody was going home, eight, eight, eight or nine, Interviewer: Okay, and when do you, did you actually join these guys? Kind of what month or, Veteran: Oh its November just before Thanksgiving, Interviewer: Okay, so November ’69, okay Veteran: Yes, �Interviewer: Its actually when we were talking before about coming back and the riots and things like that, that would have been kind of summer of ’69 or early fall or somewhere in there, Veteran: When I, Interviewer: You were talking about being, flying from Springfield to Kansas City and staying at Fort… Veteran: Oh I see what you're getting, Interviewer: So that’s, I guess early, somewhere in the fall of ’69, Veteran: November, Interviewer: Yeah, Veteran: It probably would have been September, Interviewer: Yeah, Veteran: I'm just guessing at the month, Interviewer: Yeah, �Veteran: That, that I did that in, Interviewer: Okay, alright so anyway we’ve gotten ourselves to November of ’69, you’ve joined your unit, you're starting to go out into the field, and where were you operating? Veteran: We were operating in what they call I Corps, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: I Corps is the northernmost part of South Vietnam it starts, the northern edge of it is the DMZ, and it goes south of a town called Da Nang and over to the Laotian border, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And all points in between, Interviewer: Right, and then specifically within that you mentioned going to the A Shau Valley so is that where you were operating? Veteran: That’s where I operated at, the A Shau Valley, I was wounded in my eighth month and the previous seven months were spent in the A Shau Valley, �Interviewer: Okay, so what, (26:00) Interviewer: What was going on there militarily or whatever at the time you got there, was there much enemy activity or was it quieter? Veteran: When I was over there, there was right at a hundred GI’s a month dying in all of Vietnam, and the first month I was over there I don’t remember experiencing anybody in our company dying, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: But every now and then you'd hear about somebody, somebody got it over in bravo company or, and it, I was over there a couple of months before we, our company actually took any casualties, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: We had to send home in a body bag, but you know I, I'm thinking how unlucky was that guy and all this and, and you know, and we did, we did a lot of searching and finding nothing, Interviewer: Mm-hmm �Veteran: And I’ve, I’ve jokingly and I hate to trivialize what I am saying, it was a big campout, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: I mean I went for, oh I know there was times I went two weeks without firing my weapon, but when you did fire it you know things got exciting, most fire fights lasted less than ten minutes, five minutes, Interviewer: Mm-hmm, so these just be a handful or a couple of the, Veteran: Trail watchers is what we called them, they’ve got a camp down the trail a quarter mile or something and they're just the advanced warning if something goes wrong, shut that off, *Screen goes black* Interviewer: Alright so we have you at this point in, in Vietnam, you’ve shown up at the end, and you’ve gone out in the field at the end of the year in ’69, you say you’ve kind of got there before Thanksgiving where you, on Thanksgiving day do you remember if you were in the field or on a firebase or, Veteran: Absolutely remember where I was at that day, we were in the foothills, �(28:00) Veteran: West of Camp Evans, and the mountains were just beyond us, they sent out a helicopter on Thanksgiving day and they'd had these coolers had had cranberries in this one, mashed potatoes in this one, gravy in this one, turkey and dressing in this one, and they even sent some milk out and that was a very, very rare thing to have, I know, I know, as far as the food went I, I, I actually craved milk or something sweet, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Because we just didn’t have that and, but it was a very good meal and a couple hours later choppers came back out and picked up all that stuff, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And we’re back to eating c-rations again, Interviewer: Right, Veteran: But it was a good break, it, I mean I don’t know in the rear organized that or said they had to do this, or they did it just because it was the right thing to do, Interviewer: Mm-hmm �Veteran: But they did do it and it was very nice Interviewer: Mm-hmm, alright it was something commonplace in the 1st Cavalry Division because they had lots of helicopters, it varied for a lot of other units and sometimes the food came in and already spoiled so you got lucky, Veteran: I, I guess I did, yeah Interviewer: Alright now who was your company commander when you join the unit, do you remember? Veteran: I believe his name, I'm gonna say Lamb, Interviewer: Mm-hmm because you had a picture of a Captain Lamb in your book so I expect that was, Veteran: I, I think he was our and I didn’t have enough rank to hob knob with them people, Interviewer: Mm-hmm, right, Veteran: So I didn’t, I didn’t break bread with them, and I mean I didn’t get to talk to them very often, �Interviewer: Mm-hmm, and do you remember who your platoon leader was? Veteran: No, Interviewer: Okay, (30:00) Interviewer: Cause they also came and went, Veteran: I think his, we called him Queenie and his name might have been Queen, but that’s, Interviewer: Okay, now had your unit been involved in the Hamburger Hill fight before you joined it? Veteran: I don’t know, Interviewer: Okay so they didn’t talk about that, Veteran: That’s 101st, that’s a 101st battle but, Interviewer: Mm-hmm �Veteran: I don’t know if my actual battalion was involved in that or not, Interviewer: Alright, okay so you're out there, now my understanding is you spend some time in, in the A Shau and then some point early in 1970 you're back at Camp Evans or along the coast or up toward the DMZ, you're different people from that company have kind of mentioned different places, do you remember, because you talked about being in the foothills at Thanksgiving so you weren’t all the way on the A Shau at that point, Veteran: Right at the edge of it, Interviewer: Yeah so would you kind of go in and out or just stay there for a while and then get out or what do you recall about where you went? Veteran: Well this foothills thing, that, that was rare, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: I mean, I, and, and the weather was different right there because we were in lower altitude, Interviewer: Mm-hmm �Veteran: And it was hot, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Most of the time, like I said we were in the A Shau, at nighttime, I ain't gonna say it gets cold but it does get cold, and when the rains come I mean it is cold, but as far as being back at Camp Evans I don’t know, every three or four weeks we get to go to Camp Evans for a threeday stand down, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And that was, I mean that was, that was a break you didn’t have to pull guard duty at night, you got to sleep all night, which you know that, that’s very unusual we got to sleep all night, but I never went to the DMZ, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Just basically, just twenty-five miles due west to Camp Evans was just where I was at, within a, Interviewer: Mm-hmm (32:00) �Veteran: I don’t a five-mile circle, Interviewer: Alright, now one of the things that happened with your particular company was that there's sort of several changes of commander, couple of them anyway while you're there, and a Captain Vazquez would have come in, Interviewer: Veteran: Mm-hmm Interviewer: At some point early in 1970, what impression did you have of him? Veteran: Like I said before I didn’t hob knob with these guys, they're more rank than I will, I wanna be associated with but we, we learned to respect Captain Vazquez, he was not gonna let us get in too big a jam, I mean we might get into a problem but he, he, we, you could tell this man here he knew what to do about it, he didn’t have to call for help he knew what to do, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And he can get us out of it, in fact Captain Vazquez he was a, he was a soldier’s soldier, Interviewer: Mm-hmm, right and did anything in terms of what you did in the field, did any practicality change the way you did anything or were things more subtle than that? �Veteran: When Captain Vazquez took over, probably the biggest change I remember that from what we normally did, we looked harder for the enemy, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: With Captain Vazquez, I mean the other, the other you know, might not have to do a lot of searching, and then do that for three or four days but maybe a helicopter pick you up and take you to the other side of the ridge, you do it again, but Vazquez we, we, we covered a lot of ground with that man, Interviewer: Mm-hmm and he talks about never wanting to use trails, is that what you recalled, did you have to cut your own way or? Veteran: I, I don’t remember that particular thing and I, and maybe somebody there with us does remember that, (34:00) Veteran: I do remember we did make a lot of trails, but I had never thought of it, you know he kept us off of established trails, I do remember we found trail markers when we were on trails, Interviewer: Mm-hmm �Veteran: And that, that was kind of a scary thing that, you know somebody put signs up saying something, Interviewer: So that’s basically to give the North Vietnamese directions for when they're using the trails? Veteran: Yeah, this trail here is good, this ones booby-trapped, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Yeah, I mean, and I don’t know exactly, but I do remember seeing these, these little chop marks in trees and there's the trail goes two different ways, Interviewer: Okay, did you have any Vietnamese with you, in your company? Did they have a Chieu Hoi or somebody? Veteran: We had a Chieu Hoi, our platoon had one and Hap was his name, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Or that’s all I ever know of him by, and he was quite, we, we trusted him, Interviewer: Mm-hmm �Veteran: He, I do remember one of these trail markers he, he said no, no, no, no, I forget the language he used, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: But he is talking Vietnamese we don’t want to go that way, and we didn’t, Interviewer: Okay so he seemed to know at least something about what was going on out there? Veteran: Oh absolutely he did, I mean, and I can understand that, I mean once the North Vietnamese soldiers came down there that, I mean they had a set of trail markers and it was good, it was good for anybody, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: In their outfits that came by this, so it, it wasn’t a real secretive thing, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: That the way, what these trail markers meant, �Interviewer: Okay, alright so you spend, so if you kind of go from November, December or January February March, (36:00) Interviewer: You're kind of doing pretty much the same thing? Veteran: Well during that period when the monsoons came, Interviewer: Okay, Veteran: That was a, that was ugly, we, we got socked in and we’re just, the rain is just unde-, you can’t describe it, its I mean when the season started you know every day at two o’clock it’s raining, and a few days later it seems like it starts at noon, and then it just progresses over that first month until its, its literally raining all day long, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And that goes on for three or four weeks and then, then it tapers back down but up there in the mountains it was, normal time it was cold at night, I mean you, well during the monsoon season you, I, it’s a wonder we didn’t catch pneumonia out there, Interviewer: Mm-hmm �Veteran: Because we’re wet all the time and I don’t remember anybody ever catching pneumonia come to think of it, it, leaches were bad, I mean good gosh and when I was, before I went over to Vietnam I can remember swimming in a creek and you might get a little ole leach a half-inch or an inch long on you, and it’s all just, ehh, just, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Curls your skin to take his thing sucking blood out of you, and we get over there and they got these leaches that live on dry land, I mean you're going up the side of a mountain and these things are crawling on you and, and I don’t know what they do when they bite you, they, they did in the skin or something because most of the time you don’t feel them chewing on you, what you feel is when they're bloated and grotesque and they fall off of you and they roll down your pants leg, that’s what you feel, they're full, they’ve had enough but, and I, and I do remember this and this is probably kind of, (38:00) Veteran: A GI will find a way to goof off or have fun one way or another, and we had this mosquito repellent if a leech is on you, you squirt that on him and he would fall off but the repellant kind of burnt where the blood was, but we, we catch on of these leeches and we find a rock or something and put him right in the middle of it and put a circle of this insect repellant �around it and watch him try to get out of that and I mean it’s just silly stupid stuff, but it was entertaining, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: We didn’t have much entertainment out there, Interviewer: Alright, now most of the time when you were in the field in this period, did you operate in individual platoons or have the whole company together or break down in squads, I mean was there a normal procedure? Veteran: In my outfit, we operated in company strength rarely, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: I mean we might move into an area and the whole company is there, but this platoon goes over this way and this platoon goes, and when we were in platoons, when I was in platoon strength a lot, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: But every now and then you could tell somebody from up above, Captain Vazquez or somebody’s called in, send a squad out here on an ambush, or we got a resupply day, Lieutenant �Campbell we need somebody to recon down this side of this mountain to the bottom across the river, go up the other side and turn around and come back and the next day is probably, that’s probably where we’re going, but really rarely operated in squad strength, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Mostly in platoon strength, Interviewer: And most of that time about how many men did you have in the platoon? Veteran: Twenty-five, that was probably, again we, we carried more than that but there was always somebody in, (40:02) Veteran: You know they’ve smashed their toe or something and they're, they're in the rear recovery, they're on R and R, so we were always short, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: We never had full strength, I never remember, I said it, I don’t even know what full strength was, but I know we didn’t have enough men all the time, �Interviewer: Yeah, so a lot larger than what your company had, Veteran: Yeah, Interviewer: So okay, so you're like, now in, starting in the middle or March of 1970, that’s when they make their first effort to set up what will become Firebase Ripcord, Veteran: That’s true, Interviewer: And initially this Alpha Company goes in and then B Company actually tries, Veteran: And both of them had lots of problems, Interviewer: Yeah, and they both leave, and we get into April, now its C Company’s turn to go in, Veteran: Yeah, I mean this is like B Company got fired up and the next day they told us we’re going up there, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And when, it’s one of the, there's a few things in Vietnam I will never forget, and, and I called them rotten SOB’s, they flew a chaplain out to have communion or whatever, some kind �of services for us before we left, I thought my God they're gonna get us killed, where are we going, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And I know they said everybody go to the ammo dump, draw extra grenades and more ammo than you normally carry, and we did that, and I do remember virtually every man dropped a letter in the mail sack, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: As we was boarding them choppers, and consequently we, we’re up there and we are circling around their artillery going off down there, and then they brought us in and we spent that first night on the side of that mountain, (42:00) Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And then the next morning we walked up there and didn’t fire a shot, I mean it was, they'd left, and, and then he start of the helicopters coming in bringing concertina wire and you name it, just everything that, that hill needed to defend itself, �Interviewer: Alright, now do you remember if Captain Vazquez was with you on that very first night or did he come in the next day? Veteran: No I don’t remember this, Interviewer: Okay, alright, now what was, as the base is getting established and your company is still up there on top of that hill, what kind of work did you do? Veteran: My, well basically we were all told, we’ve got to make this defendable, and if you weren’t digging a fighting trench and a bunker to sleep in, you were out clearing trees and stuff down below rolling them up and just making a field of fire that they don’t have much to hide behind, and put more concertina wire up and, getting ammo boxes and building the front of your fighting trench up with them and the three top layers are full of grenades, and, and in your M-16 magazines and one of the boxes probably have a, the firing devices for the claymore mines, and gosh we must have had, there was four of us in that bunker and, and we must have had a dozen claymores out in front of us, because we weren’t packing them around, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: We were just, you was just going up and getting them, keep setting them out and we dug a hole for a fifty-five-gallon drum that we had fougas out of, and we set two claymores behind it and put the can in there and fill it up with the, �(44:02) Veteran: JP4, that’s aviation fuel and I don’t remember what we, we mixed it up, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: With sawdust or something, Interviewer: Somebody, somebody suggested it was soap powder or, Veteran: Soap powder, I don’t remember, we did mix it with something to make it, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Coagulate a little bit, Interviewer: Right Veteran: And it becomes kind of, it stick to you a little bit better, but we put two claymores behind it and ran the cord back to a firing position, and that, that’s an impressive thing to see get set off, Interviewer: Mm-hmm �Veteran: It, it would make me change my mind what, what I was wanting to do, Interviewer: Yeah it just a giant burst of flame, Veteran: Oh, Interviewer: Popping up right in front of you, yeah. How long do you think you spent on top of Ripcord? At least that first time, Veteran: Oh that first time, shoot, it’s probably about thirty days, Interviewer: Okay, Veteran: We, and that was good duty, I mean, I mean you weren’t even out humping around, I mean the, the night time over in Vietnam its, there's a song, you curse the darkness and you pray for the light, and it didn’t matter if you was on Firebase Ripcord or you was out in the jungle in a small outfit, the darkness it just it, I will say this the darker it was, the safer you felt because I mean when its pitch black, in the jungle with that triple canopy you can’t move in it without making a lot of noise, so I mean that was the safety margin right there, Interviewer: Mm-hmm �Veteran: It’s in big moonlit night, I wrote letters home at two o’clock in the morning in the moonlight, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: and now that’s, that’s, that’s when you should be more alert because that’s, the enemy can move around and be reasonably quiet, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Yeah, Interviewer: Alright, so you're up there, now during that time, I mean did the enemy make any effort either to probe position or did they shoot anything at you while you were up there? (46:01) Veteran: Occasionally, not very much, we might take two or three mortar rounds one day and the probing part of it, they could have probed us every night I wouldn’t have known any different, Interviewer: Mm-hmm �Veteran: But I'm sure they did probe us occasionally, but I don’t remember taking a small arms fire while we were there, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: No RPGs, and your direct fire weapons, but they did mortar us ever, yeah, I mean every three or four days, accept right when the big battle started, now that’s a different story, all, all them things I said didn’t happen, Interviewer: Right, Veteran: Did happen, Interviewer: Yeah, okay but initially it, it’s fairly quiet and in some ways its, Veteran: Good duty Interviewer: Things were going the way they were supposed to, Veteran: Yup, Interviewer: And after that thirty days or whatever it is, now your company goes out in the field now? �Veteran: Then we do a, then we do a patrol and they rotated us, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Bravo Company or Alpha Company came in and they did what we were doing, see this would have been in April and in May, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And then June we went back, and we’re up on the hill, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And we, we got some more of this good duty, that’s what I called it, and I, I do remember this, I don’t remember if it’s our last night on Ripcord or our next to last night, there was a poker game going on, and it’s in one of the bunkers, and we jury-rigged these lights down underneath there, you know you couldn’t see them from outside, but there was, I don’t know four or five maybe even six men down there playing poker and I didn’t have enough money to play poker but it was entertainment, Interviewer: Mm-hmm �Veteran: You get to watch them, and I do remember our Captain at that time, he, he was loaning people money, get them back in the game, he was taking IOU’s, (48:00) Veteran: And I can vaguely remember him saying something about this is a car payment, I'm gonna make a car payment this month, and this is Captain Hewitt, Interviewer: Because by this time Vazquez has been taken out of the field, Veteran: Yeah, Interviewer: Because he had been there too long already and now new Captain has come in to replace him, do you have much of an impression of Captain Hewitt or did you not know him well enough to know anything? Veteran: Well see we were out in the jungle before we came up on Ripcord, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And that’s where I first got in, in contact with him, and we did travel in company strength, �Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: A little more with him than we did with Vazquez, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: But Captain, Captain Hewitt carried a, a pump shotgun and a 22 semi-automatic pistol, and right off the bat this is odd, you know what, what kind of a guy have we got, you’ve got impressions of a man that does something, I mean he’s going against the rules, you carry an M16 or a machine gun or a grenade launcher or something like that, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And here he’s got these and I, I can really feel we’re going on another rabbit hunt, we’re, we’re going off in general we’re looking for rabbits and, I'm gonna say my first impression of him, I was not real secure with him leading us, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: But anyway in that poker game I know he won a lot of money and a lot of it was going be on payday stakes and that kind of stuff, Interviewer: Mm-hmm �Veteran: And then that, might have been the next day or the day after that, we went to the ridge line that 902’s on, and we landed, I'm guessing a half mile from it and we all went in there and we secured the area and did all that stuff, and then next day we headed towards 902, I mean I had no idea where our destination was, (50:00) Veteran: Or where they wanted us to go, I mean we got there and they said you know set up camp and that’s a, that would have been on the afternoon, wasn’t July 1st, it a day before that, Interviewer: Yeah June 30, Veteran: Yeah, we’re out there and Ripcord starts taking mortar shells, that firebase is, I mean this, this wasn’t probing this is, they’ve, they’ve been zeroing in guns for three months or two months and these tubes were, they were hitting Ripcord, and you know we said something’s going on, and we’re sitting there, a lot of us are watching it and a chinook helicopter came into Ripcord with a sling load of something, and they had heavy machine guns set up somewhere close because they shot this rascal down, they forced it down, didn’t, didn’t crash and burn right then, and they sent another chinook out there to sling it up and carry it out of there, well they did the same thing to it, they shot it down and you know we’re sitting there watching all this and go wow, you know something, somethings going on, this, this is unusual and it was somewhere right in there we could hear the sound of a mortar tube on the mountain that we’re on somewhere �down near the bottom of it and its, it’s a long ways to the bottom of it and one of these mortar tubes that’s firing on Ripcord just right down here and we, we, we’re talking this over you know we’re trying to course where it’s at, till we can get some directions to them to fire artillery down there, and I don’t remember if it was another sergeant or me and a, (52:00) Veteran: Just another squad member, but we, we gathered up a couple of LAW anti-tank missiles and we went over to that side of the hill which is really right where my, my position was and I fired one and he fired one and I’d be foolish to think that we knocked them out, but I do know this, they quit firing, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And I don’t, I really don’t think we hit them, that, I mean we just randomly shot them and I mean this things got a range of like four-hundred meters and I mean we’re shooting this thing is, it’s going way over a quarter of a mile away down the side of that mountain, I mean you, you shoot it and you, you count to ten or fifteen before you hear the thing blow up down there, Interviewer: Mm-hmm �Veteran: But I've always said they didn’t like us up there pinpointing where their mortar position was, Interviewer: Right, Veteran: And now we’ve already spent a night there, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And, Interviewer: So now this is July 1st that you're doing the shooting LAWS then, Veteran: Yes, this is July 1st when all this is going on and I've always kind of guessed they didn’t like us being up there pinpointing where they're at, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And I mean all during the day there's jets coming in dropping bombs, the F-4, the fast movers, they're coming in and I, I seen some planes I’d never seen before come in there and drop ordnance, but we’d never spent two night in a row in the same place, Interviewer: Mm-hmm �Veteran: Until then, and again Vazquez wouldn’t, I, I believe if the, if the Battalion Commander would have told him to sit there a second night, he would have moved us fifty yards nothing else, I mean we might still be right there close, but we would have moved, Interviewer: Mm-hmm (54:00) Veteran: But we did not move, and they, well they came up and got us that night, Interviewer: Okay, now did you dig new defensive positions or reuse the ones from the night before? Veteran: We didn’t move, we stayed right where we were, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And I mean there was modifications made to them, make them, making them better, Interviewer: Mm-hmm �Veteran: But now we’re, we’re right in the same place, we didn’t move, I mean we got a Captain there with us, we’ve got two Lieutenants there with us and, Interviewer: Did you have, well you had Bob Leibecke, Veteran: Yup, Interviewer: One of the platoons wasn’t there, Veteran: Jim Campbell, my platoon leader he was on R and R, Interviewer: Yeah but one whole platoon wasn’t there either, cause Sergeant Burkey Veteran: Burkey was on Ripcord, yes, I think he’s third platoon, Interviewer: Yeah so you got two platoons on there, Veteran: Yeah, Interviewer: And, Veteran: Under strength, �Interviewer: Yeah, yeah and then okay, so there wasn’t another Officer, but I know there was forward artillery forward observer was up there Veteran: Yeah that was a, three Officers, Interviewer: Yeah and you had, was one platoon led by a Sergeant, or now is, because Campbell wasn’t there, Veteran: Right, Interviewer: Right, okay so not very many men to start with, Veteran: Yeah and short one Lieutenant, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And, and what, where I was getting with on that I mean there, there's three Lieutenants there and who am I to say hey we’re really not staying here again, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: I mean, I mean it wouldn’t have done any good anyway I don’t think, �Interviewer: Okay, well alright so now it gets to be nightfall and then what happens? Veteran: Well we set up our guard rotation like we’ve been doing for previous eight months that I've been there, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And there were three men positions, there may have been a few four man positions but that was the most men at on position, (56:01) Veteran: And the average guard shift at my position was like an hour and fifteen minutes, and if you got three guys there you can see you're not gonna get sleep just a couple of hours, two and a half hours, and then you're gonna be woke up again and you’ll pull, you pulled about three hours, or three guard shifts in a night, and I remember the Platoon Sergeant came over and woke me up and it’s your turn, your guard shift, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: That’s okay that’s cool, and I got up and its, it’s a routine you, you grab your rifle and you grab your helmet and you move over by the claymore firing devices, �Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And, and we had a radio right there, and I'm listening on the radio and I hadn’t been up fifteen minutes through, its 3:15 now, and somebody on the hill and I couldn’t identify them said they had movement out in front of them, this is not unusual, there are animals all over Vietnam and we’ve had movement many many times, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: But you pay attention to it, you don’t just disregard it and say it is an animal, and I'm listening to that okay, and somebody else is doing this too, they're saying yeah I've got movement out in front of me, and it, it perks your ears up a little bit well now I got movement out in front of me, and I got on the radio and I called the CP, I don’t know if it was Doc Cafferty or who it was I was talking to in the CP, but I said we’ve got three positions that’s got movement in front of them, we need to start waking people up and go at least a fifty percent alert, and I’ll get back with you, okay, minute or two passed and he came back and he says yeah start waking people up, I laid the, my mic down and, (56:00) Veteran: I started crawling back to where that Sergeant was and all hell broke loose as I started over there, in his position there were three men and two of them were killed, the third one is a �missing in action guy and I'm just speculating, when we got overrun and I, I'm just speculating again I think that position there is where they overrun us from, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: But when they left, I think they may have drugged this man off, thinking it was one of their own if nothing else, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: I, you know, I don’t know, and I know if you lose somebody in combat it’s a very demoralizing thing, and they may have been thinking along them lines I, I really don’t know, Interviewer: Yeah, they, they had a policy of trying to recover their bodies and part of it was they didn’t want us to know how many we killed, Veteran: And they were human beings, they, they worshiped, or they bowed down to God and yeah, they believed in the hereafter and all that, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: So they tried to recover their bodies too, but you know all three of their men were wiped out right immediately, �Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: RPG or something, I don’t know it could have been a big satchel charge, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Something blew up right there in their, and then plus the Captain and his position was hit immediately, and this gets back to, I really think they were probing us, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: In the daylight, and I, I don’t, they probably couldn’t believe their good fortune when we stayed there the second day, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And they really got us probed because I mean they, they hit the CP and that, that just wasn’t a random shot, Interviewer: Mm-hmm �Veteran: And plus that one position they took it out and I don’t know who it was over there at that position, they did not die immediately, Ripcord was firing illumination for us, (1:00:00) Veteran: And when the lights were up and burning things got real quiet, and I mean you look around and you see these shadows moving from that parachute coming down, and that makes the shadows move, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And I mean your eyes are just going back and forth you know what, is something moving there, and no its just a shadow, but they did not keep the illumination up continuously, they, they missed timed it a little bit, and sometimes the lights would go out, and when the, Interviewer: Okay, alright this tape is about up so we’re gonna pause right here and the, *Screen goes black* Interviewer: Now we’ve gotten you to the point of the beat, the beat, onset of the attack on hill 902, I guess early morning hours on July 2nd 1970, so the first blast is gone off in your sector, the hole you were just very close too, and you're talking about the, there's illuminations rounds �dropping and the enemy moving around someplace, so what do you do yourself after that blast, once the attack started? Veteran: I threw two hand grenades, that’s the first thing I did, I mean I, there's things you do in combat when, when, when somethings happening, every night when you go to bed you know where your pistol belt, you know where your grenades are, you know where your helmet is and you know where your rifle is, and okay I know there's a battle going on, I'm grabbing all these things and I'm throwing two grenades, just right out in front of me just kind of left and right one, and I blew a couple of claymore mines and now I've got my rifle and I'm trying to find a target when the lights are on, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And this man to my left, and I, I don’t know who it was but they, they were in agony (1:02:00) Veteran: And the medic was right there with me and, and there are satchel charges going off all over this hill just, you know I don’t know how many it was but dozens if not twenty-five or thirty of them, Interviewer: Mm-hmm �Veteran: Real quick like went off and he said, I'm gonna go, I'm gonna go get him and I, I do remember telling him hold one a minute, let’s get this, let’s get this thing under control then you go help everybody, and this guy’s moaning over there, well he’s drawing satchel charges and these things are going off ten or fifteen feet from us, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And you could tell when one landed close to this man the intensity of his screams got really blood-curdling, anyway he says I've got to go help that man and he started to move and he was shot and he died at my feet, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And this, this thing with the lights going off and on, this went on for an hour, hour and a half I mean, untold satchel charges went off, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: If I was guessing I hate to say a thousand explosions were on that hill that night, but I don’t think I’d miss very many, very much, it was just lots of them, Interviewer: Now was there rifle fire too or just the satchel charges? �Veteran: I remember very little rifle fire, I mean these were smart soldiers, there was undoubtedly some, but at this point I mean, my ear drums were already broke, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Or I, when they tested me, I had one ear drum broken, the other one was just a, just a loud ringing, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And, but a gun fire you could still hear it even when your, you still hear something, Interviewer: Mm-hmm (1:04:00) Veteran: And I remember us, and I, I was disorientated a little bit about what was going on, to me I mean we’re invincible there ain't nobody gonna do this to us, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: There's enemy out in front wanting to do something to us and I'm gonna take care of them, the enemy is in front of me, I had no idea we was already overrun, and I still didn’t put two �and two together when a satchel charge hot my leg and I could feel it kind of bounce bounce bounce off my leg coming towards me and I'm laying out, and I'm, I mean I immediately started crawling forward just as fast as I could, and I'm hanging on to my helmet waiting for this thing to blow up, and it was a dud, it didn’t blow up, I scooted myself back I still didn’t put two and two together this came from behind me, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: But just a few minutes later another one landed real close to me, I didn’t know it, and when it blew up it blew me over the side of the hill and I lost all my spare ammo at that point, I did keep my helmet and I kept my rifle and, and I remembered I just put a few magazine in my rifle so I had a full magazine, but when I quit rolling around, I, I remember looking back over my left shoulder and my fatigue pants were on fire, and I've always said I don’t know how close that satchel charge was to me to actually set my pants on fire but it had to be close, but anyway, all I could think about is they could see me, I mean I'm, I'm on fire, I got little flickering flames on my fatigue pants, and this is when, the scaredist I've ever been in my life was at this point right here, I took my hand and I started swatting these little flickering flames out, (1:06:01) Veteran: And I got them out, I put them out, but my hand could feel my leg but leg could not feel my hand, and I did not know how bad I was hurting, and I'm telling you its, just sends chills up my spine just thinking about that, but anyway I'm there with a full magazine, my legs fortunately �I wasn’t hurting very bad, but it was numb and lights, the flare popped up there and I'm gonna, I've got a soldier in front of me and I can remember, I can remember this man just plain as day he reminded me of a puppet, as I was going pop pop pop pop pop, I could see his shoulder jerk I can see a hip double up a little bit and, and I just go, pop pop pop pop and something said you don’t have any more ammo, an di quit shooting and I remember reaching around and feeling the dust cover on my M-16 and the bolt was closed, I thought I've got a bullet in the chamber, and I said right then and there somebody’s gonna have to be trying to pick me up or stick a bayonet in me before I shoot him again, and I know I've got at least one bullet left and come to find out that when morning came and, the battle, the battle ended shortly after that, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: They left, they pulled out and left and I probably had thirty to forty-five minutes of darkness before daylight, and with my eardrums broke if anybody was saying anything I couldn’t hear it and this was the new emotion I went through, I thought I was the only man left alive on that hill, scaredist I've ever, this superseded that other scared thing I was at, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And, but I do know when daylight came, I, (1:08:00) �Veteran: I'm just kind of looking around and I seen a helmet, and that’s one of our, that’s one of our kind of helmets, and it was a machine gun off to my right, and there was three guys there and they, they seen me we did hi signs to each other and one of the assistant gunners started crawling towards me and he had two grenades and had had the pins pulled on them but he’s crawling towards me holding them grenades and I did, I've always said he looked just like John Wayne if he had had a bayonet in his mouth but he didn’t have the bayonet, but he crawled up to me and he said you know what, and I just pointed out and that’s, that’s the last place I seen any gooks is right there, and he threw both his hand grenades there and they blew up, guys were starting to stir then, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: They picked me up and choppers were coming in and they carried me up to the hill and I never seen so many bodies in my life as there was, we passed, and they were mostly gooks, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: The enemy soldiers and I remember they threw me on the chopper, and they unloaded a few men and then they threw the wounded, the wounded went first and then the dead went on the next chopper and their third or fourth chopper, but they sent me, and the man named Mike Mueller, Interviewer: Mm-hmm �Veteran: We were together, we got back to the rear and they started ripping our clothes off and dobbing us up with merthiolate, picking rocks and stuff out of us and then they sent us back to a tent that had just cots in it, and we spent the rest of the day there and the next morning which would be twenty-six hours after the battle we’re wondering about where do we get some food at, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And the nurse said, its right there's a tent right there that they, they serve food, (1:10:00) Veteran: And me and this other guy we, we, we could walk and Mike you coming with us and Mike said I, my leg is killing me, and he had shrapnel and all up and down from his ankle all the way up to his shoulder on that one side, and okay we’ll bring you back something, we went, did this and brought him back some food, well he didn’t feel like eating and got the nurse in there and he’s telling her how his leg hurts and she said can you two guys help him down to the x-ray tent which I swear is a block away and I, I, I said if we didn’t look like a mess hobbling down there with him and anyway we took him into the x-ray tent and they were working on him and doing what they have to do there, me and this other guy we’re looking at some of their x-ray pictures that are hanging up there, they brought some more out we’re looking at them and you see broken bones and what have you, well there was this one x-ray picture that showed a would channel that was probably fourteen inches long, sixteen inches long and there is a pristine �undeformed bullet right at the end of it, I, I said wow look at this, somebody had a bullet in them, and this guy came in and said hey that’s your buddy, he’s got a bullet in him, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And anyway, they gurnied him out there on the table and he said Sergeant Moyer can you go back to the tent and get my billfold and cigarettes, sure, I hobble up there, I get this stuff and I come back and he is gone, he’s on a helicopter going somewhere, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Well a couple of days later they sent me to Cam Ranh Bay to rest and relaxation, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Convalescent type deal and as I went through Da Nang, (1:12:01) Veteran: I ran into a Sergeant that was doing the flight manifests and I told him this same story and he said, I, give it to me I know what to do with that billfold that’s no big deal, and I thought about I don’t know this man from Adam, there's, there's like eighty bucks in this billfold and you know it’s got his ID card and a few other things, I said you know what the heck I'm gonna, I'm �gonna put some faith in my fellow man, I gave it to him and I didn’t talk to Mike for twenty-five years, it was about twenty-five years after the battle and I was talking to the man who wrote the book, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Keith Nolan, talked to him for an hour and a half, two hours an di got to asking him about who he interviewed, and Mike Mueller’s name came up and I says you’ve been talking to Mike Mueller and he said yeah he lives up in Alaska, and I said yeah that’s same, same Mike Mueller I know and he gave me his phone number and I remember calling Mike and you know this is Sergeant Moyer and Mike stuttered terrible, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: He, he was comical to be around, and after we introduced each other I said Mike did you get your billfold, and he said it caught up to him about six months later in a hospital and he said the money was in there, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And I said that’s a happy ending to a story right there, Interviewer: Alright now as for you, �Veteran: Yes, Interviewer: Okay so you got, you went through Da Nang, you went down to Cam Ranh Bay, Veteran: Yes, Interviewer: Okay and then did you just convalesce there, or did you go someplace else or? Veteran: No, when I left Da Nang and got to Cam Ranh Bay, well I had two months to go in the service, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And I, you know they're gonna send me home, no they're not they're gonna send me to Cam Ranh Bay and, and recover and go back to my unit, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: The only thing was the recovery took two months, (1:14:01) �Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And when I left Cam Ranh Bay, I only had like three or four days to go in the service and I got back to my unit, the company clerk gave me a clipboard and I had no idea, you know I've done, I had done this in the state sides and in Europe signed off a post, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: You go to the library, the barber shop, anybody you’ve done business with you sign off if you don’t owe them no money or anything like that and he handed me this and I said we’ve got some of these things on Camp Evans you know like a, well a barber shop, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And there was a, a massage parlor there and, and I had to go get signatures you know, of course you’ve gotta go through the supply room, the arms room, and I, I did all that, it didn’t take long but got to the arms room and I did have problems there, a man said you need to turn your rifle in, and I said I have no idea not a clue where my rifle is and, and I had to explain to him what happened when I was wounded, I said they didn’t, they didn’t give me a rifle to ride that chopper back home with, my rifle is on hill 902 is the last place I seen it, and he said well we gotta sit down and fill out some more paperwork, it is a combat loss, and but that, that’s all that that amounted to but he made me a little nervous, �Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: When he asked me for my rifle and he said we got a problem, but it was just had to do some paperwork, combat loss, Interviewer: Mm-hmm, alright so now you're pretty much back in one piece but you're also out of time so, Veteran: Still got one day to go, Interviewer: Okay, Veteran: First Sergeant came to me and he says go to the arms room, check out a 45 and get some ammo for it and I want you to go down to the chopper pad, (1:16:00) Veteran: We’ve got these coolers and they're full of sirloin steaks, I don’t know a half dozen coolers, he said I want you to make sure they get out to Firebase O’Reilly, that’s where our company’s at, they're doing perimeter guard on it, Interviewer: Mm-hmm �Veteran: And they’ve got the barbecue grill thing set up out there and see that every man gets at least one and there should be enough for every man to get two, and I thought damn I’m going back out to the field, but I said I'm gonna get to see my guys, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: This is gonna be worth it, and this is probably around noon or one o’clock and chopper came in and we loaded them on there, we flew out there and we’re doing the barbecue and I'm going down to the bunker where my squad was and I'm talking to them and they're telling me about some of the things that happened right after 902, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And you know, you know how much time they got left to go and be glad when this is over and I said well I know what you're saying and I am glad that its over for me, well I, I lollygagged around talking to these guys and it got near five or six o’clock I don’t remember what the exact time was, but I went back up to the flight pad and I asked somebody up there, I said when’s the, when’s the next chopper gonna be out here, and he said tomorrow morning, I said you mean there's no more choppers coming out here tonight, he said no you're gonna spend the night out here, I said you gotta be kidding me, well anyway I went back down to where my guys were and I said yeah you're not gonna believe this I got to spend another night here, well they had a mad minute that night if you know what a mad minute is, that’s where they test the firing of all the different positions to make sure there's not something that’s not covered, I, I �think there’s somebody up there in a helicopter a long ways away but they can watch what’s going on, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And they can see if they need to adjust any of the positions and all that, (1:18:00) Veteran: But for one minute you get to fire your weapons, you don’t get to thrown grenades and you don’t get to blow your claymore mines but you, they want to see where the firings going to and it’s about one o’clock in the morning they pop the rad flare right up there and I mean that hill lit up and I got my 45 and I'm John Wayneing it just firing it all over the, till I'm out of bullets and, and that’s that, went to bed, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Pulled the shift guard and next morning I got on a chopper, went back to Evans got on a helicopter went to Da Nang, and got manifested on a flight, and we roll down the runway and we was just screaming and hollering and whoppy indeed, I mean we were happy that plane got off the ground and somebody said get this thing out over the ocean, Interviewer: Mm-hmm �Veteran: Get it away from this country, and, and I know all the stops I had when I went over there, we were virtually non-stop going back, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: It, it, I mean it was a long flight, I was surprised the plane could go that far without refueling but, Interviewer: So where did you go to in the States? Veteran: Back to where I started, Fort Lewis Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And got that, you, that old steak dinner that everybody in Vietnam got, when we got there, we did some really, they were not very thorough physicals, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Checked our teeth and a few, if you get, it didn’t amount to a bunch, Interviewer: Mm-hmm �Veteran: And went back to the barracks and they said take your boots and tie the shoelaces together, throw them out in the middle of the floor and your fatigues and all that stuff and you can go home and yeah, I went home in my dress greens, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And a lot of guys, there were big piles of clothes and stuff there, (1:20:00) Veteran: Well I knew I’d be going deer hunting, I had a father-in-law hat loved to deer hunt and I know, so I went back there, and I found me two pairs of boots that were my size, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And I put them in my, and I remember the last place we had to check out of was the Reenlistment Officer, the guy that wants you to sign on for another tour of this, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And that’s when I told him I said done, y’all taught me how to dance and then you took me to the dance and I want no more dancing and he kind of laughed and he said I understand �and, but then it was right then they said do not deviate from your plane leaving this place here whether you get on the green bus that’s going to the train station or the yellow bus that’s going to the airport or something, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: There was another color bus too, he says do not get off this bus, the protesters are right outside the gate, and I thought you know I, I was so ni-, I didn’t even realize that kind of stuff was going on, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And I thought what in the hell are they protesting, what I mean we, we didn’t do anything wrong and, and that’s something else I want to put this on the end of this, one of the things I'm most proud of, there's a couple of things, my entire squad made it home, some of them shot up pretty bad but nobody died and the other thing is I do not remember anything we did that would be called an atrocity, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: We did what soldiers did, and I, I've always kind of felt like this is, helped me with my, my own personal healing process of Vietnam, �Interviewer: Mm-hmm, alright, now at this point you've completed your enlistment, so you did, do you get discharged or do you have to go someplace else for that? Veteran: I'm done, Interviewer: Okay, you're out, Veteran: I left Fort Lewis I was done, Interviewer: Alright, so now that you're out what did you wind up doing? (1:22:00) Veteran: Well you know I had mustering out pay, I had a little bit of money not a lot and from September to middle part of December this money lasted, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And my father-in-law and, and his wife they're, they're getting kind of nervous about aren’t you actually gonna try to find a job, and alright I guess I gotta get a job, well I went down and I, and I was probably, it’s probably the first piece but I applied for unemployment and they said well you can get it for a while but not very long, you know okay, and then it didn’t amount �to much anyway, but I remembered what I told that Enlistment Officer when I signed up that I had an uncle that worked for the phone company, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And I thought I might wanna do that, I went down to the local place here in Springfield, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: The phone office and I put in an application and they said can you come back in a, I think it was on a Friday, come back Monday and we’ll do some testing, and I did and this testing lasted two weeks and all of a sudden I'm getting paid for this, and I'm thinking now wait you know I haven’t even been hired and I'm getting a paycheck and, and I remember my clerk at that time at the phone company she asked if I was a Vietnam Vet and I said yeah I just, just really just came from Vietnam, and she says well we’re gonna apply you into an on-the-job training program the government will compensate you some money, and well hey I’ll bite this, go ahead and apply for it, well that lasted, well I didn’t get anything from that until six months after the phone company did hire me, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And at the end of the six months I got this check, �(1:24:00) Veteran: It looked like a, a tax refund check and I thought what in the hell is this all about, and oh I was just grinning at the number, what it was, it was like a hundred and twenty bucks a month but its six months’ worth of it, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Now I'm, I'm pretty poor back then, I mean we’re living payday to payday and I've just got this monster check and I went to work the following, and I asked this clerk about this, she said oh yeah that’s an on-the-job training, they're gonna supplement your income and every time we give you a raise that’s gonna to get docked a little bit, and you get this for two years, well okay the next six months it was a little less, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Next six months it was a little less and the next six, I think the last one it was fifty or sixty dollars a month, but it was a very neat deal, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Didn’t even know I was gonna get it and I got it and it, and that was tax free money, that’s, �Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Huge, it wasn’t, you didn’t have to list that as income, but, but I wound up spending thirty years with the phone company, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Kind of liked it, Interviewer: Now did you always stay in this area, kind of Missouri Arkansas, Veteran: Missouri, Interviewer: Yeah, Veteran: And southern Missouri, mostly I did get over to Boot Hill worked a little while over there and I got up to Kansas City and worked a little while up there, but always wound up back in the Springfield area, Interviewer: Mm-hmm �Veteran: And I was a lineman, a cable splicer, a repairman, and I was an installer, did a lot of different things, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: And I know now, I don’t know a lot of Vietnam vet don’t like to be around people, don’t like to be in an office with a lot of people around them and you know, and we just, we just didn’t like being in a crowd, that was, and me being with the phone company, (1:26:00) Veteran: Working by myself about you know, I, I did have to go up knock on a door to say hey I'm here to fox your phone and what have you, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: Or if I was splicing, I'm, I'm out in the ditch putting the cable together, but that’s by myself, and I always said that I felt like this helped me adjust a little bit, Interviewer: Mm-hmm Veteran: I did, I didn’t get any negative feedbacks is what I'm saying, �Interviewer: Right, alright I guess now kind of look back at the time you spent in, in the service and sort of as a whole not just Vietnam, what do you think you took out of it or how did it affect you positively or negatively? Veteran: Well I’ll say this for the military, they taught me how to live payday to payday, they taught me how to budget my money I mean when I was a private, it, its gotta last thirty days, ain't nobody gonna give you no money, and they taught me how to manage a paycheck, and that one of the best things that I think, of course I think I grew up faster than I wanted too, it’s you know I've never been responsible for other people, even when I was in Germany I didn’t feel like I was responsible for the guys, I was just the direct them with me, but in Vietnam I did feel responsible for them men, and you can’t help but worry about you know you get a new guy, you know how is he gonna fit in and is he gonna, is he gonna pull a bonehead and get somebody hurt, or what have you, and that’s a neat thing to, to experience that makes you nervous at first and when you, when you get these new people but, I’ll say this, 101st is an outstanding outfit, I think it’s the most prestigious outfit in all of military, Marines, Navy, whatever, and very proud to have had serve with them, Interviewer: Mm-hmm, and you brought all your men back, Veteran: All, you know when I went home, I still had my, but I found out later, (1:28:00) �Veteran: They all, they all made it home, then Lexi, boy they, there's a bunch of them shot up pretty bad, Interviewer: Alright well, it’s a good story and I appreciate you taking the time to tell it to me today, Veteran: Thank you Jim, (1:28:16) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_MoyerJ1962V Title A name given to the resource Moyer, Jerry (Interview transcript and video), 2016 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-10-06 Description An account of the resource Jerry Moyer was born in Springfield, Missouri, in 1948, moved to Omaha, Nebraska, in 1958 where he graduated high school. Moyer enlisted in the Army in 1967 before he could recieve a draft notice and underwent signals training and learned to string telephone wires. He was then sent to Germany where he was stationed with a mechanized infantry battalion of the 4th Armored Division in Crailsheim. When he was promoted to sergeant in 1969, Moyer's specialization was changed to infantry and he was evetually deployed to Vietnam, joining C Company, 2nd Battalion, 506th Regiment, 101 st Aiborne Division. His unit participated in the establishment of Firebase Ripcord and the defense of Hill 902 when Moyer was injured and sent to the rear. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Moyer, Jerry Dale Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, RHC-27 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/0669742892aad8dbe929e8b4b6d7909c.mp4 e6bb4ed6aac5ee54cc03224968a336f6 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/794dcfd3d657cd8a336333a89bd68397.pdf c012846db303a064d2899c0654be777f PDF Text Text GrandValleyStateUniversity Veterans History Project Joyce Mrozik (30:09) (Note* time code begins at ) Background Information ()     Born in AdaMichigan, in 1935. (10:38) Her father worked for WPA (Works Progress Administration). His job resulted in Joyce moving often during the early 1940s. (11:00) She has one sister 10 years her senior. (12:04) She was very aware there was a war going on, even though she was still a child during the early to mid 1940s. (12:33) Life as a civilian during World War II ()     She recalls seeing search lights in the skies over the cities she lived in as a child. This was very frightening to Joyce. (12:50) Sirens also were sounded with the search lights. When these sirens sounded, civilians were supposed to take cover, shut out the lights, and close the curtains. (14:18) Volunteers with in Neighborhoods would go around and ensure that the lights in all the homes were out. (15:10) Joyce attended CentralHigh School in Grand RapidsMichigan, where she was living at the time. (16:54) Joining the Reserves (1953) (17:28)     Joyce wanted to join the Reserves. However, she needed to be a high school graduate in order to do so. Joyce did not graduate but instead received her GED and used this to join the Reserves. (17:32) She joined the reserves after being inspired by all of the soldiers and military propaganda during World War II. (18:02) Joyce’s parents agreed with her joining the military. (18:35) Joyce joined the Navy reserve due to how much she liked their uniform. (18:50) Training (19:17)      Joyce did a lot of office training and typist practice. (19:40) She was trained on various firearms. This took place at the Naval Reserve Station on Monroe street in Grand Rapids. (20:31) There were dances held occasionally. These dances were very formal and were held in a big marching room on the second floor of the Reserve office. (21:54) Joyce did practice marching. She was not very skilled at it. (22:25) She would occasionally march in parades. (23:54) �  The dates brought to the dances did not need to be amongst the reserves. (24:35) She has no regret of joining the reserves. (25:23) Effects of Service (25:33)   She believes that the time in the service greatly helped her to mature. (26:03) She did not think to reenlist in the reserves but wished she had because she liked military people so much. (26:19) Life after Service (27:12)    Her husband was in the Infantry and Served in New Guinea. (27:16) He never said much about the war. (27:55) She was married to her husband in 1957 and had her first child in 1958. (28:21) Civilian during World War II (cont.) (28:54)    Her parents would horde stamps for food or other goods. (29:20) Her grandfather worked a self sustaining farm. (30:02) Because Joyce’s grandmother canned everything, the family did not struggle as much as others. (30:31) Life at the Veteran’s Home (32:15)  She visited the Veteran’s home when she was a bit younger. After she broke her hip she came to the home in July of 2010. (32:20) Final Thoughts (35:15)  She thought her time in the reserve were fun and refreshing. (35:33) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context MrozikJ1178V Title A name given to the resource Mrozik, Joyce (Interview outline and video), 2011 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Mrozik, Joyce Description An account of the resource Joyce Mrozik was born in Ada Michigan in 1935. As a child, Joyce was exposed to rationing of goods and the fears of air raids during World War II. In approximately 1953, Joyce joined the Naval Reserves in Grand Rapids, Michigan. She was trained as a typist as well as an office worker. She very much enjoyed her time in the service. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Moore, Debra (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings United States. Naval Reserve. Women’s Reserve Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-08-05 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a3366aba71ac63fc91770e38b7eabf23.pdf dde8ac78a82438f5e14042c3e4de8048 PDF Text Text MT. MORRIS CHARTER TOWNSHIP GENESEE COUNTY, MICHIGAN GENERAL DEVELOPMENT PLAN 1990-2010 A guide for policy development and development planning. The preparation of this plan was financed through a grant provided under Title I of the Housing and Community Development Act of 1974, as amended . The grant was administered by the Genesee County Community Development Program . �TABLE OF CONTENTS Page Introduction ........ . . .. .. . . .. .... . ....... • • • • • • Planning Process in Mt. Morris Township ..... . . . ......... . Goals and Objectives ..... . . . .. .. .. . . . ...... , .. . General Development ....... .. .. . .. .. .... .. .... . Housing .. ........... . .. . .. .. . . . , •. Commercial . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ... . ... . Industrial .. ... ..... . ....... . . . ... . . . .... ' Economic Parks and Recreation ' ......................... . Natural Environment ..... . .. . .......... .. ... . . . Topography .. ..... . ....... .. . . . . .... •. Soils . ... . ... . .... .. ....... . ............ . Ciimate Township Location ......... .. .... . ..... . ............. . Existing Land Use . . .. ................ .. ......... . ... . Existing Land Use Overview ... . .. . ...... . ............ . Housing and Mobile Home Construction . ..... . .. . .. . .. . . . Neighborhoods ...... . . . ... .. ............ . Census of Population . . . . ...... . .. . ..... . . . . . .. . Population Characteristics .......... . . . ...... . ...... . Labor Force Trends . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ...... . . Population Projections . .. .. .. ... . .. . .... ... .... . . Services .... . ... . ..... . ............. . . . ...... . .. . . . . . Community Facilities Public Safety Public Utilities Future Land Use Plan . ... . .... .. ......... . . . ... . Township Officers ........ . .......... . . . . . . .. .... .. .. . .... ... .. .. .......... . o o o o O o O O O O I o O O O o O O I O o O O O o Ott o Ott IO to 1 1 1 2 2 3 3 3 4 4 4 5 5 6 7 7 9 10 12 12 13 14 14 14 14 14 15 15 LIST OF TABLES Page Housing . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Mt. Morris Township Mobile Home Parks Inventory Statistical Areas ..... ... . ...... ... ......... 1970-1980- 1990 Census of Population . . . . . . . . . Population Characteristics ......... ......... Age Groups ......... ......... ........ . Labor Force Trends . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Population Projections ......... ...... ... ......... ......... ......... ......... ......... ......... ......... ......... 9 9 10 12 12 13 13 14 LIST OF ILLUSTRATIONS Page Soil Association .... ..... ........ . ......... Regional Setting ......... ......... .... ..... Mt. Morris Township Existing Land Use . . . . . . . . . Mt. Morris Township Census Tracts ......... Mt. Morris Township Future Land Use Map ......... ......... ......... ......... ......... 5 6 a 11 16 �INTRODUCTION Planning is a process which a community uses to determine how it will develop. The Mount Morris Township General Development Plan Update covers the period of 1990 to 201 O. This long-range plan is to be used as a guide for future growth and development of the Township. This plan identifies the goals and objectives which should be considered throughout the planning process and used to guide the decision-making process. The Mt. Morris Township General Development Plan Update represents a joint effort between Mt. Morris Township Planning Commission, utilizing contracted planning assistance provided by the staff of the Genesee County Metropolitan Planning Commission. This plan represents an update to the 1979-1985 plan. The content of this plan (text and maps) constitute a replacement of the 1979-1985 Mt. Morris Township General Development Plan. THE PLANNING PROCESS IN MT. MORRIS TOWNSHIP As stated, planning is a process used to determine how a community will develop. There are currently nine planning commissioners serving on the Township's Planning Commission. These planners are appointed by the Township Supervisor for three year terms. Their appointments must be approved by the Township Board. In Mt. Morris Township, Planning Commissioners make decisions on planning and zoning at regularly scheduled public meetings. See page 15 for the listing of the members of the Township Board, Planning Commission, and Zoning Board of Appeals, at time of publication. One of the first and most important responsibilities of the Planning Commission is the development and updating of this document. The Commissioners, along with their staff, conducted field surveys, held special planning sessions, and analyzed and reviewed all elements of the plan. They collaborated on the revised goals and objectives and all related maps. Public comments were received and considered prior to the final development and approval of the plan. GOALS AND OBJECTIVES Mt. Morris Township was organized in 1855. Although many things have changed, there remain large tracts of open land, and one can still find the stately homes of earlier generations in the rural area. In its urbanized areas, the Township shows many signs of modern architecture. Six thousand acres are still in active farm use according to the Genesee County Cooperative Extension Service. The patterns of change in land use are studied by the Township's planning commission. The following goals and objectives developed and approved by the Mt. Morris Township Planning Commission were one of the most significant aspects of the plan update. Goals identify the end in which we are attempting to attain. They establish the direction in which planning should proceed. The planning provides a broad description of what we are seeking, yet are specific enough to ensure a degree of measurability, and to promote public health, safety and welfare through planned change. The means in which planned change will be attained are identified through the establishment of measurable objectives. The measurable indicators aid in ensuring that the goal will be achieved. The Planning Commission has therefore established the following goals and objectives. (1) �GENERAL DEVELOPMENT GOALS As a guide to future land use decisions, the Township's planning commission has set forth the following general development goals: 1. To promote public health, safety and general welfare. 2. To avoid the overcrowding of land by buildings or people. 3. To provide orderly and efficient traffic flow on public roads and streets. 4. To facilitate provisions for a system of transportation, sewage disposal, safe and adequate water supply, recreation and other public improvements. 5. To consider the character of the Township and its suitability for particular uses in terms of such factors as the trends in land use and population development. 6. To promote the development of a full service community which encourages equal opportunity in housing, employment, and the provision of services for all citizens. 7. To preserve historically significant places. 8. To encourage the retention of existing agricultural land and open spaces. HOUSING GOALS Our goal is to maintain a suitable neighborhood environment through the orderly growth, development and preservation of a variety of housing types and styles, compatible in their arrangement to existing facilities, services, and transportation networks and open to all persons. To achieve the housing goal, the following objectives have been established: 1. To promote the construction of housing with mixed styles and types which are compatible with existing land uses and appropriately located to existing facilities, services and transportation networks. 2. To promote residential development which balances both single-family and multiple-housing development which provides variety in style, types and affordability. 3. To foster compliance of local housing codes, (BOCA) safety standards, and design standards in accordance with local plans and ordinances. 4. To alleviate substandard housing conditions through code enforcement, rehabilitation of substandard units and the removal of condemned deteriorated housing structures. 5. To support projects which include housing choices for lower income persons, the elderly and handicapped within the Township. This mat include but is not limited to the following objectives: a. Support given to the Mt. Morris Charter Township Housing Commission. b. Support for the construction of major senior citizen housing projects in suitable locations. c. Support the expansion of the Community Development Block Grant Housing Program target areas within the Township. (2) �COMMERCIAL DEVELOPMENTS To retain and support the survival of existing commercial areas and facilities and encourage commercial development in suitable areas with existing or planned public utilities. To achieve the commercial development goal, the following objectives have been established: 1. To retain existing strip commercial development and encourage revitalization through structural and environmental improvements. 2. To support the development of new commercial parks where public utility improvements and transportation arteries exist and are compatible with future land use plans. 3. To support transportation improvement projects that promote adequate, sate access to commercial areas including the utilization of service roads whenever practical. INDUSTRIAL DEVELOPMENTS To encourage industrial development in suitable areas compatible with future land use patterns. The following objectives have been established to assist in achieving the industrial development goal. 1. To support and encourage the development of light industrial districts in compatible land use areas. 2. To consider the feasibility of developing a certified industrial park within a suitable location. ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT GOALS A detailed knowledge about the local economy is an important requirement in planning for the future land use. As a result of its economic analysis, the planning commission has determined that its long-range goal for economic development shall be as follows: To maintain, strengthen, and increase the Township's commercial, office and industrial districts through diversification and support of appropriate business development which is compatible with future land uses and growth patterns. Consistent with established: the economic development goal, the following objectives have been 1. To strengthen and diversify the tax base through the support of economic development projects which will increase long-term employment opportunities for all socioeconomic groups, older workers, and handicapped persons. 2. To support the development of a large scale shopping mall within the Township. 3. To support the development of a convention center which can meet regional convention needs. 4. To support the development of a quality industrial park in a suitable location. (3) �PARKS AND RECREATION As one means of providing a pleasant, ·satisfying, and attractive community, the ~own~hip should include ample open spaces, recreation areas, and facilities and likewise provide for their maintenance. Meeting this goal would involve the coordination of recreational efforts by the Township , as well as Westwood Heights, Beecher, Flushing, Mt: Morris ar:'d Clio Schools'. plus Beec.her Water Department and the YMCA, in developing their respective recreation land and fac1ht1es, both indoor and outdoor. The Planning Commission has established the following specific objective for recreation: 1. Recreational areas should be developed and utilized to the optimum, considering the capabilities and geographic charter of each recreation site. 2. Natural conditions and habitat should be maintained where possible. 3. Recreation facilities which encourage total family involvement should be encouraged. 4. A Variety of recreational facilities and interests appealing to everyone should be provided. 5. Passive and active facilities should both be provided. 6. Recreation areas should be developed in such a way as to keep maintenance to a minimum. A complete recreational plan should meet the guidelines of the Michigan Bureau of Outdoor Recreation to be eligible for potential matching grant funds. The Planning Commission pledges its support for this effort. The Township can point with pride to the creation of the NATURE CENTER, D. HAMILTON BALL FIELD, PIONEER MILLPONDS and the D. KRAPOHL SENIOR CITIZENS CENTER, which are located within the Township's developing governmental complex on Bicentennial Parkway off West Coldwater Road. NATURAL ENVIRONMENT Topography - - The topography of the Township is generally flat and, acording to the Genesee County Cooperative Extension Service, some 6,000 acres were in active farming use in 1977. Of this, 269 acres have been preserved under the Farmland and Open Space Preservation Act. (Act 116, P.A. 1974). There's only about 100 feet of grade difference between Section 24, just to the North of the City of Flint and Section 6 in the northwest corner of the Township, roughly less than 1% overall. There are, however, some moderately steep grades along the Flint River where the grade changes as much as 27%. Along Brent Run in section 3 and 10, the grade changes some 50 feet in 250 feet or 20%. The grade generally slopes toward the west-northwest with the exception of the area in the southwest corner of the Township which slopes toward the Flint River. The only major depressions are those along the Flint River and the drainage runs. Flood hazar? areas have ~e~_n identified by the National Flood Insurance Administration. Regulation of these areas 1s the respons1b1hty of Mt. Morris Township's Building Department. (4) �Soils - The formation of soils created during the Ice Age have been altered very little in the period of time that has passed. The ground moraines or till plains are made up primarily of fine sediment and account for the major part of the soil in Mt. Morris Township. The western part of the Township lies in an area that was a lake bed or spillway, and the gravel areas in the southwest part of the Township suggest that this was an outwash plain, where deposits were sorted by the action of the water from the melting ice. The major soil type is Conover Loam, which is widely dispersed throughout the Township. While permeability is moderate to low in this soil type, it appears adequate for the density that is presently found in the Township. The soils that are not now capable of supporting urban development are located mainly along the drainage runs. Climate - - The climate conditions in Genesee County are variable with long cold winters and short summers. The mean annual temperature is approximately 47 degrees Fahrenheit and annual precipitation averages approximately 30 inches. Four distinct seasons support the development and use of year round sports and recreational activities. SOIL ASSOCIATIONS 3 9 ,, D CONOVER-BROOKSTON ASSOCIATION: Level to gently sloping, somewhat poorly drained and poorly drained loams that have a clay loam subsoil; on till plains 10 CELINA-CONOVER-MIAMI ASSOCIATION: Level to slop- ing, somewhat poorly drained to welldrained loams that have a clay loam subsoil; on uplands . BOYER-SPINKS-CERESCO_ __.COHOCTAH ASSOCIATION: 36 (5) Nearly level to gently sloping, welldrained loamy sands that have a dominantly sand to sandy loam subsoil, on outwash plains and terraces; and level, somewhat poorly drained, poorly drained , and very poorly drained fine sandy loams underlain by fine sandy loams to sand; on bottom lands. �Regional Setting TOWNSHIP LOCATION Mt. Morris Charter Township is located within the County of Genesee, situated in the east-central part of Michigan. It is bordered by Vienna Township on the North, City of Flint and Flint Township on the South, Genesee Township on the East, and the City of Flushing and Flushing Township on the West. Within its regional context, it is within a ten to twenty mile radius to Saginaw, Tuscola, Shiawassee and Lapeer Counties. Interstate 75 traverses through Mt. Morris Township in a North/South direction. The 1-475/1- 75 intercha~e provides convenient intra-county travel, as well as convenient access to nearby counties. The existence of a sound transportation network provides support for the attainment of the Township's general development goals. (6) ... "'"'°" ...... ,, f _J___ _ _ .,., .., ...... �MT. MORRIS TOWNSHIP EXISTING LAND USE MAP The exi~ting Ian? use map_ w_as developed through a structured collaborative approach involving the Townsh1p planning commIssIoners and the Genesee County Metropolitan Planning Commission beginning in October, 1989. The planning commissioners and GCMPC staff conducted windshield surveys to update the existing land use map. The existing land use inventory data was compared to the Department of Natural Resources Land Use Inventory Map for Mt. Morris Township which was completed in 1987 utilizing 1982 aerial maps. That comparative process was then followed by a further comparison to the most recent aerial maps (1987) for the Township. The updated existing land use map was then presented before the Township Planning Commission at a special plan update meeting in August, 1992 for review and changes. All suggestions and changes received were incorporated and the updated existing land use map was finalized in September, 1992. EXISTING LAND USE MAP OVERVIEW The existing land use map illustrates eleven categories of land usage. (See map legend) We find single-family housing development located primarily adjacent to the bordering developed communities of the City of Flint, the City of Mt. Morris, Genesee and Flint Townships. Institutional facilities such as schools, churches, and government facilities are often located within or adjacent to residential districts. The major commercial strip areas are located along major roadways or streets having an average daily traffic flow of above 12,000. The predominant commercial strip areas are along N. Saginaw Street, Clio Road between Pierson Road and Carpenter Road, and Pierson Road between Clio Road and Elms Road. Agricultural areas are predominantly located in the north and northcentral sections of the Township. The Genesee County Recreation Plan inventory of recreation facilities conducted by the County in 1978 identified twenty-nine (29) recreational areas in the Township. These facilities were predominantly playgrounds, playlots, athletic fields and neighborhood's parks. (See future land use map for areas) There are four major recreational facilities located within the Township. They include Beechwood Golf Course (36.0 acres), Lynn Henderson Field-Beecher Community Schools (11 acres), Mt. Morris Charter Township Recreational Complex(+/- 25 acres), and the YMCA-Pierson Road facilities (20 acres). Throughout the Township we find a number of small forested areas, as well as sections of undeveloped land. The Township has three existing mobile home park sites, (manufactured housing) and one proposed site. The sites are Diane Mobile Home Manor, located in the Beecher School District, Westwood Heights Mobile Home Court, located in the Westwood Heights School District, and White Oak Estates, located in the Mt. Morris School District. The proposed undeveloped site is located in Section 14, north of 1-475 on Stanley Road, also in the Mt. Morris School District. Within this region "manufactured housing" has become a viable means for many households to afford decent, safe, and sanitary homes when economic conditions bar them from conventional housing options. Within the Township, we find approximately four multi-family housing complexes, along with two single-family zero lot line developments and one 38 unit single-family condominium complex. (7) �I-RANCES ·----------- _--_ ' - - - - - - - -,.-_-_-_-_.::--=i'r---- -- ,,____. I PASADENA MT. MORRIS TOWNSHIP 2 �MT . MORRIS TOWNSHIP D D D D AVENUE -- AGRICULTURAL AND LOW DENSITY RESIDENTIAL HIGH DENSITY RESIDENTIAL MOBILE HOME PARK OFFICE COMMERCIAL INDUSTRIAL RECREATION :010 FUTURE LAND USE PLAN �MT. MORRIS TOWNSHIP EXISTING LAND-USE • Single Family m!J Industrial [a • Multiple Family BIB] (5§] Agricultural • Mobile Home Park 111 Office ffl Commercial Institutional !ilj Mining D and Resource Production (8) Recreat ion / Park Undeveloped �HOUSING Residential Construction by Year Table 1 Years 1970-1980* 1981 1982 1983 1984 1985 1986 1987 1988 1989 1990 1991 Total 1981-1991 Sinole-Familv Units 499 21 5 14 16 16 14 37 50 35 20 22 250 Multiple-Family As of November, 1991 , the Township has six multiple-family residential complexes. Listed below are the names, number of units, year built and typical yearly occupancy rates. Number of Units Westwood Manor Amy Jo Manor Apts. Cranbrook Manor Gordon Apartments Flushing Pines Apts. Liberty Apartments Number of Units 144 160 101 33 68 8 514 Totals Year Built Occupancy Rate 1967 1970 1970 1972 1974 98% 95% 98% 80% 92"/4 1985 98% 93% Demolition of deteriorated housing 1981 -1991 . 236 units I (Source: GCMPC Building Permit Reports and the Mt. Morris Township Building Department.) * Most of the residential construction in the early 1970's was financed and built with federal funding . (235 - 236 Housing programs) Table 1 indicates that the average single family residential construction during the 1980's was about 23 units per year. There have been no new multiple family projects constructed since the early 1970's. As new construction continues to level off and/or decline , and as the current housing stock continues to age , more attention is needed to encourge, promote and support projects, requirements, and standards which ensure housing maintenance, housing improvements, and the elimination of deteriorated structures. In order to provide a suitable living environment for all Township residents the planning commission endorses the housing goals and objectives indentified in the goals and objectives section . Mobile Home Park Inventory Table 2 FOR YEAR 1992 FOR YEAR 1986 Total Units Occupied Units Total Units Occupied Units Name of Parks 73% 110 150 80% Diane Mobile Home Park 138 111 97% 209 216 99% Westwood Mobile Home Court 216 215 316 93% 341 100% White Oak Estates 297 297 635 90% Totals 651 623 96% 707 Source: GLS Region V Planning and Development Commission Mobile Home Park Inventory: Occupied Sites, March, 1988 and Mt. Morris Township Building Department Survey, June, 1992. "' Table 2 provides an inventory of the existing mobile home parks. The existing land use map provides a reference as to the spatial proximity between the mobile home parks. The data reflects an average occupancy rate of 90% as of June, 1992, which is a 6% change from March, 1986. This change could be the result of the new constructed sites not occupied , in the White Oak Estates expansion project and the updating and expansion at Diane Mobile Home Park. GLS Region V Planning and Development Commission suggests that rapidly developing communities of mobile home dwellers is related to the limited low income conventional housing options. GLS Region V PDC notes that, " In this region , manufactured housing has become a viable means for many households to afford decent, safe and sanitary homes when economic conditions bar them from conventional housing options." The Township Planning Commission supports a balance in housing options . (9) �NEIGHBORHOODS The neighborhoods in Mt. Morris Township generally follow the five school district boundary lines. The areas of the Flushing School District, (The Western Section of the Township) and Clio School District, (The Northeast and Northcentral portions of the Township) are mostly rural with some urbanized concentrations of single-family homes. The areas of these school districts are generally characterized by medium to large single-family homes, with limited commercial strip development in Flushing along Pierson Rd . The areas located in Mt. Morris School District are generally characterized by small to medium single-family homes, with primary commercial strip development along N. Saginaw St. There are two areas surrounding the City of Mt. Morris that are characterized as a low to moderate income area which is defined in Mt. Morris Township by Census Tract 103.01 , as neighborhoods 180 and 182. (See page 12) These three areas dominate the new residential construction in the Township. The Beecher School District, which borders the Northern portion of the City of Flint, is located in both Mt. Morris and Genesee Townships. It is a neighborhood which is officially defined as a metropolitan district. This district, one of only a few in Michigan, was legally organized in 1939 in order to contract for sanitary sewer facilities with the City of Flint. A water system was added later as a metropolitan service. This neighborhood is generally characterized as a low to moderate income area which is defined in the Census Tracts 103.02, and 103.04 as neighborhoods 188, 189, 192, 193, and 194. (See page 13, Mt. Morris Township Census Tract Map.) This neighborhood represents the most urbanized concentration of the Township 's population and is generally characterized by small , single-family homes. Commercial development is along N. Saginaw St., with many small Ma and Pa type stores throughout the district. The Westwood Heights School District, the only district located entirely within the boundaries of the Township is mainly urbanized with some rural areas to the west. Its main neighborhoods are known as, the Mayfair Area, Mary Gardens-Nash Callahan Area, and the Washington Park Area. These neighborhoods also represent the more urbanized concentrations of the Township 's population and are generally characterized by small, single-family homes. Commercial strip development is located along Pierson Road, Pasadena Avenue, and Clio Road. In 1989, Wade/Trim Impact, a consulting firm, assessed the structural conditions for all residential and applicable commercial structures in selected target areas within the Township. Preliminary data based on their exterior visual survey results identified deteriorated and dilapidated conditions of 40% or more in neighborhoods statistical areas of 189, 192, 193, 194, and to a lower degree of 25% to 39% deteriorated and/or dilapidated conditions within neighborhood 200. See page 11, Mt. Morris Township 1990 Census Tract Map for the neighborhood statistical area locations, as mentioned above. STATISTICAL AREAS Table 3 Census Tract 103.02 103.04 104.00 105.01 105.02 123.00 Neiahborhood Statistical Areas 187 189 192,193,194,195 "' 196,200 180,182 (10) ------ �MT. MORRIS rn ..,,., , V i E N TWP N _ T Vv P I Source: U.S. Census Map Mt. Morris Township 1990 Census Tracts (11) �1970-1980-1990 CENSUS OF POPULATION Table 4 Census Year 1970 1980 1990 Total Change Population 0 -2025 -2730 -4755 29,953 27,928 25,198 20 Year Totals % of Change 0 -6.8% -9.8% -15.9% Source: U.S. Department of Commerce, Bureau of the Census, Census of Population U.S. Census figures reflect a continued population decline which has taken place within the last two decades. This pattern of out-migration appears to be consistent with the decline in population for Genesee County throughout this same period. This reflects a loss of over 2,000 persons for each decade noted. The loss in population during this period has been attributed to the loss in jobs occurring as a result of the auto industry recession, plant closings and its cyclical effect on related support industries and businesses. Labor force data indicates that the predominant occupational classification for Township residents consists of operators, fabricators, and laborers. The effect of the auto industry on population and employment within the Township presents clear indicators for the need to consider economic diversification. POPULATION CHARACTERISTICS Table 5 Year Category 1980 1990 Females Males Elderly - 65+ Blacks Spanish Indians, Aleuts, Eskimos Asians Households Below Poverty Level Overcrowded Households TOTAL POPULATION: 14,271 13,515 1,438 7,471 704 225 34 3,068 1,159 13,172 12,026 3,169 8 ,689 819 255 70 N/A N/A 27,928 25,198 . . Source. Charactenst1cs of Population 1980-1990 U.S. Census A _bre~down of th~ 1980 and 1~90 population characteristics in Table 5 shows a large percentage of m1nont1es (approximately 39%) 1n the Township.' The 1980 Census indicated that there are large numbers of poverty and overcrowded households in the Township. (12} �AGE GROUPS Table 6 1980 1990 TOTAL AGE 0-4 5-9 10-14 15-19 20-24 25-29 30-34 35-44 45-54 55-59 60-64 65-74 75+ TOTAL TOTAL POPULATION 2385 2464 2983 3268 2633 2076 1889 3223 3151 1291 935 1020 418 27786 PERCENT AGE 8.6% 8.9% 10.7% 11 .8% 9.5% 7.5% 6.8% 11.6% 11.3% 4.6% 3.4% 3.7% 1.5% 99.8% POPULATION 0-4 5-17 18-20 21-24 25-44 45-54 55-59 60-64 65-74 75-84 85+ PERCENT 2,151 5,557 1,187 1,431 7,280 2,798 1,297 1,202 1,559 598 138 8.5% 22.1% 4.7% 5.7% 28.9% 11.1 ¾, 5.1% 4.8% 6.2% 2.4% 0.5% 25,198 100.0% Source: U.S. Census of Population - 1980 - 1990 Note: U.S. Census report change reference to Age ranges. LABOR FORCE TRENDS Table 7 LABOR UNIT FORCE EMPLOYMENT UNEMPLOYMENT RATE 1984 Mt. Morris Twp . Genesee County State of Michiaan 11 ,600 201 ,500 4353000 Mt. Morris Twp. Genesee County State of Michiaan 11,450 198,950 4 391 000 Mt. Morris Twp . Genesee Countv State of Michiaan 10,850 187,525 4543000 Mt. Morris Twp, Genesee County State of Michiaan 10,550 183,700 4 578000 10,025 177,750 3920000 1,575 23,750 433000 13.6% 11 .8% 9.9% 10,025 177,550 4 006 000 1,425 21,400 385000 12.4% 10.8% 8.8% 9,050 160,450 4198000 1,800 27,050 345 000 16.5% 14.4% 7.6% 1986 1988 1990 11 .3% 1,200 9,350 9.8% 17,950 165,750 7.5% 344,000 4,234 000 1992 {As of May) 14.2% 1,525 Mt. Morris Twp. 9150 10,675 12.4% 22,900 162,250 Genesee Countv 185,150 9.5% 432,000 4,126,000 State of Michigan 4,558,000 Source: Michigan Employment Security Commission , Bureau of Research and Statistics, Labor Market Analysis Mt. Morris Township unemployment rates have been consistently higher than the overall rate of unemployment for the county and state as shown in Table 7. This chronic unemployment rate is indicative of the reliance on the automobile industry as a primary employer. It can be used as an indicator of the need to expand employment opportunities for area residents in the retail, service, wholesale and select manufacturing areas. Data compiled by the U.S. Department of Commerce suggests an increase in employment opportunities within the service, retail, and wholesale trade markets. (13) �POPULATION PROJECTIONS Table 8 Governmental Unit Mt. Morris Township City of Flint Genesee County Low 21,410 144,352 417,316 1990 Medium 22,943 154,685 447,187 Hiah 24,045 163,263 471,986 Low 19,404 134,399 405,162 2005 Medium 21 ,247 147,164 443,645 Hiah 23,181 160,561 484,033 Source: Genesee County Metropolitan Planning Commission The above population projections were prepared in 1977 for the local units of government by the Genesee County Metropolitan Planning Commission. The 1990 U.S. Census counts indicate that the Township 's population has declined during the past two decades from 29,953 to 25,198. Projections derived in 1977 anticipated this change as showing reductions continuing through the remainder of the century. The Township 's actual population for 1990 was within 4% of the total 1990 high population projection by the County. Although no reliable documentation is available, recession in the automobile industry has apparently contributed to an accelerating rate of out-migration as unemployment benefits, supplemental unemployment benefit funds, and Trade Readjustment Act payments are exhausted. It has become apparent that previous levels of employment in the industry will not be recovered. This factor will dramatically influence the direction of population change in Genesee County. SERVICES Community Facilities - Mt. Morris Township has educational and religious facilities that serve its varied population. There are portions of five local school districts serving the Township. The Township contains both public and private elementary and high schools. The Township continues to work towards the completion of its government center. The complex started with thirty-five acres, (located on Bicentennial Parkway, South, off West Coldwater Rd.) and the construction of the Central Fire Station and Nature Center. The Charles Dunlay Law Enforcement and Governmental Center, the Donald Krapohl Senior Citizens Center and Pavilion, an additional adjoining 20 acres, and many site improvements have been added to the complex w_ithin the last 10 years. The Planning Commission designates the completion of this facility as an important community goal. Expected additions include a separate Governmental Center, housing all Township operations except police and fire services, a library, and possible senior citizen housing. Public Safety - The Township has three fire stations staffed by Township volunteers. All stations, Beecher Fire Station, Mt. Morris Central Fire Station , and Mt. Morris Station Two, have been continuously upgrading their fire equipment so that the best possible emergency and rescue operations can be provided. The Township has also located at the Central Fire Station it's only full time ambulance facilities. This is operated by a private company. The Township has its own local, full-time police force which operates under the 911 central dispatch service of Genesee County. Public Utilities - Public water and sewers now serve only a portion of the Township. Soils in the unsewered area west of 1- 75 and north of Pierson Road contain soil associations which present severe limitations for septic tank disposal fields. The future land use map shows this area reserved for low density development. The Beecher Metropolitan Water and Sewer District acts as a separate authority and supplier of services in the Beecher area. (14) �The Planning Commission has identified these utility related goals: 1. Promote development in those areas which have existing public utilities and maintain low density development in non-serviced areas. 2. Identify priority areas for utility extension. 3. Develop a systematic approach to overall sewer and water additions. FUTURE LAND USE PLAN The Mt. Morris Township Planning Commission has identified the future land uses as shown on the map that follows. These new uses are not necessarily a result of Township population but are a result of the regional population influences. The future land use map shows the best location of the land uses for different categories of demand in the Township. MT. MORRIS TOWNSHIP BOARD (1992 - Present) Larry E. Foster, Supervisor OnaLee Strauer, Clerk Cheryl A. Azelton, Treasurer John Cronin, Trustee Bernard Deloney, Trustee Margaret Perry, Trustee Richard E. Hammel, Trustee MT. MORRIS TOWNSHIP PLANNING COMMISSION Robert Johnson, Chairman Robert Brown, Vice-Chairman MEMBERS Charles Sanders Carol Russell Larry Melchor Francis Trigger Margaret Perry Georgejean Ridley Larry Adkins Dennis K. Miller, Zoning Administrator Belenda Collins, Secretary MT. MORRIS TOWNSHIP ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS Joseph Del Marone, Chairman James Derrick, Vice-Chairman MEMBERS Bernard Deloney - Andrew Mays - Robert Johnson James J. Harrington, Zoning Administrator Belenda Collins, Secretary This plan was prepared with the assistance from the Genesee County Metropolitan Planning Commission: Chapin Cook, Director-Coordinator. (15) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Wyckoff Planning and Zoning Collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Planning & Zoning Center (Lansing, Mich.) (Organization) Wyckoff, Mark A. Description An account of the resource Municipal master plans and zoning ordinances from across the state of Michigan, spanning from the 1960s to the early 2020s. The bulk of the collection was compiled by urban planner Mark Wyckoff over the course of his career as the founder and principal planner of the Planning and Zoning Center in Lansing, Michigan. Some additions have been made to the collection by municipalities since it was transferred to Grand Valley State University. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Michigan Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1960/2023 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/870">Planning and Zoning Center Collection (RHC-240)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/NoC-US/1.0/">No Copyright - United States</a> Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Comprehensive plan publications Master plan reports Zoning--Michigan Zoning--Maps Maps Land use--planning Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-240 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Language A language of the resource eng Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Mt-Morris-Charter-Twp_General-Development-Plan-1990-2010_1990s Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Mt. Morris Planning Commission, Mt. Morris Charter Township, Genesee County, Michigan Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource circa 1992 Title A name given to the resource General Development Plan 1990-2010 Description An account of the resource The Mt. Morris Charter Township General Development Plan 1990-2010 was prepared by the Mt. Morris Township Planning Commission with assistance from the Genesee County Metropolitan Planning Commission circa 1992. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Genesee County Metropolitan Planning Commission (consultant) Subject The topic of the resource Master plan reports Mt. Morris Township (Mich.) Genesee County (Mich.) Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/870">Planning and Zoning Center Collection (RHC-240)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/NoC-US/1.0/">No Copyright - United States</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/0128f06c458147fa188ebeb387463d31.pdf 19b64e6cd626876f2bd89247a9865871 PDF Text Text ~1T . 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S . ~tastPr of LP1·emon i es : Leen Smi t h er Sel Snai i fce . 1 0 : 00 a . m. to l ~ : nu noon RP~ :i_s t r ;i t i on a n d vi s i t i n g • 1 2 :0(\ noon The fords Prayer i n Indian by Tony C~ingman . 12 : nn noon to 1 : nn o . m. Students te l ling experiences wh i le att~nding t he governmen t school . 1 : J n n . m. tc 1 : 40 D. m. Three hymns in Indian by IkP Rattice . 1 : 40 p . m. to 1: 50 p . n . M.P . I.S . schooJ 2,ong by the Ging,\·av sister.;; . 1:50 p . rn . to 2 : 0 ·1 p . m. So1o on the s::ics by Sol " fTot Lio.c:;" Sf-ialifce . 2 : n o p . rn . tc 2 :.10 p . m. ~lnsica 1 d11pt hy Nick i1ai 1 ey and r.:r i Pn ci . 2 : 10 n . rn . t o 2 : 20 p . m. ~h1sical duet hy Ca5,p r and Edythe Shahong;i . 0 2 : 20 p. m. to 2 : 40 p . m. Songs on the accordian bv Vicki ~inacher . 2 : 40 p . n . to 2 : 45 p . m. Nam i ng former st•1dent.;; re11nien jn 1()76 . \•:ho have passed a 1 ·ay .c:;ince the firs t 2 : 45 p . m. to 3 :1 5 D. m. Sing - a - long led by Alvina Ch i ngrna n. 3 : 15 p . m. tc 3 : 45 p . m. Traditjonal I ndian dancjng by the Shalifoe fam i ly ~nd ethers i n their na t ive dress . 3 : 45 p . m. to 4 : 00 p . m. Awardinq of prizes a n d dra¼ing for doer pr i zes and rJff l e . 4 : 00 p . m. to 1 2 : 0 0 midni~~t Dancj ng t o the mu.:;;ic of 11 Nich Bai 1 ev and the ;;;,,·in r:in p Nj shna1• b i eg " wi th s0·1c1 r e da nc es ca 1 1 ed by Tcny Chj np;man . 1 TH t: END CF .\ PERFECT D,\ Y ! f1i:! GhETUf ! � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Native American Publication Collection Subject The topic of the resource Native Americans Indians of North America Anthropology Indians of North America -- Michigan -- Periodicals Michigan Description An account of the resource Selected digital surrogates of published and unpublished materials from the Edward V. Gillis Native American publication collection dealing with different aspects of human culture and anthropology, with an emphasis on Native American people, events, organizations, and activities in Michigan. Includes newsletters, event programs, flyers, posters and other printed materials. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Gillis, Edward V. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/446">Edward V. Gillis Native American Publication Collection (RHC-14)</a> Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-02-21 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Relation A related resource Gi-gikinomaage-min Project (Kutsche Office of Local History) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-14 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1958-2000 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/446">Edward V. Gillis Native American publication collection, RHC-14</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-14_mt-pleasant-indian-school-reunion_1979-05 Title A name given to the resource Mt. Pleasant Indian School Alumni Reunion, May 1979 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1979-05 Description An account of the resource Mt. Pleasant Indian School Reunion flyer, Hart MI, May 5, 1979 collected by Edward Gillis included as part of his Native American publication collection. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Mt. Pleasant Indian School Subject The topic of the resource Indians of North America -- Michigan -- Periodicals Indians of North America Michigan Michigan -- Grand Rapids Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f541f87e91cbccb45f5c93f18a8f89fb.mp3 0ab57608112ece42c54f600daa935fa0 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/adbb14109bedcf5328cdbc65e9f66a16.pdf 2dbd05d34b50f028b0e1a2cb748bb926 PDF Text Text Joy Muehlenbeck and Jerry Elsinga- Interview by Jean Osmond October 4, 2018 0:02 JO: I am Jean Osmond, and I am here today to interview Joy and Jerry Muehlenbeck. And we are at the Old School House. It is Thursday October the 4 th, and 19, sorry. 2018. I’d better get my dates correct here. And this oral history is selected as part of the Stories of Summer Project, which is supported in part by a grant from the National Endowment for Humanities Common Heritage Program. And I thank both of you for coming here to talk to me today. 0:37 JM: Welcome. 0:37 JE: Did you want my last name? 0:38 JO: I should have all, I should apologize here. I’ve known both Joy and Jerry as Muehlenbecks, but it’s still Joy Muehlenbeck, but it is Jury Muehlenbeck and she’s going to say it for us right now and spell it 0:53 JE: Elsinga. 0:54 JO: Ok. And spell Elsinga for me please. 0:56 JE: E-L-I-S-I-N-G-A 1:00 JO: mm hm. And Joy would you spell Muehlenbeck too, because that’s, uh, kind of a toughie name 1:04 JM: [laugh] True. M-U-E-H-L-E-N-B-E-C-K 1:13 JO: Ok. And here we’ve got the two of them and they are going to share their information as to what they remember when they came here and when you both came up from the Chicago area, correct? 1:25 JM: yes 1:25 JE: yes 1:25 JM: Our parents bought, um, home in, uh, in this area. Actually it was on, at that time it was called Hooter Road, but, um, it’s now 66th street. 1:39 JO: Hooter was a better name [laugh] 1:39 JM: [laugh] �1:40 JM: And they bought it in 1945. But we didn’t move until 1955. Um, Dad was working, we were all living in Chicago. My dad was working in Chicago. He was working for Oscar Meyer as a driver, and they knew he had property in Michigan, and so they offered him the opportunity to move and continue working for Oscar Meyer. So he would meet, um a loaded truck, a full truck of meats in the morning, south of here, and he’d take the full truck and deliver to south western Michigan, and then he would return the empty truck the next morning for the full truck. And that’s the way it worked for several years. Later on he decided he wanted to again unite with some union job and so, he um, found another job in Chicago and um, came out on the weekends. At that time, uh, a train ran out of Chicago to Fennville. Stopped in Fennville. So we’d pick him up from the depot and return him on Sunday night, and he would go back to work, and we could continue living here. 2:53 JO: Oh 2:54 JM: So we lived in the area, had home in the area since 45, came up weekends, shoo the mice out of the house 3:00 JE: [laugh] 3:01 JM: And, and then we moved in 55. And and at time I had already graduated, I had just graduated from Chicago High School in 55, but Jerry was to have gone in the second half in the seventh grade in Chicago. They did A and B, and she would have gone into the second half, uh, but not having that arrangement here in Douglas, um, maybe, I don’t know if they gave her a test or not but, I think they took a chance on her being able to handle eighth grade and so. 3:37 JO: All they had to do Joy was just look at her and say she’s an eighth grader, and for this, this was just Joy speaking, but now we’re going to have Jerry, and you’ll be able to tell the differences in their voices as to who’s who. That was Joy, and now Jerry, what is your reaction to this? 3:52 JE: [pause]. Well. We lived on Hooter road like she said. 66th Street, and I remember coming out here, and the first thing, especially if it was in the winter my dad always had Glog on hand. 4:13 JO: What is Gluck? 4:15 JE: Glog is a wine— 4:18 JO: G-L-O-G! Oh! 4:23 JE: Glog. Yes 4:23 JO: Ok �4:23 JE: So we could warm u 4:25 JO: uh huh 4:26 JE: Because we did not have heat on. It was a summer home, so if we came out in the winter that was the way we warmed up quick 4:35 JO: [laugh] 4:37 JE: And I’m surprised Joy remembered that. Or if she did she wouldn’t say 4:40 JM: Oh I didn’t I didn’t know if we wanted to talk about our drinking on this 4:44 JE: [laugh] 4:44 JO: [laugh] 4:45 JM: On the, on this program. That was the thing, so. 4:51 JE: Oh, but it was fun. It was, uh, an old fashioned house that, um, we had to go outside for our water, a pump 5:00 JO: Oo. 5:00 JE: And we had an outhouse. And for a while we had an outhouse. 5:05 JO: One seater or two seater? 5:07 JM: I think it was a one seater [laugh] 5:07 JE: One seater. Yes. But, the first tornado, which we did not know was a real tornado, that hit, and my aunt was out here for that specific weekend. I remember I was, oh gosh. If I was 8, 9, 10. I’m not sure. But it was horrendous wind outside. And my aunt and I had used the, john 5:43 JO: [laugh] 5:44 JE: And we went out there with our head down because the wind was so horrendous. And when we lifted our head up, we did not have a potty. 5:56 JO: [gasp] it blew away 5:57 JE: and we couldn’t find it �6:00 JO: [laugh] 6:00 JE: So that’s a story that I’ll never forget. [laugh] So. It was a very scary evening. But it was worse when you couldn’t even go potty. 6:16 JM: Yeah, but you remember when you came back into the house just in tears “Oh the toilet blew away,” and our dad said “Well the hole was there, wasn’t it?” 6:28 JO: [laugh] 6:30 JE: That’s right. That’s right. Yeah. 6:32 JM: He said 6:32 JO: Your dad is practical [laugh] 6:34 JM: The other thing about that old outhouse, uh, since you’re talking about it was, um, my mom would send us out sometimes to throw some leftover food, and she’d normally throw in the garbage, and she’d say “Throw it down the hole, and don’t lose the spoon!” She 6:52 JO: [laugh] 6:53 JM: was always the last thing she’d say to me. And I remember one time going out there, and dog gone it I was holding the spoon tightly and slightly, and what happened was I lost the bowl. 7:05 JO: But she didn’t tell you not to lose the bowl. 7:07 JM: No. 7:08 JO: [laugh] 7:10 JE: And a follow up on the houses. My father lived, uh, where would you call that area? 7:17 JM: That was the Hamilton or the new, east Saugatuck area before you go into Hamilton, yeah. 7:23 JE: And he had three pole barns 7:26 JM: uh, 138 7:26 JE: Yeah. �7:26 JO: Oo 7:26 JE: And he obv, he always slept in his, um, what was it, a trailer. And um 7:36 JM: Camper 7:37 JE: Camper and trailer, yeah. And one day he had that fixed up. I mean this was an outhouse. Three holes 7:48 JO: Oo 7:48 JE: And he had uh, a sink. But of course no running water. So it was just a sink, and he decorated it and it was all. So, I remember using it one time. And I opened the door. I sat down and, closing the door I sat down, and all of a sudden this statue--- w--- what’d you call it? 8:15 JM: He called it the kilroy 8:18 JE: Kilroy. 8:19 JM: It was a dummy. 8:19 JO: [laugh] 8:19 JE: In the corner of that outhouse. Inside 8:24 JO: Oh my. 8:25 JE: Oh. I’ll tell you, I, I did not like Kilroy. No. Uh uh. Kilroy was not my favorite. So anyway. That’s the story of that. But then all of a sudden, one time he did not have his truck, the brake on correctly or something like that. And before he knew it, it backed up and it took out his outhouse. 8:52 JO: Three seater, huh? And Kilroy? 8:54 JE: And Kilroy [laugh] 8:55 JO: [laugh] 8:57 JM: But, knowing my dad his simple re, response to that was just to hang a sign on it said “Out of order” 9:05 JO: [laugh] I know where you two grew a sense of humor. 9:10 JM: He was funny �9:12 JO: That’s 9:13 JE: He was funny 9:13 JO: So happened all the time before you lived up here permanently then. 9:17 JM: No, that, uh, when we, uh, in 55 when we moved uh, uh, actually we, then the house was sold in uh, 69. Then he had his own place. He left the place on Hooter Road when our mother had died. And, uh, so then they had lived in the camper which he had moved onto property, his own property three buildings. And that was on, uh, 38 th, where she’s talking the, the outhouse. We had two outhouses. The outhouse where we lived when we first moved, and then later on when dad lived alone, he moved to property where, um, had had an outhouse there too. 10:00 JE: Now. I might have to correct you on one thing. 10:04 JM: One thing only. 10:05 JE: One thing. All right. Kilroy belonged in Chicago. 10:12 JM: Yeah, but I didn’t 10:12 JE: Where he had his bar in Chicago 10:15 JM: I think he moved it 10:17 JE: Yeah. It was a woman, in the, in the one on the other one. 10:20 JM: Oh. It wasn’t Kilroy. 10:23 JE: No, it was, had a, woman 10:24 JM: It, it was a dummy of a sort 10:25 JO: [laugh] 10:26 JE: In the corner. There. And we finally said “You have to dress her, you know?” But in Chicago he had a bar. 10:38 JM: And that’s where he had Kilroy 10:40 JE: And Kilroy was this mannequin dressed in a tux. 10:45 JO: Oh my word �10:48 JE: I was only what, 5, 3, 4, 5 years old. And I was terrified of Kilroy. He would take Kilroy and tie it to the front of his car and go through Chicago wherever he had to go. 11:06 JO: [laugh] 11:07 JE: And Kilroy was lying on top his 11:08 JO: On the trunk? I mean 11:09 JE: On the hood 11:09 JO: On the hood. 11:10 JE: On the side 11:11 JO: Oh my 11:13 JE: And the, then, you know, my mom said to my dad “Never, ever have Kilroy around when Jerry comes cause she’s terrified of Kilroy.” He forgot or, my, my mom came in surprisingly, I don’t know what it was, but I opened the bathroom door and there sat Kilroy on my toilet 11:36 JO: [laugh] 11:38 JE: And I’ll never forget that. Never 11:43 JM: The, the reason that um that our parents came up into this area was the fact that, um our mom had been born in a southern Illinois town. And after, um, her parents were no longer living. Um, at age 16, she went to Chicago to get employment. And uh, found that a bakery, a local bakery was advertising for a worker. So she applied there and she was going to work the counter within this bakery, um, and when they got to know her and like her and so on, they said “Rather than being a clerk for us, would you consider being a nanny?” They had some young children. 12:22 JO: Oh. 12:24 JM: So. She accepted that, that responsibility and that became like a family to her, being as young as she was. And then after this particular bakery family, um, retired, they bought property out here first. And it’s now the art barn on Wiley 12:43 JO: Oh 12:44 JM: But it had been the Wanzung home and that’s �12:48 JO: Spell Wanzung for us 12:48 JM: Uh, W-A-N-Z-U-N-G. Wanzung. And then, um, so then my parents would come to that, that introduced them to this community. And my dad was a city man who loved the country. My mom was a country girl who really preferred the city 13:08 JO: [laugh] 13:09 JM: But we got here. 13:09 JO: You got here. Well I’m glad you did. 13:11 JM: Yeah 13:13 JO: But now, Joy, when you said you came here, you had already graduated from high school 13:15 JM: From high school but 13:17 JO: But your sister was half way through her seventh grade year. But they put her into eighth grade here. This was a shock for you, wasn’t it Jerry? Coming from a city like Chicago High School to this school house? 13:30 JE: You have no idea 13:31 JO: K. Tell us what you thought when you first walked into this building, or didn’t want to walk into it. 13:38 JE: Well, we had seventh and eighth grade in the upper right hand corner 13:44 JO: So that’d be the room where we are right now. 13:46 JE: Exactly 13:47 JO: Ok. Where the Michigan Dunes Collection is. 13:48 JE: mm hm. And, um, there were 2 girls and 4 boys in eighth grade. K. Plus we had sixth and seventh grade also in the same. Mm hm. Ok. And, it was very difficult. Very difficult to come out of a school of, of two thousand, right Joy? 14:13 JM: A large public school you know 14:16 JE: Large. And I was so involved in tumbling, and I loved the gymnastics. And all of a sudden I’m plunked into this �14:27 JO: [laugh] 14:28 JE: and I say plunked. I didn’t know how to react. I was just very quiet I think. And then Ty Hackme 14:43 JO: I remember that name. Ty Hackme. Mm hm. 14:46 JE: And I wore double, what do you call, gian-um, my hair was up in double 14:53 JO: Braids 14:54 JE: Braids 14:54 JO: Oh 14:55 JE: Or, yeah. And he sat behind me and he clung them 14:59 JO: [laugh] 14:59 JE: So 15:01 JO: So what kind of seats did you have that he could be so close to you? Didn’t he have a desk in between or he couldn’t have leaned over couldn’t he? 15:06 JE: I’m trying to think. I’m trying to remember 15:09 JM: Were they etched, I don’t I don’t quite know 15:12 JE: I, yeah 15:14 JM: I have some real old school sets at home, and the, was like attached 15:18 JO: yeah. 15:20 JM: The front was attached to the back 15:20 JE: was attached to the back, uh huh 15:21 JM: And it looked like a train type thing, but I’m not sure what you 15:22 JE: Yes 15:23 JO: Yeah �15:24 JM: had if you had tables and chairs or 15:27 JE: No, I think it was that, that style, I think, but he just, he was was trying to always get my attention 15:37 JO: [laugh] 15:37 JE: And later, as I grew a little older, I dated the guy because he took me roller skating at the old Pavilion. 15:46 JO: Oh, so you remember that then too? 15:48 JE: Yeah. Yes 15:49 JO: Ok then, well tell me about that, and then we’ll come back to the school here and how you grew up and what else was here. 15:55 JE: Yes 15:55 JO: Ok, then tell about the Pavilion, what it was like going there. 15:58 JE: Oh it was awesome to, to, to not only see that building, but to, uh, there was a movie theater to the left of it. 16:12 JO: Mm kay. How did you get in the building? Tell us that. 16:14 JE: Well 16:15 JO: How did you get into the Pavillion? Do you remember that Joy? 16:17 JM: Well the movie theater was on ground level. As I remember, I never, I never was in the, the dance area or roller skating area. And, and I think that was like at a second level 16:30 JO: yeah 16:31 JM: I think it was from the movie, or else the movie, or the theater was to the side of it. I’m not sure just how that worked 16:38 JE: I think there were two steps up into it 16:41 JM: Could have been 16:42 JE: Two steps. No more than three. But when you went in, it had been of course a big dance hall �16:52 JO: Mmhm. That’s what I head 16:53 JE: And, um, of course at that time, young children weren’t allowed in there, but when it became a roller rink, then that’s when he taught me how to roller rink 17:09 JM: skate 17:09 JE: skate. 17:10 JM: [laugh] 17:10 JE: in the rink. But because, of course, oh he was great at it. Oh my gosh. He could just swing around that place like no tomorrow, and I’m on there just fumbling 17:20 JO: [laugh] 17:22 JE: Because I didn’t know how. And, but he taught me how to roller skate, and uh 17:29 JO: Did you forgive him then for pulling your braids? 17:32 JE: At that point yes 17:33 JO: Ok. [laugh] 17:35 JM: He was a very interesting young man. He called the house one time when I answered the phone. And he identified himself as Ty, and he was “I, I wonder if I could come over and see Jerry.” So I said, “Sure, you know. Come on” and he said “I’ll run right over.” When most people say “I’ll run right over,” they mean, you know, get in the car and drive, but he didn’t come, and he didn’t come, and he didn’t come. He actually had run over. And we were probably three miles, four miles. 18:03 JE: Oh yeah. 18:04 JM: From the, from Douglas, but he, he, um 18:07 JE: yes 18:08 JM: Ran over. There was one other thing when we were picking up on that theater. They changed their film every night. 18:12 JO: Oh really? 18:13 JM: Yes. So you could have a different movie. And my mother loved to do movies. So she and I would do the movies. Oh, um �18:21 JO: How much was it to go to the movie? 18:23 JM: Um, I can’t remember, but it was very, I mean, uh 18:25 JE: fifty cents? 18:28 JM: I remember, uh, Jane Vends (?) telling me what it cost to dance, but I don’t remember what I got, ten cents, 18:32 JO: laugh 18:32 JE: [laugh] 18:34 JM: I don’t remember 18:35 JE: It could have been ten cents. 18:38 JM: to get in there, but it was very inexpensive, but, um, I could drive. My dad left the car for us so we could have it during the summer. I could drive. I was fearful of crossing on the bridge. Crossing the bridge. So, what we, my mother and I, would do is park in Douglas, and we’d walk across and walk down to the film. Well that worked fine until one night when we were ready to return, it was pouring. It was a terrible, terrible storm. And we had to walk through that storm and across the bridge 19:11 JO: Cross the bridge. Oh. 19:12 JM: And, and she, I remember her saying, “I really believe, I really believe you could cross this bridge with the car. I think you could.” I kind of did it from then on 19:24 JO: You drove over 19:24 JM: Drove to Saugatuck [laugh] 19:27 JE: Boy. I must have been, I don’t remember that 19:28 JM: No, you weren’t with us 19:30 JE: I must 19:32 JM: I don’t know why, but [laugh], maybe it was an x rated film and you were too young. 19:36 JE: That could be �19:37 JO: Maybe, they didn’t show X rated films 19:40 JM: [laugh] Well, I can’t remember, but could be. 19:44 JE: But it was a beautiful area, and then, when I was old enough, and I, uh, all those boats that were out, out there and you know 19:54 JO: Oh in the 19:56 JE: And they were two and three and they were huge boats. I shouldn’t even say boats. They were huge. They came from Chicago. Yachts! 20:01 JO: Yachts! The, the wealthy and 20:02 JE: the wealthy yachts. And oh, it was fun to walk on that board walk. 20:08 JO: Right outside of the Inn? 20:10 JE: Yes 20:11 JO: Ok. I’ve seen picture of it. 20:12 JE: Yes. The Pavilion was my stomping ground when I was old enough. I loved that place. 20:19 JO: Ok. So you would go roller skating there. You could go to a movie there. What else what other activities did they have there, do you remember? 20:25 JM: They had a bar too, I remember that was 20:27 JE: Oh yeah. Downstairs. 20:29 JM: uh, being in the, being in the 20:30 JE: right that was Red Skeller 20:32 JO: Red Skeller, ok. I remember that, yeah. 20:33 JE: That’s where the dancing was, and the bar. And um 20:40 JM: I don’t know if the Red Skeller was in the, um, big Pavilion. Or if that was in Coral Gables. I think 20:47 JE: Oh �20:49 JM: Coral Gables. 20:51 JO: Didn’t you get to the Red Skellar by going outside and then going kind of down. 20:54 JE: Down. Mm hm 20:56 JO: That’s what I always heard, but I could be wrong. I dont’ know. 20:58 JE: Boy I’m not sure now. Joy 20:59 JM: I thought it was at, I thought it was at Coral Gables but 21:01 JE: I think when the yachts were here 21:04 JM: I remember being um, I had gone to um, uh, Western Michigan University and, um, during May, uh, 1960, was the blaze which took down the Pavilion. 21:17 JE: Yes 21:18 JM: So I was 21:19 JE: It was early in May wasn’t it? 21:20 JM: Yes, in May. 21:21 JE: Mm, yeah. May 6 21:22 JM: I was home 21:24 JE: I remember that cause I cried. I was out of school, and I, I saw it go down. And oh, yeah 21:32 JM: Yeah. When Jerry was, um, uh, here, at, um, the Union School I was, um, pursuing teacher training. I had been enrolled in the Chicago Teacher’s College in Illinois, and of course when we moved I wanted to move with the family. And I was told of a program, it was called Allegan County 21:54 JE: Yes. I remember 21:55 JM: And, it had been in Allegan, the city of Allegan, for forty-nine years, and for its fiftieth year it was moving to Saugatuck 22:03 JO: Oh really? �22:04 JM: And it was located in one of the rooms off the, um, high school, which at the time was where those condos are now. 22:13 JO: Up on the hill 22:13 JM: On the hill. On Allegan Street and Elizabeth. Right was there. And we had a room in that, in that school. And that was convenient because we could do our student teaching right in the building 22:26 JO: Oh, in Saugatuck 22:27 JM: Right there, and um, um, and we only had a one-year program, and we were expected then to teach in, to teach in a one room school or two room school within the county. And, uh, Ottawa county did not have a normal school, so there were Holland people that came to Saugatuck to be part of that normal school. And you talked before, was there a difference between the Chicago schools, remember I had graduated from a Chicago High school and 23:01 JO: How many were in your graduating class? 23:01 JM: it was 23:02 JO: A thousand 23:04 JM: It was you know like, I never knew how to spell principal, and now I was one. You know? 23:08 JO: [laugh] 23:08 JM: yeah. Well. It was like, what is a one room school? What is a two room school? Kind of thing. And, um, at the time I had um, a job waitressing at a place called Simmons’ of Saugatuck. It was on Butler Street in Saugatuck, and it’s where Glick is now. And I worked for Dorothy Simmons. And, uh, the operation was breakfast til two o’clock. Eight to two. Then we closed. And then we reopened at five, and were open from five to eight. Don’t like that split shift because you could hardly get to the beach and do anything, and then you had to be back to work, and um, I know that, um, a number of our customers, um, were from Castle Park and so on, 23:57 JO Oh yes 23:57 JM: Which was kind of an elite area 23:58 JO: Yes, it was �23:58 JM: Um, on the southwest side of the city. And they would come down for dinner. I remember that. Um, I remember working with, um, um, oh, twin women who one of whom dated um, Green, um, what did we say his first name was? Not Robert, but his brother. 24:19 JE: Um, Marshall 24:20 JM: Marshall. Marshall Green dated one of these women. So wanting the women to finish up quickly at night so he’d come and he’d help us. 24:28 [phone ringing] 24:30 JM: He’d come and help us clean up you know. And so, he would move the chairs all around, you know, the whole bit. That, but, I was with Simmons’ of Saugatuck. I worked with, uh, Gala Davis 24:45 JO: Gala Davis 24:46 JM: Davis, and she was from the Davis family. Some of whom own Chicken as you like it of Saugatuck. That was her uncle I think. 24:55 JO:W—and where was that located? 24:56 JM: At, um, it was also right down town. And I, um, think it was, I don’t know if it was on Butler for sure. I think it was, but I’m not sure which of the buildings because it was kind of closed at the time that I got involved in the area, but, um, I was telling Gala, one of the Davis’ three children, I was going to start teaching the next day 25:20 JO: [laugh] 25:20 JM: And, um, and I said “I’m kind of nervous about it, you know” and Gala said “Hey. Mother’s been teaching for years. I live right in Saugatuck.” She said. “Come on up, and uh, meet my mom.” So um, that’s when I met Edna Davis. Edna Navit (?) Davis. And they had the big house across from All Saints Episcopal Church. Across Grand 25:42 JO: Ok. 25:42 JM: So their, their house was on the corner of Grand and Hoffman. It’s a beautiful place now, owned by somebody who has gorgeous landscaping and they, anyway, after their death then their son Dave lived there before he sold it. But, and I bought my house, where I’ve lived since 1970, from the Davis’ 26:06 JO: From the Davis’? 26:06 JM: Yes �26:07 JO: Oh, my word, what a big circle 26:08 JM: Yeah, they, from the Davis’. So it was really quite nice. And I remember that little tea room which the Simmons’ of Saugatuck was 26:18 JO: Work until two, and then had a break from five to eight, right? 26:20 JM: Yes, yes, at the restaurant, and I remember we were told never tell a customer we don’t have a cold cereal they might ask for. Whatever they ask for, we have it. Then I had to go out the back way, go around to a grocery store in town, and understand that’s where Pumpernickels now stands. 26:40 JO: Oh. 26:41 JM: And buy that. And buy cereal 26:42 JO: And buy that cereal? 26:43 JM: And come back and go through the restaurant and serve it like 26:48 JO: [laugh] Of course we have it. 26:50 JM: Well then after a while we had a shelf full of cold cereal, and Mrs. Simmons’ would say “Now we have enough choice here, you know.” She’d get after the young man that did dishes because he was always soaked, you know. His shirt, his clothing, and she didn’t like him looking that, even if he was in the kitchen, and she got on his back about it. So then he got a plastic apron, and he got around with his shoes going [squishing noises] 27:16 JO: [laugh] 27:16 JM: [laugh] all the water was in his shoes. 27:18 JO: What a memory, oh my word. How many, how many people did you serve, or how big a restaurant was it? Were there five tables? Eight tables? 27:28 JM: I don’t know. It could have served fifty people or not, I bet it wasn’t, I bet it could have served somewhere between, um, thirty and fifty. It was a quaint little restaurant. It was a popular restaurant, and it couldn’t, just a lot of fun working for, uh, for Mrs. Simmons. And, uh, um, while we’re on Butler Street, unless you’d like to move us off that street. 27:56 JO: Oh, no. Let’s stay on Butler Street �27:57 JM: Walking around Butler Street, um, I liked to say a word for the Oosting (?) family. Now Oosting’s was a furniture and appliance store. They, um, in the beginning when we first moved they were only on the east side of Butler. And then they bought what again is the Glick building. They were in there sort of on both sides of that. And just yesterday I had Bob Oosting visit my home about a chair that I’d bought from him. And I pulled out a file, a paper manila file, with Oosting’s on it. And he said “You have a file?” and I said “Bob, we bought our first appliances from you, my family, in the fifties. Colored TV had just come out” 28:44 JO: Oh my word 28:44 JM: And you know people didn’t buy a television the basis of the technology of it. They bought it as a piece of furniture. So, because it was. It was always in casing 28:56 JO: Casing yeah. 28:56 JM: A beautiful 28:58 JO: That’s right 28:58 JM: And you could choose oak or maple or whatever. And I remember, buying for my parents this very lovely, um, TV. Uh, it was a color television from Bob Oosting. And I said to him yesterday “Bob, I thought that when you’d sold the store this past year, that you had taken off to parts unknown.” But the truth of it is, behind those uh three or four stores that are being, that have been remodeled on his, on the east side of Butler there is um, a store in the back that’s not accessed from Butler. 29:38 JO: From the front 29:38 JM: Go, just a little alleyway back, then you go in, and he’s sharing, he will be sharing with a woman that’s going to, uh do what they call staging 29:50 JO: Oh yes 29:51 JM: By, uh home, you know make it look nice, and Bob’s going to do appliances there. So, uh, so he’s still operating from from Saugatuck and, um, but he was impressed, and I said “well, you are a fixture in this town. You’re family.” They must have started that business in the forties maybe 30:10 JO: Because they were here before you came. 30:11 JM: Yes. And, and after his parents died, then he and his sister, uh, operated it, and then after she, after her death, and now Bob has kind off being going, you know, solo on it but I thought for sure he had um, he had uh �30:29 JO: Said enough 30:29 JM: Left the area. You know. Yeah 30:32 JO: Well that’s neat. Spell Oostings for us 30:35 JM: O-o-s-t-i-n-g. You know. That. We were the first family of our immediate grandparent and so to, to move this way out of Chicago. But then our grandparents moved in the Fennville area, and Grandpa Fred Muehlenbeck was a custodian at Fennville Schools 30:55 JO: That’s right! 30:56 JM: Yes 30:56 JO: I remember him 30:58 JM: Yes. And he, and he was just the kind of guy that if he saw a child without mittens or a hat or whatever 31:05 JO: Yup, he 31:05 JM: He’d go home with the story, and then he got grandmother involved, and you know the whole bit and 31:10 JO: That’s right 31:11 JM: And then my aunt and uncle moved, um. My aunt’s name was Lorraine Milnky (?). And she, um, had a sewing room. She altered the clothing from the different stores, wherever they sold men’s usually men’s trousers, men’s pants. They would call her and let her know they were sending up a customer, would she measure and sew. So she did all the alterations. And she lived just a little bit east of me, so she was on the corner of Elizabeth, where the high school is. Elizabeth and, uh, Hoffman. Right on that corner that now is an entrance to the high school parking lot. Yeah. 31:54 JO: And then you would go to the left or go north to the high school now 31:56 JM: Yeah, yeah. She was south, south of the actual building. And she was there, and um, on neither my mother nor she drove, ever drove. Because in Chicago you didn’t have to. 32:08 JO: You didn’t need to. 32:09 JM: You had public transportation, the subway, you had the bus you know but. So, my aunt became a part of a small group of seniors who thought wouldn’t it be cool if we could have some sort of transportation in this community. So they, um, they went to Allegan, and they did �all the petitioning and everything they had to do on behalf of the people here, and in 1980, the inner urban started running. And, uh, I know that you probably interview Phyllis Ike (?) who’s the director there. Um, but I think she can tell that, in the beginning it was just a godsend to the people who couldn’t drive, maybe because they were elderly, maybe because they were disabled in some way, but today just so many people. I mean it’s only fifty cents for a senior to ride it, you know? 33:03 JO: [laugh] you can’t beat that can you? And I’ve seen it out here on Blue Star and so on 33:07 JM: And, and they have a lift. So you tell them when you call the bus, “I would like the lift” and I mean, you have to be in a chair or on a walker, but they have a platform that just comes right down. And you just walk right onto it and get into the bus. And um, I’m working with Phyllis right now to get an arrangement for chamber music because the problem with our patrons is parking. 33:35 JO: That’s right 33:36 JM: They get into Saugatuck 33:37 JO: there’s no place 33:37 JM: And they can’t find parking. So I’m trying to work out a plan whereby they would go to the high school at 7pm, there would be a bus that would take them down to the women’s club. 33:45 JO: That sounds good 33:46 JM: And then at 10 pick them up. Take them back to their cars. And um, so Phillis says she doesn’t know why that won’t work on a Friday. Cause they provide the services anyway on Friday. If we were to do it on Thursday, which is another night of the concerts, um, we’d have to pay for the driver’s time, you know, but even so. 34:06 JO: Well good luck with that. 34:06 JM: Yeah 34:07 JO: And speaking of transportation, Jerry, when you first came here to this building, how did you get here? Did your dad drive you? Joy could probably drive then? How did you get to 34:19 JM: I didn’t go across the bridge, remember? 34:21 JO: Oh, right. That’s right. You didn’t have to because you lived there. 34:24 JE: How did I �34:24 JM: [laugh] 34:25 JO: How did you get here? Cause you lived that way. South of town 34:28 JE: On Hooter Road 34:29 JO: On Hooter Road. But how did you get here? I’m sure you didn’t walk. 34:33 JM: You went on the bus. 34:34 JO: Oh did the school have the bus? 34:34 JE: There was a bus 34:34 JM: Yeah 34:35 JO: Saugatuck/ Douglas School bus? 34:36 JM: Yeah 34:37 JE: Probably. Ok. 34:39 JM: Yeah 34:40 JO: So it would pick you up. 34:41 JE: yeah 34:42 JO: Now did the front of the building look like it does now? 34:46 JE: Oh no. 34:46 JO: Tell us. What was different? 34:47 JE: It just looked old 34:49 JO: [laugh] you mean now it does, now it looks young? 34:52 JE: Well it’s had a renewal 34:56 JO: Well now, when you walked in the front doors and you said that you were in the building which we are right now. Just upstairs on the right hand side as you face the building. How did you get up here? Were there stairs in the center like there are now? Were there �divided stairs? Where were the bathrooms? We talked about bathrooms before. Did you have a fire escape? I can remember I had a fire escape that looked like a big smoke stack. You’d slide down and use wax paper to make it more slippery. How did you do that? Do you remember Jerry? 35:24 JE: Well you took the photos, right? 35:25 JM: Yeah. But you had, wasn’t there a long stairway when 35:29 JE: Yeah 35:29 JM: When you first walked in? 35:30 JE: Yes 35:30 JM: I, there was a stair way. Yeah 35:42 JE: Yeah. 35:34 JO: In the middle then? Right out the doors? When you walked in the doors you walked right up? 35:37 JM: I think it was 35:38 JE: Yeah. That’s going back 35:39 JM: I wasn’t here very many times, um, and I think there was there too 35:42 JE: Yeah. There were stairs. And, uh, I must have gotten here by bus because my mom didn’t drive. My dad was in Chicago, so I didn’t walk it 35:52 JM: Yeah. I’m trying to think, probably my recall on the bus deals more with when you were picked up to go to Fennville High School, but you still had to have a, must have had a bus to get here because I know that I didn’t provide that particular, uh 36:07 JE: And I don’t think Ty ran 36:08 JO: No I don’t think he would carry you on his back like [laugh] 36:12 JE: [laugh] 36:12 JM: [laugh] I don’t think so �36:16 JO: What about the bathrooms here? Were there bathrooms? Indoor bathrooms or did you have outdoor privies? 36:20 JE: No, we had indoor 36:22 JO: And so it was much more 36:23 JE: Yeah 36:23 JO: Up to date. OK 36:24 JE: yeah. Yeah. Um, but there was just, it, it was such a change from coming from 2,0001500, probably school in Chicago, and then out here to a school with 6,7,8th grade in it. It, it was, it was quite a shock. 36:49 JM: Didn’t you have trouble with your lunch disappearing for a while? 36:52 JE: Yeah. I think it was Ty Hackney again 36:54 JO: [laugh] 36:55 JM: I think it was a dog. 36:56 JE: That could be too. But I re- I remember that I would, um, well I would get to school somehow. So it had to have been a bus because nobody else could bring me. But, um, I’m trying to think. I lost track of what I was going to say 37:15 JO: Well you had the lunch, you had to bring your lunch. They didn’t have hot lunches here. 37:18 JE: No. No. Absolutely not. We had to bring our lunch and 37:22 JO: And if your lunch were still there at noon did you eat it in the room, at your desk or go outside depending on weather or what? 37:28 JE: Right. Outside if it was, you know 37:31 JO: Nice 37:32 JE: Nice. Otherwise yeah. We had no other choice except to eat it, you know, in the classroom. 37:42 JO: Where did you store your lunch when you came in? Was there a shelf or something where you’d put it? And that’s where yours disappeared? �37:46 JE: That’s all I remember. 37:48 JO: What did you do when you didn’t have a lunch? 37:48 JM: I remember your crying about your lunch, but I thought a dog had come into the building and taken it. [laugh] Maybe I’m wrong 37:56 JE: Well, I also cried I know when, first day I came home and said “He pulled my pig tails. I don’t want to go back there. I, nuh uh. This was not for me.” Not when someone could just, you know, like they’re milking a cow. I remember that. I got used to it, obviously, and um graduated. 38:23 JO: Ok. What age was graduation. Well wait no. Before we get to graduation. When you were in Chicago you had probably several eighth grade classes. Where you were in a classroom where you had science or math or whatever. But here you just had these few kids, and the teacher couldn’t meet with you all the time, could she? 38:42 JE: No. 38:44 JO: Ms. Hevit (?) teach you there? 38:44 JE: Mrs. Ramp (?) 38:45 JO: [gasp] Did she live in Fennville? 38:48 JE: I believe so. She was our teacher. 38:51 JO: What was her first name? 38:52 JE: Uh, 38:54 JO: Wilma? 38:55 JE: Wilma Ramp. Yes. And I, in my photos that I pulled the three teachers. Hathaway, Ramp, uh, there was one other. [pause]. It’s in one of those, you know photos that I have here 39:10 JO: In one of those photos. Mrs. Ramp was your teacher? 39:14 JE: mmhm. 39:15 JO: What’d she’d look like? 39:16 JM: [laugh] �39:18 JE: Oh 39:19 JO: Oh dear. Maybe this is dangerous, huh? Was she? 39:22 JE: Tall 39:23 JO: Tall, ok. 39:25 JE: and, and, not thin, but I mean she was, 39:29 JO: She was solid 39:31 JM: Oh solid 39:31 JO: Was she cruel? 39:32 JE: Oh no 39:33 JO: She was a nice lady? Oh good. 39:37 JE: I loved her [laugh] 39:37 JO: Oh that’s good. Because if she was mean 39:39 JE: She helped, she helped ease me into such a change. 39:48 JO: So she was very, very compassionate as far as you were concerned? 39:52 JE: And, um, she was a great lady. 39:55 JO: And you didn’t feel as if you were missing out on your education? Or did you? 39:57 JE: No. Um. It was a major adjustment. I didn’t have a choice, so at twelve years old I just did the best I could as far as adjusting, and, uh, I think I adjusted quite well. Quickly. 40:20 JM: Yeah you did pretty well. You’re a pretty well-adjusted person I think. Pretty well. You know 40:20 JE: The first day crying. 40:24 JO: [laugh] �40:26 JE: When I came home that first day I cried. I’m not going back. I remember telling Mom that. I’m not going back 40:34 JO: And what did Mom say? 40:35 JE: Well. Of course Mom says “Oh yes you are.” So. 40:41 JO: And don’t drop the spoon, right? 40:42 JM: And don’t drop the spoon. But you know, then after this, after the school closed, um, you know then apartments were made here, and, um, I have a friend my age [clears throat] excuse me, who lives in Tucson, Arizona. Kay Schrkeckengust. 41:00 JO: Kay. She worked with us at the Red Wood. Ok. 41:02 JM: Yes. Kay Schreckentgust. Now Kay Spencer. And her dad, Nolan, was the person who worked on, on, uh changing this building into apartments. 41:13 JO: That’s right 41:13 JM: Yeah 41:14 JO: He. Spell Schreckengust for us. 41:16 JM: S-C-H-R-E-C-K-E-N-G-U-S-T. 41:25 JO: Joy, you are, you are an instructor there. 41:25 JM: And you know she’s exactly six months older than I. To the day. 41:30 JO: Really? 41:31 JM: So we mock her about being the older woman. And then I mock her, say, so how’s it working. How’s it working? Can I make it? Yeah. It’s a good six month, you’ll make it through. When she celebrated her 80th birthday, six months before I did, uh, she came to Douglas, and she had out at the family home of Karen Schreckengust who, um, has since died, but she and her nieces were there in Douglas, well, it’s really the Fennville address area. But anyway, um, the whole theme was The Wizard of Oz. And the food, everything was thematically arranged. Remember that, Jerry? 42:13 JE: yeah 42:14 JM: It was a beautiful, a beautiful you know. Everything was perfect. And then what happened, but we got tornado warnings. I mean, could that have been anymore perfect? �42:26 JO: Oh no, that’s right. 42:28 JM: Oh my gosh, you know. But, um, the nieces 42:30 JO: Did you have Toto with you? 42:31 JM: [laugh] yeah. We had red shoes and the whole thing. Til one of her nieces, Dawn, who was an EMT, and had gotten notice that you know, that this was in the area. It did strike in the area. Um, it wasn’t a full-fledged tornado, but it was a heavy, you know, a real heavy, heavy wind. And I don’t know if it was to the degree that it was labelled that, but we were down in the basement and we couldn’t believe, 42:59 JO: here we are for this party and 43:00 JM: And someone said that I believe that, uh, I’d like to know who her party planner was, you know. 43:10 JO: [laugh] 43:10 JE: Well that could have been your birthday party too 43:11 JO: Yes, exactly 43:15 JE: And, I want to bring up my dad. Because when he moved out here, I’m trying to think. When was he a policeman? He worked 43:22 JM: Uh, he worked as a security guard 43:25 JE: as a security guard, right. And he worked out on a boat. Now I’ll never forget, when the boat moved away, he went to put his foot on to get on to the dock. And the boat moved and he’s straddling the dock and the boat moved. It did, and plunk, he went down 43:45 JM: Yes. He worked for the Allegan County, uh Sheriff’s Department Marine Division, and that’s when that particular happened. Yeah. Could have been 43:58 JO: That could have been real hairy 43:59 JM: Real dangerous right. 44:01 JO: Where were, where were the boats moored then? That he was going to get out with 44:06 JM: Uh, well now they’re at the museum across the, the one that’s across the, I don’t know if that’s where it was. I mean it was on the other, this side of the river and time �44:16 JO: On this side 44:16 JM: But, yeah, I think right next to the, I think, isn’t that true when you take the pontoon, don’t you see the Sheriff’s boat, um, docked by the south side of the museum there 44:26 JE: Oh yeah. By the museum. Right. 44:32 JM: But I, I think it might have been on the other side at that particular time, but, um 44:33 JO: Yeah. Yeah. I think so 44:40 JM: That was, that was a time when um, he, he liked his job very much, and he was always on the water. Sometime he was back in the jail area. And he bragged about being able to get, remember, a haircut and um, oh what else did he get. A haircut and a carwash. For five bucks. And I said, Dad, what did they use to cut your hair? What do you think? They used a knife or a scissors or whatever. They trust these, they’re prisoners. He said “Oh, but they’ve done nothing serious. They got a year behind on alimony or something. You know.” 45:20 JE: Oh yeah. My dad was a very very trusting and loving person. 45:28 JO: This was in Allegan County then, where he, where the jail was. Oh my word 45:29 JM: Yeah, but, but, but he, when he went to Allegan County to 45:43 JO: For his hair cut and his car wash. Oh my goodness 45:36 JM: Haircut. Yeah. He was. But I, I remember talking about lunch too when we bought lunch in the school, um, my first school was the Colf school 45:45 JO: Tell us where that is, yes 45:26 JM: And, and that is that was on 58th, which runs between Fennville and Holland. And if you took Old Allegan Road to where it T’s at 58, and you look a little to your left, there’d be a little knoll, and that’s where the one room school was 46:02 JO: And if you went down from there you could go down into New Richmond, correct? 46:05 JM: Yes. That was a look right, that was a little bit beyond it, but this was 46:05 JO: Ok, little funny road on there, ok, but about the Colf, spell Colf 46:10 JM: C-O-L-F. I think it was after somebody. I was going to look that up someday, but I didn’t so, but I think it was named after someone in the, in the community. But, um, I �remember the kids, um, had to carry their own lunch. And, um, they would often share something with me. You know, maybe an apple, maybe a piece of cake of some sort. Uh, and I was impressed that they would care enough about me that they would want to share their food until one day I took, I heard a couple kids talking, and one person said, “Hey if you don’t like that give it to Miss Muelenbeck. She eats anything.” 46:50 JO: [laugh] 46:53 JE: And she did. (pause) Still does 46:56 JM: But I had, I had one black family in my, in my school. All eight grades and one black family. And I remember when it was so stormy, such a tremendous snow storm that, um, Mr. Hornsby came to school, and he said “Blue Star’s been closed.” And so you won’t be able to get back, um home 47:19 JO: the, the road. Blue Star Highway. Ok. 47:21 JM: The road. Blue star, uh road. 47:23 JO: Now, who is this man? Mr. 47:24 JM: Hornsby. H-O-R-N-S Horns B-Y. 47:29 JO: b-y 47:29 JM: y 47:30 JO: and he was a what 47:31 JM: He was a dad of, uh, of two of the kids 47:34 JO: Of the kids 47:34 JM: Yeah. And he just came to the school because we didn’t have a phone. You know. So he came to tell me that, and he also came to invite me to stay at his home. He and his wife had talked about it, and they wanted to house me that evening. And I’ll tell you, talk about a gracious family. Uh, the towels had the Chesepeake, or the Chessy cat on it because he worked for the train company 47:59 JO: Oh! For the train company. Ok. 48:04 JM: [laugh] But it was a delightful, delightful experience, but, they, it was a very strong community at that time, and, uh, a very conservative community. Cause I still remember my very first interview, uh for teaching, and they didn’t ask if I knew anything about teaching �reading or about math. They asked two questions. Number one: would I open with devotions every morning? And did I dance? 48:32 JO: Oo 48:33 JM: And I knew what they were asking with the dancing. And I said “Yes, I will open with devotions.” So far as dancing I said “No, I don’t.” But I said “I don’t by choice. Um, I know people enjoy it, and that’s fine. I simply don’t choose to do it. It’s an interest that I don’t have.” But I knew what they were after 48:55 JO: After, that’s right 48:55 JE: Yeah. 48:59 JM: But, uh, you know, it’s interesting. It’s a wonderful community. I was there three years. And every month they had a community dinner, potluck. And my mom would go with me, and the kids would pump her for information. “Does Miss Muehlenbeck do dishes?” Does she do this? I remember my mom saying to them one time, “Oh, I use Joy for my dishes for a long time. 49:24 JO: Oh! [laugh] good pun, good pun. How many kids did you have in your classroom? 49:28 JM: I had about twenty, twenty-three to twenty-five, but that, that was 49:37 JO: In each grade? 49:37 JM: In individual kids. But some of them were families, you know. Two or three might be from one family. I, I don’t know if you know Joanne Deyoung. She works at Christian neighbor. She’s um, one of the head persons over there, um, and she had been my fifth grader. Uh, so, and then she had a couple of brothers in the program too. For my seventieth birthday, uh, my family gave me a gift of a reunion. So I had the kids come back 50:04 JO: Oh how neat! 50:04 JM: And we stood in the same arrangement as we had for, uh 50:08 JO: For a class picture? 50:08 JM: For it in 56-57, you know. Uh, and some of the guys were sixty-five, and I was seventy. You can tell the age at that point, you know? 50:20 JO: [laugh] now that is neat. �50:22 JM: Yeah. Got that picture hanging. They were a little bit big, but I could bring them. I suppose they could be digitized. 50:28 JO: Oh, I bet. That would be wonderful. Yes. [pause]. 50:32 JE: I have to correct myself on the Pavilion vs when the Pavilion, I saw the Pavilion burn down. I was there. 50:42 JO: You were there that day and 50:43 JE: Yes, and but before that, the Pavilion, I wasn’t old enough to be, even around, the Pavilion, other than the theater. Mmkay. Other than roller skating or something. But I would walk along and see the yachts and everything. But it was the Rats Kellar that was in the Coral Gables. That. Yes. 51:14 JM: Yes. There was a bar, there was a bar of some sort at the, at the big Pavilion too. I don’t even, I don’t know what it was called 51:28 JE: Yeah but, yeah, but I wasn’t even old enough to be uh, be around. 51:28 JO: It was illegal for. You were, you were not of age. 51:30 JE: Correct, but I did, uh, love to dance, uh. And so I would go to the Rats Kellar when I was old enough, and that was my haunting grounds and, so. But I did, yeah, see the Pavilion burn down and all. Just about broke my heart. I can still you know. 51:52 JM: Yeah, well, Jean Underwood was of course on the other side, and if the wind hadn’t changed course it could have burned down everything over there. 51:58 JE: That’s right 51:58 JO: Yeah 51:59 JM: yeah. Was living right there 51:59 JE: That was a sad day. And then both Joy and I worked, we worked for, um, for a time at the museum. We had hostess 52:08 JM: Yeah we were, you know, were hostesses at Docen’s over there. 52:12 JE: Which was enjoyable 52:14 JM: Yeah. �52:15 JO: That’s good, well can we go back to one thing that we didn’t, I didn’t clarify myself. When you were here you graduated because you were in eighth grade. That was the top one. That was your only year here. And Joy talked about this picture being taken. Did you have a picture taken for graduation here? Or 52:34 JE: No 52:34 JO: No? 52:35 JE: Not that I recall 52:38 JO: How did you, how did you have your graduation? Did you 52:40 JE: We didn’t. It was 52:42 JO: It was just, you didn’t. At the end of the year, that was it? 52:44 JE: That was it. There was one more year of kids being here. 52:48 JO: being here. 52:49 JE: So I was next to last 52:52 JO: last, but 52:53 JE: But then I went on to Fennville. You know, high school 52:47 JO: But then when you left here as an eighth grader, did they have a picnic at the end of the year? Did, what did they do at the end of the year. I can always remember, they would always have a picnic, and we went out to Allegan County Park and 53:10 JE: No. We didn’t do 53:11 JO: Eelle Lake or something like that. You didn’t, it just, that was it? 53:13 JE: I don’t recall celebrating. When the school year ended everybody went their own way. Do you remember, Joy? 53:21 JM: No. We were just glad you graduated. 53:25 JO: [laugh] Oh come on now, Joy. 53:29 JE: Scratch that from the, yeah. Audio �53:32 JM: No. I don’t remember 53:36 JE: I went to Hope College. Now you don’t get into Hope College easily if you, you know. So I just want to point that out. 53:42 JO: [laugh] and then you went to Fennville. Now was there a big difference between here and when you went to Fennville? 53:45 JE: Oh yeah. 53:48 JO: Fennville was nothing like Chicago. 53:49 JE: I went to Fennville when it was on the hill 53:52 JO: The old school 53:53 JE: The old school. Ok 53:55 JO: Where the library is now 53:56 JE: Yes 53:58 JO: On Kindle street, or (?) it’s called. 53:59 JE: Mm hmm. And that’s where I graduated from. Uh. Yeah 54:06 JO: Because Mrs. Ward who used to teach kindergarten here. Didn’t she teach kindergarten? I believe, taught sixth grade in Fennville. Mary Ward 54:14 JE: Oh, I remember, yeah. 54:15 JO: But you see, you would not have had her because you were going to be a ninth grader then. 54:18 JE: Right 54:19 JO: And she, I believe, taught sixth grade. 54:22 JE: Exactly. Yeah. 54:23 JO: Mm. 54:24 JM: You know the, um, the, the academic program post, post high school differed from the teachers to, because, um, in the beginning, uh, I’m talking about the end of the fifties when �teachers needed who had gone through, um, the county normal program needed to pursue additional credits, and of course got a degree, um. We didn’t go to Western, or to another college necessarily, but a professor would come to us. So we took, uh, area teachers would get together once a week. 55:05 JO: Oh really? 55:06 JM: And the professor would come to us 55:08 JO: All year long, or just for in the summer? 55:10 JM: Yeah, for a semester and I think it continued to a second semester but for a particular period of time, like it would be going on campus. But they came, which made sense because we were all teaching. We were all working, and one person could better travel than all of us go the other way. 55:27 JO: That’s right. 55:28 JM: And they would come. And the other value to that was that a concept would be taught, and then we were, um, encouraged to go try it. And so we would do it in our perspective classrooms. We would reassemble the following week and talk about, did it, did that idea work? Why did it work for you and not for me? What were the variables? You know, and that kind of thing. And it was a wonderful, wonderful learning situation. I mean, it was a practic as you could get 56:01 JO: Oh. You couldn’t get any more than that. 56:02 JM: No. No. No. Then, of course, a number of us would go during the summer, go to summer school too, but 56:09 JE: one my— 56:09 JO: Because you had, go ahead, Jerry 56:11 JE: Um, I was saying that, when I went to Hope College, I went in to be a teacher, like Joy. My dad said “Be like Joy. Get a teaching. You’ll never be out a job.” I remember him always saying that to me. Jerry, you got be like. I think I had one semester, and I hated every minute of it. 56:32 JO: [laugh] 56:38 JE: Hated it. And I said I am not fit for this. Truly am not. �56:45 JO: Joy is Joy, and I’m Jerry. Right? 56:46 JE: Yes! And I wanted to go into social work. So badly. So when I continued at Hope College, and I took time off because I had two children, while going to college 57:01 JO: Wow. That’s 57:02 JE: And I just, I did. That’s what I want to do. And I finished out Hope College. And I started work at, uh, Ottawa County. And I stayed with them for well, 28 years. And the I was able to go out after 30 years in because they were able to pull my two years that I took education. Remember that, Joy? It was in the, and they were lucky they found it, because it was during, they had the fire. They had a fire in the basement of Douglas School. 57:50 JO: Oh 57:51 JE: Years ago. And my papers fortunately were saved. And so they had, they took the two years I was in the teaching arena. I never taught. But I took the—c--- t 58:10 JM: The class, the classes for it. Yeah. 58:11 JE: The classes for it. And they added my 28 years as a social worker and supervisor. I was social worker for two years and then I was a, um, I continued as a, um. Two years as a worker, then the rest I was a supervisor. And I was able to retire with 30 years in with state 58:39 JO: Hallelujah 58:40 JE: employment. So it just worked in my favor, even though I no longer wanted to be in that type of education, as far as teaching. So 58:53 JM: Yeah she’s right about our dad because um of course I was, um, six years older, and I got the same lecture, about um, you’ve got to think about something that’s going to always ensure employment. And, in those days, uh, we’re talking about teaching, clerical work or secretarial work, or what was the third thing? 59:19 JE: to—er 59:20 JM: Nursing! 59:21 JE: Nursing. Yeah. Nursing. 59:23 JM: There’s, well, blood makes me queasy. 59:27 JE: Still does �59:27 JO: [laugh] 59:28 JM: [laugh] 59:29 JE: She couldn’t even hold my child when I was hemorrhaging one year. 59:32 JM: yeah she was just giving birth while I , but anyway 59:36 JO: And if one of the students cut his finger, go! Get him out of here! Don’t show it to me! Right? 59:45 JM: So, anything, anyway, and then as far as secretarial work goes, you know, we took short hand at that time and typing and I was not very fast at that and stuff, so, I got into teaching. And, uh, I started off with the, um, you know, the one room school, and then I went overseas for a year and then 1:00:06 JO: Oh, I didn’t know that. Where’d you go? 1:00:08 JM: Yeah, uh, in France 1:00:10 JO: oh really? 1:00:11 JM: And taught the dependents of Air Force personnel. There were American Air force, and when I came back I was at Holland Public for years 1:00:16 JO: Oh really? 1:00:18 JM: and I 1:00:19 JO: Which building 1:00:20 JM: Um Lincoln. And then Washington. While I, while I was there at Washington, I, there was a teacher that was ready to retire. And she came back from a phone interview one time, and she said, “You know what? That’s not for me. They want a younger person that’s willing to take these courses, because they’re looking for a reading consultant in West Ottawa schools. And I bet that would be a good job for you.” She said “I’ll go get you an interview.” I didn’t even have a chance to say maybe I don’t want it. And it was joke for two years because I said, “I don’t know,” her name was Willie. I said “I don’t know whether to thank you yet,” but I was in West Ottawa as a reading consultant for 24 years, but anyway, what I was going to say was this, the state came around with that same 80 idea. That if you could add your age plus your experience, and if it equaled 80 at least 1:01:15 JO: Oh really? �1:01:17 years old. JM: You could get full retirement. So in, in uh 87, I had, um, 30 years in. I was 50 1:01:26 JO: Oh my word 1:01:27 JM: and that was it. And I had been attending the United Douglas Church of Christ since the end of the fifties. And they were, at that point without a, without a pastor. Um, full time pastor, but um, they needed someone to kind of work as administrator. So I, I thought, after I retired, then I had an opportunity to be an administrator at church. Administrator for ten years. And I also had the chance to work for the metal sculptor, Ed Gray. 1:01:59 JO: Oh. Ok. 1:01:59 JM: In Fennville. And then I had the chance to do, whole sale selling for a friend that made hand turned wooden items. And I rep’ed him along the 31 quarter to 32 1:02:16 JO: So repping him, you sold, you drove. All right 1:02:18 JM: Yeah, went to retail stores. Representing him wholesale so they could buy it. You know, so I did that. I never said “Ha Ha Ha,” when I left, but I thought it. I had my cake and ate it too. 1:02:31 JE: Yeah. And I loved social work. It just was my bag. And, um, I was fortunate I stayed with Ottawa County for 28 years. And I was able to retire at 55 and get full benefits. So we both choose the path we wanted to be at regardless of our father. 1:02:59 JO: [laugh] Yeah. Without your father, the two of you would not be here, right? Oh that’s great. Is there anything else that you two can add that you’d like to think of. Um, Andy advice, or anything like this that you’d like to give? You would never say, oh don’t come to this area. Saugatuck Douglas area’s awful. You’d never say that, right? 1:03:18 JE: No, never, never, never, never. 1:03:19 JM: No, and I heard, uh, people last night talk about the beauty of it and that whole bit. And I think, oh, that story is so true. People come here to visit, or people just come for a weekend. And I live on a street now where I’m the only 24/7 person living on the block 1:03:38 JE: You are 1:03:39 JM: I am, because the houses are owned by people who live elsewhere. In fact, one house at the end of my block is owned by a woman who lives in, lives in Texas. You know, um, Dale Pond Realty owns one house and it’s used for coming and going. But I’ll say this about the block, um, everyone keeps his, her property beautiful. And you know, if they’re not living there, they’ve hired a service �1:04:08 JO: service. Ok. Take care of it. 1:04:09 JM: And, you know the people next to me on one side, they live in Chicago. They come out as they’re able, but they have someone take care of it. A couple of gentlemen bought a house on the west side, uh they live in Palm Springs. 1:04:21 JO: Oh my word 1:04:23 JM: And, you know, they did as much work to make it look sharp. Uh. You know, when they were here this summer. And they have, uh, you know, they keep an eye on it. They have somebody watching the place. Telling them if there’s a problem. So, I mean, I think, I don’t know if Saugatuck city council is going to have to address all these transient people or you know, on, on my block there’s absolutely no problem. 1:04:50 JO: Great 1:04:51 live in Glen. JE: And I love Douglas. Douglas is my town. Always will be. Even though now I 1:04:58 JM: I didn’t realize you were that far south then, oh 1:04:59 JE: Yeah. I live in Glen, and I’m fortunate enough to live on Lake Michigan. And so that is a plus, but as far as, and the only reason I moved there is because I’ve been with John for fifteen years 1:05:14 JO: Fifteen years’ now 1:05:16 JE: And yeah, and, but I, Douglas will always have my heart. When I stopped working for social services, I wasn’t ready to give up working yet. So I jumped. I worked for all the people who owned a business here. 1:05:38 JO: Oh right, up and down the main street then 1:05:41 JE: And I worked for all of them. When, when, up, oh what was her name? On the corner, she, uh she had all the jewelry. The jewelry that I worked for on the corner. And she’s now, is in South Haven. Uh, but the two Ed’s, I worked for. And right on down and old, good old uh 1:06:07 JM: Walter 1:06:08 JE: Walter, the wonderful 1:06:09 JO: Walter the wonderful, wonderful, yeah. �1:06:10 JE: And nobody, nobody but nobody can be a Walter the wonderful. Ever. And I worked for him and his partner Barry at the time where they had the 1:06:20 JO: when they were still together. 1:06:22 JE: Uh huh, and um, I worked for them, and I worked for down the line. And then when I moved to Glen, uh, John had this inner urban old, old inner urban bus. And that’s how I moved my clothes and my shoes 1:06:43 JO: Oh my word 1:06:44 JE: And everybody I worked for came out to watch this truck come through Douglas with all my clothes because of course 1:06:53 JO: They could, they could hung 1:06:54 JE: They could be hung. And everybody would like crazy because it was so funny to see. There goes Jerry. She’s moving to Glen. And all my shoes, because I have a ton of shoes also 1:06:54 JO: [laugh] 1:07:07 JO: Oh, is your name Emelda? 1:07:08 in JE: Just about. But that’s how I ended up going to John’s house permanently was 1:07:15 JO: Oh my word. 1:07:15 JE: Inner Urban 1:07:15 JO: Inner Urban. 1:07:17 JM: I told Jerry I moved her so many times, and I told her “You know what? I am not moving your clothes anymore. My clothes are mostly denim, and they stick together and they don’t slide off. But you’ve got all these slippy slidey clothes 1:07:35 JO: This right here. 1:07:36 JM: I am, I’m not carrying those things. So John came with this bus and all she had was hanging up on the bus 1:07:42 JO: Hanging. Oh. That’s neat. That’s neat �1:07:44 JE: And that was, that was so much fun for everybody in town. You know? But I just, belong. Other than Glen, I mean, I love Douglas 1:07:57 JO: We got Douglas, we got Saugatuck 1:07:57 JE: It will always be my town 1:07:58 JO: You’ve been in Saugatuck since 1970, you said, right? 1:08:03 JM: My, yes. The house I’m in, yes. Yeah. And I had gone right from our parents’ home. I bought this house from the Davis’ and yes. Bought it in 69, and um, I had a wonderful, um, carpenter working for me who would do time and materials. And I loved to work with wood in my hands. And so he’d come, he’d get me started. And then I’d get as far on the project as I could. And then I’d call him. “Simon, I’m ready for another lesson.” 1:08:35 JO: Lesson. 1:08:36 JM: Um, or I need, I need some angles cut or whatever. And then he’d come back over and he’d move me on again. At that time, um Forrester. I don’t know if you remember Wallace Forrester. 1:08:47 JO: Forrester’s lived in Douglas, didn’t they? 1:08:49 JM: Yes, they do, and I don’t know if a family member---- 1:08:51 JO: Seventh Day Adventists 1:08:53 JM: Exactly. Exactly. We couldn’t go there on a Friday, Saturday 1:08:56 JO: Friday nights, mmhm 1:08:58 JM: Um, but on Sundays we could, and, uh, the scouts would go there and I would go there, and if I had just one dollar in my pocket, I came home with a whole car load of wood. He worked for, he worked for Romer and maybe Chris Craft. 1:09:08 JO: Oh, they were so generous, yes. Oh. OK. 1:09:13 JM: And so he had some beautiful, um, mahogany pieces. And you know they were just sold for ten cents. Maybe a quarter. And I built an eight frame play house, which I had moved into my house in Saugatuck. I had to predrill the mahogany 2X4’s because you couldn’t put a nail in it without pre drilling and then putting the nail in, but uh, I just love it. For me it was like going to a candy store, you know, and just hauling all that wood back, but, um, �1:09:47 JO: Forrester. F-O-R-R-E-S-T-E-R. Right? 1:09:48 JM: Yes. 1:09:50 JO: Did they have a daughter, Shirley? 1:09:51 JM: Um 1:09:52 JO: Oh no. What was it? 1:09:53 JM: They might have. I believe she married their son. 1:09:53 JO: I believe so. I can’t remember 1:09:56 JM: Remember, they, they, could have. This was the other Forrester but, they lived out, where they lived at that time, out by Schmeecken 1:10:05 JO: Yes. Right into that, yes. By where Schmeecken is 1:10:05 JM: They were right in there, and um, I think that, um, they did so. 1:10:10 JE: And when I, when I worked in Douglas I also lived in Douglas at Mary Ellen G(?)’s home. 1:10:18 JO: Oh. Where is this? 1:10:20 JE: Um, oh, what is that? 1:10:22 JM: Is it Washington? 1:10:23 JE: Washington. Yes 1:10:24 JM: Ok. 1:10:25 JE: And, uh, she rented to me for three, four years, before she had to move in because her husband died and she wanted the home, but it was right near, but in Max. Cross, Across the road. I was always the lady under the bridge so to speak because the bridge was right were her home was. And I was fortunate enough to have that place. It was, you know, I just loved it there. 1:10:53 JO: Well this has been great. I am really pleased. Thank you both. Joy. 1:10:59 JM: You’re very welcome �1:11:00 JO: And Jerry. You have shared a lot with us, and I think this great. So you should be very pleased, right? Oh. I’d better do this correctly. This concludes the interview 1:11:07 JM: [laugh] � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Summers in Saugatuck-Douglas Collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Kutsche Office of Local History Description An account of the resource Collection contains images and documents digitized and collected through the project "Stories of Summer," supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant. The collection aims to document the twin lakeshore communities of Saugatuck and Douglas, Michigan, as they transformed through the state's bustling tourism industry and acceptance of minorities. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1910s-2010s Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Various Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a> Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Saugatuck (Mich.) Douglas (Mich.) Michigan, Lake Allegan County (Mich.) Beaches Sand dunes Outdoor recreation Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Saugatuck-Douglas History Center Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Text Language A language of the resource English Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-07_SD-MuehlenbeckJ-ElsingaJ-20181004 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Muehlenbeck, Joy Muehlenbeck-Elsinga, Jerry Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-10-04 Title A name given to the resource Joy Muehlenbeck and Jerry Muehlenbeck-Elsinga (Audio interview and transcript), 2018 Description An account of the resource Sisters Joy Muehlenbeck and Jerry Elsinga describe adjusting to Saugatuck as young women after living in Chicago. Considerable discussion about the Pavillion and education in Saugatuck in the 60's and 70's. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Osman, Jane (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Saugatuck (Mich.) Douglas (Mich.) Allegan County (Mich.) Outdoor recreation Oral history Audio recordings Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Documenting the Histories of Summers in Saugatuck-Douglas, Kutsche Office of Local History Relation A related resource Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/25d06752b80626ba7cc512aa40ecc362.mp4 3bfc8089b8b5386589999e8a567d6dcd https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/89e56ef017fc00bc63467e863c31fbed.pdf a24d5b6af96676a9b5dc3c8e01894711 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Bob Mueller (00:41:41) (00:15) Background Information • • • • • • • Bob was born in Chicago, Illinois on March 8, 1921 His father worked as a chemist and was also a very good pianist Bob went to high school in Chicago and graduated in 1939 He had been captain of the swimming team and received a scholarship to a college in Minnesota He went to college in Minnesota for about a year, but it was very cold and the school [St. Olaf] was too religious Bob got an offer for another swimming scholarship to a college in California He moved to California and also went through a flight school program (6:45) California • The college in California was much more enjoyable and the weather was very nice • He lived in the resort town of Palm Springs and there were many nice rich people around • Bob met Ann Baxter once and she later won an Academy Award • Bob had been hanging out on the beach when Pearl Harbor was attacked; he wanted to enlist right away • He just needed to pull a few strings at his college because he needed a two year degree to become a Navy Cadet (11:25) Navy • Bob began pre-flight training in Iowa City, Iowa, which was similar to boot camp • There were many classes and awful physical training activities • There were other men from all over the country and many of them had more military experience • Bob was only allowed in because of his flight classes he had took in California and his degree (14:40) Norman, Oklahoma • Bob had primary flight training in Oklahoma, working on Steerman airplanes �• They had one day off a week and usually went into Oklahoma City • They flew every day for three months and had to take different tests, all of which Bob passed (16:30) Pensacola, FL • They were in the final stages of training working with SNJs and AT-6s • Advanced training consisted of radio work and flying sea planes • Bob had a very bad accident in a sea plane and ended up upside down stuck in the plane underwater • He heard more pilots died in training than did in their actual missions (22:45) New Orleans • Bob was sent to New Orleans and had just received his wings • He began going through instructor classes learning how to teach others how to fly • They were able to fly on their time off and he had an excellent time (23:15) Flight Instruction • Bob was sent to Saint Louis for flight instruction • He went from being a cadet to an officer and had his own private room • The living quarters were like a nice hotel and they could order their meals off a menu • Bob was a junior flight instructor for three months and then became a senior flight instructor • He then became a senior check pilot and was the person that decided if the trainees passed their tests (27:35) Corpus Christi, Texas • In Texas Bob was assigned to a squad and went through weapons training • They were flying Grumman Wildcats and training in dog fights • They also had to train to land on air craft carriers • Bob had to land 14 times and he felt that the carriers seemed so small compared to the ocean �• He had been training to fight in Japan, but the war ended before he was sent • Bob was then put on inactive duty, but still had to fly for four hours a month • He flew to South Carolina because he heard the government was selling a bunch of planes at very low prices • Bob bought a plane and flew back home to Michigan (31:52) After the Service • He leased some area at an airport in a small town in Michigan with the money he received for his bonus • Bob went to Grand Rapids to get his flight instructor license so that he could teach classes at the airport • They told him that he could actually qualify to be a flight examiner • He received his examiner’s license and people were coming in to the airport from hundreds of miles away to get their license • Bob later bought a crop duster in Milwaukee for $700.00 • His business grew steadily and he eventually had four other pilots working under him • Bob worked in the same business for about thirty years and then retired � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context MuellerR Title A name given to the resource Mueller, Robert (Interview outline and video), 2008 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Mueller, Robert Description An account of the resource Bob Mueller was born in Chicago in 1921, and at the time of Pearl Harbor was attending college in California and taking aviation classes. He enlisted as a Navy cadet and went through pre-flight and advanced flight training before becoming a flight instructor in New Orleans. He then trained to fly fighters off of aircraft carriers and was expecting to participate in the invasion of Japan when the war ended.. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans United States. Marine Corps World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Video recordings Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2008-09-11 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d77986b9e57b3b582905f7a2d90e64a5.mp4 229ca41f4cae28bb26e4a64cca708e34 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d53a5a5f579b60a0d4f02a6f5ebe8c19.pdf 347e1004f23a12ca504e0cc54005f61c PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Name of Interviewer: Win Mueller Name of War: World War II Length of Interview: (00:34:11) (00:15) Training      Win was drafted in 1942 and inducted at Fort Custer in Battle Creek, Michigan He went through training at Fort Custer to be in the Military Police and was there for about 6 months He later worked guarding POWs; they had picked up some men from Africa and brought them to Camp Swift in Texas Win worked on guard duty in Texas for another 6 months The area was surrounded by double fences, guard towers, and dogs, but no one ever tried to escape (5:25) Europe  Win worked as a replacement troop for a while and eventually formed the 106th Division with the men he was working with  They were sent to England for more training  Win later traveled to La Havre, France and boarded trucks to be brought to the front line where they worked with the 101st Division  They eventually replaced the 101st Division right before the Battle of the Bulge  Win’s division was trapped along with British soldiers from the North and South for about a month  There was not much to eat or even time to eat; their priority was to constantly fight  The weather was freezing cold and he could not stop shaking the whole time he was there or feel his hands  Much of Win’s Division was lost during the Battle of the Bulge and he later joined another outfit (19:40) Back to US  Win boarded a very crowded Liberty Ship that was to take the men to New York  They were all pretty worried about being shipped to the war in the Pacific  They arrived in New York and were told they would eventually have to meet in California to be shipped out to the Pacific  They heard the news that Japan had surrendered at the last minute  Win took a train to Chicago where he was discharged a few months later  He was asked to re enlist, but was not at all interested in doing so � Win took some time off for vacation that summer and then decided to finish high school (26:30) Men in the Service  Win had made some very good friends while in the service  He had a friend from Oklahoma that moved back to France to start a taxi company  Win had been a private first class and had many officers that were just out of college, whom they called “90 day wonders”  Most of the men did not like their young officers, but later found that they were all pretty smart and knew what they were doing  Win had joined the American Legion, but said he was treated like a “pee-on” by veterans from WWI � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context MuellerW Title A name given to the resource Mueller, Winfried S. (Interview outline and video), 2003 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Mueller, Winfried S. Description An account of the resource Win Mueller was drafted into the Army in 1942 and went through basic training at Fort Custer in Battle Creek, Michigan. He also trained there to be in the Military Police and was at Fort Custer for about 6 months all together. After training Win worked at Fort Swift in Texas, where he guarded POWs for another six months. Win later helped form the 106th Division and was sent to Europe where they eventually replaced the 101st Division in the Netherlands right before the Battle of the Bulge. Win fought in the Battle for about a month in freezing cold weather with not much food to eat. After making it through the battle and traveling to other parts of Europe, win had enough points to go home right around the time of the Japanese surrender. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Collins Sr., Charles E. (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2003-08-08 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ba685df32e6f52a68d26a15745accc4e.mp4 80a3c3cfe5211bf2f29825d49d910295 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/eccf74ce6a4f5704c7e8c5086f236ce9.pdf b1648c73cdbe7d97447bcc8701ff0737 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Jerry Muir World War II (1:04:02) Background Information (00:56)            Born April 14 1924 in Grand Rapids Michigan. (1:04) He grew Up in Grand Rapids and attended East Grand Rapids High School. (1:15) He had 1 brother and 1 sister. (1:33) His father made a living repairing cars. (1:40) The family did not have steady income during the Depression. (2:00) His Father was a World War I veteran. (2:32) Jerry heard of Pearl Harbor while working as an usher. Jerry worked as an usher from 19391943. (3:29) After hearing of Pearl Harbor, Jerry expected to be drafted. (5:44) He did assist his dad with car repairs occasionally. (6:10) He was drafted in June of 1943. (6:27) He was then sent to Fort Custer, Michigan. Here he was interviewed to see what sort of job he may be qualified for. (6:40) th Basic Training (7:20)            He began his training at Fort Sill, Oklahoma. (7:25) Jerry was taken to Fort Sill via train. The trip took approx. 3 days. (7:38) When arriving at Fort Sill, Jerry was placed in the Signal Corps. Here he was taught Morse Code. (9:10) There was an opportunity that arose for Jerry to join the Air Force (Army Air Corps) due to the need for additional men. (10:48) After being approved for the Air Corps, Jerry was sent to Oklahoma Baptist University where he was to learn more advanced mathematics and physics. After 3 months of the 6 month program Jerry was pulled. (12:16) Due to the production of the P51 Mustang and its extended range, the need for additional men in the Air Corps (for bomber crews to replace combat losses) was no longer present. (14:25) Jerry was sent back to ground forces and placed in the Quartermaster department at Fort Warren, Wyoming in the spring/summer of 1944. (14:30) The elevated altitude in Wyoming made it difficult for Jerry to go on longer runs. (15:17) Jerry had a motorcycle shipped to him by truck while he was at Fort Warren. (16:15) Every Sunday, which the soldiers had off, Jerry took his motorcycle on rides into town. (17:56) Jerry was given a 2 week furlough before being sent to San Francisco, California. (18:40) Voyage to the Pacific (19:55) �       Jerry traveled on a converted cargo ship. (20:19) The voyage from San Francisco to New Guinea took approx. 1 month. (21:10) The ship was not in a convoy. (21:25) The men were then sent to the 4 replacement center on Luzon in the Philippines where he stayed for 1 month. (22:08) Some of the men he was sent with were sent to a trucking company outside Manila. Board, Jerry decided to go along as well. He was not stopped. (22:52) The men were sent to Manila by ship and than by train. (23:30) Once Jerry arrived at the shipping company, he was sent back because he was not assigned there. (24:00) th Service on the J.M Davis (24:20)          He was than assigned to the J.M. Davis. The ship, however, was unable to be found. After searching for 1 week, Jerry was sent to the wrong location. (24:38) Jerry was assigned to do electrical work as well as radio work once aboard the ship. (25:15) While on the J.M Davis, the men decided to restructure the communication devices on the ship so that it could more easily communicate with other vessels. (26:00) In June of 1945, the J.M. Davis was to sail to the Philippines. Before the ship was sent to a dry dock at Manus Island where the ship was painted. The J.M. Davis was used as a sort of repair depot for the Army’s supply and transport ships. (29:02) Aboard the J.M. Davis the men had very good food. In fact, the men grew “sick of steak.” (31:55) While in the Philippines, Jerry met his cousin who was in the USO. She was working in a play that was showing in Manila. (33:11) The ship was anchored in the bay in Manila. (34:44) When the war ended in August of 1945, the J.M. Davis was moving toward Tokyo bay. The ship eventually docked at a pier in Yokohama ,Japan. (35:39) Service after Surrender (36:56)        After the war ended the men still repaired other ships. However, the time after the war felt like “a vacation.” (36:58) When going ashore on Yokohama there was very little there, most of the city was bombed out. (37:14) Jerry did visit Tokyo. (37:40) The Japanese civilians were very nice to the American Soldiers. (38:05) One of Jerry’s friends from the service began seeing a Japanese girl while in Yokohama. The girl’s father owned a hardware store. While out with the girl, a former Japanese Soldier spotted them and began shouting at her and the GI. (39:40) Cigarettes were very valuable for trading with the Japanese civilians. (41:09) While waiting to go home, the men were showed a garage full of military rifles for the men to take home as souvenirs. Enlisted men were allowed a rifle, and officers were aloud a rifle and a pistol. Jerry took neither. (42:40) �    He was sent back to the Seattle, Washington on a Liberty Ship. It stormed for the entire voyage. (44:30) Next Jerry was sent to Fort MacArthur Los Angeles. Jerry’s discharge was postponed 1 month due to dental work he required. (46:00) When his oral surgery was complete Jerry was discharged from Fort MacArthur in fall of 1945. He was picked up and taken home by his parents. (48:27) Life after Service (49:05)     For 1 year after service Jerry did very little. (49:12) Jerry worked for a radio station for a short period. (49:40) He then worked in Kelvinator and then was a spot welder. (50:00) Jerry than worked at Steelcase for 30 years until he retired. (50:48) Thoughts on Service (51:16)          He did similar work in the military as he did while he was at home. (51:29) He thought his ship was run well and that his officers were fair. The ship was run by the Coast Guard but the Army did all the repairs. (51:45) While stationed in Japan, Jerry used a home-made flotation device which he used to swim by a Japanese shipwreck. (53:40) Jerry saw very little of the native population while in New Guinea. There was one occasion when the natives tried to sell the soldiers things in exchange for cigarettes. (55:55) While waiting for the J.M. Davis, Jerry did encounter a native man who looked as though he was ready to battle Jerry. (59:11) Natives did work in the mess halls at times or on bases. (1:00:00) Jerry saw some of the Filipino population as well. (1:00:30) While in the Philippines, one of his fellow soldiers who made a catcall at a girl was yelled at by a the girl’s mother(1:01:34) Manila was mostly GIs and USO members. Jerry did not see many natives while stationed there. (1:02:30) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context MuirJ1290V Title A name given to the resource Muir, Jerry (Interview outline and video), 2011 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Muir, Jerry Description An account of the resource Jerry Muir, born April 14th 1924 in Grand Rapids ,Michigan, was drafted into the U.S. Army in 1943. Sent to Fort Sill, Oklahoma for basic training, he was assigned to the Signal Corps and began learning Morse Code. He took an opportunity to transfer to the Army Air Corps, and spend several months taking college courses in preparation for flight training, but the program shut down after three months, and he was now sent to Fort Warren, Wyoming, for Quartermaster Corps training. After this, he want by ship to New Guinea, and then to a replacement depot in the Philippines, where he waited over a month for an assignment. He was eventually assigned to the J.M. Davis, a ship that provided repair services for Army transport ships. He served aboard the Davis for the last few months of the war, and went to Yokohama, Japan, after the surrender. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-11-01 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/0838165de6189fb1dbfca823597d1dfd.mp4 3679cd77f789d1d41ad1ac4efb597f51 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f71dbeee5fe44bdcfb8087fa66d8e0c2.pdf 5733168a64758138c684989fde004434 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans' History Project Dr. Richard Muir Vietnam War 51 minutes 10 seconds (00:00:10) Early Life -Born in Grand Rapids, Michigan on November 2, 1939 -Grew up in Grand Rapids -Went to Ottawa Hills High School -Father was a partner in the Muir Pharmacy chain -Had two older sisters and one younger brother -Went to Northwestern University, Illinois after high school -Graduated from high school in 1957 -Married his high school sweetheart in the fall of 1957 -After a year at Northwestern University he and his wife transferred to Albion College, Michigan -Finished his pre-med coursework there -Had a child in 1958 and another in 1960 -Got financial support from his father and worked for A&P Grocers -Also was a referee for sporting events -Wife graduated from Wayne State University in 1962 -He went to medical school at Wayne State University -Wasn't largely aware of Cold War events happening in the early 1960s -Focused on completing medical school and raising a family -Had to complete four years of medical school, then one year of internship -Did his internship from 1965-1966 -Hoping to go into orthopedics (00:02:58) Getting Drafted -Received a draft letter in spring 1966 -Said that he was going to be inducted into the Army as a lieutenant -Army needed doctors for the war that was escalating in Vietnam (00:03:42) Training Pt. 1 -Reported to Fort Sam Houston, Texas in August 1966 -Taught how to march -Taught some basic non-surgical wound treatments -Took an additional course on tropical medicine because he was going to be sent to Vietnam -He had volunteered for service in Vietnam -Did not want to be stuck in the U.S. for two years doing boring work -Believed, at the time, that the spread of communism needed to be stopped -Left Fort Sam Houston in late October 1966 (00:05:14) Deployment Pt. 1 -Reported to Travis Air Force Base, California on November 2, 1966 for his deployment -From there he was flown to South Vietnam �(00:05:22) Training Pt. 2 -At Fort Sam Houston for two and a half months -Six weeks of basic training -Four weeks of the tropical medicine course -He trained with a group of doctors, dentists, and veterinarians -Army basically gave up on trying to give them standard basic training -The closest thing they got was going on the infiltration course -Crawling under barbed wire while a machine gun was fired over him -The tropical medicine course was focused on learning abbout tropical diseases -Specifically malaria, bubonic plague, etc. -Had that course because he was was going to be assigned to a hospital -Didn't know where, but knew it would be a provincial civilian hospital -Also taught how to treat tropical infections and parasites (00:07:51) Deployment Pt. 2 -He reported to Travis Air Force Base and his plane had already left -Had to stay a night at Travis to wait for the next flight to South Vietnam -Next day caught a flight that would take him to Saigon -Flew there on a chartered civilian plane -Deployed to South Vietnam as a captain -Promoted to the rank of captain when he reported to Fort Sam Houston -Stopped at Okinawa and then flew to Tan Son Nhut Air Base, South Vietnam (00:09:05) Arrival in South Vietnam -Landed in the morning -It was already hot and humid -Could not find anyone on the base that could tell him where to go -He was taken to a building where assignments were being given to incoming soldiers -Eventually got taken to the Military Assistance Command, Vietnam compound in Saigon -No one knew where he was supposed to go -After a week there he finally received his orders (00:10:54) Stationed in Pleiku -Taken north on a DC-3 to Pleiku -It was in the Central Highlands in II Corps near the Laotian border -Assigned to the MACV compound in Pleiku -Taking over the Military Provincial Health Assistance Program -Purpose of that program was to go to a provincial hospital to help the Vietnamese -Treating civilians and training medical personnel -Met with doctors and noncommissioned officers -Went to the hospital in Pleiku the next day -It was an old French hospital -Got his orientation on the job -The French hospital was composed of various one story buildings -A surgical building and two medical buildings -They were basic facilities that looked more like barracks -He was made the commanding officer �-Had a disagreement with another doctor -Someone had to take over surgery while another took over medicine -He eventually got to do surgery -Felt that the other doctor was incompetent when it came to surgery -Sought help from the career noncommissioned officers that had more experience (00:16:25) Treating and Working with the Vietnamese Pt. 1 -The medical facilities were primitive -Families would stay with patients -Cooked meals in the hospital next to the patient -Treated Vietnamese civilians, but no military personnel -Took care of the Vietnamese and the Montagnards -The Vietnamese refused to be with the Montagnards -Had a handful of Vietnamese interpreters to help him and the other doctors -They were wonderful people -Got in touch with one interpreter decades after the war -Interpreters would communicate with the Montagnards -Ability to communicate was more limited though -Some of the Vietnamese in the hills only spoke French -He spoke a little French, so he could communicate with them -Saw a lot of people come in with wounds from bullets and/or landmines -Burns from house fires -Injuries related to vehicle accidents -Snake bites were also common and festering by the time the patients got to the hospital -Wounds from punji sticks -Punji sticks: Booby traps used by the Viet Cong, sticks in pits smeared in feces -Had to perform a lot of amputations -Hospital got its supplies from the United States government -Had an anesthetic machine that no one knew how to use -Had to rely on novocaine injections for local anesthetic -Had to bring patients with abdominal wounds to the base at Pleiku -Treated at the Mobile Army Surgical Hospital (00:21:04) Living Conditions and Downtime -Lived with four other men -Spent a few weeks by himself because the other men were in the field or elsewhere -At first he was depressed because he didn't receive any mail for a couple weeks -The mail eventually reached him which was a morale boost -Played basketball with his roommates once they returned -Passed the time by reading -Would return to the base at night to eat dinner -Very rarely left the base after coming back from the hospital -Only went to the hospital at night if he was concerned about a patient -Had Vietnamese civilians that were approved to work on the base -Cleaned, made beds, and cooked (00:23:35) Evidence of the War �-There were no frontlines, so the war was technically everywhere -The 4th Infantry Division was operating out of Pleiku at the time -When he went to the hospital he would see their vehicles on the road (00:24:03) Treating and Working with the Vietnamese Pt. 2 -There was an airbase that they would fly out of into the mountains -There were a couple bubonic plague outbreaks in the mountains -Used streptomycin to treat the infection -Some people had pneumonic plague -Plague had reached the lungs and was not treatable -Had a mortality rate of 100% -It was interesting to go into the field by helicopter -Flew at tree top level to avoid being shot at by the Viet Cong -Drove out to a village once and heard gunshots -Thought it was combat -Turned out to just be the signal for the village people to gather for treatment -The Montagnard villages were composed of buildings built on stilts -Livestock lived under the houses -Very primitive, but resourceful people -The Montagnards were much less demanding than the Vietnamese -More docile and friendly -Thought that they were better looking people -Didn't see any with modern weapons -Only armed with crossbows -Always suspected that some patients were part of the Viet Cong -Treated them anyway -Wasn't aware of any major Viet Cong activity in Pleiku though -More afraid of being kidnapped than being shot -Knew that doctors would get kidnapped and taken to treat VC soldiers -The South Vietnamese medical personnel were called technicians -Had very little, if any, medical training -He taught them how to put on casts and apply dressings -They would assist with surgeries -Got to know some of them pretty well (00:28:46) Medical and Humanitarian Work Pt. 1 -His job didn't change much over the course of the year that he spent in South Vietnam -Dealt with chronic intestinal parasites, chronic malaria, and tuberculosis -He was able to get running water for the hospital -Built some basic storage for medical supplies -Built a cooking shed for the family members of patients to use for cooking -This was to prevent any accidents from happening inside the hospital (00:29:55) The Vietnamese -The Vietnamese families were no different than American families -Different customs, still people though -Loved their children �-Very close knit -Remembers one patient that had tetanus that was being watched over by his family -After a week he was able to eat again -Wound up choking on a piece of food, aspirated, and died (00:30:48) Travelling -He spent most of his time in Pleiku either on the base or at the hospital -Visited a friend in Nha Trang -Visited a former classmate from medical school who was in Da Nang -Went down to Saigon once to fill out paperwork due to a stolen jeep -Prostitution was very prevalent in Saigon -Prostitutes would knock on doors looking for potential customers -Went on R&R twice -Once to Hawaii to see his wife -Another time to Bangkok, Thailand -Had initially planned to meet his father in Hong Kong -He had served in the Navy in World War I and loved Asia -At the last minute his father decided not to go -Felt that he was too old to travel that much -The medical facilities were much better in Nha Trang and Da Nang -This was due to their being American military medical facilities -While in Nha Trang he contracted Dengue fever -Stayed in an American hospital for four of five days until he was healthy again (00:33:01) Disease -Took an anti-malaria pill -Made him sick though, so he stopped taking it -Never contracted malaria while he was in Vietnam (00:33:15) Opinion of the War -Initially, he was very supportive of the war -After three months of being in Vietnam his opinion changed -Saw how much the civilians were suffering due to the war -Saw that democracy wouldn't work in Vietnam -Too rural and too uneducated for a Western democracy to work -Felt that a lot of the South Vietnamese officials were corrupt -Didn't care about the majority of the Vietnamese civilians, or the Montagnards (00:34:53) Discipline Issues Pt. 1 -Believes that the jeep that was stolen was probably stolen by an American serviceman -Theft wasn't a major issue though -Didn't have much morphine on hand, so didn't worry about it being stolen -Did have codeine and other oral narcotics -Once the storage was built he kept the codeine and narcotics locked in there (00:36:28) American Medical Personnel -The medical service officer was a good man from Minnesota -A new medical officer that later arrived was a good man and they became friends -Stayed friends until his death after the war �-He and his wife are still in touch with that officer's widow -The one incompetent officer was rotated out and replaced with a better officer -Got along with the new man much better -More qualified and more personable -The noncommissioned officers were very helpful -The younger enlisted men worked as medical staff -Most, if not all, of the medics were in the field with the infantry (00:38:24) Discipline Issues Pt. 2 -Overall, the American medical staff were good to work with -A couple of the men were lazy, but otherwise good men -One man was a pedophile -He was caught and dealt with by the military legal system -One man was grossly overweight and had to be rotated out -A lot of the men had problems with alcohol -Never caused any work issues, but it was apparent that they had a problem with alcohol (00:39:28) Communication with Home -Communicated with home by way of letters and audio tape -It was a great morale boost to hear the voices of his wife and children -Communicated with his parents, sisters, aunts, and his brother (00:40:09) Delivering a Baby -One time he and another doctor (OB/GYN) flew up to a village to help deliver a baby -The placenta was blocking the baby from being delivered -Transported the woman by helicopter to a Special Forces hospital -Delivered the baby there via a C section (00:41:06) Medical and Humanitarian Work Pt. 2 -Went to Quinn Yan to visit a Quaker prosthetic center -The center was funded by the Quakers -Taught the Vietnamese how to make prosthetics -Helped teach them about rehabilitation -Helped find a plastic surgeon for a woman with severe burns -She wound up getting the plastic surgery which made her happy -Didn't leave Pleiku for medical work very often -Generally just worked in the hospital in Pleiku -Hopes that he gave the Vietnamese some medical knowledge and good will -Isn't sure about how much it helped though (00:43:05) Revisiting Vietnam -Visited Vietnam in 2001 with his wife -Could not visit Pleiku because it was off limits for foreigners -Saw Hanoi, Hue, Da Nang, Cam Ranh Bay, and Saigon (now Ho Chi Minh City) -It was a week long trip -It was a very different country -Most of the young people had no concept of the war -Free enterprise and small shops were abundant and thriving -There was no bitterness among the Vietnamese, even in Hanoi -Saw that communism was slowly being replaced with capitalism anyway �(00:44:32) Coming Home -Wasn't sure when he was supposed to leave South Vietnam -Knew that it would be sometime in November 1967 -Eventually received his orders to return to the United States -Went down to Cam Ranh Bay and then went to Saigon to board a plane -Everyone on the plane clapped when they left the ground -Landed at Travis Air Force Base -It was cold when they landed -Flew from Travis Air Force Base to Detroit -Didn't see any protestors in the United States -Even travelling in uniform he didn't face any animosity (00:45:58) End of Service -Sent to Fort MacArthur in San Pedro, California -Worked at their outpatient clinic for soldiers -Stationed there for nine months until he was discharged (00:46:16) Life after the War -Returned to Detroit -Lived there until 1979 -Wanted to move to California once their children were in college -Moved to California in 1979 and has lived there ever since -Went into orthopedics -Practiced in Detroit from 1973-1979 -Practiced in North San Diego County from 1979-July 2014 -The Army had tried to convince him to reenlist -Offered a promotion to the rank of major -Did not consider it at all -Wife wishes that he had because it would have made their lives easier (00:47:42) Reflections on Service Pt. 1 -Doesn't regret being in the Army -He is actually glad that he got drafted -Feels that it was a wonderful experience -Has tremendous respect for the military (00:47:56) Major Events of the 1960s -Didn't pay much attention to the Vietnam War after he returned -Does remember when Martin Luther King Jr. was assassinated -Does remember when Bobby Kennedy was assassinated -Just focused on his family -Paid some attention to the war -Didn't think that the U.S. was accomplishing what they wanted to (00:49:44) Reflections on Service Pt. 2 -Grew a lot emotionally -Learning how to take care of other people -Learning how to be more self reliant -Took pride in knowing that he went to Vietnam and did what he could to help the people -Has a greater respect for the military -It was a positive experience �-Growing experience for his wife as well -Made their relationship stronger � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_MuirR1753V Title A name given to the resource Muir, Richard V (Interview outline and video), 2015 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015-05-04 Description An account of the resource Dr. Richard Muir was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan on November 2, 1939. After graduating from high school in 1957 he attended Northwestern University, Albion College, and Wayne State University studying medicine. After completing his internship in 1966 he was drafted in spring 1966 and reported for active duty in August 1966. He received training at Fort Sam Houston, Texas and volunteered to be deployed to Vietnam. He reported to Travis Air Force Base, California on November 2, 1966 to be deployed to Vietnam. He was stationed in Pleiku where he worked at a provincial civilian hospital treating civilians and training Vietnamese medical personnel. He also would go into the hills and villages of Vietnam to treat the Montagnards as well as rural Vietnamese. He was sent back to the United States in November 1967. He was stationed at Fort MacArthur, California for nine months and was discharged from there. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Muir, Richard V. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Moving Image Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b8febe07b632f960fe058bb89451c318.mp4 8fde5953768e0fc2105c4f37d6e60b50 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7987f3472d9c753bd567fdf15998b04b.pdf 7c311971099a81e1b15bd2754dbbbb7b PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Title Mulbrecht, Fred (Interview outline and video), 2012 Subject World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American; United States. Army Air Corps; United States. National Guard Description Fred Mulbrecht served in the U.S. Army Air Corps as an aircraft mechanic from 1942-1944 in Italy during World War II. Prior to joining the service, Fred was in the National Guard. After being drafted in 1942, he aspired to be a pilot but instead was made a mechanic. Fred’s training was undergone at Kistler Field Virginia as well as several private schools in New Orleans and Detroit. In late 1943 Fred was sent to a unit of the 15th Air Force in Foggia, Italy, where he spent all his service until he was discharged in 1944. Creator Contributor (Interviewer/Affiliation) Mulbrecht, Fred Date 2012-09-20 FMulbrecht1441V Digital Identification Smither, James (Interviewer); Barnum, Rich (Interviewer) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context MulbrechtF1441V Title A name given to the resource Mulbrecht, Fred (Interview outline and video), 2012 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Mulbrecht, Fred Description An account of the resource Fred Mulbrecht served in the U.S. Army Air Corps as an aircraft mechanic from 1942-1944 in Italy during World War II. Prior to joining the service, Fred was in the National Guard. After being drafted in 1942, he aspired to be a pilot but instead was made a mechanic. Fred's training was undergone at Kistler Field Virginia as well as several private schools in New Orleans and Detroit. In late 1943 Fred was sent to a unit of the 15th Air Force in Foggia, Italy, where he spent all his service until he was discharged in 1944. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Barnum, Rich (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Air Corps United States. National Guard Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-09-20 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4161ad2682cdcb119efe5dc19a7d8baa.mp4 5c51ed85ba75a6eec2e3cf25508435bb https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/53aa7c5b0a59974e35048c272837cb98.pdf d1cc415ef4c1876da7829a2f7c8771ac PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans’ History Project Chuck Mulder World War II 1 hour 7 minutes 4 seconds (00:00:40) Early Life -Born in September 1925 in Grand Haven, Michigan -Grew up there -Went to high school in Grand Haven -Dropped out in junior year after father died -Got a job in a factory after dropping out of high school -Shortly thereafter got his draft notice -Attended high school in the late 1930s -He worked at a muffler manufacturing plant -Worked there as a spot welder -Worked there shortly after the war broke out in the United States in 1941 (00:02:13) Start of the War, Attempting to Enlist, and Getting Drafted -Remembers his mother crying when the war began on December 7, 1941 -Crying because she knew that he and his older brother would get involved -Got into an argument with his mother and decided to go enlist in the Navy Reserve -Took a bus from Grand Haven to Grand Rapids, Michigan -Went to the recruiting station near Reed’s Lake and tried to enlist -Turned away due to poor eyesight -Shortly after his eighteenth birthday in September 1943 he received his draft notice -Reported to Great Lakes Naval Station, Illinois on December 21, 1943 to be inducted -Knew that he was a young man and would eventually get drafted -Accepted it because he was asked to do it, and because his friends were involved -Brother was in the Army Air Force during the war as a gunner -Got shot down during a bombing raid -Spent nine months in a prisoner of war camp, but ultimately survived (00:06:19) Basic Training and Signal Corps Training -Sent to Camp Crowder, Missouri for basic training -Immediately placed into Signal Corps training -Had calisthenics every morning -Training lasted through the spring of 1944 -He was placed into Morse code training as part of the Signal Corps -Could translate and type twelve words per minute -He was left handed which meant he had to adjust to the code keys being on the right -Wound up never using any of his Morse code training (00:08:10) Deployment and Assignment to the 94th Infantry Division -He was sent to a replacement depot at Camp Beale, California -He was given an eighteen day “delay en route” -Meant that he could visit his family before reporting for deployment -He left Grand Haven on D-Day (June 6, 1944) �-Took the bus to Chicago then took a train to Camp Beale -Remembers having to comb cinders out of his hair after the train ride -He was only at Camp Beale for a short time before receiving his orders -Ordered to go to Camp McCain, Mississippi -The 94th Infantry Division needed additional men -Doesn’t remember hearing much about D-Day -By the time he got to Camp McCain the 94th was ready to go up to Camp Shanks, New York -Took a couple days to go up to Camp Shanks -Stayed in Camp Shanks for two (or three) days -Allowed to visit New York City -Remembers going into a chili diner and meeting Bud Abbott -Boarded the Queen Elizabeth with tens of thousands of other servicemen -Felt that ships like that helped the Allies win the war (00:13:35) Unit Designation in the 94th Infantry Division -He was assigned to an anti-tank platoon in a Headquarters Company -Operating a 57mm anti-tank gun -In reality it would have been ineffective against German tanks -Duty was to protect the battalion’s headquarters from any tank attacks -Only fired their gun once and all it did was act as a beacon for German artillery -He was in the Headquarters Company of 1st Battalion of the 302nd Infantry Regiment (00:15:45) Arrival in England -After leaving New York they arrived in Scotland -There was no dock big enough for the Queen Elizabeth -Had to use smaller ships to take men and supplies ashore -Took a few days to unload the Queen Elizabeth -They were taken by train to the small town of Grittleton, England -Got there in late August 1944 -It was rainy and they had to deal with slogging around in the mud -Did some training with the anti-tank gun -Paris had just been taken and the Germans were starting to retreat -Places their arrival in England sometime around August 25, 1944 -Stayed in England for about a month (00:18:13) Arrival in France -Went down to Southampton and boarded a Liberty Ship there -Sailed across the English Channel and landed at Utah Beach on September 8, 1944 -Ninety four days after D-Day -There was still debris from the invasion in June (00:19:19) Stationed in France Pt. 1 -There were still 60,000 German soldiers in Lorient and Saint-Nazaire -The 94th was being sent to that area to keep them contained -Maintained a line there for about two and a half months, dug into hedgerows -NOTE: The 94th was relieved on January 1, 1945 -Eventually moved to the Siegfried Line -Duty there was to stand guard and insure that the Germans weren’t able to break out -Never managed to get a full night’s sleep -They would receive sporadic shell fire from the Germans �-Remembers spending his nineteenth birthday there (00:22:25) Battle of the Bulge Pt. 1 -In late December they received orders to move to the Ardennes Forest -Remembers that their move was because a regiment of the 66th Division had been lost at sea -The loss wasn’t reported and didn’t learn about it until a year later -Didn’t think much about orders, just followed them -Didn’t know that it was called “the Bulge” until ten years after the fact -Didn’t know if the Allies were definitively winning or losing -Just knew that they were on the move and it felt like they were winning (00:24:40) Stationed in France Pt. 2 -In France they were near a group of Free French Forces -A priest would go and talk to the French forces each night -Remembers one night the priest took a shortcut to get to the French troops -Accidentally killed by one of the guards -Only two times that he felt scared when he was in France -The first time was when he heard that they were getting mortared -Scary because unlike regular artillery you couldn’t hear the mortar shells -Second time was when there was a false alarm for a gas attack -Turned out that it was just the smell of apple blossoms (00:28:20) Battle of the Bulge Pt. 2 -Started moving towards the Ardennes just before January 1, 1945 -Started getting really cold and they were being transported in open cattle trucks -Had to stand up for the whole ride and wear a full pack -Men had to be evacuated due to frostbite -Stayed overnight in a dug out in a wooded area -Remembers a German reconnaissance plane would fly over them at night -Nicknamed it “Bed Check Charlie” -The Germans were still dug in and trying to prevent an Allied counteroffensive -They were moved to the Saar-Moselle Triangle -Ground was so frozen that they had to use dynamite to break up the soil -For three days they advanced west into the Bulge and crossed the Saar River -Didn’t run into direct contact with the Germans, but faced their artillery -Mastered the art of getting shells to explode at the tops of trees -Caused a shower of shrapnel and splinters down on troops -His job was to help pull the wounded and the dead out of the woods -Stationed at a forward aid station -He would have to go out 100, or 200 yards to collect the wounded and the dead -Remembers that a lot of the men he retrieved were horribly mangled -Worst one he saw was a dead man that had been blown in half -Worst of the fighting lasted three days for them -Remembers encountering snipers and shelling in one of the towns that they took -Fought in the Bulge for the January portion of the battle -Battle was over on January 25, 1945 (00:39:54) Advancing into Germany -When the Bulge had been pushed back they started taking more prisoners -They were taking thousands of prisoners each day until they reached the German border �-Took over the towns of Dusseldorf and Ludwigshafen -They were the occupying forces there for a while -Ordered not to interact with German civilians -Remembers that it happened anyway -Dusseldorf was the first time in months that he got to sleep in a bed and take a shower -They reached the Rhine River and prepared to intercept any German forces -Germans were trying desperately to destroy any bridges that spanned the river -By now it was the spring of 1945 and nearing the end of the war -There were still pockets of German resistance -Forgone conclusion was that the Allies were going to win -From there they moved south to Munich, Germany -Guarding a prisoner of war camp there -Remembers they found an undamaged brewery and started brewing beer -You could buy a liter of beer for just $1 -Around this time Dachau was discovered and liberated by American forces -This would have been in late April 1945 -Started hearing rumors about other concentration camps -It was hard to believe at the time -Found a medic’s bag in Germany with a bayonet, a P-38 pistol, and a Nazi medal -Stayed in Munich until just after the end of the war in Europe on May 8, 1945 (00:51:40) Occupation Duties in Czechoslovakia Pt. 1 -Received orders to go to Czechoslovakia to stop the Soviet territory grab -When they were en route to Czechoslovakia he received news that President Roosevelt had died -This would have been a month or more after the actual event -He remembers seeing Bob Hope perform in Czechoslovakia -They were helping the civilians harvest their crops -The civilians were friendly (00:53:04) End of the War & Coming Home -Received the news in Czechoslovakia that the atomic bombs had been dropped on Japan -Men were starting to be sent home based on the number of “points” that they had -Points were assigned based on length of service, combat, and dependents -Soldiers were sent to “Cigarette Camps” in France -Cigarette Camps: Collection areas named after popular brands of cigarettes -He was sent to Camp Chesterfield in the Le Havre area -Stayed there until he received orders to go home -He boarded the SS George Washington in Brest, France -Remembers that the voyage home was one of the roughest he had ever made -Pulled into New York and then was sent to Camp Atterbury, Indiana -By now his brother had been liberated from the POW camp and was already home -His mother was ecstatic that her two sons had made it home from the war alive (00:56:05) Life after the War -He was a part of Michigan’s 52/20 Club -Michigan program to give veterans $20 for fifty two weeks or until they got a job -He looked around for various jobs and worked at various places -Got one job at a hotel washing dishes -Got another job at a Michigan State Park �-He went to Hope College in Holland, Michigan on the GI Bill -Received some college credits from being in the Army -Attended for four years -A lot of veterans went to Hope -Graduated with a bachelor’s degree in sociology -He got a job through his cousin’s husband at a shoe company in Holland -Worked as a travelling salesman for them for two years -Travelled around Wisconsin, North and South Dakota, and Ohio -He got married to a girl that he had met at Hope -Sold butcher supplies for a while -Went to work for a die maker supplier -Worked there for fourteen years -He got another job for a steel company as a salesman -Worked there for twenty three years and retired in 1988 -Bought a little cottage in northern Michigan -After retiring he and his wife bought a mobile home and travelled the country for sixteen years -Eventually moved to Grand Rapids, Michigan and has lived there ever since (01:02:02) Occupation Duties in Czechoslovakia Pt. 2 -Stayed in Czechoslovakia through the summer of 1945 -Remembers that it got really hot in August -Took a trip to the city of Pilsen (or Prague) and met some Soviet troops -Remembers that they were just a bunch of thugs -Other than his trip to a city and helping the civilians nothing major happened there (01:04:07) Veterans’ Organizations Involvement -Excited to go on the 2015 Honor Flight -NOTE: Interview was recorded about one week before the flight in May 2015 -Attended a veterans’ convention in Grand Rapids, Michigan -Shocked at the number of veterans that showed up to it � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_MulderC1764V Title A name given to the resource Mulder, Chuck (Interview outline and video), 2015 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015-05-07 Description An account of the resource Chuck Mulder was born in September 1925 in Grand Haven, Michigan. He grew up there and in the fall of 1943 he was drafted into the Army. He reported for duty on December 21, 1943 and was sent to Camp Crowder, Missouri for basic training and Signal Corps training. In the summer of 1944 he was assigned to an antitank platoon in the Headquarters Company of the 1st Battalion of the 302nd Infantry Regiment of the 94th Infantry Division. He was sent over to Europe in August 1944 and was sent to France on September 8, 1944. He saw action around Lorient and Saint-Nazaire, France and then in January 1945 saw action in the Battle of the Bulge around the Saar-Moselle Triangle. In the spring of 1945 the 94th Infantry Division advanced into Germany and from the end of the war on May 8, 1945 through the summer of 1945 he was stationed in Czechoslovakia as part of the occupation force. He was sent back to the United States in late 1945 and was discharged from the Army at Camp Atterbury, Indiana. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Mulder, Chuck Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Childress, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Moving Image Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/fef441a01e870531ce67be49736a7075.m4v d65883503f8a74d150ae9923b8792ea0 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b04b57ba4c3d323cc9b73f076b5e522f.pdf ddc6655868ec6185c14867f70bdad55a PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veteran’s History Project Name of War: World War II Interviewee Name: John Mulder Length of Interview (00:26:30) Pre-Enlistment  Born in 1925 in Grand Rapids, MI(0:03)  Grew up in Montana during the Depression (0:30)  16 years old when World War II broke out, only completed the eighth grade (0:50)  Moved the family back to Grand Rapids after the war broke out (1:00)  Did not think he would be part of the draft, but the day he turned 18 the draft dropped to 18 years old from 21 years old (1:30)  Had orders to report to Kalamazoo, MI for a physical in 1943 (1:45)  Drafted in June of 1943, got a physical and moved to Ft. Stewart, GA (1:50) Training  Anti-Aircraft camp at Ft. Stewart (2:15)  Two camps because of segregation: one for blacks and one for whites, new experience for him (2:30)  Had basic training at Ft. Stewart, as well as heavy artillery training afterwards (3:20)  Very hot, but they took miles long runs (3:40)  Had a pass after basic was over, before they started artillery (4:00)  Hopped on the back of a bus, had to move to the front because a black family came on the bus. Very new and confusing experience (4:55)  Held up well during basic training because of his work in the fields in Montana (5:20)  Only trained on .50 caliber machine guns and anti-aircraft guns (6:00)  His unit was a mobile unit, based off of trucks towing the guns (7:45)  After anti-aircraft training, the unit was moved to Long Island, NY to learn how to defend an airport (8:00)  Stationed where they manufactured P-31 because they had a big airport (8:20)  Had to get rations trucked in from New York City (16:00)  Liked that duty because it was time away from training (16:30)  Had a great USO, gave them coffee and snacks for free (18:00)  Went back to Ft. Stewart, and had a furlough. During furlough, Europe was invaded by the Allies (8:50) Enlistment      Was shipped overseas, was supposed to go to Cherbourg, France (9:00) Ended up serving with an infantry unit instead (9:20) Was shipped to California to trained to be in the Pacific theater, then went to Washington to embark (10:00) Took an Army transport to Hawaii (10:20) Trained in the hills of Hawaii for the invasion of Okinawa (10:45) �          Sent a black anti-aircraft team to the invasion, so his unit took their place guarding Pearl Harbor (11:00) Big aircraft carrier in dry dock, with half the flight deck blown off due to a Kamikaze pilot (12:00) In the middle of the night one night, all the ships in the harbor blew their whistles, signifying the war was over, but they were two days early (13:00) Heard that the bombs had been dropped, but thought it was just another bombing (13:30) Couldn’t go home because he didn’t have enough points (14:15) Stayed in Hawaii at the Schofield barracks (14:20) Did some training, gun maintenance (14:30) Kept the battery guns set up at all times (15:00) Was discharged the 26th of February, 1945 (15:20) Often took overnight trips to Honolulu and stayed at the USO (18:50) Post-Enlistment       After the service, he got a job with a clothing factory (19:40) Never learned how to drive before entering the service, but bought a car as soon as he got out (20:20) Didn’t keep his first job very long, became a butcher for awhile, then got a job at Steelcase (21:20) Finished high school by correspondence, then the American School in Chicago, IL (21:30) Is thankful he came back alive from the war, but feels that he did not do much for his country (22:00) Learned how to follow orders, how good life is at home while in the Army, also matured greatly during his time in the service (23:00) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context MulderJ Title A name given to the resource Mulder, John (Interview outline and video), 2009 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Mulder, John Description An account of the resource John Mulder was born in 1925 in Grand Rapids, Michigan. His family moved to Montana, but moved back to Grand Rapids after World War II broke out. John was drafted into the US Army when he was 18 years old. After completing basic training in Fort Stewart, Georgia, he also completed anti-aircraft school, in which he learned how to operate mobile anti-aircraft units. After training, he spent the remainder of the war in Hawaii, guarding Pearl Harbor. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2009-09-08 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/37fb072432cb5aa0d110194cde853aa2.m4v c30b08c0925321e7681dba16fb582b0e https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a78ed2a593e0236895bb0fc73c40cf5e.pdf 57f86551530e7419d52a6b43b2aa16c6 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Interviewee’s Name: Robert Mulder Name of War: Korean War Length of Interview: (00:59:15) (00:40) Background Information        Robert was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan He went to Southwest Christian School and then Grand Rapids Christian High School His father had lost his job and house during the Depression and it was always a struggle for him to pay to put his two sons through school Robert graduated from high school in 1947 and began working in painting He was drafted in October 1950 and the Korean War had broken out just a few months earlier Robert had not been paying any attention to the war and did not know anyone that had been drafted He was sent to Fort Sheridan for his induction (3:55) Training  Robert was sent to Camp Atterbury in Indiana for basic training  He had a few first aid classes and went through much physical training  They went through training quickly because the Army had been short on medics  Robert adjusted well to the military discipline, but was not happy that he had only got one week off for Christmas  They took a troop train from Indiana to Seattle and stayed in an old fort with tar paper shacks for a few days (9:50) Overseas  They boarded a converted liberty ship and the voyage took 2 weeks, but they had mostly smooth sailing with nice weather in March  They stopped in Japan for a few weeks and then made their way to Korea  There was a storm on the way to Korea and everyone on the ship was sick  They arrived in Pusan and boarded a train (13:00) Assignment  They arrived at their camp and Robert was assigned to the 38th Medical Company of the 2nd Division and was then also assigned to a medical line company  The 2nd Division had been taking replacements and regrouping when Robert had been assigned �  Many men befriended Robert because he was a medic and they wanted him to watch their backs Typically most men tried not to become good friends with others because they never knew if or when they might lose them (18:30) Patrols  Robert’s first experience with combat was like “cops and robbers”  He had wanted to stand and see what was going on, but was ordered to stay down and out of the way of fire  They took over an abandoned small village during one of their patrols  They were ambushed with grenades and small arms fire during their 2nd patrol  Someone had been hit in the back and it was the first time that Robert had to treat someone (24:30) Wounded  The North Koreans always attacked at night; they were very loud and indiscreet  It was easy to locate them and pinpoint where their weapons were  One night Robert had been ordered to leave the area and take cover near a hill  He was hit by a mortar shell and his whole body became numb  Men ran into help him and helped carry him away to find a medic from another company  Robert was patched up at a medical station and sent to Seoul to board a hospital ship  They operated on both his shoulders and leg to remove the shrapnel and also had to reset his arm  Robert was in a hospital from May through September in Japan and everyone had assured him that he would be going home once he had healed (30:20) Guard Duty  Once Robert had healed he was not sent home, but instead returned to the 38th Medical Company  He got in the middle of another fire fight right away  Robert often worked guard duty and on tagging dead bodies  He enjoyed working on guard duty at the medical station because he had been taken off the line  Robert eventually got frost bite and was sent to another hospital in Japan (38:55) Back to Michigan  Robert was sent back to the US in December of 1951and spent time at Percy Jones Army Hospital in Battle Creek, MI  They operated on his arm in February 1952 to try to get some of the feeling back �  Robert was then sent to Fort Custer in Michigan to work on guard duty while he waited for his papers to be discharged He was finally done with his service in July 1952 (44:30) After Service  Robert went back to work in painting and after a few months got a job working on small motors  He then began working on installing sound systems when the new HIFI came around, but was not really making much money  Robert got married and then found a good job working in electrical supply until he retired � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context MulderR Title A name given to the resource Mulder, Robert P. (Interview outline and video), 2008 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Mulder, Robert P. Description An account of the resource Robert Mulder was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan and graduated from Grand Rapids Christian High School in 1947. He was drafted into the Army in October of 1950 and went through medic training at Camp Adenberry in Indiana. He went through training quickly because the Army had been short on medics. Robert was shipped to Korea and assigned to the 38th Medical Company of the 2nd Division. Robert was eventually wounded and sent to a hospital ship in Seoul to have all the shrapnel removed from his arms and legs. After he healed Robert worked on guard duty at the medic station until he got frost bite and was sent to another hospital. Robert was then sent back to Michigan and discharged in July of 1952. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2008-09-22 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d71f413176de9eb8f78116da85d24208.pdf 6d0636ea6cdd1eb8a3049437f752a731 PDF Text Text GRAND HAVEN SESQUIFEST 150 Years Mulligan's Hollow Recreation Park POW July 7 & 8 1984 Men's & Women's :'.°'l<U;G.r: Cui1i11'L,;S1l 1 $500 first._ All Categories 111B{.X.l?rize $ $300 for 1st (8) Drums registered ... must live 50 miles outside of Grand Haven Head Dancers Jerry Hawpetoss Virginia Pigeon DRUM CONTb.:S'l' 1st - $300.00 2nd - $200.00 3rd - $100.00 ;ll·:.'.D VE'l'F:l/AN Frank hish PUBLIC WELCOME! Grand Entry Saturday 1:00 p.m. Sunday 1:00 p.m. Registration opens Friday - 6 to 10 p.m. Saturday - 9 to 12 noon No Exceptions .A (I /f'~,~~ TRADER FEE $50 Contact Ike Peters Phone 616/530-8790 4240 Grandville, Michigan ~ FOR MORE INFORMATION, CONTACT: Phil Memberto 774-8331 (work) 451-9697 (home) Jerry Pigeon 451-8451 (work) Bill Memberto 363-8471 (home) �Mulllgan's Hollow Recreation Park 150 Years POW July 7 & 8, 1984 REGISTRATION OPENS Friday 6 to 10 p.m. Saturday 9 to 12 Noon No Exceptions TRADER FEE $75 for the weekend. CONTACT Ike Peters 4240 Chicago Drive Grandville, Ml (616) 530-8790 NO IMPORTS Head Dancers Virginia Pigeon Jerry Hawpetoss Grand Entry Saturday - 1:00 p.m. ,'~1.A'....'U' Sunday - 1:00 p.m. Head Veteran Mr. Frank Bush Drum Contest 1st $300 2nd $200 3rd $100 M.C. · Mr. John Balley $300 for the 1st (8) drums registered. Must live 50 mlles outside Grand Haven. Dance Contest 17 yrs. & up 1st $500 Men's/Women's 2nd $300 Trad.lFancy 3rd $200 10 to 16 yrs. OoyslGirls Trad./Fancy 1st $300 2nd $200 3rd $100 1st 25 families to register and participate will receive $50 ... must live 50 mlles outside Grand Haven. Camping available to participants. ii'!'JI ~ Cash prizes for boys & girls categories under 10 years. NO DRUGS OR ALCOHOL Public Welcome! For more information, contact: Phil Memberto Jerry Pigeon Bill Memberto (616) 774-8331 (work) 451-9697 (home) (616) 451-8451 (work) (616) 363-8471 (home) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Native American Publication Collection Subject The topic of the resource Native Americans Indians of North America Anthropology Indians of North America -- Michigan -- Periodicals Michigan Description An account of the resource Selected digital surrogates of published and unpublished materials from the Edward V. Gillis Native American publication collection dealing with different aspects of human culture and anthropology, with an emphasis on Native American people, events, organizations, and activities in Michigan. Includes newsletters, event programs, flyers, posters and other printed materials. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Gillis, Edward V. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/446">Edward V. Gillis Native American Publication Collection (RHC-14)</a> Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-02-21 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Relation A related resource Gi-gikinomaage-min Project (Kutsche Office of Local History) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-14 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1958-2000 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/446">Edward V. Gillis Native American publication collection, RHC-14</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-14_grand-haven-sesquifest_1984-07 Title A name given to the resource Grand Haven Sesquifest Pow Wow, July 1984 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1984-07 Description An account of the resource Grand Haven Sesquifest Pow Wow flyer, Grand Haven MI, July 7-8, 1984, collected by Edward Gillis include.d as part of his Native American publication collection. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Mulligan's Hollow Recreation Park Subject The topic of the resource Indians of North America -- Michigan -- Periodicals Indians of North America Michigan Michigan -- Grand Rapids Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f9ef82c59576e8f424483770ae6807c9.m4v 8e533579c09b834f7bc9ccd47be282ef https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/14afe07d687fd607b8eaa653c4f9ae58.pdf ac840e800722638c8f8275ff7f632d68 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview William Mulvey World War II, Korea, and Vietnam Total Time: 2:22:28 [DVD 1] 1:01:18 [DVD 2] DVD 1 Pre-Enlistment and Childhood (0:00:13)      Born in Chicago, Illinois, in 1918 His parents were out of work during the Depression. He attended school through the 8th grade. (0:03:10) He worked for the WPA before he joined the Navy in 1937. He decided to join the Navy because he saw films about the Navy. Training (0:06:17)  He was sent to Newport, Rhode Island for basic training. They were there for 21 days before they got leave prior to being shipped out.  (0:09:06) He was sent to Norfolk, Virginia after basic, where he was placed on the battleship USS Texas, which was a World War I era battleship. Active Duty (0:10:50)         The ship was then sent to Annapolis, Maryland, where they picked up midshipmen and then to Europe (0:11:35) He was a seaman on the ship. (0:11:50) When they returned, he was transferred to the USS Boise. (0:12:55)His first trip on the ocean in the Boise was on a ferry from Providence, Rhode Island, to New York. On his first cruise, they were sent to Cape Town, South Africa, via Monrovia, Liberia. (0:15:41) The USS Boise was then sent to the World’s Fair in New York City, and once that was complete to Pearl Harbor in 1939. (0:17:30) In 1941, they escorted a convoy of Marines to Manila. They stayed close to the Philippines after the war began, and he was able to go ashore in Manila while they were near there. (0:19:50) He remembers the Sunday morning of the Pearl Harbor Attack. He watched Clark Air Force Base in Manila getting bombed. They spent the day painting the ship in camouflage. (0:23:10) They then went to the Dutch East Indies. They were the most modern American ship in the area, and they took the Dutch Admiral aboard and attempted to catch up to the rest of the Dutch fleet. They ran into a reef and had to detour to Borneo. �                 (0:27:00) In Borneo, he signed up for another tour of duty. (0:27:15) They were then sent to Port Darwin, Australia, then Sri Lanka, and finally Bombay, India where they stayed for 3 months while the ship was being fixed. (0:32:00) They spent their time in India cleaning the ship and touring Bombay. (0:32:40) After Bombay, they were sent to Australia and then New Zealand and back to the United States for refurbishing. (0:33:45) They were sent to Guadalcanal after refurbishing where they took part in a naval battle[Battle of Cape Esperance]. They attacked some cruisers and sunk several of them. The Boise had 3 of its turrets hit. (0:41:15) After the battle, they went to a repair island where they patched up the damage. They were then sent to the Philadelphia Naval Yards to get a full repair. (0:42:35) While they were in Philadelphia, he went to various places doing speeches and drumming up support and War Bonds. (0:50:15) He was then sent on a small sub chaser from New Orleans to Miami to be outfitted. (0:57:45) They were ordered to take the ship to Pearl Harbor. They had to stop in Guatemala for fuel, and then proceeded through the Panama Canal and on to Pearl Harbor. (0:59:45) He asked for reassignment when he got to Pearl Harbor, and was placed on the USS Indianapolis. He was then made Chief Master at Arms. (1:02:55) They were sent first to Tarawa, and then hopped from Island to Island assisting with landings. (1:08:15) They assisted in the landings on Iwo Jima, and they were able to see the flag being raised over Mt. Suribachi. (1:11:00) He worked organizing and working as a police of sorts on the ship. The ship was segregated while he was on board. They had separate quarters for the African American sailors. (1:12:25) They were attacked by Kamikazes while they were at Iwo Jima. A plane codenamed ‘Betty’ [twin-engine bomber] hit them, and they lost several men. They were assisted by the USS New Jersey from whom they got water, as their evaporator was hit and that was their main source of fresh water. This forced them to return to the United States to make repairs at San Francisco, California. (1:16:20) While they were in San Francisco, they were assigned to carry the atomic bomb. The bomb was carried on deck, under heavy guard. They took it to the Marianas. They delivered it several days before the bombings took place. They dropped the bomb off and immediately headed towards Guam to pick up an escort. (1:22:05) They were not zigzagging on the way to Guam, which may have been part of the reason why the ship was torpedoed. (1:22:40) When the ship was torpedoed, it was the middle of the night and he was sleeping. He remembers the ship jerking twice, which brought him out to the quarterdeck. He was sent by the commander to investigate what the problem was. At the time, they thought a boiler had exploded, but a second explosion made them realize that they had been torpedoed. �      (1:24:55) He had no lifejacket when he went into the water, and he had to swim through fuel oil to get a life jacket from another sailor. Some of the life jackets that they had leaked air, so they had to continually refill the jacket with air via a tube. However, he had a kapok lifejacket, which floated much better than the inflatable jackets. (1:29:55) When day broke after the accident, he was covered in fuel oil, and the seas were rough. There were no provisions available to him, and he didn’t see anyone else. (1:32:05) He didn’t see any sharks or shark attacks while he was on the water. (1:32:25) He was in the middle of the pack of men that had jumped off of the ship. (1:32:45) He was in the water 4 days and 5 nights when they were finally spotted by a B24 bomber that was coincidentally being fixed in flight. The plane dropped its water cans, and radioed back to base. A flying boat was sent out next and even though it was not supposed to land, it was able to. There were also provided rafts, which were insufficient. He was able to get into one of the rafts with some assistance. (1:44:20) He was taken to Palau, where he was twice given the last rites. He was then put on the hospital ship Tranquility. Post-World War II (1:47:30)    He arrived back in the United States, and he applied for a job in the trucking industry. (1:48:48) He eventually signed up for the Naval Reserves. (1:50:35) He received two Purple Hearts for his service. One was for the shipwreck and the other was for an incident that happened on the base in Auckland, New Zealand. Re-Activation (1:53:15)       He was called up for service during the Korean War. He was sent to Philadelphia and then to New Jersey where he was placed on a guided missile cruiser. (1:54:50) They were sent to the North Atlantic where they practiced with the missile launchers that had been added to the ship. (2:00:00) They were also testing airplane launchers or catapults. (2:01:33) They took the ship back to the yard and fixed the problems with the launchers. (2:02:20) They helped to install catapults on the aircraft carrier USS Ticonderoga as well. (2:02:50) He was then assigned to the USS Ticonderoga, which sailed around the Drake Passage and got caught in a storm. They were hit a large wave which bent one of the structural I-beams on the ship, and they had to pull into port in Santiago, Chile. They eventually had to take the ship back by only calm water to the US via the Panama Canal. �  (2:06:20) He stayed on active duty until the 1960s. (2:07:00) He worked on a troop transport ship during the Vietnam War. Their ship could take a variety of different pieces of equipment for beach landings. He worked the gyros on the ship. Miscellaneous (2:14:50)    He remembers, while he was in the water after the sinking of the Indianapolis, they tied themselves together as a group to help each other. (2:17:55) One of the men in the group thought that he could swim down to the ship and get water. On the first attempt, he failed and almost drowned, and on the second try he did drown. (2:19:45) Some of the men gave him their dog tags, with the thought that they may die. END DVD 1 (2:22:28) BEGIN DVD 2 Active Duty (0:00:00)               Pictures of his medal collection A commemorative poster (0:01:31) Medal collection. (0:03:01) There was a book written about the USS Indianapolis sinking. (0:07:30) He was not interviewed for the court martial hearings against the captain. (0:08:30) All of the men that were not sleeping at the time of the sinking were likely drowned quickly, as the hatches to the sleeping quarters were cumbersome to open. He also refutes the claim that an SOS signal was sent, because the speed with which the ship sunk would not have allowed the time for the message to be relayed. (0:11:10) They communicated with seaplanes via lights and flags. (0:12:45) When he was at Guadalcanal on the USS Boise, they were fighting the heavy cruisers from the side. (0:15:15) They did not meet any enemy battleships, as far as he knows. (0:16:02) They had burials at sea for the men who died at Guadalcanal. (0:17:08) They would drop anchor off of islands with the USS Indianapolis, and being the flagship they would they would begin the fire on the island. (0:20:30) They would fire at Kamikazes but it usually made little difference unless the bomb was hit. (0:22:50) They followed a convoy back to the United States after being hit by the Kamikaze. (0:26:30) The nuclear bomb, when it was on board, was guarded by special troops. �      (0:27:30) At times, he would wear a Roentgen Tag to detect radiation levels. (0:29:23) When he went into the Navy in 1937, they had very primitive conditions, and the bases were not developed. (0:40:30) They had a very regimented routine, including a limited supply of fresh water. They would also scrub the decks on a regular basis. (0:46:30) They painted the ship so that barnacles wouldn’t attack themselves to the hull. (0:49:40) They were fed on deck with picnic tables suspended from hooks. They waited in lines by rank, so the seamen would often get the bad cuts of meat, or the worst food. (0:55:05) His mother had 5 children in the service. END DVD 2 (1:01:18) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context MulveyW Title A name given to the resource Mulvey, William (Interview outline and video), 2009 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Mulvey, William Description An account of the resource William Mulvey joined the Navy in 1937 and served in World War II, the Korean War, and the Vietnam War. William joined the Navy in 1937, and was trained in Rhode Island before he was placed on the USS Texas. He was then transferred to the USS Boise where he remained until part way through World War II. He participated in the Battle of Cape Esperance off Guadalcanal on the Boise, and was then transferred to the USS Indianapolis, and served on that ship until a Japanese submarine sank it. He survived the aftermath, and joined the Naval Reserves upon his return to the United States. He was reactivated for the Korean War, and served in several capacities including on the USS Ticonderoga. He also served in the Vietnam War on a ship used for beach landings. He eventually retired from the Navy in the 1960s. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Navy Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2009-09-15 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/30cb63a01e6addba8972f2d1b7130dcf.pdf 8532ac07605ae66986da98dea49ab3ec PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Carlos Munoz Interviewer: Jose Jimenez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 5/19/2013 Runtime: 01:05:02 Biography and Description Oral history of Carlos Munoz, interviewed by Jose “Cha-Cha” Jimenez on May 19, 2013 about the Young Lords in Lincoln Park. "The Young Lords in Lincoln Park" collection grows out of decades of work to more fully document the history of Chicago's Puerto Rican community which gave birth to the Young Lords Organization and later, the Young Lords Party. Founded by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, the Young Lords became one of the premier struggles for international human rights. Where thriving church congregations, social and �political clubs, restaurants, groceries, and family residences once flourished, successive waves of urban renewal and gentrification forcibly displaced most of those Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, working-class and impoverished families, and their children in the 1950s and 1960s. Today these same families and activists also risk losing their history. �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: Okay, Carlos. If you can give me your name and where you were born, and where you work. CARLOS MUÑOZ JR.: Okay. Right. My name is Carlos Muñoz, Jr. I was born in El Paso, Texas in 1939. The particular day, it is August 25, 1939. I am the son of poor Mexican working-class immigrants, undocumented at the time. And my father was from Chihuahua, Mexico, my mother from Durango, Mexico. They came during the Mexican Revolution of 1910 as children. And the revolutionaries at that time would drop off their kids at the border there in El Paso so -- to keep them safe from the violence of the revolution. My mother’s father, my grandfather, was one of Pancho Villa’s generals [00:01:00] and he was assassinated the year my mother was born, actually so -JJ: (inaudible)? CM: His name is [Calixto Contreras?], General Calixto Contreras. And so that was my maternal grandfather. And I was born in El Paso and when I was 12 years old, we moved to East LA, East Los Angeles, California where I was raised. And I’ve been in California ever since, since 1952 when I was 12 years old. JJ: Can you describe or what do you remember from that experience in East LA? CMJ: Yeah. When I was in East LA, we lived in all the barrios there were -- there were different gangs in the streets. Since my mother died when I was three [00:02:00] and my father remarried, my stepmother and I didn’t get along so I wasn’t home too much. And I became part of gang life. And I’m lucky to be alive today, 1 �actually. The kids that I grew up in East LA with either wound up in prison or dead. JJ: What do you mean? CMJ: Well, there was various gangs. The one that I was the most-time member of was the Olive Street Gang in a barrio called Bunker Hill. That was right in the boundary East LA/downtown LA area and that’s the one that I was really the longest and the one that I walked away from. At the age of 15, I got tired of fighting and decided that I was going to do something different with my life. And I decided to play baseball instead of hanging out in the streets. So then I started in high school. [00:03:00] I became an athlete and a pretty good student. And then I graduated with honors from high school. I was the only quote, “vato loco,” end quote, that graduated with honors. “Vato loco” at that time for us was a reference to those of us that were products of the barrio, products of gang life in the barrio, which is now known more like homeboys. That was the vato loco designation at that time. JJ: Was the barrio always that Chicano, Mexicano or...? CMJ: Yeah. Where -- in East LA at that time, I got there in the East LA area in general, it was predominantly Mexican, I would say, 95 percent Mexican. And there was a clear demarcation, East LA and downtown LA were all Mexican, 95 percent, in terms of ethnic/racial groups. And then southern -- South Central LA [00:04:00] at that time was all Black, Hollywood/West LA was all white. It was kind of like you know, that kind of a demarcation. Nowadays, you go to LA and man, it’s a mixture of Central American and Mexican. It’s no longer just Mexican. This is a 2 �result of the civil wars and revolutions that were fought in Central America in the late ’70s and early ’80s. A lot of political refugees came over and they would taste (laughs) East LA, too, or South Central LA. But now, it’s been a whole different ball game, a whole different landscape in terms of racial and ethnicity and backgrounds of people in LA. JJ: But you said the first place you came to was in Texas, in Tejas, in Texas. CMJ: The first place, when we got to East LA? JJ: Before East LA. CMJ: Oh, before East LA. In El Paso where I was born, in El Paso, yeah. I was born in El Segundo Barrio in El Paso. JJ: What was that like? CMJ: And at that time in El Paso, [00:05:00] talking about segregation, it was all segregated. Mexicanos or Mexican Americans, we all lived on the side of the city that was close to the bridge to Juárez, Mexico and that was El Segundo Barrio. And then the downtown LA was kind of like the boundary. When you passed downtown LA, it was all white. JJ: In El Paso, Texas. CMJ: In El Paso, Texas, it was all white. And below the downtown center, it was Segundo Barrio, and that’s the way El Paso was when I -- between the ages of 1 and 12 when I was born, so it was... And when I went to East LA, it was kind of similar but not quite as segregated. JJ: So how many brothers and sisters? Were they born here or...? CMJ: I’m the only one. I was a real weirdo growing up because all my friends had 3 �brothers and sisters. As you know, Mexicanos, Boricuas, and all of us have a lot of big, extended families. [00:06:00] And my mother died when I was three so my stepmother couldn’t have kids so I don’t even have brothers or sisters that are half. So I was -- I grew up by myself, yeah. So I was the only one that had that background that I knew about. (laughs) JJ: Okay, so then, okay. So now, you’re in East LA and you’re starting -- you’re in school? You’re... CMJ: Yeah. I went to Belmont High School in downtown LA that it was the first time in my life that I experienced an environment that was mixed. You know, kids from different walks of life and races. We were the only school in the whole city at that time that had foreign students. So consequently, in the student body was kids from all over the world there. Mexicans, Asians, Europeans even, Africans, Hawaiians, Polynesians, and [00:07:00] so it was -- it was a good experience. Because I realized, “Wow, you know what? There’s other people in the world that I can relate to.” So my best friend, actually, was a Japanese American that was a part of the only gang in LA that was a Japanese American gang. [Baby Black Ones?] they called themselves. So he and I kind of grew up together in high school and I learned Japanese from his parents and he learned Spanish from me. (laughs) Which came in handy when I went in the military when I volunteered draft after high school. Mm-hmm. Oh, let me give a story about high school that I just thought about. It’s important to capture the historic moment that I was growing up. During the 1950s when I was in high school, segregation and racism was pretty bolder. Even though the school that I went to was mixed, 4 �[00:08:00] if you were Mexican or Black, you automatically -- if you were a guy, you automatically got put into the Industrial Arts major. Woodshop, you know? That kind of thing. Not the academic major. And so I was asked when I was making the transition from junior high or middle school to high school, I was asked by my white counselor what does your father do? And I said my father works with his hands. Cheap labor. Construction. And she told me, “Okay, well, that’s a very honorable profession. You should follow in your father’s footsteps.” So anyhow, I go home that day, “Pa, pa, guess what? I’m going to follow in your footsteps,” and he got very angry. I was going to say another word but I guess I better keep it clean with the language. He got very angry and he told me, “Mijo, you go and tell that SOB that I don’t want you following in my footsteps. I want you to work with a pencil.” My father only got about a fourth-grade education. So to him in his mind, working with a pencil or not having to [00:09:00] work with a pick and shovel was a major improvement. It was, to him, success. He wanted me to finish high school and become a person that worked with a pencil. So I went back and told this counselor, “Yeah, you know, my father doesn’t want me to follow in his footsteps,” I said. “So he wants me to work with a pencil.” So she says, “Hm, work with a pencil.” So she says, “Okay, we’re going to put you in a business major and that way, you can become a used car salesman or something like that.” “Okay, sounds cool.” So I go to my first class. It was a typing class and all girls, right? All the girls had the typing class. And so I was really happy because I’m the only guy and all these girls, right? And I learn how to type. And I didn’t realize that at the time but it saved my life later on when I 5 �was in the military because it got me out of the combat zone and I got to work in an office typing. And so I was able to get a high school diploma in [00:10:00] a business major which did not give me the courses I needed for college. I never took chemistry, algebra, science, those courses that are needed to go into college, so have to go to a community college to make those courses up. So I was trying to -- when I graduated, I went to community college and I picked -- I couldn’t find an algebra class so I took a class that was called geometry. I didn’t know what geometry was. But it sounded like algebra and so I became part of that class. For the first time in my life, I was beginning to flunk a class because I had always gotten good grades. Even though I was a street kid, I still like school and I was doing good in school. And so but then it kind of hit me. “Maybe these white people, maybe they’re right. Maybe we Mexicans don’t have what it takes. Maybe we are intellectually inferior,” you know? So I began to question my ability intellectually. So I dropped out of college and I volunteered draft. [00:11:00] This is just before Vietnam broke out. So because I learned how to -JJ: So you volunteered? CMJ: Yeah, I went to a draft. Yeah, there was no war. JJ: Oh, it was a draft. Okay. CMJ: Draft, volunteer draft. Yeah. And in those days, it was mandatory that you served in the army. There was a draft, right? So you’d have to sign up for the draft. But I decided, “You know, I don’t want to wait. I want to go and get it over with,” so this place called volunteer draft means that you let the draft board know, “Hey, I want to go now. I don’t want to wait until I’m called.” So I decided to go in 6 �and get it out of the way. I didn’t know what was going to be happening down the road. So because I knew how to type, to make a long story short, I would up in army intelligence in the G-2 section typing stuff like that. That was no big deal. I’m in intelligence and I didn’t even know what it meant. But that was just -- it was a typing job so I was pretty happy there. And they sent me to South [00:12:00] Korea. And in South Korea, I began to get you might say a sense of something was wrong. Because even though I was a poor kid from the barrio, I was programmed to be very patriotic, I was programmed to believe the myth of democracy, that we had a democratic society, that we represented the best in the world. JJ: I was going to ask you that. So you were -- at that time when you joined, you were very patriotic. CMJ: Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. I just want to serve my country, right? But in spite of the fact we were victimized by racism and all of the other stuff. But growing up, you don’t think about those things. You just assume things are the way they are. So I didn’t question anything like none of us really do at that age. So I went in the volunteer draft to serve my country. So anyway, to make a long story short, I wind up -- I was trying to be a killer like all soldiers, combat-ready and everything else. But because I knew how to type, they put me in army intelligence. So I wound up going to South Korea and become part of the Korean Military Advisory Group. [00:13:00] So when I was there, it was a coup d’etat in 1961. And I started thinking, “Wait a minute. If I’m an “American soldier” defending democracy, why am I being ordered not to try to stop this coup d’etat because it’s 7 �a democratic government?” So here we were as an army, as another -- as a democracy supposedly putting into power a military dictatorship. It didn’t make sense to me. Because something is rotten somewhere and I didn’t -JJ: This is South Korea? CMJ: It’s South Korea. So that began -- I began to question what I was doing there and begin to think something was wrong. Oh, I was 20 years old. What did I know, really? I wasn’t that political yet. But it was my first time in my life that I began to think politically in a way. This to me is a contradiction. I’m here to protect democracy in this potential country, an ally [00:14:00] of ours, and at the same time, I’m allowing a military dictatorship to take power and not do anything about it. So it didn’t make sense to me. So then, at the time Vietnam started happening, it was a secret war in 1962. And so I -- they wanted me to volunteer to go to Vietnam to become one of the first military advisors, set up a Vietnam Military Advisory Group since I was in the Korean Military Advisory Group. And by that time, I started questioning because I was getting -- my job in the intelligence office was to gather all the reports from the CIA coming in, documenting them and then passing them to the general’s office. But I started reading this stuff, you know? So something -- man, we’re going into this country. And again, another democracy supposedly. And where do we go in -- we’re going to go in there and become part of a war there. It doesn’t make sense [00:15:00] to me, you know? So I refused to go to Vietnam. Instead, I was quote -- I wasn’t court martialed because they couldn’t court martial me because there was no public war going on so they could not accuse me of being a disloyal 8 �soldier. Instead, I got two weeks of prison and let’s say kind of a insubordination kind of a charge. Article 15 they called it which doesn’t go on your record when you get discharged. So I got discharged with an honorable discharge which later on qualified me for the GI Bill to go to college. So I got out of the army and the first thing I did when I got out, I joined the Vietnam Veterans Against the War organization and I became an activist against the war as a veterano, as a veteran. And so that was my real transition to being [00:16:00] an activist and beginning to get very political. And then my next -- after that -JJ: Who was leading it at that time? What was -- CMJ: John Kerry. JJ: Oh, John Kerry? CMJ: Senator John Kerry. JJ: Vietnam Veterans Against the War? CMJ: Yeah, yeah. Matter of fact, John Kerry was one of those Vietnam veterans who got a medal of honor, actually, in Vietnam when the combat started really heavy. He was wounded and then he, when he served his duty, he became part of the anti-war movement because like me, he didn’t agree with what we were doing over there. A lot of us; Not just him and me, but you know, a whole bunch of veterans beginning to question what we were doing there. And so all these veterans together begun to get organized so we got to speak out against the war. And although I didn’t serve in Vietnam because I refused to go, I still got classified as the Vietnam War-era veteran meaning that I was in a combat [00:17:00] zone so at that time, we all qualified for the GI Bill so I got to know these guys. And so when John Kerry and others organized the 9 �movement against the war, I joined up. So John Kerry was one of the Vietnam vets that took all their medals off and threw them over there in a protest action in the steps of the White House. In the 19- -- it must’ve been in 19- what, 1966, ’67, around there. And so he was a real hero to me because this guy, this is damn courageous what he’s doing. Of course, later on he became a politician and nowadays, he’s part of the ruling class apparatus, right? But for that moment, he was a good radical, a good anti-war activist. So that got me going. And I haven’t stopped since. I’ve been an activist. I’ve been out there speaking out against the war, speaking out against racism, [00:18:00] sexism, you name it. I’ve been doing it and I’m still doing it. Right now, I’m involved with -- I’m a member of Veterans for Peace and we represent the anti-war movement in this country. And I’m also a part of the immigrant rights movement. I’m a member of the National Network for Immigrant and Refugee Rights in Oakland. So I’ve been an activist ever since. But to go back after I got out of the military is that when I got back, then I went back to school with the GI Bill. And at that time, there were very few of us Mexicans in the area going to school. So we decided -- I started looking around to see if I bumped into any other students that were Mexicans or Latinos and I couldn’t find any. But eventually, little by little, people started coming out of the closet. People got, “Okay, I’m not -- [00:19:00] I’m not Spanish American, I’m not Spanish, I’m Mexican. Órale.” You know, “Friday, let’s get together. Let’s get organized.” JJ: This is recently. CMJ: This is in 1960 -- late ’60s. JJ: Late ’60s, okay. CMJ: So in ’67, we founded the United Mexican American Student organization and I 10 �became a president of that organization. And so then we started thinking about, “Well, you know what?” By that time, by the way, the farm worker movement had started so Dr. King, of course, and the Civil Rights Movement was going strong. So we were being inspired by Dr. King and by Cesar Chavez. And on top of that, there was all kinds of revolutions happening in the world. So we were all connected to all that and we were all being inspired by all the action going on out there against US imperialism and colo- -- anti-colonialist movements as well as here at home civil rights and farm worker rights and so forth. [00:20:00] So we decided to do something that had not been done yet. We looked at each other and said, “You know? We’re supporting all these revolutions, we’re supporting the civil rights movement, we’re supporting the farm working movement. What about our own backyard, the urban barrios? What are we doing there? We’re not doing anything. We got to do something. So we got to start our own movement.” So we started to organize and say, “Well, what can we do to organize a movement? We can start with the schools.” Because all of us, we looked at each other, we all had a hassle to try to get what we got. We were not put into academic tracks, we were -- we had to deal with that vulgar tracking system, a racist system that kept us out of the universities. So we decided to organize a movement against racism in public schools in East LA. So we did that in 1968. JJ: Was that the walkouts? CMJ: Yeah. So then in 1968, we started doing that and we had an organizing committee that I was a part of. [00:21:00] To make a long story short, we pulled it 11 �off. We had -- it became -- there’s a document in my book. We had the -JJ: Can we see the book for a second. CMJ: Yeah. This is the book here. It’s called Youth, Identity, Power: The Chicano Movement and I document all this history I’m talking about right now that -- okay? And I became part of this organizing effort and we -- our concern was to make demands to the school board that we wanted -- we didn’t want racist teachers anymore. That we wanted to get our own teachers in there. That we wanted the classes that need to be taught about Mexican culture and Mexican history and about the role that we played as a people about developing the United States of America society, right? So all of that took place. It was a segregated schooling situation [00:22:00] so it was also anti-racist and anti-segregation. So we pulled it off. Thousands of kids walked out of the schools in East LA. JJ: But I mean how did you go about (inaudible)? How did you organize the -- how did you lead that? CMJ: Yeah. Well, what we did -- yeah, how we organized it was okay, we went out into the community and talked to parents. Talked to the people in the labor movement out there, in unions. Talked to them about what we thought was important for them to support us in trying to do this. To put the demand -- oh, we were asking for nothing revolutionary, really. But really, what we wanted to do is to have -- is to make a change in the educational system so that Chicano kids and Mexican kids could have access to a college, to be prepared for a college. You know, very reformist kind of thing. JJ: Did you have a petition or I mean how did you...? 12 �CMJ: We had petitions signed and all that. [00:23:00] And yeah, we did that. And but more importantly, we had parents join in our organizing efforts and say -- so they talked to other parents. The high school kids talked to other high school kids. So we had a different -- a whole network going on throughout East LA and other parts of LA city, as well. And so then, we -- during the month of March, we pulled it off. We started saying we were going to have a walkout, we were going to call it the blowouts to get everybody out of the school, to march to the school board, make these demands which we did. So we had all of these kids coming out. We didn’t expect it to be that great. We thought if we could get a handful of kids out, maybe some pickets and all that, we won’t be -- but man, oh, just about all the kids walked out. And in that whole week’s time, it took -- we stopped -- we brought the school system to a stop. Kids were walking out every day and over 10,000 kids walking out every day. [00:24:00] It was a very historic moment that we didn’t realize it at the time, mind you. Nobody had written a book like this yet? (laughs) We didn’t know that what we were doing was historical. It was just something that we had to do to start the struggle, to make sure that we were going to be org-, organized throughout the Southwest. So we pulled it off and sure enough, walkouts in East LA became our Selma, Alabama in a sense. They started the Civil Rights Movement in the South, we started the Civil Rights Movement in the Southwest. And that we called it the Chicano Movement. Pretty excited that we could talk about Chicano power, Chicano meaning to us a reconnection to our Indigenous past. Chicano, we defined it as a label, a name that came from Mexica. Mexica culture in Mexico, the original, you know, the 13 �Aztec, known as the Aztecs. So out of the Mexica came [00:25:00] Mexicano, Mexico. So that’s Mexico today, right? The name, the word Mexico. So we said, “Okay, so we’re going to be Mexicano.” Well, we’re not Mexican so we’re Chicano. You just cut out the M-e. We were born in US, okay, we can’t be Mexicanos because we’re not Mexican, we’re Mexican Americans. So we’re going to cut it short, Mexi, we’re going to cut that part out and it’s Chicano only, right? So we went through a lot of discussions about this but we decided that Chicano would become our new identity. That represented rejection of assimilation and basically, it represented the decolonizing of our people. Because we learned about the history, the true history, of how we got colonized. How the Southwest used to be Mexico and there was this war that was fought that the US made against Mexico to take over half of the Mexican [00:26:00] nation and territory. So we sort of begun to redefine ourselves as colonized people as opposed to “Americans,” right? So that’s what we did. Now, what happened after that, after the walkouts, about a few weeks later, 13 of us unbeknownst to us through secret grand juries and also through the freedom -the COINTELPRO. The FBI counterintelligence program that we did not know at the time was involved with these secret proceedings of indictment. I learned that later on after I became a scholar and I did the research. Based on the Freedom of Information Act, I was able to get all these documents about how the FBI had been spying on me and others -- those of us that were organizers. And so we got arrested, we got put into [00:27:00] prison for -- on the charges of conspiracy to disrupt the school system of LA city, of Los Angeles. And -- 14 �JJ: Right after the walkouts? CMJ: Right after the walkouts. A few weeks after the walkouts. JJ: You said 13 people or... CMJ: Thirteen of us, 13 activists. And I was -- there were two of us, we were leaders of UMAS. I was one of them, the other was Moctesuma Esparza from UCLA and myself from East -- from Cal State LA. And then Sal Castro, a high school teacher, may he rest in peace. He just passed away a couple of weeks ago. A dear friend of mine and comrade. And so 13 of us were indicted for conspiracy. And so we were put into prison for a few -- about a week or so. And then we went out on bail. In my case, the American Civil Liberties Union [00:28:00] bailed me out and then everybody else had other lawyers. So we were all facing 66 years in prison for the crime of organizing the walkouts. So after that, that added fuel to the fire. JJ: Sixty-six years. CMJ: Sixty-six years. Looking at it, you -- listening to it now, you say, “That is ridiculous. (laughs) That’s absurd.” But back then, it’s like a [mash?]. It’s a long time. JJ: And these were people that had no previous records or... CMJ: No previous record. We’re all activists, you know? But again, it was part of the COINTELPRO, a program that they decided that they would go after us before we -- in other words, at that moment in history, the FBI had its hands full with the Black Power movement and Civil Rights Movement, white radicalism, anti-war and all that. So they didn’t want to have a Brown front emerge, you know? And - 15 �JJ: They had the Young Lords. (laughs) CMJ: Yeah, they had the Young Lords in Chicago and [00:29:00] the Young Lords in New York eventually. So they didn’t want to have what happened in ’69 a year later, the unification of the Young Lords with the Chicano Movement that took place in Denver, Colorado in ’69. They wanted to prevent that but we still did it eventually. But our indictment representing was adding fuel to the fire because a lot of people out there who thought we were being too radical by having these walkouts. Then we got busted and they learned about -- that’s unjust because we were not -- we were not doing anything revolutionary or communist-inspired like the FBI said. So people got angry and became quite supportive so the movement was built all over the Southwest. A year later in ’69, in Denver, Colorado, there were walkouts. In 1970 in South Texas, Crystal City, Texas, walkouts. So walkout became the means to generate the movement. [00:30:00] I mean, the people asked because that was the big issue of education that everybody could relate to, you know what I’m saying? That we just want to a better school for -- better schools for our kids. You know, we deserve that. We deserve that, all of our generations, my father’s generation, World War II, we fought in wars, we fought in wars for this country, and we still came back and we’re still not first-class citizens. “Ya basta,” we said. We got to do something different. So that’s what happened. That’s what made me a revolutionary for life, really. JJ: And then your father was born in Mexico. You were born here. And now, you’re 16 �a Chicano and he’s a Mexicano. But when you describe it, it’s really the same people. Some people are kind of confused about that. CMJ: Yeah, yeah. Right. JJ: So how -- when did that begin for you to feel that you were separate or (inaudible)? CMJ: Yeah. Yes and no, yes and no. What happened was, [00:31:00] okay, the question is what happened after we proclaimed ourselves Chicano? How did our parents who were Mexicans relate to that? Well, they couldn’t relate to that. We would have arguments with our families. And I was told, “Well, you’re Mexican, man. You’re not Chicano. What is Chicano, anyway?” So I tried to explain it to them and basically what we said to them was and what I said to my parents was being Chicano is being proud of our Mexican heritage. That’s what it means. The only difference is that because we were not born in Mexico, we wanted to make clear that even though we were not born in Mexico, that being Chicano meant that we were proud of our Mexican ancestors. And specifically, our Indigenous ancestors. We wanted to reconnect and that was a way we wanted to reconnect. We no longer wanted to be Mexican American, hyphenated Americans. At that time, it was hyphenated. I explain that in my book. We wanted to be just [00:32:00] Chicano or Chicana in case of women. So -- but there was a time when there was no understanding but eventually, they caught on eventually. Okay, now we understand. But initially, it was no -- it was kind of a problem. (laughs) But eventually, it was cleared up. But even it was hard to do that. So anyway, after the out on bail -- we’re out on bail, see? And it took two 17 �years in the courts. There’s a book entitled Racial Injustice and that deals with our case. It was written by a law professor at the law school. Racial Injustice. JJ: But I mean, who wrote the book? CMJ: I’m trying to remember -- I can’t remember the guy’s name right now. It’s in here. JJ: (inaudible) Racial Injustice. CMJ: Racial Injustice, yeah. [00:33:00] And so that documents our whole case. What happened, what we went through in terms of the indictments for conspiracy and all that. JJ: Can you give us a little (inaudible). CMJ: What was that? JJ: A little bit of what took place with the kids. CMJ: A little bit of what took place when we were indicted? JJ: Yeah, it’s in the book but if you can give us an idea of what -- CMJ: What happened was in other words, it begun -- the court proceedings started so preliminary to trial. And our lawyers collectively made us little legal strategies to prevent us from going to trial right away instead to try to get to the supreme court. The state supreme court, not the national supreme court. So they put all kinds of legal maneuvers. So eventually, it got to the state appellate court which is the one below the supreme court and it took two years for that to happen. And so when that happened, then basically, we were found [00:34:00] innocent by virtue of the First Amendment to the US Constitution freedom of speech. So like I always tell people, I guess the FBI, J. Edgar Hoover, didn’t realize that Mexicans were also covered by the First Amendment. So that’s what happened. 18 �But in those two years that we’re talking about our legal case going on forward, there was also a lot of other stuff going on. We organized -- well, actually, the party -JJ: Can you explain how that came about? CMJ: Okay, so then in the 1969 Denver conference -JJ: You said we. Who were the players? CMJ: The players are the Crusade for Justice led by Corky Gonzales, United Mexican American Students that I was a part of, MAYO, Mexican American Youth Organization from Texas, were the main players here. Brown Berets from -became the main players. Brown Berets became main players during the walkouts because they were part of the organizing [00:35:00] effort. It was basically the organization that we decided in the walkouts that would be our -- the security. There would be -- in the case the cops attacked us, the -- we needed the Brown Berets to be there to defend the kids from getting hurt by the cops. And they said, oh. So the Brown Berets became in the image of the public one of the most militant groups at that time. So that ’69 conference, they were also a part of that. They were key players, as well. JJ: Who were the leaders at the time of the Brown Berets? CMJ: David Sanchez at the time was the Prime Minister of Brown at that time. Now, by that time, I was already teaching. I started teaching at night. After I got out of prison on bail, I started teaching (laughs). I was a first-year graduate student and we didn’t have -- at that time, we didn’t have any Mexican Americans, not that many Mexican American scholars. There were only five in the social sciences, 19 �for example. And they [00:36:00] were older guys and they didn’t know anything about Chicanos. They didn’t want to be part of our Chicano studies plans. So we had to, out of our own ranks of students, we had to come up with a faculty so I was one of those guys. Since I had been a leader at UMAS, I was asked to be the guy to build the Department of Chicano Studies, the first one in the nation. So this is happening in two years. JJ: You were asked to build the first one in the nation, the Department of Chicano Studies? CMJ: Yeah, right. JJ: So that was the first version (inaudible). CMJ: Yeah, yeah. JJ: This was in -- CMJ: At Cal State Los Angeles in 1968. JJ: But you formed it, you made it. CMJ: Yeah. JJ: And then others followed after that or...? CMJ: Yeah, after that, there were others that came up. They followed. By 1969, there were three things -JJ: Who asked you? Who asked you? CMJ: UMAS. JJ: UMAS. CMJ: See, in other words, as students UMAS, we made demands to the administration that we wanted to have a Chicano Studies Department, okay? And Black 20 �students did the same thing. [00:37:00] So it was a Black/Brown kind of unity thing going on and so we gave them these demands. And so the administration, “Okay, okay, we’ll do it, we’ll do it.” Because we had -- it was right after the walkouts. There was a lot of mass movement going on out there so they didn’t want to say no (laughs) for obvious reasons. So we got the department but then with no faculty. So in order to staff the department, you need faculty. So I was picked, two of us were picked, to be the first “teachers” or faculty in the department part-time. We were full-time grad students and part-time faculty (laughs) because we didn’t have our own faculty. So the first thing I did as “department chair” was to recruit -- try to find throughout the country Mexican American scholars that had PhDs. So it was kind of hard to find. But anyway, so to go on, this is all happening in a two-year period, from ’68 to ’70, right? (laughs) All this stuff going on. Sixty-nine, the following year, the Denver [00:38:00] conference and then at the Denver conference, Plan de Aztlán was produced. JJ: What was that? CMJ: Plan de Aztlán was a manifesto. JJ: And who produced that? CMJ: Well, it came out of that conference. It came out of the Crusade for Justice Conference. And so that manifesto called for x number of things that we in the Chicano Movement are committing ourselves to finding this revolutionary struggle to create not only better schools but our own schools, our own political institutions, our own economic institutions, et cetera. So the political institution 21 �thing, we thought about -- well, at that time, we didn’t think about a party, per se. But after the Plan de Aztlán was put out, then we started talking about, “Well, you know what? We can’t do all of these things we’re demanding or calling for. Let’s take one at a time. Let’s take the more important one.” We need -- we were at that time in history, we were not representing a political process. [00:39:00] We were all underrepresented. We didn’t have our own elected officials and that kind of thing so we decided to create our own political party. So we called it La Raza Unida party. JJ: Before we go onto La Raza Unida party, can you describe -- because this is where the Young Lords came to Denver for the first time. So can you describe how that conference was organized and what took place during those days? CMJ: Yeah. The conference was organized basically by the Crusade for Justice, okay? And the Crusade for Justice under the leadership of Corky Gonzales were the folks that put it in play. They’re the ones that kind of -- the logistics and stuff like that. And then UMAS, the Brown -JJ: And why did they (inaudible)? CMJ: Because they had the facilities. It was the only -- the Crusade for Justice was the first civil rights organization to be created in the US. Okay? JJ: Of Chicanos. CMJ: Of Chicanos. That was in 19- -- [00:40:00] I think in 1965, Corky Gonzales founded it. So they had funds and they had their own building, okay? So they the ones that says, “Okay, look. We got this building, we got these funds, let’s have it here in Denver. We’d be happy to host it.” You know what I mean? So 22 �that’s how it came about. And so then, the word started putting out all over the place and the Young Lords were invited. We wanted to have a Latino unity thing, as well, to start moving forward to come up with this plan of action that will result -- not only with the building of the Chicano Movement but also with establishing an alliance with other Latino organizations like the Young Lords. So the Young Lords attended and were represented. And so from that moment on, we were connected in terms of political actions that were there. So whatever the Young Lords did in Chicago and New York, eventually, we were in solidarity with. [00:41:00] We were publicly -- were publicly supported and vice-a versa. Whatever we did over here in the Southwest, the Young Lords would also support it. And eventually, the Black Panthers and other militant people of color organizations. That was the thing that we wanted to build. But in the meantime, the main thing is to build in our own backyard and get our own folks involved in organizing. So the party was the way that we thought at that time we should do it. So La Raza Unida party was in a way a culmination of the Chicano Movement. So we went from con- -- we went from the walkouts to other walkouts to the conferences at Plan de Aztlán, and also to another conference in Santa Barbara after the Plan de Aztlán that I was also a part of called Plan de Santa Bárbara where we put together a manifesto demanding access to higher education for Chicano kids. [00:42:00] And to open up the doors to these institutions that historically had been closed to us. So this is where I decided that my future work was going to be to build Chicano studies in the university which I’ve devoted my life to doing so far. And so when we were “released” from being 23 �indicted and all that, then that’s what happened. So okay, so here I am. I got my PhD, I got my -- I was out on bail and got my (laughs) PhD when I was out on bail. And so then I became one of the handful of PhDs in the country so I -JJ: One of the what? CMJ: One of -- a handful of PhDs that we had. One of the first ones to get a PhD and therefore, I was able to do the work that I’ve been doing. JJ: Now, the -- so it started in Los Angeles, the Chicano Studies Department. CMJ: Right. JJ: Now, did you move to other states or cities? CMJ: Yeah. So there were -JJ: Were there funds [00:43:00] connected to do that or...? CMJ: Yeah, well, basically for the most part, it was California, Chicano studies. California was the first place where Chicano studies grew pretty fast. And then in Colorado, it started in Colorado, and then New Mexico and then Texas. But the Plan de Aztlán -JJ: Because I think after then is when we have the Puerto Rican Studies. CMJ: Yeah, right, exactly. JJ: So it was -- I think it’s right around the same time. CMJ: Exactly. So that was -JJ: It was kind of born. CMJ: Right on. So there was also this interaction going on with the Puerto Rican students, Puerto Rican student groups. So yeah, eventually, it became a nationwide thing so it’s still going on. It’s not as radical as it was when we started 24 �it. Because as I write about in my book, there were -JJ: Why has it changed? Why do you think it’s changed? CMJ: The change happened because it -- becoming part of the university [00:44:00] -see, our plan, my vision -- I keep talking about myself. My vision was I wanted to develop a paradigm that was in opposition to the dominant paradigm, you know what I mean? The dominant theories, the dominant methodologies, the dominant history. I wanted to play a role in developing within the university our own paradigm that dealt -- that was com- -- that competed against the other one. We wanted to decolonize the study of our people. In the context that we took it in our own hands, we’re going to write the authentic, the true history. And not the racist history that was being done at that time. Okay? So that’s what we did. And so then, but it differed in terms of degrees of political involvement. It wasn’t -across [00:45:00] the Southwest wasn’t exactly the same. There were differences here and there in terms of how they defined Chicano studies. But for the most part, there was common ground at that time. But now, even now in the 21st century, things have changed completely. And those who have become professors were not products of the Chicano Movement or the Boricua Movement like we were. They were products of a system. We didn’t have enough faculty to take over a whole university, (laughs) right? So consequently, people that are now teaching are more interested in career as opposed to community engagement, for example, community involvement. JJ: Career for themselves? CMJ: Yeah. 25 �JJ: Or for -- not for the student. CMJ: No, for themselves, yeah. There is a careerist kind of process that goes on in higher education. In other words, people are concerned about becoming experts and all that and they’re not concerned about what we were, my [00:46:00] generation, is concerned about is -JJ: What were we concerned about as this -- CMJ: What we were concerned then was to become organic intellectuals. What I mean by organic intellectuals is that organically connected to our communities. In other words, where we saw our research being the kind of research needed by our communities to empower our communities. You see what I mean? As opposed to what’s happened now for the most part is doing the research to publish books about our experience which is okay. JJ: So what is -- what -- that’s a good point. So the research is the research to empower the community. Can you kind of define that a little bit? CMJ: Yeah. Okay. What I mean by that is okay, research, for example, the issues that our communities face. Take one that is happening -- continues to happen today. Police harassment, you know? [00:47:00] How the system of injustice -- in other words, redefine the system of justice as a system of injustice. And begin to understand that what’s going on in terms of police community relations has not been good for our communities. So what they’re really finding in terms of community control of the police or how can we empower our communities to take on the police in a way that sort of redefines the relationship between cop and street youth. But it continues to be the case that we were not able to succeed in 26 �that way. How are you going to produce cops that are going to be sympathetic to a community when you have an institution of the police that’s a military institution, really? It’s a militarized institution. So that means you got to take on the whole societal [00:48:00] thing so make a revolution out of that. So that’s what we wanted to do but it’s easier said than done. Because those of us doing the kind of research like that could not get our books published, for one, at that time. My book, for example, was rejected by every single publisher. I had to go to England to get it published. Verso Press is a left wing publisher in London. So this is where this was published because it was too radical, it was too -JJ: What was that book, the book again or...? CMJ: My book? Youth, Identity, Power. JJ: Youth, Identity -- hold on a second. Okay, Youth, Identity, Power: The Chicano Movement? CMJ: Right. JJ: Okay. CMJ: So I was told, for example, by publishers this is not something that a political scientists writes because my PhD is in political science. So it’s not something that a political scientist writes. [00:49:00] And so it’s not -JJ: Your teaching is in political science. CMJ: Yeah -- no, no, Chicano studies. JJ: Chicano studies. CMJ: Yeah, right. I never taught in the political science Department. I didn’t want to. I wanted to create something new. Something that would be corresponding to 27 �what the needs of the community were. JJ: And today, the professors are lapse of that understanding. CMJ: Yeah, so today, we have people in the Political Science Department -JJ: (inaudible) they were putting in every teacher they got. (laughter) CMJ: Yeah, right. JJ: So the professors today are not engaged in the way that -- CMJ: Yeah, they have different -- they’re more theoretical now, for one. To be “respected” as a scholar nowadays, people think they have to be theoretical. And I don’t have anything against revolutionary theory but (laughter) or other theories but I don’t have any sympathy for it. But the point that I’m getting at is that it’s the nature of the institution to perpetuate the status quo. [00:50:00] Ando so there is very little room allowed for a revolutionary scholar to publish her work or his work as readily as others. There’s more opportunity now because not only do we have left wing presses. At that time when I got my book, it was -- Verso Press was it. And now they got different -- there’s other -- plus we have our own publishing houses now, too, Chicano. Arte Publico is one and I think there’s another one. I can’t remember off-hand. So now, we’re able to get more books published because -- but in those days, it was not possible. So basically, the important thing is that the name of the game has changed. The society has gotten more conservative, reactionary, and consequently, it’s been difficult to have a left perspective or a radical perspective pronounced or be visible as much as it was back in the ’60s. [00:51:00] And this’ll be -- I guess that’s what’s going on. 28 �JJ: Now, you’re not teaching now. You said you’re retired, semi-retired? CMJ: I’m semi-retired. I’m still teach -JJ: Where do you teach at? CMJ: I teach part-time. JJ: Where? CMJ: At UC Berkeley. JJ: UC Berkely. CMJ: Where I’ve taught at before (laughs) so yeah. JJ: For how long? CMJ: Well, I started teaching at the University of California in 1970. So I’ve been teaching since 1970 for the University of California and Berkeley since 1976. So my first job was at UC Irvine from 1970 to 1976. Then I went to the University of California Berkeley in 1976. So I’ve been there ever since til now. JJ: Immigrant rights you’re saying is part of the (inaudible) we got right now so that’s all. CMJ: Well, there has been, and ever since the ’60s, a growing population [00:52:00] of workers without papers in our society, so-called “illegal aliens.” And as the society has moved to the right, there’s been more and more anti-immigrant, racist hysteria. Historically speaking, every time there’s an economic crisis in the society, immigrants are scapegoated. They are -- the right wing, even the liberals, they say, “These illegal aliens are taking away jobs from American workers, are putting American workers out of work.” Which explains the crises, right? (laughs) Which is not true. It’s never been true. But that’s the stereotypic 29 �racist explanation for it. So it’s gotten worse and worse and worse. Under the Bush administration -- no, I take it back. Under the Clinton administration, actually, liberal [00:53:00] Democrat, they militarized the border. Clinton militarized the border. They started -- I mean, when I was a kid going -- crossing the border from El Paso to Juarez, the Border Patrol didn’t wear guns. So now, the Border Patrol has become like a military group, like an army. And it’s been -under President Clinton, that border was militarized. They built a wall, making it difficult for people to cross, and so it’s been getting worse ever since. So now, there’s been over time different kinds of congressional efforts to reform immigration policy. And right now, we’re in the middle -- as a matter of fact, any day now, we’re supposed to find out what’s happening with the latest effort to reform immigration policy. [00:54:00] And I’ve done an analysis of that and I also include that in my last chapter. About the fact that what’s going on now is basically policy that is going to be in the interest of corporations and not in the interest of the working class. They’re going to make it difficult for a undocumented worker to get citizenship. That person is going to have to pay a fine of 2,000 dollars or more, has to go back to Mexico and wait x number of years before she or he can apply for citizenship or apply for a visa to come back to work legally. So to me, that’s not good policy. Plus also, under the Bush administration, they created the -- they reorganized the [00:55:00] immigration system. Now it’s called the Homeland Security -- Department of Homeland Security. And Homeland Security, the arm of enforcement, immigration enforcement, has been called ICE, the ICE agency. And it’s called -- it’s what -- 30 �what does it stand for? Immigration Customs Enforcement, ICE. And what I call that is a terrorist arm of the US government because every day, ICE terrorizes (coughs) families. JJ: Do you need water? CMJ: Yeah, yeah, (inaudible). (coughs) (break in audio) CMJ: So ICE, again, the -- means Immigration Enforcement Agency. Customs -Immigration Customs, ICE, customs agency. [00:56:00] These guys, when they go into somebody’s home, they got -- they’re all battle -- it’s sort of like a soldier. They look like soldiers going in with guns, bullet vests, helmets, you know? And here you got a family of undocumented -JJ: Right. They’re watching TV. CMJ: They’re watching TV, the mom’s cooking or whatever, the kids and these guys just break in. “Okay, you’re under arrest.” What the hell? Because you have no papers. So basically, what that means is that today is worse than ever in the history of this country in terms of how it deals with immigrants because what they’ve done is they have criminalized the undocumented immigrant as opposed to just dealing with that person in terms of, “Okay, well, you got to get papers and bla bla bla. We got to deport you. Sorry, but...” And now they go in there. And then, they get imprisoned. [00:57:00] They don’t get deported right away like they used to. Now they send them to private prisons that have become very, very profit-making institutions. So this is why I have rephrased what President Eisenhower said once. When he came -- when he start -- when he stepped 31 �down from the presidency, he warned the American people about the dangers of the military industrial complex. Remember that? It’s always quoted. It’s very, you know. What I say now is the danger comes from the corporate military prison complex, okay? Because I see this -- they’re interconnected more than ever. JJ: So they’re making a profit -- CMJ: They’re making a profit. JJ: (inaudible) was working as a pastor and they said that they were deporting some people and they -- but then they waited to collect [00:58:00] the money first. CMJ: No, no, see, they -JJ: For a traffic fine, they put them in court. CMJ: Yeah, right. JJ: Maybe I’m misunderstanding. CMJ: No, no, no. The example of profit-making, what I mean by profit-making is instead of going to a jail, a regular jail, okay? Where people go who get arrested and then they call their lawyer and all that. Instead of doing that, what they’ve set up private -- different private systems, I mean private prisons that are like fenced in and everything else. It’s not a jail, per se, but it’s kind of like fenced in and everything. JJ: Concentration. CMJ: Concentration camp. That’s what it looks like when you see one of those. So they send people there to wait for how long, sometimes days and weeks before they get processed for deportation. [00:59:00] What that means is that this 32 �private prison is charging the government x number of millions of dollars to house people that are being -- they call it detained, detained. Not imprisoned, but they’re being detained for processing. You follow me? But it’s the same. But the consequence is the same. It’s a terrifying experience for families, you know what I mean? And -JJ: The business is making money for the government. CMJ: Exactly. That’s what I mean by profit-making so it’s very lucrative now. Okay, so that’s what’s happening now. So the point is that the immigrant rights movement is comprised of organization like the one I’m part of that are organizing to put pressure on the government for a human rights comprehensive immigration reform. Human rights meaning that we demand immediate legalization of [01:00:00] undocumented workers. They should have a right to work, period. And yeah, they -- some of them become citizens if there’s a path for citizenship. But they shouldn’t be penalized by having to pay thousands of dollars and going back to Mexico before they can become citizens. And also more importantly, that the militarization of the border stop. That we want to see the border become like it used to be. We don’t want to see any militarized things going on there like weaponry. And now, President Obama has sent in drones -- now they’re sending in drones, too, that can kill anybody they want to kill over there in the border. They determine terrorists that can -- to guard against terrorism. So all of this is going on and so the movement [01:01:00] is trying to put a stop to that, as well. So basically, we want to say -- we’re saying as an immigrant mass movement, we want to say, “Look, these people are human beings. They deserve the right 33 �to work if, in fact, there is work for them that Americans don’t want.” American workers don’t want to work in the places where they’re being hired. This is why they are in demand by those businesses that can’t hire American workers because they need cheap labor. So basically, that’s what’s going on right now. But it’s a long uphill fight because President Obama has not been a friend of Latinos in the context of pushing for human rights and immigration reform. Which is a shame because as you know, if it were not for the Latino vote, he never would’ve been elected President. I mean, Obama had the Black vote, but he needed the Latino vote [01:02:00] to get elected and reelected. And so he’s gotten that on the promises that he’s made that he would be pushing a reform of immigration policy that was going to be human rights-based, but he has not kept his promise. JJ: So suddenly, human rights-based demands or issues are -- it has to do -- it has to do with the border, demilitarizing it? CMJ: Demilitarize the border, right. And de-terrorize -JJ: De-terrorize the border, de-terrorize the border. CMJ: Yeah, right. (laughs) No more terrorism. We don’t want any -- we don’t want ICE to operate anymore. We want ICE to come in, yeah. JJ: So it has to do with ICE. CMJ: Yeah, yeah, we don’t want -JJ: And it has to do with these private corporations. CMJ: Right. Get rid of those private prisons, right. JJ: What other issues related to that, ICE? 34 �CMJ: And then the right to stay here and work without having to be criminalized. No more criminalization of the workers. JJ: There’s clearly a clash between what [01:03:00] the rest of the American electorate wants. CMJ: Well, yes and no. I think actually -JJ: Or at least what they’re saying that they want. CMJ: Yeah, it’s a clash with the right wing Tea Party people, what they want. And as opposed to the American people because there’s been polls made recently where it comes out that the majority of Americans now are sympathetic to immigrants more now. So the majority, I think the majority now are saying yeah, they’re -- they should have the right to work and not getting -- not get criminalized. Yeah. JJ: Any final thoughts? CMJ: Yeah. Well, final thoughts is as I get older and I’ve learned two things. The first one is that life is struggle and struggle is life. [01:04:00] You never get to a point in time in your life when you say, “Oh my God, we’ve got it made. We’ve succeeded in everything that we’ve tried to undertake.” But I also learned that victory is in the struggle. That as long as we’re fighting the good fight, fighting for human rights, fighting for an authentic, multi-racial democracy, we’re winning. Because the time’s coming where we’re going to be the majority in this country, people of color. And I think it can happen. So it might not happen in my lifetime. I won’t be around to see it. My children should be able to see it, my grandchildren will see it. The kinds of seeds that those of us from the Young 35 �Lords party and Chicano Movement, (inaudible) party envision. Our vision will come to realization eventually. It’s going to happen. I’m convinced of that. And I’m going to keep on fighting until I die. JJ: [01:05:00] Thank you very much. END OF VIDEO FILE 36 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/510939e3483735a79fe624a7c46e8b7b.mp4 8e912c03802f5a5b7424147fa72e1d9c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Carlos Munoz vídeo entrevista y biografía Descripción Spanish language Description entry La historia oral de Carlos Munoz, entrevistado por Jose 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez el 5/9/2013 acerca de los Young Lords en Lincoln Park. Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Mexicano-Americanos--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Mexico-Americanos--Illinois--Chicago--Condiciones sociales Relaciones raciales Conflicto social Identitad cultural Partido Pantera Negra. Illinois Capí­tulo Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Munoz_Carlos Title A name given to the resource Carlos Munoz video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Munoz, Carlos Description An account of the resource Oral history of Carlos Munoz, interviewed by Jose 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez, on 5/9/2013 about the Young Lords in Lincoln Park. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jimenez, Jose, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Mexican Americans--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Mexican Americans--Illinois--Chicago--Social conditions Race relations Social conflict Cultural identity Black Panther Party. Illinois Chapter Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2013-05-09 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/bf1d047d231cdbf9e80ba0b28b851025.mp4 689973b612dc8d0b00a7e8a35dc9db03 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e2086a255d8eb1dbc076a2d76a23fec0.pdf 1459afb74b5e5b14ce7f155dbdd7f2f2 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Vietnam War George Murphy Total Time: 54:45 Background  (00:18) George Murphy was born in Sandwich, Illinois, on March 6, 1948  Grew up in a small town 3 miles west of Sandwich  He went through high school there, and then went to junior college, then was drafted  (00:41) His mother was a homemaker, father worked in a factory in Sandwich o His father worked as a manufacturer in a company called New Idea  (1:03) In high school, Mr. Murphy played baseball, basketball, and track  Attended a community college about 25 minutes away  (1:24) Was drafted in June 1969 after graduating from college two weeks earlier  (2:10) He earned a science degree After Receiving Draft Notice  (2:19) Went to Ft. Leonard Wood, Missouri  Went to induction center in Chicago before going to Ft. Leonard Wood  (2:35) Got a physical in Chicago  Didn’t notice people trying to get out of going to Vietnam, but he heard stories  (3:04) From Chicago he was transported to Ft. Leonard Wood by plane, they first stopped in St. Louis and took a bus from there  (3:24) First impression of Ft. Leonard Wood: smelled of honeysuckle, which grew wild  (3:44) His first stop was the reception center, stayed there for 6 days o Received shots, fatigues, etc. o Took some classes o Assigned to company/battery  (4:17) Once he was out of reception, he didn’t know what his job would be Basic Training  (4:28) Described basic training as rough  Lasted from July to August, very hot weather, couldn’t take shirts or boots off  They got more used to it as the weeks went by  (5:08) Learned a variety of things at training �    o First aid, classes on hand to hand combat, how to use a bayonet, rifle, pistol, shooting, etc., military marching, military history Stood guard duty a lot (5:45) The training was to get them used to being a team as opposed to being an individual (6:00) Guessed that probably all of the guys in his company were draftees Basic training lasted 9 weeks AIT Training  (6:18) Orders for the next army phase during 9th week of basic training  Mr. Murphy was to go to Ft. Sill, Oklahoma, for artillery training  He went straight to Oklahoma with no leave on a bus  (6:59) When they got off the bus, they sat in bleachers and watched a gun crew show them how to shoot a 105mm howitzer o His group was told if they were good enough they could demonstrate for the next set of recruits  (7:40) He learned how to do everything with the howitzer o Trained on 105mm, 175mm, and 8-inch guns  This AIT lasted 9 weeks  (8:33) Most guys in his company (now called battery) were draftees  (9:00) The last week of AIT focused on preparing them for Vietnam, “jungle school” Vietnam  (9:39) When he got orders for Vietnam, he didn’t yet know what unit he would be in  Allowed 14 days for leave  Went to Illinois  After leave, went from O’Hare airport to Oakland, California  Spent 3-3 ½ days there  (10:28) got card to notify for shipment, told him when and where to report  Flew from Oakland to Anchorage, AK, stayed for a couple hours and then went to Kona Air Force Base in Japan o After refueling, went to Tan Son Nhut  (11:30) Didn’t know a lot about Vietnam at that point other than what he saw on the news, said he spent more time concentrating on college  (12:02) Stayed at Tan Son Nhut for 4 days, went to reception center and was assigned to Charlie battery, 7th Artillery, attached to the 1st Infantry Division o The unit was based in the Mekong Delta �                o After a few months he was transferred to the 101st division o Mr. Murphy was well received in his unit (12:42) Every battery he was in was always shorthanded o They were supposed to have 6 men per gun, but the most he ever had in a unit was 4 (13:16) In the unit he was assigned, he was assistant gunner Moved around a lot, within 3 ½ months they were in 3 fire bases, a truck was their means of transportation Fire bases were attacked sometimes with mortars and rockets at night, more for harassment, to keep them on their toes (14:12) 1st reaction to getting shot at was knowing he did his job, and after he realized what was going on he found it a bit nerve wracking (14:40) About 2 fire missions a day, they shot defensive targets at night, trail and stream crossings just in case the Viet Cong came (15:37) Establishing fire base: engineers went in with bulldozers, the unit set up guns, build bunkers and filled sandbags o Infantry came in at night to set up a perimeter around the firebase (16:26) Each gun section had an M-60 machine gun, which was manned by Mr. Murphy’s team, always 2 guys on an M-60 all night (16:50) Each gun section constructed a parapet (17:08) Took about a week to finish construction duties o He was told it took 10,000 sandbags (17:45) How the bunkers were constructed: trench was dug, PSP (perforated steel planking) on top, covered that with sandbags o Engineers bulldozed to make trenches (18:13) Mr. Murphy was in 3 firebases, and established 2 of them (18:17) Joined Minnesota company/battery (101st division) after the 1st division went home (19:10) Heard more about the 1st division before going to Vietnam, didn’t think anything of switching (19:57) C-130 brought Mr. Murphy to the 101st division o Flew from Saigon to Cam Ranh Bay o 6 or 7 from his battery went to 101st o 2 (including Mr. Murphy) from his gun section o (20:23) Having friends/acquaintances go along helped the switch o From Cam Ranh Bay to Camp Eagle (20:37) “Snake School” at Camp Eagle �        o Learned about the jungle and booby-traps o After that, the chopper took them to a fire base (21:18) 1st firebase he was at was called “Brick”, 20 miles away from Camp Eagle o Brick was small, just enough room for 6 guns, less than half the size of a football field o (21:45) The Howitzers they had weren’t the split trail ones, but M102’s o (22:08) Mr. Murphy said they were good guns, all they had to do was crank them, lighter compared to the heavy 105’s in the 1st division, used in WW2 o Airmobile guns were the M102 Howitzers o (23:24) Mr. Murphy was an ammo bearer when he first joined this gun division, moved up based on seniority o Once again, he was received well, his team was shorthanded (24:05) 101st division was very busy, firing a lot, fired at least 100 rounds a day on average In the 101st division, they had contact missions – if infantry was in trouble, they would help (25:08) Stayed in that location for about a week, then moved to fire base Rifle, which he helped build (25:41) Deployed to Rifle by helicopter o Had to march order Howitzer, which was a learning experience for Mr. Murphy o Howitzer was brought by Chinook, when previously it was done by truck o Howitzer was the first thing brought in the air, followed by a load of H.E., and then personal supplies o Beehive loads were carried on, as well as firecrackers (27:47) Stayed at Firebase Rifle for about 2-3 weeks, moved when infantry moved o Provided supporting fire for infantry, who would secure the firebase o (28:51) He did this for the rest of his tour o (29:00) Had to use beehive round once; intelligence said that the enemy would come up the gully and attack the firebase, so they pointed the Howitzer straight down into the gully and fired the beehive, which took care of it (30:00) Mr. Murphy was on 11 firebases total, moving every 2 weeks – month, but one time it was just within a few hours o Wherever the infantry was going, they went (30:38) Operation Ripcord was going on, they went to Gladiator fire support base, which was 6 or 7 clicks from Ripcord which was getting sporadic fights o His battery at Gladiator provided fire support for Ripcord o (31:20) In mid-July, they shot 3600 rounds in one fire mission �          o Each round was 35 lbs, ready to shoot from helicopter, all day long they ran back and forth and shooting them (32:24) Murphy and another man from his battery were sent to Ripcord by helicopter to check out positions for their battery's guns after the 105 battery on Ripcord had been destroyed. Going into Ripcord they landed on the south chopper pad, Mr. Murphy and his friend Frank ran to a shell hole during a fire fight, dodging bullets, etc (34:33) Constant rockets and mortars going off o Heard that an average of 1200 rounds a day hit the firebase (35:42) Once there, they wound up staying to help. They guarded the perimeter, helped with mortars, humped ammo (36:50) Mr. Murphy doesn’t remember because of everything going on at the time, but people told him it was constantly windy on Ripcord (37:35) Mr. Murphy was informed that he was getting off of Ripcord on the 22 nd, and he left on the 23rd (38:06) Leaving was “ten times worse than arriving,” he was amazed at how many rockets and mortars were going off as he left o Inside the TOC, he noticed a guy on a stretcher and told the others waiting for the chopper to take them out of Ripcord that they were bringing him whether he was dead or alive o (39:19) Remembers when they took off on the chopper it went straight down hill, there was so much shooting it made 30 seconds seem like almost an hour o Chopper looked like a pincushion from being shot so much, but it arrived safely at Camp Evans o (40:18) Remembers landing at Camp Evans and sitting down with his friends, “wow” at all that had happened (40:41) Pilot kissed the nose of the chopper, noticed all the fluids leaking from it and was amazed how it got them back to Camp Evans (41:14) It took awhile to get back to B Battery o (42:00) Mr. Murphy and some friends decided to have some beers before going back to Camp Eagle o Stayed at an inn overnight before hitchhiking back to Camp Eagle o Went to an art club before going back to Gladiator fire base, he remembers the commander being mad that they were a few days late because the whole time he wondered if they were dead or alive (43:46) They went back to their gun section, Gladiator was done, so they went to another firebase called Kathryn (44:24) Still very busy, this base was close to Ripcord, so lots of fire fights �      (44:53) Recalls one night at Kathryn that two were killed and 17 wounded in a sapper attack (45:18) “Puff the Magic Dragon” was used, a C-130 with mini guns o The day when this was used, one gun was lost from a rocket and the fire base was pretty badly damaged (46:05) Lathryn was the last major confrontation he had with the NVA (46:54) For food they had C rations (later mentions the same rations from WWII), sometimes once a week they would get hot meals sent in cans (47:50) He saw minimal drug use, but being on a fire base it would have been difficult to get near drugs o He guessed that probably in the rear there was some usage o Didn’t personally experience drugs, but sometimes he would smell pot walking past a bunker (49:18) Racial demographics of his battery were about 80% white, 15% black, and the rest Hispanic, there was no racial tension Going Home  (50:01) After 10 months he went to Australia for 6 days before returning to Vietnam and finishing his tour  (50:38) Out processed at Cam Ranh Bay, flew to Seattle, and processed out at Ft. Lewis  (51:55) Mr. Murphy remembers how happy and excited everyone was on the plane when the captain announced that they cleared Vietnamese airspace  (52:30) Ate a steak dinner and chocolate milk at Ft. Lewis, got back home on Christmas, this was a two day process  (53:27) When he got home, he was very tired. He mentions that he got to see his girlfriend at the time, parents and sisters. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context MurphyG1269V Title A name given to the resource Murphy, George (Interview outline and video), 2011 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Murphy, George Description An account of the resource George Murphy was born and grew up in a small town in Illinois. After finishing high school and junior college, he was drafted into the Army in 1969. He did his basic training at Ft. Leonard Wood, and was then sent for artillery training to Fort Sill, Oklahoma. Here he trained as a gunner, and was then sent to Vietnam. He joined a battery of the 7th Artillery which was attached to the 1st Infantry Division in the Mekong Delta, and served with them until the unit rotated home three months later. He and several other men from his battery were reassigned to the 101st Airborne Division at Camp Evans, and he served the rest of his tour with them. He continued to work as a gunner, and his battery regularly moved from one firebase to another. They provided fire support for Firebase Ripcord when it was under siege in July, and Murphy was sent to Ripcord to inspect artillery positions there when it was thought that his battery would move there. Instead, the base was abandoned, and he went back to his regular duties. Later on, he was stationed at Firebase Kathryn when it was attacked by sappers. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource McGregor, Michael (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings United States. Army Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-10-08 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2d544a7fd0ddf957866f0446a25d1fe7.m4v 23b18c4f1ea4d48513df038f1b93132c https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/40417b022d62d0d9b447e5454424c994.pdf e0a7214cc7ea0037d07d179e1c1dc2ca PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Name of War: Vietnam War Interviewee’s Name: Thomas Murphy Length of interview (00:59:00) (00:11) Pre-Enlistment Went to school at Rockford High School. (00:22) Volunteered for the draft after graduation in 1967. (00:35) Two months later, Thomas was in the army. (01:04) Grew up outside of Rockford with his brother and two sisters. (01:12) Never told his parents that he had volunteered for the draft. His parents found out three or five days after he had left for Fort Knox, KY. (01:20) Wanted to serve because it was his patriotic duty and because he had friends who were already serving in Vietnam. (01:50) (02:22) Training in Fort Knox, KY Learned about the discipline of military life and how to use various weapons. (02:22) Describes experiences with drill sergeants. (02:36) Traveled to Fort Lewis, WA after basic training for advanced infantry training and jungle warfare. (03:20) Received orders to go to Germany for about a month and a half. (04:07) Received orders to go to Vietnam. Was given a two week leave before leaving. (04:51) Mother wrote a letter to President Johnson saying that he was not physically capable to go to Vietnam. Recruiting officer arrived at his house near Rockford with orders from President Johnson insisting on a complete medical examination. (05:14) Had had no training with the M-16 rifle and had to learn on the job. (08:14) (08:21) Service in Vietnam Traveled by commercial jet and landed in Cam Ranh Bay. (08:24) Assigned to 1st Infantry Division, 2nd Battalion, Company D which received orders to base camp in Lai Khe. (09:08) Describes infantry operations in Vietnam. (09:37) Describes main functions and duties of the infantry and what that demanded from the individual. (13:10) Describes his experience in enemy tunnels as a ‘tunnel rat’. (19:06) Landed in Vietnam on April 1, 1968. (21:29) Entered the jungle in search of a village that the Vietcong and NVA were hiding in on May 1. Describes the operation and the mistakes they made. (21:47) Legs were paralyzed due to a gunshot wound while taking cover in a ravine. Didn’t realize until an hour later and passed out due to blood loss. (24:55) Describes his anger with God. Later accepted that God never abandoned him. (26:35) �Describes dealing with dangerous aspects of everyday life in Vietnam, such as malaria, leeches, red ants, dehydration. (28:36) Was wounded three times during his service. (32:35) Describes his experience during the Tet Offensive Drive. (33:25) Was awarded three Purple Heart Awards, a Combat Infantry Badge, and a Cross of Gallantry with Palm. (37:31) Describes booby traps that he encountered. (42:13) Shares several stories about things that happened while he was drunk with his friends. (43:20) (49:00) Life after Vietnam Had lost so much weight that his mother didn’t recognize him when he returned home. (49:00) Describes adjusting to the weather when their jet landed in Anchorage, AL. (49:23) Then landed in Fort Lewis, WA and had to walk in a parade in Tacoma, WA before returning home. Troops were received very badly by protesters. (50:03) Describes being treated very badly when he returned home. (50:28) Doesn’t suffer from physical effects from Agent Orange exposure, but doesn’t like being around bug spray. (54:53) Encourages people to be grateful for our troops. (57:38) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context MurphyT Title A name given to the resource Murphy, Thomas (Interview outline and video), 2009 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Murphy, Thomas Description An account of the resource Thomas Murphy is a Vietnam War veteran who volunteered for the draft after he graduated from Rockford High School in 1967. He served in Vietnam with the 1st Infantry Division, 2nd Battalion, Company D and was awarded three Purple Heart Awards, a Combat Infantry Badge, a Cross of Gallantry with Palm. In this interview, Thomas shares many stories about his experience with booby traps, dangerous living conditions and being a ‘tunnel rat.' Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Murphy, Sydney (Interviewer) Caledonia High School (Caledonia, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2009-05-26 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives