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              <name>Title</name>
              <description>A name given to the resource</description>
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                  <text>Flying Tigers Interviews and Films</text>
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                  <text>Oral history</text>
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                  <text>United States--History, Military</text>
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                  <text>China--History, Military</text>
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                  <text>Veterans</text>
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                  <text>China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group</text>
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                  <text>World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese</text>
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                  <text>Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. &#13;
&#13;
Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG.&#13;
&#13;
Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor.</text>
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                  <text>Boring, Frank</text>
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                  <text>&lt;a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540"&gt;Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)&lt;/a&gt;</text>
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              <name>Publisher</name>
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                  <text>Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections &amp; University Archives</text>
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                  <text>1938/1991</text>
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                  <text>Fei Hu Films&#13;
Christopher, Frank&#13;
Gasdick, Joseph&#13;
Misenheimer, Charles V.&#13;
P.Y. Shu</text>
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              <name>Rights</name>
              <description>Information about rights held in and over the resource</description>
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                <elementText elementTextId="128384">
                  <text>&lt;a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en"&gt;In Copyright&lt;/a&gt;</text>
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              <description>A language of the resource</description>
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                  <text>English; Chinese</text>
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                  <text>video; text</text>
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                  <text>1938-1945</text>
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                <text>Shu-140</text>
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                <text>P.Y. Shu</text>
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                <text>1947</text>
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            <description>A name given to the resource</description>
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                <text>Bangkok and Taiwan, 1947</text>
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              <elementText elementTextId="986555">
                <text>Film in black and white and color taken by Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu (no sound). The footage was recorded by Shu as he traveled with Col. Claire Chennault to aid the Chinese Air Force in training and establishing the American Volunteer Group (AVG). The footage documents Shu's travel and family as well as Chennault's and the AVG's activities during the Second Sino-Japanese War.&#13;
&#13;
Time-stamped scene list: 00:00 (black and white film) Views of houses and villages from a moving boat. Chennault and wife on boat with other passengers. River traffic. 01:15 Temples and city from boat. Passengers disembark. City views in Burma from moving car. Temples and sightseeing. 03:50 Snake handlers with cobras. 04:18 Chennault with his wife, Anna, and baby in a park. Chennault's children(?) playing on spinning toy. 04:54 Chennault, P.Y. Shu and the others sightseeing in a city.  Aerial shot of a city. More sight-seeing scenery. 05:18 Aerial view of a city. Chennault and other Westerners with a cargo plane, then boarding a bus. Sightseeing tour of ancient temples. 07:30 (black and white film) Ancient temple. 08:08 Baby jaguar on leash. 08:17 Swimming in a pool, playing tennis. Baby elephant. 09:27 Temple sightseeing. 11:22 (color film) Temple sightseeing, monks, giant statue of Buddha. City sights, monument. 12:20 Man with monkeys. Building with large tower. Dog. 13:20 P.Y. Shu's wife with dog and in a park. 14:20 Cabins, a model cabin and truck. Shu family. </text>
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                <text>Chennault, Claire Lee, 1893-1958</text>
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            <description>The topic of the resource</description>
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                <text>China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group</text>
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                <text>World War, 1939-1945</text>
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                <text>Chennault, Claire Lee, 1893-1958</text>
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            <description>A related resource from which the described resource is derived</description>
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              <elementText elementTextId="986560">
                <text>&lt;a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540"&gt;Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)&lt;/a&gt;</text>
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          <element elementId="47">
            <name>Rights</name>
            <description>Information about rights held in and over the resource</description>
            <elementTextContainer>
              <elementText elementTextId="986562">
                <text>In Copyright</text>
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                <text>video/mp25</text>
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                <text>World War II</text>
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              <elementText elementTextId="1037475">
                <text>Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives</text>
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                    <text>Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project
John Bantjes
(00:38:47)
(00:30) Background Information
•
•
•
•
•

John was born in Illinois and moved to Indiana when he was very young
John was born in 1929 and grew up during the depression
His father had been an accountant, but lost his job
Both his parents were Dutch immigrants and decided to move back with John’s
grandparents in the Netherlands during the depression
They moved to the central Netherlands and his father became an adjuster for an insurance
company

(2:30) War in the Netherlands
• John was 11 years old when the war broke out and it lasted for 5 years
• The Germans occupied the Netherlands; they were nice at first but became more mean as
the war progressed
• Over the years the food supply dwindled and the Netherlands seemed to be cut off from
the rest of the world
• Many people were starving to death and forced to work for the Germans
• John had dual citizenship and decided to go back to the US after the war
(5:55) Back in the US
• John moved to Byron Center, Michigan and was later drafted into the Army in January of
1951 during the Korean War
• John was inducted in Detroit and then went to Fort Sheridan in Chicago
• He later trained in Camp Carson, Colorado and became part of the South Dakota National
Guard
(8:45) Operation Totem Pole
• John was part of a Regimental Combat Team of about 5,000 men that were sent to
Anchorage, Alaska for Operation Totem Pole
• Their goal was to train to defend Alaska and the rest of the country in the face of a
Russian attack
• They continued to train in Alaska from January to July
• They were living near an old construction site and simulating tactical warfare
(14:20) Working in Alaska

�•
•
•
•

John was working as a rifleman in a rifle squad in Alaska for 18 months
They mostly trained, got lots of exercise, and worked on guard duty
There were always alerts going off at odd times and the men would have to guard the
perimeter around the Army base
John often had time off to go fishing and weekends off to travel around Alaska

(19:30) Alaskan Weather
• The men camped in 5-man tents with gas stoves; it was not that cold inside
• At night it would get to negative 40 degrees and was about 20 degrees during the day
• Sometimes John would sleep outside in a very large, down-filled, arctic sleeping bag
• There were some moose in Alaska that were very aggressive that would attack their jeeps
• They were allowed about one weekend off a month to go around Alaska, but the prices in
the small towns were very high
(27:10) Discharged
• John was in the Army for 23 months and back home just in time for Christmas
• They hit a typhoon in the ship on the way home from Alaska and were stuck for a while
• There was an outbreak of chicken pox on the shit because some of the men had brought
their families with them to Alaska
• John was discharged at Fort Custer in Battle Creek, Michigan

�</text>
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                  <text>Grand Valley State University. History Department</text>
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                  <text>The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.</text>
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                  <text>1914-</text>
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                  <text>Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American</text>
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                  <text>United States. Navy</text>
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                  <text>Veterans</text>
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                  <text>Video recordings</text>
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                  <text>Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American</text>
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              <name>Contributor</name>
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              <elementTextContainer>
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                  <text>Smither, James&#13;
Boring, Frank</text>
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                  <text>Veterans History Project (U.S.)</text>
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                  <text>RHC-27</text>
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              <description>A language of the resource</description>
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                  <text>eng</text>
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                <elementText elementTextId="565790">
                  <text>&lt;a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455"&gt;Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)&lt;/a&gt;</text>
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                <text>Bantjes, John</text>
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                    <text>Baptism: A Sign of Belonging
Text: Genesis 17:7, 13; Acts 2:39
Richard A. Rhem
Christ Community Church
Spring Lake, Michigan
Pentecost IV, June 19, 1994
Transcription of the spoken sermon

"I will establish my covenant between me and you, and your offspring after you
throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant to be God to you and to your
offspring after you... So shall my covenant be in your flesh an everlasting
covenant.” Genesis 17:7,13
"For the promise is for you, for your children, and for all who are far away..." Acts
2:39

	&#13;  
In his best selling book, Care of the Soul, Thomas Moore deals with the spiritual
emptiness of contemporary society. Thomas Moore writes not fluff. It’s a heavy
book, and he has expressed his amazement that it found its way on to the New
York Times hard cover Best Seller List, and now continues some 21 weeks on the
paperback Best Seller List. Obviously, Thomas Moore has touched a nerve in our
contemporary human experience. He says what all of us know down deep, that
we have no depths, that we have neglected our soul, that depth-dimension of the
human person.
He gives us two images of our contemporary life. The first is fast food: fast food
rather than the ritual of dining. The gathering of the family around the table to
share a meal is an experience becoming more and more rare in our contemporary
experience. And the second image: rather than reflective commentary and news
analysis, journalism becomes sound bites. Fast food and sound bites. We live at
an accelerating pace. Technological breakthroughs create new horizons for
human experience. We are whirling on a planet spinning out of control and our
lives show it.
Perhaps Thomas Moore is right that what is missing is the very kind of thing we
are engaged in here—a regular appointment. We gather in this sacred space with
all of its associations of experiences past: its furniture, its whole setting, the
environment, the feel of this moment. For so many of our contemporaries there is
no longer a regular appointment like this. And even for us, increasingly it
becomes an option when Sunday morning dawns. In my earlier ministry, I did
© Grand Valley State University

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�Baptism: A Sign of Belonging

Richard A. Rhem

Page 2	&#13;  

everything I could get you to come to church, not only on Sunday morning, but,
God forbid, on Sunday evening too. The whole day shot to heaven. (Laughter) I’m
afraid I probably did so because of certain ego needs. I was fooling myself saying
that what I really wanted was God's people to hear God's word when I really
wanted God's people to hear God's word through me. And, beyond that, if I had
to be there, by George, they ought to be there too. So there was, in a previous era,
some imposition of guilt, and a bit of manipulation.
But, I am older now, as must be self-evident, and I wouldn't lay that on you.
That's a heavy obligation. Now I would say to you, "You need to be here." You
need to be here, not just occasionally, once in a while, willy-nilly. You need to be
here because your soul needs what happens here beyond whether or not the
sermon was scintillating, or suffocating. You need to be here to open your soul to
something beyond the ordinary and the humdrum, the rapidity of the days that
fly by. You need to be here because the soul needs to be nourished, and it is at
appointments like this where there are certain ritual actions and there are certain
words and formulas, that touch us, not necessarily rationally, intellectually, but
down in our depths.
We need to be here on a week like this, when Peter relays all those who have just
been in the hospital, the birth and death of an infant, the birth and complications
of another infant, the death of an aged saint, the celebration of marriage, the
celebration of baptisms – all of these things in the mix of human experience. In a
week like this, dear God, don't we know that we don't have stamina enough to
make it on our own without that connection to a world beyond that which is time
and space and manageable?
Maybe a symbol of our contemporary society is O. J. Simpson. The whole nation
was glued to their television sets in that bizarre Friday night tale as it unraveled,
watching with apprehension one of the highest profile persons in the nation, with
friends saying, "Oh, I talked with him and he seemed himself." Yesterday in the
Detroit Free Press, was a column by Mitch Album. He pointed out that here's this
person whose face everyone recognizes, who has achieved larger than life status:
our hero, fantastic gifts, great accomplishments. Then, if the charge is true, in a
moment of passion he erupts in violence, which results in a murder, which shocks
the nation in its brutality. Yet as Mitch Album says, "Did you know him? Nobody
knows him. Nobody knows nobody." We live with the facade with which we
engage one another. But who knows the raging storm within? And O.J. Simpson
is not unique. He is a symptom. It is happening every day with lesser known folk,
so less is known about it. But the rage lies within people who do not know who
they are, or whose they are.
That's why a morning like this is so important. That's why what transpires at this
baptismal font is so important. For baptism is the Christian Church's sign of
belonging, belonging to that community of faith that stretches back into Israel's
history – that community which gathered around Abraham and Sarah, which

© Grand Valley State University

�Baptism: A Sign of Belonging

Richard A. Rhem

Page 3	&#13;  

became Israel, from which Jesus issued, the One who was crucified, risen,
ascended, and gave his Spirit. The Spirit of God breathed in the midst of that
people who were gathered around that story and who were marked with a new
sign, a sign of baptism. Water is the sign of the cross—a sign that one is a child of
God.
I have a friend, a colleague of mine in seminary who, in groups where one had to
introduce oneself, the groups we often squirm thinking about, would always say
his name and then he would add, "Child of God." Name, "Child of God." Who are
you? Dick Rhem, Child of God. Who are you? Your name, Child of God.
So we baptize. We bathe it in prayer because this ritual action which stretches
back across the centuries and puts us in touch with that whole community of faith
past is an action in which God is the actor. God is the agent and we simply are the
instruments, by which the gift of God's breath, God's enlivening breath, wind
Spirit, is received by the child. The most dramatic, most vivid example of grace in
the Church, is that passive receptive child receiving the sign, the mark of grace, of
eternal love, of covenant, binding one to the eternal God, a binding that will
never, never be broken. What happens? Who knows. But in obedience we
mediate the sign, believing that God is the actor.
We do it differently than ten years previous. I came into the ministry along with
the elders, understanding that baptism needed to be requested and sometimes
granted, and perhaps sometimes not granted if those who requested had not
proven their faithfulness. How wrong that is, you see, because baptism is not the
Church's gift to be given to those who merit it. Baptism is a sign that God gives to
a child on the basis of God's promise, "I will be your God and a God to your
children." We used to gather parents here and would say, "Do you ... will you ...
do you promise?" and then baptize the child. Then I heard in St. Pierre's
Cathedral, the home church of John Calvin, how it was reversed. The baptism
was performed and then the parents were given opportunity to answer such
questions. I knew immediately that was right. Baptism is God's gift; God is the
actor. It is pure grace and, in the light of that grace, one says, "Oh, yes I will, with
all my heart." Of course, in the light of all of that.
Maybe I can make it clear by a comparison. Sometimes comparisons help us to
lift up certain dimensions. No criticism of the Baptist Church. Thank God for all
good Baptists everywhere. But the Baptists also recognize and have increasingly
felt the need of some kind of ritual for infants, even though the hallmark of the
Baptist communion is that one must say that one believes and then be baptized
so that baptism is an adult affair. Now increasingly in Baptist churches there are
dedication services. Do you see the different nuance? Here God is the actor and
the parental response is response to God's initiating grace. In a dedicatory service
the focus is on the human person’s act of dedication. It is a different spin. It is a
different nuance. I prefer it this way—all of God. All of grace. Pure gift. That
which moves then in response of worship and adoration and following in the way

© Grand Valley State University

�Baptism: A Sign of Belonging

Richard A. Rhem

Page 4	&#13;  

of Jesus. Marked, belonging by God's choice. God's gift, so that when the bottom
falls out and the roof caves in and the foundations shake, and it seems that
darkness will overcome us, we can do as Martin Luther used to do in those
moments of deep temptation and despair. He would cry out, "I have been
baptized."
Baptism is not a sentimental ceremony for little infants in arms. It is a gift of God
that marks us throughout all of our days, so that come what may one is able to
say, "I have been marked," with a sign of love, by a God that shall never let me go.
Thank God.

© Grand Valley State University

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                    <text>Baptized, Claimed and Called
From the series: The Human Face of God
Scripture: Isaiah 41:8-10; Luke 3:1-9; 21-22
Richard A. Rhem
Christ Community Church
Spring Lake, Michigan
March 1, 1998
Transcription of the spoken sermon
You may remember that the Episcopal Bishop of Newark, New Jersey, reached
out to me when he read in The New York Times of my affirmation of God’s grace
as extending beyond the limits of the Christian church. John Shelby Spong then
invited Nancy and me to be guests in their home last May when the English
scholar, Karen Armstrong, lectured for the Newark Diocese. Bishop Spong has
published a number of books, tackling controversial subjects and pushing the
church toward a more open posture, endeavoring to translate the Christian
tradition into a new key. Recently I came across one of his earliest writings, just
republished, and found these few lines prefacing the first part of the study which
is entitled, This Hebrew Lord.
Christpower
Look at him!
Look not at his divinity,
but look, rather, at his freedom.
Look not at the exaggerated tales of his power,
but look, rather, at his infinite capacity
to give himself away.
Look not at the first-century mythology that surrounds him,
but look, rather at his courage to be,
his ability to live
the contagious quality of his love.
Stop your frantic search!
Be still and know that this is God:
this love,
this freedom,
this life,
this being;
and
When you are accepted,
accept yourself;
© Grand Valley State University

	&#13;  

�Baptized, Claimed, Called

Richard A. Rhem

Page 2	&#13;  

When you are forgiven,
forgive yourself;
When you are loved,
love yourself.
Grasp that Christ power
and
dare to be yourself!
John Shelby Spong, 1973
Bishop Spong has been out in front for a long time and I realize more and more
that I am indeed a "late bloomer." Coming back from Europe in 1971, I was
beginning to look at Jesus "from below" as we said at that time, meaning that
New Testament scholars were focusing on the human man from Nazareth, the
Jesus of history, in order to understand and interpret how the developing
Christian tradition came to its affirmation of Jesus as "fully God, fully human."
The Christian tradition, the Christian church, is the consequence of an historical
happening - the life of one Jesus of Nazareth. That he was a fully human being,
no one questioned. That he was more than that was essentially the consequence
of the sense of his ongoing presence with his followers after his crucifixion.
That he was one with God or that God was with him in some unique sense was
the growing conviction of those who constituted that early Jesus movement. The
process of development of the claim that Jesus was not only human, but also
God, was not a claim Jesus made; in fact, it was not confessed in creedal fashion
until the Council of Nicaea in 325 CE and the culminating claim "fully God, fully
human" stems from the Council of Chalcedon in 451 CE.
What I began to understand as I returned from my graduate study in Europe in
1971 was that the high claims of Jesus’ divinity had to be understood from his
historical life, a very human life. But it would be twenty years of reflection and
preaching before I would preach an Eastertide series in 1992, From Proclaimer
to the One Proclaimed. One sermon in that series was "How a Man Became God."
Over the years, however, I was sensing more and more that it was Jesus
understood in his humanity that was really compelling. In Lent 1984, I preached
a sermon entitled, "Jesus, You Are Really Something!"
I remember that sermon; I acknowledged that I was really more moved by
Dietrich Bonhoeffer than Jesus. I realized it was because Jesus was never really
understood in his humanness; he walked through darkness and suffered, but he
had a leg up on us - he was also God, wasn’t he? How could he really know my
"trouble?" It was then that I came to clarity: Jesus experienced what he
experienced as a human being. He lived as he lived and died as he died as a
human being. He had no card up his sleeve; it was his vision, his faithfulness that

© Grand Valley State University

�Baptized, Claimed, Called

Richard A. Rhem

Page 3	&#13;  

led him to crucifixion. He died the way he died because he lived the way he lived.
He was really something! And to follow that one - that was a challenge!
Well, I review that path my own pilgrimage has taken, a pilgrimage you have
made with me for however long you have been here, because I want you to know
that as we begin a new Lenten journey, we are wrestling again with this same
Jesus, his way, his way of being human and his way of living before the face of
God.
And, hear this - precisely as he lives a human life before the face of God, he
becomes the Human Face of God.
When I read Bishop Spong’s "Christpower," I knew this would be my Lenten task
- to see Jesus in all of his humanness in order to see in Jesus - in his face - the
God before Whom he lived and to Whom he pointed.
We will not look at his divinity. We will not focus on exaggerated tales of his
power. We will not reiterate the first and second and third, fourth and fifth
century mythology that was created to give expression to the Early Church’s faith.
No, we will, to the extent it is possible, look at Jesus in all his humanness in order
there to see God.
Could anyone so live and so die, could anyone live with such firm resolve,
following unwaveringly a vision, could anyone manifest such freedom and
constancy except he had a deep sense of being claimed and called?
That is the first aspect of Jesus that we will consider: Jesus knew with profound
conviction - God claimed him; God had called him.
How did he know?
How does anyone know?
One sees, that’s all. One knows. One cannot prove it, verify the claim, or prove the
call. One gives evidence of the call’s reality and the claim’s validity by one’s life,
by what one does with the conviction.
This is true not only of Jesus; all who have lived out a vision faithfully with
courage and conviction must believe they are under a mandate from beyond
themselves. Such a conviction can be misinterpreted, can be the source of
destructive fanaticism. Great violence has been perpetrated by persons believing
themselves to be called by God. That is an ever-present danger. Nonetheless,
nothing of great significance has ever been done in this world without a sense of
claim and call, a sense of responding to a compelling urgency not of one’s own
making.

© Grand Valley State University

�Baptized, Claimed, Called

Richard A. Rhem

Page 4	&#13;  

This was true of Israel. It comes to fine expression in the so-called Servant Songs
of Second Isaiah. The reading for this sermon from the Hebrew prophet
expresses the call and the assurance that the Calling One will be with the servant
to strengthen and uphold. That sense of being called has always marked Israel - a
people called by God to be light to the nations. It was that deeply rooted sense
that marked Jesus, as well, and when the Gospel writers, decades after Easter,
told the story of Jesus, they gave expression to his sense of being claimed and
called at the moment of his baptism at the hands of John the Baptist.
Last week there were ten of us from Christ Community at a seminar at Duke
University entitled, "Jesus in Context." The leading Jesus Seminar scholars, John
Dominic Crossan and Marcus Borg, were part of the panel of scholars along with
five others, two of whom were Jewish, who teach Christian origin and New
Testament interpretation. There was great diversity among the seven scholars,
but agreement on two points - Jesus’ baptism by John and his crucifixion under
Pontius Pilate.
That there was a significant spiritual renewal movement under John the Baptist
is undoubted. John preached repentance and baptism as a sign of renewal at
what he and most of his contemporaries believed was the end of the age, the
dawn of God’s fresh visitation of God’s people, Israel. Jesus was a part of that
scene; he, too, was baptized and most likely shared the sense of the imminent
movement of God to inaugurate God’s Kingdom.
Jesus’ baptism is recorded by Matthew, Mark and Luke. John does not mention
the baptism, but associates Jesus with John in the earliest phase of his ministry
in Judea. Thus, there is unanimity among the Evangelists that Jesus began his
ministry after joining the Baptist movement and himself being baptized. The
three Synoptic Gospels record the heavens opening, the Spirit as a dove
descending on Jesus, and a voice saying, "You are my beloved Son with whom I
am well pleased."
What really happened beyond the baptism itself, we cannot tell. Luke alone says
Jesus, following his baptism, was praying when he received the vision and heard
the voice. What is clear is that the tradition that gathered around Jesus in the
years following his death ascribed to this moment the consciousness of a divine
claim and call. From his baptism, Jesus inaugurates his ministry that lasted from
one to three years.
What did it mean - that sense of being claimed and called? To what would it lead?
What would be involved in yielding to the call?
I think none of that was clear to Jesus as he sensed himself under Divine
compulsion. This he knew: no longer was he his own; he was embarking upon a
path the end of which he could not foresee. Only this he knew: The Hand of God
was laid on him. There was something he must do.

© Grand Valley State University

�Baptized, Claimed, Called

Richard A. Rhem

Page 5	&#13;  

"Must." Yes, in the sense of inner necessity. Could he have resisted? Refused to
yield? Certainly. But not if he would be true to himself, for he had "seen"
something; he had a sense of something; to be himself, he must give himself to it
whatever it was, wherever it would lead.
That is where the struggle comes in - Will I be true to what I have "seen," what I
know deep down to be true, what the vision burned indelibly into my
consciousness, what the "Voice" declared in the depths of my soul, or will I falter
before calling in questioning the conventional wisdom held by the majority, the
inevitable misunderstanding of what I "see," the questioning of my motivation?
And who am I that God should claim me for some task, call me to do some special
work? What of my family? Will my parents "see"? Will my spouse agree? Will my
children suffer? Will I have to give up all plans for normalcy? The cost. It will cost
to say "Yes" to the claim, to heed the call. It was thus for Jesus.
In the 16th century, Luther said, "Here I stand; I can do none other."
In our own time, Dietrich Bonhoeffer said,
I shall have no right to participate in the reconstruction of Christian life in
Germany after the war if I do not share the trials of this time with my
people ... Christians in Germany will face the terrible alternative of either
willing the defeat of their nation in order that Christian civilization may
survive, or willing the victory of their nation and thereby destroying our
civilization. I know which of these alternatives I must choose; but I cannot
make this choice in security.
Whatever happened that day on the banks of the Jordan, Jesus left there
baptized, claimed and called. He embarked on a path which would lead him to
the gory anguish of Golgotha.
Could he have said "No"?
Again, yes, of course. But, he did not; he yielded to the call because he saw
something, knew something, and had the courage to act on it.
Our lives will likely be marked by far less drama. Indeed, we might well pray,
"Dear God, choose my neighbor." Yet, in the peculiarity of our own lives and in
our life together, the same process is going on all the time - in our conversations,
in the positions we take or fail to take.
That is the point of this Lenten pilgrimage - Looking to Jesus, recognizing the
very real human situation in which he encountered the claim and the call.
In subsequent weeks, watching as he lives into that commitment, perhaps we,
too, will sense God in our own lives, become sensitive to what it means to live

© Grand Valley State University

�Baptized, Claimed, Called

Richard A. Rhem

Page 6	&#13;  

before the face of God, and, perhaps in gazing on the face of the one who lived
before the face of God, we may glimpse on his face the God before Whose face he
lived, and died, for Jesus is the human face of God.
That would be to make a good Lent.

References:
John Shelby Spong. This Hebrew Lord: A Bishop’s Search for the Authentic
Jesus. HarperSanFrancisco, 1993.

© Grand Valley State University

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Throughout his photography career, he pursued both freelance commercial work as well as artistic work. His art photography is characterized by its classic black-and-white format, and features people, places and objects shot great attention and sensitivity. Gilbert's works are held in the permanent collections of the Art Institute of Chicago, the High Museum of Art in Atlanta, The Norton Simon Museum in Pasadena, and the Grand Valley State University Art Galleries, as well as in numerous private and institutional collections.&#13;
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Throughout his photography career, he pursued both freelance commercial work as well as artistic work. His art photography is characterized by its classic black-and-white format, and features people, places and objects shot great attention and sensitivity. Gilbert's works are held in the permanent collections of the Art Institute of Chicago, the High Museum of Art in Atlanta, The Norton Simon Museum in Pasadena, and the Grand Valley State University Art Galleries, as well as in numerous private and institutional collections.&#13;
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&#13;
Throughout his photography career, he pursued both freelance commercial work as well as artistic work. His art photography is characterized by its classic black-and-white format, and features people, places and objects shot great attention and sensitivity. Gilbert's works are held in the permanent collections of the Art Institute of Chicago, the High Museum of Art in Atlanta, The Norton Simon Museum in Pasadena, and the Grand Valley State University Art Galleries, as well as in numerous private and institutional collections.&#13;
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&#13;
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                    <text>Barbara Kiszonas- Interview by Tyler Smith
July 21, 2018
0:02

TS: All right. So this is Tyler Smith, and I’m here today with

0:11

BK: Barbara Kiszonas

0:13 TS: At the Saugatuck Douglas History Center in Douglas, MI, on July 21st, which is a
Saturday of 2018. This oral history is being collected as part of the Stories of Summer Project,
which is supported in part by a grant from the National Endowment of the Humanities Common
Heritage Program. Thank you for taking the time to talk with me today. I’m interested to learn
more about your family history and your experiences of summer in the Saugatuck Douglas area.
Can you please tell me your full name and spell it?
0:45 BK: My full name Barbara Kiszonas. Spelled, well Barbara you know, but Kiszonas. KI-S-Z-O-N-A-S.
0:54

TS: All right. Um. Do you use any accents when spelling your name?

0:59

BK: No.

1:01

TS: All right then. Can you spell Barbara really quick to just in case?

1:05

BK: All right. B-A-R-B-A-R-A [laugh]

1:08

TS: Standard Barbara spelling

1:10

BK: Standard

1:11 TS: Perfect. Um. So we’ll start off with some basic questions. So tell me about where
you grew up. Um. Yeah.
1:18 BK: Oh. All right. I grew up in Chicago on the north side, and lived there about, uh, until
I had my children, my two daughters. Um, and then we moved to New Jersey around, um, I
guess it was 1981.
1:38

TS: All right. What are some of your most vivid memories from your childhood?

1:43 BK: from my childhood? Oh my goodness. Um. Wow. Well, I grew up in a big family.
I’m the oldest of 8 children. So there was a lot of, always a lot of activity in our house. Uh, we
lived in a house on the north side of Chicago with a big yard. And um, we were pretty much our
own play group, although we did have other friends, obviously. But we did a lot of things in our,
in our big yard. Um, we had a big willow tree we like to climb. Um, we would play games, and
we would have parties there. Um, we even would like to, we would put on little fairs and shows
and sometimes the neighborhood kids would come. Um. So it was a lot of fun.

�2:24 TS: [laugh] That is excellent. Uh, so, if you could tell me a little bit more about your
family and family history, I guess particularly as would relate to this area. Who’s still in this
area? Who travels through here?
2:39 BK: mm hm. Um, well, my family I guess you could say is kind of immigrant family.
My, my father and myself actually were born in Ireland. And my mother is English, born in
London. And they emigrated to Canada, uh, when I was probably about 14 months old. And so
we lived in Canada for about 5 or 6 years. Um, and then my father had already left Canada
already to come down to the States to look for work. He was in construction. Um, and he first
went to New York and then he went to Chicago. And my mother and, at that time three children,
uh, eventually followed. And made our home in Chicago. So two of my brothers and sisters, uh,
one brother one sister were born in Canada as well, um. And we moved to Chicago, and that’s
when the reminder of the children were born. In Chicago.
3:41

TS: All right. And what was your father’s last name?

3:44

BK: Boyd. B-O-Y-D

3:46

TS: OK. What was your mother’s maiden name?

3:47

BK: My mother’s maiden name was Kronenburg (?)

3:50

TS: Ok. That is a pretty fascinating family history

3:53

BK: [laugh]

3:56

TS: All right. Um. [clear throat]

3:59 BK: And we went by train. I remember that. I was, um, probably 7 years old, and we
went by train from Canada. And I remember saying afterwards to my mother “I never knew how
long the night was until we rode on that train.” Because we didn’t really sleep very well, and you
know it was like it was still night outside. And yeah it was a long trip.
4:23

TS: Man. And how old were you when you came over from Ireland?

4:26

BK: About 14 months

4:27

TS: Ok. So you don’t remember that

4:29

BK: No. no.

4:30

TS: Did, how did your parents get over? Was it by boat then?

4:33

BK: By boat. Yes

4:34

TS: Ok. Wow

�4:36 BK: yeah. Yeah. Actually when I was 10 years old, um, our family took a trip back to
Ireland and England to visit relatives.
4:44

TS: Ok

4:45

BK: And that was the first time I’d ever been on a plane. It was Pan Am.

4:47

TS: All right.

4:48

BK: Yeah. It was great.

4:50

TS: That’s excellent. What, um, what county of Ireland is your father from?

4:54

BK: Antram

4:55

TS: Ok. Interesting.

4:58

BK: Oh, I guess. Yeah. Is that the county? Antram? I think it is. Is that the Province?

5:02

TS: Yeah. I have uh, a bare understanding of how it works over there

5:06

BK: Yeah. Northern Ireland

5:08

TS: ok.

5:09

BK: Yeah. Belfast actually

5:10 TS: Gotcha. Gotcha. Gotcha. Yeah. There, um, I don’t know if you’ve been up north in
Michigan, but I think there is an Antram county. There as well
5:18

BK: Yeah. I’ve seen some of the names. Yeah. Over there yeah.

5:25 TS: All right. Let’s see. Well you would qualify as a seasonal resident then. You spent
summers up here, correct?
5:35 BK: Uh, yeah, we spent summers. Like when I first went to camp I was still in grammar
school. And I don’t know if you want me to get into too much of that right now, but, um, came
for a couple of years and then what happened, um, when I was in high school. Some of my
brothers and sisters also came, but Mom came up as a cook for the camp.
6:01

TS: Ok.

6:02 BK: Um, so then she brought the younger children with her, and they stayed up for the
summer and we would visit. And I came up twice as a counselor. Once, uh, when I was in high
school, once when I was in college.

�6:15

TS: So then when, when would be the first time you were in Saugatuck Douglas?

6:20

BK: the first time, do you want me to say the year? And really date myself [laugh]

6:22

TS: You can if you want

6:24

BK: Um, I think it was 1961.

6:28

TS: Ok.

6:28 BK: Um. Yeah. That was my first time up here. The first time I had ever seen it. Um, one
of my friends from school, um, a girl named Linda, uh, in, had gone to camp, or maybe her older
sister had gone to camp. And so she invited me to come, and I did. And that was my first
experience. First time being in Michigan, and first time being in a sleep away camp.
6:52

TS: Ok. How long was the camp back then?

6:55 BK: It seems to me, I was talking about this with my sister. I think it was a little less then
two weeks. So I’m not sure if 10 days, 12 days, I don’t think it was full two weeks.
7:05

TS: Ok. That’s a pretty good chunk of time, though. To be away from home

7:07

BK: Yeah. It was, it was, yeah.

7:10 TS: And what was, um, what was your first impression? Especially being here for, um,
overnight stay probably with your friends, you know away from everything? For a block of 10
ten days. What was it like when you arrived in Saugatuck?
7:22 BK: Um. Well, we arrived by train back then. They used to leave from, I think it was
Grand Central, which is no longer there. It was down on Harrison Street I think. Anyway in
Chicago. Sort of like the near south side. And so that was an adventure coming on the train with
all the girls. I think we took up a whole car. And for years I’ve wondered where the train
stopped. Because there isn’t a train station in Saugatuck, but there is one in Fennville or there
was. And I think, I’m pretty sure it was the Fennville Station. We didn’t stop exactly in the town,
because I remember getting out of the train and it was like fields, farm fields all around us. So
maybe because we were towards the front and that end of the train stopped further away from the
station. Um. And there would be a school bus waiting. And the school bus would take us to
camp.
8:20

TS: Ok.

8:21 BK: Yeah. So I can still remember that being, looking out the train window and seeing
the school bus and, um. So anyway the school bus would take us to camp. And of course I think
this was the first time I ever saw sand dunes as well. So it, it was great to be out of the city. Like
I said. We lived on the north side of Chicago. Um. And I guess the really great thing about it was

�how close it was to the lake. Cause my family had always enjoyed being really close by the
water, and it great to have the beach within walking distance.
8:52 TS: Oh yeah. It must have been pretty amazing. Especially coming down the road toward
the camp, right? In the school bus on that narrow road going along the river.
8:57

BK: yeah. Yeah. Right.

9:02

TS: Man. Yeah. So. You were mostly struck by, I guess the natural area

9:07 BK: Yeah. Just the, the outdoors. The amount of time we were able to spend outdoors. I
mean, my family always did like to go to parks and to the beach and that, but it was nice to have
it right there at your doorstep. Everyday come out of your cabin, um, and just, you know, be able
to walk outside in the, just to be in the midst of the, the trees and just nature itself.
9:32

TS: Yeah.

9:34

BK: yeah.

9:35

TS: I guess when you went back home how did you describe that to your family?

9:39 BK: Well, my mother said, it was funny, my mother said for the first few days after I got
back from camp I was like an angel. It was just, I was a changed person for a few days anyway.
Until I got back in with my brothers and sisters. [laugh] But, uh, it really did I think create an
atmosphere of calm. Mm. Yeah.
10:03 TS: I understand that totally. Um so you’ve been coming to the area since 1961. What
places have you stayed?
10:12 BK: Well that’s interesting. When you go to camp, you go to camp, and that’s it. And
like we were talking before, the last day before you left camp, you would go into Saugatuck. We
would walk through the woods on a trail, and come down to the ferry you know, and take the
ferry across. And we were free I, I guess it was a few hours. I mean they specified a time where
we had to meet back, but it was the one time were we actually had, you know, a certain amount
of freedom to go, and to go to the drugstore. And we would go sometimes to the drugstore and
get ice cream or, um, a phosphate. Uh. Uh yeah. And then at that time they used to rent um, like
paddleboats right around the ferry area. Which they don’t anymore, so I don’t know when they
stopped that. A lot of times we would get in the paddle boat with one of our friends and kind of
paddle around Lake Kalamazoo, and um, also go to the post, also at the drug store we would get
post cards. Post cards to send home. Although they had those at camp too, because they, you
could buy them. They had a little, they called it a Tuck Shop. Kind of thing. Actually they called
it Shack. Which sounds funny now. And it was outside the dining room. And every day after
lunch. Oh, actually it was the rest period after lunch. But after that they would ring the bell, and
then you could go to the Shack. And they had the, they had like penny candy, um, you know.
Just little treats that you could get. And at the beginning of camp you came over with a certain

�amount of money, which handed over for the Shack. And so they would deduct it from your
account. If there was anything left you got that at the end.
11:56 TS: Yeah. That’s pretty cool. The credit system.
12:00 BK: Yeah. Yeah. It was, yeah. In fact, my sister, Jennifer who came up the next year
because she’s three years younger than me, um, she later on, when my mother was up at camp
being the cook, she would be, she was in charge of the shack. And she said she used to dread.
The kids would come pouring out. She was afraid they were going to knock over her, because it
was just about the size of um, not much bigger than a telephone booth. And it was right on the
edge of the ravine. She said she just envisioned someday they were just going to push her over
into the ravine. But that never happened.
12:35 TS: Oh, yeah. So it, now you said your mom came up to camp with you and your sisters,
did all of the members of your family? Have they been through this area?
12:44 BK: All of them have yeah. Um [throat clear] my mom didn’t come when we were
campers. She came up later on when I was in high school, and I was not going to camp anymore.
Um, and I think it was then at that time we got to explore more of the area. Because like I said,
when you came to camp you only came to camp. They had activities that were filling your day
every day and what reason would there be to go site seeing? You know, with camp activities, and
the beach, usually twice a day you can go there in the morning and then in the afternoon.
Campfires at night. So they really kept you busy. Um, but then as I came up later when I was a
teenager, um when my mom was at camp and my sister and I would sometimes drive up and
camp the family for the weekend, then we got to explore a little bit more. You know, what was in
Douglas, and at that time Douglas was, you know, nothing like it is now. Um, a lot of it had, I
don’t know. I don’t want to say closed down, but there were a lot of empty store fronts. And
there certainly wasn’t any artistic community. So about the only thing we did in Douglas was
sometimes go over to the bowling alley.
13:53 TS: ok
13:54 BK: Yeah. Um, yeah, and then of course we walked around Saugatuck. And that was fun
and taking the chain ferry, um, and then later on, um, when our daughters were very small, when
my husband and I were still living in Chicago we would come up here sometimes, um. And we
would stay at what was then called, uh, Shady Shores? Um, which is all condos now
14:20 TS: ok.
14:21 BK: Right at the entrance of Saugatuck. Right on the riverside. It’s all new condos. But
at that time it was little cinderblock cabins. And we would stay in that. And we would walk in to
town from there, um. Um, and I remember our little girls would like we would take to the
playground, and Pumpernickel’s was at that time kind of a campy store. So we’d go in there to
pick out candy
14:50 TS: That’s cool

�14:50 BK: yeah.
14:51 TS: So how, um, would you say that Saugatuck has changed from when you first got
here as a camper and you just saw it as a camp to when you bring your kids here to now?
15:00 BK: Uh. Well obviously it’s gotten more and more built up over time. I guess it always
was kind of an artist’s community. Oxbow was still, or was pretty active back then. When I was
a camper I didn’t know anything about it, but later on, and we visited there. Um. Certainly a lot
more restaurants. Um. The waterfront has probably been improved. Uh. Lot more boats, although
I can remember as a camper walking along and looking at the big boats and just being in awe of
these beautiful big boats and trying to imagine what it would be like to go on one of them. Rich
people [laugh]
15:44 TS: [laugh] right
15:45 BK: just a dream.
15:46 TS: I know, it’s still a dream. Walk down the board walk
15:52 BK: Yeah. Yeah. I know. It’s fun just to look at them, and it was back then. Yeah.
15:57 TS: Definitely. Well, what was um, your favorite place to eat in the summer? That could
have changed. You know, several different places.
15:59 BK: Oh my goodness. What was our favorite place to eat? Um. I rem, probably the
Butler. You know just because we didn’t know a lot about what else was here and we started
going there, and yeah, we enjoyed going there. And it was a good place to take kids. You know?
You didn’t worry about being too formal or anything.
16:30 TS: Yep
16:31 BK: Not that anyplace in Saugatuck is formal. But it was just very casual family
atmosphere. And there used to be a place called the Logan Muff. Loaf and Muff Deli. Which is
where Hercules, which was where Hercules is now. Yeah. And we used to enjoy going there for
like a casual breakfast or lunch sometimes.
16:52 TS: Yeah. I remember that place too. Uh, did you ever get a summer job in the area?
16:58 BK: No. Other than camp? No. no.
17:01 TS: ok.
17:02 BK: I came up probably when I was about 15 and was what they called a junior
counselor, and then I came back when I was in college and was a full counselor.

�17:09 TS: ok. All right. Well, we’ll dive into those in a few minutes I think.
17:14 BK: ok.
17:15 TS: Um, did you spend time on or near the water? Which we know you spent some time
at the beach, yeah.
17:18 BK: A lot. A lot. As much as we could
17:24 TS: Perfect. Yeah. What did you guys do? Uh. In the water? In the area?
17:28 BK: Um. Well we mostly. We would go to the beach and mostly just play in the water.
Play, swim. Whatever. And I said at night we would have campfires. Sometimes. Down on the
beach. And, um, actually sometimes, I forgot, there were sometimes when we’d come up for a
family camp that they had. And we would come up actually after we moved to the east coast we
only came a few times because it was a long trip. But we would go to the family camp and they
would have campfires on the beach. It was nice.
18:01 TS: That’s excellent. Outside of the paddle boat excursions on Lake Kalamazoo, did you
ever get out on a boat?
18:06 BK: Yeah. Uh. We’ve, we’ve rented a pontoon. We’ve gone, again as we came up. We
sort of, my family itself as we had such a big family, um, we sort had our own little reunion,
camp reunion, up, you know, up here. And we would get the canoes from Camp Gray and go out
and that was fun. And we also rented pontoon, and we had we’d gone kayaking from the uh, boat
launch in Douglas
18:40 TS: Ok. Yeah.
18:41 BK: We actually, my husband and I actually have our own two person kayak, which we
have used I think one time in the three years we’ve owned it [laugh]
18:48 TS: [laugh]
18:50 BK: um, but anyway. We’ve used several different kinds of boats on the water.
18:57 TS: Cool. Yeah. A lot of manual powered
19:00 BK: Yeah I guess that’s why maybe I’m not too crazy about it. Um. It takes some
strength in your arms. Yeah.
19:10 TS: Oh it does. Yeah. Especially in the river currents if you have to go back up
19:15 BK: Yeah. It’s nice if they drop you off. Like we rented kayaks from, um, whatever the
name was that, from Douglas. And she drove us up to I think New Richmond. And then, then we
came down. And that’s nice. You just come down the river and you get off. But when you take it

�out yourself that’s another story because you’ve got to get yourself up the river and back down.
Yeah. So we don’t normally go too far. Just kind of paddle around that little bay.
19:44 TS: Yeah. Makes sense. So how’s the river changed since the first time you’ve seen it.
19:49 BK: A little busier I guess. Yeah. More boats on it. You know. We had some friends that
had a cabin off, on Lake Kalamazoo. I’m trying to think. Off of the old Allegan Road.
20:05 TS: Ok
20:06 BK: And we went out one time with them in a rowboat. But it was a very quiet area, so
you didn’t really run into other boats. And I guess the bigger boats don’t really go up the river.
They mostly stay in the marina and then go out to Lake Michigan. So you don’t really run across
them. Although sometimes motor boats and you know, you have to watch out for them.
20:24 TS: Yeah. They don’t watch out for you sometimes
20:27 BK: Yeah. Yeah. You hope they’re watching out for you.
20:30 TS: Right? On those busy weekends though you can never tell.
20:31 BK: Yeah. So it’s usually, if you’re going to go, it’s usually better to go during the week
when it’s not that busy. Like the weekend
20:39 TS: Not major holidays either.
20:41 BK: Right
20:42 TS: Um, you talked about spending time in Douglas. Um, I guess could you tell me a
little more about the difference between the two towns.
20:54 BK: Oh. At the time. When we first started coming Saugatuck was really where all the
action was. Douglas was, was a little sleepy backwater town. Um. There really wasn’t much to
do in Douglas. You know, I can’t, there probably were some things, but like I said, um, we really
didn’t venture beyond the Demonds, which, the grocery store. Um, you know, it’s been there for
such a long time. Um, or the bowling alley. And that’s probably as far as we went. I don’t think
we went to the library at that time, because, just because we were more oriented toward the
camp. Yeah.
21:32 TS: Yeah. Yeah. All right.
21:35 BK: So I, you know. My memory of Douglas is just, there was nothing there.
21:39 TS: Yeah.
21:41 BK: In the 60’s [laugh]

�21:42 TS: It’s changed a lot even in my life time, too.
21:46 BK: Yeah, yeah. It continues to change. Um, yeah. You know the buildings. They put up
Center Street and just you know, things have been coming more alive. Pretty much active in the
downtown area of Douglas. And even started to extend on Center Street toward the lake, which
you know was never really there before.
22:08 TS: Wow. That’s pretty crazy. Yeah. Are there any other places or institutions that were
important to you in the area. We talked about the camp, you talked about
22:18 BK: Um. Well. I am a member of the historical society. Um, and I always like to go and
see what exhibits they’re showing in museums, so. My family has always loved going to
museums, so we were really happy to see that being active, and the programs here at the school
house as well. Other institutions? Um, I can’t really say I can’t think of them off hand, but you
know. [laugh]
22:52 TS: Good. That’s totally fine.
22:56 BK: Great supporter of the library too. I hope they get their new building.
22:58 TS: yeah. That’d be great. Right? All right. Let’s see. So where, where is your vacation
home currently in the area.
23:09 BK: In Douglas.
23:11 TS: In Douglas
23:12 BK: In Tower Marina
23:13 TS: Ok. Excellent
23:14 BK: Yeah. By the water. [laugh] Well you know, um, almost any place in Saugatuck
Douglas, you’re near the water. Not far, but we really like being able to look at the marina from
our patio. It, uh, yeah.
23:32 TS: It is a wonderful thing.
23:33 BK: Yeah. It is, it is
23:35 TS: That was the biggest problem I had in Tucson is that there’s no water, so it just starts
to grate on you
23:38 BK: Oh yeah, I, yeah. I guess a lot of people like that, but I can’t imagine living in a land
locked place. Even in Chicago had the lakefront. Which is great. You know within, within half
an hour um, you could be on the beach.

�23:58 TS: Yeah. Yeah. What, what neighborhood in Chicago were you
24:04 BK: uh, it, it’s called Irving Park. It’s in, it’s the Northwest side. Yeah. Well, I grew up
there. Then my husband moved to live a little bit further west. Moved to Portage Park for a few
years. Several years I guess.
24:20 TS: Yeah. So, Irving Park. I spent a year in Chicago, so I was up in that area, um, easy to
get to the lake from there.
24:28 BK: yeah. Yeah. You can go straight down to Irving Park, although my friends and I
used to go to Foster Beach which is a little bit further north. Uh. Yeah.
24:35 TS: Yeah. There’s a dog park in there now
24:42 BK: Oh is there?
24:42 TS: Yeah. You know. All right, I think we should dive into your, your camp experience
24:48 BK: Oh, ok
24:50 TS: So give me the, the breadth of your experience. You started off as a camper and
ended up as a senior counselor
24:57 BK: Counselor yeah. Yeah, uh I actually went to camp as a camper for I think only two
years. And my sister, my sister came my second year, and then she went a few more years. And
then my brother came. Brother Jim came and brought his friends. And then, uh, I’m not sure
about the younger siblings. How many of them went to camp on their own, or if they just came
up with my mother. I’m not sure about that. Um, and one thing I should mention because we’ve
been talking we were talking earlier about Camp Gray, um we were actually in a separate camp
called Peniel Camp, that was part of Camp Gray. But it was one section, and sometimes you’ll
see old pictures of the Penial Dining Hall, and it went up the hill probably, um a little bit to the
north
25:46 phone starts ringing in background
25:47 TS: I guess we’ll wait for the phone to stop ringing. I have no authority to answer it, so
we just have to
26:00 BK: Ok
26:05 pause while waiting for phone to stop ringing
26:07 TS: All right

�26:08 BK: All right. So Peniel was on the north end of Camp Gray. And the activities were
totally separate. They did not mix at all. It was a different, different, maybe population. The time
we went to camp, and I can’t swear to it, but my impression was that Camp Gray, the boys and
girls camp was for primarily intercity at that time, um, and we came from the north side of
Chicago. And some of the kids also came in from the suburbs, so camp, Peniel Camp was much
smaller, probably I’m going to say, maybe 25-30
26:45 TS: Oh, ok
26:47 BK: Yeah. Girls or boys. The girls and boys were separate. They had different camps,
um, so it was a smaller group, um, and um, different activities from Camp Gray. We didn’t even
share the same beach. There was, yeah, totally separate. In fact when I went to camp I did not
even know what Camp Gray looked like.
27:08 TS: Really?
27:10 BK: Yeah. Never ever went over there. So it’s not til I got older that, um, that I found out
about the rest of it, and we actually go over there sometimes. You know. Especially when they
had the camp, the family camp, or the camp reunions we would sometimes go over to their
dining hall. But when we were campers no. It was totally separate.
27:30 TS: Wow. And how’d you spell Peniel
27:35 BK: P-E-N-I-E-L
27:38 TS: Ok. So entirely separate? Separate administrations?
27:40 BK: Everything.
27:41 TS: Really. Wow. And there’s, uh, so you never actually even saw the other camp while
you were there.
27:46 BK: no. No. Um, when we would go down to the beach, was as close as we came. They
were up on the hill from us. And you could look up on the hill and sometimes you would see,
you know, the other kids, but. Never any mixing, intermingling. Whatever.
28:08 TS: So, back then, what, what did you think of that? Another camp and you just didn’t
know
28:14 BK: Um. I don’t know. They were just different kids from a different place. I don’t
know. They just, we had different schedules. Maybe it was, maybe they scheduled the beach
time so we weren’t on the beach at the same time. Maybe that’s why we didn’t see them.
28:28 TS: That could be. Yeah.

�28:29 BK: Yeah. I don’t know. But I also think that their beach, I mean honestly the whole
shoreline is beach, but I think that when they went down to the beach they were much further
down then us. Yeah. So we never saw them in the water or
28:40 TS: Ok. Ok. Yeah. That’s fascinating
28:44 BK: Yeah.
28:25 TS: So then for camp, Camp Peniel, was there a specific focus for the camp, or was it
mostly like get away do activities sort of basic camp.
28:54 BK: Um, they were both sort of under the hospices of the Presbyterian church. Um, I
suppose they had similar programs. I mean we would start the morning after breakfast we would
have chapel. And, um sometimes in the evening, but then there were various activities
throughout the day. And, uh, well, here’s one difference. Peniel was started by a group of what
they were called at the time Hebrew Christians. So they were Jewish people who believed that
Jesus was their Messiah. So they had that distinctive about them, but really and so there was a, a
block of people who had been part of this community center on the north side of Chicago who
had since moved out to the suburbs. And their children continued to come. But anybody then that
lived in the neighborhood, no matter what religion or background they had was welcome to come
to camp.
29:50 TS: Ok
29:51 BK: So. There was at that time it was run by a couple called Mr. and Mrs. K, our camp.
Uh. The K stood for Kominski but everybody called them the K’s. And Mr. Kominski would tell
Bible stories during chapel. And he was such a fascinating person. He’d be telling stories from
the Old Testament about David or whoever and he would just tell them in such a graphic way. It
was so entertaining. Of course it was before, um, you know all of the media that we have today.
But he was just a lovely, lovely person. Everyone loved him, and he was really the heart of the
camp. And then later on his nephew, Larry Rich took over. And when I came as a counselor
Larry was in charge, and we got to be good friends, and Larry was the minister at, uh, our
wedding.
30:42 TS: [laugh] very nice
30:44 BK: So that, that is a connection there
30:45 TS: Yeah. Yeah. That’s really cool. And you mentioned you know, that one of your
friends brought you up to camp and your brother brought his friends up to camp, so was it like a
local neighborhood word of mouth
30:58 BK: Yeah. Yeah it was. It was pretty much because I don’t know if they, if out of the
community center, outside they probably you know, promoted it. Advertised it. But, um, for us it
was word of mouth. Mmhm.

�31:14 TS: That’s cool. Do you know if, um, Camp Peniel and Camp Gray were on the same
timeline then? Did they both, were they sold at the same time?
31:22 BK: Um, [throat clear] Camp Peniel, um, probably ended, oh my gosh, um, I don’t think
they had campers past the 70’s, but they continued the family camp. And that was probably just
like once a year. You know, maybe like um, I think for a long weekend. They did have like a
week of family camp in between, but it got to be I think, um, like in the 2000’s, it was just
maybe like a long weekend. Uh, in the summer. Mm hm.
32:02 TS: Ok. And then, so what, what activities do you remember from your time as a
camper? Not necessarily the activities you did, but where did you sleep, where did you eat, you
know. Anything that stands out.
32:15 BK: Ok. Yeah. Um, well we slept in wooden cabins. Had no insulation. Of course you
didn’t need it in the summer. But basic, you know. The bare wooden walls. Um, pretty primitive
accommodations. You brought your own bedding. Um, thin mattresses. Uh, single, single beds
and in one set of cabins they had, um, they, they were probably I don’t know, three or four
different types of cabins. Um, some of them would sleep like three people. Two campers and a
counselor. Um, some of them would sleep 8 in bunkbeds. And I know there was one up in the
hill, up in the hillside that had the sinks outside. So I think I think it had, oh gosh, um, yeah. You
had to go outside to wash. I know that. And I don’t know exactly, if there was a toilet in the
cabin itself or not. I mostly stayed in the other ones that had just a sink and a toilet both enclosed,
but pretty, pretty primitive. But you didn’t spend much time in there. You slept in there and you
were busy all day long doing stuff. Um, and the dining hall, um the meals I’m going to say again
were pretty simple. The camp, camp was incredibly cheap. I mean I don’t even remember, but it
seemed to me that even back in the 60’s and of course that is a long time ago, it was something
like $20, $25 for a kid. So cheap. So you know they did what they could with the money that
they had. They certainly, we certainly didn’t have anything that was tech because there wasn’t
anything like that back then. But we had a lot of activity and the meals were pretty simple. Um, it
was enough to eat. I’m not going to say that you went hungry. They had this policy that you had
to sample everything. Even if you just took a tablespoon, you had to sample everything. Yeah, so
if you were a fussy eater, well you might be out of luck. But that was interesting because, um,
when as I mentioned the previous director’s nephew took over, one of the things he changed is
no more powdered milk. He said “I couldn’t stand when I was a kid, when I was a kid, and we’re
not going to have it now.” [laugh]
34:35 TS: [laugh]
34:38 BK: And also when my mom came in as cook, um, she, she introduced uh, different
foods. Having raised 8 children, she knew what kids liked and didn’t like. Um. And she said her
kids were the fussiest eaters. She had to make something different for every of them, every night
was like running a restaurant. Well at camp they didn’t do that. Um, there would always be an
alternative. If you didn’t really want to eat something you could have a bowl of cereal. Yeah.
Yeah, right? And, uh. Oh yeah, I was just thinking about some of the activities. One thing that
we used to do and I hadn’t thought of before we used to always have an outing, maybe two
outings to Mt. Baldie. We called it Mt. Baldie at that time. I think they call it Mt. Baldhead now,

�but it was always known as Mt. Baldie back then. And so then we would go over there, and we
walked everywhere. We hiked everywhere. Which is another reason we didn’t go very far. But
anyway we would go over to Mt. Baldie and, um, we didn’t climb the stairs but we did, I think
we up the back side of the mount, the dune. From the beach. And then they would have trails that
you would run down, and sort of like, yeah. Just running down them. And they had names to
them. I don’t remember the names now. My brother would. But um, so and yeah, yeah. That was
a lot of fun. And then you would come down. There’s a pavilion right at the bottom of Mt.
Baldie, and there would be somebody there. And they would have like peanut butter and jelly
sandwiches or whatever kind of sandwiches they made. And we’d all eat there before we went
back to camp. One of my brothers, my oldest brother, Jim. The one that was born up in Canada,
um, I think set a record. He went up 20 times, 20 or 21 times, hiked up and ran down. [laugh]
36:32 TS: Jeez [laugh]
36:33 BK: He deserves a special t-shirt for that.
36:38 TS: Yeah. Oh man. Because I’ve done it lately, and I did it three times. And I was done.
36:42 BK: I know, right? Oh, I know, he was probably about 12 or 13 then. Lot more, lot more
energy [laugh]
36:48 TS: Yeah, boundless energy back then. Oh that’s cool. Um, what was like your favorite
location in camp. Was there a specific spot that you enjoyed them most?
37:00 BK: Oh. Other than the beach? Cause really the beach was, I think a big draw. Um, we
had like a game area outside of the dining hall. Uh. It was down the hill a little bit. And they had
shuffle board and ping pong, and they had this pole with a ball attached called tether ball. Yeah.
So the games were fun too. And there was free time. And we had a lot of activities scheduled,
but there was also free time, sometimes after supper or sometimes in the afternoon and you could
play games. And there was also a volleyball court up on the hill. And we used to play games up
there sometimes.
37:40 TS: Ok. Nice.
37:43 BK: Yeah. And we used to hike. We used to play a game called capture the flag. And we
would do that in the dunes. We would go over by Oval Beach in the evening
37:52 TS: Oh, that’d be the ultimate capture the flag spot
37:53 BK: Yeah. [laugh]
37:56 TS: Fantastic. Do you keep up with any of your friends from the camping days?
38:01 BK: Um. No. Not really no. Um, I’ve heard stories of some of them going around the
world, but no. Actually I won’t say I actually kept up with my friend that first invited me, Linda,
but um, I did get in touch with her sister on the internet one time. Her sister, who told me that

�Linda married a man whose mother owned a place in Saugatuck. So I thought that was a really,
really interesting connection. Yeah.
38:35 TS: Really? Yeah. Small world isn’t it?
38:38 BK: It is
38:41 TS: So having been there as a camper for just a couple years, how did you get involved
in coming back as a junior counselor and then a full counselor?
38:52 BK: Um, I guess because we sort of stayed. Because of the fact that I had brothers and
sisters coming in, and also my mom coming up, and so it sort of kept some kind of loose contact
and um, I just, I knew that there were opportunities there. That they needed people at camp, so
yeah.
39:08 TS: What were your, um, I guess tell us, tell us about your responsibilities as counselor
of the camp.
39:14 BK: Um, as a counselor, oh wow. Um. Basically I believe I’d have a cabin with some
girls and um, it seems to me, well as junior counselor you didn’t have that responsibility, but as a
regular counselor, you’d have responsibility for a cabin of girls. And it seems to me the girls I
had were a little wild. Had a little bit of a problem keeping them under control. But yeah I was
responsible for them for being there, uh, making sure they got to the activities they were
supposed to and talking with them if the needed someone to talk with and things like that
39:53 TS: All right.
39:54 BK: Making sure they didn’t get lost and [laugh]
39:55 TS: [laugh] yeah. Playing capture the flag
39:59 BK: Yeah.
40:00 TS: So you were a camper when you were in like elementary school, junior high?
40:06 BK: Um, junior high yeah. Yeah.
40:08 TS: And then a counselor, a junior counselor in high school, and then a senior counselor
in college?
40:12 BK: Uh huh. Yeah. I think that was sophomore year in college. Yeah.
40:14 TS: All right.
40:15 BK: I came up

�40:16 TS: Did you enjoy being a counselor?
40:19 BK: um. I did. Um, it’s, it was challenging. Yeah. It was challenging. But, uh, I did.
Yeah. I actually before had been a counselor at this, at Peniel camp. I was a coun, not a
counselor but I ran up and um. Yeah, I was actually. I’m sorry. I’m mixing things up. Um, I had
gone up to a camp in Canada called Pioneer camp. Pioneer Girls’ Camp. And it was up in the
north woods of Canada. And I spent six weeks up there. So that I did after my freshman year I
think it was. And then I did this after my sophomore year.
40:52 TS: So this was like a walk in the park, right?
40:54 BK: [laugh] yeah. Pioneer Girls’ camp. That, that was really, um, really a bit more
rugged because we slept in tents the whole time. But they, they were huge tents. They were big
canvas tents on wooden platforms. Yeah. And we had, we were actually the camp was on a lake,
up in the north woods of Canada. It was beautiful. Um The mornings were chilly. Especially
when it got to August. Mid or late August it was pretty chilly. Um. Yeah. But that, that was a
really wonderful experience.
41:34 TS: That sounds good
41:35 BK: yeah.
41:36 TS: Different weather here. Um, what would be then, like if you had to pick one singular
camp memory from your time as a camper and a counselor, is there anything that stands out to
you ? Like this is a story I tell
41:46 BK: Oh my goodness. Uh. Wow. Hm. I can’t, you know I can’t think so much of
something distinctive when I was a camper other than just, you know, enjoying the environment
and um, hm. That, that’s a hard one. Yeah, I really, you know, I have different memories of
different things, but it’s hard to think of something that was distinctive.
42:20 TS: yeah. That’s understandable. Um, you talked about the Shack and the snacks
42:25 BK: [laugh] the candy shack
42:29 TS: Yeah. So, what sort of facilities were there then. So you had your cabins, and you
had the game area, and the dining hall. Was there, what, what was the layout of the buildings I
mean?
42:40 BK: Um, they were all on the side of the sand dunes. So you would come in on the road
that led off the Oval Beach road. Is that Ferry? It has a name, but I can’t remember
42:52 TS: I think it’s Ferry
42:56 BK: Ferry goes down the bottom of it. And it might be Perryman, I think that goes up the
hill. Yeah. Well at any rate, you get how, like half way up. It’s where that whole new

�development is now. Um, but you go beyond their main gate and there’s another road, sort of a
backroad. And that’s where you went in to Pineal Camp. That road. Um. And so you would
come up the road, and it would be at like a little bit of an incline. And then to, to your right
would be I think the chapel. Small building was the chapel. It was also game and craft room, so
first, in the early morning it would be a chapel, and then later on it would be a craft room or a
game room whatever. Pretty flexible. And on Sunday we always had a church service in there.
And then across from that was the shuffleboard and the game stuff, and then above that was the
dining hall. And then in between would be the director’s cabin, and then to the left of that, just
on the ravine was the candy shack. And then there was the cook’s cabin, which my mom stayed
in, and there was another staff cabin over there. And there was another, then you’d go up the hill
and there’d be some more cabins. Smaller cabins. And then as I said there was that one big cabin
up in the near the top of the hill. Which had, I think, two main rooms and probably four
bunkbeds in each of those rooms. Often the younger campers would stay in those. I don’t know
why they put them at the top, but whatever. So they’d have to pass everybody else when they
were on their way out or trying to escape [laugh]. Something like that. Um, yeah. So basically
you would come in off the road and then you would go up the hill, and then the cabins would be
like up a mountainside, but a dune side. Until you got to the top of the hill. And then that was
where the volley ball court was.
44:48 TS: All right. That’s excellent. Um
44:50 BK: And no showers by the way. If you wanted a shower you had to go down to the, one
of the staff cabins. And then underneath was a shower area.
45:00 TS: underneath the cabin? [laugh]
45:01 BK: [laugh] Yeah. I mean it was up, I mean it was raised up on you know
45:04 TS: yeah.
45:05 BK: Yeah. But I’m just saying like the first floor, the lower floor was the shower room.
Where’d you go take uh, if you wanted a shower.
45:13 TS: So you guys didn’t take your soap down to Lake Michigan and
45:15 BK: No, but that’s funny. When I was up at the camp that was up in Canada, and I know
that’s a whole another story, but, um, they would wash in the lake. Mmhm. Yeah.
45:22 TS: All right. I can see the whole thing in my head now
45:27 BK: [laugh]
45:28 TS: And how did your mom get involved?
45:32 BK: I guess just because of the fact that I, um, you know she had children, several
children going to the camp. I think, um I had a brother Steve who lived here. You may, may or

�may not know about him. He and his partner Jen, um own the Joes and Heath (?) Colonial Inn.
The B&amp;B. Mm hm.
45:48 TS: Ok. Yeah.
45:52 BK: So, um, he, he came to camp. I’m sorry. I lost my train of thought. What I was
talking about
46:02 TS: Um, oh. Your mom and having
46:03 BK: Mom. Yes. So anyway, he says he came as a camper. I don’t remember. I guess I
was maybe in college by then and I didn’t, I don’t really know. Or maybe I was even married by
then. Um. At any rate, yeah he came as a camper, but he also came with my mom. I guess he
came with my mom first maybe, and then came as a camper. Um, and so, and also as I
mentioned Pineal was managed, directed whatever, out of this community center on the north
side of Chicago. And they had programs for um, children and mothers and families and
whatever. So my mother would go up there sometimes to, you know. Yeah.
46:47 TS: I, I can’t remember if you said the name of that community center
46:52 BK: Pineal
46:53 TS: Pineal. That makes sense right?
46:53 BK: Pineal Center it was called [laugh]. Yeah. Pineal Center, and they ran Pineal Camp.
47:00 TS: What, um, do you remember any of the menus your mom made? You mentioned
that she took a different approach to the food
47:05 BK: To the food. Yeah, yeah, well, that’s basically was her area of responsibility. So she
did what she could to try and make kid friendly
47:15 TS: Yeah. And I’m sure everyone appreciated that
47:17 BK: I think so
47:18 TS: Powdered milk is out
47:19 BK: Yeah. Yeah, you know. It was different days then. I mean today people, powdered
milk, what is that? Some people cook with it I guess still, but
47:29 TS: That’s true. And what, um, you may have said it already, what was your mother’s
name?
47:35 BK: Reeny. Mmhm.

�47:37 TS: Cool. Um, did all of your siblings pass through Camp Pineal?
47:42 BK: Um, I think so because Steven was the youngest, my, my brother. Who I just
mentioned?
47:46 TS: Yeah.
47:47 BK: And he’s the youngest of the family so yeah. I guess everyone did.
47:52 TS: All right. And how many siblings did you say you have?
47:54 BK: Uh, seven
47:56 TS: 7, that’s what I thought. Ok. Yeah. Lot of kids
47:58 BK: Yeah. It was, um, it was a wonderful thing for a family of a lot of children you
know, just to be able to, to do that. To go away so inexpensively and you know, have that kind of
experience
48:10 TS: Yeah. And summer must have been uh fun time for your parents with 7 kids out on
the loose right?
48:15 BK: [laugh] 8 actually
48:17 TS: 8. Yeah. 8 total. Yeah.
48:22 BK: Yeah. Yeah. But, uh, yeah. There was enough space between us that the older ones
took care of the younger ones.
48:27 TS: Oh that’s good
48:28 BK: yeah.
48:30 TS: I’ll bet. Yeah. Well, what um, are there any other details or images or memories or
48:37 BK: Oh goodness. Yeah, wow. I think I’ve. Let me think is there anything else. It’s
funny because I was talking with my sister I said I don’t remember a lot. And she said “Oh sure
you do.” And we started talking about it. But now it’s like, I think I told you everything I can
remember. Um. Yeah. The only other thing—oh! You asked about the boats that we went on
49:00 TS: Yeah.
49:01 BK: The paddle wheel. I forgot that one. We, we have been on it numerous times
because just because everybody that comes to visit us we take on that boat.
49:12 TS: All right

�49:13 BK: Yeah. So. Wyatt and I really enjoy it. The old star of Saugatuck. Yeah. It was there
when we were campers. I don’t remember if we ever went on it when we were campers. I think
probably not. But certainly saw it
49:25 TS: Yeah. Ok. yeah
49:27 BK: It’s been around a long time
49:29 TS: And you, you still enjoy taking it to this day then?
49:30 BK: Yeah. Yeah. It’s probably been a year or two since we’ve been on it, but yeah. A
couple years ago we had some cousins from Wisconsin come to, and we took them on it
49:40 TS: It’s a great tour
49:41 BK: mmhm. It is. It really is. We also like to go on the sunset tour. That, that. I think
that’s the best, provided there’s a sunset, but even so it’s nice to take an evening boat ride
49:52 TS: Yeah, on a nice summer day.
49:54 BK: uh huh. yeah
49:57 TS: I helped out with, uh, I worked on the boat a little bit last year.
49:59 BK: oh did you?
50:00 TS: And my girlfriend works on it this year. My mom actually works on it too, so I’ve,
you know, we’ve crossed paths in our various
50:08 BK: yeah. I guess so. yeah
50:10 TS: Associations around town. Yeah. All right Camp Pineal. I guess we can move toward
the, the uh. These questions here. I guess an obvious one is, um, that property’s been sold, you
know. What do you think about what’s happening now?
50:31 BK: uh, well, I would have done whatever I could have to try and save it. Um, a lot of
emails went back and forth among my siblings and the camp. And we just felt so bad it was
being sold, that other kids wouldn’t have the chance to experience what we did. Um, but
probably my sister and I, my sister Jennifer and I are the oldest, and we probably feel, felt the
most keenly. Um, my brothers were more philosophical, and said well, it had its time and now
it’s moved on to something else, yeah, um, but yeah. I, I, am really sorry that it went. I just think
it was such a fantastic opportunity for kids and families to just come and really enjoy the area
and enjoy the beauty of the lake, and you know, the woods and the dunes, and now, well what
could I say? Progress. Yeah. Some people call it progress. [laugh]

�51:32 TS: Yup, yup
51:34 BK: but to me, um I felt really sad about it
51:40 TS: Yeah. Yeah. Well then what, I suppose this is a hard question, but if you could sum
up what Camp Pineal and Camp Gray and your time there, what it meant for you, just in general
in your life, and your outlook and your perspective
51:55 BK: yeah. Uh. That’s a hard one, um, it had a very positive influence on me. Um. I think
in terms of my faith, I wouldn’t say that it was that strong then, but I think that it probably
planted seeds in me, and just um, I mean my family had, all my family had gone to church really,
but there was something about camp. There was a spirit there that, um, I don’t know. Just kind of
awakened a spiritual hunger in me. And, uh, yeah I’m just always thankful um, that I had that
opportunity. And it, it’s an interesting thing. Because I told you we live now in Douglas, and
how that came about I mean we had been from Chicago and certainly were familiar with this
area and had come up on vacation sometimes when our children were small. And then we moved
out to the east coast, and I don’t think we didn’t come back again until our older daughter was in
college
53:08 TS: Ok.
53:09 BK: Actually later than that. She went to law school at the University of Michigan. And
so we decided one summer when she was out there in Ann Arbor, um, to all meet up for
vacation. And we said “Why don’t we go to Saugatuck? We haven’t been there in years.” And so
we came, and so we did. And we rented a cabin on Lake Michigan, um, actually down in Glenn.
But we were right at the top of the dune where you could look down over the water. Incredible.
So beautiful
53:42 TS: Beautiful view
53:45 BK: Um, my daughter had been going through kind of a stressful time. You know, law
school’s not easy, but actually this was at the start of law school now that I think about it, but she
had been going through some stress and it was such an incredible, beautiful, relaxing time. And
so we kind of got reacquainted with the area again. And then we came up to Saugatuck and, I
don’t think it was that year. It was maybe a year later, and we were looking around, and our
daughters said “Why don’t, we like this place so much, why don’t we have a place here?” I said
“Well I don’t know if we could afford it. I don’t” and, but we had been talking about getting a
vacation home. And so we were looking around and, uh, and then we came back home and it
was, the Fall um, you know we hadn’t made any decision. We had looked at a number of
properties from Glen all the way up to Saugatuck. Um, and then this one condo we, we had
looked at came, was up for sale, and the realtor called us and said, uh, one, the one place that we
really liked. She said “Somebody else has put a bid on it.” But she said “there might be an
opening for you.” And we thought, oh, we really did, did want to be here. We really did want to
have a place. So we put a bid in, and the other people dropped out, and we got it. So here we are.
We’ve been here 11 years now

�55:09 TS: That’s great. Yeah.
55:11 BK: Yeah. So that, it was funny how, it was something like how from our past that had
really been a place that we enjoyed and had good family memories from, uh then serendipitously
you might say we reconnected with our daughter going to law school in Ann Arbor
55:30 TS: That’s pretty amazing
55:32 BK: Yeah
55:33 TS: And your brother’s here too, right
55:34 BK: Yeah. And then, yeah. What happened like three or four years ago, um, we always
have a big family party on Labor Day. We invited everybody to come up, anybody that wants to
on Labor Day, the weekend. And, um, he and his girlfriend Jen came up, and um, they stayed at
uh, they stayed in town at one of the, the other rental, and um, I don’t know. They’d been
thinking about it, talking about it a lot, but they found out a house was for sale. Actually it was
owned by a family which we knew. We knew for years. Um, and he called me and said, uh, “do
you have a contact number for them?” he said “I’d like to talk to them about, about their house.”
And that’s how that started. I guess about 3 or 4 years ago. Yeah. Yeah. So now my brother is
like really, really cemented in the community.
56:28 TS: His inn, yeah.
56:29 BK: Yeah. He really put his heart and soul into, into building that place
56:32 TS: It’s a cool looking place. Yeah, yeah.
56:34 BK: Or rebuilding it, yeah.
56:35 TS: So he’s here year around then, huh
56:38 BK: Yeah. Well, they just opened up, um, they had their first guests I think, uh, late
spring. Yeah
56:44 TS: Yeah
56:45 BK: Yeah.
56:46 TS: Excellent
56:48 BK: Spent about two years of rehabbing it. Restoring. Yeah.
56:50 TS: Yeah, that’s, that’s a big task.
56:54 BK: yeah. Incredible property, uh, so now he’s an anchor in town.

�57:00 TS: You know, it’s fascinating that your friends came up to this camp, then you came up
to the camp, and then your siblings and your mom, and then you guys came back later and you
guys
57:07 BK: Yeah, yeah. All hinged on my one friend Linda Cahill [laugh]
57:10 TS: [laugh] All credit to her, right? That’s really cool. Um, I thought another question but
I lost it. [pause] Well. We can plod at the ones on the list. What are some of your hopes for the
future, for yourself, for your family members, or your community?
57:31 BK: Mm. Oh my goodness.
57:34 TS: Narrow easy to answer questions here
57:35 BK: [laugh] yeah right? Uh, well you know there’s always a balance between, um,
keeping things the way they are and making progress and improving things. And so yeah, um,
from a selfish point of view you want to keep as much open space as possible. Um, but then you
realize that, um, in order to have the amenities that people want, changes have to happen. Things
have to be, uh, old things sometimes have to be torn down. New things built up. Um, so I guess
I’m hoping that as much open space can be preserved as possible. That, that, they’re, they won’t
get so crowded, um, that it won’t be as enjoyable as it is. Yeah. But then you know. Why
shouldn’t people enjoy it? So yeah, you know, it’s a selfish point of view just wanting to keep
things just as they are, um, or wanting others to enjoy it as well without getting to the point
where it’s too crowded, too busy. Um. One of the things that we love about here compared to the
east coast is event when, when it’s crowded it’s never like it is out there where you sit in traffic
jams on single lane roads for well hour, could be hours. It’s um, well, I love Cape Cod. But, we
have not been out there in years. Probably since we bought this place. Um. But, uh, you, you
have, it’s just as beautiful here as it is on Cape Cod to me. Um. With half the traffic. Half the
crowds. And a lot less expense. For us to have the same condo out there would be at least twice
the price or three times.
59:37 TS: Oh man. you did it right then
59:40 BK: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It’s um no it’s one of, like some people say one of the best kept
secrets. People from the east coast and the west coast too, they, they know the ocean. Which is
fantastic. But Lake Michigan is not a lake. As, you know, talking to people they say “Oh lakes
are nice.” It’s not a lake. It’s a great lake, it’s like an inland sea. And we have had friends come
to visit as say, standing on the beach say “You wouldn’t know this wasn’t the ocean.” They don’t
realize, you know you look out, as far as you can see on the horizon, it’s water. Except for the
fact of course the waves and the roughness of the ocean is different, and salt water, too, but um,
it’s every bit as beautiful. And, in some ways, nicer I think. Yeah.
1:00:33
understand

TS: That’s a good perspective. The ocean versus the lake. A lot of people don’t

�1:00:37
BK: Yeah, they don’t they, if they haven’t been to the Midwest they have no idea
what it, what a great lake is like
1:00:42
TS: No. yeah. Yeah. Seeing it on the map does not do it justice in person. That is
for sure. Um. Would you want your children to go into your line of work? We haven’t talked
about your line of work
1:00:54

BK: [laugh] Retired

1:00:59

TS: Would you like them to be retired?

1:01:02

BK: Actually, God willing, um, um, no, so do you want to talk about what I did?

1:01:08
there

TS: Yeah, we’ll talk about what was your line of work and then we can go from

1:01:13
BK: Um. Well, I worked a lot in media, in fact for the 20 years before I retired I
worked in the New York Times. And, um, I worked in research. And I really enjoyed what I did.
Yeah. In fact, one of the, um, big projects that I had, ongoing projects, was reader panel, where,
um we maintained the, um a panel of a couple of thousand readers would give us their opinions
on various things, and so I got involved in writing surveys and analyzing results and reports. And
it was interesting to me because it was never the same thing all the time. So that was a lot of
variety. Which I enjoyed. I get bored if I have to do the same thing all the time. As most people
do
1:02:04

TS: Yeah. Yeah.

1:02:05
Yeah.

BK: But, um, anyway I retired about ten years ago. So. Oh actually, nine years.

1:02:12

TS: Congratulations on that.

1:02:14
BK: [laugh] and then for a couple, and then for a few years, I actually have a
degree in counseling. Masters in counseling, so for a few years I worked at a women’s
community center. And that was, that was very enjoyable. Yeah. I liked that a lot. But right now
I’m, I’m just doing things with my family and traveling and enjoying Saugatuck.
1:02:38

TS: Good.

1:02:39

BK: In summer. Saugatuck Douglas I should say. Right

1:02:44
TS: Um, looking back on your career as research at the New York Times and as a
counselor, would that be something you would have wanted your children to go into?
1:02:54
BK: Oh, both my daughters are teachers. One is teaching at inner city school in
Philadelphia. Um, the other one is a PhD candidate, and she was teaching at college level, and

�this year she’s in a special program, um for graduate students, well for PhD students, um, at the
university of Pennsylvania. Uh. It’s a wonderful opportunity. She’s in history. So, if I had to do it
again, I think I might have become a teacher. And I’m glad that they’re teachers. Yeah. So.
1:03:33

TS: All right. I understand that. Yeah. I taught as well

1:03:38
BK: Yeah, I think it’s, uh, I did, at the community center I taught, um, work
readiness program. So I, um, worked with women. Inner city women, who were, uh, trying to get
back into the work force. And that was a wonderful experience.
1:03:54

TS: Very nice. Very cool. A useful profession. That is for sure.

1:03:58

BK: Mm. A challenging profession.

1:04:01

TS: Yes. Very challenging. Yeah. That’s not a job you get to leave at home.

1:04:05

BK: Yeah. Yeah.

1:04:10
TS: Um. What do you think are some of the greatest needs currently facing your
family and/ or your community?
1:04:16
BK: [pause] hm [pause]. Huh. Greatest needs. Huh. I don’t know. Well [pause]
hm. How to say this? Um. Saugatuck is a wonderful party town. If you like to party. There’s tons
of stuff to do, you know especially being in the outdoors. Um. I’m probably going to say, I think
the greatest need is spiritual. I think that sometimes I feel a little emptiness, a little shallowness,
like it’s uh, yeah. Um, it’s, it’s easy to, uh, especially when there’s a lot of money, it’s easy to
get caught up in just having fun, and I think there’s more to life than just having fun. [pause]
[laugh]
1:05:26

TS: That is true

1:05:26

BK: Is that kind of negative?

1:05:29

TS: No. It’s not

1:05:30
BK: Um. Yeah. So you know, I think it’s important to value people, um, I think
faith is important too. I believe this is not all there is. And there’s an emptiness if you think this
is all there is and this is all you live for. Just to have fun. So fun is great. I’m not against fun. Or
having a good time, enjoying, you know, whatever resources you’ve been blessed to have. Um,
but I also think you need to care about others. You need to care about um, people in need. Yeah.
1:06:08
TS: That’s not a negative approach at all. It’s not. I think that’s wonderful advice.
Um. Remembering that this interview will be saved for a long time, when someone listens to this
tape, 50 plus years from now, what would you most like them to know about your life and
community now in 2018.

�1:06:27
BK: Oh my goodness. About the community? Um. [pause] well I hope that it
becomes more and more of a welcoming place. Um. [pause] we, how should I say this? We’ve
often commented, my family has commented on the fact that you hardly ever see minorities in
town. Um, of course we don’t want to go back to where it was in the 60’s where riots and police
had to come in. You know. And you know. Everyone wants a nice place to come to. Yeah. But I
guess I would like to see more types of people just enjoying, being able to enjoy what’s here.
Um. As for myself [pause] what I would like people to remember about me? Well two things are
important to me: one is my love of God, and the other is my love of family. And I hope that um,
that I will have had had a positive impact on other people because of those things.
1:08:02
TS: Ok. Very good. Um segwaying onto that. Any advice for a young person who
may listen to this tape, perhaps 50 years in the future, or 5 years in the future.
1:08:14
BK: Oh, advice, uh, yeah. I would say that this life is not all there is, and don’t
live as if, don’t live just for yourself. Remember that God created for a purpose, and you need to
seek that purpose.
1:08:37
TS: Excellent. All right. Anything else that you would like to share that I may not
have asked you about? Anything you want to describe, get off your chest? Put down for
posterity? Any details we missed?
1:08:51
BK: I can’t think of anything else [pause] I don’t know. I, no doubt when I walk
away from here I’ll think oh I could have told him about this, or I could have told him about that,
or how come I forgot, but right now I think we’ve pretty well covered [laugh]. Yeah. It seems
like we have.
1:09:17
TS: Well right. Well. Thank you so much for your time and for sharing your
memories with me. This concludes the interview
1:09:27

BK: Right

1:09:27

TS: [laugh]

interview ends 1:09:29

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&#13;
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&#13;
Throughout his photography career, he pursued both freelance commercial work as well as artistic work. His art photography is characterized by its classic black-and-white format, and features people, places and objects shot great attention and sensitivity. Gilbert's works are held in the permanent collections of the Art Institute of Chicago, the High Museum of Art in Atlanta, The Norton Simon Museum in Pasadena, and the Grand Valley State University Art Galleries, as well as in numerous private and institutional collections.&#13;
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&#13;
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