518 24 26018 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/75d9937eb43320576c6d4ee8342564ef.m4v 3163937d868a95cb4fe01c393df640c9 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1253d716bc88ed3aab9014c94b77a443.pdf 5c7d58b20ecb8c2520f77b7070e140f7 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Korean War Gordon Ludema Length of interview (12:23) (00:00) Background Served as a staff sergeant for the U.S. Air Force. (00:17) When the attack on Pearl Harbor occured, he was 11 years old living on a farm in Dorr, Michigan. At his age, he didn’t have much of a grasp of what was happening. (04:29) Worked in a garage as a mechanic while in high school. (00:39) Enlisted in the Air Force after high school in order to avoid being drafted into the army. (00:27) Joined the service in August 1948. (00:56) (01:06) Basic Training Basic training took place in Texas for 13 weeks. All of their drilling was done in 100 degree weather. (01:11) Didn’t learn to fly until after basic training. (01:28) (01:41) Service Overseas Served in Japan when the Korean War started. (01:41) Flew 104 combat missions while in Korea. (01:56) Flew DC-3 planes, one of the oldest Air Force airlines. Every country involved in the Korean War had them. (06:55) Served as a radio operator. At night, his unit was responsible for dropping flares while the enemy was moving their convoys. This allowed U.S. fighters and bombers could wipe out their convoys. (02:02) Dropped three or four flares at a time that were equipped with parachutes. (07:32) Recalls that his missions were very scary. Says that their planes were shot at almost every time they flew, but were only actually hit once when a large shell had gone off. They dove to miss it and could hear the shell pellets hit the plane, but were not shot down. (02:29) His most memorable experience occured while flying over Wonsan harbor in North Korea. Their plane lost power at 5,000 ft with surrounding mountains at 6,800 ft. Describes their circling manuevers to avoid them. (02:56) Kept in touch with his family by writing them weekly. (03:30) In his free time, he took courses through the United States Armed Services Institute. Describes his free time as rather boring and slow. (03:50) Was never injured during his service. (06:50) Was stationed in Iwakuni, Japan, and duscusses the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Thought that the bombings were drastic, but necessary. (05:15) His outfit was on alert to move into China, but the operation was cancelled once MacArthur was fired. Didn’t think that moving into China would have extended the war. �(08:46) Had a three year enlistment agreement that was extended for an extra year. Because he had furlow time, he was discharged a month early in July of 1952. (06:20) (08:21) Life After Service Was living in Coopersville when the Korean War ended. (08:21) Still keeps in touch with one of his good friends who served all four years in Korea with him. Hasn’t seen most of the people that he flew with in years. (09:30) His outfit, nicknamed The Fireflies, does not organize reunions. (09:55) When he returned to the United States, he began working in the car business purchasing cars at auctions for car dealers in Michgian, Indiana, North Dakota, Minnesota, and Nebraska. Still buys and sells cars today. (10:19) His experience in the service made him realize that although he doesn’t like war, it can be necessary when talking is ineffective. (11:06) Thinks that our current involvement in Iraq is necessary and that more action against the insurgents is still needed. (11:42) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context LudemaG Title A name given to the resource Ludema, Gordon (Interview outline and video), 2005 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Ludema, Gordon Description An account of the resource Gordon Ludema served as a staff sergeant for the U.S. Air Force during the Korean War. After high school in August of 1948, he enlisted in the Air Force in order to avoid being drafted into the army. After spending 13 weeks in Texas for basic training, he learned to fly DC-3 planes before his outfit went overseas. He served as a radio operator and at night, his outfit was responsible for dropping flares so that U.S. fighters and bombers could attack enemy convoys. While in Korea and Japan, he flew a total of 104 combat missions. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Chrzanowski, Ryan (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American United States. Air Force Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2005-06-07 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/933303fd86acbd3719f73adb6d94398e.pdf ab5ee8f5064aec4de9d0b9324623d440 PDF Text Text I II I I I I .. . .. ·,. LUDINGTON COMPREHENSIVE PLAN I I I WEST MICHIGAN REGIONAL PLANNING COMMISSION �FRO\·i 7~•E Li0;-1f\.~'i' OF l?lanning & Zon;ng .Ce!l~~r, Irie . • • • • •I I I I I I I I I . LUDINGTON COMPREHENSIVE PLAN by: Ludington Planning Commission with assistance from: West Michigan Regional Planning Commission 1987 �•II I •I LUDINGTON COMPREHENSIVE PLAN I I I •I • •I I •I • • • Ludington City Planning Commission - 1987 Helen M. Nelson, Chairperson &John R. Bulger Joe R. Clark Beverly J. Gavigan Paul J. Ivkovich Martin Page Ronald L. Scott Robert E. Sha"' Douglas Shoup Other Contributing Previous Planning Commission Members James Braden Jack Ereon Harold Hill Betty Maskal Frank Petersen Jan Tava Jan Dues Wi 11 i am Hartley John Markov Bruce McFarren Paul Peterson �TABLE OF CONTENTS Table of Contents • • . List of Tables . . List of Figures . . . Resolutions of Adoption I. II. i iii iii iv Introduction. 1 Goals, Policies, and Implementation Techniques Economic Development .....•..•.•.•• Housing . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Central Business District/Commercial Development . Transportation . • • . • . . • . • . • • • • • Recreation and Cultural Services . • • • • • . Physical Development . . . • . • • . • • • . . . • 5 5 6 8 11 12 13 III. Community Characteristics . • • • Location and Setting. • • . • •••••••.• Natural Resources • . • . • • • • • Geology, Topography and Soils . • • . Lakes and Rivers • . • •..••• Groundwater Quality • . . . • • . • • . . . . . . Climate • . . • • • • . . • • • . . . .• Population. . . . . • • .••. Population Projection .•.•.. Seasonal Variations . • • • • • • . • • • • • • . Population Characteristics . . • • . • .. Economy • • . . • . • • • • . .•. Employment. • • . • . • • • • • • . ••••• Workforce . . • • . . • . . • . • . . . • Economic Activity by Sector . • . . ••. Construction Activity . • • • • • • • • • • . Regional Economy • . • • . • • • • . • • • • . • . Economic Development Activity . • . • . • • . Neighborhood Characteristics. . . • ....•. Comparative Housing Characteristics •.. Census Block Characteristics • . • . • . . . • . • 15 15 15 15 17 18 18 18 18 20 20 23 24 25 26 27 28 28 29 29 30 IV. Community Facilities . . . . . . . . . Transportation • . • . . . • . • . . . . • . • • . . Roads and Streets . . . . . . . • • . Rail Transportation •.. Lake Transportation . . . • • . • . . . . . . Air Transportation . . •. Public Transportation . • . . . . . .. . Utilities . . . . . . . ....... . Public Sewer Services . • . . ..•....• Public Water Services ..... . Solid Waste . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ... Electricity, Gas, Phone and Cable Television. 33 33 33 35 36 36 36 i 37 37 38 38 39 �-I I I I I I • • •I I I I I v. Recreation •..•••••••••...•.. Recreation Programming . • • • . . •. Recreation Resources . . • . . . .•••. Area-wide Recreational Facilities . . . • •. Recreational Analysis . . . . • .•..... Public Health and Safety . . . • . . . . • . • . Police Department . . . . • • . •.. Fire Department . • • • • •. Other City Services . • . • . . . Medical Facilities • . . . . . •. Area Public Services . • ••.••. Education • • . • • . . . •.. Cultural and Historic Resources Senior Services • • . . • County and State Services 39 39 39 42 44 45 45 45 46 46 46 Land Use and Development Trends • . . . • • Comparison of Land Use, 1962 and 1986 . • • • Land Use Classification . • . . • • . .. Residential Uses • . .•••..•••• Commercial Uses • . . . . . . . •.•• Industrial Uses . . . • ..... . Public and Semi-Public Uses . . . • . . . • . . Parks and Recreation. . • . • • . . •. Development Trends and Future Land Use . . •. 1. Manufacturer's Addition . • . . . . • . 2. Residential Development • • . . • . 3. Neighborhood Shopping ... . 4. City Entrance/Gateway . .. . 5. Central Business District . • • 6. Waterfront/Marine Areas •.. 7. Industrial Expansion . • • • . •.... Cooperation with Pere Marquette Township. 51 51 51 51 54 55 55 56 56 56 57 57 57 58 58 59 59 Epilogue • 47 47 48 49 61 Appendices Appendix A. Funding Resources Local Resources • . • . • . . State and Federal Resources • • . Private Initiatives . • . . . 63 63 63 64 Appendix B. Tables and Figures Table 10 . Table 11 . Table 12 Table 13 . Figure XII 65 66 Appendix C. Community. Survey Form . . . Survey Results • . . . 71 73 67 67 68 69 77 ii �LIST OF TABLES Table II II II 2 3 4 -I 5 6 7 8 9 10 I I I 12 I I I I I I I Population Change, 1940-1980 Mason County, Cities, and Selected Townships . • • Ludington and Mason County Population Changes Compared to Other Cities and Counties in West Michigan ••.•••• Population Projections Ludington and Mason County .••• Comparative Socio-Economic Characteristics Household Income in Ludington by Income Level . • . Occupations of Ludington Residents •••••••• Comparative Housing Characteristics, 1980 • • • • . Recreation Analysis . . . . • • • • . . . . • • • • Land Use in Ludington, 1962 and 1986 • . • • • • . Climatological Summary, 1951-1980 • • . •• Building Permits and Valuation City of Ludington, 1980-1986 • • • • • . • . . • • State Equalized Value City of Ludington, 1980-1986 • • • • ••• Population and Housing Characteristics by Census Block Areas, City of Ludington, 1980 ••••. 1 11 13 19 20 21 23 25 29 43 53 66 67 67 68 LIST OF FIGURES Figure I II III IV V VI VII VIII IX X XI XII Location Map • • • • • • • • • • • • . Age-Sex Distribution • • . . . • Mason County Employment Status 1970-1986 Labor Force and Unemployment Mason County Employment by Sector, 1980-1986 • Ludington Employment by Sector, 1980 .•• Census Block Map • • . • . . • • • • • • . • . • • Street Map • • • . . • • . • . • • Recreation Facilities Map . • . • Area-Wide Recreational Facilities Present Land Use Map • . • . • • Future Land Use Map . • • . • . . Pere Marquette Charter Township Future Land Use Plan Map . . • . • I I 19 iii 16 22 24 26 27 31 34 40 41 52 62 69 �I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I CITY OF LUDINGTON 201 S . WILLIAM STREET DEAN M . ANDERSON , MAYOR GERALD J . RICHARDS . CITY MANAGER P . O . BOX 310 GERRY PEHRSON KLAFT . CITY CLERK LUDINGTON. MICHIGAN 49431 PHONE 616 / 845 - 6237 JOHN A . VILLA . TREASURER Motion by Commissioner Martin Page, seconded by Commissioner Bob Shaw, to adopt the new Comprehensive Plan with a request that the City Commission also review the new Plan for adoption. Motion carried unanimously. (June 2, 1987) Motion by Commissioner Ereon, seconded by Commissioner Scott, that the Comprehensive Plan, previously adopted by the Ludington Planning Commission, which updates the City of Ludington Master Plan, be adopted. Motion carried. (June 8, 1987) iv �I I 'I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I. INTRODUCTION Plans are designed to control change--to stimulate it and to give it direction. Ludington's Comprehensive Plan represents the community's desire to deal with anticipated changes in the city's growth. The plan does not try to draw an ideal map of the future. Rather, it approaches change as a bundle of related processes that must be coordinated to achieve desirable ends. The city has not produced a master plan since 1964. That plan is essentially a map of the ideal city as projected twenty-three years -ago. Many features of that map are impractical and irrelevant today. One feature, however--the site of a municipal marina--is an important reality in the Ludington of 1987. The successful operation of the present marina has in turn become a factor in planning today. Change always generates further change. The ideal city always eludes the planner's grasp. Planning itself becomes one of the processes in the bundle that requires coordination. During the past few years, the people of Ludington have seen several areas of the city where some kind of change--good or bad--seemed imminent. The marina, for example, seemed a potentially destructive force to the residential neighborhood it bordered. A neighborhood plan was formulated and adopted which forestalled undesirable change. The downtown area--the Central Business District--is a great concern to all citizens and especially to downtown businessmen. Certain changes threaten the appearance and functioning of the CBD: the design and construction of buildings, signs, traffic patterns and flow, and building tenancy. In order to direct change in these elements, the City Commission has adopted a plan which the Downtown Development Authority drafted with professional planning assistance. One of Ludington's critical areas is the Pere Marquette Lake waterfront. Traditionally, the waterfront has been devoted to industrial use. Changes in industry and changes in recreational uses of the environment have given the waterfront a completely different significance. The City Commission engaged a professional planner to formulate a plan for the waterfront, and has adopted the resulting plan. Obviously, the people of Ludington recognize that changes are inevitable and that thoughtful, practical planning for change is necessary. A survey of citizen opinion about Ludington conducted by the Planning Commission and the Downtown Development Authority reached a random sample of 465 households. The excellent return rate (43.7 percent) shows great interest in and concern about the future of the city. The following cluster of responses to survey questions deserves thoughtful consideration by anyone planning the city's future: 1 �1. The best thing about living in Ludington is its small-town atmosphere (77.3 percent). 2. Ludington's worst problem is unemployment (86.7 percent). 3. Fire protection is rated "high" rather than "fair" or "poor" (91.67 percent). Less than 6 percent rate city services "poor" (police, water, sewer, snow removal, park maintenance). 4. Parking downtown is "easy" (89.6 percent). 5. Ludington needs more industrial development (92.79 percent). 6. The city should use tax incentives to attract new industry (83.18 percent). The people of Ludington want the city to maintain its atmosphere of a small town on the Lake Michigan shore (73.21 percent like its proximity to the big lake) with good city services and comfortably "easy" living conditions. But at the same time, the great majority of citizens are concerned about the high rate of unemployment. Presumably they would risk giving up the small-town atmosphere in order to increase the city's industrial base. They would even invest tax dollars in this cause. In view of this ambivalence, a plan for Ludington's future must accept one of the following general policies: 1. Preserve the small-town atmosphere at all costs. 2. Pursue a radical change in industrial development and risk losing the small-town atmosphere. 3. Find a compromise position that preserves the valued elements of the small-town atmosphere while it encourages industrial development. The Planning Commission believes that Ludington should adopt the third policy option. This Comprehensive Plan is designed to achieve that goal. I r This plan does not show how Ludington should look in twenty years. Rather, it outlines a series of goals, policies, and implementation techniques to give direction to those charged with overseeing specific plans. These goals and policies are presented first in the plan. Following that section, background material is presented--the context in which the goals and policies are to be considered. Present and future land use maps show graphically_what e~ists, ~nd what should be changed. The plan concludes with a discussion of possibilities for some particular areas in the city. Supporting material in £urther detail may be found in the appendix. Also in the appendix is a copy of the community survey and the tabulated results. 2 I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I �If this plan is to be effective in providing a context for future change in Ludington, it must be kept up to date. It should be amended from time to time as circumstances require, and it should be carefully reviewed in its entirety at no more than five-year intervals. The following plans for particular parts of the city are incorporated into this Comprehensive Plan: Waterfront Master Plan (WBDC, 1986); Central Business District Master Plan (WBDC, 1986); Cartier Park: A Study of Market & Development (Tom Sturr, 1986); and Recreational Development Plan of Ludington (City of Ludington, 1984; and Recreation Plan Update (1986) The Future Land Use Map developed by the Planning Commission supersedes any other maps in any plan, and the Comprehensive Plan supersedes any other plan, in case of conflict or inconsistency. I I I I I I I I I I r I 3 �f I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I J f II. GOALS, POLICIES, AND IMPLEMENTATION TECHNIQUES ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT GOAL: To increase the availability of jobs for area residents through actions and policies that promote the expansion of existing industries and businesses and the attraction of new industries and commercial activity to the city. POLICIES IMPLEMENTATION TECHNIQUES A. 1. Insu~e availability of appropriate sites. 2. Cooperate with industrial and business personnel in dealing with potential problems involved with expansion. · 3. Phase out nonconforming residential uses on Dowland Street to provide area for expansion of industries located there. 4. Require screening between industrial/commercial uses and neighboring residential uses on district boundaries or where mixed uses exist. 5. Continue to make use of P.A. 198 to encourage expansion of existing industries as well as attraction of new plants. 1. Capitalize on the strengths of the area, including the high quality of life, and, where applicable, the ferry service, excellent deep port, good rail service, and direct access to US 31 and us 10. 2. Cooperate with Pere Marquette Township in B. Provide opportunities for expansion of existing industrial and commercial activities. Continue efforts to attract new industry to locate in the industrial park through the Economic Development Corporation (EDC), Ludington Economic Development Corporation (LEDCOR), Manistee-Mason Community Growth Alliance (CGA), Chamber of Commerce. 5 �developing contiguous land in the industrial park and surrounding township land. 3. c. D. Exploit the potential for 1. reuse for wholesale or light industry uses of vacant industrial buildings outside the industrial park, particularly on the north side of the city (Manufacturers Addition). Extend Fourth Street into the industrial park. Make road improvements in the north area, e.g., abandon rights-of-way for Delia and Emily Streets between Bryant and Longfellow. 2. Explore relocation of the city garage and heavy equipment storage to this area (Manufacturers Addition). Capture a greater share of 1. Michigan's growing visitor trade through further development of facilities and 2. expanded promotional activities. Expand public and private marina facilities. Promote development of commercial facilities for marina users. 3. Develop off-season events and activities, e.g., cross-country skiing. 4. Develop a convention/ meeting facility appropriate for this area of the state; coordinate with West Shore Community College. 5. Upgrade Cartier Park according to plan to expand services to visitors, as well as recreational opportunities for residents. HOUSING GOAL: To increase the availability and accessibility of housing in the city through policies and actions that protect and enhance the quality of existing residential neighborhoods and promote the development of new housing to serve a variety of needs and preferences. 6 I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I -I I I �I r POLICIES IMPLEMENTATION TECHNIQUES A. 1. Utilize resources from the state to provide incentives for preservation or restoration of historic or architecturally significant dwellings. 2. Continue to participate in available state and federal programs which provide assistance to homeowners for rehabilitation of existing dwellings. 3. Develop a program to disseminate information concerning the minimum standards for housing and maintenance which the city uses; emphasize how these standards apply to existing housing units, particularly multifamily units. I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I B. Maintain and rehabilitate existing housing where practicable. Provide opportunities for 1. the construction of a variety of housing types in the city: single-family homes and multi-family units; moderately 2. priced homes and luxury apartments; year-round, seasonal, and retirement homes. f 7 Designate specific areas of the city for future residential use. Promote new design concepts which take advantage of energysaving technology. 3. Encourage construction of additional housing units that meet the particular needs of low- and moderate-income residents and the needs of senior citizens. 4. Encourage multi-family housing in areas with adequate land, convenient commercial areas, and adequate transportation. �C. D. Maintain and/or improve environmental quality. Control traffic flow and parking in residential areas. 5. Control conversion of single-family dwellings to two- or multi-family to insure adequate parking, open space, etc. 6. Plan for appropriate new housing in connection with waterfront and marina development. 1. Continue maintenance and/or replacement of street trees, shrubs, and other natural materials. 2. Control home occupations to prevent development into highly visible commercial uses. 3. Enforce existing land-use controls. 4. Prevent the intrusion of nonresidential uses into predominantly residential areas. 1. Discourage through traffic on local residential streets. 2. Institute parking controls on narrow streets. 3. Control traffic flow resulting from large developments by careful placement of access. CENTRAL BUSINESS DISTRICT/COMMERCIAL DEVELOPMENT GOAL: To improve the quality, vitality, and value of the Central Business District and other commercial areas through policies and actions which encourage the prov i sion of a desirable mixture of commercial and residential uses, increase employment opportunities, and strengthen the role of downtown Ludington as a provider of services for the entire region. 8 I I I I I I I I I -I I I I I I I I I �f f I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I IMPLEMENTATION TECHNIQUES POLICIES A. B. c. Make the CBD more accessible 1. and attractive for pedestrians. Increase the convenience shoppers. Improve the appearance of the CBD while conserving the unique character and historic ambience. r 9 Develop an entrance sign and compatible uniform directional signs for the CBD and public facilities. 2. Encourage the improvement of the appearance of the rear of all buildings and make use of the rear entrances where they c~n provide access to parking lots. 3. Initiate aesthetic improvements, including landscaping of parking lots, boulevards where appropriate, and street trees, shrubs, and flowers. 4. Provide benches and/or pedestrian rest areas. 1. Improve parking areas to facilitate traffic flow and provide the maximum number of spaces possible. 2. Remove old foundation remnants to provide more efficient parking, particularly off South James Street. 3. Promote convenience/safety improvements, including street and parking lot lighting. 4. Encourage development of mini-malls: inside access between buildings in a block. 1. Promote cooperation between public and private to take maximum advantage available resources. �2. D. E. Provide a wider range of uses and activities in the CBD. Encourage appropriate development in other commercial areas. 10 Develop recommendations concerning storefront improvements. Priority should be given to maintaining the historic quality of buildings where such exists. i I i I 3. Promote the existing loan prografil to stimulate physical improvements to buildings. 4. Develop consistent sign standards which will enhance the appearance and be aimed primarily at pedestrian traffic. 1. Encourage a wider variety of businesses to the downtown in order to expand activities and minimize vacancies. 2. Promote better use of space in some buildings by permitting residential uses on the second and third story levels through rehabilitation. 3. Encourage professional offices. 1. Discourage strip commercial development. 2. Maintain the existing entrance to the city by controlling encroachment of the commercial strip on East Ludington Avenue. I I 3. Cooperate with Pere Marquette Township on boundary areas. 4. Encourage reuse of existing buildings where parking and other requirements are met. I I I I I �f J J 'I I I I I I I I I r r r r r r 5. Encourage development of marina-supporting services around the bayou. 6. Limit neighborhood commercial areas to uses targeted to the immediate area. TRANSPORTATION GOAL: To promote safe and effective movement for all members of the community, whether pedestrians, motorists, passengers, or cyclists. POLICIES IMPLEMENTATION TECHNIQUES A. 1. Provide sidewalks where they are lacking and mandate future sidewalks with new development. 2. Schedule maintenance and replacement of streets a·nd sidewalks in the capital improvement plan. 1. Revise parking near intersections to allow better visibility, particularly on downtown corners without traffic signals. 2. Change Rowe and Harrison to two-way traffic. 3. Regulate parking on narrow streets to one side only. 4. Establish a directional island at Ludington Avenue and Lakeshore Drive. 1. Support advertising campaigns designed to draw from a wider audience. 2. Explore possible new financing to insure continuation. 1. Strengthen local financing commitments to insure consistent funding sources public transportation. B. c. D. Maintain all streets, curbs, and sidewalks in good condition. Improve traffic flow, saftey, and convenience for motorists. Promote continuation of car ferry service. Continue to provide a high level of Dial-A-Ride bus service to insure necessary ti.on to residents. 11 �E. F. Minimize nonresidential traffic and through traffic in residential and recreation areas. Develop nonmotorized facilities. 2. Expand service to include group trips, special event routes, other. 1. Close Lewis Street between Court Street and Ludington Avenue. 2. Develop formal truck routing with appropriate directional signs on Washington, Bryant, _Dowland, and First Street. 1. Request abandonment of Ludington Northern Railway right-of-way to provide a pedestrian/ bicycle path through the city. 2. Develop a walkway connecting downtown with Pere Marquette Lake waterfront area and Lake Michigan beach at Stearns Park. i RECREATIONAL AND CULTURAL SERVICES GOAL: To insure adequate social, cultural, and recreational opportunities for all residents through policies and actions which promote the availability of necessary social and health services, expand cultural and recreational opportunities, and maintain a high level of government services. IMPLEMENTATION TECHNIQUES POLICIES A. Maintain a wide range of 1. recreational opportunities throughout the city through implementation of the city's 2. Recreational Development Plan. 12 Develop standard soccer fields. Increase playground equipment in neighborhood playgrounds. 3. Continue to maintain existing parks and facilities for maximum use. 4. Establish an indoor ice rink. I I I I I I I I �J f f I I I I I I I I I I I I I I B. c. D. 1. Mandate a public walkway along Marquette Lake as the new marina and other waterfront development occurs. 2. Develop the non-campground area of Cartier Park for passive uses such as nature trails, crosscountry skiing, boat launch, and picnic areas. 1. Pursue state coopera t ion in identification of significant buildings. 2. Provide incentives for preservation and rehabilitation of significant historic structures where desirable and practical. Continue to provide a high 1. level of government services to protect the health, safety, and well-being of all residents. Improve public access to the municipal building so all public meetings can be held there, or provide another community meeting facility. Retain and increase public access, including visual, physical, and recreational access to Lake Michigan, Pere Marquette Lake, and Lincoln Lake. Conserve the unique character and historic atmosphere of significant buildings, both residential and commercial. 2. PHYSICAL ENVIRONMENT GOAL: To preserve and enhance the physical environment through policies and actions which protect desirable natural features and systems and improve community appearance. POLICIES IMPLEMENTATION TECHNIQUES A. 1. Revise the zoning ordinance as necessary to implement this plan. 2. Develop a Capital Improvement Plan. 3. Develop a uniform city sign design for public and informational signs. Maintain an aesthetically pleasant environment by adopting and enforcing municipal ordinances and land use controls. f r Insure continuation of services to senior citizens by providing secure financial support. 13 �B. C. Develop regulations which provide for orderly development of waterfront property, including docks, piers, filling, etc. Control pollution problems as they become identified. 14 1. Implement the Waterfront Master Plan. 2. Develop a waterfront district zone in the zoning ordinance. 3. Explore participation in the National Flood Insurance Program. 1. Monitor sites where groundwater pollution is suspected, and pursue clean-up where possible. 2. Promote regular testing of private wells now being used for drinking water. �r r r I I I I I I I I I I r r III. COMMUNITY CHARACTERISTICS LOCATION AND SETTING Ludington, the county seat of Mason County, is located on Lake Michigan at the mouth of the Pere Marquette River. It has a population of approximately 9,000, with significant increase in the summer. Ludington enjoys a special relationship with Wisconsin and other port communities because of the Michigan-Wisconsin Transportation Company's cross-lake ferry service and the city's excellent harbor facilities. Other transportation routes include the north/south highway US 31, the east/west highway US 10, and the CSX railroad. Ludington's lakeshore and natural resources have attracted development since Michigan's early days. The first immigrants arrived in the late 1840's, and the timber industry developed soon after, with as many as 17 sawmills on the shores of Pere Marquette Lake at one time. Railroads were built, and wood products were shipped by both rail and water. When the lumber industry declined, brine became the primary resource and that has continued to the present day. The earliest settlers planted fruit trees, and the county's orchard and farming industries began to develop. NATURAL RESOURCES The area's natural resources will continue to be a major factor in determining Ludington's future, by influencing the quality of life as well as by providing opportunity for economic development. Geology, Topography, and Soils When Lake Michigan receded to its present general limit many hundred years ago, there remained a layer of glacial drift materials up to several hundred feet in depth with no outcroppings of bedrock. The soils in Ludington and surrounding areas are consequently mainly sandy with alluvial sands found adjacent to the Pere Marquette and Lincoln Rivers. Dune sands predominate in the city. These have slight to moderate limitations for building, depending on slope. The alluvial soils, on the other hand, can pose severe limitations on development due to flooding, ponding, and frost action. The present topography is generally flat, although this is the result of considerable cutting of hills and filling of gulleys since the days of the earliest settlers. The elevation of the city is approximately 590' Mean Sea Level (MSL), with a range of just below that to 640' in the fourth ward. Greater changes in elevation are found outside the city, to the north in Epworth Heights and the sand dune area of Ludington State Park, and to the south in Pere Marquette Township. Lowland areas are along the Pere Marquette River and the shore of Pere Marquette Lake. 15 / �FIGURE l Location Map CAN A DA WISCONSIN "' ~ <f I ..J II Mll..WAUl<l!:1!: ILL/NO/S • GAAV INOIANA 16 OHIO • • • �r r r r r I I I I I I I I I I I I I I Lakes and Rivers Ludington and the surrounding area have significant water resources. Mason County has 32 miles of Lake Michigan shoreline; Ludington shares 1.7 miles of this with over 40 percent accessible to the public. Lincoln Lake and Lincoln River divide the city on the north from Hamlin Township. Pere Marquette Lake provides the sheltered harbor for the Port of Ludington. Pere Marquette Lake offers both recreational and commercial facilities. At least eight public and private marinas are located on or adjacent to the lake. Several dozen charter fishing operations are located there as well. Michigan-Wisconsin Transportation Company, Dow Chemical Company, and Sand Products Corporation regularly use the commercial port facilities. The Port Development Study (Williams and Works, 1982) contains detailed information. The Lake Michigan water level has been rising, and is currently at a record high. The historic seasonal fluctuations of about 1.2 feet (with a low in February and a high in July) appear not to be moving according to schedule. Furthermore, fluctuation extremes keep moving up--the low doesn't reach the lows of preceding years and the highs keep getting higher. This trend is expected to continue for the next few years at least, and the potential for flood damage thus appears to be changing. Historical information suggests that there has never been a serious flood hazard in the city. Ludington received a floodplain map in 1975. In 1977, the city declined to participate in the National Flood Insurance Program, presumably on the basis of historical evidence that no real hazard e·xisted. However, with the current high lake level, and consequently high groundwater level exacerbated by unusually heavy rainfall in September 1986, a number of problems have been created. There have been flooding problems--both residences and businesses--after heavy rains. In addition, charter fishing boats located east of Washington Avenue on the bayou have not been able to get under the bridge at times because of high water. The National Flood Insurance Program was created to provide insurance at more reasonable rates than otherwise available. The city's participation in this program would make it possible for residents to qualify for this insurance. It would also require the city to adopt flood hazard regulations designed to prevent future losses. Potential erosion problems along Lake Michigan and Pere Marquette Lake shores continue. The city has taken measures to correct or prevent erosion on city property, princ i pally around the marina and Loomis Street boat launch site. 17 �Groundwater Quality All residences in the city have access to city water. There is an unidentified number of residents who prefer to use private wells for drinking water. Concern has been expressed about potential polluted groundwater and soils in some areas of the city, for example, at the site of a former plating plant in Manufacturers Addition. Michigan Department of Natural Resources is currently monitoring this site, and there may be others, such as former dumping sites, that could present problems. Establishing responsibility for cleanup is the main hurdle in dealing with these problems; that - process itself has proven to be both protracted and confused. Climate Ludington's climate is modified by Lake Michigan. Spring and early summer temperatures tend to be cooler than would be expected for this latitude. Frost and initial snow periods in the fall are delayed as well. Ludington experiences fewer prolonged periods of hot, humid weather or extreme cold. The difference between the average summer and average winter temperatures is about 51 F. Snowfall is slightly higher than inland averages in Mason County. Table 10 in the appendix summarizes the climate data from 1951 to 1980. POPULATION Ludington's population has remained fairly stable since 1970 at around 9,000. This is based on an estimate of current population which is sl~ghtly higher than the 1980 census figure. (See Waterfront Master Plan). In contrast, the surrounding townships and the county have shown increases in the same period. Table 1 shows the details. A 1983 survey of Pere Marquette residents indicated that 33 percent had moved from the city to the township. Census information for the surrounding townships, although less specific, seems to confirm this trend. The same thing has been happening in other West Michigan cities and counties as can be seen in Table 2. Population Projections Population projections are rough estimates only, and can vary a great deal. The West Michigan Regional Planning Commission (WMRPC) has estimated that the population of the city will increase by 10.2 percent by 1990 and another 11.7 percent by 2000. Donnelley and Associates, a private industrial rating · organization, projects a decrease of 11 percent in the population of the county for 1990. Federal government figures show a 10-year annualized decrease of about 3.5 percent. 18 �TABLE 1 Population Change, 1940-1980 Mason County, Cities, and Selected Townships f r I I I r 1940 1950 Percent Change 1940-1950 19,378 20,474 + 5.7 21,929 + 7. I 8,701 I, 162 9,506 I, 141 - + 9.3 I. 7 9,421 1,245 .9 + 9.0 - 9,021 I ,202 - 4.2 - 3.5 8,937 I ,241 - .9 + 3.2 833 584 777 804 887 930 1,032 739 + 6.5 +59.2 +32.8 - 8.1 1,060 1,468 1,513 780 +19.5 +57.8 +46.4 + 5.5 1,278 I, 778 I ,846 863 +20.6 +21. I +22.0 +10.6 I ,556 2,616 2,068 I, 170 +21 .8 +47. I +12.0 +35.6 Governmental Unit Mason County Ludington Scottvi I le Townships Amber Haml In Pere Marquette Victory SOURCE: 1960 Percent Change 1950-1960 1970 Percent Change 1960-1970 1980 Percent Change 1970-1980 22,612 + 3. I 26,365 +16.6 U.S. Census. I I TABLE 2 Ludington and Mason County Population Changes Compared to Other Cities and Counties in West Michigan 1960 1980 1970 I I I I f r f J Governmental Unit Population Population 9,421 8,324 I, 146 11,066 6,149 9,021 7,723 I, 154 I I ,844 6,471 21,929 19,042 16,547 98,719 48,395 22,612 20,393 17,984 128,181 56,173 Percent Change 1960-1970 Population Percent Change 1970-1980 4.2 7-2 .7 7.0 5.2 8,937 7,566 I ,424 11,763 5,943 .9 - 2.0 +23.4 - .7 - 8 .2 + 3. I + 7. I + 8.7 +29.8 +16.1 26,365 23,019 22,002 157,174 66,814 +16.6 +12.9 +22.3 +22.6 +18. 9 CITY Ludington Manistee Pentwater Grand Haven South Haven + + + - COUNTY Mason Manistee Oceana Ottawa VanBuren SOURCE: U.S. Census, 1980. 19 �What is the explanation for this wide disparity? The last two estimates are based on traditional population, birth/death, and migration rates. WMRPC added employment and housing trends, which are more optimistic. New housing starts since 1980, suggest some growth. When average household sizes are combined with the number of new dwelling units, the figures suggest that an additional 300 people may have moved into the city. If economic activity continues to increase, that will have an effect on the population total as well. (Michigan Department of Management and Budget projects a 17.6 percent increase in economic growth in Mason County from 1980 to 2000.) The small percentage increases in population shown in Table 3 still do not contradict the perception of a stable population. TABLE 3 Population Projections Ludington and Mason County 1980 Ludington Mason County SOURCE: 8,937 26,365 Percent Change 1970-1980 - .9 16.6 1990 Estimate 8,990 28,300 Percent Change 1980-1990 2000 Estimate Percent Change 1980-2000 .5 7-3 9,170 31,100 3.8 17.6 U.S. Census, 1980; Mason County Projections, Michigan Department of Management and Budget; Ludington Projections, West Michigan Regional Planning Commission, 1986. Seasonal Variations Ludington and Mason County have significant seasonal fluctuations in population. Michigan Department of Natural Resources estimates the seasonally adjusted figure for Ludington's 1980 census population to be 9,259, or about 4 percent over the actual population. For Mason County, the adjustment factor is 35 percent or 35,593 people. This includes Epworth Heights, which reports a seasonal population increase of as many as 4,000 over the summer months. (See Mason Coun t y Solid Waste Plan, 1986, and RERC report in WBDC Waterfront Master Plan.) Population Characteristics The 1980 census provides a great deal of information about population characteristics. For example, only 2.5 percent of Ludington's population is minority (.5 percent black, 1.5 percent Spanish, .5 percent other including Korean and Native American). 20 I I • •~ -~ -~ - ~ ~ ~ �r r r r r I Ninety-six percent speak only English at home. Seventy-nine percent were born in Michigan, 1.9 percent were born in other countries, and the remainder in other areas of the United States. More than half had lived in the same home for the previous five years (52.6 percent), 28 percent had lived in the county five years before, and only 6 percent had lived out of the state or abroad in 1975. These latter figures emphasize the stability of Ludington's population. Table 4 compares education, residence, and income characteristics of Ludington's residents with the residents of Manistee, Mason and Manistee Counties, and other areas in 1980. Almost 66 percent of Ludington residents over 25 years of age were high school graduates; 17.5 percent didn't go to high school. Fourteen percent had some college education and 11 percent had graduated from a four-year college or had taken post-graduate work. TABLE 4 Comparative Socio-Economic Characteristics I I I I f ' f I f f r Education 1975 Residence Birth Place 1980 Median Income Percent Same Residence 1980 Percent Different Residence Same County 1980 Percent Born In Michigan Household Percent Faml I !es Below Povert y Level Percent High School Graduate Percent College Graduate Ludington 65.7 II .O 53 28 79 $13,415 $16,839 9.0 Mason County 66.1 10.0 58 23 81 14,410 16,824 9.5 Manistee Manistee County 64.8 62.2 II .o 9.1 63 65 26 19 86 84 13,789 14,351 18,502 17,281 7.2 8.2 Communities Out2 side Urban Areas 69.3 13.4 52 27 77 16,163 19,476 1.2 Michigan 69.0 14.3 56 26 72 19,223 22,197 8.2 Governmental Unit Faml ly "Family" does not include single-person households. 2 SOURCE: Places of 2,500 to 10,000 population outside of urbanized areas. U.S. Census, 1980. Age-sex distributions are important considerations in planning for housing, recreation, senior citizen needs, schools, etc. Figure II shows age-sex distributions graphically for Ludington, 21 I �FIGURE II Age-Sex Distribution LUDINGTON . 1980 - KAI.! FEMALE [ I [ [ I [( I [ [ [ I I 7 5 PLUS )) JJ I )I II I )I ]] )I] ]] )I Jl]) JJ ] ]] ll II I I I (I 70 TO 7 4 l)) JJ J )J JJ]] l 2.8% 2.01 2.41 2.5. 2.6% 2.6% ([([((([((( 65 TO [ I( I I [II I( I 60 TO [ [ I( [ [ II 111 [ 55 TO I [ [ [ I I [ I [ [ [ [ 50 TO [II I [ [ I I I I 45 TO [(l((ll[l( 40 TO ([ll([I((([ 35 TO I I [ I [ I (I [ I [ I [ I 30 TO I I I I I I I I I I I I [I I I I 25 TO [ I ( l [ I [ I l I I I I I I I I I 20 TO [ [ [ I [ [ [ [ [ [ [ [ [ [ [ [ [ 15 TO [ I [ [II [ [ [II I [ I [ I 10 TO 1([[[11111111([ 5 TO [[[[[[[[[[([[I[ 0 TO 2.1% 2.2. 2.41 3.01 "3.8% 3.9% 3.8% 3.6% 3.21 3.21 69]]]]])]])]]]])] 64 ll l])]] ]) ]] ll l 59]]]])]]])))))] 54 JJJJ ll Jl JJ ll 49 11 JJ I)] 1l 44)]]]]]]11111 39]]])]])))1 3411111111111 ll 29 1111)I1II1111J1111 24 I 1111 I I 11 I I I I I I J I I 11 I 19 11!]IIIJI11111111111 14 11 J Jl ll l l ll Ill JI 9))))))11))))))] 4 lJlJ))JllllJlJJI 6.3% 2.8% 3.2% 3.0% 3.0% 2.7% 2.0% 2.6% 2.3% 2.8% 4.0% 4.5% ,•• 3% 3.4% 3.4% 3.6% • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • AGE GROUPS • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • MASON COUNTY - 1980 FEMALE MALE 2. 3% 1.8% 2.41 2. 6% 2.6% 2. 6% 2.3% 2. 6% 2.8% 3.51 3. 9% 3 • 9I 4. 5I 4.0x 3.6% 3. 6% I [ I I [ I I I I I[ ll l ( 7 5 11((1[((([(70 [([[[[(([[(([[(( 65 [ I I [ I I I I I [II I I I I I 60 ([([[[[[[1[[[([([55 I I I [ I I I ! I!! ! I I! I! 50 I [ [ [!I I I [ [ [ I [ [ I 45 [ [ [ [ [ [ [ [ [ [ [ [ [ [ [ [ { 40 [I! I [II! [ I [ I [ [ I [ I [ I 35 [[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[([[[[[[ 30 [ I [( [ I [ [ [ [ [ [ I [ [ I [ I( [ [ [ [ [ I 25 [ [ [ [ [ [ [ [ I [ ( [ [ [ [ [ [ I [ [ [ I( I I 20 l I ([ [ I I [ (IC! I CI I [ I ([ I [II I I I I (I 15 CI I I [ I [II I I I I I [II I [II I I I I I I 10 [[[[[[[[[[[([[[[[([[[[[{ 5 I [ [ [ [ [ I ( [ {[ [ [ [ [ [ [ [ [ [ I ( [ I o PLUS TO 74 TO 69 TO 64 TO 59 J J )) ll 11 11 Jl 1 111 11 I 11 111 1 lJ])ll])lJ]lJ lJ]))])JlllJ]lJJ] 1 I 1 I 1111 1111 1111 l 11 lJlJ]lJlllJ]l]])l]lJ TO 54 TO 49 TO 44 TO 39 TO 34 TO 29 TO 24 TO 19 TO 14 TO 9 TO 4 1111111II111111 111111111 ] 11)]) II l ll ll ll ll ll 1111111 lJlJ]ll]lllJJ]]]]]lJl 11 Jl 11 lJ lJ J 11 11lJ1111 lJ)) ll Jll Jll J ll 111 J11111 11 l 11 1 111111111 J 11 11 11111111 ll ll 111 1111111 ll l 1 )I 1 I )I 1)I11I111 lJllll))]]lJll]]]]lJ])] 1111))]] 111 ll 1 ll 11 l ll J 11 ll l 1ll JJ 1ll 1lJ I lJ 3.8% 2.0% 2.6% 2.9% 3.0% 2.7% 2.2% 2.6% 2.8% 3.2% 3.8% 4.0% 4.4% 3.91 3.5% 3.6% •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••• AGE GROUPS ••••••••••••••••••••••••••••• MICHIGAN l. 2I 0.9% 1.4I l. 7% 2.4% 2. 21 2.0% 2.5% 2.6% 3.3% 3.8% 4.21 4.3% 3.9% 3. 5% J. 3% - 1980 FEMALE MALE [ [ [ [ [ [ ([ ([[[[[ [ [ [( [ [ [ [ [ [[[[I I [[ [[I [ [[[[[[[([[[[[[[[ [[ [ [ [ [ [ [[ [ [ [ [ ([ ([[[[[[{[[[([[ [([[[{[[(((([([[[ l!!lllllllllll[!ll [[[[([[[[[([[[[[[[[[[I [[[(([[[[[[[[[([[[[[([[[[[ [I [ ( ( I [ [ [ [[ [ [ [ ( [ [ [ [ [ [ { I ( [ [ [ [ [ [[([([([[[[[([[[((([[[([[[[[(( ([{[[[({[[[[[([[[[[([([[[[{ I [ [ ( [ [ I [ [ [ [ I ( ( [ ( ( ([ [ [ [ [ [ ( [ [ [ [ [ [ ( [ [ ( [ [ [ [ [ [ [ [ ! [I [ 7 5 PLUS ll I lJ l 11 l l l I I I 70TO74111)]]])] 65 TO 69 111 I Ill )Ill 60 TO 64 ll l ll l ll l ll ll 55 TO 59 ]]JlJ]lJ]lJ]]Jl] 50 TO 54 1111] ] ] ]] ] ] ]] 11 J 45 TO 49 ]l]]]]l]]Jl]]lJ 40 TO 44 lllllllllll1111 35 TO 39 llllllllllllllllll 30 TO 34 lJlJlJ]lJ]l]]]]Jl]Jl]J] 25 TO 29 ]lJ])]J]J]]lJ]l]]]])J]]]]J 20 TO 24 1111lJl111111 l 1 Jl ll ll l J ll ll J J 15 TO 19 lJ]J]JJ]])]]J])]]])]))]Jl]JJ] 10 TO 14 ]]JJ]J]]J]lJJ])]]]J]]]J)] 5 TO 9 l 111 ll Ill Jl 1111 JI 1 ll]] 1 o TO 4 11 ll l l ll 1I l I ll I 11 Jl l 1l • • • • • • • • • • • • • •••••••••• , ••• ,, . AGE GROUPS • • • • • • • • • • • • ••• • •••• , •••••••• SOURCE: U.S. Census, 1980 22 2.1% 1.3% 1.6% 2.0% 2.3% 2.3% 2.2% 2.2% 2.7% 3.4% 3.8% 4.3% 4.2% 3.7% 3.3% 3.2% �r r r r r I I I I I I I I I I I I I I Mason County, an6 Michigan. Twenty-five percent of Ludington's population is 60 or over, compared with 12.2 percent in the state. As could be expected, a high proportion of these older residents are women. Mason County's percentage who are 60 or older is 20.4. Another way of illustrating this, though not so dramatic, is to compare the median age of Ludington residents (34.6 years) with Mason County (32.3) and Michigan (28.8). Table 5 shows the income range in Ludington with the number and percentage of households in each classification. Percentages are estimated for 1984 and 1990. The median household income in 1980 was $13,415; median family income was $16,839. "Family income" counts _only family households; "household income" includes single-person households as well as families. TABLE 5 Household Income in Ludington by Income Level Estimated Actual 1984 1990 Percent of Total Percent of Total Percent of Total 28. I 22.8 9.4 18.3 26.6 12.7 4.1 .4 .4 7.3 14.6 32-4 16.9 4.9 .7 .4 16.9 5.4 10.9 32.0 25.5 7.4 I .o .7 1980 Income Level s 0 - S 7,499 7,500 10,000 15,000 25,000 35,000 50,000 75,000+ 9,999 14,999 24,999 34,999 49,999 74,999 Number 1,035 347 673 980 469 151 14 15 * Household Income Includes single-person households. SOURCE: Donnelley Demographic Associates, 1985. ECONOMY Ludington's economy is still tied to its natural resources. The chemical industry developed from the brine deposits; transportation is tied to the natural harbor; and the tourist industry is linked to the wide range of natural amenities which the area offers. However, changes in state and national--even international--markets have begun to have a negative impact on Ludington's economy. Manufacturing firms have clo~ed, or slowed 23 �significantly because their products are no longer in demand. Shipping on the Great Lakes continues to decline, decreasing Ludington's importance as a port. Employment Much of the statistical information on employment is available only at the county level. Michigan Employment Security Commission (MESC), the primary source for this information, has used a formula to estimate a city's share of the county's employment. In 1985, MESC "adjusted" that formula, then recalculated 1985 figures. So it is possible to have two sets of figur~s for 1985--one using the old formula, and one using the new; figures derived using the new formula cannot be reasonably compared to those of previous years. Figure III shows numbers employed and unemployed and unemployment rates for Ludington and Mason County from 1970 to the present. MESC suggests that it is appropriate to expect that the unemployment rate will be a little lower in the city than in the county. FIGURE III Mason County Employment Status 1970-1986 Labor Force and Unemployment (Annual Average) Thousands 14 , - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - , 12 10 8 - --- - -- -- ---- - - ····---···---·- ·-·· - - - - ·-- - -·· - ·- -·- -· - - --· .. - - - - - - - ·- - · - - ··- - -· - 6 - ---- - ·-- -· - ·--· - ·- -·- ·- ·--·---- - -- ·-·--- - -· - 4 ·-··- - -· - .- ·-· --·· -- .- - - .. ·-- --··- --·-··- -- ·-· -. --•·- ·- ·- -. - ·-··· -····- - - -·· - - -·- -· ·-·• ... .. - - - - -. -·· -- ·- - · 2 -·· -- -· - .. -- - - ··-·-·· ·--···- ·-·· -- - - ------·- -··- ·- --·-·-·- - ·- - ---·--- -·--· - ~ -· - . . -- - - - -- -·-·-·-- -· - - · -- 0'---'-----'----'---'----'----'--~-......__ __.__......__......__......__..___..___.,___.,___.__. 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 78 77 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 · year Source: MESC, 1986 Labor Force -+- Unemployment Seasonal fluctuation in .employment is a significant factor in the county, reflecting the impacts of the agricultural industry and tourist activity. Employment is generally highest in August and 24 ~ - ~ • • �r r r I I I I I I I I I I I I I lowest in February and March. In 1986, the unemployment rate in the county ranged from a low of 10.4 to a high of 19.6. Workforce "Workforce" identifies how Ludington residents are employed, and adds another dimension to employment statistics. Table 6 shows 1980 census information about employed residents over 16 years of age. The two largest classifications of workers were production personnel and professional/administrative personnel; sales and service were each about half that of these two classifications. This is ordinarily considered to be a well-balanced distribution. However, this apparent balance depends to large extent on two major employers (over 300) in separate sectors: · Dow Chemical Company in the industrial sector, and Memorial Medical Center in the service secto~. One other major employer in Ludington, other than the school d~strict and county government, is Great Lakes Castings (over 100). Firms with 50-100 employees are Brill Manufacturing Company, LDI, Inc., Metalworks, Inc., Atkinson Manufacturing Company, Whitehall Industries, and Kaines Manufacturing Company (EDC, February 1987). TABLE 6 Occupations of Ludington Residents Occupational Classification Managerial/Executive Professional Technical Sales Administrative Support Services Precision Production Machine Operators Transportation Other Labor Others TOTAL SOURCE: U.S. Census, 1980. 25 I Number Percent 264 417 82 397 527 419 470 466 207 191 7.7 12.l 2.4 11.5 15.3 12.2 13.6 13.5 6.0 5.5 4 .1 3,444 99.9 �FIGURE IV Mason County Employment by Sector 1980-1986 T·:..:.ho:.u:.:s:.::a:_n..:d.:.s_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ 7 ,o~ -- 8 •·. .. ·••· .. . ... ···•· .. ... ...... ... ··- ..... ···- ··••· ... _··- _... -··· ·- -·- ·•-· ..... .... 4 2 0 1980 - 1981 Total Emp. 1983 1982 ~ Year I/-':,,'' ! Manuf. 1984 1985 Nonmanuf . m 1986 Govt . Source: MESC, 1986 Economic Activity by Sector As employment trends show, manufacturing activity in Mason County has decreased. Employment in the nondurable sector has increased in actual numbers, although not enough to make up for the sharp declines in durable manufacturing. According to 1982 figures, wholesale trade activity in Ludington was growing while retail trade activity was declining. A number of smaller establishments had closed, with larger retailers taking up the slack. This trend was occurring in surrounding counties as well. More recently, the downtown area in particular has experienced considerable turnover in retail establishments. Figures IV and v show employment by sector in Mason County and Ludington. The growth in service industries indicated in the 1982 figures reflected a diversifying economy: a movement away from manufacturing, and stable growth in the tourist and recreation areas. Census information indicated that recreation/amusement and health services were showing the most significant growth. 26 -ll ll ll ll II II ~ II �I I I I I I I I r r r r r r r FIGURE V Ludington Employment by Sector, 1980 Government 19.1% Durable Manuf. 20.1% Retail Trade 17.5% Wholes. Trade 2.6% Fin/Insur /Real Es 3.996 Construction 4. 7% Services 12. 2% Nondur. Manuf. 12.1% U. S. Census, 1980 Construction Activity Construction activity is a final criterion to consider in reviewing the city's economy. Construction activity accounts for about 4 percent of the county's labor force, down by almost 25 percent from 1980, the highest and most recent construction boom period. Table 11 in the appendix shows the number and value of building permits issued in Ludington from 1980 to 1986. Footnotes to the table identify major construction projects in this seven-year period; although these projects in themselves have had significant impact on the economy, it is not possible to discern any real trends. However, there appears to be an upswing in the last two years in nonresidential additions, reflecting several recent industrial expansions. State Equalized Value (SEV) provides an indication of the impact of construction activity. Table 12 in the Appendix shows SEV for Ludington from 19880 to 1986. The figures seem to show an increase in dollars (almost 33 percent). However, in terms of constant dollars which take inflation into consideration, there is a decrease of about 3 percent from 1980 to 1984. Since 1984, SEV has kept pace with, and even exceeded slightly, the annual inflation levels. r r Trans & Util. 7.5% 27 �Regional Economy Mason, Lake, and Manistee counties have faced a long period of high unemployment, an actual decline in the number of jobs, and stagnant income growth. For the past several years, the area's unemployment rate has been over 1.5 times the national average. The area lost jobs in all three major nonagricultural employment categories: manufacturing, nonmanufacturing, and government. Although the three-county area has not experienced a single major crisis, it is suffering serious economic adjustment problems resulting from severe changes in economic conditions. Economic Development Activity Ludington is actively pursuing industrial expansion. The city developed the industrial park (a State of Michigan Certified Industrial Park) located in the southeast portion of the city in 1974. The park has access to US 31 off First and Sixth Streets and has full utility services. The industrial park has attracted several new industries and is showing strong promise. It is estimated that the park has about five years' supply of industrial land at the present development rate. Significant efforts are being made to locate other industries in thi~ area by Mason County Economic Development Corporation (EDC), a financial packaging agency for development in the county; Ludington Area Economic Development Corporation (LEDCOR), a marketing and promotional agency which facilitates development; Mason-Manistee Community Growth Alliance (CGA), an agency which coordinates development activities in the two counties and facilitates communication with the Michigan Department of Commerce; Downtown Development Authority (ODA); Chamber of Commerce; and others. Approximately 125-130 new jobs have been created in the city since 1984. Slightly more than half of these are in new industries, the balance were created by expansion of existing industries. Research for the Waterfront Master Plan reports limited potential for expanding general retail activity. However, a market is identified for some harbor-oriented retail uses, including eating and drinking establishments, which do not compete with downtown businesses. That report also points out that recreational boating is currently the fastest growing activity in western Michigan. Expansion of marina facilities would help to meet what appears to be an almost inexhaustible demand, and would likely generate demand for other facilities: hotel/motel, restaurants, service outlets for boats, etc. Tourism and recreation have strong potential for Ludington. The natural resources of the lakes, harbor, nearby state park and forest lands, as well as extension of the US 31 freeway will continue to draw visitor activity. The ferry brings a 28 I I • • • • • • • • • • • • •~ �r I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I significant number of visitors to the city who are important to the motel operators as well as other retailers. Although the future of the cross-lake ferry service is not settled, expanded marina facilities could serve to create demands for overnight accommodations as well as other services. RERC also suggests that potential exists for a convention/meeting center. Such a center, particularly if tied to West Shore Community College activities could generate off-season activity as well. Although much general retail activity has moved to the strip commercial areas outside of the city, a concerted effort to revitalize the downtown and develop the waterfront area may be able to turn that around. Both the downtown and the waterfront areas can provide unique opportunities for development. NEIGHBORHOOD CHARACTERISTICS Ludington is a mature community. Half of its housing stock is at least 40 years old and most of the residential areas of the city are developed. Comparative Housing Characteristics As Table 7 shows, Ludington has a much older housing stock than the county or the state, and its value is a little less, primarily because of age. The city also has a higher percentage of renter-occupied units. The city's vacancy rate is much lower than the county's or the state's. The county's high rate includes a number of seasonal homes which were generally vacant when the 1980 census was taken in April. TABLE 7 Comparative Housing Characteristics, 1980 Ludington Pere Marquette Township Mason County Michigan 3,821 777 13,228 3,589,912 3,576 6.4 2,303 64.4 1,273 35.6 718 7.6 648 90.2 70 9.8 9,693 26. 7 7,601 78.4 2,092 21 .6 3,195,213 II .O 2,321,883 72.7 873,330 27.3 Median Value, Owner-Occupied $28,700 $42,900 S29,900 S39,000 Median Rent, Renter-Occupied s s s s Characteristic TOTAL HOUSING UNITS Occupied Units Percent Vacant Owner-Occupied Percent Owner-Occupied Renter-Occupied Percent Renter-Occupied 153 141 152 197 Year Structure Sulit Percent 1970-1980 Percent 1939 or before II. 7 55.9 31 .4 18.5 23.1 39.0 22.1 27.6 Percent Lacking Complete Plumbing 2.0 N/A 3.2 1.8 SOURCE: U.S. Census of Housing, 1980 29 �Census Block Characteristics The 1980 census divided the city into 13 "block numbering areas." Since these areas do not conform to any "neighborhood" divisions in the conventional sense, they will be referred to here simply as "census areas." Figure VI shows the lines drawn in this census process. Area 13 was designated "institutional" and apparently included the Coast Guard station and perhaps persons on boats in the harbor. (See Table 13 in the appendix for complete statistics for each area.) Unlike larger urban areas, specific identifiable neighborhoods have not generally been recognized in the city. Most "neighborhoods" tend either to be around an elementary school or conform to city ward boundaries. But even these are very arbitrary. The census areas seem to be the most useful units to describe the community's characteristics. Area #3 is the most populated, with 16 percent of the city's total; it also has the largest number of children, with 15 percent of the city's under 18-year-olds. Census areas #10 and #11 also have high numbers under 18 years, with 13 percent each of the city's population. These three areas together have 41 percent of the city's population under 18 years. Conversely, areas #6 and #7 have the highest numbers of senior citizens--36 percent of those over 65 years of age in the city (Longfellow Towers is in area #6). Renter-occupied housing is highest in #6, 21 percent of the city's total. Census area #1 shows the highest value for owner-occupied homes, and the lowest vacancy rate. This area, particularly north of Tinkham, is the most recently developed area of the city with the newest housing. Census area #8 has the lowest housing values and next to the lowest market rental values. It also has the highest rental occupancy rates and vacancy rates. This area is intermixed with commercial and industrial uses. Areas #3 and #9 have the highest proportion of overcrowding; #6, #9, and #10 have the highest proportion of units lacking complete plumbing facilities. The age of most housing in the city suggests the need for careful attention to maintenance and rehabilitation; the disprcportionate number of senior citizens raises questions about the need for specialized housing and/or special programs for low-cost rehabilitation and maintenance. Questions about housing on the community survey elicited responses indicating interest in low-income housing (40 percent of those who felt new housing was needed suggested low-income housing; 30 percent favored housing for senior citizens). Almost 25 percent of those responding indicated interest in conventional single-family housing. 30 ■ ■ i i • • • • • �I I I I FIGURE VI Census Block Map l lM:Ot N l ,(IC£ CITY OF LUDINGTON MASTER I I =- PLAN UPDATE z < ~ ... a: .,,r r I I I I I r r r r r "t,. .,._ f"\ G ® s:::. <"I ~ G C) ):,. ~ ... 0 z < ~ X ~~ r r r NOTE: 31 Not to scale. �I I I I I I I I I I I r r r r r r r r IV. COMMUNITY FACILITIES TRANSPORTATION The transportation system includes in addition to the road system, rail, air, lake, and public transportation. Roads and Streets There are three state/federal highways giving access to Ludington. US 10 is the primary entrance to the city from the junction with US 31, which is east of the city in Pere Marquette Township. M-116 extends north from Ludington Avenue along Lakeshore Drive and terminates at Ludington State Park about four miles north. US 10 ends at the Michigan-Wisconsin Transportation Company's crosslake ferry dock. Plans are underway to expand US 10 to five lanes between Ludington and Scottville, in conjunction with the extension of the US 31 freeway through Mason County. The new freeway will provide two exits into Ludington, one along the existing US 31, and the other at US 10 about five miles east of the city or three miles east of the present junction. The completion of this segment of the freeway will have a favorable impact on the city and county by making access from the south easier. At the same time, i t will provide impetus for development outside the city along the freeway. Other entrances to the city are First and Sixth Streets, off US 31--the primary access to the Industrial Park; and Bryant Street and Tinkham Avenue off Jebavy Drive from the north. Ludington's street system is primarily a grid system, with public alleys through many blocks. Local roads are generally in good shape. The city maintains only a small amount of unpaved roadway: Delia south of Longfellow to the railroad tracks, Lavinia between Bryant and Longfellow, Lowell between Rowe and Lavinia, and one block each of Sherman and Seventh from their intersection. The city recently completed a major $1 million-plus reconstruction/paving project which brought almost the entire street system up to current standards. The local system can be classified into the following general categories: (See Figure VII for illustration.) 1. State trunklines: Previously described. 2. Major streets: Facilitate traffic flow in the area and connect local streets to state trunklines. Major street designation is important for identification of truck routes, and location of traffic-producing uses such as multi-family housing and a variety of commercial enterprises. Major streets include all of Washington Avenue, Madison, Tinkham, Bryant, and Sixth Street; most of Rowe, Harrison, Rath, and 33 �FIGURE VII Street Map 8. LINCOLN LAKE = GIi Q ~.,,~,===:II □i jl Mjiiil~---,.;::□ ==; I' .~ ,.... I r-- 1 -7 =G ~ LEGEND - - - - - - County Line _ _ _ _ _ Corporate Limits STREET SYSTEMS - - - - State Trunkline ■ ■ ■ • County Primary aazzazzzzzzz County Local - - - - Major Street Local Street 11 I I 111111111 Adjoining City or Village Street ® City Offices - ~ ======== 34 I N "~ 1--~=-I �I I I I I I I I I I I I I I r r r r f Dowland; and sections of several other streets in the central part of the city. 3. Local streets: to residences. All other streets, primarily affording access The city maintains several one-way streets, originally designated as such to facilitate traffic flow. Traffic patterns have changed in some instances, suggesting re-evaluation. For example, there is less traffic to and from what was formerly a highly industrialized area on the north side of the city. Rowe and Harrison Streets are not required to carry the traffic they once did. Closing of block-long sections of two streets has been discussed from time to time. Presently, Foster Street between Lavinia and Emily is closed on school days because it runs between Foster School and the playground. Barricades are put up by school personnel, and this solution seems acceptable. Lewis Street, between Ludington Avenue and Court Street is closed temporarily for special events in the City Park. Since the street divides the park and the band shell, permanent closing could have some advantages. Ludington Avenue dead-ends at the lake just beyond the intersection with Lakeshore Drive (M-116). The corner is confusing for visitors because directional signs are not clear. There is adequate space for an island which could include signs indicating Stearns Park, Loomis Street boat launch, parking, etc. Except for the bicycle lane on M-116 north of Lowell, the city has no designated bicycle routes. Rail Transportation The Chesapeake and Ohio (C&O, now CSX) system terminates in Ludington and has connections via the Michigan-Wisconsin Transportation Company (MWT) ferry to Wisconsin. The Chessie System has links in Saginaw and Grand Rapids where it can make connections to locations throughout the country and Canada. There is daily service into and out of Ludington, most coming in on the main CSX line to the harbor. The biggest users are Dow Chemical, Harbison-Walker (in Pere Marquette Township), and MWT, although several smaller businesses utilize rail service on a regular basis. There is also service along a portion of the Ludington & Northern line for industries in the Washington/Tinkham area. The materials being transported are primarily bulk products. The rail activity is very stable and relatively significant for a community the size of Ludington. In 1985, more than 14,000 carloads were shipped out of or into Ludington. 35 �Lake Transportation The Port of Ludington is the most active Michigan port on lower Lake Michigan, but use is decreasing, reflecting the decline in all Great Lakes shipping. In 1982, 1.9 million short tons went through the port, compared to Muskegon (1.2), Manistee (.2), Frankfort (.3), and Escanaba (6.5). The average for a period during the 1970's was 2.98 million tons. The commodities most frequently shipped are limestone, sand and gravel, basic chemicals, and paper products. MWT's cross-lake ferry handles passengers, freight, and rail traffic to Kewaunee, Wisconsin. It is presently running two round trips per day in the summer and one during the rest of the year. MWT is operating on a lease arrangement with CSX; no state subsidies are involved. The future of the ferry operation is uncertain, since freight shipments have been decreasing--and freight shipments are the primary source of income. The ferry plays a major role in the tourist activity of the city. As the only remaining cross-lake ferry, it brings as many as 90,000 people into the city annually. During the 1970's, passenger ferries crossed Lake Michigan from three ports: Ludington, Frankfort, and Muskegon, with Ludington having the most traffic. Air Transportation The Mason County Airport is a general aviation, Class B, commercial airport located in Pere Marquette Township at the US 31/US 10 junction. It has two paved and lighted runways: one 5,000-foot primary and one 3,500-foot crosswind. It has complete fueling and repair facilities, and is open year-round. The airport is rated for instrument landings and can handle all types of private aircraft and large turbo-prop planes. It does not provide commercial service but does provide service to private, corporate, and charter aircraft. Activity at the airport is projected to continue increasing. In 1984, it was estimated to have averaged 26 based aircraft, with 21,700 operations. This is projected to increase to 35 aircraft and 24,500 operations by 1994. Most of the activity is local traffic originating and terminating at the airport; about 40 percent is from other airports. The only regular air freight activity is for UPS. Commercial passenger service is available at Traverse City, Manistee, Muskegon, and Grand Rapids. Public Transportation Ludington had been without any intercity bus service for many months until recently when a trial service was initiated between Traverse City and Holland, with stops in Ludington and other cities and towns between these terminals. The trial will continue for over a year, when continuation will depend on the number of passengers using the service. 36 �' I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I r r r Ludington Area Dial-A-Ride provides transportation in the Ludington-Scottville area on a demand-response basis, operating six days a week. It serves all of the city, portions of Pere Marquette and Hamlin Townships, and Scottville. Passenger levels have been rather consistent, averaging about 11,500 to 13,500 per month. Winter months show highest use, since school children ride the system in the city. About one-third of the users are senior citizens, 30 percent are students, and 40 percent regular fares. A line-haul route (scheduled stops) between Ludington and Scottville was tried but was unsuccessful, so i t was discontinued. Long-term funding for the system is not clear. Presently, state and federal sources provide over half the required revenue. Less than 10 percent comes from fares. The remainder is provided by the participating units of government. UTILITIES Except for a few isolated locations which do not have sewer and water, the city is almost fully served by public utilities. Gas, electric, and telephone services are available throughout the city. Public Sewer Services The sewage treatment plant, about four miles east of the city, was constructed in 1975 and has a rated capacity of 7.5 million gallons per day (mgd) but has an operational capacity of 6 mgd. It is presently operating on an average of 2.8 mgd, with peaks up to 5 mgd. This high daily load is due primarily to high ground water infiltration and heavy water runoff . Part of the city's storm water drainage is still connected to the sanitary sewer system. The treatment plant utilizes a secondary treatment system; effluent flows into the Pere Marquette River. The transmission system includes both primary and secondary transmission mains, and operates on a gravity and forced system. Some segments are over 70 years old, and consequently have a high rate of infiltration. The city operates seven lift stations; the primary station at Rath and Dowland pumps to the treatment plant. Two of the stations have been recommended for replacement: South Madison and North James. Both of these have been in service for about 50 years. The main area not served by the sewer system is on both sides of North Washington Avenue north of Lowell Street, west to Rowe and east to Monona, and the 40-acre city-owned land northwest of the corner of Bryant and North Washington. In addition, there are some small sections around town, one to four blocks long which are not included. Another lift station would be required to provide adequate service to those areas not now served. Most of the system is used by homeowners and small commercial and industrial users. The largest individual user is Dow Chemical Company which pretreats its waste to remove hazardous 37 �chemical materials prior to discharge into the city system. There are only a few isolated locations of private on-site systems for residential use. Waste treatment is contracted to Pere Marquette Township and Mason County Department of Public Works. Separation of stormwater and sanitary sewer systems exists throughout most of the city. The stormwater system drains into Lincoln Lake, Lake Michigan, and Pere Marquette River. Public Water Services The water system includes a Lake Michigan intake, treatment plant on the lakeshore, above~and below-ground storage, and a transmission system in the city. The treatment plant was constructed in 1970, and has a capacity of up to 8 mgd. The average peak daily use is 2-3 mgd. The transmission system is virtually complete except for sections west and south from the corner of Bryant and N. Washington. All residences in the city have access to the system although an unknown number use private wells for drinking water. The oldest segments of the system are 100 years old, but are generally in good shape; annual maintenance and sandy soils have helped to protect the system. The city has two million gallons of storage: one million underground at the treatment plant, and one-half million each in above-ground tanks on Gaylord Avenue and Danaher Street. The city provides water to Pere Marquette and Amber Townships, and Scottville through a 20" line running along US 10; One-half million gallons of storage and a booster pump station are located near Brye Road to provide that service. The largest industrial users are Dow Chemical, Straits Steel & Wire, and Stokely in Scottville. Solid Waste The city contracts with a private hauler for the disposal of all residential, commercial, and industrial waste, except for that from Dow Chemical which has its own landfill outside of the city. Most domestic solid waste is transported to White Lake Landfill in Muskegon County, with the remainder going to Mason County Landfill. Collections are made daily; pickups throughout the city are on a weekly basis. Special collections for white goods and brush are scheduled annually. A transfer station is maintained by the city for residents with material not acceptable for the regular service. The city has participated in the county's recent solid disposal plan which recommends continuing on the present for the next five years, but moving toward more emphasis on reduction, composting, and recycling. (See Mason County Waste Plan, 1986.) 38 waste basis waste Solid �I I I I I I I I I I I r Electricity/Gas/Phone and Cable Television These services are available throughout the city. Michigan Consolidated Gas Company provides gas; Consumers Power Company, electricity; General Telephone of Michigan, telephone; Cable Vision, Inc., cable television. All maintain local offices or toll-free numbers for customer services. None of these companies reported major problems or issues; all indicated that they are capable of serving Ludington with any type of residential, commercial, or industrial service required. RECREATION The city undertook a complete recreational plan in 1984, which satisfies the requirements of the Federal Land and Water Conservation Fund as administered by the DNR. The plan includes a recreational inventory which is illustrated on the map in Figure VIII. The following summary of some of the available resources is taken from Recreational Development Plan of Ludington, Michigan (1984), and Recreation Plan Update (1986). Recreation Programming The city works in cooperation with the Ludington Board of Education in the operation and maintenance of city parks and programming of recreational activities. Programs and activities include the following: Softball (slow and fast pitch) T-ball Baseball (mites, midgets, inter.) Basketball Golf Soccer Football and Flag Football Tennis Volleyball Archery Shuffleboard Gymnastics Ice Skating Swimming (indoor) Hunter Safety Senior Citizen Activities Health Clinics Continuing Education Adult Physical Education Special Events Recreational Resources In addition to the playing fields and playgrounds where these activities are conducted, the city maintains a number of parks with a variety of recreational opportunities. The major ones are the following (a number of smaller parks can be identified on the map): I I ,- r 1. Stearns Park - 17 acres including one-half mile of Lake Michigan beach, two beach houses, shuffle board, horseshoes, playground, and picnic areas. 2. Peter Copeyon Park - 4.2 acres with 400 feet of frontage on Pere Marquette Lake, boat launch site, fish-cleaning station, restrooms, playground, and picnic areas. 39 �FIGURE VIII 8 LINCOLN LAKE CITY OF LUDINGTON MASTER PLAN UPDATE G G 6 Recreation Facilities Map Key Key H 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 Name Oriole Field Steams Park Cartier Park Dejonge Playfield Optimist Field Dow Field Blodgett Park Senior Citizen Ctr Copeyon Park 4th Ward Park # Ownership 11 12 13 14 15 School City City School School DOW (Lease to City) City City City City 16 17 18 19 20 40 Name Iverson Park Community Pool Loomis St, Boat labb Municipal Marina City Park/Band Shell Fonner St. Simons Ch Elementary Sch Plgds Cormnarcial Marinas Racquet Club Golf Course Ownership City School State City City City ~ School Private Private Private ...__ _•_ __ j __ _.._ ..._ • - _ _ - _____J I �~ FIGURE IX Area-Wide Recreational Facilities ' 'I I I I I I I I I I Legend I I /\ CAMPGROUNDS 'Y OUTDOOR CENTERS AOAO ANO REST AREA + ,-ot) SU.TE ROADSIDE PARKS STATE SAFETY REST AREAS PUBLIC ACCESS SITES -J WILDLIFE FLOODING AREAS J... AECREA TtONAL HARBORS Ii; :~~I~(ti~e~N~:~~:ri'1:~~M .&O BANKS OVER THE ACRES INDICATED - STATE LAND 1111 FEDERAL LAND 41 �3. City Park - 2.9 acres on Ludington Avenue between Lewis and Gaylord, with band shell, picnic tables and benches. 4. Cartier Park - 68 acres including 2500 feet of frontage on Lincoln Lake, developed campground, boat launch site, nature area. Cartier Park has been the subject of special study recently to examine the feasibility of upgrading the campground section of the park to provide better services to campers and consequently, make the campground self-supporting, perhaps even profitable to the city. The campground, on the west side of the park off Lakeshore Drive, covers 24 acres; the remaining east section, 44 acres, is undeveloped except for some minor roads and is suitable for hiking or skiing trails, and other passive recreation. The plan calls for development of the campground in three phases, with the cost to be spread over several years. (See Cartier Park; A Study of Market & Development, Tom Sturr, 1986.) Area-wide Recreational Facilities Mason County and Ludington have a great variety of recreational resources. In addition to Lake Michigan, Pere Marquette Lake, and Lincoln Lake, inland lakes and parks provide opportunities for swimming, fishing, boating, camping, etc. Figure IX shows these facilities on the county map. Port Ludington provides some of the best sport fishing on Lake Michigan. Public access to Lake Michigan is available at several locations. Those identified on the county recreation map are: 1. 2. 3. Buttersville Peninsula on Pere Marquette Lake (city property). Suttons Landing in Pere Marquette Township on the west side of US 31 (access to Pere Marquette River and Lake). Pere Marquette River access on the east siqe of US 31, almost directly across from Suttons Landing. Those identified on the city recreation map are: 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. Loomis Street Boat Launch. Peter Copeyon Park. Madison & Water Streets. Cartier Park (access via Lincoln Lake and Lincoln River). Private marinas on Pere Marquette Lake. The Ludington Board of Education maintains an 80-acre school forest located just east of the city limits between Bryant and Tinkham, with trails for nonmotorized use. Public parks are maintained by Pere Marquette and Hamlin Townships adjacent to the city. The county fairgrounds on US 10 and US 31, east of the city, are the site of the annual county fair in August, and other events scheduled during the year. The county maintains a rest area and picnic grounds on US 31 south of the city and the 42 • • • • • • • • • • • �I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I TABLE 8 Recreation Analysis Standard Activity Baseba 11 Softba 11 1/6,000 people 1/3,000 people Existing Need I I I Field 7 N 3 Fields 3 N 5 Cour-ts 8 N Tennis Courts 1/2,000 people Ice Skating Basketba 11 1120,ooc2 3 111,000 9 Courts Indoor Pool 1115,ooc2 I Pool Beach Boat Launch Sites Nature Areas I Rink 2'/people at pop. 3/4 4 1/10 miles of stream 5a/1,000 6 3a/ I ,000 Public Fish Access I site/3 miles of water Community Bui Iding l/25,0oc2 Soccer Field Footbal I Field + 7 1/1,500 (or 1/15,000 visitorsJ Ia/ I ,000 Marina I ,800' 6 Picnic Area Shuffle Board 3 150 seasonal wel Is/ 60-70 transit slips I/ I , 500 peop Ie 2 1/10,000 Car-t ier Park area, less campground. Deficiencies 3 N N I Note: 2,640 I 10 N 45 Acres 44* N 27 Acres 30a N 2 Sites 3 N I Center I N* 6 Courts 17 N 9 Acres 8 N* 150 y 6 Fields 3 y I Fields 4 N Standards were accepted from the fol lowing sources: * Includes public and private facll ities. 2 3 4 5 6 7 Tennessee State Planning Commission Michigan Department of Natural Resources National Recreation and Parks Association Vermont, Outdoor Recreation Plan Arkansas Statewide Plan New Jersey Recreation Plan Ludington Parks Commission 43 N 3 Sites 150 SI ips 7 y 7 �Pumped-Storage Campground and Recreation Area adjacent to the pumped-storage plant. Ludington State Park, eight miles north of the city at the end of M-116, is located between Lake Michigan and Hamlin Lake. It includes more than 4,000 acres of forest and dune lands, with beaches on both lakes, picnic areas, campgrounds, and 18 miles of marked trails. In winter, cross-country ski trails are kept groomed. A public boat launch gives access to Hamlin Lake. Within a 30-mile radius of Ludington there are over 2,450 campsites in public and private campgrounds. North of the state park, Manistee National Recreation Area provides thousands of acres of public recreation and hunting area, including campgrounds and picnic areas. West Shore Community College provides both indoor and outdoor recreational facilities which are available to local residents, some with a modest fee. In addition, special events are scheduled at the college which are open to area residents. There are a number of privately operated recreational facilities in the area: Ludington Hills golf course (south of the city) is public, but Lincoln Hills and Epworth Heights golf courses are both private. The Jaycees operate a miniature golf course at Stearns Park. A private racquet club is located on Rath Avenue, north of Bryant. There are also seven marinas on Pere Marquette Lake in addition to the municipal marina, making a total of about 352 slips. Recreation Analysis Table 8 provides an assessment of the city's recreational resources based on standards the Recreation Commission feels are appropriate for the city. Deficiencies are shown in the following areas: Marina Slips: Although this analysis shows the city has enough slips, the need for more slips is significant, based on the length of the waiting list for slips in the municipal marina. Probably the standard applied was developed before the tremendous upsurge in pleasure boating that has been taking place in Michigan. It has been suggested that there is an almost inexhaustible demand for marina slips all along the Michigan shoreline. The Waterfront Master Plan suggests that an additional 160 slips would be a minimum to begin to meet this demand. Soccer Fields: The city needs standard-size fields, and city personnel have been looking at areas in the northern part of the city. Indoor Ice Rink: Although no deficiency is shown in the table, need has been expressed for an indoor rink, particularly since no outdoor rinks are being maintained at the present time. 44 • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • �I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I Overall, the city's recreational facilities are quite adequate and, with the exception of these items cited above, meet local needs. The strong cooperation between the city and the school district enhances the operation and efficiency of the programs and the facilities. PUBLIC HEALTH AND SAFETY These services, along with public utilities, provide structure that allows the city to function. The level services is directly related to development potential. to the community survey, Ludington residents appear to well satisfied with these services. the basic of these According be fairly Police Department The Police Department provides 24-hour service with manned patrols. In cooperation with Mason County Sheriff Department, a central dispatch system has recently been established. The police department office on Loomis and Rath is open for walk-in contact from 8:00 am to 5:00 pm, Monday through Friday. All phone calls are answered in the sheriff's department. The city police provide primary road and traffic patrol, conduct investigations, respond to criminal complaints, and assist with crowd control, fire calls, and special event activities. No major issues or problems have been identified. Fire Department Ludington's Fire Department is entirely an on-call department. Most communities this size have a fire department which employs some full-time personnel. Nevertheless, the city maintains an insurance (ISO) rating of 6. Rates are determined by the National Insurance Service Office; the lower the rating on a 1-10 scale, the more effective are the fire fighting defenses. Most on-call or part-paid departments in other cities rate 7 or higher. Ludington has been at a 6 rating for the past five years. The department is fully equipped, and water is available on a grid system, with hydrants about 300 feet apart throughout the city. On the average, response time for the 21-person department is 2.5 to 5 minutes to get the trucks rolling. The number of fire calls has decreased over the past several years, attributed to an expansion of public education and prevention activities. All commercial buildings are inspected annually. In 1985, the department reported 75 calls, half the number reported in 1975. The city provides service on a contract basis to individual property owners in Pere Marquette Township. The fire department maintains a marine rescue squad and an extrication rescue squad. 45 �There are no major problems with Ludington's fire department. Only two issues have been raised regarding services: (1) the lack of direct water supply to the North Washington area where no public water is provided; and (2) low pressure flows due to older 4" water mains in some areas. Other City Services Except for the fire and police departments, the city's administrative of£ices are located in the Municipal Building on William Street. The second floor, originally designed as the City Commission meeting room, is not accessible to the handicapped, so public meetings have had to be scheduled in either the school administration building or the senior citizen center. The major part of the municipal building is the garage for the Department of Public Works. Recent discussion has raised questions about the best use of this prime location across from the municipal marina, and adjacent to the central business district. If the garage and the heavy road equipment could be moved to another site in the city, the building perhaps could be adapted for more efficient community use, including an accessible meeting room. Medical Facilities Memorial Medical Center of West Michigan, located on Ludington Avenue at the east city limits, provides area-wide hospital services to Ludington and Mason County. It is a full-service hospital with 95 acute-care beds. In 1983-84, extensive renovation expanded outpatient and ancillary services. inpatient services are down about 20 percent since 1980, while total outpatient services are up 8.2 percent; outpatient diagnostic services are up 26 percent, and outpatient surgical procedures, 274 percent. Ambulance service is provided by the county and is housed at the hospital. There are three fully equipped advanced life-support units. Almost all emergencies and rescue calls are handled by the ambulance service. There are a number of other medical services available in the area. In 1982, 30 health care providers in all fields were reported. There are two nursing/personal care facilities: Baywood Nursing Home and Oakview Medical Care Facility-Mason County. In addition, there are a number of adult care homes in the city and the county. Regional medical facilities are in Muskegon, Grand Rapids, and Traverse City. AREA PUBLIC SERVICES These educational, cultural, and service functions, although located for the most part in the city, serve a much wider population. They have a primary effect on the quality of life for county as well as city residents. 46 �I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I Education Ludington Area Public School District covers 75 square miles, and includes, in addition to the city, all or portions of Pere Marquette, Summit, and Hamlin Townships. Enrollment in 1985-86 was about 2,500. The district operates six elementary schools, one junior high, and one high school on 19 mills. The school district receives no state aid. Existing physical facilities are in good condition. Busing is provided for all out-of-city students; city students may ride the Dial-A-Ride system. .The school district provides vocational education for the and as has been mentioned, operates recreational programs city. Peterson Auditorium at the high school is the meeting facility in the county. There are two parochial in the city: one provides K-12 education, and one K-8. county, for the largest schools Mason-Lake Intermediate Developmental Center, located on US 10 between Ludington and Scottville, provides a number of training and support programs for children and young people in the two counties and Pentwater with physical, mental, and emotional handicaps, as well as a program for gifted and talented children. Out of a total enrollment in the districts of 5,400, 625 students are participating in these special programs. The Intermediate School District provides other services to the participating districts such as in-service training for cooks and bus drivers, group food buying, and communication with state offices. West Shore Community College, located eight miles northeast of the city, is a two-year college which serves Mason, Manistee, and parts of Lake and Oceana Counties. It provides a number of two-year vocational curricula as well as an academic curriculum which is transferable to four-year institutions in the state. The college also provides a number of services to the community at large: conference and meeting facilities, recreational facilities, library services, entertainment and special programs, and exhibits of many kinds. WSCC hosts the Manistee-Mason Community Growth Alliance (CGA), an area-wide economic development clearinghouse. The college's Business and Industrial Institute provides local services such as developing business plans and marketing studies, and coordinates business research. The Institute receives technical support from MSU. Cultural and Historic Resources The city's public library, located on Ludington Avenue in the central business district, is a member of the Mid-Michigan Library League; it handles inter-library loans from other libraries througho~t the state. The library provides a variety of regional services, including outreach for the homebound, a bookmobile with the county materials for the blind and 47 �sight-impaired, and a regional depository. collection totals about 35,000 volumes. The current The library conducts special programs for children and adults such as films, summer reading programs, and special seasonal events. The second floor of the library does not have barrier-free access, but at the present time, public programs are not scheduled there. Rose Hawley Museum and White Pine Village are operated by the Mason County Historical Society. The museum has recently been moved into expanded quarters on West Loomis Street, where there are meeting facilities, extensive research library and archives, and exhibit areas where artifacts illustrating county history are displayed on a rotating basis on such topics as: local maritime history, lumbering, Indian culture, industrial and commercial activities, dolls, toys and games, etc. White Pine Village, located on South Lakeshore Drive overlooking Lake Michigan, has 16 relocated or specially constructed buildings surrounding the first county courthouse. First opened in 1976, the Village has been growing ever since. It is open daily from Memorial Day to Labor Day, with many special events scheduled which illustrate various aspects of county history. There are a number of special programs for children, including special tours when the Village is decorated for Christmas. A master plan was developed recently to guide future expansion, both of physical facilities and programs. Mason County Historical Society enjoys unusual support from county residents; it is partially supported by millage which has been reaffirmed several times. The Society · is affiliated with Mason County Genealogical Society and with the Old Engine Club. Other historical sites are the Pere Marquette memorial, on the Buttersville Peninsula, and the county courthouse in the city, a registered historical building. Ludington also has a number of fine older homes, some of which provide architectural significance and charm to the city, and which might justify investigation to determine the extent of historical significance. Senior Services The Ludington Area Senior Citizen Center, located on Foster and Rowe Streets, offers a wide range of recreational and support services for senior citizens in the city and in Pere Marquette, Hamlin, Summit, and Amber Townships. Services are targeted to over 4,000 senior citizens; funding is provided by the participating governmental units, including the county. Recreational opportunities include dancing, nature and hiking club, shuffleboard, badminton, yoga, billiards~ table games, and special events. Support services include information and referral, diet and health programs, tax assistance, and a variety 48 ~ II II II • • �'I of cultural programs. In addition, the Department of Social Services offers a number of services at the center. I I I County and state offices are located several places in the city. The courthouse, on Ludington Avenue east of the central business distri6t, houses the primary administrative and judicial services. Economic Development Corporation, and the Health Department, Mental Health, Department of Social Services and various other services are located on South Washington Avenue. The County Sheriff's Department and the County Jail are on Delia, two blocks north of Ludington Avenue. I I I I I I I I I I I I I I County and State Services 49 �' I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I V. LAND USE AND DEVELOPMENT TRENDS Ludington is a mature community, almost entirely developed. Less than 20 percent of the city's land area is vacant, with only limited areas available for major development of any kind. COMPARISON OF LAND USES, 1962 and 1986 Table 9 compares percentages of various categories of land use in 1962, before the last master plan was completed, and in 1986. The increased acreage shown in the table represents annexation of various parcels of land over the years. But annexation : snot considered a reasonable alternative today, with the development of Pere Marquette Charter Township around the city's boundaries. Although annexation added more acres, the proportion of vacant land is still the same today as it was in 1962. Acreage has increased in almost every category, but proportions have remained virtually the same, with residential and industrial uses and parks showing slightly increased percentages. The Present Land Use Map (Figure X) shows where these types of uses are distributed in the city today. LAND USE CLASSIFICATION Residential Uses Single-family dwellings predominate in most residential areas in the city. The traditional residential and accessory uses are expected to continue in these areas, as well as generally accepted uses such as churches, schools, parks and playgrounds, neighborhood stores, and other uses deemed not to be detrimental to the residential environment. The quality of housing is relatively stable; however, with the age of most houses nearing fifty years, it becomes more important to continue housing rehabilitation programs and enforcement of building codes in order to maintain that quality. Two-family and multi-family uses have increased, many through conversion of large single-family homes into two or more dwelling units. Conversions in single-family areas need to be monitored to insure that traffic, parking, or other potential problems will not have a negative impact on neighboring properties. 51 �4-lkz CITY OF LUDINGTON COMPREHENSIVE 8 LINCOLN PLAN EXISTING LAND USE :J SINGLE FAMILY LAKE fi:@;:lfi::::::;t MULTI FAMLY IBR\IMIM COMMERCIAL INSTITUTIONAL/PUBLIC PARK/RECREATIONAL IIIOUSTRIAL VACANT _ISS,rr1t, J·lwmm m ~ □ Qronrol i □□□I LJIL iLJ~. .:.:-:4'•:• :::J:b:J□□□□ □□□□ - Q::· 1~r.:l]~l[Je]· r1 □'iG~ 1~r }: :11 lrr.:J r-71olri lffi"l ffi7. II• ! □ 0 00 □ · ~ ~-:= □ ~ ::.1w~~i!B_oo10~□□ Cl Lt ~ I ••I I j • ,:1 •• I t;oj 1 ~o'. -~ I•" J I ;; I :o~o~ 0000 ~: i i ~ • ,~o~ I ·.:. rnf'i fT'7 W1] I: ", fil II 7~ jhI :: 0 ~ ~❖ C111~f t::.:._J ooooo W1·• ~ iJ □ D ~ ~I~ ,~i k.n ~I I ==:=l [~J EJ □II ijn~; e::m ]r-i rm ...- ...- \ ;~~1 ', !'i . ill ~ lLkl ILI u!!U==. 0 ,. l ...z 1mnnnn1e7c:71~,~o □,ooo ~ "'_, 0 0 00000 ~j " ,~ljllf //JV ~• rr:-:•-;.;J!=====thf,f:•.:· 1 . · •:•:• []i□□□I) nfJie:J □~ II~ □□ l~lll□□□ 117 r7Jllllll!7 □ rn7 ,~,1 lliw rumJllillU Lm) 8 <i, .. :,.1¥ I I, - {~ ifi!!fi1'.::::::.-:-:::::·:·:·:·:·:::::::::::•:::::::;:·• . ~ LEGEND STREET SYSTEMS ~ --~-- STATE TRUNKLINE COUNTY PRIMARY G, .,,.116Pld•. M.c~l'I N --- COUNTY LOCAL Sl1J1e a IJA'".l .. ...... .. MICHIGAN LOCAL STREET -------- CITY OFFICES © MAJOR ST RE ET v ou 2000 ' I -..AP BY DE PAR TM!:.NT OF 'r•TE 'l·,'R 1000' .. TRANSPORTATION 1986 ... G �TABLE 9 Land Use in Ludington 1962 and 1986 1962 Classification Residential Total (Single-family) (Two-family) (Multi-family) • • • • •I I II I I Percent of Total Acres 2,044 TOTAL 1986 100.0 513.5 (473.0) ( 19.5) ( 21.0) 25.1 (23.1) ( 1.0) ( 1.0) Acres 2,635 727.3 (596.8) ( 46.5) ( 84.0) Percent of Total 100.0 27.6 (22.6) ( 1.8) ( 3.2) Commercial 35.5 1.7 55.4 2.1 Industrial 123.0 6.0 217.2 8.2 Public 92.5 4.5 103.9 3.9 Semi-Public 48.5 2.4 93.9 3.6 103.5 5.1 183.7 7.0 522.5 25.6 536.3 20.4 Water 209.3 10.2 209.3 7.9 Vacant 395.7 19.4 508.0 19.3 Parks Streets Way, SOURCE: & Rights-ofinc. railroad 1962, Geer Associates; 1986, West Michigan Regional Planning Commission. Encroachment of nonresidential uses should be minimized by careful review of such uses as home occupations, industrial and commercial uses along transitional residential boundaries, and existing nonconforming uses in residential areas. Screening or other buffering should be required, both in existing circumstances and with future development, wherever nonresidential uses border residential areas. Multi-family housing can include a wide range of styles such as garden style apartments, high rise buildings, clustered townhouse or single family units, and condominiums. Although such developments can serve as transitional uses between single-family neighborhoods and more intensive uses, that has not been the pattern in the city. There are not clearly defined areas of the city designated for multi-family housing, and although some vacant parcels may be targeted for such development, multi-family 53 l �housing is likely to remain scattered throughout the city. Careful planning of new developments will insure that negative impacts do not result if attention is given to such factors as density, access to major streets, adequate open space, provision for on-site recreation, adequate on-site parking and internal traffic circulation, provision of public utilities, and landscaping and buffering. Commercial Uses Commercial uses are scattered throughout the city, with several well established clusters outside of the downtown area: South Washington and Madison Avenues in the fourth ward, South Washington and Dowland, North Washington across from the high school, as well a number of mixed commercial/residential uses on East Ludington Avenue. Commercial uses vary in intensity, depending to a large extent on whether they are oriented toward pedestrian or automobile traffic. Pedestrian-oriented areas are characterized by retail and office uses offering comparison shopping and professional and financial services, entertainment and restaurants, parking lots which provide convenient access to a number of such outlets, adequate sidewalks and pedestrian crossings at intersections, street furniture and other amenities which encourage pedestrian activity. Loading docks and delivery traffic need to be located and channeled so as to provide the least possible obstruction to pedestrians. The Central Business District is the primary area for such pedestrian emphasis, as detailed in the recently developed Central Business District Master Plan. General commercial uses oriented toward automobile traffic are usually more intensive uses, generating more traffic, sometimes including open display areas, drive-in facilities, automobile service facilities, etc. Parking is usually provided on the site. Some commercial uses, such as neighborhood shopping areas or other more isolated uses, will attract both pedestrian and automobile traffic. Local convenience shopping and neighborhood professional offices should be designed to serve the surrounding residential areas. This type of commercial development should be carefully planned to avoid spot-commercial or strip-commercial results. Parking availability and traffic flow need to be carefully monitored. Limited com~ercial uses often include a mix of office and professional services with residential uses, and sometimes represent transitional areas. Concerns include preservation and reuse of existing buildings such as large single-family residences with architectural or historic significance. Landscaping, rear-yard parking, and appropriate signs all contribute to the preservation of the special atmosphere of such areas. Parts of such areas may be eligible for historic district 54 I • • • • �designation, and investigation of this possibility could serve to guarantee the kind of preservation that is desired. • • • • • -I I I I I Resort/vacation accommodations are found in several places in the city, and this plan does not intend to change that by designating a particular resort commercial area. Any expansion or addition of these uses, wherever located in the city, should be planned so as to maintain the leisure/residential character of the community. Parking, signs, landscaping, and projected traffic impacts need to be monitored closely to preserve the present low-profile atmosphere. It is expected that commercial uses oriented toward marina and water-based activities will expand in the future. These uses will be located primarily on the Pere Marquette Lake waterfront. Special consideration needs to be given to the location of more intensive, semi-industrial activities such as boat storage and major repair. Adequate parking space for boat trailers will be an increasing problem, although such parking is not necessarily required on the waterfront. Industrial Uses A ge~eral industrial district provides full utilities and services and ideally is isolated from less intensive uses • Access is off major streets, and the boundaries provide adequate screening from surrounding nonindustrial uses. The industrial park is such an area and major new industrial development is expected to be located there. Therce are, however, important industries which are well established and expected to continue in other parts of the city. It is important to provide for expansion of these industries where it is possible without creating negative impacts on the surrounding uses. Provision for adequate buffering to minimize such impacts will be a critical consideration. Limited industrial uses include less intensive manufacturing, assembling, warehousing, and storage facilities. These activities tend to have little or no sensory impact other than increased traffic. Access to major streets should be required, with truck traffic using designated routes. Physical barriers such as landscaping or berms should provide adequate screening between these and adjacent nonindustrial uses. Public/Semi-Public Uses Governmental uses include city, county, and state offices and other facilities which are located in various places throughout the city. All facilities open to the public should be fully accessible. Consistent directional and location signs would facilitate identification by the public of these scattered sites. Ancillary services such as the Department of Public Works garage and heavy vehicle storage should be located outside the downtown area. 55 I ,L ;->K �Semi-public and institutional uses include public and private schools, religious facilities, hospital, museum, library, and similar uses. With adequate provision for parking and traffic flow, these uses are generally acceptable in most areas of the city. Parks and Recreational Uses Most parks and recreational facilities are public uses as well. Campgrounds, marinas, and public access to rivers and lakes are included in this category. Here again, uniform directional signs could improve the aesthetic quality as well as make finding particular sites easier. • • Pedestriin walks and bicycle paths would provide easier access between the various public attractions and commercial centers, such as: Stearns Park, Loomis Street Boat Launch, Coast Guard, Municipal Marina, City Park, new waterfront develo~ment, and downtown. In addition, designated bicycle routes in other parts of the city would provide safer conditions for the considerable number of people who use bicycles for transportation and recreation. DEVELOPMENT TRENDS AND FUTURE LAND USE The Future Land Use Map accompaning this Comprehensive Plan is intended to show general land uses as guidelines for future development. It is recognized that there may be deviations depending upon circumstances, and that within the boundaries of each category there may be other uses included; there is no intention to suggest that every parcel in a particular area must be developed as designated. The map is subject to refinement and amendment, as is the entire plan. Thus, this map differs from the Zoning Map which does dictate current land uses. In addition to the previously described uses which are indicated on the map, the Future Land Use Map (Figure XI) shows the areas where development may be expected in the future, as well as areas where redevelopment should be encouraged or where particular concern has been expressed. To facilitate discussion, the following areas have been numbered on the map. 1. Manufacturer's Addition Manufacturer's Addition, in the northern part of the city, was Ludington's first ''industrial park." Originally developed for industrial use, with residential lots platted around it, this section has had varying success as an industrial center over the years. At the present time, there are a number of vacant buildings, some of which can be reused. There are a number of operating industrial plants, and a mixture of scattered residences. With the recent development of the industrial park on the south side of the 56 • • • • • • • �J city, the interest in having further industrial development in Manufacturer's Addition has waned. One possibility for reuse of some vacant buildings might be light industrial uses, such as warehousing, which could be encouraged with appropriate screening from adjoining residential uses. The possibility of moving the city's public works garage and heavy equipment storage to this area has been discussed. Thoughtful planning is necessary to make maximum use or reuse of buildings and land in this area, while at the same time, protecting the surrounding residential areas. 'I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I 2. Residential/Recreational/Office Development One large parcel available for development in the city is the 40 acres now owned by the city, northwest of the corner of Washington and Bryant. South and southeast of this parcel are vacant areas of sufficient size for major development, perhaps for multi-family use. Recreational, residential, and low intensity office or "high tech" uses have been considered for the city property and the adjacent areas. Major development of any kind, however, will require extension of the city's water and sewer lines and a lift station to insure adequate service. 3. Neighborhood Shopping It is expected that future residential development in this general area will create demand for low-intensity neighborhood shopping outlets. As has been previously indicated, local convenience shopping and neighborhood professional offices should be designed to serve the surrounding residential areas, with adequate safeguards against proliferating commercial development. 4. City Entrance/Gateway The entrance to the city is an area of particular concern. It is considered critical that the existing style be preserved on East Ludington Avenue from the city limits to the Central Business District. The strip-commercial development outside the city limits should not be allowed to "creep in" and destroy the gracious aspect which has continued to exist. It is intended that this area continue to have mixed residential and office uses, with retention and preservation of existing buildings, most of which were originally large single-family houses. Where reuse is desirable, existing architecture should be maintained. Particular attention must be given to appropriate signs, parking, and landscaping so as to maintain the unique atmosphere of the area. 57 �5. Central Business District The Central Business District (CBD) provides a mixture of retail outlets, entertainment, professional and financial services. Activities should be oriented toward the pedestrian shopper with provision of ample open spaces, street furniture, landscaping, appropriate signs, and consolidated parking. The Central Business District Master Plan provides detailed suggestions for additions, renovations and/or reuse. Residential uses ~f upper stories of downtown buildings would probably result in more activity and expand the market. The southern end of South James Street has several vacant buildings and many of the buildings currently in use show deterioration. In the judgment of professional planners working on waterfront and downtown design, one of the reasons for this is that James Street dead-ends just past Dowland. with the development of the waterfront area, and the loop road to connect James Street with the extension of Dowland east (through the waterfront development area), a new interest in reuse and redevelopment of South James Street should follow. Most of the uses in this area are not now pedestrian-oriented. However, the direct pedestrian connections planned between the waterfront and downtown should encourage commercial activity more appropriate to downtown. 6. Waterfront/Marine Areas The property with the best potential for development is the CSX property along the Pere Marquette Lake waterfront. The recently completed Waterfront Master Plan outlines the guidelines for developing this property and some surrounding land, part of it owned by the city. Plans call for a second marina, redevelopment of the municipal complex, new access to the ferry dock, housing, and public areas. An important goal in this plan is the connection of this waterfront area with the downtown business district, with emphasis on mutual support rather than competition between the waterfront and downtown. In addition to the area included in this plan, it is intended that the waterfront area include the Pere Marquette Lake shoreline around the bayou and south to Peter Copeyon Park. Development in these areas should include a variety of marine-related uses targeted to both visitors and residents. It is critical to maintain public access to the waterfront as well as scenic vistas. Height of any proposed buildings as well as adequate open space requirements will be important determining factors in any future development. Some of the adjoining areas, particularly Madison Street south of the bridge and South Washington Avenue, have 58 • • • • •~ • '• I �'• -I I I I I I I I I I I I I I developed more or less haphazardly and now show a mix of residential, various levels of commercial, and even industrial uses on some sites. Careful planning is required to encourage appropriate marina-related commercial uses and specialty shops and services for marina users; adequate screening should be provided to protect surrounding residential uses. 7• Industrial Expansion Provision for expansion of existing industries could be made on Dowland Street by the gradual phasing out of residential uses, particularly on the south side of the street and south to the shoreline. Consideration should be given to industries which may require docking facilities; industrial requirements should be coordinated with marina-related development expected in the waterfront area. COOPERATION WITH PERE MARQUETTE CHARTER TOWNSHIP Since Pere Marquette Charter Township virtually surrounds the city, i t seems imperative that the two units of government cooperate on future plans and development. Figure XII, in the Appendix, shows the Future Land Use Plan for Pere Marquette Charter Township. For city planners, it is important to consider what the township plans to do on our mutual boundaries. For example, the fact that township land surrounding Ludington's industrial park is planned to be industrial provides opportunity for cooperation in expanding industrial activities, perhaps through use of tax-sharing incentives. In other areas, consideration will need to be given to what adjoining uses now exist or may be developed in the future. 59 �'-I EPILOGUE Present-day planners are faced with both the mistakes and the triumphs of the past. Decisions have to be made on the basis of what is practicable and what is desirable in order to preserve what is advantageous, to mitigate what is not desirable, and to avoid the same kinds of mistakes in the future. This Comprehensive Plan is designed to serve as a guide for desirable change in Ludington's future. If it is to remain usable, it must be periodically reviewed, and amended when circumstances serve to change the goals or policies. I I I I I I I I I I I I I I 61 �' 'J I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I APPENDIX A FUNDING RESOURCES With many federal funding programs being cut back or cut out entirely, the city must depend primarily on resources available by its own authority, with support in some cases from state and federal sources. Local Resources General Obligation Bonds: Public improvements are supported by a pledge of the city's taxing authority, generally requiring voter approval. General Revenue Bonds: Public purpose revenue-generating bonds. Special Assessments: Specific public assessments by a petition or city initiative assessing the property owners who benefit in the designated district. Industrial/Economic Development Bonds: Private purpose bonding issues under Act 62 (Industrial Development), LEDCOR/EDC, Michigan Strategic Fund, and DOA. Tax Abatements: Incentives to encourage new industry or rehabilitation of existing industrial uses under Act 198 (1974). Tax Increment Financing (TIFA): Tax increases in a specified district are captured to be used for improvements in that district. City Income Tax: General municipal revenue source. Hotel/Motel Room Tax: A specific tourist-related development. revenue source for State and Federal Resources Community Development Block Grants: Discretionary loans and grants for housing, economic development, and planning projects. Land and Water Conservation Funds/Michigan Natural Resource Trust Funds: recreational grants for land acquisition and development. Michigan Equity Funds: Historic Designation: Cultural improvement grants. Technical assistance, loans, and grants. Michigan Waterway Fund/Coastal Zone Management Fund: assistance and grants for coastal improvements. 63 technical �Emergency Home Moving Program/Army Corps of Engineer Advance Measures Program: Grants and loans for shore-land improvements due to high water. Economic Development Administration Public Works Grants Program: Grants and loans for public improvements and economic development. HUD's Urban Development Action Grant Program: for economic development projects. Grants and loans Michigan Strategic Fund: Assistance and technical information through Michigan Department of Commerce, and bonding authority. Private Initiatives Joint ventures and private syndications have recently become popular mechanisms to entice the private sector to participate, finance, or even develop municipal or public projects. Appropriate state and federal tax advantages and the appropriate economic climate are necessary. Private purchase of facilities or equipment and lease-back to the municipality have also been successful if the appropriate tax advantages are present. Private financing at reduced interest rates. These are particularly successful if the low interest monies can be rolled back into a fund which can be used to finance future projects. Private foundations and institutions are resources for special projects and programs. The larger industries in the city such as Dow Chemical and Consumers Power have private foundations and endowments whi~h have historically been supportive in an effort to be good corporate citizens. The establishment of a Ludington Foundation has been suggested. Individuals, corporations, or groups who wish to make substantial contributions to the city could contribute funds which could be used for special projects to improve the quality of life for all residents. Local businesses, large and small, can be asked to participate in community projects and programs; frequently, mutual interests can be satisfied. 64 �I I I I I I I I I I I I APPENDIX B Tables and Figures Table 10 11 12 13 Figure XII Climatological Summary Building Permits and Valuation, City of Ludington, 1980-1986 State Equalized Value, City of Ludington, 1980-1986 Characteristics by Census Block Areas, City of Ludington, 1980 Pere Marquette Charter Township Future Land Use Plan I I I I I ' ' 65 �__ .- •.• --- . . . . , TABLE 10 Climatological Summary Period: 1951-80 TFMPFAAT ,cc- IF MEANS . . . I: >- ::, J AM FE8 MAA APA MAY J UN JUL AUG SEP OCT NOV DEC YEAA dC X 0 ",: >- .J I: ....I -I: 0 I: 15 , E, 15. 3 23 . 0 34 , 3 43 . 1 52 , E, 57 , E, 5E, , 8 50 , 7 41 . 3 31 . 2 20 . 9 22 . 2 23 . 2 31 , E, 44 , 3 54 . 3 E,3 , 8 E,8 , E, E,7 , 3 E,0 , 5 50 . 2 38 . 3 27 . 4 I ;;o 28 . 7 31 . 1 40 , 1 54 . 2 E,5 , E, 74 . q 7'3 . 5 77 . 8 70 . 3 59 . 0 45 . 3 33 . 8 z ...J z 3E,' 91 4€, . ol •FAQM 1951 - 8 0 NOAMALS 55 . ol SOURCE: 0 .... a: Vl 0W a: " " U I •,._ .J W Cl a: -I 5E,+ 55+ 73 85+ 88+ '34+ '33+ '37+ 92+ 83+ 74+ E,2 97 0 >- 0 .... a: Vl ow a: Ow >- z > 0 " 0 0 CD ">- " u :I WO a: ...J w 11 - 11+ 78 1E, 20 - 22+ 7q 17 30 -14+ E,2 2 30 12+ 73 11 25 22+ E,E, 10 1E, 28+ 72 11 3 37+ 72 5 55 1q 3€,+ 77 2€, 53 2 2E,+ 59 1€, 71 2 19+ 7E, 27 E,1 3 3 58 30 E,2 1 -14+ 7E, 31 75 54 E,7 70 72 5E, E,E, I DEGAEE DAYS ME~~ ~\ ~~EA MIN MO~ I: >- ::, ...J I: ooc-rfPTTATl r"l, rr ra , I EXTREMES AUG FEB 551 , 9I -22 191111 I Cl' " 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 z :I 0 " ...J r,W M CD 1'3 15 E, 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 3 14 2 I 57 0 :I z 0 " ...J "'w M CD 30 27 2E, 14 4 0 0 0 1 5 18 28 I 153 I " 0 Cl lfl .JJ z :I 0 >- w « ...J w CD 2 3 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 5 Vl w I "CD 1327 1170 103_5 E,21 344 104 25 43 I , r ,irH , c;, SNOW MEfr~ ~~~~EA l, J Cl lfl .JJ -z ...J z "w w 0 Vl 0U "CD I: 0 0 0 0 12 E,8 137 115 149 4E,4 14 801 11€,E, 0 0 7249 I c; * • * 0 Z * 2 . 37 1 . 77 1 _qq 2 , 8'3 2 . 47 2 . '33 2 . 18 3 . 7'3 3 . 25 2 . 95 2 . 77 E, 352 J .... >Vl ...J w I ........ " z W o I: ffi 4 . 74 4 . 12 7 . 08 4 , '35 4 , 8'3 8 . 31 E. . '32 9 . 39 8 , E,8 E, . 48 c:: .... a: ">- w Vl >- ~ a: >- " - "w>- "0 ...J w a" a: I: ::, ...J z " w I: Cl 5q 5q 7E, 51 E,Q e,q 1 , E,Q 1 . 77 1 . q3 1 . 5'3 1 . E,7 2 , '3E, E, 7 E,E, 7q E,7 5E, e,q 2 , 44 52 27 07 30 17 OE, 27 18 08 14 2 . 48 52 75 E,1 E,9 5 . 24 75 E, , 40 E,2 4 . 58 3 . 30 2 . 00 1 . 70 2 . 71 31 . 841 AUG q . 39I 15I AUG 4 . 501 e.si 001 E,5 E,1 59 23 58 17 E,2 09 ► 27 . 4 17 . E, q _q 2 0 .0 .0 .0 .0 .0 .5 E, , 4 19 . E. - .... I: I X Z "I: 0I: E, E,, 5 51 . 3 22 . 0 8.4 .0 .0 C, c:: a: - ,~0 ,: a: <:: 0 >- 0 w w a: 0 ,: w 0 77 E, 1 58 75 E, 5 5 4 E, 1 .0 5 5 4 .0 .0 5 9 54 15 . 5 7E, 5S. 3 E, 2 5 E, E, E, E, c:: oO ,: 0 - a: 1 2 2 2 1 3 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 \0 \0 0 , , 2 2 1 0 1 0 0 0 J AN 83 ' 41 e.e. .sl nl E,41 19 1 ALSO ON EAAL I EA DATE S 3 U.S. Climatological Survey, 1984. JJ �TABLE 11 J J Building Permits and Valuation City of Ludington, 1980-1986 J I I I I I Building Classification I I ALTERATIONS & ADDITIONS NEW CONSTRUCTION YEAR No. of Permits TOTAL VALUATION Valuation No, of Permi-:s Valuation 145 94 51 $1,076,626 392,656 683,970 $4,621,012 545,048 326,221 218,827 _4,616,422 1980 - TOTAL Residential Non-residential 11 9 3 $3,544,386 3,077,07921 467,307 1981 - TOTAL Residential Non-Residential 2 4,071,374 5 176, 7103 3,894,664 128 94 34 1982 - TOTAL Residential Non-Residential l!. 136 84 52 1,103,353 786,733 5 316,620 2,956,592 6 1,853,239 1,563,373 4 289,866 1983 - TOTAL Residential Nonresidential §. 473,234 117 5,154,209 --0-- 77 6 473,2346 40 4,680,975 338,7557 4,342,220 1984 - TOTAL Residential Nonresidential 11. 973.149 413,537 559,612 118 627,240 194,336 432,904 1,600,389 60 58 1985 - TOTAL Residential Nonresidential li 1,491,953 8 1,301,0649 190,889 126 96 30 2,312,250 290,873 2,021,377 3,804,203 4 5 0 11 6 10 6 446,525 1,722,743 99 2,169,268 1986 - TOTAL li 248,845 355,800 81 8 Residential 1,473,898 90,725 18 Nonresidential 6 SOURCE: City of Ludington Building Department, 1986. NOTE: Residential permits do not indicate actual number of dwelling units constructed; for the total period, 55 permits were issued for a total or 160 new dwelling units, I I l Crosswinds, $2,300,000 2church, $135,000 30ow Chemical Co., $3,864,669 4Pine Way Townhomes, $1,465,273 5Addition to senior citizen apartments adjacent to Baywood Nursing Home (now Village Haus), $505,658 I 6Public, $178,228 7Memorial Medical Center, $4,031,000 8tudington Park Apartments, $1,018,980 9Public, $17,654 TABLE 12 State Equalized Value City of Ludington, 1980 - 1986 ~ Residential Commercial Industrial 1980 1981 1982 1983 1984 1985 1986 37,949,300 41,758,946 46,809,615 46,828,900 47,079,100 48,180,300 50,353,800 7,028,700 9,968,000 11,238,100 12,542,100 12,106,400 12,201,300 12,280,800 7,299,100 7,113,148 7,991,600 7,907,300 7,993,200 7,915,400 8,348,400 Source: City of Ludington, 1986. Personal Total Increase over Previous Year 17,212,300 18,551,000 16,578,650 16,786,900 17,569,450 18,910,200 21,197,250 69,489,400 77,391,994 82,617,965 84,065,200 84,748,150 87,207,200 92,180,250 16.32 11.37 6.75 1.75 0.81 2.90 5.70 �. ,1. -1/r••• - ••••• ••• T."!lliLE 13 Population and Housing Characteristics by Census Block Areas City of Ludington, 1980 Neighborhood Population Characteristics 1 2 569 187 32.9 49 8.6 33.8 52.0 917 209 22.8 177 19.3 39.6 53.0 204 3 Census Areas# 6 7 4 5 1,403 341 24.3 206 14. 7 34.5 52.7 442 111 25. 1 87 19.7 35.0 54.5 594 147 24.7 104 17.5 32.3 51.5 903 159 17 .6 320 35.4 50.0 58.8 670 107 16.0 301 44.9 60. l 60.7 401 573 208 269 508 200 138 62 31.0 385 260 125 32.5 547 447 100 18. 3 189 109 80 42.3 236 163 73 30.9 479 189 290 60.5 5.4 5.0 5.'5 5.3 11 Total 13* 12 9 10 229 66 28.8 28 12.2 28.0 47.6 562 159 28.3 80 14.2 26.6 56.9 1, 116 288 25.8 201 18.0 31.4 53.5 913 302 33.1 111 12.2 28.8 53.7 216 120 256 477 364 225 0 206 167 39 18.9 109 30 79 72.5 230 119 111 48.3 462 302 160 34.6 337 239 98 29 . 1 203 147 56 27 . 6 0 5.3 5.4 2.44 2.42 2.71 2.78 2.42 8 POPULATIOtl CHARACTERISTICS Total Population Pop. Less than 18 Years Percent Less than 18 Years Pop. 65 Years and Over Percent 65 Years and Over Median Age (In Years) Percent Female 564 55 173 2 30.7 3.6 79 0.0 14.0 0.0 30.3 23.6 52.6 1.8 8,937 2,251 25.2 1,743 19. 5 34.7 53.9 HOUSING CHARACTERISTICS Total Housing Units Occupied Housing Units Owner Occupied Renter Occupied Percent Renter Occupied Median Number of Rooms Per Unit rersons Per Unit 5.5+ 5.5+ 4.2 4.4 ' 5.5+ 3,821 co 35.6 5.5+ 5.4 2.85 2. 38 2. 55 2.32 2.52 1.87 2.29 2.06 13 37 73 10 0 17 8 11 32 51 37 18 307 0 5 4 3 4 15 1 7 12 11 9 4 75 Median Value of Owner Occupied Units $48,400 $24,800 $34,600 $35,800 $28,000 $29,900 $36,100 $16,300 $28,400 $27,500 $20,500 $19,500 $28,700 Median Value of Renter Occupied Units s Persons in Occupied Housing Units with more than One Person Per Room (overcrowding) Total Units Lacking Complete Plumbing for Exclusive Use 174 s 168 s 167 • Coast Guard Station and/or persons on ships in the harbor. SOURCE: U.S. Census, 1980. s 180 s 151 s 116 s 240 s 127 The census labeled this area "institutional". s 151 s 155 s 138 s 149 s 153 \D �FIGURE XII Pere Marquette Charter Township Future Land Use Map I I I I I LAKE MICHIGAN -i ~r,==,'--"·" I I I I I N Cl T O N PLAN MAP GENERAL DEVELOPMENT PATTERNS LEGEND □ CONSERVATION 1($.:J AGRICULTURE t~,J AGRICULTURE/RESIDENTIAL = ~ ~ - LOW DENSITY RESIDENTIAL MEDIUM DENSITY RESIDENTIAL COMMERCIAL LIGHT INDUSTRIAL (ill GENER.AL INDUSTRIAL WJJ AIRPORT DISTRICT COMMERCIAL STUDY A I - PROPOSED ACCESS . PERE I ' MARQUETTE CHARTER MASON COUNTY, MICHIGAN 69 - -- - - - -~ ~ - - -- ----- - TOWNSHIP �~ 'I APPENDIX C COMMUNITY SURVEY I I I I I I I I I I I 71 �Survey Methodology The City of Ludington Planning Commission conducted a survey of Ludington residents. A separate survey of residents was being conducted by the Ludington Cable TV Advisory Committee. It was decided to randomly select households to survey using a mail-out/mail-back format for both surveys. The sample was selected in such a way as to prevent duplication; no household received both surveys. Sample Selection Each survey was sent to over 501 households randomly distributed throughout the city. Therefore, 1,002 addresses were selected and every other address selected will receive the same survey. Since the 1980 Census identified 3,821 housing units in the City of Ludington, every fourth household was selected from the address listings included in the R. L. Polk City Director. In addition, another 50 households were selected at random to increase the sample size. In addition, copies of the survey were made available in City Hall for any city resident who was not included in the sample but wanted to participate in the survey. These surveys were printed on a different color paper so that they could be distinguished from the surveys that were randomly selected. Results Of the 501 Planning Commission surveys mailed out, 36 were returned as undeliverable. These are attributable to vacant units and errors in the address listings included in the Polk Directory. Of the 465 surveys that presumably reached a household, 203 were returned for a rate of return of 43.7 percent. This should be considered an excellent rate of return. An additional 25 surveys were picked up in City Hall and returned for a total of 228 surveys returned, representing a sample of about 6.0 percent of the total households in the city. The similarity in rates of return for the two surveys is an awe-inspiring indication of the accuracy of the random selection process. Of the 501 Cable TV surveys mailed out, 40 were returned as undeliverable. Of the 461 surveys that reached their destination, 228 were returned, a response rate of 49.S percent, again an excellent return. The results of the Planning Commission survey are shown on the following tables. The Cable TV survey has been tabulated elsewhere. 72 • l- �COMMUNITY SURVEY FORM Dear- Resident: I I I I I I I I I I The Ludington Planning Commlssion is worki.ng to update the City's Master Plan. This Plan is important as lt will be used to guide future growth in our community. In addition, the Downtown Development Authori.ty is seeki.ng directi.on for- future planning in the downtown area. Your input and suggestions are necessary to improve the "quality of life" for Ludington residents. We are requesti.ng your cooperation by answer-ing the following questions: 1. What characteri.stics do you li.ke best about living in Ludington? (Answer only 2) ----- Small Town Atmosphere Educational System Shopping Facilities Proximity to Northern Michigan ___ Proximity to Lake Michigan 2. What are the worst problems facing Ludington? --------3. ___ Other ______________ Lack of Jobs ------- Bad Streets Dilapidated Housing (Answer only 2) Lack of Recreation Facilities Lack of Activities for Youth Traffic Other Lack of Shopping Facilities What type of new residential development is needed most in the Ludington area? (Answer only 1) ----- More Single Family Homes More Apartments for Sr. Citizens - - -More Apartments --- Housing for Low Income Citizens Lakefront Condominium 4. Is there a need for additional recreational facilities in the City? Yes If yes, what types are needed most? Softball Fields --- (Answer only 3) --- Tennis Courts Lakefront Open Space Picnic Areas Marinas --- No ----- Neighborhood Playgrounds Other 73 Boat Launching Ramps Swimming Pools �S. How would you rate the following City services? Good Fair Poor Police Protection Fire Protection Water Services Sewer Service Street Maintenance Snow Removal Park Maintenance Zoning Enforcement 6. With respect to downtown Ludington, please check the one statement that best describes your shopping habits. I usually shop in downtown Ludington at least once per week. I usually shop in downtown Ludington at least once per month. I rarely shop in downtown Ludington. 7. With respect to shopping in the commerical areas east of Ludington, please check the one statement that best describes your shopping habits. --- I usually shop east of town at least once per week. I usually shop east of town at least once per month. --8. I rarely shop east of town. With respect to shopping in other communities, please indicate how frequently you shop: In Scottville times per year In Manistee times per year In Pentwater times per year In Muskegon 9. times per year In Grand Rapids times per year Other times per year I believe that the reason(s) more persons do not shop in downtown Ludington is(are): Inadequate Parking Poor Lighting --- Danger to Pedestrian Traffic Lack of Product Choice Unattractive appearance of the downtown area Uncompetitive Prices --- Other --------------------74 �~ I 10. Please check the one statement that best describes the parking situation in downtown Ludington. I find it easy to find a parking space when I chose to shop downtown. I I I I I I I I I I I do not have an easy time with parking because: Lighting is inadequate I have to park too far from where I want to shop --11. The building entrance closest to the parking area is unattractive or inconvenient The thing I really like about the downtown area is: The friendly service and personal care of the storekeepers The variety of stores and services available Downtown is close to where I live or work The number of parking spaces available Other 12. Does the City need more industrial deve~opment? Yes 13. Should the City use tax incentives to attract new industry to the area? --14. Yes No Please indicate which ward of the City you live in? 1st 15. No 4th 3rd 2nd 5th Don't know Check the statements that best describe your household: Homeowner Married Renter Single, Divorced, or Widowed --- Number of Children in Household Thank you for your cooperation. All answers are strictly confidential and will be used as an indicator of community support for proposals to be developed as a part of the Master Plan. PLEASE MAIL OR RETURN THE SURVEY FORM TO THE POLICE DEPARTMENT OR CITY HALL BY JULY 20, 1985. Sincerely, THE LUDINGTON PLANNING COMMISSION 75 - - -- - �- . - - - - - - - - - WEST MICHIGAN REGIONAL PLANNING Ludington Community Survey SINGLE QUESTION ANALYSIS NOTE: For statlstlcal purposes, some questions have been divided In these results. Where this Is the case, the number of the orlglnal survey question appears beside the question number. QUESTION NO. 1 QUESTION NO. 3 WHAT CHAJl.\crERISTICS 00 YOU LIKE ~ ABOUT LIVING IN LUDINGTON? WHAT TYPE OF NEW RESIDENTIAL DEVEI.OPMENT IS NEEDED ll>ST IN THE LUDINTON AREA? ANS DESCRIPTION RESP Na R1Psp0nse 4 0 NET PCT ANS DESCRIPTION RESP Na Response 24 10.:53 SINGLE FAM 49 · 21.49 24.02 2 SENIOR APTS 62 27.19 30.39 3 LAKEFRONT CONDOS 18 7.89 8.82 4 APARTMENTS 24 10.:53 11. 76 :5 LOW INCOME HSG. 80 ::S:5.09 39.22 1. 7:5 0 SMALL TOWN --..J --..J TOT PCT 17::S ~ SHOPPING FACILITIES ::s PROX TO LAKE MICH 4 EDUCATIONAL SYSTEM 7:5.88 12 :5.26 :5.36 164 71.9::S 7::S. 21 :57 2:5.00 2:5.4:5 PROX TO NORTH MICH 18 7.89 8.04 6 OTHER 11 4.82 4.91 228 MEAN NET PCT t/l 77.2::S :5 TOTAL TOT PCT TOTAL 228 MEAN 4.79 3. :54 QUEST ION NO. 2 WHAT ARE THE WORST PROBLEMS FACING LUDINGTON? QUESTION NO. 4 IS THER TOT PCT RESP Na R1Psp0nse 2 0.88 196 85.96 86.7::S 12 :5.26 :5. 31 HOUSING 37 16.2::S 16.37 4 LACK OF SHOPPING 74 ::S2.46 32.74 :5 RECREATION FACIL 13 :5.70 :5. 7:5 6 YOUTH ACTIVITIES 4::S 18.86 19.0::S 7 TRAFFIC 24 10.:53 10.62 8 OTHER 36 1:5. 79 1:5.9::S 0 JOBS 2 3 STREETS TOTAL 22B MEAN A NEED FOR ADDITIONAL RECREATIONAL FACILITIES IN THE CITY? NET PCT ANS DESCRIPTION 6.22 ANS DESCRIPTION RESP Na Response 22 9.6:5 117 :51. 32 :56.80 88 38.60 42.72 0 YES 2 NO TOTAL 228 TOT PCT MEAN NET PCT 1.42 ~ ,< ~ t/l ~ t/l �.-:~ . ~-(See survey question 114) QUESTION NO. 5 ANS DESCRIPTION RESP No Response 88 38.b0 SOFTBALL FIELDS 14 b. 14 10.00 2 TENNIS COURTS 20 8.77 14.29 3 MARINAS 34 14.91 24.29 4 PLAYGROUNDS 73 32.02 52.14 5 LAKEFRONT OPEN SPACE 48 21.05 34.29 b PICNIC AREAS 44 19.30 31.43 7 BOAT RAMPS 29 12.72 20.71 8 SWIMMING POOLS 24 10.:53 17. 14 9 OTHER 35 15.35 25.00 0 TOTAL MEAN 228 (See survey question 115) 7 HOii 1/0ut.D YOU RATE FIRE PROTECTIOl/7 WHAT TYPES OF RECREATIONAL FACILITIES ARE NEEDED MOST? TOT PCT QUESTION Nu. NET PCT ANS DESCRIPTION 0 RESP No Response TOT PCT NET PCT 3b 1:5. 79 GOOD 17b 77.19 91.67 2 FAIR 15 b.58 7.81 3 POOR l 0.44 0.52 TOTAL MEAN 228 1.v9 11.87 co " HOW 1/0ULD YOU RATE WATER SERVICES? HOW WOULD YOU RATE POLICE PROTECTION? ANS DESCRIPTION RESP No Response 37 lb.23 GOOD 121 53.07 b3.3:5 2 FAIR b4 28.07 33.51 3 POOR b 2.63 3.14 0 TOTAL 228 (See survey quest ion 115) QUESTION NO. 0 (See survey question f/5) QUESTION NO. b TOT PCT MEAN NET PCT ANS DESCRIPTION RESP No Response 42 18.42 GOOD 149 b:5.3:5 80.11 2 FAIR 31 13.b0 1b.b7 3 POOR b 2.b3 3.23 0 1.40 TOTAL 228 TOT PCT MEAN NET PCT 1.23 �- - - (See survey question 115) auEsTION NO. 9 QUESTION No. 12 HOW WOULD YOU RATE SEWER SERVICE? HOii WOULD YOU RATE PARK MAINTENANCE SERVICE? TOT PCT NET PCT ANS DESCRIPTION RESP No Response 42 18.42 14:5 63.60 77.96 36 1:5.79 19.3:5 5 2.19 2.69 0 GOOD FAIR 2 POOR 3 (See survey ques~ion f/5) MEAN 228 TOTAL ANS DESCRIPTION 0 RESP No Response NET PCT 3:5 1:5. 3:5 GOOD 112 49.12 :58.03 2 FAIR 70 30.70 36.27 3 POOR 11 4.82 :5.70 1 .2:5 TOTAL 228 QUESTION No. (See survey question //5) QUESTION NO. 10 TOT PCT 13 MEAN 1.48 (See survey question //5) HOW WOULD YOU RATE ZONING ENFORCEMENT SERVICE? HOW WOULD YOU RATE STREET MAINTENANCE? ANS DESCR I F'T ION --.J '° ANS DESCRIPTION RESP No Response 39 17. 11 GOOD 72 31.:58 38. 10 2 FAIR 88 38.60 46.:56 3 POOR 29 12.72 1:5.34 0 TOTAL 228 ouESTION NO. 11 TOT PCT MEAN NET PCT 1. 77 (See survey question 115) HOW WOULD YOU RATE SNOW REHOVAL SERVICE? ANS DES CR I PT ION RESP No Response 37 16.23 GOOD 120 :52.63 62.83 2 FAIR 61 26.7:5 31.94 3 POOR 10 4.39 :5.24 0 TOTAL 228 TOT PCT MEAN NET PCT 1.42 0 RESP TOT PCT NET PCT No Response 47 20.61 GOOD 48 21.0:5 20.52 2 FAIR 102 44.74 :56.3:5 3 POOR 31 13.60 17. 13 TOTAL 228 MEAN 1.91 �•.• •• - QUESTION NO. 14 □UESTION No. (See survey question 116) RESP No Response :Sl 0 DOWNTOWN-1/WEEK 2 :s 92 DOWNTOWN-I/MONTH DOWNTOWN-RARELY 59 46 TOTAL 228 TOT PCT NET PCT 25.88 20.18 MEAN ANS DESCRIPTION 0 RESP TOT F'CT NET PCT No Response 65 28.51 46.70 (0) 29 12.72 17.79 29.95 2 (1-3) 83 36.40 :50.92 23 . 35 3 (4-6) 30 13. 16 18.40 1.77 4 (7-12) 10 4.39 6.13 5 <MORE THAN 12) 11 4.82 6.7:5 13.60 40 . 35 (See survey question f/8) HOW OFTEN 00 YOU SHOP IN SCOTTVILLE? HOW OFTEN 00 YOU SHOP IN DOWNTOWN LUDINGTON? ANS DESCRIPTION 16 TOTAL 228 MEAN 2.33 0 co QUESTION No . 15 QUESTION No. 17 (See survey question 117) HCM OFTEN 00 YOU SHOP IN MANISTEE? HOii OFTEN 00 YOU SHOP EAST OF LUDINGTON? TOT PCT NET PCT ANS DESCRIPTION RESP No Response 32 14.04 EAST-I/WEEK 160 70.18 81.63 0 EAST-I/MONTH 25 10.96 12.76 3 EAST-RARELY 11 4.82 5. 61 228 MEAN ANS DESCRIPTION 0 2 TOTAL (See survey question 118) 1.24 RESP TOT PCT NET PCT No Response 79 34.21 (0) 50 21.93 33.33 2 <1-3) 71 31.14 47.33 3 (4-6) 13 5.70 8.67 4 (7-12) 15 6.58 10.00 5 (MORE THAN 12) l 0.44 0.67 TOTAL 228 MEAN 1.97 �.. -1- -\- -f.. -I-I-I- ., 1111 11111 (See survey question 118) 18 QUEST ION NO. 1111 . . . . - QUEST ION NO. 20 (See survey question 1/8) HOW OITEN DO YOU SHOP IN GRAND RAPIDS? HOW OTTEN DO YOU SHOP IN PENT\lATER? NET PCT TOT PCT ANS OESCR IPT ION RESP No Response 9b 42.11 0 No Response bO 2b,32 (0) 95 41.b7 71.97 1 10) 4:5 19.74 2b,79 2 ( 1-3) 32 14.04 24.24 2 I 1-3) 72 31.5B 42.86 3 (4-bl 2 O.BB 1.:52 3 14-bl 32 14.04 19.05 4 17-12) 2 0.8B 1.:52 4 17-12) 12 :5.2b 7.14 5 (MORE THAN 121 1 0.44 0.7b :5 (NORE THAN 12) 3.07 4. 17 0 TOTAL -- 1. 3:5 MEAN 22B R.E SP ANS DESCRIPTION 7 TOTAL 22B TOT PCT MEAN NET PCT 2.19 00 _. QUESTION NO. 19 ( See SU rvey quest ion 118) QUESTION NO. 21 HOW OITEN DO YOU SHOP ELSEWHERE? HOW OITEND DO YOU SHOP IN MUSKEGON? TOT PCT NET PCT ANS OESCR I PT ION RESP No Response 59 2:5.BB (0) 34 14.91 :20.12 2 (1-3) b5 2B.:51 3B.4b 3 <4 - bl 27 11.B4 1:5,9B 4 (7-12) 33 14.47 19.:53 5 <MORE THAN 12> 10 4.39 :5.92 0 TOTAL (See survey question 1/8) 228 MEAN ANS OESCR I PTI ON 0 2.53 RESP No Response TOT PCT NET PCT 17b 77.19 (0) 18 7.89 34.b2 2 (1-3) 1 :5 b.5B 2B.B5 3 14-6) 11 4.B2 :21. 15 4 17-12) 6 2.b3 11.54 5 <NORE THAN 12) 4 1.75 7.69 TOTAL 22B MEAN 2.40 ) �,. -•• ouEsTioN NO. 22 (See survey question 119) ouEsTtoN No. 24 I BELIEVE THAT THE REASON(S) MORE PERSONS DO NOT SHOP IN DOWNTOWN LUDINGTON IS (ARE): ANS DESCR I PTI ON 0 RESP TOT PCT NET PCT No Response 37 16.23 INADEQUATE PARKING 13 !5.70 6.81 3 1. 32 1.57 (See survey question till) THE THING I Rl!ALLY LIKE ABOtrr THE DOWNTOWN AREA IS: ANS DESCRIPTION 0 RESP TOT PCT NET PCT No Response 18 7.89 FRIENDLY SERVICE 83 36.40 39.:52 2 VARIETY OF STORES 16 7.02 7.62 127 :55.70 60.48 2 POOR LIGHTING 3 DANGER TO PEDS 18 7.89 9.42 3 CLOSE TO HOME OR WK. 4 PRODUCT CHOICE 1!54 67.!54 80.63 4 PLENTY OF PARKING 23 10.09 10.95 !5 APPEARANCE '.2!5 10.96 13.09 5 OTHER 16 7.02 7.62 6 PRICES 128 !56.14 67.02 7 OTHER 27 11.84 14. 14 TOTAL 228 MEAN TOTAL 228 MEAN 3. 18 9.27 N co QUESTION NO. 2:s QUESTION No. 25 (See survey quest ion f/10) WHIOI BEST DESCaIBES THE PARKING SITUATION IN DOWNTOWN LUDINGTON? TOT PCT NET PCT ANS DESCRIPTION RESP No Response 1 !5 6.58 191 83. 77 89.67 0 EASY NOT EASY-LIGHTING 3 1. 32 1. 41 3 NOT EASY-TOO FAR 41 17.98 19.25 4 NOT EASY-BAO ENTR. 21 9.21 9.86 TOTAL 228 MEAN ANS DESCRIPTION RESP No Response 6 2.63 206 90.35 92.79 16 7.02 7.21 0 2 l. 90 (See survey question f/12) DOES THE CITY NEED MORE INDUSTRIAL DEVELOPMENT? YES 2 NO TOTAL 228 TOT PCT MEAN NET PCT 1.07 �.. .. - -- - - I- - ... - - - - - .. QUESTION No. 20 QUESTION NO. 28 (See survey question f/13) RESP No Response 0 YES NO 2 TOTAL TOT PCT ANS DESCRIPTION NET PCT 0 TOT PCT NET PCT cl•i , 1.32 181 79.39 80.44 32 14.04 14.22 149 o:s. 3:5 00.22 SINGLE, ETC. oO 20.32 20.07 5 0 CHILDREN 06 28.95 29.33 b .1 CHILD 27 11.84 12.00 7 2 CHILDREN 3:5 15.35 1 :s. :so 8 3+ CHILDREN 23 10.09 10.22 178 78.07 83.18 3:5 1:5. 3:5 10.30 2 RENTER 1.lo 3 MARRIED 4 HOMEOWNER (X) w TOTAL QUESTION No. 27 ( See survey quest ion //14) TOT PCT NET PCT No Response 20 8.77 1ST 30 13. lo 14.42 2 2ND 4o 20.18 22.12 3 3RD 28 12.28 13.40 4 4TH 25 10.90 12.02 5 5TH 44 19.30 21. 1:5 b DON'T KNOW 35 15.35 lo.83 TOTAL 228 ANS DESCRIPTION 0 WHITE 2 RESP No Respons• 8.24 BLUE 3.~4 TOT PCT NET PCT J 0.,44 (MAILED> 2(•2 88.60 88.9'1 (PICKED UP) 2:5 10.96 11. 01 TOTAL MEAN MEAN COLOR OF PAPER RESP 0 228 QUESTION NO. 29 PLEASE INDICATE WHICH WARD OF TIIE CITY YOU LIVE IN? ANS DESCRIPTION , . :?ZB . 1 . (See survey question f/15) 3 o.14 MEAN RESP No Response 14 228 , . DESCRIBE YOUR HOUSEHOLD: SHOULD THE CITY USE TAX INCENTIVES TO ATTRACT NEW INDUSTRY TO THE AREA? ANS DESCRIPTION . . MEAN I. 11 �,. CITY OF LUDINGTON PLAN COMPREHENSIVE !~- ~ \~~ ',, ' G LINCOLN LAKE \l-, \, I lj I I •••. WlJ' [Ii 1:: :!:~:~1~1r~1 i 1:: rn 111 __ mii~! 1: t m~ IDID@II 1:111111 ~l:iflldii!iliii IiiMIii.ii lllilllii 111: ffllNLJ It/~ tm8188 EB ; 1111,! !; !~1i;~ t:}~1!111,:~;; i!i\ll b ' ::\f n, . . ;_r~ t -~ ti _;: w////®Ii~ · i....-~./~~~i~~i~t~~~~~~~~~v\~ t)Il [\\J\\\@t fE+%a // W///§~ , ////,"o"o"oWo"o"o ❖❖• :: .:::::::::: ~}{~ :~:~:~=~~3 ·.-::.~ 1;){~~~ r- 11 .... ... .... : .:~ 1 ' ; ~:~ ;z,::r. 1:::::,:1 1:mrn k'\,vou,,uoouoououc i: \;,:.;:;.:,:-:•:;:;:;:f:: '••:;:;:;:;:J;. : C>'• C<• r1;; r::::=:= :::1::::: tJ::::~$!:1:1:1:i --:r. - ~ C") G) b < ~ MJl1mmq :~~t r Llil lftH~~/}~::TI tillt ,.·.·.·.·.·.· · · · · ·•:❖-.-,,,,nJ°'i· E] [;!'.:::l r::1;:,;i1:::,;;;::::;1 ii:\\i,::::1=1 [~~~~r,;rr:;,~:l~ , v' .• .\ ~- " ,,.. ".,._ ">) ' z I -, ~ . ) r ~ ; ~ ~ _. ·. ~-~ I'l'\ •-. ..: - \: . - \ ':. ~~' ~ ~ -:., oUV o .;;.V,,; o_oiJo0 o - - - \ V .J V • • V O 0 \ 1 1 - -- . ]jl\I\i\:::::::Iii '· '-... - - ·-- I I•. , ~".;},.V ":-t-;•:•.•.•, . ....•.•, . V:. ·, ...• .. ' ,.,:~!,:-?~;?:'J a:;:} FUTURE LAND USE PLAN ~ ~ '[ill:::::{. ffiill/:: ····;i) @·········· ·.• .•,•,· •.•.•,•,•, ..·.······ ·.·.·..· lli§=::;:::.. ····· @ill1filw mill I GENERAL RESIDENTIAL ·1i"••··· ::=•:•• ::, ~ RESIDENTIAL / RECREATIONAL / OFFICE DEVELOPMENT ooi::.··· ·•·•••·••• .·.·.·•:• ···· Em·· ····•;:J w······· ;::::::::: §~:I:: :::::::::! ITTI~ I~ IT ~ ~ o~o~~- ~ Mlffil lliiru fu ~o=fffffn::. ~ ....... ~~ Ifill] OOJIErn rm [I ";;,;:i::: • • PUBLIC, INSTITUTIONAL AND RECREATIONAL ~~<:J NEIGHBORHOOD SHOPPING U:::H LOW INTENSITY COMMERCIAL ~ GENERAL COMMERCIAL ~ - GATEWAY/ CITY ENTRANCE S CENTRAL BUSINESS DISTRICT ~ WATERFRONT / MARINE loo.ffil LIMITED INDUSTRIAL ~ GENERAL INDUSTRIAL NOTE: The numbers on tho map correspond to a narrative description of the proposed uses found In the Development Trends and Future Land Use section of the Compre hens lve Plan . . .. l --~ -· I•==~::~ ?.•~.,-• <..__, ~ I _______, _,-:... M1C!1IG AN - l Dt= PA""l T"ME::NT Of -, v ..::p, a - ()(' , RAN S PO~ TAT I ON I ?':16 i � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Wyckoff Planning and Zoning Collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Planning & Zoning Center (Lansing, Mich.) (Organization) Wyckoff, Mark A. Description An account of the resource Municipal master plans and zoning ordinances from across the state of Michigan, spanning from the 1960s to the early 2020s. The bulk of the collection was compiled by urban planner Mark Wyckoff over the course of his career as the founder and principal planner of the Planning and Zoning Center in Lansing, Michigan. Some additions have been made to the collection by municipalities since it was transferred to Grand Valley State University. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Michigan Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1960/2023 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/870">Planning and Zoning Center Collection (RHC-240)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/NoC-US/1.0/">No Copyright - United States</a> Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Comprehensive plan publications Master plan reports Zoning--Michigan Zoning--Maps Maps Land use--planning Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-240 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Language A language of the resource eng Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Ludington_Comprehensive-Plan_1987 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Ludington Planning Commission, City of Ludington, Mason County, Michigan Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1987 Title A name given to the resource Ludington Comprehensive Plan Description An account of the resource The Ludington Comprehensive Plan was prepared by the Ludington Planning Commission with assistance from the West Michigan Regional Planning Commission in 1987. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource West Michigan Regional Planning Commission (consultant) Subject The topic of the resource Comprehensive plan publications Ludington (Mich.) Mason County (Mich.) Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/870">Planning and Zoning Center Collection (RHC-240)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/NoC-US/1.0/">No Copyright - United States</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f41b739477588872d2d0e1f05288c9f1.pdf 56a086a73e81d0288bc1628322cae080 PDF Text Text Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department Estevan Luevano Interview Interviewed by Andrew Schlewitz June 18, 2016 Transcript AS: Alright, this is Andrew Schlewitz, and I'm here today with Estevan Luevano in the Hart Public Library in Hart, Michigan, on the eighteenth of June 2016. This oral history is being collected as part of the Growing Community Project, which is supported in part by a grant from the National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Program. So, thanks, Estevan, for taking the time to be interviewed. EL: No problem. AS: So, can you, for the record, say your full name and then spell it? EL: Okay, my name is Estevan Luevano. It is spelled E-s-t-e-v-a-n, Luevano L-u-e-v-a-n-o. AS: Okay, do any of those letters have accents? EL: No. AS: No, you don't use it. So where were you born? 1 �Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department EL: I was born in San Juan, Texas. AS: San Juan, Texas. Okay and what county is that in Texas? EL: That's Hidalgo County. AS: Hidalgo, okay. Is that where you grew up as well? EL: Yeah, part of my life, yes. AS: Okay, so where did you go from there then? You said part of my life. EL: Yep, we're migrants. We traveled ever since I remember. We used to travel from Texas to Michigan and back to Texas. Then one year we traveled from Texas to Michigan to Iowa, Iowa to Texas. AS: Wow. Can you remember that year? EL: Uh, no, I was like maybe ten, eleven years old. AS: When were you born? EL: I was born in nineteen sixty-seven. AS: Okay, how many people are in your family? EL: It’s my dad, my mom, three brothers, and two sisters and me. Eight of us. AS: Were you in the middle there? EL: I'm the oldest of the boys… AS: The oldest of the boys. And your two sisters then? EL: My sisters… one of my sisters is the oldest, then me, then my brothers, then my little sister. AS: Okay. Did you have other family around you? EL: Yes. We came up from Texas with my grandpa and my uncles and one of my uncles came from Florida down here. They went to Florida instead of Texas. AS: Okay, where are your parents from? EL: My parents are from Texas as well. AS: Okay, so would you say you're like third or fourth generation Chicano? EL: I don't know because my grandpa and grandma were from Texas, too. AS: Okay, so you've been there a long time? EL: Yes. AS: Many generations. EL: Yes. 2 �Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department AS: What are your family members' names, like your father and mother? Siblings? EL: My father is Hilario “G” Guadalupe Luevano. And my mother is [?] Luevano. AS: Okay and then your siblings? EL: My older sister is... her real name right now is Irman Holsa [?]. AS: Okay. EL: And then my brother, Hilario Guadalupe Luevano Junior, and then my other brothers, Sylvester Luevano and then Hector Luevano, and then my little sister, Elise [?] Luevano. AS: Okay. What was your grandpa's name? EL: My grandpa's name was Tereso [?]. AS: Tereso [?]. And what are your most vivid or starkest, clearest memories of childhood? EL: Well, my grandfather used to have a business, semi business. AS: Oh. EL: A truck driving company. It was Luevano and Sons. And that's the reason he decided to migrate this way, because he used to do all of the oranges and fruits in Texas. Well, somebody told him that over here they had pickles and cherries and, you know, all that kind of stuff, too. So, he decided to come over here to try it out and he brought two semis and one two-ton truck with them. And then they liked it, so they started coming up here. AS: Okay. EL: And then they worked for Chase Farms and Miles Chase asked him if they knew any more people they can work with, you know, work in the fields for them. So, he started asking people around over there and started bringing people in and people started coming with my grandpa because there were people they would charge people to bring him over here. My grandpa never charged nobody. He said, do you want to come in here? Well, I don't think my truck and my car make it here so we don't make it. We stop and fix it because my uncles were mechanics, my dad, my uncle Greg, everybody's a mechanic. So, he said, “if you break down the road, we stop and fix it or we put it on top of the semi. AS: Did that ever happen? EL: Oh yeah, sometimes we stopped and fixed the car and, you know, at the rest area. We used to come from Texas… this over here. It's kind of funny because I go to Texas and I can make it in thirty-six hours with, you know, with sleep and stuff. Or if I don't want to sleep, you know, straight at twenty-four hours or whatever, but we used to last four days to get here because that's how many people were in the back, the two semis were in front and then the two-ton truck, then all the cars behind it. AS: So, how many people would go? I imagine it started out with a few. And then by the end…? EL: By the end, there was like fifteen cars behind the trucks. AS: Wow. 3 �Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department EL: That's how many people would come with my grandpa. And the reason why, because, you know, other people would charge people to bring them over here. And my grandpa said, as long as, you know, you can make it over, just come behind me… AS: Follow me. EL: ...follow me. And my grandfather stayed in the back and then somebody broke down and he, you know, passed all the semis and go off the road and the semi driver, you know, my uncle knew when my grandfather passed him, that something happened. So, they’d all stop and see what happened. And then the semis would go to a truck stop and the rest of them are going to the rest area and the trucks will get fuel and stuff and wait for the people, you know, for all the other people to get there. AS: So, you always stuck together. EL: Oh yeah. Whenever my grandfather led and he let nobody, you know, break down; my dad and my uncles would fix it. You know, if they couldn’t fix it, they’d find somewhere to put it on top of one of those semis. And then they would bring it to Michigan and then drop it and then they'd fix it here, you know. But if they could fix it on the road, they would fix it on the road. AS: What time of year did you leave for Michigan? EL: We were here just for… we’d get here and we never picked asparagus. We always picked just strawberries, cherries and pickles, and we never picked apples. And then we would take off because the trucks had to be there for the orange season and all that stuff for down in Texas. And one year, after the pickle season, we went to Iowa. AS: What did you do in Iowa? EL: Well, you know, we didn’t take the semis out there, you know; we didn’t take the trucks. The trucks decided to stay that year. All the trucks stayed here and my uncle ran them here. You know, Chase [?] had a lot of, you know, he said, “you buy a freezer, you know, refrigerator trailer. You’ve got work all year round.” So that's when my uncle, Denny [?], and my uncle, Greg [?], decided to stay here and run the trucks and bought a refrigerator trailer for the truck for one of them. He started driving for a trade farm, and then my dad would come over here and drive a truck and we would go out in the fields. My dad would go drive the truck for my uncle or for my grandfather. AS: So, your uncle settled here? EL: My uncle settled here. AS: Okay. Have you settled here? EL: We settled here in nineteen eighty-one. My dad decided, you know, at first, we stayed two years in Texas because of school. He knew we weren’t getting a real good, you know, education because we're going back and forth with him. Matter of fact, well I’m going to say it anyways. I don't know how to read real good or spell real because of that. Because back then, like, the teacher didn't care, you know, they just passed you. AS: Oh, really? EL: Yep. 4 �Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department AS: What's that called? Social promotion or something like that. EL: They just wanted… because you're a migrant and they just want you to be at the school at that day for the count. AS: For the county, yeah. EL: And, you know, when I grew up, I grew up after I got out of school, I worked, you know, and I did my homework when I got home, but, you know, didn't study very much. AS: Yeah, plus your year was chopped up. EL: Yeah, and then we stayed there two years and then my dad was in Texas and then come over here and then my dad had a good job, but then he started having problems with their… because he was a good truck driver. So, the company he was driving for bought a brand-new truck and trailer and gave it to him and the people that were there, they had more years there, kind of got mad because he got the brand-new semi. So, they started doing stuff to the truck. Then my dad had a nervous breakdown. And then my Uncle Phil said, “I don't know what you're doing over here. There's trucks over here you can drive.” So, my dad decided, “well, I'm going to go over there for vacation” for a couple of, you know, the doctor told him to take a couple months of vacation. So, he took three months of vacation. We came up here and we worked in the fields and he drove a truck for my uncle. And then that was in 1981 when he decided to stay here. So, I've been here since [nineteen] eighty-one. I graduated in [nineteen] eightysix... AS: Okay, from Hart High School? EL: Nope. From Walkerville High School. AS: Walkerville, okay. So, the first time you came up here, what did you think? EL: Well, the first time we came up here, I was too little to remember, but when we were younger, you know, nine, ten years old, we used to go help my mom, you know, in the pickles, you know, to pick pickles and stuff. We were not working. We just out there in the fields, you know, playing around. But at the age of thirteen, that's when we started picking pickles and stuff, you know, in the young age and ever since then, till I graduated. You know, since thirteen until I graduated. And then during the wintertime, we lived so close to the factory at Chase’s that I would get home and Miles would pick me up and say, “hey, do you want to work?” He picked me up and would take me. He’s the one that showed me how to drive a forklift. I never knew how to. You know, I was fourteen years old and he showed me how to drive a forklift. And then he would pick me up every time and I would drive a forklift. Okay, so I'd be unloading trucks out in the skill building and stuff. AS: So, like taking out the pallets and stuff? EL: Yep. AS: So, you picked and you drove a forklift. Did you have any other jobs? EL: Yes, well, I took the vocational center. I went to the vocational center and graduated high school. And I took diesel there because my uncle had trucks and my dad. And then from there, you know, Miles wanted me to drive trucks, you know. So, then my uncle said my dad decided to sell everything and I said, “why are you selling everything? I want to drive the truck.” And my uncle says, “you want to drive 5 �Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department the truck for real? I'll set you up with somebody, my brother out of Hesperia and you can drive a truck for me. If you like it, we’ll buy a brand-new truck.” But the reason that my uncle sold everything is because my dad couldn't drive anymore. He had an accident with a semi. He had an accident in a vehicle and he was not the driver. It was my brother driving. And somebody t-boned him and didn't stop at the stop sign and my dad got hurt pretty bad. Matter of fact, he's got some of his nerves are pinched, some of his vertebrae are pinching his nerves in his neck. But they want to do surgery because he's allergic to the anesthetic, he has diabetes, and he's got a heart murmur. AS: Oh, no. EL: So they told him that no, they won’t operate on him. He’s losing feeling on his arm and that's the arm that he's shifted gears and he says, you know, “I don't want to drive like that because I might have an accident and I don't want to kill somebody in an accident.” So, he stopped driving. AS: So, what year then did you start to drive the truck? EL: At an early age because my uncle and my dad showed us how to move the truck where my dad parked it, so we could put fuel in it. So, I was like sixteen, seventeen years old. I can move it, back it up, and that's it, because that's all he let us do. [Laughter] But, you know, and Miles, when I graduated, I was nineteen, he said, “hey, I want you to get in that truck and go to Paul’s” - his son’s place. So I drove it all the way to Paul’s and Paul would be waiting there for me and he said, “okay, now back it up here.” So, I’d back it up and I thought I was going to get something. I would back it up there and he’d say, “you did good. Now go back.” And it was about eight or ten miles away from the plant, you know. AS: So, they are like testing you? EL: Yeah, they were, you know, so I would drive it back. And then a friend of mine, his dad is Jerry Frick, they own Walkerville Well Drilling, and they knew I graduated from the vocational center for a diesel mechanic. And one day they came over there to Chase and Jerry offered me a job working on the trucks. And I couldn’t let that go because at that time, I was only getting like five-fifty an hour at Chase Farms. And when Jerry showed up, he says, “I'll pay you ten dollars an hour at my place.” And I couldn't refuse from five-fifty to ten dollars an hour. AS: Sure. EL: So, I said, “well, let me give Michael two weeks’ notice before I move over there.” He said, “I'll let you do that.” When I went and talked to Miles, Miles wasn’t here. He was in Belize because they were trying to buy land over there, too, for producing over there... I don't know what. And I told Michael, “Miles isn’t here, but I'm talking to you. I would like a raise because all the forklift drivers - I've been here more than the forklift drivers - and I'm working at the Brown garage, working on trucks, working on this mechanical work on the forklift and stuff like that. And I'm only getting five-fifty [dollars an hour]. I know they're getting eight, eight-fifty an hour. I would like to go up to eight ninety-five an hour.” And he said, “well, I just gave you a raise. Yeah, a twenty-five-cent raise.” But them guys had been here less than I'd been here and they’re getting paid more money. And he said, “well, I already give you a raise.” I said, “well, I'm going to give you a two-week’s notice.” He said, “well, you don't have to. You can leave right now if you want to. AS: Wow. 6 �Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department EL: I think he thought that I was kidding. I wasn't. And I said, “okay, Friday will be my last day.” And Friday was the next day; that happened on a Thursday. So, I loaded up my toolbox and my tools on my truck. And that Friday he said, “are you leaving?” And I said, “you told me I could go. I’ll see you later.” And then I started working for Walkerville Well Drilling on that Monday, I started on Monday. And then when Miles came back from Belize, he went and ordered a pipe cutter and I'm the only one in the shop that he asked me, you know, how to use the pipe cutter and stuff. And I said, “yeah, I used it over there at Chase, you know, I know how to use it.” Okay, come here, link this link and Miles was coming to pick it up. So, when he came and picked it up, they called me in the shop, “hey, I put it in his trunk.” So, I went and put it in his trunk. He was waiting for me outside and said, “how come you couldn’t wait for me to get back?” I said, “because I talked to Michael and Michael said he would not give me a raise.” He said, “well, if I was here, I would give you a raise. I would give you what you wanted, but come back and I'll give you what you wanted.” I said, “well, they’re paying me more money here than what I wanted over there. They’re paying me ten dollars an hour here.” And he said, “well, I can't pay you that much, but I would like you to come back.” And I said, “well, I can’t. I already got obligated to work here.” So, I stayed there for five years with Walkerville Well Drilling, and then my friend, you know, he knew I was a mechanic and stuff, he said, “hey, they’re hiring mechanics over here.” I said, “where?” He says, “North American Factories in Whitehall [?].” I said, “I got a good job getting paid ten dollars an hour.” He said they paid fifteen over here. So, the only way I could make an application there is to go to Michigan Works and they had a test for me to do and stuff. And I did that and I didn't think they were going to call me because I didn't. I didn't think I did good on the test. I must have done good on the test because they called me for a job interview. I went over there for the job interview and he asked me why I wanted to quit Walkerville Well Drilling. And I said, “well, it’s more money. I've been there five years and I never got a raise, you know?” And he says, “well, if you get hired in here, it'll be twelve ninety-five. And then I have two years or less than that and if they think that you learn everything and you can get top raises. Fifteen ninety-five.” And I said okay. “We’ve got to start you from the very beginning, we just can't throw you in as a mechanic.” I said, “okay, and how much does that pay?” Fifteen ninety-five, mechanics get paid more than that.” So, I said, “well, if mechanics get paid more than that, I should start working here and maybe I can make it into a mechanic.” So, I did the interview, I didn't think they were going to hire me and they called me. They said, “I want you to come to work Monday.” And that was on Wednesday. So, on Wednesday morning, they called me Wednesday morning before I went to the other job and I told Jerry, you know, “I got a job offer at this other place.” And he said, “well, I don't want you to leave, so we can talk about what they're going to pay me.” And he said, “I can't do that.” And I said, “well, Friday will be my last day.” So, Friday was my last day. And I wanted to give him a two-week notice, but the other job wanted me on Monday and I couldn't lose that opportunity and I'm glad I didn’t. I've been in my job for twenty-one years and I'm getting paid twenty-four sixty an hour as a mechanic. AS: As a mechanic. How long did it take you to become a mechanic there? EL: It took me five years to become a mechanic, but I'm glad I did it, because after I became a mechanic, I became a Journeyman and they sent me to school for welding, for everything they wanted me to go to school for. You know, I struggled at school because, you know, my spelling wasn't very good and my reading wasn't very good. But I still passed the classes and I got my certificate for the Labor Board, and 7 �Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department I'm a Journeyman and I can work on equipment - heavy, heavy machinery. And it took me a while to come to days, but I'm on the day shift. I'm third in seniority in maintenance. And when my group leader ain’t there, I’m the group leader. AS: So, it was a good move? EL: It was a good move, yes. AS: Where do you live now? EL: I live in Hesperia. AS: In Hesperia, okay. EL: I moved from Walkerville to Hesperia in [nineteen] ninety-two when I bought my first place. And I wasn't married, so, you know, a single white trailer house with a garage was okay. And then later on, you know, I got married. AS: When did you get married? EL: I got married twice. AS: Okay. EL: First I got married and it didn't work out. It lasted not even a year. We got a divorce. And then a couple of months later, I met my wife and we starting going out. She's from Mexico. She's from… where do you call it? She's from Mexico and she's from Oaxaca, Mexico. AS: Oaxaca? EL: Yeah, and we started going out. And at first, she came over here with her sister from Houston and her sisters came over here with her boyfriend and they came from Houston, but he had brothers in Washington. His family was in Washington. They stayed here for two years. I went out with my wife, went out with her for a year and his brothers told them to move to Washington and they were going to move to Washington. And I didn't know what to do because she was going to leave. So, at that time, I didn't know if I should propose to her because I had just gone through a divorce a year ago, you know, and stuff like that. I didn't want to go through it again. But I'm glad I told her not to leave [laughter] because we've been married ten years. AS: Do you have children? EL: Yes, well, first my little daughter was born and then we lost one. She had a miscarriage and she called me in the bathroom; I went over there and I'm like, wow, I never seen anything like it. It came out like a little egg, like it was still in the pouch, it came out. And he was about an inch and a half long, the baby. And you can see his little feet, little arms like, you know, in the fetal position. But he didn't have his face. No eyes, no nothing like, you know, like it was just starting to develop. [?]: Sorry to interrupt, guys, but I just got a phone call. Make sure you get your picture taken across at the community center before you leave. I didn’t want anyone to forget. AS: Alright, thank you. 8 �Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department EL: And seeing that, you know, upset me a little bit. AS: Sure. EL: And upset my wife a little bit, but, you know. They told us he was going to live because two days before that, she started bleeding and we went to the hospital. And they told us that the baby was not in the... where it’s supposed to be. It was in the tube. It was growing in the tube. And that's how come it only grew that much because, you know, that's how far it could grow in the tube and then it decided to... she started to have labor pains that day and she didn't know why. But that's why, because the baby was coming out. But, you know, we tried again and we're blessed with Stellan [?] Jr. and he's five now. AS: Okay, and what's the first child's name? EL: My first child is Yasmine [?] Marie Luevano. AS: It's my granddaughter's name, too. EL: And my son is Estevan Luevano, Jr. And then my wife wanted another one, so we tried and she couldn’t. We didn’t know why she couldn’t get pregnant. So, we went to the doctor and the doctor told her the monthly cycles are lasting too long. That's how come you can't get pregnant. They should last only five days. And my wife was, well, they were lasting like fifteen, twenty days. So, they told her that the best thing they can do, you know, for her for that. And then they found out that her gallbladder was bad, too. So, they said, “well, we can go in there and take your gallbladder out and then go in there and burn the blood cells that make you, you know, go to her monthly cycle.” And my wife said, “well, we wanted to have another baby, but we couldn’t have one.” And they said, “I don't think you can have another baby.” Okay, so we made the appointment in two months to go do surgery because they told us she couldn’t get pregnant. The day of the surgery, we walked in the hospital and [?] stayed with the kids, and they put everything… they started everything, put in her I.V. on and they didn't start, you know, putting her to sleep because the doctor was still in surgery for another patient. So, you know, they just prepped her up to get her ready. She was already hooked up to everything. But they had to check her blood and check her hearing before the surgery. Then the lady that put her to sleep came in there and said, “hey, I need to talk to one of you guys outside.” So, the head nurse went outside and talked to her and she came back in there and started unhooking everything. I'm like, “What? What are you doing?” “Well, the surgery isn’t going to happen today.” I said, “why?” He said, “your doctor is going to be here to tell you why.” Then she went outside and they told her, yeah, you can tell them why. So, she came in and said, “well, they told us that we can tell you why - she's pregnant.” What do you mean she’s pregnant? The Doctor told her she couldn’t get pregnant. “Well, she's pregnant. We don't know how long, but she's pregnant.” AS: Wow. EL: And then that's when my son was born - the other one. And so, you know, it was a blessing of God, so I name him Isaiah Christian Luevano. So, he's one and a half right now. AS: He's one and a half. So, you have Yasmine, who's how old now? EL: Yasmine is nine. 9 �Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department AS: Nine. And Estevan Junior is five. EL: Five. AS: And then Isaiah is one and a half. EL: One and a half. And we would have had another one between Junior and, you know, only two years apart, not even, you know, but, you know, at that time it didn't happen. But we’re glad with the other two. My son was a miracle. That's what the doctor said, when the doctor showed up, actually told me she couldn't get pregnant. He said, “it must be that God wanted you to have another one.” So, he says surgery is not going to happen today until the baby's born and then you've got to wait three months before we can do surgery. So that's what happened. The baby was born and after three months my wife had surgery. AS: What's your wife's name? EL: Marguerita [?]. AS: Marguerita [?]... EL: Her real name or her? AS: Yeah, her real name or prior to getting married to you. EL: Her name is Marguerita [?] Contaros [?]. AS: So, she's from Oaxaca, but she's not from an indigenous group. EL: What’s that? AS: She's not from [spanish language]? EL: What do you mean? AS: So, in Oaxaca, there are a lot of [American] Indians. I don't know if she was… EL: I don't know if she is. She looks and, you know, my friends told me that because he went to the ruins up in Oaxaca, one of my friends at work. And when she met my wife, she said, “she looks like the Indians from over there. Is she Indian?” I said, “I don't know - we don't talk about that.” I know she lived in a small town, you know, and you can see mountains and hills there. But I don't know if she’s Indian or not. I haven’t even asked her that question. But, you know, and she said... one time I did ask her...yeah, I remember that because my friend told me and I asked her and she said no, but she don't know if her grandfather or her relatives are or not. But she said no. But to me, she said, “I don't know.” [Laughter] AS: Okay. Other people that you've said you ran into from Oaxaca, have you… are the other Latinos or Latinas, are they mostly from Mexico or have you run into Guatemalans or other Tejanos up here? EL: Well, when I used to come, you know, I don't know where they're from. I used to go to the dances, they had Spanish dances here a lot. I’d just go to dance and I never asked girls where they're from and stuff. I just knew that were you know, they talk Spanish and some of them talk English. I never asked them. AS: Okay. 10 �Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department EL: All the people that I meet now, because I'm married to my wife, they're all from Oaxaca and they're all from her town and that's where we go visit, you know, some other times. Because they're the people that are still in Michigan that know her because, you know, they migrate in the state here and they’re from Oaxaca. They live in Shelby, some live in Hart, some live in Ferry and stuff. And they know my wife because they know my mother-in-law and stuff. And they all know each other because they’re from the same town. AS: Interesting. EL: You guys can take… I’ll show you some pictures of my father-in-law and mother-in-law from Mexico in their hometown. AS: So, they still live in Oaxaca? EL: Yes, my father-in-law and mother-in-law still live in Oaxaca. And her sisters, all her sisters and her brothers - they’re from Oaxaca. But we go visit them, not every year, but every other year, you know. Like one year, two years ago, my sister-in-law called her and said, “I'm getting married.” From Washington, the one that was living here with her, that she lived with her for two years here and “I'm getting married, I want to be here to be my maid of honor. And I want my other sister to be here for, you know, further, you know, to stand up in the wedding. And I want you guys' husbands to be the groomsmen.” And I'm like, “we should go.” We start planning, you know, because she told us there was like three years before she was going to get married. So, I was saving money and stuff. And then that year, my wife was pregnant. She goes, “we need a bigger house.” So, we started looking for a bigger house and we found that the same year we went to Washington. Well, she says, “we can’t buy the house and go to Washington.” And I said, “don't worry about it.” I had money saved up just to go to Washington, but we also had money saved up to buy a house. And the good thing about it is that because I had a single-wide and there was a lot of foreclosures out there, the government had a thing that you can buy a house with no money down. And I didn't think I was going to fall into that because we had the house. But the lender says, “you fall into that because that ain’t a house. You got a title with that trailer house, right?” And I said, “yeah, I’ve got a title.” It ain’t a house; you need a deed to have a house, not a title. So, he told me, “take pictures of the house, take pictures of the rooms, and write me a letter why you need a bigger house.” Because there's only two bedrooms and we had two kids already and one on the way. So, I told my sister that she can do that for me. So, she wrote me a letter why and everything, and I took the letter to him and signed it. And then, I took the title of the trailer house - what year it was and stuff - and I passed the application. He says, “you can get any house. No matter what, no money down.” You know, no money down, no closing cost, nothing. And that’s how come we got the house. And then we said, “well, we can’t go to Washington.” And I reserved plane tickets because we were going to fly and then she canceled them. You know, she [?] and I said, “yeah, we do. We’ve got this money. I'm going to resort [?], you know, resort it with a credit card and we pay it, you know, when we get our income taxes. “No, no, no, no.” So, I went to work and she called the company and canceled the flight. When I got home, she goes, “I canceled the flight.” Why you do that? “Because it's too much money, we're not going. I called my sister and we're not going.” So, I called her sister and said we're going. So, she said, “I'm going to expect you here.” And I said, “yep, we’ll be there. She canceled the tickets, but I'm going to drive.” It’d be cheaper for me to drive. So, I didn't have them, I had two more days left for vacation, so I took them two. We already had the vacation to go to Washington, but if I was going to fly, not drive. 11 �Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department AS: Right. EL: So, I had two more days of vacation left that I could schedule. And I took them and I left and I took them two days and they gave them to me. And there was two more days so we had to leave. I told the wife, “you better pack.” She goes, “why?” I said, “we're going.” She said, “no, we’re not!” We’re going. I said that “your sister wants you over there and all your family, all your sisters from Houston are going to be there, your brother from Houston, their brothers from Houston. It's like a family get-together. I guess your family from Oaxaca can’t be there. You can't see your family over there because you can't go to Mexico, but you can see your family that live here.” And how long has it been that we haven't gone to Texas? I said, “for three years. I haven’t seen my brother and sister for three years. How long have you not seen your sisters in Washington?” “For five, seven years,” she said. We're going! And she said, “no, we’re not.” Yes, we are - you better pack. I already took the two days that it's going to take to get there on the road off. And I says, “we’re leaving, my day starts this day, we’re leaving… after I get out of work, we leave on that day. I get home at four o'clock, we're leaving at four o'clock.” AS: So, the whole family went? EL: She didn't believe me, she packed and everything. And we got there and she said, “where are we going to leave the dogs?” I said, “don't worry, I got all my sisters and my little niece is going to take care of them. I already talked to her.” “No, we’re not going.” So, we started putting everything in the truck, we took the dogs over there to my sister's and we left and when we were there, she was so happy to be there and she said, “well, I told my sister not to buy the dress.” And I said, “well, we can buy one on the way over there. Just tell her to send you what color.” And she didn't find the same color that, you know, almost, but she stood up in the wedding. And I think she had a good time with her because then she hadn’t seen her aunt for fifteen years. She saw her aunt because her aunt is over there in Portland, Oregon and it's only two hours from Irvington. AS: I was going to ask, yeah, where in Washington? I grew up in Oregon, spent a lot of time in Washington state. EL: You know where Portland, Oregon... you know, Arlington. Arlington is on Highway-Five. AS: Just up north then of…? EL: Yeah, it’s over there by Port Washington [?]. AS: So, below Tacoma? EL: It’s called Arlington. It's got like a port, like the ships come in there and it's like, I don't know, like a port for ships and stuff because the companies are over there, they definitely like fish. So, they're fishing like a fishing factory. They’ve got fish factories, they got single factories. And that's the only thing they’ve got there: saw mills and stuff at that place. But we went over there and we had a lot of fun and all of them took days off from work. And we all, for two days, we went to Portland, Oregon, to her aunt's house. And then from there we went... man, that's beautiful. Portland, Oregon is beautiful. She took us to… her cousin took us to a rose garden over there. AS: Oh, the rose gardens, yeah. EL: The rose garden is beautiful. It's just beautiful. 12 �Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department AS: What time of year? I'm sorry. EL: This time right here. Right now. AS: In June? EL: We left in June and we had to be over there by June the eighth. And we left here on June the fourth after work or June the fifth after work because my wife didn't think we were going to make it. We got there on June the eighth, so it was a Saturday, I think it was. Yeah, June the eighth, I think it was. And we got there at three o'clock in the morning in Washington that day that my sister was getting married. And she said, [?], so we slept. And then I couldn't sleep because there was a whole bunch of racket upstairs, you know, they had… we stayed at my sister-in-law’s, but, my sister-in-law's husband, her future husband, brought Mariachis upstairs when they were singing and they were, you know, and I told my wife, “what is going on upstairs?” Because we were in the basement, sleeping in the basement. Well, my future brother-in-law brought Mariachis because that's what they do in Mexico. When somebody gets married, the groom brings chocolate and donuts to the wife's parents house. But my parents are not here, so they brought it here to my sisters. I went upstairs. They had homemade chocolate, you know, chocolate for drinking - hot chocolate - homemade hot chocolate. And then they had buns from Mexico, donuts and then they had [?] they had for breakfast and stuff. And I couldn't sleep. So, I went upstairs and they were singing, Mariachis were singing and stuff. And I'm like, wow, you know, I never been to a… over here, you just get married, you know, a celebration. Then they all left and my wife started getting dressed. And my wife said, “we haven't slept hardly, it's too much excitement. I can't sleep.” So, we went to the wedding, to the reception at nine o'clock at night. And I can't keep my eyes open. I fell asleep in the chair for two hours, then I woke up. She was like, “do you want to go back?” I said, no, “we're good. I slept for two hours. We're good.” So, we stayed there till almost one o’clock in the morning. And then went, “I know we can go. We should go there. We can go now.” But then I said I didn't want to go. She goes, well, “thank you for bringing me now,” because she didn't want to go. And I think we're going to have the money to do it, but we had the money to do it because of my loan, I didn't have to have the closing costs or not because we passed that government loan, they call it, like I said, I don't know what it was. AS: What are some of your best memories and some of your worst memories about living here? EL: Like a good one was the trip to Washington. Well, being here, the best memory is when I met my wife. I mean. Sheila, I never, you know, I was married to a Takana [?]and they're a lot different, they're more… the culture's way different, you know, so it's an example of a difference, the way we talk. When I was talking to my wife, my wife would look at me and start laughing as I don't know, what are you talking about? I don't have the slightest idea what you're saying. So, what do you mean because you're Spanish and you're talking differently, and I talk and we talk like a sliding Spanish and they talk to write Spanish, and you don't say this, you say like this. All my life, I've been saying things, but now I talk with her in my life, I talk the correct way now and when I’m with my brother-in-law and my sister in law, I don't laugh at me anymore when I talk to him, because I first when they started talking, when they looked at me and started laughing and looked at what it's trying to say and my wife would tell him what I was saying, you know, and they don't do that anymore. But, you know, that's the best time. I met her and we had kids, and at first, you know, I was like...I never grew up. I would party, go to Spanish dances, you know. All my money was gold, like to drink and I'm going to spend it and going to Toledo, Ohio, to see the theaters and all that and stuff like that going, you know, spending money doing that. And I never 13 �Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department had nothing. You know, I was just the house and the car. I always had a brand-new vehicle all the time because I was single, but never, you know, I always party. Then my first wife was the same way. So, you know. And we didn't get along because she would take off and then come back, you know. And I thought we were married. I said, you know, “you should tell me where you're going and stuff” and she’d get mad. And you know, that time she got mad and took off. Then I didn't see her for a month. Because she was mad at me. And when she came back, I said, “well, this ain't going to work, you can just leave for a month. Don't know where you are and you know well you don't like it while living [?] all over again.” That's when I filed for divorce. Because marriage is a lifetime, it's a commitment, not the way you're doing it. I don't want that. You know, if you want to do, you know, party and do whatever you want, you can do it without me. Because part of the time, I don't know where you are at? You know, and I don't need that. And then, when we were divorced, and then when I met my wife, it was, you know, the culture's way different. Like I say, their culture is way, you know, she doesn't bring…. It's way different, I mean, this culture, you know, our culture here and being our people and our culture in Mexico is different. And that's come to me as my life goes along because, you know, I was at that time, you know, I was thirtysomething years old. I'm forty-nine years old. And I got that one and happy, I'll tell you something. But, you know, I mean. And at that time, I was thinking about settling down; I didn't want to party anymore. I didn't want to go to dances. I just, you know, I would see my brothers, my sisters, especially my brothers. You know, they got married young and their kids were growing big. My brother, you know, I went visiting my brother, but he's got a house here and his daughter staying there and he goes all over working in construction and working hard. He works for a company out of Holland. They work in hospitals and stuff, and they go all over the United States working in a hospital. And I’ve got nieces that, you know, my brother younger than me and I got nieces, they're twenty-one, twenty-two years old and already grown up. And there’s one, you know, one Christmas. I went to Christmas and, you know, I started realizing, I need to settle down. My nephews and my nieces are fifteen, sixteen, and I need to get settled down, and that's when I decided, you know, when I got married with my first wife, I thought I was going to be settled down. That was what she wanted to continue her life the way it was. And I was I was not going to do that, you know, anymore. I had quit drinking and stuff she did. And she wanted to, you know, be liberal or what you want to call it. I couldn't handle that. So, I told her, you know. This only lasted, you know, we were together for a year and marriage, you know, I thought marriages are going to change it, but it didn't. It made it worse. So, we were only married three months and I decided, you know, this is, I can't have you going like that. I'm going to work and then come back, you know, the next day on a Friday because you had Saturday and Sunday off. You know, she didn't come back until Friday and wouldn’t come back till five, six o'clock in the morning. When I was with friends from work party, you know, there's a phone call. I can't handle it. I married my wife. That's one of the cultural differences; we got along great and I was ready to settle down and we’ve got to trust each other, no matter what I think, we have that. We mean I've been here waiting for you with me, where I you and this one, you know, I can go to my work, come back. And I love to work, we talk about work, we talk about, you know, the kids are you know, where we differ. Yeah. AS: Does your wife work? EL: No. 14 �Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department AS: Okay. EL: She does. She wants to work, but we're trying to get her papers and it's been difficult. She's not documented and it's been difficult for us because they denied our part because my job, you know, for me to have what I got and for us to have the help we got, I’ve got to work overtime. And they know me there at work. They don't ask nobody because they really know what they're going to say. They come to me and say, “You want to stay here, you want to come in early tomorrow?” And I go in early and they deny my pardon, they call it, because they told me I make too much money and I can afford for her to be over there. But they don't understand how much over time I've been working. Because of her, she wants to work. I would want her to work too, you know, to help us out, you know, but the lawyer said she couldn't work. She couldn't drive. You know, we don't get caught working. Don't get caught driving because there's a penalty on your account because of paperwork, because of what's going on. So, she thinks that I don't want her to work. But it ain't that I don't want her to leave. You know what I mean? Because she... they also told her that if she gets caught, they can send her back to Mexico or whatever. And I don't want her to, you know, I don't want the kids to go to that, you know? AS: Sure. EL: And she doesn’t understand that. But, you know, right now she's understanding why but at first, it was kind of hard for me and her because she thought I don't want her to work. She said, “no, you don't want me being, you know, get my own money.” It ain't that, this is what the lawyer said, it isn’t that I didn't want you to work or do that, but. And for us to have the house we got and the kids and stuff, I got to work that overtime and I work a lot overtime. You know, last week I worked fourteen hours overtime. This week, guys, I work for hours of overtime, and so the government is saying you make too much money. For now, I make too much, I make too much money that I can afford for her to live in Mexico and have my household here and still send her money to live off of. Because I worked a lot over time, they think that they think that the money I make throughout the year, that's the money I make all year, every year, and that ain't the case. And this year I'm going to prove it, because this year we got bought out from another company. We got bought out from Harverson [?] one. The company that bottomed out is Harbourfront Walker International. Now, the company is not North American Factories anymore. This year changed name to Harverson Walker International and they don't want to. Over time, they took away the overtime, not necessarily overtime, but there's still overtime. Sometimes because of the vacation, people got to vacation and stuff to get done. So, during the summertime, that's when I get the overtime. During the wintertime, I don't get overtime. And they're going to see that this year because that's when they bought us last year at the end of the year and at the beginning of the winter. And we didn't work no overtime when their time started and worked overtime right now. So, then we had a bonus every month and the whole year bonus. Don't give us a bonus anymore. So that's what they were looking at, too. You know, I get they didn't know, how do I get paid? They were just saying, you know why he's making sixtyseven thousand, eight, you know, a year. But they don't know that. I was working a lot of overtime, you know, six, seven days a week sometimes. You know, yeah, and the lawyer once said it's going to be a new law coming out and then he wants me to say, you're not making any money. I said, I'm not making overtime and I’ll say I'll be probably in the forties, forty-five or something, not in the sixties anymore, not sixty-nine. Seventy thousand, I'm not going to be making that anymore. And you told me why...I said, well, honest and then necessary overtime, they took our bonus away. So, you're not going to see that I would get a thousand dollar bonus a month, just like another paycheck, you know, it's like another 15 �Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department paycheck because the government takes forty percent off that. Yeah, because it's another tax bracket. Because of brackets, because it's a sentence, not a word. You know, it's like a center for you. The government don't look at that, they don't look at your... you know, over there and see how much you work, and they just see that he makes as much money in a year. You don't know why you're making that much money in a year. You don't want me to. And that's what they should look at, the people there and, you know, the judges and stuff. You know, how can we make so much money over time? But I just hope they change and we can find the paperwork and because I got to redo everything again, I started from scratch because I denied everything. And now we have to start like the lawyers and we have to start from the beginning and see if you could. So, they're talking about the money. I don't make the money anymore. I mean, you know, I'll be in the forty-five this year. Yeah, you know, not seventy, over seventy down. AS: Does your wife speak any English? EL: No, she don't. AS: What about your kids? Are they growing up speaking English? Spanish? EL: Both my kids are bilingual. AS: So, your oldest daughter is already in grade school and she's in third grade. EL: Third grade. AS: And then your middle son is in kindergarten. EL: Kindergarten because my daughter was born in February and September is the deadline. So, I can't put her in school until, you know, she has to be five years of September, the deadline. So, she was going to be five that year. But I couldn't put her in school because the time was like she had to wait another year to go to kindergarten or to preschool. And so, did my son. He just turned five in October, and he's going to kindergarten and then he's going to be the same way because he was born in September 2001 and September 12th, that's the deadline. He was born September 21st. And then he’ll have to wait to turn five years old to go to preschool right, then in kindergarten he is going to turn six years old. But it's okay. And then all three of them are bilingual and they’re barely talking. But he speaks Spanish directly. You know, my son talks a lot of English to me, but with my wife, he talks Spanish. And when we had a teacher’s conference and the teacher asked me and my wife said, “do you know how to talk in Spanish? “And so, she tells me, you know, it's interesting. Why do you think, I told her, you talk to your mom in Spanish, oh, that's what that is, Spanish. So, it's just so natural to me. Yeah, I say you talk Spanish to your mom. So, it is teaching, I know what to expect. But yeah, he taught Spanish to me by the time he talks English to mom, his mom, but she is learning English by my kids, so she understands it, she can read it, she don't know what she's reading, but she you know, that's the good thing about it. They are not a very good reader. And she can read it to me how she can pronounce the words very good. But I understand what she's saying and I can, you know, you know, relate, you know, to stuff. You know, I don't know the words and stuff. And in English, all I'm doing, I'm using the words in Spanish. So, when she tells me that in Spanish, I'm telling you in English, but she tells me that and how are your kids learning to read in Spanish where they just talk and understand English talk and understand. My daughter loves to read. I didn't know one time I went to bed and I'm like, I'm here and stuff like. I was talking why she stopped. You will you will find out for a lot closer to her over get the door open a 16 �Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department little bit and I see a little light coming from open the door, turn the light on. She's underneath the covers with her flashlight reading a classic. I think a lot of kids have done that and say, what are you doing? She goes reading, I go to bed. I said, no, you can read. She goes like me before I go to bed. That makes me go to sleep. I love it. She does that every night, reads something with the little flashlight. So sometimes I have to tolerate it. If you need better batteries for your flashlight. And I said here, just keep them in your room and then she already knows how to change them and everything. So, then I got her little lights that’s got that clip. No, no, it's a light that it's instead of twenty-five lumens or whatever you call it, it's like sixty, so it's a little brighter. I got one of them and she loves it. Thank you for the light. I would like, you know, to know what she reads every night, every night. And I could hear you talking at night. I really know that a couple of nights there, I'm like, let's talk. So, Yasmine, I thought maybe she started her sleep or something. One night I said, man, she's talking like she's reading something and you go check and my wife already knew what's going on. I wanted to act and she was reading. So, she likes to read. At school they get a little piece of something. Every month during the winter time, she got one little piece of fruit because she read a whole bunch of books. She likes reading. So, my son is a different story. You know, you don't know how to read in preschool. You don't pick up a book and read or not, I think it's going to be like me. He likes mechanical stuff. I'm working on stuff where I go outside to the garage. He goes outside to the garage with me. And what is that? What is this? What is that for? What is this used for? So, I show, you know how to use it to stuff some. And he said, we got to fix the bike, what to do, and I help him to fix this and that. And he surprised me this year. He says that I need a bigger bike. I said, no, you don't. Yes, I do. You don't. Your bike, it's good. No, I need a bigger bike and I need to take the training wheels off. It had training wheels on, but bigger than the one he had, he can barely put his feet down like he is too tall. You know, I can do it now. That's what happened with the little one. I would get stuck like those that take the training wheels off. I didn't want to, but I took them off. I mean, it surprised me. We took off all around the house and stuff. And I'm like, I can't believe that Yasmine didn't do that. She had the training wheels until she was like six or seven years old. He's only five, we need to take the training wheels and he took off with his bike and he's bigger and he barely can put his feet down as it is. And I got to see it all the way down, you know, all the way it can go down. And he says, you know, one time you fall off the bike, I'm like, so he can yeah. It's because I have been on my tiptoes. I lost the footing. I think I said, well, get the other one and I put the seat on it. No, I want this one. And he rides and he rides that bike every day. Now after he got out of school, and I said, what are you doing out there? And like I said, he's out there on his bike. Yeah, he's out there every day. And he wakes up, he goes out there, gets his bike, riding his bike all day. AS: Apart from family life and your work, are there other kinds of things that you do in town? EL: Yes, I'm a proud member of the Knights of Columbus. I didn't know what it was at first when I was married to my wife, with my wife here. One day a friend of mine said, you know what we're doing tonight? I said, well, what is that? He said, Well, I'll bring Mr. Mason with me and we can talk about it. His name is Jim Mason from Fremont. He came and talked to us at St. Gregory and I said, well, I'll try the way he talked to Mr. Mason. I mean, just look at Greece this year. Yes. Mr. Mason talked about the nights when he talked about the nights. It was like, you know, it was like a great thing to do. The way he talked, you know, when Hector told me about it, I don't want to do it. So, I wouldn't bring Mr. Mason. But when he talked, he was the one that convinced me, you know, OK, I've been in the knights for five years. And I'm a fourth-degree knight. You know, they go by degrees, they go first degree, second degree and third degree in fourth degree and fourth degree night. I do the [?] with the fourth degree. 17 �Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department And I like it because it gives me something. To do one, you know, sometimes they have, like breakfast and stuff and that's my time for me. I tell the wife, I said, I'm going to help, you know, help out there. And I come and help and I go back home. She told me how much money you guys make and, you know, stuff like that because, you know, we make money, too, for charities. And I tell her stuff that's done all the time alone for me because the rest of the time I spend it with my kids. There was a time that I was spending too much time doing because I was a great knight. I don't know, what a great knight, you know, great knight is your… the council is your council. You're the one that makes the meetings. You're the one to send letters to your council members. You're the one that makes the decisions for them. It's like being like a president. And it's like you got a president and vice president for a company. That's what it is. The grant like, you know, does all that where the money is going to where you know, and you got your assistant knight. You got your treasurer, you got here. So, it's you know, and it was getting to be too much, you know. And then the kids got baseball stuff, you know, practices and Girl Scouts, Boy Scouts. And my son just wants to be a Boy Scout and we're trying to get them in Boy Scouts. And he plays football. You get, you know, stuff like that. My daughter plays it and she's been trying everything. And I think she wants to do baseball, basketball, and volleyball and not football. Yes. You know, she liked football, but, you know, she's a girl. So, football, soccer or no football. Football where they call it Football Americano. AS: Right. EL: But, my son wants to play that. So, I put them in and he sees Yasmine being in Girl Scouts. You've been in Girl Scouts and since she started, if you want. You know, since we went there, we asked her if she wanted to be a Girl Scout in first grade. She was going to first grade and she likes it. And Junior sees her going, like, they go on trips, they go on camping trips and stuff like that. He says, I want to do that. Then I want to be in Girl Scouts. I say, you can’t be a Girl Scout. And they’ve got Boy Scouts. Oh, they do the same thing as Yasmine. Go on trips and go on camping trips and soccer. He likes camping. We go camping sometimes. I went back in the day and my wife doesn't like camping. But, you know, I once had just gone a couple of miles away from home, you know, we can do that at home. And I said, you don't understand this. Can you keep away from home, you know, just for a couple of days? You know, it's like she don't like it, but the only way she's going to go to Europe or something or like Ludington and stuff, you know, they were far away from home, but we try to do it here in the Hart. It's too close to home. I don't understand going camping. But she does understand the kids like it, so they must love camping, fishing, we go fishing, camping together and I take my daughter, she loves fishing. You know, I used to party a lot, and when I decided to settle down, I picked up fishing with my cousin Roy. We used to go fishing in Ludington. And that was, you know, that was my time away from work, to go fishing. I was working third shift, I would get out and he worked at [?]. And he said, I might take a day off Friday. I said, well, Friday is my last day and I get out at seven o’clock in the morning. I said, I'll meet you at your house at eight o’clock. Okay, so I will get out of work, and that was my last day of work, you know, and before I used to go party, and I’d go to the bar and all that stuff. Now it's time for me to settle down. So, I go fishing with my cousin and then, you know, what time you get out of work? And it's about five o’clock and said, well, we got a couple hours to go fishing. I'm going to be at work. And we go to Ludington and I got to drop you off and I got to go to work. So that's what we do. I sleep at home, get up, get all my equipment ready, and wait for him to get out of work. We go fishing up the [?]. I come back and drop him off at work so I can go home. Sometimes they say, well, just meet me at home. So, I'm home. Now, wait a minute. You know, I'll get there before you always get 18 �Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department there before. One time I got there and I thought you said you were going to [?}, so I left early and then he had an accident and he messed up his back. He doesn't work there anymore. Matter of fact, he can’t be seen very much because his back. I went to my little nieces, his daughter's graduation party and says he's still fishing. I said you should come pick me up one time. I said, well, I thought you didn't want to fish. Come sit down and kind of stand up. Well, he says I can do a little bit more now, but not very much, he said. But we can still go fishing. So, I have to call him up. I didn't know his number. You know he changes it. Yeah, I had his own phone number, but then he got a cell phone and I didn't know his number. A couple couple of days ago, it was last Saturday. Now we've got his number. Give me your phone number on it. Call me when we've got to go fishing. My wife called me to say where I left that because I thought I might be home by one or twelve [o’clock]. AS: I just have a couple more, quick questions and we can wrap it up and we can take you over to get your picture taken. We can give you a copy of this. And if you wanted to give us some pictures or you could send them. AS: So, this interview is going to be archived, it's saved for years and years, and so if you think of somebody fifty years from now listening to this. What's one thing that you would want to say to them? That really matters about your life here? EL: Life in Michigan? AS: Yeah, or maybe your life growing up first as a migrant settling here, something like that. EL: And I don't think I would have this opportunity when I got in Texas, so I talked to my cousins over there in Texas and they earn a lot less than I do, you know, but the cost of living is a lot less over there. But the job I got, I don't think I'll find anywhere else. I mean, in order have a job like that and like it is very slim and I like where I work at because of the people that work there, but the president and the president of the company are nice people, you know, not the people that bought us out because I don't know them. But the people there in the plant itself are like a big family. I mean, if something happens to somebody, like an operation. My friend's wife had cancer and fortunately she died about a couple of weeks ago. But we all had… a hat goes around people for money in there and it all goes to get a car and everybody finds it and it goes to the person because the medical bills are pretty expensive, that stuff. And our insurance company is not a Michigan insurer or insurance. Now, we had good insurance, but they took it away from us and they gave us insurance from Pennsylvania. And I don't know, is it different over there or whatever is here in Michigan? They don't cover hardly anything. But, you know, I like working there, and I don't think I would get an opportunity to go to a place like that and get on with the people, get along with your supervisor, get along with the company manager and, you know, stuff like that. I don't know. And there is a place around like that. I mean, ever since I worked there, I felt at home because the people are just, you know, they reach out to people and. And I like working here. AS: Is there a mix of Anglo and Latino workers there? EL: No, well, at first, there were African-American, Latino and Americans. But throughout the years, I'm the only Hispanic that works there…. African-Americans, their only used to be four of them. The other one, the other two retired, one quit, and there’s only one left and the rest are Americans. So there's only two of us, the one African-American, one Hispanic. Yeah, and there's no racial stuff going on, 19 �Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department nothing. They're just like, you know, you're the president of the company who walks around and, well, how are you doing? You know, all the kids now, they don't talk about it when they talk to you. You know, when he's walking around first thing or, you know, out of his mouth is, how are you doing? I was a kid, you know, stuff like that. Not that, you know, you don't talk about work or anything, you know, and then you talk to him about the kids and stuff and he and all the kids down there, they're pretty grown already. You know, I've been there twenty-one years. And, you know, people think, how people are going to act or who, you know, who's nice, who's not. But mostly everybody is, you know, a good person. They're working. AS: Well, to finish up anything else that you'd like to share that I haven't asked you about? I don't know whether you want me to talk about it, maybe? AS: How do you feel like you've gotten your story out, you feel like if somebody else listens to the story, they’d have a pretty good idea of this guy's life? EL: Well, I don't know, I just know that, when we were younger, it's kind of hard because going from Texas to Michigan, it's kind of hard because, you know, you don't… you only knew a couple of people at school, and there's always problems in school because, you know, you're new here and people didn't like you here. Then when you go to Texas while you were a part of the problem, the school first started for you or it’s not your problem there to me. So, it worked both ways. You know, it doesn’t matter, you know, people say there's racial stuff. It don't matter where you go, you know, it's got to be, like I said here, because I was the only Spanish guy here at school in the high school in Walkerville, you know, and then over there is because you didn't start the school year when they started, you know, and they're your own race, you know, you want me to be like, hey, you know, and then over here the same way, you know, that's where I come from. That's why when Miles would come up and say, you want to work, go to work and hang around with anybody, you know, I'd rather go work than, hang around with people. The people used to be wrong, you know? Yeah, and over there in Texas, we got home. My grandfather had cattle and some cattle, not very much. And my uncle and we get home and [Inaudible] be waiting for us a long time. Let's go cut some grass for the cows and stuff and we'd help out, you know, water. The cow will take food, too, you know, and hang around my grandfather. That's what I miss most about my time when my grandfather died, as part of me died because I used to hang around my grandfather a lot when we used to do a lot of stuff because my dad was a truck driver, he was never home, but my grandfather was there for me. AS: Alright, very well. Thank you for that. Thanks for your time and for sharing your memories with us. And that concludes the interview. 20 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/0ced52a717bdf0a73f834c4bf75bcc52.mp3 e86599ee104bd66ffc7b3d1a9104f268 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oceana County Migrant Labor History Collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Shell-Weiss, Melanie Description An account of the resource Collection contains images and documents digitized and collected through the project "Growing Community: A Century of Migration in Oceana County." This project was a collaboration between El Centro Hispano de Oceana, the Oceana County Historical and Genealogical Society, and Grand Valley State University funded by a Common Heritage grant from the United States National Endowment for the Humanities. The materials in this collection document the history of communities in Hart, Shelby, and Walkerville and explore themes of migration, labor, religion, family, belonging, national and cultural identities, regional, national, and international connections, and citizenship. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Oceana County (Mich.) Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Grand Valley State University. Kutsche Office of Local History Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Special Collections and University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource El Centro Hispano de Oceana; Oceana County Historical and Genealogical Society Relation A related resource Growing Community (NEH Common Heritage project) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-06 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf image/jpeg audio/mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Image Sound recording Language A language of the resource eng spa Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016 Subject The topic of the resource Oceana County (Mich.) Hart (Mich.) Shelby (Mich.) Farms Farmers Migrant agricultural laborers Hispanic Americans Account books Diaries Oral history Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-06_Luevano_Estevan Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Luevano, Estevan Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-06-18 Title A name given to the resource Luevano, Estevan (audio interview and transcript) Description An account of the resource Oral history interview with Estevan Luevano. Interviewed by Andrew Schlewitz on June 18, 2016 in Hart, Michigan. English and Spanish language. Estevan Luevano was born in San Juan, Texas in 1967 as the son of two Mexican parents who migrated to Michigan for work each year. Throughout his life, he and his family were a part of the agricultural heritage of both places, and they settled in Michigan in 1981 and decided to stay. Estevan graduated from Walkerville High School in 1986 and studied diesel engines at the vocational center, which later helped him as he started his career as a semi-truck driver for his family’s business and later working as a mechanic. He ended up moving to Hesperia, Michigan in 1992 where he bought his first home and later started a family. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Schlewitz, Andrew (interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oceana County (Mich.) Migrant agricultural laborers Farms Audio recordings Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Growing Community (NEH Common Heritage) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6024f5a6bd38e3cff6de21082b2909ec.mp4 c21882bbf86c1ff7292cde955f39a112 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7b8057744bb9b912d78f33eb903ab1e0.pdf eeda8905ff89b1f47b8118a6b809ffa8 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Harvey Lugten (52:36) (00:05) Background Information • • • • • • Harvey was born in Holland, Michigan in 1922 and graduated from Holland high school in 1940 His father was a cabinet maker, but lost his house and job during the depression Harvey worked as a paper delivery boy during school and began working in manufacturing once he was done with school Harvey worked in a tool room and was deferred from service 3 different times because of his job Once he was drafted he had his choice of joining the Army or the Navy He had always enjoyed going sailing and fishing so he chose the Navy (6:55) Training • Harvey was sent to Great Lakes Naval Academy in Chicago for training • They went through lots of marching and other physical activities for 9 weeks • He was then sent to machinist school in the same area of Chicago • Harvey was later interviewed to join in submarine school and went through psychiatric testing as well • He passed his testing and was sent to submarine school in Connecticut • The submarine service was very selective and the classes were difficult • There was hands on training and they were working in subs the whole time • He then had training in submarine diesel school • Both courses lasted 13 weeks and Harvey spent about 6 months altogether training in submarine school (14:55) Overseas • Harvey finished his classes in 1944 and took a troop train from Connecticut to California • He boarded a troop ship headed for New Caledonia and then was transferred onto a coastal steamer • They stopped in New Guinea to stay for a while on a very old and beat up base and then left for Brisbane, Australia • While in Australia Harvey also visited Sydney, Adelaide, and Perth on the western side of the country • They took trains across the country that were very old and slept on straw • They only thing in Australia to eat was mutton and after that, Harvey never ate mutton again �(18:20) First Sub War Patrol • Harvey had been staying at a sub base in Fremantle, Australia • They then left on the Hake, USS 256 submarine, which had just returned from 2 previous war patrols in the Atlantic working to fight German U-boats • The sub had also been on 5 patrols in the Pacific and was successful in sinking Japanese vessels • On Harvey’s first patrol, he witnessed the sinking of a Japanese destroyer and a ship • On another patrol Harvey and others had been attacked by 147 depth charges for 16 hours • When attacked by a depth charge, everything on the ship is shut down and it operated for “silent running” • They turned the devices back on after the attack and the sub had been flooded with about 4 inches of water (25:20) Submarine Crew • When Harvey joined the crew he had been a replacement member • Much of the rest of the crew was experienced and had already been on 5 patrols in the Pacific • The sub contained a control room, torpedo room, officer’s quarters, mess hall, engine room, and maneuvering room • Harvey worked in the engine room while they were on the surface • Every man worked for 4 hours on, 4 hours off, and so on • While they were submerged he worked on maintaining the level of depth for the sub • Most war patrols lasted two months and then they would have two weeks off while the sub was at port (35:50) Third War Patrol • For his third patrol Harvey traveled to Manila Bay, but the ship was called back to the US for an overhaul due to the beating it took from the depth charges • They traveled to CA for the sub to be worked on and Harvey had time to go back home on leave • He had been at home in Michigan on VE Day in May of 1945 • Once he was back in California they headed for Pearl Harbor and then Wake Island to load up on fuel and supplies • The sub was then on lifeguard duty near Saipan, helping to pick up downed pilots • Then they headed to Tokyo Bay for the Signing of the Peace • They left Japan and headed back to the Eastern US • The sub was sent to Connecticut to be decommissioned (41:15) Discharged �• • • • • • • • Harvey was discharged in February of 1946 and planned on going back to college after that He started a little late in the semester at Hope College in Holland, MI The GI Bill helped him pay for most of his classes Harvey got married while in college and dropped out He built his first house on his wife’s property in Holland Harvey worked at GM for a few years, but decided to go back to college and graduated in 1954 He received a degree in mathematics and then went to Western Michigan University in Kalamazoo for his masters degree Harvey eventually became the superintendent for Byron Center schools and remained in the position for 20 years � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context LugtenH Title A name given to the resource Lugten, Harvey (Interview outline and video), 2008 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lugten, Harvey Description An account of the resource Harvey Lugten was born in Holland, Michigan in 1922 and graduated from Holland High School in 1940. Harvey was drafted into the service and had his choice of the Army of the Navy. He chose the latter and went through training at Great Lakes Naval Academy in Chicago. After basic training Harvey went to machinist school and then submarine school for another 6 months. After training he was shipped to Australia where he later boarded the USS 256. Harvey went on three war patrols throughout the Pacific and was later discharged in February of 1946. After his time in the service, he received his masters degree and later became the superintendent for Byron Center schools in Michigan. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Byron Area Historic Museum (Byron Center, Mich.) BCTV Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) Video recordings United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans United States. Navy World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2008-10-14 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b83c5f2f9e0ca4689d129d8c6be658b8.mp4 517d9ef81118aff9b5b0dcaf7afc6cbe https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ee7b6033cfba88c7c9f92269d1f37bdb.pdf c0442628dbc96c7e3637a1d7ce1db608 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Name of Interviewee: Phil Lugtigheid Name of War: Vietnam War Length of Interview: (00:17:21) Childhood and Pre-Enlistment (00:04) • Born in Grand Rapids, MI • Enlisted in the Air Force at age 17 in April 1962 Training (01:30) • Enlisted in Detroit, and was sent to Lackland AFB in San Antonio, TX for 5 weeks of basic training. • (02:00) He then went to Chanute AFB in Illinois for 34 weeks of training to learn to be a flight controls and autopilot repairman. Active Duty (02:25) • After training, he was sent to George AFB in Southern California. • (03:01) His wing would go to Spain for 6 months at a time for air defense command. • (03:30) He also spent some time in Alaska. • (04:45) They would train to support airplanes on alert status by boarding airplanes on a few minutes notice with whatever equipment they could grab. They would be dropped off at the other side of base and they would have to repair flight systems with whatever they had brought along. • (05:35) He was also sent to Taiwan for 2 ½ weeks, and then to Vietnam for 4 ½ months where his wing flew Army and Marine support missions. They stopped in Hawaii and the Wake Islands on the way over. • (07:57) He made many friends while he was in the Air Force, but he did not stay in contact with them. • (08:30) His job was to repair autopilot and other systems which the pilots reported as malfunctioning. They were generally electronics fixes. • He would communicate by letters and phone calls while he was overseas. • (10:21) He took some courses at a community college when he was in California. • (11:16) While they were in Vietnam, they were attacked by the NVA a few times while they were on their base in Da Nang, Vietnam. The NVA were able to get on the base a few times and they blew up some airplanes. • (12:30) He was in the Air Force for 4 years, but was only in Vietnam during the early part of the war. • (13:36) He was supposed to be sent back to Vietnam, but he didn’t have enough time left on his enlistment to go back. Post-Service (14:03) • He went to Michigan after he was discharged with a friend. • (15:35) He attended Grand Rapids Junior College and Western Michigan College on the GI Bill. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context LugtigheidP Title A name given to the resource Lugtigheid, Paul (Interview outline and video), 2009 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lugtigheid, Paul Description An account of the resource Paul Lugtigheid was born in Grand Rapids, MI and served in the Air Force during the Vietnam War. He joined the Air Force at age 17, and became an autopilot and flight controls mechanic. He was based in California and spent some tours of duty in Spain. He also spent a tour of duty in Da Nang, Vietnam on a base working support for aircraft. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Kailey Rosema (Interviewer) Caledonia High School (Caledonia, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American United States. Air Force Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2009-05-31 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a504811e89a273a10fa7e10f0aca097a.pdf 34d859f62d470eb57cc5c25df33d09e9 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Luis “Tony” Baez Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 8/23/2012 Biography and Description Luis “Tony” Baez arrived in Chicago from Barrio Borinquén of Caguas, Puerto Rico in 1969 and soon became Minister of Education of the Young Lords. Barrio Borinquén is the first rural community just outside of Caguas on the same road that leads to Barrio San Salvador. Dr. Baez comes from a Puerto Rican cuatro playing family, and he also plays guitar. In Puerto Rico, Dr. Baez was also active with the Puerto Rican Independence Party (PIP), the electoral component of the broad movement in Puerto Rico, fighting for Puerto Ricans to regain back control of their nation. By 1970, Dr. Baez moved from Chicago to Milwaukee and set up a Young Lords chapter. They maintained a community office and distributed the Young Lords Newspaper (that Dr. Baez had also helped to publish while in Chicago), focusing primarily on neighborhood organizing, community-based programs, and bilingual education. During the same time, Dr. Baez continued his studies and some years later earned a Ph.D. Today Dr. Baez is Executive Director of the Council for the Spanish Speaking, Inc. The organization was established in 1964 and is the oldest Latino community-based organization in Milwaukee. The Council serves more than 15,000 individuals, including at risk youth, working families, adult learners and the elderly via subsidized elderly housing. They also assist with foreclosure counseling, health education, and civic engagement and mobilization. Dr. Baez is the former Provost and Chief Academic Officer of the Milwaukee Area Technical College in Wisconsin. He has served as Assistant to the President, Associate Dean of Pre- �College Programs, Dean of Liberal Arts and Sciences, and Director of Research, Planning and Development there as well. In the Bronx, New York, Dr. Tony Baez also ser served as Vice-President and Dean of Faculty at Hostos Community College. �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: (inaudible) Testing, one, two, three. Testing, one, two, three. LUIS BAEZ: Testing, one, two, three. Testing, one, two, three. Can you hear me well? (break in audio) JJ: Okay. Tony, if you can give me your name, your date of birth, and where you were born? LB: I was born in Caguas, Puerto Rico in 1948, and in the Caguas, it has a number of barrios, and I was in a barrio called Borinquen, close to Salvador, and Salvador’s, where Cha-Cha Jiménez is from. JJ: Okay, San Salvador. LB: Yup. JJ: [San Salvador?]. And what was the date that you were --? LB: September 3, ’48. JJ: September what? LB: Third. Third. JJ: [Third, okay?]. Okay. Okay, so, Borinquen. What was that like? Give me a description of that. LB: Barrio Borinquen in Caguas was a neighborhood that was very active in [00:01:00] the 1960s because of a lot of things that were happening on the island that were very political in nature. And I was recruited at that time by groups of people that were involved with the Puerto Rican Independence Party to be a part of the youth organizations that were in the area. We were also involved, at that 1 �time, in takeovers, land takeovers, where people were desperate for housing, and there were large lands that were being used for sugar canes -- fields and for cattle. And, as sugar cane was dwindling, coming down, those big, huge areas became empty, and we -JJ: What year was this? LB: This was in the 1960s, 1966 to ’69, more or less. And so, I was recruited -- JJ: So, there was sugar around there, in --? LB: Yeah, there was a lot of sugar in that neighborhood. There was a lot of [00:02:00] cattle in that neighborhood. The (Spanish) [00:02:02], they produced milk. They sold milk to the city. And so, there was economy based both on the sugar cane, tobacco, and cattle. Okay? And my grandfather was the owner of a piece of land that produced a lot of sugar cane. JJ: What was your grandfather’s name? LB: [Emilio?] Baez. Emilio Baez, who had been a politician involved in another barrio of Caguas before he came to Borinquen, and my father was -- JJ: What kind of politician? LB: A local politician. He was a city councilor. JJ: City counselor. LB: And he lost an election -- he was very disappointed -- in Barrio (inaudible). And then, he got this piece of land in Borinquen and came over, and he grew a family there, and my father was the first member of that family out of nine people who [00:03:00] made it to the Army. He enlisted in the Army, and the family was not 2 �happy with him because he enlisted in the Army. To my fortune, when he came back because he -JJ: This is in World War II, or...? LB: World War II. JJ: Okay. LB: Because he had been a soldier, and he had been around, and he had traveled, and, you know, he had more aspirations for us. There were four boys and one girl in my family, and he also took us back and forth from back inBarrio Borinquen to New York as a worker. My mother and he would come and work in the different industries in New York City, and then they would go back, and it was almost like an annual thing, so -- JJ: Like factories, or --? LB: Factories and the needle industry. JJ: The needle industry. LB: A lot of the needle industry. JJ: In New York. LB: In New York, yeah. And -- JJ: What were their names? LB: [Bernardo?] Baez was my father, who died in [2004?], [00:04:00] and my mother, who’s still alive, [Maria Isabel?] (inaudible) Baez. And so, they -- JJ: Your siblings, what were their names? LB: Oh, my siblings. One was [José “Tito”?] Baez, who is a cuatrista and pretty well known in Puerto Rico for a master cuatro player. 3 �JJ: Tito Baez, mm-hmm. LB: Yeah. And my other brother is [Eduardo?]. JJ: And what does Eduardo do? LB: Eduardo is a guitarist. Okay? And a worker ’cause they’re all workers. Tito -José -- for example, who follows me, was working in the public schools and taking food to the cafeterias, these school cafeterias. (Spanish) [00:04:44], as they call them. And my sister, [Yolanda?], who was also a laborer. She lived in [there?]. She lived in New York. She lived in Chicago too. And one brother who was very active. [00:05:00] We called him [Papo?], and he disappeared one day during the political process, and we found his body later. JJ: Disappeared, and you found his body? LB: We found his body in the -- JJ: So -- LB: -- beach in (inaudible). Yeah. JJ: But, I mean, you know that it had to do with political reasons? LB: The suspicion is that it did. Okay? Some people say that maybe he went for a swim and that happened. Well, he used to work as a swim guard in one of these places, so that’s unlikely, but my brother was known for his political activism (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). And he was among the couple people that stood on the Lares celebration in 1960 -- 1970, actually. Yeah, 1970. And burned an American flag on top of the US post office. And, after that, he was the subject of a lot [00:06:00] of persecution, and he came to Milwaukee for a bit, and he went back, and then he died. So, he died at the age of 26. Okay? So, 4 �my family was sort of like well known in Barrio Borinquen because my father set up a little store there and a little country bar, and I used to work there with him, and we went back to Puerto Rico for [a certain point?] when I was in sixth grade. JJ: Right there at the entrance, that country bar? LB: Yes. It was [just that street?] going into Barrio Borinquen. And the activities of the family were sort of like well known, and my father -- JJ: Are they still there? Are there any family members still there? LB: Yes. Everybody’s there. Everybody’s there except me. JJ: (inaudible). LB: Yes, and my father that died. But my father was, you know, more conservative. He had been a soldier, and he was member of -- he was sort of like a follower of the Republican party in Puerto [00:07:00] Rico, so I had my disagreements with my father, and I had very strong disagreements, like most people in Puerto Rico. JJ: Yeah, my father was (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). LB: Exactly. In the same house, we have people who are Republicans, Populares. In my house, my father was Republican, my mother was Popular, and I was Independentista, you know? And we used to have these discussions about party lines and our own ideological lines because that’s the nature of Puerto Rico for a long time. Since the Americans came in 1898, there has been this whole movement around either becoming sort of stabilized as a colonial state, like the Populares did, particularly since the ’40s and the ’50s, or become a state of the United States, like they are still trying to make Puerto Rico a state even though 5 �the US doesn’t want us. And then, the groups [00:08:00] that were pushing for Puerto Rico to become an independent island from the United States. JJ: What do you mean, the United States doesn’t want us? LB: The Congress of the United States has repeatedly stated throughout the years the Puerto Rico, for them, is a major dilemma, and it’s a problem, not just along racial lines, as many of us know, but, because of the density of the population, we would probably have more representation in Congress than many states in the Union. However, the representatives in those states would have to vote in a referendum to make us a state, and becoming a state of this Union is extremely difficult to do. So, the politics of it is that -- why would you want to vote in another territory that will bring in more representation in the Congress of the United States than many -- and I really mean many -- states will have? Okay? And, on top of that, people of color and [00:09:00] that have been saying for many years that they want to remain bilingual, and they want to -- and they insist on Spanish being the national language of Puerto Rico as opposed to English. So, yeah, being from Borinquen, having had those experiences, participating in land takeovers, and then going to the University of Puerto Rico and the -- JJ: So, you participated in -- you went to the university, but you participated in the land takeovers? LB: Yes. JJ: But were there people arrested in that or anything like that, or --? LB: Yeah, there were people arrested, but it was a different time. It was not like here. I mean, these were Puerto Rican policemen, many of whom themselves needed 6 �houses, and they participated in land takeovers in other places on the island. Okay? So, it was a time in the island where people were just taking over land -JJ: What year was this? LB: This is from ’66 to ’68. Okay. People were doing this. I mean, 1968 is a big [00:10:00] year of people rising all over the world. Okay? There’s books written about this stuff. As the (inaudible) of a particular year where people had enough, like people are having enough today, and people go into the streets to exercise, basically, democracy. And, in Puerto Rico, that was reflected in the [strong?] movement to take over lands. And so, you were affected. I mean, you’re in the same barrio, and, all of a sudden, somebody comes to the little store of my father and says, “(Spanish) [00:10:33].” And then, “We’re getting people together to --” And then, you go with him. You participate, and, all of a sudden, you find yourself as a speaker, you know, in events like that, and I remember, in one of these events, I was asked by the people in the area -- said, “Well, you speak well. Could you speak for us?” And the city council -- this was my first time before the city council in Puerto Rico, in Caguas, okay? [00:11:00] And I go there, and these people are distinguished folks and councilmen, you know, (Spanish) [00:11:06], right? And so, for me, it was a little bit weird to have to do that, but, you know, we were young folks. We saw what was going on in the neighborhood. We didn’t think it was fair, and we became involved. Then, we got affected by the war. JJ: What wasn’t fair? I don’t understand. You’re taking over somebody’s land. 7 �LB: Well, what was fair is that people were living in little huts all over the place that didn’t have their own homes, and their houses were attached to the land of others. So, like, my grandfather, who had a piece of land, I used to remember the (inaudibleChito?) who used to take care of a lot of the maintenance of the land. He had a little house right next to the (Spanish) [00:11:58], right? [00:12:00] Smelling all that cow stuff and all that stuff with a big family, and some of these family members used to be my friends. I used to go, “Why do they have to live like that?” So, these are people that became part of a movement of takeovers. And then, on top of that, you had the war, and then you had the ideological battles, and the Puerto Rican Independence Party, the Puerto Rican Socialist Party at that time, in Puerto Rico were very adamant about the whole thing that a very energetic youth had to be included and had to be a part of a change in the island and resisting the war, the war in Vietnam, because the war in Vietnam was becoming a household word for people in (inaudible). So many Puerto Ricans were being recruited by Servicio Militar Obligatorio to go to the war to fight in foreign lands in wars that we had nothing to do with. Okay? [00:13:00] Wars that we had not begun, that were began by other corporate interests. So, we were sort of part of a resistance movement in the war. We were part of land takeovers. We used to march a lot. I mean, the schools where I went to. I mean, people demonstrating -- JJ: In (Spanish) [00:13:21]? LB: No. In Barrio Borinquen, no, but I went to the school in the city. Okay? So, there was a little bus that used to take us to the city, and, (Spanish) [00:13:34] 8 �was a high school, and (Spanish) [00:13:38] was a middle school. Kids were very involved. We had demonstrations, and we used to march, and all this kind of stuff, and sometimes we’d wonder why we were marching so much, but we did it anyway. And then, we heard about these demonstrations at the University of Puerto Rico, and these students were (Spanish) [00:14:00] because they didn’t want to go to the war. And then, the movements like the Sixto Alvelo movement. Sixto Alvelo was a Puerto Rican student that went with a group of students to Vietnam to see what was going on over there, and he was in a school with a group of other students from other Latin countries. And, when the US bombed Vietnam -- and he was in one of those places where the bombs fell, and he was killed, and Sixto Alvelo had nothing to do with it. So, there’s a big movement. I became, later, the vice president of the youth movement in the -- what was called Sixto Alvelo Movement in Defense of the Juventud Puertorriquena. And so, we were all affected by all this stuff that was going on, and I was right in the middle of all of that because I was an emerging young kid among the kids in the neighborhood who took positions, [00:15:00] and PIP, for example, the Puerto Rican Independence Party, had an office in town, and they made the office accessible to me and a bunch of other young kids. And I was sort of like the young leader of that group that would represent the group in different events. I remember there was other folks that were doing likewise, young people that went out teaching in the schools, and the Puerto Rican Independence Party had a huge convention in 1968, and two of us were selected to argue against established leaders in the party that had been to prison with Pedro Albizu 9 �Campos for other kinds of things in the ’50s. And here we are, these young kids, debating them on the sort of procedure of things in the party and in conventions because we wanted more voice. The youth movements wanted more [00:16:00] voice in the party. So, within the party, there was all that debate. How do you make the party more democratic and sort of move towards [the real time?]? When they were sort of behind the times, as we thought, because they were still following the (Spanish) [00:16:17], the whole Albizu Campos movements, and all of that stuff, and (Spanish) [00:16:27] [Rivera?], and others, who we saw as good leaders who had done good things, but they belonged to another generation. We were the new generation coming in. So, yeah, we were involved in all of that stuff. I remember speaking in Bayamón before a mass of people and going like, “Wow, I’m speaking to this mass of people about members of the party who are old members of the party, and now the young people are taking over.” And Rubén Berríos was president of the party, and, for us, that was like, “Wow, he’s such a good speaker.” [00:17:00] He was such a good presenter, an economist, a doctor, you know. [In economics, he?] went to Oxford and Princeton, and we were impressed because we had sort of like a youthful leader that was taking the party in another direction, and it was a direction that was a little bit more aggressive, and it was going more to the streets, and there were demonstrations, as opposed to the old [guard?] that was negotiating -JJ: So, [it was?] (inaudible) as the old guard, or --? LB: No, he was a new guard. JJ: He was the new guard. 10 �LB: He was the new leader. He was young. He was energetic. He spoke so well, and, for us, every time he made a speech, it was like, “Wow.” So, I was affected by all this that I saw around me and people like him, who were remarkable role models for us as people that, when they grab a microphone at a podium, they mobilize masses, and I’m talking [00:18:00] about masses. You know, you’re talking 40, 50 thousand people, demonstrations like that. So, when I finished high school, I went to the University of Puerto Rico on a scholarship because we were too poor. I didn’t have money to really go there. And so, I would work at my father’s store and then go to the University of Puerto Rico, and I had to take a little (Spanish) [00:18:25], as we call them, (Spanish) [00:18:27], public transportation, every day. Had to get up at five in the morning to (inaudible) Barrio Borinquen -- JJ: (Spanish) [00:18:36] is what? Like a van, or --? LB: Yeah, it’s like a van, and it’s a public transportation van, and -- JJ: Versus a bus. LB: Versus a bus. And these things were out in the street since early, so, at five o’clock in the morning out of Barrio Borinquen, I took one of those. I took it to Caguas. And then, from Caguas, take another (Spanish) [00:18:56] to Río Piedras, and then, Río Piedras -- [00:19:00] they left you at the plazas, and you had to walk to the University of Puerto Rico. And when I went to the University of Puerto Rico is the first time I’ve seen a university. I didn’t know what that was. I heard a lot about it, and I heard about the demonstrations and all of that, but I didn’t really know what that is. And you had to do it between five in the morning 11 �and four o’clock because that’s when the (Spanish) [00:19:19] stop rolling. Okay? So, your classes had to be during the day. And then, at night, I’d work at the store, but I had to travel. I didn’t have money to stay, like many children of privilege did when they went to the University of Puerto Rico. They had their dorms and all of that. No, I lived in Caguas. I could take transportation and then go there. And, when I got to the University of Puerto Rico, I started to see some incredible things around me. I was already politicized enough that I had a sense that I had to join these movements. JJ: So, you were going there to study what? What was your major? LB: When I went to the University of Puerto Rico first, I was the general [00:20:00] studies, but I [had a concern of?] becoming a math teacher. I wanted to be a math teacher, so most of my work was in mathematics, and, actually, after two and a half years -- JJ: My worst subject. LB: Yeah. When I was at the University of Puerto Rico, they assigned me as a substitute teacher in the country, in (Spanish) [00:20:21], and the first one was in [Cidra?], Puerto Rico, and in (Spanish) [00:20:26], and I was teaching mathematics. I was teaching the new algebra, okay? In high school. But I was a substitute teacher. I wasn’t a certified teacher yet. It’s just that the system needed a lot of substitute teachers ’cause they didn’t have enough teachers. But, when I went to the University of Puerto Rico, I met a lot of young folks that were extremely brilliant people. The University of Puerto Rico at that time was sort of like a center of very bright young folks because you had to have above a 12 �3.5 GPA average to get [00:21:00] into the university, and you had to test among the top 10 percent on the SAT, you know, and I happened to do that, so I got a scholarship, and I went in. And, at the University of Puerto Rico, you were surrounded by the activism of thousands of people, and the student movement that was becoming increasingly large, and people like Florencio Merced from the Puerto Rican Socialist Party or people from the -- what it’s called the JIU, la Juventud Independentista Universitaria. These were amazing speakers. These were students of law. These were students of journalism, more advanced than us. They were older than us young guys, but they were models, you know, and you saw them standing on top of cars and doing these incredible speeches, and you would learn from them. As a matter of fact, I heard a chancellor, Puerto Rican chancellor, speak one day here in Milwaukee, [00:22:00] and, when he finished, I went up to him and says, “You sound very much like me. Where did you learn this from?” He says, “Well, I went to the University of Puerto Rico in 1966.” [I says?], “Me too.” But it was so large that you never got to meet people. We had the same models. JJ: You had the same what? LB: The same models. We learned from the same people. JJ: The same people, yeah. LB: We learned from the same people, but we never met. JJ: So, what were some other names of some of the people -- LB: Florencio Merced, [Miguel Ángel?] -- [I forget?] his last name. But they were people who -- student leaders at that time. And then the party leaders, 13 �(inaudible), people like Rubén Berríos and others, and they were there all the time, participating with us on issues because it was the Vietnam War, the ideological battles, trying to make Puerto Rico an independent country. And then, the larger issue of -- in the context of the university -- of the university’s independence [00:23:00] from the political [groups?] and the political process. And, at that time, we used to argue that the university should be a place of study and for people learning and not to be controlled by government. You know, at that time, it was a -- (Spanish) [00:23:18] didn’t matter. It didn’t matter who was in power. The issue is the university should have that independence. Unfortunately, like right now, the university doesn’t have that independence because it’s controlled by the party in power. And then, this whole movement towards accountability has become an excuse for parties to take over universities and crush the whole issue of academic freedom. JJ: Can you describe what a movement towards accountability -- what is that? LB: Well, this accountability really begins at a -- stronger during the Reagan years. Okay? And it’s about the notion that America’s [00:24:00] failing because of people like us, people in the street and people in schools, et cetera. So, you vilify the small folks, and you glorify the people at the top, the one percent that makes the money and the corporate folks. Business is always right. Nonprofit organizations are always wrong. That kind of thing. People in the community are always wrong. They just want to take and take from government, and they want government to work for them, and these corporate people, they made it on their own. It doesn’t matter that it was us that built the roads that create their 14 �revenues and their richness or that [it was?] working people that created the infrastructure that allows them to make all that money and become international. They seem to forget that. Okay? But we, in the ’60s in Puerto Rico, were being slightly affected then by this accountability thing, and we stop it, [00:25:00] and we develop movements to promote the idea that the people need to have a seat at the table. And they use what government had at that time, and they still use it today -- the police [have separate purpose?] too. And so, the police at the University of Puerto Rico were highly involved in crushing youth movements, and I remember being arrested at the University of Puerto Rico once at the School of Social Sciences with some other folks because there was a huge demonstration at the university, and the police came, and, boy, they grab us. They throw us to the floor. They kick us. They took us into a police station, and, with phone books, they beat the heck out of us and that kind of stuff, and we had to be -- the person that bailed us out was the dean of the law school at the University of Puerto Rico, who was more into equity and into [00:26:00] a university that was protecting the students at that time. So, we went through all of those experiences, so, after the beating, that’s when my parents said, “You got to get out of here,” you know, and, finally, I ended up here in Chicago. JJ: This is after you got arrested -- LB: Yeah. JJ: Your parents said, “Let me get you out --” LB: Yeah. JJ: “Out of here. We don’t want you arrested again.” 15 �LB: Exactly. And, “You’re putting yourself in danger, and this is not for you.” My father was very embarrassed. For example, my father was extremely embarrassed that policemen beat me up and slapped me around. JJ: So, he wasn’t angry with the police? He was embarrassed? LB: No, he was embarrassed, and he was angry at me that I was espousing ideological positions and things like that to have these policemen beating me up and all that stuff, and that was embarrassing. He felt that I shouldn’t do that, that I was not deserving of that kind of treatment if I was on the right track. Okay? So, his position was always a little bit different from [00:27:00] mine in that regard. Later, when my brother disappeared, he never let go of the feeling that he was responsible for not protecting his kids from the police and from repression in Puerto Rico, but that was later. See? So, as he got older, he started to rethink his positions. So, yeah. You know, my mother raised money, and they sent me to Chicago, and I came here. JJ: Did you know people in Chicago, or...? LB: I knew some people in Chicago where I used to live at -- they were from the barrio. Okay? And I had just got married at that time. I was living with somebody, and she had come here -- JJ: What year was this? LB: This was in late ’69, and I arrived here in 1970. I arrived in Chicago in February of 1970. [Used to remember the?] (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) -- JJ: ’70 or ’69? 16 �LB: ’70, yeah. [It was?] ’70, and it was cold like hell [00:28:00] outside. And, as I arrived in Chicago, the family I was staying at, which was on North Avenue and [Oakley?], that area, themselves, were Independentistas, and they were aware of everything that was going on, and they told me about, you know, these young kids took over People’s Church on Armitage. I didn’t know what the heck Armitage was or what was going on here, but it [smelled?] consistent with what I was doing in Puerto Rico, right? And so, I was -- when I left Puerto Rico, I left, really -- my whole heart was destroyed because I wanted to be a part of that movement, and I remember that all these people from the Puerto Rican Independence Party went to say goodbye to me at the airport. And so, coming to Chicago and finding out that people were doing things here against a system that was not working for people in general -- then, [00:29:00] the people in the house said, “There are some people that are meeting about this issue at People’s Church, and these kids are inside with weapons and protecting the church, you know? You should go in and talk to them too. Be a part of this.” And I said, “Yeah.” Made a lot of sense to me. So, that’s when I went to People’s Church, and you guys were inside already, and when I met Cha-Cha Jiménez for the first time there, and I met Omar López, and I always tell this story, that I felt a little bit odd because Omar was the first person I met from the Young Lords, and he was Mexican, you know? Not Puerto Rican. I thought this was a Puerto Rican movement. So, my idea of a Mexican was different, not involved in something like this, and we’d sort of joke about it and all that stuff, and I became involved, and I was introduced to Cha-Cha Jiménez, and I was sort of recruited right there. 17 �“Can you help us out? [00:30:00] You were involved at the University of Puerto Rico. Can you get involved here and help us organize an educational movement?” Because the Young Lords were talking about education. They had been doing educational stuff. They had been educating themselves and the community around them. So, the more of us that had some educational experience, the better, and, because I was from a barrio, not a child of privilege, it sort of made me be closer to people from the street. Okay? That had been in the street, doing things and struggling in the street as opposed to privileged kids that have this ideological [bent?] for a little bit, and then they go off to become lawyers somewhere else. Okay? JJ: So, you were asked to kind of set up some kind of classes or -- LB: Yes, I was -- JJ: -- some training. LB: I was asked, particularly by Omar López, who [00:31:00] I became very close to - and Omar, at that time, was living, I think, at Association House in the upstairs, and I was close enough, so I could just walk over there, and we would talk about how to further the education of the Young Lords. And Omar had been involved in the student movement here, so, for me, that was very impressive, that both him and his wife at that time, Ada, had been sort of like students in this movement too. So, we were able to talk in the language we knew, the language of students. The other members of the organization were more from the streets of Chicago. They had taken a number of political actions to stop repression, and that repression was in the form of government coming in, and taking over land, and 18 �not providing certain services, like free health clinics and things like that that needed to [00:32:00] happen. But everything moved around the fact that the Puerto Rican community in the Armitage area and Halsted area was being moved, was being pushed. I remember we used to talk about urban removal. Okay? So, how do you fight a system like that? You need to fight a system like that with good education and people who can speak and can present before audiences, so to be a little bit more participatory and more convincing. Okay? And then, Cha-Cha was a good speaker. And so, for me, when I got to the Young Lords, I was inspired also by the fact that there were people like Cha-Cha, and Omar, and [Alberto?], and others that were connecting to a larger understanding of a movement, and that movement [00:33:00] was affected by what the Black Panthers were doing, what the Brown Berets were doing, what people were doing in New York in the takeovers, what people were doing in California [and the?] Southwest, and you sort of heard about all of this because you were networking. And then, in the networking, you understood much better that this was not just us in Chicago -- there were more people doing this -- and that what was happening in Chicago is that people were a little more aggressive about doing certain things, more daring. You know, daring to be arrested, daring to go to the street, daring to have demonstrations. I participated in those demonstrations. I marched in those groups. I found myself with the Young Lords and before the UN in New York, marching and demonstrating. [I said?], wow. I would have never done that in Puerto Rico. And marches down Division Street and -- so, you’re surrounded [00:34:00] by the grandeur of movements of people 19 �resisting and fighting back and people talking about what they had just done, and the death of Fred Hampton, and the marches, and the riots in Chicago, and all of that. All of that talk, that discourse, was sort of affecting me personally because, now, if I had certain skills and education, I had to put those skills to work, and I had to work with others to identify the literature that was being read by folks in the movement to better understand what was going on everywhere. Okay? And that’s where I started to read more economics and read people like Marx, and I had touches on Marx at the University of Puerto Rico, but now, it was a little bit more formal, or reading (inaudible), or reading the others -- you know, Ho Chi Minh -- not because of who they [00:35:00] were as much as because they gave me additional tools and tools to understand the contradictions, these things that were going on. And so, I set up with Cha-Cha, and Omar, and others. I set up courses. It was like what I knew then. It was like formal courses at the University of Puerto Rico to teach young people about some of these folks, to get people to read more and to read more, and I was like a pain in the neck because I was telling people, “You got to read. You got to read,” because I was a reader, and I read everything that came my way. So, I wanted people to do that. I remember that, with the young women in the movement, I had these discussions one time because we were not doing -- yeah, sort of, we were not intellectuals trying to produce papers and all that kind of stuff, but they were sort of angry at me because I was pushing too much because, you know, I wanted them to read, and I wanted them to understand [00:36:00] things. And I kept on saying, “But you got to. You got to because we have to depend so much on people’s intellect 20 �in a movement like this and our ability to convince other people in the community.” And then, we had an idea of a newspaper and how to use the newspaper as an organizing tool, you know, that we would build into that newspaper news about the community, news about what was going on in all the country, and get it to people in our community in a bilingual fashion. Then, the idea that it had to reflect more what Mexicans and Puerto Ricans were going through, so we had in the paper, you know, little things with Zapata on one side and [Albizu another?]. The whole format had to be like that, but it took a lot of thinking. It took sort of a good understanding of what was going on in the movements, but we were not technicians that we knew how to do a newspaper, so we just imitated what other [00:37:00] people were doing, and doing layouts, and writing things in Spanish -JJ: What do you remember of some of the layouts? LB: Oh, yeah. Yeah. JJ: What do you remember [of it?]? LB: I had to do layouts. Yeah, and I had to figure things out, and these machines that we haven’t used before to type with two fingers, and do the little strips, and then the papers, and the columns because we had to be economical in how we put the columns in and all that kind of stuff. It costs money to do all of that stuff. And so, then we had to organize around that and get people to sell the newspaper and raise some money so that we could produce the next copy and the next copy. JJ: So, it was self-produced, or...? 21 �LB: It was self-produced. We did the whole thing. We work at it, and then Omar López was the minister of information, and he was responsible for the paper. I was the minister of education, and I was responsible for a lot of the content. And then, [00:38:00] Cha-Cha, you were mostly sort of like an inspirational piece, and you help us think about some things, and I remember we had many discussions about what kinds of things should we cover, and what kinds of things should we say? The next movement, how do we use the newspaper as an organizing tool? So, we were very much personally affected by what was going on, going to meetings. I remember that, once, they wanted you to speak. They wanted ChaCha to speak in some event, a student event in Carbondale. I didn’t know where Carbondale was. Cha-Cha said, “Well, you go,” and I didn’t know enough English. I said, “Oh, my God. How am I gonna do this,” right? Speak before a student body that I didn’t know how large. And the people that were involved was [Bernardine Dohrn?], who was gonna be speaking there, and then, she was a fugitive at that time. [00:39:00] I didn’t know. And (inaudible), who was her friend. And then, a group of people took me in a car with these fugitives, quoteunquote, to Carbondale, Illinois, and then they took us to the back door so that we could speak to the student movement. And, when I got up there, and I look at [it, I?] couldn’t see the end. There were masses of students. And I says, “Oh, my God. What do you say here?” And you spoken English, and you try your best to be as clear as possible, and you made the point in favor of a Young Lords movement that was emerging as a strong political force and that from becoming a street initiative, now, you had all this other activity and all this involvement that 22 �we could be a part of and present in a major student demonstration in Carbondale, Illinois. That, for me, was like, wow. That was very big. And then, getting into a car and sneaking you out, you know, [00:40:00] to Chicago. So, that was my sort of involvement in Chicago at that time. And then, I decided to go to Milwaukee. JJ: Before [you get to Milwaukee?]. Okay, so, now, you’re in Lincoln Park, and [there’s a Young Lords there in the church?]. You’re the minster of education. What was your impression of some of the Young Lords that hadn’t gone to school at all, that were just from the streets, from -- you know, ’cause we came right from the gang into the group without -- LB: That’s a very interesting point. My initial impression was that you had young people that were eager to do things, and they were daring because they had been in the streets. They would do things that I had not thought about doing before. You learn from that, and then you let them take the initiative, and you participate in it, but they were [00:41:00] daring acts. Okay? But they were not very well educated. They were people who were volatile, and they were individuals who were -- JJ: Volatile? LB: Volatile, and they were sort of -- [not?] very disciplined. Okay? You will call meetings, and people will [show or not show?] depending on that kind of stuff, or you would try to give some more structure to the organization, and you had to spend a bunch of time tracking people down and stuff like that. And it was different from being an organizer at the University of Puerto Rico, where the 23 �discipline was very high, and the kids that were at the University of Puerto Rico were very smart, and even those that came from poor neighborhoods were people who were very well prepared. And so, when you had a demonstration, you could count on 50 thousand people to go into the streets, and it was highly organized. Everybody was very responsible about different kinds of things. [00:42:00] When you come to Chicago, it’s not the same thing, but you have the passion. You have the people that are daring, and you want to be a part of that, so you have to get closer to the folks that are there, which I did. I got close, and I was part of the discussions and things like that, but I was always viewed as being more educated than other folks, and I was not different from them because I was also from the street but from a different place. JJ: And you were a member, right? LB: Yeah, I was a member, but I was, you know, from (inaudible) Puerto Rico, not the streets of Chicago, so I had to make my points, and Omar made his points, and you, and others, and what we learned in that process is that education was critical to everything we did, and we had to educate people to be a part of that movement. So, I had to find a way of taking people that were very undisciplined [00:43:00] and getting them to sit put for a little bit to do some reading. And then, we had to prepare modules that were not too long, you know, that were short enough so that people could read [it then?] and get into it. You could not expect people to read books, whole books. Some of us had to read the whole books, and we had to summarize it for others. So, we had classes to do that. And what my impression of that group is that, while it would take a long time because we 24 �had this vision -- we’re gonna be here doing this for the next 30 years, that kind of thing. Well, we had this vision of a movement that would continue to grow, very much like the movement in Puerto Rico had grown from something very undisciplined in the ’40s and ’50s to something very disciplined in the ’60s, that we could get there. And so, we had to develop tools to do that, and that’s -- the newspaper did that. The courses did that, and a bunch of thinking, [00:44:00] planning meetings. Boy, we came up with these planning meetings all the time, and we would sit around, and talk, and argue, and think about what’s next because that was part of our growth. Okay? And we would discuss what the Black Panthers were doing and the other party was doing, but we all learned through that process. JJ: And [were you?] using some of the Panther newspapers and films, or --? LB: Yeah. We were using some of that. We would look to, you know, the (inaudible) [of this world?]. We would look to the Angela Davises of this world and others as sort of like models that would teach us some things, and then we would read about them [raising up angry?], and they’d publish a newspaper, and we would read their paper. And we had a number of students that used to come around from the University of Chicago and other places to volunteer and help out, and we learned from those folks [00:45:00] too. Like, I remember I wrote a paper on the history of the Puerto Rican independence movement, and I wrote it in Spanish, and then it had to be translated into English, so the students from the University of Chicago help us translate that article. Okay? And it got into different kinds of things, like another version of the article got into the Journal of 25 �Puerto Rican Thought, and that’s when I met people that were editing sort of a scholarly journal of Puerto Rican intellectuals all over the country, and I found myself -- an article that I wrote -- in there, and you were like, “Wow.” But it came from a street movement, and people were recognizing that we can contribute to the sort of philosophizing and intellectual knowledge of our communities as they were growing. JJ: Okay. Okay, you said Milwaukee, and you moved to Milwaukee. [00:46:00] What was the reason for that? LB: I moved to Milwaukee because I felt the movement was changing here. Okay? Cha-Cha [had left. We were underground?]. There were more internal battles within the organization, and I thought at that moment that I had been to Milwaukee already. They had brought me to Milwaukee to speak to a group, and there was a very -- you know, a good movement in Milwaukee. It was very Puerto Rican, Mexican, everybody mobilizing in that community, and -- JJ: Did you know people there at all? LB: I knew a family. My family was there. I had an aunt who was married there. [I had that?] uncle, and I had cousins. And then, I was taken there by a group of folks because students and people from the community took over the University of Wisconsin, and they took me [00:47:00] over to a -- sort of like it was a consultation, you know? And a number of us went, and we discussed the takeover. Then, I came back to Chicago, and they took over [in?] Wisconsin. And then, right after that, I was asked to go to Milwaukee to speak, and I decided that Milwaukee would be a place for me to move to, mostly because Milwaukee 26 �had been a socialist community for many years. They had had socialist mayors until the 1960s, so Milwaukee was just coming out of a socialist stage. It’s a social democratic stage. There was a lot of community-based organizations and movements. It was really different from Chicago. You had (inaudible) asking people that -- shoot to kill and very extremely repressive, very nasty. People scatter all over the place, underground, running away from what was really a very [00:48:00] oppressive movement. The Milwaukee activity was a lot -- flourishing. Okay? Developing. People coming from the southwest of Milwaukee a lot, from Puerto Rico, and there were all kinds of organizations -- civil rights organizations -- following mostly Father Groppi at that time, who was an icon of the desegregation movement in Milwaukee. And I remember finding myself in some of these [things?]. I remember sitting in a meeting, and, on one side, I have Jane Fonda, and the other one, you know, I had some of the people from Father Groppi and that kind of stuff. So, I felt that I was being a part of something very significant there, and why I moved there -- I didn’t want to leave the Young Lords’ idea behind. I thought that it was a good thing. How do we bring it to other cities? Okay? [00:49:00] How do we expand the Young Lords from being a Chicago-based group that’s gone through up and downs but that needs to continue also in places where some of us that were in the Young Lords went to? So, I started [in our?] chapter in Milwaukee, and the newspaper that was being published here, then, I took it to Milwaukee with me because I got connected to a local newspaper in Milwaukee called La Guardia, and La Guardia was a Chicano newspaper. They needed a Spanish editor, and I could be the Spanish editor, so 27 �I became Spanish associate editor of La Guardia, and Lalo Valdez the English editor of La Guardia. And then, other people that were in the movement -Milwaukee, at that time, connected to Crystal City, Texas, where a lot of things were happening. JJ: What part of Milwaukee were you based? LB: I was in the South Side of Milwaukee and based -- the work I did was in that newspaper, and that [00:50:00] offered me the opportunity to bring the Young Lords into that setting. And then, the community-based organizations that were very close to what we were doing -- I ended up directing a community-based organization and doing the same thing that I was doing with the Young Lords. JJ: [At that time?]? LB: Yeah. JJ: During -- LB: During 1971. Doing the same thing that I was doing with the Young Lords in Chicago, sort of transferring that to Milwaukee, creating study groups. People will sit around, all these young people, you know, and they used to have, like, 20 people, and I was in the middle of these 20 people, discussing what is to be done [by learning?] and what is -- having people read different kinds of things. And then, I (inaudible), you know, [when I did?] the political stuff because I had an interest in literature, and I had done a lot of literature when I was in Borinquen. We had a literary circle, and we read Latin American literature [00:51:00] and all of that, and, in Milwaukee, I had the opportunity because, mostly, they were students. They were students in high school and students in college, unlike gang 28 �members in Chicago for a while that politicized themselves. Okay? So, I was able to say, “We got to read Gabriel García Márquez, and we got to read something from Guatemala, and we’re gonna have (inaudible) or the antiimperialist novels (inaudible),” and all of that stuff. I was able to do that and assign people to read these books that we had not read in Chicago but that people were now getting involved in writing about it and things like that. And the movement in Milwaukee as we saw it was we come in also more politicized, okay? In a different way from Chicago. It was just -- more community organizations [00:52:00] were sprouting everywhere, and they were growing, and I was running -- at the age of 24, I was running a community-based organization, and, for me, that was like, wow, you know? JJ: What was the name of that? LB: Yeah, Centro Nuestro. JJ: Centro -- okay. LB: Centro Nuestro, which I remember because I use as a base when Cha-Cha came to town and other Young Lords came to town, and people that were involved with the Young Lords nationally, we could come to town and now had a place to meet. I had a facility, so I could engage people in different kinds of meetings [allowing?] more of the larger thinking, the intellectual stuff, [where?] I keep on doing the basics (inaudible) community. I mean, welfare reform, health, those kinds of things that were affecting people the most, connecting people to jobs and things like that. And that helped me grow a lot. Because of that network, I met people that [00:53:00] were involved with the university because 29 �of the takeover at the university, and I became co-chair of something called the Council for the Education of Latin Americans with Roberto Hernández. There’s a center now in Milwaukee named after him because he died of a heart attack some years ago. And I was creating structures within the university to help increase Latino students to go to college, and we created a center there. And then, I started working with parents in the community because they were mobilizing, and there were these mass meetings about bilingual education in the schools. We need to get more bilingual services in the schools. Our kids are going to these schools that don’t understand them. And, all of a sudden, I found myself in front of these massive movements, and I remember going -- there are articles in La Guardia in Milwaukee and in the newspapers in the Historical Society, where I appear, [00:54:00] speaking before the school board and surrounded by this mass of parents and saying, “We’re not gonna go anywhere. We’re gonna take over the school district unless you do this, and this, and this, and that,” and reach an agreement with them on that. And that sort of prompted me to a position of friendship with people that were concerned about the university structures, and I was recruited to be part of a group that put together some alternative schools in Milwaukee, alternative schools for Latinos, and for whites, and for Blacks, and it was a form of integration, even though we had our own schools. And the university hired me to do some of that under a project that they had and sent me to school. So, my studies were being paid while I continued to do community work because it was a more progressive university system. There was a [00:55:00] progressive dean there, and there were people 30 �that -- sort of helping you, like Ricardo Fernández, who is now the president of Lehman College. JJ: Which college? LB: Lehman College in the Bronx in New York. So, he was -- JJ: Okay. He was working with you there? LB: Yup. At that time, he was in the school of education, director of the Spanish Speaking Outreach Institute, and sort of extremely helpful and sort of like a mentor, you know, saying, “You got to go to school. You got to take those credits from the University of Puerto Rico and bring them here, the credits you did, and I’ll get you connected to some of the people in the school to see if you can get a degree.” And then, I completed a bachelor’s degree, and, when I completed a bachelor’s degree within the university and they sort of saw you in the community, and moving in the masses, and stuff like that, they said, “Can you teach courses regarding that movement and what you’re doing?” I said, “Yeah, sure.” So, I started teaching courses at the University of [00:56:00] Wisconsin. I [had to be?] teaching courses at the University of Wisconsin. And then, Dr. Fernández and Dr. Adrian Chan, who were at the university at that time, said, “Somebody like you shouldn’t do a master’s degree. You should go right to the PhD.” And I said, “How am I gonna do that?” They said, “Well, challenge the university.” And I became the first student to challenge the University of Wisconsin on the issue that I didn’t have to do a master’s degree to go into a doctoral program. And so, there were all kinds of meetings, and arguments, and discussions about -- but these people stood behind me, and I was sort of like the 31 �poster boy, you know? [You sort of like to?] push, and I kept on saying, “I can do it. I can do it.” And they had me take these exams and all these exams, and I passed them all, and they were interesting because the questions they gave me were about union movements and -- so, I knew that stuff. I was able to write extensively about it. And [00:57:00] then, I went directly into a PhD program and finished a doctorate degree, but it was totally paid for. I mean, I wrote the proposal that brought the money to the University of Wisconsin. JJ: [The what?]? LB: For five people to go into a doctoral program to become bilingual educators, and I was one of them. I wrote myself into the proposal. So, everything was paid through that proposal, and the federal government provided resources to increase the number of Latinos that went into bilingual education, and I was one of them. So, that’s how I managed to get a doctorate degree. JJ: When was this? When --? LB: This was in the 1970s, late 1970s, and I finished -- you know, it took me about 15 years to finish a PhD because I was active in the community. So, I started, in the ’80s, doing the courses. I did all the courses in a couple years for the PhD, but then, to complete the [00:58:00] dissertation took me longer because I wanted to do -- I had this community thing in me, so I wanted to do a community-based dissertation, and my advisor kept on saying, “You’re crazy. No. Do something fast and get it out of the way.” I said, “No, no. I want to interview people in different parts of the country about educational movements in the communities and what people did. So, as part of my dissertation, I went to California, 32 �interview people that were in street movements of parents changing the schools, and I went to Texas and did the same thing, to New York, to Boston, here in Chicago. That took me all over the country, raising money so I could -- getting inside an old car, and driving all the way to New York, and going to the South Bronx, for example, and meeting Evelina Antonetty, who, at that time, had taken over the New York Board of Education, and this lady was like a [big mama?], you know. She was like the South -- there are streets named after Evelina [00:59:00] Antonetty in the South Bronx now since she died, but she became like a mentor, you know? She would call me, “Oh, you little [communist?], shut up,” and she would tell me what to do and all that kind of stuff. And then, I would go -- I remember, met with a group of parents in Boston, and they asked me to go out of the room for a little bit. They needed to talk among themselves, and it was to check me out. Okay? And then, some people talk -- “Is he a parent? Does he know something about parents? How come he talks that way? You’re a student at the university.” And, no, they [arranged?], and they brought me back, and they said, “Okay.” And then, I became part of parental movements, educational movements, university movements -JJ: Parental like PTA, or...? LB: No, we organized our own organizations. They were different from PTAs in the sense that they were community grown. They were moms and pops, Latinos that [01:00:00] were concerned about the education of their kids, and we had committees all over the place, and we went all over the country, doing that. I remember coming to Chicago to meet with some parent groups here and 33 �meeting people in Cleveland, Ohio that were involved in educational stuff, and having people in Cleveland, for example. There were two women, [Nati Pagan?] and Daisy Rivera, who were extremely involved in educational issues since their time in Boston. They were involved in the Boston desegregation case with Harvard University law students of Puerto Rican descent. And, you know, now, these universities had Latinos, and you got these Latinos involved, and they became very sophisticated, so they developed a bilingual movement in Cleveland, and they asked me to go to meet with the parents about the strategies that we used in the Milwaukee case. Okay? Because, in [01:01:00] Milwaukee, we had to reach agreements with the school district on bilingual education. And so, that helped me a lot because I knew, through this network, people that were really, really smart and who were grassroot. They were people from the street. They were people who had built movements, not because they were members of PTAs or PTOs. They were people who believed in community control of the schools, and the community control movement was something that had been big in the ’60s. Well, in the early ’70s, it was really big in many of our communities all over the country. So -JJ: And what did that mean, community control? What was that? LB: Well, it meant that, even in communities like Milwaukee, where we were less in numbers, we were growing faster. We knew something about data, about evidence. We knew that our kids were gonna really be part [01:02:00] of that power structure at some point, and we wanted to humanize them so that they wouldn’t be part of the corporate world, you know, smashing us when they got to 34 �the top. And the movements that evolved to do that had to be people’s movement, a democratic movement, and we had to argue that, if the schools didn’t do certain things for us, we had to do it for ourselves. So, that’s why we created [alternative?] schools. That’s why we created education movements in the community. We used to write for grants and seek foundation money to create institutes of parent growth, parent development, and things like that, and that sort of put us in a situation of a lot of community power. So, when I went to the school board, for example, in 1974, I appeared before the school board to argue what we came up with in terms of a bilingual [01:03:00] movement in the school district that we felt would empower the parents in the community, and there would be a closer link between community and the schools where the kids went to. And then, they told me that they didn’t think that they could do that, and I could stand before a school and say, “Well, if you can’t agree to this, next week, at this date, at 10 o’clock in the morning, we’re gonna ask all Latino students in all of the schools of Milwaukee to walk out. Okay?” And they look at me like, “Eh,” you know. That day, they had these parents organize with (Spanish) [01:03:38] and all this stuff in the parks, and, at 10 o’clock, the doors opened, and all the Latino kids from all the schools came marching out. We had this big event. [The workers were a part?], and the parents were serving food to their own kids, and the police came, but why would they attack kids? It was like they had to be careful about that because the press was [01:04:00] there. And so, we saw that as a great victory. We told the public schools, “You see? When we want, we tell kids to walk out. They’re gonna walk out, so you’re gonna sit at the 35 �table with us.” And they sat at the table with us, and, three days later, we came up with a bilingual plan in Milwaukee, and the bilingual plan became the base for parent groups all over the country to say, “They did it in Milwaukee. We can do it here too.” JJ: And what’s the basis of the bilingual plan or education? LB: It’s taken an interesting in number of years. We reached an agreement with Milwaukee Public Schools in May 7, 1974. ’74. Okay? Then, we increased the population of Latinos working in the public schools and the level of parental involvement and parental participation. And, whenever you do that, you know, the people you bring into these positions at the [01:05:00] university or at the community level -- you have a number of people that become more comfortable and don’t become part of a movement, but you have a number of people that stay with it, and we stayed with it over the years, and we’ve reached a point, after almost 30 years, where, now, we can go to the public schools and say, “Milwaukee, Wisconsin was always supportive of the idea of language education because of us, okay? Because we created a consciousness, and we had German immersion schools, and French immersion schools, and Italian, and bilingual programs for Hispanics, and all of that. Why don’t we go to the next step now? Why don’t we rebrand Milwaukee as a city that embraces the idea that everybody should be bilingual?” And you have a superintendent of schools that says, “That makes sense. That makes sense.” You’re no longer dealing now with the resistance that you would find before. You have a school board that says, “That makes sense,” [01:06:00] and you appear before a committee of the 36 �board, and you tell them about this idea, and you get a unanimous vote by a school saying, “We should do that. We should try to move all of the schools in our system to become bilingual schools. Let’s start somewhere.” So, we’re at a point right now where bilingualism and the idea that kids in this country, poor kids, kids from the community, like rich kids, whose parents send them to other countries for immersion in another language, or their schools teach them multiple languages, now we can say poor kids, when they go to a school, their language doesn’t need to be suppressed, their native language. They can retain their language, grow that language, and become bilingual, and a global economy, that needs bilingual folks. Okay? And so, we’re at that point in the Milwaukee movement. Now, we can coordinate with the [01:07:00] city council, the superintendent of schools, with the school board, with community groups, parent groups, the bilingual teachers, you know, who are now looking at us as -- they’re not that crazy. This makes sense. So, the Wisconsin Association for Bilingual Education creates something that they call the Tony Baez Leadership and Advocate Award for the state of Wisconsin so that only people that do what I’m doing in education can get that award. Those are significant things. That’s not about me. It’s about the fact that you stay with it through these years, and people recognize that your involvement was really about humanizing how we do things here and taking our time so that, now, we can say, because of our population, the size of our population now we’ve grown, you know, it makes a lot of logical sense to [01:08:00] have this kind of stuff. But there’s been a growth, and people are also more educated about it, and now, we have more educators. 37 �I mean, the University of Wisconsin, Marquette University, Cardinal Stritch, they all want in it. Milwaukee Area Technical College [has scholars, see?]. And these scholars are saying, “Oh, that makes a lot of sense. Can we be part of this [committee?]? Can we be part of this effort?” So, we develop a memorandum of understanding so that all these institutions can sign to it and say, “We’re gonna grow the number of Latinos teaching in these different areas so that we can support the idea that Milwaukee should be a bilingual town.” JJ: Now, is that related to -- you were talking earlier about -- LB: Absolutely. JJ: -- the alderman --? LB: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. It’s related to the idea that -- JJ: Someone just got elected or something? LB: Exactly. It’s related to the idea that -- JJ: Who got elected? LB: José Pérez got elected alderman in the 12th District in Milwaukee. [01:09:00] But all I’m saying is that you sort of start somewhere. You develop an understanding, a commitment, a passion for doing certain kinds of things. You grow, and you affect other people around you, right? And the people that are around you start doing things. So, José Pérez is the son of (inaudible), who used to be the principal of one of our two language schools. And so, he’s part of a second generation, so you saw him grow since he’s little, and his commitment to community is more along the lines of, you know, “I care about this. I grew up here. My mom was involved in these movements.” Okay? And his mom worked 38 �closely with who today is the president of the teachers’ union. Okay? So, you have all these connections, and everybody knows everybody, and the person that’s on the school board right [01:10:00] now was a member of -- his wife was the movement that organized from 9to5. JJ: Who is this person? LB: Larry Miller. His wife was Ellen Bravo, who wrote a book about women working from nine to five and developing a national movement, and she appears in 60 Minutes, and NBC, and all that stuff. So, you have all these people who were part of movements in the ’60s and ’70s, were affected by it, developed the passion for it, and are now sort of friends, and connected, and coming together, and you can say to José, “Not only is your district going to be affected by this bilingual plan, but there are people as high as the White House [that will be?] part of your kitchen cabinet to help you think through this.” Okay? And people that are connected in political circles all over the country [01:11:00] are going to be part of that thinking. JJ: Okay. Any final thoughts? LB: I think that the lesson that I’ve learned from all of this is that, when you become part of a movement in your youth, if you are not participating in that movement sort of from the outside, when you’re part of it, you’re in it, you grow with it. And the movements in this country change. They have to change because of the circumstances, and the population, and how we become involved, and, as we become older, we also get connected to jobs because we have to live and work, and you have kids, and now I have grandkids and children, and all of that -- 39 �JJ: What are your children’s names? LB: They’re in Milwaukee, and -- JJ: What are their names? LB: The older one is [Luis?], who is [01:12:00] very involved in the whole thing of health. Okay? [Pablo?], who is highly involved in the Milwaukee community, works for the American Society for Quality, has two beautiful girls that are Chicano (inaudible), you know, and Luis has married to an African American woman, so he married African American, my other son married a Chicano, and my daughter married African American, and she has children too. And so, all of these kids are connected to what they see their grandfather doing, and, even though they don’t follow what you’re doing, they’re generating their own flow of things, and I think that what happens too is that, when you are part of a movement, you want to leave that with other people, so I mentor a lot of people. A lot of people. And, throughout the years, you learn how to be more [01:13:00] sensitive, more understanding, but still pushing positions of more community empowerment, community control, developing leaders who don’t look at how deep their pockets are, but how they’re connected to communities. So, if I get involved in succession training, I take to my home people who I know are promising leaders in the community, young folks, and I feed them. I cook for them, do all of that stuff, and put the food away and say, “Now, we’re gonna talk.” And you spend time talking with them, and they sort of think of you as this grandpa that was involved in some of these things, and now, I was trying to [leave with them?] before I disappear so that the next generation, you know, 40 �carries that forward. So, we have to think time-wise that this is something that’s not gonna end now and that all of us that [01:14:00] were involved in the ’60s and the ’70s, we lived experiences that we have to share with others, and those experiences made us stronger, and more passionate, and more responsible, and having the community integrity. And so, we have to pass that on to other people because the people today did not live the civil rights movements and these community struggles that we lived. Okay? They’re living something different. Now, the movements are about a different kind of civil rights. They could be about schools, but they’re also about undocumented people, and about how do we build solidarity with the African community, and how do we continue with those struggles? So, I learned a lot about that, and I think -- I’d write about it. I speak to people. I became more [techy?] about it, and, in my presentations wherever I go, I try to inspire others to do likewise so that [01:15:00] people continue, and I think that’s the big lesson, that these are things that are gonna change over time, and we change over time, but we have to give to others so that others start doing the kinds of things that we believe in because making change and transforming a society like this one takes a long time. That’s what you learn. It takes a very long time. Okay? So -JJ: Now, you’re talking about getting income (inaudible) for survival and all that. LB: Mm-hmm. JJ: Where do you work now? LB: Right now, I’m the executive director of the Council for the Spanish Speaking in Milwaukee. The Council is an organization that is the oldest Latino-serving 41 �organization in the state of Wisconsin. Okay? And it’s best known for having developed, since the ’60s, an agenda with poor and working-class people. And so, that was closer to me. Not organizations that wanted to build [01:16:00] a Latino middle class or to engage more Latinos in the corporate sector, you know, or in corporations and professionals getting up there somewhere else on boards and things like that. No, this organization was about poor people, and poor people’s movements, and mobilizing to improve the lives of people. Okay? And I was a provost at the Milwaukee Area Technical College, and -JJ: [What is provost?]? LB: Yeah, provost is a vice president of academic affairs, and there are co-provosts in many universities because, by legislation, they are independent from presidents. Okay? That means that you control the academic agenda of a university. Okay? And the president will try to tell you what to do sometimes, but the only way he can get around that is by firing you. Because you have [01:17:00] protection, you can -- the academic freedom is there. And I was provost of the Milwaukee Area Technical College, which is the third largest technical college in the country, so I had 160 partners under my supervision, and that was huge. You know, a kid from the Barrio Borinquen that goes through this process in the streets and marching, and, all of a sudden, he’s inside a university, a two-year college at that point, and then also teaching in four-year colleges and university systems, and you earn a certain level of respect when you enter a position like that. At one point, I was the highest-level Latino educator in the state of Wisconsin. And so, you get into circles with white folks 42 �that are in these other committees and things like that, and you can argue your point, and you can humanize curriculum that affects a whole state or that affects the education of [workers in?] [01:18:00] the whole country. Okay? You can do that. So, the White House has a Latino education excellence agenda, and they have staff related to that, but they know that, when they call Milwaukee, they can call me because I was a provost. I have legitimacy now. Okay? And I am involved in educational circles. So, they will call me. He says, “What do you think about this? What do you think about that?” And it’s government calling you, or somebody from the Department of Labor who called me just yesterday, and he says, “Look. I’m with the Department of Labor of the United States, and when --” Because I call him back in the evening, and I said, “Excuse me for calling you back so late. I was in a meeting.” He says, “No, no.” Because, when you call people that work for the president of this country, “[We need to?] hear you, and we wanted to reach you, and we are gonna have some officials coming to Milwaukee. Can you handle that?” So, now, government is sort of [01:19:00] respectful of the position you play in a particular community, and they call you for things. Not that they agree with you. It’s not an issue of agreement. So, if the White House invites me into a meeting that they have for Latinos in the White House with 150 leaders nationally, you can go into that meeting, and you can argue with the lawyers from Homeland Security and the Department of Justice, and I could say things like -- (inaudible) [this week?]. “No, that’s irrelevant, Dr. Baez, because we’re not discussing this.” “No, no, no. No, no. That is relevant.” Okay? And they go, “No, no. That’s not relevant. We’re lawyers.” I said, “I don’t 43 �care if you’re lawyers. Okay? That is relevant. I’m not gonna go back to the Latin community and say that they have to put pressure on what they’re doing, stop doing this, stop doing that, to save money, and you guys are not suing those rascals that are going away with 50 million dollar bonuses. Okay? You know why you’re not suing them?” I says, “I can tell you [01:20:00] why. ’Cause they have better lawyers than you do. So don’t pull the wool over our eyes.” Now, we can say -- in the White House, we can say that. Okay? Before, we were in the street, fighting in demonstrations. We haven’t given that up. We still do that. We still demonstrate and march. Like, the last immigrant march in Milwaukee was 80 thousand people, and I was there, marching with everybody else. But we also have standing because of our preparation, and the way we talk, and the way we read. We know what’s going on. We know the economics of Wall Street. We know the political systems and things like that. And then, you’re gonna have a university inviting me to speak before chancellors and the Department of Economics of a major university about how the economic, financial crisis is affecting Latinos. And you didn’t have that before, you know. So, they are now listening because they know that we are [01:21:00] growing as a Latino community. In the 1970s, we had no idea how big the Latino community was gonna be, but, as we see it growing now, and we see the immigration movements, and we see that the majority of the growth is because of Latinos that are citizens, that live in this country, and that, you know, the media and others are making it sound like it’s just immigrants, and stuff like that, and undocumented people, and it’s not. It’s because we are part of a change, and 44 �we’re changing the face of America, and, therefore, we need to have people that can speak and raise issues on our behalf. I remember going before the city council once, and there was somebody raising some other issues, and, “Well, he doesn’t represent the Latin community,” and one of the aldermen said, “Oh, no, no. He does. He does. He is one of those --” And an alderman said this [in there?]. He says, “He is one of those people in the community who earned, [01:22:00] throughout the years, the respect, and we have to hear what he has to say. He may come here and say he doesn’t represent the community, but he’s here because he’s a Latino, okay? So, you listen to him.” And that’s sort of like, wow, somebody’s understanding on the other side that you don’t represent everybody in the community, but you can speak with a certain level of authority about the history of a community [in exchange?]. JJ: So, final thoughts, but the Young Lords -- what do you think their contribution was to this whole --? LB: Growth that they helped me develop a passion like I never would have had if I hadn’t been part of that movement. I was at the University of Puerto Rico, developed a certain type of passion there. Okay? But, when I came to the Young Lords, I developed a sort of -- I built upon that passion. Okay? [01:23:00] Now, from student bodies, I saw community folks trying, and working, and developing, and you go like, “Wow. All these people that died because of this and the people that tried their best in spite of the fact that they didn’t have all the tools available to them --” So, as you acquire more tools and you diversify, you go like, “Wow. I’m growing because of a perspective, you know, a way of looking 45 �at the world that I developed when I was a member of that organization,” and the Young Lords helped me do that because I became active in that. So, for example, while in the 1960s and the early 1970s, I didn’t play the guitar or sing. When I started doing that -JJ: I remember your guitar. LB: Yeah. When I started doing that and developing that, in my own barrio, I’m a nobody because people there -- my brother’s a master musician, so, you know. But, [01:24:00] in Milwaukee, there was nobody doing songs of social political content. Okay? And I had that perspective because of the movement and the Young Lords. So, when I started developing that, and playing, and appearing in a concert -- all of a sudden, I’m in a concert, doing a concert before a whole mess of people, and then being invited to do a concert in [New Orleans?], and California, and New York, and places like that -- you are singing before large masses of people and crowds, and I sang before masses of three, four thousand people, like singing before the mariachi festival in Tucson, Arizona in the late 1970s. When I did that, there were thousands and thousands of people there, listening to mariachis, but they heard the singing of this lone guitarist, you know, conveying a message of transformation, peace, of revolution. [01:25:00] And you now have a forum, but you developed that. I could have gone into salsa, and (inaudible) stuff. Other people were doing that. No, I had to do something different that pertained to what I knew, and that was because of how I was affected by the Young Lords movement, by a community movement, and, throughout the years, staying with it. Yeah. 46 �JJ: Okay. Any final thoughts? LB: I think I said it all. [Thanks?]. JJ: All right, Tony. Thank you. END OF VIDEO FILE 47 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4306fb22aa487da3aa251cd6801a0d0f.mp4 1e0c6029a26f559db9f4bf7cd4d439b8 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Luis "Tony" Baez vídeo entrevista y biografía Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puertorriqueños--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Puerto Rico--Autonomía e independencia movimientos Activistas comunitarios--Wisconsin--Milwaukee Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Baez_Luis Title A name given to the resource Luis "Tony" Baez video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Baez, Luis Description An account of the resource Luis "Tony" Baez arrived in Chicago from Barrio Borinquén of Caguas, Puerto Rico in 1969 and soon became Minister of Education of the Young Lords. In Puerto Rico, Dr. Baez was also active with the Puerto Rican Independence Party (PIP), the electoral component of the broad movement in Puerto Rico, fighting for Puerto Ricans to regain back control of their nation. By 1970, Dr. Baez moved from Chicago to Milwaukee and set up a Young Lords chapter. They maintained a community office and distributed the Young Lords Newspaper (that Dr. Baez had also helped to publish while in Chicago), focusing primarily on neighborhood organizing, community-based programs, and bilingual education. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puerto Ricans--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Puerto Rico--Autonomy and independence movements Community activists--Wisconsin--Milwaukee Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-08-23 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Young Lords collection (RHC-65) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3e1bb646ba3d9c01479b2c50716841e7.pdf 64f38880d1a6bbc237add67415786909 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Luis Garden Acosta Interviewer: Jose Jimenez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 10/25/2012 Runtime: 01:59:23 Biography and Description Oral history of Luis Acosta, interviewed by Jose “Cha-Cha” Jimenez on October 25, 2012 about the Young Lords in Lincoln Park. "The Young Lords in Lincoln Park" collection grows out of decades of work to more fully document the history of Chicago's Puerto Rican community which gave birth to the Young Lords Organization and later, the Young Lords Party. Founded by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, the Young Lords became one of the premier struggles for international human rights. Where thriving church congregations, social and �political clubs, restaurants, groceries, and family residences once flourished, successive waves of urban renewal and gentrification forcibly displaced most of those Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, working-class and impoverished families, and their children in the 1950s and 1960s. Today these same families and activists also risk losing their history. �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: It was, what, a significant day? LUIS ACOSTA: It was a significant day for my mother and father, I’m sure, when I was born on March 17, 1945. But apparently, someone -JJ: And [who’s?] your mom and dad? LA: Apparently, more to the case, it was a day of great celebration for the nurses that were in the hospital because they were all, it seemed, Irish, at least wanted to be Irish. And so they were shouting and screaming at my mother that “He’s gotta be called [Patrick?], he’s gotta be called Patrick.” And my mother had no idea what they we’re talking about, but she kept hearing the word Patrick, and so that’s the name that stuck. So Luis Garden Acosta is this public figure that my family sometimes remembers as, oh, that’s Patrick, right. (laughter) But that’s the name, I mean, nobody obviously outside the family calls me Patrick, it’s -- JJ: And what was the date and --? LA: March 17 -- JJ: March 17, what -- LA: -- nineteen forty-five. JJ: -- nineteen forty-five, that’s right. LA: Right, [0:01:00] but it was -- JJ: And it was here, it was here? LA: It was right here in Brooklyn, and, you know, I’ve lived in Brooklyn on and off ‘cause, obviously, I went away for school and came back. But, I’m a child of the 1 �’50s who came of age in the ’60s and, slowly but surely, began to see that so many of us were oppressed. I lived in what was then the largest housing project in the world, Fort Greene houses, and certainly the poorest in New York City. The most violent in terms of gangs, the Mau Mau, Chaplains, and other gangs that were circling around it, so it was a very tough upbringing. My father died when I was seven, and the wind got knocked out of us. I mean I -JJ: You mentioned his name, right? LA: His name was Luis. JJ: Luis (inaudible) -- [0:02:00] LA: He’s Luis -- JJ: -- Junior? LA: -- [Agosto?], I’m Luis Acosta, kept the a in there. JJ: And your mom -- LA: But thank God -- JJ: -- (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LA: -- he wanted to make sure that I wasn’t a junior. JJ: And your mom? (laughter) LA: Good for him, thank you, Pop. JJ: And your mom’s name, Luis? LA: My mom is Maximina Acosta from Boquerón -JJ: And your -- LA: -- but everybody calls her [Mina?]. JJ: -- your siblings? 2 �LA: My sister is [Linda?]; I only have one sibling. She lives in Wisconsin with her husband, and she’s become a country bumpkin, they both have, although her husband would always tell me that he couldn’t get used to the country. He’s a real devoted aficionado of John Coltrane. He’s a medical doctor, African American, born and raised in Roxbury, much where I saw you last actually. And, you know, he would go in every weekend to Boston, [0:03:00] but he told me -not every weekend, every weekend of the John Coltrane Festival every year. And he told me the last time he went that he doesn’t know whether he’s gonna go anymore. I said, “Well, why not, [Edison?]?” He says, “Well, you know, I found the people to be rude,” (laughter) so he’s, kind of, gotten used to the country and the country ways so that -- she’s in Wisconsin. My mom died two years ago at the age of 97, and as I said, my father died when I was 7. Now, I can look at my birthday pictures, and I look at pictures throughout my life up to that point. I’m so well-dressed, I’m fat, I have, you know, every toy that you can imagine, I’ve got all the stuff we were living in, in the housing projects, of course. And that was due to the fact that, at the time of my birth, those housing projects had just been built for people involved in the war effort. And my father was a hard hat at the Brooklyn Navy Yard, [0:04:00] so he was eligible. So, it was like a first step for the working class in that part of Brooklyn. And it was very diverse, mostly white housing project, but by the time my father died, it was becoming more Black. And then of course as I became an adolescent, it became more an African American community and Latino community, so... JJ: And this was (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) 3 �LA: -- so I remember that -- JJ: -- what section of Brooklyn? LA: -- this is the -- it’s called Fort Greene. JJ: Fort Greene, okay. LA: And I remember that I began to realize this whole question of resources, economics, money when my father died because my mom would tell me in her suffering, long suffering of my father’s death. It was sudden. He never had gone to a doctor in his life -- oh, to a hospital rather in his life. And one day he’s not feeling well, he goes to the hospital, [0:05:00] a week later, he’s dead of rheumatic fever and pneumonia and complications. All of which he would not obviously die today, he’d recover and go home in a week, but in those days, the medicines that we take for granted today just weren’t there. So, we realized that we had no money, that all we had was a Social Security check, and at that point, that was less than what my mother could get on welfare. So that meant that I would have to wear army clothes from the Korean War to school because those were the hand-me-downs that my cousins, coming back from the war, would give me to wear. Means I couldn’t expect much at Christmas, if anything, and that I had to work to a paper route and other jobs that I took on to get presents for my daughter as – daughter, here we go -- my sister, who really felt like my daughter at that [0:06:00] point. Because I really had to look out for her so that she could get and have at least some of the things that I enjoyed when I was growing up. Christmas presents, all of that stuff, and I make sure she had them, but it was very tough. And I remember one day, my mother was very stressed out and 4 �didn’t know what to do. Everybody kept telling her, “You should go to the welfare department, you should go to the welfare department.” She didn’t wanna do it, but finally, she goes to the welfare department. Now, I saw my mother cry twice in my life -- the day my father died, and she was inconsolable, and the day that she went to the welfare department. She came back, you know, I hear fumbling in the door, I open the door, she’s crying, wailing away. I thought somebody had died. I said, “Ma, what’s wrong, what’s wrong?” She said, “I am never, ever, ever going back to those people, I am never going back. They treated me [00:07:00] like an animal, I will never, ever, ever go back to those people. We’re gonna somehow survive without them,” and she was so adamant about it. And I think the rage that I had against the welfare department started there, that moment. That what could they have done to my mother? How could they have talked to my mother in such a way for her to feel that way? I will never forgive whoever the bureaucrat was that did that. But the whole system was a mess, and I think that moment, the seed was planted in me to cast my lot with the poorest of the poor, and to mobilize and work to empower our community, people like my mom and the people I grew up with. I remember once, now that I think about it, the other moment in my life when I began to realize that the welfare department was something to be feared and [00:08:00] changed was one day when being taken care of... My mother went back to work at the factory, sewing machine, you know, like so many of our mothers, sewing undergarments and for very little money, by the way. And so I was being taken care of by the neighbor downstairs on the first floor, and she had other kids. And so there’s a knock on 5 �the door, and suddenly, she says, “Quick, hide him under the bed,” me. So I’m going, “What’s goin’ on here? Is somebody gonna shoot us or something,” you know?” I’m put underneath a bed, and one of her kids says, “Don’t you say a word until we tell you to come out.” Now, can you imagine -- I dunno, I must have been eight or nine, I forget [00:09:00] -- being hid under a bed without any explanation? I dunno if someone’s gonna come in with a gun and kill them, I dunno what is going on, I mean my imagination went wild. I mean, I just was praying to God that this would be okay. And I remember saying, “What, who was that?” He says, “It’s the investigator.” I said, “Who’s the investigator?” I said, “Who’s the --?” but, you know, they didn’t let me talk. They just told me to keep quiet until the investigator left, and then they said, “Okay, you can come out now, everything’s okay.” I said, “Well, what happened?” They said, “No, we can’t let the investigator see you.” I said, “Well, why not?” They said, “Well, because that’s the way welfare works.” “Welfare?” He says, “Yeah, you know, that’s how. ‘Cause, you know, our father died --” By the way mysteriously killed by somebody, they just found his remains on the street,” and a very nice family too. [00:10:00] “--and so we had to go on welfare, and, you know, they don’t allow Mom to have any other kind of money coming in. And since your mother pays my mother for a few dollars, she can’t tell them that because we need the money.” JJ: Why do you think your father was killed? LA: Their father? JJ: Oh, their father. 6 �LA: Their father. To this day, they don’t know, they just found his remains on the street, I have no idea, it was horrible, so anyway. Now, my dad died of natural causes, you know? JJ: Mm-hmm. LA: Unnatural today, but then of course, you know, without the medicines, a very common occurrence. So, I think that those moments in my life, you know, if you asked me what went on in my world to make me think that I wanted to do something about the injustice [00:11:00] that I saw. I think certainly the issue of the welfare department was big. Now, I remember once also that -- and this is kind of comical. You know, again, I was doing everything I could to make money, I mean I would sell Christmas cards, I would do all kinds of stuff I would sell. My mother would make handkerchiefs because that’s what she did in Puerto Rico to survive, you know, and I would sell those, door-to-door, and I had a paper route. So, I remember that the worst day for the paper route was a Wednesday because that’s the day that they put in all the advertisements and coupons and stuff. I said, “Oh, man, Wednesday, my arm would be dead,” you know, because I had to carry those things. And on this particular Wednesday, everybody is talking to each other, all the men that I would deliver this to and people on the street, about O’Malley and how horrible it was and cursing at him. And I’m saying, [00:12:00] “Who’s this guy O’Malley?” and I’m going like, “What is this all about?” Everybody was totally upset. So I finally asked somebody, I said, “Why is everybody upset about this guy, you know?” And he says, “Oh, it’s because he’s taking the Brooklyn Dodgers from us.” I said, “He can’t take the Brooklyn 7 �Dodgers from us. I mean that’s the Brooklyn Dodgers, I mean that’s Brooklyn, Brooklyn owns the Brooklyn Dodgers, right?” “No, Brooklyn does not own the Brooklyn Dodgers.” “Well, how come it’s the Brooklyn Dodgers?” “Well, kid, you know, you gotta grow up. The Brooklyn Dodgers are owned by one guy, his name is O’Malley, and he’s a bad guy, and he’s taking them to LA or somewhere in California.” And I said, “Oh, that’s not possible, how can one person own a baseball team? That’s insane.” I mean to my mind how can one human being own a community’s baseball team? It didn’t make any sense. Well, of course, I began to learn a little bit about capitalism then [00:13:00] and much to my horror. So, I think those, you know, moments in my life, and one very critical moment I think that really addressed it all was behind my thinking. It was a very early age, a young age, and I was in Catholic school. I went to Catholic school all my life, except for Harvard. Harvard was my first public school, and that’s how we Catholics talk about it, you know? JJ: Yeah, what was the name of this school, the Catholic school? LA: St. James. JJ: St. James. LA: St. James Pro-Cathedral because it was built as a cathedral -- as taking the place of a cathedral that was never built. So eventually, they threw in the towel and said, “Okay, it’s the cathedral, right, and now it’s a basilica,” so, but then, it was Pro-Cathedral. And, you know, one day, we’re going through The Sermon on the Mount. [00:14:00] And the sister is talking about what is sometimes referred to as The Last Judgment Gospel -- I think of it as the Community Gospel 8 �-- where Christ is talking and trying to describe what are the principles of a good life. When he says, “At the end of the world, people will be divided.” On this side will be one group, and on the other side will be the other group. And he will say to the group on his right hand, he will say, “Come beloved of my father, for you have given me to eat when I was hungry, you gave me to drink when I was thirsty, you sheltered me when I was homeless, you visited me when I was in prison or sick,” or what we call the seven corporal works of mercy in the Catholic church. [00:15:00] And, of course, some will say, “When did we do this? We never saw you, we never really did see you, so we couldn’t have done that.” He said, “Because you did it to the most oppressed, you did it to me.” Just, you know, those words, “‘Cause you did it to the most oppressed, you did it to me.” And then, of course, the other group, because you did not give me to eat when I was hungry, did not give me to drink when I was thirsty, did not visit me when I was in prison, in the hospital, et cetera. For you did not and -- treat me as a human being.” And they’re gonna say, “Well, we never saw you, we never did that.” “‘Cause you didn’t do it to the most oppressed, to the lowliest of us all, you didn’t do it for me.” And I was pretty shocked by that [00:16:00] because as the sister explained, that this was the basis on which people would go to heaven. And I’m going, “Wait a minute now, it’s not going to mass every Sunday?” “No.” “What about eating meat on Friday?” “No.” “Really? It’s not about the rosary every day?” “No.” “It’s not about the nine first novenas?” I got my list, you know. He said, “Well, all those things you’re supposed to do and you have to do, and of course, if you don’t, it’s a big sin, et cetera, et cetera. But what Christ is saying at 9 �that moment is that that is how you treat your fellow human being that is the basis of your eternal life.” And it said in the Gospel, how can you love God who you can’t see if you can’t love your neighbor who you can see? [00:17:00] I think that was the most indelible impression, and so -JJ: And how old were you then? LA: I was in grammar school. JJ: Grammar school. LA: Grammar school. So you had that and then the welfare incidence and then the O’Malley thing. See, all that happened in grammar school, so I’m like, “Oh, okay.” Now that I’m thinking about it, one other thing. I guess there’s many things when I’m -- you know, it’s funny, it’s interesting as I talk now, I’m beginning to see how this Young Lord happened. JJ: So who were your friends in grammar school? LA: Well, that’s what I wanted to say. My best friend was an African American. Now, I went to Catholic school, as I said, and one of the wonderful things about the school was that it was a working-class, mostly White school. But I say wonderful because I got to meet Italian Americans, Irish Americans, Polish Americans, and we were very, very tight. My best friend [00:18:00] was an African American, and it was interesting because he lived in Farragut Houses. And Farragut Houses were built, sort of, one step up, so we, kinda, looked at him like almost middle class, they were not at all. But, you know, like I lived in an apartment that didn’t have any separation between the living room and the kitchen, it was just one room, you know. Sometimes I didn’t have my own room, so I slept in this living 10 �room-kitchen thing. So they had separate bedrooms, they had a separate living room, they had a separate kitchen, a real one, so we said, “Wow,” you know. And His father worked for the FBI, of course later, I learned he was a clerk ’cause he wasn’t allowed to be anything else in those days. But the fact that he was an African American and was a clerk in the FBI was big for all of us and, of course, for the Black community. And the family was from the South. So we became very, very close [00:19:00] friends, and they would always invite me on vacations, Easter week, you know, stuff, full weeks, sometimes two weeks in the summer I think. I went down a lot, and the first time I went down, and I’ll never forget this, again, I’m in grammar school, about -JJ: What do you mean you went down in this --? LA: I went down with him to visit his family, you know, sort of on vacation, right? JJ: Okay. LA: And I’m going to Lexington, Virginia, to an all-Black community. There’s nobody white who lives in that part of Lexington, Virginia, so it’s an all-Black community. And it was wonderful, you know, nice house and nice hills around it and dogs, and we could really run around, and it was just natural. I mean I’m coming from brick and gray cement to a [00:20:00] very verdant place where people are just alive and connected, and it was such an exciting time. I loved [Jay?], and we were very tight. We were also very, very committed to science fiction, and we wanted to build a robot someday. I wanted to be a nuclear physicist, you know, [yeah, those?] craziness from watching science-fiction movies, right? JJ: Mm-hmm. 11 �LA: And there was one science-fiction movie that we missed, and I don’t know how because we were always on top of it, but somehow we -- I don’t know what happened. And I think it came from outer space or something like that, right? So we missed this, and we were like really jumping on each other’s back for whose fault it was not to be on top of it and who didn’t remind who. And we’re walking through town, through the main town, you know. Of course, the town is mostly white, right? And there it is, [00:21:00] the movie theater on Main Street, and there was the movie. And I go to Jay, “Jay, there it is, oh my God, and we’ve got money, we can do this, we can go” because we were going to the movies, right? and he said, “No, we can’t go.” I said, “What are you talking about? And your grandmother says it’s okay, we have the money to go to the movies, this is what we’re doing. Why can’t we go see this movie? This is the movie that we’ve been screaming about not seeing.” He says, “We can’t go in there.” I said, “What do you mean we can’t go in there? Look, come on, let’s do it.” He said, “No, we can’t go in there, talk to my grandmother, I can’t talk to you about this.” I said, “What are you talking about?” “I can’t talk to you about it, talk to my grandmother.” I says, “Oh.” I thought maybe it was polio or some disease, that’s how I thought, oh, it’s some kind of disease in there, somebody got it, and so he’s forbidden to go into the theater, and I get that, you know? [00:22:00] So that night, so we wound up going to, what, I think was called the National State Theatre to see The Lone Ranger. I’ll never forget that movie because I was so upset. I mean I like The Lone Ranger, but I was so upset that we didn’t see a science-fiction movie. So his grandmother was just one of the most loveliest, 12 �loving, caring woman I’ve ever met; she just exuded love. And I remember asking her, “[Mrs. C?], you know, we went to the movies today.” She says, “I know child.” I said, “Well, Jay and I love science-fiction movies, and we watch every one of them, and we saw this movie that we missed in New York. And I wanted to go and, and I don’t understand why we couldn’t go. And he said that we couldn’t go into theater, and he told me to talk to you about it. So what happened, somebody died there or something?” [00:23:00] She said, “Son, there’s a lot of good people in this world, a lot of good people, and they’re all different kinds of colors. But there are some bad people too, and a lot of them don’t like Black people, people of our color. And they’re not well, but they really don’t like us, and they don’t allow us to be with them. And so there are certain places that we can’t go, and so we have to be very, very careful here. It’s not like in New York City, you have to be very careful how you treat these people and that you know the places you can go and you can’t go.” And she looked at me, and I’m looking at her in disbelief. I didn’t know at that moment what I felt. I felt hurt, really hurt, [00:24:00] really, I almost wanted to cry. I felt anger, uncontrollable anger, a rage inside of me. I can remember almost trembling, but here, this woman who I loved was telling me this, so it had to be true, but in the United States of America? And this is happening, and there’s nothing we can do about it? JJ: Now what year was this? LA: I graduated from St. James Elementary School in 1958, so this had to be in the 1956 or 1957. You know, I don’t think it was my last year, it was not, it wasn’t my 13 �last year. So I was either 11 or 12, maybe around 11, and I’ll never forget that, I will never forget that. JJ: Why, did you feel it was you too, did you identify with him or --? LA: Oh, yeah, [00:25:00] I mean look at me. I was very clear from the very beginning that I wasn’t white, you know, and my father is a Black Dominican, although his niece, my first cousin would say he’s Indio. (laughter) F1: Right. LA: Oh my God, anyway, but, you know, he was a Black Dominican, and of course, so... My grandmother, who was the first woman who really, I remember as -after being born, besides my mom, obviously, and my dad, who took care of me, because my father sent for his mother to take care of me. And so that my fondest moments of being loved and cared for were by a Black woman. Of course, my first cousin said she’s Indio but -- and she’s got Indian features but she’s Black. She’s got Indian features, I give [00:26:00] her that much. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible), yeah. LA: So she’s probably mixed there, right? JJ: (Spanish) [00:26:03], her name? LA: Well, you know, my -- JJ: Your grandma, your grandma. LA: -- yeah, my father’s name is Garden okay, so, and her name, you know, was [Abuela?]. You know, we’re the only Garden family in the Dominican Republic. It’s quite interesting because now, there’s been a resurgence of connections through the internet. So we’re finding actual cousins as a history on the Garden 14 �side of real political involvement. I remember when -- you know, and this is going a little aside now on the Dominican side but -JJ: That’s all right. LA: You know, one day, my sister and I were watching Roots, but maybe for the third time and – which just happened to be on TV. And it was [00:27:00] pre-VCR days and stuff like that, so, you know, you watched whatever was on, right? And so we’re watching this and then as a joke I said to my sister, “You know, maybe we should find our own Kunta Kinte and our own because we don’t have any connection to our Dominican side.” When my father died, I had one aunt here, and she was very mysterious about... And I love this aunt, and she was loving to me in every way, and I love goin’ to see her, and we were very bonded, right, but she would not tell me anything about the family. For some reason, it was all a mystery, and my sister and I couldn’t figure it out, but we just had no contact. So my sister said, “Yeah, we should, we should figure it out, we should find them somehow.” I said, “Yeah, well, let’s try looking up people in the phone book and see what happens, is there another Garden?” So she did, and she called that person because it was [00:28:00] pre-internet days, right. And that person turns out to be my first cousin, and they had known about us. I think it was... I mean it’s definitely after I was in the seminary, so they had known that I went to the seminary, that I was gonna be a priest. They knew a lot of stuff about me and about Linda, but they didn’t know how to contact us. And so we made the contacts, and we connected, and it was terrific. And then we finally went to Santo Domingo, went to Dominican Republic with my mother. My mother was 15 �able to see her husband’s family for the first time aside from my cousin who came and stayed with us and my grandmother. So it was a marvelous time for my mom and for my sister and I, and it was like, you know, going back to Africa in a way. It was like, you know, being a descendant of [00:29:00] Kunta Kinte and coming back to the Rio, whatever that river was. And they picked us up in the airport, and they said, “Okay, before we take you to the house, we wanna take you somewhere, so you know who you are.” They took us to (Spanish) [00:29:15], and there, of course, are the remains of the people who led the independence struggle and the remains of my great-great-grandfather’s nephew who wrote the national anthem. JJ: Of Santo Domingo? LA: Emilio Prud’Homme, yeah. JJ: Okay. LA: And -- JJ: What was his name again? I didn’t get it. LA: Emilio Prud’Homme, and he, you know, was a big figure in Dominican history, and of course, I had no knowledge of this. I didn’t know that. There’s a letter behind you right there to my father, from his brother from the [00:30:00] -- I guess the White House of the state of Puerto Plata, from the palace, acknowledging my father’s letter and telling him that he was fine and all kinds of things. Well, that’s my uncle, and he was president of the region of Puerto Plata five times in a row, so he was literally there forever, you know. But I didn’t know this, so it was an interesting part, you know. So people would say, “Well, this is why you were a 16 �Young Lord, this is the Dominican side of you.” (laughter) I said, “Oh, really?” So I think it was the Puerto Rican side. (laughter) But it was interesting ’cause a lot of my Puerto Rican family is, kind of, mellow, you know, so... But on the other hand, I’ll never forget the day that I think we had some kind of meeting or something at the Lords, and I came home, and usually... [00:31:00] It must have been early on in my life as a Young Lord because I remember that I would always take the beret off and would not wear it in the trains, would not give the police an excuse to attack me, so... I guess I didn’t this time, and I walked in Fort Greene Projects, you know, into my mother’s apartment, into our home, with the beret on, and my mother saw the beret, and she went crazy. (Spanish) [00:31:34] I mean, classic, classic, (Spanish) [00:31:38] Puerto Rican style, started screaming. My mother’s not that kind of a person. She’s a very religious woman, right, strong, but she wasn’t into screaming and going crazy, you know? Well, she went nuts. She really started screaming and screaming and crying and “No, this can’t be, this can’t be,” and I’m going, “What’s goin’ on [00:32:00] here?” She just looked at me, and this happened. So, my aunt was there, thank God, and, you know, she’s my favorite aunt on my Puerto Rican side and the person I was closest to in the family. And she went to see that my mother’s okay in the bedroom, and my mother’s crying, I could hear her crying, you know. And so, she comes out after a while, you can imagine how I was, I said, “What’s going on here?” And she said, “(Spanish) [00:32:31] you don’t know anything, right?” I said, “No, what, what is there to know?” She says, “You never heard the story?” “No.” “Well, we weren’t supposed to tell you, so I can understand. Your mother 17 �would tell us everybody, they could never mention this to you. We can never talk about it, so it’s the big secret in the family.” I said, “What secret?” She says, “Well, [00:33:00] how your mother came to this country?” and I go, “Well, what’s it -- how she came, how you came?” She says, “No, no, no, no, no, your mother came before us.” I said, “Well,” she says, “Well, the reason why she came was because the family, seeing that she was dying, that she would need -- that she was very depressed, that she was losing so much weight. (Spanish) [00:33:25] It took a year or so to raise enough money to be able to buy a ticket for her on a boat and send her up to the family here.” I said, “Why, what happened?” She says, “Because the man that she loved, the man that she was to be married, a week before her marriage on Palm Sunday was killed along with other people in Ponce.” I said, “The Ponce massacre?” I had heard about it, of course, you know, as a Young lord, I knew about it, [00:34:00] but I didn’t know that I had such a personal relationship to it. And she said, “Yes, he was one of the 22, and in fact, you know, he took blood, his own blood, and he wrote on the sidewalk, “(Spanish) [00:34:25].” I said, “Really?” “And you really can’t mention this to your mom, we’ve gotta calm her down, but after this, do not say a word. Never mention this because she could get very sick.” I said, “Okay.” You know, I remember growing up, and I remember because my father, particularly when he was alive that -- which I can remember, we had... You know, my father was a very generous guy, a hardworking, typical, working-class guy [00:35:00] who understood what hunger was, he went through that in his own life. So when cousins would come, you know, in the late ’40s and ’50s, right, come into Puerto 18 �Rico as part of the whole wave. People would get there, he’d always have the house available on Sundays for food and the entire family, so many people came over, and that’s how I got to know my whole family. And every Sunday, that’s what it was. And I remember once that somebody said, “Albizu Campos.” Now, you know, if you’re growing up in Brooklyn and somebody says Albizu Campos, that doesn’t sound like the name of a human being. It’s not like, you know, [Maria?] or [Luis?] or something, you know, you didn’t... So Albizu Campos, [00:35:49] and you think it’s one word, you don’t what it is. Albizu Campos (inaudible). So my mother, being the religious person that she is, I thought it was some kind of curse word like [00:36:00] (Spanish) [00:36:01] or something, another one I could never understand, and so... But I know that when somebody said that, my mom [says?], “Well, we don’t speak that way here.” So that’s what she did, she said, “We don’t speak about that here,” so okay, must be some kind of bad language. I never thought about it until of course that day, and all the pieces began to fit. I began to realize what was going on here was my mom, when my father died, how she went into deep depression, again, real deep depression, and that that was really just a recurrence of her first love. You know, she was at her friend’s house who made dresses and was making her wedding dress. My aunt told me, that [Beying?] [00:37:00], her pretendiente, her fiancé, dropped her off, and she had a premonition, my mom did. And she said, “What, where are you going?” He said, “Well, you know, we’re gonna have a march because of what happened, we have to come out.” And she said, “Oh, no, no, no, I heard there’s gonna be trouble” because in Ponce in those times, you know, 19 �people were talking about it and how bad the police were behaving. And, of course, some police officers got shot, and there was a big problem, and that they were looking for revenge, and that the governor and all that were behind them. So she said to him, “Look, you have to be careful because this is not good. I mean, what’s happening here?” He said, “Oh, don’t worry about it, it’s a Palm Sunday march, it’s kids, families, I mean, you know, it’s peaceful. We’re not gonna create any trouble, but we want to take a stand.” And he says, “You know, I’d rather die with my boots on than cower. [00:38:00] It’s time for us to be who we are as Puerto Rico, to be independent, to get rid of these Yankees, so I’m gonna take a stand, I’m gonna be a part of it. It’s gonna be peaceful, but we’re gonna stand up as men,” you know? She made that point. So he was killed. When my mother saw me, it was like coming full circle, full circle in life, and then she saw me dead, that’s what she saw. That’s why she responded the way she did because she thought, here goes the love of my life at this moment, the only one left, and they’re gonna kill him too. JJ: You mentioned the seminary, how did you get into that, the --? LA: Well, you know, let me have a little cafe. JJ: Oh. LA: My drug of choice here. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) here you go. LA: You know, [00:39:00] when you go to Catholic school, you realize that you have great heroes around you. Of course, the nuns were amazing. And also, you have to understand that it was the ’50s and the early ’60s, right, so there was no 20 �Peace Corps, there was no war on poverty. I never saw a social worker, I never saw a Puerto Rican doctor, a Puerto Rican priest, a Puerto Rican anything, right? And no real models around which to channel what was now becoming a real deep-seated feeling about injustice and about what had to be done in the world. So I began to think that perhaps God was calling me to the [00:40:00] priesthood, that God was calling me to do something special. I had dreams about it, you know, typical stuff, stressed out, and thinking about it. And so I began to think that, yeah, this is what I have to do because this is the one way, the only way that I thought I could make a difference. That I could really contribute just to try to begin to end the horrors that I had seen. And I remember a priest, a missionary priest, from the Congregation of the most Holy Redeemer known as Redemptorist. They’re the ones who created Santa Maria Reina in Puerto Rico, the Catholic university church there. I mean, they had a part in it, but they ran the church. And they had missions in Paraguay and Santo Domingo and really all over that Latin [00:41:00] -- all over the world really. The Redemptorist is the third largest order at the time behind the Jesuits and Franciscans. So he talked about, you know, the work that he was doing in Latin America and Paraguay. He talked about the hunger and the poverty, and he talked about his order as going to the most abandoned. I mean, I understood that immediately as the most oppressed, and so I was really moved by [Father Mike Travis?]. I was serving his mass, I was his altar boy, and he was visiting our church, but I was really moved by that, and so that was one, sort of, major moment in my life. But the one that really got me thinking about it and that I really wanted to model my life 21 �after was that man there, Monsignor John Powis. I met [00:42:00] him as a seminarian, he wasn’t [even?] a priest. He was one of these white seminarians, little Father Powis. I mean, he’s so much a part of us that people swear he’s everything but white, you know, I mean, really and... But then he was somebody from outside Fort Greene Projects coming into Fort Greene Projects to just hang with us, connect with us, part of a group of people who worked under the mentorship of a wonderful Catholic nun. She belonged to the Trinitarian Order, and her sister name was Sister Thomas Marie, but who she was really, her secular name, if you will, was Isolina Ferré. In fact, she went back to that name even as a nun when things, you know, opened up after [00:43:00] Vatican II. And Isolina Ferré is the sister of the governor, Ferré, the modern leader of the statehood movement in Puerto Rico, a very decent, honorable man, by the way. There’s another story I could tell about meeting him, but she was wonderful. And Father Powis, then John Powis, the seminarian, right, was, sort of, her mentee. These group of seminarians worked with the Trinitarian nuns to learn from them and to extend their work in the projects. So I was part of it as a kid, I was like 12, I was just either graduating or about to graduate from St. James, yeah, about to graduate when I met him. I guess I was in the eighth grade. Then [00:44:00] when I did graduate, he was ordained and his first assignment was my parish, St. James. Why? Because he was a pianist. I didn’t know that, nobody knew that, and we had the home of the Brooklyn (inaudible) and Choristers. The pastor of the church, Father Toomey, was the leader of the Brooklyn (inaudible) and Choristers, and they were very famous. They went all over the place singing, 22 �beautiful and fantastic voices. And so Father Toomey requested an aide, an assistant, who could lead the choristers, and so he was a concert pianist, done. So that’s why he came to St. James, right, but little did Father Toomey know that he was not interested in that. What he was interested in is me and young people like me and in the projects and in connecting [00:45:00] and really serving and working with the poor. So that became rather apparent quickly on, and of course, they went into a struggle for all the time that they were there, right? But I admired Father Powis for that; I admired for how he stood up to the pastor and how he wanted to really perform the corporal works of mercy. How he was about feeding the hungry and giving drink to the thirsty and clothing the naked, how he was about being a Christian. And it was the first time that I had really seen a priest that actually, actually lived what Christ was talking about in the Gospel to the extent that he would -- I mean, a big complaint about Father Powis is if you saw him without a coat, and somehow you gave him a coat. Well, you know, you might have given that coat in the morning, but by the afternoon, he’d given it to somebody else. I don’t think he owned a coat half the time. He used to walk with holes in his shoes. We saw him, we said, “Oh my God, he’s got [00:46:00] cardboard,” just like we did, and I mean it was the same. And it wasn’t that he was trying to be like us or he’s romanticizing poverty in any way. It was just that he always felt somebody else needed something more and that he could do without. That he could live a life of doing without if that would help somebody else. And so I was inspired by him, and of course, my father had died, so he became my father, and I wanted to be like him. So that consolidated the idea 23 �totally in my mind, I wanna be a Catholic priest like Father Powis. Now, he belonged to the diocese, so he was just, what we called, a secular priest. In other words, he was part of the diocese. He became ordained by that bishop and he worked there. But Father Mike Travis was a missionary, and a missionary that went to the most oppressed. At that point, I didn’t think I was the most oppressed because, you know, I thought that, well, I eat three times a day, I’ve got [00:47:00] a roof over my head. We’re very, very poor, but, hey, look at these people in Paraguay or look at these people in China, look at these people in Africa. I’m rich compared to them, right? So I wanted to, of course, cast my lot with those who are the most abandoned. I’ve never asked about Father Powis what he thought about my decision; he’s very good about it. He said, “Well, this is great, wonderful,” the whole thing, very supportive all the way. But I guess he had to wonder why I would choose an order that wasn’t his, but... Because he was the one all through the seminary that I would go to. In fact, he went -- you know, it was a 12-hour trip to get to St. Mary’s Seminary in North East, Pennsylvania, right next to Lake Erie, and he made that trip at a time when I really needed him, so... I suppose I became a Young Lord because of how the welfare department treated my mom and my neighbor, and [00:48:00] because I wanted to be like Father Powis, and because I really wanted to heed what the Gospel talked about, about really being there for your neighbor. And that I saw so much suffering going on, especially in the Puerto Rican community where we had so little that when I heard... At that point, let’s say when I returned from the seminary, I wanted to see how I could express my priesthood in a more worldly 24 �way, and let me explain that. I remember once, they went into a whole new grading system in the seminary around conduct and application. Now, they were very strict. [00:49:00] I mean, if you really messed up, you packed your bags that night, and I saw that, you know. On the other hand, there were always little things that people do, but maybe they shouldn’t have done, minor things, right. So they had a system for basically telling you what your grade was in application, what your attitude was in applying yourself, and in your conduct. So they went to a system of numbers. So the priest said, “Now, no one’s ever gonna get 100 in conduct and application because that would mean that you’re perfect, and none of us are perfect, so... But we expect, oh, everybody get 95, you know, 90.” So I said, “Okay.” We all said, “All right, we’re [going to get?] 95,” or whatever it is, you know and... But there were two people in the seminary that I [00:50:00] knew of, at least in terms of when I was there, that got 100, 100. It was Tom Curley, amazing, amazing man, who became a priest, who was the one person that I met in my life who really loved knowledge. I mean, of course, I met wonderful priests and great academicians at Harvard and people like that who were very, very much committed to understanding the world and to really acquire knowledge, but he had a love affair with it. I mean he loved reading the encyclopedia. I think we saw him read it like three times or something, the whole thing, the Britannica, and we, “Hey, Tom,” said, “so what letter are you up to today?” that kind of thing, you know. He just loved learning. Everything was just beautiful for him. Whatever we were learning, Greek, whatever it was, he embraced it. [00:51:00] He was a very humble guy, extremely humble. You 25 �know, somewhat, off in his own world half the time, but really, because he was so kind and so generous and so humble, you know, “Hey, Tom, come on out.” ’Cause he couldn’t do sports, he couldn’t do any of that, so “Oh, it’s all right, oh yeah, okay, you can’t catch that one, okay, no problem, Tom,” that kind of thing, we just loved him. So he got 100 and 100, and I got 100 and 100. Now, I wasn’t Tom Curley, and I wasn’t certainly the best, but I was good at watching my back, you know. But, I mean, certainly, I’d never go for the 100 and 100, but I got it anyway. So, I only say that because I was really committed, very committed to becoming a Redemptorist priest, I wanted to. I had a very strong desire to embrace medicine. [00:52:00] I was thinking maybe they could send me to medical school, have some conversations about them. Of course, they weren’t teaching me any science, you know, other than the required physics course, which was not much, a general science course at best, but I was trying to learn as much as I could on my own. And I was definitely focused on healing, so I was thinking and hoping that they would send me to medical school, so I could be a priest-doctor. But after a while in the monastery -- and let me just explain the monastery. The monastery, so you graduate from St. Mary’s Seminary, which is a high school and a junior college, and then you take a break for all academic studies, and you go into this monastic existence for one year. You have no contact with the outside world, no contact with your family, no letters, nothing, no TV. I mean, with a couple of [00:53:00] exceptions; I’ll get into that. But literally, you are to spend the time of prayer, meditation, of learning the ways of the order, and of getting ready to take vows. Because then you take these vows and then 26 �you go on to the house of philosophy and the house of theology and then you get ordained. Come back for another year in the monastery and then go out as a priest. So, you know, all total, it’s 12 years to ordination and another year, 13th, yes. So you can say that I had finished the first six years, although I didn’t start in the seminary as a freshman. I started in high school here, the Catholic high school here, so... JJ: You were in the seminary, were you in high school you say? LA: High school and college, junior college, right. And so, [00:54:00] in the seminary -- no, in the monastery, there was only my class, so I don’t know how many we were, about 22. It wasn’t a whole lot of young people, right, and we were all, what, 17, 18, 19 but so young. And of course, the priests that were there were all there for us. Some were retired, but for the most part, they were there for us, and they were there to support us in our journey. But as I walked in every day to this big dining hall, which we call the refectory. Before you went into the main doors, through the main doors, you would see -- I remember on the right-hand side as you walked in -- a map of the world. And you would see, of course, enlarged the United States, and underneath the United States, there would be a legend explaining the different marks on the map that would relate to how many [00:55:00] schools the Redemptorist were working in, how many schools they had, how many churches they had, and then the United States was divided north and south. So if you look down in the south, there was the furthest subdivision, and that was in terms of color, how many schools white, how many schools Black, how many churches white, how many churches Black. And I looked at 27 �that. Now, you know the rage that I felt at realizing there was such a thing as segregation and afterwards the racism and the white supremacy, that that really was behind that. So I would look at that every day, and I’m going, huh, what is that? And then finally, I said to my classmates, “What is that white and Black stuff?” and they said, “Oh well, that’s the South.” I said, “What are you talking about?” “Well, we have white churches and we have Black churches.” [00:56:00] “Wait a minute, you have white churches and you have Black churches? So you mean if a Black person goes into church, you’re not gonna let them go into church?” “No, no, we let ‘em go in.” “So what’s the problem?” “Well, they have to be in the back.” I said, “What do you mean you have to be?” “Well, they can’t be up front.” “So you don’t let them go to communion?” “Oh, we let them go to communion, but they have to wait for all the white people to have their communion first, then they can go out for communion.” I said, “Are you really telling me this is what you do?” They said, “Yeah, look, this is -- Luis, you don’t understand, you’re from New York City, this is the South.” And the people I was talking to were from the South, said, “So, it’s a different culture there, we have to deal with the reality of the South. You know, you have a different life in the North, I know that, but in the South, that’s the way it has been, and it will always be that way. So we have to conform, or we can’t be there.” I said, “Are you guys crazy? I mean, are you really [00:57:00] -- are you listening to what you’re saying?” They said, “Luis, come on, calm down, this is like you’re [Atoms for Peace?].” They used to call me [Atoms for Peace?] stuff. Because they were supportive of nuclear war, and I’m going, “Are you guys nuts?” I mean, really, you 28 �know. So like three things that I wound up saying, you people are insane, the whole issue of racism and the support of it, the question of, you know, nuclear annihilation, and the support of their so-called just war. And I’m going, “There cannot be a just war if you have nuclear bombs, it’s impossible,” and they didn’t want to accept that. And of course early on, I said, “It was insane to have our services, our masses in Latin because nobody understands what’s going on, and what is the point?” And it seems so logical to me, and they said, “Oh well, yeah, sure, but that’ll never or it might change maybe a thousand years from now, you know how slow the Catholic church changes.” And I’m going, [00:58:00] “It’s gotta change now, and we’re gonna be priests, we’ve gotta make it.” They said, “No, you can’t do that because you’ll defy the Pope.” Like, “Give me all kinds of reasons why you could not use your common sense.” So I love them now; these are my brothers. You know, I understand when marines say, “They’re my brothers” because you do bond, and I did bond with them, and they were very much my family. But I remember the day that I told the novice master that I just felt that I had to leave, and he tried to talk me out of it of course. They had been thinking about me as being a bishop someday in Latin America, and they had great hopes. And spoke to the provincial, the provincial wanted to see me, you know, it wasn’t the easiest thing to do. And it wasn’t the easiest thing for me because I loved my fellow classmates; I mean, we were a family. [00:59:00] JJ: And you also did it also because of social justice in terms of --? LA: I did it solely because of that. Look, I went on with this a long, long time in my mind. I just could not leave because I could not leave my family. But what 29 �finished it for me and the reason I had the nerve and the courage to be able to talk to the novice master about it, which meant that I was making a decision, finally, was because one day, we were allowed to see a television program there. We had been allowed to see one other television program before. It was a debate between a Protestant and a Catholic priest, Protestant minister, about something related to ecumenical sort of approach, and it was great. I remember that, because at that point, it was on TV, it exciting, [01:00:00] whatever it was because we [didn’t?] see TV. The master had to leave for some meeting or something, and so the junior guy, who had just been ordained and assigned there, right, who was a Republican -- I’ll never forget this -- pro-Goldwater type said, “Well, you know, novice master is away today, and I’m in charge. And something’s very important happening, and I think you guys should see it.” So we went upstairs to the TV room, and I’m going, “Wow, this must be a very heavy debate between the Catholic and Protestant for them to want us to see it.” I’m going, “But anyway, hey, we’re gonna watch TV, so that’s good,” so... And he puts the TV on, and at that moment, Martin Luther King comes out to the microphone and says, “I have a dream.” I mean, imagine you don’t see TV at all, you don’t know what’s going on, you don’t read newspapers, you don’t know anything that’s going on. And what you see for the first time is Martin Luther King [01:01:00] say the I Have a Dream speech, the famous speech. And for me, it was like God was talking to me because here I was. I didn’t tell anybody that I wanted to leave, and I didn’t tell them why. Because in my heart I felt, you know, if I stay in the order, I’m just gonna be a rabble-rouser because I’m not, not ever 30 �going to accept the division between white and Black, never gonna happen. I’m either gonna get thrown out, and I also was supposed to be such a model student, I mean, it will be a horror. And so I thought God was talking to me, and I said, okay, that’s it, that’s it, and then I went to the novice master and eventually left. But I left hoping to think maybe to become more like Father Powis, but the war in Vietnam was just starting, people did not even know about it at the time, [01:02:00] but I was very concerned. And of course ex-seminarians usually wind up in Brooklyn in St. Francis College, and that’s where I wound up because that’s -- you have to go somewhere. You’re like a fish out of water; the world seems very strange. JJ: What is St. Francis College? LA: St. Francis College is a Catholic college in Brooklyn. JJ: They take -- seminarians [go there?] --? LA: Ex-seminarians go, I mean everybody goes there, but in those days when there were seminarians, and a lot of seminarians coming out, they usually went to St. Francis first, and that’s where they would move to. So I was told, “Go to St. Francis;” I said, “Okay, I’ll go to St. Francis.” Now think about it, St. Francis, the peacemaker, his famous peace prayer, well, that wasn’t the case at St. Francis. In fact, a friend of mine and I went to this rally that St. Francis was holding down the block right there in front of the [01:03:00] Borough Hall, and it was a rally to bomb Hanoi. It was the early days of Vietnam War, and it was a conservativesupported thing that we should go in with greater troops, and the whole thing just, you know, wiped the world of Vietnam, and it was horrifying. It was horrifying 31 �because a brother actually said the prayer first, you know, and that’s how the rally started, and it was well attended. And my friend and I, we were just, like, totally blown away because we were pacifists both of us, we said, “Oh my God.” So, soon after I left, I said, “I can’t do this class.” Eventually, of course, I got more and more involved in the antiwar movement, and I went to every major march. The only march that I did not go to in Washington was the Pentagon march ’cause [01:04:00] I think that was during the week, I couldn’t do it but ev-JJ: What years were these? LA: This was 1967 --’66, ’67, ’68, those late ’60s. JJ: Were you part of any group or you just went? LA: You know what, actually, there was two groups that I belonged to. One group was the tight-knit group. In ’67, I became a member of John Lindsay’s mayor’s office and the youngest one, and there’s a whole story behind that. But there was really some cool guys because what John Lindsay wanted to do was to recruit ex-civil rights and welfare rights people, and I was a welfare rights organizer. It was the first major organizing that I did. Or people thought it was impossible to organize welfare clients into a union, but we showed it was not only possible, but that we could create a City-Wide [01:05:00] Coordinating Committee of Welfare Groups and then a national organization, and we did all that. And then when the chairperson of the City-Wide Coordinating Committee of Welfare Groups, Frank Espada -- JJ: Oh, I know. 32 �LA: You know Frank? A very noted, wonderful militant organizer. Most people know him as a photographer, and he’s a great photographer. Of course, his work is now a part of the Smithsonian is the -- JJ: Who did an exhibit in Chicago -- LA: Right. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LA: The (inaudible) and Diaspora exhibit, which I hope someday will come -- JJ: The Hawaiian-Puerto Rican exhibit. LA: Exactly, exactly. So Frank, who was my compadre, my best man at my first marriage and who I was very, very close to and close to his family, and, man, I was there all the time practically. When he got [01:06:00] the job, eventually, he allowed me to volunteer, and eventually, he figured out a way to get me the job because I was very young. And my history just in terms of organizing was really welfare rights, but I was really into it, and I had learned a lot, and I had become a very good organizer. And Frank knew that, so he wanted me to organize the war on poverty, particularly here in this community in Williamsburg and other communities, but this would be my main community. So I did, and as part of that group, there was a bunch of us, like [Benny?] and others, that were really against the war in Vietnam earlier on. This is before people, kind of, put up to this, and we wanted to make sure that there was a Puerto Rican presence. The marches were mostly white, and we wanted to make sure that the world knew that Puerto Ricans were against the war. [01:07:00] In those early days, a lot of Puerto Ricans weren’t, unfortunately, because we all swallowed the anti-communist 33 �propaganda and that kind of thing. So it was difficult talking to even members of our families about this because they would feel that somehow, we were being cowards in not going to the army. Or they would ascribe all kinds of other issues to the real issue, which was that it was an immoral war and that we had to stand up against it, so... Not to mention the fact that we were pacifists, which is a whole other can of worms for some people. So anyway, so we decided we’d get the biggest Puerto Rican flag we could get, huge, right? And if you look with a magnifying glass at all those pictures, just look for the Puerto Rican flag, and I’ll be right underneath it. So I was very much in that whole, sort of, Catholic Social Action [01:08:00] effort also. So it was that plus Catholic Social Action circles that I was part of, the [Bergen?] Fathers, the Catholic Worker, Catholic Peace Fellowship. They helped me very much get my deferment, you know, because... JJ: So you marched with the Bergen? LA: Oh, yes, I was very much a part of because I was from the seminar, still feeling like, “Okay, I’m trying to express my priesthood, this is the way I’m gonna do it.” And so it’s no longer gonna be in a structured Catholic church, it’s gonna be Catholic Worker, it’s gonna be a soup kitchen, it’s gonna be this, it’s gonna be that, it’s gonna be the antiwar movement, you know. So, that’s where I was in 1969, in December, when I heard about this group of young people who were trying to get a church to perform the corporal works of mercy. I said, “Oh my God,” [01:09:00] and this is what had moved me all my life, right? So I hear that they were trying to create a breakfast program, they were trying to get a clothing drive going. They were trying to get a liberation school where young people 34 �would learn about their history. They were trying to help people in all sorts of ways. They were tryin’ to perform the corporal works of mercy, what Christ told us would be the criteria for acceptance into the kingdom of heaven. They were tryin’ to be Christians, and that for that, the police had come in and beat them up and bloodied an entire church. And that had just happened, and the word spread like -JJ: So the police came in and...? LA: The police. Because it was the First Spanish Methodist Church. Now, I’m a Catholic, so we have a different set of rules, but within the ceremony of the service of the Methodist Church, there is [01:10:00] a moment when one can speak up and pray out loud and talk to God about things that are happening, right? And so Felipe Luciano, who was the first chairperson of the Young Lords, had tried with other Young Lords to speak to the pastor of the church who was from Cuba. And so unfortunately, what he saw when he saw the berets was -well, he fled. So he saw Fidelistas, and he didn’t want anything to do it. So, of course, Felipe also has a Protestant background, and he had friends who went to that church, whose families went to that church, so explained the process to him. So he said, “Well, we’re gonna go to church, let’s go to church and let’s just plead our case directly.” So he got up and said who he was and said why they were there and what they were doing. And as soon as he did that, [01:11:00] the pastor gave a nod to a plainclothes police officer in the church. He went outside and brought in uniformed police officers, a whole bunch of them who started 35 �swinging their billy clubs at the Young Lords. They broke his arm, there was blood over the entire, entire church, it was horrible. And it was the first time -JJ: The entire -- LA: Felipe’s was blood and other Young Lords, yeah. And I am told it was the first time ever that the New York City Police Department ever entered a church during a ceremony and actually assaulted people. So that news went all around the world, and of course, you know, it basically got to everybody in New York City and Latinos talking about it, and I heard about it immediately. And then we were told that next Sunday there was gonna be a -- that people [01:12:00] are gonna go up there support what the Young Lords were doing. And so we went up there, and the Young Lords just had the church, and they basically talked, and it was wonderful. And I remember I was sitting next to Richie Perez who was his first time too. He was a teacher, and I liked Richie because Richie looked normal. (laughter) I mean, we all had long hair, but that was normal for us in those days. But, you know, he had a job, he was a teacher, he was real, he didn’t look as flamboyant as Pablo and Felipe. You know, they were really great guys and very charismatic and all that, but for me, it’s a little scary. Remember, I’m from the seminary, you know, and they’re talking about armed struggle and stuff like that, and I’m going, “Ooh, I don’t know if I can do that, [01:13:00] it’s not for me,” so... And Richie -- JJ: You’re a pacifist. LA: I’m a pacifist, right, but I agreed with them and everything that they were saying, and I was moved by them [hence?]. But I figured I have to get some kind of 36 �reading on this from a guy I can trust, so at some point, I turned to Richie. I said, “Richie, would you consider joining this?” ’Cause right there, I was there, I was there, I was so there by that time, right? Because what was missing in my life was, yeah, I had the Catholic Social Action Group, but it was mostly white, loved them, but it wasn’t my people. I had this small, little group at work, but we were singular, right? There wasn’t a group. I tried the Movimiento por Independencia, but I thought, you know, I can’t really hang with these people and my Spanish isn’t good enough. You know, I thought it was a Spanish issue, right? JJ: Mm-hmm. LA: Later I realized it was a class issue, right? JJ: Yeah. LA: But, [01:14:00] then it was like I’d be tongue tied, (Spanish) [01:14:02], et cetera., you know, so I really couldn’t hang with them. I liked them, especially since they were committed to independence and of course brought me into the culture, the music, the poetry, the cancion and all that. But they weren’t me, you know, and they didn’t really represent our experience, so I didn’t have a group. So when Felipe was talking and Pablo was talking and Juan Gonzalez, and I had met David before then -- JJ: David Perez. LA: -- David Perez, yeah, through a friend, and I trusted that friend. So I knew David was a good guy, a good working-class guy, a guy like me, like my family. I was really ready, but as I said, they were very charismatic and very forceful, and I was enraged as they were, but [01:15:00] I don’t know if I would use that 37 �language. And so when Richie said, well, he’s thinking about it, I said, “Well, okay, Richie, if you join, I join,” and we both joined together the same day. JJ: And then after you joined, what kind of actions were you involved in? Was there a demonstration --? LA: Wow, well, of course, the first thing was the people’s church. We’d be taking over the church and holding it, I think, for about 14 days, wasn’t it? JJ: Yeah, I went one day, I came from Chicago. LA: Yeah, you did? Yeah. JJ: Yeah. LA: Well, it must have been a very special day. JJ: Yeah. LA: So I had a child and -- JJ: And what’s your child’s name? LA: Arianne, [Arianna?], and Arianna was, you know, maybe -- yeah, she was born in 1968, so she was about a year old. And so that meant that I could not be there every single day or at least could only be there for a few hours [01:16:00] every day, right? So we all planned this, this takeover, and it was understood that, at some point, the police were going to come and arrest us. And so, you know, I -- JJ: Make sure you don’t say anything -- LA: I was given a dispensation for being there for that because obviously I had a daughter, so I missed that one and... But, you know, I was involved -- JJ: First, you guys took over the church and so -- 38 �LA: Yes, we took over the church, and eventually, after negotiations, et cetera, et cetera, we were arrested, you know. But we held it for a good long time. JJ: How many people were arrested? LA: Jeez, I don’t remember. JJ: But I mean a lot of -- LA: A lot of people, yeah, but – and it was in the middle of the night, basically, who did that kind of number. But we had, you know, for like -- was it 14 days? I can’t remember how many days it was. [01:17:00] For a good while there, every single day, we had so many different activities there. I mean, you could see what it was that we were talking about because it was all about -- JJ: What kind of activities were --? LA: Oh, everything from cultural activities to the actual practice of the activities we wanted to begin with, the practice programs, the liberation school, the clothing drives. All that stuff happened in those two weeks, and it was wonderful. Of course, every day, the headlines, you know, when is Lindsay going to act and, blah, blah, blah, all that stuff but we were doing all kind. Even at one point, we had a real religious service there with the bishop of Puerto Rico who came, remember? JJ: Right. LA: And the gospel was from the Red Book; he quoted Mao. I thought I’d died and gone to heaven; (laughter) It was amazing, so... So I remember those days; it was just very moving. [01:18:00] But I was involved in the health and education minister, so I was under the leadership of Juan Gonzalez, which was great, 39 �because Juan was amazing and still is a very close friend. And so I was involved in issues around TB testing and sickle cell anemia, and my focus was TB testing and in other areas like -JJ: And you guys -- LA: -- the clothing drive and stuff. JJ: -- someone to the team for it to -- LA: I’m sorry? JJ: Someone -- LA: Yeah, yeah, oh well, yeah -- JJ: -- during that time? LA: I wasn’t there for that, okay. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LA: But, yes. Well, they had this mobile TB, tuberculosis, truck where you could get an examination and an x-ray. And it was in some part of Manhattan that really where it was a middle-class community, people had access to health care. It really was in the wrong place, so they weren’t getting much business, right? So [01:19:00] very politely, we told them we’re taking over, and we told them where they had to go, and, of course, I think they were probably a little concerned, but there were many of us. So they moved to East Harlem, to the block where they really could get a lot of people, and people needed those services. At the end of the day when the reporters came and everything else came, and they asked people how did they feel about being kidnapped, and they said, “Well, no, we weren’t. In fact, you know, they were right, we were in the wrong place and they 40 �treated us very well, and we should be here.” I think early on, our reputation grew as the so-called “Polite Revolutionaries” in New York City. Unlike what the media had portrayed as the Black Panthers. I mean the Black Panthers were as polite as we were, but they got the bad press. We got a lot of favorable press because everything that we did, eventually, people say, “You know what, they were right, this is [01:20:00] what we should be doing.” We took over Lincoln Hospital, but it was after creating the Think Lincoln table where we would get complaints. And we would basically generate all these complaints and bring them to administration, “Look, this is stuff that you’ve gotta deal with, right?” Of course, they didn’t wanna deal with it, so we had to organize the nurses as part of -- some of them, of course, not all of them -- the Health Revolutionary Unity Movement, the HRUM. And together with them and other doctors and people who worked in the hospital, we took it over. Now, at the end of the day, people said, “Yeah, Lincoln Hospital should be closed, and no one should be opened, and the Young Lords were right,” so in almost every situation. I think only one situation that -- well two situations where I think -- and we ourselves felt [01:21:00] that we were wrong -- was when we took over the church again. I was in Boston by the time I -- [Josephina?] and I had opened up the branch in Boston. JJ: (inaudible), okay. LA: And I founded the branch in Massachusetts, and so I was there for most of -- a lot of this, right. And so what happened was that we took over the church again but with rifles. Now, I wouldn’t have been a part of that, you know. Now, it wasn’t that -- 41 �JJ: It was that time, it was that era. LA: Yeah, it was that era and... JJ: Today they call it Occupy but it was the same --? LA: It’s the same concept, yeah, the same concept. JJ: It was just that era that -- LA: Yeah, and, you know, we were very, very upset. We felt we had -- take a dramatic kind of action. Richie was telling me about it -- [01:22:00] JJ: I’m not saying it was wrong, I’m just saying of that era. LA: Richie was telling me about it, and I said, “Richie, come on, guns, come on.” And Richie just bowed his head and said, “Yeah, bro, I know but...” So Richie would never tell me it was wrong either, but I knew what he felt, and that’s why he became a wonderful brother to me. And I always considered him my mentor even though we’re the same age, but I would always go to him to think things out around politics particularly and our struggle, so... That was one that I think, you know, some people, rightfully so, would argue that that wasn’t the best day for the Young Lords. I think the other one was the takeover of the front of the Puerto Rican Day Parade. And, again, we were brought in from Boston, you know, I came with my guys and stuff, [01:23:00] and we were told that we had decided that we had enough of the Puerto Rican Parade being led by the New York City Police Department. That the people should lead the parade, and that what we were gonna to do was to jump the parade and be at the front. So that was the plan, and I’m going, “Richie, does this make sense?” It’s like I’m out from Boston, so I’m like just getting it, I’m not a part of the thinking process, I didn’t go 42 �through in this, and I’m going, “Why would we wanna do this?” I mean I remember going to the Puerto Rican. The early days of Puerto Rican Day Parade, you would just show up and walk the streets, that was it, and my mother did that, so... And so I remember as a young boy walking with my mother on Fifth Avenue, and it was wonderful, so I had fond memories of the Puerto Rican Day Parade. I do understand the politics and how it’s used [01:24:00] basically to aggrandize certain so-called political Puerto Rican leaders and how the politicians use it basically to pacify our community in some cases or win votes. And you know, it seemed like the police department, given the kind of assaults of our community that the police department had perpetrated, shouldn’t be the ones leading it, so it made sense in a way. But on the other hand, you know, taking the front of the parade was gonna be a dangerous kind of thing, and people might take it the wrong way, and it may not be something that we should be doing. And I told Richie that, and he said, “Bro, we thought about this, it’s important,” blah, blah, blah,” and I said, “Okay.” So the mistake was that we were not gonna wear for the first time our [01:25:00] berets or anything identifying us as Young Lords. The idea would be that we would go -- at some point when the parade nearing us, we were gonna jump out into the streets, disclose who we were because people followed us, they trusted us. Again, they marched with us 10,000 strong to the UN. I mean, everything that we did was huge, people -- and rightfully so. We were very good and very respectful at what we were doing all the time. And so that was the plan, except we hadn’t counted on the fact that we had people that had infiltrated Young Lords and knew about 43 �these plans, that the police department knew about these plans. And so all of a sudden, from out of nowhere, comes this big Puerto Rican flag. That goes on to the street, people start screaming and hollering, you know “Young Lords.” And then these people that looked like the so-called classic militants jump [01:26:00] out and tell people, “Come on, come on out to the street.” Now, the people knew that we were gonna take the front of the parade, right, so they go out into the streets. Now -JJ: So these were agent provocateurs. LA: Agent provocateurs, and I’ll tell you how I learned that because there was one guy particularly who was moving everything. Black, maybe African American, or Black Latino, I don’t know, but he had a beret on, and he had all kinds of medals. You know how we were told all the time, anybody who has a lot of buttons, you gotta worry about them, they’re probably an agent, right? So he had all that stuff on, and he was telling me, “Come on, we’re taking the front of the parade, we’re taking the front of the parade.” And then we’re going, “No, no, no, stay back,” but they wouldn’t listen to us because they didn’t know we were Young Lords. They thought that was the Young Lords. The flag was out there, people just jumped, the parade was nowhere near us, and the police were on the side streets, you know, totally armed to the hilt with all kinds of gear and trucks and everything. Just it was a setup [01:27:00] so that they could come in and mop the place up, literally, and arrest us all, clean the streets before the parade even got there, and that’s exactly what happened. A lot of people hurt, I saw a baby carriage go up in the air, I saw horrors that I had never seen before. I remember that people 44 �were screaming and trying to get into the lobbies of the buildings on Fifth Avenue, and the doorman would not let them in. And I remember that you can only do this when you’re so in the moment that you get this kind of strength. I remember that, I said, “Look, these people have to get in, there’s a mob of police officers swinging their police clubs, they’re gonna get hurt.” “Oh, we can’t let you in,” I said, “Yes, you are gonna let us in,” and I took one with one hand, and the other with the other hand. Now, come on, how strong [was I?]? Not that strong. I lifted them both and threw them. Now, I don’t know how I did that. [01:28:00] It’s impossible normally because I wasn’t that strong, just normal. I opened the doors and said, “Come on in,” and people went to the lobby. So when I had them secured, I went back out to see what else I could do. I saw the guy that started it all after the flag, the African or Black Latino dressed up as a so-called Young Lord. And I followed him because I wanna see who this guy was. And I followed him, followed him, followed him, and he was moving up back to the front of the parade. The parade by that time had passed by. Of course, a lot of people oblivious to what happened ’cause it was all in the press in the night and everything else, [the stories?]. But those people behind them had no hint that something like that had happened. People were bloodied and -(break in audio) M2: Yeah, that’s the only piece that’s missing because my project’s more specific to who you are now so -- LA: I think I was talkin’ more about today, right? M2: You talked about today and the [01:29:00] past were you -- you know? 45 �LA: Yeah, whatever, so you look at it and tell -- M2: That’ll be great. Yeah, I think that’s missing, so let’s -- LA: Okay, let’s -- we’ll do it. So... JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LA: Okay, yeah. (break in audio) JJ: [Really?]? LA: Really JJ: [Sued?]? LA: Yeah, I mean ’cause we sued. JJ: Now we were talkin’ about when we -- (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LA: I feel like so (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) yeah, he did, he did real time. (laughter) I got money for my time. F1: Your -- (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) JJ: Okay, now we were talking -- LA: So I’m watching this guy, and other people had also, when they saw what was happening, started walking up away from the police, right? JJ: Mm-hmm. LA: So all of a sudden, I see him jump to the other side of the street, and there, I see on the ground an elderly gentleman who just had a heart attack. He was one of those people. I guess all of the horror that he saw just got to him, and he had a heart attack and actually [01:30:00] died. And so he immediately goes to the -- 46 �he was the first one on the scene, and I’m right behind him. He doesn’t notice me, and he immediately, you know, checks for vital signs or anything else. I’m going, hmm, and then the police come, and then he takes out his badge. I said, “Son of a gun, you know, they just set it up totally.” So that’s how I knew that it was all a setup. JJ: This is gonna be the Puerto Rican -- LA: Puerto Rican Day Parade. JJ: -- Parade? LA: Yeah, so that was not a high point in our history. But the support -- JJ: So why wasn’t that a high point? I mean what do you --? LA: Because we didn’t understand fully the kind of (inaudible), the reporting that was going on, number one. Number two, because it just wasn’t the right thing to do, [01:31:00] with a sacred cow like the Puerto Rican Day Parade. You know, there are some things that are done incorrectly and are exploitative of our people, but our people believe in them. And so it’s not our place at that moment to contradict that, but to create a context for our people to understand what’s really going on. So I believe that we didn’t create that context for that Puerto Rican Day Parade. We just confronted it believing that we had the people on our side. And I guess if we had done it in a way like we used to do things, right, we might have been able to pull it off. JJ: What do you mean the way you used to do? LA: Well, I mean, the early days of the Young Lords. I wasn’t there, obviously, but the stories that I first heard when I got to the People’s Church. But this is in the 47 �summer of ’69, and the People’s Church was in December of ’69, right, on how [01:32:00] the Young Lord started. The Young Lords started basically as the Sociedad Albizu Campos, a bunch of college students from Stony Brook and Columbia, Juan and others who had gathered together mostly because of Mickey bringing people together, Mickey Melendez, and some kids who were not in college who had also somehow connected with them. And, you know, it, at first, was more of a study group of people tryin’ to figure out what to do. You know, they were, sort of, more of the classic Marxists who thought you had to read the 50 books of Lenin before you could even do anything, you know, and others who wanna do everything without even thinkin’ about it, so it was that mix. So finally, I guess as a compromise, they decided, well, here’s what we’re gonna do. We’re gonna go on a Saturday morning, and we’re gonna go and clean up the streets. The number one issue that people could obviously see was a major problem [01:33:00] was the garbage because garbage was piled up in our communities like a couple of stories high in some cases. The city had basically abandoned the kind of garbage pickup they had on Park Avenue. That wasn’t for us in the so-called ghetto. So we thought that if we could clean up the garbage, people would see that, and they would follow our lead, and before you know it, we had people engaged and we can begin to start demanding our rights. So we started doing that as the story goes, and people saw us, and they mocked us. They started saying, “What do you think, you guys the sanitation department now?” so they didn’t get it at all, you know? And so people went back to their clubhouse, you know, and said, “What was that about?” It’s like, we gotta change up that 48 �somehow. We thought, okay, the next time we do this, we’re gonna put the garbage in the middle of the street. [01:34:00] We’re gonna stop traffic, that’s gonna get people’s attention, and that’s gonna really demand that the city, in fact, change their policy, so we did that. Now, I think a couple of people knew what Felipe was gonna do. I’m not sure all the Lords knew at that moment, other than the central committee, what Felipe was gonna do. I’m not clear; I wasn’t there. But Felipe doused the garbage with, I guess, some flammable liquid and torched it. And then, as the flames sprang up, screamed at the top of his lungs, and you know Felipe can scream, he’s got an incredible voice, “(Spanish) [01:34:42]!” And everybody heard that, and people were opening up the windows and said, “What’s goin’ on here?” and he said, “The Young Lords!” And so we did that, all right, but we had like a van plan, we had an escape plan immediately. So immediately, we knew that we had to go into the stores, the bars, [01:35:00] the restaurants, we had to go in there immediately. Everybody had sneakers on because we could run fast, take our beret out, put it back in, look normal, and then come out as the people came out and said, “Whoa, you know, the Young Lords were at it again.” And this happened every weekend in the summer, to the point that by Friday night, there were helicopters over El Barrio looking for Young Lords to see where they were gonna strike next. We’d always do it, we’d always strike, we’d always do the same thing, and we’d meld into the masses and come out with everybody else, and nobody knew. Everybody assumed that Young Lords like, I don’t know, hundreds and hundreds of people, like the Black Panthers that stay out in the West Coast, but the reality was, it was a very small 49 �group of guys. Some women, definitely, Sonia Ivany and others, but mostly young people and a very small group at that. So, you know, that was [01:36:00] the kind of thinking that was going on in the Puerto Rican Day Parade, but as I said, the police department was one step ahead of us. JJ: Okay. You mentioned (inaudible). LA: Yeah. JJ: What was that, what was your involvement with --? LA: Well, I founded El Puente and then -- JJ: Oh (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LAC: -- El Puente -- and I founded El Puente in 1982 because -JJ: And El Puente is what, what is that? LA: Well, El Puente means “the bridge” in Spanish. And I thought that given what was happening in our community, that we needed a more mass-based place to convene our people to stand up for our human rights. It couldn’t be a political party. It had to be a place that was open to everybody and that was safe [01:37:00] and -- JJ: So mass-based -- LA: -- welcoming. JJ: -- meaning everybody, open to the community? LA: Welcome to the community with certain principles, of course, but not so ideologically determined that it would basically chase people away even before they got to know and engage in El Puente. And particularly focus on young people, why? Because 12 months before I opened up El Puente. In a period 50 �from 1979 to 1980 -- I opened up El Puente up in 1982 -- we had lost 48 young people in a section of Williamsburg. Some 30,000 to 32,000 people, one square mile called the Southside, Los Sures, very famous. This was El Barrio, the most -- the community with the census tract [01:38:00] in all of New York State with the highest concentration of Latinos. It was also part of the second poorest congressional district. It was the poorest community in the city, in the state, the poorest Latino community, so... And it was also obviously the most violent because we lost 48 young people in that one square mile, virtually one every single week through gang violence. We were, as the mass media defined, as the teenage gang capital of New York City. And everybody had a show on us, Geraldo, Donahue, all the different stations talked about the Southside and the killings in the Southside, and our own community was very much afraid to walk the streets. JJ: Was this before it got gentrified or--? LA: Oh, nobody wanted to come to the Southside. This was the most concentrated Latino community, mostly Puerto Rican. Nobody wanted to come, and virtually everybody was [01:39:00] Latino, and of course, nobody ever thought that anybody would ever wanna come and live here. You know, people at any moment, if they could get away, got away. I had founded El Puente, it was the process of it, and basically realized that if I was going to be able to build a base in this community, I had to live here, and so... And the other people who worked at El Puente who volunteered, because we were all volunteers at the time, also had to live here. So I would not allow people to be working with us or volunteer 51 �with us who did not live here, so I bought my own house here. Now, my mortgage was 200 dollars a month; it was virtually nothing. I didn’t have a credit card, so I borrowed some money from a friend for the closing cost and basically got [01:40:00] the house for nothing. And that’s the way it was because people -and even the woman who sold to me, I told her, “Listen, things are gonna change, if you want, I’ll just rent here if you have second thoughts about giving up the house,” she said, “Oh no, no, I’ve been dying for this and I’m so glad you came along and I know you mean well, but nothing’s gonna change.” And I told her, I said, “You know --” but she insisted, she was so happy to leave, so, and for good reason. I came home one night, there was a dead body that shoot up, and just before I arrived, the police were just arriving right. One week, I remember the very famous week that I had guns pointed at me by both the police and some gang kids, so in two different incidences. So it was a very difficult place, so we knew that we had to create a space that was a neutral zone in terms of the gangs. [I had to?] get agreement where [01:41:00] their younger siblings could come, and they would be safe, and that’s how we began. But when they got here, I would explain to them that this was about a movement and that what we wanted -- yes, we wanted them to learn how to do breakdancing and all the different other activities I would get volunteers to do, and then eventually, I got some money and actually could pay people. But the whole point was to promote peace and justice, and that we had to be those people to stand up for our communities to stop the injustice that was going on. So out of this came the Toxic Avengers of El Puente, the first Latino environmental group in the city, 52 �[Mash?] Ministry, a health group, all kinds of groups. The El Puente Dance Ensemble was, recall, celebrated, throughout the state and region, reviewed by the New York Times and a very professional group. In fact, there were only two groups allowed to perform at the United Nations [01:42:00] children’s summit before 75 heads of state, ambassadors, and wives -- (coughs) JJ: You want some water? LA: Yeah, I could (inaudible). And it was El Puente and another group called [Sounds of Nature?], a very good group, but we were the only two groups, so that gives you a sense of the quality of the El Puente Dance Ensemble. Of course, [Dator?] El Puente was the first adolescent-aged trauma group in the country, started in 1987, still going strong. So the many, many groups that have come out of El Puente have been about peace and justice. And I got this from both my Catholic Social Action and, in particular, the Young Christian Worker movement. (Spanish) [01:42:57] gave rise to liberation theology [01:43:00] in Latin America and union struggles, and we were part of it here, in our church here in Transfiguration Church. And that’s where I met what would be eventually the cofounders of El Puente, people I went to, “Listen, let’s do this,” and who said, “Yeah, we’re down with you.” And like Frances, who’s the executive director today, she was the first one to -- she had started the Williamsburg Arts & Culture Council for Youth, so she was doing dance classes. She was a professional dancer who was home healing from an accident and, in the meantime, actually teaching young people about modern dance. Thought she was gonna go back to it. And her brother, who was a fine artist, and taught -- 53 �JJ: Who’s her brother? LA: Frank Lucerna, yeah, it’s either the Frances or Frank, kind of runs in the family, you know, is the way I -- you know, so... [01:44:00] And Gino Maldonado, who was one of the four incorporators, along with me and Father Steve and Judy Agostini in terms of state charter, who’s been with El Puente from day one and now is the chief of operations after 30 years of doing this. So it was a coming together of the Young Christian Worker movement and the Young Lords in a way that could be very appealing to everybody. We call them the 12 principles. Four cornerstones of those 12 principles are holism. That our approach was not gonna be categorical in terms of one part of the human person or the other, but that we were gonna relate to each other as whole human beings. [01:45:00] A very novel notion in 1982, by the way, holism. When I would speak of holism, people thought I was talking about brown rice or acupuncture or something, you know, something mysterious. And no, I was talkin’ with them about how we should approach ourselves, how should we connect with ourselves. And focus on development, not on some disease, human development, our development, our development as neighbors, as human beings, and a community. And the second most important cardinal principle for us... Well, we have 12 principles, so let me... Holism was a part of an approach. So we break up the 12 principles into beliefs, tools, and goals, right? So lemme just talk about the goals because I was going more into the belief system. So the goals are, [01:46:00] number one, creating community. We need to promote in every member of El Puente that their first responsibility always is to create community wherever they are, whether 54 �they are in prison or outside of this present community. Wherever they are, where they find themselves, their job as human beings is to create community. And the second one, the second cardinal principle is really a corollary of that, and that is to love and care for each other. So loving and caring, the second cardinal principle. The third one is mastery. That we are about excellence in everything that we do. It’s not about getting by, so it’s about really honing our skills, whatever we do, you know. Our relationships have to be the most loving, our learning has to be the most excellent, our applications the best. [01:47:00] Our community and this world is rather oppressed, so it’s our obligation to be masterful in our approach to change it. And the last one is peace and justice. That what we stand for and that the most important thing in terms of creating community and loving and caring for each other and being masterful is to promote peace and justice. JJ: Yeah, can you say something about Boston when you worked there? LA: Okay, so... JJ: Just because that’s the difference. LA: Yeah, yeah, yeah, so let me just -- you know, just so you have it on the history -finish with El Puente. So 30 years later, we are seven sites. We’re the first public high school for human rights in America. Actually, PBS did a survey of 52 countries and declared on primetime, on national television that the El Puente [01:48:00] Academy for Peace and Justice was the only public school in that – in our case high school, for human rights in the world. We thought we were the only one in the city, but then the state department let us know we were the only 55 �ones in the country, and PBS declared that we were the only ones in the world. Now, we opened up in 1993, so that was some 11 years later since the founding of El Puente as a whole. We are a community health and environment institute. We were able to stop the development of a 55-story incinerator that was already legislated in the city by the New York City Council by, four years later, getting the governor to basically sign into law a measure for bidding incineration, so basically, doing away with that vote of the city council. And been doing all kinds of stuff around environmental justice ever since, including last year launching [01:49:00] a 10-year initiative, which we call the Green Light District, to transform this one square mile called the Southside of Williamsburg, by knocking on everyone’s door, engaging everybody we can, block by block, to transform ourselves into a community at the highest level of community health and environmental wellness. Doing wellness assessments, looking at our physical, our emotional, our political, our environmental, our artistic, and cultural wellbeing, and then coming up with action plans, engaging everybody. Because you’re right, we’ve suffered gentrification, and a lot of our community, even though we’re still slightly the majority in the core aspect of the Southside, we won’t hold on to that for long. The important thing is for those of us who are here to stay here and to believe that we have a future here. And of course when you wake up one day [01:50:00] and all the bodegas are gone, and instead you have very nice French bistros and bagel stores and all kinds of other things. I’m not saying anything against them, right, but they’re not our bodegas, and they’re not our restaurants, and you, kind of, feel like it’s gone. And you’re not hearing salsa 56 �music at every street as we do in the summer, and you’re not seeing all the people playing dominoes everywhere as we used to, and what you mostly hear is some rock music. You begin to think it’s all over, and that all that’s left is for you to move, and we’re saying no, we’re staying here. So, in fact, we’re committing ourselves a green light to move forward, and so that’s what we’re doing. And thus the Green Light District involve five different committees and looking at greening spaces, looking at health, looking at making all the changes we need to shrink our carbon footprint in our homes and our buildings. Every aspect of our [01:51:00] life is covered by this Green Light District. And we have a fantastic garden, amazing gardeners from the so-called hipsters, white, upper- and middle-class young people who are now part of our community, to people from Bangladesh who are living among us, to, of course, Latinos, everybody. I always felt -- and I say this is kiddingly, but somewhat serious -- I think that we could have a really good comedy reality show just putting a camera on the garden because it’s so funny the kind of cultural stuff that comes up. It’s a riot. Keeps the person in charge of the garden very busy all the time. And, of course, we have our leadership centers. So we have three leadership centers in Williamsburg and one in Bushwick [01:52:00] where young people and two of them, adults, become -- are members of El Puente. We have two that are mostly adolescent, but two that are everybody from 6 years old to 60 and beyond. So we have all of these activities going on. And for some people with the most -and we are the most comprehensive Latino center for art and Culture; we have 29 artists on staff. For others, we’re the community health and environment 57 �institute, and all they hear about is the environmental justice work and stuff like that. And still for others, we’re the pioneers in educational reform, in the small school movement, in the social justice movement. Remember, there are no schools in social justice until we started one. Now, there are also kinds of schools for social justice. I remember the Albizo Campos School coming up from Chicago, and of course, they’re a private school, but we’re a public school. And until they really [01:53:00] brought it up, I said, I always know in the back of my mind that we’re good at infiltrating the system, you know, but they really brought it to witness it. They, “This is a public school,” and I said, “Yeah.” “They let you have these images and do this work, and you have Che Guevara everywhere, and you have all this stuff and...?” I said, “Yeah, of course.” “It’s a public school?” (laughter) I said, “Yes, it’s a public school.” So I think that brought it home to us how lucky we were actually in having a great chancellor, Joe Fernandez who believed in us and thought that we could create a great school, and I think we’ve lived up to it. We’re virtually A+ rated every year. Our young people... JJ: Isn’t that [Joe?] Fernandez from Lehman College, isn’t it? LA: I think he went to Lehman, I’m not sure. JJ: No, this guy was the president. LA: No, no, no, no, no, no, no. [01:54:00] No, he didn’t go to Lehman, no, not the same. That’s right, not Joe. JJ: I don’t (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) 58 �LA: Joe actually is a New Yorker, joined the service. I think he got a GED, I’m not sure, I’m sure that’s how he started, you know, but eventually he became the -he became --he’s -- he became rather famous nationally as the head of the Dade County Public School System, and then he came to New York, a good guy. And he started this movement to create small schools, and he would allow these small schools to partner with the department of education if they had a good idea. These small groups, well, most of them were academicians, okay, universities, colleges, and stuff, and there were three of us that he accepted that were very different. One was the union, 1199, so they were allowed to start a school. One was a church, the Abyssinian Baptist Church, Powell’s old church, right, and [01:55:00] the other one was El Puente that was known more for taking over school buildings (laughter) than for, you know, creating them. And he believed in us, so, of course, everybody else didn’t, and they thought we would just implode in a year. And we wind up being a shining example of what is possible when you really want to do it. Of course, our secret weapon was Frances Lucerna, she was the founding principal, she moved the entire thing. Frances, who’s the executive director today, basically, we asked her, and she did it. She put the development team together, and she created a masterful school. JJ: Okay, if you wanna end, any final thoughts or any --? LA: I think you had asked me about Boston. Boston was -- look, I was part of the health and education ministry, as I said before, and mostly the health ministry, right, [01:56:00] the health part of that. And my daughter was very asthmatic, so I spent a lot of my time outside of Young Lords’ activities because I was in the 59 �hospital. She was given the last rites three times, so never expected to live. Thank God for steroids, which were experimental at the time, that saved her life one particular moment when she had almost expired. So, at that point, I had to take a leave absence. Juan talked to me, he says, “You can’t keep this up,” I said, “Okay.” But in that process, I had connected in my work with the Medical Committee for Human Rights, which was the activist group of doctors, and they had a student wing, and so... And I always had this dream from the seminary of becoming a doctor, of working in that area, so one thing [01:57:00] led to another, and I found myself really thinking. I mean I spent all this time in the hospitals really thinking about going to medical school but had no idea on how to do it. Never had seen a Puerto Rican doctor. And so I hooked up with this guy who was a part of the student wing of the Medical Committee for Human Rights, and he said, “You know what, you should apply for Harvard because only these big schools have the kind of money that can support you, and I think it’s possible.” And I said, “And they never had a Puerto Rican, a Puerto Rican, Dominican,” so, I said, “Okay,” and I applied. Now, it turns out that not only did they not have a Puerto Rican, they never had more than two African American students for their four-year program since the start of Harvard Medical School. And at any time since the beginning of that school -- and it’s the oldest medical school in the country -- would you ever find more than two Black people in the building until Martin [01:58:00] Luther King was assassinated. Then the faculty got together, and people started looking at themselves, started realizing that they were part of the same white supremacy structure that had brought upon the 60 �death of one of the most incredible leaders America ever had, and they decided to do something. So, of course, the more liberal, progressive side of that faculty wanted to make sure that we would include, in our admissions, people of color, and eventually, there was a compromise. That, yes, they would admit people of color, but not at the risk of giving up any white seat. So they expanded the class for the first time to include 22 African American young people, 1 Puerto Rican, Dominican, I think there were 3 Mexican Americans, 1 Native American. [01:59:00] I think that was it, and that’s how I got in, you know. JJ: Okay, any other last thought? LA: Oh, this is so much. (laughter) You’re making me think maybe I should write some of this. JJ: Look (inaudible) – END OF VIDEO FILE 61 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a779f73f74eab82cfdaf2def8254b0d5.mp4 da7e1d0eb53e5299a537949b76ff36bd Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Luis Acosta vídeo entrevista y biografía Descripción Spanish language Description entry La historia oral de Luis Acosta, entrevistado por Jose 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez el 10/25/2012 acerca de los Young Lords en Lincoln Park. Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Mexicano-Americanos--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Mexico-Americanos--Illinois--Chicago--Condiciones sociales Relaciones raciales Conflicto social Identitad cultural Partido Pantera Negra. Illinois Capí­tulo Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Acosta_Luis Title A name given to the resource Luis Acosta video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Acosta, Luis Description An account of the resource Oral history of Luis Acosta, interviewed by Jose “Cha-Cha” Jimenez on October 25, 2012 about the Young Lords in Lincoln Park. In the video, a Latino man in a dark sweater sits in front of a bookshelf facing the camera, while speaking to the interviewer who is off camera. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jimenez, Jose, 1948- (interviewer) Audio Transcription Center (transcriber) Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Mexican Americans--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Mexican Americans--Illinois--Chicago--Social conditions Race relations Social conflict Cultural identity Black Panther Party. Illinois Chapter Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-10-25 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1d47852304adeca681255418b5a5f566.pdf 872e44295af7e3a29e0fb69deb5a05ab PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Luis Neris Interviewer: Jose Jimenez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 12/14/2012 Runtime: 01:25:37 Biography and Description Oral history of Luis Neris, interviewed by Jose “Cha-Cha” Jimenez on December 14, 2012 about the Young Lords in Lincoln Park. "The Young Lords in Lincoln Park" collection grows out of decades of work to more fully document the history of Chicago's Puerto Rican community which gave birth to the Young Lords Organization and later, the Young Lords Party. Founded by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, the Young Lords became one of the premier struggles for international human rights. Where thriving church congregations, social and �political clubs, restaurants, groceries, and family residences once flourished, successive waves of urban renewal and gentrification forcibly displaced most of those Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, working-class and impoverished families, and their children in the 1950s and 1960s. Today these same families and activists also risk losing their history. �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: Okay, so like I said, we’re going to start with just some basic stuff. If you could -LUIS NERIS: Sure. JJ: -- tell me your name, and where you were born, and your, like, date of birth. LN: Okay. My name is Luis Neris, I was born in Chicago, May 24th, 1965. And, yeah -- JJ: Where were you born, please? LN: I’m sorry? JJ: Where you were born, you said? LN: In Chicago. JJ: But I mean, where -- LN: Oh, hospital. It was Belmont Community Hospital. I don’t know if it exists anymore. (laughs) But, you know, we lived in -- you know, I’m just a product of some parents that came on that wave, came looking for jobs here. And (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) -- JJ: Tell me what your -- LN: -- here! JJ: Tell me your parents’ name, and -- LN: Papi is -- JJ: -- and where were you living at the time, when you were born? 1 �LN: Papi’s name is Luis Neris, also, Angel Luis Neris, and then Mami is Loida Gorgas. And they met here in Chicago. They married in -- [00:01:00] I was... You know, we lived on Halsted and Armitage, and every time we pass by the building, we don’t go by there much, I mean, it’s a different neighborhood from what I remember. And we lived right on the corner of Halsted and Armitage. 2022 North Halsted. Right across the street from that big old empty lot that I remember. And we lived there from -- JJ: People’s Park, we used to call that People’s Park. LN: People’s Park? I didn’t know that. (laughs) JJ: Yeah, it was. It used to be... LN: But we went to Santa Teresa Church, as a matter of fact, my wife and my kids still go there. We live way up on the north side now, by O’Hare Airport, but we still go there, because we still know some of the people from the neighborhood that still go there. Carmen Uvides still goes there, JJ: Oh, Carmen Uvides is still there? LN: [armen (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) is still there, she looks just as good as always. And, you know, I stay in touch with -- JJ: Who were some of the other people there? LN: Carmen Vasquez. [Fabian Pagan?] used to go there. [00:02:00] I think he retired and he moved to Florida, but there’s just, you know. And all these people, they know my dad, too. JJ: Yeah. And now, they were part of that Council Number Nine (inaudible) LN: They were there, yeah. 2 �JJ: Is that still existing, or (inaudible) LN: I don’t know about Council Number Nine. I don’t know if it exists. But yeah, they were always involved. And my grandfather was Francisco Marcano, and Paulita Marcano, they were my grandparents, and (inaudible). He’s the one that -- he organized a lot of -- he had an organization called Parents and Childrens, Padres y Hijos, and he had softball teams for adults, he started softball for girls, back, you know, now, I have my daughter playing on travel softball, but Marcano started some of those programs. And he started the Little League Baseball, as well, for, you know, he called it “La Liga ‘Pampers’.” (laughter) And I do have some of those photos, and I apologize I didn’t bring ’em with you, but I will make sure [00:03:00] you get ’em. Marcano, you know, we grew up on Halsted Street. You know, from there, we just moved down the street, and then, you know, we didn’t have money to buy property. Although my mom always wanted to buy. But my daddy, he’s always had this dream about coming to work here, make the money, go back to Puerto Rico. So he never invested, you know, and my mom wanted him to, but he just didn’t. But we always lived on Halsted, we rented -- JJ: I didn’t get his name and her name, your mom [or?] -- LN: Yeah, I said his name is Luis Neris, same as mine. JJ: Oh, [same as your name?]. LN: And then mami’s Loida. Loida Gorgas. JJ: Okay, no, that’s right, you’re right, I’m sorry. LN: And then we moved over by, it was Waller High School, right on Howe and Armitage. And we lived there for a while, but then we moved back to Halsted 3 �Street, I mean, and it was just -- I remember the neighborhood, and kind of, like, it was a lot of Puerto Ricans, and I remember in the summer, there was a pump JJ: What do you mean, a lot of Puerto Ricans? What do you mean? LN: Lotta Puerto Ricans living on the block. JJ: Lot, like [00:04:00] 40 percent, 30 percent? LN: Oh, no, no, I would say, like, a majority of them. I would say, like, 90 percent. I mean, when we lived on Halsted, Halsted and Wisconsin, and in the summers it was like, it was so nice, you see all these people outside, you know, just hanging out and talking. I mean, it was, after a hard day’s work they’re outside, and some people are playing the guitarra, I mean, I remember Perfecto Nieves playing the guitarra across the street, and then another foursome playing dominos, you know, while he played the guitarra, and the women over here talking, and the kids running all over the street. And in the summers, when it got really hot, I remember the water pump, right on Wisconsin and Halsted. They would put, like, a tire around it, with a board (laughs) so the water could shoot up, and somebody would, you know, come and open. I mean, Halsted Street is pretty busy now, but back then there wasn’t a lot of traffic, you know, and it was just... But that’s how I remember the neighborhood. [00:05:00] And then Marcano, I call him Marcano, but he pretty much raised my mom. He’s my mom’s stepfather. But that’s the grandfather I know. And he had all these organizations, and he had baseball leagues, and all the neighborhood kids played in it, it was Little League Baseball, he had the softball for girls. And he 4 �was always with a camera on. I mean, he would take a camera everywhere. And that’s when -- he would document so much, and it’s a shame that he’s not part of this piece, because he would have so much information. But before he passed away, he would tell me, he would say, “Hey, Luisi--” He called me Luisito, everybody in the family called me Luisito. And he’s like, “Mira, Luisito,” and he knew I was in school, and for whatever reason, he left everything to me. And I have all those tapes, and he left me a lot of pictures, and those are the ones that I didn’t bring. But I will make sure you get ’em, because I think they’re part of what you’re trying to docu-- what should be documented. [00:06:00] It’s a forgotten part. It’s a shame that it was just erased, but, you know, thankful that we have people like yourselves and [Grant?] and people who are interested in making sure that we don’t forget about what happened and how Puerto Ricans did live there, and... JJ: Why don’t you want us to forget it? LN: I think it’s important. I mean, it’s part of history. It’s important for people to know that we -- where we came from, where we lived, some of the struggles, I think, that a lot of -- my parents had... JJ: Like, what were they? LN: Well, you know, job unfairness. Just because of who they were, because they were Puerto Ricans. You know, I’m a little bit younger, but even now, I mean, I’ve had my experiences at work. I mean, I’m a government employee, and when I started -- JJ: [00:07:00] What do you do for the government? 5 �LN: I’m a federal investigator. JJ: Oh, okay. LN: Yeah. We investigate fraud against, you know, government programs. JJ: Oh, that’s good. That’s good. LN: And I’ve been doing that for a while, but, you know, and I can understand -- I mean, I see some of the stuff that I’ve experienced, and I can’t imagine what my parents, or even people back then, you know, experienced, as far as racial tensions or racial discrimination. It should be about who you are, not where you came from, not the color of your skin. I mean, Puerto Ricans come in all shapes and sizes and colors. Marcano, my grandfather, was Black. I mean, dark skin, afro. My grandfather, my dad’s father, was Black. I have a cousin who’s whiteskin, blue eyes, blonde hair. (laughs) I mean, they run the gamut, and I think it’s important that what happened in Humboldt -- not in Humboldt Park, in Lincoln Park, is documented, because [00:08:00] it’s gone. And we almost got pushed out. We almost didn’t, we did get pushed out, we got pushed west. I lived in Lincoln Park till 1991, ’92... JJ: Well, what do you mean, pushed out? Do you -- LN: Well, I think they kept getting pushed west. Prices -- JJ: How -- oh, prices. Oh. LN: Prices, rent prices were expensive. And the few Puerto Ricans who did buy, who had the property there, eventually sold, because they were -- some of them were not very well-educated. And they were smart enough to buy property, so if you buy a property, and I’m just throwing numbers out here, for 10,000 dollars, and 6 �then 10 years later, somebody comes and offers you 100, for them, it’s like, “Oh my God,” you know, “this is a good return on my investment, I’m outta here! Here, take my property!” And then that’s taken down, and then you build up a nice condominium, which is what started happening. And [00:09:00] so, either they got -- you know, a lot of people got bought out, if they had a building that was rented. “Sorry,” you know, “I sold the building,” and the new owner’s not gonna want these folks, because he’s gonna raise the rent, he wants it. And so a lot of the rents went up, properties were bought, and where else could you go? You had to go somewhere where you could afford to live. And I think people started migrating west. Wicker Park, you know, all those neighborhoods. And a lot of Puerto Ricans ended up in Humboldt Park as a result. I can’t go back any further than that, because I was born in the ’60s, but I do remember that. I do remember going to school at Newberry School, I went to Newberry, and then I eventually went to Waller -JJ: What was that like? What was Newberry like? LN: Newberry was a mix. It was, you know, it was a hood! (laughs) You know, you had Puerto Ricans and you had Blacks, and you had your other Hispanic, you had some Mexicans, but yeah, that was the school. I mean, [00:10:00] and it was kinda like -- JJ: It was a “hood,” what do you mean? What do you mean? LN: It was a neighborhood, where, you know, it’s just a term that we use, and... JJ: I know it has meaning to it, I’m just trying to find out what it means to you. 7 �LN: To me, the meaning that I give it is, it’s like, mi casa. You know? It’s where I grew up. It’s my neighborhood. And, you know, (laughs) “hood” is short for neighborhood, but that’s where, I believe... That’s what I call it. My “hood,” is because that’s where I grew up, that’s where I lived for most of my young life. And that’s where Newberry was. Newberry, I remember the clínica, right, on Halsted. It was a Infant and Welfare Society. And right next door there was a big ol’ empty parking lot. Not empty. It was a parking lot for the clinic. And right next to that was, Marcano had this club, this nightclub. JJ: Right. ’Cause there was Planned Parenthood, they [00:11:00] put that up later. LN: I think, yeah, that was much later. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) But that wasn’t Marcano. Marcano (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LN: No, that was not Marcano. JJ: So he had, like, a social club? LN: He had a social club. And these pictures that I have, he gave them to me, you know, there’s pictures of that club, there’s pictures of people you may even know. He has got video -- I brought it, because I wanted you to have it. He gave it to me before he passed away, wanted to make sure I kept it. ’Cause he always said, “I know you’re gonna do something good with it.” And I couldn’t get rid of ’em, you know, I was going through it the other day, and he’s got notes in there, you know, it’s like, stuff that he would write, and he... JJ: Now, you saw some of it, or...? 8 �LN: Yeah, exac-- You know, he would take the video and then he would make us sit down and watch this thing. And I remember, you know, he would put the reel-toreel, and we would sit there, and it was kind of cool because it’s like, you know those old movies where you see the (imitates a sound effect) (laughs) and you could see, there no sound, but you can hear that. That was the sound, I remember. And it’s all black and white. And I would see these movies over and over and over, and sometimes, you know, there are [00:12:00] some of them of us, when we were kids, and he would document us, and then, he would document everything. I mean, he would document whatever parade he had, excuse me, whatever event he had, he would take pictures, he had it all. And my grandmother always got mad at him, ’cause he would always store this stuff, and it would just, like. And it would start off as a little bit here, and then it would grow, and then he would move it (inaudible). I mean, it just expanded. And a lot of the pictures that he gave me, after he passed away, I made a video of him and my grandmother, and some of the things -- some of the pictures that he gave me, and I put it on a DVD and I sent it to my grandmother and my mom. Kinda like, as a memory of him. There’s a lot of pictures I didn’t put in there because, you know, there were other people that -- and I wanted it to be something of him. JJ: So we have pictures of him, too, then. LN: You do have pictures of him, you will have pictures of him. And I know when you see ’em, you’ll remember. And so, he gave me a bunch of [00:13:00] tapes, and he noticed that a lot of the -- and you’ll see, the reel-to-reel, it’s very fine, because it’s so old. But what he did, and this was his way of documen-- trying to 9 �secure it, he put it on the wall, and then he took a video camera, and he was, like, trying to, with a VHS tape. So there’s also a VHS tape of that film in here. So you’ll have it, and, you know, you guys are more than welcome to take it, and I’m sure I’ll put it in good hands. JJ: And did you need the original, or do you want us to...? LN: Whatever I give you, that’s what I’m gonna give you. I -- JJ: So then we just send you the copies? LN: Yeah. JJ: Whatever we want? LN: Yeah, I mean, whichever way is easiest for you. Because, I mean, I don’t have the capability of playing some of this stuff -- JJ: No, no, [we’ll do it there?] and then we’ll (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LN: And then the other tapes that he has on here is -- JJ: To the address you gave us? LN: Yes. JJ: Okay. LN: The recording, this was before cassettes, you know, remember the reel-to-reel things? It’s a little tape. __: Yeah. JJ: Oh, yeah. LN: And there was a lot of [00:14:00] stuff like that. I mean, the guy was amazing, and I was telling my wife the other day, he would make the camellos -- JJ: I definitely remember his name, I just (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) 10 �LN: He would do camellos. JJ: Been 40-some years, I can’t -- LN: And he would sit at home and we would run out of wire hangers because he was always inventing things. And he made horses--camels out of wire, and then he would have my grandmother drape it, you know, to make it look like a camel. And he would do this, like, you know, his little tweezers and his little tools, and now you see it, like, you see Santa’s snowmen outside of people’s lawns, out of the wire, I’m like, you know, Marcano, he used to do this stuff! The guy was a visionary. But he wanted to make sure that, you know, the Puerto Ricans there had somewhere to go. You know, I belonged to a boys club, boys and girls club in Chicago, when I got here. JJ: At that [00:15:00] time? LN: Well -- JJ: Was it the boys club on -- LN: There was a boys club, Eisenberg’s Boys Club. Right on... Orchard and Willow. JJ: Exactly, yeah. LN: And kinda like what Marcano had was, you know, similar to a boys club, but for adults, you know? He had all this organizations, all these people there, and they were all involved. I mean, there’s -- he -- JJ: So he had a sports social club (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LN: A sports social club. JJ: [I don’t wanna?] -- I shouldn’t label things, but (inaudible) LN: Well... 11 �JJ: Is that what he was, or [am I--?]? LN: Yep. Mm-hmm. Exacto. And he had a lot of people, and he -- JJ: Was it for the Caballeros de San Juan or was it just (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? LN: He was part -- no, it was apart from Caballeros de San Juan, it was kinda -- I don’t know if it was something similar, but I remember he had -- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) social clubs, there was a social club... LN: I think he belonged to all those clubs. He did. (laughs) And I have a younger brother who was also born in Chicago, he’s living in Puerto Rico, and I have a younger sister, also, who was born in Chicago. And all the family -- JJ: What’s their names? I didn’t get their names. LN: [00:16:00] Osvaldo Neris and Ivelisse Neris. But they moved with my mom to Puerto Rico years ago. But, you know, all my family, the Gorgas family, was there on Halsted at one time or another. JJ: Borjas? LN: Gorgas. JJ: Gorgas, okay. All right. LN: Yeah. G-O-R-G-A-S, Gorgas. Strange last name. Both of my last names, I think, are. (laughs) Pero, yeah, it was mostly Puerto Ricans, and I still run into people, the other day I was at the hospital with my dad, he had some surgical procedure done, and I saw, you know, a guy I grew up with, and he was waiting to get picked up, and the Uvides family, I don’t know if you heard of [Julio?] Uvides. 12 �JJ: Exactly. LN: And Carmen Uvides. JJ: They were from Council Number Nine (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LN: Yeah, they were involved too. I mean, they did a lot, and... I think Marcano eventually named one of his leagues the Julio Uvides Baseball League, and that was for the little kids. And then he had Julio [00:17:00] Uvides Softball League. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) at that time. (inaudible) LN: And he used to have the slow-pitch softball. JJ: He was definitely a community leader. LN: And that was a lot of people, I’m telling you, [like?], Lincoln Park, I mean, he used to get permits for everything there. At Lincoln Park, the actual park, not the neighborhood, but the park. And he had permits, he knew the guys at the park district, they would -- but I remember -- I do remem-- JJ: Did he have a city [dab?] or, no, [he didn’t?]? LN: No, he didn’t. No, he didn’t. JJ: He didn’t? LN: No. JJ: But he just knew the guys at the park district. LN: Knew the guys at the park district. JJ: So he was working with the mayor at that time, then. LN: He wasn’t working with the mayor. He had the organization, and I don’t know how, I mean, I’m not a politician, but now, you know, having seen stuff that happens in the paper and how things work in Chicago -- 13 �JJ: [You gotta?] (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) the city. Yeah. LN: You know, you gotta know somebody. And, you know, Marcano did have a lot of people in his organization. A lot of parents. And there was not a fee, I mean, Marcano didn’t charge a fee. And I think even for the kids, I think, maybe they would get uniforms, I don’t know how the whole uniform thing worked out, but when you [00:18:00] have an organization that big in a neighborhood, and... You know, it’s all about votes, you know? And I’m sure the politicians are gonna come and say “Hey,” you know, “who’s the leader here?” And they would talk to Marcano. And I do remember, you know, we had baseball bats, we had gloves, we had everything. We had boxes, and Marcano would lug it around in his big ol’ station wagon in the back, you know? Bases, everything. And so, it’s just the way, I guess, politics works (laughs) and you get the -- JJ: Yeah, exactly. That’s the way it did work. You had an organization, you were good. LN: They wanted it. Those are votes. I think they see them as votes. But he had a lot of contacts, he had a lot of connections. And I never asked him, and I don’t know how the whole -- JJ: So he never talked to you about politics, he talked to you about sports. LN: Exacto, yeah, yeah, he never pushed the politics part, yeah. JJ: So he was more [interested in?] (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). LN: They knew that -- I think that -- I have cousins who eventually did work for the park district, and I think they worked with the ward person at the time -- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) Committeemen, [00:19:00] whatever. 14 �LN: Committeemen, yeah, and, you know -- JJ: [Aldermen?] (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LN: -- kinda knock on doors, and, you know, it’s just the way Chicago is. (laughs) And some of them are still working there, I think some of them retired. But Marcano, I remember, before he left to Puerto Rico, because he got older, and he’s like, you know, “I’ve had it here, I’m gone.” And he left in, I wanna say 1986, ’87? That’s when he left to Puerto Rico? JJ: What do you think he was mad about, or frustrated, or whatever? LN: Why he left? JJ: Yeah, why he went (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LN: No, he left because he was just, you know, he was here alone. I mean, he had us, and I considered him my grandfather, I mean, I knew him my entire life, but I think he was at that stage in his life where he said, “You know what, I --” The winters were brutal here. I do remember when he left, he’s like, “You know, I can’t handle another winter here.” So he left. I mean, he’s like, he’s got a house in Puerto Rico. “I’m going back.” And that’s what he did, he went back. I don’t think he was frustrated, I mean, he loved Chicago. [00:20:00] You know, he came here. I remember the video. Again, I’m going all by memory for the video. There’s video of him coming to Chicago, and they’re saying goodbye to him in Puerto Rico, and then he’s got the camera here. I mean, he brought the camera with him. He’s documenting everything. But I don’t think there was any frustration about anything, I think it was just... He lived in the neighborhood for a long time, and I think he, mor-- 15 �JJ: Did he talk about why he documented? I mean, what was his fascination (inaudible)? LN: You know, it’s a shame that he’s not around to tell you, because, again, I was giving the example of the stuff we ran out of wire hangers. And how he would make stuff, like, out of wire hangers. The guy didn’t have an education, and I see snowmen on people’s lawns, and reindeers, out of the same thing. Maybe it’s that he saw, “This has gotta be documented somewhere.” Maybe this is what he wanted all along, to make sure that [00:21:00] the Puerto Ricans in that neighborhood, or the Puerto Ricans coming here, were not forgotten, that they lived in Lincoln Park, and then, that asides from, you know, more or less having to move out of the neighborhood for whatever reason, whether through sale, or rent increases, or whatever -- JJ: Was the moving going out -- were people moving out at the same time that he was documenting, or? LN: I don’t think so. No, I -- well, he documented when we were living there. Again, I’m going back to what I remember from what -- and you will see this. The activities, I remember something going on at a church on Armitage, between Armitage and I don’t know if it’s Bissell or Burling. It’s Burling, right? JJ: The church there? LN: Yeah, the church there. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) people’s church -- LN: People on the street, I remember, you know, being on my -- on the film, I think I’m there, I’m on my dad’s shoulders, and there’s people everywhere. I don’t 16 �know what they were shouting about, or what they were screaming -- I was a kid, you know. (laughs) And I haven’t seen the movies in a long time. But he [00:22:00] documented everything, and I think when he -- he had a restaurant, too, called El Batey Restaurant, right on Halsted and Armitage. JJ: El Batey LN: A lot of people coming through. I remember politicians coming in and getting bussed in to the back seats, where the big tables were. (laughs) You know? And they were seated, and not for nothing, but, you know, Puerto Rican women know how to cook, man, and they (inaudible). (laughter) I gain a lot of weight when every time I go to Puerto Rico, ’cause Mami takes care of me like I’m a king, and I’m like, “I can’t do this.” But they cook really good, and he had the restaurant there, so he documented a lot of that stuff. He had events there, you know? He did plays, I remember being part of the Christmas plays. He made a play called El puerco de Osvaldo en tiempo de Navidad. And he came up with the skit. JJ: “The pig of Osvaldo in the time --” LN: Yeah, “Osvaldo’s pig in the time of the holidays”, you know? And Osvaldo would go to everybody, the thing is, Abuelo would go to Osvaldo, which was my younger brother, you know. He would go to everybody’s Christmas party and eat lechón, and he had a little pig as his pet. And you know, they [00:23:00] were like, saying, “Hey, you know what! [Get away?], your time’s coming!” He’s like, “No, not this year, maybe next year.” So he would eat everybody’s roasted pig, but nobody -- like, he never, I mean, that was his pet, he would never get rid of it, 17 �like, no way. And he made stori-- and we would play ’em at the -- we would do the play at the Museum of Science and Industry. And I remember his organization also was in charge of decorating the Puerto Rican Christmas tree at the Museum of Science and Industry. And that was an event in itself. They would make the maracas. He would make the little... The big knives, machete. (laughs) When he would knit the little Puerto Rican flag, and he would make the little pavas, the little jíbaro hats, and he would put a ribbon in. The tree was decorated, I mean, I remember my grandmother used to do this stuff, ’cause they -- grandma was a decorator, and my mom, they loved decorating, they loved arrangements and stuff, and they would do all these little things for the tree, and it was a beautiful [00:24:00] tree. And then he would have people coming over during the holidays, and you know, (Spanish) [00:24:04], you know, there was a parranda, and then trying to tell people what Puerto Ricans were like. And I don’t know if you know about the Museum of Science and Industry, they have the “Christmas Around the World”, and every year they decorate a tree from each country around the world, and it’s an exhibit. I think it’s going on now, through the end of... Maybe after January. But he would document all of that stuff. And as a kid, I remember, you know, living there, and being part of this, and then eventually having to move out because, again, he didn’t own the property. He had the restaurant there, we lived upstairs. He eventually had to move somewhere else because they sold the building, he had to get rid of the restaurant. So he went to Orchard, it was on Orchard Street, 1665 North Orchard. It was between [00:25:00] North Avenue and Willow. And it was all 18 �projects that are there, it’s low-income housing. And because they were now older, you know, they got an opportunity to get an apartment that -JJ: Willow and... Orchard? LN: Willow and Orchard. JJ: Where the boys club was. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LN: Yeah. Well, you know, the boys club was torn down. (laughs) ’Cause they tore that boys club down, because enrollment dropped, I remember, and it was valuable property. JJ: So was that crime (inaudible)? So was that Section 8, or...? LN: The boys club? JJ: YeahI mean the -- what they built afterwards. LN: No, yeah, those were condos. JJ: They were condos? LN: Oh, yeah, they tore the boys club down and -- condos. I do remember -- JJ: [Were you?] saying you lived there, somebody lived there, right? LN: Yeah, my grandma lived there. Well, it was right on the corner, the boys club was right on the corner -- JJ: But they didn’t live in a condo. Did they, or did they live in a condo? LN: My grandparents? JJ: Yeah. LN: No, no, they lived -- well, the boys club was right on Willow and Orchard. Right on the corner. And then, the boys club had that corner lot there. The Section 8 housings that I’m talking about is behind it. So, [00:26:00] that’s where -- we 19 �could walk to the boys club from there, I remember. We would walk from the apartment to the boys club. Then, when the boys club enrollment dropped, or maybe, again, somebody was offering a lot of money, it’s prime property, they tore that down, that entire block from Orchard and Willow, almost to Laramie, or to Howe, I think Howe was the next street over. And you know what, I think it even went over to Laramie -- Larrabee, Larrabee, which is further down. And all that whole block was torn down, and they made condos, very expensive condos, I remember. And then when they tore the boys club down, we had nowhere else to go, I mean -JJ: So you went to the boys club? LN: Oh, I went to the boys club. JJ: So what happened in there, what was going on there? LN: It was more after-school activities. I remember -- JJ: And who was the population, I mean, (inaudible)? LN: Mostly African American from the Cabrini-Green homes. And then you had your few Puerto Ricans that would come in. I remember I went there, and yeah, I think the fee was, like, I don’t know, two, three bucks for the year. And we got our little card, and we would go there, play basketball, we’d go swimming. JJ: No dodgeball? LN: [00:27:00] Oh yeah, dodgeball, kickball, you name it. Softball in the back. The boys club was so big, I mean, the lot that they had, I remember there was a softball field in the back. And they would have events in the summer, like, you 20 �know, summer Olympics or something. I mean, yeah, but mostly it was African American, from Cabrini-Green and in the neighborhood, but then you had -JJ: At that time. LN: At that time. JJ: We played dodgeball, when I was growing up. LN: Oh, is that right? (laughter) And then you had your Puerto Rican -- JJ: It was more Puerto Rican then, but (inaudible) LN: Yeah. (laughter) Yeah, I eventually (inaudible) you got out! JJ: (inaudible) Cabrini-Green got pushed out to later. LN: Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah. That’s -- JJ: I’m sorry, I’m going off -- LN: That’s changed big time. JJ: I’m going off the time. LN: Pero, pero no, I mean, I mean, that’s what I remember. JJ: But you remember playing basketball there and that you played (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LN: Basketball, oh yeah, absolutely, basketball, softball in the back. Again, you know, dodgeball, kickball, they had the nice swimming pool. We would go in there, they would let us in at night. I forget who we knew, or maybe one of my friends knew somebody who would open the door for us, and we would go in after hours, which was [00:28:00] kinda cool, it was just -- we had the swimming pool all to ourself. Obviously under supervision, [we didn’t?], you know, go in there by ourselves. But nothing I would admit to on tape. (laughter) Pero it was, 21 �you know, it was a good time. It was a good time, and it’s unfortunate that, you know, I mean, it is what it is. I eventually moved out, myself, ’cause it just got too expensive. After Marcano moved out, it was -- his rent there was based on his income, and because he was on Social Security, he paid, like, I think it was, like, something crazy, like, 64 bucks or something. Entonce, and I was there, I was at school at the time, I went to Columbia College. And it was just him, my grandmother -JJ: What was your major there? What was that? (laughs) LN: Communications, imagine that. (laughs) And I’m doing something completely different now. JJ: (inaudible) LN: But he, you know, he paid something crazy, and then when he moved, we had to report it. And so I reported it to the office, [00:29:00] and the rent shot up to 400 bucks, and I was there by myself. And it was okay, I mean, I delivered pizzas in the neighborhood, I mean, at O’Fame Restaurant and I did that for six, seven years, and they actually, it was pretty good money, you know. Cash money, no taxes. (laughs) JJ: Tips, you [got?] those. LN: Tips were great. I delivered mostly in the Lincoln Park area, which I knew like the back of my hand, and we would come downtown as well, and up north. And they fed me, and I worked three, four nights out of the week, I was living by myself, I’m eating pizza. I love pizza! (laughter) I wanna have pizza in the morning, you know, I wanna have pizza at night. And every night, they had food 22 �for us. So it was a good thing for me. But, you know, the 400 dollars, man, it’s like, I’m a college kid! You know? I gotta pay school, I gotta pay my own bus fare, you know, and granted, we did get some financial assistance, I got financial assistance, but it just wasn’t enough. And then, I did that, and I got a job when I graduated -JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) ’cause, I mean, at that time some people, [00:30:00] I remember we got paid, like, 80 dollars a month, so... LN: Is that right? JJ: So 400 is a lot. LN: It is a lot. JJ: When they raised it to 400, [we moved?]. LN: I had to. (laughs) I had to. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LN: Yeah, I had to. I think I stayed there for a bit, but you know, it was -- I made a little bit more money than my parents, you know, it’s like, I made about 75, 80 bucks a night, at the time, back in the ’80s, I think that was good, man. JJ: Very good. LN: For a kid, you know, working -- JJ: So this was the ’80s, ’cause you were living there in the ’80s, that’s [pretty?] -- LN: I was still living there, yeah. The ’80s. JJ: That’s pretty (inaudible). I thought that most Puerto Ricans were gone by that time, no? They just -- LN: They were. Oh, yeah, absolutely. 23 �JJ: So when was the change, did you see the change? LN: You’re absolutely -- oh yeah, I saw it. I mean, I think we were probably -- JJ: What was that like, the change, can you describe that or...? LN: I mean, we wouldn’t even venture down Halsted Street. We didn’t know anybody. You know, it wasn’t the same. I told you the story about when I was a kid, remembering the Puerto Ricans playing the guitarra, playing dominos, you know, hanging out, haciendo chiste’, [00:31:00] the kids running around, you know. There was none of that, ’cause you know, our culture, we love to enjoy everything, I think. And we go to the extreme. (laughs) You know? And we have the parrandas in there, and we go all out. And you can still see some of that in Humboldt Park, if you drive down Division Street, I’m sure you can see that in the summer. Pero, when we moved over there, to the Section 8 housing, I don’t remember any Puerto Ricans. Any Puerto Ricans. I lived on 1911. I think there’s still one family there. JJ: Halsted, or...? LN: 1911 North Halsted, which is right by Wisconsin. And the house that we lived there, it’s still there, ’cause I drove around there not too long ago. And I am willing to bet that the guy who bought it -- the guy who owned it when I was there, either his daughter or his -- somebody, they still own it. It’s still there. 1911 North Halsted. And I think that’s the only family. But it was a complete change, there was none of the hanging out outside, none of the, [00:32:00] you know, us playing against the guys from down the street, there was none of that. Because, it’s a completely different, you know, young people were moving in... 24 �JJ: Some people would think that hanging out outside would be rowdiness or something like that. LN: I don’t remember -- JJ: Was it like that, or (inaudible) LN: I don’t remember it being rowdy, not at all. No. I mean... JJ: Or at least scary, or something. LN: You know, it’s just that the people that live there, they like the music. That’s probably what they did in Puerto Rico, you know? And they just brought that here. To other people, they’re more like, “Oh, what are they doing hanging outside?” You know? But I don’t remember it ever being a problem. ’Cause it just wasn’t one night. You know? I mean, it wasn’t every night, though, ’cause people had to work. (laughs) But I remember the hanging out outside, you know, absolutely. But it wasn’t -- yeah, you’re right, people may consider it hanging out, you know, it’s not like a bunch of kids hanging out, it’s a [00:33:00] whole different world nowadays, you know. Kids hanging out outside, you know, in groups, nowadays, cannot compare to hanging out back in the day, when I was growing up, ’cause it was just kids running around, parents were outside. You know, there was, at least for the most part, at least from what I remember, I saw Mom and Dad there. Not speaking in terms of my mom and dad, but mom and dads of other kids there. Like, the couple. Nowadays, different, divorce rate, whatever. You don’t see Mom, you don’t see Dad, you just see the kid, and his buddies hanging out outside. And you can make your judgment on whatever you see there at the time, but, you know, my hanging out that I’m describing is, it was 25 �a good hanging out, you know. It wasn’t none of the, like you said, people may perceive it as being bad, but when we moved over there, it was a whole different neighborhood. I mean, it was just -- there was -JJ: Over where, to...? LN: When we moved over by the boys club, [00:34:00] by the Section 8 housing, the Halsted that I remember was pretty much gone. I mean, condos were going up, houses were being torn down. You know, different people moving in that were not Puerto Rican, people who owned the property or people who rented it. And it just, you know, it was just a different neighborhood. I mean, completely, it was transformed. But I was too young, I mean, I didn’t know. Marcano probably did. That’s probably why he documented it. Maybe he said, “This eventually will be part of something.” And, you know, you’re gonna have it in your hands, and you guys can do what you want. What I did not find, which I know I still have at home, is a bigger reel-to-reel. And I have your address, I know I’m gonna find it, ’cause we were moving some stuff around. And I got the pictures. And he wanted to document [00:35:00] everything. I don’t know why. Maybe it’s because we take pictures. I have a camera at home, I got over 20 thousand pictures of my kids, you know? (laughs) And maybe that’s just what I -- I enjoy doing it. JJ: Well, some of that (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) Some of that we’d probably also would like, ’cause it’s about you, I mean, this is all histories about you. [I mean?], I’m glad that we were honoring Marcano, because he definitely -- I appreciate what he was doing. 26 �LN: Yeah. JJ: I mean, as someone who’s trying to document stuff now, I appreciate what he was -- LN: I will tell you, Cha Cha, that if -- JJ: And he was a leader, he was definitely a born leader -- LN: He was a definite leader. JJ: -- in Lincoln Park (inaudible). LN: I mean, I don’t know what your budget is like, but my grandmother’s still alive. His wife. She’s in Puerto Rico. And -- JJ: We do go to Puerto Rico, I just came back from (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LN: If you go to Puerto Rico, let me know. I mean, she lives in Gurabo. Right next to her, right literally next to her is her son, her younger son, Junior Gorgas, Jose Gorgas. [00:36:00] And, you know, they have a lot they could tell you as well. And Abuela, although she’s a little bit older, she’s in her nineties, and she doesn’t remember what happened yesterday, she’s got an amazing memory of what happened 40, 50 years ago, you know. And I’m sure she could provide you with a lot more info as well. More about -- because, remember, I was a younger kid. I remember just, you know, being born there with the -- Papi told me that was the building, and I remember what I did as a kid on Halsted -- JJ: [No?], your generation is what we’re talking about, too, so -- LN: Oh, pero if you’re looking for further back, Abuela, and Marcano, who unfortunately passed away, Abuela would definitely have more. Because she 27 �lived through that change, and she, you know, she was a little bit older. She remembered a lot more. And -JJ: You don’t know what year they came to Chicago, do you? LN: Well, I was born in [00:37:00] ’65. I wanna say, I think my mom, she said she was 17, 18 when she had me, she wasn’t born here, she was born in Puerto Rico. I wanna say maybe in the late ’50s, it’s gotta be late ’50s. JJ: Now did they always say they lived in Lincoln Park, or did they live somewhere else before that? LN: Always Lincoln Park. Always Lincoln Park. JJ: So they came in the late ’50s to Lincoln Park. LN: As far as I remember, yes. ’Cause I remember, for a while, I don’t know if you heard of a company called [Cumings Display?]. (laughs) It’s a flower shop. And they used to work there on Halsted Street. But they lived on Ar-- my abuela lived on -- JJ: Yes, I do remember that. LN: -- on Armitage, right by Santa Teresa, right by the L. JJ: Cumings Display, okay, [that?] (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LN: Cumings Display was on Halsted, it was a flower shop, and then they eventually moved downtown to Wells. I remember coming downtown with my mom and my grandmother. Maybe that’s where they got -- JJ: So they’re on Wells now? LN: They used to be, I think they closed. I mean, it’s been [00:38:00] years. Pero -- JJ: But they were by Saint Teresa’s? 28 �LN: Yeah. They were. And Abuela and Marcano, I remember them living by Santa Teresa church. JJ: You didn’t go to Saint Teresa’s. LN: Oh yeah, oh yeah. JJ: Oh, you went to Saint -- LN: To school? No. I went to the church. JJ: What was going on there? LN: Oh, Sunday mass. JJ: Oh, so you went to Sunday mass. LN: Yeah, yeah, Sunday mass. So they always lived in that neighborhood. Entonce’, when my grandparents decided to go to Puerto Rico, ’cause the winters were just too brutal here, they were still living over there at the houses on Orchard and Willow. So they always lived in Lincoln Park, from what I remember. I don’t know if they ever went -- they lived in Humboldt Park -- I don’t think -- I think they came to Lincoln Park, and that’s where they lived. And eventually, that was their last place. When they left, they went to Puerto Rico, you know, and that’s where they were until his death, and she’s still alive, she’s still kicking. 90 years old. And she looks good, [00:39:00] for her age. JJ: So they only moved because of the brutal winters, or? LN: I think, yeah -- they were retired, you know. There was nothing else here for them, they couldn’t do anything else. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) [retired?]? LN: Yeah. 29 �JJ: You said that the restaurant was closed down? LN: Well, the restaurant, they sold it. JJ: Twice? LN: Because he -- well, he didn’t own the building, he sold the restaurant. I mean, he rented the restaurant, and he rented the whole building. ’Cause he had the restaurant on the first floor, and then the upstairs apartment -- JJ: And this was on what corner, again? LN: Halsted and Armitage. JJ: Right on the-- (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LN: 1971 North Halsted was the address. JJ: Oh, 1971, okay. LN: ’Cause 1973 is [Nick’s] Bar, which is right on the corner, so we’re right next to the bar. (laughs) But yeah, good business, because, you know, the bar people would come over, and Puerto Rican food. (laughs) [Patilillo, murcia?], whatever they would make. And so he sold the -- I guess the restaurant -- they raised the rent, and he said, “I gotta go.” But he had the restaurant, [00:40:00] too. So he sold the restaurant to somebody else, and they kept it, they kept the name for a while, and then eventually they closed. Maybe ’cause they couldn’t cook as good as my mom or my grandma. (laughs) JJ: Now, you mentioned the people hung out on the corn-- on the outside, and that you were outside people, you hung around out there playing dominos and music. LN: Mm-hmm. JJ: Was there any -- how was the gang situation there? 30 �LN: I don’t remember a gang around there. I don’t know if it’s because -- my grandmother was very... She would always tell us, you know. She would always say, “Hey, don’t hang out, this --” She was always careful. Always watching out for us, you know. And I’m thankful for that because, you know, we were very vulnerable young men. But it was just the guys hanging out. I mean, we never -what I remember, I don’t remember ever having any troubles with gangs. As a younger kid, I remember, when we were on Armitage one time, I went to the store ’cause my mom sent me, and it was over there, it was a store right under the [00:41:00] L on Armitage, right before you get to Sheffield. And there was a store right by the alley, I don’t know, to get something, and I remember the Latin Kings being there. And there was Latin Kings there, and I think there was another gang up north, there was Harrison Gents over there by Larrabee, but over there on Halsted, I don’t remember ever... We didn’t venture too far from there ’cause, you know, our parents wouldn’t let us! (laughs) She was always watching us. But on Halsted Street, I don’t remember... JJ: That hangout that you’re saying was at the end of -- but by that time Lincoln Park was kind of gone. LN: Yeah. JJ: So was it kinda unstable at that time (inaudible)? LN: Yeah, I mean, I don’t remember the gangs -- JJ: But growing up, you didn’t see a lot of gang activity or anything like that. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LN: Well, when I went to high school -- 31 �JJ: [I know there were?] clubs, wearing sweaters and (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LN: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean, I went to high school, I remember -- I went to high school, I went to Waller one year and then it turned into Lincoln Park. And I remember that. And of course, you know, you see the guys come [00:42:00] in their sweaters. I remember the black and gold sweaters, and I remember the black and white from the Unknowns, and I think Eagles would come around once in a while... JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LN: And the Harrison Gents, which weren’t too far. You can’t compare to today, though. I mean, back then, people used to fight. Now, they shoot you. (laughs) You know? And... JJ: Right. So you can’t compare to today, and it wasn’t really... LN: I don’t think it was as -- JJ: It wasn’t really, like -- people weren’t associating with a club or something. LN: Yeah. Yeah. But just like anything else -- JJ: Is that what you’re saying? I don’t wanna put words... LN: Just like anything else, you’ll see a bunch of guys, and then there’s another, you know, you look at each other the wrong way or whatever, they don’t like you, you don’t like them. But I don’t remember -- JJ: You’re describing the later part of (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LN: Yeah, but I was just gonna tell you, I don’t remember -- 32 �JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) describing the ’80s, you’re describing the ’70s and ’80s. LN: I don’t remember the violence, you know, I remember -- and it was more like social clubs, like you said. There’s hanging out, and, I guess, for whatever, [00:43:00] you know, did they have their illegal activities? Yeah, probably. You know? I mean, it’s been around for years, you know? I don’t see why they would be any different. But, you know, it wasn’t -- at least, from where I remember, on Halsted Street, it wasn’t none of that stuff, and guys coming around -- JJ: So, (inaudible) [summarize?], so you remember it was more family-oriented, though they were outside. LN: Absolutely. Yeah. JJ: Not gang, like today, or... LN: No. No, no, no. JJ: Trafficking in drugs, or (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LN: No. I don’t remember that. And maybe, if it was around, I mean, I didn’t see it, you know. (laughs) Definitely didn’t see it. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) Your family (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LN: Nowadays, they do it out in the open market. I mean, they’ll all be out there -- JJ: -- not part of that, yeah. LN: Yeah, no, we were never part of that. JJ: Okay. You know, and I think that’s important to know, you know, people were just outside like they were in Puerto Rico, (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) 33 �LN: Right. Right, right, right. Yeah, and it’s not -- it wasn’t no, no, no, no. No big wild parties every time it was out there, it was kinda almost like serenading, you know? I liked to sit around at home, and it was quiet -- JJ: And you were born, you s-- so we’re talking about a period after the [00:44:00] community was there for a while, too. LN: Yes. JJ: ’Cause you’re talking about when it was a Puerto Rican community, and before that it was also an Italian and (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LN: Dude, that I didn’t know. Yeah, that -- the community was already established there. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) (laughs) LN: Yeah, that’s how -- the community was already established when we moved in. JJ: -- established when you were there. LN: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. JJ: So, since it was already established, it was more family. Is that what you’re saying, or? LN: Yeah, I mean, there was a lot of families on the block. You know? I mean, all the way from Halsted and Armitage all the way to Willow -- JJ: And [would you just describe?] (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LN: That’s where I remember the Calisto family lived. Willow and Orch-- Willow, and -- Halsted and Willow. And I think it even went further, I think when you got to North Avenue, then it started changing to the African American community. That’s more Cabrini-Green. 34 �JJ: Right. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LN: ’Cause you had all the projects down there. And then, but you had your African Americans right on Halsted as well. I remember a couple of families, guys that I went to school with at Newberry, you know, guys that went to school at Waller, then Lincoln Park. It was just all guys from the [00:45:00] neighborhood. But it was mostly Puerto Ricans on the block, and, you know, it was already established. It was already established, it wasn’t -- I don’t remember the transition from the other ethnic group to the Puerto Ricans. I do remember the Puerto Rican community then, you know, migrating west, or going back to Puerto Rico, wherever they went, and then the turnover to a different community. Was more white community. JJ: So there was a lot of that going on? During that -- while you were there? What year are you referring to? LN: Well, when I lived there, I was in high school, in the ’80s. JJ: Okay, the ’80, okay. LN: But it had already started to change. It had already started to change. The guys that -- I mean, I graduated from Newberry School, and then we went to Waller, Lincoln Park, and had already started to change, ’cause we had already -- we were still living on Halsted [00:46:00] and Armitage, but then in the 1980s, it started to change. I mean, I remember. But when I lived there on Halsted, it had already started to change. Now, I didn’t venture too far south on Halsted Street. Because, you know, our family was over here closer to Armitage. But there was still some people on the block. Puerto Rican families. But it did start to change. 35 �And then, when we moved over to Orchard and Willow, it was almost like, you know, after Marcano moved, I think we were probably one of the last few families to move out of there. And then it started -JJ: And this was the ’80s. LN: This was the ’80s, definitely the ’80s. Yeah. I remember we moved out [to 9th?] -- it was 1980, I graduated ’83? About ’84, ’85, ’84? Is when he eventually moved over to the homes over there. And he was there until he left. He said, you know, he’s [00:47:00] had enough, he’s gone, the winters are too brutal for him. Yeah, so that’s what I remember. The change. The change back in the mid-’80s. JJ: How did you take the change? LN: You know, I was living with my grandparents, so it’s... JJ: I mean, ’cause you grew up there, right? So you had to -- LN: Yeah, I mean, but, you know, it’s like, wherever the grandparents were going, that’s where I had to go. (laughs) You know? I mean, I didn’t -- I just had to follow where they were going. It didn’t affect me, I mean, had I wish we would’ve stayed there? Absolutely. You always wanna stay, especially if you’ve been there for years. But the community had already started to change, and it wasn’t the same thing. I mean, I would love to be able to go back in time, just for that, but as adults, and just to see how it would’ve turned out, had the community stayed with all the families there, and all the -- everybody who grew up in -[00:48:00] it would be ideal, but you know, that stuff doesn’t happen, only in movies, I think. You know? 36 �JJ: So you’re going to Waller High School during this change. How was Waller High School? You graduated from there, you said? So... LN: I did not. I graduated in ’83. What happened was, I went to Waller one year, and then it changed to Lincoln Park. And then my parents divorced -- JJ: What was that like? You know, (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LN: To me, it was just a name change. It was a name change. I mean, the school was still the same. I remember reading an article about Waller being such a bad school, and it was so bad, you know, and I have an article at home, if you want it, I’ll make sure you get it. And the only reason I kept it is because, I remember, whoever wrote it, it was in the Tribune, I was in the paper -- JJ: That would be a good thing. LN: It was a black and white photo, I was coming out of class, and there was a photographer taking pictures and I just happened to be there. Then one of my friends -- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) So you were in the-- (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LN: Yeah, one of my friends was flipping through the pages -- JJ: I definitely wanna see that. LN: And he’s like, “Hey!” And so he kept it, and he gave me the paper. [00:49:00] And so, there was an article about how bad Waller used to be, how one teacher got thrown out of a window or something, and there was always gang fights, and then, now it’s Lincoln Park, and, you know, it changed. Lincoln Park High School. And now the change. And I remember thinking, “How can a name 37 �change,” you know, “change the school so much?” You know? And eventually it did, because it’s a very -- it’s a tough school to get into now. Unless you (inaudible). But it’s -- man, oh, back then anybody could go there. But to me the change wasn’t that big of a deal, it was just Waller, and then I still saw the same students, I still saw the same teachers. Maybe eventually they got some, I don’t know, I didn’t see any big change, it was just a name change. JJ: You said before -- LN: Think it was a bad reputation, maybe. JJ: You said before that the community wasn’t really that gang type. LN: Yeah, but -- JJ: But now they’re reporting in newspapers saying that it was. LN: Well, because, no, I’m talking about Waller High School. [00:50:00] Now, remember, Waller is on -- it’s not that far from where we lived. We lived on Halsted and Armitage, to, you know -- I lived on Halsted and Wisconsin. So Halsted and Armitage, to Halsted and Wisconsin. My parents lived on Halsted and Wisconsin, my grandparents lived by the restaurant. So I remember that. Now, the school is not too far from there. So, you know -- JJ: Couple blocks. LN: Yeah, just a couple blocks. But, again, I don’t know if I just wanna believe that we had a protective layer around our block, I don’t remember anything like that. You know? Did it happen? It probably happened a block behind us. But not on the -- where I grew up in. JJ: But you didn’t see it. 38 �LN: I didn’t see it. No. I didn’t see it. And what I’m telling you about the school -- JJ: You didn’t see what the paper was describing. LN: Yeah. What I’m telling you about the school was that that’s what they reported. You know? And I don’t know whether they were talking about Cabrini-Green. I mean, listen, it’s a project, you know what projects are like, you know, you put a bunch of people in a building, what do you think they’re gonna do, you know? I mean, it’s just crazy. And -- JJ: And actually, they were bussing, but actually -- [00:51:00] not bussing, they were giving bus tickets to the people in Cabrini-Green to go to Waller. LN: Is that right? JJ: During that time. LN: Yeah? Wow. JJ: So those people didn’t even live in Waller, but they -- LN: I haven’t read the article in years, but I’m sure that that’s what they talk about, you know, about people coming into the neighborhood. Pero, you know, the stuff that I saw in high school when I went there, it’s not the stuff that I remember seeing on my block. Granted, guys did come by, we would play softball and stuff, but I don’t remember any of the -- and I think it had a lot to do, again, Marcano and Paulita, my grandparents, they were involved. I mean, they were involved in everything we did. They made sure -- I mean, I remember my abuela going to the school, and if there was something, issue, something going on in the community, Abuela was there. They knew Abuela, they knew Paulita Marcano, you know? And every time they would go -- I mean, we’re not saints, you know, 39 �we’d get into trouble at school or something, we didn’t do our homework, or my cousins [00:52:00] would get into a fight or something, Abuela was there. She was always there. And -JJ: (inaudible) Even though she wasn’t asked to man the PTA, she came in and -- LN: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. She was there. Oh, she was there. JJ: (laughs) (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LN: Absolutely, yeah. She was there all the time. And my grand-- and my mom -- JJ: [And the?] other parents? Were they doing that? LN: Other parents were there too, as well. Absolutely. JJ: So the parents were actively involved in the schools. LN: Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. JJ: And with their kids. Is that what you’re saying? LN: Yes. They were -- my grandmother, my mom, were there. I remember other parents as well, too. Being there. And so, maybe it was because they were so involved, and I don’t know if maybe, you know, they would stand up to anything. I mean, as a parent, you would stand up to anybody trying to come into your neighborhood and messing around with your kids’ lives. I mean, I would do it, I’m sure you would too. And I think that’s what they did. And so maybe I was just -I’m thinking about this protective layer because Abuela was there, and parents were involved, and stuff. And maybe they knew, like, “Let’s not mess around in that neighborhood.” (laughs) You know? They didn’t walk around like community watchmen, or [00:53:00] neighborhoods, or anything. They were just 40 �there. They were always involved. And on the block on Halsted, I don’t remember any -- I mean, the competitions we would get into would be like, teams from the south sides of Halsted Street against the north side, playing a game at the clínica. (laughs) You know? The clínica, where there was bases painted on the floors, and then we had -- we would play fast pitching, or we would go to Newberry and play fast pitching against [DeWall?], and, you know, like, “Hey, our team will play your team!” And it was kinda like a mini competition. But it wasn’t ever about us fighting them or anything like that. Or even outsider gangs, or the Kings, or the Gents, or whatever coming over. I think, eventually, later -- but I don’t wanna say, because I didn’t experience it. I didn’t experience none of the gangs coming on Halsted Street. The article did mention about how bad Waller High School was. But I say that because that’s what I read. It’s not what I experienced. And, again, you got people coming in [00:54:00] from everywhere, you know. I could definitely see trouble at the high school. JJ: So why do you think the newspaper would (inaudible) say something like that? Just to sell papers, or? LN: Could be. It could be. (laughs) JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LN: I don’t know. I don’t know why the paper -- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) said, I’m just saying (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LN: I’ll get you the copy, but, you know, I think that -- JJ: What do you think (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) 41 �LN: -- the paper did it because they wanted to document that it was a change, and the high school was changing. They said “cleaned it up”. Again, I only went there for two years, Waller one year, and then it became Lincoln Park -- JJ: And what year was that? LN: ’78. JJ: Seventy (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LN: ’78, ’79, ’79-80. And that’s when it was Lincoln Park. And then I moved to Puerto Rico. I graduated from a high school in Vieques, Puerto Rico. The little island off the coast of Puerto Rico. JJ: Little famous island. LN: Yeah, little famous island. Yeah. With all the US bombing we used to be, not anymore. But I went to high school there for two years. My parents separated, divorced, and I went with my mom. And, I did good, I mean, I spoke Spanish at home. My parents always spoke [00:55:00] Spanish. I speak fluent Spanish. And I adapted. It was tough getting used to, though. It’s a whole different world in Vieques. You know? From growing up in Chicago. And growing up in a big city. JJ: So how was that, going over there? How were you treated? LN: Oh my God, it was a culture shock. Culture shock. JJ: Culture shock? What do you mean? What do you mean? LN: Well, you know, here, you can hang out outside. You know? And you could over there, and you could do so many things, but Vieques, I mean, you think... It’s like going to the campo. And -- 42 �JJ: To the country, okay. LN: Putting you there, where, at seven o’clock at night, everybody’s in bed. This was back in the ’80s. And this is like -- (laughs) That’s how it was. I remember the first day that I got there, we were playing all day, I took a shower, and I put on jeans, and a t-shirt, and socks, and gym shoes. And I went outside, because my brother was outside, my younger brother, my stepbrother was outside. And they’re asking me, “Where are you [00:56:00] going?” And I’m like, “What do you mean, where I’m going? I’m not going anywhere.” He’s like, “Why do you got jeans on?” ’Cause everybody’s got on shorts, you know, chancletas, sandals, and a t-shirt. You know, t-shirts. And here, it looks like I’m going into town, just because I got a jeans and socks and a shirt on. JJ: And shoes. (laughs) LN: And shoes. And it’s like, “Well, where are you -- it’s a weekn-- It’s a school night, like, where are you going?” I’m like, “I’m not going anywhere!” “Well, why are you dressed like that?” I’m like, “How am I supposed to dress like?” You know? But everybody was in shorts, chancletas, ’cause everybody’s just chilling, a couple hours, and then going to bed, ’cause they gotta go to school the next day. And, I mean, we had two channels, three channels. We had channel 2, Telemundo, channel 4, WAPA, and channel 40, which was a cable channel that would come in because a US base was there, so we would get a feed, a very light feed. Three channels. And there’s not much else to do. You got, you know, two, three guys in the house, my parents, I mean, my mom and her husband, [00:57:00] they were sleeping early, ’cause they had to work. But there 43 �was nothing to do, I mean, there’s like, you had a park, but here, when I was in Chicago, you could go with your buddies, you could go here, you could go party here, you know, anywhere. But, you know, in Puerto Rico, it was weird. It was just something different, I mean, we had a small house, there was about six of us in the house. (laughs) It was just a total shock. I adapted well in school because I spoke the language. And of course, anybody who comes from the States to Puerto Rico, they call you Nuyorican. I wasn’t a Nuyorican, I was a Chicagorican. Because that’s where I came from. But because, you know, (Spanish)Gringo [00:57:42]. Because I spoke English, or they knew I came from the States. They knew I wasn’t from there. So, but, I mean, I only lived there for two years. I made great friends. This coming summer we’re having our 30th high school reunion, and, you know, they’re great [00:58:00] people, I mean, they -JJ: So you go there every year for the reunion, or? LN: I don’t go every year, I think the last one I went was for the 25th -- JJ: In Vieques (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LN: In Vieques, yeah. Vieques, yeah. It’s a nice little trip, yeah. JJ: [What?] was the school? [I mean?], was there only one school? LN: There was only one high school. There still is only one high school. (laughs) JJ: Do you remember the name? What’s the name of (inaudible)? LN: Germán Rieckehoff High School. JJ: Okay. 44 �LN: Well, you know what, I think that, but it’s the only high school, they have a junior high s-- JJ: [Germán Enrique?]? LN: Germán Rieckehoff. And I think, Germán Rieckehoff’s son used to be the president of the Puerto Rican Olympic Committee or something. But that’s -Germán Rieckehoff High School, that’s what I remember it being. It’s the only high school in Vieques. And there’s no college or university, you have to go to the mainland, you know, so. And then that’s the other thing, transportation, to get to Vieques you have to take a boat. Or a plane. Plane rides are -- they used to be, I remember, ten bucks. Back then, that was a lot of money. The boat was a dollar, or two dollars, that’s it. So everybody would take the boat. It was a lancha ride, which was a horrible hour-and-a-half ride, ’cause the boats back then were just crazy. JJ: (laughs) [Yeah, they [00:59:00] didn’t work right?]. LN: And then you have to be on the boat, you [can mareaba?], you get seasick. So it was going to a whole different world, man. I mean, you don’t have no TV, very -you can’t do much, there’s not much to do in Vieques, you know. (laughs) JJ: And this was what year? LN: This was 1982, ’83? JJ: And there was no TV or anything? LN: Well, we had a TV, and I think we had three channels, I don’t think we had -- JJ: Oh yeah, you had the three channels. 45 �LN: We had -- no, (inaudible) because they were local channels. I don’t know about cable or anything, you know. Plus we couldn’t afford it. (laughs) Not on my stepfather’s salary. JJ: But your family’s from there? He’s not from there (inaudible) -- LN: No, Mami is from Gurabo, but she’s got an older sister who married one of the pilots that flew from Vieques to Puerto Rico, who fly the planes. So her older sister married this guy, and he’s from Vieques, so when my mom went over there, you know, her only sibling there was her sister. So she went and lived with her sister for a while. And then Mami eventually bought the house down the street, [01:00:00] and that’s how Mami went to Vieques. And that’s where I went to high school, that’s where she was living at the time, so. JJ: So, yeah, ’cause they got the base, I saw that here, but the base (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LN: Mm-hmm. They have two bases, yeah. JJ: So did you interact with those people at all, from the base? LN: With the base people? JJ: Yeah. LN: Oh yeah, my stepfather was a security guard for the base. That was his job. And he would get us in there, you know, to go fishing, crab fishing, (Spanish) [01:00:26] -- JJ: But they had rivers, or something like that? LN: They don’t have rivers, they have little lagoons, and they have other -- he knew those spots, because he was a security guard, and he would roam the areas. 46 �And he would talk, he spoke English, he would talk to the Navy guys, you know, and they would tell him. Some of the guys, they treated him good. And they would tell him, “Oh, you gotta go here,” and, you know, he was a security guard. And so he knew all the spots, so he would get us in there, and we would go to the base. I mean, they had, like, I forget what [01:01:00] they call it, their nightclub or something, and they had, like, music there, and I remember they used to have free movie nights, and they would have this big projector, and then I think, I don’t know if it was once a week or every night, they had a different movie. And they would allow the residents of Vieques to go. The only time you cannot go in the base, I remember, in the two years that I was there, was when they had the maniobra, they had the practice sessions where they would do all the bombing on, you know, one end of the island. Which is interesting, too, because when I was there, I remember being outside of my mom’s house, and feeling the earth move. And I’m like, “Oh, what was that?” And my brother, sister, and my stepbrothers, they were like, “Those are just practice bombs.” I’m like, “Really?” And they would just, you know, the whole island would shake. At least, that was my experience when I was there. I’m like, “Wow!” You know, this -- and that’s when you were not allowed to go on the base because, I guess, security reasons. [01:02:00] You know, obviously, they’re practicing. And they would do their landings in the boats, and shooting, and practice bombings, or whatever. But yeah, we would go in there all the time. I remember the free movie nights, I think we had to bring our own popcorn or buy popcorn from 47 �inside, but the movies were free. You know. (laughs) And, so we, you know, my stepfather mostly interacted with the Navy guys. JJ: But you didn’t actually hear the bombs, it was... LN: I felt them. Yeah, I felt them. JJ: Why wouldn’t you hear them? Were they underground? LN: No, I think it’s because they were far. I mean, you know, Vieques is not a big island, so right in the middle is where the residents live. And I think the practice was way at one of the ends of the island of Vieques. JJ: At the beach? at the beach. LN: So I wouldn’t hear them. I would see the Navy ships, though. If you would go to one of the -- I don’t know if you’ve been to Vieques. Vieques has got some of the most beautiful beaches in the world. JJ: No, I’ve never been (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). LN: It’s really, really pretty. So you would be in Sumbay Beach, which was, we called it Sumbay, but it’s Sun Bay [01:03:00] Beach. Puerto Ricans be calling Sumbay. (laughter) And, you could see the big Navy ships way, way, way in the background. You would see them. You wouldn’t -- I didn’t ever saw them firing. I felt it, when I, like I said, I heard the dun, like, dun, I felt that, but I wouldn’t -- I never saw them, you know. JJ: Was this a regular thing, where you felt that? LN: Oh, yeah. Every time they did the practice, you know. Once -- it’s like living next to a train. I remember we lived here, next to a train a while, and you hear the loud noise initially, but then after a while you just become oblivious to it. 48 �JJ: You get used to it. Bom, bom -- LN: Yeah, and so -- JJ: Yeah. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LN: -- initially when I first heard the bombs -- Yeah, you know, I felt it, I’m like, “Wow.” And then after that, you would hear ’em, whenever they would practice. I forgot how frequent they would practice. But after that, I didn’t hear ’em anymore. Again, it’s like, probably I just got used to them. And that’s why I said I don’t know how often they would practice. But yeah, Vieques was definitely an [01:04:00] experience. Very beautiful island. My sister still lives there. She works for Vieques Air Link, she’s one of the receptionists. ’Cause she speaks perfect English, you know? And Spanish. JJ: Air Link, Airlines? LN: Vieques Air Link. JJ: Air Link, Air Link. Okay. LN: Yeah. L-I-N-K. JJ: So is that the airport, or something? LN: That’s the airline there. JJ: Airline. LN: They have several, but one of them, the guy who founded it, his name was Valdo. But he came up with the initials VAL, you know, Vieques Air Link, and those are his initials for his name, so, and, so my sister works there. She still lives there. So I go there every chance I get, I’ll go there. It’s a very beautiful island. But I can only handle two or three days of that tranquility. Beautiful. If 49 �you ever wanna go there and just not hear anything. And just sit by the beach, which is what I do. One or two days is good. (laughs) JJ: So today you don’t hear the bombs, is that what you’re saying, or? LN: Oh yeah, they stopped bombing years ago. I think they got the Navy out of there. I wanna say, I forget when, in the ’90s I think. ’90, ’91, or something like that. They had the big [01:05:00] protest, all those mass arrests, all the congressmen and politicians -- JJ: (inaudible) LN: Was it Clinton that got -- I think it was Clinton, right? JJ: I’m not sure (inaudible) LN: One of them, yeah. But it was -- JJ: But I think it was around 2000. LN: It was ninety-- Yeah, you know, that must be right. Yeah. JJ: That year. LN: Yeah, it was -- JJ: ’99 or 2000, something like that. LN: But it’s very -- you don’t hear none of that anymore, you know, you don’t. It’s just, you know, Google it and you’ll see some of the -- it’s really -- JJ: ’Cause you’ve been back afterwards. LN: Oh, yeah, plenty of times. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) place is more tranquil? LN: Oh, yeah. Every time I go, I -- we’ve gone for Christmas, and, you know, it’s 80 degrees out there, and my mom thinks it’s cold. 50 �JJ: And Christmas is the same as the rest of the Puerto Rico there, of course. LN: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I’ll go -- I wanna go -- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LN: I wanna go to the beach, you know. I wanna go to the beach and just hang out. And my mom’s like, “It’s too cold!” I’m like, “Mom! I come from Chicago.” (laughter) “You know how cold it is in Chicago? I wanna go hang out at the beach! I don’t care if it’s 50 degrees! I’m going to the beach. I can’t come to Puerto Rico and not come to the beach.” And [01:06:00] Mami’s so protective, like, “Oh, no te vayas, stay here with the kids, watch the ocean, watch the waves.” You know, the beach is so beautiful, you can walk, literally, for about 100 feet and you will never go deeper than this here. And then the water’s so warm, to me, it is. And clear as day. Pretty, pretty. But, you know, my mom’s like, “Oh, don’t go out there!” But, you know, Puerto Rican women, to her, she’ll prepare me a lunch bag, like, you know, [jata?], she’ll boil the [jatas?], and do the bread, the whole thing. (Spanish) [01:06:31] She’ll make it for me. And then she wants to know what I want for dinner. (laughter) That night. Right after I had breakfast. You know? (laughter) And she’s always protective. But no, I gotta go to the beach, and just hang out. It’s so pretty, if you get a chance, go and visit. Stay for a couple days, stay as long as you want. Not much of a nightlife there, you know, if you want the nightlife you gotta go to San Juan, pero, Vieques is [01:07:00] very pretty, very quiet. It is a whole different world, and I think now that I’m older, I appreciate it. I’m like, “Man, you know, that’s not a bad little island to go to.” Not so when you’re a teenager, you know, born and raised in 51 �Chicago and you wanna go party and hang out with your boys all the time, you know. (laughter) But I grew up -- I thank my grandparents, I always will. And maybe some of the guys that I grew up with and their parents. They were all always involved in our lives. I have a bunch of friends that I grew up with who are Chicago police guys, detectives now, I have friends who are lawyers, I have friends who are doctors, all from the neighborhood. And that’s a rarity, I think. You know. Because we weren’t given much of a chance, I think, I mean, and even through life, I’m sure everybody’s faced their own discrimination to some extent. But could you imagine if we [01:08:00] would’ve been given an opportunity? If we would’ve been accepted more? I mean, I’m just giving you a sampling of the guys that I know. There’s those guys that went the other way, who never got that chance, for whatever reason. They got involved with other things. But the guys that I grew up with? Those guys are -- they’re like my brothers, they’re friends for life, and I think that, you know, my parents and my grandmother and my grandfather were always involved in our lives. That allowed us to continue to know that education was key. And you gotta stay in school, and all that stuff, you know. And the guys, again, I mean, you hear stories about guys, and you go to west side Chicago. Oh yeah, they can tell you how many of their friends have died through gang fight, through gun -JJ: You’re talking about, like, Humboldt Park and stuff like that. LN: No, I’m talk-- I mean west side, I mean -- JJ: And west side. 52 �LN: Even Humboldt Park, you know, west side or even further west, like getting closer to Austin. And you have kids, kids that are barely teenagers -- JJ: ’Cause they were the Puerto Ricans right now, or is that what you’re saying? LN: [01:09:00] No, yeah, most of them are there. But I’m just saying that, you know, the kids out there will tell you, “Hey, I have, I know five or six of my friends who are dead.” Because of gang fights or whatever. The guys that I grew up with, you know, none. I can’t -- I don’t know any one of my friends who were killed in some tragedy like that. The guys that I grew up with. We had a good upbringing in the neighborhood. You know? That whole community on Halsted Street was a good community. I mean, I can go on and on and on about the guys that I know, about what they did. Eventually, you know, some of those guys moved out west, and I think there’s a bigger -- there’s a lot of Puerto Ricans in Humboldt Park, you know that. We bought our building in Humboldt Park, you know. When we moved out of there, I think I lived in Logan Square for one year, and again, the rent was, like, crazy. I had started working already, so I could afford a bigger apartment, but then after a while, I’m like, you know, the rent -- that building got sold, to a Spanish guy, but he wanted to jack the rent up 150 bucks, I’m like, [01:10:00] “I can’t pay 950 for a two-bedroom apartment.” And I looked, and I’m like, “I could pay a mortgage for 100 more dollars.” So we bought a building in Humboldt Park, a three-flat. Which we still have to this day. Maybe it’s because I’m thinking, “I’m not selling!” (laughs) I’m not selling because I know what happened to Halsted Street, you know, when these guys had a house that they bought for 10,000, somebody came and offered them 100 and now 53 �they’re gone. Humboldt Park’s changing too. I mean, you could see it if you go there. When I moved in, then, it was a whole different neigh-- it wasn’t Halsted Street. Humboldt Park, when I lived there, when I bought it in 1992, ’93, was definitely, you know, a different world than from what I grew up in Halsted. You’re talking gangs that I would see. You could see the guy smoking weed on the street. You know. Humboldt Park was definitely a different world from the Hals-JJ: And what year was this? LN: This was ’90s. In the ’90s. JJ: In the ’90s. LN: Yeah. JJ: You know, they were similar to Halsted in the beginning. LN: Is that right? JJ: Yeah, [01:11:00] that was a change during that time. LN: Yeah. Well, (inaudible) JJ: That I recall. But I -- LN: No, no, no, and that’s good. JJ: That’s what you recall. LN: Exactly, I mean, that’s what I remember from my Halsted. My Halsted -- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) you saw gangs, and (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LN: My Halsted Street, I didn’t see -- I mean, again, we saw some of that, but not on the block that I grew up. Humboldt Park, when I moved, that was -- I mean, there 54 �you saw it everywhere. Everywhere. I mean, you still see it today. Not as much, but you still s-JJ: So it wasn’t, like, really, like, a close-knit community, or anything. LN: I don’t think so. But I’m talking about, I had just moved into Humboldt Park. I knew that Puerto Ricans lived there... JJ: So how was it not? LN: Well, the block that I live in, and I tell people, it’s, like, probably one of the best kept secrets in Humboldt Park. It’s a dead end street, no pun intended, but it’s Thomas Street that butts up against an alley. It’s not a through street where you have cars driving in all the way all the time. You don’t have drive-bys on that block, you know. When I moved in, yeah, you had your guys that were, you know, you could tell who’s who, and who’s probably trouble, and who’s in a gang, [01:12:00] and who wasn’t. I fit in, ’cause I was Puerto Rican, and my wife’s Puerto Rican, and, you know, we lived on the block with a bunch of Puerto Ricans. And you saw families -- JJ: What is your wife’s name? Is that okay? LN: Flor. Flor Neris. JJ: Flor. LN: Yeah. JJ: (inaudible) (laughs) LN: Yeah, Flor Neris. And we lived on the block, and it was just her and I, and we had the building, and we rented the two apartments, and it helped us pay for the mortgage. 55 �JJ: And you have kids, too, or? LN: Now I have kids, yeah. JJ: What are their names? First names -- LN: Jeneli, Jaidelis, and Luis. Again, I gotta follow family tradition. My papi’s Angel -actually, Papi’s Angel Luis, I’m Angel Luis also. And my son is Luis Angel. I kinda changed it up a little bit. But yeah, I have the three kids now, pero, but Hal- Humboldt Park was different because you had, I didn’t know the families. I mean, I was already an adult. And then, you’re the new kid on the block, moving in. You know, you’ll make friends. I mean, I met Don Vicente from across the street, I met Eliot next door who works for the IRS. (laughs) Vicente’s wife works for the school, my buddy Leon down the [01:13:00] street is a retired police officer, his wife was a schoolteacher. So you met those people and you got good people on the block, and it’s a really good block. Some people rent, you know, and you have your Section 8 folks living in the neighborhood, and you have other people who don’t care much for what they rent, or maybe the owner doesn’t care as long as he’s getting his rent, who don’t live in the building. I don’t live in my building either. Listen, I don’t wanna say, “Hey,” I’m not gonna start throwing any stones. But I’m a little bit more picky when it comes to my tenants. I would rather have somebody who’s gonna pay me less, but have a good tenant, as opposed to jacking the rent up, where, you know, who knows who I’m gonna get just because I want 100 extra bucks. You know. I pass by my building all the time, it’s like I live there, so my tenants know. You know? And they’re good, the people on the block, they’re kinda watching out. I think it still needs time, you 56 �know, it still needs time. Humboldt Park is not that idyllic, great neighborhood [01:14:00] that you have -- I mean, listen, anywhere you go, you’re gonna get in trouble. Trouble can find you anywhere. Whether you live in Lincoln Park, whether you live in Wicker Park, whether you live in Humboldt Park, it’s gonna find you. The block that I live in? It’s different from Lincoln Park, it’s just that I didn’t grow up there, and although we’ve had the building 20-plus years, you know, I like to believe that it’s a nice little block. Not too far from Haddon, which is where one of the Calistos lives. (laughs) And then you have the other side of the park. And I haven’t gone to much of the other side of the park, ’cause I lived, you know, Kedzie and Thomas is where the building is at. JJ: You’re on Kedzie and Thomas? LN: Yeah. But, you know, it’s a great neighborhood. I loved it. The only reason I moved out was because of what I do. You know, I wanted the big house. I wanted the big backyard. I didn’t have a backyard in Humboldt Park, I had an alley. (laughs) And a two-car brick garage. I want my kids to [01:15:00] play outside, I want my kids to grow up in a nice, safe neighborhood. Again, anywhere it can find you, but the neighborhood where I live now, it’s kinda like that neighborhood where everybody watches you. It’s amazing. When I went to -- they had a meeting at the school up in Oriole Park in Chicago. How, there were some reports about gang recruiting at Oriole Park. Which is unheard of, it’s a neighborhood where you have just a bunch of professionals living. You know, it’s unheard of, gang recruiting. And they had a meeting, they sent a letter out to all the parents, and I went to this meeting. And it was just amazing, the number 57 �of people that came to that meeting. The parents in the neighborhood. It overflowed. It was just incredible. And I’m like, “Wow!” And this was when I had just first moved in the neighborhood. Had that happened, you know, back in the neighborhood, very few parents showed up. I know I remember the parents from my block being at the PTA meetings, or the [01:16:00] meeting with the police commander of the area, but over there, it’s because so many people were involved, and I’m like, “Wow!” This is good, it’s a good thing, you know? You’re getting involved with the neighborhood. It was good. And so, it’s a nice neighborhood. I mean, I’m giving my kids an opportunity, and it’s okay with me. Now, after they’re gone, I mean, I’d probably move back to Humboldt Park, I kinda like Humboldt Park, you know? There’s a difference between -- I’ll never forget the first night we lived in our house. I’m looking out the window, and my wife tells me, “What are you doing? Que te hace (Spanish) Puertorriqueno.” [01:16:34] [01:16:35] I’m like, “This is too quiet, it’s eerily quiet.” You know, in Humboldt Park, you look out the window, people, “Ay, (inaudible)!” They’re screaming and stuff, bom bom, you know? Neighborhood where I live is like, “This is crazy, it’s too quiet, man!” (laughter) Like, “No!” Anyway, it’s just a different neighborhood, you know? And then, maybe I’m coming full circle, coming to the neighborhood. ’Cause the neighborhood where we have, we don’t have parrandas. But [01:17:00] we have walks. (laughs) For Christmas. In the neighborhood, it’s crazy, it’s mostly an Anglo neighborhood. Very few Puerto Rican families. But we make coquito for Christmas. And the entire block wants it. They have street party -- street -- 58 �JJ: What’d you put in -- LN: Block parties. JJ: What’d you put in the juice? (laughter) LN: Hey -- JJ: [Mixed up?]. LN: Exacto. They have block parties. In the summer. It’s great, I mean, you have the entire neighborhood come out. They do stuff for the kids, they do a bike parade at 12:00, they got music, they got, you know, jumping things, they got, the pump is open, it’s, like, awesome. And my wife makes limber. And the kids, little Anglo kids, come over and they want more and more, Flor makes batches of ’em, and they absolutely love it. And, you know, when we had the Christmas walk, similar to our [01:18:00] parranda, they’re caroling here, but it’s just a couple of families, you know, about, almost half the block did it, and you get three houses. That one house, you know, you’re at the Johnsons’ house from 7:00 to 8:00. You’re at the Gonzalezes’ house from 8:00 till 9:00. And it’s just hors d’oeuvres, just hanging out, adults only. And they just walk, you know, from house to house. No music, but you’re just hanging out, and it’s kinda cool. We made the ponche coquito one year, and they absolutely loved it, so now every year, we gotta do it. You know. And they loved it. It’s our culture mixing with their culture, and it’s a good mesh. We get along, I love all my neighbors, absolutely. And it’s that neighborhood that I remember from when I was growing up, that maybe protective little block on Halsted Street. That, you know, probably my parents and my grandmother, or my grandparents, saw the trouble, but they kinda 59 �shielded it away from us, and now we’re in a neighborhood where it’s [01:19:00] kinda something similar, and anybody who’s suspicious that comes in the neighborhood, I mean, first of all, you’d have to be crazy, ’cause nothing but cops and firemen live up there. You know? (laughs) Does it happen? Absolutely. I tell you, trouble will find you anywhere. And, you know, it just -- today’s life, so. JJ: And, can you kind of, in general, describe the type of work that you do? You said fraud? -- LN: Yeah, I do investigative work for -- JJ: I mean, if it’s okay to describe, I don’t wanna (inaudible) LN: I’d just like to keep it general. (laughs) JJ: Yeah, just keep it general. LN: Yeah, just general. Yeah, we just investigate white-collar crime. Yeah, and, you know, it’s a good job. JJ: Like businesses, or? LN: Businesses, individuals, you know, you name it. Yeah. Pretty much, you know, it’s, today’s day and age, politicians, whatever. JJ: Okay, so there’s -- is there a lot more today or something? That became a business now, now that becomes a -- fraud is a business, or? LN: Oh, absolutely. I mean, I got job security for my -- JJ: I’m not trying to (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LN: No -- JJ: I’m not trying to (inaudible) I’m just trying to -- 60 �LN: No, I mean, [01:20:00] there’s some work out there to be done. I mean, again, it’s nothing new. It’s just that, you know, with the economy nowadays, people get a lot more creative. You know? (laughter) We just gotta keep up with technology. I mean, we got a lot of resources that are disposable, and it’s just, fraud is always gonna be around, you know. I mean, listen, we live in Chicago, I think, I don’t know if state of Illinois still has the title of the most corrupt state in the nation, you know, it’s just... I think it’s just that they get caught. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LN: Everybody does it, I think everybody does it -- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) [couple going or something?] -- LN: (laughs) I think we have the state where people get caught. I mean, I think it happens everywhere, you know. So, but yeah, it’s an interesting line of work, something -- JJ: So you actually are investigating this kind of thing? LN: Not this thing, but fraud. (laughter) JJ: No, no, I just -- LN: No, you make it sound like -- no, I’m not investigating anything here. JJ: I mean the fraud, [I mean?] you’re investigating fraud, that’s what I mean. LN: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, mostly white-collar stuff, yeah. So anything to do with white-collar. (laughter) [01:21:00] I’d like to keep it at that, you know, so. And it’s interesting, though, and it’s interesting, though. JJ: Some final thoughts, what do you think we need to really stress about Marcano, like, your life -- 61 �LN: Yeah, you know what, again, you asked me for my Lincoln Park, and I gave you what I remember. I was just a kid there. You know. If, you know, you’re smart enough, you can figure this how you want it to go, and I think you’re on the right track. What I would like, though, is the stuff that Marcano left for me. Because he was a good man. He was. And he meant to do well. And he left the stuff for me... I have it, I’m glad I had the conversation with Freddy Calisto not too long ago, because we were [01:22:00] talking about it and I said, “Hey, I got a bunch of stuff at the house, man. You know? And it’s just sitting there.” And I couldn’t get rid of it, because Marcano left it for me. He specifically told me, “You (inaudible) I’m gonna leave this for you, ’cause I know,” you know, he left it to me for a reason. And I don’t know if maybe, just, fate that you... Freddy knew about what you were doing, and I had the stuff, and you know, we’re coming together. And I got the pictures at the house, I wanna make sure that you get, because I think his story needs to be told, and there’s no better story that you’re gonna get than from the tapes and the audios. ’Cause there’s audios here, of everything he did, you got a lot of work here, man. (laughs) You know? There’s a lot of -countless hours of tape, and you got música, he’s got everything in there. And I think this is probably something that’s gonna, you know, do your project good. And again, I -- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) the best thing that we could do is to make it public for the (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LN: Absolutely, absolutely. And again, you know, listen, I -- 62 �JJ: For research -- other researchers, and other people that (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LN: Absolutely. If they ever need to [01:23:00] get in touch with me, you know, I’ll give you whatever I remember. If I can find stuff at home, some more, I, you know, I think it’s a -- when he passed away, I thought it was a shame that he didn’t -- it did not get played more here, in Chicago. Because he was a pillar here. He was a pillar of the community. You’ll see for yourself, when you see the tapes, if you get a chance to see the tapes, and see the pictures and stuff, the kinda stuff that he did. I mean, he got black and white photos, that I have at home, and I apologize I didn’t get them to you, but I’m gonna definitely make sure. I’m off today, so I’m gonna get home, start getting the pictures, putting ’em on a disc, and I’ll definitely make sure you get ’em, ’cause I think it’s important. This is perfect, this is perfect, what you’re doing. Especially, like, the Lincoln Park community, you know, it’s like. So that’s what I would like. I mean, you know, he’s the one that deserved the credit. I was just, you know, again, part of the Puerto Rican mom and dad that came here, looking for a [01:24:00] better life. JJ: Well, that’s important, so that it’s a, oral histories of different people, so. LN: Yeah, absolutely. JJ: And you’re familiar with that being, you know, going through the college scene and all that, so. LN: Yeah, absolutely. So, yeah, he -- JJ: So you know what we’re doing, I mean, it’s clear what we’re trying to do. 63 �LN: Good. And I’m glad, I’m thankful for that, because it’s almost like a forgotten story. And I don’t know if anybody’s taken time to document it, you know, and obviously you’re doing it -- Marcano did, but he wasn’t around long enough to make sure that -- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) Way before that. LN: -- to make sure that -- JJ: Way before we even thought about documenting, he was doing it, so that’s really great. LN: Yeah, yeah, exactly. JJ: That’s what’s great about that. LN: That’s what I said, and it’s funny, I made that analogy about the wire thing. He made camellos for the Three Kings Day. He made a lechón, I remember he called it El Batey, the restaurant was called El Batey, and he made un lechón en una varita, and the pig was made out of wire and covered in some fabric that he colored brown to make it look like an actual pig, with an apple in its mouth, and, you know, [01:25:00] and the two sticks. I mean, it’s -- I think there’s a picture, at home, of the restaurant, you know. (laughs) He made the stuff, it was just crazy, just to think that I was driving the other day and I thought about the snowmen and the reindeers that are being made and being sold in stores. Stuff he was making (laughs) way back when. And documenting the stuff, you know? Documenting it. And I’m glad that I got an opportunity to meet you and that, you know, hopefully this -- JJ: Appreciate it. 64 �LN: -- will have some stuff for you guys that will help you get along in your project, man. I really do. I really do. JJ: I appreciate it. Thank you very much. I appreciate it. LN: No problem. Anytime. END OF VIDEO FILE 65 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5d4496b6234c5647994459293151e198.mp4 dacd1107d6455c29107f2001ac76368c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Luis Neris vídeo entrevista y biografía Descripción Spanish language Description entry La historia oral de Luis Neris, entrevistado por Jose 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez el 12/14/2012 acerca de los Young Lords en Lincoln Park. Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Mexicano-Americanos--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Mexico-Americanos--Illinois--Chicago--Condiciones sociales Relaciones raciales Conflicto social Identitad cultural Partido Pantera Negra. Illinois Capí­tulo Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Neris_Luis Title A name given to the resource Luis Neris video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Neris, Luis Description An account of the resource Oral history of Luis Neris, interviewed by Jose 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez, on 12/14/2012 about the Young Lords in Lincoln Park. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jimenez, Jose, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Mexican Americans--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Mexican Americans--Illinois--Chicago--Social conditions Race relations Social conflict Cultural identity Black Panther Party. Illinois Chapter Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-12-14 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1559f08573cc574159834a3b670bcd35.mp4 16a7e633638775607ed60c68f8237c49 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/410a301021f6b15ed74dc68282ecc9ff.pdf d1f98afab233c4f55f6e4c75fb7c0027 PDF Text Text ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW DR. GARY LULENSKI Born: Resides: Interviewed by: Richard Massa, for the GVSU Veterans History Project, Transcribed by: Joan Raymer, January 3, 2014 I’m Dr. Gary Lulenski, Vietnam veteran. 1970-1971, I was stationed in Chu Lai, Vietnam as a medical company commander. Interviewer: Today is Thursday, November 19th 2009, and we are at Lake Michigan College in Benton Harbor, Michigan. The interviewee, as I mentioned, is Dr. Gary Lulenski, and the camera operator is Bill Langbehn, and the interviewer is Richard Massa. We are performing this interview as part of the Veterans History Project being conducted by Grand Valley State University in Allendale, Michigan. 1:02 Interviewer: Gary, what branch of the service? I was in the United States Infantry and I was what was referred to as an obligatory volunteer, because in medical school if I hadn’t been willing to sign up for some active duty time, then the directors of the programs for training, called residency, they would be disinclined to look favorably upon you, because then you might get drafted and taken right out of the middle of the year. You were one of few, and very much needed, so I signed up in 1966 to into the very program after part of my training was completed. Interviewer: Did you finish your medical training and then go into the service? No, I finished medical school, a year of internship and a year of surgical residency. 2:03 Those were granted without much problem. If you really wanted to spend another three or four years becoming a fully trained surgeon, like I am, then you would have to enter a 1 �sort of lottery system where about one out of twenty physicians, who attempted to get that deferment, only a few received it. Interviewer: Now, was part of your medical training, schooling, covered by the GI Bill after serving? That’s a good question. After I returned from active duty I had four more years of training. I didn’t know it when I went in, but I was eligible for some portion of my—my income came from the GI Bill for educational purposes, so for those four years I did receive some additional payments. Interviewer: You entered the military program and what, and where, was your military training? 3:05 At that time all the physicians, medical corps, the physicians were all in the medical corps, and then the medical service corps, who were, basically, the executive officers and the right hand people for the medical corps officers, and the veterinarians and the nurses, we all went to Fort Sam Houston, San Antonio, Texas, so I had a basic training course there for six weeks. Interviewer: After that did you go directly to Vietnam? I think I went home for a few days. That was a while ago, a few years ago, and I think I went home for a few days, but I went from Cleveland, Ohio to Tacoma Air Force Base and from Tacoma to—stopped in Anchorage, stopped in Guam, and then on to Bien Hoa airfield in Saigon. 4:01 Interviewer: Were you married or single at the time? I was married and I had one small boy, Jeffery, and they stayed in Cleveland. Interviewer: Do you remember arriving in the country? 2 �Yeah, I do remember arriving and getting g in country. Even though it was so long ago, of course we’ve had our course going on this and it helps to revive memories and I hope more good than bad. But, flying into Bien Hoa and sitting with some other physicians, and some enlisted men and officers, someone in the row next to me said, “Well, I hope this is better than the last time, because the last time that I came over here there were rockets coming into the airports and we had to get off the plane and go directly into bunkers”. I’m thinking, “Oh, this can’t be, I can’t be here and have to go down some chute and go into a bunker”. 5:02 We landed without a problem, but in 1968, during the Tet Offensive, and afterwards, the Bien Hoa airport took not only rocket attacks, but mortars and sappers. That guy was not making it up, he was telling the truth. Interviewer: What rank were you when you arrived? I was a Captain when I arrived, because during the Vietnam War you were given credit for time in service for your medical training. In my case that was four years of medical school, and two years of post-graduate school, so I was given the rank of Captain and I was considered to have six years in the service. My father was in the same position as medical corps company commander as I was, but then in the 2nd World War they didn’t give credit for your training. 6:00 Interviewer: What was your position? Were you a company medical corps commander, or a person who worked for someone else? No, I was a company commander. My MOS directed me to be in charge of a company of a hundred and forty men, as opposed to a general medical officer who would be assigned to a firebase. We had about thirty general medical officers and they were out in the middle of the jungle on a hill, so I was in a division area where we had a very secure 3 �perimeter. We were on the South China Sea and I was in charge of the company. How they expected me to know what to do with a hundred and forty people, some of them who were half crazy, and how they expected me to do that with six weeks of learning, I don’t know. Interviewer: You were not in any area where your medical facilities came under direct fire? 7:00 There were rocket attacks during the 1970-1971 period, but no significant mortar attacks, no significant attacks by units and we didn’t have any significant explosions caused by sappers. We had two fixed hospitals and I assisted surgery at each of those to some extent, and then I had a dispensary with two other physicians. I was in charge of daily care for soldiers in the Americal [23rd] Division. Then we had an inpatient facility for those wounded and were going to have what was called delayed primary closure. A soldier that was wounded with shrapnel did not go to the hospital and have those wounds closed up right away, unless they were life threatening. So, one of my responsibilities was to decide when, and how, to help those wounded. We also had an extensive inpatient rehabilitation unit with two fulltime, fully trained psychiatrists, and they lived right next to me. 8:00 So, we had all kinds of people, sentries, motor pool people, and they had the division surgeon and his staff just on the next little hill—we had all kinds of people. Interviewer: Could you describe a typical day and what a typical day would be like? Well, we had sick call every morning except Sunday, and one of the three doctors would be assigned to morning sick call. One of the doctors would be available the rest of the day for any type of urgent or emergency problems. One of the doctors would make 4 �rounds in the hospital, in our hospital, not the big hospital. In our units, where we had malaria victims too and, in fact, quite a few, so one physician would be in charge of those patients and if there was some decision about doing surgery, then if it wasn’t myself who had made the rounds and it was one of the other two general medical officers, they would ask me whether I concurred, or what we would do. 9:11 So, the afternoon, often times, was surgery and then there was a physician on call in the evening and we all strayed, basically, in the division rear. I had my own Jeep, but Chu Lai, even in 1970, was not a place you wanted to go, so I never did take my Jeep out of the division area. I could have, but I chose not to. Interviewer: Were there cases of more serious injuries that came to your facility? No, the more serious ones would go the 312th Evacuation Hospital, which was a big hospital. Every specialty of physician, or at least every specialty of surgical trained physician, was available at the 312th Evac Hospital. 10:02 Then the 27th surgical Hospital, those were the places where there were not only military casualties, but often times where civilian casualties would be taken. My role was to help take care of those that didn’t require immediate surgery, didn’t have any abdominal wounds, didn’t have any broken limbs, so mostly those were what we call soft tissue injuries, and many of those soldiers were able to return to duty and we didn’t have anybody that was really getting sick, or was having something bad happen. If that were to happen we were supposed to transfer that patient to one of the two bigger facilities. Interviewer: Did you ever have occasion to treat any of our service people who had been prisoners of war? 5 �No, I don’t think we had any prisoners of war. We certainly didn’t have any assigned to my company and I don’t think in the division rear. 11:07 There may have been some— the troops from out in the jungle, they would come to us if they were advised to by the general medical officer, or if they were close to our division area. Some of them may have been prisoners of war, but I don’t recall sitting down and talking with anybody that said, “This is my second tour of duty and the first time I had to spend some time with the Vietcong, because they captured me”. I don’t remember any conversation like that. Interviewer: Did the enemy avoid, or in any way attempt to target medical facilities? That’s a difficult question. I know that the answer in 1968 and 1969 was yes. I think by the time I was there, the attitude of the enemy was just sort of “hold in place”. 12:05 So, we had rockets come in and one of the rockets, actually, did hit the Air Force clinic, which was the same as mine. It wasn’t, though, intended specifically, that was just at the airfield and unfortunately that rocket hit the building and didn’t destroy any planes and didn’t impact the runway, but it sure did make a mess of the clinic. Interviewer: Did your facility treat enemy combatants? No, we did not---there were specific rules and regulations for treating any combatants and they had to be treated at a facility like the 312th where they had military police and security personnel. We didn’t have any military police; we had sentries, but not a unit. 13:05 During your time there, were you able to communicate regularly with your family at home? 6 �We had a pretty good system called the WATS system, and you’d have to walk over to this hill, which had all of its telecommunications towers on it, and then you would sort of take a number and sit in line, and most of the time, if you were patient, and, of course, I would do that on a day that I wasn’t assigned to sick call, or wasn’t assigned to morning call, and if you waited there, usually you could get through. When that rocket attack occurred, unfortunately, the way it was presented in the United States, including to my family, was that the army outpatient facility had been struck by a rocket and the physician and all ten other people in the facility were dead, so my family thought that was me. 14:04 I found out that’s the way it had been delivered, so that day I went to the WATS facility and tried to do whatever I could do to get ahead, beg and plead, so I could let my wife and father and mother know that I was not in the facility that had been struck by a rocket. Unfortunately, I had to go and pronounce all those people dead. That was one of the things I had to do and that was very unattractive to do that every third day, graves registration. Interviewer: Other than that, which was a memorable experience, do you have any other specific things that stand out? Well, by the time I was in Vietnam, we had terrible trouble with drug abuse. 15:04 That’s why our rehab facility was full, that’s why we had so many enlisted, and even some officers, being discharged on what was called a two twelve general discharge, and many of them had been involved with drug use and were considered unfit to remain on active duty, so I would have to go and do the physical exam that would precede their being dismissed. About everything happened, we had fraggings, we had some grenades thrown in the first sergeant's office, we had guys drive their trucks off the road, we had 7 �people shooting weapons in my company area. There were a lot of strange, memorable things that happened, but I guess I look back upon it, mostly, as the good part of it. 16:03 Most of the time it was comfortable, peaceful and maybe even boring, in the rear area. But, when it was bad, when it was terrifying, it was still really terrifying, like in 1968, everywhere. Interviewer: Did you have a feeling there were enough supplies, food, facilities for self-sanitation? Yes, I think that the people involved in supply did a terrific job. We always—we had our own staff, we had two full time cooks and some assistants and they did good work. It was a little interesting—I found out later in the year, when I went to Da Nang a couple of times, and when I went to Saigon to present this drug survey I had conducted, I saw all these people eating steak and I’ll tell you, we never saw a steak in my company. 17:04 So, here I was in the Americal Division, so I knew there was some filtration going on there, but we had excellent supplies, people, and I think that, as a group, we were very grateful to those people and even the maintenance people did a great job. If we had a truck break down, it wouldn’t take long and it would be fixed. Interviewer: What ways did you find to relieve the stress of all your experiences? Well, when I got there my medical service officer told me that they had plans to build a basketball court and I thought, “Well that’s a good thing to do”, and then a couple of days later I saw these bags of cement coming in and a couple of days later these guys in my company started putting up wooden frames and started making cement. 18:00 Somewhere along the line I asked my medical service officer, I said, “Well, where did you get all that cement?” Well, you understand he didn’t really have an answer for that 8 �and I kind of figured it out later on and I think that’s where some of our steaks went, but we did get the basketball court done. Then the Marine Air Group, MAG 12 had been into—left before I got there, but the Marines, they were dedicated to taking good care of themselves, including exercise. So, they had a racquetball, paddleball, squash, handball court made out of concrete, solid wood floors, brick walls, and I played a lot of handball. I played enough handball to have my hands get kind of pulverized, but I had one of our medical service executive officers, a wonderful guy, and he liked to play handball. 19:00 He found out that I could be teachable, so we played a lot of handball and we had good facilities. I think, probably, the people out on our firebases, I don’t know what they did to break up the tension and do something physical. We had lots of room and the firebases were just small little tops of hills and bunkers, wires, sentries, and I don’t know what those troops did to keep themselves fit, except, of course, they went out into the jungle, but we had good exercise facilities. We could swim in the ocean too and we did that fairly frequently. It was safe by the time that I was there and I don’t know if they would have done that in 1968. Interviewer: At the firebases were the medical facilities adequately protected? 20:00 Every firebase had a bunker protected clinic and the way that medevac was done, at least About through time that I knew what was going on, and that would be 1967. I had a good friend of mine who was in Vietnam as a combat commander and I learned some more from him. The firebases all had bunker protected, underground facilities where they could provide some even units of blood, do some things to triage, or stabilize, a wounded soldier, because unless it was clear that the wounded soldier had to go 9 �immediately to one of the major hospitals, he was usually taken to the firebase, because it was much closer, and would be stabilized there, given plasma, given whatever was appropriate, and then a medevac helicopter would take those wounded soldiers to the division rear. 21:11 Some of the soldiers that were taken out of the jungle, and out of combat, they were not flown in by medevac helicopters, because they were flown in by whatever helicopter pilot was bold and brave enough to go out and go there. I got to know some of those guys, because I flew around doing the drug survey—a different breed of people. Interviewer: Did you visit some of the firebase medical facilities on occasion? I visited all the firebases, all thirty one of them, because I did this drug survey, and I had a responsibility to go out there and support the doctors anyway, so I did a lot of flying in helicopters, but I decided, with two enlisted men who had been out in the My Lai area and we were talking about how bad the drug problem was, and they were saying, “Yeah, it really was”, so we decided, “Well, let’s find out how bad”, so we began to do a questionnaire. 22:07 These two guys were social workers and they knew statistics and I had majored in Psychology, so I knew statistics, so we put together a questionnaire and we distributed it. We had fourteen thousand soldiers in the Americal Division. We had about seven thousand respond and that was good information, and because of that I flew around a lot more. Interviewer: What did the survey show? During the winter of 1970 and the spring of 1971, about thirty to thirty-five percent of enlisted personnel in the rear supply, maintenance type areas, admitted to more than just occasionally. 23:05 They admitted to frequent, or habitual drug use of illegal drugs. 10 �The number of officers was less, but still pretty significant. About ten percent of the questionnaires filled out by troops that were in the field, admitted to frequent use of one or more of the illegal drugs that were available. So, when that was done, we summarized the data and I discussed it with the division surgeon and he kind of was confused. He said, “Well, alright”, and he looked it over and he said, “Well okay, let’s go talk with the division General”, so we did and he kind of, “Hmm”, and I don’t think he knew what to say, really, so a couple of days later he called me and the division surgeon back and he told the division surgeon, “I want this Captain Lulenski to present this material”. 24:05 I said, “Well, yes sir”, and he said, “I mean I want you to go out on MACV headquarters and present this material”, so I did. It was good that we were beginning to leave, because it seemed like the drug problem was overwhelming. We even had LSD sent in from the states and being used. We had two frightening episodes where it was clear that two of our soldiers had been sent LSD and they were completely blown away and they had thrown grenades. That made some of their comrades nervous enough that they turned these guys in to CID and then those two guys, they just disappeared. Interviewer: What drugs were the most used? Well, of course, the most used, or you could say the most used drug was marijuana, because it was so prevalent. 25:07 But, the problem in Vietnam was you weren’t sure what was in it. There was opium, heroin, barbiturates, methamphetamine, cocaine and hallucinogens, and of course, the largest producer of opium in the world then, and now it’s in the Golden Triangle up near the border of China, Laos and Cambodia. When I was in Saigon a CIA officer presented the whole story on how the drug trafficking was done and protected by the Kuomintang Army and sometimes flown into Saigon on Air 11 �America cargo planes, so that was a presentation I was not likely to forget. In fact, we’re going to talk about that in one of our seminars in the spring. 26:04 About the drug problem, the drug trafficking, how it was done, and there’s a great segment in the movie “American Gangster”, about exactly how it was done. It’s very much like I was told by the CIA officer. Interviewer: Were there any policies, procedures, or changes that came about as a result of your drug survey? I don’t know that my drug survey had a real impact, but I think what was happening, was that there was an attempt to try to really rehabilitate and educate the soldiers who were involved with drugs. I think in the early part of the Vietnam War they were just—if they weren’t court marshaled, or severely disciplined, or, I don’t know, worse than that maybe, if they weren’t punished severely, that would be unusual. 27:01 I think by the time I was there, it was more an effort to rehabilitate. I mean, they talk about the drug problem right now and mental illness right now, in 2009, in November. I think there’s a lot of effort that’s gone into help our troops who are presently returning from Iraq and Afghanistan, and I could see some of that when I was in Vietnam. Some attempt to—we had psychiatrists; I mean the psychiatrists weren’t there to be punitive. They were there to be of mental value. We had a psychiatric social worker who was an enlisted man, and he could sit down and try to help one of these young eighteen, or nineteen year olds who probably didn’t know what he was doing. But the drugs were everywhere, on the firebases, and get them through the wire around our perimeter. 28:04 Some of the people who cleaned our Quonset huts, or hooches, some of those people you could buy drugs from. I found that out from some of my company people. Then when two of my 12 �medics, who I work with every day, were caught by the CIA because they were heroin addicts, then I didn’t think I was so smart. Interviewer: Was part of the drug problem due to boredom or fear? You hit it right on the head, boredom was a big cause, because there was nothing to do and in fear a way to get round it and put it away, was the other reason that drugs were used. So, you did that just right. Interviewer: To go back to your time on the base, was entertainment provided, or did you go off the base for entertainment at any time? 29:05 No, the USO and all the people involved did a great job. We had an officers' club and an enlisted men’s club, and we routinely had quality entertainment. There were some groups that came from the states, or from other English speaking countries, Australia, and then we had some groups that were from the Southeast Asia area, but we had lots of entertainment and most of the time it was well done and the troops enjoyed it. We had movies regularly. Once in a while things got out of hand and then we might have some kind of scuffle going on. The doctor who was on call might get called over to the outpatient clinic and sew up somebody who got punched in the face, but it general it was a lot of entertainment in the division rear. 30:08 I don’t know what the guys out on the firebase, I don’t know what they did. I don’t think there was any room to have much entertainment on the firebase. Interviewer: Did you have any opportunity to go on leave? I got to go on one week on R&R and I went to Hawaii and met my wife. Then they had a new policy that came into effect in about 1970, I think, when things started going down 13 �in activity and ferociousness, and I was allowed to return to the United States for one week, so I had two weeks out of fifty-two where I was not in my Quonset hut, in Chu Lai. Interviewer: Back to your time at the facility there, were you awarded any citations or medals? 31:06 I was awarded a Bronze Star, but not for any particular act of bravery and we all received service medals. I can’t remember—I flew a lot, but I did not fly enough to have any award for that time. Combat medics who flew a certain amount of time received an air medal besides their combat medic award and they deserved it. So, I didn’t receive anything special, but that was alright. My friend Stanley was awarded a Silver Star for heroism beyond belief, and that happened in 1967 and he was awarded the Silver Star by the Secretary of Defense and in his interview he has a picture of that and that’s very impressive. 32:00 Interviewer: Can you tell us a little more about his experience? My friend Stan McLaughlin was company commander of the 199th Light Infantry Brigade and he was in at the worst time and in the worst area. He was in Vietnam between June of 1967 and January when he was wounded when he stepped on a mine. He was in the jungle and the Vietcong and NVA were everywhere. So, on one occasion he and his company went out and recovered a captured a long range reconnaissance platoon [patrol] and that was no easy accomplishment, because they were out in the jungle and they didn’t have Air Force support and it was almost impossible to bring helicopter support in. They rescued that group and he received the Bronze Star for that. 33:00 they had another episode where they attacked a large bunker complex that had just been put up. It was probably a regimental battalion headquarters for a NVA or VC 14 �regiment, and he led his troops into there and they, basically, wiped it out, and he exposed himself as the company commander and he received an appropriate award, so he received the Bronze Star and received the Silver Star for those two days in December. Interviewer: Do you recall any particularly humorous or unusual events? Well, you name it and we had it happen. There are all kinds of things that happened that were unexpected, humorous, or almost like crazy. 34:00 I think the one I remember the best was because I had just gotten there. We had an officers' party, and there were a lot of parties. We had parties in the company, which would actually include the officers and the men, as long as I said it was okay to do things together, and I thought it was, but then again I was a doc. We had lots of parties and one of the first ones I was taken to by my administrative service officer, was at the MAG 13, their outdoor patio cookout area, I mean first class, and there were officers there. I didn’t know anybody except my administrative service officer who was a 1st Lieutenant. There were a group of guys that were all hanging out together and I found out a little later that these were all warrant officers. 35:02 Warrant officers were helicopter pilots among other things and they were only eighteen or nineteen years old, so they usually wouldn’t be involved with officers' parties, but they were officers and I want to tell you, I thought I’d seen a lot of crazy things in my college years, but I never saw anything like that. I mean, I don’t know how these guys could have possibly recovered and flew their helicopters the next day, but they recovered. It was humorous and it was crazy and as I look back upon it, it was kind of like a statement on, “Man, this place is really weird. This is not the world that everybody said”. Interviewer: Did you get a photograph of those parties? 15 �No, I didn’t take my camera. I did have some pictures that I ended up saving. 36:00 Some pictures that are interesting of some of the officers and one of one of our firebases. I showed that picture when I presented about the Tet Offensive in one of our classes. The pictures of the firebase and in the spring that firebase was completely overrun, so I had some interesting pictures, but if I had known that party was going to end up like it was, yeah, I would have tried to take a camera, but I was not expecting that. Nobody got hurt, so it was still humorous and crazy, but it was not like dangerous. Interviewer: Were there pranks that were played just for fun? All the time, all the time, every day, every day and they played pranks even on the people like psychiatrists, other officers, like in the medical battalion, would play tricks on the psychiatrists. That was a big time activity in the rear, thinking up ridiculous pranks. 37:03 Interviewer: Can you give examples of some of the pranks? Well, being the company commander, I didn’t get too much involved in doing pranks. I guess I would have gotten more involved, I guess, if I was my medical service corps officer, or one of the other sergeants. Of course, a lot of these pranks and crazy behavior were between a group like officers and the enlisted men, but also between what was called “the druggies” and the other people. In many cases they were way into alcohol too much. There were a lot of pranks and silly things done and I didn’t get too much involved in it. I don’t remember any prank that was pulled on me that made me feel like an idiot. 38:02 It might have happened. Interviewer: What did you think of your fellow officers and soldiers and their preparedness and competence? 16 �Well, you know there are two kinds of officers in my division. There was the obligatory volunteer, or the enlisted officer who went to OCS, or was drafted as an enlisted man and was allowed to go to OCS, or of course, anyone who graduated from one of the military academies. The people in the higher ranks, most of those were career officers. There were big differences, big differences between the career officers and the part time limited action officers. I had to deal with five or six division surgeons, all of them were career medical officers. 39:01 Their attitude was quite a bit different than myself and the other officers that I worked with. We knew we were only going to be in the military for two years, but that was all alright. One of the things that was really disturbing to me and a lot of people, and my friend Stan, was you know, when someone got to be down to a hundred days left in their commitment, their interest would obviously start going down and they would start marking off the calendar. It became two a digit midget once you had ninety-nine days and you look at the enemy and there’s nobody counting off days who is in the enemies group. Their commitment was as long as it took, so there was a real conference between officers and officers and between viewing the time in Vietnam, on our side, and the time in Vietnam on the other side. 40:00 Interviewer: Was there a distinction between the career officer and the non-career officer in Vietnam? Well, the career officer was looking at his career and things that would benefit his career. Why did they go to Vietnam? Well, I got to know the division surgeons pretty well and I got to know one of them pretty well. Mostly they went because it was a way they could get advanced in rank and spent a tour in combat. Well, I wasn’t going to get advanced in rank by a tour in combat, nor is any other doctor who is going to be in the military for 17 �two years. It was totally inappropriate and there were a lot of differences like that. A career military officer is looking at his career and what else would you expect him to do? Interviewer: Were they more of an administrative type people rather than hands on medical people? Well, the division surgeons, as a group, especially the one who was in my same field of surgery, he was a very accomplished and dedicated surgeon. 41:08 He was in charge of the residency training program at Fitzsimons Hospital for many years. I actually talked with him several years after I got back. Obgyn division surgeon, Obstetrics/Gynecology, well I don’t think he did very much and yeah, there was a lot of administration for the division surgeon, the medical battalion officers, and those are the people I knew. I don’t know about operations officers, or security, or intelligence officers. I think a lot of the medical officers were career and they were involved in patient care, they were at the hospitals. This ears, nose and throat surgeon, Dr. Kekorian, man he handled some of the worst cases. If they had some terrible neck wound, they had fully trained ear, nose and throat surgeons at both hospitals, but he was probably the best, most experienced, head and neck surgeon. 42:08 So, he would get called in often for the worst civilian and our own American troop casualties. Interviewer: Did you think, at the time, to keep a diary of your experiences, or was it something you think you didn’t want to remember? I wish I had now, because my attitude about everything has changed a lot. For a lot of years I was just very resentful and actually, it took many years until my friend Stan and I began to feel the need to share and get rid of some of these bad feelings. I had a lot more bad feeling than he did, but there was a lot of animosity while I was there. 43:01 18 �Animosity between career officers and non-career officers, animosity between the drinking sergeants and the druggie enlisted men and we had racial problems too, no question about it. Anyone that wants to say that was not true is just trying to fool you, or are dazed and confused. We had lots of racial problems. So, there was a lot of resentment and if I had it to do over again, where I am now, I would have liked to have kept a diary, because I would have remembered a lot more. Now, since my attitude has changed and also true for my lifelong friend Stan, we have remembered things, we’d just talk, I was just with him and we remembered things that we had never remembered before. I don’t mean just a few things, I mean a lot of things, a lot of things I’ve answered to you, and you have very good questions, are things that if you’d asked me ten years ago I probably would have said--I probably would have just sat here and said nothing. 44:06 So, I think there’s a lot of goodness that comes out of history project, things we’re doing now, today, the class we’re holding today, here is Southwest Michigan and I think it’s even changed the attitude of the American people. If you were here for our week-end last year, and if you could come for our veteran, Vietnam Veterans week-end this coming June, where we’re going to have the eighty percent replica of the Vietnam War memorial, there’s been a huge change, people want to know, they want to hear what veterans have to say, they want to know what their feelings are and they don’t necessarily think the Vietnam War was a good idea, but there’s no reason to blame our soldiers, especially not the ones who either enlisted, or were drafted, or were obligatory volunteers. 45:02 Interviewer: did you have a chance to interact with any of the Vietnamese? 19 �Yes, I was in charge of the medical assistance program where we went to help the Vietnamese every other Saturday, in a village that was on an island in the river that was near Chu Lai, and I don’t know the name of the river, but maybe I did at one time, but we interacted with them a lot, because we would go every other Saturday morning and we— actually I had the authority then, in some cases, if there was really a sick child, or an adult with bad infection, I had the authority to have that person taken by, we had a medevac helicopter, not one that stayed there . We would never have a helicopter stay in a place like that; they would come and drop us off. We had the authority, we had two radio operators. And we had the authority to call in the medical helicopter if I decided that we were going to send this child to the hospital. 46:05 We interacted pretty well there—it was not like the civil action programs which we learned about in our course. Those people, like the leader of our group, Don Alsbro, they interacted with the people all the time. Fred McLaughlin, helped the people relocate in a fortified hamlet. He interacted with the people all the time and I appreciated getting to know something about the Vietnamese and their history. I never learned much of the language. There’s always problems trying to interact with the people, and one Saturday when our helicopter dropped us off and flew away and we walked around the building where we had always had the medical assistance program—the back of the building was where we landed and that was still there, but the front of the building was gone and there were no people there. There were some graves there from the home security forces, and the Vietcong were proving that, “You may think that this is secure and you may have your children taken care of by these Americans, but you’re wrong”. 47:07 then we didn’t do any more medical assistance programs. 20 �Interviewer: How did the Vietnamese people treat you, or respond to you, other than in the formal setting where you’re trying to help treat them, but in day to day interaction? The day to day interaction was limited to the Vietnamese that were either working, or in something that involved our military, so we had people that would come in and actually clean the clothes, they’re called “hooch maids’, and there wasn’t much interaction there. It was like servants and you didn’t have much opportunity to get to know people. Now, I know a lot more about how many of our soldiers did get to know people, but I didn’t have that opportunity. I told you I never went beyond the fence, so I never, really, was going to have the time to spend, to sit down and try to understand. 48:10 But, I’m glad we had those civil action programs. Now, a group of our people just went back and the Vietnamese are, at least apparently, half glad that we were there. They are very friendly and the animosity that you might think would be overwhelming, the difference in political philosophy that’s still there, the group that went from our “Lest We forget” group, they’re going to present their experience , but I already know it was terrific. Interviewer: Now, when you became a “two digit midget”, did your behavior change at all? Not much, not much, but I’ll give you an example that I remember now, and I don’t know why I remember it now. There were a lot of bad things that physicians had to do and orthopedic physicians at the hospitals still had to do a lot of amputations. 49:08 It wasn’t like the Civil War, but it was still bad and I found out from various physicians that it was a syndrome among orthopedic surgeons, a pattern of behavior, when they get down to a certain limited few days left, they wouldn’t want to do any more amputations. They 21 �would try to get one of the other surgeons to do it and that was not just isolated, it was like, “I don’t want to do this any more, it’s not why I became a physician. I don’t want to spend time doing amputations”, so there’s a good example of what happens when you get down near the end, among medical personnel. Interviewer: Were there any certain precautions you had to take going into the villages? No, I didn’t go into the villages. 50:06 I didn’t ever come close to getting hit by a rocket, but we all kind of just sort of hid out, you know we hid out. We kind of stayed in our own area. We didn’t have a desire—of course I went to firebases, but we didn’t have a desire to go out there, because it was pretty safe where we were. Interviewer: Do you recall the day you left? I’m a little hesitant to tell you what happened when I left, because up to this point I don’t think anybody would say that I was unbalanced, but leaving Vietnam was an incredible horror show, an incredible and horrific time for me. 51:03 I’ll sum it up in two minutes and then we can finish our interview. I was supposed to go from Chu Lai to Da Nang and from Da Nang to Cam Ranh Bay, everyone left from Cam Ranh Bay. I had to have my 201 file and the clever doctor that I was, I found out the sooner you sign into Cam Ranh Bay, the sooner you leave the country, you don’t have to wait until your deros date, you can leave early and boy that was exciting, and so exciting I didn’t, even hardly, want to tell anybody else. So, I got all ready to go and I go over to get my 201 file and it’s not there. It’s not there and I’ve been there for three hundred and sixth two days, how could it not be there? That I remember all very well, “Don’t know”, “Well, find out”, and they found out, “Well, it’s in Da Nang, it’s a company in Da Nang”, “Well, I’ve never been in 22 �a company in Da Nang”. 52:04 So, then I had the privilege to go the Adjutant General's office and boy, whoever saw me, and fortunately it wasn’t Don, because he was in the Adjutant General's office, in that same division, but it wasn’t him. Some officer had to put up with me demanding why my 201 file had been misplaced. Finally the Adjutant General of the division demanded, his medical company commander talk to the Adjutant General and I made enough of a stink that I got to and he was not happy with me either, but he had a helicopter go and get my 201 file. He brought it back, I got in the plane and flew to Da Nang and the plane was overbooked. They take us off the plane and we sat in the tarmac about eight hours until that plane went down to Cam Ranh Bay and came back. Then we got on the plane in the dark, went down to Cam Ranh Bay and now the time for signing in early is pretty much gone away, but that was nothing compared to the next couple days. 53:02 My wallet fell out of my pants and I had no ID card for about six hours total panic. I went in the same door to take my duffle bag and I was supposed to hand my manifest in and go out the other door, but instead I went back out the same door I came in, so now I didn’t have a seat on the plane. I went to the officers' club and was sitting there, and the wallet was returned by a warrant officer, by the way. I’m sitting there and this guy comes in and says, “Is there a Captain Lulenski here?” As soon as he said that I looked at my briefcase and thought, “Oh no, you didn’t hand your manifest in”. He comes over and I said, “I know why you’re here”, and he said, “Captain, you do not have a seat on the plane”. I remember saying, “Just do something, I mean, get me on the next plane”. 54:02 Well, before that happened, that night we were all in the officers barracks and just to prove a point some sapper—some sappers came in and they blew up one of those huge oil depots, storage depots like we had here on the 23 �island, St. Joe river, gigantic, blew it up, blew some of the officers in the building I was in out of their bunks, and now the Cam Ranh Bay airport is closed and it’s on red alert. Nobody’s going to get a new manifest, nobody’s going to get on a plane, no planes are going to leave, and no planes are going to come in. That went on for two days, everything was totally shut down and the explosion was—I can’t describe it, I mean, it was like an atomic bomb and it was close, straight at the end of the runway. 55:02 So, finally I did get some sergeant to go and take me and I got a new manifest. Now, I’m kind of past my date that I was supposed to leave, I mean I’ve been there forever now, but I’m gonna get on the plane and I go and get up on the stairs and this is the last thing I’ll finish with. There’s a drug smelling dog there with some type of MP and he sees I’m a Captain in the medical corps, its right here, and he said, “Captain, do you have and type of drugs or illegal weapons?” I said, “I only have a prescription for sleep medicine from one of my fellow medical officers”. He looked at it, it was a prescription, it was my name, it was a benign sleep medicine, and he said, “You can put that in my hat and you can get on the plane”. 56:01 I looked at him and I looked at the dog, looked at the plane and I got on the plane. That was my last moment in Vietnam. Interviewer: A memorable one and because of your delay, your family was probably waiting for you to arrive, could you contact them? No, when the base is on “red alert” you don’t contact anybody, and once you’re in the plane you don’t contact anybody. I contacted them when I got to Tacoma, Washington. Travis Air Force Base, it was Travis. 24 �Interviewer: Now you mentioned one friendship that you made and continued after your service. Were you involved, or did you have a number of others you were in contact with? No, and that’s because of the nature of being there, but my friend Stan and I went to high school together and I just had dinner with he and his wife, and my wife, about three days ago. 57:01 We were very close before and stayed that way. I’ve never gone to a reunion of the Americal Division, so I’ve never had the chance to see if any of the other medical officers were interested. I maintained contact with two medical officers who served with me for a while, but I guess I should call Dick Rose up , I think I should, but now, you know, I’m thinking about going back to a reunion of the Americal, because there were good people there, and we have some people here that were in the Americal and they’re good people. Interviewer: Now, did your medical experience in the service help guide you to your current specialty? I had to make a decision of a specialty to go into before I went into the military, but my experience there solidified my dedication to being a surgeon, well my father was a surgeon too. 58:03 He was a surgeon with the 82nd Airborne. He was fully trained and I was kind of going down that path anyway, but I think it strengthened my personal desire to be a surgeon. I was very impressed with the dedication of the medical officers. I was overwhelmingly awed by the heroism and the dedication of the corpsmen, the medical corpsmen combat medics. I guess it certainly has changed my view of nurses and people that I work with that are in medicine, changed my attitude when I was in my training because of the way those people acted and how long they worked. We had that Firebase 25 �Maryann overrun and there were a hundred and forty casualties, about half were killed and the other half was wounded. 59:01 I went over and helped out for a while because they needed every surgeon they could find to help, all the ones that were in charge of specialties, even eye surgery, and those people like my father, they just kept on, they just kept on twenty –four hours. I know they did—my father operated for seventy hours behind German lines on D-Day, D-Day plus one, so I guess the military brings out the best in a lot of people, certainly some of the doctors I know, it did. Interviewer: Can you describe your arrival back in the states; did you have any kind of re- indoctrination to normalcy then? No, coming back to the states was just get out of your uniform as fast you could and hope that you weren’t going to be attacked by some group, because you were a “hateful baby killer”. 60:00 Interviewer: Were you afraid of that? You bet, yup, and it was pretty much the same, there was not anybody gonna say, “Welcome Home, you did a great job”. Stan, when he got to his assignment place, he figured, you know, someone would say something—here’s a guy with Vietnamese decorations for doing work in the hamlet and the Silver Star, the Bronze Star with V, Bronze Star, this is a military hero and no one said anything. They said, “You’re going to go to your next assignment at such and such”, and that’s kind of the way with me, they said, “You’re going to Fort Carson Colorado”, and I said, “Okay”. So, it’s not too surprising that when I left the service, I didn’t continue in the reserves. But, it was the American public had turned so much against it by 1971. 1:01 You could just feel the 26 �coldness and the—actually it was worse than coldness, there was actually absolute hate— didn’t want to be in the war. Interviewer: Do you see any similarities between that and what we’re seeing today? Yeah, we don’t have time for that hour, but I sure do, sure do, that nature of the warfare, and the most recent thing is the taking away of many free fire zones, exactly the way it was when I was there. You can see the enemy, but you can’t shoot the enemy. Interviewer: Is there anything else you would like to talk about? No, it’s been excellent and I want to congratulate you on an excellent job and if you developed those questions yourself then you are a special person. 1:50 Interviewer: Thank you for coming. 27 �28 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context LulenskiG1032V Title A name given to the resource Lulenski, Gary (Interview transcript and video), 2009 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lulenski, Gary Description An account of the resource Dr. Gary Lulenski was an ‘obligatory volunteer' and held the rank of captain for the entirety of his service because of his previous medical schooling. He was stationed in Chu Lai, Vietnam as a Medical Company Commander for the Americal Division. Completed a large-scale drug survey which showed interesting trends. His service was from 1970-1971. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Massa, Richard (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings United States. Army Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2009-11-19 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/debc283b1d6d6c220ee250fae8940a4b.pdf abe7d760d04aef035347762231a256ed PDF Text Text � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Incunabula Description An account of the resource The term incunabula refers to books printed between 1450 and 1500, approximately the first fifty years following the invention, by Johann Gutenberg of Mainz, of printing from moveable type. Our collection includes over 200 volumes and numerous unbound leaves from books printed during this period. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1450/1500 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Incunabula Collection (DC-03) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United </a> Subject The topic of the resource Incunabula Printing 1450-1500 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-03 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource text Language A language of the resource eng it la nl de Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Lumen animae [folium 167] Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-03_167Berengarius1482 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Berengarius de Landora Description An account of the resource One leaf from Lumen animae by Berengarius de Landora and edited by Matthias Farinator. Printed in Strassburg by the Printer of the 1481 "Legenda Aurea" on March 22, 1482. Illustrated with red rubricated initials. [GW M16917; ISTC ib00341700] Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Strassburg: Printer of the 1481 "Legenda Aurea" Subject The topic of the resource Incunabula Printing 1450-1500 Language A language of the resource la Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1482 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Seidman Rare Books Collection Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Farinator, Matthias (editor) Type The nature or genre of the resource Text https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f2471e88df568b62289dc51f7aa7f618.m4v ece03e03b052939b66d49da2782fd26f https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/50d3ebac9e0d6bc87dc57de3bc7abc11.pdf 8a3293b19a66def9c8f2d57546a73185 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans' History Project John Lund Vietnam War 54 minutes 43 seconds (00:00:12) Early Life -Born in Cadillac, Michigan, in 1950 -Went through Cadillac's public schools -Father was in the rubber business and worked as an automotive supplier (00:01:00) Enlisting in the Army & Vietnam War -Parents couldn't pay for his college -Saw the GI Bill as a chance to go to college -Father served during World War II on a B-17 bomber -Uncle served with the Marines in WWII, and uncle flew a P-51 Mustang in WWII -Didn't know much about the Vietnam War -Saw recruiting posters talking about travel and exciting opportunities -Never saw any anti-war movements or anti-war sentiments in Cadillac -In July 1969 he reported for basic training -Had enlisted in the Army while in high school -Went to Detroit in April or May 1969 for his physical -Saw men trying to get out of getting drafted -Faked incontinence, psychological instability, and other health problems -Worked before going to basic training (00:04:00) Basic Training -Sent to Fort Knox, Kentucky, for basic training -Remembers the drill sergeant being intimidating -Wen through processing -Had another physical and vaccinations -Went on marches, low crawled under barbed wire, and had to go on the low bars before breakfast -Broken down and rebuilt as a soldier -Instilling psychological and physical discipline -Went on forced marches during the day and at night -Grew up spending time outdoors, so he adjusted well -Recruits from the inner city had difficulty adjusting to the Army -Some men didn't want to be there -Basic training lasted eight to ten week (00:06:47) Advanced Infantry Training -After one week of leave he reported to Fort Polk, Louisiana, for advanced infantry training -Traveled by bus to Fort Polk -Had one overnight stay -Fort Polk is located in the southwest corner of the state -Received advanced infantry training and more weapons training -Received Jungle Training -Went through mock-up Vietnamese villages and learned counter-insurgency strategies -Taught how to act if captured -What to say, what not to say, and how to survive -Taught some of the Vietnamese language and customs �-Roughly a third of the trainers had served in Vietnam -Some of them talked about their experiences -Another eight to ten weeks of training (00:09:07) Deployment to Vietnam -Came home for two weeks -Flew out of Detroit to Chicago, then up to Alaska, over to Japan -From Japan flew to Cam Ranh Bay, South Vietnam -Landed during the day -Massive Air Force base -First impression of Vietnam: hot and humid -Took a shower and went through a briefing -Stayed at Cam Ranh Bay for two or three days -Waiting for his assignment -Had orders to go north (00:11:13) Assignment to 101st Airborne Division -Flew north to Da Nang on a C-130, then taken by truck to Camp Sally -Located off of Highway 1 near Camp Evans and north of Phu Bai -Assigned to Recon in the 2nd Battalion, 501st Infantry Regiment, 101st Airborne Division -Going on long range patrols -Recon teams supported the 501st Infantry Regiment and the 506th Infantry Regiment -Operating near the Laotian border -Joined his team at a firebase -Greeted by a sergeant -Ranger and a down to earth man -Tried to teach John the basics of surviving in Vietnam (00:14:00) Recon Missions -On call all the time -Teams were sent out at night for their missions -Sometimes sent as emergency responders if a unit was pinned down in the field -Usually traveled on rivers -Better to cover their tracks -Ate freeze-dried food -Better than the regular Army rations -Usually operated as six man teams, including a medic -Sometimes had a sniper operating with them -Missions could last half of a day to two weeks depending on the nature of the mission -First mission happened near Christmas 1969 -Operating near the top of the A Shau Valley -Minimal enemy activity -January to March 1970 noticed an increase in enemy activity -Lost a team member in March 1970 -Operated in the jungle most of the time -Saw black jaguars [leopards], spiders, monkeys, apes, land leeches, and snakes -Kept their distance and never had to kill any larger animals -Sent in to investigate signs of enemy activity -Collect information without making contact then get out of the area -Usually rappelled into areas as opposed to landing a helicopter in the jungle -Used the jungle penetrator systems to punch through the triple canopy jungle -Easiest way to extract wounded from the jungle �-Sometimes when they got to a landing zone the North Vietnamese ambushed them -Dropped off two to three kilometers from the patrol area -Moved at night and hunkered down during the day (00:18:33) Weapons & Supplies -Carried the M-16 assault rifle, CAR-15 carbine, shotguns, or sniper rifles -Carried weapon of choice and as much ammunition as possible -Traveled light so they could move fast -Sometimes had to run from the enemy instead of engaging them (00:19:22) Enemy Contact -Tried to push through the jungle and avoided established trails -Never cut their own trails -Followed streams -Avoiding the North Vietnamese -North Vietnamese booby-trapped existing trails -Knew of North Vietnamese troops that had been in South Vietnam for ten years -Some of the North Vietnamese and Viet Cong had fought the French since the 1940s -North Vietnamese were dedicated fighters -Found underground bunker complexes, underground hospitals, and ammunition caches -Some of the hospitals still had fresh blood and supplies -Some of the bunker complexes still had enemy occupants -Sometimes went in knowing there were North Vietnamese, sometimes just stumbled on them -During the monsoon season enemy activity subsided -Monsoons made it difficult for the helicopters -Black Widow Squadron helicopters flew in any weather to drop off and extract soldiers (00:22:26) Getting Wounded -On April 23, 1970, he got wounded -One week before they were operating near Firebase Ripcord -Note: Firebase – artillery outpost usually accessed by helicopters; away from larger base -Taking a lot of mortar and .51 caliber machine gun fire -Trying to find the enemy positions so they could be destroyed -They walked into an ambush -Had to figure out the direction of the enemy fire -Line company of infantry sent in to help John's recon team -The sergeant was killed and he got wounded -Helicopter pilots braved the enemy fire and flew in to evacuate them (00:24:32) Recovering from Wound -Flown to a field hospital in Da Nang -Shot in the right hand and the neck while trying to get to cover -Around the second or third week of May he was flown to the Air Force hospital in Cam Ranh Bay -Hot food, nurses, and a room to himself -Felt like being a civilian -Spent three weeks there doing rehabilitation (00:25:50) Battle of Firebase Ripcord -Rejoined Recon with three new teams -Two teams had been wiped out at Firebase Henderson while he was in the hopsital nd -2 Battalion of the 506th Infantry Regiment established Firebase Ripcord on March 12, 1970 [date of first attempt—firebase actually set up starting April 11] -Note: Firebase capable of destroying North Vietnamese supplies in the A Shau Valley -Had been working in the A Shau Valley since January 1970 �-Got close to Firebase Ripcord during the first week of July 1970 -Friend was killed near Ripcord on July 9 -Working with Alpha and Bravo companies of the 2nd Battalion -They had set out landmines, and nobody told the recon teams -His friend walked into the minefield and set off one of the mines -On July 14 they assaulted Hill 1000 with Alpha and Bravo companies -Expected bird calls and animal noises in the jungle, but near Hill 1000 the jungle was silent -Expected enemy resistance, but didn't expect as much resistance as they encountered -North Vietnamese had the high ground and bunkers -Seemingly endless supply of North Vietnamese troops -Pinned down by mortar fire and rocket-propelled grenades -Alpha and Bravo were losing men -Retreated to the initial drop zone -Bullets coming from everywhere -South Vietnamese pilots in World War II planes provided close air support -Good pilots -Had more air support than artillery support -Continued recon missions after July 14 and never participated in an assault again -Heard the North Vietnamese bombardment of Firebase Ripcord -Saw helicopters going to and leaving Ripcord -Didn't know the state of the battle -Collected some North Vietnamese documents during the battle, but never tapped into telephone lines (00:33:29) Fall of Firebase Ripcord -Heard about the plan to evacuate Firebase Ripcord -Evacuation of the firebase began on July 22 -Last American personnel in the area left on July 23 -Once everyone had been evacuated B-52 bombers destroyed the base -Sent to Camp Evans -After Camp Evans they drove down to Phu Bai -Passed through Hue en route -First time seeing civilians (00:34:37) Stationed at Firebase Bastogne -Taken to Firebase Bastogne near Hue -Firebase had a road leading to and away from it -Most firebases relied on helicopters -In the hills, but not in the A Shau Valley -Lost some recon men during patrols in the area (00:36:34) R&R -Had an R&R at Eagle Beach in Vietnam -Flown straight from the field to Eagle Beach, still had their weapons -Supposed to be there for two or three days -Swam and drank -Line company got hit in the A Shau Valley -Ordered to sober up to go save the trapped infantry -Got one week of R&R in Sydney, Australia -Went to bars, spent money, and had interesting experiences -Ran into a friend from Cadillac who was in the Air Force -Not good to go back to Vietnam (00:39:04) Stationed at Phu Bai �-Stationed at Phu Bai for the rest of his tour -Given a hut and allowed to keep his weapon -Didn't go on recon patrols while at Phu Bai -Felt insecure at a larger base -Worked in supply -Stationed there for 2 ½ months -Final duty station in Vietnam (00:40:12) Morale & Discipline Problems -Didn't like Phu Bai due to morale problems -No sense of camaraderie -White and black soldiers self-segregated, and he didn't like that -A lot of soldiers smoked weed -He didn't, but he drank beer -There were fights between black and white soldiers -Didn't understand it, because they needed to focus on their mission -Never saw heroin use at Phu Bai (00:42:20) End of Tour -Flew home via Tiger Airlines (chartered airliners for soldiers in Vietnam) -Passengers cheered when they left Vietnamese airspace -Landed at Seattle -Greeted by protestors at the airport -Protestors shouted insults at them and threw things at them -Given 45 days of leave (00:43:22) End of Service -After his leave ended he drove from Cadillac to Fort Ord, California -Arrived there in January 1971 -Didn't like the formality of the base -He was a sergeant at the time -Transferred to Fort Hunter Liggett, California -Working with civilian personnel -Testing laser weaponry -Fascinated him -Worked with Navy personnel -Lived in Salinas, California, and stayed there until April 1971 -Not the best community for servicemen, but not the worst either (00:45:36) Reflections on Vietnam -Strong sense of camaraderie in recon -Some good missions, and some bad missions -Remembers a helicopter being shot down near their position -Pilot survived and stayed with them in the field for a few days -Sometimes crossed into Laos, but doesn't remember anything distinct about those occasions -Recon team's call sign was ―Scorpio‖ -Supposed to change their call sign with every mission, but they liked the name -Had a low chance of survival -If you lived for one month you were considered an ―old timer‖ -All of the lieutenants were Rangers, and some of the sergeants were Rangers (00:47:42) Life after the War -Stayed with his parents -Wouldn't sleep in his bed and had recurring nightmares �-Didn't leave the house for a week -Remembers being in downtown Cadillac and a car backfired -Unconsciously reacted and dove to the ground -Got a job working in the woods -Eight hours a day working by himself -Attended and graduated from Northwestern Michigan College in Traverse City -Studied conservation -Got into automotive rubber supply in Cadillac -Went back to college in 1980 to study applied science – aviation -Learned how to build a plane, and built a plane with his father -Took a while to readjust to civilian life -Had to focus on tasks to ignore the bad memories -Stays away from anything that might trigger his trauma (00:51:27) Reflections on Service -Sense of camaraderie -Taught him how to work with people -Chance to see Vietnamese and Australian cultures -Admired the Kit Carson Scouts, and even respected the North Vietnamese soldiers' dedication -Also had a deep respect for the Republic of Korea soldiers -Hopes the Kit Carson Scouts made it out of Vietnam before South Vietnam fell -Note: Kit Carson Scouts were North Vietnamese troops that defected to South Vietnam -Always got the best Kit Carson Scouts (00:53:02) Vietnamese Civilians -Had civilians at the base on Phu Bai -Standoffish -Gave haircuts to American troops -Mostly kept to themselves and did their jobs -Never stayed in civilian population centers -Closest he got to that was passing through Hue -Ordered not to shoot any water buffalo -Spent most of his time on larger bases or firebases � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context LundJ1943V Title A name given to the resource Lund, John (Interview outline and video), 2016 Description An account of the resource John Lund was born in Cadillac, Michigan, in 1950. In the spring of 1969 he enlisted in the Army, and after graduating from high school reported for duty in July 1969. He received Basic Training at Fort Knox, Kentucky, and then received Advanced Infantry Training at Fort Polk, Louisiana. He deployed to Vietnam in late 1969. At Camp Sally he was assigned to a Recon unit in the 2nd Battalion, of the 501st Infantry Regiment, in the 101st Airborne Division. In December 1969 he went on his first recon mission. From January through March 1970 he went on patrols in the A Shau Valley, and was wounded on April 23, 1970. After recovering he rejoined his recon unit and conducted patrols around Firebase Ripcord until its total evacuation on July 23, 1970. After the fall of Firebase Ripcord he went on recon missions around Firebase Bastogne until being reassigned to Phu Bai. His tour ended in late 1970, and in January 1971 he reported to Fort Ord, California. He completed his enlistment at Fort Hunter Liggett, California. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lund, John Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="http://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-08-07 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c6b702f058e55725f0132916a2681db7.jpg 5aa12ee3e3939f7d5f7f69862e0b5324 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Faces of Grand Valley Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource University Communications Description An account of the resource A non-comprehensive collection of photographs of Grand Valley faculty, staff, administrators, board members, friends, and alumni. Photos collected by University Communications for use in promotion and information sharing about Grand Valley with the wider community. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1960s - 1990s Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived GV012-03. University Communications. Vita Files Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copryight Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University College administrators College teachers Colleges and universities -- Faculty Michigan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-03 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Language A language of the resource eng Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context LundyJames_Photo1 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. University Communications Title A name given to the resource Lundy, James Description An account of the resource James Lundy, Psychology Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University – History College teachers Universities and colleges – Faculty Michigan Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived University Communications. Vita Files, 1968-2016 (GV012-03) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9a30bc48b55cb7031dbabba6d1880265.jpg 943e228d6a2f29d209be2debdf25c1fb Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Faces of Grand Valley Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource University Communications Description An account of the resource A non-comprehensive collection of photographs of Grand Valley faculty, staff, administrators, board members, friends, and alumni. Photos collected by University Communications for use in promotion and information sharing about Grand Valley with the wider community. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1960s - 1990s Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived GV012-03. University Communications. Vita Files Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copryight Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University College administrators College teachers Colleges and universities -- Faculty Michigan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-03 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Language A language of the resource eng Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context LundyJames_Photo2 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. University Communications Title A name given to the resource Lundy, James Description An account of the resource James Lundy, Psychology Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University – History College teachers Universities and colleges – Faculty Michigan Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived University Communications. Vita Files, 1968-2016 (GV012-03) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6fc9b10ffced3c69bf75e3ab1cdf4abe.jpg d925e9185e54d7eaef9def6c1136e79c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oceana County Migrant Labor History Collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Shell-Weiss, Melanie Description An account of the resource Collection contains images and documents digitized and collected through the project "Growing Community: A Century of Migration in Oceana County." This project was a collaboration between El Centro Hispano de Oceana, the Oceana County Historical and Genealogical Society, and Grand Valley State University funded by a Common Heritage grant from the United States National Endowment for the Humanities. The materials in this collection document the history of communities in Hart, Shelby, and Walkerville and explore themes of migration, labor, religion, family, belonging, national and cultural identities, regional, national, and international connections, and citizenship. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Oceana County (Mich.) Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Grand Valley State University. Kutsche Office of Local History Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Special Collections and University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource El Centro Hispano de Oceana; Oceana County Historical and Genealogical Society Relation A related resource Growing Community (NEH Common Heritage project) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-06 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf image/jpeg audio/mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Image Sound recording Language A language of the resource eng spa Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016 Subject The topic of the resource Oceana County (Mich.) Hart (Mich.) Shelby (Mich.) Farms Farmers Migrant agricultural laborers Hispanic Americans Account books Diaries Oral history Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-06_Oceana_Vasquez-Fidencio-001 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Vasquez family Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource Unknown Title A name given to the resource Lupe Vasquez and her godmother Description An account of the resource Photo of Fidencio Vasquez, Jr.'s mother, Lupe Vasquez (left), with her godmother. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Vasquez, Fidencio Jr. Relation A related resource Growing Community (NEH Common Heritage Project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Subject The topic of the resource Hispanic American women Migrant agricultural laborers United States Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e7f040e6d23bcdec8f695c4697b6f869.jpg b221431fd4f852ec78083af0b75527d7 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oceana County Migrant Labor History Collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Shell-Weiss, Melanie Description An account of the resource Collection contains images and documents digitized and collected through the project "Growing Community: A Century of Migration in Oceana County." This project was a collaboration between El Centro Hispano de Oceana, the Oceana County Historical and Genealogical Society, and Grand Valley State University funded by a Common Heritage grant from the United States National Endowment for the Humanities. The materials in this collection document the history of communities in Hart, Shelby, and Walkerville and explore themes of migration, labor, religion, family, belonging, national and cultural identities, regional, national, and international connections, and citizenship. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Oceana County (Mich.) Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Grand Valley State University. Kutsche Office of Local History Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Special Collections and University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource El Centro Hispano de Oceana; Oceana County Historical and Genealogical Society Relation A related resource Growing Community (NEH Common Heritage project) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-06 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf image/jpeg audio/mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Image Sound recording Language A language of the resource eng spa Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016 Subject The topic of the resource Oceana County (Mich.) Hart (Mich.) Shelby (Mich.) Farms Farmers Migrant agricultural laborers Hispanic Americans Account books Diaries Oral history Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-06_Oceana_Vasquez-Fidencio-010 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Vasquez family Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1966-08 Title A name given to the resource Lupe Vasquez, August 1966 Description An account of the resource Photo of Lupe Vasquez, taken shortly after the family's move into their new house on State Street in Hart, Michigan. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Vasquez, Fidencio Jr. Relation A related resource Growing Community (NEH Common Heritage Project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Subject The topic of the resource Hart (Mich.) Hispanic American women Migrant agricultural laborers United States Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/775cebdf47f36282deae1147a73ca584.mp4 c3ae25b7559a8b42e07156128a345830 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f62c55732feaddd7b18096bf460de350.pdf 49e90600927c29ca8e4465376a879a9e PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Alan Lust (23:15) (01:00) Background Information • Served in the Air Force, 1971-1979 • He was born in Ohio and worked for a bus company that his uncle owned before joining the service • He worked there from the time he was 18 till he was 21 and does not recommend working for anyone that you are related to • He went to visit a Navy recruiter, but they were at lunch • There was a Marines and Army recruiter, but he was not interested in those branches, so he wound up at the Air Force recruitment building (3:10) Travel • Al traveled to an air base in Germany • He was in Thailand for 6 months • He spent 5 years working with bombers in North Carolina • Al spent his last year of service in Korea (3:50) Thailand • They had heard that the Viet Cong were planning to attack their base • They were mortared and shot at many times in Thailand and it was not fun at all • Al was never too fearful because he never experienced heavy combat • He worked with F-4s that carried many radar guided missiles (7:30) Entertainment • The men played a lot of cards • They wrote letters back to their families and friends • He never called the states because it cost about $9 per minute • He was very stressed out and drank heavily, which he is not proud of (11:00) Christmas in Thailand in 1972 • They spent Christmas loading bombs; it was not a good Christmas knowing that what you were doing might kill many people (13:45) The End of His Time in the Service • Al left Korea and headed towards California • He had decided that he wanted to go to college • He was in North Carolina when the war ended and he thought it was all a huge waste; there were so many deaths and we did not accomplish our goal �(17:05) Al’s Career • He wanted to go to college to become a Pastor • Al worked on a mission dealing with the homeless for 16 years • He was a rescue mission chaplain and a substance abuse counselor (18:20) Looking Back • Al believes that war is terrible and it is ironic because there are things that are worse than war, such as “passiveness in the face of evil” • He believes that was is necessary when power lies in the hands of someone evil • He has gained much pride and satisfaction from his time spent in the service • A military experience is very beneficial for any young man; it provides responsibility and experience • Al’s highest rank was E-5 and he was in the Air Force from 1971-79 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context LustJ_001A Title A name given to the resource Lust, Alan John (Interview outline and video), 2005 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lust, Alan John Description An account of the resource Al Lust was born in Ohio in 1950 and enlisted in the United States Air Force in 1971. Al served in Germany, Thailand, and Korea. While in Thailand, Al worked on flight missions against the Viet Cong. Al stated that he was mortared and shot at many times but never experienced any heavy combat. After his time in the Air Force, Al worked on a mission dealing with the homeless for 16 years. He also was a rescue mission chaplain and a substance abuse counselor. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource McAlpine, John (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) Video recordings United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans United States. Air Force Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2005-05-24 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b74ec057d8d3a5e6495ba124071e4c92.mp4 eeca720846c64a09cf727ba2e342099d https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ec986f9ef610b89f2ac18f01dcd51a5f.pdf 37c919ffdb2674088a68b02167ca92d0 PDF Text Text GrandValleyStateUniversity Veterans History Project World War II Jay Lutke (1:05:04) Background Information (00:02)    Born in Michigan in May of 1918. (00:02) Jay was inducted into the Army on May 1st (1943) just before his 27th [25th?] birthday. (00:12) At the time of his draft, Jay was married and had 2 girls. (00:46) Basic Training (1:35)      He attended basic training at Fort KnoxKentucky. (1:39) Jay recalls having to carry 60 lb. packs up and down Misery Hill while at FortKnox. (2:05) Jay and one of his friends from training would often go to Tennessee during the weekends. This was without any passes. (2:50) Overall Jay enjoyed his time in basic. He was in good physical shape at the time. (4:08) Jay served in the 702nd Tank Battalion attached to the 8th Infantry Division in the 3rd Army. (5:00) Voyage overseas (5:20)    Jay shipped out of New York. (5:20) There some men who got sick on the way to Europe. Going back, however in November [1945?], there were high swells that caused sea sickness. (5:47) Jay arrived in SouthamptonEngland, in late summer of 1943. He soon moved to LiverpoolEngland [possibly the other way around?] (7:16) Service in ()           Though the men were taught all positions in a tank in training, Jay served specifically as a gunner. (8:01) Jay believed the differences between the German tanks and the American was like the differences between a rifle and a BB gun. (8:55) The Sherman tanks could outmaneuver the German tanks. (9:13) Jay was brought to his company by truck. On the day of his arrival [in France?] the First Sergeant had been killed. Jay was later assigned to do guard duty. (10:34) Jay was with his company for approx. 1 week before he was assigned a tank. (11:30) He spent much of his service in the countryside of France ultimately ending in Austria. (12:12) For combat, the armored units led the way to push back the enemy forces leaving only pockets of hostiles behind. Jay was assigned to clear out these pockets. (13:11) The unit did take many casualties. (13:45) While in Austria, Jay fraternized with a civilian and helped him get a meal. The man was struggling to get enough to eat. (14:45) While getting the man food, Jay’s company left without him. He got a ride with a jeep back to his company. (16:22) � Description of the inside of a Sherman Tank. (17:40) Action (18:38)          Jay once went on a night attack with no reconnaissance. The men traveled to a town they were to take. But as the tank traveled, it got stuck against a tree on a hill. (18:42) Jay had to disable all of the guns after the wreck. This means that the .30 and .50. caliber machine guns needed to be removed from the tank. (20:16) A flare was lit to signal the tank wreck. This in turn gave away the company’s position. The men were then fired upon. (20:40) After the men abandoned the tank, they needed to go back to it to recover several grease guns. (21:50) The men did encounter some German soldiers. They did not fire upon them as to not give away their position. (22:15) The men came to a clearing that they had to cross while taking fire. Jay ran across the field in a zigzag motion to avoid being hit. (23:25) On a different occasion, Jay’s unit pulled into a camp with barracks. The men were excited to get a good night’s sleep. Instead the men had to serve guard. (25:13) Jay had to clear pockets fairly regularly. This task was shared between another tank companies. (28:04) Jay did meet General George Patton while traveling through France. (30:34) Life During Service (32:06)               During winter, the tanks got very cold. The hatches were almost always left open. Men did sleep under the tank to keep warm. (32:11) When there were no company cooks around, the men survived on C rations. these rations could be best described as edible. (33:05) As the end of the war approached, Jay did encounter some civilian resistance. (34:30) Jay was wounded and was awarded the Purple Heart. (35:59) While in Austria, Jay stayed with the tank while his fellow soldiers looted a castle. While guarding the tank he spotted some deer and shot them. (36:30) Jay was offered a goose dinner by some civilians he had met while traveling. (38:20) Jay also tried fishing by dropping hand grenades in the deepest part of a creek. (36:00) Jay was nearly court martialed after he shot some deer with the .50 caliber machine gun. (37:00) While in town, Jay and several of his friends found a VW beetle. After riding it for a while, the men were ordered to evacuate the vehicle and leave it. (42:00) Jay’s officers were very highly respected. They acted less as officers and more alike the common soldiers. This made them more relatable and thus amiable to the common man. (44:54) The men were able to write to his family. (45:40) The stress, particularly with dealing with the cold, was hard to take for Jay. (36:37) The men were able to get a reasonable amount of sleep, despite having to serve 2 hours of guard duty every night. (48:00) Jay was able to make several close friendships while overseas. (50:43) End of War and Service (51:54)  Many of the cities that Jay passed through in Germany were completely destroyed. (52:40) �     For [after?] 6 months (from May 1945-November 1945) Jay lived in a Cigarette camp [camp near the coast used for processing returning soldiers]. (53:34) The men spent much of this time after the German surrender playing pickup ball games and watching movies. (53:41) The older generation of the German people was much more passive about the Americans moving in than the younger ones. (54:10) While voyaging home in November of 1945 the ship experienced 30 ft. swells. (56:17) Jay was sent to FortMeade [Dix?] New Jersey once arriving in the U.S. where he was discharged. He was given a ticked for a train back to Michigan. (57:42) Life after Service (59:00)     Jay’s father, who worked as a builder, was anxious to get Jay back to work. He then began a career in construction. (59:10) His time in the service gave him lots of perspective on the topic of war. (1:00:00) Jay is thankful for his service and was thankful that he remained safe. (1:02:16) All together Jays’ service was approx. 2 years (May of 1943-November of 1945). (1:03:11) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context LutkeJ1085V Title A name given to the resource Lutke, Jay (Interview outline and video), 2010 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lutke, Jay Description An account of the resource Jay Lutke, born in Michigan in May of 1918, served in the U.S. Army from approximately May 1943-Novmeber 1945 in Europe during World War II. After completing his basic training at Fort Knox Kentucky, Jay was assigned to the 702nd Tank Battalion attached to the 8th Infantry Division in the 3rd Army. Jay spent his service traveling through France and Austria clearing pockets of resistance, and remained in Austria and Germany for about six months after the German surrender. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Bolthouse, Marv (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings United States. Army World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-11-02 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/01c8ade2d2aa658810e857ee0e39b9d7.mp4 e46488a260b7a74ee3c51d663758950a https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/97edd028f5d50108a9344456848923ca.pdf cb41375c154e83b050a149ca0e10a923 PDF Text Text Lutz, John Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Name of War: World War II Interviewee’s Name: John Lutz Length of Interview: (1:02:08) Interviewed by: James Smither Transcribed by: Maluhia Buhlman Interviewer: “We’re talking today with John Lutz of Grosse Pointe Shores, Michigan and the interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project. Okay John start us off with some background on yourself and to begin with, where and when were you born?” I was born in Brooklyn, New York on May the 24th, 1919. That puts me a little over 100 years old. Interviewer: “Alright, now did you live in Brooklyn or where did you live when you were a kid?” (00:37) When I was kid– Actually before Brooklyn my mother went down to Brooklyn to have her baby, which was me, but actually my mother and father were living in the Bronx, New York at that time. We were there for about four or five years and then moved to a house out in what they call Queens, which is another borough of New York city and I stayed there until I went to college in– I went to MIT in Cambridge, Massachusetts. Interviewer: “Alright, now what was your family doing for a living, what kind of job did your father have?” My father was a manager of a textile company with headquarters in New York City and manufacturing was done, I think it was Passaic, New Jersey. �Lutz, John Interviewer: “Okay, and where did you go to high school?” I went to high school in Queens. Interviewer: “Do you remember which high school you attended?” Yeah, Newtown high school still in operation, I still bring it up occasionally on my computer to see what’s going on there and things are still going just the way I left them. Interviewer: “Alright, and what– When did you graduate?” 1936 and that’s when I went to college. Interviewer: “Okay, so you were just 17 at that point?” Yes. (2:15) Interviewer: “Okay, alright and now did you finish a year early or did you just time it right? Because normally graduate– You start college at 18 but you were still just 17, anyway.” I didn’t time it, it was just the way it came out. Interviewer: “Okay, now why did you go to MIT?” Well basically I guess it was I always wanted to be an engineer and I always wanted to go to the toughest school and my advisor in high school would always ask the students where they want to go, what they want to do, and when I mentioned to them that I wanted to go to MIT I can still hear them laughing and their “Oh you’ll never get in there.” That kind of a thing, and actually I graduated from Newtown high school in Queens with an extremely high grade average which got me right into MIT without any further examinations. �Lutz, John Interviewer: “Okay, alright so you were good enough after all. Well was Newtown a good high school as far as you can tell?” Yes, at the time it was very good. It’s of course, like many inner cities– And that I’d consider kind of inner city– Interviewer: “It is now.” The quality of education has, I think, deteriorated I don’t think the high school is quite as good as it used to be. Interviewer: “Okay, but you did well enough that MIT just went ahead and took you. Okay, now and then when you got to MIT did you find that you were well prepared for the classes or did you have to catch up?” (4:18) No, I wasn’t well prepared but I had to really work at– Work very hard in order to keep up, most– I would say a good percentage of the students that went to MIT went at least a year, maybe two years, to another college and then transferred in. So they had quite a background advantage over me, but I squeezed through. Interviewer: “Okay, you got through, alright and what degree did you take?” I think it was just a bachelor’s degree, basically in automotive engineering. Interviewer: “Okay, alright and what year did you graduate?” 1940. Interviewer: “Okay, and what did you do after you graduated?” �Lutz, John The funnest job I took was with a company down in Providence, Rhode Island called The Universal Winding Company and they had quite a program for new graduates where they would train them in all the different aspects of the manufacturing. We work in the machine shop, we work in the drafting department, we work in the foundry, we do all sorts of– And the background sounded good to me so I went down there until… Let’s see I’m just trying to figure out now what happened then, this, that job was in Providence, Rhode Island and just about every weekend I used to go up to Cambridge and see my old buddies and visit and so forth, and the word got around up there that one of the professors that I had, his name was Carl Fenstrom, was appointed the general manager of a newly formed shipyard sponsored by Newport News shipbuilding company, which was in Newport News, Rhode Island but– Interviewer: “Well Newport New is in Virginia.” It was Virginia, but this ship yard was being built in Wilmington, North Carolina and when I went down there to look at it the gentleman that was showing me around pointed to the empty acreage down there and said “We’re gonna build a shipyard there and we’re gonna build liberty ship because we’re gonna be getting in a war and we’ll need all the ships we can to get the personnel and the war material over to Europe.” (7:40) So that sounded interesting and I stayed down there for three years until I got a little antsy, I wanted to get involved in the war, not build ships back home. So I went up to Raleigh, North Carolina and signed up at the Navy station up there as an ensign, and they sent me to Princeton officer training school. Interviewer: “Okay, I want to back up a little bit and fill in some of that time period.” Sure. Interviewer: “Alright, so were you already in North Carolina when Pearl Harbor happened?” Yes, I was, December the 7th I was there. �Lutz, John Interviewer: “And do you remember how you heard about Pearl Harbor?” How I did? Interviewer: “Yeah, how did you learn about it?” Basically over the radio, yeah. Interviewer: “Alright now yow were already– Now because of what you were doing you were already aware of the possibility that we could get into the war cause they told you that.” Yeah. Interviewer: “Now were you expecting a war with Japan or were you just thinking about Europe?” (8:49) Would you say that again? Interviewer: “Were you expecting a war with Japan or were you mostly thinking about Europe?” I guess we were thinking of the entire picture, Europe, of course we had already– We hadn’t been officially in the war with Europe but you know we were helping everybody over there, certainly helping Great Britain and then I got– Then I wanted to get involved in that. Interviewer: “So the job that you had basically gave you a deferment?” Oh yes I had a deferment, yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, stay there as long as you wanted to.” �Lutz, John Yes. Interviewer: “Okay, now do you think it was still in 1943 when you signed up or would it have been ‘44 before you actually went?” I think I signed up in ‘43, at the end of ‘43 and I think I was called for active duty in ‘44, the beginning of ‘44. Interviewer: “Okay, and now take us back, so where did you do your Navy training? You sign up as an ensign but then they have to train you don’t they?” Yes, I went to officers training school in Princeton– Princeton, New Jersey, yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, and what did that training consist of?” Well we had to know all the aspects of navigation and all the other things that went along in trying to become a, you know, satisfactory officer. (10:35) Interviewer: “Alright, on a practical level I mean did they teach you– Were they teaching you anything about seamanship and navigation, that kind of thing?” Yes, absolutely. Interviewer: “Alright, and then did they also– I mean the enlisted men when they come in there’s a lot of emphasis on drill and discipline and all this kind of thing, did they do that with the officer candidates?” Well the officers all went to college and enlisted men went to naval training schools, one where we went to finally pick up our crew was in Camp Bradford outside of Norfolk down in Virginia, that’s where we put the crew together. �Lutz, John Interviewer: “Right, I guess I was asking if when they were training you as officers did they do any of the spit and polish stuff that the enlisted men had to do, you know how you wore your uniform, that kind of thing.” Oh very much so. Interviewer: “Okay, alright now when you finish– And how long did your training at Princeton last?” I think three months, yeah. Interviewer: “Alright and then what did they do with you after you finished that?” Well they sent us down to Camp Bradford down in Virginia. (12:10) Interviewer: “And what were you doing there?” Well we got out, we put on– Well they put our crew together. So we had the crew that was going to be on an LST plus all the other officers that were going to be there, and we trained together. Not only did we have like classroom studies but we had went out on LSTs out in the Chesapeake Bay and practiced running the ship, until finally they send you on your own and we were underway for– Well down the Mississippi river. Interviewer: “Okay well that was when you got your own LST right?” Yes, we got on a train at Camp Bradford and went to Seneca, Illinois where they were building LSTs and then took it down the river Mississippi. Interviewer: “Alright, now at this point what is your actual assignment on this ship? There are several officers so what job do you have?” �Lutz, John I was the engineering officer cause I was the one– I had more engineering training than anybody and some officers you know, and we had a gunnery officer, we had a navigation officer and we had a general officer who was in charge of supplying the ship for example. Interviewer: “Right okay, and so what does the engineering officer do?” Well he personally doesn’t do anything, he tells all the guys what to do but our job was to keep all the machinery running and because and LST’s basic function was to carry troops and vehicles, tanks for example, and just go full speed ahead and ram them up on the beach, open the big doors in front and disembark them. Interviewer: “So you’re responsible for those kinds of– All the machinery and the doors and all of that stuff.” Everything, yes. (14:57) Interviewer: “As well as the engines themselves?” Oh yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, alright now what do you remember about the trip down the Mississippi?” I guess getting the first taste of being down in the engine room and watching how things operated, what had to be done to make sure they were doing in good shape, couldn’t afford any breakdowns. Interviewer: “Now what time of year were you on the Mississippi? I think you’ve got that I guess in your chronology there.” �Lutz, John It’s probably on here. Interviewer: “Yeah, so I guess you– So it looks like the end of October when you actually started sailing.” I guess October. October, 26th of October we started down yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, alright do you remember if the– If you had to watch out for running aground or anything since you were sailing in the fall?” Yeah we weren’t allowed, and rightfully so, to navigate it ourselves. The Mississippi is a very tricky river, got a lot of twists and turns, a lot of sand– Interviewer: “Shoals.” Shoals, so you have to take on a pilot, so a pilot stayed with us the whole time steering us down the river. Well his particular section which he was most familiar with, then we get another pilot to take the rest of the way until we go to New Orleans. (17:08) Interviewer: “Okay, now were all of your crew new men or did you have some experienced sailors with you?” Oh I would say 90% of them were new, we had some guys that came from another ship but basically putting the crew together most of them are brand new. Interviewer: “Okay, alright and now you get down to New Orleans, do you get to go ashore there or do you just go off to sea?” No we had to store the ship up because going down the Mississippi we tried to keep the ship as light as possible, I mean there were no guns on the ship, anything with any weight was removed. Any of the dry goods or anything we had was taken off, the guns were taken off, the ammunition �Lutz, John was taken off. So when we were in New Orleans all that had to be put back on again, and then when that was all done we went down– New Orleans is about, I guess, 50, 60 miles up the river, so we had to go down the river into the gulf and we practiced steaming around the gulf in convoy with some other LSTs, practicing landing on the beach, until everybody– Whoever was in charge figured “Okay, you guys can do it by yourselves now.” And they sent us off to the South Pacific. Interviewer: “Okay, now before you left for the South Pacific did they load up the LST with all what you’re gonna take with you across the ocean?” Yeah. Interviewer: “Because on a shake down cruise you probably weren’t carrying a lot of troops and extra equipment.” Yes. Interviewer: “Yeah, so you’d have to go back and get those and then leave.” (19:11) Yeah. Interviewer: “Right, okay now was there anything– Do you remember what you were carrying as you crossed the Pacific, did you have any unusual cargo?” Part of the unusual cargo was whole things telephone poles, we had a bunch of them on board. Interviewer: “And then did you carry– Okay, I guess– So initially you go from New Orleans, you go to the Panama Canal? Did you go through the Panama Canal?” Yes, oh yes. Interviewer: “Okay, alright and what do you remember about that?” �Lutz, John Well it was very interesting maneuvers going through the canal with the locks and everything, filling them up with water and then emptying them in order to get over the ridges in the terrain. Interviewer: “Okay, now did any of the crew get to go ashore at one end or the other?” Oh yes, everybody got ashore and had a few days down there. I remember taking the train from where we were docked on the Atlantic side, you could take a train and it could take you all the way over to the Pacific side. It was an interesting little trip, it wasn’t a big trip, I don’t know 50 miles or something but it was very interesting. Interviewer: “Alright, now did you have to worry about some of the men going into bars and having that kind of thing?” Well I think we always worry about them and you’re always pulling some of them out and you have to go down the next morning and get them out of jail. (21:05) Interviewer: “Now was that something a junior officer would do sometimes?” No, they had MPs that are permanently stationed there, you know wherever there’s a bunch of sailors around and even the officers, watching out for them that they don’t get in trouble. Interviewer: “Alright, okay so you get to Panama and then from Panama what’s your next stop?” San Diego. Interviewer: “Okay, and then did you load anything new at San Diego or was that just fuel and food?” �Lutz, John That was pretty much– We were pretty much loaded up by that time and then from there we went over to Hawaii. Now in Hawaii the biggest thing that happened there is we took another amphibious landing craft, an LCT, and hoisted it and it was hoisted up on the main deck and we carried that little landing craft all the way over to Okinawa actually where we had to tip the ship over on it’s side and slide it off into the water. Interviewer: “Because it’s an LCT it’s a flat bottomed craft with a ramp on the front–” Yeah. Interviewer: “But it can carry four vehicles or something or four tanks something like–” Yeah, yeah. Interviewer: “So it’s bigger than the little Higgins boats the men land in, so more substantial landing craft but it’s not an ocean going craft.” (22:47) No. Interviewer: “So you were carrying it?” Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, well–” Well actually they did take them over the ocean individually too. Interviewer: “Okay.” Yeah. �Lutz, John Interviewer: “They’re probably not very fast.” But it took a long time and it was a pretty rough ride I imagine, I never was on one. Interviewer: “Right, okay you’ve got that kind of sitting right there in the middle of your deck, now inside the ship did you have vehicles or– Cause I think there’s something here about having LVTs on the tank deck and those are amphibious landing vehicles.” Yeah, which one was it? Interviewer: “The LVT.” LVT yeah that’s the smaller one that would take maybe just only one. Interviewer: “I think an LVT is a tracked vehicle, it’s like an amphibious tank almost but carries men.” (23:42) Yes. Interviewer: “Okay, alright so you’ve got plenty of stuff and– So you leave Pearl Harbor and we’ve got that and then you head across the Pacific from there so kind of late January you leave.” Yeah, down to the Solomon Islands. Interviewer: “Okay, now in the process you cross the equator?” Yes. Interviewer: “Okay, did your ship have a ceremony for crossing the equator or did they not do that?” �Lutz, John A ceremony? Interviewer: “Yeah.” Oh I’ll say. Interviewer: “Can you describe the ceremony?” Well I think if the Japanese had seen us with the shenanigans that went onboard the ship, they would have surrendered right then and said “Those guys are crazy.” But oh they sprayed you with different solutions like mustard or something like that, wash your mouth you with soapy water, all the Halloween kind of stuff you know, and I know I had to put on some long underwear– We carried long underwear by the way in case the LST was assigned to, say the Aleutian Islands or something like that and I was given the long periscope so I could– Telescope, and my job was trying the find the– What is it, the equator. (25:50) So my job was trying to find that but I never did find it, but it was all those kinds of shenanigans and the flag that was flown was a pirate’s flag, yeah. We would have scared anybody that saw us, wondering what’s going on. Interviewer: “Alright, now did the captain have to go through this too or had he been across already?” No, no, the captain and the executive officer was probably still up on the deck– In the wheelhouse making sure we weren’t running into any other ships because we weren’t by ourselves we were– I forget how many were with us but maybe a half a dozen LSCs. Interviewer: “Okay, so you’re sailing in a convoy?” Yes, and we got down to the Solomon Islands by then. �Lutz, John Interviewer: “Okay, and what happened once you got there?” Once we got there we again did an awful lot of practicing with other LSC in getting ready for the inevitable landings that were going to take place on the islands MacArthur’s goal was to proceed to Japan with an island jumping process rather than take every island as he went up he was going around the islands. So what we were doing, we were practicing and practicing and practicing again until we finally loaded up with some Marines, I guess they were Marines at the time rather than Army, and went up to another place in preparation for the– Interviewer: “Yeah, Ulithi Atoll is what you’ve got listed here, Ulithi is in the Caroline Islands.” Ultihi. Interviewer: “Yeah.” (27:56) Yeah, Ulithi. Interviewer: “Alright, that’s kind of an assembly point and now–” Yes, very big atoll and a lot, a lot of ships could be anchored in there quite safely and that’s how we were ready to go to Okinawa. Interviewer: “Okay, now tell us about the trip to Okinawa. How large was the fleet around you or what did you see?” Oh it was a tremendously large fleet, I never saw any gathering of ships that was quite that large and were getting ready for April the 1st and then we were– I think they called it Yellow Beach One or something like that. Interviewer: “So they’re listing Yellow Beach Two on the chronology here.” �Lutz, John There’s a two, yeah. Interviewer: “Alright, and so what does your ship do, what does your LST do initially?” What we did, in that particular case, we had big pontoons on the side of each side of the ship which– Well first thing we do is, I guess get rid of that LCT, and then we dropped the pontoons ff and the pontoons were tied stern to– You know, head on and then there’s bulldozers in the front and they get as close to the beach with the pontoon as you could and then bulldozers would make a ramp like up to these pontoons and if you had tanks the tanks would roll of, if you had armored vehicles they would roll off. Interviewer: “Alright, and you had your LVTs and your Marines to unload.” Yes. (30:16) Interviewer: “Okay, now on that first day did you get fired upon or see enemy aircraft or was it quiet?” No, it was quite quiet the first day and then later on the kamikazes then started coming over. Interviewer: “Well after you unloaded the Marines and the LVTs and so forth, did you just stay at Okinawa or did you go back and get more supplies and come back?” No, we stayed there for a while so that we could– So if the need arose that we could take the Marines off one section of the beach and go around the other end of the island, which we did to another section and dump them off there so that we could go around the Japanese. So we kept doing that for a month I guess it was and then we left there. We damaged our propeller at one place when we were trying to get in on a beach and we ran the ship into a reef and bent several blades I guess on the propeller and we couldn’t maintain full speed. We had to cut back on the speed quite a bit to prevent some further damage to the internal combustion engines, which was �Lutz, John the same engine used in locomotives by the way, about 1,000 horsepower, so we had to go back, I forget where we went after that. Interviewer: “It says the Philippines.” To the Philippines? Interviewer: “To Leyte, yeah.” And had to get into a dry dock and the, I guess the propellers were either exchanged or repaired, in some way they were fixed. Interviewer: “Alright, now before that you had been under attack by kamikazes.” Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, can you describe what that was like or what happened to your ship?” (32:34) Well that was the most dangerous thing was the kamikazes and of course in the day time they fired on them all the time and actually those LSTs can put up quite a wall of fire. If you can get a whole bunch of them out there shooting at those airplanes you can knock quite a few of them out of the sky and at nighttime when they came over we had what they call fog machines and you put up a blanket of fog where you just, you hid in the fog. They couldn’t see you, you couldn’t see them so you just sat there covered with a whole bunch of fog. Interviewer: “Okay, so what did the Kamikazes do at that point, do they just drive into the fog and hope to hit something?” Well they were just dropping bombs down at that time I would imagine, I don’t imagine– �Lutz, John Interviewer: “Well a kamikaze was designed to go one direction and not actually land anywhere. Now they had regular bombers as well, so they had regular aircraft, maybe that’s what they used at night. So if you don’t remember much of kamikazes plunging into the water at night–” No. Interviewer: “Then probably that was bombers they were using.” No, no. Interviewer: “Yeah, but the kamikazes were going to fly directly into your ship?” Yes. Interviewer: “Now how close did your ship get to being hit by a kamikaze?” (34:00) Quite close, it was a Sid Lenger that his gun crew, he and Goldie as a matter of fact, were on the gun crew that shot down a kamikaze that almost got us and I think as he was– As it was coming towards us the pilot apparently was hit by something and pulled back just to check back on the reaction from the gun and went up and over the ship actually or we wouldn’t be sitting here talking because he would have come right into the side of the ship right where the engine room was and right where John O. Lutz was. Interviewer: “Okay, so as the engineering officer your job general quarter station would be within the engine room?” Yes. Interviewer: “Okay, alright now did you ever observe kamikaze attacks from on deck or were you always down below?” �Lutz, John No, once in a while when it seemed to be a little bit slowing down in the activity we would, a couple at a time would go up and take a look around and then when it got a little more active they scoot down the engine room again. Interviewer: “Alright, okay so you kind of– So you’re off of Okinawa during April, you go back to the Philippines to get repaired, now it looks like in your chronology here that you’re there from 29th of April to the 23rd of June. So how did you spend your time in the Philippines then, did you have duties on board ship or did you go ashore?” A little of both I guess, I remember going ashore and the men went ashore. They had a little time in Manila and a couple other– Couple of other islands there, Cebu was one, Mindanao was another one, there was a few islands that we visited. Interviewer: “Yeah, did you see much of the Filipino population or–” (36:40) Yeah, they were going out about their business and– Just trying to think of where, I think things were– I think the people tried to get as long as much, as best they could. In the villages and the towns around there little shanties, little shacks were open for selling goods and fruits and vegetables and things like that. Interviewer: “And did they seem to like the Americans?” Well I think they looked at us like their savior, you know after all it was either us or somebody. Interviewer: “Yeah, or the Japanese.” Right, and they didn’t have much love for the Japanese. Interviewer: “Okay, now did you get to Manila yourself?” �Lutz, John Did I what? Interviewer: “Did you go to Manila?” Yes. Interviewer: “Okay, and what did you see there?” Oh a lot of the buildings were just in shambles really they were, as a result of our gunfire and the Japanese gunfire. Japanese had– Was in charge there and then when they evacuated it they blew up a lot of the buildings. Interviewer: “Alright, so you have some time in the Philippines and then you load back up again and so how do you spend the last month or so of the war? So kind of July of ‘45 into August, were you moving supplies?” (38:37) Well we were getting– We were really getting ready to go into Japan you know, the– I guess it was on the schedule we had the next one until they dropped the atomic bomb. Interviewer: “And do you remember hearing news of the bomb being dropped?” Yeah it came in over the radio of course. Interviewer: “Okay, and at the moment it happened did you understand what that meant or was it really only when the Japanese surrender that you figure it out?” I guess we didn’t realize how devastating something like that could be, the biggest thing in our minds was the war was over, we were gonna go home, that was number one. Interviewer: “So before that were you moving supplies around to get ready for the invasion?” �Lutz, John Yes. Interviewer: “Okay, alright now after the Japanese surrender now what does your LST do?” Well then our task became to get the Japanese soldiers back home, the quicker they went back home, the less of a problem Japan would be. They could go to work, they could go back to farming if they were farming, they can go back and try to rebuild some of the factories and they wouldn’t be quite the burden then if we just left them alone. So I think it was a wise mood to get as many as you could, get them back home, and that little booklet that I made there is one whole trip from Palau, which was some islands down there in the South Pacific, taken home this whole group of Japanese soldiers and depositing them outside Tokyo actually. Interviewer: “Alright now in your chronology here that comes in December of ‘45 but you’ve been to Japan already before that cause you went to Yokohama earlier, cause your chronology says that you went to Manila at the end August, picked up the 118th engineer combat battalion and took them to Yokohama.” (41:12) Uh-huh, okay. Interviewer: “Do you remember doing that?” No, I don’t. Yeah and then we went up to another island called Hokkaido, we did that and took a group up there and then from Hokkaido we got a little shore leave. The war was over by that time and I took the train over to Sapporo, Sapporo by the way was headquarters for the winter olympics at one time. Interviewer: “Right, back in 1972 or some six or something like that.” Yeah, you’re pretty much up on your stuff there. �Lutz, John Interviewer: “Well I’m old enough to remember that.” Yeah. Interviewer: “So I watched that one on television but yeah okay, so you– Now when you go ashore in Japan how did the Japanese people behave towards you?” I thought they did very good, we had some jeeps that we had confiscated along the way, we had three jeeps on board the ship. We grabbed one to go for a little ride and I remember we were going along, something happened to our jeep, they come running out of the house and fix it or whatever it was, change a tire and– No they were very– When the Japanese emperor said “Stop fighting” they stopped fighting right then and there and we could drive all over with no problems at all. Went downtown Japan, downtown Tokyo, and went through several of the big stores that was still operating. Most of Tokyo was destroyed by the fires, we used to drop incendiary bombs on them, by far we killed more people that way than with– (43:35) Interviewer: “The atomic bomb.” Explosives, yeah. Interviewer: “Did it surprise you at all that the Japanese were as friendly as they were?” I guess it did, it really did because I really– They could have killed any one of us and nobody really would’ve known it, only that we didn’t show up on the ship that night and I remember we– On one little jeep expedition that we were driving around we put a couple cans of sardines in a knapsack and so that if we got hungry along the way we could stop and eat, which we did, I think there’s about two or three of us in a jeep and we sat down on a curb and opened up the sardines we were eating, and the Japanese ladies in the house that was there came out with tea, served us tea, didn’t know whether to take it or not but they were very, very courteous. You’ll find out �Lutz, John reading that little write up that I have there what a perfect gentleman the– I think he was a colonel or a lieutenant colonel– Interviewer: “The Japanese– The commander of the Japanese unit you were moving out.” Right, what a perfect gentleman he was and kept his troops on board ship under control and wrote a nice little letter there, which I got a copy of the original, thanking us for bringing them home even though I think he said three of them died on the way, couldn’t put them all on the tank deck, that was full, so a lot of them just had to stay up on the main deck and the food they had was rice and you’ll see pictures there of our cooks with the help of their cooks scooping out rice into the little containers. Interviewer: “Alright, let’s talk a little bit more fully here about that last trip. So you go down to Palau which is gonna pass the Philippines I guess, or south of there a little bit, and Palau that larger set of islands, one of the islands in that area was Peleliu.” (46:17) Yes it was. Interviewer: “Where the Marines fought a very tough battle but the main island of Palau itself I guess is where you went to and there was a Japanese unit there that had been the garrison that was still there at the end of the war.” Right. Interviewer: “So your job was to take that home?” Right. Interviewer: “Okay, so just sort of take us through the sequence of events, the LST comes into the harbor at Palau.” �Lutz, John Right. Interviewer: “And then what happens?” Well I guess nothing much, they all came down to the docks there and their officers, you know directed them on board the ship, and you’ll see one of our guys there telling them, directing them to go here, go there, and so forth and no problem at all and that’s the interesting thing, when they said “Stop fighting.” They stopped fighting. Interviewer: “What physical condition were they in, did they look healthy and well fed, were they kind of thin?” I guess I didn’t look too closely, at that time I was looking at other things but I would think that one of the problems on those islands where they couldn’t get supplies from their own fleet would be lack of food, although I don’t know why they didn’t fish. (47:38) Interviewer: “Well they might have.” They might have in addition to that but no they were just packing up their gear, folding blankets, you can see them folding blankets and just going on board ship and one little space would be they’d sit down there and I’d be there till they got home. Interviewer: “Alright, now did any of them speak English?” Not that I recall. Interviewer: “Okay, and did you have anybody on board who spoke Japanese?” No. Interviewer: “Okay, so you just had to kind of communicate as best you could?” �Lutz, John Now I say anybody, the colonel did, the one in charge did, he did there was two of them that were in charge actually and you can see his picture in there, he’s a very distinguished looking guy and he spoke English, he may have even gone to school in the United States as a lot of them did you know. Interviewer: “Yeah, alright and then when you were taking them back up to Japan did you have bad weather or–” Yes, we did, we had– And I got some pictures of the bad weather we got there and everybody got sick as usual, they more frequently than sailors who are more used to that than the land based troops you know. Interviewer: “Right, so when you first went to sea did you get seasick?” I never got really seasick, no not really bad, I’d feel a little queasy but some guys got really seasick and of course all they wanted to do was lie down. (49:34) Well if they lie down somebody else has to take their watch so we wouldn’t allow that, no lying down the only thing you could do is– And they did that quite often, is they take a gallon– A lot of the food came in gallons, tomatoes would come in a gallon canister and we’d tie a gallon can with a string around their neck so they’d have some place– We didn’t want it in the bilges you know or on the deck, but after a few days of getting used to rolling around– There were a couple lessons, they were either fooling or not, had to be transferred off on occasion, not that particular place but any other place because they were just allergic to it they couldn’t stand it and of course we had a pharmacist made on board ship and he’s the guy who used to dole out the shots and check everybody to make sure they were alright, do what he could for them, he was even also trained to do minor operations. The ward room which is the dining room for the officers had a big table on it where we ate, course that became the operating table, we never had to use it thank goodness but if someone had appendicitis he was at least trained to do something about [unintelligible]. �Lutz, John Interviewer: “Now did the ship ever have any combat casualties, did anybody ever get hit with shrapnel or bullets or things like that?” No, they never did. Interviewer: “Okay, so after you dropped off the Japanese prisoners, you get back to Tokyo Bay, unload them, now what happens to you and the LST?” To me? Interviewer: “Yeah.” We were just sitting in the harbor up there, I think we made one trip up to Otaru which was a port near Hokkaido where you could get a train actually and go up to Sapporo and that’s about it. Made one trip up there as I recall and just hung around the harbor a little bit, for a few days until we got word that the Japanese merchant marine was gonna take it over. (52:22) Interviewer: “Okay, so we’re helping rebuild Japan by giving them the LST.” Yeah, they got the LST and our guys spent half the time switching gauges around trying to fool them so they wouldn’t know what gauge to watch in the engine room, sort of nasty but– Interviewer: “Yeah, okay so now from there do you get sent back home?” Yes and I came right home. Interviewer: “Okay, and how did you get home because your ship is still in Japan?” Well yeah, let’s see now… I was– I asked my captain to give me a pass to discharge me right there in Tokyo and I used that to go over to the airport and I bummed a ride home on a transport that was going taking some Washington officials back to Washington actually and I got a ride all �Lutz, John the way to Midway, I guess it was Midway and then the next hop I got was the Philippines and then from the Philippines I got another hop over to outside San Francisco, someplace over there, I forget what the name of the airport was. Interviewer: “Do you think you– So you went from Midway to the Philippines because that’d be the wrong direction?” No, I went to– Interviewer: “Or did you go Philippines to Midway and then home?” Yeah, Philippines– No I didn’t go to the Philippines, no I went to Midway right over, I think it was from Tokyo to midway. Interviewer: “That would make sense, yeah.” (54:37) Midway to Hawaii, Hawaii over to San Francisco, some place over there and then from there to Kansas, Olathe– Interviewer: “Olathe, Kansas.” Olathe, Kansas and from Kansas was the last hop I got and that landed in Washington, D.C, yeah. In Washington, D.C, yeah where I took the train, where I took the train up to Philadelphia because that’s where I was living at the time I went into the service. Interviewer: “Okay, cause I guess I thought you had been working in North Carolina or had they–” No, I had been working at Baldwin locomotive works where we were making engines, actually the same engine was made in these locomotive companies as appeared in a lot of these ships. �Lutz, John Interviewer: “Alright, okay so now that you’re out of the Navy, 1946.” I’m out of the Navy. Interviewer: “Now what do you do?” I went to work at the Baldwin locomotive works, yeah I went back to them. Interviewer: “Okay, and how long did you stay with them?” Not too long because I had a job offer to go some place else to a company that offered me a chief engineer job and we made piston rings which was in Philadelphia. Yeah, which was finally acquired by Ex-Cell-O corporation, and Ex-Cell-O corporation was finally acquired by Textron which is still– I guess they’re still active in the area here, the Detroit area, supplying parts to the automobile company and that’s it, I retired from there. (57:30) Interviewer: “Okay, now along the way though you stayed in the naval reserves when you came out.” Yes. Interviewer: “Okay, and so what happens when the– After the Korean War starts?” After what? Interviewer: “When the Korean War starts.” Oh yeah, well I was in the reserves of course and the reason you stayed in the reserves– I did it for the money actually, I was young and had just got married and every dollar that you could make was welcome. So basically I stayed in the reserve and but then when the war came, you know they grabbed me and put me on the Adria. �Lutz, John Interviewer: “Okay, and what kind of ship was the Adria?” The Adria was a refrigerated cargo ship and that was one big ice box, you know and the job was to go around the Atlantic. The furthest away we went was I guess down in– We went to Africa and we went down to Trinidad was a base, Bermuda, Argentia which was up in Newfoundland, picking up supplies in the Norfolk area, there’s a big naval supply depot in Norfolk. We pick up the frozen goods and everything and take it up to whoever the next stop was. Interviewer: “Yeah, did you go to Europe or just Africa and the Caribbean?” No, we went to– Africa was like Casablanca. Interviewer: “Okay so Morrocco.” Yeah. (59:35) Interviewer: “Okay, but you didn’t go to England or France or Italy?” No, no, no. Interviewer: “Alright, and what was your job on board that ship?” Same thing, engineering officer. Interviewer: “Okay, now were the other officers World War II veterans or were they younger?” Some were and some weren’t. Interviewer: “Okay, alright and how long was your obligation to stay on that ship?” �Lutz, John Two years. Interviewer: “Okay, and so what does your family do during those two years?” What? Interviewer: “What did your family do during those two years, did your wife just stay at home and–” Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, and did you have much contact while you were away?” Oh yeah, well see the Adria’s headquarters was Norfolk, Newport News is in that area, that’s where the big naval supply depot was but we would– We were tied up at the Norfolk Naval Base quite a few times. (1:00:54) Yeah, quite a bit and I was in charge of– I guess I was the senior watch officer, I used to assign watches, when officers stood and I always worked it out that I had the weekends of because while their families were in Norfolk because a lot of them were Navy men, my family was in Philadelphia and I used to leave Friday afternoon and don’t get back until Sunday night, or Monday morning early. So I got home quite a bit then, put in my time until the two years was up. Interviewer: “Okay, now you stayed in the reserves after that?” Yes. Interviewer: “Okay now– So how long did you stay in?” 22 years. �Lutz, John Interviewer: “Okay, because like I said it had you retiring out in 1964.” Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay.” � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context LutzJ2326V Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lutz, John Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2019-08 Title A name given to the resource Lutz, John (Interview transcript and video), 2019 Description An account of the resource John Lutz was born on May 24, 1919 in Brooklyn, New York, and attended high school in Queens. He graduated high school in 1936 and went on to attend the Massachusetts Institute of Technology to become an engineer. In 1940, he earned his bachelor’s degree in automotive engineering and eventually went to work for the Newport News Shipbuilding Company in North Carolina. After three years Lutz wanted a more active role in the ongoing Second World War, so he traveled to Raleigh, North Carolina, where he enlisted into the Navy in late 1943. For Basic Training, he was transferred to Officers Training School in Princeton, New Jersey, for three months. He was then sent to Camp Bradford, Virginia, where he practiced operating in an LST (tank landing ship) crew as an Engineering Officer. From there, he and his crew shipped out to the South Pacific. When traveling through Hawaii, Lutz’s ship also took on the cargo of a smaller LCT (tank landing craft) which they transported to Okinawa. For the invasion of Okinawa, Lutz’s LST was outfitted with pontoons, which helped during the unloading of the LCT. Once all the men and gear the ship was carrying had made it ashore, kamikaze pilots became more of a threat as Lutz’s LST began transferring Marines between different beaches and landing points along the island’s coast. Despite a close encounter, his LST was never struck by a kamikaze pilot. While transferring troops to another beach, his ship struck a coral reef, damaging one of its propeller’s blades, and were forced to travel south to Leyte Gulf in the Philippines for repairs. After the Japanese surrender, his LST transferred troops and supplies into mainland Japan to help with the rebuilding process. His ship was also assigned to help transport a Japanese unit, originally stationed in Palau. Lutz was then discharged at Tokyo Bay and took a series of flights back to the United States. In 1946, he went to work for Baldwin Automotive Company and joined the Navy Reserves. After the outbreak of the Korean War, he was called up again and was assigned to the USS Adria. Lutz remained in the Navy reserves for 22 years before retiring in 1964. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States—History, Military Veterans Video recordings Other veterans & civilians—Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d51fff9d26891ff91bb215d3ae533b73.mp4 b3d023ad7ff143bfdb9e08e0a0f0eaec https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/825bae5642acd6952dc9e4882d16b2c9.pdf bd53195b8b7fe23ec394618a6495ddcf PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: Melchior Lux Interviewed by James Smither Transcribed by Sarah Schneider (0:30) We’re talking today with Melchior Lux of Warren Michigan. He goes by “Mike” so that’ll be what we’ll be calling him. The interviewer today is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veteran’s Project. Ok, uh Mike give us a little bit of background, um where and when were you born? (0:47) I was born in 1935 in Filipowa, that used to be part of Backi Gracac, it’s Serbia now. (1:00) Ok, Serbia. So what country was it part of when you were born? (1:04) It was…When I was born, it was probably Hungarian. The Hungarians, they move back and forth. (1:15) Ok, but in Serbia were you in Yugoslavia? (1:17) Yugoslavia, yeah, yeah. (1:19) Ok, what year were you born? (1:20) 1935. (1:22) Ok, uh so you were born there and tell me a little about your family background. (1:27) My family. Well my father had his own business. He…he was in the hemp business, my mother and so was also my brother. My brother worked for my father. (1:42) Ok, how old was your brother when you were born. (1:45) 10. �(1:47) Ok, so the Hemp business. So you made rope? (1:50) Hemp. They made from the raw material, they made it. They worked it so they can make, so they could spin ropes. So that’s uh … they had not machines, everything was done by hand. (2:10) Ok, and what language were you speaking as a kid? (2:11) German. (2:13) Ok, so describe the town that you grew up in a little bit. What was that like? (2:18) The town was just a, it was mostly farmers and people that worked for the farmers. There was no other industry. (2:30) Ok, and what ethnic group were they from? (2:33) They were German, all German. 100%, the whole town was 100% German. It was one of the, I don’t know if there were any other towns that were 100% German. Most the towns were, the majority were Germans. They had Hungarians and Serbs. Usually the Serbs used to work for the farmers. And that’s where a lot of heat came in after…in the Second World War. (3:09) Ok, now back up a little bit. Do you know how long the German population had been in that area? (3:16) I’d say about 200 years. (3:19) Ok, because there’s a period in time in the 18th century when the Austrians were pushing the Ottoman-Turkish Empire back. And then how did the German population get there, or why did they go? (3:30) Pardon me? �(3:31) Why did the Germans move there? (3:33) They got promised like parcels of rent if they go there, if they worked rent or cultivated. And that’s how that all started. (3:47) So the area that you’re in is, ethnically, you have all these different groups and all these different places? (3:53) You have different towns have different ethnic background. Like, we had a town that’s like two kilometers – I don’t know if it’s Southwest, East or North – they were mostly… those were people who came out of Czechoslovakia. They spoke a different language; they spoke more like Serbian. And then you had another town, they had people from Ukraine, from Russia. But, the majority in the area was mostly Germans or Serbs. (4:32) Ok, alright, so you’re born in 1935 um then in 1941 the Germans invade. (4:40) They came in, yeah. They didn’t invade, they just marched in. (4:44) Yeah, legally it’s still an invasion. (4:47) Yeah. Most of like our people walk with the Germans naturally because we were German. (4:55) Ok, now while you were, I mean I’m not sure how much you were aware of it I guess, while the government was Yugoslavia, the Yugoslavian government was dominated by the Serbs. How did the Yugoslavian government treat the Germans in the country? (5:10) I couldn’t really tell. I was too little. But, like I told you before, we were actually like the city hall was run by Hungary because Hungary and Germany they were allies at that time [after the Germans took over Yugoslavia], so our city hall was actually run by the Hungarian �government. Like the police, they were Hungarians. Everybody was scared of them. I remember that as a kid, and through later when I grew up and my folks talked about it. (5:49) Ok, now could the Hungarians speak German. (5:53) I… everyone thought the official language in the city hall was like Hungarian at that time. But, like the schools, was, we had German, but we had, it was mandatory that you take – I don’t know if it was one hour or two hours – we had to speak Hungarian, we learned Hungarian words. (6:18) Ok, so during that period, sort of during 1941, 42, 43, 44 while you were still living in that town what was your daily life like? (6:30) What the daily life? Kids were on their own because it was a poor area. All the grown-ups had to work. We went to school, after school we played, when it was time for dinner you went home because you know dinner was like at 5 or 6 o’clock, you had to be home. (6:59) Ok, now did you have enough food? (7:01) We had more food than we could uh, I told you there was like the breadbasket of Yugoslavia. That area where I come from. (7:14) Ok, because in sometimes the Germans might come and take a lot of the food away or the Hungarians might. (7:20) Not, not, not that time. That was all after the war was over. Then, well we had food, they put us in the concentration camps and that’s when everything stopped. (7:37) Ok, alright, now during the time then where you’re still living at home when the Germans came through, do you remember seeing any kind of Nazi things like Swastika flags? �(7:50) Oh, yeah everybody had Swastika flags on their house. That’s, I told you, there was, but there was mostly the rich people were against Hitler and the people, like my folks, the average guy was for Hitler. Because, you know, it was better when he was in power that time. (8:18) In what way was it better? (8:20) Well, I guess economically. We had no idea, that is the propaganda machine, we all liked Hitler as a kid. We all tried to join the Hitler Youth. You couldn’t join that until you were 10, but we couldn’t wait until we were 10. We just never made it, I never made it ‘til I was 10. (8:47) Ok, and why was the Hitler Youth attractive? (8:52) Well, I guess… (8:53) Like, the uniforms or (8:56) Naturally the uniforms. We all got wooden guns. You know, like a carbine, like a rifle. When the Americans used to fly down to Romania to bomb the oil fields, the whole sky was like silver. Us kids used to go in the ditch and shoot, pretend to shoot the planes down. (9:26) You saw yourselves as Germans? (9:29) Yeah. (9:30) And so, now you’re part of Germany, you’re allied with Germany so at that point as a kid that was sort of natural. (9:38) Right, exactly. That was the only language I ever spoke was German. (9:45) Ok, now in your area was there any kind of Partisan activity? �(9:52) Very little, but there was yeah. In fact we had like places we could only go so far because, you know, when you go out of town we know points that was the end because I told you like two kilometers away them people were for Tito, you know, and there were a lot of parties and activities they used to captures kids and sometimes burn like a swastika in their face or in their back. That happened. I didn’t see it, but, you know, we were told. (10:35) Alright, now if you think back in that period before your family had to move out are there other particular memories that stay with you? (10:50) Not really, because, like I said, we grew up, all the kids, you grew up independent. You know, you had basically, you know right from wrong, we were taught right from wrong. You didn’t do anything bad because, you know, that just didn’t happen. (11:14) Ok, did you have brothers and sisters who were close to your own age? (11:17) No. My brother is 10 years older. He was in the German army. My sister was 9 years older. She had to go to work. (11:29) So, you really were by yourself? (11:31) I was by… my father had his shop in the back, there was a building. So, if I did need somebody, I would go to him, which I didn’t need to really. We just grew up and you got up in the morning, you washed your face, put your own food on the table, ate, got dressed, and went to school. (11:57) Ok, alright. Now I guess at the end of 1944 things changed a little. (12:03) Changed, once the Germans were out in October 1944, the Partisans came into town. And then the rations started, like you got one box of matches for a month and the food was never �rationed because everyone had plenty food. And they took all the radios away, the bicycles, the jewelry. In the beginning it wasn’t so much, but after a month, like in the beginning of October they came in, by the end of October they used to go in houses and just take what they want. (12:58) Ok, now the Partisans were they Croatian? Were they Serbs? (13:04) The Partisans mostly were people like Serbs that used to work for the farmers and now they were not the helper, now they were they were the boss. So, that’s how it basically worked, but, and then they also, well, half the town retreated with the Germans that fled back to Germany. We were on the wagon already, but my sister didn’t want to go, she made a lot of fuss, so my mother pulled out. My father was in the German army, so was my brother. (13:48) Ok, at what point did your father have to join the German army? (13:52) The beginning of ’44. Everybody had to join if you wanted to go out and hunt. They, actually, they got a rifle and they got five…first they wore like guarding to town, because we had like five factories that worked hemp and they started burning. And you know, the Partisans used to come there and tried to light them up. So, they, first they wore like, uh, just like guards. (14:28) Yeah, like police or security guards? (14:30) Yeah and then in the middle of ’44, he had to join the German army just before they retreated. (14:40) Ok, so he retreated along with them, then? (14:43) Well he was in the army. He got us, actually, he got us a wagon so we could go. His commander gave him some, he probably lied to him, he gave him a wagon and told him, “Make sure that your kids and your wife flee.” And we were, it was just like the 49ers go out west. �That’s how they said like maybe 20 – 30 wagons and they all stayed together. They had one leader, I guess. (15:21) But in the end you didn’t go … (15:23) We didn’t go, so that’s … then it got bad and they used to uh, my mother and my sister, they used uh to go to work – everybody that was able to work – the Partisans would come and they had to do, I don’t know exactly, they just took them out of town. Like my mother was in … there was a German airfield where they had to go flatten it out because it got, they used a plough and they had to level the ground off again. And my sister, I don’t know where she had to work, they used to come home at night and right after Christmas they got a certain age group and they told them that they had to come and form at the city hall and then they told them to go home and bring fifteen days’ worth of food and clothes and then they took them and I don’t know where they went. They ended up in Russia, of course we didn’t know it at that time. My sister was like five years in Russia. (16:45) In Russia? (16:47) As a prisoner, yeah. There was like, Tito promised Russia for his work heads [camps?] he had to send workers. So that was the where there was a certain age group. Like my cousin she had two little babies, she had to leave them behind. (17:13) Did they target ethnic Germans? (17:16) That’s all there was, was Germans, yeah ethnic Germans. Matter of fact, if you had … There were some Germans who had a slavish [Slavic] name and they had it a little better, but that was only a few families. But, basically all the Germans in a certain age group, a certain percentage, they just took out and shipped them to Russia. �(17:50) Now, did you stay with your mother? (17:53) I stayed with my mother then, and then a few weeks later my mother had to go. They picked her up of course we didn’t know where she was, she just never came back home. She ended up in a hard labor camp and so I was sleeping by myself in the house and I saw the neighbors and I had my aunt she lived right next door to me. But, mostly I was by school friends their parents, ate there and then by night I had to go home and sleep by myself. That’s the scary part, that what I remember. (18:40) Now how long did that go on? (18:42) That went on for like two months. Then, on Good Friday ’45, I was in March. They came and started in one end of the town and went house to house, like three Partisans or two Partisans, and they came in if there was somebody in the house they could take whatever they want of course you couldn’t take that and you have five minutes to leave. They started on the North end and I lived on the South end. And, because there was a great big meadow, I could view houses from my house and we all, the whole town, got put in the meadow with whatever you took along. They kept us there all afternoon and then at night they put us two streets before the railroad station. They put I don’t know how many people in each house, whatever it took and then the following Saturday we were put in cattle wagons and we got shipped out to, it was a town we called it a concentration camp, it was a town. You had like a regular bedroom, you had like maybe ten people that are sleeping on the floor. They put straw in there and that’s how it was and then you had one … there was one house there was like a kitchen and that’s where you picked up your food and you got a coffee cup full of ground cole [cabbage] and water soup without salt, without grease. And I went there with my aunt and my aunt had two little babies so I basically as a ten year old, I actually was nine and a half, and I had to help her. �(21:28) I think before you had mentioned that you had an aunt with two babies that you said had to go away? (21:34) Pardon me? (21:35) Didn’t she … Did you have an aunt who was taken away along with your sister? Or was that a different person? (21:40) No, that was the two babies’ mother that got taken away. She was also in Russia, but she died. (21:49) Ok, so the babies are left with what is really their grandmother? (21:51) With their grandmother, yes. (21:53) That was your aunt? (21:55) That was my aunt, yeah. And when they took us in the concentration camp I just, well they took everybody you had no choice. (22:07) Was this camp still in Yugoslavia? (22:08) Yes. (22:12) Were there Partisans guarding you? (22:14) Yes, there were Partisans guarding the whole town. Each street they had soldiers; you know big guns. That was day and night. There was no wire, but we used to sneak out at night and go begging but that’s because the food was so bad. (22:38) So, when you went begging where would you go? �(22:40) We went to a city that was basically inhabited by Serbs and Hungarians and we’d sneak out at like twelve o’clock at night because we know when the guards change and so on. We’d walk, we’d go out of town and there were piles of straw from farmers and we’d crawl in their until it got daylight and then we’d walk like 15 km, or like 10 miles something like that it’s a little less than 10 miles. (23:22) Ok, and then when you would beg would you try to go to Hungarian families? (23:25) No, we’d go from house to house. The Hungarians were not too fond of the Germans but the Serbs, the Serbian people, were good. I mean not everyone gave you something, but most people gave you a little bit. (23:48) Now, did you have the sense that most of the Serbs didn’t like the Partisans either? (23:53) No, I wouldn’t know. I would not know because most of the Partisans came from … it just was there were guys that used to be workers for the farms, there were stories going around, they were really bad. (24:14) So, it’s just a very difficult time and a very confusing time. (24:20) But it was, we didn’t know. You know, as a kid you don’t know. Besides being hungry, we all were hungry that’s why you went begging. Especially for my aunt who helped the little kids. I mean, I called them little one was a year and a half the other was like three. So, every little bit helped but I just stuck along. (24:57) Now the Partisans, so they weren’t like taking roll every day? They weren’t counting all the people every day? (25:03) No, no, no. �(25:05) They just didn’t want you to leave? (25:06) Matter of fact when we used to go back a lot of times they intercepted us so once they had officers they had fifteen, twenty, intercepted. We used to go begging in groups of three or four. You know, you get out all alone you know and then you meet each other at a certain point, but when they used to intercept us, and then they made us sing Hitler songs. They all, most of them could speak some German probably and then they beat us up. That was their sport. (25:46) Ok, but they weren’t lining you up and shooting you or things like that? (25:49) No, no, no. (25:50) They just brought you back. (25:52) They did only occasionally there was like probably what we thought what old people maybe like twenty, twenty-five years old. When they caught them, they used to beat them up so bad. I remember we got … once they put us in a cellar in a farmhouse there were thirty-nine people in there and they put a hot kettle of oil in there. That was their thing. And they’d get fumes and they’d lock up the basement - we call it cellar basement is what you got here - then in the morning they let you out because once you get fresh air again, you almost fall over. Then the older people, they had look in the sun for us kids, we were supposed to look in the sun too but they didn’t beat us up, but they beat them. I’ve seen them when they beat people so bad. If you look in the sun and you close your eyes, you can’t close your eyes they were watching. That didn’t happen daily, that just happened at one experience I had. And a lot of times they intercepted us just before you get into town, they took you to the main building. They had a big cellar they’d lock us in sometimes for two, three days. You know, and then they’d come up once they figured we were in for long enough they’d let us out and we’d go out the front door and �back the back door because we knew where all the knapsacks were from when they took food away from other people and you’d steal it and run and run to church. There was the church across the street. You’d hide in there for a while and then when you’d think it was time … it was like a game. (28:12) Now, most of the time did you not get caught? (28:17) Most of the time, I didn’t get caught. (28:21) Now how long did you have to stay in that camp? (28:24) I was like, I was there from like March to the 22nd of December ’46. In the meantime, after about a year my mother escaped a hard labor camp and she came to our camp, but she was with me and she wasn’t with me. Somehow there was another camp within the camp where they had people who were able to work. I can see that out of her statement that, like I said, she worked in that camp, she had to go to work. (29:13) But would you ever get to see her or spend any time with her? (29:16) I’d see her like sometimes in the morning really quick and sometimes at night and then I don’t know where she went. (29:28) So, mostly you’re still living with your aunt at this point? (29:30) Yeah, I always lived with my aunt until my mother somehow there was maybe sixty to one hundred people, they had to pay to a guy to take you across the border. We went from, we escaped there and went to Hungary. And when we crossed the border there was a daily thing where they, the Partisans, opened up with the machine guns and would just shoot. There was �always a lot of dead people. We’d seen them, everyday they came with the wagons and you’d see the legs hanging. I used to live on the main street by the cemetery, close to the cemetery. (30:24) So, was your town close to the Hungarian border? (30:28) The camp was, yeah. Actually, what was our town was supposed to be the concentration camp. Originally, they brought people from other towns into our town. And then I don’t know who made the decision to put the concentration camp closer to the Hungarian border. That was our luck, because if they would’ve had it in our town and if we would’ve gotten the food that they had there, we all would have died. They had daily eighty, sixty people die from malnutrition. (31:15) So, your mother did she have to bribe, is she paying someone to smuggle? (31:21) She was paying, yeah. I don’t know where she got the money. They usually had jewelry, or whatever they had left. Whatever or however she got it, I don’t know. (31:34) Now, do you remember yourself getting out of the country? (31:39) Yeah. (31:39) What happened, what did you do it during the day or at night? (31:41) At night. Yeah, I know when we crossed the border. When they started shooting. We all got scared and I found my mother again and of course she would scream, and you’re scared. And then we went in Hungary, well we didn’t know where to go we just kept walking. And we found, they had isolated houses like between towns. Most of those were from farms. And there was light, and we went in there and through sheer luck there was a man that was actually from our town. He was the help. There was a cow and a calf. And he got us organized to go live with some �Hungarian people for a week or so, my mother helped out because the farmer’s wife was sick. And we got a little money and then eventually we started heading towards Germany. So, we hopped a train, got to the train. We had a little money and you run out you had to get off and kept walking, so you walked on to the next station. You basically walked close to the railroad tracks because you knew that they went north. (33:27) Now did you, Hungary at that point doesn’t have a border with Germany. Did you go into Austria? (33:33) Hungary had a border. Hungary had a border with Yugoslavia. Hungary had a border with Austria. Yeah, we walked basically all of Hungary. I mean, we hopped trains, we walked. Matter of fact when we crossed the border from Austria there was somehow, we got together with another group and we were almost on the border and the Hungarian police started shooting. No … I think it was the Hungarians, they started shouting for us to stop. They thought we were Russian soldiers. Hungary was occupied by the Russians too and the Russian soldiers used to go try to find women. I just know this from my mother, I couldn’t say that. And the Hungarians thought that we were Russian. So, when they started shooting, they had to take us back, so they took us back into town and they fed us really good and they treated us, the port police. And at four o’clock in the morning they ordered us to get ready and took us to the Austrian border. And so, it was the same thing. We walked basically through Austria, hopped trains, and you know you get kicked off and we ended up in Vienna. And there was like a little camp where people that was sort of like organized for people that were fleeing through. They’d get like a day or two break. And we were there and from there we went to go North, we went to Linz, that’s in Austria also and we were there like two weeks I think, and my mother got, that’s when my mother got interviewed. She gave like a statement of what happened to her. �(36:06) Ok, and so the document that you showed me before the interview, that was her testimony? [a translated version of this document is attached to this file] (36:10) Yes, that’s her testimony of what happened to her. (36:14) Was she applying for refugee status? (36:17) No. (36:18) That was just for being allowed into Germany? (36:21) We crossed a border every time, except when we got to see in Austria like when we got out of Vienna, that was a Russian zone. So, we walked in the Russian zone. In order to go in like Linz is a city in Austria that’s across the Danube, that was the American zone. My mother had a picture, like a group picture, and the Russians gave us a passport to get across, but the Americans didn’t want us so we … there was always like a group, like 10 – 20 people when I’m talking because that’s how we, nobody went individual. So, when we got across the, we walked across the Danube on the bridge. When we got there, on the American side, but they didn’t want to let us through. And there was a trick as a kid you had to cry and so they felt sorry for us, so they let my mother and myself go through, but the next group they didn’t let go through. They had to go back, so the Russians took them actually. Then people were two weeks earlier in Germany than we were. (37:52) We went to Linz, like I said, we stayed there a couple weeks. Then we went to Passau, that’s a city in Germany. I had an uncle that lived close to that area, we had a destination where we’d go. So, when we crossed the border from Austria into Germany, we laid there all night in the woods until it got daylight and then we’d cross the border. And when we went, it was a rainy day when we went. And the first guy we’d seen with a bicycle had a tarp over his head was a border police. We asked him for directions to the railroad station. When he found out �where we came from, he tried to put us back. There was, I cried again and he let us go and we found the railroad station and when we walked up the steps, my mother – there were people already from our hometown – she just happened to run into a person, she said “Your mother and father are in the main waiting room.” My grandmother and my father were going to go to the Red Cross in Passau to look for us. Nobody know from nobody where anybody is. That’s how I met my father after two, after he was about two years. My grandmother she fled, she retreated with the German army. We had no idea where she was and she, they all went to my uncle. And so then my brother when he got released from the army that’s how we found each other. (40:01) Now, but your sister was still off? (40:07) We had no idea where my sister was. We didn’t find that out until 1948. They were finally able to write, but we had no idea when she comes. Then at the end of 1949, I think, Russia agreed to let most of them go, but there was a lot of them that perished. (40:35) Now once you and your mother have made it to Passau and you now have met back with your father and your grandmother, what does your family do at that point? (40:45) Well, there is nothing… we had … well my father was just released from a Russian prison. He was a Russian prisoner. He was released and he stayed with my grandmother. And when we came, we had to look for someplace to live. So, the German government made everybody give up a room. So, we lived by a farmer. He gave us our bedroom, living room, and dining room. There was only one room, that’s how we slept was kitchen, bedroom, bathroom, I mean, whatever. (41:37) And did you work on the farm? Or did your father work there? �(41:41) No. My father couldn’t work no more after the war. There was actually no work and we stayed there, we got there in ’47 and we stayed there until ’49. And then there were so many people from different countries, from Czechoslovakia, from Poland. (42:11) Right, because a lot of ethnic Germans were kicked out of those countries. (42:14) So, there were so many down that were in Bulgaria and they gave us an option if we would move to the western part of Germany, they gave us a house, for nothing basically. But my sister brought, my sister met her husband in Russia. He came, so she brought her boyfriend along, but of course they got married, but they decided we’d take that offer. So, we went to the western part of Germany. And there was no work either, there was a poor country and a poorer area than we what we left. So, we were there for two years and then we left. (43:07) And what area was that? Or what town? (43:09) In the Eifel, by Bitburg. I don’t know if you’ve heard of it. Bitburg was in the news. And I know my brother he worked on that airport, the big building, a big airport. The U.S. did that. And so, we lived there and then there was, uh, my brother ended up in Augsburg, in between Munich and Augsburg. There was a, what they did, the German government, gave people like us the option to build houses for 1% interest with a 99-year mortgage. And that’s how my mother, my parents, my grandparents, of course my grandparents went with us too, to Bitburg, and everybody put their money together and they ended up building a house by Augsburg. My brother did that with his wife and his in-laws. Then we went from Bitburg to Augsburg. (44:32) Now, during this time when you’re in these different places in Germany did you go back to school? (44:39) I was done in school when I left Passau. �(44:43) Ok, so you went to school in Passau? (44:46) Yeah, and then … well I got out of school in ’48 and all I had to do was go to grade school, I mean it’s like a grade school. I had to go with the farmers. Then there was also in Passau the American army created a center for kids who couldn’t find apprenticeship, because to find apprenticeship you had to have connections. They created a center for kids that volunteered to come there if your education was as far as middle grade, so I was there they paid us the fee for the railroad. They gave us the free card. That was a good experience actually. (45:43) Alright, and did you get to know any of the Americans there? (45:48) No, it was just created by the American Army. It was like a free thing, that was the first time I’d seen a baseball bat and a glove. We didn’t know what to do with it, they tried to teach us but none of us had any interest. We played soccer. (46:10) And when you were in Bitburg did you work at all? (46:13) No. I did actually I worked for a farmer for nothing, just for the food. And he was in the woods at times and he used to track deers and wild boars. That’s the reason I worked for him, because he took me along. So, we used to track wild boars and deers. For the one week the American army would come and the next week the French and Austrians would come and they gave us like eight bucks a day. There was lots, a lot of money for me … yeah and that’s all. Then when I came back from Bitburg to Augsburg, we had each house had to put 1200 hours’ worth of labor into the … you had to either work in the house or in the hut. I was the guy who got appointed to that, because my brother was still in Bitburg and I came with my mother and stayed with my brother. So, I did the work for basically us and my brother got credit for like I used to �lay floors, wooden floors. I used to lay wooden floors, paint, stain, whatever there was. Like I said, you got credit. So, many hours you got actually compensated. (48:08) So, at this point are you kind of supporting your family? (48:12) Pardon me? (48:13) Are you supporting your family at this point? (48:16) Not … well my, in a way I did without realizing it. I had nothing better, I had no … and then like three months later I got an apprenticeship. Of course I was looking, we always were looking for, to find something. So, I had finally gotten an apprenticeship and then I worked. (48:40) And what kind of work? (48:43) I was like uh, in the steel trade. You know, it’s like tool die. I would work anything, over there you did anything and what we did, well you start at seven and you work ‘til five and then the workers go home and you have to clean the machines and sweep the floor. So, I used to leave the house at like six and come home six, seven at night every day with the bicycle. I was riding like every day like fifteen kilometers you go with the bicycle and there was not a ten-speed bike, it was just a regular bike. (49:33) Now as time is passing, could you begin to see the German economy doing better? Were there more jobs, or was it still pretty bad? (49:43) Actually, when I was there it was ok, but it wasn’t too good. And I … like I said I started an apprenticeship late. I started three years later than the average guy through moving and stuff. So, I really had no money. I was like eighteen, nineteen. I got like a dollar and a half each week �the first year and two dollars the second and three dollars the third. A week. And that’s it, but that was common. (50:26) Now, did the government provide any support for your family? (50:31) Yes, my father couldn’t work. He got just like, he got like 120 marks a month. Which was, well not enough to live but something. You had to … everybody, nobody got more, they all got the same. (50:53) Um, but did you complete the apprenticeship and get a job? (50:57) I did my apprenticeship and then I went to work for a company that did like caterpillars. They built buildings, they built bridges. It was all in the steel work, but when I graduated you couldn’t work as a journeyman until you had your journeymen’s card. You had to go through a test. I graduated in July and then the next test was not until October. And the place I worked, my hourly wage would up a mark and eight pennies. So, I started at a shop in this steel firm there for two mark and fifty cents, I started as a welder. So, I worked as a welder until I got my journeymen’s card and then I was a welder, mechanic, whatever. (52:04) Ok, now how is it then that you wound up coming to the United States? (53:08) Well that was a funny thing. I went, I had a cousin that was the Uncle we met in Passau, they moved to the US and my cousin was in the American, he came back as a GI, as a soldier and he came to visit us, came to visit his grandma. So, he said when I get done with my apprenticeship to come to US and well that didn’t appeal to me really. But I went to Munich to some party and I came home and I had a bit too much to drink and so the next day my mother got me out of bed and “I want to stay in bed.” She said. I went drinking and she came with a broom stick and got me out. So, instead of going to work, I drove, I hopped a train to go back to Munich �and I had to kill the day so I decided, I found the American Consulate so I went there and filled out some paper. And I wrote my cousin a letter that day if he would sponsor me, not with the intentions of coming and five months later, well a few months later they start doing background checks on me and people would ask me what happened. I said, “I don’t know.” And then I found out what that was and that started the yeah, I’m going to America. Well, when the time came I really didn’t want to go because I had friends there and we had a good time, but since I had a big mouth I had to. So, I came back, I mean I did go to America. (54:27) So, what year did you get to America? (54:30) In ’56. I couldn’t speak one work of English. And I started working for General Motors as a tool and die maker and I just never liked it. I couldn’t speak the language, so I decided to quit and my supervisor says “No, you don’t quit, you take a leave of absence.” Which I didn’t want to do but I finally agreed. So, after eight months I went back home. Well, then times were better in Germany, but I ran out of money, so I came back. Then, I got married and a year later, I told my wife if you marry me we’re going to move back to Germany so we went back to Germany in ’61 and things were not the same. Germany’s economy was in a boom, the people all had cars now, they all had televisions, nobody socialized no more. So, the whole system changed. In the beginning when nobody had a television, we all met in a beer garden. They had a place where you played cards and we always had a good time and that was all gone. (56:09) Now, was your wife American or German? (56:12) American, but she was of German descent. Her parents were German. (56:18) So, would you talk to each other in German most of the time? �(56:21) That we did when my oldest daughter, she was that time like a year and a half. So, my wife could speak that good, she spoke very good German. So, we spoke German, so the little one could speak German when we get there. So, when we came back from Germany a lot of the neighbor kids would laugh at that and she would come home and cry and the kids make fun of her. So, that’s when we decided to speak English. (56:57) Ok, and then did you wind up staying as a tool and die maker? (57:02) Yeah, I worked 36 years for General Motors. (57:07) Alright, well that makes for a really a very interesting story. Are there other things when you think about the time you were living in Europe, whether in Germany or before that, are there other things that stand out in your memory that you haven’t talked about yet? (57:23) Not really, I mean the hop from place to place was really not always exciting. (57:36) Alright, well you’ve had a lot of experiences that a lot of people would have never even thought would have happened. (57:42) Well, that’s a good thing. (57:44) Alright, well thank you very much for taking the time to share your story today. (57:48) Thank you. �Translation of affidavit given by Magdalena Lux when requesting permission to enter Germany with her son, Melchior Lux. Translated by Sarah Schneider Factual Report from Magdalena Lux Maiden name Haus, born on April 26th, 1907 in Backi Gracac, Mother of Melchior Lux, born September 8th, 1935 in Backi Gracac, Bresowatzer street 17, currently traveling through Linz. On the 21st of October in 1944 the first soldiers came to our town Backi Gracac. They did not bother us the first day. On the 26th of October in 1944 the Russians came to our town. I cannot say anything about them, because they only invaded our town and did not do anything to anyone. Afterwards the soldiers began to raid. At first, they took clothes, linen, jewelry, furniture, and gold. On November 1st, 1944 the Partisans announced that all locals who own radios, bicycles, and military items must be turned over to them. Those who did not comply were shot. After November 1st, 1944 those who were fit to work had to work every day in Odzaci at the city’s airfield in order to make it level. It was ploughed down during the evacuation of the Germans. On November 2nd, 1944 (All Souls’ Day) we did not go to work, instead we went to church. We were also not asked by the soldiers to go to work either. While we were in the church, the Russians came to the church to collect the workers who worked in Odzaci. The largest group of the workers were in the church, the Russians chose to surround the church and shoot. After that we left the church. On November 11th, 1944 Mrs. Eichinger, born Eichinger, born in 1905 was shot by the soldiers in front of the vicarage. It was announced before, that the previously mentioned person would be shot and that the citizens must attend the execution. According to the testimony of my relatives, who drove the woman who was shot to the cemetery, Mrs. Eichinger had survived. When they told this to the soldiers, he was slapped, beaten with the butt of the weapon and commanded to bury her. Before he laid her in the grave, he wanted to wrap her in a cloth, which the soldiers prevented him from doing. On November 25th it was announced, that all the men between sixteen and 60 years old needed to report to the municipal office. From these men 85 were locked in the church and 240 drove to Odzaci, from where we learned nothing more. The previous year in the fall, an airport in Odzaci began running, at which one found many human corpses. We assumed that these were the corpses from Backi Gracac. �After November 25th, 1944 we had to go to Sombor to the airport for work. We did not receive food or compensation for the work. On the 27th and 28th of December in 1944 two carriages left our town for Russia. From our town 320 girls and women and 80 men were sent to Russia through these carriages. So, women were sent to Russia and would be forcibly separated from their infants and the children had to leave home without regard of who would take them. In January 1945 every day we had to go to the field through the cold and snow in order to break corn, corn leaves to cut, and so on. A group of us had to go to the hemp factory for work. Here, children as young as seven and men as old as seventy would work. In the factory we would receive taskwork. One person had to produce one cubic meter of Hemp. We were always told that those who could not complete his work were sent to Siberia. In February 1945 all children between the ages of 13 and 17 and their mothers had to go to Sombor with brooms in order to sweep the streets. None of them returned. On March 11th, 1945 the soldiers announced that all that are fit for work had to report. When we, around 500 people, reported we traveled to Sombor. From this, I was assigned to Uprova centralnog logora with 16 women from Backi Gracac. There we had to organize the Russian and partisan soldiers’ bathrooms, rooms, and beds. We stayed here for three weeks. Our bedding here was a small space where we had to sleep on the floor, other than that we were allowed scattered straw. For food they gave us water soup in the morning. In the middle of the day and the evening we were given soup with 20 dkg of corn bread. On April 8th, 1945 we all had to line up. There was something around 1,000 people in the courtyard. There the soldiers shot around us and threatened us: those who did not hand over all of their money and jewelry would be shot. This lasted almost the entire day. Almost all of us were desperate from fear. The men, of whom they could find with no money, they beat so extensively, that skin from their head hung down. On April 10th, 1945 nearly 500 men had to go to Osijek in order to build the city railroad track. The men worked for 5 weeks. From the 500 men, only 150 men returned. Those who returned told how they had to endure inhumane treatment and were beaten so terribly and that’s how many of those who passed died. The rest of those who died were shot. Other statements from those who returned were also terrible. On May 5th, 1945 I arrived in Novi Sivac with 500 people. We had to walk the entire way, around 30 km. Once we arrived in Sivac, we had to travel again, around 20 km, to a federal estate. When we arrived, we would be given work and would work for 2 days in the fields. In the night we would sleep under the trees. There was no space available for us and the soldiers who accompanied us, we headed back to Sivac by foot. During these four days we did not receive anything to eat. �When we arrived in Sivac we were received by the camp commandor, a Jew, who went down every row and hit each person in the face with a riding whip. He then put us to work. In Sivac we had to clean and furnish houses for the Greeks. 5,000 Greeks were coming from Germany to Sivac. When the work was finished, we were to store the extra stock and the next day we would sell it to the farmers. We worked by the farmers on the fields. Everyday the camp commander would drive on the fields to see if we were actually working. He stayed wherever we worked and let us come to the car. We had to stand still in front of the car and he would hit us in the face with a riding whip. After he would say that was not all, because we Schwabiens did not deserve any better. Those who did not work diligently, would receive beatings and it was always like that for us. You all came to a camp where poisonous blows are. They must sting and bite you until you’re dead. And a group of you came to a camp where wild and hungry animals who tear and eat at you until you are all dead. For you, there is no mercy. At the end of May, the partisans forced captive Ustasas [collaborators] through the city. The captives must remain in front of the apartment of the camp commander. Then he came outside and shot three of the Ustasas dead, is what I saw with my eyes. After, the partisans forced the Ustasas towards Veprovac. Two Ustasas received the company of a Partisan. The colonists in Sivac, children and women chased the group, they beat them and threw stones at the Ustasas. In the camp in Sivac we were housed in a space with around 80 people. We had to sleep on the floor. We could not spread any straw and received no blankets. We had to share 3kg of beans or berries among 500 people daily and 1kg of flour for the preparation of the meal. We did not receive salt or fat. We did not receive any medical attention. We had to work on Sundays and holidays. We could not go to church because it was closed. The cemetery was destroyed. All crosses and monuments were knocked over and the wooden cross was burnt. In the camp we were full of vermin. We could not get water to wash and clean ourselves. On the 27th of July 1945 we arrived at a camp in Sentivan. There we had to go to the Hemp Factory to get work. By this work we were always forced and constantly beaten. I would once be beaten at work, only because I wanted to wipe my nose. Since I had diarrhea and was often on the side, I came away with only 7 sticks. From this I had two teeth knocked out and my nose was broken. My facial skin had burst. The meals were the same as they were in Sivac. There was also no medical treatment. The church was closed, the cemetery was destroyed like it was in Sivac. On October 12th, 1945 I arrived in camp Gakovo. In Gakovo we were housed in private housing. When we arrived, there were already camp inmates there. We would be housed in those spaces of the camp inmates who died. There were no more windows or doors. The rooms were full of vermin – what we were already used to from the other camps. In the morning there was ¼ l of water soup, at lunch tainted barely soup that one, despite their giant hunger, could not eat. Most of the camp inmates who ate the soup, died of the consequences. In the evening there was alternate pea – or bean soup. Often one found no beans or peas in the soup. The food would be prepared without salt or fat. The medical treatment was very poor. It was a camp inmate who �was appointed as the doctor, who was very comfortable and who was not even examined. In any case there were no drugs. We could not visit the church and the cemetery. Now and then on big holidays we tried stealthy ways to get into the church. The majority of the time we would be caught by Partisans, driven to the commander’s office and on the entire way beaten with the gunstock. At the commander’s office they beat us women with the bull’s pizzle on the naked bottom. After we would be locked in a basement for three days, where we received no food but only beatings. At Grakovo 100 parentless children came to the school Kanjiza and would be raised in communism. One day 80 young boys without parents came from away from here. Where they came from, we never learned. Three women from Filipovo – Theresia Hönisch, born Harer, year 1912; Anna Pertschi, born Gilich, year 1907, country women; Anna Hog, born Flatt, 48 years old – who all had young children, which before the hunger wailed, that they must die, they had decided, to go begging. On the way they would be caught by the Partisans and were battered in such a way, that Hönisch’s spleen would break, and she would die as a result of this. Pertschi would lose her kidney and in a day she is also dead. Hog dies also due to the beatings in the prison. After Gakovo came also a large number of soldiers that were returning from Russian confinement to the camp. They were so beaten every day, that many of them died. Many of them had their eyes knocked out from the beatings. After the beatings they would be kept in the cellar. But before they came to the cellar, they must stand on the stairs where they got a blow or a bump with a riffle so that they would fall headfirst down the stairs. Due to this, the majority of them would break ribs, legs, arms, etc. When one of them did not fall down the stairs as the Partisans meant, they must again come to the stairs and begin again. While the unfortunate drop down the stairs the Partisans laugh and it makes them jolly. Us women in camp Gakovo must go out in the fields and cut brushwood as well as corn stalks and pull the corn stubs out of the ground. Afterwards must we go back to the town – and in fact 4 women – and fetch a wagon. That we load up with brushwood or corn stalks and the corn stubs and then pull the full wagon home. By this opportunity made it the Partisans great joy to hit and abuse us. We had to pull the wagon there and back about 15 km. In Gakovo in January and February 1948 died 60 to 80 people, once even 120, daily. The people died due to scurvy, dysentery and Typhus, frostbite and mistreatment. The number of camp inmates in Gakovo is unknown to me. The dead were carried out of the houses onto the street. Every afternoon a manure wagon or wheelbarrow would drove there and collected the bodies. These were thrown like a piece of wood onto the wagon and were brought to a mass grave. In a mass grave there were 400 to 600 people. �While I was in Gakovo, 6 women jumped from torment and hunger into a fire and one hanged herself. The cellar was the housing that I was in, would often be used as a prison if the cellar of the Partisan housing was over filled. Next to the cellar was a boiler house. Once, the Partisans poured from a kettle boiling hot water on 37 caged men, women, and children in the cellar. From this scalded 5 women and 7 children so badly, that they died from this mistreatment. On December 20th, 1946 I had decided to go through with my child, what I indeed also succeeded. I went with only 100 people over the border of Hungary from where I came to Linz. I testify, that the above statement fully in accordance with the truth and I am always ready to repeat my statements. I testify the accuracy through my subsequent signature. Linz, February 25th, 1947. Magdalena Lux. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_LuxM2285V Title A name given to the resource Lux, Melchior (Interview transcript and video), 2016 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-05-28 Description An account of the resource Melchior Lux was born in 1935 in Filipowa, an ethnic German community in Yugoslavia, in 1935. When the German military invaded in 1941, Lux and the Germanic townspeople welcomed the incoming soldiers. His brother joined the German Army and, later, his father was forced into the service in early 1944. When the Germans evacuated in October of 1944, along with his brother and father, Serbian partisans took over, instating rations on supplies, but not food. Lux's mother was forced to undergo manual labor for the partisans and his sister was sent to Russia as a forced laborer. The partisans frequently tortured, beat, and abused their German prisoners and local townspeople. Lux remained imprisoned in the town until December of 1946 when his mother paid a guide to help them escape and flee to Hungary. In the Soviet Zone of Occupation, he acquired a passport and was eventually permitted into the American Zone, settling into Passau where his uncle lived. He worked as a welder until he earned his Journeyman's Card and filed paperwork for emigration to the United States, leaving Germany in 1956. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lux, Melchior Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, Yugoslavian Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, RHC-27 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6abc21f0646e0fef5a8994bd2b4dbd18.mp4 5ca809f491c476b57fd3bfa77833a6c4 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8a90d4896d6972f4c6aefb95e44edf8d.pdf 6164bdc45b8894c47f7676a353fb53c7 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Vietnam Wayne Luznicky Total Time – (01:17:00) Background     He was born in Chicago, Illinois in 1947 (00:15) His father was a machinist and his mother was a clerk in a local food store He has an older and younger sister (00:29) He attended Mark Twain Elementary School and Kelly High School (00:45) o He left high school in 1964 and joined the Marines  He wanted to join the Marines because they were the best (01:11)  Joining the Marines was a way for him to escape issues in his neighborhood and at home (01:17) Enlistment/ Basic Training – (01:22)    He joined the Marines in October of 1964 Basic Training was in San Diego, California o He went to the recruiting station in Chicago on the day he was supposed to report and spent the whole day sitting around (01:46) o He was put on a bus and taken to O’Hare International Airport and took his first airplane ride of his life (02:08) o When he exited in San Diego there was a Drill Sergeant in the terminal, waiting for all of the recruits o The recruits were told to “shut up, spit out the gum, put out the cigarettes, and get in that vehicle over there” (02:32) o They took a small truck to the base  There were 10 men in his group When they arrived, the recruits were told to quickly move and get to a certain location (03:26) o They stood at attention for roughly one hour before they were allowed to go inside (03:50) o Once they went inside there was a lot of screaming and yelling by other Marines o They had to take all of their civilian attire and “contraband” and send it home (04:09) �             o They had two minutes to shower and shave (04:15)  They received their “bucket issue”  The bucket was used throughout all of training (04:45) The soldiers then received their first pair of trousers, socks, belt, covers, and a yellow sweatshirt o The yellow let everyone know that you were new (05:17) The soldiers were assigned to many busy tasks – cleaning floors, swabbing them, running a floor buffer, etc. They continued Police Call work (06:31) He was then assigned to his platoon – he was assigned to Platoon 3001 Kilo Company, 3rd Battalion, 2nd Recruiting Regiment (06:47) o They were taught how to make their racks, square away their foot lockers, and were able to shower When soldiers first started marching, they had to link arms with the Private on both sides (07:41) o There was tape on the pavement that was set up at a thirty inch pace (08:06) They learned Marine Corps. history o They spent roughly 1/3 of their time on Marine Corps. history (08:44)  They learned the nomenclature and operation of the M14, first aid, hygiene, different aspects of living in the field, and some other things The physical training included pushups, sit-ups, and squat thrusts every morning (09:58) o They would have to run, there was an obstacle course, confidence course, bayonet training, and hand-to-hand combat training o He was average when it came to the physical aspects of training (10:33)  It was not difficult – the biggest problem he had was the rope climb  The Drill Instructor gave him some personal help (10:57) There were some Marines that were overwhelmed by the training (11:16) o They were put into a special squad – they remained with the platoon but were put into a squad that had more time spent on physical conditioning Every Marine graduated that he was there with (11:58) Around the third week of Basic Training, he took his aptitude test (12:26) The rifle range was three weeks long (12:46) o The first week was familiarizing oneself with firing the rifle o The second week was learning the different positions one could fire from o The third week was snapping in (13:10)  Snapping in is squeezing the trigger but not firing real ammo He had been in training for three weeks before the rifle training The last week of rifle training was qualification (14:11) o They were supposed to qualify in the morning but there was a heavy fog – they had a stand down and had to go through the qualification process later in the day o It was Christmas Eve of 1964 �         o They were allowed to have packages sent to them (14:49) Because they did well in their qualification, the Drill Instructors allowed the packages to be opened and everyone could partake in the goodies (15:25) o Some held back from eating the goodies – there was always payback o One Private received a box of cigars (15:56)  The Drill Instructors made the non-smokers smoke the cigars The soldiers had a nice cooked meal on Christmas (17:09) o He did not want to partake again because he knew there would be payback once again o The following day, the Marines had to go four miles down the beach doing Double Time (17:50)  They had to go from Camp Pendleton to Camp Del Mar There were seventy men in his training platoon (18:17) When they returned to San Diego, California from rifle training, the Marines had four more weeks of Basic Training (18:27) o Basic Training totaled fourteen weeks The first week back in San Diego was spent on Mess Duty After that, there was more classroom work (18:54) They were fitted for their uniforms as well At this point, the Drill Instructors were not as harsh as they had previously been There were two different physicals that they had to go through (19:36) o The first was the standard pushups and other activities (19:41) o The other was physical readiness testing  He had to wear full field gear and do certain drills  All of the events were timed and had to be done properly (20:40)  His platoon did extremely well ITR Training – (21:20)       After Basic Training, he had ITR (Infantry Training Regiment) (21:27) ITR was at Camp Pendleton in San Onofre, California (21:32) ITR training consisted of learning how to fire automatic weapons, having demonstrations of the rocket launchers, the 60mm mortar, the M79 grenade launcher, they threw hand grenades, learned about white phosphorous, smoke grenades, they learned infantry tactics, etc. o The M1 was used in the ITR (23:00) o They all fired the BAR and the 50 Caliber They learned how to ride in helicopters and deploy once they hit the ground (23:28) They participated in a war game (23:40) o Operation Silver Lance  He was a part of the aggressor force The ITR was a six week program (24:00) �            He, along with some other men, were told that they were going to report to Naval Air Station in Memphis, Tennessee for Aviation Training He was able to go home for a 20 day leave before reporting to Memphis (24:45) At this point he was very aware of what was going on in Vietnam o He was aware of Vietnam before he enlisted (25:20) The first Marines landed in Da Nang, Vietnam when he was wrapping up his ITR When he arrived in Memphis, he went to the receiving barracks (26:31) o He spent a week there until he was put through a series of tests where he was asked different questions o They were able to express any preference for a job (26:58)  Some of the jobs were aircraft mechanics, hydraulic mechanics, sheet metal men, etc. o He qualified for anything he wanted (27:49)  He ended up choosing to be a mechanic (27:58)  He wanted the chance to work with helicopters The training to be a mechanic was roughly three months long He was trained how to use a file, a drill, what the different manuals were, how to be an aircrewman, and went through simulated jumps o They were taught the different principles that aircraft operate on (26:33) After the training he was certified as a general mechanic He never trained on a specific type of aircraft (27:59) He graduated in early August of 1965 He was assigned to the Marine Corps Air Station at Cherry Point, North Carolina (30:25) o He was assigned to the VMFA (Marine Fighter Attack Squadron) 323  They were shipping out but it was decided that he would stay behind (30:48) o He then worked with the VMFA 513 (30:58) He did regular maintenance and mechanic work at Cherry Point on the Phantom F4B (31:30) Specialized Vietnam Training – (31:40)    In January of 1966, word came that the military was looking for volunteers to go to Vietnam (31:53) o He jumped on it and volunteered  It was where the action was and he wanted to see how he would react to a combat zone (32:10) He heard talk of Da Nang Air Base and the night that it was hit o The weapons were locked up in the armory when they were hit (33:07) He then went home on a short leave before reporting back at Camp Pendleton (34:11) �    o He went through another month of infantry training that was tailored for Vietnam o They watched movies of the atrocities that the Viet Cong committed (34:44) o They went through field problems  One field problem was “Nightmare Alley” and it had all of the booby traps that one could encounter in Vietnam  There was a simulated POW (Prisoner Of War) (35:25)  It was a SERE course (Survival, Escape, Resistance and Evasion) (35:37)  The simulated POW camp lasted three days (36:20) When they were in the POW training camp, they had to find a way to get out o The “enemy” had taken most of his equipment except for his can opener and PFC Chevron (38:09) o He and another Marine started scraping at a piece of wood that became weak enough that they could set it on fire o They were eventually cut loose (39:03) While he was training for Vietnam, he never had any second thoughts about what he was doing The worst part was simulating an abandoned ship – they had to swim the length of a swimming pool (39:32) o By the time they were given there equipment, it was all waterlogged from previous training They then boarded an aircraft that stopped in Hawaii to refuel and eventually landed in Okinawa (40:10) Active Duty – First Tour – (40:37)       The Marines were processed in Okinawa o They spent three days there drinking beer and waiting to be shipped out o At this point they did not know where they were going to be shipped out to (41:07)  He just knew he was going as a replacement When they left Okinawa, he looked out of his porthole and the engine was on fire (41:51) They switched aircrafts and then flew to Da Nang, Vietnam (42:01) o They landed around noon His first impression of Vietnam was that it was hot (42:20) o He also noticed that Da Nang Air Base was very busy They had noon chow before he processed and on his way to Chu Lai, Vietnam (42:44) o Chu Lai was thirty miles south of Da Nang He had heard that Chu Lai was contested and not a secure area (43:08) o The “bad guys” were taking pot shots and occasionally attacking the airfield �                 o When he got off the plane in Chu Lai he saw smoke rising everywhere – it turned out that they were burning their sewage (43:35) He was then assigned to VMA (Marine Attack Squadron) 214 (43:54) o He was a mechanic on the E4 Skyhawk Every day he would report and would work standard maintenance jobs (44:47) The mechanics would also have to man the perimeter at some points as well (45:11) o It was typically every fourth night o He was using an M14 and sometimes the M60 (45:25) There were a couple of nights where they took fire on watch (46:36) o They were mortared a couple of times o The attacks were more harassment than anything else (47:02) There were four Fixed Wing Squadrons and some helicopter units in Chu Lai He remained in Chu Lai for his entire first tour (48:36) He would sometimes have to fix battle damage done on aircraft The morale of the unit when he was there was very high His unit had Caucasian, black, Chicano, and oriental individuals (49:43) There was a small PX, a club where soldiers could get beer, and a show where movies were played o The only time he went was when the TV show “Combat” was playing (50:22)  They were mortared in Chu Lai as the TV show played Germans sending mortars against the Americans He worked seven days a week (51:18) He received his first R&R at Christmas of 1966 and he spent it in Singapore (52:07) o Singapore was fantastic for him o It was one of the cleanest cities in the East (52:13) o He did not have a choice of anywhere else to go o His R&R was five days long o It was not difficult for him to return to Vietnam (52:36) He was in Vietnam for nine months before he received his first R&R When he returned to Vietnam there was no change in his attitude (53:22) o There was high morale and they were proud of what they were doing (53:30) He finished out his tour in Chu Lai – he had enlisted into the Marines for four years In the process of returning home he processed out of Da Nang and the following morning he flew to Okinawa o He spent five days in Okinawa (54:09) o He had to get his uniform ready to wear home o He had lost a few pounds while in Vietnam (54:30) He then flew from Okinawa on a civilian flight that went directly to Treasure Island near San Francisco, California (55:12) �    o After he processed through there he got on a plane to go home for thirty days (55:29) o He went home in May of 1967 When he was returning home the soldiers were told of anti-war protestors (55:46) o They were told not to confront them o They were told not to wear their uniform when they were home (55:57) He was then assigned to back to Cherry Point, North Carolina o He was assigned to the MAG 24, VMFA 531 – they flew the Phantoms At Cherry Point, there were some other Vietnam veterans there (56:33) o When he joined the Marines, there was still a high morale o There were some that asked him of his opinions on the war (56:58) o Some were nervous to go and others were eager to go (57:11) He was at Cherry Point from late June of 1967 – late January of 1968 (57:32) Active Duty – Second Tour – (57:37)           He then volunteered to go on a second tour of Vietnam o Stateside duty was a pain to him (57:44)  The inspections bothered him  He was used to just doing his job It was not difficult for him to get reassigned (58:32) o One NCO told him that he could go to Vietnam if he signed the waivers (58:45) o At this point he was a Sergeant – E5 ranking After he signed the waiver he went home for a few days before reporting to Camp Pendleton (59:14) His mother had anxieties about him going back His friends at the time did not understand what he was doing When he was back at Fort Pendleton, he had to repeat some of the training that he had already done (59:57) o Some of the training had changed o There were a lot of night field problems (01:00:08) o He fired the M16 for the first time o The training curriculum was improved and had changed based on experiences (01:02:13) His first training was better than his second training (01:02:45) The morale of the guys going through in his second training was normal but not as high as the first time he went Some of the soldiers were draftees (01:03:14) o The draftees did not want to go He then flew in a civilian aircraft to Okinawa – they stopped in Alaska to refuel before going to Okinawa (01:03:58) o He spent a couple of days in Okinawa before traveling to Da Nang, Vietnam �         o He then went to Chu Lai, Vietnam where he was assigned to the VMFA 323 and worked on Phantoms (01:04:16) Chu Lai was much larger than the previous time he had been there o He got there in April of 1968 (01:04:46) As soon as they landed, blacks and whites were separated because they had learned that Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. had been assassinated (01:05:03) o He does not believe that the majority of the black Marines enjoyed getting the news as separate from the white soldiers o He did not recognize any segregation between the Marines The morale changed at that point (01:05:56) o On the second trip, many of the men just wanted to get their tour over – on the first trip, many felt as though they were cavaliers (01:05:54) In Chu Lai he volunteered to do a thirty day stand on perimeter duty o He was with the Army on the perimeter (01:07:13)  It was some distance from the Air Base o The Americal Division that he worked with were very professional (01:08:01)  He believes that 7th Marine Regiment did a better job than the Americal Division On his second tour the enemy’s ordinance changed – they were shooting rockets instead of the occasional mortar rounds (01:08:42) o There was some counter-fire that occurred (01:09:10  There was one night where they hit the enlisted men’s club  The soldiers were sitting in an open area drinking beer when they saw an aircraft coming in to bomb – they saw a secondary explosion and celebrated His second tour finished in late October of 1968 (01:11:14) He spent just over six months on his second tour The process of coming home from his second tour was the same as the first time o The one difference was, when returning from Okinawa, he flew to Marine Corps Air Station El Toro near Irvine, California (01:11:48)  There were quite a few of the soldiers that were getting off there There was an attempt to get the men to reenlist (01:12:12) After the Service – (01:12:18)       The LAPD and Los Angeles Sheriffs Department were at El Toro, trying to recruit the soldiers (01:12:19) He spent a week in El Toro getting civilized (01:12:36) He then received his physical and processed out He received the same advice about anti-war protestors after his second tour (01:13:20) He had one encounter with war protestors in downtown Chicago, Illinois roughly one month after being home When he returned home, he spent two weeks relaxing (01:14:22) �      He then got a job with a finance company (01:14:34) He then decided to go and become a police officer and joined the Chicago Police Force o He worked there for five years (01:14:50) After he worked as a police offer, he worked at a factory as a supervisor (01:15:34) o He eventually began working as a machinist He went back to school and took some classes His family had vacationed in Hesperia, Michigan (01:16:21) o They had a small cottage there He was divorced and he met his wife in Hesperia – she was living in Grand Rapids, Michigan � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context LuznickyW1462V Title A name given to the resource Luznicky, Wayne (Interview outline and video), 2012 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Luznicky, Wayne Description An account of the resource Wayne Luznicky was born in Chicago, Illinois in 1947. He joined the Marines in October of 1964 and took his Basic Training in San Diego and infantry training Camp Pendleton, California. He then went to Memphis, Tennessee, for aviation mechanic training, and was assigned to Cherry Point, North Carolina where he worked on Phantom F4B. In January of 1966, Wayne volunteered to go to Vietnam. He was stationed at the Air Base at Chu Lai. After his first tour of Vietnam, and spending some time at Cherry Point, North Carolina, he volunteered for a second tour, and was again at Chu Lai from April to October of 1968. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource McGregor, Michael (Interviewer) Kentwood Historic Preservation Commission (Kentwood, Mich.) WKTV Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings United States. Marine Corps Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-11-01 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/92656361f566232699ffe17f1a8df2f9.pdf e65ad8769c32e0e6b7bbe46e37a4eecb PDF Text Text ··.: ,-·. -·-·.;- . ~ :=~ti_.~_.,__x.;:?_i:=_._, r -- ~ _.,_ -- ·-:.:.:..___ _ : ~..::./;.~~~~~-~- _ ~-:· . . - ;~4.~i.~!~{~.. .. ~"'!.:.f~::-:-:---- ~..- �EDITOR: E. V• Gillis COUNCIL DRUM NEl'fS 2512 Union Ave.N.E. Grand Rapids,Mio,49505 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Native American Publication Collection Subject The topic of the resource Native Americans Indians of North America Anthropology Indians of North America -- Michigan -- Periodicals Michigan Description An account of the resource Selected digital surrogates of published and unpublished materials from the Edward V. Gillis Native American publication collection dealing with different aspects of human culture and anthropology, with an emphasis on Native American people, events, organizations, and activities in Michigan. Includes newsletters, event programs, flyers, posters and other printed materials. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Gillis, Edward V. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/446">Edward V. Gillis Native American Publication Collection (RHC-14)</a> Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-02-21 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Relation A related resource Gi-gikinomaage-min Project (Kutsche Office of Local History) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-14 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1958-2000 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/446">Edward V. Gillis Native American publication collection, RHC-14</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-14_council-drum_ILL Title A name given to the resource Lyle James Illustration Description An account of the resource Lyle James Illustration from an unknown issue of Council Drum News by the Grand Valley American Indian Lodge collected by Edward Gillis included as part of his Native American publication collection. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley American Indian Lodge Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1984 Subject The topic of the resource Indians of North America -- Michigan -- Periodicals Indians of North America Michigan Michigan -- Grand Rapids Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8fa4452548bbcc332216ea398af2a34b.mp4 df5a0c88582e08cae64e8b371412a5ea https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e27b95708164ee664ede2ff6d9ac5a31.pdf c67e8c8e99c00f937819dc8ad82c222e PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Elbert Lyles (36:30) Back ground information (00:09)             Born May 10th, 1920 in Mississippi. He grew up in the area. (00:10) His mother worked as a maid and housekeeper. (00:30) He was an only child. (00:53) He completed school through the 10th grade.(approx 1936) (1:03) He went to segregated schools. (1:15) In 1936 he got a job working on an ice truck delivering blocks of ice. The blocks of ice weighted about 300 pounds but they were cut into 60 5-pound blocks. (2:30) He did this work until he began working in a cotton seed plant. (3:15) In the late 30s before Pearl Harbor he had no idea of what was going on in Europe. (4:05) He recalls hearing about Pearl Harbor on the radio in 1941. (4:27) He didn’t have a drive to join the military after Pearl Harbor, however, his friends did. Soon after they left, Elbert decided that he might as well join too in 1942. (4:55) After enlisting he was sent to Fort Knox, Kentucky in 1942. (5:55) Basic training (6:00)               He arrived at Fort Knox via bus. (6:08) When arriving, he was assigned clothes as well as a barracks. (approx. 30 per barracks.) (6:33) He was trained separately from the white soldiers. (7:09) There were several black officers training him including a black Lieutenant. (7:17) The training consisted of exercise, weapons training, and military discipline. (7:46) He thought it was easy to adjust to military discipline. (8:30) He believed that he was treated fairly and that the white officers treated him fairly as well. (9:11) He received no special training after completing basic. (9:40) He was sent to the port he would ship out of from via train. (10:07) He sailed to Africa in a large navy ship. He recalls that the boat trip made the men sick. (10:50) They were approx. 200-300 men on the ship and they were free to move around. (11:17) He sailed in a convoy that traveled in a zigzag pattern. (11:40) There was a U-boat sighted when traveling to Europe but it was eventually chassed off. (12:10) He arrived in Oran, Algeria. (12:52) Service in Africa (12:55)(1942-1943) �          The men were loaded up on truck after arriving and driven to camps. (13:04) Here he served as a cook for an engineer battalion. (13:10) He was given a little bit of training for being a cook after he was assigned this title. (13:34) He cooked for the entire unit. (14:07) The cooks slept with the other men. (14:29) For sleep the men mostly slept in houses aside from tents (14:42) The soldiers he was with were constructing facilities and roads to set up a camp. (15:05) He saw a lot of native Arabs. It was very easy for him and other men to associate with them and trade. (15:45) The men were not allowed into town or villages unless given a pass. (16:50) He moved place to place within North Africa. He stayed in North Africa for a relatively short amount of time. Approx. 6 months. (17:06) Service in Italy (17:50)(1943-1944)                    After serving 6 months in North Africa he was sent to Sicily and Italy. (17:55) The men arrived in Italy from North Africa through Naples. (18:10) The battalion served delivering things to front as well as making repairs to roads and facilities. (18:38) While most men were about the same age as Elbert, there were a few that were 5-10 years older than him. These were mostly enlisted men. (19:02) The men cooked day on day off. If it was his day on he had to wake up earlier than the other soldiers. (19:20) At times the men had fresh food. However most of it was canned. (19:55) When he had a day on cooking, he was required to work essentially all day. (20:46) When given a day off, he spent his time around camp, using a pass to town, or sleeping. (21:07) When the men went to town they typically drank. He didn’t notice the Italians treating the Americans poorly. (21:19) Segregation was a new idea to the Italians. The White soldiers would tell the Italian civilians that the black soldiers were monkeys with long tails. (21:58) Some Italians could speak English. When they talked to soldiers they just wanted to know what was going on and why they were there. (22:37) While in Italy the men were sent up to the front briefly but then taken back to their position. (23:32) The Germans would occasionally bomb the places where he and his battalion were building. His Battalion did take casualties. (24:09) They were never close enough to come under fire by artillery. (25:25) While in Italy he was there for 3 years and 2 months. (26:16) He was given the chance to visit Rome. Here he was sent in a group by truck. (27:03) They stayed in Rome over night and they were given a place to stay. (27:59) 2 men in his battalion from Chicago got into a fight and one ended up killing the other. (29:37) He and his mother wrote to each other often. (30:09) �The German surrender. (30:57)     His camp was very excited about the surrender, hoping they would go home. (31:01) Because the weather on the way back was nicer, he did not get seasick. (31:45) He believes he arrived in Boston. (32:35) After arriving in the U.S. he was sent to a camp before he was discharged. (probably Fort Knox.)(32:50) Life after service (33:25)        After returning back he returned to the cotton seed plant where he worked before he enlisted because they had to guarantee him his job back when he returned. (33:30) He then received a job working in a hotel in Grand Rapids, Michigan. (33:48) This job was arranged by his uncle who already resided in Michigan. (34:01) After working at the hotel he began working at a furniture factory in Grand Rapids. (34:34) He got married after service and has 1 daughter. (35:00) He doesn’t believe he gained very much experience form his military service. He does not know if it was worth doing. (35:34) He disliked being away from his family and friends. (36:12) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context LylesE1184V Title A name given to the resource Lyles, Elbert (Interview outline and video), 2011 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lyles, Elbert Description An account of the resource Elbert Lyles was born in Mississippi in 1920. After leaving school in 1936, he worked as an iceman and in a cottonseed plant. He enlisted in the Army in 1942 and served in both North Africa and Italy in an all black engineer battalion. During his time in service, he served as a cook for his battalion who had the task of delivering supplies to the front and setting up more permanent camps. In this interview, Elbert gives an overview of what his cook duties entailed and how being an African American affected his military service. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-08-31 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/64f40f01331471a966d2da3dbcc4d9bd.jpg 42b79818d1bda97bad6051b3bf61f8e0 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Douglas R. Gilbert Photographs Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Gilbert, Douglas R., 1942-2023 Description An account of the resource Photographs scanned from negatives and transparencies from the Douglas R. Gilbert papers (RHC-183). Douglas R. Gilbert (b. 1942) is an American photographer from Michigan. He was born in Holland, Michigan and is the son of Russell W. and Carmen (Andree) Gilbert. Gilbert earned a B.A. in social sciences and art at Michigan State University in 1964, an M.S. in photography from the Institute of Design at Illinois Institute of Technology in 1972, and a M.S.W. from Salem State College in 1993. He is married to Barbara (McDonald) Gilbert, and has three daughters, Robyn, Rachel, and Anne. Gilbert took a serious interest in photography at the age of fourteen. In 1963 he joined the staff of Look magazine in New York as the second youngest photojournalist in the magazine's history. As a Look photographer from 1964 to 1966, he photographed folk musician Bob Dylan, the Newport Folk Festival, Simon and Garfunkel, the New York City Financial District, the children and facilities at the Manhattan School for Seriously Disturbed Children. From 1967 to 1969, Gilbert did several shoots, including that of folk singer Janis Ian for Life magazine. After moving to Chicago, Illinois in 1969 to attend the Illinois Institute of Technology, Gilbert conducted notable photo shoots of business and political figure Lenore Romney, and pursued more personal and artistic photography, focusing on urban and rural landscapes in Illinois and Michigan. He then joined the faculty of Wheaton College, where he taught from 1972 to 1982. In 1993, Gilbert graduated from Salem State College, Massachusetts, with a Masters in Social Work, and later pursued a second career as a psychotherapist. Douglas Gilbert died in June 2023. Throughout his photography career, he pursued both freelance commercial work as well as artistic work. His art photography is characterized by its classic black-and-white format, and features people, places and objects shot great attention and sensitivity. Gilbert's works are held in the permanent collections of the Art Institute of Chicago, the High Museum of Art in Atlanta, The Norton Simon Museum in Pasadena, and the Grand Valley State University Art Galleries, as well as in numerous private and institutional collections. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1960-2011 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="%E2%80%9Dhttps%3A//gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/783%E2%80%9D">Douglas R. Gilbert Papers (RHC-183)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Subject The topic of the resource Photographs Photography -- United States Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections and University Archives. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-183 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Image Type The nature or genre of the resource image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-183_M221-0017 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Gilbert, Douglas R. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1972-06/1972-08 Title A name given to the resource Lynmouth, Devon, England Description An account of the resource Black and white photograph of the River Lyn flowing through the village of Lynmouth, located in Devon, England, on the northern coast of Exmoor National Park. Scanned from the negative. Subject The topic of the resource Rivers--England--Devon Lynmouth (England) Devon (England) Exmoor National Park (England) Black-and-white photography Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/783">Douglas R. Gilbert papers (RHC-183)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1970s Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d66a3305b14efacded215f446ae53111.jpg f154273bdfe7a4c70da95d316e34af8e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Douglas R. Gilbert Photographs Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Gilbert, Douglas R., 1942-2023 Description An account of the resource Photographs scanned from negatives and transparencies from the Douglas R. Gilbert papers (RHC-183). Douglas R. Gilbert (b. 1942) is an American photographer from Michigan. He was born in Holland, Michigan and is the son of Russell W. and Carmen (Andree) Gilbert. Gilbert earned a B.A. in social sciences and art at Michigan State University in 1964, an M.S. in photography from the Institute of Design at Illinois Institute of Technology in 1972, and a M.S.W. from Salem State College in 1993. He is married to Barbara (McDonald) Gilbert, and has three daughters, Robyn, Rachel, and Anne. Gilbert took a serious interest in photography at the age of fourteen. In 1963 he joined the staff of Look magazine in New York as the second youngest photojournalist in the magazine's history. As a Look photographer from 1964 to 1966, he photographed folk musician Bob Dylan, the Newport Folk Festival, Simon and Garfunkel, the New York City Financial District, the children and facilities at the Manhattan School for Seriously Disturbed Children. From 1967 to 1969, Gilbert did several shoots, including that of folk singer Janis Ian for Life magazine. After moving to Chicago, Illinois in 1969 to attend the Illinois Institute of Technology, Gilbert conducted notable photo shoots of business and political figure Lenore Romney, and pursued more personal and artistic photography, focusing on urban and rural landscapes in Illinois and Michigan. He then joined the faculty of Wheaton College, where he taught from 1972 to 1982. In 1993, Gilbert graduated from Salem State College, Massachusetts, with a Masters in Social Work, and later pursued a second career as a psychotherapist. Douglas Gilbert died in June 2023. Throughout his photography career, he pursued both freelance commercial work as well as artistic work. His art photography is characterized by its classic black-and-white format, and features people, places and objects shot great attention and sensitivity. Gilbert's works are held in the permanent collections of the Art Institute of Chicago, the High Museum of Art in Atlanta, The Norton Simon Museum in Pasadena, and the Grand Valley State University Art Galleries, as well as in numerous private and institutional collections. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1960-2011 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="%E2%80%9Dhttps%3A//gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/783%E2%80%9D">Douglas R. Gilbert Papers (RHC-183)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Subject The topic of the resource Photographs Photography -- United States Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections and University Archives. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-183 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Image Type The nature or genre of the resource image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-183_M221-0022 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Gilbert, Douglas R. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1972-06/1972-08 Title A name given to the resource Lynmouth, Devon, England Description An account of the resource Black and white photograph of the River Lyn flowing through the village of Lynmouth, located in Devon, England, on the northern coast of Exmoor National Park. Scanned from the negative. Subject The topic of the resource Rivers--England--Devon Lynmouth (England) Devon (England) Exmoor National Park (England) Black-and-white photography Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/783">Douglas R. Gilbert papers (RHC-183)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1970s Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives