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                    <text>Living With PFAS
Interviewee: Linda Robles
Interviewer: Dani Davasto
Date: June 16, 2021
DD: I’m Dani DeVasto, and today, June 16, 2021, I have the pleasure of chatting with Linda
Robles. Hi Linda.
LR: Hi.
DD: Linda, can you tell me about where you’re from, and where you currently live?
LR: I am from Tucson, Arizona, and I live within the Davis-Monthan Air Force Base. Grew up
all my entire life in the central Tuscan southside area.
DD: How long have you lived within the base?
LR: I have lived here all my life. Yeah.
DD: That’s a long time.
LR: Fifty-eight years. Yeah, it’s been a very long time. This is my home.
DD: Can you tell me a story about your experience with PFAS or with PFAS in your community?
LR: Yes, 2017- I mean, I’m sorry- 2003- my daughter became very ill. She-she passed away in
2007. I kind of thought that it might be related to the water contamination that started way back in
1980s. Well, around 2014, after my daughter's death in 2007, I became even more concerned that
not only my daughter was ill in the community, so were many other children sick in the area, and
then- all my other children and now my grandchildren have become- have been born with some
kind of birth defect or later on got very sick. So, it-it was-it was- was the worst thing that could
ever happen to a family. The experiences- the- I mean, the whole living a life like that was horrific.
It was- it’s been a nightmare. Hospitals, surgeries, the-the costs, you know, and all the impacts, all
the effects, all the burdens, they-they were very heavy on me. Unfortunately, you know, we did
lose my daughter and one of my grand- my youngest daughter is in her end stages right now of
kidney failure. My granddaughter continues to have these terrible relapses of kidney disease since
she was two-years-old. She’s now going on fifth grade. She’s missed a lot of school and all that
but- So my experience was around 2014. I gave birth to the Mothers Safe Water Force. At that
time, after- soon after when I started- I started conducting a series of public health assessments,
you know, and-and just organizing the community. I was in touch with the centers for
environmental health and justice. Louis Gibbs, of course, and then- those people who just started
teaching me and just really training me, and telling me, you know, and just kind of just helping me
learn how to organize. I didn’t even know what to do. When I found out that the contamination I
thought was cleaned up since 20- since 1980s was still a problem in our community, and then
worse to find out that there was two new chemicals that were emerging, evolving safe drinking

1

�water standards and that- changing remediation methods. I did start doing the door knocking. I
wanted to know. The health department and water companies and all the people involved, the EPA.
You can imagine our site is a two part-and their part- is a two-part site. So, one of those sites is a
military site as well, and then the other one is not. So it’s-it’s very complicated system to try to
understand for an everyday mom. But I found out and I learned. I was determined. I wanna know
why all these people are sick. Are we sicker than others? And come to find out we were. I began
conducting these house surveys, door knocking, assessing the community, and people were just
sending their surveys by mail. I mean it- the word just got out. Before you knew it, we were no
longer the Mothers for Safe Water Force. We became the Environmental Justice Community
Movement. All the community members, I mean, we started organizing- before you knew it we
had thousands of people supporting it. Yeah, I mean, we filled up the ball rooms. We filled up thethe libraries. I mean, everywhere we went to have meetings, they were full packed. Where they
were maxed. Where librarians had to tell people, “sorry we can not let you in.” You know. People
were radical on Tucson Southside. I mean, they were getting radical. They wanted to know the
same things I wanted to know. Because all along we thought they cleaned it up in the 1980s. We
didn’t even know what a super fungicide was.
DD: Uh-huh.
LR: Yeah, so, then like I said, all these big organizations- all these big- you know these big
government officials- they were dodging. I mean, they just didn’t even want to talk to me.
Especially, when I was marching. We started marching in front of the offices. We started protesting
in front of the schools. We just started- just doing one movement to another. Just pushing and
pushing and pushing for PFAS regulations, PFAS, you know, investigation. And yeah- and that’s
how we became the Environmental Justice Task Force. And still to this day now, it seems that
everything I said in the beginning- because I did my research, I did my studies, I knew exactly
where the pollution was- reporters were coming to me to find out. U of A, stu- you know, students
were coming to me because I have a lot of information. How can somebody that dropped out in
the fifth grade because I was just young, you know. I- I grew up on a ranch with my family, and
we had horses- how can someone like that know, you know, know this type of work and I learned.
And I- and I found was- those- those disproportionately higher rates of cancer in our community.
The data wasn’t a lie. Our underground action tells the truth.
DD: Mhmn. Mhmn.
LR: That’s how we got the truth.
DD: Yeah.
LR: And-and to this day I am- I was not surprised that just a few weeks ago- we have been pushing
for the governor to see- to address PFAS. We’ve been pushing the DOD to address PFAS. We’ve
been pushing every government level to push for PFAS regulations. Stop the flow. Clean it up.
Shut it down. That’s what you gotta do. So last week, we did get a report from the news media that
the site will be shut down- not because it’s cleaned up. There’s not gonna a site closer because it’s
a site completion and it's been cleaned up. It’s gonna close because it’s become too extreme due
to PFAS exposures.

2

�DD: With all theLR: So, right now we are- Yeah. Sorry.
DD: No, go ahead. Please.
LR: Yeah, so right now we are forming a-a new project. We are standing in front of the schools
again. We are protesting. We are just letting people know, again. Something’s in that water. Andand we’re getting them information about these issues and keeping people- getting- keeping people
aware of the problem and just keep fighting until these people get some kind of justice.
DD: So it sounds like you’ve been involved with a lot of different actions in the last several years.
Have-have you had many successes? Or what-what has come of all these actions, in addition to
the very important work of just getting information out? Has anything resulted for you?
LR: Actually, yes. For the first project with Louise Gibbs, we were fighting to get the schools
tested. This was before PFAS was exposed. We were pushing test for PFAS. Test the schools. Test
for TCE. PAS dioxide. All those chemicals you found in that water, you go and test the schools.
Federal and state facilities. Public water systems. All came back positive. And for PAS. That
happened and I also- one of the things that I also was able to get- EPA to provide us with a technical
assistant in 2018. This is when they were just talking a little bit about PFAS. You know, there
wasn’t a lot of information they were going to give us about it, but they already knew they were
there, they were showing up. They’ve been there since 2009, but that information really wasn’t
coming to us. It was just between themselves.
DD: Mhmn.
LR: Another thing that I have done is that I have also become part of the PFAS National Coalition.
Very happy to be a part of that group. We’ve been pushing for PFAS regulations on all PFAS as a
class to the lowest levels, maximum contaminant levels, and also I have been part of the CDC
PFAS generating committee. During a time where, you know, they have been planning on a multisite study. I’ve been really happy to be a part of that development for PFAS blood testing project
multi-studies. And I’m really happy to be a part of that. Even though we were not a state picked
for that-for that study- I have been part of this development and the birth of it. That- That’s okay.
You know, and also, I have been able to just- to continue to support the project as well because
right now we are holding polluters accountable and we feel that they should pay for the clean up.
DD: And in your community, where is the pollution coming from?
LR: The Davis-Monthan Air Force Base, the Tucson airport, A remediation project, known as the
TARP, and also the Arizona Morris- Arizona International [Card?] base. Those are the main
corporate sources.
DD: Those three.

3

�LR: Yeah.
DD: And can you tell me the original contamination that was being found in the water back in thein the 80s? That was- that was- what was that contamination?
LR: So, in 1980s the 24 square mile area in our community was declared a super fungicide. It was
placed on the National Priorities list in 1992, I believe. Since then, PFAS and deoxine were
discovered. So that’s where we are right now. Currently with what EPA is saying about that clean
up- that was a TCE contamination. Yes, and due to that, which included the Tucson International
airport, and since then has become a steady project area. All under- under the super fun- whichwhich to me, is very disturbing because it’s done nothing for this community but has spread the
contamination outwards. It started out as a three mile long plume. And- I mean, you are finding
PFAS like that in Marana, the city of Marana. You’re finding it in the oil valley. And you have
found it in over probably 90 zip codes at exceeding levels. Yeah. I mean, the city has unfortunately
had to shut down many wells, city wells. They were also detected in the- some EPA and stateowned monitoring wells. Yeah. And I mean they’re just everywhere. They’re just everywhere,
they’re just so persistent. These-these chemicals are so persistent. They’re worse than those little
bugs flying around in your house going after the fruit.
[Both laugh]
LR: They’re just everywhere. Yeah. People are scared. People are stressing. People don’t know
what to believe. People don’t know what to believe. You know, another thing that has been so
unfortunate is that we have not had a lot of political support for the work. They have not
acknowledged us. They- we’re really not the team of people- or the team- the group of people they
like. We’ve been targeted to, you know. We’ve been lied about. You know- by-by big powerful
people, you know, political people have done everything in their power to disempower our
community too. You know, and-and to try to stop, you know, stop all this action and-and, you
know, and they are kind of acknowledging other groups that are politically involved as the-the
main people who are pushing when really it’s been us all along. Are- are com- This is where we
gave birth. This is where all of this happened, you know, when the PFAS was exposed. It was
because of the group and the community who took action. Who took action and started pushing
and saying enough is enough. We’ve been lied to for too long now. We demand government
transparency in this community because we were not given notice about these issues until way
later when it was already too late.
DD: Mhm. So what concerns do you have about PFAS contamination moving forward?
LR: I’m really concerned that, well, another thing that I'm really concerned about relating to the
P- surrounding the PFAS is just that most states have already had their children tested, families
tested, where PFAS has been found in public water systems. Our community is always last. Our
state is always last. And that’s unacceptable to us. That should not be- we should not be the last
all the time. You know? And-and I’m not saying the last in just the PFAS issue. We are always
the last state for just about everything. Even during COVID. We were like the last. You know.
You know? Yeah, you know. Always the last people- and states call us the wild west. You know.
We are known for that because it’s just terrible. And I have a feeling it’s because we are a

4

�significant latino community. We are. That’s one of our largest challenges. And then, not only
that, but we are- we also carry a high amount of immigrants- Mexican-American immigrants andand I believe that is one of our greatest challenges.
DD: For the Tucson area specifically or Arizona the state?
LR: Arizona the state. But yeah- but in Tucson alone we are a very significant- very significant
population of immigrants.
DD: Mhm hmn.
LR: And yeah. So that’s really tough on us because the problem is underestimated. Those people
are not being counted for.
DD: Mhm hmn.
LR: But now- Yeah. But we’ve- But we’ve had a lot of them that don’t let- you know what man I
don’t care. I ain’t got my papers, man. I’m going to stand up with you guys, and you know what,
we want this water cleaned up. We got our family here. We got, you know grass roots here. You
know what- this is unacceptable. This is coming against the, [unclear]. You know, and-and this is
how- latinos- when we get together, we fight together. We fall together and we get up together.
And, and I believe that-that is very powerful. I love it. I love them. I love my people. You know,
and it’s not just because- we are diverse. Our group is diverse. It’s just because by nature we are
just living- we are a large population in the Arizona area.
DD: Hmm.
LR: That doesn’t give somebody- you know what I mean, that doesn’t give somebody- that oh
they’re just a bunch of mexicans. They can wait. That’s not okay.
DD: Well, it sounds likeLR: So, we haven’t been tested. We haven’t been tested for PFAS. That would be nice.
DD: Have people pursued being tested on their own?
LR: We are trying to. We are very poor. This is a very poor area. And in a more populated area,
and [unclear] justice community area, so yeah, we-we got a lot of those, disproportionate, you
know, on our side, you know, that-that- it’s not helping us. So what we are trying to do is just- we
are trying to raise that money up. Car washes. Whatever we got to do. But- yeah. We were able to
raise money during the Louis Gibbs project when we were fighting to get all the schools tested for
PFAS and those chemicals, we were able to have car washes. You had 83-year-olds helping out at
the car washes, you know?
DD: Yeah.

5

�LR: Yeah. It was awesome. We raised enough money to hire our own private environmental
engineers to oversee the work, and saw the work that they were doing in that town. And we hope
that with this new project we can raise that money, not only just to test people, but to also raise
enough money to provide them with clean water. We are demanding clean water. Safe water.
Surprise. Whether you have to pry them from another state- bring them. We don’t want this water
anymore. It’s- It’s not okay with us.
DD: Before we wrap up, is there anything else that you would like to add that we haven’t touched
on today or anything you would like to go back to and say more about?
LR: If it’s possible, I would like to just touch up a little bit on the fact that another big challenge
for us is that we don’t get a lot of social media interest. It’s really hard to get people- reporters and
Channel Nine news, and those people. Because the polluters are all contracted with these
newspapers. They’re also contracted with these- you know, to TV stations and reporters, so when
we call them to come and talk to our community, that’s- that’s us. It never happens. If you mention
Tucson Water, that they’re involved, they won’t even come out. They don’t wanna hear it. They
favor them. And they- they believe what they hear from them. They don’t hear- they don’t want to
hear the voice of the community, which are very important. Yeah. Some- we’ve had some good
and some bad, but even the good that we had all turned later. You know, it started off good, but
then it ended bad because then it started- the stories went from us, to you know, talking their side
of the story, and their side made us look like a bunch of dummies that don’t know what they’re
talking about. But, thank God that- that the Lord has exposed them and that just recently, and it
has become more evident that everything we said in the beginning has been true all along. We got
so many people sick here. So many people died during Covid. A lot of people have auto-immune
diseases in this community. And I hope this- that we can add this- that value to you, your story and
your project, and that’s what I got to say, thank you. Thank you. Thank you for all that you are
doing. God bless you for that. God bless you.
DD: Well, thank you, Linda, for sharing your story and taking the time to do this. It’s a big part of
the project is increasing the diversity of the voices in this conversation, so I'm really glad to be
talking with you today.
LR: Thank you.

6

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                    <text>William James College Interviews
GV016-16
Interviewer: Barbara Roos
Interviewee: Linda Rogers
Date: 1984

[Rogers]

I only went there because of the Women's Studies program and a friend of mine
was going there. And so, I really knew nothing about William James, whatsoever,
until I got there and got in my first class.

[Barbara]

And then what did you find out? [Inaudible]

[Rogers]

Well, the first thing I realized is that even though… because I was in the class, it
was Social Economics with Berry Castro, and I felt stupid. I felt like I didn't say
anything and just sat there, and all these older people around, and I was the
youngest person in the class, obviously. But my first realization was that I am
important, and I have an opinion, and I have an eighteen-year-old’s opinion, and
that is important to the class. Just as the forty-year-old over there, her opinion is
just as valid as mine. And all the different perspectives, the age, the different
ages was scary at first, but it was something I had to go through and was great
for my self-esteem. I realized that I'm important and I have something to say. And
people would listen and integrate it. That was probably my first whiff of William
James. And then immediately after that was the no grade. And I didn't know what
to think of that when I first got there, but then I sort of… it changed me. I realize
that I was doing my education for myself and no one else. You know I had to be
truthful with myself because credit meant only, you know, an understanding
between myself and a professor and it didn't project anything to my parents, or
my friends, or my colleagues. It just said credit and I knew what that meant. So,
that just sort of helped me to get a grip on my whole education, basically. And
that whatever I was going to do, it depended on me, basically, to get what I
wanted out of it. And I that was a radical change from high school, very radical.
Didn't improve my studentship, actually.

[Barbara]

Then what happened? So, there you are at the College of Liberal Studies and
you get a sense of the [Inaudible] education and it seems to be working. Then
what happened?

[Rogers]

Then I got a little bit more courageous. Started taking… I felt a little bit more
confident when I took on a new professor. And I started meeting the different
professors and realizing that I liked everything about the school. I liked the
people, liked my professors; I really was enjoying college and I'd been really
apprehensive about it. Then I realized that my professors were my equals. That
they were not something godly or so far above me that I had to think lesser of

�myself – that came soon after. You know just sort of that repertoire that you… I
had with my professors. It was just another great development.
[Rogers]

I've been interested in WIB ever since I had been a freshman because I knew
about it when the paper had come out – it was a real good issue. And I saw the
women in the skylight room folding them, and stapling them, and putting the
addresses on and I'm like: "I wonder how they got into that and how they all knew
each other." And at the time I was still feeling like a girl and I hadn't, you know,
totally realized that I was a woman, and I probably wasn't. So, I was anxious
about… I wanted to dive into it and get involved and be a part of that, but I didn't
recognize my womanhood yet, so I was a little shy about doing that. And finally, I
got to know some of the women that were involved in it and they were leaving
and they're like: "Linda you have to do it, you have to carry on because everyone
else is gone." And so here I was in charge of the whole thing and I had no idea
what I was doing. But by that time, I knew I was a woman… I had a lot more faith
in myself and issues at hand. I was more up on the women's issues that needed
to be focused on in the paper. So, yeah, WIB was a big part of my sort of
extracurricular but at the same time it had everything to do with what I was
learning in classes.

[Barbara]

Did you find any time conflict between the structure of James and Women's
Issues? Was it a difference in support structure; was it policy structure?

[Rogers]

Well, I think it was very supportive at William James. It was supportive. The way
we were looked upon at WIB, was sort of, from the people that were not directly
involved with James, we were sort of looked at the same way as some… the
perspective was a little bit more radical or whatever. I don't mean to use that
word, but different and alternative and so I think in the same way that WIB was
threatening, James was the same sort of threatening feeling that people got. And
I think that's probably why I was brought or dove into the WIB stuff immediately
after James was gone because it filled that gap.

[Barbara]

Okay, tell me how you lived through the changes through your organization.
What happened in your organization?

[Rogers]

I lost a lot of contact with – probably was my own fault – with professors. I mean,
it was still students around and I knew that I didn't need four walls to keep that
comradery and that community feeling. You know, I could still see someone and
know that feeling was there, and the mutual understandings were there. But at
that point I withdrew from my professors and I couldn't really do it from my fellow
students - because they're my friends – but mostly the profs. And so, there was a
good year – well maybe not a year, but a couple of semesters – where I didn't
drop in and visit. I just sort of felt like, I don't know, there was some static there.
Probably resentfulness at myself and them – for everybody – for just letting it

�happen.
[Rogers]

And I finally did go talk to some, you know, some favorites or close ones that I've
become very good friends with. "How do we do this? How do we get through?"
And not like I wanted an answer but "What are you doing?" Just, you know, little
support… a mini support group. Yeah, I kept going and it was a good opportunity
for me to, at that point, go out into the outer parts of Grand Valley and meet new
professors and new students.

[Barbara]

Did you feel any static going back into a conventional classroom?

[Rogers]

At first – yes. There were a couple of teachers that I liked at my first meeting with
them. But the other way, their grading system and how they… I went up to one
professor and I went to his office and said: "What is a grading system? What do
you… how do you grade? How do you know what grades are? Somebody's got
to tell me because it's been a couple years since." And I never really knew in
junior high what it meant anyway. So, he explained it to me, and I didn't agree
with it. And that was all I could do is just not agree. And I had to just fall back on
what I learned at the beginning when I went to James… was that I know what I've
learned and that's what's important and if he doesn't think the same thing and if
he decides to give me such and such a grade then that's fine, but I still have to
be strong and know that what I did was worthwhile.

[Barbara]

Do you think that there was something we should have done that we didn't do
that would have [Inaudible]? By “we” I mean the faculty or… you know.

[Rogers]

Like after the closing…?

[Barbara]

No.

[Rogers]

Beforehand?

[Barbara]

How did they screw up that they managed to close us?

[Rogers]

That's a big one. I know the time that there were students that we were trying to
get student representation on a larger scale and more official level, then we could
of all gone in there [Inaudible] said no. But we… in some way, I knew that wasn't
going to work. And I just felt like it was being sat on by this big thing and I
couldn't push it up, whether I had all my friends around me helping me or not.
There wasn't a whole lot I could do about it and that is not a good attitude. That
was probably why I feel so bad about the whole thing is because no one really
tried even though, you know… I sort of just knew before I even tried that my
trying wasn't going to work. But I don't know that though. I can't know that.

�[Barbara]

It’s a bad lesson, isn't it?

[Rogers]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Barbara]

That's how I feel about it. It's a bad lesson.

[Rogers]

And… I don't know. I don't know.

[Barbara]

John ask her something.

[John]

Okay. Well [Inaudible], if William James was considered an experiment, do you
think that it failed in its mission?

[Rogers]

No.

[John]

Do you think the whole experience has or what you experienced at the end?

[Rogers]

I knew that the school itself wasn't a failure and that as an experiment it was
not… that the potential for it to just go on and on. I could have… I mean, if there
was, you know, no outside forces demanding its end and eating it up with their
other interests like athletics or whatever – that was another issue. But the school
itself was a successful experiment.

[John]

Could you characterize the kind of student that was supporting James and also
perhaps how that characterization changed as it started to reorganize and then
compare that to the kind of student who was in other parts of the college?

[Rogers]

Yeah.

[John]

You said earlier that some of the qualities aren't there.

[Rogers]

Yeah. Well, I don't know if it was a result. I think it's… see I was not drawn to
James because I knew of it. And probably there were many like myself but I think
in general they were open-minded and willing to listen to all those different points
of view. And that was something I learned at William James, you know, that was
a quality and a philosophy that was necessary to survive there and to get the
best of it that you could. And I know that there's a lot of open-minded people in
the world and you don't necessarily have to be a James student to know what
that's like, but that was one quality that I noticed in everyone that went to James.
And it was less that the farther and further you got away from it, you just couldn't
trust for that to be there.

[Rogers]

You know it might be there and it may not be there, but you couldn't count on it
being there. And if you were to go into a class after the closing of James… I went

�into a class and I didn't know anyone, and I didn't know the professor and I just
had to sit down and carry on. It wasn't a whole lot different. It was always a
challenge, you know, at James and just going out into the new world of Grand
Valley. And I guess that was expected of you eventually at James; for you to
integrate into Grand Valley. And so that was going to be a step anyway, whether
the school closed or not. So, I didn't go out there with probably… I could've gone
out there with a lot more confidence if I had James standing behind me. But with
it closed I just had to carry on. It took a lot of strength and took a lot of courage to
just continue being what you were and what you learned and trying to use the
James philosophies in the class and use as many as you could in as many ways
that you could.
[John]

William James College was very well recognized in the method of it using
internships and placements for training. You were in Social Relations and got an
internship and a job that would help you. Can you tell something about that? It
probably worked well for you.

[Rogers]

It worked well. It was ideal. I had this… the way, ideally, is it could work that you
got an internship, and it could possibly turn into a job, and it did for myself when I
started a Domestic Crisis Center. And it was ideal also because probably half the
staff at the Domestic Crisis Center was William James already. And so, I felt –
even at my job – I felt a connectedness with James. And after it closed, you
know, people were still around. It was real nice and it was absolutely necessary.
And the whole theory behind going from school into the actual job placement
while you're still in school, it just rounded me out like that. It just rounded me…
it's really nice.

[John]

Okay, here's the closer – it’s what we ask everybody. Think about this a second
and answer: What was the essence of William James College?

[Barbara]

In a sentence or two.

[Rogers]

The essence… the first thing that comes to my mind is friendship. I felt loved. I
wasn't just at a school that was, you know, we were all learning, going into premed or something like that. We all knew each other, we all respected each other,
but there was love.

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                    <text>Young	&#13;   L ords	&#13;  
In	&#13;  Lincoln	&#13;  Park	&#13;  

Interviewee:	&#13;  Linda	&#13;  Turner	&#13;  
Interviewers:	&#13;  Jose	&#13;  Jimenez	&#13;  
Location:	&#13;  Grand	&#13;  Valley	&#13;  State	&#13;  University	&#13;  Special	&#13;  Collections	&#13;  
Date:	&#13;  2015	&#13;  
Runtime:	&#13;  00:38:33	&#13;  
	&#13;  

	&#13;  
	&#13;  

Biography	&#13;  and	&#13;  Description	&#13;  

Oral	&#13;  history	&#13;  of	&#13;  Linda	&#13;  Turner,	&#13;  interviewed	&#13;  by	&#13;  Jose	&#13;  “Cha-­‐Cha”	&#13;  Jimenez	&#13;  in	&#13;  2015	&#13;  about	&#13;  the	&#13;  Young	&#13;  Lords	&#13;  in	&#13;  
Lincoln	&#13;  Park.	&#13;  
Linda	&#13;  Turner	&#13;  was	&#13;  born	&#13;  in	&#13;  1941	&#13;  and	&#13;  became	&#13;  an	&#13;  activist	&#13;  in	&#13;  1965	&#13;  after	&#13;  viewing	&#13;  the	&#13;  movie	&#13;  Judgement	&#13;  at	&#13;  
Nuremberg	&#13;  which	&#13;  she	&#13;  said	&#13;  was	&#13;  followed	&#13;  by	&#13;  news	&#13;  about	&#13;  police	&#13;  beating	&#13;  demonstrators	&#13;  during	&#13;  the	&#13;  civil	&#13;  
rights	&#13;  March	&#13;  to	&#13;  Selma,	&#13;  Alabama.	&#13;  She	&#13;  later	&#13;  joined	&#13;  the	&#13;  Congress	&#13;  of	&#13;  Racial	&#13;  Equality	&#13;  (C.O.R.E.)	&#13;  in	&#13;  Chicago	&#13;  
headed	&#13;  by	&#13;  James	&#13;  Foreman.	&#13;  	&#13;  
Her	&#13;  first	&#13;  action	&#13;  was,	&#13;  her	&#13;  and	&#13;  others	&#13;  chaining	&#13;  themselves	&#13;  in	&#13;  a	&#13;  circle	&#13;  at	&#13;  McCormick	&#13;  Place	&#13;  in	&#13;  downtown	&#13;  
Chicago	&#13;  protesting	&#13;  what	&#13;  was	&#13;  going	&#13;  on	&#13;  down	&#13;  south	&#13;  with	&#13;  violations	&#13;  of	&#13;  the	&#13;  civil	&#13;  rights	&#13;  of	&#13;  Blacks.	&#13;  
She	&#13;  went	&#13;  to	&#13;  Cuba	&#13;  as	&#13;  part	&#13;  of	&#13;  the	&#13;  second	&#13;  Venceremos	&#13;  Brigade	&#13;  of	&#13;  about	&#13;  800	&#13;  volunteers	&#13;  that	&#13;  went	&#13;  to	&#13;  help	&#13;  
in	&#13;  the	&#13;  sugar	&#13;  cane	&#13;  harvest.	&#13;  Upon	&#13;  coming	&#13;  back	&#13;  she	&#13;  participated	&#13;  in	&#13;  the	&#13;  Young	&#13;  Lords	&#13;  Manuel	&#13;  Ramos	&#13;  March	&#13;  

�and	&#13;  also	&#13;  entered	&#13;  McCormick	&#13;  Theological	&#13;  Seminary	&#13;  during	&#13;  the	&#13;  full	&#13;  week	&#13;  take-­‐over	&#13;  led	&#13;  by	&#13;  the	&#13;  Young	&#13;  Lords	&#13;  
with	&#13;  the	&#13;  Puerto	&#13;  Rican	&#13;  Community	&#13;  and	&#13;  other	&#13;  Lincoln	&#13;  Park	&#13;  activists.	&#13;  Linda	&#13;  joined	&#13;  the	&#13;  People’s	&#13;  Information	&#13;  
Center	&#13;  which	&#13;  like	&#13;  the	&#13;  Young	&#13;  Lords	&#13;  had	&#13;  community	&#13;  programs	&#13;  modeled	&#13;  after	&#13;  the	&#13;  Black	&#13;  Panther	&#13;  Survival	&#13;  
Programs	&#13;  and	&#13;  they	&#13;  supported	&#13;  the	&#13;  Rainbow	&#13;  Coalition.	&#13;  She	&#13;  describes	&#13;  a	&#13;  political	&#13;  base	&#13;  of	&#13;  activists	&#13;  being	&#13;  
formed	&#13;  around	&#13;  Halsted	&#13;  from	&#13;  Armitage	&#13;  to	&#13;  about	&#13;  Lincoln	&#13;  Avenue.	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  
Linda	&#13;  would	&#13;  help	&#13;  design	&#13;  flyers	&#13;  for	&#13;  Chairman	&#13;  Fred	&#13;  Hampton,	&#13;  sold	&#13;  the	&#13;  Panther	&#13;  newspapers,	&#13;  but	&#13;  most	&#13;  
important	&#13;  she	&#13;  transcribed	&#13;  depositions	&#13;  of	&#13;  Red	&#13;  Squad	&#13;  spies	&#13;  for	&#13;  the	&#13;  People’s	&#13;  Law	&#13;  Office	&#13;  while	&#13;  they	&#13;  were	&#13;  
being	&#13;  prosecuted,	&#13;  and	&#13;  she	&#13;  said	&#13;  that	&#13;  she	&#13;  was	&#13;  able	&#13;  to	&#13;  witness	&#13;  many	&#13;  of	&#13;  the	&#13;  infiltrators	&#13;  who	&#13;  she	&#13;  had	&#13;  
thought	&#13;  were	&#13;  activists	&#13;  but	&#13;  were	&#13;  in	&#13;  fact	&#13;  paid	&#13;  spies.	&#13;  	&#13;  
	&#13;  

�Transcript

LINDA TURNER:

-- this little suburban Evanston girl.

F:

(laughs) There you go.

LT:

Yeah.

JOSE JIMENEZ:

(inaudible) A suburban what?

F:

You asked about --

LT:

No, so when are you starting? You got to say all go or --

(break in audio)
JJ:

Okay. Okay, Linda, if you want to give me your name and maybe the age and
where you were born and that.

LT:

My name is Linda Turner, I was born in 1941. You do the math. And I became
an activist in 1965. I remember precisely because it turned out to be a very
momentous moment (laughs) for a lot of northern people to get involved in the
civil rights movement that was going on down South. That was the first
nationwide showing of the film Judgement at Nuremburg and when it ended and
the, if you know the movie, it’s about the trial of Nazis who were responsible for
exterminating millions of people in Germany, Austria, around. [00:01:00] Not only
Jews but gypsies and communists and political enemies and gay people. Lots of
folks. And at the end, you’re left with the message that if you care about people,
you have, you can’t just sit back and let it happen. You have to be like the few
good Germans and do something about it. Right after the movie ends, on comes
the news and what’s on the news but Alabama state troopers plug, clubbing

1

�demonstrators on the Pettus Bridge in -- is it Alabama? Was it -- now I’ve
forgotten -- Selma. They’re on their way to Selma, Alabama and that was my
signal. I immediately connected. If I feel upset about people sitting by and not
doing anything about injustices to someone, I had to get involved in this. So the
next morning, I joined CORE. And within a week, we were at McCormick Place
at the boat show that they, [00:02:00] the tourism show they held every year. I
think this was the old one before that one -- I think it’s the one that burned down
eventually. And we chained ourselves in a circle in front of the Alabama booth
with the state trooper standing there. We ran a chain link through our coats so
you didn’t see the chains until we got there and padlocked ourselves. So, the
front page of the Tribune the next day was cops carrying out, because we went
limp, carrying out these demonstrators (laughs) like sacks from McCormick
Place. And we were jailed, got out the next day, we went back, did it again. No
security there. They let us back in, we did it again. I remember the story
because that night, I ate Chinese food and got a fortune in my fortune cookie that
said you feel refreshed after a relaxing weekend and ready to tackle [00:03:00]
the world. So, my feeling was I was active in CORE for a long time. From there,
it kept growing. The anti-war movement, from the civil rights movement to the
anti-war movement just like Dr. King and start making the connections between
them. And I think once you’re an activist, it’s hard to stop being one. You’re
always -JJ:

What kind of work did you do in CORE?

LT:

Oh, I did in the ’80s, oh, well, ’70s, I went to Cuba. I’ve been to Cuba five times.

2

�So, when they make a big fuss about Beyonce and Jay-Z going to Cuba,
anybody can really go to Cuba now. You can say, “I want to investigate the arts
and culture of Cuba,” you can go. But I wish they would stop the blockade
already. I’ve been involved in various ways of trying to end the blockade against
Cuba for all these years. I was part of the Chicago Cuba Committee which did
work on that that was, it was an educational organization. I went on the second
[00:04:00] Venceremos Brigade; there were 700 of us. We cut sugarcane and I
still have a picture of Fidel with his machete talking in this big circle of people and
that was the brigade that I was on. We left just after Fred Hampton had been
murdered, December of ’69, and we returned after cutting sugar cane and touring
the island just before May Day of 1970. And when we returned, we were
confronted with the fact of Manuel Ramos’ death. I don’t remember all the
details. He was killed at a gigantic May Day march. Somewhere in my files of
memorabilia, I have pictures of it with banners and everything. It was really
beautiful. And we felt like we were, that was a connection between the struggle
of the Cuban people, the Puerto Rican people, and all oppressed people, in
Chicago, everywhere. [00:05:00] it was very moving. I went on to, at that time, a
storefront community organization called the People’s Information Center opened
and I became a part of that along with several other friends. We did programs
that other participants in the Rainbow Coalition did. The Young Lords also.
Breakfast for Children program, worked on a free people’s health clinic, just all
kinds of good things in the community.
JJ:

Where was it located?

3

�LT:

This was in Lincoln Park right on Halsted Street. On one side of us, we had the
People’s Law Office which is a whole other story, and a few doors down, we had
the women’s liberation, Chicago Women’s Liberation Union office. So, it was a
very progressive block. And in fact, after urban renewal cleared the land
between I think Dickens and [00:06:00] Armitage, there was a People’s Park built
and I remember specifically a 26th of July celebration where we roasted a pig. I
won’t describe how the pig was attired. And it just went on. I went into, I came
into an organization of activists that did a lot of work against US intervention in
Nicaragua, El Salvador, Guatemala, for many years called the US Anti-Imperialist
League. It was after -- there was initially many years ago an anti-imperialist
league and that’s what it was named after. But we did a lot of film showings and
sponsoring speakers, educating people. There were lots of demonstrations at
consulates. There was always something going on. I’m trying to follow this
chronologically [00:07:00] because for -- what else did I do during those years?
I’ll probably remember later. I’m 71 years old so you gotta cut me some slack,
you know? Every detail won’t be there in the right order. But about 12 years
ago, I had to move to Las Vegas -- actually, I live in Henderson -- because my
mother who at the time was almost 96 could no longer live alone. So, she moved
from Florida and I moved from Chicago, leaving my daughter and my little
grandbaby behind. And stayed with my mother and she lived another five years
because she finally had her family around her. My brother lived there already so
for the first time in many years, my brother and I and my mother were all together
in the same neighborhood. So, it was a very good five years for her. She almost

4

�made it to 101. Now, I find so many of my friends are taking care of their
mothers. It’s usually [00:08:00] the mothers. So that’s another link I have with
friends is the experience of the reversal of the mother becomes the daughter and
the daughter becomes the mother in a way. So that’s where I am now. I come to
Chicago every year for a week to see my friends and family. But I’ve, my skin
has got, my blood has gotten too thin to live here all year-round especially in the
winter. So that’s why I am where I am. And there, whenever MoveOn has a
demonstration whether it’s against gun violence or whatever legislation is coming
up, I work on campaigns, work with OFA which has been, had many incarnations.
Obama for America, Organizing for America, now it’s Organizing for Action. So, I
just keep doing that because I feel that if I [00:09:00] stop doing that, I lose my
connection with the world. And it kind of, it’s good exercise. Walking a picket line
never hurt anybody if you can put one leg in front of the other so...
JJ:

So you came to CORE, from CORE --

LT:

Yeah.

JJ:

-- in the, in ’60- --

LT:

Right. I joined from CORE the next morning. It was headed by James Forman
at the time.

JJ:

And was that located in Chicago?

LT:

In Chicago, yes.

JJ:

Okay.

LT:

And for a time, I was secretary of the organization and then there was Northside
CORE, Westside, Southside, they had various branches.

5

�JJ:

But I don’t understand. What was the difference between them and some of
other civil rights --

LT:

Well, Congress on Racial Equality didn’t limit itself to students. It was for all
ages, it was very integrated. But there came a time, it was after the Black Power
Movement, when there was pressure for white people to take, to especially step
down from leadership positions. That it was time for Black people to lead their
struggle. [00:10:00] I had no problem with that, so I did. Other people took
office. But it didn’t mean that we weren’t supportive, white people who no longer
officers or whatever in CORE. I liked the organization and I liked James Forman
and it was very active at the time.

JJ:

What was he like in the --

LT:

Well, I only met James Forman once very briefly. There’s actually a movie, I
should press my brain and try to remember, that talks about his youth. Denzel
Washington played a union organizer in it. The Young Debaters. If you ever get
a chance to see it, it’s great because there’s a kid there who was a son of a
minister who grows up to, who’s James Forman. And this kind of shows you how
his introduction to things like the labor movement and debating. He was a very
articulate and powerful speaker. He was part of the Black colleges debate that
ended up win-- [00:11:00] beating the Ivy-League schools and winning a
championship in debating. It’s very good skill to have so...

JJ:

Now, you mentioned Manuel Ramos and then you mentioned Fred Hampton.
What do you recall of Fred Hampton?

LT:

Oh, I, because I knew him. I mean, I think it wasn’t even weeks, not even a

6

�week, before his death that I was the one that took a flyer that we had designed.
There had been an attack by the Chicago police on the apartment that -- it wasn’t
Fred Hampton’s apartment; it was an office or something. And let me think. So,
there was a big rally planned on behalf of the people who had been injured and
jailed from that raid, not the one that killed [00:12:00] Fred. So, we designed a
flyer to be passing out to mobilized people -JJ:

The Information --

LT:

Now, this is before the internet.

JJ:

The Information Center?

LT:

Yeah. Well, yes, it was. I took it over to the office on Madison and showed it to
Fred and he’s the one who changed the location. It was going to be a different
location, I don’t remember which, but it ended up being at the church on Ashland
where they had many events and a few minor little changes and took it back --

JJ:

On Madison -- Ashland and Madison?

LT:

Well, there was a church on Ashland near Adams, I believe. It wasn’t far from the
electric workers’ union hall. It was that, there was a strip there and that’s where
the rally was scheduled to happen. So went back, made the changes, went to -this is maybe a day later. Went to the printing press, Omega Press, progressive
printers in Hyde Park. And I was, I spent the night waiting for the flyer to be
[00:13:00] done. And in the morning, about 6:00 in the morning, I got a phone
call from Sue Jan telling me what had happened. Chairman Fred had been
murdered. So needless to say, everything but the heading, the header came off,
all the illustration, everything else stayed the same. The place, the time, and it

7

�was reprinted and I waited for it and brought it back north. And yes, I remember
that.
JJ:

How did it impact you and some of the other organizers?

LT:

Well, we were just about to leave for Cuba and I remember one of the things that
people decided that the brigadistas would do -- because we did various
community service kinds of things in training before we left together -- was to
stand guard, to stand witness at the Panther office on Madison. So, we’d stand
up and down the stairways, in case there was a [00:14:00] attack or something,
here’d be all these people standing there waiting, watching. I remember that.
And I knew a lot of the Panthers because we, I was one of the people like many
of us at the Information Center who sold the Black Panther Paper all the time.
So, I would be the one who would drive my little Toyota over there and would
load it, John Preston would load up the car with Panther papers, take them back
north and sell them at El stops and everywhere. Good paper. And then as I say,
there, between the, there was a Young Patriots organization, later there was
Rising Up Angry, there was the Panther Party, there was the Young Lords,
people’s information, all these groups that were really showed an example of the
Rainbow Coalition by our skin and by our politics. The solidarity [00:15:00]
among the peoples in the community and that was what --

JJ:

How would you describe that? I mean --

LT:

Well, I mean because you could see organizations and individuals working
together toward common goals following the -- especially for white people -following leadership of third-world people. Or you know, Black People, Puerto

8

�Rican, Mexican, whatever. Brown people, Black people, that we followed their
example. The Panther Party started the Breakfast for Children programs, the
Serve the People programs, STP. So that, I think, in itself sent a message in
terms of who, of leadership not being for people like me. Formerly white
suburban kids at one tine to come in and feel that somehow, we could run it. And
no, we couldn’t, because we didn’t have that contact with the community, that
[00:16:00] understanding of what needed to be done. So, it was a great learning
experience for a lot of people to work with the Panthers, the Young Lords, no
matter what it was about.
JJ:

You said contact with the community. What do you mean?

LT:

Well, like even in Lincoln Park. There was a, there were a lot of Puerto Rican
people in Lincoln Park, the place where I lived was pretty white. It was like a
merging of -- they call it the base now, a political base. That that became
everyone’s base. All the progressive factors in a community. So, I just thought it
was important for people to see that when the politics are right, it can pull people
together, to work together to accomplish good things.

JJ:

What would, geographically, what would be a base?

LT:

Well, when I talk about Lincoln Park, I talk about that area between, because it
had, oh, I’d say Arm-- between [00:17:00] Armitage and Belden even in terms of
where people were located. Because you were, the Young Lords’ church was on
Dayton and Armitage, the People’s Information Center, the People’s Law Office,
the Women’s Union were all on Halsted between them so those were some basic
organizations. People lived in lots of places.

9

�JJ:

What were some of the demonstrations like?

LT:

Well, I remember when -- wasn’t it the Young Lords who helped take over
McCormick Seminary? We were there, too. It was saying a lot in terms of what
McCormick Seminary should give back to the community. It was, it got a lot of
media coverage. And in fact, in the end, McCormick Seminary did acquiesce to
do some, I can’t remember exactly, but I know that in some [00:18:00] way, that
sit-in, that occupation was successful in that it did rest some power from that
institution in the community.

JJ:

Were you inside or...?

LT:

Well, I had been in there. I didn’t occupy, no. I didn’t live in there. Occupation,
the occupy came later. I was part of occupy in Las Vegas.

JJ:

Okay.

LT:

Occupy Las Vegas, what better place to occupy? (laughs) Occupy a casino. But
that’s what I remember. And that was very important and I think it kind of set an
example that institutions in a community have an obligation to support the
interest of the people in the community, not just -- it was, in fact, walled-off. It
had this black, wrought-iron fence all the way around it. Do you remember? And
tried to be like an isolated island in the community and I think people showed that
it couldn’t be. It had to relate to the community it [00:19:00] existed in.

JJ:

Now, you mentioned Manuel Ramos. What do you remember of that?

LT:

Well, I’m, I was trying to rack my brain to try to understand. I think I must have
met him at least. I didn’t know him well. But I know that by, when we returned
from Cuba just before May Day, that’s what we learned. In Cuba, we heard

10

�nothing about what was going on back in the States. I mean, we didn’t have cell
phones (laughs) or the internet or anything like that. So, this is what we were
told when we got back that he had been killed by police. Was it a police? I don’t
remember the details but I do remember the turnout. That it was just this very
impressive -- there were pictures that showed people six abreast walking down
the middle of the street. I don’t know if it was Division or what it was. But I
remember that occasion because it seemed so apropos to come back from Cuba
[00:20:00] and see this massing of progressive people demonstrating against the
kind of attacks that police were pulling off. In fact later, when I actually held a 9to-5 job, I worked on the Red Squad spy suit and a lot of the people who spied
on activists in Lincoln Park and elsewhere were, the lawyers got special
permission to do, not court reporters which were so expensive, but actually have
tape-record the depositions of these spies and I was one of the people who
transcribed. That’s the first transcription job I ever, transcribed those depositions
so that we -- and I could see people walk through the office at the Better
Government Association to their conference room for their deposition and
recognize -JJ:

These are police?

LT:

-- me and I would recognize them.

JJ:

These are police, undercover police?

LT:

Yeah. The Red Squad started I think in the ’30s and they initiated to spy
[00:21:00] on labor, labor unions, infiltrate them. Report to the police. It went
through the peace movement, the anti-war movement, the civil rights movement.

11

�It was always there. In fact, I think Michael Moore had a movie that talks about
those kind of, that kind of infiltration. Of cops going to meetings and everything.
And people who -- when they walked through that conference room and I looked
at them and they knew who I was, because they’d spied on me and a lot of other
people, it was, it just kind of this feeling like, “We got you now. We know what
you are. You’re not a progressive person, you are a spy for the cops all this
time.”
JJ:

So, you actually saw your name in the files or...?

LT:

Well, I was part -- oh, yeah. I was part, I have my file. Of course, when you get
your file, did you ever get your file? It’s all redacted. Big black lines through
everything that would [00:22:00] indicate who it was that was reporting this
information about you. And there was a cop who every time I came out of
Montana Street apartment, [Maurey Daley?]. He’d be sitting in a, unmarked car,
waved to me, followed me wherever I went. That kind of intimidation. It was just
kind of -- some of it was just silliness.

JJ:

So, you were saying they were going through to the meetings? What are the,
what else did they do?

LT:

They went to, they came to meetings whether it was civil rights or community
meetings or whatever as if they were ordinary people. I don’t want to name
names --

JJ:

No, no.

LT:

And then, once this --

JJ:

But can you describe some of the things that they were --

12

�LT:

Pardon?

JJ:

Can you describe some of the things they were doing?

LT:

When they came to meetings, and demonstrations, they didn’t stand out from
anybody else. It was a nice person, a teacher maybe, who believed in, claimed
to believe in something and came. And showed up with a sign or whatever. But
they were there to take names down. Who was at the meeting? Who said
[00:23:00] what? That kind of stuff. And it happened all over the country but
we’re familiar with it as the Red Squad. So, and back in the early ’80s, that was
my job at the BGA. I was transcribing those things and working solely on the
suit. And the files of people who were spied on and the spies were all stored
there. So, I could walk into the file room with dozens of file cabinets in it and my
file was in there, my Red Squad file. So, I was part of the class action.

JJ:

So, what about, is that COINTELPRO? Is that the same thing or...?

LT:

Not exactly. I mean, it, in a way it was because there were other suits at the
same time.

JJ:

I mean, what do you, can you describe COINTELPRO? What is that?

LT:

That was uncovered in the Percy hearings, I think. What, weren’t they? That it
was a national, run by the FBI especially. COINTELPRO was [00:24:00] Counter
Intelligence Program and they tracked the plot to kill Fred Hampton through
COINTELPRO. The Red Squad thing was a different thing. I really have no idea
or recollection how much of the local operation was influenced or mandated by
national COINTELPRO. I only know what happened here. And at the same
time, we also had a suit against military intelligence and the FBI so different

13

�offices handled different aspects of the lawsuit. The lawyers’ committee to
defend a bill of rights I believe had the suit against the FBI. And another
organization, I can’t quite remember which it was, that had the other part. So, I
didn’t, I did a lot of the typing of the brief for it. I mean, being a secretary had its
advantages. I was also the secretary in the Hampton civil suit. [00:25:00] And I
still have the fly page from the notebook that the People’s Law Office gave me.
This was before computers. I did it on my IBM electric typewriter; it was red.
They would come to my house every night and sit around my dining room table
and edit pages and I’d have to go and cut and paste and put the document
together. Basic-- the NACP gave them a grant only for secretarial help like that.
So, before the lawyers saw a penny, I was being paid which I kind of felt bad
about because -- but then again, I was earning a living. But they didn’t get paid
till the settlement happened.
JJ:

And what were some of the things that came out in the trial in the ’70s?

LT:

Well, in the -- the documents --

JJ:

(coughs) Excuse me.

LT:

-- were, it was the complaint against the Chicago Red Squad. It was [00:26:00]
incident after incident of evidence of police spying on people exercising their
constitutional rights. We hear a lot about constitutional rights today. Freedom of
speech, freedom of assembly, and the police were harassing. Many people lost
jobs because they would go to your boss and say, “Did you know that your
employee did this or that?” It was a big, big thing; don’t ask me to recite it. But it
existed and I did that.

14

�JJ:

But I heard they sent letters to different people and --

LT:

Pardon?

JJ:

To spouses, they spent, they send letters or...?

LT:

There were a lot of -- I don’t remember exact circumstances.

JJ:

So, they weren’t just collecting information, they were --

LT:

No, they were collecting information, but they also caused problems for people.
It was an intimidation. [00:27:00] I mean, telling your boss that your employee is
a, I don’t want to call names. A communist or who the heck knows? That can
get you fired so it was harmful. Many people suffered direct injury from it. But
the most of the class were any people who were intimidated from participating by
presence and knowledge that the Red Squad was afoot spying on you even
though we didn’t know exactly who it might be that was the spy. And not to build
it up to sound like international spies but they, some of them were the kind of
people who were firmly against what we were doing, the kind of causes we were
involved in whether it was peace, civil rights, anti-war, whatever. And some of
them might’ve been people who did it in exchange for cops dropping a charge
they might’ve had. Somebody gets caught doing something they shouldn’t
[00:28:00] and they said, “Are you willing to do this?” And they say, “Sure, I’ll do
that. Just don’t arrest me for whatever I did wrong.” They came to it in a lot of
ways so...

JJ:

And was this brought up like in court like some of the --

LT:

Well, I actually never went to court. It was only the lawyers who went to court.
The --

15

�JJ:

No, but I mean this case, this information that the Red Squad gathered, was it
used against individuals? Or I mean --

LT:

For it to be in their files, it meant that the whole police department could look up
somebody and know what they were about. And whether they wanted to harass
people individually like going to their bosses or spouses or whatever, or whether
they wanted to sabotage the work of organizations. Sometimes, there’d be agent
provocateurs. They weren’t just reporting; They were suggesting things that
might be illegal [00:29:00] to try to get people to do things they shouldn’t so they
could be arrested. There was a whole array of dirty tricks that they did. And I
only mention it because from being a victim myself although not harmed as much
as other people were to being a person who could sit there and watch these
spies kind of be called to justice, they were outed. Suddenly, the whole
movement knew who these people were. Just to be at that desk before the
conference room as they walked in and looked at me and I looked at them as if to
say, “Now I know what you, who you really are.” So...

JJ:

What about did you hear anything about Reverend Chris Johnson?

LT:

No, no.

JJ:

No?

LT:

I know I had met him when the Young Lords were in the church but I knew
nothing about what went on there.

JJ:

I say that because it [00:30:00] happened just about a month and a half before
Fred Hampton’s death.

LT:

Really? Oh, it had happened before?

16

�JJ:

Yes.

LT:

I remember that it’d happened but I knew nothing about the details.

JJ:

That’s September 29th.

LT:

Did they ever find who did it?

JJ:

No but actually, it’s still a cold case.

LT:

Still a cold --

JJ:

They haven’t found it. (inaudible).

LT:

No.

JJ:

I think they want to find out but --

LT:

Yeah. Were they trying to blame the Young Lords?

JJ:

No, we were, the Young Lords weren’t blaming us.

LT:

Uh.

JJ:

I mean, they were at least insinuated. Yeah.

LT:

Yeah. I mean, through the years, you might’ve remembered the Lincoln Park,
what was it? Remember Dick Vision?

JJ:

Sure.

LT:

Yeah. I remember his, because that was, that struggle was against urban
renewal within the community. And I was friends with Dick. In fact, I went up to
Cana-- when my daughter was born, Maya -- we took a trip up to British
Columbia [00:31:00] to visit him and his wife and his little daughter Revie for
revolution. Revolutionary, Revolutionary Hope. Turns out her name was really
Hope but that’s what they called her, Revie. And we stayed up there -- talk about
cold. I’m never going back in February to British Columbia but it was beautiful.

17

�Yeah, he was a good guy. And then he went to China to teach English in China.
And the last I heard, he married a Chinese woman. I think he’s still there. Yeah.
JJ:

And I had a recently -- it’s another issue.

LT:

Have we covered everything?

JJ:

I, what else? What do you think?

F:

I think it’s pretty complete.

JJ:

I forget. Is it pretty complete? I don’t know. How about the People’s Law Office?
Did you, what did you recall of that? (laughs)

LT:

Well, I work with the People’s Office, Law Office on the Hampton suit. I mean, I
did the, I typed the complaint [00:32:00] for it at the, and it was, as I said, the
NAACP who paid for that. Yes, I was close. I mean, Flint and Jeff and Jeff wrote
a wonderful book, The Assassination of Fred Hampton, which I have an
autographed copy of. And I still sometimes check Chicago papers and Flint’s still
involved in fighting for justice on all kinds of fronts. And now, a big thing is The
Innocence Projects all over the country. When I worked at the BGA, the guy who
started it at Northwestern, David Protess, I worked in the same office with him.
Then he went on to start the Innocence Project at Northwestern and now they’re
everywhere. There’s even an Innocence Project in Las Vegas. So, I think that’s
a great thing, trying to fight for freedom of people wrongly incarcerated.

JJ:

So, what do you think were the main, the most important aspect [00:33:00] of that
era? (inaudible) --

LT:

Of the era? I think it was always, there had to be the fight against racism.
Because no matter where you turned, that was very central to a struggle. Yeah.

18

�I remember later, I worked with an organization that had a newspaper called
Frontline on the Frontline Against War and Racism. That those were the twin
anchors of the progressive movement and they really were. When you talk about
U.S. military intervention in Central America, that’s the war aspect and as well as
racism. The idea that the United States government could dictate to other
countries how they could, how they should run their, govern their countries and
things like that. Mm-hmm.
JJ:

Now, you went in the church several times or...?

LT:

Oh yeah, I’ve been in the church.

JJ:

What was it like? Can you describe the...?

LT:

Well --

JJ:

[00:34:00] What was it like to you?

LT:

Pardon?

JJ:

What was it like to you?

LT:

It was like a church. (laughter) I don’t know. I remember I was there when the,
you had the clinic in the church. I remember visiting the clinic, I remember you
had a Breakfast for Children program. Yeah, it was, that’s the parts that I
remember. But mostly I remember that it was just this, that in the community, the
activists in the community, because we had -- at the People’s Information Center,
we had a breakfast program. At the Church on Diversey, there was the Fritzi
Engelstein free people’s health clinic and the mural is still there on that church. It
just made the whole larger community so much more, the, these progressive
aspects so much more visible. Whether you were on Armitage of Diversey or

19

�Halsted or whatever, you got the impression that there were [00:35:00]
progressive people doing good stuff in this community so...
JJ:

A base like something.

LT:

Yeah, it was a base. Of course, you know what urban renewal did to that. When
I drive down Halsted and see the fancy, expensive housing that took, that was
build on People’s Park or whatever, it almost makes it, makes you wonder did all
that other stuff really happen? You see it so transformed. But it was a special
era and I don’t see, I haven’t seen anything like it since then. I think it was very
unique; it was. People had a sense of power, that they could do stuff. And I don’t
see it that way now. There’s so much separateness between the environmental
movement or the anti-war movement or the anti-nuke movement or whatever.
Some [00:36:00] activists circulate among all of them but they, there’s no coming
together with the kind of coalition that worked in Lincoln Park and around
Chicago then.

JJ:

And what in terms of the Women’s Movement, how did that fit in?

LT:

I was probably less active in the Women’s Movement than I was in any of the
other stuff. And it’s ironic because a new movie’s coming out that would -- did
you ever know my friend Ethan Young?

JJ:

No, I haven’t heard the name, yeah.

LT:

Yeah? He’s a writer, he’s in New York, he lives in Brooklyn, and his wife, Mary
Dore, has just collaborated with another filmmaker to make this wonderful movie
about the Women’s Movement in the ’70s. Which was really, I mean, the
Women’s Movement didn’t just start then. It’s been going on since before

20

�suffragettes. But it's really great because there are a lot of Chicago faces in it.
I’ve seen the trailer for it. It’s called She’s Beautiful When She’s Angry. And
that’s [00:37:00] the name of the film. It should be out within a month. But I
wasn’t as active in that as I was in whether it was Cuba or breakfast program or
all the other stuff that was going on in the community?
JJ:

Was there any work being done at all?

LT:

Pardon?

JJ:

Right? You said there was a woman’s group.

LT:

Oh, there was. Oh yes, I just wasn’t as active in it --

JJ:

Oh, okay.

LT:

-- myself personally. Yeah. Oh yes, they were very much, yeah. If you see, if
you kind of keep a tabs on it and Google the movie when it comes out, you watch
it online and you’ll see, “Oh, there’s so-and-so.” You’ll know faces. It’s a good
thing.

JJ:

We’ll kind of taper it down but I mean, any final points?

LT:

Not really. I just think that there’s always something to be done. Maybe it’s kind
of like an electoral campaign. Not everybody can walk, knock doors. [00:38:00]
Not everybody can cold call people in a phone bank. But people can write
Letters to the Editor, people can make comments online articles, people can
individually find a demonstration to go to or a forum to attend or a donation to
make. There’s always something people can do to strengthen that movement.
And they should do it.

JJ:

All right. Thank you.

21

�LT:

You’re welcome.
END OF AUDIO FILE

22

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&#13;
The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. </text>
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                    <text>Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project
Gerd Lindemann Disk 1
(1:30:14)
Background Information (00:06)
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Born December 10th 1923 in Rodach, Germany. (00:07)
He attended school in Rodach until 1932, at this time his father got a new job and the family
moved to Coburg Germany(00:30)
After this 4th year of public school he was encouraged by his father to take his high school
equivalency exam which was allowed in Germany at this time. (1:00)
His father worked for the German equivalent of the IRS at this time (1932)(1:07)
He is the oldest of 5 boys. (1:25)
His father was very strict (perhaps due to his father’s military experience.) (1:36)
He had family who served in World War I for Germany. (2:04)
His father’s stepbrother served as the Captain of the Battleship Bismarck. (2:53)
From high school he went to practical school. He desired to be a mechanical engineer; he was
accepted to an engineering school near the state of Thuringia, Germany. (3:20)
He was given an order to serve for 2 years in a practical school (4:18)
During his 2 years in practical school he worked on basics such as floor machine molding and
machining to the drafting room. Knowledge of these things was tested when he returned to the
engineering college. (4:50)
After his exam he was offered 2 semesters of “mail courses” where he was sent the books and
papers rather than attending a class. (5:54)
While studying his classes were interrupted after being visited by some SS officers looking for
volunteers for the German military. (approx 1938) (6:27)
Several men volunteered for the army and the navy but none volunteered for the SS. (6:50)
The SS officer was very upset. In response all the men in the engineering school were drafted
into the infantry. (Approx 1940)(7:00)
Three weeks later the men received there marching orders in spite many of the men being a
year too young. (17 years of age.) (7:28)

Basic training in NCO school (approx 1939) (7:40)
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He had to report to the military Barracks in Nuremberg Germany where he was given a medical
examination. (7:52)
An officer at Nuremberg heard of how the men from the engineering college were drafted into
the infantry and said that due to their background they should be officers. (8:22)
He was then sent to NCO school (8:44)
His father said that he and his brothers could fight the order after finding out Gerd was drafted,
but Gerd discouraged him from doing so as it could put members of his family in danger. This
was due largely to fear of the SS. (9:04)
In Germany the SS was feared greatly. (9:27)

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An SS private had more power than an officer in the army, air force, or any other military
branch. (9:40)
When hearing he would be going to NCO school he was originally relieved but then he found out
it was in the state of Prussia. People from this area did not like people from Rodach, the town in
which he was born. (10:19)
In NCO school he was required to scrub tiles and grout grove which officers had purposely
dumped sand in. (11:12)
NCO school was much like American Basic training. (11:53)
On a typical day he woke up at 6:00 AM and he slept with 4 men in one room with one study
desk. (12:17)
One man was required to go get the rations and coffee for the 4 others in the room. (12:48)
At 7:00 AM he was out on the parade ground. (13:15)
On the parade ground they were separated into lines and made to do pushups and other
physical activity. (13:23)
When receiving their uniforms the men appeared comical because their parts never fit properly
so they needed to be exchanged. (14:09)
In NCO school Rifles were issued and how to march was taught. (15:10)
A book issued to teach military doctrine, was often read and study during the evening. (15:25)
The entire outfit and school was composed of 1 battalion consisting of 4 companies of 120.
(16:21)
At the end of NCO school the men paraded with their rifles in a ceremony to signify its
completion. (16:43)
Many men were thankful to finish NCO school with their lives because during the course 4 men
hanged themselves due to the rigor of the training. (17:20)
During NCO school there was regular class, each course lasting about 1.5 hours every day.
(17:58)
The men were required to walk everywhere during basic training. (18:27)
The men were also asked to attempt to climb birch trees. (20:01)
After completing NCO school the men were given a choice. They could go on to be a part of the
regular army or infantry, or they could be specified as an officer based on their performance.
(20:28)
He was recommended to go into officer training. (20:50)
He was somewhat pleased with this order because he would be taken out of the basic infantry
conditions. (21:25)

Officer training (approx 1939-1940) (22:10)
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He was made to walk to officer school in Potsdam. (22:40)
The officer’s school was composed of sturdy permanent stone buildings. (Built to withstand
artillery.) (22:50)
When he arrived he was immediately placed into groups and lead to his quarters. 2 men were
placed in a room. (23:18)
The school was similar in appearance to a college. (23:45)
Basic training he thought was tactics held over from World War I however in officer’s school
there were more modern strategies implored. (24:25)

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In the middle of each floor of the barracks there was a bugler used to wake up the men. (25:11)
The food was not very good. (26:30)
A sense of camaraderie was held over from basic training. This was believed to be critical for
survival n the battle field. (26:50)
He had his pilot’s license at aged 16 in 1939. Because of this he was asked to be crossed trained.
He turned it down however because he did not want to be protected by his father. Instead he
selected tanks because he admired the machinery. (27:25)

School of tanks (Approx 1940-1941) (28:55)
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This school was at the same place as the officer school. (29:20)
Depending on performance in class and grade on the final evaluation a man might be placed in
charge of a single tank or a battalion of tanks. (29:30)
Just because a man was in officer school did not necessarily mean he would be placed in an
officer position. Some men could be placed in maintenance. (30:09)
After finding out about the search for soldiers for the Afrika Korps. He wanted to go in order to
avoid serving under a particular general. (32:07)
Approx. 1 week after hearing about the call for Afrika Korps he was transferred to Ansbach
Germany because it was his county district for military draftees. (35:29)
When arriving at Ansbach the office there did not know what to do with him. (36:25)
2 days after carving in Ansbach he received transfer papers to Kaiserslautern.
During this time he was given the promotion to lieutenant. (37:04)

Assignment in Kaiserslautern (41:28)
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After checking in at Kaiserslautern, he was the first officer there. Because of this he was
assigned to put a company together from volunteers in the area.
He had no assistance at this time in this task. He was required to examine the backgrounds of all
the men who volunteered. (42:45)
At this time new Mark III tanks were assigned and African uniforms were given. (44:00)
There was no training given for desert warfare however this region did have sandy soil and there
was artillery for training. (44:35)
Handbooks were given with some information on desert warfare. (45:03)
He and other men had very little of an idea as to who their enemy would be. They assumed that
much of the enemy would be colonial and native peoples with the British serving as officers.
(45:49)
The people he would be fighting were particularly feared for their knife work. (46:56)
Erwin Rommel had had to learn armored tactics, and was involved in the fighting in Poland and
France. (47:42)
The first troops in Africa were not he Afrika Korps but rather the Italian army in Africa. Rommel
did not want to place German soldiers in the Italian army because their military practice was far
too different. (48:27)

Arrival in Africa (1941) (49:35)

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After the company was assembled and 4 weeks of training with equipment, the men were order
to load the tanks on to the flatbeds (3 tanks per flatbed) and took the train to Naples Italy.
(49:36)
He was given papers to read to the men that instructed what to expect in Africa. (53:50)
The train trip took 2 days. (54:24)
He was given papers to give to Rommel in Africa. At this time he was unaware that he would be
part of Rommel’s staff. (55:14)
The men and the tanks were loaded onto ships. (The tanks were kept on deck. ) And he sailed to
Tripoli in North Africa. Only the driver and one man were left with the tanks on the ship, the
others were flown over in JU 52s. It took 2.5 hours. (55:38)
After landing, MPs instructed the men were to go. The men were to be ready when the tanks
arrived. (57:29)
The MPs stated that the tanks should be off the boat fast and then hid under things such as
palm trees. This was to prevent sightings from recon planes or attacks from bombers. (58:10)
When everything arrived, the men were given food, and then the MPs directed the Squad to the
headquarters in El Agheila. (59:16)
The environment had palm trees and cactus. (Desertlike.) (1:00:03)
The men were assigned not to take their shirts off because it’s a court martial offence. The sun
burn that resulted was considered self destruction. (1:00:40)
No men had heat stroke because every 2 hours the men stopped to open the hatches on the
tanks and cool them. (1:01:25)
Covers were used to protect the gun as well as the optics of the tanks from sand. (1:02:30)
When driving in sand there was a fear that the sand getting into the machine parts would cause
break downs. (1:03:27)
If a tank breaks down the entire group stops to assist the broken tank or to check their own.
(1:04:26)
When driving the tank in the desert it was compare to driving on water due to the wave like
motions. (1:05:26)
The men were given caps as well as goggles. (1:06:51)
Because the tanks were intended to be 25 feet apart, the men were routinely asked if they were
keeping their distance or if they could see the man in front of them if the conditions were bad.
(1:07:25)
The men stopped for the night during the trip and set up tents. (1:09:18)
At night the men had over coats and a belt. These where used to protect from the sand.
(1:09:54)
The men only had 2 jerry cans of water (a jerry can is a gas tank but painted a different color to
distinguish it as water.) (1:10:17)
The men often only ate at night because of the sand and flies during the day. (1:11:00)
The men were concerned that they might get injured from being attacked by flies. (1:12:05)

Arrival at headquarters (1:13:07)
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The tanks were taken 500 yards away from the headquarters. (1:13:15)
He was guided to the tent (which served as HQ)(1:14:35)
He gave the papers to Rommel’s assistant, Colonel Bayerlein. He was impressed with meeting
Rommel but he did not know how to react. (1:15:23)

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The men were offered food at the HQ from their kitchen rather than the men eating their
rations. (1:16:55)
When Rommel received the papers he read the cover letter and found that the tanks were given
letters but not numbers because they did not know what area they would be sent. Rommel was
impressed by how well Lindemann had organized his company and stated that he wanted him to
stay at the HQ because he had very few officers. (1:19:37)
In spite being too low a rank to hold the position of commander of his company, he was made
an Appointed Commander. This was a great honor. (1:21:40)
After being in Africa for 2 months, the men earned the Afrika Korps stripe. (1:22:57)
From here he was sent to the front lines and on an “orientation trip” he was given 4 coordinates
and told to travel to them. However he was told if assistance was needed platoons would be
taken out of the company to be sent to areas in need. (1:26:04)
He was told to put everything on a map or else it would be easy for him and his men to get lost,
especially at night. (1:27:27)

Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project
Gerd Linderman Disk 2
(1:21:23)
Note* At this time the second tape begins and the time Code restarts. Information that was included in
the first tape will not be rerecorded in the outline.
First engagement (1942) (3:05)
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The British at El Alamein had bunkers and mine fields prepared. (3:20)
He was shown films from observation planes as well as was given information from Arabs. (4:25)
The Arabs often contacted the Germans (in spite there being men and mine fields) to sell food.
The men were warned not to buy any meat from the Arabs. (5:01)
He traded British tents and Clothing for goods with civilians. (5:52)
He was pitted against the 8th British army. However at this time, much of the original soldiers
were gone. Now the army was primarily colonials, including South Africans and Indians [also
New Zealand, Australians—the armored formations were nearly all British]. (6:26)
The battles were fierce because the British soldiers were told about what would happen if they
were taken prisoner. However in Africa, the Germens treated their prisoners kindly. (7:17)
He had 12 tanks but by the time he reached El Alamein he only had 8 tanks. The tanks were not
destroyed but rather they were mad un-operational due to sand and the environmental
conditions. (8:00)
The men were usually given information the day before via radio. (9:16)
The way his tanks were set up was 5 on the left, 5 on the right and 1 communication tank in the
middle who maintained communication with the infantry as well as with other tanks. (10:00)
There was a shortage of ammunition. Often British artillery was turned around so that the
Germans could use their ammunition. (11:11)
When the hatches close and the battle began a tank man worried little about what going on
outside the tank. (11:50)

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A tank battle was much like a Battle between destroyers at sea. Much of the time tanks spent
their efforts trying to evade enemy tanks. (12:57)
In this battle he failed to get very far because there was too much artillery on the opposing side.
This cased great clouds of dust. (14:25)
The tank vibrated and was noisy when exposed to artillery or grenades that exploded closely to
the tank. (14:58)
The tanks rarely fired because they only had 80 shells. However, they were advancing forward.
(15:55)
They got through the basic defense but due to poor visibility were then ordered to reverse.
(16:14)
There was a conference of the tank commanders after the battle to conclude what went wrong.
The battle had few casualties in Gerd’s the infantry and none in his tank crew. (17:29)
Rommel made the decision to fly air aircraft over the battle and dive bomb the artillery in an
attempt to destroy them. They were unsuccessful. (17:58)
It was concluded that they needed a larger attack force. (19:00)
In the mean time the commanders studied the map of the battle field. (19:47)
At this time a lot of men had Malaria. No man had nets or anything to protect against
mosquitoes. (20:48)
The 164th division was sent in from Greece in mid 1942. This was a poor decision because they
were a guard divisions and they were very old. They were inclined to get sick very quickly.
(22:05)
The tanks were placed behind dunes in defensive positions. (23:35)
The British broke through south of his position at the Italian position. (24:19)
The British controlled a critical roadway with dive bombing witch crippled the tank’s movement.
(25:10)
After the British broke through he was forced to retreat. (24:54)
He now was tasked with covering other units that were retreating before them. (27:48)

Experiences with Desert Combat (28:35)
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He moved 20-30 miles a day. They would stop whenever they encountered any enemy forces.
(28:38)
By October of 1942 he had not engaged in any tank to tank combat. (29:42)
On the retreat from Alamein, the German 88mm antitank guns were cable of firing farther than
British tanks, so the British were afraid to close with them. (30:10)
At night, they would send recon men out and tail defense. The tail defense was a basic unit with
anti aircraft and tank guns with armor and heavy machine guns. (31:18)
The air craft he saw during service were mostly fighters and light bombers. (32:25)
His company did not experience any attacks from fighters. (32:50)
By November of 1942 the tanks are still on the move. (33:46)

December of 1942 (34:00)

�
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In December of 1942 B-17s are brought in to carpet bomb the area. This was due largely to the
fact that dried up river beds could be used to hid trucks or tanks during the day and hid them
from troops. (34:11)
These bombings used a lot of ammunition but where over all ineffective. (35:36)
After the bombing the men fell back to defense areas in Mersa Matruh. Here there was a small
harbor where the men could get some supplies. However much of it was sunk before the
Germans received it. (36:40)
Minor battles were encountered all along in a cat and mouse sort of combat. (38:12)
A line finally was established from Gabes to the Blue Mountains [Tunisia] in December of 1943.
(38:38)
Through he could only hear sounds while in the tank, he was given the impressions that the
British had a lot of things in Africa the Germans didn’t have. (40:09)
He was brought to headquarters in Gabes. Here the men discussed what the situation was like
and determined at what location they should take a stand. (41:02)
He did not feel he could report this information accurately at HQ because he did not know if he
would be able to get critical supplies such as ammunition and food. (42:00)
It was decided to move forced farther back. (43:08)
There was not a sense that if he and his men took a stand they could come out victorious. This
was due mainly to the lack of supplies particularly in gasoline and oil. (43:43)
The British feared that if the Germans reached the Suez Cannel then the Germans would halt all
ship traffic. (44:15)
The men were given a day to move to their new position. At this time some Italian troops have
prepared defensive measures. (44:59)
In December of 1942 his company received their first Tiger tanks through Tripoli from Italy.
(46:16)
The men were trained on how to operate the Tiger tanks by civilians from the factory. (47:00)
There was a big difference between fighting American and British troops. At night German
soldiers could sneak up on Americans or listen to them. This was due primarily because they
were uninformed on desert conditions and new to desert combat. (48:15)
At the time of the American arrival he was and his company was in rest waiting to be drawn to
the Western from. (49:20)

Engagement in the Western Front (49:35)
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In January of 1943 his company was instructed to move to the western front. (49:45)
The Americans were extremely well supplied but inexperienced. (49:54)
The Tiger tank was demoralizing because even artillery shells were ineffective against it. (51:00)
At Kasserine in February 1943 the Americans became boxed into an area. (51:45)
The German tanks could receive the American tank radio signal. Most of the men being able to
speak English, they all listened in. (53:18)
The Americans called out particular landmarks making the estimation of the American
movements very accurate. (54:18)
In May of 1943 he was assigned to close off the entrance to the Cap Bon Peninsula to hold off
the Allies long enough to evacuate the air forces. He fought the British there first. (55:10)

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In order to avoid Tiger tanks from being captured he destroyed their barrels and engines of the
machines. (57:10)
The British began shelling the area after spotting the tank explosions. Gred was then struck with
a piece of shrapnel in the leg. (58:00)
The British then moved in and Gerd was captured on May 11th 1943 at 4:30 PM. (58:30)

Capture by the British. (58:35)
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He was interrogated but not to a great existent and he was treated fairly well. (59:10)
He was then sent to Constantine were there was field hospital. (59:50)
He was told at Constantine that his wound is so serious that he needs to go to a bigger hospital.
(1:01:04)
Most of the casualties in Constantine were British. (1:01:15)
Gerd’s parents were informed that he was dead due to confusion over a tank that exploded.
(1:01:35)
He was then sent to Casablanca. Here he was given food water and medical care. (1:02:43)
The box car he and other men were carried upon took fire by machine gun during the trek to
Casablanca. As a result, when he arrived at the city hundreds of men were already dead.
(1:04:00)
When handed over to Americans at Casablanca he was placed in a field hospital. Here, Germen
medics who had been captured aided him. 10 days after arriving he was sent on a transport to
the U.S. (1:05:00)
He was loaded onto the Puerto Rico (a medical transport ship). The trek took 10 days. Many
wounded Americans were in aboard the ship as well. (1:05:57)
He arrived in New York and was placed in Halloran Hospital (approx. late 1943). (1:07:00)

Movement within the U.S. (1:07:48)
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He was then transported to Topeka, Kansas, on a Hospital train. (1:07:54)
He was then sent to a hospital outside of Topeka. Here he got very little sleep because there
was a B17 Base near the Hospital doing bomb runs. (1:08:15)
Because he was treated well early on while in American custody, he was not too scared of what
might happen to him. (1:09:09)
Due to his officer status he was next transported to Camp Carson in Colorado (approx late
1943)(1:01:27)
He didn’t like it at this camp, so he asked if he could change camps. The only way to do so, he
was told, was to give up all of his officer privileges and become a G.I.(1:11:23)
He was transported to Camp Ellis in Illinois. Here he saw his destroyed tiger tanks and many of
the men from his company. (1:12:40)
The Americans there were eager to convince the Germans to show them how the tanks operate.
When none of the men were willing to give up the secret, Gerd was transferred to Fort Custer
Michigan. (1:13:20)
At Fort Custer he was placed in charge of repair shops. Here he repaired radios, telephones, ext.
(1:14:10)

�Life after imprisonment (1:15:35)
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After being released from Fort Custer he returned to college and received a degree in
engineering. (1:15:45)
Unable to find a job out of college he considered immigrating to another country such as
Venezuela. (1:16:00)
He wrote a family member who lived in Venezuela who said he should not go there due to poor
employment. (1:16:40)
He decided to immigrate to the U.S. He arrived in Chicago and then moved to Frankfort
Michigan. He then worked for a factory. (1:17:14)
After realizing the Plant he was working at in Frankfort was going under he resigned from his
position. (1:17:39)
He currently resides in Grand Rapids Michigan. (1:20:30)

�</text>
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                    <text>Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project
Paul Lindner
(56:40)
(00:20) Background Information
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Paul was born in Indiana in the early 1920s
His father worked in tool and die for Pullman Manufacturing Company
His family was a little low on money during the Depression but they came out OK in the
end
Paul enlisted in the Navy on his 17th birthday and reported for active duty on July 3, 1941
Paul had enlisted because he felt that the US would be involved in the war soon

(02:00) Training
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Paul reported in Chicago at Great Lakes Naval Station
They were living in hammocks during boot camp at Camp Barry in Chicago
They had spent much time marching and learning Naval terminology for about 7 weeks
Paul was then sent to Jacksonville Naval Air Station in Florida
It was on the water, but a very rustic area
He later signed up for classes to be a mechanic working on motor torpedo boats

(05:55) Mechanic Training
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Paul was sent to Boston and then to Rhode Island
He began working on PT boats and went to torpedo school
They worked on patrol making torpedo runs to Martha’s Vineyard and other islands
He described a PT boat as a “plywood coffin” with 3-12 cylinder Packard engines
It carried torpedoes, twin 50-calibur guns, smoke generators and depth charges
There was usually about 12 men working on the boat
They trained in Rhode Island for 6 weeks

(10:30) Training in New York
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Paul was sent to Brooklyn Navy yard to work in engineering
He was working in the BG Spark Plug Factory in New York
He was later sent to Ionia Ammunition Island working on boat repairs
The men were given cold weather gear and all loaded up on large boats to leave from
New York
They thought they were going to the North Atlantic, but went through the Panama Canal
to Taboga Island
They also stayed in Panama for a while working on boat generators

(15:25) Australia

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They headed into the Pacific and all the men were given Japanese hunting licenses
They also went through the initiation process of crossing the equator
They landed in Brisbane, Australia and had two weeks on liberty
Paul had an opportunity to go on a ride in a submarine and did not enjoy his experience
He also took a boat north and saw the Great Barrier Reef
Paul traveled along much of the coast of Australia, at which time was pretty old
fashioned compared to towns on the coast in America
He visited Horne Island and went through the Torres Straits
Most of the Americans got along well with the Australian civilians, but the Australian
servicemen did not like them because they thought they were overpaid and attracting all
the Australian women

(21:45) New Guinea
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They left Australia and headed to Milne Bay, which is on the southeast end of New
Guinea
The men set up base while most of the Japanese were starting to push North
The base was surrounded by jungle and many wild pigs
Paul began working on a boat patrolling along the eastern coast of New Guinea
They were working with Australian coast watchers at night
Occasionally they caught Japanese trucks trying to make their way up the coast
Whenever Japanese shot at them at night, they often missed because they always aimed
too high

(26:10) Buna
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They left Milne Bay and tied up to a Japanese barge to refuel; the boats usually used
about 2,000 gallons of fuel a day
They spent much of the day on land in the jungle
After spending time in Buna they traveled to Kiriwina Island where there was a US
airbase and hospital
Paul continued to work on patrol boats at night and also helped transport men to different
islands
There was not much Japanese resistance while they were patrolling
Usually their only contact was because a Japanese boat would run into them because it
could not see them

(31:10) England
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Paul had some time to go home on leave where he visited his family
His father was busy working long hours in a factory that was building tanks and 20 mm
mortars
Paul then took a train to New York and boarded an Army transport ship headed for
Liverpool
In England they went on a few patrols off the coast, looking for German E boats
They left Liverpool and went the Plymouth Bay where there was much war damage

�(36:30) France
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From England Paul traveled to Cherbourg, France where the Germans had recently
surrendered
They found an old Germans barracks that looked like it had been very quickly vacated
The French told them that they were much happier living under the Germans than the
Americans
Once the fighting was over in Paris the men went back to England
Paul had leave to go back to the US during Christmas and then was told that he would be
heading back to the Pacific
He was sent to Shoemaker, CA, but discharged shortly later before even leaving for the
Pacific in 1945

(43:00) Discharged
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After being discharged Paul moved to Michigan
His father had moved there from Indiana after buying about 500 acres on a lake
Paul began taking classes at Michigan State University and received his degree in
electronics
He also met his wife while attending college
After the Navy Paul continued spending time sailing, fishing and riding in speed boats
He had a wonderful time in the Navy and made many great friends

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�PAU L THOMAS LINDNER
U.S.NAVY wwn
JULY 3,1941-- TO --- OCTOBER 6,1941

FOUR YEARS THREE MONTHS AND FOUR DAYS INCLUDING ALL OF WWII
MILITARY SERVICE AS I REMEMBER IT=
ELEVEN DAYS AFTER MY SEVENTEENTH BIRTHDAY, I WAS SWORN IN TO
THE U.S.NAVY AT THE NAVAL RECEIVING STATION IN CHICAGO, ILLINOIS
ON JULY 3, 194 1. NOW AN APPRENTICE SEAMAN AT $21.00 PER MONTH A
BUS RIDE TO GRE AT LAKES NAVAL TRAINING STATION AT GRE AT LAKES ,
ILLINOIS.
OUR BOOT CAMP HOME TO BE WAS A WWI BARRACKS LOCATED IN CAMP '
BERRY. HERE WE ENTERED GLISTENING WOODEN FLOORS [DECKS] AND
OPEN AREA WITH PIPES WHICH WE LEARNED WERE TO LASH OUR
HAMMOCKS TO FOR BEDS . MEETING OUR LEADER, CHIEF YUHASE AND
NOW RECEIVE DOG TAGS, HAIR CUT S [HAD TO PAY FOR] HAMMOCKS
MATRES S, PILLOW, SEA BAG, DITTY BAG, DRE SS BLUE UNIFO RM, UNDRE SS
BLUES , WHITE UNIFORM S, UNDERWEAR, SOCKS AND SO FORTH FOR OUR
,.. ......	 SOLE POSSESSIONS.
OUR FIRST NIGHT IN A HAMMOCK AND JULY FOURTH MORNING WE SORTA
MARCHED TO A MES S HALL ON THE MAIN SIDE. A METAL TRAY,
SPOONFULL OF BEANS AND TWO SPOONS OF CATSUP [NOW "RED LEAD"],
EGGS, SLAB OF ANCIENT TOAST AND COFFEE THAT COULD BE USED AS
PAINT REMOVER.
RETURNED TO THE BARRACKS AND NOW INTRODUCED TO THE "BLUE
JACKETS MANUAL" OUR NAVY BffiLE. INSTRUCTED ON ROLLING AND
TYING OUR CLOTHING TO KEEP IT IN THE SEA BAG UNWRINKLED, AND
HOW TO LAY OUT FOR INSPEC TION, OF WHICH WE SOON HAD MANY. NOW
LEARNING TO MARCH AS A UNIT AND ENTER INTO COMPETITION WITH
OTHER GROUPS.
SHOT S IN BOTH ARMS AND WE NOW DANCE WITH THE "JOHNSON BAR'.
THE GLISTENING DECKS REQUIRE STEEL WOOL OVER THE BAR AND A LOT
OF DANCING TO REMOVE THE WAX. THE STEEL WOOL REMOVED AND
NOW WAX AND POLISH. WE WERE INFORME D THAT THE EXERCISE EASED
THE PAIN OF THE SHOTS?

"

�H.

NOW MARCHING AS A UNIT, ABLE TO DO THE MANUAL OF ARMS WITH A
SPRINGFIELD 1903 AND PASSED THE RIFLE RANGE QUALIFICATIONS WE
NOW ARE READY TO MARCH TO THE MAIN SIDE PARADE GROUND AND
GRADUATION. A SEVEN DAY LEAVE SO HOME AND BACK IN CIVILIAN
CLOTHES FOR THE WEEK.
RETURN TO GREAT LAKES AND ANOTHER WWI BARRACKS ON THE MAIN
SIDE. NOW HAMMOCKS ARE HUNG MUCH HIGHER FOR WALKING
BENEATH. TESTS AND INFO ON AVAILABILITY OF SCHOOLS AND OR
SHIPS OR BASES . OPTED FOR AVIATION MACHINIST MATE SCHOOL AND
NOW A TRAIN TRIP SOUTH TO JACKSONVILLE NAVAL TRAINING STATION
IN JACKSONVILLE, FLORIDA.
THE NEW NAVY WITH WOODEN BARRACKS AND DOUBLE DECKER BUNKS .
NOW THE HAMMOCK IS BENEATH THE MATTRESS AND A BIT MORE
COMFORTABLE. AS THE WAKE UP LIGHTS GO ON AND LOCAL RADIO
STATION GOES ON THE AIR WITH "A STRING OF PEARLS" WE HEAR THE
SONG THAT WILL BEGIN OUR DAYS WHILE IN JAX, EACH WEEK COVERS A
DIFFERENT PHASE OF THE AIRCRAFT WITH HANDS ON EXPERIENCE.
WEEKL Y TEST MUST RECEIVE A PASSING GRADE TO RATE LillERTY.
INSTRUCTORS REGALE US WITH THEIR WAR STORIES OF OUTWITTING THE
FEDS WHEN RUNNING BOOTLEG LIQUOR DURING PROHillITION. A BIT
AMAZING HOW SO MANY OF THEM SURVIVED. AS THIS IS PRE WWII OUR
AIRCRAFT ARE A LOT OF BIPLANES WITH FABRIC COVERS . WE LEARN TO
SEW THE FABRIC ON WINGS ETC. THEN TO A HANGER WITH A WALL
WATERF ALL. NO METAL OF ANY TYPE TO BE CARRIED IN AS THE
AIRPLANE DOPE IS VERY EXPLOSIVE. IT IS STORED IN A BLOCK HOUSE
-eUT IN THE MIDDLE OF A FIELD . WE NOW UNDERSTAND WHY LOCATIONS
ARE MARKED TO PLACE FEET WHEN GETTING INTO THE COCKPITS .
RADIAL ENGINES, CARBURATORS, INSTRUMENTS, WING ADJUSTMENTS
AND SHOT GUN STARTERS AND ALL OTHER AIRCRAFT ITEMS.
LillERTY WAS A BUS RIDE INTO JAX AND AT THE WATERFRONT I MET AN
OLD FISHERMAN ABOUT TO GO FISHING, INVITE AND OUT ON THE RIVER.
THE LIVE BAIT WAS LARGER THAN THE FISH I HAD CAUGHT BACK HOME .
FISH WERE BITING AND I CAUGHT MY FIRST TEN POUNDS PLUS BASS­
WOW! ENJOYING A BREW AS I AM NOW A SEAMAN SECOND CLASS AND
$36.00 PER MONTH, I MET SOME PEOPLE FROM HOME . AN ARMY
SEARGEANT PASSING THRU JAX AND THE LADY BOOKKEEPER FOR THE
DOG TRACK. THE SARGE HAD BEEN A LIFE GUARD AT HOME TOWN POOL
AND THE LADY HAD ATTENDED SCHOOL WITH MY DAD. INVITED TO
MEET THE TRACK OWNER AND FAMILY PLUS THE PRE RACE OWNERS
BUFFET- LIVING IT UP

�THE JAPS HAVE BOMBED PEARL HARBOR AND WE ARE AT WAR. LOCAL
BASED PBYs ARE PATROLLING OUR ATLANTIC COAST AS GERMAN U­
BOATS ARE NOW ON THE PROWL AND SINK1NG US SHIPS . GRADUATION
AND CHECK OUT THE BULLETIN BOARD FOR POSSIBLE FUTURE
ASSIGNMENT. ANEW NAVAL UNIT 'MOTOR TORPEDO BOATS ' IS SEEKING
MECHANICS FOR PACKARD ENGINES. SOUNDS INTERESTING SO APPLIED
IN THE MORNING AND WAS ON A TRAIN TO BOSTON, MASS. THAT
AFTERNOON.
CHECKED IN TO FARGO STREET NAVAL STATION AND SOON ON A BUS TO
MEL VILLE, RHODE ISLAND AND QUONSET HUTS BEING BUILT AS THE
BASE PREPARES. HERE WE HAD ON HAND TRAINING COVERING ALL
FACETS OF PT BOATS . TORPEDOES, GUNS, RADIO, NAVIGATION AND THE
ENGINES . CRUISES OUT ONTO THE OCEAN WITH PRACTICE TORPEDO
RUNS ON MARTHAS VINEYARD. GUNNERY FIRING AT SOCK TOWED
BEHIND AIRPLANE AND SO FORTH.
MORNING RUN ON THE BASE CINDER ROADS I MET OUR FUTURE
PRESIDENT KENNEDY- VERY FRIENDLY. LATER I WAS IN THE SAME
SQUADRON 6 IN NEW YORK BUT I WAS AWAITING THE FORMING OF
SQUADRON 7. LIBERTY HERE OFFERED NUMEROUS DIRECTIONS TO
TOWNS- FALL RIVER, MASS. , RHODE ISLAND AND THE OCEAN SHORELINE.
GRADUATION AND NOW A FIREMAN 3rd CLASS [NO PAY RAISE] RECEIVING
OVER $50.00 PER MONTH DUE TO OVERALL PAY SCALE RAISE . HALF OF
MY PAY GOES HOME FOR DAD TO BUY WAR BONDS . NOW A FIREMAN 181
CLASS AND A PAY RAISE . GRADUATION AND DEPART MELVILLE.
BUS TO BOSTON AND SHORT STAY AT FARGO BARRACKS WITH LIBERY TO
ENJC&gt;Y THE SITES, BEANS AND BEER. TRAIN TO NY AND BUS TO
BROOKLYN NAVY YARD . CHECKED IN TO THE COMISSIONING DETAIL
LOCATED ON THE CONCRETE BARGE-"'WHEELING." NO BOATS AS YET SO
SHORT LEAVE HOME VIA TRAIN. RETURN AND BEGIN SHAKE DOWN OF
JUST RECEIVED BOATS .
LOCATED NEAR THE BATTLESHIP IOWA NOW BEING BUILT AND LEARNING
THE TRICKY RIVER CURRENTS UGH! NEW SKIPPERS NOW REALLY
EXERCISE MECHS AS NUMEROUS SHIFTS TO BRING BOAT TO DOCK. A
WAVE HITS AND LIFTS BOAT INTO PILING THUS WORK FOR CARPENTER
MATES TO PATCH. INSTALLING HEATERS ON BOATS THUS ASSUME OUR
NEXT BASE WILL BE COLD AREA. ISSUED A LOT OF HEAVY FOWL
WEATHER PLUS GEAR- WOOL UNDERWEAR AND SO FORTH.
THE CHIEF MASTER AT ARMS IN CHARGE OF THE WHEELING SAW MY
NAME AND ASKED IF MY DAD WAS A CARL. HE HAD SERVED UNDER MY
DAD IN WWI ABOARD THE USS LEVIATHON

�A MOTOR MACHINIST MATE SECOND CLASS AND A PAY RAISE PLUS BUSY
IN PREPARING FOR SQUADRON DEPARTURE. A WEEK IN DOWNTOWN NY
AT THE BG SPARK PLUG FACTORY TO LEARN FIELD REHAB FOR SPARK
PLUGS . TIME AT WALTER JONES ENGINE REPAIR OVER THE RIVER TO
FOLLOW UP ON HAVING AUXIALLIARY GENERATOR GEARS GROUND FOR
CLEARANCE. RUN A WIID..£ AND THE UNITS FROZE UP . DID NOT HAVE
TIME TO ALL DONE. JONES HAD TRAP DOORS AND DURING PROHIBITION
CHANGED ENGINES ETC. FOR BOOTLEGGERS SPEED BOATS.
A TRIP UPRIVER TO MARINE AMMUNITION DUMP AND PICKED UP AMMO
FOR THE BOATS 50 CALIBER AND 20 MILIMETERS PLUS SOME FOR SMALL
ARMS . TRIPS ABOUT NY FOR NEEDED TOOLS AND A TRIP TO FIFES
SHIPYARD FOR SOME WORK.
UNDER COMMAND OF LT COMMANMDER JOHN D . BUCKELEY [THE MEDAL
OF HONOR WINNER] OUR BOATS WERE LOADED ON TO WOOD CRADLES
THEN ONTO THE DECK OF A TANKER. SOUTH ALONG THE COAST TO THE
INLAND HARBOR AT WILLHELMSTEAD, CURACAO. LIBERTY HERE WAS A
BOAT RIDE TO TOWN AND AT NIGHT THE TOWN DIVIDED BY THE
WATERWAY, PULLED THE PONTOON TYPE BRIDGE THAT CONNECTED
SAME.
THE MILK AND ICE CREAM REQUIRED GETTING A TASTE FOR "GOATS
MILK." EVENING BEER ON THE VERANDA OF HOTEL VIEWING LOCAL
ACTIVITY WAS EXCELLENT PASTIME. CONTACTED A GENT THAT MY DAD
HAD MENTIONED HAVING ATTENDED PURDUE UNIVERSITY WITH. UPPER
JOB WITH DUTCH REFINERY AND VERY HOSPITABLE AT HIS CLUB .
NOW TO COLON, PANAMA AND OFF LOAD FOR TRIP THRU THE CANAL TO
'	 ~HE PACIFIC OCEAN AND THE ISLAND OF TOBAGO. DEEP CLEAR WATER
ON ISLAND THAT HAD BEEN HIGH CLASS ENTERTAINING PRE THE WAR.
TO THE NAVAL MACHINE SHOP ON THE CANAL AND MORE AUXIALLIARY
GENERATOR WORK. BACK TO THE ISLAND AND VIEWED MY FIRST
IGUANAS- NATIVES LIKED AND SAID THAT THEY TASTE LIKE CHICKEN?
SHAKE DOWN AND NOW WORKING AS A UNIT FOR PATROLS.
TO PANAMA, BACK IN CRADLES AND ONTO THE DECK OF TANKER. SOUTH
WITH GALA INITIATION CROSSING THE EQUATOR, SIGN LOG FOR OUR
SPONSOR- THE NEW YORK YACHT CLUB , ISSUED JAP HUNTING LICENSE
SIGNED BY OUR CAMMANDING OFFICER. WEST TO NOUMEA, NEW
CALEDONIA AND A SHORT ANCHORAGE THEN TO BRISBANE, AUSTRALIA
AND THE FARTHEST NORTH LOCATION OF A CRANE CAPABLE OF
REMOVING OUR BOATS FROM DECK OF THE TANKER.
TIED UP NEXT TO THE SUBMARINE TENDER THE USS FULTON. HAILED BY
A SAILOR ON THE FULTON AND INVITED ABOARD, WE HAD BEEN
CLASSMATES AT JAX AND HE OPTED FOR SUBS? AS A SUB WAS REPAIRED
AND SHAKE DOWN SHORT CRUISE INTO THE PACIFIC I WAS INVITED
ALONG. HAVING SUBMERGED AND RETURNED I DECIDED THAT SUBS
WERE NOT MY THING.

�se , . ....

LIBERTY IN BRISBANE WAS INTERESTING LEARNING THAT A BOTTLE OF
BEER IS AN IMPERIAL QUART. AUSTRALIAN SEREVICEMEN DISLIKED
YANKS AS WE RECEIVED HIGHER PAY AND THE AUSSIE LASSES
PREFERRED US SERVICEMEN. BOOMERANGS REALLY DO COME BACK.
PREPARING TO HEAD NORTH WE ARE CABLED TO THE US GUNBOAT
"TULSA." BETWEEN THE LAND AND THE GREAT BARRIER REEF WE NOW
HEADED NORTH. SET A SCHEDULE TO RUN ENGINE TO COOL REVERSE
GEARS AS THEY HEATED UP WITH PROP TURNING IN TOW .
A DANDY STORM AND ON TOP OF HIGH WAVES WE WERE LOOKING DOWN
ON THE GUNBOAT. CABLE SNAPPED, DROPPED OFF VIA QUICK RELEASE
AND STARTED ENGINES. CRUISED INTO THE GLADSTONE HARBOR TO
RIDE OUT THE STORM. LOCAL PUB RAPIDLY RAN OUT OF BEER. STORM
OVER WE ONCE AGAIN PROCEEDED NORTH IN TOW. SOME OF THE
ISLANDS OF THE REEF WERE INHABITED AND PEOPLE CAME OUT TO
WAVE. OUR TOWING SPEED WAS GOOD FOR FISHING AS WE TROLLED

SPOONS AND ENJOYED SOME FAIR CATCHES .

CAIRNS, AUSTRALIA AND AGAIN SET UP BASE. THIS TOWN REMINDED ME

OF AN OLD WESTERN MOVIE TOWN . BUSINESSES HAD A DROP WOOD

FRONT, INSTEAD OF WINDOW, AND WHEN OPEN THEY RAISED IT

COVERING THE WOOD SIDE WALK. NON COM CLUB WAS IN A HOUSE

BUILT ON STILTS AND A TRAP DOOR IN THE FLOOR PERMITTED REFUSE TO

BE SWEPT OUT.

SUGAR FARMERS WELCOMED OUR HUNTING KANGAROO AND THE

NATIVES APPRECIATED THE MEAT. AGAIN NORTH NOW TO THE TORRES

STRAITS AND THURSDAY ISLAND . THIS WAS HEADQUARTERES FORJAP

PEARL DIVING OPERATION. WE TOOK OVER HOTEL FOR BASE FORCE, SICK
BAY AND GALLEY PLUS MESS HALL. ALSO TOOK OVER A MARINE
WORKSHOP WITH A MARINE RAILWAY THAT WE UTILIZED TO PULL PT
BOATS UP FOR BOTTOM CLEANING ETC ..
AN ASSEMBLED SECTIONAL METAL BARGE WITH CHYRSLER MOTOR IN
ONE SECTION NOW FOR OUR USE. LARGE CUBIC BLOCKS OF CONCRETE
WERE CAST TO DROP IN STREAM FOR BOAT ANCHORAGES. WATER
FLOWED AT ABOUT EIGHT KNOTS AS IT WENT BETWEEN THE ISLANDS SO
TRICKY ANCHORAGES.
BOSUN AND I MADE THE FIRST TRIP OUT AND FOUND OURSELVES NOT
GOING FORWARD. CHECKED THE ENGINE AND :MISSING KEY CONNECTING
SHAFT TO ENGINE DRIVE. LUCKIL Y AN ALERT PT BOATER SAW OUR
PLIGHT AND THEY TOWED US TO THE DOCK FOR REPAIRS. NOW WE
SUCCEEDED TO PLACE THE ANCHORAGES OK.
PRINCE OF WALES ISLAND WAS UNINHABITED AND HAD ONCE BEEN A
:MINING PLACE FOR GOLD BUT TO COSTLY WHEN PRICE DROPPED. LEFT
HORSES THAT WENT WILD AND WE HUNTED WILD BOAR- [TUSKERS] THEN
GAVE MEAT TO NATIVES ON OUR ISLAND .

�AS THE JAPS WERE STILL COMING SOUTH IN NEW GUINEA WE NOW AIDED
THE AUSSIES AND LOADED AN ON WHEELS FIELD PIECE PLUS PLANKS
AND SOLDIERS ON THE BARGE . PROCEEDE TO NEARBY ISLAND AND
BEACHED THE FRONT OF BARGE. AUSSIE PUSHED PLANK OVERBOARD
AND IT IMMEDIATELY SANK. HEAVY TIMBER. FINALLY BUILT RAMP AND
OFF LOADED THE FIELD PIECE. THANKS .
ON PT BOAT PULLING UP TO DOCK I THREW A LINE TO CHUBBY GENT IN
CACKY AND HE HAD A RED HAT BAND . I ASSUMED HE WAS WITH THE RED
CROSS . HE PLACED THE LINE AND THEN AS I THANKED HIM HE
INTRODUCED HIMSELF AS GENERAL? AND WONDERED IF WE COULD
TRANSPORT HIM TO HORNE ISLAND, ACROSS THE WATER, AND THE
AUSSIE AIR BASE . OUR BOAT SKIPPER SAID GLAD TO .
NOW AGAIN NORTH AND A SHORT STOP IN PORT MORESBY, NEW GUINEA.
THE JAPS DID NOT MAKE IT TO HERE AND NOW WERE BEING PUSHED
BACK OVERE THE MOUNTAINS. I BELIEVE IT IS THE OWEN/ST ANLEY
RANGE . EAST TO PORT MORESBY AND KANA KOPE WAS BEING
CONSTRUCTED FOR OUR BASSE . TENTS ON STILTED FLOORS FOR BASE
PERSONAL AND QUONSET WORK SHOPS ETC. CHATTED WITH A CB ,
BUILDING QUONSETS, AND HE HAD WORKED FOR MY DAD BACK HOME .
THE RAINY SEASON WAS ALL AS BAD AS WE EVER HEARD AND AT TIMES
WORSE- MOLDY EVERYTHING.
NOW ON PATROL ON THE EAST COAST OF NEW GUINEA. NIGHTS WE
PATROLLED NORTH ALONG THE COAST TO INTERCEPT ANY BARGES ETC .
AS THEY TRIED TO RESUPPLE THERE TROOPS. IN THE EARL Y DAYS THE
BARGES FELT SAFE AND WERE NOT ARMED BUT AFTER LOSSES TO PT
BOATS THEY INSTALLED GUNS ON FUTURE BARGES. WITH MUFFLED
ENGINES WE SILENTLY CREPT ALONG THE COAST AND WHEN BARGES
WERE SPOTTED- MUFFLERS OPENED AND FULL SPEED AHEAD FOR
BROADSIDE OF OUR TWIN FIFTY CALIBERS AND TWENTY MILLIMETER
ORLECON. A COUPLE OF RUNS TOTALLY DISABLED AND USUALLY SANK
THE BARGES WITH NO SURVIVORS.
DAYS WERE SPENT REFUELLING AND TIED UP UNDER TREES IN TUFI
RIVER. HERE I MET AUSSUE COAST WATCHERS ON TOP OF TUFI HILLS .
THEY REPORTED JAP ACTIVITY AND WERE OF GREAT HELP TO THE WAR
EFFORT. ENJOYED FRESH PINEAPPLE AND BANANAS .HERE THANKS TO
THERE LOCAL SUPPL Y.
WATERFALL AT TUFI RIVER WAS NICE TO BACK UNDER FOR FRESH WATER
SHOWERS. WE SWAM HERE UNTIL ONE NIGHT HEARD NOISE IN THE RIVER
AND FOUND A CROCODILE SWIMMING ABOUT. END OF SWIMMING. NOW
THW JAPS HAVE BEEN ELIMINATED AT BUNA SO WE MOVE NORTH AGAIN.
FINALL Y A MOTHER SHIP JOINS US AT BUNA AND NO LONGER HAVE A
LONG TRIP SOUTH FOR SUPPLIES .

�BUNA WAS AN EXCELLENT LOCATION TO TIE UP BY A BEACHED lAP
LANDING BARGE AND DIVE UNDER THE PT TO REPLACE ZINCS ON THE
STRUTS . SALTWATER DISSOLVED THE ZINCS FAIRLY FAST. ALSO GOOD
PLACE TO REPLACE BANGED UP SCREWS AND SO FORTH. WITH NO DIVING
GEAR THE SALT WATER WAS A BIT HARD ON THE EYES AFTER FREQUENT
DIVES. THE MORNING AFTER A NIGHT PATROL REQUIRED ROLLING FIFTY
FIVE GALLON BARRELS OF HIGH OCTANE GAS, UPRIGHTING THE BARRELS
AND HAND PUMPING THRU A SHAMMY. A NIGHT PATROL USUALLY
REQUIRED TWO THOUSAND GALLONS OF GAS MORE OR LESS .
THE BUNA BARGE WAS PICTURED ON THE COVER OF A LIFE MAGAZINE.
NOW NORTH TO MOROBE RIVER AND PATROLS ENCOUNTERING ARMED
BARGES . THE lAPS WERE DESPERATE TO RESUPPLY THEIR TROOPS ON
NEW GUINEA AND A LARGE GROUP SET OFF FROM NEW BRITAIN TO BE
SUNK BY AIRCRAFT AND US NAVY. ORDERS WERE TO TAKE NO
PRISONERS AND ALLOW NO lAPS TO MAKE IT TO SHORE .
FROM MOROBE WE PATROLLED NORTH TO THE LAE/SALAMOA AREA AS
THE lAPS WERE BEING PUSHED FURTHER NORTH. ONE NIGHT IN CAPE
GLOUCESTER ON THE WEST SIDE OF NEW BRITAIN I GLANCED UP THRU
THE ENGINE ROOM HATCH AND THE AMERICAN FLAG WAS BRIGHTLY LIT
UP, EMERGENCY FULL SPEED AND THE SHOOTING BEGAN. A SHELL, FROM
lAP DESTROYER, HIT BEHIND OUR SISTER PT BOAT AND SPRAYED
SHRAPNEL WOUNDING SOME AND WE SHOT OUT THE lAP SEARCH LIGHT
THEN LAID A SMOKE SCREEN BEHIND WOUNDED PT AND LED THE WAY
HOME. NO WIN SITUATION.
FROM MOROBE A GROUP OF PTs WAS TRANSFERRED TO KIRIWIANA
ISi;AND TO NOW PATROL NORTH TO THE RABUAL AREA. RABUAL, NEW
BRIT AIN WAS A LARGE lAP STRONGHOLD AND SUPPLIED THE NEW
GUINEA ARMY. WE TRANSPORTED A MARINE, AUSSIE AND NATIVE TO
NEW BRITAIN SHORE FOR SPYING AND HAD A SET PICK UP ROUTINE IN
HOPE THEY RETURNED .
CHRISTMAS DAY 1943 ON A GAS BARGE FUELING A PT BOAT FIRE BROKE
OUT AND THREE OF US SWAM ASHORE . AN ARMY AMBULANCE RIDE TO A
ARMY FIELD HOSPITAL IN THE CENTER OF THE ISLAND AND A BED IN A
TENT WITH SLIT TRENCH ALONGSIDE IN CASE OF AN AIR RAID . BURNED
AREAS WRAPPED IN GAUZE THAT HAD SOAKED IN "FOIL" AND LEFT ON
FOR TIME ONLY POURING MORE OF THE LIQUID ON DAILY.
AS THE ARMY SUFFERED FROM LACK OF US SUPPLIES AS WE DID THEY
SOMEHOW HAD AN OVER SUPPLY OF SALMON. BAKE, BOILED AND
STEWED SALMON THREE TIMES PER DAY. LUCKILY OUR SKIPPER VISITED
AND BROUGHT SOME NAVY CHOW PLUS A FEW BEERS FOR OUR USE .
BACK TO THE NAVY AND RETURN TO NEW GUINEA. NOW FINCHAVEN
AND WEWAK TO END lAPS OCCUPATION OF NEW GUINEA.

�A SHIP TO BRISBANE, TRAIN RIDE TO SYDNEY AND FEW DAYS OF R&amp;R
THEN A LIBERTY SHIP TO SAN FRANCISCO, CALIFORNIA. TRAIN TO
CHICAGO AND THIRTY DAY LEAVE THEN TRAIN TO BOSTON. AND A
SHORT STAY IN CHELSEA NAVAL HOSPITAL. ARMY TRANSPORT SHIP TO
LIVERPOOL, ENGLAND ARRIVING ON A DARK RAINY NIGHT.
A TRAIN SOUTYH TO PLYMOUTH AND OUR FIST SIGHT OF BARRAGE
BALLOONS FLYING OVER AN ARE THAT HAD BEEN BOl\1BED. EAST TO
FERRY BOAT BEING USED AS PT BOAT BASE ON THE ENGLISH CHANEL.
NOW IN SQUADRON THIRTY FOUR, A FIRST CLASS MOTOR MACHINIST
MATE AT OVER A HUNDRED DOLLARS PER MONTH. AND NOW A
DIFFERENT WAR.
WITH CHERBOURG, FRANCE OCCUPIED BY US ARMY WE NOW MOVED
OUR BASE TO CHERBOURG AND A HARBOR LOADED WITH EVERYTHING
THE RETREATING GERMANS COULD SINK. FINALLY CLEARED ENOUGH
FOR SUPPLY SHIPS AND THRY CONSTANTLY UNLOADED SUPPLIES TO BE
TAKEN TO THE FRONT VIA RED BALL EXPRESS.
VIEWING THE CONCRETE U-BOAT PENS AND THE CONCRETE GUN
EMPLACEMENTS COVERING THE CHANEL IT IS AMAZING THE GERMANS
WERE DEFEATED HERE . BASE FORCE NOW RESIDED IN AN OLD NAPOLEAN
BARRACKS .
PATROLS EVADED GETTING INTO SHOOT OUT WITH GERMAN E BOATS
THAT WERE BASED ON AN ISLAND NEAR CHERBOURG. THE 120 FOOT E
BOATS WERE FAST AND HEAVLY ARMED . RETURN TO ENGLAND AND
SOME OF THE BOATS WENT TO SCOTLAND TO BE GIVEN TO THE
RUSSIANS.
SHW TO BOSTON, TRAIN TO CALIFORNIA AND THE SHOEMAKER NAVL
RECEIVING STATION. PASSED OUT AND ENDED UP IN THE SHOEMAKER
NAVAL HOSPITAL. TRAIN TO CHICAGO FOR DUTY NEAR HOME. GREAT
LAKES NAVAL HOSPITAL, END OF WWII AND RECEIVED A MEDICAL
DISCHARGE.

�</text>
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                  <text>The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.</text>
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                  <text>Smither, James&#13;
Boring, Frank</text>
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                <text>Lindner, Paul (Interview outline, video, and papers), 2007</text>
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              <elementText elementTextId="548410">
                <text>Lindner, Paul</text>
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          <element elementId="41">
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              <elementText elementTextId="548411">
                <text>Paul Lindner was born in Indiana in the early 1920s and joined the US Navy on July 3, 1941.  Paul went through basic training in Chicago and was then sent to Rhode Island to train as a mechanic working on torpedo boats.  Paul later traveled through the Pacific to Panama, Australia, New Guinea, Milne Island, Boona, and Kiriwina Island.  Paul was also sent to Europe where he patrolled off the coast off Plymouth, England, and Cherbourg, France.  He was eventually transferred to the Pacific shortly before the war ended, and never served there. Photographs and an account of military service are appended to interview outline.</text>
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              <elementText elementTextId="548423">
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              <elementText elementTextId="548431">
                <text>2007-06-29</text>
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                <text>&lt;a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455"&gt;Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)&lt;/a&gt;</text>
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                <text>application/pdf</text>
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              <elementText elementTextId="1031272">
                <text>Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives</text>
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                    <text>Grand Valley State University
Veterans’ History Project
Jay Lindquist
Cold War/Vietnam War
1 hour 29 minutes 3 seconds
(00:00:12) Early Life
-Born in Chicago on November 15, 1934
-His father was Harold Lindquist and his mother was Mildred Lindquist
-Went to school in Chicago
-Except for one year of high school
-He had been born on the south side of Chicago but grew up on the north side
-Family moved to the north side in 1941
-Graduated from Lakeview High School in 1952
(00:02:35) Joining the Naval Academy
-At the end of his senior year of high school he wasn’t sure where to go for college
-A senator was offering an appointment test for one of the military academies
-The summer after graduating he took the test
-Passed it with flying colors
-Given the choice of going to West Point or Annapolis Naval Academy
-Chose the Naval Academy
-Went to the Illinois Institute of Technology for a few classes to prepare him for the academy
-Mostly economics and algebra courses
-Took an academic examination for the Navy and passed that
-Went to Great Lakes Naval Station in Chicago for the Navy physical
-Received his orders to report to the Naval Academy
-Had to be there on June 29, 1953
(00:05:54) Arrival at the Naval Academy
-Flew from Chicago to Washington DC and from Washington DC to Baltimore, Maryland
-Arrived at the academy at 2 AM
-Given a bed and instructions for the next day
-His class started off with 1100 cadets
-By the time graduation rolled around they had lost 300
-Sworn into the Navy as a midshipman on June 29, 1953
(00:07:25) Naval Academy-First Year
-Went into the first year summer known as “plebe” summer
-Focus was on assimilation into the Navy
-Given a book that covered the history, language, protocol, and customs of the Navy
-Taught by third year students and company officers
-During the official first year he had twenty hours of class credit per semester
-Expected to be involved in athletic and/or extracurricular groups
-Stressed academic and military discipline
-Integration into military living
-Adjusted to life at the academy pretty well
-He was self-disciplined so the change wasn’t too difficult

�(00:11:05) Naval Academy-First Cruise
-Went on his first cruise in summer of 1954 aboard the battleship USS New Jersey
-Went across the Atlantic Ocean and stopped in Vigo, Spain
-Sailed up to France and visited the Normandy Beaches and Cherbourg
-Also given the chance to take a train into Paris
-Sailed to Guantanamo Bay, Cuba for artillery training
-Cruise lasted sixty days
(00:13:02) Naval Academy-Second Year
-Upon returning from the cruise he was promoted to 3rd class midshipman
-Academic load was the same during the second year
-Focus now was on engineering, physics, chemistry, and advanced mathematics
-Had to choose a foreign language to specialize in
-He chose Russian
-Taught how to properly coordinate and fire naval artillery
-During his second year he and the other cadets were allowed to Saturdays and Sundays off
(00:14:33) Naval Academy-Second Cruise
-In the summer of 1955 he went aboard the aircraft carrier the USS Valley Forge
-Cruise was to teach the cadets about naval aviation
-Sailed to Halifax, Nova Scotia
-Sailed down to Little Beach, Virginia and coordinated a training mission with the Marines
-Carried out an amphibious landing there
(00:15:30) Naval Academy-Third Year
-Returned from the cruise and was made a 2nd class midshipman
-Given far more responsibility
-Focus was on flying
-Trained with the N3N “Yellow Peril” pontoon aircraft
-Taught how to take off, land, and do basic flying
-Also taught more about Marine amphibious operations and the Navy’s involvement with that
(00:17:05) Naval Academy-Third Cruise
-Third cruise was aboard the destroyer the USS Perry in the summer of 1956
-Stayed in the bow with the chief petty officers
-Taught how to use a sextant and navigate by way of the stars
-Pulled into Portsmouth, England and saw Lord Nelson’s HMS Victory there
-Also given the chance to visit London while they were there
-From England sailed over to Stockholm, Sweden before sailing home
(00:18:03) Air Force-Flight Training
-Senior year decided that the branch of service he would go into would be the Air Force
-Wanted to go into pilot training
-During his senior year he was part of Honor Colors Company (esteemed position)
-In September 1957 he reported to Graham Air Base, Florida for primary flight training
-First aircraft he flew there was the T34 Mentor
-In Class of 59B
-Graduated to the T28
-Early WWII fighter plane
-Excellent aircraft for acrobatic maneuvers

�(00:21:24) Air Force-Basic Training
-In early 1958 (January/February) he was sent to Webb Air Force Base, Texas for basic training
-Flew the T33A
-A modified F80 fighter jet from the Korean War
-Remembers his first solo flight aboard the T33A
-Fifteen minutes into the flight his reserve fuel tanks stopped working
-Had to drop the reserve tanks so that he could safely land
-On September 8, 1958 he received his wings
(00:24:24) Air Force Assignments-Moody Air Force Base
-Because of his class standing he was given the choice of what type of pilot he wanted to be
-Fighter, bomber, or transportation
-Chose to be a fighter pilot specifically working with all-weather interceptors
-Sent to Moody Air Force Base, Georgia later in 1958
-Did a lot of ground training there
-Taught how to fly on instruments and instruments alone
-Part of being prepared to fly in any and all forms of weather
-First time flying in a flight simulator was at Moody
-Had to fly the F86 fighter jet by yourself
-Instructor flew as your wing man
-Loved the feeling of turning on the afterburner as he took off
-People died during training missions
-Malfunctions and attempting to do maneuvers they weren’t prepared to pull off yet
-Completed fighter pilot training in 1959 but was kept on as an instructor until 1961
-Remembers losing an engine during a training mission
-Worked with primitive guided missile systems
-Remembers scrambling a few times in the middle of the might
-Part of being prepared in the event of needing to intercept enemy aircraft
(00:34:49) Air Force Assignments-University of Michigan
-In 1961 he was sent to the University of Michigan to study astronautics
-During his time at U of M he would go out flying on his own to keep from getting rusty
-Class was made up of only about twelve people
-Mostly West Point graduates
-Studied with the man who designed the command module for the Apollo rockets
-Completed the program in 1963
(00:36:01) Air Force Assignments-Air Force Rocket Propulsion Lab
-After U of M he was sent to the Air Force Rocket Propulsion Lab
-Part of Edwards Air Force Base in California
-Promoted to the rank of captain
-Given the position of Test Rocket Officer
-In charge of engineers that were developing rocket propellants for weapons systems
-Worked in conjunction with Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, Ohio
-Remembers witnessing the classified SR71 Blackbird taking off
(00:38:33) Volunteering for Vietnam
-In 1964 he volunteered to go to Vietnam
-Knew that it was a police action

�-Knew that JFK had sent over military advisors
-Hoped to be sent over to fly fighter jets against the North Vietnamese
-In 1965 during the troop surge he was told he would be flying the O1 Birddog
-Propeller driven, primitive, observation plane
-Disappointing assignment
-Wound up being a blessing in disguise
-Flying the O1 truly taught him how to fly
(00:42:25) SERE Training and Other Pre-Vietnam Training
-Went through SERE training at Fairchild Air Force Base in Spokane, Washington
-Survival Evasion Resistance and Escape training
-Having been an Eagle Scout it wasn’t hard for him to live in the wild
-Worked in pairs in the wilderness
-Moved at night and had to hide during the day
-His partner wasn’t doing so well, and much to his frustration, was swapped out
-Considered the move “unrealistic”
-At the end of field training got placed in solitary confinement
-Went through interrogation, and mild torture training (sleep deprivation, confinement)
-Fared that well
-Placed in a mock prisoner of war camp
-Had to work together with the other “prisoners” to escape from the camp
-Sent to Maxwell Air Force Base in Alabama after SERE
-Taught air combat tactics in only twenty four hours of flight time
-After Maxwell AFB he was sent to Washington DC for counter-insurgency training
-Also taught about Vietnamese language, culture, and history
(00:50:42) Deployment to Vietnam
-Sent to Vietnam on November 9, 1965
-Flew out of Travis Air Force Base, California
-Landed in Tan Son Nhut Air Base near Saigon
-Remembers the unfathomable humidity
-Shocked by the filth and poverty present
-Spent a night in a hotel in Saigon
-The next day he hitched a ride on a C-130 to a base north of Hue near the demilitarized zone
-Had to jump off the moving plane so it could avoid getting targeted by artillery
-From Hue he hitched another ride to his final destination of Da Nang
(00:53:56) Duties in Vietnam
-Reported to the 110th Vietnamese Liaison Squadron
-His position was to be part of Air Force Advisory Team 7
-Detachment 10 of 1131st Special Activities Squadron
-His job was to train Vietnamese instructors on how to train Vietnamese pilots
-He was also responsible for developing tactics and testing aircraft
-He also flew recon, convoy escort, artillery observation, and communication combat missions
-Flew transportation missions to get high ranking officers across the country
-Had to fly low and memorize the territory that he was flying in as well as be unpredictable
-If you flew the same way all the time you became an easy target
-Had to fly over rural and jungle areas to avoid the roads
-Flew with a Vietnamese observer that helped him to mark areas for artillery and for air strikes

�-Eventually had his plane modified so he could shoot smoke rockets to mark targets
-Always supported South Vietnamese ground forces
-Never had any experience with supporting U.S. ground troops
-Incredibly difficult to fly into royal palace in the city of Hue
-Had to clear a twelve foot high wall on landing and on takeoff
(01:02:16) Downtime in Vietnam and Relationship with Other Soldiers
-He sang and played guitar in the NCO and officers’ clubs to raise money for orphans
-Taught the wives of the Vietnamese officers some English
-Decided that he wanted to go to medical school
-Taught himself how to prepare for the MCAT
-Took the MCAT in Manila, Philippines
-Had a lot of respect for the ground troops and what they had to deal with
-Spent some R&amp;R in Bangkok and Hong Kong
-Vietnamese pilots were outstanding at what they did
-Vietnamese observers also did their job exceptionally well
(01:06:00) Distinguished Flying Cross and Other Commendations
-During his time in Vietnam he earned the Distinguished Flying Cross and the Bronze Star
-He earned the Distinguished Flying Cross during a close air support mission
-Vietnamese unit was surrounded by the enemy
-He stuck around and continued to mark targets for them until reinforcements arrived to
evacuate them
-Deliberately put himself in harm’s way to insure the safety of the ground troops
-Simply felt that he was doing his job
(01:08:18) Coming Home Pt. 1
-Despite some of the harassment he faced for his veteran status he is glad that he served
-He returned home in 1966
-Did face discrimination upon coming home
(01:09:01) Other Details about Vietnam
-Lived in a hotel in Da Nang
-Got viciously, dangerously ill when he first arrived in Vietnam
-Remembers witnessing an attempted coup in 1966
-Close enough to the action to hear tanks moving in the street and gunfire
-Didn’t have any interaction with the greater civilian populace
-Only ever talked to officers’ wives
-Had a Vietnamese housekeeper whom he never saw
-Remembers losing an engine during a mission due to fuel problems
-Thought that he would have to ditch the plane
-During R&amp;R called his mom in Hong Kong
-She knew that something traumatic had happened to him and was bothering him
-Was, and still is, amazed over the fact that she was able to know that
(01:13:05) Coming Home Pt. 2
-Flew out of Tan Son Nhut Air Base back to the United States
-Feels that the quick return time is why so many Vietnam vets have psychological baggage
-Didn’t have a chance to decompress before going back to civilian life
(01:14:06) Air Defense Weapons Center and Leaving the Air Force
-Upon returning he was sent to the Air Defense Weapons Center, Tyndall Air Force Base Florida

�-He was placed in charge of a team of aeronautic and astronautic engineers
-They were developing new missile systems
-Working on canopy designs for the F101 and F106
-Designing diagnostic systems for jets
-Precursor to what every car has now (warning lights/messages)
-While there he also worked as a Tow pilot over the Gulf of Mexico
-Towed a target behind an aircraft
-Allowed pilots to target practice on a flying, moving target
-While there began to learn to fly the F101B
-One of the fighter bombers that carried the Genie air-air nuclear rocket
-Didn’t complete the combat readiness program for it though
-No longer wanted to be in the Air Force due to not being allowed to go back to college
-Gave up his officer commission and resigned
(01:19:30) University of Michigan and Air National Guard
-Returned to the University of Michigan to get his master’s degree in business administration
-While there joined the Michigan Air National Guard out of Detroit
-Signed on as a major
-Given a new commission
-Flew photo reconnaissance missions in the F101 Voodoo
-Completed the master’s program and was accepted into the PhD program
-Stopped flying in 1973 and was given command of an aircraft maintenance squadron
-Had to overhaul and make the squadron more efficient and disciplined
-By the time he was done with them the squadron had turned itself around
-Made it to the rank of lieutenant colonel
-Almost made it to the rank of colonel
-Position was given to another officer who only had eighteen months left
-Part of some of the shady politics that he didn’t appreciate
-Resigned from the Air National Guard after that
(01:26:04) Life after Air Force and Reflections on Service
-Went to Western Michigan University and took a job there
-Became a professor of marketing there
-Felt that all in all the Air Force was a good career
-He feels that, and is glad that, he contributed to the country and to the war effort
-Feels now that there was a lot of misrepresentation of Vietnam
-Both in the government and in the media
-Still impressed by the skill of the Vietnamese pilots
Starting at 23:40 Jay’s audio quality starts to deteriorate. It’s not terrible, but the best way
I can think to describe how it sounds is “watery” or like there is an echo. You can still hear
what he’s saying, but you have to turn up the volume and listen a little more attentively. It
goes back to normal at 40:11

�</text>
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                <text>Jay Lindquist was born in 1934 in Chicago, Illinois, and graduated from high school there in 1952. He attended the Naval Academy and served on several ships before transferring to the Air Force in 1957. He trained as a fighter pilot served as a flight instructor, and then trained to work with rocket systems before volunteering for duty in Vietnam. He served there between 1965 and 1966 training Vietnamese pilots and flying observation aircraft out of Da Nang with the 110th Vietnamese Liaison Squadron, and won the Distinguished Flying Cross on one of his missions.. He returned home in 1966 and worked at the Air Defense Weapons Center in Florida until he resigned from the Air Force to pursue a business degree at the University of Michigan during which time he served with the Michigan Air National Guard until he resigned from there as a lieutenant colonel and took a job at Western Michigan University as a marketing professor.</text>
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                    <text>Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
World War II
Bernie Link
Length of interview: 01:02:42:00












Born in Detroit, Michigan in 1925 (00:00:53:00)
His parents immigrated to the United States from Germany in 1923 along with his older
brother, who was three at the time (00:00:57:00)
o He has often said in response to the question of “what is the best thing that ever
happened to you” was the day that his mother and father got off the boat at Ellis
Island (00:01:06:00)
o The Lord only knows what insanity they would have been caught up in while in
Europe (00:01:20:00)
 His father had fought in the German army for four years having grown up
in what was then East Prussia and was seventeen miles from Paris [no
German forces were that close by that time, but they had penetrated that
far earlier] when the armistice was declared and he wanted no part of that
again (00:01:24:00)
Went to Fitzgerald Grade School in Detroit and because there were no buses then, the
brothers walked well over a mile to school (00:01:47:00)
His parents lost their house during the Great Depression in 1936, forcing the family to
move, which was a traumatic experience (00:01:57:00)
o He went to another grade school and finished his schooling at Northwestern High
School in 1943 (00:02:06:00)
The attack on Pearl Harbor was one of the dates that “you never forget”, but not
necessarily because of what happened (00:02:21:00)
o At about 10:30 in the morning, he was in the tenth grade and all activity at the
high school ceased while they carried FDR’s speak to Congress on Monday,
December 8th over the loudspeaker system (00:02:28:00)
o If that was not enough excitement for one day, when Link got home, he learned
that his older brother, who was five years, had enlisted in the Marine Corps
(00:02:46:00)
 His brother never said a word about it to anyone; his attitude was if
someone wanted to do something, then do it and do not make a big display
about it (00:03:05:00)
There was some general conversation about the situation abroad and how the United
States would avenge the attack on Pearl Harbor (00:03:31:00)
o The way that they kept abreast of the news was on the radio but other than that, he
does not any specific recollections about revenge (00:03:45:00)
o Life continued on pretty normally for them (00:04:03:00)
He graduated high school in the summer of 1943 and went to downtown Detroit to enlist
in the Marine Corps and follow in the footsteps of his brother; however, the Marines
turned him down because of his eyesight (00:04:13:00)

�









He was a stock-boy at the local A&amp;P store at the time and his manager, a man by the
name of Paul Bond, was Sean Connery before there was a Sean Connery (00:04:32:00)
o Bond had served in the Marines in China for roughly eight years and he told
Link’s mother not to worry, that the Marines would not take him (00:04:44:00)
Link looked at this as a challenge so that when he was drafted a little bit later in 1943, he
will never forget the experience (00:05:01:00)
o When he had finished his physical, a Navy Lieutenant was sitting there and he
asked Link “Army or Navy” (00:05:11:00)
o When he said “Marine Corps”, the Lieutenant said very indignantly “I said,
‘Army or Navy’”, to which Link replied, “I said Marine Corps” (00:05:20:00)
o They had been through this many times before because there was a Marine
gunnery sergeant standing over to the side with ten or twelve other men and the
Lieutenant turned and asked if he wanted Link, as if he were a piece of meat
(00:05:34:00)
o The gunnery sergeant looked him up and down and said “Yeah, they would take
him” (00:05:49:00)
The Marines later notified him that he would be shipping out to San Diego boot camp on
December 23rd (00:06:03:00)
o His mother could not understand that Link was so important to the war effort that
he had to leave two days before Christmas; however, the program was set and he
had to go (00:06:13:00)
There were seventeen men from Detroit that got on the train to Chicago and on to San
Diego, where the men were inducted into Marine Corps boot camp (00:06:27:00)
o The men had one exciting incident during the train trip to California
(00:06:44:00)
 Their train passed a train full of Navy enlistees and Link’s train had two
men from Marine Corps aboard, who were dressed in their dress blue
uniforms (00:06:48:00)
 One of the Marines was cocky and when one of the sailors made the
mistake of commenting about the Marines being “seagoing bellhops”, the
Marines’ response nearly caused a riot (00:06:58:00)
o The train trip took three days to get out to San Diego, although the men ended up
stopping at a railroad depot in Santa Fe (00:07:32:00)
o Because he was with that group of men for so long and they were so close
together on the train, Link and the other men developed a camaraderie between
one another (00:07:47:00)
Link had pneumonia in July, 1943 and had recovered, but when he got in boot camp, he
got sick again in January, 1944, which caused him to miss training with his original
platoon (00:07:59:00)
o He was in the hospital for about two weeks and the Marines felt that he had
missed too much, so they reassigned him (00:08:15:00)
 Link often wonders what impact the reassignment had on his life and
where he would have gone had it not been for the reassignment
(00:08:23:00)
o Because of the reassignment, Link lost track of the other sixteen men that traveled
with him on the train from Detroit to San Diego (00:08:32:00)

�





The experience of going into the Marine Corps at that time, with the discipline and
actions that the instructors did, was quite an adjustment (00:08:55:00)
o It seemed as if the drill instructors went out of their way to do everything they
could to humiliate the trainees and break them down before starting to rebuild
them (00:09:14:00)
The instructors could do some of the darnedest things that made no rhyme or reason;
however, the men were not in a position to challenge them (00:09:27:00)
o One of the first experiences Link recalls was when the men were standing in line
at the sick-bay to receive some shots, the drill instructor ordered all the men to
raise their left foot (00:09:40:00)
 All the men raised their left foot and then the drill instructor ordered them
to raise their right foot (00:09:53:00)
 The instructor would always get into someone’s face and chew them out,
asking “who ordered them to lower their left foot” (00:10:04:00)
o Sometimes, the instructors would call the men out at two o’clock in the morning
in the pouring rain and tell them they were going to go on a forced march
(00:10:16:00)
 The men would get ready and would be standing in the pouring rain while
the drill instructor would be talking to the men from inside a hut; after
barking orders at the men for half an hour, the instructor would call off the
march (00:10:23:00)
 Meanwhile, the trainees would walk back inside their barracks madder
than hell, ready to tear the walls down (00:10:44:00)
o Other times, during drills out on the parade field, if a trainee would screw up, the
instructor would tell the trainee to run over to a large Lockheed airfield next to the
depot and ask if a plane was taking off (00:10:55:00)
 The distance was about a mile from the parade field to the airfield and the
trainee would have to run a mile to the airfield, then return and often
report that no plane was taking off (00:11:11:00)
 If the instructor did not like the trainee at all or he really wanted to make
an impression, then he would tell the trainee to go back and check again,
because maybe there was a plane taking off then (00:11:20:00)
While the men were in basic training, the Marines were forming the 5th Marine Division
at Camp Pendleton and once Link’s boot camp platoon finished with the eight weeks of
boot camp, the entire platoon was assigned to the division (00:11:20:00)
o Personally, Link was assigned to the 28th Marine Regiment (00:12:13:00)
o The 28th Marines was housed in a tent camp out in the boondocks of Camp
Pendleton (00:12:24:00)
o At the time, a standard Marine division had three infantry regiments and within
each regiments were three battalions and within each battalion were three
companies (00:12:41:00)
 There were also support groups such as artillery and armored in the
division but the main fighting force consisted of the three infantry
regiments (00:12:55:00)
 A battalion typically had between eight hundred and one thousand men,
with two hundred or so men assigned to each company (00:13:09:00)

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At this time, Link was a private, although he was later elevated to the rank private first
class (PFC), the rank at which he remained for the majority of the rest of his tour
(00:13:28:00)
At some point, the corporal above Link decided that Link would make a good Browning
Automatic Rifleman (00:13:51:00)
o Link was not one of the biggest guys in the platoon and although Link put up a
fight and asked the corporal to give the B.A.R. to one of the bigger men in the
platoon, the corporal stood fast (00:13:57:00)
o Within his platoon, there were three squads, which were further broken down into
four-man units and each unit had both a leader and a Browning Automatic
Rifleman (00:14:15:00)
o The problem with being the Browning Automatic Rifleman was not so much the
rifle itself, but the magazines of ammunition on the belt; there were about fifteen
magazines and each weighed over a pound (00:14:30:00)
Everyday, Link trained on the rifle range with the B.A.R. and everyday, the men did
something to train for the inevitable day that they would be in combat (00:14:52:00)
o While at Camp Pendleton, the men would go out on forced marches and
maneuvers, “snooping and pooping”, as the men used to call it, which became a
daily routine (00:15:02:00)
At some point, the Marines set up a program to alleviate some of the congestion of Los
Angeles from Marines on liberty leave, so the men were on duty for ten days then off for
three days, rather than having liberty leave every weekend (00:15:18:00)
o Because of this new program, the men trained right through Saturdays and
Sundays (00:15:42:00)
The men had no idea whatsoever where they were going, except that they were going to
end up somewhere in the Pacific; Link does not even know if by early 1944 whether it
had been decided the role that the 5th Marine Division would play (00:15:48:00)
o In training, the men did not have much in the way of news because they did not
have television and they had little in the way of radio or newspapers; however,
when they went on liberty leave into Los Angeles, the men picked up some clues
as to what was going on (00:16:33:00)
During liberty leave, the men did not have much money, only $21 a month from the
Marines, so they were not able to do much (00:17:07:00)
o When Link and his buddies would go on liberty leave, they would go to the Clark
Hotel in downtown Los Angeles and if someone got a room, they did not want the
fact to be known because the other men would pile into the room; more than once
Link ended up sleeping in the bathtub (00:17:16:00)
o While on liberty leave, the men would go to band concerts at one of the parks in
the city and hang out at a pavilion (00:17:46:00)
o To get to Los Angeles, they would thumb a ride usually from Camp Pendleton to
Laguna Beach and from Laguna Beach, they would thumb a ride north to into the
city (00:18:18:00)
o For the most part, the civilians were very cordial and supportive of the Marines
(00:18:42:00)

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One time, when the men were thumbing for rides in Laguna Beach, a
couple invited them to their home, where the men had a bite to eat and
some conversation before getting back on the road (00:18:50:00)
o By coincidence, the parents of a friend of Link’s, who had originally lived in
Detroit, had moved to Glendale, California and eventually, after the parents and
Link got connected, he went up and spent a weekend with the parents
(00:19:10:00)
o Some of the men had family connections in the city and they had a different
experience than the men who spent the three day leave bumming around the city
(00:19:37:00)
o After the three days were over, the men would catch the train back to Oceanside
and Camp Pendleton (00:19:54:00)
In August, 1944, the men shipped out to the big island of Hawaii (00:20:21:00)
o Pulling up to Hawaii from a distance was a big impression because the island was
all green and nothing like anything any of the men had ever seen; from a distance,
the island looked like one huge golf course (00:20:36:00)
o The men landed at Hilo, Hawaii and they were trucked up to a position named
Camp Tarawa on the side of one of the volcanoes (00:21:00:00)
 The area was different terrain all together; the camp had every different
type of terrain imaginable, including dustbowls from the volcano damage
and jungles that were in the clouds all day (00:21:13:00)
o The men spent their entire time at Camp Tarawa in training, which consisted of
the men being out in the field every day doing maneuvers and assaulting
imaginary pillboxes; a lot of the training was conditioning, due to the men doing a
large amount of walking (00:21:34:00)
There was still no indication of where the men would be headed (00:22:12:00)
Eventually, the men left Camp Tarawa and went to the island of Maui and did some
practice landings with Higgins boats, something that they had also done in California
(00:22:19:00)
o While doing the landings in California, President Roosevelt and Secretary of the
Navy Forrestal witnessed one of the landings; the men could see all the dignitaries
on a platform overlooking the beach (00:22:41:00)
They did the practice landings on Maui and then the men went into Pearl Harbor until the
Marines organized everything and the ships were supplied with provisions (00:22:57:00)
o The men stayed in three-day routine; on any given day: one-third of the troops
stayed aboard ship, one-third of the troops stayed on the ship but did guard duty,
and one-third had liberty leave (00:23:10:00)
o The men never really got over to Pearl Harbor proper; they spent most of their
time at Waikiki Beach, which mostly gave the men the ability to go swimming in
the ocean, something that constituted the majority of their recreation while on
liberty leave (00:23:41:00)
o Some of the older men would go hang out in the bars but this was not something
that Link was attracted to (00:24:07:00)
Eventually, the men boarded ship and departed Hawaii but before they left, Link saw an
article in a Honolulu paper that talked about the bombing of Iwo Jima; however, there
was no indication from any of their officers where they were headed (00:24:21:00)

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o Link does not know if a lot of his officers even knew where they were headed; if
the Marines were going to break the news of their assignment, they were going to
wait until everyone was aboard ship so that there was not the possibility of a slip
of the lip as to where the men were headed (00:24:40:00)
o When the men were briefed aboard ship, Link put two and two together and
remembered the drawing of a pork-chop shaped island in the Honolulu newspaper
(00:25:00:00)
The men spent sixty days aboard ship and the trip was painful because they had nothing
to do; Link still has a picture a picture of the APA (Amphibious Personnel Assault), the
U.S.S. Lubbock, that the men sailed on (00:25:19:00)
o APAs were troopships built by Henry Kaiser’s shipyards in Washington state
(00:26:03:00)
o There were dozens of the APAs that carried enough men for three Marine
divisions for the assault on Iwo Jima (00:26:20:00)
At the time, the 4th Marine Division was in the Marianas, having participated in that
campaign; Link does not know where the 3rd Marine Division was and his convoy
consisted mostly of the 5th Marine Division (00:26:31:00)
o The ships in Link’s convoy rendezvoused in the middle of the ocean and while
waiting for some ships to catch up with the main convoy, the ships sat in the
middle of the ocean with a clear blue sky and a clear blue ocean (00:26:48:00)
During the journey, the captain of the Lubbock was outstanding; on the first day the men
aboard the ship and headed out to sea, the captain said that he understood how difficult
the journey would be and the importance of a shower to the men, so from four o’clock
until five o’clock before dinner, the men would be allowed to take showers (00:27:04:00)
o Life on the ship was still a boring existence; the men would get up every day and
go topside and sit on the hot deck in the hot sun and Link would like a dollar for
every game of pinochle the men played (00:27:51:00)
o The men were packed into the hold of the Lubbock for night, which was very
uncomfortable for them (00:28:12:00)
o The men got close to the international date line but they never crossed it, although
some other men did (00:28:37:00)
o While the ships were sitting in the middle of the ocean waiting for the slower
ships to catch up, the captain said that if any of the men would like to go
swimming, he would put some boats down with machine gunners in case any
sharks showed up (00:28:41:00)
 Just to break the monotony, some of the men went for a swim; it was quite
a dive from the top of the railing of a troop carrier to the ocean but Link
did it anyway, partly to prove something to himself (00:29:04:00)
He can still picture the convoy once the other ships caught up; there were two columns of
APAs with destroyers, destroyer escorts, and cruisers on the outside providing some
protection (00:29:40:00)
o The convoy headed to Saipan, where the convoy rendezvoused again before
heading to Iwo Jima (00:30:00:00)
o The men knew that there had been quite a battle for Guam, Saipan, and Tinian in
the Marshall [Mariana] Islands (00:30:17:00)

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Link did not have any inclination about what he was about to get into; some of the men
who had been in other engagements did but the men who were young and naïve had no
idea what awaited them (00:30:38:00)
o The platoon had one sergeant who had fought on Tarawa, but he was rather quiet
and he did not go into much detail about his experiences (00:30:58:00)
o Other men in the unit had been with the Marine paratroopers at Bougainville and
when the Marines disbanded the paratroopers, they assigned a bunch of the exparatroopers to Link’s regiment; these men too had combat experience but they
never talk about it much (00:31:11:00)
o The men were young, eager, enthusiastic and probably a bit foolish and they did
not know what awaited them (00:31:34:00)
The men were not permitted off-ship at Saipan; the ships laid anchor in the harbor and
waited for the convoy to organize (00:31:46:00)
After staying at Saipan, the convoy sailed for Iwo Jima, which itself was not a long trip,
and they arrived at the island in the early morning (00:32:19:00)
o The men awoke to the “darndest” bombardment they had ever seen; the Navy had
been pounding Iwo Jima for days not only with airplanes but battleships and
cruisers (00:32:38:00)
o There was a non-stop bombardment for seventy-two hours before the actual
invasion, but the pre-invasion bombardment had been going on for seventy-two
days (00:33:02:00)
When the men woke up in the morning and went topside for breakfast, they stopped at
the railing to watch the bombardment, which was unbelievable to see because the whole
island was shrouded in smoke from the rocket launchers and the ships (00:33:15:00)
o This was one of the reasons that some people came to the conclusion that the
battle was going to be a cakewalk; there was no Japanese activity visible on the
island (00:33:55:00)
o There was no return fire from the Japanese and Link believes that this was part
the strategy of the commanding Japanese officer, Kuribayashi (00:34:08:00)
 Kuribayashi was personally selected by the Emperor for the defense of
Iwo Jima; he was highly regarded general in the Japanese Army and he
spent his time at the island fortifying it and digging an extensive network
of tunnels that ran under the entire island (00:34:25:00)
 The Japanese could walk around the entire island without ever coming
above ground, so all they did was sit tight and let the Americans bombard
the island (00:34:46:00)
 When the Americans saw no activity on the island, they assumed that
everyone was dead (00:34:58:00)
o There is nothing in civilian life that he can describe the sound to; the noise, the
smoke, the flames, it was just awesome to witness that display of firepower
(00:35:20:00)
 The U.S.S. Nevada, which had been damaged at Pearl Harbor and
repaired, was at Iwo Jima and watching the sixteen [fourteen] inch guns
fire was impressive (00:35:50:00)
 Meanwhile, airplanes dropped bomb after bomb after bomb (00:36:04:00)

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o After watching the bombardment, the men went down to breakfast, which was
quite an unusual experience because all the men were tight; although some men
tried to make light of the situation, there was more nervous laughter than genuine
laughter and most of the men did not talk at all (00:36:25:00)
 The breakfast was the best meal the men had had in the Marines; they had
steak and eggs and mashed potatoes and one of the men in line turned to
the man behind him and said that it looked like they were fattening the
men up for the kill (00:36:53:00)
 The man standing behind punched the man who made the
comment because the man who threw the punch was that wound
up (00:37:06:00)
The men realized that this was it and all the “snooping and pooping” they had done was
play stuff compared to what they now had to do; however, they still did not fully
appreciate what was in store for them (00:37:34:00)
The anxiety level kept growing and growing and after breakfast, the men went topside
again to watch more of the bombardment then below to get their gear (00:37:52:00)
o Every man had a pack and Link had his B.A.R. and once everyone had their gear,
they went over to the rail, down the nets and into the Higgins boats (00:38:07:00)
o The swells would raise and lower the boats and the men had to time themselves so
that when they let go of the rope, they did not have to fall too far to the bottom of
the Higgins boat (00:38:21:00)
o Link let go at what he thought was the right time but the Higgins boat fell about
eight feet and when he hit the deck with all his gear on, he thought his war was
over right there (00:38:33:00)
 As well, all the other men were pilling on top of him and he had a hell of a
time before he got out from underneath the other men and got himself
organized (00:38:48:00)
o There was about forty or fifty men in each Higgins boat, probably Link’s whole
platoon (00:39:07:00)
The men had one session with their lieutenant prior to the invasion, when the lieutenant
told them what their mission was, but did not give a lot of specific instructions as to what
to do; the men were to just follow their platoon lieutenant and platoon sergeant, as well as
the squad leaders (00:39:40:00)
After launching, Link’s Higgins boat rendezvoused with other Higgins boats that
constituted the second wave of the invasion (00:40:22:00)
Link and his unit landed at Red Beach, the beach closest to Mount Suribachi, and their
main objective was to cut the island in half at that point, although the island was only
about seven hundred and fifty yards wide at that location (00:40:28:00)
o The island was terraced; there were three terraces that went up one side to the
crest and then three terraces that went down the other side to the ocean
(00:40:43:00)
o The men were expected to cut the island in half and then swing left for the assault
on Mount Suribachi itself (00:40:57:00)
 They were supposed to secure Suribachi by the end of the first day; the
famous flag-raising was not until the fifth day (00:41:06:00)

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As the Higgins boats rendezvoused for the second wave, the bombardment of the island
continued, which was a fireworks display unlike anything Link had ever seen
(00:41:27:00)
o As the troops started to land, the Navy lifted the bombardment of the beaches and
concentrated more on bombarding Suribachi and the area to the north of the
landing beaches (00:41:59:00)
The men eventually landed on the beach, although the beach was not a beach in the
traditional sense because instead of decline into the ocean, it dropped off into a cliff
(00:42:26:00)
o When the ramp on the Higgins boat went, sometimes it got pulled off the beach
and some of the men, weighed down by their equipment, drowned; there was no
way that they could get unbundled and they sank like rocks (00:42:45:00)
The men’s first objective once they landed was to run up the beach and flop down, trying
to figure out where they were and who they were going to follow and where their platoon
and squad leaders were (00:43:10:00)
The shooting started about the time that Link landed on the beach because the strategy of
Japanese defenders was to let the beaches get congested with men and equipment before
opening fire; General Kuribayashi told his people to just hold their fire, an action
contrary to what the Japanese had done previously (00:43:32:00)
o The Japanese let the beaches fill up, which was a great strategy, and the Japanese
return-fire was far more effective because the beach was so congested with men
and equipment (00:44:01:00)
o Another thing that the Japanese had going for them was that they had to whole
island on a grid and they had huge mortars in Mount Suribachi mounted on
railroad tracks which they would roll out from behind doors to bombard the
beaches (00:44:17:00)
 The mortars were about the size of a fifty-five gallon drum and the
Japanese could get about six rounds out of it before they burned up the
tube (00:44:40:00)
 The men on the beach could watch the mortar rounds tumbling through the
air and when one round landed, the ground shock (00:44:52:00)
o About the only place that the men had to hide in were the craters that the sixteen
millimeter shells from the battleships created (00:45:04:00)
 Digging foxholes was difficult because the soft volcanic sand would just
cave in, but the burst of the larger rounds created a crater (00:45:15:00)
 As well, there was no vegetation on the island, particularly on the south
end where Link and his unit had landed (00:45:33:00)
o The men would look for a crater and they got pretty selfish with the craters
because the craters became so crowded, that the men in the craters told men on
the outside to find their own holes, because they feared that their next visitor
would be a mortar round (00:45:39:00)
 The Japanese could sit up on Suribachi and watch what was happening
below and if they saw a dozen men in a bomb crater, they sent them a
mortar round (00:46:03:00)

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While attacking the terraces, Link met one man who was in the initial assault wave and
could only find seven men from his company; all the others were either dead or wounded
(00:46:26:00)
o The Japanese would wait until the Marines reached the third terrace before they
opened fire (00:43:40:00)
o Link told the man that he might as well join up with Link and his unit, although
Link still did not know where his squad leader was because the entire situation
was total chaos to get organize (00:46:54:00)
When Link got off the Higgins boat, he flopped down next to a man named Stan
Wellman, but Wellman was already dead; a sniper had already gotten him and he never
saw any action apart from flopping down behind a mound of volcanic ash (00:47:14:00)
The men did not see any enemy after the initial landing and eventually, their company
sort of grouped together (00:48:23:00)
In another bit of clever strategy, the Japanese had buried fifty-five gallon oil drums like a
spider-trap and they placed a single soldier in the drum with a lid; all the soldier had to do
was barely lift the lid and look out to see what was happening (00:48:311:00)
o The real first serious encounter that Link’s company had was with a couple of
these traps who were picking men off as the company advanced in a line
(00:49:02:00)
o Eventually, the captain called for a Browning Automatic rifleman to put the traps
out of commission (00:49:13:00)
The Japanese bunkers and pillboxes were so well-concealed that the Marines did not
know they were there until the Japanese started shooting (00:49:25:00)
After Link’s company got organized, they started to move forward, although it still
remained pretty much every man for himself under the circumstances (00:49:54:00)
o The men grouped themselves together into small groups and moved towards the
base of Mount Suribachi (00:50:05:00)
o By now, there was a sense of direction and the men had a sergeant who was
outstanding in his leadership (00:50:14:00)
 Eventually, tanks landed on the beach, although they had a difficult time
moving in the volcanic sand to get traction, and this sergeant was walking
behind a tank, talking with the crew and directing their fire (00:50:30:00)
 Link had never seen such an exhibition of command presence or bravery
in his life; the sergeant “made John Wayne look like a girl scout”
(00:50:53:00)
 The sergeant earned a field commission because they were losing so many
officers; at some points, they had corporals and PFCs directing activities
because the casualty rate was so high (00:51:10:00)
Link had reached the base of Mount Suribachi when he was wounded (00:51:56:00)
The night before he was wounded, Link and another man shared a bomb crater for
protection (00:52:01:00)
o The men had to be concerned because the Japanese soldiers were ferocious
fighters and they were great at night infiltration; many Marines went to sleep and
never saw the sun rise the next morning because the Japanese had infiltrated the
camp (00:52:18:00)

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o Japanese soldiers were good at slithering along the ground and dropping into
bomb craters; if the men made the mistake of falling asleep, then their throats
were cut (00:52:48:00)
o The strain of standing guard and keeping his eyes open while the other man in the
crater slept was difficult on Link (00:53:05:00)
o Periodically, someone would send up flairs on a regular sequence from the naval
ships to illuminate the area and the Marines tried to be alert enough that the flair
would catch any shadows or movement, which was also straining (00:53:25:00)
On the day that Link was wounded, when they woke in the morning, the Marines noticed
a pillbox in front of them that they had not noticed the night before; it had been so well
concealed (00:54:07:00)
o The Marines were exchanging fire with the pillbox and in front and to the left of
Link was a knocked out anti-aircraft gun (00:54:23:00)
o To defend the gun, someone had filled fifty-five gallon drums with volcanic ash
and stacked them two high around the gun and pilled ash along the side
(00:54:37:00)
o At the entrance to the anti-aircraft position was a mound of dirt to protect the
entrance and Link ran over to the mound and as he stuck his head around the
corner to decide his next move, two men from the Third platoon piled in behind
him (00:55:00:00)
o Link instinctively pulled his head back to see who it was and in that split second,
one of the Japanese machine gunners in the pillbox fired; had Link not moved his
head, the bullets would have torn his head off (00:55:44:00)
o The men that piled in behind him uttered colorful words about how close the shots
were and the rest of the bullets hit the fifty-five gallon drums (00:56:07:00)
o By this time, Link had started to get use to what they were up against and he lost a
little bit of the fear and anxiety, although not all of it; he did not dwell on what
happened (00:56:24:00)
o Link eventually moved out for the assault on the pillbox and the Japanese loved to
pick-off machine gunners and Browning Automatic riflemen because of the
firepower they represented (00:56:46:00)
o A man came from behind the pillbox and threw a hand grenade at Link; some of
the shrapnel caught him and the Japanese soldier made the mistake of standing
there to admire his work (00:57:09:00)
 As the Japanese soldier stood there, the bazooka man in the platoon laid a
bazooka round right in the soldier’s midsection (00:57:27:00)
Link was bleeding profusely because of a facial wound and he turned around and went
back, looking for the corpsman; he and the corpsman met in a bomb crater and the
corpsman gave him a shot of morphine and tried to patch-up the wound, which he could
not (00:57:46:00)
o The wound was still bleeding badly, so the corpsman gave Link a wad of gauze,
told him to hold it tight to his face and head back to the hospital on the beach
(00:58:16:00)
o As it turned out, the hospital was nothing more than a bomb crater and the doctor
had a wooden box with medical supplies (00:58:26:00)

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o The doctor could not stop the bleeding completely either because he did not have
the facilities or equipment to do the job properly (00:58:36:00)
o He told Link to hold on to a special bandage because a wound on the inside of the
mouth would bleed quite profusely (00:58:52:00)
o The doctor told Link to go down to the beach and hitch a ride on a Higgins boat
out to the hospital ship, where they could better help him (00:59:05:00)
Link went back to the beach, which was a grim scene, with Marines in body-bags waiting
to be buried at sea and all the mangled equipment (00:59:18:00)
o He eventually caught a ride on a Higgins boat, went to the hospital ship and
waited his turn while they took the more seriously wounded first (00:59:38:00)
o After he had cleaned up and examined the would, a doctor told Link that they
thought the shrapnel was imbedded in his jaw bone; the shrapnel had shattered the
roots of one of his molars, so it was like having the feeling before a root canal
(00:59:47:00)
o The doctor could not figure out why Link was having such a pain sensation,
although he told Link that he was a lucky Marine because if the shrapnel piece in
his jaw had been a little higher, he would have lost an eye and if the piece had
been a little bit lower, it would have severed his carotid artery and he would have
been in a body bag on the beach (01:00:09:00)
o After Link received treatment, he went below and passed out; he got aboard ship
and was examined in late morning and he did not wake up until sometime that
evening (01:00:42:00)
While they were there, a pocket [escort] carrier, the U.S.S. Bismarck Sea, was sunk by a
kamikaze pilot at the loss of several hundred sailors and Link’s hospital ship set sail for
the island of Guam because there was a hospital on the island (01:01:03:00)
o As it turned out, the hospital was nothing but a bunch of tents out in the middle of
the jungle and the wounded were kept there for a while (01:01:32:00)
o Link caught the last plane from the island, which was his first plane ride, back to
Pearl Harbor; he left Guam at one o’clock in the morning and they stopped at one
island for breakfast and refueling then at another island for dinner and refueling
before arriving at Pearl Harbor at one o’clock in the morning (01:01:55:00)
He thinks about all the men that died in the engagements in World War II and he cannot
help but wonder, “why him?”; why was he so blessed to have survived? (01:02:42:00)

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                <text>Photograph of Listje Hennipman holding the handles of her bicycle, standing next to a tree in front of a house.</text>
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            <name>Subject</name>
            <description>The topic of the resource</description>
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            <name>Source</name>
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                <text>&lt;a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/719"&gt;Adriana B. and Peter N. Termaat collection (RHC-144)&lt;/a&gt;</text>
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            <name>Rights</name>
            <description>Information about rights held in and over the resource</description>
            <elementTextContainer>
              <elementText elementTextId="810457">
                <text>&lt;a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/NKC/1.0/"&gt;No Known Copyright&lt;/a&gt;</text>
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            <description>The nature or genre of the resource</description>
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                <text>image/jpeg</text>
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            <name>Publisher</name>
            <description>An entity responsible for making the resource available</description>
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                <text>Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives</text>
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              <name>Title</name>
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                  <text>Adriana B. and Peter N. Termaat collection</text>
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              <name>Creator</name>
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                  <text>Termaat, Adriana B. (Schuurman) </text>
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                  <text>Termaat, Peter N.</text>
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              <description>An account of the resource</description>
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                  <text>Collection contains genealogical, personal, and family papers and photographs documenting the lives and interests of Adriana and Peter Termaat. The bulk of the materials are related to family history and genealogical research carried out by the Termaats, including research notes and materials about places in the Netherlands that were significant to the Termaat and Schuurman families, such as the city of Alkmaar.&#13;
&#13;
Other materials in the collection are related to the Termaats' experiences on the eve of and during the Second World War, especially the German occupation of the Netherlands and the Termaats' participation in organized resistance to the Nazis. Also included are materials that document the family's post-war life in the United States, including their public efforts to recognize, commemorate, and honor people and events significant to World War II.</text>
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              <name>Date</name>
              <description>A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource</description>
              <elementTextContainer>
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                  <text>1869 - 2012</text>
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            <element elementId="48">
              <name>Source</name>
              <description>A related resource from which the described resource is derived</description>
              <elementTextContainer>
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                  <text>&lt;a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/719"&gt;Adriana B. and Peter N. Termaat collection, RHC-144&lt;/a&gt;</text>
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              <name>Subject</name>
              <description>The topic of the resource</description>
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                  <text>Netherlands--History--German occupation, 1940-1945 </text>
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                  <text>World War, 1939-1945</text>
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                  <text>World War, 1939-1945 -- Underground movements -- Netherlands</text>
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                  <text>Dutch</text>
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                  <text>Dutch Americans</text>
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              <name>Publisher</name>
              <description>An entity responsible for making the resource available</description>
              <elementTextContainer>
                <elementText elementTextId="810184">
                  <text>Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections &amp; University Archives</text>
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              <name>Identifier</name>
              <description>An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context</description>
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                <elementText elementTextId="810185">
                  <text>RHC-144</text>
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              <name>Format</name>
              <description>The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource</description>
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                  <text>Text</text>
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                  <text>Image</text>
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              <name>Type</name>
              <description>The nature or genre of the resource</description>
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                  <text>application/pdf</text>
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                  <text>image/jpeg</text>
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              </elementTextContainer>
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              <name>Language</name>
              <description>A language of the resource</description>
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                  <text>eng</text>
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                  <text>nl</text>
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      <name>Still Image</name>
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        <description>The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.</description>
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            <name>Identifier</name>
            <description>An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context</description>
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              <elementText elementTextId="810472">
                <text>RHC-144_Termaat_PHOT_1911-Lijsje-Hennipman-recto-img462</text>
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          <element elementId="39">
            <name>Creator</name>
            <description>An entity primarily responsible for making the resource</description>
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              <elementText elementTextId="810473">
                <text>Unknown</text>
              </elementText>
            </elementTextContainer>
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          <element elementId="40">
            <name>Date</name>
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                <text>1911</text>
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            </elementTextContainer>
          </element>
          <element elementId="50">
            <name>Title</name>
            <description>A name given to the resource</description>
            <elementTextContainer>
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                <text>Listje Hennipman, circa 1911</text>
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          <element elementId="41">
            <name>Description</name>
            <description>An account of the resource</description>
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              <elementText elementTextId="810476">
                <text>Portrait photograph of Listje Hennipman, wearing a dark dress with her hand resting on the back of a chair.</text>
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          <element elementId="49">
            <name>Subject</name>
            <description>The topic of the resource</description>
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                <text>Dutch</text>
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                <text>Portrait photographs</text>
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          <element elementId="48">
            <name>Source</name>
            <description>A related resource from which the described resource is derived</description>
            <elementTextContainer>
              <elementText elementTextId="810479">
                <text>&lt;a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/719"&gt;Adriana B. and Peter N. Termaat collection (RHC-144)&lt;/a&gt;</text>
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            </elementTextContainer>
          </element>
          <element elementId="47">
            <name>Rights</name>
            <description>Information about rights held in and over the resource</description>
            <elementTextContainer>
              <elementText elementTextId="810481">
                <text>&lt;a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/NKC/1.0/"&gt;No Known Copyright&lt;/a&gt;</text>
              </elementText>
            </elementTextContainer>
          </element>
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            <name>Type</name>
            <description>The nature or genre of the resource</description>
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            </elementTextContainer>
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            <description>The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource</description>
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                <text>image/jpeg</text>
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            <name>Publisher</name>
            <description>An entity responsible for making the resource available</description>
            <elementTextContainer>
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                <text>Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives</text>
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