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                    <text>The Michigan Philanthropy Oral History Project
Interview Log Sheet
Storyteller: Bruce Fetzer
Interviewer: Mike Gergeley
Date: 10/17/06
Time: 25:01
Facilitator: Elaine D.
Location: CMF- Kalamazoo
(1:00) Bruce is great-nephew of John Fetzer, describes how he helped give birth
to radio- other business accomplishments
(2:20) The John E. Fetzer Institute and Fetzer Memorial Trust- the spiritual
dimension of these organizations
(3:50) How Mike knew J.E. Fetzer, their friendship, describes John spiritualityan inspirational man
(5:40) Mike’s kids, a story about John eating Sunday dinner at Mike’s house
(7:55) Michigan Supreme Court Hall of justice Dedication
(8:20) Book written about John “On a Handshake”
(8:40) Story about John as owner of Detroit Tigers “don’t own the team, he is just
the steward” thought about the public even to his detriment, his goal wasn’t to
accumulate wealth but to benefit men
(10:30) Where John’s commitment to philanthropy started- influenza epidemic
in 1910s
(12:05) Bruce describes the John E. Fetzer Memorial Trust- how its creation is
different from most foundation, they are both trustees
(15:15) Description of John’s appearance so he didn’t look “rich”
(15:34)Mike talks more about John’s spirituality and how it influenced his
business like, he believed in guardian angels, mission of Fetzer Institutw is love
and forgiveness. “How is your spirituality coming?” instead of “How are you?”
(18:55) America’s Agony- Mike reads an excerpt written by John Fetzer in the
‘70s
(20:55) Bruce says John inspired him to live a life of learning and serving
(21:15) Story about Tiger’s game in 1954 (World Series) Mike passed up free
tickets to it and still brings it up

�(23:00) Bruce’s memory of Tiger’s game- how John dealt with being a Public
figure and still having a private life
Track 2
(0:00) More about Memorial Trust- people on the board and their backgrounds
(a diverse group)
(2:10) how knowing John influenced the way Mike views philanthropy and law,
his work led to International Center for the Healing and Law- lawyers as healers
(4:25) more about the Fetzer Institute
(5:45) role of trustees and Mike’s role in starting International Center

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                    <text>The Michigan Philanthropy Oral History Project
Interview Log Sheet
Storyteller: Gerald Smith, Carol Goss
Interviewer: Elaine Davenport
Date: 10/17/06
Time: 42:34
Facilitator: Elaine D.
Location: CMF- Kalamazoo
(1:31) Carol explains her role at Skilman Foundation- their mission
(1:40) Gerald- President of Detroit Youth Foundation
(3:45) Carol’s background in non-profits with young people, Kellogg Initiative
(5:30) Role of the foundation
(5:55) Gerald started the Detroit Youth Foundation, Kellogg Youth Initiative
(7:20) When Gerald came to Detroit, when he and Carol worked together at
Family and Neighborhood Services
(8:30) Carol always has been in the field of social work, describes the model at
F&amp;N Services, how it was different than most agencies- community outreach,
how that work influenced her, Gerald’s experience there
(12:20) Gerald’s big influence- Russ Mawby
(13:20) Gerald’s experience at Settlement House
(14:05) Carol talks about Russ Mawby’s influence on her, his values
(15:50) Carol’s personal background and how it influenced her work in
philanthropy, her mom was a great influence, also influenced her children, her
daughter organized Katrina relief
(18:30) Gerald’s background- influenced by being in YMCA in Cincinnati
(20:15) How Gerald moved from education to marketing/sales to human services
(21:45) Kellogg Youth Initiative- Gerald suggested Carol’s name to work with
them, then she suggested him to take over when she left
(25:15) Gerald talks about Kellogg Youth Initiative and how it led to the spin off
of the Detroit Youth Foundation
(28:00) Changes in community since Kellogg Youth Initiative

�(29:05) Carol talks about Skilman’s grant making strategies, how it has changed
(32:40) Examples of people
(35:45) Gerald talks about Detroit school systems- need to improve
(36:30) Carol: we need people to be leaders, role of philanthropy
(38:25) Why they had recommended each other to Kellogg

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                    <text>The Michigan Philanthropy Oral History Project
Interview Log Sheet
Storyteller: Breannah Alexander
Interviewer: Katelin Griffin
Date: 6/24/07
Time: 39:44
Facilitator: M. Premo
Location: University of Michigan
(0:46) Discuss how long she has been involved and how she became involved in
philanthropy
(4:36) Proactive grant-making
(5:48) Needs assessment
(9:00) Attracted to philanthropy
(10:05) Discuss how its helping and making a difference
(10:34) Philanthropy starts with youth
(11:30) National Youth Service Day, impactful event, power of social responsibility
(12:36) Knowing what to do
(13:23) The importance of moving the money
(14:00) Peer to peer impact of getting others involved
(20:00) Important for the people who are going to inherit the world, to solve its
problems
(21:00) Young people helping young people
(21:20) How this has changed her outlook on life
(23:00) How she sees herself as a volunteer
(26:55) Know applicant forward and back
(31:15) Example of grant manipulation to look for
(33:20) Example of grant recommendation
(35:00) Best grant types, peer support

�(36:30) Discuss her advice to young YACers

�</text>
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                    <text>The Michigan Philanthropy Oral History Project
Interview Log Sheet
Storyteller: James Feeney
Interviewer: Charles Betty Gross
Date: 10/17/06
Time: 38:16
Facilitator: K. Duggins
Location: CMF- Kalamazoo
(0:00) Introductions
(1:16) A bit about how they each got into the line of work they’re into with the
foundation in particular
(5:38) A bit about the people for whom the foundation is named. How they came
to start a foundation
(10:20) Also very generous when they were alive
(10:55) Something they thought that the founders would be proud of
(12:41) J. discuss the money the foundation has donated to the local symphony.
Charles discusses the two scholarship funds
(15:56) J. discusses the others on the board. Struggling with how they will
perpetuate the legacy of the Stubnitz after the original board is gone
(20:07) How they each have been personally affected by the line of work
(25:49) Not as hard to give the money away as they thought it would be
(31:25) James discusses the county in which they live in Michigan
(34:11) What they’re looking forward to with the future
(36:27) If they could do it again they would do it the same
(36:09) Want to leave the legacy of the Stubnitz family

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                <text>Husband and wife Charles and Betty Gross talk with friend James Feeney, about each of their involvement as trustees of the Maurice and Dorothy Stubnitz Foundation, an independent foundation in Adrian, Michigan, supporting causes like the local symphony. They also discuss their hopes for the foundation's future.</text>
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                    <text>Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
World War II and the Korean War Era
Peter Haven (as told by wife Carol and daughter Eloise)

(36:40)
Introduction (00:20)




Carol Haven worked for Gordon Food Service and she also worked at a Sonoco Station.
She graduated from High School in 1933.
After high school, she had relatives that worked at the Grand Rapids Brass Company and
she was able to work there running a drill press. She worked there until she was married,
on December 7, 1940. (02:16)

China (2:20)











Her husband was in the service at the time, serving in China. His sister-in-law was
Carol’s Sunday school teacher and that is how they were introduced.
Her husband, Peter, was in the Army and in China from 1936 – March 4, 1938 and served
as a library clerk for the 15th Infantry. (3:10)
In China he was stationed at Kinjin
One story that was relayed to his daughter, Eloise, fifty years later was that her father and
his friend were sitting on the bank of a river and a group of Japanese soldiers had
captured a little Chinese girl, gang raped her and then beheaded her. They proceeded to
throw her body in the river.
The US soldiers loved the Chinese, and Peter was a translator.
One job he did was to help officiate weddings and verify who was who.
Pictures that Peter had were of bodies stacked up, the invasion, and how the Japanese
used the Chinese for bayonet practice, and other atrocities. (5:32)
When he was learning Chinese, he approached a farmer and tried to say “may we have
your wife do our laundry?” but after he said “may we have your wife” he couldn’t find
the page that told him how to finish it and the farmer came at them with a hoe.
He made a comment about what war does to you after seeing all the bodies and death.
(6:25)

Stateside (6:30)







After leaving China in 1938, the 15th Infantry was stationed at Fort Lewis, Washington.
At the end of his four year enlistment in 1938, he returned home to Michigan.
Shortly after he got home, Carol met him.
He was working at a car place somewhere at the time.
They knew each other for about two years before they got married. (7:45)
In 1940 they were married, and Peter was paying close attention to world events in
Europe and in China.

�

Peter remained in the reserves, and after a week of marriage, he was recalled to active
duty.

Recalled to Active Duty (9:00)










He was sent to Fort Custer, and remained there for some time.
From there, he was sent to Fort Hood, Texas. (9:46)
Carol joined him there in 1943 and it was her first time on a long train ride.
In Texas, Peter was working as Military Police at the Provost Marshal'ss Office.
They had a son born that was the result of a three day pass. (11:50)
Life in Grand Rapids stayed relatively the same, with some rationing being implemented.
They did not have much trouble getting things that they needed even with the rationing
going on. (13:44)
When Pearl Harbor was attacked, they were at a restaurant eating out, celebrating their
wedding anniversary.
When Peter had to leave, Bishop's Furniture Company, stored their furniture for five
years while they were away for free. (15:25)

Texas (15:50)







Carol brought her son and he really enjoyed the train ride.
They got an apartment on base, and she put borax around the windows and doors to keep
out the cockroaches.
At the time, Peter was a staff sergeant.
During the day, Carol would attend services for the families and got together with other
wives and families. (17:56)
There was a little town off base, which they went to.
At the grocery store the prices were higher for soldiers than for the locals.

Europe (19:13)










Peter was eventually shipped out to Europe, and Carol went back to Grand Rapids.
She wrote him a letter everyday. He wrote when he could.
His letters were censored by the military, and they had large lines that were blanked out.
He wrote about his family and his son. He told a story that he was looking at the water,
and that was censored. (21:50)
Peter was serving with the quartermaster and by Normandy; he talked about digging a
foxhole.
The family has about three volumes of V-mail that he had sent.
Peter said that he loved the people in England. (23:10)
He also used to give part of his c-rations away, such as his cigarettes.
Peter was in Europe until around 1945, when there was a B-17 that crashed into the
Empire State Building, and Carol feared that Peter was on it. He was still in Europe.
(25:05)

Back to the States (25:30)

� Once home, Peter eventually got a job at General Motors.
 Peter remained in the inactive reserves, and was recalled for Korea.
Korean War (27:14)




He was stationed at Fort Benjamin Harrison in Indiana.
Back home, Carol remained in Grand Rapids at their apartment.
His family believes that he worked as a troop handler of some kind, helping new recruits
get to their proper duty stations.

After the Wars (29:00)







Peter loved fishing, but his friends wanted him to go hunting, but he said “I heard enough
gunfire in Europe, I don’t want to hear it here at home”.
One story that was later revealed happened back in China when a rickshaw driver was
being attacked by three Japanese soldiers and he broke off a tree branch and beat the
Japanese. (30:55)
The next day, a Japanese officer claimed that his Japanese soldiers were attacked by six
American soldiers, unprovoked. No record has been found of the incident. (32:18)
Peter may have been the first reservist called into duty from Grand Rapids.
While her father was away, Eloise remembers the old record player that her father bought
at the PX, they used to listen to old radio programs such as Boston Blackie, Green Door,
The Stranger, The Shadow, before they had television. (34:22)
Carol recalls that her son celebrated his first Christmas in Texas; the Army provided a
meal for the families in the PX.

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                    <text>Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project
Cornelius Ringnalda &amp; Richard Herrema
(00:42:27)
(00:30) Background information
•
•
•
•
•
•

Richard was born in Michigan in the early twenties and grew up in Grand Rapids
He worked on his father’s farm and was drafted into the service after high school
Because he worked on a farm, he was given the choice of deferment, but went into the
service right away because his friend had done so also
Cornelius was born in Grand rapids, MI
His father was a carpenter and Cornelius left school when he was 16 years old to work
with his father
He was later drafted into the military

(3:30) Training
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•

Cornelius was inducted in Chicago and was then sent to Camp Fanning in Texas
He was in Texas for 6 months where they mostly did a lot of drilling and marching
Richard was inducted in Illinois and began infantry training in Arkansas for 14 weeks
He then volunteered for the Air Force Cadet program and was sent to Florida
He went to classes at a college in Ohio for 4 months, working on math, history, English
The classes were all very hard and they also had to work on flight training
He was later sent to Texas for classification and then to armament school in Colorado
Richard became a gunner with a B-29 outfit and was assigned to a crew in California

(11:20) Overseas
•
•
•
•
•
•

Richard was sent to the South Pacific from Washington in January of 1945
Cornelius had been given a 10 day furlough after basic training before he was sent into
the Pacific
They stopped in Hawaii and then Saipan before landing in Okinawa to replace other
troops
Many men had been lost and it was the fourth day into the invasion
Cornelius was working in Okinawa for 4 weeks and thought it was a beautiful island
He had been assigned to the 383rd Infantry Regiment, but it always seemed like no one
had any idea of what was going on

(20:20) Richard’s Trip Overseas

�•
•
•
•
•
•
•

Richard had flown over the Pacific on a civilian air craft
They landed in New Guinea and stayed there for about 30 days
They were flying from New Guinea and bombing Japanese depots and other areas where
they were hiding in the hills
He was assigned to the 13th Air Force and sent to the Philippines
They were staying in tents with Navy Seabees
There were many civilians living in the surrounding hills of their base and they were all
quite primitive
They flew missions at least once a week and Richard had flown on 21 missions altogether

(27:50) Cornelius is Wounded
•
•
•
•
•

Cornelius had been in Okinawa for about 2 weeks when they were able to secure the area
from a large hill
He had left camp to go fill up his canteen when he and others were attacked and he was
shot in the arm
A friend helped him back to camp, but it took quite a while because everyone had
declared them MIA
Cornelius was sent to an aid station and then taken by plane to a hospital in Guam where
he stayed for 2 weeks
He was later sent to a hospital in Colorado and was there when the war ended

(34:45) The End of the War
•
•
•
•

Richard had been in the Philippines when the war ended
Everyone was preparing to go home and bring all the equipment back
They ended up waiting there for about two months with nothing to do and ended up
taking a liberty ship back to San Francisco
He was back in Chicago on Christmas day and then took about three months off before
going back to work

�</text>
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Interview Log Sheet
Storyteller: Carrie Pickett-Erway
Interviewer: Deborah Higgins
Date: 10/16/06
Time: 41:32
Facilitator- Nick Pumilia
Location: CMF- Kalamazoo
(0:50) Describes how she came to philanthropy work, introduced to someone at Kellogg
Foundation, had an internship, shifted to Kalamazoo Community Foundation and
eventually hired to permanent staff
(3:00) Discusses where she has drawn inspiration for her philanthropic work- Bill
Strickland from Pittsburg
(4:45) Discusses doing work in Kalamazoo with urban communities, working on the
“front line” in the “real world”
(9:20) Describes how working in philanthropy has influenced her understanding of and
relation to the world and her community
(13:30) Fetzer Institute, discusses a disconnect between family and friends outside of
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(15:45) Discusses surprises she has encountered in work of philanthropy. Having to turn
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(20:15) Discusses how she copes with difficulties and stress of work
(21:30) Discusses what she would have done differently in her career in philanthropy
(23:00) Describes difference between grant-making and community initiatives. The role
of the Kalamazoo Community Foundation in community initiative work
(28:00) Most challenging and pride filled work that she has been involved with.
Challenge Day- initiative to remove bullying from school- program based out of
California
(32:00) “How did you first hear about the Challenge Day program?” She did work in
Bangor High School outside of Kalamazoo County, Michigan. Hopes to do Challenge
Day program in every school in Kalamazoo County
(37:00) Carrie describes what she learned as a facilitator at a Challenge Day in a local
school

�(38:00) Excited to bring stories of Challenge Day experience to local donors
(40:00) Deborah talks about what she hopes is ahead for her future in philanthropy
work

�</text>
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                    <text>The Michigan Philanthropy Oral History Project
Interview Log Sheet
Storyteller: Rob Rowe
Interviewer: Richard Hughey
Date: 10/17/06
Time: 40:27
Facilitator: K. Duggins
Location: CMF- Kalamazoo
(0:00) Introductions
(1:28) Bob gives his background with music education performance and his
projects, playing music for the elderly in nursing homes. Renaissance Enterprise,
discusses the meaning in doing this type of work
(8:02) Bob’s parents and grandparents influenced his character by always
working with the interest of the underdog, working w/ elderly is hard work with
physical, emotional and spiritual ways
(10:50) The range of artists in Renaissance Enterprise including Gospel, Country,
R&amp;B. Elderly also participated via karaoke
(12:46) Discuss the process of bringing art to people who won’t or can’t come to
the art. Discuss the benefits of the elderly participating with the project,
increased cognitive ability, health benefits
(16:31) Bob’s trouble in funding his work, overcoming challenges that poses in
obtaining funding for the project. Renaissance was awarded a Mother Teresa
Award for their innovative work. In 1987 he wrote a letter to Mother Teresa and
got a handwritten letter back
(22:00) Richard discusses the importance of (?) the good happening in the
community and how it’s under reported in the mainstream media. Bob discusses
the technological evidence we’ve made this generation. Richard discusses how art
is as important as technology. How the art (?) for so many things, spiritual,
physical
(32:51) What needs to be offered to children, artistically speaking, how their
talents need to be nurtured
(34:54) Discusses bringing back spirit to the lives of youth via the arts
(36:49) Bob discusses some of the success of the Renaissance so far.
(39:00) Comments on the additional funding that is needed for the Renaissance
(40:00) Closing

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                <text>Rick Hughey, Jr., Executive Vice President/CEO of the Irving S. Gilmore Foundation in Kalamazoo, Michigan talks with grantee Bob Rowe, a musician from Renaissance Enterprises, about Bob's transformative work of bringing gospel, country and R&amp;B music into nursing homes.</text>
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                    <text>The Michigan Philanthropy Oral History Project
Interview Log Sheet
Storyteller: Chris T. Christ
Interviewer: Brenda L Hunt
Date: 10/27/08
Time:
Facilitator: Naomi Greene
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
(0:00) Introductions of Brenda and Chris
(0:43) Brenda asks how Christ became involved in philanthropy; Chris talks about his
mother; working for the March of Dimes; Exchange Club Dental Fund; Battle Creek
(3:11) Chris talks about working for the Kellogg Foundation
(3:58) Chris talks about working for the Kendall Foundation; Battle Creek Community
Foundation
(5:29) Chris talks about helping others; meeting with others and organizations who help
people. Chris talks about his wife’s involvement with philanthropy
(7:56) Brenda asks him about the most significant achievement Chris has made; Chris
talks about working t bring a senior residence center. He remembers bringing two
hospitals together
(11:03) Chris talks about the Catholic/Protestant hospital merger in Battle Creek, MI
(12:36) Brenda asks “What was the most significant thing you saw on the board of the
Kellogg Foundation?” Chris talks about allowing for spouses to travel with the trustees,
meeting people overseas’ Nelson Mandela, Bishop Tutu
(15:18) Chris remembers visiting the prison Nelson Mandela was incarcerated in, South
Africa
(16:55) Brenda asks Chris about his career as an attorney and helping people plan
estates; Chris talks about working with people who want to use their estate for
philanthropic purposes
(19:12) Chris talks about his legacy through his work
(19:49) Chris talks about what he would do if he had his own foundation, helping youth,
Community foundations dyslexia
(21:45) Chris talks about wanting to go on vacation with his family; “sharing the wealth”

�(22:59) Chris talks about one of his mentors; becoming a trustee in the Kellogg
Foundation
(24:49) Chris talks about why he loves working for the Kellogg Foundation; Salzburg
Seminar
(26:46) He talks about his parents; immigrating from Greece, becoming American

�</text>
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                <text>Brenda L. Hunt, President &amp; CEO, Battle Creek Community Foundation (BCCF), talks with her good friend and foundation attorney Chris T. Christ about his involvement in philanthropy working with BCCF, the Kendall Foundation and the W.K. Kellogg Foundation; what he hopes to leave as his legacy; and his Greek heritage.</text>
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            </elementTextContainer>
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                    <text>1

Grand Valley State University Special Collections
Kent County Oral History collections, RHC-23
Mr. and Mrs. George (Helen) Jackoboice
Interviewed November 5, 1974
Edited and indexed by Don Bryant, 2010-bryant@wellswooster.com
Tape # 52 (1:33:37)
Biographical Information
George Adolphe Jackoboice was born 17 June 1908, the son of Edward J. Jackoboice and Helen
Matilda Hake. George was married to Helen Gast about 1937. George passed away 12 January
1987 in Grand Rapids and is buried at Mt. Calvary Cemetery. He was chairman of Monarch
Hydraulics, Inc. Besides three sons and their families, George was survived by his wife, Helen.
Helen Gast was born 7 August 1910 in Grand Rapids and was the daughter of Peter B. Gast and
Emily Alt. Helen died 31 December 2008 in Grand Rapids at the age of 98 years. Helen‟s father,
Peter Gast was born in Westphalia, Michigan in 1874, the son of Bernard and Teressa (Platte)
Gast. Helen‟s mother, Emily Alt was born in Grand Rapids about 1875, the daughter of Nicholas
Alt. The parents were married in Grand Rapids on 29 June 1899.
____________
Interviewer: But you were related to Mrs. Hake‟s family?
George: Yes.
Is it your grand, your mother or was…

Interviewer:
George: My?
Interviewer:

How‟s that?

George: Clara Voigt Hake, and I differentiate because I also had a Clara Jackoboice, who was an
aunt. But Clara Voigt was married to my mother‟s brother.
Interviewer: Yes.
George:
Interviewer:

Doctor William F. Hake.
Yes.

George:
That‟s the background, and but as families we had been well acquainted of course
for several generations. Not…
Interviewer:
George:

And you‟re an old Grand Rapids family too, right?
Yes, we are.

�2

Interviewer:

Is it your daughter-in-law, Barbara Jackoboice, who teaches French?

Both George and Helen: Yes.
Helen:

That‟s Tom‟s wife.
I have a friend who‟s taking French lessons from her.

Interviewer:
Helen:

Oh, really.

Interviewer:
Yes, it‟s Peggy Strong and she‟s doing a Smith‟s Club tour of France this year
and she‟s brushing up on conversational French…
Helen:

Oh, I see.

Interviewer: …with Barbara, yes.
George:

Barbara‟s very proficient.

Helen:

Oh, she‟s lovely, very lovely.

George:

She graduated from Stanford but spent a year in Paris at the Sorbonne.

Interviewer:

So she speaks French like French people.
Oh, yes fluently. She lived with a French family when she was…

George:

Interviewer:
Well, that‟s nice. You‟re younger than any of the Hake brothers though, aren‟t
you or the Voigt brothers?
George:
Helen:

Oh, yes.
They were really friends of the family.

George:

My family. My mother and my father.

Interviewer:
George:

I was going to say that you, that they would be.

Oh, another generation, oh yes.

Interviewer:
Another generation removed from you. You remember any of them though? The
Hakes, Voigts?
Interviewer:
George:

Yes, did you know them well?
Knew them all.

Interviewer: Yes. Yes, because we‟d gotten in some interesting things. I had a talk last week to
a gal who‟s a secretary in the Voigt mills, you know?

�3

Helen:

Yes.
She worked for Frank mostly. And…

Interviewer:

That‟s a long time ago.

George:
Interviewer:
George:

Yes. Oh, this is right after the First World War
Yes. Cause he has been dead for years.

Interviewer:
Helen:

Who was that?

Interviewer:
Helen:

Yes.

Her name was Mildred Schulz and …

Did you know her, George?

George:
No, but Mary Orth, worked over there for years and years. Unfortunately, now Mary
Orth, if she were alive would tell you an awful lot.
Helen:

She‟s gone.

Interviewer:
Yes, she‟s well, this Miss Schulz said she couldn‟t remember but one person
that she thought worked in the offices over there that might still be alive, besides herself. And
she‟s just a pretty old lady. Her memory wasn‟t good on dates when things had happen. She was
in think well up in her eighties. And it was funny cause the week before I talked to a Mrs.
McLachlan who was the daughter of the man, who built the house. A man named Jungbaecker,
John Jungbaecker. And I think he built for the Hake family.
George:
Hotel.
Interviewer:
George:
Interviewer:

Yes. I think he also built, I‟m guessing, but I think, he also built the old Charlevoix

Oh, did he?
Where the Olds Manor is now, my family once owned.
Oh, I didn‟t know that.

George:
Well, originally it was known as the Rasch House way back in early history. Frances
Rasch is my grandmother. And then the Rasch House was replaced by a hotel called the
Clarendon. And then the Clarendon had a name change and was called the Charlevoix. Because a
man by the name of Bedford, who had the island house in Charlevoix, had a second operation in
Grand Rapids and that was the Charlevoix Hotel. We did not operate the hotel. We owned the
building and the land and leased it to Bedford. Bedford incidentally was one of the two men
who killed, murdered King Strang. Remember the story of…?

�4

Interviewer:

Yes, Bedford was ….

George:
Interviewer:
George:
Helen:

Yes, I remember very well. We always said he was so dapper in his youth.
He was.

Interviewer:

Are you also a native of Grand Rapids?

Yes, my maiden name was Gast. So Peter was my father.

Interviewer:
George:
Helen:

One of the better known murder cases around here.
You remember old Bedford?

George:

Helen:

Oh yes, I remember reading that, in the old papers.

Oh, yes. A well known family.
Gast Motor Sales.

My mother was an Alt.

Interviewer:

Well, that‟s interesting. You both have such deep roots.

George:
Well, yes, you see this is all interwoven traditionally and historically with originally
the west side. Of course…
Interviewer:
George:
there.

Now was your family a west side family originally?
Originally except my mother. She was born on the hill up on Ransom &amp; Crescent

Interviewer:

Oh, yes, right on top of it.

George:
You see her maiden name was H-A- K-E; which is the maiden name or which is the
name of her brother who married Clara Voigt. The, I‟m almost tempted…
Interviewer:
George:

That parking lot occupies the site now.

Interviewer:
George:
Helen:

Ransom &amp; Crescent would be where the hospital was.

Yes.
It‟s a… I have, excuse me. [George leaves to retrieve some items]

This must be interesting work for you.

Interviewer:
It‟s fun for me. I came here about four years ago and part, I was then in the
process of trying to get my master‟s degree which I‟ve since given up on because I was working

�5

out of an Ohio university. I was too far along and couldn‟t transfer enough credits. But in the
course of doing some work. I did a lot of research into early Michigan history. I got just
fascinated with Grand Rapids so I consequently took a course at Michigan history and wrote a
paper on Grand Rapids „cause I think it‟s so fascinating.
Helen:

Well, how wonderful.
Well, it‟s just fascinating.

Interviewer:
Helen:

Oh, I‟d love to read it.

Interviewer:
Well, the interesting part of it was trying to explain how Grand Rapids came to
be here, because it didn‟t really have all the natural advantages of some of the other cities. And
yet it got to be the second biggest city in the state. And I worked on the, trying to explain why.
[George returns into the room]
George:
This was a program on the occasion of my grandfather and grandmother‟s Fiftieth
wedding anniversary.
Interviewer:
George:

Oh, and this would be William Hake?
And this is the picture when they were married.

Interviewer:

Yes, isn‟t that nice?
And then as you turn the pages you‟ll, that‟s when they were on their Fiftieth

George:

Isn‟t that beautiful? They were two fine looking people.

Interviewer:
George:

Yes, they were.

Interviewer:
Helen:

Is she in the portrait over the mantel?

Yes.

Interviewer:
I thought, but, that was taken at a younger age than this but she‟s a very
handsome woman. Oh, this tells the family history then.
George:

Yes, pretty much till that time.

Interviewer: And he also was German background.
George:

Oh, yes.

Interviewer: I wasn‟t sure what the name Hake was.

�6

George:
He came from a little town called Dunschede, which is northwest of Cologne
[Germany].
Interviewer:
George:

Have you been back there?

Oh, yes.

Interviewer:

Chased down your family?

George:
Yes, we go to Europe quite often. Then, she was born in Altensteig in the Black
Forest, Germany, which is near Freiburg.
Interviewer:
Helen:

You mentioned the home is shown somewhere there too, a picture.

Such a pretty old home.

Interviewer:
Helen:

She had, they had fifteen children.

Interviewer:
George:

Which one was your mother?
My mother was Matilda, Helen Matilda.

Interviewer:
George:

Matilda. She was one of the younger children.
Yes, she was

Interviewer:
George:

She was quite a bit younger than Doctor Hake, wasn‟t she?
Yes, but they were very close.

Interviewer:
George:
Helen:

Oh, how many children there were?

Yes, oh, isn‟t this neat?
Course everything.

You must tell about his love for the, not having any children of their own…

George:
Doctor Hake graduated, I believe from the University of Michigan (I‟ll have to
check that). And they never had a family of their own. That is the Doctor and Clara, but he was,
he offered his services free, as long as he lived, to St. John‟s Home to the villa, the Sisters of the
Good Shepherd which is now Villa Maria. The Sisters of the Poor. And he did all the…
Interviewer:

…did all their medical for free - for the children.

Interviewer: Gee, that was remarkable.

�7

George:
He did all that as long as he lived. He was a quite charitable man. I think that
probably folly for me to presume, but I would believe that he was disappointed he didn‟t have a
family.
Interviewer:
Yes, cause in those days people had pretty large families. Yes and the Voigts
were large family too originally.
Interviewer:
That‟s right. Well, you now once in a while when we‟re working around the
Voigt house we pick up the, pick up a story that somehow the family, the mother and father
didn‟t approve of the children getting married. And we have heard yes and no on that, from
different people. Do you have any knowledge of how they felt about that?
George:
other.
Interviewer:
George:

I know that, I believe Frank whom you mentioned never married and I forget the
Carl was married there for awhile, wasn‟t he?
Well, you never knew much about that was always kind of a…

Interviewer:
That‟s an interesting thing, because I met this little old ninety-one-year old that
remembers his wife as being very beautiful.
George:
Interviewer:
George:
Interviewer:
George:

And Ralph never married.
No, I know that.
That isn‟t to say they probably on occasion didn‟t have an affair, but I don‟t know.
But they never officialized it.
No, no no.

Interviewer:
Never settled down and had a family. That‟s interesting. This house that your,
that shows here, now where was this house?
George:
Interviewer:
George:
Interviewer:
George:
Interviewer:
George:

That‟s where the parking lot of the Butterworth Hospital.
This is Ransom and Crescent?
Yes, that‟s where it is now. There‟s nothing left.
There‟s nothing left of it. And that‟s a beautiful house.
Yes, it was a large, large grounds there.
It must kill you to see what happens to some of the beautiful old houses.
Yes,

�8

Helen:

It really does.

Interviewer:

It‟s a nice thing to have that.

George:
The others, of course, the doctor and Clara went to Europe, I don‟t know on how
many different visits, but I know that, see he was Catholic, she was not.
Interviewer:
George:
Interviewer:
George:
Interviewer:
George:
Interviewer:
George:

Yes, she was an Episcopalian.
She was buried in St. Mark‟s church, absolutely.
She also had very friendly relationships with the Catholic Church.
Oh, yes. That‟s right.
„Because she was widowed I understand and did a lot of things for them.
Yes, she was a, you obviously never knew her.
No, no.
Of course, Helen I think was her favorite in-laws.

Helen:
She was very, very nice to me. I remember the time that my engagement was going to
be announced and my sister had a formal tea for me. So I invited, of course, the aunts that were
living and I didn‟t know her but she did come to the tea. And I always remember she sent me
just a beautiful bouquet of flowers and a corsage. She wanted to wear that day because…
Interviewer:

Wasn‟t that sweet?

Helen:
I thought that it was very sweet. And so on every, we were married on the seventeenth
of June and so on every seventeenth of June, every anniversary, I had a phone call at eight
o‟clock in the morning saying, “Hello.” She had a very deep voice, she‟d say, “Do you know
who this is? This is your Aunt Clara wishing you a happy anniversary.” Well, I thought it was
very sweet. I always have very nice memories of her because she was so nice to me. And on
various occasions we would be at a restaurant, maybe at the Pen Club or at the Schnitzlebank and
a drink would be set before us. Now maybe we didn‟t see her with her brothers in the corner and
it would be compliments of the Voigts.
Interviewer: Wasn‟t that nice?
Helen: So that‟s my little story as an in-law.
Interviewer:

Oh, that‟s a really nice one.

George:
You see the, we‟ve been in the machinery business in Grand Rapids for a hundred
and eighteen years.

�9

Interviewer:

What firm are you?

George:
Monarch Road Machinery Company. Originally it was, or prior to the Monarch
Road Machinery it was known as the West Side Iron Works. And before that it was know under
my grandfather‟s name, Joseph Jackoboice. Well. The building….
Interviewer:
George:

He was French, originally
No, he was not.

Interviewer:

He‟s not?

Interviewer:

I was just guessing.

George:
Well, that‟s an interesting story. I won‟t be too long at it, but actually first of all my
grandmother Hake came from Altensteig, my grandmother Rasch came from Breisgau and my
grandfather came from Westphalia. But my grandfather Jackoboice came from a border city
which was then Duchy of Warsaw and but was adjacent as a border city to the kingdom of
Prussia. Actually, officially he was no, he was born according to unconfirmed reports it‟s hard to
get any verification because the records have been in such disarray, some of them were bombed
out in World War Two. He was actually born in Poland.
Interviewer:

Was he born in the Corridor, the Polish Corridor?

George:
No, no it was further south. It was in that area well, Bohemia was in there and so on.
Like many of the old families in town here, the Rasches or the Herpolsheimers for example,
came from what generally is known as Bohemia and so on. And he came to this country alone.
He came when there were less than seven thousand people of his nationality in this country.
Interviewer:
George:

What year was that?

Eighteen fifty-two.

Interviewer:

Yes, he was an early arrival.

George:
He came with an education and he came with money. And he never spoke of his past.
He never corresponded. He was a very, very successful man but he lived, he had good health
until he died. Never looked back.
Interviewer:
George:
Interviewer:
George:

Did he drop, did he drop his accent and come, make an effort to learn English.
Oh, he spoke English beautifully.
He never spoke in his native language?
I don‟t know. „Cause he was born before I.

�10

Helen:

He spoke in German; we never knew it, until about a few years ago.

George:
My father and my Aunt Clara Jackoboice, now that‟s Clara the other Clara, spoke
beautiful German. They wrote the old German script. But why this man came here alone he
obviously didn‟t come over because of any military problem because he was past that age, he as I
say came with an education, because he came with money.
Interviewer:

Maybe investment.

George:
Well, at the time, at the time that people came in eighteen fifty-two, in the eighteen
fifties, in general, they came for political reasons, not for economic reasons.
Interviewer:
George:

That would be before Bismarck, wouldn‟t it?
Yes, it was after Metternich.

Interviewer:

That‟s right, just after Metternich.

George:
The Congress of Vienna. He was born in eighteen twenty-four. But it‟s kind of a
mystery as to why; he was the first, absolutely the first of his nationality to be in Grand Rapids one of the very first to be in the United States. Well, anyway that‟s a long and different story.
But…
Interviewer:
George:

And he came and set up immediately than as a…
In business, yes. He was very, very successful and the business continues now.

Interviewer:

Under the same family.

George:
Same family. But the building you see on this started with the Voigts, the building
you see on the west side of the river which is red and white is called the old German
Schoolhouse, was his factory. It wasn‟t his first, it was his fourth.
Helen:

When that‟s all lit up at night. George:

Interviewer:
George:
Interviewer:
George:
Interviewer:
George:
Interviewer:

Yes.

Oh, yes.
You see it from the Civic Auditorium.
And that was your family‟s original or fourth one?
It still is. We still own it.
You still own it.
We illuminate it at night and ….
Did you keep it as a historic…?

�11

George:
Yes, it‟s on the roster of the city‟s historic buildings, officially, declared by the city
commissioner about a year ago. And, but right across the street were the two old Star Mills
which were also owned by the Voigts. Now the mills that…
Interviewer:

Was the Crescent Mill very far from the Star Mill?

George:
It was three blocks away, three blocks north of the Star Mills. I mean the Crescent
Mills were at Pearl Street and the Star Mills were near Bridge Street. The Star Mills were kind of
a secondary manufacturing...
Interviewer:
George:

The Crescent Mill was the big operation.
Yes, yes.

Interviewer:
And that was a rolling mill for, first row, I mean they took up rolling mill rather
than grindstone.
George:
Well, I don‟t know, possibly they had. But they were of course originally you know
they were partners with Herpolsheimers, the store, you‟ve heard that, of course. Do you know
Bill Hardy in town here?
Interviewer: No, I don‟t.
George:

Well, Bill was a Herpolsheimer.

Interviewer: Is that why they have the Hardy-Herpolsheimer‟s Store at Kalamazoo?
George:

Yes, well I guess part of the reason.

Interviewer: That‟s part of the reason?
George:
But, the Voigts of course with my father well his company always did all the
millwright work, in the mills. So there was a strong business relation between the Voigts and
ourselves, as well as family relationship.
Interviewer: Now you made machine too machinery.
George:
Oh, yes. We were manufacturers, yes but we also used to do they used to build
steam engines and things saw-mill machinery log-mill machinery. Band saws, rip saws. Now
we‟re entirely power hydraulic controls and systems. Actually we don‟t make any road
machinery. It‟s all sophisticated devices for operating other components on other people‟s
products and so on.
Interviewer:

Someone starts a machine you have things in there that keep it going.

�12

George:
Yes, for example this is farfetched but in Disneyland in Florida for example, I bet
you we must have twenty-five to fifty of our controls, that help control the automation. And
they‟re all hidden you never see them.
Interviewer: So you‟re actually in the systems controls business now rather than the fabrication
of metals.
George:
Yes, we (???) it‟s all very much involved in some oil hydraulics or in a segment of
it. So, but anyway, because of that „across the street‟ connection and „three blocks away‟
connection, why the Voigts of the Voigt people were in our place all the time. Back in those days
of course more things were done by horse and buggy and on foot that now as and it was very
informal. And the Leitelts, I don‟t know if you‟ve ever heard that name?
Interviewer: No, I haven‟t.
George: But Adolph Leitelt and my father were very close friends. Well, years once upon a
year, there was a, my father and his company had always done most of the major maintenance.
Well in spite of this close family tie and also the relationship with the Leitelts, that was Adolph
Leitelt„s iron works which was across the river. And the Voigt senior told my father, my dad tells
this story, he says Ed, I want you to know take care of this boiler problem so he had his crew
over there Monday morning. But prior to the arrival of my father‟s people Leitelt‟s people were
there. And there was quite a who does, who does this job? And they were all close friends, you
know.
Interviewer: Competitive.
George: So my dad just withdrew but they, the mills and their people always had a friendly
habit, anytime they wanted a little job done, they‟d come to my father‟s place and so he‟d say oh
go ahead and use the machinery and forget it. Well, after this happened they came over and he
said, “Fellows, I‟m sorry but why don‟t you go to Leitelts to have that.” Well, that brought out
the Voigts in their hiding and the thing came out in the open. And Dad said, “Listen, Voigt
senior told me explicitly to take care of this, and I did. But when I arrived, Adolf Leitelt‟s crew
were there.” So and then they went on to explain Voigt senior well, he said, “Ed, I‟m awfully
sorry but I told you this in full sincerity and my sons not knowing what I had done called Adolph
Leitelt.” He said, “So it‟s the tempest of the teapot.” It was all straightened out they laughed
about it, you know. But…
Interviewer: Did any of the social relations in among the families, was the fact that you were all
Germans and German in background a strong factor in the fact that you all got along so well.
George:

I think so.

Interviewer: They tended to have feelings about it.

�13

George:
They thought quite a bit alike. Clara Voigt, and I have to be historically honest,
could be well, a little bit dramatic and little bit volatile at times you know. And maybe you sense
that.
Interviewer: She was sort of, the people I‟ve known that talked to that remembered her at all,
remember her [as] a certain grand dame.
George:

Yes, she was.

Interviewer:

A grand old lady.

Helen:
She wore the wide black-belted band with the big diamond, or she had a lot of big
diamonds that she wore. She was a small lady, I mean a short lady and she always was all
dressed up.
George:
She, I know every, my Grandfather Hake lived to be ninety-four and he was a very,
very active, alert vital man right up to the day he died, he was only sick a week, died of
pneumonia and that was it. But until his ninety-third year he‟d swim in Lake Michigan and I
don‟t mean paddle around to his knees, he‟d really swim. And he would always a very tall, very
erect man. And he would always walk down to St. Mary‟s Church although he also belonged to
St. Andrews Cathedral, and he was, he retired after all these children. He retired in his sixties and
lived in a grand manner until he died. But in this process of living, I would say for his time the
good life he would have his children come up there practically every week. There were always
one of the sons or daughters up there visiting. And he loved company. He would never associate
with old people he says that makes me old; he wanted to be with young people. And so
practically every Sunday night during the winter months there‟s be some family up there and
invariably they‟d play cards. He loved to play Hearts or Poker. And when they were playing,
why it was always the Voigts here and the Hakes here and they‟re all gunning for each other.
They really had a rather…
Interviewer: Now, we have some kind of information. And now I can‟t remember who gave it
to us, that when they played cards they played cards in a special room upstairs, in the Voigt
house. They didn‟t play downstairs, in the house, that they used an upstairs back room and that
they used to listen to the radio and play cards.
George:

That must have been later in years.

Interviewer: In later years, yes. And we kind of got the feeling that old Mr. Hake err, or old Mr.
Voigt ran that family with rather a strong…..
George: He did. From what I‟d always heard. I never knew the father, I did know Ralph and
Carl, quite well, and of course my Aunt.
Interviewer: Well even Ralph and Carl were enough older than you were.

�14

George: Oh, yes.
Interviewer: Be in the next generation.
George:
To get back, you see years ago when their offices were down on Pearl Street, the big
mill. But they always had the old, the remnants of the old horse barn. And so they would park
their car there and Ralph generally would walk. You could always tell when Ralph and Carl
weren‟t getting along even though they lived in the same house, if they rode together to the
parking place three blocks up they were friends. But if Ralph, who generally always drove
walked back alone, they probably had some misunderstanding. Now that doesn‟t mean they were
ever mad for very long.
Interviewer: No, but natural family things.
George: Yeah, that‟s right.
Interviewer: Well, I always heard they only ever owned one car.
George:

I‟ve never known them to own two.

Interviewer: Yes, even though the two were grown businessmen, they operated out of one car.
George:

Well, typical of that, you know Carl until he died wore button shoes.

Interviewer:

Oh, no.

George: Oh, sure. He always wore button shoes.
Interviewer: A real modern.
Helen: He‟d always say if we met him, remember the day we were leaving on a trip day before
we were in the bank and we met him and he said uh, “Now when you get home, come over to my
museum.”
Interviewer: He called the house a museum?
George: Yes.
Interviewer: I also heard that, what precipitated their decision to go out, you know to decide not
to operate the mill anymore was when they ran into union trouble. Was that true?
George:
Well, that was, I think part of it, but they also ran into tremendous competition from
General Mills, Pillsbury and people like that.
Helen: Who would they have left it to?
Interviewer: Well, that‟s the…

�15

Helen:

They had nobody.

Interviewer: They had no children at that point, yes. Make more money selling out really.
Helen:

I should think so.

George:
Yes, well of course also the codes for manufacturing and production sanitation
became more stringent in later years, than they had when they were riding high. And so they, I
think and I think they had more money than they could spend and the glamour had worn off.
Now on this money there, my father used to tell me that he would talk to Voigt senior, as a
father, Ralph, Carl, and the rest of them and he said Carl senior was very penurious and he had
Dad said, “Carl what are you going to do when your sons inherit all your money?” And he says,
“They‟ll spend it?” He said, “Ed, I really don‟t care.” He said, “I had my fun saving it if they
have their fun spending it, that‟s up to them.”
Interviewer: What a neat philosophy.
George: I remember he telling this to my father.
Interviewer: Well, you know when you go through the house now, you realize that they were
very saving people.
George: Oh, yes.
Interviewer: „Because they kept the things that are there in the house are just beautifully kept.
You know the dresses, they‟ve got so many dresses upstairs, that are you see the pictures of old
Mr. and Mrs. Voigt and the dress will be upstairs; really in beautiful condition. Was the
ballroom, there was a ballroom upstairs wasn‟t there?
George:

Yes, on the top floor.

Interviewer: Now then, I noticed that you had the lovely invitation. Did they used to have formal
parties like that at the Voigt House?
George:

That was my….

Interviewer:
Helen:

No, I meant there were parties like that at the Voigt House?

I think so because…

George:

My mother uses to speak that way. She used to go there quite often.

Helen:

I think so, because your aunt used to talk about those little gold chairs.

George:

Yes. The musical chair there that…

�16

Helen:
That, then she had that one musical chair. I didn‟t know much about that, but she used
to tell your sisters about it. A chair they bought I believe in Switzerland. One you sat on it, it
played a tune. In those days it was just something, a music box under the chair. But I never saw
that. But she did make a lovely present to me of two pictures. One day she called me over for and
I had tea with her and when I left…
Interviewer: This was Aunt Clara?
Helen:
Aunt Clara. She said I want you to have something. And she gave me lovely, I think
they were pastels of Grandmother and Grandfather Hake that had been made, and she told me
(in) France.
George: Could well have been. They…
Helen:
George:
Helen:
George:

Beautifully framed, I still have them.
She really adored the doctor. She always called him Doc.
My Doctor.
My Doctor, yes.

Interviewer: All the reports we have was that they were very, very congenial couple.
George:

Yes, they were.

Interviewer: And well, I guess she may have been dramatic but people liked her, didn‟t they?
Helen:

She, well, she was a very open… you knew where she stood.

Interviewer: The daughter of the builder of the Voigt house said that he also built their house,
which is on Madison? Was on Madison, or where was their house?
Helen:
George:

Washington.
Well, they….

Interviewer: Doctor and Mrs. Hake
George:

I think she had, I think they had a guarantee five, maybe even seven houses.

Interviewer: Well, this one must have been within about a decade of when he built the Voigt
house. This Mr. Jungbaecker built a house for her and she wanted her money‟s worth. She‟d
come back to him and back to him with her plans and say now, are you ready to give me a good
price? On her plans, you know. So I guess none of them were fools about money.
George:
No, they weren‟t. Well, they actually, the doctor died, and I know because I was
there just a day or so before he died, he died and they lived on Washington Street.

�17

Interviewer: On Washington Street?
George:
Helen:

Just about a block west.
Just around the corner.

George:
It‟s I think, it„s the second house from the corner, had a circular porch. Its glory days
were when they lived there, as was true of that whole area.
Helen:

It‟s almost next to the old Percy (?) home wasn‟t it?

George:

Somewhere in through there.

Helen:

(?) On the Corner. I think next to (?)

Interviewer: Where they, so they all lived close together.
George:
Very close. Of course, they all had it seems to me that I was told maybe she said that
to us when they because some of them never married but oh, Voigt senior, provided in his will
that if they lived in the within the house their expenses would be paid by the estate.
Interviewer: Oh, they did. I‟ve got to turn this [tape] over. I don‟t want it to run out.
[END OF SIDE ONE

TAPE #52]

Interviewer: Before he went out of business with Mr. Herpolsheimer, Mr. Voigt bought a lot of
midi skirts and midi blouses; you know a whole lot of them. And she said she always wore those
skirts and midi blouses in the morning, you know, when she was around the home, running the
house. And then would dress up in the afternoon. And she said to the maids one day she said
there were some of these midi blouses upstairs that had never been worn, she said I‟ll have to
wear one every day till I die because they‟d never wear out. And I thought, oh dear I‟m sure they
had enough money she could have just given them to the Salvation Army. But people didn‟t
function quite that way, in the old days, I guess.
Helen:
Remember, I knew one cute kind of a cute little incident, about Aunt Clara. We were
having dinner one evening, one at the Schnitzlebank, and [she] was there with her brothers. She
had been quite sick and it about was her first time out. And so, when I saw her I, we both went
over to speak to her. And I said to her, “Well how are you Aunt Clara?” She said, “Well of
course, I guess I‟m alright.” She said, “I‟ll tell you Helen, I‟m going to have kraut tonight if it
kills me.”
Interviewer: Well. I‟m surprised at the people that at the memories of the people who had
worked for them are very, very pleasant memories. They have very, they apparently were very
friendly down-to-earth people in that and they are remembered by their help as being not, you
couldn‟t just do anything I mean they demanded good work, but if you worked well you got
along very, very well. And the gal I talked to last week who was a secretary who worked for

�18

Frank and Carl and Ralph, said she was permitted to say anything you know She said when they,
she booked orders, she apparently booked the orders that would come in from Australia and all
those other places, you know. And she said, “Well I used to tell them you ought to get out on the
road and talk to more people and sell more things here in the United States, we wouldn‟t have to
ship it so far.” But he never took my advice, she said. And I thought it was interesting, not
because of that but because apparently it was a very free office, you know that it wasn‟t run on a
very formal basis. And she said that they were on a very first name basis. Not that she called
them Mr. Hake, or Mr. Voigt, but they called her by her first name.
George:
I think, I don‟t think anything would have pleased Ralph more than if they had taken
the old mills and preserved them. And of course, Ralph almost thought it would make a great, he
told me once, he thought it‟d be great for like an atmosphere restaurant. And of course, that
never came to be. And also there was a time, about ten years ago, when there was an effort to
establish hotel there on that land. And Ralph was laughing he said, “George you know they think
that‟s great news.” He said, “Fred Pantlind, Fred Z. Pantlind talked about that to me thirty years
ago.” He said, “So there‟s nothing very new.” But if every, if people would have always
prefaced their requests by saying, “Ralph we‟d like your house or we‟d like your mill and we
want to call it the Voigt Grand Rapids Mill or the Voigt and Jones Mill.” If you identify the
Voigts and Ralph, I think, loved that identification and he deserved it, really the family did. I
think very honestly that if an effort had been made during Ralph‟s life time not when, not the last
few years, when he was ill, but if they would‟ve said Ralph we‟d like to have your family
residence we‟d like to have it recognized what can you do to see that it goes to the city for
historic purposes? I think Ralph would‟ve done everything possible to see that realized. I am on
the museum commission.
Interviewer: Now, that is eventually who is going to control it?
George: Well, actually it‟s on formally and I suppose legally it‟s under the control of the City
of Grand, under the ownership of the City of Grand Rapids. But it‟s really under the jurisdiction
of the museum. Then that in turn is subrogated, believe to the Historical Preservation
Commission.
Interviewer: Well, those gals were really...
George:
Helen:
George:
Helen:

Oh, they deserve the glory.
Just dedicated their lives, to that house.
They‟ve done a great job.
I think they really deserve a lot of credit.

Interviewer: Oh, yes. And you know they‟ve that‟s a labor of love when they go down there.
George:

Well, I was on the finance committee.

�19

Helen:

I‟ve had luncheons there and they‟re fantastic.

Interviewer: Yes, they do a beautiful job. Really do.
George:
I was on the finance committee with Frank Frankfurter, David and John Hunting and
myself, to have that house transferred legally to the status it now enjoys. And the Grand Rapids
Foundation of course contributed substantially. I think Dave Hunting senior did an awful lot to
realize the ownership change.
Interviewer: I know him just a little, he‟s a dear person.
George:
He is. He‟s tremendously alert. John, young John, you know is his son. He‟s
building right over here.
Interviewer:
Helen:
George:
Helen:
George:

Is that where Marilyn, the new house is going to be right over here.

That‟s where, yes.
With the doctor though.
It will be lovely. Looks just great.
He‟s a very vital person for his age.

Interviewer: I should say so.
George:
You know, I don‟t know if you‟d heard the incident or the story of the time that the
Doctor and his wife were crossing Lake Michigan to attend the wedding of one of my uncles that
is Theodore Hake.
Interviewer: No, no I haven‟t heard it.
George:
Over in Milwaukee. Well, actually my grandfather already was in Milwaukee for
two weddings. They were a week apart and the family and friends they were all invited of
course. So actually my mother was going, but my brother came down with measles or something
like that and so at the last minute she deferred going. But many of the Hakes went and also the
Doctor and his wife Clara. And they were on a ship called the Naomi, which caught fire in midlake. And it was quite a disaster. It‟s been written up in many of the journals, in fact I understand
that there is a free-lance writer in Grand Rapids now who has been working on the story of that.
But as the story was told to me by my uncle, the fire was pretty much discovered, at least they
learned about it early in the evening, when they because they were all as usual playing cards in
the salon. And as they were dealing the cards…
Helen:

Excuse me, it wasn‟t early in the evening, it was late at night

George:
Late at night, yes. Well it all depends on how the Hakes would interpret “early in the
evening” and “late at night,” course they never knew tomorrow, half the time.

�20

Interviewer: They were not early, not early to bed people.
Helen:

They were all playing cards.

George:
They were all playing cards and somebody said, “I smell smoke.” And with that they
pretty soon obviously the ship was a total disaster. And the Doctor Hake was I believe the only
doctor on board and he administered to many of the people, some of whom died. And there are
pictures of that ship and...
Interviewer: Were they able to get to port without sinking.
George:
Yes, they took the lifeboats out. Oh, yes, Very much so. And they show, we have
pictures somewhere where they towed the charred hull into Grand [Haven]….There‟s really
nothing left of the upper structure. And my, I know the doctor‟s wife she was a little bit
hysterical so the story goes and so she left her stateroom and was waiting to be rescued and she
was in her corset and carrying an umbrella.
Helen:

You know when they wore corset covers?

Interviewer: Oh, yes. With a corset cover and an umbrella. Was prepared for all emergencies
wasn‟t she? Boy, that‟s a fantastic story; I‟ll bet that went the rounds. Wow. Oh, dear.
George:

Well that there were just pages of publicity on it.

Interviewer: Was this like about the time of the World Wars or earlier than that?
George:

Oh no, no this was way back.

Interviewer: Before the First World War?
George:
Interviewer:
George:

It‟d be it‟d be I would say about nineteen seven or eight
seven or eight?
Oh, yes about seventy years ago

Interviewer: Oh yes, that‟s a long time.
George:
There‟s another friend there that I believe figured in the Voigt family background as
a friend. That‟s the old Kusterer family. Of course there were a lot of these old German families
you know, and they all clung together. Some of these families I have well a familiarity with
because my grandfather Hake among other things was agent for the Hamburg-American Line.
And at the time he was the oldest agent and there are in this group both in years and in years of
service. And a suspicion is always been suggested that he did that because he liked to go to
Europe and whenever he went he would divide his children into two groups. He‟d take first the
one six and then the other six.

�21

Interviewer: Oh, isn‟t that wonderful.
George: And I presume he figured it was more economical that way anyhow. But in the process
he was instrumental in arranging the passage of most of these old German families in Grand
Rapids. And their home was really quite a congregating place for these Germans. You know
originally you speak of the west side, right across from where we used to live which is all long
gone but the expressway, right directly across the street, one of the Voigts lived. And the other
one lived right around the corner on Court Street.
Interviewer: Yes, that‟s what I understood from the very old lady that I talked to. She could
remember going to, she could remember going to Union School with Carl Voigt. And then she
remembered Ralph and she remembered when Ralph went away to school. He went to Andover,
I think and then to Yale. And she could remember that he went away to school but she had gone
to Union School with Carl.
George:
Well, years ago they had many wagons you know, dray wagons and they had
beautiful horses. And just on what was then known as Shawmut Avenue, now Lake Michigan
Drive, they had a pasture that was not very large but they‟d it was all fenced in. And the horses
were finished many of the horse were stabled there. The others were stabled down across from
our old building. And I used to go up there and watch these draft horses. They‟d run toward the
fence and you‟d think they were going right through. But they were friendly, gentle souls. They
had excellent care.
Interviewer: Beautiful horses?
George:

Oh, yes. They were.

Interviewer: They probably took just as good care of the horses as they did everything else.
George:

Yes, that‟s right

Interviewer: I can never get over the woodwork in that house because it„s so beautifully kept.
You know the house really (is) in remarkably great condition. I think that‟s the...
Helen:
George:

Didn‟t they say about the carriage house too, George?
Yes,

Helen:

Harnesses and everything.

George:

They had harnesses in there and they just…

Helen:

Everything was so lovely.

George: Yes, they‟re just waiting for somebody for some horse to appear and the harness
would be all ready for them. And they had I believe an old, I didn‟t see this but I was told by a

�22

fellow at the time who worked for Cadillac and he used to collect old cars, and he said they had a
beautiful electric I think, wasn‟t it electric?
Helen:

That‟s what they said.

Interviewer: They had an electric car? They were handsome things.
George:

Yeah and that was I think sold to somebody up north.

Interviewer: Were they great travelers? Were the Doctor and Mrs. Hake great travelers?
George:

Oh yes, they‟d gone to Europe, oh half a dozen times.

Interviewer: It seemed to me if you look around the bedroom upstairs that there are obviously
things that came from…
Helen:
She told me that she had seen, I think three different Popes. And that she always
asked the Pope to bless his hands, because he was a doctor.
Interviewer: Oh, isn‟t that lovely?
Helen:

She told me that.

George:
Well, he had, the doctor incidentally occupied a home which had been my
grandfather‟s home, his father‟s home, on the site that is now occupied by Grand Rapids Press.
And this home was originally built by Martin Sweet who in turn after he sold this house to my
grandfather, bought the house or built the house rather which is now the Women‟s City Club.
Interviewer: Oh, yes. Was this the Sweet that had Sweet‟s hotel?
George:

Yes. And Martin Sweet and my grandfather - that whole clique they were…

Helen:

They had the sweetest little house going up the hill there. Just darling.

Interviewer: It makes me sick to think of how pretty this city must have been at one time.
George:

Yes, it really was.

Interviewer: Really was beautiful.
George:

So many of the better things have been unfortunately torn down.

Interviewer: Well, the, you know…
Helen:

The City Hall…

Interviewer: Oh well, it‟s really brutal to think that such a beautiful building could have gone.
Helen:

George was on television one night trying to save it.

�23

Interviewer:
Hall?
George:

Oh yes, and who was it, Posey Benton who was it chained herself to the City

Oh, Mary Stiles.

Interviewer: Mary Stiles, yes. I heard about that when I first moved here.
Helen:
We were in Europe and at the Nordic Hotel was it, Oslo? No, it was Vienna, one of
those. Well, anyway we walked in, we walked out of our room in the morning walked downstairs
to the desk and a man held up the paper and he says, “Isn‟t this your home town?” And there she
was, on the ball, you know.
Interviewer: Do you remember the family well enough to know if they were interested in
music or if they were interested in, if you read old Grand Rapids history there was always such
an active interest in music in this community-the St. Cecilia Society, the Ladies Literary Club
and well, the Women‟s City Club. Were any of the family, the Voigt family that you know of,
interested in music or in any other…?
George:
I really don‟t know. I don‟t know. The only, I would venture though that the Voigts
might have some interest in music through my Aunt Augusta Rasch-Hake, who was quite a
pianist. And she studied in Vienna under Lesterchensky who was probably the foremost teacher
of piano in the last two hundred years. And she used to play for example in concert with Percy
Granger.
Interviewer: Oh my, she was really good. She died only about two years ago. She was in her
nineties. But she had a tremendous talent for music. And that‟s why she, her father sent her to
Vienna for further study. But probably because of family association the Voigts and I‟m only
surmising this because I would venture that they had themselves a pretty good interest in music.
Interviewer: There was the room off the drawing room, now they call the Music Room but I
don‟t know if it was called the Music Room then. But they have several you know they have
several instruments around.
Helen:

How about the music? Did you find any old music?

Interviewer: I think there is some there, but I‟ve never really gone through it. It‟s, I‟ve really
been more interested in digging into the library to what books they had. Thought it was
interesting to find out what books people kept around in those days.
George:
Have you ever talked to any of the other members of the Voigt family? The
surviving…
Interviewer: No. As a matter of fact, I was going to talk to Charles Dubee and then he‟s been in
the hospital and I guess he‟s out in recovery right now but, he‟s he had a heart attack.

�24

Helen:

Oh, did he?

Interviewer: Yes, and the word down at our church, is he‟s a member of our church, and word
down around our church was that it was a pretty severe heart attack. So and I don‟t….
Helen:

He was awfully heavy.

Interviewer: Well, I‟ve only been doing this for about the last month or so and really he‟s had
his heart attack and I really didn‟t think that it was even tactful, to go and talk. But he‟s one
person that I know that I plan to talk to. The Pantlinds lived across the street from the Voigts.
George:

Yes, I believe that way back…

Interviewer: And isn‟t that Mrs. Whinery? Isn‟t Kate Whinery a Pantlind?
Helen:

That would be Kay Whinery or Dosey.

George:

Then there‟s Hilda.

Interviewer: I talked to Mrs. Hanchett over the phone but she said she didn‟t, she‟d been away
from town so much that there was nothing she could add, to the story.
George:

You know Hilda Pantlind?

Interviewer: No, I don‟t.
George:
Well, she‟s married to Charlie Armstrong. They live in Arizona I believe most of the
time now, don‟t they?
Helen:

She comes in the summer but her sister‟s here. Cause I saw her at the beauty shop.

Interviewer: Now who‟s her sister?
Helen:
George:
Helen:

Dosey Pantlind and isn‟t that Dosey?
I don‟t know I only knew Hilda.
Who were we talking about Hilda and her sister, Mrs. Whinery I‟m sorry.

Interviewer: Kate Whinery
Helen:
George:

Yes, I‟m thinking of Fred Pantlind‟s, no. I‟m thinking of Boyd Pantlind‟s wife
I talked with Boyd today.

Interviewer: Well. I just, I guess one day I was at Susan Lowe Guild and Kate Whinery belongs
to Susan Lowe Guild and she mentioned that she lived across. I‟d come from the Voigt House,

�25

that day, and she said that they lived across the street. But she‟d never been in the house very
much. Were you ever in the house very much?
George:

Oh, yes.

Helen:

You were in.

George:

Not often but …

Interviewer: Just the normal course of events.
George: Yes, I tell you who might be able to give you some information too, is Bruce Gilmore.
You see Bruce Gilmore occupied the Idema house which he I believe owned. That‟s where the
Northwestern Mutual Life Insurance is.
Interviewer: Oh, that‟s right next door, isn‟t it?
George:
Yes, yes. Now what association Bruce would have had with say Ralph or Carl, I
don‟t know except they were neighbors. Now Gene Gilmore works, Bruce is pretty much retired.
He‟s, his brother was with him in the Bahamas here a few ago. And Bruce, I think will be back
as soon as the weather warms up a bit. And he might be able to give you some information too.
Interviewer: You‟re still active in business, aren‟t you?
George:

Oh, yes very much so.

Interviewer: Yes, so you can‟t get away in the winter like everybody else.
George:
Helen:

Oh, I can get away any time I want to.
He‟s president.

Interviewer: Well that doesn‟t mean you can take off as easily. It‟s usually if you‟re the
president you have to stay and…
George:
No, I can say that because our three sons are in the business and also my nephew
and they do a tremendous job.
Interviewer: Oh, so you‟re a little freer then.
George:

Oh, yes.

Interviewer: You don‟t (feel) you‟re chained. Well, I know that Mrs. Jackoboice, you‟ve done a
lot of traveling.
Helen:
We do, but we‟re not very Florida fans or anything like that. We just returned from
Mexico, we were down there for about three weeks. But…

�26

Interviewer: That‟s nice.
Helen:

Yes.

George:
We were supposed to have gone last September. We went on a southern trip through
Europe including Eastern Europe, Soviet Union, Hungary and so on. And, but my wife here had
a little scare which fortunately…
Interviewer: A heart thing?
Helen: No, I just had a sudden flare and it was really something. I‟m a very, very well person
and I just felt funny pain and I just thought well I‟ll go and have it checked you know. And, my
word, they put me right in the hospital, had x-rays and what have you. And they thought I had
something just terrible. And so I….
Interviewer: Oh, that‟s awful.
Helen:

Yes, it turned out to be nothing.

Interviewer: Oh, that‟s good.
George:

Meanwhile …

Interviewer: But meanwhile you cancelled your trip.
Helen:
By the time, yes, he said no way could you go on that trip, because it was something
with the digestive system.
Interviewer: Well, my sister-in-law has been into Russia twice and she said the only thing about
Russia, is you don‟t want to be sick in Russia.
Helen:

That‟s where…

Interviewer: Be healthy if you get around it. She loved it though. She said it‟s worth going just
to through the Hermitage.
Helen:

My husband has been there several times.

Interviewer: Have you?
George:
Helen:

Oh, yes. Been all through Eastern Europe.
I don‟t want to get sick in India either.

Interviewer: I think there are a lot of places you prefer not to….
Helen:

There‟s a lot of places I don‟t want to be there sick.

�27

Interviewer: But on the other hand you can‟t stop going just on that chance.
Helen:

Course not.

Interviewer: Right, right.
George:
There‟s I guess they were gradually are restoring or recollecting or collecting some
of the furnishings and so on, of the Voigt place. „Course the attic; it was just loaded with…
Helen:
Yeah, they‟re gradually doing, well, I think what they‟ve tried to do is reconstruct
what it probably looked, might have looked like early on. Not in its later days.
George:

I wouldn‟t think that there‟s too many basic changes, do you, from the old days?

Helen:
No, I remember when whenever I‟d go there though she‟d invite me over for tea, we
always went directly to her room.
Interviewer: You did?
Helen:

Clara never sat downstairs.

Interviewer: Did you ever know Miss Emma Hake, err Voigt?
Helen:
Yes, I just knew her. And she‟d probably be there, but you knew, you could hear her
moving around something. But if Aunt Clara had a guest she went to her room. And we sat there
and it was a very pleasant room upstairs, you know which one she had?
Interviewer: Yes.
Helen:
And she‟d always say, oh come up here and then she‟d always point out “my Doctor”.
She had his picture all over the room and we had tea and we‟d visit.
Interviewer: One of the fascinating things that you know about being down there is that the
desk, the letters in the, stuffed in the cubbyhole of her desk are her letters. They‟re the letters and
they‟re you know, it‟s as if she‟d left the room because you know the letters that are there she
left a letter to Bishop Whittemore and a letter to a Catholic Bishop about something that she was
corresponding with him about. You knew it‟s just as if she walked out of the room and were
coming back. Except that the date had stopped you know, several years ago. So that‟s really it
comes as close that houses come to living history, as almost any place you walk into.
George:

That‟s right.

George:

I don‟t think you‟d ever find a house...

Interviewer: No, because everything you have the feeling the family just stepped out. And it‟s
like the turn of the century. And there they are you know, just stop action. And they‟re very few

�28

things they‟ve got Ralph‟s picture that LeClaire did in the downstairs hall. But most of the rest of
the stuff you can go through the house and it looks very old.
Helen: Wouldn‟t that make a fantastic movie?
Interviewer: No, it‟s really a remarkable thing. The other thing I don‟t pick up about the Voigts
is that they were very, very involved, now the time when your grandfather arrived here, well,
back in the eighteen fifties if you look down the roster of the people who were mayors and
officers in town they were always the prominent businessmen in town. And the politics didn‟t get
separated from the business until, say after, oh well after you all, I think after that you got into a
different kind of person being in politics. From, but early on it was liable to be prominent
businessmen in town who were married and so forth. But the Voigt‟s name doesn‟t come up ever
being involved in politics at all.
George:
No, not that I can recall. My grandfather was city treasurer for a period of years.
And he always, he was credited generally with having established the bookkeeping system which
until recent years was still the nucleus of the city systems.
Interviewer: That‟s interesting.
George:
But that was Hake, you see, William Hake. And, but he was, he was quite active in
city affairs and his brother John even more so.
Interviewer: But you never pick up the name Voigt?
George:

No, not…..

Interviewer: No, I‟ve seen the name Hake but I‟ve never seen the name Voigt.
George:
The Voigts were very keen business people. They tell a story and then there‟s
(nothing) irregular about it, it‟s just typical I think of their time, and their generation. That they
would buy wheat and of course, in those years there never was any governmental control on or
anything on it. Well…
Interviewer: They were real gamblers?
George:
Yes, well if you buy wheat on say futures, why if it went down, well, boys the mill
bought that. If it went up, that was the Voigts.
Interviewer: That was the Voigts. They still say you know that they say the commodities market
is a great place for the real gamblers of the world. Rest of us…
George:
I think you know, you speak of the house I think, they guarded that house very well.
I mean, I don‟t think the house was ever at any time abused by anybody in the family. It was
always sentimentally regarded and well maintained.

�29

Interviewer: Yes. Oh my goodness, yes. You just have to look behind doors you know and the
polish the obvious gleam on all the woodwork had to come from loving rubbing you know. And
diligent rubbing on some and apparently I think the woman who was their housekeeper is still
alive.
George:

Yes, I think she is.

Interviewer: And there‟s another person I have on my list to go talk to because it hasn‟t been
loaded down with gunk. No or anything. It‟s just really cleaned and polished and such beautiful I
don‟t think any of us these days think much about oak you know as being this great wood. But in
that lower bedroom where Ralph was at the end of his life well that looks to me to be cherry
wood. In there, its beautiful close grained woodwork and probably as pretty as wood as there is
in the house. It‟s really nice. You know your room reminds me of the houses down around
Charleston.
Helen:

Oh, really.

Interviewer: This isn‟t Cyprus, is it?
George:

This is walnut, solid walnut.

Interviewer:
Helen:

It‟s just beautiful wood.

Thank you, thank you.

Interviewer: Just lovely.
Helen:
We think so, we just love it. George is very “booky” and he always wanted a lovely
library. So, we built it.
Interviewer: Oh, it‟s really nice. But I love the color of the wood.
George: This, this walnut is about that thick all the way through. I shudder, if you could even
get, even get it now. Remember Warren Rindge?
Interviewer: No, I don‟t.
George:
Well, Warren was one of the last traditional you see he was educated in Europe and
Warren wouldn‟t touch anything modern. But things like this he loved. And he always said this
was the finest library he had ever built.
Interviewer: Oh well proportioned to the room is beautifully proportioned.
Helen:

We think so too.

Interviewer: And the paneling is so lovely.

�30

Helen:

Now that‟ll be…..

Interviewer: Oh, the little dentalling around the edges that goes up to the top.
George:
rooms.

They were about, they were full time they were about eight months on these two

Interviewer: I didn‟t know that there was a company that made all that finished mill work that
went into the Voigt house. And that this Mrs., this Mrs. McLachlan that I talked to was the
daughter of Jungbaecker (and) that it was her father was the head of this company. I still can‟t,
the name has slipped my mind, they did finish mill work and they turned out those handsome
you know the stair runs that are so pretty down there. I thought, I wondered about that and…..
Helen:

You know so much about architecture you must have…

Interviewer: Not really, very much at all. But I was interested in that because she was telling me
she worked as a bookkeeper in this place and she said that at the time they had built this house
that the foreman of the room upstairs made eighteen dollars a week and they stepped down to
nine dollars a week for the man that ran the elevator. This was for a sixty hour work week. And
they worked ten and a half hours every day except Saturday. Ten hours and ten minutes every
day and then on Saturday they could go home at five o‟clock, instead of six.
George:
Helen:

That‟s what my father said their work schedule was two years ago.
Really?

Interviewer: Is that fantastic!
George:

Well, all the [way] up until the war years we always worked Saturdays.

Interviewer: Oh sure, I remember that.
George:
My father always said that they‟d start at six and they‟d quit at six except Saturday
they‟d quit at five.
Interviewer: Isn‟t that fantastic?
George:
Helen:
George:
Helen:

And the only day they had off was Sunday.
They didn‟t complain, they didn‟t have strikes and things, did they?
No.
They do now.

Interviewer: Gosh, it‟s hard to think about that. And I said, “Well didn‟t you mind the long
hours?” And she said, “No, everybody worked. Even the bosses.”

�31

Helen:

That‟s the truth.

Interviewer: You know if everyone‟s working it‟s all the same thing. I‟ve got to switch
cartridges while we still want before we get interrupted, if you don‟t mind.
[END OF TYPEWRITTEN TRANSCRIPT. But the interviewer and the Jackoboices continue
talking as they view pictures and mementos. In the file, there is now a paper copy of all of the
following transcript which matches the CD recordings.]
George:

This is a picture of the Voigt house here.

Interviewer: This is the Detroit Free Press, oh, yes.
George:

Yes,

Helen:
Have you ever been there when they model some of the dresses? Have you seen
Barbara in that one? I understand she is absolutely gorgeous.
Interviewer: Yes, she is. You must have a very slim figure to fit into the dresses.
Helen: Barbara said someone called me one day and they said that she should have her
portrait done in that dress; someone that knew her very well.
Interviewer: Yes, she really should.
Helen:
Someone told David you should go down with a camera and take her picture in the
dress. Have you seen it? I would love to see it...
Interviewer: Yes, and it is just wonderful.
George: This is…
Interviewer: Oh yes, now, I didn‟t know she was a business woman here.
George:

Oh, I think that....

Interviewer: Oh, it was, that‟s just because she was just in the family business.
George:

Not to my memory, was she ever active in the business.

Interviewer: According to the gal in the office, it was the three brothers that came down to the
office, the girls never came down. Neither your Aunt Clara nor Miss Emma ever came down.
George:

I never saw them there. I don‟t remember ever seeing them.

Interviewer: Hmmm.

�32

George:
This is just a partial and I am looking for more, there has got to be another page of
the Naomi…
Interviewer: You don‟t have a date on this? Yes, yes you do, May twenty-second nineteen
seven. That‟s right, you were correct about that.
Helen:

Is that the white book?

George:

Yes,

Interviewer: Many thrilling accounts of the catastrophe are told.
George:

There might be some other pages in there too.

Interviewer: They were going to attend the wedding of Louis F. Hake.
George:

Yes.

Interviewer: And Miss Mary Buerger of Milwaukee. Yes. I would like to read that before I go. I
don‟t want to read…
George:

I think I have a more complete. This is an item on my uncle, the Doctor.

Interviewer: Did his elementary studies at the parochial school and public schools. His parents
sent him to Notre Dame University where he spent three (days) years. After leaving this
institution, decided his choice on the advice of his friends to take up the biological course. He
entered the famous Ann Arbor University where he graduated in eighteen eighty-two. Received
the degree of MD, youngest member among five hundred students. Obtained a situation in the
pharmacy department of the wholesale retail drug concern of Thum Brothers.
George:

Here is another thing…

Interviewer: A man used to live downstairs from us when first moved here, we had an apartment
his family were the Hazeltine Perkins, you know Carl Montgelas.
George:

I know Carl…

Interviewer: Yes, that‟s interesting. Cecelia Hake, isn‟t that a pretty one, this a beautiful, did you
compile this book?
George:

That was my mother did that, most of it‟s in her handwriting.

Interviewer: That‟s beautiful.
George:

So, it‟s…

�33

Interviewer: Here is Doctor. Hake‟s death, practicing physician, specialist in children‟s diseases
in Grand Rapids since eighteen eighty-two died Saturday morning at three fifty-seven
Washington Street SE.
Helen:

That‟s what I thought.

Interviewer: That‟s a good thing to know. He was only fifty-seven when he died.
Helen:
George:

Oh, was he?
Yes.

Interviewer: Yes, had traveled and had the distinction of having met three popes, that‟s what
you told me.
Helen:

That‟s what I had said.

Interviewer: The last, the Thirteenth Pope Benedict, he was a graduate of both University of
Michigan and Notre Dame and studied abroad. He was eleven years, a major in the state troops
and for thirty years attendant physician at St. John‟s Orphan Asylum. This was work he did
voluntarily and was married to Miss Clara Voigt on September twelfth, eighteen eighty-nine.
Surviving are his widow, his father who is ninety-one years old and resides at two forty-six
Ransom. Three sisters and Mrs. Helen Jackoboice. That would be your mother.
George:

Yes, my mother.

Interviewer: And eight brothers, wow. Protestant, Jew and Catholic alike attended the funeral
services for Doctor. Hake Tuesday last week at the Cathedral. Some praying for the repose of the
soul of the departed, others testifying at least by their presence that the late doctor, by the best of
his ability struggled and accomplished much for the betterment of his fellow citizens, and the
greater glory of the common good.
George:

He predeceased his father.

Interviewer: Yes, now this UBA Home and Hospital United Benevolent was the fore runner,
that‟s Blodgett, isn‟t it?
George:

You know, I could be wrong, I associated that with Butterworth.

Interviewer: I think, Butterworth is St. Mark‟s. It was St. Mark‟s before it was Butterworth.
George: Could be.
Interviewer: Yeah, this I think you‟ll find is the forerunner, and here is a picture of the Voigt
Mill and a picture of it.
George:

I imagine there is a lot of those.

�34

Interviewer: Mary Hake and Arthur Gore. And here, there is a dinner menu on here, too. Did
you ever look at those meals we could never eat them now a days?
Helen:

Isn‟t that ….

Interviewer: Fantastic. Home of Mary Hake Gore
George:

That was...

Interviewer:
George:

Oh, your mother did a beautiful job, didn‟t she?
That Gore was a sad story, there is enough things in that Hake tribe to ….

Interviewer: Well, I think in a big family like that there were some, some tragedies as well as
some…
George:

And yes there really were.

Interviewer: You can‟t ever have a big family like that without some sadness as well as ….She
has each of her children here and she has, isn‟t this neat.
Helen:
I just love to, you know how you go looking for something and looking in a drawer
and you spend the whole afternoon reading? You know?
Interviewer: Oh, yes.
Helen:

Just looking at pictures.

Interviewer: Here it says one eighty-four Ransom, a breakfast immediately afterwards, oh a
wedding breakfast.
George: Here is one on the McGraws; it is years and years ago in the paper….
Interviewer: “Judy Jots it Down” must have been going on a long time. There must have been a
lot of Judy's. Mr. Francis B McGraw of the firm of Duran &amp; McGraw and Amelia L. daughter of
ex-alderman William Hake in St. Andrews Church Thursday, full dress affair was conducted on
a magnificent scale. Finest velvet covers being laid from the carriages into the church. The bride
was superbly dressed in white satin with wreath and veil. The groom wore the conventional full
dress suit of black with a diamond crescent on a white neck scarf, my goodness, how times have
changed. Because this story appeared in the eighteen seventy-six in the old Grand Rapids Daily
Eagle, One of solid gold nuggets we ran across when looking over a scrapbook that was loaned
to us by Lewis F. Hake.
George:

This was another menu for another daughter.

Interviewer: The wedding of Mary Hake, and this was the one you said was such a sad story…
about Arthur Gore. Mock Turtle Soup, California Salmon, Red sealed Bordeaux, Sweetbread

�35

patties, Snipe on toast. First time I‟ve really known what snipe really was, they use to kid us
about snipe, Saddle of antelope larded with Sauce Picante, Roast Turkey, Spring chicken, French
peas, tipped asparagus, Spareribs, Roman punch, Chicken Salad, Potato Salad, Shrimp salad.
Helen: Watched their calories.
Interviewer: Raspberry ice cream, Strawberry, Charlotte Russe, then Champagne, Pyramids of
Macaroons kisses, French torte, Fresh fruit and French coffee. That‟s a magnificent meal, isn‟t
it?
George: I think that is the only picture existing. I have blown this up from a very small tintype.
This is the house where Doctor Hake practiced medicine in, after my grandfather who still
owned the property and moved into the big house. This is Hake right here in the picture. This one
is the same one you see up there.
Interviewer: Oh, yes, now that is your grandfather?
George:

Yes.

Interviewer: Isn‟t that nice.
George:
These were painted by Gregori, who painted all the murals at Notre Dame
University.
Interviewer: Of course, he did a fine job, now where is this house?
George: This is the house, long torn down; it stood on the present site of the Grand Rapids
Press.
Interviewer: Oh, I see.
George: In the back there was an orchard, there was also a well. And it always has been stated,
that the well there which predated the use of the water that was there by the Arctic Spring Water
Co, if you remember that name. And originally by Kusterer of the brewery who had the old
Furniture City Brewery. And Kusterer and my grandfather were very close personal friends.
Kusterer went down on the Alpena, if you remember that story. Well, after my grandfather‟s
family grew, he moved on the hill and kept this property until later it was sold after his death.
But Doctor Hake practiced medicine out back and the house was entirely different. The walls in
that,
Interviewer: It is made from limestone out of the river.
George:

That‟s right Charles Belknap lead a drive to keep the thing, he failed.

Interviewer: What a shame, what a treasure that would have been.
George:

Yes.

�36

Interviewer: Your grandfather lived here?
George:
That was his first house, actually when he first came to the city, he didn‟t live there
because he wasn‟t married he was just a kid he came from Germany. He had his first job with
John Clancy who had the first wholesale grocery in Grand Rapids and my grandfather learned
the Indian dialect and worked there. He got married at St. Michael‟s church in Chicago.
Interviewer: When your grandfather first came, they were still making payments to the Indian
every fall.
George:

Yes, he came about eighteen forty-seven – eighteen fifty or so.

Interviewer: They were still making payments to the Indians every October and November until
eighteen fifty-eight or so.
Helen:

This is built over the old spring.

George: That‟s the old brewery.
Interviewer: “The past crumbles easily”…Fox Deluxe Brewery on Michigan Street, now was
this torn down for the expressway? They lost the depots and everything. Now this is Christopher
Kusterer a German brewer who went into partnership with John Pannell, Grand Rapids. They
started a large brewery on Michigan Street. A large pure cool gushing spring.
George: That‟s the spring. My grandfather was in many different, lumbering, a lumber mill.
Interviewer: These old people turned their hands to a lot of things in the course of getting
established, didn‟t they?
George:

Here is an item when Doctor Hake came back from Europe one time.

Interviewer: Nineteen fourteen, oh, they were in the war zone in Europe. In view of the present
events in Europe the great Peace Palace at The Hague is a huge joke. On his arrival from a trip to
Europe, accompanied by Mrs. Hake we went direct to Hamburg, Germany from Amsterdam after
a visit to The Hague and only a day or two after we visited the famous monument to the peace of
the world. Leading powers of the countries were clutching at each other throats. They were there
when war was declared, weren‟t they, in August nineteen fourteen? You see that would be at the
time. Were clutching each others‟ throats, and practically all of Europe were seething in the heat
of the impending conflict. We were impressed with the beautiful urns of wonderful design,
emblematic of peace, the contributions of the Czar of Russia and the German Kaiser. The
beautiful tribute of Japan and we‟re told a prominent place had been reserved for a tribute from
the United States. Doctor Hake could not refrain from emphasizing the inconsistency of the
situation and emphatically remarked that the present the wonderful Peace Palace, erected by
Carnegie is a travesty on the sentiment of peace among nations. I believe the war now in
progress will set civilization back a half a century. Boy, how right he was.

�37

George:
Yes. There is a little story about when he returned I believe from this trip, there was
a little dinner party and many of the people of the city of some prominence were in attendance
and I believe the Voigts were there too and even though my Uncle obviously was German as
were the Voigts. The thing got a little controversial and they had quite a splash in the paper about
the sentiments expressed by Doctor Hake that apparently weren‟t considered .the thing to say
with war so imminent. And he was criticized for it, rather strongly, but he didn‟t retract, I don‟t
think. ..
Interviewer: Was there any feeling in your family, any reaction against German people
expressed? Or you had been here so long by that time…
George:

Oh, no we had no relatives over there.

Interviewer: One of the things that comes through as you look over the history of Grand Rapids
is that the German people have disappeared into the population. Whereas the Dutch have
retained this Dutchness.
Helen:

Yes, that‟s right.

Interviewer: But the German people have just joined the Yankees.
George:
I think it is rather fitting and I think a tribute to these people. Both my grandfathers
are memorialized in the Grand Rapids Museum.
Interviewer: In the public museum downtown?
George:

Yes. In the Ethnic groups.

Interviewer: That‟s something to be proud of.
George:

Yes, incidentally on this one picture here, this was not at the Voigt house anymore.

Interviewer: No, that is not there at all.
George:

That was originally an egg house.

Interviewer: That room doesn‟t look anything like that now, that room looks quite different, this
looks more like a drawing room but this one has been turned into a music room. Maybe not the
way it looked. A lot of the furniture went to various relatives.
George:
Yes, that„s my understanding, when you come in there is that model mannequin with
the bridal dress on. Well that‟s Doctor Hake‟s wife.
Interviewer:
George:

Is that her wedding dress, that‟s the one that Barbara modeled, isn‟t it?
Oh, is it? I don‟t know.

�38

Interviewer: I think that‟s the one, because it is a beautiful wedding dress.
George: Not to distract you from that, but here are some cablegrams, telegrams and so on at the
time of that Naomi disaster.
Interviewer: Oh, yes. Isn‟t that neat, all those barred by the sad misfortune on the lake stretch
hands across and join in hardy congratulations. Everybody safe and doing well; may this gloom
not cloud your joy; may the sunshine of the day be the sunshine of your life. Who is M. Richard?
Louis Hake &amp; bride.
George:
He was, I don‟t know, some relative, but this Albert Hake is… This all ties in
because of the …
Interviewer: Naomi disaster. I‟d like to really take the time and really read through this, if you
wouldn‟t mind me coming back. I would love to come back and sit and read sometime.
George:

Oh, sure, glad to have you.

Interviewer: There is no use reading into the tape recorder.
George:

No, I know.

Interviewer: And I think your mother did a beautiful job in putting this all together.
George:

I have a lot of this stuff that is just…

Interviewer: Now, here you are, Mr. and Mrs. William Hake requesting the honor of your
presence of their daughter Helen Matilda to Edward J. Jackoboice, June twelfth, one thousand
nine-hundred and six, nine o‟clock. St. Mary‟s Church. Now where is St. Mary‟s Church?
George:
That‟s on the West side where Father Bingham is pastor now. That is, that is one of
the really sleeper churches of the dioceses. You see, that is the second oldest parish in the
dioceses of Grand Rapids.
Interviewer: That is before St. Andrews?
George:

No, St. Andrews is first.

Interviewer: And St. Mary‟s was second?
George:
Now, St Mary‟s Church was not the second Gothic church, it was the first church in
the Gothic style. St. Mary‟s is an older parish, but St James has an older existing structure, But
that St Mary‟s church was in a Gothic style. It is a gorgeous church inside.
Interviewer: I‟ll make a point to go over to St. Mary‟s. I‟ll make a point to go over and look.
Now, this is your grandfather? William Hake.

�39

George:

Yes.

Interviewer: Isn‟t that something?
George: Now that‟s McGraw.
Interviewer: Did your grandmother outlive your grandfather?
George:

No, she died when she was about seventy-eight. Yes.

Interviewer: Boy, he was how old when he died?
George:

ninety-three.

Interviewer: Wow, ninety-three. That‟s fantastic
George:
There were a lot of write-ups about him. He was a very, very colorful man and a
dominate personality. These are some of the things that happened at the Hake house. There‟s
picture over there of the Naomi over there.
Interviewer: Burns, Wednesday morning, Grand Rapids Michigan. One of the heroes of the
Naomi disaster - William Hanrahan. Thrilling tales. Grand Rapids people aboard were saved, but
lose their clothes and their valuables. Bet they lost some wedding presents too, didn‟t they?
George:

Yes.

Interviewer: Oh, my, that was a big thing, worse than the cyclone. They did lose some lives,
though?
George:

Oh, yes. Obviously mostly crewmen there, that burned to death

Interviewer: No, isn‟t that something. Now here it is, soloist….

George:

Now is that my sisters?

Interviewer: Ruth Jackoboice, is that your sister?
George:

Yes, I use to have twin sisters Helen and Ruth, and they played the French Harps.

Interviewer: I talked to one of your sisters; here it is Miss Gast - that is you!
George:
Interviewer:
George:

Yes.
I talked with her, and she‟s very much involved in the money raising thing...
She…

�40

Interviewer: … for the diocese, isn‟t she? She said she would just as soon I talk to you. She
would get back to me later. She apparently has put a lot of time and a lot of work….
George:

Yes, she has…

Interviewer: She was very kind.
George:

She is in Florida now; she will be back sometime this week.

Interviewer: Were the regarded in town as an eccentric family in town?
George:

No, let‟s see. I guess a qualified yes.

Interviewer: What made people in town feel like that about them? Clannishness mainly?
George: Obviously, they were very family oriented. They had strong convictions on thrift and
economy which really is no fault.
Interviewer: That‟s really a virtue, but they were pretty well known for ….
George:
I know they used to have a decorator years ago and he was highly regarded an as a
friend, very fine and very expensive decorator, but say he painted the outside, they had these big
beams. Well Mrs. Voigt, she just get a fish pole after he‟d left and would put white gauze on the
end a fish pole and she‟d reach up there to make sure he painted it all. If it was wet, it was all
right, otherwise he‟d missed and she‟d want to know about it.
Interviewer: I heard another tale like that. This old gal whose father built the Voigt house, did a
lot of work for her father before that. She used to take the bills around and present the bills, and
she‟d go to the mill office with the bills and she said he‟d always say, “Oh, John. How did John
get at this figure? This is too high, this is too high.” And her father said, “Now he‟ll say this to
you. He‟ll say John‟s just robbing me blind.” And he said, “Well you just stay there and you
don‟t say anything. And then he‟ll pay you.” And she said it was just like that. You‟d go in and
he‟d say “Oh John is jus robbing me. This should be, no this price is too high.” Then she waited
a while and wouldn‟t say anything and then he‟d pay her. And she said every time she went to
collect there was always this little act they went thru.
George:
You know, there was one controversy, not so many years ago I would say prior to
Ralph‟s death, when the mills were sold to the City of Grand Rapids and the city I think was
wise in acquiring the land, because we are now one of the few cities in the country, who own
both sides of the river in the downtown area with rare exceptions. I think that is a great thing they
are striving to do but the Voigts were highly criticized for that because according to the reports
they got anything from five hundred and eight thousand to five hundred and say fifty thousand
dollars for it. But what most people entirely forget is that the Voigts owned the riparian rights
and by riparian natural waterways laws and so on, the city never could have acquired that unless
the Voigts had surrendered those rights, which meant later they could make a parking lot and

�41

eventually a planned plaza on the west side. See these canals fed the water wheels for the Voigt
mills. And also, something and I am almost positive I am correct because I had it confirmed by
one of the leaders of at least one of the hospitals. George Welsh, and I always regarded George
Welsh, I disagree violently on many things. Did you know him at all?
Interviewer:

I never knew him, but I wish I had, he was quite a colorful character?

George: Yes, he was and naming the auditorium was a well deserved honor for him. But when
they say they paid five hundred and some-odd thousand dollars for these old mills. And the city
did. But they not only got the mills and the land on which they stood, they also got the land to
make a parking lot out of that land. But most importantly the Voigts have never been given credit
for it to my knowledge; they gave a hundred eighty thousand dollars to St. Mary‟s Hospital and a
hundred eighty thousand to Butterworth Hospital. And there is three hundred sixty thousand
dollars and everybody said they were getting top dollar but no one comes forth and says they
also gave it back.
George: I had a friend and maybe this is analogous, but his family, and they lived in Grand
Rapids, are just notorious and they were just plain stingy. And yet I seen this fellow would turn
right around and argue with the newspaper boy whether it should be two cents or three cents.
And on one occasion he turned right around and he gave me season tickets to a most coveted
football season. He said, Ah, here you take them.” I said I would pay he said, “No, I don‟t want
anything.” And I think the Voigts in some ways were like that.
Interviewer: They wanted the value for their money.
George:

Yes.

Interviewer: Of course one of the things we forget, and I think it is true here, is the genius of
Grand Rapids has been the businessmen. Extremely capable businessmen. And I was sort of
interested in meeting you because one thing about my study of Grand Rapids, it is a natural
course of events in America now. But one of the things I think made Grand Rapids strong was
home-owned business. You know, that the people that own the businesses live here.
George:

Yes,

Interviewer: And there were so many businesses, were home owned businesses right here that
were strong and diversified. And of course, that‟s passing on.
George:

You take with us now, we‟re. There are no outside owners it is all family.

Interviewer: But you are becoming more and more rare here in town.
George:
Yes, that‟s right. But as I say we have been in business continuously as a family in
the machinery business in Grand Rapid without interruption for a hundred and eighteen years.

�42

Interviewer: That‟s a record.
George:
Very frankly, we enjoy it tremendously; we have an awful lot of fun. We sell
throughout the United States and about twenty-five foreign countries.
You‟ve got a really good booming…

Interviewer:
George:

But we work at it, and we enjoy working at it.

Interviewer: And you have three sons in the business?
George:

Three sons in the business, all three sons are in the business.

Interviewer: I thought maybe when Mrs. Jackoboice said that one of them was writing about
Wordsworth; maybe you had a college professor in the family.
George:
I think it started out that way, I think he likes that as an avocation but I think he likes
business better. He might not agree with me, but he is down there all the time. Take my wife.
Her people have always been in business, both of my grand fathers were in business and my
father was. Business talk has always been dinner table conversation as a lot of these old family
names in town. You know the Herpolsheimers, Wurzburgs and the Voigts. You weren‟t overly
impressed because their names came up so often.
Interviewer: And they were your neighbors and you saw them every day.
George:
Just like, here we were flying to Europe a few years ago and actually the man was
Don Maxwell who was the editorial chairman of the Chicago Tribune and we were flying
together he and his wife and Helen and myself we were visiting, half-way across the ocean and
he rather facetiously at the end said well George you know you have been name dropping a little
bit. I said Mr. Maxwell I disagree, it just so happens that because these people made some mark
on the world and they are well known figures, doesn‟t mean your name dropping or I am.
Actually, I know these people, I know them very well and they are personal friends of mine. I
don‟t believe I am doing any more than giving them their modest merit.
INDEX

B

G

Bedford, Mr. · 4

D
Dubee, Charles · 24

Gast Family · 1, 4, 40
Gilmore Family · 25
Gore, Arthur · 34, 35

�43

H

P

Hake Family · 1, 2, 3, 5, 6, 9, 13, 16, 18, 19, 20, 22, 23, 27,
28, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39
Hanchett, Mrs. · 24
Herpolsheimer Family · 9, 11, 43
Hunting Family · 19

Pantlind Family · 18, 24, 25

J
Jackoboice Family · 1, 2, 9, 10, 33, 39, 40, 42
Jungbaecker, John · 3, 16, 30

K
Kusterer Family · 20, 36

L

R
Rasch Family · 3, 9, 23
Rindge, Warren · 30

S
Schulz, Mildred · 3
St. Cecilia Music Society · 23
St. Mark‟s Episcopal Church · 8
St. Mary‟s Church · 13, 39, 41
Stiles, Mary · 23
Sweet, Martin · 22

U

Ladies Literary Club · 23
Leitelt Family · 12

University of Michigan · 6, 33

M

V

McGraw Family · 35, 39
McLachlan, Mrs. · 3, 30
Monarch Road Machinery Company · 9

Voigt Family · 2, 7, 8, 10, 11, 12, 13, 18, 21, 23, 24, 28, 29,
37, 41, 42, 43
Voigt, Clara · 1, 4, 13, 33

O

W

Orth, Mary · 3

Whinery, Mrs. · 24, 25
Women‟s City Club · 22, 23

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                  <text>Ottawa County (Mich.)</text>
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                <text>Architect's drawing of the exterior of the Collegiate Center of Grand Valley State College, later named Seidman House, by Morris Jackson circa 1962. In the drawing, the Collegiate Center is featured in the center and framed among the wooded ravines, with people seen inside the windows of the building and outside enjoying the outdoor patio seating.</text>
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Interview Log Sheet
Storyteller: John Engberts
Interviewer: Mondy Jamshidi
Date: 10/16/06
Time: 42:50
Facilitator: Elaine D.
Location: CMF- Kalamazoo
(1:00) Talk about how they’ve been friends since High School
(1:15) When John first became involved in Pace Jam, he had been in a lot of
fights, had to go to court
(2:13) Describes relationship he was in right before he joined Peace Jam
(4:52) He describes what Peace Jam is- brings Nobel laureates to Kalamazoo high
schools
(6:00) Met Archbishop Desmond Tutu who talked about ending apartheid
(7:08) 10th anniversary conference of Peace Jam, Dali Lama attended in Denver,
how it had an impart on students who go
(10:35) His favorite project through Peace Jam
(12:45) What impact he thinks Peace Jam service projects have on Kalamazoo
(14:32) Describes his childhood- violent alcoholic father, killed his mom when he
was 3, Josh had to watch “I made a decision I never wanted to be like my Dad”
(16:30) Peace Jam provides and outlet
(17:35) Mondy talks about how proud he is of Josh, Josh talks about how helpful
Mondy is; “Most inspirational person”
(19:50) Josh talks about being taught that showing emotion is considered a sign
of weakness
(20:32) His adoptive dad committed suicide- his reaction, his sisters’ reaction,
mom’s reaction
(23:56) How his life changed since Peace Jam
(24:40) His birth dad is getting out of jail soon, learning how to deal with stress
productively

�(25:15) Josh had an eating disorder in high school, wasn’t eating, gained 40
pounds since joining Peace Jam, also no more headaches/ thanks to Mondy’s
massage skills- more about dealing with eating disorder and support from Peace
Jam
(29:00) Mondy talks about Peace Jam “a little slice of heaven”
(30:14) How he dealt with Columbine- he lost a couple of friends n the shootinghasn’t watched TV at home since that day
(33:20) Hard to go to 10th anniversary conference because it was in Denver, ran
into another friends who was a survivor and that made it easier
(36:55) How he ended up at Peace Jam, people donated money so he could pay to
go to the conference
(39:00) How they met and became friend- they even have the same birthday
(41:55) Mondy reflects on memories and moments they’ve shared

�</text>
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                    <text>Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
World War II
Bobby Jones
Total Time – (40:44)

Background

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He was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan on July 6, 1925 (00:34)
He stayed in one place when he was a kid
His dad worked at a local bakery (01:03)
o He then went to work at Ramona Park in East Grand Rapids, Michigan
He was an only son (01:18)
He graduated from Creston High School (01:26)
o There were roughly seven or eight black kids in the school
o For the most part, they were treated well (01:45)
He played in the band in school
His father had a job throughout the 1930’s (02:16)
He heard about Pearl Harbor through the news (02:46)
o He heard on the radio
o The Monday after Pearl Harbor was almost a typical day (03:03)
Before Pearl Harbor happened, he knew very little of what was going on in the
war
He graduated from high school in 1943 (03:47)
He received a draft notice two months after he graduated
He did not have many plans for after high school

Enlistment/Training – (04:11)
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


After he received the draft notice, he went to North Carolina (04:19)
o Before he left for North Carolina, they stopped in Detroit, Michigan
(04:36)
o The racial composition of the men leaving was mixed (04:58)
When he left, he was leaving straight for the Marines
o He had been asked if he wanted Army or Navy – he responded by telling
them that he preferred the Marines (05:31)
While he was going through the northern states, the races were separated on the
train
o He did not sleep on the train (06:16)

�













o The train did not go straight into the camp
When he was first greeted when he arrived at the camp, the men were treated
normally (06:46)
He was then sent to Montford Point Camp (06:57)
o It was a camp set up specifically for black Marines
o He arrived during the day (07:12)
The Drill Instructors treated the troops like their inferiors (07:47)
o They taught them where they were and what they were there for
 They also taught them what they could do and what they should
not do (07:54)
In Boot Camp training he was taught to obey
o The majority of the exercise was marching (08:37)
o They did not receive any weapons training
o The Marines were strongly encouraged to make their beds properly and
keep their uniforms clean (08:55)
 They were just told to do it
 If they did not do it, they would get hit (09:08)
o They were trying to break people down so that they would obey orders
o He knew nothing about the Marine Corps when he entered (09:34)
Most of the men that he trained with moved out (10:00)
o He stayed in North Carolina
At Montford Point Camp he helped train some new recruits coming in (10:28)
The Drill Instructors at the camp were white (10:43)
o He had more contact with the Drill Instructors than the Officers
He was eventually shipped to Okinawa (11:10)
o He had previously been in Iwo Jima (11:28)
o He was there in the early part of 1945 (11:34)
At Montford Point, he had to get up at 6 A.M. and would work until 4 P.M.
o There were no opportunities to go off base
 He was part of the base personnel (12:17)
o When he left, some of the black men had become Corporals or Sergeants
o When he left he was a Corporal (12:36)
o He had been following the news of the war – he would hear and read
about it
 He was just wondering where he was going to go (13:00)
o They trained him on rifles during his year at the camp
o He had not shot a gun when he was growing up (13:47)
Montford Point Camp celebrated the holidays but he does not remember anything
special

Active Duty – (14:58)


When he found out that he was leaving Montford Point, he was taken to Virginia
where he went aboard a ship headed to the Pacific

�


















o He got sick on the voyage (15:41)
o The ship sailed in a convoy (15:49)
o They traveled through the Panama Canal
o All of the soldiers being shipped over were black (16:32)
o At this point he was not with his unit
On the way through the Pacific, the convoy stopped in Guam (17:08)
When he arrived at Iwo Jima, there was still some shooting going on (17:27)
o He served on guard duty while there (17:59)
o He cannot remember hearing any shooting going on
o He was stationed near an air strip
He is then sent to Okinawa (19:05)
o He was assigned to clean (19:53)
When on Iwo Jima, he saw some Japanese aircraft and Japanese men
o The aircraft were kamikaze planes or bombers (20:56)
o He was never very close to any of the fighting or air attacks
He always did what he was told to do
He was glad that he did not have to be a combat soldier (22:31)
He remembers hearing about the atomic bomb
When he was on Guam or any of the other islands, he never saw any of the
civilian populations (23:33)
Before the black troops arrived in the Pacific, the white soldiers had told all of the
women that the black men had tails and to stay away from them (24:16)
After he came back to the United States he stayed in the military
o He asked if he could reenlist and stay (25:15)
o He became a Drill Instructor
He enjoyed being a Drill Instructor because it was different and he had never been
in that position before (25:27)
o The men below him would listen to what he said
o He did not receive any training
o It was new to have black instructors (26:02)
As an instructor he has more freedom to leave the base if he would like
o Drinking was the only thing to do for soldiers that left the base (26:59)
When he was training men, there were a couple of instructors
o He was typically responsible for leading marches (27:36)
He slept in separate barracks from the men
o The white men were segregated from the black men (27:48)
After his reenlistment was up, he decided that it was time for him to leave (28:13)
o He had no idea what he wanted to do after the military
When he was a Drill Instructor he would make men salute him while standing
over a barrel of water. Consequently, they would fall into the barrel because they
would bring their feet together (28:29)
o The same kinds of things were done to him when he was in training

�After the Service – (29:14)
















When he was discharged in 1948, he returned home to Grand Rapids, Michigan
(29:15)
He looked for a job when he was back
He never considered going to college (29:28)
He eventually found a factory job (29:40)
o He stayed in the factory for nearly forty-two years (29:51)
o He worked on an assembly line
o He became the shop steward (30:09)
He got married in 1949
o His wife was someone that he had not known from before he went into
service (30:33)
His cousin would write to him while he was in the service
o They grew up together
o Some of his aunts would send some letters as well (31:06)
 His aunts took him under their wing after his mother died when he
was very young
He had three children
His wife was strict (32:28)
o She was the first black telephone operator in Lansing, Michigan
o When she got engaged, she asked for a transfer – they had to take a vote in
Grand Rapids, Michigan to see if they were willing to accept her (32:47)
 She worked for the company for over forty years
 She had received her job in Lansing with help from the NAACP
(National Association for the Advancement of Colored People)
(33:17)
 They were forcing some of the companies to hire people of
color
o His wife’s brother was Malcolm X (34:01)
 Malcolm X would go to their home (35:12)
 There was no honor at the time of being relatives with Malcolm X
 It would be private when he would go over
He was the only member of his family in the service (36:32)
If he had to do it all over again, he would (36:40)
o He would also pick the Marines
The service helped him learn to obey
o He truly enjoyed his time in the Marine Corps (37:26)
He received a Congressional Gold Medal for his time at Montford Point Camp
(40:04)
o He said that they did not need to give him a medal for his time there
because he did it to serve his country and that is what he wanted to do

�</text>
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                  <text>The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.</text>
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                <elementText elementTextId="765929">
                  <text>Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American</text>
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                <elementText elementTextId="765930">
                  <text>Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American</text>
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                  <text>Michigan--History, Military</text>
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Boring, Frank</text>
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                <text>Bobby Jones was born in July of 1925 in Grand Rapids, Michigan. He graduated from Creston High School where he was one of eight African American students. After receiving his draft notice two months after graduation, Bobby left for Montford Point Camp in North Carolina for Basic Training. He stayed and helped train new recruits once Basic Training was completed. Bobby then boarded a ship in Virginia for Okinawa. En route to Okinawa, he passed through the Panama Canal, Guam, and Iwo Jima. When he returned to the United States, Bobby reenlisted for four years and became a Drill Instructor. He remembers the training facilities being segregated between blacks and whites. In 1949 he married the sister of Malcolm X.</text>
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                <text>Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives</text>
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                    <text>[Page 1]
Know all men by these presents, that I Abraham Brower of the City of New York for and in consideration of
the sum of One Hundred Dollars Current money of the State of New York to me in hand hand paid at and
before the ensealing these presents, by Isaac Jones of the said City the receipt where of I do hereby
acknowledg, and myself to be therewith fully satisfied content and paid; have granted bargained sold
released and by these presents do fully clearly and absolutely grant bargin sell and release unto the said
Isaac Jones A negro man named George Teabout aged about Thirty five years to have and to hold the said
negro man George Teabout unto the said Isaac Jones his Executors administrators and assines forever and
I the said Abraham Brower for myself my heirs Executors and administrators do Covenant and agree, to and
with the above named Isaac Jones his Executors and administrators and assigns to warrant and defend the
Sale of the above named negroman against all persons whatsoever in witness whereof I have herewith set
my hand and seal this sevententh day of September in the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and
five Signd Sealed &amp; Delivered in the presence of John D. Brower John Bogart Abraham Brower

�[Cover]

Bill of Sale of A Black man named George Teabout

�</text>
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                  <text>Civil War and Slavery Collection</text>
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                  <text>A selection of correspondence, diaries, official documents, photographs related to the American Civil War and to the institution of slavery, collected by Harvey E. Lemmen. The collection includes a selection of documents from ten states related to the ownership of slaves and abolition, correspondence and documents of soldiers who fought in the war and from family members and officials, diaries and letters of individuals, and a collection of mailing envelopes decorated with patriotic imagery.&#13;
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                    <text>The Michigan Philanthropy Oral History Project
Interview Log Sheet
Storyteller: Olivia Maynard
Interviewer: S. Olaf Karlstrom
Date: 10/17/06
Time: 37:44
Facilitator: N. Pumilia
Location: Kalamazoo
(1:00) OM discusses her introduction to philanthropy, through examples of
family and community.
(2:30) Karlstrom, mother worked in Detroit, taking care of young Swedish
immigrants with Detroit Symphony Orchestra and Detroit Opera
(4:00) Mother named Swedish American of the year and gave speech in
Stockholm, Sweden
(5:00) Maynard discusses her father’s philanthropic work, difference with OM
and OK was that they included their children in the Heron Oaks Foundation,
tends to focus on educational activities, through their children’s interests often
determine where money is gifted. Money to victims of Hurricane Katrina in New
Orleans, LA
(8:10) Maynard talks about her dad, “a bit of a dictator” wanted to make his own
decisions about gifting
(10:45) Both their careers have led them to philanthropic groups, knowledge of
process. Talk about how grant giving is determined within the Heron-Oaks
Foundation
(15:30) Karlstrom discusses his father’s giving money to the University of the
South
(16:00) Detroit-Swedish Council, Karlstrom’s mother started this program
(17:20) “True rewards” of helping people unexpected gratitude, passing forward,
a legacy, how to encourage dialogue in America
(20:00) Move towards working to reconcile gaps in American culture
(23:30) Influx of Latino population, creating understanding, dialogue, working in
city of Flint, MI
(26:00) Moving Democratic getting anti-racism training. C. Stewart Mott
Foundation. Children moving out of house, scope widening

�(28:00) Discussing how their children will arrange the Heron-Oaks Foundation
(31:00)Fluidity of the foundation’s intent, Seattle, WA, Minneapolis, MN
(34:00) Philanthropic world can fill in gaps that government leaves
(35:00) Working with state and county government and private sector to
revitalize down town, Flint, MI.

�</text>
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                <text>Olivia Maynard, President of the Heron Oaks Foundation in Flint, Michigan, talks with her husband Olof Karlstrom, Treasurer, about the influence of her Swedish mother's volunteer work in Detroit on her understanding of philanthropy, their intentions for their children to manage the foundation in the future and how the Heron Oaks Foundation is partnering with the public and private sector to revitalize downtown Flint.</text>
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                    <text>The Michigan Philanthropy Oral History Project
Interview Log Sheet
Storyteller: Kathy Agard
Interviewer: Jim Kelley
Date: 10/10/06
Time: 39:01
Facilitator: Elaine D.
Location CMF-Kalamazoo
(0:55) How Kathy got involved in CMF, talks about getting debate scholarship- 1st
time she learned about philanthropy
(2:45) Jim talks about how he became involved in philanthropy, his backgroundFord Foundation Scholarship to U Chicago
(4:15) His mentor, John Gardener- When he and Kathy first met through CMF
(5:20) Talk about how they aren’t able to go back and thank people- motivated
then to pass on philanthropy through Learning to Give- Youth grantmaking, talks
about ignorance of philanthropy
(7:37) Kathy describes the context for starting Learning to Give, what was going
on in the U.S. and around the world
(9:30) Role of schools, Jim’s work with National Board Certification (for
teachers)- talks about education in the U.S. and how he became involved in
Learning to Give
(12:45) Kathy talks about what Jim brought to the project
(14:25) What Jim learned from teachers, talks about his values for education and
democracy- how it affects his philanthropy- how it relates to constitutional
rights- Learning to Give empowerment not just charity
(17:45) Knight Foundation- their work to educate about 1st Amendment
(19:00) More about John Gardener’s influence on Jim (President of Carnegie
Corporation of New York and was in LBJ’s cabinet), what Jim learned working
with John
(22:10) The unusual community and network of foundations in Michigan and
Kathy’s vision for the future
(23:23) Dottie Johnson- head of CMF, her role as leader in Kellogg
(25:08) Relationship between market economy and philanthropy

�(28:00) Young people: interested in philanthropy but disillusioned by
government- need for all sectors in the U.S. to be strong (for profit, government
and non-profit). Jim wants more freedom to go between sectors
(31:30) Kathy’s goals at Johnson Center at Grand Valley State University, Jim’s
goals in his consultative work
(33:15) Jim hopes her center will develop new leaders
(34:05) His work with Asia society, his other interests (technology in schools)
(37:05) Their hopes for their grandchildren, what they’ll know about
philanthropy
(38:40) Jim mentions the idealism of youth

�</text>
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