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https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d78e7b118ca35982d4ec4f69155f379b.jpg
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Faces of Grand Valley
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Grand Valley State University
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University Communications
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A non-comprehensive collection of photographs of Grand Valley faculty, staff, administrators, board members, friends, and alumni. Photos collected by University Communications for use in promotion and information sharing about Grand Valley with the wider community.
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1960s - 1990s
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GV012-03. University Communications. Vita Files
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Grand Valley State University
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eng
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AndersonDaniel_Photo08
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Grand Valley State University. University Communications
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Andersen, Daniel
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Daniel Andersen, Physics
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University Communications. Vita Files, 1968-2016 (GV012-03)
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https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/500d3eb5307224fe8950a824bb9ad373.mp4
eaed1cca096c3ae173c090db7f0c68af
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f3051aa91efc605e250c63dc615d12fd.pdf
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PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veteran’s History Project
Vietnam War
Bob Anderson
Interview Length: (02:41:51:00)
Pre-enlistment / Training (00:00:08:00)
Anderson was born in August 1948 in Kalamazoo, Michigan, where his family lived for a
few years before Anderson’s father decided to go back into the Air Force; Anderson’s
father had served as a pilot during World War II and had grown tired of civilian life, so
he applied for, and the Air Force granted, re-entry into the service (00:00:08:00)
o When Anderson’s father re-enlisted, it was towards the end of the Korean War,
and he served not a combat pilot but a personnel transport pilot (00:00:59:00)
o Anderson’s family ended up living in several different places, including
Charleston, South Carolina, and Florida as Anderson’s father trained with
different types of aircraft (00:01:21:00)
o For the majority of the time before Anderson himself joined the service, his father
was stationed at Andrews Air Force Base in Maryland, where Anderson received
the majority of his schooling and graduated from high school (00:01:32:00)
Anderson graduated in 1966 and proceeded to attend junior college; during that time,
Anderson ended up living with his uncle in the Gulf Coast region of Mississippi, where
the uncle was a professor at one of the local colleges (00:01:46:00)
o After a year, Anderson transferred from the junior college to Michigan State
University in Fall 1967 (00:02:12:00)
o While in college, Anderson felt that he did not know how to study properly; he
would read the necessary texts for hours but he could not translate the reading to
re-gurgitation on tests and as a result, Anderson ended up being academically
dismissed from the university in Spring 1968 (00:02:23:00)
o While at Michigan State, if there were protest movements on the campus,
Anderson was unaware of them; he was insulated growing up and although his
parents allowed him to do what he wanted, Anderson grew up oblivious to world
events (00:03:07:00)
After Anderson was forced out of Michigan State, he packed all his belongings up and
moved back to Maryland to live with his parents, while feeling like he had failed
something because he had done well in the junior college (00:03:38:00)
o Although he could have gone to junior college again in Maryland, something in
the back of Anderson’s mind told him that he was not ready to try again yet; he
talked with his father and his father thought it might be a good idea for Anderson
to join the service (00:03:57:00)
If he joined the service, Anderson would receive free training and when he
got out of the service, if Anderson did not want to go back to college, then
he would at least have training for a trade (00:04:18:00)
�
o Anderson’s father suggested refrigeration equipment repair because people used
air conditioners and everybody had a refrigerator, so Anderson enlisted in the
Army to be a refrigeration equipment repairman (00:04:36:00)
Anderson ended up enlisting in the Army on his mother’s birthday: May 6th, 1968
(00:05:12:00)
o When he enlisted, Anderson had a guaranteed enlistment for the school that he
wanted, which happened to be at Fort Belvoir, an Army base just over the
Potomac River and ten miles away from Anderson’s home (00:05:32:00)
Anderson did his basic training at Fort Benning, Georgia; had he gone to the refrigeration
repair school, Anderson would have then gone to Fort Belvoir but during the reception
period, Anderson scored high enough on the tests to be considered for Officer Candidate
School (OCS) (00:06:04:00)
o For two years before he enlisted, the Vietnam War was an un-event for Anderson;
even though the division he would serve with, the 1st Air Cavalry, had fought in
the Ia Drang valley, that was Anderson’s senior year in high school and he was
still oblivious (00:06:48:00)
o Anderson had the choice of going to OCS because he qualified and once he said
yes, his waive his guaranteed right to go to refrigeration equipment repairman
school (00:07:10:00)
Therefore, after completing his basic training, Anderson went to Fort Dix,
New Jersey (00:07:20:00)
o Anderson feels that the basic premise behind basic training was the instructors
wanted to tear the men down and expunge any thoughts of the civilian word so
they could re-make the men as soldiers (00:07:33:00)
Therefore, there was a lot of physical torment by the instructors, who were
allowed to yell profusely at the soldiers; although the instructors are still
allowed to yell today, they have a limit on what they are allowed to call
the soldiers (00:07:50:00)
During Anderson’s training, the soldiers had no recourse but to say “yes
drill sergeant” and do whatever the instructor wanted (00:08:03:00)
o The soldiers learned how to drill and march, as well as the manual of arms for the
M-14 and rifle marksmanship (00:08:16:00)
o Not everyone who went through basic training ended up with a combat unit; there
were many soldiers ended up going to specialized schools, such as refrigeration
equipment repair or welding (00:08:32:00)
That being said, the training was oriented towards infantry tactics, such as
target detection, night division, escape & evasion, etc. (00:09:15:00)
o For the most part, Anderson’s adjustment to military life was fairly easy,
primarily because his father was career Air Force and from afar, Anderson had
some understand of what he had to do, mainly not arguing with everybody and
doing whatever he was ordered to do (00:09:34:00)
o In basic training, if someone told you to get down and do a bunch of push-ups,
then you got down and did as many as you could (00:10:04:00)
There was no debate with the drill sergeants; if they said stand on one foot
in the corner, the soldiers said “yes drill sergeant” then went and stood on
one foot in the corner (00:10:21:00)
�
Nevertheless, there were a few soldiers who could not be broken or did not
want to be broken and Anderson suspects that most of those soldiers were
draftees; they had been doing whatever they were doing when Uncle Sam
knocked on their door and said they would report (00:10:41:00)
Anderson suspects the draftees were rebellious because they did
not want to be there, whereas his situation was different because he
had enlisted; although his feelings might be similar to theirs,
Anderson kept his head down and his mouth shut (00:11:05:00)
o When he enlisted, Anderson was in better physical shape, so the physical aspects
of the training, such as running, were not an issue; the only thing Anderson really
had trouble with were the monkey bars, which the soldiers had to do every day
before they could eat breakfast (00:11:34:00)
Anderson was not very good at first because he did not have much upper
body strength but eventually, he learned how to do them (00:12:01:00)
o Anderson’s basic training lasted for eight or nine weeks, after which he went to
Fort Dix, New Jersey for his Advanced Individual Training (AIT) (00:12:13:00)
In a lot of ways, AIT was similar to basic training, although the training was much more
geared towards the infantry, including more weapons training, radio procedure, field
exercises, tactical training and less drill and ceremony; by this time, most of the soldiers
knew where they were going (00:12:26:00)
o While in basic training, the drill sergeants for the most part had served in Vietnam
but in AIT, some of the instructors, such as the training company commander, had
not served a tour; Anderson vaguely recalls the platoon sergeant in AIT had
served in Vietnam but he cannot be sure (00:13:07:00)
o During AIT, the instructors tried to simulate what the soldiers would experience
in Vietnam as best they could, although they could not replicate the physical
aspects, such as the terrain, humidity, and monsoons or the jungle (00:13:54:00)
o As part of the overall training, the soldiers went through two or three days of
training in how to interact with the civilian population, although Anderson does
not remember it taking place in a mock Vietnamese village; he knows some of the
other AIT locations, such as Fort Polk, had them (00:14:24:00)
After completing AIT, Anderson had a couple of days before he had to report back to
Fort Benning for OCS, which he did in the middle of September 1968 (00:15:14:00)
o There were about one hundred and twenty other soldiers who started the course
with Anderson, which was designed to turn them all into the lieutenants for the
infantry (00:15:34:00)
o The class days were long and although the academics were hard for some,
Anderson did not have any trouble with that nor with the physicality of the
training (00:15:51:00)
o In his platoon of twenty soldiers, Anderson figures that around half were college
graduates and the other half were like Anderson, with a couple of years college
schooling (00:16:43:00)
A large number of the soldiers in Anderson’s platoon were also married,
around thirty percent; any of the soldiers who had a degree and were
married were draftees because they would not willingly enlist if they
already had a four-year degree and a family (00:17:28:00)
�
Many of the soldiers brought their wives with them and Anderson assumes
it was difficult for the soldiers to have their wives five miles off-post but
have to be stuck with one hundred other guys (00:17:58:00)
o The training the soldiers received tended to be similar to what they had already
received, only more intense; there was a lot of map reading, artillery firing and
learning how to adjust fire, etc. (00:18:26:00)
There was also a lot of classroom work, such as a film which the
instructors would stop suddenly, say the company commander had been
killed and ask Anderson what he would do; when this happened, hopefully
Anderson was awake enough to give a good answer and after he did so,
the instructors analyzed his decision-making before continuing the film to
see if what Anderson had said was correct (00:18:53:00)
It was always “go, go, go” from reveille until the end of the day,
the soldiers ran everywhere, it was hot, etc. and when the soldiers
got into an air conditioned building, it seemed like as soon as they
sat down, they went to sleep (00:19:42:00)
The instructors had ways to deal with the sleeping soldiers and
sometimes, they were humorous; the instructors would tell
everyone who was awake to ignore the next command, then they
would yell out, “on your feet” (00:20:16:00)
o The soldiers were conditioned to respond to that command
even if they were half asleep, so when half the class stood
up, they were chastised by the instructor (00:20:35:00)
o OCS lasted for twenty-three weeks; although it was not like the World War II
model of the “ninety-dya wonder”, the soldiers who completed the course still
received that moniker (00:20:52:00)
After the soldiers completed the OCS course and their orders came down, some stayed at
Fort Benning to go into the tactical unit, while others, like Anderson, stayed to go into a
basic training unit; however, each soldiers received a furlough for about a week or two
before they had to report to their new assignment (00:21:14:00)
o Anderson graduated from OCS on March 29th, 1970 and reported back to Fort
Benning in mid-April, where he stayed for three months before receiving his
orders to go to Vietnam (00:21:38:00)
o The role of a 2nd Lieutenant in a basic training company was “to be seen and not
heard”; they were “gentlemen” by an act of Congress but many new lieutenants
were unsure of themselves and since the drill sergeant cadre knew what they were
doing, if a 2nd Lieutenant was smart, he got out of their way to let them do their
thing while watching to learn, which Anderson tried to do (00:22:04:00)
They had a good training company commander who had served with the
101st Airborne Division while the company first sergeant was a two-tour
Vietnam veteran, as well as Korea (00:22:51:00)
All of the other drill sergeants had been to Vietnam, they knew what they
were doing, and they did not need Anderson telling them what to do, so he
tried to stay out of their way (00:23:05:00)
�
All that being said, the lieutenants still received a lot of responsibilities,
such as being the mess officer, the Army emergency relief officer, the
blood-drive officer, etc. (00:23:26:00)
They were trying to give the lieutenants some responsibility, not
necessarily to build up their self-esteem but to make them feel
comfortable with the idea of giving orders; unless they had worked
in a previous job as a supervisor, most of the lieutenants had never
told people to do things (00:24:02:00)
They tried to make break the lieutenants in and make them feel
comfortable in a uniform that said eighty percent of the people on
the base had to salute them (00:24:38:00)
o Once he said that he was not going to go to be a refrigeration repairman,
Anderson knew his path was chosen and there was not question in his mind that
he would ultimately end up in Vietnam (00:25:14:00)
However, Anderson did not dwell on that fact; it was what it was, he had
raised his hand to volunteer and if the Army kept him at Fort Benning for
two years, then so be it (00:25:32:00)
The senior lieutenant in the training company had gone through
that; when he graduated from Armor OCS, he stayed at Fort
Benning for two years, but Anderson did not have any grand
illusions that the same thing would happen to him (00:25:50:00)
Anderson did the best he could as a 2nd Lieutenant and if the time
came, then he would go on to the next step and do as best he could
then too (00:26:12:00)
When his orders finally did come down, Anderson was naturally apprehensive; unlike
being a civilian, Anderson received news from the Army every week about the war and
he was able to see who had been killed and how many were officers (00:26:30:00)
o In some ways, Anderson was glad; he was almost certain he would eventually go,
he had been at Fort Benning long enough to get the assignments down pat, so it
was time to go do what Anderson had been trained to do (00:26:53:00)
Deployment (00:27:20:00)
Once the orders finally arrived, Anderson had to report to Travis Air Force Base in
California, although he does not remember how exactly he got to Vietnam itself
(00:27:20:00)
Anderson does remember arriving in Vietnam and while most soldiers remember it being
smelly or hot, Anderson does not recall the smell; the soldiers arrived in Vietnam at
night, meaning it was dark, and Anderson does remember the bus ride to the 90th
Replacement Battalion (00:28:01:00)
o On the bus ride, all the windows on the bus were open but were covered in a wire
mesh and when one of the soldiers asked what the mesh was for, the bus driver
said it was to keep the VC or somebody else from throwing a hand grenade into
the bus (00:28:20:00)
o That was the first indication that the soldiers were in a real situation; they were
riding in screened-in buses so people could not throw grenades inside and kill
them (00:28:44:00)
�
The soldiers arrived in Bien Hoa and went to the 90th Replacement Battalion, which was
the unit that every newly-arrived soldier went to and from there, the soldiers were
assigned to different units throughout the country (00:28:57:00)
o Anderson spent three days at the replacement battalion, received his uniforms,
although he did not know where he would be assigned, and after a couple of days,
orders came down that he was assigned to the 1st Air Cavalry Division
(00:29:16:00)
While in OCS, the officers listed the three locations where they would like
the serve and Anderson ended up listing Vietnam number three and maybe
Germany as number one (00:29:42:00)
However, when he arrived at the First Team Academy (FTA), they asked
Anderson which unit in particular he would like to join, although he did
not know units from anything (00:29:59:00)
Some officers who had been indoctrinated longer, mainly West
Pointers, chose specific units, such as Custer’s regiment or another
unit, to go to (00:30:34:00)
They had a map of the area and Anderson remembers looking at
the 2nd Battalion of the 7th Cavalry regimental area and seeing that
their headquarters was surrounded by a bunch of firebases, figured
it would be a safe location, so his first choice was to join the 2nd of
the 7th (00:30:50:00)
However, the Army had already decided where Anderson would
go and instead of going to the 2nd of the 7th, he went to the 1st of
the 7th, but that was not big deal to him (00:31:11:00)
The soldiers were at the First Team Academy for about three days, where
they received a weapons familiarization course, did some repelling, etc.;
more than anything, Anderson believes the academy was designed to get
the soldiers acclimated to the heat (00:31:34:00)
o After the three or four days at the FTA, Anderson received orders for the 1st of the
7th; the Army led him by hand because “there is nothing dumber than a 2nd
Lieutenant”, so when Anderson asked how to get to the 1st of the 7th, the Army
said they would take him back to Bien Hoa and tell him right where he needed to
go (00:31:54:00)
At the time, the 1st of the 7th was stationed in III Corps, to the north and west of Saigon,
fifteen miles from the Cambodian border (00:32:37:00)
o Immediately around the base camp, it was in the middle of a rubber plantation but
the further out the soldiers got, to the individual fire bases, it was double and
triple canopy jungle with bamboo and clearings interspersed and for the most part,
the terrain was flat (00:32:58:00)
Initially, Anderson took a C-7 Caribou ride to Quan Loi, where someone knew he was
coming because when he got off the C-7, a sergeant was waiting for him (00:33:32:00)
o When he first arrived in Quan Loi, it seemed like Anderson had been transported
to the moon; there was not anybody he knew and Anderson had orders to get on
the C-7 and when he arrived in Quan Loi, there would be someone there to meet
him (00:33:56:00)
�
o When he arrived, Anderson was walking around with his eyes wide, wondering
what he had gotten himself into, and someone called to him, asked if was going to
the 1st of the 7th and told him to jump in the jeep, which took him to the battalion
headquarters (00:34:15:00)
o After Anderson reported to the headquarters, the other officers told him to go
through a set of doors so that he could talk with the colonel commanding the
battalion (00:34:42:00)
The sequence of Anderson meeting the colonel was similar to the scene in
film Apocalypse Now when Martin Sheen’s character first meets Marlon
Brando’s character (00:35:05:00)
Anderson and the colonel talked for a few minutes, during which the
colonel gave Anderson a Garreyowen crest, which was the regimental
crest for the 7th Cavalry, and told Anderson he was being assigned to
Alpha Company and who the company commander was (00:35:40:00)
o When he arrived at Alpha Company’s rear area, the first sergeant was there and
he knew Anderson was coming; Anderson spent no more than two days getting
his equipment, including his rifle, helmet, poncho, pack, etc. (00:36:31:00)
o Then, on either the second or third day, the company in the field was being resupplied, so they told Anderson the day before that when they went out to resupply, Anderson could go and join the company (00:36:57:00)
The next morning, Anderson gathered all his equipment and boarded the Command and
Control helicopter flying out to the company on Firebase Wescott (00:37:15:00)
o When Anderson jumped off the helicopter with the rest of the soldiers, he asked
what he had to do and was told to wait until the re-supply helicopter arrived; the
company was in the field and they would be moving to a re-supply site where
Anderson would go an meet them (00:37:44:00)
o It seemed like a couple of hours passed before the re-supply helicopter arrived at
the firebase and when it did arrive, Anderson hopped aboard and the helicopter
took him to where the company was (00:38:18:00)
o It was an interesting helicopter ride to the company; Anderson believes the
helicopter crew chief saw he was a newly-arrive lieutenant, so he radioed the pilot
that information and suggested giving Anderson a ride to see if they could make
him throw up (00:38:47:00)
As the helicopter flew out to the company, the pilot made the helicopter
bob and weave, flew along the knap of the earth, etc. but Anderson
thought the flight was great and similar to a roller coaster (00:39:12:00)
During the flight, Anderson sat on a crate with his feet spread apart so he
would not fall out and after awhile, the helicopter crew tired of the erratic
flying, figuring they could to make Anderson vomit (00:39:26:00)
On the other hand, every other helicopter ride that Anderson had was not
as erratic and wild as that first flight (00:39:40:00)
o They eventually dropped Anderson off with the company and when he asked to
speak with the company commander, the other soldiers pointed him out, so
Anderson when to talk with him, who welcomed him to Alpha Company and
assigned Anderson to be the mortar platoon leader, which Anderson did not think
was a good idea (00:39:55:00)
�
Although he had familiarization and knew about mortars, being mortar
platoon leader was not exactly what Anderson wanted to do; still, he held
his tongue and asked where the mortars were (00:40:51:00)
At that time, the soldiers in the platoon were carrying the 81 mm mortars
in the field; the base plate alone weighed eighty-one pounds and the
soldiers also had to carry to launch tube, tripod, aiming sticks, as well as
two rounds of ammunition apiece (00:41:06:00)
Anderson stayed the mortar platoon leader until the next re-supply and
believes the company commander placed him in charge of the mortar
platoon as part of his acclimation; Anderson was wearing his rucksack,
carrying his equipment, and was far enough away from the fighting that he
could see what was going on but not be involved in it (00:41:25:00)
o At the next re-supply, the 2nd platoon lieutenant moved up to be the company
executive officer and Anderson was his replacement (00:42:04:00)
o In the time Anderson was the mortar platoon leader, the soldiers fired the mortars
a couple of times, if only to get ride of some of the weight, although they never
fired them with permission from the company commander (00:42:22:00)
On some occasions, other soldiers in the platoon would go into an area but
before they did, the mortar platoon would launch several rounds into the
area; the soldiers in the platoon knew what they had to do and Anderson
never had to check to make sure everything was ready (00:42:39:00)
When Anderson joined the company, they stayed in that location
overnight and the next morning, a patrol was going out and the captain
wanted some mortar rounds into that vicinity (00:43:52:00)
When Anderson joined the platoon, he had two E-6s, the platoon sergeant and the man
training to be the platoon sergeant; the lieutenant Anderson was replacing moved right
out of the platoon when Anderson arrived (00:44:26:00)
On the first morning Anderson was in charge of the platoon, the captain told him he was
going to be leading a thousand meter patrol and the soldiers were going light, meaning
they were only taking their weapons and ammunition while they left their rucksacks
stayed behind with the company (00:45:21:00)
o The company had a scout dog with them and the captain told Anderson to take the
dog with him; Anderson gathered his sergeants and told them the platoon had to
do a thousand meter patrol and then return to the company (00:45:42:00)
o The sergeants said okay and after tell them the platoon would leave in ten
minutes, Anderson talked with the dog handler to explain what the plan was, who
said okay as well because the handler knew why he was the there and what the
dog’s job was (00:46:12:00)
o Anderson does not recall if this was the patrol where he started walking where he
normally would but if not, then it was shortly thereafter (00:47:09:00)
During a normal patrol, the column would have a point man, a slack man
to cover the point man, then a squad leader and then Anderson himself;
Anderson could not run anything if he was at the rear of the column and
he could not know exactly what was going on (00:47:24:00)
Anderson also had a radio operator and he ended up walking
directly behind Anderson in the column (00:47:58:00)
�
o The patrol had gone around seven hundred meters when the point dog alerted;
although Anderson did not know what was going on, soldiers who had worked
with dogs before did and they told Anderson that the dog had sensed something
near the patrol (00:48:08:00)
o Anderson began to ask in his mind what he had to do next because it was not like
OCS when they would stop the film and ask him; Anderson called one of his
sergeants, asking him to come to the front of the column and when the sergeant
asked why, Anderson said the point dog had alerted, which was a none event for
the sergeant because he had been in-country for six months (00:49:06:00)
When Anderson asked the sergeant what he should do, the sergeant said
they would normally recon by fire, a term Anderson was not familiar with;
the sergeant explained what to do but suggested Anderson radio back to
the company beforehand and tell them what they were planning to do,
otherwise, the men back at the company would hear the gunfire and
assume the patrol had made contact with the enemy (00:49:39:00)
o Anderson radioed back to the company, saying the point dog was alerted and they
were planning to recon by fire; the soldiers did the recon by fire but received no
enemy return fire, so they continued the patrol, performed their sweep and
returned to the company (00:50:16:00)
o Years later, other soldiers in platoon said they could not believe Anderson made
them go through the entire patrol; whenever they went before on a long patrol, the
lieutenant before Anderson would lead the soldiers out about five hundred meters,
where they would sit and relax before going back to the company (00:50:45:00)
o Nothing happened on the first patrol and Anderson is thankful for that because he
was still a green lieutenant (00:51:19:00)
After about three weeks, the company moved from Firebase Wescott to Firebase Jerry in
the middle of November (00:51:42:00)
o The company was picked up in the field and then air assaulted into a new area of
operations, Firebase Jerry; it was late in the day and Anderson’s platoon was the
last platoon into the area (00:52:18:00)
o Just as the platoon was dropped off outside the firebase, they came under mortar
attack; all of the mortar rounds hit up front, wounding several soldiers severely
(00:52:33:00)
The attack was only a few mortar rounds, after which the platoon made it
inside the firebase, where a doctor tended to their wounded (00:53:12:00)
o In the field, the company had around one hundred and ten soldiers and Anderson
had around twenty-five soldiers in his platoon; the most soldiers Anderson had in
the field at one time was twenty-five and the fewest was seventeen (00:53:43:00)
o After the soldiers left the firebase, they set up for the night, although nothing
happened that night (00:54:12:00)
The next morning, the entire company was moving; Anderson’s platoon was not on point
when a couple of NVA ran along a little trail coming from the right and although the
point element fired towards them, the soldiers did not hit anyone (00:54:28:00)
o The captain wanted to see where the NVA had come from, so the point element
walked up the trail for about thirty or forty meters before someone ordered them
to get further away from the trail (00:54:42:00)
�
o The soldiers had just seen an enemy on the trail and the enemy most certainly
knew the soldiers were there because the soldiers had fired on them, so the
company moved off the trail (00:55:05:00)
o When his platoon reached the trail, Anderson looked at the trail itself, which was
hard packed from numerous people walking on it; then, as he looked up the trail,
Anderson figured it would be a good spot for the enemy to fire on them and no
sooner had he said that then the enemy started firing (00:55:24:00)
As quite often happened, there was gunfire but the bullets were going
everywhere because the enemy was not taking the time to aim properly;
the initial firing might be aimed but the response was not (00:56:06:00)
o Again, it was late in the day and the captain said the company was going to set up
a defensive position for the night; as the soldiers began preparing the position, the
captain called Anderson over and said he wanted Anderson to go parallel to the
trail for four or five hundred meters so he could ambush the enemy (00:56:28:00)
o Anderson said okay, so he and his men found the trail, set up their claymore
mines and then backed off to wait for somebody to stumble down the trail; it
rained that night and the mosquitoes came out but fortunately, nobody came down
the trail but the soldiers could hear chopping in the distance as the enemy chopped
down trees to make bunkers (00:57:01:00)
The soldiers could also hear laughter, which makes Anderson believe the
soldiers on the ambush were within a couple of hundred meters of the
enemy’s position (00:57:58:00)
In the morning, the soldiers picked up their equipment and back tracked to
the company (00:58:15:00)
o Trails crisscrossed the whole area and the soldiers could see where the enemy had
rested in the daytime and nighttime from the debris of cooking fires (00:58:22:00)
o Every two or three days, the soldiers either would be fired on or would fire on the
enemy, although they did not take many casualties (00:58:52:00)
After about a week in the new area of operation, the company got involved in a large
firefight lasting for about five or six hours (00:59:06:00)
o Again, Anderson was somewhat lucky because his platoon was walking last that
particular day and it was mostly the front of the column that received the brunt of
the attack (00:59:17:00)
o Two platoons really got into it with the enemy and although there was nobody
killed, there were sixteen or seventeen wounded soldiers who needed to be medivaced out (00:59:26:00)
o It was a longer day for Anderson because he was not under the direct fire; he and
his men were merely sitting guard, acting as a company reserve, although
Anderson did have to send his machine guns up because the other platoon’s
machine guns malfunctioned (00:59:41:00)
Anderson’s machine gunners were not happy about having to go into the
fight because they had already been in the field for six or seven months
and had seen a lot of action, but they still went up and Anderson believes
the two machine gunners were a key piece of the battle (01:00:17:00)
Both gunners were meticulous about keeping not only their machine guns
but their ammunition clean, while other gunners were not (01:00:42:00)
�
o The soldiers also had to pass ammunition from Anderson’s platoon to the other
platoons because they were in the jungle and the platoons could not be re-supplied
with ammunition from the air (01:00:58:00)
It eventually became nerve-wracking because not only did the two
platoons in the fight not have much ammunition, but neither did
Anderson’s platoon (01:01:08:00)
o The fight continued until late in the afternoon before the soldiers had to set up a
base camp (01:01:24:00)
o The next morning, Anderson’s platoon was the least beat up, so they had to lead
the company back to the firebase, which was nerve-wracking as well because the
area had been so well worked over by artillery and air strikes that it looked like a
tornado had moved through; intermixed with the destroyed jungle were human
body parts and bloody bandages (01:01:38:00)
Although the soldiers were hit bad, Anderson believes the enemy was hit
worse and they were now gone, of course (01:02:49:00)
The purpose of that particular mission was to move into the area and assess what the
attacks had done and they ended up getting ambushed (01:03:24:00)
o Overall, the company’s mission was to aggressively and actively patrol to find the
enemy, and if successful, destroy him (01:03:56:00)
o When they were in the area, the company was fortunate because there was not a
system of enemy tunnels; there were bunkers and the major battle was against a
small series of bunkers (01:04:21:00)
o The North Vietnamese were excellent soldiers and had been fighting for twenty
years, meaning their camouflaging ability was excellent; there were times the
soldiers would step, look down, and they would be standing directly in front of a
bunker, which happened to Anderson a couple of different times (01:04:57:00)
Anderson would be fourth in the column when he found the bunker, which
meant three other soldiers did not see it and in those situations, the bunker
was not occupied (01:05:19:00)
o By the time of the six hour fight, Anderson had been in country for three weeks
and he had a much better understanding of what was going on (01:05:43:00)
Eventually, another new lieutenant joined the company and Anderson was
happy to see him because it meant Anderson was no longer the dumbest
lieutenant in the company (01:05:53:00)
However, the lieutenant had only been in the company for a couple of
weeks before the fight began but he still did a marvelous job in handling
the situation; Anderson wonders what would have happened if the roles
were reversed and he had been in the fight (01:06:07:00)
The lieutenant’s point man spotted the NVA claymore and was able to
alert the lieutenant, who in turn alerted the captain so that by the time the
enemy detonated the claymore, there was no one around to be seriously
wounded in the explosion (01:06:19:00)
The most powerful weapons in the platoon were the M-60 machine guns and when the
soldiers found an enemy bunker, if it was occupied, then they tried to get as much
firepower against it was they could (01:06:58:00)
�
o Once the soldiers managed the suppress whatever the enemy was trying to do to
them, if they could, then they wanted to pull back so they could use explosives
against the bunker (01:07:18:00)
o If they were using artillery against a bunker, under normal circumstances, the
soldiers were working with another group of soldiers, normally a forward
observer for the artillery unit, and as Anderson recalls, the soldiers could not get
artillery fire closer than six hundred meters unless they were in direct contact;
then, the fire had to be danger close rules (01:07:38:00)
However, the vast majority of engagements were twenty-five meters or
less and although he had great confidence in the artillery, Anderson would
never call artillery fire that close unless it was a last resort (01:08:10:00)
There were situations that called for fire that close but only as the last
resort for the soldiers (01:08:43:00)
Anderson was a platoon leader from October 1969 until the middle of February 1970,
after which he was removed from the field and given a rear job as a reward for doing
good work in the field (01:08:51:00)
o The rear job Anderson received out the be the most miserable job Anderson ever
had in his life; while in the base camp, Anderson was in charge of one quarter of
the base camp’s defense (01:09:29:00)
At the time, Anderson was still as lieutenant while the three other men in
charge of the other sections were all captains (01:09:42:00)
They gave Anderson two other soldiers to work with and all three ended
up working what seemed twenty-one hours a day; the three had to make
sure the trip flares were out, all the defenses were set, etc. and they did not
have any help (01:09:50:00)
To make it worse, Anderson had to report to the most obnoxious
lieutenant colonel that ever wore a silver oak leaf (01:10:13:00)
Anderson and his men had to report to the lieutenant colonel every
day and he wanted to know all the minute details of what the
defenses were and it eventually reached the point that it was too
much for Anderson (01:10:26:00)
Anderson worked extremely hard every day but the work did not seem to
make any large contribution; if he needed supplies, Anderson did not
know where to go or what to do while the captains, who had many more
years of service, knew what to do and where to go (01:10:40:00)
o The job lasted for about three weeks before Anderson was called to the battalion
headquarters to talk with the battalion XO, a major, who said he had both good
news and bad news for Anderson (01:11:07:00)
The major said that he knew Anderson and the lieutenant colonel were not
getting along although Anderson was working hard, so Anderson was
going back into the field (01:11:42:00)
Anderson said that he only had one question and when the major asked
what it was, Anderson asked if this was going to negatively affect his
officer efficiency report and the major said no (01:12:18:00)
The major also said Anderson was not going back to Alpha Company but
was going to Charlie Company, something Anderson was not enthused
�
about; when Anderson asked if he had to go to Charlie Company, the
major said he did (01:12:38:00)
o When he received the news, part of Anderson felt good he was out of the job in
the rear but part felt bad because he had to go to Charlie Company and begin the
process of training soldiers all over again (01:13:27:00)
The next day, Anderson reported to the firebase where Charlie Company was stationed
and when he arrived, the company CO was in the medical bunker being worked on by a
visiting dentist (01:13:52:00)
o Anderson went into the bunker to report and the CO asked if Anderson had ever
been in the field before; Anderson replied that he had been in the field with Alpha
Company for four months (01:14:11:00)
The CO assigned Anderson to lead the 3rd Platoon and after the CO told
him where the platoon was located on the fire base, Anderson went to the
platoon and introduced himself (01:14:30:00)
o When Anderson arrived, the old 3rd Platoon leader left and went back to the
battalion rear area to take over Anderson’s old job (01:15:16:00)
o After a couple of days in the field, it became clear that the CO did not fully
understand what he was doing; although he was an armor officer, he was not from
the same mold as Anderson’s CO in Alpha Company but Anderson did the best
that he could with the cards he had been dealt (01:15:43:00)
o The terrain Charlie Company operated in was similar to the terrain that Alpha
Company had operated in, with a lot of bamboo and things like that (01:16:10:00)
o There were only two times when Anderson took his boots off in the jungle, with
the first time was the night before Alpha Company had the large contact with the
enemy in November (01:16:21:00)
Firebases had what where labeled “mad minutes”, although they seldom
lasted a minute, and their purpose was to not only use up any bad
ammunition, but to also just fire around the base to try and hit anyone
trying to sneak up on the base (01:16:36:00)
That night, the company was so close to Jerry that the bullets were flying
past the men; Anderson jumped into a foxhole that happened to be full of
termites and within a matter of seconds, they were biting his feet, causing
him to jump out of the hole (01:17:10:00)
o The second time Anderson took his boots off was when he was with Charlie
Company; it was pitch black outside, Anderson took his boots off and around ten
or eleven o’clock, he heard one of his M-60s start firing (01:17:41:00)
Anderson stumbled around trying to find his boots and his glasses before
eventually making his way over the foxhole where the M-60 machine
gunner was located (01:18:15:00)
When Anderson asked what was going on, the gunner said he thought he
saw something, which caused Anderson to berate the gunner for firing the
M-60 and giving away the heavy-firepower position (01:18:22:00)
Then, a voice in the darkness said he had ordered the machine gunner to
fire and that turned out to be the company CO; Anderson told him it was a
bad idea because they were going to have to move the gun in the dark,
which was going to make a lot of noise (01:18:46:00)
�
The CO countered that there had been something, and Anderson
looked out and asked where, the CO fired his pistol, with tracer
rounds, where he thought there was a dead NVA (01:19:05:00)
Anderson could not see the body but he suggested shooting an M79 round out, so Anderson got his platoon’s M-79 grenadier, fired
a round out and said that if there was anything there, it was either
gone completely or dead from the M-79 round (01:19:43:00)
However, the CO said someone needed to go out to check, although
Anderson questioned the order because the soldiers did not know what
was out there; there might actually be someone out there, he might only be
wounded, and the CO wanted them to crawl out there (01:20:10:00)
The 1st Platoon leader, who was a friend of Anderson, eventually came up
and asked what was going on, so Anderson explained that the CO believed
there were NVA outside the perimeter, which was why the machine gun
fired, the CO wanted to go out and check if there were any bodies, and
Anderson was going to go with the CO (01:21:03:00)
The 1st Platoon leader said he would go out as well, so it was the
CO and two lieutenants who should have known better crawling
outside the perimeter, although they had let the perimeter know not
to shoot if the soldiers heard anything (01:21:45:00)
From where the gunner was to where the CO thought the enemy soldier
was located was about thirty meters but being in front of a rifle company,
there was always the possibility somebody did not receive the message
and when they heard movement outside the perimeter, they fired;
moreover, all it took was one guy shooting before the entire company
began shooting (01:22:26:00)
Eventually, Anderson told the CO it was a bad idea for the three
men to be outside the perimeter; they should return to the
perimeter and check the location in the morning (01:22:52:00)
The CO must have agreed with Anderson because the three
officers crawled back to the perimeter and when they checked the
next morning, there was no evidence of any NVA being where the
CO thought he was (01:23:28:00)
The incident with the M-60 gunner occurred in early April and on April 26th, the
company became involved in a hugely horrific firefight (01:23:54:00)
o The 1st Platoon was performing a “cloverleaf” patrol while Anderson’s third
platoon had been left behind as an ambush; however, while performing the patrol,
the 1st platoon was ambushed themselves (01:24:14:00)
o As Anderson was moving through the company’s position, the CO hurried past
him, told Anderson to take command of the perimeter because he, the CO, was
going out to kill an enemy with his knife, and Anderson said okay (01:24:23:00)
Anderson did not question what the CO was going to do because the
bravado was part of his persona and that was the last time Anderson saw
the CO alive (01:24:49:00)
�o The CO went out with the 2nd Platoon while Anderson sat in the perimeter
listening to the sounds of the enemy firing their weapons, intermittently mixed the
sounds of the 1st Platoon firing back (01:25:16:00)
o While he was commanding the perimeter, Anderson was able to hear with the CO
and the 2nd Platoon were doing but not the 1st Platoon because both their radios
had been shot (01:26:04:00)
o Eventually, there was a call from the CO and 2nd Platoon telling Anderson to
bring the 3rd Platoon out because the 2nd Platoon was pinned down; Anderson
acknowledged, saying the platoon would be out there momentarily (01:26:22:00)
Anderson yelled over to his platoon sergeant, a newly-arrived E-5, to get
the soldiers ready to move out to do what they could do (01:26:40:00)
o When the 3rd Platoon left, the final platoon in the company, 4th Platoon, stayed
behind to guard the perimeter; however, at the time, they were not a complete rifle
platoon, which was why they were staying back to guard the perimeter and they
were only to assist the rest of the company as a last resort (01:27:14:00)
o As Anderson stood up to get ready to move out, an enemy B-40 or RPG round hit
near the platoon, knocking down three or four of Anderson’s soldiers; although
the round did not knock Anderson down, a piece still hit him (01:27:41:00)
Looking around, everyone in the platoon except for five soldiers stood up,
so they got the medics over to the wounded soldiers, then proceeded to
move out and assist the other platoons, although there were then only
around fifteen soldiers in the platoon; Anderson was wounded as well but
it was a miniscule wound compared to regular wounds (01:28:01:00)
o It was easy to follow the trail the CO and the 2nd Platoon had made, although the
soldiers did not know where anyone, friendly or enemy was; however, following
the trail was the most expedient way Anderson had of finding the friendly forces
that were under attack (01:28:27:00)
o The platoon did not go very far, only around one hundred meters, and as always
happened, there was a lot of firing and then there was nothing; by the time
Anderson made it up to where the headquarters section was, the firing had
somewhat stopped (01:28:45:00)
Anderson remembers the company’s forward observer, a large man
nicknamed “Bull”, hugging the ground and looking up at Anderson, telling
him to get down; although Anderson had heard all the firing, there was
nothing happening at the moment (01:29:18:00)
o Off to Anderson’s left was a large termite mound, behind which was the radio
operator talking with the battalion, who was screaming into the radio that all the
soldiers were going to be killed; meanwhile, off to Anderson’s right, he could see
medics working on a soldier (01:29:50:00)
o Anderson then went over to the termite mound and grabbed the radio away from
the hysterical soldier; Anderson reported that he had just arrived and would
update the battalion when he figured out what was going on (01:30:29:00)
The battalion commander eventually got onto the radio and told Anderson
to update him as soon as Anderson knew anything; Anderson handed the
radio back to the soldier and ordered him to not talk on the radio or answer
any calls (01:31:10:00)
�o Then, Anderson asked the soldier where the CO was, but the soldier did not
know; Anderson thought it was weird that both the radio operator for the battalion
and the company radio operator, who was nearby, were not with the company CO,
although it was not the time to berate them (01:31:41:00)
Anderson then asked if they had any communication with the 1st Platoon
and by the amount of firing that had gone on, Anderson figured the
platoon had been wiped out (01:32:07:00)
o Anderson placed a gun team on the other side of where the medics were working,
kept the other team close to him, and told his radio operator to wait nearby while
he, Anderson, went up to find out what was going on, although in retrospect, it
was dumb because he did not take the radio operator with him (01:32:23:00)
o Anderson began crawling but he had not gotten more than ten feet when the
fighting started up again and it was more personal for Anderson because it
seemed like everyone was shooting at him (01:32:53:00)
Although he realized it was not a good situation, Anderson kept crawling,
even though he might be the only soldier out there and the enemy all
might be able to see him, as they were all shooting at him (01:33:20:00)
o Eventually, the 2nd Platoon leader low-crawled past Anderson as fast as he could;
the 2nd Platoon leader said the company CO was dead and when Anderson asked
where his platoon was, said that he did not have any idea (01:33:50:00)
When Anderson asked if he was sure the CO was dead, the platoon leader
said he had crawled right past the body (01:34:10:00)
o The platoon leader had not stopped crawling past Anderson as he told him the
news and Anderson, realizing he could not leave the platoon leader to get back
and get on the radios to report, turned around, crawled back to the termite mound
and called the battalion commander, saying they had a situation and Anderson did
not really know what was going on (01:34:26:00)
Anderson reported that the company CO was dead and as he made the
report, Anderson watched the medics work on a soldier with a sucking
chest wound, who, despite the effort of the medics, ended up dying while
Anderson was watching (01:34:38:00)
The battalion commander continued question Anderson for information
about the fight that Anderson did not know because by then, the brigade
commander had become involved (01:35:07:00)
Finally, Anderson heard the brigade commander come over the radio and
order the battalion commander to stop pressuring Anderson and allow him
to develop an understanding of the situation; the battalion commander
acknowledged and Anderson never had any more trouble from him after
that (01:35:34:00)
o As they were sitting there, one of Anderson’s machine gun teams asks if they had
any people out there; Anderson said that he did not think so and the gunner said
there was somebody running away (01:36:16:00)
Not knowing if they were friendlies or not, Anderson told the machine
gunner to watch them; then, they heard sound off to the left and it turned
out to be the remnants of the 1st Platoon, which had somehow managed to
disengage the enemy and retreat (01:36:41:00)
�
o
o
o
o
o
o
o
Anderson asked the platoon leader if he had all his soldiers with him and if
there were any from the 2nd Platoon; when the platoon leader said he had
all his soldiers and the soldiers from 2nd Platoon were behind him,
Anderson told him machine gunners to fire at anything outside the
perimeter because they were the enemy (01:37:00:00)
Anderson called the battalion commander back, saying the 1st and 2nd platoons
had made it back, they had a large number of casualties, and he still did not know
the status of the company CO but he would find out (01:37:22:00)
The 1st Platoon leader was sitting behind the termite mound, huffing and puffing
because he had taken over one of his M-60 machine guns when the gunner was
wounded until the gun was destroyed (01:37:49:00)
Anderson went up and said the 2nd Platoon leader had said the CO was
dead; the platoon leader agreed and when Anderson said that they could
not leave the body out there, the platoon leader said he was not going to go
back out there (01:38:11:00)
Anderson could recover the body but the platoon leader said he
was not going out there, so Anderson said okay (01:38:42:00)
By then, the firing had stopped because what Anderson’s M-60 gunner had seen
was the enemy having enough and retreating back because by then, Anderson had
been calling in air strikes and additional support (01:38:52:00)
The 11th Armored Cavalry had been moving through the area with their
APCs and tanks and the NVA had built bunkers near to where the armor
had moved, thinking that if the soldiers went through once, then maybe
they would go through again and they could attack them (01:39:18:00)
Anderson grabbed another soldier and said they were going to check things out;
the soldier was new enough that he said okay as opposed to asking if Anderson
was nuts (01:39:47:00)
Anderson and the soldier went out about twenty-five meters and found the
body of the CO, who had been shot in the forehead; there was not any
horror to seeing the dead body but Anderson questioned where the CO’s
glasses were (01:40:03:00)
The other soldier grabbed the CO’s arms while Anderson grabbed his legs
and they carried the body back to the termite mound, where Anderson
radioed the battalion commander that they had recovered the CO’s body
and everyone was moving back to the original perimeter (01:40:43:00)
The CO had weighed around one hundred and fifty pounds, so Anderson ordered
one of the M-60 teams to give him their gun while they carried the body back to
the perimeter (01:41:24:00)
Although there was no incoming fire, there already having been lulls in
the fighting and the soldiers did not know for sure that the fighting was
over (01:42:00:00)
All the soldiers eventually made it back to the perimeter and they started the
process of medevacing the wounded out (01:42:22:00)
After the battle, the “B” Company commander had heard Anderson’s company
commander had been killed, so he grabbed his rucksack and led the company for
the rest of time the company was in Cambodia (01:43:19:00)
�
o Anderson remembers telling one of the other officers who was there that he would
never see another day like that and it was the worst day he would ever see,
although when the company arrived in Cambodia, that day would be a good day
compared to what they experienced in Cambodia (01:43:53:00)
Three days after the major firefight, when Charlie Company was back on the firebase,
Anderson’s former company, Alpha Company, got involved in similar fight, probably
with the same group of enemies, and had a lieutenant and sergeant killed (01:44:25:00)
o Typically, when a company was be beat-up, they would come back to the fire
base to “decompress” and Charlie Company was in the middle of
“decompressing” when Alpha Company got beat-up (01:44:53:00)
o They could not leave Alpha Company in the field, so they brought them back to
the firebase and told Anderson he was transferring back to Alpha Company to be
the executive officer (XO) (01:45:07:00)
The Alpha Company commander who had led the company while Anderson was there
had left in March and moved up to the battalion S-4 (01:45:30:00)
Alpha Company XO / Into Cambodia (01:46:17:00)
The job of an XO was really to just take over command of the company in a situation
where the company commander has been killed (01:46:17:00)
o The XO also had to sign to property book accounting for all the weapons and
equipment in the company; whenever Stateside, the company commander signed
for it but in a combat environment, the XO signed for it (01:46:30:00)
Whenever the company was on a firebase, Anderson would travel out to the company
every day then return to the battalion headquarters at night; it was mostly administrative
work because the company 1st Sergeant really ran the rear area and if they had a good 1st
Sergeant, then they let him do his job (01:47:06:00)
o Anderson would not necessarily call the job a promotion for good work but
someone could be a bad XO, so long as they had a good 1st Sergeant; however, if
someone was a bad XO and the had a bad 1st Sergeant, then the soldiers in the
field did not get what they needed (01:47:43:00)
o It was Anderson’s job to run interference if the 1st Sergeant ever had any issues,
although he rarely did because even lieutenants would defer to a 1st Sergeant until
the lieutenant found out if the 1st Sergeant was good or not (01:48:12:00)
The company eventually moved into Cambodia but Anderson would only go into field in
Cambodia every three days, when the company was being re-supplied (01:48:43:00)
o When the company moved into Cambodia, the brigade headquarters stayed at
their original base camp and the battalion had a tactical operations center at a
firebase in Cambodia, which was where the battalion commander would be
stationed (01:48:55:00)
o Similar to when Anderson first arrived, he would wait at the firebase until a resupply helicopter showed up, fly with it out to the company, take care of any
business he had with the company commander, then fly out when the last resupply helicopter left (01:49:25:00)
Anderson is not aware of any times a helicopter was shot at while flying
either to or from the company’s location; still, the only way to know was
if they heard a round impact or the door gunner saw tracers (01:50:02:00)
�
Anderson was fortunate because he never had to land in a “hot LZ”, when
the helicopter flew to the landing zone like an assault and the enemy was
at the LZ and engaging the soldiers (01:50:23:00)
It happened to the XOs after Anderson and the XOs before
Anderson, but never to Anderson (01:50:39:00)
o Like most people at the time, Anderson believed the discussions about the domino
theory of Communism and part of the reason the Americans went into Cambodia
was along those lines, to help the South Vietnamese in their fight against the
Communist North Vietnamese (01:51:08:00)
o All the soldiers had heard both the president and individual stories of how the
enemy would engage American soldiers then retreat across the Cambodian
border, where the Americans could, theoretically, not follow them (01:52:09:00)
After the April 26th engagement but before he rejoined Alpha Company,
Anderson was in a briefing where the officers were informed they would
be going into Cambodia, although no more than thirty miles, would stay
there for sixty days in an effort to find enemy supplies and disrupt enemy
activities and they did not know what the soldiers would find once in
Cambodia, only that they could get the soldiers on the ground and get
them out (01:52:41:00)
Charlie Company was actually supposed to be the first company to go in,
but the fight involving Alpha Company occurred and Anderson joined
them, so going into Cambodia did not affect him (01:53:22:00)
o The plan originally called to load the ARVN (South Vietnamese) forces, fly them
out to a firebase, then pick-up the American forces to flying into Cambodia;
however, someone figured the ARVN forces would run away after they reached
the firebase, so the plan was scrapped (01:53:38:00)
Instead, they took the ARVN forces into Cambodia first and the
Americans in second (01:54:01:00)
o The 1st of the 7th ended up taking a large number of casualties when they went
into Cambodia; they were definitely the hardest hit battalion in the Air Cav. and
possibly the hardest hit battalion out of all the units (01:54:11:00)
There were one hundred and fifty American soldiers killed over all the
units and Charlie Company alone lost sixteen soldiers, in just forty-five
days of combat (01:54:32:00)
o Anderson stayed as Alpha Company XO the entire time the company deployed
into Cambodia, working on administrative aspects for the company (01:54:53:00)
o The fighting the soldiers encountered in Cambodia was brutal; as determined as
the NVA forces were in South Vietnam, it seemed like they were more serious
when fighting in Cambodia because they had more to defend (01:55:09:00)
Nevertheless, while the Americans took casualties, the NVA were beaten
up pretty well in Cambodia as well (01:55:34:00)
In the years since he served, Anderson has read books about the war which have made
him more disenchanted with the war, such as a book about a former National Security
Advisor suggesting President Kennedy was considering the removal of the military
advisors from Vietnam when he was assassinated in 1963s (01:55:39:00)
�
o There was a group of soldiers that Anderson knew who died in Vietnam and it
leaves him with a sense of sadness, not only for the American soldiers who died
but also for the North Vietnamese who died; somewhere among the dead might
have been the cure for cancer and Anderson is not naïve enough to believe it
would only be an American who could come up with a cure (01:56:31:00)
Before leaving Vietnam, Anderson spent two weeks as the acting company commander
because the company commander had gone on R&R (01:57:15:00)
o A new company commander took over following the end of the Cambodian
campaign and by that time, Anderson was short time, with only about a month left
in Vietnam until he could go home (01:57:35:00)
o One time when he was out at the firebase, the company CO told Anderson that the
next time he brought supplies, bring all his equipment as well and when Anderson
asked what he meant, the company CO said he was going on R&R (01:57:50:00)
o The CO went on his R&R, Anderson was back in the field for two weeks and
within those two weeks, the company was involved in three different firefights,
although they did not have anyone wounded (01:58:01:00)
o By this time, the colonel who Anderson had had trouble with while working base
defense was now the battalion commander (01:58:21:00)
Anderson recalls doing an aerial recon with the colonel, who pointed out
where Anderson’s company would go, what they would do, and where he
wanted them to end up when they were finished (01:58:44:00)
The company operated in the field for the two weeks and on the day they
were supposed to be extracted, Anderson had the company at the spot the
colonel had drawn on his map (01:59:06:00)
The colonel eventually called Anderson to say he was circling the
location in a helicopter and to tell Anderson to pop smoke;
Anderson said the company was where the colonel had drawn on
the map and they did not hear any helicopters (01:59:13:00)
The exchange between the two went back and forth before the
colonel told Anderson to cut an LZ where he was and report to the
colonel when he got back to the base (01:59:31:00)
The company cut the LZ, extracted everyone a single helicopter at
a time and once Anderson got back to the base, he reported,
expecting the colonel to rip his head off (01:59:50:00)
However, the colonel commended Anderson on doing what the
colonel described as a perfect extraction of a rifle team from the
field (02:00:07:00)
It turned out the colonel had drawn the wrong location on Anderson’s map
but apart from saying he was at the location on his map, there was not
much Anderson could do (02:00:31:00)
A similar situation happened when Anderson had served with Alpha
Company the first time; the company CO said Anderson was in one place,
when in truth, he was in another and the two officers debated for awhile
before the CO said he would shoot a marking round (02:00:54:00)
�
The round went off right over Anderson’s head and when the CO
asked if Anderson was able to get a reading from it, Anderson said
his compass did not work when pointed straight up (02:01:14:00)
For Anderson, the jungle school he went through in Panama was useful only in that he
knew what jungle was like; the school consisted of mostly classroom training, with some
field exercises, including a night course (02:01:51:00)
o There were four lieutenants in the night course, Anderson including, and he
maintains he had neither the compass or the map but the four got horribly lost and
were out all night with mosquitoes the size of hummingbirds (02:02:12:00)
One of the lieutenants ended up losing his watch and the entire situation
was like the Four Stooges (02:02:31:00)
The next day, it seemed like the instructors had a helicopter flying
overhead calling out for the lieutenants and finally, the lieutenants
managed to make it back (02:02:40:00)
o The school helped Anderson because the weather was extremely hot, which
helped prepare him for the weather in Vietnam, although Vietnam was hotter than
Panama, and see what the terrain was like (02:02:54:00)
o The other great thing about the school was it counted against the soldiers time in
the service, so Anderson did not have to spend a full year in Vietnam, only around
eleven months (02:03:16:00)
While in-country, Anderson had very little contact with the Vietnamese (02:03:52:00)
o They did have some former North Vietnamese soldiers who had surrendered,
gone through an indoctrination program, then returned various units to serve as
Kit Carson scouts or interpreters (02:03:56:00)
Early on, when Anderson was with Alpha Company, they had one Kit
Carson scout, who ended up being wounded in the major firefight in
November, after which the company received another (02:04:32:00)
The rehabilitated scouts could have been either officers or enlisted
personnel and served in either the Viet Cong infrastructure or in the
regular NVA (02:04:51:00)
o When Anderson was the Alpha Company XO and serving in the rear, they had
Vietnamese who worked on the base, such as cleaning hooches (02:05:01:00)
o However, while Anderson was out in the field, anyone they ran across was either
trying to avoid bullets or was firing at the soldiers (02:05:16:00)
At the time, Anderson’s unit was not in a populated area but before he got
there, the company was operating in an area with a large number of
indigenous people and there was more interaction then (02:05:29:00)
o Anderson did not have much of an opinion regarding the Kit Carson scouts but it
was not so much a matter of trust (02:06:01:00)
Anderson and a scout could look at the same trail and although Anderson
would see nothing, the scout would see some indication of a large amount
of NVA movement (02:06:13:00)
Anderson did not speak Vietnamese and the soldiers did not speak fluently
English but they managed to let their feelings about the different soldiers
come through clearly (02:06:34:00)
�
The scouts were not part of the ARVNs, so he does not want to
characterize them, except to say the scouts were there and when the
soldiers found a trail, they were able to interpret how many enemy had
passed, although that told the soldiers nothing (02:06:46:00)
o On occasion, the soldiers would capture enemy intelligence and if the scout was
Vietnamese, he could generally read the documents (02:07:18:00)
On occasion, it was not always ugly for the soldiers (02:08:05:00)
o The soldiers would come back from a mission into the firebase and their 1st
Sergeant, who had been a major during the Korean War but was caught in a force
reduction following the war, have steaks for them (02:08:09:00)
One time, the company CO said Anderson was in charge of cooking the
potatoes Anderson had no idea how to cook the potatoes, other than
remembering that on occasion, his mother would boil potatoes in water
(02:08:31:00)
Anderson got a big metal canister from the artillery soldiers, cleaned it
out, filled it with water, and boiled the potatoes; it worked and Anderson
did not get yelled at by the CO (02:08:54:00)
Whenever Anderson was with Alpha Company, the morale was good throughout all three
platoons (02:09:41:00)
o Anderson believes a company’s moral was a function of several different things:
if the company had a good commander, good platoon leaders, good squad leaders
and good platoon sergeants (02:09:53:00)
If any of those were out of whack, then Anderson believes that a
company’s morale will suffer (02:10:10:00)
o When he initially got to Charlie Company, Anderson already had a preconceived
notion about the company CO and he had to try hard to keep his guard up and
only let his true emotions be know to a very small group of people, namely the
leader of the 1st Platoon (02:10:21:00)
Both men had to be careful because if the men saw that the lieutenants did
not have any respect for the company commander, then that would upset
the situation (02:10:48:00)
Another humorous incident occurred when Anderson was stationed on Firebase Compton
with Charlie Company and one day, when he was having bad bowel issues, the company
CO ordered Anderson to take his platoon on a recon patrol (02:11:11:00)
o The firebase was located at the end of an old airfield in the middle of a rubber
plantation and the soldiers could see six hundred meters in almost every direction,
so Anderson thought it would be a good opportunity to let one of his squad
leaders take the platoon out and receive some training (02:11:30:00)
The soldiers never knew when a fight might occur in which the lieutenant
and platoon sergeant were killed and one of the squad leaders would have
to take over command (02:12:09:00)
o Anderson did not receive any argument from the soldiers, although if he had, he
would have figured something else out, because they were not necessarily
concerned about the area (02:12:22:00)
o The platoon started going out and began calling in situation reports, which
Anderson monitored; the next thing Anderson knew, the CO called, asking where
�
Anderson was and when he told him, the CO said to wait and he would be right
there (02:12:37:00)
o The CO showed up a couple of minutes later and began berating Anderson, who
was trying not to throw up; when Anderson tried to explain himself, the CO said
he had ordered Anderson to lead the patrol and to get out there, so Anderson
threw the radio over his back, slung two bandoliers of ammunition over his
shoulders and began walking to where the platoon was, who he had ordered to sit
tight and set up security (02:13:04:00)
o As Anderson was walking, the platoon sergeant ran up, asking what Anderson
was doing, and when Anderson explained it, the sergeant said Anderson could not
go out there by himself (02:13:37:00)
Anderson as the platoon sergeant if he was coming with him and the
platoon sergeant said yes, so Anderson told him to get his equipment
because he was leaving (02:13:56:00)
o The two men walked out of the firebase to the platoon and when he got there,
Anderson radioed back that he had joined the platoon; the CO radioed back to
have Anderson let him know how the patrol went but the platoon ended up
staying where they were for the rest of the day (02:14:03:00)
While Anderson was in Vietnam, his father’s duty station was at Clark Air Force Base in
the Philippines, so Anderson took the R&R he received in the Philippines (02:14:52:00)
o Anderson’s father was then a lieutenant colonel and in charge of scheduling all
planes into and out of the base; he flew over on the R&R plane to Vietnam, where
Anderson and seven or eight other soldiers got on (02:15:05:00)
o The plane landed at an airfield in Manila where the other soldiers got off but
Anderson stayed on while he and his father continued to Clark, where he re-united
with his mother and sister (02:15:36:00)
Everyone else going to the Philippines did their R&R in Manila while
Clark stayed at Clark with his family (02:15:58:00)
While at the base, Anderson played golf a couple of times and went to
Subic Bay with his family (02:16:04:00)
o The R&R flight back to Vietnam from the Philippines originated at Clark, so
Anderson was able to get on there (02:16:12:00)
Post-Vietnam Service / Post-Military Life / Reflections (02:16:37:00)
Anderson left Vietnam in the middle of September 1970 and his enlist ran until March of
the following year; however, there was a slight problem in the orders he received when
he left Vietnam (02:16:37:00)
o Anderson was assigned to Fort Knox, Kentucky and the report date was Sept. 31st
but he knew he would miss that date, so he mailed a copy of the orders to his
father; his father mailed back, saying there was no Sept. 31st, so Anderson went
down to the personnel office, who changed the date to Oct. 31st (02:16:54:00)
After leaving Vietnam, Anderson went back to Kalamazoo, where his grandparents were
living, and stayed there until renting a car and driving down to Fort Knox, where he was
sent to the reception station (02:17:53:00)
o Anderson felt like a fish out of water from the beginning because he was an
infantryman at an armor base and on top of that, Anderson viewed it as they had
�
the audacity to send him to the reception station; he was at least hoping to go to a
basic training unit to teach someone else the lessons he had learned (02:18:18:00)
o Nevertheless, Anderson reported to the lieutenant colonel in charge while wearing
his uniform and all the medals he had earned, including his CIB (Combat
Infantryman Badge); however, Anderson did not have the armor school insignia
on the uniform (02:18:51:00)
Anderson stood at attention as the lieutenant colonel looked him over
before he began berating Anderson for being out of uniform and having
neither an armor or cavalry patch; the lieutenant colonel told Anderson to
have them the following Monday and be ready to work (02:19:33:00)
o Anderson saluted him and ended up driving back home to Kalamazoo; he had
gotten a hat when he was coming that had the cavalry patch on it and when he got
home, asked his grandmother if she would sew that patch and the armor insignia
on his dress uniform (02:20:11:00)
Anderson’s grandmother sewed both patches on so when Anderson
reported on Monday morning, he was in the proper uniform (02:20:46:00)
o They made Anderson a training and operations officer and a friend from OCS was
also stationed on the base, so Anderson was living with him (02:21:06:00)
o Anderson’s friend kept asking if Anderson was going to go back to school when
he got out of the service and when Anderson said he was, the friend asked if he
was not going to stay in the Army; when Anderson said he was not, the friend
suggested Anderson apply for an early out from the service so he could start his
schooling again in January (02:21:35:00)
o Anderson filled out all the necessary paperwork to get an early out from the
military, which the Army accepted; once they realized Anderson would be leaving
at the end of December, they sent him to headquarters company, where he worked
as XO, counting paper clips for the last two weeks of his enlistment (02:22:05:00)
When Anderson had graduated from OCS, he received a letter from a colonel in the
Department of the Army saying the colonel had talked with Anderson’s battalion
commander, Anderson was the type of person the Army needed, they would send him
anywhere he wanted to go etc.; all of which sounded great to Anderson because he had
only been an officer for a couple of months (02:22:50:00)
o All Anderson needed to do was say “yes” to an interview with the brigade
commander, which he did; however, the commander was busy that day, so
Anderson interviewed with the brigade XO (02:23:26:00)
o However, Anderson had not given much thought to re-enlisting until the time for
him to get out of the Army, at which point he figured that he still did not have a
college education and staying in the Army might not work for him (02:23:53:00)
Once Anderson left the military, he went right back to his education; his official last day
in the Army was Dec. 31st and they allowed him two days to travel from Fort Knox to
Kalamazoo (02:24:24:00)
o Anderson signed out of the military and went to his grandparents, while school
started either the next week or the week after, at which point Anderson went back
to Michigan State (02:24:40:00)
To get an early out, Anderson had to be accepted to some university, so he
re-applied to Michigan State while he was still in the Army (02:25:01:00)
�
o When he returned to school, Anderson had a different outlook on the idea of
studying; prior to his service, Anderson would put in the time but he was not able
to express what he had learned on test and although he did not fail any tests, he
had two consecutive terms of a 1.0 GPA (02:25:09:00)
o Anderson was re-accepted to the university unconditionally but he still had the 1.0
GPA and it took him some time to bring the GPA up to a better level
(02:25:57:00)
Going back to school for Anderson was a lot easier, partially because he
was much more mature (02:26:47:00)
o Anderson remembers there being protests in the 1970s, although Anderson does
not remember what they were protesting; Anderson remembers he and some other
students going to watch and he remembers that he and his roommate told the cops
to roll up to windows of the police cruisers where the protesters were held to
make them sweat (02:27:21:00)
o Anderson assumes people knew he was in the service because he continued
wearing his old fatigues, although he did not receive any trouble from people
about his time in the service (02:28:39:00)
o Anderson’s undergraduate degree was in General Business with an emphasis in
Management, while his masters degree was in Personnel Management
(02:29:01:00)
When he graduated with his masters degree, it was 1976, which was not a great year to
try and find a job (02:29:22:00)
o Anderson had been married for a couple of years by then and it even got to the
point that Anderson considered doing what his father had done and re-enlisting in
the military; Anderson had stayed in the IRR (Individual Readiness Reserve),
although he never had to go to meetings (02:29:37:00)
o Anderson eventually wrote to a general, saying he was ready to go back onto
active duty but he never heard back from him (02:30:10:00)
Finally, Anderson got a job with Continental Can Company; he spent a year in New
Jersey before transferring back to Grand Rapids, Michigan when the company opened a
factory there (02:30:36:00)
o Anderson stayed with the company before eventually being laid off, after which
he joined another small company in Grand Rapids, then another small company in
Zeeland, Michigan (02:30:42:00)
o Finally, Anderson joined a packaging company in Holland, Michigan but was
eventually let go from there as well (02:31:12:00)
Following his time in the service, Anderson had a lot of anger issues but until he got into
therapy, he did not know why; he always seemed to have trouble with bosses who he
viewed as incompetent and it did not take too long for a therapist to say that Anderson
was dragging around his experiences from the war and was looking at his bosses, who
may or may not have been incompetent, and comparing him to the officers Anderson had
served under (02:31:26:00)
o However, by the time he learned this, Anderson had stopped work but he wishes
he had known it long before (02:32:28:00)
�
o Many of the people who were diagnosed with PTSD were able to function
because they stuffed the PTSD down; however, the symptoms tended to rear their
heads at inopportune times (02:32:41:00)
o Anderson has been married for over thirty years, he and his wife have one child,
he never did drugs, drank, or any of the typical things associated with people who
had PTSD, although he did have the symptom of being a workaholic; as well, the
idea of telling his child what to do was imprinted on the child and that caused
some drama (02:33:14:00)
o A new concept that Anderson recently heard of in his therapy group is the concept
of Post-Traumatic Growth (02:34:27:00)
o Anderson thinks that all of the training and exposure made him a good supervisor,
although it did not make him a great employee (02:34:50:00)
Anderson was tough on his subordinates and he when has run into several
during his therapy, Anderson has apologized to them; however, almost
universally, they have said the Anderson was not as hard as Anderson
believed he was and once the soldiers figured out he had been in the
situation before, they tended to see that he was right (02:35:13:00)
Ultimately, Anderson would not trade the experience (02:36:31:00)
Anderson has been able to go to the Walter Reed Medical Center on several occasions to
see veterans of the current wars and although on some levels it makes Anderson angry
that they are putting the kids through that but it makes him sometimes feel that he is
unworthy of the benefits he is receiving from the government because not only are those
veterans going to have PTSD but they are also going to have to continue their life with a
disability (02:36:36:00)
Anderson avoided the idea of therapy for a long time because he knew there were people
who went to therapy who faked the experiences that they had; however, one day, it
dawned on him that he not only had to do the therapy for himself but he could not help
anyone else if he was only sitting on the sidelines (02:37:42:00)
o Anderson jokingly says he decided to do therapy because he wanted to stop being
a jackass and over the six years, he has seen some changes from therapy
(02:38:29:00)
Anderson is involved in a chapter for the 1st Air Cav. Association; the members meet
every month, do work out of the Grand Rapids Home for Veterans, including running
bingo on every fifth Sunday in a month (02:39:12:00)
o If the members see a veteran on the street, they stop and thank them because in a
lot of ways, the current group of veterans has it much harder because they
continue having to go back to fight (02:40:03:00)
Because Anderson has been through the benefit system and he is able to help other
veterans with the system, including men from his old company (02:40:33:00)
Anderson would not change anything from the military experience and the only thing he
would change if he could would be to understand what PTSD was thirty-five years before
(02:41:24:00)
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
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1914-
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
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RHC-27
Language
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eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Anderson, Bob (Interview transcript and video), 2011
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Anderson, Robert
Description
An account of the resource
Bob Anderson was born in August 1948 in Kalamazoo, Michigan. While growing up, his father re-enlisted in the military, meaning Anderson and his family moved constantly, although Anderson's father stayed at Andrews Air Force Base in Maryland long enough for Anderson to attend school and graduate. After graduating, Anderson attended a junior college in Mississippi and went to Michigan State University for a year before the university kicked him out for low grades. Once he left Michigan State, Anderson received his draft notice and following completion of basic training at Fort Benning, Georgia and AIT at Fort Dix, New Jersey, Anderson went back to Fort Benning to attend OCS. After completing OCS, Anderson deployed to Vietnam and joined the 1st Air Cavalry Division as a platoon leader. During his tour, Anderson served as a platoon leader, worked as part of base defense for a position and as a company executive officer. Once his tour in Vietnam ended, Anderson returned to the United States and went back to Michigan State.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Kentwood Historic Preservation Commission (Kentwood, Mich.)
WKTV
WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
United States. Army
Language
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eng
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
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2011-02-17
Identifier
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AndersonB
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Format
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application/pdf
video/mp4
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/37254cc6e71c9a963307820b23adcc0d.jpg
80fd6b55895290d26db377a8085b8162
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Faces of Grand Valley
Creator
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Grand Valley State University
Contributor
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University Communications
Description
An account of the resource
A non-comprehensive collection of photographs of Grand Valley faculty, staff, administrators, board members, friends, and alumni. Photos collected by University Communications for use in promotion and information sharing about Grand Valley with the wider community.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1960s - 1990s
Source
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GV012-03. University Communications. Vita Files
Rights
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In Copryight
Subject
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Grand Valley State University
College administrators
College teachers
Colleges and universities -- Faculty
Michigan
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives
Identifier
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GV012-03
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image/jpeg
Type
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Image
Language
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eng
Still Image
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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AndersonDoris
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. University Communications
Title
A name given to the resource
Anderson, Doris
Description
An account of the resource
Doris Andersen, Spanish
Subject
The topic of the resource
Grand Valley State University – History
College teachers
Universities and colleges – Faculty
Michigan
Source
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University Communications. Vita Files, 1968-2016 (GV012-03)
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives
Rights
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In Copyright
Type
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Image
Format
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image/jpeg
Language
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eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/cd711cb60f7e8157cd7b380938aa9a34.mp4
0bbd396564ad211c58d437df9308775c
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3d175a673b21fdfe5c871f5b7613ff19.pdf
4e585cc78507f74a13ae3c29edd41f95
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
Doug Anderson
Length: 26:55
(00:25) Naval Training
•
Doug was in high school when WWII started and the Navy had been offering a special
officer training program
•
He enlisted in the Navy and began training one month after graduating from high school
in July of 1943
•
Doug was sent to Oakland College in Ohio for an accelerated college program
•
He was then sent to midshipman school at Long Island Sound in New York
•
Doug was later transferred to a supply corps school in Boston
•
The war ended while he was still in school
•
He went through further training in salvage and preservation; there had been a lot of
equipment left over in the Pacific after the war and it needed to go into storage
(4:30) Salvage and Preservation
•
Doug was sent to Guam in the Pacific where he worked at the spare parts distribution
center
•
They set up a sort of assembly line where they would dip parts in a conservative
compound and then pack them away for storage
•
He stayed there working in Guam for the extent of his service
•
The crew he worked with continued to shrink every month or so while he was there and
he was discharged in August of 1946
(6:20) Navy
•
Doug had chosen the Navy because he said he had always been intrigued with the ocean
and wanted to serve his time on a ship
•
He grew up in Grand Rapids, Michigan and went to Union High School
�•
During his time in the service Doug traveled to Ohio, New York, Massachusetts, New
Jersey, and Guam
•
While training he did a lot of marching and drilling while also working on signaling,
gunnery, and seamanship
•
Midshipman school was the hardest because they had a lot of classes and went on cruises
in small naval craft
(10:20) Guam
•
On the island they lived in Quonset huts and had decent food; Doug did not have any
“horror stories”
•
He got along well with everyone and had an enjoyable experience
•
There had still been a few Japanese soldiers hiding out in the jungle and mountains that
did not know the war was over
•
They would sometimes come out at night and raid the garbage dumps
•
Doug also helped with orders from ships that were in need of new equipment
•
He served under a regular Navy Commander in charge of the base and Doug was the
Executive Officer
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Anderson, Doug (Interview outline and video), 2004
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Anderson, Doug
Description
An account of the resource
Doug Anderson was born and raised in Grand Rapids, Michigan and graduated from Union High School in 1943. He enlisted in the Navy and began training one month after graduation. Doug went through accelerated college courses at Oakland College in Ohio and was then sent to mid-shipman school in New York. After going through training, the war was already over and Doug was sent to work in salvage and preservation in Guam. Doug spent the extent of his service in Guam and eventually became an Executive Officer when he was only 19 years old.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Mangione, Nathaniel (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
United States. Navy
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2004-05-03
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AndersonD
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b24cf9936319b54edaab6f1a108ce48c.mp4
eb4f271493fa0c374a3715f2729bd38a
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/abae5647a61b7899dfde087dd6a49fc4.pdf
6c8312bf28a791ab08916bf6413b7389
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project
George Anderson
(00:25:37)
Background
• George Anderson
• Born February 5, 1931
• Coopersville, Michigan (00:09)
• He enlisted into the navy (00:29)
• Grew up on Garfield Street not to far from where he lives now (00:44)
• Wanted to do something for his country to help out in the Korean War (01:00)
Enlistment/Training
• Signed up in Muskegon
• Sent to Chicago for training
o Great Lakes training camp
� Spent three months learning to be a sailor (01:16)
• Sent to Newport, Rhode Island, for four months
o For torpedo school (01:42)
• Went to San Francisco, California and set out on the USS Curtis in November
(01:56)
• First day of service he was 20 years old scared
o They cut all of his hair off, which he didn’t like at all (02:20)
• Enjoyed his time in the service (03:34)
• Officer in charge of boot camp was bitter about being called back to duty from
retirement
o Did a lot of marching, inspections, firefighting drills
• Took his training a day at a time to get by (03:29)
• Set sail from San Francisco
• Went up and down the coast
• Target drills, last from one hour to several days (04:50)
• Was a telephone operator for a gunnery officer (05:36)
• Shore patrol around Pearl Harbor
Acapulco, Mexico
• Acapulco Mexico, good will tour basically
• All along the west coast
o Training and having fun (06:24)
• Worked in the armory of the ship, because they didn’t use the torpedoes
• Kept things up
o Worked for a first class aviation ordinance man (07:03)
• Did not see any combat (07:56)
• Watched a Hydrogen bomb go off
�•
o Cant look directly at it for the first three seconds
Brighter then the sun when it explodes
o Very beautiful (08:08)
Reflections on Service
• Got a Korean war medal, because he served during that time period, and he
received a good conduct medal (09:25)
• Wrote letters home to family
o Wrote letters every week, as the months went on he started to write only
once a month
� His family wrote to him a lot (09:53)
• Lots of good food, good rations masters, and good cooks.
o Plenty of supplies (10:43)
• Got a package of cigarettes for eighteen cents (11:26)
• Never felt pressured or stress while in the army (11:43)
• Was a mail delivery person from ship to ship
o Motor whale boat
� Hard to get in and out of it
� Didn’t want to fall into the ocean (12:50)
� Had recreation: beers, swimming, nap for entertainment (13:58)
� In Pearl Harbor hula girls came onto the ships to entertain the men
� Had movies sometimes(14:38)
� On leave he would go home and see his family (15:33)
� Doesn’t recall taking part in any pranks (16:00)
� Shows a series of photos (16:24)
Post Service Life
� Discharged honorably April 4, 1955 (17:09)
� Still showing pictures, cant see them very well, explains some of them (18:34)
� Given papers of dis charge in San Diego (20:05)
� Mother and sister came to visit him when he was discharged, they drove home to
Michigan cross country (20:31)
� He got a job in construction that October did it the rest of his life (21:03)
� Never took advantage of the G.I. bill (21:17)
� Part of a convention with people from his ship (21:51)
� Forced to retire, he didn’t want to retire (22:36)
� Military experience shaped him and his thought process towards life
o He keeps up with world affairs (22:48)
� Part of a war organization, doesn’t participate in them very much now (23:20)
� You have to get along with people, associate with different things, lots of travel
(23:36)
� Wanted to see combat (24:40)
� Sad to leave the service, happy to see his family and be back home (24:48)
� Brothers were in various branches of the war in the military (25:16)
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Anderson, George (Interview outline and video), 2005
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Anderson, George
Description
An account of the resource
George Anderson was born on February 5, 1931 in Coopersville, Michigan. He enlisted in the Navy in 1951. He was sent to the Great Lakes training center in Chicago, and then transferred to Newport, Rhode Island, where he took torpedo training. He was sent to San Francisco and assigned to the USS Curtis. He did not see any combat, but he went through patrols that took him all across the country and to Pearl Harbor. He worked in the armory of the ship.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Collins Sr., Charles E. (Interviewer)
Collins, Carol (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
United States. Navy
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Video recordings
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2005-02-01
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AndersonG
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/cc1b476d77649611021af96b47ade957.jpg
7262514d46bee0944af43e9a2b455f2b
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Faces of Grand Valley
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
University Communications
Description
An account of the resource
A non-comprehensive collection of photographs of Grand Valley faculty, staff, administrators, board members, friends, and alumni. Photos collected by University Communications for use in promotion and information sharing about Grand Valley with the wider community.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1960s - 1990s
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
GV012-03. University Communications. Vita Files
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In Copryight
Subject
The topic of the resource
Grand Valley State University
College administrators
College teachers
Colleges and universities -- Faculty
Michigan
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
GV012-03
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
image/jpeg
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Image
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Still Image
A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AndersonJack
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. University Communications
Title
A name given to the resource
Anderson, Jack
Description
An account of the resource
Jack Anderson, Physical Education
Subject
The topic of the resource
Grand Valley State University – History
College teachers
Universities and colleges – Faculty
Michigan
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
University Communications. Vita Files, 1968-2016 (GV012-03)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. Special Collections and University Archives
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In Copyright
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Image
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
image/jpeg
Language
A language of the resource
eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/0a0bf0abf7bf128b8986c63856896b3a.mp4
7709e5cec0d9b3da8c0a486c812651a2
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a4eb2cafbe1f9e5d18c5e1acec928f02.pdf
56751491af6bc460ef0bddb84a5aca05
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
Afghanistan
Nick Anderson
Total Time – (01:16:38)
Background
He was born in Minnesota in 1989 (00:25)
o He lived there for a year until his family moved to Grand Haven,
Michigan (00:30)
His father is an automotive engineer and his mother stayed at home with the kids
o There are four kids in the family (00:43)
He went to Freedom Baptist High School in Hudsonville, Michigan
He remembers being in 8th grade band class when he heard about 9/11 (01:01)
The news came over the loudspeakers – everyone was shocked
o There was a TV in his science class and they all gathered around and
watched it there (01:25)
The event stayed with him and was part of the reason he joined the military
Before 9/11 he had given thought to the service (01:49)
Movies helped make him want to join the military
He graduated high school in 2007 (02:14)
Enlistment/Training – (02:18)
He had decided midway through his senior year of high school that he wanted to
be a Marine (02:24)
o He chose the Marine Corps because he believed that they were the best
He based that on word of mouth and old veterans (02:41)
After signing up there were optional work-outs and class sessions on Wednesdays
at the recruiting station (03:12)
o The military expected the soldiers to know a lot of different acronyms and
general orders
He did not have any sense of what he was getting into before he was sent to Boot
Camp (04:03)
He was sent to San Diego, California for Boot Camp (04:12)
Before getting to California, he was sent to Lansing, Michigan to swear in (04:26)
o He is then sent to the airport to fly out
o Before they get on the plane, the soldiers were greeted by an angry guy
(Drill Instructor)
o He landed late at night (04:56)
�
On the bus ride to the recruiting depot, the recruits had to look down the entire
time (05:14)
When he got off the bus he was made to stand on yellow footprints, they yell at
you, shave your head, make them put their possessions in a box, give them all the
same things (05:29)
It took roughly a day or two for them to get put into their Boot Camp platoons
(05:52)
The only aptitude test he had to take was the ASVAB (Army Services Vocational
Aptitude Battery) (06:16)
o He had done it in high school
He was offered a variety of jobs but he only wanted to be infantry
Boot Camp was meant to break the soldiers down to nothing and then build them
back up (07:23)
o After that, he had to go to the School of Infantry where he learned all of
the basic infantry skills
Patrolling, shooting, etc. (07:38)
He was then sent to the 3rd Battalion 5th Marines (07:45)
o He went through little mandatory classes such as suicide prevention
He was able to call himself a Marine as soon as he was done with Boot Camp
(08:02)
Boot Camp was thirteen weeks long (08:07)
When they break the soldiers down, there are three phases that the they do it by
o The first phase is when “everybody is just like garbage” (08:21)
They are just learning the basic things – they could not do basic
things that Marines could
They could not roll up their sleeves, blouse military boots,
etc. (08:28)
The soldiers learn how to march
o They start of simple and then get more difficult (08:52)
It was not that difficult to adjust to the military life – he was used to get yelled at
– “I got yelled at a lot because I was stupid in high school.” (09:14)
It was all mind games
There were “a lot of stupid people that wanted to be Marines. If they’re getting
yelled at and I’m not, it’s fine with me.” (09:37)
Boot Camp has all kinds of recruits in it
o Some are fat, skinny, goofy looking, some say stupid things and get yelled
at, etc. (09:55)
o For some people, the military was an easy job
Some did it for school as well (10:21)
o One of the major reasons that many of the men were in the military was to
serve the country (10:44)
There are other perks that are factors as well
o There were men from all over the country (10:59)
When people messed up in Boot Camp they get yelled at in front of everyone
They had pre-pressed camis and boots that do not need to be shined (11:48)
�
There were a lot of Irish pendants that needed to be clipped on
The Drill Instructors came from all over the place
o To be a Drill Instructor you have to be crazy (12:36)
He was normally associated with a platoon with three instructors associated to it
(12:50)
o There was a senior, one that was specialized in drills, and one specialized
in knowledge
o The Senior Drill Instructor was like a father figure (13:19)
If they had problems they could go to him and he would not
usually scream at them as much (13:23)
After Boot Camp he was sent to Camp Pendleton, California for Infantry Training
(13:32)
Camp Pendleton was basically an addition to Boot Camp
o They soldiers are still getting yelled at but technically they are all Marines
(13:47)
o They give you more responsibility
They trained on the M16, M249 SAW (Squad Automatic
Weapon), explosive rounds, etc.
o They did not train on many heavy weapons (14:40)
o He did a lot of patrolling training (14:54)
When he first arrived to the fleet, he was joining a battalion that had already been
in Iraq (15:17)
At Camp Pendleton, some of the soldiers had already been to Iraq – they picked
on the new guys
After Camp Pendleton, his job was to join the unit and join their training schedule
(16:00)
o He got to his unit in March of 2008 and they went on their first
deployment in January of 2009 (16:17)
The environment was a lot more relaxed
o He had some more time to himself (16:40)
o When they were in the rear or stateside, unless they are on duty or
training, they have normal working hours (16:45)
o He did not got off the base very much because he did not have a car and
the base is in the middle of nowhere
He had a cell phone while he was there that allowed him to stay in contact with
others back home (17:14)
o There was a building in each part of the base that had free internet
In Boot Camp they tried to disconnect the soldiers from the world (17:31)
o He received one phone call in Boot Camp
Active Duty – Part I - MEU/Pacific Cruise – (17:49)
His first deployment was on a MEU (Marine Expeditionary Unit) (17:54)
o It is virtually a show of strength to the world if something happens they
are right there to take care of it (17:58)
�
o He went to Japan, South Korea, Philippines, Thailand, and Australia
They took unit transports to the different locations
They flew on a 747 to Okinawa (18:29)
o The ship that he took was an LPD-9 (18:37)
The backs open up and they let the amphibious vehicles out
He started out of South Korea
In most of the countries that they went to they trained with the actual armies of
those countries (19:00)
o They did house room clearing
o He got he impression that the South Koreans had tight restrictions on what
they could and could not do (19:23)
They had nets on their guns that collected the brass after they shot
He heard that they had a high suicide rate (19:36)
The Marines are fed by eating MRE’s (Meals Ready to Eat) (20:01)
o They come in little brown bags
o Some of them are good but some of them are nasty (20:06)
o When they were on the ships they ate very well – they ate Navy food
After Korea, he went to the Philippines, Australia, and Thailand (20:24)
o They did not get a good reception when they went to Australia (20:33)
o There were girls there that were trying to make fun of the Americans
accents
It was funny to the soldiers even though the girls did not mean for
it to be funny (20:44)
o The Philippines was the most receptive of the countries they went to
When they go to shore they are given the normal rules – “if you’re gonna drink,
don’t get stupid.” (21:07)
o Incidents in other countries are difficult to deal with
o Alcohol was usually involved in the misbehaving of soldiers (21:23)
Usually the soldiers did alright
o He stayed away from the drinking for the most part (21:37)
Having gone to a Baptist school helped him in the military (21:42)
o It gave him a good foundation to stick to
o He met a couple of married men in the service that wanted to remain
faithful so he hung out with them (21:48)
They usually got a couple of days in each country to go and hang out (22:12)
o They had to stay in groups of no less than four in case they got in trouble
or got lost
The cruising lasts for about eight months (22:37)
Day to day life on ship did not have much for Marines to do
o The higher-ups would get made at them for being lazy and sleeping all day
(22:56)
They made it mandatory that they got out of bed
The Navy men had to work and the Marines were in there way
(23:10)
They then stayed in their beds all day to stay out of the
Navy’s way
�
The Senior Battalion Commander and Sergeant Major were probably in their 50’s
(23:38)
o The Company Commander was probably 30 years old and the Platoon
Commander was probably 24 or 25 years old (23:52)
o All of the Officers had college degrees (24:04)
He had a sense that promotion was fairly slow
o It was dependent on what job the soldier has
o The military did not need a lot of promotions for infantry soldiers (24:33)
The soldiers that had been in Iraq did not talk about it very much (24:47)
o By that time Iraq had slowed down quite a bit
There were some of his seniors that had been in Fallujah, Iraq in the deployment
before the major deployments (25:12)
At this point he never expected his military experience to get bad
o He figured that he may have to go to Afghanistan but never thought it
would get too bad (25:43)
He then returned to the United States from his cruise in August of 2009
At this stage he was figuring that a four year stint would probably make him go
on two different deployments (26:43)
o He was thinking that he would not reenlist
o He had been open to the idea of staying in for longer (27:01)
When he was in his return, he was in the middle of seniority – he was more senior
than the new guys but less senior than the higher ups
Active Duty – Part II – Camp Leatherneck/Sangin/IED – (28:00)
He stayed at Camp Pendleton for roughly one year (28:03)
In January of 2010, they went to Bridgeport, California for mountain warfare
training (28:10)
o The first week they were there it snowed 6-10 feet
They would train in different extremes – they would go to the dessert in the
summer for training (28:20)
In the process of all of his training he received amphibious landing training
(28:37)
o They would get on an amphibious assault vehicle and would shoot off of
the back of a ship
He learned that he was going to go to Afghanistan three months before they were
going to leave (29:17)
o They were all thinking that it was not going to be fun but more exciting
than what they had been doing (29:30)
o Once it gets closer to it they hear about what is going on where they are
going
They did not receive much specialized training for Afghanistan before they left
(29:51)
Most of the training they did before they went they did not use because they did
not know what to expect in Afghanistan
o The training they had was based more on Iraq than Afghanistan (30:12)
�
o Where they were in Afghanistan they had to walk in single file lines
because of IED’s (Improvised Explosive Device) (30:25)
Typically soldiers will not walk in single file line in case the
enemy has a machine gun – they could mow down all of the
soldiers
When the time comes to leave, they flew on a plane to Maine and then to
Kurdistan (30:51)
o They stayed at an Air Force Base in Kurdistan for a couple of nights
before flying in to Camp Leatherneck, Afghanistan
They stayed in Camp Leatherneck for a week while they were briefed (31:13)
o They then flew in to Sangin, Afghanistan where they took over (31:19)
They were in the Helmand Province (31:32)
His first impression is that everything is made of dirt and the people are dirty
There was a river that ran right next to the town that was green on both sides –
there were pomegranate trees and other vegetation (32:01)
Across from the main road there was just a desert where nothing grew
o They were in the desert part for the majority of the time (32:25)
The guys that they were taking over for told them that they should not go for the
Taliban flags, do not go in to abandoned compounds, and follow in the footsteps
of the soldier in front of you (32:40)
The properties in Sangin had twelve foot high mud walls surrounding their land
with a compound on the inside (33:17)
o They had outhouses
o Their own property was enclosed in the walls (33:36)
o The compounds often shared the same walls
There were narrow streets and allies (33:58)
He was a part of Lima Company (34:16)
o Their area of operations was to the south of the city
o The different companies split up to the different parts of the town (34:26)
It was a big town
Their basic mission was to cut off supply routes and kill the Taliban (34:39)
He was not sure how the Taliban moved supplies around
o They would do vehicle and personnel checks
o They had rules of engagement that were pretty relaxed at the beginning
(35:03)
Anyone that had a walkie talkie or a cell phone could be shot
(35:09)
The local population was scared of the American soldiers (35:15)
o They were once told that they believed they were going to kidnap the
women and children and cut their heads off
o One lady told them that the Taliban was only in her town because the
Americans were. If the Americans would leave, the Taliban would leave
as well (35:31)
o Little kids would throw rocks at them when they would drive by
Each company was broken down into four platoons (35:59)
o There were three patrol bases where the platoons would split up
�
o From each patrol base, one squad would be sent out each day (36:13)
o There were typically 12-15 men in each squad
They would typically go out and patrol – they found a lot of IED’s
(36:31)
They found a lot of weapons caches (36:37)
The IED’s were found by either seeing them with their eyes or by metal detectors
(36:50)
o IED’s are made of plastic jugs with chemicals, a lamp cord, 3 9 volt
batteries to complete the circuit, and a pressure plate made of wood
o The metal detectors could only pick up on the batteries (37:18)
They were very careful with any unsettled dirt
Each patrol was led by an engineer with a valence (metal detector) (37:53)
There was one day when they only moved 50 feet and it took them two hours to
clear the area (37:58)
Clearing out IED’s was very slow
When they find the IED they call up the EOD (Explosive Ordnance Disposal)
(38:10)
o They drive up in their truck and dig at the IED to see if it is – if it is they
blow it up (38:20)
o The EOD were awesome at their job
o There was one patrol where the EOD helped them with sixteen IED’s
(38:52)
The patrol bases were typically abandoned buildings
o Their patrol base was a cement building – they would joke that a drug lord
had owned it (39:14)
o They would put sandbags all around the top of the building
He started to run into trouble about a week after he was there (39:56)
o The first day there was a three hour long gun fight
It was kind of fun because no one got hit (40:06)
It was like “all guns blazin”
o They were up on a hill being shot at (40:32)
o They were only 200 feet away from their patrol base
o They called in an A10 Warthog to go in and unload their main firepower
(40:50)
The A10 Warthog worked
They wanted to hide after that (41:11)
After the first firefight, the enemy got the idea that it was not a good idea to fight
them (41:19)
o The Americans had way more firepower than the enemy could imagine
o The enemy would sometimes take a couple of pot shots but that was about
all (41:31)
The biggest threat was the IED’s (41:39)
The IED’s were typically just the pressure plates
o There were sometimes some manually triggered IED’s (41:59)
They came across a lot of the abandoned manual IED’s
�
The next day after the first firefight was when they discovered an IED that was
very close to them
o An Afghani soldier stepped on an IED and blew it up (43:07)
o The dust from the IED takes roughly 2-3 minutes before it clears
o They could hear screaming in English (43:27)
Their lieutenant had been hit as well
o They saw the Afghani soldier rolling around and yelling (43:37)
He bled out in front of them (43:44)
After the IED exploded, no one really wanted to walk around anymore
o They had to get to the body and take care of it
o It took a while because they were all trying to be very careful (44:03)
o A helicopter came and took the body and the American to a hospital
(44:17)
They were supposed to take the Afghans on every patrol so that they could train
and learn how to do everything on their own (44:30)
o He does not see that every happening
They would never lead the patrol and would wait for the
Americans to lead (44:36)
o The Afghans were not any better than the Americans at spotting IED’s
Typically, when an IED would be spotted, the Afghan soldiers
would sit on the ground with their gun over their laps (44:51)
Active Duty – Part III – Patrols/Taliban Flags/ Weapon Caches – (45:01)
There was at least one interpreter on every patrol (45:07)
o The interpreters were Afghans
o The Americans liked the interpreters because they spoke English and
would go out without guns (45:31)
Most of the interpreters wanted to eventually go to America (44:44)
They were primarily recruited by the government to work as
interpreters
It was very dangerous working with the Afghan soldiers (46:26)
o One of his best friends was blown up when they were going down an alley
way and one of the Afghani soldiers went off on his own and stepped on
an IED
o The enemy typically fires at the Americans when the bombs go off
because it is very hard to see anything (47:08)
He was deployed in Afghanistan for seven months
o In that time he carried an M249 saw when he was there (47:46)
He kept a diary for a large portion of the time that he was there (47:52)
Usually the rooftops of the compounds did not have walls – everyone was able to
see them but they could hardly see anything (48:18)
When they were on the ground they could only see 15-20 feet away because of
the walls
When they were patrolling and had to go into a compound they would typically
have the interpreter knock on the door and ask to let the Americans in (48:53)
�
o If the compound was not occupied, they would rarely go through the
doorway
One of his other best friends was blown up and killed because he
walked in an empty doorway that had an IED on the other side
(49:14)
o They would take ladders and go over the wall
o They eventually just started blowing holes in the sides of walls (49:29)
It made a lot of the Afghans upset
About three months in, his unit moved farther into the country so that they could
secure the whole area (50:04)
o They had to make their own new patrol base (50:16)
There were a lot of sandbags to be filled
The men in his squad were mostly kids (50:35)
He has one friend from Hawaii that he still talks to
One of his friends that stepped on an IED was from Minnesota (51:03)
He also maintains contact with many of the guys out in California (51:11)
They were not supposed to get “buddy buddy” with the sergeants because they
were higher ups (51:30)
o He liked most of them and did not agree with the decisions of some of
them
o One of the sergeants was a short guy and felt like he owed someone
something
His mindset was that since he had been in Iraq he wanted to do a
lot of the things that were not supposed to be done in Afghanistan
(52:12)
He wanted to get the Taliban flags, find IED’s, etc.
He was only put in charge of them because he was a higher rank
than them (52:27)
He was the squad leader
The Taliban flags were typically in abandoned compounds that have IED’s
planted inside (52:46)
o Their mindset is that the Americans will want to go get the flags. That is
why they booby trap the building that they are in (52:59)
o They eventually learned to not go and get the flags (53:08)
The weapons caches were also in abandoned compounds (53:27)
o They would sometimes get tipped off on where to look for them
o There was a big tower with a camera on top where they could look for
hostile movement
o One time they saw a man with a long barreled weapon that he should not
have
They called it in and had him “blown to pieces” (53:59)
o Sometimes they would see people moving in and out of abandoned
compounds – they would then have to go and check it out (54:08)
The rules of engagement changed over time
o When they arrived there was hardly anyone traveling the streets (54:27)
Near the end there were families going down the streets
�
o On some level, the American presence was working (54:45)
The Afghani’s probably felt safe because there were Americans
everywhere with guns
o Toward the end there was a lot less gunfights (55:03)
The trucks and mine rollers that they would use were essentially big trucks
(55:30)
o Most of them have a v-shaped hole
o The humvees are being used less because of their flat bottoms (55:44)
o They would sometimes use an MRAP (Mine-Resistant Ambush Protected)
truck (55:55)
o The mine plows were extensions of the truck that had solid rubber tires
with weights on top that will set off the IED before it gets under the truck
(56:28)
When driving around on the mine plow he had a lot of problems with the tires
A typical day when not on patrol was being put on post (57:45)
o If he was not on post he would be on an unloading party – they would
unload water bottles, food, or filling sandbags
Active Duty – Part IV – Miscellaneous Info./Last Experiences in Afghanistan –
(58:13)
He had more down time at the beginning than at the end (58:19)
When someone in the unit would get hit and taken out, the rest of the men stayed
back and continued fighting (58:36)
o They would always have to push through it
In the beginning they did not patrol as much because of the IED threat (58:55)
o The would have spades tournaments
It was typically too cold to take showers – they would sometimes take solar
showers but it was still often too cold (59:32)
o It was three months before he got his first running water shower
o The soldiers would have to put the same dirty clothes back on (59:51)
They were expected to shave and keep their hair short (01:00:00)
o They had generators that were brought in
At first they could only shave
o The generators had outlets where they could plug in and shave their hair
(01:00:22)
The seven months that he was in Afghanistan was spent with the same group
o After guys were killed or hurt they would receive combat replacements
(01:00:45)
For a while they liked to believe that they were the best squad
o There was not much of a difference between the units (01:01:44)
The night vision goggles were sometimes beneficial
o He had a pair that was blurry and he could not fix it (01:02:06)
o He had another pair that would randomly shut off
If a soldier received a good pair, he could see fine (01:02:17)
o There has to be a little bit of light for them to work well
�
The larger strategy against the Taliban was working to some degree (01:03:01)
Once the Americans got into the trucks, they would sometimes still have the
Afghans alongside them
o When they were on the patrols, the Afghani soldiers would remain with
them (01:03:22)
They were not really able to see improvement with the Afghani
soldiers when they were on patrols
He rarely had to deal with the Afghani soldiers
o One of his friends had a Star of David tattoo – when he took his shirt off
an Afghani soldier pointed his rifle at him (01:03:55)
There were only eight Americans and twenty Afghani soldiers
o Two of his friends were murdered by Afghanis (01:04:17)
He never saw any suicide bombers
o He would see them set off bombs and then run away (01:04:36)
o They never wanted to become complacent and believe that there were not
suicide bombers so they still checked everyone (01:04:52)
When they had the generator with electrical outlets they would charge their iPods
or other devices
o One time they all gathered around an iPod and watched Aladdin
(01:05:32)
o There was one guy that had a laptop and care packages would sometimes
have DVDs in them (01:05:44)
He was able to stay in communication with his family roughly once every month
o The married men usually had first dibs
o There was a seventeen hour time difference between Afghanistan and
Michigan (01:06:13)
The best time to call was in the middle of the night in Afghanistan
because it was the middle of the day in Michigan (01:06:23)
o He got care packages – he had requested Monster drinks and Swedish Fish
(01:07:02)
o They would get so much candy that they did not know what to do with it
They would give some out to the kids when they would go out on
patrol (01:07:25)
The kids would like the soldiers when they were giving them
things
When he went into Afghanistan he did not think about how long his deployment
was going to last (01:08:03)
o He was more worried about knowing if he was going to die, etc.
When he was in Afghanistan he knew a month or two ahead of time that he was
going to be leaving
o They would do something called Ripping (Relieving In Place) (01:08:43)
o They would train the replacements by going on patrols with them
o The Afghanis knew that they were sending replacements and that “new
blood was coming in” (01:08:53)
The second patrol that they were on with the new guys an engineer stepped on a
bomb and lost both of his legs
�
o He later found out later that one of the other engineers in the unit was
killed and the other had his leg blown off (01:09:19)
Over the course of his time there, there were twenty-five that were killed and
almost two hundred wounded – there were only eight hundred soldiers there on
patrols
The most that any soldier ever had to use was a tourniquet (01:10:16)
o The doctors would use IVs to keep the soldiers out of shock
There were times when soldiers would step on bombs that were only a couple feet
away from him (01:10:37)
o There were a couple of times where he was almost shot
o After one explosion his nose started bleeding (01:11:06)
o He was never hit by shrapnel
o One time he had to pick flesh of other soldiers off of his neck (01:11:20)
He had, by that time, decided that four years in the military was enough
He returned to America in April or May and was discharged in August (01:11:47)
Once he was back from Afghanistan he had to turn in his gear, make sure his
medical information is up to date, took classes, etc.
The military gave TAP (Transition Assistance Program) classes to soldiers that
were about to head home (01:12:39)
o He cannot remember if anything that they taught him was useful
o The courses were extremely boring
He believes that if he would have gone straight to college he would not have done
nearly as well as he is (01:13:27)
o He probably would not have gone very far because he was a horrible
student
o Problems in America are not as big as they seemed before his military
experience
His first class was three days after returning from the Marine Corps. (01:14:19)
o It was nice because no one was yelling at him and no one was in his face
about anything
o Whenever he walks across the GVSU bridge he imagines someone
grabbing a kid and throwing them off (01:15:02)
He studies Criminal Justice at Grand Valley State University
All of his checkups at the VA (Veteran’s Association) are free
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
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1914-
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
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RHC-27
Language
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eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Anderson, Nicholas "Nick" (Interview outline and video), 2013
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Anderson, Nicholas
Description
An account of the resource
Nick Anderson was born in Minnesota in 1989 and moved to Grand Haven, Michigan three years later. He had given thought to joining the military before 9/11 and, during his senior year of high school, decided that he wanted to be a Marine. Nick swore into the military in Lansing, Michigan and then went to San Diego, California for Basic Training. He was then sent to Camp Pendleton, California for Infantry Training. His first deployment was on an MEU (Marine Expeditionary Unit) until he returned to America for Mountain Warfare Training. Nick was then deployed to Afghanistan and landed at Camp Leatherneck. His unit served in Sangin where there was a constant threat of IED's. He remembers his experiences on patrols and the routines of finding abandoned compounds.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
United States. Marine Corps
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
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2013-01-18
Identifier
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AndersonN1473V
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a>
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application/pdf
video/mp4
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d26c7988d1d574dc0f9cfda7794ccac7.mp4
4ab41cc1e8d4dd8139a730c648e8ea7d
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/266fbcd8d0b1a3746e8efe92614dba79.pdf
6f77bc3a976428e7d6d9bf3cdc4668d2
PDF Text
Text
ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW
BOB ANDERSON
Born: August 1948, Kalamazoo, Michigan
Resides: Ada, Michigan
Interviewed by: James Smither PhD, GVSU Veterans History Project,
Transcribed by: Joan Raymer, August 24, 2012
Interviewer: Bob, can you start us off with some background on yourself? To begin
with, where and when were you born?
I was born in August of 1948, in Kalamazoo, Michigan.
Interviewer: Did you grow up in Kalamazoo?
Probably for three or four years, and then my father went back into the Air Force, he was
a veteran of WWII, and he was tired of the rigmarole of civilian life. He was a pilot so he
applied for and the air force granted him a return to duty, so he went back in the service
and ended up retiring from the Air Force.
Interviewer: Did he rejoin while the Korean War was going on?
I think it was—of course I was little, so I didn‟t—I think towards the tail end maybe of
Korea. Although he was a pilot, he was not a combat pilot. He was a personnel and
transport pilot. 1:13
Interviewer: They needed a fair number of those while the Korean War was going
on probably.
Yeah, and we lived in a lot of different places, you know, we were in Charleston, South
Carolina, we were in Florida for a few months while he was transitioning into other types
of aircraft. The majority of the time, before I went in the service, he was stationed at
1
�Andrews Air Force Base in Maryland. That‟s where I went to high school and graduated,
in Maryland.
Interviewer: What year did you graduate from high school?
I graduated in 1966 and proceeded to go to junior college for a year, and I lived with my
uncle, believe it or not, down on the gulf coast in Mississippi. He was a professor at one
of the colleges in the gulf coast junior college district and I loved living with him and that
was quite an experience. 2:11
Interviewer: Where did you go from there?
Then I transferred and I went to Michigan State and started there in the fall of 1967. I
really didn‟t know how to study, so I spent a lot of time doing book work, actually
counting the hours and things like that, but I didn‟t know how to translate the studying
into regurgitation on the tests, so as a result I ended up getting academically dismissed
from Michigan State in the spring of 1968.
Interviewer: While you were on the Michigan State campus, was there much going
on by way of peace movement stuff or protest activities or things like that that you
were aware of? 3:08
If there was I was really unaware of it. I was pretty insulated as a kid growing up. I
mean, my parents didn‟t keep me from anything and I was free to do what I wanted to do,
but I just was kind of oblivious to world events, I guess if you will.
Interviewer: Did you think of the possibility that somebody might draft you or
anything like that?
Well, when I came—my parents, again, were living in Maryland, so after I got dismissed
I packed my stuff up and came back to Maryland feeling kind of like a failed something
2
�because I had done so well in the junior college. I could have gone to junior college
again in Maryland, but there was something in the back of my mind that said, “No,
you‟re really not ready for this yet”. 4:07 So, I talked to my dad quite a bit and he
thought it may be good if I went in the service to get some free training, and when I got
out of the service and was no longer interested in going to college, I would at least have a
trade to go to. So, we kind of talked it over and my father‟s very handy, so he suggested
that maybe refrigeration equipment repair, you know. People always need—air
conditioners were kind of just coming into vogue in 1968 I guess, and, of course,
everybody has a refrigerator and so maybe that might be something good. I didn‟t know
anything about any of that, but it sounded good. So I enlisted in the
Army to be a refrigeration equipment repairman. 5:08
Interviewer: When did you enlist?
I enlisted on my brother‟s birthday, May 6th 1968.
Interviewer: Now this is a point when the army needed people pretty badly, the Tet
Offensive had just gone on and all that kind of stuff. Were you able to actually
dictate the specific type of training you received?
I was, I actually had a guaranteed, I have that at home in my paperwork, still, it was a
guaranteed enlistment for that particular school, which was to be held at Fort Belvoir,
which was just across the Potomac River about ten miles from my home, so I thought that
would be kind of interesting too, so yeah, the army guaranteed me that I would go to
refrigeration equipment repair school. 6:01
Interviewer: All right now, where in fact did they—what did you do for basic
training?
3
�I took basic training at Fort Benning, Georgia, home of the infantry. Then I took—had I
gone to the refrigeration equipment repair program, I would have then gone to Fort
Belvoir, but during the reception, reception station period, many of us take tests and I had
scored high enough on the testing to be considered for Officer Candidate School, so I
thought, “Well, if I‟ve got to “—by then Vietnam was, you know, two years ago Vietnam
was a nonevent for me, even though my division, the 1st Cav, had fought bravely and
honorably in the Ia Drang Valley, but that was my senior year in high school and that was
still oblivious to me. 7:06 But, I had my choice to go to OCS, because I qualified, and
once I said, “Yes, I‟ll do that”, then I gave up my right to go to refrigeration equipment
repair school, so after basic training I went to Fort Dix, New Jersey.
Interviewer: Now, back up a little bit and describe what your version of basic
training was like.
Well, the basic premise behind basic training, I think, is they want to tear you down and
expunge all your thoughts of the civilian world and turn you into a soldier, so there‟s a lot
of physical—back in those days they could really yell at you and everything. Now, I
guess they do, but it‟s more on the QT. 8:01 They could call you whatever they wanted
to call you and you really had no recourse to it other than say, “Yes drill sergeant”, and
then do whatever pushups they wanted you to do or what have you. It was first aid
training and drill and ceremonies, how to march, teach you how to do the manual of arms
with your M14, and rifle marksmanship, of course, was a big thing. But, not everyone
that goes through basic training ends up in a combat arm, or infantry or what have you,
you know. Many of them did not sign off and some went to refrigeration equipment
repair school, some of them went to welding, wherever the regular army folks, whatever
4
�they had signed up to do they went to those various posts and did there thing. How to
find mines in the ground, we shot 3.5 rocket launchers and M72 LAWs, and pistol
familiarization. 9:13 It was orientated toward infantry tactics, target detection, night
evasion, escape evasion and things like that.
Interviewer: How easy, or hard, was it for you to adjust to military life?
I think for the most part my adjustment was fairly easy, primarily because my father was
career Air Force and I had, even though from afar, I had some knowledge of what you‟re
supposed to do, you know, you don‟t argue with everybody if somebody tells you to do
something. Of course in basic training they‟re not going to give you anything illegal.
10:02 That may or may not have come later, but basic training, if they told you to get
down and do a bunch of pushups, you got down and did as many as you could, you know.
If they told you to run around the building five times, you ran around the building, there
were no debates with the drill sergeants, you know. If the drill sergeant said, “Stand over
in the corner on one foot”, and went away, that‟s what you did. If you were smart you
did what they told you to do.
Interviewer: Did they have people who kind of just did get it, or put up a fight?
There were a few that I guess couldn‟t be broken, or didn‟t want to be broken, and I
would suspect that probably most of those were draftees. They were doing whatever they
were doing and then Uncle Sam knocked on their door and said, you know, "You will
report to wherever”, and they did. 11:05 They were rebellious, I suspect, because they
didn‟t want to be there in the first place. I—my situation was a little bit different in that I
enlisted, so even though my basic feeling might have been similar to theirs, I basically
just kept my mouth shut because I signed up.
5
�Interviewer: Were you in pretty good physical shape at that point? Could you do
all the PT stuff?
I would say yes, I was much different than I am now days, but running was kind of a
nonevent thing, and the pushups, you know, eventually I got pretty good with that. The
only thing I really had trouble with is the overhead, we called them monkey bars, you had
to do that every day before you went to chow and I wasn‟t very good at that at first
because I didn‟t have good upper body strength, but eventually you learn how to do it.
12:09
Interviewer: How long was the basic training?
It was about nine weeks, I think, eight or nine.
Interviewer: Did you go straight from there into OCS?
No, I went straight from there to Fort Dix for advanced training and in a lot of ways it
was similar to basic. Of course, this is geared toward infantry now because I backed out
of the other. It‟s more weapons, it‟s more radio procedure, it‟s not as much drill and
ceremony, but, you know, more field exercises and more kind of tactical types of things
and kind of gearing you up to—pretty much most of the people knew where they were
going, if they were in that infantry AIT company they were going to Vietnam. 13:03
Interviewer: Now were you trained by people who had already served there?
In basic training yes, and in a little lesser degree in AIT, and the company commander
had not been there, either of my company commanders, basic or AIT had not been there,
but all of the drill sergeants in basic training had been to Vietnam, and I‟ve got a pretty
good memory of all of the names except for AIT and I don‟t remember many of their
6
�names. I think our platoon sergeant had been to Vietnam, but I can‟t be a hundred
percent sure of that because it‟s just kind of a vague memory.
Interviewer: Did they make much of an effort to simulate the physical conditions in
situations you may encounter in Vietnam?
Probably as much as they could, I mean the physical situation, you know, the terrain or
the humidity, or the monsoons, or those types of things, they couldn‟t replicate. 14:09
Of course the jungle, they could replicate, but barring all of that I think they did a pretty
good job.
Interviewer: Did they prepare you to function in civilian areas and thing like that?
We actually did two or three days of training on crowd control, or something, I forget
what they called them, but yes, there was a class on dealing with civilians.
Interviewer: Did they have like a simulated Vietnamese village set up, because some
of the training places did?
Not that I remember, I don‟t think so, but I know some of the other posts, like Fort Polk, I
think they did.
Interviewer: That would be harder to do in New Jersey for some reason.
Well yeah 15:07
Interviewer: Once you complete AIT then, what’s the next stage?
Then it seemed like I had a couple three days before I had to report to Fort Benning, and I
reported there in middle of September, I think it was, or the first week of September,
something like that, for infantry officer candidate school. There were about a hundred
and twenty of us that started, and of course their focus was to turn all of you into
lieutenants of infantry. The class day was long; the academics were hard for some.
7
�Really, I didn‟t have any trouble with the academics. 16:02 I didn‟t have any trouble,
really, with the physicality of it, and some folks did, but it was geared strictly to take,
probably by now, take a sixteen, seventeen week Army kid and make him a rifle platoon
leader.
Interviewer: Were most of the people you were with college graduates, or were they
like you and maybe had some college or a little bit of that?
I would say that in my platoon, and I would guess there were maybe twenty of us,
probably half were college graduates and then the other half were probably like me with
one to two years of schooling.
Interviewer: Traditionally OCS has been, in a lot of situations, primarily college
graduates, but they adjust the standards depending on how many people they need
in part. 17:09
Well, I suspect that‟s true, you know OCS, military academies, and ROTC were
primarily very, and still are, primarily commissioning sources for all branches of the
service, but a lot of the guys were married, too. In my platoon probably thirty percent of
the guys were married and then again if they were college graduates and they were
married, they were in there because they got drafted. They didn‟t raise their hand with a
four year degree and working in a good job, and say, “Well, I think I‟ll go in the Army
that sounds good”, so Uncle Sam came and knocked on their door too. Many of them
brought their wives down and I‟m sure it was quite difficult to have your wife, you know,
five miles away, just off post, and here you are stuck with a hundred other guys, you
know. 18:13
8
�Interviewer: In what ways were they giving you specific training, towards
Vietnam? What kinds of things were they trying to prepare you for?
Well, it was kind of more of the same, but it was more intense. Being more of the same
infantry oriented, and there was a lot of map reading, there was artillery firing, and we
had to learn how to adjust fire with an 81mm mortar, and tactical situations. You know a
lot of it was classroom too, you know. They‟re showing a film on TV or something and
all of a sudden it would stop and they would call out, “Company commander Anderson
has now been killed, what do you do next?” 19:05 Hopefully I was awake when they
called my name and I was able to give them something and then they would dissect what
I had given them and then roll the film to see if what I had given them was what was
supposed to have been done. The few times he called on me I was A, awake, and able to
give him the proper result, but when you‟re, you being a professor know this too, I‟m
sure you can look up from the lectern and see some students dozing off. And it was go,
go, go, from the time that reveille started at 0500, or what have you, until lights out at
2100 or 2200, whatever it was. You run to wherever you‟re going, and it‟s hot in the fall
in Georgia. 20:06 Then you get in an air conditioned building and it seemed like
sometimes your fanny hit the seat and you were conked out, and they had ways to deal
with that too, it was humorous in some regards sometimes. He would just speak out,
“Ok, for all of you who are awake ignore my next command”, and then he would yell out,
“On your feet”, you know and of course only the ones—you were conditioned to that, but
if you were half asleep you didn‟t hear the previous command, so half of the class stood
up, and then they got chastised a little bit, but it was humorous in some instances.
Interviewer: How long did OCS last?
9
�OCS was twenty three weeks, I believe it was.
Interviewer: So, it was not quite like the WWII model of the ninety day wonder.
No, we still receive that moniker, so I guess we were twice as good. 21:07
Interviewer: There you go. All right, now once you get to the end of that do they
give you a furlough or anything before they assign you? What happens?
They did, order came down and some guys stayed right at Fort Benning to go to the
tactical department or something. I stayed right at Fort Benning to go to a basic training
unit to be a training officer, but there was a week or two in between.
Interviewer: How long did you stay on as a training officer?
I graduated on the 29th of March and I probably reported there in mid-April, so I was
probably there about four months when I came down on orders for Vietnam.
Interviewer: Now, what was life like on the other side of it? Now you’re training
other people. 22:01
Well, the role of a 2nd Lieutenant in a basic training company is kind of like what you use
to say about children you know, be seen and not heard, because we were gentlemen by an
act of congress, but many of us were unsure of ourselves and, of course, you had the drill
sergeant cadre there that really knew what they were doing, so if you were smart you
kind of got out of their way and let them do what they were supposed to do, and you just
watched and learned from that, and that‟s really what I tried to do. There was—we had a
good company commander, he was—he had served with the 101st Airborne and our first
sergeant was a two tour Vietnam guy and had been in Korea as well. 23:04 All of the
other drill sergeants had been to Vietnam, so they knew what they were doing and they
didn‟t need me to tell them what to do, so I tried to stay out of their way.
10
�Interviewer: Did you actually have any responsibilities then?
You got a ton of responsibilities, you know, you‟re the mess officer, and you‟re the army
emergency relief officer, and you‟re the, I can‟t even remember, the blood drive officer,
and I mean there‟s a whole host of things that you have to do and those are just three. I
can‟t even begin to list all of the extra duties that you have to do.
Interviewer: There’s a lot of administrative and bureaucratic work, and that kind
of thing, and in a way, that may be you’re best suited to do, at that point, because
you haven’t been anywhere yet. 24:01
Right, and they‟re trying to give you some responsibility just to—not necessarily to build
up your self-esteem or anything like that, but to make you feel comfortable with the fact,
“Ok Jim, I need you to go over here and take three guys and do this”, and unless you had
been in a working environment and had been a supervisor, most of us had never asked or
told, or cajoled, people to do things. They tried to kind of break you in easy and just
make you feel comfortable inside your uniform that says eighty percent of the people on
this base have to salute you now.
Interviewer: Now, you’re in sort of an odd situation in a way I would think, because
you’re aware that sooner or later you’re going to go to Vietnam, and instead of
being packed up right away you’re sort of cooling your heels at Fort Benning. Did
you think about that much, one way or another, or did you just take things as they
came? 25:10
You know, once you became an infantry—once I said I wasn‟t going to be a refrigeration
equipment repairman, then my path was chosen and there was no question in my mind
that I was ultimately going to end up in Vietnam. And again, I didn‟t dwell on that at all
11
�you know, it is what it is. I raised my hand and here I am, and if they keep me here for
two years then that„s what I would have done. In fact, the senior lieutenant in our
company had been there exactly that, when he graduated from Armor OCS, he stayed
right at Fort Benning. He was in that company the whole two years and never went
anywhere. 26:04 But, I didn‟t have any grand illusion that was going to happen to me.
I was doing the best I could as a 2nd lieutenant and if it came then I would go on to the
next step and do the best that I could there.
Interviewer: So, what was your reaction when the call actually did come?
I was apprehensive, of course, you know-- by then you‟re a whole lot different than you
were a civilian, you know. Now you‟re getting the Army Times every week and you
open up to the middle and “ninety killed” or whatever, and four of those were officers. I
guess I was—I don‟t know if I was glad, I guess I knew that I was going to have to go
there eventually, or pretty sure I was going to go there. 27:04 “I‟ve been here long
enough, I‟ve got this duty assignment down pat, so let‟s go do what I was really trained
to do and see what happens”.
Interviewer: How do they physically get you out to Vietnam?
Well, you came down on orders and you had to report to, or I had to report to, Travis Air
Force Base in California and I guess I flew out there, I don‟t even remember how I got
out there to be honest, I didn‟t drive, of course, I had a car, but I didn‟t drive out there,
and I didn‟t take the train, so I must have flown.
Interviewer: But you don’t have any particular recollection of flying?
I don‟t have any particular recollection.
Interviewer: Do you remember actually arriving in Vietnam?
12
�I do remember that. 28:03 A lot of folks remember that it was smelly and that it was
hot and everything and I don‟t remember the smell. It was night, it was dark, I do
remember the bus ride to the 90th Replacement Battalion and all of the bus, and many
people will say this and the windows were open of course, but there was heavy mesh
screening over the windows. I think one of us asked the bus driver, “What‟s up with
that?” He said, “That‟s to keep the VC, or somebody from throwing a grenade inside the
bus”. “Oh, I guess this is a real situation now, they got screened in buses so they can‟t
throw grenades in and kill us”.
Interviewer: Now, were you in the Saigon area at this point?
Bien Hoa, 90th Replacement Battalion was where everybody newly arriving in the
country went to, and from there you went to wherever you went. 29:12
Interviewer: How much time did you spend with the replacement battalion before
they shipped you out?
Probably three days, as I recall three days. We‟re getting uniforms and, of course, none
of us knew where we were going initially. A couple of days later you came down on
orders and I was assigned to the 1st Cavalry Division.
Interviewer: In some situations, some replacement officers were actually asked to
kind of list what their preferred assignments would be and pick three units. Did
they have that for you or not?
Well, that was in OCS where you listed your top three and I don‟t remember, but I don‟t
think Vietnam maybe was number three, I guess Germany or something.
Interviewer: But, within Vietnam you weren’t picking what divisions to go to or
anything like that?
13
�Well, only when we went to what they called the First Team Academy. 30:05
Soldiers
reduced that to FTA, which was the moniker of “screw the army”, basically. When I got
there they asked us what unit we wanted to go to and I didn‟t know units from anything,
you know. Some guys actually enlisted, West Pointers, they‟re sort of indoctrinated, you
know for a lot longer than we were. I want to go to Custer‟s unit, or I want to go to the
5th Regiment or what have you, but I had a—they had kind of a map of the area and I
remember looking at the 2nd Battalion, 7th Calvary regimental area, and I thought, “Well,
their headquarters is surrounded by a whole bunch of fire bases”, and I thought, “Well
that might be—what do I know, that might be a safe place to pick”. 31:08 So, my first
choice was the 2nd of the 7th. They had already decided where I was going, that was
actually embedded in code in the order I got. If I could ever find the key to that code it
would be kind of interesting, but I didn‟t go to the 2nd of the 7th, I went to the 1st of the
7th, but that was no big deal either. And we were at the First Team Academy probably
about three days , and they gave us weapons familiarization, and we shot a M79, and we
did some rappelling, and I think, more than anything, it was just to get us acclimated to
the heat. Then after that three or four days they said, “Ok, you‟re going to the 1st of the
7th”, “Ok”, you know. 32:07 I got on a C7 Caribou, you know, they led us by hand
because there‟s nothing dumber than a 2nd lieutenant, you know, especially in a combat
environment. “You‟re going to the 1st of the 7th”, “How do I get there?” “Oh, we‟ll take
you down back to Bien Hoa and we‟ll take you right where you need to go, and then
eventually there‟ll be a plane going to Quan Loi, and make damn sure you‟re on it”,
“Ok”.
Interviewer: What region of Vietnam was your unit based in?
14
�I was in III Corps, down south, probably northwest of Saigon.
Interviewer: Between Saigon and the Cambodian border sort of?
Yeah, probably fifteen miles from the Cambodian border
Interviewer: What was the physical terrain like in that area?
Immediately around the brigade base camp it was right in the middle of a rubber
plantation. 33:03 The farther out you got to the individual firebases were single and
triple canopy bamboo, trees and bamboo interspersed, and big clearings here and there.
Interviewer: Was it fairly flat in that area?
For the most part, yeah
Interviewer: So, you go out to the brigade headquarters, and do you stay there
initially or do you go out to your battalion?
No, they took me to—again, I took that Caribou ride to Quan Loi and somebody knew I
was coming. I jumped off the helicopter and walked up to the little hut there and there
was an E4 or E5 just sitting there just—you know you—It‟s like you‟ve been transported
to the moon, you know. You don‟t have anybody that you know, it‟s just, “Anderson
you‟re going there, and I‟ll take you down, and you get on this plane and when you get
off somebody will be there”. 34:09 Somebody was there, you‟re just kind of walking
around, your eyes are this big, and you‟re thinking, “What the hell have I got myself
into?” Then a guy says, “Lieutenant, or LT?”, and I go, “Yeah”, and he says, “You‟re
going to the 1st of the 7th?” “Yeah”, and he says, “Well, jump in the Jeep”, and a quarter
mile down the road they took me to battalion headquarters and I signed in, I guess. They
know I was there, so I don‟t physically recall signing in, but then they said, “Go through
this door and Colonel Drudick will—he‟s in a little enclosure back here and he‟ll talk to
15
�you”, so I said, “Ok”. 35:06 If you‟d seen the movie Apocalypse Now, I don‟t know if
you have, but when Martin Sheen finally finds Marlin Brando, he‟s kind of talking and
then Brando kind of leans forward out of the shadows, that was kind of—of course that
movie came out after that experience, now that was kind of, looking back on it, that was
kind of the experience I had. I‟m in there and Colonel Drudick is kind of in the shadow
and then he kind of leans forward. We talked a little bit, you know, similar to what we‟re
doing now, and he gave me a Garry Owen crest, which is the regimental crest for the 7th
Cavalry, and he gave me a crossed saber similar to the 1 , and it had a 1, 7 because he
was the 1st of the 7th commander. 36:01 he said, “I‟m assigning you to Alpha Company
and Captain Keen is the CO and good luck”, and he shook my hand, I walked back out
front and I said, “I guess I‟m going to Alpha Company”, and, of course, they knew that,
and I said, “Duh, somebody lead me away again”. I didn‟t have a clue where Alpha
Company was, fifty yards away or whatever. First sergeant was in the rear, they knew I
was coming, and I spent no more than two days there getting a helmet and a rifle, getting
a poncho liner, getting a pack, and getting some food, and then the company was being
resupplied on the second or the third day, I don‟t remember now. 37:01 They said,
“Tomorrow morning we‟ll take you out to company”, and I can‟t even remember now
where I slept. The next morning I gathered up all my stuff and we went out and took the
Charlie, Charlie, the commanding control helicopter, that‟s usually the first one that‟s
going to the field, and jumped on that, it took us out to fire support base Westcott, that‟s
where we were operating out of at the time, and I jumped off with the other guys and I
said, “Now what?” He said, “Now we kind of wait until the log bird, the resupply
helicopter, shows up and then the company will be moving to what we call a log site”,
16
�which is a supply site, and he said, “Then we‟ll take out the mail and all of the stuff that
had been requested the night before, plus you”. 38:10 I said, “Ok”, so it seemed like it
was a couple of hours before the log bird showed up ad they said, “Ok, LT”, we‟re going
now‟, so I got on the helicopter and they took me out to where the company was.
Interviewer: So, what happens when you get out there?
Well, a couple of things. It was an interesting helicopter ride. I think the crew chief saw
that I was new and he probably radioed to the pilot and he said, „We got a brand new
f*%#ing Lieutenant here, let‟s give him a ride, maybe we can make him toss his cookies
or something”. 39:06 That‟s the only thing I can think of because we backed out of the
revetment and he pulled pitch and we went down the runway and then he was doing this,
and flying map of the earth, and I thought it was great, like a rollercoaster ride. I was
sitting on a box in the center of the thing with my feet sticking out, so I don‟t go tumbling
out the door. I guess they finally got tired of that and figured, “We‟re not going to make
him barf”, and that‟s the only thing I can think of because every other helicopter ride I
had was never up, down, or sideways and banking, that‟s the only thing I can think of.
They dropped me off and, of course, I knew Captain Keen was the company commander,
and I said, “Where‟s Captain Keen?” 40:04 They said, “He‟s over there, the guy kind of
standing up without a shirt on”, so I went over there and reported to Patrick J. Keen. A
Captain, a farmer born in Garryowen, Ireland, actually he was, but I didn‟t find that out
until later. He said, Welcome to Alpha Company”.
Interviewer: Did you have a job with Alpha Company?
I did, he assigned me as the mortar platoon leader, and I thought, “This is not going to be
good for me or for anybody else”. That wasn‟t my—I mean we had familiarization and
17
�everything. I knew about it, but that wasn‟t really what I wanted to be, so I said, “Ok,
where are they?” 41:00 He showed me where they were and at that time we were
humping the 81mm mortar in the field, and base plate was eighty pounds, or something
and the tube, and the tripod and the aiming stakes, and everybody in the platoon had to
carry two mortar rounds it seemed like. I was mortar platoon leader for about—until the
next resupply, and again, I think it was more—and we did fire it a couple of times, but it
was acclimation to being in the field. Now you got all your rucksack stuff on, now it‟s
kinda real. If something happens you‟ll be, you‟ll not be up front necessarily, you‟ll be
back enough where you can see what‟s going on, and then again, like I said, that only
lasted like until the next resupply. 42:03 The 2nd Platoon leader was sent back to
become the executive officer and I moved up to be his replacement as the 2nd Platoon
leader.
Interviewer: Now, the time you were with the mortar platoon did much happen?
Did they get in any fights or anything?
We fired it more just for primarily, to get rid of some of the weight. I mean, you didn‟t
fire it without the company commander's permission, of course, but I think it was more of
an act, we‟re going to be moving out there 4,000 meters away, so let‟s drop three or four
rounds out in there and announce that we‟re coming, I guess, but—of course, the guys
that were in the mortar platoon, they just said, “Ok, we‟re going to shoot here”, and we
knew where we were and they knew what to do. 43:05 And again, I didn‟t have to
double check the FDC or any of that stuff. Here‟s the deal and charge two, or whatever,
and shoot the mortar round 4,000 meters, or whatever it was, and so they did their thing.
18
�Interviewer: So, you get orders from someplace else if you use the mortars, or
request, and then they okay it?
Yeah, that would have been all kind of unknown to me. We weren‟t on the move when
that was happening, we were—it seems like we got resupplied when I joined the
company and we stayed there that night, and then the next morning a patrol was going
out and Captain Keen wanted to shoot some 81mm and high explosive out into that
vicinity and it seems like that‟s what we did. 44:07 It wasn‟t an actual in contact firing
mission or anything like that.
Interviewer: So, it was relatively quiet at the point when you join them?
Yes
Interviewer: So, what was it like leading a platoon then when you go take over
there?
Well, I had—I had two E6‟s, one was the platoon sergeant and one was the guy that was
kind of training, I guess, to be a platoon sergeant. Then there was the dumbest lieutenant
on the planet and that would have been me. Here I am a, say 4 [?] or something.
Interviewer: Did the fellow you were replacing stay a little to get you oriented or
just move right out?
He moved right out
Interviewer: Did anybody explain to you what you were supposed to be doing?
Well, you‟re the platoon leader and now you have five months of commissioned service
and you know that you‟re the guy that‟s now in charge, but nobody said, “This is the
deal”. 45:11 Again, I was, I like to think smart enough as opposed to dumb enough, to
just—you know, that first morning when I‟m really in charge, Captain Keen said, “Ok,
19
�you‟re going to go out and you‟re going to do a thousand meter patrol out and back”, and
blah, blah, blah, “and you‟re going to go light”, which means you‟re just going to go out
with your weapons and your ammo and your pack and all that is going to stay behind.
We had a scout dog with us at that time, or with the company. “Take the dog with you”,
and I said, “Ok”, so I got Sergeant Ikely and Sergeant Spencer and I said, “Ok, here we
are and we‟ve got to go out a 1,000 meters and then go over a 1,000 meters and then
come back”. 46:10 They said, “Ok”, and I said, “We leave in ten minutes”, or
whatever, and they said, “Ok”, and then the dog handler was there and I said, “This is
what we‟re going to do”, I guess, and he said, “Ok”. He knew why he was there; he
walks around up front, up close, so the dog can smell. When the dog smelled something
he, or she, went into what they call an alert status and freeze or what have you, so, away
we went.
Interviewer: Now, did the sergeant sort of tell you where to go in a line, or anything
like that, or did you just kind of all start going out? 47:02
I don‟t know if they did, I don‟t remember if that was the patrol, the 1st patrol, where I
started walking where I did, but if it wasn‟t, it was shortly after that. We‟d have a “point
man” and we‟d have what we call a “slack man”. The slack man‟s basic job was to kind
of cover and keep track of the route you‟re walking and then the squad leader and then
me, so it either started with that patrol, or shortly after, that I walked fourth because you
can‟t run anything if you‟re at the rear and you don‟t know what the hell‟s going on if
you‟re at the rear. Sometimes you don‟t know what the hell‟s going on when you‟re
fourth, but you have a better chance of knowing what‟s going on the closer you are to the
front.
20
�Interviewer: Now, did you have a radio operator with you? 48:01
I did, and Gary May was my radio operator and he was right behind me, so we had gone
maybe 700 meters and the dog alerted. Probably at that time I was probably sixth and
the dog would have been in front of me, and we didn‟t always operate with dogs. In fact,
as I recall, that was probably the only time. So, the dog freezes up and locks, and I
thought, “What the heck is going on with this?” The people that had worked with dogs
before knew what was going on and I said, “Well the dog‟s alerted, what does that
mean?” He smells, or senses, or sees something, and my mind says, “Oh goodie, now
what do I do?” 49:08 It‟s like the film is running and it‟s like they stop it. Ok, it‟s not
now candidate Anderson it‟s Lieutenant Anderson, “Ok Lt. what are you going to do?”
So, I called Ike, Sergeant Ikely, and I said, “Can you come up here?” And he did, and he
said, “What‟s going on?” I said, “Well, the dog alerted”, and this was a nonevent to him
because he had six months in the field, or something, and I said, „what do I do?” He said,
“Well, normally what we would do is recon by fire. I go, “What the hell does that
mean?” We didn‟t do any recons by fire in OCS or anything like that, you know, this is
OJT for the most part. He told me what to do and he said, “But, before we do that you
should radio back to the company commander and tell him what you‟re going to do,
otherwise they‟ll hear the M60 go off and they‟ll think we‟re in contact or something”.
50:14 I said, “Ok”, and radioed Captain keen and said, “The dog alerted and we‟re
going to recon by fire”, and he said, “Ok”. We did and we got no return fire or anything,
so, okay, we keep driving on, so we another--whatever it was, and then made a right turn
and made a big sweep. Years later guys were telling me that they couldn‟t believe that
the first patrol that they ever went on with me they thought, “Oh, crap”, because, I guess
21
�the previous guy, Lieutenant Fowler, if they were going to do one of these things; they‟d
go out 500 meters and sit down and yuck it up. 51:06 Here I am. You know, it‟s a
thousand degrees and we‟re doing what I was told we were going to do. They were all
cranky, nobody ever said anything, but nothing happened, which I‟m thankful for,
because I was just brand new and I didn‟t know anybody‟s names or anything.
Interviewer: How long did it take before things got a little more interesting?
It was about three weeks. We moved from firebase Westcott to firebase Jerry, and this
was in the middle of November, maybe. 52:02 I forgot to say that I‟d gone to jungle
school down in Panama, so I didn‟t actually get to Vietnam until the first ten days of
October. We were picked up in the field and air assaulted to a new area of operation at a
firebase called Jerry, and it was late in the day and as we were—my platoon was the last
one in and they just dropped us off and we got mortared, the front of the—because we‟re
outside the wire and trying to figure out which way we‟re going to go. As we found out
later, they mortared Jerry pretty much regularly, but with a helicopter—they‟re always
trying to hit the firebase or hit the helicopter and what have you, but all of the rounds hit
up front and we had four or five guys very seriously wounded. 53:06 One guy was
blinded, I guess for life, but three or four rounds and that‟s the end of it and then we get
them inside the firebase to the doctor, medical doctor. Then we go on our way and they
get treated and sent back to wherever.
Interviewer: How many men do you have in your platoon at this point?
I probably had—again this was the whole company that was hit. These weren‟t any of
my guys, so the company, in the field, probably had about a hundred and ten, maybe, and
I , maybe, twenty five. I think the most I ever had in the field was twenty five. The
22
�fewest I had was about seventeen. 54:00 So, we marched off the firebase and then there
just sign [?] everywhere and then we set up and, you know, and nothing happened that
night and then next day, late, we were walking and I didn‟t have point, my platoon didn‟t
have point, but a couple of NVA ran up a little trail to the right and the point element
fired on them and didn‟t hit them or anything then. So, we were going to see where they
went, so the point element got up to that trail, got off the trail and walked up 30 or 40
meters and somebody finally said to Captain Keen, you know, “Get farther away from
this trail”. 55:02 First of all, we just saw somebody there and we know that they know
we‟re here because we fired on them, so it‟s not a good idea to be this close to a trail
because you could, essentially, be walking into an ambush, so I‟m assuming he realized
that, or somebody told him that, whatever, we got off the trail. Then my platoon got right
up to that little trail and I was just kind of standing there looking up the trail like—this
trail was like this floor here, I mean it was that hard packed, you know, a thousand people
could have walked on it and you would have never known it, it was just beat solid. I was
looking up that trail wondering, well, I‟m glad they got off the trail because you could see
it just kind of disappear. 56:00 I think, “That would be a good place for them to fire on
us”, and I no sooner said that and they fired on us, but as quite often happens in those
kinds of fleet meeting engagements, bullets are going everywhere, but It‟s not an aimed
response. The initial firing might be aimed, but the response, usually isn‟t, you just,
aaah! So, we moved off, and again, it was late in the day and Keen said, “We‟re going to
set up here”, and we did, and then he called me, he started to, and then he called me over
and he said, “I want you to go out and up that trail, not on the trail, but up parallel to the
trail, three or four hundred meters and ambush the thing”, and I thought, “Oh, great, I
23
�know that there‟s at least two of them up there, somewhere”. But I said, “Ok”. 57:06
We went up and we found the trail and we set up claymore mines and we backed off, you
know, a hundred feet, or whatever that wire was on the claymore, and we just laid down
and waited for somebody to tumble down the trail. I guess, fortunately, nobody did, but
we could hear, and it rained that night too and the mosquitoes—the whole episode was
miserable. We could hear, off in the distance, chopping, so they were chopping trees and
making bunkers, or doing something with the trees, and we could hear laughing. 58:00
I suspect we were probably within a couple of hundred meters of where they were. Like I
said, nobody came down the trail and the next morning we picked up out stuff and back
tracked to the company and then we went on our way, but that whole place was just criss
crossed with trails and you could see where they had rested in the night, or in the daytime
because they had their little cooking fires that—they weren‟t warm, they were all done,
but you could see all along that trail where, probably, a whole company, or more, of
NVA had been in that area. It was like every two days, two or three days, we‟d get fired
on or we‟d fire on them. 59:00 We didn‟t have any casualties, or anything like that,
until about a week into this new area of operation we got into a horrendous fire fight for
about five or six hours. Again, I guess I was lucky because my platoon was walking last
that day and it was mostly the front two platoons that really got into it. We didn‟t have
anybody killed, we had sixteen or seventeen wounded that had to be medevac‟d and it
was a long—it was a lot longer day for me because I wasn‟t really under the direct fire,
just kind of sit back—you‟re on guard, of course, you‟re looking left and right and behind
you and everything, in fact I never left the—where we slept the night before. 00:03
Interviewer: So, were you, essentially, sort of the company reserve at that point?
24
�Yeah. I did have to send my machine guns up because the other two guns malfunctioned,
and my gunners weren‟t happy at all because they were both six, almost seven, months in
the field and they had seen a lot of action, but they went up, they didn‟t squawk. Our
guns, I think, were the telling tale. The gunners were meticulous about keeping, not only
their guns clean, but their ammunition clean and other gunners weren‟t that meticulous.
But, we had to pass ammunition up from my platoon at one time because you were in the
jungle and you couldn‟t get ammunition down to you. 1:09 That got to be a little
nervous, nerve wracking when, “Oh, not only did they not have much ammunition up
here, and now we don‟t have much ammunition back here”, but that went on until late in
the afternoon and then we set up right—we didn‟t move very far, and set up basically.
The next morning, because the 2nd platoon, my platoon, it was the one that was least beat
up, you know, we had to go back—we had to lead the company back into the area, and
that was pretty nerve wracking because the area had been worked over so heavily with air
strikes, and Cobras, and artillery. 2:06
We were real close to Firebase Jerry, we were
only about three clicks away from Gerry. I mean, we had all the battalion organic fire
really close by. The place was just beat silly with trees—it‟s like a tornado goes through
these places because if you‟ve ever seen that kind of damage to trees, they—there‟s no
logic to how they go, they‟re all inter—they‟re like pick-up sticks when you drop them.
And, of course, interspersed in all that are pieces of enemy soldiers, and bloody
bandages, you know. We got hit badly, but they got hit worse, I think. They were gone,
of course, so other than the-- I don‟t want to say scared, other than the unnerving part of
the whole thing; it was pretty routine, I guess. 3:14
what we had to do.
25
We had to go in there and this is
�Interviewer: Now, did you have any kind of understanding as to what the larger
purpose of your mission was at that point?
The larger purpose of that particular mission was to just go in there and evaluate what we
got into, but, I mean, essentially we got ambushed. The 1st platoon leader, George
Atkins, his platoon was walking point and he did a marvelous job, and the 3rd platoon
leader, which was walking second, Freddy Davis, and he actually got wounded and never
came back with the company. But, our missions, really, were to aggressively and
actively patrol and find the bad guys if you could and raise hobs on them. 4:14
Interviewer: Was this an area where there were a lot of underground tunnels or
booby traps, or things like that?
No, we were fortunate that there were bunkers, and that‟s what was happening that day, it
was a small bunker complex, but no tunnels that we ever found. I mean, most of the
tunnels, I think, were down Lai Khe or around Cu Chi, in that area, but primarily
bunkers, fortified fighting positions, you know. The North Vietnamese, you know,
they‟re excellent soldiers, they‟ve been doing this for twenty years, you know. 5:03
Their camouflage was excellent and there were times when you‟d just walk up, you‟d
step and you‟d look down and you‟re standing right in front of a bunker aperture, and that
happened to me a couple of different times. I‟m fourth and the three other guys that
walked by never saw it.
Interviewer: In those situations, was the bunker not occupied?
The bunker was not occupied, but as far as I know it was not occupied. It was—and of
course now, I‟ve been the platoon leader for three weeks, so now I‟ve got more
familiarity with what‟s going on. I know the guys' names and—but, George Atkins, he‟d
26
�been—I remember, I was so happy to see him join the company because that meant that I
wasn‟t the bottom—I wasn‟t the dumbest lieutenant anymore, now it was him. 6:07 But,
he‟s only been there two week when this happened, and he did a marvelous job in the
company. I always wonder, you know what would have happened it that had been me
out there. But his point man actually spotted the NVA claymore and was able to tell
George and George was actually radioing Captain Keen when they detonated it, but at
least by then they knew it was there and they‟re not just staring at it when it went off, so
they had—some of them were wounded, but not as bad as if they had just stumbled onto
it and then it had detonated right away. He did a marvelous job.
Interviewer: Once you locate a bunker, or a place where they’re actually fighting
from, can you call in, sort of, the heavy weapons to blow it up? 7:00
Of course the heaviest weapon you have in a rile platoon, unless you‟re carrying heavy
mortar, is your M60 machine gun, and if they‟re occupied you want to get as much fire
on them as you can, and at least to suppress what they‟re trying to do to you. If you can,
you want to pull back and then you use your Cobras, you know, with the 2.75 folding fin
rockets and the mini guns and things like that, but if you‟re trying to use artillery, the
Cav, under normal circumstances—I know you‟re working another veteran, Mike
McGregor, he was an artillery forward observer sergeant, he would know, but as I recall,
generally you couldn‟t shoot artillery closer than 600 meters unless you were in contact
and then it had to be danger close and there were all kinds of rules and things like that.
8:07 Again, most of these engagements were—the vast majority were 25 meters, or less.
I had a lot of confidence in our artillery, but I never would have tried to call artillery that
close unless it was a last resort and you were completely pinned down and you couldn‟t
27
�get Cobras or if you were about out of ammunition. There are situations where you have
to do that, but being that close that would have been about the last resort.
Interviewer: How long did you spend as a platoon leader?
I was the platoon leader from about October until the middle of February, October of
1969, until the middle of February of 1970. 9:10 Then I was taken out of the field, you
know, to confirm what they call a rear job. “You did a good job out in the field, and now
we‟re going to reward you by giving you one that‟s a little less dangerous”. It was the
most miserable job I have ever had in my like, I think. It was—I was in charge of, at the
brigade base camp, of one quarter of the base defense. Now again, I was still a 2nd
lieutenant, all the other guys in charge of this were captains. They gave me two other
guys to work with me, and so really, there were three of us and we worked twenty-one
hours a day. 10:05 We had to make sure the trip flares were on, we had to do this—and
we didn‟t have any help, just—and to make it worse, I was reporting to the most
obnoxious Lieutenant Colonel that ever wore a silver oak leaf, and we had to report to
him every day. He wanted to know how many trip flares were put out and how many feet
of this, and how many—and frankly, it just got to be too much. I was working my fanny
off and making no, seeming, contribution, because if I needed anything I didn‟t know
where to go or what to do, and these captains with many years of service, they knew and
they probably even knew guys from previous tours or whatever, so if they needed
something, they—and it just wasn‟t working. 11:07 That lasted for about three weeks
and then—I was still assigned to headquarters company of 1sr of 7th, but—so, I got called
up to battalion headquarters, Major Stillman, who was the XO at the time, said, “Well, I
got, I guess, good news and bad news for you”, “You can‟t send me to Vietnam because
28
�I‟m already here, so what‟s the good news?” He said, “Well, this job obviously isn‟t
working. Colonel LaBrose‟s not happy with you”, and I said, “Major, I‟m not happy
with Colonel LaBrose, and I‟m breaking my fanny here and nothing is happening”, and
Stillman said, “I know you are, you‟re working hard, but it just isn‟t working”. 12:01
“Ok”, and he said, “I‟m going to send you back to the field”, and inside I go, “Yes”,
because I was good at that, so I said, “Well I got, I really only got one question”, and he
said, “What‟s that?” “Am I going to get smashed on my officer efficiency report?” He
said, “No, this will show it casual, or we‟ll do something, but this will be a learning
experience for you and you won‟t get hammered on your OER”, and I said, “Ok, good”.
He said, “Oh, and you‟re not going back to Alpha Company, you‟re going to Charlie
Company”, and I go, “Oh, Charlie Company?” He said, “Yes, you know when you left
Alpha Company we backfilled you, and you‟re going to go to Charlie Company and then
were going to pull that Lieutenant out and he‟s going to do your job”. 13:05 I said, “Do
I have to go to Charlie Company?” I knew their company commander because he‟d been
the headquarters CO and he was pretty not with the program. He said, “That‟s where
you‟re going”, and I sad, “Ok, thanks”, and part of me felt good, and I thought, “Gosh, at
least I‟m out of this base defense gig, but golly, now I got to go to Charlie Company and
I have to start over training guys and everything”, so I went there and, I guess, the next
day I went out to the firebase and the CO was in, he was in the medical bunker, and the
battalion or brigade dentist was out there working on him. 14:06 I remember him sitting
in the chair looking back. I went in to report to him and he said, “Oh, ok, have you ever
been in the field before?” I said, “Yes sir, I was with Alpha Company in the field for
over four months”, and he said, “You‟re going to be the 3rd platoon leader”, and I said,
29
�“Ok, where might I find the 3rd platoon?” he gave me a general idea, and of course I‟d
been on and off that firebase with Alpha Company a dozen times, so I knew right where
they were. I said, “Who‟s the 3rd platoon sergeant?” “Pat Hansen” and I said, “Ok”, so I
shuffled over to 3rd platoon and introduced myself to Pat Hansen and their platoon leader,
I forget what his name is now, but I‟ll remember it afterwards. 15:08 He probably took
me around and introduced me to the guys, or maybe it was Pat, I don‟t remember now.
He left and he went back to the rear and took over my job and he lasted until he rotated,
so I guess he did ok, he was drunk most of the time, but maybe that‟s what it took to do
well in that job, I don‟t know. So, now I‟m back with a different company and the
company commander that I had seen in the rear area, and it didn‟t take too long for a
couple three or four days out in the field and, you know, he didn‟t know what he was
doing, he was armor officer too, but he was not cut from the same bolt of cloth as Captain
Keen, my previous CO, but you do the best you can with the cards you‟re dealt. 16:05
Interviewer: What kind of situation were you in at that time? Were you still
patrolling jungle?
Yeah, but the terrain was similar, there was a lot of bamboo and things like that. We—
there were only two times out in the field that I ever took my boots off. The first was the
night before we had that big contact in November, and firebases would have what they
call mad minutes where it wasn‟t the same time all the time, rarely did, they last a minute,
but the purpose of the thing, they had to shoot up bad ammunition, but really that was
purpose number two. Purpose number one was to just shoot fire out everywhere in case
anybody was trying to sneak up on you and if they were, and you were firing them up,
maybe that would trigger early, their attack, or what have you. 17:05 We were so close,
30
�like I indicated before, to Jerry, that when they were shooting that night bullets were
coming into our perimeter. I jumped in the foxhole and the thing was full of termites, in
the bottom , and their little pinchers, you know, they like to bite, so I jumped in the hole
and in a matter of seconds, you know, their biting my feet. I didn‟t know what it was
until the next morning, so I jumped back out of the hole and that was the first time I had
my boots off. The second time was with Charlie Company and its pitch dark, which you
never know how dark it is in a situation like this until it is dark and you literally can‟t see
your hand in front of your face. 18:00 so, I took my boots off and, I don‟t know, ten or
eleven o‟clock I hear a M60 fire and it is one of my guns, so I stumble around, try to find
my glasses to try to find my boots, and I make my was over to the foxhole where my
gunner was and I said, “What‟s going on?” And he said, “Well, I thought I saw
something out there”, and I said, “Why the hell did you shoot the machine gun? You
never give away your heavy firepower position unless you‟re really under attack”, and
then I hear this voice off to the side, “Because I told him to do it 3-6”, it was Captain
Bouyev, and I kind of looked, and again, it‟s really dark and you can‟t see, and I said,
“Well sir, that was a bad idea, now we‟re going to have to move this gun in the dark and
that‟s going to make a lot of noise and everything”. 19:07 He said, “But there was
something out there”, and I‟m kind of looking and I can‟t see anything, and I said,
“Where?” He said, “Well, watch”, and he shoots with his 45 and he carries tracers in his
45. Of course you can see them going out, and he says, “Right there, there‟s a dead
NVA”, and I wasn‟t there, so I don‟t know, but I said, “Let‟s do something a little
different here, let‟s shoot a M79 out there”, “Oh, ok”, so I got my thumper guy over there
and I actually did it, I shot a M79 over there. 20:06 If there was something there it was
31
�either, A. gone, or it‟s dead from the M79 rounds. “We got to go out and check”, he said,
and I said, “What? We don‟t know what‟s out there, maybe there is somebody there, and
maybe he‟s just wounded. Are we going to go crawling out there?” He said, “Yup, come
with me”, and by now-- my guy that became one of my best friends in the service was the
1st platoon leader, he shows up.
Interviewer: We were a spot in the story where you and your company commander
are there is the perimeter and you fire off etc., and then the Lieutenant from the
first platoon comes up.
Phil Zook, the 1st platoon leader comes over and he became, and still is, one of my best
friends from my army days. 21:06 He says, “what‟s going on Andy?” I said, “Well,
Captain Bouyev thinks”, Phil and I were having a conversation like you are and Captain
Bouyev is right there, but we‟re just ignoring him, and I said, “Captain Bouyev thinks
there‟s—there was an NVA out there, that‟s why he had the gun open up”, and Phil
probably said something grumbly about, “You never shoot an M60 at night unless you‟re
in contact”. „So, Captain Bouyev‟s going out there and I‟m going to go with him”, I said.
“I can‟t let him go out there”, so Zook says, “Well, I‟ll go with you”. So, here‟s the
company commander, he‟s crawling, here‟s me, the “should have known better”
Lieutenant, crawling, and here‟s Phil Zook, who should have known better, he‟s
crawling. 22:07 Of course, we had left the perimeter now, “So if you hear something,
please don‟t shoot, or throw grenades or something because we got three lunatic officers
out here crawling around outside the perimeter”, and again, from where the gunner was to
where Captain Bouyev thought this enemy soldier was thirty meters maybe, I mean, it
wasn‟t a long way, but when you‟re out in front, in the dark, in front of a rifle company,
32
�there‟s always the chance that somebody doesn‟t get the word, or something. All it takes
is one guy shooting and the whole company opens up, you know. So, we‟re crawling, I
guess about as slow as you could possibly crawl, and finally, I think I said to Bouyev, I
said, “Six, this is a bad idea, we‟re out here in front of “. 23:11
Of course, I‟m
probably whispering it, not knowing if there‟s anything out there or not. I said, “We‟re
out here exposed, we need to get back in the perimeter and we‟ll check it out in the
morning”, and I guess he finally decided, “Boy, this is a dumb idea, all of us out here in
front of everybody”, and we kind of turned around and crawled back and then the next
morning there was nothing there. No evidence of any blood or anything, so was there
somebody there? I don‟t know, but probably not, we found no evidence. This was early
April, probably, when all this is going on. And then a big event on the 26th of April, we
got in a big, horrific, fire fight again. 24:13 Phil was out doing a clover leaf and I‟d
been left behind as an ambush, and then Phil got ambushed, and then I was hurrying back
to the company, and Captain Bouyev was, as I was coming to the perimeter he was just
going out, and he said, “Take charge of the perimeter, I‟m going out and I‟m going to get
one with my knife”, and I said, “Ok”. That was just the guy's persona; he was just full of
himself. He was a lousy—maybe he was a good tank officer, I don‟t know, because that
was his branch. 25:03 In my opinion, a crappy infantry company commander, but—so,
that was the last time I ever saw him alive, you know. He went out with part of the 2nd
platoon, or with the 2nd platoon, and then I kind of came in and just was listening to the
sounds of, at that time, Phil shooting, and they were shooting B40‟s at them or RPG‟s,
RPD‟s if machine guns, and AK‟s and SK‟s and the whole nine yards, you know.
Intermittent in all that is Phil shooting back, his platoon shooting back.
33
�Interviewer: Now were you in a position to hear whatever he was saying on the
radio?
Well, I was able to hear what Captain Bouyev was saying, and at some point in all of this,
Phil‟s radio and then his platoon sergeant‟s radio had been shot out. 26:18 So, I had no
communication with them at all, and then there was a hasty call from Bouyev that we
needed to come out there, “We‟re pinned down”, and I reply, “Roger, we‟ll be out there
momentarily”, and so I yelled over to—I‟d gotten a new E5, and Pat Hansen had gotten a
rear job, so he left as platoon sergeant, and Lasco, I think his name was. So, I said, “Get
our guys ready, we‟re going to go out there and do what we can do”. 27:08
Interviewer: Would you be leaving anybody still at the perimeter when you do
that?
Just the 4th platoon stayed behind and they were a small, they weren‟t a complete rifle
platoon, so they stayed back to guard the—to make their own little perimeter, and they
had a radio, and that, really, was going to be our last—that worked out really, was the last
reserves. So, as I‟m standing up, and we‟re just getting ready to go out, a B40 or RPG, or
something, hit close by where we were standing and knocked down three or four of my
guys and it didn‟t knock me down, but a piece hit me, and then I look and everybody gets
up, but like five guys. “Oh shit”, so we get the medics over there and we went out. 28:09
maybe there were fifteen of us, because the other guys were wounded. I was wounded
too, but it was a miniscule wound compared to what most people get. It was easy to
follow the trail that Captain Bouyev and the other guys went, not knowing where
anybody was, that was the most expedient, it might not have been the safest, but at least I
could find out where they were by following their trail. So, we, and we didn‟t go very
34
�far, you know, 100 meters, because this all happened very close to our perimeter, and
quite often happens, there‟s a lot of firing and then all of a sudden there‟s nothing, and
about the time I got up to where the headquarters group was, the firing kind of stopped.
29:14 I remember our forward observer, we called him “Bull”, his last name was
Durham, and he was a huge fellow, and he was as close to the ground as he could get, and
he was probably still two feet off the ground, he was just a bull of a man. He looked up
at me and he said, “Andy, you better get down, it‟s really bad up here”, and of course, I‟d
heard all this bad firing, but there wasn‟t anything happening right then. Then I hear off
to my left, was a Termite mound, a huge Termite mound, and behind that was the
battalion commander‟s radio operator, the guy who had the radio on the battalion end,
and he was just screaming, “Were all going to be killed, the 1st platoon is wiped out”.
30:13 Of course, by now the battalion commander‟s on that radio and this kid is just
going nuts. Off to my right, on the other side of Bull, I could see the medics working on
one of guys and they were yelling at him, “Stay with us, stay with us, you‟ll be ok, you‟ll
be ok”, so I went over to the Termite mound and grabbed the radio away from this kid. I
said, “This is “Cool killer 3-6”, I‟m up here now and I‟ll let you know what‟s going on
when I know what‟s going on. I just got here and I don‟t know who‟s a line one, who‟s a
line two, there‟s no radio commo between 1st platoon and me, or 1st platoon and anybody,
six is not here”. 31:07 That was probably a sergeant that I was telling that to on the
radio, and then the Colonel got on the radio and he wanted to know, “What‟s going on?
Have I just lost a company?” I said, “I just got here, leave me alone and let me develop
what the hell‟s going on”, and he said, “Tell me what‟s going on as soon as you know”,
and I said, “Loco”, and I gave the radio back to the kid, and said, “Do not talk in that
35
�radio, and do not answer. If they call you don‟t do anything”, and I said, “Where‟s
Bouyev?” The kid said, “I don‟t know”, and I; thinking, “Well, this is nuts, you‟re
supposed to be with the company commander and the other was on the company net and
he was just sitting there, but now‟s not the time to tell somebody what they‟re supposed
to be doing, you know. 32:01 I‟m going through my mind, “What?” Then I asked him,
“Do you have any contact with the 1st platoon?” He said, “No, we haven‟t”, and by the
amount of firing that had been going on, I thought, “Well, they‟re wiped out”, you know.
So, I put a gun team over on the other side of where the medics were working on a guy,
and then I had one kind of close by me, and I said, I told my radio operator, “Just sit
here”, and I don‟t know why I didn‟t say, “Follow me”. I said, “I‟m going to go up there
and find out what the hell‟s going on, really”, which I think in retrospect was kind of
dumb because I didn‟t take the radio operator with me. So, I started crawling up and I
hadn‟t gotten in the prone position and crawled ten feet when it all started up again.
33:00 It was real personal at that time because it seemed like everybody was shooting at
me. The bullets, they weren‟t going by six inches away from me, they were going right
over the top of my head, and I‟m thinking, “This is not a good thing, but “follow me” is
the motto of the infantry”, so I‟m still crawling out there and then I was kind of thinking,
“This is a real bad idea, as far as I know I‟m the only one out here, and as far as I know,
all the bad guys can see me because they‟re shooting at me”, and then I saw the 2nd
platoon leader, Danny Clark, he came low crawling past me as fast as he could low crawl,
and he said, “ Bouyev‟s dead”. 34:01 I said, “Where‟s your platoon?” he said, “I don‟t
have any idea, “Bouyev‟s dead”, and I said, “Are you sure?” He said, “Yeah, I crawled
right by him, he‟s dead”, and of course, he‟s by now—he never stopped when he told me
36
�all this, he‟s just going. I said to myself, “This is—I can‟t let him get back there and get
on the radios”, so then I turned around and I crawled back and got behind the Termite
mound and called the colonel back and I said, “You know, we got a situation here. I
don‟t know what‟s going on. One of the guys says six is a line one”, and as I‟m talking
on the radio I‟m watching Manny Torrez, you know, the—he had a second chest wound
and the medics did everything they could, but he died while I was watching. 35:03
Colonel Jahn, he was just questions, questions, and questions, “What‟s going on? You
got to find out what‟s going on. You got to tell me what‟s happening with one six”, and I
said, “I don‟t know what‟s happening with one six, it may be just five of us here, I have
no idea, you just have to give me time”, and he said, “I don‟t have time, you know the
Colonel”— you know the brigade—see it‟s the echelon, so here‟s the Colonel Jahn, and
here‟s Colonel Kingston up here, and finally I hear, “ break, break, break, this is Gary
Owen Six”, or whatever, and I knew that was the brigade commander. He said, “Red
Baron Six”, which was Jahn, and Jahn comes on and he says, “This is Gary Own Six, get
off his back and let him develop the situation, he‟ll tell you what the hell‟s going on when
he knows what‟s going on, leave him alone and let him fight the battle”. 36:06
“Roger”, and I never had any more trouble from Jahn after that. So, we‟re just sitting
there and then my machine gun team, all if a sudden, yells at me and he says, “Do we
have presits?” I was close enough so we could see each other, and he said, “Do we have
people out there?” I said, “I don‟t think so”, and he said, “”somebody‟s running,
somebody‟s running away”, and, of course, I didn‟t know if that was our guys or what, so
I said, “Well, just keep a steady eye”, and then all of a sudden I heard kind of movement
off to the left, and here comes Zook, somehow, disengaged and got his people back.
37
�37:01 I said, “Do you have all of your people?” he said, “Yes”, and I said, “Well,
where‟s Clark‟s people?” He said, “They‟re coming, they‟re behind me”, so then I told
both gunners, “If you see any movement out there now, fire it up because it‟s enemy. All
of our guys are back”, so then I called Jahn back and I said, “Ok, I‟ve got, essentially I‟ve
got good news, 1st platoon is disengaged, the 2nd platoon is behind them. I know we got
one line one and we probably got fifteen or twenty line two‟s, wounded. I still don‟t
know the status of six, but I‟ll, hopefully know something about that soon”, so Zook was
sitting right there behind the Termite mound kind of panting, because he had taken over
one of his machine guns when the gunner got wounded, and he was firing and then that
gun got shot up and then his radio operator had also been shot. 38:10 I said, “Well,
Clark said the Bouyev is dead and he‟s out there”, and Phil said, “Yeah, he probably is “,
and I said, “We can‟t leave him out there”, and he said, “I am not going back out there”,
Phil said. I said, “Well, we can‟t leave him out there”, and Phil said, “You can go out
there, but I‟m not going back out there”, so I said, “Ok”, and by then the firing had kind
of stopped because what my gunner had seen, they had enough. 39:02 Of course by then
I‟d been calling in Cobras and stuff like that .
Interviewer: So there had been some kind of air strike?
They were in bunkers and they were—the 11th Armored—this was a lot of bamboo
around this area and the 11th Armored Cav had been going through this area with their
APCs and their tanks and everything, and the NVA had built bunkers real close to this,
thinking, “Well, if they went through here once, maybe they‟ll come through here again,
and we‟ll be right on top of them and we‟ll blast them with our RPGs or whatever and
take them out”, so I grabbed Locko and I said, “Let‟s go out there and see what we see”,
38
�and I guess that he was new enough that he said, “Ok”, rather than, “Are you nuts?”
40:02 So we went out there 25 meters, maybe not even that, and there Captain Bouyev
was, dead as a door nail, he‟d been shot through the forehead. We rolled him over to
make sure he was dead. There wasn‟t any horror to it. The thing that was so bizarre that
I remember was that he didn‟t have his glasses. I thought, “Where the heck were his
glasses?” Then so, I guess, Kerry grabbed an arm, or two arms, and I grabbed his feet, or
one of each, and we kind of carried him back to the Termite mound and then I radioed to
Jahn and I said, “Well, six is a line one and we‟ve recovered his body, and everybody‟s
moving back to the perimeter”. 41:12 So there‟s nothing—you know you hear the term
“dead weight”, you know a hundred—he was a stocky man and he weighed, maybe, a
hundred and fifty pounds, you know, but that‟s a lot of weight when you‟re getting no
help, no movement. I had the gun team, I said, “Give me your gun and you two guys
carry him back and we‟ll just back our way right back the thing and I‟ll be the guy with
the gun covering as we move back”. So, I took the M60 and there was no incoming fire
there, but having been once where heavy identifire and then it stopped heavy identifire
[?] and then it stopped, you know you don‟t know, so I just fired them up as we went
backwards. 42:18 Then we got back to the perimeter and by now they‟re starting the
medevac‟s. They had to use the jungle penetrator because there wasn‟t a place for them
to land, so everybody was going up on the jungle penetrator. Bloody bandages
everywhere and it was a real mess.
Interviewer: What happened to the company at that point?
Well, what I thought was going to happen was, of course it‟s kind of the last thing on
your mind, essentially I‟d taken over the company for a couple hours, or whatever. 43:06
39
�All of this happened a lot—you know I talked about it in twenty minutes, but it was a
number of hours over the course of this thing. One of the other company commanders
had been—the B company commander was an S1 and when he heard that all this was
going on and that Bouyev had been killed, he grabbed his rucksack and came out and got
on a helicopter and he came out, and he had already served four or five months as
company commander, and he came out and served for two months for the rest of the time
in Cambodia. I remember telling one of the guys that was there, Lieutenant Smith, after
it was all over I said, “This is—you‟ll never see another day like this. This is the worst
day you‟ll ever see”. 44:10 When the company got to Cambodia, that April 26th would
have been a good day compared to what happened to them in Cambodia. They just got
decimated in Cambodia. Three days after that action, Charlie Company was back on the
firebase, my former company, Alpha Company, got into a similar heavy, ugly contest ,
probably with the same group of people, and they had a Lieutenant killed and a buck
sergeant killed. Typically when a company got beat up like that you come to the firebase
just to decompress a little bit, so we were kind of in the middle of decompressing when
Alpha Company got beat up. 45:03 So, they couldn‟t leave them out in the field, so
they brought Alpha Company in, but they told me that, “Well, you‟re going to go back to
Alpha Company and be the executive officer”, because they were about ready to make
that switch and then Lou Favoussa got killed, so then I became the senior Lieutenant, so
they sent me back to Alpha Company.
Interviewer: Is Captain Keen still there?
Captain Keen had derosed about the middle of March, and he was, actually, the S4 at that
time, so he was making sure everything was—the battalion was supplied and everything.
40
�He was a career officer too, Patrick Keen, and retired as a full Colonel. The guy that took
over the company after Bouyev killed, Dana Dillon, he was a career officer too, and also
retired as a full Colonel. 46:01
Interviewer: So, who did you have then as a captain in Alpha Company when you
got there?
Captain Bowen had taken over from Captain Keen and I was his executive officer. The
job of a XO, there‟s really one job, and that‟s to go out and take over the company if
something happens to the company commander, that‟s really it. You also have to sign for
the property book, all of the weapons, all of the typewriters, all of the starlight scopes, all
of that minutia called TA50, all of the—in the stateside the company commander signs
for it, but in a combat environment, or at least in the Cav, in that environment the XO
will sign for it. 47:00 I would go out to the field every day, if the company was on the
firebase, I‟d go out there every day and come back and sleep at Quan Loi, the brigade
headquarters, where our company was, and then the next day go back out. It was
administrative, the first sergeant really ran the rear and if you had a good first sergeant,
you know, you just let him do his job and we had an excellent first sergeant, and there
was no need for me to look over his shoulder. It‟s—I wouldn‟t necessarily say it‟s a
reward for good service, or what have you, because you need slots filled, but you can be a
crummy XO and it would have no effect on your—if you‟ve got a good first sergeant you
could be a crummy XO, but if you‟re a crummy XO and you got a crappy first sergeant
then the guys in the field didn‟t get what they needed. 48:08 that was really my job, to
run interference if the top ever had any issues and he never really did because, you know,
most people defer to first sergeants anyway. A good lieutenant will defer to a first
41
�sergeant until he finds out if the top is good or bad. If he‟s bad then he‟s got to get
involved, but that‟s kind of what I did. We went to Cambodia and even though I went
into Cambodia, essentially, every three days as the company was being resupplied.
Interviewer: Did the brigade headquarters go to Cambodia, or did they stay back?
They stayed at Quan Loi. 49:01 The battalion, of course the battalion had a huge
presence at Quan Loi, but they had a tactical operation center at the firebase in
Cambodia, that‟s where the Colonel would be.
Interviewer: Now, would you go out to the firebase?
Out to the firebase and then again, similar to what it was the previous October you know,
wait until the log bird, the resupply bird would show up, and then I‟d jump on there with
any—you know, the mail was the first thing to go out and then any business I had with
the company commander. I‟d get out there and eat lunch with him and when the last bird
was done for the day, you know, I‟d get back on and go back to whatever firebase we
were at.
Interviewer: Now, if they’re actively campaigning, did you get shot at when you few
back and forth? Was it a dangerous thing to do?
I‟m not aware that we ever got shot at, but you only know if they hit your helicopter, I
guess, or if the door gunner sees the tracers or what have you. 50:13 I am, I can‟t say a
hundred percent sure, because I don‟t know, but I never recall being shot at, I was
fortunate that I was never called into what they call a “hot LZ”. When you‟re doing your
combat assaults you‟re going in and the enemy is there and they‟re engaging you, which
never happened to me. It happened to guys after and it happened to guys before, but it
42
�never happened on any combat assaults that I made, that I‟m aware of, at least we never
had a “hot LZ”, whether they shot at us when we were going or coming, I have no idea.
Interviewer: Now, because of your position, did you now have a little bit more of an
understanding of what was going on in the larger operation etc.? 51:00 As you saw
it, at the time, what was the purpose of going into Cambodia?
Well, I was probably like a lot of people, again my father was a career Air Force, but, you
know, I believed all that palaver about the domino theory, if we don‟t stop them over
there, then we‟ll be fighting them in Kalamazoo.
Interviewer: On a military level, I guess, is what I was asking. Why were you going
in at that point, what were you trying to accomplish?
Well again, I think it‟s along those lines. You‟re just trying to stop the production of
communism; you‟re trying to help a South Vietnamese country that is trying to be taken
over by North Vietnam.
Interviewer: Did you have a sense of what the actual military objective of the
operation was, or were you going to Cambodia because they sent you?
In Cambodia, oh, oh, oh, I‟m sorry. 52:01 No, the—well, we heard the President say
what he said and, of course, we were operating close enough to Cambodia that I don‟t
recall that it ever happened again to any engagements that I was in, you know, people that
I was serving with, it happened to them earlier where they‟d run across the border and
you couldn‟t chase them. Sometimes you did, and sometimes you didn‟t, and a lot of
guys would say that we were actually in Cambodia, but whether you were or you weren‟t
you don‟t know. When we got the briefing, again this was before—this was after April
26th, but before I got sent back to Alpha Company. The briefing in Nha Trang was, you
43
�know, “Were going into Cambodia on the 1st of May, and we‟re going to go in no more
than thirty Kilometers or thirty miles”, or whatever it was. 53:00 “We‟re going to be
there sixty days and we‟re going to try to find as much supply stuff as we can find,
disrupt what they‟re doing and the only thing we know for sure is we can get you on the
ground, but we don‟t know if we can get you out”. So, Charlie Company was actually
supposed to be the first company to go in, and then of course Phil Favoussa got killed and
then I went to Alpha Company, so that part didn‟t affect me. They were originally going
to load ARVN‟s, South Vietnamese Army soldiers at Quan Loi and bring them out to
Frances, unload them, put Americans on and then go in. I guess somebody decided that
if we do that, as soon as we let them off the helicopters they‟re going to run away and
we‟re never going to get them into Cambodia. 54:00 So, they decided they‟re on there,
and they took the ARVN‟s in first. It was, you know, strike the sanctuaries and I—our
battalion had a lot of people killed in Cambodia. We were probably the heaviest hit
battalion of all the—certainly of all the Cav that went into Cambodia and maybe of all of
the soldiers, I think there were a hundred and fifty five, or something, killed in
Cambodia. Charlie Company alone had sixteen or seventeen in just forty five days of
combat.
Interviewer: Now, were you with, in that position, through the whole Cambodian
phase, or did you leave before that?
No, I was there the whole time, I again, my job as XO was to do the administrative thing,
and it was just brutal. 55:10 I mean, there was serious, as serious as the NVA were in
South Vietnam and in the old April 26th and what have you. They were a heck of a lot
more serious, it seems like in Cambodia because, like I say, a mortar battalion, and they
44
�were beaten up pretty bad, the enemy soldiers. You know now, forty years after the fact,
I‟ve done a lot of reading, and I‟ve done a lot of research, and the more you read the
more disenchanted you get, you know, and I forget the name of the book now, I just read
it about a year ago, but—it was [Mc]George Bundy, I think, it was a book about him as
National Security Advisor. 56:06 The premise of that book was essentially that
Kennedy was about to withdraw all the advisors at the time he was assassinated and had
happened, you know, we most likely never would have been in there. It‟s a—I know a
lot of people that—you know in a very small circle and then you expand it a little that
you know of that were killed there, and it just leaves me, and it still does, with a sense of
sadness, you know that—not only for the American side, but for the North Vietnamese
side, you know. They had well over a million, I guess, by all accounts, and somewhere in
there maybe there was the cure for Cancer or something, you know. 57:02 We can‟t be
so foolish as to think it can just be an American that can come up with a cure.
Interviewer: Now, was the XO assignment the last one you had while you were in
Vietnam?
No, I served for about two weeks as the acting company commander. George Loveless
went on R&R, Captain Bowen left about the first of July, right after Cambodia, and
George Loveless came in and I thought, “Well, this is good, he seems like a pretty good
guy”, George Loveless, and then, I was short, I was down to about, well, certainly within
my last month and I went out to the firebase one day and he said, “Well, the next time
you log, bring all of your stuff with you”, and I said, “What do you mean?” He said,
“Well, I‟m going on R&R”, and I said, “Huh?” 58:00 So, he went on R&R and I was
back out in the field for two weeks and we had, in those two weeks we had three different
45
�fire fights and we didn‟t have anybody wounded, fortunately, but the interesting thing,
the Colonel that I had so much trouble with when I was the base defense guy at Quan
Loi, he was now our battalion commander. So, I thought, “This is lovely, how can that
little cloud, the pig pen cloud, keep following me around?” But, I remember doing an
aerial recon with Colonel LaBrose and he said, “You‟re going to go here and you‟re
going to go here and do this, and when you‟re all said and done I want you right here”.
And he drew this little place on my map. So, George went on R&R and I was out in the
field and we did our thing. 59:07 The day we‟re supposed to be extracted, I was right
where he drew on my map. He calls me up and he said, “I‟m circling that place, pop
smoke or something”, so, I said, “Well we‟re right where you drew on my map”, and we
don‟t hear any helicopter. This went back and forth, back and forth, “You‟ve got to go to
this location”, and I said, “I‟m at that location”, “You got to go to this location”, “I‟m at
that location”, and finally he said, “Well, just cut an LZ where you are and then I want
you to report to me when you get back”, and I said, “Ok”, so we made out like a one ship
LZ and got out one helicopter at a time. I was the last one on the helicopter and I went in
and reported to the TOC and I expected him to just rip my head off, you know. 00:07
He said, “I want you to know Lieutenant Anderson, that was the best extraction of a rifle
company from the field that I have ever seen in my life. It was just marvelous, it was just
wonderful”, and blah, blah, blah, and I said, “Ok, yes sir”, “Carry on”. I left and George
came back in and that was it.
Interviewer: So, you never had any idea what had gone on, you figured out that he
had the wrong location?
46
�He drew it wrong on my map, but I wasn‟t—and I‟m not going to say anything other than
saying I‟m at that location, but what more can I do? He can‟t say, “go to that location on
the map that I drew. “I‟m at that location”. “Shoot artillery, do whatever you want to
do”. I had that happen one time too with captain Keen. He professed that I was at the
wrong place on the map, and this went back and forth, back and forth, and finally he said,
“Ok, I‟ll shoot a marking round”. 1:06 They shoot white phosphorous with a grid
coordinate 400 meters over your head, and that thing went off right over the top of my
head, and he said, “Did you get an azimuth to it?” I said, “Well, my compass doesn‟t
work when it‟s pointed straight up”. “Er, we‟ll come to you”, and it took them four hours
to get to where we were, and he was not happy. But, I learned that in jungle school. We
got lost, horribly lost, in the map reading course.
Interviewer: That was, if you follow the questions, and the first one actually was,
what did jungle school consist of and how useful was it?
For me, it was useful only from the standpoint, you knew, kind of, what the jungle was
like. It was a bunch of—and there were classrooms, and there were a couple of field
exercises, one of which was the night compass course, and there were four of us dumb
lieutenants. 2:13 I always maintained that I didn‟t A, have the compass, or B, have the
map, I was just one of the guys. We got horribly lost and we were out all night with
mosquitoes the size of Humming Birds and one guy lost his watch and we were all—it
was like the Four Stooges, you know, and finally the next day it seems like they had a
helicopter flying over us and yelling, “Where are you dummies?” Finally they found us
and we found them, but it was useful to me, from my standpoint, more A, the weather
was beastly hot, so again you got somewhat acclimated to the weather, although Vietnam
47
�was hotter, and seeing what the terrain was like. 3:14 Other than that is was—and the
other thing that was great, they counted it for your time, so from the time you reported to
the time the school was over, until the time that you got to Vietnam, all of that time
counted, so actually, I was somewhat lucky, I was only there not quite eleven months, in
country.
Interviewer: We were kind of talking about jungle school and you were pointing
out that because that time counted overseas, that it shortened, a little bit, the time
you had to be in Vietnam. The next question at that point was how much contact
you had with the Vietnamese themselves.
Actually, very little, I mean we had Hoi Chans, which were enemy soldiers that had gone
into the Chieu Hoi program, you know they raise there hand, Chieu Hoi, that means don‟t
shoot me basically, and they surrender. 4:10 Then they go through an indoctrination
program and once they graduate, or what have you, or deem to no longer be communists,
and then they become what they call Hoi Chans and then some of them get sent back to
companies, Kit Carson Scouts, or what have you, so early on with Alpha Company we
had one, I think, a Kit Carson Scout, and one of them got wounded in that big fire fight in
November and then we got another one. Some of them were just enlisted guys and some
had been officers and in either the Vietcong infrastructure or actual NVA folks. Then we
had people that would come in the rear, when I was XO, you know, hooch cleaners, or
what have you. 5:12 But, out in the field, while I was out in the field, anybody we ran
across usually was trying to elude bullets or shooting at us first.
Interviewer: You weren’t really in a populated area?
48
�I wasn‟t, but before I got there the company was operating up around Bao Loc and there
were a lot of Montagnard and indigenous folks up there, so they had a lot of interaction,
but that was prior to me getting there.
Interviewer: What opinion did you have, if any, of the Kit Carson Scouts or the
Vietnamese soldiers that were assigned to you?
You know they—I guess I didn‟t have much opinion. It wasn‟t a trust factor, it just
seemed like, you know, he could look at a trail and I could look at the same trail and
again, if it was like this concrete, and he would say something like, ”Boo Coo, NVA”,
you know, or something. 6:18 Boo Coo [corruption of the French "beaucoup"] was a
big word for them and if you were Dinky Dow, you know, you were nuts, and if you
were Number 1 you were good, and if you were Number 10, you weren‟t good. I
couldn‟t speak Vietnamese.
Interviewer: Did they seem to be reasonably good soldiers?
Well again, they're not part of the army. I heard so many bad things about that, that I
wouldn‟t want to characterize except say, „Well, they were there with us and if we saw
some muddy foot prints, you know, “How many went by?” “Boo Coo, Boo Coo”, and
that told you inessentially, a bunch of them. 7:09 It could have been one or it could
have been fifty, so I guess the—and sometimes you would capture documents. If it was a
Vietnamese as opposed to a Montagnard, then they can generally read the documents and
glean some information from it, but I wouldn‟t day they were bad and I wouldn‟t say they
were good, they were just there.
Interviewer: From, particularly the time you spent out in the field in one capacity,
are there other kind of individual incidence or things that kind of stick out in your
49
�mind that you haven’t brought into the story yet, or did you kind of hit the main
events?
I think we touched on the main things. You know, it wasn‟t always ugly. 8:06 One time
we came back from mission, came into the firebase and our first sergeant had been a
major in Korea and he‟d been caught up in a reduction of force and he was our top
sergeant and he use to have steaks for us when we came back. Where he got those I have
no idea. Captain Keen told me, “You‟re going to be in charge of the potatoes. “What do
I know about cooking potatoes?” I remembered when I was a kid, my mother on
occasion, use to boil potatoes in water, so I got a, probably a 155 canister, you know a big
metal canister from the artillery guys and cleaned it out, so there wasn‟t any gun powder
residue or what have you in it. 9:07 I filled it halfway through with water, threw the
potatoes in there and boiled the potatoes, and it worked, and I didn‟t get yelled at my
Captain Keen, so it was just an off thing.
Interviewer: How would you characterize morale in the units you were with when
you were, particularly, in the field?
I would say the morale in Alpha Company was real good through all the platoons.
Morale is a function, I think of a couple different things. One, if you got a good company
commander, and you‟ve got a good platoon leader, and you‟ve got good squad leaders,
and platoon sergeants, then I think you‟re going to have good morale. 10:08 If any of
those are out of whack the morale‟s going to be crappy, I think. Initially, when I got to
Charlie Company, because I already had a preconceived notion of Captain Bouyev, and I
had to do my best to only let that guard down and the only person I ever let that down
with was Phil. We were very careful about that because if the men saw that the
50
�Lieutenants didn‟t have any respect for the company commander, then that could not be
so good either. 11:06 There was one other, kind of in retrospect, humorous incident.
We were on Firebase Compton and I had bad bowel issues that day and Captain Bouyev
wanted our platoon to go out on a recon, and this firebase was in the middle of a big—at
the end of an old airfield in the middle of a rubber plantation, and you see for 600 meters
in almost every direction. So, I thought this would be a good opportunity, A, because I
felt lousy, to let one of my squad leaders take the platoon out on a—they could read
maps, so it wasn‟t that, and give them some training. 12:09 You never know when the
film is going to stop and the lieutenant's dead and the platoon sergeant‟s dead, and
Sergeant McGregor, you‟re now in charge of this platoon. I got no static from the guys
that were going to do that, and if it had I probably would have figured out something else.
But they said, “Sure, that‟s”. You know, we weren‟t necessarily concerned about the
area, or anything like that, so they started going out and they were calling in situation
reports and I was monitoring it, and just trying to get my bowels under control. The next
thing I hear on the radio is, “3-6 where are you?” Captain
Bouyev was calling, and I said, “Well, I‟m in bunker 15”, or whatever, and he said, “You
wait right there”. 13:05 So, he shows up about two minutes later and he‟s just chewing
me up one side and down the other, “I sent you out to do this patrol”, and blah, blah, blah.
I was trying to keep from throwing up and doing everything, and I said, “Well, here‟s
what I‟m trying to do”, and he said, “I don‟t care what you‟re trying to do, you‟re
supposed to lead that platoon, you get out there and lead that platoon. When I tell you to
do something you‟re supposed to do it”, and I said, “Ok”. I grabbed the radio and I threw
it up on my back, I threw two bandoliers of ammo over my—and I started walking. Pat
51
�Hansen comes running and says, “Where you going?‟ I said, “I‟m going out there”, and
he said, “You‟re going out there by yourself?” And I said, “Yeah, I‟m going to go”, so I
radioed the guys and I said, “Set up and butt up security”. I could darn near see them,
you know. “You can‟t go out there by yourself”, and I said, “Are you coming with me?”
He said, “Well, yeah”, “So, get your stuff because I‟m leaving”. 14:03 We walked out
through the gate and we walked right down the airfield and we turned west and walked
500 meters and just like two guys on a stroll in the woods. Probably if there had been
any VC, or anybody, around they would have looked at that and thought, “this has got to
be a trap, that can‟t be two guys dumb enough to be walking out here all by themselves”.
So, we walked out and sat down and I radioed back and said, “Ok, I‟ve joined the
platoon”, and he said, “Let me know how the rest of that patrol goes”, and I said, “Ok”,
and we sat right there for the rest of the day, to hell with him, you know. So, I tried to do
some training and it didn‟t work out.
Interviewer: You mentioned other people going off on R&R and that kind of thing,
did you get a break in anyway?
I did—my father, by now his last duty station was Clark Air Base in the Philippines and I
took my R&R in the Philippines. 15:01 He actually—his job was—he was a lieutenant
colonel then, and he was in charge of scheduling all the planes into and out of Clark. He
flew over on the R&R, the Air Force R&R plane, and I got on the plane along with seven
or eight other people that were going to Manila, which was the R&R center. They landed
at whatever the Manila airfield is and those guys got off and I stayed on the plane and we
went to Clark airbase and was reunited with my mother and my sister, so I did my R&R,
and everybody that went to the Philippines went to Manila, and I went to Clark Air Base.
52
�16:02 We played golf a couple of times at the airbase thing and we went down to Subic
Bay and then it was over. Of course that R&R flight was originating from Clark, you
know, so he took me down and I got on the plane and he said, “Obviously, stay on the
plane until you get back to Tan Son Nhut, or Bien Hoa” , or wherever it was going, and I
said, “Ok”.
Interviewer: When you r tour in Vietnam came to an end, how much time did you
have on your enlistment at that point?
I left Vietnam about the middle of September and I was supposed to go to the twenty
eighth of March the following year. There was a little snafu with my orders. I was being
assigned to Fort Knox and the report date was the thirty first of September, and I missed
that part. 17:08 I mailed it to my father, because I got that early on in July or the first of
August. I mailed him a copy and he mailed me back and said “There‟s no such date as
the 31st of July”, which he caught on right away, and I thought,”Yeah”, so I went down to
the personnel office at battalion headquarters and said, “They got the wrong date here”
and they said, “Oh”, and then they changed it to the 31st of October. So, I went back to,
went home, and went to Kalamazoo, my grandparents were living in Kalamazoo and
stayed there for forty-five days, or whatever it was. 18:07 I bought a car and drove
down to Fort Knox and reported in and they sent me to the reception station. First of all I
didn‟t want to—I felt like a fish out of water anyway, an infantryman in an Armor
School. Then they—to my way of thinking, they had the audacity to send me to the
reception station, you know. I was hoping that I would go to a basic training unit, or
something that—you know, I‟d survived, I‟d learned a few things, and maybe I can teach
somebody one thing that they will remember that will save them. Well, you‟re not going
53
�to teach anybody anything at the reception station. I reported in to the Lieutenant
Colonel that was the commanding officer at the time, Lieutenant Colonel Pew. 19:01
And I had on, you know, my medals, my CIB, and what have you, and I was in my green
uniform, but I didn‟t have the Armor School tag, on my—or insignia on my uniform. Of
course, I‟m standing at attention and he‟s looking me up and down and I forget what he
was, he was a Signal Corps Officer or something like that. He starts busting my chops
about—I‟m essentially out of uniform and he said, “Weren‟t you in the Cav or
something?” No, he probably asked me and I didn‟t have the Cav patch on my uniform
either. He said, and this was probably a Friday, he said, “When you get back here
Monday, you better have the Armor School thing on your shoulder, you better have your
Cav patch on, and you better be ready to go to work”. 20:09 I saluted him, went out and
got in my car and thought, “Jeepers, now what?” So I drove back home to Kalamazoo,
and I‟d gotten a boony hat that the 90th replacement-- when I was coming home, and it
had a big yellow Cav patch on the top of it, and I asked my grandmother, I‟d stopped at
the PX and gotten my Armor School things, “Can you rip this off my boony hat and sew
it on my dress green uniform?, and she said, “Of course”, so she sewed my Cav patch on
and then my other and I got back there Monday morning and showed up in the proper
uniform. 21:03 They made me a training and operations officer, or something. You
know, they had so many 1st lieutenants running around. There was a captain running the
section and a couple of sergeants and a friend of mine from OCS was also stationed there,
and I was living in his—and sleeping on his couch, actually in the BOQ. I‟d signed in to
the BOQ, but I was staying with Mike, and Mike kept asking me, he said, “Are you going
back to school when you get out, are you going back to school when you get out?” I said,
54
�“Well, yeah”. He says, “Well, you‟re not going to stay in the army?” I said, “No, there‟s
too many guys like LaBrose and Pew”. And he said, “Well apply for an early out, you
know, and then you can start in January”, “Oh, ok”, so I forget who I talked to about that,
and I filled out all the paper work and sent it in. 22:08 Of course, the army—“Hey, no
problem”.
Interviewer: Were they downsizing a little at this point?
Yes, so that came through and then once they knew I was going to be getting out at the
end of December, and there again, I reported on the 31st of October, so by all of this—it‟s
the middle of November, so they send me down to Headquarter Company and I was the
XO counting paper clips, or something, for the last two weeks I was in the service.
Interviewer: Now, had they made any effort to encourage you to re-enlist?
I had—when I was in—as a training officer, after I graduated from OCS I got this letter
from the Department of the Army. 23:01 Some full Colonel in the Department of the
Army, and he said all these lovely things, you know, “I‟ve been talking to your battalion
commander about you, and you‟re the kind of guy the army needs and we‟ll send you”,
you know, and blah, blah, blah. I was only four months commissioned and it sounded
really great to me. So, all I had to do was say, “Yes, I‟ll go and be interviewed by the
Brigade Commander”, and, of course, you‟re not going to say, “No”. So, I went up and
saw-- he was busy that day, so I saw his XO, I guess, but---you know, we talked, just like
we‟re talking now and I only said, “Yes sir‟, about a thousand times. I hadn‟t really
given it much thought, but—until it came time to get out, and then I thought,”You know,
eleven months”, and I still didn‟t have a college education, “this might not work”, so I
55
�decided to get out. 24:10 But yeah, they were kind of after me. You had to go
indefinite and maybe you‟d get a regular army commission or something.
Interviewer: Now, once you do get out, did you go right back to school?
I did, yeah; my official last day in the service on active duty was December 31st, so they
gave me, like two days to travel from Fort Knox to Kalamazoo, so I signed out, went
home, to my grandparents‟ house. My parents were still in the Philippines, and then
school started either that next week, or the week after, the first full week, probably, in
January.
Interviewer: Did you go back to Michigan State at that point?
Yes
Interviewer: So, they had kicked you out and they let you back in now?
Yes, I‟d been out and I‟d—of course to get the early out you have to be reaccepted
somewhere. 25:03 So, I‟d already done that and they had reaccepted me and I had a
little different outlook on studying. Prior, I was putting in the time, but I wasn‟t getting
anything out of it, or at least I wasn‟t able to translate what I did or didn‟t get out of it
into exams. I never flunked anything, but two consecutive terms of straight one points,
you know, and then they had what they call a step scale at that time and I was below the
step scale for two consecutive terms and as a transfer student they exhaust me. But, I was
reaccepted unconditionally, they had changed the step scale and it was something else.
26:05 Of course, I had a one point average that I had to—and that took, probably, a
couple semesters to get that above a two point, because you got to get A‟s to bring a one
to a two point five, but you know, you eventually got it worked up and then I—it was just
easier, I guess, then, I was older, I was in the dorm, and there was another guy who
56
�became a very good friend of mine and he was a sergeant, he had been a sergeant in
Vietnam with the 9th Infantry. I was a lot easier, and I was a heck of a lot more mature.
Interviewer: Did you feel at all out of place as a veteran, at this point, on campus,
or being older than most of the students? 27:02
No, not really, I mean our hair was still shorter and we all wore field jackets in the
winter, not all, but the three or four of us that were veterans on the floor, and no, not
really. I remember there was some rioting and I want to say in 1971 or 1972, or
protesting. I forget what they were—they were protesting, you know, and all the long
haired “Hippies‟ were down there and the state police were there. We went down to
watch and they arrested a couple guys and threw them in the back seat of the state
cruisers. My roommate and I—he was in the Air Force reserves, and we were saying,
“Roll up those windows, make them sweat to death”, and the cops were all laughing at
us. 28:06 “We can‟t do that”, and we said, “Oh yes you can, those pot lickers”. I forget
what they were protesting, but it was a big deal and Grand River Avenue was all jammed
full of pedestrians and cars were going real slow. The cops were beating on the cars to
get them to speed up, but I can‟t remember what it was all about now. We just went to
school and studied.
Interviewer: Did people generally know that you were a veteran and had been in
Vietnam?
Probably, because my uniform was my—my fatigue shirts, basically, and cut off fatigue
pants, that‟s what I wore to school.
Interviewer: But you didn’t get particular flak, or anything, from anybody because
of that?
57
�No
Interviewer: What did you take your degree in?
My undergraduate was in general business with a major, or what have you, in
management. 29:13 Then my masters was in personnel administration.
Interviewer: What kind of a career did you go into?
Well, I graduated with my masters, MBA, in 1976 and 1976 wasn‟t a great time for the
country either, as far as getting jobs, and it even got to a point where—I was married by
then, I‟d been married for a couple of years, and I thought, “Maybe I‟ll try to do what my
father did”. I‟d stayed in the IRR, the Individual Ready Reserve, and I didn‟t go to
meetings or anything like that, it was just a paperwork shuffle that every three years, “Do
you want to stay in? And if the balloon goes up, maybe we‟ll call you and maybe we
won‟t”. 30:07 I forget who I wrote, some General somewhere and I said, “I‟m ready to
go back onto active duty, I‟ve got my MBA and I‟ve got all this stuff. I was regular army
at one time”, but I never heard from him, of course, but then finally I got a job with
Continental Can Company. I spent a year out in New Jersey and then they transferred me
back here to Grand Rapids when we built the plant out here. I stayed there and then got
reduced out of there and then I went to a small company over on 32nd Street call Aloff‟s
and they‟re out of business now, and from there to another company called Batts
Incorporated, they use to make hangers out in Zeeland, and they‟re defunct now. 31:02
So, all of the places I went to work for became defunct , and then to the packaging
company out in Holland, Bradford Company.
Interviewer: Do they still exist?
58
�They do, and I got downsized out of there. I had a lot of anger issues until I got into
therapy I really didn‟t know why. I always seemed to have, which isn‟t a good thing,
trouble with bosses that I always felt were kind of incompetent. It didn‟t take a lot for the
therapist to say, “Well, you‟re dragging around all of your lieutenant stuff, and you‟re
probably viewing guys, who may or may not be incompetent, you‟re looking at them as
like the LaBroses or the Bouyevs, or the Pews, or what have you, of the world”. 32:23
“Oh”, and of course by then I wasn‟t working any place, so it really makes a---I wish I‟d
known that thirty five years ago. Many of us who have been diagnoses with PTSD, we‟re
able to function in—and, you know, we just stuff it, and then sometimes, at an
inopportune time it pops out and then you‟ve got a lot of fence building to take care of
and sometimes you‟re not able to mend the fences and then you‟re left with, “I guess it‟s
time to move on”. 33:09 But, I‟ve been married for thirty eight years now, almost, and I
have one child, so I didn‟t—I never did drugs, or never was a drunk or somewhat the
stereotype, you know, you‟re a womanizer, I never did that, or you‟re a doper, I never did
any of that, never smoked, ever. Another part of the characteristic is you‟re alcoholic,
and I was that, you know, I was always at work, and then some of that, do this, this and
this, gets imprinted on your children, or child in my case, and that causes heartbreak, and
drama sometimes, so I wasn‟t immune to any of that. 34:11
Interviewer: Do you see positive aspects in ways which your time in the service
affected you that one way or another turned out to be positive?
Oh yeah, I do think so, I mean it—we just learned something new a couple, or I did
anyway, a few weeks ago in our group. I go once a week to group, “post traumatic
growth”. Apparently that term and concept has been around for a while, but just got
59
�introduced to us a couple of weeks ago, but I mean, I think all of the training and all of
the exposure made me a good supervisor. It didn‟t necessarily make me a great employee
from this level down, but from this level down through my subordinates it helped
immensely. 35:11 And I was tough on suborinates too and I run into five or six of them
since I‟ve gotten into this therapy business, and I‟ve apologized to them and say, “I was
tough, I was a bastard sometimes, you know”, and universally they have said, “You
weren‟t as bad as you think you were, and we‟re always harder on ourselves anyway,
usually, but you weren‟t as hard as you think you were and once we came to realize
you‟d spent some time in that situation, we kind of understood a little better” 36:02
Almost universally they all turned around and said, “You never—sometimes maybe you
were over the top with your criticism, or how to do this or that, but you never did it just to
be—to just prove that you were the boss, you were always trying to make us better”, and
a lot of those folks have been successful too, but—so I wouldn‟t trade any of it. I‟ve had
the occasion to go Walter Reed a number of times and see our, see our kids that are
fighting the war now, and that‟s brutal stuff, to go there and see that. 37:00 It makes
me; on a number of levels it makes me angry that we‟re putting them through that. It
makes me, sometimes, feel like I‟m not deserving of the benefits that I‟m getting from
the government, because not only are they going to have PTSD, but they‟re going to be
going through life, in many case, you know, with no arms and one limb, one eye and
what have you. Of course my therapist can always turn that around and say, “Well,
they‟re getting their compensation too and yours is not obviously visible to everybody
because yours is a different kind of a what have you”, and you know, I resisted this for
years too, this business because I knew some people that I thought were fakers and
60
�charlatans and what have you. 38:00 I didn‟t want to be involved in that, and finally
one day it just dawned on me that, “You need to A, do this for yourself, and get some
help, but you can‟t fix anything, or help anybody else if you‟re just going to be on the
sidelines looking in”. The government doesn‟t care if Bob Anderson shows up and raises
his hand for benefits, at all, the government could care less because there‟s a thousand
other people right behind me. So, I did this to, I always say this kind of jokingly, I
started this because I was tired of being a jackass all the time, and I see some changes.
I‟ve been doing this for almost six years now, the therapy part, but it does allow me to
help other veterans because I think I‟m conversant enough in it that I can help other
veterans, and I‟ve been fairly successful with the ones that I‟ve helped. 39:02
Interviewer: So, are you involved with any kind of local support organizations in
the area?
Well, we have, maybe it‟s showing up here. We have a local chapter of the 1st Cav, it‟s
been renamed to honor our President Emeritus who just passed away, James Mason, he
was an armor officer, but he was also, a career officer, and he fought in Korea and was
wounded badly as a tank platoon leader and he was also in WWII. So, we get together
once a month, in fact we have a meeting tonight. We do some social service out at the
Grand Rapids Home for Veterans. Every month that has a fifth Sunday in it we go out
there and we run Bingo, so that‟s kind of a way to give back. If we see veterans on the
street, most of us, we will thank them for their service. 40:09 In a lot of ways they have
it a lot rougher than we do because they keep going back, and back, and back, and back,
It‟s just brutal from this chair, just brutal.
Interviewer: Well, you’re certainly in a position to know something about that.
61
�Like I say, it‟s been, because I‟ve been through the benefit tunnel, I guess if you will, and
sometimes the government is not willing to help people get their benefits. It‟s not that
they‟re unwilling; it‟s just that they‟re not willing to, if that makes any sense. I mean,
they‟re not hunting them down and telling them what the benefits are, you have to kind of
stumble into it, and I‟ve been lucky enough to understand, I guess, how the system
works, so I‟ve been able to help guys from my own company, my Alpha company group.
41:07 We pushed a couple of guys in the group, our chapter group, to seek benefits, and
some of them have.
Interviewer: Well, as a whole, you seem to have come out of things pretty well in
the end.
Well, I wouldn‟t change the whole military experience at all. The only thing, if I was
able to change, with a magic wand, is to have understood what PTSD was thirty five
years ago, and then I might have had a—worked at one place for thirty five years, I don‟t
know.
Interviewer: Well, thank you very much for coming in and talking to me today, I
appreciate your story.
62
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
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1914-
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
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Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
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RHC-27
Language
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eng
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
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Title
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Anderson, Robert (Interview transcript and video), 2005
Creator
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Anderson, Robert
Description
An account of the resource
Robert Douglas Anderson, born near Grand Rapids, Michigan. in 1926, was drafted into the Army in 1945 after the war had already ended. After training at Fort Sheridan, Illinois, and Fort Meade, Maryland, he was sent to Yokohama, Japan to identify and sort war materiel.
Contributor
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Andrews, Greg (Interviewer)
Otten, Andrew (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
United States. Army
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eng
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
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Text
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
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2005-05-26
Identifier
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AndersonR1081V
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a>
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application/pdf
video/mp4
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4da245a5729832a667d0330b8c2e25a1.mp4
26983f37c058a62acae795cfa6a361c9
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ee7a5230e33e418ee8603120939566a3.pdf
0bfd435907af23ee457369d97f9b545f
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Oral History Interview
Veteran: Sarah Anderson
Interview Length: (1:13.28)
Interviewed by: Dr. James Smither
Transcribed by: Chloe Dingens
Interviewer: This interview is a joint production between the Grand Valley State Veterans
History Project and the WKTV Voices. We are talking today with Sarah Anderson, a
Marine Corps veteran who lives in Grand Haven, Michigan and the interviewer is James
Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project. Okay so Sarah,
begin with some background on yourself and to start with where and when were you born?
I was born in Muskegon, Michigan I… in 19... I’m sorry I’m a little nervous now.
Interviewer: That’s okay!
Alright I was born in Muskegon, Michigan I was born and raised in, on the west side of
Michigan 1990.
Interviewer: Okay, alright and what was your family doing for a living when you were
growing up?
My dad is a mechanical engineer, my mom was a stay-at-home mom. I have an older brother, a
little sister, and a little brother so we kind of all just kind of grew up, I grew up in the same house
I did for like 18 years of my life and stayed on the same spot.
Interviewer: Okay, alright and then when did you graduate from high school?
I graduated from Freedom Baptist High School in 2009 and that school’s in Hudsonville, it no
longer exists right now but…
Interviewer: Okay, alright so you went there and then what did you do after high school?
I immediately joined the Marine Corps.
�(1.44)
Interviewer: Alright, now what motivated that?
So, in high school I was an athlete and I was not a bad student, but I did not like sitting around
and just, I needed to expend energy somehow and so I, my outlet was sports. And the thought of
going to college immediately for me, I was a restless spirit so that kind of wasn't really like as
exciting to me as it was for a lot of my peers at the time. My brother joined the Marine Corps in
2007 and when I was a sophomore in high school, I attended his graduation up from boot camp
from Marine Corps Recruiting station like Marine Corps Recruit Depot there we go. Recruit
Depot San Diego and I just saw like the- the transformation in him. He was not a very good
student, and then he just had, was filled with all this pride at would he had accomplished, and the
Marine Corps just seemed like very attractive to me at that time. It was just an outlet of just
doing something, filling a purpose, or a mission, or a duty and I just, I don't know I just wanted
that confidence. I envied it and when it was my time to decide I talked to a recruiter and decided
that that's the challenge I wanted to take on.
(2.56)
Interviewer: Okay now before we continue with the story there was one thing, another
component I wanted to add up, add in there; you were old enough to remember 9/11.
Yes.
Interviewer: And do you remember where you were and what happened that day?
September 11, 2001 I was in fifth grade. Just came in from recess and I remember my teacher
just had this like really sad look on her face and she turned on the radio and she said, “I need you
all to sit down and be quiet.” And a bunch of rowdy kids were like some, we knew something
was serious going on and we just listened. I didn't know what the World Trade Center was, like I
�didn't know anything about New York other than you know Empire State Building and Lady
Liberty, the Statue of Liberty. So, I learned real quick what the World Trade Center was the;
Twin Towers and I didn't know exactly, it was just the radio so I didn't see any picture but they
let us off of school early. All our parents came to pick us up, came home and just saw the news
and I saw the towers fall on TV.
(3.54)
Interviewer: Alright and just kind of awareness of that, I mean does that in any way kind
of shape your later decision to go in the service? Or was your decision really just a personal
one?
I think it shaped my decision for sure, it was a personal one but the momentum of the patriotism
I think that I experienced as a child, like America's one of those unique countries that like it's
very patriotic very proud of where we come from, and I mean our country has its issues but
overall there is a unifying aspect of being an American. And around September 11th timeframe
that even more so, we were all unified in our grief and in our passion to you know stay together
and be strong. So, that impacted me as a child and when I saw my brother graduate from boot
camp I, kind of like reaffirmed me and my personal decision too. It’s like this will be good for
me and you know I really want to see like all different sides of America, and including the
military, and the challenge really attracted me too. Like they, the other branches, the Marine
Corps said, “hey, we’re the hardest one, if you can hack it, you can do it.” And I'm like, I'm
gonna hack it, I can do it. It was just a really fun challenge to take on.
(5.11)
�Interviewer: Alright now when you were talking to the Marine Corps recruiter then, did
you have any opportunity to- to choose types of training to get? Or were they offering you
any particular programs? Or was it just go in and see where we put you?
So, I did get to choose my MOS which is a military occupational specialty like my job in the
military. So, males and females in the Marine Corps they get trained equally, trained the same.
There's- there's different standards sometimes when it comes to PT like run times, but every PT
is the same and every training is the same. There is no difference and so when- when you join the
Marine Corps, you’re a Marine first and then you become your job as well. So, boot camp- boot
camp was entirely like just breaking you down and training you to be a Marine.
Interviewer: Okay well what- what MOS did you choose?
I chose to be a public affairs specialist, at the time it was called combat correspondent public
affairs specialist, now it is strategic communications and mass communicator. Like a lot of my
MOS’ changed a little bit since I've left, I guess, we've combined the combat camera and public
affairs into the same MOS so everyone's cross-training and they're doing some awesome stuff
right now.
(6.27)
Interviewer: Alright so let's go back to boot camp, so where do you go for boot camp?
I went to Parris Island, South Carolina that is the only place females are, well as of now are
permitted to go to boot camp mostly because there aren’t a lot of females who take up that
challenge so. The, financially that's just like the best place to go. It's definitely not a
discriminatory thing I don’t want to say that.
Interviewer: There are only two bases that- that train Marines at all so it's one or the other,
and so they took Parris Island. Okay, now what time of year do you arrive there?
�I arrived in August 2009, so it was just the tail end of the summer and it was hot, and it was I just
remember feeling like I was gonna die. I've never felt anything that hot before, just the swampy
blistering heat, it was awful. And then when I graduated in November it was snowing so, we did
the crucible in the snow. It was the weirdest time of the year to go.
Interviewer: Okay now what sort of reception do you get when you arrive at boot camp?
(7.29)
The reception to boot camp, it is not an easy one. It is the first experience you have with a drill
instructor. You pull up at night, or at least I pulled up at night on a bus. And a drill instructor
comes in, shots at you, tells you what exactly to do, follow exactly- exactly everything they say
to the letter, and you rush out step on some yellow footprints, get yelled at some more, about like
how to enter the hatches, how to get started in boot camp, and then you go from there.
Interviewer: How to enter the hatches?
So, or like how to like what hatches to enter if you will. We, there's a sign in Parris Island above
the doors that say, this really inspirational quote that's not coming to mind right now, I can look
it up but it's like “through these hatches are those who train to be the most… America’s fighting
force…” or something. I’m sorry I totally just slaughtered that.
Interviewer: That’s okay, but a hatch is like a door, right?
So, the Marine Corps uses Navy terms.
Interviewer: Yes.
(8.31)
Because we're a department of the Navy so, yeah through, we use hatches or door, portholes,
windows, deck is the floor. And in bootcamp it's like we have to be taught a new language and
these drill instructors are even more frustrating because they just passed an entire cycle of
�Marines that just graduated boot camp who were, you know ready to be Marines going back to
people who have to be taught, “this is a deck. This is a hatch,” and it was just kind of, I'm sure it
was entertaining for them or infuriating I don't know but.
Interviewer: Okay now when your group, when you come in out of the bus was the bus
load all women or was it a mix of men and women?
The bus load was a mix of men and women.
Interviewer: Okay so that initial thing, they’re just bringing you all in. Then did they
separate you out into different companies with women's training different/ separately from
men or how do they arrange that?
For processing we're kind of mixed because, you know we're just getting all separated. Like the
phone calls home and everything, but then they eventually like separate us males and female,
yeah that's just part of it.
(9.31)
Interviewer: Okay, alright and then sort of what's kind of the sequence of events in boot
camp? What are you doing first, what do you do later?
At the time there's three cycles, now I believe there's four but at the time there's three cycles.
And in cycle number one is just kind of processing, getting your uniforms, getting you’re your
boots learning how to do basic things like make a rack and fold a towel and be comfortable being
around, I was in a squad bay, with 80 women. A squad bay is a big room full of bunk beds. Like
no privacy whatsoever our bathroom doors were sawed off we weren't allowed to have that, even
that kind of privacy. So, we had three round, rounded showerheads to share between 80 women
and we only had like about a minute each to shower all at once. So, we had to figure it out, and
so, it was just kind of getting comfortable. I'd never touched a weapon before, we got issued
�rifles and like what is this? I yeah and I it didn't grow up with guns or weapons or anything. So,
just kind of learning how to do my hair; the Marine Corps is pretty strict hair standards when it
comes to pull your hair back in a bun, no fly always. Learning the language, learning the basic
rules, learning even the basic core values and everything. It’s just kind of what you do in the first
phase; learning how to march like it's not like simple like- like you think marching in the movies,
it's like in sync it's an in-sync motion with your squad and your team so. Second phase is honing
more combat skills and rifle range, so you like learn how to shoot, you learn how to move
together as a team, more drilling obviously you learn how to march even better. And learn, yeah,
learned how to patrol and just kind of basic- basic combat maneuvers.
Interviewer: Do you get hand-to-hand combat stuff too?
We do, we get something we call MCMAP it's Marine Corps Martial Arts Program. It's
affectionately known called McNinja, yeah just basic self-defense technique. Basics on, how to
punch, how to block, how to maneuver and in boot camp you just get the basic level through
your Marine Corps career you can progress in... we have a belt system like a lot of martial arts
programs do but it's tan belt in boot camp and just basic leg sweeps and stuff like that. So…
(11.59)
Interviewer: How to knock down someone who's bigger than you were.
Yes absolutely, and which actually was kind of nice because I was a small eighteen-year-old
female at the time, so it was just nice to know how to do small joint manipulation or basic selfdefenses. It was never intro; I was never introduced to anything combat related. So, that was
second phase and then third phase we continue all of that into a culminating event, we learned
pugil sticks, we continued MCMAP, we should be nearly experts at drill at this point when it
comes, like marching and formations and stuff so we do that competition. We do, you know…
�what else do we do? Well basically it's just honing those skills, more physical training PT and to
accommodating event which we just called The Crucible which is an event where we I believe
we did a 9-mile hike. It was three days of kind of surviving as a team, doing team building
activities and exercises, and combat techniques like crawling under barbed wire, and running up
range, and shooting, and like it just it was just a lot of culminating things that we just learned the
entire time there. The entire 13 weeks really, so it was an exhausting three days and we were
given a limited number of MREs which are like military rations to kind of like, so we could
teach ourselves how to like pace ourselves when it comes to if you have this much food like this
is how you survive off of this much, you don't eat it all at once or you're gonna starve kind of
thing. At the very end we're all beaten, exhausted, dirty, and tired and we're all marching back
together, and we're all like singing and- and chanting cadence and getting motivated because at
the very end we line up. Barely standing because we’re exhausted to be given our Eagle of an
Anchor which signifies you have earned the title of marine.
(14.06)
Interviewer: Okay now go- go back to the beginning of things in this first- first few weeks.
How easy or hard was it for you to adjust to life in the Marine Corps?
Everyone adjust differently and I think basically it depends on personality and how you grew up.
I've seen girls who went to boot camp got screamed at, it didn’t faze them because they've been
screamed at all their lives. Me, I grew up in a very Christian religious Bible Belt of Michigan it's
what kind of the reputation is. So, it was a very conservative area and I was- I was never put
down as for being a female or anything but it was just kind of like a cultural thing that you just
get assumed that you're gonna be a wife and a mom one day, and you don't go and join the
military because that's just not culturally what we do. And not anyone looked down on me I'm
�not trying to bash my- the way I grew up it was, I grew up very well I was very blessed. But it
was it was a very different thing for me, especially in the Christian school I went to that like
women don’t, like ‘what? Why?’ kind of thing. And I, when I got to an area where people from
all different backgrounds and all different walks of life where all in one room getting screamed at
by these women that I thought like where demon possessed at the time. I don't know I was just
an ignorant 18-year-old. I thought it was the hardest thing at the time that I had ever been
through. And mentally I had to adjust and emotionally I had to adjust, and it was just… I didn't
really know what I was getting into. At first it was difficult but then there's just something in you
that clicks, that is like I can do this, like I want this. If you want it bad enough, you're gonna
complete it, you're gonna overcome it and I think that's accredited, I think to some of my drill
instructors too. Not only like beat like discipline in me, but like the confidence as well and at the
time I hated everything about them but you know, I there is one drill instructor in particular that I
modeled my entire leadership style after the next eight years of my life.
(16.25)
Interviewer: Okay, what was it about how she did things that stuck with you?
So, this drill instructor, her name was Sergeant Feight all my drill instructors were sergeants
which is kind of uncommon in the drill field or in boot camp environment. Usually if staff
sergeants or gunnery sergeants like high-ranking but my drill team was all sergeants and
Sergeant Feight she was- she was very like just the way she carried herself. She was our senior
drill instructor so her role on the drill team was to kind of be available, be strict, and be
disciplinarian, but be also available for us. Because you know if something is wrong and we're
too afraid to tell the drill instructors somebody needs to know and like she’s, so she made herself
in her leadership role that was available to us. There was one time like she, I don't know it's just
�the- the confidence she had in herself and the way she carried herself was really inspiring to me.
There was one time a male drill instructor… a male drill instructor insulted one of our recruits on
the rifle range, because we trained at the guys during that week. And our senior drill instructor
Sergeant Feight found out about it and I don't think her intention was to shame him in front of
everyone, but she did it in a way that as a no BS mentality. It was an example to all the girls, all
80 women in my platoon to not take that just because like it doesn't matter what rank, doesn't
matter what status you are, who you are, you like you- you have the confidence, you earn you’re
earning this, you're working on it you don't get to take that, and she stood up for us but also made
herself an example of how to stand up for yourself, and like do not, like don't- don't take that
basically and come to find out the next eight years of my life dealt with that a lot. And it just I
don't know I really appreciated her example and when I became a sergeant, I wanted to treat my
junior Marines in a way that was fair, inspirational, and in a way that could build their
confidence.
Interviewer: Right, now when you and did your brother tell you anything about what to
expect in boot camp?
(18.59)
I don't know if I really want this part on here but me my brother and I don't really get along that
well. So, like we have a relationship if you will, but he didn’t really kind of prepare me very
well.
Interviewer: So basic question, so it wasn't they're gonna do X Y & Z and this is why
they're doing it?
Yeah so, my brother was a relatively new Marine when I enlisted so he was still trying to find his
feet in the Marine Corps.
�Interviewer: Right.
So, I didn't really understand a lot other than they might yell at me, or not might, they will yell at
me. But I didn't realize what exactly was going to happen and so when I enlisted my recruiter
didn't really know much about the roles female Marines play. I just assumed they were gonna be
equally treated which, they were, like they- they same PT schedule standards same training and
everything. But I mean we had a little difference when it comes to standards, like when it comes
to PT fitness test.
Interviewer: Right.
If you will, but he didn't really know much at all, so I had to figure a lot of it out by myself.
(20.15)
Interviewer: Alright so- so okay now were there other women you were training with who
when in the end couldn't take it?
Yes.
Interviewer: Okay what proportion do you think?
I think I graduated with 40.
Interviewer: That was out of 80?
Yeah.
Interviewer: Now where some of those people gonna be recycling and coming through
again?
Some were hurt, so some women dropped out of boot camp because they were injured, or they
were recycled to another platoon because they were injured and needed to recover.
Interviewer: Right.
That- that, that's very common and so I'm not saying they failed or couldn't hack it just...
�Interviewer: Oh yeah no, it happens to men too yeah.
But a lot of women just got there and realized this is not for me and those women are weeded out
real quick. You will not survive boot camp unless you want to survive boot camp and the fastest
way out of boot camp with an honorable dis… or the fastest way out of boot camp is to get
through it.
(21.04)
Interviewer: Alright now was there a point in boot camp when you figured out what it was
that they were doing, or did that only really occur to you after you were done?
It kind of it occurred to me after I was done, how effective the training was or what the training
actually did to me. At the time like I- I knew that oh they're trying to discipline us and stuff but it
was just- it was just like a different environment than I was used to so I didn't really comprehend
like what was going on and how the training was breaking me down and building me back up.
Interviewer: Okay now physically were you in good enough shape to handle all the stuff
they had you do?
Physically I yes, I was an athlete in high school, so I just transitioned right into it. I it was not…
so I've never been a phenomenal runner but I can run, and I can do push-ups and, you know at
the time I was really nervous because you know it's the Marine Corps and but they make the
training in a way that starts you from the beginning. So, not everyone was where I was
physically because I was an athlete, not everyone was an athlete, so they keep that in mind. They
start everyone off at the same level. So, yeah while I was nervous like I had other reasons to be
nervous other than physical training but they- they are realistic about training in my opinion or
were at the time.
�Interviewer: Alright anything else about those first 13 weeks that kind of stands out in your
memory? There doesn't have to be.
(22.48)
There are a few, I guess it's just, it’s just a long time ago so- so there was this one time on the
rifle range and speaking about women getting weeded out. There's this one time on the rifle
range that there was this girl who intentionally kept missing because she wanted out of boot
camp and she didn't like it, and she made it through first phase, and I remember thinking it might
have been me being naive. But I'm like well why would you sign up? And I, why don't you want
this? I want this, like this is just a foreign concept to me and… but yeah if the girls who wanted
out found a way. And… but I didn't, I wanted to complete it and like there's no challenge that
I've ever not really given my whole heart into. Whether I completed it or not, but I was not gonna
not complete boot camp, and I think receiving the Eagle of an Anchor at the end was one of the
proudest moments in my life, if not the proudest. And it sets the tone for every marine going into
the Marine Corps, every Marine receives an Eagle of an Anchor, everyone gets it pressed into
their palm and everyone remembers that, what that feeling is like and that kind of unifies us
throughout like our service and whenever a Marine starts kind of losing their way another
Marine can be like, “hey do you remember that feeling? Do you remember what it was like? This
is why we act the way we act. This is why we hold on our courage and commitment in our hearts
is because of that moment; because we all felt it and we all felt that pride, and so you got to do
your duty the way that you're expected to. The way you committed to.” And yeah, it's just kind
of a unifying thing.
(24.33)
�Interviewer: Now once you complete those 13 weeks do you now go to a school for your
MOS or is there any additional training that everyone gets before that?
So, in the Marine Corps after boot camp we go to Marine Combat Training or for infantry guys
they go to infantry ITV (infantry training battalion.) So, as at the time females weren't allowed in
the infantry so all females went to Marine combat training and it wasn't just female exclusive it
was every Marine that was not signed up to be an infantryman.
Interviewer: Okay.
So, that's the only separation. Every Marine needs combat training. Infantry Marines go to
infantry training battalion because that's doubles as their job school.
Interviewer: Right.
And we just get the basic month of down-and-dirty, this is how we do things, this is how you
patrol, this is how you guard a tower, this is how you use a radio, this is how you treat you know
medical like I need this various medical, like an injury…
Interviewer: Wounds, injury.
Yeah wounds and so it was like down and dirty a lot of information packed into that month.
(25.42)
Interviewer: Okay and where did you do that?
North Carolina camp Johnson.
Interviewer: Okay is that part of Camp Lejeune?
It is within Camp Lejeune yes.
Interviewer: Okay, alright you get- you get that for a month and how did that go for you?
It was interesting it was my first time working with males and I mean it felt… I mean it's a tough
month they're hard on you. Like, but I was kind of like expecting that because boot camp was
�hard on us too. So, after boot camp you get 10 days leave and then you go to Marine Combat
Training and you learn more in depth about rifle training, about patrolling, about basic combat
techniques that expounded upon what you learned on in boot camp. And yeah, that’s all I
remember.
Interviewer: Okay, alright, so you kind of get that, so you've got that and then where do
you go next?
After Marine Combat Training you go to your MOS school or your military occupational
specialty school. I signed up for public affairs, so I went to Fort Meade, Maryland it's a joint
base. It was an army base, but it was joint schooling. So, I went to- I went to school with every
service Navy, Air Force, Army, Coast Guard even so did I forget one?
(27.04)
Interviewer: Well no because you are, Army, Navy, Air Force yeah- yeah Coast Guard,
yeah yes that's all. Okay now how was that experience different from your Marine Corps
training?
It was different because every branch is a different culture and I remember being really
motivated and really excited about being a Marine and you know just a little nineteen-year-old
me and so there was a lot of you know trash-talking between like all services because we were
all brand new and we all wanted to be like “yeah we're the best” kind of thing and that's just, it's
just how it was. And it was my first experience with that. It was actually really fun getting to
know other services, it wasn't just trash talk we actually built relationships and we learned things
about other services and other people our age who made different decisions and what services
they made, it was- it was a good experience. The schooling itself taught journalism, it was three
months I can’t remember if it was three or five months, but I think I was there for five months,
�but the school was three. They taught us basic photography, basic journalism, how to write
stories, how to interview people, how to record people for video interviews, down-and-dirty
journalism, multimedia journalism and that's what it was. And after I completed school, they
gave me orders to the Marine Corps Combat Center Twentynine Palms.
(28.27)
Interviewer: Okay, now at the school itself I mean did that work based off like a nine-tofive job as opposed to kind of other sorts of training that you had or were they still waking
you up in the middle of the night or was there still a military training aspect to the school
or was it now more professional?
The school were definitely was a more professional environment, but they were still military
training. We woke up super early to go run together or go PT together. We, the Marines all were
in one barracks type building we each got our own rooms, or we shared rooms with people but
we, it wasn't a squad-based setting anymore. But yeah no, we all woke up together well PT’d,
showered up, went to school together till 5 in the evening and then we had the evenings off.
Interviewer: Okay and what proportion of that group was female?
So, in my MOS, it was probably about 50/50. My MOS is pretty- pretty mixed-gender,
Interviewer: Right.
And the diversity is pretty good. The Marine Corps overall when I was in only 6% of the Marine
Corps was female so that is rare to see a 50/50 mix between female/ male.
(29.44)
Interviewer: Okay so now you head off to your first base and it's at Twentynine Palms,
California describe that place a little bit.
�So, the Marine Corps Air Ground Combat Center Twentynine Palms, California; well from a
Michigan girl, never really left Michigan other than the occasional family vacation. I’d never
been to the desert before and I heard stories, I heard stories that it was like the heat like the worst
base to go to and no Marine wants to get stationed in Twentynine Palms and I was like “oh no,” I
was like freaking out. Like my first duty station is in Twentynine Palms, well I kind of learned to
embrace the desert. The desert California’s beautiful and if you go in there with a mindset of “oh
I'm gonna have a terrible time,” you're gonna have a terrible time and I kind of learned that. It
took me a few months to adjust because I wasn't used to anything other than East Coast, but what
really kind of on my personal time attracted me to that area was Joshua Tree National Park; I
love climbing and hiking and it was just beautiful. The desert flowers in the spring it’s just, it
was- it was really great community, the actual base where I worked there's some really great
people, people who love the area and love the Marine Corps just kind of stick around and you
kind of get to know the culture of the base itself even though Marines are always transitioning in
and out, the culture of the area it's really a family type environment. The combat center was very
fast-paced, we had battalions it's- so the combat Center is really fast-paced we had it- it was a
transition base so before units went to Afghanistan or Iraq they would have to train in
Twentynine Palms, they would have to get desert warfare trainings so we had battalions coming
through all the time. It was like very fast we had deployments leaving and coming and buses
leaving and coming full of Marines all the time and I was a journalist; I was a photographer, but I
was stationed at headquarters battalion, so I wasn't allowed to deploy with them. And I think my
biggest frustration was building relationships with these guys, spending time with them in the
field, taking their picture, interviewing them, and watching them leave on buses, and watching
most of them come home seven months later and not all of them and that was, as a Marine who
�wanted to be there to document their stories and stuff it was it was frustrating that I couldn't go
with them.
(32.23)
Interviewer: Okay and then sort of what kind of group were you working with? Was there
a certain set of people you were normally with and how large was it or how many people
were you…?
You mean stationed in my section?
Interviewer: Yeah.
So, in headquarters’ battalion, it's kind of like, I used to say its kind of like the misfits of- that
run the base; we have, it’s a unique battalion because there's sections of people all in one
battalion. Then we have the supply section, we have the transportation section, we have motor
pool, we have the admin section, we have the journalists like that was us, there was combat
camera, there's just all like the, all a bunch of sections making up one battalion. So, whereas
normal battalions’ kind of interact all day or a lot and they get to know each other and what
companies and stuff, we were so separated, and we only got together during unit PTs or special
events. We tried but I mean you, so each section became very close and I had probably eight or
nine Marines in mine maybe ten at sometimes and we work at the base newspaper at the time,
before the base newspaper disappeared. So, every week we had to tell stories about what's going
on in the base and I'd take pictures of Marines in training. So, since there was so much transition
of battalions coming in before Afghanistan I would take a lot of like I'd go out to the field a lot
with them and just kind of document them before they head out, and kind of tell the story about
the training that they're being prepared for before they go over there. But yeah so it was- it was
�just cool, I got to know a lot of people in my own battalion only because my job required so
many stories to be put in the newspaper that I went out and like actively sought them out.
(34.08)
Interviewer: Alright and when you're, you want to interview people and so forth what kind
of responses did you get?
So, Marines are typically pretty private people, or not they don't… I don't know it some- some
Marines are really helpful, and some were like “I don't want to be in the media.” It was kind of
frustrating at times because I understood that, like absolutely we don't join the military for
recognition or fame or to have our face out there, but as they got to know me and like kind of
trusted that I can do my job well and will make them look good basically or will support them. A
lot of the pictures and videos I took were for the families and were for people back home it
wasn't necessarily for that Marine, it was to tell their story and well as some of them didn't want
their story being told, it was important to tell their story and that's kind of, yeah the angle I took
it from and they kind of understood that. So, yeah, I understood I, that some of them didn't want
their faces out there but you know I had to do my job, so I figured it out.
Interviewer: Alright and you kind of learned in a way sort of how to talk to them or
approach them, did you get a sense of how they're gonna respond as you're gonna… or
how to deal with people of different personalities and feel that out?
(35.39)
Absolutely, you know actually being a Marine Corps journalist instead of just a journalist
coming on a base really helped because we had that bond already, or that mutual understanding
of what being a Marine is and so like no one was like just outright disrespectful at least not to my
face about not wanting their you know their presence out there, because like we were both
�Marines; there was like that mutual respect there. So, as a journalist coming in not a lot of them,
or yeah most of them have never been in the military, don't know what the standards are: how
you conduct yourself professionally, how we hold each other accountable, and you know what
being a Marine actually means so.
Interviewer: Alright now would units coming back from Afghanistan or Iraq if there were
any at that point, did they go back through Twentynine Palms or?
Not every one of them, so say a unit deploys out of Camp Lejeune so they go to Twentynine
Palms to train, go back to Camp Lejeune and deploy from there but we had infantry battalions at
Twentynine Palms that were stationed there so they did go to the sandbox as they called it, they'd
go to Iraq or Afghanistan and they'd come back and just stay in Twentynine Palms because that's
where they lived.
(36.56)
Interviewer: Okay and then did you interview some of them after they're back or was that
not part of your job?
I did. I think most of the stories that were impactful were off the record though because of those
relationships built.
Interviewer: Yeah.
So, I wouldn't say that I wrote a lot of stories about you know that their personal experiences
other than the ones that kind of like “hey like this is what we did, this is just letting you know,
like this is what the Marines this is how the Marines are doing awesome things and just keeping
you informed.” But like when they came to a real like down and dirty stuff it was more important
to me to build relationships and be there, be available for those people to like talk in a trusting
environment without being like fear of on-the-record.
�Interviewer: Now on some level is that kind of part of what your job is or was that just
some way that you dealt with things yourself?
I think it's just being a Marine, you know there's a kind of a joke between all the branches that
the Marines of the brainwashed ones and you know the Marines are like a cult or, you know it's
probably true. I don't know we just have like a special understanding of what it's like to be a
Marine and we just have a lot of pride in who we are and I mean every service is respectable and
you- you're giving up your time and you're serving your country and stuff but you know as a
Marine I'm a little biased because like we have that understanding and it's- it's funny to you
know trash talk each other sometimes like I got some really good Airforce friends that just mess
with me all the time and I'm just like, “hey you know whatever you right we are a cult.”
(38.39)
Interviewer: Okay now how long were you based in Twentynine Palms?
I was in Twentynine Palms from ‘09 to ‘13 and then I was transferred to Marine Corps Base
Hawaii Kaneohe Bay in 2013 and then I stayed on island till 2016 but I transferred to Camp
Smith while on Island which is another base on Island.
Interviewer: Okay, now so you've got basically four years at Twentynine Palms. Did your
job change over that time or were there things about the environment that changed at all?
In Twentynine Palms no, I worked in a newspaper the entire time.
Interviewer: So, they still had a newspaper by the time you left?
Yeah and then when I transfer to Marine Corps Base Hawaii, they're just like on the tail end of
their newspaper so I kind of started working at their newspaper for a year but then there became
a huge social media focus. It was, in my job field it's different because communication overall
changes, and grows, and develops. I mean when I was a kid I had a, like we didn't have cell
�phones and then I had my first flip phone when I got my license but like barely; it was prepaid
minutes and now like I see you know nine year old’s having iPhones. It's just- it's just crazy how
technology and communication changes over time. So, for a very old school environment like the
Marine Corps that is very stuck in tradition it is really difficult to tear their newspapers away
from them and be like this is not how we communicate anymore, we communicate via social
media, through like online presence, through building relationships, having a continual presence.
And the Marine Corps actually is leading all the branches I would say in their social media
presence. The, their branding is amazing and how they've taken it but there's still like the oldschool mentality of a lot of the Marines to just kind of like, wait but we need our newspaper, and
I’m like it's not how people communicate anymore. So, it's- it's actually transitioning out and I
have loved that I've gotten to see the Marine Corps grow from one aspect to another.
(40:44)
Interviewer: Okay now how long was your original enlistment?
My original enlistment is four years.
Interviewer: Okay so at a certain point you decided to re-up then?
Yes.
Interviewer: To stay in there. So, when did you make that decision?
I was in Twentynine Palms and I was on my last year of enlistment and something hit me that,
I'm not ready to get out, like what am I gonna do go to college? Like and I’m obviously I'm just
going to college now, there's nothing wrong with going to college, but I just I wasn’t ready. I
was- I was disappointed because I worked so hard to be a Marine and I wanted to deploy and I
wanted to do all these amazing things and I, as much as I loved Twentynine Palms or grew to
love Twentynine Palms I never left it, I never did anything that I wanted to do so I- I realized
�that I got to reenlist because I got to see what else is out there in the Marine Corps like I love the
Marine Corps so maybe they'll deploy me next enlistment. But there was a time, yeah this is a
little more personal but I don't mind sharing it; so the Marine Corps is… attracts very ‘good old
boy’ type mentality like, country boy traditional and that very… attracts very progressive women
and those two cultures don't mix very well. So, a lot and I'm not speaking, I’m not speaking for
all individuals, every individual is different. But I'm just telling you from my experience how I
saw things. I know what I saw was a lot of men very hesitant, or still feeling very new that
there's female leadership above them and that was not an easy thing to maneuver through. I never
experienced sexism before, I never experienced a culture where sexual assault, I wouldn't say
they have a rape culture in the military I would say that it's a very real thing. And they, like they
do their best to train and inform and educate like I- I really think they try but it's a very real thing
and- and a culture like that, being thrown into a culture like that as a female just from a gender
perspective was not easy. I felt like I worked twice as hard for half the credit a lot. So, picking up
rank I was proud of myself but not everybody else was. So, having a culture like that there was,
when it came to reenlisting I was really thinking about getting out because it was kind of
exhausting to adjust to that but I had a Gunnery Sergeant who was, I was a corporal at the time
so I was an E-4, he was an E-7 a Gunnery Sergeant he told me that you know, “Anderson you
single-handedly changed my mind about female Marines, you are a good example and the Corps
would be losing a good Marine. Wouldn't it be worth it to reenlist and change one more mind?”
And I'm like that's it, I'm reenlisting, like I got to, that like if, that was just, that meant a lot to me
when he said that. And just you know there are stereotypes that are- that are ahead of you as a
female Marine and, or as I’m sure a female military in general. I can't speak for any other branch
but there’s stereotypes that you constantly have to battle and even if you never live up to one of
�them, you still have to battle it just because of how you're born. And so, when he encouraged me
like that and just kind of basically told me that I was breaking glass ceilings without even
knowing it. I was just like, yes let's do it like I’ll reenlist, and you know what I actually did, I
picked up rank I gained more confidence I got more leadership roles and I became an example
for, or I strove to become an example for other female Marines to the best of my ability at least.
(44.44)
Interviewer: Okay now when you reenlist do, they offer you a chance to- to pick your next
station or at least put in requests or how do you wind up in Hawaii?
So yeah when you reenlist the first time you get an incentive and my incentive was a deployable
unit in Hawaii so that's how I got Hawaii. They're like okay you were in the desert for four years,
I'm sure we can get you, we can you know pull some strings and get you a tropical island so that
was nice but when I got to the unit it transitioned into a non-deployable unit or it'd be option of
deployment went away.
Interviewer: Okay.
And so, I was like man… alright we can make the best out of this, but I ended up falling in love
with the Island of Hawaii and I did go, I did travel a little bit but not nearly as much as I wanted
to.
Interviewer: Now which island is the base on? Is it on Oahu or is it on the Big Island or?
Yeah both bases are on Oahu.
(45.39)
Interviewer: Okay.
Actually, every military base is on Oahu, so.
�Interviewer: Alright. Okay so yeah now what was- what was what were you actually doing
on that base because you said the newspaper goes away so then what are you doing?
So, I, we had a public- public affairs is the military version of public relations in this equivalent
at least into the civilian world. So, we did a lot of media escorts, we did talking points,
interviews, I still interviewed people, I still wrote stories but it was more like a social media
aspect and it was just different focus, different platform we use. So, my job didn't change it was
just a heavier focus on how do we effectively communicate to people or how do we, what's the
best way? And we did a lot of media training as well for units, to how to use their social media
accounts, how to, every battalion has like their own Facebook so how do you use it? We’ll will
teach you how so… yeah that's kind of, we’re the communication people.
Interviewer: Alright now did you have to learn a lot of that stuff yourself or had you or far,
were you far enough along with that kind of thing by the time you got there that you could
just step into it?
(46.43)
A lot of it was experimentation on social media, like do videos work better? Or do photos work
better? And since communication is always changing and evolving it was kind of both selftaught and as a team. We learned together; we did a lot of experimenting as a unit like of like ten
people. We, let's try new things out and that's what I really appreciated about my MOS is it was a
very creative environment and in a military setting you don't get a lot of creative environments
and that's why I just I loved my job so much we got to, I got to meet new people every day and I
got to experiment and create graphic designs and news articles and it's just I loved it. It was just a
lot of freeing artistically but while still holding the standard of discipline and being a Marine.
�Interviewer: Okay in terms of the kind of content of the stories and stuff that you're doing
how was it different in Hawaii from Twentynine Palms? Where you talking to different
kinds of people or people who have done different things, or did it all seem pretty much the
same?
(47.43)
So similarly, the bases both had infantry battalions so there was that culture there, but in Hawaii
because of its location in the Pacific we were closer to a lot of different countries and we did a
lot of exercises that promoted like regional security. We’d would work with Australia or
Indonesia, and Japan, Korea we- we’d partner with these nations to do training exercises just in
case something happens like the Earthquake in Nepal when everyone started sending- sending
aid, we had to know how those countries functioned that way we can like build up security in the
region.
Interviewer: Right.
So, we did I worked, I was so blessed I worked with like a bunch of different countries and
learned you know how they do their- their routines and their ranges and I have made friends
from all over the world, it was- it was fun experience.
Interviewer: Okay what, were there things that you learned that kind of surprised you
about these people or these places?
(48.49)
You know one yeah, a bunch of, I learned a bunch of different things. One thing I did notice on a
few training exercises is how well some militaries integrated their females and males, like as a
female Marine that was like my biggest struggle was always being out there with the guys as the
photographer but usually I was the only female in the field so a lot of guys didn't know how to
�handle me and they eventually warmed up to me after a few days you know, but like at first it's
like, “what, why is she here? She's not a… in the infantry.” At the time females weren’t allowed
in the infantry. So, New Zealand, Canada, and Australia in particular. I don't I mean, I don'tactually don't know all the issues with their services that they deal with but in the training
exercises they just, it just felt like they were so in sync the females and males. A lot of like
Canada in particular their army there seemed to be their average demographic or average age
was a little bit older than ours. Like late 20s, early 30s so there was like a maturity aspect when it
came to like integrating males and so I just- I just like watched them be like, while they can do it,
we can do it. Why are we freaking out? That females are gonna be allowed in combat roles?
Because they're doing it in these countries already and they're fine you know. It just gave me
perspective and I really appreciated seeing those different nations and like the pluses and
minuses on both and how we can improve and how, what how they're doing things and it was
just, it was cool.
Interviewer: Okay and did anything stand out to you about say a Japanese or Koreans?
(50.25)
So Asian- Asian countries they- they don't really integrate their females very well. So, when they
saw me a lot of them were just kind of like, like looking at me like I was a unicorn and I thought
that was funny, I got used to it after a while because we worked so often with other nations. But
it was just culturally like they don't have a lot of women heavily involved in their military. Not
saying that you know women don't have opportunity in those countries but in their military it
was just kind of weird that you know like I was just like a different foreign concept to them and
so that was in… that was interesting to kind of… it was, I thought it was funny and but it was
good, like I got to know them I'm a very friendly personality so I wasn't afraid to you know try
�and like I didn't obviously didn’t know the language but I'm not afraid to look kind of stupid to
get to know someone if you will, so. The Indonesians were fun, they would teach me somesome words and they just thought it was so funny like my accent and just I don’t know, it's good
I love my job for that to meet all these new people.
Interviewer: Okay and like how large was the section you were working with there and did
you have a team and so forth?
(51.47)
So, we had like I said, like a team between like eight and ten Marines in the public affairs and
then combat camera had like anywhere between like fifteen to thirty depending on the shop, but
when it comes to like video shoots and training, you're by yourself. So, you learned how to work
by yourself very like quickly. And you have to get all these, the missions and deadlines done
while coordinating what you need done with like for example an infantry battalion who doesn't
need Wi-Fi to upload photos and get them online, how do you function? Like how do you meet
your deadlines while being in the middle of a desert or being in an island with no connectivity
and so you have to problem-solve. So, individual working and problem-solving are like two
skills that I really picked up. Working with like, working at my job remotely.
Interviewer: Okay now when you'd go in the field like that what kind of equipment did you
take with you?
(52.45)
So you take your basic stuff like- like packs and your food and your, all your gear and everything
but also like my camera gear and computer were always with me because I needed to get photos
like put together, video projects put together, stories put together, and the soonest opportunity I
could to upload them I did. But I had all that extra gear too.
�Interviewer: Okay and the, I guess the camera equipment I mean how large a camera were
you carrying?
So, we had DSLRs which is like an awesome digital camera that does video and photos. So, we
are past the days of me carrying this giant video camera with me so, it's like the same, so like
yeah, the Canon- Canon just a normal camera kit that like professional photographers carry out
now is about the size of the kit I had.
Interviewer: Okay but that’s sort of on top of a lot of essentially the regular military kit or
at least if you're carrying your own food, water, things like that plus now did you have a
laptop computer or a tablet or what where you using at that point?
(53.46)
I had a laptop. Yeah so, you're right when it comes to like long distance hikes and stuff all thethe same- the packs that the guys had to carry; I had to carry that and camera gear. Now I- I
understand every guy had a different like weapon to carry too, like infantry guys have machine
guns and mortar tubes and like a bunch of other stuff additionally that I didn't have to carry but
the average standard pack we had and then I had the camera gear as well..
Interviewer: Alright so that- that original Marine training and so forth comes in handy at
that point because you’re used to go marching around places with a pack and all that kind
of thing. Okay, and are there other particular things about that first assignment in Hawaii
that kind of stand out for you?
(54.33)
Hawaii afforded me a lot more opportunity I think than Twentynine Palms and now I like I said I
like that base and it was fun learning the combat side of things; the desert warfare type things if
you will. But Hawaii I don’t know, I just, it's because there was an Air Wing there that was more
�available, I got to fly around more, I got to get on ship in Hawaii like I'd never been on a Navy
ship before. I, you know the Navy ship was a good experience but I'm really glad I didn't join the
Navy because I get seasick so like that's it, that's a real thing. I respect all those, my Navy friends
for that one. But I- I got to go to like the Big Island and train with like 40 other countries once,
like that was a master training exercise. I went to Australia for Marine Rotational Force Darwin.
The- the unit deployment program. I went to Australia again for Talisman Sabre so Australia was
a really only country that I got to visit, which is like kind of still my kind of deepest regret with
the military is not being able to, even though it wasn't my fault but not being able to travel as
much as I wanted to.
Interviewer: Right and you said with the deployments in history you mentioned Darwin
was at Darwin like the town in the northern part of Australia that you actually went to?
Yes.
Interviewer: Okay so what was that like?
(55.58)
Darwin, Darwin's like… so Darwin is not a like massive city like Sydney and it's kind of a
‘desert-y’ environment like really hot. It's not like a desert but it's just got like the tundra and
everything. So, we were based in Darwin but then we'd go on training exercises in Bradshaw
Training Area, which is like officially known, the- the outback if you well. So, we go into the
middle of the actual desert and we would run ranges and train and I mean it was sleeping
underneath the Milky Way in the middle of the outback. Seeing the Southern Cross, which is our
unit at the time, our unit constellation on our logo, like that was just it was just, it was so cool. I,
waking up like super early in the morning for a hike and like all the dust from the desert is like
piling up with a sunbeam showing through it, it was like a photographer's dream, like I had so
�much fun taking pictures in the outback. It was exhausting, you got dirty, you didn’t get to
shower very often, and you had to suck it up a lot, and you had to carry your own weight, but it
was an experience like nothing I've ever had.
(57.16)
Interviewer: Were you the only person from your unit that was doing that, or would you
have a few people that you knew with you?
So, in Darwin we had a few people, but we each like again when training exercise happened, we
each like went out and did our own thing. And when I actually went to train for our month and a
half, I believe that extra- that cycle was, we had four of us with us.
Interviewer: Okay.
So, we could all like kind of tag-team: you do video, I'll do photo, you write the story kind of
things, we all just kind of took turns.
Interviewer: Okay and when you went to that deployment do they fly you out or did you
have… so you're not riding a navy ship with a troop transport with everybody the whole
way?
(57.52)
Some do, I didn't I flew.
Interviewer: Alright, and then what was the other deployment in Australia then, as you
had…
That was a two-week training exercise, so it wasn't like a deployment it was called Talisman
Sabre every year there is a partnership with Australia in some way shape or form and there,
every other year they do Talisman Sabre and the off years are RIMPAC (Rim of the Pacific
Exercise) I believe.
�Interviewer: Okay.
I'm trying to make sure all my information is correct. Like I…
Interviewer: So now what area were you in then for Talisman Sabre?
Darwin.
Interviewer: Okay you're back in Darwin again.
Yeah.
Interviewer: Okay and do they take you back out in the desert again? Or do you… Okay.
Yep so that, because there's only two weeks I… there's some training exercises I went out for a
day and came right back because I needed to get the photos up. I'm going out for two days, some
I went out for a month, so it just depended, or a month or two. It depended on what the demands
of that were like and I would you know, when on the longer training exercises I would have like
a USB and send it back of photos or whatever if I couldn't connect, and I’d- I’d figured it out
every- every place you went you figured it out.
Interviewer: Alright and so were there vehicles or helicopters going back and forth
between the field and the rear so you could either hitch a ride or give something to
somebody?
(59.14)
Yes, they're usually, so when we go out into the field there's like this, they set up like a- like a
base camp if you will, and then you go even further out. So, like there's the base camp that you
can go to- to deliver stuff to.
Interviewer: Right.
But you're still out there you're not, I'm not going all the way back to Darwin that was like a tenhour drive.
�Interviewer: Alright now some people that hear about Australia, they think about
interesting and dangerous fauna did you have to worry about scorpions and snakes and
things like that or was that not an issue?
I was worried about that but I, we're in the middle of the desert like and there's tall dry grass so
there was brush fires everywhere and there's wildfires all over that area and- and we kept far
enough away for safety and everything. But we were, so there was like really tall dry grass
because in the- the wet season the whole place is covered, swampy and in the dry it's like a waste
land so there’s really tall dry grass that we're walking through for our, one of our patrol
movements and we just, we’re supposed to be quiet you know because, you know coming up on
a hypothetical enemy and I was just sitting there with my camera walking through this tall grass
like kind of low-key panicking that there's gonna be these crazy poisonous creatures everywhere.
I like remember nudging the guy next to me, I didn’t know who he was I'm like, “are you
worried about like snakes and stuff.” And he just kind of looks at me he's like, “I don't know.”
And I looked over to another guy and he heard us and he's just kind of like “shh.” And I’m like
okay you know I guess- I guess we're just gonna accept our doom and continue like whatever.
Like I'm sure somebody thought about it.
Interviewer: Okay but there weren't any formal warnings about the fauna or anything like
that?
No, I mean we saw kangaroos and stuff, but we never encountered anything super dangerous so.
(1:01.05)
Interviewer: Alright and at least if the Kangaroos attack your people are armed so.
Yeah exactly.
�Interviewer: Alright so you have, now you do, when you're in Hawaii you do switch
assignments, you go to a different base and how did that come about?
So, when I first got to Hawaii, I spent a year in their Marine Corps Base Hawaii but then there
were openings at Camp Smith, Marine Corps Forces, Pacific and so we're taking
recommendations from because we, I guess we had too many people at Marine Corps Base
Hawaii so they just transferred me and one other person over. And that was a higher command
that was unlike any of the command I had been in. Marine Corps Forces, Pacific was in charge of
every Marine Corps unit in that area. So, I worked two floors below a three-star general, I
worked two doors down from a full-bird colonel which is one step below a general, so it was, as
a sergeant like who was used to just dealing with people, peers, and a few enlisted ranks above
me, I had to learn real quick how to… I always felt like I was professional, but I had to learn real
quick that, how to talk to senior leadership within the entire organization of the Marine Corps.
And it was a good experience, I think not a lot of Marines get to see a general level and work
next to one, and it was really fun to kind of learn from like the older generation of Marines and
kind of learn leadership styles from what they had experienced, what they are, what I want to be,
and just kind of take, it was a good learning experience.
Interviewer: Now were the more senior people, were they used to dealing with women or do
they handle that professionally or do you still have the sense that you kind of don't belong
here?
(1:02.52)
With senior leadership they’re way more professional.
Interviewer: Okay.
�So, that was not- not really an issue with, for the most part. I mean I can't speak for every female
Marine obviously there's a bunch of situations, but it was kind of refreshing working around
people who were like older and like genuinely cared about your development or where guiding
influences if you needed it and so.
Interviewer: And where there some higher-ranking women in that assignment as well so
you're...?
Yes, but with that, when it comes to female leadership it's hit and miss and at the risk of
sounding like negative and the same with males too. There's not… a lot of… a bad leadership
can ruin your unit, it can ruin your experience, it can ruin your attitude, I mean if you let it. So,
there's unfortunately there's like a stereotype for a female Marines for a reason because there are
people who have bad, poor moral character or just like people who just are not good at
leadership. But when you find that female that is like what you want to be, like that is someone
to like cling to and become a mentee of for sure.
(1:04.13)
Interviewer: Okay, alright and was your job now different from what it had been
previously? Are you doing a different set of things or just the same stuff for a different
group of people?
So, I stopped- I stopped being so much of a journalist and more of a brand marketer if you will
and focusing heavily on media relations. I learned how to write press releases and talking points
for the generals when/ should they be interviewed. Media escorts; got to work with CNN, Fox,
VICE News, Reuters so I mean it was cool. I got to meet a lot of Pearl Harbor veterans because
Pearl Harbor is right down the road from Camp Smith. I got to see a lot of and appreciate a lot of
�like the history that I am a part of, and I learned a lot about the Marines’ role in the Pacific- the
Pacific Theater during World War II, so.
Interviewer: Alright does anybody, I mean so the, so some of it is you're gonna… using
Marine Corps history to help kind of promote the Marine Corps? Or are there some of the
events going on that your part of because you're at Pearl, in that Pearl Harbor area? Now
do they also pay attention to things that Marines did later, you know Vietnam or Korea or
the more recent conflicts, was that also, did you do things that related to those or was it
mostly World War II and now?
(1:05.42)
Absolutely actually I had a combat camera friend go to Vietnam to document retrieval of bodies
of Marines that never came home or service members.
Interviewer: Right.
So, like it was very, the history of the- the US presence in that area is very real and it's like still
a- a like it's still a big part of the history and taken very seriously and respectfully. When I was in
Hawaii 35 bodies of Marines were excavated from Tarawa from World War II an island of
Tarawa. Marines still hike to Iwo Jima like to this day to put their rank or their emblem on the
top to memorialize like the Marines that died there. The history of the Marine Corps is very
important to Marines; it's just who we are it's- it's those who came before us and those who are
coming after us. We kind of all see each other in like a bonding way of you were a Marine, and
this is what you did, and mad respect to you because you know that's- that's kind of what we're
all here for and so we’re, take care of our World War II veterans and Vietnam veterans if we get
the chance for sure.
�Interviewer: Okay now you basically do two hitches, you do eight years in the Marines. At
what point did you decide you were leaving?
(1:07.16)
The decision to get out was very bittersweet because I never stopped loving the Marine Corps. A
lot of, a lot of people get out because they're disheartened or disgruntled but like that was, I felt
like I was ready to get out. I did not get the deployment opportunities that I really wanted, and I
wasn't going to.
Interviewer: Okay.
And there's a… and I- I saw the next base I was going to would have advanced my career, but it
wouldn't have advanced my- my like just like my goals.
Interviewer: Yeah, your personal agenda, where you wanted to go. So, where did theywhere did they want to send you next?
They wanted to send me to a recruiting station to be a public affairs representative for an entire
region of recruiting which would have been awesome for my career. As a Marine though I- I
wanted to lead junior Marines, I wanted to deploy, and I wanted to do what I signed up to do and
that wasn't it. So, I just, I applied for some things to do. I didn't really get them and the decision
to get out was a very like personal like okay, I'm ready to go to college, like I'm ready to start a
new path, and I think it's important and any advice I give Marines that are getting out is make
sure you're ready. Because even now I don't regret the decision to get out, I miss it, but I don't
regret the decision to get out, but I encounter a lot of veterans who were like, “I want back in.”
And like you gotta be ready to get out, if you're not ready you're gonna like, what if I would have
stayed in mentality would tear you up so.
(1:08.50)
�Interviewer: Alright so when did you get out?
I got out the day after our Marine Corps ball in 2016 so it was kind of like the best like goingaway party I can take for myself, yeah so.
Interviewer: Okay and now you're back and you're a student at Grand Valley State
University, what are you majoring in?
I'm majoring in PR and advertising with an emphasis in PR with a minor in photography and I
am learning so much. Like it was fun doing photography in the Marine Corps, I learned a lot
there but the technical skills were not taught to me the way they should have, and I'm just
enjoying learning how to do studio photography, and abstract photography, and storytelling
photography on a level that I've never done before.
Interviewer: Okay now do you find that your background helps you or you know things
that some of the other traditional students don't know?
100% the military has 100% prepared me to set me up for success in the civilian world, at least
in the college environment and I have no doubt in the professional world as well. They've just,
they taught me, I didn't have discipline getting into the military, I have discipline now and I
didn't have as much confidence going in as I do now. Now confidence isn't like, I'm not cocky
I'm still humble, I've come from humble beginnings and like that's where I'm, I know where I
come from, but there is a level of like I got this and challenge accepted type mentality that I
didn't really have before, other than to take on the challenge of being a Marine so.
(1:10.26)
Interviewer: Okay well you've effectively answered the usual final question of an interview
like this; how do you think your- your time in the service affected you? Because I think you
just told me. Now are there, is there anything else that you recall that you- you want to put
�on the record here before we close this interview out? Or anything else, you think that kind
of stands with you in your mind that, if you think back to being in the Marines?
I definitely grew a lot as a person. There were some dark times and there were some really
motivating times. I- I was not like the perfect poster child of being a Marine but I did my best
and I think that the- the concept of a poster child is not an accurate one because we all come
from different walks of life. I'm grateful and I have nothing but good things to say about it even
though the challenges, even with sexism stuff that's not the Marine Corps fault, that's a human
error, and a lot of women unfortunately get like really disgruntled towards that attitude and
disheartened, and you just get exhausted after fighting a stereotype for so long and you still can't
win because it's a cultural mentality. It's not- it’s not like an individual person you can have a
discussion with.
Interviewer: Yeah, did that evolve at all over time, I mean or was you just by changing
stations you have a different environment?
No, it never evolved, never changed and the worst I got, the more rank I picked up and I mean I
ran into some really good leadership and really bad leadership. And the really good leadership
encouraged me and mentored me in a way I clung to that, and I guess that would be like advice
to anyone I would give is to cling to the ones you want to be like.
(1:12.07)
Interviewer: Yeah.
And learn, learn continue to learn from the ones that you don't want to be like. But, yeah it, a lot
of females had it worse off than I did because I'm a very flexible personality I- I try to
understand where people are coming from even though they say messed up things, I try to have
discussions with people and I wasn't like, I- I'm very slow to anger. So, like a lot of women
�really struggled with getting like, taking it so personally and so angry and instead of like letting it
roll off. Gotta get some thick skin and sometimes I think thicker skin than some of the guys. I
mean they have their own battles too they have to fight; the whole Marine mentality like you
have to be the Captain America, you know and if you're not then you're not really a good Marine
and like that's just a stereotype they have to face so we each have our own struggles. But I think
the most important thing is to respect each other's struggles and that's what a lot of, I found male
Marines lacked was the respect for the struggle of fighting that stereotype, instead of just
assuming, if that makes sense.
Interviewer: Sure, it does.
Assuming that we're part of it.
Interviewer: Yeah and it's really sophisticated view of the whole thing really and I’d just
like to close out here by thank you- thank you for taking the time to share the story today,
really told us quite a bit.
I appreciate you having me thank you.
�
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Title
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Veterans History Project
Creator
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Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27_AndersonS2303V
Title
A name given to the resource
Anderson, Sarah (Interview transcript and video), 2019
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2019-04-19
Description
An account of the resource
Sarah Anderson was born in 1990 in Muskegon, Michigan, and lived in the same house for her entire childhood. Anderson graduated high school in 2009 and immediately joined the Marine Corps since she disliked the mundane environment of the classroom, was energetic, and saw the positive impact the Corps had upon her brother. During the 9/11 attacks, Anderson was in the fifth grade and remembers being sent home early after hearing of the attacks over the radio, later influencing her decision to join the service. She attended Marine Boot Camp in August of 2009 at Parris Island, South Carolina, where male recruits were separated from female recruits, even though training standards were equal between the sexes. In addition to basic training, recruits were instructed on hand-to-hand combat in the Marine Martial Arts Program and Anderson recalled how all training was meant to break down recruits to build them up again as skilled, devoted, proud soldiers. After Boot Camp, Anderson transferred into Marine Combat Training in Fort Johnson, North Carolina, where she chose her career within the Corps, and then to Fort Meade, Maryland, for her Marine Occupational Specialty schooling in public affairs. She then chose her occupation within the Corps as a Combat Correspondent, or Strategic Communications and Mass Communicator, and described her occupational schooling as greatly constructive due to her greater exposure to the experiences of other branches of the U.S. Armed Forces. Anderson's first base assignment was in Twentynine Palms, California, where she interviewed Marines before they were deployed to Afghanistan, growing attached to her work and to the stories of these men. When her first four years of service ended, Anderson was encouraged to reenlist by her fellow Marines as well as an underlying dread that she had not seen enough of the Corps or the world. Once reenlisted, she opted to be stationed in bases on Oahu Island, Hawaii, where she continued her media work online and through interviews. She became exposed to working with military personnel of all ranks, urging her to quickly develop proper etiquette for addressing high ranking soldiers and commanders. She also acquired opportunities to work with military personnel from other nations from across the globe, allowing her to see into the military cultures of other countries. Anderson concluded that her work on Oahu taught her the values of working individually, thus independently, and problem solving between the needs of various specializations within the military. Later, she transferred to Darwin, Australia, for Marine Rotational Force Darwin, a unit deployment program, and Talus Mu Saber, a two-week training exercise held every other year between the American and Australian militaries. Anderson became more of a 'brand marketer' than a Combat Correspondent, focusing on both media and public relations through working with major media outlets, social media, and other forms of press coverage. With this new focus, she became more integrated with the history of the Corps in the Second World War, Vietnam, as well as current conflicts. After eight years in the service, Anderson made the difficult decision to leave the Corps in 2016 since she never acquired the deployment opportunities she strived for. From there, she attended Grand Valley State University for a degree in PR, advertising, and photography. She commended her recent academic ventures for teaching her the technical skills that the Corps could not provide her while also commending the Corps for teaching her discipline and responsibility. Reflecting upon her service, Anderson believed she grew tremendously as a person through the Corps by doing her best, especially in the face of subtle, underlying sexism or gender stereotypes. Ultimately, these subtle tensions in gender relations remained constant during her service. She also adhered to the moral and ethical teachings of various mentors and instructors who helped her build a stronger character and skills in leadership.
Pre-Enlistment: (00:00:52:00)
Enlistment/Training: (00:06:30:00)
Service: (00:29:48:00)
Post-Service Life: (01:07:17:00)
Reflections: (01:09:43:00)
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Anderson, Sarah
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
United States. Marine Corps
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video/mp4
application/pdf
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Veterans History Project collection, RHC-27
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401.
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Language
A language of the resource
eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b2a5e2b8fcb48a883fc57ad0e1584c0a.mp4
fd1cecd183e183d0b2b905fcb90c9d7d
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/eac40e377056536e7101f40bdbdf1286.pdf
e3419816a8c8dffc6eb2ece3dc5583f8
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
Wayne Anderson
(01:18:05)
Background (00:11)
Wayne Anderson introduces himself (00:11)
Born March 10, 1924 in Ionia Michigan (00:35)
Doesn’t remember much before grade school (01:06)
Emerson School, still standing today, and it was an old elementary school when
he was there. (01:22)
• Mother was a housemaid and his father worked all the time, commercial baker
(02:08)
• High School no longer stands, had built a new one when he was going into it
• Went to WV Lincoln School, it was a junior high (03:48)
• Ionia High School
o Didn’t play sports or instruments (04:26)
• Graduated in 1942 (05:43)
• Didn’t hear any speeches by Adolf Hitler (06:27)
• Anderson and interviewer have a good time reminiscing about radios (07:10)
• Discuss giving radio to nursing home radio museum and price inflation (10:03)
Employment Before Service
• Worked for Rexall Drug Store for three years (10:21)
• Got a job at a factory making jeep seats and tarps for the service
o Got paid more at the factory then at the drug store, quit on the spot of the
offer (11:01)
Enlistment (11:23)
• He was drafted
o Remembers the words: “Your friends and neighbors have chosen you”
(11:23)
• Sent to Camp Custer in Battle Creek, Michigan
o Spent three weeks here for pre-basic training (12:00)
• Didn’t travel a lot before his service, he was scared and confused because he
didn’t know what the future held for him (12:14)
• He got drafted at age 18
• Sent to Jefferson Barracks in Missouri for basic training
o “Hell hole of the nation” (14:44)
• Basic training, worked to the ground
o Officers were mean (14:55)
• Woke up at 5:30 a.m.
o Had to make beds, clean up, and get dressed in minutes then run out for
roll call
• Couldn’t even use the restrooms before roll (16:21)
•
•
•
•
�Could choose where he went into training
o Cook, armaments, airborne
• He took up armaments (18:15)
• Learned how to take apart a gun and put it back together (18:58)
• Sent to Lansing Michigan to learn about guns
• He didn’t go visit his family in Ionia when he was in Michigan because he didn’t
have time or transportation (19:54)
Training (21:56)
• Went to Hamiliton Field in California
o Permanent place, brick buildings
o Was here for three weeks (21:56)
• March Field, now its March Air Base
o Stayed here for a long time (23:11)
• Put on a train and sent to Kansas City, then on to Boston to a military camp near
there (24:06)
• Sat around, nothing to do while waiting for their assignment (25:10)
• Taken to New York, marched into a warehouse and told they were aboard the
Queen Elizabeth, they did not realize they had entered onto a boat
o En route to England
o Ship traveled alone because it went very fast (26:25)
England (28:16)
• Nice, hot weather(28:16)
• King’s Cliff Air Base in England 1943 (30:35)
• Argues about planes with the interviewer
o P-51 Mustangs won the war
o They could fly to Berlin and back (32:08)
• At King’s Cliff Air Base for two years while he was in Europe (33:02)
• Set out P-51 Mustangs and loaded them up with ammo and repaired them on the
D-Day invasion (33:24)
• Went to Manchester when he was given weekend passes
o Went to pubs, and took girls out (38:30)
• Weren’t bombing too heavily by Germans when he got there
o Germans probably didn’t know there was an Air Base there
o The Germans were testing heavily with the V2 rockets
• Could hear an explosion from up to four miles away (41:20)
• Talked about buzz bombs
• “If you could hear them you were safe” (42:32)
• He was not married when he went to war
o He looked for a new girl everywhere he went, didn’t tie himself down
(44:32)
Battle of the Bulge (45:57)
• Took six men from every air base to be sent down to Hamilton Air Base for basic
infantry training to be sent out to reinforce those at the battle of the Bulge
o Intensive
• Sent to France once his training was done
•
�Camp Chesterfield, 30 miles from Paris
o Never took a leave to go to Paris (47:41)
• He was not needed for combat duty when his training was done
o Turned to the south, went to Lyon
o Told not to drink the water, drainage pipes went right into water supply
(48:21)
• Made camp in Marseille, France
o Was here when war ended (51:12)
• Spent three weeks on machine gun guard duty at a German P.O.W. camp
o The inmates were given spoons to eat with due to fear of the German
soldiers using them as shanks
� Given pails to be filled with food to eat out of (51:28)
• Told to board a ship that was headed for the South Seas theatre in the Pacific
• When they got on to the ship they were told that they were going home, lots of
tears of joy
o Happy when they saw the Statue of Liberty (57:07)
• Docked in New York, doesn’t remember where he went after that
o Thinks he went back to Boston (59:18)
• Sent back to Jefferson Barracks, Missouri (59:55)
• At Jefferson Barracks, a group of men were marched over to a building and told
to find a seat, they were then told they were honorably dismissed from the Army
Air Corps
o Put through demarcation procedures (01:00:00)
After the Service (01:02:10)
• Dropped off in Grand Rapids on his return trip
• He was in Calais, France when he heard about the bombs being dropped on in
Japan
o He doesn’t feel that the US had a very good idea of the exact capabilities
of the bombs (01:05:07)
• Met his wife and they had a few dates then got married after six weeks (01:06:00)
• Is sad about his wife and her mental condition that she has developed
• They discuss their marriages (01:10:08)
• He was not a part of unions when he joined the workforce after the war
o Thy control your life and ruin the economy (01:14:50)
• Worked on a punch press (01:15:14)
• Quit his job because he was given the choice to join the union or be fired, so he
quit to stand up for his beliefs on the matter (01:16:06)
• Went to college for a few semesters, GI Bill did not help him with all the funding
o Had a baby coming so he had to drop out to get a job to pay for the child
and his family
o Moved around a lot (01:17:06)
•
**Cuts out**
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Veterans History Project
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1914-
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-27
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Anderson, Wayne S. (Interview outline and video), 2007
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Anderson, Wayne S.
Description
An account of the resource
Wayne Anderson served as an armorer in the Army Air Corps from 1942 to 1945. He was based in England and serviced fighter planes, primarily P-51 Mustangs, that escorted bombing missions. At the time of the Battle of the Bulge, he was assigned to infantry training in France, but was not needed for combat. He served as a prison camp guard before being sent back to the US for his discharge.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Collins Sr., Charles E. (Interviewer)
Collins, Carol (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States--History, Military
Michigan--History, Military
Veterans
United States. Army. Air Corps
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Video recordings
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2007-06-29
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AndersonW
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/836a13c38e936443effbf5034abd889f.mp4
e2af5c96a3d378d8ac6f7a99f8896749
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/20900ff7830055b61eb8f83574a068d6.pdf
d872b7f0104e225c1a62d6bfc9606994
PDF Text
Text
Living with PFAS
Interviewer: Danielle DeVasto
Interviewee: Andrea Amico
Date of Interview: 2023-02-10
Danielle DeVasto: I'm Dani DeVasto. And today, February 10, 2023. I have the pleasure of chatting with
Andrea Amico. Hi Andrea.
Andrea Amico: Hi,
Danielle DeVasto: Andrea, can you tell me about where you're from and where you currently live?
Andrea Amico: Sure. Um, I grew up in central Massachusetts, uh, Leominster, Mass, but I currently live
in Portsmouth, New Hampshire.
Danielle DeVasto: How long have you lived there?
Andrea Amico: I moved to Portsmouth New Hampshire in 2007 when my husband took a job up this
way, it brought us from Massachusetts to New Hampshire. And we have been here since.
Danielle DeVasto: Can you tell me a story please? About your experience with PFA S or with PFAS in
your community?
Andrea Amico: Sure. So I like to say in May of 2014, my life changed forever. I read a newspaper article
that had said they found high levels of PFAS in the drinking water wells at the Pease Tradeport, uh, which
is imports with New Hampshire, where I live. And it is home to a former Air Force base that had been shut
down in 1991. So many years before I had moved to the area and really knew a lot about the prior Air
Force base and the fact that it was a super fun site. I didn't know that, but why it was important to me and
devastating to me, frankly, when I learned that there was contamination, there was because my husband
was working for a company at the Pease Tradeport. And my two children were attending a daycare center
located at the Tradeport, and all three of them were drinking the water every day. And so when I read that
article that they had found high levels of PFAS, and they had to shut down a large drinking water well,
because the contamination was significant. Um, my heart sank, you know, because I was like, whoa, I
don't know what these chemicals are, but my family's drinking that water. My kids are drinking that water.
Like, what is this? What does this mean? So that's how I became introduced to PFAS back in 2014.
Danielle DeVasto: And then what happened after that point for you? So you found out, you read the
article and then, and then what?
Andrea Amico: Yeah. So I started attending community meetings that were being hosted by our city and
our state, and I just started trying to learn as much as I could about these chemicals. And, you know,
back then in 2014, there wasn't a lot of information. Honestly, I, you know, searched the internet and I
could find stuff about the C8 health project and C8 health study in Parkersburg, West Virginia. I found
some EPA documents that were like 800 pages long and really hard to make sense of, but PFAS was
not, uh, known and given the, you know, attention in the media and, uh, frankly like the scientific studies
and resources that it is today. Um, and so I attended some community meetings and tried to do my, do
my best to educate myself. And, um, the first thing I really started advocating for was blood testing for my
community, because I knew that these chemicals built up in the body, and they stayed there for a long
time. And I knew that you could have a blood test to determine how much was in your body. Um, even
Page 1
�though we don't really know what that means, but you know, or at the time we didn't really know what it
meant, but, so that was like one of the first things I did was advocate for blood testing. And then I formed
a community action group with two other moms whose children also went to the daycare center, and we
formed a group called Testing for Pease. And our first big, big push was that blood testing program.
Hence, the testing part of Testing for Pease.
Danielle DeVasto: And how did that go?
Andrea Amico: Um, so we were successful. It took a lot of pressure, um, but we were able to get our
State health department to offer a PFAS blood testing program to our, to the community at the Pease
Tradeport, um, between 2015 and 2018 of almost 2000 people participated in that program. And it did
reveal elevated levels of PFAS in the blood when compared to the, you know, general population. We
know everybody has some detectable levels of PFAS in their blood, but the levels at the Pease Tradeport
were elevated when compared to, you know, the general population. And with that information, we were
able to advocate for filtration of the drinking water and the Air Force paid for that. Uh, we were also able
to advocate for health studies for the community, and we were successful in getting two PFAS health
studies for our community. One was with the ATSDR, Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease
Registry. They're a kind of like a sister branch of the CDC. They're a federal health agency that works
with communities who have dealt with environmental contamination. Um, so we did have a large health
study done, uh, that actually wrapped up about a year ago, and we're still awaiting our community results.
And we have another health study that's ongoing today, um, called the PFAS reach study and that's
funded by the NIEHS, and that is, um, looking at children of mothers who drink water at Pease, um, and
looking at their, the child's PFAS levels and their immune function, 'cause we know PFAS can impact
vaccines and vaccine effectiveness and the immune function of children. So, um, so we've been really
successful here, you know, that blood testing program that we initially advocated for, I think opened up a
lot of opportunities for advocating for remediation filtration and additional health studies.
Danielle DeVasto: Wow. That's great that you guys have been so successful. What do you attribute that
to? 'Cause I don't think that's the story everywhere.
Andrea Amico: Yeah, I completely agree. I think there's a couple things. I think we were one of the first
communities to really grapple with this. I know there were some others, but um, we were one of the first
back in 2014, like I said, you know, Parkersburg, West Virginia was kind of on the radar with the CA
health study there. But, um, and I know that, uh, the Wurtsmith Air Force Base had found their
contamination as well. But I think us being one of the first, uh, communities to have a really significant
contamination, uh, especially to a trad port of, you know, about 10,000 people were coming to this
tradeport to work every day. Um, so I think timing being one of the first and really pushing when there
wasn't a hundred other communities asking for the same thing, we were kind of the first ones. Um, I also
think, like I said, we were a tradeport. Um, our forma military base was closed under what's called the bra
program. It was the first BRAC site with DOD base realignment closure. Um, that program was really that
program focuses on taking former bases and redeveloping them. And so I know Pease was considered a
Page 2
�very big success story to the Air Force. The fact that they took this old base, redeveloped it into this large
industrial park with 250 businesses, 10,000 employees like there's, you know, community colleges,
restaurants, a golf course, um, all kinds of businesses, medical office buildings, restaurants, like this was
a highly successful place for New Hampshire as well as a large economic hub for New Hampshire. You
know, so they really, we, no one could just really walk away from this community. You know, I mean this
was a, a significant resource and asset to New Hampshire. So I think that was part of it as well. Um, and I
also think we were very successful in establishing relationships very early on with our congressional
delegation and our elected officials and a lot of the efforts that happened at Pease, where as a result of,
you know, our Senator from New Hampshire Jeanne Shaheen, who's been a PFAS leader in the U.S.
Senate, uh, making sure we have funding for the health study, the at ATSDR Health Study, really pushing
for the air force to clean up and filter the water. And, um, we also had an EPA order from region one that
ordered the E uh, Air Force to clean up the contamination. And again, I think part of that was timing of
being one of the first, but also just, I feel like it was a lot of things that came together, you know, timing
quick, organizing on the community part, asking for things, being one of the first and having strong
relationships with congressional leaders who were able to really, um, put legislation in place to give us
action. So I attribute all of our successes to a combination of those things.
Danielle DeVasto: Prior to all of this beginning, were you, um, did you have a background in community
organization advocacy work?
Andrea Amico: No, I get asked that a lot. No, I didn't. [LAUGHTER[ Um, so by training, I'm an
occupational therapist. I work in the world of rehabilitation, neuro adult rehab. Um, and so yeah, no, I
didn't have any knowledge. Like I was never an envi-. I wouldn't, you know, didn't think a whole lot, lot
about the environment, you know, like this just never politically active. Um, it just wasn't, it just wasn't
something I ever did or was never part of my life, even my family, you know, it just wasn't something I was
raised to do. So it honestly took this happening to my family and my community to kind of spark a fire
inside of me and say like, all right, like we gotta do something here, you know? And I think that's what
was so shocking to me in the beginning when like they found our contamination, they shut down the well,
and, you know, at first we were asking for blood testing, and it was like, we weren't getting, making a lot of
progress on that. And it just, it kind of like, it shocked me that like a large amount of people could have
been exposed, you know, were exposed to high levels of contaminants and drinking water. And at the
time they were calling them emerging contaminants and our State health department was like, we don't
really know the health effects. Like we're just not really sure. And it seemed like everyone was okay with
just not being sure as a reason to not do anything. And that just, I couldn't accept that, you know, and like,
I can't accept the unknown as a good enough answer not to do anything. Like if you don't know, you have
to find out, you have to do health studies, you have to do blood testing. Like you can't just leave us all to
carry on with our lives and not know if we're gonna get sick from this over time or, you know, so, um,
yeah, sorry. That was a long winded answer, but, uh, no, I didn't have any prior experience and in a way I
Page 3
�feel like that was a benefit. 'Cause I just came at this like trying to use common sense and be like, okay,
you have to do more like, it's like not acceptable to just accept the unknown.
Danielle DeVasto: So you're continuing right now with your advocacy work, correct?
Andrea Amico: Yes.
Danielle DeVasto: Like it's not, it's not done.
Andrea Amico: Oh, it's definitely not done. I, I tell people it's, it's like a lifetime. I have set my mind up
that this will be a lifetime of work for me in some way or another, you know? Um, I do a lot of work at the
national level now, so I'm part of the national PFAS contamination coalition. I helped found that in 2017,
and we're a large group of community, community leaders like me from all over the country, um, who are
also dealing with this issue, whether it's at former military bases like mine, whether it's at industrial sites,
like Saint Galvan um, that's contaminated, Miramac New Hampshire, Husick Falls, uh, Husick Falls, New
York, uh, lots of firefighters who also are concerned about PFAS. Um, so yeah, we're a real, you know,
broad group of people and working at the national level to try to get better EPA regulations, you know,
hold polluters accountable so they are forced to clean up this mess. They're forced to fund health studies
and, and make people whole again, you know, um, it's, it's incredibly wrong what has happened with
PFAS in this country? You know, the fact that manufacturers hid the health effects for so many years,
they were just allowed to manufacture so many PFAS, put them out into our environment. They're in our
bodies, um, with no regulations with no consequences. And even now what we know, we're still, we still
aren't at a point where they're regulated at a federal level. I mean, we're getting there, but, um, it's, it's, it's
absolutely horrific to me how this is all played out in our country. And I hope it's an example of like how
we need to do so much better as a country and as a society and how we treat chemicals and what we're
willing to expose people to. And, um, because these chemicals are never going away. And so anyways, I
see my work as something that will go on forever. I really do. As, as long as I'm living, there will be
something to work on with PFAS. Um, and, and I'm committed to that. You know, I, I gave a, a TEDx talk
in my community a few years ago, and I ended, I ended the line, like, I'll see people, and they're like, oh,
you're still doing that water stuff. And I'm like, yeah. And I, I ended my talk saying like, you know, I, I'm
never gonna stop because I'm just as per persistent as PFAS, you know, like, I'm, [LAUGHTER] I'm just
as persistent as PFAS. So like, yeah, it's, my work will evolve over time, but like I have committed my
mind to a lifetime of work on PFAS to some degree
Danielle DeVasto: In the move that you've made from kind of focusing on just the local to the national,
um, like what, what has that shift been like for you, or what have you noticed in making those shifts?
Andrea Amico: Um, well the I've noticed that I'm not alone., [LAUGHTER] um, we're not alone, you
know, as frustrating as it feels to be. Sometimes you can feel siloed in your own community and how
everything happens. Um, I've realized that there's a lot of other people out there just like us who have
experienced the same things, um, who want the same things. And all of our stories are different. You
know, our polluters are different. Our sources of PFAS are different in some cases, but like, we all want
the same things. Like we don't wanna be exposed to chemicals that we didn't volunteer or sign up for, you
Page 4
�know? Um, and so I've, I feel a sense of collaboration and I feel a sense of validation with a larger group
of people that it's not just us, it's not just New Hampshire, it's not just Portsmouth. Um, and I also feel a
bigger sense of responsibility. The more people that join our coalition and the more stories I hear, I feel
more of a sense of responsibility of why I need to keep going, because if I stop and look at like everything
we've gotten in my community, I'm really proud of that. And I'm really happy. And I feel like I could just be
like, Hey, we have our, you know, the Air Force is cleaning it up. They're filtering our water. We're getting
our health studies. We've had our blood testing like good, you know, like I could just, but I, I feel a bigger
sense of like, like you said, that's not the norm in most communities. Like people are fighting tooth and
nail for blood testing and health studies and filtration and, um, and the numbers of communities
discovering this contamination continue to grow. So I just, I feel a bigger sense of responsibility to
something bigger than just my community and trying to use the knowledge and the experience I have to
move the needle even further. Like we have to stop exposing people to PFAS. We do. Um, and, and we
have to study the people who have been exposed, and we have to make the people who have been
exposed and are harmed, we have to make them whole again, you know? And so, um, so there's yeah, a
lot more to do. And it's bigger than just here.
Danielle DeVasto: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm what concerns do you have about PFAS contamination moving
forward?
Andrea Amico: Well, I, I am concerned that a, a few things I'm concerned that we can't even detect all of
them, you know? So the current testing, we have lacks the ability to really know what's, you know, uh,
when something is said to be PFAS free, or we're gonna, you know, stop using PFAS, like my antenna
immediately goes up, like, what does that mean? Is that mean just 20 of 'em, you know, PFAS is a class
of, I've heard 12,000, 15,000, the number keeps growing. So it concerns me that we can't even detect all
of them or truly know what we're being exposed to. Um, it concerns me that we don't have any federal
regulations at this point. We have health advisories. Um, I know the EPA is working on that, but, you
know, we've known for a long time that PFAS are bad. And the fact that we don't have regulations yet to
stop exposure is unacceptable. You know. Um, another challenge that I think people are facing, and one
that I've spent a lot of effort on is the fact that health, the healthcare community doesn't know what PFAS
are. And, um, I mean, even in my own community, people got blood testing done, and they bring the
results to their doctor, and their doctor was like, I don't, I don't know what this is. I don't know how to read
these blood tests. I don't, I don't know what to do with this information. And so, you know, that's another
thing as more communities become exposed. I mean, one of the first things that pops into your mind
when you learn you're exposed for at least for me, it was, is my family gonna be okay? Like, are they
gonna get sick? Like, what do I need to do to monitor their health? Like, what should I do now? I can't
undo the exposure. I can't take the PFAS out of their body any faster. So now what, and then you, you
know, go to your doctor, which seems like a very appropriate step. And, and they're, they're just, you
know, they're uneducated about it. And, um, and it's not, it's not their fault, the physician's fault, it's that
they don't get environmental health training. They're not given guidance on PFAS. They don't even know
Page 5
�how to order PFAS blood tests, you know? So, um, I think there's a lot more that needs to be done too,
on the healthcare side of things. So like, you know, I think when, when you think about lead exposure in
kids, like doctors know that that's not good, and there's a level in the blood that you wanna be below. And
if a kid has lead, there's steps, you can take, you know, to help them. I hope someday with PFAS, we can
be there too with the healthcare community. They're gonna know how to test for it in the blood. They're
gonna know what levels are concerning. And if you have an elevated level, they're gonna know what tests
to run and steps to take, to monitor your health and try to keep you healthy, you know? And we have,
we've seen some progress on that for sure. But that's another area I think, need that needs a lot of work.
Danielle DeVasto: Before we wrap up today, is there anything else that you would like to add that we
haven't touched on today or anything that you'd like to go back to and say more about?
Andrea Amico: Um, I just think, I think a few thoughts, or just, I'll kind of elaborate on a few things I've
said, um, it's infuriating to me how far this PFAS issue has become, um, how far it's gotten out of hand, I
should say in the sense that the chemical companies that made these chemicals decades ago knew,
knew the harms of them. Um, they hid that information, and they continued to make these chemicals
profit off of them. And, and frankly, they continued to do that today. And I just, I, I really struggle with that.
You know, I really struggle that a company, uh, can do something like that to our entire society and yet
face no real consequences. Um, it's crazy to me that the people that have been harmed by these
chemicals the most are the ones that have to like stand up and fight tooth and nail, uh, while these
chemicals were, these companies were just allowed to profit off of them. And I, I think, I think our
government and our society should make a very strong example of these companies. And I think they
need to be criminally held responsible, uh, for what they've done. And, um, and I hope that we'll, I'll hope
I'll see that in my lifetime because they absolutely need to be held responsible. Um, I will also say that,
you know, as a mom, like this has been like one of the most emotional things for me as a mother, you
know? Um, I think as a mom, you, you try to do everything right. You know, when I was pregnant with my
kids, I like took my prenatal vitamins. I went to all my appointments, um, when, when I was looking for
daycares for them, like, I, you know, toward the daycares, I asked so many questions. Like, are you first
aid certified? What's your curriculum? What's your teacher to child ratio? Never once. Did I question the
quality of the water? Never once. Um, that's like something that just eats me up inside as a mom that like,
unbeknownst to me, I sent my children to a daycare center that had highly contaminated water. Um, and
the daycare didn't know either, you know, so even if I had asked the question, they wouldn't have known,
but I can't tell you like what that's done to me emotionally, that I made a choice that put my kids in harm's
way and that, you know, that's honestly, the reason why I fight so hard is for them, like, I can't undo,
what's been done in the past, but like, if I can do everything I can to make this better in the future, I will.
And if I can do anything, I can to prevent this from happening to another mom or family, like I will. Um, but
it's really robbed me of a lot of my happiness. And it's really like taken a lot away from me as a person.
Um, and that's like something I don't think people truly understand like emotionally and psychologically,
what contamination does to a family or an individual or, uh, to a community. You know, it's just, it's just,
Page 6
�it's just absolutely devastating. It feels like the ultimate betrayal, honestly. Um, and so, you know, I guess
I just, you know, talking about the human side of things and, you know, it's easy to be like with, I
advocated for this, and we got this and like, you know, I'm so proud of those things. Those things bring
me a lot of pride and joy that I've been lucky to work with community members, and we've accomplished
so much, but I, I just want people to know that it's not easy, and it's, it's life changing, and it's not for the
better, so I guess that's what all, but I guess, and one other thing just like, what keeps me going though,
and I'll just end with this is that we have seen progress, you know, a lot. Um, not only in awareness, like I
told you, no one knew what PFAS were or even heard of 'em before. Like the amount of legislation that's
passed the amount of resources. I mean, there was $10 billion put billion with a B put in the infrastructure
bill to address PFAS. Like that's huge, you know, um, a lot of money, a lot of attention, a lot of awareness,
a lot of science going on. Um, that's what gives me hope. And I just, um, wanna just keep moving
forward. Like I said, just if we can prevent this from ever happening again, make a strong example of
what's already happened and help the people who have been harmed like that. That's what we need to
do.
Danielle DeVasto: So I suspect that you can never, you mentioned before being, you know, you want to
work to help communities and people feel whole again. Um, and I suspect that after the kind of, you
know, you say betrayal that you felt and, um, the other, you know, just all the ramifications of finding out
something like this happened to your community, that you can never maybe a hundred percent be as you
were mm-hmm, but I'm just, I was curious for you or for your community, um, or people that you work
with, what do you think could be done to make you feel as whole as possible? Like what, what would that
look like for you?
Andrea Amico: I think it's a few different things. So it's having like an established medical monitoring
program that allows people to have access to healthcare, so they can monitor their health and catch any
health effects early. Like right now we don't have that. It's very fragmented. Um, so having a system in
place that will help people monitor their health, that they don't have to pay for that, you know, and if
people do suffer health effects as a result of that, they of their contamination, they should be
compensated. I think if people have lost property values, because they live in a, in an area that's
contaminated and people don't wanna buy their house now, or live there, they should be compensated for
that. Um, I think holding the polluters accountable, you know, like criminally, um, is so important, you
know, like, no, one's no one's ever apologized. Like, no one's ever said, like, we're sorry, this happened to
you. You know, like I think owning the mistakes of the past are so important. Like as much as I like to look
forward to the future and like, how do we change this and make this better? Like that past is so important
and acknowledging the mistakes, apologizing to the communities and like taking full accountability is also
another part of it. Um, absolutely cleaning up the contamination. Like it shouldn't be left in our water in our
soil and, and that's even trickier. Like it's everywhere now, it's in our food, it's in our plants, it's in our fish,
it's in the air, it's in rainwater. Like, you know, so I think being whole, again means a lot of different things,
but it comes down to like accountability, cleaning it up, um, and not putting the burden of paying for all of
Page 7
�this stuff on the communities, you know? Um, and, and whether that's paying for filtration of their water or
paying to go to see the doctor, 'cause they might have health issues or losing, you know, some folks like
in New Hampshire, um, you know, their property values went down like that's their retirement, you know
what I mean? Their home, the value of their home. Um, it's just, it touches on so many issues. And so I
think there's a lot that needs to be done to make us whole, but those are just some that pop off pop to the
top of my mind.
Danielle DeVasto: Mm-hmm those would all be excellent places to start. Mm-hmm mm-hmm even if,
maybe it's not, you know, ultimately you can't undo what, what has been done as you've said mm-hmm
so,
Andrea Amico: Yeah, and I, I just hope too, like the technology advances on how to get rid of PFAS, you
know, 'cause even at this point we can't destroy it. We can't like even incineration there's concerns with it
there. So it's like in some ways too, I'm so grateful in my community, they're filtering it from the water, and
you know, they concentrate it and right now they send it to a landfill aligned landfill, and I'm grateful that
it's leaving my community, but in the back of my mind, I'm like, we're just like taking this pollution and
moving it somewhere else. Like we're making it somebody else's problem someday. And that seems
wrong too. You know, it's like we don't even have, and then I wonder like then why do we approve new
PFAS on the market? We can't even handle the PFAS. We have, we don't even have a good
understanding of the health impacts of all the PFAS that are on the market. Like why would we add more
into the environment? You know? Um, so again, I'm just hopeful with the resources and the awareness
and the scientific interest in PFAS that we will see more advances on remediation, technology and
destruction. Um, so we're not just like picking up the pollution and moving it around instead of actually
getting rid of it. But again, all the reason we probably should have never made this stuff in the first place
'cause we can't get rid of it, you know? Um, so yeah.
Danielle DeVasto: Well thank you Andrea for taking the time to share your story today. Thank you.
Andrea Amico: Yeah. Thanks for talking with me.
Page 8
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Living with PFAS Interviews
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Devasto, Danielle
Description
An account of the resource
Beginning in 2021, the Living with PFAS interviews were recorded to gather the personal stories of individuals impacted by PFAS contamination. PFAS, or per- and polyflourinated substances, are a large group of human-made chemicals used widely since the 1940s to make coatings and products resistant to heat, oil, stains, grease, and water. They can be found in countless household items, including food packaging, non-stick cookware, stain-resistant furniture, and water-resistant clothing. These chemicals are often called “forever chemicals” because they do not break down easily, can move through soils and contaminate drinking water sources, and build up in animals, plants, and people. PFAS have been linked to increased incidences of various cancers, increased cholesterol, decreased fertility, birth defects, kidney and liver disease, and immune system suppression, and thyroid dysfunction. It is estimated that PFAS are in the drinking water of more than 200 million Americans (Andrews & Naidenko, 2020). In Michigan alone, over 280 sites have PFAS contamination exceeding maximum contamination levels for groundwater (MPART, 2024).
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2021
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Living with PFAS (project)
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Personal narrative
PFAs (Perfluorinated chemicals)
Groundwater--Pollution
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
DC-11
Format
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video/mp4
application/pdf
audio/mp3
Type
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Motion Picture
Text
Sound
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
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Identifier
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PFAS0036
Creator
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Amico, Andrea
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2023-02-10
Title
A name given to the resource
Andrea Amico, 2023 (Interview video and transcript)
Description
An account of the resource
Andrea Amico lives in Portsmouth, New Hampshire where she moved in 2007. In this interview, Andrea discusses her activism and advocacy about PFAS contamination after learning about the superfund site at the Pease Tradeport, where her husband worked and children attended daycare.
Contributor
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DeVasto, Danielle (interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Personal narrative
PFAs (Perfluorinated chemicals)
Groundwater--Pollution
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Living with PFAS (project)
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a>
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Format
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Language
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eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7249d8c3731c1a1f45b146b81389fe66.jpg
74d514c41edafc1f2b6d85850c0016b2
Dublin Core
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Title
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Naval Recognition Training Slides
Subject
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Slides
Military education
Airplanes, Military--Recognition
Warships--Recognition
World War, 1939-1945
Description
An account of the resource
Slides developed during World War II as a training tool, for top-side battle-station personnel on board ship and for all aircraft personnel, by the US Navy. In 1942 a Recognition School was established by the Navy at Ohio State University where the method of identification was developed. In 1943 the school was taken over by the US Navy. The importance of training in visual recognition of ships and aircraft became even more evident during World War II. Mistakes resulting in costly errors and loss of life led to an increased emphasis on recognition as a vital skill.
Creator
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United States. Navy
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/477">Naval recognition slides (RHC-50)</a>
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives.
Date
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2017-04-04
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a>
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image/jpg
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eng
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image
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RHC-50
Coverage
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1943-1953
Still Image
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Source
<a href="http://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/477">Naval recognition slides, RHC-50</a>
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
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RHC-50_X1476
Title
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Andrea Doria Italian OBB (old battleship)
Creator
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United States. Navy
Description
An account of the resource
Andrea Doria Italian OBB (old battleship), March 1, 1955.
Subject
The topic of the resource
United States. Navy
Military education
World War, 1939-1945
Slides
Warships--Recognition
Italy
Language
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eng
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a>
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Image
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image/jpeg
Source
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Naval recognition slides (RHC-50)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1955-03-01
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c6bbd2e9da13a89b5d241eb32d1510e6.mp4
3634fac2c1ed2c429146719ab0a304b2
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f1d02ca5bb1b90014266e24938aba82e.pdf
9b5ac7776ca6665edb8f8be94d2a43fc
PDF Text
Text
Andrews, Howards
Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
Name of War: World War II
Interviewee’s Name: Howard Andrews
Length of Interview: (39:04)
Interviewed by: James Smither
Transcribed by: Maluhia Buhlman
Interviewer: “We’re talking today with Mr. Howard Andrews of Grand Rapids, Michigan
and the interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans
History Project. Can you start us out with some background on yourself, and to begin with
where and when were you born?”
I was born in Meadville, Pennsylvania on November 1st 1926.
Interviewer: “Okay, now did you grow up in Meadville? Did you grow up there?”
Yes I did.
Interviewer: “Okay, and what did your family do for a living then?” (00:34)
My father worked on a railroad.
Interviewer: “Okay, and did he have steady work through the 30’s?”
Yes he did, one of the people who I knew did work fairly steady.
Interviewer: “Okay, do you know what kind of work he did?”
He worked on a train, on freight trains as a trainman for many years then he became a conductor.
�Andrews, Howards
Interviewer: “Okay, now how many kids were in your family?”
Two.
Interviewer: “Okay, alright and did your mother have work outside the home?”
No she didn’t.
Interviewer: “Okay and, let’s see, did you finish high school?”
Yes.
Interviewer: “Okay and when did you graduate from high school?” (1:16)
In January of 1944.
Interviewer: “Okay, and then what did you do after you graduated from high school?”
I started college.
Interviewer: “Okay, and where did you go to college?”
Allegheny College.
Interviewer: “Okay so right there in Meadville.”
In Meadville, yes.
Interviewer: “Alright, and then how long did you stay in college?”
�Andrews, Howards
Well I went for part of a year, I took accelerated courses and summer school, so I got years of
college in by the fall of ‘44, August I’d say.
Interviewer: “Alright, and now let’s see, to back up a little bit before Pearl Harbor
happened, and you were still pretty young when Pearl Harbor happened, but had you been
paying any attention to the news in the world?”
Yes.
Interviewer: “Okay so you were following the war in Europe and that kind of thing?”
Very closely.
Interviewer: “Alright, now was that just your own personal interest or did you have
teachers who were interested?” (2:21)
That was my interest.
Interviewer: “Okay, and how did you get your information?”
Newspaper primarily.
Interviewer: “Alright, okay and then how did you learn about Pearl Harbor?”
I heard it on the radio, I was in bed with the mumps, I heard the news on the radio and from then
on I had the radio on constantly.
Interviewer: “Okay, now at what point do you enter the service yourself?”
Enter the service?
�Andrews, Howards
Interviewer: “Yeah.”
I enlisted in October of ‘44 and went into active duty in November of 1944.
Interviewer: “Okay, now why did you enlist?”
Well I preferred to get in the Navy, and I knew that I would be drafted as soon as I turned 18, so
that was part of the reason too.
Interviewer: “Okay, now why did you prefer the Navy?”
I guess just the work, type of work, rather than carrying a rifle I felt better working on a ship.
Interviewer: “Okay, alright so then once you enlist and are sworn in, where do you report
for training?”
Sampson, New York, that was a Navy training center.
Interviewer: “Now what part of New York is that in?” (4:00)
It’s in the Finger Lakes area, it was on Lake Seneca.
Interviewer: “Okay, alright and what did the training there consist of?”
Well we were- It was winter when I went through a lot of the basic training there, and if you
know anything about that part of the country you get a lot of snow in the winter. So most of our
training was really by training film, we got some actual outside work but it was primarily inside.
Interviewer: “Okay, now what were they teaching you there?”
How to identify Japanese planes, how to fight a fire on a ship.
�Andrews, Howards
Interviewer: “Did they have a lot of emphasis on discipline and following orders?”
I don’t recall any, not any emphasis no.
Interviewer: “Did they teach you much about the Navy and Navy terminology and that
kind of thing?”
Yes, there was some there too.
Interviewer: “Okay, and do you remember much what kind of people were teaching you?
Were they just other Navy personnel a little bit older than you?”
Yes, they were people that had gone through the training and ended up teaching. They were not
high ranking people, they were- Well of course a lot of it was video too, most of it was video.
Interviewer: “So you were just watching movies?” (5:50)
Yeah.
Interviewer: “Okay, how long did you spend there?”
16 weeks.
Interviewer: “Okay, so by the time you’re leaving it must be spring or maybe.”
Yeah it was.
Interviewer: “Well I guess you got there very late in the year so you’re into March so
maybe not okay. After you complete the training then what happens to you?”
�Andrews, Howards
Well I went to service school right after the basic training, or boot training, and I stayed right at
Sampson. I went through electrician school.
Interviewer: “Okay, what did that consist of?”
Basic electricity, training on taking a motor apart for example, repairing a- It was just a general
electricians course.
Interviewer: “Okay, and then how long did that last?”
That was 16 weeks also.
Interviewer: “Okay, now when you’re doing this training do you get any time off? Can you
go off the base?”
Boot camp you get one day in a little town called Geneva. Once I got into the service school I
had it every weekend, in fact I went home quite a few weekends when I was in service school.
Interviewer: “Okay I guess to Meadville it wouldn’t have been too far. Were there trains
that ran that way or buses?” (7:28)
Well I think bus part way and [unintelligible] hitchhiking a lot of the time.
Interviewer: “Alright now, so roughly when do you finish the service school? Is this now
the summer or?”
Now you’re talking early summer.
Interviewer: “Right, okay so now we’re well into ‘44 at that point, or actually, or ‘45?”
It was ‘45 yeah.
�Andrews, Howards
Interviewer: “‘45 yeah so do you remember hearing about the end of the war in Europe?
For V.E day where were you?”
What was that day then?
Interviewer: “That’s like May the 8th.”
I would’ve still been in the service school, I’m sure I heard about it either then and if I had gone
home I would’ve heard it on the radio.
Interviewer: “Alright, now by the time you finish, the war in Europe is over, the war in the
Pacific is almost over, were you thinking the war might end before you got into it or did
you think it was gonna go on a lot longer?”
What they told us was that it was gonna last a lot longer, and we thought it was going to last
longer, at least for quite a while. Now once I got over there, I could see it wasn’t gonna last very
long.
Interviewer: “Yeah, well pretty quickly after you get there the war does end. Okay, but you
finish service school now and it’s gonna be the summer of ‘45, where do they send you
next?” (9:02)
Well, I went to California. Shoemaker, California where I spent about three weeks waiting for
transport overseas.
Interviewer: “Now did you know what your assignment was going to be or you’re just
going to be a replacement?”
No.
�Andrews, Howards
Interviewer: “Okay, so no idea, and where in California was Shoemaker?”
Not too far from San Francisco.
Interviewer: “Okay and did you get to go into San Francisco?”
Yes, we had to hitchhike in.
Interviewer: “So you see a little more of the country there, alright. Now, how did they get
you out to California?”
Train.
Interviewer: “Okay, and do you remember anything about that train ride?”
Yeah, I was able to get on to a regular passenger train, my dad worked on a railroad as I told you,
he got me a berth on a Pullman, now most of the guys who were going over they went into a
troop ship car.
Interviewer: “Yeah troop train, yeah.” (10:22)
Yeah, so I had a good trip over.
Interviewer: “Okay so you had it much better than usual.”
Yes.
Interviewer: “Okay, cause the troop trains would sometimes stop a lot and let other trains
go by. Now did your passenger train go pretty much straight through? Or you have to
change trains?”
�Andrews, Howards
No, no it went straight through it went on it’s regular schedule
Interviewer: “Okay alright now you go to Shoemaker, you’re there for a while and now
they’re gonna give you an assignment. So when you leave Shoemaker, what happens next?”
Well they put us on this troop ship, or I call it a troop ship, to go over further overseas into the
Pacific. It was full of sailors, like myself, that were going to be assigned once they got over
further.
Interviewer: “Okay, and where was your first stop?”
Eniwetok as far as I recall.
Interviewer: “Okay, now on your way across when you left San Francisco Bay a lot of
people talked about how everybody got sea sick. Do the people on that ship get sea sick or
not?” (11:34)
I did not and I didn’t see anybody that did get sick.
Interviewer: “So maybe a little quieter than usual getting out of there, okay. When youYou had to cross the equator to get to Eniwetok?”
No.
Interviewer: “Okay, that’s still north of the equator, alright, and was Eniwetok just a brief
stop over or did you get off there?”
No, we didn’t get off, it was just a brief stop.
Interviewer: “Okay, and then where did you go from there? You go to the Philippines next
or?”
�Andrews, Howards
I think that’s where we went to the Philippines in the Leyte Gulf.
Interviewer: “And when you got there did they have an assignment for you?”
No, not right away. Well, they didn’t tell me they did
Interviewer: “Alright, now so do you get off the ship then at Leyte?”
No we stayed on the ship, I don’t remember how long we were- Before they assigned us to the
ship, and that was a case of, you know, one person at a time.
Interviewer: “So there were different ships coming in and out of the gulf basically?”
(12:50)
Yeah.
Interviewer: “Okay, and then what ship did they assign you to?
The Vulcan
Interviewer: “Okay and what was the Vulcan?”
A repair ship.
Interviewer: “Okay and what kind of repairs would the Vulcan do?”
Well they had a shop for repairing many things, I think it repaired as large as a piece of sheet
metal in the hull, or they would repair timepieces, they could [unintelligible] repair.
Interviewer: “Okay, now would that work when you- Would the people from the ship go
�Andrews, Howards
onto other ships to do the repairs?”
Yes, they would sometimes.
Interviewer: “Okay, and did you do any of that?”
No, I was not in a repair section, the ship was divided into two, there was the repair group and
there was ship’s company. I was in ship’s company and our purpose was just to keep the ship
going.
Interviewer: “Okay, so was there much actual work for you to do?”
Besides standing watch there was no work to do.
Interviewer: “Okay, you didn’t have to fix anything?”
No.
Interviewer: “So you’re trained as an electrician but you don’t really get to use that.”
(14:18)
No, well I’ll tell you why, when I went aboard the Vulcan they didn’t need an electrician striker.
So they put me in the engine room, and after about a month they came down and said “Okay you
can go to the electricians now, or you can stay here.” and I preferred to stay in the engine room
because it was good duty, hot and noisy, but nobody bothered you. For one thing they don’t
wanna go down there, another is you control everything, hot water. So it was a good duty and I
elected to stay in the engine room.
Interviewer: “Okay, now did the ship just stay in port pretty much the whole time? Did
you stay in the harbor at Leyte or did you go other places?”
�Andrews, Howards
No, it stayed right there until we left for Okinawa.
Interviewer: “Okay now while you were in Leyte Gulf did you ever get to go ashore?”
No. Oh wait I take that back, one day they did take us over to, I don’t- I think it was some island
or something. I mean it was, not much of a liberty.
Interviewer: “They just land you on a beach somewhere and-”
That was it. Nothing there, nobody there, well I shouldn’t say that either, some of the women
came down selling straw hulaInterviewer: “Hula skirts?”
Skirts, yeah but that’s about it.
Interviewer: “So not really exciting?” (16:03)
No, no.
Interviewer: “Okay, and now were you there when the war ended? Were you at Leyte
Gulf?”
Yes.
Interviewer: “Okay, and do you remember how you heard about that? When the Japanese
surrendered, was that just announced?”
No, I think they came over the sound system on the ship.
�Andrews, Howards
Interviewer: “Okay, now before that had you heard anything about the atomic bomb?”
About what?
Interviewer: “The atomic bomb, because that was dropped a few days earlier.”
Yeah, yeah. Yeah we would get daily news.
Interviewer: “Okay, now when they announced the dropping of the bomb did that mean
anything at the time or you’re not really sure.”
I don’t think it meant- Well…I guess I’m not sure, I knew that an atomic bomb was going to be
very destructive, but I didn’t know whether they would surrender as quick as they did.
Interviewer: “Because we today tend to associate the two pretty closely, but at the time you
heard about one before the other, and wouldn’t necessarily make that connection until
afterwards.” (17:20)
It’s a lot of hollering and jumping around that night, the surrender night that was.
Interviewer: “Alright, and then how long do you think you stayed in Leyte after the
surrender? Do we have a time table?”
Yeah, do I?
Interviewer: “So when does he go to Okinawa?”
Woman: “He left Leyte on the 4th of September.”
Interviewer: “So you’re there basically about a month after the Japanese surrender, and
then you go on to Okinawa, and what did you do there?”
�Andrews, Howards
Well we were in repair ships wherever we went, and this has been mainly small ships, landing
craft type, something as large as a destroyer maybe. Now while we were there we had to leave
because they said a typhoon was coming so we left and went over to the China sea and sailed
around. We were probably gone maybe a week or two.
Interviewer: “Okay, now did you manage to stay out of the typhoon?”
Yes.
Interviewer: “Okay, because I have talked to people that had to go through that.”
Okinawa got hit real hard.
Interviewer: “Yes it was. Okay, so did you go back to Okinawa again after that?” (18:50)
Yes.
Interviewer: “Alright, and then while you were at Okinawa did you ever go on shore?”
Yes, I did.
Interviewer: “Okay, and what did you do there? What did you see there?”
Well now there was two of us [unintelligible] and here again, things are pretty well bombed
down. Now we didn’t- We were not too far from the capital, so we decided we’d go over to the
capital and take a look. So we went up and hitchhiked a ride on an Army jeep, and when we got
over there there was not much to see, and they warned us to stay on the road. There was stillThe war was over, but some of these soldiers didn’t know it, so they told us to stay on the road.
That wasn’t a very exciting day either, it was-
�Andrews, Howards
Interviewer: “Okay, now did you see anything of the civilian population there or were they
all out of the way?”
I don’t recall seeing anything, anybody there.
Interviewer: “Okay now in the capital itself have the building largely been damaged by the
fighting or were they still standing?”
You know I don’t remember too much about it, I’m not sure we even got downtown in that city.
We may have- Cause I remember seeing must of- Must have turned right around and gone back.
Interviewer: “Right okay, alright and then after that where do you go next? So after
Okinawa.” (20:43)
Well we started hitting the Japanese ports, I don’t remember anything before Hiro Wan, but we
did have a couple of stops prior to that. We had stopped at Hiro Wan for, I don’t know, several
weeks then, but that was where we got a ride over to Hiroshima. They took half the ship one day,
and the other half the second. You rode in the back of an open truck, and the first group to go
over there, half the ship, they let them loose, they got to wander around. I went over the next day,
and we just rode around in the bus- Or in the truck, I think somebody told them we shouldn’t go
there at that point.
Interviewer: “You think there are people going around picking up souvenirs?”
They did, yeah they did, but we didn’t get off the truck.
Interviewer: “What did Hiroshima look like?”
There was not much left, it was pretty bare, bare ground. I remember seeing one building,
concrete building, and that was about all as far as buildings go, their stuff was just flat.
�Andrews, Howards
Interviewer: “Alright, okay and as you’re going back and forth in Japan were you seeing
anything of the local population then or were they?”
I don’t remember seeing any in Hiroshima. Now when we first got to Kure, we didn’t see many
civilians for a day or two, but then they, after the first day, they started coming out. Not many,
trying to sell something, they were looking for money, and they had their own personal stuff that
they had for sale, silk handkerchiefs and kimonos, and that’s the way it was for quite a while
actually. It was- We just didn’t see many civilians, I don’t recall ever seeing a man of military
age in Kure, at least not for a long time. It was women and children with a few older men, we
didn’t see many civilians cause they had to walk in from somewhere else.
Interviewer: “Okay, yes because Kure was a Japanese naval base.” (23:47)
Yes.
Interviewer: “So now you had just taken that over?”
We had taken the harbor over yeah, and we were the only American ship in there the whole time
I was there, except for some of them came in for repair. Our captain, as I understand it, was the
head of that area and he was a full captain. I never saw another motor, well car or truck, all the
time I was in Kure, not a one.
Interviewer: “Okay, so the Americans didn’t have any either? Did the Americans have any
trucks?”
We didn’t see any Americans, other than the Navy people.
Interviewer: “On the ships, okay”
�Andrews, Howards
We never got out of Kure, there’s no way to get there and no place to go, like I said I never saw a
motor vehicle the whole time I was there.
Interviewer: “Okay, and there’s no town to go into or anything like that?”
We did walk to the outskirts of Kure where we saw a school and some houses but for the most
part Kure was flattened totally, bombed or burned out.
Interviewer: “Okay, now about how long do you think you stayed there?”
In Kure, about three months I think.
Interviewer: “Okay, alright and during that time did you really get to go anywhere else or
do anything else or were you just staying on the base and on the ship?” (25:45)
Just on the base really, like I said there was no way to get anywhere, I didn’t know where to go
anyways no place to go.
Interviewer: “Okay, now does- Did the Navy provide any sort of entertainment for you, I
mean did the U.S.O come through or anything like that?”
No, they built the building, it was put up before we got there actually, it was nothing but a plain
building with some picnic tables inside, and so we went and drank beer. That was the main
entertainment, drinking beer. Well we walked around the city for something to do, we went overWe could go over just about every day, we would then have watch, and so we did a lot of
walking around the city just looking, talking to anybody we’d find who would talk to us in
English.
Interviewer: “Okay, and did you find some people who could speak English?”
Yes, we did.
�Andrews, Howards
Interviewer: “And what sort of impression did you have of the Japanese people that you
met?”
Very friendly, they were willing to talk to you if they could speak English, and they were selling
their personal belongings. I bought two kimonos from a gentleman, it was his personal kimono,
and that’s what they did primarily, if anything, they sold what they had.
Interviewer: “Okay, now one of the stories that comes out a lot about the occupation was
that there were issues with things like prostitution, and people going into bars, and things
like that. Were you or, did you see any of that kind of thing?” (27:52)
Absolutely no bars, there was not such a thing as a bar or a restaurant, now prostitution was
something else. There were houses until the Navy shut them down, and then instead of central
houses, every house turned into a cat house, but no restaurants, no bars.
Interviewer: “Okay, so they were- Now did the men from your ship get into trouble? Did
they have problems with the civilians or anything like that?”
No.
Interviewer: “So reasonably well behaved. Alright, now while you’re there are you getting
much news or information about what’s happening anywhere else, or are you just- Cause
this is after the war is over so maybe there’s not too much.”
Well we did get daily news, they had a, well it was sort of like a little newspaper that would
come out, the daily news. So we could keep up with what was going on, not in detail butInterviewer: “Now, were there men from your ship that were starting to rotate home?”
Yes, yeah those older guys that had enough points would get called out and they would head for
�Andrews, Howards
home, and some of the lower point guys got taken off the ship and put on other ships to go, well
they were going do the Bemidji to do the
Interviewer: “Bikini.” [atomic test]
Bikini yeah. That was one reason why I didn’t have to go, I was at the point where I was a senior
fireman and so I stayed on the ship while some of these guys had got ratings, when I couldn’t,
they were shipped off, also I got to come home on the ship.
Interviewer: “Alright, so when does the ship leave Japan?”
Do I have that down?
Woman: “You left Kure on March 4th.”
March 4th.
Interviewer: “Okay, so March 4th, 1946, okay. Alright, now when you were sailing back
home did you stop any place along the way?” (30:40)
Stopped in Pearl Harbor.
Interviewer: “Okay, and what did you see at Pearl Harbor?”
Well there still were ships in the harbor, bombed and sunk, we were there overnight. So we
didn’t have much, we got liberty, and all we did was take a cab out to Waikiki, nothing going on
there, pretty dull. That was our liberty, it was one night.
Interviewer: “And then from Hawaii where do you go next? San francisco or somewhere
else?”
�Andrews, Howards
No, no, Panama, we came back through the canal, spent about two days in Panama in all. The
ship had money for a party, so I had a nice party, nice night club, open air nightclub, all the
booze you could drink. If you wanted a drink you’d go up to the bar and ask to get a drink and
they’d give you a bottle, that type of thing, and there- But now here again, now Panama was
wide open, I mean there wasn’t anything you couldn’t get there, and they had a lot of women just
sitting along the street, and of course the guys took advantage of it, but I guess other than that
party there wasn’t too much we did in Panama.
Interviewer: “Okay, you just went through the canal.”
Yeah, right it took a day for it to go through the canal, which gets boring after a while, you know
one canal after another, they’re pretty much the same.
Interviewer: “Okay and were you in the engine room during that time or were you up on
deck?” (33:04)
Part of it, I was on deck part of it. I know I got tired of watching the canals so I went down, took
a nap.
Interviewer: “Okay, alright so when you come out on the other side, now where are you
gonna go in the states after that?”
Brooklyn Navy yard.
Interviewer: “Okay, and when you got there did you get discharged or did you stay on duty
for a while?”
No I was on leave there for, I think about…Well several months anyway. Might have been
longer than that, do I have that down?
Woman: “It just says that you arrived in Brooklyn on the 15th of April.”
�Andrews, Howards
Oh then I was there for, May, June, July, I was there for about three months.
Interviewer: “Okay, now did you have duty there? Were you still-”
No, no, because they had the- Our ship was in for overhaul, and so when we got- They used
outside contractors for everything, we didn’t do anything on that ship at that point. We had
nothing to do but play cards and go on liberty.
Interviewer: “So you got to see New York City anyway.”
For three months, we had liberty everyday we didn’t have watch.
Interviewer: “Now did they still have U.S.O and things like that in New York City or had
they shut that stuff down now, and were there places you could go in New York City?”
(34:41)
Not that I- I didn’t see any.
Interviewer: “Okay, because during the war they had a lot of that kind of thing in places
for servicemen, but the war now had been over for years so maybe not.”
They still had them in San Francisco when we went over, but New York I didn’t see anything.
Interviewer: “Okay, well in San Francisco when you went over the war hadn’t ended yet
so- Okay, and so when do you finally get discharged?”
July 3rd, 1956
Interviewer: “Or ‘46, yeah.”
�Andrews, Howards
‘46.
Interviewer: “Alright and then after you got out of the Navy what did you do?”
Well I didn’t do anything for the rest of the summer, but I started back to school in the fall, and
well basically had three more years to get my degree.
Interviewer: “Alright, and what did you study there?”
Chemistry.
Interviewer: “And when you got your degree what did you do?”
I got a job with Electric Autolite, battery division, and I earned hauls, and I worked with batteries
for the rest of my working life. At that point it was Autolite, you know part of Autolite was
bought by Ford. So I became a Ford employee in 1961 I think? I worked at Ford until I retired.
Interviewer: “Okay, now did you, when you worked for Ford did you come to Michigan or
did you stay in New York or?” (36:40)
No, I went from Niagara Falls, I went to Toledo, then I came to Michigan. I actually moved to
Ann Arbor, but I worked in Dearborn from then on.
Interviewer: “Okay, alright now when you think back to the time you spent in the Navy,
are there other memories or things that kind of stand out in your mind that you haven’t
brought into the story yet?”
No, I guess what kind of stands out is transportation, when I was in boot camp and service
school, we used buses, trains, and [unintelligible] to get home, or go anywhere in liberty. The
trains up there, I don’t even know what railroad it was, but it was old cars and everything and it
ran late, hours you would wait for that train.
�Andrews, Howards
Interviewer: “Now did some of these still have steam engines and coal burning?”
Oh yeah, yeah everything back then I think, pretty much coal for the steam engine, diesel didn’t
come in for quite a while after that.
Interviewer: “Well I think that some of them existed but maybe that fuel was being used
for other purposes.” (38:28)
It could be yeah.
Interviewer: “Okay, now to look back at the time you spent in the Navy, how do you think
that affected you or what did you learn from it?”
I think it was a good experience with the training and everything, I think I can say that I enjoyed
it.
Interviewer: “Alright well then thank you very much for taking the time to share the story
today.”
You’re welcome.
�Andrews, Howards
�
Dublin Core
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Title
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Veterans History Project
Creator
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Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs.
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1914-
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
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Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American
Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American
Michigan--History, Military
Oral history
Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American
United States--History, Military
United States. Air Force
United States. Army
United States. Navy
Veterans
Video recordings
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Identifier
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RHC-27
Language
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eng
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a>
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
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AndrewsH2111V
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Andrews, Howard
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2017-03
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Andrews, Howard (Interview transcript and video), 2017
Description
An account of the resource
Howard Andrews was born on November 1st, 1926 in Meadville, Pennsylvania. After graduating high school in January 1944, he began taking classes at Allegheny College. In October 1944, Andrews enlisted in the Navy and reported to Sampson, New York for both basic training and electrician school. After that, he went to Shoemaker, California to be shipped overseas. He briefly stopped in Eniwetok before arriving in the Philippines in the Leyte Gulf. There, he was assigned to a repair ship called the Vulcan, where he worked in the engine room. He remained there until World War II ended. On September 4th, 1945, he went to Okinawa and stopped at other Japanese ports as well, the most memorable of which was Hiro Wan because he visited Hiroshima while he was there. After that, he stopped at Kure for about three months and set sail for home on March 4th, 1946. Andrews stopped at Pearl Harbor and went through the Panama Canal before arriving at Brooklyn Navy Yard on April 15th. He stayed there for three months on leave until he was discharged on July 3rd, 1946.
Contributor
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Smither, James (Interviewer)
Subject
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Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
United States—History, Military
Veterans
Video recordings
World War, 1939-1945—Personal narratives, American
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Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401.
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
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In Copyright
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eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7539201754518feac03e3764db193467.pdf
516a6a11a0bfcd218d7b1e9b8310e41d
PDF Text
Text
Young Lords
In Lincoln Park
Interviewee: Angel “Sal” del Rivero
Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez
Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections
Date: 7/11/2012
Biography and Description
Angel “Sal” Del Rivero was born in Mexico. In the late 1950s and early 1960s he lived in Lincoln Park on
Dayton Street. Later his family moved to the Lakeview Neighborhood near Wrigley Field, but he never
left Lincoln Park as he traveled to it daily. Mr. Rivero became one of the original members of the Young
Lords in 1959. The other original members of the Young Lords were all Puerto Rican, including Santos
Guzman who moved to Lincoln Park from Philadelphia, Benny Pérez who lived on Halsted, Fermin Pérez
(no relation to Benny), and David “Chicken Killer” Rivera whose regular job later was at a meat market.
Mr. Rivero’s father was the neighborhood barber who cut hair from their home on Fremont and Bissell
Streets, which then crossed each other where they both ended. Mr. Rivero’s brothers improvised a
roller coaster ride made from wooden fruit crates that slid down the railing of their back porch stairway,
racing down into the backyard until the crates finally hit ground on the cement pavement would glide it
on their own. It was exhilarating until the ride ended at the fence. All the neighborhood kids enjoyed it
and the Rivero kids made a mint from the nickles they charged for the rides.The first president of the
Young Lords was Joe Vicente, who had Italian features. Mr. Jiménez became the last president of several
because he was always in and out of jail. Mr. Vicente also lived in the Italian section of Lincoln Park, by
De Paul University, on Sheffield and Belden. His cousin, Johnny Trinidad had moved from New York, to
Indiana Harbor’s Steel Mill area, and then moved onto 95th and Halsted Streets. Mr. Trinidad always
�was free with his opinions, especially before, after, and when he briefly popped into meetings to watch,
but he rarely attended any full meeting, saying that he could not because he lived out of the
neighborhood. Mr. Rivero recalls these early days, noting that the fact that ethnic youth groups lived in
segregated blocks in these early days also played a big difference in their organizing. In 1959, Puerto
Ricans were still scattered throughout Lincoln Park and so the Young Lords did not begin from a
concentrated hangout but were spread out, trying to carve out their own place within Lincoln Park. For
many this meant being targeted by white ethnic youth because they had darker skin, were Puerto Rican,
or spoke Spanish. Mr. Rivero recalls the numerous stands the Young Lords made in their early days. As
more Latinos and African Americans moved into Lincoln Park, Humbolt Park, Wicker Park, and parts of
Lakeview through the 1950s and 1960s, youth began to unite more around national origins. Mr. Rivero
describes an encounter where the Young Lords, Latin Eagles, and a whole range of northside Puerto
Ricans gangs became involved. The Aristocrats were an established white gang that was led by their only
Puerto Rican member, Dulio. They had argued with a Puerto Rican family and had entered into a
primarily Puerto Rican housing project called California Terrace, located by Halsted and Barry near Clark
Streets and threw bricks through all the windows. A war involving about 400 people began and the
white Town Hall policemen hid from view. It lasted an entire week. On one of the days, the Puerto
Ricans walked down Barry Street and broke out all the car windows, from Halsted to Sheffield looking
for and challenging the Aristocrats in their own territory. On another occasion, a stuffed figure of a
person hung by the neck from electrical wires high up in the middle of the street, resembling a lynching.
The war ended when both groups met on their own and agreed to stop fighting, to avoid being arrested
by the police. Mr. Rivero recalls being one of the war counselors with Mr. Jiménez and helping to resolve
the conflict. While the Young Lords were transforming themselves into a human rights movement, Mr.
Rivero was serving in the U.S. military. When he came out most Young Lords were opposed to the
Vietnam War, although many Young Lords also served on the front lines in that war. Mr. Rivero at first
resented those who opposed the war. But after Young Lord Manuel Ramos was killed by an off duty
policeman, the entire Young Lords group reunited themselves for human rights.
�Transcript
JOSE JIMENEZ:
-- you were born?
ANGEL DEL RIVERO:
JJ:
My name is Angel.
(inaudible) [professional].
ADR: Angel del Rivero.
JJ:
Angel del Rivero. Okay.
ADR: I was born on June 9, 1948.
JJ:
Like everybody else, right? Everybody’s from 1948. Okay. If you can (inaudible)
sound, give me your name, your date of birth, and where you were born.
ADR: Okay. I was born on June the ninth, 1948. I was born in Mexico City, but I was
brought to the United States as a baby, basically as a young child.
JJ:
Any certain part of Mexico City or is that any barrio?
ADR: What part of Mexico City? The capital.
JJ:
Was there a neighborhood or something or --?
ADR: I believe it was a place called, the translation would be the three-star [00:01:00]
suburb.
JJ:
The three-star suburb. Okay.
ADR: Which was near the famous, that place where the Indian with the Mexican
Revolution that got--Hidalgo. This is where the Indian, supposedly the
appearance of the Virgin Mary that came up on his cape. That wasn’t really, I
don’t know, it wasn’t really that far from that particular community, which is not
1
�like a main boulevard. It goes down to that particular church. The only
significance about that was that it was near where I was born.
JJ:
Okay. Now is your -- what was your father’s name and mother’s name?
ADR: What was what now?
JJ:
Your father and mother’s name? What are their names?
ADR: What are they? My father was [00:02:00] by trade, he had become a cabinet
maker and he was working. My understanding is that he was one of the, at that
time, a foreman working for Zenith Corporation and the people from the Zenith
supposedly liked his work that he did and asked him to come to the United
States. So he came by himself first, then sent for the rest of the family.
JJ:
So what year did he come?
ADR: Excuse me?
JJ:
What year did he come?
ADR: Geez, that would’ve been 1949 to 1950.
JJ:
About 1950. Now his name is Angel also? Is his name the same as yours?
ADR: No, [00:03:00] his name is Carlos, was Carlos. He passed away.
JJ:
Okay. And your mom?
ADR: Susanna.
JJ:
Anna?
ADR: Excuse me?
JJ:
Susanna.
ADR: Susanna.
JJ:
Susanna. Okay. And what about siblings? How many brothers and sisters?
2
�ADR: Well, I have-- my father, prior to being married to my mother, had been
previously married-- must have gotten a divorce or I don’t know what occurred. I
have a stepsister from that marriage. And then when he married my mother, two
children were born of her: myself, and my sister. My mother had also been
married. Her husband was killed. He was a doctor, [00:04:00] from what I
understand, and there was also a daughter that was born to her. So, I have two
stepsisters older than myself. One from my mother’s side and one from my
father’s side.
JJ:
Do you know their names?
ADR: Huh?
JJ:
Do you know their names or?
ADR: Yeah, from my father’s side, Yolanda, still alive, lives in Mexico, and from my
mother’s side, Aida, which she lives here in the United States, presently lives in
the Belvidere, Illinois area. And my sister married.
JJ:
You grew up with her?
ADR: Yeah.
JJ:
Okay.
ADR: From my mother’s side, my sister stayed, was part of our family, my stepsister
was, part of the family. We grew up together. Yolanda stayed with her mother,
so she came to be part, when she was older, [00:05:00] she came to the United
States to be with us as part of the family, but she really didn’t like living here, so
she went back to Mexico. So that was many, many years ago. She has family.
JJ:
Did you mention Rosa or --?
3
�ADR: Huh?
JJ:
Did you mention Rosa? Is there a Rosa or did you have another sister or no?
ADR: I said I have three sisters.
JJ:
Okay. Did you mention, I believe--
ADR: One from my father, one from my mother, and well, for my mother, two girls,
because my younger sister, Mary.
JJ:
Was one of them called Rosa?
ADR: Rosa?
JJ:
Yeah.
ADR: (shakes head no)
JJ:
You don’t have a sister. Okay.
ADR: I don’t know.
JJ:
There’s no Rosa.
ADR: Okay. The three of them are Yolanda from my father’s side. Aida from my
mother’s side, and again, from my mother, Mary, and myself.
JJ:
Okay. Thank you. All right. [00:06:00] Okay. So now you came at, what year
did you come?
ADR: That would’ve been, oh God, I’m not sure. Either it was 1957, I think.
JJ:
Mid-fifties?
ADR: Yeah. I mean, it would’ve been around, but I’m not quite.
JJ:
Now, when you came, what was the first place that you lived at?
ADR: Okay, the first place I lived at was at the Lincoln Park, what is now known as the
Lincoln Park area, on Fullerton Avenue close to Clark.
4
�JJ:
Oh, Fullerton by Clark. You lived there?
ADR: Geneva Terrace is the street. Not Fullerton. Geneva Terrace.
JJ:
Oh, Geneva Terrace. I’m familiar with that.
ADR: Right next to, right off of Fullerton Avenue.
JJ:
And your parents were living there? [00:07:00]
ADR: Yes.
JJ:
At that time?
ADR: Then we moved for some time. We moved over to an area again, I like want to
say Arlington Street near Pulaski. We weren’t there too long and my father had
moved over there. And then we moved into, I don’t know how long that lasted. I
don’t think that lasted too long. And then we moved into the Halsted area,
Halsted-Armitage area on Fremont.
JJ:
On Fremont.
ADR: And that’s basically where the area that I ended up going was when we lived on
Fremont as a young kid.
JJ:
Okay. Now, when you lived on Fremont, is that when you went to Mulligan or --?
ADR: The what now?
JJ:
You were going to Mulligan School at that time?
ADR: Right, that would have been grammar that I was attending at that point. I mean
attending [00:08:00] Mulligan.
JJ:
Okay. So, was this south of Armitage or north of Armitage?
ADR: South of Armitage on Fremont.
JJ:
On Fremont. Okay.
5
�ADR: It was 19-- I still remember the address going back. It was 1928. The address,
the house is still standing. It’s a red, Victorian type house.
JJ:
Okay, 1928 Fremont.
ADR: Right. It’s still standing there.
JJ:
Okay. And so that’s when you first came from Mexico, you moved there.
ADR: Right when we were attending Mulligan.
JJ:
Now how old were you then?
ADR: Must have been around eight, nine years old, or I would’ve to be, no, 10 years
old.
JJ:
About 10 years old.
ADR: Yeah.
JJ:
So, what do you remember of that neighborhood then?
ADR: Well, the area was mostly, predominantly it was a white area with few [00:09:00]
Hispanics of mix. I mean, the majority I would’ve said at that time, larger group
would’ve been Puerto Ricans in that neighborhood, was a little bit larger group
than the Mexicans. We really, not that many Mexicans around that area.
Predominantly was white, Irish and Italian. Some Italians around the
neighborhood.
JJ:
And this was around 1957, 1956.
ADR: Right. That was a time that almost every corner you had just about every corner,
there was always some kind of a candy shop or candy store. Specific to the area
that I recall from that era would’ve been that the neighborhood community, you
6
�had the Boys Clubs that you tended to have [00:10:00] a storefront place and
almost-JJ:
You had a Boys Club?
ADR: -- just about every corner.
JJ:
Around Fremont? Oh, you had a little--
ADR: Well, some were in Fremont. They were located within the neighborhood. I
remember there was a Boys Club on Fremont, south of where we lived. I mean,
it would’ve been about a block south of Armitage.
JJ:
This was a Boys Club or a --?
ADR: Boy’s Club.
JJ:
I mean like the type that we have now, or you mean a club of kids? This was a
Boys Club, a regular athletic organization?
ADR: In part, it was an athletic type thing, but also for socializing. This was the time
and period where there was a lot of, that came from the area of, I want to say
[00:11:00] part of a movement, and it’s not the right word to in describing the
type, but not so much like a movement as it’s just traditionally known. But more
of, there was a lot of people in terms of creating careers that were becoming
social workers. So, it was kind of creating a social services. You had the YMCA,
you had the Boys Club, you had that type of thing with the idea of helping out -not helping (inaudible)-- to interact with the youths of the area. I know, and I’ve
been going (inaudible) what I’ve come to learn is the idea of the existence that
(inaudible)existed in Chicago, but it was sugarcoated that gangs existed during
that time. So, the social programs that existed with the idea to overcome
7
�[00:12:00] the bad results from what they would’ve considered gang activity. And
so that by having baseball games, basketball, a place where kids could go was
supposedly to overcome creating a hardcore gang members.
JJ:
So, you’re saying there was a large gang population in the area? Is that what
you--
ADR: Well, there always has, I mean, they always existed. They didn’t call them -instead of recognize them as what they were, that they were gangs, they would
refer to as clubs.
JJ:
So, this is what you mean that there were Boys Clubs everywhere?
ADR: Huh?
JJ:
This is what you mean that there were Boys Clubs because they had
clubhouses, or --?
ADR: Let me explain this way. The biggest, getting down to it, I mean, in growing older
[00:13:00] learning things, your biggest supporter of gang activity, not because
they wanted to, they thought they were doing something good -- not a good
example -- I mean, what was occurring during that time was the YMCA. YMCA
allowed the gangs to call themselves clubs, either provided to the extent that
each so-called club would’ve had a social worker working with them, sort of like a
counselor. And in reality, the counselor was there to keep an eye on the
activities of that particular group, and allowing this outlet, and instead of being
called a gang, again, repeating that they were called clubs, and it in fact never
did away with any of the gang activity that existed during those times because of
the way they implemented the programs. Part of the problem [00:14:00] that
8
�existed from doing the implementation of those particular programs was that
they’re thinking that they could suppress the fights. (telephone interruption) I was
saying the problem with their mentality was that by having these tournaments
between the clubs.
JJ:
You’re talking about the YMCA?
ADR: Exactly. I’m referring to coming back to the YMCA. Actually was a bad thing
because instead of calming down the rivalry between the clubs or the gangs, it
intensified the hatred between the groups. Because if you had a basketball
tournament, for example, it would be like Young Lords against the Playboys.
Well, you’re having a game, you’re going to lose. I mean, somebody’s got to
lose, whether it was the Playboys [00:15:00] or it was the Young. So obviously if
the Young lost, we’re pissed off at the Playboys because we lost to the Playboys.
I mean, and in the pretense to geting into a fight it created that animosity and got
even bigger. So instead of bringing them together, it wasn’t bringing groups
together. It was just making the animosity grow much stronger between the
different gangs that existed at the time.
JJ:
So, the YMCA was--
ADR: It was feeding into the fighting. So, the fighting never really, the gang fights
never really stopped in any way because of the way they did it. I mean.
JJ:
So, what you’re saying is before that there were gang fights?
ADR: Right, well, regardless what I’m saying is YMCA and its mentality and its wisdom
of the way they were looking at things, the way they see them. This is an era
that they were looking at the social programs, sociologists [00:16:00] and all
9
�these studies that were being done. I mean, I can look back that I can’t think of
all the names of all the people that did some of these studies, and I might be
even confused right now on one name that comes to mind is Skinner. And I’m
not sure Skinner is the one that did this was whether on prisons or on the area of
gangs or the socialized, the socializing of the societies or the groups, the
socializing of the different groups, how they interacted with each other. The
point is that the YMCA thought it was doing something good. They thought by,
okay, we’re going to provide a place where they can meet. They want to have a
counselor, in other words, a sponsor with each group to help them overcome the
issues. We’re going to provide them tournaments for basketball, for baseball,
thinking that all these things were great. When in effect, it was feeding into the
animosity between [00:17:00] the different groups. They even provided a
newspaper at that time where the clubs would write articles about each other
from the members saying things. But all of these things, instead of doing what
they thought they were getting accomplished, only intensified the hatred between
the groups much stronger.
JJ:
So what way would you have done it?
ADR: Huh?
JJ:
What way would you have done it? Because--
ADR: What would I have done different?
JJ:
Yeah, what you would’ve done?
ADR: What I would’ve done and what I come from that lesson, I mean have in fact I
used that is instead of separating them into their own branches, is to mix them
10
�and mixing them together within groups and bringing different people from
different-- in other words, if we were going to have a tournament is break the
Young Lords group. In other words, create new teams. That way, the identity of
the Young Lords, the identity of the Playboys, the identity of the Gaylords is
obscured. Now you had a team in there now the difference becomes the rival
[00:18:00] is nonexistent. It’s between different groups. So, the co-mixing-- the
breaking them up and co-mixing them-- you take all that away and in fact you
end up creating new friendships that evolve out of that, would’ve evolved
differently had they done that in that particular way.
JJ:
So, this new team would have a new name also? The new team would’ve had a
new name?
ADR: You remember, I got a hearing problem.
JJ:
Yeah. So, you’re mixing them up.
ADR: By mixing them up.
JJ:
Would you also give them a new name? Would you give the team a new name
too?
ADR: I’m having-JJ:
Okay, you got the Playboys and the Young Lords, you mix them up.
ADR: Right.
JJ:
For a ball team.
ADR: Right.
JJ:
Do you give the name a new name to the ball team?
11
�ADR: That would be-- that’s something that would’ve been to the choosing of the
group. I mean, in doing that, you don’t have to be so precise to honor it. In other
words, if instead [00:19:00] by simply when you mix the groups up, it really
doesn’t matter. I mean, if you could say to them, call yourselves whatever you
want to call yourselves. It really doesn’t matter. It gives them a new identity. I
mean, sure, that they’re going to pick more than the end result is that it could be
a mix of two. I mean, in some instances, some group is going to insist, we want
to be called this, or someone says, we don’t give a damn, you know, name us
whatever it is. The bottom line is that the ones that takes place, (audio cuts out)
the point is that whatever the group wanted, whether they wanted to be called it
or not, the end result is that when you have that kind of in there, the interaction
becomes differently. Because a team is a team. So, in that sense, it creates a-[00:20:00] One of the things it does, it takes away the identity of the gangs. I
mean, that’s a given. So, it’s very difficult for that rivalry to continue to exist
between the gangs. And as I said, it creates new friendship. It becomes more
difficult for fights to get started. And moving fast forward, knowing that a good
example is what I did with the Young Lords when, for example, the Black Eagles
from the north side dealing with the Latin Kings from Armitage and Halsted. This
is where I used it successfully by bringing them together, instead of having them
in there to the point that there were a number of instances where the Latin Kings
from Armitage and Halsted found themselves protecting the Latin Eagles in
places where they were been invited [00:21:00] by the Halsted Latin Kings to
12
�events. That would’ve been Saint Andrew’s -- I don’t-- I forgot Saint Teresa -- the
school you attended St. Teresa’s?
JJ:
Saint Teresa. Yeah.
ADR: All right, I remember being at a dance and there were other Latin Kings from
other branches from the city, and they knew who I was, obviously as from the
Young Lords and shit like that.
JJ:
So, one of your jobs in the Young Lords, was to work with the gang?
ADR: Well, what I’m saying is that in particular, there were other instances. One of
them that at this moment that I’m remembering is the one in St. Teresa. There
was a party, a dance, and as I said, the Latin Eagles had been invited to come to
the particular, then they showed up and they were talking. There was no
(inaudible), but the other branches, other members from other branches from the
Latin Kings were there and they wanted to, obviously as soon as they found out
that the Latin Eagles were there, wanted to jump them. [00:22:00] And the ones
from Halsted, if you recall, oh God, I can’t, one of Andre’s brothers-JJ:
Richie?
ADR: --was there.
JJ:
Richie?
ADR: Richie. But there were others too. The one that used to be the leader, I can’t
remember at the moment-JJ:
(inaudible) [Papo?]
ADR: (inaudible) Papo. The point was that they stopped him and one of the other
leaders from the Latin Eagles, Watusi, got pissed off and they basically told him,
13
�you’re not touching them. That didn’t set well with Watusi, that’s why I never got
along well with that asshole. But that proved my point. When you bring people
together, it creates a friendship and even [transcended?]. It was like, no, we’re
not going to let that happen. One of the things that we’re trying to teach is that
the fighting among ourselves had to stop. And that was, [00:23:00] I mean, to
me, I took that lesson from how the YMCA had operated and twisted it around, in
other words, did the opposite of what they were doing. And it works. And I used
it in other, in my experience, I have used it that in order to get people, that’s how
you get it. It helps also done it in organizing activities where ironically enough,
sometimes you find people coming from different areas that come into a
centralized point. I mean, in the labor movement, you might have workers
coming from-JJ:
You’re a labor organizer today.
ADR: Right. And those were in that kind of a situation of bringing people together
because people always want to be with their own groups, regardless of even
within the particular nationality. I mean, if you got [00:24:00] Irish people coming
and you got from a particular town and you got other Irish from another town, on
the surface, we might think they’re Irish, okay? To us, they’re not going to be
(inaudible). But in fact, there might be rivalry between the groups we are not
aware of. Same thing with Hispanics. I mean, if you bring Mexicans from the
state of Jalisco and you got another place, Madero and different areas, they don’t
get along. In part, if you take a look at it, again, sports plays a big deal on that.
They got the sports teams and everything else. So, if one state beat the other
14
�state, they’re going to hate each other. I mean, take a look at football, you stop
and think, I’m carrying it to another level. Internationally, people have been killed
when they’re playing soccer games because they’re so emotional about whether
the French beat the Germans or the Germans beat the English. You heard about
that rivalry that existed, that they go into riots sometimes in some [00:25:00] of
these games. And there has been at times people that have been bystanders
that have been killed. So, my point of that is that you avoid that kind of a thing by
co-mixing the groups.
JJ:
And you learned this because there was a gang problem in Lincoln Park in the
late 1950s –
ADR: Yes.
JJ:
-- and the YMCA detached worker program was working heavily in Lincoln Park.
ADR: Right. They were heavily into that.
JJ:
Lincoln Park was flooded with gangs.
ADR: Yes, it was filled with different-JJ:
What were some of the gangs?
ADR: As I said, they didn’t call them gangs. They called them clubs.
JJ:
Okay. What were some of the clubs in Lincoln Park?
ADR: But they were gangs.
JJ:
Okay. What were some of the clubs called?
ADR: You had the Black Eagles, the Paragons, you had the Flamingos, you had the -- I
take that Flamingos back. I take that back. The Flaming Arrows. The Flaming
Arrows were the ones. [00:26:00] The Flaming Arrows were the ones, which at
15
�that time we call the Hispanic Collegians because they dressed sort of like the
collegian style, as I remember. They’re your Collegians. Your Black Eagles
were the one that we all inspired to depart-JJ:
Like college. Like college.
ADR: The what?
JJ:
Collegians, you mean like college kids?
ADR: Sort of like they dress like college students.
JJ:
This was the Flaming Arrows.
ADR: Right. And we refer to them as such. We kind of, in other words, in other were
to describe the Flaming Eagles were your preppies.
JJ:
Okay. Oh, because they were more like preppies. So, what about the
Paragons? How did they dress?
ADR: Paragons and the Black Eagles were the rivals. Obviously, the Black Eagles
were there first. Paragons came in second. So, there was a rivalry between
both groups. So, they commingled with each other. There was a definite rivalry
between [00:27:00] both groups.
JJ:
So how did this rivalry play out?
ADR: The rivalry was not to the point that they would, I mean, not in an open warfare
between them, but certainly there were fights among the members themselves.
But they conducted in at that time with the mentality in the fairness. In other
words, if a member fought in, nobody would jumped in. And if your member lost,
in other words, get somebody else to take, to pick up on a fight. In other words, if
a Paragon and an Eagle got into a fight, and let’s say that the Paragon won the
16
�fight, all right, the only thing the Eagles could do is put up another member to
fight that particular Paragon. They would not jump the guy. They would not do
anything what we would consider ungentlemanly kind of thing. Another point is
there was no point we’re going to jump that guy, get him by himself or whatever.
They never did that. So, they accepted a defeat as such. And then they said the
only way they could conquer that [00:28:00] by getting another member to come
back and take the place of the member that had been defeated.
JJ:
So, there’s a different style of fighting then.
ADR: Right.
JJ:
(inaudible).
ADR: It was more-JJ:
There was a different style of gang--
ADR: More of an honor type thing that recognized.
JJ:
And this was because they were mostly of the same nationality?
ADR: In part because they were the same nationality. Predominantly Puerto Rican,
though both the Black Eagles and the Paragons had a couple of Mexican guys
that existed on them, but they were predominantly Puerto Rican. The majority of
the people -- when I say people I’m referring to the males -- wanted to become
Black Eagles. But in the end, such as ourselves, the Young Lords were created
because of the same mentality about gang activity that existed. The Black
Eagles were not about to have younger members. [00:29:00] They didn’t believe
in that. You had to be of certain age to be part. In other words, you had to be,
as I recall, 16 or 17 years old to be part of the group otherwise you would not be
17
�accepted. If you’re younger than that, you were out. You were not allowed to
come in. So that led to some degree, that helped (inaudible), it helped the
creation of how the Young Lords came to be in part. But if you asked, going
back to the particular -JJ:
The Young Lords were younger than the Black Eagles, right?
ADR: Were younger than both in age. All of them were younger in age than the Black
Eagles or the Paragons. But the creation of the Young Lords came from myself
and Orlando. In telling the story is that I was, [00:30:00] my best buddy was
really Orlando’s younger brother, Lupe. And I was the captain of all the patrol
boys in Malaga. So obviously Lupe, he had this little titles. I was the captain of
the patrol boys, and I had two lieutenants, one for what we call the north side of
the school and one for the south side of the school. Obviously, I had Lupe being
my best friend, I had him as one of my lieutenants. But what so happens is that
he got into, somebody had gotten into a fight with one of the other guys enforcing
the rules that we had. And being young kids we sometimes took things a little bit
further than needed to be. I mean, we used physical force when we did things.
Somehow Lupe had gotten into argument with one of the other patrol boys and
not following what he was supposed to be doing, [00:31:00] and the guy wanted
to jump Lupe. So, what I did at that point, when this came in, I jumped into the
fight and ended up beating the crap out of the other guy. My other patrol boy.
That led to Orlando saying -- me and Orlando did not get along. People were not
part of this. Okay. Matter of fact, I had a fight.
JJ:
He fought a lot of other people too.
18
�ADR: Yeah, I fought Orlando. When I first met him we had a fight. Sometimes I think
that happens -JJ:
I think everybody fought.
ADR: Huh?
JJ:
I think everybody fought Orlando.
ADR: I did.
JJ:
That’s the way--
ADR: First time within meeting him.
JJ:
To be his friend, you had to fight him. Would you agree or no? What do you
think?
ADR: Well, I’m not following your-JJ:
Okay. To be Orlando’s friend, that you had to fight him for him to--
ADR: When I first met him.
JJ:
To trust you. For him to trust you.
ADR: The very [00:32:00] first meeting I had with him, or when I got to know him, I can’t
remember. I mean, you’re asking (inaudible), but it was a week or a month. I
had a fight with him. That’s all I can tell you. I mean, going back in time. So, we
didn’t talk to each other. In other words, in whatever period, whether it was
months or whatever occurred, (inaudible) because of the dynamics that-- it’s
stupid, dynamics being the situation that existed, Orlando would go his way. I
would go my way. But Lupe is one of those natural things that happen when
you’re growing up. You end up, we became immediate friends. I mean, we liked
each other. We seem to have a lot of things in common. And to that degree, to
19
�me, that’s why I said we became best of buddies. That had nothing to do with
Orlando.
JJ:
Now, where did they live at? Where did Lupe and Orlando live? What street?
ADR: Well, at that time, Orlando, we got to remember something. Orlando, we were in
the same grade. But you got to remember, during [00:33:00] that time, the public
school system, you attended Catholic school system.
JJ:
I attended later. I started on the public.
ADR: On the public school system, it existed what they call, they had midyear. In other
words, in the first grade, second grade, whatever was two parts to the grade. So,
if you came in the odd part of the year, you would, stay on the B section, let’s
say, because it was the first six months, B was the second following six months.
So, if you came in, in the fall, you were part of the B group. If you started out in
the spring, in other words, when you enter the public school system, you’re part
of the A group, you went into it. They decided to eliminate, around that time
during that area, they decided to eliminate that particular system that they had.
They also had started creating the upper grade centers that existed. So, I know
that [00:34:00] upper grade center, Arnold Upper Grade Center, which was
located on Halsted, I mean on Armitage, well, actually on Burling Street, east of
Halsted and right in front of Waller, what was known then as Waller High School,
which is now called Lincoln Park School. During that time, they had rebuilt the
school that had burned down. I can’t recall how it had happened, but Arnold
Upper Grade Center, at one point during that would’ve been the early 1960s, it
burned down. They came in, built this great new school, Upper Grade Center
20
�that only served the seventh and eighth grade. Now, Orlando was in the different
group. When we had our class, we were all part of the same class, but there was
a distinction between, and the grade as we were going in, Orlando was in the, as
I would recall, would’ve been in the A group. And when they moved, they
transferred [00:35:00] him to Arnold Upper Grade Center six months before I got- before me and Lupe went in where me and Lupe were on the group behind his,
just to explain how things existed at that time. The point though, coming back in
here is that when we had the significance was this particular fight where I had
found myself defending Lupe and jumping in because I had to let Lupe do the
fighting. When he got into the fight, they were going to fight with the kids, all the
boys, we were all there standing. And he started fighting and I noticed
immediately that he was losing the fight. And I jumped in without any hesitations
and started. That’s when I started beating the crap out of the other guy.
Orlando, when he found out about it, had come over to see what had happened.
And when he found out what I had done, his whole (inaudible), in other words,
whatever [00:36:00] rivalry existed between us sort of ended right at that point
because I had defended his brother, his younger brother, and we started hanging
around together. And very rapidly, because we hung around the Armitage area,
we’re hanging around with a whole bunch of, I want to say with want of a better
word, the white kids in the neighborhood.
JJ:
So, you and Orlando were hanging out.
ADR: Right, I mean Orlando. And there was another guy named Sal [Mineo?] that was
hanging around the area. He’s the one that kind of, we began to feel sort of with
21
�the white kids, that we felt awkward with them. We really didn’t have-- I mean,
we had a lot of things in common with him. And then there was a lot of things
that we did not have in common. In other words, we felt a little bit of the
prejudice that existed, sometimes unspoken. But [00:37:00] we knew it was
there. And unlike, I don’t know about other Hispanics what I mean when I look
back at those things certainly because we were more-JJ:
Was it prejudice or what would you call it?
ADR: The what now?
JJ:
Was it a prejudice thing or was it just different nationality?
ADR: Mostly I would have to say they were mostly Irish.
JJ:
No, I’m saying, was it, you said you felt awkward. What made you feel awkward?
ADR: It’s a good question. Sometimes you just know, you feel things, what they call
the gut feeling. Okay. They didn’t have, let me put it this way. Orlando,
[00:38:00] myself, I mean, growing up, we were not the timid type individuals. I
mean, we were challenged or something would occur. Obviously, we weren’t
afraid to, whoever confronted us to fight back.
JJ:
Was Mineo the same way or --?
ADR: The what now?
JJ:
Mineo, how was he--
ADR: Mineo hung around with him. And Mineo was more knowledgeable at that point,
obviously about gangs. When I say that, it’s a nice way of saying, I mean that he
was prone to be doing things, whatever those things meant.
22
�JJ:
Because actually, I first met Mineo at Franklin school over by Sedgwick and by
Cabrini-Green. And he had a Puerto Rican gang there. So, he was already in a
gang there. And then I saw him [00:39:00] on Maud, he had another gang there
before he got together with the Young Lords.
ADR: Right, but in hanging out in here-JJ:
Is that what you mean? That he had--
ADR: Well, kind of a mix in that there were other older, a couple other individuals. We
came, what started the whole thing when we decided to create the group along
with the help of Sal Mineo, was that I got into a fight with one of the older white
kids in the neighborhood. And it was a situation where I had come up with my
bike and I’ve been riding it, and I stopped on it, and the guy was like, “Get the
fuck off the back of my ride.” And I said, “No, you’re not.” And obviously the guy
was older than me, and that led into a fight. Mineo jumped in, [00:40:00] kind of
saving my ass from getting my ass kicked pretty. I mean, I was fighting an older
guy. I wasn’t going to win the fight, obviously. But he jumped in. Orlando was
there too. So that kind of made us think, and as I said, it was a gut feeling that
we had. It wasn’t something that was openly said, but it was like we felt that we
didn’t belong there. So, we talked about it and we said we wanted to start a
group of our own. Knowing what you’re telling but it made sense that Mineo
provided the means to create the group. And then we got in touch with -- there
was Fermin. I mean, from school you had Fermin, Benny, some of the other
guys that we had gotten together and said, “Yeah, we need,” -- I know that you
came in later prior to the group.
23
�JJ:
I actually came in, I was at the first meeting.
ADR: Okay. [00:41:00] But what I mean, when we got, prior to having the first meeting,
the ones where we had gone together.
JJ:
Oh yeah. You guys were in school together.
ADR: We had gotten together.
JJ:
At that time, I was at St. Teresa’s
ADR: And gotten together. We were talking about it when they came in there. So
initially when we had gotten together with Mineo was-JJ:
I remember you guys--
ADR: Fermin, Benny, because we were in the same school we were in.
JJ:
You used to come to St. Teresa’s, which was right next door. St. Teresa’s was a
block away from Mulligan.
ADR: Well, yeah.
JJ:
You guys used to come to St. Teresa’s.
ADR: What now?
JJ:
Do you remember coming to St. Teresa’s and waving at the window?
ADR: I’ll talk about that in a minute. (laughs) But we, that’s when I said, we’re all in
public school. You were attending Catholic school at that time. So that’s what
I’m saying. Benny, Fermin, myself, Orlando -- Benny as I recall, was not in
school.
JJ:
David Rivera was there and there was his cousin, Orlando.
ADR: I don’t [00:42:00] recall. And then he’s the one that brought Gilbert.
JJ:
I remember Gilbert.
24
�ADR: Gilbert was an older guy. He hung around with a lot of the Blacks from the
Cabrini projects, and he’s the one that brought a guy over.
JJ:
He and Mineo were friends. They were from the same gang, right? That’s what
it was. They were connected.
ADR: Right. And around that time, when you had come in as part of, during that time,
we used to go out there and taunt you because we used to go in front of the
school when you were in school, and we would be calling you out when you were
at St. Teresa’s because of the way the glass is, when we’d go down to the school
to try to get you out. I don’t know if that got you in trouble or not, but I know that
we used to do that to you when you were in school. So, from that, Gilbert set up
a meeting with some Blacks. [00:43:00] They turned out to be the Cobras.
During that meeting, that particular representative came and told us about socalled facts of life about, because we created, we called ourselves at the very
beginning, we called ourselves the Egyptian Cobras.
JJ:
Egyptian Lords, the Egyptian Lords.
ADR: The Egyptian Lords.
JJ:
Yeah, because you had the Egyptian Cobras and the Vice Lords.
ADR: Okay,
JJ:
So, we tried to unite both.
ADR: You’re right. I stand corrected on that -- the Egyptian Lords, because we like the
word Lords, and we were, so we create… Now, he told us that once we became
part of the gang, we were part of the Cobras, one of their branches, were bound
to serve, supposedly for life. This is the Black mentality during that era. And that
25
�was that there were only three ways. The three reasons that you left to
[00:44:00] stop being a part of the Cobras or any of the branches was that if you
went into the service, you were up. If you’re married. And the third way is, if you
die and you got killed. Now looking back, it was obvious why they chose those
two things. The guy was married, having a family or whatever reasons. It was
no longer considered, in other words, to be part of a gang member, though they
did have, if the women submitted themselves to the group, the same rules
applied to them. But it was a total different, I think we were too young to
understand certain things at that point of what that meant to me. I realized now,
if you look back, there would’ve been prostitution because anybody, any of the
women that would’ve been coming in would basically to serve the needs of the
males and whatever means and enterprises that they would’ve had about making
money. [00:45:00] Now, I do know that when we created that, Gilbert, the one
that informed us that the Cobras was basically, for all purposes that was done
with, that wasn’t functioning anymore. I found out in the service, when I went into
the Army, what really had happened. And that was because in the service, as a
matter of fact, when I went in, there was the number of, a couple of Playboys. I
mean, I realized the guys that were coming into the service, those particular from
Chicago, were part of gangs. And in my -JJ:
Most of, (inaudible) oh, so if you were --
ADR: Yeah. And in my group -- yeah, in my squad -JJ:
They were a gang problem in Chicago, right? That’s what you’re saying.
26
�ADR: Yes. I mean, the people that when I enlisted all, and I’ll get into that, but I mean,
the point is that, going back to connect the two things that I learned. [00:46:00]
When I went in my platoon, there were a number of Blacks, not just a couple.
There were a number of Blacks, but there was two or three from the south side,
and that had been part of the Cobra gang.
JJ:
Part of the Egyptian Cobras.
ADR: Right. And one of the guys told me what had occurred that I didn’t know it at the
time, what had occurred at the prior years when we had become part of the
Cobras. All he knew was that I was a Young Lord. When he found out that I had
-- from the north side, they tended to look at us different -- but he’s the one that
told me that the Vice Lords were the ones that had basically destroyed the
Cobras. What had happened was that he said that, and it would’ve been in the
early 1960s when I was think our time, maybe 1960, [00:47:00] I don’t know if it
was 1961, 1962 or somewhere around that area. Anyway, in the south side
around 63rd Street, on a Saturday, and one of the boulevards or the street,
wherever this had occurred, the Vicers at that time was the younger group,
aggressive. That was growing up, challenging the Cobras in their territory and
the fighting that was going on. The Cobras were the older, that were into
prostitution, whatever illegal enterprises that they had, but primarily would’ve
been prostitution. And I don’t think so much because at that time, drugs was not
that, I mean, it existed, but not as heavily as it would become later.
JJ:
So they were into--
ADR: But they were into drugs, whereas the Vicers were not at that time.
27
�JJ:
But they were into an enterprise.
ADR: Cobras were already into drugs.
JJ:
No, but I’m saying they had an enterprise. They weren’t--
ADR: They had what?
JJ:
They weren’t just fighting for protection. [00:48:00] They were trying to run the
prostitution game.
ADR: Right.
JJ:
Okay.
ADR: All right. And whatever. And as I said, I don’t think the drug trades were that big,
but it existed probably the nickel and dime type business, type of business. They
were at the very level.
JJ:
So, what was the purpose of the Young Lords? Why did--
ADR: Well, the point is that when the Vice Lords in the area, I’m just trying to explain
the situation, the way it was created. The Vicers were at that time were not into
drugs. They were, I mean, obviously they wanted to be in, the thing is that they
killed three or four guys, three of the leaders, four of the leaders in daylight,
which was a big deal for that time that they shot them down and killed them on
the streets. Instead of waiting in the dark or finding some other place. They did
this in broad daylight, took down, [00:49:00] which put, obviously created a shock
for the Cobras when they got down like that. I also found out interestingly
enough, that the leader of the Cobras was actually a Puerto Rican guy. Black
Puerto Rican. I didn’t know. Yeah, that’s what he was-- I was told by the Black
guys. He said the guy, we known that he was a Puerto Rican. Actually, he was
28
�Puerto Rican, Black Puerto Rican, which you can remember Gilbert was the
same thing. We used to, at the beginning we all identified Gilbert as being Black.
But in fact, Gilbert was a Black Puerto Rican, and I don’t think, if you recall,
Gilbert didn’t see himself as Hispanic. He saw himself as a Black, if you recall.
JJ:
Right.
ADR: All right. So regardless of that, I mean, those are the things that existed during
that time. So we went, when we did (inaudible), knowing that we were no longer
part of the Cobras, we didn’t [00:50:00] know what happened. We weren’t aware
of what happened. All we know is that Cobras were no longer in existence or the
branch, whatever came down. We then decided to go on our own because we
know we could not be part of the Paragons. We could not be part of the Black
Eagles. Because they didn’t want us. That forced us to create what we said,
where we find ourselves to create our own group. And we had a meeting about
that as to what we were going to call ourselves. You were part of that along with
the Orlando, Fermin, and the rest of us. Now, the original, what you refer to as
the original Young Lords, we’re all the same age. You had also, remember, you
have Carlos, Raymond’s brother. [00:50:40]
JJ:
Okay.
ADR: Part of the, some of the other guys. But there were basically seven of us that
created the group, and we were all born on the same year. We’re months apart
from each other.
JJ:
Nineteen forty--
ADR: Nineteen forty-eight.
29
�JJ:
Nineteen forty-eight. [00:51:00]
ADR: The eight year-- we’re all in, born in 1948.
JJ:
We should have called ourselves the 48ers. (laughter) I’m just kidding.
ADR: Well, anyway, we did it up around Gray Center at night with one of the social
workers where we were, that we had met, and we decided on our name. We
came up with the name, the Young Lords.
JJ:
Who was the social worker?
ADR: Huh?
JJ:
Who was the, do you remember the social worker?
ADR: Who?
JJ:
Do you remember who the social worker was that met us there?
ADR: All we know is that we all wanted to marry her.
JJ:
Oh, it was a woman.
ADR: A woman. A girl. She was in her early twenties.
JJ:
I thought you were going to say John [Tardy?].
ADR: Not the guy that was in the room we met in. She-- we were all, we used to go
there just to go to look at her. Remember?
JJ:
I remember that now.
ADR: Remember the election of 1963 when Kennedy visited that school?
JJ:
Oh, I didn’t know that. I didn’t know that.
ADR: He did.
JJ:
Okay, so that was the Arnold Upper Grade Center.
ADR: And it was in Chicago he had visited.
30
�JJ:
The Arnold Upper Grade Center.
ADR: Right. He [00:52:00] had visited the school. I’m not sure if it was actually him or
the brother, but I know it was one of the, whether it was Robert or Kennedy
himself that visited, but it was one of the -- that I know he visited the school.
JJ:
One of the Kennedys?
ADR: Yeah. At nighttime. Not at daytime. It was during nighttime that he attended
the-JJ:
Now how did we get from, I’m going to get back to this, but how did we get -- the
neighborhood is all white, mostly white, right? How do we get all of a sudden all
these Puerto Ricans and Mexicans in there?
ADR: We were mixed. We lived in the neighborhood.
JJ:
We were mixed.
ADR: Yeah. We lived in the neighborhood with them.
JJ:
We were spread apart. We weren’t together.
ADR: I mean, different houses. It’s not like we were all together. I mean, Orlando, as I
recall, was in the same block that I lived, but he was further south of-JJ:
You were on Fremont. He was in Bissell. You were in Fremont. [00:53:00] He
was in Bissell. I was on Dayton.
ADR: Correct. I’m trying to think if he was in Fremont. Yeah, correct. I stand
corrected. You’re right. Okay. Benny was also in Bissell, but he was closer to-he lived closer to Armitage. Okay. Where Orlando had a house-JJ:
Where was Fermin? Where did Fermin live?
ADR: Fermin lived on Clifton, which I -- where later, which is West.
31
�JJ:
Okay. And Carlos [Montañez?] lived on Halsted. Halsted and Willow.
ADR: Where?
JJ:
Halsted and Willow. Okay. Carlos Montañez. So, we had all the streets
covered. We had--
ADR: Well, I mean, the point is that almost all the guys that lived within the
neighborhood, they lived in different, I mean, it was a mixed group with nobody in
there, but we were still very much the minority in that time.
JJ:
Well, because I remember a lot of them, because I mean, my mother [00:54:00]
was doing catechism classes for the--
ADR: Wait, what I’m trying to say, you didn’t have a flight, as opposed to when Blacks
moved into a neighborhood during that era. If Blacks came into a particular area,
you’d have the whites immediate leaving and masses quickly dispersing some of
the neighborhood. Armitage and Halsted, it’s a matter of fact, if you look at the
statistically, yes, it became heavily -- not heavily -- it became Hispanic, but not
predominantly Hispanic. And actually then the trend reversed itself, and then it
became white again.
JJ:
Okay. But all of a sudden it started flooding though, right? Or no, because I
remember Halsted and Dickens, that restaurant, it used to be all whites.
ADR: Correct.
JJ:
And then overnight it was all Hispanic.
ADR: No, it took years. It wasn’t really the-JJ:
It took years. [00:55:00] It took years. But it cleaned up. It became--
32
�ADR: Right. It changed. It changed gradually, and then it went back. It reversed itself
and went back. But the reality, you’re thinking about that the neighborhood never
really, now it went through a rough period, but that rough period, you have to
recognize it. What the-JJ:
Well, I think at nighttime you didn’t see too many whites in the street.
ADR: Look, I think what messed up the neighborhood.
JJ:
I mean, I remember walking through there night, I didn’t see too many, too many
whites.
ADR: What messed up the neighborhood was drugs.
JJ:
Okay.
ADR: Okay. That’s what brought-JJ:
When did that come in? When did the drugs come in?
ADR: That would’ve been in the early, the early 1970s.
JJ:
Early 1970s.
ADR: Okay.
JJ:
But we’re jumping from 1950 to 1970, so I’m trying to--
ADR: There [00:56:00] was no, that’s what I’m saying.
JJ:
In the 1960s, what was going on in the 1960s? What type of population? From
1960 to 1969.
ADR: By 1968, we’re going to go back a little bit.
JJ:
Okay.
ADR: In 1968, the area was more-- there were a lot more Hispanics, but there was
certainly no flight of whites in the area.
33
�JJ:
Not 1968, right?
ADR: There was no flight. They were there.
JJ:
Okay.
ADR: They were there. The [voting?] majority, I mean, you have to look at the whole,
you can’t just look at-JJ:
Do you not remember on Dayton and Willow and those areas?
ADR: See, you’re looking at small enclaves, if I’m using the right terminology, small
areas that existed. Because if you take a look at who ran, who was the-- not for
any other reason, but what was the color of the skin of the ward alderman?
JJ:
The alderman, McCutcheon?
ADR: Okay.
JJ:
Yeah. He was white. I mean, all of ’em were white before it was [00:57:00]
(inaudible).
ADR: All right, but the population, how do you think they were in there? And [Patty?]
was-JJ:
Only white, one of your corrupt whites.
ADR: Fine.
JJ:
Criminals.
ADR: I’m not going to dispute that they were the corrupt whites or not. But the point is
that no-JJ:
It was a white community, that’s what I’m saying. When we moved in, it was an
entirely, completely white community.
ADR: Well, I’m not trying to argue with you. I’m just trying to show systematically.
34
�JJ:
I don’t want to argue.
ADR: No, no, no.
JJ:
This is your story.
ADR: Look, one of the things that did occur, obviously what you refer to as the urban
removal of the Hispanics is that Daley succeeded, where you did have the, I’m
using the word enclaves, if I’m using it properly, that existed where those
buildings were turned down, torn down, torn. You think that happened-- that
would’ve been [00:58:00] the area of example. There were like two, three blocks
on Sheffield as you reach Lincoln Avenue. That would’ve been south of Lincoln
and Wrightwood. In other words, where you got Wrightwood, you got Sheffield
that became a park. My question to you is what buildings were there? All
buildings, housing buildings with multiple units, predominantly Hispanics, Puerto
Ricans, living on that. I take it to Halsted, which is the land where we ended up
in. Halsted the same thing, where housing buildings came down. If you take a
look at all the areas with a building, if you go back and take a look at those
places, all those buildings that were in there, where you would’ve had what you
considered to be a major -- I’m looking at back in terms of looking backwards. I
can see what occurred. And so the areas that got torn down, that [00:59:00]
became parks that became different, they were completely obliviated were areas
where you have predominantly a lot of Puerto Ricans or Hispanics where they
got rid of them. They didn’t get rid of anything else. If you go around in there,
you didn’t see masses of homes being torn down. Why?
JJ:
They didn’t tear them down.
35
�ADR: Because the whites were living in those houses.
JJ:
Right, right.
ADR: Oh, no, no.
JJ:
There were always whites there. No, I give you that.
ADR: They were the whites. They, Daley was not about the mass with the whites, with
the voters. How much is the other one?
JJ:
Puerto Ricans were not the only ones living there, but they did have a large
concentration.
ADR: Look, the point I’m trying to make is that they came in there during that time. If a
Hispanic lived in a house on a flat, in other words, the houses were what we call
flat, rental of a flat, your home is not going to get torn down.
JJ:
But I’m saying from Dayton and North Avenue to Dayton [01:00:00] and Willow.
ADR: That was different.
JJ:
That was all Puerto Rican. The whole--
ADR: Look, they needed the Boulevard, the extension of the-- my point is that if you go
back where they made the move, in other words here, you have-JJ:
You had gypsies on Burling. It was kind of each neighborhood. They had a little
grouping of people for a while. And then the whole neighborhood there were
Puerto Ricans, like everywhere, all around, all through the neighborhood. But
they were not the only ones.
ADR: You had more Puerto Ricans living on buildings.
JJ:
They increased.
36
�ADR: With these multiple units. It might’ve been like, let’s say 30, 40 apartments,
three, four story. No higher than four floors in most of these buildings. But there
were multiple units in there. So roughly in a four building that was large, might’ve
been 30, 40 units in it. And if you go back and [01:01:00] you look back, that’s
why I said, if you look at Halsted, okay, other rows would’ve been east of on
Halsted street between Armitage and Dickens, where we had the hotdog stand.
You would recall there was nothing but buildings, multiple unit buildings there.
That went down back of, take a look at the-JJ:
You’re talking about the whole block.
ADR: The whole block got knocked down with multiple units.
JJ:
Multiple units of Puerto Ricans.
ADR: Take it back up further north.
JJ:
That was where People’s Park.
ADR: There were multiple units-JJ:
Later, People’s Park later-- it became People’s Park later.
ADR: Okay. And not only that, but you take a look at in the back of the other one that
got where they had a lot of more buildings also. And then the whole area that got
taken down would’ve been by Lincoln. Lincoln over there near the hospital. That
would’ve been almost directly south of Waller High School. But there was
another area where you had that, I’m trying to [01:02:00] remember. That’s all-it’s like a park now there that had all been knocked down.
JJ:
So, wait a minute. Are you telling me that there was selectively picking certain
buildings?
37
�ADR: Yeah, he selectively was able to target the areas where you have more, if you
take a look at and recall, man, use your memory because you need to help me
out with this. Remember, let’s go back to Sheffield. Wrightwood. And you got
Lincoln Avenue. That’s a park now. That whole section, remember that all
being, all those multiple unit buildings that were there?
JJ:
Exactly. I remember.
ADR: I don’t how many blocks, three or four blocks.
JJ:
Puerto Ricans.
ADR: All Puerto Ricans.
JJ:
And there were some Hillbilly in there too, because Cisco--
ADR: It doesn’t matter. But the point is that went down.
JJ:
It was [poor, yeah, it was poor?].
ADR: Okay. If you take a look at those multiple units and all the places that existed,
they’re all gone. The only thing that never went [01:03:00] down, I mean, I’m not
saying they didn’t touch the house in certain areas, predominantly. He never
went after areas where you had houses built. I’m not saying he didn’t knock that
down on the north side. Very minimal. Okay. Very minimal that that was done.
It wasn’t done in masses. It wasn’t done--whole blocks were never, and you
can’t recall. You can’t even pinpoint to me where you would’ve had all the
owners of a particular block that had your, they had houses that got knocked
down. It didn’t exist. Didn’t happen.
JJ:
No, no. You’re correct. Because in Lincoln Park there was a lot of rehabilitation
of the houses versus trying to knock ’em down. They didn’t want to knock down
38
�that many units. But now what you’re saying that’s significant is that the units
that they were knocking down were Hispanic units.
ADR: Right.
JJ:
Is that what you’re saying? I’m not putting words in your mouth.
ADR: No, no, that’s correct. That’s exactly what I’m saying. [01:04:00] The ones that
went down were predominantly Hispanic units in there. And the urban renewal
when it was done.
JJ:
Where I lived at in Dickens, they didn’t go down. They remodeled it, but they
raised our rents and we had to move. So, it was the same thing too. But I know
what you’re saying.
ADR: Well, with the multiple units, I mean, what are the costs of the buildings when
they went back up?
JJ:
Right?
ADR: I mean, couldn’t (inaudible).
JJ:
They couldn’t. No, but they did knock those down is what I’m saying.
ADR: They weren’t, and I would correct you on that, they’re not really multiple units
using today’s terminology would’ve been a townhouse or a condominium is what
it ends up being. Big difference from what you consider to be a multiple unit.
Big, big, big difference between the two. So, you can, I mean, to me is you’re
using wrong terminology if you’re referring to these areas that were rebuilt with,
units [01:05:00] were not the kind of units that existed prior to.
JJ:
What type of units existed?
39
�ADR: They were minimized. And as I said, they were using today’s terminology, it
would’ve been what we call now condominiums or townhouses that were put
back in their places where they did this.
JJ:
They made condominiums and townhouses. But I mean, what were they before?
What were they before they were townhouses? What type of structures?
ADR: Well, we never had, remember there was no-JJ:
What type of buildings were they before they became townhouses and
condominiums, you said they were multiple units?
ADR: Multiple units on a building. It’s like the house, like the building next door to me.
Okay. I don’t know how many units, it’s got to be -- it’s three, four, three or four
floors. You’re got an apartment where maybe one bedroom type. So, I would
not be surprised if there’s 40, 50 units. [01:06:00] And that’s what I’m saying,
what it existed in the area ended where you had 40, 60 units in a building.
JJ:
Right.
ADR: And all those places got knocked down.
JJ:
And those where the Hispanics or Latinos were.
ADR: Exactly.
JJ:
Okay. Okay. So now did you have to move out at all or no?
ADR: What now?
JJ:
Did you have to move out at all, or no?
ADR: Did I?
JJ:
Did you have to move out of Lincoln Park? Were you forced out or no?
ADR: No.
40
�JJ:
Okay. You moved out.
ADR: No, I moved out because of the problems we got into. One of my parents-- I
wasn’t aware that what ended up-- now you’re moving forward into what occurred
in later years.
JJ:
Okay. No, go ahead.
ADR: Why I ended up (inaudible)? What happened was we used to steal cars. You
know that. [01:07:00] And while we weren’t aware, there was an Italian kid that
used to hang around, an older guy. We used to steal the cars for joy rides if for
no other reason. At that time, most of the time we had not grown apart at all.
We were in a different kind of a situation as what we were now then as the
Young Lords. Orlando and myself tended to drift together, always being
together. You sometimes would be with us, Fermin and Benny would always be
together. The point was that if somebody, and planning the dynamics of our, I
hate that word. I don’t explain it, but what I’m trying to say is that if somebody
saw us, they thought that we were not together. And it occurred too many times
throughout those early years because they thought [01:08:00] they didn’t see us
together other than when we had a meeting or something that we would attend
the meeting. We’d be there at the meetings, we would meet at the YMCA or
other areas where we needed to meet when we were there. But I can recall as
many times, I mean I didn’t remember Division [Pete?] trying to challenge us and
there’s other people, almost all the ones that ended up becoming our friends later
in life thought that they could take over the Young Lords because they thought
we were separate and they would come to--
41
�JJ:
They actually had a branch of the Young Lords (inaudible).
ADR: Right, I mean, because they wanted to take over becoming the president
(inaudible). And then so we, the seven of us and I always refer to this
(inaudible), but we were the ones that dictated without realizing I’m not looking
back and anything that we would say this is the way it’s going to be, but they
never saw us together. We were not hanging around together with each other.
As I said, we tended to differ apart from each other doing whatever we were
doing on a daily basis. [01:09:00] That type of thing to me led to believe that
people that came in and said, “I got an opportunity. These guys ain’t together.
I’m going to take over.” Thinking they could do that. To their surprise, any time
they would try to do that, it’s basically, “What the hell are you doing? You’re not
taking over. We’re running things. And that’s the way it is.” That meant that
most of the time, I’m not looking for any other reason, but is that Orlando ended
up beating the shit out of the guys. I mean, those things would occur when the
fight get started. Before we could say anything. Orlando didn’t hesitate, he was
like a rabbit, he’d fucking jump and beat the crap out of, you know, and that
would end the whole -- things like that, that would occur. So anyway, the thing
was that the referring to this thing about the cars in which you were talking with
the service that he had this Italian kid that was hanging around with [01:10:00]
us, older guy, and the only reason, obviously he was hanging around with us
because he knows we were using cars for joyrides. I mention that because we
used to go up to Evanston. We used to drive, I mean, we would take out a car
from the Lincoln area, we’d steal a car, go up north and then steal another car
42
�and bring it back. We never came back and said it’s not like-- we knew better
than to ride a car. We would never drive a car for more than a day. Not even a
day. I mean, if we went one destination, we would dump that car. We’re not
stupid enough because we knew the police and somebody in there that would
know about it, they might have. Even the technology that exists today didn’t exist
then, we weren’t stupid enough to take a chance that the plates of somebody
else, that the police would know about it, that there was a stolen vehicle. So,
what we would do is we would steal a shitload of vehicles. So, on a typical day
for joyriding, we might end up stealing two, three cars.
JJ:
[01:11:00] And this was a fad that was going on, right? This was like a fad. How
long did it last? This taking of cars for joyriding?
ADR: Well, remember I’m jumping into the future from going back from the early end.
When we were a little older, we ended up, we used to go to Evanston because
we ended up meeting people that we helped out on a fight, which I get later on.
JJ:
We had a branch later on, we had a branch.
ADR: You call it a branch, it really wasn’t branch, but people we had gotten to know,
they become part of the Young Lords and we didn’t really-- we went out there
because we liked the girls from the north side.
JJ:
I was going to say--
ADR: That was our motive. Our motive was the women. So, we went up there and so
we didn’t have money, not even to get on the train. We used to know how to
sneak into the train, but we didn’t want to go on trains. So, we would steal a car,
go up north, be out there with them, and on return back we would steal [01:12:00]
43
�another car and bring it back over to the neighborhood. All right. What we didn’t
know was that that guy that sometimes used to hang around wanted to know
when we were dumping the cars, they were taking those vehicles that we had
stolen and taking them into what is not what I would call it, a shop where they
would strip them and just did whatever they did with their parts. They got caught
and it would’ve been whatever it was. I know one thing I’m precise is about the
date because of when it occurred would’ve been in late February or the very
beginning of March. I take it back when that happened, because I know the date
when it occurred, because it’s something that’s a significant date, was on Friday,
the 13th when it occurred, March the 13th. And I never forgot that date. When
the guy had been picked up and [01:13:00] obviously with the day before, we
don’t know. I don’t remember when he had ended. We know that he gets picked
up. We know they come after us on the 13th, we had a gang fight that night, as a
matter of fact, with some other guys in the back of Waller. It was going to be a
gang fight. But we already had stolen a vehicle that sometimes we used to use
in gang fights to ram the other vehicles from our posts inside. And at any rate, I
got the message and somebody in there that we already knew and the word had
gone out quickly. So that time that the cops had been asking, they were looking
for us. And when I called home, my mother got on the phone and told me the
police had been over here. And obviously my father was going to be stupid
enough, was pissed off at me and said, because they already told him that they
were looking for us we were stealing cars. I wasn’t about to go home. [01:14:00]
I knew better. I mean at that point. So, Orlando, myself and the Irish guy we
44
�called, that was part of our group back then, Jerry, we call him Mad Irish. We
decided not to at that point. We said, nobody’s going home. We’re going to get
a big, we weren’t worrying about the goddamn police, we were worrying about
goddamn parents beating the shit out of us. So, we didn’t go home. And the
bottom line was that at that point, Orlando, the girl that he liked, talked him out of
it from the north side, talked him out of going with us. When we took off the
mentioning the group, these were the Cubans part of the Cuban group that had
come over the first wave of immigrants that came from Cuba when Castro had
taken over. To us, to our surprise, you got to remember these were white
skinned Cubans. [01:15:00] You couldn’t tell the blonde blue eye and all that
kind of shit. My thing here is this, they had told us that when we ran away, we
went over there to stay over there with them, that we could go to Miami with their
family down there. We told them what had happened, blah, blah, and that
bullshit. So, Orlando got talked out of it by the girl and me and Jerry decided
we’re not going. We took off. We ended up in-- we did make it all the way into
Miami. We did spend a couple of days in jail in Georgia, and that’s another story
I don’t want to at the moment, but we ended up getting picked up in Dublin,
Georgia. At the time we were minors, we were put in jail and then they let us go.
Anyway, all that was over.
JJ:
So, we were going jail all over the country. I went to jail in Saint Louis.
[01:16:00]
ADR: You want me to tell you about that?
45
�JJ:
Oh, you know about the St. Louis one too, huh? What about Saint Louis? No,
no. I want you to tell me about that. I’m sorry. We were going to jail all over the
country because I went to jail in Saint Louis, that’s what I’m saying.
ADR: You want to know about Georgia?
JJ:
Yeah. Tell me about Georgia.
ADR: Okay. What happened was that, all right, we stole a car here and we took that
vehicle. We’d had no money, really, nothing to speak of really. But like I said,
because we were trying to make it into Miami and staying with the relatives from
the people from the north side. And we ran out of money with the vehicle that we
had stolen. So, we would try to sell the tire, the spare tire and all that. We had
no money whatsoever. So, we had to dump the car. I would have to say near
Dublin, Georgia. All I know is that the town is just something that [01:17:00]
stayed in-- the name stayed with me. The town exists: Dublin, Georgia. We
were hitchhiking at that point. We started hitchhiking and we got picked up.
They saw us hitch, I mean you got to think back then we were what, 16 years old
or yeah, 16 years old. We got leather jackets and in Georgia we stood out. In
town we had these shoes with the boots like boots, shoes that we used to have
that. They used to be the style back then. Yeah.
JJ:
Boots, shoes, I remember. Yeah.
ADR: And we stood out. So, the cops picked us up.
JJ:
Half a boot.
ADR: Exactly. We get picked up and by the police in Georgia, in Dublin, Georgia. And
they took us in. And so, the story was that when they put us [01:18:00] in, they
46
�wanted to know who we were, blah, blah, blah. And me and Jerry concocted this
story. I mean, it was funny now that I looked at it. It wasn’t funny back then, but
we said we were cousins. You looking at a Latino and you’re looking at a white
where the co-mix in the races wasn’t that back in those areas, particularly in
those times. So, they’re trying to figure out how in the hell can you be cousins?
We said, “Well, our mothers are sisters. One of ’em married a Hispanic and the
other one married a white.” That’s why obviously that was believable. And what
we did is when they picked us up, we got rid of our wallets immediately. Okay.
We dumped them into the backseat of the underneath, not just with the
(inaudible) underneath the vehicle. We had the bad luck that they were changing
vehicles, they were getting vehicles at that [01:19:00] time. They picked us up
during the day, they didn’t pick us up, it wasn’t at night. It was during the day
they picked us up. So, they take us in to question us. They want to know who
we are, and they’re trying to find out. So, we’re not giving them any information.
We’re making a bogus -- we were settled on the name. We weren’t using our
real names. And as I said, when we tell them, so they’re trying to find who we
are. They don’t know. No identification, no nothing. But because they were
changing vehicles or maybe one of the police officers got wise enough, might’ve
decided to go back. What they told us is that they found, they found our wallets
because they were changing the vehicles and they took the seats out and
anyway, they found the wallet. So obviously they got two different names. They
know now we’re not related to each other. When they called Chicago, obviously
they were told those two guys are wanted by the police in Chicago. And they
47
�made the check. Obviously they would’ve called the Chicago Police Department,
wanted to find out who [01:20:00] we were. So, they find out we were wanted out
of that grand theft. They had us for grand theft. Remember they claim at that
point we had stolen 300 vehicles and chased us down. So, the police now, and
me, I always had a smart-JJ:
You’d taken 300 vehicles?
ADR: What?
JJ:
Had you taken 300 vehicles? Or were they trying to clean the records?
ADR: They had us that in the given period of time that we have been doing this, that’s
not me. And I’m not making, I’m just using the number. Whether it was
exaggerated or not, I can’t account. I think to some degree it was exaggerated. I
know that we were stealing on an average two vehicles a day, sometimes three.
Very unlikely that we end up stealing four vehicles in one day. But on average,
we were stealing two vehicles because everywhere we go, we would always
take-JJ:
How did you take ’em? How did you take the vehicle? How did you take the
vehicles? [01:21:00]
ADR: Well, we usually picked the Chevys because they were easy to break into.
JJ:
The Chevys.
ADR: They had the small window. There was a little panel window that at that time, the
design of the vehicle that we would use a screwdriver that would flip when we
stick the screwdriver, flip it. That was your job. We used to have you-JJ:
I had a job?
48
�ADR: Yeah. That was a job to break the panel because you were white. It was in
there.
JJ:
[laughter]
ADR: Yeah. You’re forget what we used to have, you were white, you were in there.
You’d go out there, get near the vehicle, walk like you were walking, stick it in
and you would pop it. You would keep walking. You would not -- yeah, exactly.
Then either me-JJ:
So, I would pop the door and ignition--
ADR: --and have the door open. But you would do it very quickly. You would pop it
and make sure that the door was open and keep walking. I mean, you would not
stand there. You would walk away from the vehicle. Once we know that the
vehicle, I mean, at that point it was open, [01:22:00] either Orlando or me would
come in. I had the screwdriver as much as Orlando, but said we would go in and
we would pop the ignition and start the vehicle immediately. Because at the
time, all you had to do was break the cylinder for the ignition and all we do is use
and twist it and that would make the connections to get the, that was whatever
the mal-- it wasn’t a malfunction. That’s the way that designed because it made
it the easiest.
JJ:
I remember popping ignitions too.
ADR: Right.(inaudible) That was easy.
JJ:
But that was done with the Chevys and Buicks you could do that.
ADR: Well, that thing ended when we would stick the thing in there, we had to break it.
All we had to do was stick it in and break it. Sometimes you would have to knock
49
�off the whole thing, that cylinder for the ignition. Sometimes you had to be
knocked out, all of it out. But if it was broken and it didn’t make the contact, we
would know that we would knock off immediately the cylinder and then stick the
screwdriver where [01:23:00] it would make some kind of, always made a contact
where you could get the vehicle started.
JJ:
But anyway, it was--
ADR: That was done within three minutes.
JJ:
And they were like two a day average. Two every day average.
ADR: Yeah. Because we were never-- we never wanted to, one of the things that we
were different and we were not stupid. What I’m trying to say is that-JJ:
But why so many? Why so many? Why so many vehicles? Why so many
vehicles?
ADR: Because we were not stupid. That’s what I’m trying to say. We were not stupid
to think that we would have a vehicle and that it was a smart thing to drive that
vehicle all day long. We knew better. So, we didn’t give a shit about how many
vehicles we stole. It didn’t matter to us. We were just using it, we were not using
it.
JJ:
How old were we? How old were we?
ADR: We had to be around sixteen years old. Fifteen, sixteen years old when we were
doing that. But as I said, the important thing-JJ:
[01:24:00] Did we ever drive these vehicles to a party--
ADR: I was the driver.
50
�JJ:
--or something like that, or anything. Well, I remember taking them to the
dances. We used to go, everybody used to show off their car at the dance. Do
you remember that or no?
ADR: Give me that again.
JJ:
I remember going to Saint Teresa’s to their dances with a stolen car. I remember
that.
ADR: We did that. We didn’t do that too often.
JJ:
Okay, all right.
ADR: There was never any need because as I said, it was a lot easier. See, one of the
things that I want to emphasize that we were, that’s what we were never picked
up by the police. I mean, we had close calls with actually getting away from the
police. Sometimes it was this where we were shot at a number of times, trying to
get away from the police in a stolen vehicle. But coming back, one of the
reasons we knew better than to drive a vehicle too long is that we did not want to
get spotted by the police and take a chance on being picked up with a stolen
vehicle. [01:25:00] So that’s why we ended up stealing so many vehicles. Not
because we were out there to break records or anything, but because we didn’t
want to get picked up by the police.
JJ:
What other things did the Young Lords do?
ADR: The what now?
JJ:
What other things did they do as a gang?
ADR: Well, at that time, I think we learned from mistakes that we made. In other
words, we didn’t like repeating the same mistake. If I’m correctly hearing your
51
�question, I mean, what other, one of the other things was the idea. For example,
when we were all picked up, not you, because again, you were in a Catholic
school. We had a gang fight at the [White Front?]. There was an Italian place,
the pizzeria that was from the, what we called the White Front, further down the
block on Halsted.
JJ:
The White Front we hung out at night, at nighttime.
ADR: No, that was during daytime, we had this fight. This was during [01:26:00]
school. And a fight -- however it got started, I know that the Black Eagles were
involved and-JJ:
They hung out. They hung out at the White Front, the Black Eagles. Everybody
had their restaurant and the Black Eagles had the White Front.
ADR: The Black Eagles hung around the White Front.
JJ:
Right.
ADR: Then the whites went to the-JJ:
Benny’s Pizzeria.
ADR: The pizzeria, whatever the name was. I don’t remember at the moment. I don’t
recall. I don’t know how the fight had gotten started, but we had gotten into the
fight and beat the crap-JJ:
But the Young Lords went into Benny’s Pizzeria.
ADR: Yeah, we had gotten into the fight. We beat the crap out of the group inside the
place. I mean, we-JJ:
Inside their own restaurant?
52
�ADR: Right. Inside their own restaurant. We had gone in. We went there and beat the
crap out of a number of the guys that were in there that were in high school and
all that. So [01:27:00] when the police showed up and they were doing an
investigation, they didn’t pick any, they weren’t able, because we all got away
from at the point that that had occurred, we all had gotten away. So, we went
back to school. This happened during lunchtime and lunchtimes were one hour
from twelve o’clock to one o’clock. So, when we got back into school, one by
one, they started calling the names of individuals where the police was with the
principal. So, then they decided to go and open up our lockers, and in the
lockers they found weapons.
JJ:
What kind of weapons?
ADR: Blackjacks, things like that. A couple of knives. From that point, we said, “No
more weapons.” What we did, the trick we used, and we even then, we didn’t
liked it yet, because they found, remember they used to have, [01:28:00] what’s
the name of the-- Maxwell Street, they used to sell knives. Remember the long,
thin knives that we used to put in here? So, when the police would pet us, they
couldn’t feel it because we put it around the grip on the pants. Well, even those,
they had found those. So, we learned-JJ:
Like switchblades or something.
ADR: Right, the switchblades. We stopped-- we stopped using it, but we started using
as a weapon and we became very well known for, that was the antenna.
JJ:
Car antennas.
53
�ADR: That’s when we started using, so we didn’t carry weapons after that it occurred.
We got busted.
JJ:
There was a fight. You were just grabbing an antenna.
ADR: Exactly. We had the antennas. We had ’em all over the place.
JJ:
Cut somebody with it or you could--
ADR: We learned the trick of how to break ’em real quickly with a, I don’t remember,
but I know it was like a one or two twist. But we’d be able to break it off
completely. Because you can’t just kind of-- remember [01:29:00] we’ve learned
how to do that. I mean, just the step of-JJ:
But also that was an element of surprise too, right? That was like a surprise to
the other person that didn’t expect you to come up with an antenna, right?
ADR: Exactly.
JJ:
Am I correct?
ADR: But I mean, it’s a weapon where we needed to have the weapon.
JJ:
But it shocked the other person. They saw you.
ADR: Right. I mean, we had the weapons to fight if we find ourselves. So, we didn’t, in
other words, we stopped worrying about having to carry a knife or anything like
that when we were confronted with another, when we would’ve a fight, and we
also learned a number of things. We knew that if we were fighting the whites, our
mentality was to always go for the face. We knew as soon as we drew blood,
they would stop the fight. We had that mentality that the whites didn’t want to get
their faces messed up. Doesn’t mean that every white was like that. But as a
general rule, if we were in a fight, we were fighting the whites, we would always
54
�go for their faces with fists, [01:30:00] whatever, we were fighting them to try to
draw blood immediately from them. We knew that they would not be able to
stand that. With the Blacks, when we would fight the Blacks, we would go for
their balls. We knew that it didn’t matter to them if we busted up their faces, they
will continue to fight. So, for them-JJ:
Were there a lot of fights with Blacks or not? Were there a lot of fights with
Blacks? African Americans.
ADR: We didn’t have too many fights with the Blacks, but we did have fights with
Blacks.
JJ:
Right. Okay.
ADR: Not as many, because we were not generally — to (inaudible), never ventured up
north. Remember that, especially during that time, they stayed in their own turf.
So, they were never really a challenge to any of us anything. But that doesn’t
mean that we were also in any way that we were afraid of them. We were never
afraid of them. And we had fights with them when if the occasion occurred that
we had a fight with them, we would fight with them. But generally fight was with
the groups within the neighborhood, [01:31:00] the Mohawk guys, the other
groups, smaller groups in there, and from other areas in the cities. We started to
branch out. But in order to get to that, typically, it wasn’t like you had a gang fight
every day. What happened with the Young Lords, what was different about the
Young Lords was that because we were the younger group, we were always
trying to prove ourselves. So that meant unknown, now looking back, we always
55
�wanted to do the most damage. So, we were more aggressive when we were in
a gang fight.
JJ:
We wanted to do the most damage, and we were all always trying to prove
ourselves. What does that mean? What does prove yourself mean?
ADR: Prove ourselves that to the Eagles and to the Paragons.
JJ:
What did we want to prove? What did we want to prove?
ADR: I heard your word, but-JJ:
Yeah, you said that we wanted to prove ourselves.
ADR: Yes.
JJ:
[01:32:00] What did we want to prove?
ADR: We wanted to prove ourselves to the Black Eagles and to the Paragons is what I
said.
JJ:
Yeah, but why?
ADR: Because we want to still in some way, maybe in our mentality we wanted to be
part of them.
JJ:
You wanted to be like them.
ADR: Exactly.
JJ:
So, they were our role models. The Paragons and the--
ADR: Correct. They were our role models that we looked up to them.
JJ:
So, we wanted to show them that we could fight like they could fight?
ADR: The what now?
JJ:
What did we want to show them? That we could fight too, or --?
56
�ADR: That we were as good as they were. We thought that they were better. As you
said, we looked up to them and we still wanted to be part of them. Other words,
the Young Lords, I don’t think that we saw ourselves that the Young Lords would
be a continuation. We didn’t-- never discussed it, never opened it. But I mean,
the point is that in proving them once, was that our role model, as you said it in
the correct word, were the Paragons and the Black Eagles. So, this [01:33:00]
idea of the fighting was always to do the most damage, proving ourselves to
them.
JJ:
What did we like about the Black Eagles? What did we like about it? What did
we like about the Black Eagles and the Paragons? What did we like about them?
ADR: The way they conducted themselves.
JJ:
How did they conduct themselves?
ADR: That’s a set (inaudible) the fight, that the honor system there were strong
physically. Women, I mean obviously because being a Black Eagle and all that,
and not only from the Hispanic women, but the other women that were running
there. So that was the whole idea as much as that thing with the Paragons.
What broke us away from that, you’re bringing into another explanation of the
time, of the area of what occurred was, involved you. We had invited, at that
time, we were in a piece with [01:34:00] the Mohawk guys, and we had invited
them to, at that time, during that area, there used to be dances every Friday.
Sometimes those dances were conducted by the Black Eagles. Sometimes the
Paragons, sometimes ourselves. We would have the dances at the YMCA and
much like the West Side Story and the whites you’d have the one group on one
57
�corner, on one side of the wall, the other group on the other side of the wall. And
that was true of the (inaudible) even. Obviously the whites did not show up in our
dance. We had the dance typically in Spanish. But if you come into the dance,
you would see the different group among Hispanic groups, the Flaming Eagles, I
mean the Flaming Arrows hanging together. In other words, the groups would
hang within each group’s that they be together. We had invited, during the peace
treaty we had with the Mohawk guys, we had invited them. [01:35:00] They
showed up to the dance.
JJ:
Who showed up?
ADR: The Flaming-- the Mohawk guys.
JJ:
Okay.
ADR: You weren’t there. That night, you were someplace else. I don’t know where
you were. Like I said, we didn’t hang. As a group we never were always
together, as I’ve tried to explain before. So, they had shown up to the dance.
We had girls from the north side. I mean, we had a whole bunch of people. It
was one of our better successful dances. Remember Ma? I forgot her last
name. That used to make up-JJ:
Mom [Aragon?].
ADR: Mom Aragon, (inaudible) Mom Aragon did the cooking, made the tacos and all
that other stuff.
JJ:
Because her son was a Young Lord.
ADR: Exactly.
JJ:
And then she wanted to--
58
�ADR: Right.
JJ:
She wanted to take care of her daughter too, because her daughter was a
Paragon or hung around with the Paragons.
ADR: Right. And anyway, the thing was that at the dance, they showed up [01:36:00]
and Paragons wanted to jump them. And we said no.
JJ:
Jump the Mohawk?
ADR: The Mohawk guys. They wanted to jump the Mohawk guys.
JJ:
Now, was the Mohawk guys Black or --?
ADR: No, when they were there, they didn’t know what was taking place.
JJ:
What nationality? What nationality was the Mohawk guys?
ADR: The what now?
JJ:
What nationality?
ADR: Whites.
JJ:
Oh, they were whites.
ADR: Okay. They were whites. Okay. I can’t pin down their complete nationality. I
don’t want to say.
JJ:
Okay. They were like from Saint Michael’s, that area.
ADR: Exactly. Yes. The Saint Michael’s area. The point is that Ralph was there. I
mean, I don’t remember people, but I know that when the thing in that we said
no, we stopped the Paragons. And that pissed him off when they were told, “No,
you’re not going to do that.” And Orlando had basically told [01:37:00] them to
get the fuck out. And obviously that pissed him even more. They left. Unknown
59
�to us they returned to the hotdog stand. You show up by yourself, I mean, no big
deal like anything else, and they jumped you.
JJ:
I was president at that time. That was when I was president of the group.
ADR: Well, you went in there, you didn’t know what-JJ:
I’m saying I was president of the group at that time.
ADR: They were what?
JJ:
I was the president at that time of the group.
ADR: I don’t recall that.
JJ:
Yeah, I was the president. That’s why they wanted to get me at that point.
ADR: I don’t remember either. I know you got jumped and-JJ:
No, I didn’t get jumped. Well, they wanted to jump me, but again, they were that
respectful type. So, it was one person, Toothpick, that [stole?] on me. In other
words, [01:38:00] he [stole?].
ADR: It was Crazy Johnny?
JJ:
Toothpick, he stole on me. In other words, I didn’t know where the puncher was.
Well, he stole, stole on me. And then the other people got in the middle of it to
stop the fights. They stopped the fights.
ADR: But anyway, we heard about it when we were told, I don’t know how. We got
told.
JJ:
But he stole on me. The other people stopped the fight. And then we didn’t fight.
And I think that that’s what Orlando got mad about.
ADR: Well, what happened was, I don’t know, I mean, is that when we left, we left
immediately when we found out what had taken place, we ran back over to,
60
�literally, we were running from all the way from the, because we didn’t have no
vehicles. It’s not like we had cars back then. We ran all the way back-JJ:
From Isham YMCA and--
ADR: From YMCA over to the hotdog stand.
JJ:
North Avenue and [Larrabee?] to--
ADR: Right. And when we showed up, we were there. The one that stopped the fight,
in my perspective, when the gang fight was about to get started, we showed
[01:39:00] up and we were going to start fighting with the Paragons. Raymond
Montañez, Carlos’s brother-JJ:
Was a Paragons.
ADR: --interfered because he was part of the Flaming Arrows.
JJ:
Was he Flaming Arrows?
ADR: Yeah, he was a Flaming Arrow.
JJ:
Okay.
ADR: He stopped it and he said, no. He says, because we all always, this is not good.
So, he said, “Why don’t you guys have a fight? One guy from each side. So,
Orlando immediately, there was no question he was going to be representing our
side. Crazy Johnny--they thought he was going to beat the crap out of Orlando
because Crazy Johnny had that name Crazy Johnny. And he was physically
built a hell of a lot better than he started fighting Orlando. Don’t ask me how he
did it, but within a couple of punches, he actually knocked down Crazy Johnny
and he was going to end it there, but [01:40:00] they pulled him back. They said,
it’s a fair fight. Johnny gets up again, starts fighting, knocked him down again.
61
�All right. At that point, it was like it ended, so they wanted to put another guy.
Another guy was put to fight Orlando. Orlando took out, as I recall, Orlando must
have beat the shit out of three or four of the Paragons that night. Never once -- I
mean, I’m not saying he didn’t take punches, but in all the fighting in there, he
took them down. Okay, when that happened, at that point, and I have
perspective, we all realized, it’s like at that precise moment what Orlando had
done, we had grown up. That’s when we said, “We don’t need the Black Eagles.
We don’t need the Paragons. We’re better than they are.” And that’s when we
decided to leave the neighborhood.
JJ:
And we went to--
ADR: Old Town.
JJ:
--(inaudible) and North Avenue where we had another branch. We had another
branch. But I remember [01:41:00] that I went home that night and in the
morning you guys came and picked me up in the morning and took me out of
bed. Said hello to my mother, Orlando said hello to my mother because Orlando
had been in her catechism class and so he knew my mother very well. Plus we
would stay at each other’s houses. We didn’t live that far. And then I could
believe you were with him or something like that. My face was all swollen from
being stole. And I had told my mother I had fell down, but Orlando said that he
wanted to talk to me. So my mother went to the bedroom and then Orlando said,
“Let’s go.” In other words, we’re going to fight these people. So, it actually
wasn’t at night. It was during the morning that we fought.
ADR: The what now?
62
�JJ:
It was the next morning that we fought that Orlando fought all those people.
ADR: No, it was at nighttime.
JJ:
At nighttime too?
ADR: It was at nighttime. No, it was at nighttime. That fight took place with Orlando. It
took that night. It was that night. Oh, it was [01:42:00] night. I’m 100% sure.
JJ:
It was at night.
ADR: It was at nighttime. But at that dance that said, we showed up.
JJ:
I must have been. I must have--
ADR: That’s what I’m saying, you may not remember you got your butt beaten?
JJ:
No, no. He picked me up and told me I had a fight.
ADR: What I can’t remember-JJ:
He told me I had to fight him. And so I went to get ready to fight him. And then
he interfered. He went--
ADR: No, it was at night.
JJ:
No, that was in the morning.
ADR: Night.
JJ:
It happened again. It happened again in the morning then.
ADR: Well, if it happened in the morning either, I don’t remember that. I mean, I don’t
remember at the moment.
JJ:
He got me out of bed--
ADR: But I know that that night was at nighttime he took. And actually I thought there
was more than four guys.
JJ:
I don’t remember that. So, it had to be a different thing, a different incident.
63
�ADR: But no, and then I’m positive-JJ:
The same incident, but different ending.
ADR: Right, because like I said, we were going to, I don’t remember if you were there.
I don’t remember. That’s what I’m saying. I don’t remember that you were there
when Orlando was fighting, right? We had come in, we were getting ready to
fight. We were getting ready-JJ:
Was major. It was major.
ADR: And [01:43:00] Raymond was the one that stopped us. Raymond basically got
between the group. He says, you guys can’t do that. The urge is not to fight. He
says, you guys, he said, we can’t do this. And then he said he the one making
the suggestion, had one representative from each site. And there was no doubt
it was going to, Orlando wasn’t going to let any of us fight. Okay. I mean,
whoever it was going to be was going to take him out. And as I said, it was
Crazy Johnny, the fact that he beat Crazy Johnny, really, Orlando’s, in terms of a
fighter, went way up when he did it twice. He didn’t do it once, he didn’t do it
once. He did it twice. Okay. And I can tell you, because I never forgot. I might
forget certain things in my life or things like that, but there’s certain things that
stay imbedded in your brain that make it difficult. I know that he knocked them
down and very rapidly, it wasn’t something that was in the fight. [01:44:00]
Within the punches, they started getting thrown out very rapid, Orlando, don’t ask
him how he did it. Hit him, hit him square on the jaw, knocked him down. I
mean, Johnny went down. And at that point, it was like everybody was surprised.
I mean, a lot of people couldn’t believe what had happened. Toothpick wanted to
64
�jump, wanted in. They said no. And anybody’s going back and we said, this is a
fair fight. We were prepared, I mean if anybody would’ve broken up, we had a
full gang fight right on the spot. Then he allowed Johnny to get up and Johnny
was like-- I don’t remember. He made an excuse that he slipped or whatever. It
didn’t matter whether he slipped or not. He gets up again, starts to fight Orlando,
knocked him down. I’m not talking a punching, I’m talking an actual knockdown.
Knocked them down. I don’t know if it was in the same side of the face or the
other side of the face, but he knocked them down. Then they put up another
guy. He took down four guys, four Paragons. [01:45:00] They all went down.
Okay. What I’m saying, I don’t mean physically that he knocked him down, but
enough where he was beating the crap out of them, they would’ve to pull the guy
out and put another guy out. Okay. My recollection was Johnny was the only
one that got knocked down.
JJ:
All right, so what other battle do you remember?
ADR: Orlando’s?
JJ:
No, no, no. Just a battle in the neighborhood of fights.
ADR: There’s a whole bunch of them. Shit-JJ:
Give me another one. Give me another one.
ADR: Well, that particular, the other one would’ve been the night-- I mean, going back
that I was talking about when we found out about the stolen vehicles, we had a
stolen vehicle and we were really-JJ:
Let’s do a different one. We already talked about stolen vehicles.
65
�ADR: But there was the other one where when we were fighting with the Mohawks, for
example.
JJ:
What about the Aristocrats? What about that?
ADR: The Aristocrats would’ve been the one where we, they would’ve been with Rory.
[01:46:00] I mean, Rory comes to mind because something had happened. He
had moved by the Ogden area where it was predominantly Italian at that time.
Near the, what the Kennedy, in other words, the section that comes into Ohio or
Grand Avenue. I forgot from the highway where the guy got killed that night.
You got picked up that night. You went to jail that night from that gang fight.
JJ:
Oh, the Gaylords.
ADR: But the guy that got shot with the zip gun.
JJ:
That was the Gaylords, the Gaylords neighborhood.
ADR: I don’t, it was the Gaylords, that’s, I don’t remember the name. I know we had a
plan. The plan was after the whole thing had occurred that we went, because it
involved the Paragons in that fight. The fight got started with Rory. They had to
do something with Rory, and we decided we’re going to have a fight. There had
been a meeting already ahead of time [01:47:00] that how the fight was going to
be conducted. To avoid distraction one of the tactics we use is that it would be a
group of us to cross the highway. In other words, you got the (inaudible), I’m
trying to think, the Ohio (inaudible), I might be mistaken on the-JJ:
That was Grand, by Grand--
ADR: The ramp that comes in to-JJ:
Milwaukee. By Milwaukee.
66
�ADR: Yeah, exactly. But it crosses -JJ:
Noble and --
ADR: Right. But that’s when you’re coming in the (inaudible) when you’re going into
downtown from the north side, the extension that goes in at this-JJ:
Milwaukee Avenue. Milwaukee Avenue. Noble Street, Chicago.
ADR: No, I’m talking from the highway.
JJ:
Chicago Avenue.
ADR: When it goes straight into the city, the first street, when it comes into the street,
it’s going to be Orleans Street. That ramp.
JJ:
Oh, Congress. Congress. That’s Congress, (inaudible), right around there.
ADR: That’s the one we crossed because it was during that. There’s that trend where
Ogden Avenue, [01:48:00] you do have Milwaukee and some of those areas.
But in that area in there, we wanted them to think that we were going to be
attacking them to this particular area, and we wanted to create the commotion
with the police and everything else to draw ’em away from the area because we
knew where they were actually at and that’s where they were going to get hit.
But (inaudible) in other words, we were going to the group with the whole idea,
crossing the highway, causing the commotion to attract the group towards that
area. The police, they’re thinking, this is where the fight is going on. We was
actually taking ’em away from, we intended to jump or where we were going to
have the battle with where we knew that, where they were at. Unfortunately,
what ended up happening-JJ:
What was the battle about?
67
�ADR: It had to do with Rory. It had to do something that occurred with Rory getting
jumped or something that whatever, that okay.
JJ:
He got jumped and then he came and got some people.
ADR: Right. And then it grew into a bigger fight. What the groups that were being
involved, that was the kind of fight that-JJ:
I was in jail that time, [01:49:00] me and Hector, me and some of the Paragons
went to, because that time the Paragons and the Young Lords were fighting
together on the same side.
ADR: Yeah. Well, most of the fighting involved, some of the-JJ:
We were on the same side for that one.
ADR: Well, yes, most of the time-- what you’re forgetting is that a lot of those fights are
always involved more than one group. They were smaller groups. I mean,
you’re talking to the north side. You had the-- momentarily forgetting the Red
Rooster. We had another group of a couple of groups that existed in there. And
there were other smaller groups that said there was a lot of different groups like
your corner street guys. Some of ’em would’ve names, some would not. So
sometimes when fights would get started, it would involve in the bigger fights.
There were alliances. We acted no different from gang activity than matched the
way in the, I would want to say the medieval times where different leaders would
[01:50:00] come together, monarchs or dukes or lords. And we had their groups
come immersed to find a common enemy or that common enemy making
alliances with other groups to fight another group.
JJ:
So, the clubs, clubs were making alliances all the time.
68
�ADR: Sometimes not all the time, depending on what the interests were and how these
fights created. That example is like with the Red Rooster guys. They had a
name, I forgot the name momentarily, that was dealt by Mineo, or Sal. Sal was
Puerto Rican and you had a Mexican guy, forgot his name. And the funny part
about it, the Mexican guy led the Puerto Rican group to hang around the same
thing. They were more like motorcycle guys, guess in that style, remember?
There were actually two groups within that they hung in the Red Rooster. And
the funny part about it was that the Mexican guy was leading the Puerto Ricans
and the Puerto Rican was leading the Hillbillies. They hung around together.
Many became a younger, but many used [01:51:00] to, when they had that fight,
they asked our help. That’s how we got involved in that fight. Because they
were fighting the guys further up north from the Belmont area. They had hung a
[figini?], is that correct word? [figini?] of a Puerto Rican with a noose on the
neck, on a pole. You should remember that because it involved you and another
story that you’re not too crazy about.
JJ:
Tell me about it.
ADR: But that particular fight, when we went to help them.
JJ:
So, they had a Puerto Rican with the noose?
ADR: Right, and they hung it by school in front of the, on a pole near-- that school is
gone. They knocked it down. It’s where the hospital -JJ:
So, it was like a caricature.
ADR: It was hanging off of a-JJ:
A caricature, somebody like one of those--
69
�ADR: Claiming this is what we’re going to do to the Puerto Ricans.
JJ:
Okay. And you hung and it was a noose around the neck.
ADR: Right.
JJ:
Tied to the light pole. Is that what it is?
ADR: The light post, right. It was hanging the head hanging [01:52:00] there.
JJ:
And this was on Berry Street.
ADR: Guzmán at that time was hanging around-JJ:
Berry Street by--
ADR: Berry, right. Okay, got it. Yeah, you’re correct. Guzmán at that time was always
trying to play the-JJ:
Between Halsted and Sheffield and Berry.
ADR: Correct. And Guzmán always wanted to be trying to be the leader of the Young
Lords. We never let him be.
JJ:
Santos Guzmán.
ADR: Guzmán.
JJ:
Santos Guzmán. That was his name.
ADR: What?
JJ:
Santo Guzmán.
ADR: Santos Guzmán. Santos. Santos was heavyset wrestler. Big guy. I had a fight
with him.
JJ:
He came from Philadelphia. He moved to Chicago from Philadelphia.
ADR: He moved to-JJ:
He was from Philadelphia, but he became a Young Lord.
70
�ADR: Well, we became, during that time, he’s the one that-- he was bullshitting. What
I’m saying is, I mean in the aftermath okay.
JJ:
You didn’t get along. [01:53:00] You and him. That’s what you’re saying. You
and him didn’t--
ADR: A problem there.
JJ:
I got along with him.
ADR: Well, the thing was that when we had this thing in it, okay, Mineo, I mean Sal, not
Sal Mineo the one we know, okay. Sal came over to us and said, we need some
help. And we said, okay, we’re going to help you out. We’ll help you out on the
fight. We also got involved the Paragons and the Eagles on this particular fight.
JJ:
But wasn’t the fight--weren’t they threatening the family?
ADR: Well, I’m getting to that. What happened was we went to, oh, that’s at the time
we had the white guy that was leading. There was another (inaudible). There
were two occasions. We had Miller and we had this other white guy that led the
Young Lords. The point is that we go on the vehicle to where they were going to
show us where the thing was hanging. The [figini?] of the Puerto [01:54:00]
Rican hanging from the post. And we had gone in there to kind of survey, see
what we were up against and all that.
JJ:
Who’s we?
ADR: So-JJ:
Who is we?
ADR: Hmm?
JJ:
Who went in there?
71
�ADR: The what?
JJ:
Who is we?
ADR: There was six of us. You, Orlando, myself, Guzmán, the white guy, Benny. That
would’ve been it. There was like six of us. Six, seven guys went, because we
weren’t loaded or anything. We went (inaudible). And so when we got there to
Berry Street, we came in from Halsted and we walked because we wanted to go
what we could find. And we were prepared for a fight. We had picked up some
antennas. We had already broken the antennas and some sticks that we had on
our hands as we were walking towards the front, whereas we were going in there
to try [01:55:00] to find what we could find. That particular night, we knew that
that wasn’t going to be the complete gang fight at that time, but we just wanted to
see what we were up against. As we came up on the corner, Santos went ahead
of us running, like trying to be the badass. He went around the corner and
comes back as quickly, turns around and comes back running and he’s yelling,
“The police. The police.” At that point, guys started running. You went up on the
fence, started climbing. I didn’t know you were doing that, the link fence. You’re
climbing a link fence. The only thing I could do at that moment as it had
occurred, I didn’t even have time to run or anything. I dropped my weapon to the
side of the curb. And for some instance, instinct, I put my hands in my pockets
and kept walking towards making ’em think like-- I don’t, [01:56:00] because I’m
thinking what’s going to turn around is going to be the police. So, if they see me
there with no weapon or nothing, they’re not going to-- quickly, in my mind,
they’re not going to do anything to me. But to my great surprise, turn around and
72
�I see all these fucking (inaudible) with chains in their pants on their hands going
around. But good thing I had my hands in my pocket. So, they come by me
down there. So, I didn’t even have a chance of running or anything. You’re
climbing and they’re pulling you down.
JJ:
I think they hit me with a brick. They hit me with a brick and a tire iron.
ADR: Well, this all happened at the same time. Remember, I’m not watching you.
JJ:
They hit my back and well, I released my hands and fell down.
ADR: But you’re yelling. The one thing I never forget.
JJ:
I was yelling.
ADR: You’re yelling. (laughter) I’m a Polack, I’m a Polack.
JJ:
No, no, because--
ADR: I’m no goddamn Puerto Rican. I’m Polack.
JJ:
No, no, because what he said was, [01:57:00] “We’re looking for Puerto Ricans,”
and you said, “I’m Mexican.”
ADR: Right, I mean, that’s what I’m saying. But I’m hearing you what I’m telling you,
like you (inaudible). Well, when he sat in there-JJ:
I said, well, I’m a Polack then. And you were laughing. But they didn’t say we
we’re looking for Mexicans. Yeah, when I said, when you going there we’re
looking for Puerto Ricans, and you said, I’m Mexican. And all I could say was,
oh, well. And I saw they didn’t do nothing to you. I said, well I’m Polack.
ADR: All I remember is when-JJ:
I was not going to tell ’em I’m Puerto Rican and they’re looking for Puerto Rican.
ADR: You said you were-- remember that? That I do, I remember.
73
�JJ:
So, after that, what happened after that?
ADR: Well, the point was, when they come up against me, I said, the thing going on, I
know that they’re pulling it from the side of my eye. They were pulling.
JJ:
They were ready to kick my butt. I’m a Polack.
ADR: But anyway, the guy, when he said, when he’s looking says they thought
[01:58:00] I was Puerto Rican. I said, “No, I’m fucking, I’m Mexican.” The girl,
they had a girl with ’em, or maybe two, I don’t remember, but I know they
definitely, and she says, “Speak Spanish.” So, I’m like, (Spanish) [01:58:13], you
know, I said something in Spanish and right away she says, “Yeah, he’s
Mexican.” She recognized my accent. So, they didn’t know what to do with me.
They got you but we were smart enough not to say anything to each other. So,
they grabbed you and they grabbed me and they said, okay. We didn’t know
where they were taking us, but obviously we were now prisoners.
JJ:
Right. And they took us underneath the sidewalk.
ADR: They went into, there was a building next to the -- and they took us into a
basement. They had a German Shepherd in the basement.
JJ:
That’s where they used to keep the coal at that time, they used to heat the coal
for heating.
ADR: Well, whatever it was. And they put us in there. And then we knew, we kind of
sensed that they were watching us. We never spoke [01:59:00] with each other.
You’re sitting there and I ignore you. You were ignoring me. We weren’t saying
nothing to each other. And after a while, I don’t know if they must’ve kept us,
maybe a half hour, 45 minutes, they come back and they said, “Get the fuck out
74
�of here. Go home, whatever.” We left. And to their surprise, when we had what
we called the war meeting, we decided the neutral point was the Benny’s
Pizzeria. So, then they said, they agreed that through words had gone back,
decide how we were going to conduct a fight that we met at Benny’s Pizzeria. To
the surprise of the leader. Because I was like, you were not there. I’m the one
had to go in there. And the guy fucking, you didn’t want to go. I went in there
and he says, “You motherfucker.” He says, I said, “Too bad motherfuckers, too
late.” That I had, when we said that we agreed what weapons we were going to
use in the gang fight.
JJ:
[02:00:00] I thought I was there. I thought I was there. The next day. I was
there. The next day I did go, because I remember him saying you--
ADR: And when I said, we talked about what weapons, we basically, it was a free for
all. The only thing we said, we didn’t want there not to use any slip gun.
JJ:
You got to remember that. That was when I was president of the group.
ADR: No, you weren’t. Not at that point, you were not, Cha-Cha. You were a war-- like
I said, me and you never held, we never wanted the position. We were always
the warlords. You and me were the warlords. We were never, we were the
warlords.
JJ:
Right. But later on, I became president. That was--
ADR: That would’ve been the only time you took the, when you became chairman.
JJ:
No, after (inaudible), I became the president.
ADR: Never wanted it. Neither one of us.
JJ:
No, no. Orlando didn’t want it. I was president, so I was the president.
75
�ADR: I know that none of us wanted the leadership.
JJ:
When it changed [02:01:00] I was the president.
ADR: Look, none of us.
JJ:
Oh, you were in the service.
ADR: Orlando didn’t want it. I didn’t want it.
JJ:
No, no, no. That’s when you were in the service that--
ADR: I was gone. That might have been true.
JJ:
Yeah. That’s when you were in the service.
ADR: But before I left for the service, you were never-JJ:
I was president of the gang when we changed over.
ADR: That might’ve been after I was gone.
JJ:
And then you came afterwards.
ADR: Right. But not during the time in there, Orlando, because as I know Orlando
didn’t want it. I didn’t want it.
JJ:
You were angry because by that time, we were against the war and all that other
stuff, and you had just come out of the service. So, you were angry.
ADR: But that’s when you came, during our gang years, you and me were the warlords.
JJ:
Yeah, exactly. We were the warlords. Yeah.
ADR: Okay. We were the ones that would sit down with the opposing side, and we
never, I just used the word with theJJ:
At that time, the gangs were like, what’s that story? We would sit and meet and
decide how we were going to fight and all that other stuff.
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�ADR: Basically [02:02:00] that really, when you look back, everything was okay. The
only thing, the emphasis was not to use guns.
JJ:
Right. Right.
ADR: I used to be the (inaudible) not to use guns.
JJ:
Knives were okay.
ADR: Right. I mean, it’s a lot different and none of that. But at that time, the deal was
not, they were agreeing not to use guns.
JJ:
Correct. Well, there weren’t that many guns used at that time.
ADR: Obviously. Okay. So, the plan was, at that point, after we did the negotiate, not
negotiations, that we’d settled on what was going to happen. Then the fight was
to be conducted that particular night, and the fight was going to get going. So,
we all went back to our areas. What we decided to do as a group, I’m not saying
nobody took the lead in there, that we would send a group-- from the house
(inaudible) there used to be all Hispanics. That building’s still standing, like a
drive-in-JJ:
On the corner. That’s where -- [02:03:00]
ADR: The corner of Halsted.
JJ:
That’s where the Aristocrats had gone.
ADR: Clark.
JJ:
Right, right, right.
ADR: That corner right here. We met there. We had everybody in there and we told
the young kids, the younger ones, you will come down, go down Berry, the same
street that street Berry Street, and break all the windshields of all the vehicles.
77
�Go run down there, breaking all the windshields. Right. We then, that was a
Mineo-JJ:
That was a long street.
ADR: Right. And they would run, come running to-- on Sheffield we had group, a
couple of vehicles to the side waiting to come down. Is that what we’re trying to
do is push ’em. In other words, when they would come down, they would think
that we were coming from that area by having them make a commotion, breaking
windows, making a commotion, making them think that we were all coming down
that street, coming down at them. They would turn, we were trying to push them
into Sheffield to go and make them go down on Sheffield. We then would cut
[02:04:00] them off by that group as the other group would be waiting. They
would be coming up on that, coming from that site, coming up, going north as the
point that they got started commotion going (inaudible) would come in. We had
another group that would be coming from the north. In other words, we wanted
to trap them. Nothing’s ever perfect. The police, obviously, when the
windshields were being broken down and everything, within a few minutes you
could hear the siren because it is a long block. You’re correct in stating that. So,
it didn’t take, no, not too long of a period that you hear the siren. Police knew
there was going to be a gang fight. They always tended to know when those
things occurred. So, the police is coming, they’re coming into Berry and the
Hillbillies, they’re coming down in there. As they get in there, they run into our
group from the south, getting the beat shit out of them. They getting completely
surprised. They start running back north, but we’re waiting for them up in from
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�the north end. Also, there was a group of us, so they ran into them, so we had
them trapped. But [02:05:00] like I said in the trip now they’re running into the
street and everything else. There were a few of ’em that got away. Most of ’em
were getting their ass kicked. Remember, gang fight doesn’t last a long time, a
few minutes, and it seems like it’s a long time. Those that ran, they ran into
Belmont, going east on Belmont, by the L tracks. Back then, remember there
were taverns there. They were no longer in system. Now you got department
stores and other kinds of places, but then there used to be quite a lot of bars on
that area. It was more at one point, a little bit more like a skid row area type.
Remember Clark, the way it used to be and all that existed, the builders that
existed back in those days, the cigar shops, things like that. The point is that
those guys, they ran in there. The one of the leaders, they, the head number
leaders ran into. We know because I was one of the guys, we chased him inside
one of the taverns and he was looking to try to save his butt. [02:06:00] We beat
the shit out of him right in the bar and then nobody stopped us. They knew what
was going on. They knew we fight. It’s none of their business, so we beat the
crap out of him right in the fucking bar and we walked out. We won the fight. I
mean obviously-JJ:
It lasted, how long did that fight last?
ADR: The fight didn’t last. I mean the running would’ve had been from a 10 to 15minute interval of the whole thing.
JJ:
But I mean wasn’t there a whole week of fight? Wasn’t there a whole week of
grouping together?
79
�ADR: Fighting? There was the scrimmages that led to that particular fight.
JJ:
Okay, so a whole week there was skirmishes.
ADR: That whole week. Yes, there was scrimmages going on.
JJ:
And that’s when we met and decided let’s just fight it. Right, because the police
was starting to get to--
ADR: No, they knew the activity was going on. Yes. Remember a couple of our, not
us ourselves, but the people from the Red Rooster had gotten jumped and they
had gotten ambushed a couple of times during that week, what you’re referring to
that week, you’re [02:07:00] correct. On that particular week, on that particular
day that ended, that’s when the fight ended. That particular night, what we did
that night.
JJ:
Okay. I don’t know the Red Rooster, but I know that it had to do with a family
that they were harassing that lived in that building too.
ADR: The point was that after what we did to them that night and the way we beat the
shit out of them and within the few minutes it wasn’t in there.
JJ:
Sal, you were looking at it from the point of view of one gang fighting another
gang. I was looking at it from they attacked the Puerto Rican family. You
understand what I’m saying? You were looking at it from different perspective.
ADR: Well, I’m looking for the angle that how we conducted our system. You’re right.
The tactics we used.
JJ:
Yeah, you wanted--
ADR: If we didn’t use our tactics, we wouldn’t want the scrimmage would’ve kept on
going.
80
�JJ:
So, you were [strategician?].
ADR: Exactly, and then the strategy ended when we beat the shit out of them.
JJ:
You were concerned with just fighting and I mean, I’m thinking I’m also getting
politicized. I’m thinking [02:08:00] these people didn’t do anything. This is a race
thing.
ADR: To me, is that whether they were racist or not, whether they were racist or not.
When we beat-- the way we beat the crap out of ’em. Okay. It wasn’t like we
were nice to ’em or anything else. I mean we beat the fucking crap out of ’em. A
couple of those guys, we didn’t kill anybody, but I’m sure some of them wished
they would’ve died that night because they had broken bones, broken arms,
broken legs or broken ribs, fucked up faces that we met. We might have scarred
people out that night. We were not nice about what we did. I playing quickly in a
fight. We didn’t have time in there. Try to think of what it is to you. You’re down
on the ground and somebody kicks you in your face or-- we did a lot of damage
that night. We really beat the crap out them pretty good. Those guys that got
their asses, they got the broken arms. They ended up getting broken arms with
broken legs, weren’t about to come back and say, I’m going to be competing,
fighting these fucking guys are crazy. [02:09:00] They didn’t want to fight us.
Then when I’m talking about the damage that we tended to do in a fight, not nice
because nobody-- I’m not glamorizing. That’s my point.
JJ:
We started small, but we ended up with an alliance of all these different groups.
So, we became strong. We were a big group then.
ADR: No, we weren’t--
81
�JJ:
No, what I’m saying, we were fighting just one gang. It was called the
Aristocrats, but we had a lot of gang. We had the Black Eagles, we had the
Flaming Arrows, we had the Paragons, we had the Young Lords. This was
Halsted and Dickens altogether, I believe even the Latin Eagles from the town
hall district police station.
ADR: Latin Eagles weren’t in existence yet at all.
JJ:
They weren’t.
ADR: They were not. Okay. They were not in existence.
JJ:
So, this was the Paragons, the Black Eagles and all these--
ADR: The major groups were right. It was us, the Black [02:10:00] Eagles, the
Paragons.
JJ:
Even the (inaudible) in the--
ADR: Those were the four groups basically that existed. The Red Rooster guys,
ourselves, the Paragons, the Black Eagles. In reality, you can’t count the
Flaming Arrows were not into fighting, so some of them did participate. Now,
that’s not to say that some of them did not participate in the fight about the
imperial laces, but as a group.
JJ:
The Imperial Aces and Queens, what about them?
ADR: The what?
JJ:
It was the Imperial Aces and Imperial Queens.
ADR: Imperial Aces?
JJ:
Or they were with the Flaming Arrows at that time too. They were on Dayton and
Armitage at the Church.
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�ADR: They were not in terms of fighting, they were not-JJ:
Into that.
ADR: No. I mean either-- one thing you’re also forgetting that again, that was different.
Not that you’re forgetting. [02:11:00] I mean it’s, you’re asking what I’m
remembering. One of the other things that we had in our advantage was that we
started a game among ourselves when we were in school, and it is just
something that started off with no apparent reason, but that it turned out to be
very beneficial that during lunch and it started-- one of those things, we used to
punch each other, fight and somehow this evolved into two of us. It would be
different guys every day that would have to fight the rest of the group, and we
agreed that we could not hit our faces. So, every day it was the kind of thing
where we could we punch each other, you have to defend or whatever.
JJ:
It seemed like a game, but anybody played it.
ADR: It was a game that we played every [02:12:00] day when we were in grammar
school, everybody, you were not, remember, you were not-JJ:
Everybody used to practice fighting and stuff like that.
ADR: Well, the point, what I’m trying to say out of that particular situation-JJ:
No, I wasn’t with you guys, but that was a normal thing that was played all over
the place. I played it too. I played it in jail. I played other stuff and a lot of times
too, even times later, I was in and out of jail a lot, so that was it.
ADR: I’m having a hard time hearing.
JJ:
I said other time, I wasn’t also around because I was in and out of jail a lot. Also,
I was going to jail a lot is what I’m saying.
83
�ADR: Well, at that time, I mean we’re talking, what you had working against you in that
time is that you were in a Catholic school and during that time we were talking,
we were practicing this. Look, as a fighter, nobody doubted that you couldn’t
fight or not. That’s not the point I’m trying to make. I’m talking what was
beneficial for the Young Lords as a whole, [02:13:00] that when we had this little
game, when we practiced, we got used to getting punched. That was the
aftermath that I look back on that and in other words, I can remember, look, I can
remember I trick-- I remember tricking Orlando one time, is that when we used to
fight each other, whatever, and I said, okay. It’s like, okay, I had enough or come
down and he dropped the [scarf?], and I went and do nothing. I got him right on
the fucking stomach, I home, but it was fair game and obviously he came back at
me, but we never, not at a point that we were pissed-- angry at each other like
that. The thing I’m trying to show you is that we got used to getting hit so that
when we got into a gang fight, when we were getting hit, it didn’t mean shit to us.
We were already doing that on a daily basis. We were training our body to take
punches is what I’m trying to tell you. That made us more deadly in a fight.
JJ:
I see you didn’t like the [02:14:00] Catholic Church people.
ADR: Huh?
JJ:
You didn’t like people from the Catholic Church? I see that. I said you didn’t like
people from the Catholic Church, but before I went to the Catholic church, the
reason I was in the Catholic Church was because I got kicked out of the public
school, Newbury. I was in Newbury and I got kicked out of there basically. Not
kicked out, but my mother took me out of there to put me in to calm me down a
84
�little bit. By that time, I had changed my thinking. Then I made up for it when I
left eighth grade and that one year I think I was in and out of jail every day, I
think.
ADR: You always had that bad luck. I mean.
JJ:
You call it bad luck. You didn’t go to jail, so you call it bad luck.
ADR: I don’t know, man. I mean look, you had the unfortunate situation. Look,
remember the time there used to be a curfew. We’re forgetting about the curfew.
JJ:
Okay, tell me. [02:15:00]
ADR: And we got picked up and we were done. It was 10:30 and the police saw us on
the street, took us in the squad car and they were going to take us home to
report it to our parents. What the hell is your kid doing after 10:30? Remember
that there used to be an ordinance.
JJ:
A routine? Yes.
ADR: Okay. You, for whatever reason, we didn’t pick you to sit in the middle of the
squad. I mean, they had us in the back seat, right? You knew perfectly well we
were going to jump out. Orlando tell us that yeah. I live over here going down
there on Burling Street and it was instincts we had.
JJ:
This was a cab.
ADR: We knew as soon as that squad car, as soon as that squad car was-- okay, we
were going to jump out of the vehicle and we did. Me and Orlando got away.
JJ:
Well, I jumped out late. I jumped out late. I was in the middle.
ADR: You got screwed up and you got caught in the head-JJ:
And then kicked my butt because--
85
�ADR: I know, but there were things like that that would happen. Okay. That night with
the fight [02:16:00] with the guy that got shot, you got picked up that night in that
gang fight. You went in there, they picked you up. I got away. I mean all, we
were always getting away and I don’t want to say whether it was bad luck or
whatever it was that you had, but it was like you would always get caught.
JJ:
I mean, once you start getting arrested, the police know you and they didn’t spike
you an amount of weight. We’ve seen this guy before. We know who he is.
Let’s go check him out. And that’s usually why. So, once you start going to jail,
they already know you. They get to know you. And I was going in and out of jail
all that time. I mean like you said, I was sheltered in that Catholic school and
now I’m not in Catholic school anymore, and now I want to be the best gang
banger. I want to catch up to everybody real quick. Right? I think you’re right. I
was trying to catch up real quick to [02:17:00] everybody and that summer I went
to jail a lot.
ADR: But bringing it back to something you asked me, what happened with going back
when we really got out of track with these other things. What happened in
Dublin, Georgia, bringing you back to that. They find, as I said, they find our
identifications. They find that we’re wanted in Chicago, which time we were
going back about the stolen vehicles, whether we actually-- When I got back,
that’s what I was told by the police. I don’t know anything about how many
vehicles we had stolen or not at that point. Okay, we get picked up in Dublin,
Georgia. We get in jail, now that they know who we are, that we are wanted for
Grand Larceny from the vehicle of the (inaudible), they put us in a locker. I
86
�admitted, started protesting. I’m saying, “Hey, I’m a minor. You can’t put me in
jail,” which kind of pissed the police a little bit. So, for some reason, because we
were Catholic, some mentality that plays into here that we would tell the truth.
So, I remember being [02:18:00] brought into a room where there was six police
that were sitting around and I had to walk right through them and I’m like,
“They’re going to beat the fucking crap out of me at this point.” I mean, I’m in the
south, I’m from the north. I said, I have a right to an attorney and I’m giving this - I always had that never shut up and when I should shut up and I know my
rights. I’m a minor. You can’t do this to me, blah, blah, blah. And so, they said,
okay. I want to talk to an attorney. And they had a list with names on it. And so,
when I went up in there, they said a phone spread. There was a table and then
there was a panel with names of lawyers on top. And as I said, I don’t know how
big the town, Dublin, Georgia, I always wanted to visit it. One of things, I want to
go back to take a look how the town looks like now. But anyway, when I come in,
I’m scared to death because I’m thinking they’re going to beat the shit out of me
as I’m going through them, but nothing happens to me. I get to the phone. So, I
start to [02:19:00] look up and they kind of noticing that I’m calling the first name
on the list or I might have mentioned the name and I’m marking dialing the
number, I mean with the dial on it. And one of them says, “You don’t want to call
him.” I’m like, “Why not?” He said, “He’s too old or something to that effect.”
Then I go to the second name and I started dialing, and then he said something
about that guy too. I go further down the line and I’m being sarcastic. Is there
anything wrong with this guy? Like saying, is there anything wrong with this guy?
87
�And again, I knew, I realized I’m pissing him off, but I dialed the phone and I tell
the guy who I am and that I’m a minor they got me in jail. So, they said, well,
now we can go to the, I’m going to go down there and see you, blah, blah, all
bullshit. So, they put me back in the cell and man, coffee tasted like shit. They
got us in lockup and everything. [02:20:00] But the captain came, he became
sympathetic towards us, to me and Jerry. So, he says, here’s what I’m going to
do. He says, if you agree, because we were ready to prepare, we were going to
fight extradition. Like I said, we weren’t stupid. I mean we were young, but we
were neither stupid either. And we did, we have a certain amount of knowledge
about the law. So, we figured we can fight extradition. We don’t go back to
Illinois or Chicago. So, he came and talked to us. He says, “Look, if you guys
agree not to fight extradition, he says, we’re going to have to take you in the
morning.” He says, “You’re going to have to go in front of a judge and then
you’re going to tell him whether you’re going to fight extradition or not. You have
to make a plea.” And he said, but if you agree that you won’t fight extradition, he
says, “I’m going to give the, he referred to them as the Northerners.” [02:21:00]
He says, “I’m going to give them 24 hours. If they’re not here in 24 hours to pick
you up,” he says, “I’m letting you out of jail.” I said, “Okay.” So, me and Jerry
said, “Yeah, we’ll do it. We go in front of this judge.” I think it had, I don’t know
what it was, whatever the judge, but I remember having to look up at the son of a
bitch because he sit in like a pillar or maybe because we were younger or
shorter, you had to look it up, that it looked. But we went in front of the judge.
We had their attorney, the guy that I called, that they allowed me to call to
88
�represent us and said, “We’re not fighting extradition.” And asked us, is this your
own free will, blah, blah, blah. Yes it is. And all this other stuff. So, he says,
“Okay.” They took us back to jail and he says, 24 hours. Twenty-four hours.
Now we’ve got two days. I recall might’ve been two, three days that we were in
jail. And believe me, I hated every bit. I wasn’t eating shit [02:22:00] because
that food, it was fucking crap. I see these movies about, man, in the south--bad.
And anyway, 24 hours are up, comes in there and says, “Okay guys, you’re free.”
So, he brought us up and then he already had asked us, he says, when they
wanted to find out, we told, we didn’t know anything about the stolen vehicles.
We told them that all we knew is that we told ’em the truth. We were joyriding on
the vehicles, to go to the place where we were going. And he says, well, he
says, you guys are in deep shit trouble. He says to what you guys done, you
guys stole a lot of vehicles. So, we weren’t thinking like wouldn’t need a lot of
vehicles. We probably stole about, we sent two, maybe three vehicles a day.
We didn’t strip ’em, we didn’t do anything. We just abandoned them. And it was
somebody was taking and stripping [02:23:00] them, me and Jerry, we didn’t
know then. We didn’t know the whole story because-JJ:
That white guy that you were saying he was stripping?
ADR: You knew him. I can’t remember the guy’s name, but the skinny guy-JJ:
McKinney. McKinney. Tall McKinley or McKinley.
ADR: Which what?
JJ:
McKinley.
ADR: Okay. And anyway--
89
�JJ:
He’s the one that snitched on me. That’s what I know. He set me up and then
he snitched on me. And Orlando used to tell me, don’t hang around with him.
ADR: Well.
JJ:
But that’s a different story.
ADR: So, they knew when we asked him, he says, why do we intended to do? Well,
we had told him that we wanted to go to California and me and Jerry really
couldn’t make up our minds whether we want to go or Miami. So, he told us, he
says, I’m taking you to the bus station. I’m going to put you on a bus. He said,
we’re paying for it. So, he says, “If you want to go, want to go to California, I’ll
put you in the Greyhound to go to California [02:24:00] or Miami.” Me and Jerry
decided, because we were closer to Miami, I wonder what would’ve happened if
we decided to go to California. I always wonder about that. Okay. We decided
that we were closer to Florida that we would to go to Miami, Florida, and he gave
us five bucks a piece.
JJ:
So how did you get back to--
ADR: The cop-JJ:
How did you get back to Chicago from Miami? How did you get back to
Chicago?
ADR: Okay, how they got back. I plan to tell how that happened. Okay, we get to
Miami, all right? We come out of the bus, the buses were air conditioned and we
step into that humidity, man. Oh God, man, I never forgot – I hated it. I would
never visit Florida for up until years-- it took me about 40, 50 years to visit
Florida. And [02:25:00] that hit end and we’re coming out, we had the leather
90
�jackets, we had our leather jackets. We hit this fucking wave of humidity. So, we
figured we’d live like we did in Chicago. We could live off the streets.
Remember they had here, you used to deliver milk in the houses, the bread. I
mean, there was always something to eat. You didn’t have to starve. And so,
when we’re in Miami, first thing we did is we stole some clothes. We went to a
department store, try and double up the clothes and took out the clothes that had
changed it. So, we figured we could go to down the beach, and I don’t know why
we had this mentality, we’re going to be able to knock off the coconuts from the
trees.
JJ:
Live off the land.
ADR: Yeah, so we didn’t know that Miami was two cities. You got Miami City and then
you got Miami. So, the point is that, and the interim in there, we get picked up
again by the by the Miami police, but because we’re juveniles [02:26:00] this
time, they take us to a juvenile home. And because we’re from Chicago, we
were the badasses. So immediately when (inaudible) and all the kids found out
that we were from Chicago, we immediately became the boss. Me and Jerry
became the boss on the whole floor. Because they were afraid of us. We were
supposed to be the badasses. And we were there probably anywhere from a
week to two weeks that I can remember. We were in there and we were running
things. I mean, all these other guys were scared shitless of us, but they had us,
the cells that they had us, had us to the bed. Anyway, we were running things in
that juvenile home. And for me, all I know is that we’re sitting down one day.
Like I said, it was no more than two weeks. And maybe I was there in that
91
�(inaudible) home or juvenile detention center. [02:27:00] Like I said, about two
weeks that I was there, all I know is that I’m sitting down eating and one of the
officers comes up to me and says, “You’re coming with me.” I’m like, what the
fuck’s going on? And he takes me out of there and he says, “You’re going
home.” And there was a detective that was waiting, and the detective basically
says that you’re being sent back to Illinois right now. And he said-- I didn’t know
that my parents that were told had to pay for the flight. Anyway, the point is that
they take me, the detective takes me to the airport, and at that point I’m thinking
of escaping. I’m not going to get on the plane. So, I’m trying to figure out how to
get out of it. So, when he goes in there, [02:28:00] he walks with me to the, they
already had everything waiting for me. The plane ticket, they go in there on it.
Now, back then, none of the security points checked-JJ:
None. So, they extradited-- they send you back to the jail or they let you go
home because you were a juvenile.
ADR: As I said, when I was there, they were taking me, I didn’t know what was taking
place other than I’m going to be put on a plane to come back to Chicago. Okay.
That’s all I know. All right. When I get into the airport, I’m thinking all I want to
think. I’m trying to thinking how to escape. So, one of the first things I did when I
got in there, I said, “I got to go use the bathroom.” Here I get into the bathroom,
try to sneak out whatever needed to get away, not for me to board the plane. So,
he said, “Okay, you need to go use the bathroom, go use it.” But he follows me
and he goes right inside. I mean, he opened up the door [02:29:00] and like,
fucking Jack, what the fuck is wrong with you? I got to take a shit and I don’t give
92
�a shit. He says, take your shit. He says, you’re not getting out of my sight. He
said, I know what you’re planning on doing. He says, you’re not going to do it.
So, I pretend to take a shit, I didn’t really need to take a shit. I pretended and get
up. So, he stays with me the whole time. So, when he takes me up to the plane,
he actually went inside the plane. He must have told the stewards what was up
and then whatever. And he sits me on the plane. And ironically I’m sitting by the
door of the plane and I don’t know what kind of event, but was one where the
door was it had the seats and then the door was there. So, there were three
seats. It was a young couple, I don’t know, because this is the way it heard. It
was a young couple that must have just had gotten married and probably
returning back home [02:30:00] from their honeymoon I think what it was. As I
sat down, as he’s there standing looking at me and I says, aren’t you afraid that
I’m going to be jumping out of the plane? The door was right there and he says,
“Kid,” says, “you’re not going to do this. There’s no fucking parachutes on this
plane,” which is making a joke out of it, right? So, I get on sit. There was not for
me to do. I mean, plane takes off and all I could think about is I’m going to get
my ass kicked when I get back home. I was worried about that. I was kind of
quiet. The whole thing. The girl she had, like I said, she was very young, the
early twenties, very, very young. Might have been like 21, 20. And I guess my
face was showing that I was kind of in there and she’s trying to feed me.
Because back them the flights were longer. They used to serve food and I don’t
want [02:31:00] to, I mean to me the least thing. I didn’t want to eat and she’s
trying to get me to eat and this and that, and acting motherly I guess. And I really
93
�didn’t want-- give a shit about that. But I’m just waiting until I get home. So, I
finally get home. To my surprise, my father and my mother are waiting for me.
So, then my mom already had a talk with my father. You’re not going to do
anything to him. You’re not going to touch him. I know my father wanted to beat
the fucking crap out of me. So took me to the side and said, “We know what
happened.” And he said, “We’re going to go home right now.” And he says,
“Going to have to go down, we’re going to have to go down to the police station.”
I said, “Okay.” Well, we got home, my father didn’t say anything to me. I mean,
other than giving me a dirty look. But he didn’t touch me. He didn’t do anything
to me. So, we come home and we go down to the police station. [02:32:00] At
that point, we were living on this block.
JJ:
[Lake View?], you were living in [Lake View?].
ADR: Yeah, no, I take that back. We’re still living in Fremont. (inaudible) We went
down to the police station down here. I’m thinking, because the police station I
came down was the one that was the detective on the north side.
JJ:
Summerdale?
ADR: That was down here off of Lincoln Avenue, just north of Edison Street,
(inaudible).
JJ:
Town Hall, Town Hall.
ADR: Town Hall, right. So, I went in there, that’s when the cop tells me, “We know that
you were in big blah, blah, blah. Everybody’s admitted it.” He says, “All you
have to do is that you were riding on the vehicles, on the vehicles.” I said, “No.”
I said, “I never did anything.” And I started arguing [02:33:00] with the cop. The
94
�cop insisted saying, look, you says, dude, we know that you guys stole this
amount of vehicles. That number sticks in my mind, like I said, 300. And then he
started lowering the number, like saying, “Okay, can you admit that you on 50
vehicles in numbers?” And I still said, “No, I’m not admitting to shit. I didn’t do
anything.” I kept arguing with him. He was getting pissed off at me. So, he
finally got to the point where he said, look, I mean, the conversation wasn’t that
kind of long because my whole point was I’m not going to admit to anything. I
didn’t do anything. I didn’t joy ride on anything. I didn’t steal nothing. And he
said, “Everybody else has admitted.” He says, “You’re the only one right now
that’s not admitted.” I said, “I don’t give a shit, but anybody, I’m not going to
admit to anything. I didn’t do anything.” But finally, actually, he was pleading
with me. He said, “Look, just admit that you were in one vehicle.” I said, “No, I’m
not going to admit to fucking shit.” And so, he got fucking pissed off. So, he
realized, he said, “You’re going to Audy Home tonight.” He said, “If you don’t
admit to one vehicle, we’re going to lock [02:34:00] you up in Audy Home.” I
said, “I don’t care.” I said, “I’m not admitting to anything.” Well, my mother
started crying and I said, “Mom,” I says, “I’m not going to admit to anything. I
didn’t do anything.” So, they said he’s going in. They took me to Audy Home
that night and when I got to Audy Home, knowing how our system works,
remember? Audy Home here in Chicago. We got all the Blacks, the other
badasses and everything else. So, this came back to haunt me. I go in and first
thing I did is try to find, because it was at nighttime, biggest guy I could find. That
was when we were in the process in there. It was this guy, bigger than all of us
95
�in that group in there. And I bumped into him on purpose to start a fight. So, he
didn’t realize what, as I bump into [02:35:00] him, he turns around and says
something to me, and man, I just let out as quickly as I could. I hit him as hard
as I could on the face, on the jaw.
JJ:
In the Audy Home? In the Audy Home.
ADR: Inside the Audy Home.
JJ:
So, you’re fighting inside.
ADR: And then I kicked him on the balls as hard as I could, and then I jumped him and
obviously the other guards and everybody come in rushing pulling me out, which
did exactly what I wanted to do. I wanted them to think I was fucking crazy. So,
the next day, nobody wanted to fuck with me because this fucking crazy
motherfucker, granted one of the biggest guys that I took him down, the word got
out, don’t fuck this fucking Mexican’s crazy. I knew what I wanted, exactly what I
wanted, I wanted be left alone. I don’t know how many days I spent in Audy
Home but again, my mother got me out and went back and they got me out. So
bottom line was when we went, you, I don’t know what happened. [02:36:00] I
know that Orlando, we had different court dates or what have you. Eventually,
because I never admitted to nothing they assigned a social worker to me, but
actually I was never convicted or never charged with anything because I finally,
finally (inaudible) justice. Well, the campaign, they had to drop the charges
against me. I wasn’t admitting to anything. So out of the group, I’m the only one
that never got a record for that because I mean, I’m sure they got into the
96
�participated, but I never got convicted. I don’t know what they did to you or what
-- what happened to you on that, Cha-Cha? What happened to you?
JJ:
What do you mean?
ADR: From the charges? From the car?
JJ:
From this car, from the charges of the car.
ADR: Right. What happened?
JJ:
I don’t--
ADR: You were charged with the auto theft from those vehicles, were you not?
JJ:
I eventually ended up getting deported to Puerto Rico. [02:37:00] I mean, they
put me on a plane in handcuffs and sent me to Puerto Rico, and they tried to
charge me with burglaries, with car thefts, with all kinds of stuff. That guy
McKinney that I’m telling you about, I did the first burglary with him and I started
hanging around with him and he was using me to go inside the window. Again, I
was a juvenile, and so actually I was taking the risk because I could have got
shot going into the window. And so, I went in there and he was already an
expert. I mean, he went, got a pillowcase and started putting jewelry in the
pillowcase and all that stuff. The only thing I wanted was a toaster because we
needed a toaster at the house. I always wanted to have me some bread, toasted
bread. And so that’s the only thing that I took [02:38:00] (inaudible) and another
buddy of his, they got all the jewelry, the TVs, the money they found, the cash,
whatever. Anyway, all I know is that night, around two or three o’clock in the
morning, they knock at my door and my mother lets them in and they come into
97
�the bedroom where I’m at and I get handcuffed when I wake up. I’m handcuffed
there.
ADR: You got sent to Audy Home, didn’t you up in Saint Charles?
JJ:
I went to Audy Home about five or six times.
ADR: But you went up to Saint Charles?
JJ:
I also went to Saint Charles and they were going to put me in a juvenile
penitentiary.
ADR: I remember, hold on, step in there because I remember me and Orlando went to
Saint Charles to try to break you out.
JJ:
Exactly. And remember that too. Yeah. We already had a plan to get me out of
jail. You guys were going to break me out. I mean, I remember that.
Remember, I’m glad it didn’t take place because I would’ve [02:39:00] been still
in jail. But what happened is they were going to send me to Sheridan, which was
the juvenile penitentiary, until I was 21 and I was only 14 going on 15. And
instead, my mother got her pennies together and got me a lawyer. The lawyer
stole the money and the lawyer plea bargained me to go to Puerto Rico until I
was 21 instead of going to the penitentiary. And he figured that he did me a
favor. So, I got put on the plane. I got taken right out of Audy Home, and I drove
in a paddy wagon to the airport and my parents drove behind us and we talked at
the airport and right at the gate, as we’re going into the plane, that’s when they
took the handcuffs off. And then I got met by my uncle in Puerto Rico, and I
stayed there for about a year, a year and a half until my father came to pick me
up. So, I didn’t stay until I was 21. And while I was there, I got into [02:40:00] a
98
�little trouble, but I never went to jail. But here I was going in and out of jail every
other day, at least once a week. So, basically that’s what happened. I know that
they charged me with car theft and stuff like that too, but we also-ADR: I didn’t-JJ:
We were trying to go to California with some stolen cars. That’s what we, and we
got busted about five Young Lords, about three, or four.
ADR: I mean that later on-JJ:
What other gang fights?
ADR: What?
JJ:
Any other gang fights that you remember? What about the beach, North Avenue
Beach?
ADR: There were a lot. We used to fight on a daily basis.
JJ:
You’re looking at it just a gang fight. And I’m looking at it as a gang fight, but I’m
looking at it as a racial thing. When we went to the beach, remember North
Avenue Beach in (inaudible)?
ADR: That was the last day. That was one of the biggest, that’s when I got [02:41:00]
my lip cut. That was the, which I actually had to go with my mother work in the
hospital, Henrotin Hospital.
JJ:
What happened there?
ADR: Okay, that was the day when always, there used to be a tradition to everybody
would fight each other on the last day of school before summer. And we had, as
everybody got out of school, there were fights. We all were going down towards
the beach and there were all fights going on. I mean, obviously if the whites saw
99
�a Hispanic they would jump Hispanic or vice versa. I mean that were like, groups
are going out. We went up to North Avenue. You were with me. I believe that
that was when me and you, we were lagging behind the rest of the group. And it
was a white kid that had going in back of us as I recall and he said something
after we all had passed. But because me and you were the lag [02:42:00] ones,
we turned around and he had made the challenge. At that point, we weren’t
aware that there was another group of white guys coming. So, that’s the reason
he had gotten both because he had seen the group coming--we hadn’t seen the
group. So, as we walked towards him, then we ended up seeing the whole
group. So, as a stand, we both stood, we got ourselves, I think what we did is we
got ourselves against the wall so that nobody could jump us through the back.
And we started fighting with them and we stood our ground in there. I know I got
hit. The reason I got my lip cut was because I got, the guy that hit me had a ring
and we were getting anything, but we were fighting them in there. And the cut
most of been some places you bleed a lot. Not that you got a bad cut, but they in
certain places of the face. But anyway, that’s when they had, what they did that
day is that they took me to [02:43:00] the hospital, the Henrotin Hospital where
my mother worked, where they had to stitch me up and my mother found out that
what had happened on the fight. Then they took us to, you and myself, we were
taken to jail, 18th Street, and I got out with your mom or somebody came from
your family to get you out. I don’t think it was your mother.
JJ:
My father. My father.
ADR: Huh?
100
�JJ:
My father.
ADR: And we both got out at the same-- they let us out at the same time that we got
out. That was the fight on there. But the point of that particular fight, as many
guys as we took, two of us against the whole group, they couldn’t do shit.
JJ:
But my point, what I was trying to say was that at that point, Latinos couldn’t go
to North Avenue Beach.
ADR: The what now?
JJ:
The Latinos -- Hispanic -- could not go to North [02:44:00] Avenue Beach. It was
a white beach. Do you recall that? It was a beach, North Avenue Beach was for
the Italians and the Irish. (inaudible)
ADR: Well, I mean the police used to favor the whites and now the fighting, that was
the whole thing. I mean, what you’re saying, you’re correct. Maybe perhaps we
were kind of used about that. You’re correct in that they should have arrested
the point that they only arrested us. They didn’t arrest the whites. Okay.
Obviously it was a mutual event and it should have been.
JJ:
But they didn’t want us at the beach. The whites didn’t want us at the beach. Is
that incorrect or no?
ADR: The what now?
JJ:
That beach was mainly white. They didn’t want Spanish people there. North
Avenue Beach at that time, or am I incorrect?
ADR: Not that you’re incorrect. I think that what I recall [02:45:00] from that, for me it
was that it was a standard thing that the last day of school there was always
going to be a fight. What I do see is the difference of how the police conducted
101
�themselves at that time. So, the prejudice came from the police, not so much the
whites, meaning the guys who were fighting. Point was that they should have
been, my point in there is that they should have arrested them as much as us
because it wasn’t a one-sided kind of situation. Okay, so where you’re seeing
the whites that we were fighting as part of the system, you’re not really looking at
the authority of how they should have conducted themselves in that particular
situation. In other words, they were taking sides. Had we been white and it had
the same situation, it would’ve been a total, like who started it or that kind. There
was no [02:46:00] question. I mean, me and you, we were busted. They were
not. So that thing, I’m not disagreeing with you. I’m just seeing it a little bit
differently.
JJ:
From a different point of view.
ADR: From a different point of view, and then most of the gang fighting, that’s what
took place until they started hiring more Hispanics. That has changed over the
years, but a lot, there were quite a few other gang fights and the big ones, there
were so many of them. You’re talking about the one by the Rush Street. I mean,
you’re talking about a gang fight when we fought on the streets on Rush Street.
Old Town, I don’t mean how many times we had fights in Old Town -- gang
fights, [02:47:00] confrontations on the streets specifically. I mean, when I
mentioned Rush Street, I remember the commotions that we used to cause
sometimes, and then when we used to get into fights with the whites. The
repeated fights sometimes with people we made peace and then we ended up
fighting again for any number of reasons. The fights that were sometimes we
102
�started learning that some of our own guys that had become Young Lords would
start fights to make themselves look good, and then we would end up having to
fight fights that we started learning from that experience that we would not take
our own members word when they would talk about a fight. That’s where we
started making any new member-- that led us, I don’t know how long it took us to
do this, but [02:48:00] in the later years when we started learning that guys would
start fights for no reason to make themselves look good and that kind of stuff, we
started requiring all new members that would have to go to Benny’s Pizzeria.
Romas, not Benny’s, Romas Pizzeria and fight the group by their own.
Remember that?
JJ:
I remember that.
ADR: Romas knew us. I mean, they knew who we were and all that other stuff we
used to -- when the guy said, I want to be a Young Lords, well, you got to go out
there and you got to fight these guys and see, we got to know how you take-how good of a fighter you are or whatever. So those guys that would go in there,
Romas got a hold of what we were doing because later that they said, “Well, that
fucking guy can’t take shit.” Or because we used to send ’em and they knew
what was coming that time. Soon as Hispanic coming in got a new inductee for
the initiation. Yeah, remember that? [02:49:00] And it is kind of funny to look
back. I wasn’t like those guys, but we used to do that because, but when we did
that because we wanted to know if the guy was -- had it in him or not, because
we were tired. We were--
103
�JJ:
So how long was this gang fights then? I mean how many years did this proceed
from? Because the Young Lords started around what time? Around what year?
ADR: Would’ve been roughly close to five years.
JJ:
Okay. Close to five years that those gang fightings were going on. So, from
what year did the gang start, from your recollection? What year did the Young
Lords start?
ADR: It’s kind of hard for me to pinpoint a bit because I won’t have to say that in the
number of years, more likely the years of fighting would’ve been four, but no
more than five. I mean, [02:50:00] we don’t have a round table. I think we got
started around 1960, 1961. I’m not sure about the 1961-JJ:
Around 1961. Okay.
ADR: The period. But it would’ve have been around after 1960. After 1960, that we
got started.
JJ:
And then the gang fighting was four or five years going on.
ADR: I’m saying for me, the gang fighting years lasted longer. I’m out of the picture by
1965, at the end of 1965. That’s why I’m saying close to five years because I left
in November.
JJ:
Of 1965 to the service?
ADR: When I went into the service.
JJ:
It was November of 1965.
ADR: Right. In 1965, November of 1965. That’s why I’m saying when we’re asking that
question about number of years fighting, the fighting continued obviously after I
was gone, but I was no longer part of that because I was in the service. And the
104
�reason I decided it was part of it was some of the things that at that point, it was
already current with us as [02:51:00] a Young Lords, but Orlando, Fermin,
Benny, you were completely out of the list immediately. We said we were going
to go into the service together because we were tired of the bullshit that was
around us, and we had decided that we were going to go to the service and you
were the first one that I can remember in my recollection, I don’t know whether
that’s correct or not. My recollection is that your mother, immediately when I
found out you were gone and said, “No, you’re not going into that. You were not
going to go.”
JJ:
I didn’t get accepted.
ADR: Huh?
JJ:
I didn’t get accepted because I had children and I had a record. That’s the
reasoning.
ADR: You didn’t have children back then.
JJ:
I actually volunteered. I think we marched together to the recruiting station that
was on Lincoln Avenue and I was saying, “Let’s go march together.” I was
persuading everybody to go march and everybody got accepted except me
[02:52:00] and I had persuaded everybody.
ADR: Right. Maybe you’re right about that. I’m not going to then, okay, you might be
right. Okay. Then Fermin was second. I know that.
JJ:
Fermin was there. Okay. Who was there?
ADR: Fermin was-- his mother got freaked out.
JJ:
We was march—
105
�ADR: Fermin’s mother freaked out about him going to the service. Benny, because he
was close to Fermin, then dropped out. Then Orlando dropped out and I was the
one that was left and I said, “Fuck it. I’m not backing out.” And I decided to go
in. Okay, so out of the group, I’m the one that-JJ:
So, you were going from 1965 to when?
ADR: To 1968.
JJ:
To 1968 to-- because that’s when we started here. That’s when it turned political
in 1968.
ADR: Right when [02:53:00] we come back, you’re talking a whole different thing that
had taken place. Ralph was the one that started getting political. When I came
back-JJ:
Okay, let’s hold it right there.
END OF VIDEO FILE
106
�
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/eb0fbf63b71f6e879499cc73be870422.mp4
746487830d8f11961549600761b6eb6f
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection
Subject
The topic of the resource
Young Lords (Organization)
Puerto Ricans--United States
Civil Rights--United States--History
Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.)
Personal narratives
Social justice
Community activists--Illinois--Chicago
Description
An account of the resource
Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives.
The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide.
Creator
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Jiménez, José, 1948-
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a>
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Date
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2017-04-25
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
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video/mp4
application/pdf
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eng
spa
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Moving Image
Text
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RHC-65
Coverage
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2012-2017
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Título
Spanish language Title entry
Angel “Sal” del Rivero vídeo entrevista y biografía, entrevista 1
Sujetos
Spanish language Subject terms
Young Lords (Organización)
Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos
Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia
Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.)
Mexicano-Americanos--Relatos personales
Justicia social
Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago
Mexicano-Americanos--Illinois--Chicago--Vida social y costumbres
Veteranos--Relatos personales
Pandillas--Illinois--Chicago
Source
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a>
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
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RHC-65_Rivero_Angel_del_1
Title
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Angel “Sal” del Rivero video interview and transcript, interview 1
Creator
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Rivero, Angel del
Description
An account of the resource
Angel “Sal” del Rivero was born in Mexico. In the late 1950s and early 1960s he lived in Lincoln Park on Dayton Street. Later his family moved to the Lakeview Neighborhood near Wrigley Field. Mr. Rivero became one of the original members of the Young Lords in 1959. While the Young Lords were transforming themselves into a human rights movement, Mr. Rivero was serving in the U.S. military. When he came out most Young Lords were opposed to the Vietnam War, although many Young Lords also served on the front lines in that war. Mr. Rivero at first resented those who opposed the war. But after Young Lord Manuel Ramos was killed by an off duty policeman, the entire Young Lords group reunited themselves for human rights.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Jiménez, José, 1948-
Subject
The topic of the resource
Young Lords (Organization)
Puerto Ricans--United States
Civil Rights--United States--History
Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.)
Mexican Americans--Personal narratives
Social justice
Community activists--Illinois--Chicago
Mexican Americans--Illinois--Chicago--Social life and customs
Veterans--Personal narratives
Gangs--Illinois--Chicago
Language
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eng
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Format
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Date
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2012-07-11
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/398132f23a4d0abd7bef4a0a6362ec28.pdf
b138cb5c3e547a544f43470d5d52a8dd
PDF Text
Text
Young Lords
In Lincoln Park
Interviewee: Angel “Sal” del Rivero
Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez
Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections
Date: 7/12/2012
Biography and Description
Angel “Sal” Del Rivero was born in Mexico. In the late 1950s and early 1960s he lived in Lincoln Park on
Dayton Street. Later his family moved to the Lakeview Neighborhood near Wrigley Field, but he never
left Lincoln Park as he traveled to it daily. Mr. Rivero became one of the original members of the Young
Lords in 1959. The other original members of the Young Lords were all Puerto Rican, including Santos
Guzman who moved to Lincoln Park from Philadelphia, Benny Pérez who lived on Halsted, Fermin Pérez
(no relation to Benny), and David “Chicken Killer” Rivera whose regular job later was at a meat market.
Mr. Rivero’s father was the neighborhood barber who cut hair from their home on Fremont and Bissell
Streets, which then crossed each other where they both ended. Mr. Rivero’s brothers improvised a
roller coaster ride made from wooden fruit crates that slid down the railing of their back porch stairway,
racing down into the backyard until the crates finally hit ground on the cement pavement would glide it
on their own. It was exhilarating until the ride ended at the fence. All the neighborhood kids enjoyed it
and the Rivero kids made a mint from the nickles they charged for the rides.The first president of the
Young Lords was Joe Vicente, who had Italian features. Mr. Jiménez became the last president of several
because he was always in and out of jail. Mr. Vicente also lived in the Italian section of Lincoln Park, by
De Paul University, on Sheffield and Belden. His cousin, Johnny Trinidad had moved from New York, to
Indiana Harbor’s Steel Mill area, and then moved onto 95th and Halsted Streets. Mr. Trinidad always
�was free with his opinions, especially before, after, and when he briefly popped into meetings to watch,
but he rarely attended any full meeting, saying that he could not because he lived out of the
neighborhood. Mr. Rivero recalls these early days, noting that the fact that ethnic youth groups lived in
segregated blocks in these early days also played a big difference in their organizing. In 1959, Puerto
Ricans were still scattered throughout Lincoln Park and so the Young Lords did not begin from a
concentrated hangout but were spread out, trying to carve out their own place within Lincoln Park. For
many this meant being targeted by white ethnic youth because they had darker skin, were Puerto Rican,
or spoke Spanish. Mr. Rivero recalls the numerous stands the Young Lords made in their early days. As
more Latinos and African Americans moved into Lincoln Park, Humbolt Park, Wicker Park, and parts of
Lakeview through the 1950s and 1960s, youth began to unite more around national origins. Mr. Rivero
describes an encounter where the Young Lords, Latin Eagles, and a whole range of northside Puerto
Ricans gangs became involved. The Aristocrats were an established white gang that was led by their only
Puerto Rican member, Dulio. They had argued with a Puerto Rican family and had entered into a
primarily Puerto Rican housing project called California Terrace, located by Halsted and Barry near Clark
Streets and threw bricks through all the windows. A war involving about 400 people began and the
white Town Hall policemen hid from view. It lasted an entire week. On one of the days, the Puerto
Ricans walked down Barry Street and broke out all the car windows, from Halsted to Sheffield looking
for and challenging the Aristocrats in their own territory. On another occasion, a stuffed figure of a
person hung by the neck from electrical wires high up in the middle of the street, resembling a lynching.
The war ended when both groups met on their own and agreed to stop fighting, to avoid being arrested
by the police. Mr. Rivero recalls being one of the war counselors with Mr. Jiménez and helping to resolve
the conflict. While the Young Lords were transforming themselves into a human rights movement, Mr.
Rivero was serving in the U.S. military. When he came out most Young Lords were opposed to the
Vietnam War, although many Young Lords also served on the front lines in that war. Mr. Rivero at first
resented those who opposed the war. But after Young Lord Manuel Ramos was killed by an off duty
policeman, the entire Young Lords group reunited themselves for human rights.
�Transcript
ANGEL DEL RIVERO:
In a day or two then they decided to send us to Korea. So
when I went to Korea, I got sent to a missile site. That prompted-- what I
understand is that while I was gone, Orlando was the one that wrote me a letter
saying that a colonel had visited the YMCA, the group, inquiring about me. The
reason the inquiry was being made is I was being sent to a missile site, so I
needed to have a clearance, and when they did, they were doing a background
check on me and everything else. And so Orlando was like, I didn’t know what it
was about, but when I found out about it, I realized what that was about. They
made the inquiry and anyway, the point is that I got, because I was being sent to
missile site, I got what they call a confidential clearance. At any rate, I spent 13
months [00:01:00] in Korea. The significance of the period that I was in there
that I almost got killed. I had a Jeep fall on me. That’s when I busted my back,
my ribs on a Jeep accident, right towards the end of my tour of duty. From that
coming back, I came back on leave, but my parents decided that I should go to,
spend about a couple of weeks in Mexico for vacation. Came back, got sent to
the statesides in Washington and from Washington, the state of Washington, and
went to Vietnam. Then that’s when I came back and it ended my tour duty in
Vietnam. I came back to the stateside, but [00:02:00] Cha-Cha, you’re falling
asleep, man. Hey, you want to end the interview because you’re falling asleep?
The main reason was because we could not be part of the other groups mean
either the Paragons or the Eagles, is that if you’re referring to the area of the
gang activity.
1
�JOSE JIMENEZ:
Right. So that’s the only main reason.
ADR: The main reason mean, obviously I would’ve to say that was the main reason
why the Young Lords came into being.
JJ:
So we wanted to fit in. But what about, okay, so you’re saying that the main
reason that we wanted to, from your perspective, become a Young Lord’s gang
was because we wanted to fit in with the older guys, but they wouldn’t let us fit in.
ADR: Right.
JJ:
We were too young. But did it also have to do with us getting beaten up by the
white gangs?
ADR: No, I don’t think because we were getting [00:03:00] jumped or anything like that,
no. That would’ve been--no, I don’t see that as a factor at all. As individuals we
didn’t-- I think the more strongly purpose, the reason would’ve been the one to fit
in with the older groups, we certainly that had no fear of the white groups that
existed in the area. I mean, common sense-- common sense dictates, I mean,
the difference between other people or groups where gangs evolve or get started
and the variables that exist and how that comes to about. But as a group, not
really. I think without realizing-- [00:04:00] it’s sort of creating a team.
Sometimes teams come into being -- Or I was trying to make another
explanation. My perspective, for us, it was like a team that was created much, I
mean, I’m making an analogy. Any team that becomes successful and a team
becomes successful, obviously you don’t hear it about the ones that don’t
become successful. So the analogy that I’m trying to make out of this particular
situation is as far as the Young Lords and what later on is represented, was
2
�much in the analogy that I’m talking about that I’m thinking is sort of like with the
Bulls, for example. Obviously without Michael Jordan [00:05:00] and other, but it
wasn’t just Michael Jordan. The other players that played, that was made up in
there with the coach and everything else made through a unique team that ended
up winning a lot of titles for the Chicago. I mean, it is the Bulls as they won, and
when they broke away, it hasn’t been in Chicago, it hasn’t been duplicated. And
so I think that it does when certain things, elements that come into being a can
create that kind of environment. So not every team, not everybody’s going to
succeed at those particular levels. So, so far as the gang activity, this is what I
mean, what the Young Lords represented. The innovations, we didn’t know we
were doing anything-- referring to the weapons, for example-- lessons learned. It
wasn’t like we sat down and that we needed to continue to carry weapons.
When we got caught the first [00:06:00] time with the blackjacks and with the
knives in that particular gang fight at Arnold Upper Grade Center, we quickly
learned this is not a smart thing to do, to be carrying weapons around so we
changed our tactics and improved on it. That made it a lot easier that we could
walk around. Somebody stopped the searches. I mean, a police officer pulling
us over won’t find any weapon, no reason to be picked up, no reason to be
thrown in jail. We didn’t give them the excuse. We didn’t know what we were
doing. I mean, the effect, the impact that we were having and we were creating.
The other area that I already spoken about is about the ability to, the tactics and
learning how to fight, how to take a punch. We didn’t know we were training
ourselves for fights. We even thought as that we thought it was a game to play
3
�among each other. Obviously, when we look back on that, for me it makes me
realize why is, I mean that when we were fighting, we didn’t think about when we
were fighting that we took a punch or not. It was sort [00:07:00] of like second
nature to us. We took a punch, like so what, the guy hit me big deal, or that it
stung or that it hurt. But because we were already used to that, that was the part
without realizing that we were training ourselves, we didn’t know if we were doing
that. Years later, we came to realize, I mean, in my part, I came to realize, wait a
minute, we trained ourselves to take a hit to be able to attack. We were fighting-the little things that we did. And again, in that particular area of fighting how
somebody throws a punch, how to receive the punch. Because when we’re
fighting, again, I have to emphasize that in there, that how we learned it wasn’t
just taking the hit, but when you’re seeing it, where you going to get it, where you
want that impact to hit, you’re not going to avoid the hit, and it had to become
second nature. So that we would, in fighting how when somebody would hit and
how we get hit sometimes where we leaned, how we moved, all of these things
was part of that particular thing that made us, [00:08:00] later on, I mean, it
started to make us famous and obviously the thing that we wanted to prove to the
Paragons and to the Eagles, that we were just as good as they were. So we
wanted to do more damage. And again, all of those little things that were being
done in that time helped us to gain that reputation. But the cornerstone, not the-wrong word. The turning point was the fight that I mentioned that, as I said,
when Orlando had to fight with the Paragons over the issue, that they wanted to
jump the [Black...?]
4
�JJ:
Okay, and which, yeah, that was the corner, the turning point at that time. So I
think you made a very important point here. You said that a lot of it had to do
with fitting in more than in protection. In other words, that we were not afraid of
the white gangs.
ADR: Or [00:09:00] the Black gangs for that matter?
JJ:
Or the Black gangs or anybody. It was more like we wanted to fit in and we
couldn’t fit in the Black Eagles. They were older or the Paragons. So we had to
have our own group, and now we’ve got to show them that we’re even better
than they are. So that’s a very important point.
ADR: Well, obviously we-JJ:
From my perspective, I am going by the routine saying that it was for protection.
But actually I agree with you. I think now that you’ve mentioned that, that was
more like we wanted our own thing, our own--
ADR: Well, the other area, I mean in the fighting we did-- as far as the fighting, again,
how we conducted ourselves. One of the other which has been touched, and I’m
retouching the particular area, is the area that we were not constantly [00:10:00]
together. That also was a plus side, because it is, as I said internally, there were
groups that individuals, individuals that came in thinking we can take over or we
can run it, and always coming up against a solid wall of, no, you’re not going to
do it.
JJ:
So how did that work that we were not together all the time? You mean the
whole group wasn’t together.
ADR: It’s just the way we--
5
�JJ:
But they had little groups. We had little cliques.
ADR: It was our lifestyles. I mean, more than anything else, for whatever reasons. For
example, obviously, well, not for whatever reasons. I mean, if you take a look at
Benny and Fermin, they tended to be in school together. They’re always doing
things together. So it was natural for them to go in a particular way.
JJ:
Okay, so you had one group. That was one group, and then there was--
ADR: The other group. I mean, there were other, a mix of groups [00:11:00] because
one of the things I have mentioned earlier, they were not, when I’m talking, not
that it’s difficult to remember, but there were a lot of other people. You got other
people involved in part of the Young Lords that came in and ended up believing
or that throughout the period of time that things were going on.
JJ:
There were different generations. Again--
ADR: Not so much that there were generations. I would’ve to say that there were
individuals, how would I put it? The reflection for me, I mean among ourselves,
is that we tended to have a certain people that followed us as a group. So for
example, me and Orlando tended to be together, but it wasn’t just me and
Orlando. There were other fringes from the newer members that would hang
around with us just as much as when you drifted, you drifted with you. We spent
time with you, but not as much as, in other words, you tended to drift away from
us with other individuals, but [00:12:00] we weren’t-JJ:
Everybody went, there were different cliques and everybody--
ADR: Exactly. Different areas and things that were going on.
JJ:
So that gives me, other people were drifting around too to the different groups.
6
�ADR: And it wasn’t that we didn’t get along or anything. It’s just the way for me, even-JJ:
One day, somebody hung around here and another day in another location.
ADR: I’m trying to think of it. There was a lot of individuals that had a certain amount of
impact. For example, you had Shorty, a Mexican guy. It also had to do with the
girlfriends and individuals the way who was with whom and that kind of stuff. The
only thing I can explain, I mean if you’re talking from my perspective, is that I just
happened to be-- spend more time with Orlando than I did with anybody else
because we just tended to naturally drift together. I know I taught him how to
drive a car, which was kind of funny so far as, because we had to go steal a car,
steal cars in order [00:13:00] to teach him because he wanted to learn how to
drive. Remember, I was the only one at the beginning. I was the only one that
knew how to drive. The only reason I knew how to drive because my father
wanted to wash his car every day or every other day on it that forced me to learn
how to drive. My father loved cars and I didn’t, I mean, I didn’t really care for
them, but I was the very first one that knew-- out of that whole group that knew
how to drive. You had to learn, and you learn actually more quicker than
Orlando. Orlando’s wrecked. I don’t have any vehicles.
JJ:
I learned in a stolen car. We all learned in a stolen car.
ADR: He busted up a couple of cars in the process of learning how to drive.
JJ:
I ate it from (inaudible) too.
ADR: And you had an easier time learning how to drive than he did. As I recall, okay.
7
�JJ:
So people were drifting from one group to the other group and all over the
neighborhood. So [00:14:00] they were in different parts of the neighborhood.
Some went to, what is it, the Adams playground?
ADR: And also, yeah, but you got to remember how we went home when we went
home and things like that. The things. But it was just sort of a, I don’t think that
we were any different in terms of that socializing than any other group. And I
believe that any other group, there’s a tendency for certain people to hang
around together. Within a given group, you have your inner circle of certain
individuals hanging together or spending more time with each other than other
individuals. And so that’s the way it worked. So there were a lot more gang-- I
mean, there was a lot more for me, because I have deference, because when
you talk about the fighting that existed at the beginning, what made us, I mean
[00:15:00] becoming more noble was for another reason that we drifted out of the
neighborhood. So when you’re referring to other areas, we weren’t just hanging
around Armitage and Halsted. We’re going up north. We went to that, which
now I believe is part of the Latin school where they had the private school that
existed back then that we had. I mean, we went-- things to come back to mind
that were a lot of different places. The guy that actually got us with the idea to
help out that came in, I can only remember his nationality. He was actually a
Spaniard, Spanish kid. He was in high school with us that became part of the
Young Lords, and they had asked him for help because they knew some of the
people that were, which turned out to be the Cuban, I referred to as the Cuban
clan, if you will. The individuals that, as I said, that first wave of immigrants that
8
�came to the United States, that the Castro had ousted, Batista, and we had that
came here. There was like 10,000, [00:16:00] I believe, that came into the
Chicago area at that time, or maybe exactly what the number. But these were
well to do people. The children were attending-JJ:
We actually had a branch of them up north.
ADR: Well, that’s because we helped them. How we ended up going is that they had a
fight actually with some Japanese kids, that karate bullshit and all that other stuff
we’re going to be, who gives a fuck about karate. We went and beat the crap out
of ’em. They were endeared to us because we helped them out on the fight. We
went in there and did what we did and beat the shit out of these guys, and then
invited us to go up north where they lived. They lived up in Evanston.
JJ:
They had nice girlfriends.
ADR: Beautiful women. So that was part of the, and obviously for girls, I mean, the
thing about it is that obviously we were the Young Lords, so we attracted a
certain amount of-- women are women, I mean, even back [00:17:00] then, no
reality that we had is then we were the Young Lords. So it wasn’t because it was
Sal, or it was Cha Cha, I’m going on with a Young Lord, we had the reputation.
JJ:
What about Young Lordettes?
ADR: Huh?
JJ:
Weren’t there Young Lordettes,
ADR: These were pissed off-- The Lordettes was a part of a group of women that were
part of us. But you would have to ask, I mean, and this kind of thing. That’s the
question that they would need to answer. Obviously they knew-- I can’t believe
9
�that did not aware of what we were doing. And certainly that must have pissed
him off at times because we really, at least for my part, and even Orlando, I think,
but we didn’t have steady girlfriends, and I don’t think we did it as something that
was in our minds. I think it was part of our mentality is that because we were
meeting girls all over the place. I mean, when we used to go down Lincoln,
[00:18:00] Evanston, the South Side, other areas, we were always constantly
meeting women. So it was not like we wanted to be tied down to a particular girl.
And me in my particular, I tended to stay away. And then I think it was true for
the rest of us. Though, I got to say, you reminded me something about you. You
tended to fall in love. You tended to fall in it, and you fell hard. It was like, I got
to be with a woman. And it’s like, what the fuck is wrong with Cha-Cha, man? I
got all these other damn broads. And then he’s out there-- you used to get
heartbroken when you were out with a girl. You wanted to be with her
sometimes. Now you’re making me remember certain things. It not that you
didn’t want to spend time with us, it’s that you fell in love with the damn broad
and you had to be with her all the goddamn time. Like what the fuck is wrong?
Leave them alone. Interested.
JJ:
Why would I want to be in a gang?
ADR: The funny part about it, you ended up, how many times? Well, I mean, I’m not
trying to get personal, but-JJ:
How many divorces, right?
ADR: Right. [00:19:00] I don’t-- I mean, I used to not be tied down or anything.
JJ:
You’re still married to the same woman.
10
�ADR: Exactly.
JJ:
How long have you been married to the same--
ADR: I don’t-- 43 years.
JJ:
Forty-three years to the same woman.
ADR: That’s the opposite of you. You know what I mean. I don’t understand that.
JJ:
You made your point. You can rest your truth.
ADR: But you did. I mean, you are reminded of certain things where sometimes certain
things are missing. It’s coming in there and you’re making me realize that you
had something that, I mean, I am kind of, I’m not dwelling on it. I’m just trying to
point out that kind of fits a little bit of the puzzle of that why sometimes you
weren’t hanging around with me and Orlando or some of the other guys because
you did get taken aback when you were with a woman.
JJ:
You think that could have been because I was going to jail a lot or --?
ADR: No, you keep saying it. Jail. It [00:20:00] wasn’t jail.
JJ:
It wasn’t jail.
ADR: You didn’t spend, I mean, you did certain things. It had to do with the women.
That’s where you, the thing about that was going on with you. You did. I mean,
there’s no doubt that you got picked up more often than the rest of us. Okay.
We hardly got, I mean, quite honestly, we hardly got picked up and actually you
spent more time with a woman than you did with us because you used to-- if I’m
putting, I’m not sure. Did you fell hard for that or you couldn’t? In other words-JJ:
I don’t remember.
ADR: You were pussy-whipped. I’m sorry. The women.
11
�JJ:
No. Probably that I don’t know, but I--
ADR: Okay.
JJ:
Because I can’t-- I do remember that I would be with one.
ADR: Yeah, then you just like had to be with a woman all the time.
JJ:
(inaudible) woman had a man. And then when they split up. (inaudible)
ADR: I recall, I mean, I really can’t be certain, but even I think at the age of 16, you
almost got [00:21:00] married.
JJ:
I know I went to jail for a stabbing over a woman. I did that. Stabbed somebody
over a woman. Yeah, I did that.
ADR: But remember the fight. You remind me about the fight, about the stabbing that I
wasn’t there. That happened up in the north side.
JJ:
Same high school.
ADR: That had to do with a woman. Right.
JJ:
And I went to jail for it. Yeah, I did six months.
ADR: That had to do with a woman.
JJ:
They wanted to give me seven years. I was lucky. I got six months.
ADR: So that’s what I’m referring to. You fell hard for a woman.
JJ:
I stabbed a guy by five times or something, I got crazy. I was drunk too. Okay.
ADR: Yeah. You were jealous. (inaudible) the rest of us. I mean, I reaction. We were
going out with somebody and making out. She went out and made out with
another guy. Hey-JJ:
I wasn’t the only one that was going around in the neighborhood too. Other
people were going through that.
12
�ADR: The thing is, we weren’t, I mean, and in particular, I mean what I learned from
those things, and not all of us were [00:22:00] the same way. When I had that
situation come up with a woman, I just simply would walk away from her. I would
not like, “Hey, do you want to go out?” That’s your business. I’m not. And
Orlando did the same thing. So later on he could be persuaded by a woman-falling for a woman.
JJ:
He did that too. I remember he did that too. He fell in love a lot too.
ADR: Yeah, he did. Later on. He did.
JJ:
Later on, later on. You’re right.
ADR: Later on when he did-JJ:
So we were dealing with issues, different issues. We were dealing with different
issues, including with women and women.
ADR: Right. The area, there’s a lot more, I mean, at the moment, and you’re calling is
that, I’m not remembering, but obviously in so far as the gang fights.
JJ:
But what about the Young Lordettes, because I want ’em to get it.
ADR: The Young Lordettes. I mean, you’re talking about Lynn-JJ:
But there was one group, Lynn and Margaret and Sheila [00:23:00] and Edna.
ADR: Sheila, right.
JJ:
And Vita and all those people. What’s her name? Marta or [Ynez?]-- what other
women? What about Little Cha-Cha was involved?
ADR: I think what it was, you forget.
JJ:
A little Cha-Cha too, a Mexican girl from the, because we had a group of Mexican
women too.
13
�ADR: Right. But the rest of us, some of the people in the group I here, that’s what we
differ. We didn’t make a big deal out of it, but we did differ. I know that Orlando
and myself, I can’t speak for you, but we didn’t care, in other words, about the
Lordettes. Like I said, because of what we were doing and going to different
places, but I know that some people in the gang wanted to have the Lordettes.
You were one of those individuals. You pushed for that. You wanted to have
them. That wasn’t something the rest of, not [00:24:00] some of us that we
wanted, we didn’t to us, because remember, we weren’t going out with them.
JJ:
We were expanding. I wanted to expand. I wanted always to expand.
ADR: As a group we appreciated, and it doesn’t mean we didn’t appreciate ’em. We
appreciated them, but with the exception, well, we didn’t have the love interest
with them. I mean, for some of us, so to us it was in give or take type situation,
whether it matter or not.
JJ:
Now, were these women, were they mostly into gang banging?
ADR: No. Not at all.
JJ:
Not into gang banging at all, right?
ADR: No.
JJ:
So they were more into parties.
ADR: They were more into the dances and things, the socializing activity and that.
JJ:
That’s important because a lot of people think that they’re gang bangers. They’re
into drugs and prostitution and all. None of that.
ADR: No, no. With us, [00:25:00] it wasn’t anywhere near anything that had to do with
anything like that at all.
14
�JJ:
So what did it have to do then?
ADR: Just the socializing aspects of the dances, activities that we had and that kind of
thing. Obviously on their part-JJ:
Because later on that became like a stigma for them. As people got to know
more about the Young Lords, they thought that the women, the Young Lordettes
were prostitutes or whatever. That’s what they thought, and a lot of ’em shied
away.
ADR: Why would they, when you’re saying something like that, why would they, again,
a question. Why would they?
JJ:
I’m saying that that could have been, it could have been. I don’t have proof. I
don’t have that.
ADR: I think remember the Black Eagles, though? I can’t recall whether in effect, even
the Black Eagles, the women, and the Black Eagles, here’s the difference
between us and the Paragons. In the Paragons and the Black Eagles, the
women, [00:26:00] I don’t know if they basically had also, they had in other
words, a group of women.
JJ:
They did. They did.
ADR: Okay. The difference between them and us, it is obvious and in fact, that some
of those, the women ended up being couples, ended up getting married to each
other. I would say that in larger, in other words, more members married their
own, in other words, club members in both groups. Both the Paragons and the
Eagles.
JJ:
And the Black Eagles.
15
�ADR: Where we in the Young Lords, I really can’t make any connection.
JJ:
Well, one or two. There’s one or two.
ADR: Because even Angie with Poncho, they came together.
JJ:
(inaudible) and Mary Gladys--
ADR: Was not part of the group.
JJ:
That was later. She came later.
ADR: Yeah. She was not part of the group at all.
JJ:
Of the Young Lordettes.
ADR: Gladys was, what’s his name? Wayne-- Edwin’s sister.
JJ:
Yeah. That was later. You’re right.
ADR: Yeah. Much [00:27:00] later. They had nothing to do.
JJ:
But what about Ruben Aviles and (inaudible)? That was later, too?
ADR: That was later, too.
JJ:
Okay. That was later too.
ADR: There was no, absolutely no.
JJ:
I mean, they were both Young Lords, but--
ADR: She became later because he was-JJ:
But they got together later. They got married later.
ADR: Was not, it’s a gang.
JJ:
Right? It’s a gang.
ADR: None of that existed. Not anybody in the group ever married anybody that was
part of the Lordettes.
16
�JJ:
Well, I had a girl named Cuba. I had a girlfriend named Cuba. We had some
girlfriends, though. We did have--
ADR: As girlfriends, as girlfriends to some of us, yes, but not married. Not in a very
lasting way.
JJ:
And do you remember some of the leaders? I remember there was a girl named
Vita Beatrice who some of the leaders of the Young Lordettes, Beatrice,
Margaret Trinidad, and [00:28:00] Edie, Manuel Ramos’ sister.
ADR: Edie-- that was later. But see, that came later.
JJ:
But I’m saying those were three leaders of the women. Do you know any other
ones? Do you know any other women leaders or no?
ADR: The what now?
JJ:
Those were three leaders of the Young Lordettes. There were a couple Young
Lordettes groups. There was one--
ADR: Well, actually, you can’t, you have to correct yourself on that.
JJ:
Halsted and Armitage. There was--
ADR: You can’t, when we became a party, no, I’m not trying to argue with you. From
my perspective, from the point that we became a political organization, that’s
when Nita came in. That’s when other women that became, they became
prominent, but they became prominent as part of being Young Lords, not
become Lordettes.
JJ:
Okay. Now, they were called Young Lords then, but Edie was the leader of the
Young Lordettes for a while, and so was Margaret.
ADR: It might’ve been during the period I was in the service.
17
�JJ:
Yeah, [00:29:00] no, maybe when you were in the service.
ADR: Yeah.
JJ:
They were leaders in Old Town, Edie and Margaret, and then Beatrice was the
leader from Halsted and Dickens. We had a group of Young Lordettes there.
ADR: Okay. That would’ve been, like I said, during the period that I was out of the
country.
JJ:
Yeah, I remember I was going out with Yoruba. She was a Young Lordette from
Halsted and Armitage.
ADR: Well, you reminded me of something too, right now as far as the women. There
was one real, I don’t remember her name. She was really good looking Puerto
Rican girl, and everybody was after her.
JJ:
That was Beatrice. I think that was Beatrice.
ADR: But she was not a Lordette.
JJ:
No, she was not a Lordette.
ADR: She was more to the right, and I think to the, but her brother was one of the guys
[00:30:00] that belonged, actually was part of the Paragons. The reason I’m
mentioning this is that the brother ended up committing inadvertently-JJ:
Oh, Chino. Chino.
ADR: The one, Chino killed himself, right.
JJ:
His sisters were Paragons. Yeah. His sisters were Paragons.
ADR: Right.
JJ:
Yeah. That’s not who I’m talking about.
ADR: No, that’s the one I’m talking about. It was after--
18
�JJ:
He was a Young Lords, and his sisters were Paragons. Okay.
ADR: But that’s particular, the one, you making me reminded because at that point he
made the stupidity to play in the Russian roulette. That’s how he killed himself.
And I remember sitting down one time one night and I thought that was real
stupid because, and where I sat down one time when they were playing the
game, obviously nothing, nobody got killed when I was there, but I know that he
ended up doing it again and he killed himself.
JJ:
Himself. Yeah.
ADR: The bullet and ended up killing himself, which messed up the sister, [00:31:00]
and that just came to my mind when we were talking about the thing that I just
thought about. But as a group, I, during the era, those things we did, we didn’t
know what we were doing, that it was playing those particular roles that were
setting us up for certain things that ended up, I think helping as far as our
interaction into the political process.
JJ:
I mean, we trusted each other. How did that happen? How do you think that
happened?
ADR: I think because we started out at a very young age, so that in doing all the
activities, we never second guessed each other and what we did, and even
[00:32:00] to that point, it’s like with the challenges that were made to people in
the group and how we ended up defending each other.
JJ:
What kind of challenges?
ADR: Well, as I said, again, people, for any number of reasons that came into being, I
guess you’d have to look at it. I can think of two ways right now, but also to
19
�involve other, might’ve been more than two, but I’m referring to, which I have
mentioned a number of times about people trying to take over the group and
we’re not successful because we would come together. And the other one would
be as individuals when we would end up having fights. For my part, I can
remember one time where we took more, you and me would take more
processing to some of the things that we did, and as I recall and I have
mentioned is we tended [00:33:00] what we had the title because we negotiated
the fighting process that when a gang fight would take place, when we would
have sit downs with the opposing inside, and we call ourselves the warlords. In
other words, we gave ourselves a title that we would sit down with the enemy to
make out how we were going to have to fight. Kind of silly, but we used that
word and it was usually tended to fall to you and me when we did those things.
JJ:
So that meant that there had to be a lot of trust.
ADR: Well, I’m getting to that about the trust and things that happened. I remember
Santos Guzman, one time I had proposed something that I wanted to do. I
remember the recalling Orlando and myself were ones that basically were, if you
want to call, started the Young [00:34:00] Lords, they were instrumental in
creating what came the Young Lords. Santos wanted to be the leader. I mean,
I’m moving kind of fast forward to make-JJ:
That’s your perspective, because there was other people that--
ADR: Yes, there were, but I’m refer to in clarifying part seven people originated. Well,
I’m not trying to take credit in the way that you’re implying.
JJ:
I’m saying that’s your perspective in this one.
20
�ADR: No, well, I mean, I’m trying to do this. My perspective, what I would say is that if
there hadn’t had been-- hadn’t been an Orlando.
JJ:
Oh, definitely.
ADR: No Young Lords would’ve existed in their self.
JJ:
Orlando. Orlando founded the gang.
ADR: Huh?
JJ:
Orlando founded the gang, the Young Lords. I mean, Orlando to me is the one
that started the Young Lords. That’s the way I look at it.
ADR: No.
JJ:
And then he got us all together, and I agree that you and him.
ADR: Me and Orlando were the ones that got together.
JJ:
You and him did hang around together a lot. You and him did hang around
together.
ADR: It was me and Orlando, then (inaudible).
JJ:
But I hung around together with him too. I mean, he lived [00:35:00] right.
ADR: If his brother, we put it to this way, there wouldn’t have been any Young Lords. If
his brother hadn’t gone into a fight and I hadn’t been there to defend him, that
would’ve meant that me and Orlando would’ve never become friends. Now, what
would’ve happened, we can speculate all you want, but the creation of the Young
Lords, when me and Orlando got together that we needed to have a group of our
own. That was our idea. Orlando could tell you the same as much as I’m telling.
If me and Orlando had not become friends and sat down, we have to have our
own group.
21
�JJ:
Me and Orlando were getting ready to fight each other at one point. Me and
Orlando, this guy was going to give a watermelon to whoever won to fight
between me and Orlando. That’s how me and him met. That’s how I met
Orlando. We were supposed to fight over a watermelon.
ADR: [00:36:00] Over the what?
JJ:
This older guy didn’t like me and didn’t like Orlando, and he wanted us fighting,
and he said, he offered to buy us a watermelon, whoever won, this was on right
there on Dayton and Willow. This is when I first met Orlando.
ADR: Orlando was hanging around.
JJ:
But I’m saying he was like that with different people. He would fight different
people and then he would respect them after they fought. So that’s how I’m
saying. That’s how me and him met. That doesn’t mean that we decided on the
Young Lords then he called me to a meeting. He’s the one that called me.
ADR: Well, that’s what I’m trying to tell you. Look.
JJ:
What I’m saying, Orlando was hanging was a leader and everybody had a
relationship with him.
ADR: No, you got it wrong. I’m telling you, your interpretation of facts is-- On
Freeman, there was a club at the corner, and basically [00:37:00] everybody was
considered to be part of that particular club that went and signed in. As I said,
Orlando during the, I’m talking referring to the evening, Orlando used to go
around the area and the same thing as me. I mean, as far as I remember, and
the end there, you were not around in the initial process. I’m talking the initial
process before the, we even had the Egyptian Lords before there was any
22
�creation of that. The reason that came about it, it wasn’t like we sat down
immediately and decided to do this is what I’m trying to point out to you. What
happened was that when I had the fight and Orlando had come over, when he
found out about it, he started hanging in the corner. The following day he said
we need to have this around. He started hanging around on Fremont because
he didn’t live there. We were going to the same school at that point, it wasn’t
like, hold on. We had friends, the group of kids, those that lived on Bissell and
Freeman, the congregation, [00:38:00] we had a group, a gang we called
ourselves the Dayton Boys, you’re forgetting about that. They were the ones that
I meant that I talking about where I ended up having a fight with one of ’em was
trying to take my bike. The Dayton Boys hung around Dayton and Armitage.
That was their corner at that time.
JJ:
That’s correct.
ADR: It was an Italian place that used to-JJ:
That’s where he broke his arm.
ADR: Right. I’m breaking it down. So they’re over here on that corner where they
hung around. The younger kids, we were the younger ones, much younger.
They were hanging around at the end of Fremont, and what would be, whatever
the name of that side street that led into the tunnel that you would go to go to
when we went to Mulligan School in the morning, to the elementary school. But
on Bissell, not on Bissell, on Fremont there was that storefront that was
considered our (inaudible). There was also a candy store that was typical in that
area of having your nickel and dime family owned businesses. [00:39:00] There
23
�were actually two. There were three businesses. The club, another small
storefront from a house that was being run by typically older people, and one
immediately across from there. We used to have gangs. We used to play with
the girls. We always wanted to make out. I mean big (inaudible) as we were
growing up and liking girls, you reminded me of something because we always
wanted to make out. The big thing with, I mean, it wasn’t like we got the Playboy
magazine or we had all these pornography or things that you see today. And
you’re forgetting that at that time, I would remind people, girls used to wear
scarfs all the time, and I actually started a stupid little game with one of the girls
that we liked, the girls who we wanted to kiss, used to have the sleepover
sometimes, the pajama parties. Orlando was hanging around at that point after
the fight, he was hanging around with me because we knew the same people. It
wasn’t because he was hanging around with me, but we were hanging around
within the same group. Mineo, Sal Mineo became [00:40:00] kind of drifted into
our group. For whatever reason, he was the much older, but he drifted into this
particular group. From that was what led into the creation of wanting to have the
gang. So that’s what I’m saying. If Orlando and myself had never gotten
together, you would not have had, I don’t believe that there would’ve been some
kind of a gang, maybe, I don’t know what would’ve happened, but this is what
occurred. And we used to have a game that he’ll remind you, I’m going into the
gang. I took one of the girls, some of us would kind of pair off into some of the
girls, and I still remember her name, Billie May. Okay, Billie May, like I said, they
had those guys, and one of the games we used to play around, because either
24
�we used to play the bottle, we roll in the bottle, so we get to kiss the girl, which is
a big deal when we were kids. I ended up taking one of the scarfs away from
Billie that she had said on her scarf, and she says, I want give it back. I said,
yeah, but you got [00:41:00] to have to give me a kiss. So one of those things,
she says, okay, and then we started and it became again, all the girls always
said, ready. We started playing that game every day that we would go around
trying to take the scarfs away from ’em, and then in order to give ’em back, they
had to give us a kiss. So it became a game that in a natural process. All of that
was what we were getting along. You asked me that. I wasn’t able to answer
what I’m talking about, that we didn’t feel that we fit it in, and that’s where
somehow because of maybe things that were taking place, we really didn’t felt
remember close because the Dayton Boys were the older brothers of some of
the individuals that we were hanging around with. I remember one guy named
Jack, there’s another one that was the son of the father that owned the, on
Armitage and Halsted that owned the hotdog stand. And I remember getting one
time because of the curfew getting picked up [00:42:00] and comments that were
made where they did took me home saying kids in there, but with the parents that
maybe my kid ought to be hanging with somebody else because too many
Hispanics are coming in into the neighborhood and that kind of thing. Me and
Orlando, not in great detail, we kind of briefly kind of discussed that. We didn’t
feel that-- in part because Orlando, you got to remember, you’re forgetting so
about Orlando, but two characteristics that we both had and we still have. We
were not afraid to fight. We reacted. If somebody challenged us, we jumped on
25
�it. We didn’t think about it. It was second nature to us. We would immediately
go into a fight. Maybe you might call us quick tempered, but we had [00:43:00]
that characteristic that we would fight back. He didn’t care who it was or how big
the guy was. We didn’t allow ourselves to be pushed around. Now, I have to
admit, sometimes that’s not good to quickly react in this kind of a situation, but
that what led into the idea along with Mineo that we discussed with Sal Mineo
that we discussed with him about having our own group. That led to further
things. Now how you got involved-JJ:
One way was that I had met Orlando before.
ADR: You might have, I’m not denying that.
JJ:
Orlando, Orlando went to my mother’s catechism classes. My mother had
catechism classes right in her house, the neighborhood kids, the loco, the crazy
ones, would go there to these catechism classes. They were public school kids
and she had ’em make their first communion. Orlando was one of those people,
[00:44:00] and so I met him there. I met him there at that time. So that’s one.
The other thing you mentioned, Mineo. Me and Mineo had been in the same
gang at Franklin School over by Cabrini Green, the housing project. I had met
him there before he moved more into Lincoln Park. So I had met him there like
two or three years before he moved into Lincoln Park. Now you’re telling me he
drifted with you guys. I agree, because I think the first fight was the Dayton
Street Boys and I wasn’t there for that first fight because Orlando--
ADR: Well, it wasn’t a fight, wasn’t, as I said, nobody was hanging around. We weren’t
hanging around together. What happened is that I pointed it out to you, maybe
26
�I’m not explaining correctly. You guys was at school. The fight got started
during, in the, probably at lunchtime.
JJ:
so you guys did have fights because that was still at Saint Teresa’s.
ADR: Right.
JJ:
So I came into, at the end of the day, I came into the Young Lords when they
[00:45:00] had the first meeting.
ADR: Right.
JJ:
But I was still--
ADR: But that fight.
JJ:
But you guys had a couple of fights before I got into it.
ADR: Well, what I’m trying to say is that the way the thing occurred, revisiting that
particular thing. Lupe, get whatever argument or however it came out to be, it
starts at noon, and in order not to get into any trouble with school or anything
else, it’s like, we’ll meet after school for the fight. Okay. I know that a fight’s
going to take place. Lupe’s going to fight this guy. All right, so then I’m there.
JJ:
How old were you then?
ADR: Ten, 12 years old, or 12, probably 12 years old. Probably 12 years old. So I’m
there and there were other (inaudible), the other kids from school, knowing that
from the class, I mean, people were asking from the school itself if there’s going
to be a fight, but you’re forgetting something that I-- not that you’re forgetting.
[00:46:00] I need (inaudible) that, remember Orlando came from a large family of
brothers and sisters, actually more on the brother’s side. So Lupe among the
boys was the youngest one at that time. I don’t know if the family ended up
27
�having any other boys, but at that point, Lupe was the youngest. Then came
Orlando. So Lupe and Orlando, are like one year apart, and then it was Hector.
Hector ended up dying a couple of years later of a heart attack. Now, I actually
got along better during the period that I ended, because Hector was at school
and he was older, I don’t know, maybe two years older. I’m not sure I can recall
that. It was probably two years older, or I would’ve to say probably two years
older than Orlando. And I actually got along better with him than I did with
Orlando. As I said, my initial contact with Orlando is we didn’t get along at all.
And maybe, like I said, it’s got something to do with our character [00:47:00] that
we were prone to react to each other immediately and not taking it, whatever. So
when the fight, as I said, Lupe’s going to have the fight, so we went out there.
We were out there. I know Hector came and Hector now, if I’m correctly
recalling, and I was already fighting because what happened, Hector showed up.
Orlando had not shown up at that point because he didn’t know his brother was
going to have a fight that somebody must have ran or something in and said,
your brother’s having a fight. So what happened is I said, the guy had either
knocked down Lupe, which at that point, or push him or he was losing the fight.
At that point, I jumped in. I knew that Lupe was going to get his ass kicked, and I
wasn’t going to let that happen. At that point, my reaction, no, not because I
wanted him to do this, was my friend. Okay, this was my best buddy and I wasn’t
about to let him get his ass kicked. So my reaction was I took it immediately,
jumped in and [00:48:00] started hitting the other guy and went on with, we
continued to have a-- I ended up beating the crap out of the guy, maybe
28
�because I took him by surprise. I’m not going to try to take credit as a badass or
anything because as I said, I did jump in. He wasn’t expecting that. And maybe I
have the initial initiative and being able to start hitting him quicker than he could
withstand. So I mean, sometimes that happens in the fight, not because we
happen to be badasses. It’s just the surprise attack that things occurred. But
when Orlando showed up, the fight was over already. And when Orlando’s there,
I know that Hector was there, and then he came with Lupe what had happened,
Orlando took a different attitude towards me. He came and said, thank you for
basically saying, thanks for helping my brother. And it was not no big deal,
nothing. No big deal was made out of that or anything other than that. But then
the gradualness, remember I don’t know timetable of what happened. [00:49:00]
I know that then he started hanging around in the area that I was, and again, not
because of me, I think he started hanging around there because in drifting,
wherever you claim that he was at, I don’t know, but I know that in the area it was
just down the block. When we were in there, he was no more different than I was
from my house, from Fremont, which I was closer to.
JJ:
Where were you living at? What address were you living in? What address were
you living in?
ADR: Well, the house still stands, I don’t know. I’m forgetting the number right now.
JJ:
I lived at 1909 Fremont.
ADR: Fremont and Armitage, I was probably a quarter.
JJ:
So where did you live? I lived at 1909 Fremont and 1604 or something, 1600
Dayton. We lived near North Avenue and Dayton. Then we lived near Dayton
29
�and Willow, and then we moved to 1909 Freemont. [00:50:00] And then we went
to 2117 Bissell.
ADR: Well, on Fremont when I lived.
JJ:
So where did you live? Where did you live?
ADR: I lived over at that time, the period of time we didn’t tend to move around. I was
on Fremont, which is a couple of houses down, a red Victorian home.
JJ:
By Wisconsin? By Wisconsin?
ADR: No, near Armitage.
JJ:
Okay. So that was right there.
ADR: Armitage almost closer.
JJ:
I was half a block down? We were on the same block.
ADR: Less than a half a block. Okay, okay. Okay. Orlando was on Bissell.
JJ:
Bissell, yeah.
ADR: Okay. And he was almost all the way down. Almost all the way down. So the
distance for him, like me to walk down to the corner, if you said that, this is
Wisconsin, that street-JJ:
I lived near Wisconsin. I lived near Wisconsin. He lived near Willow--
ADR: Well, the point I’m trying to make is that-JJ:
Before that I lived at Dayton and Willow. So we all lived there. We were all from
that same area.
ADR: But again, what I’m pointing out to you is when we were met [00:51:00] at that
age in time, all we did is we would go to that corner. I mean, if I came down from
30
�my house after eating and he would leave this house as I’m eating, and when we
came in, the group of people-JJ:
I didn’t hang around with Orlando at that time.
ADR: I know, I know that. That’s what I’m talking.
JJ:
I think you were hanging around with him.
ADR: Right, we congregated. And what I’m trying to point out to you, we congregated
and this-JJ:
We were all in the same area. We just--
ADR: You lived, but you guys were not, and as I said, we’re only half block away. We
not, well, I’m trying to be more specific because now-- Fermin and Benny.
JJ:
Where did they live?
ADR: They lived, they both lived on Bissell.
JJ:
They lived on Bissell too? No, on Halsted.
ADR: No, no, no, no. Wait a minute, wait a minute. Benny lived on Bissell, closer,
almost parallel to me. But he was on Bissell, closer to Armitage on Bissell.
JJ:
Okay. I know later on they lived on Halsted.
ADR: And actually we might’ve been living back to back because he lived in the
building. [00:52:00]
JJ:
So we’re only like a half a block away.
ADR: I can pinpoint it. I’m going to say Benny lived on Bissell, it would’ve been the
east side of Bissell Street, close to Armitage. I lived on Fremont, but on the west
side of Fremont. Again, close to Armitage.
JJ:
I didn’t even know that. I didn’t know that.
31
�ADR: Fermin, okay, Fermin lived on Clifton.
JJ:
I thought you always lived near Lakeview in (inaudible). That’s good. I didn’t
know that.
ADR: So, and Fermin was in Clifton.
JJ:
Okay. Oh yeah. Fermin was further.
ADR: But the friendship that developed between from the very beginning was that
Benny and Benny and Fermin hung around together. So all I know is that when
we hung around together, Orlando and myself, within the group that I’m talking
over here, Benny was not around. Okay. Neither was Fermin. [00:53:00] But
we knew each other from school. In other words, the attending classes in there,
that’s where we tended to know each other.
JJ:
David Rivera lived on Fremont.
ADR: David Rivera comes much later.
JJ:
I know, but David Rivera is Orlando’s cousin.
ADR: Correct. Well, I mean, might be-JJ:
His cousin.
ADR: But he comes later. He comes later.
JJ:
I know, but what I’m saying is these are the Young Lords original founders.
ADR: Yes.
JJ:
And we’re all living in the same area.
ADR: Right. He comes in part later on. But the original, in other words, at the very
beginning-JJ:
You were hanging early with Orlando. You were hanging.
32
�ADR: Before that (inaudible) it was, and he comes later.
JJ:
Stipulate today, I’ll stipulate today.
ADR: Well, the point I’m trying to make, you’re an attorney. So when you’re telling me
who started the Young Lords, I mean that’s what we always said. The two guys
that started the Young Lords was Orlando.
JJ:
I won’t stipulate to that completely.
ADR: Okay.
JJ:
I won’t stipulate to that completely. But I say that you hung around with Orlando.
I [00:54:00] think that the meeting took place in Arnold’s with the seven founders
and I think the Young Lords came (inaudible) at least he’s the one that recruited
me.
ADR: Well, let me put it this way. You can’t have-JJ:
He recruited me. You might’ve been together. But what I’m saying, he recruited
me. So I looked at him as the founder. But if you and him were together, that’s
fine. That’s fine. I think we were all the original founders.
ADR: Wait, I ask you something, see what you’re forgetting. Are we forgetting another
individual?
JJ:
Are you saying that you founded the --
ADR: Who was the first again, who was the first president of the Young Lords?
JJ:
We said there was the first person because Orlando didn’t want it. I was voting
for Orlando, but he didn’t want it.
33
�ADR: So there was never any doubt about Vicentes becoming, let me, I’m going to put
you on the spot on this one. I’m going to put you on the spot on. Where did the
name the Young Lords evolve from? Who suggested the name?
JJ:
I [00:55:00] know that we were talking there and there was some group in New
York called the Majestic Lords, and then they were also the Vice Lords.
ADR: The one that suggested was Vicentes’ cousin and one of the little-JJ:
He had come, he had lived in New York. Okay.
ADR: He’s the one that suggested.
JJ:
But am I correct about the Majestic Lords?
ADR: Okay. But this is much later. I mean, when I’m setting in the timetable, this takes
place later. Not at the point. I’m not going back in there. I’m not-JJ:
I wasn’t voting (inaudible). That’s that. I agree with everything. Well, I was
agreeing with--
ADR: What I’m trying to tell in here. You can’t have one thing without the other that
would’ve ended up producing what it produced. Okay. That’s all I’m trying to
point out. Okay.
JJ:
He was Joey--
ADR: Which (inaudible) which, wait a, hold on.
JJ:
He was our first president, right?
ADR: Wait a minute.
JJ:
Where did the meeting take place? [00:56:00] Now I ask you.
ADR: At the Arnold Upper Grade Center.
JJ:
That’s where the meeting took place.
34
�ADR: That’s where we had the meeting. So that’s where, not at the YMCA. We did
not have no meeting.
JJ:
Arnold Upper Grade Center is where we selected the name Young Lords.
ADR: Yes.
JJ:
And that’s where we became Young Lords.
ADR: Yes.
JJ:
And that’s where we had the seven original members.
ADR: That’s where we had the initial meeting. We had the meeting and all that under.
JJ:
What date was that? Was that fall, summer?
ADR: I can’t, I mean, I know it had to have been warm weather.
JJ:
Spring probably. Probably the spring. Was it the school or after?
ADR: Right. But the point is that that leads to the point that you asked the other
question much later. Remember among the group, I’m the only Mexican like,
and Guzman, at that time, at the very beginning, no, Vicentes is the leader. We’d
chosen him as the leader.
JJ:
And I think we chose him because looked Italian. But he was--
ADR: [00:57:00] Wait a minute, we chose him. We chose Vicentes as the leader. We
then basically, not basically, as we started to grow there were other suggestions.
You had made some certain suggestions. I don’t recall what it was.
JJ:
They didn’t listen to me anyway.
ADR: No, no. Listen, wait, had no, you’re forgetting about something that occurred.
You weren’t there because as I said you were in another school.
JJ:
Okay.
35
�ADR: What happened was that I had suggested something at that point, just like the
other feelings I had. Remember I’m the Mexican, I didn’t feel, this is like at the
beginning because Guzman was-JJ:
Were we making a big issue that you were Mexican?
ADR: No, no. Let me finish.
JJ:
You were all gang bangers.
ADR: No, no. Let me finish. Let me finish.
JJ:
Alright. Okay.
ADR: I had made a suggestion on something. So Orlando, well, his attitude was,
[00:58:00] if that’s what you want, fine. So I had gotten into an [inferment?] at
that point he suggested, in other words, in other words, there was some question
as to what I wanted. I can’t recall what the issue was. But really what it came
down is to the trust that evolved, that ended up evolving from ourselves. So at
that point, Orlando didn’t give one way or other, he didn’t give a shit. And he
said, well, that’s what you want, whatever. I mean, the attitude that he took in so
many ways that responded to it, I felt kind of out place at that point. So really this
is when I was going to me, in my mind, I was going to quit. Okay? So the next
day in school, Fermin and Benny and then Orlando, he said, you know what? In
other words, I think what they did that they talked among themselves and said, if
this is what you want, [00:59:00] you’re going to have it. Because it is like, we’re
brothers. So Guzman was opposing what I wanted to do. And then he comes
back, he was all fucking pissed off because the group, in other words, went
against him. And the fact that I was Mexican played a role because he would
36
�say, “He’s a fucking Mexican. I’m Puerto Rican. Why are you guys backing a
Mexican?”
JJ:
Because he came--
ADR: Wait, hold on, I’m not finished.
JJ:
--he came from Philadelphia.
ADR: So then as we were in school, remember Guzman had dropped a grade below.
He was actually a year older but because when he came from wherever he came
from-JJ:
(inaudible)
ADR: He did, he then-JJ:
But nobody paid attention to him.
ADR: --he dropped me. I was in the bathroom and he made a remark to me about,
“You’re going to get your fucking way,” whatever. And I walked away from him. I
mean fuck it, whatever. And I made the mistake when we were in the, we had
come out of the gym and I went into the bathroom and I had [01:00:00] going
down to wash my face and motherfucker came, and yeah, on the back, I hit me in
the neck and then hit my head.
JJ:
And you’re still worried about that?
ADR: Well, I turned around and I-JJ:
You still feel guilty about that? So what?
ADR: No, let me finish. So I turned around and started fighting him. So when the
teachers walked in, I mean, we were considered to be going into battle.
JJ:
So you fought him. You fought him. Right. So what.
37
�ADR: What I did is I turned around and I squeezed-- because the only thing I could do
was squeeze his fucking balls.
JJ:
I won’t forget him.
ADR: No, you asked the question. You got to finish this. So then no, John had me in a
headlock in there, and the teachers walk in and they heard that what had
happened. I mean, they come in there and obviously they broke us apart. And
then I’m walking around but because he hit me, I hit this outside of, my face was
red. (inaudible) Everybody -- (inaudible). So then at that point I’m like, I’m not
fucking, because we were going to have a fight. So [01:01:00] then we went out
and I mean, it must have been like the whole school (inaudible) going to have it
out. So we go across the street into the alley before this is when they turned
around and I said, “Fair is fair,” in my mind, the son of a bitch. I guess you don’t
want me to swear, but I’m thinking this motherfucker jumping from behind. Right.
JJ:
He, he stole on you. Right.
ADR: So what I did, as he got near me, I kicked him on the balls as hard as I could.
JJ:
Paralyze him.
ADR: And then I went at him and all he could do, because he was (inaudible), he
grabbed me and he could hurt me. Man, I’m pounding the shit out of him on the
face, because I had my other hand free. And I mean, it was a big, big deal. But
he made a technical mistake because in the terms of the (inaudible) as fighters, I
was not Orlando. So then he had to live up in [01:02:00] there that Sal almost
beat the shit out of you. And he could complain. But the mother-- that I kicked
him on the balls because the point is you dropped me from-- you started, you
38
�broke the rule. So there was nothing for me to honor to treat you differently
giving you a fair fight. When he jumped me on the back, he broke the rules.
JJ:
He jumped a Young Lord.
ADR: And he gave me the right.
JJ:
He jumped a Young Lord, which he wasn’t supposed--
ADR: Well, not so much I was a Young Lord but that broke the, that to me was, that
solidified our friendship as the original Young Lords that somehow perhaps I
think was that we would stick together. No matter what happened to any of us,
we would stick for each other because then afterwards, anything that would
happen to any of the among ourselves, we always reacted. We reacted to what
happened. As soon as, like I said, I can go back. The thing with the Paragons,
all I can tell you what I saw and what I knew, what happened that night. I know
that I keep emphasizing, took four of the Paragons down. You mentioned
[01:03:00] there was another fight. I don’t, I mean not. But I know damn well that
night. And he took, knocked down Crazy Johnny twice, knocked him out
practically. I’m not saying he put him out unconscious or anything like that, but
knocked him down with the punches. The punches took Crazy Johnny down.
And just as much as that kind of thing, Santos, his reputation of being the
baddest son of a bitch no longer worked. Years later, wait a minute, years later, I
had another fight with Santos. Same thing. We were this, when we used to
hang around on Armitage, what they call from the song, that restaurant that was
owned by a Mexican couple, Sugar Shack.
JJ:
Oh, the Sugar Shack. Yeah.
39
�ADR: You remember the Sugar Shack? Okay. The Sugar Shack. We were in there.
That’s where we crazy-- met Irish.
JJ:
Where was the Sugar Shack at? Where was the Sugar Shack at? That was
more--
ADR: Close to across the street from where the [01:04:00] fire station’s at Larrabee, it
would’ve been on Armitage west of, almost immediately west of Larrabee.
JJ:
Okay, okay.
ADR: But again, some other week, whatever it was, I had it out again with Santos.
Now, the funny thing about this fight now was, remember by that time we used to
have the Cuban with the color Cuban high heel, they have boot that we were
wearing at that time. So I go out. At that point it was like, okay, let’s take it
outside. The fight got started with an argument I had with Santos, and let’s take
it outside. We went outside and started fighting, and this time it was a fist fight.
But I remember that in throwing a punch at him, or I ended up, because I was
wearing, the shoes that I was wearing wasn’t conductive for a fight. It wasn’t
very smart of me. But anyway, the point is that I slipped and I fell, and before
Santos could react [01:05:00] to come at me, Orlando jumped in and then took
over and it started pounding on Santos. So Santos was forced to fight Orlando
because Orlando basically, no, he’s not going to, and he took him out and beat
the shit out of Santos. After that, Santos completely drifted away from us
because we had totally embarrassed his ass. He had wanted to be, I don’t know
what reason they didn’t let him become, because he was maybe too boisterous
or whatever. He originally wanted to be part of the Black Eagles. They didn’t let
40
�him. That’s why he became part of us. And he thought, well, I’m going to run the
gang because I’m the older guy here and all this and that. It didn’t work. So at
the very beginning in the takeover, we would’ve, to give the credit to Santos
would’ve been the first person that ever tried to take the Young Lords, control of
the Young Lords that didn’t succeed. Then later on, as I said, as we started
growing in reputation and things, we talked.
JJ:
[01:06:00] So you’re saying the original seven kind kept the group together. So
the original seven always kept the group together.
ADR: Right.
JJ:
Is that what you’re saying?
ADR: I mean, I think that what I’m reflecting on is when you asked the question about
the trust.
JJ:
The trust, right.
ADR: Okay. You used the word trust. I’m not sure that that’s the correct, I’m not
debating the word. I’m just, we’re using, but I think the trust in there, what
brought us together to create that individual-- I’m not arguing the word, the word
trust, but I think there might be another word that gave us that cohesiveness, that
if anybody challenged that particular group in it. That group was expanded to
include Ralph and some of the individuals that became part of, in other words,
they became part, in other words, the initial group expanded not by large
numbers, but by small numbers expanded beyond the seven.
JJ:
Right, right, right.
41
�ADR: Okay. In other words, the challenge [01:07:00] though, it can be debated
because in talking to Orlando in the future, I mean what happened later on is to
how that trust was created. All I can say is that in the years, there were times
that Orlando would ask me, I need you here, and I would react. I didn’t have to
ask twice, what it was about or what it involved. I simply was there.
JJ:
That’s what I’m saying. That’s what we did. We did do that with the trust.
ADR: Okay. That’s what I mean. I mean, the point is that the thing with New York, not
that we were pissed off at you or anything. You were out there and it’s like,
Orlando, Sal, you got to stop Andre.
JJ:
Right.
ADR: He said, I got to go. He said, because I was going to go to the meeting, I was
going to go there. And he said, no. He said, because he tell me, I don’t examine
the exact words, but he says, no, you got to deal with Andre because Andre
wants to do something. [01:08:00] And he says, I’ll take the meeting. I says, I’ll
deal with what’s got to be dealt over there. But he said, you got to get him out of
this mentality. Basically what he told me. So I didn’t debate the issue. I just
said, okay, that’s what we need to do. This is how we’re going to handle it.
JJ:
You’re talking about the split between the Chicago Young Lords and the New
York Young Lords.
ADR: The what now?
JJ:
The split between the Chicago Young Lords and the New York Young Lords.
Andre wanted to do something.
ADR: What do I remember about the split?
42
�JJ:
No, no, I’m saying, are you telling-- I’m just saying this is what you’re talking
about, right? You’re talking about the split.
ADR: Yeah.
JJ:
And then Andre wanted to do something.
ADR: Yes.
JJ:
Okay.
ADR: Exactly.
JJ:
He didn’t agree with it so he wanted to do something but Orlando and you
stopped it. That’s what you’re saying.
ADR: Well, what happened was, what actually happened is that Andre had approached
Orlando on what he [01:09:00] wanted to do.
JJ:
Okay.
ADR: Okay. Orlando immediately realized that that wasn’t a good idea.
JJ:
Right because we were respecting, Orlando knew that I was meeting with them
and we were respecting, they were our guests. They were Young Lords too. I
look at ’em as Young Lords.
ADR: Well, there were certain things that we already were-- at the point the thing-- the
way it came down, they were already aware of certain things that were taking
place, and quite honestly, not all of us.
JJ:
And that was not a gang fight. We were not gangbanging.
ADR: It was not gang fight. Nobody at that point, quite honestly-JJ:
We were political. We’re not--
43
�ADR: It was political, but we were concerned about you giving in to what they wanted
to do. Okay?
JJ:
Right.
ADR: So in essence, I can’t find, in other words, we didn’t, I don’t want to use the word
trust. I’m being [01:10:00] cordial here. The point is that we were-- there were
doubts as to what you were going to do. In other words, we weren’t sure that you
were going to act in our best interest. And so the point was, the reason Orlando
wanted to make sure he was at the meeting was because he wanted to control
you. Make sure that you won’t do anything-- in other words, concede anything or
give anything into New York. That was really why he, instead of him, he could
have said, I’ll go deal with Andre. You go take in. If he would’ve, in other words,
more confidence in what the outcome would’ve been.
JJ:
He wanted stay in the meeting.
ADR: So Orlando wanted to make sure that what you did or what didn’t do with
something that, in other words, that you wouldn’t do anything stupid. I mean,
that’s not a right word. That’s not right. In other words, we didn’t know-- the
reaction is we weren’t sure how you were going to react. Orlando felt he could
better deal with you, dealing with you on that issue by being there. That’s the
reason nobody’s ever asked, “Why didn’t Orlando [01:11:00] go and deal with
Andre?”
JJ:
All right.
ADR: Okay. Andre, I mean, Orlando, was concerned about you, how you were going
to deal with that issue. So my job felt that you got to take care of Andre, that he
44
�doesn’t do what he wants to do. Okay? In other words, you got to stop him.
Okay? That’s how that occurred that night.
JJ:
And basically what we agreed is that they were revolutionary compañeros.
ADR: Have I agreed to what now?
JJ:
Basically what I said that they were revolutionary compañeros, that they were our
guests and we were not going to attack them.
ADR: Well, personally, we didn’t think, me and Orlando, I mean, I have to say, because
Orlando, we didn’t think much of New York. We didn’t think much of New York.
JJ:
Okay. I agree with you.
ADR: I mean, the point is you were more, what we saw is an issue, not a problem.
That word would be issue. The issue we saw [01:12:00] with you is that you
were [nine slaps?]. Okay? Remember, you’re forgetting that Orlando had
slapped not once, but had slapped them twice on different occasions, the guy
from New York, when he mouthed off to Orlando.
JJ:
Oh, you’re talking about Yoruba.
ADR: Yoruba, exactly.
JJ:
Okay. Alright.
ADR: So we never-JJ:
I thought they was angry then. I was out of town when that happened.
ADR: The point is, if you would’ve been there, you would’ve criticized. You had a
tendency to criticize-- you did it to me-- and you’re (inaudible). In other words,
you took the feud-- I’m not criticizing in the sense that, do not understand why
that was done. Okay.
45
�JJ:
Okay, what view would I have, what view?
ADR: Well, your logic was proper, but on the issue involved was impractical. That’s the
best way I can, you would’ve said, well, we, Latinos, we should not be fighting
each other. We agree with you. I mean, I’m very willing. But when you’re
dealing with somebody that’s, in other words, [01:13:00] harming the group, you
weren’t willing to take, in other words, be forcible. And the issue of how it had to
be dealt with. That’s what I’m saying about, he always wanted to play the nice,
nice role. You didn’t take the responsibility for having to do the hard things that
ended up getting the results of what the things we needed to do. And that is a
criticism that not only me, but I can take Orlando, would have the same criticism
that he had about you is that you want always be, you want everybody like to us,
it was like you want everybody to like you. And we didn’t agree with you on that
particular issue. So Yoruba, Yoruba had challenged a lot.
JJ:
I’ll agree 60 percent. Sixty-three percent. I’ll agree 60 percent. But that’s your
perspective. That’s fine.
ADR: Well, Yoruba made the mistake of mouthing off in a bad way to Orlando. And
that’s why he told him, in other words, to pay him back. He went and with his
open hand, slapped him, [01:14:00] humiliated him and telling him, he says,
“You’re not good enough for me to punch you because you’re a fucking pussy.”
Basically.
JJ:
Well, how did this start? I mean, what was it? How did it start?
ADR: Well, because remember, the New York guys had this thing that they didn’t even
throw it out openly. “We’re the educated ones.” You used to throw out, these
46
�guys are in college and big deal. You know what I mean? The practicality, what
I think you were forgetting.
JJ:
But they had people from the streets too.
ADR: Fine. They didn’t have the balls.
JJ:
No. The people, they had balls themselves.
ADR: Okay, fine. They had balls. Okay.
JJ:
We grew up in a different way than they did. So because of that, we looked at
them differently. I mean, we grew up differently than they did because they grew
up in New York and we grew up in Chicago, and they looked at us differently too.
I [01:15:00] mean, vice versa. And I tried to, even before-- that wasn’t the first
time that I was a mediator because even in the gang, I had to be mediator. To
me, we were all Young Lords to me, and I’m trying to find a way to keep us as
Young Lords.
ADR: But you’re forgetting. You’re forgetting. You’re forgetting. Even at that time.
JJ:
And it wasn’t easy. It wasn’t easy because I was--
ADR: Yeah, but see, what you’re forgetting is that these people did not have for us,
some did not have the interest of the organization.
JJ:
There was individuals, there was individuals within them and individuals within
us. The majority of the group wanted to stay together, but there were individuals
on both sides that had problems.
ADR: That might have been so.
JJ:
That happens in any organization.
47
�ADR: But see, when they broke away, they proved the point. I mean, the point is what
we, I mean from the perspective of, and [01:16:00] again, some of the
individuals, and we opposed a particular idea. I mean, believe me, even
immediately, we’re finding out that you allowed ’em to keep the name, the
younger, your justification was, well become more recognizable name. The rest
of us. I can’t speak for everybody, but I can’t speak for number of individuals, we
thought you screwed up.
JJ:
Okay. Speaking for yourself, how did you feel about it?
ADR: I think that was a big mistake. And I’m not the only one, but I’m speaking for
myself. I thought that was dumb because you gave them, (inaudible) they never
had, they did not do-- A lot of the stuff that was done that they took credit for
were was done under the Young Lords, it was done by us. The takeovers, the
fights, the issues with the police, the other things we had, all of those things, the
creation of the programs that we had-- breakfast program, the healthcare, other
things we had, we had all these things. And you pissed us. [01:17:00] I’m saying
not only myself, but you pissed some of us off. What the hell are you doing
letting them keep the goddamn name? They didn’t contribute shit to the name.
They didn’t go through the struggle. I mean, you mentioned in of doing the things
we done when the police, whenever they would’ve, people getting hurt and
getting killed, where were they? How many Young Lords got killed? Okay. And
one of our guys, how many times ended up in jail for being Young Lords and got
locked up and got shot at? So when you gave the name, we thought, and I said,
I’m using the word we because I was not the only one. Okay? We thought you
48
�screwed up. Totally screwed up because you gave them a platform they did not
have, that would not have had, if that name would’ve been taken away from
them. Okay? That’s what you don’t realize the mistake you made, you created
that problem, okay? Inadvertently [01:18:00] you created. You thought you were
doing something good that came back to bite your ass because the Young Lords
party would’ve never existed. Where they wouldn’t go, where it go. If we
would’ve said, no, you can’t use the goddamn name, what are they going to do?
Maybe we would’ve forced ’em to become something better, and that would’ve
been good, but you didn’t give ’em that opportunity. You allowed them to, they
copied everything. I mean, all the great things that what the Young Lords, they
were being copied. You allowed that to happen. Nobody. I mean, this is
something you have to take that, I mean, as a criticism, that you have to take the
blame for that because you’re the one that created that problem, not the rest of
us. And honestly, and as a friend, you did a disservice to the people that went to
jail. Did a disservice to the people that got shot. Because everything in the
paper over the years, what have I been complaining about over the years? I
mean, when asked being involved and stuff, I said, I keep (inaudible) this is all
fucking bullshit. [01:19:00] Fucking lies that has been written about what
happened, how it happened, how it occurred, and you keep telling me it’s going
to get straightened out. Where does it getting straightened that New York done
that and all this other crap and all so-called experts, they knew about the activity
when they never fucking participated in any of the goddamn-- hardcore issues
that we had to deal with. All the speakers that I seen and things that go on,
49
�secondary or third meaning come from secondhand information, not from the
participants. None of the things that I’ve seen in there were actual participants to
say, “Here I did that. I got shot, or I went to jail for this, or this happened over
here, or I had to take this guy down because of that.” Where was the guy there
that can sit there and do that? None of the actual participants that did the things
that were done are ended up participating in this situation. They all talk
[01:20:00] about how badasses they were, but nothing -- where the fuck are
they? What were they doing? Hiding behind the fucking end of back of the line
when we were fighting, who went to the fights that had to be dealt with when
somebody got attacked. In the beginning, all of a sudden it was Orlando, myself,
Andre, when you say you’re right, I mean, I mentioned because it always comes
from (inaudible), but Andre, the rest of us that we were Richie, Popo, some of the
other guys, we were the ones that were dealing with the fucking bullshit. Much of
what happens in life. They ain’t got the other ones, the speakers. Well, I
represent, I do this, I do that, or this is going on, and what the fuck? Where were
you motherfucker when you were there, when we needed to, really needed you
to do the things that that needed to be had? Why did you coin the word of the
rally Young Lords? Where did that come from, Cha-Cha, if not from the fucking
fact that the only thing when we were holding a rally, when the party was had,
[01:21:00] instead of having the actual participants benefit from the goddamn
things that were done. Did they ever benefit from that? Maybe with a lockup in
jail? What happened to, I reminded we forget about-- look at Carlos. Look how
he ended up, he ended up in goddamn jail doing 20 to life.
50
�JJ:
Which Carlos?
ADR: Carlos Perez. Did you know he was in jail?
JJ:
Oh, no, no, no, no. This Carlos?
ADR: Andres, no, I mean Raymond’s brother.
JJ:
Oh, Carlos Montanes. Oh, he’s in jail?
ADR: Yeah.
JJ:
Oh, no, I didn’t know that.
ADR: There was some of the other guys that ended up doing time. The point is we’re
asking is the kind of end-- I’m juggling in here and not may even making any
sense of what I’m saying.
JJ:
No, no. You’re making sense.
ADR: But the point is that this thing-- [01:22:00]
JJ:
I’m listening to what you’re saying. You’re making sense. Again, I see there’s
side two. I see a different side too. But I definitely feel what you’re saying. I
mean, you’re making sense. I think you’re correct in a lot of things there. I think
a lot of repression, a lot of problems that took place here were not given the
recognition that they deserve, that we deserve here, that the people in Chicago
deserve. But then again, I think that they were contributing in a different light in
New York in a different--
ADR: I’m not a, when you say the contribution--I’m not saying-JJ:
I don’t blame the cadre in New York for that, because there was several
branches of Young Lords in New York that came together. There was some
street people like Pickles that was from the streets that when I went there, he
51
�was complaining that the students are not [01:23:00] listening to what I’m saying.
And so I can relate to him from the street because I said, well, you know what
they have to listen to you because this is the people’s movement. It’s for people
from the streets. But Pickles joined with them. In fact, (inaudible) came out of
that, and he was under central committee. So I mean, there was some mistakes
made on all parts and people were trying to divide us up, infiltrating, but we also
made mistakes too. I mean, like you said, we’re Young Lords. We can’t be
slapping other Young Lords. You understand what I’m saying? Do you believe
that we should, me and you have argued many, many, many times and we never
slapped each other.
ADR: Look, it wasn’t-JJ:
Have me and you ever slapped each other?
ADR: No, I’m trying to make, I’m mentioning that. I think we’ve argued. All right. Was
it on the face value? Was it a good thing? No. Okay. [01:24:00] I can agree
with that. But at the same time, the question, the follow up question, was it
necessary? Answer is yes. All right. Because in certain situations, this is again
in the study of the Young Lords.
JJ:
(inaudible) beat up another human being.
ADR: No, no. Lemme make my point. Because as we’re saying in there, when you
look at the Young Lords.
JJ:
We broke out of that. We said, we don’t want to deal with gangbanging stuff.
ADR: Right. No, I am getting to that. I mean, what I’m trying to say from here, listen,
what I think, what I’m referring to that those particular issues, what point I’m
52
�trying to make out of that is an explanation. When I say in the question of what
I’m asking, was it a justifiable thing to do? I mean, was it a good thing? The
answer is no. That’s what I said, but there has to be a follow-up question that
answers that it was something that was necessary to do. And I say the answer
to that is yes. Now I have to explain that. In order to explain that-JJ:
[01:25:00] And then he was our guest.
ADR: --well, here’s what I’m trying to-- bear with me, and in the moment, you’re making
me forget the point that I’m trying to make here. But the thing I’m trying to say is
that our group was no different from other groups in terms of what I was referring
to. Somebody was to come and actually study us, say why did these things
occur as they would find out? I mean, this is what about laying out on the table
and those issues is too, in other words, somebody saying, I mean, maybe a
hundred years from now when there has been a contradiction on the part of the
youngers that in other words, a member slaps another member in that kind of a
situation and study. In other words, in other words, when there’ve been studies
to why this was done, you’re going to find many groups that these interactions
that take place in order for the group to succeed. This is what I’m saying, where
it becomes necessary to do the things, or you become too placent, in other
words, in certain areas, that makes the strength [01:26:00] of the organization.
So what I’m trying to get at, I’m going to make a statement that’s not going to
make any sense to you whatsoever, but I want you from time to time to come
back and ask myself to explain whether it’s here or any other time into the future.
And my statement is this, educated people are stupid people. I want you to keep
53
�that in mind, and I’ll repeat it again. Educated people are stupid people.
Because if you look at that and just in life, they’re going to find how the puzzle
comes together when you can put that puzzle when you’re looking at things,
because it has to do right now with the economy, when I’m referring to that, is all
the educated people that came in there, they came in up with all the economists.
I mean, if you look at the economy, and I’m not going to get into it, but I’m
making, again, it’s an example, an analogy that all troubles of the United States
[01:27:00] that we end up having right now is based on what the economists and
what they were trying to do and giving us the (inaudible) pictures that existed,
obviously. And anybody that’s listening to what I’m saying is going to say, well,
this guy’s full of shit. What is he talking about? But what I’m trying to say is that
the economists a lot had a lot of fault and giving us the rosy picture, but a
system, how it works, not realize it. Because in the end, because they’re
educated, you can’t tell ’em. This is what I’m referring to, all the stupidity of the
things that the educated people, this is what got us in fucking trouble right now.
It wasn’t the average person. I mean, and we’re struggling to get out of this hole
we find ourselves in today because they’re too stupid to understand that the
middle class, in other words, the average worker needs to make money in order
to survive. You’re forgetting, and I’m not asking, I’m going to ask the question,
but I’m answering the question. Why the idea of what to have. Why was it that
somebody came up with the idea that here in the United States, for example, that
in having a welfare system, you had to give money to the [01:28:00] poor person
and others didn’t have a job, didn’t have anything. Why was that person given
54
�money? I said, I’m asking the question, but I’m also answering. The reason that
the money was given food stamps, in order, and a check, not a lot of money, but
a check that was given to them at the end of the month was so they could go and
continue to be productive in society by buying goods instead of begging for the
damn goods. Because if somebody buys a can of food, that means there’s going
to be a factory worker doing that soup, putting it together, the raw material that
has to be produced in order to make the can, in order to put the label on it as
much as putting the food on it and putting people to work. Because if the poor
people keep increasing and they can’t buy anything, they don’t have anything,
what’s going to happen? We’re going to become a third rate nation. Well, that’s
what I’m referring about smart people being, I mean, educated people. Correct
myself, educated people being stupid. What are they doing? Outsourcing all
that goddamn jobs out of the country. [01:29:00] Is the Chinese buying our
goods? I mean, the Chinese got, I mean, getting philosophical, but the import,
it’s over a billion persons in China. They represent basically one third of the
world population, Cha-Cha. And you think with all the goods in there that they’re
going to be able to, where are we seeing the production when everything’s been
sent to be built by these people? Every product, every material, everything that’s
being done, labor. That’s why labor put a label. We want to know where the
damn product is being made and everything that’s been made in China. But
what is China buying? Educated person is going to say, “Hey, China’s buying
shitload of stuff from the United States.” You know what? You’re right. But you
know you’re an idiot because they’re buying the fucking companies. They’re
55
�buying the goddamn product. What happens in the book, if we go, their cash
flow goes back to China, it doesn’t stay here in the United States. They own the
companies. [01:30:00] They own the land. They own land in the United States.
JJ:
The Chinese.
ADR: Oh, the goods. Yeah. I mean, I’m not saying they buying whole (inaudible), but
they own land. So the buying their goods, the buying is going back to China. I
don’t mean to get on China, on China, make some against the Chinese or
anything. But the point is the logic of the educated person without going back
with the Young Lords. And what I’m referring to correlation here is to me, the
educated person was the Young Lords from New York, and they were stupid.
JJ:
Some were educated. Again. So when I went there--
ADR: Fine. I mean, I make it, I’m generalizing.
JJ:
You’re generalizing. Okay. And what I’m saying is when I went there and saw
the Young Lords in New York, they were just like we were I, they were just like
we were, the people in the leadership were, yes, a lot of ’em were [01:31:00]
students, but the cadre were just like we were. And we also had students here
too. I mean Omar or other people were students. We had students with us.
[Victor Chavarria?] was a student, [Marta Chavarria?], (inaudible), (inaudible), all
the doctors, the attorneys they were working with.
ADR: But the people we had in there rose to their levels. If you’re going to talk about,
for example.
JJ:
My job as the head of the group was to try to keep the group together. I’m
coming from my job, which is, and today you’re a union organizer. You organize
56
�unions, and so your job is to keep the union together. So I was doing the same
thing at that time. I’m saying, I see that we got a bad problem here. Somebody
got slapped and now we’re going to divide a movement [01:32:00] that was for
self-determination for Latinos. So I’m looking-ADR: Cha-Cha, they didn’t have, no -JJ:
I’m looking at our ideology. I’m looking at our belief system and it is going to be
torn apart. And what are we going to do about this? And I have to take a
position knowing that I come from this group here, the Young Lords, but at the
same time, these other Young Lords are Young Lords too. And so I’m just
saying, I’m not saying it was right or wrong.
ADR: Trying to justify.
JJ:
This is oral history.
ADR: You’re trying to justify it. Look, the point is New York has nothing without us.
New York had never had anything without us.
JJ:
What you said, explain my part. I’m trying to explain my part. I won’t justify it
because this is your--
ADR: Go ahead. Go ahead.
JJ:
So my position was how can we keep us together? And that’s what I was trying
to do. And I know that there was going to be a coup d’état happening and
[01:33:00] I had to deal with it. But that was my role at that time. I had to do my
role. And I believe that Felipe came here. Felipe Luciano, his role was to
defend. They was sending to defend me York, and that’s what he was doing. So
I respected him for that. He’s our guest. We don’t want to attack nobody here.
57
�We can’t attack our guests. And plus these are our brothers no matter what. It’s
just like when Andre and (inaudible) and Orlando, and who was the other one?
Orlando and somebody else. Orlando.
ADR: Louie was there.
JJ:
Orlando was sticking up for Ralph for (inaudible).
ADR: Ralph.
JJ:
And Andre was sticking up for (inaudible). I had to be in the middle. I had to be
in the middle then, because I couldn’t allow the group to fall apart. I was just
doing my role. I’m just saying. I know you’re angry about it.
ADR: Well, the point is, the point of what you’re saying-JJ:
I want to explain.
ADR: Okay, I understand. [01:34:00] But you bring it up. It has to be answered. I
mean, at the point when you’re bringing it up in here. Look, number one is just
as much as I’ve learned and you’re forgetting either, well, let me put it to this
way. If you see somebody that’s sitting in front of you sharpening a knife, what
are you going to do?
JJ:
I’m going to get me a shield or something quickly.
ADR: You were blind. Okay. Evidently you were blind because you didn’t see what the
rest of us saw. Okay? You were blind. New York already-- your instincts, your
street instincts left you at that point. That the best thing I’m putting it to you, nice.
You let your street instincts get the best of you. I mean, I get away from you
because you should have known what was going to take place. And it wasn’t
difficult for the rest of us to say he fucked up. You forgot, and this is what I’m
58
�saying about the nice-nice, I don’t mean to be [01:35:00] sarcastic or anything in
there, in this thing in it. We didn’t need New York. We had the rest of the
goddamn nation. We didn’t even have the time to organize other chapters that
wanted to be organized. So what was, and again, in the platform now, that’s
quarterbacking now, meaning the Monday night, in other words, now reflecting
on things that could have taken place, which is not fair. But what I’m trying to say
is that then in New York, obviously didn’t take advantage of something they had
in their ability to do. They could have taken the other chapters, created other
chapters across the nation and overtake us in popularity by, but they didn’t do it
because they weren’t smart. Educated, but stupid. I don’t mean to imply that
every member that you’re trying to point out to me, I’m talking the leadership and
the things in it. Because if I would’ve been there and I got the name the Young
Lords party, now I’m going to go to Detroit, I’m going to go to Philadelphia, I’m
going to go to Los Angeles, [01:36:00] I’m going to go to Houston, I’m going to go
to Dallas. I’m going to go to Louisiana, wherever I can open up different
chapters. That’s what the good thing is, that they didn’t take advantage of that.
That’s quarterbacking. I mean, not quarterback, whatever. I’m the analogy
about I’m going something and it’s not fair. But what I’m trying to point in there
that the other side of it, what really took place is now they had (inaudible), but
they’re not imaginative individuals to come up with new ideas, to do things. We
might not have had the education, but we were not stupid.
JJ:
We were thinking in different levels.
ADR: But look, the thing is then--
59
�JJ:
Because I’m not thinking then at that point, I’m not thinking just that I’m just a
Young Lord. I’m thinking that we’re representing a movement of Latinos.
ADR: The movement.
JJ:
But you’re still the only thinking and I respect that, that we’re just Young Lords.
And so [01:37:00] these people here want to factionalize and want to being
Young Lords.
ADR: Cha-Cha, if you’re saying that.
JJ:
No, I’m just saying--
ADR: Wait a minute, wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait a minute.
JJ:
An issue like that, not saying which is correct--
ADR: You’re forgetting what was happening here in Chicago. I mean, if you were so
concerned about the movement, why were you not involved with the issue of
when we were dealing with the Latin Eagles, the Latin Kings and the other
groups trying to kill each other?
JJ:
We were dealing with that. We had meetings about it. We had truces and
everything like that with the different gangs. We were dealing with that.
ADR: May I remind you of something. What did we say we were going to do that never
happened. Okay. And I say that because you were one of the proponents at the
time in the (inaudible). You made it a point in the earlier parts of the political
organization about what had happened in Libya, the country. [01:38:00]
JJ:
Okay.
60
�ADR: Okay. Do you recall now what I’m referring to? What did Libya do in its
independence from the French? What did the Libyans do at the beginning? You
remind me.
JJ:
No, no. Remind me. I don’t know (inaudible).
ADR: Okay. They got rid of the drug dealers. They killed them.
JJ:
Exactly.
ADR: Why? What would’ve been the reason for the revolutionaries, of Libyan
revolutionaries to kill the drug dealers?
JJ:
They couldn’t be rehabilitated. They couldn’t be rehabilitated, I am thinking. I
don’t know. I don’t remember.
ADR: Who’s the, what destroys the community. I mean, I’m asking questions, what I’m
trying to say, but I’m going to get to the point.
JJ:
Okay.
ADR: The point was that they did that because that was the one that contributed to the
breakdown of the families and everything else because of the drug addiction,
[01:39:00] the bad things that come with those particular issues. So they
basically told ’em, either straighten yourselves up or something’s going to
happen to you. And so they started, obviously they didn’t listen, in order to get
rid of that problem or to unite the people, they had to get rid of it. We discussed
that. We discussed that in the neighborhood, that we had to go to the drug
dealers to stop your fucking bullshit because you’re destroying the neighborhood.
Unfortunately, that was one of the threats that we never carried through, and I
think for other obvious reasons why that didn’t happen. But the point was that we
61
�did discuss it about doing because of what had happened to Libya. In order to
liberate the people, in order to change the mentality, what was taking their unity
they created, they needed to deal with a problem. This is where I go back to the
point as, and I’m not justifying it. I’m not trying, just trying to justify, I’m just trying
to paint the similarities that exists. Yoruba getting slapped-- [01:40:00] The
practicability of why that had to be done. So I’m trying to justify what Orlando
did. It needed to be done. Just as much as the Libyans did. And I know it’s an
extreme example. It’s an extreme example.
JJ:
Why did it need to be done?
ADR: Because you got to remember that New York tended to think-- the impression
they gave me.
JJ:
But Yoruba was not representing all of New York.
ADR: It doesn’t matter.
JJ:
In fact, I didn’t give a damn about New York. I didn’t give a damn about Chicago.
ADR: If you gave a damn, why did you allow ’em to keep the name?
JJ:
I first--
ADR: But why did you allow ’em to keep the name? I mean, I’m asking questions that
should have been asked you.
JJ:
That’s what got us in trouble thinking that here’s Chicago, here’s New York. To
me, I’m a Latino first. That’s number one.
ADR: But you forgot --
62
�JJ:
We became political. When we became political. We said, we don’t even care
about the gang anymore. To us it’s not about a gang. It is about building a
movement.
ADR: [01:41:00] Nobody at that point, nobody thought of ourselves and we never
thought of ourselves. Let’s correct something here.
JJ:
Because at that time (inaudible).
ADR: At that point, there was nothing mentality about the gang, it was you’re
(inaudible). I mean, I’m pointing out something to you. Okay? I don’t mean it to
be, take it for what it is. At that point, no one thought or none of us within the
internal, what other people labeled us, none of us thought of ourselves as a gang
in any form, which way or form, when we bridged the gap of becoming political.
In other words, that would’ve been and be precise in the date. That would’ve
been from the point that when Manuel got killed, that we, in other words, because
there’s a story behind how that came about and that particular issue, how that
occurred.
JJ:
Manuel Ramos.
ADR: But at the very beginning, and we then nobody thought about it. So your point
about this thing got labeled, internally, we never believed, we never applied it to
ourselves. We never believed in that. And we had left that long ago, had let that
go. [01:42:00] So why are you bringing that up? That had nothing to do. It was
taking place on a political process that was taking place that had nothing to do
with gang activity.
63
�JJ:
That moment it appeared that we were still, even though we gave up the gang,
some of our thinking was still there. Would you agree or no?
ADR: No, because look, the issue with New York. The issue with New York was the
name. Their justification, I mean, if you’re trying to analyze why they came, they
were supposedly that they needed to take you back to New York. Okay? They
wanted you to go to New York.
JJ:
I remember that. I remember, okay.
ADR: That was the whole thing was about, so why are you bringing this stigma about
the-JJ:
They wanted me to go to New York and make them the national headquarters.
They wanted New York to be the national headquarters. That’s what they
wanted.
ADR: Exactly. Exactly.
JJ:
I remember that now.
ADR: But I think that’s my point.
JJ:
But [01:43:00] I think they were being facetious because they knew I was not
going to do that.
ADR: Well, my point was, and maybe that’s where Orlando, I would ask, why did you
but let that particular, because like I said, our concern was you, so I wasn’t there
at the meeting. Obviously I was taking care of the other issue. But the point is
that, and I couldn’t understand why maybe you blindsided our side without really
say, why is New York going to be allowed to keep the name? Okay. And in the
aftermath, we just said that. We weren’t thinking what did New York had to in
64
�exchange what was New York or there was nothing. And without, again, I
emphasize without the name, if they would’ve been told, look, you guys don’t
want it. You want to go ahead, fine. You want to break away from us, fine. But
now you’re not going to use the name. [01:44:00] That’s it. So what you should
have done, again, it’s not fair to you, but what should have done at that point
shouldn’t have let it happen. Is that-- no, we’re going to, well now we’re going to
dictate, and you know what? We’re going to replace you guys as leaders. We’re
going to send a couple of Young Lords to assess the value and pick other
leaders to run the organization. That’s what should have happened. I mean, it’s
not fair to you at this point as many years that going back. But what should have
been done is it should have been told, okay, this is what you want. Because this
is what I’m saying, how we reacted to the-- that’s where you-JJ:
No, no, no. I think you have a good point, good point there that we didn’t think it
out that well, we should have thought it out better. I’ll accept that feedback.
That’s good feedback. We should have been, had we thought it out better, we
might have been able to avoid some of this. So that is my responsibility as the
head of the group at that time, to I’ll accept that criticism. That’s good criticism.
[01:45:00] We should have analyzed the situation a little bit better and knew-because we knew they were coming to meet with us and we should have been
able to have some kind of answer to them that they could take back with ’em.
And perhaps we wouldn’t have been split up. Perhaps we would’ve been able to
work things out.
ADR: I mean, if they were to split up--
65
�JJ:
That is my fault. That is my fault, I’ll accept that.
ADR: That is your fault. (inaudible)
JJ:
I accept that. And that created confusion among the Young Lord members in
Chicago and New York. So I’ll take that responsibility. But again, my other
responsibility was to try to keep us together, not for us, our sake as Young Lords,
but for the movement’s sake as Latinos at that time. And that might sound softy.
ADR: Stop it-- wait a minute, wait a minute, wait. I’m not going to-JJ:
Our job was to build a movement at that time. That’s why we started in Chicago,
to build a movement and it spread New York and it spread to other cities. And
that’s all I [01:46:00] was trying to do--
ADR: If you were so concerned.
JJ:
But I’m not justifying, I’m saying--
ADR: No, I’m not saying you’re justifying.
JJ:
I’ll accept (inaudible).
ADR: But look, that should be left at that. Because the point is that if you were
concerned about the movement, I’m trying to answer the question. If you were
concerned about-JJ:
I would’ve analyzed it.
ADR: The (inaudible) Patriots. The Panthers, did they dictated policy to us?
JJ:
No, they didn’t.
ADR: So then if they wanted to do something else, would you have been able to stop
’em?
JJ:
No, they didn’t (inaudible)--
66
�ADR: How are you going to split the goddamn movement?
JJ:
No, no, no. I’m saying that we had a movement together in New York and
Chicago.
ADR: Well, you mentioned the thing that your idea was New York.
JJ:
New York was for Puerto Rican independence. New York is-- the biggest
population of Puerto Ricans is in New York. Chicago is--
ADR: How much full-JJ:
-- is Mexican and Puerto Rican. But New York at that time was mainly Puerto
Rican, and we were a group here of Mexican [01:47:00] and Puerto Rican, of all
Latinos. That’s what we were, that’s the thing.
ADR: Okay. Well, you’re opening yourself from my part to criticism for me. Okay.
Because your analysis is faulty.
JJ:
Okay.
ADR: You talk about a movement among Hispanics, New York was the least of the
goddamn problems because I could ask you what was happening at the other
side of the coast. in the west coast, and if you really wanted to talk about
keeping a movement together. I’m trying to get to the point in here.
JJ:
No, I’m talking about the Young Lords.
ADR: Exactly. And I’m talking about the Young Lords-- no, what you’re referring to, the
movement was the movement, the Young Lords, I mean-JJ:
No, no, no.
ADR: No. The movement. Alright, stop right there.
JJ:
We were part of the movement.
67
�ADR: Well, my point is this what I’m trying to say what-JJ:
I didn’t want lose all those chapters.
ADR: Cha-Cha, if Hispanic movement in order to truly exist and a microscopic already
existed with the Young Lords, okay, you’re forgetting [01:48:00] something that,
and this is the problem that I’ve always said over all these years in the aftermath
of the Young Lords, all right, you’re forgetting (inaudible), how it worked well and
you are applying when you talk about it. That’s why I’m criticizing you on this
particular issue because you’re forgetting that it wasn’t Puerto Ricans that did it
by themselves. They did it with Mexicans and we did it some Cubans and some
other nationalities within the Hispanic movement. And right now you’re talking
just about the Puerto Ricans. And somehow this is, no, wait a minute. I didn’t
say, well, that impression, you’re giving that impression.
JJ:
I said at that point, no, I didn’t.
ADR: Wait a minute. But you’re giving that impression. I said the movement in order
to succeed among the Hispanics. We have to have a coalition, which it existed
much like that. Mexicans and Puerto Ricans already learned how to lift it,
especially in the city here in Illinois works very well. That lesson is not being
applied by New York and it ain’t being applied by the goddamn thing, everything
that’s written about the Young Lords as being a Puerto Rican group, and you
really want to make an impact on the people, [01:49:00] how it started, and name
the men who contributed to the movement more than anybody else. I will make
this statement. Mexicans and Puerto Ricans in Chicago. Fuck New York
because they were all fucking Puerto Rican, we’re fucking in there and then
68
�contributing it. And if you want to make a movement between the people, you
got to stop forgetting about the fuck New York. You’ve got to start remembering
that the Mexicans had a lot to do with the movement here in Chicago as part of
the Young Lords, as a broader picture of what took place. It wasn’t done by the
Puerto Ricans by themselves. You’re forgetting that sometimes or not that you
do it intentionally. Okay? That’s why in New York, I could give a fuck less about
New York. I don’t mean to sound vulgar or start swearing or things like that, but
it pisses me off to sit there and somehow this fucking movement of the Young
Lords dealt with this issue of fucking Puerto Ricans. Where were the fucking
Mexicans [01:50:00] who took the (inaudible) together? We did it together. You
want to show the younger youth, you got to show ’em that we have lived, we
know how to live together, how to get along together, how to work together.
Where the fuck are they going to learn that if you’re not telling them the real
story. Your story ain’t about fucking New York. Fuck the Young Lords party.
They didn’t do shit. They didn’t contribute a fucking thing to the movement other
than the fucking name, the big (inaudible) mouths. What else did they do? Tell
me because they were shooting there when I was leading the fucking marches.
They weren’t there when I took over the goddamn seminary. They weren’t there
when I took over the fucking church and they weren’t there when I was fucking
facing the cops, that I was the front person in front of everybody in there ready to
take, possibly taking a fucking shot from the fucking cops. They weren’t there.
When I went to the Carina alone with other people that were there, I was there by
69
�myself. But when I was there, when I was in front of the line going to the Carina
projects [01:51:00] and get into the issues that had to be dealt with.
ADR: Those are the things I didn’t do it-- I’m not saying that I was there by myself. I
had other people, Puerto Ricans and Mexicans together when we did these
things. So where are the Mexicans? I mean are we fucking blind or what? I
mean our skin so dark that we’re not there because there’s certainly nothing’s
ever mentioned about the contribution of the Mexicans into the Puerto Rican
movement. None. Okay, none whatsoever. All these goddamn years, all this
stuff in there talking about blah, blah, blah, and I was like, bullshit. Where’s the
contribution when somebody said, we have had contribution from the Mexicans,
they’re our brothers that have helped us. We’re all together. Where-- give me
one statement that it shows anywhere in motherfucking right or neither. Show
me one fucking sentence when you got that.
JJ:
I did make a button that said “Tengo Aztlán, Tengo Aztlán En Mi Corazón.”
[01:52:00] I made that button. So I have to differ with you a little bit, but I
definitely respect the pride that you have for the Mexican community and
definitely for example, Luis Chavez took over the People’s Church. He led the
People’s Church (inaudible) with the heads of our clinic, (inaudible) health clinic,
Puerto Rican patriot. It was named after the Puerto Rican compatriot, but yet it
was Mexicans that were running in the leadership of our clinic, Mexican Young
Lords, that were doing that. So I definitely respect, definitely respect that. And
you’re correct that we did not give enough attention to the Mexican Young Lords.
And I’m not giving a but to New York. One of our main issues though, that
70
�including Mexicans and Puerto Ricans were fighting for at that time [01:53:00]
was self-determination for Puerto Rico.
ADR: The what now?
JJ:
The main issue that when we started was self-determination for Puerto Rico.
Our first button said, our first button said, “Tengo Puerto Rico En Mi Corazon”
and then we made the button “Tengo Aztlán En Mi Corazón” to recognize the
contribution of the Mexican people within our group.
ADR: But my point, okay, you’re bringing something up. The thing, okay. (inaudible)
No, no. I’m point out something of what you said in there that people are not
aware. All right? When that was done, and many times during the period when
we used to have debates, they lasted all night and (inaudible), and I can
remember hours we spent arguing some of these points. You were arguing
when the button was being created. Not all of us were sitting there were in
agreement about the button, but do you recall what you said? Were you
convinced those of us that were Mexican [01:54:00] to go with the idea with the
button, the way it was being written the way you wanted? “I got Puerto Rico En
Mi Corazon.” How did that come about?
JJ:
I’m not sure.
ADR: You don’t remember?
JJ:
I don’t remember. I don’t remember.
ADR: Okay, as a brother, sometimes critical-- you forget important points of what took
place. The argument we were having with you that night is that because those of
us that were different nationalities weren’t created by (inaudible). Why are we
71
�doing this? There were issues. The (inaudible) even Puerto Rican siding with
some of us that saying, that makes sense. We’re not all, not everybody here is
Puerto Rican. We kept arguing the whole night about (inaudible). You kept
fighting that we needed to have that blah, blah, blah, whatever. But you made
one point that finally convinced when we said we agreed to it, and then
sometimes it becomes a regrettable agreement. What I’m trying to say because
of the issue that the way I just out spoke and then letting certain things out that
you don’t realize the consequences of the way this has been taken. [01:55:00]
ADR: The way New York abuses it in terms of the presentation by so-called Puerto
Rican movement, that they were not really that goddamn movement. You said to
us, “You guys, the Mexicans, the Argentineans, you went to a number, you all
have your flags. Y’all have your countries. Puerto Rico’s not a free country. It’s
a possession of the United States.” And we realized the (inaudible) because like
I said, it was a long discussion that night, an argument, but we realized that we
conceded to you that you were right in the sense that if Puerto Rico was to
become a free nation, we needed to support that. And that was the idea of why
we allowed that we said we got Puerto Rico mi Corazon. That’s how that came
about. And whether you did or not, the point the credit, the only credit, the credit
I’m giving you is the fact that they made up an accurate report in saying Puerto
Rico is not a free country [01:56:00] or otherwise that would not have taken
place.
ADR: And that’s the same thing I’m taking there, that you’re not giving credit. This is
sometimes, quite honestly, sometimes-- I don’t get angry. But I mean, I’m
72
�disappointed in you that all these years things has been said in there that not
enough has been mentioned that this thing about much like what you’re doing
with New York about saying, well, just looking back about having the name that
again, playing nice-nice, you, in other words, you allowed another, a bigger harm
to take place and you don’t see the consequences of that. The consequence I’m
pointing out to you, if I’m going to go sell a point of why the unity between the not
here in Chicago so much in Chicago, Chicago is different than probably than
New York and other places because here the unity of among Hispanics is
probably much stronger than any other part of the country. But if I’m going to go
to New York or other places where you got a mix or Florida Cubans and
Mexicans and which are minority [01:57:00] over there, the Cubans, the Puerto
Ricans and numbers in there, my point to them in there, in order to sell ’em in
there, take a look at what this group did. They did it with different nationalities,
but how am I going to sell something when everybody, every time they read it,
well, the Young Lords were fucking Puerto Rican. How did they allow Mexican to
get in there? Don’t you think I’m going to hear something like that being said? I
didn’t know fucking-- where do you get that? The Mexicans started to help start
the gang of the young roots. They were a fucking Puerto Rican group. They
were a Puerto Rican gang. They don’t know the truth. They don’t know what
took place. Why? Because you got people lying. Perpetrating lies about the
movement. You got second sources trying to speak for the first sources. That’s
a harm Cha-Cha, a big one. You want to get people on your side. You want to
impact the youth. This is what I refer when I’m talking [01:58:00] about the truth.
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�The truth speaks for itself. I’m not going to say we were perfect, that we were
goddamn saints. But what they’ll see, what I mention is that the unity that
existed, the trust, you talked about all these things, this is why the (inaudible)
gets put together, the trust we had with each other that we didn’t second guess
with each other didn’t matter that you were goddamn Puerto Rican and I’m
goddamn Mexican. If Sal said he wanted to do that, well fucking do it. He knows
what he’s doing. Or if Cha-Cha said something, do it. What I’m trying to say in
that trust, that’s how we build. You talked about the trust. The trust came from
the ability to trust each other unconditionally because we didn’t feel that we were
going to get stabbed in the back or anything. I don’t have to worry that you were
going to be doing or anything like that. That’s if you want to teach, educate, this
is what I’m referring. Everything else is-- that’s all fucking bullshit. I mean,
Carlos can hear me and I would say it to his face, fucking, [01:59:00] what are
you talking to an expert on the Young Lords? You didn’t know shit. You were a
fucking rally Young Lord and almost all the other goddamn speakers there, they
were all rally Young Lords. They weren’t there participating, doing any of the
heavy work that needed to be done, negotiating the things that, all the different
things we did, contributions. I mean, it wasn’t just me and seven people or seven
people and me. It was a contribution of the community. Remember you asked
me to give a perspective. So I’m unfortunately, I find myself using the word I
perhaps too much. Alright? But you’re asking about what there is, where I fit
and how these issues came to be, but it was a contribution of different, it just
Mexican and Puerto Ricans. We had whites helping us. They were part of the
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�Young Lords. With the women that participated and did the damn things. We
even had Blacks in our organization. Where is that Cha-Cha? Where is that
being? [02:00:00] Where does it show up? How you want to impact a Black to
say you need to be part of the movement or you need to vote for me or you need
to help me out when you’re talking about the Young Lords, and then they say the
fucking Young Lords are Puerto Rican, what do I got to do with the Puerto
Ricans? How do you impact the woman that you’re trying to bring her into the
group? Well, what do I want to do with a bunch of fucking Puerto Rican male
children, as fucking pigs, right?
JJ:
They agree on that. They agree.
ADR: You understand what I’m saying? I don’t mean to maybe I’m going to the
extreme of criticizing you, but the thing is, this is the failure that what I all these-JJ:
You’re making good points. You heard me, right?
ADR: Okay, so the movements that we’re going to move will come back in there if we
don’t correct. This is what of all these years, but I’ve been trying to refer to you
what needed to be done. [02:01:00] Okay? You just never really wanted-perhaps you didn’t want to listen to me. I don’t take it in a, but all these things.
This is what I referred about telling the truth, putting the facts on the table.
Because if people look at what was done and how that came to be, it’s not the
bad they’re going to look at. They’re going to look at the cohesiveness, the trust,
the things that made the things work. We learned from the women. (audio cuts
out) Perfect. Take one. I can recall without hearing again, the occurrence, they
had to set us down and said, you guys are fucking up. A couple of times that
75
�they in there. You guys are doing this. You’re not supposed to be doing it. I
mean, even on the women, they rolled up and stood up to us saying, we don’t
like the way you guys are going. Remember that? They had the guts to tell us
off and we listened. And sometimes the males would being males, maybe some
of us smirked at them, [02:02:00] but we had to listen and we had to listen to
what they had to tell us, and obviously they might’ve been a part because of the
greater movement with the woman’s movement that was coming into existence.
But-- and because of that, more than likely they realized that, wait a minute,
these guys are treating us like shit. We got to change them. How are you going
to reach people? I mean, when you talk about the movement, that’s when I
heard you say this thing about I didn’t want to split the movement. You
bewildered the shit out of me. How the fuck are you talking about movement
when you’re talking-- well, nobody’s, maybe nobody’s going to fucking listen to
you if you keep talking about a group and correlate to what exists that nobody
else has any interest unless you happen to be a Puerto Rican that, in other
words, other than that, nobody, believe me, nobody’s going to want to listen to
you because it doesn’t connect. It doesn’t-- you know this is what I’m saying
about reaching the audience, reaching the-- [02:03:00] The thing is, I mean,
there’s a lot to be thought from what happened and it just not because we, some
were super-duper or whatever this, yes, we were lucky. It is like sometimes
somebody winning the lottery or we were in a certain time and place. We
reacted in a certain way. We didn’t plan it. The events that occurred in the way
they occurred just sort of fitted in place and that was it. Now we can take it to the
76
�other level, use that as a vehicle to help organize a larger movement and in other
words, to the Hispanic populations that continue to increase in the United States,
and make it useful. Like voters. Why do we want to have, when the Hispanics
don’t want to vote right now for many number of reasons, but they can study us.
Here’s why you should vote. Here’s what can’t be accomplished when people
get together. [02:04:00] Now, we might just be one example out of many, but still
one example is one more that didn’t exist. And other things in terms of
organizing and things that occur, that has to be the lessons that learned that I
talked about yesterday. The things that we learned. I mean, I looked at
perspective from my point dealing with the YMCA, how they did things, and I
think they had enough brains to see that ain’t working and I know why it ain’t
working. I got a better way of doing it. Doesn’t make me super smart or anything
else. It’s just that I was lucky enough to see it differently and then apply that to
something else. Then I go back to the statement, educated people are stupid
people. I know some people that are listening to what I’m saying may not make
no goddamn sense at all, but if they really think right higher, they know what I’m
talking about. [02:04:59] As far as the Young Lords, all of us, not all of us, that
stand corrected, quite a few of us became successful. I like to think that I
became successful, but there wasn’t just being by myself. There were other
guys that went on to do a lot more things in life and contributing not only to
society.
JJ:
How were you successful? How were you successful?
77
�ADR: Well, if you take a look at who we were, it’s like saying how many heartbeats
away was I away from being in jail? To that add the only individual that I can
kind thank again comes to Orlando and I need to explain something about
Orlando, why in the later years, I became more as a friend, more endeared. Not
that I, sometimes it’s been years that sometimes that I don’t go beyond seeing
him. [02:06:00] And then the things that we haven’t discussed that had to deal
with the issues like with drugs. It was part of the movement of those things that
happened. I think Orlando, me personally, saved me from becoming in any way,
becoming in any way addicted to drugs, and I got him to thank for that because
he put it in a perspective in such a way that it made me think that I could never
do that. And I got him to thank. As a friend, when I came back from Vietnam at
the end of 1968 as far as the Young Lords, to me, it was a non-existent thing. I
mean, it is not like I came, “Hey guys, I’m back.” I didn’t do that. Interestingly
enough, Orlando knew I was coming out because he would ask my sister from
time to time when is Sal coming back. So as soon as when he knew when I was
coming back, he came to see me. [02:07:00] Out of all the guys, Orlando was
the-- he came and said, how you doing? And I went out and we started hanging
out together, which kind of surprised me because it was the least thing I
expected was for him to come looking for me. So then we started hanging out
together. I remember seeing you, not under the best of circumstances when you
were living in Wrightwood with an Hispanic girl, but that was not under the best
circumstances.
JJ:
Meaning what? I was using drugs at that time?
78
�ADR: Yes. Kind of shook me, shocked me. I wasn’t expecting that at all. You’re in a
goddamn suit, the whole bit and-JJ:
High as a kite.
ADR: Huh?
JJ:
And high as a kite. In a suit, but high as a kite. [02:08:00] But while you were
gone, there was a drug epidemic in the neighborhood.
ADR: The what now?
JJ:
While you were gone in Vietnam, there was a drug epidemic in the
neighborhood. The country was hippies, the country was hippies, and we were
following that.
ADR: Well, there might’ve been a drug epidemic in the area and (inaudible) but not as
big as what came later.
JJ:
Oh yeah. It came later. Later it what, got worse? Yeah, got worse.
ADR: I mean, in your time-JJ:
Because later it spreads more to minority groups, so-called minorities.
ADR: The time you’re talking with-JJ:
First it was the hippie movement, and then some of us got into that hippie
movement, but then it spread to the barrios.
ADR: Remember, Gorilla? Gorilla was a Paragons.
JJ:
Okay. Right. I remember. Oh yeah, I know who you’re talking about.
ADR: What I remember, because as I said, I wasn’t [02:09:00] getting-- my recollection
of when I had come back, there were very few people, and I don’t know how
79
�much usage you were doing. I mean, as compared to what happened later.
What I’m saying is in comparison to when I first got back.
JJ:
I became addicted, I became addicted.
ADR: To me, it seems like you were.
JJ:
I was addicted. I was on the corner every day.
ADR: Okay. I mean, I don’t know about that. I mean-JJ:
One day I was in a suit and tie and the next day I was like a bum. So I mean, I
was addicted.
ADR: Okay. The thing was that there weren’t that many people that were addicted at
the time when I came back.
JJ:
Right.
ADR: But you were in the minority, you guys were in the minority. I’m mentioning
Gorilla because Gorilla was the one that one of the suppliers at the time. And as
I said, when Orlando came back, I had come back and hanging around,
[02:10:00] being single and what have you not, I used to go down to Rush Street
a lot, and sometimes with Orlando and things like that. We ran into Gorilla one
time and were knowing each other and everything else, I was kind of surprised to
see him down on Rush Street. But I quickly caught onto why he was down on
Rush Street. Obviously sell some of his wares that he had. But he wasn’t the
kind of guy at that point that-- even then he was not a user. He was in the
business. He was making money. He always had money in his pocket,
obviously from the sales. But what I recall in that area, the particular area that
started happening is that the group at the very beginning, when I’m saying I’m
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�coming back, the issue of drugs [02:11:00] was not something that was heavily
within our group at all. You were the exception and you kept that under control.
But as time passed, the gradualness of the individual is like the guys we all knew
who was doing drugs. It wasn’t hard to figure out, it wasn’t a secret or anything,
but the group was in a minority and it started to increase as time passed. So if
there were two, three guys doing it, we knew what they were doing. And this is
one of the reasons that we had discussed, but what we were going, the Young
Lords came into being and the political aspects of it. In other words, the political
aspects of the Young Lords came into being, the discussion of the drug dealing
came into focus, but nothing was really ever done along the lines of what the
discussions that have been had about that. But the group started increasing
[02:12:00] in numbers. In other words, people doing the drugs became
increasing to the point that they became the majority rather than the minority
within certain given time. That happened in other neighborhoods. The, go
ahead. If you’re going to-JJ:
Go ahead. Go ahead.
ADR: So the issue of the drugs and that particular issue, the epidemic for me, the way
my perspective came much later, the epidemic, that a neighborhood that
basically had a minority of drug users, the neighborhood changed to completely
of having a majority of drug use. A lot of guys will deny, I mean, I’m not the only
exception you got, Fermin never did drugs, myself. Maybe there’s a couple of
other guys. I can’t think right off the camera, but we were really the minority. We
never did any drugs because everybody else did. [02:13:00] And for us, it was
81
�the transition. When we used to go down to Rush Street and there’d be five, six
of us going down to Rush Street and every weekend, and then maybe once with
Ralph and once in a while the guys all were doing is getting high once a month,
but then once a month became once a week, and then once a week it became
every day. Okay. I mean, that was the effect.
JJ:
Everybody would say it was just once a month. Yeah.
ADR: Right. So that issue, I mean, I think the thing with drugs, it was something that
we-JJ:
Well, the good thing about Fermin and (inaudible) and people like that, the
reason they didn’t get into drugs was they were the sports. We had teams,
sports teams. Remember you mentioned about the YMCA. So they played
basketball, they played softball, and they were very good at it. [02:14:01] I
mean, I got good at it too sometimes, but I didn’t stay with it. But they stayed
with it. They were athletic and they represented the Young Lords, and we won a
lot of games. So we had our own basketball teams, our own baseball teams and
everything else. But I was in the boxing team I remember. I did win a trophy one
day, but even though everybody booed me because I was kicking the guy after
he was (inaudible). But at least we, but see, but what I’m saying is we were in
tournaments as Young Lords because the YMCA was trying to get us out of the
gang. And like you said, that was a mistake because--
ADR: But you’re talking about the time also.
JJ:
That’s why he didn’t get into drugs. That’s why Fermin and then never get into
hard drugs.
82
�ADR: And Benny didn’t do it until much later on.
JJ:
No, he did it later. He did it later. Yeah.
ADR: Huh?
JJ:
He did it later.
ADR: Right. [02:15:00] That’s what I’m (inaudible).
JJ:
Yeah.
ADR: He did it when we became political that he got drunk. That’s what I was referring
to earlier. The process of when the majority became into drug addiction was
during the political process that took place with the Young Lords. But prior to
that, it was basically non-existence. I don’t say if you can call it success, but
obviously for me, I referred to it in my own mentality, I had sort of a triangle,
meaning that I had a daytime job, which I applied myself because I had a family
from the very beginning. I, having gotten married almost immediately after
coming out of the service. And in the process, I went back to school, along with
Louie. Louie was the one-- this issue. I don’t take credit for certain things. Louie
convinced me to go back to school, college. [02:16:00] I really hadn’t thought
about doing that. And then part of that, because I originally coming out of the
service, as I said, I was leaving everything behind with exception when Orlando,
as I said, came around and brought me back into the group. Because of my
hearing problem that I started developing, when I left the service that I realized
that I had a hearing problem and the disability was recognized by the immediate,
because it happened right after I left the service. I discovered that I had the
problem, a hearing problem at that point was because I wanted to become a
83
�pilot, I mean a commercial pilot, but not flying the big planes, the smaller planes.
And I was going to go to school for that, and I had to leave it because of my
hearing. So I felt like I was going to sort of quagmire as to what I wanted to do
for the rest of my life. And at that point, I really didn’t know what I wanted to do.
[02:17:00] Then the issue of the Young Lords started coming into play and the
political processes that things were evolving. So there were a couple of years
where I didn’t know what I wanted to do. I was young enough to realize I got
enough time to plan my future. I just wanted to kind of settle in. So the bottom
line is that Louie convinced me and said, you need figure out when you go back
to school. Because my plan was if I’m going back to school, use the GI Bill, I
want to make sure what I’m going to and how to, what am I going to use it? But
he said, leave that alone. Don’t worry about it. Get back and you got four years
to figure out what you want to do. He convinced me to go back to school, and in
doing so, I started taking courses that I felt comfortable with. I’ve always loved
reading, and I always had an interest in law. So I started taking criminal courses
and for work, work-wise [02:18:00] engineering courses to enhance my position
as an operator. So the years started to roll by more quickly, and I found school
to become very easily. So I ended up going, attending junior college, got my two
year degree. Then I transferred to Northeastern and got my, and I actually I,
which is kind of surprised me because I was a lousy student, I really wasn’t a
lousy student at all. But I ended up graduating with honors from Northeastern. I
got my degree and I graduated with honors, and I also started studying law.
Then quickly, moving up, I got accepted into law school, but I got sideswiped. I
84
�use the word sideswiped because, and I got into organizing it with the union. We
had a change of power and I was asked-JJ:
What union, what union?
ADR: That’s the Operating [02:19:00] Engineers with Local 150. But the point was-JJ:
Also part of the Latin American--
ADR: Right. But I’m trying to say about the triangle. The education, the radical
movement and the conservative movement that exists within the construction
industry gave me a different perspective of how I viewed things. I had the
knowledge of radicalism, firsthand, conservative, working with the mentality, the
conservative movement. So not that the construction workers are conservative,
but I mean, in other words, a completely contrast mentality of how things are
viewed, the political process and everything else, how the system works that
comes from the construction industry. But there’s a lot to learn, really because
they can educate you in a lot of different things and not just about being a worker
or an operator [02:20:00] or a carpenter or an electrician. It’s a society of
workers that do things to benefit their own groups and do things that, in other
words, to enhance their positions and workplace and things that come with that.
And obviously then the other one, what I got from education. The numbers, the
statistics, the studies of different groups and all these other things, that all kind of
helped me see things in perspective and making me realize what the Young
Lords have represented. Some of the things that you’re hearing me talk of what I
said, why things and how the American system really works. And sometimes I
say things and I realize at the moment that I don’t always explain that it needs to
85
�be explained. And sometimes I’m guilty of explaining too much, and at other
times, I’m also guilty of not explaining everything enough of what I’m talking
about. But what I’m trying to [02:21:00] say is that the system within the
movement is the certain amount of not, realistic, not where it would be. In
looking at the movement, I realized that the movement made a lot of mistakes
that didn’t live up to what the way things should have been brought. They were
blind. Because I think that’s why I always looked at, I mean, in reaching
something, a decision or a conclusion, the best way to do it is to see all the
options that are on the table. Law school teaches you that, okay. It teaches you
to see different views so that you can come to a conclusion to a certain
(inaudible). It’s ideal. It doesn’t always work sometimes, but that’s the essence
of looking at things. So for me, looking at things over the years, I think it helped
me become a good organizer business agent with the local. It made me,
[02:22:00] one thing, one of the rules I learned, I call it a rule like certain things, is
that I always kept in mind is that not to be judgmental, okay? Because you have
to, in representing people or organizing, you can’t be a judge. I mean, you can’t
be taking sides and things. You have to listen to what people are saying from
both sides in order to help you reach a conclusion as to how to solve a particular
issue, or sometimes you have to hear from more than one point of view or two
different points of view or three different points of view, what I’m referring to.
Other things helped me evolve. And obviously-JJ:
So the Young Lords helped you get into the union, the Young Lords helped you
go forward with the union, is that what you’re saying?
86
�ADR: Yeah. It helped me because in organizing, there were certain things that-- labor
movements organization abilities are [02:23:00] where I can say they’re great
(inaudible). But again, the issues with the Young Lords is the ability to, there’s
correlations, what I’m trying to say with what happened with the Young Lords just
as much with other groups or things in the labor movement, it is really, there’s a
lot of things that are related to each other. And to me, it’s like reading a history
book and it’s not learning about that history when you got, in other words, there’s
particular saying that you don’t have to jump off the roof, in other words, to feel
how it hurt you. And that’s what I’m referring to in history, that there are certain
number of things that, in other words, the same being is that if you can’t learn
from history, you’re [02:24:00] bound to repeat the same mistakes. I agree with
that.
JJ:
How long have you been a union organizer? How many years?
ADR: Actually with our local, from the point we come in, we carry a two title that’s being
business agent/organizer. So how the whole time for me, I would’ve to say the
whole time, more than 20 years that I was a business agent. Business
agent/organizer.
JJ:
Okay. So you’ve been working with the union more than 20 years now, and it
helped you with the Young Lords.
ADR: Right, because it would’ve been in 1980.
JJ:
Yeah.
ADR: Yeah.
JJ:
Okay.
87
�ADR: More than 20 years.
JJ:
And you also worked in the, I know we only get a few more minutes. You worked
all the way with the Young Lords, even with the Harold Washington campaign?
ADR: Right. That was another thing that we never discussed, but that needs to be
discussed as to how the political process that came that we haven’t really
discussed [02:25:00] those political, this is the aftermath of the Young Lords,
because the only thing I would say, we might want do some more interview on
this. I’m the one, and not for anything that I’m trying to take, not the point of
trying to take credit, having learned that the experience that we have had, I’m the
one that approached Omar because I was working from the union. I was a
worker back then-- I wasn’t. We were helping Jane Byrne on her reelection
campaign, knowing what previously from the Young Lords experiences of the
Young Lords, I had the idea. I knew that all Omar was working for [Callie?], I
knew that you were working for Washington and some of the other people. So I
went to Omar and I said, why don’t we get in touch with all the interest at different
parties that belong to different organizations and let’s have a talk. And I told him
my idea.
JJ:
So then the Young Lords were working in different campaigns?
ADR: [02:26:00] Yes.
JJ:
Okay. But I was working with Washington.
ADR: You were with Washington. Omar was with Callie. I was with Jane Byrne and
with some other people. Not only, but when I told Omar, I said, I don’t want to
restrict it.
88
�JJ:
We were not in existence as--
ADR: Exactly. And my point to, right, but my point to Omar was, I don’t want to just
deal with, so get as many people as we can that are working for the different
candidates. Let’s bring ’em together. I said I want to have a meeting and I told
’em what I wanted to do. I said, well, my idea is that whoever wins the, because I
knew whoever wins the primaries was the next mayor from the Democratic side,
and that was the deal that we had agreed. When we sat down in there, that’s
what, whether Omar said it or that was done, I was the one that came up with it.
Our position is that whoever wins the primary, the rest of us have to join up with
that group [02:27:00] and help ’em in order to enhance the positions, the
capabilities of what we’re going to go with this. In this instance, your candidate
won. That’s where we went and said, okay, I want to work with you now. That’s
how in the aftermath of the political process, we came to Washington. At that
time, I was already in law school. I was attending already law school. And so we
(inaudible), and that’s how we went to the point of enhancing the positions and
other things that came with that, which you mentioned about, I think. But the task
force, as I recall, not for any other reason, I can’t think of the guys. He was
married to, a Jewish woman at -JJ:
You’re saying the Latino Task Force, that that was created, we created that. We
created basically with other groups, with other coalitions.
ADR: The idea came from, as I call it, was from that name, B-- god, it starts with a b, I
believe, [02:28:00] the congressman from New York that came to help
Washington.
89
�JJ:
(inaudible) me and you took him around.
ADR: He was good.
JJ:
Me and you took him around.
ADR: He knew his shit. Lemme tell you something.
JJ:
He gave us an idea of setting up.
ADR: Exactly. Exactly. With subpoena powers.
JJ:
Latino task force with subpoena powers. And then we took that to our members,
to our group that we were working with Washington at that time, Harold
Washington, and then Harold Washington agreed with us. And we got together
with other groups and formed that coalition.
ADR: Which obviously had to do.
JJ:
Still exists today. DA still has it. It still exists today, right? Under Mary. It
doesn’t exist anymore.
ADR: (shakes head no) Daley killed it.
JJ:
Oh, Daley killed it. Daley, Junior killed it. I told you about that guy. You can’t
support that guy. Okay.
ADR: [02:29:00] Well, the point, the thing was-JJ:
Let’s wrap it up, let’s wrap it up.
ADR: The point of all that isn’t that no one was really listening to, and I said this earlier,
or if I didn’t, by then, what I’m trying to say is that really listening to what is being
said, they’re here, but they’re really not listening to what’s being said. But then
you in creating the task force emphasized the fact that we had to have subpoena
powers. Okay. Which then happened because, and again, I blame, I’m not
90
�blaming you on that particular level, and I’m trying to say, but some of the other
people that had the education that, oh, we can’t, I fought you to the point,
because you didn’t want to embarrass Washington. When Washington himself
had told us sitting down and you’re not hearing what the guy’s saying. You got to
give him an excuse he needs an excuse to justify what he’s going to give us.
Because if you just goes around and said, I’m going to create, in other words, he
would’ve gone [02:30:00] on the floor and said, tomorrow I’m going to create a
Latino task force that has subpoena power. All this goddamn members say,
what the fuck is wrong with you? Okay, let it go. We can do another interview. I
mean, my point on that, what I’m trying to say, he was saying, in other words,
justify, go out and protest. I mean, I was mention, I can’t remember the guy’s
name that came in there. He sits there protesting in front of the goddamn city
hall and oh man, man can be, everybody’s bitching. Oh, he can’t be doing that.
He’s embarrassing the Hispanics, because they’re protesting in Washington. We
help Washington. What did Washington do then? Help him one goddamn bit,
didn’t do shit for Washington. We all know that. Washington says you guys got
to put him in the tax force. Remember that? He sat on the original task force.
So my point is that, okay, (inaudible) well, what I’m saying is what I said that
Washington, they had to tell us. The rest of them were in there. [02:31:00] Why
are you putting that guy in there? Because he’s out there protesting. I got to put
him in a goddamn thing, now me to stop them doing this, I had to put ’em in a
taxi.
91
�JJ:
Okay, now we’re going to start talking about you’re in the service now, right? So
are you in the army, navy, or what?
ADR: The Army.
JJ:
And where were you stationed there?
ADR: What now?
JJ:
Where did you go to? Where were you stationed?
ADR: Well, one thing before we get into the Army that we were mentioning about the
fights, the gang fights, the major fights that was never mentioned. Make me think
you’re forgetting. We fought against 18th Street and you’re forgetting it was
Mama’s group that we fought against and we had gang fights with them.
JJ:
Oh, oh, with Mama Velasquez?
ADR: Yeah.
JJ:
Oh, Arturo Velasquez, who ran for Alderman later?
ADR: Not Arturo. Yeah.
JJ:
He ran for Alderman later.
ADR: [02:32:00] Yeah.
JJ:
What in the hell--
ADR: We fought against him.
JJ:
What was the name of their group?
ADR: I don’t remember.
JJ:
Did you fight against him at that time? That’s how we met each other.
ADR: No, we fought against them.
JJ:
And what was that fight? What was the reasoning for that fight?
92
�ADR: Those are fights that we used to come in when, as I said before, sometimes we
were asked to become as an alliance to another group when they were fighting a
fight. That was one of where alliances were made, we’re fighting. We fought
against their group. There are other ones, I mean, I’m sure they’re going to
come to me, but there were other, in that end of the years, there were other, a lot
more fights. Typically, we had fights almost, I’m not saying exactly, but almost
on a daily basis. That was unique to ourselves. Not to the Paragons, not to the
Latin Eagles, I mean the Black Eagles. We were unique in that. [02:33:00] And
we ventured one of the things in this many times in there that we were mobile,
we weren’t, other than probably the longest period of time, was that we stayed in
one particular place would’ve been Old Town. But we tended to be mobile during
those years. And one of the things that really in expanding the group, but how
we operated was the fact that what I mentioned earlier, that we were not always
together as a group. I mean, people didn’t realize it was a cohesive group that
existed within the Young Lords. So as I said, if you take a look at the [Division
Pete?], you look at it. What’s his name? Oh God, I’m forgetting his name.
[02:34:00] Her husband that got killed. I tend to forget names.
JJ:
Angie?
ADR: Who?
JJ:
Angie or --?
ADR: Angie’s husband?
JJ:
Poncho. Poncho.
ADR: Poncho. Tried to challenge us. Got his ass kicked.
93
�JJ:
What do you mean he tried to challenge? What do you mean because he was--
ADR: Pancho tried to take over the group.
JJ:
Okay. What do you mean he tried to take over? You mentioned that a couple of
people tried to take over the group.
ADR: You had, as I said, Division Pete, Poncho. Almost every guy that came into the
group, they brought in a couple of guys. There were other guys that wanted to
become leaders. Now, we didn’t know that immediately. I mean, if things would
come up in there that it would become apparent, as I stated before, when we
would’ve meetings that who was going to be the next president or that wanted to
be somebody else, a president that came into place. So what I’m trying to tell
you that, for example, when Division Pete, [02:35:00] he did it along with a
couple, it wasn’t just by himself. He was doing with a couple of other guys from
the area Old Town, because as I said, they didn’t see us all together. I know that
when we had the meeting, and often the case, the one that was our in trying to
describe, I have to go back to Orlando. He was like the gladiator. He was
always the one that would take him on. They ended up kicking Division Pete’s
ass when he had made the challenge and fighting him. And like I said, there
were other people. You were asking about fights. I remember one time with
Orlando when as many fights that might seem-JJ:
There was always a struggle within the Young Lords of different people that
wanted to take the leadership role.
ADR: And Orlando was always at the forefront of defending the group.
JJ:
Right.
94
�ADR: I remember one night when he got drunk. [02:36:00] Now, to my credit, as I
said, the friendship I had with him, I mean obviously repeated it many times. He
was drunk one night as many times when we used to get drunk every weekend,
we used to go try to get drunk, try it, because we thought that was a cool thing to
do or we wanted to do it. But you remember the fight when he took on, he fought
about 11 different fights in one night? He was fighting everybody? Among the
group and everything that he had gotten, know what he was doing. Orlando.
JJ:
When he fought Andre or whatever, I remember one time I had to get in the
middle of is that, and both sides wanted to kick my butt. Both sides.
ADR: Well, that night he ended up the only one he-JJ:
He told me he was going to kill me and Andre.
ADR: He started a fight with everybody within the group. He was drunk, he was drunk.
And obviously, [02:37:00] Orlando’s Orlando but we didn’t, the rest of the guys
didn’t give a shit. They-- we weren’t going to take his crap. But I mean, he
fought about 11 of us one night, except me. He’s the only one that, in other
words, recognized me. He never tried but he was fighting with everybody else,
including yourself. Fermin, Carlos, I mean all the other guys because he was
drunk. He had drank, he was completely fucked up. But that was Orlando. That
was his thing about explaining. But-JJ:
I remember Division Pete and Andre were together.
ADR: Andre was another one that tried to-JJ:
And then Orlando was defending Ralph.
ADR: Who?
95
�JJ:
He was defending Ralph.
ADR: Right. You’re right.
JJ:
And that’s the time that I had to get in the middle because they were going to
destroy the group. And so I had to get in the middle. [02:38:00] And one time
Orlando was winning-- no, Andre was winning over Orlando because the ones
that started the fight was Division Pete and Spaghetti and Ralph. But then the
ones that did the fighting, those were the ones that started the fight. Division
Pete and Ralph, the ones that did the fighting was Orlando and Andre. See,
even though the other ones started the fight, it became a fight between Orlando
and Andre. And then Andre had Orlando for a while and I grabbed Andre. He
had him stuck and he was getting ready to do damage. And I came from behind
and grabbed, I grabbed Andre, and Andre told me, I’m going to kill you. You let
me go whatever. I said, well, let him get out of the fence so he could fight you
fair. Let him get out. So then I did that for him. [02:39:00] So then later on, it
was the other way around, it was Andre that was on the ground and Orlando was
ready to get him. And that’s when I grabbed Orlando and he told me the same
thing, I’m going to kill you son of a gun. So I said, okay, whatever, later on, but
let Andre get up. So I kept the fight balanced because I didn’t want the group to
destroy because there was a split between the group that hung around on
Wheeling and the old Lords, the core group like Orlando and Spaghetti and
yourself and other people that was a core group was I had to get in the middle
and play mediator. Do you recall that or no?
ADR: Who?
96
�JJ:
I had to get in the middle to keep it fair.
ADR: Right.
JJ:
Do you remember that at all or no? How do you remember that?
ADR: [02:40:00] You’re talking about a different fight.
JJ:
Oh, it’s a different fight? Okay.
ADR: That was a different fight.
JJ:
Okay. Alright.
ADR: The one I’m talking is where Orlando got drunk. It had nothing to do with no-- it
had nothing to do with that. The one, I realize what you’re talking, but you’re
talking about a completely different fight.
JJ:
Okay. But you had heard about that one.
ADR: Right.
JJ:
Okay. So that was the other one.
ADR: But the other one I’m referring to is when he just started going at the guys, it got
to the point that he didn’t recognize-- the only-- he ended up, for some reason,
that recognized me was me. I’m the only one that he didn’t pick a fight with in
that was drunk is what my point I’m trying to make. But you reminded me about
the fights. All these guys that came in that ended up being friends, you’re
forgetting one guy that would not mention that I haven’t mentioned hardly at all.
Carlos. Carlos, Raymond’s brother was very much part of it, but he was a quiet
[02:41:00] one. But he was in the thick of a lot of the fighting, a lot of the things
that we did, he was always there and we hardly ever mentioned him, but he was,
97
�all the fighting we did, he was always there fighting with us alongside of us. But
we hardly ever mentioned him because we-JJ:
He lived over by Halsted and Woodwright. There was a Spanish store
underneath and he lived in that building that was a big multi dwelling like you
said.
ADR: But he tended to be very quiet.
JJ:
Right, right.
ADR: Never really said anything much or anything else, but he was always there
fighting with us.
JJ:
Okay, now you’re in the service. Right? And you’re there from 1965 to 1968,
1966, 1967, 1968.
ADR: Right. That would’ve been, you can’t really count when you’re saying 1965-really that was November when I left at the end of November.
JJ:
Okay.
ADR: So you got one month [02:42:00] December and that was it from the month of
1965. So it-JJ:
So it was 1964?
ADR: So you’re really looking, I was going away from 1960- in other words, the three
years from 1966, 1967, 1968. I came back in November of 1968.
JJ:
Okay. Alright.
ADR: After the convention when I returned.
JJ:
After the Democrat convention. So now how--
ADR: When I went in, I was 17 years old.
98
�JJ:
Right.
ADR: Alright. And I wanted to be a paratrooper, but it turns out that this is how I ended
up, for whatever reasons, sometimes things happen, one doesn’t realize the
impact that it has on you. So I’m thinking that when you’re going to be a soldier,
you’re a soldier and that’s it, there was nothing other than you’re prepared for
war or you’re firing weapons and that kind. I’m 17 years old. But when I got in
and actually I left when I learned another important lesson [02:43:00] in life. That
particular night I got jumped. You remember that? Cha-Cha? You’re falling
asleep.
JJ:
Oh, I’m sorry. No, go ahead. Okay. No, we’re in the service. We’re in the
service.
ADR: Okay.
JJ:
And you wanted to be a paratrooper, you said?
ADR: That was from the Continentals. That’s why I have no dear love against your
cousin.
JJ:
My cousin Danny Rodriguez.
ADR: Yeah, Danny. What happened that night.
JJ:
President of the Continentals.
ADR: Danny, well, he got, in some ways, when you think in life some people get paid
back and it works both ways. But what happened that night was that, going back
to my younger years, well remember I met you when I was a Patrol Boy. When I
had been a Patrol Boy, it said the captain of the Patrol Boys, one of the
Continentals was one of my patrol boys. And [02:44:00] there was a girl-- we
99
�used to have the tunnel that went underneath the El tracks on the street and the
station was right there in the morning. He was trying to make out with one of the
girls, forcibly trying to kiss her. And obviously she didn’t want anything to do with
him. And I made the mistake-- I happened to see what had happened and I
said, leave her alone. He said something to me, again, you’re young, 12 years
old, whatever age I was at that point, whether I was 12 or 10, I clipped him, I hit
him, knocked him out. He tried to get up and fight me and beat the crap out him
and it was the end of it. Then I had him removed. I took away like I said the guy
was in charge, I had me charged and I kicked him out. Never did anything.
Years went by. But your cousin [02:45:00] was an asshole. He instigated him
because I found out about that later and the night when they found out that I was
leaving in the morning I was leaving, that I was going to go into the service.
Danny instigated the guy to get even with me. So as I was going down to Old
Town, remember that’s at the time we still hung out in Old Town. So that was the
last night. And I was on my way down to Old Town. I was walking down on
Armitage, passing Waller High School. He came from behind me and dropped
me, took me by surprise and dropped me. And I know (inaudible) when I turned
around, I started fighting him. And the Continentals, your cousin came up and I
said, this is bullshit. [02:46:00] So it was kind of, I never forgot that, but like I
said, and I never forgave him for that either. Kind of was laughing about it. I
said, it’s going to be paid back on this one. So when I got back up in there,
Ralph found out of him what happened that I had gotten jumped. We came back
and they were gone and we went looking for him because I was going into the
100
�service. Ralph said, don’t worry about it, Sal, I’m going to going get these guys.
And I was leaving that night. But the lesson I learned about that comes from this
is that if you’re fighting somebody, and that’s what I had done and reflecting on
that particular situation, is I humiliated the kid in my younger years. And that’s
something I learned is that if you’re fighting somebody [02:47:00] and you beat
’em, there’s a choice to be made at that point. You can either allow the guy to
get up gracefully and perhaps have a friend for life or you can beat the shit out of
him and have an enemy for sure for life. And that’s what I had done with that guy
when I knocked him the first punch when I had hit him. I mean, I found him and
knocked him that, but I ended up humiliating him because I kept letting him in
there humiliated in front of the girl, not realizing that he liked the girl. So in
beating the shit out him, keeping his ass further, I had humiliated him something
obviously he didn’t, never forgot. And your cousin fed that particular thing them
in place against our group. I mean, particularly to myself, because I think it was
[02:48:00] as much just like anything else, the Young Lords, I mean. Let me ask
a question that has to (inaudible) because it’s inside of your family. Was there
any (inaudible) that your cousin had about the Young Lords?
JJ:
Andy?
ADR: Yeah.
JJ:
Well, between me and him, because we were cousins, we already had a history
together. And so he didn’t show that to me. I mean, he more or less, he had his
group and then we had our group.
101
�ADR: I think he had an (inaudible) against the group because we were, remember they
came after we, at whatever point-JJ:
We were more fighters than they were. They more hung around at Newbury’s
playground. And so we were more fighters than they were. They were not really
that much into fighting. [02:49:00]
ADR: As a group-JJ:
One day we went to the police station because we were just playing games with
’em, just joking around with ’em. And they took us all to the police station and we
had to all stay until the parents came in and got everybody. But that’s the only
time that I know that they went to jail or that they fought. And we were just
playing games with ’em.
ADR: Oh, there was another gang fight. I mean, you’re talking, when we had a fight.
JJ:
I mean individuals came all the time, but I mean.
ADR: Do you remember the fight where they lined us up, the police, they had lined us
up.
JJ:
It was in the--
ADR: Who were we fighting that night?
JJ:
We were fighting them, but it was playing games. We weren’t really fighting.
Then the police arrested us all and then lined us up inside the police station,
made us do pushups, turned it into a festival (inaudible). [02:50:00] We were
having a good time.
ADR: But I mean, my point of what I’m trying to get you to reflect on something else. I
know that there was a mock fight, if you want to call it that, but the mock fight in
102
�itself-- I’m reflecting on something, on somebody that in later years
underhandedly-- that’s not a nice word. And it’s not what I’m really mean, but I
use the word (inaudible) because I can’t really describe anything what the Young
Lords ended up representing. And my point is that was there (inaudible) part of
your cousin in so far as the issue with the young Lord is we had become more
popular. We were better well known. And obviously we were much better
fighters than they were. They couldn’t even, you know.
JJ:
No, they weren’t into fighting. They weren’t into fighting. There were some
groups that were not into fighting. Like you said, [02:51:00] even the older ones,
the Black Eagles and Paragons, they didn’t even want to fight anymore. They
had lived through that and they didn’t want, in fact, the fighting was gone by
1968. There was no fighting. I mean, people were just, that’s when drugs came
into the neighborhood.
ADR: Well, for me, when I was gone first, like I said, what changed that number? What
changed? Now, one of the things when I got inducted in and when I went in, I
didn’t know that I was going to have to have a job in the Army, whether it was
going to be a cook, a driver, whatever. For some reason hadn’t, when I went in, I
hadn’t picked what I wanted to do because it was supposed to. I thought I was
miss, I just want to jump out of airplanes. I want to be a paratroop. And the
sergeant, when I was being inducted in kind of laughed. He said you’re not going
to be jumping planes every day. He says, you got to do some work. He says,
cook, things like that. Driver, what? [02:52:00] So at that point I’m thinking, what
the fuck am I supposed to do? I don’t even know. My mind is blank. What the
103
�fuck am I going to be? So he chose it for me. He looked at me and he said, you
know what? He says, you look like the kind of guy that likes to drive big
machines. So he marked me down as a heavy equipment operator and that’s
how I ended up becoming a heavy equipment operator.
ADR: So when I went in, after going to the training and all that, that I was trained and
originally I was going to be sent to Vietnam. The period, and a lot of to be said
about what things that I learned in the service, but I was 17 years old instead of
going to Vietnam at the point that when too many 17 year olds were dying,
getting killed in Vietnam, and obviously mothers were complaining to [02:53:00]
Johnson. Johnson decided to stop sending the 17 year olds. And it just so
happens when we were graduating out of our training, basic training in what they
call a AIT, advanced training into your particular occupation. So all the 17-yearold kids out of the class where we had been taught basic said to, they stopped us
and separated us from the rest of the older guys and said, you guys, they held us
back.
END OF VIDEO FILE
104
�
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c596581aa9b694020f577d4710517808.mp4
c372141b7cc234e8c25f46b8865008cc
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection
Subject
The topic of the resource
Young Lords (Organization)
Puerto Ricans--United States
Civil Rights--United States--History
Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.)
Personal narratives
Social justice
Community activists--Illinois--Chicago
Description
An account of the resource
Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives.
The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Jiménez, José, 1948-
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a>
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-04-25
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Format
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Language
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eng
spa
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-65
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
2012-2017
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Título
Spanish language Title entry
Angel “Sal” del Rivero vídeo entrevista y biografía, entrevista 2
Sujetos
Spanish language Subject terms
Young Lords (Organización)
Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos
Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia
Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.)
Mexicano-Americanos--Relatos personales
Justicia social
Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago
Mexicano-Americanos--Illinois--Chicago--Vida social y costumbres
Veteranos--Relatos Personales
Pandillas--Illinois--Chicago
Source
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a>
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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RHC-65_Rivero_Angel_del_2
Title
A name given to the resource
Angel “Sal” del Rivero video interview and transcript, interview 2
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Rivero, Angel del
Description
An account of the resource
Angel “Sal” del Rivero was born in Mexico. In the late 1950s and early 1960s he lived in Lincoln Park on Dayton Street. Later his family moved to the Lakeview Neighborhood near Wrigley Field. Mr. Rivero became one of the original members of the Young Lords in 1959. While the Young Lords were transforming themselves into a human rights movement, Mr. Rivero was serving in the U.S. military. When he came out most Young Lords were opposed to the Vietnam War, although many Young Lords also served on the front lines in that war. Mr. Rivero at first resented those who opposed the war. But after Young Lord Manuel Ramos was killed by an off duty policeman, the entire Young Lords group reunited themselves for human rights.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Jiménez, José, 1948-
Subject
The topic of the resource
Young Lords (Organization)
Puerto Ricans--United States
Civil Rights--United States--History
Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.)
Mexican Americans--Personal narratives
Social justice
Community activists--Illinois--Chicago
Mexican Americans--Illinois--Chicago--Social life and customs
Veterans--Personal narratives
Gangs--Illinois--Chicago
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video/mp4
application/pdf
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2012-07-12
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/42eef818cb4b61728ad060a8a3d7c951.jpg
1ac77a660379297d2b26f606ef827fe3
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/028b40a497462347b1048c8e375b7956.jpg
000aede2b671d59432fdba1babf62f67
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Civil War and Slavery Collection
Subject
The topic of the resource
United States--History--Civil War, 1861-1865
Slavery--United States
African Americans
United States--Politics and government--19th century
Description
An account of the resource
A selection of correspondence, diaries, official documents, photographs related to the American Civil War and to the institution of slavery, collected by Harvey E. Lemmen. The collection includes a selection of documents from ten states related to the ownership of slaves and abolition, correspondence and documents of soldiers who fought in the war and from family members and officials, diaries and letters of individuals, and a collection of mailing envelopes decorated with patriotic imagery.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Lemmen, Harvey E.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/472">Civil War and Slavery Collection (RHC-45)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/470">John Bennitt Diaries and Correspondence (RHC-43)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/471">Nathan Sargent Papers (RHC-44)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/478">Theodore Peticolas Diary (RHC-51)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/476">Civil War Patriotic Envelopes Collection (RHC-51)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/479">Whitely Read Diary (RHC-52)</a>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1804-1897
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
image/jpg; application/pdf
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Image; Text
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1804-1897
Text
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Angel protecting the Union and devil attached to seal of Alabama
Description
An account of the resource
Design shows angel protecting the Union and devil attached to seal of Alabama. Handpainted design in full color. C. Magnus, 12 Fankfort St., N.Y.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-49_PE046
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Image
Subject
The topic of the resource
United States--History--Civil War, 1861-1865
Postal service--United States--History
Covers (Philatety)--United States--History
Patriotic envelopes
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/476">Civil War patriotic envelopes, (RHC-49)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
image/jpeg
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Civil War and Slavery Collection
Subject
The topic of the resource
United States--History--Civil War, 1861-1865
Slavery--United States
African Americans
United States--Politics and government--19th century
Description
An account of the resource
A selection of correspondence, diaries, official documents, photographs related to the American Civil War and to the institution of slavery, collected by Harvey E. Lemmen. The collection includes a selection of documents from ten states related to the ownership of slaves and abolition, correspondence and documents of soldiers who fought in the war and from family members and officials, diaries and letters of individuals, and a collection of mailing envelopes decorated with patriotic imagery.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Lemmen, Harvey E.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/472">Civil War and Slavery Collection (RHC-45)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/470">John Bennitt Diaries and Correspondence (RHC-43)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/471">Nathan Sargent Papers (RHC-44)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/478">Theodore Peticolas Diary (RHC-51)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/476">Civil War Patriotic Envelopes Collection (RHC-51)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/479">Whitely Read Diary (RHC-52)</a>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1804-1897
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
image/jpg; application/pdf
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Image; Text
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1804-1897
Text
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Angel protecting the Union and devil attached to seal of Florida
Description
An account of the resource
Design shows angel protecting the Union and devil attached to seal of Florida. Handpainted design in full color. C. Magnus, 12 Fankfort St. N.Y.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-49_PE047
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Image
Subject
The topic of the resource
United States--History--Civil War, 1861-1865
Postal service--United States--History
Covers (Philatety)--United States--History
Patriotic envelopes
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/476">Civil War patriotic envelopes, (RHC-49)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
image/jpeg
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/de11ec98acd9082000ed36f9be60f428.jpg
1eeaa2ff4700e782c7eeed24dbba730c
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6386ae823fcb8484cc8a3353f41b25b1.jpg
9c843ee3fe45643a0ac6e7e657cc7fd5
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Civil War and Slavery Collection
Subject
The topic of the resource
United States--History--Civil War, 1861-1865
Slavery--United States
African Americans
United States--Politics and government--19th century
Description
An account of the resource
A selection of correspondence, diaries, official documents, photographs related to the American Civil War and to the institution of slavery, collected by Harvey E. Lemmen. The collection includes a selection of documents from ten states related to the ownership of slaves and abolition, correspondence and documents of soldiers who fought in the war and from family members and officials, diaries and letters of individuals, and a collection of mailing envelopes decorated with patriotic imagery.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Lemmen, Harvey E.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/472">Civil War and Slavery Collection (RHC-45)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/470">John Bennitt Diaries and Correspondence (RHC-43)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/471">Nathan Sargent Papers (RHC-44)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/478">Theodore Peticolas Diary (RHC-51)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/476">Civil War Patriotic Envelopes Collection (RHC-51)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/479">Whitely Read Diary (RHC-52)</a>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1804-1897
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
image/jpg; application/pdf
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Image; Text
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1804-1897
Text
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Angel protecting the Union and devil attached to seal of Georgia
Description
An account of the resource
Design shows angel protecting the Union and devil attached to seal of Georgia. Handpainted design in full color. C. Magnus, 12 Fankfort St., N.Y.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-49_PE048
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Image
Subject
The topic of the resource
United States--History--Civil War, 1861-1865
Postal service--United States--History
Covers (Philatety)--United States--History
Patriotic envelopes
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/476">Civil War patriotic envelopes, (RHC-49)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
image/jpeg
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
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49b05ba4c69c2f6a158d11fe9374f06c
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4d0cc193bfc62d3e416db3b461187ede
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Civil War and Slavery Collection
Subject
The topic of the resource
United States--History--Civil War, 1861-1865
Slavery--United States
African Americans
United States--Politics and government--19th century
Description
An account of the resource
A selection of correspondence, diaries, official documents, photographs related to the American Civil War and to the institution of slavery, collected by Harvey E. Lemmen. The collection includes a selection of documents from ten states related to the ownership of slaves and abolition, correspondence and documents of soldiers who fought in the war and from family members and officials, diaries and letters of individuals, and a collection of mailing envelopes decorated with patriotic imagery.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Lemmen, Harvey E.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/472">Civil War and Slavery Collection (RHC-45)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/470">John Bennitt Diaries and Correspondence (RHC-43)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/471">Nathan Sargent Papers (RHC-44)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/478">Theodore Peticolas Diary (RHC-51)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/476">Civil War Patriotic Envelopes Collection (RHC-51)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/479">Whitely Read Diary (RHC-52)</a>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1804-1897
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
image/jpg; application/pdf
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Image; Text
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1804-1897
Text
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Angel protecting the Union and devil attached to seal of Louisiana
Description
An account of the resource
Design shows angel protecting the Union and devil attached to seal of Louisiana. Handpainted design in full color. C. Magnus, 12 Fankfort St., N.Y.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-49_PE049
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Image
Subject
The topic of the resource
United States--History--Civil War, 1861-1865
Postal service--United States--History
Covers (Philatety)--United States--History
Patriotic envelopes
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/476">Civil War patriotic envelopes, (RHC-49)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
image/jpeg
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1059688538a36e2dc61a3506b51270d8.jpg
b78b10713f1fa599ae299008104bdda5
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d40b987020881a323059da081e8cce61.jpg
37bef19a657c350306fd87ba7db50f6f
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Civil War and Slavery Collection
Subject
The topic of the resource
United States--History--Civil War, 1861-1865
Slavery--United States
African Americans
United States--Politics and government--19th century
Description
An account of the resource
A selection of correspondence, diaries, official documents, photographs related to the American Civil War and to the institution of slavery, collected by Harvey E. Lemmen. The collection includes a selection of documents from ten states related to the ownership of slaves and abolition, correspondence and documents of soldiers who fought in the war and from family members and officials, diaries and letters of individuals, and a collection of mailing envelopes decorated with patriotic imagery.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Lemmen, Harvey E.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/472">Civil War and Slavery Collection (RHC-45)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/470">John Bennitt Diaries and Correspondence (RHC-43)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/471">Nathan Sargent Papers (RHC-44)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/478">Theodore Peticolas Diary (RHC-51)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/476">Civil War Patriotic Envelopes Collection (RHC-51)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/479">Whitely Read Diary (RHC-52)</a>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1804-1897
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
image/jpg; application/pdf
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Image; Text
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1804-1897
Text
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Angel protecting the Union and devil attached to seal of North Carolina
Description
An account of the resource
Design shows angel protecting the Union and devil attached to seal of North Carolina. Handpainted design in full color. C. Magnus, 12 Fankfort St., N.Y.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-49_PE050
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Image
Subject
The topic of the resource
United States--History--Civil War, 1861-1865
Postal service--United States--History
Covers (Philatety)--United States--History
Patriotic envelopes
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/476">Civil War patriotic envelopes, (RHC-49)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
image/jpeg
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/569599253017e976c1fc8a5857cc0dba.jpg
0fbe7c5c2185fdb6b3203521ad7c867d
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/24f6a17f10ca783c87a91893326ada4b.jpg
c8ba8a4979cc939b1d3199d964c0e108
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Civil War and Slavery Collection
Subject
The topic of the resource
United States--History--Civil War, 1861-1865
Slavery--United States
African Americans
United States--Politics and government--19th century
Description
An account of the resource
A selection of correspondence, diaries, official documents, photographs related to the American Civil War and to the institution of slavery, collected by Harvey E. Lemmen. The collection includes a selection of documents from ten states related to the ownership of slaves and abolition, correspondence and documents of soldiers who fought in the war and from family members and officials, diaries and letters of individuals, and a collection of mailing envelopes decorated with patriotic imagery.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Lemmen, Harvey E.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/472">Civil War and Slavery Collection (RHC-45)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/470">John Bennitt Diaries and Correspondence (RHC-43)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/471">Nathan Sargent Papers (RHC-44)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/478">Theodore Peticolas Diary (RHC-51)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/476">Civil War Patriotic Envelopes Collection (RHC-51)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/479">Whitely Read Diary (RHC-52)</a>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1804-1897
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
image/jpg; application/pdf
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Image; Text
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1804-1897
Text
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Angel protecting the Union and devil attached to seal of Tennessee
Description
An account of the resource
Design shows angel protecting the Union and devil attached to seal of Tennessee. Handpainted design in full color. C. Magnus, 12 Fankfort St., N.Y.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-49_PE051
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Image
Subject
The topic of the resource
United States--History--Civil War, 1861-1865
Postal service--United States--History
Covers (Philatety)--United States--History
Patriotic envelopes
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/476">Civil War patriotic envelopes, (RHC-49)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
image/jpeg
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/0b5166aec63c5637696f4dfe9e5df0a1.jpg
232cb7f51e6ebbfe8a5c15c2efc337bd
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8a99d178b3fbe9f2c76b4ef885f119c1.jpg
cc269b9c8d316f9bb102cc3f9d8976da
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Civil War and Slavery Collection
Subject
The topic of the resource
United States--History--Civil War, 1861-1865
Slavery--United States
African Americans
United States--Politics and government--19th century
Description
An account of the resource
A selection of correspondence, diaries, official documents, photographs related to the American Civil War and to the institution of slavery, collected by Harvey E. Lemmen. The collection includes a selection of documents from ten states related to the ownership of slaves and abolition, correspondence and documents of soldiers who fought in the war and from family members and officials, diaries and letters of individuals, and a collection of mailing envelopes decorated with patriotic imagery.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Lemmen, Harvey E.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/472">Civil War and Slavery Collection (RHC-45)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/470">John Bennitt Diaries and Correspondence (RHC-43)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/471">Nathan Sargent Papers (RHC-44)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/478">Theodore Peticolas Diary (RHC-51)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/476">Civil War Patriotic Envelopes Collection (RHC-51)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/479">Whitely Read Diary (RHC-52)</a>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1804-1897
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
image/jpg; application/pdf
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Image; Text
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1804-1897
Text
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Angel protecting the Union and devil attached to seal of Texas
Description
An account of the resource
Design shows angel protecting the Union and devil attached to seal of Texas. Handpainted design in full color. C. Magnus, 12 Fankfort St., N.Y.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-49_PE052
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Image
Subject
The topic of the resource
United States--History--Civil War, 1861-1865
Postal service--United States--History
Covers (Philatety)--United States--History
Patriotic envelopes
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/476">Civil War patriotic envelopes, (RHC-49)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
image/jpeg
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2afb4bb6853d5c1fd65480a76de4e18b.jpg
a45639395887673c9773143dd0f70410
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/31cd0855a4f3b5824e5d336f2b7b1da1.jpg
115f2206bf396f6eca5b9e54b8df34f5
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Civil War and Slavery Collection
Subject
The topic of the resource
United States--History--Civil War, 1861-1865
Slavery--United States
African Americans
United States--Politics and government--19th century
Description
An account of the resource
A selection of correspondence, diaries, official documents, photographs related to the American Civil War and to the institution of slavery, collected by Harvey E. Lemmen. The collection includes a selection of documents from ten states related to the ownership of slaves and abolition, correspondence and documents of soldiers who fought in the war and from family members and officials, diaries and letters of individuals, and a collection of mailing envelopes decorated with patriotic imagery.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Lemmen, Harvey E.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/472">Civil War and Slavery Collection (RHC-45)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/470">John Bennitt Diaries and Correspondence (RHC-43)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/471">Nathan Sargent Papers (RHC-44)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/478">Theodore Peticolas Diary (RHC-51)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/476">Civil War Patriotic Envelopes Collection (RHC-51)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/479">Whitely Read Diary (RHC-52)</a>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1804-1897
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
image/jpg; application/pdf
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Image; Text
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1804-1897
Text
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Angel protecting the Union and devil attached to seal of Virginia
Description
An account of the resource
Design shows angel protecting the Union and devil attached to seal of Virginia. Handpainted design in full color. C. Magnus, 12 Fankfort St., N.Y.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-49_PE053
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Image
Subject
The topic of the resource
United States--History--Civil War, 1861-1865
Postal service--United States--History
Covers (Philatety)--United States--History
Patriotic envelopes
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/476">Civil War patriotic envelopes, (RHC-49)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
image/jpeg
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2147bd4f72c906815f5a95eae29c7c3c.jpg
2236ff7c58340ffb261071db2ccfdf25
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/344dcf1c5227c947dce848f5c310b584.jpg
bccd99f8a254d97e43433fef9be23ea3
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Civil War and Slavery Collection
Subject
The topic of the resource
United States--History--Civil War, 1861-1865
Slavery--United States
African Americans
United States--Politics and government--19th century
Description
An account of the resource
A selection of correspondence, diaries, official documents, photographs related to the American Civil War and to the institution of slavery, collected by Harvey E. Lemmen. The collection includes a selection of documents from ten states related to the ownership of slaves and abolition, correspondence and documents of soldiers who fought in the war and from family members and officials, diaries and letters of individuals, and a collection of mailing envelopes decorated with patriotic imagery.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Lemmen, Harvey E.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/472">Civil War and Slavery Collection (RHC-45)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/470">John Bennitt Diaries and Correspondence (RHC-43)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/471">Nathan Sargent Papers (RHC-44)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/478">Theodore Peticolas Diary (RHC-51)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/476">Civil War Patriotic Envelopes Collection (RHC-51)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/479">Whitely Read Diary (RHC-52)</a>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1804-1897
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
image/jpg; application/pdf
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Image; Text
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1804-1897
Text
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Angel with banner
Description
An account of the resource
Design shows angel with banner and "The Union now henceforth & for ever Amen!." Design in blue on white envelope. Envelope is addressed to Miss Carrie Tillotson, stamped and cancelled.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-49_PE155
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Image
Subject
The topic of the resource
United States--History--Civil War, 1861-1865
Postal service--United States--History
Covers (Philatety)--United States--History
Patriotic envelopes
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/476">Civil War patriotic envelopes, (RHC-49)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
image/jpeg
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives