244 24 26018 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/dcdedf4309376bafa510146020142762.pdf 3c165b4b6e8dfccd10e356d4ab40536d PDF Text Text The ..,...._.,, -0 ~ WOMEN'S CENTER Invites you ... 0~fting an •--V1olence. ,;tt·A ' ·- . ~ ~ October 2011 Monday, October 3rd, 20 4:00 p.m. in Kirkhof Center Room 2204 ReACT! is a new peer theatre education troupe that uses interactive theatre methods, performed live by GVSU student actors, to stop incidents of dating and domestic violence, sexual assault, and stalking. Audience members will explore how they can engage in realistic, safe and effective methods for preventing and ending violence. Thursday, October 6th, 2011 6:00 p.m. in Grand River Room, Kirkhof Center Gail Griffin, professor and author will share connections between relationship violence and larger cultural patterns through a reading and discussion around her book "The Events of October" MurderSuicide on a Small Campus. Griffin's book explores the larger issues of dating violence, gun accessibility, and depression and suicide on campus. Wednesday, October 12th, 2011 12:30 p.m. in DeVos Exhibition Hall Silent Witness: Remembering Lives Lost to Domestic and Dating Violence The Silent Witness Program is an annual event held at GVSU to remember the women & children from Michigan that have died because of domestic or dating violence in the last year. The individuals are represented by full-size cutouts with a story assigned to each witness. Readers represent GVSU student organizations, faculty, staff and community members. *For individuals needing special accommodations please contact the Women's Center at: 616-331-2748 or womenctr@gvsu~edu. ~ Women!J,Center @ GRAND'Vlli..EY STATElJNivERsrry WOMEN'S CENTER 1201 Kirkhof Center womenctr@gvsu.edu (616) 331 - 2748 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource GVSU Sexuality and Gender Flyers Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource The Rainbow Resource Center Women and Gender Studies Department Women's Commission Gayle R. Davis Center for Women and Gender Equity Description An account of the resource Digitized posters, flyers, event notices, and other materials relating to gender expression and sexuality at Grand Valley State University, with materials spanning from 1974 to 2019. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1974/2019 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Digitized from collections at the Rainbow Resource Center (formerly the Milton E. Ford LGBT Resource Center), Women and Gender Studies Department, Women's Commission, and Gayle R. Davis Center for Women and Gender Equity. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Subject The topic of the resource Gender identity Gender expression Sexual orientation Women's studies Queer theory Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections and University Archives. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-09 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Language A language of the resource eng Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-09_SGF_2011_Dating-Domestic-Violence-Awareness-Month-Handout.pdf Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Women's Center Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-10-03/2011-10-12 Title A name given to the resource Dating and Domestic Violence Awareness Month Description An account of the resource Flyer with information on three events intent on preventing dating and domestic violence. Gail Griffin will also give a talk on her book. Subject The topic of the resource Community centers National Domestic Violence Awareness Month Dating violence Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Women's Center Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/36a7ebc6a9de10659925035ae9add82f.pdf 6db5b7a67e3b2fa91dfcd44deaf895f7 PDF Text Text Dating & Domestic Violence Awareness Month October 2011 ReACT! Monday, October 3, 2011 4:00pm Grand Valley State University Kirkhof Center- 2204 A new peer theatre education troupe that uses Interactive theatre methods, performed live by GVSU student actors to stop incidents of dating and domestic violence, sexual assault and stalking. Audience members will explore how they can engage in realistic, safe, and effective methods for preventing and ending violence. "THE EVENTS OF OCTOBER" MurderSuicide on a Small Campus Thursday, October 6, 2011 6:00pm Grand Val ley State University Kirkhof Center- Grand River Room Gail Griffin, Distinguished Professor of English at Kal ama zoo College, w ill talk about the events that surrounded the murder/suicide that unfolded on Kal amazoo's campus in the fall of 1999 . The book she wrote is about a tragic event that explores the lmger issues of intimate partner violence, gun accessibility, depression and suicide on campus. Came and learn about the event that changed a college campus forever: SILENT WITNESS PROGRAM: Remembering Lives Lost to Domesti c a nd D atin g Vio le nce Wednesday, October 12, 2011 12:30pm Grand Va lley State University DC- l05E. Hager-Lubbers Exhibition Hal l The Silent Witness Program is an annual event held at GVSU to remember the women and children from Michigan that have died because of domestic or dating violence in the last year. The individuals are represented by full -size cutouts with a story assigned to each w itness. Readers represent GVSU student organizations, faculty, s.ta.ff and community members. Get Involved. Take Action. Make A Difference. Sponsored by GVSU Women's Center. Center for Women in T·ons1t1on. GVSU Women & G ender Studies, ond Eyes W,de Open Student Orgornzot,on For individuals requ iring special accamodations, pleose call the Women·s Center ot @ GRANDVALLEY 5TATElJNivERSITY WOMEN'S CENTER 616.331.2748 or email at womenctr@gvsu .edu � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource GVSU Sexuality and Gender Flyers Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource The Rainbow Resource Center Women and Gender Studies Department Women's Commission Gayle R. Davis Center for Women and Gender Equity Description An account of the resource Digitized posters, flyers, event notices, and other materials relating to gender expression and sexuality at Grand Valley State University, with materials spanning from 1974 to 2019. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1974/2019 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Digitized from collections at the Rainbow Resource Center (formerly the Milton E. Ford LGBT Resource Center), Women and Gender Studies Department, Women's Commission, and Gayle R. Davis Center for Women and Gender Equity. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Subject The topic of the resource Gender identity Gender expression Sexual orientation Women's studies Queer theory Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections and University Archives. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-09 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Language A language of the resource eng Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-09_SGF_2011_Dating-Domestic-Violence-Awareness-Month.pdf Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Women's Center Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-10-03/2011-10-12 Title A name given to the resource Dating and Domestic Violence Awareness Month Description An account of the resource Flyer with information on three events intent on preventing dating and domestic violence. Gail Griffin will also give a talk on her book. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource GVSU Women's Center, Center for Women in Transition, GVSU Women and Gender Studies, Eyes Wide Open Student Organization Subject The topic of the resource Community centers National Domestic Violence Awareness Month Dating violence Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Women's Center Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/78f1628354a0d42e3b152c627fbbcbf8.MP3 d6b6654056dd5b4a6614aa37f303f013 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/fc761d35851dc0dd6594655daadf5afa.pdf f35504f0ccfe16a5e4019192491d8877 PDF Text Text Dave Karpowicz interviewed by Ken Kutzel and Eric Gollanek October 1, 2018 KK: This is Ken Kutzel, and I'm here today with Eric Gollaneck. We're interviewing Dave Karpowicz. at the old schoolhouse up in the art gallery in Douglas, Michigan. It's October 1st, 2018. This oral history is being collected as part of the Stories of Summer Project which is supported in part by Grant from the National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage program. Thank you for taking the time to talk with us today. We're interested to learn more about your family history and your experiences of summer in the Saugatuck-Douglas area. Can you please tell your full name and spell it? DK: Dave Karpowicz. K A R P as in Peter O W I C like in cat. Z like in zebra. KK: Thank you. What can you tell us about where you grew up? DK: I actually grew up in Chicago, right by Midway Airport. I was four blocks away from Midway Airport in a little subdivision called Cleary. KK: Okay, so how did you end up-? What are some of the most vivid memories of your childhood? DK: Oh, I think where you're interested in is how I ended up at the seminary that was part of the Phelp's Mansion. Okay. I belong to a Parish called Saint Rita, and at that time, a recruiter from the Augustian order, Father Dudley Day, came around and started talking to the kids, especially alter boys, seeing if they wanted to pursue a possible life in the priesthood and I was recruited and decided to give it a shot. KK: And can you kind of put that in a time frame? DK: We're talking.. I was my high school class with the class of seventy. So I was recruited in the fall. Well, it would have been before school let out, so it would have been June-ish of 66. My first year there was in 66. okay. September of 66. KK: So, you can continue your story now. DK: Okay. KK: Sorry, I wanted to kind of clarify that. DK: So, I came out with my family. they drove me out, dropped me off and life as a seminarian began. For me, it was a new start. It was like I was only coming out of eighth grade, so there's not a whole lot to start from, but it was time that time that I got to put all of that history behind and start fresh in the new environment that was different for everybody going through it at the same time. I was some I think you might wanna know. �Back that time, the Phelps Mansion was used as a convent for Spanish nuns. I believe that the people, the nuns that cooked for us were Spanish nuns, and I think they lived in there. But, I think there was also a cloistered sect of nuns that lived in there. As you look from what is now the Phelps Mansion across that field, that was the athletic field and you'd be looking right at the seminary at the front. The seminary ran north to south three-story building cinder-black building. The far-left side as you're looking from Phelps Mansion was where the refractory was at. A lot of a lot of priest came into the seminary environment to retire. So, there's a lot of old folks there and then after the Refractory, there's this long a row of buildings. Again, it was three stories. As you walk down the hallway from the re- from where the priests were at, across you had dorms. First of all, you- you have a refractory, beautiful windows overlooked which would be the back side which would be with the Frisbee golf is at now. The early tees of the Frisbee golf. For those folks who walk the property now the seminary is pretty much where the bicycle track. Okay. It was up on that ridge. if you walked there, you can see bits and pieces of the tile that was destroyed when the seminary got destroyed. 5:04 DK: I believe that I was in the second year that that particular building was there. It wasn't much longer than that. I don't think that it was the third year, I think that it was the second year that it existed, and as you walk down that hallway in the main - you- the Refractory had beautiful windows that would have looked out to the West. Coming down the hallway, you would have at dorms. which would be like finger finger appendages off the left-hand side. The right-hand side was all the classrooms in the middle of the building. There was a library and the chapel was right across from the library continuing down two more sets of of dorms here in the classrooms on the right-hand side. The gym was in the back end. KK: Oh, okay. DK: I know that a lot of the kids who played basketball in Saugatuck played in the in that gym. we played them several times and they just came in practice every now and then. The gym was kind of a crappy gym. It had tile floors. So, it was slippery all the time. Let's see, what else do I have to tell you. The property was different than it is now. when you when you came in to the road. that led that leads to the Phelps mansion there's tennis courts in the right hand side. You see those tennis courts? Well opposite of that that right on the road, there were barricades in there. So, Phelps was considered to be… oh, I can't think a of word. but he was a collector of animals. That pond that was in there used to have alligators in that pond there were two barricades. As you take the road bends to the right a little bit. Well, if you went to the left over there and went up that hill, he tried to do the perpetual motion machine up on top of that hill which is kind of an interesting thing. KK: M-hm. DK: There used to be some real nice hikes up in there. when I was growing up. what else can I tell you all? Okay. As you were - if you walking now and you decided to go into the Saugatuck State Park and you take the road to your right, it kind of bends to the left heads out to the right �some more. It passes a wet, a wet area over there. That used to be called the Swamp and that's where ice-skating... We spent most of the winter cleaning off the brush, you know. KK: Sure. DK: And cutting down weeds and stuff and then it would freeze and you would play and they would dig in few a holes in the ice and keep pouring water on there, but that's where the hockey was played. From the Phelps Mansion, there's a hill that to the right. If you’re looking at the mansion from the seminary the hill on the left-hand side. I kinda get lost in the directions there but the other side of that hill, there was a big bar, a huge barn, and an open field. They used to be called the Nun's Field. There's another little football area, that's where they play softball and stuff. But, the barn was two-story barn, and it's claim to fame was that every Halloween the senior class put on what they call Guadeamas, or a play. Let us rejoice, the Latin for "Let us Rejoice" and it was a play and I remember the first year. There I was others again. I would have been there for six weeks now, or five weeks. We met up there. We walked from the seminary grounds into the Phelps Mansion and all. And then, we went over that hill into the barn and the barn had hay bales all over for seating all over. There's people in the rafters and stuff and I've never seen anything like that before. And, it was a terrific play and most of it was jokes about the priest and stuff like that, but it was a great experience. It was snowing that day, too. It was just kinda cold snowing. A snowy Halloween. I remember some, I remember some yeah. and then, what else can I tell you? From the building, course a lot of athletics were in that field between the two buildings. 10:00 DK: The back end of it where the dorms protruded out that was kind of a septic system back in there. But the road… It was called Beach Road now. It's kind of from the Phelps Mansion. You're looking across. You take that road, first road that's- it would be on your right-hand side. You walk off and it curves to the right and up this hill. That's where all the tobogganing and sledding used to be. KK: Oh, okay. DK: You used to go over that ridge then you have probably half mile run so the toboggans and those saucers and stuff and get on top of hill and just kinda slide on down. It was great fun. It was it was super. Oh, I don't know… What else you guys wanna know? The high school is high school stuff. KK: Well, so, did you have any contact with town? Did you go in? Did you hear stuff about it? You guys were out there. DK: We did get to go to town, into Saugatuck but I was a fourteen-year-old kid, you know, with not a lot of money and it wasn't much to do other than go to the drug store. You went up to the drug store and we have like an hour, hour and a half every week. To be honest with you, I went once or twice, I got bored. Well, wasn't much to do for me but other guys went every weekend. So, we went to the drug store, walked up and down, saw the you know saw the gardens and stuff �and then again hey, where I was at, I would much rather be on the property, exploring, doing playing ball or something. KK: You know, you said you played other schools and all that. Did you know go like for sports did you go to other schools? Tell us a little about that. DK: Most of the sports were intramural, so you know we just played different teams within the school Basketball, we did play other schools in basketball. I wasn't on the baseball team, but they played other schools in baseball too. We didn't have many home games. The gym was small. You know, they couldn't deal with any sort of crowds whatsoever so but I do know that we played Saint Joe one time and I do know Saugatuck and I can't remember the others, but they were from their perspective, it was a gimme game, it was just, yeah let's entertain them because they were much better than we were. In … ‘68. Well, ‘67. I can get the years mixed up. My freshman year, went during the basketball season with and in sixty seven, the team went to the beginning of the state playoffs. We had a big team. The center was big. The forwards were big. And then, everybody could shoot. I mean it was it was a good team, but they had no endurance and the end of the three quarters way through the game, they weren't conditioned to go for a whole game, and ended up losing. The second year, they worked on conditioning quite a bit but all the talent graduated and that's. You can never get it all right. that's, that's kinda how that went. The biggest thing about the sports was probably that the team spirit. We knew we we're gonna get basically slaughtered out there but those people who went to the games were all wearing white and black and it would be. The cheerleaders would be going nuts and I mean it would be all over, doing the best they could do. EG: Yeah. KK: Now, you stayed there all year? Or did you go home in the summer? DK: We went home in the summer. We came in and right after Labor Day and then way they worked it out is that every month, either your parents came in or we went home. In October, the parents would come in. That was my mom's favorite time. She would- she would love that drive as you drive into the seminary because of the trees and stuff. she said it just was outstanding. November, of course, we go home for Thanksgiving Christmas go home for Thanksgiving. They came up… I know that parents were here in May, because we went to the Tulip Festival and I knew it it was on Mother's Day because of that. 14:52 DK: In summer the time we went home. [Chuckles] Back in those days it cost four hundred dollars a month to go to the Seminary and extra forty bucks to do laundry. So, that was room and board for four hundred dollars. It was different then. KK: Yeah. So how big of a class did you have? �DK: Probably started always fifty-five. Okay, and by the end of the first semester, you were probably down to forty in the graduating class. My first year the senior class was pretty big. They probably graduated … maybe thirty? But, I've seen graduating classes as low as twenty. KK: Did everybody live on campus? Or were there kids that came in from- from elsewhere? DK: No. To the best of my knowledge, everyone lived right there. Lived right there. That was part of the experience, you know, the routine, the chapel time and all that, but there may have been there may have been one or two that just kinda came in from the outside. KK: So did you have all priests or brothers for teachers? Or how? DK: Yeah. They were all clergy. KK: All male? DK: Hmm? KK: All male? DK: Yes. KK: The reason that I ask that is because you know we're the same age and we started the lay teachers, even in the Catholic schools back then, so I'm just comparing. DK: I remember most of them being priests. Were there one or two that weren't, that might have been. I don't know what they would have taught. I don't know. you know I don't remember ever going to class with those was a lay person but they may have been. KK: Did you… Did you ultimately become a brother or whatever? DK: No, I stayed through my junior year and then left after my junior year, ended up going on. Kennedy High School in Chicago. KK: Oh, okay. DK: That's where I finished up my high school career. KK: Was it different, going back to a regular public high school? DK: Because I was a senior, I figured it was a one-year deal. You know, I wasn't gonna make a lot of long-lasting friendships. I just kinda put in my time. Got through the year and called it good and started college. KK: Have you made any- have you stayed in contact with anybody from the monastery? �DK: Yeah. Yeah. Several kids in my class. One or two. My turns out that my neighbor from across the street was a year younger than I was. He went to the seminary also. We're still in contact. KK: Okay. So, I know in between you lived in California for a while, didn't you? DK: Yeah, we did. KK: What made you come back here? Well, tell us about California, first. DK: Well, I was trained as an accountant, so I did accounting work and then had an entrepreneurial bend and Anita was at a nonprofit executive. She ended up in a car wreck. I don't know what they call it. AK: Sloshed my brain around is the technical term. KK: Okay. And by the way, Anita is also here. That's his wife. DK: So, Anita was looking for something to sell and she thought if she could sell, she could make a living out of doing that, because the nonprofit work wasn't gonna happen anymore. And, she came across as product called a Pillow Pet. I don't know if you remember but it's a pillow that opens up and into a pet. KK: Okay, yeah, I remember that. DK: Yeah, you might have. Anyway, we ended up, Anita's family lives in San Luis Obispo County and we are selling these Pillow Pets at shows and festivals around California. That's were living at the time and decided that we would decide basically that if people were buying them out of a booth, they'll buy them out of a store. So, we had the money. Anita found a four hundred square foot store in downtown San Luis Obispo. 19:54 DK: We started there. In the meantime, the people who run the Pillow Pet business, the creator of it put on… decided to go into “As Seen on TV” commercials. She bombarded children's stations with these Pillow Pets, and, all of the sudden, she created a demand where there was no supply. We were the only one of the only one of the only few suppliers, so we were shipping Pillow Pets like you wouldn't believe. At one time, we… At one time, we had three stores and two warehouses. AK: And an online. DK: And an online. The online was richer. So that was, we called it riding the wave in. So, we… we started with, it was a brand-new concept, saw that demand go way high then, once you start seeing them in Best Buy all the hardware stores in Target, the quality got cheaper because the owner of the company got pressured to basically license her stuff to somebody else. And all of �that took place, demand started dropping. We start shutting stores. I went back to accounting for a while. That's what I did. whenever the entrepreneurial effort has played out, I went back into accounting. AK: It was a great ride though. DK: It was fun. AK: Oh my god, it was fun. [Laughs] AK: A heck of a lot of work, but yeah. We picked San Luis Obispo because they have the largest Farmers Market in the co- in the State of California. It's all year long. Because we had the store in a certain place, we could already be in this huge farmers market that's a big party. So, we can just sell it once a week in terms of people from away. It was awesome. That's interesting. It was is kinda fun. KK: So, what brought you back to Michigan? DK: Go ahead. AK: Jerry Walsh was our realtor in San Luis Obispo. Jerry Walsh and I became friends and she grew up in this area and so she has a house over here on North Union Street. We came to visit her last year and we had a great time and then this year. We had a big fire we were are living in Durango and we ended up coming to visit her because she's kind enough to let us come here. There was smoke everywhere in Durango and so she talked to us and we had a great time while visiting, and now we're here. [Laughs] Now, we live here. KK: Well, welcome! AK: Thank you. KK: Welcome. It is interesting. What're you're you know when you came back, because both of you had lived away, or you probably didn't lived here at all… What were your initial impressions? Can you, you know, talk about that a little bit, coming back here? DK: Well, of course I see the world through different eyes. I see how busy it is in the summer. I see if how much fun people are having at the beach. We walked in. Back in the 70s and 80s, we walked the Beach Road in the summer, but it was still too cold to get in the water by, you know, early June late May early June. It was kinda chilly so we never even went swimming there. But, we've lived in some beautiful resort-type communities. San Luis Obispo was one of them. Morrow Bay, and Durango is a is a joyous community so we're used to that and were uses to seasonality of it and love the busyness love to see the stores busy and love the quieter times too. That's what I notice, the people have a lot of fun down. They were just having a lot of fun shopping. having coffee eating in the restaurants playing on the beach. It's just... a lot of fun. �KK: Okay. Do you have any other questions? We're gonna look here. EG: You can talk a little bit about your time in the seminary here in the school year. What was a typical day like? Or a typical week like? DK: Sure. Days started at six o'clock. We were living in the dorm and the dorm is just one. 24:55 DK: It had twenty beds in it, say two sets of five, the way I'm remembering it, it could be be more than thirty beds. This is a wall separating beds on both sides basically. one door led to the sink room and the restrooms the other door led to the priest monitor of that dorm. Days would start at six o'clock, and it depends on what year you're talking about because this is right after Vatican two, so a lot of changes were happening in the church and the seminary back in in the very beginning when I was a freshman. I wanna say that we started with mass first thing, but I could be wrong, but I know do that there was a chapel time in the beginning. Then we went to the refractory and ate. The refractory had tables of ten people, ten guys mixed classes. Okay so wasn't like you… you were assigned a table. It wasn't like you in like you go sit with you but your friends all time. Each table and seniors and stuff, and the way it works is once Grace was said, somebody from the table went in the kitchen area, and brought the food out for the table, and breakfast was served that way. Lunch is at noon hour-ish. School in the morning. Lunch, school till about three o'clock, and then everybody had to leave the building for… I wanna say an hour or hour and a half between 3:00 and 4:30 sometimes. So, everyone was forced outside to do something so that's when all the intermural athletics were we're done and all the hiking around and stuff. We come back in and we shower go back into the chapel. Kind of a meditation period. The priests would be doing their vespers or whatever they're doing and we just had quiet time the chapel for a while and then back to the refractory for dinner after dinner. Mandatory study hall for two hours from like 7:00-7:00 with a fifteen-minute break in there. Then, after that, you're free for an hour and then back to bed at 10:00, lights out at 10:00. That's pretty the typical day. KK: That's pretty tight schedule. EG: That's a pretty tight schedule. DK: Pretty tight. KK: Now, was that five days a week? DK: The only thing, it was 10-6 at least six days a week. There may have been one day where was it a little bit longer, at least in the beginning. Yeah. Yeah it seems like it loosened up some of the priests that were running the shows said, “You know you guys have to be responsible enough to go to bed when you're tired. So, we're not gonna put on the 10:00 thing anymore, but we're still getting up at six.” You know, the schedule change a little bit like that. So, whoever �wasrunning the show kinda set their own rules for what they were what they felt comfortable with. Yeah. Go ahead. EG: What was the food like? What were some things that stood out that you remember eating? Was it good? They had- Was it Spartan? Was it – DK: So, lunches seemed to be better than dinners and they had some type of a Spanish rice deal that I've never seen duplicated that was just delicious. Just outstanding. I mean it was a good day when you got Spanish rice. [Laughs] It was a good day they when had hamburgers too. They were huge hamburgers and it was just delicious and I can't remember much of the other meals of course they were. Whatever you ate at dinner time would be in the lunch meal somehow. I mean, very little waste going. I remember a lot of the food that peanut butter particular came from the government. I mean [indistinguishable] Looked like a paint can filled of peanut butter with about an inch and a half of oil in there. So, I remember that the rice came infive gallon or five-pound things of rice so that was that was kinda how that was. 29:48 DK: What else can I tell you that's kind of fun? Some of the things in the dorm were really pretty funny. You know that these are all- again, they're in all the same boat. It’s not like there were mixed classes in the dorm yet all the freshman in the same dorm. One time, there was a whippoor-will in the springtime. Every morning about four o'clock is calling out calling out calling out. One of the kids just lost it. He ran down that fire escape. "I'm gonna get that damn bird!" Chased him down, trying to get that whip-poor-will. The way that thing was laid out was that from the dorm to the fire escape in the back went down into the locker room for that dorm. So, we basically got two lockers: one in the dorm area and one down below for the outdoor stuff. That is Saturday. You might be interested in that. Saturdays were around the house chore days. Everybody all week long everybody was assigned a task for a month. you know you may have toilets. You might have sink room. You might have the dorm, you might have a hallway, you might have a classroom. Where ever it was assigned you had for month. On Saturday, it was thorough cleaning day, so and so instead of classes after breakfast in the morning, people will go down into the room where you pick up your mops and you pick up your all that stuff. Buckets and mops, cleaning utensils and stuff. Go ahead. Then, Saturday afternoon was one of the days they would head up to Saugatuck. A lot of guys would go on Saturday afternoon up there. KK: How long was the monastery or the school, how long had it been there when you went there, and how long did it last after you left? DK: The best I can figure this out is that they were using the Phelps Mansion. as the seminary itself. Then, they built the one that I went to the year prior. and that would've been 67 would have been year two. In 72, they sold the building to the state, which made it a low some type of a prison. �KK: It was a prison after. A friend of mine was an auto guard there. DK: So, you'd know more about that than I would. KK: Yeah. DK: They made that into there and what is now the Saugatuck State Park used to be part of the seminary system. One of the recruiting two tools was four hundred acres. So, we used to take those saucers and if you didn't go down to Beach Road. You kind of veered off towards the dunes. Closer to the lake. The goal was to ride that saucer fast enough down those dunes, you'd hit the last thing, you'd catapult up in the air, and you'd land on the beach. That was the goal. [laughs] EG: How often could you do that? When the conditions were right, was that feasible? DK: It was doable. Trouble is it wasn't fun once you did it. [Laugh] You hit pretty hard coming down. It was like, man…. EG: I've seen those saucers with the dents in them. DK: Yes, yes. EG: And a long walk back. DK: A long walk back. But, it was, for those guys who liked speed, it was faster than the Beach Road. But, it was shorter, much shorter. The ride was 150 ft. KK: Now, you brought some yearbooks, didn't you? DK: Yeah, I did. KK: When you look through, is there anything DK: Well, like I said, there's a lot of high school stuff. Here's another picture of the seminary from the Phelps Mansion. KK: See, yeah, that's a much larger building than I expected. DK: Yeah, right in the middle, right in the middle from this angle here you're looking at the library and across the from library would be that the Chapel. They had a beautiful - that old folk's home for those priests was a beautiful facility. As you came in, it was like a rotunda. You come into the rotunda, you turn to the right, and they had all of these little alcoves, about five of them, where these older priests would be celebrating mass everyday, just by themselves and a �server. One of the seminarians would be a server and stuff. The chapels were all mosaic, just pretty. 34:50 DK: Yeah, I don't know. Like I said, all of this stuff is high school stuff. It's just, things that happen in every high school that I can tell you stories about. But, I won't. There's nothing different about it. Here's another dorm picture. EG: Okay, yeah. KK: Oh yeah, that's interesting. Just beds, a series of beds. There you are. DK: There I am, right there. [All chuckle] EG: Now, there's students in the seminary from all over Michigan and Illinois, or? DK: Well, I know there was people from Detroit, Gross Point. I know those people from Flint were there. a lot of people from Chicago because Duddley Day worked with Saint Rita's Parish which is where he lived in Saint Rita's which was Augustinian, which was six miles from my house. Maybe something like that. There's a lot of parishes in there between, so he did all that. I know that Southern Michigan had some representative. I couldn't tell you exactly where they came from, but it just depended on how well the recruiter did. KK: That's really interesting because it's, well there were schools in every other major cities. You know that the monks or whatever or brothers would run and just kind of interesting. A lot of sports involvement, obviously. DK: Yeah well, you had to do something everyday, so intermural football, intermural softball, intermural basketball. Some volleyball, not all that much. EG: You made some mention of the Vatican, too the reforms, changes. What sorts of things, I don't know how to ask this exactly, but what sorts of changes did you see in the Church or in the school? DK: This was back when the, we went from the mass where the priest was with his back to you to looking at you. The Latin went out of the mass. There were major changes in structure. From our point of view every class they had of us will I believe that they were in their second semester of freshman year. Early as the sophomore, they got a casik or a black garb with a hood on it and a black belt. When we were ready to do that, they decided they didn't wanna give us casiks. we got a green jacket. You know but these guys, I mean they sleep late and they not even get dressed, they'd just put the casik on, put the cincher on, and go down. I mean we to had do all this other stuff and those -. �KK: That's interesting. You didn't like that as much? DK: No. KK: Yeah, for the robe. DK: Yeah, exactly right. EG: Probably for teenagers as well, there's probably a certain coolness. DK: Oh yeah, yeah. Let's see some pictures of all those guys you… KK: Yes, I noticed the casicks right away, and I was wondering. Right before you brought it up, I noticed the picture. DK: Yeah. DK: I know what those were. DK: All those guys were ahead of us. KK: Did a lot of them become monks or priests? DK: I would imagine that some classes had none that made it all the way through. Some classes had one or two. I think our class wanna say that three became ordained One became an Augustinian who ran the show here. At least two others became ordained from a different organization. That's my recollection. KK: That's very interesting. DK: One of the guys that came through the the system was younger than me became a bishop. I think. I wanna say his name is Dewicki. I'm not sure. It could be that I could get him mixed up with somebody else. KK: Yeah. DK: Anyways, he's a Bishop, and the Order is very proud of that happening. EG: Oh, sure. KK: Oh, and you know, it's kind of funny, because when you hear people talking about the Phelps Mansion, you hear about it being the prison and all that, but and you hear a little about it being a monastery, but you never that it was a big school. You know what I mean? So, my �thought was, monastery means they were just in the mansion. No, no. But obviously that was quite a campus. 39:57 DK: There's probably, if you figure, maybe 120 altogether. So, it was pretty good, but one of the memories is that when Christmas time we had to put on some sort of - it was our turn to put on the play at Christmas time and we wanted to honor the Spanish nuns that did the cooking. The cloister was full of Spanish and across the way. So, we wanted them to teach us this Christmas song. You know, in Spanish and stuff, so we went and walked over there. You couldn’t see them. They had on.... a screen between. UNKNOWN: Is it, are you doing the oral history? KK: Yes, give us a little right, okay. DK: So, anyway they had the screen between us so I never did see what they looked like. It was kind of interesting they're extremely friendly and did a nice job. At least, we thought it was a nice job. [Laughs] What would we know? It was kinda fun. KK: I think that it's kind of interesting that that all existed on one campus, too. DK: For sure. EG: Yeah, fascinating, interesting too. It sounds like you were, not surprisingly, kind of set off from you know, you were there in some sort of isolation. DK: Yeah. EG: Sure. Lots of stuff going on in the late 1960s in Saugatuck and elsewhere. Music, popular culture, news. Was there a lot of discussion about that? DK: Some. EG: Were you really kind of isolated from what was going on? DK: It was interesting that especially on Saturday, they used to play music through the loud speaker on Saturday, but all the music was approved by a priest. KK: Yeah, okay. DK: It wasn't like … EG: They wouldn't play The Doors necessarily. �DK: No, not necessarily. A lot of Mamas and The Papas, you know, stuff like that. One of the guys that joined the seminary, not as a freshman, I think he joined as a junior, or something. He was a very talented guitar player and he brought influence, he brought a guitar influence into the mass. this is back when things were starting to get lax. One of the rooms was almost like a coffee shop where this guy could sit and play. And people could hang out there. For as long as they wanted to do that, but he was a he brought different music into the mass like "Tell Me Why You're Crying, My Son." I don't know if you guys remember that? KK: I'd have to hear more of it. DK: [Sings lyrics to "Tell Me Why You're Crying, My Son"] KK: Yeah, it's ringing a bell. DK: [Continues to sing] "... through your loving eyes. take my hand my son. All be done be done your when day is done." So anyways, he brought that in. He brought a lot of Bob...Bob's...not Bob Seiger.... KK: Dylan? DK: Yes. He brought Dylan's stuff into the service. It was a time of change. When I was there, they had three different people running the show. It went from very conservative, very more rigid to more lax than I was comfortable with. Just like [indistinguishable] That's just how it went. It was just part of the times part of the people that were involved. It was interesting experience. I'm really glad that I did it, you know? I had a lot of fun, a lot of fun. EG: That's wonderful. KK: We're glad you did too, because you're the only person that I've talked with that has mentioned even that experience. And again, even when a person lives here quite a while, there are things by the end that you don't know about. There really are. You guys never went to Holland, either, or did you? DK: When I was a junior we had this kid that was in my class was very creative. You know, we're trying to raise money and this is one little room inside the school in the basement that wasn't used for anything. 45:00 DK: It had the trophy case, which of course had no trophies in it. [Chuckles] EG: That's what they were praying for. [Laughs] DK: That was it! Some days, it was for the trophy case. Anyway, we decided as a class. This was the kid's idea to create a bakery. Now, here you've got a population of people. Every one of have birthdays at that table and stuff. Everybody wants to treat their table for whatever. We �opened up a bakery and our supply came from Holland. One of the priests went into Holland every day, bought you know, discounted bakery goods because we're buying in quantity. He came back in, we'd sell these things, and man we were making money. We're making a lot of money. Just selling these pies and cakes and dinner rolls. You know sweet rolls. It gets a little interesting because twice we were robbed. Alright. It becomes very interesting in terms of what forces would force force a kid to rob the Bakery. Well, you know, that's life. We're assuming it was a kid. We're assuming it wasn't a priest, but there's nothing that said it couldn't have been. KK: Right. DK: No one ever knew who did it. No one, no one pursued no one investigated. Just sort of sucked it up. So, that was an interesting thing. So, you know. KK: It's interesting what. When you sold the goods, did you have to turn the money in? What was the story there? DK: We were saving it for something. I can't remember what. I know that we, we made the money I thought it was all going to go to a charity or something, a party or whatnot. I don't, I don't remember what. You know was there no distribution between the Juniors saying that you were going to get your piece of the pie. That was not the discussion. It was all going to be used for something. It was interesting. KK: Yeah, that's interesting. If that's a question with one of our, another interviews, were there any shenanigans or trouble that people got into? Run ins with getting into detention? Those kinds of things? DK: Oh, yeah. They called it Jug, for whatever reason I don't know. But when you misbehaved you had to spend time doing stuff sitting in the room or whatever. I remember one time I came out of that locker room and in in the basement, and I just this was a Saturday morning and we just finished cleaning and we're gonna go do something that was exciting. I ran to the doors, smacked right into the biology teacher. That was a joke. [All Laugh] DK: So, that happens. So, yeah, kids would misbehave, and they would go into the Jug and stuff. That combination from a priest's perspective is very interesting who all was there, because you've got your retired folks, you got the priests that wanted to be there, you, you know, the younger ones that wanted to influence the seminarians and stuff. You got priests that were basically on their way out of the priesthood, that they were using this as a reflection period of time to see. Like you said, it's isolated, give some time to rethink things �There was one priest there. that probably got there because of sexual tendencies. Misbehavior, maybe, I don't know, but he was isolated out into that... Well... that you know of [laughs]. One that I know of, that's exactly right. He never did anything in the seminary that I know, but everybody was aware and cautious of the whole things but... Some people struggle. you know people struggle with whatever environment that they're in. KK: Okay, well, I really have no other questions, I don't think. DK: Okay. KK: Is there anything that you wanted to ask us? 50:00 DK: No, not really. KK: Okay. DK: Like I said, thank you guys for the opportunity to share. KK: We're glad to get this on tape, we really are. EG: Oh, yeah, that was fascinating. One other question that I'll ask you which is a wrap up question that I really like is. We'll be thinking about who we see in these interviews for a long time. So, imagine someone's listening to this fifty years from now or more from now. What would you like them most to know about your life? Or about the community here? DK: It was an outstanding opportunity. It was a lot of fun, you know, being… going in with the attitude that I'm going to start all over again make whatever I wanted to make out of this happen with the environment with a bunch of guys was a lot of fun. It did... I didn't have the… the same high school experiences that most kids have. So, in terms of dating all of that is a delay in all of that happening but I wouldn't have passed it up. It was a good thing. It was good while I was there, and it was good when it was time to leaves. KK: So okay. thank you very much. This concludes the interview. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Summers in Saugatuck-Douglas Collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Kutsche Office of Local History Description An account of the resource Collection contains images and documents digitized and collected through the project "Stories of Summer," supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant. The collection aims to document the twin lakeshore communities of Saugatuck and Douglas, Michigan, as they transformed through the state's bustling tourism industry and acceptance of minorities. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1910s-2010s Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Various Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a> Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Saugatuck (Mich.) Douglas (Mich.) Michigan, Lake Allegan County (Mich.) Beaches Sand dunes Outdoor recreation Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Saugatuck-Douglas History Center Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Text Language A language of the resource English Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-07_SD-KarpowiczD-20181001 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Karpowicz, Dave Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-10-01 Title A name given to the resource Dave Karpowicz (audio interview and transcript) 2018 Description An account of the resource Dave Karpowicz discusses his time at the Phelps Mansion and his experiences being a high school seminarian. He also discusses his time outside of Saugatuck-Douglas, as well as what brought him back to the region. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Kutzel, Ken (interviewer) Gollanek, Eric (interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Saugatuck (Mich.) Douglas (Mich.) Allegan County (Mich.) Theological seminaries Outdoor recreation Oral history Audio recordings Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Stories of Summer project, Kutsche Office of Local History. Grand Valley State University Relation A related resource Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c56f7154a6752162f379e6e97b393553.jpg 10ce37f4d5471291d1ab99e34b1dd2d9 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Valley State University Photographs Subject The topic of the resource Aerial photographs Universities and colleges Michigan Grand Rapids (Mich.) Allendale (Mich.) Building Facilities Dormitories Students Events 1960s 1970s 1980s 1990s 2000s Description An account of the resource People, places, and events of Grand Valley State University from its founding in 1960 as a 4-year college in western Michigan. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource News & Information Services. University Communications Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/41">News &amp; Information Services. University Photographs. (GV012-01)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-03-03 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC-NC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright - Non-Commercial Use Permitted</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource image Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1960s-2000s Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Local Subject Subject headings specific to a particular image collection 1960s Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/41">University photographs, GV012-01</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-01_UAPhotos_001062 Title A name given to the resource Dave Sharphorn 1965. Description An account of the resource Dave Sharphorn 1965. Assistant professor and coach in tennis, basketball, and cross country. Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Allendale (Mich.) Universities and colleges Sports Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC-NC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright - Non-Commercial Use Permitted</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives color photo https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/fde4b340225210131e71244032ae020a.jpg 2d47c73d660faa54fcb1ef45c91ed657 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Douglas R. Gilbert Photographs Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Gilbert, Douglas R., 1942-2023 Description An account of the resource Photographs scanned from negatives and transparencies from the Douglas R. Gilbert papers (RHC-183). Douglas R. Gilbert (b. 1942) is an American photographer from Michigan. He was born in Holland, Michigan and is the son of Russell W. and Carmen (Andree) Gilbert. Gilbert earned a B.A. in social sciences and art at Michigan State University in 1964, an M.S. in photography from the Institute of Design at Illinois Institute of Technology in 1972, and a M.S.W. from Salem State College in 1993. He is married to Barbara (McDonald) Gilbert, and has three daughters, Robyn, Rachel, and Anne. Gilbert took a serious interest in photography at the age of fourteen. In 1963 he joined the staff of Look magazine in New York as the second youngest photojournalist in the magazine's history. As a Look photographer from 1964 to 1966, he photographed folk musician Bob Dylan, the Newport Folk Festival, Simon and Garfunkel, the New York City Financial District, the children and facilities at the Manhattan School for Seriously Disturbed Children. From 1967 to 1969, Gilbert did several shoots, including that of folk singer Janis Ian for Life magazine. After moving to Chicago, Illinois in 1969 to attend the Illinois Institute of Technology, Gilbert conducted notable photo shoots of business and political figure Lenore Romney, and pursued more personal and artistic photography, focusing on urban and rural landscapes in Illinois and Michigan. He then joined the faculty of Wheaton College, where he taught from 1972 to 1982. In 1993, Gilbert graduated from Salem State College, Massachusetts, with a Masters in Social Work, and later pursued a second career as a psychotherapist. Douglas Gilbert died in June 2023. Throughout his photography career, he pursued both freelance commercial work as well as artistic work. His art photography is characterized by its classic black-and-white format, and features people, places and objects shot great attention and sensitivity. Gilbert's works are held in the permanent collections of the Art Institute of Chicago, the High Museum of Art in Atlanta, The Norton Simon Museum in Pasadena, and the Grand Valley State University Art Galleries, as well as in numerous private and institutional collections. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1960-2011 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="%E2%80%9Dhttps%3A//gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/783%E2%80%9D">Douglas R. Gilbert Papers (RHC-183)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Subject The topic of the resource Photographs Photography -- United States Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections and University Archives. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-183 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Image Type The nature or genre of the resource image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-183_E162-0021a Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Gilbert, Douglas R. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1964-07-23/1964-07-26 Title A name given to the resource Dave Van Ronk Description An account of the resource Black and white photograph of Dave Van Ronk performing at the Newport Folk Festival in July 1964. Photograph by Douglas R. Gilbert. Scanned from the negative. Subject The topic of the resource Van Ronk, Dave Folk singers Newport Folk Festival Newport (R.I.) Black-and-white photography Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/783">Douglas R. Gilbert papers (RHC-183)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1960s Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f587b976107106f4e7b3fff23bc7d9b2.jpg 76c21e35339132bc005b699805536d1e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Douglas R. Gilbert Photographs Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Gilbert, Douglas R., 1942-2023 Description An account of the resource Photographs scanned from negatives and transparencies from the Douglas R. Gilbert papers (RHC-183). Douglas R. Gilbert (b. 1942) is an American photographer from Michigan. He was born in Holland, Michigan and is the son of Russell W. and Carmen (Andree) Gilbert. Gilbert earned a B.A. in social sciences and art at Michigan State University in 1964, an M.S. in photography from the Institute of Design at Illinois Institute of Technology in 1972, and a M.S.W. from Salem State College in 1993. He is married to Barbara (McDonald) Gilbert, and has three daughters, Robyn, Rachel, and Anne. Gilbert took a serious interest in photography at the age of fourteen. In 1963 he joined the staff of Look magazine in New York as the second youngest photojournalist in the magazine's history. As a Look photographer from 1964 to 1966, he photographed folk musician Bob Dylan, the Newport Folk Festival, Simon and Garfunkel, the New York City Financial District, the children and facilities at the Manhattan School for Seriously Disturbed Children. From 1967 to 1969, Gilbert did several shoots, including that of folk singer Janis Ian for Life magazine. After moving to Chicago, Illinois in 1969 to attend the Illinois Institute of Technology, Gilbert conducted notable photo shoots of business and political figure Lenore Romney, and pursued more personal and artistic photography, focusing on urban and rural landscapes in Illinois and Michigan. He then joined the faculty of Wheaton College, where he taught from 1972 to 1982. In 1993, Gilbert graduated from Salem State College, Massachusetts, with a Masters in Social Work, and later pursued a second career as a psychotherapist. Douglas Gilbert died in June 2023. Throughout his photography career, he pursued both freelance commercial work as well as artistic work. His art photography is characterized by its classic black-and-white format, and features people, places and objects shot great attention and sensitivity. Gilbert's works are held in the permanent collections of the Art Institute of Chicago, the High Museum of Art in Atlanta, The Norton Simon Museum in Pasadena, and the Grand Valley State University Art Galleries, as well as in numerous private and institutional collections. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1960-2011 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="%E2%80%9Dhttps%3A//gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/783%E2%80%9D">Douglas R. Gilbert Papers (RHC-183)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Subject The topic of the resource Photographs Photography -- United States Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections and University Archives. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-183 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Image Type The nature or genre of the resource image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-183_E168-0012a Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Gilbert, Douglas R. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1964-07-23/1964-07-26 Title A name given to the resource Dave Van Ronk Description An account of the resource Black and white photograph of Dave Van Ronk performing at the Newport Folk Festival in July 1964. Photograph by Douglas R. Gilbert. Scanned from the negative. Subject The topic of the resource Van Ronk, Dave Folk singers Newport Folk Festival Newport (R.I.) Black-and-white photography Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/783">Douglas R. Gilbert papers (RHC-183)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1960s Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/32f1b94dd3969ddea1d56e0abc2180a3.mp4 7170f9b0aad4a327108e5eb52ec56b3f https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5e06805aa1679b4286e54465c0dedac3.pdf 018af134da437e26376356604e23d27e PDF Text Text Davelaar, Harvey Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Name of War: World War II Interviewee’s Name: Harvey Davelaar Length of Interview: (40:43) Interviewed by: James Smither Transcribed by: Maluhia Buhlman Interviewer: “We’re talking today with Harvey Davelaar of Grand Rapids, Michigan and the interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State Veterans History Project. Ok now Harvey start us off with some background on yourself and to begin with, where and when were you born?” I was born in Wyoming Township, Michigan which was adjacent to Grand Rapids, Michigan December 23 1923, and I’ve lived in the Grand Rapids area all my life andInterviewer: “What did your family do for a living when you were a kid?” (00:38) My dad was a paper hanger and a painter, he was self employed Interviewer: “And so what was life like for your family during the depression then?” Well I actually had it quite good, my sister and I, my dad worked for the government for the…what do you call it, slips my mind, anyway work progress. Interviewer: “Yeah the W.P.A yeah.” W.P.A and he was fortunate in the fact that in the Godfrey school system where we lived had gotten a grant to repaint their schools but the school board had furnished the superintendent for the job, and he was the only contractor in the district and so they came to him and asked him if �Davelaar, Harvey he would run it, which he did and he did it through several years. So actually he was employed just about all the way through the depression. So we were, you might say quite well off actually. Interviewer: “Yeah, because I guess when we think of W.P.A work it’s usually the ordinary guys working in that would be doing, and they wouldn’t make very much money.” No. Interviewer: “No but he was management essentially?” He was management and he did not work for W.P.A he worked for the school board. So I don’t know what amount of money or anything but relatively to everybody else we were living pretty good. Interviewer: “Yeah alright, now did you finish high school?” I finished high school at Godfrey High School. Interviewer: “In what year did you graduate?” (2:30) I graduated in 1941, in a class of 83 which was the largest class ever graduated to that school at that time. Interviewer: “Now after you graduated from high school what did you do?” I, at the time of course their preparation for war so one of the local automobile plants had been converted into making dive bomber wings for the British and Dutch navies, and of course they were hiring everybody they could get, so we were training a few of us about one month as riveters and metal sheet workers and so I went to work there and I worked there until I was called up to the navy.” Interviewer: “Alright, and so when- Now do you remember how you heard about Pearl �Davelaar, Harvey Harbor?” Oh yes it was my family’s tradition on Sunday we would go to church in the morning and Sunday school afterwards and then come home and we would have the big dinner of the week and after that my parents always took a nap and- But we had a radio which was not too common and they got me to listen to the radio Sunday afternoon, but you do, in our strict Dutch neighbor family that was kind of unusual. So I was sitting there listening to the radio and they broke in and announced that Pearl Harbor had been bombed, and of course like everybody else I didn’t know where Pearl Harbor was or where it was, but as afternoon goes on and more and more bulletins came through we started to figure it out. Interviewer: “Now before that happened, had you paid much attention to the news of the world with the war in Europe that kind of thing?” No, I was a typical high school kid. Interviewer: “Now did the work that you had, was there a deferment available for that?” (4:41) No, they tried to get us deferred but not allowed. I must say that they kept us as long as they could, they stalled off, but I did not want to get into the Army. Some of the fellas that I knew had been drafted, and had gone to basic training and came home for a short time afterwards and they said “Oh you don’t want to be in the Army” and I said “No I don’t want that” and besides I’m partial to the Navy anyway I always have been, and so I talked to my folks and I said “I’d like to enlist in the Navy.” of course I had to have their permission. I was only 17 years old and Interviewer: “Now you would’ve been, if you’re born in 20-” 1923 and this was in the summer of 1941, about 42. Interviewer: “42 you’re gonna be, you’re 18 then.” �Davelaar, Harvey Yep. Interviewer: “But anyway, but you still wanted their support regardless. Did they actually have to sign papers for you?” Oh yeah they had too, so anyway I went to- Another fellow classmate and I went to the Navy recruiters and enlisted and with permission of our parents. Interviewer: “Right, okay so then where do you go for your boot camp?” Well it was strange because so many of us didn’t want to deal with the Army, we overwhelmed the Navy recruitment programs. So we would go to Detroit and get a physical and when we passed our physical we would sign the date in the future when we would actually be called up and that happened. We enrolled in either July or August of that summer and it was not until the weekend after Thanksgiving that I was actually called up, and went to Detroit for a physical and from there we went to Great Lakes for basic training. Interviewer: “So where is Great Lakes?” (7:04) Great Lakes is north of Chicago, between Chicago and Milwaukee. Interviewer: “Alright, yeah very far northern end of Illinois there along the lake.” Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, what did the training there consist of ?” Oh I guess the basic stuff, you learned what the Navy’s all about, the rudiment knots and so on, how to take orders and obey them, and I remember it was a bitter cold winter and we would march from class to class. Of course we took physical fitness and all that sort of thing but I guess �Davelaar, Harvey that’s mostly it. We slept in hammocks, we were still in the old barracks, and had to get used to that, not roll out during the night, but it went quite well. I rather enjoyed it, the discipline and so on kind of fit me. Interviewer: “Okay, well if you had a fairly strict family in your background anyway, following orders was normal.” Yeah, it was. Interviewer: “Alright, were there some other people who were training with you who were having some trouble?” Oh no, there was a whole company. I forget, a little over a hundred men in each class, we were called and we did all the paperwork, we were interviewed and so on. I was- I forget how many weeks, either 12 or 15 weeks of training, and during the interview process they of course knew that I had worked with aviation metal work. So when they assigned us where we were going to go, I was assigned to a Navy aviation metalsmith which took place in Navy Pier in Chicago. Navy Pier in Chicago at that time was completely made over into a school, with barracks and the whole thing were on a pier, and that’s where everybody from out Great Lakes area went for aviation training. Radios with engine hydraulics, whatever you were qualified for you were trained there and then that lasted until about June of ‘43. Interviewer: “Alright now while you’re there, particularly while you’re at Navy Pier, would you be able to get liberty? I mean, could you go into Chicago?” (9:46) Oh yes, every weekend we were, from Saturday noon until midnight Sunday we were given freedom, and Chicago was a wonderful place to go to because a service person could not pay for anything. Everything was free, all sports, movies, entertainment. All you had to do was go to the U.S.O and ask for a ticket and you would get one and that was it, and of course the museum and the other things there. So it was a wonderful place to be, to go to school. �Davelaar, Harvey Interviewer: “Alright, now what specifically did your training consist of? What were you physically learning to do?” Well I remember one was to read blueprints, and number two was we made different things that were learned, taught us how to bend metal, how to mark it, and then how to rivet it together, and then we also learned how to weld steel parts, and that was pretty much it. Interviewer: “Did you work mostly with steel or did you have aluminum?” All aluminum, the only steel I remember was in the class when we had to learn them, but yeah welding which we never used again, but anyway it was part of the basic training of course. Interviewer: “Alright, so now once you complete that training program what do they do with you?” (11:28) Well then we- the section on the pier was called outgoing unit O.G and we stayed there until we were assigned to a place. Which for me was Naval air station Quonset Point, Rhode Island, and arrived there- Six of us from our class were assigned there, the Navy transferred you that way individually. In our case it was six of us together and we were responsible to get ourselves there by X date and time. So we did that successfully. Interviewer: “Okay, did you go by train or?” Went by train, went by train from Chicago to Boston, Boston to Providence, where the Navy had a bus waiting for us and they took us down to the Naval air station in Quonset Point was down there against the bay, close to the ocean. Interviewer: “Alright, and then what was your job once you got there?” I was assigned to what was called the assembly and repair hanger, where I did just what the title said, they assembled aircraft that were shipped there and repaired those that were damaged, and �Davelaar, Harvey so that was mostly what we did, but then I wound up with a group that was brand new. Was installing rocket launchers underneath the wings of fighter planes and torpedo bombers, and that became my number one task while I was there. Interviewer: “Alright, now was there a larger command that you were part of, naval air transport, something like that?” No IInterviewer: “Or was that later?” That comes later. Interviewer: “So here you were just at the naval air station, so now was Quonset Point, was that a place that was used as a base for anti-submarine patrol?” (13:33) That was a permanent naval air station, all partnered structures as opposed to temporary. Yeah what we did that was the purpose of the rockets underneath the planes that was anti-submarine patrol, and they had large seaplanes and all the other stuff that goes with it, but our planes were beyond what we called many aircraft carriers, Small ships that were converted into aircraft carriers which did convoy duty to the- Through a [unintelligible] of course, but the object of the rockets was a group of planes who would go out, and one of them was equipped with a search light, a huge thing for our day, that took the places of bomb bays and tried to catch a German submarine that had surface to recharge their batteries, and once they saw water, found one, then the other planes equipped with a rocket would attack it, and hopefully do some damage and force to go home or sink it maybe. Well I think that was an outside chance but they would damage it anyway. Interviewer: “Okay, so how long were you at Quonset Point?” Was there about a year. �Davelaar, Harvey Interviewer: “Okay, and during that time I mean did you mostly just know other mechanics or did you get to talk to the pilot or aircrew?” No, nothing to do with the aircrew or any of the actual flying. It was just like working in a big factory. Interviewer: “And did you ever hear anything about what happened out there on the ocean, either with convoys or submarines?” No more than civilians did. Interviewer: “Okay, so you’re just in your own world. Alright, now did you spend most of your time just on the base or would you go into the smaller towns or Providence?” I did there because as a permanent base that had everything. Had, what’s it called, ship service was just like a store, and they had a restaurant that you could go to if you didn’t like the Navy furnished meals. In a sense we were isolated but on the weekend there would be buses going into Providence, but I was content just to stay on the base. Interviewer: “Alright, now were you communicating with people back home very often?” (16:06) By letter, that’s the only way. When we tried to call home on the long distance telephone we’d have to sign up, and so usually what we did, both the Atlantic and Pacific coast you would got to the AT&T place and you would sign up for a certain time, and they more or less guaranteed that your call would go through at that time, and that’s the only direct communication I had with my parents. Interviewer: “Alright, now were you disappointed or relieved that you weren’t being sent overseas?” �Davelaar, Harvey No, I was very happy because as a boy I was kind of an airplane nut. I used to make models and fly them and so on so I was in an area where I- Kind of a dreamland or something, what I really like to do work on actual airplanes, we’re actually contributing to the war. Interviewer: “Right, so that works- Did you ever get a chance to go up in any of the aircraft?” No. Interviewer: “We’re not giving out seaplane rides or anything.” No they weren’t giving out any, the one thing, which really was on the west coast, if you had a furlough home for any length of time there was the ability to go to a certain office on the edge of air station, and ask if there were transport flights going in your direction, and this is all by chance as I understood it, “Yes there is one going to Chicago or there is one going to Kansas City or St. Louis, we can fly you that far.” and then you’ll add the weight and say “Something close to Grand Rapids?” Chicago, Detroit or something, that I might get home from there, but that whole process could take a day or two sometimes to get to where you wanted to go so I never tried it. Interviewer: “Alright, now while you were out there in Rhode Island were you following the course of the news very carefully, or were you just doing your job?” (18:36) No, just doing my job. Interviewer: “Okay, so how is it then that you wound up in California?” Well as the submarine warfare was coming to an end, pretty well had the Atlantic to ourselves they started shipping everybody. Not to the west coast of course, and eventually it’s going to be the preparation to fight in the Pacific and end the war over there. So we once again went through the O.G unit, the outgoing unit, and barracks, and then we waited to be transferred wherever. We �Davelaar, Harvey didn’t know where, we had sealed orders but there was a chief petty officer that was in charge of us and he had the orders with- And he was not to tell us of course. So we were in the outgoing unit and I can remember very vividly, one morning we woke up after a couple weeks there, and there was a string of passenger cars in the sighting and he said “Yep, you’re shipping out, you’re on this train.” So we took that train all the way to Oakland California Interviewer: “Okay, how long did that take?” About four day. Interviewer: “Alright, did you have to stop much and let other trains go by?” Well supposedly we had priority, but once in a while from Chicago onto Oakland the only time we would pull off is when the streamliner, one of the fast passenger trains, was coming the other way. We would put on siding until it went past and then we would go again. Interviewer: “Right, and how did they feed you while you were on the train?” (20:37) Oh very good, we were in the dining car, each one of our passenger cars was assigned a time and you would go in and they would feed you. So we had it pretty good, not luxuriously but we had hot meals let’s put it that way. Interviewer: “Alright, and now once you get to Oakland then what happens?” Got to Oakland and there again you’re in the outgoing unit, and sat there for about two weeks wondering where we’re gonna go, and I was hoping to get on an aircraft carrier, that was my dream, but I didn’t and my name was called and I was given a time to meet. So I was put on a bus, and had no idea where I was going of course and we wound up on Treasure Island in San Francisco Bay and said “Here’s where you’re gonna be stationed.” Well Treasure Island in those days was a great big outgoing unit, where people getting off ships were kept for a while, and people going on to the ship would get their assignments, but on that island was a huge aircraft �Davelaar, Harvey repairs facilities for Pan American Airways, we heard their seaplanes which were flying the Pacific at that time as passenger planes, the Navy took it over and made an overhaul base out of it and so we were assigned there, and once again we had very nice duty. We were kind of an independent unit from everything else going out on Treasure Island, though we ate at their dining halls and went to their movies and everything. We had all the privileges of the island, but otherwise we were pretty well restricted to our little area. Interviewer: “Alright and now what kinds of aircraft did you work on there?” Well yeah, a PBY2 which was a four engine seaplane which was designed and put into service in 1937 and it was already obsolete but it was a huge aircraft, I got pictures of it and so they decided that maybe it was still trying to get supplies off the Pacific every which way they could. So they took these aircrafts and took all the armaments off it, sealed up the bomb bays and put flat decks inside of them, and used them for cargo carriers. That’s how we got the naval air transport service, that’s the [unintelligible] and so our, or my responsibility as a metalsmith was to keep the metal parts of the aircraft repaired and functional and sometimes to put different brackets and so on when they modernized the radio equipment or navigating equipment. So anything to do with metal we were responsible for. Interviewer: “Okay, now were you just- Would these planes get wear and tear from extensive use or?” (24:14) Well yeah, the big problem with them was they were not- They were strictly a seaplane they had no wheels, like some others that had both wheels and floatation these were strictly seaplanes and so they landed and took off from water. Well our biggest amount of work is they would hit debris in the water and damage the hull and spring leaks and so forth, and that’s why we were called over all these. When they were damaged too much they would be brought over to us, and brought up on land and then we would recondition them and did this exactly like the word overhaul means. Put new engines on them and new radio equipment or bring them right up to date you might say. �Davelaar, Harvey Interviewer: “Alright, now did you have much communication at all with the other naval personnel or you just, you sat at your own table?” No, like I said we were an isolated group in the old Pan American facilities. Interviewer: “Okay, now did you go into the city of San Francisco?” Oh yes, Oakland and San Francisco were the places to go over the weekend, and our set up was you could do that two times a month, one time a month you would get what’s called a short leave to go into town, or you could go in Saturday and stay overnight Sunday, and as long as you were back and ready to work on Monday morning at seven o’clock, you had that privilege and what we called once a month was the long one you would go up and have both Friday and Saturday night to go in San Francisco, and like Chicago is the most wonderful place because everything was free, but in San Francisco I remember they had a multi story building of the U.S.O, that is United Service Organization, and the upper floors were- Had cots you could sleep overnight so that was the reason that like an overnight stay just to get off the base for a while. Interviewer: “And did they have, did the U.S.O provide entertainment, either on the base or in the town or did you just get tickets to go to things?” (27:00) No, now I don’t remember going to anything specific at the U.S.O, only at the same thing as in Chicago. I remember seeing my first hockey game, I saw a football game at the University of California in Berkeley, and the Seals hockey team. I didn’t know they had a baseball team at that time, and maybe they didn’t. Interviewer: “Not major league there yet, Giants were still in New York.” No that was way off, [unintelligible] yet. Interviewer: “Okay, now were there- During the time you were in whether Rhode Island or in California, were there particular news events or developments in the war that did get �Davelaar, Harvey your attention? Do you remember when Roosevelt died for instance?” Yeah, I remember when Roosevelt died. I remember we kind of, by that time, we were older and more curious about the war in Europe, and we knew that the war was ending down by just the activities on that base and transfer of people we knew that the Pacific was being built up, and we kind of figured that out ourselves, but we weren’t told it was happening. Interviewer: “Okay, and do you remember hearing about the atomic bomb?” Yeah, I remember hearing about that. That’s when I was waiting to be discharged out there, that’s when that occurred. Interviewer: “Okay so in August of ‘45?” I’m sorry? Interviewer: “August of ‘45 is when-” (28:46) Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay because I thought you weren’t discharged until ‘46.” I was, that’s true, the discharge system was based on points, maybe you’ve heard of that, and it was based on how many days you were in combat and all that sort of thing. Well having been stationed in the United States all my career I was real low on points, so I was one of the last ones to be discharged. Interviewer: “But when they dropped the bomb you were already starting to count your points?” Yeah. �Davelaar, Harvey Interviewer: “You were waiting for your chance, okay. Now when they announced the bomb did you have any idea what that meant really?” No, we just knew that it was something very powerful and the cause of the war’s end. Interviewer: “Because the Japanese surrender comes not very long after that.” Yeah, August 14th or 15th. Interviewer: “Alright, now once that happens does life on the base change at all once the war’s over?” (29:48) Well yeah because then the next thing was the highest point people were being sent home, so in every unit you are losing people. Like in our case we had, people had served on carriers and so or transferred one base to us and so they went first. The rest as your numbers came up you would be sent home so, but also on the atomic bomb you mentioned that they were recruiting people who would be willing to sign on for, I forget, a period of six or eight months extend their- Even though they were eligible for discharge but if they wanted to extend it and work on my set up for the test that were coming up. You could sign up for that for a certain period, six, eight months, or a year. I tried to sign up for that but they were giving aviation medals and I didn’t have anything to do with that kind of training so I didn’t get it. Interviewer: “Okay, did they make any effort to encourage you to reenlist or were they mostly just getting rid of people?” Mostly getting rid of people, in my case anyway. I remember the officer that was in charge of our group that went to a series of classes and so one of his first remarks was “I feel like I’m talking in vain because I’m sure none of you want to reenlist but if you do this is your option and what will happen.” Such as you’ll be automatically promoted one rank and of course you’d get more pay and so on and more leave time to go home and that sort of thing, but no one did �Davelaar, Harvey Interviewer: “Okay, now during the time while you were in, did you ever get a leave to go home?” I did because I accumulated leaves, I was never able to get a leave because of the activity and necessity of it, we didn’t get leaves but in August then they started opening it up, and that too was based on how long since you’ve been home, and of course I hadn’t been home since I left. So I applied and I was given one month leave, so at the time you had to go down to the station, railroad station, and you signed up for a train to take you home and on a given date and time and so on. So I went home for 30 days, I took my whole 30 days and went home in August. That’s some of what I don’t know about what really happened on the base and it happened the fifth on the calendar in August. Interviewer: “Okay and then- But then you have to go back to the base?” Oh yeah. Interviewer: “Alright and then when did they finally discharge you?” (33:19) That was a little different process too because these planes that we were serving were so obsolete and probably so beat up, that they immediately disbanded our squadron, and so I was transferred to Moffett Field, which is south of San Francisco and San Jose. Which is a big, primarily it’s a testing air station for new aircraft techniques and different things, and they naval air transport squadron but they’re all land based planes, four engine what would have been passenger planes, or seats taken out and flight decks put in and they used to transport; however they were kept as transport planes with seats but we maintained those, and then I was picked to be sent to gas tank school, because those planes didn’t suffer very much damage as far as the metal was concerned. So I was trained how to repair the gas tanks which were all inside the wings and that’s how I finished out my career in the Navy. Interviewer: “Okay, and so when do you get out?” �Davelaar, Harvey I got out March 2nd of ‘46. Interviewer: “Alright, and after you got out what did you do?” Well first thing I did is decided to just loaf around- Well a little different, I had an aunt and uncle that live in San Diego and it was March of course and I thought I didn’t want to go back to Michigan and bad weather and also I wrote my aunt and uncle, knowing the time I was going to be discharge, if I could stay with them for two weeks, and they said “Sure come on down.” I had two cousins there that weren’t home and so I did that and then I came home and had to make a decision. My training in the Navy qualified me to become a metal apprentice and- Or not and so seeing my dad starting back in his one man business, I took the easy way really to be honest and said “Okay let’s work together.” So I did and from there on of course construction and everything started building after World War II. So I met my sweetheart to be in April that year and eventually we married in ‘48. From 1950 my dad and I decided to form a partnership and create our own business, which we did, and we did that until my dad retired, and then after that I had it by myself. Interviewer: “Alright and was this all kinds of construction or still the painting and papering?” (36:54) This was all painting and papering, my dad worked strictly residential when he was alone, and we expanded into commercial construction. We did schools, we did churches, and we did new home construction, which like I said was just booming. If you had the manpower and time and could do it we were hired. I don’t ever remember bidding on a job and everything, it was a call and said “You have time, can you do such and such in the future?” or “Will you save time?” So it was really a great time to be in business. Interviewer: “Alright, now when you think back to the time that you spent in the Navy, what do you think you learned from that or took out of it?” �Davelaar, Harvey Well number one was discipline of course, how to discipline yourself, how to take care of yourself physically because otherwise you depended on your parents but how to budget time and do a good job, knowing that one way or another you’re judged by what quality of the work that you do. So I think those are the biggest things I took out, a lot of quote unquote good habits which stayed with me the rest of my life. Interviewer: “Okay and then just to think back to your time in the Navy are there other things that stand out in your memory about that, that you haven’t brought into the story yet?” (38:55) You mean unusual things? Interviewer: “Yeah.” Well back to Quonset Point, the unusual thing was putting these rocket brackets on knowing that that was something brand new, and so that kind of gave me a thrill I’d say, that I was on the forefront of something happening. Interviewer: “Do you know what kind of aircraft you were putting them on? I was putting them on, it was called a F4F fighter plane and a TBM, which is a torpedo bomber, and the f4f actually was a fighter that was- The Navy entered the war with but was soon obsolete, it was small and could land on small carriers and what we call, I should say a jeep carrier and so they were, of course they could build the carriers quickly and they were equipped with- And the TBM could land on a small area so they were the ones that were sent out on a convoy. You know we didn’t see these big aircraft carriers like the enterprise and some others that were actually fighting aircraft. Interviewer: “Alright so these were escort carriers and they could provide air protection for a convoy in the middle of the Atlantic, so they had a job to do.” �Davelaar, Harvey Number one of course, go after the submarines, German submarines. Interviewer: “Alright, well you’ve got kind of an unusual career so I’d just like to thank you for taking the time to share the story today.” You’re welcome. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DavelaarH2107V Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Davelaar, Harvey Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-03 Title A name given to the resource Davelaar, Harvey (Interview transcript and video), 2017 Description An account of the resource Harvey Davelaar was born in Wyoming Township, Michigan, on December 23, 1923. After graduating high school in June 1941, he worked in a war factory until he enlisted in the Navy in summer 1942. He reported for basic training at Great Lakes Naval Station, Illinois, in November 1942. He went to Naval Aviation Metalsmith School at Navy Pier in downtown Chicago and trained there until June 1943. From there, he went to Naval Air Station Quonset Point, Rhode Island, where he outfitted fighter planes and torpedo bombers with rocket racks to attack U-Boats as part of convoy escort. When the Battle of the Atlantic effectively came to an end he was sent to Naval Station Treasure Island, California, where he maintained seaplanes used for the transportation of troops and material. He was at Treasure Island until after the war’s end, then went to Moffett Field, California, as his final duty station. He was discharged on March 2, 1946. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States—History, Military Veterans Video recordings Other veterans & civilians—Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8bc5a7e8fe697a1eee32fa0e8758536e.jpg a6fc8ce043e55a4e76bd51f88df6b00e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Robert H. Merrill photographs Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Merrill, Robert H., 1881-1955 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1909/1950 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Robert H. Merrill papers (RHC-222) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-222 Description An account of the resource Photographs, negatives, and lantern slides digitized from the papers of engineer and archaeologist Robert H. Merrill. A Grand Rapids native, Merrill held an accomplished career as a civil engineer. He founded the company Spooner & Merrill, which held offices in Grand Rapids and Chicago. From 1919-1921, Merrill lived in China, working as Assistant Principal Engineer on a reconstruction of the Grand Canal - the oldest and longest canal system in the world. Merrill became fascinated by archaeology, and among other projects, he traveled to the Uxmal Pyramids in Yucatan, Mexico, with a research expedition from Tulane University. Merrill's photo collection includes images of his travels and projects, friends and family. Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Merrill_ProcessFilm_P_361 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1946-06-09 Title A name given to the resource David and Mary at Berkley Description An account of the resource Black and white photograph of a boy and a girl, David and Mary Burkhead, sitting on chairs on grass next to a house. Subject The topic of the resource Children Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Robert H. Merrill papers (RHC-222) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Merrill, Robert H., 1881-1955 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/49c440191d2981325947ce7458dc4173.jpg 9d662cbf8f8497c32aa9c9330494257f Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Robert H. Merrill photographs Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Merrill, Robert H., 1881-1955 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1909/1950 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Robert H. Merrill papers (RHC-222) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-222 Description An account of the resource Photographs, negatives, and lantern slides digitized from the papers of engineer and archaeologist Robert H. Merrill. A Grand Rapids native, Merrill held an accomplished career as a civil engineer. He founded the company Spooner & Merrill, which held offices in Grand Rapids and Chicago. From 1919-1921, Merrill lived in China, working as Assistant Principal Engineer on a reconstruction of the Grand Canal - the oldest and longest canal system in the world. Merrill became fascinated by archaeology, and among other projects, he traveled to the Uxmal Pyramids in Yucatan, Mexico, with a research expedition from Tulane University. Merrill's photo collection includes images of his travels and projects, friends and family. Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Merrill_ProcessFilm_P_362 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1946-06-09 Title A name given to the resource David and Mary at Berkley Description An account of the resource Black and white photograph of a boy and a girl, David and Mary Burkhead, sitting on chairs on grass next to a house. Subject The topic of the resource Children Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Robert H. Merrill papers (RHC-222) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Merrill, Robert H., 1881-1955 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2650c37955bf1c22297c492bbf534cc6.jpg 1c14133f12ce247e74ac1c9141b03f9b Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Valley State University Photographs Subject The topic of the resource Aerial photographs Universities and colleges Michigan Grand Rapids (Mich.) Allendale (Mich.) Building Facilities Dormitories Students Events 1960s 1970s 1980s 1990s 2000s Description An account of the resource People, places, and events of Grand Valley State University from its founding in 1960 as a 4-year college in western Michigan. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource News & Information Services. University Communications Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/41">News &amp; Information Services. University Photographs. (GV012-01)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-03-03 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC-NC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright - Non-Commercial Use Permitted</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource image Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1960s-2000s Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Local Subject Subject headings specific to a particular image collection 1970s Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/41">University photographs, GV012-01</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-01_UAPhotos_001113 Title A name given to the resource David Bernstein, professor of psychology Description An account of the resource David Bernstein, professor of psychology, in his office. Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Allendale (Mich.) Universities and colleges Faculty Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC-NC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright - Non-Commercial Use Permitted</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives black and white photo https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c9de4f610a6b7e60a2ce1b2f9e6a1153.jpg ed3b97d1e6ee73c51d092dad60c221f3 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Robert H. Merrill photographs Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Merrill, Robert H., 1881-1955 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1909/1950 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Robert H. Merrill papers (RHC-222) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-222 Description An account of the resource Photographs, negatives, and lantern slides digitized from the papers of engineer and archaeologist Robert H. Merrill. A Grand Rapids native, Merrill held an accomplished career as a civil engineer. He founded the company Spooner & Merrill, which held offices in Grand Rapids and Chicago. From 1919-1921, Merrill lived in China, working as Assistant Principal Engineer on a reconstruction of the Grand Canal - the oldest and longest canal system in the world. Merrill became fascinated by archaeology, and among other projects, he traveled to the Uxmal Pyramids in Yucatan, Mexico, with a research expedition from Tulane University. Merrill's photo collection includes images of his travels and projects, friends and family. Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Merrill_FilmPacks_A_38_001 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1942-05-10 Title A name given to the resource David Burkhead Description An account of the resource Black and white photograph of a baby, David Burkhead, in a high chair. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Robert H. Merrill papers (RHC-222) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Merrill, Robert H., 1881-1955 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8dc5c9c47afe05980b52ed853a23b9f8.jpg 2a3832e34e9c12270f2de29bfd18e965 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Robert H. Merrill photographs Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Merrill, Robert H., 1881-1955 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1909/1950 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Robert H. Merrill papers (RHC-222) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-222 Description An account of the resource Photographs, negatives, and lantern slides digitized from the papers of engineer and archaeologist Robert H. Merrill. A Grand Rapids native, Merrill held an accomplished career as a civil engineer. He founded the company Spooner & Merrill, which held offices in Grand Rapids and Chicago. From 1919-1921, Merrill lived in China, working as Assistant Principal Engineer on a reconstruction of the Grand Canal - the oldest and longest canal system in the world. Merrill became fascinated by archaeology, and among other projects, he traveled to the Uxmal Pyramids in Yucatan, Mexico, with a research expedition from Tulane University. Merrill's photo collection includes images of his travels and projects, friends and family. Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Merrill_ProcessFilm_P_363 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1946-06-09 Title A name given to the resource David Burkhead Description An account of the resource Black and white photograph of a boy, David Burkhead, sitting on a chair on grass next to a house. His eyes are closed. Subject The topic of the resource Children Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Robert H. Merrill papers (RHC-222) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Merrill, Robert H., 1881-1955 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4bcba925e4ed589422cba608a355adc3.jpg 99f1da81ad17bbc2b0cb667442f7ab76 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Douglas R. Gilbert Photographs Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Gilbert, Douglas R., 1942-2023 Description An account of the resource Photographs scanned from negatives and transparencies from the Douglas R. Gilbert papers (RHC-183). Douglas R. Gilbert (b. 1942) is an American photographer from Michigan. He was born in Holland, Michigan and is the son of Russell W. and Carmen (Andree) Gilbert. Gilbert earned a B.A. in social sciences and art at Michigan State University in 1964, an M.S. in photography from the Institute of Design at Illinois Institute of Technology in 1972, and a M.S.W. from Salem State College in 1993. He is married to Barbara (McDonald) Gilbert, and has three daughters, Robyn, Rachel, and Anne. Gilbert took a serious interest in photography at the age of fourteen. In 1963 he joined the staff of Look magazine in New York as the second youngest photojournalist in the magazine's history. As a Look photographer from 1964 to 1966, he photographed folk musician Bob Dylan, the Newport Folk Festival, Simon and Garfunkel, the New York City Financial District, the children and facilities at the Manhattan School for Seriously Disturbed Children. From 1967 to 1969, Gilbert did several shoots, including that of folk singer Janis Ian for Life magazine. After moving to Chicago, Illinois in 1969 to attend the Illinois Institute of Technology, Gilbert conducted notable photo shoots of business and political figure Lenore Romney, and pursued more personal and artistic photography, focusing on urban and rural landscapes in Illinois and Michigan. He then joined the faculty of Wheaton College, where he taught from 1972 to 1982. In 1993, Gilbert graduated from Salem State College, Massachusetts, with a Masters in Social Work, and later pursued a second career as a psychotherapist. Douglas Gilbert died in June 2023. Throughout his photography career, he pursued both freelance commercial work as well as artistic work. His art photography is characterized by its classic black-and-white format, and features people, places and objects shot great attention and sensitivity. Gilbert's works are held in the permanent collections of the Art Institute of Chicago, the High Museum of Art in Atlanta, The Norton Simon Museum in Pasadena, and the Grand Valley State University Art Galleries, as well as in numerous private and institutional collections. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1960-2011 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="%E2%80%9Dhttps%3A//gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/783%E2%80%9D">Douglas R. Gilbert Papers (RHC-183)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Subject The topic of the resource Photographs Photography -- United States Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections and University Archives. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-183 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Image Type The nature or genre of the resource image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-183_M135-0041a Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Gilbert, Douglas R. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1972-06/1972-08 Title A name given to the resource David Gresham, C.S. Lewis's stepson Description An account of the resource Black and white photograph featuring an outdoor portrait of David Gresham, one of C.S. Lewis's stepsons, in Oxford, England. Scanned from the negative. Subject The topic of the resource Gresham, David Lindsay, 1944-2014 Oxford (England) Black-and-white photography Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/783">Douglas R. Gilbert papers (RHC-183)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1970s Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1c03292418da341a4773c57f71c1d055.jpg ce35c280f62820c9d44d9d68055b6927 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Decorated Publishers' Bindings Subject The topic of the resource Book covers Covers (Illustration) Graphic arts Publishers and publishing Pictorial bindings Description An account of the resource From the early 1870s to roughly 1930, many publishers issued their commercial book covers with a remarkable variety of graphic designs and illustrations. This sixty-year period saw many artists and designers contributing to this art form. While some can be identified from their style or initials, others remain unknown. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Seidman Rare Books Collection Michigan Novels Collection Regional Historical Collection Lincoln and the Civil War Collection Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-08-30 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>, <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-01 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Source Seidman Rare Books. PS3159.W12 D38 1898 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-01_Bindings0303 Title A name given to the resource David Harum: A Story of American Life Description An account of the resource Binding of David Harum: A Story of American Life, by Edward Noyes Westcott, published by De Erven Loosjes, 1899. Subject The topic of the resource Book covers Covers (Illustration) Graphic arts Publishers and publishing Pictorial bindings Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1899 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/fb36423bafb608528ed87b3edc049789.pdf 8bb8102fad436d3dee31d287bf8e56c1 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: David Hernández Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 3/29/2012 Biography and Description David Hernández was born in Cidra, Puerto Rico and arrived in Chicago in 1955. He has volunteered with the Young Lords in many activities and events. But his primary community work has been with La Gente, an organization he founded that worked with Latinos and the poor of Lakeview. Originally the group was called the Latin Eagles Organization because he was working the Commission of Youth Welfare for the City of Chicago and the Latin Eagles were a serious presence in the neighborhood where he was assigned. Like the Young Lords, La Gente also had a Breakfast for Children Program. The group stood with the Young Lords for affordable housing and against Mayor Richard J. Daley’s displacement of Puerto Ricans from the lakefront and near downtown areas of the city. Mr. Hernández has been called the unofficial, “Poet Laureate of Chicago.” He blends folk, jazz, and Afro – Latin music that chronicles the pedestrian walking down Chicago’s streets. One of his famous poems is called “La Armitage” and features the neighborhood of Lincoln Park and several prominent Young Lords. For several years he ran El Taller, a community based workshop. He also founded Street Sounds in 1971. Mr. Hernández performed at Harold Washington’s mayoral inauguration in 1977 and at his funeral. He also performed in Humboldt Park for the Young Lords and at their 40th Anniversary in 2008. Mr. Hernández has taught poetry workshops for the Uptown Community Clinic, the Chicago Public Schools, and community arts programs like Gallery Humboldt Park. His first books of poetry, Despertando/Waking Up and Rooftop �Piper were published in 1971. He followed with Collected Words for Dirty Shelf (1973), Satin City Lullaby (1989), and Elvis is Dead but at Least He Isn’t Gaining Any Weight (1995), and The Urban Poems (2004). Mr. Hernández also starred in a movie, “David Hernandez and Street Sounds” and recorded an album by the same name. His poem, “Immigrants/Liquid Thoughts” was included on the audio anthology, “A Snake in the Heart: Poems and Music by Chicago Spoken Word Performers” (1994). Today, David Hernández lives in Wicker Park, continues to be active in the community, and to collaborate with the Young Lords. �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: Okay, so if you can give me your name, and where you were born, and your date of birth, and that -- (inaudible). (laughter) DAVID HERNÁNDEZ: Yeah, my name is David Hernández, and I was born on May 1, 1946 that means that I’m 65 years old. I came to Chicago from Puerto Rico, a little town called Cidra, back in 1955. And my parents came over here because there were a lot of job offers at that time. A lot of these little factories in Chicago, a lot of jobs for Puerto Ricans, and specifically they wanted Puerto Ricans over here. So my whole family, uncles, and aunts, and all of that, they all worked in these small factories. So that was back in 1955, and I was nine years old when I came here. JJ: Now, do you remember what part of the city you came from at the time [00:01:00] or to first? DH: That I came to? Yeah, I lived on Armitage Street. Yeah, Clark and Armitage at that time. And then we moved a little further -- JJ: Do you remember what street or anything like that? DH: Well, it’s Clark and Armitage. There’s a big high rise building right there now. And that was right next to the park, Lincoln Park. And so a lot of Puerto Ricans lived in that whole area right there. And what they call Old Town, at that time, I lived on Clark and Wisconsin which was what they call Old Town right now. So we were all over the place around there, the Old Town area and the Lincoln Park area. 1 �JJ: So you’re saying you remember at nine years old -- you should remember some of it. DH: Oh, yeah. JJ: What was it like at that time? I mean what type of -- DH: [00:02:00] It was a working, poor-class neighborhood. The apartment that I lived in, I lived in what’s known a cold water flat at first. It was in the basement. (laughter) My family was -- there were four -- JJ: Why did they call it cold water flat in our neighborhood? Why did they call it that? DH: ’Cause there was no heated water, (laughter) so they called it cold water flat. It was cheap. And we had to take baths by heating up water, so I remember that. And it was really small. What was going on is that a lot of these buildings around there were being subdivided, and they were cramming as many Puerto Rican families as they could in these places. Really small. Tiny. JJ: [00:03:00] So when they’re subdivided, what do you mean? DH: At one time, these apartments used to be really big. Subdivided is that they would put a wall in the middle somewhere and fix it up so that there were two entrances. And then where there used to be one family, now they could fit two families, sometimes three families. So these were cramped, small places that we lived in at the very beginning. And so, you know, it was -- JJ: Was your family big, like how many? DH: I have three brothers and one sister, so there were six of us living in an area that was maybe what they call a studio apartment today. All of us lived there. We used to sleep in the same -- you know, two to a bed. The little one used to sleep 2 �on a mattress on the floor every night. [00:04:00] So this was the kind of thing that was going -- that we lived on. My uncles and aunts were in the same situation. Everybody around there lived in small places. They were roachinfested, a lot of rats and all of that. The landlords never came around, they just primarily left us. They didn’t fix anything. Everything had to be fixed by us or else it wouldn’t get done. At that point, we didn’t know, but everything was painted with that lead paint. So later on, as kids were being born and all that, some of them were mentally -- they were retarded, basically, because of those paint chips, and the fumes, and everything that was going on -- the dust that was coming in. So it was way different than what it is now, [00:05:00] that whole area. A lot of old buildings, red brick buildings, and no stores hardly around there. It was just one big long street with a lot of buildings. That’s what I remember. The hallways were always dark. And that’s how my parents lived for a long time. I always wondered why my parents were always tired, and part of the reason was that they would stay up night so they could flick the cockroaches off our faces as we were sleeping. They had to go to work, and then at night they have to be night guards against the cucarachas. (laughter) JJ: A lot of roaches. DH: Yeah, a lot. But we were a community, and a lot of families really stuck together -- my aunts, and my uncles, [00:06:00] and all of that. And so there was a lightness to it. I mean we had these big parties and -- JJ: So were other Puerto Rican families bringing their families, too? So your family came with a lot of other aunts, and uncles, and all that? 3 �DH: Right. Right. JJ: And it was also happening in that area? DH: Yeah. JJ: ’Cause you said (inaudible) -- DH: My grandmother was the first who came, and she lived on Halsted and Armitage in that big corner building which is still there. And you can’t touch it today. I don’t know, it’s a condo thing. But that’s where they used to live because that place was really full of our people. My grandmother was the first one to come. She came, I think, in ’48. Yeah, 1948. She lived there for a long time. JJ: Why did she come from Puerto Rico? DH: Better life. The small factories weren’t just cutting sheet metal and all that, they also had a lot sewing factories, and so she was a [00:07:00] seamstress, making baby clothes in a baby factory. So that’s why she came. JJ: She was a seamstress in Puerto Rico, too, then? DH: Yeah, right. JJ: So she actually knew a skill. DH: Right. Yeah, she brought that skill over here back in ’48. So she came first, and then a few of my uncles. JJ: And she came to Armitage and Halsted or to another place? DH: Straight to Halsted and Armitage. JJ: Straight to Halsted and Armitage in ’48. DH: Nineteen forty-eight, there were already Puerto Ricans here. (laughter) JJ: On Halsted and Armitage, okay. (inaudible) 4 �DH: Yeah, right. So that whole area was there. Then my uncles settled in -- and they came in the ’50s, and we were -- I think my family was about the last one to come in into Chicago and that was in ’55. So there was a big family. [00:08:00] My grandmother had like, I don’t know, 10 kids because at that time, you had big families. My friend, [George Perez?], he has 17 brothers and sisters ’cause they were big families. (laughs) JJ: Where did he live? DH: He lived right next door to me. (laughs) JJ: (inaudible) apartments. DH: Right. And his apartment was bigger because they had to hold 17 people in there. So somehow or other there was a sense of that community. And the church was around, the Catholic church was around. We weren’t Catholic, we went to the Protestant church. JJ: What denomination? DH: I think it was Methodist. JJ: Methodist? DH: Yeah, Methodist ’cause they were doing a lot of outreach work and all of that. JJ: (inaudible). DH: So we were pretty active in that in those [00:09:00] -- we were like -- JJ: You were pretty active? What do you mean active? DH: The church, at that time, was changing because the neighborhood -- it used to be like there was a lot of Germans and Italians around there, and some African Americans, but not too much. I think it was probably the main ethnics which had 5 �German, Irish, and Italians, you know? Italiano. And so they were in the process of being moved out or moving out. And so -JJ: Was it a natural movement out or they decided to move out? DH: They were already moving out of the city, basically. They had improved their lot. I’m quite sure that they went through a lot of stuff, too, but they were already [00:10:00] in a place where they could do that, they could afford to move out. They were the ones that owned some of the stores around there. So they were moving out to the burbs, or starting to move out to the burbs, because the suburban explosion was happening. So some of them moved out there. The church that we started going to, we were the first of the Latino families to come in. JJ: You remember where that was at? DH: I can’t remember. JJ: ’Cause I know they had some Methodist on Larrabee and something. DH: It was around Larrabee. The Ideal Theatre was around there. The Ideal Theater was -- JJ: I remember (inaudible). Close to (inaudible). DH: Yeah. So that whole area was, of course, like that, you know? Yeah, so that’s what happened. [00:11:00] The churches were changing because the Latino families were coming in and all that. That’s what was going on. So the services started being in Spanish and all that. JJ: In the Methodist and the Catholic? 6 �DH: Yeah, the Catholic, too. Yeah, the Catholic, too. And you could see that because of the other -- as I said, the other ethnics were moving out. So that population in the churches was changing. But that became our social thing. JJ: What do you mean? What kind (inaudible)? DH: Well, that’s where a lot of families, that’s where they met. There wasn’t any place for them to go. My family and a lot of the families just worked, and they were tired all day, and then they would go to services at night or whatever was going on in the church. They had dinners and all that. But the churches were also helping us because we were poor. We were the poor people. [00:12:00] I remember during Christmas that I would get Christmas packages, and it didn’t have my name on it, it would just say, “Boy, 9.” “Girl, 12.” “Oh, I’m boy.” I remember that real vividly. Then they would come to me later, they were all, “These were donated by the richer parishioners.” (laughs) So that’s what I grew up with, all these things. We were poor and all that, pero como Puerto Rican there was a sense of tightness of community that was really going on. I’ll give you an example. When somebody died, everybody would chip in for the funeral expenses. For the holidays and all of that, everybody would have these big parties, and we even [00:13:00] cooked a pig in the bathtub. (laughter) We didn’t know. I remember a lot of my uncles drinking all this Pabst Blue Ribbon beer. All the adults drank Pabst Blue Ribbon beer. When they started making a little money, they would buy a new car every year that they could -- Studebakers. That’s what they had in those days. And I went to school. My older brother went to Waller High School which is now called Lincoln Park High School, it’s a real 7 �fancy school now. And I went Arnold School which was a little grammar school right next door. JJ: How was Arnold at that time? What do you remember of Arnold? DH: Arnold and [LaSalle?]? JJ: [00:14:00] And LaSalle School you went to? DH: Yeah, LaSalle School. At that time, when I was going in there, it was kind of diverse. You still had the German kids, and the Italian, and the Irish, and all that. You had those, and it wasn’t too bad. Although there was tension, you know -- I ran a lot, I got chased a lot. (laughter) If you went by the Italian neighborhood, forget it. You know you’re going to get your ass kicked or you know that you were gonna to get chased, so I knew how to run and I knew -- you know, we learned what our boundaries were, you know what I’m saying? We knew that if you went this way, it might be dangerous, so you had to be careful which way you crossed and all of that. JJ: And this is when you were living near the park? DH: By the park, right. JJ: [00:15:00] Was there white gangs or just white youth? DH: Yeah, white gangs. JJ: They were chasing the Latinos? DH: Right because the thing about us is that -- JJ: And you weren’t in a gang at that time? DH: No. JJ: You were just Puerto Rican, and they were just chasing you. 8 �DH: They were just chasing us. Right. There wasn’t a gang at that time. The gangs came later on, and it was kind of, I think, for protection. It was really protecting ourselves and all of that. We were getting chased a lot. Part of the thing was the racism that existed. The ethnics and all that, like I said, the Irish, the Italians, and the Germans, and whatever -- and the Italians were the ones that would first called spic. It wasn’t us, [00:16:00] but we inherited that word. These were lightskinned Europeans most of them, but the Italians were a little darker, and it took them a long time to get accepted. But when we came, we had this African Caribbean look to us and all that, and they didn’t know what the hell to make of us because we were darker-skinned and so forth, and really mixed, it confused the hell of out of them ’cause some of us were real light-skinned. Like I got cousins that were red-haired and freckled face, and I have cousins that had really (Spanish) kinky hair like I had and all that. So that’s when we were introduced to racism and all that. [00:17:00] I couldn’t get a haircut at a regular barber shop because they said, “We don’t do your type of hair.” I remember that. So we had to go and get our hair cut by [Don Benjamin?] who was our community barber shop. He didn’t have a license, but he did it in his basement or whatever -- in the back, somewhat of a garage. We learned to survive with that. That was our sense of neighborhood. The little stores, and there was [Vicente’s?] store which was really like a bodega, he was one of the first ones to own a store. JJ: Do you know where that was located or no? 9 �DH: That was around Larrabee. Larrabee and Webster. Webster and Lincoln and Larrabee, right there. That whole area was -- it’s where we lived. Some of my uncles moved further [00:18:00] west. JJ: When did they start moving west? DH: About a couple of years later. JJ: Fifty-seven? DH: Yeah, ’57 and all that. But they had been here already, so they were making a little bit more money, so they were able to afford -- what we did was we moved to 626 West Webster. That’s by what they call Oz Park now. And that was all Puerto Ricans around there. It used to be a Swedish neighborhood ’cause they still had the Swedish hall or whatever it was. JJ: When you say all Puerto Rican, 60 percent? DH: I would say about 70 percent. Again, families, big families, and we all kind of knew each other. I’ll give you an example. A few of my aunts, we all lived in the same -- there was a house here -- [00:19:00] because we were able to afford a little bit more -- and it was these old wooden houses. So they were bigger and all that. So we took up about three or four of those houses with just my family -cousins, and uncles, and all that -- and friends like George Perez and all that. And a couple of friends who were -- I had a friend whose name was [Randy, yeah?], he was German. And he had blond hair, blue eyes, and he was a good kid. His family accepted what was going on and all that. So it wasn’t total -- you know, just being alienated by everybody. But we were all basically in the same boat. It was like a class thing at that time, you know? Struggling to make it 10 �better and so forth. So this was on Webster Street, 626 West Webster, [00:20:00] and my grandmother still lived on Halsted. She lived there all of her life, Halsted and Armitage, in that same building. She lived there from ’48 until, I don’t know, sixty-something when she went back to Puerto Rico. JJ: What was her name? DH: Her name was Juana, [Tonya?] Juana everybody called her. And she liked to have a shot of rum every morning, and she smoked a cigar -- handmade cigar from -- they used to bring them in and [Don Filomeno?] used to make them [right there?]. Illegally, but -- JJ: Did they make cigars in Cidra? Was that a tobacco area? DH: Yeah, Cidra, my hometown. I remember some of the things that were in Cidra. And [Don Filomeno?] was the guy who made the cigars. And he lived right next door, and he had this little -- ’cause in my hometown, there were three things [00:21:00] that were around there in terms of agriculture: sugar cane, tobacco, and -- what’s the last one? Coffee. Coffee, they used to grow coffee. Those were the three main products that were coming out of Cidra at that time. JJ: Did people own farms there or did they work on the farms? DH: My grandfather and a lot of my family, when they were in Puerto Rico, they were agriculture. My dad worked in the cane fields and all that. He was a truck driver, he would bring in the cane and all that. But what happened was that the factories basically took over everything, so everything got industrialized, so there were no jobs for people that had an agricultural background. It was changing. I 11 �think that was when [00:22:00] Operation Bootstrap came in where the factories JJ: The ’40s. DH: Right, yeah. Well, the factories came in, and they were tax-free for seven years or whatever, and so they industrialized everything including (inaudible) aspect of it. Where my uncles and my family used to have little cane fields or growing coffee and all of that, these were taken over by the big corporations, and so then you had to work for them. So there were no jobs. It got harder and harder. And the cities didn’t have any jobs. Everything was being industrialized. So that’s why there was this big migration to Chicago -- specifically Chicago -- and they were encouraging the workers here -- the factory owners here and everybody was encouraging for Puerto Ricans to come over here. I mean there were ads in Puerto Rico, [00:23:00] in [el periódico?], in the newspapers in Puerto Rico talking about that they would pay your fare over here, set you up in an apartment and all of that. And those apartments that were in the ads, they looked really nice, but when we came here, (laughter) man, they didn’t look so good. But it was being encouraged because they had a lot of unskilled labor jobs at that time, what they called. And these were dangerous jobs. I had two of my uncles whose fingers were cut off. So you see a lot of old Puerto Ricans missing one finger and you know that they worked for these small factories and all that. Stewart-Warner was a big employer. This place right here, where I live now which is a loft space, these are old factories. Two of my uncles worked here. (laughs) 12 �JJ: What is the name of this factory? DH: I forgot what the name of it was. [00:24:00] Hein something -- or Hendrickson. All of these things that you see are called loft spaces today are really old factories. That’s how small they were, but a lot of Puerto Ricans worked in these places. JJ: You said there were like poetry people, or art -- culture people. DH: What we did is we bought three factories, old factories, these. There’s three of them in this complex, and we renovated them. Every one us, and it’s only artists. What we did is every one of us, we chipped in. This was around 10 years ago. We chipped in $3,000 each, and we bought them because we got tired -- not only as a Puerto Rican being moved out and gentrified, but as an artist, the same thing. [00:25:00] Artists go where it’s cheap, where the rent is cheap and all that, and then what follows is we make it pretty or attractive, and we do shows and that attracts, and boom, before you know it, we get moved out because the realty people come and that’s a prime area right now. I saw this happen in Old Town when we were there. I saw artists moving in and all that, and I saw a little theater space going up there called Second City. (laughs) I saw the storefront. I used to get coffee for those guys, they would send me to go get coffee for them. And so I saw that, and a few years later, boom. Got commercialized. And everybody, including the artists, got moved out. So not only did I get moved out as a Puerto Rican, low-income and all that, but I got moved out also as an artist. So this place here is a result of gentrification. [00:26:00] What they call Wicker Park now 13 �on Milwaukee and Damen North Avenue, that used to be artists a few years ago, and then it got commercialized because -JJ: Wasn’t that also a Puerto Rican community, too? DH: Yeah, before that, it used to be a Puerto Rican community. The whole thing around here was Puerto Ricans. Again, a few of my cousins lived over there on Damen North and all that. And so I remember my friends, [Eddie?], (inaudible), and some of them, we all grew up there, they all grew up around there. So they got moved out. At first, they were living well with the artists who could afford it in the little storefront. The artists were encouraged to move over there. That was a real conscious thing done by the realty people, bring in the artists. Then in a few years, boom. It got gentrified. You go over there now, you can’t touch that area. [00:27:00] You cannot touch it rent-wise. So we got moved out not only as Puerto Ricans, but as artists, also. That’s been the history of artists. We move into a neighborhood, and then we get commercialized out and gentrified. We got this building here with the idea that we were not going to get moved out again. So we all chipped in, bought the building, and we got the city to subsidize us. Our argument was that we are low-income to moderate-income people and therefore we should get subsidized, and they did. They subsidized the hell out of it. So we bought the building, we prettied it up, Mayor Daley came by, at that time, and he loved it. [00:28:00] We were a case study. (laughs) But here’s the idea. We all own our own units, and they’re beautiful. We had an architect come in and all that. We all own our own units, and we got them cheap. But the thing is we can’t sell at the market price. In other words, we can’t buy here and then 14 �make a killing and then -- sell it and make a killing on it. We can only sell a little bit more for the improvements -- whatever improvements we got, not to make a lot of money. And if we sell, we have to sell it to another artist or a family that’s low to moderate income. That way we don’t we get gentrified. That way we’re not going to have a lot of rich realty people coming here and trying to buy us out. JJ: So that concept came because when you were younger you were also [00:29:00] involved in organizing, too, with -- what was the name of the organization that you had? DH: The name of the organization that I had was called La Gente which means The People. And this is when I was younger. JJ: They were located where? DH: They were on Halsted and Roscoe. Halsted and Roscoe Street just a little north of Lincoln Park area. Just a little north of there. Lincoln Park was around Halsted and Armitage, Halsted and Lincoln Avenue, that whole area. We were just a little north of there. But they called it Lakeview area. But the same thing, that whole area was being gentrified. JJ: What was that area like in terms of population? Were there a lot of Puerto Ricans there, too? DH: Yeah. When we got moved out of Old Town and that whole area around there, some of us went west as far as Humboldt Park. [00:30:00] Some of us went north in the Lakeview and Uptown area, and that’s where we went to, we moved to the Lakeview area right around Belmont, Halsted. Yeah, that’s basically kind of like the dividing line that I remember. So from there -- 15 �JJ: Clark Street is also there, too. DH: Right. Clark Street. JJ: You were following Clark. DH: Right. Going up north on Clark Street. Thank God we didn’t go east because now we’d be at the lake drowned by now. (laughter) So that’s what happened. And it was a pattern -- boom, boom, boom, boom. We kept getting moved out. But part of the reason was -- one thing was that some of the adults, some of our parents and all that, always had the idea of going back to Puerto Rico. They were going to make money here and move back. [00:31:00] Twenty years in, they’re still waiting, (laughter) and they got stuck here. So they didn’t really invest in terms of buying. So they were at the mercy of these landlords and realty, and that’s why we kept moving around. That’s why I went to one, two, three, about four different schools because one apartment, the rent would go up and we had to move out again, you know, keep going. So that was the issue. So when I was living around Halsted and Roscoe in the Lakeview area, there was -- this was ’60s, so I learned -- Saul Alinksy, the organizer, he had a lot of influence on a lot of us. And so I learned how to organize. A whole bunch of us young people learned how to organize and how to create tenant’s unions to help our people and the people in that area, [00:32:00] meaning that hold back the rent because a slum lord didn’t fix the pipes, or didn’t give us heat in the winter because we couldn’t afford the rent that month or whatever, so they would cut off the heat or didn’t fix things. And again, roach and rat infested and all that. They just didn’t give a damn. And so we learned how to organize, and form tenant’s 16 �unions, and go in there and hold the rent until things got fixed. And we learned how to do the publicity game. Bring in the newspapers, bring in whatever just to shame these landlords. So it became a big issue. JJ: So La Gente was doing this? DH: Yeah. What happened was this -- I used to be a youth worker [00:33:00] at that time. I had graduated from Lake View High School and I was going to Wright City College, and so I got a part-time job as a youth worker, and I worked for Jane Addams Center. So I was supposed to work with the gangs. At that time, the gangs were like the Eagles, the Latin Eagles and all that. In that area, there was the Aristocrats which was the last stronghold of the Irish. (laughter) And so I used to do that. And so with the Latin Eagles and all that. And we really did a great job at keeping things cool and all that because we’re close to them, we’re from the streets. We knew how to identify with them and they trusted us and that was the thing. But a lot of changes were going on. These were the ’60s, so things were getting politicized more. [00:34:00] People’s consciousness was being raised. And so south of us in the Lincoln Park area, there’s a group called the Young Lords. They started an organization, they started organizing there, and that influenced us. A little further up north, the same thing. It was trickling up. Again, the sense of community. JJ: What sort of things influenced the -- DH: The way that they were working with the community, the way that they were organizing. As a model, I think they used the Black Panther Party and all of that. And in terms of setting up free food pantries, the free breakfast programs and all 17 �of that, these were models that we also used. Advocating for poor people in the welfare office, we learned how to do that from the Young Lords. [00:35:00] We learned the people at the welfare office, they have to be there all day, so we would go over there with pots of rice and beans and feed the people (laughter) and advocate for the welfare people because they were -- the people on welfare that were there because these welfare offices, they were abusive. They made everybody that needed money or needed help, they made them feel bad. They made them wait all day there, and shame them. And these workers, they just treated them bad, and so that’s why. And at the same time, we learned that you could form unions, organize for the welfare recipients. So the welfare recipients started learning [00:36:00] all of that. They became advocates. And so that’s what we were doing. Doing tenant’s unions, forming tenant’s unions around there. Basically the same thing because, again, this community organizing became a real thing for me. JJ: Who were some of the people that were working with you at that time? What were some of their names? I remember [Americo?] or something like that. Was it -- DH: Americo. Americo Rodriguez was there. (inaudible) Ramirez was there. [Elba?] -- I forgot her last name. There was a whole bunch of us. A couple of priests, Father [Lizek?] and I forgot the other one. They were pretty radical. And so they all worked with us. [Sally Contreras?] was another one. She took on the telephone [00:37:00] company. JJ: What was that? What did she do? 18 �DH: Well, what she did is that they weren’t hiring enough Latinos, Puerto Ricans in the telephone company. So she did some research and found out that a lot of Puerto Ricans were making long distance phone calls all the way to Puerto Rico and that they were making money off of us. So she threatened them with boycott. They started saying, “If you don’t hire more people, we’re going to boycott you.” And I’ll be damned if it didn’t work. And she brought a whole group of people. JJ: Sally Contreras? DH: Sally Contreras. She brought a whole bunch of people to the telephone company and said, “If you don’t hire us, more Latinos, more Puerto Ricans, we will boycott.” And that was a threat, and it worked. It really worked. More Latinos started [00:38:00] being hired and all that. JJ: Did you work with any other groups in Lakeview? DH: What happened with me was that I was working with the Eagles. And the police thought that I was teaching them -- well, I was -- but what happened was that the Civil Liberties Union, they had a little booklet about your rights. And at the playground, the Eagles and some of the other street clubs, I gave them copies of this, little manuals on learning their rights if they were arrested and all that. And I’ll be damned, they picked it up. That’s what was going on. JJ: So if they were arrested not to say anything and -- DH: Right. Say, “Why are you arresting me?” And they would ask why. And the police didn’t like this. So they thought that I was some kind of a radical. So they set it up so that I [00:39:00] would get beaten get up by them. They wanted to kill 19 �me. They set it up, they made an arrest and all of that the night I went out there to see what I could do. Before I know it, I was surrounded by police. JJ: You were beaten up? DH: Yeah, I was beaten up, they were trying to open my hand and put a gun in it. I knew what time what was. That was a [drop?] gun, and one of them was gonna do me fatal (laughs) injury. But I didn’t open. But after that, I was so upset that I quit. I quit working and I just became an organizer. So the Latin Eagles became the Latin Eagle Organization. Again, using the Young Lords as an example. And it was called LEO, but then we changed our name to La Gente because we wanted to like -- that whole neighborhood was -- although it was primarily Puerto Rican, it also had some African American and some poor white people that lived in that area. [00:40:00] Because just north of us was Uptown, and there was a lot of poor white up there. Southern Appalachians, they used to work the mines and now were living up there. And it was pretty bad. So we changed our name to be inclusive of everybody in that neighborhood. It represented what we had. So it was called La Gente, and it was -- the model that we used was the model that the Young Lords had set up just south of us. And the same issues -- getting moved out, being gentrified. The same problems. So we set that up. And if you look at it, at Lincoln Park, you had the Young Lords, the Lakeview area had La Gente, and then north of us was the Young Patriots. So that whole area around there was influenced by the Young Lords [00:41:00] in terms of what was going on. And in turn, I think it was the Black Panther Party and some of the other groups that influenced all of us. So we were learning from the Civil Rights 20 �Movement, everything that was going on at that time. So our consciousness was raised, and so that’s what came about. That’s what came about. So that’s where La Gente came into being. And we organized, we did, like I said, free pantry which is now still in existence, it’s called the Lake View Free Food Pantry. It’s still going on. It’s still going on. So some things lasted. So that was the dynamics that were happening at that time. JJ: So there was some connection not only in the -- in terms of the ideology, but I mean there was [00:42:00] actually good communication with the Young Lords at the time and vice versa? DH: Oh, yeah. We supported each other, you know? JJ: What do you remember that we did together? DH: I remember whenever the Young Lords or the Young Patriots or whatever, whenever there was a big event or a march that was going on, we would participate in that. Here’s the thing is that I had friends in the Young Lords that I grew up with who went to high school with me and who I had known since we were little. So even though they were a Young Lords member, we were still together. (laughs) So it was like -- you know what I’m saying? It was our familia. You know, [Carlos Flores?], [Alfredo?], all of these guys I’ve known. JJ: And, actually, there was no initiation or anything, you just started working. DH: Right, we just started working. We just started coming and doing it. JJ: ’Cause I remember being at a lot of your events, not just one or two. DH: Right, [00:43:00] a lot of events that we were -- JJ: But I always knew that you were also the head of La Gente. 21 �DH: Right. Yeah. JJ: So the Young Lords were political, but they were also from the street. So I mean did you actually hang out with any of the Young Lords? DH: Yeah, and I hung out -- JJ: What do you remember about that? I mean what type of people? How were they? DH: I remember we used to party a lot. (laughs) I used to hang out -- JJ: When you say party, what do you mean? DH: Partying. We would go to parties together, (Spanish) [00:43:46] and all of that stuff. JJ: Dancing? DH: Yeah, dances. JJ: (inaudible). DH: Yeah, yeah. JJ: I’m talking about this is before they became political or -- DH: Yeah. JJ: Okay, so you knew them [00:44:00] before they became political. DH: Right. JJ: How were they before they became political, the Young Lords? I mean what do you remember? You said the parties and -- DH: That’s basically about it. There were fights once in a while and all that stuff, but, again, it was because, basically, we had to defend ourselves from the white boys 22 �-- from the white gangs around there. They used to try to beat the shit out of us. So there was this territorial thing that happened. So I remember some of that -JJ: So there wasn’t that [gang of?] today? I mean there was a difference or -- I mean at that time, that was the early part of the gangs, but today -- but it was more territorial. Can you describe what that means? The difference? DH: There was a sense of protection. [00:45:00] We had to protect -- the Young Lords, what I saw, and I remember some of the other gangs and all that, even though once in a while they would fight amongst each other, it was primarily protecting themselves from some of the -- you know, Lo Italiano and some of the Irish gangs and all of that. I think it was born out of protecting ourselves and protecting the neighborhood ’cause even though -- they didn’t call themselves gangs. We used to call them street clubs. (laughs) So these street clubs weren’t just -- a lot of people were not afraid of them because these were their sons and daughters and all of that that were a part of it. And they used to hang out together so they could go to the boys’ club or whatever and feel safe. [00:46:00] But, also, they used to do things like, again, when [Donia Josefa?] died or something like that, these clubs would make a collective. They would go around and make a collection and so they could have a proper burial for her or ship her back to Puerto Rico where they would buried and all of that. So there was thing of helping out the community. They never really attacked their own community. Never. I never saw that. Never saw that. So we used to hang out, and that’s about it. Just hang out and talk about what was going on. 23 �JJ: Do you remember there was a big incident that happened and it was about a week long. [00:47:00] It was on Halsted near Belmont by California Terrace. There was a place called -- DH: Oh, yeah. JJ: What do you remember about that? DH: I remember there was -- JJ: What was that about? DH: I had two friends that lived in that. JJ: What year was that around? Basically it was like sixty -- DH: Sixty-five maybe. Yeah, around ’65, ’66. JJ: This was at California Terrace by Barry. DH: By Barry, right over there. Right. JJ: Was that Lincoln or Clark? DH: Halsted. It was Halsted, Barry, and Clark. California Terrace. A lot of Puerto Ricans lived there, and that was a slum. I mean really bad. My friend, [Jimmy Morales?], lived there. What happened is that it got -- it got so bad that I think it was Father Lizek and maybe [Father Charlie?], [00:48:00] real activists -- and a lot of Puerto Ricans there went to their church which was -- I forgot the name of that church on Wellington. Anyway -- JJ: (inaudible). DH: Yeah, right. And so they organized the people there -- JJ: But there was an incident. I believe the Aristocrats had to jump somebody from there or -- were you involved? 24 �DH: No. JJ: I know that a lot of people from Halsted & Dickens and the Eagles -- DH: Oh, yeah. Yeah, right. Eagles. JJ: -- came here to fight with the Aristocrats. DH: The Outcast Angels. (laughs) JJ: Yeah, the Angels. DH: Well, they used to be called the Angels. JJ: They had a whole week of -- gang-banging for a whole week. DH: Yeah. JJ: (inaudible). DH: Yeah, against the Aristocrats. JJ: Were you involved? Were you a part? DH: Oh, yeah. Yeah. JJ: What do you remember of that, of that era? ’Cause other people have mentioned that, also. DH: What I remember is that we were really -- I was really pissed off [00:49:00] at what happened. And Jimmy Morales and some of the other people, we wanted to exact some vengeance on what happened because they really -- I think what they did is they beat up a kid or tried to rape one -- I think they tried to rape one of the girls. What was her name? I can’t remember her name. I want to say [Ava?]. But they really roughed her up pretty bad. So that’s what did it. That’s what lit the fuel. And so the Eagles, Outcast Angels -- who else was there? JJ: I know Halsted & Dickens, all the different gangs -- clubs, all the different clubs. 25 �DH: Yeah, clubs, all the clubs around there. JJ: And Halsted & Dickens came up there. There were two or three hundred people out there (laughs) for a week. For a whole week. DH: For a whole week, yeah. And driving around. They used to drive [00:50:00] around looking for the -- and I think that was about the last -- that’s what really did the Aristocrats in. I think they were never powerful (laughs) after that. They lost. So it was a statement that was being made. So the Aristocrats, they understood what was going on, so they chilled out. After that, they were no longer that powerful. But I remember that. The thing I’m talking about is in California Terrace -- there’s two. A few years later -- yeah, it was a few years later. You know, that place was so bad that they organized, and they -everybody there, all the tenants, they organized and they held their rent back in escrow. And then they had an opening, [00:51:00] a house -- what do you call that? A house-warming party or whatever, and they invited the press, the invited the public to come and see what it was really like in there. And they had in little baggies or something, they had a cockroach, a dead mouse in there, and they were giving it to people just to show how bad it was. And it worked. It worked. The city got on their case over there, the inspectors came and really -- because the inspectors were on the take. So, of course, all these slum lords, they could just pay off and nothing would be done about it. JJ: So what do you mean on the take? I mean inspectors. DH: The take means that a lot of inspectors, they’re supposed to come in and inspect, and if they see things that are bad or wrong, they’re supposed to report it back to 26 �the city and force the landlord to make repairs, basically to improve the building. And a lot of them [00:52:00] were on the take, that means that they were bribed. That means that the landlords, once a month or whatever, he would pay them off. So much was set aside just to pay off the inspectors not to come in there. And I’m talking about electrical work, I’m talking about just things that really needed to be done. A lot of fires occurred in these buildings ’cause of the bad wiring that happened, and the electrical inspector and all that was supposed to come, and he would take a bribe and just leave it as is and say everything’s perfect. So that’s what happened. JJ: What else do you think we should add to the interview that we haven’t touched upon? I know we didn’t go into other events that you participated in. DH: So much to say. One of the things I want to say is [00:53:00] that at that time -all of us were young, we were the ones who were really leading a lot of this stuff, and organizing, and doing really great stuff not just in our community, but in terms of nationwide. The anti-war movement, that influenced us. The hippies, (laughs) the Yippies, the Youth International Party -- all of these things. The Black Panther Party, all of the -- SDS, all of these. We were all basically together on all of this. So that’s what I remember. It’s all connected. This is not an isolated factor, this was going on nationwide, [00:54:00] and so that influenced us. One of the things, also, that happened was that I’m a poet, I’ve been a poet since I was 11 years old. And so me and other artists, we organized. Got Gamaliel Ramírez, some musicians, artists, and all that, we started doing a lot of things together. And out of that outcome we created El Taller which means The 27 �Workshop. And what we did is that all of us artists got together and formed this organization to deal with community, and we recruited a lot of kids, and we work primarily with kids, to come and help us do art. So the graffiti that was being painted up there by some of the kids on the street, some of the gang bangers if you want to call them, some of them really have talent. (laughs) [00:55:00] So Gamaliel and other artists took them in and showed them how to do murals. So out of that graffiti experience came these beautiful murals that are out there today, you see? So we had an influence to a lot of these kids. Some of them are really talented. They knew how to play bongo, and congas, and music and all that. So we steered them that way, and it worked. It worked. I was part of the whole cultural movement that we created. JJ: And on that same topic (inaudible) campaign, the aldermanic campaign. You did a thing with Bob Gibson or -- do you recall that? DH: Yeah. That’s when Cha-Cha Jiménez was running for alderman. (laughter) JJ: Do you remember any of those verses or anything? DH: And together. And together we can make it. [00:56:00] Turn around and we shape it. That’s how I remember that. That was a great song that Bob Gibson and I wrote together for -- JJ: For the aldermanic campaign. DH: -- for the aldermanic campaign of Cha-Cha Jiménez and the Young Lords. JJ: Bob Gibson is a folk singer and (inaudible). DH: Bob Gibson was really well -- I mean he made it big at one time. He was the ultimate folk singer. 28 �JJ: Well, you’re well-known, too, (inaudible). (laughter) So you did a few things like this, some events, in terms of supporting the Young Lords through the years. DH: In ’71, I published my first book. So then unbeknownst to me, I became the first Latino poet to be published in the state of Illinois. So that’s been an honor that I created, but I didn’t know that at that time. [00:57:00] In terms of the arts and the cultural aspect of it, it’s been a movement. It’s been a part of the movement for a long time. I’m part of that movement that was influenced by the Young Lords. I was influenced by the Black Panther Party, I was influenced by a lot of what was going on at that time. I’m a product of that. At that time, I had an afro. I’m baldheaded now, but I was 6’2” with that damn afro because I used to pick that sucker up. (laugher) I used to wear dashikis and all of that stuff. And, plus, the connection to Puerto Rico, that was important. Puerto Rico Libre, you know, tengo Puerto Rico en mi corazon. That was an influence from the Young Lords ’cause they were the ones that really brought that aspect into the Puerto Rican community here. Free Puerto Rico [00:58:00] about the colonial status of Puerto Rico and all of that, all of that was taught to us by the Young Lords. I know there are other people now that are trying to revise history and say, “Well, we’re the ones” -- no. No, it was the Young Lords. Cha-Cha Jiménez and that group over there that really raised our consciousness in terms of connecting back to our culture because we were losing it here in some ways, so we got acculturated. If it wasn’t for the Young Lords, there wouldn’t be this Puerto Rican pride that we have today that still exists. I think it was (inaudible) that wrote something about the identity crises that we suffered because when we came here everything was 29 �in terms of Black or white, but we were both. We’re multicultural, multiracial, and all of that. [00:59:00] And so the Young Lords, again, were the ones that really instigated that whole concept of being proud of who were, and learning about our culture, learning about our roots. That’s important. Really important, you know? And so that’s what rooted us together. If it wasn’t for all those lessons taught -because, see, the Young Lords were not just an organization, they became the teachers. Simple. END OF VIDEO FILE 30 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f830d6aab9659211fea61a0b5bd0fefe.mp4 a722e34654698b20c1842a63b07199a3 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry David Hernández vídeo entrevista y biografía Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puertorriqueños--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Artes, Puertorriqueños--Illinois--Chicago Renovación urbana--Illinois--Chicago Juventud--Illinois--Chicago Discriminación en la vivienda--Illinois--Chicago Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Viviendas--Illinois--Chicago Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Hernandez_David Title A name given to the resource David Hernández video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hernández, David Description An account of the resource David Hernández was born in Cidra, Puerto Rico and arrived in Chicago in 1955. He has volunteered with the Young Lords in many activities and events. But his primary community work has been with La Gente, an organization he founded that worked with Latinos and the poor of Lakeview. Originally the group was called the Latin Eagles Organization. Like the Young Lords, La Gente also had a Breakfast for Children Program. The group stood with the Young Lords for affordable housing and against Mayor Richard J. Daley’s displacement of Puerto Ricans from the lakefront and near downtown areas of the city. Mr. Hernández has been called the unofficial, “Poet Laureate of Chicago.” He blends folk, jazz, and Afro-Latin music that chronicles the pedestrian walking down Chicago’s streets. One of his famous poems is called “La Armitage” and features the neighborhood of Lincoln Park and several prominent Young Lords. Mr. Hernández performed at Harold Washington’s mayoral inauguration in 1977 and at his funeral. He also performed in Humboldt Park for the Young Lords and at their 40th Anniversary in 2008. Today, David Hernández lives in Wicker Park, continues to be active in the community, and to collaborate with the Young Lords. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puerto Ricans--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Arts, Puerto Rican--Illinois--Chicago Urban renewal--Illinois--Chicago Youth--Illinois--Chicago Discrimination in housing--Illinois--Chicago Civil Rights--United States--History Housing--Illinois--Chicago Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-03-29 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a3d3ebc4320ef314be129250e2f9adcc.pdf 156c95d987fcb59faf23ecb405d8f966 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: David Lemieux Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 7/15/2012 Biography and Description David (pronounced "Daveed") Lemieux joined the Illinois Chapter of the Black Panther Party in the spring of 1969. At age 16, he was the second youngest member of that Chapter. He was a "rank and file" member and functioned in all BPP activities including the Free Breakfast for Children Program and the dissemination of the Black Panther newspaper. As a member of the Education Cadre, he was constantly engaged with "speaking" the mission and purpose of the Black Panther Party. He remained active with the BPP into the early 70s. In 1982, after consultation with other members of the activist community, David joined the Chicago Police Department and began a 26 year career where he was able to use his office and authority as a vehicle to serve the people. Currently, David Lemieux gives seminars facilitated by Chicago's Black Star Project entitled "Keeping OUR children out of the 'Just US' System" and speaks locally and nationally on the role of peace officers serving the community through the justice system. He is active with the Chicago Black Panther History Project and other efforts committed to preservation, education and reclamation of the true history of our struggle. �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: David, you can give me your name, full name, and date of birth, and where you were born? DAVID LEMIEUX: Okay. My name is David Lemieux. I was born April 10, 1953 in Georgetown, Ohio. I came to Chicago when I was very, very small. I have no real memories of Ohio. I grew up in Chicago. JJ: So, you were like a couple years old? DL: I was in maybe first grade or something. Kindergarten, first grade. JJ: So, no recollection whatsoever? DL: Not really, no. JJ: And your parents, where did they come from? DL: My father’s from Haiti. My mother’s from here. JJ: She’s from Chicago? DL: Yes. They’re both deceased now. Well, as far as I know, my father’s deceased. (laughs) I can’t verify. JJ: Oh, you can’t verify? DL: No, if he’s alive, no. My father’s name was [Mark Lemieux?]. [00:01:00] That’s about all I can tell you. JJ: So, you didn’t grow up with him at all? DL: Very short term. I was raised essentially by my mother. JJ: What do you know about him? 1 �DL: I know he was from Haiti. I know he was working at a hotel maybe. They met -of course, my mother was white, my father was Black, so it was not the most popular thing in 1953, or the safest thing for people. They were together for a little while. Things were not easy for them. I don’t know if he stayed here. I don’t know if he went back to Haiti. I really don’t know. JJ: Where were they living? (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) DL: In Chicago. Well, see, I lived in Chicago -- when we moved to Ohio -- I’m sorry, when we came here from Ohio, [00:02:00] we moved to Hyde Park in Chicago. I don’t know a whole lot of my parents’ history. I get a little confused. I don’t know if they met here. My mother traveled a lot. So, I don’t know if she met my father here or if she met him in San Francisco because she lived in California for a while. JJ: Tell me what she did. She traveled (inaudible)? DL: She traveled. My mother was a free spirit, bro. She just went different places. When she came here she was working. I remember when I was a little kid she worked at the Conrad Hilton hotel downtown. And then, she worked for this -- as an accountant at a warehouse. Not a trained accountant, but my mother was self-taught. She did books for this small company. Can’t really give you a lot of history about my parents. There’s not a whole lot I can tell you. JJ: So, you grew up in Hyde Park. DL: Grew up in Hyde Park basically. JJ: Hyde Park is a rich area. [00:03:00] 2 �DL: Hyde Park isn’t a rich area at all. But Hyde Park is close to the University of Chicago. It’s a very diverse community. I don’t know if my mother did it just by accident. I don’t really see her as being someone who was going to do a lot of research. When she came to Chicago, like I said, I was very small. To end up in Hyde Park, which was, for Chicago, a very diverse community -- remember, Chicago was very segregated. Hyde Park, however, was not because of the University of Chicago community. There were people from all over the world. I went to St. Thomas the Apostle Grammar School which was, as I recall, roughly 80 percent Black, 10 percent white, and [00:04:00] 10 percent miscellaneous. I may be a little wrong with the figures. It may have been a little less than that. But it was primarily Black students, although there were still white students there that you could see, that were visible. There were families there that had been there a long time. JJ: So, it was the neighborhood that changed basically. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) DL: Hyde Park never really, really -- Hyde Park has been pretty consistent all the way through. I mean, there’s more Black people there now. The neighborhood, when I was growing up, was, like I say, it was diverse. There were a lot of Black folks living there, and there were a lot of white people living there, and there were some Asians living there. Wasn’t a lot of Latinos. There were some Eastern Europeans. There was a few Latinos. JJ: There were [a few, is that right?]? 3 �DL: But not a lot. But not a lot. But this was in, [00:05:00] what, early ’60s. I went to high school. I started high school in ’68. Went to Hales Franciscan until I got kicked out. JJ: To where? DL: Hales Franciscan. My grammar school was at 55th and Woodlawn. My high school was at 4935 Cottage Grove. So, a lot of my high school years were spent at Parkway Gardens which is at 64th and King Drive. I mean, one of those situations where I didn’t necessarily live there but I was there all the time. Well, I was a kid. I had a girlfriend that lived there. I spent a lot of time with her family. JJ: So, how was your childhood? DL: Childhood was interesting. You know, I always use the term -- I love my mother [00:06:00] dearly, but my mother raised me by what I describe as benign neglect. Benign neglect is a political term that usually refers to the relationship between a colonial power and its colony, where the colonial power doesn’t really mess with the colony as long as they do what they’re supposed to do. They’re not really hands on in doing a lot of raising. My mother certainly gave me a foundation for right and wrong and etiquette, things that were very important. I’m certainly not going to -- she wasn’t neglected there. I wasn’t neglected as far as not having food and clothes and all that. But my mother worked in 3:00 to 11:00 shift when she worked at the Conrad Hilton when I was in grammar school. So, by the time I got home from school -- she would see me off in the morning, but when I got home from school, there was nobody there until eleven o’clock at night. So, I was kind of on my own. [00:07:00] 4 �JJ: [I actually worked?] at the Conrad Hilton later (inaudible). DL: Yeah, so, I was one of the original -- what they called latchkey kids where they -she tried to have babysitters and people that would watch me. I had brief periods where I would go maybe stay with somebody after school or whatever. School was like eight or nine blocks from where we lived. So, that was a nice little walk. Wasn’t no taking the bus. But since she had to go to work before I got home, that never worked out because I would always eventually just walk home. I didn’t want to stay with other people. I did stay with one lady for a while. That was kind of cool, her and her family. Actually, her name was [Nancy Ramos?]. She was Mexican. Actually wish I had stayed there longer because maybe I could have learned Spanish. [00:08:00] But she had a kid and a husband and sister in law. They just sort of babysat for me. I wouldn’t really sleep there, but I would stay there. They lived close to where we lived. Then I would just go home. They would take me or walk me home. So, I wouldn’t just be unsupervised for all those hours after school. But then, after a certain time, I was just pretty much on my own. I learned how to cook and do all that kind of stuff. And my mother was cool. JJ: Your mother’s name was what? (inaudible) DL: [Ann?]. JJ: And your father? DL: [Mark?]. JJ: Mark. And any brothers and sisters? DL: I’m an only child. 5 �JJ: You’re the only child. DL: Yeah. JJ: So, you were cooking and -- DL: Cooking and -- I got pretty self-sufficient. I started working a part time job when I was 15 as a busboy at a restaurant. [00:09:00] Matter of fact, I remember my mother going and lying about my age because you were supposed to be 16 to work. So, she went and told them. They didn’t ask for a birth certificate. So, she told them I was 16 so I could. I never had to give my mother any of my check. But once I started working, of course, then she didn’t have to give me as much money, which was good. I would do my own day to day maintenance with things. I mean, again, my mother certainly provided food, clothing, shelter, and love. We had a good relationship. It just wasn’t maybe the traditional -- I don’t know. I don’t have anything to compare it to too much. It’s how I grew up. JJ: So, then non-traditional, (inaudible). DL: It was cool. My mother said to me one time -- this was not when I was a small child. I was actually -- it may have even been when I was in the Panther Party. I’m not sure. [00:10:00] But my mother even said to me that, “Son, there are some things about you that I’ll never really understand exactly because you’re Black,” referring to me, “and I’m white,” talking about her. So, it was never -- I always liked to compare my mother to Mary Tyler Moore. She was so nice and kind of oblivious sometimes to things. At least maybe it appeared that way to me when I was younger. As she got older and I got older, I realized that she may not have been so oblivious to things that were going on. But at the time, she was 6 �just -- there was an instance that happened when I was in high school. I was always a troublemaker at school, but not a troublemaker like misbehaving, like doing anything [00:11:00] like gang stuff. But I got politicized when I was in seventh grade. I became attached to the struggle when I was in seventh grade. So, that’s a kid. That’s a grammar school kid. I saw Stokely Carmichael on television. And this was when all the demonstrations were going on in the South. They had the Freedom Riders riding the buses. And keep in mind, I had never been south except for one trip to Florida, and I’ll tell you about that. But when I saw Stokely Carmichael on TV, when he said Black Power, he was speaking before a bunch of people the Lowndes County Freedom Party in Lowndes County, Alabama. They were registering people to vote. And he was speaking at a rally, and he said very loudly that what we need is Black power. And when I heard that, I was like, “That’s what I’m talking about.” [00:12:00] I would say that and joining that Black Panther Party were two pivotal points in my development, I’d say, as a human being. They just were. Hearing that -JJ: What did it mean to you? DL: Well, the thing is this. When I was much smaller -- I must have been about five or six years old -- my mother and I went to Florida. My mother looked like a Latina. That’s how she looked. My mother had very coal black hair. My mother was a very nice looking woman. Her features and her very dark hair and the way she pulled it back -- we were at a swimming pool in Florida and I’m guesstimating it was about ’59, about the year the revolution down there, and a lot of Cubans came to the U.S. [00:13:00] I mean, granted a lot of them were what may have 7 �been perceived in Cuba as white Cubans. They were really people with money. Some people came. But in America, they were people of color. In America, they were foreigners and people of color. JJ: Even though they were [white?] (inaudible). DL: Well, that becomes a vague term. That becomes a vague term. But there was still -- in Miami, there was always a lot of Cubans. There’s a lot of Cubans in Miami. So, we were at this swimming pool that didn’t have any signs posted or anything like that. My mother couldn’t swim. But in a section of the pool there were what of course I know now to be Cubans. And they were visibly a little different than the other people that were there. And they were in a certain section of the pool. I mean, a lot of this is retrospect because I remember it from then. [00:14:00] Nobody ever taught me how to swim. Somehow I just knew how to swim. So, when I was a little kid, I could swim. So, I get in the pool and my mother got up to use the washroom. I mean, there’s a lifeguard there. She didn’t know how to swim anyway, so nothing she could do if I started to drown. (laughs) But she wasn’t really worried about that because I could swim really well. So, I just got in the water and I just started swimming all over the pool. Well, apparently, I swam in a part of the pool that the Cubans were not supposed to go into. But I’m just swimming. And a bunch of white teenagers -- I mean, I even remember this now. A bunch of white teenagers jumped in the pool and they started pushing me under water. And I remember they were saying, “What’s the matter, Carlos? Can’t you swim? What’s the matter, Jose? Can’t you swim?” I mean, they’re calling me all these names like that. So, obviously they 8 �thought that I was Latino, that I was with this group of Cubans. [00:15:00] Had they known I was Black, it might have even been worse. But I knew I was being singled out for some difference I had with these folks. That was, I would say, my first real encounter with racism. But I certainly didn’t analyze it back then. I didn’t really know what to associate that with until later when I got older and I figured out the Carlos and Jose part in 1959 in Florida and Cuba, whatever. But going back up to seventh grade and becoming attached to the struggle -- we were watching TV and we would see the dogs and stuff down in Birmingham and the water hoses. We saw all that. Just like you watched the war in Vietnam, you also watched the civil rights struggle going on. There was something about not fighting back that did not appeal to me. [00:16:00] I was terrified of the idea of going to the South, but I always imagined -JJ: (inaudible) DL: Yeah, I just wasn’t feeling that. I just wasn’t feeling that. And I will admit that I was terrified about going South. I mean, I thought they had Black folks just hanging, lynched from every tree because I had always been here. And like I said, the experience in Florida -- I really hadn’t put that into perspective then. I saw them throwing rocks. As a matter of fact, I even saw Dr. King when he was here. My mother took me to see Dr. King, I want to say, maybe at the auditorium or (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) [was pretty progressive?]. DL: Oh, yeah, without a doubt. She didn’t talk a whole lot about it, but she was. I mean, I sort of analyzed that later. It’s kind of hard going back to that time. It’s 9 �like, “Okay, cool. We’re going to see Martin Luther King. I know he’s about nonviolence. Okay.” [00:17:00] I was still a kid, but I just wasn’t really about that idea of these people throwing bricks and rocks and water hoses on you and siccing dogs on you and not fighting back. There was just something about that that just did not sit well with me. So, when I heard Stokely Carmichael say Black Power, it wasn’t just me, but some of my friends and a little bit older -- we would start talking about things that were going on. Keep in mind, we’re talking about a kid in grammar school. But we would start talking about social issues as much as our seventh and eighth grade minds could comprehend and figure out certain things. And then, I remember in eighth grade, that’s when we started listening to records of Malcolm X, “Ballot or the Bullet,” “Message to the Grassroots.” JJ: So, what year was this? DL: This was in ’67, I want to say, because Malcolm was assassinated in ’65. JJ: [I would say ’68 was?] (inaudible). DL: And ’67 -- I remember [00:18:00] listening to him actually at St. Thomas. We had an after school group. It was Black Christian Students Association. I wasn’t Catholic, but wasn’t none of us really religious at all. We just, okay, we had this group because that way we could use the facility and maybe get some Kool-Aid or whatever from the church. And we would sit there and we would discuss social issues. So, I was already very much attached to the whole idea of resistance when I was in eighth grade. So, when I went to high school -- JJ: Now, eighth grade -- where was the school? 10 �DL: Eighth grade, 55th and Woodlawn, St. Thomas. I went to high school at Hales Franciscan at 4930 Cottage Grove, Hales was the only all Black Catholic school. It was an all-male school. But at Hales, we started a Black student union. [00:19:00] Even though it was an all-Black school, we started a student union because we were sort of in conflict with the priests. The priests, all but one, were white. And we would have these things with them. “Look, you’re all a bunch of white missionaries trying to civilize us.” I mean, we really had these ongoing things with these priests. JJ: Would you come by that and tell them that? Because it’s kind of hard to talk to a priest like that. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) DL: Well, we would do it -- yeah, there were some of them that were pretty aggressive with their stuff. I remember being a sophomore in high school. When I was a sophomore in high school -- when does school get out? In June? In May of ’69 -- I started freshman year in ’68 and ’69 was my sophomore year. In ’69 I joined the Black Panther Party. I was in the party and still sitting in [00:20:00] school in Hales Franciscan wondering why I was there because I thought the revolution was going to start tomorrow, and I don’t know why I’m sitting here listening to these white people talk the counterrevolutionary nonsense. JJ: So, you thought the revolution was going to be -- DL: It was imminent. JJ: It was imminent? DL: It was imminent. JJ: You know, [a lot of people felt that?] (inaudible). 11 �DL: And again, I was 16. I mean, your sense of urgency is heightened. Your sense of mortality is nonexistent. So, why couldn’t it be the revolution tomorrow? I mean, hey, the brothers are ready to do what we need to do. And then of course, once I joined the party and could put organization to this -- I mean, I remember there was one of the guys that I went to high school with who was a little older than me who brought a Panther paper to school. [00:21:00] I remember looking at the Black Panther paper and he said, “Well, you know there’s a chapter here in Chicago.” This was ’69, and he was going to a meeting on a Tuesday night at 2350 West Madison. And I was like, “Man, that’s what I want to do. I want to do that.” I believe it was, like I say -- I’m almost positive that it was May because I know I was 16. And I was the second youngest member of the Chicago chapter. There was a brother we called [Oppressed?]. That’s not his name, but we called him Oppressed, who was 15. So, he was the youngest, and I was the second youngest. I remember coming to the meeting. And by me being so light complected, there were people that were looking at me a little funny. But the brother I was with said, “This is David, my friend from -- I got to school.” I guess he verified my race credentials or whatever. [00:22:00] I went to the political orientation class (audio cuts out) and studied the Red Book and started going to the breakfast program and selling the papers. I mean, being 16 years old and getting up at 4:30, 5:00 in the morning to go and serve breakfast to some children, especially -- ironically being an only child, I didn’t really have a lot of interaction with other -- I didn’t have no brothers or sisters. But I actually liked it, the whole idea of what we were doing. See, I sort of got it. I got it at a young 12 �age. I got the whole international view. My concern as far as my immediate concern is the quality of life for Black people in America. [00:23:00] That’s my immediate concern because that encompasses who I am and my family and what I’m dealing with. But I was able to immediately grasp our solidarity with these different liberation struggles throughout the planet. JJ: Because you’re looking at Stokely Carmichael and Black Power (inaudible). DL: Right, I’m really feeling that. JJ: You’re feeling it, okay. DL: And I’m feeling the Black Panther Party. Again, my concern, my personal concern, what David is concerned with is my community. But I recognized early the similarities between what other oppressed peoples are and have dealt with in the world. [00:24:00] I was able to understand the whole concept of capitalism and socialism. I got that there were these rich greedy people. JJ: And your mother is not telling you this. DL: No, I’m not getting any of this from her. JJ: Are you getting some of it from school? DL: Only from friends. I’m not getting any of this from -- there are no authority figures that are telling me this. This is from my own -- you have to remember, I was reading Malcolm X when I was in grammar school. I was reading Fanon when I was a freshman in high school. I read everything I could get my hands on. I read as much literature that I could get my hands on that had to do with the struggle, that had to do with resistance. I read Che. I read Fidel. I read that because I was ready to go to war. I mean, I liked the -- the social programs were 13 �fantastic. I understand. As a mature person -- [00:25:00] I’m 59 years old. I understand all that now. Back then, what I was waiting for was to have the [carbine?] and go to war. That was like -- I’ll do all these other things, but when do I get to get the [carbine?] and go to war? Yeah, I’ll do that, that’s great. But we’re talking about a 16-year-old now. We’re not talking about an adult. But the biggest appeal for the Panther Party and the greatest appeal to me personally was saying that our lives are precious enough, and our freedom or hopefully our future autonomy from this government is precious enough to fight for, to actually fight. Not have a conversation, not make [00:26:00] declarations, not file petitions and march and, “Please, can you all stop treating us like this.” I like the idea that if you try to harm me, if you try to hurt me, I will hurt you back, I will harm you. I am not going to let you do whatever you want to me because I am a child of the African Diaspora. That does not give you the right to have control over me to the point where you can do whatever you want to me or to my people just because, or because you can. I say you can’t. I say if you try, I’ll fight you back. I believed in that. This came from my -JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) DL: -- came from my friends and from me. JJ: And your mom a little bit. DL: Well, the thing with my mother was this. [00:27:00] My mother was proud of me that I was rebellious, if you want to put it, for lack of a better way of putting it. My mother, of course, had not been treated well by most of her family. I won’t include my grandparents. They were cool. My grandfather was legally blind, so 14 �he couldn’t see me anyway. And he just really -- my grandparents were very old. They were already in their seventies. I mean, my grandparents died when I was in grammar school. But they always treated me well when I would see them. They were in Ohio. They were cool. They never discussed anything. They never mentioned issues of race. I heard my grandfather use some terminology. I mean, I never heard him say nigger, but I heard him say darkies. I mean, I was a little, little kid. I heard my grandmother [00:28:00] bemoan the fact one time -- I think she said something like, “Couldn’t Ann find a white man?” She might have said that. But she didn’t -- but even saying that, she didn’t say that to me. I was probably not supposed to hear that. As far as the way they treated me, they treated me okay. But my politicization -- whatever, I’m not saying [the word?], but you know -- I got politicized and conscious on my own from my own reading and from what I saw. I didn’t need somebody to feed it to me. I read it. I started listening to Malcolm X. Watching people get beat and dogs sicced on them was enough for me. And you have to remember here in Chicago -JJ: (inaudible) DL: That was on television. But remember, here in Chicago, being so segregated, I knew that Hyde Park was a special community. But we could not go -- we, being Black folks, we could not go to Marquette Park. [00:29:00] We could not go anywhere near Bridgeport. We couldn’t -- when I was in grammar school, Black people couldn’t go to Rainbow Beach which is at 77th and South Shore Drive. It’s all Black people now. But when I was a kid, you could get beat to death over there. Matter of fact, all the way when I was in high school, a friend of mine got 15 �beat into a coma at Rainbow Beach, which is at 77th South Shore Drive. This is in high school. So, that had to be, again, ’69. It wasn’t even the 70-- you know, the ’60s. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) and the history in Rainbow Beach from the 1920s? DL: I think those riots were 31st Street maybe. I think when they killed -- JJ: So, 31st Street was Bridgeport. DL: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) 31st Street, yeah, but that far east isn’t, but Black folks were not welcome. There were riots there back in -- [00:30:00] JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) of Bridgeport. DL: Right, yes, it would have been. JJ: That’s where Mayor Daley’s [gang?]. DL: Exactly, the Hamburg gang. But a lot of people now -- it’s hard for them to imagine -- JJ: But Rainbow Beach you couldn’t go -- DL: Couldn’t go anywhere near there. South Shore -- there were some Black people living in South Shore. South Shore was like the really bourgeois stuff, at least that’s what we thought. You have to remember, people trying to analyze other people’s neighborhoods and their pocketbooks doesn’t always come out quite correctly. You may have someone living in a house that looks -- I mean, I never lived in a house until I was an adult. So, I thought that anyone that had a house was rich. I mean, that’s just what I thought. If you lived in a house, you must be rich. When it’s people working three and four and five -- not three or four -- but 16 �people that worked two full time jobs in order to provide that particular environment for their children. So, I realize now that they weren’t [00:31:00] rich. But I thought South Shore you had to be kind of rich to live there. Of course, I found out later that wasn’t the case. But reading Malcolm and listening to it, and then -JJ: You mentioned (inaudible). DL: No, I’m just saying, there are older people that I started being around -- I met another brother from Haiti, it’s actually “Ai-ti.” His name was [Leslie Vieux?], V-IE-U-X, Leslie Vieux. I don’t know whatever happened to him. I haven’t seen him since I was in eighth grade or maybe a freshman probably. But he was what was called a Black nationalist. And he would come and talk to us, and he talked to us about Haiti and about the formation of the country and how they defeated the French [00:32:00] and threw out their enslavers. So, I was pretty fired up by the concept of fighting for your freedom, protracted armed struggle. When I got in the party, I started reading Mao, Fidel, people that had had successful revolutions, and then also combined with the Haitian Revolution. JJ: Oh, the Haitian revolution? DL: I mean, all of it. Just all of that’s going on in my mind. JJ: You’re studying this. DL: Right. I’m reading about this. I read about Toussaint Louverture and JeanJacques Dessalines and Henri Christophe, and that was 1796 to 1804. But all that was inspirational. All that was like, “Well, you know what? You can fight 17 �against oppression and you can win. [00:33:00] And You can fight for real. You can actually fight.” JJ: Did you say you were born there or -- DL: No, I was born in Ohio. JJ: Your father was. DL: I was born in Ohio. I mean, it was just -- I’ve ironically had these contacts and connections with Haiti even though not so much through my father. It’s just worked out that way. It’s like it’s just meant to be that way. But the biggest appeal for the party to me was the idea of armed struggle. I’m just saying. The social programs were absolutely fantastic. I’m just saying for me philosophically the idea of armed struggle -- JJ: You were ready. DL: I was ready. JJ: And a couple of things. You were ready, but the party is saying, “We have to use the programs to educate you.” DL: Oh, sure, absolutely. I was ready but I wasn’t a fool either. [00:34:00] I did defer to the -- I perceived as the wisdom of people that were older than me. It’s funny. I say older than me when I see old films from then, and I realize that the leadership of the party was 20, 21 years old. I was 16, so they were older than me. So, I deferred to their -- I guessed they were smarter because they were older. Remember, I wasn’t from the generation that, like now where the dynamic between young and old is totally screwed up. There was some element of me thinking that maybe you knew a little more than me because you were older. And 18 �then, of course, the party had a central staff. When I first joined the party, Chairman Fred was still incarcerated. JJ: When was that? DL: May of ’69. I know exactly. If I got a calendar, I might even be able to figure out the date. I know it was a Tuesday evening in May, and I know it was eight o’clock. I mean, it was a meeting at the headquarters. [00:35:00] I took the number 20 Madison bus with the other guy I went to school with. And we got off the bus and it was raining. Junior Walker and the All-Stars was playing “What Does it Take to Win For Love for Me” from -- I don’t know if that was a record shop or -- there was a record shop that was right by Panther headquarters, and they were blasting that through the speakers. So, anytime I hear that, I think of that. I remember that very vividly. I was just a solider. I was rank and file in the party. I did the things that members of the party were expected to do. I sold papers. I went to the breakfast for children program. I went to rallies. I remember this guy inviting me once [00:36:00] to speak to -- because he knew I was in the Panther Party -- to speak to a group of people from the Baha’i faith because they wanted to know. And I talked to Che, you know, Minister Che. He’s like, “Yeah, go ahead, brother. You can talk to them if you want to.” It wasn’t like a big, huge -- it wasn’t like I was in auditorium. It might have been like 10 or 15 people over in Hyde Park. Remember, Hyde Park has always been a more unique community in the city than any other place. I mean, it just is. Even though the University of Chicago is the devil. Still -- (laughs) it’s the devil. At the same time because of it being an academic community, there were always 19 �bookstores and places of gathering where progressive people could gather. It’s just always been that way. [00:37:00] During the ’60s, we used to go up to the Point, and that was all Black folks. We would go out to the Point and brothers would play drums and sisters would dance -- it’s at 55th -- it’s the Lake Point, Promontory Point it’s called. It’s right there at 55th and the lake, Lake Michigan. It’s a park, it’s a park. And brothers would go out there and play drums and sisters would dance. We would solve the problems in the Black world. JJ: To have a discussion. DL: Yeah, right. Somebody might have even a little tape of Malcolm. There was not so much cassettes then, but someone might actually have a reel-to-reel -- they even had little portable record players. I remember them having little portable record players that you could buy. And I remember listening to Malcolm outside once on one of those record players like that. It was like this little portable thing. [00:38:00] But you could actually play records on it. I remember listening to Malcolm in the park once, a bunch of us sitting around. JJ: Do you guys were really listening to the speeches? DL: We listened to the speeches, yeah. JJ: So, that was [a whole study?], this is pre-Panther? DL: That was pre-Panthers yeah. But once I was in the party, like I said, I would go to the political education classes, and I was studying revolution. I was studying the revolutions that had occurred, how they occurred, how Fidel landed with the yacht, Granma it was called, and he had X amount of people. I mean, I’m not good with numbers. But let’s say he had 87 people, and almost all of them got 20 �killed immediately. They got spotted by a plane, by one of those spotter planes. And they killed a bunch of them. But because of the [00:39:00] true need for revolution in Cuba at the time, the oppression they were suffering under Fulgencio Batista, those who were left in Fidel’s group were able to go through the countryside and continue to recruit. So, they were able to replace all the people that were lost in the initial encounter. And the revolutionary army grew and grew and grew and grew. And as we knew, in 1959, they marched into Havana, overthrew Batista. He fled the country. I read about things like that. To me, that was very inspirational, how you can start with these very few people and be decimated. But still, as long as there were people who carried that revolutionary zeal and enthusiasm to the people, that you could organize and get the revolution to grow. [00:40:00] And I truly, truly in my heart believed that’s what was going to be happen here in America. I believed it. I believed it was going to happen and nothing could stop it. JJ: And your friends believed the same thing? DL: Yes. JJ: Did they join in? DL: Well, (laughs) the friend that I was talking about was in the party. This guy, he was already in the party, and he took me down there. I haven’t talked to him in many years. I don’t know what’s happening. Kind of lost contact with that particular person. But I have other comrades from the party that we remained tight for 40 years. JJ: What were some of the other comrades? (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) 21 �DL: When I first joined the party, I’m pretty sure that [Billy?] was there when I very, very first joined in ’69. This guy’s name was -- well, he may not want his name mentioned on this -- I don’t know what he’s doing now, so I won’t. [00:41:00] He and his brother were both -- he had a twin brother, and I can’t remember if his twin brother was participating, but I know he was in the Panther Party. Most of the people I go back really far with, you know. (laughs) When I joined the party, Che and [Wanda?] and Billy and, you know, [Billy Dunbar?]. We’ve stayed in contact pretty much off and on most of our lives since then. I’m also involved with the history projects as well. JJ: So, what is the history project? DL: The history project is where we’re trying to organize archival information about the Illinois chapter of the party and also do similar to what we’re doing now, [00:42:00] interviews, oral histories, oral histories. Pretty much that, and compile it into a presentable program that can be used. JJ: Why do you think there’s a need for [that now?]? DL: Well, because as time passes, the people who can tell the real history of what happened in any given circumstances are not going to be here forever. So then, everything becomes speculative. People our age -- we’re all plagued by the veracity of our memories. I mean, maybe we’re not always so clear. But we’re more likely to be clear than someone who wasn’t there at all. [00:43:00] We may remember different versions of something. But I would rather have two or three people who were actually at an event or around during a certain time in history speaking on that than someone who wasn’t there at all speculating on what they 22 �think might have been. That’s not going to work. But I do remember the Rainbow Coalition. I remember interesting stories about that. I was working security -- oh. (laughs) I’ll tell you, when I first joined the party, Chairman Fred wasn’t there. When he got out, I happened to be in headquarters, in party headquarters, 2350 West Madison, sitting at the top of the steps. And I guess Fred and Che and different people were in the back in a meeting. [00:44:00] But I was to be there at a certain time. So, I wasn’t there when he got there, but when they come out of this meeting, he sees me. And he goes -- he hadn’t seen me before. Because of the way I look, he goes, “Power to the people.” He asked me was I in the Young Lords. That’s the first thing he asked me. (audio cuts out) “Are you a Young Lord?” I said, “No.” Then he said, “Are you a Young Patriot?” And I was offended, I will admit. This if Fred Hampton. This is chairman of the Illinois chapter. This is the first time I saw him. I already held him in awe. JJ: You had already knew him. DL: I already knew who he was. JJ: You’d seen him. DL: I believe it was Mr. Che who said, “That’s a Black Panther there.” Because, you know, [they had Che, this is a Black Panther?]. He said, “Oh, all right, Brother.” I mean, that was it. That was, again, Che verifying my race card, I guess. He let him know I was from the South Side. [00:45:00] JJ: Being light skinned, also. DL: As well you know, not always easy being green, brother. 23 �JJ: So growing up actually, it was a blessing or -- at times I had situations where [you just mentioned?], but it was a blessing also because I could kind of see from other angles. How was it for you? DL: This is the thing, I never -- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) the incidents that -- DL: I think that it has been an issue with me my whole life. I’m 59. I’ll be 60 this time next year, and it’s still an issue. JJ: And you said (inaudible) it never goes away. DL: Right, it never goes away. And [00:46:00] it is what it is. I know how I look. When I was younger, it was very painful. It was not fun at all. It was -- people could be very -- say very mean things because, see I never tried -- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) DL: Yeah. Well, see, the thing is I never tried to go anywhere else. The concept of what they used to call passing or whatever, that just was never even -- I never even considered that. It wasn’t like, “Oh, I’ll just go over here and be with Todd and Brandon.” I just never even thought to do that. And because I never thought to do that, when people would even suggest things like that to me, I found that very hurtful. You have to remember, starting to be involved in the struggle when I was in seventh grade -- what are you, 11, 12 years old? [00:47:00] So, I was already conscious when I was a kid. So, I became very aware of race and issues of race and everything and being called out of who I was or suggested that I should go do this, that, and the other when I was already committed not only being who I am -- I’m just Black to me, just light skinned Black person. So, when 24 �people would imply that you would feel differently about injustices and about things that were aimed at Black people that somehow you would feel different because even though, “Yeah, we know you’re Black, but you’re real light, so maybe you feel differently about it.” I didn’t feel any differently about it. I didn’t feel less oppressed or [00:48:00] less anger at the people who did these things because I share some complexion traits. My momma didn’t oppress me, but I didn’t associate my mother with the behavior of white people in general. I mean, I knew that wasn’t the behavior of white people in general because I was able to observe their behavior, you know, in life. I was able to see it. I was able to see how, yeah, sure, I could go places sometimes and maybe people would not -- I’ll be the first to admit, sure, they didn’t know me. But I was always with other people who were browner. So, maybe they weren’t reacting to just me, but they were reacting to the presence of Black folks then. So, I was still privy to that constantly, seeing their behavior and how they would treat people. And I never felt [00:49:00] like I had some sort of dispensation from that. “Well, you’re a white man.” That would really irritate me when people would come with that. JJ: They used to call me Casper the Friendly [Ghost?]. DL: I can only imagine. (laughter) See, I remember exactly how you looked in 1969, believe it or not. You were a little smaller then, but I remember. Yeah, you were a little smaller then. But I remember. Like I said, I remember you and Chairman Fred embracing on the -- it was either you and Fred or you and Che embracing on the stage. JJ: On the stage, where? 25 �DL: It was at Grant Park. It was at Grant Park. JJ: Oh, I remember that. They had to take Che out of there because they had a warrant. DL: See, I wasn’t privy to all that, but I don’t doubt it. JJ: They stopped us on Lake Shore Drive. Did Fred (inaudible) get rid of him (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). [00:50:00] DL: Quickly, get him out of here, before the pigs get him. I remember, like I said, my first encounter with Chairman Fred. Just so you know, when he asked was I a Young Lord -- hey, it’s always been cool if people thought I was Puerto Rican because to me, Puerto Ricans are children of the Diaspora. But I wasn’t trying to be confused with a Young Patriot. But speaking of Young Patriots, again, I was sitting at the top of the steps at headquarters, working security, 16, I had my thing. And the door opens downstairs and here comes a white man and a white woman. And the white man has got on a denim jacket with the Confederate flag on it. So, I was like, “Whoa, [00:51:00] hold it right there man.” I didn’t shoot him. But I’m like, “Stay right where you are.” I remember so clearly he said -- I swear he said, “Howdy.” He said, “My name is Preacherman Donald Fesperman and this is my wife, Darlene. I’m here to see Chairman Fred.” (laughter) I wasn’t right -- I knew that we had these different coalitions with different groups, but I had never actually seen any Young Patriots before. I had seen their Rising Up Angry newspaper. So, I saw some of the guys with the black leather jackets. I guess they called them greasers back then or something, [Mike James?]. Was that his name? Mike James. 26 �JJ: Yeah, Mike James went with the greasers. DL: Right. I saw some of their pictures, but I had not [00:52:00] -- remember this is 2350 West Madison. These were hillbillies, and I had never seen them before. I hadn’t seen Slim Coleman yet. Eventually I met Slim Coleman and I eventually met most of these folks just tangibly. I mean, I was rank and file. It wasn’t like they were coming to see me. But I met some of these people. I remember chairman or whoever coming and saying, “Oh yeah, let him up.” “Okay, if you say so.” So, he goes on by and he’s got a big old Confederate flag there. I read their literature, somewhat after the fact. I read some of their literature. And again, I got it. I wasn’t overly comfortable, but I got it. You know what I’m saying. I was very comfortable. I was comfortable -- JJ: You got it, but some other people were negative. [00:53:00] DL: With the -- well, I was comfortable with the Young Lords. I was comfortable with peoples of color. I was not particularly comfortable with the coalitions with other folks. But that was contrary to party philosophy and party intent. I just wasn’t entirely comfortable with it. But that’s part of the party. Intellectually, I could get it. I got it intellectually. I remember going to be SDS -- JJ: Emotionally you had a problem with it. DL: I emotionally had a few problems with it. I remember going to the SDS convention when they had it at the -- not the amphitheater -- the place that they tore down. What was the place that they tore down on State Street? [00:54:00] JJ: Coliseum. 27 �DL: The Coliseum. They had the SDS convention there, and I went down there to sell Panther papers, which was great because it was zillions of folks. And you could sell the whole stack of papers. But I remember, now here’s all the -- what we called the white mother country radicals. That was terminology. JJ: That was Eldridge Cleaver, that was (inaudible). DL: Yeah, maybe it was -- right. Again, like I said, coming from Hyde Park, I come from a diverse community. So, I wasn’t -- I had met white folks that were okay with me. That would be (inaudible) my mother. But I told you, my mother’s always a separate entity to me. So, it wasn’t like -- I knew these -- it’s not like I looked at these folks like they were the enemy necessarily, but [00:55:00] I also just wasn’t entirely comfortable. I’m most comfortable around people of color. I just am. That’s just the way it is. I don’t mean to no harm. I just am. JJ: Did you see the Young Lords a lot or were they -- DL: I didn’t see them a whole lot. I saw them sometimes. I had a friend in -- because I got kicked out of Hales and I ended up at Kenwood. And there was a Puerto Rican brother that went to -- I can’t remember his name -- that went to Kenwood, that had one of the YLP buttons. I know that’s a different -- the fist with the rifle. JJ: That was our button. DL: That was your button. “Tengo Puerto Rico en mi corazón”? “I have Puerto Rico in my heart.” Is that it? JJ: YLP was the next year, the following year. It was created in Chicago. Everything was created in Chicago. DL: Okay. But he had a button that said -- I remember that button. [00:56:00] 28 �JJ: The purple berets and we had the buttons. DL: Right. Now, that, I remember. I remember I would see members of the Young Lords, like when we would occasionally go to a rally on the North Side, I would see them. Again, I had a whole different -- a very comfortable affinity there. That was cool. Purple berets -- and of course, in literature, I would see the brown berets in California, the Chicanos with the brown -- see, I was cool with that. It was a little hard for me to deal with the whole Confederate flag thing with that. And it’s funny. The thing with the greasers, the Mike James folks, [00:57:00] I want to say I was in the party when I did this, but it may have been the year before I joined the party. At 95th and Throop, there’s a Catholic girls school called Longwood Academy. It’s a girls school. And they were having some problems. It was majority white, but they were having a problem with the Black girls being harassed when they got out of school. This was back in maybe ’68. And they were at the bus stops up there and they were bothering them. And I put a rifle in a guitar case and went up to the bus stop. I was 15, 16 years old, whatever. If it was in ’68 I was 15. I was already in high school. I actually went up there with this guitar case because I thought they were actually attacking them. [00:58:00] I took a rifle up there. I was going to protect those sisters up there at the bus stop. So, that’s kind of where my head was at. I remember that the people that were supposedly bothering them -- and I saw some of them -looked like the guys that Mike James was working with -- they were all these white boys with black leather jackets and grease in their hair. JJ: The white gangs were dressed like that, that’s (inaudible) the greaser [name?]. 29 �DL: Yeah. So I saw some of them up there. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) but they were being evicted too, (inaudible) their homes too. DL: But I’d say that the -- JJ: So, was there -- you were glad that Mike James was working with those other guys? DL: Look, I’m not mad at none of them, okay? Of course, now -- JJ: They did admit that they were a little racist. DL: Sure. And of course now, in retrospect, [00:59:00] again, being in the Black Panther Party was one of the more pivotal or important parts of my life. I think that the Panther Party, as my comrades have said earlier, is one of the most important organizations that has ever existed. The fact that J. Edgar Hoover called us the most dangerous threat to the security of America is one of the greatest compliments that we could ever get. America was founded on the genocide of the Indian and the enslavement of the African. It’s not right and it’s not likely to ever be right because it’s founded on something that’s incorrect. This very system, the very government, it’s founded on something that’s incorrect. The only institutions in this country that were designed specifically with Black people in mind has been chattel slavery and penitentiaries. So, for us to have been a group [01:00:00] that fought against that and the very nature of what runs this country, that made us extremely important. Maybe because of our age, we probably were not overwhelmed by the risks we were taking because I don’t think that we really comprehended what we were up against. Of course, the 30 �COINTEL Program and the 24/7 battle against us. We would occasionally sleep and our enemy never sleeps. And that’s something that has continued until today. [01:01:00] We get caught sleeping. They’re always awake. That’s just the way it is. Battles in the future have to be fought by -- our battles now and in the future have to be fought by people that always have someone that’s awake. You just have to sleep in shifts, but somebody always has to be awake. JJ: You mentioned penitentiary. Did you ever have any problems with courts or anything like that? DL: No. I did get arrested with a pistol. I’ve carried a pistol almost every day since I was 16 years old. And as you might know, in 1982, I was able to get on the Chicago Police Department. I was a policeman for 26 years. JJ: Oh, I didn’t know that. DL: Yeah. Just as I am. People think that going to the police [01:02:00] academy was like going back to high school. But that’s -- JJ: What station? DL: I was in the tactical unit. Well, I went to 71st and Cottage Grove in patrol. I was in uniform for a year and then I was in plain clothes after that. I worked an allBlack district, which was fantastic. Then I made detective in ’96 and all I dealt with was shootings and murders. I was a violent crimes detective. So, I say unequivocally that the system is not our friend. So now, I do seminars for Black Star Project keeping our children out of the just-us system because it is the justus system. I never had any illusions that I was changing the system. I liked the idea of the community being represented. Everything that’s in our community, we 31 �should be represented, not just superficially but realistically. [01:03:00] So, I never represented the police department as a community. I represented the community in my behavior. That’s another whole topic. JJ: What years were you a police officer? DL: Oh, ’82 to 2008. JJ: Oh, this is later. DL: Oh, yeah. I was 30 years old when I got on the police department. I was in the party 16 to like 19. JJ: During that period, there were no [problems in areas?] (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). DL: Oh sure. That was the reason that I even ended up doing that was because Howard Saffold was on the radio one day making an appeal saying that we need brothers and sisters to take this job because we need to be represented in these cars in the community. The police aren’t going away. Black Panther Party always espoused community control over the police. [01:04:00] Well, what better control is it than to be it? They can’t make you be a pig. If that’s how you’re going to be, that’s how you’re going to be. They can’t order you to do pig things. If that’s your methodology, that’s what you’re going to do. I was a Panther on the police department, just like I am now. I didn’t miss a beat and I didn’t change. It is what it is. Did they know all that? Did they ask me? Did they interview me? No, they’re not that sophisticated. I mean, at a certain point, they figure out how your behavior is, that you’re not -- again, I came on at the time right when Harold 32 �Washington was being elected. It was shortly before his election. I worked in an almost exclusively Black district. JJ: You know (inaudible) campaign, the Young Lords worked on his campaign. They were the first Latino group to endorse him and the first Latino rally was held by former Young Lords, [01:05:00] so-called former Young Lords. DL: So-called former. You never really totally stopped. JJ: In Chicago, we never quit the Young Lords. DL: Just like there will always be Panthers. JJ: But in fact that was Northside Hispanic Coordinator, (inaudible) use the term “Hispanic” anymore, because I ran for alderman too for a while. DL: I remember that. JJ: You remember that? DL: I do remember that in 1980, ’83 maybe, ’82, ’83, ’84. JJ: Actually -- DL: Oh, back then when he ran because Harold was elected in ’83. JJ: I turned myself in exactly to the day of Fred Hamptons -- the anniversary of his death. DL: December 4th. JJ: December 4th in ’72. And I went and did my year. And as soon as I came out, we announced that I was running for alderman. In fact, because we had that in mind [from the beginning?]. [01:06:00] DL: Shall I give some last thoughts? 33 �JJ: And then after that, the Harold Washington campaign came. We worked on that. So, we haven’t really stopped working. It’s just we haven’t talked about (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). In fact -- DL: Is that still running? JJ: Yeah, (overlapping dialogue; inaudible), yeah, [what are some final thoughts?]? DL: Well, final thoughts is (audio cuts out) Black Panther Party will absolutely remain one of the most significant organizations in the history of our struggle here in America. We didn’t cover all of the bases. We covered most of them. We had social programs. We had political education. And also, we had military objectives as well, or a military element, meaning. And I think that’s very significant. That was the appeal of the party to me. I don’t think that there’s been anything like it since. There’s always been [01:07:00] resistance. But the idea of -- as Fanon says, I’m not quoting is word for word, “True freedom for the slave comes when he kills the slave master.” Now you can kill them metaphorically, but you can also kill them literally. And the audacity of us to suggest that, yes, if you try to harm us, we will actually fight back and we will take out your soldiers as you try to take out ours. That was a big deal, which is why [01:08:00] every force of the government available was mustered to try to destroy that, to even destroy that as a concept because to this day, that remains the most dangerous of concepts, that the lightbulb will go off and the those people who are oppressed will actually fight back against their oppressors. That’s some dangerous stuff. That’s my final words on that. 34 �END OF VIDEO FILE 35 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7d6ae2e651494a21d876b7ed8ca8e9e8.mp4 081b9323d5c31b5ffa6f1246024dcb92 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry David Lemieux vídeo entrevista y biografía Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Afro-Americanos--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Relaciones policía-comunidad--Illinois--Chicago Partido Pantera Negra. Illinois Capítulo Relaciones raciales Racismo--Estados Unidos Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Lemieux_David Title A name given to the resource David Lemieux video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lemieux, David Description An account of the resource David (pronounced "Daveed") Lemieux joined the Illinois Chapter of the Black Panther Party in the spring of 1969. At age 16, he was the second youngest member of that Chapter. He was a "rank and file" member and functioned in all BPP activities including the Free Breakfast for Children Program and the dissemination of the Black Panther newspaper. As a member of the Education Cadre, he was constantly engaged with "speaking" the mission and purpose of the Black Panther Party. He remained active with the BPP into the early 70s. In 1982, after consultation with other members of the activist community, David joined the Chicago Police Department and began a 26 year career where he was able to use his office and authority as a vehicle to serve the people. Currently, David Lemieux gives seminars facilitated by Chicago's Black Star Project entitled "Keeping OUR children out of the 'Just US' System" and speaks locally and nationally on the role of peace officers serving the community through the justice system. He is active with the Chicago Black Panther History Project and other efforts committed to preservation, education and reclamation of the true history of our struggle. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) African Americans--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Police-community relations--Illinois--Chicago Black Panther Party. Illinois Chapter Race relations Racism--United States Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-07-15 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/88f9e413794ca2002c871442403e9a39.pdf 1f92052a6d960b566cf95e3586be8fd9 PDF Text Text -bravery and human kindness in risking their lives to save Jewish people in the Netherlands. It lli but one of several awards the Termaats have received over the years. "We except these awards with reservations and only in the name of I Celltiaued .... , ... 14 all the men and women who served in the re· sistance," Terrnaat said. Today the Termaa1s live a peaceful retirement. They insist that their lives arc not lives of bravery and valor, but lives of doing what had to be done. DAVID MANDU. For evt:ry person that was saved by the resistance and people likt! rher Termaa1s, 1housands of othc:rs - mos1ly Jt!ws - became vic1ims of the · Germans. In I 944, the 15-yearold Mandel and his Czt:choslovaldan family - his parc:nts, brothc:rs and sisters, grandparents, and aun1s, uncles and cousins was forced from its home by 1he Nazis and taken to Auschwilz, a nolorious concentra1ion camp. Mandc:I, his brother John, and facher Isaac were "chOOSt!n" by SS guards to work . Mandel, separated from his facher and bro1her, slavt:d umkr brulal corn.li1ions in a coal tnillt:. As bruial as 1he conditions wi:rc, the duly saved tht! lives of Mandel, and his fathc:r and brother. All other members of his family - immediate and extended - were gassed and cremated on the same day. In January, 1945 as the Rus.sian army closed in on the Nazis, thousands of prisoners wc:rt: forced lO march in the snow back coward Germany, as che Nazis auempced hide the: evidence of 1heir atroci1ies. Mandel escaped one night during che n~rch and managed to --- survive 1hc: cold and the pursuing SS men. Mandel managed to find his bro1hc:r and father, in poor health, but still alive. "Tm mt!rdy one of the fortunate fow who have served and are now able to carry on and remind tht! world of 1he gross injustices of lhe war," a !earful Mandel said. After recuperating, Mandel and tht! survivors of his family, came 10 the U.S. They seuled "•in Grand Rapids in the: late I 940's whert: Mandel began to work for William Klc:in, then a single! 1:!t:n's clo1hing store. He worked chert: m.my years, a11d now owns chi: business that has several Grand Rapids locations. Da\·id said his survival and his suixcss in this country is his own revenge again:.! those who pcrsecutell him and lus pcopk, though al timl!s 1he pain of his memories are still unbearable. Boch Mandel and tht! Termaacs havc: uScd their 1raumatic pasts to help peopk understand the horror of 1he Holocaust and to slop his1ory fro~ repealing tha1 horrible eve111. For tht! pas! three years chey have served as special gucs1 speakc:rs in a GVSU poli1ical sciencc: class 1i1lt:d .. Human Aggression and Cooperation ." The award ceremony was set also 10 note 1he Dec. 7 anniversary of tht! bombing of Pearl Habor. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Adriana B. and Peter N. Termaat collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Termaat, Adriana B. (Schuurman) Termaat, Peter N. Description An account of the resource Collection contains genealogical, personal, and family papers and photographs documenting the lives and interests of Adriana and Peter Termaat. The bulk of the materials are related to family history and genealogical research carried out by the Termaats, including research notes and materials about places in the Netherlands that were significant to the Termaat and Schuurman families, such as the city of Alkmaar. Other materials in the collection are related to the Termaats' experiences on the eve of and during the Second World War, especially the German occupation of the Netherlands and the Termaats' participation in organized resistance to the Nazis. Also included are materials that document the family's post-war life in the United States, including their public efforts to recognize, commemorate, and honor people and events significant to World War II. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1869 - 2012 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/719">Adriana B. and Peter N. Termaat collection, RHC-144</a> Subject The topic of the resource Netherlands Netherlands--History--German occupation, 1940-1945 World War, 1939-1945 World War, 1939-1945 -- Underground movements -- Netherlands Dutch Dutch Americans Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-144 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Text Image Type The nature or genre of the resource application/pdf image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng nl Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-144_Termaat_NWS_David-Mandel Title A name given to the resource David Mandel Description An account of the resource Newspaper article about David Mandel, a Jewish man who escaped from a Nazi prison march, eventually settling in Grand Rapids, Michigan. Subject The topic of the resource World War, 1939-1945 -- Jews -- Rescue Holocaust, Jewish (1939-1945) -- Europe Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/719">Adriana B. and Peter N. Termaat collection (RHC-144)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1fc57ca7e485cf48c5d247a2e59dfb5c.pdf 5894cb33c5e2f0af0ed0054e254b1abf PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: David Mojica Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 1/22/2012 Biography and Description David Mojica is a very important, unsung hero in the history of Puerto Ricans in Chicago. He has never received honors nor has never been paid for the work that he continues to do daily for the common folk. Yet for many years, he has volunteered his services in Humboldt Park. Mr. Mojica has been the head of the Cocineros union for many years, helping to provide jobs and distributing Puerto Rican pride flags and shirts, and good tasting fast food to the entire community. The Cocineros de Humbolt Park have sponsored their own events that include live bands, speakers, and other entertainment. Mr. Mojica has also been able to keep the Cocineros together while protecting their rights to sell in the park. Mr. Mojica’s activism extends back to the 1960s. Right after the Division Street Riots in 1966, he was active with several community groups in Humboldt Park with whom the Young Lords collaborated. Mr. Mojica was also one of the primary Puerto Rican community workers that helped to elect Harold Washington, during his first bid for mayor. He volunteered every day at the Fullerton Ave. near Western Ave. in the “Washington for Mayor” office. Mr. Mojica’s work included distributing flyers and posters, identifying registered voters, phone canvassing, and “Get out the Vote” work at the precinct level. Mr. Mojica was also a Young Lord who helped to organize the first Hispano rally for Harold Washington at North West Hall in 1982, and the victory rally at Humboldt Park during the first official Mayor’s Neighborhood Festival where over 100,000 Puerto Ricans attended. �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: Okay, (Spanish) [00:00:00 - 00:00:03]. What’s your name? DAVID MOJICA: David Mojica. JJ: David Mojica. DM: Yeah. JJ: (Spanish) [00:00:07 - 00:00:10] -- well, what kind of work do you do? DM: I’m working for the Cocineros Unidos of Humboldt Park. JJ: Cocineros Unidos, the kitchen -- what do you call them? DM: It’s the group of concessionaires and they are located at Humboldt Park. JJ: Okay, and what do you do there? DM: I administrate them. I make sure that everything is in place and we’re under the contract with the park district. JJ: (Spanish) [00:00:47]? DM: Usually, we sell (Spanish) [00:00:53 - 00:00:58]. (laughs) It’s a Puerto Rican kitchen, I could say. And I’ve been working with them for at least for 10 years. I used to -- JJ: (Spanish) [00:01:13 - 00:01:17]? DM: Well, we have a concessionaire that sells concess-souvenirs. And some others, they have places in different places of the park and they sell Puerto Rican food. Also, there’s a concessionaire of tacos, hot dogs, street corn. Everything, a little of everything. 1 �JJ: What is your connection? I mean, how did -- to the -- let’s say to the Young Lords, I mean? What is your connection to that? DM: [00:02:00] Well, I was working with the Harold Washington campaign and I met José Jiménez and we got -- we get a -- we start a friendship. And to now, we’ve been working for the community. JJ: Okay. (Spanish) [00:02:27]. DM: (Spanish) [00:00:29]. JJ: (Spanish) [00:00:30]. So you were in Jersey City? DM: Jersey City. I stood in Jersey City for -- to 1960- ’63. I came back in ’63 to Chicago. And then I started -- I came with my family. I had a wife and we start from there. (break in audio) M: [00:03:00] JJ: Okay. David Mojica, can you -- (Spanish) [00:03:07 - 00:03:15]? DM: (Spanish) [00:03:16] -- JJ: The names (Spanish) [00:03:20] in there. DM: Oh. It is about my father. He couldn’t find a job over there and it was a bad situation. That’s why we came to New Jersey and Jersey City, in Jersey City. And he start working there as a chef. And I used to work with him in there and at the, you know, (Spanish) [00:03:49] -- JJ: (Spanish) [00:03:51] -- DM: -- in dish washers (laughs) is what we call them (Spanish) [00:03:57]. It sound like we [00:04:00] are recording records. So I stayed there for quite a while but I 2 �got married, you know, or I got together with my wife. And I came to Pue- -- to Chicago in six-- in 1963 to the -- to Wicker Park area. And I met a lot of people, a lot of Puerto Rican. There was so many that the -- Wicker Park is so, it was all Puerto Rican, mostly. And we had everything: bodega, grocery stores, restaurants, everything in the Richard Street in the area of Le Moyne. Not Le Moyne, Hoyne and Division. All this area, there was a theater called [00:05:00] San Juan Theater which is gone because it changed, the neighborhood changed. And I saw a lot of people, a lot of young people, getting involved in gangs like the Young Sinner [sic], Latin Kings, you name it. (laughs) But they got together -they used to get together with us and we used to tell them that they was not -- it was not good to get involved in gangs or anything, you know? So I think that most of the guys that were involved later, they changed their mind and start working for the community, for the people in the community. (coughs) JJ: And what do you think [00:06:00] was the reason that they were getting -- (break in audio) JJ: Why do you think? Why do you think they -- before we -- (break in audio) DM: There was nothing else to do. There was not -- they were not giving jobs to -- for youth. And I think there was nothing else to do so they would like to start hanging out and fighting. I believe they start fighting with the older -- what do you call the -- like the Italians, the European. Because they -- every time they see somebody in the area, they kicked (laughs) somebody’s butt. And they start getting together to go and fight with them but see, the thing is [00:07:00] that they 3 �were not using what they using now. They used to fight with the fists, not the -no -- none of them had guns, you know. And to defend the people that were in the area. JJ: And what places did you work at? I mean, what types of jobs did you work? DM: I worked with (inaudible) machines, punch press machines, bicycle company like Schwinn bicycle. Sani company, I worked for Sani. Roland company was part of the Sani’s company. [00:08:00] I work at the shop at O’Hare field. You know, when they were giving food to the -- for the planes. I worked there. And then, I start -- in ’68, I start working with a -- in a bar and make new friends. And then, I stared getting together with the -- with guys that winning the -- like in ’66. You know, they got involved in the helping, you know, making organization like SACC. And -- JJ: SACC was a -- DM: A community group. A Spanish Action Committee [sic]. JJ: Spanish Action Committee. DM: Yeah, that’s after -- that was formed after the riot in [00:09:00] ’66. JJ: So then -- okay. And what was that -- DM: They were doing -- they were fighting for jobs. They were fighting for jobs because there was nobody -- they would not hire anybody in -- on the government or maybe for a -- for the Cook Country or for the welfare [public aid?]. There was nobody in there. They need Spanish-speaking so we’re fighting. Even though I remember an issue that a policeman had to be 5’9” (laughs) before he can get hired to be a policeman. So we -- there was a lot of 4 �things that was change during those days. And I know I could see a cop, you know, he’s not even five foot and (inaudible) and [00:10:00] he’s doing the work, too. So a lot of thing was change. JJ: So I’m going to ask you, so you were working with SACC. But then, you had a group, too, right? I mean -- DM: Yeah. We form a group in 1967 during a fire on Milwaukee Avenue which there was eight people died including children, I don’t know, four children and other people. And they didn’t have no -- they didn’t have no place, they didn’t have no clothing, they didn’t have no food. So we start working with them then from -while we were organizing the group, we start working with them. And we wanted a -- to do a shelter. It never come true but [00:11:00] we kept the organization working. And later on, we had a -- we met other people like with the [CEDA?] program, we had some slot. That’s when I met José Jiménez and we was -- start working together and working in the community. JJ: And they had some slots from CEDA. DM: CEDA, CEDA, yeah. JJ: CEDA? DM: CEDA, that was the government, the federal government. And they were doing -- (break in audio) JJ: Okay. DM: I heard that they were -- they need somebody at the Harold campaign headquarters on Fullerton [00:12:00] and they need somebody and they want -- 5 �and I need a job. So I got involve and they were put me 100 dollars a week. And I used to work in the office, answer the phone, getting volunteers and then -JJ: So you got involved and what happened? I’m sorry. What did you get involved in? Go ahead. DM: In the campaign. There were some Young Lords working there. That’s when I met a lot of the guys and they were working for the community. They were working the campaign all the way. JJ: What did you do at the campaign? Was the campaign for Harold Washington, the mayor? DM: For Harold, for Harold Washington. For mayor. JJ: What did you do? DM: I used to answer phone. I used to answering the phone [00:13:00] and at night, we used to work canvassing and work precinct every day. (break in audio) DM: Well, one of the reason, I like the guy, I like the guy. So I said, “Well, let’s help him out.” No for the money. I needed money, but it helped me out to do so I can work all the way with the campaign. And we make it. JJ: How did you see Harold Washington helping you? Helping you, you know what I’m saying? Helping what you were doing? Because you were working with the community. How did you -- how did [00:14:00] you see him helping with his campaign? What did it -- what would it do for you? DM: Oh. Well, I got a lot of people -- when they were asking for a resume, I got a lot - lots of people there on, you know, on getting the jobs. And one of those guys 6 �was Luiz Gutiérrez. He got a -- I took the resume even though I told him I need somebody to write down mine. And he say, “Well, I help you out.” Which so we work together in getting those. I took him to downtown and he got the job. He’s doing fine [00:15:00] in Washington now. JJ: he’s a cop? What kind of -- DM: And he work -- he was one of the guys that I was -- I had in Harold campaign. I had six precinct that I work in. One of those precinct was Luiz Gutiérrez. He ran it. JJ: (inaudible) [00:15:30] -- (break in audio) DM: We not do it (laughs). We not communicating now but you know. JJ: What do you want -- what do you think I should talk more about -- okay. Okay. You came in ’63, right? DM: Right. JJ: Okay, so in ’63, the Young Lords started in [00:16:00] 19-- it was a gang in 1959, but as a political group, they started in 1968. So did you know anything about the Young Lords at that time? DM: Oh yeah. I used to talk about the Young Lords. They was-- they were a gang but then, they -- JJ: So what did you know when they were a gang? What did you hear back then? DM: They found a headquarters, a church, they had a church where they did a program there for the people. So they change from gang, they changed to work for the community so -- 7 �JJ: So did you hear about them when they were a gang? DM: I hear when -- they were a gang but I never hear anything, what do you call it, bad about them. I know they was a gang [00:17:00] but everybody had a gang (laughs) just to fight somebody that don’t like them so there was nothing bad about that. I thought maybe they were help -- they were doing some fighting because they couldn’t protect themself. JJ: So then you heard they changed into a community group and then how did you feel as a Puerto Rican? How did you feel with these -- DM: Well, I think was a great move because the community needed help. Because there was so many things that need to be corrected. And like when CEDA workers -- CEDA slots started, they start giving people [00:18:00] jobs working for help groups, police relation, everything. So everybody started working, organizing and get jobs. Get jobs. JJ: When you say you were organizing, what, for example, you mentioned you were working with SACC. What did organizing mean? What did they -- how did they organize? DM: Well, first, they had a training. They had a training of different things. Health, politic relation, education, and they used to train people. We used to train people and they -- a lot of them got together. Even though with the politics, [00:19:00] that a lot of people got involved in politics. Because after the training, they start preaching what they -- what was the training for. So it was good for the community because they learn something and then, they start helping others. JJ: You had a group, too. What was the name of your group? 8 �(break in audio) M3: -- pretend that I just turned on the camera. Go ahead. JJ: You had a group. DM: Yeah. JJ: So what was it called and what did they do? What did they do? DM: People’s Association for Community Action. And we used to have different committees. We -- one -- I was working with the public aid committee. We used to get people together and [00:20:00] find out what was the problem. And we used to call the representative at the public aid office. And we used to tell them what was wrong because a lot of people used -- they used to take them off the program. And a lot of people, they didn’t receive checks and we didn’t know why. But (laughs) there was a lot of things going on so we started working with the -with people inside the office and we form some committees there in different office. And we communicate with the -- every time we had a problem with somebody, we try [00:21:00] to make sure that they help the people and they take care of the problem. And if I -- if there is any people used to come in and ask for help. So we -- the main thing was that we have different committee to work on it. JJ: You had different committees? DM: We had different committee like police relation, (Spanish) [00:21:34]. JJ: How many organizations and did you guys work together? How many different organizations -- DM: Oh, we had, we had -- 9 �JJ: And what were they? What were they? DM: We work with ABC, work with UCA (sic), United for Community Action. We work for -- [00:22:00] we had a organization called United Front. It sound like (laughter) a terrorist group but they were not. And SACCs, Spanish Action Committee. Well, I -- there were so many, I don’t recall right now. JJ: Did these groups ever work with the Young Lords? DM: Yeah, most of them. They used to got together when there was something going on about a march or jobs or whatever. They -- everybody used to get together. JJ: Marching. So then, this was about -- DM: Organizing the community, yeah. JJ: So there were a lot of marches at that time? DM: Oh, you name it. There was a lot of crimes, a lot of killings from different [00:23:00] groups. Like a guy got shot and they don’t know why he was shot, (laughs) -- JJ: Now, who shot him? DM: -- so -- but the -- there was so much police brutality at that time. JJ: Oh, the police were -- DM: Yeah. JJ: Okay. So there was police brutality and these groups were marching or...? DM: Against them. Yeah, against the problem, against, you know. JJ: What other problems besides police brutality were going on at that time? DM: Jobs, welfare, health. There was no clinic. I -- at that time in Wicker Park, there used to be one clinic. That’s all. And the people -- the people had no insurance 10 �or anything. [00:24:00] And at that time, they don’t -- a lot of people don’t know about the Cook County hospital (laughs) so it’s, you know. So when this happened, every -- a lot of people was disoriented. And it need to be that thing was organized. So everybody was organizing. JJ: (coughs) Pardon. DM: I went there to see the project they were doing and my sister used to live a block away on Walton close to Grace. And they -- the general were -- they had different programs there. JJ: [00:25:00] So what kind of programs did they have? Do you remember or...? DM: Wood painting, teaching kids how to paint. Make murals. And they had a -- they had a answering service that people used to go there and then they’d call and they’d write down their -- whatever they need. So they were active at that time. They were really active in the community. JJ: And this was not in Lincoln Park. Where was this at? DM: Uptown. JJ: So they were up -- went from Lincoln Park to Uptown, the Young Lords? DM: Uptown. Yeah, that was in Grace and Walton? JJ: Right. DM: Close to the -- to Wrigley Field. So that’s mainly Lincoln Park, no? JJ: Okay. So [00:26:00] you heard about the Young Lords when they were in Lincoln Park and also in Lake View in Uptown. DM: Right. 11 �JJ: And you knew the Young Lords when they were a gang. So I mean, what -- you mentioned that -- so you -- so what was your feeling? Why did you -- your involvement in the community? What’s the reason that you were involved in the community? DM: Like I say before, I need to help. I need to help the people because I know the struggle they were going through. There was -- they had big families, they don’t have a place where to stay. And whoever will help the community, I was with them. I gave them credit for that. [00:27:00] So I got involved with the -- with them and to see what they really -- what they really need. JJ: And you first started getting involved so how many years have you been involved in the -- DM: Community? Oof. I’ve been in -- since 1966 throughout the ’90s. I was working very, very active in the community. But then, I start getting sick and I couldn’t participate like I wanted to so I had to step out. And -- JJ: And you [00:28:00] lived in what area mostly? DM: Humboldt Park. In the Humboldt Park area. Yeah. JJ: In the Humboldt Park area? And what kind of changes have been going on in that area? Since you came to Chicago in 1963, what kind of changes -- DM: It was bad. JJ: Can you explain what -- the whole changes or...? DM: Well, now they -- JJ: (Spanish) [00:28:19] -- 12 �DM: The Wicker Park, Wicker Park is still there. But you can hardly see Spanish speaking there or Puerto Ricans. They are not -- the neighborhood changed completely. Everybody sold the house, the place. They sold the house for maybe 35-, 15,000 and now, you cannot (laughs) -- it’s almost a million dollar for an apartment. So it’s -- there [00:29:00] are a lot of changes and they -- I -- I don’t see a lot of groups now. Groups, the groups now, what they do is trying to survive with the paying their electricity, pay the bills to the people working in that. So that’s what they make the -- like, to make money for paying the -- just staying there, you know. But they not too involved in training. They not training people like the -- where we used to do. So there’s a lot of changes now. And it’s tough because I think that [00:30:00] in order for you to do a good job in the community, you have to deal with the people. You have to know people, you have to know what they -- their problems are, and work with them. Trying to teach them what you know and how to go about in resolving those problems. (break in audio) JJ: Okay, go ahead. DM: There’s no help for the people that need the shelter. Right now, we need a shelter bad. Some shelter that -- in those shelters, if somebody is in a shelter, at maybe five o’clock in the morning or four o’clock in the morning, they have to leave. [00:31:00] Even though you got family and you have to leave and come back or the same day maybe at six o’clock so you could get a place where to stay. And it’s bad because you need something that could provide some good assistance for the people that needs a place where to stay. 13 �JJ: And why do we need so many shelters? Because before, we didn’t have a need for shelters. DM: We need a big place. We need -- JJ: Before, we didn’t have to. Why do we need shelters now? DM: Because people can’t find no jobs, people cannot afford to pay an apartment. The rent is so high that a lot of people can’t afford it. They get kicked out from one place to another [00:32:00] and we need help. I mean, these people need help. JJ: So how -- why do you think that happened? That there are so many changes going on in Humboldt Park that there’s -- when you first came here, it was all full of Puerto Ricans you said. But now, that community is no longer there, right? So what do you think happened? DM: There was displacement. I mean, there was -- the economic is bad. When they were -- when we were here, a lot of people had to moved out because fires. There were a lot of fires at that time. A lot of people, a lot of people died and [00:33:00] I heard that most of the displacement was for profit. Lots of people had a building and because they could not fix it or anything, the best thing for them was to burn it and they didn’t care who was in there. They just burn it for profit. And you see Wicker Park, there were so many -- there were so many fires that if you go to Wicker Park right now, most of the building that you see are new because most of those lots were empty because there was a fire. And now, the developer came back and built new buildings, right? But none of us [00:34:00] can afford them. Because we didn’t have -- we don’t -- we not -- our kids drop 14 �out. There was a lot of drop out. A lot of people could’ve been professional right now but a lot of people can’t afford it. And they had to move someplace else. Florida, Puerto Rico, different states. And most of these same -- most of the same thing is happening all over the states. If you got money, you can survive but if you don’t got no money, you cannot live. [00:35:00] You cannot stay there. You have to move somewhere where you can afford it. So we -- we like (Spanish) [00:35:12 - 00:35:35]? JJ: (Spanish) [00:35:35 - 00:35:43]? Where are they moving to? DM: (Spanish) [00:35:45], they moving to the ghetto. (laughs) Wherever is a ghetto, there’s a community that is going down. That’s why they went -- [00:36:00] that’s why they went the ghetto to live because they cannot afford to go to a upgraded area because they not -- they not making that much money or receiving money to live there. So wherever there is a ghetto, so (laughs) that’s where they’re living. That’s why they have to go. JJ: And where are the ghettoes located now? DM: Located? JJ: Yeah, where are they at? DM: It’s going down. (laughs) JJ: It’s going where? DM: Down west. JJ: Down west? DM: Down west with the -- at the past Cicero, that’s -- that’s ghetto there. So south, down south, there’s a ghetto there. So (laughs) what can I say? 15 �JJ: Okay. Are there any [00:37:00] in the suburbs or no? DM: Suburbs? If (Spanish) [00:37:01] -- if it is a ghetto there. I mean -- JJ: But they’re going to the ghetto. DM: They go to ghetto, man. JJ: They’re not going to the (inaudible). DM: And then when I say ghetto, it’s an area that is going down. That are people -what the people don’t want, that’s where they go. Because that’s -- they can afford it. I mean, it’s -- you have to find a, I mean, a area that don’t cost too much. That there, you don’t have to pay the landlord 1,500, 2,000 dollars for an apartment? [00:38:00] You know. END OF VIDEO FILE 16 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8402785d5f8a1101e0f3db9d37d796f9.mp4 5df2c2bf3ca5dea9768a3c9168b6f77e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry David Mojica vídeo entrevista y biografía Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puertorriqueños--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Puertorriqueños--Illinois--Chicago--Vida social y costumbres Chicago (Ill.). Alcalde (1983-1987 : Washington) Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Mojica_David Title A name given to the resource David Mojica video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Mojica, David Description An account of the resource David Mojica is a very important, unsung hero in the history of Puerto Ricans in Chicago. He has volunteered his services in Humboldt Park. Mr. Mojica has been the head of the Cocineros union for many years, helping to provide jobs and distributing Puerto Rican pride flags and shirts, and good tasting fast food to the entire community. Mr. Mojica was also one of the primary Puerto Rican community workers that helped to elect Harold Washington, during his first bid for mayor. He volunteered every day at the Fullerton Ave. near Western Ave. in the “Washington for Mayor” office. Mr. Mojica’s work included distributing flyers and posters, identifying registered voters, and phone canvassing. Mr. Mojica was also a Young Lord who helped to organize the first Hispano rally for Harold Washington at North West Hall in 1982, and the victory rally at Humboldt Park during the first official Mayor’s Neighborhood Festival where over 100,000 Puerto Ricans attended. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puerto Ricans--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Puerto Ricans--Illinois--Chicago--Social life and customs Chicago (Ill.). Mayor (1983-1987 : Washington) Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-01-22 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/0dbcd9eb2f3a0905003b937456a2e1ef.mp4 e3b91bd830b4f3f8a8cdb18cff034451 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/390893e8e36e05f242f6226cee559100.pdf 26ab1abf35dae767206f34371d3c7a03 PDF Text Text William James College Interviews GV016-16 Interviewer: Barbara Roos Interviewee: David Rathbun Date: 1984 [Barbara] … talking about three things that stuck out in your mind. [Rathbun] Two or three things. I came to William James in 1981, so I didn't have much time in William James. But my first recollection: my first council meeting. I sat down in the skylight room with this group of people, most of whom I didn't know yet, and during that meeting there was a debate between Robert Mayberry and Steven Rowe in which the two men were arguing: Socrates versus Aristotle. And I thought to myself: "My God! Someone still cares about this stuff." And I remember going home and carrying on a good part of the evening about what an incredible place this must be where faculty people, instead of sitting and bickering about small, petty stuff, argued from real philosophic basis. What an incredible place. That's one of my favorite memories of William James and one of my earliest memories of William James. I also remember the ordeal of interviewing for the position here. I think my first meeting was at eight o'clock with Glenn Niemeyer and I talked to people the entire day and the entire evening and finally finished with Forrest Armstrong at one thirty the next morning. Pretty incredible ordeal. Makes a lot of sense as I got another place in retrospect. Another real strong memory in my mind, and again it’s a fairly early meeting, was in a PCC meeting in which we we're discussing the changes in the photographic curriculum. And the facility needs through [?] needs. And I remember there was a room in the basement which was in question about who ought to use it and clearly the film and video people needed for room, clearly the photography people needed the room. And Deanna and Barb said: "We will give up that room. You need more than we do." And it was a kind of generosity again I had not encountered at any other institution I had taught in. The ability to put aside one's self-interest, one’s immediate needs, in the interest of the larger program. I was impressed. I hadn't encountered that. [Barbara] Let me stop your train of thought slightly while I check everything because I couldn't [inaudible]. Let me zoom in on you a little bit and then we go on. If it’s not interrupting you too much, I would like to know why you think this was all so different. Don't answer yet because I have to get the shot… Right now, I have the shot. [Rathbun] Okay, in the past, at the Institute of Design, which is a pretty remarkable place. decisions were made on the basis of politics. They were made on the basis of narrowly defined self-interest. Your sense from beginning to end was that you better be prepared to scramble and scrap for everything you were going to get for �your program because nobody was going to give it to you. As a result, there was an attitude and the feeling among the faculty of distrust, of suspicion, people were constantly tailoring their behaviors and looking over the shoulders to make sure the right people are watching and that the wrong people one right behind them. [Rathbun] I don't recall ever sensing that at William James and I think for me it was one of the extraordinary aspects of working with a group of people that were the faculty and the last two years of William James. The sense that people really cared about what somebody else was doing. That they wanted to share and making it good. That they were willing to put time and energy and sometimes give up things that they need is in order for something else good to happen. It was not my experience at the Institute of Design it was a very different kind of faculty. People who were not very generous particularly with the resources, or with their time, with their giving to students even. [Barbara] But there must have been structural reasons for all this. What structural reasons can you analyze? [Rathbun] Well, I think one of the things that made William James such a delightful place, for faculty, was that it really was not a competitive environment in the sense that we had to compete with each other to succeed either within our programs or within the institution. The fact that we didn't have merit raises, the fact that the review process was not punitive but was rather something that was intended to help us understand each other and to grow with each other. The fact that we met weekly in faculty meetings, that we knew each other and we knew what was going on that we had some control over our destiny in this building. I think all those were important aspects of that feeling of collegiality and community. That is not that way in very many places. For me it was probably the most extraordinary teaching experience I've had the two years that William James was here. The freedom to dream, the freedom to pursue the dreams, the freedom to share your dreams with colleagues, the willingness of colleagues to dream with you, to be a little bit crazy at times when it was appropriate to be crazy. The sense that things were possible, and it that was good to pursue those possibilities. It was a feeling that pervaded this place. God knows it was no joy to come to council meetings every Friday morning. There were a number of times I would prefer to be sailing around the lake or something. But it was never really a problem to come to those meetings because we were doing something. We were making decisions. We were assuming the responsibility and we were doing a pretty damn good thing with our programs. [Barbara] Let me change the [inaudible]. Wonderful, very clear. Very clear. Very Clear! You're dark on one side your face but I like it. You know what I mean? It’s not dark, I like the naturalness. �[Rathbun] Now, I'm not sure, maybe you should ask me some questions, if you want more specific kinds of things. [Barbara] You were very specific then. I pushed a little on your work. [Rathbun] Because those are… that was the sort of thing I was thinking about saying was those two events, the room generosity from you and Diana. I don't remember the first one now. It’s a good thing you're taping this. And then just the sort of overall sense of what an incredible thing this place was. [Barbara] There are two things that I'd like to ask on the basis of what you said already. You said you taught very well and it’s not clear to me why one would teach better. I can understand why one would be happier as an individual. But why teach better? [Rathbun] If you think that being happy as an individual has nothing to do with teaching well – it has everything in the world to do with teaching well. At the Institute of Design, I never felt support particularly from colleagues or from the administration. That began to chip away and erode my commitment to the place. The more times I was worked over, the less excited I became, and the more I had to turn to purely an internal discipline to keep things going well. And I did that, but it was not with great effort. The feeling of support of collegiality, of sharing both a destiny and also shaping that destiny was absolutely vital to feeling good about teaching and being here and being with students. [Barbara] Were students different? We just have a different breed of students here. [Rathbun] Its apples and oranges. It's difficult to compare. We're talking on one hand about a very expensive private school in Chicago that draws a national constituency of generally wealthy and well-educated students. As opposed to a state college that draws essentially from one area within the state. But the differences I think ultimately are sort of superficial. They have remedies. The biggest difference was simply one of experience and visual literacy Those kids in Chicago have seen a lot and the kids initially here haven't seen very much. Even allusions to people as like Edward Weston drew blank stares when I arrived here. It was changing. The William James students were different in the sense that they were much more aware of what they were up to with their educations, I think, for the most part. I remember when, in the last year of William James, when there was all this rumors and talk and almost every day brought a new scenario of what the reorganization was going to be like. I remember that Provost Niemeyer appeared at a student forum in the Campus Center and there were probably a couple of hundred students who were there. It was interesting to me as I looked around the room that good percentage, perhaps the majority of those students, were William �James students and that the questions that were being asked the hard questions, and the appropriate, questions were coming almost uniformly from William James students. In that respect I think William James is doing something very well for students, making them understand that they had responsibility for their education. [Rathbun] That they had the right to ask questions and to expect answers about their educational experience and about what was going on. And they were asking pretty intelligent questions and Niemeyer wasn't entirely happy about that. He squirmed a lot. He clearly wasn't pleased with some of the questions that were being asked. But it occurred to me and watching that whole thing transpire: that if really interested in an educational experience for students in which they understand that they have control over their lives was working here, he should have been tickled that those people were asking those kinds of questions, because it meant that their education was working. [Barbara] Do you remember what they were asking? [Rathbun] I don't remember the specific questions, Barb, I just remember that during that whole discussion the questions and seem to be right on the mark, that seem to be the right questions that students ought to be asking, the William James students were asking. And it was not entirely comfortable for the administration to have to try to answer those questions. But it was precisely an indication of success in the educational experiences that students were having here. [Barbara] Let me ask you this but let me change the shot and zoom. Woah, that's darker zooming in. Okay, good. I want to ask you: this is all very well to talk about how we taught them to ask the questions, but it didn't save us. What could have saved us, or what was your experience in the process of closing James? [Rathbun] Well, it's all too easy in retrospect to understand that nothing could have saved us, short of moving the school somewhere else. And it's hard for me to really understand how all of that transpired Barb because I wasn't here during most of William James. I had really sort of one good year and then the second year, which was the last year of William James, everything was in turmoil and up in the air. I seriously doubt that there was anything significant the faculty could have done, or the students could have done. I think the decision was made, I think it was simply a matter of how to implement the decision and dissolve the units. And I think after that happened the degree to which there was hostility, it was like someone turn on the tap, it was like packs of dogs were being held at bay and suddenly been released and it seems so unnecessary. [Barbara] Tell me, that's too vague, I don't know what you mean. �[Rathbun] Well, the attempt in an early discussion in the School of Communications to eradicate all evidence of William James having been in Lake Superior Hall. The suggestion on the part of some faculty from a previous unit that the portrait of William James be painted over with post-haste, with great haste. That's the right way to say that. [Rathbun] The articles that appeared in the Lanthorn characterizing William James’ students and faculty as some sort of malcontents. Things which under a healthy old division probably would not have been printed suddenly were popping up all over the place. It seems clear to me that the decision was made and it was only a matter of how to work it out with the least damage from their perspective. [Barbara] Do you see any organizational or other holdovers from James in the new structure? [Rathbun] Well, I don't see very many and I'm so busy that it's hard for me to look very far away. And I thinks that's one of the problems of the new structure. Certainly, we don't have the kinds of collegial possibilities that we used to have. I think it's clear that those holdovers or those instances where the William James philosophy carries on are to be found in individuals, and mostly individuals that were in James, although it is interesting that there are other faculty who continue to be sympathetic and espouse certain ideas. And I'm not, again… because I wasn't a part of William James from the beginning and for years and years and years, I don't know whether I am really Jamesian in the sense of wearing a badge. I think that I'm interested in intelligent educational experiences for students. I don't think of myself as trying to teach them something. I think of myself as a fellow traveler with them. I think of myself as someone who is growing with them, and what I try to do is provide environments and experiences which hopefully allow the students to learn something. And I think that maybe is a part of what William James College was about at its best. I think it's just damn good teaching and I think wherever people are teaching in that kind of way, where they understand that they really are involved in this with students and perhaps at best what we can do is try to create a series of experiences from which students can learn something. And I think that's living. I think it continues to live. But I don't think you're going to find it in any particular unit; I think your going to have to look at individual people. [Barbara] I'm out of questions. Do you have anything else to say? [Rathbun] I don't think so. I mean, I can stop at this point. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource William James College Interviews Description An account of the resource Videotaped interviews of William James College faculty, students and administrators by Barbara Roos. William James College opened in 1971 as the third baccalaureate degree granting college for Grand Valley. It was originally designed to be an interdisciplinary, non-departmentalized college consisting of concentration programs, rather than majors. Curriculum was organized around three concentrations that were meant to be interdisciplinary career preparation offerings: Social Relations, Administration and Information Management, and Environmental Studies. The college was discontinued in 1983 during a reorganization of Grand Valley. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1984 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/69">William James College faculty and student interviews (GV016-16)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Universities and colleges Oral histories Alternative education Interdisciplinary approach in education Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Roos, Barbara (Interviewer) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV016-16 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Language A language of the resource eng Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV016-16_GVSU_15_Rathbun Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rathbun, David Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1984 Title A name given to the resource David Rathbun interview (video and transcript) Description An account of the resource Interview with David Rathbun by Barbara Roos, documenting the history of Grand Valley State's William James College. William James College was the third baccalaureate degree granting college for Grand Valley. It was originally designed to be an interdisciplinary, non-departmentalized college consisting of concentration programs, rather than majors. The college opened in 1971 and was discontinued in 1983 during a reorganization of Grand Valley State. David Rathbun was a faculty member in William James College who taught photography in the Arts and Media program, and was a longtime professor and founder of GVSU's photography program. In this interview, David discusses how he started his journey with William James College in 1981, his initial impressions of the WJC community, and the extraordinary experience he had being a member of its faculty. This interview is part 1 of 1 for David Rathbun. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Roos, Barbara (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Universities and colleges Oral histories Alternative education College environment Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/69">William James College faculty and student interviews (GV016-16)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/74544de1f7db4468596c9f56e2b370a4.pdf f66bca57f6f9773db231d8c10bb7817f PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: David Rivera Reyes Interviewers: Jose Jimenez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 1/12/2011 Runtime: 01:28:27 Biography and Description David Rivera’s family arrived to the Division and Clark Streets area in 1950 and from there in 1952, they moved to Clybourn and Halsted Streets between the Cabrini Green Housing Projects and the Lincoln Park Neighborhood. A few months later David Rivera arrived and the entire family moved to Don Orelio’s house on Dayton Street between North Avenue and Willow Street. They were brief neighbors with the Cha-Cha Jimenez family who lived downstairs from them. Not long afterwards the Rivera family bought a house across from the alley on Fremont Street, south of Willow where Bissell Street intersected. This was one of the first enclaves of Puerto Ricans that settled in Lincoln Park. The enclave connected with others later but stretched in the area from Halsted street west to Sheffield Ave., and from North Avenue to Willow Street. David’s grandfather became the neighborhood barber and David’s siblings built a homemade rollercoaster that came down the railing and stretched into the large backyard and back. It was basically a crate with roller skate wheels and each kid paid two or three cents with empty bottle refunds, for the ride. David’s nickname was Chicken Killer because he and his brothers worked at the live chicken store on North Avenue, of which the street had become the primary business area for the Latino section. He also worked with his cousin Orlando Davila on a milk truck as well as several other factories of the area. �While only 10 and 11 they were a part of the Knights which soon later Orlando organized them with others and they became a totally new group called the Young Lords; as a street group or gang in 1960. David also led the motorcycle group called the Sons of the Devil while still being the Field Marshall for the Young Lords political group. �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: Can you tell me your full name, and when you were born, and where you were born? DAVID RIVERA REYES: My name is David Rivera Reyes. I was born in Puerto Rico - Coamo, Puerto Rico. I was born in 1948, so I’ll be turning 70 in a couple of months. JJ: So you didn’t answer me, how was Coamo, Puerto Rico? What do you remember about Coamo? DRR: In Coamo, we used to live in the mountains in an area called Santa Catalina. It was a community where you couldn’t use a car to get up there, it can only go so far, and then you’d have to walk the rest of the way. I remember we having a community [00:01:00] well where people went and got their water, their potable water, carry it back in cans. I remember the big square cans that after they -cracker cans, Export Sodas cans, that was the thing that people used to carry their water. They would wash their dishes outside one of the windows in the sink. Their baths were either in the river or they would take water and go into the outhouse with soap and water in another smaller can, would bathe. People out there lived mostly off the land. Everybody worked the land. If you didn’t work your own land, you would work for someone else. Mostly likely you would go [00:02:00] out and cut sugar cane which was one of the main jobs that people had down there was sugar cane -- and building in cement blocks, but the majority would work their own land and sell their products in town to make a living. People that were able to save up some money and fly out after the big migration 1 �back in the ’40s, late ’40s. My parents were some that came -- I believe it was in 1950 when they came up to Chicago. It was my parents, and some uncles and some aunts. I remember that [00:03:00] they would live in a small hotel on North Avenue and Dayton -- North Avenue, Dayton, and Clybourn. There was a restaurant called The Golden Ox. In that building, there were lots of rooms for rent. A lot of them stayed there. Maybe sometimes even three, four, and five people in one small room. They would get jobs wherever they could. Mostly they got maintenance jobs, or jobs where they had to clean up after everybody or, if they were lucky, restaurant jobs. My mother was a lucky one. My mother was a blonde-haired, blue-eyed Puerto Rican woman. She got lucky, she got a job at a called Carbit Paint Company [00:04:00] right off of North Avenue by California. JJ: Carbon Paint -- DRR: Carbit. Carbit Paint Company. She was paid to put labels on cans. I believe she started at about $0.75 to $0.80 an hour. She worked in that company until she retired. But in that company, she was able, because of her hard work, was able to put a few of my uncles to work there, my aunts to work there, other people that would come in from Puerto Rico looking for jobs, a lot of them ended up working at Carbit Paint Company and all through her hands. JJ: Where was this located? DRR: The company was on North Avenue, [00:05:00] but they got bigger, so they moved over on Kingston by the railroad tracks. There they bought a big factory and they would make their own paints there. And then the North Avenue location 2 �became the actual store where people go and buy their paint. I remember me working at that paint company myself when I was 17. JJ: A lot of Puerto Ricans? DRR: Pardon. JJ: A lot of Puerto Ricans? DRR: A lot of Puerto Ricans. I would say 50 percent of the labor -- or even more so -practically all the laborers were Puerto Ricans, and the majority of the Puerto Ricans were from our small town in Puerto Rico, Coamo. It was more like a family thing. [00:06:00] But they were hard workers and they were liked very much -- except my father. My father worked in a lumber company. JJ: So what was your father’s name and your mother’s name? And your siblings. DRR: My father’s name was Franciso, my mother’s name was Angelica, but they called her Angie, or, as we call her, [Las Halo?]. We also had my grandfather, Gregorio Ortiz, and my grandmother, Sofia Ortiz. But my grandfather was a man of all trades. That was a man that I learned to admire. Soft-spoken, a man of few words, he was a professional barber, professional carpenter, cabinet-maker, [00:07:00] instrument-maker, he would build his own guitars and all kinds of instruments. He was very professional at what he did, and that’s how he made his living. As a matter of fact, [he who worked back?] for himself doing this actually did better than a lot of people that worked in factories, and especially married to my grandma because she used to take every penny she had and put it away which was good because it actually allowed my mother to be one of the first Puerto Ricans in the neighborhood to be able to literally buy her own house. 3 �And she bought it on Fremont Street right over there by crooked Bissell. Matter of fact, the address over there was 1705 North Fremont [00:08:00] Street, a house that had four apartments, and she would rent the apartments. And my mom was a very strong woman which made us -- we became a little -- you would say little better off families in the neighborhood. But from there, a lot of them took off, and eventually a few of them bought their own buildings, their own houses. And this is in the Lincoln Park area, right on the outskirts of the Lincoln Park area. JJ: So (inaudible) from there, did you come from -- from what house? DRR: Well, when they first came, actually, they lived around 63rd and Halsted. [00:09:00] From 63rd and Halsted, they moved down to around 43rd and Halsted. JJ: What year? DRR: I would say 1950-1951. By 1952, they had moved out to the Lincoln Park area over on North Avenue and Halsted, Clybourn. By this time, 1953, we went to school. I started going to school in 1953. I was going to Mulligan School on Sheffield, so were my brothers and my sisters. JJ: So how many brothers and sisters and what are their names? DRR: I had one sister [00:10:00] called Damari, my brother, Nelson, my brother, Jose, and my brother, Selsa, and myself. That’s where I can say I have all my real childhood memories. JJ: At Mulligan? 4 �DRR: At Mulligan, on Bissell and Dayton, on Fremont and Bissell. Even though they run parallel, Bissell -- we call it crooked Bissell because it took a turn and it ran into -JJ: What kind of memories? DRR: Fun memories. That’s when we went outside, played with our friends, building skateboards out of two by four’s and old roller-skates and using an old crate for it, [00:11:00] and putting handles on it, and dressing it up with bottle caps. Building bicycles out of parts that we found. I remember we found a tire, we needed a tire, and it had a bubble in it, so we put black electrical tape all around it. So we drove 10, 20 miles an hour on that bike, and all along it would go bloop, bloop, bloop, bloop, bloop, bloop, (laughter) down the street. At night, we would play games and go to the play lot, play baseball -- mostly stick ball. We would play stick ball on the street. It was a fun time growing up. Wearing our little Davy Crockett t-shirts and our cap pistols playing war. JJ: So Davy Crockett was a big person at that time? DRR: Oh, Davy Crockett [00:12:00] was our hero. Davy Crockett -JJ: I actually had a Davy Crockett hat. DRR: Oh, yeah, the little hat with the tail, the mask of the Lone Ranger, Zorro, The Cisco Kid, all became our heroes. Those were the programs that we watched. We had a lot of channels. All four of them: Channel 2, Channel 9, Channel 7, and Channel 5. And Channel 11 you had to pay for. Those were wonderful memories. The only bad part about there was that being from a different country, a different culture, we couldn’t go into every store that we wanted to. [00:13:00] 5 �We would be told to get out. Or if we went to a hamburger stand, we would be told, “We don’t serve your kind.” JJ: You saw that? DRR: Yes. Actually, lived it. JJ: How did you see it? Give me an example. DRR: Well, I just told you. We were not allowed to go in there. I didn’t even think that it was racism, I just figured it was -- we weren’t allowed in there, and we weren’t allowed in there. What I was told, “When an adult tells you no, it was no.” You didn’t speak back to an adult. You had to respect an adult no matter who it was. That’s how we were brought up. We were brought up under the strength of a chancleta and a good leather belt. That’s how -JJ: The shoe? The chancleta? DRR: Oh, that chancleta. Yeah, the almighty chancleta. [00:14:00] It had a lot of power. You could loud mouth all you want, but when grandma took out that chancleta, you shut up. (laughs) But I guess I never realized it until later on in my -- as I got a little older what it really was. I just thought, “You can’t go in there, you can’t go in there. They don’t want you in there, they don’t want you in there.” In my neighborhood, it was mostly Latino, some Blacks, and the whites that were there, now I call them poor whites -- Appalachian whites. They were treated by everybody else just as bad as we were. So since we all played in the street, we didn’t see no difference, we just played with everybody and [00:15:00] everybody played with us. But now, as we started to move out of the neighborhood away from Mulligan School, started going to Newberry School, 6 �some of us went to Newberry School, some of us -- I got sick to where I couldn’t walk very well, so I would get bused to school, to a school called Spalding on Washington and Ashland. It was a parochial school because I had to walk on crutches. Now, I was there for about three years after I left Mulligan. When I got out of there, it was 1961. In 1961, I started hanging around [00:16:00] with the other kids that -- I let go of the crutches, so I was able to go out. And my cousin, Orlando, and Lupe, and Hector, and Blas -JJ: So your cousin was Orlando Davila? DRR: Orlando Davila. JJ: The one that founded the Young Lords street gang. DRR: Yeah. JJ: That’s your cousin that -- DRR: Yeah, Orlando Davila would work with us -JJ: And Lupe and his brothers -- DRR: Yeah, they’re from the same town we were in in Coamo. JJ: Oh, he’s from Coamo, too. DRR: Yeah, we all -- our parents all came up at the same time. JJ: Did they live near you? DRR: Yeah. JJ: Where did they live? DRR: They lived on Bissell just north of Willow. Yeah, between Willow -JJ: That’s where Orlando lived? DRR: Yeah. 7 �JJ: Okay. What do you remember of him? Do you remember anything? DRR: Oh, I remember everything of him. He was the third of four boys. He had [00:17:00] a sister named Myrna. His father, Lupe, and his mother Mercedes. His mother’s name was Mercedes. His older brother was Blas, and there was Hector, and then there was Orlando, and then there was Lupe. And Orlando and Lupe were the ones that used to hang around with us because they were the younger ones. I remember Hector, it was in the ’50s, late ’50s, when we heard the news that Hector had died. I don’t know all the details, but they found him in a chair, and he was dead. I remember when they buried him, Orlando stepping up to me and saying, [00:18:00] “Does that hole look six feet deep?” I looked at him, I said, “Man, I don’t know.” He goes, “Yeah, because they say they gotta be six feet.” I says, “Well, I really don’t know.” But that was devastating to them. JJ: So Orlando, I mean he’s the founder of the gang. So what type of person was he when he was younger? A mean guy or did he -- DRR: Orlando was not a mean guy. Him and I hung out a lot. We would walk to school together, we would get out of school together, we would go to the A&A together, we would go to the play lot together, we walked home together. You know, we were close because we lived close to each other. We even worked in [00:19:00] a milk truck together. JJ: What did you guys talk about? What did you talk about together? DRR: We talked about anything that was going on, like, for example, when he was working for the milk truck -- Orlando was a worker. Orlando always had a job. When he wasn’t at the milk truck, he was on his bicycle delivering newspapers. 8 �He always had a paper route. You know what? I never remember Orlando backing out of anything or from anybody. Orlando was a warrior. He was a softspoken, [00:20:00] a kid of very few words, but he was a warrior. And he loved his family and he loved his friends, but he stood up for what he believed in. And I believe that that’s why we looked at him as a leader because he was a fighter. Like I said, as we started branching out away from the little neighborhood, we started running into different other problems which was gang problems. Like our parents would go to Saint Teresa’s Church. When we went, we had problems because you had a group called Corp which was actually -- came out of the German Bugle Corp. Saint Michael’s -- not Saint Teresa’s, Saint Michael’s. [00:21:00] And they also had, in the neighborhood there was a street called Mohawk, so they had a group called the Mohawk Boys. And down around Dickens and Halsted was a group called Roma’s, they used to hang around Roma’s restaurant and pizzeria. And we had problems with them because the hot dog stand that we used to like to go to was Uncle Frank’s over there on Halsted and Dickens, and just down the street was the Roma’s restaurant, so that caused a lot of conflicts, a lot of fights. And that’s when we started grouping up as gangs. Now, I remember some of the first gangs were [00:22:00] the Black Eagles, the Paragons, the Imperial Aces, the Continentals which was the one that Carlos Flores belonged to, and my brother, Selsa, belonged to -- the Trojans, and then there was the Young Knights which were the ones that Orlando put together which weeks later became the Young Lords. I remember the first time that they became the Young Lords, we took white paint and painted 9 �the Young Lords name on Burling Street, right next to the border [00:23:00] play lot because we were declaring that our turf, the playground over there on Armitage and Burling. Where at that time, they had just finished building the new Arnold Upper Grade Center, that was the summer of 1962. Summer of 1962, they finished building the Arnold Upper Grade Center right across the street from Waller High School, and it was supposed to open for class at the end of ’62 and the beginning of ’63. We got t-shirts, we had black and purple sweaters which we got the colors [00:24:00] from watching the movie West Side Story. JJ: Where’d you watch it at? DRR: We watched it at the Biograph Theater. I remember the day we went to watch it, we got into a big old fight over there because the kids from Roma’s, and the Mohawk Boys, and the Corp were all there, and so were the Young Lords, so were the Paragons, the Imperial Aces, the Black Eagles -- the Black Eagles was the gang that almost all the other kids looked up to because they were like the older kids, 17, 18-year old kids. And we were just really young, we were only like 14, 15-years old. [00:25:00] A lot of gang fights. JJ: So how did the fights start? At the Biograph? DRR: At the Biograph, I really don’t know. All I know is that everybody started running, and everybody was kicking, everybody was pulling out knives, everybody was taking their belts off to use as whips, popcorn was flyin’ all over the place, soda was flyin’ all over the place. The Puerto Rican kids on one side, the white kids on the other side, everybody else was terrified. All I know is that we ran out of there laughin’. I remember stopping at the alleyway on the way down Lincoln 10 �Avenue, and that’s where [00:26:00] -- as a matter of fact, it was Orlando who pointed it out to me and said, “Hey, this is the alley they had killed John Dillinger at.” I said, “Yeah, but let’s get out of here.” So we ran down that alley all the way to Austin Street and away from there. Later that night, we got an attack by bottles from a car that drove past the play lot, and we were chasing them, and I think they were the Mohawk Boys who did that. In school, it was the same thing because they used to go to the same schools we did. JJ: They went to Mulligan? DRR: Not Mulligan, we were already going to Arnold Upper Grade Center, and some of them were first year Waller High School. Newberry -- I think he [00:27:00] used to go to Newberry. I remember my cousin, Arsenio, starting the Trojans group. Then from there, we started hanging out -- got a little older, we started hanging out -JJ: So why did they have -- like you said, your cousin started the Trojans, and they had the Black Eagles, and they had these other -- Paragon and that. Why were people starting these groups? DRR: Well, at first the groups used to get together even without a name because it was actually for protection. You did not want to walk to school by yourself. Most of the time, you walked by yourself, you ended up getting chased, by yourself or beat up. JJ: [00:28:00] Why? Why were they chasing you and beating you? DRR: Well, how should I say? I hate to say it this way but the white groups at the time felt that we were invading their territory. 11 �JJ: The gangs? DRR: The gangs, the Puerto Ricans itself. The Puerto Ricans. Remember, the Lincoln Park area was almost all white. When the Puerto Ricans started moving in, and then the Blacks started coming in from around North Avenue and Sedgwick or the Cabrini-Green projects because they couldn’t all go to Cooley, they felt threatened. They felt their neighborhoods were being taken over [00:29:00] and they wanted to fight for their territory. As far as they were concerned, it was their play lots, their restaurants, their park. And they figured, “We beat them up, they’ll go away.” JJ: So the white groups were worried about their territory, but they were attacking all the Puerto Ricans? DRR: Yeah, they were attacking anybody that didn’t belong there. JJ: Is that correct or -- I don’t want to put words in your mouth. DRR: What? JJ: I don’t want to put words in your mouth. So they were concerned, the white groups, about their gang territory, but they were attacking every Puerto Rican. DRR: Yeah, they didn’t know the difference. JJ: So they didn’t want to attack a gang, they were attacking Puerto Ricans. Is that correct or no? Or were attacking the gangs? DRR: [00:30:00] They were attacking gangs because it was teenagers against teenagers, though when older Puerto Ricans would walk down the street, they would get mugged or talked down to. A lot of people didn’t pay attention, they didn’t understand what the hell they were saying anyway. 12 �JJ: When you say older, do you mean teenagers? DRR: No, when I say older it’s your mom, your dad, your grandpa, your grandma. JJ: The moms and dads were mugged. DRR: I remember my grandfather, for example, coming out of Del Farm’s over there on Halsted and North Avenue, and how he would say that a couple of white kids would run past him and knock his bags off his hands. It was just, “Here’s an old Puerto Rican man, let’s knock his groceries out for the fun of it.” [00:31:00] They just became like natural enemies. Yeah, you know what? It’d be safe to say that it just became a racial thing because to them everybody was Puerto Rican. You could’ve been from Mexico, but if you talked Spanish, you were Puerto Rican. It’s like today everybody’s Mexican. If you speak Spanish, you’re Mexican because that’s everybody focus, on Mexico. The thing was that the groups banned could actually fight for turf, to actually fight [00:32:00] for a place to be able to go and hang out like the playground. Or when we aren’t allowed or told we couldn’t go to North Avenue beach -- every time you went down to North Avenue beach, there was always a big fight. The Puerto Rican teens, they used to go down there to play baseball, were told to get out or they couldn’t play there after they were told that they could. We were fighting for the right to live here is what you were actually doing. At the time, we didn’t see it as what we see it today, but yeah. [00:33:00] And all these groups, it was because of different friends you had, different age groups. For example, a Young Lord couldn’t become a Black Eagle because they were too young. The Black Eagles were 13 �older kids. The Imperial Aces were older kids. I’m trying to think of some other names. JJ: Was there a lot of drugs at that time? Because today the gangs are into drugs. DRR: No, they weren’t into drugs. The older ones did smoke marijuana. They used to call it reefer back then. They would smoke marijuana. Marijuana came into the city in the early [00:34:00] to mid-’60s, that I remember. I remember that’s when I started smoking when I was about 14, 15. I’m talking about cigarettes, and some of my friends were already smoking marijuana cigarettes. I don’t remember them using any heavier type of drugs. Now -JJ: But I meant at that time when you first started fighting with the white gangs? DRR: No, not at that time. Then when the Young Lords themselves moved to their hangout from Larrabee and Armitage, Halsted and Armitage, or Dickens and Halsted over there, [00:35:00] we started hanging out on Leland and North Avenue. JJ: Wieland. DRR: Oh Wieland and North Avenue. And over there near Wieland and North Avenue was a restaurant called the OK Corral, and that’s where we used to hang out at. By now, there was -- I’m looking for (inaudible). JJ: Need a break? DRR: Yeah, a break. (break in audio) DRR: But like I was talking about, we were -- we moved down to North Avenue and Wieland. The OK Corral -- because our hang out became Old Town in Chicago. 14 �JJ: What does that look like? OK Corral? DRR: The OK Corral was just a restaurant. We used to hang out there, [00:36:00] and everybody was meeting there like we used to meet at the old A&A restaurant. JJ: A&A restaurant, where was that at? DRR: That was at Armitage and Larrabee. JJ: And what did that look like? DRR: That was just a small restaurant with a counter, about three or four chairs in it, and the kids used to go in there and hang out. I remember Mary, the lady that first bought it, she couldn’t take it because she liked the kids, but the kids didn’t allow good business to come in, so she sold it to Octavio. Octavio let us hang out, but him, too, had the same problem. We were hanging in there so other folks wouldn’t go in there and eat, so eventually it just closed down. Same thing with the OK corral. [00:37:00] Now, by this time, we’re 16, 17-years old. I’ve already quit school. JJ: Were there more Puerto Ricans at that time moving in or no? DRR: A lot more Puerto Ricans. JJ: What year was this? DRR: We’re talking about 1964-’65, ’66. JJ: Why were they moving in? DRR: Why were they moving in? JJ: Yeah, what was going on that a lot of Puerto Ricans were moving in? DRR: It was just a Puerto Rican neighborhood. The people that came in, you know, that’s where people went to. They search out their own people, actually. 15 �Chicago’s very diverse, you know, everybody had like their own neighborhoods. I remember there, [00:38:00] for example -JJ: So it was segregated, they had their own neighborhoods. DRR: Right, their own neighborhoods. JJ: It was diverse, it had different peoples. DRR: Exactly. By this time, though, the Puerto Rican population now is moving east of Halsted and east of Larrabee. Now, you were going into what used to be considered, you know, a non-Latino area. You only saw -JJ: So now the Puerto Ricans are invading. DRR: Exactly. So the other groups are feeling like they were being invaded, exactly. JJ: The people felt that? DRR: Yeah. At the same time now, during this time, besides the teenagers, there was a lot of things going on also with the Latinos -- [00:39:00] the parents. Some of the parents are now doing a little bit better financially even though they are only $1.10, $1.20 an hour, they were doing -- other things were going on. What was going on? I don’t know if you’ve ever heard of a group called the Hacha Viejas. JJ: Yes. In English, what -- DRR: The Hacha Viejas? Old Axes. They were involved in other things. Now some of the Puerto Rican people are opening up stores, they’re opening up bars -- still working in factories, but they’re opening up these businesses. I never understood why. I figured they work hard for it, but later on I found out that it was the numbers -- the lotería, numeros. [00:40:00] Numero lotería china they called it. 16 �JJ: Chinese? DRR: Mm-hmm. It was just like today’s lotto, but only it was clandestine, it was underground. You sold numbers, and people were making money from it. Also, the marijuana business was growing. Besides the marijuana business growing, it was the Vietnam war. The Vietnam war was creating a new kind of animal, one that was always there but never seen as much, and that animal -- I call it animal, but -- for lack of a word, but the heroin addict. I moved away from the Young Lords [00:41:00] in about 1965, and got together with my cousin, Gilbert, Santiago, and started a group called The Sons of the Devil motorcycle club. I was with them when -JJ: Where did you start them at? What streets? DRR: At Saint Teresa’s Church, actually. (laughs) Actually, it was Saint Teresa’s Church. They called themselves the (inaudible) at first, and then they became The Sons of the Devil motorcycle club. There were only about four or five of us. But later on, that’s when Cha-Cha got locked up around that time. He came out with something new, and that was a red book by [00:42:00] Mao Zedong, Stalin, Lenin. It was very confusing to me at first because communism -- I didn’t see it as communism. I understood commune as people getting together. By now, there’s a lot of communes going because a lot of hippies, and people living together, and the free love thing came out, and everything. What Cha-Cha was talking about now was liberation. He was talking about independence. He was talking about self-determination. And I went back to work with the Young Lords -or to the Young Lords, and was being re-educated with these things, [00:43:00] 17 �reading these books and different type of mentality, different way of looking at things. Me, I always saw it as my people needs help. This is my people, this is what we’re gonna to fight for. And it became a fight. It became a war. Not like the war that my parents were fighting. My parents were fighting a whole different type of war. JJ: What were they fighting? DRR: They were fighting the war of keeping their dignity. JJ: What do you mean? DRR: Dignity as far as human beings. Not being mistreated or looked down at, less in their jobs and jobs that turn good hard-working men to start thinking less of themselves then to turn to alcohol, and wife-beating, [00:44:00] and child-beating -- to be able to still feel like men. It was something that was epidemic. Practically all the people were having problems. JJ: How were they doing that? DRR: How were they doing the -JJ: Your parents, how were they keeping dignity? DRR: Oh, no. My father was one that fell into it. My father became a drinker, a drunk. Every Friday night, yes, he brought home what he had to bring home, but he also brought home my mother a war. My mother paid the consequences of all his hardships and the things that he was going through as a man or as a person. It happened to a lot of good men like that. Meantime, now, this is causing problems between fathers and sons. 18 �JJ: [00:45:00] So he was going through some things and it was impacting her? It was affecting her? DRR: Well, it was impacting her because she was the one that was getting beat up. JJ: Oh, so he was beating her up. DRR: She was the one that had to go to work with a black eye, she was the one that always had to put up with the fact that she was told that she was nothing but dirt. Why? I really don’t know. But my mother was a warrior. She kept going. JJ: What did your mother do? How did she respond? DRR: By this time, two of my brothers went into the military. One went into the Air Force which was Nelson, Jose [00:46:00] went into the U.S. Army, 101st Airborne Division. By this time, it was 1967-68. I came home, and I literally moved my mother -- my father went to work, and I went and spoke with my brother, Selsa, and we went to talk to Luis Rivera who owned the store over there on Willow and Halsted, it was a Spanish store. He loaned us the pick-up truck, and we actually found a small apartment on Larrabee Street, and moved my mother out before my father came home from work. That’s how we pulled my mother out of that mess, together with my grandparents. By this time, things were going on in the neighborhood. JJ: So were other men doing the same thing? DRR: [00:47:00] Oh, yeah. A lot of the men. JJ: Do you know of anybody else that was doing that? DRR: I don’t want to mention names because -JJ: Don’t mention names, but can you give me an idea of what it was like? 19 �DRR: Oh, yes. My cousins were going through the same thing. My friends were going through the same thing with their parents. JJ: Why do you think men were going through that? DRR: In Puerto Rico, they went and worked a hard day’s labor and maybe made a dollar or two a day -- a couple of dollars a day, but they took pride in what they did, and men were looked at because their word was their bond. He didn’t have to have a dollar in his pocket, [00:48:00] if he had his word, he had everything. Over here, their word meant something among themselves. Outside their groups, their word was nothing. “I will pay you next week,” meant nothing. They didn’t have the education to get a higher paying job. So over here, to be able to survive, they had to take shit jobs which allowed the other people with better jobs to look down upon them, so now they’re feeling lesser. JJ: So they’re being treated lesser, looked down on. DRR: Lesser, and they went home and just took it out on their own. [00:49:00] It’s just something that it was a great vicious circle. JJ: Were the women getting any help from anything? DRR: Oh, no because if you remember, it wasn’t until the early, mid-’60s that -- you didn’t see no Latino policeman. You didn’t see no Black policeman, you didn’t see Latino firemen, you didn’t see no Black firemen. You didn’t see Latino or Black proprietors until then. It was into the later ’60s that groups like the Young Lords organization, and groups like [00:50:00] later on the Young Lords party, groups like the Comancheros, and the Patriots was the white group, and the Brown Berets, the Black Panther Party. -- it was when groups like this came out 20 �saying, “We have rights. We deserve to be able to this school to get the education we need.” JJ: So that was the older women, right? Our mothers and fathers, that’s what you’re saying. But what about the Young Lordettes? [00:51:00] How did that affect them? (inaudible) Queens? DRR: The Young Lordettes were women which actually were Young Lords, they became the Young Lordettes. When the Young Lords became political, the women became -JJ: (inaudible). DRR: Right, because they were women who were fighting for their rights as women. JJ: I mean before they became political. DRR: Before they became political? JJ: Right. DRR: Before they became political, they were just like any other women. JJ: Getting beat up, too? DRR: Yeah. Just all the gang members pulling their girlfriend’s hair or slapping them. JJ: So the gang members were doing that to (inaudible)? DRR: Definitely. That was their MO, you know? JJ: Okay, so now you’re saying that that [00:52:00] made some changes after the Young Lords became more political? Is that what you’re saying? DRR: Exactly. There was a big change. JJ: How did that happen? DRR: The change was that the women were fighting for their rights, their rights to -- 21 �JJ: What women? I mean which woman was -- DRR: For example, Angie. I admire Angie. I love that woman. One of the strongest women I ever met. She was one that fought for women’s rights, to be equals to their men, not -JJ: She was a Young Lord? DRR: She was a Young Lordette, yes. If you want to call her a Young Lordette after they became political. But she was married to Pancho Lind which was one of the comrades who fell in this, [00:53:00] I would call it, war for civil rights. Her husband was a fallen comrade just like Manuel Ramos, a fallen comrade -- Fred Hamilton, Mark Clark. JJ: So what do you remember the women doing around that time with Angie? What was she looking at (inaudible)? DRR: They were educating the other women in the neighborhood. JJ: Educating, what do you mean? DRR: Educating women in the neighborhood as far as their rights to stand up as women, that they had rights, too, that they didn’t have to take abuse, that they didn’t have to walk underneath or behind, that they were there to walk next to their man. They had equal rights as anybody else and any man there. And Angie [00:54:00] was one person who gave strength to a lot of these women. God bless her. JJ: So how did the gangs take that? DRR: Well, at first, the gangs didn’t think it was too good. Like, “What do you mean? Go make me some coffee,” “Go make it yourself.” “What do you mean go make 22 �it myself?” A lot of things changed. It got to the point where, “Hey, can you make me some coffee?” “Sure, honey, I’ll make you some coffee -- or, “You serve it,” or something. But they went because they wanted to go, not because they were told to go. You learned to treat (laughs) your woman as an equal, and she was a comrade in arms. JJ: So in the Young Lords, they learned to do that? DRR: Oh, the Young Lords did that. JJ: So these are the same Young Lordettes, but now there’s some change -- what kind of changes [00:55:00] did you see? DRR: Oh, I saw a lot of changes. Their attitudes, sure. JJ: I mean you were there with the Young Lordettes when you were a Young Lord. DRR: I saw changes as far as -- and you know what’s funny? Is that a lot of them changed, but there were a few that did not. There were a few that were still accepted being told -- or being submissive to their man. Others were submissive to their man because that’s what they wanted to be not because they had to be, but they also stood for their rights. You know what? The relationships even got stronger because the women actually respected their -- they listened to their man because they respected that man as a comrade, and as an equal, and not as a master. [00:56:00] And those are the things that changed. They weren’t being seen like that anymore. They were women, they were taught to stand up if they were abused or beaten which is what actually really started the big push on battered women. 23 �DRR: But I mean within the Young Lords. What did you see the -- difference? Did you see any difference or there wasn’t any difference? JJ: I saw a lot of difference. The difference was at first, the guys used to hang out on the corner. The girls were there if their boyfriend was there. If their boyfriend wasn’t there, she ain’t gonna hang out because it was disrespectful. How they talked to each other, how they talked to the comrades, or to their friends. [00:57:00] After this, it didn’t matter. The guys were hanging out, the girls wanted to hang out, they came out to hang out. It was okay now. It wasn’t, “You don’t do that to your man,” type of thing. Changes to the point of -- what can I tell you? I can’t really explain it, all I can tell you is that the difference was they were no longer underlings, they were equals in every sense of the word, and you learned to respect them as women and as a comrade. And they were there to help you and fight with you side by side for everything that we were fighting for because while we were doing this, we were fighting. [00:58:00] It was a war. It was a war for our rights. It was a war to be able to say, “This is ours.” We have the right to education, we have the right to choose the school we want to go to. We have the right to be able to become who we want to become. It’s a right that we didn’t have, and it was that group of kids, that half of them didn’t even understand what the hell was going on, all they knew was that they had rights and that’s what they were fighting for. And the Young Lords organization was one that took it there and above and beyond to the recognition of not only in one little spot in Chicago called the Lincoln Park area, but it spread out to New York, Pennsylvania, 24 �California, and it got to be known [00:59:00] around the world as a movement for the rights of the human being. JJ: And so your parents came in the ’50s, and they settled around, you said, Clybourn and North Avenue? DRR: Yes, North Avenue. JJ: Dayton Street, right around there. That little area, how did that build up? So that means that there was a few Puerto Ricans moving into that area. DRR: Yeah, the Puerto Ricans started moving in -JJ: How did Lincoln Park look? DRR: -- the mid-’50s. JJ: Yeah, how did Lincoln Park look? DRR: They started moving in from like 63rd and Halsted down to around Clark and Division, and they kept moving further north, and they came around the western part of the Lincoln Park area west of Halsted. [01:00:00] And then after the mid’60s, they started moving towards east of Halsted, and started actually -- Halsted and Armitage, all those big tenement buildings, Sheffield and Armitage, Racine and Armitage, that area. The high school became more Latino-populated with kids. JJ: Waller High School? DRR: Waller High School, mostly. Lakeview High School. The Lincoln Park area is what you would call a few years ago the Humboldt Park area. That’s where the majority of the Puerto Ricans lived until the late ’60s [01:01:00] the Young Lords were fighting against urban renewal. 25 �JJ: So the neighborhood grew into Puerto Ricans, it became (inaudible) all over the place. DRR: Mostly Puerto Ricans, exactly. JJ: When did you start noticing the change, and then what was taking place with other families there? When did you start noticing? We’re going the opposite way. (laughs) DRR: 1962, 1963 -- ’61-’62, that’s when the Lincoln Park area started to flourish. When Arnold Upper Grade Center opened up again in the school year of ’62 and ’63, by this time more Puerto Ricans had moved in, more families had moved in. By this time, you already had [01:02:00] like restaurants, small restaurants, Hispanic restaurants and grocery stores like Luis Rivera’s store over on Willow and Halsted. You had the stores over on Armitage and Halsted. So it was growing to the point where it was home. Actually, it was our neighborhood. It was the Puerto Rican neighborhood, really. A lot of other stores moved out. [01:03:00] But with it, came the resistance because now there was not only the white gangs to deal with, now it was politics. You’re talkin’ about McCutcheon, for example. JJ: McCutcheon, who is he? DRR: The alderman. What was his name? Big Jim or -- I forgot their names. They were more like mafias types that had to do with the government. JJ: McCutcheon, alderman? DRR: Well, McCutcheon was the one whose office was blown up over there on -JJ: You mean other organizations? DRR: Yeah, other organizations. I can’t really -- 26 �JJ: The Lincoln Park neighborhood association. People like that? DRR: People like that, yeah. It had to do more with gangster type [01:04:00] organizations. JJ: But they weren’t gangsters, they were -- DRR: Business people. JJ: They were business people. DRR: Yeah. No gangsters, (laughs) (inaudible) people. JJ: (inaudible) gangsters. I know that there were some little gangsters at Bissell Realty and the real estate company. DRR: Exactly. JJ: They were like gangsters. The real estate companies were gangsters. DRR: That’s what I always believed. JJ: How would you believe that? DRR: I always believed that because it was just the way they carried out their business, the way they -JJ: Real estate people look like gangsters to you? DRR: Mm-hmm. JJ: They’re supposed to be business, but you thought they looked like gangsters. DRR: They looked like gangsters to me. They looked like gangsters to me, unless I was stereotyping ’em. I’m not sure, I might have been. But to me, they were all in the same club. [01:05:00] And I’m talking about the real estate people, the aldermen, and everybody else in that. JJ: They looked like gangsters to you? 27 �DRR: Yeah. JJ: They didn’t look like legitimate business people? DRR: Well, they might have been legitimate because they had the paperwork. I don’t know. To me, it was all a front. JJ: Are you just saying that because you became political? Or are you just saying that because you felt it? DRR: No. I looked at them, and it was like if I was sittin’ on this side on the street looking at our group, only they were a lot better organized, that’s why. JJ: So it was like another gang -- gangsters. DRR: [01:06:00] Yeah, but better. JJ: Okay, so it wasn’t business people like you go to Walmart or -- DRR: No, definitely not. JJ: It was not like that. Okay, so we’re dealing at Lincoln Park -- we’re dealing with gangsters. DRR: Exactly. We were dealing with [other things?]. JJ: And Fat Larry (inaudible). DRR: Fat Larry, yeah. JJ: He was clearly a gangster (inaudible). So you’re saying the rest of the real estate people -- DRR: I believed they were all tied up in all of that because I’ll tell you, you think, for example, anybody that ever came to help us, let’s say -- and I’m talking about, for example, [01:07:00] when we took over People’s Church. Everybody expected 28 �Reverend Johnson to kick us out and turn against us, but instead he decided to be with us and help us. Weeks later, he was stabbed to death with his wife. JJ: Who do you think did that? DRR: Who do I think, personally? JJ: Yeah, personally. DRR: Personally think that? I think they were the ones that did it. Those gangster types because they figured they get rid of him, they get rid of us because us being there was causing them a whole lot of trouble. Their businesses, they couldn’t run ’em as they’re supposed to. People didn’t want to buy houses there. [01:08:00] We became like bad news. And, remember, what they wanted was rich people or people with money to buy those properties because that’s why they wanted us out of there. But we were resistant. And definitely they couldn’t go out and kill half of us which they did because they did kill a few of us. No matter who pulled the trigger, there’s quite a few of us that died in those battles. And I named some names before. Manuel, Pancho, Mark, Fred -- you keep on naming ’em -- Martin Luther King, Malcom X, all these were killed in this war, [01:09:00] and a lot of times others were tried. For me, how did they tear us apart? The biggest weapon they ever used was drugs. And those drugs were not introduced by our own people. In the immediate sight, yes; behind the scenes, no. They couldn’t beat us with guns, they couldn’t beat us with force because we fought back, the same way we fought back the day of the fiesta at the church. JJ: Tell me about that fiesta. What was that all about? 29 �DRR: We were celebrating People’s Church, and we were having a big fiesta right outside the church, and we had asked permission to [01:10:00] McCutcheon, as a matter of fact, to give us permission to block Dayton Street on Armitage and Dayton Street at the alley. That way everybody that lives on that side of the church could come down Dayton and pull out on the alleys and go up to the other streets. After they said yes, they said no. After they gave us the permission, they said no, and they send out the storm troopers. The storm troopers came, they arrested four or five of our guys that went out to get some gasoline for the generators, and you -- they were looking for you, so you had to go into the church, and everything going was crazy. But there must have been 200-300 policeman out there in riot gear, [01:11:00] plus the ones parked at the high school waiting, hundreds more. JJ: Oh, so they had some at the high school. DRR: Yeah, they had a lot of them. So that’s when you told me to go out there and speak because the captain wanted to -- or the commander wanted to tell us to break it up. And I did. And after him and I spoke, he ended up -- it was better to close the street, give us our wish, let us have our party, leave a few of his policeman there, if we promised to clean up and throw all the garbage away afterwards. And I gave him my word that we would, he blocked off the streets, [01:12:00] he blocked it off at the alley and on Armitage, and we had a wonderful party. JJ: And a victory for the community. DRR: Yeah, a big party for the community, yeah. And I got to hand it -- 30 �JJ: That’s the one that’s on the website of Grand Valley State University, that block party, that’s on there. DRR: That block party? JJ: That’s (inaudible). DRR: Oh, that’s (inaudible). JJ: So what other things were you involved in with the Young Lords once they became political? DRR: My job? JJ: Once they became political, what other events do you remember? DRR: Well, I went to speak at a few universities and picked up donations. I was involved in the People’s Park. JJ: What was that? What was that about? DDR: The People’s Park [01:13:00] was when they came down to tear up the -- they tore down the tenement buildings, and then they decided they were gonna start doing the groundwork, and we got hundreds of people to come that one night and we formed a human chain right in front of Halsted and Armitage and blocked the bulldozers from getting on the land. And then the next day, all through that night, we worked moving rocks and things and cleaning up the lot. And the next day, somebody donated a jungle gym and some swings and we made it into People’s Park, a playground. And so that was a stand because we stood out all night. [01:14:00] I remember doing camp fires out there with the people. I was also involved with the Venceremos Brigade. JJ: Yeah, talk about that. What was that about? 31 �DRR: I was put in charge of looking for volunteers to go cut sugar cane in Cuba. JJ: Why were you doing that? DRR: Because Castro was calling it the harvest of the ten million (inaudible), [la zafra de los diez millones?]. They were trying to get at least ten million (inaudible) sugar. Not only with their own macheteros, they were using macheteros from here, volunteers. And 1970 was the first group, 1971 -- [01:15:00] I believe it was ’70 I went to Cuba. We went down there with about 400 strong to cut sugar cane from daylight to sundown to help them with their harvest. Also, my activities with the Young Lords, my activities with the other countries also got me into a committee called (inaudible) that took me to -- got myself invited to China, and I went to Mainland China as a guest of the Chinese government. JJ: How long were you there? DRR: I was there for about three weeks. That was in 1971. As a matter of fact, while I was there, [01:16:00] that’s when Hoover died. J. Edgar Hoover died while we were sittin’ in China because China was celebrating. They actually celebrated. (laughs) I became very political and got to be well-known. And the things that I did do, like speak at the universities, what happened at the church -JJ: And your title in the Young Lords, what was it? DRR: What? JJ: What was your title? DRR: My title with the Young Lords? National field marshal. And you gave me that title from the beginning, and to this day I wear it. I’ve been national field marshal for now what? Fifty years? (laughter) 32 �JJ: So your family, what happened after Lincoln Park? DRR: [01:17:00] After Lincoln Park, well, my mother and father got divorced. My mother bought a house in Lincoln Park. It was funny because we bought that house for $24,500. JJ: Where was it at? DRR: On Howe Street. Yep, $24,500. And when she passed away, they sold that house for $110,000. That house a couple of years ago when we went down there just on a memory lane trip, I think it was going for about a million and a quarter. Same house. JJ: So the property went up through the years. DRR: (laughs) It really went up. JJ: Are there any Puerto Ricans -- DRR: Very, very, very few. JJ: today at Lincoln Park? DRR: Very few. JJ: [01:18:00] After the years went by, what do you think that they were trying to do in Lincoln Park? Why did they want to kick out the Puerto Ricans? DRR: Well, they wanted an area that was close to the lake, close to downtown. It had two diagonal streets which was Lincoln and Clark, easy exit to the Gold Coast, a short drive. They actually wanted a suburb, an inner-city suburb, you can call it. And from there, they kicked us out to -- and pushed us out towards Humboldt Park. And today, they’re kicking us out of Humboldt Park. JJ: How come the Puerto Ricans didn’t rebel? Why didn’t they [01:19:00] fight back? 33 �DRR: You know what I think it was? I believe that our parents came and they took what they had to take because they didn’t know how to fight back or they feared to fight back. It took us to fight what we really wanted for. And it took us because, believe it or not, it damaged us in a lot of ways. And soldiers of freedom fighters that we were. We took the beating in order for our children today and our grandchildren [01:20:00] today to be able to go to school the way they’re doing. We have children and grandchildren who are cops, lawyers, I got one that’s a doctor because they were able to go to these schools that they needed to. JJ: How many grandchildren do you have? DRR: I got 36 grandkids. JJ: Any great-grandkids? DRR: Yeah, about 16 of them. But today, I talk with them -JJ: And they still call you a gang member? DRR: (laughs) Well, one of them called me a sit under the tree, old type of grandpa. But what I’m saying is that we took it so that our children can enjoy what they’re doing. I speak with my grandchildren today, and I told them, “Did you know that at one time you couldn’t go to the same restaurant and buy a hamburger where this guy went?” [01:21:00] “Oh, come on, Grandpa.” “Did you know that sometimes you couldn’t go to this school just because you wanted to?” They didn’t know that. Thank goodness that somebody -JJ: Why are you telling them that? 34 �DRR: It’s like you say, why did they stop fighting? Because they believe now that they still have everything. And I hate to say it, but this guy, Trump, best thing he ever did was run for president because he sure woke up a lot of people to reality and what’s really going on. He woke them up with a slap in the face. JJ: On that note, I mean he woke them up. So the Young Lords [01:22:00] fought back in Lincoln Park, but they kicked all the Puerto Ricans out of there. So did the Young Lords win or did they lose? DRR: You know, that’s a good question. I like to feel like I won. JJ: What do you mean? Why do you say that? DRR: I won that battle, we won that battle. JJ: Why? What makes you say that? DRR: Because if you look at today’s people’s lifestyles, our people’s lifestyles, they’re 100 percent better than what they were for us, and that’s because our children and our grandchildren were able to benefit from what we fought for. [01:23:00] We moved out, but we didn’t leave everything, we took a lot with us. And our kids today are what they are today and it’s because of people like the Young Lords. And half of us really didn’t know -- we knew where we wanted to go and what we wanted, but we didn’t understand the impact of it all. How many Latino policemen do we have today? Lawyers? Firemen? How many Latino judges do we have? How many [01:24:00] Latino channels do we have? How many Latino stores? Today even Winn-Dixie has Latino stores. And it all came back from the Latino people, the Puerto Rican people -- let’s say Latino people -- because it wasn’t just Puerto Ricans, it was every single Latino nation out there that fought. 35 �If we have all this today, our kids, our grandkids, that was because of people like the Young Lords. JJ: Any final thoughts? DRR: Don’t give up. Don’t give up, keep fighting, there’s always something to fight for. There’s always something [01:25:00] that belongs to you, and you have the right to have it. JJ: What’s the most important thing that you feel that the Young Lords contributed to Puerto Rican and other people -- other oppressed people? Or just other people in general. DRR: What the Young Lords contributed? JJ: That people should know about. DRR: That a group no matter how meaningless it may seem, how meaningful and powerful it can be [01:26:00] if you’re fighting for what you believe in. JJ: Any more final thoughts? DRR: I was going to say you can tell stories, we’d be here forever. JJ: I got one. How many grandkids did you say you have? DRR: Thirty-six. JJ: And how many grandkids? DRR: Great-grandkids? JJ: Well, yeah, great-grandkids. DRR: Great-grandkids, about 16. JJ: So 16 and 36. So how many kids do you have? And we didn’t say their names, what are their names? 36 �DRR: Oh, my children, I have -- there’s David, Jr. David II; there’s Latisha, there’s Le’Von, biological. [01:27:00] My other children are Laura, Marianna, Diana -she’s with God -- and Chrissie, and Charlene. Those are my heart-so-logical children. JJ: What do you want them to know about David Rivera Reyes? DRR: Not too much, I hope. (laughter) JJ: What do you want them to know? DRR: I just want them to know that whatever might have seemed crazy, if they see this video, that they find out and keep it in mind that everything they have and the power that they have today was because of people like their dad [01:28:00] who were willing to sacrifice what they needed to sacrifice for them to have what they have today, and the rights that they have today. And they have other rights which they should continue to fight for. JJ: Okay, thank you. END OF VIDEO FILE 37 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9ea322b072a5625461c5331c75503bc9.mp4 a17c94fb451c10351d1a0e1c988d9003 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry David Rivera Reyes vídeo entrevista y biografía, entrevista 1 Descripción Spanish language Description entry La historia oral de David Rivera Reyes, entrevistado por Jose 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez el 01/12/2011 acerca de los Young Lords en Lincoln Park. Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Narrativas personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Reyes_David_Rivera Title A name given to the resource David Rivera Reyes video interview and transcript, interview 1 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Reyes, David Rivera Description An account of the resource Oral history of David Rivera Reyes, interviewed by Jose 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez, on 01/12/2011 about the Young Lords in Lincoln Park. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Young Lords collection (RHC-65) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-01-12 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e44c2adbc465e8ed45f8948b23f5d2a4.pdf 8d8544dc68d89fcc71d4f0920fa40390 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: David Rodriguez Interviewer: Jose Jimenez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 5/15/2012 Runtime: 01:19:32 Biography and Description Oral history of David Rodriguez, interviewed by “Cha-Cha” Jimenez on May 15, 2012 about the Young Lords in Lincoln Park. "The Young Lords in Lincoln Park" collection grows out of decades of work to more fully document the history of Chicago's Puerto Rican community which gave birth to the Young Lords Organization and later, the Young Lords Party. Founded by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, the Young Lords became one of the premier struggles for international human rights. Where thriving church congregations, social and �political clubs, restaurants, groceries, and family residences once flourished, successive waves of urban renewal and gentrification forcibly displaced most of those Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, working-class and impoverished families, and their children in the 1950s and 1960s. Today these same families and activists also risk losing their history. �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: Okay, if you can start with your name, where you were born, and what year -- you know, what’s the -DAVID RODRIGUEZ: Okay, my name’s David Rodriguez. I was born in Chicago, Illinois, in 1956 on Chicago Avenue in Henrotin Hospital, okay? JJ: Henrotin Hospital? DR: Henrotin Hospital, I remember. Can’t get too much more Chicago-er than that. JJ: Oh, yeah, that’s Henrotin Hospital by LaSalle. DR: That’s right, LaSalle, on LaSalle. JJ: I thought it was on Oak Street. DR: Well, now it is. JJ: Yeah, it’s on Oak Street. DR: Yeah, so that’s where I -- JJ: It’s right between Chicago, Illinois. DR: Exactly. And after that, I don’t remember too much until I get older, okay? (laughs) JJ: Okay. No, that’s fine. DR: So -- JJ: Who’s your mother and father? DR: My mom and dad are Roman Rodriguez and Clotidle Rodriguez Flores, and if I’m not wrong, it was 1953 [00:01:00] when they got to Chicago. And they went there like all the other families that were going at that time from Puerto Rico. 1 �They went there looking for work, okay? I have other aunts. Their mom was part of the (Spanish) [00:01:16]. They went to different parts of the States too, Atlanta and parts like that, looking for work. They worked in the fields picking tomatoes JJ: Picking tomatoes? DR: -- okay? And actually, my dad got involved with the community through the churches, and my mom and dad worked with the churches in the communities. They worked with the priests, and they started creating new organizations and groups in the church. And they would have their own parties and stuff like that, and that was basically it. In those days, there were not that many Puerto Ricans in Chicago, okay? We were, I think, one of the first 40 or 50 families that were there, [00:02:00] and you were there. And you should know that too because you were part of the family, you know? And basically, we all went to school in the same area. We grew up together. Our family was really tight. We were always at parties together; you know, family reunions and things like that every year. I mean, basically, we saw each other all the time, okay? It was not a once a year thing, so we knew each other well, okay? It was more like one big family with sisters and cousins and brothers and stuff like that, you know? We watched out for each other, you know. JJ: So what do you mean? How did we see each other often in -- DR: Oh, we went all the time to the family parties, to the family reunions, to the church parties that were going on, the organizations they had going on. I would go all the time over where you were hanging out with the Young Lords, and I 2 �remember you used to get on the mic -- “That’s my little cousin going by me,” at the church on Dayton. I remember all of that stuff -JJ: Yeah, that [was fun?]. DR: -- and [00:03:00] then I remember there was a problem, okay? I was still kinda young. I remember one of the Ramos boys was shot or something like that. JJ: Manuel Ramos. DR: Manuel Ramos. JJ: Did you know the whole family, or...? DR: Well, Billy Ramos was one of the first musicians I worked with. JJ: Who? DR: Billy Ramos, William, his -- JJ: Oh, you did? DR: -- younger brother, and we went to school at the same school. JJ: I didn’t know that. So William Ramos was Manuel Ramos and Tyron Ramos’ brother? DR: Right. JJ: And what did he play? DR: He played timbales. JJ: He plays timables? DR: He’s a timbalero, yeah. JJ: Okay, so he was the little one. DR: He was the youngest that I remember. JJ: William Ramos? 3 �DR: Yeah, Willy Ramos. JJ: And then he played timbales for what band? DR: It was with -- JJ: I’m sorry. I have to -- (break in audio) DR: Yeah, Willy ran with -- JJ: Willy Ramos. DR: -- [Defunto’s?] brother, right. And basically, Billy was a timbalero, [00:04:00] went to school with us at -- JJ: What school? DR: Wasn’t that called -- what was that school? I can’t -- JJ: Franklin. You remember Franklin? DR: No, it was the Catholic school. JJ: Immaculate Conception? DR: No, it was by Sheffield and Armitage, the one over there. JJ: St. Teresa’s? DR: St. Teresa’s, okay. JJ: So he was going to St. Teresa’s with you? DR: Yeah, we went to St. Teresa’s. JJ: You went to St. Teresa’s? DR: Yeah, I went to St. Teresa’s. I went to also Immaculate Conception. He was also there with us too -- JJ: I remember that. 4 �DR: -- okay? And the first band he played with was a band that we called Latin Explosion. That was the first band that we played together in, but as far as bands go, that was not the first orchestra I heard. Oh, yeah, he also played in the very first kids band we ever had, which was in Immaculate Conception. JJ: You might have to repeat it for me. So this was Manuel Ramos from the Young Lords? DR: [00:05:00] Manuel Ramos from the Young Lords’ little brother, Billy Ramos. JJ: The one that got killed by the police? DR: Exactly. I remember it like today, the march and everything down there. JJ: What do you remember of the march? DR: What do I remember from the march? JJ: I mean, how did it -- DR: I remember it -- JJ: -- occur to you? DR: -- looked like an army coming down the street. I mean, I was a kid, you know. This is what we saw as kids. We saw this huge army coming in full gear, you know, coming down the streets, and we were like, “Wow, what’s going on here?” Carrying a coffin with the flag and all this stuff -- and I remember people screaming and crying. Really a shame, you know? Those were rough days. JJ: There were a lot of people? DR: There was thousands and thousands and thousands of people. I mean, it was -- JJ: Yeah, it was a lot. 5 �DR: -- thousands of people, yeah. There was definitely a lot of people. It looked like, I said, a sea of people. It looked like an army was marching through the city, you know what I mean? And those are the fresh memories that I have. JJ: Now, how did you feel? Because most of these were Puerto Ricans. DR: Well, you got to remember I was [00:06:00] young. I can tell you we took it like, “Okay, wow, that’s our community,” and we were proud, you know. But I didn’t realize exactly what was going on, you know? We looked at it more like, “Wow, Puerto Rican power! That’s [amazing?],” you know. But we weren’t really into the movement or anything, or looking into what was happening or anything. We just were riding with the crowd. The people that were feeling it, though -- later as I grew up, I thought about those things, and I remembered what I saw. And then I said, “Wow, that was really a sad situation,” you know? Those were turbulent times, you know, in Chicago. JJ: Turbulent times at that time? DR: That’s what it was, turbulent times. JJ: But how did the parents feel about it? DR: The parents? Well, you know the community in Chicago. Some of the family members were fine with it. Some weren’t. You know, some looked at it like, “If you are talking bad about the government and the United States, oh, they’re going to blacklist the whole family. Everybody’s in trouble,” this and that. [00:07:00] And they didn’t realize that there was just a movement going on, not only with the Puerto Rican community. It was going on in the Black community and even in the white community. It was going on in all the communities at that 6 �time. In the ’60s, there were just movements because people were fed up with politics as usual, and they just wanted to change things. Thus, Obama, (laughter) okay? JJ: Yeah. What was St. Teresa’s like? What type of population was there? DR: St. Teresa’s? Remember, it’s a Catholic school. Now, in the Puerto Rican community, their religion is real important. In those days, you couldn’t get smart with a nun. You couldn’t get smart with a priest. You wouldn’t think about saying anything wrong to any one of them. Okay, an example: if you were in a Catholic school like I was, in those days, the teachers had the right to spank you. They didn’t beat you up or anything, but they would take a ruler [00:08:00] and give you a quick thwack. And if you said something to one of these teachers, or if you went back to your parents and said, “The nun hit me --” “Oh, the nun hit you?” Bam, you get hit again because -- JJ: You get hit again. DR: -- yeah, you did something in front of them. If a nun hit you when you did something, you’re a bad boy, (laughs) you know? So that’s the way it was. So actually, I -- JJ: So what grades did you go? DR: All the way to eighth grade. JJ: So first to eighth grade? DR: From first to eighth grade. JJ: I was going to say I only went sixth, seventh, and eighth. 7 �DR: Oh, yeah, you’re lucky you went through those grades. No, I went from first to eighth, and after that, then I was thrown to the dogs at Tuley High School the first time I was ever in a public school. Shock treatment. It’s like, you know -- JJ: So where were you living at when you went to St. Teresa’s? DR: We were living on Armitage and Sheffield right in the heart of -- JJ: Right by Lincoln Park? DR: -- Lincoln Park. JJ: Armitage and Sheffield? DR: Armitage and Sheffield. JJ: And do you remember the address? DR: Nineteen Twenty, something [00:09:00] like that, Sheffield. JJ: Sheffield? DR: Yeah. JJ: Okay. And so what years are we talking about? DR: We’re talking about there 1968, ’69. JJ: Okay, that’s when the Young Lords were there. DR: Right, when the Young Lords were there. You guys were all over Dayton and -- JJ: We were all over Dayton? And what -- DR: The People’s Park had just been finished. JJ: So people knew about the People’s Park? DR: Yeah, everybody knew about the People’s Park. It was -- JJ: The whole community? 8 �DR: The whole community. I mean, all the kids after it was built -- that’s where they went, and everybody knew about the Young Lords. We also knew that the Young Lords were the only group that was really helping the community in those days. They started the lunch program for the kids. A lot of kids would go to school hungry in those days until that -- I remember the first day it started at our school, even. We were like, “Wow, free lunch today,” (laughs) and it was pretty good. JJ: (inaudible) DR: Exactly, you know, so they started that. And I remember they would come, and they would give shots to the kids at the church and [00:10:00] stuff like that. And they’d distribute out food to the -- I remember they worked with a lot of the poor women and the women that had children that didn’t have fathers. JJ: The daycare center. DR: The daycare center, exactly, and I remember all of that stuff. JJ: So the whole community was kind of involved in that whole thing? DR: The whole community was involved with it; basically the whole community. JJ: You’re talking about a big area? DR: No, we’re talking about a huge area. We’re talking about where all of the major population of the Puerto Ricans was in Chicago at that time. JJ: It was at -- DR: This was at Lincoln Park. JJ: -- Lincoln Park. 9 �DR: And the Division in Armitage of what they call the barrio now existed, but it was nothing like Lincoln Park. Lincoln Park was the area. That’s where the Young Lords were. That’s where the music was. That’s where the community leaders were. That’s where the organizations were. Everything was coming out of there. JJ: Out of Lincoln Park? DR: Out of the Lincoln Park area. JJ: And you mentioned the music. What kind of music were you hearing? DR: Well, okay, now the music is what I am. I’m a musician. JJ: You’re a musician. DR: [00:11:00] I’m a musician. I’ve been a musician all my life. You should know that. Basically, in those days or a little bit before that, the Puerto Ricans -- when they first got here, there was no salsa bands or no big, Latin jazz bands or any other kind of bands like that in Chicago. There was little combitos, and you know, whatever came from the island. JJ: You mean combos? DR: Little combos, you know, and trios and things like that, stuff that came from the island. A few guys got together here and there, and they made a little group or a little trio, or a little group -- JJ: Who were some of the trios that you remember? DR: Calpio y su Trio. JJ: Which one? DR: Calpio. JJ: Calpio? 10 �DR: [Luis Catala?], okay, and then the combitos were [Heberto?] y su Combo, [Carlito?] y Su Combo, Felipe y Su Combo, Vitin Santiago. Tony Quintana y Su Quinteto. You know, those were the little things, and that -- JJ: And these were in Chicago? DR: These were in Chicago, but they weren’t popular. [00:12:00] You know, that’s what they had, and so -- JJ: Because I remember Tony Quintana. DR: Well, Tony Quintana also had-- what do you call that? -- sold airline tickets in agencies. And plus, he had the TV show -- JJ: That’s right. That’s what I remember. DR: -- so that’s where he used to sell all his tickets. (laughs) Great guy, Tony; I love him. But anyway, so those guys were basically -- that’s what that was. They weren’t the best at what they did, but that’s what we had. And so whenever there was a party, that’s what came on. And people were happy to see it because they didn’t have anything else. All the sudden, the kids that were being born, me, us in general, and all the kids that were young at that time, didn’t get into Latin music immediately. We started playing rock and roll, and blues and soul music, and rhythm and blues, Santana music, and stuff like that. And they were all over us. “No, you guys can’t do that! No, [00:13:00] we need Latin bands!” I remember it at home constantly. “What are you doing? You’re playing this stuff. No, don’t you play any Jíbaro music?” “No, Pop, that’s for Jíbaros, you know.” We thought that was a saying that was like a hick, Jíbaro from the mountains, and we didn’t realize that we were laughing at our own culture. We were young. 11 �We weren’t born in Puerto Rico. We were born in Chicago and raised in Chicago. We had a conflict going on at home. We were being taught the Puerto Rican culture. And we would get on the streets, and then we were being taught the American culture. So it’s like, we had to mix ’em both together. JJ: I mean, what were some of the differences? DR: Some of the differences? The language, mainly. You would go out on the street all day. You’d be at school in English. Everything with your friends was in English. And now all the sudden, you came home, and you had to talk Spanish, I mean, because your parents didn’t talk English. They had just gotten here, gotten off the boat, you know what I’m saying? And they were still learning the language. A few broken words -- they knew [00:14:00] enough to get along on their jobs. JJ: What about their style versus what you were seeing at school, even the way they dressed and everything like that? I mean, what -- DR: Oh, yeah, that was different. JJ: Were you ever embarrassed? DR: We were greasers. (laughs) JJ: You were greasers? DR: We had greased back hair and everything. JJ: And dirty hair and everything like that. DR: Yeah, I mean, they dressed -- JJ: And it was really curly. DR: You know, exactly. 12 �JJ: Dry, curly hair. DR: Dry, curly hair. JJ: (inaudible) DR: Exactly, and we were greasers, man. You know, our mothers would come and iron our hair. (laughter) Remember that? JJ: I remember that, yeah. DR: And that was unbelievable, you know? “What are you doing to my hair? I have good hair,” you know? JJ: And that’s where your bad hair comes from. DR: Yeah, [it was like?], “Jesus.” That’s where it came from. That’s why they did that. Everybody was mixed like that, but that’s basically what it was like. JJ: And were you ever at all embarrassed of their style? DR: No, I can’t say I was ever -- actually, I was always [00:15:00] proud of my parents, and I was kinda proud of my whole family. I was proud of you. Many, many times, I would throw your name out. “Oh, my cousin’s Cha-Cha Jiménez.” (laughter) I was a young kid. You were Cha-Cha, you know, so many times, I put you out there. I put you on the line, man. And my parents both worked with the community and the churches and stuff, so I was really proud of them too. JJ: So they were working with the community? DR: Yeah. Actually, that’s what made me -- JJ: So what was your father’s involvement? DR: My father was involved with the Caballeros de San Juan, with the (Spanish) [00:15:32] with the Hermanos de la Familia de Dios. You know, they’d do 13 �dances for the community, and they hired bands from out of town. And they would come in, and they would play, I mean, big dances. One time, they brought Tito Rodríguez, and that was huge for the Puerto Rican community. And El Gran Combo, another time, they brung. The first time Gran Combo came, the Caballeros de San Juan brung him. JJ: Oh, the Caballeros de San Juan brung him at that time? DR: Now, [00:16:00] in those days, there was one Latin band. (laughs) JJ: One Latin band? DR: One salsa band, I’m going to say, not Latin. JJ: In Chicago? DR: One salsa band, and the salsa movement was starting up in the ’60s too. And all the sudden, that band started up, which was La Conquistadora -- JJ: La Conquistadora. DR: -- which was (Spanish) [00:16:18] our family members too. JJ: They were part of it? DR: Yeah, they were our family members. JJ: (Spanish) [00:16:24]? DR: Jesus Rodriguez. JJ: And Jesus Rodriguez was also from the Caballeros de San Juan? DR: Exactly, our cousins. JJ: So they were...? DR: They had a band called La Conquistadora, and -- JJ: That was the only band? 14 �DR: That was the only band, and they would play all the dances for the Caballeros de San Juan, unless they were bringing somebody else from out of town. That’s what actually got me started into salsa music because I went to one of the rehearsals, and I saw them rehearsing. And I said, “Geez, these are my cousins. This is something I never heard before.” I was playing rock and roll, and Ricky was playing rock and roll. [00:17:00] He had a band too. JJ: Ricky, our cousin? DR: Ricky, our other cousin. He had a band of his own, and they were all playing rock and roll, and Beatles stuff and stuff like this. And all the sudden, I heard our other cousins that came from the island were playing this. And then I said, “Wait, what’s this?” JJ: And so -- DR As far as I was concerned, Latin music was cuatros, you know, jibaro music, trio music, and bolero music, you know what I mean? JJ: But you played the bass. DR: Right, so as far as I’m concerned, that’s basically what I thought Puerto Ricans had until I was awakened. And I said, “Wait a minute, these people have big bands. I want to know a little bit more about my culture.” And then so actually, that was part of our family (inaudible) too because -- JJ: So here, we had a family in Puerto Rico that’s playing one type of music, and a family in Chicago playing it differently? DR: Completely. JJ: Completely different? 15 �DR: Completely different. JJ: But then -- DR: And then when they came to Chicago -- JJ: So when this was awakened in your eyes, it was like you had to learn both cultures? DR: I had to learn both, [00:18:00] exactly. That’s why -- JJ: Because that was really Puerto Rican. They were both Puerto Rican. DR: Exactly, that’s the way it was. Both cultures needed to be learned. JJ: And so which -- DR: And not only that because don’t forget that by that time, we were getting older. Our parents were starting to take us out to the parties. You know, we were 12, 13 years old by then, 14, and so they wanted music for the kids too, for the teenagers. So they would hire a band that could play Latin music and American music. Thus, Ricky makes a little bust in La Conquistadora. Then finally, in about 1968, ’69, completely everything changes. I heard some stuff from a guy out of New York called Willie Colón, and it was being played in all the bars. And Willie Colón and Héctor Lavoe got really big in Chicago, and they were the ones that you could say [00:19:00] basically got all the bands to switch over from rock and blues and jazz to start playing salsa, okay? When Willie Colón hit the scene, all the bands in Chicago wanted to play that stuff. Back then, they weren’t -- JJ: So what are some of the bands at this time that you can -- DR: There was a band called the Soul Medallions. I don’t know if you remember the Soul Medallions. 16 �JJ: [I can’t say that I do?]. DR: They were the hottest band. They were everywhere. JJ: What type of music did they play? DR: They played salsa. They played Joe Cuba stuff because they had vibes, so they played a lot of Joe Cuba stuff with Cheo Feliciano singing and stuff like that. Great stuff. And then came La Justicia. And when La Justicia came out, they were actually a band called The Mystics, but they were rhythm and blues and soul music. And they broke up, and they knew -- JJ: They were The Mystics first, and they played rhythm and soul? Because I remember those type of bands too. DR: Right, they were The Mystics. JJ: The Mystics. DR: [00:20:00] They switched from being a rhythm and soul band, they switched completely over to a salsa band -- JJ: A salsa band. DR: -- okay? And La Solución was originally a Santana band, but before that, you had -- JJ: You were in La Solución. DR: I had La Solución, but before that, there was, like I said, the Soul Medallions, La Justicia, La Confidencia, Oportunidad, La Unión, La Solución, La Humanidad, La Liberación, Latin Explosion, Heberto y Sus Estrellas -- Jesus, there’s so many bands and -- JJ: This was in the ’60s? 17 �DR: This was during the ’60s, yeah. JJ: The middle or late ’60s? DR: No, these were from about ’68 to about ’77, ’78. JJ: And they were playing in what neighborhoods? DR: They were playing in all the Puerto Rican neighborhoods, in all the American neighborhoods. We had all the neighborhoods. JJ: So they were making money? DR: Yes, definitely, and we were in the Black neighborhoods. We were in the American neighborhoods. We were in the Italian neighborhoods. What happened was when that music hit the scene, [00:21:00] all the people in Chicago, all the promoters -- and I’m not talking about just Latino promoters. The American promoters were freaking out because all of the sudden, they were having all of these kinds of people showing up at, say, the Aragon Ballroom. You know, usually, they would have to hire an act from out of town or from Europe or from some other place to fill the Aragon Ballroom. This is the largest dancing ballroom in Chicago. It’s a huge venue, and so they would have to call people up there to fill this place, you know? Now, all the sudden, you had a bunch of local bands. Any one of ’em could fill the Aragon by itself, and it was a local band. And they were from the Puerto Rican community, which was a limited population, so they were like, “What the heck is going on here?” We actually went to play at Waller High School one time, [00:22:00] and that’s when we realized what we were doing and what was happening. The girls started throwing things at us, their underclothes. (laughs) We were like, “Wow, like we’re The Beatles or 18 �something?” So when we were trying to leave, they caused a huge riot. They had to call the police and everything. The police show up at Waller High School. “It’s a regular workday. What’s going on?” They show up and go, “Oh, man, you kids. We’ve heard about you guys. Yeah, no, you guys can’t play anymore unless you have a police escort.” So for about three months there at a certain point, because we’re -JJ: And what band was this? DR: La Solución. JJ: La Solución, okay. DR: For about three months there, we actually had to tell ’em where we were going to play so that they would know that we were in the area. And they would have a little bit more police in the area because it was just unbelievable. You did something yourself, which I always remember. [00:23:00] After Hector and Willie broke up, Héctor Lavoe and Willie Colón, you were the guy that finally got ’em together to do one show before they finally -- they never did anything else after that together. It was -- JJ: Oh, they didn’t do it after that? DR: No, and that was at Humboldt Park when you brung them in. I think that was -- JJ: That was in ’83. DR: In ’83, yeah. JJ: June of ’83. DR: Exactly, and -- JJ: That’s when we -- 19 �DR: -- that came out in the paper. Over 100,000 Puerto Ricans showed up for that concert. JJ: You played that, didn’t you? DR: My band, definitely. (laughs) JJ: I remember you were cheering for me. DR: Oh, definitely, yeah. But besides that, we had many orchestras. I had many -- JJ: Now, can you describe that day? Because that’s kind of important in our history. DR: That day was big. JJ: And how was your -- DR: Oh, no, you know, everybody was waiting for it. Everybody said first, when it was announced, “Willie Colón and Héctor Lavoe? They broke up. They hate each other.” (laughs) I mean, they hated each other. And I don’t know what you did, but the buzz was for about four weeks -- JJ: It’s called money. We paid them money. DR: Money. (laughter) Okay, [00:24:00] that’s probably what it is, money. JJ: We had money then. DR: Yeah, well, they showed up, and the people just wanted to go crazy. I mean, that was a big thing for Chicago. Even New York has to remember, and Puerto Rico has to. I mean, they have to bow to that. JJ: And you said it was a big thing for Chicago. What do you mean? DR: Well, it was the most important venue Willie Colón and Héctor Lavoe that I could say ever played because they literally drove 100,000 people by themselves -- JJ: To that event. 20 �DR: -- to that event, and it was done in Chicago. JJ: And the Young Lords had something to do with it. In fact, I was the -- DR: You were the only one, exactly. JJ: -- only one onstage. DR: Cha-Cha Jiménez. JJ: Yeah, so that was (inaudible). DR: So those were the days, and I remember also many of the musicians. I have to mention a few of these musicians -- they were good musicians -- like Ella Martinez, Jesús Soto; Edwin Rodriguez, my own brother; Hector del Valle. These are cats that -- they’re still playing, and they’re still out there [00:25:00] making good money. And they’re playing with big people and big stars. And they weren’t given as much credit as they should’ve gotten because there was so much trouble and static going on in the community at those times, you know? A lot of headhunting went on with the bands in those days too. JJ: What do you mean, headhunting? DR: Well, “My band’s better than your band.” They would go out there and actually try to take your gig. They’d show up with their whole band at your dance and try to take your gig. “Oh, let me play two sets there for free, and I’ll show you how good my band is,” (laughs) and they tried to take your work. JJ: You had competition, eh? DR: A lot of competition, which was bad because we didn’t need that in Chicago. It wasn’t as big as New York, and the population wasn’t as big as New York or Puerto Rico, so they were basically cutting each other’s throats. And we were 21 �seeing these people every day. We were seeing each other’s faces every day, and we’re cutting each other’s throats every day. It wasn’t good. It’s not like, you know, we saw this guy once in a [00:26:00] while. The community was so strong that we saw them all the time, so it’s like, “I know what you did.” So there was a lot of static that happened because of that. It was a different scene than New York or Puerto Rico. Chicago was different. JJ: What do you mean? DR: Well, remember, Chicago is an industrial city. People, when they moved there, they went to work. Parties in Chicago are basically Friday, Saturday, and Sunday, okay? It’s not a tourist city like New York or Miami or Puerto Rico or San Juan. You know, they live off the tourism label. How many millions and millions of people go to New York every year, the Big Apple, or Miami or Puerto Rico for their vacations, stuff like that? And so there’s a lot of parties, and a bigger venue for orchestras and for musicians. In Chicago, no. Chicago’s completely different. It’s a working class city, [00:27:00] okay? It’s an industrial city, and you work all week long. And Friday, Saturday, and Sunday is when you go out and party with your wife or with your girlfriend or whatever, and that’s when you go and see the musicians. And most of the musicians out there hold steady jobs, and I ain’t talking about musicians that, when they leave, play with the best bands in the world and they don’t have to work again in a factory. They just stay there because they have a job. You know, once you have a job, and you’re raising a family, you’re not going to be jumping from place to place or doing things like that. So the way I see it -- the settling of the Puerto Rican 22 �community in Chicago was done by the sons and daughters, not really the fathers and mothers, because a lot of the fathers and mothers packed up and left. And they’re still packing up and leaving, most of ’em, but their sons and daughters were raised there and born there. That’s what they know, so they’re staying there now, that first generation. Chicago is [00:28:00] actually, in my opinion, being built now. JJ: It’s being built now? DR: It’s being built now, in my opinion, by the kids that were left behind, by the first and second generation of Puerto Ricans that are starting to get into their fifties and their forties and that now. And they’re the ones making community movements and doing stuff with the community, and working with the new kids. And their kids are being born now, and their kids are starting to become teenagers and things like that. So yeah, in my opinion, now Chicago is actually being built as far as the community. That’s the way I see it. JJ: And you -- DR: But it couldn’t have been done without any of the struggles that were dealt. I mean, it just wouldn’t exist at all without what happened in the ’60s and the ’70s there. JJ: Which ones? DR: I mean, you have to realize there was a machine called the Daley Machine in Chicago. He was doing everything possible to clear out all the Latinos there in Chicago, okay? JJ: He didn’t like Latinos, [00:29:00] or he just didn’t like their neighborhood? 23 �DR: He just didn’t like their neighborhood, I think. It wasn’t so much a personal thing. I think it was more like, “We were here first,” that kind of a thing. He was Irish, then you had the Italian community add on next to it. So the Irish are coming down on us, you had the Italians, and they were their first. You had the mob and the Italianos. You’ve got the Irish mob, which is the police in Chicago, and you got, I mean, Daley’s gestapo. That’s what we used to call them, the Daley gestapo, the Irish cops, and then you had the Italian real mob. And then all of the sudden, you’re seeing these Puerto Ricans who aren’t scared of anything, (laughter) and they’re fighting with everybody. “We don’t care. No, get out of here!” “No, you make us move.” JJ: So what was -- DR: That was our attitude. JJ: So this is a physical thing? DR: Well, there was a physical thing going on, yeah. JJ: There was a physical thing? DR: There [00:30:00] was a physical thing, of course. I mean, you couldn’t walk through that neighborhood without being -- you had to run through the neighborhood. (laughter) Otherwise, you weren’t going to get out of their neighborhood, okay? That’s the way it was. JJ: Yeah, we had a motorcycle. DR: Yeah, the little motor. JJ: We came through the park. 24 �DR: Yeah, you just couldn’t get out of those neighborhoods, so it was bad. I remember one of our bass players from one of our bands was on the way over to rehearsal one time. He finally showed up at the rehearsal all beat up; broken nose, broken arm, this and that. Oh, the whole band ran out. “What happened?” “The Gaylords.” (laughter) Remember the Gaylords? They were basically American greasers, a hillbilly gang. JJ: So you’re talking about some of the gangs. The band had to fight the gangs? DR: Actually, most of the bands in Chicago were ex-gangbangers. (laughs) JJ: So they came out of the gangs, then? DR: Yeah, because if you weren’t in one, you had few probabilities of surviving. JJ: So you had to be in the gang at the time? Is that what you’re saying? DR: [00:31:00] Not so much be in it, but associated with it. JJ: Associated with it. DR: Yeah, you had to be associated. You didn’t have to really be in it. But if you associated with them, and trouble happened and you didn’t show your face, then you were also in trouble -- JJ: Also in trouble? DR: -- okay? So without coming out all the time and saying, “Yeah, I’m this,” or, “I’m that;” you know, just by saying, “Oh, I live here,” and, “That’s where I’m at.” JJ: So wherever you lived, you were part of the gang? DR: That’s basically it. JJ: That’s what it was. DR: If you wanted to live there in peace, that’s what it was. 25 �JJ: Now, to change the subject, I just wanted to make sure that -- there was the Puerto Rican Congress, and there was also Caribe Ruiz? DR: No, all in one. The Puerto Rican Congress was owned by Carlos “Caribe” Ruiz. That’s where all the bands were, and that’s -- JJ: That started on Larabee and North Avenue? DR: They started on Larabee and North Avenue. JJ: Were you there on Larabee and North Avenue? DR: No, I was not. I show up on the scene on 11th and North Avenue. JJ: So 11th and North Avenue? DR: That’s where [00:32:00] it became, really, the Congress; where they painted the murals and everything. JJ: So that was the Puerto Rican Congress there? DR: That was the Puerto Rican Congress. JJ: They moved to there? DR: They moved to there. JJ: So they used to be on Larabee and North Avenue? DR: They had the club on Larabee and North Avenue. That was the first Puerto Rican club. JJ: So it kind of moved west? DR: Right. That’s where all you guys went when you -- JJ: Right. When we were young, we used to go there. DR: That’s where you guys went. The first Puerto Ricans that got there -- that’s where they went. 26 �JJ: Because that’s where the Puerto Rican Parade was. DR: Exactly, that’s where the first Puerto Rican Parade -- which was Caribe that did it. JJ: Caribe Ruiz was part of it? DR: Caribe Ruiz was in the -- JJ: And the Caballeros de San Juan. DR: And the Caballeros de San Juan, and then he got into working with the kids in the community. That’s when all the bands were created. All those bands -- JJ: So what year was that? That’s what I’m trying to see. Can you explain a little bit about him, or...? DR: Caribe? JJ: Yeah, about Caribe. DR: Okay, so I can go as far as La Justicia with Caribe. Caribe started the bands; that’s where I come in. I can tell you Caribe really started the orchestras in Chicago. I’m not [00:33:00] saying he started the bands. The bands started themselves, but he took over them and he pushed ’em. And he was the one that gave them their names. He was the one that promoted ’em, and without him, none of those bands would’ve had any recognition at all. I mean, I have to be honest about that. A lot of people throw (Spanish) [00:33:16] on Caribe. They didn’t like him because he did so much. It was basically because they were just jealous. For me, they just didn’t like him because they were jealous. I couldn’t find any other reason. They would say this about him, and they would say that about him when it all came down to this. They were unhappy because he was getting money for the bands, and he had seven, eight bands. He had the 27 �majority of the bands, and they were all the best bands. He started ’em himself. You know, he pushed these bands. He bought them equipment. He got every band a brand new PA, every band new amps, every band new personal instruments, everybody band brand new uniforms. Every band was recording, [00:34:00] you know, and Caribe did this. Before that, there was nothing coming out of Chicago. JJ: So he was managing. He was making money, but he was using that money to promote the bands. DR: He was reinvesting it. He was always reinvesting -- JJ: Reinvesting it. DR: -- the money. And usually, 90 percent of the musicians would come to him during the week. “Hey, Caribe, I need 20 or 30 bucks.” He was like a little piggy bank. Every day, 20 or 30 musicians would say, “Give me some money,” and he was just passing -- he never said no. Never, so we never had to really -- and plus, we got paid at our gigs. (laughs) JJ: For a change, yeah. DR: For a change. JJ: He made sure that, you know -- but there’s no free beer here. You had to play for it. DR: Exactly, so that’s basically what was going on with Caribe. Caribe also was involved with a lot of community organizations. The Trina Davila Center -- he worked with you guys -- JJ: Yeah, with the Young Lords. 28 �DR: -- the Young Lords, many times, and he also gave music for you for whatever kind of occasion you guys needed. We did a [00:35:00] lot of work with the community organizations, a lot of it, and that was another good thing that the bands did. That helps the community. JJ: So he promoted the salsa in Chicago and Hispanic music. DR: All of it. He definitely promoted all the salsa in Chicago, all of it. JJ: Because like you said, there was some bands before that were playing, but they had some -- DR: They never really did anything. None of those bands that I mentioned before ever really made any noise, how do you say. They broke up. The bands after that, though, that Caribe handled, they all had a name. They were all recognized through all Latin -- I mean, everywhere you went, they knew about the bands in Chicago. JJ: Some of them, I remember. I’m just trying to find those other bands who came back from Lincoln Park, any salsa bands. DR: Well, definitely, I’ll tell you what -- JJ: Well, the Puerto Rican Congress was the -- DR: -- La León, La Solución, most of the guys from La Justicia, most of the guys from La Confidencia -- JJ: Were from Lincoln Park? DR: They were all from Lincoln Park too, [00:36:00] yeah. JJ: They were all from Lincoln Park, okay. DR: That’s where they were born. You know, they took -- 29 �JJ: Okay, [now even?] before that summer, some of the guys were -- wherever they lived, they had to be part of the gang. So when you lived there, what was the gang there? DR: (laughter) There was a gang there. JJ: Weren’t you part of a group, or no? DR: I was recognized as part of a group. JJ: Okay, what was that group? You weren’t in the group? DR: My brothers and I -- no, I was never in the group. I was just recognized as part of the group, okay? The Latin Kings. JJ: The Latin Kings? Okay. DR: Lived there all of my life on Sheffield and Armitage, Armitage and Richmond. I always lived in Latin Kings territory. Actually, I was one of the original Pee Wees from Dayton and Armitage. (laughs) JJ: You were one [00:37:00] of the Pee Wees from where? DR: Dayton and Armitage. JJ: And then the -- DR: Piso, Wiso, Baby, me -- we had Frankie, a bunch of guys. JJ: In the Latin Kings? Okay, because that was turned into the Medinas -- were they part of that group? DR: Yeah, they were part of that group. JJ: So they were part of that group. DR: They were all part of that group, but that’s something today I won’t dwell on. You know, those are -- 30 �JJ: Because when you’re growing up, you do -- DR: Growing up, exactly. You grow up, and it’s a life experience. JJ: Because you said you were in that part of Chicago. DR: And actually, when we got into the music thing, I would go and play in all those rival gang territories. And they recognized me all the time. And, you know, I told ’em, “Listen, I’m a musician, man.” “We know, man. Don’t worry about it.” JJ: But didn’t you tell me some stories about -- you had to duck a few times? DR: Well, yeah, we had to duck quite a few times, you know? JJ: So give me an example. DR: Okay, here’s a good example. We went to play at a place up on the northside in [00:38:00] the Lake View area. (laughter) And we get to this place. It was a house party, and the band was playing. And some of the guys recognized the guys in the band, and they said, “Man, half that band is Latin Kings.” It was a house party for another gang, so finally, they realized. And I had to go to the guy, and I said, “Listen, you know, your buddies want to tear us apart, man. I mean, we’re going to have to defend ourselves here in a few seconds, you know. What are you going to do? I mean, you hired us to play here. You knew that this was going to --” “No, don’t worry. I’ll take care of the situation.” This is the way they take care of that situation: they line up seven guys in front of the orchestra with bats and knives. (laughter) And they say, “The first one that dares touch any one of these guys has to cross this line.” And we played the rest of the night with seven guys in front of [00:39:00] the band. JJ: That’s the way it was. 31 �DR: I’m not kidding. This actually happened. God, Jimmy, I hope you remember that. (laughter) Actually, when we left, though -- the protection ends at the door. JJ: When you had to leave? DR: The protection ends at the door. Once you load that car, and that last guy walks out that door, jump in the car and run as fast as you can because -- “Bananas! Bananas!” And they start throwing everything they can. JJ: That’s what they used to call the Kings back then? DR: Bananas -- JJ: Because of their colors? DR: -- because of their colors, yeah, so that’s basically what happened there. I can name you bad times with the bands. When the bands were first starting in Chicago, a lot of them didn’t sound that great, okay? They were young kids, remember, that were learning. JJ: So you -- DR: And all the old folks wanted to see their kids playing, so they were hiring these kids to play with -- JJ: It’s a learning [00:40:00] process. DR: -- exorbitant amounts of money, okay? They were paying money for these kids that were learning, okay? And so we went to play at this place in Gary, Indiana one time, La Solución Orchestra, and I remember being on stage. And the band had only been together about three or four months, and it wasn’t a band yet, okay? It was a bunch of noise still, but they hired us. And they hired La Justicia Orchestra, thank God. Those guys were always La Solución’s best friends, 32 �okay? And people booed us off the stage. They booed the band literally. Some of the guys started crying. Remember, we had guys in the band who were 13 years old. Some were as young as 12, 14, 15. I was one of the older ones at 16, and a few of the other guys started crying. They had nerves back then. They started just crying. A lot of them wanted to stop playing music permanently, and I remember the manager and the guys [00:41:00] from La Justicia coming up and saying, “Listen, man, don’t worry about it. One day, they’re going to wish they can get your band in there.” And, you know, about four or five years later when La Solución really hottest thing there was, there was -- we had just come back from Puerto Rico. We were traveling. We had our records out. We were the band, and we had gone back to Indiana many times but for other people. And we were making them pay the price. (laughter) We remembered all the time what had happened in Indiana, so every time they mentioned Indiana, you know, if it was a regular 2,000 dollars, we’d go, “No, 4,000 dollars. You want us to move? That’s it.” So I walked into the Congress one time; Caribe was there. I went to get Caribe to give me some money. (laughs) I walk in, and Caribe goes, “Hey, Dave, how you doin’? You need some money?” And I go, “Yeah, I need some money.” He goes, “Sit [00:42:00] down. Hey, you know who this man is here?” I’m looking at the guy going, “Actually, no.” And Caribe goes, “This is the bass player from La Solución.” The guy gets up and -- “Oh, it’s a pleasure to meet you,” and this and that. “Oh, yeah, sure. Nice to meet you,” and this and that. And Caribe goes, “Remember that time we played in Indiana, that they booed you guys off the stage, and the owner of the dance came up and said, 33 �‘Don’t ever bring me these kids again’? He wants to hire the band now.” (laughter) It was him. And I looked at the guy, and I go, “Really?” And the guy goes, “Yeah, but you know, you guys were young.” And I go, “Yeah, but you didn’t want to give us a break. Look what we are now.” You know, I told him just like that, but we gave him a break coming down to three or four hundred dollars’ difference. We still screwed him. (laughs) Is that allowed to be said? JJ: (laughs) Yeah, you can say that. So where are you at today? You’re living in Puerto Rico, and -- DR: I live in Arroyo, Puerto Rico. I’ve been living here [00:43:00] now 12 years, and I play -- JJ: Why did you decide to come down here? DR: I had some back surgery done. I won some money in a lawsuit, and I always wanted to move to Puerto Rico because of the music. I just wanted to move here, you know? I wanted to try something else in Latin music because Chicago had run out of its boundaries for me. It wasn’t doing what I wanted to hear, so I came here to try some different stuff. Actually, I’ve gone good so far, so... JJ: And [what do you play?]? DR: Well, I play with the Puerto Rico Latin Xpress Orchestra. That’s my orchestra with Tino Sanchez, one of the best known bass players in Latin music. And I play with some of the best musicians in Latin music, and they’re part of my orchestra. We got Monty Montgomery. He also plays with Víctor Manuelle, Fania All-Stars and everybody. And [Willy Trompeta?], William Santiago played with (inaudible) and with [Marina Dión?], many of the [00:44:00] big bands too. I 34 �have, on the piano, Ricky Rodríguez. He directs Lalo Rodríguez’s orchestra. Singing, I have -- on this CD, the new one, it’s Ito Rivera. He used to sing with the Puerto Rican Power, and his brother is Jerry Rivera, the singer that’s out there. JJ: He’s in the band right now? DR: But Ito was famous before Jerry, trust me. Make sure you say that. (laughs) JJ: Yeah, he’s been around. DR: Yeah, Ito was with the Puerto Rican Power. JJ: But Jerry’s his brother? DR: His brother Jerry, yeah. And I have musicians like Milo Orta, Choco Orta’s brother, and I also have musicians like Lester [Ojeda?]. And he used to play with Impacto Crea. I also have Pablo Cardenas. [00:45:00] He’s a master progressionist and altoist. The guys I’m mentioning, these are very, very good musicians. It’s a different style. You know, in Chicago, you play with good musicians locally, but when I came here, I was offered the chance to play with some of the top talents. That’s what I’m working with, some of the top talent here and -- JJ: What are some of the places you’re playing now? DR: Oh, we play everywhere, all around the island. For example, right now, I have something going on with American Health Medicare where I do some stuff during the day so that I’m at different venues all over the island. Next month, for example, I’ll be in Guayama, Salinas. I’ll be in Fajardo, I’ll be in Orocovis, and then Mayagüez. Those are daytime venues. Most of the weekends, I’m at the 35 �Gran Melia Hotel in Rio Grande with a small Latin jazz ensemble. That’s Monty’s group, and I play with them. [00:46:00] And plus, I play with everybody who calls me. I just recorded one tune on Tito Rojas’ new CD. Cut number five is dedicated to his father. He called me to do a bit, so... JJ: And so it was always your ambition to get into music? I mean, why did you start thinking about music? I mean -- DR: I don’t know. (laughs) That’s a good question. I mean, as far as I can remember, I always -- JJ: Because what is the music instrument that you play? DR: I play the tres, but I didn’t start on the tres. I started off on an accordion. The first instrument I ever picked up in my life was an accordion. JJ: And how did you get with that? DR: We lived on Bissell and Armitage, and Don Lulu’s? daughters were taking accordion -- JJ: Don Lulu? DR: Don Lulu. JJ: Lulu? DR: Lulu; that was the owner of the building. His daughters were taking accordion lessons, and [00:47:00] they were teenagers. I was a kid. Now, every time they came home with their accordions, I would start making noise. And then they freaked out because I started playing something, [on the accordian?] I guess. And my dad made me take accordion lessons. My friends would be outside 36 �playing, and I’d be in the kitchen sitting with my dad cooking. “You did it wrong! (laughter) Play it again.” JJ: He was your teacher, or...? DR: Well, he was -- JJ: Your coach. DR: My coach, yeah. He was the one with the whip, (laughter) so that’s what was going on there. Then after that, I had some family members like Ricky and Paolo, my uncle and my cousin. They played guitars and a cuatro, and every time we went to their house, I would grab their instruments. And Ricky had a Mustang. JJ: So when would you go to their house at this -- DR: Every day, almost. JJ: Oh, because I didn’t -- DR: Almost every day, you know. JJ: I was going to say -- DR: Yeah, no, we were raised together [00:48:00] basically. You know, if it wasn’t every day, it was every week. We saw each other three or four times a week. You know, that’s the kind of thing it was, and I would go to his house and grab his instrument. And I mean, they would make me play on the bed because they didn’t want me to drop it. Ricky had a proud, white guitar; a Fender Mustang. It was one of the first ones they had of that white guitar, you know, that Fender Mustang, and he was really proud of that guitar. And I would go grab it. (laughs) I’m banging on that thing, so he decided to teach me a couple chords. And they 37 �taught me a couple chords, and from there on, I went by myself. My brother Edwin, who ended up playing trombone, he taught me a couple chords. He won a contest for something somewhere. JJ: Edwin? DR: Edwin. And the contest winner was going to get some free guitar lessons, so I made him go to class. He didn’t want to go. (laughter) I would make him go to class and then [00:49:00] come home and teach me, “Or I’ll beat you up.” That’s what went on, and he taught me the chords. And that’s exactly what happened. JJ: Okay, your brother Edwin -- DR: Yeah, he’ll remind you of it too if you talk to him. JJ: “Oh, he would beat up everybody back then.” DR: Yeah, he’ll remind you of it too. “Oh, yeah, he used to beat me up if I didn’t teach him the chords.” That’s the way he was, but that’s exactly how I learned how to play. I wanted to learn so bad that I would do whatever it took to learn. JJ: So there’s Edwin and how many else in your family? DR: Everybody at home was musicians. Everybody did something as far as musically. It’s me, Ruth -- JJ: What did Ruth do? DR: Ruth sang. JJ: She sang? DR: Ruth sang, and Junior sings. And -- JJ: You said Ruth with a T, or...? DR: Ruth. 38 �JJ: How would you spell that? DR: R-U-T-H. JJ: T-H, Ruth. DR: Like the Bible stories. JJ: And she sang? What kind of music did she -- DR: (laughs) Ruth used to love Donnie and Marie Osmond. JJ: Really? DR: I’m looking at [00:50:00] you, girl. (laughter) Donnie and Marie Osmond. I mean, really, really big fans of “One Bad Apple.” And my brother, Junior -- Dean Martin and Frank Sinatra. How far can you get from Puerto Rico? (laughter) Nah, he’s a crooner. He’s won karaoke contests singing Dean Martin and Frank Sinatra. JJ: Did he? DR: Yeah, he’s a crooner, man. He’s definitely a crooner. He sounds like Dean Martin. JJ: Does he? Wow. DR: Really good. And me and Edwin and Jesse were the musician-musicians that played. Edwin and Jesse both play trombones. JJ: Edwin and Jesse? DR: Jesse’s still playing. Edwin retired a while ago, but Jesse’s still playing, and I play the tres. JJ: The tres? Okay, but why did you pick the tres? Was that -- 39 �DR: Actually, I had started off on the guitar, and like I said, I started playing many instruments. I played accordion. I played [00:51:00] drums. I played guitar. I played bass. I even tried a little bit of marimba. JJ: Because isn’t the tres Cuban? DR: Yeah, the tres is Cuban, and I tried cuatro -- JJ: So cuatro went bad for you (inaudible)? DR: No, it wasn’t nothing like that. What happened was that when I got into Latin music, salsa, I was hearing an instrument in the background of some of the salsa bands. And I was saying, “But that’s not a cuatro,” because I knew the sound of the cuatro. I said, “Well, what instrument is that,” you know? And Caribe was saying, “No, that’s a cuatro.” I said, “No, that is not a cuatro. That’s something else.” Finally, Albert Martinez, La Justicia Alfie, says, “No, that’s a thing called a tres. It’s a Cuban instrument, and they play it with the salsa bands and stuff like that.” I go, “Yeah? I want to learn how to play that,” because I really liked it. And Caribe gave me one on my 18th birthday, and it was a gift that he had given to someone else that didn’t [00:52:00] do anything with it. So he took it from him and gave it to me. A week later, I was playing all the songs in the band on it. I learned all that literally in one week. I learned all the songs in the band. I wasn’t quote, unquote, “a monster” on the tres, but I was playing the tres in all the songs in the band in one week. It’s something that other musicians couldn’t -- after two years, they’d give it up because they’d get one wrong. I don’t know. It was an instrument that I caught right away, and I understood it immediately. I could tell I knew exactly what it was, and I knew how to play it. I felt it, and that’s why I 40 �ended up on the tres, and thank God. I made a lot of money playing the tres. (laughs) Hang on one second. JJ: Can you remind me -- yeah, let’s wait a second. DR: Yeah, wait one second. Yeah, I -- (break in audio) JJ: And you said in Lincoln Park, that the Young Lords hung out? DR: Lincoln Park. JJ: We’re ready to go, right? M1: [00:53:00] Go ahead. JJ: Okay, if you can tell me -- we were talking about the Young Lords and when the FBI was coming to your house. Can you explain that? DR: Okay, that was in about ’65, ’66, ’67, those years. JJ: This was probably later in ’68 after the Young Lords had the -- DR: Right, after their whole thing -- JJ: It was the -- DR: -- okay? Yeah, man, ’67 or ’68 around there. You’re right. JJ: Yeah, with the -- DR: Okay, what happened was -- I remember getting up to go to school in the mornings, and there were black cars parked in front of the house. The FBI was sitting there in front of the house. The story I had from my folks was that at that time, they were looking for you, the FBI. JJ: For Cha-Cha Jiménez? 41 �DR: For Cha-Cha Jiménez because of the Young Lords thing. They were considering you guys a militant group and all this stuff. You know, you were anti-American for them. They didn’t know that all you were looking for was just to help the [00:54:00] community, so you were screaming that you were anti-American, you know? That’s the way it was in those days, so what happened was -- JJ: But why were they at your house? DR: -- that they knew that you were our family. And my dad offered to let you stay there a few times while you were dodging all -- they knew this, and they called my dad and my mom. They said, “You know, you have one daughter,” my sister Ruth. “It’d be a shame if anything happened to her because Cha-Cha’s living in your house.” JJ: So they were threatening her? DR: Oh, it was a direct threat. It’s -- JJ: I mean, your father tells you this? DR: Yeah, sure, my parents told us that. That was a threat from the FBI. They basically told ’em, “Get him out, or else something might happen to your kids.” That’s basically what they threatened. And I remember we’d go to school and -- JJ: The reason for that -- I was staying there at the time? DR: Exactly. JJ: So they said, you know, “Get him out, or something might happen.” DR: “Get him out, or something bad could happen to your daughter,” and that was [00:55:00] my dad’s pride and joy, Ruth, his only daughter, okay? That was his baby, period. He didn’t have four sons. He had one daughter. (laughter) That’s 42 �what he had, all right? So basically, like I said, we would go to school in the mornings, and they’d be there. When we’d come back, they’d be there. We’d go out to play? They’d be there. We’d leave someplace with the family? They’d follow us. That’s the way it was. We’d get on the bus, and they’d follow the bus. And we’re looking out the back. “There they come.” (laughs) JJ: So you remember seeing them? DR: Yah, all the time. JJ: And you said that -- DR: Oh, I would get in trouble because I was always looking at them. And my mom -“Quit looking,” you know, that kinda stuff, so I would get in trouble constantly. I was always reminded not to look at them. JJ: So this was something that you talked about in your family? DR: Oh, yeah. Well, we didn’t talk about it all the time. We kept it quiet. We talked about it when it had to be talked about when they’d mention it once [00:56:00] in a while, but most of the time, it was like, “Shh!” JJ: But you did talk about it? DR: We did talk about it, yeah. JJ: And so the whole family was aware? DR: Oh, the whole family was aware, yeah. JJ: And they knew this was FBI? DR: The whole family was aware that this was FBI -- JJ: And they knew this was (inaudible)? DR: No, it was nothing. There was no -- 43 �JJ: And how did you know it was FBI? DR: Because they told us it was the FBI. JJ: They said they were FBI? DR: Yeah, and -- JJ: [So that’s not?] -- DR: -- we knew who they were. It said “G-man” on the car; (laughs) government plates, man. “FBI,” so I mean, it was as clear as day that’s what they were there for. JJ: So then what did your parents feel about this? DR: They felt a lot of resentment. They weren’t happy about it. They were angry with you sometimes. JJ: They were angry with me because I gave them that. I was bringing heat. DR: You were bringing heat to the family. JJ: To the family, so -- DR: But at the same time, they didn’t want any beef with you because they knew what you were doing, that you were actually trying to help the community. [00:57:00] And they didn’t agree in some of the ways you went around doing it. (laughs) JJ: So they didn’t agree in the methods, but they agreed in the reasoning. DR: They agreed in the reasoning. Oh, definitely, the reasoning was always fine. Just the methods, they always -- JJ: They knew that there was discrimination. DR: Oh, they knew that. JJ: And -- 44 �DR: I mean, my dad fought for the same reasons. That’s where the differences in the ideologies come in. You went in the political ideology. You went for the neck. You went after aldermen, and you went after this in communities and forced the community in, “Let’s make a big march.” And they went about it quietly trying to bring change through the churches, telling the people, “Do this. Don’t say this. Say that. When you go to a meeting, talk to them like this. Talk to them like that. Represent yourselves in a different form. Maybe we’ll gain their respect.” You were like, “No, we’re going to earn their respect over the other like, ‘No, you’re going to give me your respect!’” They were saying, “We’ll earn [00:58:00] their respect,” and you said, “No, you’re going to give me your respect!” That’s the kind of stuff -- JJ: That was the difference. DR: That was the difference. JJ: There were different tactics, but they were both for -- so the Caballeros de San Juan were also trying to uplift the community? DR: All those organizations, Caballeros de San Juan, Dos Hermanos de la Familia de Dio -- JJ: The Puerto Rican Congress. DR: The Puerto Rican Congress. Let me see. The Trina Davila Center -- there was just so many of ’em. There were a lot of organizations. JJ: They were all trying to uplift the community -- DR: All of ’em. JJ: -- but in their different ways. 45 �DR: In different ways, exactly. JJ: So it was -- DR: They all had their own leaders, they all had their own ideology, but it was basically the same thing: do for the community. JJ: In other words, they knew the community was down. “How can we improve the community?” DR: Exactly. And I remember in the ’60s that they had gotten a lot of the priests -- I remember there was one priest. I’m going to mention his name. He’s not a priest anymore. His name was Father Raymond -- JJ: [00:59:00] Father Raymond? DR: -- and he was one of the first ones that really, really, really wanted to help the Puerto Rican community. I remember him going out in the snow with you guys taking out food to the poor Hispanic families in the community. You’d take boxes and boxes of food, and toys and everything for the kids, because they just didn’t have money. You know, and I remember him doing all that with the Puerto Rican leaders, with the Young Lords, with the Caballeros de San Juan. I remember the dances they’d do in the church. I remember the first gang was not the Young Lords. JJ: What was it? DR: There was one called the Rebels. (laughs) JJ: Oh, the Rebels. That’s right, with Ricky. DR: With Ricky -- JJ: Yeah, Ricky. 46 �DR: -- and that was the first gang that I can remember in Chicago. JJ: That was down by Immaculate Conception. DR: By Immaculate Conception. The first gang that I can remember from the Puerto Rican community was the Rebels in Chicago. A lot of guys are going to say Latin Kings [01:00:00] or the Disciples. No, the Rebels, the Young Lords, Latin Kings, Disciples, and then -- JJ: Because the Rebels were in Lincoln Park, but the Latin Kings were later up at Sheffield, which was kind of -- DR: The Latin Kings, from what I heard, were just a lot of ex-Young Lord members that weren’t happy with you. (laughs) JJ: Oh, really? Later, some of them -- DR: Yeah, and they formed the Latin Kings. That’s what happened there, but basically, that’s what it was. You know, they said you were too communityminded. (laughter) Let’s put it that way. They didn’t want that much heat on them, so that was what’s going on. JJ: Yeah, that was from the neighborhood [that I came back to?]. DR: And I can remember then -- JJ: And then the -- DR: -- back with the Young Lords too in the Sheffield and Armitage area, the church on Dayton and Armitage. JJ: You said it was -- DR: [01:01:00] You had a music room there in the church, and I used to go there with a couple of my buddies. Billy Ramos -- 47 �JJ: Billy Ramos went there? DR: -- and I would go in there, and my brother Edwin, and we would bang on the instruments, man. We would practice, we would learn, and nobody chased us out because, “That’s Cha-Cha’s cousin.” (laughs) JJ: But not only that. One of the reasons that we took over the church was so we could open it up for the neighborhood, so you guys were going -- DR: And on top of that, we got free lunch every day because you guys were giving out free lunches in the summer to all the kids in -- JJ: Free breakfast and that. DR: And I would get like four or five free lunches a day.(laughs) JJ: But like you said, you guys played music with our [instruments?] everywhere? DR: Everywhere. JJ: Everybody didn’t like you there, but they were -- DR: They had a little nurses thing. They’d check the kids out once in a while. I remember that. JJ: At the clinic? DR: At the clinic. I think they came once a year or twice a year. I remember all of those things like that. Those were very important to the Puerto Rican community -- JJ: But then -- DR: -- especially when you guys would give out the shots. Those shots costed money. A lot of [01:02:00] those folks didn’t have the money, and they had to send their kids -- and then that’s when they were starting with these flu shots and 48 �the polio shots and all this stuff. And so the kids had to get the shots before they went to school. They made a new rule -JJ: When you say that -- DR: -- when the Puerto Ricans started going to school. Everybody needed shots. (laughter) I have no idea why. They didn’t need ’em before, but that’s what went on. JJ: And they got us to -- DR: That’s the kind of stuff that we dealt with, and we struggled hard. JJ: Now, part of the music that you used to do for Christmastime and things like that -- DR: Oh, that’s where, actually, we really got started with music. That’s what the folks who started us -- that was our introduction to Jíbaro music, but it wasn’t the families or the Puerto Ricans near me. The families would get together in the holidays, and [01:03:00] they’d go house to house doing a parranda. A parranda is playing typical music from the mountains here in Puerto Rico or from the island, and that’s Aguinaldo, “Mapeye”, things like that. Different styles of Jíbaro music that they were used to hearing almost every day here, but when they went over, they didn’t hear it anymore. And they only heard it once a year when they would get together with the families to -- a parranda is basically a big family party. They all get together. There’s music, and they celebrate together. And then they go all together to the next house and they do the same party there, and then all the members from that family and the other family go to another house. And before the end of the night, you don’t want to receive them because we’re 49 �talking 70, 80 people and a bunch coming into your house. And if you don’t have food, you’re in trouble because [01:04:00] the first thing they ask for is soup, and they’ve been drinking all night. (laughter) And a big thing in the Puerto Rican community is that they give you soup when you’re drinking. I don’t know why. I guess you can’t [beat?] soup and booze, so -JJ: So that’s all the family participating in the -- DR: The whole family; the kids -- JJ: And so -- DR: -- the grandmothers, the grandfathers, the aunts, the uncles, the cousins. Everybody, and you’re waiting for it. And it’s a big thing because they plan it through the whole year. They plan, “Oh, this year, we’re going to have these guys. Oh, who’s going to make the pasteles? Who’s going to buy the lechón? Who’s going to do this,” you know, a big thing. Then they want to have a little gift for all the little kids, you know. The big kids? Water. (laughs) That’s the way it is. JJ: But I mean, the instruments and that -- you’d send them back to -- DR: Well, no. JJ: What about improvising? What is that? DR: Well, you’re talking about trovadores [01:05:00] JJ: (inaudible) DR: (Spanish) [01:05:02] We had plenty of -- JJ: You had that? DR: Oh, yeah, we had that. JJ: You had (Spanish) [01:05:05]? 50 �DR: First of all, our trovadores [01:05:07] was Pablo, Ricky’s father, okay? He was our musician as far as the typical music in the family. Everybody says, “Me,” but that was way back. Pablo was the man. (laughs) JJ: (inaudible) DR: Pablo was the boy. And basically, him and his son, Ricky, on the guitar -- and what happened was my dad, my uncle [Woosler?] -- JJ: Woosler? DR: Then there was Andre. These were all trovadores. They sang, okay? Pablo sang, and what they sang -- there was an older man that was a close friend of the family, Don Tomas. JJ: Tomas, yeah. DR: Remember Don Tomas? JJ: I remember him. DR: And [Cornejo?] and Luis Perez. These are the guys that [01:06:00] sang to you about the mountains. What trova is -- they’re singing about their life when they grew up in the countryside in Puerto Rico growing up on a farm, okay? That’s basically what it was, and they talked about their days. And they’ve brung all their -- what they were missing, what they were crying for, they were singing about it in their lyrics in the city. So people would listen because there was real emotional to them. JJ: And they would improvise it? DR: And they would improvise right there. That’s called trovas. And they have, right there -- 51 �JJ: They’d sing a written -- DR: -- nothing written down; improvised right there. JJ: And they sang (Spanish) [01:06:35]. DR: That’s right. JJ: I’d give [my life to hear?] -- DR: They would take a Bible, and they would sing the Bible in trovas from the creation to the exodus. (laughter) Singing the Bible. Try that one. JJ: And then -- DR: This is my family, and not to say there weren’t other Puerto Rican families doing the same thing. [01:07:00] All the Puerto Rican families that were there they were doing the same thing. Everybody was doing the same thing. That’s the way that they remembered their homeland, which is actually a sad situation. Right now, I want to make a comment. That tradition has been lost almost completely in Chicago. Now, it’s almost lost here too in Puerto Rico, but now times are different. Musics are different, but that music lasted for hundreds of years. And all the sudden, we lost it within 30, 40, 50 years. It’s really a shame because, I mean, it lasted for hundreds and hundreds of years. And to have it just disappear in 30, 40 years because of other musics coming out -- I don’t find that right. JJ: So when we were kinda growing up, we were kinda keeping that alive. We were kind of in between our parents and -- DR: Actually, La Solución Orchestra was based on Jíbaro music. It was a salsa band -- 52 �JJ: So [01:08:00] it was salsa. DR: -- but we would turn Jíbaro music into salsa, and that’s what made our band so popular with the people. Everybody was trying to copy salsa bands from Puerto Rico or from New York. La Solución wasn’t trying to do none of that. We did our own thing, and it was basically a typical sound. We invented our own style, and people accepted it immediately. Our arrangements were all originals done by ourselves. We didn’t hire other musicians to come and do our arrangements. We did ’em ourselves. We thought of our own lyrics. We did our own recordings. We did everything. And when we sang, we sang about the community. Our first album was Mi Barrio Se Quemo. In the ’70s, there was a lot of gangbanging going on with the Latin Kings and the Disciples and the Clovers fighting. And they were burning neighborhoods, and there was a lot of fires going on and stuff. And so we dedicated the first album to [01:09:00] my barrio in the city. Mi Barrio Se Quemo-- My town caught fire, so that was dedicated to that situation at that time. JJ: And now that you’re talking about Mi Barrio Se Quemo, there was a lot of arson going on also in the community, but I mean -- DR: That was being done. A lot of people were saying that -- sorry to cut you off -that was being paid for by certain aldermen and the mayor and stuff because they were still trying to push the Puerto Rican community out of the Humboldt Park and Wicker Park area. That’s too close to downtown for them. And if you look at it really on the map, it’s basically part of downtown right now, and that was big money. That’s real estate. 53 �JJ: That was prime real estate. DR: Prime real estate. I’ll give you an example. I kept telling my folks not to sell their home on Richmond and Armitage for the price they asked. When they bought [01:10:00] the house, they paid, I think, 30,000 dollars for this home back in early 1970 or ’71. When they resold the house 12, 14 years later, they sold it for -- I think it was 60,000 dollars. It was a very small profit, but I knew that there were people out there repairing and remodeling all these homes, and selling one apartment for 100,000 dollars. They have a three-story building here, and they sold it for that amount of money. Later on, the person that bought that building one year later sold it for 200,000 dollars. And I’ve heard they’ve sold it quite a few times for quite a bit more, and this is a frame house. And the reason being is because it’s prime real estate. This is, I mean, a hop, skip, and a jump from Downtown Chicago, and that’s why they want -- [01:11:00] it wasn’t personal. I can always tell you this. I can guarantee you Daley was not against the community. He just wanted ’em in a different part of the state as far away as possible, (laughs) but he got no problem with us. JJ: So why would he tell ’em that that -- DR: Why would he do that? JJ: Why did he do it? It doesn’t have to be [the Wicker area?]. DR: Money. It’s all about the greenback. This is the United States of America, and everything here revolves around the greenback. People talk about racism and they talk about this, and you talk about -- this is my personal opinion. JJ: What’s your opinion? 54 �DR: My personal opinion? It’s all about the greenback. I’ll give you the biggest communists in the world and the biggest socialists in the world. I’ll throw a couple million in front of ’em. They are going to be American citizens all the way. (laughter) “Karl who? Karl what?” [01:12:00] This is about money. JJ: “Karl what?” DR: Yeah, this is what it’s all about. I mean, and the reason they fight and they’re arguing with you is because, you know, there’s one less group and more money for you. Remember, most of these organizations are funded by the government. The government gives them a certain amount of money to keep that organization going, so they want to keep it going as long as they can. Why? Because they’re receiving that check. That’s their earnings. That’s what they’re receiving, and I’m going to give you an example of something I don’t like here in Puerto Rico. We have students in Universidad de Puerto Rico en Río Piedras who have been studying for 25 and 30 years. They’ve never held a job. They’re getting a check from the government for the past 25, 30 years monthly to study, and then they finish a course and they take another course. They take another course. Now, they’ve been studying for 25 to 30 years. These are [01:13:00] people who started in college in their twenties. Now, they’re close to 60 years old, and they’re still studying. They’ve never had a job, but they’ve gotten money all their lives through the government to study. JJ: Are you talking about me? DR: No, (laughter) I’m talking about -- JJ: Hey, mister, are you telling me about life? No, I’m just -- 55 �DR: But this is what goes on, and those are things that -- I’m trying to explain it’s about the greenback. JJ: So [through careers?] too? DR: It’s not that they’re doing something for this. The ones that really are doing something -- no, not you. JJ: That’s what I -- DR: You’ve been at this before there was money. (laughs) I can befriend you, but I’m talking about others that came after you, and they’re just there for the money. They’re not doing anything for the community. What are they doing? Tell me one thing they’re doing. JJ: And then they’re really there for a career for themselves? DR: Exactly. That’s not for the -- JJ: And then -- DR: Before, it was for the people, remember? The People’s Park, the people’s power. The People’s this-- [01:14:00] Now, it’s the -- JJ: But what about the students? [It must be kids that are?] -- DR: I got kids. I got a wife and family, you know. JJ: That’s how you see it? DR: That’s the way they see it. They’re not going to jeopardize their job anymore. (laughs) JJ: But you think that Daley saw it as a money thing? DR: Daley did it because of money. That’s the only reason he did it because -- JJ: I thought -- 56 �DR: -- that area was being asked for by the big shots. The old money wanted to rebuild that area, which is what they’re doing actually right now. They just rebuilt that whole area. It’s being all rebuilt, and they’re making that into lofts. And you know what they get for one of those lofts? Four hundred grand. I mean, the factory where my dad used to work -- this was an old factory building. JJ: Which one was this? DR: JB Electronics on Armitage close to Westin. It was an old factory building. Old. They stripped this building down; tore, I mean, the floors and the roof, everything. All they left was the four [01:15:00] walls. And they remodeled it, put new floors - lots. Each one of ’em sold for almost 500,000 dollars. This was an old factory building that they were going to demolish. And they want that area, why? Because they’re five minutes from downtown. They don’t even have to take their cars. You get on the bus, and you’re in Downtown in 10 minutes. You get on the train, you’re probably downtown in five minutes. JJ: You’re on the lake. DR: You’re on the lake, you know, and that is prime real estate. The Puerto Ricans knew where they wanted to move. (laughs) They like the park and they like the beach, and they picked that area. And at that time when they came in, it was ghetto. When the Puerto Ricans first moved there, that was ghetto. The downtown area was the downtown area. The Americans at that time didn’t think they were going to expand, right? JJ: Actually, it was skid row at that time -- DR: That was skid row. 57 �JJ: -- on Madison Square. DR: Jewtown over there on Holliston and Madison. [01:16:00] You know, and the Americans basically failed to realize that they were going to expand. The city was growing. They were shocked when they all the sudden had over 100,000 Puerto Ricans. Plus, the Black population was getting big, and they were all in a small area. And they’re going, “Oh, my God, wait a minute. That’s in a certain area, and all that area’s worth a lot of money.” They saw all this money coming out of there in rents and stuff like that, and all these people were getting rich off the populations that were moving into these old buildings. And then all the sudden, the city started expanding, opening up, getting bigger. Downtown started expanding, and they needed prime territory, and we were right in the middle of it. And that’s what happened, Cha-Cha, and you know it. (laughs) And now if you want to find Puerto Ricans in Chicago, they’re there, but not like before. Most of ’em now are in the suburbs. JJ: What are any final thoughts? DR: Any final thoughts? I can tell you I’m glad you did this. [01:17:00] I’m glad that I was able to say something. There’s a lot of things I would have liked to have said, but -- JJ: Go ahead. DR: No, there’s just not enough time. (laughs) We would need a year. There’s a lot of things that really should be said, you know, but basically, as far as our family, I can tell a lot of people that we have a lot to be proud of. We were one of the first Latino families there -- well, Puerto Rican families, because the Mexicans were 58 �there before us. But one of the first Puerto Rican families there, and we could probably say that we worked with all the major organizations that helped build that community there. We can also probably say that we worked with the best music thing there. We were involved in almost every aspect of the growing of that city and every community action, or musically or school-wise. In any form you want to mention, our family was directly involved in it, so [01:18:00] I can veritably say to you now I’m glad somebody’s going to say something because otherwise, it would’ve been a story that would have never been told. And it needed to be told. And there’s other families, not only ours, that need their story told too. So I’ll mention all of those families like the Ortizes, the Sotos, the Riveras, the Ochoas; you know, the Jiménezes. You know, all of them had complete -- they were the ones that built the city. They were the ones that built the reputations we’re living down now, and for good or worse, that’s what there was. And I don’t think Chicago turned out too bad. Chicago has a lot of stuff to be proud of. Whether they like it or not, (laughter) me whether they like it or not, and a [01:19:00] few other guys whether they like it or not. And believe me, there’s some that like it, and some don’t. But you can see nicely that a lot of people respect us and that they liked us. They also realized and they know who we are, and they’ve never beaten around the bush by saying no. When they talk about us, they know, “That was one of the first families.” They know, “Those guys were involved in everything,” so thanks, Cha-Cha. JJ: No, thank you. DR: Nice meeting you, man. 59 �M1: (inaudible) END OF VIDEO FILE 60 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/bf7cb595f6c96a3a4025299c9b695a8b.mp4 7167caaec6273b10c0efa55fdc223462 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry David Rodriguez vídeo entrevista y biografía Descripción Spanish language Description entry La historia oral de David Rodriguez, entrevistado por Jose 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez el 5/12/2012 acerca de los Young Lords en Lincoln Park. Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Mexicano-Americanos--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Mexico-Americanos--Illinois--Chicago--Condiciones sociales Relaciones raciales Conflicto social Identitad cultural Partido Pantera Negra. Illinois Capí­tulo Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Rodriguez_David Title A name given to the resource David Rodriguez video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rodriguez, David Description An account of the resource Oral history of David Rodriguez, interviewed by Jose 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez, on 5/12/2012 about the Young Lords in Lincoln Park. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jimenez, Jose, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Mexican Americans--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Mexican Americans--Illinois--Chicago--Social conditions Race relations Social conflict Cultural identity Black Panther Party. Illinois Chapter Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-05-12 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/bf55baa533c5457413b4b48d0b0b5f62.pdf 491196d5096d672ab26476e1054b92d0 PDF Text Text � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/baaa2e0dacdc132a69e4a3070425d3c3.pdf 24733fe6eeda8d908198f3b874aaf483 PDF Text Text Department of State Washington 6th August 1867 David S. Gooding Esq. U.S. Marshall for the District of Columbia Sir, I enclose herewith the President’s Warrant for the pardon of James Evans and will thank you to acknowledge its receipt. I am, sir, Your obedient Servant, William H Seward Acting Secretary � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Civil War and Slavery Collection Subject The topic of the resource United States--History--Civil War, 1861-1865 Slavery--United States African Americans United States--Politics and government--19th century Description An account of the resource A selection of correspondence, diaries, official documents, photographs related to the American Civil War and to the institution of slavery, collected by Harvey E. Lemmen. The collection includes a selection of documents from ten states related to the ownership of slaves and abolition, correspondence and documents of soldiers who fought in the war and from family members and officials, diaries and letters of individuals, and a collection of mailing envelopes decorated with patriotic imagery. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lemmen, Harvey E. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/472">Civil War and Slavery Collection (RHC-45)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/470">John Bennitt Diaries and Correspondence (RHC-43)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/471">Nathan Sargent Papers (RHC-44)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/478">Theodore Peticolas Diary (RHC-51)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/476">Civil War Patriotic Envelopes Collection (RHC-51)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/479">Whitely Read Diary (RHC-52)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1804-1897 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg; application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Image; Text Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1804-1897 Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-45_CW1-4380 Title A name given to the resource David S. Gooding from William H. Seward Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1867-08-06 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource United States. Department of State Subject The topic of the resource Seward, William Henry, 1801-1872 Johnson, Andrew, 1808-1875 United States--Politics and government--19th century Pardon Washington (D.C.) Description An account of the resource Cover letter to U.S. Marshal from the Dept. of State accompanying the warrant for President Andrew Johnson's pardon of James Evans. Warrant is not included. Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Civil War and slavery collection (RHC-45): http://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/472 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/581eab3f0456f5e843234a1f5b785825.mp4 2b140f69bdc7dbaf8056daaecedfc08d https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/0077ea3343d784fa24765bcf66945fd5.pdf ab521396eb9069bf10bf044e233a4c64 PDF Text Text ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW KEN DAVID Born: January 1950, Gerard, Ohio Resides: Niles, Ohio Interviewed by: James Smither PhD, GVSU Veterans History Project, Transcribed by: Joan Raymer, October 26, 2012 Interviewer: Can you start us off with some background on yourself, where and when were you born for instance? I was born in January of 1950 in the small town of Gerard and currently living in Niles. Interviewer: Did you grow up in Gerard? Yes, I grew up in Gerard. Interviewer: What did your family do for a living then? My mom was a housewife, she was a stay home mom, and my dad worked. Interviewer: What kind of a job did he have? He was a machinist Interviewer: Was he working in sort of a factory or repair shop? Yes, in factories, yes Interviewer: How many kids were in the family? I have a brother and two sisters. Interviewer: Did you go to public schools there? Yes, public school and public high school. 1:04 Interviewer: When did you graduate from high school? I graduated in 1968 and got drafted in 1969. Interviewer: What did you do between graduation and when you got drafted? 1 �I was recruited by the state of Ohio Highway Department and I worked in the centrifuge on black top plants, testing black top. Interviewer: How did you wind up with that? They came to the school and they went through certain records and they picked like seven of us and they hired two of us. Interviewer: Now, in your school, did most kids, at that point, not go to college? Most of them went to college. Interviewer: They did go to college. The ones that did not go to college got drafted. Interviewer: At the time that you got drafted, how much did you know about the war in Vietnam or what was going on over there? Nothing—they never talked about it in school. Interviewer: You didn’t see stuff in TV? 2:04 I didn‟t even know where it was. Interviewer: But you were aware of the draft though? Oh yes Interviewer: And were you expecting that sooner or later they would catch up with you? Yes Interviewer: Once you do get drafted then, take us through the process. You get your notice and then what do you do? 2 �I had to go downtown; they put us on a bus and took us to the Cleveland regional office. All day physical and that was the first time, you passed or failed, and we got on the bus and came home and waited for the next notice to come and report. Interviewer: When people went in for the physical, were there people who tried to find ways to beat the system? Yes, there were many, many. Some protested religiously, some wore sheets; some poured actual packets of water in the urine test. 3:10 Some acted up, and they just called the MP‟s, they hauled them across the hall and told them they were Marines and everybody calmed right down. Interviewer: People tried stuff, but it didn’t work? No, soap under the armpits to get their blood pressure up, it was all kinds of things. Interviewer: But you didn’t pull any of that stuff yourself? No, no need to. Interviewer: So, basically you were willing to go, and figured your country calls you have to go? Yes Interviewer: So, how long did you have to wait around before you got your instructions on reporting for basic? Not long Interviewer: Where did they send you for basic training? They sent me to Fort Campbell, Kentucky, for August and September, and from there I went to Fort Polk, Louisiana until January. 4:04 Interviewer: All right, describe what basic training consisted of at Fort Campbell? 3 �They told us from day one that we were all going to a country called Vietnam, and they taught us everything to be able to survive from the basics to the most extreme. Interviewer: So, they were actually teaching you about conditions in Vietnam or trying to? They were, like I told the doctors before, they were programing us. In basic training they broke us down both physically and mentally, so we would react to different commands from our drill sergeants and once they got to that point we were functioning just like a group of, not boys anymore, but people following orders and not thinking about what the orders are, just reacting. 5:07 Interviewer: Now, how easy or how hard was it for you to make the adjustment to that? It was very hard, you come out of high school, you‟re all smiles and happy go lucky and then they‟re trying to get you into an environment that is hostile, if you looked the wrong way you‟re dead, if you act the wrong way, you‟re dead, and they really prepared us mentally. Interviewer: Now, were there—did you push back with the training, or did you just try to work with it the best you could? I did the best I could in whatever they were trying to teach us. Interviewer: Did you have people who were trying to resist, argue or fight back? Yes Interviewer: How does that play out, what kind of things would they do? 6:00 4 �They would recycle them. They would start them off in another training brigade as day one, and those who couldn‟t cope the second time around, most of them got a hardship discharge, unsuitable for the military. Interviewer: What proportion of the guys that you started out training with kind of finished the basic training on schedule? The majority of them Interviewer: Physically what kind of condition were you in when you went in? Nineteen years old. Basic physical health, but after basic training your mind was equipped to take on five Marines and beat them. Interviewer: Did you build up your physical strength or endurance as a trainee? Does the physical training do that or were you in pretty much the shape you needed to be already? No, the guys that were a little bit overweight, they went through more PT training, and for the rest of us, every day was the same routine to build up our endurance. 7:11 Interviewer: Now the guys that were teaching you, were they guys who had been to Vietnam or were they just drill instructors? We had one drill instructor that was in Vietnam, was wounded and came back to be an instructor. The rest of them, they‟re going through training just like the rest of us, in preparation of going over, and they were all sergeants. Interviewer: So they had been through the NCO training at this point and not rotated over yet. Okay, then you go to Fort Polk for AIT, that’s your next stop. Physically what was Fort Polk like or that area like? 5 �As the bus pulled in there were big signs called Tiger Land, and it was more God's country, open. 8:03 More physical training, more weapons training, escape invasion training, they started feeding us a hardboiled egg and a piece of toast for breakfast to shrink our stomachs in preparation for what was coming. Interviewer: Did they have forests or swampy areas around for you to train in? Yes, it was all wetlands, and a lot of times they would take us out and give us degrees and you had to find your way back, and it was all nasty and dirty. Interviewer: Were there problems with alligators or snakes and things like that? I didn‟t see any, no Interviewer: Now, the men who were training you at this level, had more of them been to Vietnam at this point? The same way, some were and some weren‟t. 9:00 Interviewer: Did they try to give you any kind of training in terms of how to deal with civilian populations, or populated areas, or was this just all out in the swamps? It was military vs. military Interviewer: About how long did this last? It was another eight weeks or ten weeks. Interviewer: What kind of MOS did you come out with? Eleven Charlie, which is a mortar, but they also trained us on the M16, the M14, the M60, LAWs, they gave it all to us. My specialty was the mortars, but when we got to Vietnam it was an infantry rifle. 6 �Interviewer: It’s what you’d need when you got there. When you complete AIT, do they let you go homer before sending you overseas, or do you get a post in the states first? 10:04 They asked for those who wanted to go to jump school, they could go to jump school and the other ones could go home for five days before going to California to be shipped out. Interviewer: Which option did you take? I went home for five days. Interviewer: what was it like to go home and know that you’re going off to Vietnam next? My family was sad, but I knew that I had to do what I had to do. Interviewer: Physically, how did they get you out to Vietnam? What was the process? From California they put us on a United commercial jet with stewardesses and meals, and flew us to Hawaii and then to Guam, another island, and then on to Vietnam. Interviewer: What was that atmosphere in the plane going over? Was this a chartered one for the military? Yes Interviewer: What was it like on that plane? 11:02 I passed out and didn‟t wake up until we got to Hawaii. My buddy nest to me said they couldn‟t wake me up, but I was emotionally drained because we were on the plane for twenty three hours and going over in your mind—you don‟t know what to expect. At nineteen years old I had been trained to kill people and am I going to be able to shoot somebody? 7 �Interviewer: What was you first impression of Vietnam when you got off the plane? It was hitting a brick wall as you stepped off the plane because you were so conditioned to the air conditioning on the plane. We landed in January and it was like walking into the twilight zone. Interviewer: Where did you land in Vietnam? 12:00 Bien Hoa Interviewer: You get off the plane and what do they do with you? They just put us in formation, called off the names and assigned you to a company. I remember doing KP, and then they shipped us off to what they call SERTS training for a week. Our instructors wore black hats, we lived in hooches. We were fenced in and during the day they would take us outside the wire on patrols, trying to prep us for when they put us in the real jungle. Interviewer: What kinds of things do they want you to learn, or what sort of preparation are you getting? Follow orders and if they say “stop”, you freeze, no question. Interviewer: Did they teach you how to spot booby traps and things like that? 13:07 Most of that was done in training. There was more that they showed us there that was on the job training more or less. Interviewer: Are they still focusing on just dealing with enemy military forces as opposed to people in civilian areas or things like that? They told us that where they were going to send us was strictly regular NVA army. Interviewer: Did you at this point, know what unit you were going to join? 8 �No Interviewer: But they had some idea? They had it all mapped out. When we finished out search, I remember, they put me and somebody else on a helicopter took us out in the jungle, and that‟s when I met my Lieutenant and graded myself on target. 14:07 Interviewer: What unit did they assign you to? I was in the 2nd platoon, Delta [Company], 1st [Battalion] of the 506th [Regiment]. Interviewer: In the 101st Airborne. 101st Airborne, Air Mobile, Air Assault Interviewer: Where were they based at the time you joined them? At Camp Evans, which was up north in the high country, and the first month we just patrolled the low land. About two months later we hit the A Shau Valley. Interviewer: Let’s talk about that first part first. They take you up—the helicopter—did they take you to Camp Evans or did they take you to a smaller place where your company was or how did that work? From Bien Hoa, from the airport, they put us on a Chinook, there was a bunch of us, and flew us up north, got off at Camp Evans, and from there they assigned. 15:06 Interviewer: Was your company at Camp Evans when you got there? They were in the field. Interviewer: Did you wait for them to come back from the field? No, they took me out. Interviewer: How did you get you out? By Helicopter 9 �Interviewer: So they fly you out, you go in and you join the company. What sort of a reception do you get when you get there? “Your cherry is here, you‟re blood.” Interviewer: Once you joined them, did anybody make an effort to kind of explain to you what was going on or give you any advice on what to do? The ones that I met at that time, they try to help you out, they tell you where to go, and the squad leader points you in more directions. Interviewer: Do you remember going out on patrol with them for the first time? Yes Interviewer: What was that like, or what do you remember about it? 16:00 They kept saying, “This is the real thing”. Interviewer: What was the country like that you were patrolling in? Was it open country or grassland? It was open grassland with little hills on it. Interviewer: When you were moving, were you going just as a squad, or platoon, or whole company? As the 2nd platoon Interviewer: About how many men were in the platoon when you joined it? I don‟t remember that, but there was there were about eighteen or twenty of us when we got shot up the last time. Interviewer: Do you remember how big your squad was when you joined that? I would say we had four squads, and maybe five or six in a squad. 10 �Interviewer: And when you go out, initially, where did they put you in the squad? Did they make you walk point right away, or the rear, or in the middle someplace? 17:04 Just—they had their point men already trained and they just put you in line somewhere. Interviewer: When you move through that open country, how far apart would you be normally? We were five or six feet. Interviewer: Now, were there trails in those places, or would you just walk in the grass or what? Our sergeant—from our sergeant we set off the trails. Trails always end up in an ambush, so we made our own trails. Interviewer: On that first patrol did you have any kind of contact? No contact, we saw them, but we had no contact. Interviewer: Now, when you were at Camp Evans, based at Camp Evans, did you spend time camped out overnight outside of the perimeter, at times, or were you just mostly inside of it at night? 18:03 The whole time I was there I night have slept on a cot three times. It was strictly all jungle. We would go out thirty-five or forty-five days and come back in. Interviewer: How long were you at Camp Evans before you started doing that? From the time I got to Evans and went through, I would guess it a week of KP duty, and a week on certs and then right out in the jungle. Interviewer: You get up there, and talk about SERTS, was this the training we talked about or was this another level of training? 11 �This was training in country, which were the procedures they wanted us to follow in country. Interviewer: Was this specific to the 101st? Yes Interviewer: All right, but once that’s done they’re pretty quickly sending you out into the jungle areas as opposed to—because you’re talking about going through grass and the hills. How long were you doing that? 19:12 I guess maybe a month or a month and a half. Interviewer: While you were doing that were you sleeping out in the field? Oh yes Interviewer: So, at night what would you do? We would set up in a perimeter. There were two guys in a squad and one would sleep and one would stay awake, and then they would shift back and forth all night. Interviewer: When you set up a perimeter, what kind of defenses would you have? We would set up the claymores, and the trip flares in front of us in case something did happen to sneak in. Interviewer: But, they’re not bringing in concertina wire or things like that? No, that was only on the fire support bases. Interviewer: Would you dig in at all? Sometimes we would, and sometimes, if the vegetation was high enough, just--- 20:09 Interviewer: Did the enemy try to probe those perimeters at all, or did they ever shoot mortars at you, or things like that? Yes, many times, like when we were in the valley. Satchel charges, mortars. 12 �Interviewer: But, were they doing it around Evans? No, that was pretty much quiet. Interviewer: Then when they tell you that you’re heading off into the jungle now, and you’re going to head off, did the veteran guys in the unit say, “Ok, this is going to be different or harder, or did you just go? We just went. Interviewer: How did they get you out of there? By helicopter again Interviewer: Were you going to an established firebase or a new LZ, what was it? It could just be an open spot in the jungle. It could be a regular fire support base that was leaving another company. 21:12 They told us very little, they just threw us on and dropped us off. Interviewer: Do you remember sort of going out into the jungle the first time, the first of those trips out, or do they all run together now? They all run together, and once you go to the first one they‟re all the same. Some are hotter, some are quiet. Interviewer: Describe, a little bit, the country you’re operating in now, the jungle terrain, physically what does it look like to you as you’re going through it? Lowlands, there were creeks, wetlands, grass, and our feet were always wet, and at night you always change your socks and put the other ones around your neck until they fried the next day, leaches, and when we got to the mountains, in the valley, the rains were cold at night and you could see your breath. 22:08 The rain lasted a long time and you were just miserable. 13 �Interviewer: Did you have any way to keep yourselves dry? Did you have ponchos? Our policy was, we didn‟t take ponchos because they made too much noise. The dinks would hear the noise and they would come. All we had was tropical blankets. Interviewer: Now, when you would—how long would you be out there on patrol at one time? How long were you away from the base? The first time was thirty some days. We came in for a day, got resupplied, showered and shaved and went back out the next day, and that was forty-five days. We came back in and the last time was--- 23:07 Interviewer: Now was there a sort of routine when you’re out on one of these long patrols out in the jungle, what happens day to day? You try to be quiet; you can hear somebody talking a long, long way away. No noise, no animals, just quiet. I had the answer on the radio as low as it would go, wrapped in a towel, and tied, trying to keep the noise down. Interviewer: So were you working as an RTO then? Yes, when my Lieutenant's radio man went to the Captain to be his radio man, they asked me to walk point or carry the radio. I said, “This is a no brainer, give me the radio”. There again, they gave us radio class training also. Interviewer: How heavy was the radio? Too heavy, and we had trouble with the batteries. 24:04 They made me carry two extra batteries because they would just go dead all of a sudden. Interviewer: Now, were these radios that had big, long antennas on them, or did you have a short antenna? 14 �In the beginning I had a big, long, flimsy antenna, and then I got a better antenna, that they sent me that was shorter. Interviewer: At certain points the RTO’s were targets for snipers, or anybody, and those big long antennas were a giveaway. Yes, I carried mine wrapped down and it was tied on, so I tried to conceal it. Interviewer: So, you were the RTO for your platoon leader then? Yes Interviewer: How early on did you get that assignment? Probably after a month, I‟m guessing. Interviewer: So, basically most of the time you’re walking around in the jungle carrying the radio? Yes, communicating with the other squads and the Captain. 25:09 Interviewer: Alright and when you moved through a jungle area, how would you go about doing that? Would you still stay off the trails or would you have to use them sometimes? We stayed off the trails. The trails were nothing but trouble. Interviewer: Were there other units that were using them and getting into trouble? Ambushes, yes Interviewer: But, if you’re going through jungle, aren’t you having to cut your way through with machetes or something? Sometimes, and sometimes you‟re just pulling and working your way through. If we did a click a day we were happy. 15 �Interviewer: So, in order to keep fairly quiet, you can’t just be chopping away hard on a scale like that? No Interviewer: Would you move by day or by night? By day, and as it was getting dark we always set up for nighttime. Interviewer: When you set up for nighttime, were you setting up as a company or a platoon? 26:08 As a platoon, even though the company was assigned to a certain region, each platoon had its own place to setup for the night and we got those from the Captain. Interviewer: As you prepare to setup for the night, what are the steps you take, or what happens there as you get ready for the overnight? If the ground is pure rock, we dug in the best we could, set our flares and claymores, in preparation for the long night to come. Interviewer: How often did you have contact then, whether by day or by night? Once we got in the valley and the mountains with the regular army, it seemed like every day. 27:03 Interviewer: Would you see much of them during the day or sometimes find them, or mostly at night when they came after you? Sometimes you would see them crossing, if you were high enough in the mountains, and most of the time they came after us at night. Interviewer: Did they have a standard procedure for doing that? They hit us with satchel charges first and then come in. 16 �Interviewer: How big was one of these satchel charges? Did you ever see one that hadn’t blown up? Yes, I was throwing them back at them at one point. Interviewer: How close would they have to be to throw them? The ones that we found, that didn‟t go off, were so big, so square, two inches square, six inches big, they were yellow dynamite with a blasting cap that they pulled that starts the fuse, wrapped in plastic. 28:13 Some of them were more sophisticated, but it would take your arm off or your leg off. Interviewer: Now, they throw those first—were they pretty much sort of throwing those blind in your general direction? Did they target individual foxholes? No, they kind of knew where everybody was setting up for the night, most of the time. Sometimes they would just throw them and get lucky and most of them that came in took somebody out. Interviewer: After they throw the satchel charges, what happens next? By this time we‟re all returning fire, except for the last battle, they just kept coming. Interviewer: The ones before the last battle then, are they just kind of testing you to see what happens? Yes 29:07 Interviewer: Then you fire, and if you’re firing then, can they see your gun flashes or things like that and know where you are? We used tracers going out. Interviewer: It would seem to me if they’re usually getting somebody effectively, were you constantly losing men? 17 �Yes Interviewer: Would you get replacements sent out to you in the field, or would you just keep getting smaller and smaller? We kept getting smaller and smaller and when they got replacements in the rear, they came out in a chopper. Interviewer: How long did it take—by the time you went out into the jungle, did you already feel like you were part of the unit and knew what you were doing, or did you still feel like the new guy at that point? After about thirty days you weren‟t the new guy anymore. 30:01 Interviewer: By the time you’re in the jungle, you’re at least part of the squad or the platoon at this point, and know who those guys are? Yes Interviewer: So, when they do bring in the replacements to your unit, did you have anything to do with them or try to help them? No, once I became the Lieutenant's radio man I stuck with the Lieutenant and the sergeant, we were always in communication. Interviewer: Did you work well with the Lieutenant? Yes, up to a point. When the Captain got ambushed one night the radio man lost his leg and died of a heart attack a couple of days later at the hospital, my Lieutenant, Fletcher, he turned on me, got real cold. We had a confrontation one night and that‟s when he broke down and he said he got real close with his first radio man and it tore him up when he died. 31:05 He didn‟t get close to me and I understood why and I said, “You be what you have to be”. 18 �Interviewer: It wears on the officers as much as anybody. Yes, the stress, I didn‟t care if he was an officer or not, if you have a problem, talk to me. Interviewer: So, you have a period there of several months when you’re spending a lot of time going on these long patrols. Go in, take some losses, get some probing attacks etc. Now, did you, at that time, conduct any operations that seemed to be successful, or doing what they were supposed to be doing? Were you able to ambush them, or make trouble for them? At certain times we go and ambush sites, nothing ever happened. It was always daytime skirmishes, or at nighttime for sure. 32:06 Interviewer: In a daytime skirmish, how would that play out? They would hit and run. We‟d send a little patrol out, they would hit at them, but they would hide. Interviewer: How much to you actually see of them, at least before the final fight? During the day very little except when they would sneak, and they had tunnels everywhere. Interviewer: Did you ever uncover tunnels or bunkers, or find any of those? Yes, we found a—we came around the bottom of a mountain, on a little higher ground, and there was a bunker complex, highly sophisticated for a company of a larger size. They had a latrine all bamboo lashed, but they weren‟t there. 33:12 A lot of, lot of bunkers, and they were setup at a good ambush site to protect the people inside. Interviewer: Except, they weren’t there when you got there? No, they had moved on. 19 �Interviewer: When you find a bunker complex like that, what happens, do you call in somebody to blow it up? We go through all the hooches with what we have, and we didn‟t blow anything up on this one, we just moved in, investigated, and moved out. Interviewer: Now, as the Lieutenant's radio operator, do you have any better idea of what’s going on, or what you’re supposed to be doing, or is it still mostly mysterious? As far as our missions, it was—people in the rear knew what we were doing. 34:06 They would send us out there to patrol the area and we just had to relay what we„d find, and so forth, back. Interviewer: Now, when you did make contact of one kind or another, or come under attack at night, Were you able to call in air support or artillery support? Yes, one time we called in fighters for us and they dropped napalm. Helicopters came out, airships came out, artillery, mortar support, and most of it was all there. I had all the frequencies to go to, to ask for support. Interviewer: Now, when the Vietnamese would attack you, what kind of fire power did they have besides their satchel charges? They would have their AK47‟s, and the last battle they hit us with machine guns, tear gas, they hit us with it all when we come in and landed. 35:11 Interviewer: Now, before you’re in the last battle, you’re going on patrols etc. How are you getting supplies? As we ran low, we called in resupply. I never set numbers on the radio. We had a “nasty shackle”, and a “nasty shackle” was just a dirty word for zero to nine. I would say “nasty 20 �shackle” like “alpha, “bravo”, which gave them a number of what we had left and they would set up a resupply and a helicopter would come out. Interviewer: Would you sometimes make a hole in the canopy for them to come through, or would you have open places for them to land? 36:03 Sometimes they would fly by and drop us cases of C4, det cord, and then we would set up a site big enough and we would blow one charge and the helicopter would come in before the dust settled and either get us out or give us what we needed and move out quick. Interviewer: But, the idea was to do it quickly because there were bad guys in the area. Yes, they would hear the noise and they would come. Interviewer: Now, did you have situations on these patrols where the helicopters were coming under fire anyway? Yes, at one point as the helicopters were coming out, they were getting shot down. Interviewer: Did you have some of those missions that were aborted because of that? Yes, we were already in the jungle, we had low water, low ammo, and finally a helicopter made it through. Interviewer: Were you also getting medevac’s coming in and taking out your wounded as they got hit? Only if the weather was good 37:06 For a night attack, they wouldn‟t come in. We had a guy, he had a big white dot on his helicopter, he was a ghost rider, and he came in, we were in the mountains, we were socked in, and a guy was dying, he had to go, and this guy came out and we talked him in by the side of the mountain, the echo. He came 21 �straight down and you couldn‟t see in front of you from the fog and mist and everything, so he shut her down and he said, “I‟m only shutting her down for ten minutes and if it doesn‟t clear, I‟, out of here. We loaded him up, and he waited, and ten minutes later he fired up and he said, “I‟m going straight up and if the echo doesn‟t sound right let me know”. The guy did survive. 38:06 Interviewer: So, you had some good pilots? Yes, we had some good pilots. We had some pilots that were afraid, but the majority of the pilots were good and that‟s why we‟re here. Interviewer: Now, were there occasions where they could bring you extra supplies or better food, or things like that, or drop in a case of beer, or did that not happen when you were out there? I can remember times when they would resupply us there would be an ammo canister with a plastic bag and it had either hot rice, or maybe spaghetti, but that wasn‟t too often. Interviewer: Occasional hot food, but that’s pretty much it. Yes Interviewer: What do you do for water when you’re out there, do you drink out of streams, or do you just--I‟d carry a quart and a half gallon canteen. 39:00 In the mountains the streams were pure, clean, and we would dump out the water they would send us, it was nasty, and we‟d drink from the streams. Interviewer: What are you doing for food at that point? We had our C rations. Occasionally we‟d get a dehydrated meal, but most of it was C‟s. 22 �Interviewer: When you got back to base camp after being out for a month, or whatever, than what was the process there? We‟d leave our ruck at the pad, take our M16 and walk down to the barber shop, and get a shave and a haircut. Interviewer: Did they use Vietnamese barbers? Yes, we had Vietnamese barbers on base. 40:01 Interviewer: Did you wonder about them at all? I said, “They‟re going to kill me with a straight razor, and they‟re going to do it here or in the jungle”. Interviewer: Would there be a lot of Vietnamese working on the bases during the day? I don‟t know Interviewer: Now there long enough to know? Not there long enough to find out what‟s going on. Interviewer: Would they issue you new fatigues when you go in? We had a bunch of fatigues I our duffle bags and we would just throw the ones we had on away and grab a new set. At one point they actually sent us out clean fatigues, but with different names you know, but they were clean. Interviewer: So, you have a certain kind of regular routine or pattern that you follow at times, but then the last patrol you go out on that’s the one that gets really ugly? Very ugly 23 �Interviewer: Take us through that patrol the best you can. You’re going out and what happens? 41:04 The last battle? Interviewer: Yes, how long are you out there in the field before that battle actually happens this time? We took off from a fire support base. It was a company assault, there were twenty one helicopters, and at least six guys in each helicopter. The helicopter would come in, land, and we would load up and take off. As you kept flying a big circle until we were leaded and we took off for an abandoned fire support base. The gun ships were on the first helicopter and on the way in they fired their rockets just to prep the area, and then the first helicopter landed. The helicopter I was on was the last to land. They started shooting at us, so we would pop red smoke, the other ones detoured away. 42:07 Our medic was on the other side of the helicopter, and he took a chest wound as he was getting off. They hit us with machine guns, tear gas, and it was a very, very hot LZ. The sergeants in charge and the squad leaders, we set up a very fast perimeter, we took care of business and they kind of folded back. The other helicopters came in, we made a big perimeter on top of the old mountain and that night it was quiet. That‟s was on may 5th, and on May 6th I did some patrolling on the bottom. 43:00 The one patrol that Greg was in, they were going up the hill and the dink jumped up. They had no place to go, and Roger, who was on point, he just fell back, and as he rolled back he took an AK in the rump, it wasn‟t a death wound, but it hurt like hell. That night, on May 6th, it was quiet until about two or three o‟clock in the morning and then they hit us. Our 2nd platoon was 24 �the only one on the mountain at this time, the other ones had all moved off, and the mountain top was too big for us to secure, we were spaced that far. 44:01 Interviewer: Were you spaced all around the clearing or just in one end of it? We were in a circle, somewhat, we were spaced that far, not closer like we normally did. The position to the left of me popped a grenade, minutes before I just asked for a sitrep [situation report], and everybody gave me their sitrep. Then I heard the grenade pop, he sat up and then it was the 4th of July. He took a—there was a dink right in front of him and when he sat up he gave away his position. He took a full mag, either AK or M16, the position to the right of me, they were dead, and the position to the right of them, they were already dead. 45:04 They had crawled in and slit their throats. Satchel charges were coming in everywhere and going off, they counted twenty some charges that didn‟t go off around me. At one point I was looking down at the top of the mountain, watching the battle and didn‟t understand what was happening. I kept saying, “I got to get back and help them, I got to get back and help them”. Interviewer: So, where are you relative to the rest of the men in the platoon at this point? You had your circle and part of it got broken into. They came up our side. It was me, sarge, Lieutenant, we were on this part of the mountain here, and we had people to right, people to the left and all the way around the circle. 46:09 it was basically sheer rock coming up this way and sheer rock here, but that‟s the side he decided to come up. Moments after the battle started the sergeant‟s weapon jammed; he grabbed the radio off me, and went to the center of the circle. When I came to, I still had my hand on my weapon. I took care of business, they were close, 25 �they were closer to me than you are right now, whether they were getting ready to pick my body I don‟t know, but I took care of business. Interviewer: So, were you knocked out by concussion from a blast? Probably for the satchel charges at that point, many of them. 47:01 Interviewer: Ok, but did you remember the sergeant taking your radio? No Interviewer: So, basically— When I came to—sarge said, in the hospital, that I was out for a long time. When I came to, my ear drums were gone, I heard nothing. I saw those dinks looking at me every time a charge would go off, and I did what I had to do. At this time I realized the sarge wasn‟t next to me, the lieutenant was lifeless, and every time a flash would go off I‟d see a new face. I had a basic lead M16 with twenty-one magazines and carried an extra seven. Sarge kept yelling, “Go help little David, they‟re all dead”, and I realized I was the only one left of basically on half a perimeter circle. 48:04 Finally Greg, who was the “thumper man”, grenadier, he said, “Got to do something‟, so he came running. As he was running toward sarg, he was running into the dinks. The thumper has to make seven revolutions to be armed on the warhead, and they were going right through the dinks. In the hospital they asked Sims, “What did you do?” He said, “I got dinks up there with holes in them”, well they didn‟t explode, so they went through them. To sarg he got some and from sarg to me he got more. Interviewer: Did they know where you were? You were firing, so they guessed that was you, at that point? Yes. We always made sure where our positions were before the lights went out. 49:03 26 �Interviewer: did you stay in your position then and just fire from there, or did you try to move and get to where the sergeant was? I stayed there because if I would have left, nobody would have made it. Then finally Greg made it to me, a dink jumped up real close, shot an RPG, it went between us, it exploded behind us, we both received shrapnel and as Greg was thumping his thumper he got shot in the side. He went down, but we held that part of the perimeter. Daylight came and the 3rd platoon was at the bottom of the hill on another little knoll, and as they made their way, when the battle started, they got ambushed, so it took them a while to take care of the ambush. 50:05 They finally made their way to us at daylight, and as they came up the backside, over to us, the sergeant came running over to help me my position with Greg. He got shot, I carried him back and that‟s when one of the medics was there and said, “You‟re not going anywhere soldier, stay here”, and that‟s when other people from the 3rd platoon---at one point Greg called in a flare ship, he can‟t hear, his eardrums are bleeding, he‟s screaming for help, and at one point the first flare ship out landed right behind me. I didn‟t even know. I was either out or I was too busy doing what I had to do. 51:00 The intense—when the doc told me I was wounded, that‟s when I said “ouch‟. Up to that point I had no idea I was wounded. The adrenalin was pumping so much that I had no pain. Interviewer: Was this shrapnel from the RPG? From the RPG, yes, and my back was peppered, I‟m sure it looked like a screen. Interviewer: At some point do they medevac you out of there? As everything got secured more, they called in for the medevacs, and they loaded up the guys that were the worst and then on the last helicopter out there was myself, Greg, sarge 27 �we called Greek, and our forward observer who called in the—we finally got a forward observer, he had direct contact with the artillery in the rear for our position, for fire. 52:05 Interviewer: So, were you able to get---how close in do they call for artillery in that situation, practically on top of you? We popped our flares in front of us as the gun ships were coming in, so they wouldn‟t go beyond a certain point. When the flares ran out we lit our C4 and popped it in front of us, so they had some kind idea of how far to come in. Interviewer: Now, were you doing that while you were in your original position at night? Yes, and I would jump from my hole to the sarge‟s hole. It was all rock, so the holes weren‟t that deep, but as the charges would come in I would jump and they would go off. Interviewer: So, you would go back and forth between those and not just stay in one place and wait for them. No Interviewer: While you’re doing all that, how long of time do you think this took, the fire fight you’re in, five hours or not? 53:05 From the time it started, on the Intel report, I think it lasted like three hours. During that time we had no recollection. It wasn‟t, in fact, until I applied for the intelligence reports that we actually knew what happened, and why it happened. The Generals in the rear knew that there was a battalion of NVA in our area where our company was held, but they didn‟t tell us that. 28 �Interviewer: And they targeted, specifically, your platoon, and the ambushed another one. Was there a 3rd platoon in the company out there somewhere? The 3rd platoon was at the bottom of the hill. Interviewer: Right, and what was your platoon? We were the 2nd platoon. Interviewer: Where was the 1st platoon? The 1st platoon, I have no recollection. They were out there somewhere. Interviewer: When you’re in that kind of situation, are you just kind of reacting automatically or do you have some kind of survival sense, and do you not even know why you did what you did? 54:02 You just do what they trained you to do. Interviewer: Now, you survived this, do they take you—do you go back to Evans or where do you go? They took us to an aid station, from the aid station they flew us to—they flew ne to 67 evac, and I met Greg and Greek at the hospital. Interviewer: Where was that? In Nam, close to Camp Evans Interviewer: So, it’s still at that area? That same area, yes Interviewer: How long were you in the hospital? Every day they would, after they stabilized me and did what they had to do, every day they would work me closer to Cam Ranh Bay, which was in the southern part, and I got 29 �shot up on May 7th, and I was home, back in the states for Memorial Day. 55:07 I spent four months in the hospital. Interviewer: What hospital were you in then in the states/ I ended up at Valley Forge, Pennsylvania, in the veterans hospital. Interviewer: After all of that, do you get discharged, or do you still have time left? I had a year left. They trained me for four months, I was off, I was five months in the hospital, I had a little less than a year to go, well eleven months. When I was discharged from the hospital they told me I was a clerk and they sent me to Fort Dix, New Jersey. Interviewer: Was that where you spent the rest of your time? Yes, the rest of my year. Interviewer: What did you do there? What was life like then in the last year? 56:00 It was hard readjusting from the hospital right back to civilian life. Military life stateside, it was—people around me, they didn‟t want to talk about it or listen about it. You know, I kept everything inside. You still had your quirks from nam, noises, didn‟t trust people, etc. Interviewer: What was the actual work you were doing there? I was in charge of the National Guard, crybabies that wanted to go home before their training was over. Interviewer: Were you just processing their paperwork? Just paperwork and record keeping to make sure their records were up to snuff. Interviewer: Was this just a nine to five sort of job? Basically 30 �Interviewer: Did you live on the base? I lived on the base, still had duties to company, KP, they assigned me to a burial detail. 57:03 They started one up because of the boys coming back. People were requesting military funerals I did five of those and I told the old man, “I can‟t do this anymore”. Interviewer: What proportion of the men around you, that you had been working with, had been to Vietnam already? I would say half. Interviewer: Did you guys talk to each other, or did you just kind of stay in your own? We stayed in our own perimeters. Interviewer: Were there things you could do to blow off steam or relive tension? Did you go into New York, or do anything like that? No, I kind of stayed low and did my time. Interviewer: Were you communicating with family during this time? Yes Interviewer: What were you telling them? What were you saying to them? That everything was fine and don‟t worry. 58: 03 When I got to the hospital they made us write a letter, and when mom got it, it was in a nice clean envelope and she wouldn‟t open it, she thought something happened because all her other mail, guys would give it to me and I would put it in a paper sack, but it was dirty fingerprints on most of the letters. You know, they got dirty. When the helicopter came out, I made sure the mail bag got on the helicopter to go back. 31 �Interviewer: When you were out there in the field, in Vietnam, how often would you write? Once a month Interviewer: Were you getting stuff from home? Occasionally you would get a care package and they would send it out and you would share it with the people with you. Interviewer: Were you able to tell the people at home what to send? Did you send any requests back? Yes, I sent a request back for my dad to send me a sheath knife. They didn‟t give us any knives. 59:06 Salted Pumpkin seeds, sunflower seeds, anything with salt because the salt pills just weren‟t getting it. They packed stuff in popcorn and if there were no bugs in the popcorn when it got to us, we ate the popcorn, and cookies. Interviewer: Did you cook popcorn out in the field? It was all popped, they used it for packing. Interviewer: Oh, alright. To fill in the spaces Interviewer: Basically you family, at this point, doesn’t have any idea what it was that you were really doing while you were out there? No, they didn‟t Interviewer: So, you just kind of go through those last eleven months at Fort Dix, kind of do the job? 00:02 Just bide my time 32 �Interviewer: So, you get to the end—did anybody make any effort to get you to reenlist or anything like that? No, they had my ceremony thirty days before I got out, and the recruiting officer said, “I know you‟re not going to re-up”, and I said, “You‟re right”. Interviewer: You had your ceremony, what are you referring to? The sarge put me in for the Medal of Honor for that night, I ended up with the Distinguished Service Cross, and they included my award ceremony on base with the retirement ceremony. They had a band and refreshments, my parents came up, and the General presented me, and said that was the highest award he has ever given anybody in his career. 1:03 Interviewer: Now, did that—how did you feel about that at that time? did it mean something to you? I didn‟t even know what it was, the rank of the medal. Interviewer: But they were making all of this show over you. On some level did you appreciate that, or would you rather have been left alone then? At that point I had very mixed emotions. Why are they honoring me for the ones that got killed? Interviewer: Now, we’ve gotten you, in your story here, to the point where you’ve come to the end of your time. You’ve been given the DSC etc., and the army has figured out they are not going to get you to come back, so you get discharged then in 1971. What do you do then once you’re out? 2:08 For a while I did nothing, and then I went back with the highway department. Interviewer: Did you stay with them? 33 �No, I moved on to different jobs. I worked a while and moved on to another job. Interviewer: Were you having just a hard time adjusting to civilian life after all the stuff you went through? Yes, it was hard Interviewer: What kind of—was there any kind of support provided by the VA or anybody else? I knew of no support at all, I was on my own. I kept to myself and what little friends I had, I kept them. Interviewer: Did you have friends who were your friends before you went off and came back to? Yes, dear friends, no Interviewer: Had any of your friends gone to Vietnam too, or just you? 3:07 Just me Interviewer: Was the moving on from job to job just kind of part of it? Were you just restless or impatient with things? I tried to better myself. I got in one place and they laid me off, and I finally landed a job at a construction outfit and did paper work and I was with him for nine years. Interviewer: Did you just kind of stay with construction or did you move on? No, at that point is when I lost it and I went to counseling, and moved on with my life the best I could. Interviewer: How did you wind up involved with the Ripcord Association? 4:02 Doing research and having my brother Greg locate me, and get in touch with me. I found the sarge and the three of us started getting together and answering a lot of questions we 34 �had for forty years, and finding this happened two months after we got shot up, and a lot of people had survived us, and Maureen [the hilltop where the last fight took place was called Maureen, and the rebuilt company fought near Firebase Ripcord in July, 1970] went on Ripcord and it was good getting associated with Ripcord. We all have different stories to tell, different emotions, and met the people that replaced us. Met the people who went from Maureen to Ripcord, and what they went through, and it‟s a good healing process. 5:06 Interviewer: Are you now retired or still working? I‟m still working and planning on retiring in January. Interviewer: What kind of work are you doing now? I‟m in heating, cooking and refrigeration out of our local, back home. Interviewer: To look back on the whole thing, if you had to go through it all again, would you have gone done it, or at least accepted the draft and gone forward with it? I‟d do it tomorrow Interviewer: What do you see as the positive aspect of the experience for you? Are you in some way better or wiser for what you went through? 6:00 I appreciate life, I appreciate friends, I don‟t take things for granted, and a lot of people don‟t accept me for that. Interviewer: At this point do you know who you are? I have a real good idea of who I am, and what I‟m still capable of doing. Interviewer: Well, you have a compelling story and you tell it well, and I want to thank you for taking the time to share it with us. 35 �Thank you sir 6:38 36 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource David, Kenneth (Interview transcript and video), 2011 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource David, Kenneth Description An account of the resource Ken David was born in Girard, Ohio in January of 1950. He graduated from high school in 1968 and was drafted a year later. He took basic training at Ft. Campbell, Kentucky, and Infantry AIT at Ft. Polk, Louisiana, and was sent to Vietnam in the fall of 1969. He was assigned to the 2nd platoon, D/1/506th Infantry, 101st Airborne Division. His company patrolled first in the lowlands near the coast south of the DMZ for a month, then spent about six weeks in the A Shau Valley at the end of the year. They then worked in the hill country to the north and west of the A Shau, and in early May the company's perimeter was hit by sappers, who overran the positions of David's platoon. He kept on fighting through the night, and was eventually joined by one of his friends. He was badly wounded in the fight and sent back to the US, and spent the rest of his hitch as a clerk at Fort Dix, New Jersey. He received the Distinguished Service Cross for his actions in his last battle. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-10-07 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DavidK1276V Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/73c66624f286ebe43c242d3e2fa8a855.mp3 43d03774ef532539e8edd86184937844 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Richard A. Rhem Collection Description An account of the resource Text and sound recordings of the sermons, prayers, services, and articles of Richard Rhem, pastor emeritus of Christ Community Church in Spring Lake, Michigan, where he served for 37 years. Starting in the mid 1980's, Rhem began to question some of the traditional Christian dogma that he had been espousing from the pulpit. That questioning was a first step in a long and interesting spiritual journey, one that he openly shared with his congregation. His journey is important, in part because it is reflective of the questioning, the yearnings, and the gradual revision of beliefs that many persons in this part of the century have experienced and continue to experience. It is important also because of the affirming and inclusive way his questioning was done and his thinking evolved. His sermons and other written and spoken materials together document the steps in his journey as it took a turn in 1985, yet continued to revolve around the framework and liturgies of the Christian calendar. Subject The topic of the resource Clergy--Michigan Reformed Church in America Christ Community Church (Spring Lake, Mich.) Religion Interfaith worship Sermons Sound Recordings Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rhem, Richard A. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/514">Richard A. Rhem papers (KII-01)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Kaufman Interfaith Institute Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KII-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1981-2014 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 text/pdf Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Event Pentecost XXIV Series No Stained Glass Saints Scripture Text I Chronicles 29:14, Acts 13:22 Location The location of the interview Christ Community Church, Spring Lake, MI Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KII-01_RA-0-19861102 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1986-11-02 Title A name given to the resource David: This Was a Man After God's Own Heart Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Richard A. Rhem Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Clergy--Michigan Reformed Church in America Christ Community Church (Spring Lake, Mich.) Sermons Relation A related resource Richard A. Rhem - An Archive of Sermons, Prayers, Talks and Stories: http://richardrhem.org/ Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource A sermon given by Richard A. Rhem (Dick) on November 2, 1986 entitled "David: This Was a Man After God's Own Heart", as part of the series "No Stained Glass Saints", on the occasion of Pentecost XXIV, at Christ Community Church, Spring Lake, MI. Scripture references: I Chronicles 29:14, Acts 13:22. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives