214 24 26018 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d89e82cdb7fdf9871c4777acc929854c.m4v cdd4b4d5eae5ca4dd74308b77e4c3f7d https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f2587ebd8f52e08af241e21a1e6e7ab5.m4v b8e817abc8f689c44b3752093dd54445 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/21df2591ed4ab2c09d1a25b138a904dc.pdf aba268c1a0a81c52204086950e717e00 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans' History Project Kent Fisher Vietnam War Era-Stateside Service Part 1 – 43 minutes 38 seconds (00:00:48) Early Life -Born on July 1, 1946 in Lansing, Michigan -Spent majority of his early life in Howell, Michigan -Father had come out of the Army as a result of World War II ending -Oldest of three children -Howell was a great place to grow up -Enjoyed life in Howell -Father worked in medical sales and his sales area was shifted to west Michigan -Had to drive 100 miles to get to his sales area -Heard that a new high school, Forest Hills Central, was being opened -Also heard that a new college, Grand Valley State College (now university), was opening -Moved to the Grand Rapids area when he was 14 years old -Attended Grand Valley State College -Wanted to attend Michigan State University to play basketball -Father wanted him to attend GVSC because of its low cost and liberal arts program -Studied English -Started Grand Valley's basketball team -Wanted to be close to home, but not too close -Moved to Allendale, Michigan in his sophomore year of college (00:04:58) Civil Unrest & the Vietnam War -Aware of the civil unrest in the 1960s especially on college campuses -Different atmosphere at Grand Valley meant there was no unrest on that campus -Students had more conservative values -Saw college as a place to prepare for a job and adulthood -Aware of the Vietnam War -Enrolled at Grand Valley in 1964 as the Vietnam War escalated -Felt that if the American government wanted to fight the war, then it must be right -To him, the escalation of the war made sense (00:08:15) Enlisting in the Coast Guard -Felt he had a duty to serve the United States -Father died after his freshman year of college -Significant personal change -His dog also died, he broke up with his girlfriend, and he became eligible for the draft in 1968 -If he stayed in school then it meant he was not at risk of being drafted -Army allowed four years of college deferment, and after fourth year he was eligible to be drafted -Didn't matter if he had a degree, or not -Took the Armed Forces Exam at Fort Wayne in Detroit -Qualified for every branch of service -Relatives had served in previous wars -Had been exposed to the Coast Guard growing up in Michigan -Remembers having a positive image of the Coast Guard in northern Michigan -Search and rescue operations, law enforcement, and a general sense of professionalism �-Attended the Coast Guard Festival in Grand Haven, Michigan -Vietnam War escalated even further in 1967 and 1968, and grew out of control -It became apparent that the United States could not defeat North Vietnam -Didn't want to get drafted into the Army -Knew the Coast Guard was a defensive branch and had better living arrangements -Slept in beds and ate hot meals -Coast Guard had a limited enlistment quota -Without a degree or an applicable skill he couldn't be an officer -Meant he would have more trouble being enlisted -Left college in the summer of 1968 after getting married -Went to the Coast Guard recruiting station in Grand Rapids and enlisted -Told to go home and wait for his call to service (00:16:14) Basic Training -Received his call to service in mid-December 1968 and reported in Detroit -Quit his construction job and within four days he was ready to leave -Wife drove him to Detroit -He was sworn in in Detroit -Sent to Cape May, New Jersey for basic training -Lasted nine weeks -Received a draft notice by way of telegram from the Army -Didn't know if he was considered a deserter -Reported to his commanding officer to ask if he was in trouble -Commanding officer tore up the telegram and threw it away -For the rest of training, his commander teased him about the draft -Never became an issue -Ten years later he ran into his former recruiter at a Coast Guard festival -Told Kent that he had just made it into the Coast Guard -Told that Cape May was in the top three most challenging basic training programs -Both physically and emotionally challenging -Removal of certain civilian habits -Learned Coast Guard vernacular -Floors became “decks,” windows became “ports,” and stairs became “ladders” -Focus of basic training was changing recruits through “shock therapy” -Rapidly immersed into a new way of life and a different culture -He was homesick -Winters in New Jersey were wet, cold, snowy, and rainy -Forced the recruits to focus on their training -If you deviated from training you were punished with extra physical training -If you made enough mistakes you were discharged or “reverted” - “Reversion” meant being sent back a number of weeks to restart training -Discharge during basic training meant you were unfit for military service -Taught him self reliance -Had to rely on himself during basic training -Basic training also instilled a high degree of teamwork -Using your personal skills to help the rest of the unit -Had to learn to trust and be confident in the skills of the other Coast Guardsmen (00:28:06) Training at Coast Guard Station Emerald Isle -Wanted to be assigned to a station in the 9th Coast Guard District in the Great Lakes area -Request was considered, but Coast Guard need took precedence �-Assigned to a station in the 5th Coast Guard District -Stations in Virginia, North Carolina, and part of South Carolina -Assigned to Coast Guard Station Emerald Isle -16 man lifeboat station close to Swansboro, North Carolina -Received ten days of leave before reporting to Coast Guard Station Emerald Isle -Made preparations for his wife to live near him -Reported to Emerald Isle on March 10, 1969 -A large deal of adjusting to the local culture -Different dialect (mix of Cockney English and American Southern English) -He was a Seaman Apprentice -Original plan was to do four years with the Coast Guard then get out -Return to Michigan, complete college, teach English and coach basketball -Believed the Vietnam War would be totally over by 1973 -Training at Coast Guard Station Emerald Isle meant learning a new set of skills -Firefighting, boat handling, ropes and lines, painting, cleaning, and radio communications -Learned these new skills on the job -Worked from dawn until dusk -He was considered exceptionally different -College educated -Had a northern accent -Some of the men thought he was a Coast Guard Intelligence officer doing undercover work -This was because he paid so much attention to detail -Stationed there for eight months (00:33:57) Training at Governors Island -Applied for Advanced Training which would lead to an advance in rank to petty officer -Note: Petty officer is equivalent to non-commissioned officer in Army, Air Force, or Marines -Applied for Yeoman School and he was accepted -Learning how to do clerical work in the Coast Guard -Courtroom paperwork, discharge paperwork, enlistment paperwork, building records, and leave records -Worked in offices -Warm and dry in the winter, and cool in the summer -Trained at Governors Island, New York -Wife stayed in Grand Rapids, Michigan while he trained at Governors Island (00:35:50) Basketball in the Coast Guard -While at Emerald Isle he played pick-up games of basketball on a parking lot court -At Governors Island there was a basketball league -Teams from other training groups competed against each other (00:36:55) Stationed at Coast Guard Station Emerald Isle -After three months of training at Governors Island he became a petty officer -Returned to Coast Guard Station Emerald Isle, North Carolina -He had only been on loan to Governors Island for training -Still part of the 5th District -Worked on a Coast Guard cutter, USCGC Verbena -100 foot long construction ship -Built navigation aids in the inter-coastal waterways and serviced buoys -Set up lights and reflective markers for boats -Used sextants to mark the locations of the navigation aids -Able to conduct search and rescue missions and assist law enforcement �-Remembers there was a junction where a waterway met a channel that led to the Atlantic Ocean -An 85 foot ship missed a navigation aid and ran aground -The station called the Verbena to investigate the situation -Insure that the navigation aid had been properly placed -Pulled the ship back into the water and went aboard to talk to the captain -See if he was drunk, or if he had improper charts -He was sober and had been sailing from New York -Asked to see his charts -Complied and produced a gas station map, not an actual naval chart -Captain of the ship sailed south and ran aground, again, in South Carolina -Got dislodged and got out of the 5th District -Last they heard he ran aground a third time in southern South Carolina Part 2 – 53 minutes 20 seconds (00:00:34) Promotion to Officer & Assignment to USCGC Munro -Promoted to the rank of E-5 (petty officer second class) -Received transfer orders -He was the second petty officer in the 5th District with the most seniority -Transferred to the High Endurance Cutter, USCGC Munro -Had its home port in Boston -Had a son by time he gained rank and received his new orders -Moved his wife and son to Grand Rapids, Michigan -Reported to Newport, Rhode Island where the Munro was being built -Coast Guard drew on petty officers from all over the country to build the ship's crew -Ship was completed in August 1970 -Met the officers of the ship and the captain -Sailed to New Orleans, then from New Orleans to Guantanamo Bay, Cuba -Conducted anti-mine training -It was a fast ship -Top speed was classified -Fast enough to keep pace with nuclear-powered submarines -Ship's home port was Boston and he and his family lived in Lawrence, Massachusetts -Sailed to Guantanamo Bay for Underway Training -Practicing basic routines to insure everyone remembered how to do them -Participated in the ship's commissioning in September 1971 -Escorted Douglas Munro's mother during the commissioning ceremony -Douglas Munro was the only Coast Guardsmen to have been awarded the Medal of Honor -Posthumously rewarded for action at Guadalcanal in 1942 (00:08:05) Drug & Alcohol Abuse Program -Assigned to Washington D.C. and stationed at the Coast Guard Headquarters -Worked in the Personnel Services Division -Trained by the Navy in San Diego as a drug & alcohol abuse specialist -By 1971 and 1972 the drug problem had ballooned -A lot of men were returning from southeast Asia with serious drug addictions -A $5/day habit in Vietnam was a $100/day habit in the United States -A lot of men turned to theft to fund their addictions -Traveled to Coast Guard stations and offices all over the country -12 District offices �-Coast Guard Academy -Coast Guard Headquarters -Training Centers -Mission was to establish drug & alcohol abuse and prevention programs -Trial and error process (00:11:00) Becoming an Officer -Selected for Officer Candidate School -Trained with enlisted men and college graduates -OCS lasted 18 weeks -He was still on active duty while other candidates were Reservists -Graduated with the rank of O-1 (ensign) and received a temporary commission -Promoted to the rank of O-3 (lieutenant) -He was discharged as an enlisted man, and was immediately sworn back in as an officer -Given an indefinite service length -Only ended if he retired, or was passed over for promotion two times -Knew the Coast Guard would become a career -Commissioned in December 1973 (00:15:15) Assignment to USCGC Tamaroa & End of the Vietnam War -Assigned to the Coast Guard cutter USCGC Tamaroa in New York -Joined the ship in January 1974 -Vietnam War was coming to an end -People complained to Coast Guardsmen about taxes and the Vietnam War -Not as much animosity toward Coast Guardsmen as toward members of other branches -Always lived and worked in a civilian community -People understood the Coast Guard assisted the Navy in Vietnam -Also understood the Coast Guard focused on humanitarian missions and saving lives (00:19:02) Stationed at Governors Island -Stationed at Governors Island, New York as a duty officer -Worked in the Coast Guard Atlantic Area Rescue Coordination Center -Conducting search and rescue missions and operating east of the Mississippi River -He was a rescue planner, worked in navigation, and coordinated with the British (00:20:48) Sinking of the SS Edmund Fitzgerald -Area commander had a search and rescue telephone linked to other rescue coordination centers -When the red light on the phone lit up, it meant a search and rescue operation was underway -On the night of November 10, 1975 the phone rang from RCC-Cleveland -A freighter named the SS Edmund Fitzgerald had gone missing on Lake Superior -Made plans to send out everything available to search for the freighter -Knew that a major storm had been coming, but powerless to stop shipping on Lake Superior -No rescue operations possible until November 11 when the storm passed -70 knot (80.55 miles per hour) winds with 30 foot high waves -Established a search and rescue plan at 7:30 p.m., but had to wait until morning to launch it -Thought about the men and their families and prayed the men died a quick death -Knew they had either died quickly from the ship sinking, or freezing to death in the water -Saddened by Gordon Lightfoot's folk ballad “The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald” -Also proud of it though, because it references the Coast Guard and life in northern Michigan -The vicar, Richard Ingalls, at the Mariners' Church had been the parish priest in Howell -Rang the bell 29 times to commemorate the number of lives lost (00:28:22) Command of Coast Guard Station Cape May -Given command of the Coast Guard Station at Cape May, New Jersey �-Most active station in terms of search and rescue, anti-pollution, and law enforcement -High amount of traffic in the area, especially from Memorial Day to Labor Day -Worked 24/7 dealing with fires, medical emergencies, etc. -Had an auxiliary Coast Guard unit and a Coast Guard helicopter unit to assist them -Remembers flying out to a ship that had caught fire and been abandoned -The crew put out the fire, then abandoned the ship, but it had taken on water -He flew out, was lowered to the ship, and helped pump out the water to save the ship -First shore unit to have women working in all enlisted capacities except for radar and gunnery -Did just as good as their best male counterparts -Even the bad female personnel did better than their bad male counterparts -Received some small arms training -Search and rescue operations, search and clear ships -Conducted law enforcement operations -Seized ships, arrested a number of people, searched ships, and seized goods -Stationed at Coast Guard Station Cape May for three years (00:35:48) Stationed at 9th District Commander's Office -Transferred to the 9th District Commander's Office in Cleveland to work as a recruiting officer -Managed recruiting offices and sub-offices in the greater Great Lakes area -Visited the offices and made sure proper protocols were being followed -Had enlistment quotas -Urged to get African-American and Native American recruits -Went to Indian Reservations to look for possible recruits -Natives fired warning shots at government vehicles -Stopped once they found out they were Coast Guard personnel -Trusted them, not the “bad” government -At that time they had fewer Coast Guard personnel than the New York City police -Coast Guard has grown since the September 11th Attacks (00:40:00) Deaths of Presidents -While at the Coast Guard Headquarters he was selected for the Honor Guard at Arlington Cemetery -During President Johnson's funeral (1973) -Had been part of the Honor Guard when President Truman died (1972) -Stood for an hour by the casket then got two hours off -Had to stand at full attention in his dress uniform -Learned how to give and receive silent commands to be relieved from duty -Tremendous honor -Stood a few feet from President Nixon, but couldn't look at him or talk to him -Felt a single bead of sweat rolling down his back -Couldn't scratch his back to relieve the itch -Thought about each president's place in history, and his own place in history by being at the funeral (00:45:18) Stationed at Coast Guard Station Muskegon & Promotion to Lieutenant Commander -Promoted to the rank of O-4 (lieutenant commander) before leaving Cleveland -Sent to the Coast Guard command station in Muskegon, Michigan -Managed stations on the east shore of Lake Michigan (from Michigan City to Frankfort) -Felt great to be back in Michigan -Had a $600,000 budget for all stations -Able to use everything he had learned in the Coast Guard -Station activity slowed down in the winter -Stowed the cutters during the winter -Gave leave to station personnel �-Sent necessary personnel to Coast Guard stations on the Gulf of Mexico -They were always busy and the Michigan personnel relieved those personnel -Had “Coast Guard Night” with the Muskegon Lumberjacks hockey team (00:48:47) Retirement from the Coast Guard -Told he could retire with 19 years and six months, or go to Governors Island, or go to Adak, Alaska -Decided to return to Governors Island, New York -Stationed there for three years -Served as the Chief of News & Photos -Became the Chief of Administration for that area -Retired from Governors Island -Son was attending Grand Valley State University -Mother-in-law was suffering from late-stage Alzheimer's Disease -Both factors contributed to his decision to retire from the Coast Guard -Put his retirement orders into effect on May 1, 1990 after 22 years of Coast Guard service (00:52:11) Work & Study at Grand Valley State University -Started studying at Grand Valley State University on May 7, 1990 -Returned to Michigan and completed a degree at Grand Valley State University -Got a degree in advertisement & public relations communications -Hired by Grand Valley State University to work in Alumni Relations -Raising funds -Became the Associate Director of Alumni Relations -Did that for nine years -Retired from Grand Valley State University on January 1, 2007 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_FisherK1938V Title A name given to the resource Fisher, Kent E (Interview outline and video), 2016 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-06-13 Description An account of the resource Kent Fisher was born on July 1, 1946 in Lansing, Michigan. He enlisted in the Coast Guard in the summer of 1968 and was called up for service in December 1968. He received his basic training at Cape May, New Jersey then received further training at Coast Guard Station Emerald Isle, North Carolina. From Emerald Isle he went to Governors Island, New York, where he attended Yeoman School. He returned to Emerald Isle and worked on the Coast Guard cutter, USCGC Verbena. He was promoted to the rank of petty officer second class and received orders to join the USCGC Munro. He was selected for Officer Candidate School, graduated with the rank of ensign, and was then promoted to lieutenant. He joined the USCGC Tamaroa in January 1974 and served aboard the ship until he was reassigned to the Coast Guard Atlantic Area Rescue Coordination Center, where he helped plan the search and rescue operations for the SS Edmund Fitzgerald. He was then given command of Coast Guard Station Cape May, New Jersey and from there was transferred to the 9th District Commander's Office in Cleveland, Ohio. He also served at Coast Guard Station Muskegon, Michigan, and ended his career at Governors Island, New York, as the Chief of News & Photos. He retired from the Coast Guard on May 1, 1990 after 22 years of service and with the rank of lieutenant commander. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Fisher, Kent Edmonson Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American United States. Coast Guard Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/x-m4v application/pdf https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/089e648bc2e9e83f40c1204617b390f2.pdf 8c7a9f6075cb78ab00d822fd63e9cbde PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Interviewee: Anna Fisk Interviewers: Zak Johnson, Andrew Guerkink, and Peter Braseth Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 2/26/2012 Biography and Description Anna Fisk was born and raised in Grand Rapids, Michigan. She is an advocate and activist. She discusses growing up being lesbian in a Christian household. Transcript JOHNSON: We are currently recording. GUERKINK: We are on the books. JOHNSON: Cool, forever. GUERKINK: Ok, so there are just a few things we have to get through. A little spew I have to say. So, My name is Andrew and I am here today with Anna Fisk it is February 16 the year 2012 ah and we are in grand valley's Kirkhof center here in Allendale Michigan. And we are going to talk about here experience here in West Michigan. so, could you, please, give us your full name. FISK: Ah, Anna Fisk. Anna Marie Fisk GUERKINK: And where and when were you born? FISK: I was born in Grand Rapids at Butterworth Hospital October 20th 1981. GUERKINK: And your parents, siblings, family? FISK: Names or? GUERKINK: Names, or whatever you like. FISK: My mother is Lou Ellen Fisk. My dad is Gene Fisk. Ah siblings, oldest is Kelly Fisk uh then Jeremy Fisk and then Elijah Fisk. We all have the same last name cuz of marriage and divorce reasons but [Laughter]. We're all Fisks. [Laughter] GUERKINK: And so we want to talk broadly about your experience in West Michigan, you were born here in Butterworth; I was born in St. Mary's so in West Michigan how do you define yourself? What is Page 1 �your identity? FISK: In West Michigan well, I am and advocate and activist firstly...at this point in my life anyway. I'm a lesbian. I am white I am privileged, I am working class. GUERKINK: Do you feel like, the things you described those are the things you see yourself as, in this area when people look at you do they see the same things? Do you believe that? FISK: I think they do, actually. Maybe because my hair, I like to do fun things with my hair I always have. I used to dye it all different colors when I was younger. I can't tell you how many times I’ve been called sir. Which I'm like? But throughout my life except when I had long hair but I cut it short when I was 16. And mostly it happens from people who are highly intoxicated and probably living on the street. I correct them or they see my face and they say sorry. so I think that it's kind of obvious and people are like, "she must be a lesbian." I present more masculine than feminine probably, and it’s obvious that I white and therefore privileged. I don't know if working class is all written on me, but maybe my values or something. GUERKINK: So you talk about your phase of doing things with your hair when you first cut it off. Sort of when, you are seen by other people, they say, "oh she's a different girl" cuz you like to different things with your hair. Was there a point in your life when you were like, "hey I'm totally different from others around me because I wanna cut all of my hair off and go something crazy?" FISK: Absolutely, especially coming from a rural place. I went to Tri-Counties Schools, quite rural, literally surrounded by corn fields. It's on the borders of Malcolm, Newaygo, and Kent counties so it's... I mean there were so many dirt roads when I was going to high school. so let's see, I came out when I was 16. It was during the next years or so that I cut off my hair. It was reflecting my inner feelings of feeling different. My clothing style didn't really change much. I guess you could say very tomboy. I was always athletic looking. I did start dying it really like platinum. I even shaved it a couples times when I was 17/18/19. JOHNSON: Demi Moore FISK: And that was cool back then, and I did not look cute. GUERKINK: It’s just so funny, I don't wanna get too personal but my sister did the same things, she had her phase of platinum and cut really short and its just funny because you do have those feeling inside and you wanna get them out and so i wanna stay on topic with you and go with when you were going through those phases. Were there people in your life around you who encouraged you to develop who you are and your identity and embrace the outward expression of what’s inside? FISK: No. [Laughter]. My family was and still is, I mean a little background. JOHNSON: Yeah, please I'd like to hear about it. FISK: They I grew up in the best way to describe it is Pentecostal tradition. Christian. a lot of shouting raising your hand in church a lot of worship and literally people doing like things that outsiders would come in and say, "what the hell are you doing?" right. Like, "what are you doing right now?" When I was Page 2 �little, I would sit and draw during church cuz it was like 3-4 hours long. so that was my religious upbringing. And I was actually quite involved in church. I mean we went to Pentecostal church when I was growing up and then we started going to Free Methodist Church because my mom's family went there so we wanted to be close to them or something. She also played piano also at all the churches we went to so they need pianists and so she went to the Free Methodist Church which was quite mundane compared to the Pentecostal churches. And I became quite active in the youth group there I was like a pre-teen and I was like a teenager it was very religious and I say religious because I really bought into the religion part of it. And I kinda developed by own spirituality from that also and started going to a different church called, Bella vista church by Rockford. I started going there when I was like 16. Anyway back to the original question. My family, I don't know. They didn't condone it, they said, or anything but they're very, very loving people. and my mom is very like very emotional and, (of her mother) "I'm very emotionally connected to my children, let's have a heart to heart talk and be honest with each other." And my dad actually worked 3rd shift most of my life so he was kinda absent honestly throughout most of my life I did really spend a lot of time with him he would uh work all night and then sleep all day, get up, have dinner, watch TV, take a nap, and go to work. That was it. And the weekends he was in the garage. I mean, the most he ever said to me when I first came out was, "ah, I kinda noticed you were a lesbian" I was like ok cool. "ah, ok I m gonna go work on some cars." [Laughter] and I was having my own internalized homophobia feelings and really just strugglin' and they didn't really offer to like help, necessarily, but "oh maybe you should go to therapy" because that was the only way, "go to therapy." So I could be like fixed or I could fight the desire and still have a "normal" heterosexual life. So, I mean, they weren't like were kicking me out. For a lot of teenager the coming out process you may as well, its almost better, if your parents or guardians are like, "well just leave then" because then you're leaving this place where they aren't accepting you and they're thinking things about you. GUERKINK: You know where you stand. FISK: Right. It's almost like so many things are unspoken and they're thinking so many things and there talking to each other about things. And my mom has a large family and I know she's calling every one, "Oh feel bad for me because my daughter is gay." So they were really, I mean, they knew that I was like this wacky teenager before I came out and I was always like the crazy teen out spoken and did weird things. So one time, when I did shave my head and I was a little bit older and I had actually kinda moved out but not really I was 17 it didn't really work out that well, I had shaved my head and moved back home and my dad was like, "look please don't shave you head again." [Laughter] and so I was like, "cool, ok I won't shave my head again." I mean there was really no encouragement. GUERKINK: So, no encouragement from home, but no one really discouraging you from being yourself it wasn't as if someone was telling you, "look you have to completely change who you are or else we are not going to love you." Was that, you don't paint that out to be particularity positive, but was that positive for you? At least you knew people still loved you, even if people didn't talk about it? FISK: I don't know, I mean I've struggled with it for some years. I've been out for like 14 years now and I don't know if it's like I don't know if it's worse to live with that and like almost like I condone because I am still participating and active in their lives i don't know its about love ta that point people use live as a masking of hate. to cover it up is like the white elephant. Even in general when people are commenting, "I don't care what you don you in the bedroom i still love you." Well it does matter because its not about sex it's about loving someone. It's likes saying racist doesn't exist because we love each other. And the fact that they never really did their own research or got books-and I could suggest books about being gay and being Christian and how to deal with having a gay son or daughter- when ur a Christian or Page 3 �something. Go to a PFLAG meeting or something like that, they never, no. JOHNSON: So what is your relationship like with your mom after coming out? FISK: Well m, I mean my mom and I have always been really close. I guess, we always had a lot of fun together. We'd laugh and go shopping. I was the only kid who would love to go shopping so we did that all the time. And just crack up about things and just laugh for hours on end. And that part continued, we still kinda but, there was always this tension after i came out. there still kind of is there's been some pretty good breakthroughs in the past couple of years only I think we kinda didn't talk about it much. I would try to talk about who I was dating or something and she would kinda like not really respond so it definitely strained it quit a bit. I went through so many years where I struggle with, if i should talk to my parents because maybe they're not saying, "screw you don't bring your partner home" m, I don't know it did change. GUERKINK: You talk about your deep spirituality and you talk about suggesting books to read for your parents to sort of balance your faith and your identity was that a struggle to get to get to a good place and was it a struggle to get to that point? FISK: I am in a fantastic point. GUERKINK: You seemed like it. FISK: It took me a long time and i struggle tremendously and I struggled for many years with it. Initially after I came out other than my family or she needs therapy. I, myself, put a lot of pressure to change. I did not really know what being gay meant. I was 16 I had like boyfriends but they were not sexually active. It's all for show then usually or it was when i was a teenager. Just, having my first girlfriend we were very much in love and it was about loving each other and then of course sexual discovery and we would back and forth, breaking up, getting back together, and then we have to fight our urges and still be best friends. Of course it doesn't work out like that. GUERKINK: How long was the back and forth? FISK: It was at least a year. It was quite a bit of time. And then she went to the same church that I had started going to, Bella Vista. I told her, "why are you following me? we're supposed to be separate and not do this." And then [Laughter] I got involved with the youth group there and made some friends. Disclosed to my small group that i was struggling, "my struggle" we'd pray about it and things and then I had like this, its' so weird to think about it know being so far removed from it part of myself and that community but, I went with the youth group leader and this other women and this interpreter and she went through this booklet called, "Breaking the Bondage" it like a 12 step literal; I used to have it before I-I think I burned it. You walk through this steps where you disclose stuff and it's kinda weird, they have get rid of the demonic spirits living inside of you. After I did that, it was supposed to be cured and obviously it didn't work so I kind of stopped being as active and became really angry with my first girlfriend and she was following me there, so I was like, "well I'm m not going to go there." So I started getting involved in other things teenagers do. Started to party and began to ignore my spiritual part. I remember one night, and that was when I moved out, I lived in what we called the, "drug house" in Cedar with my older friend. He got married and then his wife left him after that. We know now that he had schizophrenia, we didn't' know that at the time. So we had this little house and a bunch of us lived there and it wasn't terrible but it was bad. Everyone was like always smoking weed and I didn't really Page 4 �smoke... Andrew/JOHNSON: You did not have to, you probably had a contact high. FISK: That what I liked about it, just watch Pokeman and get super high or like, "Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas." so I was living there and like a bunch of people and partying going on and I was like I don't wanna be here. So it was Thursday night and I was like, "oh, I'll go check out the youth group." It was kind of a large crowd there and you could stand in the back and blend in-or so I thought. I was standing in the back hanging out just, "strugglin'" and the youth leader, what was her name? Denise, oh by the way she works, I believe, at Mar's hill last time I checked, just an FYI. I like to call people out when I can cuz she a pretty horrible person. So, she pulls me aside, randomly found me, I was there for like 3 minutes and she taps me and starts to talk to me. So, she pulls me in this room and sits me down. All of the sudden my small group leader's there and someone else and her were like sitting around the table and I'm like, "what is going on" and she was like basically, "the pain you made us go through and all of this stuff and you put us through this stuff and your not changing and you obliviously don't have the desire to change and your negatively impacting the youth group." I was like, "First of all, I haven't been here for a while and second I'm not that important like not many people know me because I've not been there for a while." She says, "I'm not welcomed to any youth group events." I could still go to the big people church, and I was like, well, now way because no kid wants to go to that. And I was like so floored. Totally unexpected, caught off guard. I came there for refuse seeking refuge and they literally kicked me out. I mean I had to leave, they watched me leave. I got in my car and that was like as close I've ever come to just like killing myself quite frankly. It was, it highly impacted my emotional state. obviously I didn't. Andrew/Zak/BRASETH: Thankfully FISK: I just went back and to the party house and just sat there and whatever. So ya that was pivotal and then after that i didn't go to church anymore. I didn't seek fellowship with other Christians or anything kind of started to really--and I'm almost thankful for that moment because it really made me seek my own answers. JOHNSON: I'm sure you're really mad at God at this point. FISK: I was very much so like why? JOHNSON: Exactly you went back to this church to find refuge and find support and the one place you thought you'd go you saw the opposite. FISK: Yah, I was rejected and at that point I still believed in a Christian God and Jesus Christ, he's my Savior and all the principles I grew up with. But I was like I need to start doing this myself and really find the answers and forget what everyone else says... ANDREW, JOHNSON: Mhhm right FISK: But I’m like wow I need to start doing this myself and really finding these answers for myself and stop just listening to what everyone else says because that is quite ramped in the Pentecostal church to just listen to what the pastor says, and just go along with that. So I just started reading books, I found a book by Mel white, he used to write speeches and ghost write for people like Jerry Fawell actually, and Page 5 �pat Robertson and even- he’s a gay man, even after he came out he did write a couple of things for not jerry but I think maybe pat after he was out as a gay man, he's a reverend, he started a group called Soulforce, and they actually came to west Michigan a while ago, they are a non violent, direct action against spiritual violence against the LGBT community, he was like my hero for a very long time I read his book but I can’t remember the name, but it was very inspirational, and it sort of helped me to kind of look at things differently, what is this interpretation, what does this mean, obviously levitical code is all outdated it’s all old testament, so I going through the new testament, what does Paul mean, Corinthians, Romans I think people are surprised when people find out that I have a lot of knowledge about the bible and things JOHNSON: right FISK: because I don’t just readily go talking about it, so I kind of went through that phase, and then I started to get very angry with my parents and that’s when I was like I didn’t know if could talk to them, they are not listening to me they are totally rejecting me, even though they say they love me, and I can come over when ever I want, or hang out, it’s the principal of it JOHNSON: right FISK: so I went through that for quite some time, I tried not be gay a couple of times. During that time also, JOHNSON: what do you mean by that FISK: well, I tried – I know try not to be gay – [Laughter] GUERKINK: so far FISK: I was quite gay still [Laughter] but uh, trying to have a boyfriend and seeing if I could lead heterosexual life with a man. Zak right FISK: that didn’t JOHNSON: how did that make you feel when you tried to fight these – FISK: it, (exhales) it causes so much turmoil, having internalized homophobia is like talk about having a demon inside you, like having this turmoil GUERKINK: you need that 12 step program FISK: all the time, yeah, I mean just constant axiety, and rejection of your true self and covering it up, and playing roles because what they tell you, men and women have these roles, so you sort of try to be this role JOHNSON: try to make yourself fit in FISK: right, and just maybe dress more feminine, the shit the American family association tells you to do. Page 6 �JOHNSON: nuclear family, 2.3 children GUERKINK: yeah, the “bob” and a dress FISK: yeah and that lasted about 2 seconds and I was like JOHNSON: no way FISK: First of all this guy who was trying to like date was a complete asshole All: [Laughing] FISK: So and I actually knew him from Bellavista, and we like met somewhere at like Mars Hill or something. Cause I went to Mars hill for like 2.2 seconds. JOHNSON: A hot second GUERKINK: [Laughing] FISK: And actually I believe they are moving towards being an affirming church anyway, even though the Devo’s go there, or did, anyway, that’s a side note JOHNSON: Yeah, I read the Time article about Rob Bliss, he is very interesting FISK: Yeah, yeah he is, anyway I went there for like a hot second and I saw this guy and I was was like “oh this must be like divine intervention” [Laughter]. And so we like, we went to this Joyce Meyer conference together. And GUERKINK: Sighs JOHNSON: Who is Joyce Meyers? FISK: She a televangelist, basically, huge, huge, like worldwide following, and she’s a pretty funny lady, she’s southern, she has an accent, she has funny stories, and she’s really like quirky and people like her. She talks about abuse a lot so a lot of people can relate to her or something, or like overcoming an obstacle. And there was and I still really liked worship music, just because I still like music in general JOHNSON: Its good music FISK: Ah, the group from Australia, ah, can’t think of it know, anyway this woman Darlene Check, who wrote “Shout to The Lord” big in the 90’s, her group, her worship group was there and that was the only reason I wanted to go. So I was like oh sweet concert. GUERKINK: [Laughs] JOHNSON: [Laughs] FISK: Anyway and him and I went and by the end of that trip I was like “eff you, you suck”. JOHNSON: [Laughing] Wow Page 7 �GUERKINK: [Laughing] FISK: It was my birthday too. And he was just a complete asshole GUERKINK: Oh, awesome. JOHNSON: Sweet FISK: And then we had a conversation in my living room and he, well somehow we were kind of talking about sex, and he was like “oh yeah, well if you didn’t want to I would expect something else ya know”. And I was like well that ain’t happening. So see ya JOHNSON: Hooooo! sounds like a nice fellow FISK: Yeah he’s a great guy, great Christian guy GUERKINK: Yeah he sounds solid, not to judge your character. All: [Laughing] FISK: Anyway I didn’t have sex with him, he didn’t get what he was going for. Eventually I found out that [sex] was basically his motive. GUERKINK: Wow FISK: And after all that happened, I was like ok, I’m seriously super gay here All:[Laughing] FISK: Let’s just like get on with it, then I really started to go into the acceptance process I think JOHNSON: How long did that take, you came out when you were 16? FISK: Right JOHNSON: And you went through out these pretty formative years that were like, “maybe I’m not gay, maybe I can try and not be gay, but well no I am gay”. So what type of span in years are we talking to you finally saying “I’m gay, I love it, and I’m gonna go with it”? FISK: Let’s see (long pause), probably until maybe I was 23? I think JOHNSON: Took a while FISK: So quite a while, of back and forth JOHNSON: So 7 years GUERKINK: It’s not that long. Page 8 �FISK: Yeah it’s, yeah, having dysfunctional relationships because of it and that after I started really having meaningful, functional, long lasting relationships after that as well. JOHNSON: Great BRASETH: Could you tell me a little bit more about your childhood, just not specifically anything, but just general things you would like to talk about. FISK: Yeah, let’s see, well I grew up in a rural area, I loved where I lived it was a small town in the 80’s and you could run up to the party store, I would just run over there. You could run around without having fearing that something is going to happen to you. Ride your bikes all over town and go places. I really enjoyed my childhood and my friends. And then we moved to Grand Rapids for about a year and a half when I was in like third grade and fourth grade? I did not do well at all. JOHNSON: No? Big change FISK: Not at all, I became like severely depressed, missed like tons of school, they couldn’t figure out what was wrong with me, like my stomach hurt all the time. And eventually they took me to a psychiatrist or something and tried to give me medication but I would, I didn’t really eat that much so I would just like throw it up because it would upset my stomach. Apparently I found out later that my parents were having a really rough time as well, in their marriage. So like all this horrible shit happened when we moved to Grand Rapids so promptly moved back GUERKINK: [Laughing] JOHNSON: [Laughing] FISK: But we moved like out in the country as opposed to moving in town and I was like “oh this is great I’m going to be better here this is a great place”. And so, I had a fantastic time at that house it was a like an old school house JOHNSON: Cool FISK: We had friends that had horses JOHNSON: Nice FISK: It was a really good experience; I think my childhood for the most part. BRASETH: Could you tell me more about your family, not necessarily your parents but siblings anyone else you were close to. FISK: Yeah, I’m the youngest of 4. GUERKINK: hmph (sigh) FISK: My sister is like 11 or 12 years older than I am and then my brother Jeremy is a year younger than her. And then my brother Elijah and I are 3 years apart. so the dynamics were kind of weird. JOHNSON: Two and two Page 9 �FISK: My sister got stuck babysitting us a lot which she apparently resented JOHNSON: Mhmm FISK: Which she hated, she, she was quite rebellious, and got pregnant when she was 15 and had her first child when she was 16 and I was like 5 so my niece and I are like 5 years apart which kind of cool JOHNSON: That’s crazy FISK: Because I never had a younger sibling JOHNSON: Yeah that’s awesome FISK: Yeah well she ended up marrying the man of that child and he was extremely abusive to her so, they had another child, a few years later or something and she basically lived through hell and finally when he nearly choked her to death she finally left him JOHNSON: Thank God! FISK: Yeah and she came to live with us after that, her and this kids which was great, I loved it I loved having my niece and nephew around and I would babysit them, I was babysitting them when I was like 9 JOHNSON: Wow your grew up fast FISK: We were all very close, so they lived with us and that was great, especially because my dad worked third shift and my mom was always quite lonely so she, we just loved it. So it was my sister her to children, myself and my brother Elijah who was in high school at the time and my parents that lived in the house. My brother was signed up to go to the all night like basketball thing at the youth group JOHNSON: Like a lock in FISK: Yeah, a lock in and my sister volunteered to take him, it was like 10 or 11 at night, to go meet up with his friends and it was around Christmas time, she was going to bring him and come back and then we were all going to wrap like presents so my mom and I were getting the little kids in bed and are like popping popcorn. And all the sudden we get a phone call. Apparently on their way, they drove, or like a truck with those big headlights on top of it GUERKINK: Mhmm FISK: Had the headlights on and she was like messing with the radio and when she looked up she was blinded and spun off into the ditch and hit a tree. Luckily she like flew out of the door. It was a sweet car, it was beautiful 89 Monte Carlo, it was burgundy it was beautiful, and so like the big door flew open, and like some how she flew out. My brother like braced himself by doing this (acted out how her brother had braced for impact) and it impacted a tree on her side and it was completely crushed in. and he was like somehow safe, except he was like cut up really bad and his shoes came off for some reason All: [Laughs] FISK: He always remembers that he’s like “I didn’t have any shoes on and it was like winter” Page 10 �All:[Laughs] FISK: And they were in this swamp area, and so got out of the car and he could hear her like moaning and he’s like “oh, stay here” he was all bloody and he said “stay here I’ll go and get help” and the nearest house was probably a quarter mile away. JOHNSON: Oh my gosh FISK: So all this is going on, somebody, I don’t know, he eventually found some a woman’s house and knocked on her door and they called my mom and called the ambulance and everything and so my mom was just like “oh my god oh my god” and I was like what’s happening? JOHNSON: Right FISK: And I was in like 5th grade or something and she just like threw some clothes on and got in my older brothers, his, one of his cars was there for some reason even though he didn’t live there she didn’t really know how to drive it, but she like was smashing gears All: [Laughs] FISK: Like got to the site around the same time the volunteer fire people, because the nearest ambulance is like forever away JOHNSON: Right FISK: And some I’m just like there with the children and she like “I’ll call you or whatever” and there were no cell phones. My sister had broken her neck completely; it was like side by side and thankfully my brother didn’t touch her or move her when she was on the ground because that probably would have killed her. So she was in critical care for some time they had to like put her head in traction, bring it up set back on her neck JOHNSON: Like the halo FISK: Fuse it, yeah, and her spine was swollen but there was on spinal damage. GUERKINK: That’s good. FISK: Like I don’t know how she survived that. JOHNSON: Yeah, grace of god. FISK: Yeah and her lungs, her lung was punctured and stuff, she was on the verge of dying for quite some time. So that was pretty traatic for everyone. And I admire her so much now, and she went through another horrible relationship and divorce it wasn’t physical abuse but it was every other kind. JOHNSON: Yeah FISK: And she got out of that relationship and has been single ever since, we’ve actually grown quite close we would go to her son’s, my nephew’s football games together, we are pretty close now, and I’m close with both her children they are like my siblings. That is her story Page 11 �JOHNSON: She can walk and everything. FISK: Oh yeah, she is fine. JOHNSON: Oh my gosh FISK: She just has like a big scar, and she kind of turns like her whole body [Laughing] JOHNSON: Right FISK: We kind of make fun of her for it. JOHNSON: That’s unbelievable. FISK: Yeah she’s amazing, the fact that she is still living without having had any counseling or anything you know what I mean, and has just gotten through life in general so yeah, she’s, I admire her a lot, and then my other siblings, Jeremy married his high school sweet heart, and they have a two kids, he’s a mechanic. And Elijah got married when he was younger they have like 4 kids, they all actually live by each other GUERKINK: That’s cute FISK: Yeah like in a cul-de-sac, Jeremy lives a few miles away but both Kelly and Elijah and my parents live in like a cul-de-sac GUERKINK: [Laughing] JOHNSON: [Laughing] FISK: We call it the Fisk commune. GUERKINK: [Laughs] JOHNSON: [Laughs] That’s awesome! FISK: Yeah, Elijah, I don’t have anything big about Jeremy he’s cool, he’s whatever. GUERKINK: [Laughs] JOHNSON: Right FISK: Elijah has had the most trouble with, and has been the most vocal about my being gay. GUERKINK: Uh huh JOHNSON: Okay FISK: And he has condemned me, he has said he has felt uncomfortable with me around his children which I promptly said a big “eff you” and Page 12 �JOHNSON: Right FISK: You better not say that to me every again, like you… JOHNSON: Like you’re going to turn them gay or something? FISK: Right yeah, I don’t know what I’m like, what do you even mean JOHNSON: Sigh FISK: That doesn’t even make any sense. JOHNSON: No it doesn’t, there is nothing there FISK: And my dad was even like “what do you mean, what the hell are you talking about” GUERKINK: [Laughs] JOHNSON: Right FISK: Him and I don’t really speak, we haven’t for quite some years JOHNSON: Really? FISK: Even since he said that basically which was, man I don’t know, maybe 5 years ago JOHNSON: Really, so 5 years? FISK: We just say “hi” and “bye” GUERKINK: The only one in your family that’s like that FISK: Yeah nobody well, most of us can’t stand him too much, because he has a big mouth JOHNSON: Ah, I know the feeling FISK: He just says things without thinking JOHNSON: Yeah that one too FISK: He is very self righteous JOHNSON: Yeah I know the type FISK: Yeah, you can’t even do anything with him JOHNSON: You can’t crack the shell at all, not, there is nothing FISK: You can’t reason with him Page 13 �JOHNSON: No FISK: You can’t, they just like to get a rise out of you JOHNSON: yeah, it’s difficult I’m sure, because he is your brother. FISK: Right JOHNSON: Your closest sibling too so… FISK: Right, he always hated me growing up though JOHNSON: Yeah? FISK: He really despised me [Laughs] I really never knew why. JOHNSON: Because you’re the baby, that’s why, because you’re the youngest. FISK: Yeah JOHNSON: You got everything FISK: Well he did though JOHNSON: [Laughs] GUERKINK: [Laughs] FISK: That’s why I’m so confused, my mom seriously, he is the baby. JOHNSON: [Laughs] GUERKINK: [Laughs] FISK: My mom babied the shit out of him. JOHNSON: [Laughs] GUERKINK: [Laughs] FISK: Serious, my mom still does so… JOHNSON: Yeah FISK: He’s just odd, he pisses my sister off on a regular basis so… GUERKINK: Hmm, great FISK: Yeah Page 14 �GUERKINK: Was it just always like that though, all throughout your childhood, just back and forth back and forth FISK: He was always like beating up on me, and I was like a really small kid and we would kind of play together when we were younger, or whatever and then he started to just like not ever want to do anything with me and the most interaction we had when I was a teenager is he would like drive us to school, and he was always crashing cars JOHNSON: [Laughs] GUERKINK: [Laughs] FISK: We were in an accident together once, he’s had a lot of accidents. JOHNSON: Yeah FISK: Yeah we didn’t really interact, I tried to live with him, because it was closer to where I was working, him and his wife and their first child, and that lasted about 2 months. GUERKINK: Super successful there FISK: Yeah, yeah, that’s when he was still drinking, like he is not allowed to drink per his wife because he turns into even more of an asshole GUERKINK: If you can imagine FISK: So yeah, yeah he, he JOHNSON: A lot working there, a lot working there FISK: Yeah I remember one time he said, he was drinking and I don’t know we were playing games or something and he’s like “yeah, well I know how lesbians have sex, I figured it out”. I’m like “oh did you? You’re a creep shut up.” JOHNSON: Sighs, right GUERKINK: Sighs FISK: I’m like “why are you thinking about that” JOHNSON: Yeah. FISK: “Your sister is a lesbian that’s a little weird.” JOHNSON: Yeah, yeah GUERKINK: That’s a little messed up, kind of gross FISK: And don’t say that to me and don’t ask me questions Page 15 �JOHNSON: Yeah, yeah, right, right GUERKINK: So you guys, I forget how old, older is he from you? FISK: 3 years. GUERKINK: 3 years, so you guys didn’t really go to high school much with him, I’m assuming? FISK: No, actually he, we were both born in October, he started school when he was 4 and I started when I was 5, so I was in 8th grade when he was a senior. GUERKINK: Okay. FISK: So he graduated when he was like 17. GUERKINK: So in high school you were just all by yourself no siblings? FISK: I was, yeah well I dropped out the beginning for my junior year. GUERKINK: Ok FISK: I was very active in softball and basketball most of my life, I very much excelled at softball and probably could have gotten a… JOHNSON: Scholarship FISK: Like a full ride scholarship had I completed high school, our teams always went to like district regional’s and all that. GUERKINK: Sneezes ZAK/FISK: Bless you! FISK: So, but that still, that alone wasn’t enough incentive for me to stay especially after I came out. JOHNSON: Did you go back to get your… FISK: Yeah I went back and got my GED when I was like 19, (burps) excuse me, then started at [GR] CC for several years, then I came to Grand Valley and finished up. END OF INTERVIEW Page 16 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/bc6b402cfe8fffdb9cc146da00bd4013.mp3 7d39dfa444bb5e664e7282a445b76403 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Fisk_Anna Title A name given to the resource Anna Fisk audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Fisk, Anna Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Johnson, Zak Guerkink, Andrew Braseth, Peter Description An account of the resource Anna Fisk was born and raised in Grand Rapids, Michigan. She is an advocate and activist. She discusses growing up being lesbian in a Christian household. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Lesbians--Personal narratives Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-02-26 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/17ba9771c488c59052c4b8d55b17808b.mp4 9906731bc2ad979031e222045aca2cca https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/df32bad8be88a3d09c2ad9131798ecc3.pdf 376bf31760a142c7d2f7242948fc17df PDF Text Text ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW DEREK FLACK Born: Detroit, Michigan Resides: Byron Center, Michigan Interviewed by: James Smither PhD, GVSU Veterans History Project, Transcribed by: Joan Raymer, February 7, 2013 Interviewer: Mr. Flack, can you begin by telling us a little bit about your own personal background? For instance, where and when were you born? I was born in Detroit, Michigan July 5, 1948. Interviewer: Did you grow up there? I grew up, born and bred there my whole life. Interviewer: What did your family do, your father do? My dad worked for Ford Motor Company and he was an automotive engineer and we had the typical lower middle class and it was great. Growing up in—I had a brother and two sisters at the time and I had a late sister later on, but yeah, we had a great life. Interviewer: Did you live in the city? I lived in Detroit, right. Interviewer: Did you go to the public schools? Public schools for most of the time and then my dad sent my sister Gwen and myself, being the two oldest, to a parochial school for the last two years. 1:05 Then back to a public school later on when we moved from Detroit to Dearborn and that‘s where I graduated from in 1966. Interviewer: Okay, what did you do upon graduation? 1 �Actually, prior to graduation my family life, at least from an eighteen year olds point of view, kind of was going downhill, you know. So, what I did, and Vietnam was roaring, and I was gung ho about the Marine Corps, so I went down to the recruiter and signed the papers when I was seventeen. Of course I went home and told my parents and my mother was absolutely shocked. My dad, he was stunned, he‘d been in WWII see, so he kind of understood a little bit about it you know, although he didn‘t like Vietnam. 2:03 My mom didn‘t like Vietnam, and little did I know that later on no one would like Vietnam, but that‘s neither here nor there at that time, so they wouldn‘t sign for me to go in early even though I graduated in June and I was turning eighteen in July. They said, ―No, you have to wait until you‘re eighteen and you can do it. So two days after my eighteenth birthday, on the 7th of July, I went to downtown Detroit and they swore me in, and I said, ―I do‖, and I did, and they whisked me off to San Diego, California for training. Interviewer: Was that Camp Pendleton? San Diego, there is a Marine corps recruit depot in San Diego, only two in the country, San Diego, California and Parris Island, South Carolina. Interviewer: Is that where you had your basic training then? Basic training, right Interviewer: Describe basic training in 1968? Well, 1966, yeah 1966, well we flew to L.A. and caught another flight down to San Diego. 3:09 We get out of the plane and into the terminal and the drill instructors, or DI‘s, are there waiting for us, and of course they‘re out in the public, so they usher out into these school busses with no seats, so you‘re standing. The base is right next to the airport, so then they get on the bus and they are screaming at you. From that point on 2 �they are screaming at you and they‘re calling you every name you ever thought of and then some. Interviewer: Did you know they were going to do that when you went in? No, no, I didn‘t think it was going to be easy, but I didn‘t think it would start off like that. So it‘s the shock value that they‘re going for and they shock you right away. Some people in our group, who would become part of our platoon, had fathers who had been in the Marine Corps, so they knew what to expect. 4:04 My dad was in the Army Air Corps in WWII, so there was nothing like that. Anyway, I stood there and I‘m grabbing onto one of the poles as they‘re taking off and thinking, ―What did I get myself into? So, they go around to the front of the base, they come in and they‘re screaming at you all the way, you stop and they actually push you off the bus, they‘re pushing you know. There‘s these two big sets of yellow foot prints and they yell, ―Get in the footprints‖, and they‘re like you‘re standing at attention the way they‘re painted on the asphalt, and we‘re all in one section, there was only enough of us for one, and they‘re yelling at us and this is by the barber shop. 5:01 They have a group of six guys run in there, they‘re yelling at you the whole time, running up the steps, into the chairs, the barber‘s there, zipp, zipp, zipp zipp, and you‘re out. I mean you went in there with whatever hair you had and you came out with absolutely nothing and I remember it was just, ―Wow‖. Finally after everyone gets shorn of their hair, then they sort of march you, because you‘re not—you don‘t know diddly squat about marching at this point, over to one of the receiving barracks‘ where you pick up your gear. You‘re going through and they‘re throwing it into a box or sea bag, you get a sea bag, and just dump it in there, just keep dumping, dumping, and finally they run you over to the showers. 6:04 Everybody gets a shower and then you put on 3 �your—we had yellow sweat shirts, which said U.S. M. C., had the emblem and the whole thing and we had a cover we put on, we had on our utility pants, tennis shoes and socks and that was it. Then they march us across the base, about two O‘clock in the morning, yelling and screaming at us, and it‘s like a herd moving down the street. These Quonset Huts that they had at the time and they put so many in a Quonset Hut, and what happens, you have these metal racks with mattresses on them and then you have something you put over them called a ―fart sack‖, that‘s what they called it, so those of us that at least figured that out, we‘re trying to get that over the mattress and the DI‘s would yell, ―Stop, you‘re not going to do that right now, you‘re going to go to sleep and that‘s it‖. 7:00 So, we stopped, we stopped right where we were and then he said, ―You will now lay down‖, and we were laying there at attention, you know and then he turns off the lights and says, ―You are now asleep‖, and slams the door. I remember this quite distinctly. Interviewer: Then how early did they wake you up the next morning? This was the morning. How many hours later? Interviewer: Yes I would say maybe about three, three hours later and everybody‘s in their clothes still, some of us were smart enough to say, ―We‘re going to stay in our clothes‖. So, we jumped up and then what happens is we fall out in some sort of formation and they‘re trying to get us by height or whatever they do, you know—oh geez, and as time went on at boot camp we got better and better and better at doing these things. You got all squared away and you‘re marching and you can do your manual of arms and all kinds of good stuff you know. 8:01 I mean, and you‘re going through your basics, which could 4 �be an obstacle course or you‘re going to classroom on the history of the Marine Corps, or first aid, or all kinds of good stuff. Actually that lasted—we were there for nine weeks. Interviewer: As you were there, did you adjust to that reasonably well? I mean did you learn the routine and mostly stay out of trouble, or how did you do? Ha, ha, if you didn‘t you were crazy, you really were. I adjusted pretty darn well to it. I accepted that, ―Hey, I‘m stuck for four years‖, and I wasn‘t drafted, see they had few draftees in the Marine Corps at that time. Most of them were enlistees and so anyway, we just—you adjusted and you learned. You learned to stay out of a lot of sight, you know, you just—you‘re the mouse in the corner, you know. 9:00 You‘re going to get along because we saw a guy who didn‘t—we had some guys who were injured, naturally. One guy broke his leg and he had to go back through the system again after his leg was healed up and so on, but there were some guys—back then what they use to do is, these recruiter needed numbers back home to fill their quotas, and there were guys in there who should never have been in there, who you could tell should never have been allowed to enlist, they would never make it. Interviewer: Just physically not strong enough or mentally they were not right? Everything, everything, and the recruiters didn‘t care because it‘s numbers for them. That became a real big deal after Vietnam. Anyway, what happened is that they would weed out those individuals right then and there and they would be sent home because they‘re unacceptable, or unfit for military service. 10:00 We were down to about, our platoon, to about seventy five, seventy four, seventy three guys eventually. Interviewer: Out of how many? 5 �Out of close to eighty, and I‘d come out of high school and I thought I was in pretty good shape, but no—I got in shape though and it was quite an experience, boot camp because they‘re screaming at you all the time and as time goes on, during the nine weeks, they‘re screaming less, and less, and less, until finally at the very end you‘re almost buddy, buddy with them. I mean they‘re nice to you because you do what you have to be doing. A good example was, during the end of our time at boot camp we got to marching in cadence real easy. We‘d be marching down one of the streets and we could see one of the new recruit platoons coming towards us with the tee shirts on. 11:07 By that time you‘ve shed all that new stuff and you‘re in your regular uniforms. Anyway, we could see them coming and the DI that was with us, we had three for our platoon, didn‘t have to say a word, not a word, we all saw what was coming and we began hitting the pavement with our heels, bang, bang, bang, and we were loud, we were all in cadence and it was beautiful. We‘re going by these guys, and it screwed them all up, you know, and the DI that was with us, he was chuckling and the DI from the other platoon, he was really—he said, ―What‘s the matter with you girls? What are you doing? You can‘t let them screw you up like this‖. He knew what was going on and after we passed by we went down to a normal march and you didn‘t have to tell anybody anything because it happened to us. 12:05 You do that, you know, and it‘s sort of a, I guess, a rite of passage when you can all do that without anybody telling you when you‘re doing it in unison correctly and rookies are just going by and their all screwed up, I mean we could hear them fumbling around. It reminded us of what we‘d been not too many weeks earlier. 6 �Interviewer: Now, while you were there at boot camp, were they figuring out what kind of specializations you’d go into and what kind of advanced training you would get? Yes, and what would happen was, you went through a battery of tests to determine—first of all when you enlisted you had a contract, not that any of us knew what contracts were about, some of them like me, I‘d asked to go into intelligence and I didn‘t make that. I probably wasn‘t smart enough, I don‘t know. 13:00 Anyway, we had twelve batteries of tests and in those test they began seeing what you‘re good at, you know. If you had a guaranteed contract, which some people did, then those batteries of test would be geared toward whatever that guarantee was, and there were very few guarantees. So, what would happen was that we would go through and take the test ad after a while there would be a break, we‘d go outside and if you smoked you could smoke and you still couldn‘t do too much because you‘re still in boot camp. Then you go back inside and do some more tests and then they would say, ―Okay‖, and call out names, and my name was one of them that was going to stay for another battery of tests. I thought, ―Whoa, what in the world‘s going on?‖ Well, little did I know that they thought I‘d be a good communicator, so I took the test and at the end of boot camp I got my assignment. 14:06 Of course we all went up to Pendleton for ITR, everyone does that, and if you‘re a grunt you had four weeks of ITR, if you weren‘t a grunt, you got two weeks of ITR. Interviewer: What does ITR stand for? Infantry Training Regiment, everybody gets that and then the grunts get more because they‘re going to be infantry and eventually down the road beyond that, whereas someone like me, they gave me the first two weeks only to familiarize me with a lot of stuff that 7 �turned out to be pretty useless, but nevertheless. I found out at boot camp that I was going back to San Diego for training because I was going to be in communications. Do you remember the old Gomer Pyle series? Remember the arcade and the whole thing? That‘s where what used to be what‘s called Communications Electronics Battalion, used to be and now it‘s moved out of there up north. 15:00 Anyway, that‘s where it was, right along that old arcade were all barracks back there and that‘s where I was sent, back there for communications school, and I was going to be what was called a Radio Telegraph Operator. You‘d go through the school and you‘d learn the radios, you learned Morse Code, you learned to get quicker, and quicker, and quicker at sending and receiving and that became useless because we never used it again, everything was voice. Interviewer: Were they using telephones and things like that? No, it was radios, radios that you carry on your back. There‘s no more Morse Code, although we had a couple gung ho NCO‘s later on and in another outfit who wanted to set up a communications net to practice in when we‘re in Vietnam. The guy had a death wish I swear he did, because in a combat zone you don‘t screw with people like that, you don‘t hassle them. 16:00 When they‘re there, they‘re there for combat and you let them be while they‘re back at base camp and then they go out again, you know. Anyway that‘s an old, old story. Interviewer: Describe a little bit, please, the certain equipment you’re trained on and particularly the stuff you wind up using. We learned all the radios. Some were huge radios, some were mounted on vehicles, and some were mounted permanently in installations. Actually it was the same radio, it just had a different designation where it was mounted, believe it or not, I swear to God. 8 �Anyway, we learned all that stuff and we learned how to use it, we learned, oh geez, of course, the Morse Code, like I said and spent eighteen weeks doing that, which was a waste of eighteen weeks as far as the Morse code went, and I never used it again. 17:01 I never ever, ever, used it again Interviewer: Did you learn anything about the maintenance of the equipment, repair of it or anything? Well, no repairs, you learn—of course when you have the equipment you keep it clean naturally, but you just use it and if it needs repair you send it over to a tech who--that‘s his job, so you don‘t worry about that. I never had to worry about that kind of stuff. Interviewer: Now, while you were training to use this equipment and this kind of thing and learning the Morse Code, were they still keeping up with the conditioning exercises and marches and stuff like that? No—well, yes and no—what would happen, after a while you would—once in a while you would get someone who would say, ―Well, we need to get your people out there and run around the base‖, and we would do that once in a while. Not as often as we should have and you have to understand something—back then it was different than it is now. Now, they stress a lot of that stuff and that‘s good. 18:00 Back then they didn‘t and we played pickup sports among our groups and that was great, but we didn‘t do a lot of organized calisthenics like we had back at ITR or boot camp. I now look back at it and I wish I had because it would have helped with the next unit that I went to after that, but I got back into it right away with the next unit, so that wasn‘t any problem. Interviewer: Now, this period where you’re training for this radio work in San Diego, were you getting time to get off base and do things and so forth? 9 �Yes Interviewer: What kind of stuff did you do when you weren’t on duty? Well, San Diego at that time wasn‘t nearly as big as it is right now, and we use to walk down Rosecrans Boulevard, I remember that name, I‘ll never forget that, it goes right down town. They use to have things downtown, they had a naval base right next to us where they had the naval recruits. 19:05 We got to get off base in civilian clothes and they had to wear uniforms and you could see the navy guys, these little white Dixie cups bobbing in the crowd and know that‘s the navy. We use to go down there and there were all kinds of stuff. They had this town square in the middle and I don‘t know if it‘s still there or not, and on Sunday mornings they had a preacher on every corner, I remember that and it was kind of cool, you know. And then there were things like the San Diego Zoo, and that was a great place to go, especially for picking up girls, and they had the bars down there. Because there were two classes every day in communications school, and this is the part that didn‘t hit me until later on, why they would have two classes a day for communications while the Marine Corps was no nearly as huge as the army, why would they need that many communicators? 20:07 Well, I was to find out later on – anyway usually what we‘d do is we‘d hop a bus down to Tijuana, Mexico. Now, Tijuana, Mexico back in 1966 was one jumping place. There were all kinds of things you ever imagine down there, I mean all kinds. We‘d get out of school about ten or ten thirty at night and we‘d be on liberty until seven o‘clock the next morning and we had guys rolling in there drunk as a skunk, you know. Then we‘d get in there and we‘d have to clean up the barracks and do that in a stupor, you know, clean the barracks up somehow and then we got free time, so next to the barracks, usually, was a little grassy lot and the 10 �guys would sack out there for I don‘t know how many hours sleeping it off. 21:02 This is the honest to God truth. Then we‘d have to get ready and head for formation for school and we‘d stand for formation down farther in the arcade in the back part there was another area. We‘d stand there for whatever things they wanted to tell us and then we‘d go into the classrooms and we‘d put on the headphones and we‘d start the Morse code thing and do that for hours on end. Interviewer: After a week's time you’d need to go back to Tijuana. That‘s right, exactly; it‘s time to go to Tijuana. Interviewer: Where did they send you after San Diego? I went back to Pendleton and there had been a unit authorized to be called the 5th Marine Division, which had not been organized since WWII. The 5th Marine division was made up of a number of units and one of those units is the 28th Marine Regiment, so I was assigned to them, to the 3rd Battalion 28th Marines at that time. 22:01 We got up there—I got up there with a bunch of the guys who were with me, we went to school together and we‘re in the same—we‘re all spread throughout the 28th, but those of us in the 3rd Battalion, you know, we stuck together and there was no one there. There was no one up there, maybe two or three guys in 3rd Battalion and that was it, it was us and them. I mean we had free run of everything, we could do what we wanted to do. It was great because there was no one there, the unit was just forming, and as time went on more and more people came into the unit and formed the units and so on, and then we got into a regular routine, which sort of sucked because we liked being free, you know. Then after a while the 28th Marines became a regular outfit and we all wondered when we were going to Vietnam because one regiment, the 26th Regiment had already made it to 11 �Vietnam along with attached units. 23:00 They were over there and the 27th Marines, which is the 3rd Regiment in the division was at Pendleton also. So, we just figured, ―When are we going to go?‖ We hear what‘s going on in Vietnam, we watch all this stuff and we‘re thinking ―Geez‖, and then, of course, the Pueblo thing happened the end of 1967 the beginning of 1968, and we thought, ―Oh my God, we‘re going to Korea‖, and we didn‘t want to go to Korea, it‘s cold there and I said, ―I‘m going to Vietnam, it‘s warmer‖, and I kid you not that‘s what I said. ―I don‘t want to go to Korea‖, I said, ―I‘ve read the stories of the guys in Korea. I want to go to Vietnam, if I have a choice, Vietnam, it‘s warmer‖, and now that didn‘t happen, as you know. It sort of was resolved or whatever, and that whole year of 1967 we were training, you know, and doing really useless stuff, I swear. 24:00 You would think, going through the training that we went through, that you were going to fight Europe in WWII, that‘s the kind of training we got. I‘m thinking, ―I know Vietnam‘s not like this even though I haven‘t been there. I‘ve talked to enough guys who have come back, it‘s not like that, and I don‘t understand all this stuff, you know‖. Interviewer: Were there officers or noncoms assigned to your unit as they were building it who’d been in Vietnam already? Yeah, some had and some weren‘t, some who were in a long time had been In Korea. At boot camp I even had a guy who, a gun and gunnery sergeant who was on Guadalcanal, but that was boot camp and that‘s different. But, in the regular outfit some people just hadn‘t been in contact with that, but they‘re just doing what they‘re ordered to do and that‘s the whole thing. But, I thought to myself, ―This sounds more like the reading I‘ve read about WWII and what they did there, and how it was. People I‘ve talked to who 12 �were in WWII—this isn‘t even like the Pacific in WWII. 25:02 I‘m thinking, ―Something‘s wrong here‖, and I didn‘t understand what was going on. So, comes the end of the year, Pueblo, and then into 1968, and Vietnam is heating up, and we‘re thinking, ―Okay, another year‖, and then it rolls around, around Valentine‘s Day, this time of the year 1968. I had duty that night. I was corporal of the guard and the officer of the day, he and I used to—the duty was to patrol at night during the week-ends, just the barracks, walk them, come back and write your log in ―All okay‘, or whatever, you know. No big deal. Anyway, we were sitting there, we had just gotten back off a practice operation on ship, and those were fun 26:08 Interviewer: Were those practice landing operations? Yeah, we use to come on shore on these landing craft you see in WWII where the ramps drop, and I‘m thinking, ―If this happens in Vietnam, we‘re all going to get killed, because where are you going to go?‖ Or the other where you‘re going to be on an Amtrack, and on the Amtrack you would go from the troop ship over to an LSD and you would go on board this LSD and the Amtrack‘s below and the big door in the back would open up and they would roll out and they would go through the water about that high above the water with maybe ten of you in this Amtrack and they roll up on the beach. These Amtrack‘s, unlike the WWII Amtracks, unlike the WWII Amtracks, or the ones they have now, dropped in the front. So, I‘m thinking, ―If this happens we‘re going to get killed, where you are going to go? You can‘t hide anyplace, and at least if it drops in the back, you got a place to hide‖. 27:02 I‘m thinking, ―Oh god‖, and we all those kinds of things. We would climb up those nets and that was a joy, let me tell you, climbing up and down those nets, especially when you have a whole lot of gear on. 13 �Interviewer: That’s what you’re using to get into the landing craft or whatever you’re using? In and out, yeah, and one time they had me loaded down with over a hundred pounds of gear on this backboard, plus my personal gear and everything, you know. We were motored out to the ship, the nets were down, and you grad onto the vertical ropes and you climb up and it‘s tough. You got your helmet on , buckled, because you can‘t lose it, you‘ve got this heavy M14, which was a great rifle, I‘ll tell ya, a great rifle, slung across you, I had this backboard on me and I had a huge radio on top of that and below that I had my own gear, so I‘m loaded down. 28:00 So, you get up to the top, the railing, and you‘re tired, and what you do is you just reach over the top, you swing a leg over and you just roll and you hit the deck. That‘s what you do, you hit the deck, you lay there and you get up on your knees and then you stand up and you‘re leaning forward because you have so much weight on your back. Interviewer: So, you’ve done one of those exercises and you’re back at camp with the offer of the day and what takes place? So, what happens, all of a sudden sirens go off and I‘m thinking, ―What in the world is going on?‖ Lights are going on, I run back to the company office and the OD‘s there and I said, ―Sir, what is happening?‖ He said, ―We‘re having a recall, everybody who‘s off base is being recalled.‖ He said, ―Those people who are away on leave, even as far away from California as you can get, are being recalled‖. 29:00 California‘s west coast and people are from all over the country and if they‘re on the east coast they‘ve got to get back now. I thought, ―Whoa‖, and he said, ―Also we‘re having what‘s called a ―mout out‖ where you get all your gear ready and you go‖, and I thought, ―Oh, come on now‖, 14 �and I said, ―Are we going to Vietnam?‖ He said, ―I have no idea where we‘re going‖. This is just after Pueblo and North Korea and I‘m thinking, ―Oh geese, I hope it‘s warm‖. Here I‘m from Michigan and I‘ve been in Michigan my whole life and I want a warm climate and I should move to a warm climate anyway. Anyway, everybody came in, even some of the people you never see after—see at 16:30, which is 4:30 in the afternoon, is when liberty starts and when you see some of the lifer NCO‘s coming back in, you know that something is up because they don‘t come in for nothing. 30:01 So, here they‘re coming in and the regular office staff comes in, so I‘m relieved of my corporal of the guard duty and the whole thing, and I hook back up with my communications platoon and our comm chief, he was a pretty good guy, said, ―Okay, everybody down to the comm shack‖, and he said, ―You, you, and you dial the motor pool and get the comm sheets ready‖, so we ran down to the comm shack and we had these mount out pallets, which were huge stacks of individual boxes, which were banded together and you throw your stuff in there and nail the top on it and then the next one, the next one, and the next one. He said, ―Okay, what I want you to do is I want you to start busting apart the pallets‖, so we bust apart the pallets and we took each individual box and we had our radios up on shelves on the wall s all the radios, and he said, ―Start putting the radios in boxes and get everything ready to go‖. 31:03 We worked there, we were doing this all the way until four o‘clock, five o‘clock in the morning, we didn‘t stop, you know. Of course when you‘re nineteen you can do anything, I swear, and I wish I was nineteen again, God. Anyway, we got all this stuff ready and we brought it outside to a truck and they shipped it away and we‘re standing there with nothing to do. We said, ―We‘re done‖, and this communications chief we had was a first sergeant, he had been to 15 �Vietnam, so he said, ―Get over to the mess hall and get some chow‖. He said, ―They‘re keeping it open all day long for all of you people‖, so I said, ―Okay‖, so we went over and got some chow and went back to the barracks with nothing to do, so we started playing cards, which was a way we killed time. 32:04 We played Pinochle, Casino, we played Poker, we played everything, so we‘re just sitting in there all day long doing nothing and wondering, ―What in the world is going on?‖ Finally someone comes in and says, ―Okay, go down to the‖---across from us was another building, which was supply, and he said, ―Okay, go down to supply and draw a seabag‖, and I thought, ―Well, I got a seabag‖, and he said, ―Well draw another seabag‖, so we went down and we each drew another seabag. These were those heavy canvas things they used to have, they were heavy and then you fill them up and they‘re even heavier. Anyway, we came back and he said, ―I want you to start putting things in that seabag you want to send home‖, and they had these big boxes you could then put the seabag in the box, address it, and it would be sent out, and we kept the original seabag. 33:00 We thought, ―Oh boy, something‘s happening‖, so we all got that done, we‘re out in formation , it was at night, evening I should say, and we‘re standing around and our CO says, ―Okay, in the morning you‘ll be transferred to the 27th Marines, which is our sister regiment, still in the states. We said, ―Okay‖, so we went back in squared up the rest of our stuff, cleaned up the barracks and that was it. You couldn‘t get off base, nothing. I called my parents at that point and said, ―I think we‘re going to Vietnam‖, so I gave them all kinds of—I said, ―I got $10,000 insurance‖, that‘s all that I had at the time, and I said, ―if something happens to me, split it up among Marty, Gwen and Gloria‖. Christine wasn‘t there at that time. 34:02 Anyway, I said, ―Okay, I think we‘re going ―, and the next morning trucks 16 �arrived in the back of the barracks. We had a big huge parking area back there and we all jumped on trucks and downed us, Camp Margarita at Camp Pendleton where the 27th Marines was. We got down there and it was chaos, absolute chaos. Here we had our stateside utilities on, we had to wear our flak jackets and our helmets, our M14s, everything. Where were we going to go? And our packs, we‘re ready to go. We get down there and we‘re assigned to units and I was assigned to the 2nd Battalion of the 27th Marines, and they said, ―Well, draw boots, jungle boots‖, and that told me Vietnam, no Korea, Vietnam, because if we were going to Korea we‘d be keeping our leather boots, so that was cool, I‘d rather go there. 35:02 Anyway, I drew boots, they didn‘t have my size, I drew a size too small because that‘s all they had and I eventually gave those away. I went back to the old leathers and then we got all the 27th Marines gear on trucks and went up to El Toro Airbase and maybe you saw that in the movie ―Independence Day‖ when they had that fighter squadron, that‘s the base that we flew out of. We got up there and we‘re sitting over by one of the hangers on the tarmac and we‘re just sitting there with our gear with nothing to do, not even a PX nearby. So, I found a phone and made one last phone call to my parents and told them, ―I think we‘re going‖. Sure enough, it was later on that day, one of those big C-141‘s came in and our gears on a big metal pallet all strapped down and we file in. 36:00 We got on our flak jackets, our helmets, our M14‘s and we‘re sitting on this plane all in rows, gears in the back, and they take off for Hawaii. We landed at Hickam for an hour for refueling and that was the first time I had been to Hawaii. Then they took off and flew to Wake. Have you ever been to Wake? Interviewer: No 17 �Nothing there, I mean nothing there, we landed and it was hot, I mean this place is hot in February, I mean it was like in the summer. Anyway, you land and all you see is water around you, there‘s nothing there. There‘s a lot of FAA personnel that man the island now, or back then, but still, you look around, water, they‘re only about that far above sea level. So, we go into the terminal, the air conditioning, where we can just stretch our legs and we walked around and found a couple of old WWII emplacements that were still there, we refueled and off we go again. 37:04 Headed for the Philippines, and we landed at Clark, which doesn‘t exist anymore because Mount Pinatubo destroyed that. Landed at Clark, a big base, and we file off the plane with flak jackets, helmet, M14‘s, and we start walking around the base. Air Force is really nervous; here you‘ve got all these planes landing with all these marines with rifles. They weren‘t loaded, didn‘t have any ammunition, but they were nervous, I kid you not. They hadn‘t seen anything like this, maybe ever, and finally they told us in the terminal, stack arms and we could have our run of the base, which was neat. Air Force lives like kings let me tell you, they really do. 38:00 So, we went over to a group of barracks, each barracks has their own little EM club, we walked in there and we began pounding down San Miguel beer, ten cents a bottle. San Miguel is one of those beers that goes right through you, I mean there‘s no stopping along the way, it goes in and goes through, and we pounded down a bunch of those and when we got back to the terminal, we were there about five hours, and we took off for Vietnam. We landed in Vietnam and we stayed the first night in Da Nang, and from there our unit went out to a LZ right below Da Nang and the LZ was a one battalion LZ. Well, there was already one battalion there, so our battalion kind of crowded—it got kind of crowded you know. 18 �Interviewer: What is a LZ, a landing zone? A landing zone, yeah, and we got down there and of course, all these guys are from the 3rd Battalion, 5th Marines who had been there a while. 39:00 We‘re all new guys and they got jungle utilities, jungle boots, jungle this and jungle that, and M16s you know, and here we are walking around in stateside utilities and a lot of us had on the leather boots because they didn‘t have the jungle boots and all that kind of stuff, so you stood out. So, we had to pitch pup tents because there wasn‘t enough for two battalions on the base, so we pitched pup tents and we stayed like that for maybe a week or so and then the 3rd Battalion, 5th Marines left. They just had an assignment and they were gone, and it was all ours, and we were there alone. We had gone out on patrols with them. We used to walk down the roads on patrols and you have one side, guys from 3/5, that‘s what Robby called them, 3/5, and guys over here from 2/27. 40:02 You could tell the difference, it was a sharp difference, but we were learning as we were going. This was a smart move on their part, learn, learn, OJT. I cannot stress to anyone who—about any war that they‘re viewing, whether it‘s the two wars going on now or any war in the past or any war in the future, OJT, if you can survive OJT you got it. Interviewer: Now, was this area one where there was a lot of enemy activity? This was during Tet, we landed during Tet. That‘s why we went over there, because apparently it was so bad that they needed extra troops quick and we were part of the extra troops for Tet, we landed during Tet. Yeah, we use to get hit and so on and we learned, you learn and if you don‘t you die. Interviewer: Were you dealing with snipers and mortars and things like that? Everything 19 �Interviewer: Did you have larger units? No, smaller units, snipers, mortars, rockets they were actually in large units, thank God, at that point. 41:10 Later on we would with another outfit, but still—yeah, we‘re learning. The idea is to learn because number one, no matter what anybody tells you, your number one job in combat, I don‘t care what anybody tells you, is to stay alive. If you don‘t stay alive you can‘t do anything else, number one job. Interviewer: What kind of tricks or techniques were you able to learn that was going to help you stay alive while doing these patrols? Don‘t touch anything, don‘t touch, that‘s what got me eventually, somebody touched something and I paid the consequence. But, don‘t touch anything--we had people— unless you know what you‘re doing don‘t touch, because everything is booby trapped and you just don‘t touch it. When you‘re on patrols always spread out when you‘re going on these patrols. 42:07 You got about twenty yards between individuals contrary to what you see on TV. You have a large space in there, let me tell you, because the larger the space the fewer guys are going to get hit or killed. Interviewer: When you were doing this were you going single file spacing that way or were you spread out? No, single file down—like road sweeps, and you walk down the road and you‘re looking all around you, you‘re looking this way, that way, every which way, yeah. You have people—of course I was in infantry, I was—they made me infantry for a short time like that believe it or not. I was a radio operator, but they made me infantry for a very short time and this is what the infantry did, and you have an assignment, or a mission to go out to a certain point and you don‘t talk, you don‘t smoke, don‘t talk unless you have to 20 �because your noise carries. 43:08 You‘re making noise anyway, a group of guys and yeah, you‘re just going down the road and you‘re looking around and it‘s boring, believe it or not, war is boring for the most part. One thing you notice is the guy in front of you, in his back pocket, usually has a little paperback book and what he‘ll do when he gets time to sit down and rest, and he might not have to be out on perimeter, he‘ll sit down and read a few pages of the book, and that‘s the way it was. Interviewer: As you were going on these patrols, I mean was there every anything actually to see or did shots come at you while walking? Yeah, once in a while you get a sniper shooting at you, which is you know, hopefully you‘re not going to get hit. Sometimes there‘s a unit out, there‘s the enemy and they have a mortar and they drop mortars in on you. 44:03 Mortars you can hear coming and the closer they‘re going to hit the less you hear, but still you get a little chance and you hit the ground and you flatten out right away, it‘s just what you do. From there you do what you‘re going to do, you know. That was with the 2/27, I was with them for—after that little infantry stint I got in communications finally, and I was doing communications with them, and actually what happened was that what I had done in the states for the 28th Marines, I did with the 27th Marines, and later on with the other outfits. I was part of what‘s called the tactical air control party, TAC party, and that‘s where you go out in the field and you‘re the guy who‘s responsible—you‘re the communicator and the officer who‘s supposed to be with you, key word is supposed to, is the person who calls in the air strikes and resupplies medevac‘s. 45:07 Anyway, you carried the radio for the guy, well I got news for you, we had very few officers and very few pilots, and it usually 21 �wound up that it was just me and that was it. I was with this outfit and I had the job of all this stuff by myself, no one else, just me and that‘s what happened after a while. Interviewer: So if you got into a situation where you needed air support what did you do? I would talk to the officer in charge out there. I‘d say, ―Skipper, what do you need? Can I help you?‖ He says, ―What do you have on station?‖ You have nothing on station and I said, ―I got nothing on station right now, but I can make a call and see what we can get out here‖. 46:00 He has the forward observer for the artillery and he can call in a fire mission, maybe, so it depends, it just depends if I can get somebody out there to help us out if we need that help. What I would do—you see it in the documentaries, the guy standing up with the radio on his back out in the middle of—―Shoot at me‖, that was me. I‘d do that and bullets flying around me all time and I never got hit with a bullet, never got hit, whizzing over my head, dropping next to me, you never know, and I‘m calling in the air strikes, or whatever, and it‘s scary business. That was when I began to realize why they had so many communications schools going through there. It was a job where you didn‘t last too long usually, and you keep replacing communicators. Yeah, that was with the 27th Marines and from there I left for the 7th Marines. 47:07 As I understand later on, the 27th Marines was only going to stay there until the fall of 1968, and then all the short timers were going to go into the 27th Marines and all the 27th Marines were going back to the states as a unit. Interviewer: You were a four year man, so they were going to assign you to something that was going to stay out there longer? 22 �Well, I was surprised they didn‘t grab me earlier. Anyway, I went to the 7th Marines and I wound up at the 7th Marines regimental headquarters, cushy job, I should have stayed there, but guess what? I‘m not real bright see, and I was there for a while, communications, and I did what I had to do. Interviewer: Were you manning one of the big radios? We had the small radios in the command bunker and whatever I was doing I was using the small—the big radios didn‘t really—they were in Da Nang out in battalion [division?] level, but in regimental level you didn‘t have hardly any of that stuff. 48:09 Anyway, we‘re sitting there and we got the small radios, which are adequate, and are called PRC25‘s, small radios, carrying them on your back if you want. Anyway, I was there with the 7th Marines for a while, and like I said, I wasn‘t real bright, and I kept saying, ―I want to get out of this place, I want to get out of this place, nothing‘s happening here‖. Little did I know, so anyway, finally my company commander—see, when you‘re in communication you‘re always part of headquarters support in the communications platoon, and your NCO, the comm chief, they finally got sick of me and they transferred me down to the 3rd Battalion 7th Marines, my last outfit. 49:01 I get down there and I‘ll tell ya, I didn‘t know I stepped in it. Boy, I get down there and I was busy. Interviewer: Where were they stationed? Okay now, the LZ for 2/27 was right below Da Nang and the 7th Marines was over on Hill 55, which is a little bit west. Interviewer: is that Central Highlands country? No, we were up at I Corps. Interviewer: So, up in the northern part. 23 �Yeah, up at I Corps, and then a little southwest of Hill 55 was Hill 37 where the 3rd battalion was and that‘s where I went to eventually. That was about, geez I‘m trying to think, June 1, 1968, that I got to the 3rd Battalion 7th Marines. I get down there and I didn‘t get a greeting like I got at the 7th Marine headquarters. My first night there they rocketed us, oh my god, the first time I had these huge rockets coming at me, unbelievable. 50:04 I mean we were crawling in the dirt trying to get away from where they were hitting, you know. But anyway, I get down to the 3rd battalion and I check in and there aren‘t many of us. Now, here you got four companies, four grunt companies, four infantry companies in a battalion, and normally the way it‘s set up, when I learned it in the states was a TAC party unit going out was an officer and two communicators. As I learned with the 2/27, we didn‘t have enough people, and at regimental, regimental didn‘t have to worry about that, Now, 3rd Battalion 7th Marines we didn‘t have enough people, we had even less than 2/27 had, so what happens is that, I got to get back in to calling in stuff like I used to , so I went out with another guy a couple times just to check me out and to be sure that I knew what I was doing, and I did. 51:06 After that it was just a grunt company and me. I‘d be assigned something and I‘d be going out and maybe it would be Lima company, L Company, I‘d go out with them for a while, however long it was and do what I do, airstrikes, resupplies, medevac‘s, the whole thing, and come back in, just come back in just in time to do what we called the three s‘s, shit, shower and shave, maybe catch some chow, and go back out again. The next company, maybe it‘s M company, Mike, and you‘re back out again with them doing something. Interviewer: So, do you think you were out in the field more than the regular infantry guys? 24 �Yeah, the grunts Interviewer: They got longer breaks between, but there weren’t enough of you guys. Yeah, they get longer breaks and we just had to keep doing it, and doing it, and doing it, so the odds keep going down on me. 52:00 Interviewer: What kind of fighting was going on here? Were you engaging sort of North Vietnamese forces as far as you can tell? Usually Vietcong— well, Vietcong during Tet had been pretty much wiped out and NVA, North Vietnamese forces, were moving in, and yeah, we would engage them. You hardly ever find any bodies, they were good at picking up their bodies and going, they really were, and yeah, there was a lot of that. Interviewer: Were these mostly small scale fire fights? Small scales, yeah, yeah, we did—the one—a couple of times we‘d assault the tree lines, there was a large unit in there and we don‘t know how many we killed. All I know is that we found three bodies and when we reported to Stars and Stripes, they came out and said we‘d killed three hundred—propaganda, I swear, god it was horrible, we‘d read the Stars and Stripes and just laugh. 53:02 When they talk about something you were involved in and you knew it was different, we‘d say, ―Geez‖. Interviewer: So, if you’re doing a fight like that you assume they had an actual target to attack? Oh yeah Interviewer: They bring in artillery, airpower, and then send you guys in? 25 �Oh yeah, in fact when we hit the tree line, we hit it with artillery for two days straight, we hit it with airstrikes two days straight and we went in behind flame tanks after that, oh yeah. Interviewer: There couldn’t be anybody left after that. You‘d be surprised, you‘d be surprised, those suckers were tough and they were well dug in and they were tough, oh yeah. We go to the tree line and we go behind the tanks with the flames and we do what‘s called recon by fire. You put your M-16 on automatic and you‘re spraying, and it‘s called recon by fire, and we‘d do that. Unbelievable, and we went to the tree line and we stopped for the night and someone, I don‘t know what happened, but someone didn‘t—I got separated from the CO, I don‘t know why, I don‘t know how. 54:10 I kept walking and finally I get up to a point and I realize there‘s no one going by me anymore. I look around and I don‘t see anybody and I‘m thinking, ―Oh shit, what did I do?‖ And here I‘m out in the middle of nowhere. So, there was a ditch and it had just rained, so I slid down the ditch and lay on the one muddy wall. I‘m lying there with my file in my hand and my radio on my back and I‘m thinking, ―Oh God, what the hell did I do? I got to stay here until daylight at least‖, so I‘m there until daylight. Daylight comes around and I‘m awake because you‘re scared. 55:00 I peeked my head up and I don‘t see anything and I thought, ―Oh, geez‖. I could call on the radio, I could do that, but during the night you don‘t want to do that. In the daytime it‘s different because it‘s a little different anyway. So, I peek my head up farther and I see a guy sitting about thirty yards away, one of our guys. I thought, ―Oh God thanks‖, so I made my way over to him and I said, ―Where the hell are we?‖ He said, ―Who the hell are you?‖ I said, ―I‘m the forward air controller, I got separated from the CO‖, and he said, 26 �―The CO is back there, a hundred yards‖ , and I thought, ―Oh shit‖, and I said, ―Okay, okay‖. He said, ―Just—we got guys all along here, just make your way back‖. I‘ll tell ya, talk about stupid. 56:04 I told you I wasn‘t real bright, you know. Anyway, that was one time, and another time I was attached to India Company, I Company, and India Company, at that time, had a CO, how can I describe him? He was not well thought of, put it that way, and he lived up to that expectation, he did. He was a Captain and he used to, when he was with our battalion, he was given jobs that were easy jobs, relatively speaking, road sweeps and stuff like that, which you can get into trouble, but your odds of getting into huge trouble are diminished. 57:01 He used to be given those kind of jobs because the battalion CO didn‘t think that he was—I don‘t know for a fact that he thought this, but with the actions, and easy jobs is a reason why, and also, he was a very important person, this Captain, he had political clout, yes, big political clout. So, the idea was not to let him get into too much trouble. Anyway, needless to say, India was doing a road sweep between the hills—one of the platoons of India was on Hill 37 and the rest of it was over on Hill 65, and the idea was for me, as forward air controller, to go with this platoon over to this Hill 65, meet up with the rest of the company that is going to do the road sweep, over to Hill 52 and drop off a convoy for the army. 58:02 Now, at this time, what happens is that—every battalion has an air officer, a pilot, and we had an F-4 pilot that was the air officer and had never been out in the field, a great guy, pilots are fabulous people, I mean they really are great. I loved them and that‘s why I loved the job that I had, I could deal with pilots, you know. They were fabulous people, I loved the pilot. So anyway, they decided we were going to do a regular setup this time where we have an officer and two communicators, which was ―wow‖, just like the book says. So, 27 �Lieutenant Ferguson, the pilot, everybody called him ―Fergie‖, he was going to go out for the first time , otherwise he stayed in the battalion the whole time, he didn‘t go anyplace, but he would—he hooked up with then, with Jim Logan and myself and I was carrying one radio and Jim was carrying another radio and Fergie was just himself. 59:02 I‘m assuming that Fergie was so nervous about going out in the field that he got drunker than a skunk the night before, typical, and I mean he was wasted. So, we got him over to the platoon and we hooked up and went over to Hill 65. There, they had tanks, Amtracks, and six by‘s, and this was all going to be part of a convoy going out to Hill 52 to meet with the army who‘s coming in from Thuong Duc to pick up their supplies. Thuong Duc was also, one of the areas where we would go to rescue if they got hit. Anyway, so were going out there and Fergie is so drunk –we‘re on top of the Amtrack and in the back of the back of the Amtrack is the ventilator or the ―dog house‘ and he‘s back there sleeping off his hangover. 00:03 Jim and I are up in front and we‘re going down the road, we got a tank in front of us, we got tanks behind us and you got six by‘s and Amtracks you know. Interviewer: So, you got your lieutenant and your Captain arguing about what to do. Yeah, so finally the Captain says, ―This is a direct order Lieutenant, get your people on top of these two vehicles and we‘re going back‖, but he climbs on top of two vehicles. I‘m on the first Amtrack and I‘m sitting right behind the driver, who is down in his hole, and I‘m sitting there and next to me is the Lieutenant in charge of the Amtracks. He‘s sitting there with a sand bagged air cooled 30 caliber and next to him is Jim Logan, my buddy and then behind me is a mass of humanity and Fergie‘s still back in the ―dog 28 �house‖ still sleeping it off. He tied one on, so anyway, we‘re going down the road and pick up the guys we dropped off, and the tank treads are about that wide and Amtrack treads are about this wide, so the driver is putting his treads in their tracks. 1:10 He figures, if there‘s a mine out there he‘s going to get it, not us, a smart guy. So, we‘re going down the road picking up guys and we‘re to almost where we started from and once we do that ―pow‖, we put the pedal to the metal and we‘re out of there. Well, sitting over in the bushes, as we always called him, ―Luke the Gook‖ with a detonator in his hand. That means if you run over the mine it won‘t go off until he pushes the plunger, so I‘m sure when he was our Amtrack with so many guys on top, he‘s saying, ―Oh my God, what a target‖. The tank rolls over, nothing happens, our Amtrack rolls over and right when the back of the Amtrack where the engines at, he pushes it and ―wham‖. 2:01 This Amtrack weighs about sixty two tons. Interviewer: This is one of those— Amphibious vehicles and you also use them on land too; they used them in Iraq that way too, on land. Anyway, he blows it and this thing weighs about sixty two tons, not including the people on top, their gear, the fuel, the ammunition, whatever gear is inside, so who knows how much this sucker weighs. This whole thing goes up almost on nose, imagine that? Here I am right in the very front and I‘m looking at the dirt in the road all of a sudden in front of my face. It happened so fast, you cannot believe, and if that thing had gone all the way over, I wouldn‘t be sitting here today, we‘d all have been dead except the ones that were blown off. Anyway, I‘m sitting there and I‘m thinking, ―uh, oh‖, and the road is in front of my face and I‘m stunned because, ―What in the world?‖ 3:01 The thing drops back down on what‘s left of its tracks. Well these things are 29 �maybe eight feet in the air, tops, and I jump off, hit the ground running and there‘s some barbed wire next to the road, busted right through that, down through the bushes, into a dry rice paddy. I‘m lying there; I‘m flat on my face, lying there, I‘m just lying there waiting for the assault. My rifle was gone, my radio was gone, I didn‘t know where anybody else was, guys were around me, I could see that, and nothing. I thought, ―Oh geez‖, and I wait, and I wait, and I wait, nothing, nothing happens, so I get up and I walk back up the embankment and there‘s the Amtrack burning. The driver‘s still in the hole and there‘s a guy laying on top burning. The driver jumps out of his hole, throws him off the top onto the ground and they smother the fire, but the guy eventually died. 4:05 there was no one else on top of the Amtrack, so I walk around and I‘m looking for Jim. I find him, and I said, ―Where‘s Fergie?‖ He said, ―I don‘t know, I don‘t know‖, and I said, ―Geez, we got to find him‖, so we walked around and seventy five yards away here‘s Fergie lying on a mound, burned about the face, the hands, the neck, all the exposed areas. His clothes were burned, he was right over the explosion and he got thrown seventy five yards away. What happened, I didn‘t have my radio and there was a grunt infantry walking around dazed and I said, ―Come here, you‘re mine, kneel down‖, and I dialed in my frequency and I called in the medevac‘s. 5:00 Fortunately, what happened was our area was being partially being taken over by the 1st Battalion 5th Marines and all there choppers were going back and forth bringing their people and when I called in the medevac‘s they diverted them. I medevaced seventeen guys out of that mess and then we brought thirteen back with us with all the rest of the vehicles, yeah. I never saw Lieutenant Moore again—he was—I don‘t know whatever happened to him. I know the Captain wasn‘t on the Amtrack and I saw him on TV this past weekend while I 30 �was snowmobiling up in Kalkaska. It was something going on in Washington and he was in the audience, never forget a face, never forget a face, even though it‘s thirty some years later. 6:02 Interviewer: Who was this fella anyway? Captain Charles Robb Interviewer: Oh my You know who he was? Interviewer: Naturally, the son-in-law of Lynden Johnson, right? Exactly, he married Lynden Johnson‘s—it was Linda Bird and he became a US Senator from Virginia. Yeah, well after that, Captain Robb got transferred up to division G-4, which is transportation and supply and I never heard from him again, how‘s that? Interviewer: Now, how much longer did you stay with this unit? I was just attached to them, I was with the 3rd of the 7th Marines and I did other operations. Like I say, we went out one time and we were going through a woods and the enemy saw us and they dropped mortars in on us and one mortar dropped on a group of guys and right in the center. Whew, knocked them all down, a couple guys got chopped up pretty good from the shrapnel. 7:02 I was about thirty yards away, the concussion knocked me over, I mean it‘s that much. It depended, just doing different things with different outfits and what happened, in the summer of 1968, this is before this Amtrack thing, every regiment has four infantry, grunt companies, and one night Lima and Kilo were out on a sweep and I was with Mike. Mike came back in, so I came back to base camp and I got my three ess‘s and a little more and it was great. All of a sudden we heard that Lima and Kilo had run into a reinforced North Vietnamese Army force, a 31 �reinforced battalion or something, and there was a hell of a fight going on, and that Kilo had gotten hit bad, real bad. 8:02 So, I was assigned back to Mike again and we went back out there and linked up with Lima. We got out there and the company commander and of, of course, sat down and we sent our guys out and we set up a perimeter. What happened is that Lima was licking it‘s wounds, they weren‘t hit so bad, but Kilo got wiped out. I mean our company guys, we were never full strength, no one was full strength over there, so we‘re talking over a hundred guys easily, maybe a hundred and fifty guys, and I don‘t know how many got killed, but a ton of them. So, we had these big Chinook choppers, so what happened, every guy out there, who was available, one would grab the arms and one would grab the legs, they would walk to the back of the chopper and drop the body off, out the side, come back around, grab another body and around and so on and so forth. 9:04 I don‘t know how many choppers of dead I medevaced out of Kilo, just they wiped out that company something fierce. So, we went with Lima sweeping for that battalion and never found them, made it back to base camp and we were, all of a sudden, a three company battalion. We operated that way until September when what was left of Kilo they formed a whole new company around them. Now, you got to understand this, when they‘re forming a whole new company around— these are mostly new guys from the states who don‘t know their ass from a hole in the ground, they really don‘t, like me once. Again, I‘m not too bright, and I should have been more cognizant of that fact. 10:02 I went out with them on their second or third time out and you‘re going through ojt at this point for them, so we went out in a blocking force, which is a pretty easy job, you set in and you block while somebody pushes the enemy toward you and you pick them off. It gets kind of hairy because bullets are flying 32 �all over the place and you never know, you know. Anyway, so we‘re out there and finally the 2nd Battalion 7th Marines had been the pushing force. They pushed toward us, got up to us, and that was it. Then we all went our separate ways, and a long story short, we went someplace, they went someplace, and we were where we were for a day or so and then we went back to this place where they were and they went someplace else, and that‘s where the end of the world happened. We landed there and I was out with a guy named Holcomb, a new guy, showing him the ropes. 11:08 I told him how to do this, and this, and this, and I said, ―This is how we‘re going to do it‖, and so on. The first thing I had written down was how to do a medevac, the very first thing. I said, ―This is how you do a medevac‖. I wrote it down for him in a little booklet and I said, ―Just watch what I do and you learn, and that‘s the way you learn‘, so anyway, he was there and we walked around the whole area looking for a place to stay for the night, someplace to lay down and so on, you know. Here were all these grunts in the area and they picked all the good spots first, so we got back to where we started from. So, I said, ―Nah, let‘s just take the poncho‖, and there was a big berm of dirt, ―We‘ll stake it up on top, stretch it across and stake it at the bottom. We‘ll sleep underneath and we‘re done‖, so that‘s what we did. 12:04 There was a pathway through the berm to a dyke going across this ditch. The company CO was on the other side and I thought, ―We‘re okay, no big deal‖, so that night we sat in and that was it. The next morning I get up , and being the senior person for the air control, I figure, ―I‘m going to go over and talk to the CO and see what he‘s going to do that day and if he needs anything on station, and what does he need‖, it was part of my job. So again, not real bright, I get up, it was about seven o‘clock in the morning as I remember correctly, and I walk through that opening in the berm, start 33 �walking across this dyke, there was a guy standing there and he was pulling on this tree and I didn‘t pay any attention to it and I should have. 13:02 ‗Don‘t touch anything‖, I learned that, ―Don‘t touch anything unless you know what you‘re doing‖, well, these guys didn‘t know anything. I get about eight feet past this guy and the world blew up, just unbelievable, I just, you can‘t imagine, everything just ―whoo‖. I was standing there and I had lit up, I smoked at the time and had a cigarette in I don‘t know which one of these two hand, I forgot which one. I had this hand out in front of me and I saw this finger go and this is all in a few seconds. I turned it toward me and it was cut right off straight and I thought, ―If that‘s all there is, I‘m lucky‖, because I‘d seen enough guys getting blown up and shot up and I knew how bad it could get, and then the concussion knocks you over. I hit the ground and I‘m lying there and I look around and everything is red and I thought, ―Oh God‖, and a few other things. 14:10 So then what I did, I rolled over and I looked down at my feet because being in the job I was in I knew a lot of guys who ran into land mine, I knew it was a land mine automatically, lost their feet, so I looked down at my feet to see if they were still there. I looked down and they were still there and I thought, ―If I roll on my stomach, will they come with me?‖ No joke, I rolled and they came with me and I thought, ―Yeah, I made it‖. I rolled over and got up on my elbows and I began screaming for a corpsman, and the corpsman was real close by, but I think it took him five years to get there, I swear to god, just the time lapse. He gets over there, reaches down and rolls me back over on my back and began cutting clothes off of me. 15:05 I‘m sure he hit me with morphine, I don‘t know for a fact, they bandaged me up like a mummy, I didn‘t know what was wrong with me, all I knew is when I rolled, ―Do not bend your knees‖. If there‘s shrapnel in there you don‘t want to—that was my 34 �thinking anyway, so he rolled me back and I‘m lying there and I looked over to my left and I had a watch on this hand that‘s the scar, it was still on, it was inside the wrist, and I thought, ―Whoa‖, the face was all blown out, the band was broken in half, so I twisted my wrist over and each side could flop either way, but it stayed inside my wrist, you know. 16:00 So, I shook my wrist and it fell out, and I‘m thinking the whole time, I don‘t feel any pain, maybe because of a shot, maybe morphine, I don‘t know. Anyway, I‘m lying there and they cut the clothes off me, and let me tell you something, when you‘re lying naked out in the field, in the morning after it rains, it‘s cold, I mean it‘s cold. They threw me into a poncho, and that‘s cold, let me tell you, that‘s cold, it really is. It‘s just like being on an operating table without any blankets on there and it‘s cold in that operating room, so I‘m out there in the middle of the field, totally naked now, all bandaged up, and it‘s cold. I‘m thinking, ―Awe geez‖, so they, good old Holcomb, calls in the medevac just like I taught him. He did a good job and he was all alone out there. just like I used to be, all alone. 17:02 Then from there I flew into Da Nang, and the Marine Corps use to use these old H-34 Choctaws from the Korean War. You could run faster than they could fly. They had the big door on the side and the big bulbous nose and the wheels were fixed down all the time, so they came out, it was early in the morning, emergency medevac, flew me into Da Nang, and I got in there and we landed. They rushed out to grab me and rushed me into the emergency. I‘m lying there and all these IV poles are all around me and I‘m thinking, ―What in the world is all this stuff?‖ Then I passed out, I had lost so much blood. Interviewer: Were you hit in the body as well? 35 �Well, what it did , it blew off—it was on the left side, I was in mid step when it went off, it blew off about a third of the left calf, it pulverized the entire left leg going up to the left buttocks. 18:07 I got it in the left arm, inside of the right leg, which means both knees got it, and I just got a knee replacement by the way, which was after all these years it finally wore out. Then I got something in the left eye and didn‘t know it, little pieces that I found out later on. I lost so much blood that I had cardiac arrest, I guess it was an embolism had formed in one of my veins and it broke loose and went to my heart and I was dead. The last think they recorded, according to the records, was four and a half minutes of no activity, so I was gone to the other side. What‘s really weird is somehow the doctor got me back, obviously, I‘m sitting here today. 19:04 I told you about the books that you read and war is boring except for the times you‘re out in the field and something happens, but that doesn‘t happen all the time, it really doesn‘t, it‘s just the normal patrols and routine and it‘s boring, but you‘ve got to be alert, and if you get a chance you sit down and you read something, whatever you can do, you know. Something they show on TV, of guys when they sit down and they‘re playing cards a little bit, or whatever, well that happens, that happens. I‘m an avid reader and you read whatever you can get ahold of, in Vietnam not a whole lot to read, let me tell ya. So, I had read this one—I had read two books, no a bunch of books, but one book I remember especially, the last one, about the Marines in WWI. That‘s all there was to read, so I read it. 20:00 So anyway, so here I am and I‘m out, okay? My mind is somewhere and I‘m fighting Vietnam in my mind, and I‘m also fighting WWI in my mind. Mix those two together and that‘s a trip. When I finally came to I was disoriented, I knew I was in a hospital, but other than that—I had amnesia, couldn‘t remember who I was, nothing, and 36 �I had—in fact it was so bad, I found out from a buddy of mine who was a crew chief on a Chinook, he told me , because he was there when I was there and he got hit about the time I got hit, and he told me, he said, ―Yeah, we used to do these medevac‘s and go out to the USS Sanctuary, which is a hospital ship, or was a hospital ship at that time‖. 21:03 I said, ―Yeah, I was out there for a while. I remember quite distinctly being out there. They used to put me in a wheelchair, strap me in so I wouldn‘t fall out and wheel me out on the deck for fresh air, it was great‖. ―Yeah‖, he said, ―People we brought out to the Sanctuary were scheduled to die‖. I said, ―Really‖, Gordy, he was the crew chief and he said, ―Yeah, they were scheduled to die, the ones we brought out there‖. I said, ―Whoa, no one told me that, if I‘d gotten orders I‘d have done that, but I didn‘t, so what can I say?‖ So, I made it off the Sanctuary, and through the system back to the states, and wound up in Great Lakes over here by Chicago, and then, of course, recovery after that. I went to college, got a degree and became a teacher, God help me. 22:02 I stayed with that a few years and realized that was not for me. Interviewer: What level were you teaching? Junior high and high and the people who hired me loved me, I was good, they loved me, but I just couldn‘t—it wasn‘t for me. So, then I did something else and something else, and back during the seventies jobs were bad, not as bad as they are now, but they were bad back then, and you take what you can get. Finally I got a job working for the Disabled American Veterans, a service organization. The perfect job for me and I worked there for twenty-one years, and fortunately they were into state retirement, the same way my teaching was. I worked for the State of Michigan a while, that was state retirement and it was beautiful, it all bundled together. I worked for the veterans for 37 �twenty-one years and I was a service officer. 23:00 I‘d do the claims, I‘d counsel them, I‘d do this, that, and everything, you know and I retired and I‘m happy. Really, that‘s been my life more or less. Interviewer: A couple of basic questions, and one of them is, as you really got into things in Vietnam, the routine, patrolling, and the different assignments you were getting, and stuff was kind of blowing up around you, and that kind of thing, were you wondering why you were there, did you have some understanding? No, no, no, I put that all out of my mind. It was a job I had to do and I was sort of numb to that. Interviewer: Where you thinking kind of day to day? Day to day Interviewer: Were you counting how long— Was I counting the days? You betcha, I had a calendar, a plain white calendar back at base camp and I‘d be marking off the days, you know, although I have to be honest about it, I planned on extending. 24:01 I had a younger brother coming up behind me and at the time, the word was, it wasn‘t official, was that if you were in service and you were in Vietnam and you had a sibling who, say got drafted or whatever, they couldn‘t be sent to Vietnam while you were there. So, even though Marty was six years younger than me, I had no idea what was going to happen and I thought, ―I‘m going to stay here forever if I have to, if I have to‖, just so Marty wouldn‘t have to do it and whoo, it was scary. Interviewer: To look back at the whole thing now, how do you think that whole experience affected you as a person? 38 �It‘s amazing, it took me thirteen years after I go home—see I was retired out medically from the Marine Corps, It was that bad. 25:01 It took me thirteen years after that to fully come to grips with what happened. I was just going through life, I‘d gotten married, then kids and all—it wasn‘t kids yet, I‘d gotten married and waited for kids, and it was about thirteen years, and I never really thought about it. I used to talk about it a lot, like I do now, I can do that now easily again, but I used to do that, but It never really hit me right there. I could see myself every day how badly chopped up I was, and I knew it was going to get worse, which it has, I‘ll tell you that, it really does, old age plus all this stuff, it‘s not a lot of fun, I‘ll tell ya. I didn‘t—I ignored it and then one day I was doing a claim at the VA, I worked with the Disabled American Veterans, and I was doing my own claim. 26:04 I knew my parents had received telegrams after I had been hit, from the Marine Corps, tell how bad I was and what my status was, and they were not great, let me tell you, they were not great. They were saying, basically, this kid ought to die, he probably will die, so be prepared, that‘s what the sum of the whole thing is, it was that bad. I remember, when I got home I looked at those, my mom had them, I read them and it still didn‘t hit me, even reading the telegrams and I was through it. Finally, thirteen years later I was doing a claim at the VA, trying to get an extra benefit here or there, or whatever, you know, and I called my mom, and I was married at the time, and I said to her, I said, ―Mom, I‘m doing a claim with the VA and I need to use those telegrams‖. 27:04 ―Well‖, she said, ―I don‘t really want to give them, even though they‘re about you, I don‘t want to give them out. Why don‘t I have your father make copies of them at work?‖ My father was an automotive engineer and he could go in to work, to the copy machine, and do anything he wanted to do, you know. So, my mom gathered up the 39 �telegrams and gave them to my dad, he went into work and made copies, and then came back and the copies were waiting for me at home, or at my parents‘ house. I said to my wife, ―I‘m going to go over and get the copies later on‖, and what happened was, we were moving out here. I‘d just gotten the job here, and we were over by Detroit, so our apartment was all chaos. We had a bar stool sitting in the middle of the floor, so I‘m sitting on the bar stool with the phone there. 28:05 I‘m sitting there and the phone rings, my wife gives me the phone, and I‘m sitting on the bar stool talking to my mom. I said, ―Yeah mom‖, and she said, ―Your father called and said that he had made the copies and he‘ll bring them home‖, and I said, ―Great, I‘ll be over later on‖, but she said, ―I just realized I had forgotten to give him one of the telegrams‖, and I said, ―Well‖, I said, ―Gee, I don‘t know if it‘s important or not, why don‘t you read it to me and I‘ll see if It‘s important‖. A stupid thing to do, God that was so stupid I couldn‘t believe I said that, I wasn‘t thinking. So, anyway, she reads the telegram to me over the phone, and I‘m sitting there and I‘m thinking about it and it hits me, the first time in thirteen years, the first time. 29:00 I went nuts, my wife is just getting ready to go to work, and I‘m sitting there, I take the phone over my head and slam it into the floor, and my wife is saying, ―What the hell is going on?‖ I started crying uncontrollably, I went to the door, up against the door, and I‘m pounding on the door, and I‘m thinking, ―Oh my God‖, it gets me going a little right now, you know, and I‘m thinking, ‗What the hell happened?‖ It was me, and so my wife picks up the phone and she says, ―Mom‖, she says, and my mom is going crazy on the other end of the phone, and she says, ―Mom I‘ll get back to you later, something is wrong with Derek‖, and finally she got me calmed down. I sat down and I just—it was horrible, I just cried and I told her, I said, ―Geez, that was me‖. 30:00 40 �So, finally I got it together the end of the day, went over to see my parents and we sat down and we talked at the kitchen table and we cried, God we cried and ever since then it‘s been better, but I‘ll tell you, traumatic. Interviewer: What kind of support were you able to get from the Veterans Administration, or anybody else? I‘m your typical vet, I‘m in denial, you know, I really am, I‘m in denial, I always was, but not anymore, I don‘t deny anything anymore, I just don‘t do it, it‘s not worth it. I went to the VA, of course I had medical problems and dealing with the VA, I went to them a lot. 31:07 My wife would go with me once in a while and she got disgusted with it, you know, because it was a crazy system. It got better, but still it never—I never went for anything emotional, and I never dealt with it and I should have, I should have and I didn‘t do that until the very end, after I got divorced years later, but then I had already come to grips with it myself and I was well past that. They had group for people who had PTSD and everybody who‘s in combat has PTSD, I don‘t care what anybody tells you, everybody‘s got it to some degree and how you deal with it then is something else too. I used to—in the very beginning I had nightmares, but I got over that. 32:03 All the stuff that I saw, I was able to internalize and handle that, and being in the job that I was in, working for the DAV, that was the greatest counseling in the world. Here I am talking to people like me, I don‘t care what war they‘re in, we can relate and it‘s therapy. I don‘t care what anybody tells you, it‘s therapy. We could talk about thing, or different places we were at, or wars, or whatever, or how things were, and it was great. I get my job done and they walk out and I always had a goal and that was, anybody that walked in my office would walk out receiving more than they ever expected to, that was my goal all the 41 �years that I worked, and I lived up to that. I figured, I want to give them everything, and I did that. 33:02 I did a pretty good job too, all the years that I worked. Like I say, it‘s one of those things—the VA, as far as the system, the bureaucracy—one thing I always, and I almost got fired for this, I always—I told my boss this, the hierarch of the DAV, of course they‘re invested in the VA, my boss was one of them at the time, at least one of the bosses I had, and I‘d say, ―Mike, this is stupid‖. I said, ―Here we are veterans and the system is now that you have to go to the clinic here in town, which doesn‘t have a whole lot of capabilities‖, but they handle basic stuff. If you need more you have to go to a veteran‘s hospital. How far away is that? 34:01 In this case, not Battle Creek because that‘s the best Psychiatric unit, and maybe I should have wound up there, I don‘t know, but you go to Ann Arbor, or Detroit, or Allen park at the time. Yet anybody here in town, and this was one of the big things, anyone on Medicaid could go locally for anything they wanted. I said, ―They treat us like second class citizens‖. I used to be rather vociferous about that and almost got fired, but I didn‘t though. Even though Mike sympathized with me, he never went to the VA, he was the boss, so he made more money, he had good health insurance like we did, but he would go privately for all that stuff and so did everybody else who could do that. That‘s what I do now, my insurance is fabulous now, I don‘t go to the VA for anything, because I can get it locally, everything I can get locally and then all I have to do is wait for the end of the year on my medical, if I have any prescriptions, I take it off my taxes. 35:07 I have to wait a year for it and with the VA you get it right now. So, you have to wait or go through the hassle, and that was always the problem with the VA, I just—when I had my hip done two years ago, my hip wore out because of limping on my left leg for thirty-five plus 42 �years, the right hop wore out, it never got hit. I had that done locally and if I had the VA do it, I‘d have to go over to Ann Arbor or Detroit, come on now. Interviewer: A different kind of question. When you got back from Vietnam and you’re out of the hospital, did you talk to people much about being in Vietnam and did people ask you stuff? Remember, I was in denial, so it was easy. I didn‘t get emotional about it and it was very easy to do that. You find people like you who had been there and you talk about it over a couple of beers, or whatever, good old times, you know, and you do that. 36:07 Interviewer: Did people who hadn’t been there want to know anything about it, or did you get treated oddly because you had been there? At that point it wasn‘t like it was in the sixties, okay. Now, I understand, people had told me that in the sixties when they came back that they were spit on and called baby killers, I don‘t remember that because I went through the hospital system on the way back, so I never—and then when I was in college, I don‘t—there was none of that stuff when I was in college. People would talk to me about it and that was in the seventies, the early seventies, 71, 72, 73, and whatever, you know. Yeah, but no, there wasn‘t any of that stuff, I don‘t remember any of that, and I don‘t know if it ever happened, to tell you the truth. I know people who didn‘t like the war, and that‘s fine, and I don‘t blame them. I didn‘t like it and I was there. 37:00 It‘s one of those things, yeah, that you—I didn‘t get any of that. Interviewer: As a final thing, if you were going to give any advice, maybe to military families now, people who’ve got relatives, maybe, over I Iraq or 43 �Afghanistan, or anything like that, about how to support the family members, and so forth, who are there, what can you tell them? Well, it‘s a little different now; unfortunately we have a very small group now bearing the burden. Not like when I was there, we had a large group bearing the burden. That‘s unfortunate, the war is unfortunate, let‘s put it that way, but you have to, if you‘re a military family, or a friend of a military family, when these people come home, both men and women now, when I was there you didn‘t have women in combat, all men, and the only women you saw in uniform were the nurses, basically that was about it. 38:06 You have to treat them with a lot of respect, you really do, because they‘re bearing a burden now that even we weren‘t asked to bear, even when I was in Vietnam. Now they have these ungodly tours, now you have a total obligation that you always sign up for and you enact part of that obligation you signed up for and the rest is inactive. That‘s what we were under and they‘re still under that now, except there‘s so few troops they‘re going for the entire obligation and they‘re keeping you in, I mean, that‘s what they‘ve been doing. I‘s tough, it‘s duration without saying duration like in WWII. In WW II at least they‘d say duration and even then though these guys in combat in WWII would go into combat for whatever short time, they‘d be pulled back and they would go in again, and pulled back. 39:04 You would go back in and be pulled back, now in Iraq and Afghanistan you‘re never pulled back, you‘re there all the time, and if the tour is even longer and you have more tours, no wonder you got a higher PTSD rate going on right now, no wonder, talk about abusing people, that‘s what it‘s doing. Again, it depends on the individual, some individuals can take a lot, some individuals can‘t, some individuals see more, some individuals don‘t, it‘s a whole mix of things. If you‘re a friend of a 44 �family you have to give them consideration, you really do, and we didn‘t have that back in Vietnam. In WWI I guess they all hung together because they were all together and it was different. Interviewer: And there were a lot of them. 40:01 Korea was treated much—and Vietnam were very similar in that way, you didn‘t really hang together as much as you did in WWII, even though it was a short time after WWII. Vietnam was that much later and you didn‘t hang together and that‘s the problem it‘s— and then you see a lot of spouses on TV talking about the VA system. I‘m not talking about the Walter Reed thing they had, that‘s part of DOD still, except you can get out of that and it‘s run by the VA now and it‘s a hassle. While you in, medical care is beautiful, it‘s fabulous, and then when you get to the outpatient, while you‘re still in the service and when you‘re not actually in the hospital ward all the time , it‘s a little better, except for this thing out at Walter Reed where someone screwed up there royal, and the VA, you get out and you‘re on your own. Unless somebody tells you what‘s going on, you‘re picking up little bits of information here and there and everywhere, you don‘t know. 41:08 That‘s where people like me come in with our jobs. We spread the word, not that we did a great job, we did what we could, and yeah, it‘s a tough time. When both these wars started I had my misgivings, I did, I really did, I had misgivings about it. They were saying in and out real quick , well we can do that, with a great military you can do that, but afterward, that‘s where the hassle comes in and it‘s a mess. Interviewer: We do what we can to provide whatever support we can. That‘s right, it‘s—you really have to support these people, it‘s—I have a lot of friends of mine that are Vietnam vets an, of course, after Desert Storm and guys came back from 45 �that very short thing they had going and they got the parades and the accolade‘s and that. 42:03 The guys my age were saying, ―We didn‘t get any of that stuff‘. We got nothing, we got ignored and I used to say, ―Hey that‘s just the way it is, you can‘t change it‖, and now with the guys coming back there‘s—again they‘re getting accolade‘s, thanks and the whole thing, you know, and that‘s great, you should do that, but still some of the guys my age, we‘re hanging together and we didn‘t get any of that stuff Interviewer: That’s in part because of what happened with you guys. They began to realize, after Korea, that it was not fair. Exactly, that‘s exactly, Korea wasn‘t fair, same thing that happened in Korea happened in Vietnam. Interviewer: You have to separate the politics from it, and at least part of that lesson seems to have sunk in. You really do—the guy across the street from me, Marine Corps reserve, spent a tour in Iraq, he came home and I went over and talked to him right away. He knew I retired, you know, I mean, I understand, I understand. 43:07 I told him, I said, ―You‘re back, you weren‘t hurt, thank God‖, and we talked a bit and then another guy across the street, Larry, he was in the service during Vietnam, did make it to Vietnam, but he was in, and his son is in the Marine Corps and fortunately for him, his son is in a specialty that he‘ll never go to Iraq or Afghanistan, it‘s one of those jobs, you know, he‘s—so he‘s lucky, yeah, lucky, and we‘ve talked and I tell him, I say, ―Jeff, geese, you‘re lucky, you‘re not missing anything, believe me‖. He sees me hobbling around and I do what I do, I‘m on motorcycles, I just got through snowmobiling, so I do things, but I say, ―Hey, it‘s tough, it‘s tough‖. I‘m going to be sixty in July, come on sixty. 44:05 I want to be sixty real 46 �bad, I really do. The decade of my fifties was not great. Three major operations, my forth minor operation is coming up next month, I retired, got divorced, all in ten years, how‘s that? Interviewer: Well, let’s hope for a better decade. Now, let‘s go for the sixties, huh? Interviewer: Thank you very much for talking to us. 47 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context FlackD Title A name given to the resource Flack, Derek (Interview transcript and video), 2008 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Flack, Derek Description An account of the resource Derek Flack is a Vietnam veteran who served in the U.S. Marine Corps from July, 1966 to April, 1969. Flack provides detailed discussions of training in California and service in Vietnam during and after the Tet Offensive. Flack was wounded in action and eventually sent back to the US, where he has worked extensively with veterans' organizations. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Byron Area Historic Museum (Byron Center, Mich.) BCTV Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans United States. Army. Medical Corps Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American Video recordings Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2008-01-29 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/07ea3230fc9c81a209d4df31a8b5a326.mp4 c6fd69fd947e35ccf00c5f2f0c8842ab https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3aba1ca360e34ae5cee79092e6eb103e.pdf 222d2db86c1e178ecbfaf683947cad05 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Fred Fleischmann (1:04:30) Background Information (1:00) • • • • • • • Born November 17th 1950 in Grand Rapids, Michigan. (1:05) Served in U. S. Air Force from October 1972-August 1976. (1:17) Because Fred had a low draft number he figured he would enlist and join the Air Force rather than be drafted. (1:35) The draft number was done by birthday. The lower a draft number the more likely a man was to be picked. (3:26) He believed that the draft did a lot of good as it took some low socioeconomic whites and minorities through education processes that helped them later in life. (4:30) Only approx. 20% of the men who were drafted (to Fred’s knowledge) were sent to Vietnam. (6:15) Fred was living in Grand Rapids. He had just graduated from Calvin College before enlisting. (7:32) Training (7:35) • • • • • • Fred attended basic training at Lackland Air Force Base in Texas. (7:36) Men who learned the skills in basic training quickly were bothered significantly less. (8:05) He joined the Air Force with the hopes of being a navigator. Unfortunately he could not do this task due to poor vision. (9:04) Fred was offered the position to be an education specialist where he would help select non educated solders to take high school classes and potential officer candidates to take college courses. This job was located in Washington D.C. (10:34) He assisted approx 300-400 men obtain their high school diplomas. (12:00) During the period of Fred’s service the Air Force was downsizing. Often men without educations would be sent away from service. Because of the need for additional education Fred served a vital position. (12:30) Training cont. (13:50) • • • • • On his first days of service Fred was sent to Detroit, Michigan, to be processed and then by bus to the airport where he was flown to Texas. He arrived at approx. 3 AM. (13:45) The men arrived at the base at 5 AM. The men then began their first full day of training. (15:13) Though the barracks had approx 5-8 toilets, often the men only used 2. This is because they needed several to stay spotless in case of surprise inspections. (16:39) During basic, the drill instructors were cautious about how long the men were in the heat as some cadets did pass out. (18:10) There was emphasis placed on discipline and cooperation with other men. (20:29) Service in the Air Force (21:40) �• • • • • • • • • • • • Arrived at Andrews Air Force Base in late December of 1972 (21:50) When the base received a contract, the money had to be spent or else the contract would not be rewarded the following year. Because of this ridiculous things often happened such as expanding an 18 hole golf course to 36 holes. (23:15) Because of Fred’s close interaction with officers with his education position. He heard much of the information about how the officers from Vietnam felt about the conflict. The officers were very frustrated about how the releasing of POWs was written in the peace talks. (25:17) In 1974 the county Fred was stationed in was desegregated. Because of this the black schools were closed. To compensate for the lack of space, the school system had to use Military schools. Fred had to assist with the desegregation as he was in charge of education for the base. (20:10) Black kids were moved onto on base schools. The black children reacted very joyfully. (29:56) The officer’s wives were not very happy that their children were going to school with black children. (32:39) Fred was also involved with protecting Richard Nixon during his second Inauguration at Union Station. (33:24) Machine gun nests were placed around Nixon’s parade route in case the protesters became rowdy. (34:00) The men were not given weapons while protecting Nixon. (35:24) There was a homosexual man who was assigned to the education department with Fred. He also had a man who was shell shocked assigned to him. He was eventually hauled off by several nurses who worked in the psychiatric ward. (36:00) Fred was encouraged to get a military driver's license. He did not like this idea as it would increase his chances of being called to drive if men or supplies needed to be moved. (38:30) To avoid getting the license, Fred purposely failed several driving exams. Eventually he was given the license. (40:20) Medals and Citation (40:55) • • • • He was made a small arms specialist in basic training. (41:16) He was also elected one of the 12 most outstanding air men of the year. (41:30) Fred was awarded the Air Force service medal. (41:47) Because Fred served alongside many officers who had served in conflicts, he herd stories of how close the Cold War actually came to being hot. (43:00) Life in the Service (43:45) • • • • • • Men kept in touch with their family via phone and letter. (43:47) The food was always fairly good and the men were well fed. (44:00) Fred does not believe that his particular position was especially difficult or stressful. (44:20) On Friday afternoons the education office was shut down. Then one man would run to the liquor store. The high-ranking officers then watched the low ranking men clean. This was often done for entertainment. (45:50) The men did occasionally play pranks on one another for entertainment as well. (47:38) The men who were drafted often had low IQs below 90. These men often took advantage of the opportunity to pursue secondary education. (48:17) Documents (50:00) �• • • • Fred kept the papers from Nixon’s and Gerald R. Ford’s inaugurations. (50:10) Once Fred and several other men met the Russian Olympic team. The team wanted Frisbees and blue jeans. The military could not afford blue jeans but did give the men Frisbees. (51:16) Photos of the Concorde aircraft. (52:00) POWs from Vietnam were often processed through Andrews Air Force Base. (52:44) End of Service (53:43) • • • • • • • • Fred was released 6 weeks early in August of 1976 so that he could attend the University of Maryland on the GI bill. (53:53) He earned a bachelor’s degree for business and economics. (54:16) There have been no reunions for Fred to attend. (55:40) Fred served as a trouble shooter for several organizations as a career after his service. (57:14) He also worked for 7 years in a linguistic department. (58:58) Fred’s wife worked as a professor at Grand Valley State University. (59:40) His opinion about war was not changed as a result of his service. He believes that is the United States’ responsibility to defeat oppressors across the globe. (1:00:00) After his service Fred found that he lost his time as a young man to begin a career. (1:02:11) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context FleischmannFNoId Title A name given to the resource Fleischmann, Frederick (Interview outline and video), 2005 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Fleischmann, Frederick Description An account of the resource Fred Fleischmann, born November 17th 1950 in Grand Rapids Michigan, served in U. S. Air Force from October 1972-August 1976 after the Vietnam War as an educational consultant. After completing his basic at Lackland Air Force Base in Texas, Fred began working at the education department at Andrews Air Force Base outside Washington, DC. Here he assisted men with pursuing secondary education and college courses. He also served on security details at major events, including two presidential inaugurations. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource West, Andy (Interviewer) Engelbert, Aaron (Interviewer) Caledonia High School (Caledonia, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings United States. Air Force Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2005-05-25 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/edb6df67e42f0b949730a18b6041fd93.pdf de58080be0006a6184057a2bed7397a0 PDF Text Text Native American Oral Histories Gi-gikinomaage-min Project Interview: June Mamagona Fletcher Interviewer: Belinda Bardwell Date: April 6, 2016 [Lin] So, I am interviewing June Mamagona Fletcher for the Gi-gikinomaage-min Defend Our History Project. Oral History project through the Kutsche office of Grand Valley State University. It's April 6th, it's about 2 P.M. and we are in the studios of WGVU. I want to thank you June for allowing me to interview you today. I was wondering if you could introduce yourself? [June] Well, I'm glad to be here. My name is June Mamagona Fletcher, and my father is David Mamagona. Who's Grand Traverse Ottawa, and my mother is Laura Stevens, and she is a decedent of the Pokagon tribe, and I am Bear Clan through my mother’s side. I'm married to Richard Fletcher, and my sons are Matthew Fletcher and Zeke Fletcher. On the side note, I graduated from Grand Valley State University many years ago. With my master’s degree in business administration. [Lin] Nice! Where were you born? [June] I was born in Detroit, Michigan. My father was relocated during the forties to Detroit. In a roundabout way he met my mother. So, they lived there for a while. At least while I was born. Then they would move back to Dorr in Allegan County. When my brother was born they moved back to Detroit, so we were both born in the same Mt. Carmel Hospital in Detroit. [Lin] Oh, okay. So, where was your father is located from? [June] He was relocated from--Um, by Traverse City. He lived at Kewadin area, which is on the other side of the Peninsula from Peshawbestown. Then my mother grew up in Allegan County. She was one of the few people who didn't go to the boarding school in that particular area, because she had TB. She was diagnosed with TB. So, about the time that they went from twelve to sixteen, she was in the hospital. Then she was out of the hospital for a few months. Then she was in a car accident and broke her back. So, then she was out again. She was one of the first recipients of the GED certificate. That she earned when she was in the hospital. She was also one of the first people to get her LPN license in-state they had just started the program when she was a young person. [Lin] And where did she work? [June] She worked--Uh, she started out at Allegan General Hospital, and she worked at 1|Page �various places. When she retired, she retired from Michigan Veterans Facility. [Lin] Oh. [June] And then my father was an engineer. He went to college in Angola, Indiana. He was what they call--Uh, a job shopper, or engineer. But, he would do short term projects. So, they would live in various places while he--Um, ‘til he would finish up a project in the particular city. Then usually they move back to Allegan County. Either with my grandpa, or in that area. [Lin] So, that's your Pottawatomie side? [June] Yes, that was my Pottawatomie side. I also lived for a couple years up with my grandpa Mamagona in Kewadin. When my dad was working and going to school through Ford Motor Company. So, that was pretty interesting. He was one of the people that invented the shift system for the Mustang. [Lin] Nice! [June] So, now I know why I like Mustangs. [Lin] That's my favorite car too. Okay, so where was the majority of your time growing up spent? [June] Uh, probably once my brother got older, it was probably Grand Rapids. That's where I grew up. Um, and I went to--I started high school at Central Michigan-Uh, Central Christian, and then I went to-- I graduated from Creston High School. In fact, the year that I graduated Joanne Sprague and I were the only two Native American students to graduate from in the city of Grand Rapids. [Lin] How was attending school being the only two Native people in the school? [June] We didn't actually even go to school together very much. She went to Central and I went to Christian. I mean to say Creston. But, I-- they had a program where I would go to Central once a day for physics class, and then we would go out to lunch together, so--Plus, you know, I'd known her all my life. [Lin] Mhm. [June] She's about the same age as I was, and her family was real close with my aunt and uncle. Well anyway, and there's a lot of Spragues. [Laughter] [Lin] They're sprinkled throughout. 2|Page �[June] Yeah. [Lin] Uh, did you suffer any racism? Or— [June] You know being the only one for many many years in the different school systems that I went to, it was more of a novelty for me when I was growing up. I really didn't--Uh, the most overt racism that I ever came to is when I was in the restroom, after seeing a movie at Studio Twenty-Eight. You know afterwards, after that that big glass of ice tea--you really have to go. [Laughter] Alright, so I'm standing in line and I got finished. And I came out and this woman, she said "Well I'm not going in after her." Then she'd turned around, then the lady behind her-"Well, don't care!" And then she went in there. She wouldn't use the restroom after me. That was probably the most overt. [Lin] Yeah? About how old were you? [June] I was probably about twenty. [Lin] Sheese. [June] And I really didn't care. [Laughter] It's her problem. [Lin] Okay, so you graduated from Creston. And I noticed that you went to Western Michigan University. [June] Mhm. [Lin] What was it like attending there your first--So, you weren't the first-generation college student--'Cause your mother and father were-- [June] Well technically if you go by the federal guidelines, I was. Because my father didn't get a bachelor’s degree and my mother had a certificate, a nursing certificate. So, technically. But, growing up – I actually went to Grand Rapids Community College first. I think probably, I went to college the hard way. You know, I got married first, had a kid, and then decide to go back to college. Which makes it a little bit different. Because then you have home, family, work. You know, then school and studying. That was probably the most difficult way to do it. But, I had a lot of support at home. You know, Richard was real supportive, my mother's real supportive. Helped me to take care of my son and I made it through, and I went to, after Community College, is when I went to Western. Again, you know, my family is real helpful and help me get me through there. After I graduated there, was probably a couple years later when I started working here at Grand Valley State University. Then I worked here for seventeen years. While I was working here is when I got my vouchers. Actually, I was probably one 3|Page �of the first people to use the Tuition Waiver Program. When I was going to GRCC. [Lin] Can you explain a little bit what the tuition waiver program is? [June] Well, it's not really tight down the way it is now, it was more loose. 'Cause people weren't really schools, and the people weren't really sure how to use it. I got my certification through the Bureau of Indian Affairs. So, that's how you did that back then, rather than going through your tribes. We'd have to go--the way they do it nowadays. I also I got some school funding through them to help pay for my child care, when I was going through there. So, everything was through the Bureau of Indian Affairs as opposed to tribes. Everything is run through tribes now. The process was you just fill out the form, and approve it by the BIA. Then you send it to the State of Michigan, and there it was. You know, the school had to waive your tuition, basically. While you was going to school. That was before the State of Michigan actually set up a funding process for the tuition waiver. [Lin] What year was that? [June] Oh, man! [Laughter] Um, let's see. Probably 1979. [Lin] And that was the beginning of that tuition waiver? [June] Yeah, right around there. I think it actually was starting in like ’77, ’78. But, you know, it took them a while to figure out how they were going to do it. So, I think for me it was ’79, is when I… I only got, like, one semester in before I graduated. Then I started in at Western in 1981. Then I graduated from there in ’83. Then I started here in ‘90, I think. [Lin] And what did you do at Grand— [Unknown Person] Can we pause? [Lin] Is it off? [Unknown Person] [Lin] Oh. [Unknown Person] [Lin] Can you restate that question? What was the question? [Unknown Person] 4|Page No, it's not off. [INAUDIBLE] �[Lin] Oh, I was gonna-- I was going to-- So, what did you do here at Grand Valley State University? [June] I worked for the talent search program, and our job was to assist first generation students into continuing their education beyond high school. So, when I first started, we only work with high school students to get them prepared, shown them what the ropes are, help 'em fill out scholarships, college applications, and financial aid to continue their education beyond high school. Okay. And, we worked with alternative schools. So, a lot of my students went to Grand Rapids Community College. And not all of them went for, you know-- Not everybody is going to become a teacher, or lawyer, or whatever. They were mainly going for continuing studies in some area. It could be out of mechanics, it could be nursing, it could be childcare assisting--there was a number different programs that GRCC had back then. That my student started out for, and since we worked with non-traditional students-- What I did, is my focus was on--Um, I had two focuses. One was adult education, and then the other one was the Native American community. So, I assisted probably over the seventeen years, probably hundreds of Native American members of this community. To continue to-- at least know what they had to do to continue their education. You know, they might've not went that year, or they mighta' started and then stopped. And then, you know, five years later they were in a better spot, and then they started back up--but, at least they knew what the ropes were to continue their education beyond high school. [Lin] What were some of the common threads between the Native community and getting access to higher education. [June] Well, knowledge is one thing--that being first generation students, a lot of students didn't know what they had to do to get into higher education. And, having a really good institution like GRCC, where they had a number of different programs that you can use. They had a number of choices that they could figure out where they wanted to use the tuition waiver at. [Lin] Mhm. [June] Because you're--the tuition waiver only covers public colleges and universities. So, we kinda went down that route and for some people they continued on--You know, I have students – You know I meet people at Meijers they'll say: "Oh! Missus Fletcher! You know, you helped me get my master’s degree. Do you remember way back when?” and I just say--well you know! I had eight hundred clients a year! [Laughter] [June] So, you know. Can you give me a break here? Can you tell me what your name 5|Page �was, and where, you know, whatever? But, you know, a lot of 'em have gone to get their doctorates. You know? I think once you know what the ropes are it's easier. Also, it was helpful for the parents too. Because, parents-- They wanna be able to help their students--their kids-- and they don't wanna look like they don't know what they're doing. So, it's nice when everybody comes in and you tell them, you gotta do this, this, this, and this. Had a nice little check list going, and these are the things that you had to do. And, as a parent this is what you have to do, and as a student this is what you have to do. So, graduating from high school was always the number one priority. Which is really nice working with Ron in the community, because he had kind of a nice classroom that I could start out with working with students. He had--we had a lot--we supported each other. So, he would you know say: "Well, June you know this is what we wanna do. And you know, come visit colleges, provide scholarship assistance, and information." And, we would work together in getting these kids graduated. I was just looking at pictures the other day, I was trying to remember what I did way back then, and I'm going, you know, we had a lot of kids that we both worked with over the years that through the Grand Rapids Public schools. [Lin] So at that time, you mentioned Ron, who's Ron? [June] Ron Yob is a teacher that worked with the alternative education programs in the Grand Rapids Public School system. And his classroom was mainly for Native American students. [Lin] So did you work closely with the Native American education program within GRPS? [June] Um, off and on, depending on what was going on. Actually, I worked, probably five years for the Native American Education Program when I first started working in Grand Rapids Public Schools. And then I did not -- um-- I had my second child and went on maternity leave and then when I came back I went into Community Education work. [Lin] Okay so, let me fast forward, you answer all my questions before I ask him. [June] Oh well that's good. [Lin] Less I have to do. Sorry [Laughs] I get off track. Okay I am so being able to focus on the Native community within your job at GVSU, was that difficult to push through GVSU, or did they allow you to focus on the Native community. [June] Well because of the grant requirements, it was fairly easy to work with the Native American community because it was one of our focus areas, because we worked with non-dominant populations. And so, we had various, we had, we worked with 6|Page �the Black American community, we worked with the Hispanic community and our advisors you know had our -- everybody in our program had their different areas of expertise. But our main overall function usually was working with alternative education programs. You know, so we worked with young mothers, we worked with people that were just coming to the community from other countries, we worked with displaced homemakers. So, you know we had a really wide range of areas within our program and one of the things of having a federal grant like that is Grand Valley does sign off and they were always very supportive of our program, as we were going through. [Lin] And the grant that was for Talent Search? [June] Which is one of the TRIO programs through the Department of Education. [Lin] Okay. Yeah that still is going on today. Are there any students that stand out in your history? You know working with Grand Rapids Public schools, there was always a couple of students that stand out and I remember. Just wondering if you had any? [June] Oh well not right off hand. [Lin] Okay. [June] They were all pretty good. [Lin] Um, let's see here, more about Grand Valley. So, working with Ron Yob, what exactly did he do for his students through your perspective. [June] He was a hands-on educator, and an all-around one, so if the student was lagging behind in any of their educational areas he would reinforce that and if they were having problems at home, he would make home visits. And there's been a couple times where both of us had gone to talk to a parent because the student wanted to go to college but the parent was not on board with the student continuing their education. So we would sit and have a discussion about you know what education does for you. And what education does is gives you the possibility of making choices of what you want to do. Many times, um say, you get your education in Education, but that doesn't always mean you're gonna be a teacher. There's a lot of possibilities that you can do within the educational system. You might have a background in business and you might you know end up being a trainer for a large company. You're still in education and you're still teaching but you're doing it in a different focus area. So there's a lot of different possibilities you could do with that, same with nursing. You know you go into nursing and everybody thinks oh you're gonna be a nurse. That's not -- you may end up with Insurance Company. You know, looking at claims and checking out 7|Page �the possibilities, you know, of what you know this claim might cover not cover. [Lin] So you mentioned job training. I noticed that you also had a career as part of the Michigan Indian employment training. [June] I've been on the board for since 1985. Oh, for me it's, oh my goodness, um, and that, originally and still is the focus is to help assist Native American peoples in the work place and the requirements have changed over the years. I think they're slowly kinda winding it down as far as funding goes and as far as support goes with within the government process. Politics are changing, you know, and a lot of it is going with politics on that one. But again, there's a number of people that were - a lot of people that were assisted through the program because of that. [Lin] So what exactly did the program do? [June] Well what it used to do is use to help people. I would work with employers and would place people and employers it would help him with job training. It would help them with the equipment. There was a lot of, you know, everything you might need -- transportation through the public system -- so there was number of things that, you know, would assist people in the area. One of the other things that we did, that I did when I worked with Grand Valley, was we had a higher education advocacy program that we worked with colleges around the State of Michigan. So, say I have somebody that's graduating from Grand Rapids Community College and they wanna become an engineer. Maybe, you know, there are a good enough student and they always really wanted to go to the University of Michigan. So, I would work with that staff person at Michigan to see if the possibility of that student transferring over there and then because of the support program they have, you know, not only would help them, they'd help them through the whole process, a lot of times, even if they were only working, say, in financial aid. You know they would still say, well this is a good place to live or, you know you don't really need a car, or maybe you need to find a place to park a car outside the city and then use the public system within the city to get around. Ann Arbor is, you know, a real different type of city than Grand Rapids, and also bringing that up. I also I had, say like I had students, because I would work, like with you know, with Waylon or Hopkins and the students from there might want to go to like the University of Michigan or Michigan State University, and you know it's a totally different system. You know and I had some success but I also had a few that maybe were not quite as successful. They get into, you know, that huge environment and it was just too overwhelming for some students. [Lin] Was there departments or offices on campus that helped deal with that transition period between living at home going to high school to a bigger university like that? 8|Page �[June] You mean with here? [Lin] With any school. [June] Oh yeah there's all -- it's just a matter of finding the support system, and that's basically like what I would do through my program, is we would dig in the background and find out what needed to be done. You know to make that person that student successful and where they wanted to go. [Lin] Do you have-- um-- did you used to work, you know like Ron and several other people had worked at the Native American Alternative School, that was at Lexington I believe. Did you work specifically with that school? [June] Not specifically with that, because that, when they first started out they weren't part of the public school system. It was Title IVC and it was part of inter-tribal council. [Lin] So you worked closely with inter-tribal council? [June] Well I actually, I was working with a Native American program at that time and our office was there. [Lin] So yeah? [June] Well not really, because we were part of the Grand Rapids Public Schools. So, I worked with the schools as a paraprofessional. [Lin] And where were all those offices located at the time? [June] Well let's see, we had an office, we started -- where did we start out at? We started out at Lexington, then we went to Westside Complex, and then we went back to Lexington and that's where they were when I went on maternity leave. And then after that I think they went, that's when they went to West Bridge, West Middle. [Lin] West Middle. Okay. I think that's when I started working there at West Middle. Let's see, so. So, working in Grand Rapids, did you also live in Grand Rapids too? Or did you live south of? [June] Well I did live here but not when I worked here. I worked -- I lived south of here when my son was, I think he was about four, we moved to Cutlerville. So it wasn't that far away. 9|Page �[Lin] What was Grand Rapids like for Native people back then. [June] Oh I don't know. We used to have a lot of fun. [Laughs] We had a lot of different things you know and we had all our get-togethers and know you we really worked as a close community and so, and when we did projects we did as a community. We didn't do it as say, one person. That's the person that's responsible for everything that went on. We worked together as though there was a number of people that were all contributing in their various areas. When we started the Native American Coalition, it was actually the brain child of Laura Church. She brought in the resources to figure out how we wanted do this. The coalition, whether we wanted to be our standalone entity, or whatever, and since all the members were all--usually came from nonprofit organizations it seemed kinda silly for us to become a nonprofit organization. So that's why we went with the coalition route. I can't think of any of the people around any of the organizations around here that didn't contribute when we first started out. We used to have the Back to School program. Again, that was kinda like a Laura Church idea and everybody just kinda though, “Aw, it's a great idea!” We all got in, everybody made contributions, and everybody--one group would bring in the food, and then another group would bring in projects, and another one would bring in--We had educational centers that would come in and share their information with the community. In the Native community setting, besides back to school supplies. You know? So it was like a--like a whole little community affair fair. [Laughter] They used to be a lot of fun, a lot of work, it was a lot of work. And I don't think that if not everybody had gotten involved we would have been able to do that. But, we didn't rely on just one person doing everything. Which is--which is really what tribal communities are all about. A lot of times, you'll get a person in there and they're the ones that want all the glory. So it's always--"Well I brought these people together, or I did this." Once you start doing that then everybody start backing away. Why should I contribute if you're not gonna give me any of the glory? [Laughs] As a result, I think that was part of the reason why we don't have a coalition any more. [Lin] Can you briefly explain the Native American Coalition? [June] Well, we were group of community organizations that wanted to help, assist, inform, and recognize our community. So, we had kind of all-encompassing type of mission statement. So, we had the Back to School program, we had graduation parties, we had New Year's Eve parties. Used to have-- a lot of communities had potlucks. Different celebrities would come in--like through colleges or whatever. We would invite them to come and say: "We would like to meet you, and would you like to come to our potluck?" And, many times they would come. We would welcome new members of the community. For example, when Jeff and Betty Davis came--We had a nice little organization. It was a lot of fun to get together. I'm sure it really put them on the spot. [Laughs] them and 10 | P a g e �their children. But you know it's just a fun getting together. [Lin] Who's Jeff and Betty Davis? [June] Jeff was the--was--on the--What do they call it? Assistant Attorney for-- Which one is it? I can't think of--Brain fart. [Lin] He's a federal attorney, I believe. [June] Yeah, but he doesn't do it any more, 'cause he has a different function now--but he was assistant attorney I think--I was gonna say he's looking at his phone. [Lin] Is he googling it? [June] Yeah. Probably. [Laughter] [Lin] And who is Betty Davis? [June] Well, at the time she was a wife, but she is now the director, I believe, of Native American Education Program. [Lin] Besides the functions of the coalition put on, what other--You said there was a lot of fun activities in Indian--In the Indian Community in Grand Rapids. What other sorts of activities existed? [June] Oh, I forgot the vet's pow wow. The coalition used to do the vet's pow wow too in November. Well we--there's the pow wows they have in the spring. That Grand Valley would put one on, and then the other one--Well it's hosted down by the Grand River Ottawa. The two pow wows. You know, once you get to the summer time you have pow wows around the state. It's not stuck just to one community. It's kind of a state-wide community. [Lin] So, what did your family do within the Native community? You and your children? [June] Well, when my son--As adults, my sons now are both attorneys, and um. Matthew is a professor at Michigan State University. He's also judge at, I don't know, six or seven different tribes. My younger son is private practicing attorney that works with tribes. So, they both work in tribal law. [Lin] You proud of them? [June] Of course-- [Lin] Mmm, I'm nosy. 11 | P a g e �[June] --and I got the greatest grandchildren. [Laughter] [Lin] You had mentioned that back-- Back in the day, like I don't know what time frame that is, but the Native community was together, and planning functions, and doing functions together. Do you see a difference in today's Native community? [June] Yes. I don't think we're as close as we used to be, and I don't know if it's because people were--people my age we all kinda clan together anyway, the baby boomers. Because we just did. Then maybe that just kinda rolled over into the community at large because there were just so many of us about the same age. So, we really enjoyed each other's company. We had the same rock stars, a lot of the same backgrounds. With-- Neither of my parents went to boarding school, but a number of our parents--our aunts and uncles, and other relatives did go to boarding schools. I think we lost a lot, well I know we lost a lot, by doing that because part of it is--a big part is the language. When I was little my grandpas took care of me, because I had no grandmothers. So, we lived in Allegan County was my grandpa Pete took care of us, and then when I lived up North it was my grandpa Ben. They spoke Ottawa and Pottawatomie to me. When I dream about them that's what they are speaking to me in my dreams, but I can't, I don't understand what they're saying. [Laughter] [Lin] My next question. [June] But the little me does. Not the adult me. [Laughter] [Lin] Have they ever shared any stories about the boarding school with you? [June] Neither my grandpas went to boarding school. My aunt went briefly to Mount Pleasant. She was one of the--I don't know. I think she's probably one of the last ones to go to the Mount Pleasant boarding school? She didn't like being away from home. So, she didn't continue--she only went one year. But my grandpa would pay to have somebody drive down--drive her down to Mount Pleasant from Kewadin. Then bring her home on holidays and weekends and stuff. My uncles-my grandpas’ brothers. Three of them went to the University of Michigan. My Uncle George is in engineer, and two of them were in law. But one just started, and then he was killed in accident. So he didn't finish. Then the other one died also, so my Uncle George is the only one that actually made it through, then he moved away. [Laughter] [Lin] Where did he move to? [June] He went into service with the government. Then I'd hear just some wonderful stories, weird stories, about him. Mostly, it sounded like he was a civil engineer. Then he went into government service, and settle down in Pennsylvania 12 | P a g e �[Lin] Okay. [June] So for when I grew up, I thought myself, my brother, and my dad were the only actually named Mamagonas left. So you kinda grew up thinking well, you know, this is it. We're the last ones with the name. Especially my brother, because my cousins-- with my aunt--all married Churches. So, their name was all Church. Then my dad's other brother had one daughter. Of course, she changed her name. Of course, I change mine too eventually. But my brother would have been the last one. Well, thanks to Facebook, we found out that George had three sons. Each one of those three sons had like three or four children. Each one of those three or four children had like five to eight children. So between Pennsylvania and Florida, we're just like talking like zillions of Mamagonas. [Laughter] [Lin] Right. [June] You know, thinking that you're the only one. Then come to find out that there is this whole group out there that all have your name. And think their Cherokee. [Lin] That's comforting. And they--they what? [June] They think they’re Cherokee. [Laughs] [Lin] Aw. [June] See what happens? You know, it goes on, and on, and on. [Lin] Right. [Lin] So growing up with you, and your family, and then your children-- Does religion play a huge part of your spirituality? [June] Well we're religious. Belonging to the United Methodist Church. My kids grew up within the church. But as you get older, you got things to do. [Laughs] So you go to churches for weddings and funerals. [Laughs] At my age is more funerals than not. [Laughs] [Lin] Aw. So back to the urban Grand Rapids area. Kind of the lifestyle and the time period. What influences do you think that the National Indian, American Indian Organization such as civil rights organizations or political organizations. I am played in the Grand Rapids. why you're in the Grand Rapids area while you were here? [June] Trying to think that far back. I would say none. 13 | P a g e �[Lin] None? [June] You know, we had-we had the Wounded Knee, and people would talk about it, but that wasn’t here. If you look--I did a presentation many years ago. Part of that was I wanted to see what kind of presence we had within the public eye. And, the only times we were mentioned in the newspaper between this fifty-year period was Wounded Knee back in what? 1889, ‘99, whenever it was, and Wounded Knee again back in the seventies. Too. There was nothing else about it. It was just like we did exist in all that time before or after. You know, Wounded--And that's not even us! [Laughter] You know there was no mention. The Anishinabek Community at all in the public eye. So when they, like when they did the dedication of the of the statue in Ah-Nab-Awen Park, everybody goes: "Oh, look! There's a statue to them!" Then, you know, it's just like people still think that you live in teepees and ride ponies. Even when I used to do presentations. I had a sixth grade I presented to. They wanted to know where my teepee was, and how many horses I had. All I says is: "All I got is a Ford [Laughter] and I live in-- I live in a ranch house right around the corner from here. They're going: "Oh!" And these were--children that--kids that--my children went to school with. [Lin] Mhm. Do you see things changing? [June] Sure. Sure, I think there's a there's a lot of changes. There's--there's some probably some backlash since there's a lot of children that are not identifiably Indian. Like I am, or like you are. My grandson is one of them. I have a grandson that's--When he lived up in Traverse City the kids would say: "You can't do this because you don't look Indian." He still remembers that! Here he is thirteen years old, and he was--Just year ago, he was tell me about that. He says: "So, does that make me not Indian?" I say: "No" [Laughs] I says: " You are an Indian as part of your- your heart, your heritage, and your history." [Lin] Yeah, it's a delicate balance between tribal citizenship-- [June] Oh, right. [Lin] It’s very divisive. [June] And, its more difficult for those who don't. I also have two other grandsons that are brothers. One's blonde hair blue-eyed, and the other is black hair brown-eye. Everybody goes: "They're brothers?" [Lin] I have a couple of nephews that way too. So, if you could summarize into one to two highlights about who you are as an urban native, what would you want to pass on to the next generation? 14 | P a g e �[June] I think that you should be true to yourself, and what you stand for--and do the best that you can do with whatever you decide to do. That's what my mother said. Is if you think you wanna go into the public eye because you want to bring out the history--then stand for that. If you want to improve the educational background a of person-- Realize that you won't always get the glory, because somebody else is always gonna be credited for what you do. That doesn't stop you from doing what you want to do. If that's what you want to do, then do it. [Lin] Very nice. Is there anything that I didn't ask that you wanted to talk about? [June] Probably education. When I went to college my focus was on business, because I didn't see myself as a teacher. I didn't see myself as an office worker, and I didn't see myself as a nurse. Which the women in my family were nurses. My mother, my aunts, my cousins. I got a lot of nurses there. I also had some teachers. I think my family--I have 51 first cousins, and out of all those first cousins every single one of them is graduated from high school. That was-- that's one thing that is always been real prominent. Not only my family, but in my dad's fami--My mom's family--But my dad's family too. I think that that was part of my promotion for actually getting where I am at. Because, like I said, it wasn't my first focus. Business was the area that I found most interesting. My mother was always the one that said you gotta be educated. Which her father told her. You gotta be educated so that you can support your children, because that's always your number one priority. Your number two priority is your family. So, you got your child, and you got your family. Then you have your community. I think those are probably some of the things that kinda guided me as a made my decisions through the--through the degrees that have gone through. I think having both sides of my family be educated in one way, shape, or form, has helped kind of support me in that area. I think overall my family at large has been real supportive of us getting our education. 'Cause I'm not the only one who's educated my family with the higher education. As a matter fact, one of my cousins just got his doctorate. So, I'm gonna have a party on the thirtieth. [Lin] In what? [June] You know, I think it's philosophy. [Laughter] [June] Isn't that what PhD's are all about? [Laughs] [Lin] I don't know. I don't think I'll find out. [June] I know. [Lin] Never say never, right? 15 | P a g e �[June] Mhm. [Lin] Levi had sent me a couple of questions. [June] Oh, I wanted to say too, I was one of the first King Chavez Park Scholars. KCP [Lin] Oh. [June] Myself and a guy up north. We graduated the same year. [Lin] And that was a high school scholarship? [June] No. It was a graduate fellowship. [Lin] Nice. [June] That we both got. We both happened to finish at the same time. So, can't say we were first. [Laughs] [Lin] So knowing now--If you knew now--If you knew back then what you know now, would you continue? Would you have gotten an MBA? Or, would you have gone into something different? [June] No, I think I would have stayed with what I went, because that's what I find most interesting. [Lin] Business? [June] Mhm. I like to tell people what to do. [Lin] I like to do that too. [June] I know! [Lin] We're so good at it! [June] Bossy Odawa women. [Laughter] [Lin] I think that's all I have. [June] Okay [Lin] So. 16 | P a g e �[June] Well, thank you for inviting me. Thank you for sharing and asking. [Lin] Thank you for your participating in this project. I appreciate everything that you've done and will do for the community. [June] It's nice to be noticed once in a while. [Laughter] okay 17 | P a g e � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/0a16ce6b5e2dbd7ca90a0dce0457e945.mp3 db129eeaf846cdfca27c38088e6a8fac Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Gi-gikinomaage-min Interviews Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Native American Advisory Council Grand Valley State University. Kustche Office of Local History Description An account of the resource Interviews with members of Grand Rapids' urban Native American population collected as part of the Gi-gikinomaage-min Project: Defend Our History, Unlock Your Spirit. Translated from Anishinaabemowin, the original language of this area, Gi-gikinomaage-min means "We are all teachers." This is the name our project team choose to convey to the Native American community that through our stories and experiences, we are all teachers to someone. As we share those stories, we are allowing for our next generations to experience the past. Grand Rapids’ Native American community grew dramatically in the last half of the 20th century as a result of a little-known federal program that still impacts American Indian lives today. Called the Urban Relocation Program, it created one of the largest mass movements of Indians in American history. The full scope of this massive social experiment and its impact on multiple generations of Native Americans remains largely undocumented and unexplored. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015/2016 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Gi-gikinomaage-min Project Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Subject The topic of the resource Indians of North America Indians of North America--Michigan Indians of North America--Education Potawatomi Indians Bode'wadmi Ojibwa Indians Anishinaabe Navajo Indians Dine'e Cherokee Indians Tsagali Aniyunwiya Archaeology Mound-builders Hopewellian culture Indian arts--North America Personal narrativse Grand Rapids (Mich.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Special Collections & University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-10 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Moving Image Text Language A language of the resource eng Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-10_Fletcher_June_Mamagona_0416 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Fletcher, June Mamagona Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-04-06 Title A name given to the resource June Mamagona Fletcher interview (audio and transcript) Description An account of the resource June Mamagona Fletcher is a member of the Match-E-Be-Nash-She-Wish Band of Pottawatomi Indians (Gun Lake). She was born in Detroit, Michigan and has lived in Dorr and Grand Rapids, Michigan. She holds an MBA from Grand Valley State Unviersity as well as degrees from Western Michigan University and Grand Rapids Community College. In this interview, she discusses her family history, education, and the Native American community in Grand Rapids. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Bardwell, Belinda (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Potawatomi Indians Bode'wadmi Personal narratives Grand Rapids (Mich.) Indians of North America Indians of North America--Michigan Indians of North America--Education Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Gi-gikinomaage-min Project Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9f46468d32b54e4bafa02810ad6938ae.pdf 97ff4af8f433e0def045774ddeab1476 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Carlos Flores Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 3/29/2012 Biography and Description Carlos Flores is a cultural activist who lived at La Salle and Superior in the La Clark barrio, growing up on Armitage Avenue. He takes pride in relating that his family was “the last of the Puerto Ricans to leave Lincoln Park” and recalls life in Lincoln Park which included his share of minor street battles as a teen member of the Continentals Social Club. Mr. Flores also fought for Puerto Ricans as a full fledged member of the Young Lords.Mr. Flores served on the Chicago Mayor’s Advisory Council on Latino Affairs, under Harold Washington. This council was first set up in 1983 by the Young Lords and four other Latino representative organizations city-wide soon after Harold Washington was elected the first African American mayor in Chicago history. Its purpose was to make recommendations of potential candidates to the various departments and for other Hispano concerns. Mr. Flores earned a Bachelor’s Degree in Education from the University of Illinois and he holds a Master’s Degree in Criminal Justice. He has worked as a private investigator for the Office of Civil Rights, Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, and the Illinois Department of Public Aid. He plays the vibraphone, is a free- lance photographer, and a documenter and promoter of Puerto Rican and Afro-Caribbean music. Mr. Flores is also founding member of the Puerto Rican Arts Alliance and a former coordinator for Project Kalinda, at Columbia College’s Center for Black Music Research. Since 1998, Mr. Flores has assisted in organizing an annual Cuatro Festival. He produced a documentary film about the 1998 Havana Jazz Festival and has �written many essays on Afro-Caribbean and Puerto Rican music, some published in journals such as Chicago’s De Paul University Dialogo and the Centro Journal of Hunter College in New York. Mr. Flores has conducted his own oral history interviews with Chicago Puerto Rican residents, and as a photographer has held exhibitions at Malcolm X College, the Old Humboldt Park Stable Museum and the Old Town School of Folk Music. Currently, Mr. Flores continues his community leadership, giving lectures on Puerto Ricans, Afro- Caribbean music, and urban renewal displacement for the Urban Life Center. He also teaches a workshop for the Neighborhood Writing Alliance and another workshop on Puerto Rican tiple construction. �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: Okay, if you could -- Carlos, if you can give me your full name, when you were born. CARLOS FLORES: Yeah. My name is Carlos Flores. I was born in Guayama, Puerto Rico, in 1949. I arrived in Chicago in June of 1959, at the age of 10, or right before turning 10. The first place that I moved to that I lived in Chicago was in Superior and La Salle, which is like in the area right around Clark Street and Chicago Avenue, near there. And so I spent a couple of years there, and then went to school at Ogden Elementary School. JJ: How old were you then, about? CF: 10, 11. JJ: So what was Ogden like? I mean -- go ahead and answer. CF: Ogden school was, well, you know, it was kind of interesting because back in those days, it was a lot of Puerto Rican -- my sisters were already here. They had been here, like, maybe three or four years before. But Ogden School [00:01:00] was kind of like, at that time there was no bilingual education, so what I remember from that situation is that I used to be put in the back of the room, and all I did, I spent drawing in Crayolas all day long because, you know, I couldn’t communicate with the teacher. I couldn’t participate in the classroom because I didn’t speak the language. So, you know, it was a disadvantage in terms of my educational process at that early age, in terms of the disruption that happened with it. You know, coming from Puerto Rico, being in school, and then 1 �coming here and actually being put through that whole disruption, which eventually did have an impact on my educational life because eventually, I ended up dropping out of high school and getting kicked out of high school. You know, I just like -- the interest, and I really lost focus in terms of, you know, educational objectives, you know, that you might have gone through as, you know, as -- I mean, the [00:02:00] initial process would have been to go through grammar school, high school, and then into college. That would have been the smooth transition. But many of us came here, and the disruption of the language barrier actually caused -- had a cause and effect on a lot of our lives because of the fact that we -- by the time we’re already in high school, we just, you know, we were so far behind trying to catch up that a lot of us just gave up, had no aspiration. I mean, and then, you know, people would not have ever talked to us about going to college. That was like something that you need, you know, it was unheard of, you know? So. But, you know, I remember living there. I remember there was -right on the corner of Superior and Clark Street, there was a store called the Spanish American Food. It was kind of like one of the first stores that actually provided services to people living in that area. So they had all kinds of produce, and all kinds of stuff. Then you had several theaters on Clark Street. You had [00:03:00] one which was called the Standard, which we used to call [el marito?], which, you know, was like 10 cents a pop, but it was horrible. And then down the street was the Newberry, which was about a block away, and then about two or three blocks from there was the Windsor, which was on Clark and Division. And so those were the theater houses that we would go to when we were kids. But 2 �then I didn’t live there. You know, we lived maybe one or two years there. Then we moved to 17th -JJ: What type of housing was there? CF: Well, you know, we live in apartment buildings. And you know, there was a lot of Puerto Ricans living there. They were all living, and right there, in the corner of La Salle and Superior, there was also an orphanage that was run by the Catholic archdiocese. There was a lot of orphans that lived there. I mean, the building is still there. The area’s changed a lot, but that particular building is still there. A lot of the housing that was there was a lot of apartment buildings. And so basically that was the [00:04:00] kind of housing that was there. We used to live like on the third floor, right there on Superior and La Salle. Then from there, we moved to another building -- JJ: The [Water?] Hotel was across the street? CF: The what? JJ: The Water Hotel. Was that across the street? CF: The Water Hotel? JJ: There was a hotel called the Water Hotel. CF: There was a bunch of hotels, man, on Erie, Ontario. I mean, they was part of Skid Row in a way, back in the days. I mean, I was too young to, you know, even realize, but I know that there was like on Clark Street, south of Chicago Avenue there was numerous hotels that actually, you know, housed a lot of the people that would -- at that time, you know, they were called bums, and they were just bumming around. A lot of alcoholics, and it’s kind of interesting because it’s right 3 �in the outskirts of downtown that you had this thing going on, and then all of a sudden when the city, you know, began to clean up, they really cleaned up, you know. They surgically just removed all those people, just like they removed people [00:05:00] from, you know, in other areas a little bit later on. But they began by cleaning out that whole area. I mean, they’re still doing that, you know. They’re doing it all the way on the west side now where the united -- the United Center is, where the Bulls play basketball. The UIC, Cook County Medical Center, and Rush Presbyterian. That whole area has been surgically removed, and they’ve gotten rid of all the people who live in those areas. So like it started there, but there was a lot of, you know, it was called Skid Row back in the days. I don’t remember the name of the hotels, but there were quite a few that were, you know, up and down the street. Also on State Street, too. So. JJ: So you were going to Ogden, and then from there where did you go after that? CF: From there, we went to -- we then moved to 1714 North Larrabee, which was another, you know, Puerto Ricans were also moving to that area. And from there, I went to a school called Newberry, [00:06:00] which today is called a Newberry Academy. It’s like a school where a lot of the -- what is it, the talented, creative kids go to school there now. But back in the days, it was like, there was a neighborhood school, and there was a lot of us that would go to school there. It was kind of like somewhat integrated. It was becoming more integrated as more people lived there. So that’s how we actually -- where I grew up most of the time, in terms of my whole teen years, on Larrabee Street. I used to hang out at St. 4 �Michael’s High School, St. Michael’s Church, which was like two blocks away from my house, and -JJ: So you didn’t go to St. Michael’s at all? CF: No, I didn’t go to -- I went to St. Michael’s in high school. JJ: Oh, in high school. You didn’t -- CF: So in grammar school I went to, like, I went to Newberry and I went to [Arnold?]. JJ: And Newberry was a -- CF: Public school. JJ: Public school that was mixed, you said, at that time? CF: Yeah, it was integrated. It was integrated. It was integrated. Mostly, you know, Puerto Ricans, whites, some Black kids. [00:07:00] There were some kids that used to live on Burling Street where, you know, we used to call them gypsies, you know. They were like some of the gypsy kids that lived there. But they were like from different parts of Europe, and their families, like the [Horvaths?] and the [Doonas?], and the [Laceys?]. Those were the names of the people who lived there. JJ: So there were a lot of them, though. CF: There were a lot of them. There was like a whole block on Burling. I mean, it used to be to the point that we used to get into fights with them. But then at the end, at one time there used to be, you know, like they used to mess with us, you know, as kids, and then eventually we outgrew them, and after a while we actually -- there was more of us than there was of them. But at one time, they 5 �were kind of like these bullies kind of kids. Like I remember one guy named Dennis Horvath, and [Gary Doona?] all those guys, you know. JJ: Yeah, I knew Gary Doona. I met him. CF: Gary Doona, yeah. All those guys, you know, they thought that they were like some bad dudes, but in reality, you know, when it came down to nitty gritty, you know, [00:08:00] they didn’t have no heart. JJ: So now when you were fighting them at that time, you were not part of a group. CF: Nah, it was just kid stuff, man. Yeah, you know, grammar school, you know, sixth, seventh, eighth grade, you know, that kind of stuff. And like I said, after a while, we actually outgrew them. You know, there was more of us than it was them. You know, it was like, so there was always a lot of conflicts in grammar school after school. But you know, like six -- JJ: What were some of the conflicts? CF: Huh? I don’t know. I guess someone probably saying something to one of the girls who actually was a cousin of them, or their sister, and they didn’t want -because you know, in a way, they were a little bit prejudiced, you know. Even though they looked just like us, you know? They were like dark-skinned, oliveskinned people, but they were like -- they had some kind of -- some prejudices and racist attitudes about, you know, who we were as a people. And you could tell. You know, you could always tell that attitude about [00:09:00] you know, like, they would not hesitate in calling somebody “nigger”. You know, and in a moment’s notice. But yeah, but that was not even an issue. You know, after a 6 �while, they just like calmed down and chilled. So from there, you know, I went to school at Arnold, and then my family also then bought their first house. JJ: So they moved from Larrabee -- CF: From Larrabee to 1120 West Armitage, which is right on Armitage, near Sheffield. Now when I was living on Larrabee, it was kind of interesting because I was involved in that community. As a matter of fact, I actually played baseball, little league baseball, in this one league called the Old Time Little League, and I was probably like the Jackie Robinson of that league because I was the first Black, Puerto Rican kid that played baseball in that whole league. And then, but that was a whole thing in Lincoln Park where I grew up. JJ: What were some of the teams there? [00:10:00] You know, because I played in a baseball team, too. CF: Yeah, but you know what that -- JJ: But I never was too connected -- CF: Well that little league, the teams were like -- JJ: Oh, we played regular hardball in little league. CF: Right, it was a little league. But these teams were like named after baseball teams. You know, like I was in the team called the Cubs, and they had the Cardinals, and so, you know, it was an interesting little league. JJ: I was on the Leprechauns. CF: The what? JJ: The Leprechauns. CF: The Leprechauns? 7 �JJ: Yeah, and there was an Italian baseball [medic?]. CF: Yeah, well I played baseball [all but the ball?]. But the interesting thing about Lincoln Park during that time period is that every Sunday, every weekend, the place is packed because, you know, the passion of a Puerto Rican was baseball. That was their thing. And so every Sunday you went to Lincoln Park, that place was really packed. You know, my dad used to be a baseball manager. They would use all the diamonds in the park. Every diamond, baseball diamond that was there was being utilized. And you know, I remember them playing league ball, but then they were playing softball, [00:11:00] the 12-inch fast pitch, which was actually a league that was run by the Caballeros of San Juan for many, many years. But so, you know, Puerto Ricans on Saturdays and Sundays were usually in that park. I mean, if you go by there now today, it looks like a desert because ever since, you know, people started giving them doubt, and Puerto Ricans no longer use that park to play baseball anymore, and the high schools closed down. So I don’t know what they’re doing with that land. I mean, it’s just there, and nothing’s being done with it. The baseball -- I hardly ever see anyone playing baseball there anymore. JJ: So you mentioned the Caballeros of San Juan. Who were they? CF: Caballeros of San Juan was this organization that was formed by the Catholic archdiocese to actually I guess, you know, make life a little better for Puerto Ricans that migrated to Chicago. Like, you know, the big migrations started coming to Chicago like in 1946, and from 1946 to 1966, it was a major migration. I mean, one of the biggest [00:12:00] migrations of one particular group from one 8 �area to the other, and there’s like thousands and thousands of Puerto Ricans that migrated here, you know, looking for a better life, better jobs, and so a lot of the people that came to live here were not -- you know, they were kind of like in a way peasants, in a way. They were not, you know, educated people. They were like people that, you know, were either working as peasants or farmers, and they decided they wanted a better life for their kids and their families, so they just took a chance, got on a plane, and came here. And they found work, and they did okay because, you know, some of them raised families, you know, had their kids go to college for the first time, and the end result is that we have some of the major players that live in this city who actually came from those families. So it wasn’t, you know, it wasn’t a group of really educated, sophisticated, middle class [00:13:00] Puerto Ricans that migrated to the city. It was basically more the less educated, poor peasant population that came from Puerto Rico from 1946 to ’66. I mean, now, you know, it’s a whole different ball game. But those were the people that were living here like in the ‘50s and in the ‘60s. You know, and then living in different areas of the cities where they came. They actually lived in the south side, in Woodlawn. They moved to, you know, Clark Street, which is like near Lincoln Park. I think they call that now Gold Coast. That’s what that neighborhood’s called now there. Because you know that Chicago is broken into all these, like, trendy neighborhoods. Gold Coast, they lived in Garfield Park, they lived in Lincoln Park, Humbolt Park, and so they lived -- they were scattered throughout the whole city. So -- and as they came here, they began to establish their own little things. So with the Caballeros and the archdiocese there then, 9 �[00:14:00] I think that they were part of this process of actually recruiting Puerto Ricans to come to work here. Because that’s how the whole migration came, you know. There was an employment agency that went to Puerto Rico to recruit. JJ: What was the name of that? CF: I think it was Castle something. It starts with Castle. It was an employment company, employment agency that recruited. And what they were doing is they were looking for domestic workers and also people to work in the steel plants in east Chicago and throughout the city. And so you know what they did is they actually brought in like kind of like a labor force from the island to work here. And so, you know, a lot of these folks came, they didn’t speak the English, they, you know, it was a whole rude awakening coming from beautiful island to this winter, this cold, cold-blooded, you know, big city, and so the thing is that [00:15:00] the Caballeros and the archdiocese, given that, you know, most Latinos, mainly Puerto Ricans, Mexicans, Latino and Latin American, and the Latin American and the Caribbean, they’re all -- they’re Catholics. So this is a service that the archdiocese put together, and they began programs of how to make Puerto Ricans, you know, to -- what’s the word I’m looking for? To integrate, and to actually melt into the melting pot, into the mainstream of here in the city of Chicago. So they would give them, like, English classes. They would, you know, do social programs to help them out. There was also this whole system of, you know, recreation. That’s what they did, you know, so one of the recreations would be baseball leagues. They created baseball leagues, softball leagues. They used to have all these councils in different neighborhoods, Concilios, where 10 �a lot of the people from that area, based on a parish. So they would take a church, [00:16:00] and they would have a council out of those churches. So like in St. Michael’s, where I grew up in, it was Concilio Numero Tres, Council Number Three. They were gone -- they were not given names, but they were like by numbers, you know, Council Number Three, Number Four, Number Five. They had one south of -- they had one in Chicago on Orleans, which is part of St. Joseph. They had them all over the city. And so they come together, they played baseball, they played dominos, they would have fundraisers, and they would have dances. And it was an interesting, you know, clique of people helping each other out back in those days. And then you also had the whole dynamics which a lot of people have never even studied. I mean, I think that this is something that is part of a history project in its own, is this whole thing of social clubs. Because you know, nowadays in Chicago, you have, like, for example, one of the biggest clubs you have here is La Sociedad Michoacana, [00:17:00] which is, you know, a lot of these people from Michoacan, which actually from Mexico, will actually have formed like a civic society, Los Hijos or La Sociedad Michoacana. And these folks will send money back to even to the point where they actually have bought ambulances and firetrucks with the money that they made here and they sent it back. But that whole concept is a concept that it had been here already, because the way that the social clubs work is that, for example, they would have [La Sociedad de Ponce, Los Hijos de Vega Baja?], and they had their own little -besides what the Concilios had in the archdiocese, they had these private clubs. And what they did is that they had dances, they raised money, they had their 11 �own, you know, officers, and they would, like, self-sustain. And so they also provided and all this. So like if someone from Vega Baja was going to come to Chicago, the people in Vega Baja would say, “Well you know, when you go to Chicago, [00:18:00] check out the people in the Vega Baja club.” And you go there, and you go there, you introduce yourself, and you’re going to find people that either know you, know your family, know where you’re from, and they would help you find housing and jobs and so forth. So there was -- it was kind of like an interesting thing. I mean, I think -- I mean, that’s been one of my things of actually going back and studying that whole concept with the social clubs, you know, [Los Hijos de Ponce?], [Los Hijos des Caguas?]. Every town had a little social club, man. And that kind of, you know, kind of kept the community together in terms of knowing, you know, who was what, what was going on. So it was kind of like our own little community being formed. Because you know, down in Lincoln Park, we had what they call a Puerto Rican community center. The Puerto Rican community center was located on Dickens and Halsted on the second floor. They had a baseball team. They had -- they were there for years. I think this guy named Mike [Rivera?] was the president of it, and [Florito?] and all these guys were, [00:19:00] you know, people go there on weekends to play dominos, play pool, hang out, have a beer. And you know, that’s how they were able to keep themselves afloat from, you know, from all that other stuff, you know, in terms of going crazy with the winter and everything else. So, you know, the social club played a tremendous role in the survival of Puerto Rican migration into the city of Chicago. 12 �JJ: And what about -- there were other groups too like the, you know, did you know anything about the Puerto Rican Congress? CF: Oh yeah. There were other groups. There were like [El Puerto Ricua?] which won -- which actually was formed by -- JJ: Had you ever gone in there? CF: Yeah, as a matter of fact, I remember the -- well I remember in the ‘60s, they had their building right on Milwaukee, right over the -- right there by the expressway on Milwaukee south of Augusta. Between Augusta and Chicago, there was a little building there, and they -- I mean, I remember because I used to -- you know, [00:20:00] we used to play baseball, used to play baseball against them. I played baseball on one of the little league teams. It was called [El Posto Boricua?]. And it was an army, VA post center, you know, for the army veterans. A lot of the veterans that went to Korea that were veterans. JJ: Puerto Rican veterans? CF: Puerto Rican veterans, right, that went there. As a matter of fact, the organization existed not until a couple of years ago. I don’t think that they’re around anymore, but that was one of the -- and then you had the -- JJ: What did they do? What did they do? You said you went in there? CF: They probably -- you know, I was young, so they probably, you know, did the same thing. You know, did events and activities that promoted and helped Puerto Rican veterans. You know, I mean, I think that was their target, you know, in terms of helping Puerto Rican veterans and providing you know, again, another civic organization to help, you know, the process where Puerto Rican 13 �veterans would get together. Then you had the Puerto Rican Congress, which is another organization [00:21:00] that -- I think they were formed like in 1952 or ’53. And that organization also served the same role. Not the same role as the church, because the Caballeros, you know, it was more of a Christian, religious type of an organization, and they had all these different structures of -JJ: But they were huge. I mean -- CF: Oh, the Caballeros were huge. I mean, these other organizations were, you know, they were more kind of like grassroots organizations where people came in. Now the Puerto Rican Congress, what they did is, I remember they had the one building was on Larrabee and North Avenue. They might have been somewhere else before that, but that was like one of the first places. I used to play baseball with their little league team, and they were a lot into baseball. Now, it’s interesting because, you know, we’re getting ready to do -- there’s an exhibit that’s going to be displayed, I think in April, first, second week -- next week, as a matter of fact -- about the legacy of Roberto Clemente. It’s at the Smithsonian Institute. It’s one of two exhibits that are going to be [00:22:00] presented. It’s a traveling exhibit that they’re going to be presenting in Chicago. And so the Roberto Clemente’s going to be happening within the next week or so, and it’s kind of interesting. I mean, I’m thinking of going to the reception. I hadn’t really decided but, you know, the whole thing about Roberto Clemente not only being a great baseball player, but also, you know, the life lessons that he taught us in terms of being humble, being, you know, a person with a lot of pride, and being very proud of who he was, not only as a Black Puerto Rican, but as a great 14 �human being. So I think that, you know, that’s what we walk away from this life. That’s why he actually was so revered because, you know, the guy even gave his life, you know, going, you know, getting on this plane, and that was kind of like suicide because he would have checked the plane, you know, the guy who actually got Clemente to hire him, you know, had a defective plane. [00:23:00] And the plane, you know, had not been, you know, it’s terrible what happened. He could have avoided from going, from dying. JJ: So basically what happened to the plane? CF: The plane, as soon as they took off, it, you know, and the plane was like -- JJ: It was loaded with what? CF: It was loaded with supplies, you know, because of the -- they had an earthquake in Nicaragua. And Clemente had been there like maybe the year or two before to play baseball in the Pan-American -- not the Pan-American, but [La Serie Caribe?]. He went to play then. He said the people were a little beautiful, so he actually wanted to give back. So he got on this plane, but the plane that -- the whole story is that the guy who actually heard Clemente, you know, trying to look for a plane to take supplies and, you know, he knew he had a defective plane. And so he told Clemente, “Yeah, I can do it. And you can ride with us.” And that plane was loaded up, it was defective, it was like -- so as soon as it took off, it just went down. And they never recovered his body. But [00:24:00] that whole thing of actually learning from him about how you -- I mean, a lot of us learned a lot of things from him. One of the things that I learned in life from him is that -and so a lot of people also because Clemente was also criticized because a lot 15 �of, you know, the American media kind of felt that he was a hypochondriac -what’s the word that I can’t -JJ: Hypochondriac. CF: Hypochondriac, where he was always complaining that he was hurt and stuff. But he used to hate to give interviews because of the language barrier. He couldn’t speak English as well, and so what the media would do is they would actually verbatim repeat what he would say in broken English. And, you know, and kind of like was making fun of him. And he kind of didn’t really care for that kind of stuff. So he actually stayed to himself to a lot. So what happens -- and I can relate to that, because I know that a lot of people -- I hear they think that -[00:25:00] they confuse, you know, your integrity and your self-respect and the way you conduct yourself with being arrogant, you know, and that’s not the case. I mean, even African American ballplayers who would criticize Clemente that he was never, you know, a communicative guy. Well he couldn’t, you know, he couldn’t talk to them. He couldn’t really communicate with them because he had language barriers. But also, this whole thing about this pride and this integrity and the self-respect that you have, a lot of people sometimes confuse that as you being a showoff, or you think that you’re better than anybody else. No, that’s not it. It’s that, you know, you had a certain pride. I mean, one of the things I’ve learned, if I get kicked out of somewhere, I don’t go back. I mean, I learned that from my mama, you know. I take my pride and walk away. You just don’t walk away from -- you know, keep coming back and then slapping in your face. So that was the kind of thing you learned from Clemente, but I was going to go to the 16 �event and actually tell people [00:26:00] that traditionally that’s our sport. You know, Puerto Ricans have always traditionally -- they’re baseball folks. Not in comparison to the Mexican community, which their main sport is soccer, right? So the Clemente thing, I was just going to say that Clemente had a great influence on our baseball thing, but in 1959, we also had the history in Chicago. In 1959, there was a team from the Puerto Rican Congress that won the national championship. A lot of people don’t know about that, but in 1959, there was a team that entered into a tournament in the Park District. They won all the way up the ranks. They won all the things, the state championship, and they ended up representing Chicago in the Midwest, and they played in Dayton, Ohio. I think that they played the championship game with a team from Birmingham, from Alabama somewhere. And they beat them for the national championship. I mean, I hear stories about -JJ: They were from Lincoln Park? CF: [00:27:00] Yeah, some of them were from Lincoln Park, exactly. You had people like [Benny Torres?], [Rigby Lleya?], you know, [Mochito Alves?] was one of the managers on that team. There was, you know, a bunch of guys that were very talented that came out. So you know, obviously that’s [an accomplishment?]. A lot of Puerto Ricans don’t know that. And we had people out here who are now in charge of our history who don’t talk about that kind of stuff, and those kind of things are important to tell folks about. So, you know, and then you had people -because, you know, you had a kid right now. His name, I think, is [Victor Cruz?] or something, who actually played with the Mets. He actually went to Clemente 17 �High School. So there was a product that came out of that. But we also had people like Benny Torres, Rigby Lleya. We had [Ephraim Valentín?] who was one of the Valentín brothers who actually -- who were assigned to a major league contract including this guy [Reynaldo Ramos?], [Bobo’s?] brother, who spent like two years in the minor leagues with the Yankees, [00:28:00] you know, who were like teammates together. So it’s kind of interesting that we’ve contributed to the betterment and growth of the city. You know, so in ’59, here we are, national champions of an amateur baseball tournament that a lot of people really pay no attention. And there are stories about the little second baseman was real short. He’s in the hotel, and there’s this big old white guy who was saying, “Hey, you must be the bat boy.” And so the little Puerto Rican second baseman says, “Okay, I’ll be the bat boy.” So when they’re playing, the guy hits the ball way out there, and he's running the bases, and he’s telling the guy, “I’m the bat boy you were talking about yesterday.” Those are the kind of stories -- because you know [Bob Medina?] also played on that team. And Bob Medina was one of the people that was involved with the politics in the city. He was a campaign manager and so forth. So he was also part of that whole baseball league. So we have a tradition and we have a history of things that we’ve contributed to the growth of the city. JJ: And that was with the [00:29:00] Puerto Rican Congress? CF: Those were the Puerto Rican Congress. So that was just an aspect. And then, you know, the Puerto Rican Congress later got involved with -- because they always worked with the youth. They was always trying to figure out different 18 �ways to channel that energy. And so then they got into the business of music, and they actually formed a music academy, and as a result, some of our top players now came out of that academy and are doing great things musically. Like there’s this guy named Edwin Sanchez who’s actually a piano player. He’s played with La India. He’s actually played piano with the Tito Puente Orchestra. He played with Jimmy Bosch. He’s played with a bunch of -JJ: He actually was married to my daughter, too, (inaudible). CF: Edwin? JJ: Edwin Sanchez, yeah. CF: No kidding. The piano player? JJ: Yeah, he’s the father of my granddaughter, yeah. CF: No shit. Edwin was? JJ: Yeah. CF: Wow. I didn’t know that. Because he’s married -- he got married -- JJ: I’m ending this interview. (laughs) CF: Yeah, because I actually -- he got married again. [00:30:00] I didn’t know that. JJ: Yeah, he got married again. CF: I didn’t know that. JJ: Yeah, Nyla is his daughter. CF: Ah, okay. Yeah, Edwin is one of those guys that came out and, you know, people like Mike Rivera, this kid that just died [Richie Biyo?] was one -- JJ: Yeah, [Damon Rodriguez?] was -- 19 �CF: Right, the [tres?] player, your cousin. Yeah, they were all involved. I mean, I had four of -- so he had came out with a bunch of bands. But a lot of the kids that came out of those groups are actually -- as a matter of fact, there’s this record company that actually just reissued all their albums called [Numero Uno?], the record label. And they actually wrote the whole history. And they actually -- I got into some shit with them, you know, because they were out to make money. It wasn’t a thing of them trying to produce [this thing?]. They all wrote -- make money, and they actually wrote a historical analysis of the whole music scene back in the ‘70s, and I actually criticized them because the actual what they put out was not [00:31:00] really the truth. You know, they were talking about the music of the bands from the Puerto Rican Congress were like the top bands out here and they weren’t. Because, you know, there were like bands even back in the ‘50s, the music bands that were like -- when we were kids, you know, [Un Maquaeño?], [Felipe La Grande Sonora?], there was a whole bunch of groups that were playing. And you know, these were like little kids. And so their sound was okay. It was mediocre, but there was already bands already in place that were playing [some main?] music. But that’s just part of the growth and the development of us living in the city. JJ: Okay, now what about -- were you familiar with some of the dances that St. Michael’s was -- CF: Oh yeah. They used to have -- you know, just to think about that, and it’s kind of interesting that. You know, and I actually asked Jesus Rodriguez about this, how the church would treat us [00:32:00] as parishioners. 20 �JJ: Who is Jesus Rodriguez? CF: Jesus Rodriguez was one of the leaders of the church, of the Catholic church in Chicago. He was [cursillistas?]. We used to have like [cursillos?] which actually were like religious instructions and educational retreats that actually would actually educate people on religious affairs. And so he was one of the [cursillistas?] and was also a leader in the band -- the band -- a leader in the church. And so he was involved in the St. Michael’s church and, you know, it’s kind of almost as close to a priest as possible because what they would do is they would have masses, and the priests were basically not -- they were not Spanish-speaking priests. So the priest would do the mass in Latin or in English, and then Jesus Rodriguez would actually translate, you know, what was being said. But the interesting thing about that is that mostly [00:33:00] all the churches would never allow the Puerto Ricans to have mass in the big church. They would always have us do, you know, trying to treat us like second class citizens. They would always have us have our masses either in the school building next door or in the basement of the school building. Never in the big church. And it wasn’t until years later that -- JJ: At St. Michael’s they -- the Puerto Ricans did not go to the -- CF: The main church. JJ: They had to -- CF: They went to -- they had mass in the building right next door, which is like on the side, remember? Because I used to go there. They said, “Get going.” I sent coffee for free, man. I would go there. I would go to the big church and then 21 �right after that I would go and get some donuts and stuff, and that’s how they -and they used to pack, you know, they used to have two masses. I think one at 10:00 and one at 11:00, you know, to accommodate everybody. JJ: So when you say pack, I mean, how many -- CF: I would say that each mass it was probably about 150, 200 people. [00:34:00] In one setting with the kids, the whole family, because it’s whole families church, you know. It’s the mother, the wife, the father, and the kids. And so they would all go to church. And then they would have the mass, and then they would go down to the basement. But never you would ever have church in the big church. It was never there. And it wasn’t until later, and then they would have, like, major dances at St. Michael’s, and they would have to have them in the gym, the high school gym. And that’s really where we had the dances, and people come out, and they -- JJ: Did a lot of people come out dancing? CF: Yeah, a lot of people came out to the dances. They, you know, had Black bands, and -- JJ: About how many people came out? CF: I would say three or four hundred people. They would come from other concilios just to actually support, you know, whatever fundraising event. So people would, you know, if the Concilio Numero Uno had an event, and you were from this Concilio, you would go there, and that’s how they began to share [00:35:00] with each other in terms of support. So it was kind of like a tight-knit family based on 22 �this religious order, religious influence. So Jesus Rodriguez was one of those people that actually was one of the church leaders. JJ: [And?] helped to organize the -- CF: Yeah, he helped to organize the thing at St. Michael’s, but he was also involved in the archdiocese. They had a committee called the Spanish Speaking Committee, which is actually a part of the archdiocese, and what they would do is that they would train and give training to Puerto Ricans that came. I think they even provided in some cases housing for them to live there -- you know, they were like single men -- to live there. And, you know, just basically helped people make the transition from the island to here in terms of understanding how things function around here. Because a lot of these folks that came from Puerto Rico, man, came straight from the countryside. You know, probably didn’t even live in the city in there, [and from?] the island. So they came straight from the [00:36:00] countryside to this big, major city. And you could imagine, you know, being lost if you didn’t have the right orientation. JJ: Okay, so now this is people that really were not going to the grammar school. They were going to public school, but they were attending the mass, and a lot of the activities in the -- CF: Yeah, because the -- JJ: But what was going on inside -- go ahead. CF: No because, you know, back in -- I mean, I don’t think people really could have afforded to send their kids to Catholic school. The ones that did, you know, because if you look at the average family back in those days, you probably had 23 �families that -- it wasn’t just a boy and a girl. You had five, six, seven. And my situation was the same situation for a lot of people where, you know, your family was like your father and your mother, and you had like maybe four sisters and three brothers, so it was like six, seven, or eight of you. So what the father would do is that he would leave to come to Chicago or wherever it is he was [00:37:00] going to come to the United States because it was basically -- I mean, as far as they went west was Chicago. You know, they’d start out in New York and then they’d start exploring other areas, you know, like Cleveland, Philadelphia, east Chicago, Lorraine, Milwaukee. And so the father would come first, and then he would send for the mother. And once he got settled, he would send for the mother and maybe two or three kids. And then the other kids would stay with their grandparents. I was one of those. Me and my young sisters were raised by my grandparents. And then later, years later, then we actually came. And that was the story of a lot of us that, you know, that the father and the mother could not afford to bring all the kids, so they brought them piecemeal by piecemeal, one or two at a time. And so you had families with a lot of kids. It wasn’t this thing of birth control or controlling population. It was like, you know, they come as they pop. They come as they pop. And so you had large families, so a lot of families [00:38:00] either the kids, what they did as soon as they turned to a certain age that they could work, a lot of them would drop out of school and go work with their father or in the factory distributing. JJ: Were they encouraged to work? 24 �CF: Well I think that they were encouraged to work. You know, I think that -- I don’t know. A lot of people would say, “Well, you know, education’s the way out,” but I think that a lot of -- in terms of people were living in such poverty that every little dollar helped. So as soon as, you know, and so the kid who was already 14-, 15, 16-year-old who came here and went to school. I mean, I have photographs of my sisters being like eight, nine, ten years old, you know, I have a class picture of them. And being in the same classroom were kids that were like 13, 14 years of age. All in the same school. So you know, you’ve got a 13-, 14-year-old, and you’ve got them going to class with kids that are eight, nine, and ten years old, after a while that’s going to frustrate [00:39:00] a young kid. JJ: Why were they -- CF: Because of the fact that there was no bilingual programs, and you actually had all these Latino kids in the same classroom. I don’t know how it was done, but you had kids that were like 13, 14, 15. By the time they got to be 15, 16 years old and they were old enough to work, they would just go work, and the figure, you know, “School ain’t going to do nothing for me. I won’t be able to catch up.” Plus, a lot of these kids also came from the countryside. And you know, that whole thing of orientation of, you know, pursuing education, higher education, I don’t think it was in the minds of a lot of these kids. And their parents did not know what -- many of them didn’t even finish high school. Even grammar school. I know my mom went to school up to the third grade. So yeah, you know, people that were uneducated, who did not know, had no sort of idea, but a lot of the parents did. A lot of the parents pushed for [00:40:00] you know, “My kids are 25 �going to do better.” And they kept pushing, and did all they can to make sure that their kids got an education and went on to high school and on to college and so forth. And so some -- it paid off for some of us. JJ: And what about St. Michael’s? You said you went to St. Michael’s High School. What was the population there? CF: Well St. Michael’s High School when I was there was like -- I was there ’65, ’66. It was, you know, it wasn’t coed. It was boys and girls, and it was really integrated. It was Blacks, whites, you had, you know, the Italians from Taylor Street. You had Puerto Ricans that were coming from, you know, because it wasn’t just kids from the neighborhood. They would come in from different areas. So you had the white kids, you had Italian kids, you had Black kids that came in from Cabrini-Green, and so people who could afford to send their kids there would send them. Because they had a grammar school and they had a high school. And so [00:41:00] it was an integrated setting. JJ: Okay, now going back a little bit during Newberry and that -- because there were -- we talked about the social clubs, but there were also neighborhood clubs, right? At that time. CF: Well the social clubs were the neighborhood clubs. JJ: The social clubs were the neighborhood clubs. CF: Right. That’s what I was talking about. JJ: Didn’t they call them street clubs too? They were -- CF: Well, you know, you probably had these clubs that actually -- JJ: I’m talking about like the Caballeros and the -- 26 �CF: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. You’re talking about the youth clubs. JJ: The youth clubs. CF: Yeah, the clubs that -- JJ: Those were different. CF: Yeah, those were different. Those were like made up of young youngsters -- JJ: And how did they form? How did they -- CF: Well, you know, you actually -- JJ: The Continentals, you were a member of -- CF: Right, right. The Continentals was a group of -- you know, basically it was a group of kids that hung out, you know, they hung out together, and they decided to form their own club. Now, we used to be the Continentals, and we used to hang out at Lincoln Boys Club. And, you know, it was [00:42:00] [Danny Rodriguez?], [Juan Columbus?], kids that hang out together and, you know, so Danny was one of the people that actually formed the Continentals, and it's kind of interesting because, you know, we used to identify each other with these sweaters. Our sweaters was kind of like the American flag. It was red, white, and blue, and we had an emblem, and the emblem meant something for something. So we used to -- it was kind of like an organized kind of thing where we had a youth worker from the Boys Club helping us organize ourselves, pay dues, bring in money, and raise money, buy our sweaters, do events, and so forth. So it’s kind of like a youth social organization. Then you had the YMCA where they had your group, the [Alloys?] were there. Then you had the older guys that -- and you know, I know a lot of people equate these guys with being 27 �gangs, but I used to call them clubs anyway. But then you had the older guys, which were the Black Eagles and the Paragons, and those guys, they formed because [00:43:00] of this thing of protection. They used to get beat up all the time, and they decided to form the groups, and they decided they were not going to take an ass whooping anymore. Because they used to get, you know, it used to be a lot of -- back in those days there was a thing with rumbles and, you know, knives and chains. It wasn’t this thing of automatic rifles and guns, and that’s how you get things done. You drive by and you shoot. Back in the days, none of us had cars. So you couldn’t do no drive-bys. JJ: Yeah, so you said that they were tired, they were not going to take this anymore. CF: Right, you know -- JJ: What were they tired of? CF: Well, you know, I think that there was a lot of conflict, you know, given the fact that we were moving into these communities that were already occupied by already other immigrants that had been here, Irish, Italians, Germans, and we’re coming into those neighborhoods because as we were coming in, a lot of them began to freak out. And they decided to do the white flight. You know, it was either Blacks or Puerto Ricans that were coming in, and they decided to move out. [00:44:00] But even the ones that stayed, actually they always felt that, you know, it’s like every immigrant’s got to shit on the next immigrant that comes over. And so, you know, a lot of these immigrants that, you know, that they went through the same shit that we went through. And even though we were American citizens, we went through the same experiences that a lot of immigrants went 28 �through. Back in those days, Puerto Ricans were being picked up and we were being held as immigrants because they didn’t have any papers. And, you know, we were getting treated the same when people realized and found out, “Well, these are Puerto Ricans. They are American citizens. They don’t need to have papers.” I mean, that’s documented for a fact, that a lot of Puerto Ricans actually experienced that. And they, you know, even though we’re American citizens, we got treated the same way as many of the immigrants are being treated today. So you had these things where, you know, the abuses, and you had -- and yet our parents would take that kind of stuff, and say, you know, “Don’t rock the boat. [00:45:00] We’ve come here to work,” or, you know, humble, quiet people. You know, they had that attitude. They didn’t want any trouble. But I think that the kids, you know, as soon as you became part of the -- and integrated into the society and began to form our little cliques and neighborhoods -JJ: And there were a lot of them. You mentioned several names. CF: Yeah, yeah, there was a lot of them. There were like the Latin Kings started, even though the Latin Kings had become a universal gang, you know, all over the country. But the Latin Kings started here, and they actually started, you know, in Humboldt Park west side. But back in our area, we had the Black Eagles and we had the Paragons. And those guys were kind of like older guys and, you know, we kind of looked up to them. But it was a thing that -- it’s not like today. Today you have this territory, and you had these, like, you know, “You don’t wear my color and I don’t wear yours.” There’s this whole thing about colors and so forth. But back in the days, [00:46:00] the older guys would look out for us, you know? 29 �And we actually couldn’t wait until we could be part of their thing. And so it was kind of like a family nucleus. JJ: So if you were in a different club, would they still would not fight against you? CF: They were not fighting against -- we’re not fighting against each other. I mean, the ones we were fighting against were the aggressive, you know, the white gangs, the Italian gangs. Like back in our neighborhood, we had that place called Roma’s, you know, Roma’s Pizzeria. And a lot of them white boys there, you know, they wanted to whip our asses and stuff, until the same thing that I was mentioning with the gypsies, they came out, and they would kick our asses. And then all of a sudden, we became the majority, and we actually had -- we shut them down. You know, they got shut down, and so -- but there was a lot of conflicts back in those days, so a lot of the guys actually formed these clubs in order to protect themselves. And they were not about to do, you know, like, take a slap in the face and keep on walking. They were just going to confront. And they were young people, you know? And young folks are not going to take that [00:47:00] crap, you know? You get this -- think that you will live forever and no one could ever mess with you, and that kind of a thing. So I think that that’s how that whole thing with the social clubs. Now every social club -- the Black Eagles had -- back in the days, that was the thing, the sweaters, you know? Everyone had a sweater. The Paragons had the sweater. I think that they had the same color you guys had. They were black and purple. And the Young Lords are like black and purple. They were what, black and pink? That was the Paragons? JJ: Yeah. 30 �CF: We had red, blue, and black. The Black Eagles were black and white. JJ: Your colors were what again? CF: Blue, red, and white, just like the American -- yeah, with the stripe. And you know, the sweaters were kind of cool. That was what identified us, when you went to, like, you went to dances and you went to sock hops, we would have our sweaters folded, you know. It was just an interesting kind of a situation which is totally different from -- JJ: But people were not fighting each other. CF: No, ain’t nobody -- nobody was fighting each other. JJ: And you had said, you know, fighting against -- so it was like a [00:48:00] fight against the whites. CF: The whites, the Italians, whoever was kind of messing. And then later on, it just got crazy, man. It just got crazy. You know, the drug thing came about. JJ: So what does that mean? What do you mean, the drug came about? CF: Well you know, I mean, I think that we all noticed it when all of a sudden the country, you know, when things got crazy in the ‘60s in this country, you know, and all of a sudden you just saw a lot of militancy and a lot of radical politics, and everybody was up in arms. And all of a sudden, you began to see this influx of drugs in the community, man. It’s like all of a sudden people started, you know, you started seeing people getting high on heroin. All of a sudden out of nowhere, the heroin was kind of like, you know, and wherever it is, I mean, there’s a lot of theories. JJ: Was there a lot of heroin going around at that time? Or was it just -- 31 �CF: Well, it came about. It came about that in the 19-- mid-’60s, [00:49:00] ’66, ’67, all of a sudden these communities began to see a lot of drugs going into the -- JJ: (inaudible) there’s an epidemic of cocaine, and at that time there was an epidemic of heroin. CF: Yeah, heroin. It was a lot of heroin that was going around. It was cheap. You know, people were doing it. They’re smoking marijuana. There was a lot of alcohol. But a lot of it that I think did the most damage was the heroin. The heroin actually, you know, caught up with a lot of people, and a lot of people just went in and never recovered from it. And so unfortunately, I used heroin at one time, you know, back in the days. And I am not ashamed to say it. But I actually -- I guess I must have some good angels that actually guided me in the right direction because I could have easily become hooked too. But I chose not to go that route. But I know a lot of folks that went that route, and they used -- JJ: Well you also had an education that helped, too. Now you went -- CF: To what? JJ: Through the [00:50:00] St. Michael’s, and then you went and got -- CF: Yeah, yeah. JJ: Then you went to college. CF: Yeah, I did. But you know, but my education -- JJ: In fact, what do you -- you have a master’s degree? CF: Yeah, I got a master’s. But I didn’t use any of that shit. I didn’t use any of my degrees. JJ: But that contributed. 32 �CF: Oh yeah, yeah. I actually, you know, my thing was that I didn’t get up at St. Michael’s was -- JJ: You don’t think it contributed at all? CF: What? JJ: You don’t think that helped you at all? CF: Oh, it helped me. Man, I’ll tell you where it helped me the most. When we were part of the program. I actually went to, you know, like to me, I am actually working on a theme right now. I have a writing -- creative writing group that meets once a week, and we’re working on a theme on freedom right now. And so I wrote a piece as the group leader saying, you know, trying to remember well what is the first time that I really sensed freedom? Because freedom, you know, some people’s freedom are other people’s burden. Because you’ve got someone saying that, you know, I’m going to free this country. I’m going to build a railroad, you know, all the way from here [00:51:00] to the end of San Francisco. But that means that -- who’s going to build that railroad? You’re going to build that railroad, you’re going to make the money, you’re going to exploit the workers, and you’re going to bring in work, and you’re going to give them like ten cents an hour or a nickel an hour. You’re going to exploit them. And they’re going to build the railroad for you. And you’re going to take all this glory. So you have the freedom to do whatever you want to do. You have the freedom to scam and to rip off people. And so I wrote a piece about my first taste of freedom. And my first taste of freedom was going to grammar school and being in the same classroom, you know, throughout the whole day. In the morning, you’d be in the 33 �same. Then when you go to high school, all of a sudden, you go to different classes. You get out and you go to woodshop, you go to gym, and just like being in college. You have that independence. So with me, it was great shit. You know, you get to go outside and go to lunch, woodshop, and then at the rest of the day I would be cutting class with the rest of my homies, you know. Be out there, “Y’all, come on. Let’s go. Let’s go hang out.” [00:52:00] And so that caught up with me. So I got kicked out of Waller High School, out of the public school. So I got another chance, and I went to St. Michael’s, and I also got kicked out of St. Michael’s because I actually told a story about me being a bully. I was a bully. I used to take, you know, all the little white kids, and I would say, you know, “Give me your money or I’ll kick your ass.” So I would take quarters and dimes. I was like the tough guy, you know? And I was a really bully. I mean, I am sure that people see me now -- I mean, I’m just like -- I’m going to be 63 years old. But if people see me now, and they see me on TV doing all the stuff that I do, I’m sure that some of those kids that I actually took their money from when I was in school are saying, “That son of a bitch took my money. He actually bullied my ass,” you know? So I used to bully these kids. And one time, you know, and I used to work. I used to have jobs working at Tom’s Shoe Store, like on weekends, so I was always dressed up really well, and had money. I mean, I always worked as a kid. You know, I worked washing windows or [00:53:00] doing whatever. And I remember one time this kid came to me and says -- I got into a thing with a kid in the classroom, and so I told this kid to pick up, you know, so kick him and he knocked the books over. And I told him to pick it up. “Pick up 34 �my book.” So this other kid who actually happened to be another tough kid who actually happened to probably be in another white gang, told the other kid, you know, “Don’t pick up shit for him.” And so I said, “Oh yeah? I’m going to talk to you later.” So we went out to lunch, and I slapped this kid. And this kid said, “I’m coming back tomorrow and I’m going to shoot your ass,” you know? So I said, “Oh yeah?” So I went and I got all the guys from the neighborhood, Richie, [Bobokin?], all the young kids that, you know, were looking for a fight. I said, “Hey man, this guy said he was going to shoot me. So you guys are going to come down.” (This is a story -- I don’t know if you ever heard it.) So I actually had all these guys come down from the neighborhood. Because back when I was in St. Michael’s High School, this was like ’67, ’66, [00:54:00] they all came, and they all came the next day to the school from Armitage and Halsted and Sheffield, and but the kid never showed up to class. So these guys were ready to fight. So as soon as they let school out, those guys started beating up everybody. They beat up the nuns. They beat up the priests, beat up the students. They just -- anybody would kick their ass. So everybody got whipped that day. And so the next day they brought me into the office and said, you know, “You’re lucky we don’t call the police on you because, you know, what happened here yesterday was pretty bad. And so what we’re going to do is we’re going to expel you. We’re going to kick you out of school.” And that was just another strike against me. And so I was running out of strikes. So then from there, I got an opportunity to go to Argonne National Laboratory. And Argonne National, that’s when we were all there. You and a bunch of us, and it’s kind of interesting 35 �because I was just talking about that this week, yesterday, in that group meeting, in terms of how [00:55:00] it was back in the days, how we were freaking out. Because they used to call us hardcore students. JJ: What was Argonne National Laboratory? CF: Argonne National Laboratory was the national laboratory – (dog barks) hey, stop. It’s in Lamont, and this is where they actually [spotted the Chicago?], part of the atomic – (dog barking) stop! Part of the atomic energy commission. This was like where they split the first atom, and this was a laboratory out in Lamont. And they have an atomic accelerator out there. So what they did is they actually -back in the days, in terms of providing opportunities to minorities, young minority students, they actually set up a program there to help students not only finish their GED but also to get them some kind of skills in terms of learning how to work. Learning to work. JJ: This was for at risk youths. CF: Yeah, for, you know, for at risk -- (dog barks) hey, stop! For, you know, youth that were at risk. [00:56:00] So a lot of us -- we were all at risk. As a matter of fact, they used to call us hardcore students, or hardcore people. You were there. And so what they did is they had all these, like, minority young people going out there. You had members of the Blackstone Rangers, the Disciples. As a matter of fact, the [peace to our nation disciples?] when they were out there, they were in peace. Because you know in Chicago, they were at war with each other. So there were us, you know, and so I know the scientists were going crazy because every time they looked out the window, they saw these, like, you know, young 36 �Blacks and Puerto Ricans with berets and with different color sweaters, and they were trying to figure, “What the hell is going on?” But I actually took advantage of that program, and what I did is I actually signed up to be in the photo department. So at 17 years old in the photo department, they took me under their wings, gave me a camera. You know, I used to wash prints as a job, and then in the afternoon I would take classes for GED. I know [00:57:00] a lot of you guys did a lot of different things. I heard stories about you guys sleeping in closets and shit like that when you were supposed to be working. But you guys were abusing your privilege. But (laughter) you guys were abusing your privilege, but I took advantage of it because I actually had an opportunity to learn the skill of photography. And what I did is they gave me a camera and gave me all this film, and it was like really, really nice folks who were there. JJ: Who was the president or the teacher? CF: Well, you know, the guy who used to run that whole program was Mike Lawson. He used to be the guy who was in charge of making sure that he coordinated -- JJ: And where did he come from, Mike Lawson? CF: Mike, you know, Mike was kind of like a social worker. He was probably involved with the church, and that’s how we met him. You know, he was a youth worker with folks out here. So that’s how you got us all -- JJ: I think you grabbed me [and pulled in?] or something. CF: Who? JJ: You or somebody who was -- 37 �CF: It was Danny, I think. Danny was the one that got all of us in that program. So there was a bunch of us, you know. [00:58:00] I had photographs in that place, you know. I remember [Sexto?] used to be in there. You, myself, Danny, and it was so weird because I know -- I don’t know, there was a couple of times where we missed our rides or our buses and we had to go down to [U Chicago?] and grab the bus there to go there. But sometimes there was this brother there, this African American guy who used to drive. He was not part of our program, but he used to give us a ride. And the guy, you know, like before he’d go, he’d take a couple of swigs of vodka, and he’d be driving on the road, and he’d be late. So he’d be driving on the exit ramp trying to beat the traffic. It was crazy. It was you know, like, being young and, you know, you get into all those adventures and stuff. JJ: But it was while we were trying to get our GEDs. CF: Yeah, we’re all trying to get our GED, and I think it helped me a lot because then what I did is I left that program, and then I turned to junior college, to Central [YMCA?] college, and I actually eventually got my GED. Because I was almost like three months before [00:59:00] grad. When I got kicked out, I was going to be graduating three months later. And right before graduation, I got kicked out. So, you know, I went to [U Central YMCA?], and then from there I transferred to Northern Illinois University. And from there I came back to the city, and I went to UIC. Got a BA, and then I got a master’s, a master’s degree in criminal justice. But I didn’t use any of that stuff. I actually just used the education and I moved on and did other things. 38 �JJ: Now, the Young Lords came out, you know, were like more [to the actual ones?] they were one of the groups in the neighborhood. But then they kind of transformed into a political group. And it was right around that time that they -you know what I’m talking about. CF: Right. Well, you know, back in the time, I mean, as you begin to get older, you begin to get an education, you begin to be exposed to a lot of different things, and you know, this is the time that, you know, we had people like Malcolm X. [01:00:00] We had people who actually were really rocking the boat, you know, and the whole country was in disarray. The hypocrisy of this country was coming out, and it was being put on display. People were just kind of like just reacting, you know. The youth were rebelling against their parents, and they were rebelling against, you know, the status quo. Black people wanted rights. The whole civil rights movement. It was a lot of stuff going on. And so that also touched us, because we were part -- you know, it wasn’t that we were, like, separate. You know, we also had our own issues that we were dealing with, and one of the issues that we were dealing with was this whole issue of being displaced, being in a community that we had lived there for a long time. Because you know what? I mean, I don’t hardly hear this anymore, but the whole phrase of the hood. The hood. That’s the way we used to identify our community. You know, we’re going, “I see you in the hood. I’ll be back.” You don’t see that anymore because I don’t think people really have those ties [01:01:00] with neighborhoods now. Nowadays, you know, it’s like a lot of these neighborhoods are very, you know, people will live -- they live there three or four years, and then 39 �they move on. So there’s never really that relationship that you develop as looking at your community, as being part of your family, part of your home, your house. And that’s the way we looked at our neighborhood. You know, our neighborhood was this kind of neighborhood that, you know, like I said, when we would see people, like, far away, we’re on a [picnic?] you’d say, “Hey, I’ll see you back in the hood. I’ll see you on the block,” you know? And we knew when we were talking about the block, we would be back in the neighborhood. So there was this, like, emotional, spiritual tie to the community. And so -- but it was great. It was a great -- I mean, I really loved growing up in Lincoln Park. It was really, truly integrated, even though the majority of the people, after a while, after the ’62, ’63, ’64, it became more predominantly Puerto Rican. [01:02:00] It was still an integrated community, but the loving thing about it is that it was kind of like a village. And the village was that everybody looked out for everybody. Everybody knew everybody. I remember, you know, if I did something, you know, Luis, the owner of the grocery store, would say, “I’m going to tell your dad.” And shit, when my dad got home, you know, like he’d say, “Come here. Luis told me you did this.” You know, like, “And you better, you know, you’re punished,” or whatever. So it was that kind of a thing where people look out for each other, and, you know, kids would be out there playing. You have all, you know, Adams Playground. You had the People’s Park. You had that little Bauler playground, the little playground down Halsted. It was called the Bauler Playground. You had Arnold Park. So you had all these little, you know, Oscar Meyer, we would hang 40 �out. So you know, there was a lot of baseball, a lot of recreation areas that we could hang out. And it was a great place to live in terms of -JJ: [01:03:00] So you’re painting -- I’m looking at geography now. So you’re talking about the Bauler Playground on Burling and Armitage? CF: Right, Burling and Armitage. JJ: And then the Oscar Meyer playground all the way on Clifton. CF: On Clifton. And then you had the Adams Playground, which is right south of -beyond St. Theresa. JJ: Beyond St. Theresa’s. And then you were talking about the Lincoln Park. CF: Then you had Lincoln Park, which is the bigger park. JJ: So this is a big area that we’re talking about. CF: Oh yeah, it was a big area. JJ: And that’s primarily Puerto Rican at that time. CF: That’s primarily Puerto Rican, and it was even extended all the way up to Wrigley Field, up in, you know, right around -- JJ: Addison. CF: Addison and Halsted and Clark. And so, you know, Lakeview, Addison [Bill?], which is called Addison [Bill?] today, was up, even up in that area. So, you know, Puerto Ricans had expanded in all these areas, and so, you know, it was really great. You know, at times you felt like this was your neighborhood, [01:04:00] and this is the way you ran, and then all of a sudden -- JJ: So you mean like the north side of Chicago. CF: Right. 41 �JJ: The north. CF: It was kind of like the mid-north of Chicago, and then, you know, all of a sudden lo and behold, there was a lot of things that were going on where the city was doing all this planning. You know, we’re definitely, you know, this would probably be in the era of the Black Panther party. This is part of the radical politics. And, you know, and then we’re beginning to see the consequences that were taking place as a result of realtors and developers and speculators coming in and buying up property, raising the rent, moving people out. And after a while, you know, we began to see that this is the plan. There was a plan of moving people out, and this is how the whole thing with the Young Lords came about. JJ: And so you also became active within the Young Lords. CF: Yeah, I became active. JJ: So a lot of the different groups, also -- CF: Yeah, but I -- JJ: Because that was the whole community. CF: Right. But I was already, you know, [01:05:00] in order to -- to be part of the Young Lords is the thing, because I know that you probably had to talk some of the guys into it. Because a lot of the guys were, you know, they had to be educated. A lot of the guys did not have the discipline -- did not have the discipline of knowing, you know, what this is all about. All they know is like, “Hey, who’s fucking with us? Let’s go kick their ass.” JJ: Exactly. 42 �CF: That’s how, you know, I would describe it. I would describe these guys, and they were not -- I mean, I was already had begun to, you know, by the fact that I was going to college, I had begun to get exposed to a lot of these, like, writers and philosophers and activists and all kinds of different politics. It was a really easy transition for me to get in. So, you know, I jumped on board. Actually -- JJ: Well you were saying that for the other people, it was more they were just there because they had been in the Young Lords. CF: They had been in the Young Lord gang -- JJ: And they were kind of following -- CF: The Young Lord Club, not the gang. The club. JJ: Oh yeah, the club. And then [01:06:00] so they’re following the club structure. CF: Exactly. JJ: And then that’s why they were able to stay involved through the construction, but we also had other Young Lords that were already politicized. CF: Right, right. You had some that were politicized (audio cuts out) those get to the other guys. Not everybody got it, because not everybody actually fell in the cliques. A lot of people said, “You guys are crazy. You know, they’re nuts. Let me just go back and hit my pipe, and I’ll be happy, you know, with what I’m doing.” But I think that a lot of folks actually decided to jump on board, and then there was other people that came and jumped on board because of the fact that they couldn’t believe what the hell we were doing. I mean, they couldn’t believe that, you know, even the -- I mean, when you read this history, you know, you had [penal elements?] coming from New York that actually are individuals that 43 �already, you know, college graduate or attending college or who had a totally different experience because the Puerto Rican experience in New York [01:07:00] is a longer experience because they began coming there at the turn of the century. And all of a sudden, you know, you keep hearing about these guys, the Young Lords. They’re taking over churches. They’re doing all this fighting and politicizing. And so, you know, a lot of people took notice. And so you began to attract people also that were involved in radical politics who also came and joined the group. JJ: What were some of the things that the Young Lords did there that -- CF: Well some of the things that the Young Lords did there -- well I remember, you know, they’re taking over this church because before the church was taken over, I used to work in the church. I used to be -- there used to be a program called the Joint Youth Development Corporation, and that was run by the city. And at the church, at the Armitage Methodist Church, [Mochito Alvez?] was kind of like the assistant director, so we had a little center there. And I used to run the recreational center, the gym, and [01:08:00] I had all these kids playing basketball. And so I was already involved and doing social programming, you know, in terms of athletics. And so I was young myself, and so I guess I got hired because I used to play baseball with Mochito, and he got me the job. And so that was in college. So but then the transition came where -- and I remember the reverends that were there. It was kind of interesting. They had a reverend who was Cuban. His name was Herrera I think. JJ: Sergio. 44 �CF: Sergio. Sergio Herrera. And it’s kind of interesting because his dad -- they were Cubans. They were Cuban immigrants that came, and they actually fled the whole thing that happened in Cuba with Castro. And I remember one year -- this was before the Young Lords. This was a story that there was this white guy who also got hired to -- JJ: You mean before the Young Lords were political. CF: Right, right, right. Before the Young Lords even took over this church. So we had this guy who was crazy. It was some white guy that actually [01:09:00] came in. He was an instructor. And I guess he was actually teaching kids about expression. So he actually told people, “I want you to go up to people, and when you go up in front of them, just start screaming. You know, ahh. You know.” So they went and did that to Sergio’s father, and I thought the old man was going to have a heart attack, you know? Because they all went and started going like that to the old man. But it was just kind of interesting the kind of events that were going there. It was just purely social, you know. I used to, like, have the kids play basketball. You know, I used to get films about baseball. So there was nothing really political, nothing out of the ordinary. Just like, you know, being another boy’s club, another YMCA. But then the Young Lords came and they took over. And I remember the painting of the murals. That was like very interesting because it was the first time that, you know, we changed some murals on the wall that represented revolutionary figures. [01:10:00] You know, you had Adelita, who was a Mexican revolutionary. You had Pancho Zapata, who was another one. You had Emeterio Betances, Albizu Campos, and Lolita Lebron 45 �who were like, you know, revolutionary symbols. And then the biggest symbol was when you entered the side door, you had a big picture of Che Guevara. And at the time the Che Guevara picture was painted on the wall, the Herreras were still living in that church. They were living there. And I know they freaked out. Because they left Cuba running away from, you know, from this Communist tyrant, supposedly the enemy of the people, and all of a sudden, you know, here they’re back facing, you know, the same situation. But some of the programs that were actually being offered at that church were like health programs. You know, there was a health clinic that was provided because at the time, you know, a lot of the folks, even though you had the Cook County Hospital, [01:11:00] there was really not a lot of health programs out there. You know, infant mortality was probably at a very high risk. So we were providing people at least with a basic examination, a basic –- yeah. JJ: If you can hold that thought for one second, the health program. Okay, I just did want to ask you about [Samuel Herrera?]. Because yeah, I believe he was transferred later to Los Angeles or something like that. But so there was a Cuban congregation, you were saying, also? CF: I don’t even know what the congregation was, because I never went to the church. JJ: But he was Cuban, and he had just -- and he fled Fidel Castro. CF: Right. He fled. JJ: Now, did he ever talk about that? 46 �CF: Nah, he never really -- he never really got into discussion with him. He was a very mild-mannered guy. He, you know, and I don’t think he really wanted to rock the boat either. Because I don’t think he ever got into confrontation with any of us. So he never really rocked the boat. He came out of that whole Methodist church thing. And again, he was also working with the late Bruce Johnson [01:12:00] back in the day. So I know -- I don’t know what kind of relationship they had. I know that he was very mild-mannered with me, and so we talked, but we never really talked politics. But I did know that his parents and himself came out of Cuba. And I think he probably had already been here, because he already spoke English. But his parents had just probably had just left Cuba because of the fact that, you know, what was going on there. JJ: Were there a lot of Cubans in that area? CF: I don’t know -- no, there was not a lot of Cubans in that area. No, there was not a lot of Cubans in that area. It was mostly Puerto Ricans and Mexicans. But mostly Puerto Ricans. Cubans were, you know, not that many. And I don’t even know what the congregation was because I never went to church there. JJ: Getting back, okay, you were talking about the health program? CF: Yeah, you know, one of the programs that we established was a health clinic, and so basically you had some interns that were at the County Hospital, some coalitions were made, [01:13:00] and so they were coming in. They were providing at least basic examination. If they needed to make a referral to the hospital, they would do that. And so that was one of the services that were being provided that was not being provided anywhere. Because the only way people 47 �would even have any access to health is if they went to a private doctor or they went to the hospital. And in some cases, if they had no insurance, you know. So they would end up going to the county, or unless they got real sick, that’s the only way they would go to a doctor. But it was none of this stuff to do any prevention, you know, health prevention. I think that we began that whole process of trying to get people to start understanding that, you know, health is an issue that we should be afforded in terms of the people. You know, because without health, you know, you really have nothing when you’re sick. So that was one of the issues that -- one of the programs that came out of that. JJ: And how much did the people have to pay to -- CF: As far as I remember, it was nothing, [01:14:00] and it was real interesting because what they did is they turned the -- they turned some of the little rooms, they turned into like examination rooms. Like up in the office, there was one examination room. There was another examination room downstairs. And so basically, that’s how people came in. They came in whenever, you know, the clinic was open. People would come in, and they’d bring their kids. Their kids were checked, and if they needed any additional treatment, then they would be referred to the county or to another clinic or to a doctor. But it was bringing that basic health facilities to people in the community, which was unheard of because in the past, you probably would have to go to the clinic or go to a doctor, or you didn’t know how you were going. So that was one of the programs. The other program was this breakfast program. It was short lived. I used to run that program. And that program was actually adopted after the Panthers breakfast 48 �program. And we actually would get up in the morning. I had my sisters [01:15:00] be part of that program. We actually ended up cooking pancakes, and we actually, you know, had maybe about 14, 15, 16 kids that would come in before school. And we would feed them, and then we would actually not -- we would not give them any heavy dosage political classes. We would just do things like, for example, I would bring a map, and I would ask them, “Where in Puerto Rico is your family from?” “Oh, from Arecibo.” “Go up to the map and show us where Arecibo is.” You know, just real basic stuff in terms of creating conscious in terms of who they were as Puerto Ricans, right? And so that was that. The other thing that we also -JJ: I remember we would have crossing guards and all that. CF: The what? JJ: Crossing guards for the kids. CF: Well there was a crossing guard because the kids would stop in right before school. So they would be there like around 7:30. JJ: So the Young Lords would be the crossing guards. CF: We would be crossing -- make sure the kids got to the school because [01:16:00] they would have to go to either Arnold, or they would go to the other grammar schools in the area. So they would come in and get their breakfast. Then the other program was there was this relationship with the [people at the law office?] which actually opened at the same time. And so you would actually -- when everyone had a legal case, you would also refer them to the law clinic. So you 49 �know, there were some services that were being provided to folks in that community. JJ: And who was funding the Young Lords at that time? CF: Funding the Young Lords? Shit. You know, to be honest, that’s a good question. I think they were just getting funding from grassroots people. You know, we’re not getting -- there was no government funding. It was no, you know, no philanthropists were giving us, no foundations were giving us money. It was money that was coming in. I remember one time that we actually got donations because I mean, I still -- I think I still probably have letters [just towards?] the end of the Young Lords, [01:17:00] we actually were asking for donations of food. And I remember one time there was a company that brought in thousands, you know, a bunch of boxes of cereals, man. I don’t know if you remember that. And we had to get rid of that cereal because the rats were breaking into the boxes. And we had to start giving the cereals away. But we were getting like donations from stores, and dollars. And one time I even, you know, was the treasurer of the organization, holding onto all the money. Because what happened was that after a while, you know, our organization -- JJ: You’re the one that took the money, there? CF: I was the one that took the money, but I had to fight with a lot of you guys because everybody wanted money. So my thing was that after a while, things began to get a little shady because of all the repression that was coming down, and all the people getting arrested. JJ: What kind of repression? What do you mean? 50 �CF: Police aggression, you know. We were actually always being watched. It was always police cars parked. They were always taking notes. They were always watching. There was a lot of, [01:18:00] you know, confrontations with the police, and so what happened, every time that someone got arrested, we would have to go out there and try to get money to bail folks out of prison. That was the one way of how they neutralized the whole organization by actually continuing to have confrontation, arresting people, and, you know, having people arrested. And what happened to the point where a lot of people went underground, and I think you were one of those folks, is that you never, you know, kept your court dates. And so actually what they did is they issued fugitive arrest warrants for you guys for not showing up. And so you guys had to go underground, and that’s how the whole organization got neutralized and it got put out through that process. And you know, so you actually analyze all that, that how do you actually eliminate an organization is that you keep arresting the leadership and you neutralize the leadership, and the whole organization -- cut the head, and the rest of the organization just dies. [01:19:00] And so that’s what happened back in the days. You know, there was confrontations with the police all the time, you know. Even though, I mean, I heard stories about people throwing like, you know, we used to fight with water balloons. I mean, people on top of the church throwing water balloons at the cops. Somebody told me a story that they remember. I think when the church was taken over, they were throwing water balloons at the cops from the church. JJ: I don’t remember that. 51 �CF: Somebody told me that. They had some videos on that. But I never -- they never materialized. But those were some of the issues that -- the other interesting thing about this is that you had, you know, there was this whole movement of like there was the political representation, the aldermen and all the other folks that were in the city, who were actually demonizing us. You know, they actually -- I mean, because that’s another tactic of, you know, you’re either [01:20:00] with us, or you’re against us. And so if you’re against us, then we have to, like, demonize you. We have to make you look like you’re terrible people, that you’re going to cause harm to us, you’re going to cause harm to our neighborhood, our society. So there, you know, was all this fearmongering, or mongers going out and creating fear within the neighborhood. You know, like the aldermen, you know, was actually trying to pass ordinance trying to make sure that more repression or more laws or rules be placed against us because of, you know, like loitering rules and loitering laws. Because they kept saying that we were criminals. But in reality, how can you be a criminal? We are kids that grew up in their neighborhood. The people that live in their neighborhood are our families. So how is that family going to be afraid of us? Which was a key thing. That’s what backfired on them. So they could have actually continued this campaign of trying to discredit us, but, you know, we were part of that neighborhood. You know, people would know who we were. [01:21:00] It wasn’t like we just, you know, came from another planet and planted ourselves in that community to try to make changes. We were a part of growing up, and growing up in a community, and actually reacting to some of the consequences that were 52 �going on. And that was that whole gentrification and displacement process that began to happen. And that’s how, you know, you begin to get politicized with how the organization begins. And I think you started this thing when we came out of prison, and got this education, and then you tried to get everybody else on board. So that was the lesson to be learned. It was a short-lived lesson, but again, it was a life lesson. You know, and my life lesson is I tell people, “There’s nothing you can’t do if you were to put your mind to it,” you know? And you know, when I go out and I talk to young people, I mean, you know, you try to give kids an inspiration about what we did back in the days. Because nowadays, you know, [01:22:00] you’ve got all these organizations, and you’ve got all these groups, and there’s also things that you can fall back on, you know, so you’re not out there by yourself. I mean, we were out there. It was just us. And it wasn’t, you know, we were really faced with danger. I mean, some of our people were killed. It wasn’t a game. You know, the cops were serious. They was, you know, like the mayor, the order was shoot to kill. They were shooting to kill. You know, and they were not, you know, the majority of the police department were mostly whites. And they used to practice, you know, the tactics that were like very oppressive. They would pick up, you know, some of our guys and would actually drop them off in neighborhoods where the white gangs were. You know, they were doing this stuff all the time. And you know, I get it. That was making a comment with people, you know, needing to learn and to know about their history. A lot of these police officers and firemen that we had in the city department -- as a matter of fact, the new fire chief that just got appointed 53 �[01:23:00] fire chief in Chicago, he’s this Puerto Rican guy that’s been on the force for a long time. But, you know, back in the days, there were no Puerto Ricans. You know, hardly any Blacks in the fire department and the police department. They even had an age requirement, a height requirement, that to be a policeman you had to be a certain height. That was discriminatory because height has nothing to do with whether or not you can do the job or not. And it was just another obstacle from keeping us, in terms of being involved in the process, because if you look at a lot of Puerto Ricans and Latinos, we’re not tall. We’re short people. And so that whole requirement was fought, and it was fought hard. And people went to prison. People, you know, shed their blood. People shed their lives so we could open some doors to let folks like the guys that are on the police department and the fire department today. So a lot of these guys think that because they’re named Rodriguez and they’re good looking and they got a job on their own [01:24:00] they don’t understand that people fought for them to have their jobs, and they need to take that into account and appreciate what was being done back as a result of our movement, of our struggles, to open the doors for them. So. JJ: Okay. Later on, you were also involved with the whole question of AfroCaribbean, Puerto Rican -- CF: Yeah. I did. I mean, I think that the, you know, I wanted to -- JJ: And what are the other things -- CF: Yeah, well, you know, I went to school to -- I went to UIC -- JJ: (inaudible) 54 �CF: I went to UIC and I got a master’s, and I was out there, you know, trying to figure out what was the best for me. I even went to law school for like a year and a half at DePaul. That didn’t work out. I went and got a master’s in criminal justice. That didn’t work out. But I had already been to school, man. [01:25:00] I had already been exposed to that whole political process, that whole thing of radical politics and being involved, and being a radical myself. And so that drove me to who I am today in terms of dedicating my life to making sure that you fight discrimination, you fight exclusion, you fight all the oppression and all the things that keep people back. So, you know, throughout my whole career, I mean, I actually -- when I went to UIC, I actually got arrested with a bunch of folks, like 40 of us got arrested because we took over the president’s office. This is like right after the Young Lords. I had already started going to college, and I remember going -- me and [Scott Lopez?], [Rory Guerra?], [Rudy Lozano?], [Danny Solizo?], the aldermen, [01:26:00] got [Roberto Torres?], there was a bunch of us, like 40 of us. We went to meet with the president of the U of I, and we decided we ain’t going nowhere until we get a commitment from you that you’re going to, you know, recruit more Latinos in the school. Because we were there, but we wanted to make sure that when we left that there would be more people behind us. Because that was the whole thought process, you know? We tear the doors down, and we keep the doors open. And so the whole concept behind that whole boycott, that was I think in 1973 that we got arrested, was to make sure that the school would actually have a program that would recruit other Latinos. As a result of that, there’s a program called LARES, which is called the 55 �Latin American Recruitment Education Program at U of I. And it’s been there. It came out as a result of that struggle. So, you know, our actions have resulted in some positive things. So it wasn’t all done in vain. So everywhere I went, you know, I actually got involved. [01:27:00] You know, when I was in law school, we had a thing called the Latino Law Student Association, doing the same thing again. You know, we’re here, but if we make it fine, but we’ve got to keep that door open. And the doors have been maintained open. At least they tried to close it, but we actually had a little crack that, you know, it’s not closed all the way. And so I think a lot of, you know, a lot of people, a lot of people that went to law school, a lot of people that got degrees should understand that at one time, there was a lot of racism and discrimination that wouldn’t allow for them to go, you know, to go to school and to take advantage of those educational opportunities that are out there. So I kind of want to feel that I’m one of those that have, you know, that have contributed to making sure that these institutions, you know, have taken place. Like institutions like ASPIRA and [01:28:00] other groups that actually flourished afterwards. So it has, you know, it has been a thing, you know, where either I have actually got involved with the -- I went to work for the Equal Opportunity Employment Commission after I went to -- got out of college. And there, I fought, you know, we were fighting employment discrimination under Title 7, and so I actually went into government (audio cuts out) [us to get?], to fight racism under employment discrimination. And that was - and I did about ten years of that, but I was always involved with stuff that I was learning. I would always come back to the community and say, “We could do 56 �this. We could do that.” Got involved, during the time I was working with the commission, got involved in the Harold Washington campaign, which is an interesting, interesting thing. I mean, I was like -- I mean that was kind of like the highlight of this whole issue where we actually just turned this whole city upside down and created history by electing the first Black mayor of the city. And that was a hell of an experience of [01:29:00] being with that. And I remember when Harold got elected, when he won the primary, it was like -- it was an interesting thing because I remember working out of an office on Kinzie. Francisco DuPrey was there, [Antonio Delgado?], it was a bunch of us, and I remember everybody left the office the night of the primary, and you know, Jane Byrne had some gangbangers working, you know, with this guy [Correa?], and, you know, had some folks. And you know, I thought we were going to get shot one time, you know, because it was me and about three or four of us left. Everybody had gone to the primary party down at the McCormick, and these guys walked in. And you know, for a moment they got really scared that, you know, that these guys were going to retaliate. But -- because that, you know, they looked at it from the point of view of, you know, it’s us against them. You know, they didn’t see it as a political thing. It’s like, “Our guy lost, and now we’re going to shoot you.” You know, that kind of a thing. [01:30:00] So -- but that in itself was an interesting -- I mean, it was like the euphoria that was in the air, I’ve never seen it, you know, people in the street hugging, and people that didn’t know each other. I mean, it was really a sense of a great victory that actually came down. And as a result, we began to take advantage of it, you know. I know you gave one of your 57 �speeches. I remember seeing you up there at the Puerto Rican parade on the Harold Washington -JJ: I introduced Harold -- CF: Yeah, when you came and you gave an address, and you were talking about the Sandinistas, and I was saying, “Shit.” You know, I tried to, you know, we’re like talking, you know, this is a community festival, and he’s over there talking about oppression and the Sandinistas, and it’s because that was, you know, the time the Sandinistas were also there. So yeah, that was kind of -- JJ: You were in the audience? CF: I was in the audience, because that was -- I was in the audience, and I was like -- JJ: How was that? I mean, how was that -- CF: Oh no, it was well received. You know, it was well received. The whole thing with Harold being there. JJ: And everybody was wearing buttons, the Young Lords. CF: [01:31:00] Everybody was wearing the Young Lords button. I remember that Willie Colon or Tito Puente was the guy -- JJ: Willie Colon. CF: It was Willie Colon that was actually presented there, and so it was a hell of a thing. But we actually began to get involved. We got involved on, you know, I became a member of the Latino Commission. Through that, we began doing all kinds of different hearings. We got this whole program on infant mortality in the community. We began, you know, challenging resources into our community. We began to open doors for people to get into the political process, where people 58 �today, you know, are now congresspeople. They’re aldermen. One guy, he used to be the head of the commission just finished running for mayor in Chicago after being a state senator. So there was a bunch of us that actually took advantage, who had been involved in this whole struggle that actually became involved and just took it to another level and began to start heading departments [01:32:00] and getting involved in terms of creating things in the community, you know, like the Humbolt Park Vocational Center became one of those things that you actually brought to the community. So we began to actually open doors so people could begin to start taking, participating in the process. But that all comes from that Young Lords experience, that beginning way back then. So. JJ: Any final thoughts? Anything you want to -- CF: I don’t know what else the hell I could say, man. Besides the fact that I’m still fighting out here. You know, like, you know, because at this time I tell people, “Man, I should be right now, I just turned 63. I should be somewhere in a rocking chair, you know, drinking like coconut water out of a coconut.” But shit, the struggles continues, man. There’s always -- there’s never -- you know, not only you have to fight, you know, the other forces, but now, you know, my biggest force or now my biggest enemy is my own people. Because now you’ve got a bunch of folks [01:33:00] that are now they have the name of [Miguel Juan?] and [Rosario?] and they’re like the worst because what they did is they learned -they get elected, and then they go on and they learn to become politicians. And all they do is they only look out for their own selves or their own hidden agendas. And so the [dumb folks?], in a way, have kind of created an obstacle, even 59 �though they do talk about that they’re there for the people. They’re there for themselves, and they’re there for their bosses, you know, the political bosses. And so they take orders, marching orders, from the folks. And so, you know, unfortunately, you know, back in the days in this community, when we had politicians by the name of Pucinski, [Holowishka?], and I think I made this comment before, we had a community. All of a sudden, you know, we actually elect people by the name of Juan, Maria, and José, and our community is gone. You know, we’ve been displaced. Everything has been totally, been gentrified. You know, even today, [01:34:00] in the year 2012, the community I live right now, I’m probably the last of the Mohicans living on my block. This used to be all Puerto Rican in [Lincoln?] Park. And the same thing with Humboldt Park. That’s gone. You know, just about. Puerto Ricans have scattered all over the city and gone back to the suburbs. They’ve gone back to other neighborhoods. So the whole process of gentrification still goes on. I just don’t think that you have that kind of a movement that we had back in the days -- at least a movement that unifies everybody for the same cause. You’ve got folks out here that are running organizations, that are actually projecting and focusing on their own hidden agendas. You’ve got political figures out here who take orders from the Democratic organization who are sometimes probably our own worst enemies. And you’ve got folks that actually are cutting deals and doing things for themselves, and not, you know -- so the community has grown [01:35:00] really, really fast. But I don’t think that you have the same kind of issues back in the day. I’m still getting with issues. I mean, my latest issue has been this issue of 60 �given the fact that one out of every four Latino is someone of African descent, you know, my thing has always been -- and I’ve been fighting this for the last two decades -- is, you know, we always talk about, “Well, no, in my country there’s no discrimination. We all get along.” You know, it’s like -- but if you really look at it, you know, Black folks, Afro-Latinos, people of African descent that are Latinos had been ignored and had been treated like invisible people when we’ve been here all along from day one. We built this damn country. We built the infrastructure. And they got free labor not only here in this country but everywhere. In Mexico, everywhere. They brought all these Black folks to come in because of the fact that the Indians couldn’t cut it, so they had to bring in some labor to, you know, dig up not only [01:36:00] the sugar and the stuff. They were looking for that gold. So they actually brought in some heavy folks. So you know all this time they’ve been treating us as we don’t exist and that we haven’t contributed to anything. But we’ve done, and we made a lot of contributions, and so my biggest fight right now is in trying to get people to acknowledge those contributions and to begin to treat us with the respect that we deserve to be treated like, as Black people. And so, you know, one of the things that really bothers me is this whole image of what a Latino looks like. When you look at the media, and I get sick and tired of looking at the damn TV because every time you look at Spanish TV, even the American commercials, and they portray a Latino, we all look the same. We all look like you, Cha-Cha. We need, you know, real Black people. Like you look like a white boy. You look like a -- you look like a white boy. You know, all these, like, white-looking people. There’s no one ever 61 �that looks like me on TV unless you look at a reality show. Then you begin [01:37:00] to see. JJ: My mother told me I was going to be a lawyer. Okay. CF: Yeah, okay. Yeah. Well -- but that’s one of the biggest things right now. So that’s actually taken a lot -- gotten a lot of steam, and I go around and I talk to people, and I, you know, people, you know, all of a sudden, you know, you’ve got people talking about the relationship between African Americans and Latinos. Well hell, their relationship has always existed. Ain’t nothing new. You know, if you really, really, really -- you know, even the whole issue of Marcus Garvey and Arturo Alfonso Schomburg back in the mid -- the last century, you had all these relationships that existed between Latinos and African Americans, and so we just have to explore and look at our history, and basically that’s what we did. But I’m done, bro. JJ: I appreciate it. END OF VIDEO FILE 62 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ceae7017cfbea99f450ab72b953d1483.mp4 2ed86ff96f452dc475ba5cc13e822a39 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Carlos Flores vídeo entrevista y biografía Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puertorriqueños--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Chicago (Ill.)--Política y gobierno--1951- Artes, Puertorriqueños--Illinois--Chicago Renovación urbana--Illinois--Chicago Relaciones raciales Puertorriqueños--Illinois--Chicago--Condiciones sociales Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Flores_Carlos Title A name given to the resource Carlos Flores video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Flores, Carlos Description An account of the resource Carlos Flores is a cultural activist who lived at La Salle and Superior in the La Clark barrio, growing up on Armitage Avenue. He takes pride in relating that his family was “the last of the Puerto Ricans to leave Lincoln Park” and recalls life in Lincoln Park which included his share of minor street battles as a teen member of the Continentals Social Club. Mr. Flores also fought for Puerto Ricans as a full fledged member of the Young Lords. Mr. Flores served on the Chicago Mayor’s Advisory Council on Latino Affairs, under Harold Washington. This council was first set up in 1983 by the Young Lords and four other Latino representative organizations city-wide soon after Harold Washington was elected the first African American mayor in Chicago history. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puerto Ricans--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Chicago (Ill.)--Politics and government--1951- Arts, Puerto Rican--Illinois--Chicago Urban renewal--Illinois--Chicago Race relations Puerto Ricans--Illinois--Chicago--Social conditions Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-03-29 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5cc5dcf07eea2c8d0d2d9605b964b099.pdf af2e90ef5e97d2c62a49c54b3bfef0fe PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Dimas Rodríguez Flores Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 6/21/2012 Biography and Description Dimas Rodríguez Flores grew up since the 1930s in Barrio San Salvador of Caguas, Puerto Rico and continues to live there in the Lao Frío side of the barrio. He is a twin brother with Encarnación Rodríguez Flores who lives in Barrio Espino on the other side of Monte Peluche, a tall mountain peak that never has snow on it and is visible to all of of San Salvador and most parts of El Espino of San Lorenzo. They have another eleven siblings, including their youngest sister, Eugenia Rodríguez Flores. Although Mr. Rodríguez has always lived in Puerto Rico, like many Puerto Ricans his life is connected to cities across the United States mainland through family. Many of his children live in the United States: Ramon is a teacher and lived for many years in Aurora, Illinois. Juan worked with Teo Arroyo to bring the first Puerto Rican parade to Aurora. Pablo is currently a Catholic priest. A veteran of World War II, Mr. Rodríguez loves to play his cuatro and is well educated, constantly reading. He is a devout Catholic and in his early years collaborated with the Hermanos Cheo, or Brothers Joe, an organization of lay preachers who sought to preserve Catholicism on the island at a time when there were few Puerto Rican priests. The Hermanos Cheo also got families to cooperate with each other during the Great Depression and World War II. Mr. Rodríguez has remained a recognized leader of the Catholic capilla of San Salvador throughout this life. At one time in the 1960s he was deeply involved in the Acción Cristiana Political Party, but he later rejected that affiliation because, “the church has to remain separate from the politics �of the state.” Mr. Rodríguez explains that he was for Puerto Rican independence but rejected the politics of Don Pedro Albizu Campos because, “it was violent and scared people.” Mr. Rodríguez reveals that he too was being watched and harassed during the 1950s by government agents, just for wanting independence. Repression was then going on all over the island, as the Nationalist Party was making their revolution. Today, Mr. Rodríguez is retired, enjoys his parakeets, and cooking his vegetables and eating the fruits of his land. � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a9657789052bdeb209545171091cfddc.mp4 98a7492246b0d6f0c9a5a82e6257caa2 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Dimas Rodríguez Flores vídeo entrevista y biografía Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puertorriqueños--Relatos personales Idioma español--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Puerto Rico--Autonomía y movimientos independentistas Puertorriqueños--Vida social y costumbres Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Flores_Dimas Title A name given to the resource Dimas Rodríguez Flores video interview and biography Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Flores, Dimas Description An account of the resource Dimas Rodríguez Flores grew up since the 1930s in Barrio San Salvador of Caguas, Puerto Rico and continues to live there in the Lao Frío side of the barrio. He is a twin brother with Encarnación Rodríguez Flores. They have another eleven siblings, including their youngest sister, Eugenia Rodríguez Flores. Although Mr. Rodríguez has always lived in Puerto Rico, like many Puerto Ricans his life is connected to cities across the United States mainland through family; many of his children live in the United States. A veteran of World War II, Mr. Rodríguez is now retired. He enjoys his parakeets, cooking his vegetables, and eating the fruits of his land. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puerto Ricans--Personal narratives Spanish language--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Puerto Rico--Autonomy and independence movements Puerto Ricans--Social life and customs Language A language of the resource spa Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-06-21 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3c142aed6623ef9f58d6b5ef728e3b61.pdf 3e9454874b3732d9114bfe2d5081f19d PDF Text Text � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Civil War and Slavery Collection Subject The topic of the resource United States--History--Civil War, 1861-1865 Slavery--United States African Americans United States--Politics and government--19th century Description An account of the resource A selection of correspondence, diaries, official documents, photographs related to the American Civil War and to the institution of slavery, collected by Harvey E. Lemmen. The collection includes a selection of documents from ten states related to the ownership of slaves and abolition, correspondence and documents of soldiers who fought in the war and from family members and officials, diaries and letters of individuals, and a collection of mailing envelopes decorated with patriotic imagery. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lemmen, Harvey E. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/472">Civil War and Slavery Collection (RHC-45)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/470">John Bennitt Diaries and Correspondence (RHC-43)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/471">Nathan Sargent Papers (RHC-44)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/478">Theodore Peticolas Diary (RHC-51)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/476">Civil War Patriotic Envelopes Collection (RHC-51)<br /></a><a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/479">Whitely Read Diary (RHC-52)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1804-1897 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg; application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Image; Text Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1804-1897 Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-45_CW1-4374 Title A name given to the resource Receipt from William Florville for services rendered Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Florville, William, approximately 1806-1868 Subject The topic of the resource Florville, William, approximately 1806-1868 Lincoln, Abraham, 1809-1865 African Americans Haitians Springfield (Ill.) Description An account of the resource Receipt from William Florville (Billy the Barber), for money received from the estate of E.S. Rohly for services rendered. Florville was Abraham Lincoln's African American barber in Springfield, Ill. Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/NoC-US/1.0/?language=en">No Copyright - United States</a> Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Civil War and slavery collection (RHC-45): http://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/472 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/01c4bcf64db203d9ac063fb8e510db85.mp4 0fda8ad4e2baa2033ed4a63243d09637 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/89eb8a14c2231b51662158b839653718.pdf ea2a3f43be6646caacbbd6fa576aac5d PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Notes Length: 24:00 Jack Henry Flory Vietnam War Veteran United States Army: 1968 to 1970 4th Infantry Div. (00:49) Pre-enlistment: • He went to Michigan State University where he graduated and soon after was drafted • Parents were not surprised by his enlistment, but a little worried • He felt it was something he had to do (1:23) Enlistment/Training: • After physical he was sent to Kentucky for basic training (8 weeks long) • Flew down to Ft.Sill, Oklahoma for artillery training • Learned to use 105mm Howitzer (range 11 miles) (2:54) Vietnam/Combat: • While in Vietnam, as an assistant gunner, he was wounded by an enemy mortar round • Mortar rounds are 82mm and are carried by infantry (10-12 rounds) • His position was the first to be hit by the enemy mortar • His position was defended with shelters made from sand bags • Moved every 5-7 days • In the attack on his position 25 soldiers were wounded and 1 was killed (5:20) Food: • Had a Mess Sergeant with 30 years experience • Always had good food like: eggs, bacon, sandwiches, soups, casseroles, pork roast, and beef roasts • It was unknown how the Sergeant got the ingredients “in the Army you don’t ask questions” (6:12) Free Time: • Waited for mail which came in everyday with supplies by helicopter • Did normal housekeeping chores (laundry, cleaning) • Cleaned M16 every 3 or 4 days along with the Howitzer • Played cards and talked with buddies (6:55) Mail: • Communicated with home only through mail • It took the mail 10 days to reach the US, and the same was true for mail coming to them in Vietnam • Sent letters daily if the fighting was not too intense �(7:38) The Howitzer (tactic): • Forward observers would look at a map with coordinates and call in the local of an enemy position • Artillery was aimed by way of a compass (360 degree circle) • All the aiming was done manually • First round was always a smoke round, and this was used to test their aim • If forward observer said smoke good HE (high explosives) next, that meant their aim was correct and that they were to fire their live rounds • There are 6 guns in a battery, and they would be aimed at an area the size of half a football field • Communication was done by radio between the gunners and the observer (9:52) Lessons Learned: • They learned how to make their own showers and how to use and fix their communication equipment • Built improvised shelters, shelves, bunks, and storage areas • Used ammo boxes for the improvised construction (11:00) Transportation: • They used Chinook helicopters to transport both their Howitzers and themselves • The used the Chinooks anywhere from twice a day to once every two weeks • His gun was the first to be put on the ground because he was the commander of the central gun • They would first drop off the infantry to protect the drop zone so that the Howitzers could land safely, and then they would bring in the command group (12:13) After Vietnam: • He left the service 730 days after he had joined it • Did not enjoy being enlisted but felt it was something he had to do • He was in Fort Riley Kansas when the war ended (12:35) Wounded: • Was moved to the Veterans Administration Hospital in Philadelphia for two weeks • Was allowed to go home on convalescent leave • Then he had to go to Fort Riley Kansas where he became a finance clerk for the last 6 months of service • He would have been able to leave the service after being wounded , but he had more than 180 days left before his service was suppose to end (13:30) Friendships: • Did not make as many close friendships because people would come and go so much • Each person served only one year in Vietnam, and he was there for only 6 months • He left Vietnam so quick because of his injury that he did not have time to get contact info. from the buddies he did make while there �• When he served at Fort Riley he lived in an apartment complex with his wife in Manhattan Kansas where they did make many friends (14:36) After Vietnam continued: • Worked for GE as a sale engineer • Experience in the military had little application after the war (15:09) Thoughts on Current Military Service: • He thinks that people today in the all volunteer military want to serve and that is why they joined, but during Vietnam people who were drafted just wanted to get it over with (16:05) Veteran Organizations: • Member of the Disabled American Veterans (DAV) • Felt he should give back to those who sacrificed so much for their country • He gives money to DAV to help veterans who still need help because of their disabilities (16:40) Wounded continued: • Injured on Halloween • He was brought to the command bunker after trying to operate his Howitzer following being hit by shrapnel • A medivac helicopter came in and brought him to a MASH unit where he was treated • He had a collapsed lung and shrapnel in his intestines • He went from the MASH unit to a Air Force base and then to Japan for three weeks • From Japan he was sent on a hospital plane to Chicago and then on to Philadelphia • The force of the mortar explosion rolled him three times • You could hear the Mortars as they came in, but usually the first one was off target (21:16) Medals: • He got a Purple Heart for his wounds and a Bronze Star for his valor • He talks about why people got medals (22:21) Pictures: • Chinook helicopter transporting a 105mm Howitzer • Bunkers he helped build • Him standing next to M16s • The Howitzer • Him next to Howitzer • Military Payment Certificate � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context FloryJ Title A name given to the resource Flory, Jack Henry (Interview outline and video), 2007 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Flory, Jack Henry Description An account of the resource Jack Flory served in the Army during Vietnam from 1968-70. A gunner in the 4th Infantry Division, he was trained to use a 105mm howitzer, and in this interview there is a lot that deals with the tactics and experience involved in transporting and operating that kind of artillery. He tells about being wounded in combat and the various locations he was sent due to his wound. We hear about his service after recovery. He discusses the difficulty in making friends in Vietnam, and how he and those he served with had to learn to improvise. There is some discussion in relation to his feelings about those who serve currently in the military, and we get some description of his involvement in veteran organizations. The interview ends with him showing some pictures of his howitzer, of a Chinook helicopter, and the shelters they constructed. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Blank, Bailey (Interviewer) Gill, Sabriye (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Veterans Video recordings Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2007-05-25 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/827947c59451a08527b5ffb49a2a7b36.mp4 ce501f6593517aaa9bda28d309b3c98f https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1f6f8704f342173c70b6cebb8bfb9e27.pdf 023a8b119878fa108df114b564ed5aa3 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview National Guard Jim Flowers – Part 1 Total Time (01:40:56) Introduction / Basic Training (00:00:08)  Jim Flowers was born in Muskegon, Michigan in 1963 (00:00:30) ◦ After graduating from high school, Jim entered the United States Air Force (00:01:06) ◦ Jim had one uncle serve in the Vietnam War and another uncle serve in the Korean War; but he primarily wanted to join because he was a high school athlete and sought out a physical challenge along with competition (00:01:35) ◦ He shipped off to basic training in the September of 1981 at Lackland Air Force Base (AFB) in Texas; after basic training Jim was assigned to Andersen AFB in Guam (00:02:44) ▪ His basic training was only six weeks long- physically there wasn't much of a challenge for Jim because he wrestled and ran cross-country in high school (00:03:06) ▪ He entered basic training with a few of his high school class mates and met up with even more recruits from Michigan whom he still keeps in touch with (00:04:28)  After basic training, Jim entered into Technical School Training; these were about four to five weeks long and dealt with instructions to the various types of heavy equipment (00:06:30)  After that training, Jim entered a six week course of Air Base Ground Defense; it was more of a mini-infantry school with heavy weapons qualification and instruction- it was Jim's biggest challenge thus far (00:07:26)  Once he completed training at Texas, Jim went through a series of administrative checks and travel instructions; from there he packed his bags and flew from Lackland to San Francisco, California to Honolulu, Hawaii to Guam- all his flights were commercial (00:08:59)  Jim remembers watching the news and hearing certain stories from his relatives about the general backlash towards the war in Vietnam and the Vietnam veterans (00:11:07)  He knew from a very young age that he wanted to go into the military and that backlash that permeated about Vietnam did not deter him from his decision (00:11:19) Post Basic Training (00:11:20)  Jim was placed at Andersen AFB in Guam which was a strategic air command base; they had several B-52 bombers, transient tankers and other aircraft as well that stopped by for fuel and maintenance (00:12:27) ◦ Jim's primary responsibility was to repair flight lines if needed and heavy equipment maintenance (00:12:48) ◦ He was also part of something called a “Red Horse” squadron which was a deployable air force engineer element that on order could deploy to nearby places (00:13:06) ◦ Jim worked with the 43rd Engineering Squadron while in Guam- around 500 squad members (00:13:29) ▪ For the most part, the squad was between the ages of 20 and 30 years old (00:14:10) ▪ They physical and daily routine of the job wasn't much for Jim to deal with at that age; �▪ he did not mind the climate of Guam and notes that the beaches were quite nice- overall he enjoyed his tour over there (00:15:37) Predominantly the military was well received by the civilians of Guam unless there was someone that misbehaved; unfortunately Jim notes that that was always an issue as certain servicemen broke laws and local ordinances (00:16:27)  Jim was part of Temporary Duty (TDY) which assigned him to Darwin, Australia to work with the Australian Royal Air Force (00:17:02)  Additionally, his Red Horse Squadron supported an exercise in Korea for a few weeks; they trained as if they were supporting a combat operation in Korea- they built runways and participated in some levels of demolition (00:18:02) ◦ When Jim initially signed up for duty, he signed on for six years; at that time he had a choice between four and six years and the six year enlistment had an immediate promotion to E3 (00:20:28) ◦ After Guam, Jim went to F.E Warren AFB in Cheyenne, Wyoming (00:20:55) ▪ Jim was still worked as a heavy equipment operator and worked on other civil engineering projects throughout missile fields (00:21:36) ▪ He was assigned to the 90th Civil Engineer Squadron and there was around 500 members or so- similar to the group in Guam; he was part of a squadron similar to Red Horse called “Prime Beef” which worked continentally (00:22:22)  Jim enrolled in Larimie County Community College in Cheyenne; he completed two years there and immediately enrolled into Chapman University to pursue a Bachelors degree (00:23:06)  Jim got out of the Air Force and graduated college in May of 1987 (00:24:04)  Jim remembers going through readiness exercises near the end of the Cold War several times a year (00:26:27) Civilian Life (00:27:00)  At the time of the end of his six year enlistment, Jim and his family made the decision to get out of the military and to use his degree for a civilian profession; he moved from Cheyenne back to Michigan as he took a job as probation officer in Muskegon (00:27:45)  Jim notes that the criminal justice system is a very challenging environment to work in and he knew we would not want to work there for his whole life- two years into it he decided it was not for him (00:28:22) ◦ After that, Jim worked at the Friend of the Court office which does child custody and child support enforcement; he did that for several years and picked up knowledge in terms of civil litigation areas (00:28:54) ▪ He decided to go to law school in 1991 and moved to Lansing, Michigan to attend Cooley Law School (00:29:14) ▪ At the time of Desert Storm, Jim decided he wanted to help the military out in some capacity; he talked to an officer and was put in a National Guard Armory 30 miles from his home (00:30:32) National Guard Duty (00:30:32)  Jim joined the Michigan Army National Guard in September 1991 (00:30:40) ◦ He focused and balanced working with his officer commission program and going to law �school at the same time- he graduated Cooley Law School in 1997 and passed the State Bar exam in 1998 (00:31:39) ◦ He was also commissioned as an officer as of 1993 (00:31:50) ▪ His first job as an officer was platoon leader of the 1432nd Engineer Company based out of Wyoming, Michigan (00:31:58)  Jim stayed with that company for a couple of years- until late 1995/early 1996 and then was reassigned 1436th Engineer Company out of Montague, Michigan (00:34:16)  Within a year, Jim was promoted to company executive officer- which was 2nd in command of the company; he had to focus on personnel and administrative logistics, maintenance and operational planning as well (00:35:15)  Jim stayed with the 1436 unit until 2000 where he was then assigned as the commander of the 1438th Engineer Detachment out of Camp Grayling, Michigan (00:36:41)  Jim's primary mission while in Montague was to be tasked to San Diego, California to reinforce the Tijuana border roads in anti-drug missions (00:37:11) ◦ Jim commanded the 1438th which specialized in utilities; his personnel was between 60 and 70 people where he had carpenters, plumbers, and other utility workers (00:38:40) ◦ By November 2001, Jim got word that his unit was going to deploy to Iraq (00:39:20) ▪ Jim notes that his unit did not receive a lot of details regarding their deployment to Iraq, which was not uncommon (00:40:57) ▪ He mentions he got his timeframe a little off and did not actually receive word of going to Iraq until 2003 (00:41:56)  He actually got word of deploying to Iraq in the November of 2002 where the build up of troops occurred (00:42:53)  The 1438th engineer detachment was sent to Kuwait to reach Iraq; Jim flew from Ft. McCoy in Wisconsin to Germany and then onto Kuwait International Airport (00:44:02) Deployment to Iraq (00:44:02)  Jim Flowers got the instruction to meet up with the 101st Airborne Division in Mosul, Iraq (00:44:37) ◦ Jim's equipment arrived two months before they did to Kuwait which meant other units pilfered through and used what they could- the equipment was already in use or in bad shape (00:45:36) ◦ He and his unit stayed at Camp Virginia which was close to the Kuwait/Iraq border; at that point it was a big staging area (00:45:59) ◦ Initially Jim led a reconnaissance mission from Kuwait to Mosul to familiarize with the routes and areas; it is a three day convoy (00:47:14) ▪ There was a culture shock for Jim as he crossed the DMZ border into Iraq as his unit went in on their own without protection (00:48:08) ▪ He notes that the area he crossed into reminded him very much of a 3rd world nation opposed to Kuwait (00:48:37)  Jim got a sense that they were immediately in a combat operation; seeing battle damage that occurred from the initial entry triggered this (00:49:30) �  While on their convoy, Jim's unit took mortar rounds while staying at Balad Air Base; this was his first exposure that he realized he was in a war (00:51:52) From Mosul to Balad, Jim and his unit encountered a few broke down Humvee trucks and picked them up; an iraqi truck spilled into them and fortunately their was not an explosion- to this day Jim doesn't know if they were insurgents or what (00:54:55) ◦ Jim and his unit made the return trip and pretty much encountered the same things as before- rocketed and or mortared which was a daily/nightly occurrence (00:56:11) ◦ It took no longer than a week for Jim's unit to become fully operational while they were in Mosul (00:58:42) ▪ The Mosul Air Field was their main mission- to maintain the civil engineering infrastructure on the air field (00:58:57) ▪ Jim comments that there was a lot of insurgency activity surrounding them; they were rocketed or mortared if not daily, every other day (01:01:08)  Jim and his unit were fortunate and never took any casualties while in Iraq- he did send some of his soldiers home with medical issues as he notes the drastic climate change between the midwest and the Middle East (01:02:09)  Equipment damage happened quite a bit; vehicles were sprayed with bullets and shrapnel as well as additional battle damage (01:03:29) ◦ Jim and his crew spent eight months in Mosul; from June 2003 to January/February 2004 (01:03:43) ▪ There was a shift in mood in Mosul after Uday Hussein (eldest son of Saddam Hussein) and Qusay Hussein (son of Saddam Hussein) were killed; a celebratory mood but a notion of who was going to run things next (01:05:00) ▪ There were celebratory firings into the sky after it was announced via radio that Saddam Hussein had been killed; part of this is the large Kurdish population in Mosul- the Kurds were part of targeted killings by Saddam previously (01:07:01) ▪ Maintaining basic services and utilities in Iraq was a tremendous issue at that time and probably so even now, comments Jim (01:09:10) ▪ Once the 101st airborne was finished with their assignment, Jim's unit was reassigned as well to the 2nd Brigade 25th Infantry Division in Kirkuk, Iraq (01:11:31) ▪ Jim's unit went in to areas where other army units needed defense perimeters and measures that were poorly built and fixed them up for them (01:13:35) ▪ The 65th Engineer Battalion based out of Hawaii was shorthanded and Jim sliced out different parts of his units to go and help them; they had the job of collecting explosives from Saddam's prior war with Iran and to blow them up (01:15:16) ▪ By April of 2004, it Jim and his units' time to push out of Iraq; they were replaced by a similar unit (01:16:48) ▪ Jim spent two weeks training the unit that was coming in to replace them (01:17:23) �▪ ▪ ▪ ▪ ▪ ▪ ▪ Part of Jim's work was to work with local Iraqis in Kirkuk and Mosul to get local contractors to do work as well (01:19:09) Jim worked with interpreter's and notes that probably around 90% or more were university students that were ready and welcome to a change in Iraq (01:20:59) He felt more comfortable in the Kurdish capital of Kirkuk than anywhere else- you could pretty much guarantee that you were not going to get hit by IED's or insurgent attacks there (01:21:49) Opposite of Kirkuk was the Baghdad where he and his unit got glares from locals (01:22:22) For a few minutes, Jim explains an issue he had with a few insurgent trucks while leaving; his units hit an occupant of the truck and they called a medevac in to treat the wounded insurgent (01:27:14) Jim describes going from the Iraqi/Kuwaiti border as a high tension to a relaxed feeling (01:27:40) The military gave Jim's unit a few weeks to decompress in Kuwait and clean off the equipment (01:28:21) Post Iraq (01:28:59)  May/June of 2004 Jim and his unit flew back to Ft. McCoy to do some demobilization activities, medical things, and then were sent back home (01:28:59) ◦ Jim notes that even in 2004 the military didn't really know what they know today about mental illness prevention; there were some suicide prevention events and they met with social workers as well- once they got back to Michigan the National Guard did everything they could to take care of them (01:30:12) ◦ He felt pretty peaceful for the first few months after he got back from Iraq; nothing that was going on in the states was comparable to what happened in Iraq for Jim (01:31:23) ◦ After awhile, that feeling wears off and you have to kind of face the emotions eventually; the experience is different for every soldier Jim notes (01:31:46) ▪ Jim did another over seas deployment training mission several months after he got back from Iraq; He spent three weeks in Italy (01:33:06) ▪ He took his unit to Camp Darby in Pisa, Italy- they did their standard utility work; basic road repair and landscaping as well (01:33:31)  The Italians were quite receptive and some even employed by the military and worked on the base as well (01:34:20) ▪ In Jim's unit, about 10% of the soldiers were female (01:34:44)  He mentions that the female soldiers are just as capable as their male counterparts and are true assets to the military (01:35:37)  After Italy, Jim was promoted to Major and assigned as a logistics officer for the Engineer Brigade of the 38th Infantry Division- another Michigan National Guard unit (01:35:56) ◦ Jim was tasked to Afghanistan to work with a brigade sized unit who specifically were supposed to train the Afghan Army and Police force around 2007 (01:37:13) ◦ Jim and his unit trained at Ft. Riley, Kansas for four months; they trained on Afghan culture and 120 hours of training on the language as well plus additional �combat training (01:37:47) ▪ He mentions the Global War on Terror sent a message to the United States: Be adaptable, be ready to take on non-standard missions (01:39:38) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context FlowersJ1565V1 Title A name given to the resource Flowers, James (Interview outline and video, 1 of 2), 2014 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Flowers, James Description An account of the resource Jim Flowers was born in Muskegon, Michigan in 1963. After he graduated high school, enlisted in the Air Force and did a tour on a strategic air command base on Guam. Back in the US, he completed college while still in the Air Force, and then spent a few years in civilian jobs before entering the Michigan National Guard in 1991. Commissioned as an officer in 1993, he eventually took a full time position with the Guard, and deployed to Iraq in 2003 and to Afghanistan in 2007 and 2012. He currently commands the 507th Engineer Battalion based in Kalamazoo, Michigan. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Iraq War, 2003-2011--Personal narratives, American Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American United States. Air Force United States. National Guard Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2014-01-23 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/862e229b1ff5975fb51489e11ec91ad3.mp4 ddfc021bbef5df3df05dd15020e23672 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6458b9fc531c5dd00e534149f7d49339.pdf d4665a9ef74d8c0f581c6f816f63a66d PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview National Guard Jim Flowers – Part 2 Total Time (01:46:50) Re-Introduction / Review from Part I (00:00:02-00:07:52) Back to the United States & Beyond (00:00:40)  Before Jim Flowers and his unit went back to the United States, they spent seven to ten days in Kuwait as a period to just chill out from the combat they just saw; after Kuwait they headed to their mobilization station in Ft. McCoy, Wisconsin (00:01:26)  From Ft. McCoy, Jim and his unit took a cargo plane over Lake Michigan to head back to Michigan; they touched down at a municipal airport in Grayling, Michigan (00:03:27) ◦ As the plane was landing, he could see a parade of families waiting for the soldiers to get back from duty and Jim called it an emotional high point in his life (00:03:59) ◦ In October 2004, Jim got offered to work at Camp Darby in Italy for three weeks and he happily took the job (00:05:30) ▪ Although Jim and his men worked on major construction sites while at Camp Darby, he mentions it was a “job well done” congratulations for their time in Iraq (00:06:28) Training & Afghanistan (00:08:25)  Jim got picked up to do his first rotation in Afghanistan as an embedded trainer and advisor for the Afghanistan security forces (the police, army, or border patrol of Afghanistan) (00:08:41) ◦ Jim and his unit trained in Michigan where a lot of it was tactical; when you look into it, the training was really infantry training (00:10:25) ◦ The training in Michigan was primarily infantry training, small unit tactics, some marksmanship and a little close quarters combat fundamentals (00:12:19) ◦ From there, Jim went to Ft. Riley, Kansas where the training was more in-depth; he learned skills to train foreign forces, 120 hours of language training, cultural immersion training (00:13:24) ◦ The Department of Defense contracted Afghan- now US citizens did language training and cultural immersion training with the US forces; many activities would be roleplaying scenarios where the Afghans would critique the soldiers afterwards (00:15:46) ▪ Jim and his unit headed to Afghanistan in May 2007 (00:17:30) ▪ From the airport, Jim headed to Camp Phoenix which was located in Kabul; they were at Camp Phoenix for ten days where they were issued their assignments (00:18:22) ▪ By weeks three and four, Jim and the group saw the immensity of the training and advising missions; the facilities and equipment were bad and the discipline of the Afghan army was not much compared to the United States or NATO forces (00:21:18) ▪ Jim and his forces spent three months in Zormat to relieve the Afghanistan Police to Jalalabad for training (00:23:56)  Jim described an incident at Zormat where a day prior, there was an attack by the Taliban on the Afghan Police as he called it a reality check of what was to come (00:26:12)  The Afghan National Civil Order Police (ANCOP) commander understood his mission as primarily just to secure the district center in Zormat; but Jim had to explain otherwise as there was a sort of disconnect between the overall missions �(00:28:14) ◦ The month of January 2008 was a month long operation for Jim and his unit; they searched the greater Zormat area (20-30 miles in radius), the intent was to disrupt the logistics hubs of the Taliban so when they came back for their Spring offensive, they'd come back to empty hubs (00:33:43) ◦ Overall they were pretty successful, after they set up a few security perimeters around a village, Jim and the ANCOP team would go in and do searches for weapons caches (00:34:51) ◦ Jim's ANCOP people performed really well at these searches which were around 30-40 officers; Jim and the US were there more as an advisory role than a training role which is what they were trying to achieve (00:36:08) ▪ After Zormat, Jim went to assist another training team just South of Jalalabad; he mentions this group of ANCOP people weren't as eager to trainhe comments that different forces will behave differently (00:38:27) ▪ The Minister of Education for the location South of Jalalabad received supplies and was hoarding them and not distributing them; Jim and ANCOP went in and got the supplies and distributed them to the village quite peacefully- although Jim described it as a bit unnerving (00:41:13)  The Afghan attitude towards the United States really depended on what area you were in; the more remote the location the more you had to work to establish a relationship; it wasn't uncommon to have kids throw rocks at US vehicles (00:44:13)  By the time Jim and his unit did two months in the Jalalabad area, they were ready to pull out of Afghanistan; they staged some relief in place forces and additional ANCOP forces in Ghazni and other areas (00:45:39)  The last mission Jim did in Afghanistan was running a convoy of ANCOP down to Ghazni to get the ANCOP situated in their area of operation; this was around late April 2008 (00:46:26)  Some of the high points for Jim were capturing a Taliban leader in Zormat in addition to capturing around 40 fighters there as well, obtaining weapons caches, and response to numerous IED type incidents (00:47:23) ◦ Jim's unit never sustained any casualties and the ANCOP had a few wounded but overall there wasn't any casualties (00:48:07) ◦ He did have contact with people back home but the internet was spotty; he worked out a deal with his wife- he called his wife once a week on a satellite phone and normally e-mail her two-three times a week if possible (00:51:14) Back to the United States (00:52:35)  Jim went from Afghanistan to Kuwait, stayed a week there as they had a cool-down week to decompress, flew back to Ft. Riley, Kansas for out-processing, and then landed at the Lansing/Capital City Airport (00:54:08)  They arrived back home in late May/early June of 2008 (00:54:29) ◦ During the last couple months of Afghanistan, Jim knew he was going to fill a S3 Operations Officer position 507th Engineer Battalion, which is the battalion he commands today (00:54:52) �◦ In January 2009, Jim did a PCS move out to Ft. Leavonworth, Kansas to do a year long command and general staff course- his wife went with home and his kids were grown and out of the house at that time so it made the move a bit easier (00:55:41) ◦ At the time Jim was enrolled, the courses involved all branches of the military- army, navy, marine as well- there was also military officers from different countries as well (00:57:11) ◦ Prior to leaving the command and general staff college, Jim was notified that he was going to go into the executive officer position for the 507th Engineer Battalion- which was poised for a 2010 Afghanistan deployment (which was put on hold til 2012) (00:58:34) ▪ Jim also got picked up to be the Operations Officer for the 46th Military Police Command based out of Lansing, Michigan (00:59:16) ▪ Before re-deploying to Afghanistan, Jim had to do a commanders recon course; this took place in January/February of 2012 with a small contingent of people and the unit was to get in depth with the unit they were replacing and brief with them (01:04:14)  They were briefed on current tactics and procedures the Taliban were practicing (01:04:57)  A sapper company are all combat engineers- they specialize in mine fields, breaching obstacles, demolitions operations while a lot of the other engineer companies are construction oriented (01:06:54) Back to Afghanistan (01:07:30)  Jim and the unit mobilized out of Ft. Bliss, Texas in May of 2012 and then got into Afghanistan on June 6th of 2012- they departed from Kuwait and flew into Afghanistan (01:08:57) ◦ They met up with 14th Engineer Battalion who were right in the middle of a major operation (01:09:53) ◦ They were task-forced as “War Hammer” and took over the 14th Engineer Battalion after two weeks and were then in the middle of a major operation, called “Operation Shrimp Net” which was a large base closure and counter IED measure in South West Afghanistan (01:10:36) ▪ Jim talks of mine-resistant vehicles that they had for Afghanistan but didn't have for Iraq; if their vehicles were hit they would take some damage but the soldiers would walk away and that wasn't the case for the non-mine-resistant vehicles in Iraq (01:12:36) ▪ He mentions that some of the IED's could be detonated by somebody who was watching them (01:13:37) ▪ The detection rate for IED's for Jim's group was about 70-80%, so three out of ten they found the hard way (01:14:53) ▪ Sometimes Jim found himself in need of their vehicles to be fixed and in some situations contractors would fly out to where they were and fix what had to be done (01:18:21)  Camp Leatherneck and Camp Bastion hadn't sustained an attack for over a year when they were hit once again when Jim and his unit were there (01:20:02)  Around Herat, there was a particularly dangerous place called the “Devils Elbow” where there was IED after IED laid which was mostly done by opium growers (01:21:31)  Jim and the unit spent a year in Afghanistan; overall the situation stayed the same while they were there- they cleared about 250 IED's within a ten month timeframe, built a lot of bridges, repaired bridges as well, and the situation on the ground didn't change much if at all (01:24:42)  As far as clearing the area from the Taliban, Jim comments that it stayed pretty much neutral for that time period (01:25:35) �   The 205th Corps of the Afghan National Army had quite a bit of presence in that area as well- the ANCOP was present as well along with border patrol, regular Afghan Police Forces in place (01:26:00) Jim and his unit worked a lot with other American and NATO forces; specifically the 1st Marine Expeditionary Forces, the British Infantry units, and others as well (01:28:00) Between the NATO, the British, Spanish forces, Marines, Army, and Afghan Forces, each has their own perception of flexibility and time management as far as projects go (01:30:54) ◦ As a 2nd in Command, Jim had to deal with two soldiers killed in action while they were traveling back to Camp Leatherneck in a medevac vehicle; he personally had to do the body identification (01:34:37) ◦ The whole process of what Jim dealt with was one of the most emotional events that he had to deal with up until that time while in the military (01:35:12) ◦ There was one soldier who took the prior events very hard and had to be sent home and wouldn't have been functional for the duration of the deployment but overall there wasn't much battle stress or psychological stress (01:36:48) ▪ It was mandatory to spend two to three days in a battle stress clinic if an IED did hit you (01:37:02) ▪ The main bridging operations dealt with replacing bridges that the Taliban had previously blown up (01:40:07)  At the end of their deployment, they handed it off to the 307th Engineer Battalion out of the 82nd Airborne Division out of Ft. Bragg, North Carolina- they came in around February 2013 (01:41:29) Back to the United States (01:42:39)  Jim and his unit got back to the United States in March of 2013 and arrived at Ft. Bliss and went through all the same processing stuff as before (01:42:47)  They flew back into Battle Creek, Michigan and had a tremendous welcome by the Battle Creek and Kalamazoo population (01:43:44) ◦ A month after Jim got back from Afghanistan he found out he was going to take command of the 507th Engineer Battalion (01:45:01) ◦ He took command in June of 2013 (01:45:26) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context FlowersJ1565V2 Title A name given to the resource Flowers, James (Interview outline and video, 2 of 2), 2014 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Flowers, James Description An account of the resource Jim Flowers was born in Muskegon, Michigan in 1963. After he graduated high school, enlisted in the Air Force and did a tour on a strategic air command base on Guam. Back in the US, he completed college while still in the Air Force, and then spent a few years in civilian jobs before entering the Michigan National Guard in 1991. Commissioned as an officer in 1993, he eventually took a full time position with the Guard, and deployed to Iraq in 2003 and to Afghanistan in 2007 and 2012. He currently commands the 507th Engineer Battalion based in Kalamazoo, Michigan. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Iraq War, 2003-2011--Personal narratives, American Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American United States. Air Force United States. National Guard Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2014-01-23 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d2dde65c408cb20c215ebd63ce8ec90b.mp4 0f41dd7fe58a171b0930deb28db91381 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/71bd0377bafb7999d4b8b6b85aad90a3.pdf cbb90a6d6eefee30b316b1e02f18c08b PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Jack Floyd (129:15) Born in St Charles, MI July 2nd 1922 Pre Military Had to walk two miles to school in Lake Orion MI Family moved to Pontiac for only a year, then back to Lake Orion, Detroit area. He describes his friends. Played Football. Kid got killed playing football, he was not present. Left school in Tenth grade December of 1939 he was trapping Muskrats Got a dollar a hide, ate the rest. (12:15) CCC In January 1940 Enlisted in the Civilian Conservation Corps in White Cloud, MI. Camp on the White River Did surveying the “old fashioned way” measured and surveying via chains Lived in wooden barracks, he was 30 dollars per month, was issued cigarettes. (bought them at CCC) Discharged from CCC later that year. Father got him a job at a tool and die shop until September when he got laid off. Went back to trapping muskrats. Reenlisted in the CCC in December, worked as surveyor and clerk. (22:35) Pre-war Army Spring of 1941 enlisted in the army at Fort Custer. �Co. B/ 7th Engineer Battalion 5th Infantry Division “Red Diamond” Was made a clerk because he knew how to type Participated in field exercises in the lower Mississippi valley. 11th Infantry Regiment was sent to Iceland In September of 1941 Remained in Fort Custer. On December 7, he was listening to the radio with his future wife. (41:15) War Starts for Jack He remained a clerk. Went to Fort Hamilton, New York via traincar. Got Shots and inoculations, got on the boat. Large swells on the North Atlantic in January arrived in Iceland. He built fortifications (pillboxes), in Iceland for 19 months. He gives a description of his environs. Became a squad leader, became a squad leader, then a corporal. Victims of German submarines would wash ashore; it was his responsibility to bury hem. The rest of the 5th Division arrived in Iceland (54:55) England and Ireland Moved to England, and then transferred to Northern Ireland. Became sergeant in Ireland Training 82nd Airborne, 2nd Infantry Division, 8th Infantry Division. His unit loaded these divisions for the Normandy Invasion. The 5th shipped out towards the end of June. (102:15) Continental Europe Front was 12 miles from the shore when they arrived, they relieved 1st Engineers/1st Infantry Division Made supply sergeant immediately before crossing the channel �Disembarked 9th of July, immediately relieved the 1st Infantry Engaged enemy, allies began to run low on fuel. Took Paris Moving a 60 or 70 miles a day. The 3rd Army (Patton) created, with his division made part of it. Met Patton (But can’t remember where or when) Army ran out of gas at Metz. Buddy Alex got killed by surprise mortar attack. Jack narrowly escaped death. (1:19:00) Germans attacked on the 19th of December, the 5th ordered to link with the 101st in Bastogne. (END OF DISC) Disc Two (00:00)Bulge (cont.) Was stationed in Kaansdorf, just returned from chow, sat down shell landed nearby, threw him into air. Was stationed on the Saar River across from the Germans, talked to general Patton, was putting in minefield. (7:15) (8:20) Crossing the Rhine Unit crossed the River over reconstructed foot bridges. They reached their objective, only to run right into machine gun nest. He jumped into a depression, but was shot in his ankle. Due to his injuries, he was evacuated to 52nd General Hospital unit in England until April. Upon recovery he was sent Back to Germany via Luxemburg, stationed in Nuremburg replacement hospital. Reunited with his unit in Czechoslovakia Regular army members of the 5th were separated to form the peacetime 5th Infantry Division. Oberammergau passion play (20:30) Returned Home, Marriage �4th of August, Returned by boat to Newport News, VA Proposed and decided, and actually got license in the same day, in his military uniform. Went back to school, finished High School. (27:00) Reflections 3 sons eligible for the Vietnam draft. All except one went to school.   � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context FloydJ Title A name given to the resource Floyd, Jack (Interview outline and video), 2005 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Floyd, Jack Description An account of the resource Jack Floyd served in the United States Army, 1st Engineers, 5th Infantry Division, during WW II. He was part of the Third Army and describes Normandy, the Battle of the Bulge, and General Patton. He also describes trapping, skinning and eating muskrats. He was involved in the Field Training exercises in the southern Mississippi River Valley, and was also stationed in Iceland, England, Ireland and continental Europe. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Collins Sr., Charles E. (Interviewer) Collins, Carol (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Veterans Video recordings Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2005-09-01 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/32d79c059e422820dcf64db68521ec6f.mp4 c108c61816534db39c965266061e2b87 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d88a2d85851d629ec8392c7d4515c834.pdf 10699b0124215d6e2675f03ebd94fff1 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interviews Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Edwin “Ed” Fobes Date of Interview: 05-29-1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 1] FRANK BORING: Begin with any kind of detail you want to give us as to what were you doing before you even joined the military? ED FOBES: Well, I was born and raised in Chicago. My dad passed away in 1935 – just a kid. My step mother and I never got along so I decided to join the army to get away. So I dropped out of high school, joined the 14th Cavalry – horse cavalry – at Fort Sheridan, Illinois. I served there for oh about sixteen months and young, adventurous, seeking it. I took a short discharge and reenlisted for the Philippine Islands. So in January of… (break) FRANK BORING: I’d like to find out what you were doing before you joined up with military? ED FOBES: Well, I was born and raised in Chicago. Went through the public school system there. My Dad died when I was not quite 18. I dropped out of high school and my stepmother and I never really got along so it was best I find something else, so I went down and I joined the U.S. Army and I was assigned to Troop B of the 14th Cavalry. Fort Sheridan, Illinois. This is the old horse cavalry days. B Troop was a show troop. I enjoyed the experience, being a big private all the way through. While I was there about 15 months later, 16 months later, I was seeking something different so I volunteered for infantry in the Philippine Islands. I was accepted 1 �for it. 1938, January, I sailed from Fort Slocum, New York, Brooklyn Army Base actually down thru the Panama Canal on the old USAT. Republic Army transport into Fort McDowell, California - Fort Mason. We transshipped there to the USAT Grant and out then to Hawaii, Guam and up into the Philippines. While in the Islands for a full two year tour I was mainly in the [?] capacity mostly as a company clerk or headquarters clerk in some category or for a while I ran the base library and was a Chaplain’s boy. My conduct wasn’t chaplain boy, but my job was. I left = there in - I did make PFC one time for a short period - came back in March, late February, early March of 1940 re-enlisted for permanent party there at Fort McDowell, Angel Island, subsequently transferred up to Army Air Corps at Hamilton Air Force Base - just down the road here, in fact it’s the first of five tours of duty I had at Hamilton over the years. I went in again to administration, company clerk, but the main reason I wanted to get some kind of training, so I put in for the first Tech School that came up and it was Teletype maintenance and insulation. So fine, they ship me back to Chanute Field, Illinois and I completed the tech course there - three or four months. Did pretty good, came back to Hamilton, my organization had no spot for a Teletype type - I was a buck sergeant by then, so they made me a supply sergeant. It fit right in with my military training at the Teletype. I’ve never touched one since the day I left tech school. It was a wasted training, but things worked that way in those days. I was hoping to make staff, I was a senior buck sergeant in the outfit, promotions came out and no soap, so I went in to talk to the old man and he said, well you’re not occupying your position where there’s a vacancy for a staff sergeant. I said well, that’s not my fault. He said well, I’m sorry. He says, I’ve got a job for you and I’m very with what you are doing, I think I’ll take you down to the BOQ and put you in charge of administration down at the Bachelors Officers Quarters. My squadron commander was also the Bachelor Officer Quarters officer. Well that didn’t sit very well with me cause I wanted to get married - make staff and get married and get my present wife out there, but it was frustrating. I wasn’t getting 2 �anywhere, sitting down at the BOQ every day, sure I ate like a king and I lived high - staying right at the BOQ but I couldn’t see any future. So scuttlebutt went around, rumors and they were recruiting people to go to China. Well, my ears perked up - it was one way to get out of there. I’d had two opportunities to go out as an acting first sergeant to two newly formed fighter squadrons and this lieutenant fought and turned it down, I couldn’t get away. So when this came up I went in, was interviewed, I think Aldsworth or Aldsworth was the interviewers name at the time and got accepted. President Roosevelt had authorized special discharges for any of us that signed up to go to China. So my orders came thru and I took them in and put them on the lieutenant’s desk and said well, this is it and I left. So I hung around San Rafael stayed with a couple of friends there until we reported down to the Belleview Hotel in San Francisco where they gathered the troops together, most of us were directed there and stayed there until the Jaegersfontein finally sailed. FRANK BORING: Could you tell us about what it was that the recruiter told you about what it was you were doing and what you could expect? And could you give us your reaction to that? What interested you to join at that point? ED FOBES: Well the interviewer talked to me, he didn’t go into much specific detail. I think he was, I don’t know whether it was security wise, or just what the motivation was, he just merely said they were going to form a couple of air corps type units in China to work with the Chinese and they needed help. They needed experienced people. I had, oh, almost, a little over six years’ service - five to six years’ service at the time - and I thought I was a pretty good administrator so I thought I could fill the job. FRANK BORING: Now, what did you know about China at this particular period, before you went over? What did you know about the situation in China? 3 �ED FOBES: Well, having served for two years in the Philippine Islands, I knew there were problems in the Far East. I knew China was having their problems with the Japanese and Manchuria and all these other areas - of course our basic infantry there - we were there to work with the Philippine Army to prevent any invasion or anything else and we all knew eventually or thought eventually it was going to happen. Our area actually was the Laguna De [?] and then the Laitai [?] Gulf and through there so I was fairly cognizant of what the situation was in the Far East. Whether that had any real bearing on my desire to go out there or not I don’t know. I was an adventurous young punk with loose ends and thought it would be something different, something to experience. FRANK BORING: What did you tell your future wife about what you were going to be doing? ED FOBES: Well, when I signed up I was a little frustrated, because as I said, I couldn’t get the promotion I wanted and also I, my present wife, girlfriend in those days wasn’t the best correspondent so I was a little bit honked off at that situation also, so I merely told her okay, you’re not coming out here, your folks won’t let you come out here and get married - I’m going to China. Period. I didn’t build it up or anything I went this is the situation - this is going to be my solution to it. So that’s another one of the reasons why I did sign up to go out to Central Aircraft Manufacturing Company , good old CAMCO Fort China. FRANK BORING: What was the process in getting out of the military? Was there any difficulty or was it easy to get out? ED FOBES: There was absolutely no problems in getting a discharge once you were accepted by CAMCO’s representatives because, Chennault, I mean Roosevelt had authorized a special discharge for any of us enlisted personnel at least in the army air corps that wanted to go out there and were acceptable to the organization. It was just a 4 �matter of routine paperwork and gave me a piece of paper that said hello - goodbye. FRANK BORING: If you could, describe to us your first encounter in SAN FRANCISCO with this group of guys that you were eventually going to go to China with. ED FOBES: Well, contracting there at the Belleview Hotel in San Francisco, there were oh, at least ten, twelve, maybe fifteen of us from Hamilton Field. All up there at about the same time reporting in within a day or two of each other. I did know one of the pilots quite well - Ray Hastey and Sergeant Louie Wyatt, a communications man was also from the same squadron I was a member of at Hamilton, so we just got around and started noticing each other and we didn’t really say are you or are you not? We sort of inferred we were going somewhere and the guys said oh, yeah we are too and that way we sort of acknowledged each other and got to know each other. FRANK BORING: Was there any sense of secrecy about this? Were you told to keep this quiet? ED FOBES: We were supposed to use a little subterfuge I would say. Uh, we weren’t supposed to come right out and tell anybody hey we’re going to China and work with the Chinese Air Force such as that. Uh, we were cautioned is about the only thing I could say - we just weren’t supposed to broadcast who we were or what we were going to be doing. FRANK BORING: When you applied for a passport to go to China, uh what, you didn’t go as a clerk administrator or people didn’t go as a pilot trainer. Do you recall what was the career or the job you were listed as? ED FOBES: You know, it’s strange, I never thought of that and I don’t recall what I was carried as, frankly, I don’t recall. Sorry. 5 �FRANK BORING: There was quite a few humorous ... do you recall any of the ones of the other guys? ED FOBES: Sorry, again I just can’t recall any of the - I know there were some - some of the guys joked about them, but you know it’s been a few years. A little hard to remember. FRANK BORING: One of them was a missionary and he actually got asked to do one of these church things. Uh, when you left from San Francisco can you give us an idea of what the boat trip was like? What was the boat and what was the actual travel like? ED FOBES: Well, when we sailed from San Francisco, we were aboard I think a Java East Indies Line, Jaegersfontein. It was a combination passenger freighter - I think about 100 - 125 of us aboard - our accommodations were excellent. The crew and everything that could be done for us - they were most helpful. We had good food good everything. It got awful monotonous, the roundabout way we had to sail and such as that and we got out to Honolulu and had a oh about a four or five hour shore leave then back aboard ship and out we went and sailing right down across the Pacific. I think the next time I saw land someone pointed out some land they said it was the Torres Straights. Just north of Australia. We did see once or twice ships on the horizon. I think they tried to avoid any of the normal passenger lanes not knowing what was going on or whether Japanese Intelligence had any information or knowledge of what we were doing or what we were going to be doing. At one time, we spotted - it was rumored to be a Dutch cruiser who was allegedly providing little escort at a distance, but we never had any confirmation of that. But life aboard ship was sort of humdrum, like any long sea trip. We played cards, we talked, there were books aboard to read. But there wasn’t a great deal to do. They did form a bridge tournament and I teamed up with one of the pilots, Charlie Mott who was subsequently shot down and prisoner of war and braggingly Charlie and I beat the troops. So immediately after 6 �that the ship’s captain and purser challenged Charlie and I to a bridge match. We had it up in the Captain’s cabin - we were happy to be up there and he was very liberal in his pouring of schnapps and anything else and we beat the pants off them too, so it was an interesting experience. FRANK BORING: Were there any particular incidents on board that stick out in your mind whether it was involving people or the other passengers that were on board? Were there interactions between them - the two groups? ED FOBES: We were the only ones aboard. There were to the best of my knowledge, only our people were aboard and of course, we were all military, military background, military service people so we sort of ... the ex-enlisted people sort of hibernated together and the officers stayed pretty well in their group. It wasn’t a delineating line that we had or anything but just a custom of the service. FRANK BORING: What did you - you arrived in Rangoon, eventually. Can you describe to us your first impressions of arriving in Rangoon and what happened after that? ED FOBES: Well, when the Jaegersfontein pulled into Rangoon, uh we didn’t know what to expect or what was going to happen of course. We’d heard of the beauty of the Orient and the beautiful [?] and things there. I think everyone of us really remembered uh, [?] Speaks and Rudyard Kipling - On the Road to Mandalay - and we figured eventually we were going to see Mandalay if we were going up to China. They had a reception committee, you might say, a few people there to welcome us and hustle us immediately on to buses or trucks to get us out of Rangoon and any publicity. So up to Toungoo we went. Now, we didn’t know Toungoo from the man in the moon but it had been a former British Air Force, air core training base and it had been adapted for our personnel. 7 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Fobes_Ed_1991-05-29_v01 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Fobes, Edwin L. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-05-29 Title A name given to the resource Ed Fobes interview (video and transcript, 1 of 5), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of Ed "Sarge" Fobes by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Fobes served as AVG Headquarters Clerk. He was stationed in Rangoon and Toungoo, Burma and Loiwing and Kunming, China. In this tape, Fobes describes his upbringing in Chicago, Illinois before joing the military and how he was recruited to join the AVG in China. He also illustrates his experience traveling aboard the Jaegersfontein and his first impressions upon arrival in Rangoon. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/964752c094beddb6a157d043632a3e26.mp4 2c8d9a3c5713ee73984cde4d22aa301b https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/935d2e4c062458b66b81a657ecae6e6c.pdf 08a23db6b6da56b48cb3460df661e068 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interviews Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Edwin “Ed” Fobes Date of Interview: 05-29-1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 2] FRANK BORING: If you could give us your first impression and then any description of the camp that was there in Toungoo. ED FOBES: Well, again, we arrived at Toungoo at the old airport there - the old airfield I should say. Some of the fellows were quite surprised, I wasn’t because I’d been out in the Far East and I fairly used to the thatched top buildings and such they had out there. They were commodious, of course, like anything tropical air you are going to have mosquitos - you’re going to have bugs. Some of the fellows had never seen a mosquito net - that was quite a surprise. Also, there were a few scorpions around that no one really welcomed. We’d been pretty well warned about them, to watch out, to shake your shoes out and things like this before you slid them on in the morning. It is just a matter of acclimation, to get used to it there. The main thing I remember about Toungoo in the first few days there, I remember very vividly. The people had hired a bunch of local cooks and have you ever had breakfast, dinner and supper curried - hot, curried food. That lasted four or five days, the whole outfit was in an uproar. They were ready to revolt or do anything. So they fired that catering group, shall we call it and brought some other people in there to cook. I think it was the Savoy Restaurant chain from Burma. And they came in and started giving us the kind of food that a bunch of hungry yanks wanted - not all the curries, but otherwise they just settled down to get the training started. The aircraft started coming up. The crew chiefs were assigned to their �planes - the clerks did whatever anyone asked them to do. I was at the time assigned to the second squadron under Scarsdale Jack Newkirk who was a fine, fine man and I did his bidding is about all I can say. FRANK BORING: Give us an idea of your duties if you will and I realize it was like you say do this, do that kind of thing. But give us an idea of what it was like in terms of what you actually had to do. ED FOBES: Well, my recollection is a little vague again. The duties we - well the group was formed actually - they figured this can operate just like a US squadron and you had to have personnel records. You had reports that had to be rendered routinely. We were asked to bring out copies of the various and sundry forms that we used in our work, in our squadrons, in our units. But there was none of that. We didn’t have official personnel records, we didn't have reports being rendered on routine and such as that. So really there wasn’t a heck of a lot for us to do as clerks. Not that there were many of us only two or three. Of course, the operations clerks they worked down in operations, kept the time sheets, the aircraft logs and that, and those administrative clerks - only two or three of us. We were each assigned to one of the squadrons they hadn’t even set up a headquarters as yet, because there was really no need for it until they actually got operating. So, my contributions there were negligible. Just being available if someone wanted something - go do it. Might call me a go for. FRANK BORING: Who were the administrative staff that you had most contact with? Like Harvey Greenlaw or any of these. Chennault also, when did you first meet Chennault? ED FOBES: Oh, I met the old man for the first time, hard to remember. He was there and on the exact occasion that I met him for the first time, I do not recall. I mean I’d seen him several times around and again being just a clerk, I wasn’t one of the cogs of the organization, so he had no reason to look me up and I had no reason to look up a �bird colonel or former colonel. It was just that way. I got on his, shall we call it his S list one time. Sir Robert [?] ......a VIP, VIP, VIP - veddy, veddy British type came out to visit us and he talked to us a few minutes out there and as he was departing, I asked for his autograph. And I got it. I got chewed too. That was not proper protocol of any manner, shape or form. I think that’s the first time General Chennault, the old man really knew me, because he chewed me. FRANK BORING: Who were some of the other staff members that you had contact with and what was your impressions of them? ED FOBES: Well, actually the only staff members that I can remember closely at Toungoo days, at least was Adair and he seemed extremely efficient. Very cognizant of the situation out there and really all out to help us in any manner shape or form he could. I didn’t meet Greenlaw or his wife Olga that we called Olga from the Volga - I believe she was a White Russian refugee - until I got up to Kunming later on. FRANK BORING: Was there any incident that you can recall from your observation point that stick out during this training period in Toungoo, in terms of concern for the pilots, reaction to the abilities of the pilots in training, the crew chiefs, anything that sticks out from that particular period of time? ED FOBES: No, I think recollection, the guys pitched in. It was very pleasing, it wasn’t what we might call into service rivalry. Everyone seemed to mesh in, Navy, Marine, Air Force - the guys all got together. They were professionals, they knew their job and they got the job done. The conditions sometimes were a little hazardous, a little shortage of this, that or the other. They had to cannibalize at times to keep the planes in the air - keep the equipment going. They did provide us some recreational activities occasionally. I remember one specific instance where they took a bus load or two of us up to a teak farm and we got to watch the elephants roam the teak logs and �the training of some of the younger elephants. Unfortunately at that time, most of us were wearing shorts and we had to walk thru a bunch of tall grass and we got covered with leeches and those blood sucking leeches are really blood sucking leeches, but they quickly told us “Don’t pull them off, hit them with a lighted cigarette” and we did and they fell on off. But that was quite an experience. FRANK BORING: There was, at this time, as you say, some of the men really pitched in but some of the people who had arrived there gave up and went back. Do you remember any of that? Do you recall any of that? ED FOBES: One or two of the pilots left. I don’t remember any of the enlisted personnel leaving. Possibly there was, I’m not cognizant of it. FRANK BORING: Immediately after - Could you give us an idea of what would be called a routine during the period of time in Toungoo? What was that like? ED FOBES: Toungoo routine was typical to any training mission any training base. The planes as quickly as they arrived up after being assembled down in Rangoon, they were tested and the pilots got up and flew them. There was tactics training as Chennault was a great tactician and his theories were beautifully proven out by the group subsequently. Otherwise again it was routine day in and day out. The crew chiefs crew [?] the armourers floated the guns, the ordinance men did this, the clerks did this, the cooks did this, whatever. FRANK BORING: Give us an idea of the difference between the military in the Philippines and the AVT? ED FOBES: Pre world war two military spit and polish, the extreme delineating line between the peon enlisted men which we were considered in those days very strongly and the officer hierarchy. There was absolutely night and day. When we got together there at Toungoo �and forming the group, this disappeared really. There was a squadron leader naturally you had to have a commander of each organization and the pilots had a officer or they were a wing man something in that category. But otherwise, I saw no discrimination. We had a line chief, of course, who was in charge of the crew chiefs because they had to have somebody with knowledge and ability to refer problems to and we had a head armour officer [?]. I guess they called him for the ordinance and the gun, but otherwise there was nothing in that line. We were informal, there was no spit and polish or sir this or sir that. It was strictly let’s get the job done, camaraderie and good will. FRANK BORING: That was excellent. ED FOBES: There was really, just as I said before, just be available if somebody wants something or needs something and try to do it or get it. We had no formal administration as such and really no need for any. So trying to describe what I did, I think the term I used before, gofer pretty well covers it. FRANK BORING: Who approached you and what did they tell you were going to be doing to go to Loiwing? ED FOBES: That came as sort of a surprise to me when I was notified I was going up to Loiwing. Another one of the members, a communications type, a navy, Ralph Sasser and I were both shipped up there. We might have been Shanghaied, I’m truly not sure. They sure didn’t have much for me to do and maybe I was getting on someone’s nerves because I was sitting around all the time. I’m not sure, but they said, no you’re going up to Central Aircraft Manufacturing Company’s Plant at Loiwing and they’ll find some clerical, administrative work for you to do up there. Whether that was a long range plan or a spare of the moment decision somebody at Toungoo made, I don’t know, but we got taken up by van or vehicle in town to Toungoo and put on a train and the next thing after a long and arduous trip we headed up in [?] �Burma. Right at the head of the Burma Road, where the Burma Road started. We spent a couple of days there waiting for someone to come down from Loiwing to pick us up to take us back up to China. I believe Bill Law [?] was the guy’s name, they called him a merit of Lashio. He looked out for us as requested. I had one interesting experience there. Leland Stowe who was a well-known reporter from the Chicago newspaper, Midwest newspapers I guess, he was out there at the time. I even had a few drinks with him and he was strictly a character. I remember a little poem he put in my autograph book. “There was a young maid from Lashio. Who was full of the well-known pashio. She would perform by the moon or at daybreak or noon, but never for less than cold cashio.” That’s stuck in my memory all these years. That poem by the way, and my autograph book I had donated to the museum in San Diego and then several years ago when they had that fire down there, it was one of the items destroyed. In fact, most of what I had from those days, I had donated down there and lost it. FRANK BORING: When was this trip to Loiwing? ED FOBES: I would say late October - I felt it was fine from my own viewpoint. Morale was good most of the time after the improvement in the food and with more and more equipment coming in. More and more of the planes coming on line and supplies coming in, from my viewpoint everything was pretty good. FRANK BORING: Tell us about your arrival in Lashio and what were you told you were going to be doing and then what actually did you end up doing? ED FOBES: In Loiwing - I got up to Loiwing, I forget who came up and got us, but someone came down in a station wagon from Loiwing and we were brought up there into the beautiful, huge club house that was owned by the Central Aircraft Manufacturing Company which was Bill Pawley's headquarters there. Put in nice, comfortable rooms - �welcomed. As far as duties were concerned, I’m sorry I don’t remember the gentlemen's name that I was placed under. He was the head accountant, bookkeeper, American. They found a spot for me in his office and I was given some routine accounting, bookkeeping chores to do and I kept working at something along that line most of the time. Then we received word that the convoy would be coming up bringing a whole bunch of food and supplies to be stored up there. So I was told when that stuff got there whenever it was shipped up to set up sort of a Bodega, warehouse and take charge of the stuff and control it. It was for future shipment into China. So there were hundreds and hundreds of hundreds of cases of foodstuffs of various and sundry type. A few cases of spirits, naturally for the ex-service personnel. So between helping out in this bookkeeping, accounting stuff and keeping track of the supplies, I kept fairly busy. We then received word while I was up there - we heard then that Gorson [?] - I forget what radio program it was - that the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor, which caused quite a stir as anyone would know, we all had friends at Pearl. Service Personnel, that were lost we found out eventually and a couple of days later, we were advised to prepare for a convoy coming up from Burma. I think there were 15 or 18 ton and a half internationals. Two of our pilots in charge - the rest were all Burmese or Indian drivers, and to load up all the food stuffs and take them up to Kunming. Well, this necessitated the trip back from Loiwing down to Lashio, Burma where we then picked up the Burma Road and then on up into Kunming which was the headquarters. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Fobes_Ed_1991-05-29_v02 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Fobes, Edwin L. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-05-29 Title A name given to the resource Ed Fobes interview (video and transcript, 2 of 5), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of Ed "Sarge" Fobes by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Fobes served as AVG Headquarters Clerk. He was stationed in Rangoon and Toungoo, Burma and Loiwing and Kunming, China. In this tape, Fobes describes his first impression of the camp at Toungoo, his duties as a member of a squadron, and his first interaction with General Chennault. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/29702bcdce709033bacb6a0dcf7a42cd.mp4 845d79d5ae5e4d33abba1783a8cc53c3 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1f3cdd916a7afca563f7f3c41d097428.pdf c291b783ca1d1e82c495a529b162d4db PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interviews Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Edwin “Ed” Fobes Date of Interview: 05-29-1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 3] FRANK BORING: Do you know what CAMCO was doing in Loiwing? What was the operation like and what was… ED FOBES: Loiwing was the headquarters for CAMCO. I believe they had been up in Hankow or somewhere else in China and had to move out of there when the Japanese had started their actions against the Chinese government so the group or Mr. Pawley, Mr. Pawley and his cohorts build this factory down there at Loiwing which was near the Burma border figuring at least that far away the factory would be safe. There wasn’t a great deal going on, I think it was practically getting phased out while I was there although there was some manufacturing of not great consequence. About all I can remember of there. FRANK BORING: Did you ever get a chance to meet with Pawley - get a chance to talk with him? ED FOBES: Mr. Pawley and I had quite a feud going on - I loved to play cribbage and so does he and we’d even bet. Of course he’s a multimillionaire and I’m just a little GI peon. So a penny a square or something like this playing cribbage but we had many, many evenings there of sitting around in the clubhouse there at Loiwing and playing crib. I found him a brilliant man naturally and it was great to know him, associate with him. As were all those people at Loiwing - they were pros. �FRANK BORING: In terms of the - uh there was a certain amount of disagreement between Pawley and Chennault in terms of Chennault's thinking that Pawley was not really living up to the contract with helping the AVG with their equipment and everything. Did you have any inkling of that? Did Pawley ever discuss any of that with you? Or did you have any idea of this friction that was going on? ED FOBES: At the time I knew nothing of it. Mr. Pawley made no mention of it at all that I can recall. He seemed dedicated to the group and what we were doing or trying to do - our target accomplishments and I rated him number one. I mean he was with us period. FRANK BORING: During that period of time, there were a few not only AVG people but people around Burma and in China who were profiteering off of some of the equipment and what not. Did you have any knowledge or contact or any observations about any of the black marketeering that was going on? ED FOBES: Not in the Loiwing area or the Toungoo area either one, not at all. I was never exposed to any of it. In fact there was no one up there in the Loiwing area you could do anything with. We were isolated. This was just a factory that had been built out in the boondocks and all that was there was the factory itself maybe clubhouse and quarters and the quarters and housing for the Chinese employees and their families. There was nothing else there. ED FOBES: There was minor black marketing going on subsequently up in Kunming area Guns were always a premium. Any kind of gun, anything that would shoot would draw a heck of a good price in value and although I was not actually involved in any of this loot shall we say after the fall of Rangoon, I knew stuff came up there. Trucks, a couple of tommy guns that I personally know of that were brought on up there and shall we say peddled on the open market but just one of those things. �FRANK BORING: What about people - we’ve heard of… ED FOBES: I have no knowledge or even a rumor of anything that he might have been involved in. Course I wasn’t that close to him and again the GI or enlisted side up to one of the wheels of the organization, I wouldn’t have been exposed. FRANK BORING: Keeton talks about Hasty you were in involved with. ED FOBES: There was a rumor that one time that Ray Hasty whom I had known from Hamilton field had sold an airplane. But here again, rumors fly. I had no firsthand information. I often wondered if he did. I often wondered where he got the money to open up a nightclub in Karachi, India later on. Whether the two activities correlated or not. FRANK BORING: It was right after this that you were transferred to Kunming. Could you give us an idea of why you were transferred there and what was your first impression? ED FOBES: Well, my transfer up to Kunming from Loiwing was predicated on getting those supplies. The convoy pulled in, we loaded up and FRANK BORING: Let’s wait on that question and finish up - with from your observation, what changed within the AVG with the knowledge that the US was at war? ED FOBES: Knowledge that the US was now involved in the war came to me at Loiwing and the only AVG member besides myself was Ralph Sasser. So the immediate reaction from the two of us was our friends that might have been on duty at Pearl - his were Navy, mine were Army and Air Corps and it would just, well what could we do? We’re here, we’re going to do the job the best we can. Had I been down at Toungoo or at the main base I would of got a reaction, I’m sure. You know the guys all felt the same way. We’re here, now that we’re in it let’s get the thing going. �FRANK BORING: Let’s now go to Kunming, and if you could give us an idea of what you found when you got there and what were your immediate duties? ED FOBES: Well, the troop [?] convoy on the international trucks with Blackie Blackburn and Ed Conant in charge was the Burma Road. It was extremely interesting. The countryside was rough, rugged. The road had just been hewed out of the mountains. There were constant repairs going on. Very few wide spots. If a truck broke down and couldn’t be started, it got shoved over the side off the mountain cliff. Course the locals then would salvage what they could out of it. That road had to stay open. Luckily our drivers were quite competent. We put up at various, local small towns or anything that when night fell or we had to take a rest. I remember specifically one small place we stayed, just like a great big old bamboo hut with a thatched roof. They served us a little food thee and the only lighting we had was spirit lamps. We had wine, served with the meal which eventually we called Jingbao juice - air raid alarm juice. And when we turned down the wine and said it wasn’t very much to our taste, they said “no problem” and they poured it in the spirit lamp. It was enough alcohol to keep the spirit lamp burning. It was an experience, but it was interesting. Of course, we crossed that same Salween River gorge and at that time, it was one was traffic and only one vehicle at a time on the bridge. It would sag as you went across and drove on up. That was quite an experience. We pulled into Paoshan where there was a training base there. Five or six of our, eventually AVG pilots, were on duty there and training Chinese Air Force personnel. Pulled into Kunming with the convoy. Our supply personnel met the convoy and directed us to the supply dump where wanted it. I was assigned into the headquarters just again as a clerk to do whatever they wanted done. It was my first association with Harvey Greenlaw and with Olga who were there most of the time in the headquarters building Southwest Yunnan University. �FRANK BORING: Could we go back just briefly to the Paoshan training base? Do you remember who some of the pilots were that were training the Chinese? ED FOBES: I know every one of the names, would recognize them - the names, but I can’t off hand remember who they were. I was one of the few that went through there because I was on the road - it was right on the Burma Road. We overnighted there. FRANK BORING: What was the difference between the base at Toungoo and the base in Kunming? ED FOBES: Well, Kunming was a much larger base than the base we had at Toungoo. It had been utilized by the Chinese Air Force and by the Chinese Civil Aviation. As a result it was larger, better equipped, although not compared to one of our states bases and all. It was - it had bomb embankments which we had never seen before protecting the operations building and some of the other items. And we had dummy aircraft spotted around the field to shall we say, detract the enemy to make them think we had more aircraft than we had. We had a hostel I think it was called, at number 3 out at the airport. Otherwise it was just another flying field. FRANK BORING: What were the accommodations like at Kunming compared to Toungoo? ED FOBES: At Kunming, we had two types. We had some quite similar to Toungoo, a little more permanent structures - a little better, a little nicer out there at Hostel 3 near the Airport where one squadron was housed. The others or most of us were at Hostel 1 at Southwest University, Yunnan University. But we were fat cats because this was old university buildings and quite nice. I remember one night there at Kunming when one of our troopers, quite inebriated was driving a jeep up and down the halls of the dorm. So it had to be pretty nice to be able to drive a jeep up and down the halls. We had excellent food there - excellent mess hall. I �remember one specific incident so thank god I don’t eat tomatoes. But this evening they came with beautiful trays of beautiful rich, ripe red tomatoes and to say the troops dug into them would be the understatement of the year. About two hours later, there weren’t enough bathrooms in the whole administration there. I think washbasins, toilets, windows everything else was being utilized. There must have been forty or fifty of the people came down with very, very violent diarrhea. It was a mess believe me. FRANK BORING: After you arrived in Kunming, what would you say from your observation point, what was the relationship between the pilots, the ground crew and the staff? ED FOBES: In most instances, the relationship between the various echelons of our organization I felt was excellent. We had some incidents. Once in a while, Chennault was one of them. He directed one of our people - they had appointed him as a police officer more or less, and he told them to go out and shake down the rooms. Well, this was badly resented, deeply resented and justifiably. I believe it was Chennault directed it now, it might have been Greenlaw, I can’t state for sure who did it. But it caused a violent eruption. Half a dozen of the troops loaded up and came up there to headquarters and started beating the devil out of Mel Cedar was the fellow who had been appointed as a police officer. That caused a great confrontation and resulted in six dishonorable discharges because naturally Chennault would not put up with it. The only other violent incident that I can recall during that period - our famed black sheep squadron commander from the Marine Corps and a couple of his cohorts got quite inebriated one night and broke into our bar, the club room there at Hostel #1 and liquidated quite a quantity of alcoholic beverages. That again resulted in a couple of dishonorable discharges. Otherwise, any organization you’re going to have some minor friction, but overall I don’t think it was a except these two specific incidents I recall, any major problem. You have resentments, you have people being slighted anytime. �FRANK BORING: Why did Chennault ask them to shake down the quarters? ED FOBES: A shake down that was performed, I don’t know the rationale behind it. Whether it was contraband or someone wanted to show their authority or what, but I do know it was grossly, deeply resented and caused this bad friction and we lost some good people. Some excellent crew chiefs were involved in that and the loss hurt. FRANK BORING: Could you give us your impressions of some of the people you got to know during this time? For example this was the first time you got to know Olga. If you could comment on them and anybody else you might have met during this time. Also the phrase you use “Olga from the Volga.” ED FOBES: The people I had to work with - the staff there at Hostel # [?], Harvey Greenlaw, Colonel Greenlaw as he was called. He seemed alright. He was apparently an old China hand. Chennault had a lot of confidence in him. Whether he discriminated or such, I wasn’t affected. They tried to find something for his wife to do and get her on the payroll. Of course, this was Greenlaw and grease a little bit. So they decided she was going to try to run a newspaper or bulletin or something like that and put her on the payroll. Her nickname, as far as I can recall, was Olga from the Volga. She was allegedly a white Russian refugee that he met up in Shanghai or somewhere in the Far East. She was sort of opportunistic. She had several boyfriends. I didn’t personally witness much of it, but I did see a bit of it and there were two ways to get ahead. You could get on the good side of Olga which two or three of them did. They got promoted out of the enlisted status and pushed up a little bit. Or if you didn’t get along with Olga, you might end up getting booted out. One of our people, a fellow I worked with quite closely, Bill Wyke I believe was in that category. He and Olga didn’t get along and Bill got the word. Otherwise, not a heck of a lot I could say about them. Williams had been out there for years, a communications man, he’s and old China hand. He seemed very �confident. We had a little British, Australian - I can’t remember his name now - another old China hand worked with the group. Seemed to be very confident - got along with the troops, that was the main thing. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Fobes_Ed_1991-05-29_v03 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Fobes, Edwin L. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-05-29 Title A name given to the resource Ed Fobes interview (video and transcript, 3 of 5), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of Ed "Sarge" Fobes by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Fobes served as AVG Headquarters Clerk. He was stationed in Rangoon and Toungoo, Burma and Loiwing and Kunming, China. In this tape, Fobes describes his experience being transferred from Toungoo to Kunming and the differences between the bases and accomodations at those locations. He also discusses his observations of the relationship among the pilots, ground crew, and staff at Kunming. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c5c27b3e1d69090194c715311cb570ba.mp4 06770c41dfbff692440c3b1d560f4460 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8ba867d4bc3fbd6e6f12e34d68f3a809.pdf a54de71cabfde1b4e43c82e47f3195c8 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interviews Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Edwin “Ed” Fobes Date of Interview: 05-29-1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 4] FRANK BORING: If you could give us your impressions of any incidents or particular things that stick out about the Chaplain, Paul Frillman? ED FOBES: Padre was a typical GI - you know preachers are all Padres or Holy Joes - was a fine man. He fit in with the group, he did everything and anything he could for any of the members. Counseling or personal or religion or whatever occurred. I was fairly close to him for a while, because he started teaching Chinese and I was interested in learning Chinese. This was at Toungoo. Unfortunately, other duties had to take precedence there and we had lessons for a week or two and whether then duties or just lack of interest came in I don’t know, but I did learn a few words of Chinese. I learned how to count from one to ten, which was an accomplishment. But Paul was very, very active. In fact, he was out of Chicago and being a Chicagoan myself, I had asked Paul if he would marry my wife and I and he said he’d be happy to if he was still in the area. But unfortunately, for me and for Paul on that, no criticism, my wife is Roman Catholic and of course, a wedding by Paul Frillman would not have satisfied the dictates of the Church, so it never was realized. I had not seen Paul or did not see him from the time we left China. FRANK BORING: What kind of relationship did you have with him during that period of time? What kind of interactions did you have? �ED FOBES: Just as anyone would have with the Chaplain. He was there for counseling if needed, he didn’t butt in or protrude in your own personal affairs unless you went to him. He was there to help. FRANK BORING: Can you comment at all on any of the supply problems? Problems in getting medical supplies. Were you involved in anything like that or did you observe any of this? ED FOBES: Medical supplies, we seem to have adequate. Doc Rich and Doc Gentry and our nurses did a wonderful job for us. Joe Stewart and Red Petach. We had two or three medical technicians took good care of us. That was up at Kunming of course. Aircraft supplies was a somewhat different situation because they were difficult to get and you had to get them up there. Although some were flown over the hump eventually. Most of the stuff, a lot of cannibalization went on. Course if an aircraft was wrecked or crashed in training or anything else, they cannibalized anything and everything to keep the other aircraft going. Attrition caught up with us eventually and the number of planes was greatly reduced through that and combat action both. I don’t think it crippled us but hurt the effort. FRANK BORING: Comment on the communication between the Chinese and the AVG. ED FOBES: Well, about the only thing I can think of as far as the Chinese Air Force was concerned and from my observation there was none. We were the Chinese Air Force. They had a couple of planes but they weren’t very active. Of course we were our own group, so that’s all I really knew. FRANK BORING: Did you know PR Chew [?] ED FOBES: I had met him, I didn’t know him intimately at all, Mr. Chew [?]. He was there with the group and worked with the group but my contact with him was negligible. �FRANK BORING: Did you have any contact at all with the Chinese? ED FOBES: The only real Chinese contact I had sorry to say was my room man. In hostel #1, there were English speaking, well-educated Chinese college students that were doing menial tasks helping us in the hostel, keeping up our rooms, doing various and sundry chores things like that and I got to know the boy that had our room. In fact, I’m very proud of a beautiful book he presented to me when I left China and he dedicated it, he said to his bosom friend, Ed Fobes. It was a history of rice and I have it right here with me. ED FOBES: I found the average Chinese, gracious, forbearing, extremely patient and down to earth good people. Like any group of people, large group of people you’ve got the good and the bad. But overall, I enjoyed them, I liked them and most that I had contact with, limited contact with, naturally, because I don’t speak Chinese and most of those that I encountered or saw didn’t speak English. They were very genial, very friendly. The only, couldn’t be considered a criticism, was during an air raid. They, like everybody else, trying to get the devil out of town. During evacuations, they would go right by our hostel heading out into the mountains and those trucks should have twenty people on had fifty or sixty of them and they slowed down for nothing. If someone fell off the back of the truck - and I seen it - the next truck just kept right on going. That was panic. FRANK BORING: Give us more of a description of these warning alerts and the actual witnessing of the bombing. ED FOBES: The last time Kunming was bombed, I believe I was still on the Burma Road, before any actual bombing took place. Subsequently, we had three or four active air raids, but our gang intercepted them before they got in or false alarms. Sometimes Johnny would be way up there at a high, high, high altitude observing and such as that - they had what they called the one ball and the two ball - �jingbao air raid. One ball it was reported and two they had been sighted and coming in and mass migration ensued. They used to fly the high, high, high got to be a nuisance, so they decided to do something about it. I believe it was a P 43 - of the old Chinese Air Force. Eric Shilling one of our pilots working with the armours, stripped it down just as much as it could and they knew about the average time of day this guy would show up and Eric was planning on getting up there at the same altitude to get him. I don’t know if it was successful or not, but I know they tried to get him. FRANK BORING: You didn’t witness the bombing in Kunming but could you give us an idea of what occurred when the jingbao's went up? What was your observation? ED FOBES: Well, I guess the only word I could really use is panic. Everyone tried to get out of the town. Get out of the outskirts, over the Mount Seashan [?], anywhere out in the fields away from the town which would naturally be target area. From what I’d seen from the ruins and such from around the town, the Japanese bombing was highly indiscriminate. They just dropped their bombs and if they hit this or that they hit the air field or government buildings or anything else and everyone was out to protect their skins and get out of there. FRANK BORING: Did you have any contact at all, perhaps in Rangoon, with the British? ED FOBES: I had no personal contact with them at all in Rangoon or at Toungoo. Later on at Kunming, some of the Anzac troops that were evacuated from Rangoon and came up through spent some time there. A couple of weeks or maybe as much as a month up there and I got to know a couple of them just you know, GI to GI nothing of a specific nature or value. FRANK BORING: Right around the period of time at Kunming, one squadron would leave, one squadron would come back. What kind of interaction �would you have with them? Were you aware of what was going on in the other parts of the AVG theatre if you will? ED FOBES: We were kept well informed, as to the operations of our various squadrons. The changing - down to Mingaladon or Rangoon the evacuation down there. I personally knew Mangleburg and Merritt, two of our pilots that were killed down there on the ground. They also came out of Hamilton and were in the BOQ when I was working there. Then they shifted the squadrons around working through Magwe and then moved a squadron into Loiwing. Here again, we were kept well updated as to what was going on and then subsequently they worked out of Hanyang and Kweilin and we at headquarters were fairly well cognizant of what was going on. Successes or problems is all. FRANK BORING: You knew that you were in a war and part of that is the danger of loss of life or limb or whatever. Were there any particular individuals that struck you personally when they got injured or killed? Your mentioned two of your friends. What was the effect in terms of your own reaction? ED FOBES: I guess the only thing I can say, on that reaction of our casualties. They were friends, they were acquaintances but as you say there was a war on and these things are to be expected. The one that hit me the most I guess, was when Johnny Blackburn was killed, because I was so close to him coming up the Burma Road, he was one of the two pilots in charge of our convoy and I like John he was a fine, fine, fine young man and his loss hit me more, and Scarsdale Jack who had been my squadron commander initially. I had a respect for all our pilots, don’t get me wrong, but I was closer to these, I knew them better and I felt it. Not that I went into great tears or anything, but just sympathy and the knowledge of the loss of a friend. FRANK BORING: There was, as time went on a certain change in the initial morale because there was not enough equipment, there was so many �Japanese to fight. There was a real shift in the morale. Did you notice that as each squadron came in and out, what was the kind of reaction from the troops as you put it? ED FOBES: Really the only thing I noted of any morale factor, might be a tiredness. The pilots were on alert practically all the time. They’d get back from one mission or one interception and get on the ground have a chance to maybe get a cup of coffee or a drink and another alarm would come up and I think that they got pretty well burned out. As far as the crew chiefs such as that, well they were on the ground. They were subject to strafing or bombing or anything else. We lost one crewman Johnny Fauth, down at Magwe, Burma - was the only enlisted casualty we had. Otherwise just the wear and tear, the tension, the stress and that started to tell on the pilots, justifiably. FRANK BORING: Did you ever experience an air raid yourself? ED FOBES: Not under any bombing or anything else. FRANK BORING: When did you first hear that the rumor started that AVG was getting phased out and was going to be incorporated into the military? Do you recall when you first heard that and what was your first reaction to the rumors? ED FOBES: Well, we were under as I recall, a one year contract. And this one year contract was to terminate on the fourth of July of 1942. So whether the group would be continued or not was questionable and there had been a second AVG planned. In fact some of the recruiting had started for it that was cancelled out. We heard then that the army air corps was going to take over. The, I guess general acceptance that the inevitable was going to happen. The group could not continue as such with our, shall we say, more relaxed attitude and without a lot of the spit and polish. We’d been briefed that some of us would be offered to stay. They would talk to all of us and make offers to stay. There was a great deal of resentment, I �think with General Bissell came on out representing the army air corps and he was sort of an unmitigated snob. If you weren’t going to do what he wanted and the army air corps wanted, we want no part of you. We’ll have the draft board meet you when you get off the plane or ship when you get back to the states and they’ll take pilots or anything else and you’ll all be drafted in as privates. And this went over like a lead balloon. These guys had fought, they’d worked, they had a lot of pride in what they had accomplished and to be treated like that was a dirty slap in the face. It was greatly resented both by the pilots and a lot of the NCO’s the enlisted men. FRANK BORING: What was your own personal plan at this time? Did you plan to stay on or did you plan on going back to the states? What was your personal reaction to Bissell? ED FOBES: My personal reaction, I didn’t want any part of him or the army air corps in China. My number one priority was to get home and get married. I was looking forward to getting back to the states, getting married and then getting back into the service. Which I did. FRANK BORING: Were you at the meeting where Bissell addressed the AVG? ED FOBES: I was at one meeting where he did address the troops and I don’t think he gave the gang any credit for what they’d accomplished. Thinking back and reading the clippings that my mother in law kept and everything, the only success the US was having and they took great pride in it, the AVG. It was a morale factor I think, for the civilian [?] in the states. At least here is someone, some American doing something right and winning. The attitude Bissell had completely negated that to the detriment of everything. Also, we had understood that when we returned to the armed forces, we’d get credit for our China time. We never received it. Whether that was part of his doings or not, I have no idea, but again, a lot of us lost a year or more that we thought we should have got credit for. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Fobes_Ed_1991-05-29_v04 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Fobes, Edwin L. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-05-29 Title A name given to the resource Ed Fobes interview (video and transcript, 4 of 5), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of Ed "Sarge" Fobes by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Fobes served as AVG Headquarters Clerk. He was stationed in Rangoon and Toungoo, Burma and Loiwing and Kunming, China. In this tape, Fobes discusses his impression of Chaplain Paul Frillman and the Chinese people while serving with the AVG. He also goes into detail about the state of panic during the bombing of Kunming, the loss of friends and acquaintances, and his plans after their one-year contract expired. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/67fb2e8a68ba25066ead59372af15eea.mp4 2c7b66567c5a74082f65370b2297a894 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/72fdc833e04442bc3316ef0682a0f3ff.pdf 07faffd0e6e68222ea982c63bc2558df PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives RHC-88 Fei Hu Films Flying Tigers Interviews Interviewer: Frank Boring Interviewee: Edwin “Ed” Fobes Date of Interview: 05-29-1991 Transcriber: Frank Boring [TAPE 5] FRANK BORING: If you could give us, from your perspective a view. You knew that the contract was ending, you knew that these guys were coming in, what was your impression of these guys coming in? What was their attitude like? What was the attitude toward the AVG? What was AVG’s attitude toward them? What was your personal recollection? ED FOBES: A few US army air corps personnel started coming in in June of 42. Flying over the bumps, mainly in gooney birds, C-47’s. They all seemed to be gung ho when they came out. They were more or less interested in what we had done. I’m using “we” in the sense of the Tigers, the group, not my individual efforts at all. They welcomed the assignment. They were hopeful of learning from our people if they got a little chance to work with. I was not directly working with any of them, but I talked to a few of them. I didn’t meet any of the pilots. There was just the ground crew that I met and talked to and they were just like any other service man. They were out there - there was a war on and a job to do and they were going to do the best they could. FRANK BORING: Did you have any contact or did you have any opinion about Stillwell? ED FOBES: A recollection. I didn’t have much concern or exposure to Stillwell or what he was trying to accomplish or if there was any conflict �there. I knew rumored at least that he and Gen. Chennault did not see eye to eye on many things. Subsequently I learned quite a bit more about Vinegar Joe when I was back out in the Far East again and I had a lot of respect for him. But you had a very strong personality in Chennault. Sincerely dedicated to his ideas, his tactics and that, and anyone that didn’t go along with him that didn’t believe in him or have the full confidence in him, he resented I believe. And Stilwell was a pretty strong character on his own and neither one of them was going to give in much to the others concepts or principles. Both were competent, both were outstanding in their own way, but different theories. FRANK BORING: Did you have any contact with or can you give us your impressions of Generalissimo Chiang Kai-shek and Madame Chiang Kai-shek ED FOBES: I had the honor of attending a banquet. Exact time I don’t recall. Put on by the Generalissimo and Madame there at hostel number 1, the university. They were wonderful people as far as we could see. Course the Gimo did not speak English so he wasn’t able to do much except smile and greet us noddingly. Madame, of course, was one of the most fabulous women who had ever lived. Spoke beautiful, fluent English. Extremely gracious, couldn’t have wanted a nicer, greater lady. They presented to each of us a silk scarf, which silk scarf was a Chop. The signature Chop of the Generalissimo - it was a gift, a memento from China. She was wonderful and they were dedicated. They were great people. She was a great advocate of the new life movement, I believe they called it in those days, education and all for the Chinese. She did everything she could for us. I think Gen. Chennault and our group were her babies in many ways and she was extremely proud of the group. FRANK BORING: She, during that banquet, made a little speech to all of you, in which she referred to as her little angels or fallen angels. Do you recall that at all? �ED FOBES: I remember the speech. I do not recall if she called us her fallen angels or her guardian angels or if she called us angels, but it was meant, I believe in all sincerity indicative of her appreciation of what the gang had accomplished and was continuing to accomplish. And yet I think there was a little tongue in cheek too when she used the term angels, because let’s face it, the gang were not all angels. Far from it. Many of us were semi outlaws you might say. We wanted to get away from what we were doing in the past and this was a challenge a way to get away from dull routines or problems that we didn’t want to have and when there was liquor around it was slopped up and there was quite a bit of hell raising around if and when the opportunity arose. FRANK BORING: What feelings do you have about the last days? There was an offer Chennault made of staying on for two weeks. There was a promise of being able to get back to the US. Could you give us your observation of what happened to you personally in terms of your leaving the AVG? ED FOBES: When the group was getting ready to disband and the 1423rd fighter group to take over, I believe, I was not interested in remaining and I had so stated. As a result, I was just getting ready to come home and get married as I said. So my whole planning was how do I get home? I had purchased a ticket for the morning of July 4th to fly from Kunming over to Dinjan in India us in the [?] Valley. And from there on it was, hitch hike, ferry command, CNAC anything at all to get back to the states. I did get out of Dinjan and got into Karachi. I think it was at Karachi when we stopped at New Delhi overnight and then on into Karachi. We were there two or three nights and I luckily got on one of the flights going back to the states. We stopped at Masarai [?] Island in Arabia. From there our next stop was Khartoum and Anglo Egyptian Sudan. From there we went into a craw on the Gold Coast. From there up into Fisherman’s lake, Liberia where we spent the night at the old Firestone Rubber Plantation. We then flew across on the old China clipper Philippine Clipper ships to �Natal, Brazil and then up to Belem, Brazil, from there up to Georgetown, British Guyana. And then [?] way, Cuba. Finally into Miami. It was an experience. It was ferry command most of the way. Again, gooney birds most of the time. Our food was questionable, there wasn’t much available. But, we made out. No complaints. And we were fortunate that Pan Am Ferry commander, they want to call them, had us all going back to the states for job interviews. This was we travelled on the house. It was certainly appreciated, because a lot of us didn’t have any money to pay for what it would have cost us. We might have still been on the boat a slow boat to China - going back. FRANK BORING: What was your personal reaction to - because when you first signed up they said that you would have - you would be given passage back to the US at the end of your contract. Could you comment on your personal reaction realization that they weren’t going to give you that? ED FOBES: The contract did stipulate such, but you have to remember that the contract we had was written during peace time and our return to the states was war time and the situation was greatly altered. I mean I imagine I resented the fact. I don’t specifically recall now. Sort of shrug your shoulders, well this is what happens, what can you do about it. You accept it. FRANK BORING: Where do you think this group that’s called the AVG - the Flying Tigers, looking back on it now, where do you think they fit in terms of the Chinese and the Americans? In terms of their history? ED FOBES: As the AVG was the brainchild of the Generalissimo and Madame in conjunction with Chennault and the important role Generalissimo and Madame played in Chinese history, I think it’s a significant factor. I hope it always remains as such, even though there is a different regime in now and it is no longer the Kuomintang or anything else in China, I think the memory lingers on. And I do feel sure or confident that the average Chinese of our �era, respects, remember and honors the work the group did, deservedly so and as important a role as anyone in the group played, or as insignificant a role as I played in the group, we were all honored to be with it and to still be remembered. And it’s one of my most proud possessions and memories. That I was a Tiger and I resent the word gold - all these ex air force people - oh I was a Flying Tiger, I see it all the time, I read it in the obituaries, I hear it here and there and doggone it, if you don’t have to hang your palm on somebody else’s. FRANK BORING: When you got back to the states, and actually even in China, you heard a little bit about being called Flying Tigers, you were always known as AVG. What impression did it have to you personally to be called in the newspapers and everything a Flying Tiger? ED FOBES: I thought it was highly descriptive. I thought it was a good term because it was significant. And our group had taken over and adapted or adopted the Tiger insignia that the British had used in North Africa. Disney had designed a Flying Tiger decal and we had it on the planes. I had stolen one of the decals and put it on a suitcase that I had a couple of the guys camouflage, painted. And we had the pin, the flying tiger pin, I still have mine. I proudly wear it. It was sort of a special recognition and I think we’re all proud of the name and we’re very proud of the boys in Germany and in the states now in the helicopter squadrons, battalions, I guess now, that have adopted our name with our permission and they certainly carried on in the recent hostilities in the mid-East and perpetuated the traditions. They did a wonderful job. ED FOBES: During the operation of the AVG in China, I think the group played a very important morale role, not only for the US to have someone doing something and winning and not getting beat. It showed China that the Japs could be beat. I think it was a morale factor for them also, not only that, but the actions of the group, the shooting down of the Japanese aircraft eliminated some of the hardships, eliminated some of the bombing and the pressure that �the people of Kunming...You have to remember that Kunming was way in the interior. It was one of the most backward provinces in China. Yet they had taken a beating in the past and anything that would enhance their morale or to help them or protect them was certainly a worthwhile contribution. FRANK BORING: Looking back now, from the perspective of your life, you’ve done a number of things in your life, you married the woman you set out to marry. You had a full life. What I’d like you to do is look back at that one year, and if you could tell me, what was it about your accomplishment. What do you feel proud about? What was it about that one year that perhaps affected the rest of your life? ED FOBES: What did the year show me, what did that year teach me in China. It’s hard to evaluate really. I was there, I was a member of the group. I did what I could, I did what I was called upon to do. I do not begrudge a day of it. I think I matured a little bit more during that time. Anyone would have. As to after effects and such as that, I enjoyed the reputation of being a Flying Tiger. Having been a Flying Tiger, I’m still a Tiger. I believe that we did a lot of good. I don’t believe I ever received any great benefits in the long run from that time, because my military career resumed soon after that and I went up the enlisted ranks. Went to the Infantry School at Ft. Benning and was commissioned. The war ended, I put my stripes back on and finally retired in 1966. But it was an experience, one that I’m proud of and that’s about all I can say. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Flying Tigers Interviews and Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, Chinese World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Description An account of the resource Collection contains original 1940s films and interviews conducted in the 1990s, documenting the history of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) "Flying Tigers." The Flying Tigers were organized by the United States to aid China during the Second Sino-Japanese War. Original filmstrips were recorded by AVG crewmen Joe Gasdick and Chuck Misenheimer, as well as Chinese Air Force Interpreter P.Y. Shu, who was assigned to assist Col. Claire Chennault as he trained Chinese pilots and established the AVG. Interviews with members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG) “Flying Tigers” were conducted by Frank Boring for the documentary film Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers, which he co-produced with Frank Christopher under the production company Fei Hu Films. The AVG Flying Tigers were a group of American aviators, mechanics, medical and administrative military personnel, led by Col. Claire Chennault to assist the Chinese Air Force in their defense against Japanese air strikes from 1941-1942. The AVG Flying Tigers also flew in defense of the Burma Road, a major Chinese military supply route. The group disbanded and returned to regular U.S. military service after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Boring, Frank Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films Research and Production Files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1938/1991 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fei Hu Films Christopher, Frank Gasdick, Joseph Misenheimer, Charles V. P.Y. Shu Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4; application/pdf Language A language of the resource English; Chinese Type The nature or genre of the resource video; text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-1945 World War II Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-88_Fobes_Ed_1991-05-29_v05 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Fobes, Edwin L. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-05-29 Title A name given to the resource Ed Fobes interview (video and transcript, 5 of 5), 1991 Description An account of the resource Interview of Ed "Sarge" Fobes by filmmaker Frank Boring for the documentary, Fei Hu: The Story of the Flying Tigers. Fobes served as AVG Headquarters Clerk. He was stationed in Rangoon and Toungoo, Burma and Loiwing and Kunming, China. In this tape, Fobes discusses his views at the time when the initial AVG contract was ending and the new US Army Air Corps personnel arrived. He also describes his feelings about the last days of the AVG, his return to the United States, and his sense of accomplishment for being a part of history as a Flying Tiger. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (interviewer) Christopher, Frank (director) Fei Hu Films Subject The topic of the resource Oral history United States--History, Military China--History, Military Veterans China. Kong jun. American Volunteer Group World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/540">Fei Hu Films research and production files (RHC-88)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8e939977fd0c1608cf22e77e97b4c48a.jpg be70e52ea7ee1630c43151d875e52a9e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Adriana B. and Peter N. Termaat collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Termaat, Adriana B. (Schuurman) Termaat, Peter N. Description An account of the resource Collection contains genealogical, personal, and family papers and photographs documenting the lives and interests of Adriana and Peter Termaat. The bulk of the materials are related to family history and genealogical research carried out by the Termaats, including research notes and materials about places in the Netherlands that were significant to the Termaat and Schuurman families, such as the city of Alkmaar. Other materials in the collection are related to the Termaats' experiences on the eve of and during the Second World War, especially the German occupation of the Netherlands and the Termaats' participation in organized resistance to the Nazis. Also included are materials that document the family's post-war life in the United States, including their public efforts to recognize, commemorate, and honor people and events significant to World War II. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1869 - 2012 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/719">Adriana B. and Peter N. Termaat collection, RHC-144</a> Subject The topic of the resource Netherlands Netherlands--History--German occupation, 1940-1945 World War, 1939-1945 World War, 1939-1945 -- Underground movements -- Netherlands Dutch Dutch Americans Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-144 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Text Image Type The nature or genre of the resource application/pdf image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng nl Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-144_Termaat_PHOT_1913-CB-Termaat-Hendrika-Harms-wedding-img711 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Foest, J. (photographer) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1913-03-11 Title A name given to the resource Cornelis B. Termaat and Hendrika Harms wedding photo, 1913 Description An account of the resource Wedding portrait of Cornelis Barend Termaat and Hendrika Harms, March 13, 1913. Subject The topic of the resource Dutch Portrait photographs Wedding photography Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/719">Adriana B. and Peter N. Termaat collection (RHC-144)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/NKC/1.0/">No Known Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9ba8c8cd448ab52e7ecf83645719bcca.m4v fc55c81336a5a17d11fdac9a58b190cd https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a47350cf0874b2c4ce6c9e727c12f8e1.pdf 141a38ee2113983ddc9f3bb2ec2a4344 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Dorothy Folkema Interviewer: James Smither Transcribed by Emilee G. Johnson, Western Michigan University Length: 35:42 James Smither: We’re talking today with Dorothy Folkema of Kentwood, Michigan, the interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans’ History Project. And Mrs. Folkema, can you begin by giving us some background on yourself, to start with, tell us where and when you were born. Dorothy Folkema: I was born in Grand Rapids, right on Knap????? Avenue, in fact, not far from, not far out of town, but we didn’t stay on that farm long, we moved into a small farm north of Lowell, in Keen?????? Township. James Smither: And what year were you born? Dorothy Folkema: I was born in 1922. James Smither: And then when did you move out of Grand Rapids? Dorothy Folkema: Well, I can’t even remember, I was just that young. James Smither: And then did you grow up out there in the country? Dorothy Folkema: Then, yes, then I grew up out there. Then we moved on a farm, and I remember that, a farm in ???? Township, and I remember taking the cattle, walking the cattle, 1:00 with my dad, and it was a small farm. And lovely neighbors and there’s where I grew up and went to grade school and, until I graduated, of course, in 8th grade. And then I came into Grand Rapids to live with my older sister and go to school. James Smither: Now, did your family keep that farm in the ‘30s, or? Dorothy Folkema: My dad, my [unintelligible], they kept that farm for a long, long time. We had a chestnut grove on the farm, and that was our way of making a good living. Paying our farm off, I’m sure, and then my folks, my father passed away. That was long after I was married. And then my mother finally had to sell the farm. James Smither: Did your father do any other work during this period, or? Dorothy Folkema: No, no. He was just a farmer. James Smither: And was it the chestnuts themselves or the wood from the trees? �Dorothy Folkema: No, the chestnuts themselves, and course, 2:00 they got a disease in them and were wiped out completely. And that was kind of sad because they were beautiful, they were a beautiful grove of trees. James Smither: And then you said, once you finished 8th grade, so did you go to high school, or? Dorothy Folkema: Then I went to, into Grand Rapids, in fact, right by the old Kent County Airport. And I stayed with, and I lived with my sister and her family and went to high school. James Smither: And which high school did you attend? Dorothy Folkema: Godwin. James Smither: And how far was that from your home? Dorothy Folkema: Oh, a mile. But my, I have a niece that’s two years younger than me, and she drove a Model T Ford back and forth to school. James Smither: Now, what year did you finish high school? Dorothy Folkema: I didn’t. I quit high school to go to work. Because I started to go with my husband, and of course, money was very short. 3:00 And jobs were very scarce and I found a job, and so I quit school to go to work. James Smither: All right. Now, when did you meet your husband? Dorothy Folkema: I met my husband in 1939. Yeah, so ’39. On a blind date. James Smither: Now, was he in school himself, or was he out working? Dorothy Folkema: He was out working. James Smither: And what kind of work was he doing? Dorothy Folkema: Anything he could get. Jobs were very hard to find. James Smither: And what kind of job did you find? Dorothy Folkema: I went to work at Veltman Cookie Company. Cause I could get a job there. James Smither: And what kind of work was that? What were you doing for them? Dorothy Folkema: We packed cookies. James Smither: Ok. What did that pay, do you remember? �Dorothy Folkema: .25 cents an hour. If I worked 54 hours, I made $17. James Smither: 54 hours? And did you do that regularly? Dorothy Folkema: Well, we didn’t get that many hours in. James Smither: And then when did you get married? Dorothy Folkema: We got married in ’41. In April of ’41. James Smither: And were you still working at the cookie company at that time? Dorothy Folkema: Mmhmm, but then I quit, because, oh, I couldn’t be working because, possibly, he could get called up for service, and it wouldn’t be a good idea I’d be working. James Smither: Well, why would that be a problem? Dorothy Folkema: It was if, well he, he claimed that he had to take care of his family. His father had passed away. Or, his father at that time was ill. And he claimed he had to keep, take care of the family to keep out of service. He did everything to keep out of service, I’ll be very frank. And it finally didn’t work. James Smither: No, it didn’t work. And we have an interview with him in our collection how he ended up on Omaha Beach on D-Day, so… Dorothy Folkema: Yep, he ended up on Omaha Beach on D-Day. 5:00 James Smither: So, basically, what you were trying to do, was sort of help with his deferment status. Dorothy Folkema: Yes, uh huh. And we stayed with his folks. James Smither: And then when did he get drafted? Dorothy Folkema: He went in in, see, ’43, September of ’43. Our daughter was born in February of ’43. James Smither: And so you were living at his parents’ house, you had a baby at home, and he gets drafted. All right. What did you do once he went off to train? Dorothy Folkema: Well I stayed with, continued with his father that had passed away in January, before our daughter was born. And then I stayed living with the family, there was three children living at home, now. And I had a family. I had it good, I had a wonderful family. �James Smither: Now, tell me about, just what, sort of, daily life was like, in that period before he’s gone. What kinds of problems or things 6:00 did you have to deal with then that people today wouldn’t be familiar with? Dorothy Folkema: Oh, I really can’t think I involved in, there was nothing. James Smither: Well, what about things, you had rationing at that time? Dorothy Folkema: I can’t remember what, possibly we did, but having three more children at home, rationing wasn’t… You couldn’t afford to buy much anyway, so. [laughs] James Smither: But did you have to use coupons to buy things like sugar? Dorothy Folkema: Yes, we had to use coupons to buy sugar. I don’t think flour, and I can’t remember, and shoes, and gasoline. Gasoline. James Smither: Now, were the kinds of things you needed for, you know, your baby or your children and so forth, were those relatively easy to get? Dorothy Folkema: Yes, I mean, I had no problem with that. I, yeah, you could get that, 7:00 not the best in the West, but, I mean, it wasn’t like you could get today. If you had a baby bottle, you didn’t throw it away. Cause there wasn’t, well, you couldn’t afford to buy a lot of things anyway. No, my baby was well-supplied with essentials that she needed. James Smither: Ok, and what did you do for fun on the occasions that you got to have any? What would you do for entertainment then? Dorothy Folkema: At that time? Go to relatives. Went to a sister’s house. We could go to a sister’s house and play cards. But we weren’t allowed to play cards at his house because they were “devil cards.” James Smither: Ok, and let’s see, did you go to church every week? Dorothy Folkema: Oh, yes, went to church every Sunday. And grandma usually took care of the baby. Let’s see, she’d go in the morning, and 8:00 I’d go at night and she’d take care of my baby. James Smither: Now, did you have a lot of friends your own age that you saw much of, or did you not see much of them when you left school, or? Dorothy Folkema: No, I didn’t see much of them after I left school. Relatives, family, and course, my folks on the farm, we went out there. And my husband loved to go out �there because he liked to hunt. And we’d go out to the farm quite often, because he loved small game hunting. James Smither: Now, did you have a radio that you listened to, or? Dorothy Folkema: Yes, we listened to the radio, course, no television, at that time. James Smither: And were there particular programs or things that you liked to listen to or you remember, or? Dorothy Folkema: Oh, I can’t remember any particular thing. James Smither: Now, do you remember how you heard about Pearl Harbor? Dorothy Folkema: Yes. 9:00 We were out, it was on a Sunday, we were out to the farm, out to my folks, and we had the radio on in the car, on the way home. That’s when we heard it. And we knew. James Smither: Now at that point did you or your husband have siblings or relatives who were already in the military at that time, or? Dorothy Folkema: No, no. James Smither: There was a draft already. Dorothy Folkema: There was a draft already, oh, there, my husband’s birthday is October 13, or October 16, and he, they had to register, and he had to register on his birthday, he, yep. That was a sad day. James Smither: Now, before he was actually called up, did he go and report different places or do physicals and things like that? Dorothy Folkema: Bigelow Field on Division Avenue, that’s where, and I got to where I didn’t even want to ride down Division Avenue. 10:00 Because there was a fear of all those, the numbers were listed. James Smither: So the numbers were listed, you say, was there the equivalent of a lottery, or? Dorothy Folkema: Yeah, to get called up! James Smither: And they were calling up pretty large chunks of each group too, a lot of people. Dorothy Folkema: Yes, but they weren’t, they called singled first and then married men with, that had a dependent. I can’t just remember how it went, but, eventually, then, he did get called up. �James Smither: So he didn’t have a particular kind of job, then, that would give him necessarily a deferment? Dorothy Folkema: He worked at Kalvinator. He was doing war work at that time. But it wasn’t, they didn’t defer him. James Smither: At a certain point they just needed enough people to come in as replacements, so he did that. All right, and then what was your response 11:00 sort of, as a family, when you found out— Dorothy Folkema: We were all devastated. That he would be getting called up and he had to go in September. James Smither: And were you following the news of the war pretty carefully, or paying attention? Dorothy Folkema: No. I ignored it. That’s how I handled it. His mother did, she followed it, and it made a wreck out of her. And I, I’m in my married little life and my little girl and, she was spoiled rotten, and made the best of it. That’s the way you did it. No help, at that time, there was no help. People get all kinds of help today, there was nothing. Nothing. James Smither: And what kind of help are you referring to here? Dorothy Folkema: Like babysitting. There was no daycare centers. There was no place to take your child. You had to go to 12:00 work. He left. And I suppose I could’ve gone back home on the farm with the folks, but there was nothing there. I vaguely drove. I hardly drove before he left, I didn’t have a drivers’ license, and I said to, I got a job at Lear’s and I hitch-hiked back and forth to work, and I didn’t drive, because I didn’t drive much, I didn’t have a drivers’ license, and I said to one of the girls at work, “I need a drivers’ license,” and she said, “Well, I’ll go with you.” Bless her heart, her name was Irma, and she went with me, down on Hall Street, to a little brick building, Snyder, I think his name was, took me for a ride around the block, didn’t ask me to park [laughs], and gave me my drivers’ 13:00 license. That’s how I got my drivers’ license. James Smither: All right, I think a lot of people who go through driver education now would think that’s a pretty good deal! Dorothy Folkema: Oh, my goodness. There was no drivers education, course, there was no cars on the road, either. James Smither: Right. And he understood that you basically had to get to work, and… �Dorothy Folkema: Mmhmm James Smither: All right, now, tell me a little about the job. How did you get the job? Dorothy Folkema: You went and put in an application. I had a friend, her name was Nellie and she needed to go to work too, and I had to, so we both went and put our application in and was hired. And oh, then, by that time, they hired everybody. Anybody and everybody. James Smither: So what kind of work were you doing there? Dorothy Folkema: I did, I wound armatures. James Smither: Can you describe that, physically, a little bit for people who don’t know what that is? Dorothy Folkema: Well, it’s a little gadget that goes in a motor, that’s all I can tell you. And you wind wires in it and it’s precision work. And it was very, 14:00 very pleasant work. Everyone was very pleasant to work with and you had a quota to get out and I really enjoyed. James Smither: So did you work in a big room with a bunch of other people? Dorothy Folkema: Oh, yeah, you had your table and chair. Table and chair and the girl brought your equipment to you and… James Smither: So did you talk to other people while you…? Dorothy Folkema: Oh yeah, you could, sure. Sure. James Smither: And about how many people working together in the same place, do you think? Dorothy Folkema: We probably had about ten or twelve. James Smither: Ok, so it’s not a gigantic… Dorothy Folkema: Well, there was people all around us in different sections working. James Smither: Right. And you had your own particular section. And what sort of people are working alongside you? Dorothy Folkema: Oh, just people like myself, some of them were single girls, some were married, husbands overseas, like myself. James Smither: But all women? �Dorothy Folkema: All women. Mmhmm. 15:00 The men, any man was young, under 18, or crippled that couldn’t go to the service. James Smither: Now were there men in other parts of the factory? Dorothy Folkema: Oh, yeah, older men. James Smither: Older men. Dorothy Folkema: Older men, beyond going. James Smither: Ok, and what did this job pay? Do you remember that? Dorothy Folkema: .75 cents an hour. James Smither: Ok, so it was a lot better than packing cookies then. All right. Now was your husband sending money home or did part of his paycheck come to you? Dorothy Folkema: Well, the government gave you $50 a month. And you got $20 if you had a child, so I got $80 a month. James Smither: So were you able to save anything at that time? Dorothy Folkema: Oh, yes! I lived on my money that I made and I, yes. Can I tell you this story? James Smither: Yes. Dorothy Folkema: We had bought 16:00 a house in May. Jane was born in February and we bought a little house in May. And it had renters in it, and we stayed, living with his mother, and kept the renters in the house. They were an old couple. And they paid $20 a month rent. So I got my $80 a month, and my $20 a month, and I put it together, and paid for the house. Yep, and then saved money after that. James Smither: Now, once your husband had headed off to go into training, did you write to each other? Dorothy Folkema: Oh yes, every day. We didn’t know what to write. I remember being so bored. What do you write every day? You go to work, you get up in the morning, you have breakfast, you go to work, you hitchhike, you get a ride with a truck driver, you get to work. It was the same old thing every day, it was so bored. 17:00 And he couldn’t write anything. He wrote practically all the time, if he could, but he couldn’t… James Smither: He couldn’t say much. �Dorothy Folkema: He couldn’t say much. James Smither: Now, when he did write to you, did his letters sometimes come back with things cut out of them? Dorothy Folkema: Oh, yeah. James Smither: Blacked out? Dorothy Folkema: About all were blacked out. James Smither: And did he also use the V Mails? Dorothy Folkema: The V Mail. That was later, a little later on and then he used V Mail. James Smither: Can you describe what the V Mail was or what it looked like? Dorothy Folkema: It was a sheet of paper and it was, I think it was photographed. And you got the photograph copy. James Smither: So it almost looks like a negative copy, sort of white on black or whatever. Dorothy Folkema: Yes. James Smither: [unintelligible] Now those hold up pretty well. Dorothy Folkema: Oh yeah, yeah. I wish I’d kept more of them. James Smither: All right, now, did it help him to get letters from you, did he appreciate that? Dorothy Folkema: Oh, yes, uh huh. I remember once incident, I wrote him a letter, if you ever come home, I’ll rub your back every night. 18:00 And so he cut that out and saved it. [laughs] James Smither: Now, did he get to come home at all? Dorothy Folkema: Oh no, no, no. Well, when he was in basic, yes. Not when he was in basic. He was in basic training for six weeks, in Stark, Florida. And then after basic training he came home, and then was going to be shipped right out. And he would’ve been shipped to Italy, but then he got pneumonia, and was in the hospital, and then came home on a convalescent furlough. And then was shipped right out from there. And then he went to England, of course, I didn’t know that, but he went to England. James Smither: Well what was it like having him home again, just a little while after he got started? �Dorothy Folkema: Well, it was a pleasure, we had fun and went visiting, and course, we had the baby and… James Smither: And then once he heads out again, how long 19:00 did it take for you to hear from him? Dorothy Folkema: It was quite a while before I heard from him, and we were going to get this little thing going where he put my middle initial, but we never could solve it. It would be Dorothy I or E, or whatever, but we never could solve it. James Smither: And that was supposed to tip off where he was. Dorothy Folkema: Yeah, where he was, but he never could tell where he was. I had no idea whether he went to Japan or whether he went to Europe. James Smither: And then, you had mentioned before, you didn’t follow the news of the war, did that change once he was in, or? Dorothy Folkema: I followed to a certain extent, but no, when you have a family at home, how can you listen to a radio that much? His mother, of course, I remember invasion morning, 20:00 they were shouting “Invasion!” on the corner and selling papers and all the invasion, we knew then he was in Europe. We knew that. We knew he was in the invasion. And that was a dread. That was a hard time. James Smither: And then how long after D-Day was it before you heard from him? Dorothy Folkema: It was probably months. But a long time. James Smither: So you really had no idea where he was. Dorothy Folkema: I had no idea. James Smither: Now was this a period when they were sending out telegrams to people which…? Dorothy Folkema: Yes, they were sending out telegrams, I think that somebody delivered a telegram. James Smither: If they were told that somebody was wounded or somebody was missing or something like that. Dorothy Folkema: Uh huh. And we had girls I worked with lost their husband. Or their husband, as mine was, 21:00 wounded. James Smither: And do you remember getting that notification. �Dorothy Folkema: Oh, yes, I was a work and luckily that day, I had drove my car. Which was a rarity because you didn’t have the gas, my tires weren’t good, and you were always afraid of a breakdown. In fact, I worked on my own car, put in a head gasket. And washed it, and to this day, I wash my own car. A girl came up to me, the lead lady and says, you’re wanted at home. Well, I knew. It was in February. And it was icy and I fell and I cut my knee, trying to get out in a hurry, and I got home and the telegram was there, that he had been wounded in both legs and right elbow. That’s all it said. 22:00 That’s what you’re left hanging with for weeks. Then I got a little card that says, “progressing well.” Finally I got a letter from him, and it says, “[unintelligible], but I’m sleeping between sheets for the first time in months.” He was in the hospital. Then he was, the hospital was bombed, while he was in the hospital, and one of the nurses right next to him was killed. James Smither: Was that in England? Dorothy Folkema: Mmhmm, that was in England, on the buzz bombs. He’ll tell you about the buzz bombs. When you heard them it was safe, when they stopped, they were landing. And he was in the hospital for three months. James Smither: So pretty much until the end of the war, then, at that point. Dorothy Folkema: Then he came out, no— James Smither: Well, at least the end of the war in Europe. 23:00 Dorothy Folkema: No, no. He was in the hospital. Then he went into inactive service, and he went into Belgium. Went into Brussels, Belgium. And he maintain?????, a sergeant to a building there, and he told about taking Eisenhower up in the elevator. And he sent, then he sent things home, sent boxes home, he even had our little girl a white fur coat. And he got acquainted with the natives there, the Belgium people and was invited for dinner, and then, of course, he had it real good. Then, the war was over and he was mustered out, to his points, by his points. And we counted points. Got so many points for being married, so many points for having a child, so many points for every battle he was in. 24:00 Which he was in the Battle of the Bulge and the Hurtgen Forest, and… James Smither: Yes, I believe he was in the First Division, which did a lot of fighting. Dorothy Folkema: He was in the First Division, Sixteenth Infantry. James Smither: And D-Day, all the way into the Battle of the Bulge, and that would add up a fair number of points. �Dorothy Folkema: But he talks, he doesn’t, he talked more of the Hurtgen Forest, he said that was the worst. Worst of the Battle of the Bulge, to him, anyway. James Smither: Right, that was particularly unpleasant fighting and it went on and on and on. Dorothy Folkema: On and on. Mmhmm. James Smither: Yeah, at least D-Day was short. Dorothy Folkema: We used to go down in Florida to a memorial for Battle of the Bulge, and all the Battle of the Bulge guys, men, were there and it was fun to hear all of them, their comments, they all had stories to tell. James Smither: Now, your husband himself wasn’t much of a talker. Dorothy Folkema: No, no, no, no. You couldn’t get much words out of him. In fact, when he came home from service, I knew nothing of what 25:00 he went through. Not a clue. He went on with his life and never said a word. He never had any hang-ups, he never had any problems, a lot of women were saying, “Oh my goodness, my husband wakes up screaming,” never had that, never. I don’t know how I could’ve handled it, if I did, I probably would’ve but I didn’t. James Smither: That was one of the things at that time, the expectation was for a lot of these men that they would stay quiet and you didn’t normally talk about that kind of thing. Dorothy Folkema: He wasn’t talkative. James Smither: He wasn’t talkative to you. Dorothy Folkema: No. James Smither: That did eventually change, though, he did start to tell his story. Dorothy Folkema: Well, he did start that, when he started, then everybody, “Well! What’s happened here?” You know, he did. James Smither: Now, what sort of effect, do you think it had on you, 26:00 to kind of go through that experience of having your husband drafted and taken off and you’re having to just change your life and go in a different work and start to raise children on your own? What kind of effect did that have on you? Dorothy Folkema: I think it grew me up. [laughs] You grow up at kind of a faster rate, but still, back in those days, women depended on their husbands for decisions, and the first thing I wrote, I, in the house, which I was renting out, the furnace went, something had to be done to the furnace, so I write to him, in service, and ask him �what had to be done, was I to get a new furnace or get the furnace repaired? Well, I get a letter back, “do what you think is best.” Well, I guess I’ve got to make some decisions here. James Smither: So did you get used to that pretty quickly? Dorothy Folkema: Quite quick. [laughs] Quite quick. 27:00 James Smither: Did you, as you were trying to do that kind of thing, I mean, you’re managing property, you’re working at a job, and so forth, was it sometimes difficult to get people to listen to you or take you seriously because you were a woman or, was that…? Dorothy Folkema: I think people, I think the whole world started to change. The whole world started to change. Women were home, doing housework and taking care of the kids and I think women started to go out to work, they knew there was a world out there for them and they were shocked. The whole world changed then. There was no more of this little mouse in the corner. James Smither: All right, you kind of had to take care of yourself and you did. Dorothy Folkema: Yeah. James Smither: Ok, now, after he came back, did you quit your job, or did you stay working? Dorothy Folkema: No. You were immediately done working the war work was done. And I think I drew unemployment for a little while, no then I didn’t go back to work and wishing for another child, 28:00 which took me six years, for this one out here [points]. [laughs] So, finally then, I had another little baby, kind of spoiled her. James Smither: Now, what did you do for child care at that point, did your…? Dorothy Folkema: You mean during the war? Why, my mother-in-law. I had it made. I got up in the morning and went to work, she took care of my little girl. James Smither: Now, were there women you were working with who had more trouble finding…? Dorothy Folkema: Didn’t, they had a terrible time. And I heard horror stories. They didn’t know what to do, they couldn’t find, they had to go to work, they couldn’t find somebody to take care of their children, and some of them were mistreated, that one woman said her father was mean to her. She had to stay home. And I mean, she didn’t get the check through to help her. And I’ve heard 29:00 a lot of horror stories. I didn’t have that. I had a wonderful family, and we had fun and on �a very occasion we went out to eat, on occasion, and my mother-in-law and I’d take a little ride—a little ride, no gas, you know—and we’d go to the drug store, which drug stores had ice cream places then, and we’d have a sundae, that was our treat. James Smither: Did you go to movies, or? Dorothy Folkema: No. Not too much, no. I can’t remember ever going to a movie. James Smither: Was that something your in-laws didn’t approve of? Dorothy Folkema: I suppose, I suppose not. And how do you get there? There wasn’t that many around. James Smither: Right, cause you’re not right in town. Dorothy Folkema: No. James Smither: Right where the theaters were. Dorothy Folkema: Occasionally, now once a month, there was a church in Godwin Heights that 30:00 had a dinner, and the girls I worked with would give me a dime for gas, they’d pitch in a dime, and course, I don’t know how much gas was, couldn’t have been very much, and we’d go out to Godwin Heights for dinner, to a church. That was a treat. A big deal! [laughs] James Smither: All right. Now, if you wanted to compare, sort of, what life was like for young families then as opposed to now, what sort of basic differences would you point to? Dorothy Folkema: There was no help then. Young families now can get food stamps, they can get welfare help, they can get all kinds of things out there for them. There was nothing. There was no help. James Smither: Yeah, this was a [unintelligible] there had been 31:00 New Deal programs and things that had gone in, I mean, there were some beginnings of a welfare system or something like that. Dorothy Folkema: Well, it started a little bit helping, but it wasn’t advertised, or you didn’t know it. Things weren’t expensive then either. I remember a doctor appointment was $6. And I always paid for the doctor, I mean, I never ever walked out of a doctor’s office without paying the bill. Never. James Smither: Well, things were more affordable then, than they are now, I expect, for that. �Dorothy Folkema: You managed. That came first. In fact, when my husband came home, my daughter had eye trouble, and I had, we didn’t have insurance, there wasn’t even a doctor then. I did some research on that one, 32:00 finally found a doctor in Grand Rapids, that would take care of it, did for years, she still has eye trouble. James Smither: Now, to think back during that period when Harold was away and you were raising your daughter and so forth, are there particular events and things that happened, particular memories that come back to you? Dorothy Folkema: Yeah, my car broke down. [laughs] Yes. It wasn’t running good and there was a gas station on the corner and that man was very helpful to me. And I was scared to drive to the gas pump. I didn’t drive very good, you know. And my brother, young brother-in-law, would take the car over and get gas, well when the car wasn’t good, he’d give us some pointers. And he said, you’re going to have to put in a new head gasket. So my little sister-in-law and I, and I think she’s probably 16, 33:00 we tore that car apart. We fixed it, we put a new head gasket in it. And that man, that gas station man, his name was Cooper, he came over and tightened the head, the bolts down for us, cause we didn’t have strength enough to tighten the bolts down. [laughs] James Smither: Well how did you know what to do, to take the engine apart? Dorothy Folkema: I don’t know, we just knew what to do. [laughs] Just, he said, you got to take the head gasket off and you have to get a new head gasket, put it on. James Smither: Well had you ever worked on any machines out at the farm or anything like that, had some idea of what an engine looked like? Dorothy Folkema: No. But she was pretty smart on that stuff. James Smither: Ok. Dorothy Folkema: My little sister-in-law was pretty smart on that stuff. James Smither: Well that is another thing that’s a little bit different, you had a lot of people in your spare time to do things like take cars apart in those days. Dorothy Folkema: Oh, well. And cars aren’t complicated like they are now. And then I’d ask different ones, people to help me, and course, I always washed the car. Did it. 34:00 You just did it. You didn’t have any choice, you just did it. James Smither: Now were there shortages on certain kinds of things, were there things you wanted that you couldn’t get? �Dorothy Folkema: Oh, yes, you couldn’t get clothes, you couldn’t get shoes. Nylons! [shakes head] Oh, that was a disaster. I stood in many a lines to get nylons. My sister-inlaw and I’d go downtown shopping, we’d had a [unintelligible] right where we’d park by the railroad tracks, and we’d go downtown shopping and stand in line to get nylons. [laughs] [unintelligible] James Smither: Did it ever work? Dorothy Folkema: Yeah, oh sure. James Smither: You had the right line at the right time. Dorothy Folkema: Yeah. James Smither: Were there other particular things that you really missed, or didn’t get a lot of then? Dorothy Folkema: No, because you didn’t have it anyways, so you didn’t miss it. James Smither: Ok. All right. Are there other things you would like to add to the story here before we close out? 35:00 Dorothy Folkema: Well, I know I stopped using sugar in my coffee. Because they gave us a little pack of sugar and I kept… I’d go down to the dime store and get a cup of, get a coffee and whenever I got coffee, I saved the packet, and my sister-in-law did too, and then we’d make fudge. [laughs] James Smither: [laughs] That’d take a lot of sugar packets. All right then. Thank you for coming in and telling me your story today. Dorothy Folkema: Well, I don’t think it’s a interesting story, but it’s a story. James Smither: Well, all the information that we’ve got here is stuff that… You never know what someone will do with this fifty years from now. 35:42 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context FolkemaD Title A name given to the resource Folkema, Dorothy (Interview transcript and video), 2009 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Folkema, Dorothy Description An account of the resource Dorothy Folkema was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan, in 1922. She left high school after three years and went to work in a factory. She met her future husband, Harold Folkema, in 1939, and they were married in 1941. When the war started, she quit her job to protect her husband's deferment status, but he was drafted in 1943 and wound up on Omaha Beach on D-Day (see his interview in this archive). She had a child to take care of by then, and discusses different aspects of home front life while her husband was away. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Women Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2009-10-27 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/411b95fdbde45cd20a8cd40bdfc583cc.m4v 6163bbe55a88053bec2fad46c346e1ce https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/115438089b1ddffbbee292b1356d4635.pdf 5b2e7a4299e31fb54617b5bb4301292f PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Name of War: World War II Name of Interviewee: Harold Folkema Length of Interview: 1hr 20mins. Pre-Enlistment (00:14)  Childhood and education (00:06) o Attended Burton School through the 10th Grade in Grand Rapids, Michigan and then joined the workforce. (00:19)  His Jobs (00:25) o Describes briefly what work was like during the Depression, how he met his wife, and married life. (00:45) Enlistment and Basic Training (01:53)  Background (01:55) o Was 21 when the draft was initiated. He got deferred for a little while because he was married until he received a letter to report and go into the service. (02:11) o Briefly describes how the draft worked and what happened once a recruit was selected. Mentions how men were put into either 4F or 4A. For Folkema, he was called into the service in 1943 and told to report to Detroit, Michigan, for preliminary physicals and testing. (03:10)   After his time here, he stayed in Grand Rapids where he waited for a notice to report. Once he received it, he went by train to Battle Creek where he was at an army camp for a week and then went by train to Florida to report for basic training. (05:09) Florida (06:20) o Went by bus to a training camp to be trained as an Army infantryman. During the course of his 13 weeks here he describes what sorts of weapons he trained with and his regular routine here. (06:31) o Mentions what his drill sergeants were like and that he received training in the usage of machine guns, carbines, .45 pistols, mortars, and hand grenades. Also �underwent under-fire exercises to prepare him for what he would face once he was overseas. (08:11) o During his training there, the men never knew where they were going to end up: the Pacific or Europe. They did however find out later that they were going to be sent to [fight against] Germany. (10:19) o During his 13 weeks of intensive training, he maintained a regular correspondence with his wife by letter mentioning how his experience was and what he was facing. Once out of basic training he went home, came back, fell sick and was in the hospital for 10 days and was on furlough again until he was shipped to his next station of duty. (11:34)  Fort Meade, Maryland (13:01) o He was soon redeployed to Maryland. Briefly describes what the camp was like here and what his regular routine consisted of. (13:11)  Journey to England (14:00) o Mentions what his feelings were on the way to England and what the journey consisted of. (14:25) Active Duty (15:22)  In England (15:26) o Arrived in Portsmouth, England where he was placed with the 1st Division as a replacement. From his comrades he found out that he was in the best division in the army. Later on he was part of the first wave to land on the Normandy beaches on DDay. Mentions that nobody knew when they were going to be pushing off for France. (15:47) o Describes briefly what training he received in England and what they did to prepare for the invasion. Mentions how they learned to transfer from a troop ship to a landing craft via a rope ladder carrying a carbine, bazooka, and a 40-pound pack. He further mentions that they would be compacted 40 men to each landing craft. (17:07)  Normandy Invasion (18:59) o D-Day (19:05)  Briefly describes what he saw and heard as the troop ships came closer to the Normandy shore as the warships fired on the beaches. As this was �going on, describes how difficult it was for many men to get on to the landing crafts via the rope ladder because the ship would be rolling up and down in the water. Also briefly describes what the mood was like as the landing crafts pushed towards the beaches (19:25)  Describes in some detail what occurred once the landing craft doors were dropped and how he and his comrades were up to water to what seemed to be up to their necks as they were being fired at with men falling everywhere around him with the screams and shouts of men dying. (25:18)  After spending [what seemed like?] hours in the water being fired at from the shoreline a nearby colonel ordered them to move forward and told them it would be better to die on the beach then in the water. As they moved towards the beaches, soaking wet, they got rid of their equipment and packs so that they would not be slowed down by the weight on their backs to reach the beaches. Slogging their way forward many of the men were killed by exploding land mines or machine gun fire. (26:31)  Once they came close enough to a pillbox they were out of range of the big guns and were able to use flamethrowers and grenades to explode them. Movement and attacking German beach defensives was done in a straight line. (29:08)  Briefly describes one encounter in some detail where he and three others volunteered to go get more ammunition from the dead on the beach. Mentions that while all this was going on that they were under heavy artillery and machine gun fire. (30:54)  They eventually made it back, distributed the ammo to the group of 10 or 12 there and dug in for the night. Describes what the events of the night were like. (33:25) o Events following D-Day +1 (34:53)  On the 2nd day of battle, he mentions that they ate K-rations salvaged from the dead. Mentions that they spent the entire first day without eating. (35:28)  As they slogged forward, Folkema mentions what the Normandy terrain was like that they fought in. All the while those men were moving forward, others were becoming casualties from exploding landmines and daily skirmishes with the Germans. Briefly describes what his mission �entailed as they were moving through the first town they made it through. (36:41)  Briefly goes into some detail of what the reactions of civilians to the Allies’ landing were like as they moved through the Normandy countryside. (40:53)  Briefly describes the different types of skirmishes they encountered facing the Germans. When faced with a German sniper in the area for instance they would call the tanks for assistance to clear out snipers and then move forward. (42:55) o The Hedgerow Country fighting (44:09)  Briefly goes into some detail about what the battle situation was like while fighting through the hedgerow country. Mentions facing off with French women sympathetic to the German cause and the Germany Army itself. (44:58)  It took them weeks to finally move out of the Hedgerow Country. The food situation during this time was eating K-rations and drinking water from streams. (46:51)  Once the kitchen staff caught up to the men he describes how the mood of the men changed after that. Further describes what the mentality of the men was like as they moved through the Hedgerows. (47:59) o Farming terrain they encountered once out of the Hedgerow Country (49:29)  Describes how French civilians reacted to the Allied presence in France and then mentions what the house-to-house fighting was like. Also, mention that time was measured in days and hours. (49:42) o Background to Battle of the Bulge/house-to-house fighting (51:28)  As they moved further towards Germany, he mentions how the fighting became fiercer. When moving forward they were equipped with light machine guns and then when taking defensive positions they would have heavy machine guns at their disposal. (52:01)  Spends a great amount of time describing the carnage on the beaches and water around Normandy. (54:03) � Briefly relates in some detail what resistance they faced while in and around St. Lo although he was stationed 20 miles from where the actual bombing was taking place in the town itself. (55:41)  On one encounter, when positioned in their foxhole in the Ardennes’ Forest he had to stop a buddy from running away from attacking German tanks. (57:02)  Describes several close encounters with German snipers in some detail. (58:00)  Describes another encounter where as they were clearing out a building they discovered a group of German soldiers who they promptly captured. Mentions that they middle-aged and older Germans would give up sooner than younger German soldiers would fight to the death. (59:32) o Siegfried Line (1:00:36)  Describes what his experience was like crossing the Siegfried Line before reaching Aachen, Germany. (1:00:45) o Battle of Aachen (1:01:35)  Describes how the fighting was house-to-house. The combat in some places consisted of hand-to-hand and other places from far away. Moving through this area they were given orders to use bayonets even though they didn’t actually use them in actual combat here except at the Battle of the Bulge. (1:02:05)  Briefly describes what the weather was like at the Battle of the Bulge and how they camouflaged themselves in different types of terrains. (1:03:20)  Describes one encounter where he and three buddies spent three days under a railroad bridge in Germany while on a reconnaissance mission separated from their unit. After three days, Allied forces moved through the region and picked them up. (1:04:55) o Moving towards Germany (1:07:25)  Once under Patton’s charge, he describes how the speed of the Army was faster. Describes some of the places they moved through during this time. (1:07:28) o Germany (1:08:09) � Goes into some detail about how he was wounded and events leading up to it. (1:09:02)  Before crossing a bridge on the Ruhr River, he stepped on a mine, upon which it blew his ankles apart and was then hauled by a buddy to a nearby half track. From here he walked back to a first aid station. (1:09:50) o Southampton, England (1:11:13)  Describes what they did for him at the way station and then his journey from Cherbourg, Germany where he had surgery in a field hospital, and then from there went by plane to Southampton, England where he had three months of recuperation. (1:11:25)  Spent much of his recuperation in a tent while area was bombed by V-2 rockets. One of the nurses he knew was deeply affected by this experience. Took two months to get back on his feet. (1:12:39) o Brussels, Belgium (1:14:15)  Was then sent to Belgium where he was attached to the Leavenworth Service. Was stationed in a shell building in Brussels where he was a maintenance sergeant over German POWs. Briefly describes what their duties were like. Also mentions that he had 85 points when the war ended. (1:14:20) After the Service (1:15:35) o Going Home (1:15:52)  Mentions that he was put aboard a victory ship for the states. Took 13 days to reach Boston, Massachusetts where upon landing he took a train to Indiana where he boarded another train for another train station. Briefly describes what the homecoming reception was like with his wife and daughter who had never seen him before that time. (1:16:46)  Celebrated the end of the war with a bowl of ice cream with a few buddies just as others were boarding ship to go overseas. (1:18:49) o Interview Ends (1:19:58) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context FolkemaH Title A name given to the resource Folkema, Harold (Interview outline and video), 2002 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Folkema, Harold Description An account of the resource Harold Folkema is a World War II veteran who served in the U.S. Army from 1943 to 1945. In this account, Folkema discusses his pre-enlistment, enlistment and training in the U.S. and England. Assigned to the 1st Infantry Division as a replacement in May 1944, he participated in the D-Day landing at Omaha Beach, and fought through Normandy, northern France, Belgium and into Germany, where he was wounded by a mine. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (Interviewer) Michigan Military Preservation Society (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2002-08-23 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/fb242b73c3521404cd66f7956818044e.mp4 9d8bcb84921613c7d4fdaa88a65ba41d https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d08ddd3886229de5412debf695d1fbbb.pdf 3a7f2ee432616d3e4717bfb7f31d7684 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Name of War: Korean War Interviewee’s Name: James Follis Length of Interview: 32 mins. Pre-Enlistment (00:30)  Childhood (00:33) o Follis was born on April 2, 1933. He does not discuss anything from his childhood but focuses wholeheartedly on his military background and experience. (00:37)  Military Background (00:39) o Served as a corporal in the Korean War. (00:40) Enlistment/Basic Training (00:44)  Why he joined (00:46) o He enlisted because he wanted to have his choice of armed service branch rather than get drafted. (00:48) o Joined up with the U.S. Army’s Security Agency at the age of 19 because he thought it would be fun. (01:13)  Where he went (01:43) o Was shipped off to Fort Riley, KS where he had his first taste of military basic training. He discusses how his instructors always yelled at him and how it was in his best interest to just listen and obey them. (02:03) Active Duty (02:40)  Korea (02:46) o Once he had completed basic training he set off for Seoul, Korea where he landed. Was moved by BMZ from Tokyo, Japan to Seoul. Spent 11 months in Korea. (03:07) o Briefly describes his job as a radar operator with twelve others and its responsibilities in some detail. (03:42)  As he mentions all their work was classified top-secret. (05:16) �o Often, he could hear the sound of battle over the next hill while he worked. (05:38) o Memorable Moments (05:50)  Landing in Seoul. (05:55)  Kept in contact with his family by letter and (06:28)  Describes the holidays they celebrated and the food they ate while in Korea. (07:01) o While radio operators like him did not face much wartime stress they were very much shunned by others for being part of the Army’s Security Agency. (08:03) o On occasion, they could hear snipers shooting and would rush to grab their rifles and go out on patrol. He only did this on one occasion. (08:47) o Describes in detail, some of the pranks he and his unit pulled while in Korea. (09:41) After the Service (11:10) o Background (11:22) o When the war was complete, Follis mentions the various hunting expeditions he went on. (11:48) o Briefly mentions a few relatives and friends who served in Korea. (12:50) o While on leave, Follis went to Tokyo for some R&R of which he spent shopping and going to the bar. (14:01) o Backs up and mentions the various places he was stationed in the U.S. such as Fort Knox, KY and Camp Gordon, GA. (14:47) o Going Home (16:47) o During his first eighteen days in Korea, Follis describes how close his unit was to the frontlines. (17:18) o When he left Korea it took him 22 days to reach San Francisco, upon which time went to the payroll office, got his check, and then flew home. Describes what other soldiers usually had to do different than him because he was an intelligence officer. (17:49) o Other Stories (19:20) �o Briefly shares what troubles, security guards like himself had with Army MPs and tells a few stories to illustrate this point. (19:33) o It came to the point, when he was attached to an infantry platoon and was kicked out because of the pranks he pulled. (21:35) o High school interviewer mentions that the grandfather was part of a rebel unit. Briefly shares what living arrangements were like in Korea. (22:15) o Adjusting to Home (24:47) o He returned to the U.S. in March and did not get married until a year later. (25:07) o Afterwards, he went back to working for 7UP Distributing Co. and worked there for the next 17 years. (26:16) o Reflection (26:37) o Describes how his military service affected his life and how it enriched the rest of his life. Also mentions how his military experience affected his parents who had a son with an FBI level clearance working as an intelligence officer in Korea. (27:30) o Interview completed (30:31) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context FollisJ Title A name given to the resource Follis, James (Interview outline and video), 2004 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Follis, James Description An account of the resource James Follis is a Korean War veteran who served with the U.S. Army's Security Agency for a period of 11 months. In this account, Day discusses his pre-enlistment years, his enlistment and training in the U.S. During his service in Korea, although close to the fighting he did not take part in the fighting, instead his work as a radio operator and security required him to work with Top-Secret classified documents Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Strong, Heather (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2004-04-08 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1b9ecc71f3aa1e4e262f060db79e67f5.mp4 b832feba65593b15a64ba6440427f060 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/01d9483668b02b15aba290be13b8e33c.pdf 9621af61c772449b308c1185e6fb2e89 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Harry L. Fortier 43:23 Background Information (00:18)  Born August 5th 1952 in Ludington, Michigan (00:19)  Served in the Army Specialist 4th class (00:20)  Due to his father’s job, the family moved often.  He had lived in East Lancing, Ionia, and Saginaw where he spend the vast majority of his youth (00:38)  He was the oldest of 9 children. There were 7 boys and 2 girls (1:09)  Being the oldest, he often had a lot of responsibility. From age 12 and up, he was called upon to take care of his siblings at times (1:31)  Attended High school St. Peter and Paul area High School, a Catholic school in Saginaw, Michigan (2:06)  Did not enlist but rather was drafted. (Vietnam had been happening for 10 years approx. 1972) (2:19)  After receiving his draft notice he had been scared due to the high number of casualties occurring in the Vietnam war.(3:30)  He used the voluntary draft which allowed him to pick when he wanted to go into service and where he would do his basic training (4:02)  He had served in the Army for 2 years (17:10)  He got married to his wife Debbie after 1 year of service (17:15) Basic training (4:17)  Took Basic training at Fort Knox, Kentucky (4:18)  He hoped that by training at this fort he would receive a military occupation that would not place him on the front lines (4:20)  Tried to avoid Fort Polk, Louisiana, or “little Vietnam”, if at all possible as many of the men who served here ended up being sent overseas. (4:50)  Ended up being a stevedore and was responsible for loading helicopters, trains, ships, ext. (4:55)  Basic training felt like harsh football training (5:15)  Basic training included training of weapons, utilities (such as gas masks and grenades) as well as following many orders (5:20)  He had witnessed some men intentionally hurt themselves or act insane so that they could be discharged. (6:00)  While working he had been exposed to Black service members from the city who he recalled would always play music they commonly heard in New York. He did not care for it. (7:20)  Arapaho and Apaches where also enlisted in the military and often these two groups would get in both physical and verbal arguments with one another. (8:00) �After training (8:40)  Was sent to Fort Bragg North ,Carolina (8:54)  Visited home once in August of that year (Approx 1973) and then returned back in September (9:10)  He spent Thanksgiving at Fort Eustis, Virginia, and Christmas at Fort Bragg, North Carolina. (9:16)  This time had been very lonely for him (10:01)  Letters (and occasionally phone) had been the only form of communication between him and his family and loved ones (11:57)  He was able to tell his family almost anything about his training and whereabouts (13:03) Feelings and opinions about training (14:00)  He wished he had maintained more contact with men he had trained with (14:10)  He felt and still feels a bond of brotherhood between himself and others who had been serving in spite of the fact that he had never been in combat (15:55)  His only regret had been knowing what he knows now he could have been a bit better of a soldier (16:50) Life After service (16:58)  After his 2 years of service he traveled back to Michigan where they began raising a family. (Approx 1975) (17:17)  Due to his inability to make very much money, he quickly joined the Army reserve. (17:26)  Served 12-13 years in the Army Reserve (17:30)  Left the Army reserve after he was being asked to take on more responsibility but did not have the time to contribute to it (17:46)  He regrets having left the Army Reserve (17:54)  After the Vietnam War was over in 1975 and when he returned from the Army the war was still a very touchy topic and rarely discussed. (18:11)  His brother-in-law was spat on when he returned home from the Army (18:45)  After serving he had a college education benefit from the military (19:32)  Went back to college and got a degree (19:40)  He used V.A. benefits for home mortgages for his first home (19:46)  In college he studied industrial electronics and got an associates in applied sciences and industrial engineering (19:28)  While in college he was also in the Army reserve and had 4 children (21:00)  Some additional training was required for service in the Army reserve (21:54)  Was an M.P. (military police) while in the reserve (22:30) Service as an M.P. (23:05)  Served as a P.O.W. camp guard (23:11)  Was trained how to transport and deal with an “unruly” prisoner (23:30) �   He enjoyed this position (24:23) Some of the men he trained with were sent into the Gulf War in 1990 to run P.O.W. camps. They said it had been nothing like the training and that the prisoners were more subordinate (24:40) He was always on the edge of going someplace but never actually was deployed (25:55) Additional Military service info (26:11)  He knew of 2 men who deserted (26:15)  He never considered going AWOL however, he did consider going to Canada (27:08)  The training he received and where he went was mostly by chance. (27:46)  By extending time of duty often one could select the type of job or training they wanted. (28:00)  He did not feel that he would have liked to extend his serve due to the probability of him serving in Germany (rumored to be very hard on family life) (29:20) Added thoughts and memories (30:20)  Often visits the Vietnam memorial (30:30)  Often visits the Korean War monument (31:28)  Feels as though the contribution that the military makes is often taken for granted (32:18)  The military taught him a lot about independence and perseverance (33:32)  Took the core values of the military very seriously and helped him in life (34:29)  The military also exposed him to the “dark underbelly” of humanity such as drugs, addiction and self mutilation (36:10)  The training and connections with people were much appreciated (38:00)  Encouraged his children to go into service (38:20)  Also encourages other youths to enlist, and thinks the life lessons of the military are very helpful (39:40) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context FortierH1230V Title A name given to the resource Fortier, Harry L. (Interview outline and video), 2011 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Fortier, Harry Description An account of the resource Harry L. Fortier grew up in Saginaw, Michigan, and was drafted into the Army in 1972. He served primarily at Fort Bragg, North Carolina, loading and unloading helicopters, and did not have to go overseas. When he left the Army at the time when the Vietnam War was ending, he experienced some of the same negative treatment that returnees from Vietnam went through. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fortier, Hallie (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings United States. Army Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-05-31 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1dbb661ca4daa308cba5c904ef96b3bc.mp3 602a83006948cb7feaa93353dd0aefb6 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/97099fc5544c9b31650eb007e53e1908.pdf ce5309c965cebd94b193f9cdde641470 PDF Text Text Tom Fosdick interviewed by Nathan Nietering and Eric Gollanek June 2, 2018 NN: All right. So this is Nathan Neetering interviewer, Eric Gollaneck, interviewer and we are here today with Charles Thomas Fosdick at the Old School House in Douglas, Michigan, on June 2nd, 2018. This oral history is being collected as part of the Stories of Summer Project, which is supported in part by a grant from the National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Program. Thank you for taking the time to speak with us today. We're interested to learn more about your family history and your experiences in the Saugatuck Douglas area. Can you please tell me your full name and how to spell your last name? TF: A full name is Charles Thomas Fosdick- F O S D I C.K. NN: And you go by Tom? TF: I go by Tom. NN: All right, let's see. Do you use any special accents when spelling or saying your name? TF: No. NN: OK. Didn't think so. So, would you like to ask the first question? EG: Yes. Tell us, you kind of came in to check out the school building. And just interested to hear more about where you grew up and experiences. TF: Well. Yeah, I've like I said, I tried to get in here before, I didn't know when it was open for the public to come in because last I remembered, it was an apartment complex. So, it was private. NN: The Old Schoolhouse building. TF: Yeah. Yeah. I grew up right next door. 112 Center Street. And my parents were the custodians in this school as long as I remember. And, just going to school here for. Kindergarten, I think through the second grade, I was in third grade at the school after they built that. NN: What were your parents’ names? TF: Well. My dad's first name was Charles. But he went by Fuzzy. All right. That was a nickname he got. I don't know when and. My mom was Josephine. NN: Okay, and they were both custodians of the school? TF: Yeah, pretty much they my dad worked second shift, so he was here during the day and then she would come over and sweep and dump the trash and stuff like that. At night, and we usually came with her, my two sisters and I. �NN: Did either of your parents have any other jobs in the community? TF: I don't think technically they did know no, but my dad... Growing up in Douglas, everybody knew everybody. So, everybody did whatever, you know. He was on the fire department. He did other stuff, just around town. So, they were both part of the Douglas Athletic Club, which was where the library is now. And he was president for a while, and they ran the summer athletic programs and stuff. They were sponsors for that. So, just that kind of stuff. NN: So you said you attended kindergarten through second grade in this building, that would have been in the mid 50s? TF: Yes. NN: OK. TF: You know, I was born in 49. NN: OK. All right. Do you still reside in Douglas? TF: No. NN: Area? TF: Well, I went through high school in Saugatuck and then I went to Navy and then after that and came home and got married, and we live on the north side of Holland right now, but I come down here a lot. NN: What service did you do in the Navy? TF: I was aircraft hydraulics mechanic. For four years, ‘68 to ‘72. NN: Where you stationed any place interesting? TF: No, not really. NN: Okay. TF: Norfolk, Virginia, and Milton, Florida, were my two main bases. But then traveled a little bit. NN: Norfolk is a large naval base, right, naval facility, shipbuilding facility area. TF: Yeah. EG: What… Tell us a bit more. Just thinking back to your childhood, other memories, you had, vivid memories of the neighborhood, the school... �TF: Well, when I was having my picture taken, I was telling the photographer that where you've got the gardens. Just off here to the side, we had a small ballpark there that we played baseball there and then, a little bit further to the west, there was a little hill with trees on the edge of the hill and on the other side between that hill and what used to be The Tara restaurant, there was another place to play ball, and that's where the older kids played. 5:07 TF: It was more of a laid out type of thing, and they would play over there, and that was pretty much all... We had the playground equipment that was on the other side of the school of Merry-Go-Round, a slide and teeter totters.And that was all that was there. NN: That was on the side toward your house? TF: Right. NN: OK. TF: And. Memory from a teeter totter I got. My cousin and I were on there one just in the summer one time, and he jumped off while I was up in the air and came down a split my head open up metal handle. [Chuckles] NN: Right. So. So you were obviously injured to some extent. Do you remember where you were taken to get patched back up? TF: Just home. NN: Back home, and that was OK? TF: At the time, Dr. Coxford was a doctor and he lived out down towards the lake shore. So that was where his office was. The hospital is across the street, across the highway, Bluestar. It's a hotel now. NN: The Kirby, yep. TF: Yes. NN: Were you born at the Kirby House? TF: Yep. NN: Were you, okay. TF: And my sisters. NN: What years were they born? �TF: Oh great. [Laughs] NN: About? TF: I have an older sister that's about two years older than me, and then a younger one was around ‘54. I think she was born. NN: Okay. And they were all born at the Kirby House? TF: Yeah. NN: Can you tell us a little bit about the fire slide on the back of the old schoolhouse? TF: The two? Yes, there was just a place that we used. We were told not to go in it, but we said it didn't matter. We did anyway and just used it as a slide, because you can go up there and there was a little platform at the top and you could sit and kind of hide from people if you wanted to. Just slide down it. You got filthy because the inside of that thing was metal and so, everything you wore up there got covered in metal dust. NN: So, do you recall sliding down feet-first or head-first or both? TF: Both, mostly feet-first, though, because there was quite a drop at the end. NN: Oh, yeah? TF: Yeah. It wasn't very close to the ground. [All laugh]. NN: So. All right, so tell us. You said you were here from kindergarten through second grade. Which teachers did you have while you were? TF: I just had Mrs. Stroud. Mrs. Stroud. She was the only one I had. The only other teachers that I remember were Mrs. Haddaway. She had the room right next door, would have been right next on the ground floor. But, I don't remember the name of the teacher that was up on top with the upper grades. Can't remember her. Didn't have nothing to do with it. So, I don't remember. But, Mrs. Haddaway stayed with the school system all the way till we consolidated with Saugatuck because Douglas was an independent and when the kids… � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Summers in Saugatuck-Douglas Collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Kutsche Office of Local History Description An account of the resource Collection contains images and documents digitized and collected through the project "Stories of Summer," supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant. The collection aims to document the twin lakeshore communities of Saugatuck and Douglas, Michigan, as they transformed through the state's bustling tourism industry and acceptance of minorities. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1910s-2010s Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Various Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a> Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Saugatuck (Mich.) Douglas (Mich.) Michigan, Lake Allegan County (Mich.) Beaches Sand dunes Outdoor recreation Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Saugatuck-Douglas History Center Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Text Language A language of the resource English Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-07_SD-FosdickT_01_2018-06-02 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Fosdick, Charles Thomas Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-06-02 Title A name given to the resource Tom Fosdick, part 1 (audio interview and transcript) 2018 Description An account of the resource The first part of a longer interview, Tom Fosdick discusses early memories about the Saugatuck-Douglas area. He describes his time at the Old Schoolhouse and playing with his friends on the school properties. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Nietering, Nathan (interviewer) Gollanek, Eric (interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Saugatuck (Mich.) Douglas (Mich.) Allegan County (Mich.) Outdoor recreation Oral history Audio recordings Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Stories of Summer project, Kutsche Office of Local History. Grand Valley State University Relation A related resource Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7cd25623c8799b02d7ca6a26c2d915ad.mp3 d0bcbe758d3b279d8925e1cd3919dfda https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8bc61e0899185a6771a7992d8d9bc30a.pdf bf59b1f90831e13949b0b58123120150 PDF Text Text Tom Fosdick interviewed by Nathan Nietering and Eric Gollanek June 2, 2018 NN: This is Nathan Neetering, and I’m here today with Eric Golloneck, and we are both interviewing Charles Thomas Fosdick. This is part two of an interview that got cut off at the beginning. Tom, can you state your full name and the one you go by for me one more time? TF: Okay. Full name, Charles Thomas Fosdick. Go by Tom. NN: All right. And we are recording today at the Old Schoolhouse in Douglas, Michigan. It's June 2nd, 2018. And we're going to pick up where we left off as best as we can. EG: We were in the break. We were talking a little bit about time in school and playing sports. You were saying that you played quite a few sports. TF: Yep. EG: in Saugatuck. TF: Well, we were talking about Ms. Haddoway, and how she was with the school all the way until it consolidated with Saugatuck and that... I was the last eighth grade class to graduate from the Douglas School after that. And seventh and eighth grade went over to Saugatuck and there was that's where I went to high school for four years and I played sports. The four sports that I played were football for a couple of years, basketball a couple of years, and then golf and baseball mostly the rest of the time. So. But we played ball. Innocent. This has nothing to do with the school but growing up in Douglas, that was what we did, us boys. We played baseball. We played something, but baseball was the thing that we played the most. TF: Friend of mine lived right across from where the school is now, and there was a vacant lot right next door. And once actually there were two vacant lots, one on one side they owned. The other one was for sale. And we played baseball in the one that was for sale and we played football in the one that they owned. [Chuckles] TF: But we would play a lot of baseball just down at the park downtown because that's been there forever, as far as I know. NN: Today, that's Barry Fields, right? TF: Yeah. NN: Yeah. Do you recall any specific coaches that you had when you were at the high school who made any impressionable memories on you? TF: The coaches that I had started out with, Mr. Winter and Jerry Kelly was another one of the coaches. And Joe Domitrz. �NN: Can you spell... Do you remember how to spell his name? TF: Well, that's not spelled the way… NN: That's why I ask. TF: I remember the first year he taught there. He wrote his name on the board and he told us all, “Don't even try to pronounce it just. This is how you say it. Just say it like this.” TF: But it was DOM I T R Z. NN: That's not how I would have expected it either. [Laugh] TF: Anyway, that was... And let's see who else did I have? Yeah, that was... Those were the main ones. Mr. Handford was the golf coach until my senior year, and then Mr. Morris was. But Jerry Kelly coached basketball and baseball. So, I had him for baseball the whole time. NN: Do you recall were there any championship years in any of those sports? TF: Well, it's... NN: How'd the team do? TF: Some well, but it's not the same as what it is not. They didn't have playoffs at the end of the season, other than basketball. But the football when you were season was done, that was it. You were done. In golf, we had some pretty good teams and we would play in the state, the regional things and stuff like that. But as far as baseball went, you when your season was done, that was done. There was no playoffs like what they've got going on now. So… TF: We had one really good pitcher when I was playing, and his name was Frank Kelly. I think he's still around here somewhere. I don't know. I see him occasionally, but just it was fun. We just played ball. That was what we did. Now all kids are on video games instead of outside playing. EG: I'm interested in maybe just step back a second. Your family's history here, were they from… longtime residents? 5:05 TF: My, mother. Her family house was just across Bluestar. I don't even know what that... there used to be a Standard Gas Station or the Shell. There's a Shell, and then across to the south, there was a Standard Gas Station, and their house was the next block behind that. And they pretty much the family all pretty much owned that entire block. Mostly because there was the house and then the whole section to the north of the house was a garden. So, we got a lot of vegetables out of that garden, strawberries. Yeah. She grew up there and my dad grew up in Fennville. EG: Okay. �TF: And where he grew up is still in the family there. It's a Centennial Farm on 58th Street. So, and I've got a cousin that lives there now. NN: So, what was your mother's maiden name? TF: Monique. NN: Monique. TF: M O N I Q U E. EG: Do you remember stories of how they ended up here in this region there or in Michigan? TF: I don't know... The Monique family, I don't know that much about, but the Fosdick family, I've got cousins that have done research on heritage and stuff, and they've traced it all the way back to the origin of the name. NN: Okay. TF: So, they started out in Massachusetts, they were part of the pilgrims that came over and then they worked their way west. And after the Civil War, then my great grandfather moved to Fennville, moved, got to Fennville, and they've been there ever since. EG: Centennial Farm. NN: That's fascinating. NN: You mentioned the Douglas Athletic Club across the street from the Douglas Union School Building. Were there any other places or institutions that you remember that may, you know, were important when you were growing up in the Saugatuck Douglas area? TF: Well, nothing that we were part of. The Masonic Hall which was pretty much next door. Three houses, three buildings down. That was about it wasn't much of anything, really. Just a small town, grocery store down by the river close to the river there. It burned a few years ago. But it wasn't a grocery store then anymore, I don't think. Not after they built what used to be Taft's. NN: There are a lot of people who still call a Taft's. TF: Probably, probably. Yes. But the grocery store that you're recalling was down Center Street towards Wayne's Bayou. NN: Right. Van Sickels. TF: Yeah. �EG: Down that river, one question we had about art schools in Saugatuck, Douglas. Remember anything about Greeson family and their school building that was down there, the art artists group? TF: Not a whole lot, wasn't really much in the arts. [Laughs] Oxbow has been out there forever. So, everybody knew about that. But as far as any other arts place, the town of Douglas has changed a lot from when I grew up. There wasn't any of the arts and crafts stores that are down there now. There was a hardware store that isn't there. Yeah. TF: The Catholic school used to be down there... Tyler's drug store was down there. And that's where the bus stopped, Greyhound. And The Tara was where the condos are now. NN: On the Bluestar Highway, correct? TF: Yep. NN: What did you do when you were growing up in the summer when school was not in session? 10:01 TF: We played ball. NN: You played all the time? TF: [Laugh] Just about every day. NN: OK. TF: We played ball. NN: Did you have any summer jobs as you were getting older? TF: We used to pick cherries in the summer. My dad had a friend that had a cherry orchard, sour cherries, and we'd go pick there. Other than that, not really. I pretty much played ball and my dad didn't tell me, make me have to go do something that would take away from that. It didn't. It never really amounted to anything. TF: But because it was like I say, things are a little different back in those days. When I got out of high school and Vietnam was going on, so college, you'd better have a specific well-intentioned major, otherwise you were getting drafted and you were going. And so, there wasn't… And he told me I would not like the Army. So, I went to Navy. [Laughs] EG: Had he served? He served in the Army? �TF: My dad? Yeah. He was in the South Pacific in World War II. EG: Okay. TF: And. They've written books about his outfit, Ghosts Among Boys. So it's... Yeah. Some of the stories that he told about that. He told me I wouldn't like it. [All Laugh] NN: So, you grew up in Douglas, you went to school in Douglas until you went to Saugatuck to go to high school. TF: High school. NN: As someone growing up in Douglas, did you go to Saugatuck for any other reason besides high school? Did you have a reason to go to that side of the bridge? TF: Uh, just for summer sports when I got older, that was all. We didn't... Again, things were a little different in those days. When people would say, you would say you were traveling somewhere and people would ask, "Well, where do you live?" TF: And we'd say, Douglas. "Oh, where's that?" TF: And we'd tell them and they'd say, "Oh, right next to Saugatuck." TF: That's on the other side of the river. And we're not the same. So, and I and I remember when I was I think I was in high school and they were talking about consolidating Saugatuck schools with the Fennville School system. And everybody knew that that was never gonna happen because the rivalry between the two town, it just wasn't going to... You weren't going to get enough votes to get that to pass. [Chuckles] Everybody one had their identity, which now, you know, they consolidated the fire stations and stuff, then the police, and now that's gone. But. Back when I was growing up, there was never even an option. You had your own identity. You were Douglas and they were Saugatuck. NN: OK. So, was there anything specific about Douglass's identity that made it especially unique, different? The best at something, the you know home of something? TF: You know, it was quieter. Saugatuck was the party town in those days. TF: When I was a senior in high school, we took a senior class trip to Mackinac Island, we went took the bus over to Detroit and got on to South American. Heard about that ship? NN: The steamship, yep. TF: And took the South America up to Mackinac Island, spent the day there and then took the ship back to Detroit and came back. And we happened to come back on Memorial Weekend. At first, they weren't even allow the busses into town because there was no place. The streets were so packed with �cars and people that they didn't think there would even be able to get to the school. And the school wasn't where it is now. So what they finally figured out a way to get them in and then they said, well, no cell phones or anything. “Your parents aren't going to be able to pick you up. You're going to have to walk to the edge of town if you don't live in the city, in Saugatuck.” TF: And that's what happened. Nobody could get in because it was just packed with people. 14:58 NN: Do you have a feel for who those people were, where they were coming from? TF: Chicago, mainly, Detroit, St. Louis, the two main places that people would come from when I was growing up here, St. Louis and Chicago. There was a place out on the Lake Shore. There was all St. Louis people. They had their own little community out there. But they are those are the two main places. NN: And everybody was in town for Memorial Day weekend. [Chuckles] TF: Yep, there was there was big party. Yeah. Just different things have changed over the years. It's more of a family friendly type of place now than what it was then. But they used to have used to the state police used to bring in a trailer and park it next to the Standard Oil Gas Station and they would run a special unit out of there on all the big weekends, Memorial Day, Fourth of July, Labor Day, because it would get very... riotous, I guess you could say. NN: Did any of the locals ever really participate in those sort of activities or was it...? TF: Yeah. Oh yeah. [Laughs] NN: Were you one of those participants, or did you…? TF: No, I tried to stay out of there. Okay. Maybe, you know, you walk through or try to drive through, if you could. I used to go to the fireworks on Venetian night. But we could see them from our backyard. So, it didn't really matter a whole lot. NN: All right. So, keeping in mind that this recording that we're doing today will be saved for a long time. There may be someone here listening to this in 50 years from now, what would you want them to know about your life in the community even right now? TF: Well, I'm not part of the community anymore, other than just coming back down to see how things are going. One of the things that I guess I've always kind of wondered about is why things... some of the stuff that they've allowed to do, have been allowed to do. Knowing what I know about some of the things, that kind of surprises me. There are houses built and a ball field behind the school now was built on a toxic runoff from a plating company. There's houses right on the top of this little runoff stream. That I don't I just don't understand how that was allowed, because... But, nobody thought about it when we went to school there, we used to walk right through the thing. [Chuckles] �NN: So that's behind the current Douglas Elementary School? TF: Yeah. Yeah. And that used to drain down into the gully is what we called it, into a creek that fed into the Kalamazoo River. But other than that, and we come. My wife and I come down every now and then and drive through the towns and stop and just look at the shops and stuff. NN: Do you have any favorite restaurants or current destinations down here? TF: Oh, the restaurants that are here now, I haven't been in. The restaurant that is on the corner right across from the ballpark. I don't know the name of it now. NN: In Douglas? TF: Yeah. It was just the Douglas Dinette when I grew up. NN: I think it's called the Everyday People Cafe now, but it had a different name then. TF: Yeah. Yeah. It was just the Douglas Dinette. And there was one another one that was out by where that little strip mall is. Was it... I don't even know the name of that. But that was Tiffany's Restaurant. That's not there anymore. And we used to when I was... My dad was a janitor, and every Saturday morning when he would get ready to go do something at the school and he'd come and wake me up, and I would be helping him do stuff at the school. And we'd always take a break at some point in the morning and we'd go to one of those two places and he'd get coffee and a donut and I'd get some milk or pop or something and a donut. 20:17 TF: And that was a standard operating procedure type of thing every Saturday morning. So. Yes. Now, the ones that we go to are in Saugatuck. It's the… we go to The Corner Bar, Wally's, Pumpernickel's. Those three places are the main ones that we go to. NN: So just circling back real quick to your father, then become the custodian at the new school and that opened? TF: Yes, he did. NN: Okay. TF: Him and my uncle. Because my mom didn't drive. So, she would have had to walk up there. So, then my uncle, Lawrence Monique, and my dad. Because my dad still worked second shift. So, he was there during the day doing stuff. And then my uncle was there at night. So, it was the same type of thing. He took care of everything during the day, then he cleaned up at night and on weekends on Saturday. Then they did the major projects if they needed to strip a floor and re-wax it or something because it was all tile. And that was done on Saturday. So, and then when they consolidated, then my �dad was a for a time a part-time custodian over at the Saugatuck School. But then that was just for a couple of years, and then it stopped. NN: Do you remember when they opened the new school? You were a student, you were in third grade, I think. TF: Yes. Mrs. Lineman. NN: Okay. Do you have any... I mean, that building is very different from the now the old school. How did that feel as a student? Was there anything particularly different that you recall from going to old new building? TF: We had a gym that we could play on when it was raining and you went into the gym and played basketball, or... Usually, we would divide it up in half, then the boys were on one half and the girls were on the other half. So that we didn't have to do. The girls that have to do what we wanted to do and we didn't have to do what they wanted to do. [Laugh] TF: But there were different things that happened at that school that were. I don't know if you'd call them unique, but they were fun at the time. Bill Allen was a newscaster for a TV station in Grand Rapids and he lived out on the lakeshore. And about one day a week, he would come in at noon. And we would arrange because the desks weren't permanent in place, they were movable, so we would form them in the shape of a U. And he would sit he would get the teacher's chair because it was on wheels and he would we would play chess and he would just play everybody. And he'd just go from board to board to board to board and just play chess all noon. So that was different. NN: Were you any good at chess? TF: No, not particularly, but it was fun. I yeah, I never I didn't really study it or anything. I played it, but it was. It didn't it wasn't one of those things where I was super competitive and had to win or anything like that. It was just fun, fun to do. NN: Sure. Okay. I think we're getting close to wrapping up here. Would you have any advice for a younger person who might be listening to this interview? Any thoughts? TF: Well, I just from my childhood and stuff, if it's anything growing up here like it was, then this is a great place to grow up, it's small. Like I said back when I grew up, just about everybody knew everybody, and you kind of looked out for each other. I hope that it's the same way now, but I don't know that for sure. But that would be nice if it would be. So other than that. Yeah. That was... It was a nice place to grow up. 25:01 NN: Good. Anything else, any other stories or anything that you'd like to share that I got to ask? �TF: That's the thing. I'll probably think of some on my way home. [Laugh] Yeah, that's there's always stuff that pops into my head that I talk to people about. Now there's a thing that we do. A bunch of us guys that graduated from high school in the same general time frame, we get together once a month for breakfast down here. And, that's always interesting, we rehash all our old memories and old stuff that we used to do. TF: One of the things that I do miss that I used to do, you used to spend a lot of time growing up after school and after sports things. There used to be a place in Saugatuck called the Soda Lounge. And we used to hang out there a lot. That was... that's not there anymore. NN: No, but I think we have a portion of the old malt machine has come to us, and it's in our collection. TF: Really? NN: Here at the History Center. TF: People, people always you know, people talk about the difference in terms from one area of the country to another where pop or soda. Well, when I was growing up, we'd go to the Soda Lounge, you got a soda, which was different than pop. So, if you wanted like a Coke or something, that was pop. But if you wanted a soda, that could be any flavor you wanted it, so... And that they would mix it right there? They would make it with one of those handle things that looked like a swan's neck, and you made a soda. So that to me, when people said soda, how are you making a soda? TF: There's just all this stuff growing up here. There is a softball team that was sponsored by the Douglas Athletic Club who used to play downtown. Used to go down, watch them, played Little League Baseball down there. And Ev Thomas used to broadcast. There was a building behind home plate that they used to put big speakers up on the roof, and he would announce the Little League Bay games or the softball games. There was always Ev Thomas. NN: Was he a local? TF: Yeah, he was a kind of a unique person. He was a real estate salesman. He's been dead for a long time and he was born on February 29th, so he was one of them guys. It was only four years old or whatever. [All laugh] NN: Yep, a leap year baby, huh? TF: Yeah. So, he always used to say he was one of the youngest captains in the army in World War II. [Laughs] He wasn't a few number of birthdays. He wasn't very old. NN: Right. All right. Well, if you think of additional stories, you know where to find us. OK. And at this moment, Tom, I will thank you so much for sharing your thoughts and your memories with us and for sharing your time today. This will conclude the interview. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Summers in Saugatuck-Douglas Collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Kutsche Office of Local History Description An account of the resource Collection contains images and documents digitized and collected through the project "Stories of Summer," supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant. The collection aims to document the twin lakeshore communities of Saugatuck and Douglas, Michigan, as they transformed through the state's bustling tourism industry and acceptance of minorities. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1910s-2010s Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Various Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a> Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Saugatuck (Mich.) Douglas (Mich.) Michigan, Lake Allegan County (Mich.) Beaches Sand dunes Outdoor recreation Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Saugatuck-Douglas History Center Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Text Language A language of the resource English Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-07_SD-FosdickT_02_2018-06-02 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Fosdick, Charles Thomas Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-06-02 Title A name given to the resource Tom Fosdick, part 2 (audio interview and transcript) 2018 Description An account of the resource The second part of his interview, Tom Fosdick describes his experiences with the school system and playing sports. He also discusses summer jobs, cross-state school trips, and his family and their role as school janitors. He also explores changes to the region. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Nietering, Nathan (interviewer) Gollanek, Eric (interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Saugatuck (Mich.) Douglas (Mich.) Allegan County (Mich.) Outdoor recreation Oral history Audio recordings Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Stories of Summer project, Kutsche Office of Local History. Grand Valley State University Relation A related resource Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives