210 24 26018 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/59b1c530f58ee9f853ccc8bbb7f1055a.mp4 1eee58c4aef5c5ebf30dc5cea7484583 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/281617373dd38e8f203ce065cf494ee2.srt d973bdbdd9be8f590998f140ef30ff21 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource COVID-19 Journals Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. University Libraries Description An account of the resource This collection of journals and personal narratives was solicited from the GVSU community by archivists of the University Libraries during the events of the 2020 COVID-19 global pandemic. During this unprecedented crisis the university closed suddenly, following federal and state guidelines of social distancing to reduce the spread of the novel coronavirus. The university closed its campuses on March 12, 2020, and quickly moved students out of campus housing. Faculty swiftly transitioned to fully-online teaching for the remainder of the Winter 2020 semester, and all campus events, including commencement, were cancelled. The purpose of the COVID-19 Journaling Project was to document the individual and personal experiences of GVSU’s students, staff, faculty, and the wider community during this time of international crisis. Some project participants were university student employees who were compensated for their journaling. Other participants were granted stipends or extra credit for submitting entries to the archives. Still others participated without any compensation or credit. The University Archives remains grateful to all who submitted journals, for helping us to understand the impact of this crisis on our community. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2020 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived University Archives. COVID-19 Journaling Project Subject The topic of the resource Epidemics Grand Valley State University College students Personal narratives COVID-19 pandemic, 2019-2020 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context COVID-19_2020-05-08_ElliottRyan_v04 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Elliott, Ryan Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2020-05-08 Title A name given to the resource Ryan Elliot video journal, Part 4 Description An account of the resource Video journal of Ryan Elliott, GVSU electrical engineering student, during the COVID-19 pandemic. In this video, Ryan gives updates about work and church. Subject The topic of the resource COVID-19 pandemic, 2019-2020 Epidemics Grand Valley State University College students Personal narratives Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived University Archives. COVID-19 Journaling Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University University Libraries. Special Collections and University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8db930010dde3b494f4aaed7df2e408a.mp4 db0693c92616a9e645c3da8b61d7b7e5 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2ce4b4fae1e1a40e658d51016630104d.srt 62145737033d6a06b3e1ba9144bd1115 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource COVID-19 Journals Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. University Libraries Description An account of the resource This collection of journals and personal narratives was solicited from the GVSU community by archivists of the University Libraries during the events of the 2020 COVID-19 global pandemic. During this unprecedented crisis the university closed suddenly, following federal and state guidelines of social distancing to reduce the spread of the novel coronavirus. The university closed its campuses on March 12, 2020, and quickly moved students out of campus housing. Faculty swiftly transitioned to fully-online teaching for the remainder of the Winter 2020 semester, and all campus events, including commencement, were cancelled. The purpose of the COVID-19 Journaling Project was to document the individual and personal experiences of GVSU’s students, staff, faculty, and the wider community during this time of international crisis. Some project participants were university student employees who were compensated for their journaling. Other participants were granted stipends or extra credit for submitting entries to the archives. Still others participated without any compensation or credit. The University Archives remains grateful to all who submitted journals, for helping us to understand the impact of this crisis on our community. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2020 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived University Archives. COVID-19 Journaling Project Subject The topic of the resource Epidemics Grand Valley State University College students Personal narratives COVID-19 pandemic, 2019-2020 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context COVID-19_2020-05-08_ElliottRyan_v05 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Elliott, Ryan Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2020-05-08 Title A name given to the resource Ryan Elliot video journal, Part 5 Description An account of the resource Video journal of Ryan Elliott, GVSU electrical engineering student, during the COVID-19 pandemic. In this video, Ryan gives updates about his upcoming wedding plans, politics, and the governor's stay at home order. Subject The topic of the resource COVID-19 pandemic, 2019-2020 Epidemics Grand Valley State University College students Personal narratives Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived University Archives. COVID-19 Journaling Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University University Libraries. Special Collections and University Archives. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3596fd846b6a5d7d4b030d561945e9f9.mp4 8eb9f7f8747a368b2c92b64aefc8603c https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a506421f7ca8be0b831986a0760321a9.pdf 54b11677847c4ffbc692de2d439bb7da PDF Text Text Ellis, Roger Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Name of War: Vietnam War Interviewee’s Name: Roger Ellis Length of Interview: (1:25:13) Interviewed by: Frank Boring Transcribed by: Maluhia Buhlman I’m Roger Ellis, I was born in Chicago, Illinois on the 18th of May in 1943. Interviewer: “What was your early childhood like in Chicago?” It was great until my dad passed away, that was when I was about nine years old. We grew up in a suburb there which was upscale I guess, river side, and a very nice neighborhood. Post war first thing I ever remember watching on T.V was the explosion at the nuclear bomb out in the Pacific, and of course that wasn’t until after World War II immediately after, and I guess you’d say it was pretty normal upbringing. I went through parochial schools there, and I was a fairly normal average kid I’d guess you say, nothing special to report there Mom and Dad and I only had one brother, older brother and we just lived a perfectly happy typical American life I guess. Interviewer: “What was high school like?” (1:43) Well, high school I experienced in California after my dad passed, my mom bundled my brother and me off and moved to California where she always wanted to live. So we ended up in a place called San Jose, California, and that’s- I finished school there, elementary you know, and then went right into prep school. I went to Bellarmine, that's a Jesuit prep school, for four years. The Jesuits beat the hell outta me cause they were pretty tough and pretty rigorous, rigor at that time spelling fists which I think no longer applies. So I learned classical Greek and Latin for four years, theology as well as all kinds of physics and chemistry, the literature and all that good stuff. Enjoyed it, I really did, a great bunch of friends I had and it was really nice, no problems at all I �Ellis, Roger loved it. My brother had a hard time, he went through Bellarmine too but he didn’t do as well as I did, he was always the athlete type, I always liked stuff like studies, and reading, and history, and literature, all that. So I didn’t mind it, I really kind of took to academics with them which please the Jesuits to no end you know. They kind of left me alone, except once in a while I gothow shall I say, naughty and since I was one of the smart ones when I got naughty they would have me push a penny with my nose around the cinder track out by the field house. The athletes when they got naughty they’d have to memorize 30 or 40 lines of Shakespeare right. So I got the cinder track nose but you know it was nothing, and back then of course there were no problems with drugs, with alcohol you know, and I never had a car in high school and I never was running around you know and that sort of thing. It was a whole different world as you probably remember back in the late 50’s and until the early 60’s when I started college. Interviewer: “Did you have any idea in high school what it is, cause you’re always being asked by teachers and what not what it is you’re going to do when you grow up. What were the kind of things you were interested in, that you thought you were going to be doing after high school so to speak? Go to college, become something else, what?” (4:23) I had two things I wanted to do more than anything, one was to be a writer, and the other was to join the foreign service. Most immediately I started as a writer, I was always good with writing so I wrote a whole bunch of short stories and things of that sort, but by the time I graduated I wanted to go onto college. It was not a question in my mind, and that would be somewhere back east I wanted one of the big ten I thought. So that I thought would help me because I liked, as I said, the notion of being overseas, traveling overseas, and I thought well foreign service sounds pretty good and I saw- I pursued that at the end of high school, as far as careers go that’s the main thing I was setting my sights on so when I got to college I chose a major in- I wanted to major in theater but the college I eventually chose they didn’t have that so I went to English, specialize in dramatic literature and that sort of thing. Interviewer: “And were you aware of what was going on in the world around that time? We’re talking about the early 60’s now that you were going to college?” �Ellis, Roger Yeah. yeah I mean I was aware, at that time I wasn’t aware of too many political things there was no, Vietnam conflict hadn’t started up yet, that didn’t start until Kennedy started heating things up. In fact when I started college I thought “Gee, it might be really fun to be an officer” you know, so at that time the university had these highly developed ROTC programs. So I went away, my first year went down to the University of Notre Dame down in Indiana and I thought “I’ll be a naval officer” just like all those movies I’d seen about World War II. It was a time when after World War II, Hollywood was cranking out a lot about everything that happened in World War II. So I thought it’d be great, I love to sail, I wasn’t very much in favor of walking around the world in the infantry and flying. So there I was, I enrolled in the naval ROTC, but then after I transferred from Notre Dame to another university the only ROTC program there was Army. So I continued in that for a year before I began to realize what the problems were around the world and especially Vietnam was starting to heat up then, I think that was about 1961, ‘62, ‘63, and then I lost interest in that and finished out my university years as an undergraduate getting more and more radicalized, and then of course that was the same time I became even more aware of the counterculture that was the early going into the mid 60’s. And through music, through pop arts, you know bands like the Beatles and others, I became aware of not just music but the social protest, the social issue. Things were heating up against the war in Asia, so that’s when I started down the road of being a lot more critical about like the war involvement and as you say becoming more and more aware of things around me. Interviewer: “Do you remember- Do you have any memory of the day Kennedy was shot?” (8:24) Yeah, I was studying overseas then, that was one of the reasons I left Notre Dame they didn’t allow any foreign studies and I knew I wanted to go overseas somewhere, so by that time- What was that ‘63? I was- spent a year in Rome the University of Loyola so I was, at that time I was in Paris on a vacation from school with my buddies there and I remember we were standing on a subway platform, metro, in Paris and a couple of French men came up and said “Hey you know your president’s just been assassinated.” I didn’t know nothing you know until we looked at a newspaper and realized, that’s how I learned about that. �Ellis, Roger Interviewer: “What was the reaction around you by the Parisians?” I don’t know, at that time I wasn’t speaking a whole heck of a lot of French, and I didn’t- I had no experience of what that meant to lose a president in mid term. I mean I hadn’t been aware of anything when FDR passed and Truman took over, but this one was pretty serious. I knew everyone thought they’re uptight and all this sort of thing, aside from that intellectual knowledge I didn’t feel anything. It wasn't any sort of anger, resentment or desire for vengeance or anything you know it was just a kind of shock. It was sort of my first big introduction to politics. Interviewer: “Yeah I was in Catholic school and like you I didn’t have any sense of- It’s the president okay I kind of get that part, but then when they had the high mass I mean it was just a huge thing.” (10:14) Oh yeah, cause he was a Catholic president we knew that but it didn’t really affect me. I was starting to get very critical of all the things the United States was involved in but- and then of course the president was assassinated following him the Southeast Asia theater started heating up. So it wasn’t really until after I graduated, about my senior year, that it became serious. Interviewer: “What did you graduate with, what was your B.A?” My B.A was in English and they called it dramatic literature. Interviewer: “So once you return back to the states, two questions: one- Returned? Interviewer: “Returned to the states.” After the Vietnam experience? Interviewer: “No, no, no, this is after you got back from Paris.” �Ellis, Roger Oh yeah, right. Interviewer: “Yeah okay so you return from back- now you’ve graduated and returned back to the states right? What were your immediate plans and then how did those plans get interfered?” (11:15) Well I wanted to keep involved with theater studies, especially theater performance, so I chose to stay at the University of Santa Clara. That’s where I earned my bachelor’s and decided to go to a master’s program in dramatic lit there which would allow me to work with some really creative people in the theater program, do plays, write plays, and do that. So I did that for two years and they wooed me by offering me a teaching assistantship for a couple years so I could actually earn money teaching in the English department, and go to school at the same time, and come out with a degree in theater. Which sounded great and that’s where I started to think “Well you know, I would kind of like that.” because in my senior year I had applied to Georgetown for the foreign service and they didn’t want me. So I figured “Ah well maybe I’m stupid.” or maybe I wasn’t groomed for this, not knowing of course that Georgetown raises all the foreign service officers to a large extent, you know if you didn’t have family connections that’s how you would- But they didn’t want a good guy from Santa Clara and all that way out west so, but as I said I was thinking “Hmm well that was a great disappointment.” and meanwhile my mother was working on me and got all her Jesuit friends working on me, “You don’t wanna go in the foreign service.” and “You don’t even want to go on to graduate school, what you want to do is you want to earn a lot of money. You want to be an attorney” You know you wanted to be a surgeon and I couldn’t see myself there because I had no head for chemistry or mathematics, all that scientific stuff the doctors did. So I finally you know just settled in Santa Clara with a master’s degree and finishing that up and then my point at the end of graduate school was “Hey, I’ll go on to big time stuff, I’ll go to Berkeley and I’ll get my doctorate in dramatic arts.” They’ve got a heck of a program up there. So that’s what I did was I applied, I was accepted and that’s when the draft caught me, and so- prior to that though was ‘67 when I was finished with my master and just ready to head out to Berkeley. By ‘67 the Vietnam conflict was really getting really stinking and there were protests all over and then as I became more politically aware as a graduate student I joined the protests, �Ellis, Roger and so it came as no great surprise that the draft would eventually enter my horizons, which it did, and it was peculiar because the friends I graduated with, from you know the university there, they all were left alone by the draft but for some reason they wouldn’t leave me alone. I think it was a lot because of my radical activity, I was involved in protests, marches there at the university and stuff like that. So anyhow I waited and tried to get free of it for a year and argued with them but that was no good. Finally I was faced with prison or the military so I said “Okay, time to, you know, go along with the United States Army.” So I did. That’s how I got in, there was additional radicalization, radical activities, after the Vietnam series but that’s how I was sort of prepared. I entered the military then in 1968, late ‘67, ‘68. Really critical of what the military was doing and so, although I took to basic training and learned a lot of skills there, at the same time I didn’t really want to be gung-ho and participate. At that point my mother would say “Oh you want to be an officer of course you do. You’ve got this college education, you’re perfect officer material.” but I didn’t want to go for that. It would’ve been extra time on my part and it would’ve meant taking a lot of responsibility for stuff that I thought was really pretty questionable, cause I had heard a lot of the horror stories coming out and all this and I don’t know that I would want to assume a leadership position once I got in the military. So I went in as a private E1, lowest on the totem pole and that’s where I started my basic training early ‘67 late ‘68. [actually late 68-early 69] Interviewer: “Where was the basic training and what was your early experience like? Walk us through getting there.” (16:28) Well it was awful, it was up in Fort Lewis, Washington, so after you know the usual, drop your shorts and bend over and get your medical stuff in Oakland, they shipped me up to Washington, and there I was at Fort Lewis and it was winter. Which was the worst time of Washington to go through basic training because it was cold, it was rainy and sometimes you’d get snow. So I had my eight weeks of basic training and another eight weeks of advanced infantry training, and we would be, you know, crawling through the mud and the rain and camping out in the woods up there freezing, and meanwhile learning a lot of the military skills. You know how to handle all the weapons, learning the military history, code of justice, you know and doing all the stuff that people do in boot camp you know. Where you peel potatoes for a while, you handle the garbage �Ellis, Roger truck, all kinds of different things you know, wax the floors of where you’re living and make sure your boots are spit-shined and all of that. It was bad you know but it was just- I didn’t mind the physical, it’s pretty rigorous you know, but it was something very new cause I had never closely associated with a lot of the people who were being drafted at the time, and you know I was- I come from an upper middle class family, I had all this elitist education for gosh sakes and suddenly there I was living around a group of folks who, for the most part, I’d say 80% of had never been to college in the inside of a classroom, and secondly they came from all over the country. We had hillbillies there, we had people from Florida, space cadets, California kids, it was you know way up in the boonies of the Dakota’s and all, and they were all young. You know in fact I was the oldest one there by the time I reached Vietnam I was like- the draft got me at 25 years old, so I was almost out of it but like I said they didn’t want to let me go I guess. Anyhow there I was, so I was older than these 18 year olds you know by about seven years, and so I mean I made friends there but you know that wasn’t part of the nonsense that 18 and 19 year olds always go through, that sort of stuff. So it was kind of alienating in that sense socially, but at the same time I- the Fort Lewis is like any other Army camp. It’s all nicely manicured, it’s sort of like middle class America with like little roads etc, and of course you do things like marching all over the place, and running, and that stuff, but up until I left for Vietnam it was a normal part of American life I would say. Except that it was uniquely devoted to training for military etc so. Interviewer: “So while you were on- during basic training did you have very much outside access to the radio, television?” (19:53) All the time, we had plenty of that, yeah. Interviewer: “So you knew things were really getting bad over there?” Things were heating up and I thought “Hmmm well I don’t have much control over where I’m going.” It was up to the gods of somewhere, the war department maybe, of where they’d sent me, and I knew we had bases overseas like I said I’d spent a year in Italy, I knew we had air bases in Italy. The fleet had come in and partied down in Naples, you know all over Germany and all of Europe was still a lot of American military bases. On the other hand there was Asia which was �Ellis, Roger getting to be a shooting war and getting much, much worse so I didn’t know where and you know, you don’t have any control over that, so yeah. Interviewer: “So when did you find out you were going somewhere?” Well at the end of basic training you get your marching orders and mine said “Okay! You’re gonna go to Asia now.” and even then I thought “Okay, the jungle is it.” I thought. Asia, I’d never been to Asia and all, the only thing I knew about Asia was some of the war movies from World War II, like I guess there’s a lot of jungle over there I don’t know, that certainly wasn’t desert, no it certainly- Wasn’t any cities, you know you see movies about Europe in World War II and stuff like that butInterviewer: “It certainly wasn’t like your training in Washington either.” (21:16) Like what? Interviewer: “Your training in Washington in the snow, and the woods, and all that.” No, no the weather was a big shocker when I got there, so okay over I went, and again I didn’t have much choice you know? Interviewer: “So where did you end up going?” Where did I end up going? They flew me to Saigon, they flew me- The air base there was Bien Hoa the big air base, and from there they put me in in-country training, as they called it, for a couple weeks so you got used to what to do about finding cobras in the jungle and keeping wounds clean, you know you’d cut yourself with a knife or something, and all the special equipment you had to know and then they assigned me to an infantry unit that was working out of Bien Hoa, and of couse we have a big air base there and it was all- That’s the flatlands of Vietnam, and we go out in the boonies and just largely secure all the area around. There were no big campaigns at that time in the southern part of the country, I got there at a time called �Ellis, Roger Hamburger Hill, which was taking place at another location in-country, and the horror stories coming out of there were pretty bad they even made films of that sort of thing but when I got in it was at the peak and starting to wind down. So I never got assigned to that fortunately because new people who come in and get thrown right into a meat grinder like that are the ones that were likely to be the first killed. It’s the people who knew what to do who’d been there a while were the ones who tended to survive. Fortunately while that was going on I didn’t have to be part of that and I stayed in the southern area of Bien Hoa for about two to three months as an infantryman, light weapons infantryman they called me. So that’s what I did, we’d just go out on foot patrols and then we’d come back, and it was mostly just boring. You spent most your time sitting around waiting for something to happen and in between the time you’re out in the field and not working in the base came, you know cleaning weapons, filling sandbags, all kinds of stuff, you were sitting around reading books, listening to the radio or the Armed Forces Network “Good morning Vietnam!” You know they always had that going on Interviewer: “Did you actually hear them?” (23:50) Oh yeah Interviewer: “Yeah, I did too.” We never got any stateside programs though, radio or T.V, they’d show the movies outside you know, we’d get those somewhat late, and of course the music coming in was always current. So we had the Beatles and the Stone and Country Joe and the Fish and all that you know, and we’d be sleeping in hooches as they called it, or in my case bunkers a lot of the time. Kind of cut off from things, but it wasn’t bad because one thing the Army learned was that if you wanted to keep up morale you fed people pretty regularly, you gave them enough down time, and you provide them with showers so you wouldn’t be living out in the field all the time you came back to a base came and the Corps of Engineers had tried to build up the base camps with a certain amount of civilized infrastructure, you had showers there, occasionally you had a mess hall. At least one hot meal a day, that sort of thing, and that’s when I would say one of the shockers, and not just the locale, but was the army that was in Vietnam, I mentioned when we in- up around Seattle and �Ellis, Roger Fort Lewis, I was exposed to a whole group of people I’d never been around before. When I got over to Vietnam I was exposed to an even more diverse group and there, that’s where I encountered people with hardly any education whatsoever. At that time, as you probably know, they were dragging the real bottom feeders of our society as much as possible. So who’s number would come up? Well that was the people of color, the kids off the street, and a lot of people who’d be in trouble with the law, which was serve time or head over to Vietnam and that was interesting because our top sergeant of my unit it was said that he was either going to life in prison from Louisiana or join the Army and become a top sergeant, and of course he chose to become a top sergeant, who wouldn’t? So that was a whole bunch of strange people, as well as a few people like me who had come through the system, somehow got snagged up in that, more or less educated and, you know but it was quite a contrast. It was a real challenge too because you had to merge, you know blend with those people if you were gonna be a military unit and I realized that pretty well because, you know you had to rely on the person next to you or behind you when things got difficult. So, but it was hard, it wasn't easy and of course I was always kind of suspect cause I was one of those elitist kids, “What are you doing here?” You know that sort of thing, but hey I was serving my time and counting my days just as much as the guy next to me so. Interviewer: “What were some of the incidents that caused you to realize that these guys maybe come from backgrounds that were…Well obviously different than yours, but some of these people may have been dangerous?” (27:25) Yeah, yeah very dangerous. Well soon as I got there the first incident, if you want, was the notion of looking out around the- where we, our base area was, all the times seeing about 30 or 40 people standing over there by the field and they’re all pretty well full armed, you know you carry a weapon everywhere, and they were mostly people of color and you know I would ask “Well what are they all doing out there?” and they were all smoking dope. You know it was opium or marijuana and the MP wouldn’t touch them, I mean you had people there who were, I mean I would wander over once and a while and see what’s going on have a smoke myself, and some of these guys were like really very strange guys and like I said they were all armed to the teeth, so the M.P’s would never touch them. If they wanted to go out in the field and get high, �Ellis, Roger okay let them do that, and you know if they cause any more trouble we’ll get them but when there’s 30 or 40 of them you’re not gonna send a bunch of M.P’s into stuff. So that was the first thing and like I said some of those guys were looking really heavy. We would also come into contact with a lot of veterans who’d been there in the field, and they had come back too, and they didn’t have much respect for anything. I mean they would wear their uniforms because you know you have to wear camo in the jungle you don’t- so you wouldn’t be seen very much, but they were pretty rancid you know, pretty raggedy. You know half the time they wouldn’t even salute because they’d been out there, and they’d come back, and they’d just be back long enough to you know get some hot chow, you know relax, and then they’d go out and they knew what they were going to. We hadn’t really done that, I mean these were the guys who they would air lift out there, they’d go on helicopters and they go way behind. I mean we’d only go out maybe five, six miles around the immediate Bien Hoa area, these guys would go 20,30,40 miles and be part of an assault force, and so they would see a heck of a lot more action then we did. For the first two or three months I was there in that role of infantry and those guys had a lot of horror stories that you couldn’t believe, but obviously they were true so you came around to believe them.” Interviewer: “What’s an example?” (30:05) Well there were stories of- the biggest horror story was a horror story that depicted your position being over run by the enemy, at which point you began to realize that yeah those things happen, and when your position got over run then it was every man for himself and usually this would occur at night, and it was hand to hand and it was not fun at all, and at times you heard that if a situation got so bad with a position they would call in air strikes, their own air strikes on the position and wipe everybody out. So I was, you know you’d say “Okay God help me if I ever get into that situation again” so that was one kind of thing. The other horror story was stories of, some of these guys who’d been out there you know longer than we had since we were relatively new in country, they would report doing things to civilians I mean sometimes they had to burn entire villages that were sympathetic to the Viet cause there was no way could separate the people, just took them out, threw them in a stockade somewhere and burned the whole village, and they would talk about- Some of them were, some of them quite honestly I thought were psychopaths. You know they would talk about torturing people to get information and stuff like �Ellis, Roger that, obviously I had never any experience with that and never any experience with civilian atrocities or what we now call collateral damage, “Well we gotta bomb this thing and geez we took out a school too.” or a hospital or whatever. That had never been part of my universe as a civilian growing up in the states I mean that, Hollywood never had any of that stuff shown and so my notion of the good, and pure, and noble, and all that aspect to the American military started to get very tarnished as I met these guys and they started talking about what went down out there, and they- but they did sober us up a lot, not so much say “Well we’re gonna be sloppy and lack discipline ourselves.” You know, but rather these guys- One of the things that struck me was these guys had weapons all over them you know, they’d have two or three combat knives, they’d have pistols you know, they’d have your standard issue assault rifle but they’d also have shotguns and all kinds of things and you know 40 pounds of grenades and different things strapped to their body. I’m thinking “Well, okay.” so that gradually as I went out more and more patrols I’d take more of that stuff with me because you never knew what would happen you know. We’d go walking through these villages where there were people all the time, I mean you never know who was inside you didn’t search every grass shack or whatever where these people live. More commonly we’d be walking along in the open cause around by Bien Hoa it’s all flat, it’s mostly a lot of rice paddy, and so you’d be walking along rice paddies and what they called little berms that divided up the paddies in the square plot and, there’d be people working out there but you’d heard the stories. (33:57) You know as soon as you pass by these simple harmless peasants who’d smile and wave at you, women and men, you’d go by and then they’d reach into the mud and pull out their assault rifle in a plastic bag and attack you from- You never knew, so I guess I just got a lot more wary, a lot more suspicious the more we went on patrol, but at that time, this was getting to be about 1968-69 they, I’d say the enemy were pretty cautious they limited, at least around where I was, they limited their attacks to night. So there are times when we would have to go out on night perimeter guard, and that continued after I got shifted out of a combat role where we went out looking for trouble, to assignment within the administrative core. Still with the infantry but you know now I was in charge of, I was put in charge of about four or five other clerks who were devoted to reporting, and that was another eye opener. I thought, before that happened, “Well, God help me I hope the bullet hasn’t been made with my name on it.” because a lot was up to chance, I mean I could dodge and duck like anybody else, but you never knew. So I wondered if I would actually make it through 12 months, �Ellis, Roger but then orders came down for me one days and sergeant said “Oh yeah you’re leaving here get your kit, take it back over to the new place.” I said “What for, what am I doing?” Says “Well you lucked out you’re gonna be administrative in the headquarters battalion.” I said “Okay.” so I went and that’s when I realized the perception of the war was a lot more important to the movers and shakers than the actual conduct of the war, and because my job was what they call a “morning report section” and in the morning report section the military got a morning report of every unit that they had in country, and that would show the number of people in your unit, the number of killed, the number of wounded, missing in action number, so they could get the numbers right, and they did this every day and we in the morning report section we typed these up, no more than three clerical errors to every form, and we had to get that information back down to Saigon to what's called Mac Five headquarters by four every afternoon. So that that could be telexed back to Arlington, and so every day they had an accurate report of how many men in the field and if they had too many they’d, you know, move an aircraft carrier out of the warzone and then say “Our numbers are down today.” you know and then they’d sail it back or whatever. So they knew who was wounded, who was not, and what the strength was of a field unit etc, and generally what was happening. So that’s what I was assigned to do for about another 11, 10, 11 months and that I was grateful for that. (37:25) They kept me at Bien Hoa for another four, five months and then they moved me up closer to the DMZ in a place called Phu Bai which was right by the DMZ, but that’s what I did. They were happy to have me because I had a, I guess you’d say a flair for paperwork, I had a master’s degree in English literature for God’s sake, but more than that I was a little bit older obviously, you know 25, 26, and I could supervise. I had some leadership there they put me in charge of three or four other clerks, young guys who also could type right and could take instruction and you know that was- So I guess you could say I ascended to a more cultivate certainly more educated class of people with job skills, skill sets than the ones out in the field, you know eating cockroaches any everything’s surviving and killing as many people as you can. So I- and so that’s what I did and that freed me up a little for doing a lot of other things. Although at night we also, we always had a full guard duty and there were, you know we were assaulted. A Charlie would be out there and then he’d try and get through your perimeter, you know cause we had helicopters there it was a full base, my particular section was in the adjutant general’s you know we were doing reports, but we were a huge base and there was a lot of firepower coming. So Charlie’d be coming you know, and so �Ellis, Roger we’d have to do perimeter stuff at night, which was the creepiest thing cause I never was one much for nights I always tended to get disoriented even in Washington and basic training that happens out on night maneuvers, and things like you know “Okay we’re gonna turn you loose now and let’s see how long it takes you to find your way back, here’s a compass.” God I would be lost in the Washington woods for God knows how long you know. So anyway I was no friend of night, I’d been out camping that’s nothing you know but now it was night and there’s people coming at you, now that’s a whole different thing. So it was quite a challenge at night, in the daytime things started to get more civilized cause yeah I had my duties, I had you know the stuff to take care of but usually we could knock out those morning reports by one o’clock or so and the rest of the day was all downtime. So I started developing other stuff I’d get some passes to go into Saigon, I would go out, I would teach orphans at one of the villages near the base, outside the wire, I would- I took up photography and learned, took a lot of photographs, you know learned how to use a dark room and so I had a lot of downtime and I wrote a lot there too. Of course at night you put it all down and you smeared your face with camouflage and got all the ammo you could carry and out you went. Sometimes you’d be out around the perimeter within a mile usually, other times- most of the time we were in bunker fortified positions waiting for bad guys to come through the wire you know. Anything outside the wire that was injun country. Interviewer: “Did you have any interactions with bad guys?” (40:58) Oh yes, we were assaulted several times and so there was that. They never got really close fortunately, I mean this was a big base so as soon as any trouble started you always had three or four helicopters in the air, and you always had all kinds tons of artillery support wherever anything was happening but nonetheless they’d come you know. Especially, the worst thing you always were afraid of was the one or two sneaking through, the guerillas you’d call them they were called sappers at the time and their main mission was to take about a 30 or 40 pound bag of explosives with them and spend three or four hours wiggling through the barbed wire. You know getting past the bunkers where the patrols were and finding your ammo dumps and your helicopters and blowing those up and that sort of thing. So we were out there watching for that every night, even when it sounded pretty peaceful you knew there were bad guys out there, and it was hard to tell cause you had you know mongeese out there running around, you had water �Ellis, Roger buffalo parading around, half the time people had opened fire on water buffalos and you know by the time the flares had come down from artillery say “Oh another water buffalo.” Okay better than Victor, Charlie, or something you know so, and there were times when there were ground assaults that we would have to- Yeah we were taking fire and we were giving fire back, but we always stopped them at the concertina wire somehow with one type of weapon or another, but the longer I stayed there by the time I got out in the 70’s it was winding down and big assaults on bases and the Vietcong and the N.V.A North Vietnamese Army they were concentrating their assaults in different ways. There were always you know those individuals, those individual assassins Warner and Ron, you’d go to Saigon for example there were always those VC on motorbikes coming around with pistols, find some G.I, shoot him up and roar off you know, but in terms of where I was stationed at the base we never had any big massive assaults by the time I got out of there, in 1970, early 1970. In fact it was alright because after finishing 12 months they said “Look, you wanna stay on for a couple more months then we’ll release you completely when you got out, otherwise you’ll have to go to army reserve meetings back in the states for two or three years.” Cause you know they wanted to keep you in country and get more work outta you so I ended up spending 14 and a half months there instead of a twelve month tour, and when I was done, I was done. No more duties to do, just benefits from military service, but I’m glad to get out. Interviewer: “So, try to give us an idea of what it felt like on the day you knew you were leaving finally.” (44:10) The day I was leaving- they would get you out of the base, whatever you were doing, about a week before to process you. You’d have to turn in your equipment, you have to get your health check, you’d have to, you know, get uniform, whatever, get to all your paperwork. God there’s always a lot of paperwork done, and they’d ship you to a holding place by the airfield, and at any one time there are about 500,000 guys just waiting for their plane. So that was your date of estimated returns from overseas service, when the plane became available you were told. So you were hanging out doing nothing for a week most- it was probably the most boring time I spent there just waiting for that airplane to reschedule. �Ellis, Roger Interviewer: “Did you talk to the other guys who were leaving?” I did, I don’t know what there wasInterviewer: “Anything to remember?” Nothing special, each of them were damn glad to get out. Interviewer: “[overlapping chatter]” I mean sure yeah, and all the way along even before that time the- probably the commonest subject of conversation was “How much time you got left?” You know and you could be either a long time you know, or you could be short time, real short time too, but the shorter time you had left in country the more nervous you got, you’re hoping “Oh I hope they don’t put me on this patrol.” or “Oh I hope I never go there again.” You know, you didn’t want to get shot in your last week or last two weeks in country that was awful, you know, but there was no particular subject of conversation about getting out on the day you got out. Except the talk was “Well what are you gonna do as soon as you get back?” and what about girlfriends right like “What happened-” “Oh well she’s no longer around.” you know or “I’m getting back to a girlfriend.” and they’d show you pictures and getting back to- get back to the world you know, no one ever knew what it would actually be like to get back to the world and that was another shock, or once it happened, but there was all the fantasy of “Oh I’m going back home, see my family, get back to my old job, well I’ll just find another girl. Boy when I see her I’m going up one side and down the other for running around with my friends.” You know, or whatever you know, just the thoughts already were kind of trying to envision what it would be like when I finally step back. (46:55) As for me I already had a plan of action because I was, like I said, I was accepted to graduate school just at the time they drafted me and I told the grad school I told Berkeley you know “Hey uncle Sam wants me can you put me on ice for a year and a half.” or whatever and they said “Sure, sure.” So I knew I was going back I’d probably, I would start the program at Berkeley in the fall and I had got out in, I think it was May or June so I you know, my path was pretty well defined. I had been married when I went in you know, which is another fun subject of conversation, so I was �Ellis, Roger going back to my wife. I’d seen her once on R&R and I was going back to a place I knew, and a program in the next couple years of grad school. I was back to the world again, I’d finally made it so in my case yeah, but at the same time it wasn’t anything you could talk about because like I say most of the enlisted men at that time they weren’t from my background, from my educational other stuff, so I wasn’t you know making a whole lot of friends and drinking buddies or anything like that, so yeah. Interviewer: “So what was the process of getting out?” Not much, they flew you back, I think it was a flying tiger and the liquor flowed on the plane, stewardesses were more than happy to, you know, cheer us up anyway they could. They landed, you got to choose where you wanted to go, now most of the time if you didn’t choose you’d go fly back and land in the same place that you flew out of the year before, so I went and chose to you know fly back to Chicago because that’s where my wife was living. So they dumped me in Chicago, that’s fine we got together and went out west again to where I was gonna go to school and see my family and all that good stuff but there was about, I would say no more than three or four days of processing. They just made sure your final papers were in order, you got your you know veterans card and all that stuff and then you were given a bit of parting cash and a bus ticket or something I guess and away you went and then that was it. Interviewer: “Was there any reaction, cause you hear stories about soldiers coming back from Vietnam-” (49:40) Well yeah that was a big one, that was a big shocker and I don’t think any of the guys I was with over there anticipated the disillusionment that would befall them when they got off because when I got off the plane there were protestors outside the airport and that was, you know 1970 and alland by then people were, you know, really getting violent and war protests all over the country so when these planes came back full of the veterans from the campaigns all those air ports there were people picketing, you know making fun of them, shouting nasty stuff, and there we were. Me, I’d come back with, even still, I had the notions in my head about World War II when they had ticker tape parades for the veterans, all the celebratory “Oh the victorious armies returned!” I �Ellis, Roger had not heard stories, I guess somehow military kept it from us I don’t know, but I wasn’t expecting all those people, you know, to be out there calling us murderers and all the rest so, and some of the guys I was with naturally they didn’t care they thought the protestors were wimpsOther “Okay, I’m just going back to be a normal person again.” In my face why, but there was a lot of that, yeah, and it was a lot of disillusion among the veterans who came back that they were greeted in such a way and I guess a lots been made of that since, there’s been a lot written about that. Interviewer: “So- but once you got out of your uniform they wouldn’t know you from-” (51:25) No they wouldn’t, especially after your hair grew back. Interviewer: “So you’re on your way to Berkley now with your wife, and you arrive in Berkley and what was Berkley like in 1970?” Well that was a cauldron of insurrection you might say, and especially with the- there were some anti war plays that they were staging also and every week there were protests and so it was like being subtly immersed in the counterculture, and the protest culture, and I confess you might say I fell victim to it, I felt very sympathetic to, I participated, and the main thing I wanted to do was, you know, do theater and do that but at the same time I was, you know, because I was a veteran and I was going to school on the G.I bill, you know, there was the, you know, I had kind of a foot in both camps. Not that I was sympathetic to the war but just that I felt really different from a lot of the protests, most of them had no military experience, and whenever there was a protest rally or march or something in San Francisco or Oakland or wherever, I’d be looking around for the grizzled guys, and they were always guys I don’t think there were any grizzled gals at that time. I guess there are now but back at that time there were no women in combat, they were all nurses. Interviewer: “Yeah they couldn’t draft them.” �Ellis, Roger No but there were volunteers over there the gals and they were in nursing for the most part. So I’d be looking at the ranks of all the protestors, and there’d be families as well as a lot of younger people, mostly younger people, but I’d be looking for the grizzled guys who look like they, you know, almost like hells angels but you could tell they were veterans because they’d be wearing parts of their uniforms, you know, like a camo hat or a uniform with the sleeves cut off, you know, and that sort of thing and just to see where they were coming from. So I didn’t feel kind of alone being a veteran but also in the protest march, there was a number of them, veterans that were just really unhappy with it looking to participate in that. Interviewer: “How did they react to you being a veteran?” (54:00) No problem they were veterans themselves, as long as you were in the march you were one of them, you know. I guess as a veteran I was a little more experienced, a little more savvy about what would happen when you were in a march because that was the time when Ronald Reagan was governor of California, and he was not hesitant at all to just send in National Guard at us and tear gas and all the rest the sheriff’s cars with tear gas. So, you know, when I could see that coming I knew I would wanna separate myself from where the action was which is something I probably learned over in Vietnam. So I didn’t get beat up, or walloped, or tossed in jail like a lot of the others did. Interviewer: “What was your attitude, here you are you didn’t want to go there to begin with, you realize actually- you come to realize that you didn’t really know why you were there and then you finally come home and you have something like the governor, Reagan, basically saying that you’re a horrible person and you should be proud to go out and do these. What was your attitude towards the government, so to speak, who was sending you there and then when you came back this is what they were treating you- this is how they were treating you.” Well at first I knew very much why we were there, as soon as I got drafted I was thinking. I started to learn all the different reasons why this might be so, you know. There was the old domino theory of “Oh well we can’t let Vietnam fall.” there was the patriotism theory, “We’re �Ellis, Roger doing this cause we never lost a war.” and then there- By the time I got out that all seemed pretty hollow and I was beginning to realize how crass it was, like for example when I was over in Vietnam, I noticed there was pretty much one or only two construction companies with contracts to do all the building and heavy lifting and all, and I’m think “Well why would just those construction companies get in this? Who’s-” and then I started asking “Who’s delivering all this oil?” It took fantastic amounts of oil, gasoline, aviation fuel to run that sort of thing and I’m thinking “Hmmm that’s probably getting to be expensive.” and of course while I was over there the notion was if you could, you know, drop a $5000 bomb on somebody that’s better than losing any life because you didn’t want to lose lives that always looked bad and so the amount of ammunition and ordinance that would, you know, blown up. Just that got to be, I got to realize that was a heck of a lot of money too, so I started to get more and more cynical about the economic underpinnings of the war and wondering who was benefiting by it. By the time I got back I started looking more into that, and of course lots had been done on that too. So when I did get back and, you know, there was all this, there was all this protests going on and all. I understood that whoever we were, we were protesting, we were going against the mainstream, and we were going against a really big mainstream and stopping the war was not very easy. (57:50) It took a number of years so, but I knew marches counted and I had no trouble benefitting from a lot of that as a veteran, like I said I got the G.I bill benefits. That’s fine I thought “Hey I’ve earned it.” If nothing else and so I wouldn’t say I was conflicted, I realized that I had participated in something because I had to, and now I had a choice that I could join in opposition with what looked to be millions of others and not just in the United States. So I knew this was a domestic conflict but I didn’t feel much personal conflict of that, it was just somebody from a different walk of life like a veteran protesting the veteran service and someone elseBecause a lot of people, as I said in these protest marches, were older, they were families, they may have had military service themselves and felt that the military had been betrayed and, you know, was doing terrible things now and that’s why they were in the protest. So in any case I was pretty much surrounded by fellow radicals like myself, so I didn’t worry too much about that. Interviewer: “As the war wound down, especially as the end of it was just a mess, did you have any thoughts about- I mean I remember seeing huge aircraft carriers where they were �Ellis, Roger just throwing helicopters off the side into the water. Of course the fall of Saigon, my father was actually part of the United Nations after he was out in that area, and we knew people who were actually walking up those stairs to get into the helicopter. What do those images do for you in particular or do they have any effect at all?” By that time they had no effect, that was about ‘73 and I understood everything that was happening. Yeah getting those people, the last ones, out of Saigon there was a big to-do about that, the helicopters landing on the embassy roof, the thousands of Vietnamese trying to grab on and get liberated, I understood where that was coming from.The Vietcong were not a bunch of nice people they weren’t going to be very fair when they took over, you knew there was going to be a lot of blood letting and people were just running for their lives wherever they could including trying to get into the American helicopters and other airplanes. That didn’t surprise me, the stuff of pushing airplanes off aircraft carriers well I understood that, you know, whatever could make the flight out of Saigon or wherever and get on an aircraft carrier, mostly helicopters, there were just too many of them you had to get rid of them, throw them over the side, and that was part of the overall waste which is something I began to see when I was over there. Like I said we were blowing off a lot of ammunition we- Any military base over there, it was incredible the amount of junk and garbage that had amassed by the time I got to see it, the war was going on five, six, seven years. There were barrels of Agent Orange that had been left there years ago leaking into the ground, there was all kinds of shipping containers, you know those things, trash heaps, immense stuff, and equipment, busted down equipment. (1:01:41) Trucks, tanks you name it, armored personnel carriers not to mention the weaponry around, you know, and you weren’t gonna take that with you. Especially at the end because everything came all at once at the end, relatively speaking, wasn’t like you could go in Kuwait and say “Okay we’re gonna gently wind down and get some of this stuff back.” No, we had a run from the enemy coming right into Saigon and running over anyway. We just left a lot of it. Interviewer: “Paid for by the tax dollars.” Oh yeah. �Ellis, Roger Interviewer: “That’s who made the money, that’s the people’s money that’s the thing.” Yeah it was the war material contractors right, the same way it is now, but it was true we left a lot of it behind and on our way out, and I was part of this too there were some things they knew they weren’t gonna leave and they weren’t gonna take with us so we just spiked them. We just, you know, burned them up, blew them up, burned them, whatever but when the very end came yeah it was just throw everything in the South China sea push it over, you know. Burn this down, explode everything, I could understand that yeah, tremendous waste not just of treasure but of blood, you know, that was the- That was even a worse thing he was shocked by the amount of dollars that had gone by the way but you stopped to think of the number of people killed. That was a lot of American lives, not to mention it was three or four times that amount of locals, I guess more or less civilians, there was that wasted you know, and on top of that were those who weren’t killed outright, who were suffering those war injuries. It’s like we have body counts of who’s dead in Afghanistan in this week, you know, but we never are aware of- Thousands of people who’ve lost their limbs or are just completely screwed up from combat, from our wars in the mideast now. (1:03:50) It was the same way then, I mean you had something like 50,000 service men, you know, who were killed but you probably had up to three quarters or a whole million of them who were suffering injuries, and many of them still suffering, you know now, the wounded and the cared for without a great veterans administration to take care of them. Interviewer: “Yeah that’s part of the project I’m involved with now is the aftermath of, not just here but also Vietnam.” Well you know I had seen the waste, a lot of people know the numbers but when you see the waste it’s something else and it’s just something you learn to live with. Hey, I had a ‘49 Ford I used to love to drive around but it got rusted out and had to go, and anyway there was nothing you could do about it you know. Sure, shove the plane off in the sea, that's it. Interviewer: “About a year ago, I have AAA, and so- for my car, and I get a AAA magazine.” �Ellis, Roger Okay. Interviewer: “And although I didn’t have to go to Vietnam, I think you and I have talked about this. I came that close, in ‘72 to the draft board and was told “Go home kid it’s all over with.” One of the lucky ones my birthdate just happened to coincide with [unintelligible] but I have to admit when I got this magazine in the mail it had a profound impact on me, and I’m sure it would have a bigger impact on somebody who was there, but the cover of this AAA was the joys of going to Saigon, this magazine-” When? After the war you mean? Interviewer: “I’m talking about a year ago, a year ago in the mail-” (1:05:38) 2016? Interviewer: “Yeah, I get the front cover of the AAA magazine which has-” Really post-war. Interviewer: “There’s obviously, you know, the joys of Paris one month, another month is go to- And this one was literally devoted to why you should go to Vietnam, and it had a profound effect on my because I looked at it and I thought all those lives and even the homeless people still wandering around and now after all these years, I can pay a couple thousand dollars, get on an airplane and go there. So what was the point of doing all that to begin with? I guess this was my reaction.” Well you want an answer? There’s no answer. I mean it is what it is, you know if history is a river Frank there’s a hell of a lot of blood gone under that bridge and seeps and just flows away, but at the same time you and I both know there’s a lot of lessons to be learned from the Vietnam experience or the Desert Storm experience or a lot of experiences They’re still making war movies about World War II, and they will continue to do so about Vietnam and Afghanistan and �Ellis, Roger Osama Bin Laden and the rest. War is a seductive and fascinating subject. Interviewer: “But the thing that bothers me Roger is, and I think your description of this river of blood, is the one sitting on the side that never had to experience that, they’re making the money out of that blood. They’re sitting back in their mansions and traveling in their private jets because they’re the ones selling the airplane, and selling the bombs, and selling the materials and chemicals that go into those bomb. They watch that river of blood go by and it just doesn’t seem to affect them at all.” You don’t want to waste your time on finger pointing, I mean you might point your finger at that arms broker if you want, but you might also point your finger at the guys who go and torture civilians for the hell of it because they knew they could get away from it and so who’s responsible for that. One thing I realized is that the war never made monsters of anybody, the war just allowed people to come out. Whatever was in them it would go to the surface. (1:08:03) If you were a good person to begin with you could remain a good person, you might even have some good influence I don’t know. Maybe I did some good with all these Vietnamese kids I was teaching there at the orphanage, what a trip that was. I don’t know but it gave me the opportunity to do that, and I think even the most violent and depraved people, that they had that in their nature before they came, it just- A lot of these young people 18, 19 year old were, like I said some were psychopathic, others were just completely amoral, and you get a person like that and give them an assault weapon and there’s no law around them. They’ll do their job and they’ll do more if they get a chance and you gonna point a finger at the war for doing that or you’re gonna point a finger at them or the person who made that rifle or…There’s enough guilt to go around if you want to do that, yeah somehow you learned to live with that. Interviewer: “I think we’d stop there except I have one other question. This is the big difference between, not difference but there’s something you said to me that just really struck me, my eagle scouts project, and you know what an eagle scout project is-” Oh yeah. �Ellis, Roger Interviewer: “Was raising funds for an orphanage in Taipei, but all I had to do was gather together a bunch of stubs, sell it, and then be able to donate to the orphanage, and I felt pretty good about it and that’s what got me my eagle medal. Tell me about your experience with the orphanage in Vietnam?” This was about three miles outside the base, outside the wire, engine country. Was all girls, it was like I’d say 11, 12 years old up to maybe 15, 16. It was a hangover from French days, the French had long been gone and now the Yanks kind of protected it, but you never knew out there. None of them spoke English but the top Sergeant the guy who, you know, from Louisiana and decided- He got the request for someone to help the orphanage out and his staff noticed I had French in my background so he said to me “Listen I want you to go out and they need a teach there they want to learn English.” I said “Well okay.” So he gave me a driver and a jeep, and three days a week I’d go out to this orphanage. It was a really unusual experience trying to teach English with someone only with school boy French and I’d have an assault rifle with me at all times in the classroom. I’d be lucky if I could find some chalk out there and we could do this, so I did that for about three or four months and those kids were great but they didn’t have anything. I remember once I got a trip organized, I don’t know why top sergeant let me do it but he said “Okay I’ll give you an effing bus.” you know. So I put all those kids on a bus and I went to Saigon to the zoo. (1:11:56) Well they’d never seen Saigon, they’d never seen a zoo, we spent the day at the Saigon Zoo, you know, and they were- It was run by some nuns, I don’t know what order they were, but they came along as, you know, chaperones to get the kids around “Kathy had ice cream! Oh look there’s an elephant!” you know, all this stuff. So that was fun too but I was just teaching them out there, three afternoons a week out in the orphanage until the V.C over ran that, I understand- Well I didn’t see it but I understood- Well we had to stop going out there because the place had been blown up, a lot of the girls had been shot up, orphans were killed and so end of teaching at the orphanage, but although I still have photographs of a lot of those young kids, you know, hanging around. I didn’t mind that cause, you know, I had been like a teaching assistant before I went in. I’d probably by that time, you know by the time I got out of the Army I’d end up being a teacher as I have been. So teaching is teaching, away I went it was kind of unusual trying to teach English [Speaking French] you know, with a machine gun over your shoulder all the time you’re teaching. You know they were very nice they’d bring me in and �Ellis, Roger give me tea afterwards, you know, and then we’d drive in the jeep back, you know I never knew when the road would blow up from a mine under us, fortunately it never did, but for three months that was really- I’ve never forgotten that, that’s a great experience, but I don’t know what eventual good it did and how many of those kids are still alive whatever happened to them. So it’s one of those things you do because it’s nice to do and you can’t follow the impact of it down the years you just hope and pray something remains. Interviewer: “Here’s a question Roger I ask every veteran towards the end: How do you look back on your experience in the military, not just Vietnam per se, but how do you look back on your experience in the military?” Well I think there’s several things there Frank, I’m glad I had it overall, at the time I wasn’t you know I just “I don’t want to be here oh. Anti war.” but I’m glad I had it because I feel now like I was part of a great historical incident, being part of history however insignificant. I mean I wasn’t general or an officer or anything like that but I was up close and personal with what that whole thing was, and I’ve come to realize how unique it was, because not only do many people not know about it at all, it’s impossible to talk about it with people who’ve never been in that situation. Nobody asked me, as though they’re kind of afraid, and I guess I’ve heard this is pretty common that nobody really asks veterans what it was like and veterans are not always talking about it, very reluctant to, but it was unique and I learned a lot about things. (1:15:06) About life, about other people, about my own limitations and self preservation and self confidence whatever you wanna call that, and also about, you know, you wanna get academic about it, the military industrial complex and that sort of thing. So today I think it’s given me a perspective on that same kind of situation which hasn’t changed me, there’s still, you know we’ve got conflicts, we’ve got the glorification of the military and now our present president is beefing up the defense for more involvement. It’s made me cynical about that, questionable, I think there are times really when we’re grateful we have some military ability but I’m really deeply suspicious about the uses to which it’s put by people. Particularly the people you mentioned, the weapons dealer and weapons merchants as well as investors and others, none of whom have had any experience with war. I would suggest too most of them have probably never had sons or daughters- And so they stand at a remove from it, they promote it, they talk about it abstractly, it �Ellis, Roger becomes another political strategy they could you without realizing a terrible cost in human suffering that it’s going to involve, because their eyes are fixed on the tremendous profit that can emerge. I mean look at Vietnam, what we did there say in just one place like Cam Ranh Bay, was to create a huge deep water port for a vast amount of shipping that had to come in there to support the war effort during the Vietnam years. We pulled out and we left Vietnam with that huge asset and they are, you know, they’re still using it to this day, air fields and everything else, and my son who’s a business man he goes over to Vietnam and Asia frequently, and he’s been to Vietnam and he likes it, Saigon is starting to be very vital again and of course it’s a lot more modernized I’m sure I wouldn’t recognize a lot of it 40 years later. When I was there it was still old France, it was still very French, you know, but yeah there’s that, I have a perspective on it, you know, that I can use to- as a filter to see what’s going on today. I certainly also, a third thing was, I certainly enjoyed the benefits, I used the veterans benefits for school and education, I used them for buying my house you know, and so there’s that, that certainly helped me out. I’m very grateful I wasn’t shot up, damaged, or killed certainly, and it’s made me very aware of the stories of others. I feel sort of camaraderie with that, with any veteran but especially Vietnam veterans although I’ve never kept in touch with any of the people there. I guess there were only three or four others that I had served with over there who didn’t get blown away by the time I left, so where their lives led I don’t know afterwards but I was never, like I said, I was never bonding with others over there out of some great need (1:18:35) While I was there I was always coming back to others that I wouldn’t, you know, so that’s what I did, as soon as I got back I was immersed in the university culture, theater culture, other new friends, etc and I never hung onto social attachments of others. So I guess in general I’m glad I did that, I probably would have lacked a lot if I’d never seen what goes on there. I don’t have any illusions, I probably did enter with a lot of illusions about being patriotic and how fun war is, you know you can be like John Wayne and all the other heroes you saw in the movies, I no longer have that. I certainly am, as I also said, very suspicious about, you know, people who support the war and the money it takes to support the war and all that good stuff. It certainly made me also very knowledgeable about what George Bush, Dow, Donald Trump, and others have done in applying military force around the world. I tend to know what’s going on when they, you know, bomb Tunisia or send some rockets in Syria and you know what these guys are going through in the Phillippines and that sort of stuff. I know what’s happening a little more I think, without having to rely on Hollywood to tell �Ellis, Roger me that or read a bunch of books. I’ve read a lot of book about Vietnam afterwards, helped to put it in perspective by a bunch of people, my favorite kinds are the stories of- Not so much the critical analyses and the political arguments but the stories of it, and I confess those are the mostMy favorite motion pictures are stuff, films that I feel really depict what was going on, what I saw going on. Interviewer: “Give me an example since we’re both in the art field, what kinds of movies are you talking about which ones in particular struck you?” There are probably four, the most important one was Coppola’s film Apocalypse Now, there are many aspects of that that are just ultimately very very real. The one scene where in the middle of the jungle suddenly everything lights up cause they’re flying in a bunch of entertainers from Hollywood and there’s no light in the jungle, you know we’d go out on patrol there was nothing but star light you know, but in the movie you got that sense of suddenly that base, that landing pad, and the forward fire base lighted up and for an hour the helicopters would come in and the gals and guys would go out there and dance, you know etcetera, etcetera. Then they’d fly them right out or whatever but there’s a lot of scenes in that film that I think wereInterviewer: “It’s a scary film too.” (1:21:30) It is scary but nothing is unreal, the only thing that’s unreal is the notion of going way up a river like, what is it Martin Sheen trying to find Marlon Brando who some weird guy where they’re doing cannibalism and stuff that whole thing, well he had to do that because it was based on the Joseph Conrad novel but I don’t think anyone was really that psychopathic like Marlon Brando, however everything that happened around that was real. A second one was Platoon with William Dafoe and others, that was absolutely real, the combat sequences, the rivalry, and hatred, and people, and you know going on at your own people. You know the combat sequences were really accurate, really reflected what I knew and there was another one called steel- Full Metal Jacket, which it seemed to be a really brutal war film but they showed it the way it was and so those really impressed me. Well but it was probably Platoon, that had an ethical dimension to it like Apocalypse Now had an ethical dimension to it that put it into an accurate perspective. �Ellis, Roger Interviewer: “Yeah but we were talking about Hollywood, the interesting thing is how long it actually took Oliver Stone to get that made. He had to make a whole bunch of other ones, because no one wanted to make it.” The final film I’d mention is one that was made long after the war and it wasn’t about so much about combat at all it was swimming to Cambodia where they were talking about the killing fields. That motion picture was realInterviewer: “Spalding Gray” That was Spalding Gray yeah, God mercy on that guy, but he did a good job in that filmInterviewer: “Oh he did fantastic.” And you got the sense of panic of what it was like when the embassy staff had to get out of Saigon like now, and so that really was good for me yeah. Interviewer: “I don’t want to sound facetious because I love this movie, what did you think of Forrest Gump?” (1:23:44) I liked it, it was very playful. Interviewer: “It had its moments though where this person who really didn’t have any concept about what was going on around him but had this, somehow this moral compass, that “I gotta save Bubba” Bubba Hanks Interviewer: “Still brings tears to my eyes whenever I see that scene where he just goes running back and grabbing those people, cause he doesn’t know any better, I mean it’s just �Ellis, Roger the right thing to do.” There were a lot of Bubba’s who would make it through there and would be different Bubbas when they went back to Louisiana, Alabama, New York, wherever, but at the same time there were a lot of folks who went back to the streets who had been, especially the African Americans, Latinos, they went back toughened for a race war that’s still you know, pretty real to a lot of our cities nowadays and it was certainly real back then. The civil rights time coincided with all that so, but there were a lot of Bubbas in there and yeah he had a moral compass and all, it was a wonderful feeling good contrast between his buddy who got shot up and on and forced Gump who was just trying to do the right thing all the time. He took his chances and the roll of the dice was just he lived and the other guy got torn up, that’s what happens. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context EllisR2119V Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Ellis, Roger Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04 Title A name given to the resource Ellis, Roger (Interview transcript and video), 2017 Description An account of the resource Roger Ellis was born on May 18, 1943 in Chicago, Illinois, but grew up in San Jose, California, where he graduated from a prep high school. Ellis then attended college for a bachelor’s degree in English and Dramatic Literature. He also participated in the Reserve Officer Training Courses for the Navy, and then the Army, but lost interest by 1963 due to conflict heating up overseas and the counterculture movement at home. In 1963, he studied abroad in Italy for a year. He then attended a master’s program in Dramatic Literature at the University of Santa Clara in California before the draft prevented him from moving onto achieve his Doctorate in 1967. Entering the Army in 1968, Ellis attended Basic Training as well as Advanced Individual Training at Fort Lewis, Washington. After training, he was deployed to Saigon, Vietnam, where he was assigned to an infantry unit at Bien Hoa Air Base. As a Light Weapons Infantryman, Ellis accompanied foot patrols that secured perimeters around Bien Hoa. Later, Ellis was reassigned as an administrative Clerk for the Morning Report Section of a Headquarters Battalion in Bien Hoa, and then in Phu Bai. He also took up photography and worked as an English teacher for orphan girls in a village near the base. At the end of his tour in 1970, Ellis was flown back to Chicago where he was officially discharged from the Army. Once back in the United States, he was surprised by the hostility of antiwar protests directed against Vietnam veterans. Ellis reunited with his wife and returned to his Doctorate program at the University of California, Berkeley where he also rejoined the antiwar protests. He grew critical of the military, economic, and human waste caused by the war, especially as the Armed Forces made their hasty retreat from Vietnam after 1973. Reflecting upon his time in the service, Ellis believed he was part of a great historical era since it was difficult to discuss his war experience with those who had not lived it. He also appreciated the Army’s veteran benefits and the greater military experience, which he used as a critical lens into contemporary American military politics. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) GHTV Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States—History, Military Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975—Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/333878650df1713a98e60a16fc187dd7.mp4 5efafdf197a5b009cf009e22f4641453 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6e6649c770d20570bf2c1db8567cc9dd.pdf 94164b265ecfe1d51f5225df0120f49e PDF Text Text Living with PFAS Interviewee: Garret Ellison Interviewer: Dani DeVasto Date: June 29, 2021 DD: I’m Dani DeVasto and today, June 29th, 2021, I have the pleasure of chatting with Garret Ellison. Hi, Garret! GE: Hi, Dani. DD: Garret, can you tell me where you are from and where you currently live? GE: Well, I’m, [chuckles], I guess I’m from Traverse City. I grew up and went to school in Traverse City. Graduated high school up there in 2001 and then, I went to the community college there at [MC?] and started a journalism career — or studying journalism brought me to Central Michigan where I got a bachelor’s degree and I now work for MLive as the Statewide Environmental Reporter. I’ve done that since 2015-2014 and I currently live in Kalamazoo. I’ve bounced around — Traverse City, Mount Pleasant, Grand Rapids. I did a lot — a lot of the stuff we’re going to talk about today happened when I live in the Grand Rapids-Kent County area. DD: And how long have you been in Kalamazoo? GE: Since 2019. I moved down here to be closer to my daughter who moved away with my ex in 2018. So, [chuckles] I’ll get into some of that because it ties into the story a little bit. DD: Alright, let’s just get rolling then. Can you please tell me a story about your experience with PFAS [per- and polyfluoroalkyl substances] or PFAS in your community? GE: Sure, I guess what I can tell you is a little bit about the — the best story that I have to tell is the way the news broke around the Wolverine Worldwide contamination in the RockfordBelmont area and I think the place to begin is with an email that I got I — I pulled it up. So, it was July 19, yep, 2017, and I was in Alabaster Township over on the sunrise side of the state — near Tawas. Just south of Tawas. At what would be — would’ve been my father and mother in-laws’ bedroom where I was working— you know had I gotten married to my ex, my daughter’s mother. So, we were up visiting during the week, and I was working, you know, remotely and they were, you know, my daughter was little over 1 years old at the time. She’s still pretty little. And so, we were up near — Haley is her — my ex’s name and my daughter’s name is Olive. And so, we were up with Haley’s parents, and I got an email from a woman named Lynn McIntosh. And her email is lmarie003, right, and I didn’t understand it at the time but the 003 is sort of a cute James Bond reference [laughs] — like she’s [Agent 003?]. 1 �DD: [laughs] GE: And she said she had read a lot of articles that I had written, and she follows the PFAS issue pretty closely and she wanted to tell me a possible lead on a story about related to PFOS [perand polyfluoroalkyl substances] sources in Northern Kent County other than Plainfield Township. And so, at this point, I had written fairly extensively about Wurtsmith Air Force Base in Oscoda which like is the first place in Michigan that PFAS had ever been discovered. And through that reporting, I had learned that the chemicals were in the township municipal water supply in Plainfield at sort of moderate levels. I think were — nothing that really exceeded the EPA’s 70 parts per trillion health advisory level, but nevertheless, sort of concerning. So, I had written in 2016 an article about that, right so, Plainfield, Ann Arbor, detection of these chemicals in public drinking water— and it was some of the first reporting in Michigan about PFAS and drinking water. So it was real early — you know there was a reaction to it, but it wasn’t like, you know, had you written that story now, people would — “oh, no” — they’d really go nuts. People didn’t quite understand it then. So, I got this email from a lady named Lynn talking about possible sources in Kent County — Northern Kent County and it really piqued my interest because nobody knew why it was getting into Plainfield Township’s water. There was a suspicion that it was a [super fun side?] on the East Beltline but hadn’t been determined yet. And there was suspicion that it could from a gravel pit on the other side of the — the Grand River which subsequently would discover was a Wolverine dump site. But none of this had been discovered yet. And so, Lynn McIntosh asked to meet. And so — I didn’t get back to her right away. [laughs] I got back to her few days later on the 21st. And I said — I apologized for — the delay — sometimes it takes me a few days, you know, — just to — I get emails from lots of different people, and you’ve got to decide, do I respond to this person? Because everybody promises they’ve got a story, and they’ve got a big scoop. And it’s like, some of them are just cranks. And you just don’t — you just don’t want to — want to give them a reply because then you get pulled in. DD: [um-hum] GE: But Lynn had enough detail. And she mentioned something — she mentioned something in her email — or emails — about a tannery. And that — triggered something in my mind because — I had moved to Sparta in October 2016 from Grand Rapids with my, you know, ex and our — our infant daughter. Sparta, I don’t know if you’re familiar with Sparta, but it’s not — there’s not a lot to do there. [chuckles] DD: [chuckles] 2 �GE: But it’s close to Rockford, you know, it’s, you know, a 5-10 minute drive. So, in the evenings, we would go to Rockford and we would walk the White Pine trail with Olive in the stroller. And, you know, it’s kind of nice downtown, and there’s the dam. And just, you know, if you’re going to go for a stroll with a kid, it’s a — it’s a more desirable place to do that. And so, we’ve been walking the white pine trails a few times, and we’re walking past this big, empty property north of downtown Rockford and I keep looking at it like, why is there a fence here? What is this? I just didn’t know what the property used to be. But it looked like a pollution site, right? I’ve been doing environmental stuff for a while, and I was kind of like, [hmmm] something’s going on here. This is prime real-estate downtown. It would be built on if there wasn’t some sort of contamination error issue going on here. So, I remember flagging down a police officer, one of the bike cops that just sort of [roams around?], and I was like “Hey is there something wrong with that property?”. And I got a “Oh, no —no I don’t know anything about it, you know”. And I’m like, “you don’t know anything about that property, you know, mister police officer who live in Rockford and works in Rockford and this is downtown Rockford?” [mimics garbled response from police officer] DD: [chuckles] GE: So, I had kind of been like [huh]. Through this email with Lynn, I learned that this was the Wolverine Worldwide tannery. And — it — it just sort of clicked that — that could be interesting. And so, I agreed to meet Lynn a few days later and we walked — we walked from the Rockford Dam up to — a spot on the river right next to where the foot depot is, right. So, there is the existing building on the tannery site — the only thing that is left. And it used to be the manufacturing facility itself, but now it’s just a shoe store. DD: [um-hum] And so, Lynn’s kind of like, you’ve got to see this. There’s still a ton of leather and stuff leftover from the tannery itself right here in the riverbank. And I’m like, really? And so, we push all this brush aside on the riverbank, it was pretty overgrown at the time, I mean you walked the trail and could see the river but it’s not like it is now after the EPA clean up, where, you know, it’s been — all that underbrush and vegetation has been removed. So, we push aside this — all this vegetation and just look down and it’s just leather litter. It’s — it’s — like old scraps of the leather, the trimmings, right, from the manufacturing process. And — and — pieces of shoe, rubber soles — rubber shoe soles. And it was obvious right? Anybody could’ve figured it out. I mean — there was even a— a— a sole, a full rubber sole of a shoe that said hush puppies on it. [laughs] So — I mean it’s like, huh. DD: Yeah. GE: So, I took a bunch of pictures of this, and immediately I’m like, well, if a company is going to leave this here, right here on the riverbank for anyone to find, it’s got their name on it — what else have they left, you know? So, everything was sort of [hmm] — this is —Lynn McIntosh is 3 �definitely not just a crank or someone who was just emailing me, right? There’s something here for sure. So, I started to really get into, alright, what’s going on? And so, she shows me the leather scraps — which those photos really caught people’s attention, right? Just that — the idea that this stuff is still littering the river and it has the company’s name on it and it’s been there for years. And it’s been there for so long that like, it had become a part of the riverbank. Like trees had grown up around it. Big trees. And you know, to hear Lynn tell it, it was just the tip of the iceberg. You know, I mean like, the whole riverbank was made of leather, more or less, you know, in fact there’s and island on the river that they call the “Island of the Lost Soles”. DD: [chuckles] GE: You know, because it was supposedly built on leather trimmings, and leather hides and stuff that hadn’t been, you know, used as infill. DD: Wow. GE: So, [sighs] so she — you know I go over to Lynn’s house, and she drops theses huge binders of like, you know, paperwork, old reports [foil materials?], emails, her own sort of, you know, sketches and drawings like her decade of —near decade work on the tannery and the contamination issue there. And you know, it was like, it was overwhelming — like oh man. [laughs] And so, I started to go through it and talk to her and sort of understand what the concern was which ended up being they put a ton of scotch guard on that leather and — they had — you know her group, CCRR, [Concerned Citizens for Responsible Redevelopment], was initially the “R”, but they changed it to be “remediation” later on — you know had learned about all the scotch guard use and was arguing with Wolverine to try to get them to do more with the remediation at the tannery site. And they were having all kinds of problems because there was a guy at Michigan Department of Environmental Quality who was real friendly to Wolverine, and you know, he just didn’t take them seriously at all and didn’t like Lynn clearly at all. She seemed to have rubbed him the wrong way. [sighs] And so, we start to scope out a story about, you know, this issue with the PFAS in the river. It had been found with some surface water testing a few years prior that’s they knew for sure it was there — and like look at all this, I mean the leather scraps, and the river, and the tannery, and the fish was the first story that we worked on. And that was — I think we finally got that ready to go in late August. Let me Google the date. [typing sounds] August 23, 2017, right. So, it was ready to go about a week or so before that, but the Corner Bar in Rockford caught fire on like, the day that we were going to publish this story. And so, we held on to it. To not, I mean —sort of for us — just community sensitivity reasons. I mean it was like, okay, we’re not gonna — [laughs] the community of Rockford is mourning the loss of an institution right now., we’re not going to just the same day put this story out there about how there’s this big pollution problem in the river right downtown. I mean, it’s there, it can wait a week. 4 �So, we waited a week and then published it on the 23rd of August — and [sighs][chuckles] I feel like I already glossed over so much just by — at this point — so while I was reporting out that story in August, I got a phone call from Lynn, who, you know, [sighs] had just found sort of just through the grapevine that the DEQ [Michigan Department of Environmental Quality], they’re now called EAGLE [Environment And Great Lakes Energy] — it’s a cute acronym —they were handing out bottled water on a street in Belmont — where the chemicals were being found in people’s private drinking wells. DD: [huh] GE: And she was all excited — like not in a good way but like “oh my god, they found — they found this stuff at like, eighteen-hundred parts per trillion”, probably more, but I’d have to go find the notebook, but she was like, “really high levels at someone’s well on House Street”. And I remember writing it down like, “House Street, where the hell is House Street?”, right, like I didn’t even know where that was, and I thought, what a silly name for a street — like “building avenue”. [chuckles] DD: [laughs] GE: So, before the first story about the river published, we learned about what was happening on House Street— but, I mean, at that point it’s like, “oh, man, you know, what do I do?” You know, I’ve reported on this story, it’s focused on the river, and this issue with the tannery, and it became — so I started looking at House Street too and it became clear that this is a Wolverine Worldwide problem as well — and so, you know, the focus — the decision was — well let’s get the first story out and then follow up pretty quickly — as soon as you can. And so, you know, by the time the story was published on the 23rd, I had already started pivoting to House Street and I was trying to — I was — I had gotten a good briefing on the issue from the guy at the DEQ. His name was David O’Donnell. And he kind of ends up being a villain in this story. [long sigh] I don’t know if villain is the best way to put it, but he does not come across well. I mean like, you know, if you go back and look at some of the decisions that he made, you know, he not a [sighs] — the people who live on House Street, right, are not a fan of David O’Donnell — neither is Lynn McIntosh or anyone who, you know, works for the CCRR because he had been sort of a gatekeeper at DEQ — in charge of sort of the site, the Wolverine tannery site. Come to find out, he had been really — he had been a bit of an impediment to this stuff being discovered and being dealt with — something of a poster child for regulator captures in some ways. But what had happened, you know, CCRR and Lynn McIntosh — her group had been gathering all this evidence about Wolverine’s scotch guard use and had been taking it to David O’Donnell and the DEQ and trying to go, “Hey, look. Look at where they — this stuffs in the river right here in Rockford, you know, Wolverine’s patent [chuckles] clearly demonstrates that they use these chemicals, there’s all kinds of references to is even if” — but of course their lawyers are denying that they did and you know — you know even denying that they knew anything about scotch guard or PFAS and just the way that lawyers deny stuff like that. 5 �[sighs] So, once I found out about House Street, I had been back and forth with David O’Donnell about the river story, you know, just sort of reporting that stuff out and I had followed the [foyer?] request for, you know, Wolverine’s investigation — river investigation workplan, and so once I found out about House Street, I called David O’Donnell and said “What are you doing on House Street?”. This was like one of those “oh shit, caught us moments” because I had been talking to him about Wolverine and the river and PFAS and all this stuff for weeks, but he never mentioned that up in this neighborhood Belmont, nearby, we are investigating whether this stuff is in drinking water and ground water around an old landfill that they used to use. And they had been doing that — they started doing that in the spring. DD: [hmm] GE: So, months before Lynn McIntosh had ever emailed me, they had started doing work out there. The reason that they had started doing work up there is because of the Kent County Health Department, right, and — and there’s a big backstory there involving Lynn’s groups and trying to get information to the DEQ and trying to get enough evidence to force them to start investing this issue. There’s a woman at the health department named Sarah Simmons, who really played a big role in sorting of forcing David O’Donnell to move up a timeline for investigating this — this stuff there. He would’ve sat on that until 2018 or later, you know. And so — [chuckles] so my phone call with David O’Donnell was very much like, “Oh, you found out about that. Well, okay, why don’t you come on over to our office and I’ll sit you down and tell you everything that’s going on there”. And so, he — I went over to the State Office Building in Downtown GR [Grand Rapids], where the DEQ had it’s — Remediation Division Office, and it’s just a walk from MLive’s office to the State’s Office downtown. He put a map in front of me, you know, with like a color-coded — like oh here’s the property with really bad — red [laughs] — where we think there’s really high levels [sighs] and it was like “oh, man”. So, he laid it all out for me, so I had enough for a story, right? I have an official source from the government confirming that there’s an investigation going on — here’s what the investigation is about and here’s the properties, you know, that are at concern. But [sighs] you know, [sighs] that’s — that’s like the bare minimum for a story like this and I wanted to get some people who live in the — who live in the area, who live in the affected neighborhood. And so, I was really — working hard to try and get like anyone on House Street. [chuckles] The first story that I wrote doesn’t have anyone who lives on House Street. It had someone who grew up on House Street — a woman named Brandy Glaskey who is actually a loose family connection of mine — who is like [sighs] my grandma’s sister’s son’s wife. I think that’s third cousin or something like that or something removed? I never really figured it out, but I remember seeing her at family gatherings growing up anyway so somehow I put together because we were like friends on Facebook that she grew – oh no I saw her name -I had gone down the street, writing down all the -y’know knocking on doors but you know you are working during the day, nobody is home, nobody is answering. Those people that do answer like don’t want anything to do with a reporter, there was a pregnant woman answered, you know a pregnant woman answered. I don’t remember the exact address but, there were these bottles of water like 6 �four little twenty-ounce bottles of water sitting there with like a note on top. And like you know pregnant woman answers with a little kid behind her, and I’m like thinking “oh man” you know, contamination in the drinking water, its never good for -I mean pregnant women and kids are vulnerable populations. So, you know everything just- you know shaping up that this was bad news but. And so, I’m writing down addresses and and searching the people behind those addresses and trying to find phone numbers and stuff to call them and figuring out who lives here and sort of this sort of this basic investigative backgrounding work. And then I googled 18-50 – It think [sighs] I didn’t google – no 1850 house street, and I put that together with Joel Stelt. And I googled his name and an obituary popped up immediately, and it was recent. Like a year old, 2016. And it mentioned cancer? And it was like “oh no” you know? I mean it was just like one of those -all the pieces are -all the red flags are just you know stacking up. [sighs]. So, I eventually was able to get enough information out of DEQ, I was able to get a FIAO request with a lot of old files, historical sort of records showing that yes Wolverine dumped here on this property, and this was the dates, and there was a lot of old water resources commissions records and stuff. And so, I had a lot information and I had a lot of experience with the chemicals and what they can do and how far they can go and what the safety thresholds and stuff were, and who the experts talked to about this stuff because I had spent a lot of time at -reporting wordsmith. And so [sighs] the story about the river didn’t get a lot of attention, because that’s just the way it goes with environmental stories you know if the impact is primarily to the ecosystem, its, and ecological concern fore most. [DD agrees] people are upset about that sort of thing, get upset about it, but the more of the mainstream reaction tends to just shrug at it. But when you write a headline that says “toxic chemicals pollute drinking water” near old tannery dump, that gets attention and so that story went up, [pauses] [typing is heard] August 30th, 2017, so, about a week later, a week after the river story. And that was really the, you know, the sort of the damn broke on Wolverine and on PFAS and Rockford and that’s when it became like WOOD TV and all the TV stations suddenly jumped on it, you know Ken Kolker who is a former press reported you know is camped out on house street trying to get [sighs] TV reporters are intrusive, print reports we try not to be predatory but we are more the guy that comes up with you with the notebook and is like “hey how is it going try not to be a jerk here with the camera” whereas the TV reports are right in your face with the microphone you know they camp out on your lawn. But that approach can be effective because Ken Kolker was the first one to get Sandy went stealth actually to talk [laughs] I have bene calling and leaving voice messages and stuff before, but I was just too early you know? [DD laughs] the first one and nobody wanted to deal with the reporter but eventually when you deal with one its sort of like pandoras box is open and they start to deal with all of them. [sighs] so [pause] you know that story goes up and pretty quickly its- its big- its huge new right all the TV, all the Aps picking it, TV stations are doing stuff and immediately they schedule, a big public town hall meeting on it and you know it’s like, it’s a different thing you know? Chemicals in the river, that’s generally a concern for people who like a limited population right? People who eat the fish, [DD agrees] um, the chemicals in drinking water, that you know, that freaks people out rightly so. That’s a major problem. And it being that it wasn’t just the chemicals in drinking water, it was like these sort of new unregulated chemicals that people had never really heard of and understood. They understood the products associated but the underlying chemistry was a big mystery and its hugely complicated and you know this one woman’s property has got record levels of this. Like the regulators are like “we have never heard of anything this bad” right? 18.. what was it? [sighs and thinks] in the story it said that 27,000 parts per trillion in the well. Has the highest combined PFO as PFOA concentration the 7 �state health department toxicologist had ever seen in drinking water well. And that was just the PFOS and PFOA number, not the total PFOS number, which ended up being much much higher and subsequent testing showed you know just astronomically high levels. I think Sandy, that was Sandy [unclear]. [DD agrees] and I think later on I mean its tested at 88.000 parts per trillion its like pure scotch garden at that point. You know her husband was drinking that, and she was drinking that, and you know and then he its like [sighs] its one of those situations where you know as a reporter you always want a big story and then one lands in your lap and suddenly “ok now you gotta do this well! And you need to be respectful and and and not be predatory about it”. And you know so it was a delicate, delicate thing I think – I think I handled it pretty because the first two -well the first three stories because there was a third one here. Hold up I have gone back to you know years- you know the last few years to kind a like, read -reread through them, I mean like there is a lot of really good information here that holds up still. [DD agrees] And so part -one of the things that Lin Mackintosh had given me, one of the pieces of information -I think like the most crucial piece of information she ever got, the best document she ever got, was notarized in her view from my a truck driver -a dump -you know a guy that actually did the dumping on house street. She had found him one of her fellow group members had done a notarized interview with him, and that had they had given that to DEQ and that ended up being [pause] a really key piece of evidence that really forced the state to start invest- forced the state force Wolverine to start investigating around the house street dump. And so I had that too, you know I knew that not just -the chemicals weren’t only here on house street, they were, he dumped this stuff at a couple other places and so there was a third story um in that I was working on as well, um, [clicking] I can’t remember the headline there. [pause] [sighs] [typing] ok so, on September 7th I published the third story. Which is “Tannery waste dumped at landfill tied to municipal water pollution.” So here I was kind of able to bring this stuff full circle in some ways with the dump truck driver Earl Teft, he had said that we had dumped this stuff at house street, we dumped this stuff at old dump on -off of 12 mile and Algoma. Kind of up the river from Rockford, north of Rockford a little ways right on the river like a old dump on the river like, what a terrible place to put a dump. And the state disposal land fill on the beltline south of at like right there at four mile and [unclear] sort of like kitty corner of Robinette’s there a supper fun site. Used to be an old dump. Thankfully its downgradient from the apple orchard. So, I looked at that. You know cuz then you are like “oh my god” people are eating contaminated apples -but they weren’t. And so that was able to tie the Wolverine dumping to the Plainfield township municipal water issue. And that ended up being a really important thing because it sparked a lot of online activisms that resulted in people showing up in droves at Plainfield township board meetings demanding filtration and demanding something be done and that pressure for Plainfield township responded to that pressure by seeking state grant money to install activated carbon filtrations on their municipal water. And so that really kind of sparked the first [sighs] filtration efforts? And on municipal water in Michigan it was sort of a pilot project which is you know pretty, it created a water supply that could then be used as the solution you know that’s what’s happening right now right so Plainfield townships water is filtered for these chemicals and now they’ve extend -with the consent decree with Wolverine they’ve you know the company you know and three [unclear] are paying for Plainfield township watermain extensions to neighborhoods with polluted wells and stuff. So, it was like the first three stories in the span of about two and a half, three weeks you know. Established Wolverine the polluter, problem with the river, huge drinking water problem and ground water and Belmont and it’s tied to the municipal water issue in Plainfield township AND there are probably more dump sites, right? So, 8 �it was all of these things came out in the span of a few weeks and they didn’t go through the corporate PR downplay, spin washing machine, right? This was -there were no press conferences there were no press releases. There was no filtration of the news through you know the the through the government [sighs] or the corporate sort of polluter lens before it reaches the public, it was just pure information straight from primary sources and it was really strong reporting. And it at point -the community there was no denying it. Wolverine could not put the genie back in the bottle. And it, you know sort of spun into this enormous search for dump sites around the Rockford, northern Kent County area. And that turned up the woven jewel, Welling Ridge sorts of area that’s almost in terms of concentrations strength. It’s almost worse than house street a lot of people don’t know that. And it you know put a lot of pressure on the state government, especially after Flint. This is still Rick Snyder’s administration and so his response is, well gosh you know, I can’t be seen having another drinking water crisis, so you know he creates M Part, which and and and in M parts first big mission is to test all public drinking water supplies around the state. And what that does is it -that directly results in the discovery in contamination in parchment, and you know it you know it would not of happen if Wolverine had not broken in that way. If you know there hadn’t been enough -all this pressure being put on Lance and to act, [sighs] [sighs] that’s kinda where it becomes a personal story to me in some ways because, the work [sighs] on Wolverine and this story strained a relationship that was broken with my exgirlfriend. To the point of no return. We separated in December 2017. And That was very hard and and she met somebody within a few months, and he happened to live in parchment, [laughs]. And so, in mid-2018 she moves to parchment with my daughter. Mid, maybe it’s, its summer 2018 and off the top my head I don’t remember the exact date but thankfully by that time they had discovered the drinking water contamination, right. So, my daughter was in a you know, not exposed to that stuff [DD agrees] you know at that point I am really thankful for that, right? Because without all of this stuff happening, you know she’d have gotten down here and [pauses] you know I mean its high levels in the municipal water, they react really strongly to what happened in parchment, and they turn that- I mean they got the test and turned the tap off at the plant that day. And so that’s a weird you know, its sort of this roundabout way they I like kinda like I didn’t -I’m not Rick Schnyder, I didn’t make the state do this statewide water testing. But I do believe the that the way the news broke around Wovlerine and Rockford and sort of the community response to it and the fact that this stuff came out, [hand chopping] boom boom boom, like really solid reporting on this came out without a bunch of government or PR spin on it, forced a lot of action [DD agrees] I think that’s one of the more consequential actions that forced and and it did end up protecting the things that I love the most [laugh] so that’s, that’s a good feeling in that -that sense. DD: Can IGE: [stretches and laughs] I feel like I have been talking for a while [laughs] DD: You have, but that’s okay. 9 �GE: Did I -you know there is more to all -like there is more detail I could definitely like go back in and fill out detail on this stuff, [pause]. But [sighs] it oh [laughs and clears throat]. There is one interesting element to -to kind of go back to this point where [clears throat] I am just discovering this stuff, starting to report it as seek information about the Wolverines use of the chemicals and what’s going on with the river and what not. Back in August 2017, [sighs] one of the very first things I did, I almost the first thing I did after Lin Mackintosh identified Wolverine worldwide Tannery. As I sent a FOIA request from the DEQ for you know its investigation -I think it was -excuse me- [tisk] I forget the wording -exact wondering about a FOIA, it was information about what Wolverine was doing to investigate FPAS in Rockford. And that FOIA request [laughs] you know through subsequent FOIA requests in in you know reporting and stuff I [sighs] that FOIA request really hit a fire, under the state and Wolverine and I David O’Donald, I caught him before he gave me – FOIA materials to me, he gave them to Wolverine’s attorney a day prior. [DD agrees] Which is a no- no, you do not do that, I mean that was the kind of thing that never like I never fit it in any of the initial stories because it was seemed to be this sort of behind scenes inside baseball stuff that wasn’t directly relevant to the matter at hand which was drinking water contamination and health threat. It was you know corporate regulatory issue; you know involving the media. I was able to kind of, some oblique references to it in later stories, but that was how I knew that David O’Donald isn’t a voice right actor in this point right. You know the guy that is in charge of- you know overseeing the regulatory response is giving -media FOIA requests to the polluter before he gives them to the media. That’s an issue and that’s a big transparency shown, -it may just of sort of hammer home when Mackintosh has is saying to me at this time which is in some respect, going back to now this stuff sounds a bit extreme. And then you deal with something like that, and you are like “wow okay so there really is some bullshit going on here” [computer notification] So that’s an interesting piece of this you know DD: Yeah GE: There is more things like that, but I am thinking of writing a book [laughs] with this whole issue. DD: Wow GE: These initial interviews and [sighs] outlining and chapter and it’s a lot of work it’s a lot of work to write all report and write all day and you know. DD: And then write some more. GE: Yea [laughs] so I haven’t moved very far on that but there is just so much there that I don’t know how there really just is no other way to present it besides just documentary film or 10 �something like that it needs to be some sort of big, [sighs] you know substantial, depth, of [DD agrees] presentation for this matter because I am newspaper reporter and I can do long form stories and I can do regular updates and stuff but they’re all there is a limit to the newspaper format [DD agrees] and so I try to work the best I can within those limitations but there is still like like if she got -its been a few years at this point and you know there is, there is a lot of details around this story that you either have to know or know how to google search you know a whole bunch of old stories to find and stuff you know so I’d like to just, I’m really interested in a presentation that puts it all in one place. DD: Yea, that sounds fascinating I would read slash watch it. GE: Yea? Well, I hope but thank you. There is a kid working on a documentary eh he is a film maker in Ypsilanti. He kind of started working on it a few years ago and I have been trying to help him but he is kind of doing it on a shoe string but its not moving very quickly but you know I -it its an interesting story -I I I find the Wolverine story is -has a lot of drama [DD agrees] it effects a lot of people, chem- but its you know and in that respect its -its [sighs] you know its not like the military, where you know at an air force base -sorry about the pulsing black that’s there it’s the back lighting, like at an air force base, you’ve got the military they use this A FFF triple fighting foam, that creates the contamination there. It’s a different thing then when a company, you know, like Wolverine, which is this huge, global footwear company, headquartered in the same small town Kent County area, that it was birthed from, you know, it’s this sort of company town aspect to it, you know, pollutes the environment and the people in it’s hometown, right, in it’s backyard. It’s a different stor- I mean the contamination is the same, the result is the same. I mean if you’re drinking it because the military used AFFF foam and that’s how the groundwater polluted versus Wolverine Worldwide dumps scotts yard waste into an unmined landfill and that’s how the groundwater polluted. I mean if-if-if- you’re the affected person it doesn’t really matter. I mean you’re- I mean guess maybe it does in terms- if you want to get and sue them or something. You know you can’t sue the military basically. But in terms of storytelling and narratives and you know sort of things like that, the Wolverine Rockford story is much more compelling and I think it grabs people’s attention in a different way than a lot of the military contaminations, because I think when it comes to military there’s- people aren’t conflicted you know it’s like well this is the military weyou know- we support our troops. You know it’s hard for people to grasp the notion that- thatinstitution would be a bad actor. DD: “Mhmm” GE: “Versus you know a copr- major corporation. It’s almost like people just sort of expect you know, that sort of thing, right? You know, when profits, you know are on the line and- you know that’s the way business is done, you know kind of thing. 11 �DD: “Mhmm” GE: “There’s differences there in terms of, you know the residents I guess of the story. DD: “mhmm, absolutely. Yeah. So for you, after this kind of really intense period of reporting, what happened for you after that? Like as- as- in your work with PFAS? Did it have an impact for you moving forward or was this kind ofGE: “Yeah. [chuckles] I- so- it never stopped for me. It still hasn’t stopped for me. It’s- It’s been PFAS almost continuously since then. In fact, mLive recognized, thankfully, with a little bit of cajoling, sort of the mLive busts recognized this was- we were- we were way ahead of something that you know most other media outlets around the country hadn’t figured out yet. And so theynot only did they keep me on the story, the PFAS story, Wolverine, Rockford, all of that, but statewide and nationally, they added somebody so I started working with another reporter named Paula Gardner in early 2018. And, you know, because the M part situation quickly snowballed into statewide testing and now, we’re looking into wastewater, which, you know, is a huge pathway for the chemicals into the environment. Suddenly there’s a ton of interest and audience for this stuff in Michigan, and so and we had been doing great work on it, so, you know, there was about a two and a half, three year period where I wrote about nothing besides PFAS. Which is remarkable for a newspaper. You know it- it- just doesn’t really happen anymore. Especially in a time of consolidation in the media where everybody, you know, even specialists, are forced to do more generalist type stuff. It, you know, it’s still looking back, shocks me that I had A) I was writing about more or less one story, one subject for several years and I was doing it with someone else who was doing the same thing, it wasn’t like oh she’s going to help you part time, it was you two are a team and this is your subject and we- really proud of the work we did over 2018 and 2019. We really followed the drinking water testing and the results closely and it had a pretty big- it had some residence with Gretchen Witmer, who started talking about drinking water on the campaign trail a lot. It was like ‘fix the damn roads and clean up the drinking water’ like those were the two things. And so, when she gets elected, suddenly the process of developing drinking water standards is initiated. The groundwork had been laid under Rick Snyder, but nobody was expecting him to follow through with a regulatory process that, you know, imposes cost burdens on a regulated community, that’s just not what Republicans do. When she gets elected, you know, Whitmer’s a Democrat and she initiates the process for setting PFAS drinking water standards, you know, and now we have those. I threw some- just talking to people in this community, I remember talking to a donor, a Democratic donor, who is heavily involved in PFAS issues in Michigan. He- he tells me this story of you know, one of my- you know he’s at like a town hall presentation, like a- like a- campaign appearance with Whitmer and, you know, he gets an alert, and it’s one of my stories, it’s about like the first big results of drinking water testing around the state, you know showed, you know, if you total up the 12 �population of the systems with PFAS in them it’s about 1.5 million people are being served by filter systems right, so you know, that’s the headline. And so, he takes that headline over to Whitmer after their appearance, and she reacts pretty strongly to it. This is per my source but, you know, all of her actions today around PFAS, you know back that up that she took it pretty seriously. So that was nice. Anytime as a reporter you can point to policy action, you know, especially in the public health realm where people are being protected against a danger and a threat, you know that feels really good. That’s what journalism is supposed to do, right? I mean it’s sort of the larger importance of you know, journalism and what the news media can do and you know this is [chuckles] and this is all happening in the Trump era, you know where at nationally journalists are being, you know, vilified as enemy of the people, you know, interestingly I never experienced that. You know, most of the Trump years I spent writing about this issue DD: “mhmm” GE: “And just the amount of appreciation I’ve received from people who are affected by it or interested in it. I mean… overwhelming. You know, you get emails as a journalist, you get hate emails. If you’re writing about politics much more than about environmental issues, but I get some. Just the ratio is very much [chuckles] way way way way more people writing like ‘thank you’ emails versus you know what are you some kind of liberal doom sayer kind of stuff. So that’s been really encouraging. Right? It’s the kind of thing that, you know, makes the editors, you know, happy, your bosses happy, they can kind of sell the newspaper on that, a little bit on that. Look at what we’ve done, and here we got this guy, buy a subscription. And so that helps… job security. [chuckles] DD: [chuckles] GE: So yeah, I guess it’s a long way of answering your question, but yeah, I expect to be writing about PFAS for the rest of my career, you know, it’s like, every- you know, you talk to scientists, and you talk to experts and they’re like it’s the new PCB’s, it’s the new bestest, it’s the new this and that, you know and those things are still around, and those things still make the news now and then. I mean, I’m here in Kalamazoo, not far from the Kalamazoo River where, you know, there’s still dredging, sediment dredging going on from all the PCBs in the river from the paper making, you know, industry. They call that legacy, you know pollution. I jus-You know, PFAS is clearly on that sort of trajectory of being, you know, like it’s an issue that-, you know like PCBs, there’s clearly an effort to get it out of products where it’s not necessary, clean it up from the environment, more strictly regulate its uses, you know and that sort of thing. And because there is so much going on with it, there’s a lot to keep track of. And because that’s where my expertise has kind of been developed I kind of have to follow that. Which in some regards, creates a conundrum for me because I would write more about things like Climate Change, or 13 �Environmental Justice, which are really hugely important topics, but I have to kind of play a little bit of triage with my time because I go well, you know those things are being covered pretty well by other reports in Michigan and nationally. This is something that I have a lot of experience and knowledge in, and you know, I can do the most good by following that path, you know, instead of, you know, go where the herd is going. DD: “mhmm” GE: “But that’s hard to explain to some people, you know in Ann Arbor who are very upset about, you know rightfully so, climate change. And so, you know, over the years I’ve had to kind of say, you know look I can’t do everything, and this is the one I’m kind of following and I’ll get to climate change when I can. There are other really good reporters, it’s not like that topic isn’t in the news. DD: “Yeah. Well, I know, we’ve talked for the hour I’ve told you we would talk, and I want to be respectful of your time, and I’m sure you’re busy. GE: “Well, if you have more questions, I’m happy to answer them because right now you’re keeping me from a staff meeting which I am all about that.” DD: “Well I have one more question.” GE: “Okay.” DD: “Given your expertise, and all this experience. What are your concerns about PFAS contamination moving forward, either, you know, from human perspectives, personal perspectives, from work perspectives, what are your concerns about PFAS contamination looking into the future?” GE: “I guess my concern is that people become kind of a nerd to it, before there is very strong national regulations to keep them safe from- from this stuff. You know, and I think that is a big concern among the activists, community and some lawmakers who are trying to push for national drinking water standards. I don’t know if I have a great perspective on that because I’m in Michigan, which, you know over the last few years really learned- you know there’s a collective knowledge about it in Michigan to a much higher degree compared to states like Ohio even, well I guess not Ohio because they had the parkersburg, but other Great Lake states, and other states around the country where the testing hasn’t been done to show that, you know, it’s ‘Yes’ it’s ambiguous to the environment, it’s probably in some drinking water. You know, I guess last year during 2020, when the pandemic hit and everything, you know Covid was the only thing people were paying attention to, it was certainly the only thing that news editors cared about, you know 14 �followed by racial strife, you know in the summer, it was sort of- frustrating to have watched interest amongst the readership as well as, you know, your bosses just [plane noise] nose dive on that and I think we’ve gotten to a place now in 2020 you know where people are vaccinated and life seems to be kind of resuming in a normal fashion, where PFAS issues are kind of coming back and people are paying attention to that again. I can see it in the numbers on a particular headline, because we get- we can see how many people are reading stuff. There is the other concern that we keep replacing the chemicals that are in use now with newer versions of the same stuff. That’s what they’ve been doing right? Like PFOS has been phased out and so they bring in PFBS which is the same thing it just has a different number of Carbon atoms. It’s supposedly safer right? Well, is it? Probably not, right? We’ve talked to health experts and they’re like well it’s not any less toxic. It may not persist in the environment quite as long, but you know, you still shouldn’t be drinking that. And so there’s, you know, this sort of issue with manufacturing of these chemicals, which are obviously lucrative, and so it’s like as the problem evolves in this sort of industry, you know, looks to kind of keep that gravy train going, how does it evolve in a way- will it evolve in a way that we can kind of keep track of it and make sure that it’s not getting into the environment again or are we going to be repeating this years down the road. I remember even in the midst of Wolverine and all of this stuff breaking, people going ‘what’s the next PFAS going to be?’ and I’m like the next PFAS? Let’s deal with this PFAS right here instead of worrying about what the next thing is, but now I look back on that and think well that’s probably a smart thing to be worried about, right? Maybe we should be having that conversation now while this is happening versus ignoring it, you know, until we discover a new problem down the road. Those would be- I’ll probably think of a better answer once [laughs] we hang up, and I’ll be like oh there’s this thing. I wonder what it all means for people in general like what is the larger outcome of this science experiment that we’ve been playing on the human population with, you know, mutagenic chemicals that affect people’s DNA? What does that look like 50, 100 years down the road? What’s the world going to look like when my daughter is older, and she’s grown up? Those are things I think about too. DD: “Yeah. Before we wrap up, is there anything else that you would like to add that we haven’t touched on today? Or anything you’d like to go back to? I know there’s hoodles of things you could say but- “ GE: “Oh so much. You know, I- there’s a guy named Bob Delaney, who you may have heard of. Who really deserves just all the credit in Michigan for- and in some ways nationally, for being sort of the one who was out there kind of shouting that this was a problem, years before anyone was in a position to be able to understand that, or to acknowledge that. And he- you know, when I first called him about [?] in 2016, I didn’t know who Bob Delaney was. He’s a geologist, he’s a state scientist, well he’s retired now, at the time he was the state’s lead site manager for [?] and I expected that phone call to be ignored or to get an email back saying you know what you need to contact the PR people in order to set up an interview, in the way a lot of State and Federal 15 �employees do when a reporter calls, they’re like uhhh talk to the PR guy, but he didn’t do that. He recognized that what I was doing was important and he talked to me. And talked to me very frankly about the issue, and that was so different than most interactions you have as a reporter when talking to a government official. Without that, none of this would have happened I think in terms of the reporting and the stories and what not. Because I would- you know, the way he explained it to me and the knowledge I gained from him was absolutely crucial, to knowing that you’re on solid ground as a journalist on a topic you’re unfamiliar with, you know, you need sources you can trust, who are credible. If you have those, that's gold. He was that. I mean I can’t say enough about how important that was in order to, you know- because you know, writing about this sort of thing, you’re going to get people who try to knock it down right? And there’s going to be big, powerful institutions, you know, Wolverine Worldwide, 3M, attorneys for major law firms- they’re going to pick it apart, they’re going to, you know, try and find problems with it and I’m not a PhD, you know, I feel like I’m a smart enough guy, but I need to be able to trust the scientists who I’m talking to who are saying this is a huge problem, it’s worldwide, we’re not really dealing with it, here’s the potential health implications- I have to be able to trust they know what they’re talking about, and Bob Delaney did. He just deserves all the credit in the world for being, not only smart enough to figure out that this was an issue and start looking for it and taking actions to try and spur protections for people, as well as being open enough about it to speak to the media, and speak to journalists, and trust that they’re- you know, trust that process, you know, trust that that is still a valid way of getting good information out to the public-” 16 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Living with PFAS Interviews Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Devasto, Danielle Description An account of the resource Beginning in 2021, the Living with PFAS interviews were recorded to gather the personal stories of individuals impacted by PFAS contamination. PFAS, or per- and polyflourinated substances, are a large group of human-made chemicals used widely since the 1940s to make coatings and products resistant to heat, oil, stains, grease, and water. They can be found in countless household items, including food packaging, non-stick cookware, stain-resistant furniture, and water-resistant clothing. These chemicals are often called “forever chemicals” because they do not break down easily, can move through soils and contaminate drinking water sources, and build up in animals, plants, and people. PFAS have been linked to increased incidences of various cancers, increased cholesterol, decreased fertility, birth defects, kidney and liver disease, and immune system suppression, and thyroid dysfunction. It is estimated that PFAS are in the drinking water of more than 200 million Americans (Andrews & Naidenko, 2020). In Michigan alone, over 280 sites have PFAS contamination exceeding maximum contamination levels for groundwater (MPART, 2024). Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Living with PFAS (project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Personal narrative PFAs (Perfluorinated chemicals) Groundwater--Pollution Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-11 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf audio/mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Motion Picture Text Sound Language A language of the resource eng Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context PFAS0019 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Ellison, Garret Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021-06-29 Title A name given to the resource Garret Ellison, 2021 (Interview video and transcript) Description An account of the resource Garret Ellison is an investigative environmental reporter at Mlive and Grand Rapids Press in Michigan. In this interview, Ellison discusses PFAS contamination in the Wolverine Worldwide site in Rockford, MI and his role in breaking MI-based PFAS stories. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource DeVasto, Danielle (interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Personal narrative PFAs (Perfluorinated chemicals) Groundwater--Pollution Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Living with PFAS (project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/caa5bd91c381c933b6a638fb6405d362.pdf e331fb7b755b3e94145e20413966a9c2 PDF Text Text EMBASSY OF ISRAEL Programma van de bijeenkomst ter gelegenheid van de uitreiking van de Yad Vashem onderscheidingen op donderdag 1 november 1990 Welkom s twoord door de Edelachtbare heer drs. A.J. van Duist, Burgemeester van de Gemeente H aarlemmermeer Toespraak door mevrouw Frieda Yovel, Eerste Secretaris voor Culturele Zaken van de Ambassade van Israël Toe spraak door de heer Dr. Ir. E.M. Wikler, Voorzitter van het Nederlands Israëlitisch Kerkgenootschap Ui trei k in g der onderscheidingen Toespraken door een aantal personen die gered ztJn. Toesprak en door een aantal personen die gedecoreerd z1Jn !\1uzikale om lij st ing door mevro uw P. Tieman - harp t< .t ;1flol:p van de plec hti gheid zal koffie en th ee worde n geservee t'd . �r i. Geëerd wordt de heer Robert van Amerongen; hij neemt zelf de onch..·1·..: rlieiding in ontvangst. Mevrouw M.E. Gom i1~. s-Lohatto was 14 toen zij haar ouJerlijk huis moe st verruilen voor het onderduikadres dat de heer Van Amerongen voo r haar had gevonden. Haar broer Jaap moest in september van het?.e lfdc jaar ook onderduiken. Mevrouw Gompes had van Robert van Amero,1gc11 gehoord dat haar nichtje Betty de Vries, op het nippertje had ku nnen <.;ntsnappen de dag voordat haar hele familie door de Duitser:-; werd .~cdepo1teerJ . De heer Van Amerongen kenck B-2t1y omdat zijn vader Eugcls doceerde aan het Vossius Gymnasium, waa r Bdty naar school ging. l'vkvronv Gompes dook eerq bij de familie Visser onder en daarn:t vo lgdr nog: een hele rij v:m andere ondercb i!"<id r:sscn in Alkmaur, Bergen, I\-1aastricht en uiteind e lijk in Brecht, \vaar zij ble ef tot cic be\'rijding. Gedurende deze hele Odyssee bleef Robert van Amerongen haar help..:n, niet in het minst door haar regelmatig van distributiekaarten te voorzien . De groep die door Robert van Amerongen werd geleid, bestond uit , mgcvecr zeventien leden, w,rnrvan er enkelen in de Laai aanwez ig zij 11. TcgL·n het einde van de oorlog h:td deze groep zo'n 100 zo ge naamd e 'klanten'. De heer Van Arncr<lllf!Cll onderhield het contact met andere organisaties die voor valse papieren, geld enz. zorgden. Tijdens cle oorlng had hij geen baan en wijdde hij zich dag en nacht aan zijn dappere illegale werk. 2. Geëerd worden de heer Alhertus Johanus Brinkrn_an eu mevrouw ·M argaretha Sofia Alberta Brinkman-cle Groot en zij nemen de onderscheiding in ontvangst. Tegelijkertijd wordt postuum geëerd de heer Theoclorus Henricus van den Berg en zijn vrouw, Antje Geertrui eb Petronella van den Berg-de Groot die eveneens wordt geëerd, neemt de onder:-.cheicting in ontvangst. ''- Kort voordat hij gedeporteerd werd vroeg de heer Frankfort aan J\1argaretha <le Groot om voor zijn zu~ter en haar twee kleine kinderen te zorgen. Voor de oorlog werkten Margaretha de Groot en de oom van John en 13LTlha Koekoek in dezelfde fabriek. Toen het ec11tp· i:1 r Koekoek gechvongen werd om naar Amsterdam te gaan, vroegen zij Ma rgare tha ck Yael Vashem Blz.~l~ 1990 �zorg voor de kleintjes, John en Bertha Koekoek (tegenwoordig mevrouw Riecker-Koekoek), op zich te nemen. Margaretha, die net getrouwd was met de heer Albertus Brinkman,smokkelde de kinderen uil wal de'joodse \ wijk' werd genoemd en liet ze bij hen thuis onderduiken. John Koekoek was vijf jaar oud en erg "praatgraag". Margaretha zocht en vond een veiliger plaats voor hem bij haar zuster Antje die getrouwd was met de heer Theodorus van den Berg. Bertha bleef bij Margaretha. Beide families behandelden de kinderen alsof het hun eigen kinderen waren. De heer en mevrouw Van den Berg namen nog een joods onderduikgezin bij hen op, de heer en mevrouw Meier Mannheim en hun zoon Sally. Ook deze woonden bij hen van november 1943 tot aan het einde van de oorlog. De heer en mevrouw Brinkman werden na de oorlog officieel de pleegouders van Bertha Riecker-Koekoek en zij gaven haar een goede opleiding als basis voor een vrij en zelfstandig leven. 3. Postuum worden geëerd mevrouw Clasien Haasnoot-van E1:mond en haar echtgenoot, de heer Cornelis Haasnoot. Moses van West en zijn vrouw waren eerst ondergedoken bij de familie De Koning. Na ongeveer 4 maanden werden vele razzia's gehouden in de omgeving en de dreiging van een inval bij familie De Koning werd acuut. Mevrouw De Koning zorgde ervoor, dal de heer en mevrouw Van West in huis konden komen bij Cornelis en Clasien Haasnoot. De heer en mevrouw Van West kregen een dochter, Rosa. die op 13 juni 1944 in het Elizabeth Ziekenhuis in Leiden werd geboren. Dankzij de medewerking van Dr. A Kuiper kon de geboorte van Rosa daar plaatsvinden. Na 13 dagen in het ziekenhuis kwamen moeder en baby terug bij de familie Haasnoot. Daar bleven zij tot het einde van de oorlog. Het echtpaar Haasnoot stond het gezin Van West hun eigen slaapkamer af. De familie Haasnoot was gelovig. Zij waren Gereformeerd en zeer trouwe kerkgangers. Hun Christelijke levensovertuiging gaf hun een groot vertrouwen in G'd's voorzienigheid. Gelukkig waren de buren te vertrouwen. In het dorp voelden de families die onderduikers in huis hadden zich gesteund door de plaatselijke verzetsorganisatie. Yad Vashem Blz. ~2~ 1990 �4. Geëerd worden de heer Martinus Leenderd Mussert en zijn echtgenote mevrouw Alida Jacoba Mussert-Paats; zij nemen zelf de onderscheidi ng in ontvangst. Gedurende de oorlog.._ funC' ;_ ·'leerde de heer Mussert als een soort 'verdeler' van onderduikadressen voor joodse medeburgers. Hij zocht en organiseerde de onderduikplaatsen totdat deze medeburgers veilig naar hun nieuwe adres konden komenen. Soms bracht hij cle mensen eerst een tijdje onder in zijn eigen huis. tvlevrouw P. Rosenberg-de Leeuw en wijlen Dr. Julius Leydesdorff zijn twee van cle door het echtpaar Mussert geredde onderduikers. In haar getuigenis schreef Mevrouw C. van Rhijn-Leyclesdorff dat haar vader, Dr. Leyclesclorff ,blind was . Toen het risico van deportatie groter werd, nam een bevriend medicus haar vader op in het ziekenhuis van Apeldoorn, waar hij een oogoperatie fingeerde. Een verpleegster daar, mevrouw J. Paats, hoorde dat de nazi's het ziekenhuis wilden ontruimen en zij waarschuwde vanuit het ziekenhuis haar zwager, de heer Mussert, die in Leiden woonde. Diezelfde dag nog kwam hij Dr. Leydesdorff halen. rvlevrouw J. Paats werd al enige jaren geleden geëerd met de Yael Vashem onderscheiding. Naast het huisvesten van onderduikers. had clc heer l'vlussert ook andere grote verdiensten: hij bracht op cle fiets distributiebonnen voor levensmiddelen naar de diverse onderduikadressen. Deze bonnen waren gestolen door het Verzet in Apeldoorn en \varen voorzien van een zegel van een zogenaamde "Ziekenvoedsel" organisatie en de handtekening: "Mussert". Ook Mevrouw P. Rosenberg-cle Leeuw is door Rein en Ali Mussert .._ geholpen. Zij bleef twee maanden bij hen ondergedoken totdat er ook voor haar een veiliger adres was gevonden. 5. Geëerd wordt mevrouw vVilhelmina C.Ch. Sarstädt; cle onderscheiding zal in ontvangst worden genomen door haar kleinkinderen, Ruben en Ilana Vogel. Benno Vogel was enig kind. Voordat zijn ouders door de Duitsers werden weggevoerd, vroegen zij een niet-joodse vriendin om voor hun zoon te zorgen 'totdat zij terug zouden komen'. Beide ouders kwamen echter in Auschwitz om. 13enno kwam als baby in 19..J.2 bij mevrouw Yad Yashem Blz. ~3~ 1990 �Sarstädt en zij verzorgde hem gedurende de gehele oorlog met veel liefde. Zoals zij de ouders had beloofd, vroeg zij na de oorlog aan de Joodse organisatie voor Oorlogspleegkinderen of zij Benno Vogel mocht adopteren. Volgens de archieven van deze organisatie werd de voogdij aan de Stichting toegewezen met mevrouw Sarstädt als een soort covoogdes. In die dagen probeerde deze organisatie contact te behouden met joodse kinderen die in niet-joodse gezinnen verbleven. De aantekeningen in het archief van de Stichting "Joods Maatschappelijk Werk" getuigen, dat mevrouw Sarstädt de contacten met de organisatie verwelkomde en dat zij Benno opvoedde in het besef dat hij een joods kind was. Vanaf 1942 heeft zij zeer hard gewerken om in hun lv' idcr lev ensonderhoud te voorzien. Nog steeds noemt Benno Vogel mevrouw Sarstädt 'moeder' en hij getuigt van haar goedheid en liefderijke zorgen. 6. Geëerd worden Mevrouw Trijntje van Stam-Jansen en haar echtgenoot, de heer Cornelis van Stam: zij nemen zelf de onderscheiding in ontvangst. Cor van Stam coördineerde als 'Cor van de Meer' in de jaren '40-'45 het verzet in de Haarlemmem1eer. Dat verzet richtte zich in het bijzonder op de plaatsing en verzorging van ruim 3600 onderduikers, onder wie circa 600 joodse Nederlanders. Diverse joodse onderduikers, die door de heer en mevrouw Van Stam werden gered, zijn hier vandaag aanwezig: Mevrouw D. Busnach-van Bienen, de heer M. van Kleef en mevrouw S.A. van Kleef-Blitz, de heer R. van Kleef, mevrouw F. Jansen-Deen, de heer I.S. Meyer, en mevrouw A.S. Spier. Van september 1942 tot de bevrijding in mei 1945, bleef Ant oincltc Spier ondergedoken bij het echtpaar Van Stam. De heer en mevrouw van Stam waren nog maar net getrouwd en beiden waren actief in het Verzet. Toen het voor Antoinette te gevaarlijk werd om in hun huis te blijven, · moest zij tijdelijk op een veiliger plaats onderduiken. Het echtpaar Van Stam waarschuwde anderen over op handen zijnde razzia's en was voortdurend in de weer om goede onderduikadressen te vinden. In september 1944 werden de activiteiten in en om de Haarlemm ermeer een onderdeel van de Binnenlandse Strijdkrachten. Op 25 jarige leeftijd werd ,, , 1 1 1_ A ,nnn �de heer Van Stam Gewestelijk Commandant van de B.S. voo r Gewest 12, te weten Noord-Holland. Op 5 mei 1982 ontving mevrouw Van Stam-Jansen het Verzetsherdenkingskruis uit handen van Z.K.H. Prins Bernhard. De heer Van Stam, die inmiddels burgemeester van de Haarlemmermeer was, werd op 11 november 1982 eveneens met het Verzetsherdenkingskruis ge~e rd. 7. Geëerd worden de heer Cor Termaat en zijn echtgenote Mevrouw Dorie Termaat-Bartelds_ e n zij nemen zelf de onderscheiding in ontvangst. i\1evrouw Betty Strijland-de Vries werd in de oorlog do or Cor en Dorie Termaat gered. De heer Strijland heeft d onderschciJing aangevraagd namens zijn in 1987 overleden vrouw. Kort nacb t Betty door de hee r Robert van Amerongen, die eveneens vandaag wo rdt geëerd, clcle rs was ondergebracht, werden al haar andere gezinsleden, te weten haar ouders, haar twee broers en haar zuster Vera, weggevoerd van hun laa tste woonadres. Betty zei dikwijls: "Aan Cor en Dorie J ank ik mijn 1cven". Op 20 juni 1943 kwam Robert van Amerongen Betty halen. Zij werd naar de familie Harder gebracht. In juni 1944 , besl oot Jan Harder. de zoon, geen gehoor te geven aan de oproep om zich bij de Duitse rs te melden en besloot onder te duiken. Daarom moest er voor Betty een veiliger plaats worden gezocht . Deze werd gevonden bij Cor en Dorie Termaat, waar nog drie andere onderduikers waren. Eerst Mau en Hetty Klijnkramer en later ook hun zoontje Rudi, die hier vandaag aanwezig is. Toen Cor en Dorie hoorden dat het zoontje van de Klijnkramers in Den Haag was ondergedoken, zeiden ze meteen, dat deze ook bij hen moes t komen wonen. Rudi werd opgehaald en naar de familieTermaat gebracht. Betty de Vries verbleef bij de familie Termaat van juni 1944 tot maart 1945. Om dat het toen te gevaarlijk werd om daar langer te blijven, verbleef zij vanaf maart tot de bevrijding bij de familie van Amerongen. Na de oorlog werd Betty opnieuw door Cor en Dorie Termaat als het ware gered. Zij verleenden haar een grote mate van geestelijke bijstand en gaven haar voortdurend blijk van hun grote liefde en vriendschap. 1 (_) (_)(\ �8. Postuum wordt geëerd de heer vVillem Vader. Zijn echtgenote mevrouw Truus Vader-vVoudenberg die eveneens wordt geëerd neemt de onderscheiding in ontvangst. Tegelijkertijd wordt postuum geëerd Or.Marinus Jacob Heering. Zijn vrouw neemt de onderscheiding voor hem in ontvangst. Mevrouw en de heer Van Frank waren in 1943 ondergedoken by familie Kramers. Gedurende haar verblijf raakte zij in verwachting. Zij hebben Dr. Heering gebeld (die zelf in het verzet zat en in 1943 ook was ondergedoken). Voordat hij zelf ging onderduiken heeft hij de familie van Frank het telefoon nummer van zijn onderduikadres gegeven en gevraagd hem te bellen als er gevaar dreigde. llij beloofde bij de bevalling te assisteren en iemand te vinden die de baby zou "adopteren." Dit heeft hij allemaal gedaan. Dr. Heering bracht mevrouw Van Frank naar een ziekenhuis waar dochter Carla werd ....2.eboren. Na een week kwam mevrouw Vader de baby halen en Carla bleef meer dan een jaar bij hen Toen de ouders na de oorlog haar dochtertje kwamen halen, gaf mevrouw Vader nog nieuwe kleertjes mee in een tijd van groot tekort. De relatie tussen deze twee moeders is in al die jaren bijzonder hecht geweest. Helaas is mevrouw Van Frank om gezondheidsredenen niet in staat bij deze uitreiking aanwezig te zijn,maar haar dochter Carla 1s samen met haar broer uit Israël overgekomen. Yad Vashem Blz. ~6~ 1990 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Adriana B. and Peter N. Termaat collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Termaat, Adriana B. (Schuurman) Termaat, Peter N. Description An account of the resource Collection contains genealogical, personal, and family papers and photographs documenting the lives and interests of Adriana and Peter Termaat. The bulk of the materials are related to family history and genealogical research carried out by the Termaats, including research notes and materials about places in the Netherlands that were significant to the Termaat and Schuurman families, such as the city of Alkmaar. Other materials in the collection are related to the Termaats' experiences on the eve of and during the Second World War, especially the German occupation of the Netherlands and the Termaats' participation in organized resistance to the Nazis. Also included are materials that document the family's post-war life in the United States, including their public efforts to recognize, commemorate, and honor people and events significant to World War II. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1869 - 2012 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/719">Adriana B. and Peter N. Termaat collection, RHC-144</a> Subject The topic of the resource Netherlands Netherlands--History--German occupation, 1940-1945 World War, 1939-1945 World War, 1939-1945 -- Underground movements -- Netherlands Dutch Dutch Americans Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-144 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Text Image Type The nature or genre of the resource application/pdf image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng nl Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-144_Termaat_DOC_1990-11-01-Program-Yad-Vashem Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Embassy of Israel Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1990-11-01 Title A name given to the resource Yad Vashem meeting program Description An account of the resource Program of the meeting on the occasion of the presentation of the Yad Vashem awards on Thursday November 1, 1990. In Dutch. Subject The topic of the resource Righteous Gentiles in the Holocaust Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/719">Adriana B. and Peter N. Termaat collection (RHC-144)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Language A language of the resource nl Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. 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^�87�1��ÿ6;�Z2]Gb;>23ÿÿ $%.UT-T)ÿU.eS.f,KHK).)/ÿÿ 0����1232�ÿÿ Q�"8723h:ÿ"7�:"92ÿ $R.L).TUÿI.JeSHL./ÿÿ N732�"2�2�ÿÿ 456623ÿ7�!�"�"ÿ��895�2:ÿ:6�99ÿ";ÿ 62��56ÿ3�<23ÿ���ÿ:"32�6ÿ8;33�= �;3:ÿ>�"7ÿ>299ÿ�2<29;?2�ÿ3�?�3���ÿ >;;�:@ÿ>;;�9;":ÿ>�"7��ÿAÿ";ÿBÿ 6�92:ÿ;Cÿ:6�99ÿ";ÿ62��56ÿ3�<23:ÿ ���ÿ:"32�6:@ÿ���ÿ5?9���ÿC;32:":Dÿ E�<2:ÿ���ÿ6��2:ÿ�:ÿ7�!23��859�Dÿÿ O�!23��"2:ÿ��ÿ8�<2:ÿ���ÿ6��2:ÿGÿ :>�36��1ÿ��ÿ:533;5����1ÿ>;;�2�ÿ �32�:ÿ��ÿ�5"56�DÿP;;:":ÿ���ÿC;3= �12:ÿ��ÿ5?9���ÿC;32:":ÿ�53��1ÿ :?3��1ÿ���ÿ:56623Dÿ W2�872:ÿ�9;�1ÿ:7;329��2:ÿ;Cÿ"72ÿ X32�"ÿY�Z2:ÿ \�9]ÿ�8V;�:ÿ"7�"ÿ;8853ÿ�9;�1ÿ 8;�:"�9ÿ�32�:ÿ�53��1ÿ"72ÿP2�ÿ[�;"ÿ 6�13�";3]ÿ>���;>ÿ;Cÿÿ^_`ÿAÿGÿ 40QN0^W0PÿBaÿ 4;�9:ÿ:�"53�"2�ÿ>�"7ÿ8;9�ÿb;>��1ÿ :?3��1ÿ>�"23@ÿC;5��ÿ�9;�1ÿ:22?�1= 2:gÿ:"32�6:ÿ���ÿ9�Z2:7;32:ÿ 4"�!�9�i2�ÿ�5�2:ÿ���ÿ!9;>;5"ÿÿÿ �32�:ÿ 01ÿ �ÿ ÿ4556789ÿÿ �7�����������6ÿ��5�ÿ Road Network Vil lage of Empire - N A Shakia Park Staie Trunki ne Chippewa Run l ,100 Average Annual Deily Traffic (2016) - - Natural Area <ii Private 5treet t: 11. Public St reet F ishe SI saws u,y or J.unn R. John.~on Memorial P;irl( illi St ri s; Wile• SI c § Michigan cii ~ ~. Sleeping Bear Dunes National Lakeshore 05 Networks Northwest 01ÿ "' "t:fr--- -~1 Ayi>Nonh SI 012) I .;; 1 Mie gan 81-- 5 0 Wiloe �ÿ Wate r Service Village of Empire N A ' - _._. I Fbrem:e \,t I Shakia Park Walei Service I Pa ,eel Chippewa Run Natu ral Area \l!I ca nt - 1 n st!MlonaJ - $ I State TrunkJine I I I I I ;;:; • 8 .5 .--.. Lake Michigan Beach Park I I Village JAme, R. John,on U tmorial Pa.tit I Sa lo l uiy .- - 1 I I \ - !heJ.P :,t - 1.:1 mbk in. l.n Pces.erve I "'"' l))'r,lf 0 Q C J i ~ "' I ; '\ - _ ~~o!h? __ - - ... - -- - . - - ... .., Pl-r.t',fA?P"°' l n ~ \Vashi l'M)~On. SI ✓ "' I I ' "'' J· Sleeping Bear Dunes tl ational l akes hore -----c::=====-----------===========-----------MilH _ 0 0.125 0 2S o..s Networks Northwest ......... , OJS 1 Tbs map I> lnt=nd:<l t,, ref:t~noe only anti 1=prese:nu a geogaphical interp-e\a;ion, NOT a form-al survey. 01ÿ �ÿ ÿ4556789ÿÿ ����ÿ����6�ÿ���7ÿ����ÿ Table l Population Change (1940-2010) Village of Empire, Empire Township and Leelanau County Percent Percent 1940 Change 1950 Change 1940-50 1950-60 •.m ,., ,, r ~ Empire Township (excluding Village) Leelanau County 325 Percent Change 1960 Percent Change 1970 1970-80 1960-70 Percent Change 1980 Percent Change 1990 1980-90 2000 1990-00 P ercell! Change 2010 2000-10 -5.6 2J! u. J 448 - 8.7 409 - 15.6 1 31 2.9 355 6.5 378 -0.8 373 -15.7 274 37.2 376 45.5 547 -16.6 456 10.3 503 40.6 707 14.4 809 8,647 7.8 9,32 1 16.6 10,872 28.8 14,007 18.0 16,527 27.8 21,119 2.8 21,708 8,436 2.5 Note: Township populations. excluding the Village, are provided in paremheses: percem change is calculated for the emire To\\11ship. including Village ponion. Source: Northwest Michigan Council of Govemmems Table 2 Age Distribution Village of Empire, Leelanau Comity, State - 2000 and 2010 Age Group Leelau,111 County Village of Empire 2000 2010 Total Percent Total Percent 0-4 y ears 8 2. 1 18 4.8 5- 17 years 51 13.5 32 8 .5 % Change 2000-2010 I 2000 20 10 State 2000 2010 Percent Percent 125.0 5.1 4.3 6.8 6.0 -37.3 19.3 17.7 19.3 15.2 Percent Percent 18-24 years 24 6.3 8 2.1 -66.7 5.7 5.7 9.4 9.9 25-44 years 73 19.3 63 16.8 -1 3.7 24.2 16.9 29.8 24.7 45-64 years 133 35.2 143 38.1 7.5 28.3 34.4 22.4 27.9 89 23.5 111 29.6 24.7 17.4 23.4 12.3 13.8 65 + Total Median Age 378 -0.8 375 49.1 56.8 I 42.6 I I 50.3 35.5 38.9 Note: Due to rounding. percentages may not sum to I 00 percent. Source: U.S. Bureau of the Census. Table 3 Seasonal Housing Characteristics Village of Empire, Empire Tov.'11Ship, Leelanau County and State of Michigan - 2010 Total Units Seasonal Units % Seasonal V illage of Empue 347 113 32.6 Em pire To\vnship 1,088 442 40.6 Leelanau County 14,935 4,681 3 1.3 State of M ichigan 4,532,233 263,071 5_8 Source: US Census Bureau Census 2010 01ÿ �ÿ ÿ4556789ÿÿ ����ÿ����6�ÿ���7ÿ����ÿ���7�97�68�ÿ Table 4 Value of Specified Owner-Occupied H ousing Units Village of Empire - 2005-2009 Housing Yalues Percent of Units Less th.an $50,000 0.0 $50 ,000 - 99,000 1.7 SI00,000 • 149,000 11.3 SI S0,000- 199.000 19.1 $200,000 · 299,000 42.6 $300,000 or more 25 .2 $238,000 Median Value Source: US Census Bureau Conununity Survey (2005-2009) Table S Inco me Statistics Village of Empire, Empire Township, Leelanau Cotmty and State of Michigan (in 2009 inflation-adj u5ted dollars) Village of £ moire 172 !\umber of H ouseholcls E mpire Townshio 563 Leelanau Countv 9,354 44 18 34 105 124 95 57 36 33 17 43 ,973 35,109 449 299 1,098 1,064 1,436 1,789 1,258 1,169 366 426 54,451 31,874 T otal Households Households Income Levels Less than $10,000 30 $ 10,000 to $ 14,999 13 $ 15,000 to $24,999 22 $25,000 to $34,999 23 $35,000 to $49,999 40 $50,000 to $74,999 6 $75,000 to $99,999 18 $ 100,000 to $149,999 14 $ 150,000 to $199,999 6 $200,000 or more 0 32,045 1\Iedi an household income 28,000 Per caoita income Source: US Census Bureau Community Survey (2005-2009) 01ÿ State of l\Iichigan $ 48,700 $ 25,172 �ÿ ÿ4556789ÿÿ ����ÿ����6�ÿ���7ÿ����ÿ���7�97�68�ÿ Tabl e 6 Civilia n Lab or For ce Comp arisons ancl Unemploym ent Leelanau County and State of Michigan 2006-20 10 Sta te of M icbigan (in l ,000' s) Leelanau County 2010 Labor F orce 2008 2006 20 10 2008 2006 10,769 11,234 11,628 4,790 4,936 5,068 Employed 9,684 10,544 11,048 4,193 4,519 4,719 Unemployed 1,085 690 580 597 4 16 350 10.1 6. 1 5.0 12.5 8.4 6.9 Unemployment Rate % Source: Office ofLabor Market Infonuation, Michigan Department ofTechnology, Management and Budget Table 7 Employment by I nclus try 2009 Village and County Village of Empire Industry Nwnber Agriculrure, forestry, fishing, hunting, and mining Percent Leelanau County Number Percent 0 0.0 43 0 4.4 20 15.3 1.065 10.9 M.inufacmring 3 2.3 774 7.9 Wholesale trade 12 9.2 204 2.1 Retail trade 46 35.1 1.108 11.3 Transportation warehousing. and utilities 0 0.0 3 15 3.2 Information 3 2.3 163 1.7 Finance, insurance, real estate, rental and leasing 6 4.6 537 5.5 Professional. scientific, management, administrative. and waste management services 2 l.S 837 8.5 Educational, health, and social services 20 15.3 2,463 25.2 Arts. entertainment, recreation, accommodation, and food services 11 8.4 1,279 13.1 Other services ( except public administration) 6 4.6 406 4.1 Public administration 2 l.S 2 11 2.2 Construction Source: U.S. Census Bureau Community Survey (2005-2009) 01ÿ �ÿ ÿ4556789ÿÿ ����ÿ����6�ÿ���7ÿ����ÿ���7�97�68�ÿ Table 8 Sleeping Bear Dunes National L akesh or e Conmarative Annual Public Use D ata Year Total Vi~its Coast Guard Station Dune Climb 2011 20 10 2009 2008 2007 1,348,304 30,999 96,738 1,280,934 1,165,836 1.104.597 1.134.3 12 1.147,3 14 1,2 18,4 10 1.114,6 15 1,153,962 1,170,873 1,127,107 1,195,084 1,364,834 1,298,205 30,561 27.297 22.720 2 1.986 22.120 22.466 31.402 26,307 28,580 32,549 38,182 30,274 84,738 81.320 78.928 83.3 15 2006 2005 2004 2003 2002 2001 2000 1999 1998 1997 1996 1995 1994 1,157,6 16 1,09 1.005 1.15 1.957 1.159,676 29,049 25,745 18.434 24.958 26.217 Stocking S. Drive 113,400 101,094 92,287 82.779 83.345 84.472 Source: U.S. National Park Service 01ÿ Platte River Visitor Center 28,726 83,482 196,945 8 1,598 73.686 74,4 14 79.363 84.008 86,708 79,713 80,037 85,822 81 ,035 84,060 114,088 90,477 170,251 158.982 135,978 133.42 1 118,836 11 7,032 123,119 137,780 126,887 125,577 132,427 134,808 89,828 89,846 8 1,517 34,92 1 2 8.32 1 2 8.008 31.798 25.54 7 25.547 22.974 25,022 28,0 12 25,007 3 1,205 35,683 3 1,888 2 3,764 2 3,120 71 .028 70.466 97.282 125,621 2 3.477 36.047 77.566 84,301 79.213 79.289 94,853 82,527 78,837 78,753 89,278 82,327 84,297 85,74 1 82,265 50,990 90,3 16 100,660 89.080 92.593 83.474 83,645 8 1,795 73,796 66,791 93,149 98,332 Esch Road 73.278 80,987 �ÿ Section 4.09 Schedule of Regulations Min. Lot Area ZoninQ District District Name Area Max_Ht of structure (sq. tt) Width (ft) Feet (a) Yard Setbacks Front (ft) Min. Side Min. Rear {tt) (ft) Min. space btwn Min_ Min. Alley Water Bldgs General Residential 12,500 100 35 20min 10 10 10 20 20 MR Mixed Residential 2 ac (c) 150 35 40min 20 20 20 (d) 20 40 900 I - Maximum Lot CoveraQe % 25% (b) 1 BR- 540/ OU 40% (b) 2 BR 700/DU VR Village Residential 6,250 so 35 10min 20max 5 10 10 I - CR Commercial Residential 5,000 so 35 5 min 20 max 0 (e) (f) 10 (f) 10 - Light llndustrial 1 acre 100 35 20min 15 (t) 20 10 _ , 3acres 300 35 10min 10 20 20 20 LI 01ÿ RIC Recreation/Conservation PUD Planned Unit Development a) b) c) d) e) f) g) Key: See Article 7 I I I I 10 1 750 10 (g) 10 I 750 I NA 20 I 900 - 50"/4 - 70% NA 60% - 10% See Article 7 Maximum height for an accessory building shall be 25 feet or the height of the primary structure, whichever is l ess. Existing 50' wide (or less) platted lots shall be perm itted a maximum of 50 perce-nl building coverage. A min imum of 8,700 square feet or lot area is requjred per dwelling unit. Minimum setback from an internal drive serving multiµle family dwellings, shall be 10 feet. Minimum O' side yard setback applies when a commercial use is adj acent to a commeroial use, the setback is increased to 5' for a commercial use adjacent to a residential use, or for a residential use adjacent to another residential use. Except when adjaoent to a different zoning di strict, the greater of the two di strict side setback standards applies . T he minimum buildin g spacin g does not apply far the portion of a building utilizing the zero setback provision, p rovided a firewall is provided between buildings located on the property line. D.U. - Dwelling Unit sq . fl -square feet Arti cle 4 : D.istricls Vi/Jage o f Empire Zoning Ordinance fl -feet 4-15 Amended: De-cember 8, 2011 Effective : December 29, 2011 ÿ4556789ÿÿ ��797�ÿ����6����68��6ÿ��ÿ�6�����9�7�ÿ GR Min_ & Max_SF per D.U or Main bldg � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Wyckoff Planning and Zoning Collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Planning & Zoning Center (Lansing, Mich.) (Organization) Wyckoff, Mark A. Description An account of the resource Municipal master plans and zoning ordinances from across the state of Michigan, spanning from the 1960s to the early 2020s. The bulk of the collection was compiled by urban planner Mark Wyckoff over the course of his career as the founder and principal planner of the Planning and Zoning Center in Lansing, Michigan. Some additions have been made to the collection by municipalities since it was transferred to Grand Valley State University. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Michigan Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1960/2023 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/870">Planning and Zoning Center Collection (RHC-240)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/NoC-US/1.0/">No Copyright - United States</a> Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Comprehensive plan publications Master plan reports Zoning--Michigan Zoning--Maps Maps Land use--planning Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-240 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Language A language of the resource eng Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Empire_Master-Plan_2019 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Empire Planning Commission, Village of Empire, Empire Township, Leelanau County, Michigan Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2019 Title A name given to the resource Village of Empire Master Plan Description An account of the resource The Village of Empire Master Plan was prepared by the Empire Planning Commission with the assistance of Networks Northwest in 2019. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Networks Northwest (consultant) Subject The topic of the resource Master plan reports Empire (Mich.) Empire Township (Mich.) Leelanau County (Mich.) Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/870">Planning and Zoning Center Collection (RHC-240)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/NoC-US/1.0/">No Copyright - United States</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ec6630156570208f588c41f260363b08.pdf 9e70cd417bb7b0d4c04ab83418826312 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Ana Encarnación Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 7/10/2012 Biography and Description Ana Encarnación is from the San Juan metropolitan area of Puerto Rico and describes growing up there in the late 1930s and 1940s. She arrived in Chicago in the 1950s, settling in Old Town, along the border dividing Old Town from neighboring Lincoln Park. She lived on the south side of North Avenue, at the corner of Sedgewick. This is significant to note because it was the same barrio on either side of North Avenue, and on either side of Interstate 94. It was demonstrated later by community activists that the city used some areas of this highway to divide neighborhoods. The Puerto Rican barrio of the early 1960s stretched all the way from La Clark into Lincoln Park, and then west into Wicker Park and into Humboldt Park. For sure, then it was never called by those official names, as those were only the official city neighborhood boundaries which common folk Puerto Ricans were unaware existed. Their neighborhood was only one, as they shopped at the same stores, went to the same theatres, churches, restaurants, entertaining themselves at the same parks, beaches, and social eventsMs. Encarnación recalls that the early 1950s in Puerto Rico were rough for someone like her who sympathized with the Nationalist Party of Don Pedro Albizu Campos. She was never a member of the Party, but she loves Puerto Rico and has always wanted Puerto Rico to belong to the Puerto Ricans and to break from under the control of the United States or anyone else. When the Young Lords decided in 1968 to start to defend the Puerto Ricans and the poor from being displaced, it was her dream come true to join the �Young Lords Movement. She saw it as a way to help her people. Although Ms. Encarnación would hear the negative things that the police and the media were saying about the Young Lords, she says she did not believe any of it. She had already experienced a similar kind of repression in Puerto Rico in the 1950s as she herself was persecuted, and so she watched only for what she believed to be true. She was determined at all costs to not let the authorities prevent her from becoming politically engaged in the Lincoln Park community. Ms. Encarnación was in nursing and so she began to work in the Young Lords’ Emeterio Betances Free Health Clinic. The clinic was directed by Martha and Alberto Chavarria; Mr. Chavarria was the Young Lords’ Minister of Health. The Chavarrias are of Mexican descent and arrived at the Young Lords’ People’s Church on Armitage Avenue and Dayton Street via their membership in the Medical Committee for Human Rights. This committee was founded by Dr. Quentin Young. Dr. Young also helped to set up neighborhood clinics for the Black Panthers, providing his own personal funds when necessary and helping to secure used equipment and other hospital resources. Doctors, medical and nursing students were recruited to volunteer in the clinics. Dr. Quentin Young and the Medical Committee for Human Rights had a progressive history that included providing emergency medical care for the protesters at the Democratic National Convention in Chicago in 1968. Dr. Jack Johns was the doctor on duty at the Betances Clinic. He and a committee that Ms. Encarnación was a member of directed the clinic for many years, long after the Young Lords left the People’s Church. The clinic was later transferred to St. Teresa’s Church. Ms. Encarnación describes how the volunteer staff, including herself, not only provided many long hours of free services to the Puerto Ricans and poor of Lincoln Park but when money was low, they also donated from their own personal savings to keep the clinic afloat. � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/98e4f3b06c2d7bbd26a975e399e7c70e.mp4 f81fa79d6bd7ccddb6da097c91e8a05a Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Ana Encarnación vídeo entrevista y biografía Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puertorriqueños--Relatos personales Idioma español--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Puertorriqueños--Illinois--Chicago--Vida social y costumbres Centros médicos--Illinois--Chicago Puertorriqueños--Illinois--Chicago--Condiciones sociales Renovación urbana--Illinois--Chicago Puerto Rico--Autonomía y movimientos independentistas Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Encarnacion_Ana Title A name given to the resource Ana Encarnación video interview and biography Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Encarnación, Ana Description An account of the resource Ana Encarnación is from the San Juan metropolitan area of Puerto Rico and describes growing up there in the late 1930s and 1940s. She arrived in Chicago in the 1950s, settling in Old Town, along the border dividing Old Town from neighboring Lincoln Park. She lived on the south side of North Avenue, at the corner of Sedgewick. When the Young Lords decided in 1968 to start to defend the Puerto Ricans and the poor from being displaced, it was her dream come true to join the Young Lords Movement. She saw it as a way to help her people. Ms. Encarnación was in nursing and so she began to work in the Young Lords’ Emeterio Betances Free Health Clinic. Ms. Encarnación describes how the volunteer staff, including herself, not only provided many long hours of free services to the Puerto Ricans and poor of Lincoln Park but when money was low, they also donated from their own personal savings to keep the clinic afloat. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puerto Ricans--Personal narratives Spanish language--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Puerto Ricans--Illinois--Chicago--Social life and customs Medical care--Illinois--Chicago Puerto Ricans--Illinois--Chicago--Social conditions Urban renewal--Illinois--Chicago Puerto Rico--Autonomy and independence movements Language A language of the resource spa Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-07-10 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8e2bdbd8cee6cbfa5b71aad35191ae49.pdf ebc892d938a4b3c1eeee655faf112a8f PDF Text Text Head Dancers George & Sidney Martin Host Drum Head Vet Dancer 2nd Drum Star Singers Frank Bush Two Hawk Singers Master of Ceremonies Open Drum John Bailey Blessing of Grounds at Sunrise Arena Director Frank Shipman GRAND ENTRY SUNDAY 1 P.M. 7 P.M. GRAND ENTRY SATURDAY 1 P.M. 7 P.M. MEMORIAL WEEK-END 1991 - - - - - - - -PUBLIC W E L C O M E - - - - - - - •TRADERS WELCOME •NO CARNIVAL WAGONS •NO IMPORTS •NO IMITATION INDIAN JEWELRY (ENFORCED) •NO ALCOHOL OR DRUGS DINNER SATURDAY NIGHT FOR DANCERS AND TRADERS. LIMITED ELECT $10.00 WEEKEND. FREE CAMPING FOR DANCERS. RAFFLE-SEVERAL ITEMS Sponsored by End of the Trail For Information, Call: Bruce or Rose 616-281-3640 After 5 P.M. 616-878-9443 Ike Peters 616-791-4014 ADMISSION Camping $10.00 For Week-End Adults $2.00 ea. Motels & Cabins in Area Children under 12 yrs. $1.00 · Advance Reservations MAP ON BACK �How to find us... N r Cadillac Mario~ _:14 Mile Rd. r Q. >< w ~ ~ h M-10 , 0 4Way Stop M-10 Reed City Clair Q Big Rapids Lansing 'V � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Native American Publication Collection Subject The topic of the resource Native Americans Indians of North America Anthropology Indians of North America -- Michigan -- Periodicals Michigan Description An account of the resource Selected digital surrogates of published and unpublished materials from the Edward V. Gillis Native American publication collection dealing with different aspects of human culture and anthropology, with an emphasis on Native American people, events, organizations, and activities in Michigan. Includes newsletters, event programs, flyers, posters and other printed materials. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Gillis, Edward V. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/446">Edward V. Gillis Native American Publication Collection (RHC-14)</a> Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-02-21 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Relation A related resource Gi-gikinomaage-min Project (Kutsche Office of Local History) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-14 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1958-2000 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/446">Edward V. Gillis Native American publication collection, RHC-14</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-14_gissiwas-creek-indian-pow-wow_1991-05 Title A name given to the resource Gissiwas Creek Indian Pow Wow, May 1991 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-05 Description An account of the resource Gissiwas Creek Indian Pow Wow flyer, Evart MI, May 28-30, 1991, collected by Edward Gillis included as part of his Native American publication collection. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource End of the Trail Subject The topic of the resource Indians of North America -- Michigan -- Periodicals Indians of North America Michigan Michigan -- Grand Rapids Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9bdb2ae4c9af779b8689f5162ef5b78c.pdf 38d32ba6bf481fa582897d95be88796b PDF Text Text TIIlRD ANNUAL GISSIWAS CREEK INDIAN POW WOW Host Drum Skintone Open Drum 50.00 Ea. + Blanket Dance To Additional 1st 6 Reg. Drums Head Vet Dancer Frank Bush Master Of Ceremonies Tick Bush Arena Director Sam Bush Bl.eHing Of Ground Sat. At Sunrise 2GrundEntria Saturday & Sunday 1PMand7pm We will hold an informal-dance Friday night if we have a drum &daneen MEMORIAL WEEK-END 1993 MAY 28, 29, 30 PUBLIC WELCOME ALL TRADERS MUST PRE-REGISTER DINNER SAT. & SUN. 5PM FOR DANCERS AND TRADERS CONTINENTAL BREAKFAST SUN 8AM FREE CAMPING FOR DANCERS ALL ELEC. HOOKUPS $500 WEEKEND NO CARNNAL WAGONS NOIMPORTS NO IMITATION INDIAN JEWELRY NO ALCOHOL OR DRUGS ALL ABOVE ENFORCED SPONSORED BY f.t\JD Of THE TRAIL For Information Call: Bruce Or Rose (616) 281-3640 after 5pm (616)878-9443 Admission Adults $2.00 ea. Children tinder 12 years $1.00 Seniors $1.00 Handicapped - free Camping $15.00 for weekend Motels & cabins in area Advance reservations Map on back �How to find us... N im Cadillac Marlon I : > IQ 3: en en _14 Mlle Rd. !Q. ,c -... w M M-10· 4Way Stop M-10 D Reed City Clair D Big Rapids 1. Lansing 'V � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Native American Publication Collection Subject The topic of the resource Native Americans Indians of North America Anthropology Indians of North America -- Michigan -- Periodicals Michigan Description An account of the resource Selected digital surrogates of published and unpublished materials from the Edward V. Gillis Native American publication collection dealing with different aspects of human culture and anthropology, with an emphasis on Native American people, events, organizations, and activities in Michigan. Includes newsletters, event programs, flyers, posters and other printed materials. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Gillis, Edward V. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/446">Edward V. Gillis Native American Publication Collection (RHC-14)</a> Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-02-21 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Relation A related resource Gi-gikinomaage-min Project (Kutsche Office of Local History) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-14 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1958-2000 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/446">Edward V. Gillis Native American publication collection, RHC-14</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-14_gissiwas-creek-indian-pow-wow_1993-05 Title A name given to the resource Gissiwas Creek Indian Pow Wow, May 1993 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1993-05 Description An account of the resource Gissiwas Creek Indian Pow Wow flyer, Evart MI, May 28-30, 1993, collected by Edward Gillis included as part of his Native American publication collection. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource End of the Trail Subject The topic of the resource Indians of North America -- Michigan -- Periodicals Indians of North America Michigan Michigan -- Grand Rapids Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1e060c896987c5cf9c980d0fa622f03f.mp4 d5549e219fcf1c2c051cc1b5ccf2a655 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/912217ff0aa6f7c78d54a9c167df7914.pdf 3be4cab6c228e54ff738bd7265547f8d PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview World War II Duane Endres Length of interview (1:34:31) (00:00:08) Family Background               Duane Endres was born in Carlton Township, Michigan on February 19, 1924 (00:00:11) His father was a farmer of 40 acres, which was split 50/50 with the landowner (00:00:23) There were 8 people in the family. Any cash revenue came from the cream and cows they had, which allowed them $.70 a week to live on. In the summer, Mr. Endres father worked a thrash machine for a $1 a day. It was very lucrative for the family (00:02:04) Duane completed the 8th grade. His parents could not afford to send him to high school. He wanted to get more education and it upsets him today when kids do not take advantage of the opportunities offered them (00:03:11) During this time, the state required an individual to complete 8 grades. If one lived in a district with a high school they could attend for free; however, if one lived outside of the district they had to pay tuition, supplies, and transportation fees (00:03:15) The family had a car, but they could not afford the gas. Gas was $.10 a gallon at the time (00:03:48) His sister attended school because his parents wanted her to have an education to support herself. They figured that Duane and his brothers could use their hands for work (00:04:03) The performed numerous chores on the farm. Duane goes into detail about specific aspects of the farm (00:04:41) Duane stayed on the farm after he completed school until he received an offer to work at Michigan State University in an experimental sheep and cow barn (00:08:05) He worked at MSU for 2 years and then he joined the Navy (00:08:40) He was at a cousin's house near Lowell, Michigan, when he heard the news of Pearl Harbor on the radio (00:09:10) He received a draft notice 2 or 3 months prior, but was granted a deferment due to his work at MSU. There is a point here where Duane discusses in detail maple syrup and his revenues (00:12:10) His 3 brothers were in the Army and served overseas (00:12:50) Duane was in the Navy and never went overseas, but he did spent 18 hours on a ship at one point (00:13:01) (00:13:12) Basic Training  At Great Lake Training Center, Duane and 12-14 other men were lined up asked if anyone wanted to volunteer for Marines. No one volunteered and �      the last two men in line were chosen for the Marines. Duane told the command he always wanted to be in the Navy when asked (00:14:25) His training was not organized, because the officer in charge of his unit had to leave. They participated in training when someone was available to train them (00:15:42) Finally, eight companies of men were given a review of drill instructions for the final review. They did not have the necessary training and did not pass the final review; however, they did advance beyond basic training (00:17:25) Duane related that the Army concentrated on cleaning rifles; whereas, the Navy focused on uniforms (00:18:06) He learned how to row and they had some training with anti-aircraft guns (00:18:33) Duane enjoyed learning how to use the machine gun and wanted to use the double barrel anti-aircraft guns. The National Guard was chosen for this task and Duane was given guard duty. He was upset, but soon realized no one got to train on the guns (00:20:45) After basic training Duane spent 3-4 days at Great Lakes before he received orders to Oklahoma. He could not believe it and thought maybe there was some secret mission going on there (00:21:42) (00:22:00) Active Duty Norman, Oklahoma           Once in Oklahoma, Duane realized it was a large airfield and he was assigned to the mess hall (00:22:20) He learned to cooperate with others and did was he told (00:22:34) Within a few days, he got an easy job slicing bread. He has told everyone who went into military service to ‘act like you enjoy the job even you do not. It will pay off’ (00:22:55) His duties included slicing bread and taking care of the vegetable locker. He was then transferred to a new mess hall, where he became the Master of Arms. This job entailed supervising the cooks and maintaining order in the food line. He got the job because he had a good attitude (00:26:00) The Germans surrendered before he left Oklahoma. He jokingly says that the Germans and Japanese surrendered because they knew he joined the service (00:28:00) He left Oklahoma, where the majority of his service time was spent, in 1946 (00:28:04) He became a storekeeper and kept inventory (00:28:45) Tell a story about gate guards helping themselves to food (00:29:16) There was a North and South base in Oklahoma. The South base was where secret operations took place, which was primarily focused on radar technology. The North base was where pilots were trained (00:31:30) A storm hit the base and over 100 planes were lost. There were no weather forecasts on the radio, but an officer saw the storm coming, Duane was ordered to the airfield to help tie everything down (00:32:25) �       He talks about the different planes damaged during the storm. The war was over so the loss was not a big deal (00:34:02) The size of the base was being reduced and Duane was in one of the last men to leave. Everyone received a souvenir cigarette lighter, but Duane did not smoke (00:35:44) Duane and his friend were not heavy drinkers, so they visited places in Oklahoma and took a lot of pictures (00:37:00) He kept in touch with this friend until 2 years ago. Duane believes he either passed away or moved into a nursing home (00:37:57) Speaks about sailors who joined the service under assumed names. They were zoot suitors (00:38:40) Shared barracks in California with a man who was difficult to get along with (00:40:00) While in Oklahoma, there was a record set for the number of men who drowned in the Navy. He speaks about a lake where 5 men drowned to lack of attention by lifeguards (00:41:05) (00:43:00) Active Duty California             Duane was ordered to California after his time in Oklahoma. He traveled on a troop car. It was a rugged ride and they did not eat very often. The men complained a lot, but the food they were given was good. Also, they stayed at Harvey Houses along the way (00:43:05) Duane had a mild mannered friend in California, who was picked on by his barracks mates. This led to an altercation for Duane (00:48:37) He was at Livermore Airfield, which was an atomic base (00:51:09) Firemen on base responded to fires in the nearby town (00:51:56) Duane was assigned to refrigeration and worked in a locker plant (00:53:35) One person stayed on overnight duty to take care of any emergencies. He also kept water coolers serviced. This was his only job (00:54:15) There was not much use for the skills he learned in California after his service (00:55:07) He visited Oakland, California, often and was amazed by the hills and trolleys. He said he never saw so many pancake houses as he did in San Francisco. He tried to take in as many sites as he could (00:56:02) He took buses to Oakland and then hitchhiked to other places. Relates a story about hitchhiking in Oklahoma during a blizzard. Hitchhiking was relatively safe, but he suggests he was naïve about it, too (00:57:57) Cigarettes were a common item to be traded for a ride. Most people smoked and it was un-American to not smoke (01:01:00) At one point in California, the farmer’s fields caught on fire and spread into the hills. The sailors tried to help put it out. Duane tells a story about a captain’s van being stuck in the hills and helicopters were used to locate it (01:02:10) The smoke from the fire carried poison oak or ivy, which affected Duane badly. His face was raw and fluids had to be drained. He had to go to the sick bay regularly for cleanings (01:04:12) �(01:05:00) Post Service Experiences               He decided to hitchhike home from California, because his family was poor and it was an opportunity to make some cash (01:06:31) He stayed in motels, which were a $1 a night and he got discounts, too (01:07:25) He got a ride from a Japanese man, who had been in an internment camp. This was one of the few men he remembered on his trip home (01:08:13) Duane relates a time when he volunteered to clean the mess hall with DDT. He received 2 days of leave to visit his brother in Texas. They sprayed utensils, food containers, and numerous other things in the hall. It killed all the pests (01:08:49) It took Duane 5 days to get home to Michigan from California. Hitchhiking was much better than the troop train; however, he did get stuck in the desert near Cheyenne, Wyoming for a night (01:10:37) He returns to some stories about basic training (01:12:00) Damaged Disc/ Would not play Duane liked the service and says it was the only vacation he has ever had. He went from doing hard work to soft living (01:20:47) He decided not to stay in the service, because he thought the U.S. was going to war with Russia (01:21:20) He thought about volunteering with atomic testing for 3 months. He is glad he did not (01:22:51) Overall, Duane believes the service made him more independent. He was strongly affected by the changes immediately after the war (01:24:01) He speaks about the Army Air Corps and the glamour boys (01:26:38) He relates a story from his brother’s experience at the Battle of Bulge (01:29:16) Gives some opinions about generals in WWII (01:31:00) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Endres, Duane (Interview outline and video), 2011 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Endres, Duane Description An account of the resource Duane Endres was born on a farm in Michigan in 1924. He was drafted into the Navy 1945. Prior to this he received a deferment due to his work at Michigan State University. He remained on the home front during his service and was stationed in Norman, Oklahoma, and Livermore, California. He was a seaman 2nd class, worked in the mess hall in Oklahoma, and was assigned to refrigeration in California. He was discharged from the Navy in 1946. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings United States. Navy World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-04-26 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context EndresD1105V Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b153b66b24f0fb83baabd5e578334d99.mp4 094a2bc13d3f81c5959a30af6f2bc294 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/37208b8ee03a19642d87553ef2adbc4b.pdf c4e8adaa18ca3d69b5f7b3688aeb0563 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Albert Engel (Part 1&2) (2:05:53) Background Information (00:20)   Born in Lake City, Michigan, in 1924. (00:29) He grew up in Michigan and in Washington D.C. the relocation was due to his father’s work as a congressman. (1:50) Summary of his Father (2:18)          His father worked as a farmer when he was a boy. (2:19) At the age of 14 his father ran away from home and began working in a lumber yard. (6:25) His father was 1 credit short of graduating from Northwestern University in Illinois. (8:29) His father also served in the Army. He lied about his age in order to go to officer training at Fort Sheridan. (9:30) His father ran a Christmas tree business. (10:45) Due to his German name, his father’s tree business struggled. (11:25) His father became a lawyer and latter Prosecuting Attorney. (13:56) He had to give up his position as a Prosecuting Attorney during World War I. (15:09) His father practiced law in Lake City at the time of Albert’s birth. (18:29) Background Information (cont.) (19:25)               Albert has 1 older sister. (19:30) Albert had one brother who died at birth. (25:37) In 1933, his father ran for congress. He was elected and served 8 terms until he retired. (26:06) He graduated from Western High School in Georgetown, D.C. (27:44) His father’s work is what brought Albert to Washington (29:11) Albert heard of Pearl Harbor while upstairs in his room doing homework. At the time he was studying at the University of Maryland. Albert attended the University of Maryland due to it being less expensive than his out of state favorite, the University of Michigan. (30:30) Because his father was in congress, Albert saw a copy of The Day of Infamy speech before Roosevelt gave it. (33:06) Albert had a seat in the house gallery when Roosevelt gave The Day of Infamy speech. (34:53) He did not have an immediate desire to enlist in the military after Pearl Harbor. (35:50) At the time of Albert’s enlistment he had 2 years of college and 3 years of military training while in high school through the ROTC. (38:20) His junior year of college, Albert transferred to the University of Michigan. He was at the institution for 1 year before going into service. (39:24) Albert was in the ROTC. (43:04) He did poorly at the University of Michigan. Part of the reason was due to apathy. So many men were being drafted he believed it hopeless to study because e too would be drafted. (45:06) Albert enlisted in the U.S. Army in Washington D.C. in 1943 at the age of 18. (46:40) �Basic Training (47:20)      Albert received orders to report in downtown Washington where he and others would be transported to Fort Lee, Virginia. (47:24) For infantry training Albert was sent to Camp Wheeler. (50:01) In training he was able to learn quickly. (50:49) His clothes and other military supplies were issued at Fort Lee. (51:18) After getting back to the house, his father told Albert that he already knew where he was going to serve. He was to be transferred. This angered Albert. He believed he was being transferred for political purposes. (54:57) Training at Fort Aberdeen                 Albert was transferred to Fort Aberdeen, Maryland. Here he began the same basic training he had at Camp Wheeler. (57:02) Albert did not tell the men he was training with that he was a congressman’s son. However the men alongside him knew regardless. (58:34) Albert applied for OCS (Officer Candidates School). (1:00:02) At one occasion when Albert met his commanding officer, he could tell the man was frightened by the power his father had. (1:30:00) Albert thought he was too young to do well in OCS. He also felt depressed due to the fact that he was being used due to the position of his father. (1:02:37) Albert was then transferred to Ordnance Company. (1:03:28) During this time in his training, Albert met many other men who were sons of politician. Many had the same bleak outlook of the political influence on their lives as Albert did. (1:06:31) Many of the drills that Albert did in basic training were ones that he was familiar with from ROTC in high School. (1:07:36) Albert did not do well in OCS. His officers who trained him however, were very good. (1:12:58) He scored as one of the lowest in his class in OCS. He was, however, given one of the highest scores of a single man. (1:14:27) After Albert graduated from OCS, he had the choice of where he wanted to go. Albert volunteered for bomb disposal. (1:16:09) Bomb disposal was a job Albert liked. In 1944 he was sent to bomb disposal school. (1:16:40) Albert trained both at Army and Navy bases for bomb disposal. (1:17:17) During training, Albert worked on defusing both American as well as German bombs. (1:18:18) Half way through his education, Albert was assigned commanding officer of the 80th Bomb Disposal Squad. (1:19:30) After training, his unit was sent to Fort Dix, New Jersey to be sent to Europe in April 1944. (1:19:30) Voyage to Europe (1:20:20)    He sailed in a convoy. (1:20:30) The ship carried 24 officers and 240 men. (1:22:09) Albert was the youngest person on the ship. He was made sanitation officer while on the voyage to Europe. (1:22:58) �      The commander of the convoy was on Albert’s ship. Because of this, the ship sailed in the center of the convoy. (1:24:48) The ship hit storms fairly quickly. Many men became sea sick. (1:25:04) The ship traveled on a northern course. While approaching the Arctic Circle, the convoy was attacked by a submarine. (1:26:37) One of the 3 destroyer escorts of the convoy was hit by the submarine and disabled. (1:27:20) In response to the submarine, the convoy than turned south toward the Canary Islands. (1:28:11) The ship than turned north and eventually landed in Wales. (1:29:19) Service in England (1:29:55)                Albert did not believe the men he commanded in his squad were very bright. (1:30:00) The Squad than moved to Headcorn, England. Once arriving, the men waited there for their supplies. (1:31:00) When first arriving in Europe, Albert was still very naive. (1:32:56) While waiting for his equipment in Headcorn, Albert received orders that he was transferred to the Headquarters of 19th Tactical Air Command. (1:34:35) This position meant that he would be following the 19th Air men into the continent. (1:35:36) Albert was furious to hear of his transfer. He had been excited to lead the men he had trained on bomb defusing. (1:36:40) While in England, Albert served as ammunition and Bomb Disposal officer. This, Albert says, is a title that meant nothing. Because of his lack of responsibility, he spent much of his time visiting sights. (1:38:19) On June 26th 1944 Albert was given the chance to travel across the English Channel. He was out ranked, however, and did not get a spot on the boat to go to France. (1:40:29) During the invasion on June 6th 1944, Albert served as a pencil pusher. He did not like this. (1:41:58) While in England Albert did visit London several times. (1:42:27) There was little to do at night. Albert liked to watch the English Bombers fly over head. (1:44:27) The first time he saw a buzz bomber, it was frightening and confusing. He had never seen anything like it before. (1:45:45) Albert boarded a ship in Southampton and then traveled to Utah Beach on August 1st 1944. Here he stayed for several days after arriving. The voyage took 3 day. (1:47:00) He crossed the channel on a coal ship. The ship was very dirty. (1:48:00) The ships landed on portable docks set up on the beachheads. (1:49:04) Service in Europe (1:50:35)     When arriving on Utah Beach there were tents set and the area was secured. (1:51:04) The men than headed south and west to a headquarters unit based at St. James, in the southwest corner of Normandy . At this time they received word that they would be giving air cover and support to Patton’s 3rd Army. (1:52:03) While in England, Albert was assigned to an experimental program on the Thames estuary that was to develop a new rocket. (1:53:40) The rockets would carried by aircraft and used to destroy buzz bombs. (1:57:14) �   While working on this special project, Albert lived in a farmhouse. He did very little and mostly was there just to observe. (1:59:19) Due to the bit of law education that Albert had while in college, he was appointed to be the defense counsel for a man who was to be court martialed while moving inland in France. (2:01:06) One man he was defending was court martialed for conduct of drunken buffoonery while in a town. (2:03:05) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Engel, Albert (Interview outline and video, 1 of 2), 2012 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Engel, Albert Description An account of the resource Albert Engel, son of U.S. congressman Albert J. Engel, served in the U.S. Army from February 1943 to April 1946 in the European Theater during World War II. During basic training, Albert applied for OCS school, but due to his young age did poorly, but did receive his commission. Before being sent to England, Albert was assigned as commander of the 80th Bomb Disposal Squad. However, shortly after arriving in France Albert was transferred to the HQ for the 19th tactical air command. Here he was assigned to represent defendants in court martial cases. Albert than applied to be the commander of the 86th Bomb Disposal Squad. He stayed commander of this squad until his discharge in 1946. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Air Corps Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-02-14 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context EngelA1345V1 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e9b0dbcbb8be561e3723c7e8eb199cb9.mp4 d77ccdf46941f3b33243078245862eb4 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b890f473e993d3ce4373ce76768d5436.pdf c504d380a655bc4e5b9f851d2e7617d8 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Albert Engel (Part 3&4) (2:00:53) *Note- time code restarts Service in Court Martial Cases (00:32)         One of the men he defended, Robert Wagner Jr. was also a politician’s son. (2:18) The officers in the Court Martial were equally as confused on the proceedings of the court as any other soldier. (3:10) His first case tried was for drunken buffoonery and swearing at an officer. (3:52) Albert served in 3 Court Martial cases. (6:09) The first man he represented got off with what Albert thought was too light a punishment. (6:50) At this time (summer of 1944) Albert worked in a traveling office. (7:32) The second man he represented was accused of driving a car unlawfully and crashing it. The client said, however, that he was not driving that it was actually a lieutenant that Albert worked in the office with. (8:20) He represented 2 AWOL cases. These cases were cut and dried, the defendant was almost always found guilty. (11:15) Service in France (12:00)        Albert stayed in a Countess’s castle in France while traveling across the country. The castle had been used by the German officers while under Nazi occupation. (13:04) The countess ran a convent for young unmarried mothers. She asked Albert for help defusing bombs and ammunition that had landed in the area of the convent. (14:55) The women who stayed at the convent were terrified of the ammunition that was on the premises. (16:48) The men were served bread and wine, and the men shared their K rations as a celebration for cleaning up the convent. (17:41) His commanding officer had already seen action in Africa before serving in France. (21:21) At this time (summer/fall of 1944) officers were in short supply due to misconduct of some in the field. (22:27) As a result of the officer shortage, Albert applied to be an officer of a bomb squad. He was assigned to the 80th Bomb Squad. (23:12) Service in the 80th Bomb Squad     The Bomb Squad was stationed at Laval, France The 80th Bomb Squad was much better than his first, the 86th Bomb Disposal Squad. (26:20) Albert stayed with the 80th Bomb Disposal Squad until the end of the war in June of 1945. (26:48) His bomb squad followed the Tactical Air Team were his task was to keep all air fields operational at all times. To do this the men required many tools including stethoscopes and a multitude of wrenches. (27:00) �      As the Squad traveled across the eastern side of France, there were a lot of bombs discovered. (28:15) The bombs and munitions that the men defused were U.S., French, and German. (29:24) While working at air fields in France and Belgium, the Squad dealt with munitions that did not deteriorate due to age. (30:30) U.S. bombs were the most likely to be found by the squad due to Allied carpet bombing. (32:48) Most bombs that were too close to homes or cities, had to be taken to a bomb site before they could be detonated. (34:14) When bombs were detonated they were buried in a 15 foot hole, filled with explosives. (35:15) Service in Belgium (36:55)                       On December 19th 1944, Albert left for Zwartburg Belgium where he spent the next 6 months. There was already 1 bomb disposal crew there. (37:15) At this time (winter of 1944) the men did mostly detonation work. There was so much ammunition that the men had to prioritize what to detonate. (38:52) This job was dangerous. There were casualties on occasion. (39:45) The Bomb Squad traveled north through France and Luxembourg toward Belgium on December 18th. The squadron did encounter Germans in the Ardennes Forest. (41:20) There was a British Air Base and an American Airstrip (Y-32) in Zwartburg Belgium. (43:53) The Belgium people treated the soldiers very well. (46:24) The soldiers and the Belgium people in the town the squadron was in decorated a Christmas tree in December of 1944 using tinsel bombers had dropped in order to confuse anti-aircraft radar. (49:00) The soldiers and the townspeople would commonly exchange goods. (49:45) Before the Battle of the Bulge, the amount of munitions the bomb squad had was so great that Albert was given clearance to drop the bombs into the North Sea. This was later halted by HQ. (51:41) In the winter of 1944 Luftwaffe attacked almost every night. (53:35) Early in the morning on December 31st 1944 the German air forces launched their final offensive. 36 of 50 German aircraft were shot down. (56:03) No jet fighters were used in the final aerial assault. (56:55) The Luftwaffe spent much of their time shooting up the runway. (57:12) There were not a lot of bombs dropped in this final offensive. (59:28) The morning following the offensive there were many German plane wrecks on the ground near the airfield. (1:00:45) Albert’s squad was also attacked on December 24th 1944 by German aircraft. (1:02:40) The Belgian civilians assisted in cleaning up some of the wreckage that resulted from battles. (1:03:30) On December 31st 1944, Albert received a call about a German aircraft that was shot down on the outskirts of town. When he arrived there, body parts from the pilots could be found scattered about the sight. (1:04:15) The Soldiers were treated very kindly by the Belgium civilians (1:05:25) In April of 1945 while in the Limburg province, Albert met a Belgium man (Mr. Groenen) who he became close with. He was welcomed into this man’s home and even ate with him. (1:07:00) The man had several younger sisters who were all able to speak English. (1:10:05)\ The man and his family had housed German officers while they occupied Belgium. (1:10:35) �    The family that Albert was close with was told that they were still under investigation due to their housing of German officers. (1:13:00) The family was very wealthy. The women’s husband had many hunting trophies and furniture carved from bone. (1:17:40) Several years after the war while Albert was in law school, he visited the family he had grown close to. (1:18:44) While visiting, Albert went with one of his friends, Bob. This man was not trusted by the family because they didn’t know him. (1:21:40) Service after German Surrender (1:22:55) (June 1945)                    Albert and his squad traveled to Nuremburg German in 1945 after the surrender. (1:22:45) While still in Belgium, Albert and his squad traveled to some of the battlefields to see what they looked like. (1:23:20) After the German surrender in 1945, bomb squads were combined. This meant Albert would command several squads simultaneously. (1:24:50) He was first sent to an old palace in Nuremburg Germany then to an airfield at Montdidier where he stayed from June-October 1945. (1:25:15) Albert in and his men had little to do in Germany in 1945. The bomb disposal squads were quickly sent back to France to carry out more munitions work. (1:25:52) On June 21st 1945 while in Nuremburg Germany, Albert was made a captain. He was much younger than other captains and because of this he was in Europe for almost a year after the surrender before being sent home. (1:27:56) While in Nuremburg Germany Albert saw an opera. The opera house was bombed out so bad it looked like it was going to fall over. (1:28:32) Albert’s father visited him while he was in France in mid to late 1945. His father was to meet with Eisenhower. (1:30:12) Albert was met at the Frankfort Airport by General Begley who helped Albert find his father. (1:32:19) For 8 days Albert traveled with General Begley before meeting his father at another airport. (1:33:12) For the next 19 days after his father’s landing, Albert traveled with his father and meet Eisenhower in Frankfort, Germany, in September of 1945. (1:34:51) Albert than landed in Tempelhof Airport, Berlin. Here he visited Hitler’s Bunker (1:35:27) His father was happy to see him. He talked often about the Christmas tree farm that Albert was intended to run after his military service. (1:37:40) Albert and his father than ventured to Paris. (1:38:56) His father came to Paris with other congressmen. There were other soldiers who were ordered to come and meet their fathers. (1:41:26) Albert and his father than ventured to London. (1:42:58) His father spent much of his time in London in meetings. (1:44:45) Three of the soldiers Albert was with on the trip were related to congress men and were treated with the same political favoritism as Albert. (1:45:18) A high ranking officer in the 9th Air Force came to see Albert. He was given the choice to stay in the military as a commander in a bomb squad and a position as a commander. He did not like this because he expected political influence. Albert turned the offer down. (1:47:06) �End of Service (1946)(1:48:00)       Albert was sent to a camp near Antwerp, Belgium before being sent home. (1:49:48) He was very anxious to go home. (1:51:07) Albert ventured home aboard a troop ship. He arrived in at New Jersey. (1:51:40) He traveled by train back to Washington D.C. (1:52:30) Albert was so anxious to get out of his uniform after return home, one of the first things he did was go down town and purchase a Zoot suit. (1:52:47) He was discharged in New York in 1946. (1:55:26) Thoughts on Service (1:57:30)  As much as he hated politics influencing his life he was eventually able to get out of it and commanded his own bomb squad which he liked. (1:58:29) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Engel, Albert (Interview outline and video, 2 of 2), 2012 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Engel, Albert Description An account of the resource Albert Engel, son of U.S. congressman Albert J. Engel, served in the U.S. Army from February 1943 to April 1946 in the European Theater during World War II. During basic training, Albert applied for OCS school, but due to his young age did poorly, but did receive his commission. Before being sent to England, Albert was assigned as commander of the 80th Bomb Disposal Squad. However, shortly after arriving in France Albert was transferred to the HQ for the 19th tactical air command. Here he was assigned to represent defendants in court martial cases. Albert than applied to be the commander of the 86th Bomb Disposal Squad. He stayed commander of this squad until his discharge in 1946. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Air Corps Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-02-14 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context EngelA1345V2 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/0e28d4aff3586abd9b1fbc9e1da2f0f1.pdf 4af474baea4c664bf04cfbfb71c38fdc PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Interviewee: Jeanne Englehart Interviewers: Tylenda, Evan, Connor Johnson, Jason, Send, and Philip Joslyn Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 2/22/2012 Biography and Description Jeanne was raised in Atlanta, Michigan. She is a successful business women in the West Michigan area. She discusses how she became the successful woman that she is today. Transcript TYLENDA: We are hoping you will open up and you can talk about what you want. ENGLEHART: You must have some type of prepared questions? GROUP: Oh yeah. ENGLEHART: Just curious, how did you get my name?” GROUP: We knew we wanted to interview a successful woman in business… in Grand Rapids and we came across your name. Basically because of US Diversity we learned how women historically and today are treated differently in business and what not. So we are coming to you to get your view point on that because I’m sure you’ve dealt with that. ENGLEHART: So the premise to really how women how women are treated differently? TYLENDA: Yeah and see maybe any obstacles you have overcome and maybe different viewpoints, if men have treated you differently because you are a women and what not. We will also want some background information and we can go from there. ENGLEHART: It’s probably easier if you just started asking me questions other than ….. GROUP: Give us a detail background not real detail but outline of how and where you grew up. Head into how and when you knew you wanted to start your own business and just kind of transition us into that, college maybe. ENGLEHART: Well actually I grew up in Atlanta, Michigan, which is up in northern Lower Michigan in a small town that graduated 52 kids. That shows you how big it was. A lot of them are Engleharts, so just a large family and very very poor family……. It was not… we had 5 kids and a father who was disabled so it wasn’t a family that was education was important and a family that had the means to provide education. At some point I think I just decided it was… I needed to get out of there. So……I …..How do I Page 1 �start? There’s a really good, should of brought it for you, There’s a really good article that was in the Grand Rapids press about my life. That will give you a wealth of detail that I will be repeating. That will probably be really helpful and would put a lot of things into context for you, but … I kind of ended up in Grand Rapids in 1980 -81. And I came to work at, there used to be a store called computer land over on 28th street and they sold computers, they sold apple they sold big old luggable Compacts. They decided they wanted to offer classes for the customers that bought computers and I happened to be standing in line with the general manager of the store; I didn’t know him at the time. It was an IBM meeting and told me they were looking for someone. At the time I was working up at Mt Pleasant at CMU and then for a company called MoBark Industries. I thought oh gee why not that would be kind of fun to try that. So we moved to Grand Rapids… Sorry I have really bad allergies at this time of the year; I take Zertec and get cotton mouth so I apologize if my I take sips of water. There is also a Cat here at the school and I am allergic to cats, so it’s a double whammy. GROUP: We saw that. ENGLEHART: Oh yeah, it’s a big ole ally cat that the kids adopted. Of course it knows I don’t like it so it comes and finds me… Anyway, I had taken a job at CMU and was working there and then took a different job working for this company called MoBark industries. They were offering me different positions as I learned more about computers. JOHNSON: So that’s how you got to learn about computers? ENGLEHART: Well it was a lot of word processing back then, so I was heading up to the word processing area. TYLENDA: That’s back when you had the punch cards? ENGLEHART: Yeah, oh yeah and the tapes that ran through it. Yeah long time ago. So I took the job and once I was at Computer Land and I was working there for a year or two I thought how it was interesting that people would think, since you were part of a retail store that we were trying to sell them something instead of just educate them. So I noticed this funny little niche for someone who doesn’t sell anything but really knows how to use computers for business applications. So it’s just like this little hybrid piece that I kept thinking I know how to use a computer to increase people’s business efficiencies but they sometimes didn’t believe it because you’re working at a retail store. So I thought, well, there might be a business here. So I went and decided that I would try and start my own business. So I borrowed 5000 on my credit card and started a business. I didn’t go to the bank because I knew I didn’t have anything that anybody would loan against. So I can’t say I was ever discriminated against when it came to banking because I don’t think they would of lent the money to a man either. It wasn’t a female issue at that point. You don’t have to collateral you don’t get the loan. So that’s the way it usually it works and that was 1985. TYLENDA: Did you maybe have anybody telling you it might not of been a good idea or persuading you to do something else in regards to opening the business? ENGLEHART: Well it was my decision, at the time I was still doing work for Computer Land and I was doing work for Grand Rapids Junior college. So I had 2 different income streams and I went to the president at the community college and said I really wanted to do this because again people wouldn’t come to the college to teach them business because they thought you were going to teach them academics. So there was this competing interest. Are you retail or academic? Well I was neither. I’m in Page 2 �the middle. And so I went to him and said I want to do this, I want a sabbatical. I wanted a fallback position if it didn’t work. So he gave me a year to come back. So in part people say you must have been a big risk taker. I guess I didn’t see it as a risk. It was in hindsight. I almost had something I could go back to if it didn’t work. And so I found through Grand Valley, they used to have a computer lab for over flow of obstruction that was down on Division and Fountain. That was a building down on the corner. I don’t think they even own it anymore. They had a computer lab down there and so I worked out an agreement with them that I could use that computer lab for my classes. I started my business and I had a little office right there next to the Grand Valley space and I shared the Grand Valley admin who was part of the lab there. They were gracious enough to let me have a year to pay the rent. In exchange for me helping them maintain their computer lab and helping them with some of the stuff they needed. So it allowed me to have some time to not have to pay rent…It was kind of a unique situation. TYLENDA: Was there a time when you thought your business would not be successful and when did you truly start seeing it grow? ENGLEHART: Well I truly think there are always points when you think it’s not going to work and what was I thinking. I probably, yeah at least one time when I took a project on and then after I got into it I realized the way I had quoted it was wrong. I was losing my shirt on it. But you have to do it. You have to do what you say you’re going to do. It’s a big small town and word gets out very quick and so people were coming to me because of my reputation and my name so it was really important. I mean the company was Englehart training so it wasn’t too hard to figure out who owned it. So that was just a nice way for me to be able to, had to be able to do what I said I was going to do. Grand Valley was nice enough to help me with that. So it was a nice Segway for me, were I really started seeing that it was really going to take off. I always thought it was going to be successful but thought it had limited potential. Because once people are trained then what do they need? I wasn’t seeing how many upgrades, how many upgrades in the software industry. This was before Microsoft, this was back when teaching people Vizocal and WordStar was the word processor. This was before office. So I was doing a lot of training on these products and every time they had an upgrade then people had to be trained. So there were a lot of companies that came to me to do their training for employees. So this wasn’t onesy twosy people coming in. I did have public classes that were published but the majority of my business was corporate work so. JOHNSON: How did you stay up on your training with the changes? ENGLEHART: I would go to the different software companies. I did spend a lot of time in Utah with WordPerfect doing stuff and with Novell spent a lot of time with Microsoft when it became more popular. We became Microsoft Certified. That was the only way to get training was to spend time with the manufacturer. So that was always part of what I had to do. If I didn’t have the expertise I found people who did have it and contract with them. Especially in the areas of networking and open systems architecture, those were beyond my capabilities so I found people I could hire on a contract basis and put together a plan where we could split the profits. He was happy I was happy. TYLENDA: So how long did that go for? How long were you…? ENGLEHART: Oh gosh, well I was in the grand valley building for only a year. The business I sold the business 13 years later. And by then I had owned and built my own building. I had 52 employees and it was part of a franchise and system that I helped start. IT kind of grew really fast. There were a couple interim offices in Detroit. If you go to the lake shore and you go past Fruitridge and 3 mile there’s a Page 3 �building with a pyramid…it’s all glass to the top, that’s the building I built. So I sold the building and the business and then the tech market tanked. ENGLEHART: That was db luck, totally db luck *Continues to laugh* so it grew I think because it just, people again trusted that you can’t be all things to all people but you find people who can. So I was really big on finding the right people and again bring that level of expertise in. Even though it might have been a cost that I couldn’t afford like with those being Novell and Microsoft certification for networks. That’s a totally different animal then teaching people word processing. I had an arrangement with the experts that we split the profits. People would come in for that name because they had all the certifications. It was a really good way to build the business. Those are the cash cows, 5 days and $3000 classes. Those are the systems that engineers need constant training….. And so I figured it was just time to sell. TYLENDA: So is part of that still around today? ENGLEHART: The company I sold to well at the time it was known as Productivity Point International. Which is a, it’s a… TYLENDA: Subserr... ENGLEHART: No. Well it’s actually started by, a group called Knowledge Universe, but anyway. They bought. There were a hundred and some franchises by the time… TYLENDA: Wow. ENGLEHART: I sold and there was 8 individuals who started that franchise. So I was one of the people that started it. So when we sold, it was Chicago, San Francisco, New York, Austin Texas, Me, little old Grand Rapids, and who were the other ones? I can’t remember. But, so those are the ones they bought and then they didn’t do a very good job managing them. TYLENDA: Yeah. ENGLEHART: So, then again the market, the tech market just tanked. So, it’s one of those things, it was the right time for me. I was ready to do something else. I think I’m a serial entrepreneur. ENGLEHART: I have to be doing something different. TYLENDA: So, what is it that made you want to sell the businesses? Then what did you move on to? ENGLEHART: Well what made me want to sell it was the right price. I mean… It’s pretty... the greatest thing. ENGLEHART: It’s pretty basic when someone says, “Here’s a check.” And so it was money. It was also the fact that I was kind of bored with it. I was just kind of tired of doing it. My kids were grown and I thought well maybe it’s time to do that. And, with any business that grows that fast, you’re highly leveraged. I mean you have a lot of debt. You can’t grow a business that fast without having a lot of debt. So some of it is the attraction of not only getting a check, your debts getting paid off. So, how tuff is that? I just thought, well I’ll just go play with my grandkids for a while. I had no intention of doing anything. I left and it was June ’97, I think June ’97, and I, people know, and , when you’re available. Page 4 �And, Congressman Ehlers called me and asked me if I would consider working as his District Director doing some work for him. And I said, I love you Vern, but I hate politics. Why would I do that? And what he really wanted was me to do relations person. Someone who knew the people and the community and had credibility that could represent him in meetings and could really be his eyes and ears on the ground and help him with that outreach that all congressmen have to have because he was in Washington. ENGLEHART:’s Phone Rings ENGLEHART: Sorry, I should turn my phone off. Group Laughter ENGLEHART: So I just said... Told him I would do it and I did it for… I loved it. It was actually a great job. Because I reported to, the chief of staff in Washington, but I was worked here in the federal building. And there was staff here in the federal building that did things like immigration and social security and lots of casework, but my job was really out in the community. So, I didn’t have casework in the same way. It was a great job; I loved it. And then I was there five and a have years. And , someone asked me to apply for the CEO of the chamber of Commerce position. And I thought, hmmm. Do I really want to work that hard or not? And it was the national search and I thought what the heck? So threw my hat in the ring because I just loved what the chamber did. And just, ? They got it down to 30 people, and then they had 10, and then they had 6. And I said I think better tell Vern because somehow, somehow somebody’s going to tell him. Even though they had kept it very quite. So and when they selected me for the position. So, I did that. I took that job in January of 2005. TYLENDA: Okay. ENGLEHART: And stayed seven and a half years. I retired this past April. A year ago April from the chamber. And I was retired for four months and they called and asked me if I would help with the school. TYLENDA: Sounds like you’re trying to get out. ENGLEHART: I am. TYLENDA: And they’re just trying, trying to come back to you. ENGLEHART: I’m done. I’m done. No, they bought this building. Educational everything, great teachers and principle, etc. They uh, but they purchased a building. They had a half million dollar building that all of the sudden they had to pay for. It was a different skill set they needed someone with some operations skills and someone that could help them really put all of the business practices in place so that they could be sustainable. So I gave them a six-month contract to do that. I’m in month seven and I am done. Next week is my last week. ENGLEHART: So, yeah. No, I did what they needed. So... Helped them launch a capital campaign so they can start getting some money. They, they want to build an early childhood center. So… TYLENDA: Okay. Page 5 �ENGLEHART: So. Just. Than I am officially retired. ENGLEHART: Truly. JOHNSON: So, I don’t mean to like back track, but during all of this, when, when did you have your children? And how was that? How was parenting and like owning a business? ENGLEHART: Not easy. JOHNSON: How did that work? ENGLEHART: Well I had my children, let’s see. They’re now, I’m trying to think. They were not... I’m trying to think if they... When I lived in Mt. Pleasant, they were with me, I was divorced at the time. And they were with me in Mt. Pleasant. So I didn’t have the kind of job that was real strenuous. I worked at the college and was a secretary for one of the departments. And I am one of those horrible examples of someone who does not have a college degree. Went a long way on street smarts, but probably one of my biggest regrets. But it just didn’t happen. It didn’t happen for lots of reasons. And so, I kind of… My kids were part of the equation. Then they went to live with their dad for a while. And then they came back to live with me. So they were sort of in and out of the picture. By the time I started my business the oldest one was living with me and the youngest one was living with his father. So I only had, I was only single parent to one at that time. But early on I was, had them both. So they were… It was a challenge. Very much a challenge. But… TYLENDA: So you went into the Chamber of Commerce. What did that, what was kind of your job description? What would you do for that? ENGLEHART: Well, the chamber has 3,000 business members. And so the job was really to, , have services and programs and, and keep the members happy, ? Very strong political aspect to it. We had an office in Lansing. So, I was registered lobbyist. I did a lot of lobbying, which wasn’t my favorite part of the job. I spent a lot of time meeting with the businesses to find out what they needed and how we could help them be more successful. This, the Grand Rapids chamber is one of the 25 largest chambers in the United States. It’s a very large chamber. So we had, there was a lot of programs. We had our, our diversity initiatives, which were very unique in the country. And so we did a lot of work with them. Business that had an interest in how can diversity help your bottom line. We did, started to do a lot of work with sustainability while I was there with Norm Christopher at Grand Valley, who worked with me. So we set up a whole sustainability program so that people could find out more about how they could, their triple bottom line could be affected by sustainability. So the chamber is just always moving target. The job is to meet the needs of the members. Whatever it might be. And they’ll call you when they’re upset with the city commissioner because their sewer problem, or they’ll call you when they’re mad at the governor. So, it’s just a very wide range and so we would advocate on their behalf and try to help them solve their problems. So it’s just, it was, I mean it’s a management job. I mean, that’s what you do. You’re managing people and you’re managing resources. But it’s also very much a public position. You go to a lot of events and represent the chamber. I said if I never have to go to another black tie event in my life, I would be perfectly happy. Perfectly happy. JOHNSON: So now you said you didn’t, you regret not going to college. But yet, you still made it this far. Like how… Do you think that was easy or it’s possible for anybody? Page 6 �ENGLEHART: No. No, not any more. I don’t think so. I think that was probably the time, the era. I think it’s also that as I built my reputation, it became less important to someone where I was education than it was the results they could see that were proven. So, one thing I’ve never been is, never been dishonest about it. I mean, from day, everybody that I would never apply for a job or say, without telling someone. if this is what you want, I don’t have that master’s degree you’re looking for on the piece of paper. So, don’t waste your time, if this is important. So I guess it’s one of those things, now I don’t think you could do that. I don’t think you’d even get your foot in the door. But because again I think it is such a big-small town and I had done so much and I think I could do it because I was so well known. And that’s the bottom line. I don’t think you could do that anymore because people wouldn’t even give you a chance. TYLENDA: Now do you think you had more opportunities than anybody else did back then? Do you think you kind of, or things just kind of fell in place and you almost got lucky? ENGLEHART: No, I made the opportunities. They didn’t fall in my lap. Nooo, no. I think I had a lot of opportunities, but I think it’s because I was always looking for opportunity. I was always saying, if I’m doing this right now, what’s next? What’s next? What’s next? What’s next? And so, , if you, if you can say, gee, well if, , if we’re, if we’re teaching, , Novel was the big, , for years was the big, , operating system for networks. Well, , once you saw Microsoft make a move in that market, it didn’t take a brain surgeon to figure out that you better be getting Microsoft certified because Microsoft eventually was going to knock Novel out. You, you just kind of know that. So, say well then I can see six months from now, we need to be in this niche and we need to own it. Because if we don’t own it, someone else is going to. For me, it is very, it’s probably a very competitive thing. Is that, I would look for the opportunities and say, I know if I don’t do it, someone else is going to. And how do I get there? And then I would look for the resources that could help. TYLENDA: Mhmm. ENGLEHART: So, sometimes it was using my own money, and going further in debt. And sometimes it was finding people like this company I ended up working with that did all the training. But, yea… JOHNSON: So while you were doing this, what sort of role models did you have? Who did you like look up to or want to stride for? ENGLEHART: Well, I wish I could say I had a lot of them, but I really didn’t. I think… I mean from a personal standpoint, my grandmother. But it was such a different era. I hate to say it. It was very competitive and woman weren’t always women’s best friends. I mean women were more competitive than men. I found that it was easier for me to get advice and ask a man, not to be a mentor necessarily, but ask a man to ask than it was to have a woman. Because that’s just the way it was. Because there were so few opportunities. Everybody wanted to be the queen bee, and there could only be one. And so, if you were the queen bee, they had to knock you off in order to get there. ENGLEHART: …Because there are not a lot of opportunities for women. I mean in high level. In the very highest level. There is not a lot. You look around and you see it. You look at board of directors. I'm on a board. A corporate Board. That, a paid board for a bank. But, there are very few women on those types of boards. There is not very many, Page 7 �TYLENDA: So kind of like could you give us like an example of one of those. Something like a dog eat dog situation. ENGLEHART: Well for example. Now a days they have like Infor, which is a big group for women that has 700 or 800 members. it’s all about supporting each other and supporting women. Well, they didn't have anything that was organized back then. So your support group was really those that you made friends with. AND, your friends you hoped wouldn't try to cut you. But, there was a lot of other people out there that I think would just say, well why, it’s another award. Why is she getting one more award? I don’t know if it is a jealousy factor. I don’t know. But, I felt that a lot and I think it was pretty common. Sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you don’t have the high visibility you are not successful. (laughter) So which do you do? Do you continue? At this point in my life I am low profile. I don’t apply to do anything. They just had the 50 most influential women. I've been on it every year. This year I didn't fill out the application. I said, there are other women coming along that should take place (laughter) not me. I was the past, the future is coming, and so, but I was surprised when I saw the list. There was still a n number of women that are women like myself that are way past 60 that were on that list that I thought, well, haven’t you had enough? Do you really need to have your name on one more thing? I mean I guess I'm at a different point. TYLENDA: So you're more humble ENGLEHART: I just don’t care, it’s not important to me anymore. It's really not. I think at some point I just said I need to have my own sense of worth and it can’t come from a plaque on the wall. (laugh) It has to come from spending time with my 6 grandkids. Being with my husband once and a while. The price you pay for some of the success I had is the... it’s tough on your family, it’s tough. And I remember when my oldest son was in high school and I had started my business and it wasn't too old at the time. He was in sports. I remember going to track meets in my heels to watch him race. All these mothers looking at me. I’m like, I had to run in there and watch him run then I had to go back to work. Because I didn't have the luxury to be on the PTA and to help with the school functions. I had to work. So, they paid the price. I said, it’s time for me to change that. TYLENDA: So do you think you really did miss out on some of the important times back then? Like with your kids. ENGLEHART: OH absolutely. There’s no doubt. I mean you can’t do it all. You think you can. At some point you think you can. back in the 60's we were told we could to it all. So we try to do it all. You sort of find out at some point, you can but at what price. TYLENDA: So is that why you transitioned to this job? Because you feel like it’s a lot more fulfilling? ENGLEHART: No. I am doing this for them. I gave them 6 months. I am really kind of doing it. I am getting paid but I am doing it as a favor to some of the people on the board that I knew. They called me and said would you help. I am not looking for, I wasn't looking for a job and I am not looking for one now. TYLENDA: Don’t worry we're not hiring. ENGLEHART: Well my husband is 69 and he is a retired math teacher so he is at an age too that we are kind of saying, if we are going to travel and do some things now is the time to do it if we don't do it Page 8 �now... and the grand kids are in lots of different states. SO, its time. Summer is coming. Can’t wait to be off for the summer right. JOHNSON: So, when you were working at the Chamber, what sort of atmosphere was it like. Because you said there weren’t a lot of opportunities for women. So did you deal mainly with men a lot? ENGLEHART: When I said there weren't opportunities for women I wasn't referring just to the chamber GROUP: right, right... ENGLEHART: I was referring to corporate America. There weren't a lot of women in those high, high leadership positions. So yeah, I mean. When I would go into a meeting of the "business leaders", Whatever that means , in west Michigan. It’s a bunch of white guys sitting around a table. I mean let’s face it. It is what it is. I don’t know that it is a whole lot different now. So yeah I had to deal with mostly, from a leadership standpoint mostly men. TYLENDA: So did you ever see that you were kind of discriminated against? In the sense that if you did speak up your word wasn't as valuable as a male counterparts to yours. Do you have one good example? ENGLEHART: I think from a political standpoint, , when you're sitting in meetings and there are let’s say 12 business leaders around the table and the governor is there. And you are talking about political issues; there is always a tendency, not saying with this governor, I’m just saying that there is always a tendency to look at the man for answers. Or, I won’t use the governor I think I would probably use a senator or someone from the state house. I wouldn't say the governor. You just see that there is always this tendency that when a question is asked they will turn and say, well what do you think? They will turn to men. And at some point I feel like I have to raise my hand, like a little kid and say, the chamber's opinion is... so I would have to insert myself. But I would say that it was mostly, I think it was mostly political. I can't think where it was a big issue otherwise. I just think it was, just the nature of politicians. It’s a good ole boys network. I mean, that’s what it is. I mean chambers are good ole boy networks. There aren't a lot of women that are CEO's of chambers this size. There are more now. I was the first female CEO they ever had at the chamber. I was the first one. So that tells you something, 120 years it took them to get a woman CEO and then they went back to a white man after me. (Laughter) it’s a good ole boys network. Big-time! So... ENGLEHART: And I think that you think differently and you make decisions differently as a woman. And sometimes Men, that was very difficult for them to understand why would I make this decision? I know one that comes to my mind was the decision that I had to make that had to do with (pause...UH) it was for small market reform which was an insurance issue. And I was. The majority of our members that would have benefited from our supporting this legislation. But I knew that spectr hospital was opposed This is where I probably should have remained anonymous - I knew they were very opposed. And I, the decision, finally. Somebody had to finally make the decision and I made the decision in the interest of our members. Which 80% of those 3,000 members are small businesses. . With less than 10 employees. This was important. Well, I mean, you can imagine the stuff rain down on me big time. That I didn't support, the big dog on the hill. So, to this day there’s, I mean, he would, he wanted my neck, he wanted my job. He was adamant I was going to be fired. But he didn't get me fired... But. . That’s the kind of thing I'm not sure, I’m not sure how. I don’t know how a man would have responded. I just, my sense would have been that they might have caved into the good ole boys pressure. Page 9 �TYLENDA: Especially what you see today too. ENGLEHART: That’s just my, that’s my guess. Not based on anything. Just based on my observation of how, mm, how much pressure these guys can put on people. It's relentless. And I think as a woman you kind of go (hmmm) OK. Been there done that. Had babies. Can’t put pressure on me. (laughter) TYLENDA: So a woman's intuitions... ENGLEHART: Well I think it’s having the interest in the bigger picture. Having an interest in. (trails off) This isn't about, my reputation or about whether I'm the one that’s going to get slammed for making this decision, this is really about what is best for everyone. That’s a tough, tough job to have. Because there is a lot of pressure. So yeah. JOHNSON: So now that you are like, past that you say (inaudible), who do you surround yourself with? What kind of people do you want in your life to... ENGLEHART: Hmmm well I have a group of women friend that are... we used to tap dance together many many years ago. And the tappers are probably from a women’s friend group there is still 10 of us that get together every couple of months and drink wine, eat and drink more wine. So that group I surround myself with those. I surround myself I think with family more. m I have a, my youngest son is disabled. He had a stroke at 29 and he is paralyzed on one side and he can’t speak so I spend time. He's not living with us but I spend a lot of time with those kinds of issues. My oldest grandson lives here in town. He'll be 16 (sigh) and he's driving. So, I just spend a lot of time with, the grandkids and stuff. Because that is positive energy. And I can still make an impact. I can still help them with what they're going through. I don’t know, so, it’s pretty simple these days. I don’t do anything too exciting (laughter). TYLENDA: So would you say... What are you r biggest regrets throughout your whole life? You talked about not spending enough time with your kids, or anything else. Name something you wish you would have done differently. Maybe pursued a different area... ENGLEHART: I mean I certainly regret that I didn’t finish college. That is an obvious one. But mm, I think probably, regret that I, my personality is such that I'm very mm, I'm very focused. And so there's a good aspect to that and there's a bad aspect to that. . The good thing is, is when I am focused on something it is going to get done. I am very good at compartmentalizing and getting it done. The bad news is, is that when I am that focused there are a lot of other things that are going on that I am not paying attention too. Whether that’s is personal friendship that I have lapsed because I haven’t spent enough time. It's a two way street if you want to have friends you have to reach out now and then. It can’t always be the other way. So there’s some of that I regret that I haven’t, I haven’t done a really good job of keeping up with my friends. JOHNSON: So if you were going to give advice to somebody that might be like living in a small-town or having a poor family that wants to become successful what would you tell them? ENGLEHART: Don’t do what I did. (Laughter) mm... (Thinking) I would just say don’t take no for an answer. part of what has gotten me here is, if someone said no, I just figured out another way to do it. . I'm very determined and so I’m also very stubborn. So if somebody would tell me no, it would just, I was just that much more determined to prove them wrong. , and so it’s like just because one person says no or puts up a road block doesn’t mean you can find another way to drive around it and you have to be Page 10 �creative sometimes to drive around it. But you also have to be honest, you have to be ethical, all those things that are really core values I think. If what your core values are and you stick with your core values you will be successful Its just determining I think saying how far you want to push the rock uphill. Some people don’t have the personality that, that they want to keep pushing. I mean I had a family of 5 and all my brothers and sisters still live up in northern Michigan. Not one of them ever left. One has at least gone on to college and came back. Bu they all live there and they are all happy in this little isolated world. Here I would go nuts. But, their kids. they had their kids and their kids went away to college and came back and lived there. I mean its nuts. It’s like O.K. (laughter) To me that wouldn’t be, something I would be very good at, but they're happy. So I guess it’s all in knowing what you want to do. I just knew that I wanted to be someplace else and that I wanted to be. I knew I wanted to be in a city. I didn’t want to be in a town. . And to me Grand Rapids was a huge city. It’s like WOW. And then you go to New York or Chicago and you come back to Grand Rapids and you go this really is a small town. ENGLEHART: But, their kids, they have their kids and their kids went away to college and came back and lived there. I mean its nuts. It’s like to me that would be something that I’d be very good at but their happy so I guess its knowing what are doing what you want to do. I mean I just knew I that I wanted to be someplace else and that I wanted to be, I knew I wanted to be in a city, I didn’t want to be in a town and to me Grand Rapids was a huge city : but wow then you, you go to New York or Chicago and you come back to Grand Rapids you go this really is a small town...but I think that I just knew that I wanted to do something different I did not want to be, I didn’t want to be in Atlanta, Michigan the rest of my life. I was absolutely sure of that. TYLENDA: So I mean do we have any other questions? JOHNSON: Yeah how, what’s time like? TYLENDA: We got about fifty minutes I’d say. Jason: 46...yeah. ENGLEHART: We can finish early...hahaha. TYLENDA: Yeah I mean that’s fine with us just hope our teacher doesn’t get mad at us. ENGLEHART: Oh I see, ok. GROUP: Laughter. TYLENDA: So I mean is there any, I guess if do you guys have any other questions...... Jason: Not really. TYLENDA: I mean if not is there anything else you’d kinda like to say...any last. ENGLEHART: Well I’d like to hear a little more about your project. TYLENDA: Oh ok perfect......do we have the, the consent mm. Page 11 �ENGLEHART: The consent mentions the… TYLENDA: What it, what it is JOHNSON: Its TYLENDA: The group were split up into say five groups total six, six groups total with about four in each group and what it was is we went to go look out someone in society who is kinda viewed as different and so instead of most people went to the African community, African American community maybe like a teacher professor they went to LGBT member and kind of asked ‘em their point. We kind of wanted to do something different. See how a women in business is viewed cause even today that’s still a big topic and pay… ENGLEHART: mhmm. TYLENDA: Pay differences and everything like that. So that’s where we did our research and we, we saw that the 50 influential most, most influential women in Grand Rapids and then we found your name so that’s kinda how we got here. ENGLEHART: Ok. The…the…the focus is though civil rights? TYLENDA: mmm ENGLEHART: Histories, is that western Michigan civil rights histories? TYLENDA: I mean she didn’t give us…she didn’t make it…she didn’t tie us down too much and we even asked her if this was ok and she loved the idea. ENGLEHART: hmmm k TYLENDA: of going out to you so it kind of just worked out and we just wanted to be different. ENGLEHART: Yeah...well… it is interesting when you say civil rights obviously that when I talked about the diversity initiatives, the chamber…… it brought to mind that our chamber was very abnormal. It was the only chamber in the United States that had full time staff dedicated to diversity problems, training and education programs, and it was interesting. At one point when I was very early on in my chamber tenure, there was a major company in town that came to the chamber and asked to have a meeting, so it’s… there are a couple of VP’s. He said they thought we were spending too much time on diversity. TYLENDA: Really? ENGLEHART: Initiatives and programs. TYLENDA: Geez ENGLEHART: and we should be spending more time and interest on political activities and that was what they paid their membership for and if we didn’t make some adjustments they would be cutting back on how much they donated to the chamber and they did. Page 12 �TYLENDA: Unless they changed ENGLEHART: Cause I didn’t change my mind. TYLENDA: Yeah JOHNSON: What sort of a impact did you see your diversity initiative ENGLEHART: Having? JOHNSON: Yeah ENGLEHART: Well they had this program called "Facing Racism" that is just a tremendous 12 week program and the impact I saw was that people that would say to me years after they had gone through it what a change it made in their life because it’s facilitated and it puts you...first of all the makeup of the classes are always intentional to be diverse and you learn a lot about yourself you learn a lot about other races but you learn how… you’re put in situations so how it… it’s a feeling you… TYLENDA: mmhhmm. ENGLEHART: How someone feels and…and there’s… it’s hard to explain it…it’s a very experiential project. I’m trying to think of an example, something they do... TYLENDA: Kinda put people in that. ENGLEHART: We… they do different scenarios but then…but there’s like one they have… they’ll have extra questions like...it’s called packy or back pack. I don’t know, it’s been years since I’ve gone through it but they would a ask question and if you could answer yes then you… then you could step back or, or forward, whatever it was and then this one and they…they ask about when you go to the… if you were to walk into the office or yard you say I need a band aid I cut my finger I mean what color is the band aid? TYLENDA: Yeah...it’s true. ENGLEHART: Now they do have clear band aids and now they… TYLENDA: uh huh ENGLEHART: do have...but typically I mean it’s just those kinds of things and you think will…how would I feel if every time...ah...every…, its…it’s like one more time someone’s pointing out to me I’m different. TYLENDA: mmhhmm ENGLEHART: I’m not the same I mean it’s those little tiny. TYLENDA: and they go Page 13 �ENGLEHART: examples TYLENDA: like some dolls stuff you look at. ENGLEHART: Exactly...exactly. TYLENDA: Cabbage Patch dolls. ENGLEHART: So, so I think that I saw that it made an impact because companies including Grand Valley have put a lot of people through these programs. I think they see it as a way to begin to educate. TYLENDA: mmhhmm ENGLEHART: That begin to tell people that you need to be aware it’s creating that awareness. It’s creating just some of the words that you use and the phrases that you use. I mean one person said this guys in the white hat and this guys and the white hat black hat ...good guy bad guy. Well that wasn’t acceptable because if you think about it the black hat was always the negative and the black was always being associated as the negative piece. And so again those are small examples but you start to think about how you speak and you start to think the language you use and how someone else hears that and I spent a lot of time with the different groups getting to know them whether they were African American or… Bing is a good friend of me who owned Eastern Florrals so the Asian community and so just learning that other people’s viewpoint is ok its different but its ok. And then so then in the workplace the more you do that the more productive companies become because you’re more open to and more creative ideas. TYLENDA: Exactly. ENGLEHART: because if you look at the most successful companies, they are companies that have embraced diversity not just by saying we embrace diversity TYLENDA: they actually… ENGLEHART: but by actually doing it and incorporating it and having people in leadership positions that are different. TYLENDA: mmhhmm ENGLEHART: Power and different backgrounds and whether it’s at the chamber…one of my VP’s was a lesbian woman and she was black. It’s like two strikes. TYLENDA: uh huh ENGLEHART: Haha TYLENDA: Haha ENGLEHART: Ok she’s qualified and she’s good. Page 14 �TYLENDA: Yeah ENGLEHART: but again that’s not always seen, you don’t see that very often. JOHNSON: So…so that’s like what you told the company that came to you and said that they think you shouldn’t be spending as much money on that and you’re like well its… ENGLEHART: It’s good for the community, it’s good for the bottom line of the chamber, and it’s good for Grand Rapids. JOHNSON: mmhhmm ENGLEHART: To see that not everybody’s homogeneous, not everybody is, I used to jokingly……not everybody is white, Dutch, Christian reformed TYLENDA: Yeah ENGLEHART: They’re not; look on the streets in Grand Rapids… a little different than it used to be. Now the leadership may still be… but I was a woman and I’m Jewish. I mean…so I didn’t fit in any of the categories. TYLENDA: ah huh. ENGLEHART: So TYLENDA: So did you find a lot of companies embracing it then from… ENGLEHART: They’re starting to more and more… TYLENDA: Do you? ENGLEHART: Just starting to TYLENDA: Do you see still a lot of… kinda do as we say not as we do? Where they do kind of... say there embracing it yet they still treat people ENGLEHART: I think there’s a lot of religious discrimination… TYLENDA: Really? ENGLEHART: Still. TYLENDA: mmhhmm JOHNSON: Do you think that that might be like a west Michigan thing or is that…is that everywhere? Page 15 �ENGLEHART: I think it’s more prevalent in west Michigan. I’m not…I don’t know that it’s just west Michigan but it’s certainly something that you go to a cocktail party and people always say well what church do you go to? TYLENDA: Yeah ENGLEHART: It’s just…that’s part of the vernacular. That’s part of what they say and so when people are talking and there having casual conversation that’s part of what they ask in west Michigan. It’s…what church do you go to? JOHNSON: huh ENGLEHART: And when you tell ‘em you don’t… TYLENDA: Yeah ENGLEHART: They don’t quite know what to say....well I go to Temple Emmanuelle and I’m Jewish and its down on Fulton and yeah…it…and you…and simple things like…eh , the Jewish holidays which are different than the Christian holidays. So for me I……one time there was huge meeting that was planned and nobody had asked about my calendar and it happened to be on a Passover… TYLENDA: Wow ENGLEHART: And I said I can’t be there and they said well why not and I said its Passover and I said there’s not very many days I miss but I’m go to Temple...it’s like you guys with Christmas and Easter I go. TYLENDA: Yeah ENGLEHART: A couple of ‘em I go to and tried to make light of it and they were really upset that I didn’t come. TYLENDA: hmm ENGLEHART: They didn’t understand it and I said well you didn’t ask me TYLENDA: Yeah ENGLEHART: You just assed that because I was blonde and that… that I was probably Christian well you didn’t ask so those kinds of things… I think that it’s harder for a woman…I think if a man had been in that situation… I think that they would have probably understood more. I think cause if a man said now it’s a religious holiday. TYLENDA: Yeah ENGLEHART: I have to go to the Temple I think that would have been ok because people respect that. I think with a woman it’s almost like well… you couldn’t. Page 16 �TYLENDA: Break a rule and… ENGLEHART: Yeah or I don’t know I just… it I definitely felt minimized. TYLENDA: Ok ENGLEHART: By that TYLENDA: And was that for the… was that the chamber you said? ENGLEHART: No it was a meeting that somebody had that I was supposed to go to and represent the chamber TYLENDA: Oh, ok. ENGLEHART: So it wasn’t a chamber meeting. We would have never have scheduled something on a holiday. JOHNSON: I’m curious more hearing about this Jewish church that you go to and that community. ENGLEHART: Well there’s the Jewish community in Grand Rapids. There’s actually…three...really two major temples. One is Temple Emmanuelle on Fulton right by Aquinas College TYLENDA: Oh, ok. ENGLEHART: And then there is a Ahavas Israel which is on Michigan St. which is over almost by Michigan at the beltline that far over and then there’s another one that’s called the Chabad house. And the difference is that there is reformed Jews and there’s conservative Jews… and then there’s the Chabadnics which are the ones that are the black hats and they only walk and so. TYLENDA: mmhhmm. ENGLEHART: There is a very small group of them in Grand Rapids, but the temple I belong to is a reformed temple so people who are in the reformed Jewish community are sometimes ......intermarriages…not both…maybe not both Jewish and… its more liberal… Ahavas Israel is very conservative… on Michigan all of their services are in Hebrew. TYLENDA: mmhhmm. ENGLEHART: A lot of the services are in Hebrew at temple Emmanuelle as well but it is much more liberal and habab and some of the more conservative temples women aren’t even allowed to sit with the men TYLENDA: Wow. ENGLEHART: It’s that it’s still very divided…so…but there’s… I don’t know…I’d say maybe…it’s really small. There’s less than a thousand families in… Page 17 �TYLENDA: Right. ENGLEHART: In west Michigan…really in Grand Rapids. TYLENDA: ah huh. ENGLEHART: So not a very big…not a very big community. TYLENDA: I mean… yeah cause I live back home, right by West Bloomfield. My cousins are Jewish so I’m really familiar. ENGLEHART: Yeah. TYLENDA: That’s a really big area. ENGLEHART: A big area. TYLENDA: yeah ENGLEHART: Yeah…here your definitely a minority... to be Jewish... its…I think there’s a lot of……again a lot of stereotypes that people have that are not accurate and… TYLENDA: mmhhmm ENGLEHART: So it’s also a good opportunity as visible as I have been to also educate people. TYLENDA: You’re certainly in the position to do that…that’s good. ENGLEHART: Yeah it’s been interesting...deep breath...no I don’t want a Christmas present thank you… JOHNSON: You get Christmas cards and stuff? ENGLEHART: Oh yeah, all the time. TYLENDA: aagghh ENGLEHART: Yeah I mean I’m not easily offended I just think it’s interesting because people … TYLENDA: Assess so much ENGLEHART: Well and they just…even if they know they still send your Christmas card. TYLENDA: Man. ENGLEHART: It’s like ok, whatever, hahaha. I’m on your list. Ok. JOHNSON: Alright. Well thank you so much. Page 18 �ENGLEHART: I hope you have some information and if there is anything else…I can’t think what else I could tell you my gosh. TYLENDA: That was perfect. ENGLEHART: My life is kind of like an open book. TYLENDA: We’ll certainly reference that article too you have online ENGLEHART: Yeah, I think that’s a good article to really like…aagghh...I sign here it looked like you guys are supposed to sign down here, is that right? JOHNSON: I mean I can fill that out but yeah…I just need your signature. ENGLEHART: Oh JOHNSON: And then you can keep this one ENGLEHART: oh ok JOHNSON: Is that right? TYLENDA: Yeah one of them is for her, I think. ENGLEHART: oh ok the interviewer’s name. You want my address here? TYLENDA: Ah you can just put the school if you want. ENGLEHART: No I… cause Grand Valley…I know… I get all of their… are you kidding once you give money to Grand Valley TYLENDA: You can’t get away. ENGLEHART: I’m on every one of their lists. Kind of hard to get away from Grand Valley. There the best at fundraising there is. JOHNSON: Should we now do the introduction that we kind of skipped over in the beginning? ENGLEHART: Oh JOHNSON: That we’re TYLENDA: What do you mean? JOHNSON: That we’re meeting here with… ENGLEHART: oh ha. Page 19 �JOHNSON: Jeanne Englehart at the Grand Rapids Child Discovery Center TYLENDA: And I’m Evan Tylenda. Jason: I’m Jason Send. Phil: I’m Phil Joslyn. JOHNSON: I’m Connor Johnson. TYLENDA: And that concludes our interview. END OF INTERVIEW Page 20 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3b4d04bd9ddba33dfe3b5cc287342370.mp3 4159a964c2d604688e02418cbd4965e9 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Englehart_Jeanne Title A name given to the resource Jean Englehart audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Englehart, Jean Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Evan, Tylenda Johnson, Connor Send, Jason Joslyn, Philip Description An account of the resource Jeanne was raised in Atlanta, Michigan. She is a successful business women in the West Michigan area. She discusses how she became the successful woman that she is today. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-02-22 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7ab5fbf2401f4d096f36a855d1f171dc.mp4 233fb504b9fed2c8e48c1df03101ca67 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9b91c6feaf4078b4fce020e3c4168726.pdf e2c3bb8e2a1291bd52ff9d4b7d1ed9d3 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview World War II Spud Ensing Length of interview (50:23) (0:08) Background Born in Grand Rapids, Michigan on December 31, 1926(0:35) Lived in Grand Rapids until 8th grade then moved to Cedar Springs (0:41) Father worked as a furnace installer during the Great Depression (0:54) Fascinated with airplanes starting at a young age (1:50) Had followed war since beginning and wanted to join military (2:30) Joined Michigan State Guard at 17 which was a local militia unit (3:00) Learned basic infantry skills but did not like to sleep on ground (4:00) (5:00) Enlistment/Training Joined Navy in December of 1944; told recruiter he was interested in aircraft (5:00) Took train from Grand Rapids to Memphis, Tennessee for boot camp (5:15) On train there was a sailor with another sailor in handcuffs for deserting (5:51) Assigned barracks and did a lot of drilling and specialized training for aircrew (6:25) Only 6 weeks of training; included rifle shooting and ship recognition (7:30) Went to aircraft mechanic school for 6 months (7:45) About 100 men in a training squad with about 6-10 squads at camp (8:40) Trained by veteran Navy personnel; had advantage from working with father (9:35) Was in gunnery school when the Japanese surrendered (11:48) Went to gunnery school to learn air-to-air combat (12:16) (13:00) Active Duty Primary job was a mechanic and secondary job was aircrew (13:37) Contracted malaria while in Florida looking for crashed plane in Everglades (14:36) Undiagnosed until Navy captain from South Pacific recognized it as malaria (15:52) Reenlisted in Navy because he missed aircraft; stationed in Glenview, Illinois (16:45) Had the rank of 3rd class petty officer (17:00) Was married living off base but worked every day at 8 am (17:30) Stationed at Glenview until May of 1957(19:19) (19:38)Korea Had to train pilots and mechanics to work on jet engines (20:06) Navy and Air force were going to be split into separate branches (20:30) Left Navy and joined Air Force to stay with the aircraft (21:04) Started as a tech sergeant in the Air Force (22:15) Sent to Korea as an occupation force (22:34) Flew in a charter commercial plane with several stops in between (23:24) There was a lot of war remains in Korea (building rubble, burnt trees) (23:50) Worked on F-86 Sabre jet-fighters (24:02) �Did not have a lot of contact with the Korean people (26:00) Stationed in Korea for 9 months then went to Okinawa for 3 months (27:10) Okinawa was rebuilt to be similar to USA; worked on T-33 jet planes (27:30) After year of service overseas, sent to Lincoln, Nebraska to work on B-47 jet (29:48) Lived here from 1958-1963 before the base was closed down (30:40) (31:00) Vietnam Shipped to Mactan, Philippines on Christmas Eve 1965; family stayed in Nebraska (31:10) In Philippines worked on C-130 aircraft in the 463rd troop carrier wing (33:09) Rotated back and forth between Vietnam and Philippines every couple months (33:40) Had to train on C-130s because he did not know the plane (35:15) Job as a line chief, which kept everybody on track working on the planes (35:34) Lived off base because he was a senior Non-Commissioned Officer (36:18) Viet Cong attacked almost every night with firefights (37:07) First mortar attack was day after he went back to Philippines for last time (37:30) After Vietnam was sent to New Mexico in service for 22 years at this point (42:00) (42:00) Post Service Discharged due to sickness in July 1946: did not re-enlist (16:00) Went to work with father, but did not get along (16:14) Became movie projectionist for 8months inn Rockford, Michigan (16:30) Retired in 1968 because he was going to be sent back to Vietnam (42:50) Moved back to Grand Rapids, Michigan with his family (43:45) Worked for Northern Air as mechanic for 10 years (44:10) Worked for Herman Miller in flight department for 10 more years (44:18) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ensing, Eugene "Spud" (Interview outline and video), 2012 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Ensing, Eugene "Spud" Description An account of the resource Spud Ensing was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan late in 1926. He enlisted in the Navy in 1944 and trained as an aircraft mechanic, but the war ended before he got in it. After contracting malaria while on assignment in Florida, he was given a medical discharge, but soon reenlisted and trained on jet aircraft, and eventually served in Korea after the end of the fighting there. In 1957, he transferred to the Air Force, and did a tour in the Philippines in 1965-66, where he serviced C-130 transport aircraft and made regular trips to Vietnam, and retired in 1968 rather than return to Vietnam. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings United States. Navy Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-08 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context EnsingS1434V Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/96f39e641fad409cef4a63d71ada953e.pdf 4920150361bbc953954ea6b861db2664 PDF Text Text WITH I.ASTING FRIENDSHIP Your Majesty, Queen Beatrix: Your Royal Highness, Prince Claus: Dear Friends: This is an hour of praise and thanksgiving to God for two hundred years of unbroken friendship between two nations: The Netherlands, and the United States of America. In a world weary of wars, and rumors of wars, it might well be our prayer that all nations of the earth enjoy such enduring and friendly relationships as the one that has existed between Holland and America. It_pleases the Lord when two persons maintain an honorable relationship. It pleases Him equal ly when two nations do the same. But how is this possible? With all the differences between nations and races - How is this-possible? With respect to The Netherlands and the United States of America - again - How was this possible for 200 years? What were the factors that played a part in establishing and cementing our two centuries' old connection? There are, of course, no simple answers to these questions . There are historical reasons for such countrie s as ours being friendly. But I am-not an historian. Anq there are political considerations. But I am not a politician. And there are economi c and other factor s . Again, I am not qualified to analyze. I am a minister. A Daninee . So I ask and answer these questions as a dominee. What is this tie that binds u s? Or, to broaden the question, - What is it that brings, or can bring, peoples and nations together? There are several answers . I shall mention only three. · I mention three because every good Dutch daninee always has three points . One factor is trouble. A corrrnon peril. A conman enemy . I have in possession a little Dutch book entitled "De Weleerwaarde Heer," written by Ds . Voila - a pen name for a minister who served a church for many years in Amstelveen. In this little book, he describes h is first plane trip from Amsterdam to New York City . Never having flown before, he was apprehensive. I t didn't help either to discover that he was seated next to a lady whose appearance seemed to di scou rage any possibility of conversation. He'd already made a bad beginning with her by accidentally knocking her hat off with his attache case . But after a few hours, they did beg i n a ki nd of conversation; she in English with a mixture of Dutch, and he in Dutch, using as many English words cis h., could muster. Sanehow, they got along, until they drifted into the subject of education, the training of chiliren . She had strong opinions in one direction. His were equally strong in an opposite direction. And so their conversation died. They were too different. They really didn't like each other. my Then the plane developed engine trouble. The passengers were aware of it . Despite the voice on the intercom, jn various l anguages, seeking tn assure all aboard, all were very tense. Approaching a landing, there was talk of a crash. No one spoke . All had to bend forward with heads down . After what seemed like an etemi ty , they landed safely ., Only then did the minister and the lady discover that, through those tense moments, they had been holding each other's hand . ' �Page 2 Queen Beatrix Trouble, you see, bring, people together.. And nations too. Unlike the individuals i n the story, our two nations do not dislike each other " On the contrary. But we are different . We do not, and we have not, always seen things the same way. Nevertheless, during those times in whi.r.h we shared a camuon peril; during those times when we shared a colIIlilon threat our bonds were especially strong . We held each other's hand ., In the gospel of Joh~, chapter sixteen, verse thirty three, Jesus said to His disciples; "In the world you will have 'tribulation' . " We all know t hat they did - as do many of His disciples today as well. In the Gennan Bible, the word for "tri~ulation" is "angst ." That is a bigger word. "Angst" means dread, apprehension, anxiety , anguish, pressure . In the Dutch Bible, the word is "verdrukking," which is related to pressure . But elsewhere in the Dutch Bible, that same Greek word is translated "benaauwdeid." Now,. with apologie$ to those present who are not of Dutch descent, may I say that among those of us who are, not all of us can speak the Holland language . Indeed, few of Dutch de s cent retain an ability to speak Dutch . Th~ more's the pity. But there are some Dutch words we all know, because they are untr anslateable, like " geze llig" (cozy), "vie s" (not c lean), and a third is "benauwd . " There' s re~lly no word in Engli sh for "bennuwd ., " "Ang s tig," "angst" - pres~ed in. What I wi sh to say is that we live in a world today in which the re is "angs t" for all; "benaauwdeid" concerning the future. That is sanething that brings u s together . An atomic age . A connnon peril. But a conmon peril is not the only thing that can bring people and nations together . A common cause, or purpose , or goal, can do the same . A few months ago, at a Church Unity meeting, I had occas ion to tell the true story of two wanen in Rotterdam in the days of t he war. They had lived side by side for many years, in a r ow hou::.c, separated by just a wall . But in all those years they had never spoken to each other because the one was Roman Cat.J.iolic while the other was Refonned . And so they were worlds apart. But one day roneone was shot in front of thei r doors. Both saw it " Both rushed out . Together they gave shelter, and food, and h~a ling. The man survived. Together they engineered his escape wi t h the he lp of the underground . Their differences remained " At the same time, something had happened. A canmon cause had made them one. And so our nations too. The Netherlands and the United States arc not the same . We have our differences - like those ladies in Rotterdam . Yet, in our history together, common causes and conman goals, as well as common perils and common dangers , have knitted us, and cemented our relationshi p . I mention one more factor that brings people and nations together; not a common peril, or cause , - but a common Lor d " The Netherlands and the United States are traditionally Christian nati ons. The gospel of Jesus Christ has been proclaimed in both our countries , ctrurch towers and church steeples dot both our landscapes; not Dutch churches and American churches , but One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, wi lh one Lord, one faith, one baptismo He is the Lord of all; also Holl and and America , His words have been proclaimed, and heard, and believed, in Dutch and English , Listen to some of them: "Blessed are the peacemakers" - not just the peace l overs or the peace seekers, but the "peacemakers . " Ye a re the Salt of the earth . Ye are the light of the world. "In the world you ' �-- Quee n Beatrix Page 3 you will be 'benauwed' but be of good cheer, for I have overcome the world." Now the unity that results from a common a]legiance to this Lord is like none other. There has been a falling away, in bot h our lands , especially in the latter half of this century, from this cormnon Lord and from His word . The signs are there in both our coun~ries " Thi s is not good! Dr . Carl He nry, i nternationally renowned theologian sai d recent ly, "The fote of the west turns on what we do with this book" (Bible). He is right! Therefore, I pray that in both our land s , God wi ll be honored, and Hi s Son believed and served; . that in the next century our u nity, together , will spring less and less from cormnon peril s (God grant it!), more and more frcm COOIIJlOn causes, §Uld most of a ll, from the f act that we honor a cOOIIIlon Lm-d. God bless the Netherlands. Its royal family and citizens . God bless the United States of America " Its pre sident and citizens . God bless both our naticns with lasting friendship , and freedom! Indeed, God bless all nations of the earth, and gi ve us peace! Jacob D. Eppinga, Pastor LaGrave Avenue Christian Refonned Church This meditatiqn was delivered at a service of Thanksgiving and Praise, in the presence of Her Majesty Queen Beatrix and His Royal Highnes s , Prince Claus , June 27, 1982 , in honor of 200 years of friendship between the Netherland s and the Uni t ed States of America. ' � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Adriana B. and Peter N. Termaat collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Termaat, Adriana B. (Schuurman) Termaat, Peter N. Description An account of the resource Collection contains genealogical, personal, and family papers and photographs documenting the lives and interests of Adriana and Peter Termaat. The bulk of the materials are related to family history and genealogical research carried out by the Termaats, including research notes and materials about places in the Netherlands that were significant to the Termaat and Schuurman families, such as the city of Alkmaar. Other materials in the collection are related to the Termaats' experiences on the eve of and during the Second World War, especially the German occupation of the Netherlands and the Termaats' participation in organized resistance to the Nazis. Also included are materials that document the family's post-war life in the United States, including their public efforts to recognize, commemorate, and honor people and events significant to World War II. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1869 - 2012 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/719">Adriana B. and Peter N. Termaat collection, RHC-144</a> Subject The topic of the resource Netherlands Netherlands--History--German occupation, 1940-1945 World War, 1939-1945 World War, 1939-1945 -- Underground movements -- Netherlands Dutch Dutch Americans Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-144 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Text Image Type The nature or genre of the resource application/pdf image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng nl Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-144_Termaat_WRI_1982-06-27-Speech-Jacob-D-Eppinga Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Eppinga, Jacob D. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1982-06-27 Title A name given to the resource With Lasting Friendship Description An account of the resource Meditation delivered by Jacob D. Eppinga, Pastor of LaGrave Avenue Christian Church at the service of Thanksgiving and Praise, in the presence of Her Majesty Queen Beatrix and His Royal Highness, Prince Claus, June 27, 1982, in honor of 200 years of friendship between the Netherlands and the United States of America. Subject The topic of the resource United States Netherlands Netherlands--Kings and rulers Dutch Americans Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/719">Adriana B. and Peter N. Termaat collection (RHC-144)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/cadde29ca7360d3146b7c7ce0f3695dc.m4v 3d91b48e3274fd7e005385e46ce47d3d https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a75a77979ef08581d9a3df824b4d2289.pdf 45637a8940b8b46d143df5da9e25bd9e PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans' History Project Stuart Eppinga World War II 39 minutes 20 seconds (00:00:18) Early Life -Parents were immigrants from the Netherlands -Fell in love in the Netherlands -Father wanted to move to the U.S., mother did not -Made a compromise: he would go and get established, she would follow -Father came to Detroit, found work as a carpenter, and made a lot of money -Stuart had a brother that was eight years older -Mother died giving birth to Stuart -He weighed less than three pounds -Small enough to fit in a cigar box -Father found a nurse that spoke Dutch -They eventually married and she became Stuart's stepmother -Older brother, Jacob, was born in the United States -Became a pastor and worked at a Christian Reformed Church in Grand Rapids -Did that for thirty years -Step mother was excellent -Born on June 17, 1925 -Grew up in Detroit -Went to a Christian school for the first eight grades -Went to Southeastern High School in Detroit -Taught there after the war -Graduated in 1943 -Shortly after graduating got drafted (00:03:54) Life after the War Pt. 1 -Used the GI Bill after the war to go to college -Attended Wayne State University in Detroit, Michigan -Wanted to stay close to his family and close to his wife-to-be (00:04:39) Getting Drafted -Got drafted into the Navy in 1943 -Reported for a physical during the draft process -After being deemed fit for service men were assigned to a branch of the service -The soldier giving out assignments would ask them what they wanted -Then he gave them whatever he felt like giving them -When Stuart got up to the soldier he said to give him whatever -Happy being assigned to the Navy -Loved being in the water, so it felt like a good fit (00:06:03) Basic Training -Sent to Camp Peary, Virginia for basic training �-Got trained by a Marine, and the Marines hated the Navy personnel -He will never forget his arrival at Camp Peary -Got off the train and saw hundreds of men from all over the country going to the camp -Enjoyed basic training -Liked being outside and doing exercise -Enjoyed the marches, the discipline, and getting up early -Had no trouble adjusting to the military -Remembers two men being discharged -One man was young, recently married, and was basically having a nervous breakdown -The other man got discharged due to having a bad back -Trained with rifles -Received gas training -Went into a building filled with mustard gas, wearing a gas mask -Ordered to remove their gas masks then the doors were opened to go outside -Crawled on an infiltration course -Crawling under barbed wire while a machie gun was fired over his head -Understood why they were forced to do what they were forced to do -It was the best physical shape he was ever in -There were accidents in basic training and men died -Remembers men panicking on the infiltration course, standing up, and getting shot (00:10:44) Stationed in Bermuda -Given a ten day leave after basic training to visit home -Reported to Norfolk, Virginia -Sent down to Bermuda -Most likely assigned to Naval Air Station Bermuda Annex -Leased to the United States by the United Kingdom -His duty in Bermuda was to help with the maintenance of the base -Base was home to PBY-3 seaplanes -Went on a few anti-submarine patrols with them -Got to see convoys sailing for Europe and Africa -Saw troopships surrounded by destroyers and destroyer-escorts -Could see the beautiful coral reef around Bermuda -Looking for U-Boats in the Gulf of Mexico and near the U.S. -Present for the capture of U-505 in June 1944 -U-Boat now at Museum of Science & Industry in Chicago -Remembers six Italian submarines coming into their port to surrender -Talked with some of the Italian sailors -Learned that they had been attacking German U-Boats -They were disillusioned with Mussolini's incompetent leadership -The submarines were from World War I -About thirty sailors per submarine -He got along well with the Italian prisoners of war �-For a while he ran a boiler that turned salt water into fresh water -Worked for the Welfare and Recreation Department -Enjoyed that duty because he enjoyed sports -Ran the sports program -Organizing basketball, baseball, and pool games -Wanted to go where the action was -Applied for the Underwater Demolition Teams (precursor to the Navy SEALs) -Never got accepted, and in retrospect is happy he didn't -Stationed on Bermuda for eighteen months (00:15:47) Stationed in Guam -Requested a transfer after eighteen months on Bermuda -Sent to Davisville, Rhode Island then sent to Norfolk, Virginia -Assigned to a ship in Norfolk that would take him to Guam -Sailed from Virginia to the Panama Canal to Hawaii to Guam -Lived in a tent on Guam as opposed to a barracks like he had on Bermuda -There were still Japanese troops on Guam when he was there -On Guam when Japan surrendered -On Guam he was assigned to guard a work detail of Japanese prisoners of war -Assigned them work and guarded them -Had them digging ditches and removing rocks to keep them busy -Never turned his back on them for fear they would rebel and kill him -The Japanese believed they should have died fighting -Food wasn't great on Guam, but it wasn't that good anywhere -Ate a lot of chipped beef (nicknamed "shit on a shingle") -It wasn't very substantial food -Didn't lose any weight, but didn't gain any weight either (00:18:42) End of the War & Coming Home Pt. 1 -At the end of the war he had enough points to go home -Needed eighty five points to go home -Points assigned based on length of service, rank, combat, and dependents -He was urged to volunteer for occupation duty in Japan, but he declined -Aircraft carrier USS Enterprise stopped in Guam -He boarded it and took it back to the U.S. -Attended a Bible study on the ship -Got involved in a singing quartet that sang every night on the deck of the ship -They wanted him to stay on the ship as a singer, but he declined -Sailed through the Panama Canal and through the Caribbean Sea up to Virginia -Took thirty five days to sail from Guam to Virginia (00:20:47) Reassignment to Guam-Train Ride -When he went from Davisville to Norfolk he took a train -He was assigned to the last car, but got called first for dinner -It was great food -So after he ate he moved up to the fifth car, and so on, so he could get six meals (00:21:50) Visiting New York and Hawaii �-When he left Bermuda he sailed up to New York and disembarked at Pier 92 in New York City -Navy lost his paperwork, so he was given a day pass every day until they found it -Went into New York every day -Became the de facto tour guide for servicemen on leave -Returned to New York City in 1947 for his honeymoon -The shoe shiner at the Statue of Liberty remembered him -Got to see a lot of Hawaii when he stopped there -A lot of men went into Honolulu to get tattoos -He got to see an old friend from Detroit -Went sightseeing in an ambulance (00:24:52) Dangerous Situations -Most dangerous situation he was in was on Guam -Had to be aware of their surroundings at all times -There were still Japanese troops holding out on the island -Never knew if they would take a shot at you -There were a few incidents where a Japanese soldier fired a few shots at them -En route to Bermuda they had to zig-zag to avoid getting attacked by a U-Boat -Went swimming in shark infested waters (00:26:30) End of the War & Coming Home Pt. 2 -Stationed on Guam for six months before going home -Usually had the same audience every night when he sang on the Enterprise (00:26:59) Visiting Richmond, Davisville, and New York City -Got to see parts of Richmond, Virginia -In Davisville he met some Dutch marines -Talked with them -Learned they had fought the Germans as part of the Dutch Resistance -Receiving training in the U.S. to go fight the Japanese in the Dutch East Indies -Became friends with one of the Dutch Marines -Took him to see New York City -They got free tickets to everything and free transportation back to base -He survived the war and they are still friends -Write to each other at Christmas -Stuart and his wife visited the man in the Netherlands -The man came to visit Stuart and his wife in Detroit (00:29:49) Downtime & Contact with Home -Saw a few USO Shows -Had a few outdoor theatres to watch movies -Swam and snorkelled in Bermuda -Wrote a lot of letters home -Wrote to his parents and to his girlfriend -Took a while to receive mail (00:31:42) Officers & Other Branches of the Service �-Noticed that officers in the Navy were arrogant -Didn't see that as much in the Army -Definitely didn't see that in the Army Air Force -Army Air Force also had the best facilities because it was still so new at the time -Marines got into the fighting first -Glad he didn't wind up in the Marines -Had friends and relatives in the Marines who got killed in action (00:33:03) Reflections on Service Pt. 1 -Feels that his time in the Navy was a very good thing -Had no idea what he wanted to do with his life -Navy gave him the direction and discipline he needed (00:33:26) Life after the War Pt. 2 -Taught at Southeastern High School in Detroit -Taught music there for twenty years -Worked as a counselor for thirteen years -Encouraged a lot of boys and girls to enlist in the military -They had no future in Detroit and no direction in life -Had a lot of them come back and thank him for that advice -Travelled a lot after the war -Navy provided them with quarters when he and his wife visited Bermuda -Wife really enjoyed that trip -Visited in the late 1970s (00:35:22) Reflections on Service Pt. 2 -Helped him mature -Believes that there should still be a draft -At least one year of service -Feels that it would provide discipline and direction -Especially beneficial for people coming from poverty or broken homes -Still corresponds with a good friend that he met in Bermuda (00:37:37) Life after the War Pt. 3 -No reunions -Is not part of any veterans' group -Got married in 1947 -Had four children -One lives in California -One lives in Holland, Michigan -One lives in Alto, Michigan -One is deceased -Died after three months INTERVIEW ENDS @ 38:23 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_EppingaS1873V Title A name given to the resource Eppinga, Stuart Dirk (Interview outline and video), 2015 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015-09-02 Description An account of the resource Stuart Eppinga was born in Detroit, Michigan on June 17, 1925. After graduating from high school in 1943 he was drafted into the Navy. He received basic training at Camp Peary, Virginia and got assigned to Naval Air Station Bermuda Annex, Bermuda where he helped with maintenance, went on anti-submarine patrols in PBY-3s, and witnessed the capture of six Italian submarines and one German submarine. After eighteen months he requested reassignment and was sent to Guam. On Guam he oversaw Japanese prisoners of war being used for work, and was stationed there for six months. At the end of the war he had enough points to go home and returned to the U.S. by way of the USS Enterprise. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Eppinga, Stuart Dirk Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Moore, Deb (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Navy Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Moving Image Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/x-m4v application/pdf https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c3a06a3876c60b0966b91623abba290d.jpg abe50353596617d75af93cd59fc4f039 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Believing and Belonging on Campus Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Kaufman Interfaith Institute Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Interfaith Photovoice Description An account of the resource During the 2024 Winter semester at GVSU, the Kaufman Interfaith Institute and Interfaith Photovoice hosted nine students from different religious, spiritual, and secular backgrounds for a semester-long cohort centered on storytelling. By using predominantly mobile-phone photography, these students explored what it meant to believe and belong on campus and in the greater West Michigan community. This project was designed to help capture their experiences and stories, to enable them to find their voice through photography. The cohort culminated in an exhibition displayed on multiple GVSU campuses and curated by the students around three self-selected themes: Religious & Spiritual Practices, Barriers to Belonging, and Creating Welcoming Spaces. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2024 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Subject The topic of the resource College students Belonging Hinduism Islam Judaism Students, Foreign LGBTQ+ people Orthodox Eastern Church Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Special Collections and University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KII-03 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Language A language of the resource eng Relation A related resource Believing and Belonging on Campus: An Interfaith Photovoice Project (project) Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 2024-Kaufman-Exhibit-25 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Erasmus Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2024 Title A name given to the resource Creating Welcoming Spaces 7 Description An account of the resource My mother took this picture of me and my brothers in Salzburg, Austria. It was the last vacation we did as a family before I left for the United States, and it reminds me of the importance of family, as I have no family anywhere close to the university. The campus could improve to support incoming and international students better in order to make them feel more welcome and integrated. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Kaufman Interfaith Institute (exhibitor) Subject The topic of the resource Students, Foreign College students Belonging Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Kaufman Interfaith Institute Relation A related resource Believing and Belonging on Campus: An Interfaith Photovoice Project (project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9a6279624941dcedeb05e5347cbea676.jpg 3f9cb4d2874e05b64187e862484ef1f4 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Believing and Belonging on Campus Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Kaufman Interfaith Institute Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Interfaith Photovoice Description An account of the resource During the 2024 Winter semester at GVSU, the Kaufman Interfaith Institute and Interfaith Photovoice hosted nine students from different religious, spiritual, and secular backgrounds for a semester-long cohort centered on storytelling. By using predominantly mobile-phone photography, these students explored what it meant to believe and belong on campus and in the greater West Michigan community. This project was designed to help capture their experiences and stories, to enable them to find their voice through photography. The cohort culminated in an exhibition displayed on multiple GVSU campuses and curated by the students around three self-selected themes: Religious & Spiritual Practices, Barriers to Belonging, and Creating Welcoming Spaces. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2024 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Subject The topic of the resource College students Belonging Hinduism Islam Judaism Students, Foreign LGBTQ+ people Orthodox Eastern Church Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Special Collections and University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KII-03 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Language A language of the resource eng Relation A related resource Believing and Belonging on Campus: An Interfaith Photovoice Project (project) Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 2024-Kaufman-Exhibit-21 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Erasmus Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2024 Title A name given to the resource Creating Welcoming Spaces 3 Description An account of the resource I saw this LGBTQIA+ flag on a church when visiting Holland for the first time. I like how it shows that churches individually can decide to support the LGBTQIA+ community, which faces”, especially in the outer Grand Rapids area and within Christianity”, a lot of resentment. Back in Germany, a LGBTQIA+ flag on a church would not be possible in smaller towns like Holland. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Kaufman Interfaith Institute (exhibitor) Subject The topic of the resource LGBTQ+ people College students Belonging Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. Kaufman Interfaith Institute Relation A related resource Believing and Belonging on Campus: An Interfaith Photovoice Project (project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b83d3ae18033793c6be8b898f1760b9f.mp4 d99165c2ec14daffb718caf6c1096bc4 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1a276d74534a1f03c21aeea3013217bc.pdf 08d286ee55786900d662dcaadefde726 PDF Text Text Erickson, Floyd Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Name of War: World War II Interviewee’s Name: Floyd Erickson Length of Interview: (1:15:24) Interviewed by: James Smither Transcribed by: Lyndsay Curatolo Interviewer: “We’re talking today with Floyd Erickson of Lansing, Michigan. The interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project. Mr. Erickson, start us off with some background on yourself and to begin with, where and when were you born?” I was born in Gwinn, Michigan–– that’s in the U.P. It’s a little town 18-miles south of Marquette. It’s a mining town. Interviewer: “Now, what year were you born?” I was born in 1922. Interviewer: “Now did you grow up in Gwinn or did you move around?” I grew up in Gwinn and I went to Detroit after I graduated from high school in Gwinn and made airplane parts in Detroit. Interviewer: “To back up a little bit, what did your father do for a living?” Well, he was a lumbering man. He had a lumber camp with six/seven lumberjacks and after that he became a fire warden and game warden. He helped a game warden. Interviewer: “Did he have trouble making a living during the depression?” In the early thirties it was really rough. I remember dad as being–– I’m the oldest of 12, so I remember that very vividly. It was really rough back in those years. ‘33/’34, a lot in there. (2:00). �Interviewer: “So what would he do? I mean, was he able to keep his lumber camp or did he have to sell it?” Well, he kept it till a point [where] it wasn’t enough profit for him. So, he got a good job with the state of Michigan. He had a break, it was in World War I. And they sent–– back in those days, about 1935. My dad became a fire warden there and he got $500 from the state department for being in World War I. He made 25 trips across the Atlantic in the Navy, hauling troops over to England in World War I. Interviewer: “Was this sort of the war ‘bonus’ or––” It was a bonus. And he bought a car [for] $495. I guess he had five dollars left. Anyway, he had to have that car for his job. Interviewer: “Now, when did you finish high school?” I finished high school in ‘41. They held me back one year because the teacher said I was too bashful–– withdrawn, you know? That convinced my mother so they held me back for one year. Interviewer: “So you finish in ‘41, and is it at that point you go, right away, down to Detroit to work?” Pretty much, yes. In fact, it was a matter of a couple months and I was down there. I had a good job and my uncle and aunt helped me out, get started. (4:15). Interviewer: “Now where were you working? Or what company were you working for?” I was with [the] Excel company making airplane parts. Interviewer: “Were you doing that when Pearl Harbor happened?” I was coming out of Fox Theater [in] downtown Detroit and they were selling extras: “Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor.” So that was–– I knew I would eventually be on. By the way, I was very proud to serve my country–– very proud. Interviewer: “Before Pearl Harbor happened, had you been paying attention to the news? Were you aware of the war in Europe and that kind of thing?” Oh, yes. I kept up with things pretty well. I knew that time was running out for me as far as–– well I wanted to serve, so. Anyway, the government kind of helped my folks out there for a while, so I got off to a good start. �Interviewer: “The job that you had–– some defense jobs came with deferments, where you could have stayed if you wanted to.” Yeah. Interviewer: “Now, did your job have a deferment?” They tried to make you think that and I said no. I [was] going back home and I [knew] I was going to be drafted. So, I didn’t know if they could stop me or not, but they didn’t hold me back. Interviewer: “So you basically chose to leave the job?” Yes. Interviewer: “And go back home. Now, were you helping your family at that point?” At that period, I worked for my dad because he was the foreman on what they called outside of the mine–– on the ground. He wasn’t underground, he was a foreman on the surface. And the [something] came up and it was crushed and it was hauled out on trestles and dropped 30-feet below and loaded up from there into big trucks. Well, trucks were down below–– they were being filled up, actually. They hauled that stuff to Marquette and shipped out to Detroit, Pittsburgh, places like that. (6:56). Interviewer: “So this was iron-ore?” Iron-ore. Interviewer: “And what was your job there?” I was an oiler. I oiled all the spindles that the cable ran on, you know, to pull the cars out onto the trestles. So, I had to see that that was done. Interviewer: “And how long did you spend doing that?” A very short time length, maybe three months. Interviewer: “At what point did you get a draft notice?” I got a draft notice in December of ‘42. �Interviewer: “So basically, it’s a year after Pearl Harbor essentially. So you were in Detroit for a while and then you were back home for a while.” Almost exactly a year. Interviewer: “And then when did you actually report for duty?” Then I reported for duty–– it was like the first of February, somewhere around there. Interviewer: “Now where did you report to first?” Fort Sheridan in Illinois. Interviewer: “Was that just processing?” That’s all, yes. Interviewer: “So where did they send you for basic training?” Camp Roberts in California. Interviewer: “And how did they get you to Camp Roberts?” Train. Trains kept things running. Interviewer: “Do you remember anything about that train ride?” Oh, yes. I remember I had never seen any part of the country like that at that point. But yes, it was very, very good. (8:54) Interviewer: “How long did it take to get out there?” I’d say about three-to-four days. Interviewer: “And did you spend much time sort-of sitting around on sidings, getting out of the way of other trains?” Yeah. We had to get out of the way. The process of feeding all these countries was–– and we were the ones feeding all these countries that were our Allies. �Interviewer: “Especially the British, at that point.” Oh my gosh–– and Russia. We furnished practically all of our stuff, almost–– it seemed like. Interviewer: “They made certain things and then we made a lot of other things for them. But yeah, we gave a huge amount of stuff.” Oh my gosh. We made tanks–– well they were making [them] in Detroit [in] two minutes on the line, a tank was coming out. Interviewer: “So you go to Camp Roberts, and where in California is that or what city/town is it close to?” Camp Roberts is practically on the coast. It’s north of L.A., between San Francisco and L.A. Interviewer: “What did the basic training consist of?” Well, it consisted of crawling on your body and on your knees and stuff like that–– and rifle training. We went under the place where they shot machine guns over the top of your body and you had to make your way through this barbed-wire thing, and all that kind of stuff. (10:55). Interviewer: “And did you also get taught to obey orders and that kind of thing?” Oh, yes. Yeah. We were told what we were to do by a big Sergent up from Oregon. He was very good. Tough–– but he was tough for your good. Interviewer: “Now, how easy or hard was it for you to adjust to being in the Army?” I had had a taste of the Army back in 1938. [I] went for one month of training for us young guys in high school. Citizens Military Training–– that’s what they called it. Interviewer: “So you knew a little bit about marching––” I knew something about the service before I got in it. Interviewer: “Now, how long did the basic training last? Or, how long were you at Camp Roberts?” That was only about three months. �Interviewer: “And what happened to you after that?” They took us–– we were all [northern guys]–– out of Montana, Michigan, Wisconsin, Minnesota, Washington, Dakotas. We were all left–– kind of a bunch. They wanted guys to work in the cold weather. Interviewer: “So you had a group that was all training together and then as a group, you all went together. Where do they send you to?” A lot of us got into the 87th part of the Infantry Regiment. That was ⅓ of the 10th Mountain Division. (12:59). Interviewer: “And it was sort of the original mountain regiment that the government formed, and then they added two more to make it a division. Now, where did you train with them? What base were you at?” We ended up at Kiska. Interviewer: “Did you stop anywhere between Camp Roberts and Kiska?” Not very much. No. Interviewer: “So you didn’t go to Fort Lewis first?” So they took us there and we had to climb the volcano on Kiska. You know, like two steps forward and one back. It was horrible climbing. Climbing right–– no beach. Boy, that was a hairy landing on that volcano. (14:17). Interviewer: “So you’re going in a landing craft and you’re right there, and you’re going up a rock face.” Right. The volcanoes were right, straight into the water. No beach at all. Interviewer: “Had you had any mountain climbing training before you got there?” Very, very little up to that point. Interviewer: “So you joined the regiment after it was formed––” �We were five-months on Kiska, training all the time, climbing and shooting across the bay at targets at the ships, and held before we landed there. Interviewer: “Now, just to backup a little bit–– you talked about landing at Kiska in the Aleutian Island and the Japanese, in the middle of 1942, had occupied two islands. They occupied Attu and Kiska. Attu, some American units landed on and had to fight to capture and then they were planning on landing on Kiska. Now, were you with the group that was slated to land on Kiska initially?” Yes. Interviewer: “What were you expecting to find when you landed?” Well, we were supposed to meet something like 6,000 Japanese, but for whatever reason they pulled out about ten-days before we got there. Interviewer: “So you land and all of a sudden there’s nobody shooting at you.” Right. We found out after three-days. You couldn’t see your hand in front of your face because of the fog, you know, up there. It was just terrible the amount of fog in the summertime. That cleared up before we left. (16:13). Interviewer: “So by the time you left Kiska, you now had a lot of practice with mountain climbing.” Oh, yes. We developed a lot there for the five-months we were on that island. Interviewer: “Now, what were the temperatures like? How warm or cold––” The temperatures there were–– very on the warm-side. [When] we left there, it was snowing a little bit, December 1. December 25, I was on my folks front porch for four-days. It seemed like it was going all the time. The last 50-miles I bummed a man that brought me from Escanaba to Gwinn. Boy, I will never forget that. I told the man to let me out right [there], my dad’s car [was] in front of the drugstore. I got out, I loaded my duffel bag in the backseat, and my brother–– he was about 16 at that time–– and he came out and he said, “What the hell is going on?” So, he took me home and put me on the front porch and said, “I’ll go around and tell mom.” I was like, “What’s going on here?” That was Christmas Day 1943. And she almost fainted when–– she didn’t know I was even in the country. I saw and said I would never do that to my mother again. (18:15). �Interviewer: “So you get just a few days at home, and then where do you go back to then?” Back to Camp Hale, Colorado. Camp Carson first, but Camp Hale–– they were building it. They had enough room for some of us, so we were taken in a little bit. Before I left there, there were over 13,000 of us–– 10th Mountain. We had blended in with the 85th, 86th, and we were the 87th. Interviewer: “So you got all 3 regiments for the division now together.” So we worked together there at Camp Hale for a few months. Interviewer: “Now, did they take any of the guys out of the 87th and put them in the other regiments?” Yes. There were a lot of terrific skiers in my outfit–– the best in the world. Some of our Norwegian Suites and Finland. And I knew some of them from [somewhere]. [Somewhere] is where there were a lot of good skiers. There were all jumpers for the most part because that’s what we did up there. There’s three big ski jumps up there: Iron Mountain and there’s one over by Ironwood on the Wisconsin border, and the one in [somewhere]. They were all capable of 300 feet or more. (20:09). Interviewer: “As a kid then, had you done a lot of skiing?” Well, my dad made my first skis when I was four years old. I got a picture someplace around [here]. Interviewer: “And did you do mostly cross-country or were you doing downhill?” Cross-country. Cross-country to the places where we made jumps. Interviewer: “So you were used to that kind of stuff already.” Oh, yeah. I think about that now because we got snow–– somewhat mules, now. If we’d had a broken leg or something, it was a mile/mile-and-a-half to the main road. That would have been tough for three young kids. Boy, I’ll tell you–– Interviewer: “So you did all of that stuff when you were a kid and didn’t really think about it.” You don’t think about that then, but I think about it now. We would have been [in] real trouble. �Interviewer: “Now, what kind of job or assignment do you have with the 87th?” Towards the end of the war, I had moved into a Staff Sergeant job because the guy got hit and you’d just replace–– Interviewer: “But before that–– I guess, when you were back there at Camp Hale. What was your job? Were you just a rifleman or something else?” Yeah. I was a machine gunner there. Interviewer: “And what company were you serving in?” That was Company 87. Interviewer: “Was that a weapons company? So they had machine guns and mortars?’ Machine guns and rifles. We had some rifles–– two small rifles and a Carbine, the small one. Recently, I had a chance to handle these guns–– had a picture taken with ‘em. I can’t get over how heavy they are. They feel twice as heavy as back then. (22:32). Interviewer: “Well, you are 96 years old.” Well, of course I was around 170 pounds. Now I’m lucky if I’m 150. Interviewer: “An M1, I think, is about eight-pounds.” Oh my gosh. I’m telling you–– the difference. Of course, the machine guns, but that was a twoman job. [It] broke down into two pieces. Interviewer: “Now, was that a 30-caliber machine gun?” We’re talking about 100 pounds a piece, you know? That there was a lot of load. Interviewer: “Was this an air-cooled machine gun or a water-cooled machine gun?” Water-cooled. Interviewer: “So that’s got the big tube. That would be why you had that weight. So, you are training now for–– so you spend a fair amount of 1944 then training. Do you remember where you were when the D-Day landing took place? In June of ‘44, where were you?” �We didn’t go to Italy until December of ‘44. We were training very, very hard. Rock climbing, cross-country, downhill–– Interviewer: “So you really spent what wasn’t just a few months then at Camp Hale. You were there for the better part of a year.” Yeah. Camp Hale was a good place for training, but in the mountains 20 below, 30 below, was nothing. And then sleeping out in the open. I remember Easter morning 1944, six-inches of snow on my sleeping bag. My boots were on my chest to keep them from freezing down below. Two pairs of socks on down below. I’m telling you, boy, that was–– that there separated the men from the boys. We lost a couple hundred guys–– they went south. [It] was not for them. (25:03). Interviewer: “Did you have a lot of frostbite cases and things like that?” Yes. Interviewer: “Did you also have people with broken bones and things like that? Did you have accidents in training where people would get hurt?” Well, we didn’t have too many like that in training. There were a few, yes, but not–– when you realize there were thousands of men, you know? And we all had to go through those clubs bouncing off–– 10,000 feet training in that area on the mountain side. Interviewer: “Were there people who had trouble with the altitude? If you got too high?” Yeah. You had to adapt to that too. Interviewer: “Now, what kind of accommodations did you have at Camp Hale? Did they build barracks for you?” They built fine barracks–– warm, you know–– but it took a while to get them fully completed. We were in them before they were even completed. That there made some pretty good laughs along the way. (26:27). Interviewer: “So were you sleeping in barracks that didn’t have roofs on them or didn’t have walls on them?” Yeah. Stuff like that–– didn’t have doors. Mountain side doors were on, of course. �Interviewer: “When you were at Camp Hale, what did you do when you were off duty–– when you weren’t training. Did they have entertainment or could you go into town?” Yes. We had places to go–– by train–– to Denver, Colorado Springs, Grand Junction. And then the highest town in the U.S.A. I can’t spit it out right now, but I think it starts with an M. Interviewer: “So you’ve gone to different places in Colorado.” [It] was only 12-miles from Camp. Interviewer: “Did you go to the ski resorts and places like that?” Yeah. Some guys skied all of the time–– they were just nuts about skiing. We still had watering holes, you know. One right there in the [something]. That bar was the Silver Dollar Bar in that town. Twelve miles out at 12,000 feet. We were at 9,600 feet at Camp Hale. And that was something I’ll just never forget–– that watering hole there. What a bar. I was there last summer. (28:23). Interviewer: “Okay–– it’s still there.” My nephew–– he schemed with some of my buddies, 10th Mountain Guys, on Cooper Hill. That’s where we trained, right at the National Divide. That’s where the water runs west–– Interviewer: “Yeah. Continental divide.” That’s where our big present with 999 names on it. My best buddy is on there–– [he’s] number eleven. Interviewer: “So those were the men that were killed in action.” Yeah. Interviewer: “Now, as 1944 went on, did you start to wonder if you were ever going to get into the war?” We did. And we were about ready to lose our mountain part of our logo and finally, Marshall got with Clark and Clark wanted us right now. Interviewer: “And Clark was Mark Clark, so that’s the Commander of the Fifth Army in Italy.” �Italy, right. Interviewer: “So this is now late 1944 and we’re still kind of bogged down in the Apennines north of Rome.” Some of us were out and were already moving in December. They were in foxholes in January. Interviewer: “Now, tell us about your trip to Europe. You go from Camp Hale and then where do you go?” We got on the train and I remember going through–– [I] forgot. [We] went down to Camp Swift and that’s where we almost lost our mountain logo. Interviewer: “And where is Camp Swift?” It’s close to Austin, Texas. (30:27). Interviewer: “So you go to Texas–– and maybe they were going to convert you into a regular division.” Right. And boy, we didn’t want that. We had all of the best skiers in the country sitting there, sweating it out. Clark says, “Come on. I need you right now.” Interviewer: “So from Camp Swift, where do you go?” [From] Camp Swift we went to Newport. Interviewer: “So Virginia?” Yep. Red Skelton was there, “Give ‘em hell boys. Give ‘em hell.” We were up on this big ship. Interviewer: “So you got a send-off from a celebrity. Now, what kind of ship were you on?” We were on the biggest ship that America had. America was the name of the ship. Interviewer: “So it’s a big ocean liner?” Big ocean liner converted into a troop ship. Interviewer: “And did the ship sail by itself or were you in a convoy?” �Nope. It was all by itself. It was able to go fast enough, so they figured we stood a good chance of getting there with it. Interviewer: “So the U-Boats couldn’t catch you.” Yeah. Interviewer: “So, where do you land then in Europe?” We landed at the bottom of the boot–– Naples. Interviewer: “I guess you had to go through the Straits of Gibraltar to get there. Did you see that?” Yeah. We had one guy that got off to get into Naples. He lost control, so we had to fish him out of the water. So, he got off to a rough start. (32:31). Interviewer: “Did you stay in Naples or did you just move right out?” No, we moved right out–– north. We were side-railed quite a few times because of traffic [going] south. Yeah. There were a lot of troops there. Troops that had migrated north from Africa. Interviewer: “So you’ve got wounded men coming back and you’ve got supplies going back– – but they were using the Italian railroads by then.” Yeah. Interviewer: “So, you get to go by train part of the way?” Yeah. Interviewer: “Now, you were arriving there in January or early February?” We were arriving there in January and some of our men were in foxholes already [to] relieve Brazilian troops. So, we had to have communications with them and had to have special people to bring us together, you know. We didn’t know what they were doing and in a way, that transition took a while. (34:11). Interviewer: “What impression did you have of the Brazilians?” �Well, I guess they were doing a good job. They didn’t have any combat. But, the 92nd Division– – which was all black, except for officers. There were a lot of white officers in the 92nd. They had been replaced on [Mount Belvedere.]. So we were up front–– the 10th Mountain Division–– to take Mount Belvedere the first day. It wasn’t easy–– our whites were floating around out in the ocean and the Atlantic ocean never got to us–– our whites. Interviewer: “Oh, your white uniform. So, your snow uniforms?” Yeah. This first mountain had a foot of snow on top. We were there like sore-thumbs the next day. But [the] place was full of bodies all over the place. And the eastside got the worst of it–– we were on the westside, the 87th. So, we got by a lot better than the two other regiments. They were on the other side. Interviewer: “How long have you been in that area on the front lines before you went forward?” Maybe a week–– we had to recover. The Germans had been on the mountain off to the left [and] they could see down where we were assembling and stuff with spy glasses. And we knew that they were there, so we had been–– the night before–– came up and climbed that mountain from the opposite side. All night long it took them to get to the top, but they had experts putting in Tetons and rope in the rocks. Then the soldiers had it a lot easier going up that [mountain] by pulling themselves. (36:46). Interviewer: “They had things they could connect their ropes to so they could climb up.” So, they took care of the mountains–– the guys on top of that mountain. The Germans had maybe 50 men up there–– I don’t know exactly, but they took care of it. Interviewer: “So, they would have been artillery spotters?” Yeah. Anyway, that there really worked out good. Then we had a line that came down out there, so our wounded were shoved down on that line. That worked out beautifully. Interviewer: “Do you remember going into combat for the first time?” Oh, yes. We had one Lieutenant that couldn’t make it, and he was our leader. So we were cut-off for a little bit , but we hooked up with the breville/rental company–– like we always did, you know. And we hooked up with them and took off. �Interviewer: “You said your Lieutenant couldn’t make it, did he just not go with you or did he get hit?” He came back with us about a week later. [He] said he was fine. He was part Indian, his name was Richardson. Anyway, he turned out to be a good Lieutenant. (38:22). Interviewer: “Why was he not with you on that first day?” He just couldn’t stand it. Too much fire–– machine gun fire, especially. Interviewer: “So, he did lose his nerve that first time.” Lots of guys killed–– a lot of guys. We figured we lost somewhere around 200 men. Interviewer: “So out of the whole regiment?” Yeah, the whole regiment. And that was about a fifth of what–– because we ended up losing 999. Interviewer: “And that was out of the whole division in the course of the war. So, a fifth of the men on that one day?” Yeah. So out of about 13,000 men we lost 1,000. We had Norwegians with us too–– they were a part of our hookup there. But, they were very good. They’ve got their own plaque up there right alongside ours at the National Divide–– a big, grand thing. They lost quite a few men too. But, they were terrific skiers. Interviewer: “How long did it take to actually capture Mount Belvedere? Was it one day or four days?” We had it in one day, but we were a long way from it–– recovered, you know. To be able to say, “Well, we took that mountain.” We were about beat-up there. But, we got straightened away and sailed right on through. Mountains after that were a lot less dependent. (40:27). Interviewer: “Now, as you’re moving north in Italy, you’re getting closer to the Po Valley I mean, do the mountains get any lower or smaller?” Smaller. Yep, definitely smaller. Interviewer: “Now, how much are you seeing of the Germans themselves? Are they just firing at you from a distance?” �They are coming through our lines by the thousands. Just pouring through our lines. Interviewer: “When did that start happening?” That started happening, actually, very shortly after Belvedere. [The] Germans could see the lights. Interviewer: “Now, these German soldiers who were coming forward, how would they do that when they’re approaching? How do you know they’re not attacking you?” Like that. Interviewer: “And what impression–– what did they look like to you, these German soldiers?” They had good clothing. They had no more ammunition–– I thought it was all taken from them. They’ve been fighting a long time. I mean, three years before World War II they were fighting already. Interviewer: “They were fighting since 1939 anyway.” Yeah. Four years–– yeah. Interviewer: “Okay. They’ve been fighting. They fought in Poland, they fought in France, Scandinavia and stuff, and then in Russia and so forth.” They had already been bombing the heck out of Russia. (42:11). Interviewer: “Now, the ones that you saw–– did they look to be about your age or were they younger or older?” For the most part they were older. Because I was only like 22 or 23 at that time. [When] I got out I was 24. Interviewer: “Right. But a lot of the American soldiers would have been 19, 20, 21, that kind of thing. That’s very standard military age. So, these guys are looking a little older than that. Then, yeah they probably are all veterans. As far as you could tell, were these all regular Army troops that were surrendering to you?” Yes. Regular Army troops. �Interviewer: “You’re not seeing the SS or anything like that?” There was some SS later that we’d run into, but they were pretty well-beat too. Interviewer: “So fairly early still in ‘45 the Germans–– even before you get into the Po Valley–– some of the Germans are already coming over and surrendering to you. Now, as you go forward and you head into the Po Valley, was that dangerous to do once you can leave the mountains and go out into the open?” Yes. There’s a little difference there. You have to be ready to dig a foxhole very quickly. In fact, this is any time you stop for a while. It was a wise thing to get yourself into [the] ground. Interviewer: “Because they could see you and then they could start shooting artillery at you.” They could put a mortar round like in my buddy's foxhole. He was the first gunner and he had just cleaned up while 10 or 12 Germans got on a hedgerow. He had gotten to all of them–– him and his second gunner. It wasn’t two-minutes later they put a mortar shell right in his foxhole and it gave him a lot of internal injury–– which he died [from]. But, he took care of my buddy. His leg was almost off–– left leg–– and they said to take care of him first, but he died in the meantime. (44:48). Interviewer: “Now, was that a foxhole that was already there?” That was a foxhole that had dug. Interviewer: “Now, you got hit at about the same time, didn’t you? I mean, there was a shell blaster.” Well, at the time I was a Sergeant. I was probably looking ahead for where we wanted to go. Being informed by riflemen and rifle officers–– rifle company. Interviewer: “So, what happened to you when you got hit?” To me, coming into the Po Valley I was the Sergeant then. And, boy, that was some kind of a shell that came in right at my feet, you know. And Maddox said that I just lucked out because I was thoroughly checked and I had no blood on me. Interviewer: “How close did the shell land to you?” �They said it was a couple feet from my right foot. Interviewer: “Did they think the shell went into the dirt a little before it blew up?” Well, it made a hole. That’s for sure. Obviously, this shrapnel went underneath me because–– I was blown high enough up so that could happen. But five guys, you know, they got it and they were all further away than I was by far–– 25 feet away. (46:41). Interviewer: “So, you’re blown up in the air–– were you knocked unconscious?” I was 25-minutes out. I couldn’t hear nothing. So I [something], best way I could for a while and got by. Three hours later, I was able to hear. Interviewer: “So, you did have some effects from the shock of the blast, but on the whole you were very lucky.” Oh, I hope to tell you. Interviewer: “Now, as you got down into the valley, did the Germans oppose you when you tried to cross the river or did they just get out of the way?” Oh, very much so. They had some bursts above our heads, like [says something]. Interviewer: “Like the 88s or?” Shooting at airplanes and stuff and some of that. But, we were crossing that river–– it’s about 300 feet across there, a big river. We had to get out a couple of times because we were hitting sandbars. And these sandbars, lasted maybe three/four steps and then 25-feet down. Two of our men, in my section, [there] were two of them that went down. They walked a little bit too far. My [minnick]–– I was in charge, if he was hooked up with us. He was a very strong swimmer and he went down that water. Two of our guys–– packs off their backs, like next thing to a hundred pounds–– they were saved. He got two Silver Stars for that. (48:44). Interviewer: “Now, what kind of boats did you have to cross the river with?” We had [sound] boats. They were rubber and they came up with a couple of those things. But far to the west, the Germans were still crossing the river. They were having a worse time than we were, but we didn’t know that, of course. �Interviewer: “Now, when you were fighting did you get much air support or artillery support or things like that?” Oh, yes. We got the cavalry and air power anytime we wanted, and they kept as close to us as possible. The Air Corps–- that was easy. We would say, “We got a half of a hay-stack out there, it looks like there’s a machine that is in it–– we should take care of that.” 15 minutes later they were right there blowing the thing off the map. So, we had full support with the Air Corps and artillery. Interviewer: “Now at some point, you got a Bronze Star.” Yeah. Interviewer: “How did that happen?” You know, I don’t fully know to this day exactly what they had written up, but evidently I helped with–– which came natural–– to help with the guy that was in bad shape. I helped to take him back. They always say it’s “over and above,” you know? I was going to say something about that. (50:44). Interviewer: “You were talking about the Po Valley––” It had to do with the crossing. Interviewer: “What we were talking about [was] the artillery, the aircraft, and all of that.” At night now we were traveling a lot because of the flash-ground. And the fact that the Germans were giving up, so we didn’t have much opposition. So, we were traveling pretty good. We got into Bologna and then some of the little towns–– Verona–– that’s the big cities. Lots of little towns, the Italians had all kinds of vino along the way. Interviewer: “So the Italian people were acting happy to see you.” Oh, they hated Mussolini something fierce. They hated the Germans because the Germans were doing horrible things. I gotta tell you. Once, I was sitting in about one of these mountaintops–– maybe the fourth mountaintop, small mountain–– looking down into the valley, out of a foxhole. And I could see a mile away, an Italian farmer came back to his farm home–– [something] his farm home–– and he was singing up a storm. An opera song, you know, they love opera music. He was just as happy as you could get. 24-hours later he had his wife and his two kids with him. I could see this as if I’m looking at a television screen–– plain as day. The kids got into the house �before the parents did and all of a sudden, booby traps were going off. Smoke was coming out of the window. That’s all I know from that point. Interviewer: “So the Germans blew them up or––” Before they left that mountain–– across that valley–– they had booby-trapped that house. I don’t know if the kids were killed or what, because that was, you know, none of our business–– we were on the move. I’m sure we had medics there after, but the Germans were still on that next mountain and they had artillery and that was going all of the time. So that was quite a thing to see, you know. The happiness [and] the sadness the next day. That was hard to take. (54:18). Interviewer: “Now, once you got across the Po and things got easier at that point. Now, getting to the very spring and to the very end of the war in April and May.” Yes. We’re beyond that where I had my close call–– I forgot that story. Anyway, that’s the way it went to the Po Valley and things change differently there. We finally got to Lake Garda–– which is about 25-miles long, mile-and-a-half wide. Interviewer: “It’s a big lake up in the mountains.” Yep. Mussolini had a house on the southeast end of the lake. That was a–– well, when I was there in 2000 all of the stuff was put back together. The Italians did a fantastic job. Everything was hardly a brick on top of another brick–– this place was a mess. Interviewer: “So you saw a lot of war damage in the places that you were going through.” Horrible, horrible, horrible. We tried to get Mussolini ourselves, but Parson got a hold of him. They hung him by his heels at a gas station–– his mistress. Interviewer: “Now for your unit, you’re heading up and you kind of go up and you pass Lake Garda. You get to Lake Garda, the next thing on your itinerary is a place called Revo–– was that just a stop along the way?” There’s a stop on the north end–– Revo, yes. Just beyond that, up and close to Austria and them, we had captured a German liquor dental. 16 truckloads of booze, I understand. And the General said the men were going to have it. It’s a tough couple of bottles of booze to each–– I don’t know. It amounted to a lot of blonde-and-a-half men, I guess. It didn’t take long. He said, “We still got loaded rifles and you guys are getting drunk. No more of that booze.” So we had 2,000 [something]. And I never drank the booze, I was a beer-drinker. I had [92/10 beers] at the Leaning Tower of Pisa–– that there was after it all. �Interviewer: “Now, as the war ends you’re getting close to the Austrian border?” Yeah. Interviewer: “Now, did you encounter–– was there more organized German forces surrendering at that point?” Yes. Lots of ‘em. We really pulled the border right there at Lake Garda–– south end. We were trying to take care of the guys that were escaping on the west side of Lake Garda. Anyway, we had loaded up by Higgins boat–– way too many men, way too much recruitment. When they started that boat up, it went down like a piece of lead. [We] lost 25 men right there, just like that. I think the story is right because that’s the way I got it. And a couple of years ago, they had been looking at that boat, but they’d left it there with all the dead bodies that are all bones. 25 men we lost–– a real boulder. (58:49). Interviewer: “And of course, a mountain lake like that is very deep and very cold. So, once they go under with their packs, you’re not getting them out. Now, at the end of the war there are German armies that are trying to retreat south and Americans are chasing from the north and you’re coming from the south and they’re in between you.” Yeah. We were taking prisoners by the thousands, all that while. Lots of them would come through our line of sight. Some of them were making it out on the east side–– north. They were making it to Austria and I’m sure a few got there, but we had to have a General that was the head of the crack regiment. I can’t remember his name right now–– very familiar name. He died in a hole in the mountain–– the road was right through that mountain on up to Revo. He was standing in one of the openings–– they had to have an opening every every mile maybe. But there’s a lot of traffic on there–– trucks and stuff, no trains. But, this General’s name just has to come to me. He was a head with the crack regiment. (1:00:31). Interviewer: “An American General?” Yep. An American General. He got killed right there in that opening. Him and his Master Sergeant. And there’s a plaque right there at Revo in his honor. I can’t spit his name out. He wanted to get into the 10th Mountain Division for his last month. They had taken his division–– his division had taken quite a pounding, I guess. So, they busted it up and he said [he’ll] go with the 10th Mountain Division. He wanted to stay in the war. Interviewer: “Now, did you meet up with the American Seventh Army eventually or did you not see them?” �No. Actually, the 10th Mountain got up there into the Alps–– [something] which are a part of the Alps. Anyway, we had to go back down where Tito was screwing up. He wanted to get a piece of Italy and so we sat there for three weeks while he was making up his mind about what he was going to try to do. But, the Italians had taken that away from him in World War I. Interviewer: “Or at least they had taken it from the Austrians at that point.” So, we were sitting there waiting. Interviewer: “So was that at Trieste or thata area? Yeah it was. Now, we’ve gotten into your story, basically to the end of the war in Europe in the middle of 1945 and your unit wound up on the end of the Italian/Yugoslavian frontier–– kind of keeping an eye on things for several months. How did you spend your time while you were in that area?” (1:02:40). When we were on our way back–– first, going up, we stopped at the Leaning Tower of Pisa. We could see it from where we were bivouacked. Oddly enough, coming back we did the same thing. [We] stopped there overnight–– maybe two nights–– before we could get on the rails and go south. Interviewer: “But before that though, you were up along the Yugoslavian border.” Right. Interviewer: “And you say you stayed there for a while. So, what were you doing while you were up there?” Oh, we were just biting time. We had loaded rifles, loaded machine guns all set up and Tito wanted to make a move while we were there to stop. Anyway, that was about three weeks that we sat there. Interviewer: “And then after that they moved you out of there?” Yes. They moved us out of there–– south. We went to a ski resort–– beautiful. North of the big city on the west side of Italy–– on the west side of the boot. What’s the name of that city? [The] biggest city in Italy. (1:04:25). Interviewer: “Milan?” Milan–– north of Milan, in the country of Switzerland. We slept between sheets, the foxholes, mud, you name it. Boy, I’m not kidding you, I couldn’t believe it. A mountain resort, a ski resort. �We had guys up there at six o’clock in the morning ready to make their run. That’s the kind of skiers they were. They were nuts–– it’s cold, you know? Which, they were saving between sheets they got out on. We sat there for about a week, and we could see the girls taking care of the sheep and cattle in the mountains. It was beautiful, beautiful. And this–– I forget the name of the resort–– but it was Catholic, you know. They had these little boxes, you know. Interviewer: “Those shrines.” Yeah. That was there. Had plenty of vino and beer. Interviewer: “Did you get to do any more tourism in Italy at that point? I mean, did you get to go to Venice or Rome or anything like that?” I’m just trying to think. Interviewer: “I guess you went to Pisa and Florence is in that area.” Well, of course in 2000 I went and I was amazed. I couldn’t get over what they had done. They had just put everything back together just beautifully. (1:06:32). Interviewer: “So, when did you get orders to go home?” When we eventually got on the boat down there at the lower end. Interviewer: “Back in Naples again?” Naples again. And, we headed west. Interviewer: “So when was that?” That was in–– the war was over May 2nd. Interviewer: “Yeah. In Europe. It’s still going on with Japan until August. Well–– did they talk about using you in Japan?” We went back home–– we were supposed to go to New York, but New York was too busy. So, we went back to the same place. Interviewer: “So you go back to Newport News and that area.” �Newport News and [a] train from there on, and back to Camp Carson, Colorado. One furlough after another. I was told by my first Sergeant, he said, “Erickson, you could stay with us for a few more months.” He said, “You could kick-up a Tech Sergeant.” I said, “Not worth it. I’m going home and getting married.” (1:08:10). Interviewer: “So, when had you gotten engaged?” We never did get engaged. Interviewer: “Oh, so you just went home and––” Went home and got married. I got the picture. And that was a big day, boy. Interviewer: “Well, did you know her before you went to Europe?” Yeah. She was my–– we were down here together. I was only one year ahead of her in school with her brother. That was 1945. She waited three years. Interviewer: “Did you write to her regularly?” I wrote to her as much as I could, but she wrote to me about 20 times as much. One time, up by Kiska, I got over 20 letters at one time. They couldn't catch up to us, I guess, I don’t know. But I am telling you, it was a great day–– a great feeling. I was so proud of the fact that I was with the 10th Mountain Division. Very proud. Interviewer: “Now, after you got out of the Army, what did you do? What kind of job did you get?” I went into construction. I had done a lot of roofing work with my dad as a kid, when we were really poor. So, I went through their course–– three-and-a-half years of, one day of school, four days of on the job training. And benefited very much so. I was in housing, and building big buildings out at Michigan State–– science building. I remember in the cold winter, hanging outside doors–– all winter long. Stupid. Anyway, here we were, cold weather outfit, born in the U.P.. It seemed like everything I did was with the cold weather. After the war I was with this company and we’re putting up a screw factory here in Lansing–– it was right after the war and I got a job right, quick like [that], you know. And it was putting these pans up that hooked together to pour concrete foundations. Just going to clap two of them together like that. [It] sent me red, straight out on my face in the mud. I was still shell-shocked, you know. I got up and I was embarrassed and I felt like a mess. But, they understood after a while and there was no �laughing. It was no laughing matter. That just shows you that what you had to do, you had to do the best you could. That was to get as low as you can, as quick as you can. (1:12:24). Interviewer: “Just remember your Army training there.” Absolutely. Interviewer: “Did you stay in the construction business then?” Yes. I was in that for 60-years. I had a supervisory job, but I didn’t like it very much because I loved to work with my hands. Especially firming houses–– I love that. I built this thing. [I] was with my wife and my foot came through the ceiling one day when she was standing right here. I didn’t have my sub-floor on yet–– it was still overheads and hangers–– and my one foot came through there. She said, “Floyd, are you alright?” I said, “I guess I am.” I checked out and boy, we had a laugh. I’m not kidding you, I came downstairs and I swear on my life we had a laugh for half-an-hour. Interviewer: “Now, to look back at the time that you spent in the service, what do you think you took out of that, or what did you learn from it?” Oh my gosh. What an experience. World War II–– the war was all over, you know. You name it, war was there. And to be in something that gigantic, it moved me for the rest of my life. I was a different person when I realized what really took place. When you realize–– since Russia has lost something like–– Interviewer: “It was at least 20 million and it might’ve been more than that.” 13 million killed. Interviewer: “Soldiers–– just soldiers.” And 30 million civilians. They bombed Russia something fierce. I don’t like to say it, but they’re not good right now, today, you know. Interviewer: “Not particularly, no.” Can’t depend on ‘em. Interviewer: “Well, I tell you, you’ve got a good story. You still tell it well, so thank you very much for taking the time to share it today.” �You’re very welcome. I was very happy to be able to do this, as I have done it several times, you know. (1:15:24). � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context EricksonF2156V Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Erickson, Floyd H. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-03 Title A name given to the resource Erickson, Floyd (Interview transcript and video), 2017 Description An account of the resource Floyd Erickson was born in 1922 in Gwinn, Michigan, a small town in Michigan’s Upper Peninsula, 18-miles south of Marquette. Erickson grew up in Gwinn and eventually after graduating high school in 1941, went to Detroit to work in a factory making airplane parts. A year after Pearl Harbor, Erickson moved home to Gwinn because he knew he would be drafted soon. Nearly a year after Pearl Harbor, Erickson reported for duty in February in Fort Sheridan, Illinois. He was then sent to Camp Roberts in California for basic training. It was from here that Erickson was assigned to the 87th Infantry Regiment, part of the 10th Mountain Division. Erickson’s first assignment was to Kiska in Japan. However, after a month he was sent to Camp Hale, Colorado. As 1944 approached, Erickson and his regiment were sent to Italy, where his regiment spent most of their time. Eventually, due to his service and helping when his fellow soldiers were injured, Erickson was awarded a Bronze Star. Quickly after, Erickson received orders to go home as the war was over in Europe in May 1945. Despite offers to move up as a Technical Sergeant, Erickson decided to leave the Army and get married to his wife. Erickson then went into construction where he worked in the industry for over 60 years. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States—History, Military Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975—Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ccaa27aa2a2b26c00a1429b59489aff5.mp4 2f55a1b9e54168b24470eccf70414bde https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b0566a448dc07b20cfa3fced68fc3499.pdf 05a9ae46f2acb0557a25e2036c17313e PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Name of War: Korean War Interviewee Name: John Erickson Length of Interview: 1hr.19mins Pre-Enlistment (00:38) • Childhood (00:40) o Erickson was born on November 26, 1929 in Hastings, Michigan. (00:46) o Growing up he lived in Alto, Michigan, working on his father’s farm. Describes growing up here and the various duties he was responsible for. (01:10) • Education (01:17) o Was in school until the 5th Grade when he left since he decided to stay home. Finished his schooling in the Army. Otherwise, he taught himself how to read and write by reading the newspaper and the Bible. (01:22) o Some of his brothers had already joined the Navy. (03:00) Enlistment/Basic training (03:26) • Why he joined (04:12) o After discussing the possibility with his dad who was a WWI veteran he agreed to it. Upon firmly deciding that he wanted to join the Army Erickson promptly went to the recruiting office in Grand Rapids, Michigan, and signed up in November, 1949. (04:12) o From there he went to Fort Knox, Kentucky where he was selected as a replacement to someone else who did not qualify for that particular Army post. (04:46) • Where he went (04:51) o Fort Knox training (05:10) ƒ Was then sent here for 13 weeks of tank battalion and infantry training. (05:21) �ƒ Describes his training at Fort Knox in some detail. Among other things he dug fox holes, learned how to pitch a tent, to march and eat K-rations. (05:33) ƒ Mentions his impressions and thoughts on the Army’s discipline and focused lifestyle. (07:21) Went through the standard infantry training. (09:16) ƒ Went home by train for about a week. Afterwards he took a bus to Fort Lewis, Washington. He describes the journey there in some detail. (10:08) o Fort Lewis, WA (10:55) ƒ Started training there in March, 1950. He mentions that he was assigned to the 4th RCT combat team and remained with them during his stationing in the states. (11:03) ƒ Among the training he received here was training with snow shoes and skies while trudging up Mt. Rainier and later in his time in Alaska. (12:07) ƒ Briefly mentions living conditions here. (13:07) o Alaska (13:45) ƒ Geographically, the place he was stationed was 26 miles north of Fairbanks in a place in which he could not remember but somewhere where he could see the Russians [presumably not near Fairbanks—maybe Nome?]. (13:53) ƒ Stayed here for 3-4 months and then returned to the states. (15:43) o Back in the states (15:45) • ƒ Mentions how his service time was extended by a year because of Truman. (16:45) ƒ Was at Fort Lewis, Washington with the 4th RCT combat team when the Korean War started. Soon afterwards he was transferred to the 23rd Regiment and 9th Regiment both regiments in the 2nd Division. While in Korea he was with the 23rd Regiment. (17:25) Active Duty (18:15) o Background (18:20) �ƒ While en-route to Korea aboard a boat he couldn’t name he mentions receiving further training exercises. He furthermore, describes the journey over there. (18:50) o Korea (21:25) ƒ Landed at Pusan where a few months earlier the 2nd division had forced the North Koreans to retreat northward off the line of the Pusan Perimeter. (21:31) ƒ Coming in as a replacement he relates how his first days were of encountering snipers. (22:20) ƒ Briefly describes what sort of weaponry and guns they used. (22:35) ƒ On the march north in pursuit of the North Koreans he mentions going up many different hills all the way up to the Yalu River. Briefly describes the Korean landscape. (23:18) • ƒ As a machine gunner, Erickson describes what a typical shift looked like. (24:45) Typically, when marching northward their flamethrowers went first clearing the way of North Koreans who were well hidden in their underground bunkers. They rounded up large amounts of ammunition on their way north. (25:53) Conditions on the battlefield (26:50) • To move forward, American soldiers would have to pile the bodies of their dead comrades to avoid being hit by N. Korean bullets. (27:24) • Erickson briefly describes several encounters where South Korean soldiers worked with American units on their way north. (28:05) • While taking his turn at the machine gun on one encounter, Erickson called his superiors informing them that the Chinese Red Army were crossing the Yalu River of which his superiors couldn’t believe because the very thought of that possibility was impossible. Four hours later American soldiers were fleeing back towards the South Korean border from Chinese forces. It was during this time that he was captured. (28:25) • Erickson mentions that despite continuing to fire and picking Chinese soldiers off they just kept coming. At about 3pm that day �his unit began to retreat. Around 10pm while still waiting to receive orders to fall back he and a few others were captured. (31:10) o In the minutes before being captured, American units in the area had been warned by the Koreans that the Chinese were coming. While trying to contact HQ for orders Erickson was trying to jam his radio so that when captured it would be useless to the Chinese. (32:57) o Just as they received orders to retreat the Chinese Red Army overran them and began firing into the line of American soldiers nearby and eventually into the building that Erickson and a few other Americans had retreated into. In that encounter three Americans including himself surrendered. (33:30) • ƒ After his unit had been lined up, Erickson saw the devastation of the Chinese advance with burning tanks and dead men in the background. (35:58) POW days (36:30) • Erickson with a few of his comrades was then hauled into a pig pen where they stayed the night and then given millet the next morning. (36:36) • American POWs were treated like pigs by the Chinese who threw their food into pig troughs for the men to use chop sticks to grab their food. (37:08) • Following this, the Chinese divided the POWs into groups. While this was occurring Erickson describes how Chinese commanders treated their own soldiers. What happened next was that a Chinese soldier opened up an American soldier from the 24th Inf. Division so the rest of them could see his heart. (38:58) • Erickson describes his thoughts on this experience. (45:07) • Following this encounter, Erickson mentions that the Chinese marched the POWs unto trucks which took them to a school. Ended up walking the POWs to a cave with lots of lights. (49:17) �• During another experience, he relates how a few Chinese soldiers dropped sake down a man’s throat while digging shrapnel out of his body. Afterwards they sent the man back to the American lines with a white flag. (50:19) • Stayed in a cave enclosure for a month and then took a 23-day death march north to the Yellow River. (52:01) To scare the American POWs they would shoot their guns into the air. (52:12) • After the POWs made it to Camp 5 the Chinese began to interrogate them. (52:42) o During his interrogation, the Chinese asked him if he would write something against his country in exchange in for cigarettes and sake. He told them he couldn’t write and so his friend volunteered to write for him. As things got better, Chinese soldiers would read to them. (53:12) ƒ 23-Day Death March (55:46) • ƒ Erickson backs up and mentions how American POWs were not given winter attire until they were in the camps. (56:10) Camp living conditions (57:00) • Many American soldiers died in the camps and often when the Chinese soldiers came around they asked who was dead and if not the POWs were sent to collect brush. (57:17) • Erickson briefly mentions how they buried the bodies. (58:47) • While in camp, Erickson came down with worms in his stomach and was given garlic as a treatment. Describes this experience in some detail. (1:00:37) • During one encounter, he was sent to get bamboo strips. Describes how it was his job while out on brush detail to load brush onto to boats. He did this for a brief time. (1:03:07) • While in the camp POWs lived 20 to 30 men per mud house. They slept on the ground. He mentions where the sick were taken. (1:06:41) �ƒ • One day, he was loaded onto a truck headed back to Liberty Village. (1:07:15) • When the Chinese moved Erickson to Camp 3 he was thrown into a mud hut with b/w 50 and 70 other guys. (1:08:11) • Erickson goes on to mentions that the biggest killers of POWs were malnutrition and sickness. (1:08:51) • From Erickson’s POV his opinion of the Chinese was higher than that of the Japanese. Briefly compares the Japanese and Chinese’s treatment of POWs. (1:11:03) • Once all the POWs were gathered up, the Chinese took them back to the American lines to be reintroduced. The Americans separated the sick from the healthy after they were repatriated. (1:12:10) Going home (1:12:37) • Erickson was sent home aboard a helicopter to the states from Korea. Stopped briefly in Hawaii and then went onto California. (1:13:10) After the Service (1:13:46) • Readjusting to Home (1:13:55) o Upon being discharged, he had the choice of staying in the Army but decided to go home instead because he had had enough. (1:14:05) o Describes the different career paths that he took. (1:14:35) • Reflection (1:15:10) o Wraps up by discussing how his service changed him and impacted his life afterwards. (1:15:23) o Gives some brief details of how his service helped him to be a good soldier and survive. (1:15:55) o End (1:18:45) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Erickson, John (Interview outline and video), 2009 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Erickson, John Description An account of the resource John Erickson is a Korean War veteran who served with the U.S. Army from November 1949 to 1953. Erickson discusses his training and service in Washington and Alaska before he was sent to Korea. He joined the 2nd Division on its advance from Pusan to the Yalu River, and was taken prisoner during a counterattack by the Chinese Red Army, and spent the remainder of the war different Chinese POW camps, and provides detailed descriptions of his experiences as a POW. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings United States. Army Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2009-04-30 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context EricksonJ Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/fac0054e05164ccfbde26b31a542c619.mp4 784ed7e89806f123684bcdfe96fa20e8 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/488c73d06d5468a300bd95d9c0314817.pdf a19f43432665dfefd936f151b02b4a13 PDF Text Text Erickson, Stanley Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Name of War: World War II Interviewee’s Name: Stanley Erickson Length of Interview: (37:52) Interviewed by: James Smither Transcribed by: Maluhia Buhlman Interviewer: “We’re talking today with Stanley Erickson of Richmond, Michigan. The interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project. Okay Mr.Erickson start us off with some background on yourself and to begin with, where and when were you born?” I was born in Harris, Minnesota, farm kid. Interviewer: “What year?” (00:25) 19– What was it? Interviewer: “1919 wasn’t it?” Yeah. Interviewer: “Yeah, that’s what you told me. Okay 1919 alright and so did you grow up on a farm?” Right. Interviewer: “Okay, and how much education did you have?” At what point? �Erickson, Stanley Interviewer: “Well before going in the service.” Before going in the service? I had gone to– Interviewer: “Had you finished high school?” Oh yeah, yeah finished high school, Interviewer: “Okay, when did you graduate from high school?” 1936. Interviewer: “Okay, now was your family able to keep their farm during the depression?” Barely, barely. Interviewer: “Alright and what were you growing on the farm?” (1:20) Mostly corn. Interviewer: “Okay, alright and where did you go to high school?” Little town called Braham. Interviewer: “Okay, still in Minnesota?” Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, alright and then after you finished high school what did you do?” �Erickson, Stanley After I finished high school? Oh I had a brilliant career, a couple of characters in Minneapolis decided they needed a house boy, they run that in the paper and I answered it, well I’m sure they were a couple of queers but they were nice guys. Staff consisted of a housekeeper, an Irish guy and myself, and they loved to entertain. So I would wait there with my sleeve– Towel on my sleeve and that but a very educational experience I thought because they were– As I remember they had a polar exploration going on at the time and they had a lot of people Perrier, amongst others, as dinner guests, of course [unintelligible] interesting. Interviewer: “Alright now how long did you do that?” About a year and, let’s see it’s a three mile walk through the [unintelligible] for a teenager that’s not too good a life, I also had a contract and my Aunt Elizabeth in Chicago said “If you ever decide to come to Chicago just call me up, I’ll be there.” So one day I decided I’m going to improve myself from my $7 a week job to an $11 a week and I fry cook for White Castle. So I go down to downtown Minneapolis, get out of your street car and there’s about, oh 30 guys in front of White Castle and head back to the alley said “Oh that’s not too bad, I’ll get in line.” There was 200 back there, real honest guys, working people looking for the $11 job. I got right back in my streetcar, I went home, said “I guess I’ll go.”(3:35) So I came to Chicago then, spent most of my work life living there. Interviewer: “Okay, now when you got to Chicago did you find a job?” Oh there yeah, well I went to [unintelligible] the Swedish Covenant Hospital, oh by the way business is so bad, you wouldn’t think it possible, the first floor of the hospital was employee housing. We didn’t have real customers to fill it. Interviewer: “Mkay.” People couldn’t afford to go to the hospital. �Erickson, Stanley Interviewer: “Okay, and then how long did you stay at the hospital? Were you still there when the war started?” No. I roomed with some people down in the North Park neighborhood, put in high school down there and, uh… it was a painter. [He asked] Would I work for him? Well I had twice the wages if I was workin’ for over there, so I said fine. And why… why he offered me a union card I never knowed—a union card without knowing how to paint. I imagine I worked my way through college that way. Interviewer: “Okay. So did you start going to college then?” Well, I started in North Park and after a few years in high school I graduated and went to Northwestern. (5:09) Interviewer: “Okay. I guess I thought you said you had gone to high school in Minnesota?” Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, but now you went to high school again in Chicago, or you went to college in Chicago?” I went to college, yeah. Interviewer: “Okay it’s college, okay. All right and what were you doing when Pearl Harbor happened? Were you in school, or?” No, I was working those days as a painter. And I remember at a little restaurant—whatever breakfast, lunch, or whatever it was that day when Pearl Harbor was lost and I thought “Well, here we go.” Because it was inevitable, you could see anybody that age was gonna be in service. Interviewer: “Now, did you enlist or did you wait for them to come after you?” �Erickson, Stanley Well, no, they didn’t have to come after me. I registered the first draft of October 1940. I never saw active duty until 1943, if you can believe that. And still I’m just—well they had a list and I happened to be 3 from the bottom of the list, so the next 6 months they enrolled 100 new guys and they put them at the top of the list. And after 3 years they discovered “Hey, nobody at the end of that list is ever gonna come up!” so they turned it around. Interviewer: “Oh, so you got up there.” “We’ll take off the bottom of the list next!” Interviewer: “So what year did you get drafted?” That was about 1938, I think. Interviewer: “Well, to be drafted…” (7:15) Yeah? Interviewer: “The draft doesn’t start until 1940. So you got drafted in ‘43? Cause that was the day you gave me before. So when does Uncle Sam call you? Cause the war is already started, and you weren’t being drafted there for awhile. That’s right. Interviewer: “And so it’s after Pearl Harbor that you get drafted.” That’s right. Well… That’s kinda… I kinda flew to report for Florida. Country Club—been away to the Country Club for basic training. Interviewer: “Okay. Did you say in Florida?” �Erickson, Stanley Yeah. Interviewer: “Was that in Miami beach?” Boca Raton. Interviewer: “Boca Raton, yeah, okay. And the Army air forces were trading people down there.” Right. Interviewer: “So basically you were drafted into the Army Air Force and, okay—how did you get from Chicago to Florida?” (8:14) In Florida? Interviewer: “How did you get from Chicago to Florida?” I got orders to report down there, got a train and went down there. Interviewer: “Okay. Now did you just go as a private citizen or were you on a trip train?” A private citizen. Interviewer: “Okay. You just got on a train and went there.” Oh yeah, I got a little goodie bag with my stuff. Uncle Sam, here I am, how are ya doin? Interviewer: “Okay. And then when you got down to Florida, what did they do with you?” �Erickson, Stanley Did a lot of marching. A lot of marching. Physical training is what it was. Interviewer: “Okay. And what kind of accommodations did you have? Where were you staying?” Well we stayed right in a hotel. I remember my daughter coming down there later after when I’d been out of service, and visited the Boca Raton club, and she said “This is where you’ve been staying!” Yeah? “And this is where you ate?” And our dining room was looking out over the bay on three sides. Beautiful. But they had one embarrassment. And the military always comes and they always get themselves in trouble. They got the paid rations for seniors…and the guy they got, they charged for those rations. Ended up with more money than they know what to do with. Crazy! They had a table at the exit of the dining room: cigarettes, cigars, candy. Any kind, any time you wanted, help yourself; they had to get rid of their money. (10:02) Interviewer: “Okay.” Then from there to New Haven, Connecticut. Interviewer: “Okay, and what did you do there?” While I was there it was a Tech school. Had one of these things, we’re picking the wires apart and putting ‘em back together, why not. Interviewer: “Okay. So, were they training you to be like an aircraft mechanic, or?” I… assume that. Interviewer: “Okay.” I assume that. �Erickson, Stanley Interviewer: “And how long did you stay? Did you finish that program or did they move you to something else? No no no, that was a terminal program you may have got, you were assigned duty from there. I got my evaluation, see here’s how stupid the military can be. They’ve got several other guys graduating, they’re going somewhere but they won’t tell ‘em where they’re going. So where am I supposed to go? Then I go ahead, get suitcase packed, and I'm ready to go. Well, I find out then that I’m assigned to the Boeing School in Seattle—what base it is I don’t know. Interviewer: “Okay. So the Boeing School in Seattle, was that being run by Boeing aircraft?” Oh yeah. Interviewer: “Okay. And—” Right on their property. Interviewer: “Okay. So now when you go there what job do you have? Or do you go to school some more? I’m going to school there at Boeing. Interviewer: “And what were they teaching you?” Well there they were more concerned about the mechanics of the airplane, and the engine particularly. Interviewer: “And which aircraft were they training you for?” B-29. �Erickson, Stanley Interviewer: “Okay. And that’s a new bomber that’s coming in with a lot of new technology in it so it’s different from everything else.” It’s completely developed. Interviewer: “Not completely developed! They’re still working on it.” Oh yeah? (12:18) Interviewer: “Alright.” You would've been enjoying the assembly project. They were built in sections and you could see on the aircraft where the seams are. So one comes from Boeing, one comes from somewhere in California, and they all assemble that. And they’re put up pretty good there. There’s a big metal ring at the end of each compartment but somebody’s gotta be holding it. To assemble this thing, you gotta get four big black guys with sledgehammers and drop it. And it lines up, and they start hammering it until they could line it up and bolt it together. It was a scary process. Interviewer: “Okay, now once you—and what were they training you to do? Was that to work on the engines or?” Before I was an air crewmate. Interviewer: “Okay.” Cause that’s what they did with me. Interviewer: “Okay, so you were going to be air crew? What? �Erickson, Stanley Interviewer: “You were going to be air crew? You would work inside the aircraft.” Right, right. Interviewer: “Okay. And were you going to be there—what would your job inside the plane be? Because you’re not a pilot, so what—” No no no. I was set to be a flight engineer, so the training is best, you went along with that. Didn’t always fit. Interviewer: “Now the training to be a flight engineer while you’re in Seattle, did you go and fly in the B-29s there?” Actually I don’t know. That’s about when I’m twenty…four years old, and I report to Denver. First time I’ve ever been in an airplane. (14:06) Interviewer: “So were you testing the B-29s in Denver?” They were testing us. They had a [unintelligible] 14 consoles. Engineers control the station, these ships, and nobody knew which of the 14 guys was operating the ship. It was interesting. And you didn’t know yourself whether you were—It was simulating controls but you might actually be controlling. Interviewer: “So you’re working with simulators, you weren’t flying.” Oh we’re flying. The simulator’s in flight. Interviewer: “Okay. Now at what point did you finish all of your training? Did it take until 1945 or were you done in ‘44?” �Erickson, Stanley Our training, I figured, turned in abruptly one day. I failed and crashed. I was in one of the regular crews for that group… you are that crew, and we’re supposed to be meeting again in Kansas, before the end of that year. Interviewer: “Now once you get to Kansas now does your air crew now train together and do you?” Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay. And now you’re flying regularly, or?” Regularly, oh yeah. Interviewer: “Okay. Now did they have the whole crew together: the air officers and the enlisted men?” Yeah, oh yeah, they hold a whole crew there. Interviewer: “Alright. Now at that point what rank did you have? And were you still enlisted?” (15:57) No no, I got my commission in New Haven when I graduated from the airline. Interviewer: “Alright. So you’re a flight engineering officer, in effect.” Right. Interviewer: “Alright. And did you have your whole crew together or just the officer? Oh no, whole crew stayed. �Erickson, Stanley Interviewer: “Okay. Alright. Now what made a B-29 different from a B-24 or a B-17?” Much more automatic. Much more remote control. You didn’t—in a B-24 the gunner had to sit in the turret, the guns are right here. A B-29? You sat in an easy chair and [the placement of the guns] might be above his head, might be 60 feet away. Interviewer: “Okay. And so was there only one gunner?” (17:02) Oh no no no. The bomber was a gunner… the top gunner, and two side gunners, tail gunner. Interviewer: “Okay. Alright so you had different men operating different sets of guns, but doing it by remote control.” Right. Interviewer: “Okay. Alright and then did the plane fly higher than the other bombers?” Oh yeah. Interviewer: “Okay. Alright, it basically flies higher, has a longer range, a bigger bomb load. It’s the next generation.” Theoretically yes. Interviewer: “Okay, alright. Now, was Kansas—was that your final stage of training?” Yes, basically. Because there was the fatal crash at Wichita and another crew, cause this crew was going overseas in just weeks! We are. Interviewer: “Okay. So you had been a crew in training in Denver…” �Erickson, Stanley Oh yeah. Interviewer: “And then they moved you to Kansas to fill in for that crew that crashed. So you’re not really in Kansas for very long.” No, we had a foreshortened training. Interviewer: “Okay and then off you go with the rest of your unit and what squadron were you in?” …oh, what squadron were we? Interviewer: “The 487th squadron, was that right?” (18:25) 487? Sounds right. Interviewer: “Okay. That’s what you told me, so, alright. So do you know when you went overseas? Was it 1945 or still ‘44?” …Kinda cloudy isn’t it? Interviewer: “Well, were you in Kansas during the winter or the summer?” No, we got out of there by winter. Interviewer: “Okay, that’s probably the end of ‘44 or beginning of ‘45, somewhere in there. Okay, alright. Now once the squadron is ready to go, how do they get you to the Pacific? Do you fly out or do you take a boat?” It depended on what they drew straws. 10 crews got planes. �Erickson, Stanley Interviewer: “Okay.” Five crews were flown out there immediately and five others they just waited to see what they were gonna do with us. It’d been awhile but they did, they finally did get us planes. We were just waiting til the planes were built. Interviewer: “Okay. So you all basically flew your own planes over once you had a plane.” Yeah. Interviewer: “And then where were you flying to? Where was your base going to be?” Saipan. Interviewer: “Okay so the Mariana Islands, alright. And do you remember where you stopped on the way out?” (20:03) Honolulu and Kwajalein Interviewer: “Okay so you have to jump, refuel a couple times to get out to the Mariana Islands.” To refuel at one point, yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, now you get to Saipan and then—” What’s funny was, it was within our range but they didn’t trust us, you know but. Interviewer: “Okay so, then you get to Saipan and what kind of facilities did you have in Saipan, what was the base like?” �Erickson, Stanley Ten thousand, wooden for us, steel structure—tent structure. Oh, incidentally we got orders when we left Hawaii: shield word, you don’t know where you’re goin’, you take off but nobody’s supposed to know where we’re going so we landed in Kwajalein, stayed there over night and then go over to Saipan. At 6 o’clock, Tokyo Rose reads my name, rank and serial number. [unintelligible] A little unnerving to think that they knew exactly where you were. Well they set up a couple binoculars and they dropped you where they want, I guess. Interviewer: “Alright, welcome to the Marianas, now did you start flying missions right away or did that take a while? After you got to Saipan.” It didn’t take very long. I’m trying to think how long it… it was a few days in all. Interviewer: “Okay. And when you do start flying, where are you flying, what’s the mission?” (21:50) Anywhere in Japan, basically. Interviewer: “Okay.” Mostly the southern—that’s Industrial Japan, the southern half of it. The northern half is rice fields. Interviewer: “Alright. Now when you would go on these bombing missions, did you encounter Japanese fighter planes or anti-aircraft fire?” Yeah. Both at the time, to the greatest degrees imaginable. Interviewer: “And did your plane ever get hit?” A couple of times. �Erickson, Stanley Interviewer: “But not badly enough that you didn’t crash or had to crash land anywhere?” No, no no no. The last major repair [unintelligible] took up to more… 45 days to patch, 242 this side. 20 millimeters leave a nasty gap, which is what the Japs used—they didn’t have any 50s they had 20s. Interviewer: “Okay, so your plane did get hit pretty badly at one point.” Oh it sure as gosh did. Interviewer: “Okay, alright. And did you see any Japanese aircraft?” Quite frequently. (23:25) Interviewer: “Were they shooting down other planes in your squadron or in your group?” Yes and no, it depends on who's shooting who that day. They would attack us, we would… you knew where to fire, they’ve got a couple and they’re up here not right there. This side or other reasons. Interviewer: “Did you have fighter escorts?” After a while, not originally. They didn’t have any at first. Interviewer: “Now were you already flying missions when the battle was going on in Iwo Jima? Cause one of the reasons to take Iwo Jima was to use that as a fighter base.” Right. Interviewer: “So then they could give you escorts.” �Erickson, Stanley That’s right. Interviewer: “Okay. All right, but you were probably there pretty much from the beginning of the major bombing campaign against Japan cause that’s pretty much all ‘45.” Oh yeah, oh yeah. Interviewer: “All right. Then how many missions did you fly? 35. Interviewer: “Okay. And when did you fly your 35th mission? Did you keep flying until the end of the war or did they stop you after 35?” (24:50) No you stopped at 35. You were originally were supposed to fly 25, it kept getting stretched a wee bit as it went on. Interviewer: “Okay, Now did they do that because not enough of you were getting shot down?” They didn’t have replacements enough. Interviewer: “Oh, that too. Now did you have a sense that what you were doing was dangerous or did you not really expect to be hit?” I briefly said I was injured. Interviewer: “Now do you remember who your pilot was?” Yes, Ed Cutler. �Erickson, Stanley Interviewer: “And what did you think of him?” I was one man, an officer, and him. A good pilot. Interviewer: “And do you remember any of the other men in the crew?” Well I worked most closely with the Navigator, Don Julan. Back and forth, we kept marks on each other: I knew where he was and he knew how much gas I had. So if one of us is hit, the other had the basic information. In fact I kept in touch with him till well after the war. Interviewer: “All right. And did you have much of a sense of how the larger war was going? Did you think this was gonna go on forever or did you think sooner or later the Japanese had to give up?” (26:40) Well they would have had to, but thank God they didn’t have to. When we’re flying and when [unintelligible] we took fire paper and started burning the rice fields just before harvest. What were you gonna do if the paddies burned all their rice? What would you do? How would you have fed them? Thank goodness we didn’t, we finally had succeeded. Interviewer: “So burning the rice fields, is that the next thing you would have done?” That would have been the next—yeah. In fact our plan was already [unintelligible], the day before they scrubbed it. Interviewer: “Okay. So it sounds like you were still flying until the end of the war, and they didn’t stop you after… Did you get to 35 missions and then August or right at the end of the war? Or had they already stopped you from flying?” What day did I got my 35th… it was in the summer some time. �Erickson, Stanley Interviewer: “Yup. Cause you were talking about what the next mission was going to be, and that was sounding like you were still gonna fly.” Well we were. At that point we were still flying. Interviewer: “Okay. Alright, and do you remember hearing about the atomic bomb?” Oh yeah. Oh yeah, very much so. Very much, I knew. Interviewer: “And when that news came did you know what it meant? What it meant? Interviewer: “Yeah.” Oh yeah, yeah. Definitely. (28:30) Interviewer: “Did you think that was gonna end the war?” No. Interviewer: “It was just a bigger bomb.” It was just a bigger bomb, the Japanese would just fight harder. Interviewer: “But instead the Japanese surrendered.” Yeah. Interviewer: “All right. Do you remember when the news came about the Japanese surrendering?” �Erickson, Stanley Oh yeah. Interviewer: “And what kind of reaction was there on Saipan?” Well first of all, the other way, that means starving just as many Japs. There’s no way to feed them. Interviewer: “Okay but I guess I was asking once the Japanese did surrender then what was the reaction where you were, when you learned that news?” It was about time. Interviewer: “And how long did you stay on Saipan after the Japanese surrendered?” I don’t even remember the dates now. Yes, quite awhile, but I don’t remember the time. (30:25) Interviewer: “Okay, so you were just kinda stuck there and did they fly any of the B-29s up to Japan after the war was over for transport or anything else?” Oh we used them for transport yeah. Interviewer: “Okay and so did you fly to Japan yourself or no?” No. I’d been there enough. Interviewer: “Okay. All right, now at this point did you plan to stay in the military after the war or were you gonna go back home to civilian life?” No, I was gonna get out. Interesting, one Commander—[unintelligible] was well gosh the military life is pretty nice, when I get back home I’ll stay in the service. Let me tell you �Erickson, Stanley something: I wear a star here to run this place, but here on my uniform are two stripes. That’s my permanent rank when I go back: Officer. I start there. So, everybody’s on call. Nobody’s—I don’t think anybody’s [unintelligible] to say that. Interviewer: “Okay. So after the war what did you do? You come home and then what? Did you go back to Chicago or did you go somewhere else?” No I came back to Chicago, built a little basement apartment, built in return for a two-years rent so. Interviewer: “Okay.” (32:14) I got nothing else to do, so I’ll do that. I’ve been going to the North Park college in the neighborhood so I went back there for a while, then I went to Northwestern. Interviewer: “And what did you study at Northwestern?” Automatic control it was basically. Interviewer: “Okay, so kinda electrical engineering sorts of things?” Oh yeah, yeah. Interviewer: “Okay. All right and then did you go get a job in that field?” Yes. So I went out to work for Honeywell. Had some interesting projects for them. Interviewer: “Now did you stay in the International Guard at that time, or did you join the International Guard?” Why did I join that? �Erickson, Stanley Interviewer: “Had you been in the Reserves when you got out?” I served—I was in France and National Guard. Interviewer: “Right. I guess the question was—” When I came back from there I was separated from the National Guard temporarily. Interviewer: “Okay. So I guess, I think earlier before we started running camera you told me that you joined the International Guard because you didn’t want to go to Korea.” That’s right. (33:54) Interviewer: “So the Korean war started and you were afraid you were gonna be called back? Oh yeah, definitely. We couldn’t retire cause they wouldn’t accept our resignation, wouldn’t do anything. Interviewer: “Okay. So you still had a Reserve commission at that point?” Yeah. Interviewer: “Okay, there we go. So you’re still officially a Reserve Officer, they can call you if they want you.” That’s right. Interviewer: “And so you join the International Guard to get around that.” �Erickson, Stanley That’s right. Interviewer: “Okay. So tell me about France: what were you doing in France?” Locating dependent housing. Not an obvious career for that but that was something they needed, so I did that for quite awhile. Interviewer: “Okay.” Only there wasn’t any housing, that was the trouble. And you’d relocate—you had access to three or four places but they were from backyard farm houses to basement apartments in the city and… you tell the guys in advance, and note to the web, “This is all we’ve got, there ain’t any more.” Well they didn’t believe it, they came over anyways and went “Well, where’s the housing?” There it is. I didn’t like that too well. They were led to believe they were gonna get more than they got, or they convinced themselves that they were gonna get more. (35:30) Interviewer: “Do you remember how long you spent doing that? Was that just a year or?” About a year. Interviewer: “Okay.” Oh and the other thing was buying nails. Everywhere I went, every time we went to a hardware store we bought all the nails they had. For some reason Americans couldn’t make nails, and you needed nails. Well… goodbye. Ten kilos here, five kilos there, what the price? Doesn’t matter? Give us nails, papers, whatever you’ve got. They’re pricey where we’re from! Interviewer: “Were you doing that in France?” Yeah. �Erickson, Stanley Interviewer: “Okay. All right, I guess we were building a lot of things there and didn’t have enough supplies.” Right. Interviewer: “All right. So when you got back from France did you get out of the International Guard or did you stay in for a while?” I stayed in for a while. (36:52) Interviewer: “All right. Now if you think back to the time that you spent in the service, are there other stories or other memories that you’ve got that you haven’t talked about yet?” …No, not really. Interviewer: “Okay. You’ll remember after I finish.” Oh yeah, no, I’ll think over it. Interviewer: “Yeah.” Ask me an hour from now. Interviewer: “Okay, Well that’s sort of how this works. But in the meantime you actually have given us some pretty interesting material so I’d like to thank you for taking the time to share this story today.” � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context EricksonS2163V Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Erickson, Stanley Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-10 Title A name given to the resource Erickson, Stanley (Interview transcript and video), 2017 Description An account of the resource Stanley Erickson was born in Harris, Minnesota in 1919 and after high school worked his way through college as a painter in Chicago. Erickson was drafted into active duty in 1943 and went to Boca Raton, Florida for basic training and then went to a tech school in New Haven, Connecticut, where he trained to be an aircraft mechanic and was commissioned to be a flight engineering officer. After tech school, Erickson went to the Boeing School in Seattle where he learned to work on B-29s before briefly being sent to Kansas to continue his training. In 1945 Erickson left for Saipan, Japan and flew 35 missions while he was there, lasting until the end of the war. After the war Erickson joined the International Guard and served in France for a year before returning to Chicago to attend Northwestern and study and work in automatic control. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Lest We Forget Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States—History, Military Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975—Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3d9628fe874e544f1e6f0158202d3843.pdf bfa88cd7910e0cf4b9901966f053c94e PDF Text Text I / REMEMBERANCE SERVICE II NATIONAL HOLOCAUST DAY" IN CONGREGATION AHAVAS ISRAEL, GRAND RAPIDS, MICHIGAN on APRIL 10, 1983. "Rabbi Lewis, Rabbi Weingarten, Distinguished Guests, Friends: First of all I want to thank the Men's Club of the Congregation of Ahavas Israel for inviting our group of Dutch people, to be here with you on National Holocaust Day. I speak for all of us, when I say that we are very honored and deeply touched, that so long after the war, you Friends here in a country far away from where we helped our Jewish friends, asked us to share this with you. Personally I am deeply moved by your Cantor, remembering my fiancee Hein Sietsma and his friend, Albert van Meerveld, the leaders of my group, who gave their lives in Dachau and Oranienburg. Holocaust Day. A day, which for all of us brings painful memories, which maybe we rather would forget and block from our memories. But, how much it hurts, this may NEVER be forgotten and we,who lived during that time)HAVE to tell it, especially to the younger generation, so that it will never happen again, but on this my friend Pieter Termaat will speak. I want to say a few words on "Why we did it". Although our group only mtt each other recently in Washington, I know that we all helped for the same reason. Rabbi Si gal wrote recently his fine article in the Press on the Pasover_ ., and he wrote: 11 The call of theology is for ACTION. Then he mentioned some parts of the beautiful book of Isaiah, and also a verse from the New Testament book of John, which reads: 11 If you say you know Him and do not obey His commandments, you are a liar. 11 • That is s6 true and we have to keep this in mind, for many horrible things are done in the name of religion and Christianity. After all, we know that Hitler himself was a so~called Catholic. He surely did not obey God's commandments and therefore he had no right to use that Name. We were also taught the Old Testament: God's love for the people He chose from -2- �2) among all the nations on earth, His covenant with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. In Genesis God says to Abraham:" I will bless those who bless you and whoever curses you will be cursed and all the peoples on earth will be blessed through you". We as Christians take this, that we are blessed through the Jewish people. They gave us so much, as w~ believe : Jesus~and also through the Jewish people we have ~ God's pr-ecious Word, which was our only strength during that horrible time. Therefore, when the war broke out, and believing all this, we just HAD to help. We said we knew Him and wanted to obey His commandments, which are:"Love thy God and they neighbor as thyself . II __ When Hitler started his unspeakable cruelty and the Jews had to r-eport for an unknown fate, with just one little suitcase, we were shocked. We did not yet kn6w what would happen to them. Many believed that it would not be all that bad, but those among us who had their eyes open, recognized the terrible evil and danger of the Nazi teachings and among those were my friends Hein and Albert. They started right away with whatever they could do. Soon I found out how it is, when you need a hiding place and you cannot find one: Six months after the German invasion, the Gestapo came already to arrest Hein, who, thank God, was not home. He was warned, phoned my parents house to warn us, for most probably, the Gestapo would come there also for him, but, we had to find a place for Hein before the 11 p.m. curfew. I was born and raised in the Hague, we had so many wonderful Christian friends there, so~confidently I hopped on my bike and started around 6 p.m . I remember how after hours and hours of asking everywhere, without results, with tears streaming down my cheeks there on my bike, I prayed, that God would provide a place for Hein , and I made then and there a vow, that if I ever could help people in the same circumstances, I would do whatever I could. And ... as a young girl, I was quite disap- pointed in my Christi'an friends who showed such a weak faith. I found a place just before 11 p.m. -3- �3) A year later, when Hitler ordered the Jews to report for 11 relocation 11 , I remembered my vow. We found a place on a farm for a young Jewish friend of ours and two weeks later we had a list of 60 of his relatives and friends, and the list grew and grew, till far past hundred. I am sure that my friends here in a similar way became involved. For the Christians, helping with this work>the Psalms of David became so very precious:" The Lord is my Light and my Salvation, Whom shall I fear?" We had to remind ours~lves of this, for often we were scared! After thr~e years, we were betrayed, the Gestapo came to my parents house and they knisw that we knew about the monthly attaches on German offices, where every month thousands of ration cards and blank identifi~ation cards were stolen. They wanted us. It was very serio~s and the Gestapo kept on coming to my parents house every 2-3 weeks till the end of the war, but of course we never went home again! We had to take false names, false papers. We had our wedding l ic.ense and my wedding dress was hanging in the closet, but we could not get married for the Gestapo kept their eyes on our families . . My work was to take care of all our Jewish friends in a certain part of the country: bring them mail, rat.ion cards and, when an address was in danger, to find a new place and bring them there. I walked and biked from village to village and often felt like David, when King Saul was after him.David wrote many psalms during that time and they became so alive to me! Like Tevye, in,,Fiddler on the Roof: I often had conversations with God during my walks and reminded Him of His promises: How wf break all ours, but that He never can break His, for He is holy! A year later the Gestapo caught Hein first and 2 weeks later me for unrelated ) things. While they had me in their claws on my false name, they were still searching for me on my real name at home! -4- �I was terrible scared that they would find out whom I really was and that they fi/ nally had me. That would have been the end of me. And then I thought of the beautiful story in the book of Kings, where the prophet Elisha prayed, when the enemy army of the king of Aram came to arrest him: 11 God blind their eyes", and God DID. I prayed and said daily:" Lord, You are the same from eternity, please do for me now, what You did thousands of years ago for Elisha, blind their eyes", and God DID. I dreaded the hearing, which I knew would surely come and thought that I would be paralized with fear. In prison I had scraped in the bricks of the wall with my bobby pin the words of Jesus: 11 Lo, -I am with you, al ways 11 • And when I was ca 11 ed and brought before 7 clean, well-fed Gestapo officers behind a large table, playing with their revolvers to intimidate me, instead of being scared,a great calm came over me and I remembered the words of David's Psalm:" If God had not been on our side, says Israel, they would have swallowed us alive". I KNEW He was on our side and what could these men, who thought that they had my fate in their hands then really do? I knew I was in His Fatherhand! Although I am fluent in German, I also had said when they invadedJthat I never would speak Gennan, till they had left our country, and during all these months, everything they said to me had to be translated. For I shrugged my shoulders, looked stupid and said that I could not understand them. During the hearing, although there was an interpreter, I understood every word they said. When, among other questions, they asked my religion and I told them "Christian Reformed" one of them said:" Schon wieder einde von diesen!" He said it really with contempt and scorn, but it made me s6 I happy for then I knew that in this camp there had to be many who were faithful and obeyed the Master. A miracle happened. I was let out a few days before this whole camp was brought . to RavensbrUck, where many died. You know now why we did it, and also, that all of us would do it again. we HAD to -5- �5) Would I like to have missed this part of my life? Although very difficult, I would NOT have missed it, because I KNOW now from experience that God keeps all His promises. He has never promised His people an easy life, but He HAS promised, as to Isaiah: 11 I will take you by the hand'~ And he DID. Many people feel, when difficulties and problems come, that it is a kind of punishment and say: 11 What have I done to deserve this? 11 My life has not been easy, but I like to think of God ·'s dear friend Job. Satan said to God: 11 No wonder he serves You, he has everything he can wish for, but wait and see what happens if you take everything - I away from him 11 • God was so sure of Job, that He allowed Satan to go ahead. Job lost everything, his 10 children in one day, everything he had, even his health, and we know what Job · said: ,The Lord has given, the Lord had taken, blessed be the name of the Lord". I have spoken for us who survived, that we never regret it and knew, we did the right thing. What about those who, after much suffering gave their lives? My friend Albert smuggled some notes to his young wife and in his last one he wrote: 11 Remember Psalm 71, verse 3. Which reads: 11 Be Thou to me a Rock of refuge, a strong Fortress to save me, for Thou art my Rock and Fortress 11 • And Hein? I knew he would never regret what he did, but I received a little note, written in pencil on a piece of toiletpaper which we sometimes got in the camps from the Red Cross. He threw it from the train when he was brought to Germany. It was his farewell note to me and he wrote in it: 11 Be courageous. Even if we would not see each other again here on earth, we will NEVER regret what we did .... 11 And, when after the war the most difficult time came .. of waiting who would come back, and week after week the Red Cross notices came: Dries was killed, Bouwe was killed, Aryen was not coming back, Piet was dead, Gerk was killed, Driek would not be back, Jan was killed and also Hein and Albert would never come back .... I did not want to live anymore! Why had I come through? For what??? -6- �- .. • 6..) I felt, like I was falling into a deep, black bottomless pit, without end ... And then I heard a sermon s6 beautiful on what Moses said to the tribe of Asher before he climbed mount Nebo to die~ "The eternal God is your refuge and underneath are the EVERLASTING ARMS". These strong arms caught me. I want to end with another verse of a Psalm of David, that all of us survivors can say:" Praise the Lord o my soul, and forget not one of His benefits". Berendina R.H. Erlich 2610 Raymond Ave. S.E. Grand Rapids, Mich . 49507 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Adriana B. and Peter N. Termaat collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Termaat, Adriana B. (Schuurman) Termaat, Peter N. Description An account of the resource Collection contains genealogical, personal, and family papers and photographs documenting the lives and interests of Adriana and Peter Termaat. The bulk of the materials are related to family history and genealogical research carried out by the Termaats, including research notes and materials about places in the Netherlands that were significant to the Termaat and Schuurman families, such as the city of Alkmaar. Other materials in the collection are related to the Termaats' experiences on the eve of and during the Second World War, especially the German occupation of the Netherlands and the Termaats' participation in organized resistance to the Nazis. Also included are materials that document the family's post-war life in the United States, including their public efforts to recognize, commemorate, and honor people and events significant to World War II. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1869 - 2012 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/719">Adriana B. and Peter N. Termaat collection, RHC-144</a> Subject The topic of the resource Netherlands Netherlands--History--German occupation, 1940-1945 World War, 1939-1945 World War, 1939-1945 -- Underground movements -- Netherlands Dutch Dutch Americans Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-144 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Text Image Type The nature or genre of the resource application/pdf image/jpeg Language A language of the resource eng nl Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-144_Termaat_WRI_1983-04-10-Speech-Erlich-at-Ahvas-Isreaal-347 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Erlich, Berendina R. H. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1983-04-10 Title A name given to the resource Remembrance Service Address Description An account of the resource Address delivered by Berendina Erlich at the Remembrance Service on National Holocaust day in Congregation Ahavas Israel, Grand Rapids, Michigan on April 10, 1983 Subject The topic of the resource Holocaust Remembrance Day Holocaust, Jewish (1939-1945) Holocaust survivors Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/719">Adriana B. and Peter N. Termaat collection (RHC-144)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4b88c542402d60388e0a406683e751cc.mp4 04f1b21100bcb77f6b26fa0d1221d4fa https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/0993a6ac77f7e63d735467a5dea01bd6.pdf d19651d821bf8ea10c27f63896057b27 PDF Text Text 1 Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: Vern Erskine Interviewed by James Smither Transcribed by Grace Balog Interviewer: We are talking today with Vern Erskine of Moran, Michigan, and the interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project. Okay, Vern, start us off with some background on yourself. And to begin with, where and when were you born? Veteran: I was born in Allenville, Michigan in 1921. Interviewer: Alright. And what part of Michigan is that? Veteran: The southern Upper Peninsula. Interviewer: Okay, so the Upper Peninsula. You are up in the UP. Okay. Now, did you grow up there? Veteran: I grew up there except for the time I spent in the service. Interviewer: Alright. And what was your family doing for a living when you were a kid? Veteran: Farming. Interviewer: Okay. And what were you farming up here? Veteran: Oh, potatoes, all kinds of grain. �2 Interviewer: Okay. And did your family own the farm? Veteran: Yes. Interviewer: And were you able to keep it during the Depression? Veteran: Yes. Yes, yes, yes. Interviewer: Okay. Did things get difficult for a while in the ‘30s? Veteran: Yes. In the 1930s, it was very difficult. Interviewer: Okay. Now, and how many kids were in your family? Veteran: Four boys and a girl. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. And were—and where were you in line? Were you— Veteran: I was the second. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. And so, and how long did you go to school? Did you go through 8th grade or through high school? Veteran: Oh, I went through the 12th grade. Interviewer: Okay. And where were you going to high school? Veteran: In St. Ignace, Michigan. Interviewer: Okay. And how long did it take you to get to school? Veteran: Oh, in the morning, well, it would take about ¾ of an hour I’d say to drive. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. And was that a problem in the winter? Veteran: Yes. Yes. �3 Interviewer: Okay. Now, did they—would they close school if it was really bad or…? Veteran: Oh, they had their snow days same as they have today. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. Now, do you remember how you heard about Pearl Harbor? (00:02:22) Veteran: Yes. On the radio. Interviewer: Okay. Was that at home? Veteran: At home, yes. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. And before Pearl Harbor happened, and because now you are—you are about 20 years old when that happens. Let’s see—had you been working by then? I mean, were you still living at home? Veteran: Gee… Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: I was living at home I know but I… Interviewer: Okay. Well, were you working on the farm? Veteran: On the farm, yes. I think I had a part time in a garage gas station, just… Interviewer: Okay. Alright. Now, before Pearl Harbor happened, did you pay very much attention to the news? About the war that was already going on? Veteran: Oh yes. Yes. �4 Interviewer: Okay. And did you expect that at some point, we might get into it? Veteran: Not at that time. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. So, Pearl Harbor was something of a surprise then. Veteran: Yes. Interviewer: Alright. And then, after that happened, did you want to go enlist? Or did you get a deferment? Or what did you do? Or did you just wait for Uncle Sam to call you? Veteran: I waited for Uncle Sam to call. Interviewer: Alright. And so, so you—when did you get your draft notice? Veteran: Gee, I don’t know. Interviewer: Okay. Well, I guess you were—I think you signed papers on—like in September of ’42 and then reported to training a little bit after that? Because that’s what your— Veteran: I believe I did. Interviewer: Okay. So, fall of 1942 basically is when you go in. Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: Alright. Veteran: Yeah. �5 Interviewer: Okay. And now, once—and where is the first place that you report to? Did they say you have to go here? Veteran: Camp Grant. Interviewer: Camp Grant, that’s in Illinois. (00:04:19) Veteran: Yep. Interviewer: Okay. And then how did you get down to Camp Grant? Veteran: Oh, we dragged Daddy’s [?] to Marquette. We went to Marquette. That’s the first place we were inducted. Interviewer Okay. Right. Okay. And then— Veteran: And then we went to Camp Grant. Interviewer: Okay. And could you take a train from there? Veteran: Train, yes. Interviewer: Alright. And then, was Camp Grant just processing? Veteran: Yes. Yes. Interviewer: Okay. And so, where did they send you for basic training? Veteran: Camp Livingston. Interviewer: Okay, and where is that? �6 Veteran: Louisiana. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: Close to Shreveport. Interviewer: Alright. Camp Livingston. Louisiana. Alright. And then how did they get you from Camp Grant down to Camp Livingston? Was that another train ride? Veteran: Gee, Camp Grant…Yes, it was. I remember that. Yep. Interviewer: Okay. Did you remember about how long it took to get from Illinois to Louisiana on a train? Veteran: Gee, I know it was a long time. Everybody was very uneasy from being on the train so long. Interviewer: Alright. So, would they let you off the train at all? Veteran: I don’t remember them letting me off the train. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. And then, did they just have you sitting in the regular seats? Or were there bunks that you could sleep in? Veteran: No, just regular seats. Interviewer: Okay. And so, it’s a whole bunch of new inductees being sent off to train together? Veteran: Right. �7 Interviewer: Okay. And then, when you get to Camp Livingston, then what happens? Veteran: Well, of course we went to the headquarters and—where everybody was interviewed. And they kind of chose people for the infantry and for artillery and the engineers. The artillery IQ kind of decided whether they would go in the infantry or artillery. And I had a pretty high IQ, so I went in the artillery. Interviewer: Okay. And were you perfectly happy to do that? (00:06:44) Veteran: After I was there, well, seeing what the infantry was doing, I was very happy. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. Now, describe a little bit the kind of training that you got there. I mean, what were the first few weeks like? Veteran: The first few weeks was close order drill. Forward marching, learning the orders and signals of the Army. Interviewer: Okay. And was there a lot of emphasis on discipline? Veteran: Oh yes. Yes, very much. Interviewer: What would happen if you messed up? Veteran: Go on KP. Interviewer: Okay. And what was KP? Veteran: Kitchen Police. Interviewer: Alright. So…? �8 Veteran: Clean up. Interviewer: So, you are washing pots and dishes and— Veteran: Yep, washing pots and dishes and pans. Interviewer: Alright. And…I guess, how easy or hard was it for you to adjust to being in the Army? Veteran: You know, I was quite young. And not too much experience. And it didn’t bother me much. Interviewer: Okay. So— Veteran: And more or less was something new to me and I kind of liked it. Interviewer: Okay. Alright, so just sort of a new adventure and so you—so, did you just— would you just do what they told you to do? (00:08:21) Veteran: Right. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. And now what—when you got there, were you already training to become part of a unit? Or, I mean, were they forming a division there then? Veteran: Oh no, it was completely… Interviewer: Was just general at that point. Veteran: Yeah. �9 Interviewer: Okay. And then, how long did that first part of training take? Just sort of the basic training part. Veteran: Six weeks. Interviewer: Okay. And once you finished that, then did you get assigned to a— Veteran: I got assigned to—got assigned to the artillery. I did. Interviewer: Okay, now at that— Veteran: Before that time, we were with the infantry. Interviewer: Right. So, everybody gets the same training to start with and it’s— Veteran: Oh yeah. Interviewer: Now, with that infantry training, were you firing weapons and things like that? Veteran: Oh yes. Yes. Interviewer: Okay. And do you remember what kinds of weapons you trained on? Just the rifle or did you get a different— Veteran: Yeah, we had the old-fashioned rifle. Interviewer: Oh, like the old 303s. The World War 1 rifles? Veteran: Yeah. �10 Interviewer: Yeah. Okay. So, you had the C—you didn’t even have the M-1 yet? Veteran: We got the M-1 when we were at Livingston. Interviewer: Okay. So, you get that eventually but okay. So, you do that kind of thing. Now, when you are assigned to the artillery, did you have an artillery training that you had to go through? Or did you just go into a unit and start doing your job? Veteran: No, no. We trained. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: They had so many hours a day that they had to train me. Attend classes and… Interviewer: Okay. Now this is—there are a number of different jobs in the artillery. What kind of work were you trained for? Was it still—was it firing in the artillery or were you doing support? (00:10:10) Veteran: Firing. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And…Yeah, it would be firing and taking commands on—like they had—they called in ratio deflection when they knew that you had a change in direction. They’d tell you altitude when you knew you were changing the altitude. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: And… �11 Interviewer: Okay. So, you are learning to adjust the gun to fire at different distances and that kind of thing. And did they teach you anything about the calculations to make? Or just how to operate the gun itself? Veteran: Oh no, no. You had to work on the sight. And they had classes on that, working the sight. Interviewer: Okay. And— Veteran: And also, they had an aiming circle. That was the main tool of the artillery was the aiming circle. Interviewer: And can you explain what that was? Veteran: It was an instrument similar to the sight on the gun. And the sight and the aiming circle had to be calibrated to each other, so they had both the same reading. And that way they got the direction of fire. Interviewer: Okay. Now, do you remember what kind of gun you were training on? Veteran: Oh yes, 105-millimeter Howitzer. Interviewer: Okay, so that’s the main artillery weapon really for most units that we had then. Okay. Now, was it a reasonably new weapon? I mean, it— Veteran: Yes, I say yes. Interviewer: Okay. So, it wasn’t leftover from World War 1 or anything like that. Veteran: Oh no, no, no. �12 Interviewer: Okay good. Alright, so you have got basically the kind of weapon that you will use in combat eventually. Veteran: Right. (00:12:19) Interviewer: Okay. Now, you started your training at Camp Livingston. Did you do all of your training there? Or did you move someplace else? Veteran: No, we’d take trips to different places. And where there was a firing range, we’d practice firing on the range. And even when we—when we were in the United States yet, we done that. And done the same thing when we were in Porthgain, in Wales. We whipped up a little firing range that was called Singing Bridge and we’d practice firing there. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. But those firing ranges were still kind of in the general area around your base? Veteran: Yes, yes. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: In driving distance, you know. Interviewer: Alright. Now, at what point do you join officially a unit? What division do you join and when do you join them? Veteran: I joined that artillery 107th Field Artillery, Battery B. Interviewer: Okay. And what division were they part of? Veteran: They were battery B of the 107th field artillery battalion. �13 Interviewer: Well, yeah, well that’s a—it would probably be 1st Battalion, 101st Regiment. [He was right the first time. The 107th Field Artillery Battalion was part of the 28th Division] Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: But then that regiment—was that attached to a division? Veteran: The 28th Division. Interviewer: 28th Division. Okay. Just wanted you to say that on camera for me. Good. Okay, so you are with the 28th infantry division. And so, was that forming at Camp Livingston? And so, they are bringing all the men in there and all the regiments and training them all there? Veteran: Yeah, the whole division was there. Interviewer: Okay. Now, you mentioned going different places for firing ranges. Did the division go on any big field exercises? Like would they do maneuvers some place with other divisions? (00:14:27) Veteran: Oh yes. Yes, yes. Interviewer: And do you remember anything about doing that? Like where you went or how long it took or what you were doing? Veteran: Well, when we were in Livingston, we made a trip to Georgia and another one to Virginia. And there was other numerous places that we went. �14 Interviewer: Okay. Alright. So, you got around quite a bit because the Army was staging large maneuvers and trying to get ready to—fighting for real. So, you were doing some of that. Okay, now you were—and so, how long do you think did you stay at Camp Livingston? Or when did you ship out? Okay, because your discharge papers say you shipped out in October of ’43 so you’d have been at Livingston for about a year? Except for the side trips. Veteran: Yeah, a good year we would have been there. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. Now, during that year when you are living in Louisiana, could you go off the base at all? Veteran: Oh yes. Yes. Interviewer: Alright. And where would you go? Veteran: I went on furlough once to Washington D.C. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And I come home furlough one time, for a few days. For 10 days. Interviewer: Okay. And I guess and so basically were you able to travel on trains for free? Or did you have to pay your own fare? (00:16:24) Veteran: No, you had to pay your fare. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. Now, would you ever go into town near the base? Would you go into Alexandria or whatever else was nearby? �15 Veteran: Oh yes. Yes. Interviewer: Okay. And what was there to do there? Veteran: There was stores. A lot of nice stores, Army stores and photography shops. Now, that’s where I got these pictures taken was at Alexandria. Interviewer: Okay. So, you actually had your own portrait made of yourself in uniform at that point. Veteran: Yes. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. Now, did some of the guys go there to go to bars or go to movies or things like that? Veteran: Oh yes, yes. Interviewer: Alright. Yeah, so and would there ever be problems in town with guys getting drunk or having fights? Veteran: Oh yes. Yes, they had—their MPs were on duty all the time. Interviewer: Okay. Now, did you ever get in trouble? Or were you a good guy? Veteran: I was a pretty good guy, I guess. Interviewer: Okay. Yeah, you know that’s a question you don’t have to answer if you don’t want to. But okay. Alright. So, that kind of thing is going on. And now during that year when you are in Louisiana, are you following the news of the war and paying attention to what’s happening in the Pacific and in North Africa and stuff like that? �16 Veteran: Oh yes. We had the Stars and Stripes. And that kept us informed on how the war was going. Interviewer: Okay. And you were there for a year. Did you start to wonder if the war was going to be over before you got into it? Or…? Veteran: Oh no, no. Interviewer: Okay. So, it was still serious business. Okay. Now, we get to the fall off 1943. And now you are going to head over across the Atlantic. And did you get to go home first or did you just all leave together from Camp Livingston? Or…? (00:18:31) Veteran: No, no we didn’t go home. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: Only had the one furlough. Interviewer: Right. Okay. So, you assemble at Camp Livingston. And then what’s the process for getting you over to Britain? Veteran: Well, they…I remember we crossed the Atlantic. Interviewer: Okay. And what port did you leave from? Did you go out of New York or Norfolk or New Orleans? Or where did you go from? Veteran: Gee, I can’t remember that right now. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. Was it some place you hadn’t been before? �17 Veteran: No, no we had been there before. Interviewer: Okay. So, you might have gone to Virginia and gone out that way. Now, did you—what kind of ship were you sailing in? Veteran: It was…Oh, the ships were built for the war. They called them… Interviewer: Like the Victory ships or…? Veteran: Yes. Interviewer: Yeah, so okay. So, you were not going on a converted ocean liner or something like that. Veteran: No, no, no. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: We had a troop ship. Interviewer: A troop ship, okay. And then did you sail on a convoy? Veteran: Yes. Interviewer: Okay. And what was the weather like when you were sailing across the Atlantic? Veteran: Some days it was pretty rocky. I can remember one day it was pretty bad, and everybody got seasick. It was all a terrible mess. Interviewer: Now, did you seasick? (00:20:22) �18 Veteran: No, I did not. Interviewer: Okay. Now, how did you avoid that? Veteran: I don’t know. It was just my mind; I didn’t get sick. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. And did—you remember—do you know—you were in a convoy, so could you see the other ships when you were out on deck? Veteran: Oh yes. Yes. Interviewer: Alright. And were there any U boat scares? Veteran: Yes. Yes. They—numerous times, they had a destroyer as the escort. And the destroyer would drop depth bombs [charges]. And we could hear them going off and vibrating all night on our ship. Interviewer: Right. Okay. Do you know if any of the ships in your convoy got hit? Veteran: No, but one day we were—I am up on the top deck, and I am watching and all at once the gun crew went into action. And they manned their gun and started firing. And looked to the rear where they were firing and there’s a periscope sticking out of the water. Interviewer: Oh. Veteran: So, we fired on that periscope and riflemen were firing on it too and they never bombed us, never torpedoed us. So, we must have done something to the—to their periscope. Interviewer: Yeah, or they didn’t—they realized once they were spotted, they shouldn’t stay there. �19 Veteran: Right. Interviewer: Yeah, something. Okay. Now, that’s a little bit unusual. Most guys do not have that happen to them. So, alright. About how long did the trip across the Atlantic take do you think? Was it two weeks? (00:22:13) Veteran: 12 days. Interviewer: 12 days. Okay. That’s about right for a slower convoy. And then where did you land? What part of Britain did you land in? Veteran: It wasn’t…Gee… Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: I really can’t remember where we landed. It has gone from my mind. Interviewer: Okay. Well, some people landed in Scotland and some of them landed at Liverpool. You could have gone to Bristol, I suppose. Veteran: I think if I am not mistaken now, I recall Liverpool. Interviewer: Okay. Yeah, because that was on the west side so that’s a good place to land. Okay. And then from there did they move you down to Wales? Veteran: Yes. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: Yes. �20 Interviewer: Alright. And so no you get there. It is sort of late fall in 1943. Now did you stay there until it was time—in Wales—until it was time to ship over to France? Did you mostly do your training there? Veteran: Yes. Yes, except side trips we’d make. Interviewer: Right. Okay. Veteran: Like I said before, we went up to see the [London] bridge and different towns. Interviewer: Okay. Now did you ever go to London? Veteran: Yes. Interviewer: Okay, and so what was that like? Veteran: Very different. The people were all nice to us and everything, but they had a different way of living and that was very honorable that you could pick out the way they were living. Interviewer: Okay. Now, you were not— Veteran: The one thing—well, one thing they…they didn’t have bathrooms. All they had was a curtain hanging up and everybody would run to that bathroom, and it would just be running down the curb. And I couldn’t get over that because… Interviewer: Okay. You must not have been in the right neighborhood. But yeah, okay. But yeah, living in a city with all of those people and stuff, that was not what you were used to. Okay. Now, when you went to London, were there air raid scares? I mean, did the sirens go off? (00:24:38) �21 Veteran: Yes. Yes. Interviewer: Okay, and what did you do when that happened? Veteran: There wasn’t much we could do because London is a vast area. And we just would keep our heads low and… Interviewer: Okay. So, you didn’t go down into the subway system or underground or anything like that. Veteran: No. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. Now, what was the area like in Wales around your base? What was that country like? Veteran: Sandy. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: A lot of sand everywhere. And in front of the hotel where we stayed in Porthgain was this—what they called the Esplanade. And it was solid concrete and they—all their—the doings of the city was held in that Esplanade. Well, we’d gather there when they had a formation. Well, they’d all let them out, you know, in formation. And we had to gather on the Esplanade. And you can imagine about 4 or 500 lined up on that Esplanade. Everybody had to cough and spit and it was a mess. Interviewer: Okay. �22 Veteran: And the city officials were complaining about it. And they tried to overcome them, you know, to refrain them. It didn’t do much good. Interviewer: Oh well. Alright now could you go into town kind of individually and in small groups and, you know, go to the pubs or…? (00:26:42) Veteran: Oh yes, yes. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. And how did the people in the community treat you? Veteran: Very good. Very good. They were nice to us. Interviewer: Yeah. Alright. Now, did some of the guys there have girlfriends? Veteran: Oh yes. Always. Interviewer: Okay. I suppose there weren’t that many British men around. At least not young ones. Veteran: Maybe I’ve got one story I could tell you. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. Veteran: From Porthgain, all the men that were a draftable age or Army age were shipped to India. And there was no men in the households. So, I won’t mention these guys names but this one guy, he took up with this woman and she had a bunch of kids but very little place to sleep. So, she went and made him a bed in the bathtub. And, of course, one of the—during the night, one of the kids had to get up and go to the bathroom. Well, they pee in the bathtub. Interviewer: Oh. �23 Veteran: And they really, really soaked him up. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: Now, he deserved it though I bet. Interviewer: Yeah, well he would have been better off back at the base at that point. Okay. Alright. So, you were there. Now, do you remember hearing about the D-Day landings? (00:28:24) Veteran: About the what? Interviewer: D-Day. When D-Day happened, what do you remember about that? And did that get announced, “Okay, we have landed in France now,” or…? Veteran: Oh yes. Yes, yes. But what I remember more than anything was the armada of airplanes that went over to bomb the beaches in France. And oh, there was all kinds of bombs. Just wave after wave of these bombers. And they were gone for a while and then they started coming back. And you could tell they had been in battle. Some of the wings were just flopping and the fabric was flopping away. Some of them didn’t have no but one engine running. It was a terrible sight when they come back. But they done a lot of good. Interviewer: Alright. And they also took the paratroopers over and gliders and all that too. Now, were you still in Wales at that point? Veteran: Yes. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. Now, do you have an idea or a general sense of how long it was before you went over to France? �24 Veteran: 12 days after D-Day. [The 28th Division landed on July 22, over a month later] Interviewer: Okay. So, you landed at D+12. Alright. And then how do they get you across the Channel? Veteran: Landing ship tank. Interviewer: Okay, so you were on an LST. Veteran: Right. Interviewer: Alright. And did you have any trouble going over? (00:30:14) Veteran: Not a bit. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. And then what happens when you got to France? So, the ship pulls up— Veteran: Well, when we got close to France’s beach there, Omaha Beach, well…wreckage started showing up. And I know I couldn’t count all the bodies that were floating. Interviewer: Okay, so there are still bodies floating out there offshore 12 days later. Okay. Veteran: And the—they were recovering them, trying to recover them. But oh, it was a busy place at Omaha Beach. There was a steady stream of LCIs landing craft running back and forth to the ships, unloading the ships. But these were big ocean liners that they were unloading. But when we landed, we landed right on…Why, there wasn’t a foot of water to drive through. Interviewer: Okay, but you go right onto the sand? Right onto the beach? �25 Veteran: Yeah, set the ramp down. Interviewer: Okay. And get right off. Okay. And then once you are ashore, now what happens? Veteran: Well, we are unloading and of course our colonel come along, and he said he’s inspecting, you know, and looking at different trucks. And when I was on this ship going across the Channel, I made a good acquaintance with a master in arms. Well, the master in arms is in charge of supplies. (00:32:14) Veteran: So, you go down below decks and I’d just sit there and talk to him. And he was very concerned and interested. He said, “What do you think you will be short of,” he said, “when you get in France?” And I said, “I don’t know. You tell me: what do they need?” “Well,” he said, “you will need milk, powdered milk, coffee.” So, man, he gave me coffee and sugar and powdered milk and potatoes. Powdered potatoes. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And man, I had it all on top of our truck, in between the cover. It was loaded with all kinds of stuff. Well, we are coming off the ship and the colonel there, he is there to greet us. And he lifts one part up and he says, “What do we got here? A bunch of gypsies?” And I never said nothing. I thought it was best not to say nothing. So, we had gotten a little dog when we were in Porthgain. A little pup. And of course, it was still growing by the time we got—and when he is there bawling me out for looking like a bunch of gypsies, out sticks that dog and starts to bark. And he said, “I told you to get rid of that dog.” That’s the last he said. We kept the dog for a long time until we got into Luxembourg. In the name of—it almost died there—well, the dog run away on us. (00:34:26) �26 Interviewer: Okay. Alright now, did you get to keep the food? Veteran: Oh yes. Interviewer: Okay. So, he didn’t make you unload all the stuff that you put on you truck. Veteran: Oh no, no, no. He— Interviewer: He just called you gypsies. Veteran: I gave it all to the—we did run short of that stuff. And there was no delivery over there, especially then. And so, one thing I will add to the story was that the master in arms said, “Is there anything else you want?” I said, “Well, what have you got?” He said, “Well, I will tell you what,” he said, “I got cases of chicken. Canned chicken, all white meat and…” I said, “Would you give me a case of that?” And he said, “Yes.” So, he gave me a case of that white chicken. I took that and I put I up with the rest of the stuff. One time the colonel come down and he said, “What are we having for dinner?” And he was in a better mood that day and… “What are we having for dinner?” And I said, “Well I understand,” I said, “we are having pork.” “Oh,” he said, “that’s what every other battery is having too.” He said, “I got to find something else. I am tired of that.” So, I said to him—I said, “How would you like a nice chicken dinner?” And “Oh, where are you going to get a chicken dinner?” he said. So, I got out one of them cans of that chicken. Pretty good sized can, like a number 10 can. And I said, “Here you go.” I said, “Have dinner.” He thanked me and walked away. But he said, “Where did you get that?” and I said, “Remember that day when you said we looked like a bunch of gypsies up on the boat?” I said, “Well, that was part of the gypsy.” He never said nothing. (00:36:47) �27 Interviewer: Alright. Okay. So, once you land in Normandy then, how long before your battery starts to go into action? Veteran: Well, I will tell you we—like I said, we went ashore and oh, it was busy. There were just—and then up on top, when you got on top of the hill, they had these fences all built up and there were German prisoners of war. There were just thousands of them in that—behind that barbed wire. And well, while we were there on the beach getting ready to move out, well, over comes an ME-109 Messerschmitt. Right—it looked like you could reach up and touch him. And he’s coming at high speed. And everyone thought he was going straight for them. It was nothing but a scare mission. Down low, you know. Just revs the engine. He just revs it. But it only went over the once. ME-109. Interviewer: Okay. So, a single engine fighter plane? Veteran: Yep. Interviewer: Yeah. Okay. Alright. But now did your battery—so you go up basically up the bluffs onto the regular level of the land in Normandy. Did you go very far inland, or did you set up pretty close to the shore? (00:38:24) Veteran: Well, they had taken Saint-Lo. Interviewer: Okay, well they take Saint-Lo—that’s later. Veteran: Yeah, down… Interviewer: But yeah, that’s some ways inland. Okay. �28 Veteran: Yeah. but they had taken Saint-Lo, the Americans did—had taken Saint-Lo. And we went down to Saint-Lo and there was bulldozers and tanks with bulldozer blades on, pushing junk out of the way so we could make it through. You know, this was still 12 days after. Interviewer: Well, there is—we didn’t get to Saint-Lo until latter part of July. But when Saint-Lo was taken, we carpet bombed it so there was just destruction all over the place. Veteran: Oh yes. Interviewer: And that’s what you are seeing with the bulldozers and all that. Veteran: Yeah, those bombers. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: They really made a mess there. Because Saint-Lo was really a stronghold. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: And… Interviewer: Now, did you do any fighting before you went through Saint-Lo? Or did you— Veteran: No. No, we didn’t. Interviewer: Oh, okay. Alright. Veteran: But then they took us in there. We bivouacked overnight. And I can remember getting on—there was a stream running through—right through the—where we were camped. A nice �29 little stream. Kind of fast growing. So, me being the explorer, I had to find out what was up that crick. Went up that crick about oh, maybe 100 feet or so. And there I come across 3 dead Germans. And that’s one sight that I never get out of my mind. One guy’s head was blown right off and all that was sticking up was the neckbone. And he was laying in the water. And I was thinking boy, we have been using that water. But that was one of them times of relenting. (00:40:55) Interviewer: Right. Okay. Veteran: But… Interviewer: Okay, so this is going to be kind of more like late July of ’44 when that’s happening. Veteran: Yes. Interviewer: Yeah, okay. Now did you set up and shoot from there or did you just keep moving? Veteran: No, we moved out farther. And we are getting to the hedgerow country. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: And so, they moved us into this area and that was the first time we put our guns in firing position. And we had everything all set. Camouflage nets up in hedgerows all around. And they told us if any airplanes come over, you know, not to shoot at them with a pistol or a rifle or anything because it would attract attention to them. Interviewer: Right. (00:42:06) �30 Veteran: And they would come and really work us over. Well, we spent that one night. Well, then they—the Germans, they started firing on us from higher land. We were down lower. And boy, there was—there wasn’t no guns firing. Everybody run because it’s the first battle and they were all scared, you know. And I—he done me good. We had this captain—I won’t mention the name—but he was a smart aleck, and you couldn’t talk to him or nothing. And I’ll never forget. It done me good to see him go running like a dog with a tail between his leg to the rear. All just the thought of that, him running like that, and then thinking about that—that fellow they took before the firing squad from Poland. Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: He wasn’t from—he was from America but he— Interviewer: Right. Veteran: He was Polish. Interviewer: Was that Eddie Slovik? He was the deserter who got caught. Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: And executed. I think he deserted twice or something. But yeah. Yeah, but okay. Now did the captain ever come back? Veteran: No. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: That’s the last time I ever seen him. �31 Interviewer: Okay, so you got a new captain after that? Veteran: Yep. Interviewer: Okay. Now when this happened and everyone ran away, did you guys just wait for the firing to stop and then go back? Or did someone come and make you go back to the guns? (00:44:03) Veteran: I stayed on my gun. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And I stayed right there, and I kept firing and firing. Interviewer: Did you have any orders coming into fire? Veteran: Oh yes. The firing direction was—they had protection. They weren’t under fire none. Interviewer: Yeah. Okay. But so, there were some other men—were there other men who did stay with the guns? Veteran: Oh no. No, everybody… Interviewer: Just you by yourself? Veteran: That one gun out of 4 in my battery— Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: --was the only gun there. �32 Interviewer: Alright. Now— Veteran: And I was doing all the work by myself. Everything. And it’s a good thing I had the aiming stakes out or it wouldn’t have been operable. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: Well, I kept firing. So, I am getting pretty tired and all at once I hear this voice say to me, “Do you need any help?” and already annoyed [I] thought who can that be? So, whenever I got a minute, I looked up and here was this redheaded fellow from Bowling Green, Kentucky. And he said, “Can I help you?” and I said, “Can you take care of that number one position on the gun?” “Yeah, that’s what I do in my gun,” he said. I said, “What happened to your crew?” “They are all gone,” he said. Well, him and I fired that gun. I don’t know how many rounds we fired but we had an awful pile of used ammunition anyway. Interviewer: Right. Because you have the shell casings left or the— Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: Yeah, alright. Okay. Veteran: And so, finally the fire—the Germans quit firing on us, and it quieted down. Well, this guy—he took over for captain. Well, his name was Anderson. Well, when he come up that’s the first thing he said to me. He said, “You are going to get the Silver Star.” And I said, “Well, that would be good.” I said, “Don’t forget my redheaded buddy there too.” And “I won’t,” he said. Well, that’s the last I ever heard of that except there was another time he promised me the same thing. And that’s when I was firing a different gun. �33 Interviewer: Yeah. Well, it certainly sounds like you earned it. (00:46:47) Veteran: Well… Interviewer: You know, at that point— Veteran: I’d like to have got it but… Interviewer: Yeah. Alright. Okay. Veteran: I wasn’t medal happy. Interviewer: Okay, so after this happens, are you basically in charge of that gun now? Was that your gun already or were you just one of the crewmen? Veteran: Well, that’s another thing I wanted to tell you. My section chief was—I was the corporal. I was the gunner. That was my job on the gun was the gunner. And I operated the sight. And so, that guy that was the section chief, he was the biggest coward I ever seen in my life. Every time there was a fire that went on anywhere close, he was in his foxhole. And even the officers, they called him “The Mole” because he was always digging. Interviewer: Okay. So, you were basically in charge a lot. Veteran: Yes. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. Now, so that was your first kind of actual experience in combat then, that day with the fire coming in after that. Now after that did you pack up and move someplace else? Or did you stay there for a while? (00:48:11) Veteran: No, no. We stayed there a while. �34 Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And we fired because that was that hedgerow country. The Germans were—they could still be there, and you wouldn’t even know it. And we stayed there for quite a while. And I had my crew. They came back and—snuck back after it was over, but…Then they moved us up into the hedgerow country more. And I can remember yet along the edges of the roads that went through that hedgerow was a regular windrow empty cartridges from machine guns where they fired from tanks and…And I mean a regular windrow a foot high. Interviewer: Now, did you see places where the bulldozers had cut through hedgerows or anything like that? Veteran: What’s that? Interviewer: Did you see—because they had—eventually, the Americans had bulldozers on the front of tanks, and they cut into the hedgerows with those. Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: Now, did you see places where tanks did that? Veteran: Oh yes. Yes, yes. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. Now at some point not too long after that, we do kind of start breaking out of the hedgerow country and you get into open country after that. Veteran: Yes. Yes. �35 Interviewer: Okay. And do you remember kind of where you went? I mean, did you go into Brittany, or did you go east kind of toward across France? Or what did you do next? (00:50:08) Veteran: I am trying to think of my—I am thinking that we left the hedgerow country. In my mind I am not too certain of that… Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: …right now. But anyway, we went to Hürtgen Forest. Interviewer: Okay. So, you—that—to get there, you’ve got to go across France. Did you go around Paris or through Paris or…? Veteran: No, we went around Paris. Interviewer: You went around there, okay. And then you have to get across northern France and go up into Belgium and then keep going to kind of get to the German frontier, which is where the Hürtgen Forest is. Veteran: Well, along the way I know that we had—we had battles along the way that we had a position in. Interviewer: Right. In those kinds of battles, what would happen? Veteran: Well…We’d usually fire on them, go into position on some town. And usually, those towns are always on a hill. Almost every town there is on a hill or… Interviewer: Right. �36 Veteran: There won’t be too big of a town but there would be a church and a school and farms. And one thing about…They kept the farm—the farmers kept their cattle right in the basement of the house they lived in. And it was kind of an odd situation but… Interviewer: Yeah. Would you sometimes sleep in the houses? (00:52:14) Veteran: Oh yes. Yes, sometimes. Interviewer: Okay. And would you sleep with the cows, or did you go upstairs? Veteran: Oh no, we’d always be upstairs. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: But the people would either be gone or… Interviewer: Okay, so basically you would go in and you’d set up in a town someplace because you had the— Veteran: On the outskirts of the town, yeah. Interviewer: Right. Okay, and then— Veteran: And we’d fire on that town on the—well, not on the town but on the Germans, you know. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: On their tanks. And I can remember one night we fired, well, all night long. And on the—just not too long a distance, a certain range—but we fired on that town. Well, in the �37 morning, it was quite early the sun was coming up. And they give us CSMO: CROWS Station March Order. Well, you’d pick up everything and your gun, you know. You’re moving. So, we picked up all our guns and everything, you know, and we moved, and we had to go right through that town that we had liberated, see, that night. Well, gee, the people were all out there to greet us. And I can remember it was just like yesterday it seemed…Well, these kids were all out asking me, “Have some gum?” Well, we’d always give them whatever gum, if we had any. So, this one girl come out and there was a guy on our crew, his name was Borovich. Well, he was throwing her sticks of gum and she was so busy picking them up that she forgot all she had on was a white negligée. White gown. Well, she’s running to pick up that gum and that come wide open. And Borovich was looking for gum all over the place. (00:54:59) Interviewer: Alright. So, a little bit of extra entertainment in that case. Okay. Alright, so this was not—so you were not actually bombarding the town itself with your guns, but your—but there had been fighting there. Veteran: The highway and… Interviewer: Yeah. But you had all chased the Germans off and they are all happy to see you at that point. Yeah. Okay. So, when you were going across France, would that be the kind of thing where you would set up and fire for a day or a few hours and then pack up and move again? Veteran: Oh yes. Yes, yes. �38 Interviewer: Yep. Okay. And then you—France, end up crossing into Belgium and the Germans mostly at this point are retreating until they get pretty much up to the German frontier. And that’s where the Hürtgen Forest area is. Veteran: Yes. Interviewer: Alright. Now was the Hürtgen Forest kind of the next place where you fought a lot, as opposed to one day here, one day there? Veteran: We were stationed in the Hürtgen Forest for…Gee, I don’t know how long it was. Interviewer: Probably weeks at least. Veteran: At least. Interviewer: Yeah, and this is kind of now well into the fall. It’s getting colder and— Veteran: Yes. Yep. Interviewer: Okay. Now what was—describe what it was like to be in the Hürtgen Forest. What sort of place was that? (00:56:14) Veteran: Well, it had the nicest big beech trees you ever seen. Big beech, you know, like 3-foot on the stump or more. And but mud, oh, there was mud. The Germans were dug in. Man, they had all kinds of protection, and the Americans didn’t have none. Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: Well, the 28th Division, the infantry and that, they just about got wiped out. Just about cleaned them right out. And… �39 Interviewer: Now, what was it like being in the artillery at that point? Did the Germans bombard your positions? Veteran: Oh yes. Yes, yes, every night. And there was a—right behind me was an anti-aircraft gun. And the guy on the anti-aircraft gun, the sergeant in charge was a friend of mine. I mean, I made friends with him. We run across each other again. They were attached to us, and they all seemed to be close. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: Well, I went back the next day to see him and to see what he was doing, you know, now. Because I had heard some explosions back in the night. I got out there and they were cleaning stuff up. And the gun is just sitting there just a black skeleton. Burned. And he told me what happened. He took a direct hit right in the gun pit. And he said, “Lucky it was there was nobody on the gun.” He said, “We were all doing something else.” And so, the commander of this anti-aircraft, he come and bawled them out because nobody got hurt. That was a—there was nobody on—he told me there was nobody on the gun, you know. “Well, how come you left the gun alone?” (00:58:49) Interviewer: Well— Veteran: That—I believe that’s the last time that I ever run across that sergeant from the…antiaircraft. Interviewer: Okay. Well now, did German aircraft ever come over at night? Veteran: Oh yes, yes. �40 Interviewer: Okay. So, they should have been on the gun? Or somebody should have been. Veteran: Yep. Yep. Yeah, there’s no doubt about there should have been somebody on the gun. Interviewer: Okay. Now, when you were in the Hürtgen Forest, did you basically dig in in one place and stay there? Or did they move you to different positions? Veteran: No, we basically stayed right in this one position for the war. Interviewer: Okay. And did you dig in and make shelters for yourselves? Veteran: Oh yeah, we had shelters. We took over a German shelter and—made out of concrete. And we stayed in that shelter. It was kind of a good place to stay. But I often thought the Germans know where this is; I wonder if we are safe here? Interviewer: Yeah. But it had a concrete roof? Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: So, it is a proper bunker so that might have been hard to knock out even with the regular artillery. Veteran: Oh yes. Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: A mortar wouldn’t hurt it. Interviewer: Right. Okay. Alright, now in your story we had gotten you into late in 1944. And your unit is in the Hürtgen Forest on the German frontier. And you were just talking �41 about the conditions there and you talked that you were in a German bunker, so you had a place to hide at least when you were under fire. Now what did they—how did they feed you when you were there? I mean, was there—did the regiment provide—have a field kitchen or did you just eat— (01:00:46) Veteran: Oh yes. Yes. Interviewer: Okay. And so, how would you get fed? I mean, you are at your firing positions so…? Veteran: No, we would go one or two at a time and eat. Interviewer: Okay, so there was a mess tent or something or…? Veteran: They had a— Interviewer: Or truck? Veteran: They had this trailer. Kitchen trailer. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: They had a fly up and then… Interviewer: Alright. Veteran: We’d go there. Interviewer: Yeah. Now, were there times when you couldn’t get back there and then you had to eat K-rations or…? �42 Veteran: Oh yes. Yeah, we had K-rations and C-rations. Interviewer: Alright. Now, a lot of people these days probably don’t even know what those are. What’s the difference between a K-ration and a C-ration? Veteran: A C-ration, the modern one, is the World War 2 ration. And the C-ration is the World War 1, and it is in cans. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And you’ve got to open the can. Interviewer: Alright. Veteran: Whereas the K-ration is in a package. Interviewer: And was that mostly dry food or…? Veteran: There was gum in there, a stick of gum, cigarette for those that smoked them. I always gave mine away. And then there was a cold food, like some kind of sausage or meat or something like that. It was very good ration for being… Interviewer: Well, it had calories and salt and yeah, whatever. Okay. Alright. Now, did your own battery take casualties in the Hürtgen Forest? Or do the guys around you get hit? (01:02:47) Veteran: What’s that now? Interviewer: Did the men in your battery—did your battery take casualties in the Hürtgen Forest? Were there men who got killed or wounded there? �43 Veteran: Oh, a lot of men got trench foot. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: Because of the wet weather in…We were in the Hürtgen Forest. I don’t know what time, what day it might have been. General Eisenhower was going around checking the troops and so he came to our battery. And he’s checking because everybody—they don’t have no boots or nothing, just shoes. And so, what I was going to say was I got to shake General Eisenhower’s hand. He congratulated us and said what a good job we were doing. Interviewer: Okay. But did he get you any new boots? Veteran: Well, he went back to Paris. And he took every pair of boots that they had in Paris and sent them to the front. Interviewer: Okay. (01:04:24) Veteran: Which I thought was…And he had a nice jacket on. And he took that jacket off and gave it to one of the soldiers. But he was a real nice man to talk to. Interviewer: Alright. Okay. Now, when you think about that period there when you are in the Hürtgen Forest, are there other particular things that you remember about being there? Veteran: Well, I am—what I would like to say is I mentioned about the wet weather and everybody having trench foot. And there was a lot of fellows. There was—one fellow’s name was…He was a Mexican man anyway, but a real nice guy. And he had the biggest scar on his face I have ever seen. Right down it. And he had been in North Africa and that’s where he got �44 wounded like that, but he wouldn’t talk about it. But I don’t know whatever happened to him. He and I took a liking to each other, and he said, “Can I stay? Can I bunk in with you guys?” And I said, “Yeah, sure.” So, he come, and he bunked with us. And he was there from—he was with the foreign observing crew. Interviewer: Okay. (01:06:11) Veteran: And so, he would go out on these missions. And he went on three or four of them. He’d come back and he’d always talk to me, tell me. So, this one time they were going out on this mission, they are just about ready to go, and he come over to me and he said—by that time, we were calling each other by first name. And he said, “Vern,” he said, “would you get my bedroll for me?” he said, “I don’t have time.” And I said, “Well, what do you want?” he said, “Everything.” He had everything in the bedroll, everything that he needed. So, I went, and I got his bedroll, took it out to him, and I said, “What’s the problem? Where are you going?” “I am going to the front,” he said. And I said, “Well, you’ll be coming back. Why don’t you leave your stuff here? I will take care of it for you.” “No,” he said, “I won’t be back.” I said, “Why not?” I said, “Getting transferred or something?” “No,” he said, “I just won’t be back.” So, he went to the front with a lieutenant and a crew. It’s a little while later and we get a telephone call from the front from the lieutenant: Perez had been killed. And that’s the man’s name. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: But there was a lot of happenings in the Hürtgen Forest. It was the 11th of November, Armistice Day. And we got up in the morning and oh, the weather had changed. You could see those—the sky was just as clear as could be. And everything was sparkling in the sunlight. (01:08:32) �45 Veteran: So, overhead there was a German plane circling around. You could see the insignia on his wings. He kept circling around pretty high altitude. I know he was taking pictures, is what he was doing. So, we watched him for quite a while and the anti-aircraft would fire and they wouldn’t come nowhere close to bursting him. You could see it burst into the plane he kept flying. Well then, he had gotten all his pictures he wanted. Well, all at once, down comes a regular snowstorm. A literature of papers. And it was—on it was: ‘We were about to die,’ ‘Give up now.’ Or words to that effect. Interviewer: So, he is dropping propaganda leaflets on you? Veteran: Yeah, a whole bunch of leaflets. They all dropped down. Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: I gathered some of them, but I had them in my collection. But they got burned. But we didn’t stay in the Hürtgen Forest long after that because the…The infantry, if I remember right now, I think Bonn, Germany is kind of north of Hürtgen. These infantrymen were all coming back from Bonn. They had taken Bonn from the Germans. (01:10:50) Interviewer: They probably are coming from Aachen. Veteran: Aachen! Aachen, you’re right. Interviewer: Yeah. because first of all—because that— Veteran: Aachen, that’s what I was trying to think of. Interviewer: Right. Yeah, because that was sort of the first city in Germany that we captured. �46 Veteran: Yeah. I am glad you brought that up. Interviewer: Alright. Veteran: But… Interviewer: So, they took your place in line? Veteran: No, no. They were just coming through. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: But man, they—every one of them that you talked to had just wads of big money, German money. I got some there yet. And they had robbed these banks in Aachen. Interviewer: Alright. Veteran: And they brought that money back with them. It’s not worth anything anymore. Interviewer: Nope. And then is—and then you think you moved pretty soon after that? Veteran: Yes. Yes. Interviewer: Okay. And then where did they move you to? Did you go to the rear or just a new place in line? Veteran: From Hürtgen Forest, see that was in November. Interviewer: Yeah. And then in the middle of December, you are on the line in the Ardennes Forest. (01:12:09) �47 Veteran: The where? Interviewer: Well, the Ardennes Forest is where—for the Battle of the Bulge. Veteran: Yeah. Yeah. Interviewer: Is that the—did you just go straight from Hürtgen Forest down the line to the Ardennes? Veteran: I believe it, yes. Interviewer: Okay. Because they—did they tell you that you were moving to a quiet sector? Or did they just move you and not tell you anything? Veteran: Oh, they didn’t tell you, you know, much about where you are moving to or anything. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: Now, I am trying to think. See, I am mixed up I believe. Bastogne. Interviewer: Well, Bastogne is late December. That’s in the Battle of the Bulge. Okay, now were you—now, when the 28th division goes down to the Ardennes Forest, they are stretched out in a pretty large area. Veteran: Yes. Interviewer: And they’ve got two regiments kind of on the line, and then the 110th regiment is kind of in reserve behind them. Now, do you know which regiment you were stationed close to? Were you with the 110th or the 108th or 12th? �48 Veteran: 109th. Interviewer: 109th. 109th, okay. Alright. And was that regiment up on the front line when the Battle of the Bulge started? Or were they in the rear? Veteran: Oh no, they were…They were on— Interviewer: Yeah, I think they were on the front. Veteran: They were a fighting regiment. Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: 109th. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. So, did you have a couple of weeks in the Ardennes where things were fairly quiet? Veteran: Yes; yes, we—except for just the regular roll of life, you know. In the Army, it’d be going on. But it was pretty quiet. But now…I just got that World War 2 magazine here this week or last week and it mentioned the Malmedy massacre. You recall that? From Bastogne, close to Bastogne. Interviewer: That was some ways north and east of Bastogne. (01:14:40) Veteran: Yep. Interviewer: Yeah, and those were some of the men who were caught up in the area north of where you were. �49 Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: Malmedy was north of where you were. Let’s go to—okay, so you were basically—you go and were you in—do you think you were in Luxembourg at this point? The northern part of Luxembourg or in Belgium or do you not know? Veteran: It was Luxembourg or Diekirch. Interviewer: Yeah, that [Diekirch]was in Luxembourg. I think Clervaux and Wiltz were in Luxembourg too and those were kind of behind your positions. Anyway, okay, so you have a fairly quiet time initially. And then middle of December, the Germans start attacking. Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: Okay. And so, do you remember the beginning of that? Veteran: You know, that must have been when we were in Diekirch. Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: And Diekirch was kind of a—built on a hill like. And…The Germans were coming to take Diekirch back. They wanted to get it back for some reason I don’t know. Well…We fired on their equipment; you know. Got where we were busy. Well, man, they made a big attack and I mean they threw everything at us. (01:16:20) Veteran: And they had us surrounded. Well, all of a sudden, we get the order CSMO again. So, away we go. Well, like I said, the section chief we had wasn’t too sharp and was too scared to be—and especially like the battle we were having at Diekirch. Man…But anyway…We were �50 there, and we made a trip across this field. Walked across it. It was about a…oh, I’d say a couple miles. Interviewer: Was there snow on the field or was it clear? Was there— Veteran: Rain and mud and snow. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And we get up there and it’s right at the—a crossroads, the main crossroads. And the Germans had that zeroed in. So, went up there and they said they would give us a position to hold. I am along this highway. And oh, one time these machine gun bullets started popping right alongside me through the dust there. So, man, I took off on a run. I found a—underneath this road—I found a big culvert. You could stand up in it. (01:18:30) Veteran: And I got in that and boy that time there was quite a few other guys in there too. Well, I am in there and there is an apple tree right out from that end of that. And we are shooting at that apple tree, getting apples. Interviewer: How did you get out of there? Veteran: Well, this—the battle kind of stopped. Everybody was firing on that intersection. You know, all of the artillery. And so, I am in that—sitting in that culvert. And this guy comes up out of the woods there, and I know him. He was a Ranger from the Ranger battalion. So, I said to him—I said, “Where did you come from?” “Back in there,” he said. I said, “What’s it like back there?” he said, “There’s a dead German under every leaf.” He said, “We really wiped them out.” Interviewer: Alright, so— (01:20:11) �51 Veteran: Between the artillery fire and infantry and the stuff we sent, they were gone. Interviewer: Okay. So, the Germans—you though they had you surrounded? Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: But they left? Veteran: Yep. Interviewer: Okay. So, you didn’t get captured or anything else like that? Veteran: No. Interviewer: Alright. Alright, and then did you—were you able to stay in that town? Or did they move you somewhere else? Veteran: We stayed—we went back to that town after that battle on that intersection. And that’s when we got into it. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: That night…Well, right where I had my gun set up, there was an orchard. Well, you got to find out the minimum and maximum elevation. So, I turned that in and recorded it, made sure I had it recorded. And so, gee, that night and day firing—holy mackerel, it was terrible. Just steady. I mean, oh… Interviewer: So, firing coming in at you? Veteran: Yeah. �52 Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And so, we were looking for a place to stay, see, when…So, there was a nice house just down from our gunning there. And some of the guys went exploring. They went in that house. And oh, it was a beautiful place. A doctor owned it. And I went down there and went up. It was about 3 stories high house. I went up on the top story, up in the—what they called the attic. And there was big piles of apples up there. Each one had been individually wrapped. Man, we had apples. But that night, we went right back in. The Germans started firing on, so, gee, we—they knew that we were going to be captured, you know. Because we didn’t have nothing to stop them. (01:22:53) Veteran: So, they moved out. And they took everything, you know. The whole battery moved with a Close Station March Order. And so, we went out through Diekirch and that’s where I got hit with that shrapnel. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: Into my back. Interviewer: Now, was that from shell fire or…? Veteran: Yeah, from— Interviewer: From mortars? Veteran: From German artillery. Interviewer: Okay. �53 Veteran: And now that—I had that belt and I wanted to keep it and I don’t know what happened to it. But anyway, it was just about—the shrapnel just about cut the belt in two. Well, man, we— finally it’s our turn to move out of there. And we get out and we go down to where they had set up on a firm—another position. And so, there was—we start checking the ammunition. And they found out that they had 12 rounds of white phosphorus was missing. (01:24:25) Veteran: So, the captain asked me if I knew where that 12 rounds was and I said, “Well Captain,” I said, “I think I know where I could find it,” I said. So, well my foreman, the coward, he said, “Yeah, he knows where it is.” Man, I wanted to say, “You’re coming with me.” So anyway, I went back up there and got that 12 rounds of… Interviewer: So, you had left that behind? Veteran: Yes. Interviewer: In the previous position. Veteran: And forgot it. Interviewer: So, the Germans could have been there by the time you went back. Veteran: Oh yes. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: Well, I get up there on that—where that position was with the jeep. And we were going to load those 12 rounds and take them back, see. Interviewer: Right. �54 Veteran: Well, we found the ambush. I knew right where it was. Found the…and I think you know what white phosphorus is. It’ll burn a hole right through you. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: Well, we are taking that white phosphorus back down to the gun, you know. Well, way down, I heard this—no, I am getting ahead of myself. I didn’t go. I stayed back. I had to stay back for some reason or another. And the rest of the men they took and went back down to the— to where the battery had set a position. And oh, were the Germans firing. Man, right in the bad part of that, all the people of that town were leaving. And it would bog the highway and oh, you couldn’t get through. (01:26:35) Veteran: So, another guy volunteered to stay with me. And I wish he wouldn’t because oh, he was just scared, you know. I didn’t blame him. But I heard this troop coming. I heard a guy giving commands, you know. So, I couldn’t tell whether it was Germans or…So, finally I decided that it was Americans. You know, I could understand. And I get out on that road from down the side hill and I said, when they get up the hill, I said, “Halt and be recognized.” So, this lieutenant, he come up and he said, “What are you doing here?” and I said, “I am waiting for a truck to come back and pick me up.” He said, “Well,” he said, “you see those lights around there?” and these flashlights were going on red, white, and blue. The Germans had a signal made up with us, see. And they were flashing them back and forth sending the signal. And he said, “You better get out of here,” he said. “Well, I am not up here because I want to be.” So, he got his men and they marched down. They took off the whole company. It was infantry. Interviewer: Did you go with them? (01:28:08) �55 Veteran: No, no I didn’t go because I had to wait for my…I am getting mixed up. That was before we picked up the ammunition. Interviewer: Oh okay. Veteran: And we picked up ammunition after I met him. Interviewer: Alright. So, then the—was it a jeep or a truck that…? Veteran: A jeep. Interviewer: Okay and so you get in the jeep and you get out of there? Veteran: Yep. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: Well, the jeep was loaded with 12 rounds of ammunition. Interviewer: Right. Right. Veteran: So, we took off down through that town. Interviewer: Okay, so just to straighten out that story a little bit. So, you went back to the place where the ammunition was? Veteran: Yes. Interviewer: Did you help load the ammunition onto the jeep? Veteran: Yes. �56 Interviewer: And then did they go away with that and come back? Or why were you separated from them? Veteran: I really don’t know why I wasn’t. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: But I had—I was… Interviewer: But they had—but did they drive the shells off first or did you ride with the shells? Veteran: No, I rode with the shells. They were loaded. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. Veteran: The driver and I—the driver of the jeep. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. But somewhere in the middle, you were out there by yourself waiting for the jeep. Veteran: Yes. Interviewer: And that’s when that happened. Okay. Alright. Well, you get back out of that safely enough. Now, after you get back to the unit, does the unit retreat or…? Veteran: I was happy to get back. Well, that’s another time that Anderson, the captain, told me I was going to get the Silver Star. Interviewer: Yep. �57 Veteran: He said, “Do you know how many lives you saved?” he said, “That white phosphorus is deadly.” Well, that’s when we went back to that town. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And he was [unintelligible]. I can’t remember the name of it. Interviewer: Okay, well was it a town that you stayed in and then moved forward from? Or did you move back from there as well? Veteran: No, no we just…We went into another position after we got out of that town. Interviewer: Right. (01:30:14) Veteran: I can’t remember. Interviewer: And then do you think you stayed there for a while? Or…? Veteran: Yes, we stayed there for a short while. Interviewer: And did the Germans keep coming after you? Or did they leave you alone now? Veteran: They were—they kind of left us alone. As I remember, anyway. Interviewer: Yeah. Well, you were kind of south of where most of their advance was taking place. You were kind of at the south end of the Bulge. Kind of at the corner, where you were, that was—and so if they were mostly going forward, then they might not be trying to attack in your direction so much. So, it gets a little bit quieter at least for a while. �58 Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: Now, then do you start counterattacking or do you just stay there? Or...? Veteran: We’d fire harassing fire. They—all night long, we’d—the gun would be in position, you know. And they’d give us these altitudes and ranges of—and we’d fire all night long at certain intervals. And I think we done that for oh, maybe 2 weeks or so. Interviewer: Yeah, because that would have been while a lot of the rest of the campaign was playing out around Bastogne and then pushing them back again. Veteran: Right. Interviewer: And you are kind of staying where you were. And then, do you start moving forward again at some point? Do you go into Germany now or…? Veteran: Yes. Yes. Now…time goes by and we were—we are moving towards them to the Rhine. And so, we kept going. Well, at that time, I might be—mine was—the infantry took the Remagen Bridge. Well, we get down to the Remagen Bridge and we go into position there. (01:32:50) Veteran: And in that area where we went into position was a landing and a take-off area for these bombs that the Germans were sending over to England. Interviewer: Let’s see, were those the— Veteran: Buzz bomb. Interviewer: The buzz bombs, the V-1s, yeah. Okay. �59 Veteran: And at that ramp that was there, oh that ramp was—must have been I’d say close to a mile. A half a mile at least. And those buzz bombs would take of up that, you know, and... So, the infantry really tore that ramp that—bomb up. It was not—I had some of the parts for it. But I couldn’t keep everything that I wanted. Interviewer: Right. I was going to ask: during that winter when you are in the Bulge and you’re fighting and it’s in December/January, did it get really cold? Veteran: Oh yes. Yes, yes. Interviewer: Did your unit have frostbite problems as well as trench foot? Veteran: I didn’t. I didn’t. The reason I didn’t was I had my mother and my dad send me a pair of sheepskin moccasins and I put them on inside of a pair of five buckle or four buckle arties [artillery boots] and oh, my feet were always warm. (01:34:26) Interviewer: Okay. Well, I guess if you come from the UP, you’d know something about cold. Veteran: I had to guard them boots with my life, though. Interviewer: I’ll bet. Alright. So, now you’ve made it—you’ve pushed forward to the Bulge, you have made it up to the Rhine River. Now, the position that you set up on, were you on the west bank of the Rhine? So, the launcher was kind of going up the side of the riverbank? Veteran: West bank. Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah, so the launcher for the missile would be like— �60 Veteran: The launcher was running— Interviewer: Going uphill, out of the riverbed. Yeah. It’s kind of like a reverse ski jump or something. Veteran: Yep. Interviewer: Yeah. Okay. And then, at the time you got to Remagen, was the old bridge still standing or just pontoon bridges? Veteran: Oh, it was still standing. You could get across it. But you had to walk it, though. You couldn’t drive. Interviewer: Okay, and why was that? Veteran: Because it was bombed and that—there was beams laying across it and parts of it were—they didn’t trust it, you know? Interviewer: Right. Veteran: But you could walk. Well, the Americans were already—engineers were putting up a floating dock. Interviewer: Yeah, the pontoon bridges. Veteran: Pontoon bridge. Interviewer: Yep. �61 Veteran: They were already putting it up. Well, it was nice there. It was nice. There was no firing going. So, this pilot in this observer plane, a Taylorcraft—well, I knew him pretty well, talking to him and…different times. So, he come looking for me. And so, he found me finally and he said, “Vern,” he said, “you want to go up over the Remagen Bridge?” and I said, “Sure.” “Come on.” “Well,” I said, “I got to check with my captain first.” So, I went over to Captain Anderson and I said, “Captain Anderson, I got a chance to go over the Remagen Bridge.” “How are you going?” I said, “That Taylorcraft there.” (01:36:50) Veteran: “Well, what are you waiting for?” he said, “Get going.” So, I went with this pilot. We went up over the bridge. And oh, I wish I could see—know how—to tell you the sight that you’d see from up above there. Oh, you could see the Germans in one place and the Americans in another, you know, and…So…They said that they had guards on both ends of the bridge. And that night, after things quieted down a little bit again, the Germans retook Remagen Bridge yet. They retook it right at night. Interviewer: I don’t think so. They might have told you that, but there’s nothing—that’s not what the records indicate at all. Veteran: No. Interviewer: They did counterattack, though. Veteran: Yep, they did. They took the bridge back. Not…you know, I mean it was just—they had it for a short while. Interviewer: Now, did you see that? Did you see that or did you just hear about it? (01:38:18) �62 Veteran: Oh yes. Yes. Yes, we were right there. Interviewer: And the Germans came all the way across the river? Or…? Veteran: Oh yeah, they come back. And that was quite a sight. You know you can talk, but you can’t describe it, you know. But and then we—now, this is getting down into—it’s pretty cold, you know. And so, we are getting into—see, we had been—in November, we had been in Hürtgen Forest. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: And December we were in Belgium and… Interviewer: Belgium and Luxembourg, yep. Veteran: …Luxembourg. Interviewer: Okay. And— Veteran: And… Interviewer: Remagen is March now. So, in February/March, you are going into Germany. Veteran: So, the Germans are—they are fighting to get back across the Rhine to get to Germany; back into Germany. So, we have got the guns in position and all ready to fire and—because we had been getting reports about activity, you know. And so, my telephone rings. I am not supposed to be answering the telephone, see, but like I said, the section chief gave me one of those. I wouldn’t need to hide it all the time, you know. Taking care of number one. Well, I answered the phone. And, “Let me talk to Vern.” Well, I knew right away it was Lieutenant Katz �63 so I said, “You’ve got Vern on the phone, Lieutenant.” “Vern,” he said, “we don’t have much time. I can’t tell you nothing right now. Do what I tell you,” he said. (01:40:54) Veteran: And I said, “I’ll be ready in less than five minutes.” “Okay.” Man, I gave the commands he give me, relayed them. And he was on the phone and he said, “Give me so many rounds,” and I fired. And, “Vern,” he said, “Don’t change a thing. Keep them coming.” So, I fired again, you know. By that time, he’s got battery ten rounds. Each gun in the battery fired ten rounds. Well, I fired and I kept firing, you know. And so, finally he gave them fire. He gave them—one command he gave them was “Keep them coming,” he said. No—"just keep them coming,” he said. Well, I don’t know how many rounds between the battery that we fired. And it was right on a barge, a great big barge. Interviewer: Okay. (01:42:11) Veteran: That was trying to get across the Mississippi. Interviewer: Oh, the Rhine anyway. Veteran: Across the Rhine, I mean. Mississippi... Interviewer: Okay. Now, was Lieutenant Katz a forward observer? Veteran: Yes. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: Yes, he was. And so, he come back and then he was telling me about it. And he— “Vern,” he said, “I never seen nothing like it.” He said, “Them rounds were falling right in that big barge,” he said. And he said, “That barge was just packed, just loaded with shelling and are �64 waiting…” Well, different ones ask me always, you know, how many Germans I killed. Well, in a case like that, you know, none. Interviewer: Yeah. You would have no idea. Veteran: But that’s getting pretty close to the end of the… Interviewer: Yes, it is. So, shortly after that did you cross the Rhine and then move into Germany? Veteran: Yep. Yep. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: Yep. Interviewer: Alright. And in the last couple months of the war there, in April and May, did the fighting quiet down or were you in an area where the Germans were still fighting back? Veteran: No. They are still giving us resistance. They still give us resistance. Interviewer: Well, were you going into cities or were you in the countryside? Veteran: Come again? Interviewer: Were you fighting in cities or were you out in the country? (01:44:04) Veteran: No, we were out in the country. Interviewer: Okay. �65 Veteran: They got a notice that—this is getting pretty close to the end of the war. No treaty was signed or nothing yet but we had taken Paris. Paris fell; the Germans had moved out. Interviewer: Well, that was back in August of ’44. Paris is back in France. Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: The German—the Russians are taking Berlin at that point. Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: That’s the end, yeah. So, that may be what you heard about at that point? That Berlin fell. Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: Yeah. Okay. Veteran: But now, I know this story I am telling concerned Paris. Because—you’re right, that’s earlier. But anyway, they took us from Paris and marched—went through Paris, the 28th division. Paraded right through Paris, right down under the arch. And went right out into the outskirts where Eiffel Tower is. And they said for us not to go over the first level on the Eiffel Tower because the Germans were sniping. We stayed there overnight. And I can remember yet the Frenchmen were out and they were gathering this clover, alfalfa clover. They were gathering it. And we didn’t know what they were doing with it. Finally, we found out that they were gathering and they were roasting it over a fire. And that’s what they made coffee out of, was that alfalfa. But… �66 Interviewer: Alright. Okay, so you did—so that was on your way across France, that you went through that part, went through Paris? (01:46:36) Veteran: Yes. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. But now we kind of get to the end of the war, get to May of ’45 and you are in Germany. Do you know where you were when the war ended? Or when the war with Germany ended? What part of Germany you were in or…? What town you were close to? Veteran: Yep. Interviewer: So, where were you? Veteran: Lauterecken. Interviewer: Okay, and where is that? Veteran: It’s in Germany. Interviewer: Okay, is it kind of in southern Germany or middle? Veteran: I believe it is up towards the middle more. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. And did the fighting just stop at that point or were there still people shooting after that? Veteran: Oh, there were still—they are still firing after that. But we stayed in Lauterecken. Lauterecken is a train station. �67 Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And I’d say there is maybe 20 to 40 railroads running through it. Tracks. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And a really busy place. Well, they put us on guard there and so we are right by the railroad. And we’d see these trains coming and of course those trains had nothing but a hotbox in them burning. Whenever we seen a hotbox, we’d stop the train. And—because we knew the car would be loaded. (01:48:18) Veteran: And we’d stop the train and go look at what they were loaded with. And almost every time it was either fish or beans. And to get from the railroad station where we were guarding, you went over the bridge and up in the—we stayed in this school. And it was a pretty good-sized school. But one night we stopped a train. Of course, it was loaded with beans. And so, Ackerman says, “Well, I am going to take a case of those beans to the kitchen for the mess sergeant.” Well, he puts the beans on his shoulder, he starts walking. He’s got to walk across this dam to get across that river. He slips and loses his beans. Interviewer: Oh… Veteran: Well, pretty outgoing fellow, Sergeant Ackerman was. Goes and takes the gates out of the dam to raise the dam. Well, there was dead Germans, all kinds of weapons, guns and everything, thrown in that dam. (01:50:08) Interviewer: Alright. Now, at the point when the Germans surrender and you are in this area, do you start to see the German civilians come out? �68 Veteran: Oh yes. Yes, yes. We couldn’t talk to them. Interviewer: Yeah, no fraternization. Veteran: No fraternization. Interviewer: Alright. What impression did you have of the German people at that point? Veteran: Well, I—the German people as a whole were good people. Almost every one of the civilians that you talked to—they didn’t want the war. But it was one thing they were forced, you know. Either do it or die. But as for the German people, they were good people. Interviewer: So, your guys got along with them pretty well? Veteran: Oh yes. Interviewer: Yeah. Okay. Now, did you stay in that area until it was time for you to go home? Or did they move you around? Veteran: We moved around but that was kind of our headquarters, was Lauterecken. But we’d go up to Kaiserslautern quite a bit. That’s a pretty good-sized town. Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: And we handed in our mail up there. And that’s where we got our mail was…And I remember yet, we’d take this tank and we’d go up to—up to Lauterecken from—go to Kaiserslautern from Lauterecken and we’d get our mail. And they just wanted us to move the 37caliber gun on the tank and, oh, they’d do about 70 miles an hour. And can you imagine just �69 going down the road with that wide open, you know. 70 miles an hour? Why, it’s a wonder we didn’t get killed but… Interviewer: Now, was this on a truck or…? (01:52:33) Veteran: No, on the big—it was a… Interviewer: Was it an armored car? Veteran: Armored truck. Interviewer: Yeah. Okay. So, yeah, okay because there were armored cars, there were scout cars that were armored. Basically, small armored trucks. Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: Yeah, okay. Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: Yeah, those could do 70 miles an hour probably. Veteran: Oh yeah. Interviewer: A tank couldn’t but that could. Alright. And once we got to the end of the war, then they started to send people home. And a lot of them went home when they had enough points to be able to go home. So—but sometimes they went as a whole unit. Now, did your unit come home together or did you go individually? Veteran: No, we came together. �70 Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: Alright. And so, do you remember—and that was later in 1945? So, it’s still the same year? Because I think your discharge was October or something like that. Veteran: I believe it, yes. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: Yes. Interviewer: Alright. So, how did they get you home? Veteran: Well, we went to this…Am I thinking right? Myles Standish. Camp Myles Standish. Interviewer: Well, Myles Standish—that would have been a camp back in Massachusetts that you might have landed at. Veteran: Yeah, that’s where we landed. Interviewer: Okay. Do you remember where you left from? Did you go out of Le Havre or somewhere else? Did you sail out of France or out of Germany? So, a lot of them went to camps that were named after different brands of cigarettes. (01:54:14) Veteran: Yes. Camp—I am trying to think of that cigarette. We were in a cigarette camp. Interviewer: Yeah, okay. So, like Lucky Strike or Marlboro or one of those? Veteran: Yeah… �71 Interviewer: Yeah. Okay. So, you go to north—you go to France and you sail out of Le Havre but you land at Boston, basically. So, you— Veteran: Yep. Interviewer: And they process you at Camp Myles Standish. Now, did they discharge you there or did they send you somewhere else to get discharged? Veteran: Camp Grant again. Interviewer: And back to Camp Grant. Alright. And then from there you get back up…Now, do you remember anything about the voyage back across the Atlantic? Was that better than the way over or worse? Veteran: Oh yeah, it was quiet. Interviewer: Okay. And were you still in a troop ship? Veteran: Yep. Yep, troop ship. Interviewer: Okay, so you do that again. Alright. And then you get home? Okay. So, you have gone off, you have been to war. So, you have just come back home again to where your parents are? Veteran: Yes. Interviewer: Okay. And then after you got home, what kind of work did you do? Veteran: Well, I didn’t do much of anything for…They had that policy. What was it? �72 Interviewer: 52/20? Veteran: 52/20 or 52/50. Interviewer: Yeah, something like that. 52/50 yeah or—well, 20 maybe—might have been $20 dollars a week, 52 weeks or— Veteran: Yeah, something like that. Interviewer: But they gave you some money when you got home. Veteran: Yep. Interviewer: Okay. And then, but eventually you had to get a job. Veteran: Well, I had a buddy. He had been in the Army or in the Air Corps. And he never left the states or nothing. And he was working for the state of Michigan. Michigan State Ferries. And he called me and asked me if I wanted to go to work. Well, I wasn’t quite ready yet, but anyway I went to work. Interviewer: Okay. (01:56:18) Veteran: Well, I have worked for the Michigan State Ferries. Interviewer: The Michigan State what? Veteran: State Ferries. Interviewer: So, ferries as in ferry boats? Veteran: Carried the cars across the… �73 Interviewer: Okay, car ferries. Alright. Veteran: And I worked for them for…gee, I’d say four or five years. And I—they were political. And so, the ones that were politicians, they had the good jobs. And I was rated as an A and I was getting B pay. So, I quit. I heard they were starting a causeway on the bridge. So, I quit. And I went to work for Johnson and Green on the causeway. Interviewer: Okay. So, is that the bridge across the Straits of Mackinac? Veteran: Yes. Interviewer: Okay, so you helped build the Big Mac Bridge? Veteran: Yes, right from start to finish. Interviewer: Alright. Okay and then did you stay in engineering or construction work or did you do other things after that? Veteran: I worked on all the bridges. I worked on the bridge in the Sault. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And then I worked on the Mackinac Bridge of course, from start to finish. And…other than that… Interviewer: Well, but did you just— Veteran: And then now like in—later after the bridge was built— Interviewer: Yeah. �74 Veteran: I joined the ironwork. Well, I did belong with the ironworkers. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And I was an ironworker until I retired. Interviewer: Alright. Now, we are getting close to the end of this tape as well. I want to ask you sort of one last question and that is how do you think your time in the service affected you or what did you learn from it? (01:58:49) Veteran: I learned to take commands and that the time in the service affected me hearing-wise. Interviewer: Yes. Veteran: I can’t hear out of my left ear hardly at all. That’s why I keep asking what. Other than that, it was a good experience. It is something. But one thing that did bother me: I am still fighting that war at night when I go to bed. I remember when I first come back, well I was staying with my mother and daddy in their little farmhouse and the Germans were attacking that. So… Interviewer: So, it stays with you in some bad ways even though it was mostly a good thing. Veteran: Yes. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. Well, this is—I feel very lucky to have the chance to meet you and record your story today, so thank you very much for sharing it. Veteran: Well, let’s hope it does some good; do something with it. �75 Interviewer: I think it will. Alright. Okay, so we are starting up again here. So, alright, now we are doing here an appendix to the interview with Vern Erskine because as we were here, the family members were here. They thought of different particular stories that he has told in the past that they want to get recorded here. You mentioned in your story that you had met General Eisenhower. Now, they also tell me that you met General Patton? (02:00:39) Veteran: Oh yes. I met General Patton. Twice. Both times he bawled me out. Interviewer: Okay…And why was that? Veteran: One time was in Wiltz, Luxembourg. I had taken my gun to ordinance because the recoil wasn’t working on it. So, I hopped into a truck and the driver of the truck and I took it to Wiltz. And got up there and of course we had to stay overnight. And so, the next day was about, oh, in the afternoon anyway. We started back to get connected back on my battery. And about halfway there, well, we met this jeep coming with 5 stars on it. Right away, I knew it was Patton. So, he stopped us and I jumped out quick, reported to him, and he said, with no other words, he said, “What in the hell are you doing out here,” he said, “with that gun?” He said, “Nobody around except Germans,” he said. He said, “Do you know you are surrounded by Germans?” And I wanted to say to him, well, how about you? Well, anyway, that was my one conversation with him. (02:02:29) Interviewer: Okay. So, was this during the early part—well, was this during the Battle of the Bulge? Veteran: Ahh, no… Interviewer: Was it after that or before it? �76 Veteran: It was after the Battle of the Bulge. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. So, that was—because the Germans had gone through Wiltz and they had pushed the 110th regiment of your division out of there. Veteran: Yep. Interviewer: But then we—but for Patton to be there, that would be later because he comes up later. So, you pushed back again but there were still Germans around? Veteran: Yep. Interviewer: Okay. Now, did you just keep going and go back to your battery anyway? Veteran: Yes. Yes, I went back and I reported to the captain, told him what happened. Interviewer: Okay, so what was the second example—time with Patton? Veteran: The second time the snipers were really working. And anybody that had any insignia on them, they would give them—they were in charge—they were a target. Well, this captain or this lieutenant—Lieutenant Taylor—he come in and he was talking to us. And he said he wanted to go and look at something, so he wanted to know who would go with him, just walking. And we started out walking. Didn’t get very far; we meet the jeep with the 5 stars. And of course, Lieutenant Taylor, he had his Army jacket turned wrong side out so no one would know his insignia on it. No identification. Had his hat, all the liner, on. And we met General Patton. And that time, he wasn’t very nice at all. He asked that lieutenant, “Are you ashamed of your service? Don’t you want to wear the uniform?” And oh, we raked us all over the coals. Finally, he left. But… (02:04:52) �77 Interviewer: Did anyone explain to him why he was doing that? Veteran: Well, I told him, you know. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: But then… Interviewer: But he didn’t care. Veteran: It didn’t do any good to tell him. Interviewer: Okay. Alright, now another thing that they told me is that there was a point when you saw a German pilot who was shot down? And parachuted into your position? Veteran: Oh…We were in a position on Christmas Day. And we have—and it’s a beautiful morning. The sun is shining but its colder than a son of a gun. So, overhead there is this German plane circling around. And he is circling around and, finally, we couldn’t figure out what he was looking for. Well, over comes two P-37s, Thunderbirds [P-47 Thunderbolts]. And they are loaded with 500-pound bombs, one under each wing. So, that German Messerschmitt—well, he took off after that. Them Thunderbirds—well, them Thunderbirds couldn’t stand a chance against—they couldn’t maneuver with them bombs. So, they set up a little defense by circling one another. They’d circle around that Me-109 and they killed time. (02:06:42) Veteran: In the meantime, they were calling for a pursuit ship to come. Well, just like an angel out on the sky and along comes this P-38 with a double fuselage on it. And he goes down and the Messerschmitt couldn’t outmaneuver him. And boy, he’d get on his tail and he’d fire and empty casings were landing right by us. We were picking them up. �78 Interviewer: So, he parachuted out of the plane or did he land the plane on the field? Veteran: Oh, easily. They were shooting at each other. Interviewer: Okay, but you said—but the Messerschmitt came down—the— Veteran: No, he didn’t come down. No, he stayed up there. Interviewer: Alright. Veteran: And he was circling around. Finally…Finally, that P-38 got onto his tail and they let drive with that fuselage and smoke poured out of that Messerschmitt. And out comes the parachute. So, when that parachute hit the ground, we were right there, right where he landed. And he was dressed, oh, immaculate. Oh, black polished boots on, just shining. Nice blue uniform, silk scarf. (02:08:33) Veteran: And so, by that time, the captain is over there with us. Captain Anderson is with us. And he questioned him, but he’d just spit. So, some of the guys said, “Let me take care of him,” you know. Well anyway, the MPs went up and got him and took him off. Interviewer: Okay. But basically, this pilot had an attitude. Veteran: Yeah. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. So, you had that. Now, you mentioned that was Christmas Day. Veteran: That was— Interviewer: But it also mentions where you were the previous night, on Christmas Eve. �79 Veteran: Yes, yes. Interviewer: What was—what happened then? Veteran: Well, that…Christmas Eve—I think that was a different Christmas though. Interviewer: Okay. Well, you only had one in Europe. I guess, they were talking about you being in a hayloft or something and some woman bringing you cookies? Veteran: Oh…That was in Luxembourg. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: And this woman—it was on Christmas, that’s right. She brought us big Saint Nick’s cookies. They were about 12 inches high. Really good cookie. Her name was Mrs. Ish: I-s-h. Interviewer: Okay, and were you just staying in her house or…? (02:10:18) Veteran: No, no. No, we were staying in the little barn out on the— Interviewer: Oh, you were in the barn. Okay. So, you let them have the house. Alright. Okay. Veteran: That was one instance but she had a sister in Chicago, she told us. Interviewer: Okay. And did she—so, she spoke some English or…? Veteran: Pardon? Interviewer: Did she speak some English? Or— �80 Veteran: Yeah, she could speak English. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. And then, I guess you also spent some time in a hospital? You had— Veteran: Oh yes. Yes, I got food poisoning from eating turkey salad out of an aluminum container. And the whole battery was laid out. The Germans could have walked in and just… Interviewer: Okay, so was this something supplied by your field kitchen or was this just coming out of cans? This turkey salad. Veteran: Out of our field kitchen. Interviewer: Okay. Oh well. Alright. Anything else? Did you ever encounter Audie Murphy? Veteran: Oh yes, yes. Yes. Yes, I went to a hospital for treatment for something or another. I don’t—it wasn’t for…And Audie Murphy was there. And I just talked to him just a couple minutes, you know. Interviewer: Was he a patient at the hospital or was he now a hero, already visiting people? (02:12:29) Veteran: He wasn’t a hero yet. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: But I didn’t know it was Audie Murphy, but after I got back to my battery and after, well, this—medics told me that that was Audie Murphy. �81 Interviewer: Okay. Alright. Okay. Alright…Oh wait a minute, there was one other thing they did tell me about and that was that at some point you saw a German boy, a civilian, get hit in the fighting. Veteran: Oh yes. Yes, I was in…It would have been Luxembourg again. Interviewer: Was that after Remagen? Or you’re still in Luxembourg. Okay. Veteran: And we had moved into this position. Now, this is quite a long story. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: But we fired on that town and finally they said, “See us at home.” We moved right up to the town. We get up to that town and all of the school children are all in their little black uniforms, long black socks. And they are all waving a little American flag. And they are waving an American flag. So, all at once, the Germans started shooting 88s and that little boy standing in line, waving a flag, was about like from here to you from me. (02:14:42) Veteran: And right before my eyes, shot his right leg right off. Just…tore it right off. Right just—I couldn’t believe it, you know. And so, we were still going up into position and they were firing those 88s. Oh man, and oh them things are terrible. They stood on flatbeds there just like a rifle. Interviewer: Yeah. Veteran: They can be on a hill a mile away and shoot like a rifle. Interviewer: Yeah. Well, they can shoot a very long distance. �82 Veteran: Yep. Well, they came after—that missed me, that shot missed me about…like just about 3 or 4 feet. Interviewer: Right. Veteran: Well… Interviewer: Did the shell explode or did it just go by and take the leg with it? Veteran: Well, it went—must—it didn’t explode. Interviewer: Okay. Veteran: It must have been shot with a regular round, you know, a heavy round. But anyway, they kept firing and they have the double barrel 88s, you know, firing. You’d duck down then get up and all at once there is another shot right behind it. Well, we were going up through this hedgerow, gunning behind. And all the guns in line were going into position by that other side of that town. Well, our gun got caught in that hedgerow. Well, the truck kept going and it rolled that hedgerow just like a coil until it let go. (02:16:51) Veteran: And but they kept firing. The Germans kept after us. Well, they had—they hit this next truck to me, this…I was number two gun and that gun was number three. And they hit the back end of number three gun and killed four or three guys and left I don’t know how many wounded. Well, and so, I am back behind this hedgerow. I just managed to get back there by the hedgerow. And I am looking out and there’s a guy laying in the bloodiest broken arm right here. Or bloodies—every time his heart beat, it would squirt up in the air. I knew that he couldn’t live very long. So, I didn’t know what I could use for a tourniquet. So, I thought well, I got my belt �83 on, I’ll get that. So, I put—I slipped my belt on that guy shot with a—almost cut in two. That’s where it went. But I run out there and I took my—that…everybody gets that’s sulfa to spread on wounds. Interviewer: Right. (02:18:41) Veteran: I don’t know what they call it but anyway, I took that and put it against that vein and then took my belt and wrapped it around and I got the blood to stop. And I grabbed him and picked him up. And he was a big man. And I brought him to the edge of the hedgerow anyway and I stayed there until the medics come and got him. And a few days later, we were still in the same position and the ambulance stopped and they are looking for me. So, somebody pointed out to a medic. The driver came over to me and he had my belt. Interviewer: Oh… Veteran: And he brought it back. This guy, his name was Lonnie Hughes. Well, he said, “Vern’s pants will be falling off,” he said. So, I had already got a rope and I had this rope tied around my pants. But… Interviewer: Okay. So, did that man survive? The man you helped; did he survive? (02:20:02) Veteran: Oh yes, he did. Yeah. Interviewer: Okay. Alright. Veteran: Yep. �84 Interviewer: Okay. I think now…I think that’s going to be a wrap. So, I am glad we were able to add those stories. (02:20:17) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ErskineV2352V Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Erskine, Vernon L. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2020-02 Title A name given to the resource Erskine, Vernon (Interview transcript and video), 2020 Description An account of the resource Vern Erskine was born in Allenville, Michigan in 1921. He attended and graduated high school in St. Ignace, Michigan. He was drafted to the Army in the fall of 1942 and was required to report for duty at Camp Grant, Illinois. Vern completed his basic training at Camp Livingston, Louisiana. He became part of the artillery in the 1st battalion, 101st regiment, which was attached to the 28th division. Vern was sent overseas to Europe in the fall of 1943 to serve in World War 2. He landed in Normandy 12 days after D-Day. He spent time in Belgium, France, Luxembourg, and Germany. He participated in the Battle of the Bulge. During his time serving in World War 2, he was involved in various skirmishes. Vern was able to meet both General Eisenhower and General Patton while in Europe. He left Europe in the fall of 1945 to return to the U.S. After discharging from the military, Vern returned home to Michigan where he currently lives with his family. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States—History, Military Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975—Personal narratives, American Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/dffc29bb5c6001948863470a52c83108.m4v 790658918a58d424f83b312b3fca5229 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ad68db824e7fb0fd51f3d46389a4419f.pdf 5a557bc1ad4549bb2f1be8b050579641 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans’ History Project Louis Kayo Erwin Sr. World War II 1 hour 9 minutes 23 seconds (00:00:38) Early Life -Born in Dayton, Tennessee, on March 1, 1925 -Moved to Chattanooga, Tennessee when he was 16 years old -Parents got a divorce when he was young -Lived with his mother and grandparents in Big Spring, Tennessee -Grew up on a farm -Picked cotton and corn -It was hard work and busy, but a great experience -Grandfather had a grist mill -Ground corn for other farmers, took a small cut as payment -Put “shoes” on mules -It was hard living because of the Great Depression, but they survived -Raised hogs for meat -Farm allowed them to be self-sufficient -Sold their cotton and tobacco -Had an orchard -Provided them with fruit for canning and jellies -Had no electricity or gas lines -Used oil lamps for light and wood for heat and cooking -Used their cellar to keep perishables cool, and a smokehouse to preserve meat -Got up at 5 a.m. every day -No radio (00:07:00) Enlisting in the Navy Pt. 1 -Moved to Chattanooga, Tennessee, when he was 16 years old -Older brother joined the Marines -Served with the 1st Marines Division in the South Pacific -Louis joined the Navy to be closer with his brother -Older brother contracted malaria and was evacuated to Australia -Survived the war and is still alive as of 2016 (00:09:57) Start of the War -Had a paper route in Chattanooga -Learned about the attack on Pearl Harbor when he was throwing papers -Remembers recruitment posters being put up at the Post Office (00:10:54) Enlisting in the Navy Pt. 2 -Enlisted in the Navy when he was 17 years old, on December 20, 1942 -Sent to Nashville for an entrance exam (00:11:22) Basic Training -Sent to San Diego for basic training on December 26, 1942 -It was difficult -Taught discipline and responsibility -Took swimming tests -Had to swim two laps, then remove pants and use them as a flotation device �-Did drills and went on five-mile marches -Anxious about when he received orders, and where he received orders -Navy needed crewmen for its ships (00:13:10) Assignment to the USS Bunker Hill & the USS Indianapolis -Initially received orders for the USS Bunker Hill, then received orders for the USS Indianapolis -The Bunker Hill was an aircraft carrier and the Indianapolis was a heavy cruiser -Taken by ship to the USS Bunker Hill at Pearl Harbor -Stayed in a barracks in a pineapple field until the Bunker Hill arrived at Pearl Harbor -Assigned to the deck division (5 inch guns) on the Bunker Hill -Received orders for the USS Indianapolis while he was on the USS Bunker Hill -Didn’t matter to him which ship he served on -Liked the idea of serving on a heavy cruiser -USS Indianapolis had 8 inch guns, 5 inch guns, 40mm guns, 20mm guns, and .50 caliber guns -Joined the Indianapolis in late April/early May 1943 -After the Indianapolis aided with the liberation of the Aleutian Islands -Note: The Indianapolis didn’t get to Hawaii until August 1943, but he may have received orders for the USS Indianapolis in early summer 1943. (00:17:28) Invasion of Tarawa -First major operation he participated in was the invasion of Tarawa in November 1943 -Remembers planes and ships bombarding the island for five or six days -Stripped the island of its vegetation -The Indianapolis had two catapult planes to spot targets and coordinate the ship’s guns -Note: Catapult planes: Smaller aircraft launched from the ship via catapults -On the day of the invasion, November 20, he saw multitudes of landing craft approaching the island -Craft got stuck on the coral reef, forcing marines to wade ashore under machine gun fire (00:19:50) Major Pacific Campaigns & The Invasion of Okinawa -Participated in the following campaigns: -Gilbert & Marshall Islands Campaign (included Tarawa): November 1943 – February 1944 -The Mariana Islands Campaign: June 1944 – November 1944 -Battle of Saipan -Battle of Tinian -Liberation of Guam -In February 1945, the Indianapolis participated in the bombardment of Iwo Jima -On March 24, 1945, the Indianapolis began its participated in the bombardment of Okinawa -On March 31, a kamikaze hit the Indianapolis -The attack killed 9 and wounded 38 (00:20:26) Repairs & Secret Mission -Following the kamikaze attack, the USS Indianapolis sailed to California for repairs -After repairs, the Indianapolis received orders for a secret mission to Tinian -Went to Hunters Point Naval Shipyard, California, to get the atomic bomb components -Departed from Hunters Point on July 16, 1945 -They arrived at Tinian and successfully unloaded the components on July 26, 1945 -From Tinian they sailed to Guam, and left Guam on July 28 (00:21:15) Sinking of the USS Indianapolis Pt. 1 -After leaving Guam they had orders to sail to Leyte in the Philippines -At 12:14 a.m. on July 30, the Japanese submarine I-58 torpedoed and sank the USS Indianapolis -For the next four days and five nights, the survivors were stranded in shark-infested waters -300 men went down with the ship, and another 583 men died in the water -Only 317 crewmen survived �(00:21:50) Survival -The life jackets they had were only good for 72 hours -Louis swam away from the ship once he jumped overboard -Last he saw of the ship was its fantail in the air and its propellers still turning -Joined a group of 250 men (Dr. Haynes’s group) -Only 56 of those men survived long enough to be rescued -Men started to hallucinate from drinking the saltwater -Imagined the ship rising to the surface, an ice cream stand, a beer vendor, hotels -Men died as a result of shark attacks, exposure, salt poisoning and thirst -Heard men screaming at night due to sharks attacking them -The goal of getting home and seeing his family again kept him alive -Had nothing to eat or drink -Saw high-altitude aircraft fly over, but they were too high to see them -Most of the men were covered in oil which also made them hard to spot in the water -The saltwater and life jacket rubbed his skin raw -Sharks came by every day -When they did, he held up his legs to keep them away from the sharks -Felt them brush his legs, and most of the time the sharks were only five or six feet away -At first, men splashed to try and scare off the sharks -Unfortunately, the sharks mistook the splashing as fish and came closer -During the day he prayed for night to cool off, and at night he prayed for the day to warm up -Covered in engine oil -Took off his pants because they added extra weight and pulled him down -Saved his socks so he could wet them and put them on his face to stay cool -When they dried they left behind salt residue which burned his skin -He would dip them in the water and put them back on his face to get relief (00:28:28) Rescue -On August 2 he saw Lt. Gwinn and Lt. Colwell’s PV-1 Ventura -They were the first to discover the survivors -They flew low, and signaled that they had seen the survivors and would go for help -Lt. Marks flew to the scene in his PBY and, despite contrary orders, landed to aid the survivors -Brought men aboard, and once the plane was full he tied men to the wings -Louis was one of the 56 men to go aboard Lt. Marks’s PBY -One of the ship’s doctors distributed freshwater to the survivors on the PBY -Each man was allowed two sips of water, then passed it onto the next man -When the cup was emptied it would be refilled -The USS Cecil J. Doyle arrived on the scene to pick up the survivors -Most of the men were too weak to climb the rope ladder on the side of the ship -Used rubber rafts to transport them from water or the PBY to the ship -Brought the survivors and the crew of Lt. Marks aboard the Cecil J. Doyle -Once everyone was aboard they sank the PBY -Weight of the survivors damaged the plane making it impossible to fly -Once aboard, they washed off the engine oil -The crewmen of the Cecil J. Doyle gave their bunks to the Indianapolis survivors (00:34:19) Recovery & End of the War -Louis and other survivors were brought to the island of Peleliu -Stayed in the hospital there for four or five days -Survivors placed on board the USS Tranquility (a hospital ship) -Brought to Hospital 18 on Guam �-On August 16 he and the other survivors heard about the atomic bombs and Japan’s surrender -Told that they had transported the components for the bombs that helped end the war -The survivors cheered when they learned that the war was over -Given buckets of ice cream to help regain weight -One of his friends, Ed Brown, also survived the sinking -They stayed friends after the war (00:39:17) Sinking of the USS Indianapolis Pt. 2 -He had just got off watch at midnight and laid down in his hammock when the first torpedo hit -Second torpedo knocked him out of bed -He ran to the port (left) side of the ship and began cutting down life jackets and passing them out -When it became apparent that the ship was going down, he jumped overboard and swam away -Last he saw of the ship was its fantail in the air and its propellers still turning -It sank after only 12 minutes (00:41:08) Coming Home -Came back to the United States on the USS Hollandia with other survivors once he recovered -Landed at San Diego -Greeted by Red Cross personnel -Survivors were thrown a parade -Men ran up to them and handed them glasses of beer -Issued new clothing -Given 30 days of leave -Went home to Chattanooga (00:42:53) End of Service -Needed 44 points to be discharged -Points awarded based on rank, dependents, length of service, and combat seen -Sent to Nashville to receive further orders -Assigned to Naval Amphibious Base Coronado, California for amphibious training -Sent to Naval Amphibious Base Coronado and a few weeks later he was offered a discharge -He said yes to being discharged -Had originally planned on making a 20 year career out of the Navy -After the sinking of the USS Indianapolis he changed his mind -He went to Memphis and was discharged there -Most likely in fall or winter 1945 (00:44:28) Captain McVay -Never interacted with Captain McVay, but Louis saw him a lot -Knew that Captain McVay, some sailors, and some Marines got on a life raft -Never saw them after the sinking because they drifted in a different direction (00:46:08) Father Thomas Conway -Saw Father Thomas Conway in the water among the survivors -Father Conway checked to see which men had died -He collected their dog tags, performed Last Rites, and removed their life jacket -Father Conway died on August 2, just a few hours before Lt. Gwinn/Lt. Colwell spotted them (00:48:00) Court-martial of Captain McVay -In the hospital, he and the other survivors were ordered to write a letter about the sinking -Their position at the time of the sinking, their actions, and general experience -In the years after the war, Captain McVay put together two survivors’ reunions -In 1968, Louis learned about Captain McVay’s court-martial and suicide -Court-martial happened in November 1945 -Found guilty of losing the USS Indianapolis �-Only time an American captain was tried for losing his ship in wartime -Used as a scapegoat for the Navy -After years of guilt, Captain McVay committed suicide in 1968 -In 2001, Captain McVay was exonerated and the court-martial removed from his record -Felt hurt that Captain McVay was tried and found guilty -He was a fine captain and did everything he possibly could -Note: Commander Hashimoto of the I-58 said Cpt. McVay couldn’t have avoided the torpedoes -He was a good man and he gladly served under him (00:50:10) Life after the War -Got married on May 4, 1946 -Married for 62 years -Had a son and a daughter -Worked for a brewer for three years -Got a job with a beer distribution company -Drove truck for them for seven years -Worked as a manager for 28 years -Has five great-grandchildren (00:54:45) Public Awareness of the USS Indianapolis Pt. 1 -The movie, Jaws, was the first major public exposure of the sinking of the USS Indianapolis -People started to ask him about the sinking after seeing the movie -He saw the movie -Captain Quint’s story about the sinking was pretty accurate (00:56:12) Reunions -Went to the first survivors’ reunion in 1960 -Remembers the men saluting Captain McVay when he arrived -May have given Captain McVay a ride to the reunion from the airport, but doesn’t remember (00:56:53) Exoneration of Captain McVay -Wonderful news when he heard about Captain McVay’s exoneration in 2001 -Survivors tried so hard, for so long to get his record cleared -Sorry that Captain McVay wasn’t alive to see it happen -Feels that the hate mail he received contributed to his suicide in 1968 (00:57:55) Public Awareness of the USS Indianapolis Pt. 2 -Believes that people didn’t pay attention to the Indianapolis because it happened at the end of the war -Media focused on the end of the war -Feels that Hunter Scott (an 11 year old student), brought attention to the sinking -Also helped with Captain McVay’s exoneration -Reunions help with public awareness -Survivors didn’t talk about the sinking until other people started asking about it -Finds that people still tend to confuse the Indianapolis with the USS Arizona (sunk at Pearl Harbor) -Believes that the sinking of the Indianapolis should be part of the US history curriculum -He goes to schools to talk about the sinking -Thinks that Sara Vladic’s documentary will bring awareness to the sinking -Glad the someone took such an interest in the USS Indianapolis -He was interviewed by National Geographic about the sinking (01:05:58) Search for the Wreck -At the 70th anniversary reunion, Robert Ballard expressed interest in searching for the wreck -Famous for discovering the wreck of the Titanic -Louis hopes that Dr. Ballard can find it and see what, if anything, is left of the ship -Also get some closure about the remains of the men that went down with the ship �(01:07:42) USS Indianapolis Memorial -Interviewer plans on erecting an Indianapolis memorial in Lansing, Michigan -Commemorating the 50 Michigan sailors that served on the USS Indianapolis -Hopes it will bring more public awareness about the sinking � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ErwinL1950V Title A name given to the resource Erwin, Louis (Interview outline and video), 2016 Description An account of the resource Louis Kayo Erwin Sr. was born in Dayton, Tennessee, on March 1, 1925. He grew up in Dayton then on a farm in Big Spring, Tennessee. When he was 16 he moved to Chattanooga, Tennessee, and enlisted in the Navy when he was 17 years old. He enlisted on December 20, 1942, and on December 26 he shipped out for basic training in San Diego. Louis initially received orders for the aircraft carrier USS Bunker Hill. He stayed on the Bunker Hill until summer 1943 when he joined the USS Indianapolis. He saw action at Tarawa, Saipan, Tinian, Guam, and Iwo Jima. In March 1945 the Indianapolis was struck by a kamikaze forcing them to return to the US for repairs. In July 1945 they received orders for a secret mission. On July 16, 1945, the atomic bomb components were loaded onto the USS Indianapolis at Hunters Point Naval Shipyard and they delivered the components on July 26, 1945 at Tinian. On July 30, the I-58 torpedoed and sank the USS Indianapolis. Louis and the other survivors had to endure exposure, shark attacks, and saltwater poisoning. On August 2 a seaplane spotted the survivors and they were rescued. Louis and only 316 other crewmen survived. After recovering on Peleliu and Guam he returned to the United States. He briefly served at Naval Amphibious Base Coronado before being discharged in late 1945. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Erwin, Louis Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Hammond, Steve (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Navy Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="http://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-09-10 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives