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                    <text>OCTOBER 30 &amp; 31, 1993
BOWEN FIEW HOUSE
YPSII.ANTL MI
3RD

ANNUAL

EASTERN MICHIGAN UNIVERSITY

Honor The Anishinabe

Native American dancing _and
singing, food booths, and fine arts
and crafts for sale.

~¥·
EMU Multicultural Center
216 Goodison Hall
(313) 487-2377

�/EAS1!JEJRH

ltl!ICJIIIIGAH

lUHll'f!Elll.SD1l'"'r

EMU MULTICULTURAL CENTER
PRESENTS
3RD ANNUAL
HONOR THE ANISHINABE
COMPETITION POW POW
AT BOWEN FIElD HOUSE ON THE EMU CAMPUS

ADMISSIONS
GATES OPEN AT 11:00 A.M.
$ 3.00 ELDERS
$ 6.00 ADULTS
$ 3.00 STUDENTS

FREE

CHILDREN

GRAND ENTRIES
SATURDAY 1:00 P.M.
SUNDAY
1:00 P.M.

7:00 P.M.

FEATURING
CLITO MA TELANGO

FRANK BUSH

MASTER OF CEREMONIES

HEAD VETERAN

SMOKEY TOWN

THURMAN BEAR

HOST DRUM

ARENA DIRECTOR

KEVIN GASKO

MAJEL DEMARSH

HEAD DANCERS

TOM AND BEA PETERS
COMPETITION JUDGES

PRIZES GIVEN THROUGH 3RD PLACE
(EXTRA PLACINGS AT JUDGES DISCRETION)
DRUM COMPETITION
DANCE CATEGORIES
MA1.E - GRASS, FANCY, TRADITIONAL
FEMALE - JINGLE DRESS, FANCY SHAWL, TRADITIONAL
CHILDREN - SAME CATEGORIES AS ADULTS

FOR INFORMATION
TRADERS CALL (313) 282-9313
ALL OTHERS CALL (313) 487-2377 (EMU MULTICULTURAL CENTER)

�</text>
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                    <text>Living with PFAS
Interviewer: Danielle DeVasto
Interviewee: Alan Eberlein
Date of Interview: 2022-11-29
Danielle DeVasto: I'm Dani DeVasto, and today, November 29, 2022, I have the pleasure of chatting
[BANG SOUND] with Al Eberlein. Hi, Al.
Al Eberlein: Hello.
Danielle DeVasto: Thank you for having me over to your house today. Um, Al, can you tell me where
you're from, [CLICK SOUND] and, um, let's start with that. Where are you from?
Al Eberlein: Right here in Rockford, born and raised.
Danielle DeVasto: All right. So you've been here a long time.
Al Eberlein: Yep. I grew up as a child on Myers Lake and went to Rockford Public Schools and then
resided within a couple miles of town, or in town, my entire life.
Danielle DeVasto: That's truly something. As someone who's moved around a lot, I wish that I could—
Al Eberlein: Which is more the norm now than not.
Danielle DeVasto: Unfortunately, yeah. Um, Al, would you tell me a story about your experience with
PFAS or with PFAS in your community, please?
Al Eberlein: Well, it's a funny thing because it's an unfolding story, right? And I lived through it, not
knowing I was living through it for many years. Like I said, uh, went to Rockford schools, went to the
junior high school and the high school here. Um, lived around, uh, Rockford, uh, for a number of years.
Um, uh, my first home was a- a mobile homesite, uh, at Algoma Estates, [CLEARING THROAT] which I
lived with several years after I was married in 1980, with my wife, Lori, and, um, as we were discussing
earlier, uh, lo and behold in future years, I found out—and we always knew that it was something not
quite right about the water there, uh, but we were close to the 12-mile dump because Algoma's off of 13
mile, and the 12-mile dump was, you know, backed up to that. And, um, [LIP SMACK] so I'm sure that we
were probably drinking water that wasn't too great then. And, uh, we had our, uh, first child, um, there, uh,
when we lived in Algoma Estates, Matthew, uh, in 1982. And, um, it was a- it was, um, [LIP SMACK] a
strange birth. Matthew was, uh, born with what they described as immature lung- lung syndrome that you
nor- normally don't experience unless a child is, like, two months early. His lungs were that bad or worse,
but Matthew was full term. He was almost eight-pound baby, and they said they never had seen that
before. Um, so, consequently, he almost died. Um, he was in neonatal unit in Grand Rapids, for two
weeks and, um, he did pink up right away. For hours and hours after he was born, he was purple and, uh,
he pulled out of it miraculously, um, [LIP SMACK] but consequently, uh, it left him with a lot of problems.
He had episodes of schizophrenia, uh, odd, uh, feelings in his body, like his spirit was half out of his body.
Um, uh, we tried some therapy with, uh, Wellbutrin and, um, [NOISE] Ritalin to try to help him, uh, control
his thoughts, but they didn't work for him. Um, so anyhow, uh, they barely got him—kept him mainstream
through, uh, grade school, and once he was junior high, and after, he ended up in special ed and
unfortunately kids like Matthew, they fall through the cracks. They're not bad enough to be, you know,
Page 1

�sent off to Kenosha, or something, but they're—they try to mainstream 'em, and they have a couple hours
in special ed and put 'em in a regular class, and they're, you know, how children can be cruel and- and it
was a terrible experience. Um, he was a very melancholy child and, uh—because by the time he got to
high school, uh, he started self-medicating with alcohol, dropped outta school, and we didn't even keep
alcohol in our house, but he sought out his own medication. And, um, consequently, he died at 24 years
old, uh, from alcoholism. Well, like I say, he was born in, uh, '82. In 1986, we tried again for a child, uh,
Christopher. And so we moved back into town in—before he was born—
Danielle DeVasto: Into Rockford?
Al Eberlein: — into Rockford, on Lewis Street, on the Wolverine plat, north of town, in an older home,
and so that my wife could afford to stay home with the baby. And so consequently, Christopher was born
a little early, not a lot, a little, and he was rather small birth weight, he's—but not terrible. He was about
six pounds, and they thought he was normal at the- uh, at the moment he was born, but it quickly became
apparent that he was not thriving, and they couldn't figure it out. Finally, after about a month or so, a
geneticist in Grand Rapids, said, "Um, [CLICK SOUND] I can't tell you what's wrong with your son, but I'm
heavily suspicioning that there's something wrong with him, genetically. Um, I think you should go to
Chicago, uh, Children's Hospital." So we took Christopher down there five different times, and they did
studies, and actually they did workups on Christopher. Uh, he's actually in a journal someplace. They
took, uh, pictures of him, and he was very unusual and the best determination that they could come up
with is they said, "Well, he sort of like neonatal renoleukodystrophy," and I go, what in the world is that?
And they said, "Well, that's [CLICK SOUND] where the protozoa in the cell structure is low, and the ones
that are there are deformed." So what does that mean? Well, the body does not have a good capability of
dealing with heavy metals, like, uh, copper and so forth. And so as the months went by, all this kinda built
up in his brain and damaged his brain. He lost his eyesight and, uh, he didn't thrive. He didn't get nutrition
out of food well, and, um, they said he would only live two months, but, um, we loved him and took care of
him, ended up having to feed him with a stomach tube, and we kept him alive for two years and two
months, and gave him the best life that we could give him. But I remember them saying this towards the
end of- of the time that we went to Chicago, at the Children's Hospital, and they said, "You know, there's
several different kinds," that they had, uh, described at the time of- of that disease, but they said,
"Christopher's really not like any of them, he's like his own thing." There again, both with Matthew and
with Christopher, nothing remotely like this in my wife's family history, our family history. This was just
crazy stuff out of the blue. So [SIGH] my daughter, Sarah, was born in 1992, and, uh, she was, uh, it
seemed to be a normal pregnancy, and then all of a sudden my wife started having trouble and, uh,
Sarah came, uh, two months and two weeks early. And, um, anyhow, trying to keep a long story shorter,
[CHUCKLE] um, we, uh, you know, we, of course we were worried about these other things and, um, but I
had a month old. They said, "Well, you know," they- they were worried about the Christopher disease, the
neonatal renoleukodystrophy, but it- it didn't seem to, uh, manifest itself. And we don't know why she was
born early. We don't know why she was red when she came out, but, um, she seems to be doing better

Page 2

�now. So Sarah grew into a nice, healthy, young lady and, um, she got married at 21, and shortly
thereafter, um, she got pregnant for my granddaughter. Well, my granddaughter's, uh, pregnancy seemed
to be normal, and, um, along about six or seven months pregnant, my daughter said, "Dad," she goes,
"Something's wrong. I'm just profoundly tired." And of course they checked out her iron and all the-, you
know, the normal things, and, "We can't find anything wrong and your blood pressure's okay, you know,
we just, you know, probably some people just get more tired than others, you know, during." She goes,
"But dad," she says, "They're not listening to me. This is profound. I can hardly keep my eyes open." Lo
and behold, the day that her water broke, and she went in for labor, she started hemorrhaging, and I
mean, profuse blood loss. And she actually almost died twice, and they were pumping fluids into her,
plasma, trying to keep her alive. And, uh, she basically died twice, and it was, uh, a rare form of, uh,
HELLP syndrome. There again, no sign of it, neither side of the family. And, um, [CLICK SOUND] she
actually saw her gr—, uh, deceased grandfather in the room, smiling at her, waiting for her to come to
heaven with her- with him, but they pulled her through. And by-by golly, they saved my granddaughter,
and they said for that to happen right at birth, it's almost very unlikely that both of 'em were to live.They
said usually if you can save one or the other, [CHIME SOUND] you've done—you've had a good day, and
they saved them both. My daughter was very weak. It took her over a year to get back on her feet. Uh,
psychologically it did something to her because she still gets tired. I think it's mental. I think it's mentally
tired. Um, it- it- it really goes deep into you. So anyhow, my granddaughter, we thought she was perfect,
you know, beautiful little girl, and, um, went in for a two-month checkup, and they says, "You need to see
a specialist. Something is wrong with her." And you know, here, my first son, second son, my daughter,
and now my granddaughter, oh, what's wrong? "Well, we think she's not seeing good, and you need to
see a specialist." Well, unfortunately my son-in-law was in the Navy, and he said, "Well, we're about
ready to move." And my daughter, he was gonna deploy outta San Diego, and my daughter was coming
back here with my granddaughter, uh, while he deployed for six months. [SNEEZE] Well, God bless
Helen DeVos Hospital because they got down to brass tacks and figured it out quite quickly. What they
missed is that she had cataracts in her eyes, but they weren't normal, I say_ normal cataracts that are
more visible on the outside of the eye. These were deep with inside the eye. And they said it was rather
unusual. And, uh, so they operated on her, got the cataracts out, and here she's just a lit—by this time, I
think Natalie was five months old, and, it's so hard to have, when children to have to have operations right
off the bat, it's—and she, you know, suffered through that. And then they, [CLEAR THROAT] she had
these really thick glasses that we tried to put on her, and, um, also we had to force contacts into her eyes
so that she could have enough imagery, you know, but still be fuzzy, but that she could—her mind could
develop. And, um, that got actually very arduous 'cause by six, seven months old, she could fight back,
and I actually had to leave the house because she would scream and fight not to have those contacts
forced in her eyes. Well, they can't put lenses in a little baby's eyes right away, 'cause the eyes are too
small. And they said, "We would like to wait at least till six, five, six years old." [NOTIFICATION SOUND]
Excuse me, we will delay that message.

Page 3

�Danielle DeVasto: Would you like me to pause?
Al Eberlein: That's uh, that was my daughter. [LAUGHTER] She must have knew I was talking about her.
Danielle DeVasto: She must have felt it. [LAUGHTER]
Al Eberlein: So consequently uh, they—we had to wait till she was over two years old to put lenses in.
So my beautiful little granddaughter, so she ended up having six surgeries all together. And they put the
lenses in finally, and oh, what a joyous day that was, and the next day. All of a sudden, my granddaughter
discovered going outside and said, "Oh, grandpa, look at the clouds," and she could see relatively clearly
for the first time. And- and uh, we were so happy and overjoyed for her after all the torment she went
through, and we could see her starting to regress. We could see her starting to act like she did before,
when she didn't see good and straining her eyes. And so we called up and said, "Well, you better bring
her back in." And so we took her back in and, um, they said, "Oh, we got bad news. Her eyes are
rejecting the implants." And I said, I thought you said this, eyes, that this material- material you use, that
the body doesn't reject, and they says, "For some reason, hers is." So they had to take the- the, uh,
implanted lenses back out. And that was one of the worst days of my life, right up there with my two sons
dying. And sh—I wheeled her out to the car, and she balled all the way out going, "Grandpa, I can't see, I
can't see." And I go, oh honey, I says, we're gonna fix it, hoping that we could. Well, we—the doctors had
a form online just to see if any other eye doctor in the nation, and even other countries, had any
suggestions because Helen DeVos had run out of ideas, and that's a bad place to be. So we had
everybody praying. [LIP SMACK] One man, I'd like to meet him someday, I'd like to know who he was,
one man responded, and he said, "I had a- an adult patient once that had that exact thing happen." And
this was one particular, really strong steroid, he says that worked for her. He said, "I've never used it on a
child," but he says, "You don't have anything to lose." So we did it, and by golly, it worked. And so she's
been progressing. She has to come every six months and be checked out, but from that second set of
lenses, um, her- her eyesight has held and uh, you know, every time she gets checked though, you know,
we've had so much trouble and turmoil that you always kinda tighten up a little bit, you know, and they
come back and say, "Oh, her eyesight's even a little bit better," and I go, oh, thank God, you know. But,
yeah, so my experience, you know, is—in our life is two sons with strange diseases that died, my
daughter that almost died, and her daughter that almost died and almost lost her eyesight. So to find
out—so like I said, it's like an unfolding story, right? We—I lived through all this when we know that in the
'70s and '80s, and so forth, that the PFAS was being dispersed all over. And one thing that doesn't get
talked a lot about, this river out here, the whole bed of that river that I—you dig down in that mud, and I'll
guarantee it's got layers of PFAS in it. Our water, city water here in Rockford that, well, there's about
4,500 of us now that live here, they were getting all the city water out of the Rockford Rogue River. Who's
talking about that? The water that I drank in high school and junior high school, and that I drank living all
the decades that I lived here in town. Yeah, it was a horrible thing they did, burying it out in the
countryside, and I have relatives that got poisoned by that. But in hindsight, and working at Wolverine

Page 4

�Worldwide for 31 years and seeing how they used that strike to try to close the tannery down, I believe
was nefarious that they wanted to cover up their sin.
Danielle DeVasto: Can you—do you want to say anything more about the strike?
Al Eberlein: About the strike?
Danielle DeVasto: Yeah.
Al Eberlein: Yeah.
Danielle DeVasto: Or your experience at Wolverine?
Al Eberlein: Well, my grandfather worked—my great-grandfather worked at Wolverine for 54 years.
Nobody ever worked there longer than him. He was hired by Otto Krause back in 1903, when it was
family own. And you know how it was back in these—that—those days of small towns and, you know,
Wolverine was a big business, see, I mean even then for a small town, and, um, my grandfather went to
work there at 16 years old. You know, times were hard back then. There wasn't safety nets, you know,
and, um, people were glad to have a good job. He could walk to work. He lived on Main Street. His
grandson, my cousin, still lives in the same house that my great-grandfather lived in. And, um, when
times were hard, um, uh, in- during the depression, uh, several times Otto Krause came and said, 'Boys,
I- I don't have money for payroll," but he says, uh, he said, "If you stick with me," he says, "I'll gladly pay
ya in company stock." And my grandfather held onto that stock his whole life, and it divided. And, uh, my
grandmother inherited a portion of it, and she gave it to all of us, her grandkids, that came from my greatgrandfather. You know, it was, like, a heritage. And you felt good about—we felt good about Wolverine
back in those days, you know, in the old days. And, um, geez, half my relatives worked at the company.
You know, it was a stepping stone company that a lot of people—my mother worked there in the office for
a year or two, you know, to help buy a new car. You know, it was nice to have a big company that, you
know, could facilitate and help out the local community, and everybody always felt good about it. And, uh,
when I first started working there, uh, in the early '70s, um, there was still a—Wolverine was corporate by
then. It went corporate, I believe in the '50s. And—but there was still, you know, oldtimers that- that
worked there. There was—I remember one old guy that remembered my great-grandfather, you know,
'cause my grandfather worked till 1957, from '03. I started working there in- in '72, and I worked there 31
years, but I- I remember, oh, I remember your grandpa, Platton, you know, and- and just that continuity,
you know, of community and the work and the pride that our little town, you know, is known worldwide for
Hush Puppy shoes. And I personally—I was the dye maker. I- I made, uh, [SNIFFLE] I made dyes that
made shoes for, uh, Shaquille O'Neal. [LAUGHTER] You know, hi- his personal loafers, you know, and I
thought, you know, I made, uh, I made running shoes when- when we owned Brook's, uh, Running Shoe.
I made running shoes for Greg Myers, you know, and- and you had pride in that, in- in our little town, you
know, that all this wonderful stuff coming out of our little town and from my perspective, the way that, and
this is my opinion, you know, this is the way I perceive it, but that because of PFAS and corporate greed,
that they didn't have any problem covering it up, even though it was still currently poisoning people. When
3M told Wolverine in the '90s, that this stuff causes cancer and childhood, uh, diseases and maladies,

Page 5

�okay, now I just gave you my testimony about all the childhood maladies that me and my sisters and my
brother, who never had any children, he did end up adopting, uh, boy, that's a lot of damage. And for
them, that's at the point in the late '90s, where I have a bone to pick with Wolverine Worldwide because
they had to be forced to make penance for what they did to the people out in the countryside. How about
people like me that lived in this town most of my life in or around the town and all of my—two of my sons
are in heaven. You know, I got a—my daughter almost died and had extreme trouble. My granddaughter
almost was blind. I mean, I could say if I wanted to be bitter person, I could say you owe me at least a
million dollars. I know I'll never get—that would just be a token. That would be a token, you know? But,
no, I'll tell you the strike was—so what happened. You see all this was happening at the same time. 3M
tells Wolverine Worldwide, oh yeah, you know that stuff's bad. So what do you do? Did you come clean?
No, you tried to cover it up. That's what you tried to do. And I believe with all my heart and that's why, you
know, there's times in life I- I didn't like my career, I loved my career. I loved the people I worked with, you
know, and you made my life a living hell by your corruptness, you know. And like they always say, even,
like, with Watergate, the coverup is even worse. If you said, "Oh, we didn't know back in the '70s, and
'80s, that this Scotchgard and all this stuff was so bad, oh, geez, you know, and that we went out to
farmer John and paid him 40 bucks or whatever to dump it in his back acres," you know, "Oh, what can
we do to, what can we do to make it right?" No, you didn't care about making it right. You cared about
covering up your sin. They recorded their 12th record profit that year that they drove us out on strike. And
why do I say drive us out on strike? Because they came to us with a proposal. They wanted to take a
dollar an hour away from us across the board, a dollar an hour. Well, listen folks, I was their dye maker.
I'd been their dye maker for 31 years, saving all their shows for 'em and everything, and I never made- I
never made $18 an hour. So it wasn't that we were so greatly paid, and I'll tell you what, those guys down
there, you know, I don't know what the average wage was, but I know a lot of those guys, their base pay
was, you know, $13, $14 an hour, and if they worked real hard in that stinky place that, you know, they
could make 125% sometimes on piece rate, but they worked hard in horrible conditions, horrible
conditions. And they want to take a dollar an hour away from us while they were posting their 12th record
quarter in a row. [BANG SOUND] Do you see how egregious that is? Well, geez, who would do
something like that? Who- who would risk throwing away people? I- I, like I said, 31 years, that was on
the- the small side of things. Man- many of those guys had 38, 40, 42 years. One guy had 45 years in
there as a loyal employee, and they were throwing us away like yesterday's news. Who would do
something like that? Oh, yeah, I can see a motive. Somebody that has a greater sin, they're trying to
cover up, that's who would do something like that. That's exactly who would [BANG SOUND] do
something like that. And you know, back then [SNIFFLE] we didn't- we didn't understand the PFAS thing
in- in 2003. We didn't really understand what was going on yet, but we knew just by our innate common
sense that something was terribly wrong. Something was terribly, terribly wrong. And so we stayed out on
strike and I think we kinda surprised them. And we thought, well maybe when they see we've been out for
five or six weeks, and of course, you know, Wolverine's a large company and that's gonna start hurting,

Page 6

�hurt- hurt the profit, right? They still didn't care. I remember hearing they- they hired, uh, replacement
workers. They said, yeah, we don't need you guys. And they- they kept going all through the summer and
into the early fall. Well, we heard news that, um, they received back, I believe, now don't take this
verbatim, but I think it was around 170,000 to 180,000 pair of boots, boots or shoes, because of inferior
leather, because the replacement workers were not paying 00:27:42 ___________. Did they end the
strike there? Did they try to come back to us and say, okay, okay, forget that taking a dollar an hour away,
we'll give everybody, uh, 50 cents and next year you get a quarter, and we'll keep everybody happy? No.
No, they were bald face as ever. No, not dealing with you. Went all the way past Christmas. And they
came the day after Christmas and said, "Well, we'll take a third or so of you back." It'd give you, it was a
paltry amount, I forget, 25, 35 cents, but the rest of you are gone, [NOISE] 'cause they still [BANG
SOUND] wanted—had it in mind, they wanted to close that place down. I can't believe anything else. It's
the only thing at that point. Now this is like six, seven months out on strike, and uh, they still wanted to get
rid of us. And I knew I was gone 'cause at that point I'd done—I did an interview with a Christian, uh, radio
station, and I did an interview with TV8 and I says, uh, how much is a man's life worth, 'cause most of
these people, including myself, gave the best years of their life to that place, and they were throwing us
away like yesterday's newspaper. I said, stark fact, while they were making record profit, there again, who
would do such a thing? Hmm, somebody covering up a very large sin, I would propose. So anyhow, yeah,
we had people die. So there, again, I believe they were covering up their sin. They wanted to sh—they
wanted to get us—rid of us quite quickly, I believe. Uh, they wasn't counting on us, um, putting up such a
fight. Of course, that got—that garnered, uh, attention from the powers that be, and because it was so
egregious, the- the ones such as myself that they let go, and they finally did call us back, uh, long about
the end of January, end of February, um, they- the people they let go, they had to, uh, either give a year
of, uh, college or pay half of our wages at a new job for a year to help get us hired 'cause, you know, most
of us were older guys. You know, I mean it- it's a sad fact, you know, there's nowhere in writing,
especially nowadays, if things change so fast now in technology. You're over 50, and you can hardly get
an interview, you know, especially then, things were pretty slow. So anyhow, a lot of us, uh, you know,
got jobs elsewhere, and they took some of the guys back, and they worked them for, I don't know, I- I
think around 2005, or thereabouts, they finally closed it down for good. And I did not get anything 'cause I
was long gone by then, but I heard, and I felt a little bit good about this because we had gotten enough.
We got enough sunlight shined on their darkness that they had, you know, people were watching them at
this point, and I believe that the average person got $17,000 severance pay to, you know, to go
somewhere else, and they had to help 'em out. Um, I was already at another, uh- uh, job shop, so I did
not get any of those benefits, but, uh, [LIP SMACK] anyhow, so that all happened and then just about that
time it starts being un- unveiled of the PFAS problem. And it became more and more apparent what had
happened and that they were covering up this horrible sin of burying this stuff around. Oh, come to find
out they had buried stuff right by the plant. Uh, I had—and afterwards, you know, in hindsight, now you
start looking back and putting the little pieces of the jig pu- jigsaw puzzle together. I had a very dear friend

Page 7

�of mine that used to live right next to the tannery, and he says, "Oh yeah, there was a low area there, and
they were throwing all their hides right in there to fill up the low area, and then once it got full, they, you
know, threw some dirt over it and covered it up." Well, that's one of the, you know, egregious areas that
have been, you know, dug up and taken out of there. But that river is loaded with PFAS, from that plant
sitting there. They said that- that 15 acres that sits down there now, where, you know, they quickly, you
know, tore the tannery down, they were trying to, they almost had a deal going.They were going to try to
build a, um, [LIP SMACK] a, uh, hotel there, if you can imagine. Oh, a lovely hotel on the river, you know?
Quick, cover up our PFAS, but that dirt, there's areas in there that is one of the top toxic sites in the whole
country for PFAS, and it's still sitting there. Now they've done some remediation along the river, but it's
very possible with the way these people operated over the years that there could be other spots in that
river, and I'll guarantee you, out there, how much PFAS over all those years do you think is lying in the
muck of that river? I wouldn't eat one fish out of that river. I want—I had people park behind my house
here in- in Pickett Park, and catching salmon and trout out there all the time, and I almost feel like I
should tell 'em, I won't eat that stuff. That river's loaded with PFAS. And if you go down the river a little bit
farther, the Rockford Paper Mill used to pump stuff. I can remember going behind the Rockford Paper Mill
in- in, uh, the '70s, when I was in junior high school, and there's a pipe about that big, that was pumping
red effluent right out into the river, you know. [NOISE] So we kinda got it at both ends that way, but I
wouldn't eat- I wouldn't eat anything out of that river, you know. So, but let's come back to Rockford. So
our water, until all this was coming out, our strike and, uh, the news of, uh, oh, there's a problem with
PFAS in the early 2000s, well, what about all the people, the thousands of people that lived in the city all
this year, and you fed us PFAS water. How about that? How about people like me that lost two sons andand all my families had childhood maladies, how's about that? [BANG SOUND] Where's the remediation
for that? It would be real easy to be real bitter, but, you know, [SNIFFLE] time does heal to a point, and
you have to go on living, right, and- and you can't live happily as a bitter person, but there is right and
wrong. And I don't think Wolverine Worldwide has, by any means, has gotten to the end of their penance
for what they did. And especially that they chose to do a cover-up and to throw people away that made
their company for 'em because they wanted to cover up a sin. Well, that's a nice way to treat people that
you've been poisoning for 40 years. See, but you have to go on. And so I just, you know, I thank God for
people like you, for people like, no seriously, people like, uh, Lynn McIntyre, that actually care about
people, like Wolverine used to. Oh, yeah, I got some real good memories of Wolverine. I remember when
I first started working there and Tom Gleason would come down, and he wanted anybody that wanted to
shake his hand. He'd look you right in the eyes, and,"Thank you for your service, you know, we truly need
you around here," and maybe even have a cookie or a little holiday drink with you. It used to—it was like
the last vestige of- of a good age. And somewhere in, when we started sending all of our work over to
China, and we became a human resource, it became less and less. And it always happens by shades,
right, less personable, a little less personable, and now all you are is a resource to throw you away like
yesterday's news. And that's the way—it's a bitter pill. I definitely gave Wolverine the best, you know,

Page 8

�my—I say, best years, I— that's not totally true 'cause you- you do think, you hope that you gained some
wisdom, and, you know, and- and I did home care for 10 years and that was a wonderful time in my life.
And I'm glad I did that 'cause it actually was a salvation for me because it really put some, uh, a deeper
meaning back into my life and, uh, really did a lot of healing for how my career at Wolverine ended, with
them trying to cover up their sin, you know, but uh, yeah, PFAS has done a lot of damage physically,
probably mentally, to a lot of people and so on and so forth, but when companies like Wolverine go into
cover-up mode, the mental and spiritual damage that they've done to people, you know, some people
don't have the wherewithal to come back, and I think about those people often. I think I- I know probably a
lot of 'em probably aren't even alive anymore. I- I know that, uh, yeah, there's several people I- I
personally knew. There was a maintenance man down there that died from cancer at 42 years old. My
friend's dad was having back problems, and he worked down there in the tannery, and [BANG SOUND]
so he retired early at 54, only to find out, yeah, his back problems was he was loaded with cancer. And I
think that had been repeated with maladies and cancer, people that worked down there over and over
again, you know, and uh, so I just hope at some point, you know, we keep moving into the future, right,
and then you get into, if I went up to Wolverine now there's probably not even anybody up there that I—
even remembers me, or it's a whole new set of people. And you would- you would hope at some point
they say, okay, you know, we know that our company, you know, probably did some wrong things, did
things the wrong way, and we just- we just want to do whatever it takes to give us that good reputation
again, and- and so forth. But, uh, yeah, I— for—looking back in hindsight over my life, after I knew all the
facts, yeah, PFAS did a lot of damage.
Danielle DeVasto: So then looking forward, what concerns, if any, do you have about PFAS
contamination, moving forward?
Al Eberlein: Well, for one thing, like I said, I believe it's- it's damaged my lineage. How- how long is it- is it
going to keep doing that, you know. Oh, you know, are we still learning? I- I hope the science is- is still
gonna find out more and more of, or how can we head things off at the pass, maybe. Like what happened
to my daughter with th- this rare form of, uh, preeclampsia. How can we get, you know, more proactive
about things like that? And on Wolverine side, I'm not convinced that they've totally come clean yet. I'm
not convinced that that whole river is- is remediated yet. Um, and should people like me that lived here all
my life, you know, is- is there any compensation for us, you know, is there, or- or any, uh, health benefits
or anything? You poisoned this whole town, Wolverine. You poisoned the whole town. Nobody even talks
about it. It's kind of convenient how big business and even, you know, unfortunately gov—you know,
government, city governments, this little town that was all beholding to Wolverine, how they can kowtow
down to money, but just a thought, you poisoned the whole town, the people that made all your money for
you. [BANG SOUND]
Danielle DeVasto: [SIGH] Big thought. Um, [CLEARING THROAT] before we wrap up, is there anything
that we haven't talked about that you'd like to touch on or anything that you want to go back to and say
more about?

Page 9

�Al Eberlein: Well, there's other things I could say, you know, but I better not, you know. I don't want to
get into other people's business, you know. But I'll tell you, like we were talking before you turned the
cameras on, just want anybody that might s—watch this or- or maybe even somebody from Wolverine
that would look in, do you really realize how deeply and generationally that this kind of thing affects
people? And I would think going forward, any good thing comes out of this is that you would double, triple,
quadruple down. Never, ever, ever let anything like this ever happen again [THUMPING] because if we
don't learn that lesson, then what are we doing here? [NOISE]
Danielle DeVasto: Thank you so much, Al, for taking the time to tell your story.
Al Eberlein: You're welcome. And once again, thank you for caring, 'cause we've gone through a lot of
years where it didn't seem like too many people were caring, and I'm glad to meet people such as
yourself and Lynn McIntyre, to know that there are people being vigilant out there, and, um, [LIP SMACK]
and, you know, I mean it's- it's all over, and it's not just one thing. Um, like I said, I grew up on Myers
Lake. They just found out here recently. I mean, I swam in that lake my whole childhood. Oh, guess what,
there's mercury in Myers Lake. Where did that come from? Some business at some point dumped
something in there, you know, so how many times can we exponentially extrapolate that out to the
countryside? You know, it's like there's landmines all over the place. And uh, so I- I don't think this is
anything that's gonna be solved for a long time 'cause we had a lot of industrial years where, I mean, EPA
didn't even come about to what, late '60s, into the early '70s, so, you know, it's, uh, we're just kind of
getting on, excuse me, on top of a lot of these, uh, more egregious things, you know. But, yeah, do I
believe PFAS damaged my life? Yeah, more ways than one. Career wise and personally with my family
that even has come into the future with my daughter and granddaughter. And after she had all that trouble
with preeclampsia and with the D&amp;Cs that she had to have afterwards that, um, they scarred her for life,
and she can't conceive now. So I've got one grandchild, and [KNOCK SOUND] hopefully they'll adopt
someday 'cause we got a lot more love to give.
Danielle DeVasto: Yeah, absolutely. Well, thank you again, Al. I really appreciate it.
Al Eberlein: You're welcome.
Danielle DeVasto: It was an honor to listen to your story.
Al Eberlein: Well, thanks for saying so.

Page 10

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                    <text>Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
World War II
Don Eckman
Length of interview (1:13:16)
(0:00:00 – 0:08:11) Background
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Born in Grand Rapids, Michigan on April 25, 1925 (0:00:10)
Grew up outside of Lake Odessa (0:23:00)
Grew up with grandmother, due to mother’s health problems (0:37:00)
Grandmother lived in the country, on an 80 acre farm, this is where he grew up, and
“learned to work” (0:58:00)
Had a sister, three years younger (0:01:10)

Schooling (0:01:16- 0:04:27)
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Went to country school for 8 years, a mile away from his home, and he walked to school
High School was 4 miles away, and he was bused to the school
Grandmother’s only income was from the farm (0:02:03)
Was in high school when Pearl Harbor happened, heard about it on the radio (0:02:57)
Reaction to Pearl Harbor was “too young to really know what was going on” (03:22:24)
Could have avoided going to war because of farming, which was a deferment (0:03:54)
Lost interest in farming, and his friends enlisted in the armed forces, so he joined, too
(0:04:27)

(0:04:11 – 0:07:14) Enlistment
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Enlisted in March 1944 (0:04:17)
Went to Detroit for a physical, was signed up for the Army Air Force to do bookwork,
however the draft board said he had to join the Army (0:04:45)
After passing the physical, was sent the next day to Fort Sheridan, Illinois, and stayed for
2-3 days (0:05:00)
After Illinois, traveled to Camp Blanding in Florida by train (0:05:14)
Camp Blanding was located on the east side of the state, located near the town of Stark
and Silver Springs (0:06:26)
Describes a big camp, the residential places the troops stayed were 8-9 man huts
(0:06:54)

Basic Training (0:07:14- 0:11:09)
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Basic training consisted of learning the basics of the army (0:07:19)
Learned a lot of discipline, “learning to do what you were told, rather than doing what
you think is right” (0:07:34)

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The things that disgusted him the most was getting the shots in the afternoon on Saturday,
which would spoil the afternoon (0:07:46)
Couldn’t leave camp for 3 or so weeks when you first got there (0:08:11)
Physical training included marches, hikes, and obstacle courses, weightlifting logs
(0:08:33)
Most guys were older than Eckman, many were married (0:08:42)
Basic training was 17 weeks (0:09:09)
On the weekends was granted liberty (0:09:16)
Trained for use of the rifle, pistols, carbines, hand grenade, bayonets, bazookas, and the
.50 caliber machine gun (0:09:40)
Was at Camp Blanding when D-Day happened (0:10:25)
Finished basic training in August, went home for 1 or 2 weeks and then was sent to Camp
Shanks, New York (0:10:42)
Stayed there until he was ready to move overseas (0:11:10)

(0:11:09- 0:54:35) Active Duty
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Traveled on a ship called the Ile de France, one of the largest French liners (0:11:36)
Was a passenger in the bottom deck, on the highest bunk (0:12:09)
Was not part of a convoy, they were by themselves (0:12:41)
Landed in Glasgow, Scotland (0:13:04)
Once in Glasgow, they were sent on trains to southern England (0:13:16)
Ended up in Sunbury, England (0:13:21)
Stayed there several weeks and was put through basic training (0:13:35)
Company was divided, one half sent to London, the other half sent to France (0:14:25)
Eckman’s company was sent to a replacement depot by open top trucks (0:14:40)
Stayed at the depot 3-4 weeks (0:15:20)
Assigned to 3rd Division, Company B of the 15th Infantry (0:15:27)
Joined the company in the town of Nancy (0:15:53)
The company was refurbishing rifles, repackaging ammunition, resupplied equipment
(0:16:02)
Not very many men joined the company, maybe 3-4 men (0:16:23)
No one knew anything about infantry at the time (16:37:19)
The company had probably 50-60 men (0:16:45)
Was part of the 3rd Platoon, there were 12-15 men in that platoon (0:17:05)
After a few days, he felt accepted and part of the group (0:17:50)
Was in Nancy for a few days, they were headed to Strasbourg (0:18:16)
Strasbourg was occupied by the Germans, and the Germans intended to use it for the
winter (0:18:39)
Saw first combat in Strasbourg. Entered Strasbourg at night, entered with tanks. The first
thing he remembers hearing was machine guns (0:19:07)
Company moved into Strasbourg as the Germans moved back, never went into the city of
Strasbourg (0:21:09)

�
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The Germans harassed the company with mortar and other fire from across the river
where their encampment was (0:22:28)
After Strasbourg, headed south through small towns (0:23:15)
Their job was to chase the Germans out of the small towns (0:23:35)
Came to a building that was full of women and children (0:24:49)
Encountered many German infantrymen (0:25:12)
Spent most of their nights sleeping outside (0:26:46)
Sigelsheim was a town that put up the biggest resistance (0:27:27)
Company attacked Sigelsheim the day before Christmas, lost a lot of men (0:27:43)
Hit in the leg, after 2 weeks sent back to the unit, and joined the same platoon (0:30:41)
His job was to walk point, which he maintained since began with the outfit (0:31:59)
He learned his job through experience, and learning what to be ready for (0:32:16)
He walked out of combat with his injury and was sent to a hospital in Nancy for 2 weeks
(0:33:12)
Was sent back to his unit and were sent to a town with a wall around it (0:33:48)
Joined same platoon , new platoon leader named Lieutenant Murphy and was men were
given guard duty (0:34:48)
Lieutenant Murphy was very compassionate (0:35:57)
Platoon moved towards Colmar, the fighting got more intense as the troops pushed the
Germans further against the Rhine River (0:36:57)
While serving as point man, came to an opening in a field, a German fired at him with a
machine pistol, then Eckman fired at him, shot the German in the rear, and the German
turned around and said to him “You shot me fair and square” (0:38:32)
Encountered SS troops, who liked overcoats and watches (0:39:54)
Eckman took a SS soldiers watch, Lieutenant Murphy made him give it back (0:40:15)
Never picked up souvenirs as he moved through towns, didn’t want to get caught with
anything (0:40:42)
While based in France, saw civilians in towns (0:41:34)
Civilians were friendly towards soldiers, but still scared (0:41:51)
Speaks of the mission in Holzwehr for which Lieutenant Murphy won the Medal of
Honor (0:43:00- 0:0:50:23)
Stayed with unit, near Neuf Brisach (0:53:26)
Was serving bazooka duty, with .35 caliber pistol and a bandolier of ammunition while
struck by artillery or mortar (0:54:35)

Discharge (0:54:35- 1:02:22)
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Was sent to a hospital for a few days, then flew to England and stayed in a hospital for a
few months until the first of May, then took a boat back to the United States, injury
prevented him from doing any further combat (0:55:56)
Heard that the Germans had surrendered while on the ship back to the U.S. (0:58:45)
Stayed in Iowa for 2 weeks to take care of paperwork (0:59:58)

(1:02:22 - 1:13:16) Post Service

�
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Came back to Michigan, returned to farming (1:02:22)
Did not go to college, went to local high school for farm mechanics (1:02:40)
Went to work for the post office as a rural mail carrier in Lake Odessa for 30 years
(1:03:04)
His “folks says he was a different person when he returned” (1:03:29)
Learned to be a lot more independent (1:03:34)
Did not hold any grudges, tried to get along with anyone, would not care to go through it
again (1:03:55)
Had one son, who was in the Air Force (1:04:19)

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Veterans History Project
August Edema
(36:27)
(00:13) Background Information
•

August was born in Byron Center, MI in 1920

•

His family had a 60 acre farm and 6 kids

•

His father worked in a shop once in a while for extra money

•

August went to work on the farm after 8th grade

•

He was drafted when he was 20 in 1941 [1942?] after Pearl Harbor had been attacked

(03:25) Training
•

On October 17, he was inducted in Kalamazoo, MI and then sent to Fort Custer

•

August then went to Camp Adair, OR, which was new

•

It took him 5 days to get there by train

•

He became part of the 96th Infantry Division

•

They trained in wheat fields, marching with rifles

•

August stayed there after boot camp to help train new recruits as a staff sergeant

•

He arrived on the west coast in 1942 and left in 1944

•

August also trained people at Fort Lewis, WA and in California

•

He received amphibious training

•

Before he left for the Military he got married and while he was on the west coast he lived
with his wife in an apartment off base

(12:07) Deployment
•

August left from Oakland, CA in July, 1944 on a troop ship that held 3,000 people and
had bunks 5 high

•

They went to Hawaii and trained for a couple months

•

After Hawaii they passed New Guinea and landed at Leyte, Philippines

•

By this time he was platoon sergeant

•

After arriving on the beach they moved into the jungle, which was hot and humid

�•

There were 2 regiments on the beach

•

They would call back for artillery when there were a lot of enemies

•

He landed on the beach on October 20 and left November 13

•

August started with about 40 men and was down to about half in the end

•

The Japanese had bunkers and HQs with old communication equipment

(25:20) Wounded
•

August was wounded on November 13, 1944

•

He was hit in the hand, leg, and neck

•

August was moved to Guam for a month, Hawaii for a month and then to California for a
month

•

The last hospital he was in was in Atterbury, IN

•

He had gangrene in his hand and they had to use maggots to fix it

•

August was discharged after the war was over

(33:43) Discharge
•

After his discharge he went home and farmed for 10 years but the doctors told him he
shouldn’t do it anymore because of his injuries

•

He then got a realtors license

•

August has a son and a grandson that went into the military

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                <text>&lt;a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455"&gt;Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)&lt;/a&gt;</text>
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                    <text>Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project
George Edema
(00:37:56)
(00:30) Background Information
• George was born in Byron Center, Michigan and had six other siblings
• His older had joined the service during World War Two before he had
• His father was a farmer and they owned some land in Byron
• George graduated in 1942 when he was 17 years old and then began working in a
meat market
• George received his draft papers and got a physical in January
• He started his service in the Army in March of 1943
(3:10) Basic Training
• George began training in Wyoming and had never been so far from home in his
life
• He took a troop train to Wyoming and stopped in Chicago on the way to take an
aptitude test
• Training consisted of calisthenics, marching at high altitudes, and running in cold
weather with gas masks on
• George also had rifle training and found that the physical work was not difficult
for him
• The drill sergeants acted like they were superior to the whole world
• George trained in Wyoming for 13 weeks
(8:20) California
• Here the men lived in horse stalls, but the weather was very nice
• George went to automotive school and was told that he had been in the wrong
class after eleven weeks of training
• He then had training in small arms school working with rifles and pistols for
twelve weeks
• George was asked to be an instructor in the small arms classes, but called into
ASTP after instructing for only two weeks
(10:00) Army Specialized Training Program
• George attended engineering school in California for one month
• He trained five days a week and had the weekends off
• The locals in California were all very nice to the men in the service
• George then went to the University of Indiana, but washed out after five months
because the classes were too hard
(13:45) Maryland
• George was working with the engineering corps, learning about mechanics and
working on everything except tanks

�•
•
•
•

He then went to Georgia for six weeks and trained specifically with Jeep engines
George went back to Wyoming for more training, but hurt his knee and was off
his feet for six months
He had surgery on the cartilage of his knee and then took some time off on leave
to visit his family
After his time on leave, George continued training in mechanics traveling to
Pennsylvania and California

(20:10) Overseas
• George took a ship to India from California and found that the voyage was “not
pleasant”
• Everyone was sick and the weather was bad
• They landed in Calcutta and it was a cultural shock for everyone
• George had never seen so many poor people in his entire life
• They took a train to Burma and then a plane to China to their headquarters
• George got sick with Diphtheria and had to go to the hospital
• When he was out of the hospital, he began working on repairing thing in a very
dirty and unsafe area
(31:20) Treatment for Diphtheria
• George had been on duty when his legs started to feel weird and he found it hard
to walk
• He found he had a reaction to the Diphtheria treatment and that he was becoming
paralyzed
• He had to go to another hospital in Shanghai, and get massage therapy
• After recovering, George traveled back to Washington
• On May 12, 1946 he went to visit his soon-to-be wife and her family back in
Wyoming
• He then went to another hospital in Chicago for further recovery
• He got married two weeks after he was discharged
(35:50) Life After the Service
• George began working on his wife’s brother’s farm
• He then went into business with his father in law
• George later spent 35 years in the garbage removal business
• His time in the service allowed him to travel a lot
• He had a good experience, but would never do it again

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                    <text>Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project Interview
World War II, Navy WAVs
Margaret Edema
Length of Interview: 20:02
(00:21)
JS: We’re talking today with Margaret Edema of Byron Center, Michigan. The interviewer is
James Smither of Grand Valley State University. Okay, Mrs. Edema, can you start by telling us
a little bit about your own background. For instance, where were you born?
ME: I was born in Cicero, Illinois.
JS: Okay, and what did your family do?
ME: My dad was a farmer.
JS: In Cicero, Illinois?
ME: Yes.
JS: Now, that dates you a little bit. (laughter)
ME: Yes.
JS: I grew up in the western suburbs of Chicago and Cicero was already surrounded by city.
ME: Yes. Ogden Avenue and Central Avenue. And there was a farm there.
JS: I can remember a farm stand in Hindsdale, in the early ‘60s. So I guess Cicero broke up a
few decades earlier. Okay, all right. And then, did he stay in that business then, through the
‘30s?
(01:03)
ME: My dad was a farmer all his life. He came from Holland as a farmer.
JS: And what’s your family name?
ME: Postma.
JS: Postma. A good Dutch name. Okay, so then, did you go through high school in Cicero?
ME: No, we moved to Hinsdale, Illinois, on another farm, and I went to high school in Hinsdale.
JS: And, out of curiosity, where was that farm located?

�ME: On Ogden Avenue, again. Same road. Same street, yeah.
JS: Okay. And was it near Ogden and York Road, or was it farther off than that?
ME: It was further south…further west than York Road.
JS: All right. Cause I grew up there, and there were still farms and fields out there, that side of
Ogden. Okay, a little aside there, for people not from Michigan, I guess. Okay, so then, you
attended high school in Hinsdale. Was the high school kind of in the downtown of Hinsdale, at
that point?
ME: Oh, yes. It was a big high school. We had a hundred in my class.
(02:05)
JS: All right. That was the building my mother tore down and replaced with the new junior high
school, when she was president of the school board. And again, another aside from people not
from Michigan. Ahh, okay. Now, do you remember how you heard about Pearl Harbor, and the
beginning of the war.
ME: Oh, everybody was war-minded. I worked in a defense plant. My sister worked at
Douglas Aircraft. And we sort of joined forces and she went to work at [Electra-motive] and I
went to work at a defense corporation that was building a plant for the Aluminum Company of
America.
JS: And where was that?
ME: So we drove together. That was in LaGrange, Illinois.
(02:53)
JS: Okay. Now, let’s see, you start working there in ’40? ’41. Or was it…
ME: Oh, it must have been ’41, I guess.
JS: Okay. And when did you graduate from high school?
ME: 1940.
JS: Okay. Now, what kind of work were you doing then?
ME: I was a secretary. Secretary to the project manager of the whole plant, which was a great
big outfit.
JS: About how many people do you think were working there then?
ME: Oh, thousands. Building, of every trade.

�JS: And so it’s an aluminum company. Were they making parts for things…
ME: They were making airplane parts.
JS: Parts. All right. Now, before Pearl Harbor, were you kind of paying attention to what was
going on in the world or were you working, doing any kind of war-type work before Pearl
Harbor? Before the end of ’41.
(03:48)
ME: I don’t exactly remember Pearl Harbor. I mean, I remember it happening, but I don’t know
where I was then. (laughs)
JS: Okay. But then certainly once the war is going, you’re actively involved in the war industry.
And how long did you stay in that job?
ME: I worked there two years. When the plant was finished, the jobs all ended. The secretarial
jobs in the office. And that’s when I joined the service.
JS: Okay. And then which branch of the service did you join?
ME: I joined the Navy.
JS: And why did you pick the Navy?
ME: Well, they had the nicest uniforms and they had, I thought, the nicest…
JS: Okay. And when did you enlist?
ME: In 1944.
(04:38)
JS: And once you enlist, how did that process work? I mean, first of all, how did you find out
about the opportunity?
ME: Oh, we had signs all over. Everybody was very war conscious.
JS: And then, take us through the process. Where did you go to sign up, and then…
ME: Chicago, Illinois. I was downtown and walked past the recruiting office and thought, I
better see what that’s all about. So I went in and before I knew it, I was signed up. (smiles)
JS: All right. Now once you were signed up, then what did you do? Where’d you go, or what
kind of training did you get?

�ME: Well, I had training before, commercial training. I went to commercial school. I had
worked three years as a secretary, so they were glad to get help before they offered me help in
the Navy.
JS: So, where was the first place the Navy assigned you?
ME: Bronx, New York, Hunter College, boot camp.
JS: Okay…
ME: For six weeks, then I went to Stillwater, Oklahoma.
JS: Now what, what kind of boot camp did they give you?
ME: Oh, that was great. Marched all over New York, it seemed like. In the rain and in the
snow. (laughter) It was February.
JS: What sort of people did they have training you?
ME: Very competent. I envied those girls who were in charge of us.
JS: Do you have any sense of how they ended up being in charge there?
ME: Oh, I suppose…I don’t really know that.
(06:04)
JS: About how old were they?
ME: Probably my age. I think most of them were college grads.
JS: And they had just gotten in before you, and…
ME: And I was only a high school grad, so we got the lower edge.
JS: All right. Aside from marching you around a lot in the rain, what else did they do?
ME: Oh, we learned about the Navy. We had lots of Navy regulations to learn, and we were
given clothes, and learned how to march. We did a lot of that.
JS: Okay. Now, having been in the Chicago area and having been in the city, we were already
more, even though you had grown up around farms, you already had more exposure to big cities
than most people had. What did you think of New York when you got there?
(06:55)
ME: Well, I tell you, we didn’t get out of there for six weeks. We stayed right there. And, then,
I had a friend who came from Chicago and who showed me New York. For one weekend, which

�was great. He was on a ship that happened to be stationed in port in New York, and so he just
happened to be there at the same time I was.
JS: So what did you go and see on that weekend?
ME: Oh, music. What do you call it, Music…
JS: Radio City…
ME: Yeah. Radio City. He took me up in the Empire State Building. Just downtown New
York.
JS: All right. So you finish boot camp. Where do you go next?
ME: I went to Stillwater, Oklahoma, to yeoman school.
JS: Now, why was the Navy in Stillwater, Oklahoma?
ME: That’s where the yeoman school was. They took over A &amp; M University.
JS: So what became Oklahoma State, eventually.
ME: That’s right.
(07:58)
JS: Okay. And what sort of place was that?
ME: Oh, wonderful. We had girls’ dorms. It was a good place to be.
JS: Okay. Now what kind of training did you get in yeoman school?
ME: Same thing I took before. Shorthand, typing, some more Navy regs. And we marched, and
I guess, mostly discipline.
JS: And what kind of women were in there with you?
ME: Same like me. Some with more education, some with less. I would say. I found some
good friends.
JS: And how long do they have you there?
ME: Three months.
JS: Now did you get much of a chance while you were there to get off the base?
ME: Oh, yeah. I went to Oklahoma City, and I went to the little town of Stillwater.

�JS: So what was there to do around there?
ME: Well, not much. We played pool a lot. (laughs) But I went to Oklahoma City almost
every weekend because we had a service home there from our church.
(09:06)
JS: And, so, what did that mean in terms of what you could do, or what you could see…
ME: I took a bus. And I stayed overnight with Reverend Bradt and his family. And I helped her
entertain the soldiers that came there. And we fed them and all that sort of thing.
JS: Okay. Now do you remember anything particular events or things that went on there, things
that you remember in particular about being out in Oklahoma?
ME: It was windy. We’d stand on the parade grounds and the wind would blow the hats and
away they’d go and we couldn’t do a thing about it but watch them go.
JS: Okay. What time of year were you there?
ME: I was there from, oh, probably April.
JS: April til July, something like that?
ME: April til June, I left there.
JS: So they moved you out before it got really hot.
(10:08)
ME: Yes. It wasn’t hot there. It was good weather.
JS: All right. Now, once you finish yeoman school, where do they send you?
ME: Washington, D.C., to the Bureau of Ships.
JS: Okay. And what kind of work did you do there?
ME: Secretary. Same thing I did before.
JS: Okay. But secretarial work can cover a lot of different things, so…
ME: We did ship repairs. Every port that the ship’s came into, had to have a copy of whatever
went on in another report, so that if that ship came in there, they knew exactly what was done
before. And I typed a lot of ship alts.
JS: Okay. And what kinds of repairs seemed to happen most often?

�(10:52)
ME: Well, when they were bombed, the ships were bombed. And they’d come in for repairs.
They’d been out in the water a long time and they’d come in for repairs.
JS: Okay. Now, what kind of set up were you in? The Bureau of Ships, was that in…
ME: That was a very big, temporary office right next to the Washington Monument.
JS: Okay. And what kind of combination of people, or personnel were working there? Who
were you working with?
ME: I think half were civilians. Civil service people. The other half was Navy.
JS: And what proportion of men to women?
ME: Oh. I think less women than men.
JS: Okay. And then what kind of office set up were you in?
ME: Well, we had three officers who were the head of our section, and we took care of the troop
ships. That was our section. And two of us girls worked there. The other girls was a civilian,
and I was a yeoman. And men came in, officers came in and out. Very fast. I started to work
with a Commander and pretty soon, he got to be a Captain, and so out he went, back to sea some
place. And then they sent another fella in to be the head of the section, and then, so whoever
came in, I worked for them.
(12:15)
ME: And finally a Captain came, a Commander came in and he was immediately promoted to a
Captain, and a month later he was promoted to the head of the whole section. And so I went
with him, I was his secretary.
JS: Okay. Do you remember his name?
ME: Captain Brady.
JS: Now, with these officers coming in, were these guys who had been at sea already?
ME: Some were. Some were ninety day wonders. (laughs)
(12:54)
JS: And what does that mean, for people who don’t know?
ME: That means they were college grads and because of their education, they just got a rank
immediately.

�JS: And then they were sent directly from that, into your office. Was there a difference as far as
you could tell, between the ninety days wonders and the other guys?
ME: Sure, yeah. Those fellas who had been out to sea were hard core guys.
JS: And how easy were they to work with, or get along with?
ME: Okay. Very good. I had a wonderful boss.
JS: And did they tell you anything about where they had been, or what they had done?
Anything like that?
(13:29)
ME: Not much. Captain Brady didn’t talk much about his past, but he was a graduate from a
Navy…
JS: The Naval Academy in Annapolis?
ME: Naval Academy, yes. So he had been in the Navy all his life.
JS: About how old was he?
ME: Oh, by that time, he was probably forty five. Of course, I was only twenty, so you know…
JS: Yes, that was old. (laughter)
ME: Yeah.
JS: Now, what was life like in Washington at that point?
ME: Oh, lots of service people. The streets were crowded with service people.
JS: Where did you live?
ME: I lived in the barracks, right next to the Lincoln Memorial. Between the Lincoln Memorial
and the Potomac River. Right near the bridge to the Arlington Cemetery.
(14:20)
JS: And did you have to share a room with people, or…
ME: We lived in cubicle and I shared with another girl. A cubicle. All we had was a cot and a
desk and a closet. And a place to get in and out, that’s all.
JS: ‘Cause housing was certainly scarce in Washington at that point.
ME: Oh, yeah.

�JS: Some of the people I’ve talked to had to share an apartment with six people and things like
that. I don’t know. Did you like living in the barracks, or…
ME: Well, it was very convenient and very beautiful. I walked to work. I started a half hour
later than everybody else because I could stay a half hour longer. Because when they dealt with
the west coast time change, and those fellas needed help after the rest went home. So I always
stayed late.
(15:14)
JS: Okay. But they didn’t have people there around the clock?
ME: Well, I suppose they had guards. I’m sure they did.
JS: Yeah, but it was not a twenty-four, seven office at the time, like now?
ME: No.
JS: Okay. What were you able to do when you were off duty?
ME: Anything we pleased. We got in every facility free because we were in uniform.
Washington Monument, we walked in several times just because we were in uniform. And I
started to make friends with people who lived there, and went to their homes quite a bit. On
weekends. We were free on weekends.
JS: Okay. And, did you meet any interesting young men to go out with, anything like that?
ME: Oh, yeah, a lot of them. (laughs) That’s before I dragged my husband home.
(16:09)
JS: Okay. Now, when did you meet him?
ME: I don’t know. What year was that? About 1945?
Husband: ’44.
ME: ’44.
JS: And he was stationed in Washington at that time?
ME: No. He came from Aberdeen, Maryland. Sometimes he was in Pennsylvania. For a while
he was in Georgia. But he always managed to come back.
(16:41)
JS: What do you think was your favorite part about living in Washington at that point?

�ME: I think it was exciting to be there. We saw everything that went on. President Roosevelt
died while I was there. That was an exciting time. And we marched for that funeral. And, oh, I
think anything else that went on, we were right up there, front and center.
(17:10)
JS: Now where you were, did any of the higher up, brass types come through, or did you mostly
deal with the middle man office in the Bureau of Ships?
ME: Only my officer, Captain Brady. He was the only one I really dealt with.
JS: Now, describe for us what a typical day was like for you, working in the Bureau of Ships.
ME: Oh, I’d walk to work and make coffee for the guys. I don’t know why I was always elected
to make coffee, so…wash the dishes. Took dictation. My boss told a lot of stories. I did a lot of
listening.
(17:57)
JS: What’d he tell stories about if…
ME: Oh, his life. His family. He had several children, and…
JS: Okay. And was it mostly a pretty busy place?
ME: Oh, yeah. Very busy. We had about fifty people in just that one section.
JS: Okay. And then, how long did you stay in that job?
ME: The whole time I was there.
JS: And then when did you finish?
ME: February of 1946.
JS: Okay. And what kind of work was there to do, sort of after the war was over?
ME: Oh, pick up the pieces, I think. They seemed to carry on pretty much as before. There
wasn’t much difference.
JS: There was less battle damage, maybe.
ME: That’s right.
(18:50)
JS: But you still had a lot of ships out there, to bring back. Repairs and maintenance to do.
ME: We did a lot of work with the troop transport ships. With a lot of boys coming home.

�JS: Are there other things about this work, kind of distinctive things that you remember, that
stick with you, that you think back to. What now comes into your head?
ME: I don’t know. I never dreaded going to work. I was always anxious to go in the morning.
It was interesting. I didn’t type ship alts anymore. That was one good thing. (laughs) That was
done with the other echelon. I had moved up with this Captain and his work was different.
JS: Well, what kind of work did he have you do, as opposed to just the ship reports?
(19:37)
ME: Oh, I did a lot of letter writing for him. And he did a lot of, I think, his memoirs, that I
typed for him.
JS: Okay. And then what did you do after you left the service?
ME: After I left the service, I went home to Elgin, Illinois. My parents had lived in Elgin. Got a
job, as a secretary for Motorola.
JS: And how long did you stay in that?
ME: Oh, not very long, because George came home in May and we were married two weeks
later, so…then we moved away.
JS: And when do you come to Byron Center?
ME: Oh, not until this past July. Took him sixty one years to get me to Byron Center.
JS: That’s basically what we need there, so thank you very much for talking to us today.
ME: It’s been good. Been a pleasure.
(20:35)

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                    <text>Grand Valley State University
Veteran’s History Project
Keith Edmondson
World War II
Interview Length: (00:54:54:00)
Pre-enlistment / Training (00:00:17:00)
 Edmondson was born in May 1924 in Wheaton, Illinois, but spent all his early years in
nearby Glen Ellyn, Illinois (00:00:17:00)
o While Edmondson was growing up, his father worked as a tailor in Chicago,
which involved commuting two hours a day, one hour to Chicago and one hour to
get home (00:00:30:00)
 However, during the early part of the Great Depression, Edmondson’s
father was unemployed for a year-and-a-half (00:00:47:00)
o While Edmondson was a child, his grandfather, an immigrant from Norway, lived
with Edmondson’s family, having retired from his job of working as a sailor for
thirty years (00:00:55:00)
 Edmondson’s grandfather did not have anything to do except play with
Edmondson, so he taught Edmondson how to tie all the naval knots and
told Edmondson sailing stories (00:01:05:00)
o Edmondson had two siblings, an older brother who died when he was five or six
years old and an older sister (00:01:19:00)
 Edmondson graduated from high school in 1942, when he was eighteen years old, then
started attending Purdue University the following fall (00:02:01:00)
o On the Sunday the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor, Edmondson was at home and
he heard of the radio that Pearl Harbor had been bombed (00:02:16:00)
 The attack did not make too much of an impression on Edmondson at the
time, although looking back, it probably should have (00:02:43:00)
o While in high school, Edmondson worked as a paperboy and he remembers
reading articles talking about the fighting in Europe, particularly the Fins fighting
against the Russians (00:02:54:00)
 However, Edmondson was not too invested in following the war in
Europe, mostly because he had other things that occupied his time, such as
picking colleges (00:03:13:00)
o After the Japanese attack, Edmondson remembers being in a group of students
that the school principal was addressing, explaining about the war in Europe and
the attack on Pearl Harbor, and at one point the principal remarked that he thought
few in the audience would end up serving in the military (00:03:27:00)
 In November 1942, while at Purdue, Edmondson heard about a program called the
Aviation Cadet Program, which interested Edmondson because the program offered him
a deferment on serving in the military until the end of college (00:04:13:00)
o Edmondson took the test for the program, did quite well, and was admitted into
the program (00:04:36:00)
o Unlike most of the other students in the program, Edmondson was not interested
in becoming a pilot (00:04:58:00)

�





However, only four months after Edmondson joined the Aviation Cadet Program, in
February 1943, the program changed and Edmondson was enlisted into the military and
sent to San Antonio, Texas (00:05:13:00)
o Because Edmondson was still only eighteen years old, the entire experience was
all sort of a big adventure (00:05:26:00)
o To get to San Antonio, Edmondson first went to some place in Chicago, where he
boarded a train that took him to San Antonio; by the time Edmondson and the
other new recruits arrived in San Antonio, they were all pretty dirty because the
trains were not kept very clean (00:05:33:00)
o Once in San Antonio, Edmondson was assigned to a barracks located on an
airfield; the barracks were a classification center, so Edmondson and the other
recruits had to chose between the different occupations, such as being a pilot, a
bombardier, a navigator, etc. (00:05:58:00)
 Edmondson looked at the pilots training and saw the training would take
fourteen months, as opposed to only six months for training for a
bombardier; the pay difference between the two groups was small, so
Edmondson elected to go through bombardier training (00:06:17:00)
 A lot of the men who went through bombardier training with Edmondson
were men who had washed out of the pilot training program (00:06:36:00)
o While at the classification center, Edmondson and the other recruits also went
through some physical training (00:06:51:00)
Shortly after choosing the bombardier classification, Edmondson went to Ellington Field
outside of Houston for pre-flight bombardier training (00:07:01:00)
o Once at Ellington Field, Edmondson and the other recruits in pre-flight
bombardier training went through more physical training, as well as book work,
with instructors explain about different aspects of the Air Corps (00:07:26:00)
 During the pre-flight training, Edmondson and the other recruits were able
to travel into Houston (00:07:56:00)
After the pre-flight training at Ellington Field, Edmondson went to Midland, Texas for
the actual bombardier training (00:08:03:00)
o During the bombardier training, Edmondson primarily learned how to operate an
Norden bombsight, first on a trainer aircraft, then later aboard another aircraft,
where Edmondson dropped legitimate practice bombs (00:08:13:00)
 During practice bombing runs on the trainer aircraft, Edmondson would be
aboard the aircraft with an instructor while on the ground, someone else
would move a target; Edmondson objective was to get the crosshairs of the
bombsight on the target for a certain amount of time (00:08:59:00)
 The instructor kept track of everything Edmondson did, including
where a bomb would have landed had the flight been a legitimate
bombing run (00:09:28:00)
o Edmondson stayed at Midland until August 1943, when he graduated from the
bombardier training (00:09:43:00)
o While at Midland, Edmondson and the other recruits had access to go into
Midland, which was an interesting town because of the large number of cattle
ranches in the surrounding (00:09:57:00)

�





The recruits could go into town on the weekends and hear men talking
about four thousand of this and four thousand of that; as it turned out, the
men were talking about cattle (00:10:08:00)
o Later in the training, Edmondson did bombing runs over “actual targets”, which
were rings and he would drop 100 lb. bombs filled with sand, which would
illustrate where the bombs landed (00:10:38:00)
 Normally, these practice bombing runs happened around 10,000’ and were
pretty useful in the training (00:11:07:00)
 From his own estimation, Edmondson dropped almost all of his bombs
within 50’ of the target, which was considered very good; good enough to
become an instructor in the bombardier training (00:11:32:00)
After leaving Midland, Edmondson was assigned to the Fourth Air Force, which was
stationed along the west coast of the United States; initially, Edmondson was stationed at
Mountain Home, Idaho as an instructor bombardier in a B-24 squadron (00:11:51:00)
o Being an instructor bombardier consisted of Edmondson flying with bomb crews
over targets and see how well the student bombardier could do in dropping bombs
on targets (00:12:07:00)
 Most of the practice bombs were the sand-filled 100 lb. bombs, although
there were a few legitimate bombs dropped as well (00:12:23:00)
o Edmondson spent a few months in Mountain Home before transferring to
Tonopah, Nevada, which was also part of the Fourth Air Force, where he
continued working as an instructor bombardier (00:12:32:00)
o By this time, Edmondson is barely nineteen years old and although he found
working as a bombardier interesting, the extracurricular activities at both
Mountain Home and Tonopah were pretty grim (00:13:09:00)
 In particular, aircraft taking off from the runway in Tonopah had to pass
through a mountain pass and several aircraft ended up crashing into the
mountains (00:13:26:00)
o Eventually, a senior pilot at Tonopah, a major, wanted to form an air crew to
deploy overseas, so he asked some of the more senior instructors and personnel
working at the airfield, including Edmondson, to join the crew (00:13:58:00)
 All the men who the major asked to join the crew said “yes”, so the air
crew was formed for deployment overseas (00:14:35:00)
o For the most part, at both Mountain Home and Tonopah, Edmondson was
younger than most of the other instructors (00:14:58:00)
 During the fall of 1942, the Air Corps began expanding in anticipation of
what might happen during the war, which included building more airfields
and pushing more men through training (00:15:25:00)
After the major had successfully formed the air crew at Tonopah, the entire crew went to
an airfield near Fairfield/Suisun City, California, picked up a new B-24 Liberator, and
flew the bomber to Hawaii (00:16:06:00)
o Once in Hawaii, the entire air crew went through gunnery training, which was in
preparation for the crew heading into the combat area (00:16:28:00)
 On most B-24s, the bombardier was the armament officer, although
Edmondson did not take that job to seriously because all the other men on
the bomber knew what they were doing (00:16:44:00)

�

During the gunnery training, the B-24 would fly out and strafe various
locations, mostly around a deserted island and a location south of Maui
(00:16:56:00)
o For the couple of months that gunnery training lasted, the crew was stationed at
an airfield near Kahuku, which was on the north side of Oahu (00:17:24:00)
 On one side of the airfield was a pineapple plantation and on the other side
was the cannery; it eventually reached the point that Edmondson could not
stand to look at a pineapple (00:17:35:00)
o Edmondson and the rest of the B-24 crew spent two or three months in Hawaii for
the gunnery training, leaving in March 1944 (00:18:04:00)
Deployment (00:18:44:00)
 After leaving Hawaii, the B-24 first flew to Johnston Island, then continued to the base
on Kwajalein Island, which was located in the Marshall Island chain (00:18:44:00)
o Kwajalein was a circular atoll, which meant the “island” was essentially a sandbar
that was big enough for an airfield to be built on it; the highest point on the entire
atoll was only ten feet (00:19:01:00)
o The 11th Bombardment Group, which the 98th Bombardment Squadron, which
was Edmondson’s squadron, was a part of, had moved to Kwajalein from Tarawa
a few weeks before Edmondson’s B-24 arrived (00:19:26:00)
 Therefore, most of the other men in the squadron were experienced pilots
that had done numerous operations (00:19:43:00)
o During the first few missions Edmondson’s B-24 went on, his B-24 would “fly
wing” as the squadron would attack the Japanese-held island of Truk
(00:19:54:00)
 During the attacks on Truk, the entire squadron of twelve bombers would
fly in four flights of three bombers, with each flight having one bomber as
the lead bomber and the other two bombers as his wingmen (00:20:20:00)
 Until a crew had enough experience in combat, they would
normally fly as the wingmen in a flight (00:20:54:00)
o When the bombers would make their bombing runs, the bombardiers on each
individual bomber were allowed to operate independently from the other
bombers; the bombardier would set up a specific target and bomb that target while
still keeping the bomber in formation (00:21:17:00)
 Later in the war, the bombing method used in the European theater of only
having the bombardier on the lead bomber using the bombsight spread
over to the Pacific theater (00:21:28:00)
 Once that method started being used, all the other bombardiers
would drop their bombs based on the actions of the lead
bombardier (00:21:38:00)
 Although it probably was more difficult to make a bombing run against an
actual target as opposed to what he had been doing in the United States,
Edmondson was not really conscious of it (00:22:01:00)
 Edmondson should have been more worried than he was but he
was still just a kid and the entire experience was all still sort of a
big adventure (00:22:07:00)

�

o

o
o
o
o

o

Once Edmondson became squadron bombardier, his claim to fame was he
was good enough that he only had to do very short bombing runs; this
meant the bombers were not flying straight and level for more than twenty
or twenty-five seconds, which was considered very good (00:22:17:00)
When the bombers did bombing runs against Truk, they encountered Japanese
anti-aircraft fire, as well as some enemy fighters; however, because it was 1944,
there was not much in the way of enemy fighters (00:22:39:00)
 Before attacking Truk, the bombers would stage the attack from the island
of Eniwetok, which was a short flight away from Truk; on Eniwetok, the
bombers would re-fuel (00:22:51:00)
 The attacks against Truk were largely meant to destroy Japanese airfields
on the island or, at the very least, disrupt the Japanese Air Force’s ability
to launch aircraft from those airfields (00:23:08:00)
 The airfields on Truk were large, which meant the bombers did not
have to be absolutely precise in their bombing runs (00:23:21:00)
 During one of the missions against Truk, there was a radio station and
small airstrip located on a nearby island and Edmondson’s B-24 dropped
several 1000 lb. bombs, which managed to destroy both the airstrip and
the radio station (00:23:28:00)
 Normally during the bombing runs, the B-24s carried between
twelve and sixteen 500 lb. bombs (00:23:53:00)
Most of the attacks Edmondson was a part of consisted of one squadron making a
bomb run at a time (00:24:02:00)
Apart from Truk, the 98th Bombardment also attacked Wake Island and often,
those missions were less than the entire squadron; in fact, during on of the
missions to Wake, it was only Edmondson’s B-24 (00:24:07:00)
On some of the missions, the B-24s had fighter escorts, although it did not happen
too often; there was a squadron of P-38 fighters in the area and those fighters had
enough range to stick with the B-24s during the bombing runs (00:24:34:00)
However, most of the time, the bombers were by themselves and they would
encounter a lot of enemy flak; by the time Edmondson’s B-24 was taking part in
the attacks, flak was a significant danger to the bombers (00:24:43:00)
 It was not often another bomber in the squadron was shot down during a
mission; regardless, the bombers still took a lot of damage (00:25:01:00)
 At one point, Edmondson received a Purple Heart, when during a
mission, the bomber was approaching the target and a 20mm round
from a Japanese Zero came into the bombardier compartment;
luckily, the round wedged into the forward tire before detonating,
otherwise, Edmondson might not have survived (00:25:07:00)
 On a couple of occasions, the Norden bombsight was destroyed by
flak, with Edmondson kneeling behind it (00:25:31:00)
 During the missions over Truk, the squadron only lost one or two
airplanes total (00:25:47:00)
At a certain point during the bombing run, there was an automatic pilot
component to the Norden that allowed Edmondson to take directly control of the
bomber (00:26:13:00)

�



However, Edmondson’s pilot was good and sometimes, he would maintain
control of the bomber while following direction indicators mounted in the
cockpit; other times, Edmondson would take direct control (00:26:21:00)
 There was a significant amount of variance between what the
bomber crews did during missions in the Pacific Theater as
opposed to what the bomber crews during missions in the
European theater (00:26:47:00)
o Edmondson is unsure whether the major who formed
Edmondson’s bomber crew knew about the differences in
bomber crews between the two theaters and specifically
managed to get the crew assigned to Pacific (00:26:54:00)
o After about fifth or sixth mission, Edmondson’s bomber became the lead bomber
for the squadron (00:27:13:00)
 Whenever a specific bomber did a good job, the crew received letters of
congratulations from the colonel commanding the 11th Bombardment
Group; Edmondson’s bomber received about half-a-dozen of the letters
(00:27:16:00)
 Around the tenth or fifteenth mission, because Edmondson’s pilot was a
major, he was promoted to squadron leader; at the time, the promotion was
unusual because normally, a pilot with such little combat experience
would not have been promoted to be a squadron leader (00:28:05:00)
o Normally, the bombers would go on a mission every third day and in-between the
missions, the men lived a very bachelor life (00:28:32:00)
 Edmondson played a lot of volleyball and did a lot of swimming; all in all,
Edmondson thought it was a relaxed, interesting life (00:28:46:00)
 As the men flew more and more missions, they became more and more
superstitious, such as only eating certain foods, always sitting a certain
way during take off, etc. (00:29:07:00)
 Some of the pilots were in their late 20s and Edmondson believes living
on the island was tougher for them than it was for him (00:29:33:00)
 When the squadron moved to Guam, the officers spent some of the
time building an officer’s club (00:29:47:00)
o Edmondson’s bomber was stationed on Kwajalein from March 1944 until October
1944; by the time his bomber left Kwajalein, Edmondson had gone on around
twenty different missions (00:30:04:00)
In October, Edmondson’s whole squadron moved from Kwajalein to the island of Guam,
which was much bigger than Kwajalein (00:30:37:00)
o Guam was located in the Marianas island chain, near the islands of Saipan and
Tinian; Guam had previously been an American possession but was occupied by
the Japanese and won back by the Marines before Edmondson’s squadron arrived
on the island (00:30:43:00)
o The airfield on Guam was a little bit longer than the airfield on Kwajalein, which
was good for the take-offs (00:31:0:00)
o From Guam, the bombers primarily attacked the Japanese-held island of Iwo
Jima, mostly destroying the Japanese airfields on the island (00:31:26:00)

�








A couple of days before the Marines’ invasion of the island, the bombers
dropped incendiary bombs on the island’s beaches (00:31:38:00)
 While flying over Iwo Jima, the bombers mostly encountered enemy flak,
although there were some enemy fighters (00:31:59:00)
 At the time of the bombing missions, the Japanese had two airfields
already constructed and operating on Iwo Jima and they were in the
process of building a third (00:32:24:00)
 Once the Marines launched their invasion, the bombers stopped their
bombing missions against the island, out of fear of accidentally hitting
friendly forces on the ground (00:32:45:00)
o After the bombers switched from bombing Iwo Jima, Edmondson cannot really
remember where their bombing missions were, although he does remember doing
some missions against the island of Palau (00:33:10:00)
o When the men were not on duty, they could go swimming, go into a small town
nearby, take classes, etc. (00:34:03:00)
 For the most part, the men were counting missions and trying to get to
forty, which meant they could go home (00:34:31:00)
 At one point, the officers got a couple of bottles of liquor and a couple
truckloads of lumber, so they began building an officer’s club; once the
club was complete, the officers spent their time there (00:34:47:00)
 There was a hospital on the island and on some occasions, nurses
from the hospital would come to the club (00:35:01:00)
 Because he was the squadron bombardier, Edmondson had additional,
clerical work to do when not on duty; however, he does not remember it
be too much of an effort (00:35:11:00)
Different men in the squadron reached the forty mission plateau at different times, and
once they reached the plateau, the men would rotate home; however, Edmondson’s crew
was given the chance to rotate home after only thirty missions (00:35:35:00)
At several different times, the men were able to take R&amp;Rs back to Hawaii (00:35:54:00)
o Aircraft would frequently fly back and forth from Guam to Hawaii and whenever
someone was on R&amp;R, he could just hop aboard on of those to get from one
island to another (00:36:23:00)
o The whole system of R&amp;R did not seem very organized to Edmondson; to him, it
seemed the system was “catch as catch can” (00:36:41:00)
On both Kwajalein and Guam, the officers lived separate from the enlisted personnel, in
barracks on Kwajalein and tents on Guam (00:37:06:00)
o However, during the missions, there was camaraderie amongst the men and
everyone respected everyone else and the job they were doing (00:37:23:00)
 Edmondson himself became good friends with most of the enlisted men
serving on his bomber (00:37:33:00)
o Edmondson’s nickname amongst the crew was either “junior” or “kid” because he
was young; however, the men respected Edmondson’s ability to make short
bombing runs, so it was a mutual respect between he and other men (00:37:50:00)
During a bombing run, the first thing Edmondson did, before the bombers even reached
the target, was take wind readings using the bombsight, which was then feed into the

�



bombsight, along with information about the size of the bombs being dropped and how
high the bombers were (00:38:25:00)
o Normally before a bombing run, the bombers would be flying at around 10,000’,
which meant the crew did not need separate oxygen supplies (00:38:44:00)
o The bombing missions were usually around ten hours long and once the bombers
were about half-an-hour from the target, the bombardier would start timing and
the bombers themselves would climb up to around 30,000’ (00:38:51:00)
o The bombers would normally have a pre-selected approach to the target and each
bombardier would know what his specific target was, based on the pre-mission
briefings (00:39:04:00)
o As soon as the bombers reached the desired approach, they would slowly turn as a
squadron onto the approach, after which the bombardiers would pick up the
targets and being adjusting the speed and altitude of the bomber (00:39:19:00)
o Each bomber needed to be at a certain point in space at a certain time for the
bomb to drop on the intended target; the problem is that enemy flak gunners on
the ground can work the situation backwards and figure out exactly where the
bombers needed to be to hit a specific target (00:39:37:00)
o Once the bombardiers were prepared to drop the bombs, the bombers would
continue on the approach and as they got closer to the target, the bombers would
open their bomb-bay doors (00:39:58:00)
o Once the bombers were over the target, the two sections of the bombsight would
come together and instantly release the bombs (00:40:07:00)
 There was a small wire on each bomb that kept the arming device from
spinning, so that the only way the bombs would armed was when they
were a couple 100’ outside of the bomber (00:40:18:00)
o The bomber crews knew exactly how long it would take for the bombs to reach
the ground, so they would watch to see what happened; however, most of the
time, by the time the bombs impacted the ground, the bombers were already
turning for the flight back to base (00:40:33:00)
o The advantage of a short bomb run was that it gave the enemy gunners on the
round less time to target the bombers (00:40:51:00)
In late spring / early summer 1945, Edmondson’s squadron left Guam and moved to
Okinawa (00:41:21:00)
o When Edmondson’s squadron arrived at Yontan Airfield on Okinawa, the
American ground forces had not yet fully wrested control of the island from the
Japanese defenders (00:41:35:00)
 For the most part, Yontan was secure, except for when a nearby
ammunition dump was destroyed (00:41:52:00)
o By the time his squadron had transferred to Okinawa, Edmondson had flown the
majority of his missions; he ended up flying only one mission over Japan and was
stationed on Okinawa for only a couple of months (00:42:27:00)
While the squadron was still stationed on Guam, the co-pilot on Edmondson’s bomber
was given command of a new bomber, which was subsequently shot down; the co-pilot
managed to ditch the bomber and although the Navy was sent in to find the co-pilot, they
never did (00:42:45:00)

�





Apart from the Japanese 20mm round coming into the compartment and the destruction
of a couple of bombsights, one time, Edmondson’s bomber was over a target when the
bomber’s hydraulic system was shot out (00:43:22:00)
o Once the bomber returned to base, the pilots could not lower the landing gear;
although the crew was able to lower the landing gear via a crank, they had done
that before and someone had forgotten to rewind the crank (00:43:39:00)
o Ultimately, the bomber ended up having to land without wheels (00:43:56:00)
 Before attempting the landing, the crew threw everything that was
unnecessary out of the bomber and then everyone, save the pilot and copilot, gathered in the waist of the bomber and secured themselves as best
they could (00:44:07:00)
 Once the bomber was on the ground, it skidded for about 1,500 yards
before coming to a stop; the crew, worried about the potential of a fire,
quickly moved away (00:44:24:00)
o Luckily, the landing did not disturb any of the propellers and within a week,
someone was using the bomber to fly back to Hawaii (00:44:35:00)
Edmondson does not remember the one mission he flew over Japan; it was close to the
end of his tour and he was just hoping that something would not happen (00:44:56:00)
o The mission took place in the latter part of July and Edmondson does remember
that during the briefing, the crews were told to avoid bombing Hiroshima, which
was near Kobe (00:45:09:00)
While on Okinawa, the bomber crews slept in tents with small bomb shelters built next to
them (00:45:31:00)
o At one point, a Japanese bomber flew over the base at night to drop bombs and
Edmondson remembers thinking how bad it would be to be killed at night, during
a Japanese bombing run (00:45:41:00)

End of Deployment / Post-Military Life / Reflections (00:45:56:00)
 Once he completed his forty missions, Edmondson got transportation back to Hawaii;
while Edmondson was at Hickam Field on Hawaii, the Americans dropped the two
atomic bombs on Japan, which ended the war (00:45:56:00)
o During his service, Edmondson had accumulated enough “points” from medals
and missions that when he returned to Chicago, he was discharged from active
duty, although the military did make an effort to get him to join the Air Force
Reserves (00:46:11:00)
o In September 1945, Edmondson returned to Chicago, was discharged from the
military, married, and started back at Purdue (00:46:26:00)
 Around the time his squadron moved from Kwajalein to Guam,
Edmondson was able to come back to the United States for a couple of
weeks on leave; the train from California to Chicago ran through Des
Moines, Iowa, which was home of the University of Iowa, where
Edmondson’s future wife was going to school (00:46:56:00)
 When the train passed through Des Moines, Edmondson got off
and proposed to his future wife; he and his future wife had gone to
the same high school together, she a year younger, and they lived
within three or four blocks of each other (00:47:07:00)

�








o While Edmondson was deployed overseas, he wrote a lot of
letters to her (00:47:33:00)
o In hindsight, Edmondson did not know her too well when
he proposed and vice versa; she had changed going while
attending Iowa and he had changed from being in the
service (00:47:39:00)
While Edmondson was stationed on the various islands, he does not remember ever
seeing any USO shows (00:48:15:00)
While stationed on both Guam and Okinawa, Edmondson did see some of the local
population, Guam in particular (00:48:34:00)
o During the day, the men would take showers using 55 galleon drums and as local
civilians would walk along a nearby road, the men would wave (00:48:41:00)
o The civilians on Guam disliked the Japanese and were friendly to the men than
the civilians on Okinawa; however, Edmondson was not on Okinawa long enough
to really interact with the civilian population (00:49:14:00)
Edmondson feels that his time spent overseas helped mature him; when he returned to
Purdue, he was a lot better student (00:49:47:00)
o Edmondson came out of the military neutral in his perception of the war; he did
not have any great love of the war but on the flip side, he did not resent or object
to what he went through (00:50:07:00)
 Edmondson did not really experience the major losses of personnel that
men serving in Europe did; all totaled, Edmondson’s squadron only lost
two or three bombers the whole time he was there (00:50:22:00)
When Edmondson returned to Purdue, he was not exactly sure what he would study;
during his high school graduation, he had heard a science award, so he decided to look at
science-related studies (00:50:54:00)
o Edmondson eventually became interested in chemical engineering, so about six
months after he returned to Purdue, he enrolled in the chemical engineering
program at the university (00:51:08:00)
 Ultimately, enrolling in the chemical engineering program turned out to be
a good choice for Edmondson (00:51:18:00)
o Edmondson’s wife had spent two years at Iowa and had changed her major
several times before becoming pregnant, which caused her to not graduate from
the university (00:51:24:00)
o After Edmondson finished his undergraduate degree, he went through the
graduate-level chemical engineering program; while he was a graduate student,
Edmondson ended up working for the head of the program (00:51:56:00)
 Edmondson finished his undergraduate degree in February 1948 and
stayed for an extra year to finish his graduate degree (00:52:19:00)
 Although Edmondson knew it would have been better to attend a different
school for his graduate studies, there were enough things at Purdue to keep
him there (00:52:28:00)
After Edmondson finished his graduate degree, he met up with another student who had
been a year ahead of him and who worked for the Upjohn Company, a large
pharmaceutical company (00:52:52:00)

�o The other man convinced Edmondson to apply at Upjohn; at the time, Edmondson
had job offers from several different companies, including Upjohn, because at the
time, there was a demand for chemical engineers (00:53:13:00)
o Edmondson managed to get into Upjohn at a very good time and he has worked
with the company for several years before transferring to International, where he
eventually became head of the company’s chemical division (00:53:31:00)

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                <text>Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives</text>
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D E V E L O P ME NT
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COMPREHENSIVE COMMUNITY PLAN
BIG RAPIDSJ MICHIGAN

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1976

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EDWARDSJ JOHNSON) MILLS &amp;ASSOCIATES

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COMMUNITY PLANNING CONSULTANTS
MIDLAND) MICHIGAN

PREPARED BY:

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CITY OF BIG RAPIDS, MICHIGAN

Mayor
Charles E. Fairman

City Commission
H. L. King

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Ruth M. Lucas

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Russell A. Hinkle

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Johns. Taylor

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City Plan Board

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Gerald M. Church, Chairman
Vordyn Nelson, Vice Chairman
Caryl Ferguson
Mary Hynes
Charles Riley

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Joseph Spedowski

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James Turner

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Stanley Longcor
Robert Entsminger

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TABLE OF CONTENTS

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GOALS

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DESCRIPTION OF THE PLANNING AREA

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POPULATION

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INTRODUCTION

History
Current Population
Housing Characteristics
Housing Conditions
Neighborhoods
LAND USE SURVEY AND ANALYSIS
Land Use Categories
Analysis
Commercial Ribbon Development

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2
4
6
7
9

13
15
17
23

STREETS AND RqADS STUDY

25

FUTURE LAND USE PLAN

29

FUTURE POPULATION

34

MAJOR STREET PLAN

35

COMMUNITY FACILITIES

38

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LIST OF MAPS

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LOCATION MAP

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BASE MAP

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Following ·page

NEIGHBORHOODS

9

E~ISTING LAND USE

16

COMMERCIAL RIBBON DEVELOPMENT

23

EXISTING STREET PROBLEMS

26

FUTURE LAND USE

29

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INTRODUCTION
The purpose of a Comprehensive Community Plan is to guide
the physical development of a community so as to produce
an interesting, efficient, safe and healthy environment
in which to live and work.
The City of Big Rapids has been involved with comprehensive
planning for about fifteen years.
In the early 1960's, a
-PLAJ 1ias developed for the general growth of the City
indicating the history and early de~elopment of the area,
conditions existing at the time of the report and a general
guide for future development.

Later, a NEIGHBORHOOD ANALYSIS( 2 )

was prepared to determine areas of blight or potential
blight with recommendations for correcting these conditions.
In 1966, a RENEWAL PLAJ 3~pecifically for the Central Area
or the Central Business District (C.B.D.) was completed.
This study outlined steps to be taken in order to modernize
and enhance the primary shopping area in the City. A year
later, in 1967, a RECREATION PLAJ 4~as prepared to serve as
a guide for future development of the City's physical
recreational facilities:

parks, playfields and playgrounds.

The current planning program was begun in 1974 to update all
previous planning programs and to incorporate changes that
have occurred in the community in the last ten years.
planning program is made up of three separate studies:
1.

THE CAPITAL IMPROVEMENTS PROGRAM,

2.

THE SUBDIVISION ORDINANCE, both of which have
been published separately, and

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3.

This study, THE GE NERAL DEVELOPMENT PLAN.

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The BIG RAPIDS ZONING ORDINANCE, the fourth major portion
of the COMPREHENSIVE COMMUNITY PLAN, was adopted in 1969
and is being used by the City.
To determine the attitude of the community and to provide
a foundation for the planning program, the Big Rapids City
Plan Board undertook the task of preparing a Goals Statement
on behalf of the community.

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After a series of public

hearings during which the people of Big Rapids considered
the goals, the City Commission endorsed the Statement.
Following is the Goals Statement for Big Rapids as it
pertains to the future of the City;

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1.

"A PLAN for Development of the City and Community of
Big Rapids Michigan", Scott Bagby and Associates,
April 1963.

2.

"City of Big Rapids Michigan NEIGHBORHOOD ANALYSIS",
City Plan ~ ing Associates, Inc,
September 1964.

3.

"GENERAL '. iEIGHBORHOOD RENEWAL PLAN FOR THE CENTRAL
AREA, BIG RAPIDS, MICHIGAN", City Planning Associates
Inc, February 1966.

4.

"RECREATION PLAN, Big Rapids, Michigan", Raymond W.
Mills~ Associates Inc, November 1967.

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RESIDENTIAL LAND USE

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Goal
Adequate housing for all the citizens of Big Rapids should be achieved
through a housing policy which will provide encouragement and
opportunity for renovation and improvement of existing housing, and
provide for controlled new building which will preserve the essentially
residential character of the City and meet the needs of the community.
Implementation .

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Encourage Planned Unit

Development* housing with control over
the number of units constructed in order to preserve an essentially
"small town" atmosphere.

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2.

Strive to provide the necessary;° utilities to areas of the
community where construction of housing is desired and is to
be encouraged.

3.

Strive to identify and obtain state and federal resources in
order to provide for the improvement and needed rehabilitation
of existing housing units.

4.

Provide for specific mobile home areas in the community compatible
with existing residential conditions within the City.

5.

Seek concentrated code enforcement

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all neighborhood areas

throughout the City.

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*A Plarmed Unit Development usually includes clustered home sites with
srm.ll private yards but having large cormzon open areas and recreation
centers maintained by a neighborhood association . It also often
includes neighborhood-type shops. It is controlled by a special
zoning ordinance.
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6.

Provide open spaces (parks and r;_;_ :ural preserves) in close
proximity to each neighborhood and within each Planned Unit
Development. Each open space area should provide some measure
of all-season recreation.

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Encou:rage new home construction and local ownership of City
residential properties in order to provide the incentives

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associated with pride of neighborhood and community.
8.

Provide for appropriate controls over the development of multiple ·
and/or rental housing units in an effort to maintain an essentially
small town atmosphere.

9.

Encou:rage the preservation and rehabilitation of some of the few
remaining historical residential stru.ctu:res in the community.

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Provide for a continuation of public housing and strive to meet
similar developing needs in order to assu:re respectable housing
for all citizens regardless of status. Such housing shall be
provided for in a manner which respects the pride and dignity of
each individual.

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Future Zand available for residential development should include
the area which is presently occupied by the county fair grounds.
COMMERCIAL LAND USE

Goal
Pr,omote the development of commercial land use in the City in such a
way as to: (l) continue the Central Business District {C.B.D.) as
the pnmary commercial service area, (2) stimulate geographically
balanced growth by encouraging development in the direction of east
and west in order to relieve pressia'e for development which would

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further stretch out commercial land use to the north and south, (3)
promote Big Rapids as a regional trading center.

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Implementation
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The Central Business District should be pedestrian-oriented.
Facilities to encourage pedestrian use should be provided.
These might include: (a) a landscaped open-air mall, (b) public
seating, (c) rest rooms, (d) pocket parks, (e) drinking fountains,
and (f) bike parking.

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2.

On

the edge of the City, commercial development should be limited
to small neighborhood service establishments.

3.

Expand the Central Business District to provide commercial
property for necessary business growth.

4.

Prevent further strip commercialization along State Street.

5.

Provide commercial zoning along the limited access route to the
new freeway as needed. A new commercial zone category should be
enacted to control this development.
INDUSTRIAL LAND USE
Goal

Recognizing that industry is vital to regional growth and development
and that attraction and retention of good industry results in the
sound broadening of the cormrunity's economic base, efforts should be
made to attract new light industry to the locality.

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�Implementation
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The development of a variety of new employment opportunities
should be undertaken ~n order to encourage retention of local
high school and college graduates within the cormrunity.

2.

Encouragement should be given to new industries which would
complement the higher educational and vocational training
resources available in the community.

3.

Development of industry within the corrmunity should be limited
to industrial areas which could be expanded as needed.

4.

Support should be rendered those community organizations working
to bring light, diverse industry to the City.

5.

Large, heavy and/or polluting industries should be discouraged
as not being in confoY'TTlity with the goals and objectives of
Big Rapids.

6.

In order to accommodate the varying transportation needs of a
diverse industrial base, every effort should be exerted to
maintain adequate railway freight service to the community.

7.

Since any new industry represents a mixed blessing, efforts should
be made in advance to insure that the opportunities and problems
involved in industrial development balance one another.

8.

Prior to encouragement of any new industrial enterprise, an
assessment of the impact on existing community services, facilities
and schools should be conducted to insure proper planning.

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TRANSPORTATION SERVICES

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Goal

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Big Rapids should adopt a street program and a traffic flow plan which
recogn~zes that citizens employ the automobile as their main source of
transportation. Additionally, in order to meet the needs of citizens
who do not utilize the automobile, the City should support a system of
public transportation and also provide facilities to encoUI&gt;age bicycle
and pedestrian traffic.

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Implementation
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The City should continue and expand its program of curb, gutter,
street and sidewalk construction and maintenance; inasmuch as
this is for the public welfare, residential property owners should
bear little or no expense for this service.

2.

With the open~ng of the new Z3l Freeway and the probable resulting

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change in the use of city streets west of State Street, the
development of a pair of north-south one way streets should be seriously
considered in order to relieve congestion on State Street and
facilitate movement throughout the City .

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3.

The City should develop and maintain a public transportation service
supported by taxation, if necessary.

4.

The City should improve or construct sidewalks, with curb cuts,
throughout the City. First priority should be given to walks along
both sides of State Street and within the Central Business District.

5.

The City should construct street-side bicycle pathways ,to provide
for adequate intracity mobility through the use of the bicycle.

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�PARKS AND RECREATIONAL SERVICES
Goal

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The corrununity should seek to develop a broad-based parks and recreation
system which wiZZ provide for neighborlwod parks, nature preserves,

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outdoor recreational sports parks, and indoor multi-purpose
recreational facilities. The preservation of existing open space
areas free of organized recreation and aimed at use by entire faJT1iZies
should be encouraged; special attention should be given to placing
these facilities within walking distance of aZZ neighborhoods.

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Imp Zemen tat ion

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The City should seek to acquire Zand which is suitable to meet the
goal of establishing neighborhood park and recreation areas on a
city-wide basis.

2.

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3.

Natural preserve areas should be maintained in that character.

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4.

Motorized vehicles should be excluded from all park areas with
adequate parking provided on the perimeters.

5.

Construction of bike paths in all suitable parks with corrnectors
to street-side bike paths should be undertaken by the City.

6.

Corrununity recreation facilities should be considered in planning

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effort should be made to Zand.scape, by plantings and general
beautifications, all general park areas.

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for the construction of the new .armory.
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Creation of green areas within a Central Business District open-a~r
mall shall be provided as a part of an overall effort to develop an
attractive business area.

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8.

The maintenance and restoration of historical and scen~c sites
within the corrommity might include: (l) the conversion of the
Maple Street bridge to a year around pedestrian walkway and
river observation enclosure, -including lighting, landscaping,
picnic tables, seating and restrooms; and (2) preservation of
the old county jail as a public service facility.

9.

Development of specialized recreation areas to provide expanded

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facilities for winter activities should be undertaken.
lO.

All public park and recreation lands should be clearly
identified by signs.

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The City should make available and help to develop, cooperative
garden plots on undeveloped City-oumed lands.

l2.

Encourage and promote the continued study of planning for and
development of the Muskegon River areas as the prime natural
resource for the community.

l3.

Encourage the development of a Master Parks and Recreation Plan
through the appropriate currently established citizen boards in
order to achieve the desired implementations.

l4.

The beautification of the Mitchell Creek area throughout our
community should be encouraged.
PUBLIC WORKS SERVICES
Goals

All property in the City should have available City water, sanitary and
stoY'l71 sewer services which meet maximum performance standards for such
public utilities.

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Implementation

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Throughout the City, water pressure shall be sufficient to guarantee
the highest standards for fire protection and other normal uses.

2.

The City shall provide water and sanitary sewer lines for
connection at a lot line to each parcel of property in the City.

3.

The City shall continue to provide water which meets all federal,
state and local standards as established by law.

4.

The City shall provide for the treatment of sewage in a manner
which meets all laws and ordinances governing the same.

5.

The use of septic tanks within the City limits should be
systematically eliminated.

6.

The storm drain services provided should be adequate to protect
properties against any common seasonal flooding conditions.

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The City shall continue to provide such normally expected services
as sanitation pickup, street cleaning, leaf pickup and maintenance
of passable and safe street conditions during all seasons of the
year.
PUBLIC HEALTH AND SAFETY SERVICES

.Goal
In order to meet public health and safety needs, the City shall continue
and increase its efforts to provide, to all members of the community,
health and safety services of uniformly high quality.

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Implementation

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Established building and housing codes must .be reviewed regularly
and shall be meticulously enforced.

2.

The City must strive to better the health care delivery seroices of
the corrununity through continued support of the hospital. An
expanded effort to attract physicians and other necessary medical
personnel mu.st be implemented.

3.

Recognizing that improper handling of garbage leads to an unsightly
community and creates a potential health hazard, the citizens of
Big Rapids should be encouraged to dispose of accwrrulated waste of
all types in a manner consistent with sound environmental standards
and applicable City ordinances. In addition, the City must enforce
more vigorously the provisions of those ordinances.

4.

In o~der to protect the right of the individual to own domesticated
animals without the threat of infringement, owners must accept the
responsibility of housing and controlling the animal population in
a manner consistent with existing City codes and due respect for

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all citizens.
5.

Recognizing that physical facilities presently housing the City
offices, police and fire departments will restrict necessary
future growth and expansion of their activities, planning should
begin for the provision of additional facilities. As the corrmunity
grows it will be especially important to continue to provide public
safety seroices in which the people have confidence and which
, continue to improve in quality.
ANNEXATION

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The processes of annexation of unincorporated areas to the City should

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be COJ'e.fuUy studied to identify costs and benefits for both the
residents of any annexed 01'ea and residents of the City. Boundaries
should be designed to be more geographically regular and to give both
the most economical provision of City services and the level and types
of services desired by area residents.
THE CITY CHARTER

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Our City Cha.rter, ha.ving been adopted in l954, is badly ~n need of
revision and, therefore, should be completely rewritten and updated.

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PUBLIC PARTICIPATION IN GOVERNMENT
Citizens from all segments of the City should be actively sought and
encouraged to become more involved in the basic decision-making processes
of the City. Increased participation by residents, whether they be
elected, appointed or volunteer, will enable the City to be more
reflective of and responsive to the people. Much could be accomplished
by the use of more citizen advisory boards.
SPECIAL SERVICES
To aid in the mu.ch needed process of making City government more
responsive to the needs of all the people, efforts should be made to
develop special programs for special groups whenever such groups can
be identified and legitimate public responsibility established; youth
and senior citizens are examples of such groups.
THE CEMETERY

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The City should continue to provide for the planned development and
proper maintenance of a publicly-owned cemetery.

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�THE ENVIRONMENT
quality environment relating to a variety of factors including a1.-r,
wter, and noise, is important to the general welfare of all the
comTTU.nity. Deterioration of any environmental factor has the potential
of far reaching consequences ranging from a loss of corrmunity character,
to a decline in property values, and hazards to the health and safety
of the populace.
Each citizen and public agency should recognize the
value of high quality environmental standards and anticipate the impact
of any action on the environment prior to implementation. Such forethought will ensure the continuance of a h.e althy and ever improving
wy of life in Big Rapids.
A

CITY BEAUTIFICATION
Public welfare is a broad and inclusive concept; public welfare
includes the aesthetic as well as the monetary. The aesthetic well
being of people is a valid part of it. All citizens should begin to
realize that a visually satisfying city can stirrrulate an identity and
pride which is the foundation for social responsibility and good
citizenship.
Big Rapids should take advantage of and improve upon the natural beauty
of its environment. Examples of specific concerns which will require
immediate attention should include:
l.

Thorough enforcement of strict sign controls.

2.

Improved design, tree planting and landscaping of public property,
such as parking lots.

3.

Maintenance of the natural state of the Muskegon River area.

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�4.

Preservation of our cultural heritage by protecting the few
remaining buildings which architecturally reflect the l9th
century origin of our City, such as the old jail.

5.

Development of a harmonious architectural design and landscaping
concept to be implemented by a City Design Review Board.
THE LIBRARY

The City shall continue to provide a centrally located public library
building with suitable materials and a competent staff. Although
all of these Goals may not relate specifically to the planning process,
they indicate the attitude of the corrommity and provide a basis upon
which the planning of the City may be accomplished.

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IISCII SIi

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11111

BIG

RAPIDS

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LOCATION

MAP

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•
M
SCAU ......._

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�BASE MAP
COM,-IIEHENSIVE

BIG
1 000

Joto

100 0

••••

DEVELOPMENT

PLAN

RAPIDS, MICHIGAN

111,

ltDWAIIOS ,

JOHNSON ,

MILLI

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ASSOCIATES!

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DESCRIPTION OF THE PLANNING AREA

rBig Rapids is located in Mecosta County in west central

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Michigan at the southern edge of what is considered the
"North" in Lower Michigan.

The study area includes the

City of Big Rapids and a "buffer strip" approximately
one-quarter mile wide around the City.

Although this

surrounding "strip" is not under the jurisdiction of the
City, the planning of the area contained within it will
provide a m~thod of coordination between the City and
Big Rapids Township for future development.
The City is served by two highways:

U. S. 131, a north-

south highway which runs from Petoskey, in Northern Michigan,
south to the Michigan-Indiana border, and M-20, an eastwest highway providing a circuitous link between east

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Michigan and west Michigan.

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Big Rapids is located approximately 42 miles west of Mt.

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Pleasant, 57 miles north of Grand Rapids, 40 miles south
of Cadillac and 66 miles northeast of Muskegon.

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Big Rapids is a self-sufficient community with a diversi-

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system offers grades K-12.

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fication of land uses, including residential, commercial,
industrial, educational and recreational.

The school

One of the major employers

and land users in the City is Ferris State College.

The

College, founded in 1884, has grown steadily to reach its

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present enrollment of over 9,200.

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The City is located on the banks of the Muskegon River.

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The swift current of the river prompted early settlers to
refer to the area as "the Big Rapids".

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Although the river

�is long, traversing the State from Missaukee County to
Lake Michigan, it is unnavigable for commercial use and is
not expected to be used as a means of commercial transportation in the foreseeable future.

The primary importance

for the river appears to be in its aesthetic value to the
area.
POPULATION
The comprehensive study of a community is, in essence, the
study of the people in the ·community.

All factors which

are involved in the study of a community relate directly
to the population.

The people are the determining factor

in deciding what will be done with the landscape of the
country.

They will determine, inevitably, the future of a

community's economy, or in general, what kind of community
will exist in the future.
It is n~t difficult, therefore, to understand the importance
of population studies in the preparation of a generalized,
long-range comprehensive plan.

One should realize that the

purpose of all facilities and services in the community is
to satisfy the physical, economic, social, cultural and
governmental needs of the population.
Population History
The first white settlers arrived in Mecosta County in 1851
and the County was organized in 1859.

Most of the initial

growth took place in the vicinity of what is now Big Rapids.
The early settlers took advantage of the river to build a
sawmill around which the early economy flourished.

The

population of the County grew from 970 in 1860 to 20,693
in 1900.

Since the turn of the century, the number of

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inhabitants has varied from a low of 15,788 in 1930 to a
high of approximately 28,000 in 1970.

A comparison of

the population growth in the Nation, State and surrounding
counties and communities since 1950 (TABLE #1) reveals:

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POPULATION COMPARISONS
1950, 1960, 1970

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Change

1970
Population

Change

179,323,175

18.9

203,184,772

13.3

6,371,766

7,823,194

22.7

8,875,083

13.4

Mecosta County

18,968

21,051

11.0

27,992

33.0

Osceola County

13,797

13,595

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14,838

9.1

Montcalm County

31,013

35,795

15 .4

39,660

10.8

6,736

8,686

29.0

11,995

38.1

698

789

13. 0

1,687

113.8

2,241

2,184

-2.5

2,286

4.7

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1960-70

1950-60

United States
Michigan

1950
Population

1960
Population

150,697,361

%

%

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Big Rapids
Big Rapids Twp
Reed City

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Source:

Bureau of the Census

It is apparent from the U.S. Census figures on population
that the City of Big Rapids has been a continuing leader
among the surrounding area communities in total growth.
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Although Big Rapids Township has more than doubled its size

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relatively slow.

from 1960 to 1970, its growth to that time had been

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During the ten years 1950~1960, the Nation, State
Mecosta and Montcalm Counties and Big Rapids all
experienced an increase in population in excess of

11%.

Reed City and Osceola County to the north

experienced a decrease in population.
2.

During the succeeding ten years 1960-1970, all
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units of government showned an increase in
population.

The large percentage change in the

population of Big Rapids Township, which surrounds
the City, can be attributed to some annexing and
deannexing which took place between the Township
and the City during the 1960's.

A significant

point, however, is the large increase in population
for both the County and the City in the last ten
years.

The 33 and 38% increase in the Big Rapids

area indicates a possible in-migration to the area
from other portions of the State.

Some of this

increase in population can also be attributed to
the increase in enrollment at Ferris State College.
Current Population
· In May 1976, an update was conducted of dwelling units in
the City including housing on the campus at Ferris State
College.

Following is a summary of that housing count:

Housing Type

Units

Single Family
Duplex
Multiple Family
Mobile Homes
Federal Housing
Fraternity Houses
Married Student Apts. (Ferris)
Dormitory Rooms (Ferris)

1,460
322
629
138
175

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7

424
3,037
6,192

Persons
Per Unit

3.2
2.3
2.3
2.3
2.3
20.0
2.3
2.0

Total

4,672
741
1,447
317
403
140
975
6,074
14,772

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The number of persons per unit is based on the 1970 U. S.

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Ce nsus as well as known and estimated figures.

represents the current population of Big Rapids estimated
as of May 1976.

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TABLE t/2.

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POPULATION BY AGE GROUPS - 1970 &amp; 1976
Selected Connnunities and State of Michigan

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The total

Age Group
Years

Ten Michigan
Cities

State of
Michigan

City of Big RaEids
Pop.
Pop.

1970

%

1976

%

%

Under 5

622

5.2

768

8.1

9.1

5-11

747

6.3

931

14.9

14.8

12-14

387

3.2

473

6.4

6.6

15-17

405

3.4

502

6.9

6.1

18-24

6,214

51.7

7,637

9.3

11.6

25-44

1,569

13.1

1,935

22.2

23.5

45-64

1,311

10.9

1,610

20.8

19.8

740

6.2

916

11.4

8.5

100.0%

100.0%

65 &amp; Over

11,995

100.0% 14,772

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1970 Population and percentages from 1970 U. S. Census
1976 Population estimates by Edwards, Johnson, Mills &amp; Associates

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Ten Michigan Citie s - Cadillac, Charlotte, Coldwater, Fenton,
Flushing, Greenville, Huntington Woods,
Ludington, Manistee and Marshall

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As can be noted by comparing the percentage columns, Big
Rapids has an inordinate amount of its population in the
18-24 year age group.

This is because students at Ferris

were counted as being residents of the City.

estimated that of the total 1976 population, slightly more
than half or about 7,500 to 8,000 persons comprise the

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It is

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"resident" population of Big Rapids.

The ten Michigan cities

were selected for comparison purposes because they all have

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populations ranging from 7,000 to 10,000 . .
Housing Characteristics
The m.ajority of housing units . in Big Rapids are thirty years
old or older.

The U.S. Census "Detailed Housing

Characteristics" in 1970 indicated that over 56% of the
existing housing was built prior to 1940.

During the 1940's,

relatively few units (4.5%) were constructed but building
increased in the 1950's when 12.5% were built.

In the

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1960's, 24.6% of the existing housing structures were built.

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Other characteristics of the residential units in Big
Rapids are indicative of the overall adequacy of housing.

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Following is a summary of the characteristics as documented
from the 1970

u.

S. Census.

Based on 3,069 units:

--1.8% (54) of all housing either had no bathroom

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or a bathroom is shared by another household,
--8% (255) of all housing units had as their
source of water individual wells not from
the public system,
--5% (156) of all housing units were not
connected to the public sewer system but
disposed of sewage by means of a septic
tank or other means,
--All residential units had some kind of
heating equipment installed,

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--47% (1,440) of the total housing consisted of
single-family detached dwellings,
--3% (88) of the dwelling units were mobile homes.
It may be noted that by comparing the total housing structures
in 1970 with the 1976 housing count (Page 4), the numbers are
quite different.

Although the census publication does not

state specifically, i t is assumed that the 1970 figures
count each Ferris Residence Hall as one structure.

Also,

since it is known that all housing on the campus has
complete plumbing, the previously stated characteristics
are assumed to apply to the housing within the City proper.

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Housing Conditions

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Accompanying the growth of any community is the problem of

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deterioration of portions of that community.

As new areas

develop away from the original core of the community, the
structures in the older area become obsolete in terms of
space adequacy and updated building requirements.

As a

result, these structures often require extensive and

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expensive repair.

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survey to note existing housing conditions was accomplished

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To determine to what extent this

situation may have affected the City of Big Rapids, a
in April, 1974, by City officials.
The noted conditions of the dwelling units in the City are
with regard to exterior conditions of the structures including
~lectrical, mechanical and plumbing equipment.

criteria were used to classify the units during the survey:

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The following

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Sound - Housing which is apparently structurally
safe and free from defects.
Deteriorating - Housing which is apparently
structurally safe but requiring minor maintenance.

3.

Dilapidate d - Housing which needs major structural
repair to prevent injury to persons or damage to
contents.

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Throughout the City there were no concentrated areas of
dilapidated housing.

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All portions of the City did, however,

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have some dilapidated structures with as many as six cf these

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total housing units were considered in need of major repair.

units on one s t reet.

Approximately one-third of all housing was in a deteriorating
condition.

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According to the survey, 2% of the

Most of these units were located in the same

general area as the dilapidated housing.

This indicates

that if repair work does not take place in the near future,
pockets of blighted housing will begin emerging, creating a
situation that could be irreversible.

Follbwing is a table

indicating the result of the housing survey:
Number

Percentage

Housing Structures
(Outside College)

1,758

100%

Sound

1,148

66%

567

32%

43

2%

Deteriorating
Dilapidated
Source:

Housing Study by the City of Big
Rapids - 1974

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As the growth in population in Dig Rapids continues, it will
be necessary to improve the existing housing which is now in
either a deteriorating or dilapidated condition.

The

existing housing must be able to meet the minimum standards
of the now enacted State Construction Code.

An active

community program :to promote a "paint-up, fix-up" campaign
would provide the necessary impetus to rehabilitate areas
which contain less than sound housing structures.

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Neighborhoods
Residential functions have been and will continue to be one

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of Big Rapids' largest land users.

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and a larger percentage is expected in the future.

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Approximately 35% of

the developed land is classified as residential in character
Residential land use, therefore, is an important part of
the City's COMPREHENSIVE PLAN.
The residential land use section of the COMPREHENSIVE PLAN
must satisfy the many types of needs that the present and
future residents of the community require.· One method
especially effective in recognizing and rationally planning
for the satisfaction of these needs, is to plan on the
basis of neighborhoods.
The neighborhood concept provides a practical basis for the
development of planned residential areas and the provision

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by residents of these neighborhoods in their day-to-day

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activities.

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of many public facilities and conditions that are required
It is the responsibility of the City to begin to

form the basic structure for desirable neighborhoods by
guiding residential development and land uses in accordance
with the following planning principles and standards, many

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of which will be developed in greater detail in the
COM.MUNITY FACILITIES STUDY.
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NEIGH BORHOOOS
COMPREHENSIVE

BIG
1 000

,ooo

DEVELOPMENT

PLAN

RAPIDS, MICHIGAN

JOOt

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!EDWAIIDI,

JOHNSON ,

MILLS

&amp;

ASSOCIATES!

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Boundary - Where possible, neighborhoods should be bounded
by major thoroughfares, railroads and natural barriers
such as rivers and other bodies of water.

In some cases,

these neighborhood boundaries may have to be altered to
include areas that would otherwise remain unserved.
Size - Neighborhoods should encompass enough land to
accommodate a sufficient population . to support an elementary
school.
Elementary School - An elementary_ school with an adjacent
neighborhood park-playground should be located within a
reasonable walking distance of the majority of homes in the
neighborhood, preferably in the approximate center of the
area and removed from a major thoroughfare.
Street Pattern - The internal street system of the neighborhood should be designed to discourage fast, through traffic

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in order to attain quiet, pleasant and safe residential

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residential blocks to eliminate costly street maintenance

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Collector streets should be provided to tie local streets

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living.

Future street patterns should provide longer

and to provide more area for residential development.
to the major thoroughfares that help to delineate the
neighborhood.
In summary, a well-planned neighborhood should be suited for
every day family living.
pleasant and efficient.

It should be safe, healthful,
Achievement of this objective is

'dependent on physical conditions, site improvements, population

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densities, traffic patterns . and the availability of public

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facilities.

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For planning purposes, the Big Rapids Planning Area has been
divided into four tentative neighborhoods.

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These neighborhoods

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have been based on present and potential development of

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the City and the adj a cent area, plus the locations of

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U. S. 131 (State Street), Mitchell Creek and the

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Muskegon River.
For the purposes of future identification, the neighborhoods
will be referred to as follows:
Neighborhood #1 - The southeast portion of the
City bounded on the west by

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S. 131, on the

north by Mitctteli' Creek and Hemlock Street and
on the east by the Muskegon River,
Neighborhood #2 - The southwest portion of the
City bounded on the north by Mitchell Creek and
on the east by U. S. 131 (State Street),
Neighborhood #3 - The northwest portion of the
City bounded on the east by the Muskegon River
and on the south by Mitchell Creek,
Neighborhood #4 - The northeast portion of the
City bounded on the west by the Muskegon River,
including all of the land area east of the River.
Each of the four neighborhood areas have distinctive
features which will affect future planning and development
of the community.

An examination of the existing land

use patterns in each neighborhood reveals:
Neighborhood #1 contains the principal shopping
district in the City.

It also contains the majority

of Ferris State property.

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This neighborhood contains

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the greatest population of the four tentative

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n e ighborhoods although it has only one school,
Riverside Elementary.

Tp serve the business

district there are numerous small city-owned
parking lots.

Other governmental functions

include the City Hall, County Administration
buildings, hospital and library.

Future

development in this area -would include the
expansion of the Central Business District.
Neighborhood :/f2 appears to be the neighborhood
in which the greatest amount of future growth
would take place.

Most of the present development

is in a three-to-four block area west of State

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Street and in the southwest corner which is occupied
by Ferris State.

The school in this neighborhood

is Brookside Elementary.

There is a large

commercial area fronting on State Street, one

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block in depth and approximately 2,000 feet long.
Most future development would appear to be single
family homes.
Neighborhood #3, an area of approximately 700 acres,
contains the high school, Hillcrest Elementary School,
the airport, cemetery, fai'rgrounds, City filtration
plant and senior citizens center.

This neighborhood

contains a great deal of undeveloped area adjacent
to the west City limits.

This undeveloped area

would conceivably be the area of future growth.

l

Neighborhood #4, east of the River, is the largest
yet least populated, of all the tentative
neighborhoods.

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Most of the area is not platted.

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�The only plats are near the railroad which
bisects the area in a northwest-southeast direction.
There is one public school, Eastwood Elementary,
some City property including the City Garage and
some public housing located north of Maple Street
near the River.

The River physically separates

this neighborhood from the rest of the City except
for two streets, Baldwin Street and Maple Street.
From a preliminary observation, it would appear
that future development in this area would be in
the form of some multiple housing and some industry.
The problems which have emerged through development of the
City and which can be solved by the application of the
previously mentioned neighborhood concepts are typical
throughout the community.

They are as follows:

--Small City blocks which are created by numerous
cross-streets.

Larger blocks could be made by

closing unneeded cross-streets and encouraging
street patterns which are compatible 'with the
type of development planned for a specific area.
--The use of many local or residential $treets for
cross-City traffic.

Major arterials could be

either created or developed to bound and serve
each neighborhood.

This would permit the

interior of a designated neighborhood to develop
as it is planned to be developed.
LAND USE SURVEY AND ANALYSIS
One of the basic building blocks of the Comprehensive
Planning process is the survey and analysis of a community's

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existing land use pattern.

This survey is an inventory

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of how the comnmnity's land is presently being used.

i(.

is an important early step in the development of a general,

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long-range, comprehensive plan.

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With this land use information in hand, the general
-

character of Big Rapids can be examined in the light of
planning concepts and principles.

Emerging development

trends can be identified, land use deficiencies can be

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determined and evaluated and future development potentials
can be established.

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The land use map and tabulations of this report will
provide a ready reference for day-to-day planning and
zoning proposals.

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They should also provide a source of

factual information about Big Rapids which will be useful
to . residents, businessmen and school and township officials.

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This report does not make recommendations or proposals for

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a future land use pattern.

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presented in the COMPREHENSIVE PLAN .

These proposals will be

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Survey Methodology and Procedures

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The inventory of existing land uses was made by Big Rapids

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City officials.

Land use was determined for every parcel

and lot ·within the City and beyond, within the . "P larining
Area".

Land use calculations were made by Edwards,

Johnson, Mills

&amp;

Associates.

The general procedure for portraying land use data is to
show on a map, in appropriate colors and screen patterns,
the various uses of land such as residential, commercial,

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industrial, public and semi-public, agricultural and vacant.
Aerial photos and U.S.G.S. maps were used to check base map
accuracy and obtain the general character of development.
Despite the care taken to maintain accuracy in land use
classification by lot, it must be recognized that minor

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variations may have been introduced by the element of
human judgment.

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The use of land is graphically shown on the generalized
Existing Land Use Map found in this report.

The statistical

tables found in this report are based on calculations made
from the land use data noted on this map.

Existing land

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uses were also shown on a larger wall map with each land

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Land Use Categories

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use designated by a color coding system.

Land uses have been divided into major categories for
evaluation and clarity and reflect the Standard Land Use
Classification System.

The following categdries have · been

established for this survey:
Single-Family Residential - Area on which a
one-family dwelling unit ·is located.
Multiple-Family Residential - Area on which
there are two or more dwelling units per

t.

residential structure.

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Commercial - Parcels, with or without structures,
on which goods are sold and personal and
business services are provided.

This includes

retail sales of goods, business and personal

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services and offices, including medical,

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professional, real estate and insurance.

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Industrial - Parcels, with or without

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structures, on which wholesaling, manu-

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facturing, processing, storage of finished
or semi-finished products predominate.
Public - Land areas and facilities which

,-,

are available to the public or owned by
the government.

This includes such uses

as schools, parks, libraries, fire stations,
sewage treatment plarit, police station and

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other governmental buildings and uses.

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Semi-Public - Land areas and buildings which

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are used by a limited number of persons with
particular interest who do not have a profit
as their principal motive.

Included in this

category are such buildings and uses as
churches, parochial schools, cemeterie~,

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country clubs, fraternal organizations and
oth~r similar activities.

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Transportation - This category includes all
-

land and facilities utilized in the movement
of people and goods.

This includes railroad

and street rights-of-way.
Vacant and Agricultuial - Parcels on which

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farming or undeveloped land uses predominate.

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This classification applies to farms and

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undeveloped land, including wooded and scrub
areas and undeveloped portions of large parcels.

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LAND USE ANALYSIS
An examination of the planning area's existing land use
pattern reveals:
1.

Approximately 37 % of the 6.0 square miles
in the City is presently undeveloped.

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2.

Most of the communityts development is within
the City limits, west of the Muskegon River.

3.

Commercial development is located along
State Street (U. S. 131), and -Michigan
Avenue, with the major concentration of

,,

business near the center of the City at
the intersection of .Michigan Avenue and
Maple Street.

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Almost all of the business

development is located on shallow lots
fronting on major roads.

II

The commercial

development is undesirable along State
Street in that business traffic an'd

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through traffic on the highway are

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intermixed.
4.

The majority of industrial land uses are

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generally located in the northeastern portion

1·

of the community.

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5.

With a few exceptions, which will be discussed
in subsequent pages, there does not appear to
be a great deal of ·intermixing of incompatible
land uses.

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6.

One area of significant development outside
the City limits is to the north, on either
side of the

u.

S, 131 highway~

The compact development in the City and the general absence
of intermixed land uses in the concentrated residential areas
indicates a history of relatively orderly growth in Big
Rapids.

There are a few areas, however, that will require

special attention.

These will be discussed later and will

be ' reflected in the COMPREHENSI~E PLAN.
The summary of all land uses, by acreage and percent for the
total planning area is shown in accompanying tables.
TABLE f/3.

% of

Total Acres
in City

Land Use
Residential
Commercial
Industrial
Public
Semi-Public
Transportation
Streets
Rail
River
Ferris State*
Undeveloped**
TOTAL

EXISTING LAND USES--BIG RAPIDS; MICHIGAN

Total

496.0
68.6
36.2
434.5
18.6

15.7%
2.2
1.1
13.7

.6

340.0
27.5
110.1
450.0
1 188.5

10.8
.9
3.5
14.2
37.3

3,170.0

100. 0%

*Not included in study.
**Includes agricultural land.
Source:

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Land Use Survey - 1974

... is ...

Developed
Acres
in City

% of
Developed

496. 0
68.6
36.2
434.5
18.6

35.0%
4.8
2.5
30.5
1.3

340.0
27.5

24.0
1.9

1,421.4

100.0%

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Following are some observations concerning land use
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development in Big Rapids for specific categories:
Residential
--The majority of single-family residences are located
in an area approximately one-half mile wide and one
and one-half miles long west- of State Street.

This

area also contains approximately sixty duplex and
multiple family dwellings.
--Most of the multiple-family dwellings in the City
are in an area south of the Central Business District
east of State Street.

/ ~,
--Approximately 385 / residential structures are located
east of the Muskegon River in the City and, except
for access via the Maple Street Bridge and the Baldwin
Stree~ Bridge, are physically- separated from the major
portion of Big Rapids. ~.._________,..;.--ThirtyJf the residences in
this area have been classified as dilapidated.
(See Page 8) •

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--A large number of residences in "older" sections of

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the City are located on lots with areas less than
10,000 square feet.

Newer developed residential

sections have larger, generally 12,000 square feet,
lots.

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Commercial
--The Central Business District in Big Rapids is located
primarily on Michigan Avenue, with additional business

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�facilities along State Street (U.

s.

131).

Businesses

outside the City occupy larger tracts and are primarily

in a general business category:

building supplies,

body shops and automobile dealerships.

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--At the present time, commercial uses along State Street
and Michigan Avenue account for most of the total
business land use area in the City.

These businesses,

however, are extended along State Street and, except
near the center of the City, are not concentrated.
They consist mostly of service stations and business
offices located in converted residences.
Although this commercial land use pattern does not present
a major problem at this time, further development of this
type should be discouraged.

Businesses which are located

along major thoroughfares become sources of automobile
traffic which interfere with through highway traffic.

It

is desirable that businesses be located in compact, welldesigned shopping centers which afford the combination of
safety and convenience to customers and which will not
interfere with other activities in the community.
The reader is referred to the section on Commercial Ribbon
Development for more details on this type of development.
Industrial
--Total industrial land use in Big Rapids occupies a small
area.

There is a total of thirty-six acres of land

devoted to industrial use.
--Most sites are well located in that they are provide.a
with reasonably good access to transportation facilities.

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--There are no concentrations of various industrial sites

If ·

however, so if further development is not controlled,
an intermixing of land uses and industrial and residential

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traffic could occur in the future.

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Public

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--There are approximately 435 acres of land uses for public
facilities in the Big Rapids planning area.

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--Most of the public land in the City is used for the airport,
cemetery and fairgrounds.

The other uses consist of

various City and County administration and maintenance

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facilities and parks and schools.

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Semi-Public

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--Most of the semi-public land is used for a number of
churches.

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Transportation

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--This land use, which includes ·all streets, alleys,
parking lots and railroads is the second largest land
use category in the community included in this study.

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Ferris State College
--The College, which is the second over-all user of land
, in the community, is not included in this study as it
administers its own use of land.

It is separated from

the rest of the City, occupying the southern tier of

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Big Rapids on either side of U. S. 131.

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Muskegon River
--The River, which extends from the northern City limits
southeasterly to the southern City limits, is considered
for the purposes of this report as marginally developable

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and, therefore, not included in the LAND USE STUDY.
Vacant and Agricultural
--This land, occupying more than one-third of the total
area of the City, represents the area of future develop-

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ment.

Approximately one-half of all undeveloped vacant

land is located northeast of the River and most of the

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other vacant land is located on the west side of the

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City.

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It is anticipated that most future residential

growth will take place in the westerly portion.

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Comparison of Developed Land Use

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The previous subsection has indicated the breakdown in

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land use in the planning area and has shown ~the percentage
of total land that is devoted to each category.

considering future development, it is interesting to know
how the subject community compares with other communities
in terms of land use distribution.

The following table

indicates the percentage of developed land that is found
in each category and compares these percentages with other
communities.

As can be seen in the table, Big Rapids compares

with other communities in the land use categories devoted to
residential, commercial and industrial and railroad use.
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When

�TABLE /; 4.

COMPARISON OF DEVELOP ED LAND USE PERCENTAG ES
Bi g Rapids and Ten Sel ec ted Communit i e s

Big Ra pids

Ten Selecte d
Cornmunl ties*'''

Residential

35.0%

38.9%

Commercial

4.8

4.0

Industrial &amp;
Railroad

4.4

3.5

Public &amp;
Semi-Public

31.8*

14.3

Streets
Roads

24.0

39.3

100.0%

100.0%

La nd Us e

Source:

&amp;

*Does not include Ferris State College.
**Studies by Edwards, Johnson, Mills &amp; Associa_tes
for Davison, East Tawas, Kingston, Mancelona,
Manton, Mayville, Millington, Reed City, Reese
and Rogers City, Michigan. ·

This comp a rison is cited primarily as a matter 0f interest ·
to the reader and is not intended to serve as a guideline
for further planning.

Commercial Ribbon Development
Early business establishments located along well traveled
thoroughfares, such as State Street, in order to provide
customer convenience for the motorist.
true of present-day communities.

This is no longer

Tod a y, this strip

development falls far short of present-day needs and
presents some serious problems.

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�COMMERCIAL RIBBON

DEVELOPMENT

COMPREHENSIVE

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DEVELOPMENT

PLAN

RAPIDS, MICHIGAN

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&amp;

ASSOCIATES]

�This strip has been used as an example because it clearly
demonstrates the problem brought about by this type of
d~velopment that should be avoided in future commercial
development by using adequate zoning controls.
--The location of retail stores is inconvenient
for customers.
--Insufficient off-street parking discourages
customers.
--Related retail uses are not · grouped together.
The numerous non-retail uses become "dead
spots" within the retail area.

Also, the

spread of retail uses requires the shopper
to make a large number of vehicular stops.
--Strip development encourages mixed land
uses and often results in idle, unproductive
land.
--Through highway traffic mixed with turning
local traffic creates a definite safety
hazard.
For these and other reasons, the City should discourage
strip commercial development.

All of the above factors

tend, in time, to bring about a general decline in property
maintenance and values.

The area becomes unattractive,

cluttered with signs, presenting a general appearance of
I

disorder and often resulting in blight.

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�STREETS AND ROADS STUDY
The streets and roads in a comrnuhity are generally one of
the major land uses in terms of total acres of rights-ofway.

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As noted in the LAND USE SURVEY AND ANALYSIS, about

340 acres, or about 24% of the total developed land area,
is devoted to street right-of-way.

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The average community contains twenty-seven to twenty-nine

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percent of its total developed area in streets.

This too,

is considered excessive, when cornrared to a carefully
planned community that could contain as little as twenty

I

to twenty-two percent of its land area in streets.

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There are three factors which create this slight overage
of land usage:

d-

1.

Most of the streets in the City are in a
grid pattern with short blocks and
numerous cross streets,

2.

platted rights-of-way of sixty-six feet, and

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Most of the City residential streets have

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3.

The highway uses a great deal of land area.

1·-

As a result of this extra quantity of land area being used

.l.

for street rights-of-way, land which could be more
economically developed is owned by the community.

This

land is not taxable, cannot be developed unless it is
1·

vacated by the City and, .in the case of the numerous
unnecessary cross streets, extra maintenance such as snow
removal and surface repairs are required at the expense

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�of the community.

It could also be stated that each

intersection presents a potential traffic hazard.
Gravel surfaced streets and roads are found throughout
the planning area.

At the time of the survey, these roads

appeared to be in good condition.

Like most unpaved

surfaces, however, they require periodic maintenance
throughout the year to prevent rutting and erosion.
The remaining platted streets, those which are not open
for use, constitute only a small portion of the total.
Although the majority of these platted streets are in the
City, they are on the fringe of the developed areas and
do not create open, unused space within the core of the
City.
· Intersections
In terms of traffic safety, as few intersections as possible
are desirable and should be T-intersections and ninety degree
four-way intersections.

Seventy degree intersections are

acceptable, where necessary.

Intersections which should be

avoided are those with an intersecting angle of less than
seventy degrees and intersections with railroad tracks.
Within the planning area, the most common of the undesirable
intersections are those at the railroad tracks.

Except for

major traffic carriers, street-railroad intersections should
be closed and the street ended in a cul-de-sac (court) or
turned (looped) to join other streets.
Incomplete Streets
One of the problems that is created in a community which is
only partially developed, ·is streets and roci.ds which are not
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MINIMUM
CLIA8ANCI

EXISTING

STREET

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PROBLEMS
DEVELOPMENT

PLAN

RAPIDS, MICHIGAN

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fully completed or streets which have dead ends.

An

incomplete street system can result in parcels of land
being landlocked and installation of utilities being hind2red
as a result of no public right-of-way to follow.

Although

this is not a major problem in Big Rapids at this time,
consideration should be given to existing and future
development to avoid additional expense.
Summary

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All of the above discussions repr~sent potential ~roblem
areas in the redevelopment of the community.

In many cases,

the problems are the result of poor platting practices

I

which took place during early development of the community
or the lack of public funds necessary for construction and
j

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maintenance.

·1

of development along major highways, railroads and waterways.

In most cases, these problems are the result

These problems are summarized below and illustrated

on the accompanying map .

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--Unpaved Road Surfaces--Either gravel or dirt.
This is a result of a lack of funds or of
streets being platted without a need for them.
--Short City Blocks--Generally less than 550 feet

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long.

This is a result of the grid street

system and an excessive number of unneeded
cross streets.
--Excessively Wide Rights-of-way--For most local
residential streets, rights-of-way of 60 feet
are adequate.

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�--Narrow Rights-of-way--44 and 50 feet.

These

narrow rights-of-way are less than the desired
60 feet right-of-way width.
--Problem Intersections--Angles of less than seventy
degrees and at railroads. These intersections all
represent potential traffic hazards.

Another

type of undesired intersection is caused when
a street is not align.ed from one sicle to the
other of a cross street.
--Incomplete Streets--Platted streets which deadend with no outlet.
Corrections of these and other problems should be considered
before any extensive· development takes place.

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Some of the

standards which are employed in the development of the
street system in the Big Rapids planning area are ·as
follow:
--There should be a minimum of street iritersections.
This can be accomplished by vacating or closing
specific streets and creating longer blocks
(minimum 800 feet, preferably 1,200 feet) in both
presently developed and proposed-to-be developed
areas.
--When feasible, T-intersections should be used
instead of four-way intersections~

All inter-

sections should be designed with ninety degree
angles.

In no case, shoulcl the intersection be

less than seventy degrees.

Intersections which

do not align should be eliminated or corrected.

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--Where a street parallels a railroad or a major
arterial, a minimum of two hundred feet from the
railroad or arterial should be maintained.
--Residential streets should have a minimum of sixty
feet right-of-way.
Solutions to some of the problems, such as surfacing, can
only be accomplished when the need arises or when funds
are available.
FUTURE LAND USE PLAN
The basic facilities which have the most effect on the
development of a community are those which concern the
daily activities of the population - living, working and
leisure-time facilities.

This FUTURE LAND USE PLAN indicates

the recommended future location of the areas in which these
facilities will

be

found.

Residential Areas
Residential areas are proposed to be located in all
neighborhoods in the planning area.

The greatest concentration

of residential land use is proposed in the City of Big Rapids
with fringe developments concentrated to the north and west
of the City limits.

Although most of the residential land

use areas will be developed for single-family dwellings,
there is expected to be a need in the future for multiple
family structures.

These multi-family areas are well suited

to act as buffers between commercial and single family
development.

Presently, most of the duplex and multi-family

dwellings are located in the area between the C.B.D. and
the Ferris Campus and along State Street.

Further develop-

ment of this kind is proposed in the same area to serve two
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LAND

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DEVELOPMENT

PLAN

RAPIDS, MICHIGAN

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JONNION .• IIIILLS

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ASSOCIATES !

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--

�purposes:

(1) Discourage the growth of the C.B.D. to the

south, and (2) Discourage further development of commercial
uses along State Street.
Commercial Areas
The primary purpose of the commercial areas in Big Rapids
is to serve the residents of the community and the surrounding
regions.

Preliminary studies indicate that there should be

two classifications of businesses in the study area:
(1)

Commercial shopping or Central Business District (C.B.D.),

and (2) General commercial.

The former classification is

proposed to contain a variety of retail establishments but
is oriented specifically to the pedestrian shopper.

It is

proposed that the retail outlets in the C.B.D. be grouped
together, connected only by pedestrian walkways or green
areas.

Automobile parking areas should be on the outside

perimeter of the stores so that there will be no intermixing
of vehicular and pedestrian traffic.

The general commercial

areas are proposed to contain retail establishments which
depend on the use of the automobile for their business:
service stations, automobile dealerships, and various
highway service facilities.

By comparison, general

commercial areas are composed of large land areas

(five or

more acres) and contain their own parking and traffic
movement spaces.
Based on information from publishers of area "buyers guides",
customers to the Big Rapids commercial area come from a
radius of 30-35 miles or from Baldwin, White Cloud, Lakeview;
Howard City, Remus and Barryton.

Although these areas are

served by other larger cities, the market area for the Big
Rapids commercial district includes portions of five West-

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Central Michigan Counties.

These surrounding counties, with

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a total population of over 110,000, provide a potential of
over 30,000 customers even when shared by other communities.
Although an accepted standard* states that there should be
an average of three acres of developed commercial land area
for each 1,000 persons served, that figure should be used
as a guide only.

Primary consideration should be given to

the location of the commercial areas and to encourage the
best use of the designated areas.

The 1966 CENTRAL

BUSINESS DISTRICT RENEWAL PLAN recommended the area bounded
by State, Hemlock, Linden and Warren as the Central Area
be developed.

This study recommends that the C.B.D. be

further extended to the east to Stewart Street north of
Maple.

General commercial areas should include the area

north of the C.B.D. between State and the River except
for the high school and park lands, and an area presently
developed on South State across from the Campus but
enlarged to include the blocks surrounded by Fuller,
Division, Perry and State.
In addition, it is proposed that a large area south of
Fuller, extending from Division to the west City limits north
of Perry Avenue extended, be designated as a "General
Commercial Park".

This area would border on the proposed

business loop (Perry Avenue) for the proposed U. S. 131
Freeway.

It is recommended that this commercial area not

have direct access to the business loop but instead be
served by special access roads.

This Commercial Park would

provide the necessary spaces for vehicle dealerships and
similar businesses which have need for large display lots.
It is anticipated that when the business loop continues

*The Community Bu i ld e rs Ha ndbook, Urban Land Institute--1968.

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to the Freeway interchange approximately one mile west of
the City, other highway service areas will be developed in
·Big Rapids Township.

A report by the Michigan Department

of State Highways and Transportation* describes the routing
of the proposed Freeway and lists the effects that it will
have on the community.
Industrial Areas
- The Big Rapids planning area presently has approximately
36 acres of industrial land area, most of which is located
in the northeast portion of the City.

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There are no particular standards which can be applied to
determine land area requirements for industrial use.
Industrial areas are determined by:
1.

Demand for expansion by manufacturers,

2.

Available space for expansion,

3.

Available resources and facilities such as
water, raw materials, labor force and

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transportation, and
4.

Attitudes of the community.

Although the land areas presently devoted to industrial use
are sufficient, it is the desire of the City to make more
land available with the intention of encouraging new
industrial growth.

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The area recommended in the FUTURE LAND

USE plan for the majority of this industrial growth is

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located in the northeast portion of Big Rapids.

This area,

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*Engineering Report 1846, LOCATION OF US-131--1974 State of
Michigan, Department of Highways and Transportation.

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�in addition to the existing industrial area, provides
approximatel y 130 acres of industrial land area for the
future development of the Big Rapids community.
Recreational Areas
The previously discussed land use areas deal directly with
the day-to-day living activities of the population--where
they reside, purchase their goods, and earn their livelihood.
The fourth major area for study purposes concerns the areas
for recreation.

With advancing technology enabling the

individual to spend less time in the pursuit of means of
subsistence, more leisure time has been created.

As a

result, facilities must be provided where this leisure time
may be spent.

These facilities should be provided in close

proximity
to . people
who will be using them.
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As communities

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develop, open land areas become fewer in number and smaller
in size.

It is the obligation of the community to preserve

areas of adequate number and size so that there will be
sufficient recreational and developed open s~aces to
satisfy the needs of the community.

The RECREATION PLAN

FOR BIG RAPIDS--1967* has been recommended for the community
as other growth takes place.
The National Recreation and Park Association** recommends that
park-playgrounds, playfields and community parks be provided
in a community.

Space standards may be determined according

to the population of the community.

It has been suggested

by the National Recreation and Park Association that a
minimum of 10 acres of total recreation area for each 1,000

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*op cit page ii.
**Outdoor Recreation Space Standards--1965 National
Recreation and Park Association.
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persons be set aside.

Based on this ratio, the Big Rapids

Planning Area should contain approximately 150 acres of
developed recreation space at this time.
FUTURE POPULATION
The increase of population in Big Rapids from 1950 to 1960
and 1960 to 1970 has been 29% ·and 38% respectively.

From

1970 to 1976, the estimated increase has been 23% or at a
decennial rate of approximately 38%.

This indicates that

the population growth has leveled off to a steady rate of
increase.

Assuming that this rate of increase will remain

steady, the estimated population for 1980 would be 16,560
and for 1990 it would be 22,850.

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Based on available housing figures, approximately 2,500

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Ferris students were included in the 1960 census and

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population estimate of 14,770.

approximately 7,200 students were included in the 1976
Ferris' enrollment is

presently estimated at approximately 9,200; therefore,
approximately 82 % of the students are living.on campus.

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Ferris officials do not have immediate plans for new

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housing programs so that even with the proposed increase

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in enrollment, it is determined that the on-campus student

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population will not increase past 7,200 in 1980.

It is

feasible that between 1980 and 1990, new housing may be

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available in order to house additional students, thereby

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increasing the on-campus student population to approximately

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10,000.

Applying this estimate to the previous total City

estimate, the population of "permanent" Big Rapids residents ·
by 1990 would be approximately 12,850.
These estima t e s are compatible with population estimates
extra polated in previously cited planning studies; i.e.

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�BIG RAPIDS MASTER PLAN--1963 and RECREATION PLAN FOR THE
BIG RAPIDS PLANNING AREA--1967, therefore, it is recommended
that reference be made to those plans when necessary.
MAJOR STREET PLAN
The MAJOR STREET PLAN has been developed to provide for the
safe and efficient movement of two types of traffic-regional or through traffic and local traffic.

It is

necessary that these two types of traffic be separated to
preserve the residentially-oriented atmosphere of the
community.
Regional Traffic

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Vehicles which are moving from one area of the state to
another must be afforded safe, quick passage through
urbanized areas.

The plan proposes two types of thorough-

fares for this movement:

major arterials for non-stop

passage through the community and primary co+lectors for

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business traffic.
The major arterials or major thoroughfares designated for
Big Rapids are the existing Federal highway U. S. 131, and
the proposed freeway.

U. S. 131 is presently a major

highway for north-south traffic from Petoskey to the
Michigan-Indiana state line.

Preliminary studies by the

Michigan Department of State Highways indicate that there
will be a freeway paralleling

u.

S. 131 and at this time,

the location is proposed to be west of the City.

This

proposed freeway will alleviate the traffic load through
the City but regional traffic is still expected to be heavy
enough to warrant classifying U. S. 131 (State Street in
Big Rapids) as a major thoroughfare.

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�BIG RAPIDS MASTER PLAN--1963 and RECREATION PLAN FOR THE
BIG RAPIDS PLANNING AREA--1967, therefore, it is recommended
that reference be made to those plans when necessary.
MAJOR STREET PLAN
The MAJOR STREET PLAN has been developed to provide for the
safe and efficient movement of two types of traffic-regional or through traffic and local traffic.

It is

necessary that these two types of traffic be separated to
preserve the residentially-oriented atmosphere of the
community.
Regional Traffic
Vehicles which are moving from one area of the state to
another must be afforded safe, quick passage through
urbanized areas.

The plan proposes two types of thorough-

fares for this movement:

major arterials for non-stop

passage through the community and primary co+lectors for
business traffic.
The major arterials or major thoroughfares designated for

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Big Rapids are the existing Federal highway U. S. 131, and
the proposed freeway.

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U. S. 131 is presently a major

highway for north-south traffic from Petoskey to the
Michigan-Indiana state line.

Preliminary studies by the

Michigan Department of State Highways indicate that there
will be a freeway paralleling

u.

S. 131 and at this time,

the location is proposed to be west of the City.

This

proposed freeway will alleviate the traffic load through
the City but regiona l tra f fic is still expected to be heavy
enough to warrant classifying U. S. 131 (State Street in
Big Rapids) as a major thoroughfare.

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�State Highway M-20, which presently provides an east-west
thorough-fareinto and out of the City, is recommended to
be realigned so it will continue compatible with the
expanded Central Business District.

This highway presently

enters the C.B.D. via a truss-type bridge spanning the
Muskegon River.

It is proposed that the use of this

bridge be discontinued for vehicular traffic and a new
bridge be constructed.

Several alternative alignments

have been proposed for a new bridge site.

At this time,

the Big Rapids City Plan Board has no preferences among
these alternatives.
At the time of this study, possibilities were being explored
to retain the existing "Maple Street Bridge" as a pedestrian
~alkway providing access between the C.B.D. and the developed
areas east of the River.

A large portion of the residents

east of the River are elderly citizens so that it is
necessary that they be offered easy non-vehicular access
to the downtown area.
A primary collector in Big Rapids is proposed to act as a
business route around the developed areas.
alignment for the collector is:

The recommended

a new road on the west

City limits connecting 19 Mile Road to the north with Perry
Avenue, extended, to the south:
Local Traffic
Residential traffic within the developed areas is proposed
to be served by minor streets.

Alignments and locations of

the minor streets are intended to discourage fast-moving
cross-town traffic by eliminating continuous through
streets and developing a curvilinear street pattern in
residential areas.

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Intersections with major roads and

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railroads should be eliminated where possible.

New

residential streets are recommended to parallel these
major roads and railroads so that residences will not
front on or have access to the heavy trafficways.

Except

in cases where a new street alignment has been planned to
reduce the number of intersections and where streets have
been planned in previously undeveloped areas, existing
alignments will be followed iri the street plan.

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The PROPOSED FUTURE LAND USE map shows the recommended
street plan as it relates to the future land use patterns
and locations.

The accompanying illustrations, MAJOR

STREET PLAN and STREET CROSS-SECTION STANDARDS, show
recommended changes in street alignments and recommended
street surface widths respectively.
The schedule for updating the _existing street system in
Big Rapids to conform with the street plan will depend
primarily on the City's ability for funding.

Recommended

street closures or vacations can be accompli~hed
immediately with little cost for presently unneeded or
undeveloped streets.

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One of the points of implementation of the Goals for Big
Rapids was to consider a north-south pair of streets to
relieve the congestion on State Street within the
developed portion of the City.

As was previously discussed,

the proposed U. S. 131 Free~ay west of the City is
presently in the _planning stages.

This Freeway will be the

major traf£ic carrier for north-south through traffic and
will by-pass Big Rapids approximately one mile to the west.
Access from the Freeway will be via M-20 at the south and
19 Mile Road at the north.

It is anticipated that with

the building of the Freeway, new development will begin
between the Freeway and the City and then into the west
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�portion of the City.

The primary collector previously

mentioned would bisect this development along the west
City limits and connect the business · loop access routes.
This collector would also serve to alleviate local northsouth traffic on State Street by affording an easier,
less congested route between residential areas on the
west side of the City and one of the ·principal traffic
generators, Ferris State College.

The recommendation

of this report is to first consider this collector and
then, in the future if needed, to develop a one-way
pair in the City employing State Street for northbound

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traffic and the combination of Rose Street-Division
Street for southbound traffic.

Primary factors to be

considered in using the Rose-Division routing are the
necessity of widening and resurfacing and the
bridging over at Mitchell Creek to connect the two

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streets, both of which could result in high expenditures
and disruption of traffic flow.
COMMUNITY FACILITIES

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Schools
In most communities, the public _school system is the center
of local cultural, social and recreational activities as
well as being used for the education of children.
Following are recognized principles and standards which
have been developed through past experience in planning and
which reflect standards of the Michigan Department of
Education.

These principles and standards are used as a

· ba~is in determining the future requirements of the school
system by relating them to existing factors and preliminary
forecasts of population.

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�Principles and Standards
--Type and size of school facilities should be related
to present and future residential areas and school
age population.

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--Primary man-made and natural features, such as heavily
traveled thoroughfares, railroads, bodies of water
and large terrain changes should be considered in the
determination of school locations.
--Schools should be conveniently and safely accessible.
--Where possible, all schools should be located in the
interior of the concentration of residential development,
preferably within 1/4 to 1 mile of the majority of homes.
--Minimum school site sizes should be:

elementary school -

five acres plus one acre per 100 pupils;
school - twenty acres;

junior high

senior high school - forty acres.

--School athletic fields and play areas should be
compatible with city recreation areas to minimize
duplication of facilities.
--School plants should be carefully site planned so as
to result in a desirable amount of the site in open
use which, in conjunction with _recreation facilities,
could result in a more adequate recreation system for
the community.

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Existing School System*
The Big Rapids school system, which is approximately ninety
years old, was first accredited by the University of
Michigan in 1884.

the North Centra l Association .of Secondary Schools and
Colleges and by the University of Michigan.

The present

location of schools is shown on the EXISTING LAND USE MAP.
In terms of planning, a survey and evaluation of the Big
Rapids Public School system reveals:
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The present high school is accredited by

The Big Rapids Public School District covers
approximately 105 square miles in portions
of two counties, Mecosta and Newaygo.
Administrative offices for the system are

on Maple Street in Big Rapids.
2.

Communities served by the school district are
the City of Big Rapids and surrounding

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Townships.

3.

elementary schools, a public junior high
school, a public senior high school, two
parochial schools and a vocational education
program.

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The school district is served by four public

4.

In the past five years, 1970-1975, the school
age census, 5-19 years has increased from
2,342 to 2,550.

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*Source:

Office of the Superintendent

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�5.

Existing enrollments in the schools are as
follow:

School

Enrollment

Site Acres

High School

910

850

11.8

Intermediate School

500

450

3.0

Brookside Elem.

222

175

7.0

Riverview Elem.

193

175

4.4

Hillcrest Elem.

188

175

6.6

Eastwood Elem.

175

175

4.3

Kinderga~ten at H.

s.

Special Education

180

at High School

182

TOTAL

6.

Rated
Capacity

2,550

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All schools have appropriate playground or athletic

facilities at the school sites.
7.

All school facilities are exceeding capacity
enrollment;

however, additions are being made

to the elementary schools for an additional 75
students each.
8.

Existing public sites in the City are well located
in terms of accessibility, room for expansion and
compatibility to adjacent land uses.

The sites,

however, are presently too small according to
recognized standards.
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9.

The Big Rapids elementary schools, built in
1955 and the Big Rapids Senior High School,
built in 1965 are all considered in good
condition and are in good locations.

The Big

Rapids Intermediate School, built in 1924, is
classified as being in fair condition and is
on a site which is too small by site standards.
Parks and Recreation Areas

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In recent years, due to advancements in industrial
technology, improved transportation systems and general
automation to aid in daily activities, people everywhere
have more leisure time to devote to recreation.
become necessary to·develop adequate recreational
facilities to satisfy the needs of local residents as
well as tourists from crowded urbanized areas.
~ig Ra~fds is in the position of having quantities of
relatively inexpensive land in a recognized tourist region
of the State which can be developed for recr·eational use.
This plan proposes a park system which may enable the City
to make use of undeveloped land areas and possibly aid in
the overall economy of the community.
Recreation Principles
The development of a recreation plan relies on established
principles which have been adopted from standards of the
National Recreation Association.

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Since these standards

are general in nature, they have been modified to apply
to the City of Big Rapids.

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Among these standards are:
--A balanced park system should be provided to
serve recreational needs of the local
residents.
--Park and recreational facilities should be
developed to accommodate tourists.
--Active, _passive, indoor and outdoor facilities
should be provided.

Where possible, these

facilities should be provided in conjunction
with schools.
--Recreation areas should be conveniently and
safely located.

They should be accessible,

well-designed, properly landscaped and
maintained.
--Recreation areas for use primarily by lo~al
residents should be provided· within residential
developments with proper buffers to shield
adjacent residential uses from active recreation
facilities on the site.
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--Recreation areas for transient use should be
located and designed to be easily accessible

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to major thoroughfares and trunklines and to
the retail business district.

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--The following types of parks or recreation areas
should be included in the overall plan:

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�rPark-Playground:

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A small (three acre) park for

use by residents of the community.

This facility

is usually developed adjacent to an elementary

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of elementary school age and also for occasional

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Playfield:

school and provides facilities for use by children
recreation by adults.

for use by teenagers and adults.

conjunction with a senior high school.

The

recommended size is twelve to twenty acres.

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Community Park:

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This area is developed as a

center for civic activities.

It should be

located near the center of the population

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concentration and provide facilities for all
age groups such as playground equipment, picnic

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tables, passive recreation areas and facilities
for civic functions.

This area should contain

approximately two acres per thousand population.
Community-Wide Recreation:

All totalled, ten

acres of recreation land should be provided for

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every 1,000 persons.

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This area should

contain sports fields and is usually developed in

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An active recreation area intended

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This total includes the

recreation areas developed for the specific use
of the residents of the community.

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Tourist Recreation Areas:

These areas developed

either with community funds or private funds
depend upon the need which can be developed by
encouraging tourism.

They include camping grounds,

swimming, fishing, and other sports areas, scenic
areas, areas of historic interest or in general,

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facilities which may be used by a visitor to
the community.
Existing Recreation Facilities
In addition to the playground-playfields associated with
the schools, there is a total of 160 acres of designated
parks in the City of Big Rapids.

These parks, ranging

from a one-half acre neighborhood park to a 38-acre

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generally along the Muskegon River and Mitchell Creek.

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These park areas provide passive landscaped areas and also

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community park, are located throughout the City, but

active recreational areas such as athletic fields.

newly completed swimming pool facility at Mitchell Creek
Park has a capacity for approximately 800 persons with
parking for 60-70 automobiles.

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The building which houses

the bath house also doubles as a community room during

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the off-season.
Adequacy of Recreation Facilities
Based on national recreation standards*, Big Rapids'
present population of approximately 14,770 should have
a total of 150 acres of recreation land for all types
of facilities from a park-playground to a community
park.

To determine a proper recreation plan for the

community, existing facilities must be measured, both
quantitatively and qualitatively.

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*op cit, Page 33.

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Quantitatively, the parks in the City plus portions of
the school sites designated for recreation, total
approx imately 160 acres.

This is an estimate that

includes the total school property which is used for
recreation purposes.

A large portion of the designated

park space is undeveloped.

Mitchell Creek Park and

Hemlock Park have a large portion devoted to and developed
for recreational purposes.

It is, therefore, apparent

that the City has sufficient total recreational acreage
according to standards.

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Qualitatively, Mitchell Creek Park and Hemlock Park are
the best developed of all park areas in the City, and as
a result, the most used.

Other park areas, with the

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exception of the parks along the Muskegon River and the

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Mitchell Creek Roadside Park on State Street, are not

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large enough to satisfy standards.

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Locations of e x isting park areas for the most part are

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good.

The designation of areas that may be otherwise
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unusable along the River and Mitchell Creek for parks,
indicates that the City is in the process of developing
a completely adequate park system.

Refer to the

RECREATION PLAN FOR BIG RAPIDS--1967 . . (Page 33)

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Recommendations
1.

Small (approximately three acres) areas
should be acquired in various locations
of the City to be developed as neighborhood
playgrounds.

These areas should be located

so as to be able to serve the majority of

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youngst e rs throughout the residential areas.

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The playgrounds should be equipped with

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interesting playground equipment and

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should be maintained on a regular basis.
2.

Existing facilities should be equipped
with standard equipment:

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screens, goal-

posts, basketball backboards, etc. and
maintained on a regular basis.

If it is

not feasible to improve existing facilities,

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additional acreage should be acquired and
equipped to meet recreational standards.

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3.

Additional land should be acquired along
the Muskegon River and Mitchell Creek to

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be developed as community parks.

These

parks should be diversified and developed
for both active and passive recreation.

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should use approximately 150 acres pf land
at this time and plans -should be made for

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the eventual recreational space to be

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Total developed recreation areas in the City

approximately 230 acres by 1990.
5.

A signing system should be developed to help
the public identify parks .

Plan for Recreation Areas
The PLAN FOR RECREATION AREAS is based on the planning
principles and standards listed earlier in this report,
the preliminary population projections for the community,
the preliminary sketch plan presented to the Plan Board,

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the MAJOR STREET PLAN and the BIG Rl\PIDS RECREATION
PLAN.
Parks and Recreation
According to accepted standards, approximately onethird of the existing and proposed school sites should be
designated and developed for recreational use.

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All property owned by the City fronting on the Muskegon
River is proposed to be developed ~s a community park.
Portions of these areas should be equipped with playground

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equipment, picnic tables, restroom facilities, a park

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along the River should also be encouraged to improve and

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shelter and adequate parking.

Private owners of properties

maintain any lands fronting on the water.
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The MAJOR STREET

PLAN recommends that a park drive serve this area.
Other neighborhood parks as shown on the FUTURE LAND USE PLAN

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should be developed as soon as suitable land areas can be
acquired.
Public Administrative Facilities
Existing Facilities
The principal administrative officesin Big Rapids are located
in the City Hall Building at the southeast corner of Michigan
Avenue and Pine Streets.

This building houses the offices of

the City administrative staff and the City Commission chambers.
Also in the building are the City Police Department and the
City Fire Department.

The building, which is approximately

55 years old, has been renovated and remodeled over its time
of existence to accommodate the needs of the City as it has
grown .

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Although it is recognized that newer and larger facilities
will be requir e d for the City Hall, this report will not
cover specific recommendutions.

Unlike other facilities

that have been discussed in this report, there are no
general standards pertaining to space requirements or
location of administrative areas.

The particular space

requirements in any given office are dependent upon the
needs or desires of the director or head of that department.
Relationships of one office to another also depend on the
coordinating functions as assigned in a particular city.
In its present location, the City Hall is within the area
of the present and the proposed Central Business District
(C.B.D.).

Although it offers convenience to persons who

may wish to shop and also do City business, it is using
land space which would be well suited to a commercial
activity.

One of the problems in nearly all C.B.D.'s is

the lack of separate off-street parking near the stores.
By necessity, employees at City Hall utilize the existing
parking lots during shopping hours thereby decreasing
the available and potential customer parking~
The Big Rapids City Police Department presently has 19
employees, 13 of whom are fully-sworn officers.

All

facilities for the Police Department are in the City Hall
Building.

The . four patrol cars are kept behind the

building in the parking lot.

Although it is not

anticipated that the department will expand by more than
about five persons in the nex t ten years, plans should be
m9 de to provide for a larger, better-located facility.
Vehicles in an emergency situation generally have to
travel within the C.B.D. area when moving from the
station.

-49-

�,r

,\l

I[

rr
-;

-.
The Fire Department located next to the Police Department
presently has ten fulltime and fifteen volunteer firemen.
The department presently covers an area of approximately
144 square miles, including the City and four surrounding
townships, plus having responsibility for campus buildings
at Ferris.

There are six vehicles operated by the Fire

Department, but a need is anticipated for more new or
replacement vehicles, including a high platform aerial
truck and a rescue vehicle.

Optimum conditions would be

for all vehicles to be located within buildings so with

i'
1l
,,

I!
l
IL
!L
Il -

an expansion program a new space f~r this facility is
desired.

As with the other emergency vehicles, the fire

trucks are located close to . the high value C.B.D.

during runs to other parts of the jurisdictional area the
trucks must traverse the shopping area.
It is anticipated that as the City grows, new departments
will be developed to take care of growing demands of the
City.

As new departments are generated, additional

space must be allocated.

As this is a changing situation,

the viable solution is for the City, in the near future,
to conduct a feasibility study to determine what the longrange administrative and space needs will be for the City.

1·

,L
t

L
L
l-l

However,

·-50-

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                    <text>Grand Valley State University
Veterans’ History Project
Norris Einertson
Cold War (Pre-Vietnam); Vietnam War; Cold War (Post-Vietnam)
28 minutes 3 seconds
*Note: Times in the outline correspond with the timecode on the interview
(01:12:13) Early Life
-Born on August 6, 1930, near Westbrook, Minnesota
-Lived in Minnesota for three years during seminary
-Spent 24 years on the family farm before going to college
-Ultimately returned to Minnesota after 29 years of active duty in the Army
-Helped his father on the farm because his father wasn‟t ready to retire
-Felt the call to the ministry after graduating from high school
-Waited six years before going to college
-Attended Luther Seminary in St. Paul, Minnesota
-Part of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America
(01:14:22) Serving with the 1st Infantry Division
-First assignment was with the 1st Infantry Division based out of Fort Riley, Kansas
-Served with division artillery for 20 months
-Transferred to the 2nd Battalion of the 16th Infantry battle group
-Sent to West Germany for seven months
-Stationed at Wildflecken, about ten miles from the East German border
-Watching the East German and Russian movements
-Returned to Fort Riley and he was assigned to support command
-Served with the 1st Infantry again in Germany as the division chaplain from 1976-1978
(01:16:08) Tour in Vietnam
-Served in the Mekong River Delta with the 34th Engineer Group
-Had two combat engineer battalions and three construction battalions
-Operated in all of IV Corps (southernmost area of South Vietnam)
-Viet Cong were the primary belligerents in the region
-Worked with the 9th Infantry Division in My Tho
-34th Engineer Group was based out of Can Tho
-Stayed with the same unit for his entire tour
-Didn‟t see a lot of combat
-Had some alerts at night
-Grabbed his flak jacket and his helmet and went to the closest bunker
(01:17:45) Chaplain’s Advanced Course &amp; Stationed at Fort Ord
-Went to the Chaplain‟s Advanced Course after his tour in Vietnam
-Sent to Fort Ord, California, after completing the Chaplain‟s Advanced Course
-His first assignment was to help deal with riots happening on base

�-That assignment lasted seven months
-Worked at the personnel control facility (akin to a jail)
-Had 1,000 men on record as being held in the facility
-Did body counts to account for the men at the facility
-Lucky to account for 600 men, the rest were AWOL
st
-Transferred to the 1 Combat Training Brigade after the personnel control facility
(00:19:51) Chaplain’s School
-Sent to the Chaplain‟s School as part of the staff and faculty
-Sent as a writer and worked as the chief of reserve components
(01:21:11) Stationed at Fort Gordon
-Sent to Fort Gordon, Georgia
-Stationed there for four years
-Started as the deputy post chaplain
-Promoted to colonel and became the post chaplain
(01:21:38) Stationed in Washington D.C.
-During his time at Fort Gordon, the Army chief of chaplains met with Norris
-Wanted him to come work at the office in Washington D.C.
-Norris declined, then 15 months later the chief of chaplains asked again
-Norris agreed and relocated to Washington D.C.
-Worked as the executive officer in the chief‟s office in Washington D.C.
-It was a good job
-Saw how the chaplaincy worked from a command level
(01:22:44) Chief of Chaplains
-Promoted to brigadier general on December 1, 1985
-Promoted to major general and became chief of chaplains on July 1, 1986
-Worked closely with other parts of the Army staff
-Defending personnel resources from spending cuts
-Grew the chaplaincy by 100 chaplains over the course of his four years as chief
-Always striving to keep the Chaplain Corps happy
-Enjoyed his time as chief of chaplains
(01:26:24) Life after Service
-After he left the Army he became a pastor
-It felt strange to do assignments that he didn‟t feel met his strengths
-In the Army, someone better suited to the task could have done it
-As a pastor, he was on his own
(01:28:45) Transitions in the Army
-During his time as the chief of chaplains the Army was going through a transitional period
-Early retirements
-Change in policies
-Rebuilding the Army‟s morale after the Vietnam War
-He worked to restore the proper attitude toward the military within the military
-Saw firsthand the lack of morale and discipline in Germany in the „70s
-Army had started to recover from Vietnam in the late „70s, but still had work to do

�(01:30:45) Drugs &amp; Race Relations
-Noticed drugs were becoming a problem in the late 1960s and early 1970s
-Dealt with soldiers that had drug problems
-Replaced those soldiers with older, married men, and the drug problem disappeared
-Replaced those older soldiers with young soldiers, and the drugs returned
-Race relations were also tense during the 1960s and 1970s
-The chaplains tried to maintain fairness
-Race relations improved after Vietnam and the civil unrest of that time
-First African-American chief of chaplains succeeded Norris
-Chaplains were key in the Army‟s “Garden Plot”
-Plan to restore order in cities after significant civil disorder
-Reaction to the race riots in Watts, Newark, and Detroit
-Army looked to the chaplaincy during times of crisis
-Helping with the drug problem, race relations, and family counselling
-Drugs were a problem at Fort Ord and he worked with the medical staff to deal with it
(01:35:00) Changes in Chaplain Practices
-Chaplaincy worked on making religious accommodations for soldiers of specific beliefs
-For example, creating specialized rations for certain religious groups
-Jewish, Muslim, and Seventh-day Adventist soldiers
-These changes in the Army prompted changes in other branches of the military
(01:38:05) Fondest Memory
-He considers his fondest memory to be when he decided to become a pastor
-Wanted to serve as a chaplain, and became one in 1961
-Chance to connect with veterans in the church
-Better way to help men
&lt;Tape ends before the interview is complete&gt;

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Boring, Frank</text>
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                    <text>Grand Valley State University
Veterans History ProjectWorld War II
Albert Eitel
(57:03)
Background Information (00:10)
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Born in Scottsdale, Nebraska, on December 25th 1926. (00:14)
At the age of 4 in 1928 he and his parents moved to Flint, Michigan. The parents moved to work
for General Motors. (00:30)
In 1944 his father retired. He did not lose his job during the Depression. (1:00)
He had 5 other siblings. (1:30)
He attended high school but did not graduate because he enlisted at the age of 17 prior to his
graduation. (1:45)
Albert was familiar with the conflicts in Europe but he did not have any idea of the conflicts
occurring in the Pacific. (2:12)
Albert heard of Pearl Harbor during church on a Sunday afternoon. (2:28)
Most young people Albert knew were very anxious to serve in the war. (3:35)
Albert enlisted in the Navy on May 2nd 1944 at age 17. (4:30)
He had an older brother in the Air Force. (5:12)
After enlisted the men were required to have a physical done in Detroit Michigan. (6:05)
Albert was sent to Great Lakes Naval Base for his basic training. (6:23)

Basic Training (6:30)
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Training entailed rigorous physical exercises. (6:50)
Discipline was highly emphasized. (7:25)
Most of the men Albert trained with were from the mid west area of the U.S. (7:55)
After completing his basic training Albert was sent to Camp Bradford, Virginia, where the men
practiced landings in LSTs. (8:16)
At this time (November 1944) Albert was also being trained on the twin 40mm guns. (9:25)
Albert was at Camp Bradford for several weeks. (9:49)
The men were allowed to leave the base while at Camp Bradford on a weekend pass. (10:19)
After his training at Camp Bradford, Albert was sent back to Great Lakes Naval Base in Illinois
for several weeks. At this time the men were training as a crew. (11:05)
He was sent by train to Southern Indiana to pick up the ship he would serve on, an LST. The ship
was than sailed down the Mississippi to New Orleans Louisiana. (11:19)

Voyage to the Pacific (11:30)
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At this time Albert was a Seaman First Class, Deck hand. (11:45)
It took approx 1 week to travel down the Mississippi River. When arriving in New Orleans the
men were given leave. (12:40)
The civilians in New Orleans treated the men very kindly. (13:00)
The first captain of Albert’s ship was only about 45 years old. His second captain however had
been in the navy for about 30 years and was much older. (13:50)

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When in the Gulf of Mexico the men did more practice on guns and running the ship. (14:35)
The ship traveled through the Panama Cannel. (15:08)
There were about 2-3 LSTs with Albert’s ship while crossing the Pacific. (16:11)
The travel across the pacific had bad weather. The LST was tossed around. Half the crew got
sick. (17:40)
LCTs (a small landing craft) were chained down on the deck of the LST. (18:40)
There was an initiation for the Pollywogs (new sailors) to Shell Backs (experienced sailor) after
crossing the equator. (19:45)

Service in the Pacific (21:30)
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The ship first stopped at the New Hebrides Islands in the South Pacific. (21:48)
Albert took a journal in spite of the fact that sailors were not supposed to keep one. He did this
by using the back of the log on the ship that was intended for recording when excess batteries
were last charged. (22:48)
He was given the job of assistant to the Storage Keeper. Albert was also given the title Store
Keeper Third Class in early 1945. (23:40)
He recalls that water and fuel were picked up at one location, tanks and men were picked up at
another island and then they were dropped at yet another island. (25:07)
Over all, the men were traveling to the Philippians. (26:05)
After some fights (such as that at Manila Bay) in the morning, sunken ships could be seen after
the battle. (27:23)
Manila had been heavily bombed when Albert arrived there. (27:58)
Albert did contact the civilians in the Philippines. These civilians were at time used to acquire
intelligence. (28:22)

Service after Surrender (29:59)
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Albert was in the small village of San Fernando in the Philippines when he heard of the end of
the war in August of 1945. (30:25)
They did not tell the men of the Atomic bomb, only the Japanese surrender. (30:58)
On September 20th 1945 the ship was in Okinawa. (31:57)
On September 24th 1945 the ship docked in Korea. Albert thought the weather was cold. (32:54)
There were still Japanese Soldiers in Korea. They were not unkind to the American Soldiers.
(33:50)
After the war ended the ship’s primarily task was to ferry soldiers back to their home country.
This included Japanese and Chinese soldiers. (34:30)
Albert talked with these soldiers. They did not wish to talk about their service but they were
very smart. (35:20)
The ship also carried captured Japanese civilians in China back to Japan. (37:38)
Albert met Chinese people, but because they did not know English, communicating was difficult.
(38:10)
Once while going ashore to get mail in French Indochina, Albert was required to take with him
an armed guard. (39:05)

Life in Service (40:10)

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He remembers the culture shock of seeing a society that had only huts to live in and did not
regularly wear shoes. (40:20)
For actives aboard ship most men played cards and occasionally watched a movie. After the war
was over the men had beer on board the ship. (41:38)
The food aboard ship was good. (42:20)
When the men were aloud off the ship, the men were typically aloud of at night and had to be
back on the ship by 12 AM at the latest. (43:40)
Albert received mail approx every 5-6 days if they were by a larger island. (45:40)
While scanning the horizon the men often spotted Japanese mines. These were hit and
destroyed from several miles away. (46:45)
Sighting of Japanese aircraft was frequent. (47:46)
While the ship was at sea near Okinawa there was a typhoon that lasted about 4 days. (49:23)

End of Service (49:54)
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The trip back to San Francisco, California, took about 40 days. (50:00)
Once arriving in California, the men were placed in a camp and given a few days leave. When he
came back he was placed on a train to Great Lakes Naval Base Illinois. (50:55)
Albert was discharged at Great Lakes Naval Base in approx 1946. (52:00)

Life after Service (52:05)
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He attended Baker Business College in Flint, Michigan, and received a business degree after 1
year. (52:15)
He began work as a truck driver. (52:40)
He owned a party store for 30 years. (53:40)
Albert’s service was a good educating experience. (54:50)
At times his service was frightening. (56:35)

�</text>
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                    <text>Grand Valley State University
Veterans' History Project
Bob Elliott
Vietnam War
Part 1 – 57 minutes 48 seconds
(00:00:55) Early Life
-Born in Hart, Michigan on November 22, 1948
-Lived in Hart until halfway through the third grade
-Moved to Muskegon, Michigan
-Lived in Muskegon until 1966
-Dropped out of high school when he was 17 years old
-Grandparents raised him
-Grandfather worked in manufacturing
-He worked in the summers
-Grew up lower middle class
(00:02:55) Vietnam War &amp; Enlisting in the Marines
-Knew Vietnam War was going on
-Read the newspapers and watched the news reports at night
-Wanted to serve his country despite the war
-Had a better chance of survival in the Marines than in the Army
-Didn't want to be on a ship on the water or a target at an air base
-Enlisted in March 1966 with a three month delay before starting basic training
-Took his physical and mental exams at Fort Wayne in Detroit
-A lot of men went directly from Fort Wayne to basic training
-Thorough physical
-Marine Corps wanted all of your medical records since childhood
-At that point he was still in high school
-One month after enlisting he left school and got a job
-Worked until he left
(00:08:10) Basic Training
-On July 21 or 22, 1966 he reported for basic training
-Flew from Detroit to Los Angeles where he changed flights then flew to San Diego
-Drill instructors greeted the men at San Diego and started barking orders
-Exciting and totally unexpected experience
-Boarded a bus and went to the Marine Corps Recruit Depot in San Diego
-A drill instructor ordered them off the bus and told them they belonged to the Corps
-Arrived there early in the morning
-Shaved head, handed over civilian belongings to be sent home, issued fatigues and boots
-Got an hour of sleep then got physically kicked out of bed
-First part of basic training consisted of physical training
-Getting physically conditioned
-Started every day with three to five miles of running
-After a run they had breakfast and followed breakfast with calisthenics
-Went on another run before lunch and followed lunch with more calisthenics
-After a couple weeks they started taking classes
-Taught the history of the Marines
-Received weapons training

�-Learned about the parts of a rifle, information on the rifle, and how to take it apart
-Taught protocol and the United States Code of Military Justice
-Learned that the only time you called a non-commissioned officer 'sir' was in basic training
-If you made a minor mistake you were usually punished with extra exercise
-At least once a day they marched past the jail to see prisoners breaking concrete as punishments
-Screamed at by guards worse than drill instructors yelled at recruits
-Minor infractions were obviously punished with less severity
-Remembers one recruit failing to pass a rifle inspection
-Recruit had to dig a grave for the rifle, bury it, exhume it, and clean it
-All leather had to be polished
-Everyone got it wrong at least once
-Sometimes drill instructor scuffed clean leather so you had to redo it
-At first he didn't understand the abuse, but eventually understood it
-Learned that it was about working as a unit and not as an individual
-Once he got through basic training he adjusted well to the Marines
-Had to do two extra weeks of basic training because he was assigned to Physical Conditioning Platoon
-He was overweight and needed extra help getting into shape
-Dietary restrictions and extra exercise
-Only a few men did not complete basic training
-Remembers one man died in training because he had a fever of 106o and refused to get help
-Only time a drill instructor talked to them like equals was after that
(00:22:03) Infantry Training
-Sent to Camp Pendleton north of San Diego
-Received two weeks of infantry training
-Had been assigned his Military Occupational Specialty (MOS) at the end of basic training
-Test scores from induction and a need for Marines doing that specific job were factors
-He wanted to go into explosive ordnance disposal (EOD), but was not given that MOS
-His MOS was 2531-Voiced Radio Communication
-Meant that he would receive shortened infantry training
-Trained with all weapons at Camp Pendleton
-Machine guns, bazookas, etc.
-Went on an infiltration course
-Crawling through mud and barbed wire under live fire
-Learned how to use hand grenades
-Marines assigned to the infantry stayed at Camp Pendleton for two weeks longer
(00:25:53) Radio Training
-Sent to another part of Camp Pendleton for his radio training
-That training lasted four weeks
-Taught how to use radios
-Learned the NATO Phonetic Alphabet (Alpha, Bravo, Charlie, Delta, etc.)
-Had to get a background check and security clearance to do radio work
-Only technical information he had to know was how to change a battery and operate a radio
-Learned how to properly talk on a radio
-Enunciate your words and keep the microphone away from your mouth
-Learned how to talk in secret code
-Used three different types of radio:
-PRC-25 (common radio for communication, man-portable)
-Mark 84 (vehicle mounted radio)
-PRC-45 (portable radio for ground-air communication)

�-Didn't learn a lot about communicating with different units or different branches
(00:30:57) Stationed at Hawaii
-Went home on leave after radio training
-Reported to staging barracks and waited for enough Marines to go to Hawaii
-Stationed at Marine Corps Air Station Kaneohe Bay on Oahua, Hawaii
-Assigned to the 1st Battalion of the 27th Marine Regiment of 5th Marine Division
-First assignment was with a radio platoon
-Learned more about communicating with other units
-How to send a situation report, call in supplies, and call in a Medevac helicopter
-After five months he was reassigned to a mortar platoon
-Learned about forward operating procedures
-Calling in mortars and artillery
-Extensive classes on calling in airstrikes and artillery strikes
-How to get jets in and out of a combat zone as quickly as possible
-Pilots needed to know where to go after dropping their bombs
-Spent a little over a year in Hawaii
-Days at Hawaii were 85o, sunny, and it was a great place to be assigned
-Got up at 6:30 a.m. and worked until 4:30 p.m.
-Sometimes went into the field for a week for field training
-Spent downtime by going to the beach and surfing
-It was a 40 minute drive to Honolulu
(00:36:35) Deployment to Vietnam
-Always knew he could be deployed to Vietnam
-Knew about Marines getting wounded or killed in Vietnam
-Unit served as a replacement unit
-Get trained in Hawaii then be sent individually to Vietnam
-Only a few men got sent to Vietnam while he trained in Hawaii
-Stayed in Hawaii until the end of January 1968
-Told they were going on a training cruise to Philippines, Japan, Taiwan, and Australia
-Boarded a ship in Pearl Harbor and saw crates of ammunition being loaded onto the ship
-Knew that they were being sent to Vietnam before they were told
-Crossed the International Date Line and were told they were being sent to Vietnam
-Weren't given a lot of information about what their role in Vietnam would be
(00:41:00) Arrival in Vietnam
-When they got to Vietnam they were told they were supporting the 1st Battalion in the 1st Marines
-Unit had fought at Hue during the Tet Offensive and the area needed support
-Landed south of Danang
-Originally supposed to dock in the harbor at Danang
-Plans changed and they went ashore in landing craft
-North Vietnamese sappers had sunk a ship and effectively blocked the harbor
-Didn't get any ammunition when they went ashore
-Nets were dropped over the side of the ship and they climbed down into landing craft
-When they got to shore they were picked up by trucks and taken to a base
-Spent the first couple weeks adjusting to the heat
-Did light exercises and stayed active to acclimate
(00:44:58) Early Operations in Vietnam
-Operated at a base ten miles south of Danang called Bong Song
-Not much enemy activity in the area, but there was still fighting in Hue
-Didn't have a lot of combat veterans in the unit

�-Fortunate enough to find a communication Marine that had been to Vietnam before
-Told not to trust any Vietnamese civilians and to just leave them alone
-Told to remember their training and use it
-First patrol lasted six or seven hours and they operated from morning to sunset
-A week later they went out to the field and stayed the night
-Set up a camp, established a perimeter, and had men stand watch
-The next morning they packed up and returned to base
-Didn't rush into combat and learned to look for booby traps and trails in the jungle
-Every other time they went out they ran into small groups of enemy soldiers
-On one patrol their point man tripped a landmine near a creek and the North Vietnamese opened fire
-He called in a Medevac and artillery to fight back against the Vietnamese
-Sporadic enemy contact
-Started operating at squad strength (~10 men) to platoon strength (~40 men)
-Depended on how long they would be in the field and the size of their area of operation
-Had a mortar section that was within range of their patrol and could support them if necessary
-Usually had three radio operators in the field
-When they got ambushed at the creek he was the only radioman with a working radio
-He called in situation report, mortars, Medevac, and artillery
-He worked with a forward observer who worked with the mortars
-Didn't stay at the base much
-When he did, he stood radio watch and took in messages coming in from the field
-Usually worked with a unit going out on patrols
-At the end of patrols they returned to base, cleaned up, resupplied, then returned to the field
(00:55:07) Operation Allen Brook
-On May 4, 1968 the Marines launched Operation Allen Brook
-Loaded onto trucks and went to Go Noi Island 25 kilometers south of Da Nang
-Mission: make contact with enemy and stop North Vietnamese from launching a major offensive
-Knew there was a high possibility of running into a large contingent of enemy troops
-Made contact with highly trained, highly skilled North Vietnamese regulars preparing an offensive
End of Part 1
Part 2 – 1 hour 7 minutes 17 seconds
(00:00:43) Operation Allen Brook
-Got into combat the first night of that operation
-Spent 45 days in the field
-Only five or six days/nights without enemy contact and that was because of the rain
-Moved during the day and set up camp at night
-Enemy tended to attack at night
-Sent out teams with strengths from four men to 25 men
-Scouting the enemy or engaging the enemy
-Forcing the enemy to move or fight
-Went on a few “Stingray” patrols
-Four man team going into the field and going to the high ground
-One sergeant, a machine gunner, a radioman, and a forward observer
-Look for enemy movement, report it, then call in artillery or an airstrike
-Alerted nearby units if the enemy was moving toward them
-Hard to tell the size of the enemy force

�-Heard enemy officers giving orders and could tell their direction
-Enemy waited until it was really quiet at night to mount an attack
-Stealthy soldiers
-Could get right up to the perimeter before launching their attack
-Larger groups of enemy troops had rockets and mortars
-Mimicked American tactics
-Had to call in artillery and an airstrike on their position twice
-Jet dropped napalm 100 yards from their position
-Safe distance for napalm is 1,000 yards
-Met up with other units after clearing an area then split up again
-Assigned to different platoons and different companies within the battalion depending on need
-Stayed with Alpha Company during Operation Allen Brook
-Alpha Company suffered 20-25% casualties, but lighter than Delta Company
-1st Battalion was never up to strength after Operation Allen Brook
-Needed replacements, but never received them
-Hard to tell how much damage they inflicted on the North Vietnamese
-Alpha Company took four prisoners of war
-Hard to find enemy bodies
-North Vietnamese were good at collecting their dead and wounded
-Discovered an underground hospital that covered four acres
-Found a table that still had playing cards on it
-Found operating tables with fresh blood
-Sent down smaller Marines to investigate the tunnels
-Engaged enemy forces during the day
-Foliage limited their line of sight
-Six foot tall elephant grass and overgrown rice fields
-Established a field of fire and tried to force the enemy to retreat
-Noted trails on maps and never went down the same trail twice
-If you went down the same trail twice you set yourself up for ambushes or booby traps
-Civilians were told to leave the area or they would be considered enemy sympathizers
-Only had to search and destroy one village in the Go Noi Island area
-Most civilians had evacuated the area before Operation Allen Brook
-Objective was to clear out the enemy and allow the civilians to return
(00:15:27) Establishing Camp Eagle
-Returned to base after Operation Allen Brook
-Got resupplied and rested
-Went to a hill between Hue and Phu Bai
-Secured an area between Highway 1 and the ocean
-Objective was to secure the area so the 101st Airborne Division could establish Camp Eagle
-Found new and old trails
-Set up booby traps
-Only got shot at once during that operation
-When the Marines left the North Vietnamese overran the area
-North Vietnamese had waited until the 101st Airborne Division moved in
-Believes they had been waiting for the right moment to launch their offensive
-Last major operation for the 27th Marine Regiment
-Conducted in July 1968
(00:18:20) End of First Tour &amp; Coming Home
-Not much activity in August 1968

�-Didn't get a leave before being deployed to Vietnam
-Two months in Hawaii equaled one month in Vietnam
-Went on a few patrols in early August
-Told he could turn in his gear and relax until he went home
-Left Vietnam in early September 1968
-Flew from Da Nang to Okinawa and got his personal effects back
-Dress uniform and he had his records updated
-Stayed in Okinawa for four days
-Flew on a chartered civilian airliner to Los Angeles
-Got off the plane and all of the men were happy to be home
-Greeted by protestors throwing stuff at them and spitting on them
-Mad and disappointed
-Aware of antiwar sentiments, but didn't expect it to be directed at troops
-Thought race riots were going to be more of a problem than protestors
-Came home on leave and in uniform
-Young woman was scared of him because he was a Marine
-She believed Marines had committed atrocities
-He politely explained to her that that simply wasn't the case
-Had 20 days of leave
(00:26:56) Redeployment to Vietnam
-Reported to Camp Lejeune, North Carolina
-There was talk about the Marines going on a training cruise in the Mediterranean Sea
-Didn't want to be back on a troopship again
-Could volunteer for another tour in Vietnam to avoid going on the cruise, so he did
-Spent the rest of his time at Camp Lejeune waiting to return to Vietnam
-Went on leave then reported to a Marine company in California
-Only one of four combat veterans in that unit
-Spent a month at Camp Pendleton
-A few of the men asked about Vietnam, but most were too scared to ask questions
-Helped on the Escape and Evasion Course at Camp Pendleton
-Played the part of a Viet Cong aggressor
-Marines had to get across the course without getting “captured”
-Flew to Vietnam from California
(00:30:25) Stationed at Quang Tri
-Assigned to Headquarters Company of 3rd Marine Division
-Got to Vietnam in February 1969
-Quang Tri was the last major city before reaching the DMZ
-Marines started using seismic intrusion devices
-Placed the gadgets 100 feet apart on a trail then go back about 1,000 yards
-Established the coordinates and gave the coordinates to artillery crews
-Transmitters detected troop movement
-Worked with C Battery at Camp Charlie
-Setting up the seismic devices was not as dangerous as he thought it would be
-Knew what to look for and avoid in the way of booby traps
-Avoided enemy troop movement
-Didn't have enough men or firepower to engage in combat
-Only went out for three or four hours
-Seismic intrusion devices were given to the Marines from the Army
-Worked very well

�-Only two times when North Vietnamese forces managed to get out of the area before artillery
(00:36:33) Stationed at Con Thien
-Had ground radar jeeps
-Detected North Vietnamese artillery positions at the DMZ and directed fire on those positions
-Counted 120 explosions out of 100 shells fired on one occasion
-Secondary explosions from munitions exploding
-Sent over a recon plane to survey the damage
-Found destroyed Soviet artillery pieces
-Operated out of the Marine base at Con Thien
-Situated on a hill, a natural observation point
-There were a few Montagnard hill people near Con Thien
-Marines gave them food when they came out of the hills
-Only civilian presence in the area
-North Vietnamese stayed away from the area
-Second tour lasted six months
(00:40:38) Stationed Near Laos
-Left Con Thien and went to a mountain base near Laos
-Simple base with radar bunkers and guard bunkers
-Stood watch
-Near the end of his second tour
-Nothing happened at that base
-Noticed movement once and called in air strikes
(00:42:38) Morale, Racial Tension and Drugs
-Morale was good on both tours
-Always worked as a team
-Wanted everyone to get home alive and everyone shared that mentality
-If you looked out for everyone, they looked out for you
-There was some racial tension, but only if you made it
-He had no problem with non-white Marines
-Everyone was in the same situation regardless of race
-Racial tension would cause conflict in the field which would threaten everyone's survival
-The unit on his second tour was predominantly white
-A couple men heavily used drugs
-He dabbled with marijuana as a way to relieve stress
-Couldn't buy hard liquor in the Marines
-Easier to walk down the street and buy a pack of 10 joints for $10 from a Vietnamese civilian
-Only smoked or drank when it was safe at a base
-No Marines used drugs when they went on patrols
-Allowed to have beer on a base, but no hard liquor
-Got a substantial beer ration after Operation Allen Brook
(00:50:20) Service with South Vietnamese Troops
-Worked with South Vietnamese troops on two occasions
-The soldiers he worked with were good soldiers
-Held their own and were good men
-Showed the Marines the area so they didn't get lost
-Showed Marines how to look for trails and other things
-Worked with them early in his first tour
-Had some interpreters at Headquarters Company on his second tour

�(00:52:07) Contact with Civilians
-After Operational Allen Brooke and during Camp Eagle they crossed a village near Highway 1
-Brought food, candy, and a corpsman with extra medical supplies
-Always made sure they had extra supplies to give to the civilians
-Some civilians were glad that Americans were
-Understood the American mission and wanted them there
-Some of the civilians were bitter and wanted the United States to leave Vietnam
(00:54:46) End of Second Tour, End of Service, &amp; Coming Home
-At the end of his second tour his enlistment was done
-Marines tried to get him to reenlist
-Two Army generals had come to Con Thien for inspection
-Gave Bob a letter of recommendation for promotion
-Tried to barter with his commanding officer to get the promotion if he extended his tour
-CO told him he couldn't give him the promotion
-Bob wanted a promotion to sergeant, but could only get promoted to lance corporal
-Decided that it was time to get out of the Marines
-Flew from Vietnam to Okinawa, and from Okinawa to Marine Corp Air Station El Toro, California
-Stayed at Marine Corps Air Station El Toro for out-processing
-Bought civilian clothes
-Flew back to Michigan in civilian clothes
-Noticed a diminished sense of animosity from civilians
-Told protestors to stop harassing troops, but didn't get combative
(00:59:25) Life after the War
-Planned on drawing unemployment and relaxing for a while
-Home for a week and got a job
-Took a while to get his initiative back
-Took a few night classes at his old high school to get his diploma
-Used the GI Bill to attend Muskegon Community College
-Got his associate's degree
-Started a family
-Studied for two years at Grand Valley State College (now University)
-Got his journeyman's card as a carpenter
-Moved to Holland, Michigan and got a job with an automotive supplier
-Worked his way up and became a process engineer
-Had trouble readjusting to civilian life
-Time at college helped him return to civilian life
-GVSC had counselors and other veterans to talk to
-There were a lot of veteran students at Grand Valley
-Non-confrontational atmosphere
-Noticed more antiwar sentiments and animosity in the workplace
-Got turned down for three good positions because he served in Vietnam and saw combat
(01:04:50) Reflections on Service
-Glad he served, but wouldn't do it again
-Made him a better person
-Matured quickly in the Marines
-Taught him self-reliance and how to take care of others
-There were a lot of lessons to learn being in the service if you accepted the lessons
(01:06:00) Miscellaneous Details
-Major objective of Operation Allen Brook was keeping the North Vietnamese out of Danang

�-On “Stingray” patrols they relied on line of sight observations
-Used binoculars and telescopes
-Viet Cong relied heavily on improvised explosives
-Basically, make a booby trap out of anything that will produce an explosion and shrapnel

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Boring, Frank</text>
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                <text>Elliott, Robert (Interview outline and video), 2015</text>
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                <text>Bob Elliott was born in Hart, Michigan on November 22, 1948. He enlisted in the Marines in March 1966 and began basic training in late July 1966. He received his basic training in San Diego and Infantry Training at Camp Pendleton, California. He remained at Camp Pendleton for Radio Training then was stationed at Marine Corps Air Station Kaneohe Bay on Oahua, Hawaii with the 1st Battalion of the 27th Marine Regiment of the 5th Marine Division. In late January 1968 the unit sailed to Vietnam and went ashore near Danang. They operated out of a base near Bong Song and conducted patrols in the area. He participated in Operation Allen Brook near Go Noi Island and helped clear an area for the establishment of Camp Eagle. In September 1968 he returned to the United States and was briefly stationed at Camp Lejeune, North Carolina. He voluntarily redeployed to Vietnam and arrived there in February 1969. He was assigned to the Headquarters Company of the 3rd Marine Division and helped with artillery operations around Quang Tri and Con Thien. At the end of his second tour he was stationed at a base near Laos. He returned to the United States at the end of that summer and was discharged from the Marines at Marine Corps Air Station El Toro, California. </text>
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                <text>Elliot, Robert</text>
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              <elementText elementTextId="755014">
                <text>Smither, James (Interviewer)</text>
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              <elementText elementTextId="755015">
                <text> WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.)</text>
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              <elementText elementTextId="755016">
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                <text>United States--History, Military</text>
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                <text>Veterans</text>
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                <text>Video recordings</text>
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                <text>Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American</text>
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                <text>United States. Marine Corps</text>
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              <elementText elementTextId="755023">
                <text>&lt;a href="http://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455"&gt;Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)&lt;/a&gt;</text>
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                <text>Moving Image</text>
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                <text>Text</text>
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            <name>Rights</name>
            <description>Information about rights held in and over the resource</description>
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              <elementText elementTextId="755028">
                <text>&lt;a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en"&gt;In Copyright&lt;/a&gt;</text>
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              <elementText elementTextId="755029">
                <text>Veterans History Project (U.S.)</text>
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              <elementText elementTextId="755031">
                <text>2015-05-26</text>
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            <name>Publisher</name>
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              <elementText elementTextId="1032014">
                <text>Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives</text>
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                    <text>Nov 3rd 1861
Dear Sisters
I once more take the opportunity to write you a few lines to inform how we are getting
along. Ansel is still gaining &amp; yesterday was dressed for the first time. Hee is vary poor
&amp; weak but is gaining strength quite fast &amp; probably will soon get around again but will
not be able to do any thing in some time yet. Hee thinks that he cannot come Home this
fall as he has been sick now some time &amp; will loose two months wages &amp; then it would
cost him about one hundred dollars to come as he wants to this season of the year as the
fair [fare] is vary high

�So you will have to wate a little while longer before you see him.
Hee is going to make Ezekiel a visit as soon as he gitts able to travile &amp; I think of young
the same time There is no news to write that I think of as we have got no letters from any
one since my last to you.
Do you know any thing about Ansel where he is or what he is at if you do tell me in your
next letter. Does Emily hear any thing from Malvina lately if you know pleas write in
your next &amp; all the rest of the news that you think of. How glad I am that I have got a
little sis to write to &amp; to receive a letter from &amp; you need not worry about paying for the
little favors that we send you as we

�consider them more than paid already. And at any time you want more let me know &amp;
you shall have it. Hoping to hear from you soon &amp; that you are still enjoying good health
I remain your affectionate
Brother
David M. Elliott
Direct to New Lisbon
Jueneau Co
Wis

�</text>
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                  <text>&lt;a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/472"&gt;Civil War and Slavery Collection (RHC-45)&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/470"&gt;John Bennitt Diaries and Correspondence (RHC-43)&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/471"&gt;Nathan Sargent Papers (RHC-44)&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/478"&gt;Theodore Peticolas Diary (RHC-51)&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/476"&gt;Civil War Patriotic Envelopes Collection (RHC-51)&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/479"&gt;Whitely Read Diary (RHC-52)&lt;/a&gt;</text>
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                  <text>Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections &amp; University Archives</text>
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                  <text>1804-1897</text>
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                <text>RHC-45_CW1-2668</text>
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              <elementText elementTextId="167559">
                <text>Nancy Elliott from David M. Elliott</text>
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                <text>1861-11-03</text>
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                <text>Elliott, David M.</text>
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            <description>The topic of the resource</description>
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                <text>Correspondence</text>
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                <text>United States--History--Civil War, 1861-1865</text>
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                <text>Patriotic envelopes</text>
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                <text>La Crosse (Wis.)</text>
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                <text>Wisconsin</text>
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                <text>Schuyler County (N.Y.)</text>
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            <description>An account of the resource</description>
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              <elementText elementTextId="167568">
                <text>Letter from David M. Elliott to his sisters in New York, describing life in Wisconsin and asking for news from home. Sent with an envelope with impression of Abraham Lincoln and Hannibal Hamlin stamped on the front.</text>
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                    <text>ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW
GLORIA CORDES ELLIOTT
Women in Baseball
Born: Staten Island, New York, September 1931
Resides: Staten Island, New York
Interviewed by: James Smither PhD, GVSU Veterans History Project, August 6, 2010,
Detroit, MI at the All American Girls Professional Baseball League reunion.
Transcribed by: Joan Raymer, March 12, 2011
Interviewer: “Gloria can you begin by giving us some background on yourself? To
start with, where and when were you born?”
I was born on Staten Island, New York on September 1931
Interviewer: “And what did your family do for a living at that time?”
My father, he worked, as a carpenter in New York City and my mother was a homemaker
with eleven children, you know, it was about all she had time to do.
Interviewer: “Did your father have work during the thirties? Could he keep you
fed?”
Yes he did and he was very good at that. He had a good job and the money at that time
was nothing like today, but it was sufficient for that time period.
Interviewer: “How did you wind up getting started in sports?”
Well, I was one of eleven children, I have five sisters and five brothers and my three
younger brothers were very close to my age, so I spent a lot of time with them. My two
older brothers, they were professional baseball players and I use to watch them all the
time. One was a pitcher and he showed me how to throw different pitches. 14:03
Interviewer: “And did you get to play baseball with them?”
I got to play with my younger brothers and our friends in the area. You know, just pickup games—choose sides and find an empty field where you could play and that was

1

�about most of it. We didn’t have anything for girls in that time period. Girls were just
not allowed to play ball or be on boys teams and there were no sports for girls in the
schools.
Interviewer: “By the time you got to the high school level there were some girls
sports and opportunities that weren’t there before.”
Not at the school I went to, no, and I don’t think any of the schools on Staten Island had
girls sports just yet.
Interviewer: “What about youth groups or things like that?”
Well, like I said, the boys, they belonged to the youth groups, the PAL, the CYL, and
they tried to get me on their team because I was their pitcher. The same thing there, no
girls were allowed. 15:02
Interviewer: “Ok, could you play other sports with some of these groups, basketball
or softball?”
Yes, they had basketball for the girls at the time at that was at the PAL center and I just
got to meet these girls through my playing softball in the street. Someone that was
managing the girls’ softball team asked me if I was interested in playing, so I said, “yes”,
and that’s how I met some of my friends from the other part of Staten Island. Of course,
we didn’t have a car and at that point we didn’t even really have bicycles, but you didn’t
really get to see too many people out of your own area.
Interviewer: “So, if you were going to go play softball with these people, how would
you get to the games?”
I did a lot of walking and if it was pretty far you could get a bus for five cants at the time,
so that wasn’t too bad. 15:56

2

�Interviewer: “Now, as you were getting into your teenage years, you’re playing in
different ways, did you know anything about the Girls All American Baseball
League?”
No, I had no idea of this baseball league, not until 1949. There were two touring teams
that were touring the east coast and they came to Staten Island and they played a game at
one of our baseball fields. It was advertised in the local paper, so a few of my friends and
myself, we went to watch the game. Before the game started they asked if anyone was
interested in trying out to come down on the field and they would take a look at you.
Interviewer: “So, you went to this game without even expecting to tryout?”
Definitely, just to watch a girl’s game that we never even knew existed.
Interviewer: “So, how do they handle the tryouts? What do they do?”
First he asked if anyone pitched with a baseball, knowing that not too many girls played
baseball, so I told him I did, but like I always say, if he asked if anyone could catch, I
would have said yes. It wouldn’t have been the truth, but I would have learned in a
hurry. 17:10
Interviewer: “So, what happened at the tryout?”
At tryouts he just had me thow a few pitches and he told me I’d hear from them and in a
few weeks I did. I received a contract and I was told to go to South Bend, Indiana where
they had tryouts for all the girls they picked up on these tours, so all the girls that tried
out like I did, were in South Bend, Indiana in May the following year just before spring
training started. The managers down there would watch us for whatever positions we
played and they could choose what they needed to fill their teams. 17:50

3

�Interviewer: “Now at that point were their some people who were getting cut and
didn’t get to make the team? If they got the kind of invitation you got were they
probably going to play?”
No, everyone was still afraid of being cut whether you signed any forms of any type, you
were still eligible to be cut, but I was put on the Muskegon Lassies team and they put me
on a bus to where Muskegon had their spring training and Max Carey was manager of the
Fort Wayne Daisies at the time and that’s who we were having our training with.
Interviewer: “So, you had the two teams training together?”
Yes
Interviewer: “Do you remember where it was you were doing that?”
Cape Girardeau, Missouri
Interviewer: “What was at Cape Girardeau?”
Actually, not too much, coming from New York. One of the big rivers there, I believe it
was the Mississippi and I said, “Wow, I get to see the Mississippi River”, and that was
nothing I expected to do. 18:57
Interviewer: “So, what was it like for you? A lot of the women who joined the
league came from small towns or the country or wherever, but come from the big
city, so what sort of adjustments did you have to make when you left home and went
out there?”
Not really too much, I mean—see, New York City is five boroughs and Staten Island is
more small town than the other four boroughs, so it wasn’t that much different.
Interviewer: “Describe, a little bit, the experience in Cape Girardeau. What was it
like? What was the weather like? What were the facilities like?”

4

�The weather was nice down there and we trained outside except for one day we had rain
and we had indoor facilities to work in, in case of rain. You couldn’t do as much as you
did outside, but it was sufficient. 19:53
Interviewer: “All right, now, when you were down there in training, were all the
veteran players there too?”
Yes, they were there already.
Interviewer: “Were their any particular players or people who paid attention to
you or game you some coaching or were you just all working individually?”
Are you talking about before or when I got there?
Interviewer: “When you got there.”
Before, I had some pretty good coaching. When I got there they just, you know, had us
work out with the veterans at our own positions. They would have us slight pitch to the
veterans and that was kind of scary because these girls were good and I didn’t have any
formal experience what so ever, but it worked out ok. After we trained for a couple of
days we would have games against Fort Wayne and I was complimented by Max Carey
at that point because he came up to me in the hotel after the game and he said, “I know a
lot of you young ladies don’t know if you’re going to play or be sent home, but don’t you
worry, you will not be sent home, because if they release you, I’ll pick you up”, so that
felt pretty good. 21:07
Interviewer: “What pitches did you throw?”
My brother taught me to throw a curve ball, a knuckle ball; I had a pretty good fastball,
and once in a while what we always called a drop, which drops straight down, not break
sideways.

5

�Interviewer: “Once you completed training in Cape Girardeau, did you
immediately go up to Muskegon or what did you do next?”
We went up to Muskegon and the season started.
Interviewer: “Did you do any barnstorming along the way? Did you play games in
route or just go on up north?”
I think we went right up to Muskegon. We finished all of spring training and went right
on up to Muskegon and the season was just getting ready to start. 21:51
Interviewer: “What kinds of rules and regulations did they have in place still for
the women on these teams?”
They had a lot more before I got there, thankfully, but we did have rules. We had to
always appear in feminine attire in public and you weren’t supposed to swear or drink or
smoke in public, which I didn’t do any of those things anyway, I was only eighteen and it
didn’t affect me. There were rules to always be on good behavior, they didn’t want
rowdiness and stuff like that. They wanted you to appear in public as a lady and that, you
know. We always say they wanted us to look like ladies and play like men.
Interviewer: “Did they have a chaperone for the team?’
There was always a chaperone, yes; in case a girl got hurt she would be there to take care
of her. She took care of our housing for us and when we were on the road she would take
care of the rooms and make sure everybody had their rooms and in the hotels they could
make sure you met your curfew and stuff like that. You had a curfew after games, which
was plenty of time. 23:04 On the road there wasn’t too much you could do anyway.
Interviewer: “Did you like the chaperones? Were they good people?”

6

�Oh, they were fine, and some of them were ball players themselves, so they knew what
we were going through and how to handle everything and they were like a second mother
to us.
Interviewer: “Do you remember playing your first regular season game?”
No, because I wasn’t in the starting rotation, and I was always told that I was going to be
ready to be the relief pitcher certain nights and I just never really got into the game. I
must have gotten into five games in Kalamazoo because there was a record for five
games. At that point we had moved to Kalamazoo, Michigan.
Interviewer: “You were at Muskegon first, right?”
Muskegon, and I guess they weren’t doing well as far as drawing crowds and they were
looking for a new city to try to play in and they tried out Kalamazoo and drew very good
crowds there. 24:12 I guess they talked it over and Kalamazoo became the Kalamazoo
Lassies. They were still going strong after the 1954 season and we would have kept
playing. We were doing very well financially.
Interviewer: “What were the fans like? What do you remember about them?”
They were great. You know how some people thought they would heckle and stuff like
that, and that may have happened in the beginning, but like I say, I wasn’t there and
fortunately or unfortunately, however you want to look at it, I missed a lot of that. I
never met a fan that, you know, would heckle anyone or ridicule or make comments that
we not complementary, but I thought our fans were great. 25:03
Interviewer: “And what kinds of people liked to come to the games? Were they
older, younger, kids, men, women?”

7

�You had families coming to the games, you had men, you had young boys, teenagers and
the young girls were very interested and their parents would come with them, so it was
really a family atmosphere.
Interviewer: “How long did you play or what years did you play?”
I played the last five years of the league, 1950 through 1954.
Interviewer: “Ok, and over the course of that time you moved around a certain
amount? You mentioned having your team move from Muskegon to Kalamazoo,
but did you play for other teams as well?”
Yes I did, after we moved to Kalamazoo, it was a couple of weeks after that, I was told
that Racine needed a couple of pitchers and that I was being sent up there because they
were making trades for infielders, which Kalamazoo needed. That’s the way they, at that
point in time, tried to keep the teams balanced, which would make for better baseball.
26:05 Make it more competitive rather than have one team loaded up like the Yankees
you know, and they kept it pretty good that way.
Interviewer: “Now when you went to Racine, was that when you really got to pitch
more?”
Yes, I was put right in the rotation up in Racine, so that was a good move for me at that
time.
Interviewer: “Do you remember any of the starts that you make or the games that
you played when you first started?”
I know I did pretty well—I pitched the—I started ten games after that, I had five wins and
five losses, but that doesn’t really tell the story. I had pitched some good games, but I

8

�pitched against some pros, who were also very good pitchers, and I thought that was good
for me at that time. 26:55
Interviewer: “Did you have good defense behind you?”
Yes, in Racine I had very good defense behind me. In Kalamazoo we had a lot of rookies
and I think the reason for that was, the man that took over was from the touring teams
and he said that his girls on tour could compete in the league, so he picked up a lot of the
girls that came up from the tour and made it into the league and he picked a lot of those
up with me, someone who hadn’t played at all, but you know, it was just one of those
things. It wasn’t a good offensive team basically and defensively we had some very good
players.
Interviewer: “But you would have some good infielders to spare to send over to
Kalamazoo when they sent their extra pitchers.”
Right
Interviewer: “What kind of living arrangements did you have in these places?”
We lived with host teams, with host families, sorry. That was a job for the chaperone.
They would advertise for anyone who had extra rooms and would like to host a ball
player and the chaperone would have to check them out and be sure they had the rooms
and that they weren’t putting some of their own family member out. 28:17 I guess that
was a big job for her, but in Kalamazoo I don’t think you could go wrong no matter who
you stayed with. That was a fantastic town.
Interviewer: “Now, was Racine different as a place to stay?”
No, I stayed with a good host family there. The woman had an older son, he was in the
navy and there was another ball player there at the time, so there were two of us staying

9

�at that house. I was just like—in Racine though it was harder to get around and you
needed a car or had to know the bus routes and things like that.
Interviewer: “When you were living in Racine, could you get a day and go down to
Chicago or did you just pretty much stay there?”
You pretty much stayed there. The only traveling I did was when we were traveling on
the road. 29:01
Interviewer: “All right, and how did they get you from place to place when you
were playing on the road?”
Well, we used basically Greyhound buses or that type of bus to get us back and forth.
When we got back to Kalamazoo, the following year, they had their own bus, so we had a
little better bus ride because they took some seats out and put a refrigerator in and had it
loaded with soda and then in the back they put a table and some of us liked to play cards.
I liked to, but I couldn’t get to the back of the bus because I would get motion sickness,
so I had to have the front seat.
Interviewer: “So, did you spend the last part of one season with Racine?”
Yes
Interviewer: “Did they move you someplace else the next year? Then what
happened?” 30:00
Over the winter Racine moved to Battle Creek, Michigan, so I reported to Battle Creek
and I guess, maybe close to halfway through the season I was asked to go back to
Kalamazoo and I said, “that’s fine with me, you want me to play here, you want me to
play there, it doesn’t matter as long as I’m playing”, so I did, I went back to Kalamazoo.
The next three years I stayed with Kalamazoo.

10

�Interviewer: “Now, while you were with Kalamazoo the second time, did you now
get to start on a regular basis?”
Oh yes, I was right—the starting pitcher right from the beginning.
Interviewer: “What do you think was your best season?”
My best season was my third season, 1952. I pitched twenty-four consecutive complete
games.
Interviewer: “Did you have a sore arm or anything else like that?”
In the five years that I played, I never had a sore arm and never had any sores or
problems physically. 31:04
Interviewer: “Twenty-four complete games, I guess back then you had major
league pitchers who would do that kind of thing?”
They did the same thing back then, they pitched the complete games unless they had to
make a change, and today it’s just a six-inning game.
Interviewer: “You held-up that much longer. Did any of the teams you were with
manage to get to a championship game?”
Kalamazoo won the championship the last year, 1954.
Interviewer: “What do you remember about that season?”
That was a very good team. The last two years they had, they might have even started the
year before, they started bringing in some better ball players because two teams had
dropped out of the league, so there were some good ball players around and you could
pick-up good ball players and split them between the six teams that were left. We had
Dotty Schroeder, which was one of them, and I’m trying to think, Fern Schollenberger
played third base, I mean, these were girls that were excellent ball players. 32:10 Dotty

11

�Naum, she could pitch, she could play short stop, she was a catcher and she was just an
all around good ball player. Dotty Schroeder was another excellent short stop and when I
pitched against her in Fort Wayne I just admired the way she played and I was very
happy to have her on the Lassies, so that helped a lot.
Interviewer: “One of the things that characterized the league a little bit was that
you had some people that were really good base stealers. They could get on base,
now, what could you do to limit the damage? Did you have a pick-off move?”
Well, there again, I was fortunate—before I came out to my first tryouts in South Bend
there, three of my ball players from Staten Island were working out, two pitchers and a
catcher, and like I said, my brother showed me how to throw the pitches and then I was
just throwing the ball I wasn’t pitching. 33:14 The pitcher I’m going to talk about
showed me how to hold runners on base and how to—there were two ways a base stealer
could get a sign from you that he could go, and one was when you put your knee up off
the mound or broke your hands from the glove and he said you have to learn to do both of
them together because one or the other and their going to get a jump on you, so I learned
that and I was very successful at holding runners on. To say no one ever stole, because
they did, because we had some very good runners, but I learned that and he taught me
how to follow through on a pitch, which is probably why I never had a sore arm. His
name was George Bamberger who was the pitching coach for the Baltimore Orioles, was
successful and also became a major league manager. 34:06
Interviewer: “He managed the Brewers.”
The Brewers and the Mets.

12

�Interviewer: “You mentioned earlier something how you had gotten some pretty
good coaching before you went off to spring training. Was that what you were
talking about back there?”
Yes-- I couldn’t have gotten better coaching, for pitching anyway.
Interviewer: “So, did you have success at either picking runners off or holding
them on?”
Yeah, I had success at picking them off at first and I have to give my catcher the credit
because they had rifle arms and by me getting the ball to the plate quickly and them
having such good arms, we did throw a lot of good runners out.
Interviewer: “So, did they learn maybe not to try to steal against you quite as
much?”
Possibly
Interviewer: “Did you have much occasion to hit the ball?”
Well, we batted, and we didn’t have designated hitters, so we got up and I didn’t have a
great batting average. At one point in one season I was over three hundred and wow, it
was even printed in the paper, but it didn’t last too long. 35:16 I could hit a ball, but I
wasn’t a hitter. I could hit a lot of ground ball outs and I had my share of strikeouts, but I
wasn’t a total flop.
Interviewer: “Do you think that it helped you that you really learned to play just in
baseball rather than softball?”
Well, I learned softball first just playing in the streets and playing without gloves my
hands took a little beating once in a while, but I think it helped because you had to teach
yourself and learn as you went along.

13

�Interviewer: “But when you were playing with the boys, or whatever, was that
always softball or was there a point when they were playing regular baseball?”
Oh no, we played baseball and we would challenge other parts of the—of course there
were a lot of younger people my age on the island at the same time in the area where I
lived. It was very well populated and you could just go maybe two or three block and
challenge another team and that’s when I had to pitch for the boys because I had the
curve. 36:19
Interviewer: “when you played some of these other neighborhood teams, did any of
them have girls playing for them?”
No, when I see them now, or when I see them or when I seen “The League” when it first
came out, actually when the movie first came out I would meet them maybe in the street
or somewhere and they would tell me—especially one guy, he said he was so
embarrassed when I struck him out because he didn’t strikeout that much, but now he
says to his children and grandchildren, “she struck me out”. 36:55
Interviewer: “Now you played to the end—would you have kept playing if the
league had continued?”
Oh yes, I was just getting started at five years. I felt like I was just getting started and I
would have played a good maybe five, six, seven years. I figured I would have at least
that much.
Interviewer: “How much were they paying you then?”
Well, they started us out at fifty-five dollars a week and supposedly they had a maximum
of a hundred dollars a week and after my third season, that’s what I was making.

14

�Interviewer: “Now, was that pretty good money at that point? Better than you
might make if you were staying home with a job?”
I was making twenty-five dollars working forty hours a week in an office in Manhattan,
so fifty-five dollars was much better than that.
Interviewer: “Now, if you hadn’t had the chance to go play ball what do you think
you would have done in those years?”
I did work in the off-season. I worked back in the city, but that became a hassle too
because I had to take a bus from the island, a ferryboat, then the subway and the same
thing coming back home and that could be like three hours traveling a day, so I probably
would have looked for something right on Staten Island. 38:09 I did work in a
supermarket when I went back to Kalamazoo and I could have done different kinds of
job. I’ve worked in an office, I’ve worked in stores, and I would have found something.
Interviewer: “In the last couple of seasons there, did you have any indication that
the league was having trouble and that this might not go on forever?”
Actually no, I thought just that they might build it up again and get another team and
possibly build it up again. What was written in the paper about the league breaking was
that they were just going to take a year off and try to find new cities and if they could find
new cities it would be a novelty again in that city, and possibly draw enough people to
support it, but it just never came about, so that was just the end of it. There was no
discussion of any sort after that because they couldn’t find the cities. 39:08
Interviewer: “So, what did you do then once the league folded?”
I went back home and I worked in a store on the island and my brother was stationed in
Battle Creek and when he came home for the Christmas holidays that year with his wife,

15

�he told me that my good friend Dotty Naum got married and had a little baby. He said
she would like for me to come and stay with her for a while, so I did, I went back to
Battle Creek, I stayed with her because her husband was on the road a lot, and we use to
go into Kalamazoo once in a while to visit the ball players because a lot of the players
stayed in Kalamazoo and went to work there. Somebody said, “Why don’t you stay here
and play softball? We have so many girls from the league on the teams”, and I said,
“yeah, but I don’t have a job or anything”, and one girl said, “don’t worry, the sponsor
will give you a job”, and that’s when I went to work in his store. 40:17 I was there for
like a year and a half and I’d be getting calls from home like, “When are you coming
home?” Finally I said, “I better go”. I was just going to go visit for a little while and
eighteen months was a little more than that, so I went back home and I went back to work
in the city, and like I said before, it just was too much of a hassle.
Interviewer: “Then did you have a long term career or did you get married and
have a family? What did you do?”
I got married in 1959, so I didn’t have that long of a career. I did work a few years, until
I became pregnant and then I gave up the job and stayed home to be a stay at home mom.
Interviewer: “Where do you live now?”
I live on Staten Island.
Interviewer: “So, there are still some people there that you grew up with and you
played ball against and all that kind of thing?” 41:08
Oh yes

16

�Interviewer: “Because you kind of stayed in the same place and some of the people
were people you played ball with, did the people you knew, or worked with, did they
know that you played professional baseball?”
The people that I knew did and my sisters and brothers, if they had a friend and introduce
me, they would tell them that I played professional baseball, and they would say, “oh,
you played softball”, and my brother would say, “no, she played baseball”. They never
heard of a women’s baseball league, just like I didn’t until they came to Staten Island, but
it was hard for them to believe.
Interviewer: “While you were playing, did you see yourself, or the league, in kind of
way as kind of pioneering or doing something?”
No, I didn’t, not at that point. I was having fun and I was loving it, and I never saw
anything like that and I never expected what happened to be so big. 42:05
Interviewer: “As you kind of get into the seventies and the eighties and so forth, you
get Title IX coming in and you get more emphasis now on getting girls sports and
this kind of thing, did you pay attention to the news of that while it went on?”
Yeah, because I became a coach for the girls at the Staten Island Little League, and I
started with the ten to twelve age limit and then they had the senior girls and they would
graduate and play from thirteen to fifteen and I would go on to that. I was coaching girls
softball down at the little league for about twenty years.
Interviewer: “And if you look at it now do you think the league itself, did it play a
role, or set an example, or do we just realize now just how unusual it was?”

17

�We just realized since it’s taken off, like with the movie and everything, how important it
was. We, like I said, all of us were playing there because we loved the game and we
loved to play it. It was an opportunity, you know, that not too many people had. 43:15
Interviewer: “Did you get involved at all when they were making the movie and any
of the event surrounding that? Did you get to do any of those things?”
I did go out to Chicago when they had the actresses out there and we would—there would
be about sixty of us out there and someone would be taking in field practice and some
would be in the outfield and some would take batting practice and we did just a lot of
different things. Then I was asked to go to the Hall of Fame in Cooperstown when they
were there, and my husband just had a hip replaced and he couldn’t travel and I said, “I
just can’t leave him home alone”, so my neighbors were telling me to go ahead and they
would take care of him, but it’s not the same. 44:02
Interviewer: “Have you gone out to Cooperstown since then?”
Oh, I go back there every year.
Interviewer: “What did you think of the movie its self?”
Well, when they first told us who was going to be in the movie, especially Madonna, I
said, “What kind of a movie are you making here?” They said they wanted to make it a
comedy and they wanted to make it interesting because to make a movie about baseball
wasn’t going to be that interesting because there is just so much you can do. They
wanted to make it a comedy and they did a very good job doing that.
Interviewer: “Did you think that any of the actresses you were working with got
pretty good at what they were doing?”

18

�Yeah, some of them were pretty good when I met them in Chicago and they worked hard
at it, as a matter of fact, they told us they were picked for their athletic ability before they
were picked for acting, 44:52
Interviewer: “Rosie O’Donnell, Madonna? I don’t know.”
Well, not Madonna, but Rosie O’Donnell was a good athlete, and a couple of the others,
but Madonna was—she came and she wasn’t supposed to be in the movie, she was
supposed to do the background music, and she got caught up in all of it and she loved it.
Being a good friend of Penny Marshall, she said she wanted to be in the movie, so I
watched her try to catch and throw while we were out there and everybody’s calling
attention to her, “look at her, she’s trying to throw and she throws like”. She doesn’t
know how, but we found out she was a very good athlete in itself. She took very good
care of herself, but she just didn’t play ball, but she got someone to teach her and she got
a very good job out of it. 45:47
Interviewer: “When you think back over your professional playing career, are
there particular moments or events that kind of stand out in your memory, that
come back to you a lot?”
I just think of the people that we stayed with and the people in Kalamazoo like the family
I stayed with. The woman was a retired schoolteacher and the husband was still working
at one of the plants in Kalamazoo. They had two grown sons who were out of the house,
so that’s how they had the rooms, and we just got so close to them that, you know, we
visited them when they moved to Florida. They wanted to meet my mother, so I took my
mother to Florida to meet them. People in Kalamazoo were always having something for
the team, either some sort of a cook out or barbeque or stuff like that. They were always

19

�doing things for you. You couldn’t help but like the whole city and I’m sure that went on
in the other cities, also. 46:55
Interviewer: “If you look back on it now, how do you think your time in the
baseball league wound up affecting you? Did you learn things or grow? Did you
change at all because you had that experience?”
I’ll tell you, I got over my shyness. I was very shy and of course with ten siblings, you
could talk to them all, but it was—like in school it was difficult for me to get up and read
a book report or something like that and it helped in that respect.
Interviewer: “And do you think you learned things about people and dealing with
people different from yourself and that sort of thing?”
Oh sure, you learned that there are so many different types of people in different—I use
to make fun of the way the girls from the south talked and they use to make fun of me. I
said, “I don’t have an accent, you do”, but it was nice to meet people from all different
parts of the country. That was an education in its self.
Interviewer: “Anything else you would like to put on the record here before we
close out the interview?” 48:03
I can’t really think, I think we covered just about everything.
Interviewer: “You have a good story and you tell it well, so thank you very much
for coming in and sharing it today.”
You are very welcome, thank you.

20

�21

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                  <text>All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews</text>
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                  <text>Grand Valley State University. History Department</text>
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                  <text>The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports.</text>
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                  <text>Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401</text>
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                    <text>Living With PFAS
Interviewee: Kevin Elliot
Interviewer: Dani DeVasto
Date: October 17, 2021

DD: I’m Dani DeVasto, and - [Recording paused] chatting with doctor Kevin Elliot. Hi Kevin.
KE: Hey.
DD: Kevin, can you tell me about where you're from and where you currently live.
KE: Sure, well originally I grew up near the Chicago area - in the suburbs. Currently I live in
Okemos, Michigan, which is just to the east of east lansing where im a faculty member at
michigan state university.
DD: And how long have you been there?
KE: I came in January of 2014, so I guess it's been about 7 and a half years.
DD: Kevin, can you tell me a story about your experience with pfas or with pfas in your
community?
KE: Yeah, so um... I don't have a good story about PFAS in my community, but um, I have, over
the past year been involved with the center for PFAS research at MSU, and then I’ve been on a,
um, National Academy of Sciences Committee thats is trying to give guidance to clinicians as
they work with people who are concerned about PFAS exposure. And I guess maybe just a story
that might be of interest related to that is that we’ve been having these public sessions where
people who have been dealing with PFAS exposure can share their experiences, and several of
the sort of stories that I've heard through that have been some that are really striking to me. And
um, I guess maybe i'll just say one general sort of reaction first then you can let me know if you
want me to get more concrete. The general reaction that has just been striking to me as I hear
from different people who have been saying, saying they have children who ended up with
testicular cancer or you know, other sorts of effects, or um other people, you know, spouses who
have been dealing with health effects is just how frustrated they've been, feeling like their um,
the physicians they've been working with, haven't been very supportive or in some cases even
kind of minimize the likelihood that PFAS contributed to the health problems. And of course,
you know it is - you can't be sure what caused it. But it was just so surprising to me hearing
about the disappointment they've had working with doctors that either don't know anything about

�PFAS, which I can kind of understand. But then also, just plain kind of being dismissive and not
wanting to be very helpful in exploring PFAS as a potential contributor to these problems. So
that was really striking to me.
DD: Can you maybe take a step back and talk a little bit about how you got to that point of
having those conversations; some of your background in any context, I think that might be
helpful.
KE: Yeah, I mean It would be helpful to talk about sort of how I ended up, like, how this
committee ended up forming, or like sort of my background in terms of my scholarship and stuff
like that DD: Yes, yes.
KE: Okay, I'll talk about it all. So i'm a philosopher of science and I uh, - I don't know how
much nitty gritty to go into - I have a background in chemistry and then I got interested in
philosophy, and so I ended up doing my PhD in the history of philosophy and science and alot of
scholarship involved studying controversies about science, and especially environmental kind of
areas of science, and um, especially environmental pollution. And so, I would sometimes look at
the role of conflicts of interest in that science. How they all have different groups with different
financial stakes or other personal stakes in scientific controversies or how harmful chemicals
may be. So I'm interested in, sort of, what are the judgements that go into evaluating the science
in trying to say, yeah we think this chemical is pretty harmful or no its not that big of a deal. So
yeah, as a philosopher I dont do the hardcore science but I sort of reflect and look at the dates
and try to understand why are there these disagreements, how do we handle the disagreements,
how do we sort of address them responsibly and so on. So anyway, as part of that work, I have
ended up getting a little bit connected with agencies like The National Institute of Environmental
Health Sciences which is part of the national institute of health. Which funds alot of our medical
research in the US, and the national academy of sciences. I don't know if it's helpful for me to
say what that is for folks, uh DD: Sure.
KE: Folks watching this may not know so much, The National Academy of Sciences put
together, actually back during the civil war, as um sort of an expert organization provided by [?]
to the federal government. And so, It will create committees to address certain issues when
government agencies want certain advice on things. Most of the time it would be science on
these committees, um, and uh so I was a little surprised when I got a approached to see if I could
serve on this particular committee, that um, was actually partly - trying to think of the right word
- commission, I guess, by a branch of the center of disease control, the ATSDR, which is the

�Agency for Toxic Substances and Diseases [?] This is this group that helps deal with
communities who are facing chemical exposures, pollution, spills [?]. And so they've provided
advice to doctors in the past about how to deal with PFAS, but they've had pushback from
communities feeling like the advice they've provided hasn't really been what they hoped for,
communities feel like the current guidance isn't very supportive for them to be able to get tested
for their exposure to PFAS, and it maybe doesn't - Yeah maybe just isn't as aggressive when
accepting that their might be health effects from PFAS exposures as i think a lot of people in
these communities would want. Anyways, so this community was put together and its mostly
scientists, I was a little surprised as a philosopher that they asked me to be involved. But, I now
understand why, because one of the things the committee asked to do is to provide principals for
clinicians who are making decisions and providing advice under scientific uncertainty. I think
they use the language of substantial scientific uncertainty. Scientists often don't really like
having to provide advice in those kinds of situations. And it's just a tricky, tricky issue. So
anyway, I think they realized maybe it'll be good to have someone like me on this committee,
and I think it turned out to be a good move. So that's the background behind this, and I’m just
blabbing away but as we got started, often it would just be us experts deliberating, and we ended
up realizing this is so tightly connected with people's own experiences, maybe to be responsible,
we really need to have some open town halls where we can hear from various people and
communities who have had these experiences, and so that's where my story came from, that
we’ve been hearing these [?] experiences, and that's probably what I’m most useful for sharing
during this discussion. Because I don't have personal experiences but I’ve been struck by what
I’ve heard from people.
DD: Absolutely, were people something you were aware of before you started this project? How
did you kind of come to be aware?
KE: I was hearing about it a bit, just from you know interacting with other people in the
university setting, um so I don't know exactly when I first heard of it, but I kept hearing little bits
and pieces about it, and kind of got the sense, you know, i feel like the environmental health
community will go through these waves where there will be this new big thing we realize, “Ah”
This is a problem and there hasn't been enough work on it, then you know maybe it dies down, or
it maintains attention and something else will come up that we realize, so I just kept hearing bits
and pieces about it and thinking wow maybe this is a significant area I should try and learn more
about. And then when some of the faculty at MSU started kind of pursuing like, some research
funding to try and make a center for research on PFAS, I thought well this is a great opportunity
to find out more, and so I got involved in that center. Thats been the past couple of years I’ve
been learning a lot, I really didn't know much previously.
DD: And do you foresee PFAS continuing to be part of your research focus moving forward or
do you think this is - Like once you develop these guidelines?

�KE: I think that, so you know participation in the national academy will be over, were supposed
to have a report submitted in May of 2022, but, I would like to continue sort of exploring this
issue, kind of as a philosopher I tend to sort of explore areas like case studies where i’ll sort of
look over the research being done on them, you know, ask questions about it. So I would like this
to be uh one of these case studies that I look at in the future. I have the benefit. Scientists have to
develop all this infrastructure in their labs and really focus on something. I have the luxury. I can
look at multiple case studies, but I’d like this to be one of them for a while to come I think.
DD: So, as a philosopher then, are there particular questions or aspects of this particular PFAS
case study that interest you, or challenge you, or you know... keep your attention?
KE: Yeah um, well I think - I don't know that PFAS is totally unique compared to you know,
other things, but I think there are some issues in this case and in other cases that strike me as
really interesting. And one is, it once again highlights the question of how to engage in
appropriate regulation and policy and responses to these issues where we're just not gonna have
all the scientific knowledge that we'd like. Because, you know like I constantly hear, you know
about thousands, you know often the numbers like five thousand different PFAS compounds that
could be used, that are out there, depending on how you find exactly what counts in this
category, and so there's just no way we can test all these things in detail, it's like a micro[?] of
our general problems with, you know, chemical recreation, so we have to find strategic ways to
sort of make decisions without knowing all of the nitty-gritty details. You know, some people
suggest we should group them together as either a huge class, or as some class and say look, if a
chemical falls under this general group, then shouldn't use it, or try to minimize the use, or try to
look for alternatives for the greatest extent possible. And so, those are the things that interest me,
sort of looking at the science and the decision making and trying to figure out what do we do
given that this is just too messy, there's just too much going on to really study in great detail.
DD: So I know your report and your study are still ongoing, but do you have any ideas about
what we should do?
KE: Yeah well... so... so this is where I probably can't say a ton about the details of the report at
this point. But, um, I think a general theme in my work is to argue that it's a real mistake to think
that you have to have the science figured out, before you can make decisions. I tend to be a fan
of the folks who, you know some folks have been writing articles, saying things like given how
persistent these are in the environment and given that, you know a lot of them seem to be fairly
bioaccumulative, meaning that um, a build up in organisms and as it goes up the food chain you
know, humans can end up you know [?] in our bodies. I think we have to be willing to go ahead
and take some sort of action, even if we don't have decisive proof that there's a problem. And
that's actually a little bit different from what I’m saying from the details from what we're talking

�about in our report, our advice for clinicians. I guess I’m giving this general sort of perspective
that we cant be perfectly precautionary with respect to everything, but I think it doesn't make any
sense to say well we can't take any actions until we get the science. I think that's a mistake.
DD: Well I will be looking forward to reading your report, in the near future hopefully.
KE: Yeah, yeah. I’m hoping that it will be useful and it has been really interesting so I’ll just
mention one other thing. As part of putting it together we looked at sorts of frameworks for
making decisions under uncertainty, and it has been kind of striking to me that again, I feel like
these frameworks in general are much more geared towards making the decision when you’ve
got a good deal of evidence that we don’t have as quality frameworks for making decisions under
uncertainty, and I think the scientific community just doesn't feel super comfortable with that.
That's just the one comment I would make that's been interesting for me as I've been reading and
[?].
DD: And can I maybe ask about another- other frameworks in terms of guidance from medical
professionals. What's kind of the status on guidance for that or for medical professionals
specifically dealing with PFAS right now?
KE: Yeah, I’m not much of an expert on the medical stuff, but it's been very interesting for me
learning a little bit more, there's a well put together framework from the United States Preventive
Services Task Force (USPSTF) And I get the impression they provide all kinds of guidelines for
things like, you know when you should start getting prostate cancer screening or colonoscopies
or breast cancer screening or all that kinds of stuff. And so they’ve got this whole framework in
place for trying to evaluate evidence and decide when it's enough to definitely recommend that
people do something or recommend that people do it, um, if they want to, you know leaving
more judgement for them, and like how much evidence they wanna see in order to make these
kinds of recommendations. So it's really pretty aggressive, but again, my sense of the framework,
they don't really like to provide recommendations when there's substantial scientific uncertainty.
So that’s one of the frameworks that was interesting to learn a little bit more about.
DD: Sure. So what concerns, if any, do you have about PFAS contamination or PFAS related
issues moving forward from this time?
KE: Yeah, one of the things that strikes me, and this is coming from hearing people talk in these
town halls from the committee, was just how sad it is, that you’ll have communities where on the
one hand, people will want to find more about the contamination in their communities. But then,
they’re afraid, at least some people in the communities are afraid, that if there were more, well
then it would end up being economically harmful, like people don't want to come to those
communities as tourists or people don't want to buy houses in those communities - or um - It was

�so striking hearing about, like, farmers or ranchers like once they found out that they're, lets say,
herd of animals was contaminated. Then they are in just a total mess in terms of not being able to
sell the animals or sell milk from the animals or things like that. And so, It really worries me
realizing that there's this tension between wanting to learn more about, you know, the potential
threats one faces, then they are communities will disadvantage finding this stuff out. That can
create tension between communities, and just, - serious economic problems, and so anyways that
was really striking to me.
DD: Yeah, I can imagine that playing out in a number of different ways into communities. Well,
before we wrap up, Kevin, is there anything that you'd like to go back to, that we - or anything
you'd like to add that we haven't touched on? I know you jumped around your story.
KE: Right, right.
DD: But I wanted to hear if you had a chance to go and say anything additional.
KE: Yeah, another thing I guess - I guess that has just struck me, as I’ve been learning more
about PFAS and maybe this is more sort of, you know the cognitive and academic thing you're
looking for, but um, It's just been interesting - One of the things that I have been intrigued about
is debates about biosolids, which are you know kind of produced from waste water treatment
plants and have lots of, fertilizer potentially. So farmers will, you know, put them on their fields,
and in principle it seems like a great way to kind of have a circular economy where you know,
we're producing sewage waste, but we can take some of the good aspects of it and put it back on
the land. But, then there are concerns now about pollutants in biosolids and so on, and worries
that if we put it on farmers' fields it can cause problems, you know, potentially taken up by crops
and then be a problem for people or be a problem for people near those fields and so on. It's just
been striking as I learn more about this, I don't know enough about the scientific details on how
much you should be worried about this and so on, um, but just realizing what a problem it is to
sort of deal with these when they are so persistent in the environment, that its like they just keep
cycling around. So you know, well go into the wastewater treatment plant, and then they go to
the biosolids and the biosolids either have to go to some landfill somewhere or have to get spread
on someones fields, then it goes to the landfills and eventually seems to come out in the [?] then
that has to go somewhere, maybe back to a wastewater treatment plant, if it spreads on the fields
then it may go into water. And the ways in which - We can’t get rid of this stuff, you know,
unless I guess you burn it at 1000 degrees celsius or something, again the scientists can provide
more nitty-gritty but that has been pretty striking to me, and again has kinda furthered my
thinking, where you know, it just doesn't make sense to use persistent compounds like this, if we
can avoid it. Because it’s just such a mess if they might become a problem. And so I think that's
something that has been really striking and interesting to me as i've learned a little bit more about
PFAS.

�DD: Yeah, a whole other set of problems.
KE: Right, exactly. And I - I don't know if there's anything else, um, that struck me. [Brief
Pause] I guess just the other thing, and again this isn’t particularly profound, but it's been so
interesting to me also hearing about some of the communities, or like, uh, seeing your military
bases, or like firefighters where they are especially using these foams, they call them “A Triple
F” [?] Forming foams I think, they reason in which they were told this is just like soap and they
had no worries about these, and you know sometimes they would just use it for fun. Kids would
play in this stuff, figuring you know they could just spray this everywhere and not worry at all
about being exposed to it. And um, It just makes me wonder kinda the lesson I kind of gleamed
from this is, what things are we exposed to now, where we’re just assuming there's nothing to
worry about, and then we might find out 10 years from now, oh there was a problem, and again,
we wanna ask these questions about surely there should be a better way of strategizing in terms
of putting products onto the market. I know we don't want to halt innovation, but it's just so
striking to me the way we just produce thousands of chemicals and just throw them out there and
then end up finding out kinda later at some point that there's a worry. I'm just pontificating about
all kinds of stuff.
DD: Well I mean from a historical perspective too it's interesting right, I'm sure you've seen this
is not the first time humanity has done something like this. Like, we seem to keep doing these
things where we throw products out there and discover after the fact that we need to [?] back. So
I imagine there might be some interest for you there from a historical perspective as well.
KE: Of course, of course, absolutely. Great point.
DD: Yeah, well thank you so much, Kevin. For taking the time to share your story today.
KE: Yeah! It's a pleasure and I'm really glad youre doing this project.
DD: Thank you.
KE: Thanks.

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                    <text>Grand Valley State University
Veterans History Project
Vietnam War
Roger Elliott
(16:07)
Background Information (00:18)








Born January 9th 1949 (00:19)
He served as a Sergeant E5 in the U.S. Army in Vietnam. (00:20)
Raised in Indiana. (1:00)
Roger played football while in High school. (1:20)
He finished high school in May of 1967. In October of 1967 he had already enlisted and was sent
to basic training. (1:26)
He hoped he would not end up in Vietnam. The family did have some military history. (2:04)
Roger’s siblings were ineligible for the draft due to age. (2:40)

Fort Leonard wood Missouri. (2:50)





Roger completed basic training at Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri . the program lasted 10 weeks.
(2:50)
The men spent much time on physical training to get the men in shape for combat. (3:10)
He took advanced training in supply at Fort Lee Virginia, for another 8 to 10 weeks after basic.
(3:30)
The men were sent to Vietnam by aircraft. The plane traveled from California to Alaska then to
Vietnam. (4:09)

Service in Vietnam (4:43)








Roger was stationed in Cam Ranh Bay. (4:45)
He served as a supply sergeant. Aside from night patrol once a month, Rodger managed the
income an outgo of supplies and delivered supplies to various units. (5:15)
Most men spent spare time sleeping or trying to relax. Most men always had their guard up.
(5:56)
There were Vietnamese civilians taking care of the base's laundry. (6:32)
Roger believed, when he was there, that the Vietnam War was unwinnable. But he still felt bad
for the Vietnamese when the U.S. pulled out. (7:13)
Roger used letters to communicate back home, but wasn’t as diligent about it as other men.
(8:12)
The extent to which men were moved around inhibited Rodger from making close friends. (9:22)

End of Service (9:25)



Roger was in Savannah, Georgia when the Vietnam War ended. (9:25)
The men were flown from Saigon to California aboard a commercial jet. Roger was not informed
of how bad the attitude was back at home was about the war. The lack of respect for the
soldiers was very sad. (9:43)

�






He is not a member of any veterans’ organizations. (10:58)
It was difficult to adjust to the peace of home. (11:20)
Roger is happy that training and military strategy has improved sense Vietnam. He is worried,
however, when he looks at the conflicts in the Middle East. (12:10)
He doesn’t believe that his service has affected him too much. (13:23)
Service did help Roger grow and mature. (14:34)
He believes that Americans are very fortunate for what they have. (15:31)

�</text>
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                <text>University Archives. COVID-19 Journaling Project</text>
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            <name>Publisher</name>
            <description>An entity responsible for making the resource available</description>
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                <text>Grand Valley State University University Libraries. Special Collections and University Archives.</text>
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          <element elementId="47">
            <name>Rights</name>
            <description>Information about rights held in and over the resource</description>
            <elementTextContainer>
              <elementText elementTextId="817310">
                <text>&lt;a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/"&gt;In Copyright&lt;/a&gt;</text>
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          <element elementId="51">
            <name>Type</name>
            <description>The nature or genre of the resource</description>
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                <text>Moving Image</text>
              </elementText>
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          <element elementId="42">
            <name>Format</name>
            <description>The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource</description>
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                <text>video/mp4</text>
              </elementText>
            </elementTextContainer>
          </element>
          <element elementId="44">
            <name>Language</name>
            <description>A language of the resource</description>
            <elementTextContainer>
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                <text>eng</text>
              </elementText>
            </elementTextContainer>
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