207 24 26018 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/cf585f35011953e89d48589d89b63737.jpg 0c818acfcfeb67e8b735672a2835b92e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Valley State University Photographs Subject The topic of the resource Aerial photographs Universities and colleges Michigan Grand Rapids (Mich.) Allendale (Mich.) Building Facilities Dormitories Students Events 1960s 1970s 1980s 1990s 2000s Description An account of the resource People, places, and events of Grand Valley State University from its founding in 1960 as a 4-year college in western Michigan. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource News & Information Services. University Communications Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/41">News &amp; Information Services. University Photographs. (GV012-01)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-03-03 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC-NC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright - Non-Commercial Use Permitted</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource image Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1960s-2000s Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Local Subject Subject headings specific to a particular image collection 1990s Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/41">University photographs, GV012-01</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-01_UAPhotos_000264 Title A name given to the resource Cheerleaders on the football field Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dostie, James M. Description An account of the resource Cheerleaders on the field at a Laker's football game. Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Allendale (Mich.) Universities and colleges Students Sports Football players Cheerleading Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC-NC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright - Non-Commercial Use Permitted</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1990 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives black and white photo https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5bb4b3088334bbe6b8270703da388760.jpg 31d259e963e4c6c6d2832168af4bd19f Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Valley State University Photographs Subject The topic of the resource Aerial photographs Universities and colleges Michigan Grand Rapids (Mich.) Allendale (Mich.) Building Facilities Dormitories Students Events 1960s 1970s 1980s 1990s 2000s Description An account of the resource People, places, and events of Grand Valley State University from its founding in 1960 as a 4-year college in western Michigan. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource News & Information Services. University Communications Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/41">News &amp; Information Services. University Photographs. (GV012-01)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-03-03 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC-NC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright - Non-Commercial Use Permitted</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource image Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1960s-2000s Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Local Subject Subject headings specific to a particular image collection 1990s Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/41">University photographs, GV012-01</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-01_UAPhotos_000404 Title A name given to the resource Women's cross-country race Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dostie, James M. Description An account of the resource Women's cross-country race at the Grand Valley State Invitational, Sept. 1990. Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Allendale (Mich.) Universities and colleges Students Sports Runners Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC-NC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright - Non-Commercial Use Permitted</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1990 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives black and white photo https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1222973ab43c85a83928248e2b67c531.m4v 77f7e90de6dac0f215f50237d48758f3 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3610982dce5a5086a5ef3c0b0ec2ceec.pdf a3ea90da1764f58f93593e05fa4dedb9 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans’ History Project Gary Doublestein Vietnam War; Cold War; Iraq War; War in Afghanistan 1 hour 56 minutes 6 seconds (00:00:10) Early Life -Born on November 15, 1952, in Plainwell, Michigan -Grew up on a farm in Wayland, Michigan -Attended high school there (00:00:37) Enlisting in the Navy -Everybody was very aware of the draft during the Vietnam War -He wanted to serve his country, and do it in the Navy -He wanted the experience that the Navy offered, and his father had served in the Navy -Didn’t want to kill anyone, so he wanted to enlist as a hospital corpsman -Needed his mother’s permission, because he was only 17 years old -Recruiter tried to dissuade him from becoming a hospital corpsman -He would have gone into the field with the Marines -Mother refused to sign for him if he pursued being a hospital corpsman -Agreed to go in as an aviation recruit to repair aircraft -Took an aptitude test at the start of basic training -Signed up to be a hospital corpsman (00:03:30) Basic Training -Reported for basic training in June 1970 -Graduated high school on June 6, 1970, and reported for duty a couple weeks later -Went to Naval Training Center San Diego, California -Took his physical in Detroit -Given a choice between Great Lakes Naval Station or Naval Training Center San Diego -Chose San Diego so he could ride on an airplane -Saw a lot of men trying to get out of service -Some were extremely happy to be classified as 4-F (unfit for service) -He saw the Navy as an adventure and a chance to pay for college -Landed in San Diego and was picked up by a bus -Upon arrival at the base, drill instructors immediately started screaming orders -Letting recruits know that the drill instructors were in control -Placed in a transit barracks for about three hours of sleep -During processing, the recruits got their heads shaved and were issued uniforms -Purpose of basic training was to break down the individual and rebuild as a sailor -Consisted of two, seven week-long phases -First seven weeks focused on the basics of becoming a sailor -Marching, knot tying, history, rules and regulations, folding clothes, and inspections -At the time, he didn’t understand the purpose of the discipline, but expected it �-At one point during the first seven weeks, he got called to go to the chaplain’s office -Reported to the office and his brother was there waiting for him -He was doing basic training at the same time -Chaplain gave them four hours to go off base and visit San Diego together -During the second seven weeks, the recruits were treated with more respect -Introduced to potential jobs in the Navy -Joined the “Blue Jackets Choir” -Added two weeks to basic training -Went off the base for performances -Became the admiral of the choir (00:13:46) Hospital Corps School -Went to Hospital Corps School at Balboa Naval Hospital in San Diego -14-week course -Learned the basics of first aid and some more advanced medical skills -Akin to advanced EMT training (00:15:00) Stationed at Camp Pendleton Pt. 1 -Requested several possible duty stations on the East Coast -He was sent to Camp Pendleton, California -Disappointed at the time, but it worked out well for him -Assigned to the Camp Pendleton Naval Hospital -After six months, he met his future wife, a Navy nurse -She was an officer, and he was an enlisted man -They worked together for a while -Took a long time to muster up the courage to ask her on a date -Dated for three months (00:18:16) Deployment to Vietnam & Getting Married -Received orders to go to Vietnam with the USS Kitty Hawk -Decided to ask his girlfriend to marry him, and she said yes -He was only 19 years old at the time -Got married in Whittier, California, and had a short honeymoon -Believes that he got orders for Vietnam as punishment for fraternizing with an officer (00:21:14) Stationed at Camp Pendleton Pt. 2 -Stationed at Camp Pendleton for a year-and-a half -Worked on the surgery floor helping with post-op care -Learned how to use IV catheters because they were new at the time -Worked in the emergency room -Treating marines because of some of their antics -Attached to 1st Fleet Service Regiment -Manned a clinic and worked with a doctor sometimes -Usually worked on his own -Thought he would be sent to Vietnam with the Marines �(00:23:03) Assignment to the USS Kitty Hawk -The USS Kitty Hawk was an aircraft carrier -Decommissioned in 2009 -Carried 100 planes and 5,500 personnel -Excited to go aboard ship until he did -Noisy, hot, humid, smelly, and tedious -Joined the ship in the Philippines -Flew from San Francisco to Clark Air Force Base, Philippines -Took a bus down to Subic Bay and waited a couple weeks -Took a helicopter carrier out to the Kitty Hawk, then flew over -It was extremely hot and humid in Subic Bay -Never visited Olongapo City near Subic Bay -He was just married and didn’t want to risk getting an STD -Never met anyone bound for the Kitty Hawk (00:25:50) Service on the USS Kitty Hawk -Assigned to the medical department -Initially assigned to the medical records section, and fought to get out of it -Reassigned to the lab to help with lab work -Stood watch in the emergency room (00:26:57) USS Kitty Hawk Riot -Near the end of his first cruise, there was a race riot on the Kitty Hawk -In his opinion, it was not solely race motivated -Cruises were supposed to last six months, then return to the United States -Instead, they received orders to go back to Vietnam -Sailors were extremely angry and frustrated with the decision -Came to a head when a black and white sailor got into a fight -The fighting spread through the ship -He treated the crewmen injured in the fighting -One man had to be medically evacuated due to severe head injuries -The Marines rounded up everyone except for the corpsmen -Placed them on the hangar deck -Acted as the shipboard police -He felt the Marines were self-policing -They wouldn’t have tolerated dissent in their ranks -He treated all crewmen regardless of race (00:30:14) Combat Operations -They operated in the South China Sea, about 50 – 100 miles off the South Vietnamese coast -Had flight operations day and night -Always heard the roar and shudder of jets taking off and landing -Longest time on line was 120 days -Conducting combat flights in 1972 -Wasn’t aware of the major offensives taking place in Vietnam -Just followed orders and tried to ignore being hot and miserable �-Operating from April 1972 to November 1972 -Never a day on the line without flight operations (00:33:05) Casualties on the Kitty Hawk -One of his first memories was hearing about a flight crewman getting sucked into a jet engine -Nothing they could do, because there was very little to send home -Some flight crewmen got blown off deck -A resting cable snapped and a cut flight crewman’s legs off -If the crewmen were blown off deck they usually weren’t recovered -12-story drop to the ocean, which was usually fatal -If the fall didn’t kill you, the sharks would have -One man that went overboard was rescued -Ironically, he threw himself overboard -Made Section 8 (mentally unfit for service) (00:35:57) Life on the Kitty Hawk Pt. 1 -He never felt the ship move except in typhoons -The gravity was thrown off, and felt like he was taking a deeper step -Never got seasick (00:37:25) Contact with Home on the Kitty Hawk -Wrote letters every day, but it took weeks to receive mail -Often got a bunch of letters at once -Tried to read them in order and respond in kind -Called his wife on time in the Philippines -Had to wait eight hours and call her at 3 a.m. (00:38:56) Life on the Kitty Hawk Pt. 2 -Had typical shifts on the Kitty Hawk -Worked sick call -Had day shifts and night shifts -There were galleys at the fore and aft (front and back), that operated at all hours -He wound up eating a Milky Way and a Coca Cola for breakfast instead -Worked in the lab -Usually got off work around 5 or 6 p.m. for the day shifts -There were movies at night, and propaganda on the local TV network -He would spend time smoking his pipe and writing letters home -Slept in small beds that were about the size of a coffin -Stacked four high and he had the bottom bunk -Each man had their locker underneath their bunk (00:41:08) Ports of Call on the Kitty Hawk -Stopped in the Philippines a lot -Visited Hong Kong; Singapore; Sasebo, Japan; and Mombasa, Kenya -Most of the ports they stopped at couldn’t accommodate the ship due to its size and crew size -At Mombasa, they anchored offshore and took a ship to shore (00:42:30) Stationed at Naval Air Station Miramar -Returned to the United States in November 1972 �-Learned at an early age how much he valued being with his wife -His wife was still stationed at Camp Pendleton when he got back from his first cruise -Kitty Hawk was bound for Bremerton, Washington, for dry dock repairs -He was technically supposed to go with the ship -Requested a transfer so he could be closer to his wife -Assigned to Naval Air Station Miramar near Camp Pendleton -Worked with Squadron VF-213 -A land and sea-based F-4 squadron -Part of the Kitty Hawk’s complement of fighters -Stationed at Miramar for a year -Did some clinic duties -Went to Fallon, Nevada, for flight exercises -Allowed to bring his wife with him -Got approved for a ride on an F-4, but he never got to do it (00:44:57) Second Cruise on the Kitty Hawk Pt. 1 -Went on the Kitty Hawk for sea trials after its dry dock repairs -Set sail for second cruise -On December 11, 1973, there was an explosion in Number 1 engine room -He was sleeping at the time, and another sailor roused him from his sleep -Had he not been wakened he would have died from smoke inhalation -Everyone moved up to the flight deck until the fire was under control -The explosion caused three of the four ship’s propulsion systems to be shut down -This, in turn, caused the ship to list to portside -Limped to Subic Bay, Philippines, for repairs -He helped treat sailors for minor burns and smoke inhalation -Established a makeshift clinic -Below decks the ship reeked of smoke and the walls were covered in soot -Had to spend a lot of time cleaning up after the fire -*Note: He says nine men died in the fire, but it was only six (00:49:12) End of Navy Service -His second cruise lasted from November 1973 to June 1974 near the end of his enlistment -Got off the ship at Subic Bay and waited to return to the United States -Contracted a gastrointestinal disease -Had to hide it until he got back to the United States -If the Navy knew he was sick, he would’ve had to stay until he recovered (00:51:00) Second Cruise on the Kitty Hawk Pt. 2 -During his second cruise, they went to the Indian Ocean with a task force -Had to sail with supply and fuel ships, since there were no bases -Visited Mombasa, Kenya, during that operation -Did a show of power for the shah of Iran -Found it to be a ridiculous waste of time and resources -Started running low on supplies after a while -Drank Kool Aid without sugar, and had the same meals a few times in a row �-Resupplying at sea was difficult -Ships had to match speed then transfer supplies on a line (00:52:52) Becoming a Doctor & Enlisting in the Air Force -After the Navy, he planned on going to college -Appreciates that his wife, a college-educated nurse, married him, a high school graduate -Planned on attending Lake Superior State College, but there was no housing -He contacted Western Michigan University, and they accepted him -Used his entire GI Bill to study at WMU -Wanted to become a doctor then, but had a lot of difficulty with chemistry -Decided to pursue being a physician’s assistant -Two-year program and he would graduate with a bachelor’s degree -Applied for that program and was accepted -He found work in Cheboygan, Michigan, but wanted to pursue medical school -Michigan State University’s College of Osteopathic Medicine was looking for PAs -He needed to take a physics course to apply -Took it at Lake Superior State College and did the labs at a local high school -Had three children by now, and needed to have a way to provide for them during medical school -He got accepted into medical school, but had no way to pay for it -Joined the Air Force for its Health Professions Scholarship Program -Paid for medical school, supplies, stipend, and rent at Spartan Village -Wife and children came with him -Lived in a two-bedroom apartment -His children loved the community -Finished medical school in three years -Meant he owed the Air Force three years -Went to the Grand Rapids Osteopathic Hospital for his five years of residence -Did some drills with the Air Force, but wasn’t paid during residence -No risk of getting pulled from residency -After residency, he went to Military Indoctrination for Medical Service Officers Timecode starts over at 00:00:00, but the interview continues (00:00:03) Military Indoctrination for Medical Service Officers -Sent to Sheppard Air Force Base, Kansas, for MIMSO -Basic introduction to basic military customs -How to dress and act as a member of the armed forces -He was one of only two Vietnam War veterans -Upon graduation, they went to a fancy restaurant -Fairly uneventful (00:02:03) Stationed at Minot Air Force Base -Offered the chance to be assigned to a base in England or Germany -He declined because his children were young and he wanted to bring his dog -If he brought his dog, it would’ve had to be quarantined for six months �-Assigned to Minot Air Force Base, North Dakota -Never met more decent and friendly people than in Minot -Lived on base -Everyone there was like one big family -Watched each other’s houses when they went on vacation and stocked the fridge -He had a very busy OB/GYN practice -Delivered over 250 babies per year -Did a lot of surgeries -Didn’t have to worry about the business side of things and could focus on his trade -During his first year, he had a great mentor who taught him a lot -Minot was a Strategic Air Command base -Served as headquarters for all the nuclear missile sites in North Dakota -Had at least 10,000 – 15,000 people on the base -Stationed there when the Berlin Wall fell -Had been used to seeing B-52s constantly circling the base -They were always ready for a nuclear mission -After the Wall came down, there were no more B-52s -Good place to raise his children -Sometimes it got down to -40 degrees, but they got used to that -After three years, he appreciated the unique beauty of North Dakota (00:07:42) End of Air Force Service -He was asked to continue his enlistment, but he wanted to return to civilian life -Besides that, his latest work partner was insufferable and hostile -At the time, he didn’t know that as an officer he had to resign his commission -Only way for an officer to leave the service -Went to Grand Haven, Michigan, and started a practice there -Worked with another doctor -Eight months later, the Gulf War began -Started receiving letters that he could be called up for service -One week before the war ended, he received a letter telling him to prepare for service -Contacted the Air Force and told them he couldn’t abandon his practice -Community relied on him -Told that he could resign his commission and be out of the Air Force -Immediately decided to resign his commission -Following the resignation of his commission, he was out of the military for over a decade (00:11:39) Enlisting in the Army Reserve -In 2003, he became an OB/GYN director at Metro Hospital in Grand Rapids, Michigan -Debated that decision -Had gotten sick of being on-call with his practice, but it was a long drive -Ultimately decided to take the job -In the interim, he had some time off, and in that time, went to the Muskegon Air Show -Seeing the aircraft and his bitterness about 9/11 made him long to serve -The Army Reserve was represented at the event �-Army Reserve medical unit based out of Walker, Michigan -Two weeks later he joined the Army Reserve -Did basic Army indoctrination -It was a culture shock compared to the Air Force -More gritty -Went into the field for a week of bivouac and training -It was exciting since he’d never done anything like that before (00:15:09) Stationed at Fort Wainwright -His first mobilization was to Fort Lewis, Washington, in 2005 -When he got to Fort Lewis, he received orders for six weeks at Fort Wainwright, Alaska -He was ecstatic since he had always wanted to visit Alaska -Thoroughly enjoyed his time at Fort Wainwright and spent a lot of time fishing -Didn’t want to return to Fort Lewis, but had to do two weeks there (00:16:53) First Tour in Iraq – Stationed at Camp Bucca -Sent to Camp Bucca in southern Iraq in 2006 and near the Persian Gulf -He was an Individual Mobilization Augmentee, which meant he was assigned to a specific unit -Worked at the emergency room at Camp Bucca -Helped with detainee transfers -Got to know what life was like for the infantry -120 to 130-degree heat -Went out with a full medical pack and full body armor -Crossed the desert -Brought prisoners from Baghdad to Camp Bucca, and vice-versa -Formed up convoys at night then moved out -Had to stop at bridges to checked for IEDs -Went to Basra to load detainees on to C-130s -One time they had engine failure and had to make an emergency landing -Another time they took off from Baghdad -Started bobbing, weaving, and he saw red lights in the window -Learned afterward they were avoiding a missile lock -Another time, they started taking mortar fire -Had to circle up the convoy and take cover -The infantry perfectly defended the position -Decided then he would never be captured and executed -There weren’t too many combat casualties in need of treatment at Camp Bucca -There was a prison at Camp Bucca -Shortly after he arrived, there was a riot -Guards were authorized to use lethal force, but they refrained -Able to quell the riot without killing any of the prisoners -Treated detainees when they had medical issues -Some of them faked their complaints -Not a lot of combat operations out of Camp Bucca -His first tour lasted four months, because the Army didn’t want reservists to lose their skills �(00:27:11) Second Tour in Iraq – Stationed in Iraq -In 2008, he was deployed to Tikrit -Stationed at the old Iraqi air force academy -The place was pockmarked with bullet holes -Stayed in an old barracks with very basic accommodations -Attached to a medical unit based in Tikrit -Did sick call and assisted in surgery -Common to get rocket fire, but the insurgents were poor shots -Treated soldiers from combat operations and wounded Iraqi civilians -Felt he did a lot of good -One Iraqi was severely wounded -Had to perform a mastectomy because her breast was severely infected -A lot of civilians wounded by the cross fire -Had Iraqi interpreters and learned a lot about their culture -Had Turkish soldiers in Tikrit -Ate dinner with them once -Forbidden from going outside the base into the city -Always had to carry a weapon -He carried a 9mm pistol for self-defense -Became an annoyance after a while -Whenever he heard multiple incoming helicopters he knew there were a lot of wounded troops -Established a formula for meeting new soldiers -Opened a box of cigars, light one, and wait for people to come and ask for one -This was his way of introducing himself to the unit -Remembers after one operation they lost a few men -The soldiers gathered around, smoked cigars, and no one spoke -He was in Tikrit during the troop “surge” -Lost a lot soldiers defending Tikrit, and it was painful to hear that ISIS took the city in 2014 -Made some close, long-lasting friendships during his time in Tikrit (00:37:08) Catholic Work Overseas -Played guitar for masses at Camp Bucca every week when available -In Tikrit, he did that at least once a week if not more, and had a choir backing him -Worked closely with the Catholic chaplain in Afghanistan and travelled with him (00:38:54) Contact with Home in Iraq War -Did four months in Tikrit -During his time in Iraq, it was easier to communicate with his wife -Had email during his first tour at Camp Bucca -When he got to Tikrit, Skype was available to soldiers -Able to have video contact with his wife almost every day -Never told his wife he did a convoy until after it was done -He couldn’t talk about where he was going anyway -Enjoyed the convenience of the internet, but missed the sentimentality of the letters �(00:40:30) Civilian Life Between Deployments -Worked for Metro Hospital from 2003 – 2008 -Didn’t like driving from Grand Haven to Grand Rapids, and he didn’t want to move -Tried to start an OB/GYN program there, and they denied him that -Mercy Health wanted him to join them, and they wanted him to start his program there -He took the job offer (00:42:25) Stationed at Fort Drum -Sent to Fort Drum, New York, for four months -Located in Watertown, New York -The Army hospital was located downtown -Wife was able to visit him during that mobilization -They both saw the St. Lawrence Seaway (00:43:05) Tour in Afghanistan -Deployed to Afghanistan -Served as the command surgeon for the 865th Sustainment Command (Expeditionary) -Supplying a large area of operations -He had to go to outposts and forward operating bases to make sure they had supplies -Flew there, drove there, went with convoys, and took helicopters -More administrative work than medical work -During one flight to FOB Wolverine a group of special operations soldiers got on his helicopter -Flew low, at night, with none of the lights on -Got to FOB Wolverine without incident -Spent the night there, and left the next day -Rocket attacks in Kandahar were a daily problem -Killed a few soldiers relatively often -The alarm was a robotic, British accent that said, “Rocket attack” over and over -Eventually stopped going to the bunker -Learned that if you lived long enough to hear the alarm, you were safe -Those were the worst accommodations he ever had for an overseas tour -Shared a room with four other colonels -Had to share a bunk for a week on rotation until he got his own bunk -Travelled with a priest and met some Afghan tribal leaders -Went to a bazaar in Kandahar -Bought some nice Persian rugs for a good price -Traders were disappointed if you didn’t haggle with them -Went to one of the forward operating bases located up in the mountains -It was beautiful, and there were snow-capped peaks in the distance -When he arrived in February, it was cold and rainy -By March, it was sunny and hot -Spent four months in Afghanistan (00:50:23) Retirement from Army Reserve -Retired from the Army Reserve -Medical school and residency had contributed to his time in active duty �-Retired on November 15, 2015, at the age of 60 years old -Had 16 years of active duty -Retired with the rank of colonel (00:52:13) Reflections on Service -Part of him misses being in the military -He wouldn’t be disappointed if he was called up for service again -Always in the right branch of service at the right time of his life -In the Navy, he matured and met the love of his life -In the Air Force, he gained stability and the chance to become a doctor -In the Army, he could serve as an older man, do something useful, and formally retire -Hopes there isn’t a war that needs his service, but he would gladly go if called � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_DoublesteinG2094V Title A name given to the resource Doublestein, Gary L (Interview outline and video), 2017 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-01-17 Description An account of the resource Gary Doublestein was born on November 15, 1952, in Plainwell, Michigan. In early 1970 he enlisted in the Navy, and in June reported for basic training at Naval Training Center San Diego, California. He went to Hospital Corps School at Balboa Naval Hospital in San Diego, and was then stationed at Camp Pendleton, California. Gary stayed at Camp Pendleton for a year and was then assigned to the USS Kitty Hawk. His first cruise on the Kitty Hawk lasted from April 1972 to November 1972. In that first cruise, he witnessed combat flights into Vietnam as well as a mutiny on the ship. He returned to the United States and was stationed at Naval Air Station Miramar, California, until he rejoined the Kitty Hawk. His second cruise lasted from November 1973 to June 1974 and he was aboard ship when one of the engine rooms exploded. He left the Navy in June 1974, and enlisted in the Air Force in the late 1970s (c. 1978) to pay for medical school. He was stationed at Minot Air Force Base, North Dakota, for three years and resigned his commission in 1991. In 2003, he enlisted in the Army Reserve. He served at Fort Wainwright, Alaska, in 2005 at Camp Bucca, Iraq, in 2006 at Tikrit, Iraq, in 2008 and his final deployment was in Kandahar Province, Afghanistan. He retired from the Army Reserve on November 15, 2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Doublestein, Gary L. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American Iraq War, 2003-2011--Personal narratives, American Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American United States. Army United States. Navy Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/x-m4v application/pdf https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/01b26df368630f0e967ff152d87cbe1c.m4v 23b7a32f613640e146f3ab3dfb15dedd https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9063e84106e0150819d116dc782cb7db.pdf 242e4fc07a0b4a4a5b9f5e3ce09fd986 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veteran’s History Project World War II William Doucette Length of Interview (00:51:10) Background (00:00:35) Born in 1921; the Upper Peninsula of Michigan in the copper mining region Father worked for two dollars a day, four days a week; family of eight children Father had developed a lung condition from World War I; put in the duty of night watchman  His father kept that job until 1941 when Doucette was able to send him money to move to Chicago Doucette finished high school; went to Chicago to apply for a job  An engineering department of a company  Didn’t have a degree, but had five years of engineering and architectural experience from high school  Was sent to Brookeville, Indiana to get more practical experience  Put together caskets for an automatic sprinkling system  Stayed at a boarding house for seven dollars a week  Worked for two years at different plants and companies Was 17 at the time and hated that he had to move around so often  Would often write home saying how he wanted to return, but he didn’t have enough money to do so  “This is the age of specialization,” his father always encouraged him At the age of 19, he got into the engineering department in 1941; moved to Chicago  Made enough money to send for his father and two sisters  His sisters also got jobs �Heard about Pearl Harbor over the radio (00:04:40) During high school, was aware of the War in Europe and felt Hitler needed to be stopped Training (00:05:05) Signed up for the CMTC (Citizen’s Military Training Camp) Summer Program for 2 years  Lived in tents with the infantry at Fort Brady in Sault Sainte Marie  1st year, was 15 (had to be 16 to get in, so Doucette told them he was); hitchhiked there (took about four days)  Did a lot close-order drill; officer candidate, a four-year program, commission  Qualified in: 1918 Springfield rifle, 50 caliber machine gun (WWI vintage), 40 caliber pistol, gas mask drills (chlorine, phosgene, and mustard gas) o The camp had canisters of poisonous gas from WWI o Had to identify the gas before putting on the mask, if the mask was put on too quickly, that person would be sent back to do it again o Did this so that they knew whether or not a gas was being used, recognition; phosgene had the most innocuous smell, like freshly mown hay  Went to work at the age of 19, so Doucette was not able to finish the program Aviation Cadet Program (00:07:50) January or February, checked out the Navy, Marines, Army, as well as, the Aviation Cadet Program Aviation Cadet Program was very strict  Had to be at least 20 but younger than 25  Very strict mental and physical conditions  Needed two years of college  The requirements then changed to taking an equivalency test, which Doucette passed o Was a very slow process, had to take physical examinations o Wait a couple months later to take a mental examination o Sworn in months afterwards �Started May of ’42 (00:08:50) Went to Nashville, Tennessee for classification Then Kelly Field in San Antonio, Texas for Pre-flight  Involved a great deal of discipline; had a great deal more of close-order drill (marching in formation) than the army  For close-order drill, wore white gloves (so they had to be very precise) and carried rifles with fixed bayonets  Formal retreat parade every night with white gloves  A lot of classes: Theory of Flight, map reading, Morse Code, plane identification (by silhouette), ship identification also by silhouette (had to identify Japanese, British, German, etc. ships and planes)  Doucette did well with his classes, enjoyed it  Busy from 6AM-9PM, only an hour of down-time, didn’t get leave to go into town  10PM, lights out  A lot of classes, the instructors were mainly officers, had some civilian instructors 9 weeks of training (Pre-flight) Went into Primary Training in Hatbox Field, Muskogee, Oklahoma (00:11:47)  Flew a PT-17 (Primary Trainer No. 17), 175 Horsepower with Allison Inline Engine  Was an exhilarating feeling  Accidents did happen because some cadets panicked, a few died After Primary, went into Basic Flight Training (00:12:55)  Flew many different planes, still all single engine  All had a sliding covers, two seaters (for an instructor)  Washed-out during this time �“Check Flight” (00:13:48) Had an instructor for Theory in Flight, said they were going out for a Check Flight  Kind of like an impartial review, another instructor would attend this  Tell the pilots everything they need to do before the flight begins; did a string of aerobatics  Went into a spin (shouldn’t be below 4500 square feet), altimeters were not very accurate; did most of it by feel o Didn’t know the instructor that was evaluating him  Wasn’t aware of a problem with the spin until he pulled back in the stick; the instructor did this, as well, but then he passed out, momentarily  Pulled out of the spin without any trouble, other than that; landed and waited for the good news  Was told that his “recklessness” would get him killed and that they didn’t have enough planes to spare; basically told that he could no longer continue in the program o Felt that the instructor had been drinking (a rule in flight training: no alcohol 24 hours before a flight), and that is what contributed to his passing out Instrument Flying School (00:18:33) Was shipped out after this; went to Coffeyville, Kansas where he just hung around Stayed there for two or three weeks, heard about Instrument Flying School in Randolph Field, Texas where he applied and was accepted  Wasn’t qualified for In-flight training, but could train in a simulator  Link Trainer, basically learn how to fly by instrument (Doucette describes it in more detail in the interview) (00:19:40)  Was like a civilian job, eight hour shifts  Had Captain and Majors come in, too  Eventually became a Corporal �New Guinea and Philippines (00:22:00) Chose to go overseas, felt he wasn’t doing enough  Did a lot of survival training  Camp Kearns outside of Salt Lake City, Utah  There for about three weeks Went to Camp Stoneman in Pittsburg, California where he waited to be shipped out 4000 men in a freighter Goal was Hollandia, New Guinea in 31 days, no stops  Boring, crowded, frightening; no convoy  Was never told where they were going; the journey took so long because the Japanese controlled the Pacific  Only knew they were heading quite a ways south Arrived in New Guinea, ’44 (00:25:50) During the journey, the men seldom went on deck; there were a few storms Describes a submarine alert (00:26:50) The first thing they saw were nude native men on the beach (00:27:50) Doucette and the others stayed in tents Eventually went to Finschhafen (New Guinea) then Leyte (Philippines), around late ’44 (00:29:05) Didn’t do much, volunteered to drive trucks and jeeps, also stood guard Went to Tacloban Air Base on Leyte. One time, heard a scraping on the side of the tent and thought it may have been an intruder (Japanese were known for infiltrating Air Force Bases and camps); and readied his Thomson sub-machine gun he was standing guard with; prematurely �cocked it and blew six holes into the top of the tent, found out later that it was an animal scraping against the side (in the Philippines at this time) (00:29:55) The Japanese would infiltrate mainly for food Some of the Filipino citizens, mainly women and children, would come by the base to do laundry or receive food Went to Andorra, Philippines then Floridablanca; about 50 miles away from Manila (00:33:33) Did very little there, stopped paying him for four months; didn’t have a place to spend the money anyway When going to Manila, saw only wrecked buildings Left the Philippines from Floridablanca, didn’t know where he was being sent to (00:34:55) Being sent to a convoy; the driver was extremely reluctant to drive through the Zigzag Pass  A mountain pass, treacherous  Proceeded very slowly  A Runner informed them that the Japanese had put down a log-jam across the road  Heard sporadic gunfire, they were firing at the convoy  One infantryman who said he’d known where the Japanese were firing from, ran off  Doucette followed him  Ran into what looked like a 15 year old kid with his hands up; the infantry man shot and killed him  Doucette was aghast and asked him why he did that  Then three Filipinos came out, dragged the corpse out of the stream and began kicking his head (the Japanese were known for having gold crowned teeth); Ducett thought it was brutal � The child the infantryman had killed had been rigged with a bomb Okinawa, Japan (00:38:44) Went to Okinawa, Japan Could see and hear, from a distance, the planes (some were Kamikaze) and gunfire Had no official assignment, just kept moving Heard Roosevelt died, at this time; didn’t know who Truman was Was there when they dropped the Atomic Bomb, didn’t realize what it actually was (00:40:14) Home (00:40:40) When he heard that the Japanese had surrendered, he thought, “The war is won.”  This was in August  Rumors of “Golden Gate in 48”  Had absolutely nothing to do  Watched outdoor movies  Knew he was leaving when his name was on the list  Went onto a freighter; arrived on a DUKW (pronounced “duck,” amphibious trucks)  Left before Christmas; the trip would usually only take five days, but it took 21 for Doucette’s freighter o The ship had lost a screw in its propeller Made it to the Columbia River, finally home (00:43:30)  January 3rd: landed in Vancouver Barracks, Washington,; February 6 (1946): arrived home  Kind of a negative experience, no one there to welcome them, 2 AM � Was tested for everything (disease), Doucette felt livid that he had to be tested  Later, never picked up his medals; but got them in 1948 because of his daughter o Ducett lists the medals he received  Before coming home, he had never called; a telegram had been sent saying, “Arrived safely. Please do not contact me.” Arrived home at 1 AM, his mother answered the door and said, “I knew you would come home, so I left the Christmas tree up.” It was February 6 (00:47:40) Went back to his previous work, got into the Engineering Department, then sales Eventually became the President of the company at age 50, followed his father’s advice Feels that his time in the military was a waste of his time (00:49:35)  Feels that, if he were to do it again, he would have gone to Officer’s Candidate School instead of Aviation School Younger people now-a-days do not realize that the United States’ Army had been smaller than Switzerland’s, during the onset of the war. The Air Force was smaller than Romania’s. Doucette feels that the United States’ large productive capacity was possible because of the people back home � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Doucette, William (Interview outline and video), 2009 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Doucette, William Description An account of the resource William Doucette first began his military career in the Civilian Military Training Corps at the age of 15. Leaving after two year to find work in Chicago, Doucette eventually came back to join the Aviation Cadet Program. After making it to his Basic Flight Training, Doucette was washed out after a "check flight"during which the instructor had passed out. This eventually led Doucette to go work at an Instrument Training School, until he volunteered for overseas duty. He served as a driver and mechanic in New Guinea and the Philippines. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Air Forces Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2009-06-18 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DoucetteW Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6575618260456cbfde14061f9fc04b3d.m4v eb96c9f305c6f3ec3f31de286a7cdd41 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/76edc7d7182ae9ae6f0b29133010b121.pdf 8c2694d7617299e0936e040a6b4f185d PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Vietnam War/Cold War Interviewee’s Name: Arlen Dove Length of Interview: 55 minutes Pre-Enlistment (00:10)  Childhood (00:15) o Dove was born in El Pena, Michigan in 1949. Lived there until he joined the armed service. (00:23)  Family (00:27) o His father was a kiln burner, while his mother was a house wife. Also, grew up with two brothers and a sister. (00:35)  His early jobs (00:44) o Upon graduating from high school, he worked at Sherwin Williams for a time before being receiving a draft notice. (00:58) Enlistment/Basic Training (01:08)  Why he enlisted (01:10) o Enlisted ahead of others in about 1968 because then he could pick which career he wanted in the military which ended up being military police, whereas if he were drafted he would have been given a rifle and sent to Vietnam. (01:17)  Background (01:43) o By about this time draftees were being rushed into the armed forces to get ready to be shipped to Vietnam. (01:46)  Where he went (01:48) o Fort Knox, Kentucky basic training in January, 1969 (01:52)  Briefly describes what living conditions in their WWII barracks were like. (02:03) � While in basic training, he remembers the agonizing marching conditions he endured from January to March time frame going up and down what they called Agony and Misery hills. (02:10)  Also, mentions what marching was like in winter/muddy conditions were like. Also, describes what infiltration life-fire exercise was like being trained under experienced infantrymen who had been to Vietnam. (03:01)  The people he was with were college graduates and enlistees fresh out of high school. Was here for a period of 10 weeks after getting his shots. (03:51) o Fort Gordon, GA (04:35)  Describes what his police school training included there. (04:37)  Part of his hands-on training dealt with him working on a .45 gun. (04:45)  All his training geared towards preparing for Vietnam. Part of his 10-week training involved simulated training environments to simulate the situations they would encounter in Vietnam. (05:35)  For a short period of 20 days he went home and after this deployed to Germany. (05:55)  On his first deployment, he was stationed at a place called Pirmasens, Germany. (06:17) Active Duty (06:20)  Germany (06:22) o Dove’s deployment to Pirmasens, Germany was short-lived upon which time he was redeployed to Dahn, Germany. (06:27)  While here, Dove describes what his experience was like as a Boy Scout’s Counselor. (06:30)  During his three year stay in Germany, the country faced many race riots and also mentions that he saw a lot of beer fights where he lived. (07:25)  Dove describes what a typical day looked like as a camp couselor and what programs he helped run. Spent 32 months doing this. (08:12)  Other duties included serving in rogue patrol. (09:21) � Underwent controlled exercises in which Allied soldiers like himself had to anticipate a Soviet invasion if it occurred, practicing. Was deployed for a brief time on these lines. (09:41) o Duties on the Maginot /Siegfried Lines (09:57)   While there, he and his companions would always be finding unexploded landmines, detonators for bouncing Betties, etc. (10:10)  Describes what the old bunkers and old hospitals were like along this line were like. (10:34)  After his first tour in Germany, he left the Army in January. (11:03) After the Service (11:05) o Background (11:23)  When he got out, he hoped to be a policeman but instead became an insurance agent in 1971 and then spent some time in the National Guard in Lansing because he had not finished his service time. (11:28)  Found himself at Camp Grayling by July. (11:41) o Service time later on (11:45)  Starting in 1974, Dove served as a recruiter in the U.S. Army upon which he moved to Fort Campbell, Kentucky where he was assigned to the 101st Airborne for two years doing road duty and some special projects. (12:28)  Briefly describes what places he was deployed he liked the most. (13:14)  Stuttgart, Germany (13:20)  He was soon redeployed back to Germany, but before going trained other soldiers to be customs’ inspectors and taught them what was required of them with some law enforcement background and experience. (13:39)  While in Germany, the biggest problems he faced were black market issues and drug usage in which he used the domino effect to interrogate 113 people. (15:42)  Was doing this from 1976 to 1978 and then returned again in 1979. (16:39) �    On one encounter he was stopped in one town and asked if he had been helping prisoners to escape since often there were escape attempts made by prisoners. (18:07)  On his 2nd tour of Germany, he got married and was then transferred to the Army Guard soon after his service time in Germany. Spent 6 months doing this. (18:30)  During this time, he filed the paperwork to go full-time in the army. He worked on motor pool and supply duties in an infantry unit. Lasted about a year and then six months in the National Guard. (19:15) Fort Sill, OK (21:01)  Dove rejoined the U.S. Army in September, 1978 and made it his career. Was retrained in Fort Sill, Oklahoma. (21:03)  While here, he became the fire direction training specialist with the artillery. (21:19) Fort Stewart, GA (21:24)  Served here from February to July in an artillery unit, upon which afterwards he was reclassified back to law enforcement. (21:30)  During this time, the Army placed him where they needed him most. Was soon assigned to a MP company and then soon afterwards to a criminal prevention unit. (21:51)  Briefly describes what his living arrangements and what crime solving investigations were like. Describes this in some detail. (22:31) Grand Rapids, MI (24:05)  Was stationed here from 1980 to 1984 when he left. Describes his daily responsibilities profiling potential recruits fresh out of high school with a diploma or certificate. (24:11)  Many of these potential draftees volunteered for the service. (25:36)  Describes what sort of problems he faced as a recruiter—problems such as alcohol and drugs are included in this. (25:53) �  Fort McClellan, AL (26:53)  After spending a brief period in Grand Rapids, Michigan he was transferred to Fort McClellan, Alabama, which during WWII was the WAC training center. This is where he underwent military police corps training. Describes what the difference in Army MP and Infantry MP Training involved. (27:17)  Was here for 16 weeks of training and spent 2 years here. During year of his time here, describes what his responsibilities in road patrol were like. Afterwards, he worked in a commandant’s office as the keeper of the flags. Also, Dealt with intelligence gathering, supply distribution, and other duties taken on by a noncommissioned officer. (28:48)  Was ordered to Panama for a four month tour but before he even left his orders were cancelled. (30:46)  Instead, his commandant informed him that he was going to Korea. (30:52) Korea (31:01)  Background (31:05) o In Korea, he worked doing crime prevention. He describes what this entailed. For him to do his job he needed to know what supplies the local stores had so that he could keep a list of what supplies needed to be rationed. (31:34) o All military personnel he was with had ration cards for supplies, while some officers like him dealt with black market activities. (32:18)  Seoul, Korea in place called Yongsan (33:20) o Background (33:22)  Gives his personal impressions of the countryside surrounding the city and the city itself. (33:28)  His first night there, he stayed with an MP in a local hotel. The next morning, he went out on the town, knowing full well there was a military curfew and �ended up at a local coffee shop where he ended up spending the night there. (33:58)   Spent only 30 days here, when he got word that his wife and child were staying in the Philippines and he wanted to go see them. (35:04)  A month later, the Filipino Government demanded the seizure of his family’s supplies because his wife claimed to be a U.S. citizen even though she was also a natural Filipino with citizenship. Her situation dictated that she needed a sponsor to stay with her in the Philippines. (35:57)  Meanwhile in Korea, the President has been assassinated so the local police were running around without guns since they had been disarmed, while military personnel were the only ones allowed to carry weapons since the new president was afraid of being killed. The atmosphere afterwards stabilized and became more peaceful. (36:50) The Philippines (37:48) o Manila, The Philippines (37:53)  Heard of the news of the revolution when Corazon Aquino became President. Also mentions a party he attended. (38:08)  Describes who he met and what was discussed at a party with well-connected individuals. (38:45)  As an American soldier, recently transferred to the Philippines he witnessed the events of the revolution led against Dictator Ferdinand Marcos. (40:24)  One night, a Filipino rebel threw a grenade into a place where a Filipino soldier was supposed to have been stationed but since he wasn’t there he was not wounded. (41:40) � Shortly afterwards, another person threw a grenade near a gas tank which came close to exploding but didn’t. (42:03)  Briefly discusses, how at about this time, the number of American troops stationed in the Philippines was decreasing, and how he was there when the eruption of Mt. Pinatubo occurred. Was in the Philippines for 5 ½ months. (42:45)  Before going on to Korea, a typhoon hit in the summer city of Baguio, the Philippines. (43:rt)  Dove eventually had to be air-lifted to Clark, but during his brief stay in Baguio, he stayed at Camp John Hay which grew to a camp with over 100 families living nearby and describes in some detail. (44:07)  Asked Korea for an extension, of which he received another 15 days if he wanted them, but instead decided to go with his family instead. (44:45)  Left the Philippines after 5 ½ months even though he had recently completed his special papers to stay. The move was very hard on his kids and wife, when he was reassigned to Fort McClellan, Alabama again. (45:10) o Back to Fort McClellan, Alabama (46:05)  Checked in with the sergeant-major in the commandant’s office, however due to a conflicting situation a group of army officers wanted him at Fort, Hood, Texas where he was soon stationed next. (46:30) o Fort Hood, TX (47:32)  While here, he was in charge of the largest crime prevention unit in the military. (48:25) �  Worked with groups such as the 1st Cavalry, 2nd Armored, 89th P-Brigade and the 720-50 Brigade. (49:01)  Each year, he mentions working with different units. Gave classes, set up programs, and would conduct 8-hour house watches. (49:26)  Also, once a week he spent with his kids. (49:34)  Worked with one lady who used sign-language and would then interact with the kids. (50:25)  During his time here, Dove mentions that he was a member of the Central Texas Criminal Prevention Association in which on occasion would help out with their rodeo days. (51:22)  On one such occasion, a Texas Ranger was killed and extra MPs were brought in to handle the situation. (51:49)  Was briefly in Brady, Texas attending this man’s funeral. This Texas Ranger’s family was so impressed that they threw a party for the police force he was a part of. (53:01) After this military service (53:10) o Upon being medically retired by the army, Dove describes his career activities and how he became a chaplain and what this involved. (53:18)  Reflection (54:36) o Wraps by mentioning how his military service helped him to grow as a person, especially in the capacity he served as a chaplain to other military men. (55:20)  Interview Completed (55:47) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Dove, Arlen (Interview outline and video), 2009 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dove, Arlen Description An account of the resource Arlen Dove is a Vietnam and Cold War Era veteran who served with the Military Police Corps in the U.S. Army, in which he served in active service from 1968 to 1971. In this account, Dove discusses his pre-enlistment, enlistment and training in the U.S. and abroad. He began his active service when he enlisted training to go to Vietnam but ended up serving his first tour in Germany instead. Upon returning to the U.S. in 1971, Dove left the U.S. Army to pursue other career activities. Was soon called back to serve in the National Guard in various places around Michigan and upon his return to the regular U.S. Army which he made his career as an MP he served in Germany, Korea, the Philippines, and various military bases in the U.S. before he was declared medically retired from the military service sometime in the late 1980s. Dove concludes by sharing some of his thoughts about his time in the service and how his time there led him to pursue a career as a chaplain. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American Other veterans & civilians--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2009-05-27 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DoveA Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8def8fed4e9af74b8373b32de46c8138.pdf 8b9780eafe48615581ea38e7c885b727 PDF Text Text Isabel Dowell Did you move off campus suddenly due to COVID-19? What was that experience like, what kind of help did you have? Do you still have personal belongings on campus? I am lucky that I live in an off-campus apartment. I am able to stay in my current apartment with all my belongings and was not asked to leave to my permanent residence. How are your online classes going? What kinds of messages have you received from professors? How are other students handling the changes? How are you handling it? Online classes are going ok. I feel as though I am not learning in the same way that I once was. Even the information I am learning seems more temporary this way, like its only purpose is to learn it, be tested on it, and move on. I have never had issues with online courses before and have learned a lot from previous ones, but it’s very obvious that some classes are better online while others should only meet in person. I think this is a common opinion and have heard it from other peers. The circumstances in the world around us also play a big distraction to my everyday life at the moment. I have received some encouraging messages from professors, some seem to understand that this time is very stressful for anyone and have been more than accommodating. Other professors are still trying to “push us” to be our best selves, which I personally believe is not the best strategy at this time. Like I have mentioned, there is a lot going on and some individuals don’t have access to the same resources that they once used to. To just assume we are all doing okay and should continue to work as hard as possible isn’t very courteous. Overall, I am handling online classes as well I possibly can. At this point I am more excited for this semester to end than ever before. I feel like I need a reset on life and be able to worry about the current state of the world and the health of my friends and family, versus my exams. Are you involved in student organizations, sports or clubs? How has COVID-19 and campus response affected those? I am not currently involved in any student organizations, sports, or clubs. What is happening in your daily life at home? How are your parents/friends/partners/etc. doing? Do/did you have a job on or off campus? What kind of work did you do, and how has that been affected by COVID-19, lock-downs, and quarantine? My daily life at home is pretty boring. I usually spend my day by waking up, doing homework, taking my dog for a walk, eating three meals a day, catching up on movies and TV shows, and repeat day in and day out. My family back home is doing fine, they are all healthy and have a similar routine to mine. I had a job on campus. I worked at the Facilities Services building as a customer service representative. As of March 16, I was let go from that job until it was safe to go back. They offered me a cleaning position – wiping down tables, door handles, etc. – but as of March 24, when the quarantine started, I was let go from that as well. I was given an assistance grant from the university which has helped a lot and reduced a great amount of stress. Are you or anyone you know sick? What symptoms, response from medical personnel? Getting COVID testing? I do not know anyone that is sick. Do you work in healthcare? What are your experiences? Have you had problems getting access to PPE? How are your working conditions? I do not work in health care. �How has your experience getting everyday items like groceries and household goods (cleaning supplies, paper goods, etc.) been? Have there been shortages? I haven’t had many issues finding everyday items. I did experience the toilet paper shortage but was lucky enough to grab one of the last packs. It’s a little scary and can be worry some, especially as I am the only one providing for myself. If a store doesn’t have toilet paper I either have to wander around various stores until I find something or hope my roommates have enough to share until I can get my own. In a way it’s almost forced me to panic buy, if I don’t buy it now in a large amount it might not be there when I run out. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource COVID-19 Journals Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. University Libraries Description An account of the resource This collection of journals and personal narratives was solicited from the GVSU community by archivists of the University Libraries during the events of the 2020 COVID-19 global pandemic. During this unprecedented crisis the university closed suddenly, following federal and state guidelines of social distancing to reduce the spread of the novel coronavirus. The university closed its campuses on March 12, 2020, and quickly moved students out of campus housing. Faculty swiftly transitioned to fully-online teaching for the remainder of the Winter 2020 semester, and all campus events, including commencement, were cancelled. The purpose of the COVID-19 Journaling Project was to document the individual and personal experiences of GVSU’s students, staff, faculty, and the wider community during this time of international crisis. Some project participants were university student employees who were compensated for their journaling. Other participants were granted stipends or extra credit for submitting entries to the archives. Still others participated without any compensation or credit. The University Archives remains grateful to all who submitted journals, for helping us to understand the impact of this crisis on our community. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2020 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived University Archives. COVID-19 Journaling Project Subject The topic of the resource Epidemics Grand Valley State University College students Personal narratives COVID-19 pandemic, 2019-2020 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource COVID-19 Responses Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dowell, Isabel Description An account of the resource Journal of GVSU student Isabel Dowell's experiences during the COVID-19 pandemic. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2020-04-20 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived University Archives. COVID-19 Journaling Project Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Epidemics COVID-19 pandemic, 2019-2020 Grand Valley State University College students Personal narratives Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University University Libraries. Special Collections and University Archives. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context COVID-19_2020-04-20_DowellIsabel Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c2897a75cd31ab8ecd308ef3867df5b3.mp4 3f3657dfeed9afa38fb826176a7a39ea https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5549389bc97b38e47ba975a062a606cc.pdf 0df4f78460413454d2ca380352a6f4f5 PDF Text Text William James College Interviews GV016-16 Interviewer: Barbara Roos Interviewee: Jean Doyle Date: 1984 Part: 1 of 3 [Barbara] Okay, Jean. Why on earth did you come to William James? [Jean] Is this the real thing? Are we starting? [Barbara] Yeah. [Jean] Okay. [Sighs heavily] I grew up in Chicago and when I was about twelve, I met a deaf kid. Through meeting him and wanting to communicate with him, I thought I invented the theory of art therapy. [Laughs] And I thought how wonderful it would be if by painting, or reading, or writing poetry, or something that this kid could express or relate to other people what he was experiencing from nature. And so that just became a goal and I call it art therapy in my head, even as a kid. And I just started looking for places that offered coursework in art therapy. A counselor at a high school in Chicago, she wasn't my counselor, it wasn't my high school, she told me about William James. So, my mom and I took a drive up here and we looked at it. I didn't really know what I was looking at or looking for. And I said: "Well, this must be it, you know, this must be where I meant to be." So, in September I started. And, it was, well-- Are we going to get to frustrations right away? [Barbara] Whatever makes you feel most comfortable. [Jean] Okay. It was so strange because once… as soon as I got there, I immediately realized I'd been given misinformation, which I translated to as I was lied to. Because in the in the catalog, you know, it talked about Thomas Jefferson, College IV, William James, and CAS. And when I got there, Thomas Jefferson had just been axed. And there was just no words about it. But I didn’t know enough to get angry yet. That came in time. But I met a lot of people who had been part of Thomas Jefferson and became more acquainted with their frustration and their anger. But we progressed, and then at the end of the first year that I was there Cathleen O'Shaughnessy (?) left. She was a key art therapy person at that time. And she was gone, and that was it. And so, I'll never really understand why I just didn't say: "Well the hell with this. I'm out of here. You know, I came in for something; it's not here. What am I doing here?" But I never left. I just, I don't know, there was something about the community of the place, the friends I was making, and the rapport with professors. That I really felt it was worth sticking around, it was worth waiting, and knowing in my heart someday I �would be an art therapist and I would work in art therapy. But for the present time, I had other things to learn, I had an education to get, and I felt like I was in a good place to get it. Working with good people and that became a priority to me and of great value. [Jean] My father, at the home front, he was questioning greatly what the hell I was doing there when it came out that there wasn't what I was seeking there, and there wasn't, you know, any hope of things getting better in terms of a career-oriented thing. He respected that aspect of liberal education. But he felt that if I just wanted a liberal education that I should continue St. John's, which is where I started my undergrad work. He felt that it would be more sensible to go to a prestigious college, and to have a nice degree at the end of it; especially, if I was going to get something as general as liberal arts. And, as you know, easy to pass off. Or, you know what I mean, people don't really just say: "Oh what are you going to do with that degree?" You know? So, there was a lot of tension there, but I just stuck it out. A sense of loyalty, a sense of connection, and commitment that was felt around me, and so I just want to desert that whole front. [Barbara] Do you know, something that hasn't really come up in the tapes so far is the notion of how new organization happened so many times effected students, and you're talking about it. Do you know people that left school because of reorganization? [Jean] I know one artist in particular that comes to mind. His name was Chris Molane. (?) He's living in New York, and he's doing his work. And he's very happy. I mean, for him actually, the reorganization is a good thing, it released him from the cornfields out to them where things are really happening for him. I'm trying to think who else. Not really, it seemed like people just sort of went, you know, they didn't just accept it but they went through it, and came out the other side to see what was there. [Inaudible] [Jean] Like going through some kind of mill. [Barbara] Please tell me a little bit about Saint Johns. [Jean] Saint Johns was the most beautiful place I ever was at. It was tucked in the mountains in Santa Fe, New Mexico. And it was a drug infested, sexually active, monastery dedicated to learning and loving knowledge. And Socrates was the hero of the school. At four o'clock in the morning, the dorms were really small, about twenty people per dorm. And you could walk in four in the morning and there would be people drunk, or whatever, but they'd be discussing something of common interest. And what's so neat is that it's a very rigid curriculum in terms of all freshmen read Aeschylus, Euripides, Thucydides, and on and on. And they do Euclidean geometry, and then non-Euclidean geometry, and the next year is �Ptolemian, it goes on and so everybody just had the exact same education. So, there's so much to share. And the tutors were more like referees. Or when they would start a seminar, it was like they'd throw up a jump ball and we'd play. [Jean] So, they weren't projecting, or interjecting very much. And in a way, it wasn't until I met Irving Wasserman at Grand Valley that I really was more studied with Socrates and really tried to understand-- just have a broader view, a much broader view, because it was like children playing with these thoughts. And so, we had no background, no framework, to put it in and so, I appreciated having a guide like Irv. But it was wonderful to be given the respect to play with it, you know. Or to engage with it. [Barbara] Okay, but then just the notion of you wanting to go into Art Therapy was enough to tear you away from this? [Jean] I was also in the midst of very strong personal problem that I had to get away from immediately. And so, I had to leave hastily unfortunately. So, when I got home and it was hiding out for a while, I thought: "Well, I think I'll go up to Michigan and check out William James. [Barbara] Okay. Okay. [Jean] Take that path and then maybe go hit… [Barbara] Why alternative anyway though? You had two alternative colleges you were looking for, and why? [Jean] Oh, that's just always been my cup of tea. I originally began my education in straight Catholic schools. And they were fine for me, to an extent. It was sort of like getting a lot of A's and everything for not doing any work. And when I hit about seventh grade, I was with this real tough group. And, you know, standing in the parking lot smoking cigarettes with jackets open in January type of fun and entertainment, really ridiculous. And my mother began to become very concerned about me when I stole her car and went driving around. And so, she knew, in her wisdom, that she couldn't reach me, and she can talk to me. So, she sent me to my sister Barbara, who's twelve years older than me, and who I've always had a very strong affinity with. I stayed there for a month. When I came home my mother said: "Well, Jeanie guess what? There's this wonderful school. It's called Morgan Park Academy. The classes have only like sixteen people in them. And you get to work at your own rate, and it's in the city, and it's real integrated." And I'm like: "Wow, Mom. That sounds real cool. Someday maybe, you know, I'll check it out. She's like: "Well you have your entrance exam Wednesday." And I was like: "Oh..." So anyway, I got into this school and it turned out there was like these real rich, snotty kids there. And I was just like: �"Oh jeez, I don't need this." One day… the first day of school someone asked me what did my father do for a living, and how much money did he make. And I told her that my father was an alcoholic, and we were on welfare. [Jean] Which was absolutely the untruth. But I just like a little bitch. I'm not going to tell her the truth. It's none of her business. But anyway, I got into the faculty there, and I realized what I could learn there. And I realized that I didn't need, oh, just to be told what to do, that learning itself was an incentive enough for me. And that I just couldn't stand, you know, all this worrying about tests, and what did you get on the test and… you know, what do you have to know for the test. That whole attitude… whenever I came across that it just, you know, put my back up. and I was like get me out of here. At that school, I was allowed to get away from that. And at St. John's, there certainly wasn't at all an issue, I didn't even know they gave grades until later. I found out that I did rather well. But, you know, I just didn't need traditional structured education. [Barbara] Do think that's because you got too much of it? Or for other reasons.? [Jean] No, I think it's just the way I'm made. Just me. [Laughter] [Barbara] I went to a school founded by John Dewey, who was a student of James's. And when it hits you, when you hit one school like that it spoils you for anything else. [Jean] Yeah, and it's not spoiled. Well, I mean it's… you don't want to go back. [Barbara] Yeah. [Jean] You don't need it. [Barbara] You become very cynical about traditional education is another way to put it. [Jean] Yes, it's true. [Barbara] Okay, you talk about major frustration. Are there other frustrations you would like to talk about? [Jean] Yeah, I think one is a real general frustration. It's sort of like, I feel in the course of my life I've come at the end of every great wave that I have wanted to be a part of desperately. And it's like I'm, you know, trying to body surf. And it goes right over me, and I'm back there, and then it crashes on the beach, and it's pulled back in, and then I'm just waiting for the next wave or something. When I was six my sister, Barbara again, you know, she was in college. It was nineteen sixty-seven. She was sitting in the rain for her black roommates and, you know, it was all very powerful to me. It really stuck with me. And I thought that's what we �do in college. When I got there, I was all psyched for it, and then I grew up in things where the seventies… [Jean] Where nobody wanted to commit to anything, and everything was the blank generation. and it was a denial of everything that happened in sixties, it seem to me. And so, at that time I think I sort of espoused hippie virtues, you know, or tried to. I made myself and was forced into the position of being a dinosaur. Of being, you know, like this extinct being. Yet walking along the living, but not wanting to be part of what they were doing. And not wanting to fit in, and not wanting to espouse those principles. Because I didn't see any principles in them. So, it was pretty rough. But by the time I got to college, I realized the sixties are gone. Life has changed a lot. There's no hippies anymore, the hippies who are here are clinging to the past. This is a new time, and we need a new kind of people to deal with, you know, the sixties plus the seventies, and now the eighties. You know it's a new world. And one of my frustrations at William James was being considered a hippie even though I wasn't. You know, and you get a lot of flak. But that didn't really bother me, I can sort of laugh that off. [Barbara] What kind of flak? Or you really don't know? [Jean] A lot of times… when you're talking to CAS people. And I hate doing the camp business, you know, I mean our side and their side of the river or whatever. But people want to take it seriously. I mean from the point of a guy not asking you out on a date because you are William James student, to in a conversation…you're just not being taken seriously because you're considered a radical. Even though I'm very… I consider myself conservative liberal. You know, I'm not into radical changes. I'm into reasonable discussion of what's going on and then see what can be done. But not just changing for change's sake. I'm not radical politically, and I'm not a hippie, and I'm not living in the past. And a lot of times… it's hard for me to be specific right now, my mind is not really on it… clearly enough to come up with specific examples of times I felt put down, or rejected for having… [Barbara] The out of tape line is blinking at me, so it's going to stop in a second. So, it’s a good time to just wait anyway. [Jean] Okay. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource William James College Interviews Description An account of the resource Videotaped interviews of William James College faculty, students and administrators by Barbara Roos. William James College opened in 1971 as the third baccalaureate degree granting college for Grand Valley. It was originally designed to be an interdisciplinary, non-departmentalized college consisting of concentration programs, rather than majors. Curriculum was organized around three concentrations that were meant to be interdisciplinary career preparation offerings: Social Relations, Administration and Information Management, and Environmental Studies. The college was discontinued in 1983 during a reorganization of Grand Valley. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1984 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/69">William James College faculty and student interviews (GV016-16)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Universities and colleges Oral histories Alternative education Interdisciplinary approach in education Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Roos, Barbara (Interviewer) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV016-16 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Language A language of the resource eng Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV016-16_GVSU_06_Doyle Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Doyle, Jean Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1984 Title A name given to the resource Jean Doyle interview (1 of 3, video and transcript) Description An account of the resource Interview with Jean Doyle by Barbara Roos, documenting the history of Grand Valley State's William James College. William James College was the third baccalaureate degree granting college for Grand Valley. It was originally designed to be an interdisciplinary, non-departmentalized college consisting of concentration programs, rather than majors. The college opened in 1971 and was discontinued in 1983 during a reorganization of Grand Valley State. Jean Doyle was a student at William James College and a graduate from Grand Valley's class of 1984. In this interview, Jean discusses the journey that brought her to William James College from her hometown of Chicago, Illinois and how she felt a calling toward alternative education to study Art Therapy. This interview is part 1 of 3 for Jean Doyle. Please note: this interview contains the audio recording in place of the video recording. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Roos, Barbara (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Universities and colleges Oral histories Alternative education Art therapy Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/69">William James College faculty and student interviews (GV016-16)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8ee39a5b5414d9b1d03c17830572ef79.mp4 3a0edb7fa219c3623c7a772bb7e4894c https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d74c2ceee996f1cec1384a19e37b7f1b.pdf 601c8e0df1c3bbdf4c60d5bac40065db PDF Text Text William James College Interviews GV016-16 Interviewer: Barbara Roos Interviewee: Jean Doyle Date: 1984 Part: 2 of 3 [Jean] Okay, remember… I believe it was my first year there, and I just met and fell in love with Claire Porter and Sally Labheart (?) I was finding so much strength and joy in the dance department. I was so happy. Dance was my, you know, it was just my thing. It was where I'd go and be away from everything, and just have what I needed, and wanted. I was learning a lot and it was great for my body. I felt real good. Then all of a sudden, I hear: Tom, Sally, Claire. All the people I thought were the highest of the high were being pink slipped, fired, let go! That the Performing Arts Center as a body was being annihilated. I just freaked out. I just I could not believe it. I thought: "Now this is the one thing that I found so far that's outstanding on this campus, that is excellent. Why is the administration, or whoever is responsible for this decision, afraid of excellence? Why are they striving towards mediocrity? What is it that they're afraid of?" And so, they left, and before it was finally finalized, we're going to have sitting around the library. And I thought well this is it, finally. My first sit in, and I'm so excited. We made posters and the day of the sit in it rained. About three or four people showed up, and it was just a real discouraging. PAC just sort of fizzled out, and it was gone. Those fine people left that campus and I still had room one twenty-one where the dance studio was is my retreat, and my sacred space. But you know, I didn't have the golden teachers to bring me to higher things. You know, everything I did had to come from inside myself. Christine is a very good teacher and a very good friend, but she was sick a lot. She just was really involved with a lot of things going on with herself. You just can't have one teacher and who can teach you everything. Because they, you know, she's… her expertise is in a certain kind of modern dance, and there's many kinds modern of dance. There's many kinds of, you know, everything that really need to be dealt with [inaudible]… [Jean] … would leave the profession because they can't make a decent living at it, you know. Tell you… that was excellence. [Barbara] So, why don't talk about the closing of James. [Jean] Okay, that was significant to me and number ways. I really love Barry, Robert, and Steven for the help they gave the students to deal with it. They spoke to us about different languages and that we couldn't just express our needs and our interest in terms of that we were familiar and comfortable in talking with and have that mean anything on an administrative level. That we had to take our terms and translate them into terms that would be understandable and acceptable. When �Stephen and Robert were advocating for this college at those meetings, I just felt like it was a new spirit of seventy-six where you know they were like Thomas Jefferson or something. Fighting for a new nation or a new state that ought to exist, that deserve to exist in its own right. That they were being very reasonable about it. [Jean] That they were passionate but dispassionate at the same time about it and they were at those meetings and they had their thoughts together and they had them organize and they had them put out in a way it could be understood by anyone, in any terms. It still didn't do any good. [Barbara] What meetings were these? [Jean] They were reorganization meetings, I think. They were going on in Zumberge Hall. It was like the year or so before the final verdict came down that we were closed. Do you remember those? [Barbara] Kind of. It all blurs for me. [Inaudible] Blurs. So, what you remember is, you know… [Jane] Yeah, it was, I believe it was there that they'd would, you know. They'd have to cancel class here and there even because the meetings were not arranged for convenience. They would go and come back. They'd look very tired and worn. But I know that they gave it their very best shot you know. [Barbara] But then you were talking about when the closure actually came. [Jean] Well, the closure came with no closure. I guess William James being place a where process was something that was espoused, was appreciated, was reveled in, was maybe drawn out too long, and every decision that was ever made there as a group took so much to do, but it was always worth it. When the closure came its sort of like there was no closure, there was no finishing, and it just sort of dissipated and that was very distressful to me. I really missed that. We had a William James (our last synoptic that while we were still in college) and it was one where a lot of alumni were invited. And Adrian came and I'll never forget she read this poem and I have a copy of it now. It's called "To Be of Use." It's beautiful a poem about, you know, what is the meaning of life? It's to be useful, and to put yourself into a task fully. There's a lot of other alumni who came back and talked about what they felt about the school and what the entire experience it meant to them. And that was the birth to the William James Association from that meeting. And so that was April when we had that synoptic discussion. Then in May, at the end of school, it was last week of classes. There was this meeting of the William James Association the first meeting and I almost cried when I was there because there had been two or three hundred students. And of those two �or three hundred students of the present time, myself, Linda Rogers, Henry Hardy, Mark Zepatowski (?), Ralph, you know there was just a handful of us there. It sort of seem like everybody just went "Well it's over. Okay, onto something else." You know, and that it didn't mean anything to them. [Jean] It probably did, but just at that moment it felt like: "Where are you people? What is your experience here? Where are you coming from?" And there was a lot of alumni there, and people who had really cared, but I think the rest of my fellow students were burnt out from all the haggling and fighting for the right to exist. We just sort of had reached a point of exhaustion and apathy where they just said: "You know, oh well. What are we fighting for? Let's stop fighting, let's go home." So that's, I think, where that boils down to. It was real disappointing and real anti-climactic. [Barbara] What was the funeral like? [Jean] The funeral was a statement made… Mark Zapatowski and his unique way conceived the idea of a film to document this whole experience. Which I really appreciated because it felt like there was someone in fact, a group of people, the [inaudible] who cared. [Barbara] I changed the shot, so you kind of just pick it up. [Jean] Okay. Anyway, Mark had conceived the idea of the system documenting what it happened through the whole devolution of Grand Valley State Colleges. And so, we got all of us together for this one shot. This one idea he had. No actually this is the original idea, and then it evolved into the starch blob (?) the whole documentation. But this is just a commemoration of the death of Thomas Jefferson College, which was the first of the murders on the campus. We all became very… using words like that. Like murder, assassination, annihilation--as if it were human bodies being knocked off because it was sort of death that was happening all around us all the time. And we were just… felt real wounded and so the funeral happened on a summer day. We had a huge box just full of costumes, and musical instruments. We were at the farmhouse, and we got all dressed up and we drove over to Grand Valley. We went to the Lake Huron Hall, which is where Thomas Jefferson used to be, and someone was filming from the balcony and someone from the street. We came around, and this procession formed, oh there was everyone there. There were monks, the barbarian, the sprites. It was a wonderful long procession of different spirits and characters. It was just… do you want me to tell you about the film not being there? [Laughter] [Barbara] [Inaudible] [Jean] The funeral was to sort of… trying to bring some closure to that very [inaudible]. �Nothing was said. There was no announcement made. It just became realities that suddenly this college didn't exist. And then they were doing it to William James, and that was in the works. [Jean] I think that's why Mark got the idea to it to make something about the finishing off of Thomas Jefferson College because nothing had been said. It just ceased to be, and we were realizing that we were in the process of having our school ceased to be. And it was a scary time, and so we wanted to say something. We wanted to point something out to thin air, if nothing else, you know. [Barbara] Do you see that commune, that was historically active closing James, had anything to do with the closing of James? [Jean] Actually, it could. Now, historically it was kind of concurrent. There were several incidences where people from this group, and also with SRX. Where they got silly and wrecked some stuff. And that can't be tolerated, on any form. I mean destruction of property is bad behavior. And writing things on the wall about people who look at it every day, it's not an intelligent move. It was real politically incorrect of them. I'm sure it was innocent; it was naïve, too. I mean they weren't realizing the implications they felt at that moment; that we were eternal and there was nothing that was going to hurt us. So, they could say what they want, and express their anger, and destroy things that belonged to people that, you know, they would like to spit upon. So, they did foolish things in that sort of young silly way. I think some of those things just was like: "Well look at these people!" You know, got generalized everyone. And academics were no longer looked at, and it was just that we were an undesirable element then. A bunch of destructive of brats or something. So, I would imagine it had something to do with the beginning of the process that eventually closed the school. I wouldn't be surprised. It's because it was sort of around the same time. So, I really don't know. Yeah, there was so much tension then. There was so much tension. Always fighting, and… there's a good, I mean, we were all politically aware and active, and we cared. Somehow things got taken too far, and the political activity just turned to destructive behavior. It was no longer political it was tantruming. [Barbara] That's an interesting answer. It hadn't been what I was expecting you to say, because I wasn't talking about trashing. I mean did you guys just go on and live communally? Oops, we're going to run out of tape. Live communally as a... � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource William James College Interviews Description An account of the resource Videotaped interviews of William James College faculty, students and administrators by Barbara Roos. William James College opened in 1971 as the third baccalaureate degree granting college for Grand Valley. It was originally designed to be an interdisciplinary, non-departmentalized college consisting of concentration programs, rather than majors. Curriculum was organized around three concentrations that were meant to be interdisciplinary career preparation offerings: Social Relations, Administration and Information Management, and Environmental Studies. The college was discontinued in 1983 during a reorganization of Grand Valley. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1984 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/69">William James College faculty and student interviews (GV016-16)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Universities and colleges Oral histories Alternative education Interdisciplinary approach in education Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Roos, Barbara (Interviewer) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV016-16 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Language A language of the resource eng Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV016-16_GVSU_07_Doyle Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Doyle, Jean Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1984 Title A name given to the resource Jean Doyle interview (2 of 3, video and transcript) Description An account of the resource Interview with Jean Doyle by Barbara Roos, documenting the history of Grand Valley State's William James College. William James College was the third baccalaureate degree granting college for Grand Valley. It was originally designed to be an interdisciplinary, non-departmentalized college consisting of concentration programs, rather than majors. The college opened in 1971 and was discontinued in 1983 during a reorganization of Grand Valley State. Jean Doyle was a student at William James College and a graduate from Grand Valley's class of 1984. In this interview, Jean discusses her experience with the closing of William James College, the final WJ Association meeting, and the "funeral" that took place outside Lake Huron Hall regarding the closing of Thomas Jefferson College and William James College. This interview is part 2 of 3 for Jean Doyle. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Roos, Barbara (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Universities and colleges Oral histories Alternative education Dance Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/69">William James College faculty and student interviews (GV016-16)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/414504e8b2b1a25b691357ee031bcde1.mp4 8b50623872c79a6ed0b59347afe9af58 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/dff76c9144326b8e832dadb1fcaecbcb.pdf a48043e603338a344b6690f614f4e555 PDF Text Text William James College Interviews GV016-16 Interviewer: Barbara Roos Interviewee: Jean Doyle Date: 1984 Part: 3 of 3 [Barbara] Could you think for a minute, if you had to sum up William James education-What's unique about it? In just a sentence. [Jean] One sentence?! [Barbara] Well, two. [Jean] I think the unique… one of the most unique features of William James education is that it was learning as a group project. And that I never heard from any teacher there that: "I have the information, I'm going to put it in your head." I heard from every teacher: "This is subject I really turned on about and if you're have turned on about it right now, I hope by the end of this experience you will be. And let's go!" And that was sort of an adventure spirit that I loved. I felt respected, like my mind was being respected. That I had a place to express my thoughts, think my thoughts, and find out what my thoughts were. And that's more than one sentence. But I think that's a unique feature generally. [Barbara] Actually that was more than one sentence… it's more than one thought. But that's okay. [Inaudible] Okay, I am through with my questions. [Jean] Okay. [Barbara] What do you want to say? [Jean] I really love the people that I met at William James. I think that's a large part of why didn't leave. Robert Mayberry is an incredible teacher. Ros is incredible. I tended to repeat their classes over and over. I mean, or you know, take their different classes because I was just so, you know, just so loving them. And Steven gave me so much. I can't… I wish I could think of how to describe it. Barry, sitting in seminar with him and there was almost a religious sentiment about it. The learning was so important. We were discussing in this one seminar on school and society things that were so important to us in that room. There was only four people in the seminar and it was rich, and it was good. There's just been times and conversation with people that, you know, you just bring them with you for the rest of your life. I loved William James College. I loved the coffee machine in the morning and going there and meeting with all those people who are so good. I can't talk right now. �[Barbara] Okay. Let me turn it off. [Jean] It's hard to… [Barbara] White balance again. [Crinkling paper] [Barbara] It's warming up. Come on thing, do it! [Barbara] First black people felt very close and why that had anything to do with education at all [?]. [Jean] I'm not exactly sure why people felt close there. I know they were feeling close when I got there, so I felt safe to open myself and to feel close to them. And it felt real good and it felt really different from attitudes that I had seen. And I was sort of developing this theory about the nuclear fear, the fear of nuclear holocaust, infecting people's minds to the point where they are driving their life like a car down the road. And they are isolated from other cars on the road, and they're going to this destination. They don't care how they get there, or why they're even going, but they have this point and they're going there, and the hell with everyone else. And at William James it was like we were in a big bus, and we were all going somewhere together. And it mattered where we were going, but it didn't matter how long it took because we were having a good time as we are going. So, we were happy. There was a family feeling and that did within the classroom allow, I think, for more freedom of speech. That you weren't so afraid of speaking your mind or of trying out a new idea because you knew beyond, you know, maybe this intellectual point there was something else you shared with these people. And you weren't going to be disregarded or heated or rejected from the whole group for expressing a weird thought. Now, as far as why community is important in education, I believe that it's because if you sit at home alone and read a book. And it could be a wonderful book, and mean a lot to you. And be doing all kinds of things inside of you to be taking this in, and that's fine. But if you have a book, and you have twenty copies of that book, and everybody's read that book, and everybody has their own view of it. And everybody's view is respected of it, when you bring everyone together to discuss it, there is something about the collectivity of the minds meeting and working together that I believe will open to wider vision. And the Jamesian sense of why we are here to share perspectives. Because having a community in which you feel safe to express yourself is so important if you're going to really do that Jamesian approach to learning, of having people's view of the whole coming together to make a larger vision. And that really seem to have hit William James. It happened for me and I learned a lot from my contemporaries and teachers and I believe we learned it in that way… by turning on each other's minds. And that you know people who are kind of dragging their feet got caught up in it, and it was contagious. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource William James College Interviews Description An account of the resource Videotaped interviews of William James College faculty, students and administrators by Barbara Roos. William James College opened in 1971 as the third baccalaureate degree granting college for Grand Valley. It was originally designed to be an interdisciplinary, non-departmentalized college consisting of concentration programs, rather than majors. Curriculum was organized around three concentrations that were meant to be interdisciplinary career preparation offerings: Social Relations, Administration and Information Management, and Environmental Studies. The college was discontinued in 1983 during a reorganization of Grand Valley. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1984 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/69">William James College faculty and student interviews (GV016-16)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Universities and colleges Oral histories Alternative education Interdisciplinary approach in education Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Roos, Barbara (Interviewer) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV016-16 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Language A language of the resource eng Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV016-16_GVSU_08_Doyle Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Doyle, Jean Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1984 Title A name given to the resource Jean Doyle interview (3 of 3, video and transcript) Description An account of the resource Interview with Jean Doyle by Barbara Roos, documenting the history of Grand Valley State's William James College. William James College was the third baccalaureate degree granting college for Grand Valley. It was originally designed to be an interdisciplinary, non-departmentalized college consisting of concentration programs, rather than majors. The college opened in 1971 and was discontinued in 1983 during a reorganization of Grand Valley State. Jean Doyle was a student at William James College and a graduate from Grand Valley's class of 1984. In this interview, Jean discusses her overall thoughts on the William James education, in addition to her love of its community and adventurous spirit. This interview is part 3 of 3 for Jean Doyle. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Roos, Barbara (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Universities and colleges Oral histories Alternative education Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/69">William James College faculty and student interviews (GV016-16)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3e71c310a43dd284b673f5344f70a591.mp4 9face28aa0326467b6877adcbc8236eb https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/690f375bf7333a45156f467964b5f284.pdf cab48289e5aee0022c25b9d3491944b8 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Mildred Jane Doyle Interviewer: Frank Boring Transcribed by Emilee G. Johnson, Western Michigan University Length: 57:00 Interview begins at 3:05 Frank Boring: Let’s begin with your name and where and when you were born. Mildred Jane Doyle: Well, my name is Jane, Mildred Jane, but I go by Jane, Doyle. My maiden name is Baessler. I was born in Grand Rapids. 1921, October 1921. Frank Boring: 1921? What was your early schooling like here in Grand Rapids? Mildred Jane Doyle: I went to what was then Lafayette School, it’s now Vandenberg Academy of Arts, I think. I went to grade school there and then I went to South High School in the 7th grade and graduated from South High School in ’39. And then I went to what was then Grand Rapids Junior College in 1940 and University of Michigan 1941 to ’43. Frank Boring: Now, at that time, as a girl, 4:05 how did you figure out that you were going to go to college, I mean, a lot of girls were either going to be married or else they’re going to be a teacher, or a nurse or something, what was the—how did you decide that you were going to go in to college? Mildred Jane Doyle: My parents, from the time I can remember, said that we were going to go to college because they never had. My mother went through the 6th grade and my father came from Germany and he went to correspondence school after he got to this country, and worked for the railroad and they both wanted us to, there were 4 of us, and they wanted us to have a good education. Frank Boring: So education was part of your whole [garbled] Mildred Jane Doyle: It was very important. Frank Boring: That’s wonderful. Did you know what you wanted to do when you went to school? Mildred Jane Doyle: No. Frank Boring: So they pretty much picked it out for you? �Mildred Jane Doyle: Well, my brother was an architect, and he went to the University of Michigan and I always admired my brother so much that I thought, that’s what I want to do. So I went there and went into interior design. 5:05 Frank Boring: Ok. All right. Now, you’re in college, studying interior design, but the war is brewing out there. Were you aware of what was going on in Germany and Japan during that period? Mildred Jane Doyle: Well, I was because in Junior College, I was talking engineering drawing at that time, so I could transfer to U of M, and the professor, or, the instructor in engineering class came in and told the class, which was all boys, I was the only girl in the class, that there was going to be a summer program to train pilots. See, that was 1939. And the war was already brewing in Europe, and so the United States, well the Air Force decided that they needed more pilots and so they started the civilian pilot training program. Frank Boring: Was this Army Air Corps? Mildred Jane Doyle: It was Army Air Corps at that time. Frank Boring: Cause we didn’t have an Air Force at that time. [garbled] 6:05 So you’re the one girl in all this class of guys, ok, and they’re offering this pilots thing, was there any reaction to you volunteering to get involved in, did they think you were nuts or something? Mildred Jane Doyle: I don’t know what they thought, I didn’t care, I wanted to do it. Frank Boring: Good for you! Mildred Jane Doyle: So I thought, oh this sounds great, I want to do this. Frank Boring: So what was the process of actually signing up for this thing? Mildred Jane Doyle: Well I had to go through the physical and when they first started the program, they said women had to be 5’4’’, the same height as men. And so I thought, well that lets me out, but I thought, “Maybe I can stretch 2 inches!” [laughs] So I tried to stretch and everything, but then they lowered it to 5’2 1/2’’, so I just got it. Frank Boring: Just got in. Yeah, my mom is 5’ 2’’ actually, so… [laughs] Mildred Jane Doyle: So I had to take the physical and then we had ground school training, and went out there, and we were split into three classes at the airport. 7:05 Frank Boring: Now, you’re still in school? �Mildred Jane Doyle: I was in junior college. It was the summer, summer of 1940. Frank Boring: Ok! So, where did you train? Mildred Jane Doyle: We trained at the airport in Grand Rapids. Frank Boring: In Grand Rapids? Mildred Jane Doyle: We had our ground training school at junior college. Frank Boring: Oh, ok. Ground school is mainly like school classes, that kind of thing? Mildred Jane Doyle: Yes. You have to have so many hours of ground school and pass the ground school test. Frank Boring: How many people were in a class? Mildred Jane Doyle: There were 30 altogether. Frank Boring: How many women? Mildred Jane Doyle: There were 3, but I was the only one that got my license. Frank Boring: That eventually passed? Three women out of the whole 30. Was there any kind of reaction from the guys, that you’re there? I mean, it’s so unusual! Mildred Jane Doyle: No, because I played in the band too. Frank Boring: Ok. Mildred Jane Doyle: And so, there were a lot of them from the band that were in that class. Frank Boring: Oh, ok! So you were accepted. Mildred Jane Doyle: I was accepted. Frank Boring: Oh, ok, I’m glad to hear that. Mildred Jane Doyle: And when I was in high school, I was an ROTC sponsor, so 8:05 I was accepted in that. I tried all these things [laughs] that sounded interesting! Frank Boring: An adventurous young lady. Oh my goodness! Ok, so ground school is pretty much classroom kind of stuff, all right. But now you’re getting into the actual training flying. Tell us about that—what is that experience like? Mildred Jane Doyle: Well, I had to get out to the airport and my parents didn’t have a car, so that was a little problem, but I found a way to get out there. I think probably the bus or the �street car, maybe, I don’t know what went out there at that time. But it was every day, we had flight instruction. And after 6 hours, we soloed, and there was 36 hours of flight. Frank Boring: What kind of airplane were you flying? Mildred Jane Doyle: It was a Piper Cub. Frank Boring: Oh, ok. One seat? Mildred Jane Doyle: Well, it was a tandem one, one in back of the other. Frank Boring: Ok, so the instructor would sit behind you. Mildred Jane Doyle: Yes. Frank Boring: You would then have to taxi and take off 9:05 and all the basic stuff first and eventually, you got a chance to solo. Mildred Jane Doyle: Yes. Frank Boring: What was that like? Mildred Jane Doyle: Oh, that was quite an experience! [laughs] But we had acrobatics too, we had an area where we would go out and do acrobatics and loops and we had to go through all those things in case of emergency, you know how to handle the plane. So I got my pilot license that summer. Frank Boring: That summer you’re living at home? Mildred Jane Doyle: Yes. Frank Boring: Ok, and you’re taking the trolley or however—a Mildred Jane Doyle: Yeah, I don’t remember how I got there, but I got there! [laughs] Frank Boring: That’s the important thing. [laughs] Mildred Jane Doyle: I might’ve walked there. [laughs] Just to get there. Frank Boring: The actual training base itself, was it like one airplane, two airplanes, twenty airplanes, how big was this place? Mildred Jane Doyle: Well, there were the two air services at the airport at that time, and there was Northern Air Service and Becker Air Service. And so there were twenty of them that were training 10:05 at Northern and ten at Becker. And so there was several planes but I think we only ever used one, I don’t remember. �Frank Boring: So the airport as we see it now, all our offices out at the airport, there nothing like that now… Mildred Jane Doyle: No, this was at the end of Madison Avenue. The old airport. Frank Boring: Ok, ok. All right. And so this was just, what kind of a runway was it? Mildred Jane Doyle: Well, commercial planes came in and the Ford Tri Motor came in. And I think there was probably United Airlines flight in. They were small, but, it was just commercially too. Frank Boring: Ok. Was there a building out there and hangars and things like that? Mildred Jane Doyle: There were two hangars. Frank Boring: Ok. Just two hangars. Mildred Jane Doyle: Two hangars. Frank Boring: Two hangars. Oh my goodness. Was there a tower or anything? Mildred Jane Doyle: Yes, there was a tower. Frank Boring: I’m just trying to visualize it, because I look at an airport today and you’re talking modern airport with the roads and all that. Mildred Jane Doyle: 11:05 It extended from about 28th Street, where Madison went just past 28th Street, I think. And from there over to about 42nd, 44th. It wasn’t too large but it was large enough for planes of that time period coming in. Frank Boring: Sure, sure. Was this an exciting time for you? Mildred Jane Doyle: Oh, it was. I loved it. [laughs] Frank Boring: We were talking before the interview and before we got on camera about how I had talked to so many pilots, I grew up in an airline family and pilots just have this excitement, they’re flying! They’re flying! Mildred Jane Doyle: Well, there were quite a few of them, fellows that weren’t in the program yet, they weren’t instructors but they were flying out there and they were barnstormers. Frank Boring: Oh my goodness. Mildred Jane Doyle: So I went barnstorming a few times with them too. �Frank Boring: You did? For those people who don’t know what barnstorming is, 12:05 explain what is barnstorming? Mildred Jane Doyle: Well, they would fly to some small field out in the country and anybody that wanted to go up for a ride, they take for a ride and then they would do some stunts and that type thing. Frank Boring: Because this is before television, this is before all that kind of mass communications that we have, so it was exciting for people to see somebody actually get into a piece of wood… [laughs] Mildred Jane Doyle: [laughs] canvas and wood. Frank Boring: Canvas and wood, and fly around. And you say you barnstormed? Mildred Jane Doyle: I went with them. Frank Boring: Oh ok. Mildred Jane Doyle: And I flew some with them, but I didn’t do any of the acrobatics because I didn’t have my license. Frank Boring: So, when did you graduate, I mean, get your pilot’s license? What year was that? Mildred Jane Doyle: Well, that was 1940 that I got my private license. Frank Boring: Right. Mildred Jane Doyle: And that was 35 hours of flight time. Frank Boring: What was the purpose of getting a pilot’s license? Mildred Jane Doyle: Well, so I could fly if I wanted to. Frank Boring: Yeah, but is there any kind of career idea here, or? 13:05 Mildred Jane Doyle: No, not really. Well, I kind of wanted to be an airline stewardess but at that time you had to be a nurse to be an airline stewardess. And I couldn’t be a nurse! [laughs] That was one thing I couldn’t do. So I thought, well, maybe I can fly instead. Frank Boring: Because, the reason why I’m asking, Jane, is there really wasn’t many options, it’s not like you could go fly for UPS or go fly for United Airlines at that time. Mildred Jane Doyle: There were a few women in the country who were instructors at that time, but not very many because when the war started, there were about 39 that had, or about �45 that had commercial licenses or instructor’s license. And that was in the entire country at that time. Frank Boring: So, once you had your pilot’s license, you’re still in school? Mildred Jane Doyle: Mmhmm. Frank Boring: What happened next? Mildred Jane Doyle: Well, then I went down to University of Michigan after that summer and you could, they had an advanced program down there but they wouldn’t let women 14:05 in it. Frank Boring: Even though you had a license? Mildred Jane Doyle: Even though I had a license. And in the advanced program, you’d get a commercial license. So, they had the Civil Air Patrol at that time, so I flew with the Civil Air Patrol to keep up my hours. You had to have so many hours a year. Frank Boring: What purpose, because, once again, people don’t know, what’s the Civil Air Patrol? Mildred Jane Doyle: It was a civilian group that was formed to, as observation pilots or rescue pilots and it still exists, the Civil Air Patrol. They did rescue work, looking for downed planes or something like that. Frank Boring: So this is almost like the fireman, these are volunteers, and you had to fly. So, something happens, maybe there’s a fire in a forest or something and you’d fly over to try and find people that may be on the ground? Mildred Jane Doyle: Yes, it was more observation. Frank Boring: Observation? Ok. Mildred Jane Doyle: And of course, I didn’t have a plane, 15:05 so I flew with anybody that would take me. [laughs] Frank Boring: What happened next? In terms of American, Pearl Harbor is looming in the distance here. Is that the next major thing that happened to you? Mildred Jane Doyle: Well, that’s, right after Pearl Harbor, that’s when I got a telegram from Jacqueline Cochran and she was looking for any women pilots in the country who were interested, that had a pilot license, for training. �Frank Boring: Ok, let’s not jump ahead too fast. Where were you and what was your reaction— how’d you find out about the attack on Pearl Harbor? Mildred Jane Doyle: I was in school at the time, it was a Sunday morning and I’d gone over to do some extra work over in the drafting room over in the College of Architecture, and while I was working there, someone came in and announced it. One of the other students had heard it on the radio, I presume. Frank Boring: Did you know where Pearl Harbor was? Mildred Jane Doyle: I knew where it was but I didn’t really know too much about it, 16:05 but I knew there was a Navy base there. Frank Boring: What was the reaction of the people around you? Mildred Jane Doyle: Everybody was just stunned because that was going to change mostly the men’s lives that were all there at school and a lot of them went right away or were drafted, well, they weren’t drafted but they signed up for the service. Frank Boring: So the school, and I told you earlier, I talked with Mary Jean Brooks, she was in college at the same time, it was like the whole college just disappeared, just the men, it was gone, is that what happened? Mildred Jane Doyle: Well, quite a few but then they brought in programs, the Navy brought in the program that, V-12 or something, they had programs that the men would come and take so many courses at the university. And I think that probably kept them going during the war. Frank Boring: Yeah. They were— Mildred Jane Doyle: Military programs. Frank Boring: Yeah, military programs came in. But it was a completely different environment. Mildred Jane Doyle: Yeah, it was. Frank Boring: What was your reaction to Pearl Harbor? 17:05 In terms of you, personally, how, obviously, you said the men were either going to be drafted or they had to join, how was your reaction? Mildred Jane Doyle: I was just stunned, I don’t know what my reaction was but I know it was quite an experience to hear that at that time, I think we all probably went home and turned on our radios to see what was happening. �Frank Boring: Yeah, yeah. You know, the vets, certainly, that I’ve talked to, that remember that day so vividly, as you have, their course was set, they either waited to be drafted or they said, I’m going to join, so there was this purpose. What about you? Where there options, did you think about options you had or? Cause you didn’t have to go. Mildred Jane Doyle: No, but they weren’t really taking women yet at that time, see. So as soon as I got the telegram that they were looking for women pilots, why, I wanted to do it. Frank Boring: Explain who Cochran was. Mildred Jane Doyle: Jacqueline Cochran was head of the WASP program, she had, 18:05 she was an old-time pilot. Frank Boring: Did you know of her before? Mildred Jane Doyle: I had heard of her. Frank Boring: Ok. Mildred Jane Doyle: And she had won the Bendix Air Race, which was well know. Frank Boring: Oh, it’s like the Grand Prix! That was big! Mildred Jane Doyle: Yes, and she had won that. That was in 1938, and then she was invited by Eleanor Roosevelt to come and meet she and the president, and then she at the time said that if there was ever a time that women pilots were needed, that she was sure she could get enough women pilots to serve. And so she sent out this telegram for those that were interested. And of course I responded right away. [laughs] But I promised my parents that I would finish college first before I went in. Frank Boring: Well let’s, I realize this was a long time ago and it’s difficult to dig through all those cobwebs sometimes but, 19:05 when you got the telegram, what was your reaction to that? Mildred Jane Doyle: Oh, I was thrilled, because I thought, here was my chance to really fly! And do something. Frank Boring: How old were you? You were about 20-something right? Twenty…? Mildred Jane Doyle: This was 1942. Frank Boring: ’42, ok, so… Mildred Jane Doyle: I was 21. Frank Boring: 21 years old. �Mildred Jane Doyle: Mmhmm. Frank Boring: And here’s this woman that you’d heard about, she won the Bendix and you got this telegram saying, are you with—what does the telegram actually say? Mildred Jane Doyle: Just if I was interested and wanted more information to respond to it and more information would follow. Frank Boring: So what happened next, what did you do? Mildred Jane Doyle: Well, I just waited and then finally I got the notice to go to Selfridge Field. Frank Boring: Wait a minute, you didn’t just wait 20:05 because you responded, right? [SKIP IN DVD] Frank Boring: Were you part of the first wave or the second wave or the third or? Mildred Jane Doyle: Well, right about in the middle. Frank Boring: Ok, ok. So women had already gone through this? Mildred Jane Doyle: Yes, every month there was a new class. And they had started in Houston because there wasn’t any place for them to go. And they say, we paid our own way there and there were no uniforms or anything. Frank Boring: Wow. Well, what did you wear? Mildred Jane Doyle: Well, then when we were there we wore these coveralls. Frank Boring: You talking about one of those, the zipper, you step into in one of those one piece things? Mildred Jane Doyle: Well there were no zippers, they had buttons. Frank Boring: Oh, ok. Mildred Jane Doyle: They were a coverall, a one-piece coverall. Frank Boring: Yeah, yeah. I know what you mean now. Mildred Jane Doyle: And the flight suits we had, it was November, you know, when I started training down there, and we flew open-cockpit planes. So our flight suits were the heavy leather ones with sheep lining and they were rather large too and the boots were large. Everything was large, helmets. Frank Boring: Like canvas? �Mildred Jane Doyle: No, it was a leather helmet. Frank Boring: Leather helmet, 21:05 ok. Covering the ears? Mildred Jane Doyle: Yeah. Frank Boring: Ok. All right, yeah, yeah. What were you flying? Mildred Jane Doyle: Well when we got there, we flew PT19s, which was the Fairchild’s. It was the first trainer and after about 4 hours in that, they brought in Stearmans which is the PT17. Frank Boring: Which is what the men were training in too. The Stearman, yeah. Mildred Jane Doyle: So we finished our primary training in Stearmans. Frank Boring: Now where were you staying? Mildred Jane Doyle: Well, there were barracks on the base, and we stayed there and ate there and we could get off for a few hours on the weekend sometimes. Frank Boring: Into Sweetwater? [laughs] The metropolis of Sweetwater? [laughs] Mildred Jane Doyle: [laughs] Well, there wasn’t much in Sweetwater. Frank Boring: Well, give me, let me try to understand the actual base itself. How many barracks were there, I mean, not an exact number, but, approximately? Two, three? Mildred Jane Doyle: No, maybe ten. But they were long barracks 22:05 with a courtyard in between. There were six of us in one room. And there was a little— Frank Boring: Stacked bunks? Mildred Jane Doyle: No, side by side. Then there was the bathroom in between and then six more on the other side. Frank Boring: Showers? Mildred Jane Doyle: There were showers, yes. Frank Boring: Ok, so there were showers, where did you eat? Mildred Jane Doyle: We ate in the mess hall. Frank Boring: So there was actually a physical mess hall. [garbled] just like you see in the military [garbled] slop, slop, slop? �Mildred Jane Doyle: Green beans, I never wanted to see another green bean again. [laughs] Even for breakfast, green beans. And then we had physical, PT, physical training. And ground school— Frank Boring: What was a typical day like? I mean, like you get up in the morning, explain how that whole day went. Mildred Jane Doyle: Well, we got up with the bugle call. And it was about 6 o’clock in the morning, the bugle call. And then we went to the mess hall and ate. And then it was divided 23:05 that one group would go to flight school and the other group would go to flight training. Now, we were divided into two groups and there were, let’s see, about 40 in my class, so 20 in each group. Frank Boring: And you were part of the, which part were you with? Mildred Jane Doyle: Well, alphabetically. So it went to the middle of the alphabet. So I was in one group, but like I say, one group would go to flight training while the other was in ground school, and the next week it would change, alternate. Frank Boring: Alternate. Mildred Jane Doyle: We had flight school in the morning, we had flight work in the morning, and then we had ground school in the afternoon. Frank Boring: I see. And sometimes vice versa? Mildred Jane Doyle: And sometimes vice versa. Frank Boring: What was the physical training like? Mildred Jane Doyle: It was calisthenics and push ups and chin—when you go like that [motions], [laughs] everything! Frank Boring: Was there a drill instructor? Mildred Jane Doyle: Mmhmm. Frank Boring: Male or female. Mildred Jane Doyle: Male. Frank Boring: Obviously 24:05 in the movies and TV, they’re screaming in your face. Mildred Jane Doyle: [laughs] It was sort of like that. Frank Boring: Was it? Ok. So they were really… �Mildred Jane Doyle: We had to go through the same training the cadets went through. It was the same program. Frank Boring: Was there any, and I know we’re talking about school here, but was there any indication that they were treating you differently than they were the men? Mildred Jane Doyle: Some of the instructors, they were civilian instructors that we had, and there were some of them that sort of resented that we were getting military training and they weren’t in the service. Frank Boring: Themself. Mildred Jane Doyle: Some people had problems, but if you didn’t get out of line, why, you were all right. Frank Boring: You pretty much just did what you were told to do. How did you put up with the physical, I mean, did you adapt ok and were physically healthy and, 25:05 it was hard but you could get through it? You’re tired at the end of the night? Mildred Jane Doyle: Oh, yes. And getting up in the morning, I’m not a morning person, so that was bad. [laughs] And then we had barracks inspection where you had to have everything just spotless. It was the same training. Frank Boring: It’s interesting because you’re civilians yet you’re being treated like you’re in the military. It’s basic training! Mildred Jane Doyle: It was, uh huh. And even after we graduated, we were still civilians, but we were under military orders. Frank Boring: At that time, did you get communication from outside, did you get newspapers, radio, did you know what was going on in the world? Mildred Jane Doyle: Not much, mostly through letter from home and that type of thing. Frank Boring: So you were communicating with your family? Mildred Jane Doyle: Yes. Frank Boring: Did you keep those letters? Mildred Jane Doyle: No. I didn’t. [laughs] Frank Boring: Oh! Don’t tell a historian that, not on television! All right. 26:05 Were you homesick? �Mildred Jane Doyle: Not really, I was too busy to be homesick. I was doing something that I liked to do. Frank Boring: Yeah, that’s what I figured. Mildred Jane Doyle: And I just kept in touch with my parents and knew what was going on at home, so. And they were thrilled that I was in it. Frank Boring: What about concern for your brother? Where was he? Mildred Jane Doyle: He was in the Pacific on a destroyer and his destroyer was hit, but he came out of it all right. Frank Boring: But there was still concern there. Mildred Jane Doyle: Yes. Frank Boring: What’s going to happen? Mildred Jane Doyle: Mmhmm. Frank Boring: You graduated. Was there a ceremony? Mildred Jane Doyle: Yes. Frank Boring: What was that like? Mildred Jane Doyle: Well, Jacqueline Cochran and General Arnold came. Frank Boring: [gasp] Hap Arnold? Wow! Mildred Jane Doyle: And we were presented our wings. And see, for the first few classes, Jacqueline Cochran bought the wings, the military, they wouldn’t even buy the wings for us. And so, 27:05 up until about 2 classes before mine, the wings were different for each class. When they started out in the Ferry Command, they had the gold bonnet, and after that the wings had the number of the class on it, but then it was a standard wing with a diamond shape in the center for the rest of the classes. And I can remember graduation very well because when Jacqueline Cochran gave me my wings, she said, “How did you get in here?” Because I was so short! [laughs] And one of the girls, one of my best friends, was one of my barracks mates was almost 6 feet tall and the two of us were around together most of the time, and they called us Mutt and Jeff! [laughs] But I kept trying to stretch. And when I’d fly I’d have to take 3 pillows with me. Frank Boring: Oh my goodness! That moment when Cochran pins on your wings, that had to be amazing. �Mildred Jane Doyle: It was. My parents had come too, from Grand Rapids, 28:05 they came down for the ceremony and they were there. Frank Boring: See the closest I can associate to that, was I made Eagle Scout in the Boy Scouts and my father was the one that pinned on my medal and I will always remember that for the rest of my life, that moment where they just, and you’re just standing there and…you got your wings. Mildred Jane Doyle: See they would have a parade of all the classes, march by a reviewing stand, and the same as the cadets program. Frank Boring: Did Cochran make a speech? Mildred Jane Doyle: Yes. Frank Boring: It was a inspirational, you women are, I mean, what was the gist of it, what do you remember about it? Mildred Jane Doyle: I don’t remember. [laughs] Frank Boring: So what happened after graduation? Mildred Jane Doyle: Well then I got a flight back to, I happened to know a fellow that was from Detroit and he was stationed at a nearby air base. And so he got leave 29:05 and flew me back to Detroit. [laughs] Frank Boring: This is something unheard of today, there’s no way this could happen. But I’ve talked to other vets from this area who were pilots, one of whom he married his wife, flew her back to Grand Rapids before they were married, flew her back there and that really impressed her that he could fly her to Grand Rapids in his airplane. Mildred Jane Doyle: Yeah, we flew into Romulus and then I got the train home from Romulus. Frank Boring: Wow. Well, what were your options then, I mean, what are you supposed to be doing after you graduated? Mildred Jane Doyle: Well, I had orders to go to Freedman Field in Seymour, Indiana, there were 10 days, we had 10 days leave. And then I had to report to Seymour, Indiana, June 1. Frank Boring: And you got there by train? Mildred Jane Doyle: Yes. That was another train ride I remember. [laughs] Getting out and taking the cab back to the base and… �Frank Boring: Oh my goodness. Were you being paid during this period of time? Did you have a salary? Mildred Jane Doyle: Yes, we got $200 a month. We got the same, I think the same 30:05 as the officers got at that time. Frank Boring: 200 bucks a month during…that’s a lot of money, actually. Mildred Jane Doyle: Mmhmm. But see, we had to pay for our own lodging and everything, so— Frank Boring: Yeah, your expenses were not covered. Mildred Jane Doyle: Yeah, but we were in [garbled], but I was lucky cause I got to stay in the nurses’ quarters on the base. They didn’t know where to put me when I got there. Frank Boring: All men, it’s all men there. Mildred Jane Doyle: Well, there were two other WASPs there, but they were living in town. And so when I got there, they said if I wanted to live in the nurses’ quarters, I could live there. And so that was convenient cause then I could walk to the flight line. Frank Boring: Give us an idea of this base, cause it’s a big place? Mildred Jane Doyle: It was a good-sized base it was the Advanced 1 Training School. In fact, the field is still there and they have reunions now 31:05 for people who were stationed there to get to go back. Frank Boring: So these nurses, were they in training? Mildred Jane Doyle: No, they were nurses for the base hospital. Frank Boring: Hospital. So this is a pretty big base. Mildred Jane Doyle: It was a good-sized base. Frank Boring: All right, what was your daily routine like during that period. You’re living with the nurses, there’s three, two others… Mildred Jane Doyle: Two others. Frank Boring: Two others in town. Mildred Jane Doyle: We were all assigned to the maintenance hangar. So we did test flights. Frank Boring: So every morning you would go there to the flight line, and what did you do? �Mildred Jane Doyle: Well, there was usually a flight that had to be tested every day. And if there wasn’t, why lots of times there were other personnel from the base that had to be flown to one of the other bases or supplies or something and we’d do those flights. Frank Boring: What kind of airplanes are we talking about? Mildred Jane Doyle: It was the advanced one-engine AT-10 Trainer. Frank Boring: They’re still trainers. Mildred Jane Doyle: Yeah. Frank Boring: So even though you’re ferrying people to destinations around the area, 32:05 you’re still doing it in a trainer? Mildred Jane Doyle: Mmhmm. It was a good-sized trainer, it had the two seats. Frank Boring: Two seats. Somebody comes to the base and they need to fly to X, somewhere, and so you get an assignment saying you need to go here. How did you know how to get there? Mildred Jane Doyle: Well we had [garbled] and flight map and… Frank Boring: What are the maps like in those days, were you flying by landmarks? Mildred Jane Doyle: Mostly by landmarks, but during training, we did have instrument training. So I had an instrument license. We never flew actual instrument flights but we had the Link Trainer, so we got the instrument rating. The only radio communication was, at that time, was a beam. And you flew, it was either dot dash or dash dot and it you flew on the beam you got the solid signal. If you got off the beam 33:05 on the right you’d get another signal and on the left you’d get the other signal. Frank Boring: These are not open cockpit now, are they? Mildred Jane Doyle: No. Frank Boring: Now you have closed cockpit, ok. What were you dressed like at this time, what were you wearing? Mildred Jane Doyle: Well after we graduated, we did get a uniform. And we had to pay for our uniform. [laughs] It was a blue, they called it Santiago blue. And it was a jacket an d slacks and a skirt and a purse and a hat. Frank Boring: The slacks you wore when you were flying, and the skirt you wore when you were at formal things, like that. �Mildred Jane Doyle: Yeah. And one time when I was flying, I had to go to, Cincinnati, I think it was, and I had my slacks on. And I had a flat tire when I got up there, so I had to stay overnight, and they wouldn’t let me in the dining room of the hotel because I had slacks on. [laughs] And I said, “Well, this is a uniform, this is all I have.” And they said, “Sorry, you can’t eat in here.” [laughs] Frank Boring: I was just going to ask about that, yep. It’s amazing to thing about, that time, women in slacks. 34:05 Today, you know, we think about jeans and… Mildred Jane Doyle: Yeah, it’s casual apparel now. Frank Boring: But they wouldn’t let you in to eat because you had slacks on. There’s three of you, then at this base, basically doing the same types of things, right? You were talking about testing aircraft, what did that entail? Mildred Jane Doyle: Well if one of the cadets came in and said, you know, something was wrong with the plane, we’d take it up for a test flight and see what was wrong and then maintenance would work on it. And then after engine change, it had to have so many hours of slow time on the planes, and we’d do that. So we were busy, the three of us. Frank Boring: Was there any social life? Mildred Jane Doyle: Yes. [laughs] That’s where I met my husband. [laughs] Frank Boring: Ok, let’s get down to it, here. Well, what happened? Mildred Jane Doyle: Well, there really wasn’t that much social life on the base, except for 35:05 the married people that were on the base. But some of the married people would accept me very well and we would do things together. And they were friends of my husband’s so we would do things together. Frank Boring: Well, how did you meet him? Mildred Jane Doyle: Well, he happened to be a check pilot and I had to be checked out in the AT-10. [laughs] Frank Boring: You’re in your slacks and your uniform and you walk up to meet this guy you’ve never seen before. Mildred Jane Doyle: Well, I was supposed to be checked out by somebody else but he said, “Let me do it.” [laughs] Frank Boring: Oh, really? You realize, of course, I’m going to interview him and I’m going to get his side of the story. �Mildred Jane Doyle: So that’s how I met him and he said, you know, would you like to go out for dinner, and things like that, so. Frank Boring: Oh my goodness. How long was that period of time, it terms of your dating, you’re still at work and everything but now you’re dating, you’re going to dinner, movies, things like that? Mildred Jane Doyle: Mmhmm. 36:05 He had been an instructor for quite a few years so he had quite a few friends there. So we did quite a few things off the base. Frank Boring: Did you like him from the beginning? Mildred Jane Doyle: No, I was scared of him. [laughs] Frank Boring: Cause he was an instructor with experience. Mildred Jane Doyle: Cause he was so strict. I remember one time coming in for a landing and he cut the engines on me, you know, and I had to quick respond and he was a good instructor, very good. Frank Boring: That’s wonderful. I’m going to ask him the same questions, by the way. I know in my parents’ case, I talked to my dad about how he met my mom and how my mom…you know sometimes the stories don’t always sync up. Mildred Jane Doyle: Well, that’s it, I was walking down the road to the flight line, probably a week after I’d been there and he came along and wanted to know if I wanted a ride and I said, “No, I’ll walk.” [laughs] I wasn’t too sure at first. Frank Boring: How long was that period of time 37:05 where you were working…where’d you go next from there? Mildred Jane Doyle: I stayed there because the program ended then in December of ’44. This was June of ’44 that I went there, and September we got a notice that the program might be disbanded because the vote was coming up in Congress whether to make us part of the military and it didn’t pass, so the program was going to be disbanded in December. Frank Boring: What is W-A-S-P? Mildred Jane Doyle: Women’s Airforce Service Pilots. Frank Boring: But they were not considered a part of the American military. Mildred Jane Doyle: No. It wasn’t until 1977 that Congress approved legislation to make us part of…that gave us veterans status. And then it took two years after that, we were finally �discharged. [laughs] We hadn't been in the service but we got a discharge, 38:05 an honorable discharge. So it was a lot of politics going on at that time. Frank Boring: So technically you were in the military, if you didn’t get discharged, you were in the military for some 30 years or something. That’s amazing. How did you hear about the V-E Day, the Victory in Europe? Do you remember the Victory in Europe? The Nazis had been defeated. Mildred Jane Doyle: Yeah, I trying to think if that’s… I remember about Japan, but I don’t remember V-E Day. Frank Boring: Ok, but you were still there, you were still at that training base? [garbled] Mildred Jane Doyle: I don’t think so. When was V-E Day? [laughs] Frank Boring: May of ’45. Mildred Jane Doyle: See, the base was closed and I was 39:05 already out by then. Frank Boring: You were already out of the WASPs, ok. Mildred Jane Doyle: Yeah, I think we were out in Dodge City, Kansas at that time cause he was still in the service. Frank Boring: Well, did you get married at that time? Mildred Jane Doyle: I got married in August of ’44. Frank Boring: All right, so you meet him for the first time, he’s very intimidating because he’s this instructor, he’s very strict. Ok. But he’s dating you, he’s wooing you, did he pop the question there? Mildred Jane Doyle: Yeah. Frank Boring: Ok. So he asked for your hand in marriage. Mildred Jane Doyle: We got married there at the air base. And one of the other WASPs had met her husband there and they were supposed to get married that date and he outranked the other fellow, so they had to wait a week. [laughs] Frank Boring: Well what about your respective parents, his parents and your parents, they were not there, right? Mildred Jane Doyle: No. 40:05 They didn’t really approve. Frank Boring: Really? �Mildred Jane Doyle: No, they thought it was sort of hasty, but it was. Frank Boring: They were concerned because it’s just the military and you’re just meeting this guy, very short period of time. But you’re stuck together for how many years? Mildred Jane Doyle: Well, 61 now. So it worked. Frank Boring: It worked! Mildred Jane Doyle: It worked. It’s amazing, other couples I know too, at the same time, knew each other just a short period of time, they’re still together. Frank Boring: The experience, then, during that period of time, as a WASP there, did you go outside of there, or pretty much that was your military service was there? Mildred Jane Doyle: I got orders to go to Panama City, Florida, to B-26 training for tow-target. And it was just at the same time that I got the notice that the program was going to be disbanded. So instead of going to Florida, I had to turn right around and come back. We could resign. 41:05 And so, I resigned in October. And the program was disbanded in December. Frank Boring: Did you have any idea that you were part of, at that time, what we now know as the WASPs, ok, and there’s a lot of publicity about it, it’s part of American history now, did you have any idea that you were part of this ground-breaking, new, pioneer, all those kind of words that you probably never used back then, did you have any idea back then? Mildred Jane Doyle: No and it wasn’t really till, well, for 20 years afterwards, well 40 years afterwards, because it was from 1944 to 1977, when an article came out in the paper that the first woman pilot for the military was graduating from the Air Force academy. And that stirred things up, the WASPs got busy then, with the help of General Arnold’s son, he lobbied to get the legislation through that we were part of the military. 42:05 But for that 40-year period, nobody knew who the WASPs were, really. Frank Boring: Once you resigned from the program, you’re married, where’d you go from there? Mildred Jane Doyle: Well the base closed then in December too, the first of January, so from there, why, we went to Dodge City, Kansas. Frank Boring: Your husband? Mildred Jane Doyle: Yeah. Frank Boring: He was assigned there? �Mildred Jane Doyle: Yes. And then to San Antonio, Texas, and then Douglas, Arizona, because the war was ending then, in fact, when we were on our way to Douglas, Arizona, that’s when the Japanese surrendered. Frank Boring: You heard on the radio? Mildred Jane Doyle: Yeah, in the car. I think we were in Kansas then. Frank Boring: What was your reaction? Mildred Jane Doyle: Oh, we were just thrilled it was going to be over with. Frank Boring: Was your brother already back? Mildred Jane Doyle: I don’t remember. I don’t think so. 43:05 Frank Boring: Cause I’m just thinking the relief must also have been directed toward your brother’s finally going to get back. Well, what did your husband decide to do after V-J Day was, where did you go? Mildred Jane Doyle: Well, then he stayed in a while, then, he was in Japan after the war. Frank Boring: Oh Occupation of Japan. You stayed here? Mildred Jane Doyle: Mmhmm, I stayed here. I was all set to go over there but because he had no previous overseas experience, he was an instructor during the war, I’d get to the top of the list and then I’d go to the bottom of the list for dependents because others that had overseas experience were chosen first. Frank Boring: How long was he overseas? Mildred Jane Doyle: He was, oh, about 18 months…maybe a year, but it was quite a while. Frank Boring: Yeah. Where did you stay? Mildred Jane Doyle: I stayed at home with my parents. Frank Boring: And you communicated by letter? Mildred Jane Doyle: Mmhmm. Frank Boring: He didn’t keep any of those? Mildred Jane Doyle: No. [laughs] 44:05 Frank Boring: Oh! �Mildred Jane Doyle: I didn’t think about it at the time. Frank Boring: I know, I understand. When you stayed at your parents’ house, what did you do for livelihood, did you just stay there and you were…did you go to work or? Mildred Jane Doyle: I got a job around Christmas time, downtown in Grand Rapids. But then I had a child, one child so I stayed at home and helped them out. Frank Boring: Yeah. What about flying though? Mildred Jane Doyle: I went out to the airport to keep up my license. But I finally decided it wasn’t worth it because, unless I could fly for a purpose—just to rent a plane and fly to keep up, it didn’t, I did it for a while, but then I thought, well… Frank Boring: Was there any thought on your part to become a pilot commercially, or were there opportunities? 45:05 Mildred Jane Doyle: Not many opportunities, not around here. There were in California and areas like that where there were a lot of aviation enterprises but around this area there weren’t. Frank Boring: And you wanted to stay here. Mildred Jane Doyle: Mmhmm. Frank Boring: Because of family, because of…? Mildred Jane Doyle: Yeah, and well, when he came back from Japan, he got out of the service and stayed in the reserve and kept going to Selfridge Field once a month for training. Frank Boring: Well why didn’t you move back to where he lived? Mildred Jane Doyle: Well, there wasn’t anything over there. You ever heard of Cuba City, Wisconsin? Frank Boring: No. Mildred Jane Doyle: [laughs] That’s where he was from. [laughs] Frank Boring: Ok, not a lot to do in Cuba City. Mildred Jane Doyle: We were over there, he was looking for work over there around the Milwaukee area, but then one of my parents’ neighbors knew of an opening here, so we came back here and he worked for that company for 30 years. �Frank Boring: Wow. Ok, so you settled down, in Grand Rapids, raised a family. 46:05 When you were living your life as a wife, as a mother, your husband is working, were there ever thoughts of nostalgia for flying and all that? Mildred Jane Doyle: Very much so. Frank Boring: Yeah? Well, tell me about it. Mildred Jane Doyle: Still, as soon as I hear an airplane, I look up. But I always wished I had kept on, flying some. Frank Boring: There’s nothing like it, huh? Mildred Jane Doyle: No, that’s it. It’s just, when you’re sitting up there and looking down on everything, you’re in a different world. And it’s really, it’s a wonderful experience. I don’t care about flying commercially because they go so you can’t even see the ground at high altitude. And you know, cramped, it’s just a small plane flying around, it’s just a different feeling. Frank Boring: When the 1970s arrives 47:05 and the first woman was recognized, how did you find out about that and what was your reaction to it? Mildred Jane Doyle: There was an article in Grand Rapids’ paper, her picture was in [garbled] first woman pilot for the military. And I thought, that’s not right! We were all, all of us were part of that, really. We flew every military plane there was, the WASPs did, and even the B-29, some flew that. Frank Boring: Well, you saw this in the paper, your reaction, as you just stated was, wait a minute, this isn’t right. I mean, I’m sure you were happy for her. Mildred Jane Doyle: Yes. Frank Boring: Well what happened after? Mildred Jane Doyle: Well, shortly after that I started getting letters and petitions for signatures to make us part of the military, to recognize 48:05 us as having been pilots for the military. Frank Boring: And then soon afterwards? Mildred Jane Doyle: It took it quite a while, the Stars and Stripes newspaper kept, weekly, sending us issues telling us what was going on. And it took quite a while before it was finally approved. Frank Boring: I grew up on the Stars and Stripes, I know exactly the things that— �Mildred Jane Doyle: So, yeah, I saved all those. Frank Boring: Oh, wow, you do have those. Mildred Jane Doyle: I have those. I have a lot of other things, but not letters. [laughs] Frank Boring: Ok. All right, you are now forgiven. The process took a period of time, but once it was finally decided that, you know, they were recognizing you, what was your reaction to that? Mildred Jane Doyle: Oh, I was glad to be recognized. Cause then I got the discharge afterwards so… Frank Boring: Did you feel you were part of the military the whole period of time you were in? 49:05 Mildred Jane Doyle: While we were training and while I was at Seymour. Cause I say, you had to follow military orders and everything, so. Frank Boring: You know, a similar thing happened, I interviewed several nurses, they were Red Cross, they weren’t military, they were Red Cross. And then, finally, they were military nurses. And it’s, you know, you look back on that period of time, and then flash forward to now, and we take these things for granted today. Nobody, I don’t want to say nobody, but there just seems to be this forgotten part of the pioneers that were involved. And I know you never thought of yourself as a pioneer, but really, I mean, when you stop to think about it, you broke ground for people. You gave opportunities to people that are 20 years old today and have all these options, all these options. Mildred Jane Doyle: That’s it, they recruit women for the military now, where then, at that time, well, I think, the Navy, 50:05 the women work actually in the Navy, after a time they were considered part of the military. Frank Boring: Yeah, that’s what happened to Mary Jean. Did you follow the career of Cochran? Mildred Jane Doyle: Yes, because we had reunions and she was a part of the reunions. And then she even invited us all out to her ranch in California, for one of the reunions, it was out there. And she was a real pioneer in women’s aviation. Frank Boring: Well she was the public face of it, and as you say, she really pushed for it. Mildred Jane Doyle: There was Cochran and Amelia Earhart and Nancy Love, they were really the three [garbled] women pilots. But there was one way back before that, I know, I have a book, the history of women in aviation. And they started out 51:05 more or less as hanging from balloons and different things, you know, in circuses and walking wings and �that type of thing, but the first woman pilot got her license in about 1929, something like that. Frank Boring: Wow, yeah. These reunions that you refer to, the one where Cochran was at, what was that experience like? You’re amongst all these fellow pilots, you don’t know many of them or maybe you don’t know any of them, but you’re part of a common group, though. Mildred Jane Doyle: Well, those of us that were in the same class would sort of go to the reunions and stay more or less with the people from their classes. But then those that were stationed at different bases had contact with the others. And I know here in Michigan, there’s about eight in Michigan now. Frank Boring: Oh ok. I, because of my father, I’m very closely related 52:05 to the Flying Tigers, the Flying Tigers reunions, and I feel that sense of family, because they were part of a common experience, do you feel that way with your group? Mildred Jane Doyle: When you’re with them you do, that you’re all part of one big group. Frank Boring: And now that you’ve been recognized, now that the world knows what a WASP is and it’s in the books and whatnot, when you go to reunions now, is there more of a sharing of this experience, this feeling of belonging to this group? Mildred Jane Doyle: Well, that’s it, there’s fewer and fewer every year. And so the reunions are getting smaller. They still have the reunions every two years. I didn’t go to the last one in Washington. But, just a couple of months ago, it wasn’t an actual reunion in Washington but we were invited to come 53:05 go through the White House and I didn’t get to do that either. But you know, the group has stuck together, you know, and trying to carry on the legacy and there’s some that have really been promoting the legacy of the WASPs and trying to do things that they will be remembered. Frank Boring: They should be. And you know, we were talking before we actually started the oral history interview, that, so many of the vets that I talk to, they were, course, 20 years old, 18, 19, 22, you’re focused on what you’re doing, your world was falling apart around you, you had to do your part to make sure we have the freedoms that we have today. It’s, I guess it’s amazing to me because, I was one of the lucky ones that didn’t have to go to war. And you’re part of a story that will live forever. Let me ask you this: your experience 54:05 in the WASPs, in the military, and we’ll call it that because they finally recognized it in the 1970s, how did that shape you as a person? Mildred Jane Doyle: I get upset now with the protestors and people that disregard, well not disregard, but have no respect for the flag, and things that go on now, I think, they have �no idea what people went through to make the country as it is and to protest and do that type of thing, I get upset with them. Frank Boring: You raised a family. Did you instill into your children the values that you got from your parents, the education, for example, did you really stress to them the importance of education, 55:05 stress to them the importance of being who they are, to find their own voice. Mildred Jane Doyle: I think so, I have five children and one didn’t go to college, no problem there, but the others all did and they’ve all turned out very well. Frank Boring: Cause I was very impressed with the fact that when we first started this interview, you talked about your parents stressing education, stressing how important it was for you. And when you stop to think about the number of women of your generation whose parents basically said, get married, have kids, you want to be a nurse, all right, be a nurse, but they encouraged you to go beyond. Mildred Jane Doyle: I probably didn’t as much with my children, I don’t know, tried to but probably not as much as my parents did. Because it was really important to them. Because they said, when I got the notice to join the WASPs, they said, finish your education first and I said, I will. 56:05 Because I respected them for what they had gone through to put me through college. Frank Boring: Let’s go back to moments that you remember from the WASP period. We’ve gone chronologically through, we’ve kind of walked through, but are there any stories that kind of stick out for you? Things that happened when you were a WASP? Either on a flight or? Mildred Jane Doyle: I remember one flight, it was a cross-country, an extended cross-country flight, and it was in Advanced Training, we had to take a 500-mile cross-country flight. And it was from Sweetwater through Oklahoma and Arkansas and I think Louisiana and Mississippi, around that area. And course, we had our instrument training at that time, but we had never flown instruments 57:00 At 57:00, interview begins fast forwarding, then stops. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Doyle, Mildred Jane (Interview transcript and video), 2004 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Doyle, Mildred Jane Description An account of the resource Mildred Doyle was born in 1921 in Grand Rapids, Michigan and served in the Womens Airforce Service Pilots Corp. She became a pilot during college, and then was requested to serve in the WASP corp. She worked, after training, on Freeman Field in Seymour, Indiana as a test pilot and ferrying people around the area. She went home when the WASPs were disbanded, and served as a homemaker in Grand Rapids, Michigan. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings United States. Air Force World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Women Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2004-06-26 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DoyleJ Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8d73277e9d35f651fe92fbd57120c041.mp3 2ab5ff280ca4a5a84e608f0a95f2c8ef https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/263cd05a29cfc3ed35636028cff52c5a.pdf 0d303506d4fc1f79f41471be77b1dfba PDF Text Text Paola Doyle - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek October 9, 2018 1 Eric Gollannek: This is Eric Gollanneck and I'm here today with. Paola Doyle: Paola Doyle. EG: At the old school house in Douglas Michigan on October the 9th, 2018. This oral history is being collected as part of the Stories of Summer project, which is supported in part by a grant from the National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Program. Thanks for meeting with us today, we're interested in learning more about your family history and your experiences of summer in Saugatuck Douglas area. Can you repeat your name for us, your full name and spell it for us? PD: My first name is Paola, P A O L A, last name Doyle, D O Y L E. EG: That's great, yeah. And then uh, your maiden name? PD: My maiden name is Vacco, V A C C O. EG: That's great. Thank you so much. And is there any accents, uh, when spelling your name or special characters or. PD: No. EG No. Okay, great. Thank you. Alright, so let's start out, tell us a little bit, Paola, about where you grew up and about your family? PD: Okay. Be happy to, um, was born and raised in the Chicago land area. Uh, originally, uh, from Oak Park, Illinois. And then when I was about in fifth grade, my family moved to Oakbrook, Illinois. EG: Okay. PD: And that was very, spent most of my childhood living, um, and our summers were spent here in Saugatuck. EG: That's great. So you were born in Oak Park and, and, and grew up there. Tell us little bit about your, your parents as well. Their names and maybe a little bit about them. PD: Sure, uh Dad uh, his name was Aldo A L D O and my mom was Gloria and they as well, we're born and raised in Chicago. Our, my Dad, his family is the ones that have brought us to this area and they came, my dad grew up here in the summers from birth on. EG: Oh, wow. Okay. PG: And he often would tell us how he learned to swim in Lake Michigan. EG: Yeah. PD: As, as a toddler. So, uh, so we go back many, many years. �Paola Doyle - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek October 9, 2018 2 EG: Absolutely. Yeah. And do you have a sense of what we were, your father was born, your mother and father were born? PD: Uh, I, my, my mom was born in 1927 and my dad was born in 1928 so, yeah!. EG: Okay, same year as my grandfather as well. So, so he would have been coming here in the 1940s then or in 1930’s? PD: Correct. Yes. I, you know, I believe that the family cottage uh was built in 1931. EG: Okay. PD: I think that's, you know, if, if my memory serves me correct. EG: Do you remember much of how they, the talk about how they came here? Did they come by boat by steamer or did they drive? PD: You know, they would drive and my dad and his siblings, uh, my grandfather would drive them up because uh, my grandmother did not drive at that time. So my grandfather would drive them up and they would spend the summer here and he, you know, ran a grocery store uh, slash liquor store business in Chicago. So it was hard for him to be up here as much. So, uh, but the, my dad and his siblings and mom would spend the entire summer here. EG: Do you have any sense of what the timing of that was? I mean from Memorial Day to Labor Day, or, or? PD: Pretty much, yes, yes. When they would be out of school and so forth. And then I think as my dad got older, sometimes they would have to help out at the store and things like that. EG: Right. PD: Um, but he, uh, you know, loved spending the summers here and, and I do have some letters because in those days they didn't have the telephone in the cottage. And so I have letters that my grandfather wrote to my dad telling him of his chores he needed to do up here to help out my grandmother. EG: That’s fascinating to have that record. PD: I do, so it's fun to read those and you know, what was expected of them as a family and how lucky they were to be able to spend their summers here and you know, play and you know, and just really enjoy being here. EG: Right, right, oh that’s, that’s wonderful. So a family tradition going back. PD: Correct. EG: For a generation at least, maybe two. �Paola Doyle - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek October 9, 2018 3 PD: Yes. And then as we, as you know, as our parents got married, my dad and his siblings and had children, which would be my cousins, it continued and my grandmother would really spend the entire summer here from Memorial Day to Labor Day and us, which was nice for each family because each family back then as growing up, we were given two weeks of the summer and with, with our grandmother and our families and, and so, and a lot of times our families would overlap with our cousins, you know, switching of, you know, the, the weekends, you know, when it was, it would be one families turn to come and one family vacation was over. So we would usually spend a weekend with that family. And, you know, and just, I remember my grandmother, every time we would leave, she at the cottage door, she'd make the sign of the cross on all of us and say, God willing, we'll all be back next year. You know, so that was really special. Uh, you know, we love being here, you know, those two weeks. And, uh, you know, and then as time went on and as we got older, you know, everybody, you know, my grandmother passed on, you know, things changed a little bit and that the cottage was still in the family and shared for many, many years. [00:05:54] EG: Right, right. PD: And uh, families would come up together and just a place for us all to gather. EG: Right. Wow, yeah that’s amazing. Tell, tell, tell me a little bit about uh, the rest of your family now that you have, you had siblings? PD: I do. I have a sister and one brother. And so we to, you know, have many fond memories of being here and with all of our cousins. And I, you know, oftentimes people say, well, your family is so unique. But I think, I think that's unique to Saugatuck because, as we meet friends here and have become friends with others, you know, a lot of them have the same history we do. You know, it starts out with your grandparents coming here and it continues generation to generation. EG: And this, this extended family, it sounds like what you're talking about exactly. PD: Exactly, yes. EG: Some Aunts and Uncles there. PD: Yes. EG: A closer family than most people might, that other people might think of. PD: Exactly. EG: Their second cousins, third cousins. PD: Right. And even though a lot of my cousins, some of us have left the Chicago area, but everybody seems to make it back here during the summer, you know, coming from California, Minnesota, New York, Missouri, you know, wherever everybody makes it to Saugatuck every summer, which is really unique, I think, you know, it's just, and uh, and I remember my grandmother always saying, I want this �Paola Doyle - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek October 9, 2018 4 to be a place where you all come and be together as a family because your live's will get busy and take you many different places. And I often think if she were here today, how proud she'd be of her family, that all of us, her grandchildren, she had 17 grandchildren. How we are all very close. And we do spend a majority of our time here, you know, especially in the summer and in a lot of us have bought our own places over the years. So there's quite a few of us that, um, are starting to live your full time. EG: Right. PD: Which is really, unique. EG: Yeah, and that’s even more of a draw to bring people back. PD: Exactly. EG: To come here and... PD: Exactly, yes, you know. EG: Yeah, for sure, fascinating. So tell me a little bit of kind of, that, that background is really wonderful. Tell me a little bit about your first memories coming here, that you can recall. PD: Okay. I remember always, you know, packing the car, you know, in Illinois and getting it all ready and just as we would be driving up here singing songs in the car, playing you know, silly games in the car, you know, looking at different license plates and things like that. And it was just really kind of traditional what we would do in the car on the way up here. EG: Yeah. PD: Then when we'd get up here, you now, uh, my grandmother's cottage was on Park Street, you know, not too far from Mount Baldy, but I'm not sure how many cottages down, but 10 or 12. EG: Yeah, yeah. PD: And the first thing all of us kids would do was want to run up Mount Baldy [Laughs] and it was just, you know, run up the stairs and then of course not take the stairs back down, but go down the sand hill. EG: Right. PD: And roll, and, you know, so that was really what we would forward to doing. And then of course the beach was our big highlight, you know. EG: Sure. PD: Just to go uh, and play in the sand. And I remember always going into the cottage basement to want to see what inner tubes were there. EG: Right. �Paola Doyle - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek October 9, 2018 5 PD: And toys to play with at the beach, you know, as, as a little child know. And then, uh, we would go to the beach as a family and spend most of the day, they're while my grandmother would remain back at the cottage and be cooking. EG: Right. PD: And you know, we'd come home and she'd have pies baked and, you know, and every now and then we would pull her out to the beach. You know, she, she, you know, wasn't wanting to go every day because her enjoyment was being, you know, at the cottage doing things . EG: Space to relax. PD: Exactly, exactly. She had her little dog and she would wait for us to get home and, you know, and then we'd have our, our dinners and all of that and you know, and just sit and reminisce and tell stories and, you know, things like that. So those are my earliest memories. And then just remembering too, you know, making our list in the car of everything we wanted to do. EG: Yeah. [00:10:00] PD: And every year the list was pretty much the same, but it didn't matter. We still enjoy doing it. When I was a child, they used to have those, um, you know, pad, paddle boats that you'd, you know, paddle. So we would love to rent those and go down the river and of course go on, at that time it was called the Island Queen. It's the Star of Saugatuck today. EG: Right. PD: But doing that as well, you know, I mean, and then there used to be a miniature golf place in town. EG: Okay. PD: Where wix, the Gazebo is now. EG: Oh right, okay, sure. PD: Yes, so we would go and do that and of course get ice cream. And then there was the candy store, where Pumpernickel’s is and we would, always get to go pick penny candy out, you know, of the big tubs. And that always, you know, so much fun, you know. But it was definitely family time and you know, then, you know, our big night out was going to Holland to a movie, you know. [Laughs] So, you know. EG: So what, if I may ask, what, what year you were born in just in case? PD: I was born in 1959. EG: Okay. �Paola Doyle - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek October 9, 2018 6 PD: So, yeah. EG: So this would be the early 1960’s, mid 1960’s. PD: Correct. Yes. And then yes. And then as a teenager it was fun because we always wanted to be here with our cousins, you know. EG: Yeah. PD: That was when it, you know, uh, we started to meet some of the local kids [Laughs] EG: You could go out. PD: So we would go out, yes, you know? Exactly. You know, go to sunset, that was the big thing at night to meet all our friends at sunset, at the beach. EG: Okay. PD: You know, and throw a football around and kind of hang out with, you know, our new friends. And so that became, you know, really a highlight in our teenage years, you know. And uh, and at that point it would be, we would always ask for parents, can, you know, these cousin stay with us and that, so everybody started, you know, especially the girl cousins, there was a lot of us, you know, so a lot of fun doing that, and going to town and you know, those kinds of things. EG: Yeah. Oh, sounds wonderful. So I'm kind of picturing these two weeks that you have, that you were here and... PD: Yes. EG: And enjoying all that. PD: And, yes. EG: And, and your grandparents cottage, the family cottage was that was that near, near Mont Baldhead. PD: Correct. Yes, and it's still on the family today. My Aunt Paula that, uh, is, uh, she's the only surviving sibling you know. EG: Right. PD: Today. EG: Yeah. �Paola Doyle - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek October 9, 2018 7 PD: And uh, so she has that cottage, the family cottage and so, and a, so it's still enjoyed and we love to go back there and you know, sit around with her and tell stories at the table the same big tables in there and it is, it's really special. EG: Yeah, absolutely. That sense of place, and those spaces too, that you can... PD: Exactly. EG: Still. PD: Right. EG: Still the same sense of feeling, right? PD: Yes. EG: Association. PD: Yes. EG: Wow. PD: You know I remember, I remember the cottage has bunk beds and so a lot of times we would have multiple families there at one time, you know, the cousins, we would try to cram everybody in and it'd be nothing for like three or four people sleeping in a bunk bed, you know or we’d move the furniture out of the cottage to lay down, you know. EG: Yeah. PD: Sleeping bags. Exactly. So I, you know, I think at one point we had 26 people staying overnight. EG: Oh my gosh. PD: And I mean it's not, you know, it's not a big [laughs] space for sure. How so a lot of lot of fun memories like that, you know? So... EG: Wow, that’s wonderful. PD: Yeah. EG: So, so being on that side of the river, then you could have full access to Mount Baldhead. You could run down to the beach. Did you? PD: Yes. We did. EG: Explore in the woods. Did you get a chance to? �Paola Doyle - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek October 9, 2018 8 PD: Oh, definitely. We would walk to the old harbor, which. EG: Yeah. PD: You know, my understanding was the original channel from what my dad would say. And it would be fun, we would carve our initials in the trees and then the next year we would try and find that same tree. EG: Right. PD: You know, and then write something else. And, uh, and then of course we did that with our own children. Once I had my kids, you know, we'd get big walking sticks and walk through there and take our dogs and that. So that's tradition as well, you know, and uh, and then I'm, you know, way, and, I am assuming this was in the 70s, but we're, the ferry is, um, you know, not town side but the other side. EG: Yeah. PD: There used to be a store there and we'd call it the Ferry store. EG: Yeah. PD: And I'm not sure if that was the real name of it or not. EG: Yeah. PD: But we would love to go down there because they would have like tea cups and they would sell kind of knickknacks, souvenir-y type stuff, you know. But um, and then I remember it turning into a pizza... EG: Okay. PD: Uh, restaurant at one point and they would deliver pizza by boat. And I remember we thought that was so cool. EG: Yeah. PD: Because we would just a pizza from the cottage because they could run it down [laughs] the river! Right, exactly! And then, you know, so that was there for a few years and then... [00:15:00] EG: Yeah. PD: You know, and now it's not there at all and there's.. EG: Yeah. �Paola Doyle - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek October 9, 2018 9 PD: You know, but I do remember we would love to go to the ferry store. You know, how to look at all the tea cups and.. EG: Right. PD: You know, knickknacks that they would have in there. EG: Did you ride the, did you ride the chain ferry? PD: Yes. EG: Frequently? PD: All the time. EG: As well to get back to town? Yeah? PD: We did, we did. EG: On a daily basis? PD: Because our parents would, you know, they'd give us a little money to go to town to buy our ice cream cone. EG: Yeah. PD: You know, so we would do that. And I think one of the memories I really have is we would walk to the Oval Beach a lot. EG: Yeah. PD: Because we would want to get there. This is more as teenagers, but we'd want to get there like 10 in the morning, you know. EG: Get a good spot. PD: Yeah, get a good spot, and you know, sun tanning was important. [Laughs] You know and so, no and it was funny in our parents wouldn’t want to come until like 2 in the afternoon, you know? And uh, so they would say just go, just go, you know. And so we would walk, I just remember walking and cars, you know, every car would like stop and say, you know, would you girls like a ride? EG: Yeah. PD: You know, and you know, and it was so sincere. EG: Yeah. �Paola Doyle - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek October 9, 2018 10 PD: And you know when you'd get in and people just, you know, and I think of how we are so cautious today. EG: Right. PD: You now, but I, I just think how simple it was back then. Although, you know, if I see people walking, I will ask them if they need a ride, you know. EG: Right, yeah. PD: And I think, and I still see that friendliness today here in the town. I really do. And so I remember doing that and that, and running in the dunes of course, and walking to the lighthouse and... EG: Right. PD: And then I remember we thought that the Beach House, um, I think it was when it was privately owned and, uh, they had the best hamburgers, you know. EG: Yeah. [Laughs] PD: We couldn't wait to have like an Oval Beach hamburger [Laughs] You know so, it was like, that was our big treat, you know? EG: Yeah. PD: So, I remember doing that and, but we did, we would go on lots of walks through the woods and down the road. Um, and, uh, you know, we would just in the fall we would collect acorns. So yeah, I remember doing that, and then you know, we would paint rocks, you know. Collect rocks, and, you know, my grandmother would paint them and lining them all up outside in the back of the cottage. She was big into feeding the birds. So we would in the morning go out in the back and the woods and you know. EG: Right. PD: Do all of that. EG: Yeah. PD: So a lot of good memories. EG: Oh that’s wonderful. Did you typically walk more often than not, walk down the road to go to Oval Beach or? PD: Oh, yes. EG: Or go over the dunes sometimes? �Paola Doyle - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek October 9, 2018 11 PD: Sometimes we'd climb Mt. Baldy and go that way. EG: Is tough when you’re carrying gear. PD: Exactly. You know, but it's funny, I don't remember as a child or even my parents, you know, having all the beach gear that we have today, you know. EG: Right. PD: They brought a blanket. EG: Yeah. PD: And maybe a little cooler. EG: Right. PD: But you know, today it's like we have the umbrellas and the chairs... EG: Righ. PD: …and the little tables and... EG: Yeah. PD: You know, they didn't have all that lets you are just your blanket and... EG: Right. PD: That was pretty much it. EG: Simple. Simple times, right there there... PD: Exactly!. EG: That you were uh, doing new things. PD: Exactly. EG: So less gear, but you were able to just kind of have that quieter space out there. Did you ever, radio, was music at the beach, or? PD: We did, we would bring our, uh, radio and you know, play, you know, play our tunes. EG: Yeah. �Paola Doyle - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek October 9, 2018 12 PD: And things like that. And uh, and there were times we would even like start dancing on the beach. And, you know, I remember when the movie grease came out and you know, the soundtrack. EG: Yeah, yeah. PD: That was a big thing you know, that was, you know, we would all gather on the beach and do our thing and you know, we would make pyramids and you know, and, and you could rent the little surfboards at the beach and those big tire, inner tubes, you know. EG: Right. PD: So, I remember doing that, you know, and uh, it just, you know, it was, you know it was just fun. You know, like we were, we would be outside from morning you know, to night, go home and, you know, I'm talking more as our teenage years and go home and have our family dinner. And then the girls, we would love to go to town. We would do the same thing every night. You know, walk around town. EG: Yeah. PD: And then we would get our ice cream and sit on the corner by the drug store and we would giggle and you know, and it was just, it was just really old fashion fun. And, which is really what we've instilled in our own children. You know, coming up here now that we have kids and... EG: Yeah. How did that, how did that work? When you would go to Saugatuck, go to town with the chain ferry? How late did that run? Or did you have to? PD: You know, it only would run until dusk. EG: Okay. PD: You know, so if we were there later. EG: Yeah. PD: You know, someone would pick us up. EG: Okay, you could call them or something? PD: You know, my dad or, yes. Of course we didn't have cell phones back... EG: Yeah. PD: …then, you know, but or we'd have a set time, you know, my dad would say, okay, and we always, it was always in front of the drug store. That was our... EG: Okay. PD: You know, we'll pick you up at the drugstore, you know, pick you up at the drugstore, you know. �Paola Doyle - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek October 9, 2018 13 EG: Yeah. You had to do some more planning than we do today where we just leave things wide open. [00:19:58:00] PD: Exactly, exactly. You know, you can just text, hey I’m here. But no, back then it was, you had to have a plan, you know, so we. EG: Do you remember people you met? I mean, especially as you got more into the, you know, preteen or teenage years that you met? Did you, where were they from? Where, was it people from town? Was it from the area, from all over? Did anything stand out? PG: Well we knew some, families, you know, people that had colleges like us down the road. RG: Yeah. PD: And so we would become friendly, you know, so some of them were Chicago people that were also from Chicago. EG: Yeah. PD: But ironically it was, it's funny because now that we have our own children, when our kids would meet the kids up here and they would actually be hanging out with, you know, that generation, third generation of people that we hung out with, you know? EG: Okay, yeah, yeah. PD: So it's kind of passed down, you know. Um, so that's really neat. So some, a lot of people like that. EG: Yeah. PD: Just other cottage owners we've um, become friendly with over the years and remain friends. And then we didn't meet some local you know, kids and I think we mostly met them at the beach because I'm not, you know if my memory serves me right. Just talking, you know, boys walking up to us at the beach. EG: Right. PD: And sitting down and [laughs] you know, that kind of thing. EG: Right. PD: So then we would kind of, you know, hang out with them. And then, like I said, the big thing was to meet at sunset, you know. EG: Yeah. �Paola Doyle - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek October 9, 2018 14 PD: You know, we would meet and then figure out what we're doing, whether we're having a bonfire on the beach there at night somewhere, you know, and uh, that kind of thing. We would do that as well. And uh, or gone to town and walk around. And then of course as we got older, older and we could get into like the Crow bar, you know. [Laughs] EG: Yeah. PD: We would do that a little bit, you know. So that was more of like in our twenties, you know. EG: Okay. PD: Early twenties or... EG: So this would’ve been... PD: I think it was 18 though when we were... EG: Okay. PD: To get in. EG: Okay. PD: I think that, you know. EG: So this would have been in the, like the late 70’s by that point, or? Am, I, is my math wrong? PD: Um, yeah, early 80’s, early 80’s. Yes, because I want to say was just starting college and... EG: Okay. PD: …You know, that kind of thing, so. EG: Yeah. PD: Um, so that was, you know, and then, uh, that was our big thing just, you know, at that point then we all want to be up here with our cousins. EG: Yeah. PD: You know, that kind of thing. EG: A lot of fun. PD: And then, exactly. So we would do that and plan a weekend here or there in the fall. Like you know, we would, and then our parents would start letting us come up by ourselves. So that was like huge. [Laughs] You know? �Paola Doyle - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek October 9, 2018 15 EG: Right, right. PD: But we were a little bit older then. EG: A big game changer for sure. PD: Exactly. Exactly. EG: Do you remember much being in that area where your family cottage located in the old harbor and that, did you have any interaction with folks from oxbow from the art school or, or explore that property at all? Do you, any, any memories of that? PD: You know what, we would walk down there and things like that. EG: Yeah. PD: Um, I remember my dad telling stories about them as children being involved down there, you know. EG: Okay. Alright, yeah. PD: And their neighbor next door was very involved in Oxbow. EG: Okay. PD: And I remember her talking about classes and... EG: Okay. PD: … things like that they would do. Um, and then our children have taken classes down there. EG: Okay. PD: You know, so, um, I very much support the Oxbow program, I think it's a great thing. And, but um, so yes, go to some of the things that they sponsor, but I personally didn't take any classes there myself. EG: Right, yeah. PD: But you know, our kids have, my kids have, you know, done... EG: Right. PD: …Some of art classes and things like that, you know. EG: But don’t, don't remember much about one, one way or another about, you know, is this kind of mysterious place or, or... �Paola Doyle - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek October 9, 2018 16 PD: Or sneaking down there at night. EG: There’s some [inaudible] the ferry store is a place that I know... PD: Yes. EG: …people from Oxbow would. PD: I remember seeing a lot of the Oxbow students walking down the road.. EG: Yeah. PD: Like, walking to and from, past our cottage. EG: Right. PD: I would remember that, and I do remember we would try and go down there at night and scare, we’d scare, we'd scare ourselves. So I don't even think it was that scary [laughing] but we would be like, you know, down there late at night, you know. So I remember doing that kind of thing, you know? But yeah, so and uh, and uh, in fact I walked down there last winter uh, with Renee, my cousin. EG: Yeah. PD: We went to a talk down there, it was like in February and it brought back a lot of memories, you know [laughs] We were trucking through the snow and, [laughs] you know, parking at a certain spot and... EG: Yeah. PD: …Walking down. But, and I can remember the Oxbow students being at the Oval Beach doing their painting. EG: Oh, okay, yes!. PD: You know, sitting out in the, you know, out in the dunes. And we would take walks on the beach and you would see them doing their, you know, landscapes and their seascapes, pictures and things like that. And sometimes they would talk to us and ask us to pose for certain things, you know... EG: Wow!. PD: …in their pictures… . EG: Yeah, yeah. PD: So I'm not famous, I don't think it ever [laughs] I don't think they ever went anywhere. But, but I do remember that, you know, I do remember seeing a lot of them. �Paola Doyle - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek October 9, 2018 17 [00:25:02] EG: That would leave an impression for sure. PD: Exactly, exactly. I do remember seeing that. EG: Yeah, did you ever spend any time in Douglas or do you have any memories of coming to Douglas? PD: You know. EG: Those years. PD: I do remember coming with my dad because I believe there was a little old, like a newspaper stand. EG: Okay. PD: Or a store and they had donuts, and I remember we would come every day because he went by his newspaper and I don't remember exactly where it was. I mean, I know it was down the main strip. But we would then, we would get donuts and his newspaper. So I do remember doing that. You know, so those are my memories of Douglas. You know, we, um, you know, I don't remember it having the stores and it has today. EG: Right. PD: Um, but I do remember that store, you know, we would come down. EG: Yeah, yeah. PD: You know, so, yeah, yeah. And you know, fishing, you know, we would go and fish, you know, outside, down by the river, by the cottage. We had to like a, you know, a little dock there. So we would go and do that and try and catch fish, [laughs] you know, so we, you know, we do those things, and like I said, a lot of hiking in the woods, and looking for treasures and... EG: Right. PD: You know, we would try and find [Laughs] EG: Did, did you ever explore the Singapore site? Would that have been probably too... PD: I don't remember. EG: More closed off by that point. [Inaudible] PD: Yeah, I don't remember doing that. EG: Yeah. �Paola Doyle - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek October 9, 2018 18 PD: I don't, I remember my parents talking at great length about the pavilion and things they did, you know, when there, through, in their early marriage of their dances they would go to. EG: Yeah. PD: I remember them talking a lot about that, you know, I do remember we would spend a lot of time at, Goshorn Lake. EG: Okay. PD: And one of the reasons we liked to go there is because the water was always warmer than Lake Michigan. So, [laughs] so I do, we, you know, and that was like a really big treat for us to go there. You know, when we were up here, we would maybe get to go two or three times during our two weeks that we were here. EG: Yeah. PD: We would love running up the sand hill, it was huge hill. And then in those days you could actually see the dune rides going back there. EG: Okay, yeah. PD: We remember hearing all the people screaming, you know... EG: Yeah. PD: …As you're going down and so would climb the hill to try and watch that. EG: Right. PD: Um, and I remember we liked Goshorn because they had a slide and they had diving boards, and you could do all of that. And of course I do remember the stories about it supposedly was a bottomless lake, you know. EG: Oh wow. PD: And people would, you know, my dad, you know, and my brother was very adventurousome and he would want to try and swim all the way across. And my dad would say, no you can't because we get tired or you get a cramp, you know. So I remember my dad letting him do it, but my dad would go along like on a surfboard, you know. EG: Yeah. PD: Or something in case he would get tired, you know. EG: Right. �Paola Doyle - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek October 9, 2018 19 PD: So I remember um, him doing that. But we did, we always liked to go there because it was warm, the water was warm. EG: Right. PD: And we could swim in that water. EG: Yeah, sure. PD: And it wasn't as choppy. [laughs] . EG: Share, share a little bit, we talked about your siblings earlier, but just their names and relative ages, relative to you. PD: Sure, sure. Uh, my sister, uh, is Glory Ann, and she is eight years older than I am. EG: Okay, yeah. PD: And then my brother is Jim and he is four years older than I am. EG: Okay, alright. PD: So, and uh, so it was fun. So I was always the little sister that tagged along, you know, and my sister was interesting because she grew up in the 60s. EG: Yeah. PD: You know, was her era, and, and actually I was talking to her about this this weekend because I was with her and she remembers when there was a big rock concert up here and it was held at Goshorn Lake. EG: Right, yeah, yeah. Did she go to that? PD: She did. EG: Okay. PD: She did. EG: Yeah. PD: And what I, what I remember is just the massive amount of people that infiltrated the town and have people were sleeping everywhere. EG: Yeah. �Paola Doyle - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek October 9, 2018 20 PD: Even when we woke up in the morning at our cottage door, people like sleeping on our front lawn area, you know there was just... EG: Wow. Which is a long ways from Goshorn Lake. PD: …Exactly. EG: Yeah. PD: Exactly. I mean they were just all over Park Street. I mean, sleeping on people's grass. I mean it was crazy. You know, that's what I remember. EG: Yeah. PD: So she remembers that and she remembers meeting, I don't know if they were keeping track of all the guys they met her and her girlfriend [laughs] it was something like 83 or something. [Laughs] And so, so her memories were kind of fun and you know, and she was saying how her and her girlfriend accepted like three or four different dates with different guys for the same night because they can't remember which one they really wanted to go out with so... EG: Right. PD: They would hide in the bedroom at the cottage and give my grandmother a signal. You know, when the guys would come up to the door... EG: Right. [00:30:03] PD: …And they’d go, no that’s, you know... EG: Yeah. PD: Because our cottage was very open so you could see over and like, no that's not the one I want. EG: Send him away. PD: Send him away. And then another group came and they're like, no. But my grandmother liked them. She started talking to them. So she invited them in for pie. And so [Laughs] my sister goes, I remember being stuck in the bedroom with her friend. EG: Yeah. PD: Because her grandma was having these boys have pie and you know. [Laughs] EG: Right. �Paola Doyle - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek October 9, 2018 21 PD: And then the ones that they wanted to go out with came, but you know, you could go out because they were hiding in the bedroom. [Laughs] . EG: Oh!. PD: You know, so, so lots of you know, fun stories like that. So she has a lot of stories to that nature, you know. EG: Right. PD: But she said it was a crazy time, you know, and how the town. And then she said the town kind of, you know, went back to... EG: Became quieter. PG: …Became quieter, going back to more a family, you know. EG: Yeah. PD: But she remembers it being, you know, um, just crazy up here, you know, with that rock concert and being there, you know, and how many people were in the town and you know, so when she said they had like makeshift jails in the town, you know, for crowd control and things like that. EG: Right. PD: So, yeah. So, I don't remember all that but. EG: Do you remember much of, you mentioned your grandmother and serving pie to these boys and that, uh you remember your parent’s reaction or other family reaction to, to all of this going on? You know, this kind of? PD: You know what they were to what the, when the big crowds for here you mean? EG: Yeah, yeah. Just the general shenanigans and, and... PD: Yeah, I remember my dad being very concerned and I remember him going out the next morning and looking at all these people sleeping, you know, [laughs] and passed out on our lawn. EG: Yeah. PD: And he just said, first he asked if they were all okay and you know. EG: Yeah. PD: And so forth and then they said, I think it's time you move on. [Laughs] So that was kind of his nice way of saying like, you can leave now. �Paola Doyle - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek October 9, 2018 22 EG: Yeah. PD: You shouldn't be here, and is private property kind of thing. But you know, first he asked if they were all okay or if they need anything, you know. And uh, you know things like that, but uh. EG: Sounds, sounds like pretty accepting attitude. PD: Yes, you know. EG: High level of tolerance. PD: As long as it wasn't his kids, [laughs] my dad was a little over protective, you know, so. EG: Did your, did your sister get in any trouble or was there any reaction to this, you now, her being at the festival? PD: You know, she said my dad like picked her up or something? EG: Okay. PD: So they can go, but he was, he would drive and pick them up, you know. EG: Okay. PD: Like he didn't let them drive. But she said there was so many cars and things that it was just kind of crazy, you know, so. EG: Yeah. PD: And uh, because I think she was probably, she was in college then because I was probably junior high, I assume. EG: Okay. PD: So she must, she was you know, college age, but… EG: Right. PD: Yes, so, uh, you know, he kept close tabs [Laughs] EG: Right. PD: And uh, she had a curfew, you know, [laughs] so, but um, so lot of good memories like that. A lot of memories of playing games at the cottage. We would just, you know, sit and play board games and cards and things like that, you know, and uh, you know, or we'd be up here and you know, we'd call another relative in Chicago. My Dad would say, why don't you come up, you know, and they'd get in the car and they wouldn't think twice about, you know, making the drive up… �Paola Doyle - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek October 9, 2018 23 EG: Yeah. PD: And we’d all, you know, we'd be so excited our cousins are coming, and you know, what kind of thing. EG: Yeah. That’s neat. PD: So, it was, it was really, oh and then one of our big treats was to go to the drug store for, you know, sit at the soda fountain. That was fun. One year we had a water fight there all the cousins started, you know, with our straws, kind of… EG: Oh boy. PD: Spritzing water at one another, and before you knew it, glasses of water being thrown in. The, the lady that ran the Soda Fountain, all she did at that point was walk out and she gave everybody mops and she said, your kids could clean it all up now. [Laughs] We’re like, we’ll be glad to. [Laughs] So, yeah , you know, so it was kind of a fun story. She was a good sport about it, because you know, it's kind of started and then one siblings like here take this and you know, and then before you knew it, that was a big water fight at the soda fountain. EG: Wow. PD: Yeah, you know all in good fun. But yeah, not thinking about the mess we were making. EG: Right. PD: You know, so she was very nice. She just now you can all clean it up. [Laughs] EG: She handled it well. PD: She did. She did. She was a good sport, you know. EG: Yeah. Any other, any other moments, you know, mayhem or you know, shenanigans that you all got into, or saw other people get into? In town or at the beach, or you around? That you want, that you're willing to share. PD: [laughs] Right, right. You know, I think, like I said, I think our, you know, our, our, the memories that we have is just really being together as a family… EG: Yeah. PD: And just sharing that time. In fact, it was, I think it was three years ago, four years ago, we just celebrated 100 years of our family coming up to Saugatuck. So we had a big family reunion. That was really, really special, and everybody wrote down their memories in a book and one of the relatives put the book together, I should’ve, I should have brought it to show you. But, so that was really neat, you know, and, and really most of, when you read the memories of all of our family, it is just about all being together and you know, singing songs and playing games and going on walks and you know, just being �Paola Doyle - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek October 9, 2018 24 together and cooking, you know, barbecuing out in the back of the cottage and you and everybody being out there and going for ice cream. That was our big thing, you know, um, like, you know, doing things in the river, you know, um, there was a big, somebody had a rope swing down on Park Street. [Laughs] So I can remember we would all like to go on this rope swing over the river and then fall into the river. You know? [00:36:00] EG: Yeah. PD: So that was kind of neat, and then, that got taken down. But, that was fun. Or swinging from the vines, you know, in the woods. EG: Did, did you all spend time in the Kalamazoo River at all? Or, not, not really? PD: We would swim in it, yeah. EG: A little bit. PD: Yeah, we did. We would, you know, um, you know where we would row? We had a little row boat we'd row across to town. You know, that was like a big thing to do, you know. Um, but yes, we would, we would, uh, you know, swim a little bit in the river and, uh, in front of the cottage. I wouldn't do it today, but [Laughs] you know, back then. So we did, uh, you know, and I don't think there was as much boat traffic back then, not of course as today. EG: Okay, okay. Yeah. PD: Yeah, that's a little bit, definitely more built up. Remember loving the thunder storms up here, especially in the cottage. You could hear the rain on the roof, and you know, we would get flashlights and you know, it just kind of cuddle up under blankets and listening to the acorns fall out on the roof and you know, some really good lightning storms, you know, we would really enjoy, you know, love that as well. You know, and uh, so a lot of, um, you know, like I said, it was just a lot of really quality family time spent together. And just a place where we would all gather and share those times together. And I know that's what we, my husband and I and my siblings wanted for our children to grow up here in the summers as well and you know, and, and they have. So it's really fun to see what they've done. You know, my girls are in their early twenties now, but they participated in the sailing program down at the little yacht club and made their, so they called them their summer friends. So they would look forward to coming up here every summer and doing that and doing pretty much the same thing. EG: Yeah. PD: Going to beach and going to town, riding around, checking everything out. And even today when they come up, mom, let's just drive around town, you know, they like to just, you know, circle around. We do that and they have their friends up here now and then… EG: Yeah. �Paola Doyle - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek October 9, 2018 25 PD: In their teenage years they got part time jobs up here. EG: Okay. Yeah. Tell us, tell us a little bit about your, your, I guess you, you said you went off to college as well. Where did you go to school? PD: I did. I went to Elmhurst College. EG: Okay, yeah. PD: Became a teacher, so… EG: Wonderful. PD: Taught for many years and I'm actually uh, doing some subbing up here. EG: Oh, great. [Laughs] PD: Which is fun, so, its filling. EG: Yeah. PD: I'm enjoying that. And uh, and uh, so yeah. So my job allowed me to be here in the summer… EG: Right, because you had the summer time off. PD: …Because I had my summers off! I know. EG: Yeah. PD: In fact, my oldest daughter, that's why she picked teaching… EG: Okay. PD: Because she was like, then I could be a Saugatuck all summer! Like, there you go! EG: Tell us a bit about your, uh, your, your kids. PD: Sure. I have two daughters. EG: Yeah. PD: Olivia and Nina. EG: Yeah. PD: And, uh, we bought, my husband and I bought our own place back in 2002. �Paola Doyle - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek October 9, 2018 26 EG: Okay. PD: And which was wonderful because we would spend our summers here. My husband would commute back and forth. Uh, he usually would try and come up on a Thursday night and drive right into Chicago… EG: Yeah. PD: …Monday morning before work. EG: Yeah. PD: And, uh, the girls and I would spend, you know, all summer here, pretty much, you know, go back a few times here and there. But I think because they started growing up here in the summer when they were, you know, like, uh, I think Olivia was in second grade and Nina was in kindergarten, that they were able to establish friends up here and things like that. And they would participate, in like I said, in the little sailing program, they would take art lessons, did library programs. So it really became their summer, you know, their summer friends and then their friends back home and then as they got older we would allow them to bring friends up and things like that. And so that was fun for them. And so they've always loved coming up here and they too are with all my cousin's children, because that's the next generation. And they did the same things we did have bonfires on the beach and you know, and hang out and go out for boat rides and, and do all the same things that we did and play the games and things like that. So it's really nice and they still come up frequently today and I'd love to see all their friends. And you know, everybody like, like us, their friends all come back here every summer, you know, the ones that are all living elsewhere now. And some of them were local families and some were families like them. And we had introduced the area to some of our close friends and they now too and places here. So it’s kind of like everybody falls in love with that. You know, it's, it's just a really great place and I look forward to when I have grandchildren so I can pass it on to them as well. Keep it going. [Laughs] [00:40:57] EG: Absolutely. PD: Definitely. Definitely. EG: For sure. So tell us, kind of looking back, you've got a multigenerational perspective. Uh, what are some things that you, you know, kind of looking at the community, things that have changed, things that have remained the same about the area. PD: You know what? I think the things that I think that have stayed the same, at least for me, is when I come here and now that I'm living here full time, I just feel so totally safe here. And I just feel that it is the friendliness of everybody. You know, people you don't even know, say hi to you, you know, walking down the street or if you're sitting in a restaurant, and I think that's what makes this town so unique is just the, how everybody reaches out. And for being a small town, you know, I do find, you know, everybody, [pause] you know, is willing to share information and just share being together, sharing their togetherness with each other. And, um, I find that really unique. You know, the people, you know, really �Paola Doyle - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek October 9, 2018 27 care. I love that you can walk down the street and not everybody's like looking at their cell phone. You know, I mean, um, and you know, and I love going to the post office to get my mail. You know? You see people in there with their dogs, [laughs] you know, and, and that, so I think that in itself is very unique and the charm that the town offers, you know, and its uniqueness and not having chain restaurants on every corner and things like that. I think the quaintness of it, um, I'd like the artistic aspect of the town, you know, um, I think that's really unique and special. Um, and I, I think when I was growing up, a little bit of that was there, I think it's always been there, the art side of it, you know, with Oxbow and I remember Button’s Gallery being here forever. I remember when it was down on Center Street towards the Lake, you know, so I remember, but I don't remember there being as many as there are today. So I think it's been really nice to see how it's grown in the arts and what the SCA offers. You know, what we can pass on to, you know, like my kids were able to participate in a lot of the programs offered you know, by the SCA and things like that. Um, you know, I don't remember [pause] is it, again, I wasn't here all summer as a child, but I don't remember taking part in a lot of the things that my kids have, you know, the library programs and things like that. So… EG: More structured activities. Or more opportunities? PD: Sure. Right, I think it offers a lot for them to explore and, and, uh, my kids were always outside growing up, you know, I mean, they would set up a lemonade stand at the end of our driveway. [Laughs] I mean, just, they really, they played outside and compared to when they would be back in Chicago, you know, it was just, I just think it's very unique in that sense, you know? Um, and that's what I love about it. You know, I just love the coziness of it. And, and plus that everything's relatively so close and it's just going for walks. You know, my husband and I do that a lot now. We, you know, after dinner, we’ll either walk on the beach or we'll walk to downtown Douglas, you know, to get our mail, you know, things like that, and that makes it unique. So I, um, you know, um, but I don't think a whole lot to changed too much. I mean, you know, some things have come and gone, you know. Um, but I like the fact the music in the park, you know, we, that’s our, we love to do that on Wednesday nights and go and sit and you know, just the fellowship that the town brings. I think they do a great job of that. EG: Yeah. PD: So I do, I enjoy that. EG: Yeah. That's wonderful. PD: Yeah. EG: So, uh, a question we’ve asked everyone doing these interviews, remembering that we're saving these interviews that someone may be listening to this recording 50 or more years from now, what would you like them most to know about your life and about the community right now? PD: I guess, thinking back, I, and I do, I, I feel so truly blessed to have this part of my life because I think it really takes you to a place where, like I said, you feel safe but you also feel so content. And I think the happiness that it brings, it's like as soon as I would pull off the exit and to get here, you know, you're just feeling that, like that special feeling that you get when you arrive here. And, um, the uniqueness. And I just think that the towns full of love, I really do. You know? And I think that it's a happy place and I think everybody's, always, generally happy, no matter, you know, you're walking down the street, whether �Paola Doyle - Interviewed by Eric Gollannek October 9, 2018 28 you see people eating ice cream cone and even people that are working, you know, the day to day working, you know, I can pull in somewhere and see, you know, uh, somebody, you know, working on an electric line, you know, they're like, hey, how you doing? [Laughs] You know? I mean, I just feel it. It's just such a friendly, welcoming area. And that's what I really love about it. EG: Yeah. PD: I really do. EG: Great testimonial for the, for the character of the place. Anything else that you'd like to share that I haven't asked you about? PD: You know Eric? I think, you know, I, I can't think of anything other than just that. Like I said, I'm feel very blessed that I have had my childhood spent here and that my children and I hope my grandchildren and I hope it continues on and just because I think it is such a wonderful place and the feeling that it gives everybody and I, it's, it's very hard to describe unless you experience it. I think, you know, it really is. And, and I know we've been friends that we have here for the first time, they're like, wow, you know, and, and it's not even that we push it on people, it's just they, you know, um, just feel that themselves. So, you know, when they walk down the street and you know, that just the presence of the whole area, you know, so. I do, I think it's just a charming, charming place and just a wonderful place to be. EG: Well, that's great. Well, thank you so much Paola… PD: Thank you. EG: …for your time, and for sharing your stories and memories with us. Uh, and with that… PD: Thank you. A pleasure. EG: Yeah, that will conclude our interview today. [00:47:54] � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Summers in Saugatuck-Douglas Collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Kutsche Office of Local History Description An account of the resource Collection contains images and documents digitized and collected through the project "Stories of Summer," supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant. The collection aims to document the twin lakeshore communities of Saugatuck and Douglas, Michigan, as they transformed through the state's bustling tourism industry and acceptance of minorities. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1910s-2010s Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Various Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a> Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Saugatuck (Mich.) Douglas (Mich.) Michigan, Lake Allegan County (Mich.) Beaches Sand dunes Outdoor recreation Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Saugatuck-Douglas History Center Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project) Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Text Language A language of the resource English Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-07_SD-DoyleP-20181009 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Doyle, Paola Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-10-09 Title A name given to the resource Paola Doyle (Audio interview and transcript), 2018 Description An account of the resource Paola Doyle was raised in Oak Park and Oakbrook, Illinois and spent her childhood summers in Saugatuck. In this interview, Paola remembers visiting her grandparents' cottage near Mt. Baldhead during the summers as a child, and bringing her own children to Saugatuck during the summers as an adult. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Gollannek, Eric (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Saugatuck (Mich.) Allegan County (Mich.) Outdoor recreation Beaches Oral history Audio recordings Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Stories of Summer project, Kutsche Office of Local History. Grand Valley State University Relation A related resource Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ee64eb7041c99c44d613ac3dc3ce7549.mp4 f4a102244067968c454c570027afce85 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3900b3f503d07e8a96c255e00298f3d8.pdf 710bbfb821a2928d03816561c86952e5 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Projects Richard Doyle (1:48:02) Back ground information (00:15)             Was born in Bellows Falls, Vermont on September 6th 1945 (00:17) He has lived his entire life in Vermont and still resides there. (00:26) He grew up in a relatively small town of 3,500 residents. (00:33) He attended high school and graduated in 1963. (00:43) He attended a Catholic grade school. (00:59) He attended a prep school after high school for a year in 1963 before attending the University of Vermont for 4.5 years (approx 1964-1969) (1:14) He Graduated from the University of Vermont in May of 1969 (1:27) He was a history major. (1:32) His mother was a hairdresser. (1:50) His father worked his first career on railroads and his second career in a machine shop. (2:00) His degree was awarded to him while in basic training. (2:44) He received his draft notice in January or February of 1969. (3:03) Basic Training (3:05)                After receiving his notice he went to Fort Dix, New Jersey. (3:10) He didn’t believe the army would waste his talents by placing him in the infantry. (3:20) 90% of his company was national guardsmen and after they finished their training they were going home. He realized that for him this would not be the case. (3:49) He received orders to undergo advanced infantry training. (4:43) He went to Fort Lewis Washington for his infantry training. (4:50) After his testing he was interviewed and offered an opportunity to attend Language school or a position in the Officer Candidate School. (5:00) He went directly from basic training to advanced Infantry training with no leave in between. (6:15) Advanced infantry training lasted 6-9 weeks. (6:23) In advanced Infantry training (AIT) there was much more running than in basic as well as educate in squad tactics checking for booby traps and more field problems. (6:50) In AIT he was also trained on TOWS, LAWS, and bazookas. (7:36) He was trained on the M14 in basic training but switched to the M16 for AIT. (7:48) After finishing training he was given a 2 week leave before being sent to Vietnam. (8:42) He was sent out to Vietnam from Fort Lewis, Washington. (4:08) All the men he saw in AIT were primarily draftees. (9:46) A very small number of the men he trained with received order to Germany. (10:16) � He attempted to apply for NCO school however he was unable to be accepted because his infantry score on his tests was too low. (10:40) Arrival in Vietnam (13:20)           He flew from Sea-Tac Airport in Seattle Washington, to Alaska, to Japan, and finally to Long Binh Vietnam. (13:50) The heat in Vietnam was overwhelming. (14:06) Being infantry he was immediately assigned for guard duty at Long Binh. This shift was often at night which led to him having free time during the day. (14:54) He still had to make formation to see where and when he would be assigned. (15:28) He was assigned to 1st infantry Division who at the time (October 1969) were headquartered in Di An and Lai Khe(15:40) He flew in a C-140 to Dau Tieng which was a headquarters. (16:11) Between Dau Tieng and Long Binh he was sent to Di An where he received some training. (16:40) While in Di An he was given 3-4 days of sniper training. This entailed training on the M-14 at extended distances and then with a scope. (16:53) He did not have a high enough score to go on from sniper school. (18:03) He was offered a job as a clerk but did not get high enough scores on his typing test. (18:53) Service in the Black Lions (the 2nd battalion, 28th infantry) (19:20)            He was assigned to the 2/28 Infantry. The Black Lions. (19:22) He joined the company while it was in the field. He was told to take his underwear and throw it away because it was useless. (19:48) They were staying at a very very small firebase. It had sand bag bunkers and mortar pits. (20:35) While stationed at this base the men took part in mine sweeping activity. This must be done every day. (22:10) At the time of his arrival, 1st infantry had been operating primarily against Viet Cong units. (22:22) The area in witch he was stationed was booby trap rich. (23:30) In the time he was stationed there, there was never a mine uncovered on the road. (23:50) There were several close calls with booby traps while out in the field. (24:27) One of their responsibilities was to set up perimeters around rice paddies so that the VC couldn’t steal rice. (25:00) One of his tasks also entailed covering a sniper who was set in a small tower. (25:55) Contact with the VC entailed occasional sniper fire as well as encounters with bunkers. (26:34) Clearing of a bunker (January 2nd 1970) (27:30)  His platoon leader was informed that something suspicious was found and he was eager for any action. (27:55) �       Shortly after investigating, there was a massive explosion. (29:03) 2 VC bunkers were found. When the platoon leader investigated the bunker he set off a booby trap. This explosion hit both the platoon leader and his RTO. (29:30) Being the first one on the scene, he saw the RTO first and when he turned him over to look at him he knew instantly that he was dead. (30:35) 10 days before this incident he was the platoon leader’s RTO. (31:37) The Platoon leader wasn’t killed by the explosion but he was unconscious. (31:58) By using the men’s shirts and 2 poles, a stretcher was made to carry the platoon leader back to a medevac. (33:16) This was his first encounter with death and injury in the war. (34:00) Service in the Black Lions (cont.) (34:50)     At this time, his unit was preparing to be taken out of Vietnam in late January of 1970 (34:56) He felt that every life that was lost after the president said the U.S. would pull out of Vietnam was a wasted life. (36:18) He, as well as many others, was told that his unit would be disbanded and that he was to go somewhere else. (36:48) This mentality crated a bond that lead to very significant friendships with soldiers he served with. (37:08) The Rubber Plantation. (37:38)      For Christmas, a party was held in this field where the men were given beer. (3 beers per person) (37:57) After the part was over the men were placed back in the field and he was placed into the jungle next to the [Michelin] Rubber Plantation. (38:27) Here he found a bunker complex that was 6-7 bunkers. They were very fresh. (38:35) He was assigned to 12 o’clock to 3 o’clock for a 100 meter sweep. (39:15) During this sweep he was required to cross a clearing. While in the middle of this clearing a machine gun began firing. This however was another group of G.I.s firing upon VC. (39:50) Service in the 2nd of the 2nd (41:05)       There was poor communication when assigning the men to other units. (41:04) He was sent to the 2nd of the 2nd which was a mechanized infantry battalion. (41:11) The foliage on the river banks [this relates to part of his service with 2/28] was very think right at the edge of the river and beyond that the terrain was composed of rice paddies. (42:16) When stopped at night half the men would be on the boat and half would be placed on land. (42:49) His assignment on the boat only lasted a couple weeks until a new unit rotated onto the duty. (43:15) He was treated as a new guy even though he was not when he was in the 2nd of the 2nd (43:50) �         He knew approx 3-4 men as who came with him from his former unit. (44:33) At night, a mechanized unit would send a man with a radio out 100 meters away from the unit and he and the new men from his former unit were often selected for this job. (44:55) In one occasion a personnel transport unit exploded and several men were injured. (45:40) A .50 Cal. Machine gun was placed on top of the armored personal carriers; the user of these always had to wear a flak jacket. (47:35) He stayed with the 2nd of the 2nd for about a month (48:08) While traveling to Di An and planning to turn in their equipment for use by the ARVN [South Viethamese Army], the company was pulled into a large field and unloaded all ammunition and supplies and placed it in a pile to later be collected. 2 men deployed a smoke grenade that caught the tall grass on fire and then caught all the ammunition on fire. This action resulted in his sergeant being struck by a stay round and dying. (48:20) The fire took a few hours to die down. (51:32) The armored personnel carriers were to be turned in at Di An. (52:11) There was a small award ceremony for the 2nd of the 2nd but he was not awarded anything. (53:00) Service in the 101st, Delta Company, 1/506 (54:00)                When he was sent to the 101st Airborne Division in late February of 1970. He had heard bad things about theunit and was nervous. (55:00) The men of the 101st were very pleased to see new men. (55:55) He was then sent to Camp Evans where he underwent a 1 week long training. Here they discussed booby traps, NVAs [North Vietnamese Army], and larger scale tactics. (56:30) He underwent this training after having 6 months in the field. This drastically changed his perception of the training. (57:33) He was then sent to Delta Company in March of 1970, who were in the field on a mountain. (58:33) They were very glad to have seasoned men joining their company. (59:50) In this company he made many air assaults from helicopters. (1:00:04) In the 101st he was assigned to Delta Company, 1st of the 506 Infantry, second platoon. (1:01:32) He was much more welcome in Delta Company than when he was in the 2nd of the 2nd. (1:01:51) After going Delta Company he was immediately flown out to the company’s position. (1:03:01) The Company did a lot of work in mountainous terrain. (1:04:16) In April of 1970 at 1:00 AM another platoon had satchel charges thrown into their perimeter. He and his platoon were called upon to aid the soldiers under attack. However when they arrived the satchel charges had stopped. (1:04:40) One of the soldiers in the platoon under attack had taken a hit in his buttocks. He believed that such wounds had been fatal. (1:07:05) A medevac was called in to take out the wounded man that night. However due to the weather conditions, it was very difficult for the men to be spotted. (1:09:20) Doyle and another soldier escorted two men carrying the stretcher with the wounded soldier outside the perimeter to a small hilltop above some of the fog so that they could signal the medevac. (1:10:40) �             When serving in the 2nd and the 28th he would often be set up in “ambush mode” set up on a line with some security going the other way. Claymores were often used as booby traps to warn of oncoming troops. (1:11:30) While in the First Infantry Division he was not allowed to have ponchos only poncho liners. However in the 101st he was allowed to have both. (1:13:26) Ponchos were believed to be very noisy and when wet would reflect light which could lead to giving away positions. (1:14:00) On his first night in the field with his squad in the 101st, the squad leader put a man on first watch whom he knew would fall asleep. This way, he would not wake up the next man, and they could all sleep all night. Doyle knew that this exposed the unit to attack, and complained to the platoon sergeant. (1:14:57) After bringing up the issue of men sleeping on watch it did not happen again. (1:17:35) The different terrain each assignment was stationed in also meant different missions. (1:18:00) The day after the satchel attack the 2nd and 3rd platoons had been hit by mortars. (1:18:54) The following day the platoon moved position. However they were once again attacked by sappers with satchel charges. (1:20:00) During this encounter he took some light shrapnel and his ears began bleeding. (1:21:40) Air support was called in; however, they were unable to spot their position so a flare had to be popped in order to signal their position. (1:21:59) The following day (April 10th 1970) so many men had been wounded that the company was extracted from the field and placed at Camp Evans. (1:22:42) After being regrouped, the company was sent to a Firebase Rakkasan. (1:23:40) Though his wounds were not very serious he was awarded a Purple Heart after this encounter. (1:24:02) Action at Firebase Ripcord (April 1970) (1:24:30)           He had been operated on twice already since being in Vietnam. (1:24:44) Both encounters had been for wounds that became infected and a separate infection of his underarm. (1:25:22) While at the Rakkasan, he suffered from an infection of his hand from cellulitis. (1:26:06) He was given penicillin pills which he knew were not strong enough to solve the problem but the doctor would not listen. When the condition got worse, he was sent back to Camp Evans. (1:26:20) While at Camp Evans he was put on bunker guard. He was given this duty in spite being so injured from his infection that he was unable to pick up a weapon. (1:27:00) The doctor again insisted on giving him penicillin pills instead of shots, so he decided to take pain pills instead of the penicillin. As a result, his hand became so swollen that he had to be medevaced to Phu Bai. (1:27:27) From here he was sent to several hospitals ultimately resulting in him missing 27 days of service. (1:28:00) While in the hospital his platoon had been involved in a large firefight on May 7th where 7 died. (1:28:20) In the battle, a lot of the men he knew and trusted were killed. This furthered the belief in the idea that he was unable to trust the people around him. (1:29:58) He returned to his platoon in May and received R&R in Bangkok in June of 1970 (1:30:30) �      When returning to his platoon on Firebase Kathryn in late June of 1970 he was offered the position of the liaison between the supply sergeant and the platoon. (1:31:34) In spite only having been in Delta Company for 4 months, he was now one of the more experienced men due to the loss of soldiers. (1:33:20) On July 20th 1970 he was sitting on the tarmac with all the supplies for Delta Company when the transport meant for Ripcord was shot down. (1:33:30) He felt a lot of survivor’s guilt as a result of this occurrence and powerless. (1:34:33) He moved a lot, depending on where Delta Company was stationed. (1:35:16) One of the most valuable things to have was a cold soda. (1:35:40) Completion of Duty (1:36:50)      When being sent back to the states he shipped out of Cam Ranh Bay on October 1st of 1970 and arrived in Fort Lewis. (1:36:53) He was still required to be in the army till May 1971 (1:37:35) He was then placed in a mechanized infantry unit (4th infantry)(1:37:47) He was first in his board which is how he came to be a Sergeant. (1:48:05) He won very many awards and honors while here, leading him to be sent to the promotion board. (1:39:36) Culture of Units (1:40:00)    Drug use was a big use as well as race. But drugs were less common on the field than in the rear. (1:40:25) There was a lot of self segregation (1:41:05) In the 101st race and drug use had been the least of all other positions he had. (1:42:38 Later service (1:42:58)        He wore his class A uniform to get a cheap flight, but after the plane took off he when into the men’s room and removed it. (1:43:05) 2 years and 2 months later (approx. 1972) he was offered a position with the M.P. which he agreed to if he was made a staff sergeant. (1:43:24) He was made a correctional counselor but after his unit was disbanded he was made a Platoon leader. (1:44:26) In June of 1993 he made Sergeant Major. (1:45:30) On September 11th 2001, he was scheduled to go to ground zero for 2 weeks. (1:46:05) He served on the planning of the invasion of Afghanistan. (1:47:00) He was involved in the setup of Guantanamo Prison. (1:47:10) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Doyle, Richard (Interview outline and video), 2011 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Doyle, Richard Description An account of the resource Richard Doyle was born in Vermont and drafted into the US Army as he finished college in 1969. He trained as an infantryman and served in two different battalions in the 1st Infantry Division before being reassigned to the 101st. He served with D Company, 1/506 Infantry, from March until October, 1970 and participated in the Ripcord campaign. After returning from Vietnam, he stayed in the Army and eventually became an MP. He participated in the planning of the invasion of Afghanistan in 2001 and the establishment of the facility for Al Qaida prisoners at Guantanamo. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource McGregor, Michael (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings United States. Army Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-10-06 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DoyleR1277V Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/933f8dc11f2bf534d4c2787a341804b4.pdf 9be1b5b837a0b267cc18907957961d5f PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Korean War Era Robert Drew Introduction (00:00:02) • Born March 16th, 1930 in Decatur, Indiana (00:00:42) ◦ Robert Drew lived in a farm community for his whole life til age 19 with his family of eight; six from the Drew family along with his grandfather and grandmother (00:01:14) ◦ The farm era of Drew's life revolved around the time period of the Great Depression which made things difficult because there wasn't much employment due to the depression time in his early years (00:02:37) ◦ His family had farm produce to keep them afloat so it wasn't too bad, although there was a lack of money (00:03:06) ▪ Robert was the first and only in his family to enter the military (00:03:32) • Robert was motivated to go into the military by being able to choose his own branch rather than to be drafted somewhere he did not want to go; he enlisted in the Air Force (00:04:03) • Robert joined the National Guard first while still going to school; he was able to choose his branch of service and at that time was unaware of any other branch of service which he could of joined; this took place in Ft. Wayne, Indiana (00:04:29) Air Force (00:04:43) • Robert's job was with the Tactical Air Force and was attached to a radar unit; the radar unit was on the front lines; they didn't have any equipment at the airfield he was at the time, and Robert did not take any basic training (00:05:21) • Robert did air traffic control and listened to planes and saw how they were lined up in order in landing procedure so there wasn't two landing at the same time; in this time period the planes changed from propellor to jet engine (00:06:33) ◦ Robert enlisted for three years and then got his discharge and enlisted for another year (00:07:44) ▪ Robert got his discharge after three years because the Korean War had ended in 1953; Robert started school in September of 1953 (00:08:15) • He went to school on a suggestion from a high school teacher; he went to Ball State Teachers College in Muncie, Indiana (00:08:40) • With the Government Issue (GI) Bill, the government paid Robert $110 per month to go to college (00:09:43) ◦ After Robert graduated college in 1957, he went right into teaching; Robert took a job in Zeeland, Michigan in the fall of 1957 and is still there today (00:10:19) Life in the Barracks (00:13:47) • Because the Korean War was winding down when Robert arrived, as a radar operator, Robert remembers his equipment not being up to date (00:14:15) • Robert remembers doing very little radar operating work due to the lack of equipment (00:15:01) • Robert did a lot of volunteer duty, one such as main gate duty; he had a .45 but never shot nor knew how to use it (00:17:16) • From around (00:17:20) til (00:22:01) Robert explains the different rankings of the Air Force at �• • the time and how each one could be achieved Robert was stationed at Shaw Air Force Base in South Carolina when his time came up for a Staff Sergeant promotion by the review board where they held an hour interrogation by the officers; Robert passed but was only under National Guard jurisdiction and told him he was going to be discharged (00:24:07) ◦ Robert traveled around quite a bit but was never issued a National Guard vehicle so they had to use their own cars (00:26:21) ▪ Unless the men had guard duty, they had weekends off; Robert went to church often and traveled as much as he could (00:28:00) ▪ Robert had a 1948 Plymouth Club Coupe to drive around in; it was his favorite vehicle and he still wishes he had it today (00:28:29) It was easy for Robert and his family to keep in touch as he had mail call every day even though they did not have a telephone; letter writing was the primary way too keep in touch (00:29:07) Post Military Life (00:30:31) • Robert taught in 29 years in Zeeland, for his whole career; he was offered early retirement which he took, Robert and his wife traveled quite a bit and did basic volunteer work (00:31:03) • Robert viewed the military as good experience although he mentions he didn't accomplish anything there because of the time period and the end of the war; he was on 24 hour notice to Korea and had his stuff packed (00:31:42) • The overall discipline and having a crew of men where Robert made the decisions carried over to his school career (00:33:00) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Drew, Robert (Interview outline), 2013 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Drew, Robert Description An account of the resource Robert Drew was born on March 16th, 1930 in Decatur, Indiana. Robert was the first and only member of his family to enter the military. He joined the National Guard while going to school and then chose to join the Air Force before the United States had a chance to draft him to a branch of service he would have not preferred. Robert was part of the Tactical Air Force unit and did air traffic control. He never left the United States due to the timing of the war. Robert was discharged after three years because the Korean War came to an end. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Drew, Marissa (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American United States. National Guard United States. Air Force Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2013-04-06 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DrewR1502V Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d1f416daac746c179b1702f3585c8d5a.mp4 17ac933f1f79a3cf3bc0e550132208c5 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/700bc46d2af5516d7a8c1a2bc900f296.pdf ed209d6f13f716f7f467ec5ec62a06e8 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Richard Drury Vietnam War Interview Length: (01:25:22:00) Pre-enlistment / Training (00:00:13:00)  Drury was born on Sept. 13, 1950 in Kalamazoo, Michigan, although he grew up and went to school in nearby Portage, Michigan (00:00:13:00) o While Drury was growing up, his father worked at two jobs, as a carpenter and then as a bar owner in Portage (00:00:36:00) o While he was in high school, Drury did have some thoughts about going to college but once he was out of high school, Drury had not applied to any colleges, so he was unable to get a deferment on his draft notice (00:00:50:00)  Drury was eighteen years old when he received his draft notice and because he had been figuring he would eventually receive a draft notice, the notice did not surprise him once if finally did come (00:01:12:00) o Drury family had a military background, with his father and uncles having served in World War II, so Drury felt it was his obligation to serve (00:01:25:00) o As well, Drury had two younger brothers and he figured, being the oldest, if he served, then his brothers would not have to (00:01:36:00)  Drury knew a little bit about the war before he enlisted because his best friend’s brother had been killed in Vietnam; after his brother’s death, the friend became extremely interested in learning about the war and just by being around the friend, Drury picked up different pieces of information (00:02:01:00) o As well, Drury also picked up information just by watching the news on the television (00:02:18:00)  Drury went through his draft physical once he went to the draft board in Detroit and officially enlisted in the military (00:02:37:00) o During the physical, Drury remembers standing in a room with a group of recruits when the Marine Corps recruiters came in and said they needed six recruits; the recruiters then went through the group and picked out six men (00:02:49:00) o None of the men knew that the Marine Corps drafted men, so the six who were chosen left the room wide-eyed (00:03:11:00)  For Drury, it never came into his mind to try and enlist in the Marine Corps; had he been one of the six who were chosen, he would not have had a problem with it (00:03:36:00) o During the physical, Drury saw other recruits try various things to get out of serving, such as faking a limp or coming up with their eyes crossed; for some of the men, their tricks actually worked (00:04:01:00)  After the physicals were over, Drury and the other men went home, where the military sent them a letter telling the men the date they had to report back (00:04:26:00)  Once his time was up, Drury received orders sending him to Fort Knox, Kentucky for his basic training (00:04:35:00) � o When they first arrived, Drury and the other recruits were scared to death by the drill sergeants; the recruits learned very quickly to keep their mouths shut and do what they were told because if they did not, others would be punished for their mistakes, which none of them wanted (00:04:57:00) o When they arrived, the recruits did a series of tests to determine their individual IQ as well as their marksmanship and endurance (00:05:29:00) o A lot of the recruits Drury was training with were from the Southern and Appalachian states and those men were often the hardest to keep on the base; a lot of those men went AWOL and went home, with the Army having to go out and pick them up (00:05:48:00)  For the most part, those recruits had a tougher time adjusting to life in the military; when they said they wanted to go home, they meant that the wanted to go home (00:06:11:00)  A lot of the recruits were used to doing things on their own time, when they wanted to do them and it took a long time to get used to living in the regimented lifestyle of the Army (00:06:32:00) o Drury was skinny when he first enlisted, weighing maybe 155lbs (00:06:49:00)  Once he enlisted, Drury rapidly adapted to life in the military and almost embraced it; being in a regimented lifestyle fit nicely into the type of person that Drury was as a civilian (00:07:01:00) o At the beginning of basic training, the drill sergeants were tough on the recruits; however, once it was more towards the end of the training, the drill sergeants engaged the recruits more in conversation (00:07:23:00)  There was one drill sergeant who was extremely tough on the recruits but at the end of the basic training, he said that he would now show the recruits why he was so tough (00:07:36:00)  The drill sergeant then took his shirt off and on his chest was a bullet scar; the drill sergeant said that was what reality was going to be like for the majority of the recruits and he wanted them to understand why he had been so tough on them (00:07:46:00)  The drill sergeant’s speech opened Drury’s eyes and it was his first gut check about what was going to come (00:08:02:00) After basic training, Drury signed up for the Airborne and was sent to Airborne Infantry Training at Fort Gordon, Georgia (00:08:20:00) o While at Fort Gordon, Drury and the other Airborne volunteers ran and ran and ran, until they were in good enough physical shape (00:08:31:00) o Although Drury and the other men did not actually jump out of airplanes at Fort Gordon, they still went through the entire rigging process and also learned how to rappel using rappelling towers (00:08:41:00) o Drury believes that basic training and AIT (Advanced Individual Training) both lasted for eight weeks (00:09:02:00) o During the AIT at Fort Gordon, Drury and the other men also trained using helicopters (00:09:07:00)  For the most part, the men would hop onto the helicopter, which would then fly them around; although the training was not exactly like what they �   would experience in Vietnam, it still gave the men a taste of working with helicopters (00:09:12:00)  The men also trained in how to properly exit from the helicopter but again, the training was not intense (00:09:40:00) o The instructors at Fort Gordon did not make much of an effort to prepare the men for Vietnam (00:09:54:00)  The men did not have to go through jungle school or survival training (00:09:57:00)  Instead, in what training the men did receive, they learned how to pick specific objects out of the brush, how to properly march in the field, etc.; for the most part, the training was not individually geared with an emphasis placed on working in the jungle (00:10:04:00)  The men did receive training about the enemy booby-traps; they learned how to avoid the punji sticks and to not pick up anything that looked out of place in the environment (00:10:30:00) o Drury believes most of the instructors who trained the men had already served time in Vietnam (00:10:44:00) o While at Fort Gordon, Drury was able to go off base but he did not go off too often (00:10:52:00) After he finished the eight weeks of AIT at Fort Gordon, Drury’s next stop would be in Vietnam; he was originally planning to go through traditional airborne training but he did not think it would be beneficial, given that Airborne Forces already in Vietnam were not jumping out of airplanes (00:11:13:00) o There was no sense in going through jump school at that point; Drury knew that if he stayed in the Army, there would be plenty of time for him to do jump school once his tour in Vietnam was over (00:11:35:00) o When he finished AIT, Drury had a strong suspicion about where he would be going, Vietnam, and he decided not to waste any time going over (00:11:42:00) o At AIT was over, the Army allowed Drury and the other men to go home on a thirty-day leave (00:11:50:00) When the thirty-day leave was over, Drury had to report to a base in California to deploy over to Vietnam (00:12:03:00) o Once Drury was in California, he went through the process of getting set up to be put on a plane and flown to Vietnam (00:12:30:00) o From California, Drury’s flight first went to Hawaii, although the men aboard the airplane were not allowed to get off; from Hawaii, the airplane stopped on Wake Island before arriving in Vietnam (00:12:41:00) Drury arrived in Vietnam at the Bien Hoa Air Force Base (00:13:35:00) Vietnam Deployment(00:13:44:00)  Even before he took his first step off the plane, the heat and humidity, as well as the smell, hit Drury in the face like a ton of bricks (00:13:44:00) o Coming from Michigan, that type of heat and humidity was something totally foreign to Drury (00:13:56:00) o Drury was sweating before he even took his first step onto the ladder leading off the airplane (00:14:03:00) �     Once they were off the airplane, Drury and the other soldiers went to a center where they went through courses educating them about certain things as well as received their new unit assignments (00:14:13:00) o From what Drury can remember, the orientation courses were roughly a week to two weeks in length (00:14:29:00) o Before Drury left the base for his new unit, he does not recall the base every coming under enemy mortar or rocket fire (00:15:03:00) o Some of the soldiers on the base were going home soon and Drury could see the difference in the faces from those soldiers who had just arrived, such as himself, and those soldiers who had been in country for awhile (00:15:10:00) Because he had volunteered for airborne training, Drury figured he would end up with an airborne unit somewhere in the country (00:15:27:00) From Bien Hoa, Drury and some other soldiers flew aboard a C-130 cargo transport to the airport at Phu Bai; from Phu Bai, Drury hopped aboard a truck that took him out to Camp Evans (00:15:51:00) o Drury did not receive any sort of reception at Camp Evans; nobody said “hi” or anything (00:16:13:00) o Once at Camp Evans, Drury was assigned to Delta Company, 1st (Battalion) of the 506th (Infantry Regiment), 101st Airborne Division (00:16:17:00)  After asking enough people around the camp, Drury finally found where the company’s headquarters was located, so he walked into the headquarters and reported (00:16:23:00)  After he reported in, Drury received a bunk assignment, as well as all his equipment; once Drury had his equipment, he began packing his rucksack with food, water, and everything he needed to take out (00:16:44:00) o Delta Company was in the field when Drury arrived at Camp Evans (00:17:23:00) When the day came for Drury to fly out to the company, someone told him they had ice cream he was to take to the company (00:17:26:00) o Drury hopped on a helicopter with a couple of other newly-arrived soldiers and sitting in his lap was the ice cream (00:17:37:00) o It did not take too long to reach the company by helicopter and when the helicopter landed, Drury got off, slung his rifle on his shoulder, hefted the ice cream and started running to where some soldiers were standing (00:17:44:00)  As he ran over to the soldiers, Drury noticed that some wounded soldiers were being loaded onto the helicopter, which was his first wake-up call about being in Vietnam (00:18:01:00) o Drury walked up to the soldiers and was in the process of introducing himself when one of the soldiers jumped up and told Drury to shut his mouth and to whisper in the field (00:18:15:00)  Drury had only been in the field for two minutes but had already been chewed out and to boot, the ice cream was melting all over him; however, the soldiers were still thankful he brought the ice cream (00:18:31:00) o Drury arrived at the company around the end of March 1970 (00:18:44:00) Once Drury was with the company, a older soldier was assigned to work with him; the older soldier was armed with the M-79 grenade launcher, a thumper (00:19:02:00) �o Being a new guy, Drury received every rotten job there was, such as manning a listening post or walking point (00:19:20:00)  Drury walked point about two or three weeks after he joined the company because to walk point, it took some knowledge (00:19:37:00) o At the time Drury joined, the company was on an extended patrol, which meant during the night, the soldiers would sleep in the field (00:19:52:00) o One of the lasting impressions Drury has of when he first joined the company was the heat and how difficult it was to carry around 100lbs rucksacks; regardless of how much training a soldier had, it took time to get used to humping their way through a patrol (00:20:01:00)  It took Drury a couple of weeks just to learn how to hump during a patrol properly (00:20:17:00)  Over time, Drury learned what he needed to pack and what he did not need to pack for a patrol (00:20:31:00)  For the most part, although Drury wanted to bring as much fruit cocktail as possible because it was nutritious but also had liquid, it was heavy and he did not want to carry a lot of it (00:20:37:00)  The soldiers tried to pack as lightly as possible but still have enough supplies to last for a seven-day period, including seven days worth of water (00:21:05:00) o For the vast majority of the time, the company was operating jungle-covered mountains (00:21:23:00)  Although the soldiers worked at a company size within a given area, for the most part, the soldiers worked at the platoon size; very seldom did individual squads go out for an assignment, except to occasionally do ambushes (00:21:36:00)  While moving through the jungle, the soldiers tried to stay off trails as much as possible because they knew the enemy had often placed boobytraps on the trails (00:22:10:00)  However, in some areas, there was no other way to get by than by going on a trail (00:22:18:00)  At the times they would not use an existing trail, the soldiers had to make their own trail through the jungle; the lead men in the column would break through the brush and look for the easiest way possible (00:22:35:00)  Breaking a trail uphill was the worst; trying to cut through the jungle in 100 heat going uphill was tiring (00:22:57:00) o At night, the soldiers would dig foxholes and then alternate between sleeping and guard duty (00:23:10:00)  For example, if there were three soldiers to a foxhole, two would be sleeping and one would be on guard duty (00:23:19:00) o When Drury joined the company, the company’s contacts with the enemy were minor incidents; for Drury personally, it was quite awhile until he legitimately shot at an enemy soldiers (00:23:36:00)  Although the company did have contact with the enemy, most of those times, Drury was not physically involved in the fighting (00:23:46:00) �  o As the soldiers moved through the jungle, it was normally as a long, staggered out line; they tried to avoid grouping up but also tried to avoid making several redundant trails (00:23:55:00)  When moving, the soldiers normally tried to keep about 10’ of separation; any further and the soldiers risked losing contact (00:24:15:00) o Contact with the enemy might range from a single sniper attack or a booby-trap going off to finding an enemy base camp (00:24:27:00)  At night, the enemy might probe the company’s position, launching RPGs to see if the Americans would shoot back (00:24:38:00) o The situation of different parts of the company being engaged with the enemy continued until the company returned to Camp Evans (00:25:03:00) When Drury first joined Delta company, the company stayed in the field for about a month, from the end of March until the end of April, at which point the company returned to Camp Evans for a stand-down (00:25:22:00) o By the time the company returned to Camp Evans, Drury felt he had learned but still had a lot to learn; he felt he was starting to fit in with the rest of the soldiers, who were beginning to trust him (00:25:39:00) o Once back at Camp Evans, the soldiers were able to get clean clothes, take showers, and go grab a couple of beers; there was a small movie theater on the camp and the soldiers were able to go watch movies there (00:26:11:00)  At certain times, the soldiers were able to call home if they managed to get the right things in place (00:26:23:00)  If a soldier was religious, there were places where they could go speak with a chaplain (00:26:27:00)  Having hot food and not having the march through the jungle were the two biggest things for the soldiers once they were in the camp (00:26:34:00)  While back on the base, Drury did not personally see any of the other soldiers using drugs; however, he knew the drug use was happening because at different times, he could smell the drugs (00:26:49:00) o At most, a stand-down would last for a week, during which time the men resupplied, checked their ammunition, received new uniforms, etc. (00:27:05:00) Once the stand-down was over, the company began moving around to several different firebases in preparation for their next big operation, which was in May and involved a combat assault onto Firebase Maureen (00:28:10:00) o The assault on Maureen represented Drury’s hot LZ (landing zone) baptism because the company did a combat assault against the firebase (00:28:30:00)  Everything was different for the soldiers when going into a hot LZ; they needed to move quickly and Drury moved as fast as he possible could (00:28:44:00)  During the assault, the soldiers were being mortared, shot at by .51-caliber machine guns and tear-gassed (00:28:55:00) o Once Drury was off his helicopter, he made his way to a bunker, where someone told him to shoot; however, Drury could not see anything, so when he asked where, the soldier told him he did not care and just to shoot (00:29:04:00)  After awhile, the firebase did calm down (00:29:14:00) � o After the assault was over was the first time that Drury ever saw a dead enemy soldier; it was a pair of Chinese soldiers and a couple of the Airborne soldiers stuck a patch on the bodies and threw them off the side of the hill (00:29:19:00) o The whole company ended up spending the night on Maureen (00:29:55:00) o The American had already previously used Maureen as a firebase before but had abandoned it; the bunker Drury got into when he got of his helicopters was really the remains of a bunker from that first period (00:30:02:00) o During the first night, Drury was positioned on a listening post, which was pretty eerie (00:30:24:00)  During that night, Drury and the other soldiers who were in the listening post almost all agree that they heard some sort of enemy probing, although they did not see any enemy (00:30:35:00) o The following day, all the platoons went off Maureen in separate directions, which was when 2nd platoon ended up getting attacked pretty bad by the enemy; during the fighting, a soldier who had been with the platoon for only a couple of days ended up winning the Medal of Honor (00:30:59:00)  Drury’s platoon came back the next morning as fast as they could to try and reach 2nd platoon (00:31:49:00)  During the platoon’s movement around the firebase to reach 2nd platoon, the soldiers found a dead Chinese soldier; again, it was another wake up call for Drury as to what he was really facing in the field (00:31:56:00)  When the firefight with 2nd platoon started, Drury’s platoon was less the a klick away (00:32:57:00)  One of the other platoons in the company initially tried to work its way over to 2nd platoon but ended up being ambushed by the enemy themselves (00:33:13:00)  After the other platoon was ambushed, Drury’s platoon was ordered to halt, out of suspicion that they were being set up for an ambush as well (00:33:19:00)  Although his platoon was some distance away from the fight, Drury remembers being able to watch it and it broke his heart that he was not able to help the other soldiers (00:33:27:00)  Eventually, air and artillery strikes were called in, almost on top of 2nd platoon; however, the pilots and artillerymen had to be careful because 1st and 3rd platoons were also in the area and they did not want to be hit by an air or artillery strike (00:33:44:00) After the fighting at Maureen, Drury’s company briefly returned to Camp Evans for a stand-down before being sent to Firebase Kathryn for a month (00:34:27:00) o The company returned to Camp Evans to try to get back up to full company strength, something which never actually happened (00:34:51:00)  As well, because the company was always bringing in replacements, it was always heavy with new soldiers, which was not a good situation while working in the A Shau Valley (00:34:58:00) o Firebase Kathryn had artillery guns positioned on it to support soldiers in the field or other firebases (00:35:18:00) �   Although it was a nice firebase, it was close enough to the A Shau valley that it took its fair share of incoming enemy fire; mostly in the shape of mortars, although on occasion, an enemy soldier would sneak in close with an RPG, just to see what the soldiers would do (00:35:26:00)  At one point, Drury moved from one foxhole to another and during the night, there was a huge explosion; the soldiers thought the firebase was under attack but none came and the next morning, they found the bodies of the two soldiers from the foxhole in the concertina wire, with a wire leading back to the company’s Kit Carson scout (00:35:51:00)  Although the other soldiers wanted to kill the scout, the company commander would not let them (00:36:23:00)  The scout had been in a bunker behind the soldier’s position and there was a wire leading from the bunker to the foxhole, which indicated an explosive weapon (00:36:31:00)  After the incident, the scout was taken away because Drury believes had the scout stayed with the company, he and the other soldiers would have killed him (00:36:44:00) o For the month they were positioned on Kathryn, the soldiers worked to beef up the defenses of the firebase, such as digging new foxholes and checking the concertina wire, as well as going on patrols around the firebase (00:37:12:00)  As well, the soldiers practiced doing whatever practical things they could, such as cleaning their weapons (00:37:26:00)  Apart from Drury’s company, there were also artillerymen, mortarmen, and headquarters personnel also stationed on the firebase (00:37:40:00)  None of the platoons ever went on extended patrols away from Kathryn; all the patrols were close to the firebase and the soldiers were able to return to the firebase when the patrol ended instead of spending the night in the filed (00:38:07:00)  Operating off a firebase was nice because it meant the soldiers were able to eat hot meals and take showers (00:38:26:00) The company ended up finally leaving Catherine in the early part of June and proceeded to go on an extended patrol (00:38:49:00) o During the patrol, although the company did make contact with the enemy, Drury remembers it was never major contact; for the most part, the enemy contact was either harassment or the company finding and destroying a bunker (00:38:56:00) o At one point, the soldiers had to call in artillery and one of the rounds, 155mm, ended up being a short round, landed amongst the soldiers, and killed a couple of them, which was demoralize to the rest of the soldiers (00:39:14:00) After the company had left Catherine, an RTO in the platoon had left for whatever reason and Drury was given the assignment (00:39:44:00) o During basic training and AIT, Drury had some training with using a radio but once he was given the position in the field, the other RTOs in the platoon helped him understand what he needed to saw and how to properly say it (00:40:06:00) o As a squad RTO, Drury was able to communicate on the platoon- and companylevel radio nets (00:40:30:00) �  When he first became an RTO, Drury mostly talked on the platoon-level radio net and the platoon leader would relay the message to the company level (00:41:10:00)  The only times Drury talked on the company-level net was if he made a mistake; the company RTO was always listening to the platoon-level nets and if Drury made a mistake, the company RTO would call in and tell him (00:41:22:00) o Whenever his platoon went on a short patrol around a firebase, part of Drury’s job was to check-in at night with a sit-rep; during the sit-reps, instead of talking, Drury would just click the microphone to make a noise (00:41:37:00)  Two clicks meant the platoon was okay while one click meant something was amiss; if one click happened, the RTO would ask and if there was another single click, then the company knew something was going on and the platoon could not talk (00:41:52:00) o When the platoon or company would go out on a patrol, the soldiers were pretty good about noise and light discipline; however, it was difficult to make sure that one hundred men were quiet all of the time (00:42:15:00) o Once the company had left Catherine and gone out on the extended patrol, most of the time, the soldiers were humping their way through the jungle (00:43:27:00)  However, on some occasions when higher-ups wanted the company to check out a specific location, the company would fly in via helicopter and use an already existing LZ (00:43:31:00) o After the company had left Kathryn, Drury’s platoon ended up receiving a new platoon leader, a Lieutenant Thompson (00:43:51:00)  The lieutenant was a little bit of an oddball; for example, while working as lieutenant’s RTO, Drury noticed the lieutenant loved eating exotic seafood because all of the lieutenant’s care packages had some type of squid or sardine (00:43:55:00)  Nevertheless, the lieutenant was a great officer and he deeply cared for the well-being of his soldiers, almost to the point that the company commander thought the lieutenant was too close to the troops (00:44:16:00) o During that time period, Drury himself did not know what was happening regarding the fighting on nearby Firebase Ripcord (00:45:15:00)  At the time, Drury’s company was fighting on and around Hill 1000, which was a hill near Ripcord and the area around Hill 1000 was pretty active itself (00:45:23:00) Just before the company went onto Ripcord itself, Drury remembers one particular patrol where either the company or the platoon was giving orders to another unit (00:45:42:00) o On nearby hill was a firebase, Drury does not remember the name, and at the bottom of the hill was the largest concentration of enemy bunkers that Drury had ever seen (00:46:05:00)  Inside the bunker complex was the remains of a downed helicopter and all around, the soldiers could see the enemy's shoes and their personal belongings (00:46:24:00) �   The trails in the complex were so worn-down by the enemy that the soldiers could have driven cars up and down them (00:46:51:00) At a certain point, Drury’s company managed to make it all the way to the top of Hill 1000 (00:45:15:00) o Although Drury does not remember too much fighting as the company moved up the hill, there were still a lot bunkers and other positions that reminded the soldiers they were still in enemy territory (00:47:26:00) Eventually, the company was taken back to Camp Evans to prepare for their insertion around Ripcord itself (00:47:57:00) o Drury remembers the company commander, Captain Workman, going around and talking with the soldiers; although he never saw a lot of the captain, Drury still liked him (00:48:20:00) o For Drury personally, prior to going to Ripcord, he had only heard a little bit about what was happening at the firebase (00:48:51:00)  He does remembers the soldiers being told to take extra ammunition and being told to be ready for a big fight (00:49:08:00) Firebase Ripcord / End of Tour / Post-Military Life / Reflections (00:49:30:00)  The company finally inserted to the area around Ripcord on July 20th and Drury himself was aboard the very first helicopter going in (00:49:30:00) o Being the RTO, Drury had to call back to a major to report the situation and once the helicopter had landed and he had disembarked, Drury did call back and reported a cold LZ (00:49:39:00)  However, as Drury and Lieutenant Thompson looked around, they noticed wires running across the LZ and the remnants of bunkers, which did not feel right to them (00:49:52:00)  By about the third helicopter, the LZ was starting to come under .51caliber enemy machine gun fire from an adjacent hill (00:50:11:00) o Once the enemy .51 fire started, Drury called in a hot LZ and the entire process sped up; once so many soldiers had landed on the hill, the entire unit needed to deploy (00:50:15:00) o As the company deployed, Drury’s platoon went to the left while the 2nd and 3rd platoons went to the right and took out the enemy .51 (00:50:24:00)  Drury’s platoon headed towards a small knoll and as the platoon advanced, the soldiers took some fire but eventually made it to the top of the knoll (00:50:40:00)  At the top of the knoll, the soldiers saw that the enemy had been digging a large bunker complex (00:50:57:00) o After the platoon had settled in, a patrol was sent out but was subsequently hit by enemy forces and the soldiers were killed (00:51:06:00)  Another group went down, including several sergeants and Lieutenant Thompson, and that group was attacked as well; some of the sergeants and Lieutenant Thompson were wounded (00:51:21:00)  By the time the casualties from the two groups were accounted for, there were very few soldiers remaining in the platoon (00:51:30:00) �o It was getting close to dark and what soldiers remained in the platoon would not be able to defend the position at night (00:51:34:00)  The 2nd platoon went back to the LZ and set up a strobe light to help guide Drury and the other remaining soldiers in the platoon (00:51:46:00) o When the second group, including Lieutenant Thompson, had gone down the hill to assist the first group, Thompson left Drury behind to help manage the soldiers who remained on the knoll (00:52:17:00) o Following the attack on Lieutenant Thompson’s group, the sequence of events becomes foggy for Drury, not because he cannot remember them but because he has ready other accounts of what happened; what Drury remembers witnessing sometimes contradicts those other accounts (00:52:55:00) o Once the night finally came up, Captain Workman called over and told Drury’s platoon that they needed to come back (00:53:34:00)  As the platoon readied to move back to the company, the soldiers could hear the enemy soldiers moving in the bushes (00:53:40:00)  Nevertheless, the platoon successfully makes it back to the rest of the company (00:53:51:00)  After the platoon had rejoined the company, Drury remembers walking up to the headquarters personnel to ask for some additional ammunition for the soldiers in the platoon (00:53:53:00)  Drury remembers talking with the company medic and the medic saying that the captain had had a nervous breakdown because one of the soldiers in Drury’s platoon who had been a favorite of the captain’s was killed (00:54:11:00)  Drury could not confirm if what the medic said was true because he never saw the captain (00:55:28:00)  The ground where the company was positioned was so rocky that the soldiers could not dig in, so they were told just to spread out (00:54:38:00) o Drury remembers waking up the next day and bending over to tie his boots when he heard the sound of four mortars being fired; it was then that he realized it was going to be a bad day (00:54:47:00)  Drury has read differing reports as to how many mortar rounds the company took that day; some of the reports even claim the enemy launched 120mm mortars at them (00:55:04:00)  Once the mortar attacks started, everything happened so fast that it was almost a free-for-all (00:55:31:00)  At one point, the soldiers were told to go back to the LZ to be extracted but when that did not work, they were told to go back up the hill (00:55:36:00)  Then, they were told to go back down to the LZ but they were then told to go back up the hill to get a machine gun that had been left behind (00:55:43:00) o Although the overall battle was chaotic, Drury experienced only a narrow part of it; because he could not be around the entire hill, he did not know what exactly was happening on the other parts of the hill (00:55:56:00) �  Twenty feet from him might be a completely different situation than the one he was facing (00:56:03:00)  Some of the accounts of fighting portray the men as falling apart and being less than soldiers (00:56:35:00)  Although Drury admits that they did fall apart, the men were still soldiers; the men were still doing what they needed to do but when situations looked dire, things did get crazy (00:56:48:00) o Drury was eventually wounded in the elbow and his hearing was gone as well; a mortar round had impacted near Drury, which took out his hearing, and the round kicked up stones, which went into his elbow (00:57:05:00)  After being wounded, Drury moved down to the LZ, which was when he saw a soldier fall out of one of the helicopters that had been flying into the LZ (00:57:24:00)  Helicopters continued coming in and out of the LZ, which made Drury assume the company would eventually going to be combat evacuated off the hill (00:57:41:00) o Drury was soon placed aboard a helicopter but as the helicopter lifted off from the LZ, it was struck in the tail by an RPG; luckily, the round did not explode and stayed in the tail all the way back to Camp Evans (00:57:57:00)  Drury has some guilt about leaving the hill; although he was not functioning at 100%, he could have stayed, especially if he knew what was going to happen to the company (00:58:17:00)  Drury just assumed the company was going to be evacuated out, just like every other time that happened (00:58:33:00) o At some point, a second helicopter was shot down over the LZ, which forced the commanders to close the LZ until the following day (00:58:44:00) o Those soldiers who had made it off the LZ before it was closed, including Drury, were waiting for the rest of the soldiers to come in but they did not (00:59:06:00)  Once the rest of the company did come back in, some of the soldiers were mad at Drury and the other soldiers who had gotten off (00:59:18:00)  Drury found out that Captain Workman and several other soldiers had been killed during the night and the information devastated him; he felt that he should have been on the hill as well (00:59:30:00)  By the time Drury left the hill, almost all the lieutenants and a good portion of the sergeants in the company had been wounded or killed and those soldiers who evacuated off with Drury were just reacting to the situation (00:59:51:00) o While on the hill, Drury saw the company medic further up the hill and eventually, the medic said he could not take it any more and stood up; the hill was under mortar fire and the next mortar round landed near the medic and killed him instantly (01:00:11:00) Once Drury’s company returned to Camp Evans, there was just not that many soldiers left in the company who were field ready; Drury would venture that the company was down to less than thirty soldiers (01:01:09:00) �    o However, General Berry, the (acting) commander of the 101st Airborne flew up to Camp Evans and said although it was a terrible thing, the company had to go back into the field (01:01:23:00) o Although he is not positive, Drury believes that the company was sent to a firebase (01:01:37:00)  However, once at its new position, the company had to go through a whole new round of replacements, including a new company commander, allnew lieutenants and all-new sergeants (01:01:44:00) o Although it took a long time to get the new soldiers to the point they were combat ready, after Ripcord, there was not too much going on; the enemy did not want to make any more contact with the soldiers (01:01:57:00)  There were some sporadic firefights between other units and the enemy but for Drury’s company, the big battles were over (01:02:11:00) o The 101st Airborne did not believe in having combat troops waiting in the rear area; if forces were needed someplace, then soldiers were sent there (01:02:34:00) o The deafness from the impacting mortar round was only temporary for Drury, although he needs hearing aids today (01:02:49:00)  His elbow swelled up from the stones that the mortar had thrown up and it took a couple of weeks for the swelling to go down to the point that Drury could use the elbow every day (01:02:56:00) In December, the end of Drury’s tour was close and he was working as the company commander’s RTO when the battalion RTO positioned opened up (01:03:16:00) o The company commander asked if Drury would like the battalion RTO position and Drury said “yes”; in January 1971, Drury transferred up to be the battalion RTO stationed on Camp Evans (01:03:29:00) While Drury was still in the field with his company, the company often came under enemy sapper attacks; however, for the most part, those attacks were probing the soldiers’ position (01:03:57:00) o However, when the company was stationed on Firebase Maureen, there was a full-scale enemy sapper attack (01:04:05:00) o Apart from the sapper attacks, the enemy sometimes lobbed mortar rounds into the soldiers’ position, just to gauge how the soldiers would react (01:04:19:00) When a soldier first arrived in Vietnam, he was scared but over time, he became calm and just did his job; he did what he needed to do in order to stay alive (01:04:47:00) o However, once a solider became a short-timer, he began thinking about actually being able to survive and make it home (01:05:05:00) During Drury’s finally two months in Vietnam, he served as the battalion RTO on Camp Evans, running and checking the radios, doing sit-reps at night, etc.; it was easy work compared to what he had been doing (01:05:34:00) o For the most part, Drury got along well with the personnel who he interacted with at the battalion headquarters; he did not so much like dealing with the lieutenant colonels and colonels (01:06:14:00) o The one regret Drury has about serving at the battalion level was that he was no longer with his friends from the company; it was really hard to see his friends get on a helicopter and not go out with them (01:06:29:00) �       However, Drury was smart enough to know that if he got a rear job, he needed to stay in the rear (01:06:29:00) o Apart from the infantry stationed on Camp Evans, there were also artillerymen, pilots, MPs, support personnel, etc. (01:07:07:00)  What was odd was that the personnel who stayed on the base always looked extremely clean compared to the infantry (01:07:21:00) o While at the camp, Drury saw black soldiers trying to entice other black soldiers to break regulations, such as having longer hair or not dressing properly, just to see what would happen (01:08:27:00) At one point while Drury was still in the field, his platoon went into a cave and found a stack of brochures that the NVA had printed that read “Black brothers, why are you fighting? This is a white man’s war” (01:09:03:00) o Most of the time, the caves and bunkers that the soldiers found were empty; if the soldiers found a cave or bunker with supplies inside, it usually meant they had just forced the enemy out or the enemy would be coming back (01:09:35:00)  For the most part, unless the soldiers caught the enemy off-guard, the enemy policed up their supplies caches pretty well (01:09:48:00) While at Camp Evans, Drury was able to overhear talk of what was happening in other areas of the country (01:10:04:00) o For himself, Drury did not really have an impression of how the war was going; being in I Corps, way in the northern part of South Vietnam, he had no way of knowing what was happening in the southern part (01:10:33:00)  During his time in Vietnam, Drury genuinely thought the United States was winning; in his mind, there was no way anyone could stand up to the punishment the American forces were giving (01:11:03:00) At Camp Evans, there were South Vietnamese civilians working on the base, doing the soldiers’ laundry, cleaning the soldiers’ barracks, etc. (01:11:28:00) o In Drury’s mind, there were too many South Vietnamese working on the base and on occasion, they would find one counting off paces in-between buildings and he would be gone (01:11:42:00) Although the camp did come under mortar and rocket attacks, the rocket attacks were just 120mm rockets; the enemy would light them but had no way of controlling where they would go (01:11:57:00) o Although there were also times when enemy soldiers were caught trying to sneak onto the base, all in all, the enemy tended to avoid attacking a base as large as Camp Evans was (01:12:07:00) Drury was stuck in the mountains during the monsoon season; it was amazing to him to see how much and how hard it could rain (01:12:27:00) Some of the worst things in Vietnam were the snakes and biting insects; every morning, all the soldiers had to take their clothes off because leeches would attach themselves to the soldiers (01:12:34:00) o Drury figures that if someone went through the records, the person would find that an equal number, if not more, were taken out of the field because of jungle rot or falling of cliffs and breaking ankles, etc.; Drury figures his company lost just as many soldiers to those as they did to actual combat (01:12:58:00) �       Drury himself had jungle rot and one morning, it was the size of a pea; the next morning, it was the size of a quarter (01:13:40:00) Although everybody always tends to look at the negative aspects, there were also some good things and some funny things too (01:14:20:00) o One time, the men were climbing up a hill in the rain and they accidentally slipped, which caused them to slid over 100yrds down the hill (01:14:24:00) o Another time, the soldiers were climbing up a mountain when they reached a plateau; once he was on the plateau, Drury looked over and running off the side of the mountain was a small waterfall (01:14:40:00)  The scene was beautiful and Drury kept thinking how horrible it was that there was a war going on because the land itself was absolutely beautiful country (01:14:50:00) One time, Drury and some of the other soldiers went into the nearby city of Hue; however, they were used to being in the field and see all the people around put them out of their element (01:15:03:00) o Another time, the company was operating in the lowlands and although the men thought they had set up a good perimeter, the next day, there were around twenty Vietnamese kids trying to sell them ice and Coca-Colas (01:15:18:00) Drury finally finished his tour at the end of February (01:16:13:00) o As Drury’s tour ended, the military had started shortening the tours of all the personnel in-country in an effort to facilitate the beginning of the Vietnaminization process (01:16:20:00) o Once the tour ended, Drury went down to the Air Force base at Cam Ranh Bay to catch a flight back to the United States (01:17:01:00)  In order to board the flight home, Drury could not be carrying any sharp objects; his father had sent him a knife that Drury had wanted to keep but the knife went into the bin with all the other objects (01:17:08:00)  Once the airplane was airborne, everyone aboard was happy; however, it was also a long flight and it gave them a chance to reflect and think about their friends still in Vietnam (01:17:24:00) During his tour, the only contact Drury had with home was through letters; he tried calling once from Vietnam but was unsuccessful but did manage to call when he was on an R&R and talked for about three minutes (01:18:02:00) During his tour, Drury was able to go on two separate R&Rs, once to Taiwan and once to Bangkok, Thailand (01:18:20:00) o Getting on the plane to go back to Vietnam at the end of each R&R was not too hard for Drury because he knew that was the way it had to be (01:18:35:00) Drury’s flight from Vietnam landed at Fort Lewis, Washington (01:18:51:00) o After he got off the plane at Fort Lewis, Drury went to the Seattle-Tacoma International Airport for a flight to Chicago; however, there was a long lay-over and Drury spent a long time waiting in the terminal (01:18:58:00)  While in the airport terminal, Drury did not see any anti-war protestors but at the same time, nobody walked up and said thank you (01:19:22:00) o When Drury arrived in Chicago, he ran into an ex-Marine who saw Drury was carrying a duffle bag and offered to carry the bag for Drury (01:19:41:00) �     Although he was back in the United States, Drury still had some time remaining on his enlistment, so he was only going home on leave (01:20:04:00) o Once his leave was over, he reported to Fort Bragg, North Carolina and was put into a weapons company, which was just someplace to put him until his enlistment finally ran out (01:20:08:00) In September 1971, Drury’s enlistment finally ended and he was able to get out of the military (01:20:19:00) o When his enlistment ended, the Army made some effort to convince Drury to reenlist (01:20:26:00) o Although he enjoyed the regimentation of life in the Army, Drury did not like all the rules and regulations that accompanied the life (01:20:33:00) Once he was finally out of the military, Drury returned home to Michigan and got a job working at a state mental health hospital in Kalamazoo (01:21:12:00) o He eventually met his future wife the following April and the couple married in October (01:21:28:00) o All Drury wanted to do once he was out of the military was be a family man, have some kids, and be a good dad (01:21:42:00) o Drury eventually left his job working at the mental health hospital and eventually found a job working as a local delivery driver (01:21:56:00) Drury did have some troubles re-adjusting to life as a civilian (01:22:11:00) o It too him a long time to get used to sleeping in a bed and to this day, he does not like loud noises or the sound of helicopters (01:22:16:00) o As well, Drury has been diagnosed with PTSD (Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder), although he is receiving treatment for the disorder (01:22:28:00) Drury and his family own a small store in Wayland, Michigan and all the money that they earn from the store goes to help veterans who are homeless or down-trodden find jobs, get new clothes, etc. (01:23:47:00) o Unfortunately, some of the veterans that the funds are helping are younger veterans who served in Iraq and Afghanistan (01:24:33:00) o Although Drury had hoped lessons would have been learned to help the younger veterans before they drifted too far, that is not what has happened (01:24:36:00) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Drury, Richard (Interview outline and video), 2012 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Drury, Richard Description An account of the resource Richard Drury was born in 1950 in Kalamazoo, Michigan. He received his draft notice shortly after finishing high school in 1969. He did his Army basic training at Fort Knox, Kentucky, and then advanced training for airborne at Fort Gordon, Georgia, and went to Vietnam early in 1970. He was assigned to Delta Company, 2nd of the 506th, 101st Airborne Division, which was based at Camp Evans in the far north of South Vietnam. His company conducted a series of combat patrols of varying lengths in the spring and summer of 1970, and was involved in heavy fighting near Firebase Maureen in May and Firebase Ripcord in July. After being wounded in the Ripcord fight, he returned to his unit, but the company did not see much further action. He spent much of his time in Vietnam as a radio operator, eventually becoming his company's RTO, and finally being assigned to the battalion headquarters at Camp Evans for the last part of his tour. He returned to the US early in 1971 and finished his enlistment at Fort Bragg, North Carolina. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings United States. Army Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-05-31 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DruryR1385V Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f7935da7c5606d1ca103588b44a0666e.m4v abd040056bcdb29957a7dd298c1647b9 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/df9975df33989472d7c5a9cf66457f00.pdf 99c80f2e87dc2d50d0af298253f60840 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans’ History Project Joseph Dubois World War II 14 minutes 32 seconds (00:00:11) Early Life -Grew up in Avery Island, Louisiana. -11 siblings. -One brother was in the military, the Navy. -Worked for Mc. Ilhenny Tabasco Sauce Company -Voluntarily enlisted to the Army Air Force. However the Air Force was full so he was placed in the infantry. -Not too difficult to get used to because of his physically active country lifestyle. -Basic training in Little Rock Arkansas. -Took 8 weeks. -Next, sent to Colorado Springs and placed in the 89th Infantry Division. -Stay in Colorado Springs lasted for ten months. -Continued with more training for about 8 months. -Took part in mock combat maneuvers for about 3 months. -Next, travelled to California mountains for a 3 month long mock combat maneuver. -Ate rations during this training. -Once this training was completed the Privates and PFCs were shipped out for D-Day. -Travelled to North Carolina to train a new Division. -He was shipped overseas in January, 1945. -Disembarked in France at the end of January. (00:03:25) Europe and Ohrdruf Concentration Camp -Gradually moved toward Luxembourg, and onward into Germany, then finally near the Czechoslovakian border when the War ended. -Returned to France after the War ended to Camp Lucky Strike. -After 2 months working at Camp Lucky Strike went to Austria until leaving for the US. -Returning to the period before the War ended: prepared to have crossed the Rhine River however another unit did so first. (00:06:15) -After crossing the Rhine, liberated Ohrdruf concentration camp. -The first concentration camp the US liberated. -Bodies everywhere. -Guards would shoot prisoners before the liberation was completed. -Large burials, burned bodies. -Made good friends in the military that endured throughout his lifetime. -On weekends went into town for things like USO dances. -Returning from the War was comforting, knowing he wouldn’t have to leave again. -Not difficult to transition into civilian life. �-He keeps in touch with the 89th Division Society. -Every two years there is a social gathering. -War time experience didn’t affect his life too significantly. -Learned to be self-supporting, truthful, kind. -89th Division fought along with Patton’s 11th Armored Division, 4th Antitank Battalion. (00:12:16) -Consulting with his military documents yields the following info regarding his military roles: -A Platoon Guard -Military service spanned from France, Luxembourg, Germany, and Austria. -Supervised the handling and distribution of rations, ammunition, supplies, and equipment. -Assisted Platoon Sargent in combat movement. [The interviewer is given several documents and papers listing more information about his service.] � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_DuBoisJ1813V Title A name given to the resource DuBois, Joseph (Interview outline and video), 2015 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015-04-10 Description An account of the resource Joseph Dubois was born in Avery Island, Louisiana in a family with 11 siblings. He worked at the local Mc. Ilhenny Tabasco Sauce plant in town. Joseph completed basic training in Little Rock Arkansas. He was placed in the 89th Infantry Division as a Platoon Guard, and continued participating in training combat maneuvers in California and North Carolina. In January of 1945 he arrived in France, travelling through Luxembourg, Austria, and Germany. After crossing the Rhine River, the 89th liberated Ohrdruf concentration camp. Eventually at the border to Czechoslovakia, he awaited with his Division for the Russians to arrive at the end of the War. Once the War had ended Joseph was stationed at Camp Lucky Strike, and then later Austria until leaving Europe for home. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dubois, Joseph Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Schmehil, Jacqueline (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Moving Image Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/x-m4v application/pdf https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8225a4cc0399608f1fd7fe98c8528ae4.mp4 88135c6d1ca4b11d19a6c50df98a3b7e https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9990645011b804105d39bda940d2abe9.pdf 14b8cff48344b1b7ab918a36554dd9c2 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: William Dudas Interview Length: (44:28) Interviewed by James Smither Transcribed by Chloe Dingens Interviewer: We're talking today with Bill Dudas of Jenison, Michigan and the interviewer is James Smither of the Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project. Now Bill, can you begin with some background on yourself to begin with, where and when were you born? I was born in Sawyer, Michigan outside of Benton Harbor and… Interviewer: What year? In 1924. Interviewer: Okay now did you grow up there? Yeah, yes until I was 16 and I- I signed up for the, my mother signed the slip for me to get in thein the army when I was 16 and my father had a fit. I remember hollering and hollering about that. Interviewer: Now the rule at that point was that you had to be seventeen. Had to be seventeen but it was gettin’ up there on September 10th is my birthdate and it- it seemed to everything kind of fell into place and then I met my uncle who was in World War I and he said, “if you do anything, get in the artillery.” So, I did I just used the word artillery. (1:40) Interviewer: Okay now let's back up a little bit, while you were living in Sawyer what did your family do for a living? I lived with my grandparents. Interviewer: Okay. �And my grandfather was an architect and contractor from 1889 to 1933 on the World Affairs. Came from Paris, France, he came from Paris, France married my grandma and she was from Paris, France also. And- and that was on, in Sawyer, Michigan on our great Lake Michigan and there's complications of here because there's years in that on room school I went to and I enjoyed it very much. And kind of freedom that's what I had there, and I had one sister and two brothers with my regular family. And my grandma asked if I could come and stay with them and that's what I did. (2:51) Interviewer: Okay and how old were you when you went to live with them? Four. Interviewer: Okay was this just because it was… Some family tension. Interviewer: Yeah, okay. There, as you'll see in my history book. Interviewer: Alright so basically, you're pretty much brought up by your grandmother then? Just for three years. Interviewer: Three years. And then she passed away. Interviewer: Okay and then did you go back to your mother at that point? Yes, I went back to my mother and father, oh yeah. Interviewer: Alright and then you said you, and now so when did you actually enlist in the army? �In July 29th of- of 1943. Interviewer: Okay. (3:35) Lots of things happen and that till they got off to that. Interviewer: Right, now do you remember how you heard about Pearl Harbor? Yes, I heard, my father heard about it and he called me, and he called us all there. And- and then the phone rang, and the newspaper that I delivered paper for said that they're driving extra papers. That’s what it said on the front “extras!” Chicago, Detroit,” and the News Palladium from Benton Harbor. St. Joe, the twin sister, didn't have a paper yet. Interviewer: Okay so you have to go out there and start selling extras or just delivering them? Yes, yeah- yeah Sunday night we had the papers and we were taking- taking our route, our paper route and you're running up and down the street yelling “extra, extra.” Interviewer: Yeah, the kind of thing we used to see in a lot of old movies... Yes, you’re right. Interviewer: With the paper boy running around. You’re right. Interviewer: Today people don't know what that is. Yeah that’s true, yeah. Interviewer: Okay now then once you, now how did life change at home before you joined the Army? I mean was there rationing going on or that kind of thing? (4:49) �I was an athlete starting from fourth grade, Benton Harbor's noted all over Michigan as an athletic- athletic plant and I started in the fourth grade, running and jumping, shooting baskets, and all that kind of stuff. And went right into the junior high and we had programs in basketball, and some football, and we played football by ourselves and that kind of thing. Interviewer: Okay. Then the basketball was Saturday morning stuff, and, in our neighborhood, we had running meets and all that kind of stuff. Interviewer: Okay now after Pearl Harbor After Pearl Harbor… Interviewer: When you go back to school you at that point, how were things different? How did things change in your community after Pearl Harbor? (5:39) Well the things that happen, they asked for people to join the Army, or Navy, or Air Force, Marines. And I- I don’t, keep saying the Marines will be next to us all the time you know, because we were number one division. And it- it had the- the generals and that that they were all aware of it and then we moved from Texas. Interviewer: Okay. You're- you're kind of jumping, you're- you’re going ahead a little bit, let us back up. Okay. Interviewer: I'm asking about life before you enter the army, so in 1942 and you're still in school at that point. Yeah 1943. Interviewer: Yeah but before you join. �Yeah. Interviewer: What were things like then? What were things like at home in Benton Harbor after the war starts? (6:36) We were patriotic people and as we were in the school the teachers taught, talked to us that way. And if you narrow it down real quick my fifth and sixth grade teacher had a brother in the service, in Alaska building the highway. And I was interested in it and she used to read every letter he wrote back, and then we would write, and then she'd write back to him. And so, the questions were answering back and forth there. And when I got to be 50 years old, I went Alaska. And on the, all the way on the road from the start to the finish. Interviewer: Now okay now did you want to get into the Army as soon as you could? Yes. Interviewer: Okay Yes. Interviewer: And that's why your mother signs. My uncle wanted me in as fast he could, yeah. Interviewer: Right, so you told us, so your mother signed for you. Yes. Interviewer: And you asked to go into the artillery. Yeah. Interviewer: Alright now where did you report to? (7:39) Detroit. �Interviewer: Okay and what happened there? And in Detroit they gave you shots and examined you real close and they were looking for people that were in good- good body shape, good thing. Could run fast, could jump, and the whole thing and this is special training at Camp Wolters, Texas. Interviewer: Okay how did… That’s where I ended up. Interviewer: Okay, how did you get to Camp Wolters, Texas? By train. Interviewer: And what do you remember… There’s no planes in those days. Interviewer: Yeah- yeah, what do you remember about that train ride? That it was a long boring ride to get to Texas. Mineral Wells, Texas they dropped us off there. Interviewer: Okay. Camp Wolters, beautiful camp. Interviewer: Alright. And that's when my life changed, when five of the officer- officers and enlisted men were training us, they were captured by the Japanese in the Philippine Islands. And they escaped, the whole company did, that, we're talking about a thousand people, you know. And- and we had five of them that were training us, and we could run faster, jump higher than they could. We clean ‘em up on their, in the course that we had out there that you had to have instruction on. (9:02) Interviewer: Alright, okay now was this your- your basic training? Basic training. �Interviewer: Okay. 21 weeks. Interviewer: Alright and did the guys, did these instructors, did they tell you how they escaped or what happened to them? No not really. Interviewer: Okay. We- we were so interested in what they were doing for us right there. And- and it kept us alive, kept me alive, I lost all my friends that were there. Interviewer: Now we're there when you started training down there did you know what division you were going to be in? No. Interviewer: Okay so this is just basic for everybody. Yeah basic. Interviewer: Okay and how much emphasis did they put on discipline? All- all of it, solid your non comms, sergeants, corporals, and all of that and be sure you salute all the officers yeah. Interviewer: Now what happened when you did something wrong? Oh I never did anything wrong, I went along what they had because they were gonna keep me alive. Interviewer: Alright. Right. Interviewer: Now did- did some of the other men have more trouble? �(10:05) Yes, oh yes, they- they’re the people that had to get up at four o'clock in the morning for KP service. Anybody goofing around with that whole thing and- and we were kept busy. We had our own football team, our own softball team, right there on the campgrounds. And so, in order to be in- in those things you had to behave yourself and mind the rules. Interviewer: Okay. When they said you're gonna trot for half a mile, well you trotted that. If you didn't, you were in trouble yeah. Interviewer: Alright. And obstacle courses were big in our time, big. I had a big one at our high school built by the athletic director who was the ex- army guy and he's too old to get in now, but he said they have to have this, boy that was the circus for us. Interviewer: Alright now was this, how long did the basic training last? 21 weeks. Interviewer: Okay so that's a long… (11:02) Back on the train and over to New York, and not too far from we could see the Statue of Liberty, and then they shipped us off to En- to En, Wales, really. Interviewer: Now at this point had you been assigned to your unit yet? No. Interviewer: So, you still don't know what, who you're gonna be… Right. More training on the beaches in- in Wales in that area. �Interviewer: Okay because I guess the official history of the division indicates that they formed up in the US. Yes. Interviewer: And then they went over to England and did more training, but did you join them when they… First was Ireland. Interviewer: Right, yeah okay. That was one group and we went to Wales. Interviewer: Right. Cardiff, Wales. Interviewer: Okay. And- and just a great time- a great time. Went British, some British guys were pros at that because they just got out of Dunkirk. Interviewer: Alright so… And I say that nobody knows what I mean by that. Interviewer: Well we do. Yeah. Interviewer: Alright, but they were, that was back in 1940. When did you arrive in Wales? (12:07) In ’44. Interviewer: Okay and about… January of ’44. Interviewer: Alright so the 2nd Division is already in Britain by that time. �They were, Ireland. Interviewer: Yeah, they were Ireland, okay so you're coming, you're still just a replacement. Tell me about the trip across the ocean. It was- it was a beautiful ship; Île de France and it was capacity. Loaded in there four high in the bunks down low and every day we'd go up on top for the, in case of emergency, a torpedo might get at us or something like that. Told us what we had to do and- and the- the rope ladders were thrown overboard and, but we didn't go down the rope ladders, they just said, “there they are.” You have to go down there and get off the ship by the rope ladder. Interviewer: Now was this a converted ocean liner? Yes. Interviewer: Passenger ship? Yes, passenger, a beautiful ship and I'll have to say twenty thousand. (13.10) Interviewer: Okay, and did you sail by yourself? Yes, outrun we could outrun any problem like that, but there was, the Navy was around not too far from us all the time. Interviewer: Okay, so you had escorts of some kind. Yes, oh yeah and we went Scotland first and then we got a train from Scotland and- and guys went in different directions and I went to Wales. Interviewer: Okay. Yeah. Interviewer: Yeah, now how long did you spend in Cardiff? Cardiff? Six months. �Interviewer: Okay. Almost to the day. Interviewer: Now how did the civilians treat the American soldiers? Great, great the restaurants and that their fish and chips, that kind of thing, yeah. And people were great- great and they appreciated us and- and I was of course one of the lucky ones that got to camp way, a long ways from where the Germans were bombing but we could hear it, we could hear it. At night, every single night the Germans would fly over, we'd fire up, make noise andand the bombs going off. That just conditioned us for what we expected on D-Day. (14.19) Interviewer: Right now, what kind of training were you getting by this time? Infantry. Interviewer: Okay. Scouts. Interviewer: Okay, explain a little bit what is a scout? And what do they do? Okay, we would leave at night, go across the line back of the enemy, and then during daytime we'd hide in the fields, and when it got dark again, we started to move around. And we had an artillery observer with us that told his division, the artillery division what we were looking for; the mortar groups, the German mortars, and the German artillery, and that's how far sometimes ten/ fifteen miles behind German lines. Interviewer: Okay. And- and we were trained well in- in Camp Wolters, Texas. How to sneak around there, cops and robbers in the neighborhood, yeah. (15.14) �Interviewer: Okay. Cowboys and Indians. Interviewer: Alright now when you enlisted you had asked to be in the artillery… Artillery, right. Interviewer: But now it sounds like you're training to be in the infantry. They took us, the guys that could run the fastest, can jump the highest, and on the obstacle courses, and- and when you want to, you'd have a race on Saturday or Sundays and make five or ten dollars. A guy would think he was gonna beat me or beat one of us, there in no way. Interviewer: Okay. Because I was in great condition when I went in the service because I trained to be a football player in Benton Harbor. Interviewer: Okay, so because of your athletic ability they took you out and they made you a scout? Yeah, oh yeah. Interviewer: Okay. Oh yeah. Interviewer: Alright. And we would learn all kinds of things in that type of atmosphere, yeah. (16.10) Interviewer: Okay now at what point do you get assigned to your unit? Oh, at D-day. Interviewer: So, you didn't join the division until D-day? �No, until D, after D-day and- and- and I, the picture show I came up with the- the one of the regiments, there's the 9th Regiment and the 23rd Regiment and- and 38th Regiment, that's my regiment. I'm very proud of it all the way. Interviewer: Okay, so when did you meet, and then which company did you join? G Company, 2nd battalion G company. Interviewer: Alright and so when did you meet those men? I- I met ‘em on the way to Trevières, it was about 14 [actually 4] miles from the beach. Interviewer: Okay so… We were replacement people. Interviewer: Aha okay, so how did they, so- so basically talk about the, that time, so when did you leave Cardiff? Was that? (17.14) We left it for- for D-Day. Interviewer: But so, on D-Day? Not the, oh no. Interviewer: Or after D-Day or before? After D-Day, we were- we were in a boat on D-Day. Interviewer: Okay. A- a- a big liner, with you know three or four thousand people, guys on there. Interviewer: Okay was that a liner or was that a… All well trained people. Interviewer: Was that a troop transport ship now? Yeah, yeah. �Interviewer: Okay, now did it have landing craft to land you with or? I think they followed us, I, cause all they had to do is come from Southampton. You could see France in a hurry there, when you got out there on the North Sea. Interviewer: Alright. Yeah. Interviewer: Or the English Channel any way. A lot of noise because over back behind us coming out of Britain are big battleships firing guns that can cover many, 20 miles out. And those, the shells were going over the top of us and they were trying to clean off the beaches. The Germans had prepared all these rigs with railroad ties and all kinds of tracks in there. (18.15) Interviewer: Okay. And you, we used that to protect us from the machine guns up on top of the hill. Interviewer: Alright, now as you, so when, on what day did you land on the beach? On- on D-day that was December 6th/ 7th. December, or June 6th Interviewer: But June 6 was D-Day, but did you actually land on D-Day? No, it was 7th or 8th right in there. Interviewer: Yeah, right, I think… With so much confusion, I never can get it straightened out. I think in my books you'll be able to figure it out there. Interviewer: Okay, now do you remember, did you spend, you know more than one night on the ship waiting to land or just one? Yes, yes. �Interviewer: Yeah, so, you may have landed… The 8th, I think it’s the 8th when we- we came in there. Interviewer: Okay and then when it's time for you to land… Land. Interviewer: How does that work? Worked with the rope and the net that they threw overboard, and you climbed down there and got in the landing craft. And- and of course the landing crafts are famous, in our war and some were blown right out of the water with maybe 40- 50 guys on it and it was quite a serious thing and then when it dropped down, out you went, right up to your shoulders in water. (19.31) Interviewer: Okay so they drop you out that far? Yep- yep not that far, sand bars and all that stuff on the ocean. Interviewer: Okay. And the water was cold it's all I know. And you were, carried our rifles up on top, I had a sub Thompson. Interviewer: So, a submachine gun? Yeah submachine gun, yeah. Interviewer: How much did, how much were you carrying? What kinds of things did you carry with you when you landed? Blanket and rain[?] and half, your half of a tent cause it take two guys to cover up a foxhole with a tent. Interviewer: Right. Over the top you know. �Interviewer: Okay and what else did you carry? A shovel and a bayonet and- and that's a do or die tool. Interviewer: Now were you bringing rations and food? Yes, the yeah, the K-rations, the C's were much later in there. And- and- and four or five packs of that and I didn't smoke, and I didn't drink, so I didn't have to worry about that part of the whole thing. I had one thing in mind, get ashore and get in the hole. (20.39) Interviewer: Okay so when you landed was there any firing or was it quiet? Oh no, there was so much noise, to this day it's too much noise. Interviewer: Okay. I was in the service for 28 months and I think for 20 months there's nothing but that noise, the big guns and that. Interviewer: Okay but the Germans weren't shooting at you? Yes, they were. Interviewer: There were still Germans shooting at the beach? Germans right there- right there, we had to get them off the beach. Interviewer: Okay. Had to get them off all the way to Trevières, that was 14 miles up there and a- a couple other small towns in the way. Interviewer: Right, but I was asking on the actual landing beach itself because you landed on Omaha Beach. Omaha. �Interviewer: And where there still any Germans on Omaha Beach or were they behind there? They were behind. Interviewer: Yeah, okay. (21.27) The, we came, once we got to the beach, we could see the- the- the fortresses that they had there, six to eight foot thick. Interviewer: Yep. Then the big guns, all they do is blow big chunks of cement out, yeah. But the soldiers were still there and a lot of hid out in the trenches, you never knew where anything was until you walked right up on top of it. Interviewer: Okay. And they were prepared for us on there. Interviewer: Alright. We used a lot of hand grenades. Interviewer: Okay. Throw ‘em over to hill. Interviewer: So, you're still helping clear out the Germans from that area. Yeah, you're right and that 14-mile loop across there like this. Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah. Interviewer: Okay now Trevières is only village that's inland, it's not, it's only a couple of miles inland. �Yeah right. Interviewer: It’s not too far, but so that's where you headed? Yeah that's where we're, that was our goal. Interviewer: Okay now did you join your company outside of the town or in it? Yes, I was all of a sudden, I was in the 23rd Regiment. Interviewer: Okay. And we didn't know, when I got up there, I was put in the 38th which I'm very proud of today, yeah. And officers were well-trained. And- and Sergeant Blackmore, he watched every one of us, and he'd see anything wrong and he grabbed you right by your gear and pull you down said, “now what did I tell you?” you know that kind of a guy, and he kept us alive, he kept us alive. (22.56) Interviewer: Okay now do you start doing scouting work right away? Right away. Interviewer: Okay. Right away, they- they- they assigned us to that space going up there. And- and our work was done at night so we could get behind them and- and- and it worked out pretty good and according to the five guys that trained us in camp, they did some tricks we didn't even know they were there, they were there. And those are the things that we carried from the- from the basic training and then the extra training we stay in the six months in Cardiff Wales. Interviewer: Right. Yeah Swansea really. (23.40) �Interviewer: Now when you, do you remember the first time you went out as a scout? The first time you did a scouting. Facin’ Germans? Interviewer: Yeah Okay yes, I remember real well. Interviewer: Okay well what happened? Yeah, we were told there and- and- and Harold was my buddy, he was always first scout, and he was 30- 40 feet, a foot ahead of us there and- and I was down, back there and- and we were spread out 30- 40 foot. Cause one bullet could knock off five or six guys, you know one- one machine gun is so rapid, coming right at you. And- and we had to be careful we didn't get into where- where they’d rap the ground, they get the ground and then raised up there and another gun would take over after that. They had all kinds of drills and we had to solve those before they bring up the rest of the group. Interviewer: Right. In there. (24.40) Interviewer: Okay, now what kind of country were you in? In with s. the famous hedgerows. Interviewer: Okay. That was started 2,000 years before that by the Romans, so we got the history of that what we had, and they were from four-foot-high to twelve foot high. And that they when they plowed their fields, they’d take the big stones out, throw them on the side on their property lines and everywhere was a hedgerow and the Germans had ‘em all spotted, probably had ‘em by number. �And so, they’d, all they had to do is look at their map and- and it's almost wipe us out there, you know they're that quick, and our job was to get to those guys that were with the mortars and the artillery. Interviewer: Right, okay so tell me about that first mission out there, I was asking your first time out there as a scout, you said you were spread out, Harold was your first scout. Yeah, right Harold. Interviewer: Now what actually happened then? (25.35) We went out like that and all of a sudden, they stop us, there are snipers there in the woods. They’re in the trees and you got to get them out of there. Interviewer: Okay. And so that's what we worked on, the cops and robbers thing we did as kids, you know. Interviewer: Yeah, so… And they were in the tree and I have a rifle, Italian rifle, sniper's rifle. And how it got there, I don't know but it had a telescope on it and the whole thing, and I found it there. Interviewer: Okay. Because we dropped the guy out of the tree and I got his rifle, and here I am carrying a sub Thompson and that rifle, I didn’t have any bullets for the rifle. Anyway, I did mail it home when we did stop about 10 days more in there, but we were able to put the things we found, the revolvers and- and the rifles and little things from the soldiers that we overrun. Interviewer: Right, okay now how would you kind of make your way forward if you're trying to go out on one of these missions and you’re in the hedgerow country how did you go about doing that? �(26.46) We had a tank, the tanks got up there and- and they tried to go up the banks, some of them were too high and they go tumbling down the other side, but they're all guns firing, all the time we’re there. So, we're behind tanks. Interviewer: Well I was asking you about when you're a scout. Yeah right. Interviewer: You didn’t have any tanks with you when you're a scout right? Right, but they like to have us out ahead of them. Interviewer: Right. And- and- and they, some of the new officers, in my books you'll find that a number of officers that we lost. There were people, they said, “cause he's an officer he had to be up there in front.” No, you gotta be more than that, you have to be, really exercise that program, yeah. And we cried like the rest of the guys when we lose an officer or one of our sergeants and that the whole thing. We were sick about it, it made us mad that's what it is, yeah. Interviewer: Okay now I'm basically I'm just trying to sort of picture a little bit sort of what you're doing, or in the time that you're in Normandy, I mean you start at Trevières. Now did they capture that town after you got there, or had they captured it already? They- they had captured it before we got there. (28.02) Interviewer: Okay, alright. So, we were 3rd Battalion. Interviewer: Right. The 23rd and the 9th rough outfit. �Interviewer: Okay. They thought they were rough okay, but they- they- they got there and- and we didn't care who, if there were any Germans in the town because the people who live there would tell us where they where at. And the Germans knew that so they got out of the towns as fast as they could. Interviewer: Okay. Yeah, and you build up a friendship with those people and I have a couple letters from the high school it was in Trevières. Interviewer: Okay. And the things like that bring back other great stories, you know. Interviewer: Okay so when you're moving during the day would you ride on tanks and go forward? Not really. Interviewer: Okay. Not really, no, tanks never happened to us ‘till we cross the Rhine River. Interviewer: Alright because I was trying to sort of sort out what was happening in Normandy back at the beginning. Yeah. Interviewer: Now the division moves inland towards Saint-Lô and… Saint-Lô and Trevières. Interviewer: Yeah, after Trevières. In a line there. Interviewer: Well and then Saint-Lô is farther inland. Yes right. �(29.11) Interviewer: Okay now the division fought a battle at a place called Hill 192. That's- that’s what I was gonna just tell ya… Interviewer: Okay. The 9th and the 23rd went in there and beat ‘em up pretty good but they lost- they lost it. And they pulled up my outfit in there, the 38th and our luck, the Germans scampered out of there. They dropped back into Saint-Lô, because they were, we had to get that hill because they were using it for their artillery Scouts. And in that hole works and they had built big towers on hill 90- 192 in there and I happen to be one of lucky guys to get there first, you know. Interviewer: Okay. Yeah. Interviewer: So, after you got there, what happened next? We reformed- reformed into our own groups. Interviewer: Right. And we picked up the artillery guys and we down, go out and locate the 81 mortars, they’re the bad news to us and the 88 artillery and they were doubly bad news and- and find them right away and they’d radio back and- and the radios in that time was not a cell phone, it was a pack on the back of a guy that carried a pistol, that's the only defense that guy had. But the- the officers that were there from the artillery were giving ‘em all the places that- that we thought or maybe they were, they were clever about moving around. (30.48) Interviewer: Okay. Yeah. �Interviewer: Now would the Germans try to find you? Oh yeah. Interviewer: Okay. They know, well the Germans knew everything we did. We just had more guys, more people, and after a while, more tanks. Right and that's where the, when I say ‘tanks,’ they had power blades on some of ‘em. Interviewer: Right. They just knocked the wall, hole in the wall and bust through there and start firing a whole thing, let us go through then, walking. Interviewer: So that's the… …running across the field. Interviewer: They were doing that at the end of July when they had the breakout… Yes. Interviewer: …from Normandy and take Saint- Lô You’re right, break out of Germany. Interviewer: Okay, now while you were in Normandy still, before the breakout did you manage to find any German batteries or guns? Yes. Interviewer: That your people knocked out? Right, well we found them and located ‘em so that the artillery observers… Interviewer: Right. …could radio back with a guy with a big pack on his back, and, the, we had to protect him. If the Germans tried to get our radio. �Interviewer: Right. That would, half of their battle’s over with then, they, but there were a lot of things like that and I refer to cowboys and Indians and all- all the other stuff, it’s the little tricks like that that you learn, kick the can. (32.12) Interviewer: Now how many men would be together if you're going out scouting, how many of you would there be? Ten to sixteen. Interviewer: Okay. That's almost the whole squad, but you don't want a squad to get wiped out because that's part of a, the drawing, you know, map. Interviewer: Right. And- and- and we had to report back right away if we're losing guys, so they'd forced some guys up, come up there in the middle of the night. And I always have the famous story there, “halt,” you know, “what do you mean halt?” “Halt,” and- and so the guy would say, “Kellogg's,” and you better know the answer. Do you know the answer to that? Interviewer: I’d go with cornflakes. That's right. Interviewer: American culture. That’s a simple one. Interviewer: Yeah. But we had stiffer ones the further out we got into the, into France. �Interviewer: Okay now if somebody did get hit, if you took any casualties what would you do with them? “Medic,” you yell “medic.” Interviewer: Well but if you're out on a patrol, did you have a medic who would be in your squad. Yeah, right yeah, one of the sixteen guys sometimes, one of the seventeen guys, but he just carried the bandages you know. (33.24) Interviewer: Yeah, but then what would you, what could you do? I mean if one of your men is wounded and you're behind enemy lines. Yeah right. Interviewer: Do you carry him out? What do you do? Well yeah, we carry him out. We'd get him out in the, at night. We get, we had to go through the line to get- get back with our company through the German, had to go back through the German and they knew we were out there somewhere, yeah. Interviewer: Okay. And just say they had every hedgerow was numbered in their- their life. Interviewer: Right, okay now once the breakout, I guess one of the things that happened at Saint-Lô was at one point we sent large numbers of heavy bombers. Yes 2000. Interviewer: Yeah and did- did you hear any of that or see any of that? �I laid in the hole watching them going by, they’re wing to wing. And- and all we were doing is cheering, there was no, the only noise we could hear was the antiaircraft from the Germans, yeah, but they really combed Saint-Lô out. Interviewer: Yeah, now did you go through the town? No. Interviewer: Okay, you went around? We went to Breat, we were going to Brest. Interviewer: But to get to Brest, you had to get there somehow. (34.32) Yeah, the crossroads, that was a battle. Now they had a lake and a crossroads in French property and another small time in St. Mary's something like that, that we had to run right through the town and let the guys behind us get the Germans out of ‘em, we had to get in deep into France. Interviewer: Right. As deep as we could so we can get to, meet up with the 4th Division to get to Brest. Interviewer: Right. The submarine port and that was really protected, yeah. Interviewer: Okay now how, so Brest is all the way out at the end of Brittany. Yes. Interviewer: So that's a good ways from Normandy, heading west. Right. Interviewer: Now what happened to you during that advance? That's where I jumped over and turned this foot to ankle here and fractured now in here in the front part here. �Interviewer: Okay so you- you managed to break your ankle while chasing the Germans? Yeah, yeah, fractured really. Interviewer: So not a full brake? Everything was stretched because I had a pack on and I weighed 200 pounds- 220 pounds and great shape, great shape, yeah. (35.41) Interviewer: Okay, so once you hurt your ankle, what did they do with you? They- they pulled me out, it hurt, it really hurt. And- and I- and I thought it was broken at first, so I'm crawling around my hands and knees for a while to- to let people know that there's an open space where I was out there. And the, course we were Scouts, the whole group were Scouts and we were all different Scouts, and they, the medic looked at it and he said, “you have to go back to the aid center,” and so, I crawled back to the aid center and then the following day they put me on a- a big airplane and took me back to the hospital. Interviewer: Okay and where was the hospital? In, of course in England. Interviewer: Okay. That's where they, the, that big plane landed there with a lot of P-38s my favorite airplane, the twin Woolmer. And they put us on the plane, we're all laying down on there and the plane took off and landed on the other side, real quick trip across that there. (36.51) Interviewer: Right. And the hospital people waiting for us there and- and they had crude x-rays in those days and they just decided that they would have to build a frame for my foot on there cause they couldn't �see if it was broken down lower in the foot part of it, that- that foot. And might have taken the rest of my life to have a broken bone there and they couldn't handle it, yeah. Interviewer: So how long did you stay in the hospital? Four weeks. Interviewer: Okay. Four weeks, really three weeks and I had one week of freedom. Met a lot of great people. Interviewer: So, what did you, so could you leave the hospital? Yes, leave the private, the grounds in fact, leave the grounds there, we’d go into town and- and it was, its Swansea there. Interviewer: Okay, so, you're back kind of on your home turf again. (37.45) Back- back there and on and- and met some guys that had about the same thing I had in there. And one guy was from the 1st Division and they were always bumping up against us, we get twisted around sometime, you guys get out of here you know, we're here, you know Interviewer: That's right. But that's the way it was because France is really a small country, everything is small. Interviewer: Well and initially, well 1st Division went on Omaha Beach ahead of you. Yeah, yeah. Interviewer: And so, they were right in that same beachhead area…. Yeah, right. Interviewer: …where you’re coming out too and several- several other times later on they were right next to you. �Right next to you and the paratroopers, we were still picking up paratroopers along. That's where the joke came with ‘Kellogg's’ and the guys, he, if he'd say ‘Bran Flakes’ we'd let I'm in and watch him. Interviewer: Alright. But it was cornflakes, that was the main drop off on there. And of course, they had their own codes to. Interviewer: Sure. They, guys in the glider troops and that seemed to be, we were in that in the flatlands in there, but they had to land in there where all these little, high hedgerows were at there. And a lot of them would bury their nose of that plane right there, into the- the end of that bank that was there. (38.59) Interviewer: Right, okay now when did you go back to France? I, and I went back to- to, after four weeks there and I went back to Paris. Interviewer: Okay. I didn't know my outfit was there, they just dropped me off and then they told me that the 2nd battalion of Company G who was there. I thought it was great, you know so that's when I called my two grandparents there, great-great grandparents. Interviewer: Okay. And the first one/ person I called was the Bulhoures [?] and they were tickled to death they couldn't think you know, and they were gonna try to come to us. It's pretty hard- hard to do that because we took over all the hotels there. Interviewer: Right. (39.45) �We were there to guard trains from Paris, France to the front line of- of, in Belgium. Interviewer: Right so is this September when you get back? Or is it September or? Yeah. Interviewer: Okay. Yeah. Interviewer: Alright and so you could use the French phone system to call people? Was that how you did it? Right, well I, the- the- the lady and the man were in the hotel, running the hotel there. Interviewer: Okay. …they took care of that part, so I got the Deduc [?] Castle, my grandma's there and she said, “you know if the Germans come back here, they're gonna kill us cause we're talking to you.” And I said, “we're here and nobody gonna kill you.” Interviewer: Right. “We're here,” and- and my grandfather said, he's a, when I went back to the United States a year later, “they're a bunch of rummies over there on your grandma's side.” Interviewer: Alright. Anyway, it was great, it was great. Interviewer: And when you were in Paris… Paris. Interviewer: …did you get time to just go see the city or? (40.45) Yes, I got pictures of me hugging the big part of the Eiffel Tower and the Arc de Triomphe. The both of them stand out. �Interviewer: Yep. And I heard about them from my grandparents before I ever thought of a war, you know. Interviewer: Now when you were a kid did you learn any French? Yes, I took French in junior high. Interviewer: Okay. Our junior high was the 9th grade, yeah. Interviewer: Okay. And I had some of the words down pretty good. Interviewer: Okay but did your grandparents ever speak French at home? Yes, when the- the storms were bad, we were in Lake Michigan, they would talk in French andand I, and the maid never knew it either, and I never knew how to speak French either. Interviewer: Alright, okay so how long did you stay in Paris? Two weeks. Interviewer: Okay. Yeah, I had two trips to the- to the front lines. Interviewer: Okay. Got back in the noise again. Interviewer: Alright and so where was your division when you rejoined them, what, where was the division now? We- we were up in Belgium. Interviewer: Okay. (41.47) �And- and pretty close to the big force there, Hurtgen Forestand we took somebody's place that was there, and we were only gonna be there a short time, but it ended up be almost a month. Interviewer: Alright. And so, we deluxed our holes in the ground. Interviewer: Okay, now when you were there were you attacking or were you just holding your position? Holding ground. Interviewer: Okay. We had to wait for the British to come up on our left over there and wait for the 4th Arm- 4th Division and a little bit of something in the 1st Division, I never did figure that one out. Interviewer: Okay so you weren't attacking in the Hürtgen Forest, you were just near it. No, holding. Interviewer: Yeah, you were holding. Holding. Interviewer: Okay, now did the Germans bother you while you were there? Yes, they did, they learned how to make bom- their bombs. They'd explode above the trees andand knock all the snow down and lee- leaves, the limbs, on- on that. And so, we’d take all the extra stuff that fell down after we survived, some guys didn't, they got caught with a shrapnel. Interviewer: Right. A lot of shrapnel come eighty- eights, yeah. And- and sometimes we said that they shoot right directly into the force, right at the trees and that stuff there. And our safest place was facing the Germans and- and behind the tree, grab a hold and wrap your arms around a tree, like our pine forest that we have in Michigan for the CCC's. �(43.19) Interviewer: Yep. The same way. And- and the forests were big time money for those people. Interviewer: Now were you doing scouting work then? Oh yeah. Interviewer: Okay. Oh yeah. Interviewer: And so… We go back when we didn't have a job to do, we go back maybe a mile and- and- and pull ourselves together again because we were living out there on nothing but K-rations. Interviewer: Right. Yeah. Interviewer: Okay, now how close did you get to getting caught? Did I? Only one bullets to hit, one of the Germans ran out of bullets and I ran out, I got carted here bullets too. Interviewer: Okay but did you ever, do they ever get close to capturing you? Not, no they were dead. Interviewer: Okay. They ever dead. Interviewer: Okay, so basically you didn't really have any close calls? Oh- oh yeah, you make a mistake some time on there, but a guy will back you up on, one of your buddies will back you up on that if you didn't see ‘em. And- and we're talking about Scouts, our job was scouting so there was a lot of distance between us. �Interviewer: Yep. And they could tell us you know, and a hand signals helped, yeah. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_DudasW1896V1 Title A name given to the resource Dudas, William (1 of 2, Interview transcript and video), 2015 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015-11-05 Description An account of the resource William Dudas was born in Sawyer, MI, just outside of Benton Harbor, in 1924. Dudas enlisted in the Army on July 29, 1943, shortly after the bombing of Pearl Harbor. He was selected for scout training and trained at Camp Walters in Texas. Dudas spent six months training in Cardiff, Wales, preparing for the D-Day invasion and landed on Omaha beach a day or two after the first wave, joining his unit on its way to Trevieres, France. Dudas' unit participated in the Battle at Hill 192 and advanced in a rapid push to Brest where he injured his leg during the advance and was sidelined for four weeks before rejoining his unit in Paris. His unit also participated in combat in the Hurtgen Forest, Battle of the Bulge, acrossing the Rhine River, and advancing into Czechoslovakia. After the war, he left the service and attended Western Michigan University to became a high school teacher. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dudas, William L. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, RHC-27 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Language A language of the resource eng Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant World War II https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/221c95d3022d181027a86bce0e0bcda0.mp4 938802c58df28352aaf95aa193cab707 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8a77f48ee15eec53779992fab891872a.pdf 4d5b15045a809bfb90d6546d26d41422 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Oral History Interview Veteran: William Dudas Interview Length: (34.32) Interviewed by James Smither Transcribed by Chloe Dingens Part 2 Interviewer: So, when you were scouting out there, how long would you stay out? We got, we’d hide in the daytime. Interviewer: Yep. And we have to watch for the flares light the whole area up just like daytime. We make sure we can get down fast enough. Interviewer: Okay but how many nights would you be out? About four nights. Interviewer: Okay. Four nights, six days, yeah. We used to have it all marked. Interviewer: And then how long a break would you get before you had to go back? No, we were on duty right away, yeah. Interviewer: Okay but you said sometimes you got to go back to the rear and recover. (1.07) Yeah, right to get our clothes repaired, get a- a new pair of pants, or something like that, underwear, and that whole thing, and socks, boy. Interviewer: Alright, now after you moved out of that area what did you do next? Well we, they up in line, we make sure that our holes, we could be deep enough cause if they broke tanks through on us, we could get down to the bottom of the holes. �Interviewer: Right, I guess I was asking after you finish, you said you were about a month near the Hurtgen Forest. Yeah, right. Interviewer: And then what did your unit do next? We- we headed for one of the areas that had big name- big name, starts with a ‘W’ and, [unintelligible] and we captured the town, the 23rd really captured the town, they then they called us in and then they sent sixteen of us a, on a trip to get the Germans out of the town of Schmitt, over twelve/ fifteen miles. And because they were gonna blow up the dams and they'd have flooded our, all the areas that the British were in and part of our outfit. The 9th would have been there, so we went through the 9th Division, the 38th and they took sixteen of us there and we went along the shore of Roer River. (2.35) Interviewer: Right it's R-O-E-R. Yeah, right. Interviewer: Roer River, yep. Yeah, right and we're, it took us two days, fifteen miles is one day's work, you know but a couple days. Had to be careful that they didn't set a trap for us. No Germans, no Germans at all. It's like somebody forgot to tell them, you know but we got the, right to the dam and the- the guy with the radio called the artillery man there, they had word for us to come back. The Germans are attacking on December 16. Interviewer: Okay so… I'll never forget the date. Interviewer: Alright. �I had to turn and that- had to turn and come back and a little bit of daylight too. Interviewer: Okay and how long did it take to get back? About two days. Interviewer: Okay. Because you get killed if- if they see out there, they get the mortars after you or a rifleman and, or- or these guys they called their extra marksman, expert marksman. Interviewer: Yeah, okay and so now you get back, now do you go back to where the 9th Division is and then move from there? (3.44) Yeah, we yeah, we- we went back exactly where we know the spot where we were at. Interviewer: Yeah. Because we had a, at- at night we'd move out and before it got daylight, we dig a hole to stay in that hole. Interviewer: Right- right, but then how long did it take you to get back to the 2nd Division? About three days? That, we're all 2nd Divisions. Interviewer: Yeah well, I know but you said you- you were sent off as a detachment. Oh okay… Interviewer: And you moved through… Sixteen guys. Interviewer: Yeah, those sixteen guys. Yeah. Interviewer: So, but then you eventually rejoin your regular company. �Yes- yes, in fact and- and we join the- the 29th, the 23rd- the 23rd regiment. Interviewer: Right. E Company and we had to stop there because they had something for us to do there. Interviewer: Right. And so, they kept sending us back further and further and that's when we got all new clothes. Interviewer: Okay. (4.38) That and not only that but the- the weather was starting to change. Snow was there and we had to get rid of the warm or warm weather clothes that we had and put the overcoats on and that whole thing and got right back up in- in there and then famous Falaise Gap, we pushed up right up against that and then made that right-hand turn to go to Brest. Interviewer: Okay, now- now you've backed us up a little bit, that was back in Normandy. Yeah. Interviewer: But we were talking about… Well Normandy is all of France, the beach area. Interviewer: Nope but that's back, but in your story, we had gotten you up along the Belgian-German border. Yes. Interviewer: And started the Battle of the Bulge. That's right. Interviewer: So that's what I kind of wanted to get to next. Okay well I- well I’m working my way there. Interviewer: Alight. �I had to add a few funny things that happened in there. Interviewer: Okay, okay. Well we got in there and the Germans had the tanks all lined up and along the roads Air Corps was doing the best job they could do was make ‘em spread out and everything. Dropping bombs on ‘em and a few of us they dropped on. And the guys with bazookas we had to make sure that they had fresh batteries, that's how you fire a pistol. (5.50) Interviewer: Okay. Not many people know. Interviewer: I didn't know that. Okay, but anyway, our guys, we had four or five guys in the town of Krinkelt, that was the first town and we had ‘em stationed there so they could shoot that bazooka and take off one track and try to move a tank with one track, all he does is make a circle, make a circle and use all his animation up. We had three of them, we got three of them on our street right there and- and the funny thing about it there were anti-tank guys that had bazookas not the guns, the fifty-nine millimeter. Interviewer: Yeah. …cannons there because the first time the Germans that see that flash and that, they knew that, where it was and- and we lost a lot of anti-tank guys. Interviewer: Yeah. Right. Interviewer: Because the anti-tank… I was trained in that too. �(6.48) Interviewer: The anti-tank and that's just a gun that's no protection for the crew. Yeah right, right, right so we- we got the Trevières is back- back behind us about six- seven miles on there Hill 192 is over here and Saint-Lô. We had too many troops in there and they were digging a lotta holes that’s all you could see. Interviewer: Okay but that's again, that's back in Normandy. Yes. Interviewer: Now- now when you were knocking off the tracks of the tank so that was in Krinkelt , that was Belgium… Interviewer: That- that- that's Battle of the Bulge. Battle of the Bulge started yeah. Interviewer: Right, okay and what else do you remember about the Battle of the Bulge? We're six days in this one house and the Germans had burned off the roof with the shells and we were down below. And- and because big boulders, the houses were made big boulders like that, the tanks would shoot through the windows with their one-on-one somebody we're gonna make inner circle around down on the street. That's as far as they got, but that all stopped all of a sudden, all they were doing, noise you’d hear you know the big cannons and that stuff back out of the way, our cannons, 105 big stuff. And we finally got a break there, but it was cold, and we lost- we lost Lieutenant Welsh he was, he thought he could get out the door and get over to the next house but didn't make it. And- and we lost a corporal there too. (8.24) Interviewer: Okay now did you have to pull out of the house and retreat? �No- no we- we were there with nothing that was it, they said, “you stay here.” Interviewer: Okay. Krinkelt. Interviewer: Yep. Two houses. Interviewer: Okay. Two towns, too many guys. Interviewer: Yeah, I guess the, in- in the history books it says we did withdraw from those villages eventually. Oh yeah we withdrew with ‘em and we went back to the town where the Germans were and all our letters and Christmas present boxes from our parents and all that stuff was spread out all over. They opened up everything, in fact I lost the watch, my mother bought me a new watch and sent it, so a German probably today has still got a watch there, I got there. Interviewer: Okay. But it- it they- they pulled us back and- and there was, they had, they figured out some way to keep enough artillery bangin’ back for ‘em so the Germans would fall back and then we could get out of the houses. Interviewer: Right. (9.31) It didn't work that way though, we had to fight our way back… Interviewer: Okay. By using the- the guns we'd had there and we were getting low on ammunition because when a guy get killed some, we take these- take his gun and his ammunition right on there and- and we �went back and lucky me, like Paris, they sent me back to another town and I got another new set of clothes on there. And then we got back up on the front line and then we started chasing Germans to the Rhine River. Interviewer: Right. Right, and that's when the Navy came up with rubber boats and- and I don't know how they ever got that far without losing you know a lot of guys or something, but they didn't. They had it figure out pretty good and at midnight we jumped in the boats and went across the river and we got over there- there were no Germans there, that was the funniest feeling you know. (10.36) Interviewer: Now is this when you're crossing the Rhine River? Rhine River, yeah. Interviewer: Okay, Oh yeah. Interviewer: So that's gonna be about in March now. Well it was still cold. Interviewer: Yeah. Still really cold, yeah. I- I get my, sometimes I’m- I'm a month ahead. Interviewer: Yeah. You know, in my thinking on there. Interviewer: The Rhine crossing started in March. Yeah in March yeah… Interviewer: In February were… Well we were there before March. �Interviewer: Yeah. The 2nd Division our objective was Czechoslovakia. Interviewer: Yeah. And when you look at the maps in my book you can see the line. Interviewer: Yeah. And we went through all those towns. Interviewer: But sort of thing where the Battle of the Bulge is December into January. Yeah right, right. Interviewer: And in January then you're attacking eastward toward Germany and toward the Rhine Yes. Interviewer: You probably get to the Rhine February maybe, so you get to one side of it. Yeah, we waited- we waited about two weeks there, digging the holes deeper and then we’d scout we go out there and look at the Rhine you know and we'd see, try to see a mile, it was about a mile and a quarter they said right where we were at. Interviewer: Yeah. And- and- and- and we had a fit because they came up there with rockets. Ten rockets in a blast. Interviewer: Right. (11.49) Zip- zip- zip one right after another, ten then they go back and load it up. We didn't want the Germans to try to find ‘em you know and here we were there. Interviewer: So, you couldn't shoot at them. The deep holes. �Interviewer: So, you wouldn't shoot at them because you didn't want them to hit you. That's right, they're right- right. Interviewer: Okay. We didn't want them to expose where we were. Interviewer: Okay. But there, a lot of houses along the river, lot a- lot a house, but we weren't allowed to do that, we didn't storm the houses. There were troops behind us that was their job to get that, we couldn't touch any of the prisoners at these small camps that we get the German- German captured guys you know and that's, we weren't allowed to touch any of those guys, you couldn't shake hands or anything we're just yell at them and because we didn't know what diseases they had. Interviewer: Right. And- and people don't realize that you know that whole thing, hooray they're here, you know. Forget it stay there don't get near me. Interviewer: So, are you passing different kinds of camps as you go forward? Yes, yup- yup. (12.58) Interviewer: So, there were prisoner of war camps? Prisoner of war camps. Interviewer: Okay. And they were used on the working things, building pill boxes and building roads and that type of thing. Interviewer: Well and the Germans also used a lot of slave laborers from other European countries. �Right. Interviewer: So, and then there were the concentration camps where they had Jews and… Concentration camps, Polish people. Interviewer: Yeah, yeah. Okay they're putting their hands through the barbed wire and trying to touch us, and we were… Interviewer: Don't- don't touch your microphone by the way. Yeah. Interviewer: Okay. They're trying to touch us in there and- and- and they warned us every day, we got tired of it you know. We weren't gonna touch them anyway but they're so glad, they're crying and yelling and screaming you know, hooray, they're here. Interviewer: Yeah, now were you able to give them food or do they tell you not too? I don't know, we don't know because we were ahead. Interviewer: Okay. Our job was Czechoslovakia. Interviewer: Alright now as you were, so when you cross the Rhine did you cross the Rhine in boats, in rubber boats or? Rubber boats, yeah that the Navy had ‘em there. (14.02) Interviewer: Alright. Yeah and- and we came out nobody shooting at us, like something happened, shut the war off or something there, a lot of noise. Interviewer: And then… �A lot of flares. Interviewer: And now you're marching across Germany. Yeah. Interviewer: Now were you still doing your scouting missions? Yes, we were cause… Interviewer: Where you still going up ahead? And I could have cried when I had to put a- a phosphorus bomb in the cockpit of a Stuka bomber, I did it, I made it as a- a kid, found my balsa wood and all that. Interviewer: Right. And all that as a kid and I had it hang in the ceiling it was- it was probably 18 inches long and the whole thing, here I had to get into the cockpit and just drop it down in there, all the controls and it was gone, phosphorous bombs we carried ‘em on our clothes like hand grenades. Interviewer: Right, right. (14.55) The hand grenades wouldn't have helped at all, this we burned ‘em. Interviewer: So, yeah so you- so you found a German dive bomber just sitting out there? Well it, yeah, they had, this was a repair base. Interviewer: Okay. Or something like that. Interviewer: Okay. And- and we had orders, “burn ‘em”. Yeah, and- and how did they know they were there? When they’d fly over, who cares up there, they don't worry about it but on the ground, we got to, had to burn them and we did the same thing to their barracks, we burned them. �Interviewer: Okay. Yeah. Interviewer: Now did you meet much opposition, were the Germans… Not- not too much. Interviewer: Okay. Not too much, there's numerous towns where the guys had to get tough with youngsters that maybe were 12, 14, 15 years old, bad news. Interviewer: Yeah. And- and we put ‘em down the floor, face down on the floor, stay right there and if they even rolled over, we lay one on ‘em you know. You take your bayonet on and stick it on the end of your gun, that stopped a lot of things yeah. Interviewer: Okay. We learned those things from- from basic training, yeah. (16.03) Interviewer: Okay what were these kids doing, how were they behaving that made you have to deal with them? Well they were surprised we were there. Interviewer: Okay. Yeah, this is, it was just getting near the center of well maybe 50 miles into Germany. Interviewer: Right. And then all of a sudden General Patton, George Patton sent the 3rd Armored Division over to the 2nd Division, 38th Infantry and I was one of the lucky ones and you'll see the pictures of my tank with the guys hanging on to it. �Interviewer: So, now you got to ride on a tank? Got to ride on a tank, yep. Interviewer: Alright and is that, and did you stay with the tanks and go all the way to Czechoslovakia that way? To the border. Interviewer: Okay. To the boarder. Interviewer: Alright. And then you got off and started to walk again. We were in friendly company there and the- the Czechs would tell us if there were any Germans in there, so we moved along pretty fast, in fact sometimes we had the trucks carry us 6x6 as they called. (17.06) Interviewer: Yep. They put probably 20 guys in there who were shoulder-to-shoulder inside that thing, maybe three in the seat with the driver, yeah. Interviewer: Okay and where were you when the war ended in Europe? In Pilsen. Interviewer: Okay. My dad's parents’ hometown. Interviewer: Okay. Can you believe that I had it in- in Paris there and Dudas is spelled Dudar there, Interviewer: So… D-U-D-A-R and- and that's because R’s and S’s when you write them, look the same. �Interviewer: Okay so your father's family came from Czechoslovakia. From Pilsen. Interviewer: And then they moved to France and then they moved to the U.S.? No, the- the ones in Paris moved right to the United States. Interviewer: Right. World Fair's 1889, World's Fairs. Interviewer: World’s Fair okay sure. That started it for us in 1933. (18.01) Interviewer: Okay. And I read- I rode the skyrocket- the skyrocket in Chicago. Interviewer: Yeah. Way up above the air- the area there I don't want to slip back a little bit here. Interviewer: Now that’s- that's your figuring it out yeah… Alright but if Grandma and Grandpa from Paris, they came from Pilsen, Czechoslovakia. My father's parents. Interviewer: Okay. Yeah never close to them at all, they lived in Cicero and they were all members of the group and Cicero Illinois, yeah. Interviewer: Okay, alright now when you got to Pilsen did you ever see any of the Russians? Yes, I saw ‘em trying, comin’ on the bridge and they got to there where we had it written on in English, “stop or you're gonna be shot.” That's the way we put it and they're probably some guys �did get there because they were on guard probably a hundred- football field away, anyway from that tank that was in the middle of the bridge and… (19.04) Interviewer: Okay so you saw the Russians in the distance? 4th Division finally took it over and that. Interviewer: Okay alright, now so how long did you stay in Czechoslovakia? I was there about two months. Interviewer: Okay. They had me and- and my, I'd say the whole Company G was there and in my book you see pictures of the guys, I took pictures of them because I was the first one let out, I had five campaigns in, yeah. Interviewer: Okay so your company was still there? Yeah. Interviewer: When you got this, when you were told you could go home. Go home, yeah. Interviewer: You had enough points, okay. That was a long trip, I have a couple weeks. Interviewer: Okay, tell me, I want to ask some other things. Did you see many German prisoners of war? Captured Germans, did you see them? No because we went by those people. Interviewer: Okay. We saw thousands of those German guys walking, told go the back behind us. (20.05) �Interviewer: Okay. They were prisoners really, but we were on tanks. Interviewer: Right. They’d go off to the side of the road, even walk in the gullies on the side of the road because we had the big tanks and you'll see the pictures of the tanks. Interviewer: And- and what did they look like to you? Torn, worn out. Interviewer: And were they about your age or older or younger? Well there were some areas that we- we caught some of those guys when we were in Belgium, younger 14- 15- 16 years old. Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah. Interviewer: Okay so they have kids. Yeah. Interviewer: Did you see older men too? Not- not too many. Interviewer: Okay. Maybe around the- the- the buildup fortresses. Interviewer: Right. That they had in different places, but don't let the churches fool you, that was a motto we had, don't let the churches fool you with these snipers were up in the tower up there. And we’d get the tank up there and take the top right off the tower, yeah. You hate that you know. (21.12) �Interviewer: Yeah. And I'm kind of a religious person and I always think I'm home when I see a church, you know so. Interviewer: Okay and then how did the people in Czechoslovakia treat you? They loved us, we have a- we have our own business office in Pilsen today and I’ll give ya a story with Pilsen. Interviewer: Okay. I wanted to go to Pilsen because I heard about the office there and all the fun they were having there and I got a letter from a congressman and he says, “you can't go over this year, they're having a few problems over there.” And- and I've never been able to figure out anything and I was gonna, I wanted to go to Pilsen and see if I could find any Dudas’s there and go back to Paris that way, get a plane there to come back to the States there. I had dreams of this, go doing that. Interviewer: Okay. But it didn't work out that way and- and- and I have a lady that takes care of sending troops or us back over there and that and we're pretty good friends, and she has the agency that does that over there. She had a fit when that congressman wrote me- wrote me the letter said, “don't go this year anyway.” Interviewer: Okay what year was that? (22.38) What year was that? I'll have to see about 2001 maybe in there, 2002. Interviewer: Okay. That’s just were in ‘15 now. �Interviewer: Yeah, I don't know what was going on then, I mean other than maybe after we went into Iraq or Afghanistan. Yeah. Interviewer: Or something, they were worried about something but… Yeah right- right- right. Interviewer: Anyway, okay. Yeah, my and we were really into that war there, the 23rd is all gone now if they've all been sent home. The 9th was in Afghanistan and they're still there but they're currently gonna come home too, we have different names now. Interviewer: Right now, are there other things when you think about the time that you spent in Europe during the war, are there other memories that kind of stand out for you? (23.29) Well, being in the front, everyone’s different, everything was different, and the- and the most different thing was getting to Brest because Patton hadn't pulled up with his big group up there yet, to spread out from Marseille, and spread out along there. That big wave there and then we were from the beach and there had to make contact with them. And we still had glider troops and paratroopers, you know. Either all shot up or something and- and the pair, or the people in France would tell us about where they're at there, they’d pull ‘em in there and try to get ‘em well and the whole thing. Interviewer: Cause they were scattered all over Brittany, the area you’re going through. All- all over Brittany, the Loire that's the good word yeah. Interviewer: Because that had still been behind German lines for a long time before you got there. �Yep, long time, yeah. (24.25) Interviewer: Okay so you're rescuing those guys… Yeah right, well we heard about ‘em and- and maybe the lieutenants and the sergeants were going and look at ‘em, would, not us. We had one thing to do is look and see if Germans were right in front of us. Interviewer: Right- right. And when we didn't see ‘em, we were worried about it yeah, right. And- and- and I and on the way to Brest I lost- I lost that part of my being in the service, you know going back to the hospital and then going back to Paris, which was great. And it- it Harold has died a year ago and, in my notes, and that whole thing I got his, I have his obituary in the- in the- in the book in there. Interviewer: Okay and then one of the men in your squad wrote a book? No, he didn't write it, his son. Interviewer: His son wrote it, okay that's it. His son and- and he has a feeling just totally, how he felt, how his brother felt and his- his brothers, the, Harold's really a sharp guy, he was number one scholar. He was smarter than I was, he was a year older, but we had fun there bluffing the Germans, you know. (25.44) Interviewer: Okay. And they probably did it to us too, we didn't know, yeah. Interviewer: Yeah alright but you must've been pretty good at it because you're still alive. Yes yeah. Interviewer: Alright. �Yeah, they, up there they're watching me, you know. I got a grandma up there watching me too. Interviewer: Something. Alright now you got your orders to tell you it's time to go home. Right. Interviewer: Then what happens? Well they came in and- and there are only two of us that have five campaigns and that was 90 points. Interviewer: Right. Right there. Interviewer: Right, and so then what happens? And then they put us on a train, and we spent a week in Nürnberg, where Hitler started this whole thing here and I have a- a nut, and a bolt, and a washer, brass, that big. I took off the Eagle that some smart guy in the tank corps blew it right off with a gun, you know, but I- I was again II got a wrench from one of tankers and I went up there and I took it off and I have it, it's on display in the Granville museum. (26.51) Interviewer: Very good. Yeah. Interviewer: Alright. And the kids all wanted to handle it, I give it to, and I was teaching classes and- and- and second graders they can't wait to put your uniform on, the jacket and the whole thing and we do that so they get a feeling. Interviewer: Sure. Of what we're doing. �Interviewer: Alright. And some parents had a fit, but that's all the kids talk about when they go home. Interviewer: Well yeah, okay so you spend a week in Nürnberg and then do they put- put you on another train then? Another train, yeah. Interviewer: Where do you go? We waited until more soldiers came. Interviewer: Right. …up there and we were right in the center where Hitler started the whole war/works, yeah. Interviewer: Right, and then where did you ship out from? From Antwerp. Interviewer: Okay. Yeah. Interviewer: And what kind of ship were you on? Same one, Île de France, going the other way, yeah. I was so surprised about it but boy I was sick all the way, not sick going over but coming back, yeah. Interviewer: Was the weather worse? Well not really, but I had lost so much weight. I was- I was I'll have to say 225, I was 155. (27.58) Interviewer: Okay. The eating you know wasn't all up to standards in- in that part of it. Interviewer: Yeah. �And I have 26 medicines I take every day, I take 13 in- in the morning, and 13 at night, my daughter has it in little boxes every day as mentioned there. Interviewer: Alright. Yeah. Interviewer: So, and then where did you land in the U.S.? Orangeburg, I'm quite sure it's Orangeburg, yeah because they gave me a day in Paris or in New York City. Interviewer: Okay. Yeah you, they had it all set for you. Interviewer: Okay. USO? Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah. Interviewer: Okay so you go into Camp, probably Camp Shanks or someplace like that. That- that yeah that’s- that's a familiar name. Interviewer: Right. Well we came back fast, so, we came back fast then I went to- to Shreveport, Louisiana. Interviewer: Okay. And they said, “Dudas, you stay here.” And I- I- I- I had called my parents down where I’m at and I'm still alive you know, and they said that, “you have to talk to a couple of psychiatrists, we told him your trauma.” Was true, I wake up at night screaming, yelling my guys, you know. (29.20) Interviewer: Okay. �Right and- and so they put me in at one end of the first day there, walked into the mess hall, and they waved me down, there was a man sitting there and a- a lady soldier taking notes and the last thing he said to me, “Dudas, if you ever stopped working, you're gonna die,” and I get down to the other end there's another psychiatrist, he said the same thing, “Dudas, if you stop working you're gonna die, you work 24 hours a day.” And- and- and- and I was scared you know the whole thing I didn’t know what… Interviewer: What did they mean by that? That I keep busy. Interviewer: Okay. Keep busy. Interviewer: So… And that's- that’s what I did. And give you an example I taught school, drove a school bus, and I had athletic teams, and I worked for Johnson Park, Kent County. Interviewer: Okay. Yeah. Interviewer: So, when you… In the park system. (30.18) Interviewer: So how long did you have to stay in Shreveport, was that just a short time or? A month. Interviewer: Okay. �They- they- they gave you small tests and that sort of thing and I had trouble with this ear, that's the one that about ten days I couldn't hear too well but I wasn't gonna go anywhere, I- I stayed with my group. Interviewer: Okay, now when did that happen to you? That happened on the way to Trevières. Interviewer: Okay so right at the beginning. Going to Brest. Interviewer: Okay to Brest, okay front of the trip here, alright so then once you got back home again what did you do? I- I got a big, my dad talked to somebody and they were building GI homes and- and I'm- and I’m a carpenter. Interviewer: Okay. I've been a carpenter ever since my grandfather let me build on the house when I was a little kid. And a good carpenter. (31.14) Interviewer: Okay now how long did you do that? And I had to finish high school. Interviewer: Okay. So, the high school was first right in here because I wanted to go to college. Interviewer: Okay. And I want to go to Notre Dame and play football, want to be an architect all because of my grandma and grandpa. Interviewer: Right. �And when the- the athletic director from Notre Dame saw me in the office there he said, “what happened to you?” When he saw me when I weighed 220 pounds as a combination end on the football team, that's- that's what I wanted do, play football for that and be with my hero Errol, I forgot the name while I was there I'll say Errol Brown All-American from Benton Harbor. Interviewer: Okay so the coach at Notre Dame had seen you before you went over? Yeah Athletic director yeah- yeah. Interviewer: Okay so they'd seen you and they thought you'd be a good recruit. Yeah, and they gave me a shot at that, I wanted to play pro football and go to the Bears. (32.18) Interviewer: Alright but now you come back and they look at you. Yeah. Interviewer: That's not gonna work. My mother hardly recognized me. Interviewer: Okay. Yeah. Interviewer: So, where did… Six foot and thin. Interviewer: Yeah, so, where did you go to college? Western. Interviewer: Okay. I went there, my lady friend, she was going there so we went there, and she was in the home ec department and I was in Destler's art department. Interviewer: Okay. �Four years there and I worked for, there, never stopped working, I didn't stop there and- and Superman and Dr. Weber, the history department, I had to go in there and check out, I was supposed to learn something in history and he said, “can you cut wood, trim steel, anything like that?” I said, “I sure can.” He said, “you're gonna work.” And my second week in college I had a solid job there, yeah. I worked the night shift till 9:00- 10:00 o'clock and I still had to study, yeah. (33.23) Interviewer: And so then when you graduated you went right to your high school job or the, you went to Grandville then? Yeah, I came right to Grandville and we sign our contracts a year before we graduated, we were going right there. Interviewer: Okay, and how long did you teach in Granville? 35 years. Interviewer: Alright. Yeah. Interviewer: Alright now when you think back to the time that you spent in the service, how do you think that affected you? Or what did you take out of it? Well, the two psychologists said, “you ever stop working you're gonna die,” and it certainly he was right, and he told the same thing to Harold, and a- a- a guy that you would appreciate, he was smooth as glass. Interviewer: Alright now do you think that you learned, yeah, do you think you- you learned anything from being in the army? Yes- yes you get a- a- a broader view of the population, yeah. �(34.19) Interviewer: Alright. Right. Interviewer: Alright well I just like to thank you for coming in and telling your story today. Right. Interviewer: Alright, that’ll do it. I haven't told this in a long time. Interviewer: Alright. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_DudasW1896V2 Title A name given to the resource Dudas, William (2 of 2, Interview transcript and video), 2015 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015-11-05 Description An account of the resource William Dudas was born in Sawyer, MI, just outside of Benton Harbor, in 1924. Dudas enlisted in the Army on July 29, 1943, shortly after the bombing of Pearl Harbor. He was selected for scout training and trained at Camp Walters in Texas. Dudas spent six months training in Cardiff, Wales, preparing for the D-Day invasion and landed on Omaha beach a day or two after the first wave, joining his unit on its way to Trevieres, France. Dudas' unit participated in the Battle at Hill 192 and advanced in a rapid push to Brest where he injured his leg during the advance and was sidelined for four weeks before rejoining his unit in Paris. His unit also participated in combat in the Hurtgen Forest, Battle of the Bulge, acrossing the Rhine River, and advancing into Czechoslovakia. After the war, he left the service and attended Western Michigan University to became a high school teacher. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dudas, William L. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Veterans History Project collection, RHC-27 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="https://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections & University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401. Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Language A language of the resource eng Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant World War II https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/69fb24f0879f5282ac877c659c7f449a.pdf 2df169dfee6fc6d7b9fed09216eba1bb PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Louis Dudeck 2 Vietnam War Interview Length: (01:35:38:00) [Note: This interview was conducted to supplement the original one done several years earlier, and to fill in gaps in the original interview and clarify some of the details of his service in Vietnam.] Pre-enlistment / Boot Camp (00:00:52:00)  Dudeck was born in 1943 in the small town of Bloomer, Wisconsin; the town is in the northwest part of Wisconsin, about one hundred miles to the south and east of Minneapolis-St. Paul (00:00:52:00)  While going through high school, girls and athletics were the primary things keeping Dudeck in high school; Dudeck ended up graduating with either a C- or a D+ grade average (00:01:28:00)  Dudeck graduated from high school in 1962 and during his senior year, he had a job operating a small pool hall (00:01:42:00) o Dudeck knew the man who had owned the pool hall before him and the other man wanted to get out of the business; Dudeck saw an opportunity to make a little extra money, so he took over (00:02:04:00) o His father set him up with a couple of pool tables plus a hot dog cooker, a pop machine (00:02:18:00)  While Dudeck was growing up, his father was in the candy business, working for the Curtiss Candy Company; Dudeck’s father would go to various areas and sell candy to local stores and restaurants (00:02:34:00) o It was Dudeck’s step-father who worked for the candy company; Dudeck’s biological father passed away in 1950 (00:02:56:00)  His biological father owned a small jewelry shop and when he died, Dudeck’s mother took over the business and sold it just before she re-married (00:03:03:00)  Dudeck’s brother was in the Marine Corps and Dudeck remembers his brother coming home and telling stories about the Cuban Missile Crisis (00:03:24:00) o Dudeck’s brother was stationed at Guantanamo Bay at the time and told stories of how the Cubans would come up to the perimeter of the base and harass the Marines inside (00:03:36:00) o According to Dudeck’s brother, the Marines scared the Cubans away by firing sling-shots at them (00:03:43:00)  Dudeck’s brother was Dudeck’s hero and Dudeck figured that if his brother could make it in the Marines, then so could he (00:03:51:00) o Dudeck was a sickly child growing up, suffering from several bouts of rheumatic fever and active tuberculosis; therefore, when Dudeck went to his parents to say he wanted to join the Marines, their first response was that the Marines were not going to want to take him (00:04:01:00) �     However, his parents’ doubt just made Dudeck more intent on joining the Marines (00:04:20:00) o One day, after a night of drinking, Dudeck ended up in the recruiting office in Eau Claire, Wisconsin and lo-and-behold, the Marines did take him (00:04:30:00) Dudeck ended up enlisting around August/September of 1963, when he was nineteen years old and a little over a year after he graduated (00:04:53:00) In order to get to boot camp, Dudeck took a flight out of Eau Claire; on the way to California, the airplane Dudeck was on had a little trouble over Arizona, with one of the engines catching fire (00:05:16:00) Dudeck was sent to San Diego, California for boot camp and from what he can remember, there was someone waiting for him when he arrived (00:05:42:00) o Dudeck remembers there being a couple of uniformed Marines collecting recruits from the flight, which had a fair number of recruits onboard (00:06:01:00) The uniformed Marines collected the recruits and held them before taking them to the MCRD (Marine Corps Recruit Depot); Dudeck and the other new recruits arrived at the MCRD around one o’clock in the morning (00:06:19:00) o In order to get to the depot, the recruits were placed on a large bus, where they had to sit three to a seat; Dudeck, who is not a small man himself, was squeezed between two black men (00:06:46:00)  Being from Wisconsin, Dudeck thinks those were the first two black men that he had ever seen (00:07:04:00) o The uniformed Marines did not act like drill instructors; their job was to act as “wranglers”, organizing all the recruits and making sure to get them onto the bus to the MCRD (00:07:21:00) o The shouting came “like a thunderclap” when the bus pulled into the MCRD; Dudeck believes that there were more than a couple of recruits who “messed themselves right then and there” (00:07:41:00) o Not everything was as “correct” back then as it is today; today, the drill instructors cannot touch the recruits, they have to act respectfully towards the recruits, they cannot use obscenities, etc. (00:08:08:00)  However, during Dudeck’s training, that sort of stuff was fair game for the drill instructors; if someone was not moving fast enough, he was propelled towards the exit, with a few expletives along the way (00:08:24:00) o Dudeck remembers getting off the bus, “flying” towards any set of the footprints on the ground outside, and trying to make sure that his feet were properly set at a 45° angle (00:08:49:00)  Because of his brother, Dudeck knew what was coming, which gave him a distinct advantage over the other recruits; Dudeck’s brother explained that there were things you do and things you don’t do (00:09:17:00)  For one thing, Dudeck did not want to stand out; you did not want to be the very best at doing something but you also did not want to be the very worst either (00:09:28:00) o However, because Dudeck was tall, he had a tough time not standing out; the drill instructors had a penchant for picking on the bigger recruits but that was fine with Dudeck because they could not break him (00:09:42:00) �    On a couple of occasions, Dudeck and the other big men would be invited for “consultations”; the other men would hear stuff moving around and then see the recruits just walking out (00:10:15:00)  Dudeck believes the “consultations” were merely a test in order to see what type of men the individual recruits were (00:10:57:00)  The purpose of the training was to build the recruits into the image and likeness of Marines; therefore, the instructors took what they had, removed all the peripherals from civilian life, and put in what they wanted the recruits to know (00:11:03:00) o Dudeck went through his initial physical while still in Wisconsin and only had a small physical done after he arrived in San Diego, before he and the other recruits went into the receiving barracks (00:11:32:00)  Dudeck withheld some of his medical history, specifically because he did not want to be sent home (00:11:52:00)  Dudeck and the other recruits also did aptitude testing, although not until four or five days after they had arrived at the MCRD (00:12:07:00) Dudeck had an advantage over some of the other recruits in that he had been an athlete in high school, although he had slacked off in the year after his graduation; prior to Dudeck enlisting, his brother told him to start running (00:12:25:00) o Dudeck weighed 187lbs when he went into boot camp and he weighed 187lbs when he finished boot camp (00:12:41:00) o Dudeck never really had any problem meeting the physical requirements for the training, such as running, calisthenics, hand-to-hand combat, etc.; on the other hand, a lot of the other recruits had trouble and several were dropped back a couple of weeks so they could work on their fitness (00:12:56:00)  The worst thing for any of the recruits was being set back a couple of weeks because that meant the recruit had to do all of the training over again (00:13:24:00)  All the overweight recruits were separated out and sent to the “fat boys platoon” (00:13:57:00) o Dudeck made it a point that he would never fall out during training; he might be dying but in the process of dying, he would trying to do one more push-up (00:14:14:00)  Some of the recruits did fall out and they suffered at the hands of the drill instructors, who were grueling (00:14:28:00) Dudeck remembers all of his drill instructors, including the staff sergeant who was the training company commander and a corporal who was only 5’3” and 120lbs but was the meanest of all the drill instructors (00:14:44:00) o Dudeck never had any hard feelings against the drill instructors because he knew what they were doing; he did not object, just went with the program, and tried to stay in the middle (00:15:30:00) Around 10% of Dudeck’s training company ended up washing out of the training entirely; these were often people with either little education or were from the larger cities and who saw themselves as tough (00:15:57:00) �  o Either way, those men had trouble adapting to life in the Marines and the drill instructors would run them right out of the training (00:16:21:00) o Dudeck does not know how the drill instructors determined whether someone would be able to turn around or whether they were simply not going to be able to make the grade (00:16:29:00)  There some tough, hotshot kids who turned into tough, hotshot Marines but there were others who were exactly the same who ended up washing out (00:16:41:00) During the training, one of Dudeck’s good friends turned out to be an American Indian who was also from Wisconsin (00:17:18:00) o Dudeck’s training company had several American Indians; 20% of the training company was African-American, 10% was Hispanic-American, a handful of Asian-Americans, and the remainder were poor, white kids (00:17:28:00) o One of the drill instructors was African-American and he dealt heavily with the African-American recruits; whenever one of the African-American recruits did not cut it, Dudeck believes that drill instructor took it personally (00:18:05:00)  One of the African-American recruits arrived at boot camp wearing a derby-style hat; when it became time for the recruits to ship all their civilian clothes home, for whatever reason, that recruit thought he would be able to keep the derby hat (00:18:44:00)  The first time there was an inspection, the drill instructors found the hat; the African-American drill instructor took the recruit aside, roughed him up, and the recruit was eventually pulled out of Dudeck’s training company (00:19:19:00)  The morning after the recruit was pulled out, there was a pile of candy bars outside the duty hut that the other recruits had been hiding (00:19:47:00) On a daily basis, the recruits would wake up at 5 a.m. to do PT (physical training) for roughly an hour, after which the recruits ran to breakfast; after breakfast, the recruits did more PT before going to some sort of class (00:20:22:00) o This was the schedule for the first couple of weeks, during which the recruits were asked about their history and had to do tests; it was all done so the recruits could get acclimated (00:20:51:00)  The recruits had longer to do these things back then because the boot camp was longer (00:21:15:00) o After the first couple of weeks, the recruits got into the “meat and potatoes” part of the training, such as: hand-to-hand combat, running the obstacles courses, classes on Marine Corps history, basic weapons instruction, etc. (00:21:45:00)  The recruits also did more testing in order to determine where they would go once they had finished training (00:22:25:00)  A lot of the training becomes a blur because everything was repetitive; nothing was ever done only once (00:23:02:00)  The recruits spent two weeks on the rifle range doing their first qualifications using the M-14 rifle (00:23:19:00) o By the time the recruits got into the heavy-duty training, Dudeck had established himself and was not used for demonstrations (00:24:24:00) �   Some of the other men who were having a little bit more trouble were used for the demonstrations (00:24:40:00) As the recruits approached graduation from boot camp, everything changed; there were little things that might seem insignificant to an outside but were major things for the recruits (00:25:10:00) o For example, when the recruits first arrived for boot camp and were issued uniforms, the uniforms hung on the men like rags and did not even look like a uniform; however men who had become Marines actually looked like Marines, with properly bloused trousers and shine boots (00:25:23:00)  About two weeks before graduation, the recruits were issued blousing garters, which was a big deal for the recruits; it meant the drill instructors were starting to think of them a bit differently (00:25:47:00)  In “blousing their trousers”, the recruits rolled their trouser legs up so the trouser legs did not lay right down on the in-step of the boot (00:26:30:00) o As well, the drill instructors started talking with the recruits was opposed to screaming at them (00:26:58:00) o By that point, the recruits were expected to know a little bit about what they were supposed to be doing (00:27:05:00)  For example, the close-order drill became a source of pride amongst the recruits in order to see which platoon would be the best (00:27:20:00) o The recruits did have a graduation ceremony when they finished boot camp, which was quite spectacular (00:28:19:00)  All of the MCRD was in attendance, as well as the recruits’ parents and high-ranking officers (00:28:24:00)  The feeling that Dudeck had during the ceremony was something he never felt before in his life or has felt since, save for maybe the birth of his firstborn child (00:28:59:00) At the end boot camp, Dudeck knew that he was going to be a standard Marines grunt, as were all the other recruits in his training company; Dudeck cannot remember anyone not become a grunt at that time (00:29:14:00) Infantry Training Regiment / Camp Pendleton (00:29:27:00)  After finishing boot camp, Dudeck was sent to join an Individual Training Regiment (ITR) at Camp Pendleton, California (00:29:27:00) o Once he joined the ITR, Dudeck was assigned to a weapons platoon; specifically, he was assigned to work with an M-60 machine gun (00:29:33:00) o The ITR lasted four weeks and was extremely different than boot camp; the men were given a little bit of individual freedom and did not have to constantly look around to see who was watching them (00:29:42:00) o The ITR training was much more detailed in terms of focusing on basic tactics, how to properly use the weapons, etc. (00:30:07:00)  At that point, the trainers were trying to sort out which Marines could do what (00:30:20:00)  When Dudeck first joined the ITR, he was assigned the job of being an ammo carrier for an M-60 machine gun; apart from his �    own rifle and ammunition, Dudeck carried several cans worth of ammunition for the machine gun (00:30:39:00)  As the men moved up and down the mountains in the base, the trainers were able to establish a pecking order of who could handle carrying the heavy M-60 and who could not (00:30:51:00) o Dudeck quickly found himself carrying around the M-60 as opposed to the ammunition (00:31:26:00)  While in ITR, the Marines were able to “play with all the toys”, training with everything from flamethrowers and 3.5in rockets to the M-60 and the .50 caliber M2 (Ma Deuce) machine gun (00:31:48:00)  The men were even able to fire the old-fashioned water-cooled and air-cooled .30 caliber machine guns (00:32:10:00)  The men also trained with 81mm and 60mm mortars as well as older M1 Garand rifles (00:32:23:00)  At that point, it was still not exactly clear who would be doing what, so the men just trained with everything (00:32:42:00) The four weeks of ITR went really fast; there was so much that the Marines had to learn before they were assigned to the FMF (Fleet Marine Force) (00:32:55:00) Dudeck remembers receiving his first leave home after finishing ITR and he remembers watching the funeral of President Kennedy on the television at his home (00:33:34:00) Dudeck had a thirty-day leave and he remembers begin ordered back to join a company, Charlie 1/5 [C Company, 1st Battalion, 5th Marine Regiment], at Camp Pendleton (00:34:03:00) o When he arrived at the unit, the commanders started hollering that all the men were to fall out with their uniforms and weapons; the men thought that they might be going to war with Russia if something happened as a result of President Kennedy’s assassination (00:34:31:00) o Although there were some squad and platoon leaders already in the unit, for the most part, all the men in the company were coming back from their leaves following the end of ITR en masse (00:35:19:00) o Overall, it was a spooky time because the men did not know if the Russians were going to try something (00:35:36:00) o The heightened state-of-alert lasted for a couple of days to a week before the men started doing things that they would normally do at the company-level, which was mostly training in anticipation of deployment somewhere (00:35:57:00) In Dudeck’s opinion, he and the other Marines were completely unprepared for a deployment to Vietnam (00:36:34:00) o The Marines were meant to be a shock force intended to take ground while fighting on a fairly conventional battlefield; the Marines would take hills or territory and leave the area to someone else before moving on (00:36:43:00) o However, up until that point, the men had not received any sort of jungle training; although they did receive some before deploying to Vietnam, the men could have received more (00:37:10:00) o Most of the training the men had received was conventional, such as fire-andmaneuver (00:37:39:00) �   Nevertheless, a lot of the training was cool and fun to do; although Dudeck made light of the training, it was still serious business (00:37:53:00)  The men did do amphibious training, which was one of the most fun things they did (00:38:28:00)  The men did the training right on the beaches of San Diego, mixed right in with the sunbathers and beach-goers  (00:38:42:00)  Prior to the “landing”, the men would be taken out in large landing crafts and they would practice climbing over the sides of the crafts and into small rubber boats (00:39:08:00) o Over times, the landing crafts would be driving straight onto the beach (00:39:17:00) o The water was very, very cold and because the surf was high, a lot of the times, some of the men would end up in the water (00:39:21:00)  The amphibious training ended up being nothing the men ever used in Vietnam apart from when they arrived and went ashore for the first time (00:39:36:00)  The men also trained with amphibious vehicles, AMTRACs, although nobody really liked them, partially because the vehicles had a history of sinking out from under the men and because they were not very good in the heavy surf (00:39:51:00) o They could pack fifteen to twenty men in each of the vehicles and it was usually better than walking; however, even when the vehicles were used in Vietnam, Dudeck preferred walking over having to ride in one (00:40:37:00) It seemed like most all of the men in Dudeck’s company had a girlfriend in California and whenever the men had time off, they would go visit their girlfriend and go to different places (00:41:23:00) o The men also made frequent trips into nearby Mexico, with Tijuana being one of the stopping off points (00:41:53:00)  One time, all of Dudeck’s squad had gone to Mexico and when they returned, they tried to check out their machine guns and go back, “because they had a little job to take care of” (00:41:57:00)  Having taking Spanish in high school, Dudeck tried to use it once when a couple of the men were locked up in jail; finally, a Mexican cop told Dudeck to shut his mouth and leave (00:42:24:00) The men did a lot of training in the mountains, such as cold weather training; the men would do operations all day and into the night and by the time they woke up the next morning, the water in their canteens had frozen (00:43:13:00) o The men also did a lot of training in the Cleveland National Forest, which largely consisted of scrub brush (00:43:50:00)  At one point, the men were dropped off at a location with a couple of baked potatoes, a bag of rice, a couple of a canteens of water and a large supply of halizone tablets and told to survive for ten days (00:44:06:00) �   The men had to find their own sources of food apart from the baked potatoes and rice (00:44:26:00)  During the exercise, the men operated in small, squad-sized groups and each group had someone along with them that knew how to survive in the area (00:44:35:00)  At the end of the 10-day operation, the men were supposed to have a mock battle against a company of Recon Marines (00:45:15:00)  After Dudeck’s company had gathered back together, they had to scout the hill that the Recon Marines had occupied (00:45:36:00)  As they scouted the hill, Dudeck remembers looking out from behind a rock and seeing the Recon Marine commander, a large Native American, standing on a rock with his arms crossed and occasionally scanning with his binoculars (00:46:04:00)  Dudeck and the other men retreated back down the hill and snuck around to the other side, where a re-supply truck was coming up a road to the top of the hill (00:46:58:00) o The men ambushed and took control of the truck and had Dudeck’s squad climb in the back (00:47:12:00)  The men drove the truck right up to the Recon Marine’s CP, captured the company’s First Sergeant, then commander, placed both men inside the truck, and drove away (00:47:22:00) o The men also trained with armor forces, riding on tanks at the Marine Corps in Twenty-nine Palms, California (00:47:59:00)  The training was serious because it involved coordinating between the infantry forces and the armored forces, something that the men would use once they were in Vietnam (00:48:13:00)  At one point, Dudeck remembers sitting on the top of a hill with his machine gun dug in and watching practice F-4 bombing runs in the area below him (00:48:37:00)  At one point, one of the F-4’s flew directly over the hill where Dudeck and the rest of the men were sitting; the aircraft was so low that the exhaust blew Dudeck’s helmet off (00:49:02:00) When he first joined the Marines, Dudeck’s enlistment was supposed to last for four years, from 1963 to 1967 (00:49:45:00) During their training, Dudeck and the other men did not know anything about what was happening in Vietnam (00:50:46:00) o One day, all the men were called together, the company commander came out, said that there was a situation happening in Vietnam, and the Marines needed to be a part of it, even if it was “not much of a war” (00:50:50:00)  Although the commander asked for volunteers to go to Vietnam, Dudeck suspects that it would not have mattered one way or the other what the men said, they were going regardless (00:51:33:00)  Dudeck thought it was kind of odd that the commander asked if the men would “like to go to a war” (00:51:44:00) �o Following the company commander’s pep talk, Dudeck cannot remember the exact time frame until he officially deployed, although he suspects it was about a month or two (00:51:57:00)  At one point, the men were officially assigned their weapons, which turned out to be the same weapons that they had been training with in California (00:52:17:00)  The weapons had already been used by countless other Marines, so they were not in the very best of shape; however, the men made do with what they had (00:52:33:00) Deployment (00:52:47:00)  One day, the men found themselves on a dock in San Diego, boarding a ship with their entire battalion (00:52:47:00) o When the battalion first boarded the ship, it was 1st Battalion, 5th Marines; however, somewhere along the way, the designation changed and the battalion became 2nd Battalion, 9th Marines (00:53:11:00) o Before leaving San Diego, Dudeck does not recall the men ever receiving any sort of orientation for Vietnam; the “real world” opened up for the men once the ship reached Okinawa (00:54:15:00) o After leaving San Diego, the ship encountered a storm on the very first day out; Dudeck does not remember exactly how big the seas were but the boat was pitching back and forth (00:54:36:00) o The storm lasted almost the entire voyage to Hawaii and almost all the men were sick; Dudeck was one of maybe one hundred other men who did not get sick but he still did not feel very good (00:54:49:00)  The Navy personnel onboard the ship picked on the Marines for being seasick (00:55:06:00) o On the other hand, once the ship left Hawaii and sailed to Okinawa, the seas were calm and it was pleasant (00:55:40:00)  The ship stopped in Hawaii overnight and each of the men were given twenty-four hours of liberty leave (00:55:50:00)  Once the ship arrived at Okinawa, Dudeck and the other men were in an environment that was fairly close to the terrain they would later encounter in Vietnam (00:56:33:00) o It was on Okinawa where the men learned how to rappel and how to handle themselves in the water (00:56:43:00)  The men were taken out a couple of miles into the ocean, dumped in the water and told they had to swim back to the shore (00:56:53:00)  Although some of the men used lifejackets, Dudeck does not ever recall being assigned one (00:57:23:00)  The waters surround Okinawa were treacherous in terms of the fauna that lived in them; in particular, sea snakes (00:57:33:00) o Dudeck remembers looking down into the water and seeing seven to eight foot-long snakes swimming four feet below him; the snakes were really good incentive for the men to keep moving (00:57:48:00) �  The men did the rappelling off cliffs, as well as free-climbing in order to simulate attacks on enemy positions (00:58:26:00)  In order to get back down from the top of the cliffs, the men would rappel (00:58:52:00)  The men were expected to keep quiet during the training and one man took that to the extreme (00:59:02:00) o Whenever the men would rappel down, they would wear heavy-duty gloves (00:59:12:00) o However, in the case of the one soldier, he put on his gloves, slung his rifle over his shoulder, grabbed at the rope and began to rappel; the only problem was that he missed grabbing the rope (00:59:27:00) o The man fell all the way to the bottom of the cliff without saying a word; the only thing the other men heard was the clatter of his rifle as it hit the ground (00:59:33:00) o Although everyone else thought the man was dead, he was not even injured, apart from a handful of scrapes and bumps (00:59:45:00)  Other times, the men had to simulate carrying wounded men; however, doing a quick rappel with someone on their backs was not something the men really want to do (01:00:28:00) o Being one of the bigger guys in the company, Dudeck was forced to carry the heavier men (01:00:42:00) o Dudeck and the other Marines spent about a month to a month-and-a-half training on Okinawa (01:01:22:00) o There were pretty intense jungles on the island and the men spent a large portion of time training in them (01:01:32:00)  The training largely focused on maneuvering in the jungle and a lot of DOs and DON’Ts, such as effectively using camouflage (01:01:43:00)  There was not really any training for the more sophisticated aspects of jungle warfare that the men would later use in Vietnam; most of that information was learned through trial-and-error once the men were in Vietnam (01:02:08:00)  The training was meant as a heads-up to what the men might experience in Vietnam, such as booby-traps and how to use different materials to make their own traps (01:02:22:00)  Although the training was a really eye-opener, it was nothing compared to actually being in the bush (01:02:41:00) o Dudeck does not believe anyone who was training the men had been to Vietnam; although some senior NCOs had served on Okinawa during World War II, their level of understanding about what the men would be facing in Vietnam was only slightly more than the understanding the men had (01:02:52:00) To actually get from Okinawa to Vietnam, the men were loaded onto another ship; however, unlike the voyage(s) to Okinawa, the men did PT (physical training) every day, had classes about the training on Okinawa, etc. (01:03:41:00) � Once the men landed in Vietnam near Da Nang and began marching overland to the Da Nang Airport, Dudeck picked up some sort of bug and had a high fever (01:05:02:00) o Dudeck went through the landing and was scared to death; it was a real eye opener when the men were issued live ammunition and Dudeck was strapping ammunition to his chest and carrying the M-60 ashore (01:05:11:00)  The men did not know what to expect when they landed, so they had their weapons locked and loaded; naturally, it came as a shock when they landed on the beach and little old Vietnamese ladies were there selling beers and sodas (01:05:31:00) o By the time the men had marched to the airport, Dudeck had a raging headache, so he was sent to the medical battalion, which was about a mile up the road, and told to come back later (01:05:43:00)  Dudeck had a temperature of 104° and a couple of other issues; Dudeck does not remember how long he was at the medical battalion but he eventually ended up back with his unit, good as gold (01:06:03:00) o Initially, Dudeck’s unit was assigned to performing guard duty around the perimeter of the airport; although the men had been led to believe that they might encounter hoards of hostile Vietnamese at any moment, it did not quite turn out that way (01:06:27:00)  Every so often at night, the men would hear a shot or two go off but most of the times, it was another grunt who had gotten spooked (01:06:46:00)  During the entire time his unit was doing guard duty, Dudeck never once needed to fire his weapon and he does not know anyone who did fire their weapon (01:06:56:00) o Being in the heavy weapons platoon, Dudeck was normally assigned to one of the other platoons in the company; the entire platoon would be split up to the different platoons and it was not uncommon for Dudeck and the other men in the platoon to spend different days with different platoons (01:07:14:00)  Dudeck never really had an opportunity to see any of the other units stationed at the airport, although he knew there were a couple of South Vietnamese units stationed there (01:07:32:00) o At that time, Dudeck did not pay much attention to the Vietnamese civilians, although he is sure they were around; he remembers seeing small hooches where the civilians lived (01:07:57:00)  Dudeck suspects that because his unit was new in-country, the commanders did not allow the Vietnamese civilians to get too close, for fear that the civilians would spook the men, causing them to do something they might regret (01:08:14:00)  Once the unit was established in-country, then the Vietnamese civilians, especially the children, began to come around; the adults tended to stay away, wanting nothing to do with the men (01:08:33:00)  Some of the children were a lot smarter than the men gave them credit for because on in some cases, the children would mark the Marines’ locations on home-made maps (01:08:53:00) o Although Dudeck is sure that his company eventually began going out on patrols while still at the airport, he does not remember them (01:09:34:00) �  According to Dudeck, would make sense that they would do security sweeps around the perimeter instead of just sitting in a hole and waiting for something to happen (01:09:47:00)  Dudeck does not think that his unit suffered any casualties while stationed at the airport; it was not until they left the airport that things started to change (01:09:55:00) After Dudeck’s company had been in-country for quite some time, they received notification that the unit was being split up; however, the men did not know if that meant the entire company or platoons or squads (01:10:28:00) o Nevertheless, one days, the men were headed onto trucks and told they would be joining new units, although some would be staying with the original battalion, 2nd Battalion, 9th Marines (01:11:09:00) o Dudeck himself ended up be transferred to 3rd Battalion, 3rd Marines; like most of the other men, Dudeck believed the transfer was so that Dudeck was a replacement for another wounded Marine (01:11:18:00)  During the transfer, Dudeck’s original gun team from the company was broken up (01:12:22:00)  As well, when Dudeck thought about the transfer some years later, part of the reason may have been that the original company commander had not been in good standing as was relieved of command (01:12:28:00)  When Dudeck joined his new unit, there were some other men from his previous company joining as well (01:13:52:00) o Dudeck knew that his new unit was short-handed personnel wise because a standard M-60 gun team was supposed to be four men but when he joined his new team, he made it a three-man team (01:14:08:00)  The gun team already had a gunner when Dudeck arrived, so he became the team leader (01:14:25:00)  Dudeck vaguely knew the gunner in the new team; they had either crossed paths or briefly worked together prior to then (01:14:54:00) o When Dudeck transferred to the new company, he had to re-qualify with the rifle in order to establish himself within the new company (01:15:28:00)  Dudeck did not think it would be much of a problem because he had already qualified expert on a couple of occasions (01:15:39:00)  Before the actual qualification, Dudeck and the other Marines who had transferred were given one session at the rifle range to zero-in their rifles and make sure the rifles were firing accurately (01:15:58:00)  During the qualification, Dudeck had almost a perfect score through the 200yd, 300yd, standing, sitting, and kneeling; however, when he got to the 500yd, something went screwy (01:16:12:00)  As best Dudeck can figure, the targets were not numbered and he was shooting at the wrong target; Dudeck ended up never hitting his 500yd target once (01:10:08:00)  Luckily, Dudeck had enough points from the previous positions that he was still able to qualify; Dudeck does not know what would have happened had he not qualified (01:16:52:00) �Miscellaneous recollections (01:17:46:00)  Dudeck and the other Marines did not really understand the purpose behind their operations; the men’s philosophy was had they taken the entire 3rd Marine Division and placed them on a line, the division would have been in Hanoi in two weeks (01:17:46:00) o Some of the things that the men were assigned to do seemed crazy, such as having to go out in small groups (01:18:11:00) o When the Marines first arrived, they were supposed to be winning the hearts and minds of the Vietnamese; later on, the missions switched from winning the hearts and minds to search and destroy (01:18:19:00) o It was one thing to go in and try to be friendly with the local population, especially when the local population often did not want to have anything to do with the Marines (01:18:48:00)  About the only thing that the Marines did that Dudeck saw that was of any particular value at the time was that the Marine forces were able to bring in Navy corpsmen to look after the children and treat any wounds or injuries (01:18:58:00)  However, Dudeck suspects that half of the time, the corpsmen were treating wounded Viet Cong soldiers (01:19:10:00) o The Marine philosophy was to go in, take ground, and move on, with some other unit coming in behind the Marines to hold the ground (01:19:31:00) o Once the hearts and minds efforts began to fail, that was when the Marines began to go out in small groups in efforts to actively engage the enemy forces before calling in larger units (01:19:44:00)  However, the enemy units often never stood their ground long enough for a larger force to be called in, so the Marine units would be shot at for a little bit before going somewhere else (01:20:08:00) o Most of the operations did not make sense to Dudeck and the other Marines because it was not the types of operations that they had been trained to do, especially in California (01:20:23:00) o When the small teams would be moving around in the field, they would not want to be bogged down in extended firefights (01:20:43:00)  Normally, the teams would establish contact or, if they were lucky, spot the enemy before contact was established and would then step back to call in a mortar strike or air support (01:20:53:00)  As time went on, the men became a lot smart in doing the operations; their camouflage techniques became better, they ways they moved in the jungle became better, etc. (01:21:21:00)  Although there were individuals who had morale problems within the unit, as a whole, there were not morale problems for the unit (01:22:07:00) o Almost all of the men were very professional; everyone within the unit knew that they had a job to do (01:22:16:00) �     Even though Dudeck’s company(s) did take a lot of casualties during his tour, the casualties were spread out, often with one or two men being wounded or killed at any given time (01:22:24:00) o Just before he was wounded himself, Dudeck got the feeling it was inevitable that he would be hit; during his entire tour, Dudeck went through three different gun teams and it was only a matter of time until it was Dudeck’s turn (01:22:48:00) o As the casualties numbers went up, the gun teams just got smaller and smaller; at one point, Dudeck was a squad leader, which consisted of two gun teams, and the whole squad consisted of six soldiers, including Dudeck (01:23:14:00)  One good thing about Marine training was that it did not make any difference if someone was the ammo carrier or the gunner, or the squad leader; everyone could switch out and take over the job of someone else and it happened a lot (01:23:46:00)  A squad leader might be wounded or killed and all of a sudden, a PFC (Private, First Class) was the new squad leader (01:24:10:00) o Dudeck and the other Marines tried their best to make sure any replacements knew what was going on; however, there was some much that they needed to teach the replacements before taking them into the field that the information became a little overwhelming (01:24:46:00)  At one point, Dudeck sent one of his replacements out to get a canteen of water and the replacement end up being killed by a sabotaged 105mm artillery round (01:25:15:00)  The round had been placed on a trail that the replacement was walking on, which was something the more veteran soldiers avoided doing (01:26:18:00) Usually, when the men had to move through the partially flooded rice paddies, the ground was made up of a thick muck, although how thick the muck was usually depended on the time of year and how long the paddies had been flooded (01:27:11:00) o Sometimes, the men moved through paddies that were completely dry while other times, the paddies had just been flooded (01:27:27:00) Racial tensions within the unit were not much of an issue; through his own stupidity, Dudeck got himself into a problem one time (01:28:10:00) o Although it was a racial problem, at the time, Dudeck did not realize that it was a racial problem because he did not have any experience with African-Americans prior to joining the Marines (01:28:19:00)  By the time the Marines deployed to Vietnam, Dudeck was one of the elder statesman of the unit, at twenty-one years old (01:28:38:00) Along with there not being any racial tension, Dudeck never once heard of anyone ever using drugs in Vietnam (01:28:57:00) Part of the lack of racial tension or drug use came from the high moral amongst the men; they firmly believed that they were going to kick ass and take names (01:29:17:00) o However, over time, the men realized that they were not expected to win, partially because the commanders were not allowing them to win; the men were not allowed to do the things they needed to do in order to win (01:29:38:00)  Dudeck remembers officers coming into the field and telling the men they were not to fire their weapons until they were fired upon (01:29:55:00) �  However, if the men were walking in jungle where they could only see five or six feet in front of themselves and they waited for the enemy to take the first shot, they were dead meat (01:30:04:00)  Whenever Dudeck carried the M-60, it was locked and loaded, with the safety off (01:30:22:00) o The rule of the bush was always “the first guy to shoot was the one who lives” (01:30:26:00)  During the times the men were at a camp and would be going into the field for a patrol, there would be an NCO waiting to check each of the men’s rifle chambers to make sure there was not a round in the chamber (01:30:40:00) o That lasted until the men were about 10yds beyond the perimeter, when they all chambered a round; all the men knew that leaving the wire without a round in the chamber was just asking for trouble (01:30:57:00) During the six plus months he was in Vietnam, Dudeck only saw a city, Da Nang, once and the only reason he went there for a day was to act as a guard a truck; Dudeck had time to have one beer at the bar before having to head back (01:32:30:00) o Other than that one trip into Da Nang, Dudeck was in the field for the length of his time in-country (01:33:07:00) o Although they would try to fly food out to men in the field, such as a full Thanksgiving meal, it did not always turn out well; for example, six hours after the Thanksgiving meal, all the soldiers were sick (01:33:12:00)  Another time, the Marines tried flying fresh-baked bread out to the men on board helicopters along with big vats of peanut butter and jelly (01:33:49:00)  However, when the men broke the bread open, the inside was green from mold, although the men ate it anyway (01:34:07:00)  Other than those handful of times, the men mostly ate C-Rations, apart from the rare occasions when they made it into a base camp, when they were able to have a hot meal, which was not always good but was at least better than C-Rations (01:34:26:00)  From time to time, the men did receive a “beer ration” while in the field; although they were technically supposed to receive two beers or two sodas a day, they received that once every couple of weeks (01:34:47:00)  They would only fly the ration out if the unit was going to be in an area for several days (01:35:09:00) � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/686315dadb39ba595d91769eac7cd9f6.mp4 58ba62881fd59342018417de6eefb4bc Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Dudeck, Louis (Interview outline and video, 2 of 2), 2007 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dudeck, Louis Description An account of the resource Louis Dudeck was born in 1943 in Bloomer, Wisconsin, and enlisted in the Marine Corps in 1963. He trained at San Diego and Camp Pendleton, and served with the 1st Battalion, 5th Marine Regiment at Pendleton until he unit was deployed to Vietnam in 1965 and redesignated as the 2nd Battalion, 9th Marines. His unit did jungle training on Okinawa, and then landed at Da Nang, the first ground combat unit in Vietnam. His battalion initially guarded the Da Nang airport, then went to Chu Lai, and Dudeck was then transferred to the 3rd Battalion, 3rd Marines, with whom he participated in Operation Harvest Moon in December, where his company took heavy losses. A few weeks later, while operating in the A Shau Valley, Dudeck was badly wounded and sent first to Japan and then to the US to recuperate, and was discharged for medical reasons in 1966. [Note: the first interview includes most of his combat history, and the second fills in some gaps in the early part of the story and clarifies several aspects of his Vietnam service.] Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings United States. Marine Corps Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2007-05-30 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DudeckL0256V2 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/cf83bfff0d0f8d2948ea37e3588ec18e.mp4 257ce6c09e746e0a6cf379f3f4179d06 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3f62a3add2e8fedadfc662bae2b70f2e.pdf 2df169dfee6fc6d7b9fed09216eba1bb PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Louis Dudeck 2 Vietnam War Interview Length: (01:35:38:00) [Note: This interview was conducted to supplement the original one done several years earlier, and to fill in gaps in the original interview and clarify some of the details of his service in Vietnam.] Pre-enlistment / Boot Camp (00:00:52:00)  Dudeck was born in 1943 in the small town of Bloomer, Wisconsin; the town is in the northwest part of Wisconsin, about one hundred miles to the south and east of Minneapolis-St. Paul (00:00:52:00)  While going through high school, girls and athletics were the primary things keeping Dudeck in high school; Dudeck ended up graduating with either a C- or a D+ grade average (00:01:28:00)  Dudeck graduated from high school in 1962 and during his senior year, he had a job operating a small pool hall (00:01:42:00) o Dudeck knew the man who had owned the pool hall before him and the other man wanted to get out of the business; Dudeck saw an opportunity to make a little extra money, so he took over (00:02:04:00) o His father set him up with a couple of pool tables plus a hot dog cooker, a pop machine (00:02:18:00)  While Dudeck was growing up, his father was in the candy business, working for the Curtiss Candy Company; Dudeck’s father would go to various areas and sell candy to local stores and restaurants (00:02:34:00) o It was Dudeck’s step-father who worked for the candy company; Dudeck’s biological father passed away in 1950 (00:02:56:00)  His biological father owned a small jewelry shop and when he died, Dudeck’s mother took over the business and sold it just before she re-married (00:03:03:00)  Dudeck’s brother was in the Marine Corps and Dudeck remembers his brother coming home and telling stories about the Cuban Missile Crisis (00:03:24:00) o Dudeck’s brother was stationed at Guantanamo Bay at the time and told stories of how the Cubans would come up to the perimeter of the base and harass the Marines inside (00:03:36:00) o According to Dudeck’s brother, the Marines scared the Cubans away by firing sling-shots at them (00:03:43:00)  Dudeck’s brother was Dudeck’s hero and Dudeck figured that if his brother could make it in the Marines, then so could he (00:03:51:00) o Dudeck was a sickly child growing up, suffering from several bouts of rheumatic fever and active tuberculosis; therefore, when Dudeck went to his parents to say he wanted to join the Marines, their first response was that the Marines were not going to want to take him (00:04:01:00) �     However, his parents’ doubt just made Dudeck more intent on joining the Marines (00:04:20:00) o One day, after a night of drinking, Dudeck ended up in the recruiting office in Eau Claire, Wisconsin and lo-and-behold, the Marines did take him (00:04:30:00) Dudeck ended up enlisting around August/September of 1963, when he was nineteen years old and a little over a year after he graduated (00:04:53:00) In order to get to boot camp, Dudeck took a flight out of Eau Claire; on the way to California, the airplane Dudeck was on had a little trouble over Arizona, with one of the engines catching fire (00:05:16:00) Dudeck was sent to San Diego, California for boot camp and from what he can remember, there was someone waiting for him when he arrived (00:05:42:00) o Dudeck remembers there being a couple of uniformed Marines collecting recruits from the flight, which had a fair number of recruits onboard (00:06:01:00) The uniformed Marines collected the recruits and held them before taking them to the MCRD (Marine Corps Recruit Depot); Dudeck and the other new recruits arrived at the MCRD around one o’clock in the morning (00:06:19:00) o In order to get to the depot, the recruits were placed on a large bus, where they had to sit three to a seat; Dudeck, who is not a small man himself, was squeezed between two black men (00:06:46:00)  Being from Wisconsin, Dudeck thinks those were the first two black men that he had ever seen (00:07:04:00) o The uniformed Marines did not act like drill instructors; their job was to act as “wranglers”, organizing all the recruits and making sure to get them onto the bus to the MCRD (00:07:21:00) o The shouting came “like a thunderclap” when the bus pulled into the MCRD; Dudeck believes that there were more than a couple of recruits who “messed themselves right then and there” (00:07:41:00) o Not everything was as “correct” back then as it is today; today, the drill instructors cannot touch the recruits, they have to act respectfully towards the recruits, they cannot use obscenities, etc. (00:08:08:00)  However, during Dudeck’s training, that sort of stuff was fair game for the drill instructors; if someone was not moving fast enough, he was propelled towards the exit, with a few expletives along the way (00:08:24:00) o Dudeck remembers getting off the bus, “flying” towards any set of the footprints on the ground outside, and trying to make sure that his feet were properly set at a 45° angle (00:08:49:00)  Because of his brother, Dudeck knew what was coming, which gave him a distinct advantage over the other recruits; Dudeck’s brother explained that there were things you do and things you don’t do (00:09:17:00)  For one thing, Dudeck did not want to stand out; you did not want to be the very best at doing something but you also did not want to be the very worst either (00:09:28:00) o However, because Dudeck was tall, he had a tough time not standing out; the drill instructors had a penchant for picking on the bigger recruits but that was fine with Dudeck because they could not break him (00:09:42:00) �    On a couple of occasions, Dudeck and the other big men would be invited for “consultations”; the other men would hear stuff moving around and then see the recruits just walking out (00:10:15:00)  Dudeck believes the “consultations” were merely a test in order to see what type of men the individual recruits were (00:10:57:00)  The purpose of the training was to build the recruits into the image and likeness of Marines; therefore, the instructors took what they had, removed all the peripherals from civilian life, and put in what they wanted the recruits to know (00:11:03:00) o Dudeck went through his initial physical while still in Wisconsin and only had a small physical done after he arrived in San Diego, before he and the other recruits went into the receiving barracks (00:11:32:00)  Dudeck withheld some of his medical history, specifically because he did not want to be sent home (00:11:52:00)  Dudeck and the other recruits also did aptitude testing, although not until four or five days after they had arrived at the MCRD (00:12:07:00) Dudeck had an advantage over some of the other recruits in that he had been an athlete in high school, although he had slacked off in the year after his graduation; prior to Dudeck enlisting, his brother told him to start running (00:12:25:00) o Dudeck weighed 187lbs when he went into boot camp and he weighed 187lbs when he finished boot camp (00:12:41:00) o Dudeck never really had any problem meeting the physical requirements for the training, such as running, calisthenics, hand-to-hand combat, etc.; on the other hand, a lot of the other recruits had trouble and several were dropped back a couple of weeks so they could work on their fitness (00:12:56:00)  The worst thing for any of the recruits was being set back a couple of weeks because that meant the recruit had to do all of the training over again (00:13:24:00)  All the overweight recruits were separated out and sent to the “fat boys platoon” (00:13:57:00) o Dudeck made it a point that he would never fall out during training; he might be dying but in the process of dying, he would trying to do one more push-up (00:14:14:00)  Some of the recruits did fall out and they suffered at the hands of the drill instructors, who were grueling (00:14:28:00) Dudeck remembers all of his drill instructors, including the staff sergeant who was the training company commander and a corporal who was only 5’3” and 120lbs but was the meanest of all the drill instructors (00:14:44:00) o Dudeck never had any hard feelings against the drill instructors because he knew what they were doing; he did not object, just went with the program, and tried to stay in the middle (00:15:30:00) Around 10% of Dudeck’s training company ended up washing out of the training entirely; these were often people with either little education or were from the larger cities and who saw themselves as tough (00:15:57:00) �  o Either way, those men had trouble adapting to life in the Marines and the drill instructors would run them right out of the training (00:16:21:00) o Dudeck does not know how the drill instructors determined whether someone would be able to turn around or whether they were simply not going to be able to make the grade (00:16:29:00)  There some tough, hotshot kids who turned into tough, hotshot Marines but there were others who were exactly the same who ended up washing out (00:16:41:00) During the training, one of Dudeck’s good friends turned out to be an American Indian who was also from Wisconsin (00:17:18:00) o Dudeck’s training company had several American Indians; 20% of the training company was African-American, 10% was Hispanic-American, a handful of Asian-Americans, and the remainder were poor, white kids (00:17:28:00) o One of the drill instructors was African-American and he dealt heavily with the African-American recruits; whenever one of the African-American recruits did not cut it, Dudeck believes that drill instructor took it personally (00:18:05:00)  One of the African-American recruits arrived at boot camp wearing a derby-style hat; when it became time for the recruits to ship all their civilian clothes home, for whatever reason, that recruit thought he would be able to keep the derby hat (00:18:44:00)  The first time there was an inspection, the drill instructors found the hat; the African-American drill instructor took the recruit aside, roughed him up, and the recruit was eventually pulled out of Dudeck’s training company (00:19:19:00)  The morning after the recruit was pulled out, there was a pile of candy bars outside the duty hut that the other recruits had been hiding (00:19:47:00) On a daily basis, the recruits would wake up at 5 a.m. to do PT (physical training) for roughly an hour, after which the recruits ran to breakfast; after breakfast, the recruits did more PT before going to some sort of class (00:20:22:00) o This was the schedule for the first couple of weeks, during which the recruits were asked about their history and had to do tests; it was all done so the recruits could get acclimated (00:20:51:00)  The recruits had longer to do these things back then because the boot camp was longer (00:21:15:00) o After the first couple of weeks, the recruits got into the “meat and potatoes” part of the training, such as: hand-to-hand combat, running the obstacles courses, classes on Marine Corps history, basic weapons instruction, etc. (00:21:45:00)  The recruits also did more testing in order to determine where they would go once they had finished training (00:22:25:00)  A lot of the training becomes a blur because everything was repetitive; nothing was ever done only once (00:23:02:00)  The recruits spent two weeks on the rifle range doing their first qualifications using the M-14 rifle (00:23:19:00) o By the time the recruits got into the heavy-duty training, Dudeck had established himself and was not used for demonstrations (00:24:24:00) �   Some of the other men who were having a little bit more trouble were used for the demonstrations (00:24:40:00) As the recruits approached graduation from boot camp, everything changed; there were little things that might seem insignificant to an outside but were major things for the recruits (00:25:10:00) o For example, when the recruits first arrived for boot camp and were issued uniforms, the uniforms hung on the men like rags and did not even look like a uniform; however men who had become Marines actually looked like Marines, with properly bloused trousers and shine boots (00:25:23:00)  About two weeks before graduation, the recruits were issued blousing garters, which was a big deal for the recruits; it meant the drill instructors were starting to think of them a bit differently (00:25:47:00)  In “blousing their trousers”, the recruits rolled their trouser legs up so the trouser legs did not lay right down on the in-step of the boot (00:26:30:00) o As well, the drill instructors started talking with the recruits was opposed to screaming at them (00:26:58:00) o By that point, the recruits were expected to know a little bit about what they were supposed to be doing (00:27:05:00)  For example, the close-order drill became a source of pride amongst the recruits in order to see which platoon would be the best (00:27:20:00) o The recruits did have a graduation ceremony when they finished boot camp, which was quite spectacular (00:28:19:00)  All of the MCRD was in attendance, as well as the recruits’ parents and high-ranking officers (00:28:24:00)  The feeling that Dudeck had during the ceremony was something he never felt before in his life or has felt since, save for maybe the birth of his firstborn child (00:28:59:00) At the end boot camp, Dudeck knew that he was going to be a standard Marines grunt, as were all the other recruits in his training company; Dudeck cannot remember anyone not become a grunt at that time (00:29:14:00) Infantry Training Regiment / Camp Pendleton (00:29:27:00)  After finishing boot camp, Dudeck was sent to join an Individual Training Regiment (ITR) at Camp Pendleton, California (00:29:27:00) o Once he joined the ITR, Dudeck was assigned to a weapons platoon; specifically, he was assigned to work with an M-60 machine gun (00:29:33:00) o The ITR lasted four weeks and was extremely different than boot camp; the men were given a little bit of individual freedom and did not have to constantly look around to see who was watching them (00:29:42:00) o The ITR training was much more detailed in terms of focusing on basic tactics, how to properly use the weapons, etc. (00:30:07:00)  At that point, the trainers were trying to sort out which Marines could do what (00:30:20:00)  When Dudeck first joined the ITR, he was assigned the job of being an ammo carrier for an M-60 machine gun; apart from his �    own rifle and ammunition, Dudeck carried several cans worth of ammunition for the machine gun (00:30:39:00)  As the men moved up and down the mountains in the base, the trainers were able to establish a pecking order of who could handle carrying the heavy M-60 and who could not (00:30:51:00) o Dudeck quickly found himself carrying around the M-60 as opposed to the ammunition (00:31:26:00)  While in ITR, the Marines were able to “play with all the toys”, training with everything from flamethrowers and 3.5in rockets to the M-60 and the .50 caliber M2 (Ma Deuce) machine gun (00:31:48:00)  The men were even able to fire the old-fashioned water-cooled and air-cooled .30 caliber machine guns (00:32:10:00)  The men also trained with 81mm and 60mm mortars as well as older M1 Garand rifles (00:32:23:00)  At that point, it was still not exactly clear who would be doing what, so the men just trained with everything (00:32:42:00) The four weeks of ITR went really fast; there was so much that the Marines had to learn before they were assigned to the FMF (Fleet Marine Force) (00:32:55:00) Dudeck remembers receiving his first leave home after finishing ITR and he remembers watching the funeral of President Kennedy on the television at his home (00:33:34:00) Dudeck had a thirty-day leave and he remembers begin ordered back to join a company, Charlie 1/5 [C Company, 1st Battalion, 5th Marine Regiment], at Camp Pendleton (00:34:03:00) o When he arrived at the unit, the commanders started hollering that all the men were to fall out with their uniforms and weapons; the men thought that they might be going to war with Russia if something happened as a result of President Kennedy’s assassination (00:34:31:00) o Although there were some squad and platoon leaders already in the unit, for the most part, all the men in the company were coming back from their leaves following the end of ITR en masse (00:35:19:00) o Overall, it was a spooky time because the men did not know if the Russians were going to try something (00:35:36:00) o The heightened state-of-alert lasted for a couple of days to a week before the men started doing things that they would normally do at the company-level, which was mostly training in anticipation of deployment somewhere (00:35:57:00) In Dudeck’s opinion, he and the other Marines were completely unprepared for a deployment to Vietnam (00:36:34:00) o The Marines were meant to be a shock force intended to take ground while fighting on a fairly conventional battlefield; the Marines would take hills or territory and leave the area to someone else before moving on (00:36:43:00) o However, up until that point, the men had not received any sort of jungle training; although they did receive some before deploying to Vietnam, the men could have received more (00:37:10:00) o Most of the training the men had received was conventional, such as fire-andmaneuver (00:37:39:00) �   Nevertheless, a lot of the training was cool and fun to do; although Dudeck made light of the training, it was still serious business (00:37:53:00)  The men did do amphibious training, which was one of the most fun things they did (00:38:28:00)  The men did the training right on the beaches of San Diego, mixed right in with the sunbathers and beach-goers  (00:38:42:00)  Prior to the “landing”, the men would be taken out in large landing crafts and they would practice climbing over the sides of the crafts and into small rubber boats (00:39:08:00) o Over times, the landing crafts would be driving straight onto the beach (00:39:17:00) o The water was very, very cold and because the surf was high, a lot of the times, some of the men would end up in the water (00:39:21:00)  The amphibious training ended up being nothing the men ever used in Vietnam apart from when they arrived and went ashore for the first time (00:39:36:00)  The men also trained with amphibious vehicles, AMTRACs, although nobody really liked them, partially because the vehicles had a history of sinking out from under the men and because they were not very good in the heavy surf (00:39:51:00) o They could pack fifteen to twenty men in each of the vehicles and it was usually better than walking; however, even when the vehicles were used in Vietnam, Dudeck preferred walking over having to ride in one (00:40:37:00) It seemed like most all of the men in Dudeck’s company had a girlfriend in California and whenever the men had time off, they would go visit their girlfriend and go to different places (00:41:23:00) o The men also made frequent trips into nearby Mexico, with Tijuana being one of the stopping off points (00:41:53:00)  One time, all of Dudeck’s squad had gone to Mexico and when they returned, they tried to check out their machine guns and go back, “because they had a little job to take care of” (00:41:57:00)  Having taking Spanish in high school, Dudeck tried to use it once when a couple of the men were locked up in jail; finally, a Mexican cop told Dudeck to shut his mouth and leave (00:42:24:00) The men did a lot of training in the mountains, such as cold weather training; the men would do operations all day and into the night and by the time they woke up the next morning, the water in their canteens had frozen (00:43:13:00) o The men also did a lot of training in the Cleveland National Forest, which largely consisted of scrub brush (00:43:50:00)  At one point, the men were dropped off at a location with a couple of baked potatoes, a bag of rice, a couple of a canteens of water and a large supply of halizone tablets and told to survive for ten days (00:44:06:00) �   The men had to find their own sources of food apart from the baked potatoes and rice (00:44:26:00)  During the exercise, the men operated in small, squad-sized groups and each group had someone along with them that knew how to survive in the area (00:44:35:00)  At the end of the 10-day operation, the men were supposed to have a mock battle against a company of Recon Marines (00:45:15:00)  After Dudeck’s company had gathered back together, they had to scout the hill that the Recon Marines had occupied (00:45:36:00)  As they scouted the hill, Dudeck remembers looking out from behind a rock and seeing the Recon Marine commander, a large Native American, standing on a rock with his arms crossed and occasionally scanning with his binoculars (00:46:04:00)  Dudeck and the other men retreated back down the hill and snuck around to the other side, where a re-supply truck was coming up a road to the top of the hill (00:46:58:00) o The men ambushed and took control of the truck and had Dudeck’s squad climb in the back (00:47:12:00)  The men drove the truck right up to the Recon Marine’s CP, captured the company’s First Sergeant, then commander, placed both men inside the truck, and drove away (00:47:22:00) o The men also trained with armor forces, riding on tanks at the Marine Corps in Twenty-nine Palms, California (00:47:59:00)  The training was serious because it involved coordinating between the infantry forces and the armored forces, something that the men would use once they were in Vietnam (00:48:13:00)  At one point, Dudeck remembers sitting on the top of a hill with his machine gun dug in and watching practice F-4 bombing runs in the area below him (00:48:37:00)  At one point, one of the F-4’s flew directly over the hill where Dudeck and the rest of the men were sitting; the aircraft was so low that the exhaust blew Dudeck’s helmet off (00:49:02:00) When he first joined the Marines, Dudeck’s enlistment was supposed to last for four years, from 1963 to 1967 (00:49:45:00) During their training, Dudeck and the other men did not know anything about what was happening in Vietnam (00:50:46:00) o One day, all the men were called together, the company commander came out, said that there was a situation happening in Vietnam, and the Marines needed to be a part of it, even if it was “not much of a war” (00:50:50:00)  Although the commander asked for volunteers to go to Vietnam, Dudeck suspects that it would not have mattered one way or the other what the men said, they were going regardless (00:51:33:00)  Dudeck thought it was kind of odd that the commander asked if the men would “like to go to a war” (00:51:44:00) �o Following the company commander’s pep talk, Dudeck cannot remember the exact time frame until he officially deployed, although he suspects it was about a month or two (00:51:57:00)  At one point, the men were officially assigned their weapons, which turned out to be the same weapons that they had been training with in California (00:52:17:00)  The weapons had already been used by countless other Marines, so they were not in the very best of shape; however, the men made do with what they had (00:52:33:00) Deployment (00:52:47:00)  One day, the men found themselves on a dock in San Diego, boarding a ship with their entire battalion (00:52:47:00) o When the battalion first boarded the ship, it was 1st Battalion, 5th Marines; however, somewhere along the way, the designation changed and the battalion became 2nd Battalion, 9th Marines (00:53:11:00) o Before leaving San Diego, Dudeck does not recall the men ever receiving any sort of orientation for Vietnam; the “real world” opened up for the men once the ship reached Okinawa (00:54:15:00) o After leaving San Diego, the ship encountered a storm on the very first day out; Dudeck does not remember exactly how big the seas were but the boat was pitching back and forth (00:54:36:00) o The storm lasted almost the entire voyage to Hawaii and almost all the men were sick; Dudeck was one of maybe one hundred other men who did not get sick but he still did not feel very good (00:54:49:00)  The Navy personnel onboard the ship picked on the Marines for being seasick (00:55:06:00) o On the other hand, once the ship left Hawaii and sailed to Okinawa, the seas were calm and it was pleasant (00:55:40:00)  The ship stopped in Hawaii overnight and each of the men were given twenty-four hours of liberty leave (00:55:50:00)  Once the ship arrived at Okinawa, Dudeck and the other men were in an environment that was fairly close to the terrain they would later encounter in Vietnam (00:56:33:00) o It was on Okinawa where the men learned how to rappel and how to handle themselves in the water (00:56:43:00)  The men were taken out a couple of miles into the ocean, dumped in the water and told they had to swim back to the shore (00:56:53:00)  Although some of the men used lifejackets, Dudeck does not ever recall being assigned one (00:57:23:00)  The waters surround Okinawa were treacherous in terms of the fauna that lived in them; in particular, sea snakes (00:57:33:00) o Dudeck remembers looking down into the water and seeing seven to eight foot-long snakes swimming four feet below him; the snakes were really good incentive for the men to keep moving (00:57:48:00) �  The men did the rappelling off cliffs, as well as free-climbing in order to simulate attacks on enemy positions (00:58:26:00)  In order to get back down from the top of the cliffs, the men would rappel (00:58:52:00)  The men were expected to keep quiet during the training and one man took that to the extreme (00:59:02:00) o Whenever the men would rappel down, they would wear heavy-duty gloves (00:59:12:00) o However, in the case of the one soldier, he put on his gloves, slung his rifle over his shoulder, grabbed at the rope and began to rappel; the only problem was that he missed grabbing the rope (00:59:27:00) o The man fell all the way to the bottom of the cliff without saying a word; the only thing the other men heard was the clatter of his rifle as it hit the ground (00:59:33:00) o Although everyone else thought the man was dead, he was not even injured, apart from a handful of scrapes and bumps (00:59:45:00)  Other times, the men had to simulate carrying wounded men; however, doing a quick rappel with someone on their backs was not something the men really want to do (01:00:28:00) o Being one of the bigger guys in the company, Dudeck was forced to carry the heavier men (01:00:42:00) o Dudeck and the other Marines spent about a month to a month-and-a-half training on Okinawa (01:01:22:00) o There were pretty intense jungles on the island and the men spent a large portion of time training in them (01:01:32:00)  The training largely focused on maneuvering in the jungle and a lot of DOs and DON’Ts, such as effectively using camouflage (01:01:43:00)  There was not really any training for the more sophisticated aspects of jungle warfare that the men would later use in Vietnam; most of that information was learned through trial-and-error once the men were in Vietnam (01:02:08:00)  The training was meant as a heads-up to what the men might experience in Vietnam, such as booby-traps and how to use different materials to make their own traps (01:02:22:00)  Although the training was a really eye-opener, it was nothing compared to actually being in the bush (01:02:41:00) o Dudeck does not believe anyone who was training the men had been to Vietnam; although some senior NCOs had served on Okinawa during World War II, their level of understanding about what the men would be facing in Vietnam was only slightly more than the understanding the men had (01:02:52:00) To actually get from Okinawa to Vietnam, the men were loaded onto another ship; however, unlike the voyage(s) to Okinawa, the men did PT (physical training) every day, had classes about the training on Okinawa, etc. (01:03:41:00) � Once the men landed in Vietnam near Da Nang and began marching overland to the Da Nang Airport, Dudeck picked up some sort of bug and had a high fever (01:05:02:00) o Dudeck went through the landing and was scared to death; it was a real eye opener when the men were issued live ammunition and Dudeck was strapping ammunition to his chest and carrying the M-60 ashore (01:05:11:00)  The men did not know what to expect when they landed, so they had their weapons locked and loaded; naturally, it came as a shock when they landed on the beach and little old Vietnamese ladies were there selling beers and sodas (01:05:31:00) o By the time the men had marched to the airport, Dudeck had a raging headache, so he was sent to the medical battalion, which was about a mile up the road, and told to come back later (01:05:43:00)  Dudeck had a temperature of 104° and a couple of other issues; Dudeck does not remember how long he was at the medical battalion but he eventually ended up back with his unit, good as gold (01:06:03:00) o Initially, Dudeck’s unit was assigned to performing guard duty around the perimeter of the airport; although the men had been led to believe that they might encounter hoards of hostile Vietnamese at any moment, it did not quite turn out that way (01:06:27:00)  Every so often at night, the men would hear a shot or two go off but most of the times, it was another grunt who had gotten spooked (01:06:46:00)  During the entire time his unit was doing guard duty, Dudeck never once needed to fire his weapon and he does not know anyone who did fire their weapon (01:06:56:00) o Being in the heavy weapons platoon, Dudeck was normally assigned to one of the other platoons in the company; the entire platoon would be split up to the different platoons and it was not uncommon for Dudeck and the other men in the platoon to spend different days with different platoons (01:07:14:00)  Dudeck never really had an opportunity to see any of the other units stationed at the airport, although he knew there were a couple of South Vietnamese units stationed there (01:07:32:00) o At that time, Dudeck did not pay much attention to the Vietnamese civilians, although he is sure they were around; he remembers seeing small hooches where the civilians lived (01:07:57:00)  Dudeck suspects that because his unit was new in-country, the commanders did not allow the Vietnamese civilians to get too close, for fear that the civilians would spook the men, causing them to do something they might regret (01:08:14:00)  Once the unit was established in-country, then the Vietnamese civilians, especially the children, began to come around; the adults tended to stay away, wanting nothing to do with the men (01:08:33:00)  Some of the children were a lot smarter than the men gave them credit for because on in some cases, the children would mark the Marines’ locations on home-made maps (01:08:53:00) o Although Dudeck is sure that his company eventually began going out on patrols while still at the airport, he does not remember them (01:09:34:00) �  According to Dudeck, would make sense that they would do security sweeps around the perimeter instead of just sitting in a hole and waiting for something to happen (01:09:47:00)  Dudeck does not think that his unit suffered any casualties while stationed at the airport; it was not until they left the airport that things started to change (01:09:55:00) After Dudeck’s company had been in-country for quite some time, they received notification that the unit was being split up; however, the men did not know if that meant the entire company or platoons or squads (01:10:28:00) o Nevertheless, one days, the men were headed onto trucks and told they would be joining new units, although some would be staying with the original battalion, 2nd Battalion, 9th Marines (01:11:09:00) o Dudeck himself ended up be transferred to 3rd Battalion, 3rd Marines; like most of the other men, Dudeck believed the transfer was so that Dudeck was a replacement for another wounded Marine (01:11:18:00)  During the transfer, Dudeck’s original gun team from the company was broken up (01:12:22:00)  As well, when Dudeck thought about the transfer some years later, part of the reason may have been that the original company commander had not been in good standing as was relieved of command (01:12:28:00)  When Dudeck joined his new unit, there were some other men from his previous company joining as well (01:13:52:00) o Dudeck knew that his new unit was short-handed personnel wise because a standard M-60 gun team was supposed to be four men but when he joined his new team, he made it a three-man team (01:14:08:00)  The gun team already had a gunner when Dudeck arrived, so he became the team leader (01:14:25:00)  Dudeck vaguely knew the gunner in the new team; they had either crossed paths or briefly worked together prior to then (01:14:54:00) o When Dudeck transferred to the new company, he had to re-qualify with the rifle in order to establish himself within the new company (01:15:28:00)  Dudeck did not think it would be much of a problem because he had already qualified expert on a couple of occasions (01:15:39:00)  Before the actual qualification, Dudeck and the other Marines who had transferred were given one session at the rifle range to zero-in their rifles and make sure the rifles were firing accurately (01:15:58:00)  During the qualification, Dudeck had almost a perfect score through the 200yd, 300yd, standing, sitting, and kneeling; however, when he got to the 500yd, something went screwy (01:16:12:00)  As best Dudeck can figure, the targets were not numbered and he was shooting at the wrong target; Dudeck ended up never hitting his 500yd target once (01:10:08:00)  Luckily, Dudeck had enough points from the previous positions that he was still able to qualify; Dudeck does not know what would have happened had he not qualified (01:16:52:00) �Miscellaneous recollections (01:17:46:00)  Dudeck and the other Marines did not really understand the purpose behind their operations; the men’s philosophy was had they taken the entire 3rd Marine Division and placed them on a line, the division would have been in Hanoi in two weeks (01:17:46:00) o Some of the things that the men were assigned to do seemed crazy, such as having to go out in small groups (01:18:11:00) o When the Marines first arrived, they were supposed to be winning the hearts and minds of the Vietnamese; later on, the missions switched from winning the hearts and minds to search and destroy (01:18:19:00) o It was one thing to go in and try to be friendly with the local population, especially when the local population often did not want to have anything to do with the Marines (01:18:48:00)  About the only thing that the Marines did that Dudeck saw that was of any particular value at the time was that the Marine forces were able to bring in Navy corpsmen to look after the children and treat any wounds or injuries (01:18:58:00)  However, Dudeck suspects that half of the time, the corpsmen were treating wounded Viet Cong soldiers (01:19:10:00) o The Marine philosophy was to go in, take ground, and move on, with some other unit coming in behind the Marines to hold the ground (01:19:31:00) o Once the hearts and minds efforts began to fail, that was when the Marines began to go out in small groups in efforts to actively engage the enemy forces before calling in larger units (01:19:44:00)  However, the enemy units often never stood their ground long enough for a larger force to be called in, so the Marine units would be shot at for a little bit before going somewhere else (01:20:08:00) o Most of the operations did not make sense to Dudeck and the other Marines because it was not the types of operations that they had been trained to do, especially in California (01:20:23:00) o When the small teams would be moving around in the field, they would not want to be bogged down in extended firefights (01:20:43:00)  Normally, the teams would establish contact or, if they were lucky, spot the enemy before contact was established and would then step back to call in a mortar strike or air support (01:20:53:00)  As time went on, the men became a lot smart in doing the operations; their camouflage techniques became better, they ways they moved in the jungle became better, etc. (01:21:21:00)  Although there were individuals who had morale problems within the unit, as a whole, there were not morale problems for the unit (01:22:07:00) o Almost all of the men were very professional; everyone within the unit knew that they had a job to do (01:22:16:00) �     Even though Dudeck’s company(s) did take a lot of casualties during his tour, the casualties were spread out, often with one or two men being wounded or killed at any given time (01:22:24:00) o Just before he was wounded himself, Dudeck got the feeling it was inevitable that he would be hit; during his entire tour, Dudeck went through three different gun teams and it was only a matter of time until it was Dudeck’s turn (01:22:48:00) o As the casualties numbers went up, the gun teams just got smaller and smaller; at one point, Dudeck was a squad leader, which consisted of two gun teams, and the whole squad consisted of six soldiers, including Dudeck (01:23:14:00)  One good thing about Marine training was that it did not make any difference if someone was the ammo carrier or the gunner, or the squad leader; everyone could switch out and take over the job of someone else and it happened a lot (01:23:46:00)  A squad leader might be wounded or killed and all of a sudden, a PFC (Private, First Class) was the new squad leader (01:24:10:00) o Dudeck and the other Marines tried their best to make sure any replacements knew what was going on; however, there was some much that they needed to teach the replacements before taking them into the field that the information became a little overwhelming (01:24:46:00)  At one point, Dudeck sent one of his replacements out to get a canteen of water and the replacement end up being killed by a sabotaged 105mm artillery round (01:25:15:00)  The round had been placed on a trail that the replacement was walking on, which was something the more veteran soldiers avoided doing (01:26:18:00) Usually, when the men had to move through the partially flooded rice paddies, the ground was made up of a thick muck, although how thick the muck was usually depended on the time of year and how long the paddies had been flooded (01:27:11:00) o Sometimes, the men moved through paddies that were completely dry while other times, the paddies had just been flooded (01:27:27:00) Racial tensions within the unit were not much of an issue; through his own stupidity, Dudeck got himself into a problem one time (01:28:10:00) o Although it was a racial problem, at the time, Dudeck did not realize that it was a racial problem because he did not have any experience with African-Americans prior to joining the Marines (01:28:19:00)  By the time the Marines deployed to Vietnam, Dudeck was one of the elder statesman of the unit, at twenty-one years old (01:28:38:00) Along with there not being any racial tension, Dudeck never once heard of anyone ever using drugs in Vietnam (01:28:57:00) Part of the lack of racial tension or drug use came from the high moral amongst the men; they firmly believed that they were going to kick ass and take names (01:29:17:00) o However, over time, the men realized that they were not expected to win, partially because the commanders were not allowing them to win; the men were not allowed to do the things they needed to do in order to win (01:29:38:00)  Dudeck remembers officers coming into the field and telling the men they were not to fire their weapons until they were fired upon (01:29:55:00) �  However, if the men were walking in jungle where they could only see five or six feet in front of themselves and they waited for the enemy to take the first shot, they were dead meat (01:30:04:00)  Whenever Dudeck carried the M-60, it was locked and loaded, with the safety off (01:30:22:00) o The rule of the bush was always “the first guy to shoot was the one who lives” (01:30:26:00)  During the times the men were at a camp and would be going into the field for a patrol, there would be an NCO waiting to check each of the men’s rifle chambers to make sure there was not a round in the chamber (01:30:40:00) o That lasted until the men were about 10yds beyond the perimeter, when they all chambered a round; all the men knew that leaving the wire without a round in the chamber was just asking for trouble (01:30:57:00) During the six plus months he was in Vietnam, Dudeck only saw a city, Da Nang, once and the only reason he went there for a day was to act as a guard a truck; Dudeck had time to have one beer at the bar before having to head back (01:32:30:00) o Other than that one trip into Da Nang, Dudeck was in the field for the length of his time in-country (01:33:07:00) o Although they would try to fly food out to men in the field, such as a full Thanksgiving meal, it did not always turn out well; for example, six hours after the Thanksgiving meal, all the soldiers were sick (01:33:12:00)  Another time, the Marines tried flying fresh-baked bread out to the men on board helicopters along with big vats of peanut butter and jelly (01:33:49:00)  However, when the men broke the bread open, the inside was green from mold, although the men ate it anyway (01:34:07:00)  Other than those handful of times, the men mostly ate C-Rations, apart from the rare occasions when they made it into a base camp, when they were able to have a hot meal, which was not always good but was at least better than C-Rations (01:34:26:00)  From time to time, the men did receive a “beer ration” while in the field; although they were technically supposed to receive two beers or two sodas a day, they received that once every couple of weeks (01:34:47:00)  They would only fly the ration out if the unit was going to be in an area for several days (01:35:09:00) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Dudeck, Louis (Interview outline and video, 1 of 2), 2007 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dudeck, Louis Description An account of the resource Louis Dudeck was born in 1943 in Bloomer, Wisconsin, and enlisted in the Marine Corps in 1963. He trained at San Diego and Camp Pendleton, and served with the 1st Battalion, 5th Marine Regiment at Pendleton until he unit was deployed to Vietnam in 1965 and redesignated as the 2nd Battalion, 9th Marines. His unit did jungle training on Okinawa, and then landed at Da Nang, the first ground combat unit in Vietnam. His battalion initially guarded the Da Nang airport, then went to Chu Lai, and Dudeck was then transferred to the 3rd Battalion, 3rd Marines, with whom he participated in Operation Harvest Moon in December, where his company took heavy losses. A few weeks later, while operating in the A Shau Valley, Dudeck was badly wounded and sent first to Japan and then to the US to recuperate, and was discharged for medical reasons in 1966. [Note: the first interview includes most of his combat history, and the second fills in some gaps in the early part of the story and clarifies several aspects of his Vietnam service.] Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Nawrocki, Ashley (Interviewer) Lowell Area Historical Museum (Lowell, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings United States. Marine Corps Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2007-05-30 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DudeckL0256V Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/366a00d66a105c8841953f0a96de670b.mp4 25bf196a2b1222da468a502a614ea094 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/eec355428655e388792079b8ed4e3648.pdf 1e46206350fb3f01fafe9a18e30e8da5 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Iraq Steve Dumond Total Time – (26:50) Background · He was born December 24, 1986, in Grand Rapids, Michigan (00:03) · Before the service, he was in high school o He went to boot camp two weeks after he graduated from high school (00:23) Enlistment/Training – (01:00) · · · · He joined because it was something that he always wanted to do He wanted to see different things and meet different people He served in the Marine Corps and achieved the rank of Corporal (01:08) Boot camp was not very difficult o It was more of a shock effect than anything else o It was a big change (01:55) · He went into basic training June 13, 2005 (02:13) o Basic training was 13 weeks long · After boot camp he went to School of Infantry (02:37) o It lasted two months long · It was not extremely difficult adapting to military life Active Duty – First Tour – (03:55) · He went to Iraq two times o Once in March of 2006 and again in September 2007-April 2008 (04:12) · When he first arrived in Iraq there was still a lot of action going on · He served in a mobile unit (04:28) o They would go city-to-city trying to capture or kill the insurgents · He served with a very good platoon that worked well together o They never lost any men in their platoon (04:58) · His second tour in 2007-2008 was very boring (05:15) �· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · He is able to stay in touch with some of his comrades The war has made him realize that life could be a lot worse (06:33) It also made him gain a better understanding of how precious life can be He was able to stay in touch with his family through a satellite phone (07:04) o The phone was passed between vehicles o At the bases there were phone banks where soldiers can use pre-paid calls o E-mail and Facebook were also used His platoon would have down time where they would watch DVD’s, smoke cigarettes, play cards, etc. (08:14) He has occasional thoughts of getting back into the service He married his wife halfway through his enlistment (09:42) When he came back from Iraq it was difficult to adjust to civilian life o There were a couple of instances where problems came through alcohol abuse o He knows that some of the men are not the same now as when he first knew them (10:53) When he came home he felt like his family looked at him somewhat differently He was serving when his first child was born He talks to six friends on a weekly basis (12:42) o They sometimes reminisce on the times that they had together o They try to get together as much as they can In Iraq they would sleep in the desert next to their vehicles with their loaded weapons in their sleeping bags (13:58) o It was an adjustment to have a weapon on him at all times o He was always on a heightened state of alertness § It is difficult when coming home to calm it down (14:45) o It was harder to break the habits when he came home (14:55) He was in a Light Armored Reconnaissance Unit (15:12) o They always had eight wheeled vehicles that were extremely mobile His platoon started out in Al Qa’im, Iraq (15:43) o They were there for a couple of weeks before being transferred to Fallujah, Iraq (15:50) When in Fallujah, they went to a town on the outskirts called Garma for two months at an observation post (15:59) o It was virtually in an old barn o They would try to set up observation posts that would catch the insurgents setting IED’s (Improvised Explosive Device) § It was extremely difficult to catch them After Garma, they went to several cities until they finally reached Rawa, Iraq (17:13) o Rawa was a town of roughly 50,000 Iraqi’s o His unit was in charge of locking down the city (17:29) o They would patrol 7-8 patrols every day § Each patrol was two hours long �o They were trying to prevent the insurgents from having any breathing room o They lost seven men in Rawa during a two month span (18:03) Active Duty – Second Tour – (18:26) · On his second tour, the marines and soldiers had been doing such a good job that the insurgents had fled the cities o His platoon was sent to the desert and told to find the insurgents (18:59) o It was like a “wild goose chase” · Because the time was going so slow, he started to miss home more · There were days where he would be in the middle of the desert and they would watch the “Lord of the Rings” trilogy straight through (20:07) · When his platoon lost seven men, there was one of them that he was close to (21:15) o His friend was killed by a suicide bomber o He was 19 years old o A truck full of explosives hit the men o He remembers when he was told that he had hatred towards the enemy and then being angry (23:21) § He felt like they were there to help people but then he thought, “Screw these people. Let’s get rid of them all.” Lessons of War – (24:05) · His war experience has helped to pave the way for everything that he has done since then o He is in a police academy · The war has given him confidence (24:45) · He does not regret being in the military (25:53) · He learned “to not sweat the small stuff” � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Dumond, Steve (Interview outline and video), 2011 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dumond, Steve Description An account of the resource Steve Dumond was born in 1986 in Grand Rapids, Michigan. He joined the Marine Corps immediately after high school in 2005. After boot camp and infantry training, he completed two tours in Iraq, one in 2006 and the second from September 2007 through April of 2008. In Iraq, he served in a Light Armored Reconnaissance Unit. During his first tour, his unit fought insurgents in Al Qa'im, Fallujah, Garma and Rawa. Steve served in observation posts that would catch insurgents laying IED's. After Garma, his platoon worked through many cities until finally reaching Rawa. By his second tour, the insurgents had mostly left the cities, and his unit was sent to find insurgents in the desert in what was a "wild goose chase", although at one point they lost several men to an IED. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Arnold, Caitlyn (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Iraq War, 2003-2011--Personal narratives, American United States. Marine Corps Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-06-01 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DumondS1204V Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/72c3422515b8d54d6ae274ad2c872903.pdf e9f7a484a168227205059aa89a379079 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: William E. Dunbar Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 7/15/2012 Biography and Description Billy Dunbar is a member of the Chicago Illinois Chapter of the Black Panther Party for Self-Defense (BPP). He is from the south side of Chicago. He keeps up with all the political events related to the BPP and the Rainbow Coalition, including the era of their origins. Mr. Dunbar is also a founding member of the Illinois BPP History Project, which is currently conducting oral histories to document the Chicago Chapter, so that the work of their members is not forgotten. Their project also wants the public to remember the impact that BPP Chairman Fred Hampton not only had on the African American community but on other communities of color and the poor. Mr. Dunbar is also a businessman. Today he owns a copy center.Chicago BPP Chairman Fred Hampton and BPP member Mark Clark were murdered in a predawn raid on December 4, 1969. Prior to his death, Mr. Hampton started a Rainbow Coalition, which was nurtured by Bobby Lee. The original members included the Young Patriots, a group of Hillbillies or southern whites from the Uptown neighborhood of Chicago of whom many had migrated from Appalachia and other southern areas, and the Young Lords from Lincoln Park. The Young Lords first met Fred Hampton at John Boelter’s and Ralph Rivera’s home and joined the Rainbow Coalition directly through Fred Hampton. Bobby Lee who was the BPP Field Marshall then began working more directly with José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez and the Young Lords in Lincoln Park. �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: Okay, so we’re going to start. And again, like I said, just kind of relax. Give me your name, Billy, and date of birth, and where you were born. WILLIAM DUNBAR: I could’ve had all this prepared. Yeah, my name is Billy Dunbar. I was born on the South Side of Chicago in 1949 in September, a longtime South Side resident. I’ve lived between the neighborhood, the community Chatham and South Shore. Going to have to keep asking questions. JJ: Chatham, South Shore. WD: I attended Harlan High School from 1963 to 1967, and Harlan High School was the equivalent of what Whitney Young is today, a college prep. We had a number of National Merit scholars. We had a good sports team, a good academic program. We were good Americans. [00:01:00] JJ: What about the grammar school that -- WD: Well, we kind of integrated the grammar school, Burnside Elementary School, 90th and Langley on Chicago South Side. Went there. JJ: What do you mean you kind of integrated? WD: Well, we moved to 8900 South in 1961, and the South Side of Chicago was pretty well segregated, meaning that as whites moved out, Blacks were able to move in. In some areas – JJ: What areas? WD: Give you an example, the area where we lived was at 89th near King Drive. It was South Park Avenue. Black people did not live in any significant numbers 1 �west of Halsted at that time, and those Blacks who did move into the area, let’s say, 7900 South and [00:02:00] Western -- I mean Halsted -- is 800 West, anybody that moved across that line was subject to having their houses vandalized, their garages burned down, crosses on their lawns, Knight Riders, the whole business, as if we were in the South. JJ: What year was this? WD: This was 1957 through ’64, ’65. There was a lot of racial turmoil in those changing neighborhoods. JJ: So, in ’57, ’59, around there, nobody’s west? You said west? WD: No significant numbers of Black people lived west of Halsted in 1958, and as late as 1965, they would still -- although Blacks were then attending Morgan Park High School, which is far south in Morgan Park. Calumet High School, which is where Doc Satchel attended, that was a school recently [00:03:00] integrated. JJ: Doc Satchel was a -- WD: Doc Satchel was a minister of health in the Illinois Chapter of the Black Panther Party. He attended there before he became a Panther. That school was a hotbed of unrest because this was a new area for Blacks to attend in any significant numbers. Calumet High School was 80th and Racine, around in that area. I don’t remember the exact address. JJ: It was a hotbed of unrest, you said. WD: Yeah, a lot of racial turmoil there. JJ: Was it racial turmoil? Or you were young; was it gang or racial? WD: No, it was race. 2 �JJ: It was race. WD: Another school that’s been solidly Black for a long time is South Shore High School. In 1966, it was predominantly white. Now it’s predominantly Black and has been probably since 1969. [00:04:00] JJ: Okay, this is 79th Street and that, but then later on, you get The Woodlawn Organization, What were they doing? Were you familiar with them? TWO. Is that what it’s called? WD: TWO was probably established as a significant entity about 1965, ’66. JJ: This is later. WD: This is later, like I said. Actually, the first house I lived in was 6741 South Avenue, which is in Woodlawn. TWO’s main focus area was 63rd Street, which was a main artery, Cottage Grove, which is a main street. In fact, my parents, Black people didn’t live south of 63rd Street when my parents were teenagers, so the spread of [00:05:00] Black population in the city of Chicago has been gradual but steady. JJ: So, on the South Side, what was the first area of the Black community, the African American community? WD: Famous Black Belt, Black Metropolis around -- actually, it started south of the Loop, and it spread southward from there year after year after year after year, 47th Street, just incrementally block by block by block as whites moved out. Integration, I mean, not integration, the migration from the south is where the Black population in Chicago came from. JJ: So, they’re starting near the Loop somewhere because of downtown jobs? 3 �WD: South Loop was because that’s where the train ended. That’s where you got off the train when you came from the south. There’s actually information on the books that tells you that Blacks from Mississippi and Alabama got off of one train and lived in one area, and Blacks from other southern states got off a different train and lived on the West Side. So, I don’t [00:06:00] remember which group lives where, but that’s kind of how that’s spread out. Jobs are incidental to that. JJ: Okay, so it didn’t have anything to do with jobs. WD: Not particularly, no. It’s a matter of living where -- you know, you get off the train here within that area. Who’s already there? You know people, and you live around your own kind. JJ: What’s your mother and father’s name? WD: My parents were both born and raised in Chicago. They both went to Englewood High School. I think DuSable was the other name. DuSable, Wendell Phillips, and Englewood were the three major Black-attended high schools. There were restrictions, and this is going back to 1945, 1943; there were restrictions for where Blacks could attend school as well. These things weren’t written down, but they just wouldn’t let you transfer in. So, for instance, my mother, who lived on 67th and Evans, was closer to Hyde Park [00:07:00] High School, but she had to travel all the way to Englewood, which is 67th and Stewart, a considerable distance west, because that’s where the Black students went. JJ: And what school was that? WD: That’s Englewood High School. JJ: Englewood, okay. And what was your mom’s name and your dad’s name? 4 �WD: Carlotta Dunbar and Wayne Dunbar. JJ: Okay, and your siblings, or were there any? WD: I have no brothers and sisters. I’m an only child. JJ: Okay. Wait, you said she had to travel? Who was going to travel? WD: Well, it was, you know, you got on the bus. My mother traveled and my father, well, my father lived in Englewood. My father lived on 61st and Racine, so for him, going to Englewood was a matter of coming back east. My mother lived at 67th and Evans. It’s a block off of Cottage Grove, so she had to travel west. Englewood was about 400 East on 63rd Street. JJ: So, how was it growing up then? I mean, [00:08:00] you were growing up in the African American community, right? WD: Right. JJ: And (inaudible) segregated. WD: No. And I guess my life was pretty comfortable because everybody in my neighborhood was Black. By the time we bought houses south of 87th Street, the neighborhood was changing, and I think there was one white family that lived within a block radius, and maybe there were a couple white kids that went to Burnside School with us when we were there, when we graduated. We were part of the Black baby boomers. You know, they don’t really consider, count Blacks as baby boomers, but we were there. And Harlan High School was built in 1963. When it opened, it was, I think, supposed to house like, say, 1,600 students. By the time I got there in 1963, it was overcrowded to the point that [00:09:00] there were 4,600 students. There were over 600 people in my initial graduating class, 5 �and they had mobile units, and they had periods, 1st and 9th, 2nd through 10th, 3rd through 11th, and 4th through 12th, 12 periods of classes to accommodate the volume of students that were there. JJ: And was it gang infested, or was it more stable? Or was it middle class or what type of neighborhood? WD: The area that Harlan High School is in was a middle-class Black community. There was some gang activity, but the gangs were not significantly developed at that time. You had some folks that would hang out because again, like I said, Harlan was pretty much a college prep institution, [00:10:00] so you had students who were really preparing themselves to go to college. And then you had the folks who just wanted to go and get high, smoking up in the washrooms, nothing unusual. Gangs did not really get organized in Chicago until after the ’60s, middle of the ’60s, when they started trying to train the gangs. What was it called? What kind of money did they get from the City? They had some kind of training programs where they tried to -- JJ: Oh, job training programs. WD: Job training programs. JJ: We had the YMCA (inaudible) program on the North Side. I don't know. WD: Well, no, they didn’t call it that on the South Side. They did have a lot of training programs, and they gave this money -- the most famous story is about Jeff Fort and how much money they got to initiate training programs for their membership, to rehabilitate them. 6 �JJ: But I mean, if they had training programs, that means that they already had some kind of inkling of the gangs. WD: Well, the Blackstone [00:11:00] Rangers. JJ: Are you trying to say that it was the poverty programs that started the gangs? WD: No. You know, gang’s a group of young men who hang out because they appreciate each other’s company, and they do things that are a little bit outside the law from time to time. Maybe they’re breaking curfew. Maybe they’re gambling. Maybe they’re drunk and disorderly. You know, maybe they don’t respect the law. Maybe they’re not being as respectful as they should be, but they were not set up to be criminal institutions, which they became after the ’60s. There was a change in focus among the gangs to consolidate their power, and they actually had connections and affiliations. There were all sorts of little subgroups of gangs all over the South Side, in each little [00:12:00] quarter. In various different communities, they had some type of different thing. JJ: They tried to go in branches or something? WD: Those subgroups of folks considered themselves to be Blackstone Rangers or whatever, and I don't know the gang history that well, but at a certain point, the Rangers consolidated subgroups and formed the Black P. Stone Nation, and by that time, if you look at the records, they were a criminal institution. They were doing the extortion. They were selling drugs, more than just marijuana. They were probably selling hard drugs, but I don’t have the information. I can’t speak on that. I was never a gang member. 7 �JJ: But do you remember what I’m saying? They were around, what street, 63rd Street or -- WD: There was gang activity everywhere. There was gang activity from -- I mean, Chatham, Chatham is one of the most solid middle-class Black communities in the country, and until [00:13:00] my eldest started passing on their properties to grandchildren, it’s been Black, well maintained, no boarded-up houses. Take exception to this latest real estate issues. There were limited foreclosures, so it was very stable. Yet still, you had areas. You had some folks still trying to be in a gang around Tinley Park, which is 90th and King Drive. You had gang activity along 95th Street, Syndicate Rangers up there. It was just cropping up. It was just a reality. JJ: It just started cropping up in the mid-’60s. WD: In the mid-’60s. JJ: Was it becoming unstable in the neighborhood? Did that contribute to it, or was it still stable when you got there? WD: The neighborhood remained stable until maybe as late as the ’80s. And then [00:14:00] at this point, I think there was more shootings. I think the harder drugs may have changed attitudes, and again, it was more a business venture, and then some turf issues. JJ: The drugs contributed, or no? Something must’ve contributed to making it more - I mean, there’s always youth hanging out together. But you don’t think something contributed, some outside force? 8 �WD: I couldn’t speak to it. I don’t even have a theory on it. I just know that there was a rise in violence. JJ: And this began in the mid-’60s. WD: Yeah. JJ: Ok, but other than that, before that, the neighborhood was fine, good place to live? WD: Well, the gangs never got the best of Chatham. It’s probably worse now than it has ever been. Now we’re concerned that we don’t have safety in our own communities because the youngest people who have no respect for the law, nor do they also have no respect for the community. So, [00:15:00] where they’re trying to settle a beef with one another with a .22 or a .38 pistol, they’re just shooting into a crowd and shooting across the street. They’re kind of indiscriminate. And their gang affiliations don’t hold them in any way responsible for their actions. You know, there’s no OGs; there’s no old guys that can come and say, “Hey, you’re claiming to be P. Stone,” or, “You’re claiming to be Blackstone. We need you to cut this out.” They just do not respond, and that’s the current phenomenon. But there was never, in Chatham, any significant gang activity that disrupted the community. JJ: And you’d never joined the gang. WD: No. JJ: How did you look at the gang then? WD: Well, I recognized their presence, but they weren’t doing anything I was interested in doing. And they were self-serving. They were people who were at 9 �a point in life and getting drunk and hanging out and [00:16:00] getting drunk the next day and hanging out, and that’s all they wanted to do, get their hustle on, get some money. That didn’t appeal to me. JJ: So, what was appealing to you then? WD: Well, you know, I was in high school, preparing for the future. Where it was, I didn’t know. Biggest issue for me was Vietnam. I had the unique occurrence of watching footage of Vietnam and the civil rights activities in the south on the news every night. As part of the news segment, there’d be these statistics on how many people were killed in Vietnam, troop movements, this, that, and the other, and then they might do a spot on the civil rights struggle in the south. And [00:17:00] at 16 and 17, Vietnam is very far away; the war is very far away, but at 18, we were required to fill out our Selective Service forms. We were required to register with the government our whereabouts as part of the Selective Services and then have our names entered into a lottery if we weren’t in school. And our names would be drawn, and then we would be conscripted to fight, or conscripted to join the Army. That was a little disturbing, so by the time I turned 18, I had to decide whether or not I was going to go to war or go to college, so I opted for college. But again, watching these things unfold on television, it didn’t make sense to me that I would go to Vietnam and fight for freedom for Vietnamese people in Vietnam when Black people couldn’t go down south and drink from water fountains and couldn’t eat at lunch counters. You know, they’re still living in houses with no running water, that [00:18:00] things significantly hadn’t changed since -- 10 �JJ: This was talking to community, or this is something that you’re reading? WD: Well, this is something that I saw on television. These were things that were coming together in front of me. JJ: But they’re hitting you. WD: They’re hitting me. And the conversations that we were having in school primarily centered around the war. You know, we’d had our skirmishes, and I’d had friends who were, quote/unquote, run out of white business areas like Roseland. They literally were chased out of Roseland at dark by white kids, and I didn’t have that particular experience, but I was confronted with white people, white kids in other areas when we traveled on the bus and things like that. JJ: You were experiencing prejudice and -- WD: Prejudice and racism, yeah. JJ: But then it’s your government, or it’s your country. How are you looking at it? WD: (laughs) [00:19:00] JJ: Are you looking at it like, “This is my country, my beloved country”? WD: Well, up to the point. Now, you know, I didn’t have a significant world view. I’m living in an insulated community, working-class community where you’ve got teachers, bus drivers, steel mill workers, housewives, people going to college, people with college education. You’ve got just a rich mix of working-class people in my community and I’m seeing all the time, and so that’s what America’s all about. Now, we happen to be Black, so for me to go to 95th and Western and be confronted by white kids who are calling me nigger and say, “What you doing here,” and this kind of stuff, to go and file an application for a job and have them 11 �put it in the garbage, you know, [00:20:00] those kind of things contrast greatly with the American ideals. JJ: Was the discussion related to this, what you’re saying now? You said you were having discussions in school. WD: Conversations finally came to that. I kind of came to my own political sense by myself. We were looking at things more individualized as students. In 1966, at Harlan High School, there was no Black Student Union. There was no particular historically based Black consciousness movement. We were aware that we were Black people, but it wasn’t based on study. It wasn’t based on our understanding of history. It wasn’t based on our understanding of our relationship with white people, but we just knew we were Black, [00:21:00] and in certain cases, we were catching hell because of that. We could always hear stories from our parents about their confrontations with white people. JJ: And they grew up in Chicago, your parents. WD: Yeah. Well -- JJ: They were having the same problems? WD: They were having issues with discrimination on the job. Their issues, for instance, again, like I said, we moved at 8900 South in about 1957, and there was a local savings and loan, Chesterfield Savings and Loan. They declined to allow my parents to have a savings account there, based on race. JJ: Clear. WD: Straight out. “We won’t let you put --” JJ: “Don’t put no money.” 12 �WD: What excuse do you have when you won’t let somebody put money in your bank? And we’re not talking about a checking account; we’re talking about a savings account. JJ: They just basically told them, “You can’t come here”? WD: “We’re not going to accept you.” Yeah. “We’re not going to do business with you.” [00:22:00] So, in all the most subtle forms, and that was a conversation that I heard from my parents; they talked about racism in the north as being extremely subtle. They said, “At least (audio cuts out) stand with white people.” So, these were things that were just common to me. And again, I don’t remember having a lot of discussions about civil rights with my classmates, but among the young men, the war was preeminent because we all knew we were going to have to deal with that at some point. I do know people that joined. I know I lost a cousin to Vietnam. He was in the country like six months and got killed in a helicopter. I have classmates that didn’t return. JJ: (inaudible) you had to go through school? WD: Well, I didn’t go to Vietnam. I didn’t join the service. I didn’t participate in the Selective Service system because I joined the Black Panther Party, and I actually sent in my [00:23:00] Selective Service card and told them I couldn’t participate. JJ: What do you mean? WD: I sent a letter in. I told them. I was like, “Hey, I’m in the people’s army. Our rules state clearly that we cannot be in any other army, and consequently I will not be able to participate in your war.” JJ: Just like that? 13 �WD: Just like that. I may still somewhere have in my files a copy of that later. However, that wasn’t what got me out of the military. But that is what I did. I knew people that had fled, were conscientious objectors, and at least one brother did some time for that. JJ: So, now, this is ’68 because of the Panthers and -- WD: Yeah, this is ’67, ’68. I joined the Illinois Chapter of the Black Panther Party in 1968. They were doing organizing in the summer of ’68, and I kind of put my name -- JJ: When you say they were organizing, what do you mean? WD: They had not established a headquarters, but they -- [00:24:00] JJ: They hadn’t established a headquarters. WD: In the summer of 1968, there was no headquarters for the Illinois Chapter. There was no leadership cadre. There was no structure in the summer of 1968. They were just forming a structure, the basis for the party. JJ: So, how was the organizing? How were you forming? WD: It was word of mouth. There were some people who were Panthers who were making themselves known, and they were looking. I guess you could say they were recruiting. JJ: So, they were recruiting on a door-to-door basis or just a friend thing? WD: I found out, I was on a college campus. JJ: So, the campus in the colleges? WD: Yeah. JJ: They were recruiting? Okay. 14 �WD: They were recruiting, I guess, to some extent, on college campuses, and I was fortunate, the summer before I started college, to be on campus and get to meet some upperclassmen and to see [00:25:00] actually a poster, a flyer on a bulletin board that said the Panthers were here. So, you know, I said, “Well, where are they? I don’t see them.” One day, a guy comes up, and he puts his hand on my shoulder, and he says, “Are you Billy Dunbar?” I was like, “Yes.” He says, “Are you interested in learning about the Panthers?” I said, “Yes.” He said, “Come with me,” and that’s how it all began. JJ: So, they had specific people that were just organizers? WD: Yeah. JJ: And they were in the students. Now, there was a lot of speaking too, right? Was that related to the recruitment? WD: At the time I joined -- JJ: It was just word of mouth? WD: Right, it was word of mouth. At the time I joined, it was based on what little I knew about the party from television, from the newspapers, and I’m going to have to say I must’ve read a newspaper, a Black Panther Party newspaper and then made aware of their 10-point program because it was very concise, [00:26:00] and it spoke to a lot of issues that Black people had been coping with in America for a long time. And then it had the most important part, the tenth point that talked about the UN-supervised plebiscite, where Black people would get a chance to determine, or to speak on their own national destiny. (car alarm beeps) I don’t know if you want that horn in there. 15 �(break in audio) JJ: You were talking about the plebiscite. Do you remember that? WD: The important part of the 10th point, the 10th point of the 10-point program, is that it speaks to a need. It speaks to the fact that Black people, who were brought to America in chains and forced to work for generations without any economic compensation, had never been allowed to choose their own destiny collectively. [00:27:00] Nobody’s ever asked us what we thought about being here. Nobody ever asked us, did we recognize ourselves as a group? Nobody ever gave us a thought one way or the other, and we need to be able to collectively decide our future. Malcolm X pressed the issue of our condition as a matter of human rights, and the Black Panther Party came after Malcolm X and carried that issue forward again. Everything that the Black Panther Party has done has really based itself on human rights issues as opposed to civil rights issues. So, when I looked into scope of the platform of the program, I said, “This is what I want to do. This is where I need to be.” You know, a lot is made about President Kennedy, and he's a hero and [00:28:00] progressive and all the rest of this stuff, but one of his statements that he made is that, “Ask not what the country can do for you, but ask what you can do for the country.” And so, the concept of making the world a better place than you found it was appealing, and it was progressive, and it inspired a lot of people. So, as I said, even though I was a young Black man growing up in America, insulated in my Black community, I felt like I would have an opportunity to do the best for my country that I could do. And when my country rejected so many Blacks offhandedly, as evidenced by the civil rights 16 �struggle, then I shifted focus, and I said, “Well, you know, maybe we should be doing for ourselves. Maybe we should at least investigate that part.” JJ: So, this was a whole thing of self-determination? WD: Self-determination, [00:29:00] exactly. The best thing, one of the best things that happened by joining the Black Panther Party was the reading that we were required to do. Reading Frantz Fanon, The Wretched of the Earth, which is probably the basis for Black Panther philosophy and ideology, simple concept that Huey and Bobby looked to the Black people in America as a colony, similar to all the colonial states that Europe held in Africa, but Black people were a colony within the boundaries of the United States. And so, from that principle, we had not been allowed to achieve our own self-determination. The relationships were very similar, especially if you go by the outline of Frantz Fanon, the relationship between the colonists and the colonizer, because we certainly were colonized. All of our value structures were based on white people’s visions [00:30:00] and views. Even though we weren’t white, we used the same value structures that they used, except they could use it against us. So, The Wretched of the Earth is a primary source of reference, and it still holds true to today. JJ: When you did these readings, was it like a study group or (inaudible) classes? How were they run? WD: When the chapter finally got a headquarters in November of 1968, and -- JJ: This was on Madison? WD: This is on West Madison, Madison and Western. They started having political orientation classes. And some classes were just general political information 17 �classes for the public, and then there were other classes that were a little more detailed, which required reading, for people who were going to become party members. JJ: Oh, so it was a division that became the -- WD: Pretty much, because there was like -- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) classes, and [00:31:00] this is more disciplined. WD: Right. They couldn’t require that people who were coming in who were curious about the party program, couldn’t require that they read the Red Book, read up on Marxism and Leninism, Frantz Fanon, various other pamphlets, Malcolm X. They couldn’t require that of the public, but if you’re going to be part of the organization, you had to be knowledgeable. JJ: So, you had to read the Red Book. WD: You had to read. There were assignments. JJ: Leninism and all that. WD: Now, when I finally got to Madison and Western, that’s when I met Fred Hampton, and at that initial time, I’m not sure if Che was the minister of education or not, because they had another brother teaching political orientation class. I want to say -- JJ: This was Billy? WD: Yeah, Billy “Che” Brooks. He was the minister of education, but they had another brother we called [00:32:00] Teach, who actually taught class. And someone asked a question of Fred once, “Well, this political orientation class, what’s that about?” He said, “How long does that take?” And Fred explained that that was 18 �where you would learn the ideology of the Black Panther Party. That’s where you would learn the principles. That’s where you would learn to understand and explain the platform and the programs of the party. And so, somebody else is still asking, “Well, how long does that take?” He says, “Well, think of it as a six-hour college course, where you’re going to be able to learn the basics of the party.” And so, I took it at that. JJ: Had you heard of Fred Hampton before? WD: No. I was not familiar with Fred Hampton until I got to Madison Avenue. And then conversation -- JJ: (inaudible) to this conversation. WD: Right. So, conversations after that around who was in charge, who was chairman, the structure [00:33:00] and all that, then that was presented to me. And shortly after I heard Fred speak, then I began to understand why he was in the position he was in. Initially, all the brothers was just brothers. You know, it was just some knowledgeable people serious about making a positive change to the Black people, and it was all good. But when Fred spoke, you could see his understanding of things. You could get a feel for his sincerity. He was extremely motivational. JJ: Well, you wanted to join the Panthers why? Some people draw an issue (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). WD: It was the most important group to be with. I didn’t see myself joining the NAACP. I didn’t see myself joining Corps. Operation Breadbasket, which was Jesse Jackson’s organization -- 19 �JJ: What was the problem with the NAACP? They’re a good organization. WD: Too conservative. Corps, it [00:34:00] wasn’t for me with them, but they were more job oriented, not that Corps was a bad organization; they just weren’t, quote/unquote, progressive enough for me. Breadbasket -- JJ: You definitely wanted to do something (inaudible). WD: Right. I was motivated to do something. Again, I’m 18, 19 years old, and my options are Vietnam or -- so, I’m not going to be a conscript and go fight for rights of other people when my people don’t have rights at home. JJ: So, that was clear. WD: That was my choice. JJ: That was clear in your head. WD: That’s clear in my head, and that was it. JJ: “There’s something wrong here, and I’m not going to do it.” WD: It’s the biggest wrong I could see. JJ: “You’re not going to force me into the service.” WD: Right. JJ: Okay. And so, now you’re looking for involvement. WD: Right. JJ: Had you been an activist before then? [00:35:00] WD: Nope, no activism. JJ: And no demonstrations or anything? WD: Nope, no politics whatsoever. JJ: Just, you were reading or -- 20 �WD: Huh? JJ: So, you were reading. I mean, out of nowhere, you -- WD: Well, no. I mean, this is a matter of, I’ve told people in recent years that there’s about a -- JJ: They weren’t paying you. The Panthers were not paying. WD: The Panthers did not pay a dime. We were volunteers. And let me go on record of saying that for my comrades, the people that joined the Black Panther Party are some of the most courageous individuals that have ever lived. No matter what the contribution, when you put the [tam?] on, when you put that Red Book in your pocket, you were a marked individual, and you stood for principles that the US government only espouses and never backs up. The Black Panther Party is one of the most important volunteer organizations to ever exist. Okay, [00:36:00] so many times, you hear about people who do heroic acts; they see a car on fire, and they snatch the door open and pull somebody out. Well, when you join the Black Panther Party, you’re basically doing that. You’re basically putting yourself between the police dog and the police and the citizen, and you’re showing Black people how to defend themselves and define themselves. And hands down, nobody’s done what we did. Nobody did it before then. Nobody’s done it since. Garvey has still on record the largest political organization of Black people in America, but he did not interface; he did not defend the masses of Black people. He did not educate them so they could defend themselves. He did not provide them any kind of short-term programs, but he was building a 21 �nation overseas. But again, the Panther Party members, my comrades, are the most courageous people that [00:37:00] I’ve ever met. JJ: You mentioned something important now. You said that he did not educate them so they could defend themselves. So, the Panther Party, was that one of their missions? WD: Well, I’m not sure. The Black Panther Party originated in 1960 as the Black Panther Party for Self-Defense. Right now, I’m a member of the Illinois Chapter history project, and that’s given me an opportunity to communicate with members of the original central staff of the Black Panther Party to learn and understand how the Black Panther Party came into being, its principles, its practices. And so, to your point, the Black Panther Party originally was the Black Panther Party for Self-Defense. It was responding to police brutality and oppression in the east Oakland area, which is not uncommon, which was not uncommon in Chicago, Boston, [00:38:00] Atlanta. In every Black community, we’ve had some kind of conflict where the police were trying to suppress the masses of Black people, so I think that self-defense is the primary human right. After 400 years of overt oppression and slavery, the question is, when they marched in Memphis, they had signs that says, “We are men.” We’re still trying to assert our humanity 400 years after the fact, and we’re still battling the same battles against racism that we’ve always battled, and it’s not going away. So, for the police to be a tool of oppression, Black Panther Party spoke for self-defense. They said, “We’re going to patrol. We’re going to make sure that if the brother’s wrong, he did a crime, you’re going to take him to jail, but you’re not going to break his head before he 22 �gets there,” and that’s how they started. So, in Chicago, we had conflicts with [00:39:00] the police as well. They were brutal. They subjected to take you in on a traffic stop and beat you up, extort money from you, and my father’s friend has suffered that indignity. I was aware that I’d been harassed as a young man, driving my father’s new car. JJ: Your father told you that he had been beaten up or -- WD: Friends, his friends and associates, they’ve talked of past stories, many stories about that. We still -- JJ: Like white groups or vigilante groups or -- WD: We’re just talking about interfacing with the police. JJ: Oh the police. WD: There were cases in terms of, I talked about how Blacks were not able to live in certain communities until the whites moved out. And so, as one Black would move on the block, then you’d be subject to harassment from whites who didn’t think Blacks should be there. [00:40:00] And so, there were stories that I overheard of how you would have to call back and have your neighbors, your old neighbors come and your family members come, and literally in one case, surround your house, showing your weapons, and let the locals know that you’re going to live here and you’re going to live here and defend your house because you have a right to do so. And that’s ahead of the Black Panther Party. That’s local Black citizens asserting themselves. And so, again, this is all part of what I’m aware of as a young man. And again, as it comes time to fill out that Selective Service card and join the Army, I’m not doing it. It was a big leap in a 23 �short period of time, but it made all the sense in the world for me to join the Black Panther Party. I was familiar with Black fraternities on campus, I went to Chicago State College at the time; [00:41:00] it’s now Chicago State University, and they had a big presence. They had Kappas; they had Sigmas; they had Alphas, and none of them had progressive programs for the Black community, and none of them interacted with high school students. None of them interacted with the local community. Even at that time, Englewood was a poorer community. It was still middle class, but it was lower middle class in terms of income, and it was a big issue between being money poor and values poor. In the ’60s, all Black people basically had the same values. As time has gone by, there’s been a shift in values across the country and in our community, which is why young people are disrespectful, which is why young people don’t have respect for life, which is why they shoot randomly, which is why they talk poorly, why they don’t show any love for their children or themselves. But that’s a whole nother issue. [00:42:00] The point I’m making is that there were some changes in the world, and the party had a place in all of that. JJ: So, now you’re a member of the party. What’s your volunteer? What kind of volunteering were you doing? WD: Well, initially everyone in the party sold newspapers and worked in the breakfast program, based on your abilities and your -- JJ: The first step was -- WD: The first step was newspapers and then -- JJ: -- sold newspapers and worked in the Breakfast for Children program? 24 �WD: Right. I think probably the Breakfast for Children program even before newspapers because that way, we had to be there at probably -- what was that -like five o’clock in the morning to be there to handle the children, open up the facility, prepare the food. JJ: Where was the breakfast program ran? WD: I worked in Madden Park, which is [00:43:00] basically 37th and Indiana, no, not Indiana; it’s closer to Cottage Grove. And there was one; the initial program was at Better Boys Foundation, but I didn’t go to that because I was the South Side. They gave me some leeway. JJ: Was that in the Better Boys Foundation? WD: Yeah, it was actually in the Better Boys Foundation. So, as I understand -- JJ: I think they’re located around Kedzie. WD: Yeah, they’re Kedzie. They’re 1500 South on Kedzie. In the first six months or so, I think we probably had four programs going. Again, I was just at Madden Park. And just like in any other organization, you kind of know the work you did, and you know the people you’re working with. You don’t necessarily know everything that was going on in that organization. I wasn’t -- JJ: You were doing what, dishes and (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? WD: We did dishes. [00:44:00] We served kids. You might have a turn to cook. They find you couldn’t cook, you didn’t cook again, but you know, food preparation or serving the children or cleanup or security, any combination of those things. JJ: Was there any interaction with the kids? 25 �WD: Yeah. There was some conversation and talk. There was politicizing that you were letting them know what was going on, who was doing this, why we were doing it. In some cases, you might engage in a conversation and find out why a child would be coming to breakfast. We didn’t make a requirement that they fill out a form based on their income. We didn’t ask them how much money they had. They showed up; they were hungry; they got fed. It wasn’t a social center, but it was a social service to them. At that time, there were no free programs of the sort in the country. No federal, no state institutions were feeding children in the morning. [00:45:00] This is before Head Start. This is before free lunch programs. This is before free eye testing. The only thing that was going on comparable to what the Panther Party did was free immunizations. They were giving kids like shots for whooping cough and measles and that kind of stuff. That was free, because I went. My mother took me down, and I got those shots. But the breakfast program, that kind of stuff, dental care, none of that was going on in 1968, 1969, 1970, didn’t exist. JJ: How did you raise money for the breakfast program, and what methods were used for that? WD: One of the people who joined shortly after I did was Wanda Ross, and she was given the task of setting up the breakfast program. We would get instructions from [00:46:00] the coast. We would get instructions in terms of what party programs and what initiatives should be undertaken. And then we would have to carry those things out. So, Wanda Ross was responsible for coordinating, setting up the program and coordinating the program, meaning that she managed to 26 �create a methodology by which she solicited donations, cash money, or food. She helped set up locations, and she helped distribute the food to the locations. The money that she collected for the food for the breakfast program went to purchase supplies for the program. JJ: You said these were donations? WD: These were donations. JJ: So, did they have like (inaudible)? WD: They actually had to set up a not-for-profit organization in order to take the checks and process this money. The money did not go to the Black Panther Party. [00:47:00] It went directly to the not-for-profit organization. It was chartered by the State of Illinois. It was called Free Services, Inc., and Wanda still has those documents to this day. JJ: Now, are these meetings with people with money, basically what I’m saying, they’re meeting in people’s houses? Are these fundraisers, or are these like collections that are done on the ground? I remember more like what Lucy Montgomery, to her house, we (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) WD: The collection of funds happened on many different levels. At each rally, we talked about the programs that we had initiated, and we asked people to make contributions. In [00:48:00] parallel to that, individuals who registered at party programs would sponsor meet-and-greets at their homes. JJ: Meet-and-greets, they were called? WD: Right. JJ: I think they called them coffees. 27 �WD: Right, coffees, whatever, the meet-and-greets, where you go, and somebody would have a social gathering. JJ: They were called meet-and-greets? WD: I believe so. And people who were interested in supporting the party, contributing to the party would be in attendance, and party members would go and mix with the crowd and hopefully leave with donations. (audio cuts out) were in attendance who would donate to parties, party chapters all across the country anonymously because they couldn’t afford to be directly associated with the party because the government was trying to suppress us. I didn’t participate in any of those type of fundraisers. I do know, in cases where Model Cities grants, Model Cities was this City of Chicago program, and they took money from the [00:49:00] Model Cities program and gave that to the gang members. They were using that money for job training for gang members, and that’s part of what happened with the gangs in terms of them establishing a more prominence and a more independence. They saw the money, and they went to work to secure it, and they turned that money into something else for themselves. JJ: So, Model Cities was giving the gang members money. WD: Mm-hmm, through the Model Cities. JJ: It was also creating urban renewal. (inaudible) WD: Yes, which is why -- think about Model Cities. I talked about the expansion of Black people living in Chicago on the South Side. So, they spread from the Black Belt, which was south of the Loop, 35th and Cottage Grove, east and west to State Street to the lake, and they moved southward, so 43rd Street, 47th Street 28 �[00:50:00] Regal Theater was a hub of activity, was a hub of the Black Belt, up to 51st Street and Grand Boulevard. That was a solid Black community all through the ’30s and ’40s. The Regal Theater has its own fame. Forty-seventh Street and South Center was just a hub of activity. It was like Harlem. And as Blacks moved further south into Woodlawn, again, my parents talk about 63rd and Cottage Grove being a borderline. You couldn’t go west of Cottage; you couldn’t go south of 63rd Street. So, my parents eventually were able to live at 67th and Evans, which is just across the border, so again, another expansion. Well, that’s Woodlawn. In the ’60s, it’s alleged that the gangs, in conjunction with the University of Chicago and all this Model Cities thing, we talk about urban renewal, ran the Black property owners [00:51:00] out of Woodlawn, burn them out, terrorize them, whatever, gang activity. Now you’re talking about destabilizing community. The Blackstone Rangers, which were created on -well, they had to pick a name, so they were on Blackstone, so they called themselves the Blackstone Rangers, and that gang, in conjunction with this money and some other issues -JJ: They were working with the University of Chicago. WD: Well, it served the University of Chicago. University of Chicago was -- JJ: But there was arson going on. Is that what you mean? WD: That’s right. JJ: Was there arson going on? WD: There was probably arson going on. There was a lot of slumlords at that time. JJ: You said that they ran the property owners out. 29 �WD: They did. The area between 60 -- JJ: How did they do that? How would they do that? WD: Through intimidation. JJ: You know people that were intimidated? WD: I do not. I don’t know anybody who was [00:52:00] directly intimidated, but the stories continue. You could see the gang -- JJ: This was stories that existed at that time. WD: Right. JJ: In the newspaper or just -- WD: In the newspaper and in the grapevine, and probably TWO will have a better reference of that as well. TWO was a community-based organization that was trying to counter the gang activity to some degree to stabilize the community. They ended up being more of the current landowners for this region south of University of Chicago. JJ: So, they became the landowners. WD: After about four years, they began to buy this land. Woodlawn has only started being rebuilt in the last 20 years. For 30 years, Woodlawn was as barren as Roosevelt Road was after the King riots. But the King riots took Roosevelt Road out, west of Circle, Circle to Western. The riots, they burned all that [00:53:00] property down. But Woodlawn was depleted over a period of years because the University of Chicago wanted to control -- they wanted to create a buffer for themselves. University of Chicago created a buffer, no housing between 61st Street and 63rd Street. Numerous properties, multi-unit buildings were just razed, 30 �torn down, so you could almost see from 63rd Street to 61st Street, a buffer around the University of Chicago. The University of Chicago was given the right to change -- they weren’t restricted by any building codes. They had no limitations. They could redesign the area any way they wanted to if the Mayor Daley and the city council gave them that right to do an urban study in that region. So, up until the last 20 years, they had not even redeveloped that area, sitting on the land, but there is evidence that the gangs were complicit [00:54:00] in destabilizing the community and running out the few local property owners there were. JJ: You’re saying that they got monies from Model Cities. WD: They got money from Model Cities to train, to give the membership -- JJ: Job training? WD: Job training and education and the rest of the stuff, but there’s not a lot of evidence that they had jobs after that. JJ: So, they had job training, but there was no jobs. WD: Right. JJ: But the significant thing is that Model Cities was connected with urban renewal. WD: Right. There was a connection between -- JJ: And Mayor Daley. WD: Yep. JJ: And they also gave money to the gangs. WD: Yes. 31 �JJ: That’s the significant thing. In the community or the newspapers and the grapevine, it is being said that the property owners were being evicted, or being terrorized, [00:55:00] rather than being evicted, by the gangs. Is that what you’re saying? WD: When Black people tried to move beyond the boundaries of their communities, the biggest fear that white people had was that their property values were going to plummet. So, if you have, in your streets, a group of young people who are not being held in check by the law, who are running criminal activities, who are intimidating locals, if there’s arson or if there’s just a lack of police response, if they’re destabilizing your community and your tenants are moving out, your property values are going down. And at some point, you want to sell or get out of the area to protect yourself and protect your values. So, you know, the reality is what the reality is. Now, you may not be able to show [00:56:00] who was doing what when, and then again, you might be able to find that out now because now after 50 years, there’s a lot of history out here, so some of these activities have been documented. JJ: During that time, you’re growing up in a segregated situation; racism exists, but now the Panthers are beginning to work with (inaudible). Were you there when they had the Rainbow Coalition, or had you heard of the Rainbow Coalition at that time, or did you come later? WD: The point about the Panthers was that -- JJ: Because that was 1969, but when did you join the party? WD: I joined the party in 1968. I am what you call a short-timer. 32 �JJ: Okay. What does that mean? WD: I joined in 1968, let’s say, officially when the chapter opened its headquarters in November. Through the winter, [00:57:00] breakfast programs and other activities, we began to hear stories about agents and provocateurs. We began to hear that we were going to -- JJ: What kind of stories? What do you mean? WD: Well, there was evidence from the coast and other chapters who had been established before us that the police and the FBI were infiltrating, and they were trying to destabilize us. So, that kind of worked under my confidence to a certain degree because we couldn’t, at some point, be sure who was an agent and who was not an agent. So, in some cases, if there was someone from your community that joined when you joined and you knew their background, you could vouch for one another, but very soon, you had individuals who had no ties, and so they became suspect. So, the COINTELPRO worked on these kind of insecurities to undermine us. JJ: What do you mean? WD: Well, if [00:58:00] you allege that there’s a traitor in your ranks and you can’t identify him, then you become suspicious. Then there’s trust issues that you have with people who were not what they say they were or who appear not to be what they are. Then you have people who, in fact, later on, through depositions and other statements, identified themselves as government agents in court testimony. 33 �JJ: Okay, so now you have government agents, and then you also have this distrust going around. And that was part of the COINTELPRO? WD: It was all part of COINTELPRO. JJ: And did that do anything to the party? WD: It destabilized us to a great degree. We had, in my short time, and like I said, I joined in November; I separated in July of 1969 while Fred was in jail [00:59:00] pending appeal on the so-called ice cream conviction. JJ: And you separated why? WD: Well, at that time, there was a problem with leadership. There was a problem with direction and focus. Now, in hindsight, when the party opened in 1968, J. Edgar Hoover and the FBI already had a plan in the works on how to destroy the Black Panther Party. So, when we opened our doors, they were ready for us, and we had no idea who they were and what they were bringing. We were new Panthers, a new chapter. We didn’t have seasoned veterans from anyplace else. We were all local, developing the programs as we heard, developing our understanding of the party platform and the party programs. So, it’s not like getting somebody with experience battling the FBI. [01:00:00] We didn’t know what we were up against. And it so happened that the progression of COINTELPRO, progression of Hoover and company was that they were going to eradicate the Black Panther Party by any means necessary, and it all culminated in about 18 months. In 1969, when Fred Hampton was murdered, that was part of a nationwide sweep of the FBI to eliminate the Black Panther Party by eliminating leadership. Prior to that, the infiltrators, the provocateurs, particularly 34 �William O’Neal, who, you would be in the car with him, trying to go get newspapers or go handle some regular business, he said, “Well, you know, we ought to take out that store there. He’s a capitalist. We should just go in there and rob him, raise some money for the people.” Fortunately, he wasn’t driving, so the driver said, “We were told to do this and this, and we’re not stopping for that bullshit.” George Sams [01:01:00] was an instigator. JJ: Were you in the car when that happened? WD: I was not with O’Neal, but I heard directly from people who were with O’Neal who would do that stuff. JJ: So, he was already suspect. WD: Well, he possessed a certain form of madness, and so you just say, “Well, this is a crazy guy. We just know better.” JJ: There were some crazy guys in the movement. WD: A lot of people were crazy to be in the Black Panther Party. JJ: Because you had some street people in the (inaudible). WD: We had plenty of street people. JJ: So, some of them were panicked, talking crazy anyway, because we had them in the Young Lords (inaudible). WD: (laughs) I just don’t want to say that it was street people only, because here’s the thing. I might’ve been a college student, right? And the Black Panther Party was not unlike joining the Army, meaning that you’re thrown in there with a lot of different people from different walks of life. So, we began a rich mix between street, middle class, college, working class, [01:02:00] and in and amongst all 35 �that, you had to be a little crazy to go up against the United States government and demand your rights, but there was some people who were more foolish or more adventurous than others. JJ: “Adventurous” is the word. WD: And leadership would tell us to quash that adventurism, follow the party line, which is why we read Mao, because he offered his discipline and instruction. And I’m told that the Illinois Chapter was -- JJ: You’re saying you took them straight out of the -- WD: We took quotes from the Red Book, and we applied them as best we could. JJ: Military Writings? WD: Military Writings. The Military Writings was a separate document from the Red Book, also (inaudible). There’s a whole I don't know how many volumes of writings that Mao had, but we did use the Military Writings of Chairman Mao, and we used the Red Book as examples of how to be disciplined. The Black Panther Party had 26 rules to follow for membership, in addition [01:03:00] to the 10-point program and platform, no drugs, no alcohol, no theft from the people, just a whole litany of behaviors that we were supposed to follow to be a member, in addition to the 10-point program and platform, and again, the study and the discussions which made sure that people were not just hanging out. You had to be able to know the party line and express the party line. I came to the understanding that through my studies, the concepts of guerilla war, that any party member should be able to set up a chapter, set up the programs, politicize, propagandize, and carry the message forward. That was my understanding, so 36 �when I separated in July, then I took that concept with me every place else I went. And we found that there were many people [01:04:00] emulating the Black Panther Party who were not members, who had never joined but who were eager, or eager and willing to follow those guidelines, because at the time, we were known as the Vanguard Party. JJ: So, you’re doing all this studying, and you have the -- my question was, as you expand to other communities, and you’re also looking to raise some money in that. WD: The bigger concept of the Black Panther Party was that capitalism was a major issue, that capitalism, in addition to racism, perpetuated poverty in the Black community and that exploitation by the capitalists, exploitation by the businesses and industry was really a bigger issue that all people in the country had to deal with. So, I’m not sure where the concept [01:05:00] or why it was felt necessary to reach out beyond the Black community, but the notion that all poor people were being oppressed by the same government, by the same industry brough about the basis for the Rainbow Coalition because at some point, it was proven and shown and discovered that you had poor whites; you had poor Hispanics, Mexicans, Puerto Ricans; you had Native Americans, who were all being oppressed by the same government, and so at that point, it was only reasonable that a coalition among oppressed groups would be a stronger front against the government. And out of that, I think, is where the Rainbow Coalition happened. JJ: But now, these groups were already functioning as organizations. 37 �WD: My understanding was that the Young Patriots was already established. Young Lords Organization was an established group. JJ: But these were already established groups. WD: Right. [01:06:00] JJ: And so, they came together with the Panthers. WD: They came in coalition with the Panthers. JJ: Coalition, an alliance or a coalition. WD: Like an alliance, but -- JJ: Was it an organization, or was it an alliance? WD: It was more of a collaboration. It was more an alliance. We did have a mandate unspoken. When we would have white people try to join or participate in Black Panther Party, we would tell them to go to your neighborhoods, go to your communities, go to your parents, go to your families, and organize there, and fight racism in your community. JJ: And actually, that’s what the Young Lords also, the Young Patriots, we went into our community to organize our communities. In fact, that was like a mandate. WD: That was the methodology. JJ: I mean, is that what you’re saying? Because I’m not -- WD: Yeah. In order to defeat the bigger enemy, which was capitalism, and oppression of poor people, was to organize in your own communities. JJ: Because you would [01:07:00] naturally know the people better. WD: You know, the Black Panther Party, in each locale, was indigenous. We were products or our localities. We had specific issues in one region, different from 38 �another region. The Illinois Chapter of the Black Panther Party had branches in southern Illinois, in Rockford, and in each of those little locations, Peoria, Illinois, there were specific issues that had to be addressed by party members there. We had one chapter -JJ: But each neighborhood, each locale was different? WD: To a degree, right. JJ: To a degree. I mean, there was a general agreement with each locale, the same conditions in place, like Mao was saying. WD: Right, same conditions in place. So, we spoke to local needs with a bigger, with a global aspect. We were one of the first ones to think globally and act globally. [01:08:00] The Black Panther Party was one of the first organizations, national organization, that recognized what you would call today as multiculturalism, through Huey’s inter-communalism. We supported gays. We supported anybody who’s being oppressed by the government, by the capitalists. And again, we operated locally, but we thought nationally. JJ: Since many people are growing up in a city that’s segregated, was it easy to make this coalition, or were there some sticking points there? WD: Well, you know, when the boot is on your neck, you want the boot off. That was one of the things, and then Fred became a great orator and talked about these kind of concepts and said, “You want some relief,” and so if getting with the Panthers and getting with whoever is going to get this off you, then you would do that. [01:09:00] And so, by practice, we were able to explain and show people that racism, there was no place for that. It was used to divide people. And we 39 �showed them that we were willing to work with them even if they might not have been initially willing to work with us. We gave them tools to understand their circumstance. One of the points of the party program is that we want education that exposes the true nature of society and teaches us our true place in this society. Well, having going through Fanon, and we knew out history; we knew ourselves to be descendants of slaves, descendants of free people from Africa, and we were entitled to better. So, we understood our relationship with the government. We understood our relationship with industry, with business, whereas unfortunately white people probably felt that if they worked hard enough on the assembly line, they would become chairman of the board at some point. Well, we don’t know that that [01:10:00] really existed for them any more than it existed for us. And certainly in 1968, we didn’t have too many Black chairmans of the board. So, it became easier and easier to get other groups of people to understand the concept of economical pressure and focus on that as opposed to racial or social differences. JJ: But it was understood that people had to struggle against racism. In other words, it wasn’t, “We’re just going to come together and overcome; we should overcome.” WD: No. JJ: “We need to deal with certain issues here.” There is racism. WD: I guess what you call the dialectical approach. JJ: Am I putting words in your -- 40 �WD: No. There was (audio cuts out) racism exists. It’s still a debate today as to which element is more important, racism or economics. If everything else was equal economically, then you have your prejudices anyway. Now, [01:11:00] the big thing about racism is the ability to suppress, oppress, deny freedoms to another individual, based on the fact that you can identify him through a physical trait that he’s not in control of, which is race. We can’t do that to white people, so for Black people to be leery of white folks, to be suspicious of white people, to want to be free of their control is not racism. We just don’t have that power, and in any case that I can think of in history, we didn’t do that. But definitely, racism was to be overcome by all those people who were -- they were to deal with it. They were to cope with it and understand that it did exist. We didn’t eradicate racism through the Rainbow Coalition. JJ: Started running it down. What was the [01:12:00] main thing that you felt about the party in Illinois that had an impact, and where? What was the impact in terms of community? WD: One of the most dynamic factors of the Illinois Chapter of the Black Panther Party was that we were young people who were knowledgeable, who were highly motivated. To a great extent, we were articulate. We were able to explain our position. We were able to debate the topics of the day and offer solutions and alternatives. Through the [structure?] of Black Panther Party, we were a network before “networking” was a phrase. You hear the quote that 43 chapters and 3 international sections meant that we had a reach. We had a national newspaper. [01:13:00] We just had a presence that was unlike any other organization at the 41 �time. And our goal was not self-serving. We weren’t trying to establish ourselves as the supreme power of Black people; we were tools. We were -- what’s the quote (inaudible)? We were oxen to be ridden by the people down the road to social revolution. JJ: The oxen for the people to ride. WD: We were here to serve the people, and that’s the way we functioned. JJ: Revolutionary is the oxen for the people to ride. WD: Revolutionaries are the oxen for the people to ride down the road to social revolution. JJ: Anything that you want to add that we haven’t discussed yet, any major points? [01:14:00] How was the effect of the murder of Fred on the (inaudible) party? How did that affect the party (inaudible)? WD: The Illinois Chapter was -- JJ: Did it keep running or -- WD: Illinois Chapter existed and functioned through 1976, I believe, which is seven years after the murder of Fred Hampton. As I was saying earlier, the FBI had already planned to destroy the Black Panther Party in total, all chapters. That was their mandate. That was a goal of theirs. JJ: So, you’re saying all chapters. Would that include the Patriots and the Young Lords? WD: It probably did. Well, through what I’ve read from COINTELPRO, those documents show clearly that they were trying to suppress [01:15:00] all groups that they deemed subversive. That included, in Chicago, we had the Red Squad, 42 �and they were going to block club meetings, church meetings, anything civil rights oriented. They did not want the Black community to organize, and so the Young Lords, anyone who was politically astute, anyone who was politically motivated who would run counter in Chicago to the Daley machine was going to be a target. And I’m certain the Young Lords were. Even SDS was an issue. And Hoover, the COINTELPRO comes out of the McCarthy era. COINTELPRO goes all the way back to 1920-something when they created the FBI. So, this issue of suppressing subversives or people who would [01:16:00] destabilize the government or be a threat to the government internally is longstanding. The Panthers didn’t invent that, but we were the focal point of it. We were like that perfect storm. We just kind of met them when they were developing where they are now. And again, like I was saying earlier, if we had no-fly zones, we couldn’t have gotten on airplanes, but we would’ve gone everywhere in cars. JJ: Do you recall Reverend Bruce Johnson and Eugenia Johnson, who were the pastors of the Young Lords Church? WD: I’m not familiar with them. JJ: Okay, because he was stabbed 17 times, and his wife 9 times, and this was only 30 days before Fred Hampton was murdered. WD: I wasn’t aware of that. JJ: And another reverend that was at that church that was transferred, that People’s Church, the Young Lords Church, was transferring to Los Angeles, was also murdered in that time. So, this was all during the same period. 43 �WD: Well, here. To the extent that [01:17:00] we have the testimony of William O'Neal explaining his activities and his intentions, even -- JJ: He went to Young the Lords Church, William O’Neal (inaudible). WD: See, well, my point is this, that the type of people that the US government recruits to do their work, proven out even in modern-day times, these people will do whatever they’re paid to do. So, you can get what we’ll call a hyper person who’s addicted to drugs to do all kinds of things to get his drugs. You know, William O’Neal was trying to become a member of the FBI, so they kept promising him that, and he thought in his own mind, he would become a member. But the FBI knew he was just a tool. So, he was willing to do anything he could to get into the FBI. The problem with agent provocateurs and instigators is that you don’t know how far they’ll go until maybe they’ll just turn out to be [01:18:00] assassins, and that’s the danger. You really can’t tell. This cop that was bending over Malcolm X infiltrated the Black Panther Party years later. We have agents of the US government who have infiltrated Black organizations over the years, and they keep using the same tactic again and again and again, infiltration, destabilization. So, again, the government had decided to end the Black Panther Party. JJ: Infiltration, destabilization, what do you mean destabilization? WD: Well, if you get a person in the organization who is a provocateur, who is a subversive agent inside the organization, they’re stealing money, if they’re disruptive, if they’re saboteurs. JJ: They’re instigating? 44 �WD: Yeah, they’re instigating. [01:19:00] They will destabilize as long as they keep some shit going. They’re disruptive, just in any number of things that they could do to keep you from doing party work and being responsible. JJ: So, they’re went on until 1976, the Panthers. WD: Yeah, the Illinois Chapter. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) and everything, they were going out? WD: Well, here’s an important thing about the party. They started as the Black Panther Party for Self-Defense, became an international organization. I’ve learned from party members who were in Algiers that the international section in Algiers actually became the US Embassy because the United States government did not recognize the Algerian government after independence, so there were Americans on the ground in Algiers, much like you’ve explained to me that the Young Lords Organization was an organization for all Hispanics. They had Puerto Ricans, Mexicans, Cubans. You spoke Spanish, you could have a place in the Young Lords because [01:20:00] nobody else offered a voice for that. So, as the Black Panther Party grew and developed over time, its tactics, its vision, its understanding of the world changed, and the programs changed, and the directives changed over time. As the government absorbed our activities, as the government established free breakfast programs, established health clinics in our communities, then it was no longer necessary for the Black Panther Party to have those same programs. Early, before Huey Newton went to jail, he had run for local government, so the party eventually got back to electoral politics, and in reality, there came a time when the party wasn’t necessary anymore. When they 45 �were far away from being an institution for self-defense, by trying to run as elected officials and create more programs to fill the gaps that the government or city founders had left open, [01:21:00] it just wasn’t the same organization anymore and should rightfully have just ceased to exist. JJ: But you had Bobby Seale running for mayor in Oakland at the time. So, you’re not saying that it should cease to exist because they got into electoral politics? WD: No. It’s just that the type of organization and the reason it was established, those conditions changed. Many times, people ask me, what would the Panthers do now? What would our focus be? What would our issues be? A lot of them are similar, but we would go at it a whole nother way. I think for Bobby Seale or any other party member to run for public office is a good thing because you want to have a person with that type of knowledge and background in a position to make decisions, to influence other politicians, to be present in the room at least to speak out against things. So, any situation, whether it’s a block [01:22:00] club or a church choir, it’s better to have a person with some consciousness in that room to help make those decisions, to help guide that group. JJ: And my understanding was that there was also an organizing tool or something, a campaign. WD: Certainly. Jesse Jackson, Sr. ran for president, and he got 600,000 votes. Well, that meant the 600,000 people believed in what he said. But he also indicated he had no intention of winning the election, but it allowed him to talk about issues that the other politicians weren’t going to bring up. That helps feed the public consciousness. That helps build awareness, which is also what we did by raising 46 �the contradictions between our reality and what the government said reality was. That was another tool of the Black Panther Party, to raise the contradictions between what is and what was. JJ: Ok, any final thoughts? WD: If I had to do it again, I would join the Black Panther Party. [01:23:00] There’s a lot that’s wrong with the world. Everybody can do something to make it better. Find out what you can do that, and make it a better place. END OF VIDEO FILE 47 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/26ba3eb92bd4eaa0a6d46d3721ef3fc7.mp4 48e1f2437f67b3827c83eea7b8dc36ef Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry William E. Dunbar vídeo entrevista y biografía Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Afro-Americanos--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Hampton, Fred, 1948-1969 Partido Pantera Negra. Illinois Capítulo Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Dunbar_William Title A name given to the resource William E. Dunbar video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dunbar, William Description An account of the resource Billy Dunbar is a member of the Chicago Illinois Chapter of the Black Panther Party for Self-Defense (BPP). He is from the south side of Chicago. He keeps up with all the political events related to the BPP and the Rainbow Coalition, including the era of their origins. Mr. Dunbar is also a founding member of the Illinois BPP History Project, which is currently conducting oral histories to document the Chicago Chapter, so that the work of their members is not forgotten. Their project also wants the public to remember the impact that BPP Chairman Fred Hampton not only had on the African American community but on other communities of color and the poor. Mr. Dunbar is also a businessman. Today he owns a copy center.Chicago BPP Chairman Fred Hampton and BPP member Mark Clark were murdered in a predawn raid on December 4, 1969. Prior to his death, Mr. Hampton started a Rainbow Coalition, which was nurtured by Bobby Lee. The original members included the Young Patriots, a group of Hillbillies or southern whites from the Uptown neighborhood of Chicago of whom many had migrated from Appalachia and other southern areas, and the Young Lords from Lincoln Park. The Young Lords first met Fred Hampton at John Boelter’s and Ralph Rivera’s home and joined the Rainbow Coalition directly through Fred Hampton. Bobby Lee who was the BPP Field Marshall then began working more directly with José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez and the Young Lords in Lincoln Park. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) African Americans--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Hampton, Fred, 1948-1969 Black Panther Party. Illinois Chapter Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-07-15 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f984020c70b3d6b0971da4f66e2d0d8f.m4v 815520a468ece51c46b046a6e04878ed https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/53fed3dca765b37e1efe8e51249a3e01.pdf 6f4ad8796fe0dcb132ffe77d4736c79a PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Vietnam War Patrick Lee Duncan Length of Interview (0:59:48) Background: (0:00:08)  Born May 23rd, 1947 in Mayville, Michigan  Graduated from high school in 1965, played all four major sports  Enrolled at Ferris State University, supposed to begin classes in September of 1966  Was drafted August 30th, but could not go to school instead because he was not already beginning college  He had a brother and a sister, his brother was married at the time (0:01:49) o Brother was upset that Duncan was going because he was the youngest Enlistment: Training: (0:02:03)  Reported to Fort Wayne in Detroit o Took a train, remembers it being very long because of a train wreck up ahead, to Fort Knox, Kentucky o Was on the train for 4 hours, with no air conditioning, remembers it being hot o When they got to Kentucky, they were told it was full, and they were going to have to go to Fort Lewis, Washington (0:02:32) o Boarded a plane and flew to Washington for basic training  The company, mostly from Michigan, was never given any leave because they were so far from home  Remembers being severely harassed by the drill instructors, who were airborne o Wanted to make sure Echo company would be the best company ever o Did end up coming in first place o They were the “Echo Rattlers, strike hard, strike fast, kill”  Was talked into another year of the military instead of doing anything else before he even began basic training o Was in for 3 years and 12 days (0:03:55)  Went into Helicopters, trained in Aircraft Armament  Drill Instructors would look at the serial number, his was RA5 o He was told he had a life expectancy of about 10 seconds  After basic training he went to AIT (0:04:53) o It was too close to Christmas to get leave, so they were sent off to AIT training instead o AIT stands for Advanced Individual Training o Went to Aberdeen Proving Grounds in Maryland  While in Aberdeen, learned all about arming an aircraft and helicopters  Vietnam had just started, and the new Cobra gunships were not over there yet o The Delta model (0:05:23)  Needed a gunner and a crew-chief, along with a pilot and co-pilot o Learned how to wire a system on a helicopter �   o Were taught advanced knowledge in case they were ever put into a situation where they needed to work on advanced machinery  Did come in handy later in the war o 5 months at AIT  Liked to party, and had a good time Transferred to Fort Bragg in North Carolina (0:06:01) o Assigned to the 18th or 13th Airborne division o Right next door to the “Golden Knights” o Attached to an air support group  Worked more on advanced helicopters o Spent the summer down in Fort Bragg o Got special orders from Washington to be sent immediately to Fort Lewis, Washington  Wanted leave, had only had a short Christmas leave, so they processed him in 2 days  Got 7 shots in one day, then was given pills for a fever he would get from the shots (0:07:19)  Got a 13 day leave after being processed Got a plane out to Washington o Put on KP while at the processing center there, worked with the guys who were coming back from Vietnam o Made a few good friends, left Fort Lewis on a 17 hour flight to Japan  Landed in Cam Ranh Bay  While at the processing center had KP and guard duty  At that point was a PFC, and so got stuck with a lot of chores  Remembers being scared to death his first guard duty Next day got orders to go to Chu Lai o Remembers thinking it looked like a nice place, not too bad o Assigned to the 14th Aviation Battalion, part of the 1st Aviation Brigade Enlistment: Vietnam: (0:09:44)  First night in Chu Lai, was involved in combat o Mortar attack o The next morning they were told they were lucky, they were going to Duc Pho  His commander told him it was considered the only “Field Helicopters” base in Vietnam  Asked if it was like Chu Lai, and was told it was nothing like Chu Lai o Got on a helicopter and flew to Duc Pho  The total perimeter in Duc Pho was only a mile in circumference o Supporting the 4th infantry brigade (0:10:37) o Took care of all the helicopters on the flight line  4 gunships, called the Sharks  Gunships explained  Missions were throughout the day, at least one mission a day (0:13:25) o Flew rarely, only when gunships were scrambled  Sleeping arrangements were all tents �             o Wood floors, wood showers (0:14:22) Built “Hooches”; explained Duc Pho was hit quite a lot by mortars o 3-4 times a week at night, not usually during the day Near a small native village o Go to the orphanage and give the kids some candy February of that year, there were a lot of peace talks o Couldn’t shoot on the helicopters that were spotted o Started getting hit all the time, but mostly the villages surrounding (0:18:43) o Supported the group that committedd the My Lai Massacre o Had both North Vietnamese and Viet Cong forces in their area Went to some of the small villages and killed over 500 enemies (0:22:45) o Does not know if that was considered a massacre o Afterwards things got a little quieter For entertainment, occasionally a band from the Philippines would play o Would play cards and drink Went 30 days one time eating only beef and rice because the flight line was cut off o Took him 25 years before he could eat rice again One day they were scrambled and he had to fly (0:27:12) o Went up north, still south of Da Nang o Opened up on a dark spot on the hill and chaos broke loose o Called in Marine air support o Got hit, the ship jarred, fuel was pouring out o Stopped the pilot from shooting off rockets so they wouldn’t blow up o The helicopter was later in a museum in Kalamazoo Talks about improvising a heat device to warm up the armaments shack (0:32:55) o The monsoon season lasted a month or so Talks about the North Vietnamese propaganda lady Was in Duc Pho a total of 366 days (0:36:45) Had his R&R in Japan, was treated extremely well (0:37:22) One in-country R&R (0:38:38) o Very peaceful there Enlistment: Discharge (0:39:49)  Was talk of extending his stay  His mother knew the congressman and that prevented his stay  Went back to Cam Ranh Bay o Threw everything away  Arrived at Fort Lewis, Washington  Stayed in Tacoma until everything was ready  Flew to Detroit and was picked up by his friends o They told him he couldn’t wear his uniform around there o His parents didn’t know he was flying o Surprised his parents when he returned home  Went back to work at General Motors �o Decided to go back to college after a year o Went to community college in Ann Arbor After Discharge: (0:44:04)  Joined the Veterans club at Eastern Michigan University o A friend of his, a Navy SEAL, during campus threats o Had Artillery Simulators in his trunk o Sound like a real artillery round, and the police never figured it out  Glad to be home, was individual rotation, so had a lot of friends still over there  Many years before he made any contact with them  Story about a medic (0:46:52) o Fell out of the ambulance and was run over, wasn’t hurt  Looking back, it was a great experience but one he doesn’t want to see again o Thinks every man should serve in the military o Felt really old when he came back compared to the ones going in  Supports the military, even if not the president o Believes the military should handle it, not the government o Believes the military won Vietnam, the government lost it  Got a college degree o Became a respiratory therapist  Expands on the flight line attack that left them without supplies (0:52:35)  Talks about the ships that were shot down (0:55:45)  Remarks about the role of the media in combat zones (0:59:03) � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Duncan, Patrick (Interview outline and video), 2009 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Duncan, Patrick Description An account of the resource Patrick Lee Duncan served in Vietnam in Duc Pho, working with aircraft armament. He was drafted because he had waited a year to attend college. After being discharged he went to college and became a respiratory therapist. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Brock, Rosemarie (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2009-11-03 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DuncanP Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f25f18ec3127a66a5c51dc2358edd16a.pdf 433d3ef38ed02248b16fd675d8e16e08 PDF Text Text COVID-19 Experience January 2020 I recall the first time ever hearing about the novel coronavirus. As a student at Grand Valley State University during my Junior year, I had the opportunity to partake in a course called “Fieldwork in Exercise Science”. This was not a typical college course in the way that each student was able to go out into the field they desire to pursue and observe the current professionals. I am pursuing physical therapy, so I was placed at Advent Physical Therapy in Grandville, Michigan. This particular day I was making my commute from my off-campus apartment in Allendale, Michigan to the clinic. I cannot remember the exact date, but it was sometime early in January 2020. My typical routine was to listen to the morning show of “Mojo in the Morning” on the radio station 104.5 SNX. Just as I pulled into the clinic parking lot, I heard them talking of this virus that supposedly came from China. This show was known for making people laugh with various jokes, so the virus at the time came off as another joke. They discussed how people were not going to want to drink the beer, Corona, in fear of contracting this “silly” disease. I walked into the clinic and asked the physical therapists there if they had heard about this disease. They proceeded to tell me they had and that they were not too worried about its effects. Again, kind of like the radio, we all sort of laughed it off. In the few weeks that passed after the initial announcement, I heard very little about the virus. Spring forward to Grand Valley’s spring break March 2-6. I did not have a trip planned this year, so I went back home to Davison, Michigan which is located on the east side of the state, about 20 minutes from Flint. My family members discussed the virus casually, nothing too seriously, but came to the conclusion that it is nothing to worry about. I watched my friends on social media travel all throughout the world, although most went to Florida. The next week, I returned to my apartment in Allendale ready to tackle the rest of the semester. On Monday March 9, 2020, buzz started floating around the physical therapy clinic and throughout my college classes about the virus. It had been heard that there were some colleges around the United States that were cancelling in-person classes and transitioning to online learning for the remainder of the semester. Again, this was sort of a joke to us, but starting to become a reality that Grand Valley could do this. �Flash to Wednesday March 11, 2020. I was in the clinic when we got word that Michigan State University had made the decision to cancel classes and finish the remainder of the semester online. At this point, it was becoming more of a reality that Grand Valley could do the same. Later on that day, I went to class in Mackinac Hall. My professor, Danielle Terpstra, began class by showing us where online material would be found in the event that we transitioned online. We had a good 15-minute conversation including questions about how this all would happen. She shared with us that she only knew as much as we did, which was not nearly as much as I would have wanted. During this week, we had gotten several emails from different university departments and the president, Philomena Mantella. They all stated that they were in direct communication with the health department and assured us they were taking this very seriously. At this point in the week there were several other Michigan universities that had cancelled which lead me to believe Grand Valley was right behind them. Sure enough, later that day on March 11, Grand Valley sent out an email detailing their course of action. They had decided to cancel classes for the remainder of the week and begin on Monday March 16 remotely. I still think the severity of this virus had not set in. There were many students who thought this was unnecessary and more of an annoyance rather than a procedure put in place for our protection. Again, at this point I do not think much of Michigan understood the severity that we know to this day, including myself. The president, Donald Trump, started making recommendations not to congregate in larger masses. Eventually that dwindled down, to where we are today on April 20, 2020. We are told today not to interact with anyone we do not live with unless we are essential workers or must conduct essential business. It is also being recommended that if we must go out, we wear proper protection in the form of a mask. All of the non-essential businesses are closed which include: gyms, spas and salons, landscaping businesses, contractors (only emergency calls), and small local businesses just to name a few. Restaurants were also mandated to close their dining rooms, while still providing take out and delivery. Although this is true, there are many local restaurants in Davison and the surrounding areas that had to close due to financial struggles during this time. �My mother, Shawn Dunham, is deemed essential because she is the manager of Dort Financial Credit Union right here in Davison. At first, the credit union was open as usual for business which allowed anyone at any time to walk in and conduct their business. This frightened my mother and her employees, along with the rest of my family. There was no proper protection for the employees from the members and vice versa. Eventually, they closed their lobby down and required members to make an appointment to seen. They continued to conduct business, but just kept restricting the amount of people in the building. Today, there is a “sneeze guard” located at the reception desk and in two of the member service representatives. Do not be fooled, the sneeze guard was not as protective as you think. It was a clear shower curtain hanging from the ceiling, but I suppose it was better than nothing. There are now procedures in place that require the members to state their reasoning for an appointment. In the event that it can be done over the phone, an employee will call them instead of having them come in. My mother now has stated they typically only see three to five members a day. My father, Kurt Dunham, is an electrical project manager who runs the east side of Michigan through the company Consolidate Electrical Contractors which is based out of Lansing, Michigan. In the first few weeks, they were not worried about the shutdown. They thought they most certainly would be considered essential, because electricity is certainly essential. Well, they were sorely wrong. My father got word that he would be laid off and would need to claim unemployment. This was a very scary time for my family, because we had been in this position before. My father had been laid off several times before getting the position he has today. Each time this occurred, we struggled financially since my mother was the only one bringing home money to support a family of four. The day my father came home and told us he has to file for unemployment, was a rather scary day. Within the next few days, he tried to file. Then he tried again. And again, and again. The website would not allow him past certain questions and he was directed to a phone number to call. He called at least one hundred times to no avail. The familiar feeling of uncertainty started to sink in. Eventually, he sat down at 8:30 pm on a weekday and was able to fill everything out. He is now getting unemployment but is unsure as to how long this will last. �Personally, this lockdown has been everything but fantastic. It has not even come close to what I expected would happen. I am now taking this virus very seriously and taking all the precautions that I am able to, but it is very difficult. First off, I am very into fitness and becoming stronger physically and mentally. Since my gym has been closed for more than a month, I have a great sense of sadness. I miss my trainer, Marc Dearing, and the gym members that I see there every day. My mom and I have been going to our gym, Next 5 in Davison, since May 2019. The only day we rest is on Sundays so as you can imagine, this has become a huge part of our lives. Marc has been great with all of his members throughout this shut down. He provides us with at home workouts every single day (except Sunday’s of course) on a private Facebook group he created. Along with this, him and his wife, Kathy, go live on Facebook to do the workouts at 7 am each day. This seems to keep us all connected enough, but it is nowhere near close to the amount of connection we get in the gym. Secondly, it has been very hard to not see anyone else I do not live with. I am in a threeyear long relationship with my boyfriend, Brenden Wardlaw. We went to high school together, so we are from the same town. In fact, he only lives about three minutes from me which makes it difficult to know he is so close. When we are in school, he attends Davenport University, so even then we are used to seeing each other on the weekends. Now, that has been ripped away from us, I find myself to be very distraught each day. We are used to going places and making incredible memories but that has been placed on hold. I think this has a major role in the deterioration of my mental health during the quarantine. Technology has been great in the way that we can video chat, but the feeling is indescribable. It almost makes me sadder because I want to be there with him in person in a time of struggle. Although this is all true, we both decided at the beginning of this that it is best to stay in our own homes for the protection of both of our families. Brenden’s father is still recovering to this day from an almost two-month long hospitalization from a total colectomy. His body is not fully recovered and we both would feel terrible if somehow this virus got to him. I have several other family members that I am very close with that I cannot see during this to keep them safe. My grandfather, Larry Swadling, has been battling multiple myeloma for 18 years and has a very weak immune system. I am �used to seeing him and my grandmother, Corrine, just about every week. It has been very hard to only see them through a videocall. Lastly, a huge way this has affect me personally is the way that college classes are being held. Originally, I thought it would be fine and my professors told us that we would do a synchronous meeting through our blackboard site. This only lasted a week for some and for others, our original plans changed completely. One of my professors who I will leave unnamed, did not have Wi-Fi at their house. Due to this, we were given a slideshow and basically told to learn the material ourselves. This was a more difficult class, so as you can imagine, I became very upset with the organization. Even though this was happening, we were still held to the highest standard to learn what they wanted us to. Another one of my professors did a synchronous session for the first week. Beyond this, they stated that the university recommended they not hold the sessions because students may have obligations. After this, again, we were sent PowerPoints to learn by ourselves. This became very frustrating to me. It had caused many mental breakdowns and tears because I felt that I was being robbed of these college courses. I reached out to a few of my friends and they expressed they were feeling the same way. In my mind, I thought the professors should still hold the meeting and record the session. This way, the students that could not make it would still be able to access it at a later date and still get the learning outcomes of the course for everyone. Due to this, I felt myself lacking motivation with each class. If there was no set time for me to meet in a virtual classroom, I did not want to sit on my laptop and read the slideshows. While I understand some individuals can learn this way, I cannot. Along with all my frustration, I had to realize I am not the only one in this boat. In fact, I am sure that all college students are feeling the burden of online classes. We were uprooted and planted back at our homes, which have many distractions. I have a 14-year old brother who seems to constantly be on my nerves. My father is constantly at home wanting to talk and get things done around the house. What I wanted them to do was to stop talking to me because I was so frustrated with life, that I wanted to take it out on them. These actions were totally not like me because I am very close to my family and always wanting to be involved with them. I felt that nobody understood what I was going through. Nobody �knows that often nights I cry myself to sleep out of fear, anger, uncertainty and sadness. But when I take a step back, they may be going through struggles themselves too. We are all in this together even though we may not know how long this is going to last. At the moment, we are on shutdown until May 1, 2020. As it did before, the shutdown may get extended leading to more emotions and frustrations. I must keep reminding myself that this is uncharted territory, and nobody knows what to expect. And again, we’re all in this together, nobody stands alone. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource COVID-19 Journals Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. University Libraries Description An account of the resource This collection of journals and personal narratives was solicited from the GVSU community by archivists of the University Libraries during the events of the 2020 COVID-19 global pandemic. During this unprecedented crisis the university closed suddenly, following federal and state guidelines of social distancing to reduce the spread of the novel coronavirus. The university closed its campuses on March 12, 2020, and quickly moved students out of campus housing. Faculty swiftly transitioned to fully-online teaching for the remainder of the Winter 2020 semester, and all campus events, including commencement, were cancelled. The purpose of the COVID-19 Journaling Project was to document the individual and personal experiences of GVSU’s students, staff, faculty, and the wider community during this time of international crisis. Some project participants were university student employees who were compensated for their journaling. Other participants were granted stipends or extra credit for submitting entries to the archives. Still others participated without any compensation or credit. The University Archives remains grateful to all who submitted journals, for helping us to understand the impact of this crisis on our community. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2020 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived University Archives. COVID-19 Journaling Project Subject The topic of the resource Epidemics Grand Valley State University College students Personal narratives COVID-19 pandemic, 2019-2020 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource COVID-19 Experience Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dunham, Ashlyn Description An account of the resource Journal of GVSU student Ashlyn Dunham's experiences during the COVID-19 pandemic. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2020-04-21 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived University Archives. COVID-19 Journaling Project Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource COVID-19 pandemic, 2019-2020 Epidemics Grand Valley State University College students Personal narratives Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University University Libraries. Special Collections and University Archives. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context COVID-19_2020-04-21_DunhamAshlyn Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Language A language of the resource eng https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/303df619bf94bb1a7d67aa59c4b419b0.m4v 4a7e48a5efecc6d18f86129329a8915d https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a765c2363a012be5358107471c85bed5.pdf 0bebfab2af441469220e10ebf464ca49 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veteran’s History Project Korean War Paul Dunning Length of Interview (00:23:37) Background Paul Dunning, born January 16, 1932 Served in the Korean War, 7th Division Signal Corps  Corporal- Dunning’s highest rank Born in Holland, Michigan Had one sister Father was a press operator for the local newspaper, mother had a glider job during the war, but was otherwise a stay-at-home mother Service (00:01:01) Registered when he was eighteen, just out of high school, worked at a furniture company Was drafted, went to Fort Custer, Michigan after physical examinations (00:01:40) Went to Arkansas  8 weeks of physical training and 8 weeks of technical training as a Field Wireman  Food wasn’t too bad there, Korea they had C-rations, had to usually stand up while eating o In reserve camp had assigned time Was given a furlough and went back to Michigan, flew out of Chicago, went on a troop ship called the “Marine Adder” (00:03:20)  Took 17 days to get to Japan  Issued clothing for combat  Got on a ship to Korea, had to take a landing barge in, no combat  Went through the Korean Trades then Chowon Valley (North of Seoul) past the 38th Parallel � Assigned 7th Division Signal Corps  Detached down to TDS (Temporary Detached Service), 3 regiments Korea (00:05:18) When sailing over to Japan and Korea, the ships were very crowded, had to sleep in canvas hammocks  Were three decks down, must have been 800-1000 people on the ship  Hadn’t been assigned to his company yet  Had a rotation system in Korea, 36 points (00:06:20) o 4 points a month when in combat zones; certain zones were more than others, combat zones = 4 points (per month), danger zones = 3 points, 2-point and 1-point zones  When the Armistice was signed, Dunning moved to a 1-point zone, had 4 points left (32 total)  Ended up being in Korea for 11 months  Rotated out and took a sister ship out of Korea; a lot better than going into Korea Was a field wireman so he laid down lines from the command post to the outposts (00:07:50)  Had WE-8 Phones, laid a lot of wire  Eventually put up telephone poles, when the Armistice was signed, buried some to protect from mortars and artillery A lot of mortars in Korea, usually in the hills; was shot at often (00:09:18) Did form friendships, but not like in soldiers did in WWII where their group stayed together (00:09:50) Wrote letters to his family, got to call every once in a while, few times from Japan (00:10:25)  People in Japan were very friendly, went to Tokyo and saw the Emperor’s Palace, markets, and monuments Recreation = getting to the showers ASAP; never got your clothes back, they just cleaned what was given and handed back whatever fit (00:11:20) �After the Armistice, Dunning got to be a truck driver; drove a jeep, three-quarter ton Truck hauling troops (00:12:00)  Sometimes drove Korean work crews out; also got water, worked with a little Korean boy  Sometimes handed out payrolls  Saw a little more of Korea, near Seoul  In Korea a total of 8 months in the war and 4 months afterwards, total of about 11-12 months Going Home (00:13:14) Got out of the Army and was transported back to Fort Sheridan, Illinois  Wouldn’t let him out until he had served for 21 months, had 19 months under his belt  Went back and forth to Fort Sheridan, pretty lenient so he could finish up his time Was in Korea during the Armistice, North of the 38th Parallel, the end of the Korean War (00:14:00)  Armistice: Korea was never really a war, considered a Police Action; had a cease-fire  Carried a rifle in Korea, fired it Citizens didn’t react harshly towards the veterans; Dunning did what he had to do (00:15:06) After Korea, worked at a place that built boats, also was married shortly after  Jobs scarce at that time, had several jobs before his first child (25 years old) Didn’t stay in touch with the veterans he served with, dispersed throughout the country (00:16:25) Lessons from the Army (00:16:47) The Army is something every young man should register just to learn how to adapt to world situations better  Learned how to survive  Learned independence and perseverance �Had a friend named Don Small, named his son after him, took NCO training; went to Korea and was killed on the last day of the Korean War (00:18:00)  Was guarding prisoners on an island Kogi-do and was hit by artillery fire; buried in Illinois 38th Parallel was a stationary front unlike in other wars (WWII and Vietnam) (00:19:20)  Still had to lay down new lines due to shrapnel and mortar fire  Went through some minefields to get the job done  Fought with the South Koreans against the North  Weren’t any villages around Dunning’s post; knew a little refugee camp called “Little Chicago”  Often saw helicopters, but no fighter planes, no “dog fights”  Mostly had mortar and artillery fire directed at him � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Dunning, Paul (Interview outline and video), 2009 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dunning, Paul Description An account of the resource Paul Dunning served during the Korean War after being drafted into the Army. He served as a Field Wireman north of the 38th Parallel for eight months until the Armistice was signed, which he then served as a truck driver transporting Korean work crews. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Swift, Jordan (Interviewer) Caledonia High School (Caledonia, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2009-05-30 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DunningP Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives