206 24 26018 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4fb9b2b550b25157f88cb3c7032a8cb3.mp4 adb64cc241349e77cd9bcf018ca24522 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b1fe04c7c1807c8a4269ec4acd6438c5.pdf 078d483afff26e00983f7b4a9a1c26ab PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veteran’s History Project Vietnam War James Doctor Interview Total Time: 1:49:30 Background  (00:12) Born in Muskegon, Michigan, in 1947  (00:27) Dad worked at Continental Motors, mom was a housewife but also worked for a floral designer  (1:00) Had two older brothers; one was involved the Korean War  (1:50) Graduated from high school in 1966  (2:30) Knew his college grades would get him drafted, so he decided to enlist o Enlisted in the first part of 1969 o June 29th was when he officially went into the service  (3:07) Didn’t know a lot about the Vietnam conflict before enlisting  (3:23) In 1965 started working at Meijer Incorporated and worked there for 44 years  (3:35) Wanted to be a police officer; attempted to get into police departments when he knew he would be drafted soon o Was not accepted initially o But got a letter telling him he was accepted after he was already in Vietnam Training  (4:30) Basic training at Ft. Knox  (4:48) Very hot while training  (5:07) Got leaves 3-4 weeks into training  (5:20) A lot of drilling, practice on gunnery, bayonet training  (6:08) A lot of emphasis on discipline; did pushups if one messed up o Mr. Doctor in particular had some problems staying in step while marching �o Had to run around the outside of the company if this happened  (6:55) Made up his mind going in that he was going to do the best he possibly could, so therefore not so hard to adjust with this attitude  (7:36) Most of the guys training with him did the best they could, some did the minimum, and there were a few that refused to conform o One committed suicide o One went AWOL  (8:22) A few of the trainees from Michigan, but mostly from all over the US  (8:45) This was the first time he associated with people who had southern accents, and this made it a bit hard to understand some guys  (9:08) 21 years old when he went in the service, older than most of the guys there, considered the “old guy”  (9:23) Basic training was 8 weeks  (9:29) Ft. Lee, Virginia, got assigned to be a small arms repair specialist o Got this assignment through military testing; had 3 choices, this was his last one, but he said it worked out  (10:15) Worked on everything from a 45 caliber pistol to a rifle o Took them apart, put them back together o He thought it was interesting; always liked mechanical stuff o Graduated w/Honors o Training lasted 8 weeks  (11:57) 30 day leave  (12:09) December 7th, flew out to Ft. Ord, California o Stayed for a few days o Flew on a commercial flight to Vietnam  (12:38) Traveled in uniform  (13:20) He said in Virginia people were supportive of the military, but warned about protesters in California, told to be careful if they went off base  (14:05) Plane kept having mechanical problems �o Landed in Hawaii, Guam, Philippines before Vietnam Vietnam  (14:48) Mr. Doctor says he’ll never forget when they opened the door of the plane, there was a horrid smell o A guy from the Air Force warned them about what to do if their plane was attacked o (15:42) Got used to the horrid smell after a week  (15:49) Either landed in Bien Hoa or Long Binh  (16:10) Went to FTA (First Team Academy. 1st Cavalry Division training for service in Vietnam) o Basic jungle training o Fired more weapons; some of which he was already familiar with o Helped them get used to the country o Pamphlets with information about customs, etc o Instructors were those who had been in the jungle already o Felt that most of the information they taught them was helpful o Had to take repelling class out of a tower  (18:25) When he got to FTA, he was assigned to the 1st Battalion, 30th Field Artillery Regiment, 1st Cavalry Division  (18:44) Went to Phuoc Vinh o Then assigned to B battery o Helicopter took them to firebase  (19:14) Fire support base was temporary/permanent o Not going to pick it up and move it o Describes the different units there o Including 4 or 5 artillery units o Guns are split up; put on separate fire support bases o He was in the battery’s rear area – about 13 or 14 of them �o Probably a couple thousand of them at the support base o “Tent City”  (21:06) They used to get hit with mortars and 122mm rockets  (21:22) Mentions a ground hugging radar unit with them that set off a siren if they saw something coming  (21:47) When he first got there, they were hit by things a couple times a week o By the time he left, they went over a month without getting attacked  (23:12) Described the attacks when he first got there as harassment o At different ends of the base o One time they hit a bunker in the ammo dump   Hit with a mortar round (24:20) When he got on the base, originally assigned as the small arms repair specialist o A few weeks later, the supply sergeant was gone, and he became a temporary supply sergeant o He ended up being the permanent supply sergeant – promoted to E5 sergeant o He arrived as an E4  (26:07) For this job, he got up early and ate breakfast o Did paperwork – had to move around sometimes to get what he needed  (27:48) Two people in the battery that sign for everything: battery commander and supply sergeant o Supply sergeant signs stuff out o Trucks and mechanical stuff to motor sergeant o They signed it out, made sure it was accounted for o Anything they needed, he assigned it to them or ordered it for them o He made sure everyone had what they were supposed to have  (29:03) A weapons inspection was also required o Mr. Doctor made sure the serial number on the gun was correct – if it wasn’t, they tried finding out who had the weapon and exchange around � (29:42) The biggest hassle was that someone would accidentally grab someone else’s M16 o A lot of paperwork involved  (30:23) Supply sergeants have to be good at trading/bartering  (31:35) Tried to get everyone what they needed; tried to not go into the jungle that often  (32:10) The only time stuff would come up missing was when they did tactical moves o When they decide they didn’t need gun support in a certain area because infantry unit was moving from one place to another o Combat move – there is a way in the military in a combat move where you can write stuff off o It happened because some things were a hassle to move  (33:42) Very little contact with Vietnamese nationals o They (civilian workers) were allowed in after security check at 8 in the morning, had to be off base by 9; then gates were closed  (34:07) Mr. Doctor employed some Montagnard people o Hired them to do some work that the Americans didn’t like to do o This included filling sandbags o They were paid 300 piasters a day o He gave them C-ration meals also o 300 piasters = 1 US dollar o They were very loyal to US troops o Lived in village – village elders were in charge where they came from o Talks about how they chew betel nut; blackened their teeth o Good with crossbows  (37:08) Says the Vietnamese treated the montagnard people like US citizens treated blacks in the 30’s and 40’s o They were more trustworthy than regular Vietnamese  (37:42) There was a Vietnamese group that opened a pizza stand � (37:55) They went to the village and bought charcoal, occasionally bought steaks  (38:12) There was a small laundry near them also o Didn’t necessarily clean their clothes properly; not everything came back  (38:40) Laundry in Song Be; a man named Mr. Loc did their laundry very well o Invited them into his house o Kids cleaned their weapons outside o They always asked him whether or not it was going to be a good night to sleep  (40:40) Says he thinks a lot of the citizens knew what was going on but were afraid of the consequences if they said too much  (41:00) There were local bars, brothels o Never got involved with prostitutes, but some people in the rear area did  (42:40) Never got involved with marijuana; always wanted to be alert  (43:00) Had “beer people” and “bong people” – Mr. Doctor was one of the “beer people”  (43:40) Talks about opening tent doors and getting hit with a giant smoke cloud from marijuana  (44:20) Could get beer for $2.45 a case o One of his jobs when he went to Long Binh or Bien Hoa was to get beer  (46:03) Drug use happened mostly on off-duty hours  (47:50) Mentions that he has facebook communications with some of the captains he worked for o Always had good relationships with them  (50:05) In the rear area there weren’t really any officers  (51:08) Supply sergeant (Mr. Doctor’s job) works for battery commander o Anyone other than the battery commander cannot tell the supply sergeant to issue any military equipment w/out the battery commander’s authorization o The 2nd Lieutenant came in, he was issuing him uniform, boots, M16 o The Lieutenant asked for a .45, Mr. Doctor could not issue him one �o The lieutenant asked who was allowed to have them, which was awkward, since the supply sergeant could have one while the lieutenant could not o The Lieutenant asked for his .45 and was very persistent o He even went to another sergeant to ask for the .45 o He ended up being a forward observer  (55:25) There was a lieutenant he worked with that wanted him to come out and visit his family after the war was over  (55:57) Helicopters would take Mr. Doctor out to different bases o Made sure the guys were getting all the supplies they were supposed to be getting o Talks about this one guy who always messed up his gun o Mr. Doctor gave him a lesson on how to do it properly – disassemble & reassemble o (56:55) Flew around on a Chinook, and some Hueys, also rode in a Loach o (57:46) They once flew back in a Chinook that had rotor problems  (1:00:06) Mentions fling on a Caribou, a relatively small transport plane. As they were coming back, the crew chief instructed them to wear seatbelts because they had lost an engine o (1:00:50) Remembers seeing fire trucks near the landing strip  (1:01:41) Says the scariest thing for him was either on the back of a 123 or 130 o Sitting on the back jumpseat, as they were bringing up the ramp, had his feet dangling o Caught the tip of his boot in the ramp o He yelled “stop!” and the ramp was stopped, and the worst thing that happened was the tip of his boot crunched o From then on he crossed his feet while sitting in an aircraft  (1:02:49) On the ground, the closest he got to being hit was when he first got there, with rockets and mortars going off o The rockets were 122’s �o Done sporadically  (1:04:20) Talks about a piece of a 122 rocket that he spray painted black and used as a paper weight  (1:04:45) He was not allowed to take it home because it was war material  (1:05:11) Talks about a time where he almost could have gotten a purple heart o Had to go out in the morning with troops, take claymore detonators out because the helicopters could accidentally set them off o Went out with troops to make sure someone didn’t put them back in o One morning they were doing this, and “Charlie” (Viet Cong or North Vietnamese) decided to drop mortars on the base o (1:06:15) Mr. Doctor accidentally cut himself with razor wire while running back o Went to a medic to have it stitched up and had a tetanus shot o Someone wanted him to fill out paperwork for a Purple Heart o He didn’t feel right about it  (1:08:06) Sometimes helped out with medical unit o Helped unload helicopters, moved casualties and injured people into hospitals o (1:09:00) Talked about white phosphorous  (1:10:00) Flew out to one of the gun platoons in Song Be, caught a ride o Took longer than he thought it should take o They landed in an area they weren’t familiar with o The crew chief says to him, “you were never here”- they were in Cambodia o Many enemy supplies captured and destroyed in Cambodia o After this, mortar attacks on their base reduced drastically  (1:11:56) He said he didn’t know a lot about the war as a bigger picture other than what he was involved in o In terms of Vietnam as a whole, he wasn’t sure where he was o Didn’t see a full map of the country until much later  (1:13:14) They started to pull out units when he was over there o Transfers in from different units � (1:13:53) Spent a little over 10 months in Vietnam Going Home  (1:14:30) Within two days of getting orders to leave, he was back home in the USA o Was still wearing fatigues when he got home  (1:15:26) Brought back a NVA bush knife o Used it for splitting wood o Made in England o Not sure how it got to Vietnam  (1:16:50) Wanted to go to Australia while in Vietnam, but never took R&R because he left early because his dad needed surgery; that’s when he went home  (1:18:48) Got back to the states in the end of October of 1970  (1:19:00) Still in the military at this point, but got leave to go see his dad  (1:19:30) Assigned to Ft. Sheridan, Illinois o Said they had no real use for him and knew he would get out of the service early o Was an NCO at a transit holding detachment o Here, he processed people in who had gone AWOL, or deserted, after they turned themselves in to MP’s o He was one of the ones who would provide them with meals, uniforms, place to sleep o The company commander was also getting out of the service o Very relaxed o (1:20:47) He and the other NCO’s worked for 24 hrs on, 48 hours off o (1:21:33) they worked it out to stay there for 48 hrs – which meant they got 96 hrs off o The company commander allowed it o Went to Michigan on his off time o Said this wasn’t smart because he often didn’t sleep �o (1:23:00) Said there was an Italian place next to Ft. Sheridan that brought them food o (1:23:17) A guy that went AWOL came in who didn’t like NCO’s or taking instructions  The guy was huge  Watching a movie and it went past the time lights went off, let him watch it  Didn’t want to risk running into trouble with him o (1:25:08) He asked the guy if he wanted anything from the Italian restaurant  There was never any problems with him  (1:25:58) Most of the time he got along with everyone  (1:26:12) When in Ft. Lee, after graduating w/Honors and got automatic promotion, rank allowed him to march troops back and forth to classes o He wasn’t that much into it o A black soldier didn’t take it seriously o Filed a complaint when Mr. Doctor told him to stay in step o Said he called him a bad name o (1:28:38) Two other black soldiers testified for Mr. Doctor o The other guy got in trouble and didn’t graduate for filing a false complaint  (1:31:45) In the combat area, he thinks most of the people looked past prejudices  (1:32:14) Talked about a black guy that kept messing up wherever he went, he was into “black power,” prejudiced o Threw a grenade somewhere, injured people o A sergeant went after him with a machine gun o There was talk/controversy about it  (1:35:22) They tried to get Mr. Doctor to reenlist a couple times  (1:37:45) After he finished at Ft. Sheridan, Meijer hired him back under the GI Reemployment Bill o Retired 44 years later �o Retired in 2009  (1:38:15) He said the service taught him to be more mature, responsible, how to deal with money o Wouldn’t have been his first choice, but he believes the service taught him a lot  (1:39:23) Regrets the exposure to the Agent Orange o Nobody knew anything about it then o Had a couple friends who died from it  (1:40:31) Has some friends who were in the Korean War that call him and other Vietnam vets “Vietnam Crybabies,” for blaming diabetes, etc on Agent Orange o VA says it really was from Agent Orange  (1:41:19) Tells Korean Vets that if the Vietnam Memorial hadn’t been built, theirs wouldn’t have been built  (1:42:02) Says it’s a shame that it took our country so long to build a memorial (including for WW2 vets), but they started it  (1:42:28) At this time, the Vietnam vets were the highest educated group that had been in the military  (1:42:40) Says drug use wasn’t that bad compared to the amount of people o During the other wars, it wasn’t covered by the media so that’s why it didn’t seem as bad  (1:43:21) Mr. Doctor’s dad wanted him to join the VFW o He did o He didn’t get what he considered to be a great welcome o They acted like it wasn’t a real war, not great reception o For 6 or 7 years, paid his dues, but never went again  (1:44:45) Transferred to a different VFW  (1:44:58) Family members didn’t talk a lot about it  (1:46:56) Thought about doing the interview so future generations can know about it � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Doctor, James (Interview outline and video), 2011 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Doctor, James Description An account of the resource James Doctor is from Muskegon, Michigan. He enlisted in the Army in 1969 to avoid being drafted. He received his basic training at Ft. Knox, and AIT at Ft. Lee; where he was assigned to be a small arms repair specialist. Here, he graduated with Honors. Once he got to Vietnam he was assigned to B Battery, 1/30 Field Artillery, 1st Cavalry Division, and became its supply sergeant. He was based in his battery's rear area, but made regular flights out to the battery's forward positions, including one in Cambodia, as well as to the Saigon area to get supplies. Once he returned home, he worked at Ft. Sheridan as an NCO at a transit holding detachment until he was discharged. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Kentwood Historic Preservation Commission (Kentwood, Mich.) WKTV WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings United States. Army Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-07-07 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DoctorJ1140V Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a029e6b5e47b393c07adb175a795add5.m4v f196faf55f12c02a318b5e6355b46c9d https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d7496002b91e2a96b750903a1bdb8863.pdf 748bc6124bc8a6049a32722a576b99e6 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans’ History Project Max Doering World War II 1 hour 17 minutes 30 seconds (00:00:14) Early Life -Born in 1924 -Born in Grand Rapids MI -Father a stock broker for Paine Webber -Despite the market crash family was doing well relative to most. -One sibling, a brother. -Followed world news of the American entry into the War closely. -Learned about Pearl Harbor on the radio. -17 years old when Pearl Harbor was attacked. (00:02:40) Enlistment and Boot Camp -Didn’t want to enlist, waited to be drafted. -Friends were drafted nearly the same time. -Enlisted in the Navy as a preference to Army. -Entered the service March ’43. -Boot camp at Great Lakes in Illinois. -Regimentation: drilling, boats, knot tying, etc. -Navy began using cots instead of hammocks at time of enlistment. -Wasn’t too phased by trainings. -Boot camp lasted roughly 8 weeks. -Seven day leave after boot camp. (00:07:55) Great Lakes Hospital Corpsman Training -About a month to six weeks of training. -Assigned due to interest in medical care. -Training not in hospital itself. -Mostly first aid training. -Completed Corpsman training end of June. (00:10:35) Seattle Naval Hospital -Train trip to Seattle over several days. -Stay at Seattle Naval Hospital about a month to six weeks. -Disliked his experience and so volunteered for Marines -Worked as 1st or 2nd class pharmacist mate -One instance; burn patients from Alaska in a torpedo attack (00:13:30) Marines -Sent to San Diego Marine Corps training center. -Approximately a month to six weeks of training. -Mostly physical training. -Then put into a replacement unit to ship out. -Traveled on a Dutch ship to New Caledonia. �-Traveled in a convoy of 2 or so other ships. (00:16:50) 22nd Marines and Marshall Campaign -Shipped from New Caledonia to Marshall Islands -Approximately a platoon unit took Higgins boats to check large Japanese gun turrets. -Guns were no longer in place but evidence of their presence remained. -Cannot recall the name of islet they were on. (00:21:03) 22nd Marines and Guadalcanal -Shipped to Guadalcanal -Approximately a four/five month long stay. -Life at Guadalcanal was routine. -Attended a Red Cross USO show. -Local tribe was scarcely present. -Traded a mattress covering for a carved hatchet-like tool. -Played a lot of poker in off time. -After arrival estimates about half the men got malaria. -While he didn’t get malaria, eventually at Guam he came down with dengue fever. -They were treated with preventative medicine. -Some of the men got filariasis and were sent back to the US. -Mother sent letters every day, and occasional packages. -At this time his brother was in the Army deployed to Europe. -Weather at Guadalcanal was heavily raining, and reached 120 degrees. -Boarded troop transport ships to ship out to Guam. (00:27:00) Battle of Guam -USS Missouri accompanied their ships (as it had in the Marshall Islands) landing nearby. -USS Missouri did engage in the conflict. -Once boarded onto the ship given instructions on destination, tactics, etc. -No memory of being shown tactical maps. -Attack was an initial bombardment, and strafing. -Navy Air Corps and the Army Air Corps involved. -Approximately 1-2 weeks after the Marines arrived the Army arrived to take up garrison duty. -Proceeded in two half-track vehicles and a Japanese battery destroyed the other vehicle killing all the passengers. -Took half-track type vehicles from troop ship to the shore itself. -Observed a surprising amount of equipment dated 1918 from WWI. -Once on shore infantry moved in and they followed behind. -The 1st Division landed on section of island by the town of Agana. -His unit the 22nd Regiment and the 4th Regiment landed as the 1st Brigade. -Proceeded to the Orote Peninsula where old Marines barracks were. -There were reportedly more Japanese by the 1st Division than this location in the western area. -The 1st Division to the east, and their 1st Brigade never met up. -Estimation of light to medium casualties. -Took the role of attending first aid to the troops. -34:20 - 38:00: Carried an injured soldier on his back to the aid station under the threat of sniper fire. �-Newer Corpsmen received instruction on giving blood plasma however he did not. -Once troops pulled out volunteered to remain on Guam as a preference to returning to Guadalcanal. -Remained on Guam for about a month without event. -Took food via Jeep to a native family. (00:42:00) Okinawa -Preparation before shipping off to Okinawa: -Initially returned to Guadalcanal to prepare for landing on Okinawa. -Troops initially speculated the preparation was for Formosa. -Heard news about the fighting going on Iwo Jima. -Landed at Okinawa on April 1st 1945. -Encountered no problems with the landing itself. No Japanese opposition was present at landing area. -Went in with the 2nd wave. -Bombardment followed prior to landing. -Six divisions involved: Three Marines, and three Army. -Tactic involved Marines taking north section of island, Army taking south section. -Japanese opposition turned out to be in the southern section. -No conflict at this time however witnessed a multitude of tracer rounds and air combat at night, such as kamikaze pilots. -Recalls that a kamikaze pilot bombed the USS Franklin. [End of the first video file interview. Start of the second video file interview] -Encountered reporter Ernie Pyle the day before he was shot by Japanese snipers. -While on the north part of Okinawa witnessed a P-47 flying close by, followed soon after by two other P-47 planes. -Later discovered that a Japanese soldier had stolen the plane and was being pursued, until it was finally shot down. -Cleared out the north part of Okinawa and began to the southern part. -The Marines took the eastern half of the south part of Okinawa, while the Army took the western half of the south. -By May 1st stopped at main fortifications until late June when intense fighting took place. -Although he was at the battle for Sugar Loaf hill, his platoon wasn’t sent in. -50:20: No action on their part was taken at night, only during the day. -As Japanese civilians were increasingly used to attack soldiers, US soldiers were ordered to shoot civilians. -E.g. women tossing grenades. -No sense exactly for the amount of casualties of his particular company. -Two casualties of note: -a 44 year old married man, with a wife and 4 boys. Owner of a gas station and a garage. -a 16 year old that had lied about his age to enter service. Died the day before receiving his orders to leave for being underage. -Took the advice that it’s best not to become deeply personally attached to any one individual soldier, so their death may not be as damaging. -Used burial jars south of Naha to hole up in during attacks. �-Securing and closing up Japanese tunnels could involve flamethrowers burning foliage and tanks plowing to seal entrances. -01:00:00: June 22nd Okinawa was declared secure. That day received his long overdue orders to be sent home. -Returned to Guam, and no more than 3 days later received orders to leave for San Francisco. -Thereafter returned to Grand Rapids August 1st 1945. War ends August 10th. (01:02:00) Post War -Early September reports to Detroit receivership. -Gets orders to go to Treasure Island, the San Francisco Naval receiving station. -Ordered to return to his old unit as the US sent Marines to China to defend from the Japanese. -Ship breaks down near Pearl Harbor and he is dropped off. -Navy receivership assigns him to Navy hospital at John Rogers’s air field. -Witnessed one of the riots with local natives and the military. -Played so much poker that he won a car to use during his time on Hawaii. -After 6 months discharged to go home. (01:07:50) Misc. -Changed companies to the weapons company after returning to Guadalcanal, but before Okinawa. -They needed pharmacist’s mates and assigned him to attend a particular platoon. -Weapons company at Okinawa was placed further back. -Some weapons consisted of: 30 caliber water-cooled machine guns, 37 millimeter cannons, French 75 on half-tracks, Browning automatic rifles, flamethrowers (were not in his platoon). -Did not have mortars. -Platoon consisted of 40 men working in pairs. -Third person in the platoon (amongst the two mentioned earlier) to be killed at Okinawa was a casualty of shrapnel. (01:12:30) Post War Continued, 1946 -Returned to college, got married, had two children. -Worked for a Swiss pharmaceutical company [likely to be Novartis] for seven years. -Turned down promotion that required moving. -Became a stock broker for 48 years. -Wife was a long time high school girlfriend. -Proposed on leave and married after the War. -Views his time in the military as a neutral necessity. -During his time training for pharmaceuticals in New York worked 6 months away from wife and his infant child. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27_DoeringM1859V Title A name given to the resource Doering, Max H (Interview outline and video), 2015 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015-07-28 Description An account of the resource Max Doering was born in 1924 in Grand Rapids, Michigan. After Pearl Harbor he was drafted into the Navy in 1942 and had boot camp at Great Lakes in Illinois. After training as a hospital Corpsman, he volunteered to serve with the Marines and was placed in the 22nd Marine Regiment. He participated in the invasions of the Marianas and Okinawa. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Doering, Max H. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Navy Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Moving Image Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project collection, (RHC-27)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/x-m4v application/pdf https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5984733f3120b2a2d9bdf4c903a27c2a.pdf e72f147ff49acc8f3873f4c811d226c6 PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Interviewee: Filiz Dogru Interviewers: Allison Kelleher, Ray Ramirez, Lukas Johnsen, and Jaci Cangealose Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 3/21/2012 Biography and Description Filiz Dogru was born in Turkey, came to the United States in 1990, and settled in West Michigan in August 2003. He is a professor at Grand Valley State University and an active member of the Niagara foundation and the Turkish American Michigan society. He discusses how he never felt different until moving to West Michigan, although the Grand Rapids area is improving on diversity. Transcript KELLEHER: So remember when I told you we were going to, the interview was going to be archived? DOGRU: Oh Boy, you are scaring me now. KELLEHER: I told you that for previous or for future research, if you want you, it can be used later on, or just for this project, it’s completely up to you. There is two of them you have to fill out, one of them is a copy for our teacher and one is a copy for Grand Valley’s records. DOGRU: Ok about this who will write, is it here in Michigan you are interested? Or in general in the world? CANCEALOSE: Let’s do both. KELLEHER: It’s for studies in west Michigan but it’s incorporating all different aspects. Yeah. DOGRU: Ok, Ahh. My previous interviews are not that serious, trust me. CANCEALOSE: Well we are required to do this. KELLEHER: Can I have your copy of the page… DOGRU: Ok final transcript like before you are presenting or before giving anybody, are you going to give it to me to read it? Because if there is any misunderstanding, I may say, oh, I didn’t mean this, is it? CANCEALOSE: I don’t think she went over that in class. KELLEHER: I don’t think she did either. Page 1 �CANCEALOSE: So we can ask her about it today. KELLEHER: We are presenting on Monday or Wednesday. DOGRU: Oh this coming Monday or Wednesday? CANCEALOSE: Yeah. DOGRU: Oh, so when I have time to see it? KELLEHER: We are gonna work on it this weekend, and we can give you…. DOGRU: This weekend I am not here (laughs). KELLEHER: Well we have… DOGRU: I am out of town. KELLEHER: We will do our best to get it done by like, when are you leaving? DOGRU: Saturday Morning. KELLEHER: Could we get it to you Friday if we work really hard and try to get this transcript done? It’s gonna be a lot but… DOGRU: If I can have it like Friday five o’clock or so. I can hopefully, I will check my e-mail, and get back to you by mid night or so, is that ok? KELLEHER: We will do our best to get it done by then. DOGRU: Ok, hopefully the questions are easier than this one. KELLEHER: Sorry. DOGRU: What do you want me to do? KELLEHER: You have to read it and give your initials. CANCEALOSE: Grand Valley makes us do this. KELLEHER: Both of these have to be done. DOGRU: Oh, this is my name right? KELLEHER: Yup. DOGRU: I wish you brought these. KELLEHER: Yeah I didn’t have them. DOGRU: Is that it? This one too? Page 2 �CANCEALOSE: Yup. KELLEHER: You can do it at the end if you want, since there is two of them and you had already done one of them. DOGRU: Ok. KELLEHER: If that’s what you like. DOGRU: I wish to do one of them. DOGRU: And today is 21st? KELLEHER: Yeah I didn’t have these with me yesterday. DOGRU: Oh, which one is me? KELLEHER: The printed name and then the signature. DOGRU: Yeah but both require my signature? KELLEHER: Is this supposed to be mine? CANCEALOSE: No you are the interviewer, you ask the questions. KELLEHER: We can get some white out. DOGRU: This is me? DOGRU: Alright guys let me see. KELLEHER: Sorry about that. DOGRU: You look so serious. KELLEHER: Sorry. DOGRU: It says could you please give me some information about yourself. DOGRU: Are you recording already? CANCEALOSE: Yes. DOGRU: You are serious? KELLEHER: We have to go back and listen to it. We just have to give it to her so she knows that we actually conducted the interview. DOGRU: Ok. KELLEHER: She is cool, she will let us. Page 3 �DOGRU: Full name is Filiz Dogru; do you want me to spell it? CANCEALOSE: Sure. DOGRU: D-o-g-r-u, I have one soft g in the Turkish alphabet, as opposed to the g in the English alphabet, that’s why it’s not Dog-ru but Dogru. And place of birth, is in Turkey, if I can have a paper? KELLEHER: Sure. DOGRU: In fact Turkey is called Turk-ey-ya, somehow in English they call it Turkey. And date is, oh that is a bad date, February 9, 1962. Ok I’m pretty old huh? Alright parents and siblings, parents are all passed away, siblings I have only one brother, ancestors, what would you want me to say on that? My grandparents, great grandparents, they are all passed away. KELLEHER: Where were they from? DOGRU: My mother’s side was the Balkan Turks, and my father’s side is from Anatolia, it is just regular Turkey, it is a long time they have been there. Life partner, I don’t have any. No marriage, nothing. No children. Education, I have three master’s degrees and one PHD. Religion is Islam. Community involvement, oh I am very actively involved in dialogue organizations, do you need particular names for that? Or just in general? KELLEHER: Yes please. DOGRU: I am an active member of the Niagara foundation, and I am an active member of Turkish American Michigan society. KELLEHER: Can you say that again? DOGRU: Turkish American Michigan Society. DOGRU: And professions, I am a mathematician, a university professor, political party, NOTHING. I hate politics; I don’t want to follow politics. This is my personal opinion anyway. DOGRU: When did you come to Western Michigan? August 2003, but I came to United States in 1990. DOGRU: How would you describe your own identity? I am a Muslim, Turkish American. DOGRU: Was there a particular moment in your adulthood or growing up when you were treated different because of your faith? Oh yea (laugh). Well first of all, growing up I was in Turkey, I came to the United States when I was 25 or 26 years old, and I didn’t felt anything until I came to western Michigan, it’s really funny isn’t it? Immediately after I come to western Michigan, I realize that I am different, not from the community, but I don’t know if that is related to my faith, or my dress code, or my accent maybe, or they realize my accent is from another country. I can’t pin point on that, but I definitely realized that I’m different. KELLEHER: What was it like in school? You said that you had three master’s degrees. Where did you get them from? Page 4 �DOGRU: I received a master’s degree at Brown University Providence, Rhode Island. It’s very diverse, and I didn’t feel anything was different because everyone was from somewhere. And then my second master is in Virginia Tech. That is also a huge research school too, so that is also very, very diverse. I didn’t feel anything, and also another thing is I didn’t live in the regular city. I also lived in the campus, at least you don’t feel you are different at the time, you just feel you are a student. It is all students there from different cultures and different ethics and things, and same thing; I got the third master degree from the University of Toledo. That is also very diverse school, I didn’t feel much. I earned my PhD at Penn State, in Pennsylvania. That is also a huge research school. Those schools, they are recruiting students from all over the world, you don’t feel some people are different and some are not, we are all, we do not feel anything. But immediately after I came to western Michigan, I wasn’t a student anymore; I wasn’t living in the campus. I had to find a regular apartment, I had to live in the community, and it’s a different approach with the community, you know? In that case yes, I felt it very much, in the mall, people are talking to you and it’s totally different than they were talking two seconds ago to someone else. And the cashier’s behavior, especially when I came here to the bank, I didn’t understand bank, cashier would be saying something about something and I would sorry I did not understand this and she would start raising her voice as if I don’t hear it. I told her ‘I am not deaf, please come down and tell me the term, what does that mean?’ And then they didn’t know how to deal with someone who looked a little different than them. That’s what I thought. KELLEHER: When you came from Turkey did you go immediately to college and live on the campus there or did you live in the community? DOGRU: No. The whole my life, I lived in always the college towns, always I was in the big schools, and always I was surrounded by those people. For example, at Virginia Tech, that is a small town, but the town is completely university. Penn State is like that too, the whole town is the university, you don’t see other people, everyone is faculty or for the university, or student, so even though it is a small town, you don’t feel it. Providence is a big city, but I lived since I was new at the time in the campus, I didn’t go around it that much, so I didn’t feel anything. And let’s see where else, here Grand Rapids was totally different because Grand Valley University, this university is separate from the city. It’s not the city is the university, so in that case you are some people know when I say I am working for Grand Valley they say ‘oh that’s great, my cousin’s daughter is going there.’ I mean it’s nothing close relation with the school. KELLEHER: So what made you choose Grand Valley? DOGRU: Job. So after I graduated I earned my PhD and I applied several places and got three jobs offer, I don’t know if you are family or how those work because every January we have mathematicians applying for jobs, we have a big meeting and in those meeting you can choose what jobs are good for you. Then you can apply. After you apply you and they like you, then they call for the interview. If they like you in the interview, then you get offered the job. I got offered several of them, I got three offers, and Grand Valley was the best of those three, so that’s why I came here. KELLEHER: You said that Grand Rapids was totally different because it was separate from the university. Can you talk about what your experience was like when you first came to Grand Valley and to the Grand Rapids area? Page 5 �DOGRU: Grand Valley was ok. I mean everyone somehow, someway went to graduate school. They know those kinds of environments; they came from outside the area to find a job, but outside the university is not very familiar. And still there are some, but it’s so different ten years ago and now, you can feel it, even Grand Valley did not have this much diversity. Now they are doing very good job to collect those students and faculty members. At that time, it was obvious, when you go into a meeting, or you go into some kind of gathering with the community, you are suddenly left alone there, you can see people looking at you a little differently, kind people, I’m not saying they are unkind, or bad. You can feel it, and that’s a very bad feeling, I had never felt that before. But it’s changing, I can definitely say that. There is a huge difference between ten years ago and now. KELLEHER: Did you ever feel different around your students or people that took your classes, things like that, how did your students react? DOGRU: Good question, very good question. I am a mathematician, I teach calculus, I teach geometry, whatever you can think of. In those classes, especially calculus’s, it’s not easy for the students, especially because some of the freshman are taking calculus. In the beginning, everything is interesting for them, I am interesting, different type of teacher, and especially the beginning because right this moment I think students taught students. They give the information about yourself, nobody knew me before, I was just there. They were staring at me, that fine, that’s okay, new teacher, they problem started, whenever they start getting bad grades. Good students usually don’t talk, if they like something in your class they don’t go around and say ‘oh it’s wonderful, it’s beautiful,’ but if one bad student in there doesn’t understand what you are saying, he immediately blames you have an accent, you are not talking English, this is coming up. In the first several years, the first three or four years, it was coming up. It came up very much. I was like ‘oh god, I have been here twenty years talking with these kids and they don’t understand.’ I have ninety students, five of them don’t understand, and those five student’s voices are out, but anyway, those kinds of things happen. I even remember once, one student went very well the whole semester, and suddenly he flunked the final. Everything was fine at the time, oh he was friendly coming in and out, and of course when you flunk in the final, your grade is automatically going down. It won’t fail it, but if it is A it becomes B, and B becomes C, and goes on. And after final he came and he said ‘you know I flunked because you know you are, you are…’ and I said ‘what? You know, what happened?’ He said ‘well you are not speaking well.’ I just looked at him, oh lady I am sorry. Whole semester, first exam, second exam, his quizzes, his homework, everything is done, but final is horrible and I’m not speaking very well? Ok that’s fine but I didn’t speak Turkish (laugh). You should have just told me, but anyways, those kinds of things happen. I am usually a very patient person, that is my personality. You remember several students from the beginning that they will blame immediately my English if they do not understand mathematics. I call them, come over, let’s look at it. One student I remember couldn’t do it, just couldn’t do it, he got mad and he slammed the door went. I just said okay, you learn more. KELLEHER: About how often does that happen? You have encounters with… DOGRU: No, I’m talking these things in about the first three years KELLEHER: The first three years. Page 6 �DOGRU: Yeah, the first three years. After that, as I said, the students are teaching, I mean talking to each other, and one generation to another generation. I think somehow, someway, before coming to my class, they have some information about me. KELLEHER: Okay. DOGRU: So that helps. KELLEHER: Yeah. DOGRU: So I’m talking about the first three years it was really bad. But went okay (laugh). KELLEHER: Did you ever encounter anything with other faculty? Not just other students, but with faculty? Any situations that were not quite right, where you, treated a certain way? By faculty, not just students. DOGRU: Mhmm. it is very unfortunate, but yes. I witness couple of things that even today I remember very well and it hurts. But the thing is, the good part is, forget about the negative. Good part is those people that hurt me in first couple of years, they already realize what they have done and they already apologized. KELLEHER: Mhmm. DOGRU: So that is helpful. I mean, everybody can make mistakes. I can make mistakes too. But the good part is if you realize that mistake and you don’t repeat it, and at the same time, eh, make the other person think that you already know it. I did that mistake, but I regret it, and maybe not in clear words but actions helps a lot. So yes, it happened. KELLEHER: Would you mind telling us what happened? You don’t have to if you don’t want to. DOGRU: Right now the person who told this I really like and we’ve become very good friend, but without giving a name, that person, I don’t even say “he/she”, that person was kind of advising a new faculty members and we were two at that time and that person was advising the other new one and I was behind that person and I heard how advising, that person advising that new faculty member and then I approached and I let them know I was there and then same person turned back and said “oh, you know what, I’m advising that person, so let me give you similar advise to that, to you also, and then in her advice, telling me that standards was so high. Like, I don’t want to give into details, and it was so obvious. That person didn’t realize that I already heard what was telling to the other one, and then, for example if advice to that person is ‘do two of those, that’s enough,’ and then same thing, exactly the same thing and turn back to me and saying ‘do four of those, even four won’t be enough.’ That hit me very well but I didn’t do anything at that time. I like that person right now, and we are good friends. (Laughs). KELLEHER: That’s good. DOGRU: That’s good? Keep going? Page 7 �KELLEHER: Yes. DOGRU: Where are we? KELLEHER: We jumped around a bit. DOGRU: Oh we did? Okay, So are you going to ask? Or do you want me to go one by one? KELLEHER: We’re kind of skipping around. DOGRU: Oh okay then I’ll listen to you. KELLEHER: We got a little off track. I liked it. (Laughs from both) DOGRU: Well we can turn back if you want. I have time. KELLEHER: How did you… going back to your encounters in the classroom with other faculty… How did you deal with those kind of things in situations?” DOGRU: Okay, that’s a good question. Many, many times I sit down and think about it by myself. I was planning to be here for a long time. First of all, as a person I’m not a quitter. I don’t. ‘It is too hard, I quit! And go.’ No. I’m not that kind of person. At the same time, I don’t like the people step on me. I really don’t like it. And as I said just a second ago, about student, I’m a very, very patient person. First of all, I like talking. But the thing is I don’t do it immediately because when you confront people immediately, they usually get defensive and they don’t hear you, but they just try to defend themselves. So in that case, the first reaction from me is being quiet, and back off. And the, in the right moment, but I cannot forget, that’s the, that’s the thing. In the right moment, at the right time, I can bring it back and talk. Maybe some that person doesn’t except at that moment too, but at least I will let them know that I know these things. I’m aware of it. Because let me tell you one thing, , cultures are so different. I grew up in a Turkish culture, which you have to be very modest, very calm, and very… how can I say? Put the others first. But, honestly, I will say this - this culture, , translated here has a stupidity. If you put others before yourself, and if you act modestly, like for example in some of your success, here I can see people are really proud and say it. But, I grew up in a culture if you do big good things you don’t say it. Let other people say those things. So if you don’t say those things, people translate that one as if you don’t have a self-confidence, you don’t have , how can I say these things? Mean you are not sure about yourself. So they translate that way. It took some time for me to understand that. Because to be hble, to be modest, is my way of living. KELLEHER: Mhmm. DOGRU: At the same time, you are humble and modest and suddenly people are thinking ‘Ha! You’re stupid. You don’t even say it! You don’t even proud of it!’ So this was a difficult thing for me. So I am trying to balance right now. I cannot just go around and say ‘Hey look I did this, I did that!’ I cannot do that because I couldn’t, I uh I wasn’t taught that way. I wasn’t grew up that way. But at the same time, right now I realize if you don’t say it, people are not taking it very well. So I’m trying to balance it a little Page 8 �bit. So this is the difficult thing. Oh, another thing. Forgiveness also really translates here stupidity. Yeah. If you are good, well for me it’s if you are good you forgive people if they make some mistakes. Maybe they can, maybe you can give a second chance. So in that case they really translate ‘Oh, she’s stupid and she doesn’t realize that.’ But it’s not. It’s totally different. , but I do I regret for that? No. Will I change it completely? No. Because there is a saying also in English the saying that ‘Killing with kindness.’ I think it works. I think it really, really works. If you go and start fighting, if you go and start confronting, people will make the problem bigger and bigger. Instead, just let the cool down a little bit in the environment and talk to people later on may effect more. KELLEHER: Mhmm. DOGRU: My opinion, as I said. KELLEHER: Mhmm. That’s fine. , you mentioned that you noticed uh differences in the like reactions and and modesty and in forgiveness and in that kind of things. What was one of the first things that you noticed when you came from Turkey? DOGRU: Mhmm. KELLEHER: Like here, when you were first at school doing your master’s. What was one of the first things that you noticed culturally was a big difference for you that you had to come to terms with? DOGRU: For me, it’s diversity. I mean, not the feelings, but in Turkey, okay, when I came here first … let me put it together. In Turkey, we have different type of; we had to write nouns, I had been here more in fact. Uh we had over there so many different types of people because of the big Ottoman Empire. Its uh, we have European type, we have Asian type, we have Russian type, we have Russian type, we have Arabic type. I mean we have so many different features, different uh color hair color, eye color, and different types of people. And I never ever felt that. I mean, we didn’t know there was any difference until I came United States. And when I came to United States, I don’t know whether I should say this or not, but suddenly, still they were talking about ‘colored’ people. When I heard this term first I was shocked! Truly shocked! What does that mean? People is people. What does the ‘colored’ mean?! The first time I realized that there are still some differences do we have in Turkey? Oh yea. Right now we have tons of different people! But we never thought about it. We never think about it. And then later on after I came here they started some Turkish-Kurdish stuff in Turkey. I said ‘Uh, that’s not what I know!’ (Laughs) DOGRU: Because we live together, we don’t even know who is who. We just all same country people. Who cares where they from? That is the first thing shocked me here. I said, they immediately, they are still thinking about the, uh those days, and they are still thinking about the unfairness between it, and then I didn’t recognize it in the campus too much even though I heard it. But, when I came to Western Michigan, I felt it a little bit. They still have that kind of mindset. But as I said, in time, it’s going much better. Right now I can feel the difference. I hope that was the answer of… what was the question? I don’t know (laugh). Page 9 �KELLEHER: No, that was, that was perfect. Was there, you said you didn’t notice uh in Turkey everyone lives together and there a difference. You don’t notice a difference at all. DOGRU: Exactly. KELLEHER: Is there no… I just don’t understand because here, we treat people differently and it’s so unfortunate. , are no one’s treated differently there because of your ethnicity or your race… DOGRU: “No one. Because you didn’t know who was who.” KELLEHER: “Okay.” DOGRU: “Just just people. Your neighbor, your worker, your things. We never interested in where they come from. We never. I mean, we were interested in how good person is. How hard worker is. How, let’s see… how they are behaving to their neighbors and stuff. These are the more important thing for us. We never ever… well maybe I was young, so maybe that’s what. But even here, I mean young people know about those things. Sometimes even makes me think. If you guys don’t have, or if we don’t have here, just those celebrations like ‘Oh we have to celebrate that, we have to celebrate this,’ so even those emphasize. Or, so how can I say it? In school for example, uh, teachers sometimes give a talk. Saying that ‘Oh you have to behave same with this person, that person.’ I think that gives the students mind ‘Oh, we are not doing it? Or maybe it’s not supposed to be done that way that teacher is warning me?’ So this, I don’t know, I might be wrong as I, my observations is this one. We never thought about that person you have to behave good and that person you have to behave good. You have to behave everyone good! You don’t have to emphasize it so you are behaving good to that one so you have to behave good to this one too. No! Everything is same! You have to behave good to all. (Laugh) That’s it! KELLEHER: You’re not highlighting differences. DOGRU: Right, right, right! KELLEHER: Okay. DOGRU: This is a right word. Highlighting. They are highlighting here sometimes. KELLEHER: Mhmm, like with… DOGRU: Even, let me interrupt you, and this is a really interesting thing. I was hired here and many, many faculty members whose foreign origin comes from other country, they grew up here or they went to school here, maybe eh late ages and stuff. When they hired here, they didn’t ask ‘International Faculty,’ or more worse, ‘Foreign faculty.’ They never give any advertisement like that. I never applied for this ‘Foreign faculty’ advertisement. They look for ‘Faculty Members.’ But after I came here, I realize I’m already classified, separated, as ‘Foreign faculty members’ and this really bothers me and still bothers me. I still keep talking but nobody listens to me. (Laughs). I mean, yes, we may born in a different country but nobody hired me here, or offered me job anywhere saying ‘We are hiring you because you are a foreign faculty.’ Then I understand that. That means there’s a different class that they are hiring for that class. No! They didn’t give me anything separate. They are just saying ‘This is the job Page 10 �advertisement, this is the qualification’ and I applied for that. And then suddenly after I came to Grand Valley, not just me, they always call either ‘International Faculty,’ or worse, worse, worse is ‘Foreign faculty.’ Why am I foreign faculty?! I, I, I fight, I say it? Applied under the same conditions with everybody. There is no ‘foreign’ or ‘non-foreign.’ KELLEHER: Similar qualifications… DOGRU: Exactly! Qualifications is there, background is there, everything was there. They give me the same interview, uh… KELLEHER: Process. DOGRU: Yes, process, exactly. And then, they hired me! And why am I suddenly faculty member which is foreign?! That’s, that’s not good. (Laugh) KELLEHER: I just thought of… [Unclear] DOGRU: I think this helps you. KELLEHER: Oh, it does. This is great. We live, this building is two buildings down from the international housing. DOGRU: Uh-huh… KELLEHER: On campus, the Murray building, right next to Van Steeland is international housing so I just thought of that. DOGRU: So international students go there? KELLEHER: They have the option to apply to be, err, apply to live in international housing, and I just thought of… DOGRU: Why not just student housing? KELLEHER: Exactly. DOGRU: International? They already put you in a different chair. Done. And then they are saying ‘You are good to me; you should be good to that one too.’ That’s no. I’m sorry. (Laughs) KELLEHER: No, please keep going if… DOGRU: That’s, that’s it. CANCEALOSE: I have a question. You’re, you were born in Turkey. Do you have your U.S. citizenship? DOGRU: Yes I do. CANCEALOSE: When did you get that? Page 11 �DOGRU: it was a choice. It’s recently in fact because I worked more than nine years. After four, okay, let me tell you this process. After you become green card permanent resident after four years, you will be able to apply and have your citizenship. I waited like almost eight years. I didn’t apply immediately. So after eight years, I applied so I got that. CANCEALOSE: Was it a hard process? DOGRU: Not hard but long. CANCEALOSE: Yeah. DOGRU: Long, long process. Let me tell you another things, for example my brother and his family came to United States ten years ago, no twelve years ago and then they become a citizen after three, three and a half years I think. They become a long before then me. So its process is up to you I mean, when are you applying, when are you getting it. But I got recently, one or two years. CANCEALOSE: Oh, okay. DOGRU: I had green card though before. CANCEALOSE: Mhmm. KELLEHER: What made you change your mind? You said you waited. Most people wait after the four year process. What made you want to wait even longer? DOGRU: Well this, which is good, just time. I couldn’t find time to apply because as I said process is long. So you have to fill lots and lots and lots of forms and they sometimes send you for fingerprinting in somewhere. Sometimes Detroit. So you won’t have time to go there. So time was very difficult. At that time I wasn’t tenured also. I didn’t know whether I would be able to tenure or not. So I said ‘Well, just wait. Wait and see what will going, and how it goes the process.’ And then then I got tenured, I said ‘Oh, okay then let me get it.’ (Laughs) KELLEHER: Was there a time where you ever, or will there be a time you think where you want to go back to Turkey? And if... just don't want to be here anymore and you want to go back home? DOGRU: Was there a time? . Ph.D. is a very hard job, especially in mathematics, the reason I wanted to go back home and quit everything sometimes, whenever I get very, very stressed because of the work got too hard. But as I said I'm not quitting very quickly, that easy. Yes once in a while I said ‘Ok I'm leaving this things, I don't want to be doctor, I don't want anything anymore,’ that moment’s came but usually because of the work stressed. But that kind of moment never came after my PhD. I'm done with that, it’s ok. Yes work was hard from time to time but there's the expression or the saying in Turkish language, ‘I burned all my ships to go back.’ There's no way back now, I don't know does it make sense for you or not. I came with the ships but I burned them all so there's no way back. So this is my way home, that's it. KELLEHER: What made you decide math? Page 12 �DOGRU: Oh that's a long story, but this is a very classical I guess. From the childhood, (laugh), but it's true because I was really unique in my classes since from the elementary school. I was very enjoying mathematics and then my teachers usually picked me for mathematical competition, mathematical whatever we have some kind of program stuff. I was picked all the time, so that give me kind of proud and saying ‘ooh, I'm doing something good’ (laugh). And it continued, and mathematics opened me to go abroad. Opened the opportunity to give me opportunity to go abroad. So I came to United States. If I'm a chemistry major for example, or let's say biology. In those types of areas, not much foreign students can be able to find a job here. Mathematics is a little bit better, it's really interesting but when you have graduate school, every school has a different type of, let's say, math, biology, chemistry and those types of things. And especially the finance related schools, you won't be able to find a lot of foreigners in there, so you will just international, you will just go ahead and pick those schools and then people who are finding jobs from those schools, which originally from other countries is much less than people are finding jobs here, from other countries, in physics, mathematics, , engineering, those are more in here. I mean you can find a job better. KELLEHER: Why do you think that difference exists? You said it would be different if you were a chemistry major. It would be more difficult for you to find a position. DOGRU: That's right. I don't know. I think people who are here, especially in mathematics, American students, in other words are just born and raised in United States, they don't like mathematics. They say ‘We hate mathematics, we hate math!’ This is could be the reason, maybe it affects above levels, yes we have lots of American born faculty members and stuff but in big research universities, if you really go there. It's the foreign, ‘foreign faculties’ (laugh), are more over there. So that case, I think that education is from the bottom I think, from the elementary school, and especially in Asia and Balkan region and not recently but earlier in Russia. And those area are really strong in mathematics and physics and those kinds of things. I don't know, I mean I'm not education person in that subject, you know. KELLEHER: Do you think if you were still, if you were born here in the US would you still consider yourself Turkish, Muslim American, you claimed your ancestry, you still would have been able to get the same position? Or going off of when we were talking about the differences in being able to get the job and job opportunities, do you think you would have had the same opportunity to get this position or any of the other ones you were offered? DOGRU: You mean if I was born here, raised here, go to school here to prepare myself? KELLEHER: But you still practice your... DOGRU: My religion and my background and culture. KELLEHER: Right and you claimed your Turkish decent and you claimed that, just a hypothetical... DOGRU: I believe so. The reason is, I mean I don't know how good I would be at the time, my education would be where, I mean how much mathematics I would know or whether I would be able to do those PhD, asse that everything is done, I believe would the same qualification and the same time I would Page 13 �have the same job offers because those job offers or , those job posts, doesn't separate about the culture or the religion, about the what country you are from, about the you understand what I am saying? I mean whenever we search even right now I mean whenever we search some faculty position, for some faculty position, we just give the qualification and we put over there, what kind of things we are looking for in that person. And those things doesn't include their culture and their background and their religion. Those are totally different things, so it's a good thing in fact. So whether I born there whether I born here doesn't matter but all I need is match the qualification and you're what they are looking for. As long as they match I think they will be ok. KELLEHER: Will you tell us about your family? DOGRU: My family, as I said I'm not married and I don't have children, I don't have my own small family, but as a family I have my brother who is in Pennsylvania. He is the closest family right now I have. And he has two kids going to Penn state, so good. And then I have four cousins but we don't see each other much because they are in Turkey and I am here and travel is too expensive. Well you may say ‘well travel is not there but Skype is there,’ but everybody is so busy. So it's difficult. Once in a while yes in the holidays and here and there when some wedding ceremonies and stuff we call each other or something but other than that we don't want, we don't have, not want, but we don't have very close relations right now. KELLEHER: Do you get to see your brother often? DOGRU: Oh yeah, yes, almost every break, for example Christmas break and ser break. But he didn't have very demanding job before and he was coming and visiting me and I was going and visiting them but now he is working like 24/7 so it's hard for him to come but we talk on the phone. So yeah. KELLEHER: What made your brother, do you know what made your brother want to leave Turkey as well? DOGRU: yeah, I know very well because he, I don't know whether you guys remember or not, in 1999 there was a huge earthquake in Istanbul. Istanbul is the biggest city in Turkey, and in that earthquake my brother with two partners had a big shop that they were sewing and selling the coats, winter coats for man and woman. And they were sewing, it was very good business but unfortunately in that big earthquake everything is gone, because buildings are over and all the customers, the people who are buying from them and selling there are gone too, and the business is just pffff, disappeared. And then those three partners decided to separate, everybody, some of them went to other city, some of them stayed in Istanbul. At that time I was forcing him to apply for a green card. I don't know whether you are familiar with the green card or not. Green card is permanent residency in the United States. And he was applying and that year it was third year for him. There is a green card lottery every year in United States, they have some particular nber of people, for example they were saying 500 people from Turkey, 500 people from, I'm just throwing those countries names, Russia, 500 from Mexico, 500 this, 500 that. So they are making a lottery out of those applications and then they are choosing people. My brother in the third year had this situation, the losing everything. And they got the lottery. They got the green card. So he called me and he said ‘well what we going to do? Can we come?’ ‘Cause they didn't speak English, Page 14 �they didn't have money. That was little difficult at that moment. And I said ‘Well I'm here.’ I was a student but let's try. In the worst case you'll go back and start all over. And then they said ok and they came. At that time kids were very young. My nephew was 9 years old I believe, it's the third grade. And then my niece was the first grade student. They came and the third day we put them in school, without speaking one word of English, my goodness. So they came, they start with the very small thing, like my brother went and washed the dishes at one restaurant and my sister in law babysit for some people. That cased they slowly learned English, the kids of course they grabbed English very, very quick. They helped their parents, I helped a little bit and then they decided ok, we're going just fine, let's go on, let's keep going. Then they're going right now, they're still here. And my nephew right now is the third year college student. Can you believe that? And my niece just started this year, she’s a freshman. So yeah. They decided to be here too. KELLEHER: Do you know of if they've had any encounters, unfortunate encounters where they were treated differently, that you know of? DOGRU: I don't think so, no. The reason is that they live all their lives in Pennsylvania State College, I don't know if you're familiar with that town or not, that town is a very, very diverse place. So in that case there are lots of people that came from other countries. If you are in the environment, you don't feel it. You don't know that you are different because everybody is different in that case. If you call different. So everybody is han, here we go (laugh). Children of God. KELLEHER: Will you talk about the organizations you're involved in? DOGRU: Oh sure! my organizations is the Niagara Foundation. Niagarafoundation.org. I'm doing commercial right now (laugh). It's nonpolitical, nongovernmental, and nonprofit organization. Completely volunteer based and they are trying to promote the dialog and friendship, all the good things you know in the society. And they are doing these things on so many different levels. For example, this Niagara Foundation is best organization. In 11 states is included, Michigan is one of them. So what they are doing is they are having dialog dinners, annual. Almost every city. In those they are bringing all the community leaders together in that dinner. And then we have always three speakers and then we have always a topic, for example the last one was art of living together. So they give a speech on that and with the nice good Turkish food, so we just discuss those things and then we have annual again every city in Michigan. Abrahamic dinners, we put those in that case we invite religious leaders and religious communities to get together. For example the last one was in Alni house here and topic was altruism. And we invited one Jewish, one Christian and was Muslim speaker. They talked about that and we have seminars for example, on 24th, today is what? 21St, I believe it's the 24th at Ann Arbor. Yesterday was in Lansing. There are two seminars called “Heroes of Peace” so in every culture whoever worked very hard for peace, one person will talk about that person. For example Mother Teresa is one of them, Gandhi was one of the topic, and Goolen was another topic. And there are several of them right now but we can check. And then we have for example two weeks they go in Lansing we had for the woman's history month. We had woman panel perspective of all three woman leader from the community. One was senator, the other was medical doctor, and these are all from different communities and then one was dean. Those three ladies talk about their difficulties; the questions like you are asking me right now, it's very similar. So we asked those questions to them and then they gave Page 15 �beautiful presentation. So that helped for the society too. And then the Niagara Foundation, I can go on and on I don't know, you can stop me at any time. And then we can have visitation of the nursing homes, visitation of the young children stays without mom and dad. Foster care. Orphanages, yeah those kinds of places and then they help for the food banks and let me see what else. Oh, that's my favorite one which is the children's day. Last year we had it at Wayne State University and this year they are having it again. In that every single culture in the United States the children coming and performing their own dance, song, things, and so colorful and so beautiful. You can go to the website and see more. And see all the video tapes they have over there, it's so beautiful. And last year even though it was the first one, 17 different ethnic groups send their children for some performance. It was a beautiful one, that was my favorite, anyway. I can go on more, there are luncheons, fors, so many things, visitations and stuff but I'll cut if off. KELLEHER: What about the Turkish American society you mentioned? DOGRU: Very good, in fact this Niagara Foundation and Turkish American society are kind of sister organizations. Niagara Foundation more on the dialog among the societies, among the communities and Turkish American Society is more on cultural stuff. So it's going on the lots of, for example it will be soon, next week sometimes, I'd have to check the date. It will be henna night, do you know henna night? Henna night is the night before the marriage. Girl's friends get together in one house and have a big celebration. Only girls, only girls! Sorry (laugh). Big celebration and then they are culturally, represent those celebration in Ann Arbor, or Detroit, they are doing it this year. It is nice stuff is going on but not just one or two, I mean it's a lot. I cannot list them right now, it’s not possible. So they are yes they are sister organizations but their work is a little bit different. DOGRU: And then, Niagara Foundation… I can go on and on, I don’t know. You may stop me any time. And then we can have, uh, visitation of the nursing homes, visitation of the, uh, young children stays without mom and dad… KELLEHER: Foster care. Orphanages. DOGRU: Orphanages, yeah those kind of places. And then they help for the food banks and, let me see what else. Oh! That’s my favorite one which is the Children’s Day. Last year we had them at Wayne State University and this year they are doing it again and that, every single culture in United States, the children uh coming and performing their own dance, song, things. And so colorful and so beautiful. You can go to website and have more and see all those web videotapes they have over there. It’s so beautiful. And last year, even though it was the first one, 17 different ethnic groups and their children for some performance. It was a beautiful one. That was my favorite, well anyway. I can go on more. There are luncheons, fors, so many things, visitations, and stuff, but I’ll cut it off. KELLEHER: What about the Turkish-American… uh… Michigan Society that you mentioned? DOGRU: Very good. In fact, this Niagara Foundation and Turkish-American Society are kind of sister organizations. Niagara Foundation… eh… more on the dialog among the societies, among the communities. And Turkish-American Societies is more on cultural stuff. So it’s going on, lots of, for example, it will be soon, next week sometimes. I have to check the date. It will be Henna night. For Page 16 �example, do you know Henna night? So Henna night is a night before the marriage, eh, girl’s friends get together in one house and have a big celebration. Only girls, only girls, sorry! (Laughs) Big celebration and then they are culturally represent those, eh, celebration in Ann Arbor, or Detroit they are doing it this year. So, it is nice stuff is going on. But not just one, two, I mean it is a lot. I cannot list it right now. It is impossible. So they are, so they are yes, sister organizations but their work is a little bit different. DOGRU: Different targets. Okay. We, uh, for, as part of our class had to watch a video. … it was called, , 30 Days. I don’t know if you’re familiar with 30 Days. , they take, err. In this video we watched they took a practicing Christian and they challenged him to live 30 Days as, with a Muslim family. And he had to participate in the things they participated in, dress the way that they’re supposed to, eat the same food, go to, uh, , practice their faith, and it was a really interesting video to watch. And it, we have one of our questions for you was, Muslims are depicted differently on the television. And the media twists things around in almost all aspects of life. And I was wondering what your, , kind of take was on the way, uh, Muslims are viewed through the media’s eyes… if you have an opinion on that. DOGRU: Well, unfortunately you can hear right now it’s very little positive things about Islam or Muslims. Well, (sigh), it is really unfortunate but right now one good thing. I usually pick the good things. In fact, one good thing, uh, people, especially the young generation: eager to learn before decide. So, the older generation when I look or talk, whatever they hear from the media, they just have it. And unfortunately since media doesn’t talk very positive, then they have very negative view towards Islam and towards Muslims. But, as I said, young generation is little bit more curious before taking it in, maybe because of the technology. I don’t know. They know the internet, they know the Facebook. They can communicate much faster than older generation. Even me, I mean you are, you guys are much better than me. And then they are learning. And they are can reach the information easier, faster. And then they decide their own instead of uh, listening someone else’s opinion about something. Which is a very, very big plus for me. , how can we change the media? Can we do it? Mmm… not very soon. The reason is I’m saying this is a recently I learned that it was in the internet again. There is a special, uh, company. It’s really paid with the big budget and their job is create a bad media against Islam. And then the company beside this, uh, fear.inc. Fear dot I mean information is in here. So they give incorporations. So if you read that thing, they give who is donating that money, how much money, how they are working, what they are doing. And there is a huge things going on behind the scenes. So it’s very clear that there is a active, , work just, just, just to be bad publicizing Islam and, ah, Muslims. So in that case, that will be always there. It won’t go away. But, as I said, I mean, without learning, the young generation usually don’t fall into that… hole. So which is good. And about Muslims, , I cannot say all of them are nice. Muslims are, Muslims are also a han being. And there are bad ones too. There are the ones that I can’t even see and hear sometimes and I want to slap them! So, there are. Unfortunately, just looking at those people and then decide about their religion, that’s a wrong decision. In any religion. In Islam, in Christianity, on Judaism, or Buddhism, or whatever, or Hinduism, whatever you are approaching. You cannot judge a religion by looking at just one or two people. Could be those two people are not even practicing. So, but they call themselves Muslim, and they call themselves something else. And then so then the whole religion is getting the bad influence? No. That’s not right. If someone wants to learn about Islam, or Muslims, or Christianity, or Judaism, they supposed to learn from the right sources. And it is really hard, I can tell. I mean, how can you decide which is right, which is wrong? And for us, one Page 17 �good guidance is always there, as a Muslim, by myself. Sometimes some books even can confuse me. Uh, the Quran is my first guidance because that never ever changed; that’s the good part. From the beginning, ‘till now. Go to Malaysia, go to Indonesia, go to Arabia, go to Turkey, go anywhere! It’s still the same. I know sometimes it’s hard to understand. I know we have to read the translation not the real one. But still, that’s the best guidance in the moment that we cannot decide. We confused. That is, that is what I can say on that. But, of course. I mean if you, if, if you want to learn good sources and good references, you can see, I mean, if somebody who’s not practicing Islam. Somebody who’s, eh, not doing anything related to it and suddenly comes and talks about Islam. If you listen that one, how healthy is that? I mean it’s very obvious and logical. All you need to do is more, mean you can look at people’s life even you can decide, ‘Oh! That person is doing good in her or his religion.’ You know? And plus, that you said Christian lived in a Muslim family… this is a good gesture. It’s good. But to force people to live in somebody’s home and somebody’s culture, why? It’s not necessary. We supposed to celebrate our differences and our commonalities. Why do, he’s wonderful with his belief, Christian. And she or he is wonderful with his/her belief, Muslim. So why not put them common ground and let them practice that and let them practice that. We have to have a differences. We cannot put everybody in a same clothes. That’s impossible! We have to have the differences. That’s the beauty. The Niagara Foundation is in fact emphasizing this one a lot. One thing I forgot, can I go back and tell one more thing about it? Uh, when I say differences and stuff in them… we have every year, Noah’s Pudding celebration. I don’t know whether you’ve heard about it or not. Do you know? , Noah’s Pudding: everybody knows Noah, right? Is a prophet long time back, had flood, lots of animals and his, eh, ship. And then flood is gone and was everything was out and happens. Good! Very good. In that time, at the end of the flood, eh, the food inside the ship is almost finished. And they had little bit of this, little bit of that, of rice and nuts, and whatever you can think of, grains, and fruits, dried fruits and anything. But everything is little by little. But they have to have a big dish to eat; maybe the last dish but big dish. What they do is put altogether and cooked. Niagara Foundation makes it every year. Same dish. We call it Noah’s Pudding. So many different things at the same time! That dish is delicious, sweet dish. It’s delicious! So, we look at people like that! I am Muslim, somebody’s Christian, somebody’s Jewish, somebody is... uh… Hindu, somebody’s Buddhist, somebody is something else that I don’t remember right now. That’s okay. We come together and we can make a very good Noah’s Pudding. Trust me. (Laughs) Maybe I should bring Noah’s Pudding here to share with everyone. That, I should do that. You give me idea, okay! I’ll, I’ll try. KELLEHER: … going back to, uh, before the story about Noah’s Pudding, , you talked about the differences: let them practice this, let these people practice this. In the video, when you said you can’t uh, look at two people and get an idea for an entire culture, you can’t get an idea and an understanding. That’s the realization that , this man, this Christian man came to when he spent the 30 days with the Muslim family. And it was, he said almost the exact same thing, he said ‘you can’t blame (in reference to he heard a lot about 9/11 and the treatment of Muslims after that time.) He said you can’t blame a country or a religion or a group of people for the actions of five.’ And his time that he spent in, with, in the 30 days was really a way of educating himself about it because he didn’t know about it. And it was wonderful to see how his viewpoints turned and I just… DOGRU: He’s, he’s right. I mean, you cannot just go on and see a couple bad people and then say ‘oh, that religion is bad.’ But you don’t know the billions and billions of people following that religion maybe Page 18 �is good, you know? So it’s kind of very, very difficult things. , knowledge is important. If people know what is what, then they know better. In that case they won’t decide with the one or two people, obedient or behaviors. Definitely. But I don’t know how to increase the knowledge, well, that is my goal too. KELLEHER: As part of your organizations. DOGRU: Exactly yeah. Inviting people and trying to tell. , also I blame some Muslim people too. They were too closed before 9/11. They weren’t, integrated in the society. You understand what I’m saying? I mean, they were, they just lived in their own community. Which is not right. You have to know your neighbor. You have to help your neighbor. You have to say hi to your neighbor. This is Islam. But unfortunately, before 9/11, we had, well, somehow Muslim community here and they don’t mix up with others. So that was bad too. Right now, that’s what we’re trying to do. I mean because, han being is han being. If you have children, you love them. If you see something bad, you hate them. If you, if you are hungry, you love good food! Right? Han being is a han being. I mean, Mom, just think about this. Mom and their children. Do you think is any different than any other culture than Muslims? Muslims there, this country, or some other religion here in this country. Do you think mothers and children relation is different? No. Their love is exactly the same way. And everybody’s cry… One person told me that, it was really, (sigh) , I will just, I told him you are ignorant. He said ‘well I didn’t know that Muslims could sit and cry too.’ I said ‘what are you talking about!’ You are… because they are always fight? In their eyes they always fight. They always like fighters and they supposed to not cry at all. They are han idiot! I’m sorry. (Laughs) No! They laugh, they cry, they work, and they have friends, they have family. They are exactly the same. Because han feelings are the same. Doesn’t matter where you’re born, what kind of religion you belong to. Well… knowledge. KELLEHER: Do you think that goes back to how you are portrayed in the media? DOGRU: Probably, yeah. Probably. Right now is much better, as I said. Internet is much better. Because the years I came here, uh… 1990, there wasn’t much internet at that time. I mean we didn’t have, we had email and stuff but internet was totally different thing. I mean we didn’t have that kind of thing, information. At that time on TV there were special channel about the religion. Sometimes I remember in front of that channel, sit down and cry. Because of what they were saying about Islam. And I was thinking, not because they were saying, and I was thinking… people who doesn’t know listen this one and they are really thinking, Islam is this. It’s such a different knowledge. My goodness. How could they say it, but they were saying it. But right now I’m happy because, eh, generation like you, they found millions of them. And they can pick. They can decide. KELLEHER: There’s a TV show now on TLC, , called Muslims in America. Do you know that? I haven’t been able to watch it. DOGRU: How is it? I mean is it good? Negative or positive? KELLEHER: I think it’s… I think its main point; I read a synopsis about it is. DOGRU: I don’t have cable so… Page 19 �KELLEHER: I think its main point is to highlight, is education, to educate people. That they’re not, like they are hans, like you said. And at least this is what I’ve gained. Just from my little bit of reading I’ve done and watching the previews for it but… you know that they are people too and just living their lives. And that they’re treated differently just for living like all the rest of us. That’s my understanding. DOGRU: It is changing though. We have a lot of hope for you guys. Young generation and your kids. KELLEHER: Are you able to interact with, uh, other Muslims here in your community through the Foundation and through…? DOGRU: Through my Foundation. Most of my Foundation people are in Lansing. I keep Lansing very often to meet them in some kind of activities to join and everything. And at the same time there’s a very nice, uh, group of Muslims here. Uh, international from many, many different countries. They are Americans, they are Malaysians, there are Turkish, (laughs), there are some other ethnic groups but they come together sometimes. Yes I join them many, many times. Not very often because we are so busy and school. Whenever I have time. Let’s say that way. I go and join them. Especially in the holidays. We get together to celebrate the holidays. So in that case, yeah. I know them. But not every day, every night like, uh, not every week. Everybody’s working. KELLEHER: Well… I can’t think of any other questions, can you? Do you have any questions you can think of? CANCEALOSE: Nope. Not that I can think of. KELLEHER: Thank you so much! END OF INTERVIEW Page 20 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e5e944f4f1f1de1fd0969b22f37c7dd2.mp3 b61b24e9b109f1a4d4b446dcd7cb873b Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Dogru_Filiz Title A name given to the resource Filiz Dogru audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dogru, Filiz Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Kelleher, Allison Ramirez, Ray Johnsen, Lukas Cangealos, Jaci Description An account of the resource Filiz Dogru was born in Turkey, came to the United States in 1990, and settled in West Michigan in August 2003. He is a professor at Grand Valley State University and an active member of the Niagara foundation and the Turkish American Michigan society. He discusses how he never felt different until moving to West Michigan, although the Grand Rapids area is improving on diversity. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Discrimination Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-03-21 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/944be5d9d5b24b7a826ff449d3b1fffb.pdf 7645257c4b9ecb261a34ba25a5fcc804 PDF Text Text Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department Ralph Dold Interview Interviewed by Walter Urick & Kimberly McKee June 18, 2016 Transcript KM: We're all set. WU: My name is Walter Urick and I'm here with Dr. Kim McKee. We're here today on this June 18th, 2016, in the city of Hart Community Center at Hart, Michigan, for the purposes of obtaining the oral history of the Ralph Dold family. And obviously, Ralph is present today. And this oral history is being collected as part of the Growing Community Project, which is supported in part by a grant from the National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Program. Ralph, I want to thank you for taking the time to visit with Dr. Kim and myself today. We're both interested to learn more about your family history, your experiences living and working in Oceana County. And so, we'll start out with some easy questions and we'll work from there. First, when and where were you born? RD: I was born in Detroit in 1931. WU: The exact date of your birth is? RD: November 13th, Friday. That's what started the… [laughter]. 1 �Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department WU: [Laughter] Friday, the 13th. Well, tell me a little bit about your parents, their names? RD: I had real good parents. Frank Xavier didn't like that middle name. Frank was my father and Magdalena was my mother. They both came from Illinois. Father was a carpenter and of course, from [?] farming. He grew up on a farm and my mother grew up on a farm. My dad was a first-generation immigrant and my mother about the second generation. WU: From, what...? RD: Germany. WU: All right. RD: There's a clutch of Dolds in Freiburg, Germany. WU: Really, the Black Forest area? RD: [Laughter] Yeah. WU: Very familiar with it. RD: My [?] owns the brewery. WU: We have relatives in the Black Forest. So, your dad and mom were first generation Americans? RD: My dad was first generation, my mother the second generation. WU: Now, apparently you were born in Detroit. RD: Born in Detroit, East Side. WU: And your dad was a carpenter? RD: Yeah. Except at that time there wasn't much building going on because we had a phenomenon: The Depression. WU: Right. What about your mom? Was she working outside the house? RD: No, she never did that part. Dad thought that was not proper. Figured if you had to have your wife work, you were a poor excuse for a man. [Laughter] WU: Did you have any siblings? RD: Yeah, I have a sister who is still alive and two brothers. One brother died last year. Ninety-four. My sister is ninety-three now and still going strong. So, we're long livers. And one brother died of a heart attack fifteen years ago, so. WU: Well… RD: Detroit, that was a nice place when we lived there. I mean, it turned into a high crime area later, but... and now it's turning into a brownfield, about everything was torn down. WU: Well, I want to talk about your childhood or try to get you to talk about your childhood a little bit. Were you raised in Detroit? 2 �Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department RD: Yeah, up until nineteen forty-six I lived in Detroit. WU: So that would have made you fifteen years old or thereabouts. RD: Yeah, that's right. WU: Let's just briefly go through that period of your life. RD: You know, I can remember, like I said, it was the Depression. I can remember things about like four or five years old. You start remembering things and I remember that it was awful hard to find money. Of course, unemployment and market collapse didn't mean much to a five-year-old, you know. WU: Were you're living in a group home of sorts or a single family…? RD: No, it was a… we had our own home. It was a red… of course, houses were close together. You know, I could reach out like this and touch my house in the neighbor's house. [Laughter] WU: But it was a single-family home? RD: Yeah, single family. WU: And east side of Detroit. RD: Yeah, and I went to school at Stevens Elementary School, which has recently been torn down, and they must have ran that right under the ground because it was old when I was going there. So, they got their full use out of that building. WU: So basically, at least through an educational standpoint, you were a city kid up until age fifteen or so. RD: Yeah, that's right. WU: Did you have any reason to go into the countryside during the summers and so forth? RD: My dad was tired of the city and, you know, the neighborhood was going to pot already anyway. And so, I figured, you know, it would be better out in the country, be better for me. And well my brother was already gone from home by then. Yeah, and so we moved out to White Lake area, which is west of Pontiac. WU: Okay, White Lake, west of Pontiac, not the White Lake that I’m thinking of. RD: No, not this one. I think there's probably a couple more. I went to Huron Valley School [?] consolidation. And it was in the process of consolidating with all the usual complaints and what have you. I have a history of going through consolidations. When I got work in New York, they were going through a consolidation, the same complaints. And when I got here, they were consolidating. Same complaints. [Laughter] WU: Before you moved out of Detroit, just since we’re doing sort of an oral family history, are there any special childhood memories that you had that you'd like to share with us or with whoever might be reading or listening to this years from now? RD: Well, like I say, the Depression was going on. Our playground was the alley and we had our own games: Duck on the Rock, you played with tin cans, and Tippee, that you played with broomsticks. And 3 �Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department then one of the things was trying to kill rats [laughter], the sport of kings. So, they had big garbage containers. There was a four-family flat next door, and they had a big garbage container, and you dump the garbage in the top and then they shoveled it out the other end onto a garbage... city garbage truck. So we would throw a match in the top and get stuff burning and the rats that were in there had to make a break for it. And then we threw rocks at them. [Laughter] WU: So those are some of your vivid childhood memories. RD: [Laughter] Kind of a warped childhood. WU: But so, you finished… what, you must have been about a sophomore in high school when you left Detroit? RD: I was a... finished half of the ninth grade because Detroit went... they ended one half the grade in the spring. And the second half, you know, they had… WU: And then you had a November 13th birthday, which put you in a little different category, I guess. RD: So, when I got out to Milford, I finished the ninth grade at Milford and then tenth played football. And it wasn't very active in the social life because we lived about nine, ten miles from Milford. WU: But you were living on what... was this a home or was it a farm? RD: We had... it was about like an acre of land and we built a house there. I helped my dad build. He was a carpenter, so. WU: So, you build your own home or your dad did? RD: Yeah. WU: With help from you and your brother or whomever. RD: Yeah, and so that was a good experience for me. Yeah. WU: Did you have any… RD: We had some chickens. WU: ...animals? That’s what I was alluding to. RD: But nothing very... much bigger than that. WU: You didn't have a cow… RD: No, no. WU: ...or a horse or anything like that? RD: We did have a big garden. We grew just a lot of stuff. WU: And basically, for home consumption? RD: Yeah, basically for home consumption. WU: Like what do you remember? 4 �Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department RD: Potatoes, of course. And I used to keep cabbage at the root cellar. One of the things, and this kind of goes back to the German background. One of the things my folks always had on hand was honey. Bought a sixty pound can of honey every year. So, Germans like honey. WU: Did you get into the bee business or anything at all? RD: No, we could buy it. And, of course, the other thing we always made was sauerkraut, you know, so... I still make sauerkraut once in a while. WU: So, those are some of your childhood memories of living at home? RD: Of course, White Lake, because we were on the lake we spent a lot of time in the water. WU: And you're talking about swimming and…? RD: Swimming and fishing. But swimming a lot, four hours a day swimming or something. WU: During the summer months. RD: Yeah. WU: So, you graduate from high school in what year, Ralph? RD: [Nineteen] forty-nine. WU: And at that point? RD: I started at Michigan State that fall. WU: Okay, and you went to Michigan State for any particular? RD: Crops and soils. Went there for four years WU: What caused you to pick that? RD: Well, I was interested in growing things. We had the garden and I guess I just and I had won a scholarship; I was in the FFA in high school. WU: So, in high school you were active in the FFA. You were active in trying to grow crops like the natives and whatnot. RD: So, I majored in Crops and Soils and it was pretty uneventful for four years, I guess, just doing what everybody does. I had fairly good grades - three-point-four average, I think. WU: And you graduated what year, you said? RD: Graduated in [nineteen] fifty-three. Graduated in June, went active in the service and... WU: So right out of Michigan State, you end up in the service. What branch of the service? RD: After basic, I was an officer ROTC. WU: You were in ROTC at State, correct? RD: Yeah. 5 �Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department WU: Okay, and so now you're in what branch of the service? RD: Army. And so, I went through basic in the officer’s course for a few months and went to Germany. And I was ammunition supply officer for a Berlin command and I didn't do very much because we were within the city, you couldn't shoot anything very big without disturbing people. And so, like I say, it was pretty easy, a little bit of small arms and grenades and a few things like that. But mostly we just sat on it and… WU: ...had it ready to go if you needed it. RD: Well, yeah, we wouldn't have lasted long if the flap went up because we were surrounded [laughter]. They could’ve put up a division against every platoon, we wouldn't have been there very long. WU: So, your service, is this a couple of years or? RD: Two years, yeah. And then got out of service, went to work in New York for the Cooperative Extension Service. KM: In New York City or? RD: Oh, Chenango County, New York. KM: Could you spell that? RD: C-h-e-n-a-n-g-o. KM: Okay. RD: The pill works [?], Norwich Coracle Company [?]. Truckloads of Aspirins. [?] WU: Tell me, help me understand, what part of the state of New York that was? RD: That would be Southcentral. WU: Largest town that I might be familiar with? RD: Binghamton is just a little south of us. KM: Okay. RD: Syracuse was quite a ways north of us. Hamilton was just a little ways north. KM: Okay. WU: Well, that helps. So, now you are working for the state of New York? RD: It's a combination thing, a combination of Chenango County and the state; a good deal like they have it set up here. WU: So, it's the extension service? RD: Cooperative Extension Service. Actually, I was hired by Cornell, somebody at Cornell. 6 �Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department WU: So like Michigan State is sort of the college that keeps our programs going here. Cornell University was doing the same thing in the state of New York, is that a fair…? RD: Yeah, it's their agricultural college. And I was there a couple of years and I kind of wanted to get back to Michigan and I had a chance to come to work in Hart. WU: Well, now let’s wait because I've lost track of the Michigan connection. In fact, I'm not so sure we've made it yet. RD: Just the fact that I was from there. I was from there. I was from Michigan. WU: Oh, Michigan. I was thinking of Hart. KM: So, what year did you come back to Michigan? RD: I came here in nineteen fifty-seven and that's why I think I'm a relatively recent arrival. Why am I having anything to do with the history? [Laughter] RD: But so, I arrived here, Bill McClain, you probably remember... WU: Oh yes. RD: ...County Agent. I was a 4-H Agent here for - I can’t even remember - until sometime in the nineteen sixties. And I don't know if I was ever really very good as a 4-H agent. I don't know that I really did a super good job. WU: Before we go much further, I want to make sure I understand the transition. True, you grew up in Michigan? RD: Yeah. WU: But you had no connections with Hart, Michigan? RD: Not up until I arrived. WU: Or Oceana County, is that true? RD: Yep. WU: So, then you're working in New York, you're gaining experience working with the agriculture community. RD: Yeah, 4-H. WU: And Bill McClain, who was… was he the County Extension Agent at that time? RD: He was the County Extension Agent. WU: How did you even find out that there was an opening? RD: Michigan State had a locator service. 7 �Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department WU: I see. So, that's how you heard that there's a possibility in Oceana County for a 4-H agent. You obviously applied; this is how you showed up in Oceana County. Was that a quick summation of it? RD: Yeah, that’s about right. WU: Now, were you single or married at that time? RD: I was single at that time. WU: Okay, and the year was nineteen fifty-seven that you showed up? RD: Right. WU: A year I remember well. That's the year I graduated from Hart High School. RD: So anyway, Bill McClain was the County Extension Agent. Bob Hopkins, who you probably remember… WU: …very well. RD: ...was District Horticultural Agent. And Barbara Culver was the Home Agent. WU: Barbara Culver, okay. RD: I fixed that, I married her! [Laughter] RD: And we didn't quite make it to our forty-fifth anniversary before she died. WU: Well now help so I understand her background. The builder Culvers, is that…? RD: No connection that I know of. WU: No connection. Okay, well I know enough about your background that it made me wonder: is that how you got into electricity? But that’s another subject. RD: No, that’s different... WU: Yeah, let's not go there yet. [Laughter] WU: Alright, so we have you in Hart. You're working with Bill McClain and you're working with the 4-H folks. RD: Right. WU: And in that situation, at least help us understand, what 4-H was doing at that time and how it was working with agriculture? RD: Well, and at that time there were a lot of 4-H clubs that were Dairy clubs. We had a lot of small dairies at that time and they've sort of faded, you know. But anyway, so we had...well, the kids had all kinds of projects from rabbits and gerbils up to cows, you know, and a big thing was trying to develop 8 �Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department leadership in the kids. And we had some bookkeeping projects; when they had like a cow, how much they put in and how much they got and so forth. WU: Yeah, keep track of everything…what you fed them... RD: Yeah, a little basic economics. WU: Okay. RD: And I went on, I can't even remember just exactly when I quit, but Charlie Halbert hired me for Farm Bureau services, selling farm supplies but a commission if I sold buildings. Pole buildings were getting big then because farms, like I say, the small farms were fading out of the picture and the big [?] were coming in, they needed big machinery and expensive machinery. So, we got to have big open buildings to store that stuff in and handle it. That’s where pole buildings came in. WU: Okay, so at this point you’re in Oceana County and we talked a little bit about the 4-H program. I know 4-H and the county fair was one big… RD: Oh, yeah. WU: Just briefly describe how 4-H and the county fair sort of work together and what the kids were trying to accomplish at that stage? RD: The kids, of course, it was a lot of exhibits, still is. You know, probably most of the exhibits are 4-H. Of course, like I said, the kids had projects and the county fair was the culmination. You know, if you had the grand champion or so forth, a feather in your hat and so forth. But that hasn't changed much, I guess, it’s still about the same thing. WU: Well, now do you remember the year that you started to work with Charlie and Farm Bureau? RD: It must have been about [nineteen] sixty-one. WU: Okay, now were you married at that time? RD: Yeah, by then I was, I think. WU: You had married Betty by then? RD: Been married about a year. That was another thing, being a 4-H agent and being married was kind of a conflict because we had to be out for meetings on so many evenings. WU: Never home, indeed. RD: Well, and that didn't go over very good. So, Barb didn't like that idea. I didn't either. WU: Excuse me, it's Barb. Did I call her Betty? RD: Barbara. WU: It’s Barbara, yes. So then, I can say that I went to work with Charlie at Farm Bureau. And it wasn't very long before I stopped selling just about everything except buildings, the first year or two I sold a few buildings. And before we got done, well, first of all, I had three crews running. Before long, we were building - I don't know how many by then - and that was keeping me busy, but it was fun work. 9 �Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department WU: Was the Farm Bureau doing that? Or was this Buildings Plus? RD: No, they didn't exist yet. WU: Okay. RD: Yeah, and then Harry Lynch came to work for me - you remember Harry. WU: Very well. RD: Okay, so there were two salesmen and he was well acquainted up around Custer so we could get our business up there. And like I said, the first year it was one or two buildings. Before long it was a hundred and fifty. WU: Where is it? I am being called to start another interview. RD: Yeah, go right ahead. KM: I’m going to finish... WU: ...and she's going to take you through the rest of your oral history and get a chance to work with you on some of those issues. So, excuse me, I'm very pleased that you're willing to share all this. RD: So, like I said, we had a lot of pole buildings going. Harry Lynch came to work for me. And then by that time, we had five building crews going and one of the crew leaders sprung off and became our third salesman. KM: So, around what year was this? RD: Well, it went up until about all through the [nineteen] seventies. And we had some big projects: the bowling alley out north of town was one [laughter]. Like I said, big buildings and the city maintenance garage and so forth. That's a big one, but a lot of them were just... a lot of thirty-six-point-forty-eights because they would hold a Friday cherry shaker. KM: Oh, okay. RD: So, we built a lot of farm buildings and a few commercials. So, this went on, had a little debate with the building inspector on one, and then we had a big hassle with the electrical inspector. We had a hog house going, a big one, and just before the pigs are due to arrive, he came in and said, you're not meeting the electrical code. The Michigan legislature accepted the bill - the agricultural bill - from the building, from the electrical bill. I said, “we don't have to have that.” They says you do. Well, the owner was getting peeved, he says, if that building ain't ready by the time the pigs get here, I'm going to put half of them in your basement and the other half in the electrical inspector’s basement.” [Laughter] So, okay, we complied with the law. Even though we weren't supposed to, we did it real quick. That bill cost us about thirty-five hundred bucks. So, after the dust had settled, I called down to the State and found out I was right. We didn’t have to send the supervisors a bill for thirty-five hundred. KM: Did they ever pay you back? 10 �Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department RD: They said, “we won't pay.” Pretty soon I got a call from a prosecuting attorney. I go up there with all my books and he says, “don't even open your book.” He says, “you're right.” But the supervisor still wouldn't pay. I said, “you will pay!” They said, “okay, we'll see you in court.” So, I sued the county. [Laughter] KM: Did you win? RD: I collected, but not the full amount; that attorney caved in. So anyway, the building business went on and in nineteen eighty we could begin to see Farm Bureau Services was making some bad decisions, big mistakes. This company is teetering. So, we had one fellow in our crowd there, Les Sieber [?], who was good with legal things. He went and we started to set up a corporation called “Buildings Plus.” KM: Okay. RD: And thought we'd have that on the shelf if Farm Bureau collapsed. We never got it on the shelf; Farm Bureau collapsed. They just wanted to get rid of the building business, they wanted to get rid of everything. So when we opened the doors of Buildings Plus, we had a hundred thousand dollars’ worth of sales! They just gave it to us. So, Buildings Plus went on pretty good and went on quite successfully. KM: And so, you only had the one partner? RD: Oh, there were ten of us. KM: There's ten of you? RD: ...in the corporation. Les Siebert [?] shot himself, not because the corporation, I know he had bad family problems. We had one of the members die, and so forth. We’d have them over [?], they would get paid off if they retired or quit or whatever. KM: Sure. RD: And this went on until Charlie, as manager - the manager before - he retired, got paid back and I took over as manager. KM: So, do you remember what year that was? RD: It was nineteen eighty-seven and I stayed manager for about seven years and retired. KM: Okay. RD: Yeah, and the company then, I don't know, some bad decisions were made or whatever. They collapsed. Not because I left [laughter], but the company collapsed and this just left me all alone. Oh, I should go back a little bit. The electrical business. KM: Yes. RB: Okay, after that practice with the electrical on that hog house, that kind of t’d [ticked] me off and I said because, “this guy is going to have us have to have a license to screw in a bulb; by God, I’ll become an electrician.” KM: So what year did you become an electrician? 11 �Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department RD: Well, it takes time. So, we fudged a few figures because I’ve done some electrical work. And I don't know, it must have been sometime in the [nineteen] seventies, I went down and took an exam to be… the Journeyman’s exam, which I passed. And then I waited two years and then I was eligible for the Masters, which I did. And we were doing pretty good electrical business before long. We had two electrical crews working, the buildings we built and others, I mean... KM: So how many building crews did you have at that time? So, you had the two electrical crews and? RD: Two electricals and I think about five buildings. We went up, at maximum, I think we had about fiftytwo employees then. KM: Okay. RD: Because we had a bookkeeper because, of course, computers arose, which I'm not much of a bookkeeper to start with and with a computer, forget it, you know? [Laughter] But she was good. So okay, we went through several before we got one that was really good. And we had a receptionist and had some people at the counter because we also did retail sales. And so, I went over the electrical business, so that's kind of fun. I enjoyed that. KM: Okay. RD: So, after I retired, I still got a little electrical work. Let’s see, Barb died. That was eleven years ago. Yeah, about eleven and a half years ago, and, you know, the first while after she died, that house was awful empty. So, I did a lot of work. If I remember right, I did about thirteen thousand dollars’ worth of electrical work just on the side. KM: Oh, wow. RD: And I wasn't trying to do, you know, just whatever came along. But anyway, so I stayed in that until about... I ran out of gas, so I just got to where unfortunately I'm not as strong as I used to be. I’m slow; I can't charge people for working like that. So, I don't do much of anything anymore. KM: So, then you retired and you said nineteen ninety-four from Builders Plus? RD: No, no. About two thousand two, I think. KM: Two thousand and two, okay. And then that's when you started the electrical? RD: Well yeah, we've been doing electrical for about... KM: Well, I mean… RD: Buildings Plus had electric crews. KM: Sure, but you had been working and doing stuff at Buildings Plus until two thousand two. RD: Yep. KM: And then you started to take on more electrical. RD: I just did electrical on my own. Buildings Plus was still doing electrical at that time, they were still operating under my license. 12 �Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department KM: Okay. RD: Which last January I let all my licenses go. I didn't want to pay the bill for them because I can't do the work. KM: Sure. RD: And I'm kind of proud of the fact that a lot of the people that we started at Buildings Plus went on to do electrical work, including the line superintendent for the city hired. Oh, you know, and a lot of the people that we got started in the building business went on. I feel good about that. We got people started out on good things, you know. KM: That's great. RD: So that's about it. KM: Well, let's go back in time because we talked a lot about what you did in terms of work, but you got married? RD: Yep. KM: And so, when you first arrived in Oceana County, what was it like? What was it like to be in Hart, at that time? RD: Oh, it was a lot different and it was different socially. We had many more migrants then because cherries were picked by hand and they were all thought of - the term “Latino” hadn’t become involved they were Mexican. Probably most of them were. And they had the Mexican fiesta downtown. Of course, downtown was a different looking place due to several fires. Some buildings disappeared, some were rebuilt. Some got the top floors knocked off. You know, they were… so the landscape changed a little bit. And, like I say, the small farmers who were good fellows and all that, nice people, but dairy is very time consuming. You're stuck fourteen hours a day if you can do the chores in two hours and that's got to be oppressive. And so, the small dairies went out and the dairies that remained were big enough to where they could have many people. You didn't have to be there all the time. And then the shift came to… we always had asparagus, it was always big stuff and of course, there’s a lot more now and the tree fruits, of course, but then we started in with the truck crops like carrots, squash, pickles... cucumbers. People always laugh, they aren’t pickles until you pickle them. [Laughter] RD: So, yeah, we had a lot more of the farm crops. I mean, like corn, especially corn. KM: Okay. RD: We had, well, some very fortunate years where the corn belt had a terrible drought and we didn’t. And so, and of course, I always was familiar with cherries and like I say the “tree foods” were always big. But, yeah, Hart changed a lot, like working at Farm Bureau still had the old feed mill. People brought in grain and had it ground and mixed and so forth. Well, one of our electric projects was rewiring that and we pulled the old feed mill out and junked it. 13 �Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department KM: Okay. RD: It no longer, I mean, nobody does that anymore. KM: What year was that? RD: I can’t tell you for sure. KM: Decade? RD: Huh? KM: What decade? RD: Oh, it must have been probably early middle [nineteen] eighties, maybe? KM: Okay. RD: No, wait a minute. Yeah, it would have been about the middle [nineteen] eighties. KM: So, when you first moved here before you got married, did you live in sort of downtown Hart or were you further out? RD: I rented a room over here for about, oh, six to eight months. And then I built a garage to live in until I could build a house; that didn't work out too good. I couldn't get a well, so we jacked it up and moved it and got a well where we moved it to. And that was the house that Barbara and I started; it was real small. KM: So where did you move the house? RD: Over to the west side of town. KM: The west side of town? RD: Originally it was on the east side. KM: Okay. RD: Yeah, you know this business about you're supposed to be able to be the guy that divides the water with the… you know, goes along with… the stick dips when he goes [?]. KM: Yes. RD: We had two of them, one who was sort of an amateur with the stick and one [?] who was supposed to be super at it. They laid out this van [?] of water. They drilled six holes, three holes up. None of them had water. I had a hole three hundred and eighty feet deep and no well. I paid half price at that time. KM: Sure. RD: So, it was still darned expensive to find out there wasn't water there. So anyway, we moved it over and they got a good well there, so they're still going. And I say that was the house that Barbara and I had when we got married. It wasn’t very big. And so we went along pretty good. We adopted a baby. 14 �Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department KM: Okay. RD: That was okay. The adoption agency said it was pretty small, so by the time we said we're going to adopt a second one, they said you’ve got to have more room. So, we built the house we’ve got now. KM: Okay, and where is that still on the west side? RD: South of town on top of the hill. And I pulled off some of the guys from my crews and got the thing framed in and we did a lot of work ourselves. Of course, we hired the plasterer. We hired some work, we hired a lot of the work. Fortunately, we had some money on hand and could finance the thing. Still kept the small house. KM: So what year did you move to the second house? RD: Well, it must have been about fifty years ago. That would make it when? Sometime in the [nineteen] sixties. KM: Yes. RD: Because the first baby we adopted is fifty-one now. KM: Okay. RD: And that went on. Then we adopted another one who he lives here in Hart and adopted a girl. And if we were to be sure we could get another girl, we would have tried adopting a fifth one. But the agency says, you know, enough already. KM: What agency did you go through? RD: Catholic Social Services. KM: Okay. RD: You could guess by my mother's maiden name or first name, Magdalena. KM: Yes. RD: Who else? [Laughter] RD: So that, of course, kids went through the whole school system here at Hart and I think they all got a pretty good education. I think Hart’s got a good system here, yeah. But, I say there's been a lot of change in Hart and I think, you know, one of the things kind of impressed me. Like I say, the little farmers went out and of course, land became so valuable, farmers had access to credit now. And most of them knew how to do what [?]. I'm really impressed by what some of the young farmers are doing. I mean, this is computerized and controlled by satellites. You know, we are a long way from what I know about. And yeah, they go across the field in the fertilizer, putting on more or less fertilizer because the satellite up there is telling it what to do. So, like I say, this is kind of beyond my scope. KM: So, do you have any memories besides the ones you've shared about living at Hart? 15 �Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department RD: Oh, I have to think about that a little bit. Well, I knew a lot of interesting people. You know, when you were doing building work, you met people. Oh, I knew Walter, here, you're from fixing his sprinkler system, which was an annual occasion, it seemed like. [Laughter] And his garage door operator. You know, you just met a lot of... went to a lot of interesting places. KM: Okay. RD: And some are more interesting because they were pleasant and some are more interesting because they were unpleasant. KM: Sure. RD: Yeah, you know, some of the places you did work, you put your boots on to go in. KM: So, you mentioned one of your children still lives in Hart? RD: Yeah, Gregory, my youngest boy. KM: Okay. RD: He lives in Hart. He works on a farm and he has worked in industry, too, but he likes to work on a farm. And my daughter lives in Whitehall, so that's not too dreadfully far away. But she did six years in the Air Force before. And my second oldest son did four years in Germany. Unfortunately, the oldest boy wanted desperately to get into the Coast Guard, but he could only see with one eye, he was blind in one eye and they wouldn’t take him. And the youngest boy, would have tried to get into the service, but he has had seizures and they won’t let him in. They’re pretty picky. KM: So, do you think one of the reasons why they wanted to go into the service was because you were in the service? RD: I think it was just expected that people did about then. You know, I mean they had the draft; it was Vietnam and we still had the draft running. KM: Sure. RD: So, you joined, I think maybe Mark was drafted. I can't remember. KM: Okay. RD: Anyway, you know, I went in ROTC and if I hadn't, I'd have been drafted. KM: So, and I forgot to ask you this earlier when you were talking about your parents, since your dad was first generation and your mom was second generation German, did you grow up speaking any German? RD: I wish I had; they both spoke German whenever they wanted to talk about something they didn't want us to know. [Laughter] But I should’ve learned German then. KM: Okay. RD: My uncle spoke German; I should have. I couldn't recognize things in German when I got to Germany. But Germany is like here, there's a lot of difference between South Germany and North Germany. You know, just like Georgia… 16 �Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department KM: Sure. RD: ...and New England. KM: Okay. RD: Where did you come from? Are you…? KM: So I'm adopted. I was adopted from South Korea. RD: Oh, okay. KM: Yep, and I grew up in western New York actually. So, I grew up in Rochester. RD: Oh, yeah. Rochester is in the Lake Plains region. KM: Yes. RD: That's the fruit growing region for New York. KM: Yes, it is. RD: That's kind of an interesting background. You ought to put something… [laughter]. KM: So, did any of your children get into building then? You mentioned your one son did a little bit. RD: He worked with us at Buildings Plus for a little while. KM: Oh, okay. RD: He didn't get along the best… he isn’t a person that works good with other people. But we were building at that time a big structural steel building and he was good at that because he wasn't afraid of heights. KM: Oh wow, okay. RD: So, you know, he could get up there. And I had a couple of people that were very good at heights, you know. One guy, whether it was three feet off the ground or thirty - it was all the same. You could walk around then, so, you know. And it's kind of sad. He comes to our church now and he's got Alzheimer's disease and you think, boy, how able he was and now, you know, it's kind of sad. KM: And so, what do you think of Hart today? RD: I think Hart’s doing good. You know, the buildings are up. Well, they're having a little trouble keeping some of them occupied. But, you know, the town is in good shape. We don't have a slum. Well, we don’t have a slum area or anything like that. They keep the streets up nice, the town looks good, and I think Hart's doing very well. And which is pretty hard to do in small town USA because your businesses can't compete with the big box stores. So, it's just hard to keep a business going in Hart, supermarkets, that type of thing - food. 17 �Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department But we had a very good clothing store here, Powers [?], and they had to shut down; they couldn't compete. I really hated to see them go because they were really helpful. And well, we’ve got one hardware store left in town. We had two or three. Of course, again, the same thing - how do they compete? KM: Yeah. RD: But I think Hart is keeping the town looking good and reasonably prosperous for a small town. I think they're doing good. KM: Okay, so remember that this interview will be saved for a long time. RD: Oh, okay. KM: So, when someone listens to this tape fifty plus years from now, what would you like them to know about your life and community? RD: I don't know; I don’t know what they'll be interested in then. KM: Well, what do you think is... from all of your fifty some odd years living in Hart, what do you think is something that you want people to remember? RD: I think I’d like them to remember some of the people here that I think were so good. Some of the people in our church that I always thought were so remarkable. One of the farm families out here, Helen Gilliland, and I think everybody ought to remember her. She was such a remarkable woman; not that she had years of college, but, boy, she was intelligent. I don't know, I guess, I think some of the people that built things up here or some of the farmers that established. I think Greiner Farms out here that started processing their own fruit and have grown very large. Todd Greiner out here… around here, when you say Greiner, that doesn't narrow it down very far - there’s a lot of them. KM: Okay. RD: But anyway, Todd Greiner did the same thing, build up a very successful business. Yeah, I think they ought to remember people like that and how much they did. I suppose you ought to remember some of the politicals. Yeah, we've had, I think, some outstanding mayors and some not so outstanding. KM: So, can you give me an example of maybe an outstanding mayor? RD: So, I’m trying to think. I think Harry Lynch did well, the guy that was a salesman for us. I think, I can't pick out… of course, I'm not in the city. KM: Sure. RD: But I think, you know, I can't pick a particular one, but I think they've done a good job with the town. KM: Okay. RD: And then, of course, you also have city managers. And I think the one we’ve got now - oh, I ought to know his name. I'm getting old, I don't remember a thing like that. 18 �Growing Community: Oceana’s Agricultural History Project A project supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant Project Director: Melanie Shell-Weiss, GVSU Liberal Studies Department KM: That’s okay. RD: We had some that I thought were really poor, but hey, I wasn't paying their wages so I guess I shouldn't say too much. [Laughter] KM: So, do you have any advice to a young person who may be listening to this tape? RD: I guess my ID's are pretty outdated, but I think people ought to look for getting into a job that produces a tangible result. Everybody is producing printouts and pictures and games, but I think we ought to go back. We ought to have some engineers and we ought to have tradesmen. KM: Okay. RD: Boy, it is hard to find people who can take the blueprint and build something out of it. I mean, you know, polymer sheet metal workers, mechanical contractors; the ones that are here do very well. KM: Yes. RD: But it's hard to find people to do that. And kids aren't interested in it. They want to do things that are to do with computers and what have you. So, I think… well, I guess what I thought is they ought to look into the trades. KM: Okay, and then is there anything else that you'd like to share that I have not asked you? RD: I think we've covered an awful lot. [Laughter] I think you’ve got it. KM: Alrighty, well, thank you so much for your time and for sharing your memories with me. 19 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/abf077a2a53c54c7afd9dce147755bed.mp3 fefc2059101959bdad91a7bd497128d7 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oceana County Migrant Labor History Collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Shell-Weiss, Melanie Description An account of the resource Collection contains images and documents digitized and collected through the project "Growing Community: A Century of Migration in Oceana County." This project was a collaboration between El Centro Hispano de Oceana, the Oceana County Historical and Genealogical Society, and Grand Valley State University funded by a Common Heritage grant from the United States National Endowment for the Humanities. The materials in this collection document the history of communities in Hart, Shelby, and Walkerville and explore themes of migration, labor, religion, family, belonging, national and cultural identities, regional, national, and international connections, and citizenship. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Oceana County (Mich.) Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Grand Valley State University. Kutsche Office of Local History Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries. Special Collections and University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource El Centro Hispano de Oceana; Oceana County Historical and Genealogical Society Relation A related resource Growing Community (NEH Common Heritage project) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-06 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf image/jpeg audio/mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Image Sound recording Language A language of the resource eng spa Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016 Subject The topic of the resource Oceana County (Mich.) Hart (Mich.) Shelby (Mich.) Farms Farmers Migrant agricultural laborers Hispanic Americans Account books Diaries Oral history Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-06_Dold_Ralph Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dold, Ralph Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-06-18 Title A name given to the resource Dold, Ralph (audio interview and transcript) Description An account of the resource Oral history interview with Ralph Dold. Interviewed by Kimberly McKee on June 18, 2016 in Hart, Michigan. English language. Ralph Dold was born in Detroit, Michigan in 1931 as the son of first and second generation German immigrants. His childhood was spent in Detroit during the Great Depression before moving to Milford, Michigan for high school. Ralph later attended Michigan State University and majored in “Crops & Soils” after being a member of the Future Farmers of America while in high school. After graduating from college and serving in the army, he relocated to Hart, Michigan in 1957 where he served as the 4-H Agent and later worked for Farm Bureau Services. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource McKee, Kimberly (interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oceana County (Mich.) Detroit (Mich.) Hart (Mich.) Farms Farmers Future Farmers of America Michigan State University Audio recordings Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Growing Community (NEH Common Heritage) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/efb17100d6dbe7c8aead118230005288.mp4 b2630dda90fb4fc8385e1e33475d20fe https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/796f4f4eb5159d98e805ae26dd794852.pdf 34586e5f0c539316dab09b0d9ce6cec0 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University All American Girls Professional Baseball League Veterans History Project Interviewee’s Name: Terry Donahue Length of Interview: (51:37) Date of Interview: August 4, 2010 at the Reunion of the Professional Girls Baseball League Interviewed by: James Smither Transcribed by: Lindsey Thatcher, March 28, 2011 Interviewer: “Let’s begin with your full name and then when and where were you born? My full name is Theresa, T-H-E-R-E-S-A Donahue. I was born in [Millaville or Melaval] Saskatchewan, Canada. I was born on a farm, my father farmed. And that’s where I grew up. Interviewer: “And in what year, when was your birthday?” 1925. Interviewer: “Okay, born in 1925?” 1925. Interviewer: “Ah, same as my mother?” Okay. Interviewer: “What was your early childhood like?” I had wonderful parents; we had a happy home life. My, both my parents were very sports minded people. And I can honestly say that I can never remember not playing with a ball. My, in fact I remember as a very young child my Dad playing in a game, you know with his men. But I was very fortunate. I had one brother (01:00), 14 months younger than I was. He was very athletic and very good. So I had all of that on my side. Interviewer: “So as a young child you were playing baseball with who? Just your dad and your brother or did you have a team that you played with?” Oh no, my mother I can remember going out in the yard with my Dad and brother and my mother and Dad would knock us a balls and playing catch and so on. And of course as I got older I would play with the boys, my brother was very good and I tagged along. Interviewer: “So you were in a farm community?” Yes. �Interviewer: “Okay so when you were a kid where did you play baseball, where did you play?” Well at school, at school. And then my brother would go with a bunch of boys and I tagged a long and would play with them, so I have been involved a long time. (02:00) Interviewer: “You went to high school I take it?” Yes. Interviewer: “Okay, how was your high school experience?” Oh listen, I played on a girl’s team. And we had we used to have what you would call sports days and we would play at competition from other schools and so… Interviewer: “Was this baseball or was this softball?” This was softball. Interviewer: “Softball.” Softball, yeah. Interviewer: “What position were you playing?” Then I pitched and played the infield and that was in the school league and then I would play with my brother and his friends. Interviewer: “Do you remember Pearl Harbor?” Yes I can remember my dad and my mother talking about Pearl Harbor. Interviewer: “Did you have a radio?” Yes. Interviewer: “That’s probably where they heard it?” No television then. Interviewer: “Right.” But we did have a radio (03:00) and we played marbles and ping pong and you know and mother was always very, a doer. �Interviewer: “Your dad was a farmer?” Yes. Interviewer: “Oh okay. Did you have to do chores?” Yes, when I came home from school I had to milk my cow and I had to do the dishes. And you know after school you would come home and head out maybe in the mornings gather the eggs, you know? I wouldn’t trade that life for anything growing up; I wouldn’t want to go back to it. Interviewer: “How did you first hear about the All American Girls Professional Baseball League?” Well I was scouted from the city team to go in to and play with their league; they had a very good league in the city. Interviewer: “How did they know about you?” (03:59) Well one of the sports days the two teams from Regina and Moosejaw was playing an exhibition game, and just before their game we were playing in the finals. And I was pitching and the manager of the Moosejaw Royals saw me there and then I remember him contacting my dad saying that I would like your daughter to come in for a try out, I was 15 years old. So my mother said, no way you are going to school. Well my dad saw to it that I went in for my try out. And I made it. So then some arrangements were made that I would have to finish school and then when school was finished I could go into the city and play ball for the rest of that season. So school started. Interviewer: “Was this baseball, or was this softball?” (05:00) This was all softball, all softball. Interviewer: “Okay, was it a paid team?” No. Interviewer: “So you were just playing for fun.” And it was a very good league. Interviewer: “Okay.” �Very good league and that is where I was scouted by the All Americans. Interviewer: “Okay, so they, somebody from their organization saw you play?” In 1954 our Moosejaw Royal team won the Western Canadian Championship. And there was a scout there I think that it was Mr. Bishop and he asked me if I would be interested in coming down next spring for a tryout with the All American Girls and I think it was in Pascagoula, Mississippi. I said “Yes I would”. And of course I could hardly wait to tell my parents, because my mother was not happy. Interviewer: “What year was this?” This was in 1954. Interviewer: “’54?” No, ’46 I mean. Interviewer: “No, oh okay yeah.” (06:00) Yeah I went into Moosejaw in 1946, and I played 4 years there and in 1945 we won the western title. Then they asked me to come down in the spring of 1946 to come down to Pascagoula for a tryout. And mother wasn’t too happy but this is where the chaperones came in. I think mother thought that maybe I wouldn’t make it. But anyway I came down I remember on that train getting into Chicago and then going with this group from there to Pascagoula and that was how I was scouted. Interviewer: “What was you’re, you are coming from Canada, had you been to the United States before?” Never. Interviewer: “Okay, and then you went into the south?” Yeah, to Pascagoula. Interviewer: “What was that experience like?” My god, well somebody is, well they sort of talked different and I (07:00) was so excited about having the chance to make this league where I could play ball every day. I can remember telling my dad once my dream was if I could play ball every day that would be my dream come true. So I was so excited, that was 1946 when they were adding two new teams to the league. They were adding Peoria and Muskegon so they needed some new gals. �Interviewer: “Now you were used to playing softball?” Yes. Interviewer: “What kind of ball were you playing with your new position?” It was softball, fast pitched. Interviewer: “Okay, well I mean when you were getting into the Professional Baseball though?” It was fast pitched. Interviewer: “Right, but the ball was…?” 12 inch. Interviewer: “Okay” It started with 12 inch. Interviewer: “Okay, so the transition was not that big of a thing for you because you already had…” Yes, that’s right. It was the same size ball as we were playing with in Canada. (08:00) Interviewer: “But it changed later on though.” Yes. Interviewer: “We will talk about that a little later on. So a scout sees you playing in the softball league and now they have offered you this professional job, and you are going to be playing in the south.” They offered me to come down for a try out. Interviewer: “Right and you passed the try out.” Yes, I came down I passed. And I’ll never forget that day. There was it seemed to me like hundreds of girls there all trying and I didn’t know anybody. I remember I remember managers and people up there with their big pencil and paper and they would call your name and you would go out and they called my name and I remember I ran out to short stop. And they knocked me grounders and they got your flies and you had to go, and I was really on that day I was picking them up, but I got a dirty bounce and it cut my eye there. So the chaperone came out and �a nurse and they (09:00) said we have to have you get some stitches and I said “I’m not going anyplace until I’m finished,” I said “put a band aid on it and I’m going back out”. And I did, I was lucky because I did very well that day. And so, then allocation came and this huge room I had never seen a room this large and all of these girls in it, and we are all trying to make the league. And I can remember sitting there and trying to listen for my name. It wasn’t coming and I thought oh my gosh, I tell you when I heard my name I was the happiest girl in that whole building, because that meant I made the league. So that I will never forget and even talking about it I kind of get goose pimples because I was so excited and there were girls crying because they didn’t make it or they were being traded or so on and so forth, but I was happy. (10:00) Interviewer: “So let’s go back over the story, and let’s talk about it” Well I got to Pascagoula and we worked very hard for two weeks I remember it was so hot and coming from Canada you know it was cold there in April and I got down there and I worked very very hard, then came allocation day and I had never seen a room that big in my life and all of these girls there are all trying to make the league and so anyway they sent me out to short stop and all of the managers, there was one knocking balls as hard as he could, making you run for it and all of this. And I did really well, but I had a dirty bounce and it cut my eye, on my head (11:00) and took me off, the nurse and the chaperone says I think you might need some stitches. I said put a band-aid on it, I’m going back out and I’m going to finish. And I often thought, maybe they thought there is a gutsy kid. You know? I don’t know, but anyway I heard my name and I can tell you I was so excited. I was so happy I could hardly wait to tell my dad and my mother. So I made it. And then they told me I was going to be with the Peoria Red Wings I was pleased because that was a brand new team we were adding. So we were sort of, you know there were a few veterans on it, but I made this Peoria. Great team, great group of gals so… Interviewer: “How was your first season? You were a rookie. ” I was a rookie. Interviewer: “So did you play very much?” I did, really, for, I filled in a lot of places. You know there were only 15 girls to a team (12:00), and so you know if a girl was hurt or wasn’t feeling well I went in. And I can tell you one time, our catcher, our regular catcher broke her finger and our manager Leo Schrall came to me and said, “Terry have you ever caught?”, I said “Leo, I’ve never caught”. He said “Well you’re going in”. I said “Okay I’ll do the best I can”, he hands me this great big mitt and I said “Leo I can’t use that mitt”, I wouldn’t catch the ball it had this big great fat bit. He said “Well, what are you going to do?” I said “I’ll use my infield glove”. Well I’ll tell you I never forget that day, that day went 19 innings and it was April 19, 1948. I’ll never forget it because the next day was my birthday and my knees were mighty sore from catching. And the game was called at midnight �because the next day (13:00) was Sunday and we couldn’t play into a Sunday. That was my first experience of catching and I ended up liking the position very well and I did finally get a good glove. But my hand was mighty sore, with the infield glove but I loved that glove, I still have it. Interviewer: “You had mentioned earlier about playing utility, could you explain what that meant?” Well that meant, I could play any of the positions and fill in whenever a girl was not well or somebody was hurt. But I never pitched, and I never played first base. Interviewer: “Where did you stay your first season?” I stayed with a couple in Peoria, Mr. and Mrs. Turnball. I tell you I can’t tell you how good it, I can tell you I ended up calling them my United States parents, and I stayed with them all the time I played in Peoria. And I saw them until the day they died and passed away. They were just like family to me. (14:07) Interviewer: “What was the experience of being away from home I mean you had a good family life and suddenly you were out in the middle of nowhere so to speak… ” Oh, I had a wonderful happy life. But I was playing the game of my dream. And I, you know we were playing every day and if we weren’t playing we were out practicing, I loved it, I loved it. So I often think you know, some of the girls got homesick. I never got homesick because I knew I was playing, I was where I wanted to be. And I sent mother and dad the daily paper so they saw and read all the games. Interviewer: “That’s wonderful. You were making pretty good money for someone your age for one thing.” Yes, I should say so, and for that time. Interviewer: “So did you send money home, or how did you do that?” No, I built my little bank account in Peoria. I had my first contact for 50 dollars which was a lot of money in those days. I think a lot of us were making more money than our poor fathers, you know. (15:09) Interviewer: “What was your social life like the first year?” Well it was, you know there were a lot of nice guys watching our games and wanting to go out. I remember you know it was very tempting but we had to get the okay by the chaperone. And sometimes I wasn’t too happy with “You know, I don’t think you better Terry”, or you �know…well anyway yeah it was, I got to tell you the people of Peoria were wonderful. They would have us for lunch, the directors were, you know they would have a boat and take us up the, I forget the name of the place in Peoria but they were all so nice to us. You know, it was a good social life. We would play. (16:04) Interviewer: “Did you think, you made it very clear about how excited you were about playing professional baseball,” Oh absolutely. Interviewer: “and I realize this was a tough question because it was a long time ago, but were you thinking, you know this is what I’m going to be doing for my professional career 10 years from now, 5 years…?” You know, I never thought about it ever ending, I never thought about maybe someday I could never play this game. I was living; I guess for the moment, I don’t know I was so happy. But I never thought about that ending. I thought it was just go on and on and on. Interviewer: “When you got back home from your first season, was there any discussion with your parents about your future and what you were going to be doing?” When I got, after the first season I went back home and I took my dad a cap and they had the newspapers and dad and I would sit and talk for hours and they were on the farm (17:05). And after I got home and visited with them and saw family and friends I went into Moosejaw and got a job and then worked in there until the next spring and then I would come back down to the states. Interviewer: “Now, I want to get back. Where did you work?” I worked at a department store. Interviewer: “Did they know that you were a baseball player?” Yes and the manager was very proud, very supportive. Interviewer: “So there was a certain amount of publicity then about the team and you say that your parents, your father was reading the newspaper. Was there article about your team and things like that?” Yes, in the newspaper. Interviewer: “Okay, so you were kind of a local celebrity.” Yes, I guess you could put it that way. And Dad was very proud. �Interviewer: “So how did you know you were going to be playing another year, did they send you a later?” We would sign another contract. Interviewer: “Okay, so a contract was sent to you.” Exactly. (18:00) Interviewer: “Okay, now this time you could sign it on your own because you were 18?” Yeah you know, there was no question then. Even mother was approving. Interviewer: “So, what was the second season like?” Oh gosh, I could hardly wait to get back down, you know. It was just wonderful. I wasn’t a rookie anymore, and so there were rookies coming in. And I’ll tell you when they rookies came in I was the first one there to greet them because I was a rookie and I knew. The thing was that it was a new team that first year I played. So it wasn’t like going into a team where there were veterans, and you know there were…so the girls were really very nice. But I was always the first one there to greet a new girl coming in. (19:00) Interviewer: “What was the uniform like?” Oh my, well playing in those dresses and skirts was something else. Especially for sliding, but Mr. Rigby wanted us to look like young ladies, and play ball like men; and that’s exactly what we did. I’m going to tell you that because Peoria was the first year, the people thought that they would go out and get a good laugh and see this novelty of these women playing in skirts. We had a full house well they weren’t laughing when they saw how well we played, and I can say this because my landlady and landlord had never seen a game, I don’t think. They came out to have a good laugh, and they never missed a game after that. So, we won them over. Interviewer: “You mentioned about the dress and all of that, how difficult was it to play in that?” (20:00) Well, it was kind of a full skirt. I think it bothered the pitchers more than any of us. They would wind up and the pitchers and it was sort of pen over there skirt because it was so full. And actually we got used to it and it wasn’t so bad. �Interviewer: “Well some of them said that they made alterations because I remember one of you made a wonderful statement and said ‘I reached down to get the ball and all I got was dress’” Yes, well it was very full and it did bother the pitchers. Interviewer: “Did you make any alterations or anything like that?” I didn’t on mine. Interviewer: “Okay, so” And you know they gave us the satin shorts to where under the, but and then they gave us pads for sliding but they shifted and no one every used them that I know of. (21:00) Interviewer: “Oh okay. Wow. Okay.” But we did have the strawberries. And thank goodness for the chaperones, they were wonderful. Interviewer: “So you had a few strawberries yourself?” Oh, yes. Interviewer: “Oh my gosh, my gosh.” But you know, I don’t think anybody really minded. The chaperones were great and they. Interviewer: “They were responsible for cleaning the wound?” They were wonderful women, yeah. Interviewer: “I heard that it stung quite a bit though when they put that… ” Oh yeah, when they would put that stuff on it, it would sting. Interviewer: “Oh my gosh.” Interviewer: “Let’s get back to the second season.” Okay. Interviewer: “Did you stay in the same house with those two people that you said were so wonderful, did you stay in the same house the second year?” Yes. �Interviewer: “So they knew you were coming back.” Oh yes, I stayed all four years there. Yeah, and then I was just part of the family. You know you had to pay for our room (22:03) and go out for our meals. Well it got so they wouldn’t even take my money for my room. They were just terrific. They had no children, and they just took me over. They were wonderful, wonderful people. Interviewer: “Now you were staying by yourself or did you have a roommate?” I stayed, I had a roommate and she was traded, and then I stayed quite awhile by myself and then another girl came to town and needed a place and she came and stayed there also with me, and they liked her too. So, I think that most of the girls had wonderful places to stay and the people were so nice. Interviewer: “So the end of your second season, you come back home again, and you are working in the same place” Yes, yes, my boss was so good, he said “Terry anytime you want to come here again the doors open” Interviewer: “That’s wonderful.” So he was wonderful (23:00). So being a Canadian, to keep in shape I played girls hockey. So when I came down in the spring I was in shape. My legs were in good shape and I was ready to go. So that was a good advantage for me. Like the California and Florida girls they were in shape they played all winter. But I played girls hockey and kept in shape. Interviewer: “Tell us about your manager, how was your manager?” Our first manager was Johnny Gottselig, he was a famous hockey player. I don’t know if he was the first, maybe he was. Then we had several others and then we had Louis Schrall and he was from the university there. So we had good managers. They taught us a lot, you know Leo taught us the sliding. Interviewer: “I was going to ask that, because you came from a baseball background, you already knew how to play, but you never played professionally, formally, and some of the girls said that there were things that they taught you that either you had a bad habit from before, didn’t realize it was a bad habit, was there things that they taught you that you thought ‘Oh I should do it this way.’?” (24:16) I can’t recall anything. But when I played in Moosejaw and there was an excellent league and there was excellent coaching. I think that that was to our advantage too. We had very good coaching in Moosejaw. �Interviewer: “Now did your manager treat you like a woman, or did he treat you like a baseball player?” Oh, he was tough, you know. I think you treated us like a baseball player. I mean, he didn’t baby us, and we could take it. I mean we had to read the rules and we would get on that bus and he would question us. So I think you know he was, I think he was treating us more like a baseball player, which was great. (25:00) Interviewer: “How were the road trips?” Oh gosh. We would finish a ball game and shower and get on that old bus. And if we lost, we it was very quiet, and if we won we would still for a hundred miles. You know, I never ever heard anybody complain about the road trips. But I, you know we couldn’t wear slacks, we would get on the bus we would get in our jeans and traveling all night, but if we stopped we had to get out of those jeans and put on a skirt. We not even, I can remember several nights we’d stop and we would have to get on our skirt. And Mr. Rigley wanted us to look like ladies, and we did. Interviewer: “You were very young of course, the fact that you were doing a road trip all night. The next day, what was your day like? In other words you were on the bus all night you arrived and it’s the town you are going to be playing. Walk us through what you had to do, you went to sleep? Or you… ” (26:11) Well yes, we would get into a hotel. Like if we were traveling form Peoria to Muskegon, which is a long ways, we would get into the hotel and get a couple winks of sleep and sometimes he would get us out there earlier before a game for more running and so on, and sometimes we would have to go out for a work out in the morning. It all depended on how things were going. If we weren’t winning we would have to get out there and practice. But those bus trips and we look back on them now and they were fun. Interviewer: “Yeah, you had mentioned about the fans the first year, they come out kind of laughing and you proved them wrong. How were the road trips, in terms of the road trips going to other towns how were the fans?” (27:03) They were great too, I’m sure the same thing happened there. We always had good crowds. I think that it was 1948 we drew a million people, the league. And then in 1947 we trained in Havana, Cuba. Interviewer: “Tells about that.” �That was exciting. Interviewer: “Well you had never been out of the, well I was going to say that you had never been out of the country, but you are from Canada!” So we get into Cuba and we trained there. Oh it was hot. And we trained there very hard for two weeks and this was before Castro. I can remember one day they told us to bring sandwiches into the hotel because we were not going to practice or go out the next day because the army was walking down the streets. I can remember it was scary. Anyway the Brooklyn Dodgers were training there at the same time we were (28:00) and we outdrew them. They came over and they said “What is going on over here?”, and when they saw how well we played they couldn’t believe it. Dottie Kamenshek, was the first baseman for Rockford Beeches. They said if she had been a man they would have offered her $50,000 on the spot. In those days that was a lot, but that was a fun time. Interviewer: “You played against Cuban teams?” No, we played, we played, well we were playing against, you know our league. Interviewer: “Just like you would if you were in the states, okay.” Yeah. Interviewer: “I know a couple girls got recruited out of Cuba” Yes, yes. And we had a couple on the Peoria Red Wings. And they were fun, fun gals and in fact I think we have one Cuban woman here. Interviewer: “I think we have done her interview already” (29:00) Yeah and she’s very funny. Interviewer: “Yeah, so your trip to Cuba, you come back. Now you are in your third season, now isn’t it about this time that the ball changed? ” Yes, in 1948 we went to side arm. So it wasn’t side arm, some of the girls were still going the windmill; side arm came out in 1948. Then a couple more years and the overhead took over. Interviewer: “How about you, how was that transition for you?” Well I tell you; at that point I was doing more catching. I was talking about 1949, it was overhead, almost completely overhead by then. And I was doing more catching. And in the 1950, I signed my contract for 1950, and I did not sign it because by that time they had lengthened the �bases (30:00). Every two years they would lengthen the bases and make the ball smaller. And they changed the size of the ball 6 times, from the 12 inch to the…I think it was 194-, I didn’t sign the 1950 contract. As it was I had an opportunity to go into Chicago and I was offered a contract to play fast pitched in Chicago. Because I was doing more catching, I thought that’s what I would do would go into Chicago and play professional there in the fast pitched because I was afraid my arm wasn’t strong enough. And it was a hard decision to make, but a lot of the girls came in. I know in 1950 in Chicago, we had several, I was on the team, and Sophie Curry, and Joanne Wenners. There was a lot of us on the team. (30:51) Interviewer: “This is outside of the league?” Yes. So that’s why I didn’t sign the 1950 contract, because of the distance and I didn’t feel my arm was strong enough. And I had the opportunity to go into the city. But it was a hard decision, because you know it was such a good league. Interviewer: “This is a paid, this is also a professional team? I didn’t even know about this.” Yes Interviewer: “And it’s outside of the All American Girls Professional Baseball League?” Yes. Yes. Interviewer: “It was a fast pitched, professional women’s team.” Yes, well you know by 1950 the boys were coming back from service and people had more money and there were more things to do. So, I believe the, the attendance wasn’t as big as it used to be, so that was my decision. I think it was the right one, for the simple reason that I didn’t think my arm was strong enough and I was doing more catching. But it was a tough decision. (32:02) Interviewer: “How long did you stay with the fast pitched?” Two years, and then, but in Chicago you could get a job and play because we didn’t play outside the Chicago area. I got my job, and I was playing at night. And I liked my job so well that I finally just quit playing and so I played there, I worked there 38 years and then I retired. Interviewer: “I have to know, what, with the enthusiasm you had for playing baseball, what job could possibly replace?” �Well I think I finally realized that the time has come. I was Canadian, and it was….I thought I might play longer in the Chicago area. I got my job, and I was doing well there. And then in the contract if you were hurt, you were responsible, and I thought now well maybe it was time to make the change. It was hard. (33:04) Interviewer: “What job did you take?” I worked with an interior design firm, was a very very good one. We hired architects and designers and I was in the business end of it. I liked my job, I was there 38 years. Interviewer: “Where did you get the training to do something like that?” I went to night school because I never had the opportunity to go to college. And I got my job, went to night school and it all worked out, I was very fortunate because I love the people I worked with. But I got to tell you that I couldn’t go to ball game that first year, because I wanted to be out there. It was hard. Interviewer: “Did the, did your coworkers know you were a baseball player?” (33:58) No, I never talked about. Nobody knew that I had played professional ball. If I had told them they probably thought that I was crazy, so let me tell you, when that movie started all hell broke loose. Oh, phone was ringing, they wanted to interview, television and radio. It was incredible but very exciting. Interviewer: “What was your reaction to that?” Well we were excited, but I can tell you there was 50 of us girls, met all the stars and starlets in a hotel in [Muskogee]. We had to tell them about our experiences and help them throw a ball and so on. And of course Madonna threw just like a girl, and oh we thought, and we got very upset to think that they had a Madonna in that movie, because we didn’t have a Madonna in our League, and we told them so. And they said that they had her under their thumb and she had a very small part. Well anyway, it ended up that we got to like Madonna, she was a pretty good gal, a hard worker. (35:12) Interviewer: “Well the combination of her and Rosie O’Donnell, really made that part of the movie. They were perfect with each other and for each other.” Oh absolutely, Rosie O’Donnell had the best ability. She could throw and catch. �Interviewer: “Well someone told me that she actually knew how to play baseball.” Oh she did, but Madonna, forget it. Oh, anyway it was pretty exciting because we got to beat them all. Interviewer: “I want you to think about this for a moment, you have gone years and years working in a place that you love to work, baseball is way behind you, suddenly this movie comes out, did you think what is all of this hoopla about? Or did you just think well, I guess people think this a pretty big deal.” Well we were I know I was very excited to think (36:02) that this movie was going to tell our story, which is something we love doing. We didn’t know how it was going to come out. We were very worried until we saw it, but when we saw it we were very pleased. Because it wasn’t a documentary as you know, it was a… Interviewer: “A Hollywood movie” A Hollywood movie, I remember going to Rockford and to see the movie for the first time with all of the girls there and we had tears, we were really excited. And except for that movie nobody would have known about it. When that came out, and the people at work couldn’t believe it, that I had played professional. So it was pretty exciting, oh goodness gracious. You know we were being interviewed, we weren’t talkers and we would never, it was incredible. People just wanted, I said well if you want an interview come to my apartment because we were running around like crazy, we all were. (37:13) Interviewer: “What is your reaction now that several years have passed since that movie? It hasn’t, it’s still being shown on television, and people still talk about it. I teach at the University, I get kids 20 years old as soon as I say ‘League of their Own’, they say ‘Oh yeah, I love that movie’ they may have seen it when they were a little kid. When I tell my students that I am doing a documentary about it them…oh my goodness, they think I am…see you have kind of rubbed off on me, your fame has rubbed off on me a little bit, they think that is the coolest thing.” I got to tell you a funny story. One day I had gone to mass that Sunday and I fainted and they hauled me off to the closest hospital and this at home in Chicago. Of course, they were checking me, they had me they were going for the heart and I can remember one day laying there and this little Puerto Rican nurse came in (38:09). And she said “Oh you are watching a movie”, happened to be A League of their Own, and I was laying there and I thought this is great I’ll get to see our movie. She comes in and I say “I’m watching a movie”, and she says “Oh what is it about?” and said “Oh it’s about the women playing ball in the ‘40’s, and I said I was one of those women and I tried to help Madonna throw a ball. Well I saw the look on her face, she turned around and went out so fast and pretty soon another nurse came in. She said “Oh you are watching a movie” and I said “Yeah”. So I told her the same thing. They thought I was crazy. �Then two doctors came in, and they thought well there is nothing wrong with this woman, that’s all they had. That was so funny. Interviewer: “Once again I want to get back to what is your reaction to all of this?” (39:04) We were overwhelmed, we were overwhelmed, really. We couldn’t believe that we were getting all of this attention. Because anytime you mention that movie people go crazy. I think we were really overwhelmed and so excited. Interviewer: “How is it now? It’s been several years and you have had a chance to realize that this whole country, if not parts of this world think that this is an amazing period of time and what you did was really extraordinary” Well even now I don’t think that it’s changed much since the first time it came out. You mentioned to somebody that you’ve played and you know they will see my ring and I might be paying a bill or doing something. “Oh, that’s a pretty ring”, you know and we’ll get talking and I’ll say “Have you heard of A League of Their Own?” and you tell them that you’ve played they just get so excited. It’s incredible. (40:02) Interviewer: “What do you think about that?” Well, you know what I can say, what I think, I think I was very fortunate to have had the opportunity to be able to play professional baseball with the All American League. I think that we were at the right place at the right time. I feel very fortunate. And to have played with such a great group of women, great group of women. I think that I’m glad Mr. Wrigley included the Canadians, and I think that we did prove that women can play professional ball as well as men; we can’t hit the ball as hard or as far but we can make all of those same plays and sometimes better, I’ve seen maybe a few. But, it is. I think we are very fortunate. Interviewer: “One of the things that is really impressive to me, is the number of you that have gone on beyond that period of time and have done, some of you became PhD’s, some of you worked, where does those few years fit into your idea of your life? It’s only a small part, but where does that fit in terms of your life?” (41:16) I think that playing in the All American taught me a lot. You know you are team player, you are team worker. You get along with people. I think that it did a lot for me and for all of us. I think it fit in very well. Interviewer: “Why did you come to the first reunion, why did you come to the reunion?” �Let me tell you, the very first reunion was 1982, in a Holiday Inn just east of Michigan Avenue in Chicago. And that I will never forget. We had to have name tags because some of us got heavier, some of us lost our baby fat, and that was a wonderful reunion. And every reunion was wonderful; but that very first one where we hadn’t seen one another for years and years was a great reunion. You know, I don’t say one was better than another, I think they are all great. It was so wonderful to see the gals you played, and it is just amazing how sometimes you can remember a play. I remember when I threw you out or something, so it’s been great. (42:35) Interviewer: “You have a family?” I never married. But I do have family which I love dearly and I’m going to be with them September 1, I’m going to celebrate my 85th birthday. They are having a big party. Interviewer: “How did your family react to the movie and all of the because before that they knew you were a baseball player, but not a big movie star?” (43:00) No, well my mother and dad of course on the farm, they never went to movies. By this time, when the movie came out my dad had passed away but my mother was living closer to my brother and his family and when that movie came out they gave all of my family a free ticket to go see this movie. And mother could hardly wait. When the movie was over she walked out with my nephew and she looked at him and said “I thought Terry played in a nice league”, because she mentioned Tom Hanks, so that was funny. So they were all very proud and very excited about it. Interviewer: “This is a big question, maybe you have thought about it, maybe you haven’t thought about it, I don’t know. But where do you think the All American Girls Professional Baseball League fits into the whole scheme of history, of American history?” (44:00) I think that it was an important thing at that time, because of the war I think that we did help people have a place to go and watch us play. I hope that it can continue. I think there are some young gals that are trying to get a team, I know I talked to them yesterday and I’m going to go and see them. But I hope it continues because I think there is a part. Interviewer: “What do you say to young people, when little girls come up to you and start talking to you?” Listen if you have the ability, and the desire and the love for the game, go for it, go for it. �Interviewer: “Any particular moments that you played that really stick out, what are the stories you tell while you are here at the reunion?” (45:01) I’ll tell you there is such a great group; we had such a great time but after one season there was three of us Canadians going back home. So we decided to go buy a car. We got $25 each and we bought this car for $75. And we took off for Canada. No, before we went on our last road trip we took the car into the mechanic, and said we just bought this car, we’re going to drive it to Canada when we got off our road trip. Just check it over, but we don’t want you to do anything to this car because we don’t want a big bill. So, we go off and come back from the road trip and we go back to the mechanics. “We fixed your car, it’s all ready to go”. We said “We told you not to do anything”. We said “Well how much is the bill?” he said “$2.50”. He put a new switch or something, you know. So anyway we took off for Canada. He said, “You will make it you don’t go more than 30 miles a day”. Well that was a fantastic trip. So that was one, you know, that was after the season. But, you know it was just things like this. You see them at the reunion and now we laugh about it. You know? (46:25) Interviewer: “Right, right. Any particular moments of the game that particularly stands out? Either a home run or did you catch something or is there anything you can remember?” You know, you hear this…there is no crying in baseball. I remember one night I was catching and a gal laid down a bunt, and I got the bunt and threw it to the first and it went miles over the first baseman. Do you think I had a tear? Yes I did. That was one. But I think catching the 19 innings, there were a lot of good moments. Peoria had never won a championship, but I can tell you we had a great team. Great team. Interviewer: “Who were the real challenges? What teams really gave you the biggest trouble?” (47:14) I think those 4 teams that started that always had good teams, like Rockford, Kenosha, Racine, and South Bend. They had good teams; I think they were the tough ones. Interviewer: “You know we are from Grand Rapids, all of us are from Grand Rapids.” Are you? Grand Rapids? I remember Grand Rapids. They were good too, the Chicks, oh yeah. Connie Wisniewski, the pitcher, oh she was good. She was one that went into Chicago later. But they were all good teams, they were all good. �Interviewer: “Well I want to just thank you so much.” You are all from Grand Rapids? Interviewer: “Yeah” (48:01) You never saw us play then, you are too young. Interviewer: “Too young for that I think yeah, yeah.” I remember Bill Allington who coached the Rockford Peaches had a movie and as far as I know that is the only one there is but one of the girls played it once at one of the reunions it was fun to see it… Interviewer: “Do you remember who it was that played it?” You know I can’t remember. Interviewer: “Because we are trying to find as much as we can for the film.” As far as I know Bill Allington was the coach of the Rockford Peaches, and I think it was the Rockford Peaches playing the Peoria Red Wings. I might be wrong about playing the Peoria Red Wings but there was, he had made a home movie at that time. I don’ think it was the whole game but I wonder who would know about it. Interviewer: “I’m going to start asking. But you said it was Bill Allington?” Yeah, oh he was the manager, of the Rockford Peaches. Interviewer: “Yeah” (49:07) Yeah. Interviewer: “We heard that there is a film of a whole game somewhere?” Well that could have been a whole game too. I can’t say yes or no, all I know that there was one, someplace along the way I saw clips of it, I’ll have to ask. Interviewer: “I’ve seen one which is a news feature at the time, so it wasn’t the whole game. But it was news, you know how the people would come out there and they would interview?” No, that wasn’t this. This was… �Interviewer: “This was a home movie, he…yeah” And there weren’t too many at the time. That would be a good one to get. Interviewer: “Yeah, absolutely.” I’ll certainly ask around too. Interviewer: “Please, I would really appreciate that. Did you go to the ball game yesterday?” Yes I was. Interviewer: “Tell us about that. What was that like.” Oh listen, the Chicago White Sox won. (50:00) Interviewer: “How was the baseball game?” Oh it was great but I tell you it was really hot out there. We left after the 6th inning. It just was so hot. Interviewer: “You guys were honored and brought out.” Oh, they were wonderful; we were honored and came out onto the field. They had a very good crowd, yeah. Interviewer: “Lots of applause.” Oh yes, all of these things are happening to us old gals, that’s what is keeping us young. Interviewer: “That’s wonderful. Just a quick question about, you said that it was difficult for you to even go to a game after you…” Yeah. Interviewer: “When did that change eventually? Did you go to ball games regularly after?” Yeah, after that I went there and I wanted to be out in it. And it was really hard. But I was going, I started night school, I was working, and I had made the decision that that was the proper thing to do. And as I look back I think I made the right decisions. Because even that league in the Chicago league, the boys were coming back from the service and the crowds weren’t so good either. Interviewer: “Well it worked out for you.” �It worked out, no complaints. And here we are. Interviewer: “You look beautiful, you do, you do.” Oh, thank you. Interviewer: “Thank you so much. It was a pleasure.” Thank you. And you are all from Grand Rapids? Interviewer: “Yup.” (51:37) �� Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Sports for women World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives Oral history Baseball players--Minnesota Baseball players--Indiana Baseball players--Wisconsin Baseball players--Michigan Baseball players--Illinois Baseball for women--United States Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-58 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Language A language of the resource eng Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-10-02 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-58_TDonahue Title A name given to the resource Donahue, Terry (Interview transcript and video), 2010 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Donahue, Terry Description An account of the resource Terry Donahue was born in 1925 in a farming community in Saskatchewan, and grew up playing baseball with her family and friends, and softball at school. At the age of fifteen, she was recruited onto the Moosejaw Royals, a women's softball team, and was spotted by American scouts from there and went to the All American Girls Professional Baseball League in 1946. She played four seasons for the Peoria Redwings, starting as a utility player and winding up as a catcher. She left the league in 1950 for a softball league in Chicago, and stayed there to work for an interior design firm. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) Video recordings All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives Baseball for women--United States Baseball Sports for women World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Baseball players--Illinois Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-08-06 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/fddee7221b89d7a379b24baf8aef4817.pdf b4352ab2dfb12b7d0ab189a2a3bf8b1d PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Operation Desert Storm Daniel Donnelly Total Time – (18:36) Background     Before serving in the military, he was in high school (00:21) He enlisted into the Navy He chose to be in the Navy o He enlisted with a friend (00:38) When he enlisted he was on the Navy Enlistment Buddy Program o It is affiliated with Major League Baseball teams  They took their oath at a Detroit Tigers game (01:15) Enlistment/Active Duty – (01:24)          Once the baseball game was done they got on a bus and traveled to Great Lakes, Illinois for boot camp (01:29) He was in submarine service in the Navy o He had departed for his deployment three days before Operation Desert Storm started (01:58) o He was out at sea when Operation Desert Storm ended He never saw any active combat (02:35) He served as an electrician and worked with nuclear propulsion operations (03:06) o He would deal with all electrical distribution on the submarine o He also assisted to start up and shut down nuclear plants When he would go on patrol, there were “fitness tests” for the submarines o There were also emergency blows that were tested for getting to the surface (04:34) He never had fear of claustrophobia aboard the submarines (05:26) While on the submarines, all of the food was non-perishable The soldiers on board the submarines would play cards or watch movies to pass the time (06:30) He had very limited contact with his friends and family o They were able to maintain contact through E-grams that had a limit of 150 letters (07:08) o They were allowed twelve on each patrol �    Holidays were never celebrated very often o Celebrations were generally through the patrols (08:13)  They would sometimes have gambling nights when they were halfway through their patrol He learned discipline and an ability to rely on others (08:46) Operation Desert Storm was not a significant even for his unit (09:36) o The soldiers day-to-day life changed very little He was able to make good friends on the submarine but does not stay in contact with many of them After the Service – (11:06)            After he left the service he went back to school (11:16) o He went to Grand Rapids Community College and received his Associate’s Degree o He was then accepted to the University of Michigan where he received his Bachelor’s Degree in chemical engineering (11:22) He went on to work at the Amway Corporation His experience during the service helped motivate him and get him “on a better track” (11:58) He believes the U.S. involvement in the War on Terror is important to secure American freedom He received the Navy Achievement Award for his service on the submarine (13:15) o He was in charge of 8-9 people He also received the Sea Service Ribbon for simply going out to sea (13:42) He received the Humanitarian Service Medal as well The Chief of the Watch was the highest position he could achieve on the submarine (14:43) o The Chief of the Watch was the officer in charge of many operations inside the submarine o He achieved this role but only stood for one watch (16:04)  It was a voluntary position He was on a Ballistic Missile Submarine (16:21) o In war-time situation there job was to remain undetected until they needed to use their weapons After the military he served in the National Guard o It was all during peace time (17:15) o He once did a maintenance operation in Germany He achieved an E-6 ranking � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Donnelly, Daniel (Interview outline), 2011 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Donnelly, Daniel Description An account of the resource Daniel Donnelly was a student in high school before he decided to enlist into the Navy under the Navy Enlistment Buddy Program. After taking his oath at a Detroit Tigers game, Daniel was sent to Great Lakes, Illinois for basic training. He departed for his deployment three days before Operation Desert Storm began and returned five days after it had ended. Daniel never saw active combat but served as an electrician and worked with nuclear propulsion operations aboard a Ballistic Missile Submarine. After the service, Daniel received his Associate's Degree from Grand Rapids Community College and a Bachelor's Degree in Chemical Engineering from the University of Michigan. After school he began working at Amway Corporation where he remains an employee. Daniel believes his experience helped motivate him and get him on the right track in life. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Seper, Paul (Interviewer) Seper, Laurie (Interviewer) Ruhlman, Ben (Interviewer) Caledonia High School (Caledonia, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings United States. Navy Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-11-09 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DonnellyD1358V Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7403efbd87a4b34333b57ec839d8f314.pdf 9349c87cd2e37e0c1da8999c3eb3ceff PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Vietnam War James Donnelly? 13:53 Introduction (00:22)    James was originally from Saginaw, Michigan. When he received his draft notice, he had just come home from his 2nd shift job and his mother was crying and she had the letter in her hand. She handed it to him and when he opened it and read it he learned that he was being drafted. He was 19 years old. He had only been out of high school about nine months. (02:23) James was drafted into the United States Army. Military Service (02:30)               It was hard to adapt to military life because he had never been away from home. He felt lost in basic training and he needed to find someone who knew the ropes. James felt that way for a few months until he was able to acclimatize himself to army life. Basic training consisted of physical exercise and lots of classes. Some of the training was field exercises at [Camp Willis], they had land navigation classes that were tested in the field. This was in San Antonio, Texas. (04:50) In Vietnam, the climate is hot and humid and very tropical. While there, James did not go out in the field, but instead served as a medic within the compound that he was stationed. When he first went into the service, he took initial tests and he qualified for medical training. (06:12) He was able to keep in touch with his family while gone, using a MARS (Military Auxiliary Radio System). This would relay calls to Hawaii and then on to your home state. This was not done often because it was very expensive for the people receiving the call. James spent fourteen months in country, and was there in 1970 and celebrated Thanksgiving and Christmas in Vietnam. At that time in Vietnam it was towards the end of the war and the troops were beginning to be brought home. (08:42) James was sent home in November 1971. When he arrived back home, he never felt like he was being treated poorly like many other Vietnam vets were. (10:33) James thinks that it was happening, but he just did not realize it. He was given a lot of help from the Unemployment Agency and he was able to pick the job of his choice. Adjusting back to life in the states was not too hard for him, but home life was different because he was more independent and knew what he wanted to do. Almost immediately after being home, he lost touch with the men he served with. (12:34) � While in the military, James learned to appreciate his family more, especially his parents. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Donnelly, James Francis (Interview outline), 2013 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Donnelly, James Description An account of the resource James was drafted into the United States Army in 1970 and spent fourteen months in Vietnam as a medic. He was able to stay on his base and never went into the field. He returned home in November 1971. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Michaud, JJ (Interviewer) Caledonia High School (Caledonia, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2013-03-28 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DonnellyJ1500V Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7b2e59588753d4a0f91ba7cd7eb80654.mp4 0c84c718b95518d4b0381c43bf767aa1 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/49189ef3b7178dd5e81f6200cf2c44c9.pdf 2dec4e5aa71b2d3d994e5189bd709663 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project William Donner (00:24:12) (00:26) Pre-Service Born Leelanau Co., MI, on a farm 2 younger bros Grad Traverse City HS Worked MI Milk producer association (45 years) as product tester (1:10) Service Drafted at 23, during Korean War, didn't want go. Summer 1951 at Camp Cook April left San Francisco for Japan At Camp Cook Sept. - April Medical training, by merit of former profession, link dubious,; worked KP and Guard duty as well In Korea, worked 4 miles behind lines as medical evac Arrived in Tokyo, moved to Honshu, remarks on Khoi pond (not his word) Helped as helo evac. Fever from rat bites, mortality of 6%, sent live sample to lab. Divisional CO trying to secure promotion, causing causalities Often set up near rivers GI's naked in river. Suffered severe dysentery Venereal disease among GI's required circumcision, penicillin shoots. Instance of cabin, mother and daughter provided sexual services to GI's (16:15) Impressions of Seoul, Japan and US Army Converted to Catholicism in Japan Locals asked for religious medals Friendly fire incident destroyed plane Returned home via Japan � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Donner, William (Interview outline and video), 2007 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Donner, William Description An account of the resource William Donner is a native of Northern Michigan. Donner worked in agriculture until the Korean War, at which time he entered the United States Army and was trained in medical evacuation. He describes his experiences as a GI on the Korean peninsula and the Japanese home islands. Donner discusses venereal disease and interactions with the natives. Donner converted to Catholicism while in Korea. He returned to agriculture after release from sevice. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Video recordings Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2007-08-16 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DonnerW Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/29e74ae2cbcbbd32c0975fb437c08e2e.mp4 0bf5e3bef3799a6a1622dc00e27a71cf https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8ded1b5182f5895b2e11bd487afe22af.pdf 87dbf7a9b54bb397a7a7588c9d61781a PDF Text Text Living with PFAS Interviewee: Emily Donovan Interviewer: Dani DeVasto Date: June 18, 2021 DD: I’m Dani De Vasto and today June 18, 2021 I have the pleasure of chatting with Emily Donovan, hi Emily. ED: Hi. DD: Emily can you tell me about where you’re from and where you currently live. ED: Yeah, so I am originally from South Carolina. I'm currently living in North Carolina and I’ve been a resident of North Carolina for, little over half my life now. I live in Brunswick county, so I live in a town, Leland, we’re right outside of Wilmington. And we’ve been here for going on almost twelve–over twelve years now. DD: Ok, Emily can you please tell me a story about your experience with PFAS or with PFAS in your community? ED: Yeah, so three years after moving to this area my husband started losing his eyesight and we didn’t know what was happening. We were terrified, we thought he was going to go blind. He had an MRI and this was around our ten year anniversary because he did the MRI and then we went on vacation, and I just remember that experience as having this kind of dark cloud looming over us. We get back and we find out that he had a brain tumor and it needed to be removed immediately or he would lose his vision permanently. So we did all the things, found a really amazing neurosurgeon, got the tumor removed and miraculously his vision was fully restored. We met with the surgeon six months after the surgery and the surgeon just looked at us–and this was literally the world's best skull based neurosurgeon, he was from Japan and had a teaching facility at Duke university, and he looks at us, and he’s like I’m good but I’m not that good. [Chuckles] That is–that is God and I had always kept that memory. I mean it was a very traumatic experience for our family but at the same time, just remembered that miracle because you hear about them but you don’t ever feel like you–would you recognize one if it happened to you. So that happened and then we fast forward to 2017 which was probably five years maybe six years later and I wake up and–actually it was in June, and so wake up to a news story that there’s a chemical plant upstream of Wilmington and they’ve been dumping large quantities of PFAS into the Cape Fear River, which it turns out is our drinking water supply. I didn’t know any of this so I start doing all of this research and like everyone else in our community, we're scrambling and we’re pulling together and we’re sharing information, and we’re reaching out to scientists. And I can’t help but wonder if what caused my husband's brain tumor was tied to these industrial chemicals that have no business being in tap but were in our tap water. And not just in questionable amounts these are insanely large amounts. I think a scientist did a study of a sample that he had taken in 2014 at the–the kind of the height of the contamination and one hundred and thirty thousand parts per trillion was recorded. It’s still questionable in my mind, it's 1 �unclear, was that just the PFAS’s that he could detect with where science is at right now, because the one thing that we are learning too, is that these labs can’t fully detect all of the PFAS, because they don’t have analytical standards for them. So there’s still this question mark of how much we were exposed to. It also was–it also started coming more into focus you know not just of what happened to my husband but, you know, my daughter’s childhood best friend. Her mother had breast cancer, at a very young age. She was in the military and then lived in this area. Her parents both developed rare blood cancers or diseases within months of each of other, and we were all living in the same neighborhood. And then I at the time was a youth director at a very small church and in our program I would you know end every evening that we met with prayer requests, and I just started realizing that we were praying for some very serious problems in these teenagers' lives. A father who had terminal brain cancer, bone and brain cancer. A mother who had colon cancer. A sister or a brother who had intestinal disorder and was so severe that he was hospitalized. So there was just all of these things, there was a kid in my youth group who didn’t even know his mother because she died of breast cancer before he was–right when he was born and so you know I just started looking around and this seems like too much disease, too much illness. I didn’t even have to go outside my inner circle to hear stories. And that just kind of resonated with me and furthered solidified that something needed to be done. Someone needs to speak up, so I helped–I was part of a group that formed in our region called Clean Cape Fear and we are a grass roots all volunteer coalition and we have just focused on trying to hold elected leaders, government bodies, and pretty much everyone including ourselves accountable. With a focus on making sure the polluter pays, and in this case the chemical company was DuPont which then spun off to Chemours. DD: And how is that work going? ED: It's been a really interesting journey, and I think–I feel like things are going good but you know I have very high standards of what I think a resolution should be. I think, you know, in a perfect world this chemical company, regardless of its name, should be making communities whole again. For the devastation and harm they caused, and we still don’t have safe drinking water. My tap water, our utilities, still record some of the highest levels of PFAS in the finished water that comes out of my tap, in the nation. But my work, what I’ve done is, I’ve testified before Congress twice. I testified in August of 2018 and then again in July of 2019. I organized to bring community members with me in July 2019 and meet with representatives, and that was a really positive experience. The community members that came convinced our local congressional representatives to cosponser the PFAS Action Act and make it a bipartisan bill. I know they weren’t the only ones that made it a bipartisan bill there were others, but that was positive to see that happen. We also, when we formed Clean Cap Fear, we–the first thing we did was host the first ever public forum on GenX. Because GenX is what was in the news it was supposed to be the PFOA [Perfluorooctanoic Acid] replacement. So everyone’s like what’s GenX and then we come to find out that really it’s not just GenX but it's all PFAS. So I think one positive thing that my group has done is we’ve shifted the focus away from a chemical by chemical approach and we’ve changed the narrative to let's talk about this class of chemistry. We really worked hard and intentional to do that. We noticed early on, one of the things when we sat around this dinning room table and were figuring out what we needed to do as a community. We realized that information was important and getting accurate information, that the chemical industry for–not just the chemical industry, but industry in general has a play book. We see it 2 �with tobacco and we see it with oil and gas and the same thing is happening with these chemicals, is that they play this game of hiding the information and making–casting doubt and making it really difficult for communities to advocate for themselves so we felt it was important to really bridge that gap of reliable information and so we focused on having public forums because there was so much silence and confusion and a lot of misinformation getting spread online, and we’re like let’s get scientists in front. Let's get scientists and medical experts, let's get the experts in front of the community and have some good conversations, and that's exactly what we did and in fact this is the–last week was the four year anniversary of our first public forum on GenX. So I don’t know, I mean obviously I don’t know if other forums were happening around the world in GenX, but I would like to think we were the first ever globally [laughter] on GenX. But it was a powerful standing room only event. DD: Wow. ED: And from that we had a second event and our second event was focused on equity and making sure this–that the information was communicated to all communities. Communities of color, low income communities, communities with English as a second language, and so we brought in a lot of nonprofits on our second forum and we made sure that everyone was networking and working together. That public officials, that the water utilities were working with the homeless community to just make sure that everyone understood. Hey, you know what, maybe we need to be careful about our tap water and we need to figure out how to get everybody access to what we feel is safe and comfortable drinking water. And then our third forum was really focusing in on the science and so we brought in a lot of scientific experts from the universities in North Carolina that had unlocked, uncovered or had been working on PFAS. And so they just really got into the weeds on that forum and by that time the media had caught on, and the media was starting to host their own public forums and so we were–there was just like a public forum on PFAS every week. And so by that point we felt like we had really initiated a concept and so we didn’t feel that we needed to host any more public forums so we just stepped back and let those continue. And so we started focusing on just network building, and alliance building, and coalition building and also just holding public leaders accountable and making sure that they did what they said they were going to do and not just talk a certain way and then act a different way. And so we’ve always just tried to maintain that perspective. Some other things that I’m really–you know I’m really proud of some of the work that we’ve done, is that we brought Mark Rufflo to town and we hosted two “Dark Waters” screening events, and so I worked really hard to make that happen. And we had–I did a ton of lobbying in D.C. and [chuckles] this isn’t even my job, I have a day job. My day job was working for–you know, building up a youth ministry, and I say was in the past tense because right before the pandemic in the beginning of January 2020, I actually retired from youth ministry and then I started working in communications for another local church so I’m still in the faith community. I just kind of shifted my gears away from doing teenage ministry more into helping communicate, with– digitally, with the church. So–but anyways in all of that I do this on the side [chuckles] this is kind of like my ministry and I think that’s what was happening is that I couldn’t really keep doing all of this, so I had to figure out what to do. So it kind of goes back to, that miracle that I felt my family had experienced when my husband’s eyesight was fully restored. It should have never been–he has twenty-twenty vision and we can’t explain it. And so I do feel that I have been called into this space to bring–to be the conscience and the humanity for society and remind 3 �public leaders that there’s a reason why you are elected. To remind scientists that the work is for the people, you know–that yes the betterment of humanity, and all aspects of humanity and that this work, you know even into the chemical industry to you know have a soul and make things right [chuckles]. So this is kind of the space that I keep trying to remind myself that I feel called to be in. I’ve also just done a–I know I didn’t go into to great of detail about the screening events but some really positive change that came from both of those events is that we got our attorney general to file a lawsuit against DuPont and Chemours seeking natural resources damages for the state. We’re kind of following up to see where that's at right now, because again there’s that accountability piece. And then we also saw the most PFAS legislation filed in the state legislature this cycle then we have seen ever, then we saw in 2018 when the legislature was supposed to be at the peak of our contamination story. So I really think that was a direct result of those screening events. So, North Carolina legislature woke up a bit about it. Unfortunately, North Carolina legislature did not progress the bills that were filed, so there was some really fantastic representatives in the house who filed some really good, thoughtful bills, and the party in control of the General Assembly right now, the Republican Party, did not move them out of the rules committee and so refused to advance them, and that has been really dissatisfying to watch. But again until we could convince the community that this is a voting topic, and not just our community, because our community is very aware that this is a voting topic, but it's the rest of North Carolina. We’re stuck, and we’re also know that behind the scenes the North Carolina Manufacturing Alliance which is the main hub that Chemours operates through is doing some heavy funding to make sure that their interests are maintained. So it's been a very eye opening experience to see how money flows through politics, to see how industry can capture public bodies, and can capture elected officials. But then also how industry can just capture the scientific narrative too, and so that has been an interesting experience. DD: Can you say any more about the kinds of legislation that were trying to be forwarded? ED: Yeah there was a Polluter Pays Bill, a local representative, Deb Butler, she had sponsored a Polluter Pays and basically it would have required any responsible party that put PFAS into a public source of drinking water was responsible for making sure that the utilities could filter it out. And so not putting the burden on the ratepayers, and it was pretty much a very specific bill that would have helped not just the Wilmington area because there are three utilities that have been impacted not–three utilities and three hundred thousand residents are impacted by this, but there’s also communities upstream along the Haw River that feeds into the Cape Fear River and Pittsboro, and their water district has high levels of PFAS that almost–I mean they’re just as high as our levels here, and that’s coming from the textile industry in Burlington, North Carolina, and so the concern is making sure that industry is being held accountable for what they’re dumping into these public bodies of water, because we can’t filter them out easily it requires very advanced technology to filter it out of the drinking water, and that’s very expensive. And as it stands right now Pittsboro residents, Brunswick county residents, CFPUA residents, Cape Fear Public Utility Authority, which is–it which services New Hanover county and Wilmington residents and then portions of Brunswick county residents are all having to pay for upgrades themselves because Chemours is refusing to do it voluntarily. That’s the big one, it did not go forward, and it did not have bipartisan support even with some–there’s republican representatives in our district who live in this contaminated area and they didn’t cosponsor–one of them didn’t cosponsor it. It was really odd like [laughter] this is why–what are your–who do 4 �you want to pay for this, it’s a real problem, and they’re just–yeah, there’s just no explanation for why he wouldn’t champion it or wouldn’t co-sponsor it. Because we had the Brunswick County representatives, our both republicans and they both co-sponsored it, they were like we’re on board [chuckles] so it just is such a bizarre situation. There were some other bills that would band–band PFAS and firefighting foam and that bill, I worked really hard with the state level coalitions to introduce that bill back in 2019 and it did not progress on in 2019. And I don’t know why because in Congress, Congress has already banned PFAS and firefighting foam, the military will no longer be using it. So it’s banned immediately from I believe training, and it will be banned completely from use by 2024, I’m not like–I can’t remember, I think that’s the date but I’m not sure. So the writings on the wall it’s inevitable, the military’s already doing it. Everybody sees how expensive it is to keep using this product, it’s a huge liability for the military, our military bases, it's a huge liability for municipalities to keep using it, so it seems like a no brainer North Carolina should actually pass this bill and go ahead and just fall in line with where the world is headed and they refuse to. The bill got resubmitted this past year and it was resubmitted by the Republicans but only as a lets catalog an inventory on firefighting foam. So it was not a firefighting band bill, it was a let’s have the state fire marshals create an inventory tracking system so they know exactly where it is but let's not touch–let’s let it still being used, and so that was just a little bizarre to me. There was movement in the house to get the bill to add banning it from training. So the house did eventually agree and pass their version that said fire fighting foam or AFFF would be banned from training and that was a modest win. But again it should be banned completely, especially when we see the military’s doing it. The Senate is debating it, and it’s my understanding that it's not going anywhere right now, but I haven’t checked in recently to see what the Senate side is doing. So this bill hasn’t been–it hasn’t fully passed, it hasn’t been signed by a governor yet. Other things, the only piece of legislation if we’re going back to 2018, so we found out in 2017 in June about our contamination. 2018 was when bills were submitted, and the only bill that got approved was this Water Safety Act Bill, and basically it gave the state agencies five million doallas to address PFAS. Compare that to Michigan, Michigan spent fifty million and North Carolina has like–DuPont and Chemours here, and they could–they only wanted to spend five million, and by the way North Carolina has a billion dollar rainy day fund. Like–is it a billion–I will have to double check, they have a massive rainy day fund and, they have the money, like there’s money they can use, it’s not that we’re a poor state at all, we're not. They just didn’t you know didn’t want to spend the money. That money was used, I believe–here’s where I have to like, I don’t want to misspeak, because I can’t remember everything that that bill incorporated, but it was modest, and it gave them–it gave money to establish a group the PFAS network which is North Carolina, education–like universities that are all supposed to start studying PFAS but the problem with doing that is that it didn’t give the state agencies like DEQ [Department of Environmental Quality] and DHHS [Department of Health and Human Services] authority to regulate. So even if the big thing that came from it is that they gave these independent scientists money to go and sample all the water supplies in North Carolina to find out where PFAS was, and so that’s good, we kind of want to be able to see it. But they wrote it in a way where they didn’t want utilities, they didn’t want any research to be done on the finished tap water only on the raw water. So it's just raw water sources that are being tested. And that’s fine that that’s being tested but DEQ can’t regulate off of any of that testing. So our DEQ said we still need a chain of command, we still have to do testing of our own in order to regulate. So that’s great that you’re letting us know but we’re still going to have to spend money and do our own work. So, it was kinda just like this silly–I mean I don’t want to 5 �call it silly because it’s great work what the scientists are doing, and the scientists just did some phenomenal work because they looked at more than just five or six, they were looking at, let’s open it up and do a wide view, you know a wide view and find out what we're seeing. So that was important for us to kind of see where it is, that was public surface water, I think they were then going to start looking at ground water across the state which is a little more tricky. And so I think they are working on that right now, but again in all of that in these four years the state of North Carolina still has not officially regulated PFAS. We do not have any drinking water standards for PFAS, we don’t have any surface water or groundwater standards for PFAS, we don’t have–any discharge limits or regulations set for PFAS. So nothing has been done in four years. On, officially and legally and that is frustrating because this is really just feeling like they’re running out the clock. It shouldn’t be that difficult to say, hey lets do something. There’s been a lot of back and forth on well, the federal government should do it, or the state government should do it. And there’s been a lot of waffling, and the most interesting thing is that the head of our EPA now was the head of North Carolina’s DEQ so secretary Regan, Michael Regan is now administrator of the EPA. Michael Regan–and super excited to see what he is going to do, and no one knows more about PFAS probably than he does, with his experiences here in North Carolina. The concern being will he act on PFAS because North Carolina was such a tricky place to be and we still don’t have regulations in North Carolina, will get regulations out of his EPA at the federal level. So there’s a lot of questions there and one other thing that I’ve done is I’ve partnered with center for environmental health, and we filed a petition to the EPA last year too [unclear here] to do human health and toxicity studies on fifty four PFAS that we documented we were exposed to either through our food, water, our air supply, or was in our blood. And the previous administration denied the petition and so we resubmitted the petition to the Biden administration, and we’re waiting to hear back and we also filed suit. So we are poised to go to court with the EPA regardless of you know which administration, just to show that this is something we feel should have been done. These chemical companies should be forced, or should be showing the toxicity data on anything that they make before they release it into the air, or the water, the soil, the food supply, you know this is just–it makes sense. You know you should have to get permission before you dump, not afterwards, but we understand that, the past is the past so let's fix it now. And it's my understanding that Chemours is actively fighting this. And so again it seems like Chemours says one thing publicly and then does one thing privately. Which is that they fight, they fight all these lawsuits there–my water district and Wilmington water district has been in an active lawsuit with Chemours for the last two or three years to get them to pay for utility upgrades, and they’re actively fighting it. And we are–and my coalision is working to get Chemours to pay for human health studies for the ones–the PFAS that we can document we were exposed to and they’re actively fighting against it [chuckles] so it's been a really not surprising journey because we knew they would play this game. But I know–what I think is interesting is will the agencies step up and do right by the public, you know who–what entities are they here to serve. Are they here to serve corporations or are they here to serve the American public, the taxpayers that pay for them because we are realizing that corporations don’t always pay their taxes, or you know find funny way to not pay taxes, but I’m paying taxes [chuckles], so I’d love to see this work for me, so. DD: So, you’ve hinted at this a little bit, but maybe you could say a little bit more. What concerns do you have about PFAS contamination moving forward? 6 �ED: Oh-gosh, this is where I get sad. Sorry [sniffle]. DD: I’m sorry. ED: Will I wake up one day and find out that something is wrong with my kids. And it was related to doing what I thought I was supposed to be doing as a parent, giving them water. You know our pediatrician–every time we would visit the pediatrician, they were like giving us–you know encourage to drink water, encourage to drink water, and you know we did that, oh my gosh my children love water. And for the last four years they have been afraid to drink water at their school. So you know there’s– I’m worried–yeah like I just don’t know–there’s mother doubt you know. Why didn’t we have a filter on our sink just as a precaution. There’s rage of why should we have a filter on our sink just as a precaution. And then there's an aching heart for those who simply can’t have filters because they can’t afford them. But like I see and read and talk to so many people that have to choose. They’re like I can’t keep buying bottled water, or I can’t keep filtering this out and keep paying for my utility bill. You know and so then there's this over rationalization of maybe it’s not that bad, maybe this isn’t an issue. But it gets kind of alarming when you read the studies and you see what the effects are, and the information is still emerging. So that’s the biggest one is, will we wake up in five or ten years and have major medical issues because we’ve had so many in the past, and that trauma comes back to the forefront of I don’t want to deal with another trauma, another medical problem, because it was really hard. I mean we got through it, people have been through worse, you know like I get that. This is avoidable, this is preventable, there is a solution to this problem, and it's just people having the courage to stand up and do the right thing so that’s what I worry about. Oh, there was one other thing, that, that I did that I am proud of that has been successful, is that we finally got two–we petitioned two school boards. I participated in an environmental working group tap water study and I pulled water from my children’s public school and it ended up being the top. The top of the study, and it ended up being an underreported moment because we get our water from the river so the levels fluctuate. So, when EWG [Environmental Working Group] called me and said you're at the top of this list and by a lot, I was like [we're by a lot?]. I was like okay so we had the highest levels in our tap water in my children’s schools and that’s not even a full representation of what I know is in the tap water. Because they used a commercial lab and our utility is also looking for Chemours compounds that weren’t included in that so. So we are always reporting higher than what some people will test for, and so I took that information to Wilmington–[or New Hanover?]county’s school board and I took it to Brunswick county school board and I got them to install reverse osmosis filling stations in all of their schools. So forty nine public schools at the start of last school year had reverse osmosis filling stations in every school so that children and teachers and staff could access healthy drinking water and its–I’m proud of it but I’m frustrated because Chemours should be doing that. You know and here a mom in Brunswick country you know whose [son and school teachers is begging people?]to do it. So, I’m happy it's done but sometimes it's bittersweet, but the person that’s doing it, you know it shouldn’t be just me, it shouldn’t be just my group, and by the way it wasn’t just me. I have a really fantastic team of supporters–a leadership team that I work with–so yeah again I have to state that it is not just me this whole Clean Cap Fear is a collaborative effort, and there is a lot of people who make the work I couldn’t do it alone. 7 �DD: For sure. Before we wrap up today, is there anything else you’d like to add that we haven’t touched on or anything that you want to go back to and say more about? ED: No, I could talk for hours about this [laughter]. It’s been a long journey, it's been a good journey. I do want to mention too that the national PFAS contamination coalition, this is–that has been really great group to be connected to. It’s other community groups just like mine across the country dealing with similar contamination stories. Whether it's industrial or military and I’m just grateful to lean on them because I think this whole experience is–it can get isolating if you think you’re doing it alone. You know and advocates are stronger when they can collaborate, and it's been really great to have that network of support. And so I think that is the biggest takeaway from this, is that coalition building has really worked, locally, we have a really strong coalition. There's a strong coalition at the state level and then this national coalition to be a part of so it's been a really, really important for emotional health and mental health when you're going through a contamination crisis and you’re trying to advocate for better solutions. DD: Absolutely, thank you so much Emily for taking the time to share your story today. ED: I appreciate it, thank you for having me. 8 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Living with PFAS Interviews Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Devasto, Danielle Description An account of the resource Beginning in 2021, the Living with PFAS interviews were recorded to gather the personal stories of individuals impacted by PFAS contamination. PFAS, or per- and polyflourinated substances, are a large group of human-made chemicals used widely since the 1940s to make coatings and products resistant to heat, oil, stains, grease, and water. They can be found in countless household items, including food packaging, non-stick cookware, stain-resistant furniture, and water-resistant clothing. These chemicals are often called “forever chemicals” because they do not break down easily, can move through soils and contaminate drinking water sources, and build up in animals, plants, and people. PFAS have been linked to increased incidences of various cancers, increased cholesterol, decreased fertility, birth defects, kidney and liver disease, and immune system suppression, and thyroid dysfunction. It is estimated that PFAS are in the drinking water of more than 200 million Americans (Andrews & Naidenko, 2020). In Michigan alone, over 280 sites have PFAS contamination exceeding maximum contamination levels for groundwater (MPART, 2024). Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Living with PFAS (project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Personal narrative PFAs (Perfluorinated chemicals) Groundwater--Pollution Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DC-11 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf audio/mp3 Type The nature or genre of the resource Motion Picture Text Sound Language A language of the resource eng Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context PFAS0015 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Donovan, Emily Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021-06-18 Title A name given to the resource Emily Donovan, 2021 (Interview video and transcript) Description An account of the resource Emily Donovan is originally from South Carolina, but has lived in North Carolina, near Wilmington, for almost 12 years. In this interview, Emily discusses how her husband's sudden loss of sight led doctors to identify a tumor. A few years later, the Wilmington area was identified as a PFAS contaminiation site. Since then Emily has been involved in community action for PFAS awareness. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource DeVasto, Danielle (interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Personal narrative PFAs (Perfluorinated chemicals) Groundwater--Pollution Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Living with PFAS (project) Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ec4f9dca451aabc66c0502d7a3f6489d.mp4 8c2e87b8dc559479f39329b530671e35 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b891300ec92508dc2db3be2ec99ad19d.pdf 60ea283bbfb9bbe8b41e202588c5e168 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Derk Doornbos World War II Total Time: 1:45:05 Pre-War (0:00:20) • • • • • Born in 1920 in Stannen, Netherlands. Moved to Chicago, Illinois when he was 6 months old. He then moved to Muskegon Heights, Michigan. Worked in a dairy farm when he was 15, and then worked in the Civilian Conservation Corps when he was 17. Volunteered for the Army in 1941. Training (0:07:35) • • • • • • Was sent to Battle Creek, MI and then to Camp Roberts, California. (0:8:10) Was at Camp Roberts when the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor. Was then sent to San Francisco, California and was assigned to the 15th Infantry Regiment of the 3rd Division. They would sometimes train in Port Lewis, Washington. (0:12:10) Was shipped from there to Tacoma, Washington and then to San Diego, CA and then to Port Orange, California. (13:14) In September, 1942 he was shipped to Camp Pickett, Virginia where they practiced landing on islands. Active Duty (15:10) • • • • • • • • • He was then put on a boat and shipped to Fedala, Morroco, where they took the city of Casablanca from the Vichy French forces there. Moved to Rabat, and stayed in Morocco for a while while they helped to liberate it. (0:19:30) Then crossed through Algeria and Tunisia. (0:20:23) They caught the tail end of the fighting in Tunisia, where he ended up in the hospital for malaria. (0:22:15) He was then sent to Sicily where they made a beach landing and took the island in one month. (0:25:25) They then landed at Salerno, Italy. (0:26:00) They fought through the Gustav Line in Italy, where the Germans and Italians had put up a heavy fight. (0:27:00) They were then counterattacked at Anzio by 5 divisions of Germans and other Axis troops for 4 months. They eventually broke through the Axis lines. (0:31:50) They marched into Rome and took the city without a fight. �• • • • • • • • • • (0:35:10) He was then shipped back to Naples, Italy where they were sent to Saint Tropez where he made his 5th landing of the war. (0:36:05) At the time of the Battle of the Bulge he was sent to Alsace to fight with the French 1st Army. (0:38:00) Was sent to an area near Switzerland to try to break through the German lines, and was also sent to the Saar area. He spent 190 days continuously fighting. Eventually, he finally crossed the Rhine at Worms. (0:39:40) They were part of the outfit that iberated Dachau Concentration Camp. (0:41:20) His unit was part of the unit that took control of Berchtesgaden. (0:45:30) They then pushed on to Raastadt, Austria and meet the Russians. He recalls the large numbers of Germans that were surrendering. Took a number of trips to Thionville, France to arrange for troops to come home. Was eventually allowed to come home in July 1945. He was flown home, which took around a month. Spends quite a bit of time on the DVD going though his collection of artifacts from the War. Post War (1:30:00) • After the war, he worked a number of jobs before he settled down and ran the sign department of the Ottawa County (Michigan) Road Commission. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Doornbos, Derk (Interview outline and video), 2008 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Doornbos, Derk Description An account of the resource Derk Doonbos was born in the Netherlands in 1920 and immigrated to the United States when he was very young. He served in the Army during World War II. He was trained as an Infantryman. He served in North Africa, where he caught malaria. He also served in Italy, fighting in Anzio and taking Rome. He was then sent to Southern France, where he landed at Saint Tropez. He also fought in northern France and into Germany and was part of the group that liberated Dachau. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource McCauslin, Kelly Spring Lake District Library (Spring Lake, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings United States. Army World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2008-03-08 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DoornbosD Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/219f62b64221bf0a5602606da6931317.pdf 698cdcb55628d91b7d24721eb0dd4f6f PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Grand Valley State University Special Collections Interviewee: Doug van Doren Interviewers: Shae Johnson, Daniel Gotshall, Derek Wolff Supervising Faculty: Joel Wendland Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 12/13/2011 Runtime: 00:58:09 Biography and Description Doug van Doren is a pastor of Plymout United Church of Chrrist and he is involved with the community in a number of areas. In this interview he describes experiences of discretionary practices and prejudice toward people of color in the West Michigan area. Transcript Derek Wolff: My name is Derek Wolff. I’m here with Dan Gotshall. Today is December 13, 2011. We are here with the Reverand Doug Van Doren. (To Doug) We are here today to talk about your experiences within the Civil Rights Movement in West Michigan. DW: Before we can do that, we have to get to your basic information. For the record, could you please spell out your full name? Doug Van Doren: Douglas, D o u g l a s Van V a n Doren capital D o r e n. DW: Thank you. Could you give me the date of birth and the place that you were born in? DVD: I was born in Adrian, Michigan, July 13, 1952. DW: Thank you. Could you just tell me briefly about your parents and any sibling that you might have? DVD: Parents are deceased. I have two older brothers and an older sister and a younger sister, so there are five of us all together. DW: What are their names? DVD: Chuck, Carol, Steve and Pat. DW: Ok, thank you. Are you married? DVD: I am married to Colleen Mahone Van Doren, and we have a fourteen year old son, Aiden. DW: Ok, thank you. Your education, going back to high school and did you attend college at all? Page 1 �DVD: Graduated from high school in 1970, attended Eastern Michigan University, graduated with actually a bachelor’s of social work from there in 1975 and then went to grad school at the University of Chicago at the Chicago Theological Seminary. Graduated with a Master’s in Divinity from there in 1978. DW: Ok, your community involvement, professions and any political affiliation or preferred political party. I’d imagine, and I’m sorry to cut you off here, your community involvement and profession that a lot of that is going to revolve around the Plymouth United Church of Christ. DVD: Right, I’ve been a pastor of Plymouth United Church of Christ since 1978 and I’ve been involved with the community in a number of areas. I’ve been a board member and am currently still a board member of the Grand Rapids Urban League. I’ve been involved with the board of and chaired Planned Parenthood of West Michigan. I’ve was involved with Concerned Clergy here in West Michigan and over the years a number of other local organizations and issues. DW: Ok, thank you. I guess, when did you first come to the West Michigan area. I came in 1978. DVD: I was born on the south-east side of the state, came here in the fall of 1978. DW: Ok, and you’ve basically been around the area with regards to, well essentially all of your life except for time spent away at school, correct? DVD: I’ve been in Michigan for that time. The first part, until seminary, was south-east Michigan. DW: All right, thank you. That clears that stage of this process. I guess what I’d like to talk to you first about is just your personal history within the civil rights movement as well, so can you just go back to a time; do you remember the first instance or involvement that you had within a civil rights movement? DVD: First direct involvement, I was after the big civil rights movement in terms of racial justice. I was a child, or at least Junior High, when King was active, so probably my first organized involvements were in seminary working with a number of African-American students just dealing with what appeared to be discretionary practices and prejudice in relations to how people of color were treated in UFC and parts of the seminary community. DW: Ok, I guess, how have you relayed some of those experiences to discrimination of sorts within the Grand Rapids community? DVD: Well, the more you see, the more you learn. And so, having direct involvement with people of color and their perspective began to shape my understanding; as a dominant class person you can’t experience or know those things directly, but if you listen carefully and if you’re trusted by minority folks in these situations then you can get a glimpse of what it’s like, how they see the world and stuff that we dominant culture people miss. So, I think that was probably, that learning process that is still going on of course, at that point. That also branched out into, we were working very hard with divesture issues in South Africa and I was working with that in seminary, which has a lot of links to local discrimination, to discrimination of African Americans here (U.S.). So when I came here I also continued the work, trying to get corporations and so forth to divest from South Africa, which we were successful with the city with some of its funds. Page 2 �DW: Thank you. Dan Gotshall: I guess what it is you think that you think kind of influenced you to go into this kind of area? DVD: That’s a great question; it’s a tough question of course. It’s a basic culture. My parents are, my father especially, they were politically in a different place, politically more conservative but socially they were, for them it was all about fairness and equality. In that regard, they both had a great sensitivity to that. Probably my mother especially, and so even though I don’t remember specific lessons about people of color and where I grew up there were very few people of color. I grew up in rural Michigan; still, that culture of fairness was really, really important in my family and then, my Christian beliefs, as a clergy, for me that is basic to the gospel. Justice, all are God’s children and so discriminating against people and setting up systems that discriminate against people is just anti-biblical as well as far as I’m concerned. DW: Do you ever infuse any of these personal beliefs and also, when you talk about Christianity, it’s just doing the right thing, trying to send the right message; do you infuse any of these into your sermons when you preach? DVD: Oh sure. The church I pastor is very socially active and it understands Christianity to be a liberation kind of a perspective and that Jesus really is the liberator in many kinds of ways. So, it’s central to my understanding of the gospel, therefore to my preaching. Hopefully it goes that way at least. DW: Let’s see here. Let’s talk about your upbringing a little bit as well. You mentioned you have multiple siblings. When you were growing up, did any of your siblings; did any of your family members, any of your friends, really just go through any discrimination against them, or anything along those lines? DVD: I grew up on a dairy farm in a rural community, a sizeable dairy farm. My oldest brother and sister are adopted, which may be, you know, sort of right from there it was clear there was no difference in terms of how valued or loved they were as compared to us, so maybe right from the beginning there was that sense of, you know, it didn’t matter ones origin and so forth, we were equally valued. I don’t remember, and in my family, we were dominant culture people, you know, we’re white, we were rural people. but were dairy farmers and the hierarchy of farmers is just crazy, but there’s a hierarchy there to so the dairy farmers were, as I look back at it, probably at the top of the hierarchy in that community. But, interesting, and actually I went to a one room school house for the first four years of my life, and in the Adrian area there is a fairly large number of people who settled there having been migrant workers, so there’s a fairly large Hispanic, particularly Mexican, population there. There was a family that went to the same one room school house that were on the other side of the school a few miles away and they had a bunch of kids, and some of them were my age. We were allowed, as kids, their parents spoke no English, and I would, I remember going to stay with that family, I’d stay overnight with my friend there, they had chickens in their attic and so forth and culturally were very different from us. But my parents allowed us to do that. We didn’t think anything of it because I was pretty young. That was a really helpful early cultural experience and my parents had no qualms at all about going in to what was the Mexican community for restaurants and it wasn’t like I had a sense that some people stayed out of that Page 3 �community. I think those are just subtle ways, or I guess not so subtle ways that I didn’t understand at the time as a child, but that I took in. DW: Also, when you were growing up, was there anyone that you looked up to within the Civil Rights Movement, or going to college anyone along those same lines? DVD: Well, certainly as I got into later high school and college, certainly Dr. King because that was very vivid at that point, but also Malcom X. I think Malcom X is really underrated in relation to the whole Civil Rights Movement. I think his legacy, it wasn’t a challenge of Dr. King but is was expressing that that whole era of black power and so forth was a really important expression and Malcom X was really key. I still think his autobiography is very powerful and everybody ought to read it. It goes through his transformation and his early influences and Marcus Garvey, going back, certainly W. E. B. Dubois but also Howard Thurman. Howard Thurman is really kind of a mystic, very powerful figure who started the Church of All Nations in San Francisco. He did a number of writings and in fact he wrote Jesus and the Disinherited in 1947. It was really a precursor to the African American liberation theology, powerful, powerful stuff so he’s one that I very much admire. He doesn’t get any credit in terms of the whole justice struggle for African-Americans but he was really very key I think in that. DG: As your career moved on and as you moved into this area, how did your thinking about your identity change and grow? DVD: I guess it grew and solidified as an ally. That’s really because really early on, I was also involved with… even I was out of high school for a year after college, I was out a year before going to college and then that year I was involved with wider church things and got very involved in justice for gay and lesbian people. So I was a youth leader in our denomination state wide structure and so at that annual meeting I was really involved with that so I began to see the need for and the role of allies in a number of liberation studies. You know, that, that role and the identity, the need for that, but also the identity, clarity about the identity in terms of white privilege, because one can’t do this work without doing work on yourself, that’s where most of the work happens for dominant culture people so I think doing that work, understanding that work needed to be done and continues to need to be done is a big part of it. My identity as part of that white privilege class, that takes a lot of work. DW: I’m glad you brought up the concept of the ally, because one of the things I had planned on asking you, and this is one of the things I’m trying from Colette as well, is do you consider yourself to be an ally of the LGBT community? DVD: Oh definitely, definitely. That’s, for whatever reason, just early on it seemed to me that the way people are is the way people are and what threat is that to others. So being able to stand with LGBT people is really important. That’s certainly an area where the church that I pastor has been very strong in as well. We’ve influenced each other I think, and the church’s very, very early public stance of openness toward LGBT people. DW: And for you personally, has that always been a mantra that you’ve had, since a young age, or has that developed in time? Page 4 �DVD: Well it’s developed. You know, at a young age you don’t understand those kinds of things and I was at time when homophobia was rampant, especially amongst high school kids when you’re dealing with your own sexual identity and so forth. Then, even more than now still with many people misunderstanding what orientation is as opposed to same sex attraction from time to time, which everybody has along the way. All that confusion is rampant within adolescent kids; that was the case in the culture that I grew up in. But by late high school or certainly by early college in that year I was off, just came to understand and I guess got to know a few gay people, though I don’t think they were “out” gay at that point, but I just had a sense that that was the case. It was early 70’s, it was just beginning to be kind of an issue, at least amongst folks who were not gay or lesbian in that community, among straight folks, it was just beginning to be a justice issue. So from there on, it was important. In seminary, I went to a very progressive seminary with gay folks there, as well as people of color. It was really a heady mix. So, I think I just continued to grow, and as I grew in terms of my biblical understanding it also deepened, I think, that conviction for justice. DW: When you say that this is something you personally believe in, and that your church is behind this, how has that been received by your congregation? DVD: Well the congregation actually made it happen. In my church that I pastor and the denomination that I am in is pretty much structured from the bottom up, so there’s a great deal of local church autonomy so the church votes on everything. If it’s going to be a policy of the church, the congregation votes. So, really in the late 90s we had no openly out or gay people in the congregation at that point. We had parents and siblings and so forth of gay folks. We decided that this was an issue that we really needed to look at very carefully. So, we did a yearlong study on what we called then homosexuality in the church. Then, after that, we did another year of study on becoming an officially open and affirming congregation. Having done that, we went to the congregational meeting having a resolution to become open and affirming, and the congregation voted. There were two extensions of one “no” vote to become open and affirming, and that was in 1998. Part of that means that you are open , not just with LGBT people, but you’re clear with the community that that is your stance, the feeling being that, because the church has been and in many quarters is still a big part of the problem and the discrimination against gay-lesbian-transgender people, then it needs to be clear if it’s not. It needs to be open and affirming of them just as they are, just because we’re assumed to be against LGBT people if we don’t. So that was what happened and we continued to grow in that regard and with that understanding and even though, as I said, we started out without any “out” gay people in the congregation, 25-30% of our congregation now is LGBT. It’s become who we are; LGBT folks are part of the full life of the congregation, serve every place and there’s absolutely no discrimination about who serves where, including nursery and youth groups and all that kind of thing. DW: So now within the congregation itself and within the community, have you received any negative backlash because of it? DVD: Well, within the congregation when it happened a few people decided to leave, though actually more people decided to come, because that was what they hoped and expected out of a church. Yeah, we certainly, it’s amazing the kinds of negative stuff that comes from the community and people who claim to be , in this case, Christian, but just say all kinds of God-awful stuff in the tape machine and Page 5 �quote scripture to me like I’ve never read it. And, you know, a few threats, but it’s not a few threats toward everybody. I’ve had a few threats doing racial injustice work differently, that I have to work with LGBT issues, so yeah you get that and people who think you’re just crazy and can’t possibly be Christian, but truthfully, I’ve gotten much more support than negatives by folks, and they tend not to be church folks, some of them are, but a lot of them aren’t because they’ve given up on the church, but at least say “yeah, that’s what the church ought to be doing.” So, really probably overall more positive than negative. DW: Have you ever felt that your personal safety has been an issue with this at all? DVD: My general motto is, if people make the threat, they’re probably not going to follow through on it. Only one time with a threat and this is in terms of racial justice issues, I showed a copy of what I received to a fellow clergy, and made a copy of what I’d received just in case something happened. At that point I didn’t feel that it was appropriate to go to the police with it but I definitely wanted somebody else to know and I didn’t share it within the congregation because I didn’t figure that it was, you know, it gets everybody nuts and takes it off what the real issue is and that’s the justice part of it. If there would have been threats made against my family or anything like that, and we live a little ways away from the church in our own home, and it didn’t feel like I wanted to give it any more credence at all really. Fortunately, that turned out to be right. DG: Going with some of the past things you’ve said, what kinds of changes within the community have you seen throughout your involvement? DVD: Well in terms of racial justice issues, really early on part of some of the instances I was involved with were a school superintendent here who is African-American, and this was the early 80s, who is pushed out, and all those issues, there are a lot of issues going on in addition to perceptions caused by one’s race, but that highlighted some of the racism in the community. What I’ve seen is many, many people in the community becoming now really aware of what racism looks like, especially institutionalized racism, which is the definition of racism as far as I’m concerned, and doing a number of things to try and combat that. The business community really, Bob Woodrick was early on really involved with that. I chaired a committee, the Grand Rapids Urban League, which began to really look at racism in the community and out of that, David Bach was a part of that, and out of that came the Institute for Racial Justice, out of race the Grand Rapids Center for Humanism and they did a great deal of really, really fine work with the Racial Justice Institute. Bob Woodrick was working in terms of hiring and in terms of the number of businesses, and so now in the community there are a great number of businesses who are very involved in hiring in non-discriminative ways, putting their law firms, other kinds of firms, businesses of all kinds putting people through cultural sensitivity, all kinds of courses. So there’s a lot that has happened in that regard and I think many more people of color in leadership positions and in positions of more power, influence and responsibility in corporations within the community. Is it a thing in the past? Of course not. You look at economic issues-it’s alive and well .A lot of people’s perspectives, still the discrimination differences based on color is there, if you look at school system and the lack of support by the public school system of Grand Rapids by a number of people especially a number of folks with means. I think you still see lower expectations of people of color within the general public, which is still racist. Page 6 �DW: Going back for a sec, could you please give me the dates served with the Grand Rapids Urban League that you were a member of? DVD: Well, I probably began in the Urban League in about 1981. I’ve been on and off, more on that off most of the time since, including I’m on now. I chaired the Urban League two years, and that was probably…2003, 04 maybe, 2003-2005, somewhere around there. DW: Thank you. Let’s talk a little more about your church right now. Have there been things that you guys have done, to just, reduce discrimination within the surrounding area aside from just hunger drives or to fight social injustice as well? DVD: Well, we’re socially active in terms of mission, which we see in terms of helping individuals and social justice, which we see as trying to change systems. We have a just peace task force that continues to be very active, and the biggest thing that we’ve done, which was local in one way but was really opposing the involvement and the invasion of Iraq. We began with a whole wage peace initiative so we were very involved with that. Beginning with that and still we’ve been very involved with a number of groups and agencies that are involved with anti-discrimination and teaching peace. In addition we’ve used church property to build housing for people with chronic mental illness. Talk about a group discriminated against, in all kinds of ways, in terms of public perception, housing, just everything. So, (we’ve been) directly involved with that group in terms of finding housing and then advocacy on their behalf, or with them. I hate to talk about “on people’s behalf” because it makes them sound like they don’t have power. They do have power; it’s more a matter of standing with them. We also, it terms of more direct kinds of ways we’re also a host for Family Promise, which is a group that houses homeless families in churches on a rotating basis. That’s more of a direct service but it’s working directly with many people. Many people of color are caught up in the whole economic disparity that has been rampant, especially for people of color, for a long time. Other than that we try to be as a congregation very involved with local proposals, like when Grand Rapids included sexual orientation in terms of protected class, in terms of non-discrimination. When things come up in the community that are issues with racial injustice, we tend to be both as individuals in the congregation and as a community, we tend to be pretty involved with that. DW: Thank you. DVD: In terms of talking about the church, and this is an extension of the church, an extension of me, I was part of the group that organized Concerned Clergy, which organized in 1995, 96. There was a whole lot of discrimination at that point against gay folks, so a few of us got together and decided that as pastors, we really needed to take a stand and speak to our churches, to our church communities and to the community at large that LGBT people ought to be part of the full life and ministry of the churches and the community. Not as objects of mission, but as full particiapants. We began gathering clergy and had a sizeable group that did a letter to the community that was published on the front page of the Sunday issue in, it must have been spring of 96 or 97, and at that point, talk about shifts within community’s perception. Prior to our letter, which was signed by about 60 or 70 clergy in West Michigan, and people were amazed that there were that many clergy who were 1) supportive and 2) wanted to sign. Letters to the editor, prior to that, were very anti-gay and they acted like they were Page 7 �speaking on behalf of everybody, that their perspective was the community norm. People who were supportive of LGBT people were writing more defensively. After a year, after our letter to the community came out and we were doing much more support and a number of other things for people, letters to the editor written by people against LGBT people seemed to be defensive, they were no longer speaking on behalf of the whole community. If you weren’t looking for it maybe you didn’t see it, but it was a very clear shift in the community’s perspective, and right around that time is when I take that this community began to shift from just assuming that the Bible and everybody was against LGBT people to having to think about that differently and at least begin to question that that’s not the case. There are some times when you see community shifts and that one for me was pretty clear, that moment in time. DW: Have you ever taken, or thought about taken these beliefs that you’ve certainly infused within the community to sort of a national level? DVD: Well, we’ve been involved and I’ve been involved with, especially our denomination and other denominations in terms of our church’s experiences as well as being involved in advocacy levels on the national level both with our own denomination and with the welcoming movement. I’ve attended a couple times; it’s called Witness our Welcome which is a national gathering of welcoming individuals and welcoming churches. I’ve had a role of speaking there with strategizing and our experiences, so that’s an important thing to try to do this at whatever levels can be done. DW: Gotcha. Sort of just the fight against discrimination today is a lot different than the 1960s. Then it was more of a racial thing, today it’s more fighting for causes, more anti-war, as we’ve been talking a lot about the LGBT movement. Can you sort of compare the two at all or is it more of a different era. DVD: Well, it’s, discrimination and prejudice discrimination and how they’re institutionalized have many, many common threads. All of them at baseline are devaluing people, based on something that is a bias of the dominant culture and so in that they have a great deal in common. As a dominant culture person, I can say that they have a lot of things in common, but I can’t speak for, I can speak for differences I observe but I can’t speak authoritatively for the differences that people in those various groups that have been discriminated against can. A lot of folks sort of lively put the struggle for gay rights and the struggle for racial justice in the same place, and they are very different. There are allies in both of those communities. The dominant culture wants to either put them together as the same struggle or they want to pit them against each other, neither of which is appropriate. The bottom line is the dominant culture’s desire to keep things the way they are and it’s usually, or often an unexamined assumption on what’s most valuable, what’s most important, and then those have become institutionalized. Some of the best people and some of the most non-discriminative people I know are the heads of some of the most discriminative corporations I know, because that’s where racism is institutionalized. The call in all of these areas is to be anti-racist or anti-sexist or anti-orientation bias in that regard. Some of the people in cultures, some of the cultures that have been most discriminated against, like African-American cultures, say yeah, these issues of liberation and discrimination are much the same. There are also some big differences but we of all people ought to be sensitive to other people’s issues around those issues. For me, it’s an issue of justice overall and the step that’s further for me is well being for the whole community because the whole community, including the dominant community suffers when the gifts of various people and cultures are not included. So we need for the best of the whole culture overall, we Page 8 �need the gifts because hopefully there is a selfish part of it as well that really sees the value of those, from the gifts that people bring across the board. That’s what makes these issues and this movement partnerships rather than missions or “on behalf of”. Nobody wants to be, nor should they be, objects of missions. That’s a subtle but really powerful form of discrimination as well. It says, “We need to do this for you, or to you”, we need to do it for ourselves as well and we need to do it in partnerships so everybody gains. DG: So you feel like in the community as a whole you’ve seen a lot of progress? DVD: There has been, there has been a lot of progress. I don’t think can be denied. Certainly, overt racism is much less than it was. There’s still a lot of overt individual prejudice and prejudice that gets mouthed so that people of color certainly get called names or get turned against or turned away from, devalued in many settings, both institutionally and by individuals but not as much as has been the case in the past, so there’s progress being made but that’s not to say that it’s not happening. When it becomes ingrained economically as well, it’s really a component of economic issues and poverty but it’s hard to see where all those threads run and how exactly, clearly there’s that legacy of discrimination and its taken root in disparities, economically as well. In terms of the LGBT arena, certainly great progress made there as well. There are many, many people who are willing to stand up and say, “Discrimination against LGBT people is absolutely wrong”. There’s a lot more places where LGBT people can feel safe and welcome. A lot more church communities now. When we became open and affirming we were the only church outside of the gay-denomination church in town who was openly welcome to an affirming stance of the church. Now there are a number of them and there are more who are welcoming or at least gay friendly. So again, there’s a lot of change in that regard as well but you still get the backlash. Look at Holland. They weren’t willing to pass a, to include anti-gay in their protective class and state-wide, the referendum that made it clear that only between a man and a woman was an official marriage so there’s that backlash, there’s still a lot that still needs to be done. DW: This might be a difficult thing to answer but is it possible for you to measure success in terms of fighting against racial discrimination, social injustice and just the protests of anti-LGBT community? DVD: Well, it’s possible; it’s probably not advisable. It’s possible in the sense that yeah, you can look back and say, “Some things have changed, and some things have changed for the better.” There are times when unfortunately you look back and say, “Gee, things have not changed for the better,” but for me, and I suppose this comes out of my religious stance as well, you don’t do it because you’re certainly going to make a difference, you do it because it’s the right thing to do. There was a great interview, I think it was Daniel Berigen, who was very involved from early on pre-60s but 60s and 70s, all the way through with anti-war, justice of all types and as he was getting older, his years, and this was probably in the late 90s, he was asked, “So many other people who were involved with you early on have dropped out of the movement. They got discouraged. Why are you still involved?” And he said to them, “Well, it wasn’t because I thought I could make a difference, that was what I was called to do.” So for me, trying to work on behalf of, in my religious language, trying to work on behalf of the world you think God intends is what I was called to do. So it’s really nice if you can see progress because that keeps us going. Everybody wants to think they’re doing something worthwhile, but these are huge issues and there is urgency but they also can take a huge amount of time and so continuing that urgency that any more Page 9 �time of discrimination of victims is way too many-that was Dr. King’s point in The Grand Urgency of Now but one also has to realize that sometimes things change slowly. DG: Are there any works or any writing that you hold very highly and represent what you do very well? DVD: Oh boy, yeah but the titles always leave my head. For me, the liberation theologies are really important, the early African-American liberation theologies, the central-American ones, Gustavo Gutierrez, his writings. Women, minority women, This Bridge Called My Back I recall, that was in the early 80s was a really powerful book for me. Walking on Thorns by Ellen Busack was in the middle of the anti-apartheid movement. Further back, Paul Tillick’s Love, Power and Justice was really, really key for me. A number of more recent writings by gay and lesbian people, a number of them now that they’re particularly important. As I said, probably the first book that really began to shift perspective for me was, as I referenced before, Howard Thurman’s Jesus and The Disinherited and there’s a very early writing by Olive Schriener who was a white south-African woman, late 1800s early 1900s who did some writing on women and women at labor on African farms. They’re out of print now, but just amazing things, not as much by what they said, though that’s some of it, but also by who said it out of what era and so forth. Desmond Tutu’s book about hope, really another good one. I try to do a lot of reading in those areas and things that go together in relations between titles and authors, but yeah, there’s a lot of really powerful stuff out there. DW: Thank you. We have talked a lot about the progress that has been made both by you personally, by your church, by the community. Are there any areas that you feel are still lacking in progress or that the least progress has been made in terms of just fighting social injustice? DVD: Well, I think in schools. It’s an entrenched, devaluing of urban school and urban children and I just think that is an area, I think urban children are highly discriminated against. You don’t have to say that it’s intentional or that people are consciously against, but I think if you look at lack of support for, lack of valuation of urban school districts including Grand Rapids, that’s an area that you just can’t deny. Urban kids are devalued. That’s all one needs to know when you’re dealing with discrimination, that a certain group of folks is devalued. And so, that’s cause enough to try to deal with that devaluation, since there’s discrimination, prejudice there that is the root of that. So that’s an area that certainly needs to be. An area that’s beginning to get a little progress, but a huge amount more needs to be made in terms of understanding and non-discrimination is transgender people. There is a much, much larger transgender or what the dominant culture would call gender variant community out there than most folks, especially most straight folks, would understand. They’re in a particularly difficult place because they’re lumped by the dominant culture with gay and lesbian and bisexual folks, but that’s a very different reality. LGB folks aren’t transgender, don’t want to be identified as transgender, transgender folks have a whole different set of things so I think sophistication in that regard, both in understanding and non-discrimination for transgender folks really needs to be, more progress needs to be made. It’s just beginning to happen. DW: I guess to, how do you feel that society will in time, or do you feel that society in time will stop devaluing some of these groups of people? Page 10 �DVD: Well, in relation to LGBT folks, that’s moving very fast; that genie is out of the bottle. So, you see, one has to be careful historically, you see that cultures do go backwards sometimes and the backlash, you see how strong it is with groups like the American Family Association that focus on the family and so forth and even some well-moneyed people in West Michigan giving up a lot of money to those groups that want to turn the clock back on gay rights so you have to be careful and keep working and not assume that this is just going to go forward. But, that as I say, is not going back in the closet, so I think you can see how fast that is moving, surveys in relation to the people who are favor of legal marriage for LGBT people, those have moved up very fast. You see the places and states where that has happened. I think that your generation and people younger than you, so college kids, traditional aged college kids and younger are much, much more open to various people of color, culture, various cultural expressions, so I think that if we can keep the older generations from effecting them too much, and help both the older generation and that generation to see how this is perpetuated in systems that they need to combat, then we’ll continue to make progress on a racial justice scale as well. DW: Kind of the track a little bit, but have you seen the campaign video by Governor Rick Perry of Texas? DVD: I haven’t. DW: Basically, he has this, “Strong” is the title of the video I believe. It’s an advertisement where he goes off against the gay community, and it’s had a huge negative backlash for him personally, but what is your response when someone with political power like that, he’s running for President next year, what’s your response when there is still that sort of ignorance within society, at that kind of level? DVD: Well, it’s scary for one. It makes me angry for another. It’s used for political gain, it may well be his beliefs but it was clear when Bush won his second term that the issues that were put on the ballot had to do in many states, especially the states that were very important in his winning, were ones that dealt with homosexuality especially because they were trying to get out that right wing vote, and it worked. If you look at Ohio, Michigan I believe it was that year, but certainly it was Ohio and some of those key states, so it’s a political strategy as well. He probably believes that, but they’ve seen that they can get mileage out of it. It worries me about what do they perceive that they’re buying into or rather pulling out of the electorate and you know, they’re playing into those prejudices, those fear tactics that the US that we once had, which is probably a fantasy for most people, will come again if we just keep these bad people outside. It worries me on several levels that there are enough people to buy into it along with some other sort of ideological issues that can get somebody, hopefully not that extreme but still same kinds of people who would vote for him would vote for a person who is a little bit less extreme and have that power in the nation. I think you see that in the Michigan legislature. I think it is certainly not at all friendly to LGBT issues, so I find it scary. I would like to find it laughable but I think one needs to take it more seriously than that, but I hope it really does backfire on him. DW: It’s got several hundred thousand dislikes on YouTube now, I believe, compared to just hundreds of likes. DVD: Yeah, but who is sitting there who never gets on their computer who is going to vote for somebody who represents those kinds of views. But that just means that the people who aren’t, the Page 11 �people who think that that is just nonsense need to stand up, you can’t assume that others think that’s nonsense; you got to say that too. DW: Gotcha. That’s really all I’ve got. (To Dan) Is there anything else you’ve got? DG: Yeah, I think we’ve gone over pretty much everything? DW: Okay. (To Doug) Is there anything else personally you’d like to add for the project? DVD: Umm, no. I guess not. It’s been interesting to think of the sort of parallel tracks but not much intersection of the anti-discrimination issues in terms of civil rights for people of color and LGBT rights. I’ve been involved with both of those and people who know I’m involved with both of those, especially even in the black community, are supportive of me in that regard, but it would be, hopefully as we move along there will be less separateness to those two struggles than there is now, so that’s happening but the racial justice struggle really needs to continue, it can’t be overshadowed by anything else. It needs to continue with strong support and advocacy all the way through. It can’t be overshadowed but other ones need to be on parallel tracks so hopefully they will see themselves in concert with each other as well. DW: Gotcha. DVD: All right. DW: Thank you very much. DVD: Yeah, you’re very welcome. DW, DG: We really appreciate it. DVD: It was nice to meet you both. END OF INTERVIEW Page 12 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/12ec7e39525f1491b4913ec11a005e7a.mp3 54534662bdc4d92bc6821d60ca1717c5 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Van_Doren_Doug Title A name given to the resource Doug van Doren audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Doren, Doug van Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Johnson, Shae Gotshall, Daniel Wolff, Derek Description An account of the resource Doug van Doren is a pastor of Plymouth United Church of Christ and he is involved with the community in a number of areas. In this interview he describes experiences of discretionary practices and prejudice toward people of color in the West Michigan area. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Discrimination Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-12-13 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/01ac9c0e7a92668e0f4e76b481558bf0.mp4 9c51c3e59de12191d456fa41c468c670 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1f6db079dc1639d85535bcfcfbfbd3e0.pdf 6a8afc9a135201c9805eeb5273550a7b PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project Interview Mark Doren World War II Total Time: 1:42:15 Pre-War (0:00:05) • • • • • • • Born in 1919 in Kent City, Michigan. Attended a small rural school. Did not complete high school, and went to work for farmers in the area Was working for a mechanic when Pearl Harbor happened. In 1942, he started working for Sachler Products in Grand Rapids, Michigan. He was called by the draft board, and his Uncle was on this draft board. He was given a deferment the first time around, but not the second time. He was married and had three children when he was drafted into the Army. Training (0:09:26) • • • • • Boarded the train at Union Station in Grand Rapids and was sent to Florida for basic training. His drill sergeant was somewhat good and somewhat bad. On a typical day, they would have two minutes to wake up and get in formation. They would have some calisthenics and eat later in the morning. (0:14:28)Part of the reason why he was sent to Camp Blanding, Florida, for basic was that it was meant for soldiers destined to become mechanics and who would be receiving such training after basic. However, he didn’t receive the training because they changed up the camp to be infantry and heavy weapons training while he was there. After basic training, he was given a few weeks leave, and was then sent to Camp Myles Standish in Taunton, Massachusetts. Active Duty (0:19:00) • • • • During his time at Camp Myles Standish, they kept the normal army regimen while they waited for the boat to take them to Europe. (0:20:23) The ship they crossed on was the SS Washington, which was a converted luxury liner. He had never been on the ocean before this point. The ship sailed across the Atlantic alone. He landed in Liverpool, England and was sent to a camp where they slept in tents. With stone floors and a charcoal burner. They waited here for assignment as a replacement. (0:27:40) They crossed the English Channel in a small boat where they had to stay for a time. They finally crossed in late 1944 and landed in Le Havre, France. �• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • (0:30:58) Was then sent to Metz, France via train. It took them several days They rode in the box cars on the train. They were placed in horse stalls when they got to their destination, and they were given weapons there. He was given a .45 Automatic. (0:38:30) At this point, he was taken to the 6th Armored Division 86th Reconnaissance Battalion by a ride in the back of a truck. He arrived in a bombed out town [Bastogne?] on New Years Eve. He worked in the motor pool of the 6th Armored because of his background in mechanics. (0:44:40) They were moving through France and Germany, and they were often assigned to lines of tanks. His first experience of battle involved seeing a dead German with his hand sticking out of the snow, and it still bothers him. They were able to tell the difference between artillery and gunfire because of the noise and tracers. There were several occasions where he had close calls. On one occasion, he was ambushed and had a piece of shell land in the space between him and the man next to him. The wounded that they had were taken behind the lines for medical relief. (0:55:10) General Gerow had a meeting with his men at one point, which he attended, before they crossed the Rhine River. They had to take and hold a town on the other side of the river, which was difficult. (1:03:05) He was part of the battles for Bastogne. They had several difficult assignments with which he was involved. Remembers seeing columns and columns of prisoners that were not led by any American troops. He recalls the victory coming over the radio. After hostilities ceased, the 6th Armored was disbanded, but they stayed in one town until the Russians took it over. He did not have good impression of the Russians. (1:16:40) His group was part of the group that liberated Buchenwald Concentration Camp. There were still people occupying the site when he was there. Remembers the poor shape of the people in the camp, and looking like they were almost death. He did not know what the camp was when he initially came across it. Remembers hooks on the walls of one building where the guards would hang people. He saw furnaces still full of burned human remains. There were no Germans when they got there. He had some contact with civilians when he was in Germany. He even had some correspondence with some German civilians after the war. He was transferred away from the 6th Armored Division to the 3rd and then 12th Armored Divisions and was then allowed to come home in December 1945. (1:39:15) His brother died in Europe, in a crash in his B-17 Bomber. Post-Service (1:33:54) �• • Shipped out of France and got sick on the way home. It took them 12 days. Arrived in New York harbor. Was discharged at Camp Atterbury, Indiana, and returned to Grand Rapids to his family. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Doren, Mark (Interview outline and video), 2004 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Doren, Mark Description An account of the resource Mark Doren was born in 1919 in Kent City, Michigan and served into the Army in World War II. He was drafted into the Army and attended basic training in Florida and was then sent to Europe. He served in the 6th Armored in France and Germany as a mechanic, and was part of the group that liberated the Buchenwald Concentration Camp. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boring, Frank (Interviewer) Michigan Military Preservation Society (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings United States. Army World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2004-06-26 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DorenM1 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b1916580d512150f18b67869dbe5663a.m4v e5c3a3874d060d25029a5715b7e07401 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/56fc44b291540f424e5f64953a732235.pdf 232f369464d7712502ea42bf0593eba4 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veteran’s History Project World War II Mark Doren Length of Interview (01:02:22) Introduction Is very happy to do the interview, glad that someone will get to hear what he has to say and understand what really happened Part of the Battle of the Bulge, one of the most well known campaigns If the invasion of Normandy had not been successful, Doren isn’t sure where we would be today (00:01:48)  Germans had been heading to England, who had nearly given up, the French had already capitulated; Germany had gotten far  Eisenhower had already planned the invasion o Loss was unbelievable but inevitable; Eisenhower knew it would be dangerous and costly; already prepared a script for the press if the invasion failed o “If this invasion fails, our men have fought valiantly. They’ve done everything they could; and if there is any blame to be laid, it’s on my planning.”---General Eisenhower (00:03:55) o Doren thought that was quite a statement, especially in later years after the War  Joined the units later that went through France, Belgium, Luxembourg; all heading to Berlin (00:04:40) Part of the Battle of the Bulge, one of the most noted campaigns (00:05:05)  Happened during Germany’s worst blizzard in recorded history  Couldn’t see fences in the field because the snow covered them; bitterly cold  Part of the 86th Reconnaissance Battalion o Main job to run reconnaissance for the company and its attachments  When getting close to Belgium, the Bastogne area, Germans made a big breakthrough; our forces suffered great losses (00:06:00) �  101st Airborne dropped [drove] into Bastogne, Doren’s unit [4thArmored Division] went in to relieve them Hundreds and thousands [not all that many killed out of the 101st] of Paratroopers slaughtered there o Saw the remains of what was left (helmets) o Bitterly cold  Made two attempts to get into Bastogne  Was hard to get into because German artillery were zeroed in there  Would have to back off and then attempt again  Bastogne was one the last places that Hitler pushed for in order to stop the Americans; Doren was part of the unit that overtook the Germans Drafted (00:09:00) Didn’t have many ambitions to be in the Army, was married and had three children Received a letter saying he was chosen to be in the Army; “Congratulations you’ve been selected to a part of the Army.” Had gotten a 6 month deferment the first time because of his job, but eventually went Was 26 years old at the time Didn’t have a problem with basic training, wished he could have gone home at the end of each day During training, always wound up in a group acquainted with mechanics  Did a lot of mechanic work for Chevrolet in Grand Rapids Constantly interviewed and put into a different position; put with men who had all done mechanic work Was supposed to be sent to a Specialist School in Florida; dealt with electronics, engineering, radio, and mechanics (00:12:15) The night before getting out of basic training, the found out they wouldn’t continue with Specialist School, sent to another camp  All mechanic training thrown out the window, but Doren saw it as a blessing in disguise � Difficult to operate as a mechanic in the Army 86th Reconnaissance Battalion Assigned to the 86th Reconnaissance Battalion, assigned to the Motor Pool (00:13:03)  Approached by the Captain who knew he had done mechanic work, this worried Doren because something obviously happened to the man who previously filled the spot he was being assigned  Introduced to the Motor Pool’s Sergeant  Didn’t understand how to check vehicles the “Army Way”  After being spoken to several times on the matter, the Sergeant eventually pulled Doren aside and told him as long as he kept the motors running, he was fine it o Army did their mechanics by the number, very confusing because he was never taught this o The Sergeant was previously a Ford mechanic, so he didn’t like the system either  Doren then describes what the Motor Pool is… (00:15:24) o Had 100 vehicles in his unit, alone o Some ran for 24 hours a day o Unit started down in France after the Invasion of Normandy  Battle of the Bulge occurred in Germany, never got to Berlin When travelling, tried to make as far as they could, constant travel (00:17:15)  Whenever walking through villages, they passed right through as long as they didn’t run into any resistance  Some villages hung white sheets out their windows to show they had surrendered  Rode in a truck with 50 caliber machine gun on top, back end with a 30 caliber; pull in a trailer behind it with spare parts o His unit reminded him of the “Beverly Hillbillies’” trucks  Would take trucks along the way or strip abandoned trucks of their wheels � A lot of the time was where the action was because they were called to the front to fix machinery  Didn’t know where they were going, knew they had a destination Did a lot of reconnaissance work at night and on foot (00:21:05) Weimar, Germany (00:21:38) Was just a normal morning when they were ordered to a destination that was being surrounded by other American troops  They were moving in on a concentration camp  Just outside of Weimar, Germany  Nobody knew what it was, saw a large towering smokestack; thought it was a factory  Went over a hill and saw a large concentration camp; high barbed fences  No opposition because the Germans had already escaped  Opened the gates and people came flooding out o It was hard to believe that human beings were treating other human beings like animals o The camp was like a boxed-in pen o They had been worked until they couldn’t work anymore o Germans had started burying many of those who died in mass graves  When the troops moved in, the furnaces still contained ashes o Doren took some pictures of it  Couple of days later, had the German citizens walk through there; may not have know what was going on there; most said they were unaware o Doren found that hard to believe  Eisenhower had sent a man over to get reports (00:26:28) o Had the troops take the citizens through the camp to make them aware of it �Doren had taken some pictures, and when he went back to America, he’d shown the pictures and people didn’t believe it happened (00:27:25)  It bothered him a lot that people didn’t believe it, it still does Good Soldier’s Medal (00:29:20) Once rescued someone from a burning plane; was something that happened, had little to do with the camps Standing in the “Chow Line,” after combat; a pilot was giving rides in a little German biplane Saw the plane coming over the trees, and it stalled then took a nose-dive Crashed in front of the place and Doren’s friend and he ran to the plane Cut a couple cables on the plane and hauled the burning man out The plane exploded when they got him out; didn’t realize there was another person in there, a girl who used to hand out coffee and donuts to the men Was in the War for about 18 months (00:33:20) Had recruited him because most of the younger men had already been drafted Battle of the Bulge was where the heaviest of losses occurred  This was why they stopped putting people through Specialist School; most went into infantry and heavy weapons  Men didn’t want to go into reconnaissance due to the danger it posed; “Sticking your neck out”  Main thing that needed to be done was to be assigned to a unit or company, otherwise you’d be herded around like cattle  Would never recommend this to any men, need a place where you belong Was never sure whether or not the mail would arrive or would be received (00:35:20)  Mail Call  His wife didn’t receive letters often, a lot of things were censored � Thought that it was a fortunate delay because rumors, contrary to now-a-days, traveled much slower and caused much less panic for the families at home o Rumors were often spread that the 86th Reconnaissance Battalion had been annihilated o Would use it as a tactical advantage to move from place to place, would white wash the cars to belie their identity (00:37:33) o Usually travelled in the black of night to surprise the enemy Remembers Gen. George Patton, made a very big impression on Doren (00:39:25)  Had two 45 Revolvers with pearl handles, his trademark  Always had his aides around him and a beautiful blonde “fräulein” at his side  Many people didn’t have many good things to say about him After reading many things on the War through the years; Doren realized why so many big speakers had gathered at one place for a rally in a combat area (00:40:30)  The spring before the Battle at Rhine River, in 1945  Had aircraft circling the area for protection  Thousands of troops there  One of the statements made (by Patton), “If you get across the Rhine River, g as far as you can as fast as you can because somebody is going to be behind you.” Started moving the next day, got across the Rhine River, pontoon bridge (00:41:53)  The bridge would dip when a truck drove on it, men had to pretty much run uphill  Under a smokescreen, Germans tried to bomb the bridge  Got on the other side and started moving; half-track runs about 50-60 mph  The man driving their truck was from Kentucky, a “hillbilly,” he only could see out of a slot about one foot in width o Made a couple remarks about getting out of there �o The kid at the top, with the machine gun, agreed with him; “Turn this thing around!”  Made a u-turn down into a field; as this happened, Doren was faced with foxholes filled with German soldiers  Fortunately, they made it back onto the road and into one of the little towns nearby for protection  That night, fixed so many tires, that he lost count; many were flattened by shrapnel  Germans were using flares to find the bridge; Doren and his crew fixed tires from the light of these flares o Very efficient at fixing tires after that; used a lot of tubing and hot patch Stayed in the town a couple days, then the aircraft came in to take care of the artillery (00:45:33)  Usually tried to find a building for protection; used a tarp as a lean-to against the halftrack when this wasn’t possible  Most of the time, they slept outside in the snow o Bastogne- there for two weeks, slept in a “shell hole” One of his most memorable memories (00:47:19)  On the way to France, crossed the English Channel  40 and 8 (“Can pack 40 men or 8 horses), packed into these box cars  3 days and 3 nights across France, on Christmas Eve.  Very narrow cars; same cars that the Germans used to carry prisoners in  Promised a Christmas Dinner in Neufchâteau, France, but Christmas had already passed  Given a barn with fresh straw, instead; thought that they had it made o Got used to thinking these as small luxuries  Most of the cooking was the same; get rations, very hard for the cooks to catch up to feeding the men o Would often cook for themselves and catch wild game; rabbits, chickens �o Had pots and pans hanging from their trucks; also had burners o The Mess Sergeant would often stay with the Maintenance Crew even though they would often be in the front lines and even beyond it Was in a little farm town (00:52:00)  Had outposts along the river, volunteered to take provision and supplies to these men  Weasel- a track vehicle, usually carried personnel  A tank column came through as they were going over  One of the tanks ran over the hogs; one of the men on Doren’s truck said, “Pick me up when you come back!” then he jumped over the side  Went to each post; along with giving supplies, they had to inform the men what the password for the day was o Had a new password everyday  On the way back, Doren saw his buddy carrying a hunk of ham; fresh meat for the day o It was an everyday thing, had to make things funny in order to keep their sanity (00:54:30)  Eventually got in trouble with taking all the chickens o They were caught once, but they were never reprimanded o Also caught rabbits, the town raised rabbits  The driver, the “hillbilly boy,” liked to cook; so he would often cook  Describes a technique on how to make coffee (00:56:35) Wouldn’t take million for the experience he had, but wouldn’t do it again for two million (00:57:23) Everybody hooted and yelled when the War was over (00:58:39)  Was in a small town, “enclosure,” when they heard the Germans had capitulated � A day after the announcement, the German civilians were going to church; the kids were all crisply dressed with a white shirts and collars with leather pants and suspenders, the little girls dressed in clean white dresses o This always impressed Doren; in spite of all that they went through, they could still continue some kind of normalcy with their lives o They were very kind people, they were just doing what they were told  Would often swap ration smokes for candy; always filled his gas flask with candy and give what he could to the children  Often used the German civilians’ homes for quarter, would try to get along with them as well as they could  Was very good with children � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Doren, Mark (Interview outline and video) Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Doren, Mark Description An account of the resource Mark Doren was born in 1919 in Kent City, Michigan and served into the Army in World War II. He was drafted into the Army and attended basic training in Florida and was then sent to Europe. He served in the 6th Armored in France and Germany as a mechanic, and was part of the group that liberated the Buchenwald Concentration Camp. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Steffen, Carrie (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DorenM2 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/55325d8f52a38f74976fd5c19ac20317.m4v c2dfa2a026b6c408b1b4af6b08069484 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/0b2b7f87fbb7335e1477f5191027ef18.pdf 0afa59ad2bb456e00de1c4258c3ab054 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veteran’s History Project World War II Joseph Dorgan Length of Interview (00:16:58) Introduction (00:00:00) Born November 10, 1925 Served in World War II in the Navy Highest Rank was Postman’s Mate 2nd Class Birthplace: Washington, D.C. 1925 Enlisted in the Navy when he was 17, still had been in high school Found the Navy to be the most interesting of the three services Wasn’t difficult to adapt to military life Service (00:01:35) Training was only three weeks, took that long due to vaccinations  Learned very little, learned about the Navy and what it meant to be there, peacetime  Would have been 3-6 months of training, but they needed the people  Dec., 7 1941 was the start of the War, Dorgan had to wait another year to get in Served most of his time on Naval Armed Guard, naval gun crews on merchant ships (00:02:28)  U.S. Naval Armed Guard  Brooklyn, NY was the home base for Atlantic crossings; transferred to the West Coast to San Diego  Made a trip as far as the Philippines Stationed on merchant ships that carried military goods, convoys as big as 100 ships (00:03:40)  Sometimes destroyers escorted the ships Saw very little action, just went back and forth across the N. Atlantic (00:04:16) Had seen some ships get hit by torpedoes (00:05:10) �When off duty, would go to the nearest bar (00:05:30)  Some men would be on board long lengths of time, 2 to 3 years, so the first thing they’d do is get a drink 20-25 men per merchant ship, all seamen and a couple bosun's mates (00:06:05)  Had four hour watches which changed by rotation, quite boring  Nowhere near the action in the Pacific End of Service (00:07:30) Not sure where he was when the War ended, probably out at sea  Down near San Diego, processed there  Dorgan still had a year to serve because he signed up for 4 years  Was transferred to Washington, D.C., where his home was One Marine and one sailor would act as police, this is what Dorgan’s duty was onshore (00:08:50)  Shore Patrol Wasn’t difficult to readjust to civilian life, quite young when he had joined Didn’t stay in contact with fellow veterans His time in the Navy helped him grow up, even though it wasn’t interesting (00:10:10)  When aboard ship, would go weeks or days without seeing anything  Played a lot of cards The ship weighed 10,000 tons (00:12:05)  Sometimes carried ammunitions or bombs Dorgan feels he was blessed because some of the other men on the ship had been a part of ships that had been attacked by enemy submarines �Matured in the Navy, learned discipline (00:13:35) Returned home by taking a train to New York to Washington, D.C. (00:14:15)  Had a two older brothers in the war, Air Force and Navy  One was a gunner in the Air Force and the other served on submarines and merchant ships  On Dorgan’s ship, would either fire a 3in. 0.50mm at the bow of the ship; 4 in.0.50 or 5in. 0.38 in the stern; or a 0.20mm machine gun, ships had four on starboard and four on portside  Ships had tight living spaces because it included the merchant ship’s crew � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Dorgan, Joseph (Interview outline and video), 2009 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dorgan, Joseph Description An account of the resource Joseph Dorgan enlisted into the Navy in 1942 at the age of 17 during the Second World War. He served a majority of his time in the Armed Naval Guard. on merchant ships in convoys in the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Pitsch, Eric (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American United States. Navy Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2009-05-30 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DorganJ Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/31d4b3b24efbde84aa99498d5ed8025e.mp4 c7f1fde5758c8855e9ea0f185d9dc15c https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e8d05c40823a7f803de07793aec11404.pdf 3adf32d8d6c49a95794e8487707242a5 PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Veterans’ History Project George Dorman Cold War/Vietnam War 36 minutes 36 seconds (00:00:12) Early Life and Enlisting in the Air Force -Born on May 25, 1930 in Manistique, Michigan (Upper Peninsula) -He quit high school at the age of seventeen, so that he could join the military -Growing up during WWII made him want to serve -Cousins had been killed in action during WWII -Parents wouldn’t allow him to join the military early -Joined the Air Force on June 16, 1948 after he turned eighteen -Joined when the Army Air Corps became the Air Force (00:01:44) Training and Deployment to Guam -Sent to Lackland Air Force Base, San Antonio, Texas for basic training -Basic training lasted thirteen weeks -Given thirty days of leave after he completed basic training -Got deployed to Guam -Originally supposed to go to Clark Field in the Philippines -He was stationed at Northwest Field -They had three squadrons of P-47 fighters from WWII -One squadron was the former Flying Tigers -Supposed to give the P-47s to the Filipino Air Force -Planes were unfit for flying -Seventy five planes wound up getting scrapped and buried on the island (00:04:05) National and International Deployments -After Guam he was sent to Howard Air Force Base in the Panama Canal Zone -Stationed with the 23rd Fighter Wing -Got moved from Howard AFB to Albrook Air Force Base closer to the Panama Canal -Spent a total of thirty months in Panama -After Panama he was sent to Kelly Air Force Base, San Antonio, Texas -Served there for a year -Received orders to be transferred to French Morocco -Part of Army Airways Communications System (AACS) unit -Stationed at Nouasseur Air Force Base outside of Casablanca -Served thirty months in French Morocco -After Morocco he was shipped to Kinross Air Force Base, Sault Ste. Marie, Michigan -Served two years there -Transferred to Stewart Air Force Base in New York -Part of the support air craft unit for West Point -Served two years there -After Stewart Air Force Base he was sent to Thule Air Force Base in Greenland -He believed that growing up in Upper Peninsula, Michigan would prepare him -20mph winds and -40oF temperature was a shock to him �-Served a year in Greenland -Sent to Montana to work with the Air Force nuclear missile operations -Insured that if silos and missile facilities needed service they received it -Served a year in Montana -Got sent to Torrejon Air Force Base, Madrid, Spain -U.S. Air Force was supporting the Spanish Air Force -U.S. gave Spain aircraft -In return the U.S. was allowed to use Spanish airbases -Served three years in Spain -After Spain he was sent to Fairchild Air Force Base, Spokane, Washington -Served two years there -By now he had already served twenty years in the Air Force (00:09:59) Deployment to Vietnam -Voluntarily went to Vietnam -Wanted to be a part of the war and fight alongside his friends -He was deployed to the 7th Air Force Headquarters at Tan Son Nhut -His job was to help turn American airbases over to the South Vietnamese Air Force -Helped establish schools at Binh Thuy, Da Nang, and Saigon -Taught South Vietnamese pilots how to operate American equipment -Got to know a large amount of South Vietnamese pilots in the process -Travelled extensively around Vietnam as part of his duty -Was able to see Pleiku and Bien Hoa areas as well -There was a definite cultural divide between the Americans and the Vietnamese -Had a good relationship with them nonetheless -Served a year in Vietnam (00:12:30) Coming Home & Leaving the Air Force -Returned home and was stationed at K.I. Sawyer Air Force Base, Marquette, Michigan -By this time had enough service time to retire -Stationed only ninety miles from his hometown -Hated being stationed at K.I. Sawyer Air Force Base -Did not enjoy working with bomber crews -More involved work than with fighter pilots -Completely different attitude -Discharged out of K.I. Sawyer Air Force Base -Left active duty Air Force after twenty three years of service -Stayed in the Air Force Reserves for seven years -Had a total of thirty years of service (00:14:20) Life after the Air Force -Went to Muskegon, Michigan -Got a job as a union representative for Service Employees International -Was able to get the job because a close friend was a union official -Helped organize school, city, and other public employees -Worked for them for three years -Went back to school at Muskegon Community College -Graduated with honors -Became the head of television programming at the school �-Joined a material handling company in Grand Rapids, Michigan -Ultimately retired from that (00:16:54) Reflections on Service -Learned a lot (academically speaking) from serving in the Air Force -Did not graduate from high school before joining, so training was a learning experience -Found being in a supply squadron to be an interesting duty -Learned to get along with people from a variety of different regional and ethnic backgrounds -Proud to have been in the Air Force when it became its own branch of the Armed Forces -Remembers a major change being their uniforms being changed from green to blue -Learned to obey orders -Thankful that he joined the Air Force instead of the Army (00:22:22) Memorable Details about Deployment to Guam -Remembers the KP (kitchen patrol) squadron going on strike -They were thrown in jail by the Air Force police -He and his squadron became the replacement squadron for KP -Found that the food was infested with bugs -Had to walk across the base just to take a shower -Water was cold -Entire base was outdated and had been originally built during WWII -Enjoyed the temperature at Guam -Always looked forward to drinking Coca Cola on break -Deployment to Guam was an interesting experience for an eighteen year old -Especially being able to see the famed P-47 Flying Tigers (00:26:27) Memorable Details about Deployment to French Morocco -Worked at Nouasseur Air Base depot outside of Casablanca -Lived in the city of Casablanca -Had to deal with roadblocks and French military checkpoints -French and the Arabs were at war with each other -Always had to immediately identify oneself as an American -On his way to taking his wife to the base to give birth to their child got stopped at a checkpoint -Had a French soldier put a machine gun to his head -Allowed to go through after a French officer realized he was an American -Wife was able to give birth to their son at the base hospital (00:28:51) Further Reflections -Wished that he had stayed in, and graduated from, high school prior to enlisting -Mathematics courses in the Air Force were a shock to him -Air Force tutor helped him pass the classes though (00:30:10) Further Early History -He could have had a job if he had stayed in Manistique and graduated high school -Did not want to stay in Manistique -Would have worked for his father’s cement contractor business (00:30:43) Supply Squadron Stories -Worked with the F-102 fighter jets -Had a request for a F-102 jet engine in the middle of the night -Had it delivered to the engine shop -Turns out that an F-102 was leaking jet fuel out of the engine �-Engine manufacturer representative and shop officer modified the jet engine -Not allowed without government approval -Had their unit’s test pilot fly it to check it for safety -Had to help a young pilot who ran his jet into a hangar door -Ripped off the left wing tip -Helped get the wing repaired -Same test pilot from the engine story checked the safety of the repaired wing -Modification on the jet engine worked extremely well -Representative and shop officer were rewarded for their ingenuity -Air Force worked with Howard Hughes’ company -He had perks from having connections with the Howard Hughes representative -Worked with an aircraft called the Scorpion -Prone to crashing -Friend refused to fly it after crashing in it -As a result got kicked out of the Air Force � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Dorman, George (Interview outline and video), 2013 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dorman, George Description An account of the resource George Dorman was born in Manistique, Michigan, in 1930. He grew up in Manistique and enlisted in the Air Force in 1948. Over the course of twenty years he was deployed to Guam, the Panama Canal Zone, Texas, French Morocco, Michigan, New York, Greenland, Montana, Spain, and Washington, and then volunteered for Vietnam. He was attached to the 7th Air Force Headquarters in Tan Son Nhut and was a part of an operation that was helping to turn American airbases in Vietnam into South Vietnamese airbases. He served a year in Vietnam and returned to Michigan for his final deployment to K.I. Sawyer Air Force Base in Marquette, Michigan. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Coccia, Kayleigh (Interviewer) Caledonia High School (Caledonia, Mich.) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American United States. Air Force Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2013-03-23 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DormanG1501V Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e4e37f9c6e43b8b42edea8e2afa1a9ac.pdf 420514b54784cd2fd315f9ba28ca42c7 PDF Text Text • J' • .,. '• ~ 4• I J.°,\ iL .. ~ ' '.) ; ' t -~ . '. ►.- ' ~ ., ' ,. { ' ' ·,· Dorr Towns.h ip I' l· .. L Allegan County, Michigan . ' L•' .. •' ! ' . 't r T •• • . ' ·, L· .•, L,, L: •• •• L< Ll ·Master Plan j : ,· :J , ' ' I . ' 1991 ' ' , ,. •'• I L. L L L .. , } �DORR TOWNSHIP TOWNSHIP BOARD Donald Kaczanowski, Supervisor Dick Dutkiewicz, Clerk Paul Burmania, Trustee Joe Graczyk, Treasurer Norman Fifelski, Trustee PLANNING COMMISSION Robert Wagner, Chairperson Norma Schaendorf, Secretary Steve Spykman Louis Hamish Darwin Duff Mike Kelly Paul Burmania Adopted: May 21, 1991 PREPARED WITH THE ASSISTANCE OF: WW Engineering & Science, Inc. Governmental Services Division SSSS Glenwood Hills Prkwy, S.E. P.O. Box 874 Grand Rapids, Michigan 49588-0874 (616) 942 - 9600 �RESOLUTION TO ADOPT r I a REVISED MASTER PLAN ror DORR TOWNSHIP WHEREAS. the 1974 Dorr Township Master Plan is over 15 years old and significant changes have taken place in the Township since that time, AND WHEREAS, the citizens of Dorr Township have expressed a strong desire to prcsCIVc agricultural land which is a significant natural and economic resource of the Township.AND WHEREAS, there is also a need to provide for residential development which will offer a _rural life style while protecting prime agricultural land. AND WHEREAS, there is also a need to provide for orderly growth in a manner consistent with the goals and policies of Dorr Township. AND WHEREAS, a revised Master Plan will sCIVe as a guide for the future orderly development of Dorr Township, preserve prime agricultural land and maintain the rural character of Dorr Township, AND L- WHEREAS, Michigan Public Act 168 of 1959, as amended, authorizes the adoption of a Township Master Plan by the Planning Commission NOW, THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED that the Dorr Township Planning Commission does hereby adopt the revised Master Plan for Dorr Township, ,- �BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that copies of the adopted Plan be forwarded to members of the Dorr Township Board VOTE i . Motion by: Seconded by: YEAS: ,E O v .(( - 4- - NAYS: IV v r-'lf - ABSENT: -r - d- • &.) u 0 ·~I(::/1 , i ~A'\..J,~-,,.-. ,, .~-,.._ I Robett Wagner V Chairperson, Planning Commission I, Dick Dutkiewicz. Oerk of Dorr Township, do hereby cenify that was adopted by the Dorr Township Pla.'lning Commission on ...-:I (7,n the a1if resolution I.;;; I , ' ,., " ,~c..-v I L l . r1.c ~>~ Dick Dutkiewicz Oerk Dorr Township ~u~ �! Table of Contents .~ fJlu. Chapter I - 1 Introduction 1. ,. I Agriculture Residential Land Use Commercial Land Use Industrial Land Use Roads, Sewer, and Water Public Services Parks and Recreation Natural Features 2. 3 Goals and Policies 3 4 4 - 5 5 6 6 7 Physical Description 8 Regional Setting Natural Features 8 8 l~ I 3. Communi!Y Faciliti.es Township Offices Fire Services Public Safety Libraries Cemetarics Educational Facilities Parks and Recreation Historical Sites Utilities Solid Waste Disposal Roads and Transponation ( !_ 14 14 14 14 14 14 14 15 15 16 16 16 I 1. '. j: 4. Social and Economic Characteristics Population Households Economic Characteristics I \... I""', 1 L r- 21 21 26 26 �Table of Conte~ (continued) &la. Chaptu 5. Existing Land Use and Analysis Agriculture Residential Commercial/Office Industrial Public/Semi-Public Schools Recreation l. 6. . Planning Analysis Population Projections Residential Land Use Needs Other Land Use Needs Total Future Land Use Needs Roads and Streets 7. Future Land Use Plan The Relationship of Planning and Zoning Plan Concepts Agriculture Rural Estate Low Density Residential Medium Density Residential Commercial/Office Industrial Public/Semi-Public Streets '- 8. Implementation 27 27 29 31 32 32 33 35 35 35 35 37 41 43 46 46 47 48 49 . 49 50 51 53 53 54 ss �.. I List of Ta/Ms l_ 1. 24-Hour Traffic Counts and Capacity 2 . . Historical Population Changtl, 1960- 1990 3. Rectlnt Devdopment Activity - BMilding PD'lllits lsslWl 1985 - 1990 (April) 4. Agtl ofResidents 5. Pu Capita Income 6. 7. 8. 9. Existing Land Use: Changu Sinctl 1978 I 0. 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7. 8. • Population ProjtlCdon., 2010 Land Use Nt!tltb Rt!creadon Land Standards and Nt!tltb Traffic Vallone Proj«tions FormalCountyDrauu SMitabltl Soils for Development Prime and Unique Farmland Soib Existing Strat Classi/icatJon LotSplits 1980-1990Bys«tion Existing Landu. P.A.1161.antb F11111re Lfllld Use Map 19 23 24 - 25 25 34 37 41 42 44 JO 11 12 2fJ ,,.,,.21 22 �.. DORR TOWNSHIP MASTER PLAN INTRODUCTION The fundamental purpose of the Master Plan is to allow Dorr Township to set fonh in a comprehensive manner the goals and objectives for its physical development. The Township Planning Act. Public Act 168 of 1959, as amended, specifically gives Township Planning Commissions the authority to prepare and officially adopt a Master Plan. This Plan will serve as an advisory guide for the physical conservation of certain areas and for the development of other areas into a desirable living environment for present and future township residents. Planning, in simple terms, is a goal-oriented and continuous process which seeks to improve a community and create a better environment. As such, a Master Plan is a "tool" by which this goal can be reached. It is used by both individuals and public officials to make decisions concerning the long-range future of a community. In 1974, the Allegan County Planning Commission prepared a General Development Plan for each township in Allegan County. ~ anticipation of future growth, a Plan update was undertaken by Dorr Township in April of 1990. This Plan includes demographic information, a. natural resources inventory, population projections, future land use needs, a future land use map, and methods to implement the Plan. I I. The Master Land Use Plan provides: 1. A comprehensive means of integrating proposals that look 20 years ahead to meet future needs regarding general and major aspects of physical conservation and development throughout the Township; 2. An officiaL advisory policy statement for encouraging orderly and efficient use of the land for residences, businesses, industry. parks and recreation areas, and agriculture, and for coordinating these uses of land with each other, with streets and highways, and with other necessary public facilities and services; 3. A logical basis for zoning, subdivision design, public improvement plans, and for facilitating and guiding the work for the Township Planning Commission and the Township Board as well as other public and private endeavors dealing with the physical conservation and development of the Township; ,-• \ 1.· i I I r. r L JNJ\DorrTpMPl.a\89443 1 �r. I '- 4. A means for private organizations and individuals to determine how they may relate their building and development projects and policies to official township planning policies; and s. A means of relating the plans of Dorr Township to the plans of adjacent townships and cities and to development of the region as a whole. The final clement of the plan will synthesize the recommended goals and needs of the Township with the analysis of existing conditions and trends. The plan will conclude with an implementation program that will define strategies and will address specific tools for implementation such as the,.zoning ordinance, subdivision regulations, and a capital improvements program. The Dorr Township Plan is intended to be long-range and dynamic, based on the longterm goals and objectives looking 20 years forward. With that in mind, there is an important caveat to this planning process: the Master Plan is general in scope. It is not necessarily intended to establish the ·precise boundaries of land use areas or the exact locations of individual future land uses. Its greater function is to serve as a decision making frame-work. The Master Plan insures that more detailed future decisions can be related to the broader community-wide perspective provided in the plan, and that decision makers will have confidence that their decisions have a clear and rational basis. ( I_ f l ( l_ JNJ\DonTpMP'>,aea\89443 2 �'l - CHAPTER 1 GOALS AND POLICIES \ l ,' - t l Planning goals are statements that express the community's long-range desires and serve to provide direction for related planning activities. Each goal has accompanying policies which reflect the general strategy that the community will pursue to attain its goals. Following are goals and policy statements that have been developed for shaping the Dorr Township Master Plan, based upon citizen input and technical analysis of the data. At a meeting held on December 12, 1990, members of the Dorr Township Board of Trustees and the Planning Commisssion met and concurtt.d on these goals and policies. These goals and policies were developed from a public workshop held on September 18, 1990 which was attended by about 40 Township residents. GOAL #1: Agriculture Preserve lands suitable for agricultural uses in the Township, and manage growth to minimize the encroachment of residential, commercial, and industrial uses into areas valued for agricultural pmposes. Policies: • Suppon the Farmland and Open Space Preservation Act, P.A. 116 of 1974, by encouraging use of preservation agreements by area farmers and approving such agreements that are consistent with the land use . plan. • Develop zoning regulations which restrict non-farm development in a:rcas consisting primarily of prime farmland. • Develop zoning regulations and utility extensions policies which make lands which are less suitable for agriculture use more attractive to develop than prime agricultural .land. • Encourage propcny tax poli?CS that assess farmland for its present use rather than its potential use. • Develop zoning regulations which discourage the formation of flaglots or irregularly-shaped land divisions which result in large numbers of acres that are not buildable, not easily serviced by public utilities, and are in some cases removed unnecessarily from agricultural production. (. r I t .JNJ\DorrTpMP..'89443 3 �GOAL #2: ( Residential Land U• Centralize residential land uses in the Township using the intersection of 142nd Avenue and 18th Street as well as·the settlement of Moline as points around which residential development will be focused. · I:..: Policies: • Encourage the highest concentrations of residential development to occur in locations where there are existing public utilities and where future public utilities and services can be most economically and efficiently provided when they are needed. • · Establish density standanis that are consistent with the natural capacity of soils to handle on-site septic systems and w~ch promote the preservation of the Township's rural and agrarian qualities. GOAL#3: r I • Provide for a variety of housing types in appropriate locations and at acceptable densities. Special attention should be given to the needs of senior citizens, young couples, and low/moderate income households. • Encourage creative design of neighborhoods to enhance desirability including amenities such as sidewalks, bike paths, pedestrian paths, open space, and pedestrian linkage to commercial centers. Commercial Land Us~ Plan for and encourage expansion of the retail and service businesses in the central area of the Township (downtown Dmr), and in Moline. I Policies: • Identify and provide for the basic service and shopping needs of the Township's residents. • Expand public utilities and services in those areas identified as desirable for commercial retention and expansion. • • Discourage, through zoning controls, commercial development in areas that would lead to the need for public utilities and services that cannot be economically and efficiently provided in the foreseeable future. • Discourage, through zoning, the development of wide-spread strip development along 142nd Avenue. I l l I L, I f. L JNl\Don'TpMP.a\19443 L 4 �.. • Encourage the shared use of commercial driveways and access roads and limit the number and spacing of driveways along arterials; encourage the use of frontage roads or service drives to minimize traffic congestion and hazard • Promote high quality commercial development through local site plan reviews. • Establish landscaping guidelines and promote a downtown desigr plan to maximize aesthetics and unify the commercial district ,.. \ l - GOAL#4: Industrial Land Use Provide for industrial development in areas served by adequate transportation systems and potentially served by public utilities and services. Policies: GOAL #5: • Establish and reserve suitable land for future industrial purposes. • Expand public utilities and services in those meas identified as . desirable for industrial development • Promote the development of industrial plats rather than scattered single lot development. • Promote high quality industrial development through local site plan review. • Work with the Allegan County Growth Alliance to attract desirable manufacturing or processing operations to the area. Roads, Sewer, and Water Provide for adequate infrastructure that will ensure balanced, orderly growth and ensure the safety and well-being of Township residents. Policies: • Systematically improve Township roads giving priority to roads in areas intended to suppon the highest concentrations of development • Establish a program that ultimately results in paving of all roads in the Township. · r L JN.J\Don-TpMP,aea',89443 f ) l..' s �i • Work with Allegan County Road Commission and law enforcement agencies toward widening of 142nd Avenue and the addition of traffic safety measures such as left-hand tum lanes, deceleration lanes, and an acceptable maximum speed limiL • Provide street lighting in all present and future residential areas and at street intersections where necessary. • Study the feasibility of a separate sanitary sewer system for the Dorr area, along with funding sources. • Provide, where feasible and necessary, water, sanitary sewer, and storm sewer services in areas of the Township identified for residential, commercial, and industrial developmenL • Protect and preserve groundwater supplies by participating in statewide programs to monitor quality of groundwater and by establishing density standards that are consistent with the natural capacity of soils to handle on-site septic systems. I \. GOAL #6A&B: Public Services A. Ensure a greater level of public safety by cooperating with surrounding Townships to secure more regular police protection. Policies: • Maintain a close, cooperative relationship with the Allegan County Sheriff's Department to ens~ adequate police protection. • B. Initiate ongoing dialogue with Leighton, Hopkins, and Salem Townships to assess mutual levels of needs and possibilities of shared police services. Ensure enforcement of local zoning ordinances and building codes. Policies: • Review procedures with appropriate staff regarding enforcement and compliance. • Supply adequate training and staffing for enforcement officials. GOAL#7: f Parks and Recreation Plan for and develop active and passive outdoor recreation facilities to meet the needs of existing and future residents of the Township. JNJ\Don'I'pMP.a\89443 6 �Policies: • Pursue recreation funding from Department of Natural Resources through preparation of a Township Recreation Plan or by amending Allegan County Recreation Plan. • Design and construct bicycle paths that link commercial, residential, and recreational areas, and that link to bicycle paths beyond Township boundaries. • Plan for additions to existing parks in Dorr Township based on Recreation Park and Open Space Standards and Guidelines (National Recreation and Park Association), and local needs. ( L • GOAL#& Work .with residential developers to set aside suitable portions of land for parlcs, and road easements for pedestrian/bicycle paths. Natural F~atuns Ensure that new development takes place in an environmentally consistent and sound manner, minimizing the potential for soil erosion and disturbances to natural resources such as woodlands and wetlands, thereby preserving scenic and environmental quality. Policies: • 'Through wning and site plan review encourage approaches to land development that take natural features such as soils, topography, steep slopes, hydrology, and natural vegetation into account in the process of site design. • Encourage soil conservation practices and the prudent use of fertilizers and pesticides. • 'Through site plan review, discourage practices which would alter the natural valuable function of wetlands, especially those not protected under the State of Michigan Wetlands Protection Act (P.A. 203 of 1979). • Preserve and protect through wning those soils identified as prime agricultural soils, and utilize for development those soils not identified as having agricultural value. • Establish landscaping guidelines for existing and future commercial, industrial, and residential development which, through site plan review, would preserve and increase the numbers of trees and other woody vegetation in _the Township. . L.. .JNl\DorrTpMPlaea\89443 ( 7 . �! \ - CHAPI'ER2 PHYSICAL DESCRIPI'ION '•- r I \_ Any plan for the future must be based on knowledge of existing conditions and the · influences that have shaped the community. This chapter examines the natural features that have impacted upon the community, and have helped to determin~ what the community is today. These include the location of the community, its topography, soils, and water resources. REGIONAL SEITING Dorr Township is located in the northern tier of townships in Allegan County and consists of 36 square miles of land area. It lies approximately six miles south of the Grand Rapids Metropolitan Area, fifteen miles cast of the City of Holland, and approximately twenty-two miles cast of the La.kc Michigan shoreline.. The settlement of Dorr is situated centrally in the Township. Other residential concentrations are found at North Dorr, located along the northern boundary of the township, and at Moline, located along the eastern boundary. Dorr Township is bounded on the north by Kent County's Byron Township, on the cast by Leighton Township, on the south by Hopkins Township, and on the west by Salem Township. L United States Highway 131 traverses the eastern edge of the Township in a north/south direction, providing the principal access route to the community. This major artery also links the Grand Rapids Metropolitan Arca with the Kalamazoo Metropolitan Area. NATURAL FEATURES Geology The bedrock in Allegan County consists of Mississippian Sandston~ and Shale, which are pan of the bowl-like rock formation known as the Michigan Basin. The upper bedrock layers of Dorr Township are sandstone of the Marshall Formation. Overlying these bedrock formations is a mass of glacial drift ranging from about 50 to 400 feet in thickness, deposited when the glacial ice receded about 10,000 years ago. The physiography of Dorr Township is determined by these underlying glacial till plains resulting in surface relief that varies from flat to undulating. Topography and Drainage r- The general topography of Dorr Township is flat to moderately rolling, with no significant topographical features. The greatest variations in terrain exist in the northeastern and southwe_stem portions of the Township. l. rL JNJ\DoirTpMP.aea\19443 8 �L Four major drainage patterns can be seen in the Township. The northwestern and central western portions of the Township are in the Little Rabbit River drainage basin. The central and north central portions are in the Dorr and Byron Drain system, which flows into the Little Rabbit River Drain. The eastern portion of the Township is in the Red River drainage basin which joins the Little Rabbit River on the western side of the Township, and the southern most portions of the Township drain into the Rabbit River where it flows through Hopkins Township. The Little Rabbit River drains into the Rabbit River in southwestern Salem Township. Only a small segment (about 1.5 miles) of the Rabbit transects the southwestern comer of the Township. The Rabbit ultimately flows into the Kalamazoo River which empties into Lake Michigan at Saugatuck. A number of formal country drains provide control of drainage within the Township. (see Map 1). The Allegan County Drain Commission maintains this drainage system. No major flood plains exist in the Township. Flooding has not historically been a major problem, and the Township does not participate in the Federal Flood Insurance Program. Dorr Township has no dominant surface water features. A few small lakes and ponds are scattered throughout the Township, and sand mining in Sections 20, 21, 28, 29 and 33 has resulted in numerous small lowlands and ponds. Monterey Lake, is located about one mile west of Dorr Township in southern Salem Township. Soils The soils in Dorr Township range from well drained, sandy or loamy materials to poorly drained sandy, loamy, or silty material. The locations of these soils are an imponant consideration in both the existing and future physical development of the Township. While residents in the Moline area are served by the Moline-Dorr Sewer Authority, the balance of homes and businesses must rely on soil suitability to obtain a safe water supply and to dispose of waste. · · l. Map 2 has been prepared based on soils and their suitability for development without public sewers. The factors considered include hazards of flooding, depth to water table, percolation rate, and slope. It should be noted that the soils with severe limitations will in most cases present problems for the efficient operation of individual septic systems. B~cause of high water tables or rapid lateral movem~nt of subsurface waters in these areas, the use of septic tanks and drainage fields provides increased potential of pollution of wells and surface waters. In addition, there is a potential for seasonal flooding of basements. Intensive development in these areas often results in increased demands for public sewer and/or water systems to compensate for environmental hazards or health hazards. . .JNl\DorrTpMP,aea'89443 9 �• DORR TOWNSHIP T4N, Rl2W .. . ~~ -.~ . \ -;... . t . -In;--·. - \. •• ·) ~_.L!1!,,. . Al.LEG --- •. . • ~ . .,,,:,· . - •:I • ·. J. I J ' • . ·/" . _:_.-!J ""'; i._~-- _-._/ . . . . . v \ -_ / - : . I: -~i / ..,, • ,___ ,_......,.i:::::.._, I 1· D ,. ,.. .I .P . ,!>- - - 9CAl£ I" • . ·, _.I 2000' I I I - LEGEND > 0 . .. ' . ·. . . . . - .. -. . -. -: Cl'OI COUNTY OIIAINS . -·. ·> .·· ----- 11l£0 COUNT"f DRAINS .. ; . ~. \ I === 11.YOl! NATURAL WATER COURSl:s ftllNO~ NATURAL WATER COl.flSES - · CllAIIAGE DISTRICT CORPORATE LIMITS 1 . '· '• •=----•- STATE HtGHWAY cooon ROAD L"IMPROVED ROAD OR TRAIL !!: 4. :r U) z % U) z ~ ~ ,_ 1- z ~ l&I J 0 U) 0 l&I ~ 1- :r cc 1,1 MAP 1 FORMAL COUNTY DRAINS -...... , AL.LEGAN (Xll.NTY DRAINS DORR TOWNSHIP LYI\N B. FLDIING DRAIN co,.t.1ISSIONER D.A. RATEON ..,_: I,.. ... UNO ·-,~')?'· a ASSOCIATES, IIICMIGAII DATE INC. ~~s'i/.;T--.u,IUMI, 49010 S1€ET NO._aF_ �) BYRON T\./P, ti <KEHT CIJ.M"Y> ti t; t; . t; ,-: ~ "' ~, ~ -~1 = =--J -__ ~. ~ 146TH AVE, -.,: ~ ~ .,~ l4 ◄ TH MOLINE I I I 1\\\1 144TH AVE, a.. 0... '.:) ~ I-- I-~ 142ND AVE, w _J Z D 1-- <t :r: (I) L'.) 1-1 w _J 140TH AVE, 8TH AVE. 136 13(,TH AVE, ~ .,, ,-: ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ HOPKINS T\./P. MAP 2 4> ....... b-£..11" DORR TOWNSHIP ALLEGAN COUNTY SUIT ABLE SOILS FOR DEVELOPMENT 1990 T J.£!lftlll: - SOILS WHICH ME GENEIW.1.Y SUITABLE f'OR ON SIT£ SEPTIC SYSTEMS lWO OR MORE Of lliE FOLLOWING CHAAACTOIJS'llCS: - SOIL PERCOLATION RATE - SLOl'E(lfSS 1liAN 1&:l) - OEPlH OF HIGH WA'IER TABI.£ - NO FLOOD HA2ARO our ro OH-SITE IINES'TIGATION MAY S11U. BE NECESSARY TO DETERMINE SEPTIC SYSTEM SUITABIUTY. _IU.ll,A, _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ , , , ~ - - -................... ..~·.!:...-=-V ___ ___ ._... �) / BYRON T\./P, I:; t; <KE:NT C!UflY) ti t; I:; t:; ~ ~ 141TH 144TH AV[, CL ~ CL ~ I- I~ HZND AV[, w _J ~ (I') Z D II L'.J 141ST AVE., ':- 'I ,I I >--< I w 20 I .....J =----p I I 140TH AV[, 8TH AVE:. I I I 136TH AVE, t; ill J -, I 136TH AVE. A ru ~ ~ ~ HOPKINS T\./P. MAP 3 {f DORR TOWNSHIP ALLEGAN COUNTY PRIME & UNIQUE FARMLAND SOILS 1990 Uli£lilt. - PRIME FARr.11.ANO SOILS >S DEFINED BY THE U.S. DEPT. Of AGRJCULTIJRE WHICH ME SEST SUITED TO FOOD, FEED, FORAGE F1BER ANO OIL SEED CROPS. CERTAIN AREAS MAY l!E PRIME fARMIAND ONLY WHEN WEU. DRAINEO OR NOT FlOODED DURING CROWlt-lC SEASON, UNIQUE FARMLAND IS USED FOR THE PRODUCTION OF HIGH-VALUE FOOD AND F1BE/I CROPS. EJW,IPLES Of SUCH CROPS ARE \IEGETABLES Al-ID TREE. VINE. AND BERRY FRUITS. .. ..:::i!!t.•.!:.,..~v -11.1.D.A. _ _ _ _ _ _ "-'ll/lY<#.IUSolHCIOIIIIY. _____ .___ ......... _.... .,.._ �By mapping these soils according to their suitability for development, patterns are identified which make it possible to determine ·the development potential of specific areas. Altl,lough the map is not intended as a substitute for on-site investigation or detailed engineering studies, it does generally define those areas that should be considered as suitable for development Soils which generally have unsuitable characteristics for building or septic use may still be useful with on-site modifications or detailed site analysis. However, significant development in these areas will increase the need for public utilities. Another important feature of soils within Dorr Township are the soils that arc considered as prime or unique farm land by the United State Departmc~t of Agriculture. Prime farmland, as defined by the U.S. Department of Agriculture, is the land that is best suited to food, feed, forage, fiber, and oilseed crops, and produces the highest yields with minimal inputs of energy and economic resources. Unique farmland is land other than prime farmland dw is used far the production of spec:i:fic high-value food and fiber crops, such as vegetables and ne, vine, and berry fruits. Map 3 delineaaes the soils within Dorr Township dw ~ consideml as prime er unique agriculture IOils. I. �,. I l CHAPTER 3 COMMUNITY FACILITIES The Township's community facilities are those which provide tangible services to the residents. A well rounded set of services is necessary to meet the needs of a growing community like Dorr Township. The services provided are discussed briefly below: ~ I I Township Offices - The Township Hall is located at 4194 18th Street. The building was constructed in 1990 and financed by a bond issue through · the Dorr Downtown Development Authority (DOA). Included in the hall are offices for Township officials, a meeting room, conference room, lounge, and three bays for fire trucks. Also, the hall provides office space for the Wayland Arca Medical Service Corporation which provides emergency medical services for Wayland and surrounding areas including Dorr Township. The Township offices will be staffed initially on a pan-time basis, and future plans are to provide office space for a pan-time police officer. Fire Service - The Township utilizes 20-22 volunteer fire fighters as well as a FU"C Chief and Assistant Fire Orief who arc compensated for their services. F°U"C fighting equipment maintained at the Dorr Township Hall includes two pumper trucks, two tank trucks, a jeep, and an equipment van. The cost of an additional tanker truck housed in Moline is shared through an agreement with the Leighton Township F°U'C DcpartmcnL Public Safety - General police protection is provided by the Allegan County Sheriff's Department and the Michigan State Police out of the Wayland post. The Township will be considering a future contract with the Allegan County Sheriff's Department for a parttime officer, and may consider sharing this officer jointly with Leighton Tov.,islup. Libraries - Dorr Township maintains two libraries: The Dorr Township Libraty located at 1807 142nd Avenue in Dorr, and The Moline Public Library located at 4410 Oiappcll in Moline. Financial support is provided through the Township General Fund, Leighton Township, and through book fines collected in Allegan County. Dorr Township has its own library board and is a member of the Lakeland Librmy Cooperative. .Fu~ plans include expansion of The Dorr Township Library into the old adjo~g fire barn. 1- Cemeteries - Six Cemeteries arc located throughout the Township: in Dorr on 142nd Avenue, at North Dorr on 108th Street, on 17th Street north of 146th, on 138th Avenue at ,- 22nd Street, at St Stanislaus Catholic Church on 136th Avenue, and on 14th Street nonh of 142nd Avenue. These facilities are maintained by Dorr Township. Educational Facilities - Two school districts serve Dorr Township. Wayland Union Schools, serving most of the population, maintains a IC-4th grade elCIDl!otary IChool locatai at 4159 18th Street in Dorr, and another elementary school far 5th IDd 6th pllde students at 1148 1st Stteet in Moline. Hopkins Public Schools, tcnina soutbem pmdons 14 �r I -- of the Township, maintain Sycamore -Elementary School at 2163 142nd Avenue in Dorr. St. Stanislaus Catholic School, located at 1871 136th Avenue, houses grades pre-school through 8th, and Moline Christian School at 1253 1st Street in Moline provides classrooms for grades pre-school through 9th. Parks and Recreation - The Dorr Recreation Association has authority over recreational programming in the Township. With grant monies, the Association has hired a part-time director. Programming includes baseball and softball programs as well as Rocket Football. One of the main goals of the Rceteation Association is to acquire more land for recreational purposes. Two parks are found in Dorr Township, located across from one another on 142nd Avenue. On the north side of 142nd lies the Dorr Township Park. consisting of nine acres. Facilities include two baseball ~nds and three softball diamonds, two basketball couns, lighted tennis couns, and a shelter with kitchen. South of 142nd is Gries Park, managed by the Dorr Recreation Association. Gries Parle, consisting of seven acies, has two ball diamonds, bathrooms, an enclosed shelter with kitchen, and an open covered sh~lter. Dorr Township provides some maintenance assistance at the park and may assist further with maintenance in the future. The privately owned Hungry Horse Wilderness Campground is located south of 142nd Avenue west of Dorr. Situated on a parcel over 90 acres, the campground offers hiking and hayrides, a swimming pool, and campsites on about ten ( 10) acres. A private recreational area exists at Sandy Pines on Monteray Lake in neighboring Salem Township. While a Sandy Pines membership is required to take advantage of the recreational opportunities found there, limited public access is available on the lake. Public fishing and boat launching is also found on Green Lake, three miles cast of Dorr Township in neighboring Leighton Township. Other regional recreation areas include the Allegan State Game Arca, approximately five miles from the Township limits, and Yankee Springs State Park. located approximately eight miles southeast of the Township in Barry County. Gun Lake County Park is located approximately eight miles southeast of Dorr Township in Wayland Township. Historical Sites - Other than several Centennial farms, no designated, historical sites exist in the community. Buildings having historical significance include the site of Tony's Antique Shop, which is a former school house, and St. Stanislaus Catholic Church on 136th Avenue, which is over 100 years old. A former one-room school house located on 138th Avenue just east of 14th Street may also be of historical significance. JNJ\DorrTpMP..'89443 _ lS �Utilities - Dorr residents obtain water exclusively through private wells. The majority of residents utilize drainfields for wastewater disposal. However, residents of Moline are served by the Moline-Dorr Sewer Authority established in 1978. The Sewer Authority was funded through a grant from the United States Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) and continues to be financed by hook-up and user .fees. The system, which is not yet at full capacity, serves approximately 200 homes with the potential of serving about one hundred more. The lagoon treatment facility for the system is located east of old U.S. 131 in Leighton Township. The-Authority is considering expansion of the system north of Moline to accommodate future industrial and residential development. Some residents of Dorr Township have found it necessary to double the siz.e of their drainfields to handle increased water usage. Commercial establishments near downtown Dorr have also been limited in drain field capacity due to existing high water table. Intensive commercial and industrial development in the Township is limited in those areas not served by tbe Sewer Ambarity Service Alea. - l Solid Waste Dispoaal - Dem Township ntilizes the South Kent Landfill located west al U.S. 131 off 100th Street in Bymn Township. Tim facility hu a paopw,owcl HI, expectancy of at least 10 years; length of service will be influenced by ICmt County's m:endy constructed solid waste incincntm. No 1l'8DSfer facilities exist in die Towmbip. A recycling station is being COllSlnlCled by Allepn County at 1620 14'-l A.._ ia downtown Don-. Allepn· County bas sugesaect mancina of NC)'Clina efl'a.uitllniap a mandatory fee! impoacd upon poperty ownen ill the Townsbip. Roads and TnNpOl"tatloa - Tbc .._ sysrem forms the IDOlt basic framework for growth and development of a O'IJIIAIDity. By pmvklina a ma DI illtlenlll 111d ex1emal circulation, it lm'¥el CM CO!HRIIPDity by belpina lbape die !r1 lily W Thus, this costly and long-Jasdng ~Jemmt beeomea aee of die w d)'llllllie , _ . . , cnmmunity. · • The st=t follows: system D'Yin, Den Townsbip, iDnSUted aa Map 4. eap --c. . .. . _ Co,,,,.,,.d Accas Ai"teriaJs • These fadlides (US-131) IMl!ftilWft'l function bGt instead are devotrd ~ to latp ~ ~ traffic at rebdivel)' . - , malii-Jw, ilMdad a �Major Rural Anerials (county primary)-This class of streets serves major movements of I - traffic within or through the area. Mainly designed to move traffic, the secondary function is to provide land service. This class of street typically interconnects major state anerial highways. According to the Allegan County Road Commission map, county primary roads in Dorr Township include 146th Avenue (unpaved:), a portion of 144th Avenue, 142nd Avenue, a portion of 22nd Street, all of 18th Street, the portion of 14th Street that joins 142nd and 144th, and 12th Street north of Moline. Collector Streets (county local) - These streets provide internal traffic movement within specific areas and connect those areas with the major arterial system. Generally, they are not continuous for great length. The rural collector street is intended to supply abutting property with the same degree of access as a local street,. while at the same time carrying the "collected" traffic of local streets. Traffic control devices may be installed to protect and facilitate movement of traffic; however, these devices would not be u elaborate as those on arterial st1ee11. In rural areas like Dorr Township, rural collectors typically represent the highest pc:m,naq, of street miles. Within Dorr there arc currently 11 miles of paved collector streecs and 54 miles of gravel collcctors. Local Feeder Stree_ts - ~e sole function of these streets is to provide accea to immediately adjacent piopeny. In developed areas, they make up the major pm,entap of the streets of the community, but carry a small proportion of the vehicle-.U.S of travel. In Dorr Township, examples of these streets include those within Dorr, and developed subdivisions. Mott.. l I I The Allegan County Road Commission is responsible for the maintenance ..S improvement of all roads in Dorr Township, excluding private roads and U.S.-131. 1le County is currently into the third year of its second five year resurfacing prograa 11a program recogniz.es six groups of four townships each, with Dorr·being pan of a lft:IIP that includes Leighton, Wayland, and Hopkins townships. Over each five year each group of townships shares equally in monies available through the County roads resurfacing millage. Each fall, officials from the Allegan County Road Commission meet with local to determine resurfacing priorities. In 1985 and 1989, during the resurfacing of of 142nd Avenue and 18th Street, Dorr Township contributed additional funds to paved shoulders along portions of these roads. In Dorr Township, the rebuilding and surfacing of 146th Avenue, which is almost entirely a gravel road, has been designaled u a pricrity. Surfacing of 17 �r• r will be accomplished in two stages with the township sharing costs at a rate of $25,000 per mile, approximately a 10 percent match. I f Improvements to County local roads may be requested by township officials. In which case the township then bears 100% of the cost of those improvements. The Road Commission may provide improvement services of the township may let a request for bids. Conditions ·of roads in the township ·are generally good. Some surface crai;.king on Division Street (Old U.S.-131) has resulted due to using old, cracked asphalt as a subsurface, and is cu.rrcntly under repair. CQncems cU1TCntly facing Dorr Township are primarily the existing and projected traffic volumes along 142nd Avenue from the center of Dorr east to the U.S.-131 freeway, and along 18th Street north of Dorr which provides access to and from Byron Center in Kent County. Continued population growth and development in and adjacent to Dorr Township will generate increased traffic. As shown in Table 1, recent traffic counts by the Allegan County Road Commission show traffic volumes cU1TCntly operating within their 24-hour designed capacity. 1. A 2. 7 mile long segment of the Pennsylvania Railroad transects the northeast corner of the Township. Air transportation is provided by the Kent Count International Airport, located about 15 miles northeast of the Township in Kent County, and by the South Kent Airpon located south of 64th Street in Byron Township, which provides service for private aircraft and training flights. No public transportation is available in Dorr Township. • JNN>on'I'~3 18 �Table 1 DORR TOWNSHIP 24 - Hour Traffic Counts and Capacity at Selected Locations by Year r 24-Hour Locatiao l L Intcrsection-142nd Avenue at 18th Street North: South: East : West: 2. lntersection-142nd Avenue at 16th Street South: East : West: 3. 'Intersection-144th Avenue at 18th Street South: 4. lntersection-144th Avenue at 16th Stn:et East: Somce: 1988 Caaaciti: 8,000 8,000 8,000 8,000 4,286 3!Xl1 3,242 6,717 S,328 2,000 (gravel) 8,000 8,000 1990 2.121 6,822 5,752 282 6,638 6,663 8,000 130 146 • 2,000 (lravel) 156 165 • Allegan County Road Ow,,miuiaa • 1990 Bs1ima1es hued upoo 4,. UICRllle ia amnber ot wllicJes per ,-r. per ~ hours OD majer paved anerials; 2,. inaase far pawl ft1ldL �) l BYRON Tw'P, <KENT ClllMY> t; ~ ~ ~ I. -+ ~T , 1• ■ ,tr• ■ • ■ t■ ■ 1•• ■ ■ ■,■ •j ■ ■ L■ c~~ ■ \~;e • • • ■•■■• ■■ ~-,C:i~ .\. l ~46TH AVE. ~ .,,. ~ i•-··r k--t---J'f:::;:::}:::: 4>Et---~-- ----~ ....u.. ~M□,:!~EAVL 142ND AVL Z □ f- -_, I l!) w I -=:::-___,. - 140TH AV[, 27 291 25 I LLJ ~~--t--~--r-·~ ~ J_R::--t---- f' ---- -----½----- --r -~ ,,...... ... ~ 33 0 ~i----·-rt·;t ------ 1 I a) 1 ~r-~ l..f-7L~---~.,C-+---b,----~il 136TH AV[, I HOPKINS Tw'P. MAP 4 DORR TOWNSHIP ALLEGAN COUNTY EXISTING STREET CLASSIFICATION LIJilllD; • ■ ■ • DPflfSSWA'W(CONlROL ACClESS AftlDIIAL) MAJOII All'IERIAL(COUNTY PRIMARY ROADS) PAVED COUECTDRS • - - • UNl'AIIEI) COUECTOftS LOCAL S1REETS ---~~----.,~- �CHAPTER 4 SOCIAL AND ECONOMIC CHARACTERISTICS Understanding the people of Dorr Township will help establish the basis for developing the Master Plan. This discussion will review the Township population characteristics and trends, as well as economic conditions and housing characteristics of the community. Population Characteristics - Table 2 illustrates past growth and future population projections of Dorr Township relative to the four sutTOunding Townships. Populations shown are for unincorporated areas only. The table indicates that between 1960 and 1970, Dorr Township experienced a 32% increase in population, greater than the rate experienced by any of the surrounding townships and Allegan County as a whole. Between 1970 and 1980, Dorr Township increased it's population by 64%, or double the rate of the previous decade. This increase was largely due to the development of Ranchero Estates and Litchfield Downs Subdivision constructed under the FHA 235 Housing Program. Again, this growth significantly surpassed the surrounding townships and Allegan County. 1990 U.S. Census figures indicate a much slower rate of growth, 8.8%, between 1980 and 1990 for Dorr Township. Both Hopkins and Leighton Townships show a somewhat higher rate of growth than Dorr Township, as docs the County as a whole. Both Salem and Byron (Kent County) Townships show a significantly higher rate of growth than Dorr Township over the past decade, but those rates do not vary greatly from the previous decade. Table 3 illustrates building permit activity in Dorr Township over the past five years, and permits taken out through April of 1990. The data show an average of 39 new single family homes each year since 1985, and a trend for 1990 that shows that this average will likely be surpassed. Using the average household size of 3.4 people given for Dorr Township in the 1990 Census information, if 40 new homes are constructed in 1990, the community will experience approximately 136 persons residing in new dwellings in 1990. Areas where high concentrations of property splits or subdivisions have OCCUired arc indicators of where growth is occurring in the Township. Map 5 indicates that over the past ten (10) years, development activity has primarily been in Sections 15 {where Pine View Estates, Hidden Forest, and Nonhview Subdivisions arc located), 19, 20, 21 {Pine Hills Subdivision), 22, and 31. Another important factor when considering Dorr's population profile is the age of its residents. Table 4 shows the age breakdown as reported in the_ 1980 U.S. Census, and compares Dorr Township to Allegan County as a whole. Median age is also given for both jurisdictions. Dorr Township exhibits a youthful population, with 44% of it's residents under twenty years of age, and 39% in the child-bearing years of ages 20-44 years. Another 12% of Dorr Township's residents are in the 45-65 years age group, and only 4.5% arc age 65 or older. The Township is younger than the county as a whole, with a median age of 23.7 compared to 28.5 in Allegan County. JNl\DorrTpMP,-'89443 21 �_ BYRON__,, HIP. Ii i; i i Ii ~ 2 l. 0.: ....> 0.: > 1-- -•"'L Cz ....::c %: lo.I _. < "' I - 8 w _. ..... 25 I \ . HOPKINS T \JP. IIAP 6 DORR TOWNSHIP ALLEGAN COUNTY LOT SPLITS 1880-1990 BY SECTION ,· I 22 �-- ~--·~ -... , I r - ' ' .,.--1 ' ~ 7 -·1 / TABLE2 Historical Population Change Dorr Township and Surrounding Townships• 1960-1990 Municipality 1960. % Absolute Chan1e Cbam:e 1970 '¼, Absolute Chance Chan1e 1980 % Absolute Chan1e Chance 1990 DorrTwp. 2,313 32.1 742 3,055 64.1 1,959 5,014 8.8 439 5,453 Leighton Twp. 1,951 20.7 403 2,354 - 17.8 418 2.772 10.7 297 3,069 Hopkins Twp. 1,766 18.0 318 2,084 1.2 25 2.100 11.4 241 2,350 Salem Twp. 1,459 19.5 285 1,744 25.2 439 2,183 24.1 525 2,708 Byron Twp. (Kent Co.) 6,036 24.l 1,457 7,493 34.8 2,611 10,104 30.0 3,131 13,235 Allegan Co. 57,729 13.3 8,846 66,575 18.4 14,980 81,555 11.0 8,954 90,5()() Source: 19(i(), 1970, and 1980 and 1990 U.S. Census Excludes population of incorporated areas • JNN>orrTpMP-aea\89443 23 �-•- --~ _,,- .-.,......, -~-) ., Table 3 RECENT DORR TOWNSHIP DEVELOPMENT ACTIVITY BUILDING PERMITS ISSUED 1985 -1990 (April) 19851 19861 19872 19882 19892 19902 (Through April) Single Family Homes Mobile Homes (Double Wide) Stores and Customer Service Multi-Family Buildings 22 26 43 ---- ---- ---- 1 (Hillcrest Mall) ---- 4 ---- --- -------- Office/Professional Government SoUJCe: 2 JNN>orrTpMP\aca'\89443 ---- ----- 54 27 222 ---- 1 3 3 4 1 ---- 10 ---- 1 50 1 (6 units) ---- ---- Dorr Township Offices Professional Ccxie Inspections of Michigan, Inc. 24 TOTAL 2 (6 units) ---- 2 ,-•·-· ~ �{ l.,.._ Table4 Age of Residents r 1980 % under 20yrs L %From 20-44 %From 45 -64 %65 years years years and over Median Age Dorr Township 44.3 39.1 12.2 4.S 23.7 Allegan County 35.5 36.0 18.2 10.3 28.5 Source: 1980 U.S. Census Data Tables Per ·eapita Income 1979 and 1987 Place 1979Per Capita Inoome 1 1987 Per Percent Capita Income2 Chanu Dorr Township 6,063 9,003 48.5 l Leighton Township 7,051 ·10,441 48.1 r· l , Hopkins Township Salem Township 6,262 5,968 9,754 9,794 55.8 64.11 l Byron Township (Kent County) 7,364 11,650 58.2 Allegan County 6,744 10,440 54.8 State of Michigan 7,688 11,973 55.7 r L rJ Source: 1 2 1980 U.S. Census U.S. Census Fi~s It ' rL JNN>on-T~3 2S �r r r I Another important factor when considering Dorr's population profile is the age of its residents. Table 4 shows the age breakdown as reported in the 1980 U.S. Census, and compares Dorr Township to Allegan County as a whole. Median age is also given for both jurisdictions. Dorr Township exhibits a youthful population, with 44% of it's residents under twenty years of age, and 39% in the child-bearing years of ages 20-44 years. Another 12% of Dorr Township's residents are in the 45-65 years age group, and only 4.5% are age 65 or older. The Township is younger than the county as a whole, with a median age of23.7 compared to 28.5 in Allegan County. Households - In 1980, there were 1,380 households in Dorr Township which is an increase of 80.4% over the 1970 figure according to U.S. Census data. As mentioned above, the average number of pcrsops per household in 1980 was 3.63 which was higher than the Allegan County household average of 2.95 persons. Preliminary 1990 U. S. Census figures show 1,581 occupied housing units in the Township (an increase of 14.6%) and an average household size of 3.4 persons (average household size takes into account a vacancy of36 households in the Township). I . I Economic Characteristics - A comparison of income levels for 1979 and 1980 in Dorr Township, sU1TOunding townships, Allegan County and the State of Michigan reveals that Dorr Township experienced the second lowest increase in per capita income from 1979 to 1987 (sources: 1980 U.S. Census and 1987 Census figures), surpassing only Leighton Township slightly. In 1987, Dorr showed the lowest income level compared to the other stated jurisdictions, and in both 1979 and 1987 Dorr Township fell below both county and state averages·for per capita income. (Sec Table 5). I1- . JNN:>orrTpMP'-\89443 L. 26 �I ,r. CHAPfER 5 EXISTING LAND USE AND ANALYSIS r This chapter describes the existing land uses in the Township and compares and analyzes the land use changes which have occlllTCd since 1978, when a complete land use inventory of the Township was completed through the Michigan Resource Information System (MIRIS). This evaluation is a necessary tool in assessing the character 9f a community, identifying problems and opportunities, and will also be very useful in developing goals and objectives to guide future development Table 6 contains a tally of acreage assigned to specific land uses, and changes which have occurred since 1978. The existing land uses are illustrated on Map 6. This map was completed in August of 1990 using plat maps, field inspections, and through conversations with Township officials. Structures under construction at the time of this land use survey were classified as existing land uses. Generally, the land developed for residential and commercial uses is concentrated near the center of the Township at Dorr and on the east side of the Township at Moline. The predominant land use in these areas is detached single family houses in subdivisions. Other significant residential development has occlllTCd in the southwest quadrant, with primarily single family homes located on parcels over one acre in size. The existing land uses in the Township have been classified into a number of categories which arc described as follows: AGRICULTURE This category includes those lands used for cropland, orchard, or pasture at the time of the land use survey. The amount of land devoted to this use decreased appreciably since 1978, with a loss of 1010 acres, or 6.2% of the agricultural land existing in 1978. This decrease can be directly related to the increase in residential land use, and to a lesser extent the increase in commercial and industti.al land use. However, over half of the Township (66.1 % ) is still designated as agricultural, with most of that used as cropland. The majority of fannland lies in the upper one-half of the Township and in the central portion of the southeast quadrant L l Many parcels of land in the Township are enrolled in Public Act 116 of 1974, The Fannland and Open Space Preservation Act, with a total of S,421 acres or 23.5% of the . total land in the Township enrolled. Under this land, farmers or owners of large tracts of open space forego the development rights to their land and continue to farm it or maintain it as open space for a minimum enrollment period of ten years in exchange for tax benefits. ~\119443 �Map 7 illustrates those areas of the Township enrolled in P.A. 116; large contiguous areas of land enrolled in P.A. 116 occur in sections 8 and 9, and also in section 12. RESIDENTIAL This category includes detached single family houses, multi-family dwelling units and mobile home parks. In the future, this category could also include condominiums which can be constructed as either multi-family units or single family detached homes, both owner occupied. The Township has one multi-family apartment complex, located on Church Street, south of the intersection of 18th Street and 142nd Avenue. The complex contains 16 units housed in three buildings. Two mobile home parks exist in the Township; one is located on 138th Avenue just east of the Township boundary at 24th Street. It has room for 50 units. Another is located at the eastern end of 143rd avenue where it intersects 17th Street, and also has room for 50 units. The predominant residential land use in the Township is the detached single family house, which comprises 8.0% of the total Township area or 1849 acres. This is nearly double the acreage reported as residential in 1978. While most of the additional acreage is a result of homes on parcels of over one acre in size, 121 acres is due to lots located in platted subdivisions. When determining new residential acreage outside of platted subdivisions, a parcel over 20 acres in size with a new home was considered to equal 5 new acres of residential land use; parcels of 20 acres or less were considered totally residential in character. As previously mentioned, most of the residential activity outside of platted subdivisions has occurred in the southwest quadrant of the Township, nearly half of which is zoned Rural Estate, which requires a minimum lot size of one acre. These acreage lots are generally located along paved and unpaved county line roads, and many of these parcels are narrow and very long. This type of land division results in lots which are often unused or underused in the rear section, and may hinder the development of future platted subdivisions by making road extensions and land assemblage difficult JNN)onTpMp\aea\Jl9443 29 �) ) ti IOl1H ST. ti ! IN ~, ti iCI (KEHT COUNTY) Iii ii ~ BYRON TWP. Iii ~ Iii ,.: "' ~- I Iii ;I ~ ~I I I .. Iii ~ N 1"1H A\£. ~. ~Ji~4a1W I I I ti, ~ I "JI ,.,~~ ~ I I ...15 I 146TH A',£. IHTH A\.f:. B Q_ 3: ~ I- w -J <( 142ND A\.f:. (/) 141ST A\£. ...} I ,, z 0 II (.'.) --- w _J ( - 10 29 I l~ I 32 I I -1--....,..,--,..~-lii--1:I - - - ~ ..L I ~ "' "-../ J I J ; ~---~"'~ ~ 25 -+t,~ 137TH A\'E. 13'lH A\£. ~ N 0 --r I O ) I Iii ~ I - , I. 7I 'j-~ ) l I- '""' 1Jli11i A"E e HOPKINS TWP. MAP 7 ~ W!14' :.;A, DORR "TOWNSHIP ALLEGAN COUNTY P.A. 116 LANDS T 1990 Ltmlll; - P.A. - "!£AA OF EXPIRATION 1111 LANDS - -.-...... _ .. _,r ................... .. .......... -.... --~ --.. -. �COMMERCIAL/OFFICE This category includes those uses which provide retail goods and services and office uses. Since 1978, commercial and office uses in the Township have nearly tripled, increasing ~ 25 to 75 acres, yet still COIDplise only .3CJ> of the total land use. Commercial uses in the Township are located along 142nd Avenue from east of 16th street to 20th Street, and along 18th Street primarily just nonh and south of 142nd Avenue. Commeicial development in the settlement of Dorr includes the Hillcrest Mall completed in 1986, which provides a grocery store, restaurant, children's clothing store, a bowling ally, and other available retail space. Other commcrcial uses in Dorr serve retail and service needs of the local population. · Another small CODlmelcw area is located in Moline, just west of the Conrail Tracks and nonh of 144th Avenue. These uses also serve the needs of local residents. Along 142nd Avenue, the major east-west route in the Township, land is mned for commcrcial use to a depth of 500 feet between 12th Township to 20th ·street four· miles west. The result commercial uses in a strip-development pattern. Currmdy, office uses are found west of 16th Street to just west 142nd Avenue retains a rural residential and agricul some industtial uses found west of the interchange at the Township's eastern boundary. Concerns 10 be addlll!l6lii!liil• 8111Ufdilllll._ roadway should include the number and placement ot, signs, and landscaping requirements for existing and furm. •1111••1-•••• In Moline, the area mned for commcrcial uses includll between the US 131 Expressway and 14th Street, the US 131, and an area west of the Conrail Traclcs enena• Avenue. The concerns mentioned above for 142nd Av,,ea•1■ of 144th Avenue zoned for CODJmeiew. Since neighboring Leighton Township, COIDiDeicw devel impacted by similar development in Leighton 'IiC>WJUhifl·t •,11 policy concerning the futme of 144th Avenue will be Another large one mile square area, section 30, is Currendy, DO COIDWCICial uses exist in this section. contains a greara, amount of forested land than any · section is bounded on the west by 24th Stmet which is Avenue which is a gravel road. No Olher public road addition, with the exception of a mobile home part in section, liuJe residendaJ. development JJu OCCUlled conn11Cldal development in this an:a should tab Imo access, the nnl cJmacu::rof the --.am1 die ....i 1'11111rztilli'UJli ill �INDUSTRIAL This category includes such uses as manufacturing, warehousing, and processing of goods and materials as well as the outdoor storage of goods and materials. Extractive operations, such as ~ gravel, and oil or gas mnoval may also be considered industrial in nature. • uses in Dorr Township compdse only .3C1, of the total land use, but still show a greater than tluce-fold increase since 1978. This increase is due to the development of Industrial industrial areas just west of the US 131 Interchange at 142nd Avenue and east of the Conrail tracks north of Moline as well as to the presence of scattered smaller industrial uses throughout the Township. ~ north of 144th Avenue between tbe US 131" ~ 111d contains over SOO acres of land zoned far iPduadal use. A dWIJllll'8IICIIII near Moline will likely be served by die ez.i-rtna leW' Mndll!!lll. bat ftlllll,..., development in the Township will ~ Jimiled by die •lwwe of The service. one,..... Some extractive uses also exist in the Towasbip, 111d while 1111d 111d .,,,.._ - • • h a v e ~ in number since 1978, at leut CII t&li Avenue has continued to expand its ~ Mio. lefttal all • operating in the southwest quadrant of tbe TOWllllaqt. mfie . . JJl: PUBLIC/SEMI-PUBLIC This category includes those areas and park,s. and golf courses which are a --....._ uses are those used by a limited n generally non-profit in nature such as and medical or institutional facilities. The Existing Land Use Map identifies dll ....,_ of the public/semi-public uses by symbol As indicated in Table 6, the increase . (by ten acres) resulting in essentially the 1978. The increase represents the 14th Street, and IDCft accurate ei.U.:-..~.tt;:;ii ~ ........ .._.._...._l'tll_ �SCHOOLS More than half of the Township, primarily the central and northeast paniom, is in die Wayland Union Public School Disttict, while the remah•da- lies within the Hopkins Public School District. · Wayland Union Schools maincain -an elcmemm:y ~ I on 18th Sa. in the •ldement of Dorr, serving 500 lbJdents in grades IC-4th pade. The Den ElfllmDtlly Scbeol completed an expansion propam in the fall of 1990 adctin1 fifteen ~ and a gymnasium. Students in 5th and 6th grades attend the elementary school in Moline, in neighboring Leighton Township. Population trends for this area indicate that die elementary schools will condnue 10 expcricnce p)Wtb. The Hopkins School Dillrict m,inudn1 die Sycamore BJeaauay School an 142nd Avenue, in the west central section of tbe Township, 111d telWS audellls from botll Dorr and Salem Townships. Tbe bnilctina homes 1.50 elementary ltWlents in fhe ftJGIDI, functioning at grealBr than desip ClplCU)'. VOla'I recend)' tamed down a bcmdlna request for funding 1D expand the builctina, and 1be requea will be 1nupi Wen Ibo voters again in the fall of 1990. Aa:mdina ID scbool ......... lft)Wdl in Darrad Salem Townships exceeds powlh in tbe m,wining pon:iom of lbe ac:hool cllaic&. Moline Christian School, knted in die leCdenent of Moline. hu a 1990 . . . . _ figure of 208 students in ll'ldes lC-9cb pade, plm 45 JD ICbool lOJden1L "nll . . _ hit experienced a 25% incaase in e,__.lal)·lpcf Jtndeals OWl'lbe lllt . _ ,-a.llld added portable classmams., accneaamaae tbe IIOWdl. Scbao1 .........._. ,._ stated that continued powtb will rel8lt in ID cffiJn to e+a..cl die ecilrina Wiff. St Stanislaus Catholic School kJCaled It the ..,.dmn .....,. fl Street enrolls 138 snldents in grades pre-school dnap 811P ..,., class in 1990 indicates p,wth far the IChoal. T.be . _ . lddecl four of which are r uendy in w u ckt1.llhiDL TIie expected growth in tbe . . . fDlln., RECREATION The amount of land . ._Rllll!!ld Local recreation Dorr and Gries acres. In addition, south of 142nd A.ven.11111•~ • recreational uses. Elementary School �TABLE 8 EXISTING LAND USE: CHANGES SINCE . 1971 1990 Land Use Residential Acres '5of Tatal U7I Acres ae,. '5of Tatal Acns lncrelse 1885 8.2 970 4.2 +915 +94.3 1849 7 29 8.0 • .1 - - -- - Commercial/Offices 73 .3 25 .1 +41 +192 Agricultural (includes cropland orchar~ and pasture) 15,227 66.1 16.237 70.5 -1010 -6.2 5,421 23.5 Industrial 58 .3 17 .1 +41 +241.2 Public/Semi-public · eludes schools, parks, .:metcries, outdoor recreation, institutions, government bldgs.) 65 .3 59 .3 ,116 +10.2 Transportation •Roads •Rail •Air 735 689 36 10 3.2 3.0 .2 Utilities 255 1.1 Extractive 26 .1 Open Water 16 .1 Total acres in use 11,UG •Single Family •Multi-Family •Mobile Homes •P.A. 116 (farmland and open space preservation) Fmested • - Nece: RelOIIII �CHAPTER' PLANNING ANALYSIS This section of the Plan anal)'7,a populad.oa. traffic volume projectiom, exicdag land me mix, growth trends and cmnouoity cbmc1eristics in order to de&ermine futl.n 1111d me: needs for Dair Township. Tbroap this pmces., the Township Board 111d PJmmina Commission will have a basic 11rideline to ·follow in detamining how macl land ii needed to acc:nmn1oda1e future needs. POPULATION PROJECl'IONS When making popu1adon projecdons, usumptions are based on a combination of historical trends and judpments made wida a knowledp of the local ara. PJojecdona me only !dined esrimeea of fulln CGiditioas and it ii hq,nuible 10 pecilely foncut the end result of the actions of individual ad public deciliom. While recognizing the aocertaiotia in fanca-rin1 faun ,opuJadoa ......... it ia reasonable to assume that the fon:es at wodc in die put will candnue imo fbe. llllill~ Table 7 illustraies popu)ation ptujectiom far the years 1995, 2000, and 2010 alias four diffe:n:nt methods to calc11J11e futln populadom. An expJanadaa al each al dae four methods used is also deac:ribed in dlis table. Far pmpmra of dlis ~~ D hu been selected a it iepaeae:ms an awn., of line diffeaeat IIIBdlods of JIN.lecdna ~---Dll!l- ••••w. - -- -- popu1adon and integraaes bislnical powth .... Bwd • tllil could be expected to experience an tncnue of 804 people by 1 year 2,000, and 3,m by die yell' 2010. AIP•n•ie,1 an .,,.._ tJI M - - ·· household, 1,110 new dwelling IIIIDI will be wrlod in lbe , - , 2018 • 11a1illllilliiDdl•-ll1W projected popu)alioa. RESIDENTIAL LAND USE NEBDS --............ In DmT Tawnsbip, .._..,.. Gllllide. ofl dlcli ._,....,_ ia - - plats wDl . ........ lilefcrtre �3. 4. 5. The consauction of additional sanitary sewer may encourage more plat development which uses less land per lot. • The advent of site_ condominium development will minimize the need 1D Cl9l1e parcels in excess of ten (10) acres to cimimvent the Township and State of. Michigan's land subdivision ~ o n s . Also, the Subdivision Conaml Act of 1967 which regulates the size and ti.ming of land divisions will likely amended within this planning period. As land costs increase the demand for mulµ-family residential units (lpllWWW or condominiums) will also increase resulting in more dwelling unm per acre, thereby decreasing the average lot size in the Township. It is assumed that the average lot size outside of platted subdivisio~s will deCreue from five acres to two acres. It is also assumed that the average lot size for a plaued lat wiD remain at .SO acres including road right-of-way. In light of these assumptioas dlll1. die Plan suggests that the average lot size for future residential development in the TOWlllllip will be approximately 1.25 acres. Based on these assumptions, the amoam tfl land needed to accomoooate the projected number of new dwelling units can be as follows: 1,110 dwelling units x 1.25 acres/dwelling unit• 1,388 acres Thus, approximately 1,388 acres of land will be needed to accommodate is .,....., population of 9,226 people by the year 2010. While cunmt ~sidential land stands at 1885 acres, the needs for 2010 will represent a 74., increase in ladlll residential purposes. The existing land use inventory shows a total of 3,911 vacant or undeveloped land in the Township (forested plus open/banm) and of agricultural land not enrolled in P .A 116. It wouJd appear that based acreage, there is sufficient land in the Township for the projected residential Dela. Consideration must also be given, however, to the sui1ability of these vac:u1 residential land use. Suitable soils, IOpOgraphy, wetlands, street type, traffiq adjacent land uses and availability of public utilities will affect the feasi · · residential land uses. �TABLE 7 DORR TOWNSHIP POPULATION PROJECTIONS 1990 1995 2000 2010 Census Est. Est. Est. Alternative A 5,453 6,116 6,779 8,105 Alternative B 5.453 6,053 6,653 7,853 Alternative C 5,453 6,603 7,995 11,721 Alternative D SAS3 6,257 7,142 9,226 Alternative "A" assumes an average of 39 new dwelling units consttucted per year with an average of 3.4 persons per household. Alternative "B" assumes yearly growth of 120 persons (based on the 1970-1990 average annual growth projected mathematically). Alternative "C" assumes increased in-migration 10 sustain the 1970-1990 growth rate of 3.9% per year (geometric progression). Alternative "D" is the average of projections "A", "B", and "C" OTHER LAND USE NEEDS Commercial The settlement of Dorr serves as a neighborhood shopping center for residents of the Township. A neighborhood center provide.; for the sale of convenience goods (foods, drugs, and sundries) and personal services Oaundry, dry cleaning, banking, barbering, repair and professional services, etc.) for the day to day living needs of the adjacent surrounding area. Such a center usually includes one super market. The trade area for these types of commercial uses is generally within a three mile radius which would include nearly all of Dorr Township since most of ~e commercial uses arc centrally located. JNN>orrTpMpwa\89443 37 �Also, since 4,000 people are generally considered the minimum number needed to support a neighborhood shopping center, the existing population in the Township is sufficient to sustain these uses. Even so, in the 1987 Survey of Attitudes conducted by the Township, many residents indicated that they shop for routine household goods and services in the Grand Rapids Metro area to the north in Kent County. Currently, residents within this area travel to the Grand Rapids Metro area for non. convenience goods such as apparel, appliances, and hardware items. It is beyond the scope of this study to determine if stores offering such goods would be economically feasible in the Township. However, in the 1987 Survey of Attitudes, a majority of people indicated that they thought Dorr Township needed more commercial businesses, especially those that could provide household items such as appliances, fmniturc, clothes, etc. Also indicated by the survey was a high desire for more businesses and professional services such as finance, insurance, real estate, medical, dental, and legal services. • In addition, at the Public Workshop held on September 18th, 1990, citizens indicated a need for downtown commercial growth., for more retail businesses, longer business hours, and more service type businesses. As the Township continues to grow, the demand for shopping opportunities will increase. By the year 2010, the local population is estimated to be 9,226 people, or more than double the number needed to support a single neighborhood shopping center. Additional retail uses will be needed to serve these additional residents and 111Blket forces will likely determine the types of uses necessary. Currently, the Township has about 73 acres of bmd which is used for commercial or office use, and a total of 1,186 acres mned for commercial use, leaving about 1,113 acres available for commercial development. Also some available retail space exists in the Township. It would appear that there is more than sufficient land available to satisfy the future commercial land use needs for this planning period. However, the land zoned commercial should be examined to determine its feasibility for development, especially the land in Section 30 which is primarily wooded and· not served by primary roads. It should be noted that, without including the 640 acres mned for commercial use in Section 30, 546 acres are available for this commercial use, primarily along 142nd Avenue. Areas may exist which by vinue of existing or proposed adjacent land use, and potential of being served by public utilities, are better suited for future commercial use. JN.NlorrTpMpw:a\119443 38 �Industrial Dorr Township currently bas 58 acres used for industrial purposes, which represents only .3% of the total land in the Township. In the 1987 Survey of Attitudes, the respondents indicated a desire for more ligh.t industries (light assembly, warehousing, etc.) and for more research or "high tech" industries (robotics, electronics, biological, etc.). Currently, approximately 480 acres in the northeast portion of the Township are zoned for industrial use. This area of the Township is also served by the Pennsylvania Railroad and the Dorr-Moline Sewer Authority. The existing system could accommodate some manufacturing uses that have been proposed for the site, and additional industrial potential will be determined in light of a sewer study presently being conducted by the sewer authority. The existing amount of land mned industrial appears to be sufficient to meet the stated needs of Dorr citizens for the next 'five to ten years. Also, some light industrial uses have developed west of the US-131 interchange at 142nd Avenue, indicating potential for this area to accommodate further industrial uses. Toe key issues for additional industrial development in the Township will be availability of a variety of sites served by either rail or major highway access, and availability of public water and sewer service. As growth occurs in the Grand Rapids Metro area, particularly in Byron ~ownship to the north, and as sewer and water services are extended, the need for additional land mncd for industrial use will need to be reexamined. In addition, adjacent land in Byron Township to the north of Section 1 in Dorr Township is also zoned for industrial use. Efforts to coordinate industrial development between the two municipalities could benefit both communities. Just east of Dorr Township's industrial mne in neighboring Leighton Township mning will not accommodate industrial uses. Coordinating plans for industrial expansion between the two comm.unities may also prove beneficial to both municipalities. JNN)orrTpMp\lea\89443 39 �( I • I L Parks and Recreation Recreation space can be divided into two broad categories called local recreation space and county or regional recreation space. Local Recreation Spac:e is considered to be land that supports facilities designed to serve populations at the local unit of government level or school district level. Local recreation space can be further divided into the following levels: Mini Parks- Spccializ.cd facilities that serve a limited population or group such as the elderly or small children. Standards suggest .5 acres of these parks per 1000 population 1• Neighborhood Parks • Include tot lots, playgrounds, and neighborhood parks intended primarily to serve small children and the minimum recreation needs of neighborhoods. Facilities include basic play equipment. ball fields, tennis courts, and shaded rest areas. These facilities, normally 1 to 4 acres in size, are generally within easy walking distance and are often located in conjunction with elementary schools. The National Recreation and Park Association suggests that in with population concentrations that justify neighborhood level parks, a standard of 2 acres per 1000 persons be provided. areas Community Parks - Include playfields and community pub catering to children, teenagers, and adults. Emphasis is placed on active recreation, providing large sports fields, tennis and basketball courts, and swimming pools. Parking lots and picnic areas are also commonly found at this level Minimum standards suggest such facilities be between 10 to SO acres in size and be located to serve a 5 to 10 mile radius. The National Recreation and Park Association suggest a standard of 8 acres per 1,000 population be provided for community level parks. Taken collectively. the neighborhood and community park land stan~ or local park land standards is 10 acres per 1,000 population. This is the same amount recommended by the Michigan Recreation Opponunity Standards, and generally excludes lands supporting school facilities. 1 Recreation Parks and Open Space Standards and Guidelines - 1983, National Reaeation and Park Association. JNN)orfl~\19443 40 �County or Regional Recreational Space Is intended to serve the needs of families, large groups, and adults from both within and outside the county. The range of activities accommodated at this level is extremely broad; however, the primary emphasis is on more passive pursuits, many of which require sizeable tracts of land. Among the more common facilities are picnic areas, boat ramps, overnight campgrounds, large spons fields, parking lots; S)Vimming beaches, motorized and non-motoriz.ed trails, wilderness areas, and shelter buildings. Some recreation areas at this level are retained in an almost pristine natural state without facilities of any type with the possible exception of parking lots, picnic areas, and natural trails. Unique and aesthetic natural areas offer the best sites for county or area-wide level recreation. Sites arc nonn.ally in excess of 50 acres, although 100 acres or more is preferred and should be within a half hour's driving time. The National Recreation and Parks Association suggests that between 5 and 10 acres of regional or county level recreation land be provided for each 1,000 persons residing within a given county-wide service area. Table 9 compares recreational facilities in Dorr Township with the recommended standards which have been adopted by the State of Michigan. For purposes of this Plan, both Dorr Township Park and Gries park arc considered community parks, while playgrounds associated with elementary schools constitute neighborhood park space. Because of its location within Allegan County, the Allegan State Game Area is considered county or regional recreation space, as is the Hungry Horse Wilderness Campground located within the Tqwnship. Although the Hungry Horse is located on a nearly 100 acre parcel, only ten of those acres were considered to be actually improved for recreational use. Total Future Land Use Needs· In total it is estimated that the Township will need approximately 1,388 additional acres by the year 2010 to meet projected residential land use needs. If commercial and industrial land uses increase by fifty percent over the next ten years, those needs will require approximately 37 and 29 acres respectively. If deficiencies in recreational land are brought into line with recommended standards, an additional 80 acres will be needed. Table 8 summarizes the 2010 land use needs: Table 8 2010 Land Use Needs Residential Commercial Industrial Recreational 1,388 37 29 _..m 1,534 Total Acres JNN>orrTpMp'laea'89443 41 �-, , ·".' ' ' -. ') . -~ ' . Table 9 DORR TOWNSHIP RECREATION LAND 1 STANDARDS AND NEEDS 1990 • 2010 m•ow@wM•iiiiti■i■iriiiii\tlii Mini Park .5 Acre / 1000 Pop. Neighborhood Park 2 Acres / 1000 Pop. Community Park 8 Acres / 1000 Pop. 5 Acres/ 1000 Pop. County or Regional Park 1 2 I O I 3 3 4 4 5 5 2 11 9 14 12 19 17 I 16 44 28 57 41 74 58 I 45,010 27 +44,983 36 +44,974 46 +44,964 Recreational Park and Open Space Standards and Guidelines - 1983 National Recreation and Park Association 2 Includes Allegan State Game Area Acreage �Roads and Streets r '- I In order to analyze future traffic conditions, projections of traffic volumes to the year 2010 at selected locations were compared to their existing design capacity. These comparisons are shown in Table 10. The theoretical capacities, as determined by the state and local authorities, reflect the amount of traffic the street was designed to accommodate daily and still provide a relatively smooth flow of traffic. When daily traffic volumes are higher than the capacity, motorists experience more frequent delays, reduced maneuverability, congestion at intersections, lower overall speeds, and increased potential for accidents. When the volume to capacity ratio exceeds 1.00, congestion occurs. When the volume to capacity ratio exceeds 1.25 (125% of design~ street capacity), congestion can become severe and alternatives should be evaluated to increase capacity or divert traffic to another route. When volumes exceed 1.5 times their capacity. congestion can become severe and frustrated motorists may select alternate routes, increasing traffic on those streets. At that point, methods to increase the capacity of the street, provide an alternate route, or divert some traffic to a new facility should be considered. At double the capacity (a volume/capacity ratio of 2.0 or greater), traffic may be at a standstill during certain periods of the day. ·. Deterioration of a street's traffic-carrying capacity may also be measured in terms of "level of service". This term is defined as a qualitative measme of the effect of a number of factors which include speed and travel time, traffic interruptions, freedom to maneuver, safety, driving comfort and convenience, and operating costs. Levels of Service A through F, representing the best through the worst operating conditions respectively, generally vary. between peak and non-peak traffic times on the same street segment. Each of the levels of service is described as follows: Level of Service A • represents virtually complete free-flow conditions in which the speed of individual vehicles is controlled only by driver desires and prevailing conditions, not by the presence or inteiference of other vehicles. Ability to maneuver within the traffic stream is unrestricted. Level or Service B, C, and D - represents increasing levels of flow rate with correspondingly more inteiference between vehicles of the traffic stream. Averagc running speed of the stream remains relatively constant through a portion of this range, but the ability of individual drivers to freely select their speed becomes increasingly restricted as the level of service worsens. Level of Service C (1.0 to 1.25 of capacity) is normally considered an acceptable design for an area such as Dorr Township. JNN>on-TpM~ 43 �.. Level of Service E - (volumes are 1.25 to 1.50 of the "capacity") is representative of operation at or near capacity conditions. Few gaps are available, the ability to maneuver within the traffic stream is severely limited, and speeds are low. Operations at thisJevel are unstable and a minor disruption may cause rapid deterioration of flow into Level of Service F. · Level of Service F - represents forced or breakdown flow. At this level, stop-and-go l_ - patterns have already been set up in the traffic stteam, and operations at a given point may vary widely from minute to minute, as will operations in short adjacent highway segments as congestion increases through the traffic stream. Operations at this level are highly unstable and unpredictable. Table 10 shows that 142nd Avenue just east and west of the community of Dorr will experience some capacity problems by the year 2000. On 142nd Avenue east of Dorr in the year 2000 a·level of service E may be mached. This stretch may continue to decrease in level of service toward 2010. 142nd Avenue west of Dorr will ma.ch a Level of Service E by the year 2005 according to Table 10. These projections are based on a constant increase of four percent per year. I. !I These projections indicate that traffic volumes and accidents on 142nd Avenue should be monitored closely. Widening of this road may be necessary within ten to fifteen years. However, an adequate level of service can be lengthened and road widening prolonged by proper attention to access control measures such as left tum lanes, deceleration lanes, limitations on number and location of curb cuts. Improvements to the 18th Avenue/142nd Avenue intersection may have to occur earlier as intersections will become congested earlier due to more nnning movements and a greater volume of traffic. Improving this intersection will therefore help to maintain or improve the level of service along 142nd Avenue in the future. · The level of service for 18th Avenue is projected to be acceptable through the year 2010. ,. L Table 10 TRAFFIC VOLUME PROJECTIONS (24 Hour Period) 24 Hour r- L r. ~ l , '; r L .. Location 142nd east of 18th 142nd west of 18th 18th Avenue nonh of 142nd 18th Avenue sou.th of 142nd JNJ\OorrTpMp'\aQ\99443 Capacity V/CRatio 2000 2005 8,000 8,300 6,998 10,098 8,514 12,286 14,947 10,359 12,603 8,000 5,141 6,255 7,610 9,259 1.15 8,000 3,432 4,175 5,080 6,181 .77 8,000 1995 44 2010 (2010} 1.86 1.57 �I - I l Traffic accident information provided by the Allegan County Road Commission indicates that in 1989 fifty-five accidents occurred along 142nd Avenue, and through June of 1990 twenty-eight accidents had occurred along the same roadway. Likewise, while current traffic volumes on gravel roads may be well below the design capacity of the roadway, the type of traffic and condition of the roads should also be considered when determining future improvements to gravel surface roads. JNJ\Don'I'pMpwea'\89443 45 �This chapter in Dorr Town management evaluating zo · The To · Townshi When prep guide for phy into the best there is no sch particular land utilities, provisi a particular land factors, must be land. As background . explanation of th The relationship basically the act zoning is the act of Michigan the preparation community. The following "zoning". �Land Use Planning The process of · · document is prep factors relating to the it is intended that a health, safety, and order," appearance overcrowding of adequate and effi services. and within the communi Zoning Z.Oning is one of the · administration of-......__ of the comprehensive llllllll arc legislative and relating to the impJ.CllllCIII .. . . PLAN CONCEPrS The Future Land Use Township. These are intended to guide • The preserv supported by • The cen Moline. • The plannin ~ · �FUTURE LAND USE PLAN The Future Land Use Map 8, recommends a number of different land use classifications. The following descriptions of these future land use classifications explain the intended uses, the general location for each classification and a brief explanation for the proposed land use. AGRICULTURE Farming activities are the predominant uses within this classification, although single family houses and related agricultural accessory support uses including food processing would also be allowed. types The areas proposed for agricultural use are those where soil are identified as being prime for the cultivation of food and fiber crops. These farm soils are considered to be a unique natural resource for Doff Township, and farming activities are considered to be the highest and best use of this resource. In addition, soils in the areas recommended for agricultural uses tend to be among those that are least suitable for development, primarily due to increased water capacity. • Other factors used in recommending agricultural use are the existence of bona fide farming operations, proximity to non-farm uses, and enrollment of land in P.A. 116 (Farmland and Open Space Preservation). Areas in Dorr Township recommended for Agriculture designation are the northern one-third of the Township west of the U.S. 131 expressway, and the southeastern portion of the Township, primarily south of 140th Avenue and including most of the southern tier of Sections. Preservation of prime farmland has been stated as a primary concept of the Dorr Township Master Plan, yet CUITCnt zoning regulations do not actively protect these lands. Present regulations require a minim1UI1 lot size of one acre and e minimum lot width of 200 feet in the agricultural zoning district. The numbers or sizes of these lots are not further regulated except by the State of Michigan Subdivision Control Act of 1967, which limits the number of lot splits- of ten or less acres in size to four in any given ten year period. A number of regulatory measures exist which may be effective in Dorr Township. These include: The sliding scale approach, which bases the allowable number of lot splits on the acreage of the parcel which is to be subdivided; the quarter/quarter zoning district method which allows one lot split for a non-farm dwelling unit per each 40 acre parcel; the exclusive agricultural zoning district method which does not permit non-farm dwelling units; and the buffer district method which allows a transition from fann to non-farm uses when development becomes desirable. lNN>orrTpMv-\89443 48 �These methods are discussed in more detail in the implementation section of the plan. and their integration . into the zoning ordinance is dependent upon the support of the farming community. RURAL ESTATE This land use classification is designed to seive as a transition between the Low Density Residential and Agricultural land use classifications. The minimum lot size would be one acre with 200 ft. of lot width. This lot size will provide adequate area for septic system placement and will result in fewer non-farm activities next to active farms than if Low Density Residential uses were located next to Agriculture areas. Agricultural activities would be permitted within this classification. The lot size and permitted uses within this category are intended to satisfy a demand for a rural life style but on land which is not considered to be prime agricultural due to soil type or proximity to existing or planned residential areas. Rural Estate areas are not intended to be served by public · water and sewer. Areas designated for Rural Estate in Dorr Township arc found generally south of 144th Avenue, west of 20th Street. and in an area between U.S. 131 and the more densely developed eastern side of the settlement of Dorr. The areas designated have already experienced substantial development in terms of non-farm dwellings on parcels one or more acres in size, yet still retain areas of parcels with 40 or more acres in size, the minimum number of acres necessary for most viable farm operations. While the likelihood of increased residential development is high in these areas, they are not likely to be scived by public water and sewer within the planning period. I. In Sections 14 and 24, the Rural Estate designation was determined to be an effective transition between the Low Density Residential area east of Don- and between the Industrial designations recommended near the U.S. 131 Interchange. A small area of Rural Estate designation is found fronting on 12th Street in Section 13. Dctenninations for this area were based on the fact that a 40 acre parcel in this area will remain in P.A. 116 for 90 years. substantially decreasing the likeliness for more intensive uses. Also, the Rural Estate designation was determined to be an effective transition between the Low Density Residential area south of the settlement of Moline, and the Industrial areas planned around the U.S. 131 Interchange. LOW DENSITY RESIDENTIAL [ r l - Another major plan concept of the Dorr Township Master Plan is to centralize intensive land uses around the communities of Dorr and Moline, thus enhancing a sense of community. The Low Density Residential designation is intended to encompass the already existing subdivisions around Dorr and Moline as well as future development that will likely occur in platted subdivisions along with accompanying schools, libraries, JNJ\Don-TpMp\aa'l89443 49 �t·•·- . / .' . parks, and churches. The predominant use within this classification will be single family houses, although two family dwellings would be allowed along major roads. [ I \. l Lot sizes in this area would be a minimum of 15,000 square feet unless served by public water and sewer, in which case a minimum size of 12,000 square feet would be allowed. A minimum lot width of 100 feet will help ensure adequate separation for well and septic systems as well as driveways. Around the community of Dorr, the area designated as Low Density Residential is bounded approximately by 144th Avenue pn the north, 140th Avenue on the south, by 20th Street on the west, and about one-half mile east of 16th Street on the east. Near Moline, the Lo'! Density Residential area is recommended between U.S. 131 and 12th Street extending north and south one-half mile in each direction from 144th. The higher densities of residential development that will occur in this area will benefit by proximity to services such as public water and sewer, street lightin$ and improved transportation networks that are likely to be provided in areas of more intense devclopmenL The Plan recognizes that public sanitary sewer service may someday be provided within the community of Dorr and the existing sewer in the Moline area may also be expanded. In both locations, the Low Density Residential acts as a transition from the more intense ,Medium Density Residential and commercial or office·uses found nearer the community centers, to the areas planned for Rural Estate. Where residential uses do occur adjacent to commercial or office uses, provisions for adequate buffering, such as greenbelts, berms, or walls, should be required. r 1.· I. r \ ' I l MEDIUM DENSITY RESIDENTIAL This classification is designed to accommodate multi-family dwelling units, mobile home parks, offices and institutional uses such as hospitals, schools and funeral homes, as well as single and two family dwellings. Medium Density Residential areas should be located on paved streets to facilitate access by fire and police service. The types of dwelling units envisioned in this category can serve as a transition zone between non-residential uses and low density residential areas. Because public sewer is necessary to assure long range public health, MDR areas should not be zoned or developed until sewer service and roadways can be provided to serve this type of use. In general, areas for which Medium Density Residential is recommended are found south of the 142nd Avenue commercial conidor between Radstock and 14th Street and in other locations within one-half mile of downtown Dorr, including an area west of 18th Street and south of 142nd Avenue where existing multi-family dwellings are located. Also, areas surrounding the two existing mobile home parks in the Township, one south of 143rd Avenue and the other in Section 30 in the southwest portion of the Township, have been designated as Medium Density Residential. In Section 30, adequate space for park expansion has been designated. JNN>orr'fpMplaa'\119443 so �Medium Density Residential areas that are adjacent to areas planned for commercial use along 142nd Avenue are envisioned as developing into office uses or multi-family. Office would supply support services to both commercial uses and industrial uses that may flourish near the U.S. 131 interchange while multi-family would provide housing opportunities nearby for industrial workers. In Section 16 along '18th Street, an area is planned for MDR as it is across from existing commercial uses, and also is located along a major north-south arterial. A small parcel on 142nd Avenue in Section 22 across from the cemetery has been designed for MDR. The Plan recognizes the limited development potential of this site but recommends MOR as it would accommodate a duplex or a small office building. In Section 21, the MDR designation recognizes the multi-family development that has occurred. Further multi-family development in the Township should only be permitted as small scale projects (four to eight unit buildings) on private septic systems until public sewer_ become a reality. Multi-family developments without public sewer could not exceed a density of 4.35 units per acre. If public sewer or a community system is provided the density could be increased to ten ( 10) units per acre. • COMMERCIAL/OFFICE This classification includes both retail/service uses as well . as office uses. The communities of Dorr and Moline will continue to provide shopping opponunities and services for most Township residents. In addition, because of the nature of 142nd Avenue and the presence of U.S. 131, the .Township will increasingly provide the commercial needs of highway and transient traffic. Commercial areas are designated both north and south of 142nd Avenue extending west from 20th Street nearly continuously to the U.S. 131 interchange, excepting some areas recommended for either public or residential use. Due to heavy truck traffic using 142nd Avenue as a route to the City of Holland, fairly high vehicle speeds. the noise generated by traffic, and the location of the freeway interchange, residential development was not considered as a viable alternative for this section of 142nd Avenue. Also, 142nd Avenue has an already established commercial character with various food establishments, a grocery store, and other retail and service establishments cast of Dorr. Uses likely to develop or increase here include those of a neighborhood/convenience shopping nature, including food stores, pharmacies, and personal services such as dry cleaning and shoe repair. These uses usually attract patrons within a 5-8 minute driving time. In addition,-142nd Avenue may develop shopping opponunitics that will afford boch residents of Dorr Township and passing motorists those retail items and services used less frequently, such as stores offering household items and appliances, movie theatms, JNN>arrTpMfNea'89443 l L Sl �repair garages, hardware stores, and specialty shops. These types of uses generally attract patrons within a 15-20 minute driving time. f. r. I l. A small area on the south side of 142nd Avenue east of 18th Avenue in downtown DoIT has been designated for office use. Four houses in good condition stand on this site, and it is envisioned that over time these homes will conven to a non-residential use, preferably office, since the limited setback. lack of on-site parking, and proximity to other residential uses would restrict the use of this site for commercial purpose. It is also envisioned that, if converted to offices, these structures would retain theh present architectural character, thus enhancing the village atmosphere of downtown Dorr. Commercial uses arc also recommended in the vicinity of the U.S. 131 expressway interchange in anticipation of development generally refeITCd to as highway commercial, including such uses as auto service stations, fast food restaurants, and overnight lodging. A commercial area is also recommended for the east side of 18th Street nonh from 142nd Avenue to 143rd Avenue. This designation recognizes current commercial zoning in this area, some established commercial uses, and the fact that 18th Street is a major northsouth artery. In Moline, commercial uses arc recommended adjacent to the Pennsylvania Railroad tracks encompassing approximately four blocks in the area considered downtown Moline. Commercial or service uses already established in Moline include a bank, U.S. Post Office, and a grain elevator. Zoning in this area currently allows a wide range of commercial uses including machine shops, storage buildings and yards, and some manufacturing, j L j • Prior to this Master Planning process, all of Section 30 was zoned for commercial use. There are no commercial uses in this Section however and the Plan does not envision this as a viable commercial area due to the absence of good paved roads in the area, the distance from 142nd and 18th Avenues and the distance from the planned and existing population centers in the Township. This Section is now planned primarily for Rural Estate, excepting the area around the mobile home park designated as Medium Density Residential. Toe Rural Estate designation which requires a one acre lot size will help preserve the existing wooded nature of this area and will not result in population inappropriate to be served by the unpaved roads around this Section. In each case of commercial development, consideration should be given to adjacent uses particularly near residential development where sufficient landscaping. setbacks, buffers and shielded lighting should be required. Along 142nd Avenue, commercial development will require specific access control measures such as service roads, shared drives, access drives, deceleration lanes, turning lanes, and additional traffic control measures to help ensure traffic and pedestrian safety. JNJ\DorrTpMp'wea\89443 L 52 �INDUSTRIAL This classification is intended to accommodate uses such as manufacturing and processing, warehouses, and may allow as special uses such operations as refining, distilling, rendering, and junk or salvage yards. Uses allowed will be evaluated on the basis of compatibility with adjacent land uses and the potential for danger or offense to nearby residents. While industrial uses may be allowed where served by private sewage disposal systems and wells as approved by the Allegan County Health Department, the Plan recommends that the industrial development occur in those areas where utilities exist or arc planned for, with access to major arterials and railways. In order to promote orderly and efficient industrial areas, industrial parks should be encouraged. , In Dorr Township, industrial uses arc recommended for the area around the U.S. 131 interchange, and for the area north of Moline, between U.S. 131 and 12th Street (North Division). Industrial development near the interchange will follow a pattern established by other communities to the north of Dorr Township, which recognize the excellent· access afforded by the expressway to major metropolitan centers such as Grand Rapids and Kalamamo. In addition, Dorr Township offers excellent access to the Oty of Holland via 142nd Avenue. Locating industrial uses near the intersection of these two roads also helps confine trucks to major arteries that arc consttucted to withstand heavier types of traffic. Property near the interchange that fronts Oli 142nd Avenue is currently zoned to allow uses such as retailing and wholesaling of goods, warehousing, trucking facilities, and limited fabrication of goods. The area north of Moline is cmrcntly the site of several industrial uses,·and an industrial park is proposed for the area. The Pennsylvania Railroad serves this area, and the Moline-Dorr sewer system has the ability to handle additional capacity that will be generated by the proposed park. The entire area designated for industrial uses is also. zoned for industry. The intensity of industrial development in the Township will be dependent upon the extension of both water and sewer services. Of primary concern should be adequate site development standards plus requirements for sufficient buffering between industrial uses and other uses. PUBLIC/SEMI - PUBLIC • This category includes those areas and facilities such as schools, govcmmcnt building, parks and golf courses which arc available for use by the general public. Semi-public uses arc those used by a limited number of people with specific interests which arc generally non-profit in nature such as churches, non-public schools~ private golf courses· and medical or institutional facilities. The Plan recognizes that it is necessary to provide for the establishment of certain non-residential land uses within residential amlS subject to the implementation of measures which are designed to insure compatibility. Such nonJNN>on-TpMp>..'89443 . S3 �L..- . ' residential uses commonly include religious and educational institutions, recreational uses such as parks, golf courses and play fields, public utility facilities and home occupations. Traffic generation, noise, lighting and trespassing should be carefully controlled in order to mitigate the negative impacts on residential uses. The Future Land Use Map illusttatcs the major public/semi-public uses in the Township. Expansion or location of these uses should depend upon compatibility with adjacent land uses and the extent to which neighborhood character will be maintained. STREETS The Plan recommends the construction of one future street being the extension of 16th Avenue between 142nd Avenue and 144th Avenue. This proposed two lane paved roadway would provide access to the planned low density residential uses in Sections 14 and .15. By illustrating this road on the Future Land U:se Map the Planning Commission is recommending that !lllY future development in this area incorporate this road into the project. JNl\DorrTpMp'wca\89443 S4 �CHAPTER 8 IMPLEMENTATION In order for the Master Plan to serve as an effective guide to the continued develOPI•• of Dorr Township it must be implemented. Primary responsibility for implementing die Plan rests with the Dorr Township Bori, the Planning Commission, and the Township staff. This is done through a number of methods. These include ordinances, ~ and administrative procedures which are described in this chapter. It is important to note that the Master Plan itself has no legal authority to re...,._ development in order to implement the recommendations of the Plan. 'l'bil implementation must come from the decisions of the Township Board and P1anmna Commission to provide needed public improvements and to administer and estab.\illa regulatory measures relative to the use of the land. The private sector, including individual home and land owners, is also involved fulfilling the recommendations of the Master Plan by the actual physical devel~ land uses and through the remning of land. The authority for this, however, comes the Township. Cooperation between the public and private sectors is therefore ~ in successful implementation of the Master Plan. ZONING Zoning represents a legal means for the Township to regulate private ptoperty to ac,.-.-. orderly land use relationships. It is the process most commonly used to. impllellllllL community Master Plans. The mning process consists of an official mning mning ordinance texL The official mning map divides the community into different mnes or districts which cenain uses are permitted and others are noL The mning ordinance text uses which are permitted and establishes regulations to control densities, height, setbacks, lot sizes, and accessory uses. The zoning ordinance also sets forth procedures for special approval regulations controls. These measures permit the Township to control the quality as well as of development Subsequent to the adoption of this Plan, the Township Planning CollDDllilliDI Township Board should review and make any necessary revisions to die regulations to ensure that the recommendations of the Plan as outlined in this instituted. JNN>on'l'pMiela'l9443 �The Plan recommends the following specific changes to the Township Z.Oning Ordinance: 1. Develop a separate zoning district for mobile home parks. This could be done by eliminating the B-3 zoning district as a single family zone and incorporating the existing B-3 regulations in the B-2 or A, Residential districts. The B-3 zone could then be used as a mobile home· park zone. 2. Amend the E, Commercial regulations so that those uses which are truly industrial in nature are deleted. Consideration should also be given to deletion of this chapter and incorporating the commercial uses into the C and D zoning chapters with some uses allowed only as special uses. This may require changes to the Zoning Map. 3. Amend the Agricultural zoning regulations so that prime farmland can be preserved. Several zoning methods to preserve prime farmland were briefly discussed in the previous chapter. The Plan recommends that a committee be formed (perhaps consisting of Township Board members and Planning Commissioners) to work with the farming community to develop farmland preservation zoning regulations. Such regulations will only be successful if they are supported by farmers. 4. Amend the Ordinance to address the problem of flag lots particularly in the Agricultural zone. 5. Adopt access control mcas\ll'CS to regulate the commercial development recommended for 142nd Avenue. Such measures should address the number, size and spacing of driveways, service drives or frontage roads, building setbacks, deceleration lanes, and driveway alignment. The Commission should work with the Allegan County Road Commission to enlist their cooperation in enforcing such measures. 6. Develop specific landscaping regulations for buffering between uses, and improving the appearance of buildings and parking lots. 7. Develop specific sign regulations for the size , location, and number of signs permitted for each zoning district. 8. Develop zoning ordinance provisions to regulate site condominiums. JNN>orrTpMP'-'89443 S6 �Other Zonine; Considerations • Review the Zoning Ordinance and discuss the need to retain the provision allowing residential uses to be permitted in commercial and industrial zones with a special use permit. • Review the industrial and commercial zoning regulations for the uses permitted and to determine whether certain uses should only be permitted as special uses. • The Planning Commission should sponsor amendments to the Zoning Map to amend certain areas of the Map in accordance with the Future Land Use Plan. Specifically. the commercially zone land in Section 30 and the commercially zoned land on 144th west ofU.S.-131. • Review the entire Ordinance to determine the need for additional definitions and regulations in light of the changes recommended by the Plan. PREPARE AND ADOPT CAPITAL IMPROVEMENTS PROGRAM • Capital Improvements Programming is the first step in a comprehensive management system designed to regulate priorities and programs to community goals and objectives. It is a means of planning ahead for the funding and implementation of major construction and land acquisition activities. The typical CIP is six years in length and updated yearly. The first in each CIP contains the capital improvement budget. The program generally includes a survey of the long-range needs of the entire governmental unit covering major planned projects along with their expected cost and priority. The Township Board then analyzes the projects, financing options. and the interrelationship between projects. Finally, a project schedule is developed. Priority projects are included in the Capital Improvements Program. Low priority projects may be retained in a Capital Improvements Schedule which may cover as long as 20 years. The CIP is useful to the Township. private utilities, citizens, and investors, since it allows coordination in activities and provides the general public with a view of future expectations. SEWER AND WATER STUDY One of the major premises of this Plan is that the community of Dorr will be served by public sanitary sewer and water within the planning period. Steps need to be taken now to provide for this. The Plan recommends that study be conducted within the next two to four years to determine the feasibility of public utilities in the DOIT area. Funding for this study should be pursued through the State of Michigan Rural Grant Program administered by the Department of Commerce. This program requires a ten percent local JNJ\DorrTpMp\lca\89443 S1 �-• .. mat.ch and should be applied for in 1991. This Plan will need to be submitted with the grant application as evidence that there is community suppon for this project and that the project is pan of an overall plan to accomplish a vision of the community. RECREATION PLAN The Plan recommends that the Township prepare a recreation plan in order to be eligible for state recreation funding programs such as the Land and Water Conservation Fund. Michigan Department of Natural Resources Trust Fund. and Quality of Life Bond. Assistance under these programs is available for planning, acquiring; and developing a wide range of outdoor recreation areas and facilities. The programs are administered by the Michigan Department of Natural Resources and are financed by funds appropriated by the Federal Government and State Legislature. Under the•LWCF program, grants of up to 50% of the cost of a project are available; under the MNRTF Program, 100% funding may be obtained; and the Quality of Life Bond program will fund 75% of a project. Application for grants under these programs must first be submitted by April 1st of each year but a community must have an approved recreation plan on file with the DNR in order to apply for a grant. - PLANNING EDUCATION Planning Commissions should attend planning seminars to keep themselves informed of planning issues and learn how to better carry out their duties and responsibilities as Planning Commissioners. These seminars are regularly sponsored by the Michigan Society of Planning Officials (MSPO) and the Michigan Township Association (MTA) and are a valuable resource for Planning Commissions. There are also several planning • publications which are a useful information tool for Planning Commissioners. The main publications are Plannine and Zonine News and Michiean Planner Maeazine. PUBLIC INFORMATION It is important that the proposals of this Plan be discussed and understood by the citizens of Dorr Township. Acceptance of this Plan by the public is essential to its successful implementation. Steps should be taken to make Township residents aware of this Plan and the continuing activities of the Planning Commission. This can be acc~plished through newspaper reports of Planning Commission activity. Contact with local civic and service organi7.ations is another method which can be used to promote the Township's planning activities and objectives. JNN>orrTpMpwa'\89443 S8 �REVISIONS TO THE MASTER PLAN The Master Plan should be updated periodically (minor review every one to two years. major review every five to ten years) in order to be responsive to new growth trends and current Township attitudes. As growth occurs over the years, the Master Plan goals, land use information, population projections, and other pertinent data should be reviewed and revised as necessary so the Plan can continue to serve as a valid guide to the growth of the Township . • lNJ\DorrTpMpwa'\89443 59 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Wyckoff Planning and Zoning Collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Planning & Zoning Center (Lansing, Mich.) (Organization) Wyckoff, Mark A. Description An account of the resource Municipal master plans and zoning ordinances from across the state of Michigan, spanning from the 1960s to the early 2020s. The bulk of the collection was compiled by urban planner Mark Wyckoff over the course of his career as the founder and principal planner of the Planning and Zoning Center in Lansing, Michigan. Some additions have been made to the collection by municipalities since it was transferred to Grand Valley State University. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Michigan Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1960/2023 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/870">Planning and Zoning Center Collection (RHC-240)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/NoC-US/1.0/">No Copyright - United States</a> Subject The topic of the resource Michigan Comprehensive plan publications Master plan reports Zoning--Michigan Zoning--Maps Maps Land use--planning Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-240 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Language A language of the resource eng Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Dorr-Twp_Master-Plan_1991 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dorr Township Planning Commission, Dorr Township, Allegan County, Michigan Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1991-05-21 Title A name given to the resource Dorr Township Master Plan Description An account of the resource The Dorr Township Master Plan was prepared by the Dorr Township Planning Commission with the assistance of WW Engineering & Science, Inc. and was adopted on May 21, 1991. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource WW Engineering & Science, Inc. (consultant) Subject The topic of the resource Master plan reports Dorr Township (Mich.) Allegan County (Mich.) Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/870">Planning and Zoning Center Collection (RHC-240)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/NoC-US/1.0/">No Copyright - United States</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6c0aae5e72ced6d0362e0ffcfcc74d95.mp4 5d378ae9197d5c7bfc354528d89c0cbb https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/024ede69d6834100e00436a68a8d6b8b.pdf 2c827b36bd6e93c0a9b031a65acefe0e PDF Text Text ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW RICHARD DORSEY Born: 1946 in Gary, Indiana Resides: Belmont, Michigan Interviewed by: James Smither PhD, GVSU Veterans History Project, Transcribed by: Joan Raymer, March 13, 2012 Interviewer: To begin with Mr. Dorsey, can you tell us where and when you were born? I was born in 1946 in Gary, Indiana. Interviewer: What did your family do for a living in those days? My father and mother were both teachers in, especially in the music area. Interviewer: Did you grow up in Gary or did you move somewhere else? Yes I did, I grew up in Gary and after I was drafted from that location. Interviewer: Did you go to private schools, or public ones? Public schools Interviewer: What was—what kind of a place was Gary, Indiana in the late fifties and early sixties? It was a thriving small metropolis, and of course, the center of its industry was the steel industry. Things were booming then, at that time, and Gary was a very cultural, active community and certainly vibrant with employment, and people made money, especially those that weren’t skilled. 1:21 Interviewer: it was also a place; at least by the late sixties it had seen its share of racial problems and other issues. Was there much of that going on before you left, or were you aware of much of that? 1 �There was a racial divide, but I did not get exposed to that to any extent. Interviewer: The high school that you went to, was that mostly while kids? Yes it was Interviewer: When did you receive your draft notice? Actually, after I left high school I went and played around with college a little bit, but it just wasn’t the right time for me, and I actually tried to join the Air Force, and I had a bad knee so I couldn’t. 2:08 Six months later, when I was about twenty years old, the draft sought me out and said my knee was fine. I was drafted at that time, in 1968. Interviewer: Had you been working then and doing other things? Yes, at the time, as a matter of fact, I was a lifeguard for the YMCA, as I recall. Interviewer: What did you know about the Vietnam War before you were drafted? I was somewhat naïve about the Vietnam Was, I knew it was going on, the spin on it from the circles I ran in, was that it was good, that it was taking care of communist aggression, so it was all the right twist at that time, again in the circles that I ran in. 3:01 Interviewer: For the most part, at least in 1966 and 1967, a lot of the news coverage was still fairly positive, and we were winning. Yes, exactly, and the problem was, at the time that I was drafted, the war was really escalating, but of course, the spin on it was that we were doing great things and having wins of battles and such as that. Interviewer: Did you have relatives who had been in the service, or did you not know much about that kind of thing? My father was in the Navy, my brother was in the Air Force, and another brother was in the Army. 2 �Interviewer: So, on some level going into the service was a fairly normal thing to do? The normal thing to do given the circles I ran in. It was the normal thing to do once the country called you, you responded and so forth. As far as the political climate, especially around Vietnam, I was oblivious to anything. Interviewer: Where did they send you then for basic training? Fort Bliss, Texas, and I initially went down to Kentucky, but they didn’t have enough room. 4:06 As I said, the war was escalating, they were trying to draft a lot more people, so they had to send me to Fort Bliss, Texas for my basic training. Interviewer: Where in Texas is Fort Bliss? Close to the Mexican border, about in the central part of the state. Interviewer: Near El Paso? Yes, exactly Interviewer: That’s kind of off on one end there. That’s my naivety; I thought it was in the central part of the state. Interviewer: How would you describe the facility when you got there? Very nice, very clean, and it was a good experience other than the bad connotations of basic training, it was a very clean facility. Interviewer: Did the facility have new buildings and things like that? Relatively new, I would say relatively new. Interviewer: So, you weren’t just stuck in a WWII vintage barracks or something like that? Exactly 5:05 3 �Interviewer: Now, What kind of a reception did you get when you arrived down at Fort Bliss? Oh, they were so glad to see me. It was the typical scenario where the drill sergeant, as soon as you get off the bus he starts barking at you and the whole shot. It’s all designed to break your previous mental position and be receptive to what they had in store for you. I can look back and see that now. Interviewer: How well, or quickly, did you adjust to that? Well, it was a blur, to be honest with you, at the very start. I did not expect to be drafted in the first place because I had just gotten rejected by the Air Force, but it was a bit of a blur and of course, literally, you were run through lines to get shots and other things, almost like a bunch of cattle, and very impersonal. 6:07 Interviewer: But, as far as you can tell you just went along with it? Just went along and adjusted to it, and I finally got my arms around it a little bit. Interviewer: Aside from just learning the discipline and following orders, what else did basic consist of when you were in it? What else did basic consist of? Interviewer: Yeah Discipline, again breaking—I personally didn’t have a lot of baggage to bring in, but some did, and the program that they had was very adept at getting everybody in the same mold at the most part. Where they were receptive to the training, horrible schedules, we would get to bed late at night, early in the morning, the drill sergeants were ridiculous in what they expected, and what they inspected. 7:07 The training was very demanding, and I just remember being constantly tired all the time. We would have to go places in 4 �cattle trucks, literally standing up, rather than nice buses and all that. They had a lot to do in a little bit of time. They had to get us ready for Vietnam is what it was, and so, they put you through the mill. Interviewer: Then did you get weapons training along with that? Yes, some basic weapons training there, but it became more advanced in my advanced infantry training from there at my next assignment. Interviewer: Now, from the beginning were you using M16s and modern weapons, or were you using older ones? Primarily the M14s at that stage Interviewer: Did they have you do a lot of physical training, a lot of marching and hiking? 8:05 Marching, hiking, just a lot of physical conditioning, and all for a purpose, and that was very demanding as well. I remember that, now that you bring it up. Interviewer: Were you in reasonably good shape when you started, or did you have to get in shape? Actually I was, you know, I was a lifeguard at the YMCA, and that put me in incredible shape because I had time between classes where I didn’t have to do a lot, so I swam a lot. That exercise really prepared me much more than I realized, for that time, it really did. Interviewer: Now, What kind of people were you training along side? How old were they, and where were they from? Close to my age, maybe a year younger, maybe a year older, and from the Gary area, from the Chicago area, the northwest Indiana area, and that sort of thing, and quite a bit from Chicago. 9:01 5 �Interviewer: So, it was a specific group taken out of particular region and brought down, at least to train together? Correct, that is correct Interviewer: How long did the basic training last? Eight weeks Interviewer: Then you moved on to advanced training after that, and did you stay at Fort Bliss or did you go somewhere else? Someplace else, and I was assigned to the infantry, and I guess that was, they called it, my MOS if I recall right. So, I went to Fort Polk, Louisiana for advanced infantry training. Interviewer: Was Fort Polk any different from Fort Bliss? It was an older facility, a much older barracks, and it was, I’m sure, designed to replicate what we would be facing in Vietnam. So, there were a lot of swampy conditions, humid conditions, and the topography was very similar to what we encountered ultimately in Vietnam. Interviewer: Describe a little bit the actual training program. 10:01 Well, of course, it continued to be intensive, but of course as I recall, and I’m sure there’s a lot that I have forgotten about, but certainly the advanced weapons mechanics retained the M14, and all that surrounds that, but the machine gun, I got intensive training on that, and also, the M16, and the 45 caliber pistol, so we got much more intensive training on those things. On tactics, on evading the enemy if we were separated from our group in Vietnam and how you did that. Survival training, and that sort of thing, as I recall. Very 6 �interesting scenarios, taking a chicken and taking it from catching it all the way to cooking it and eating it, which wasn’t real appetizing. 11:08 Interviewer: Now, were your instructors, at that point, people who had been to Vietnam? Yes, that’s right Interviewer: How much did they tell you, or what kinds of things did they tell you to expect? They didn’t say a whole lot, other than the fact that you knew that you were tentatively facing a serious situation, and they meant business is what it amounted to. Interviewer: AIT, was that another eight weeks, or was it longer than that? It was another eight weeks, that is correct. Interviewer: What happened when you finished that? Then I got a brief respite, and then I was shipped over to Vietnam, which might have been in June, and I don’t know if the time is right, but if my math is right that would have put me just past the eight weeks, a little time to say goodbye to the family, and then shipping out. 12:10 Interviewer: About June of 1968, or pretty close to that Right Interviewer: How did they get you physically to Vietnam? I had to report to Chicago, where they flew me to Washington, the state of Washington, and there I received my orders, how I was to be flown out, and what group I was to be with. I cannot recall, but it was certainly a safe area—we flew to Japan for refueling, and 7 �then on to Vietnam, and it certainly was a safe area that I came into, and I can’t recall the name of the city. Interviewer: You don’t know whether you went to—some people went to the Saigon area, some flew to Da Nang; some flew to Cam Ranh Bay. Cam Ranh Bay sounds very familiar to me. 13:06 Interviewer: That, actually, might have been the safest option. Right Interviewer: Did they fly you in a commercial jet or a military one? Commercial, yes Interviewer: Was it all soldiers on that plane or were there civilians? Yes, as a matter of fact, it was all soldiers, and very few amenities. Interviewer: What was your first impression of Vietnam when you got off the plane? First impression of Vietnam—of course, landing in a safe area and the area we landed in was not a jungle area, it was much more open, and at that point again, it was like a blur because as soon as you landed you were shuffled through a number of stations, and then finally carted out by helicopter to where you were to be assigned, so it was a quick blur as well as I can remember. 14:05 Interviewer: Do you remember it being hot? Very hot Interviewer: Was there any kind of distinctive smell in the place where you got off? Interesting—not there, not that I recall. There were other smells later on, in the air, that I’ll never forget, but not there. 8 �Interviewer: Kind of away fro the agricultural zones and some of the others that got interesting. So basically, they’re whisking you off in other directions, basically follow us through that process, you get off the plane, they take you off the runway, and do you stay in that area for a while to get assigned? Just for a couple of days--until they could process your specific orders, and then be assigned to a specific unit. If I recall right, it was relatively quick—a relatively short time in Cam Ranh Bay before I was put on a larger helicopter and up to the DMZ, is where I was assigned initially. 15:14 Interviewer: What unit were you assigned to? The 1st Air Cavalry, the 2nd of the 7th, it’s called the Garryowen division, and unfortunately after George Custer who lost everything in his battle, but that’s what it was. Interviewer: So, 7th Cavalry, 1st Regiment, 7th Calvary Division Right Interviewer: The 1st Cavalry had— It was 2nd Cav—no, 1st, no Interviewer: 2nd Brigade—there are a lot of different numbers they juggled around because they took battalions from different regiments and brigade them together within the division. I think you probably know it better than I do. [Maybe, but I screwed up in the interview-2nd Battalion, 7th Regiment, 1st Cavalry Division] Interviewer: But initially you’re with the 7th Cavalry, and that sticks with you at that point. Discharge papers list you, at some point, with the 8th Cavalry. 9 �It wasn’t the 8th Cavalry, it must have been the 8th Brigade or even some other distinctive group, but it was always 2nd of the 7th, yes. 16:16 Interviewer: You were with them—what condition was the unit in, as far as you tell, when you joined it? Had they taken a lot of casualties or were they pretty close to full strength? When I joined it seemed relatively docile in the sense that they weren’t anxious about enemy fire upon them, or being attacked, or whatever. It was just the unknown at the time—what was I walking into? And sensing that it wasn’t a big deal, what I walked into. Interviewer: You were joining the unit basically as an individual, so the unit was already there and you were going to join them in the field. Were there a lot of them going at the same time? There were two of us, as I recall, going to join that unit, on that day that were assigned to that particular group. 17:13 Interviewer: So, you’re assigned to a particular platoon and squad, so you get introduced to a certain group of men at that point? It turned out, as I understand, we were replacing people that were being sent back home, so the two of actually, almost got into the same squad, of the bigger unit. That was very interesting. Interviewer: What impression did you have of the men in the unit? You said they didn’t seem to be too concerned about what was going on. 10 �Well, for the most part, somewhat impersonal, like, “Ok, here’s some new green troops coming in, and I haven’t got time for you right now”, and that sort of thing. Not that they were bad, they just didn’t go out of their way to welcome you. 18:01 Interviewer: Physically what were the conditions like? How would you describe the area? The area was quite open; not mountains, but hills, small hills, but a lot of flat land, and somewhat dry, and, of course, warm. Interviewer: What were your living conditions? Were you sleeping out in the open? Living conditions—that was my biggest shock, initially, living conditions, because when you first got supplied to get to your assignment, you were given some basic things, one of which was an air mattress, and an air mattress is like gold, and it just wasn’t seen by many people. I also had a poncho that served as half of a tent that I built with another person, and we slept in that underneath those ponchos, that served as a tent, wherever we were. 19:20 We were not in an area that had buildings, we were out in the field. Interviewer: Were you dug in? Did you have foxholes or bunkers or things like that? Where we were, we had foxholes, not all the time, and sometimes we were so transient we didn’t have time to dig them, and the necessity for them was very minimal because by and large, unless we stayed in an area for several days, then we would dig foxholes, but by and large we weren’t attacked by anybody up there. They had already seen a lot of trouble and the area had been secured, but you ran into booby traps and a few snipers, probably kids, and that was it. 20:07 Interviewer: What were the daily activities up there while you were by the DMZ? 11 �The daily activities, as strange as it sounds, something they didn’t teach you in training in basic or advanced infantry training, is that you go to the bathroom out in the field. that sounds rather silly, but the first time I thought, “What do I do?” So I went outside the perimeter and did my little thing, and I saw a helicopter going over my head and thought, “I wish they would go away”. Then very quickly you adjusted and became part of the landscape and all of your functions then meshed with the environment that you were in, at least for me. Interviewer: Were you not supposed to go outside the perimeter? Well, you were supposed to do it at restricted times, and in certain areas, because you would typically have an outpost beyond the perimeter, so you could stay between the outpost and the perimeter as long as long as there wasn’t any imminent danger. 21:18 Interviewer: But they hadn’t created any other kind of facilities for you? No, you took your shovel and you dug a trench and you straddled it, and that was it. I hope that was not too graphic. Interviewer: In some of the places there was sort of, in the fortified camps and things like that, there were other sorts of systems, latrines or things like that. They did not have outhouses and it was very rustic. Interviewer: Did you do a lot of patrolling or did you just stay in one place? We did patrolling, as squads on a very limited basis, but we did patrolling, and ran into very little resistance in that area. Interviewer: What impression did you have of the leadership of the unit, from the sergeants or lieutenants and things like that? 22:12 12 �The leadership—you were very detached from the lieutenants, and the captain, at least at my level you were, and by and large people were somewhat impersonal. Although, they grew more personal and warm to you the longer you stuck around and became one of the group that was watching each other’s back, so to speak. Interviewer: About how long did that process take, do you think? Probably about a month, for me anyhow Interviewer: So, you have that adjustment process and you’re still up in the DMZ area. About how long did you stay in that sector? About four months Interviewer: Did the circumstances stay pretty much the same the whole time? Absolutely, other than—probably the biggest challenge was the monsoons coming in and dealing with that. 23:12 That was harder—although, there were incidents with booby traps where men were killed with them, but they were few and far between. Interviewer: Were the booby traps mainly in the form of mines? Yes, mines in the ground or the type that would jump up and explode up in the air, just above head height and that sort of thing. Interviewer: Now eventually you get news that you’re moving out and going somewhere else? Yes Interviewer: Where do you go next? They put us in helicopters and took us down near Saigon; I think it was Da Nang [Da Nang is still in the north, but they may have flown through there on the way down] as a matter of fact. Then we regrouped there and very quickly, we weren’t there very long, 13 �quickly flew us in mass, with a number of Huey helicopters, out to what was called virgin territory. Virgin in where no GI’s had ever been, out west of Saigon, on the Cambodian boarder. 24:12 Interviewer: Was there a landing zone cleared for you or was it open country? It wasn’t real open, the landing zone had not been cleared, and we established the landing zone and created it from day one. Interviewer: Was this sort of a new experience for you, to fly into enemy territory like that, or had you been going places in helicopters before that? To a small degree, you had a little bit of that experience up north, but when you flew into the unit that was out in the field, it was pretty well secured. When we flew in down south it was like—your eyes opened up and thinking, “What am I walking into?” Fortunately, it was not what they call a hot LZ situation where you fly into all sort of enemy resistance. 25:06 It was, for whatever reason, we received no resistance. Interviewer: In this case they didn’t quite know you were coming, or if they did they weren’t opposing you. Apparently, right Interviewer: Basically you get there, now, was this a whole battalion going together, or company or squad? That was primarily a company that went into that particular area. Interviewer: Once you landed what did you do? Then it was a matter of securing the area, making sure before anything was done we got some outposts out to the outside of the perimeter we were trying to establish, by virtue of digging foxholes and creating an area we would operate patrols out of in order to see if 14 �the area was clear, or if we were going to face resistance. 26:07 I also ultimately found out we were close to the Ho Chi Minh Trail, and there was a design to start to see or intercept some of the traffic coming down through that trail. When we landed we immediately got some people out—once we realized we weren’t getting resistance, we had a few people stationed in strategic areas and then proceeded to dig the foxholes and have the little hootches made out of ponchos and all that, in order to start to create a stable environment out of which to operate. Interviewer: Now, did you have things like concertina wire or mines or things like that as well? We didn’t have concertina wire, but we did, after we established a little more stability within the camp, we almost at the same time were putting out claymore mines and things like that as preventive measures. 27:06 Interviewer: How long did it take for you to start to attract the enemy's attention? Very quickly, as a matter of fact it turned out, and it was our squad that I was assigned to, that had the first confrontation. Interviewer: What happened at that point? When they finally started to send out patrols, after things were established, our group was the first one assigned to a patrol headed by a very green Lieutenant. Again, I didn’t find out until later—he took us out and he got lost, and we went further than we were supposed to go. Consequently, when he finally realized where we were, and where we had to go to get back to the landing zone, as we started to walk back we walked right into a major regiment of North Vietnamese, not just Vietcong, that was pretty well 15 �entrenched. 28:17 I’m sure they were surprised because I don’t think they expected us to be quite out where we were. Interviewer: So, basically once you bump into them, so do you try to get away from them or what? We were absolutely pinned down flat with fire, and I would say as close, frankly, to this blue wall. Very thick jungle was this topography, and I remember not being able to see—what was it 20-25 feet? I remember not being able to see anything, but the fire was so intense and so low, you couldn’t even be in a sitting position, we had to be prone on the ground. 29:08 With that being our first real conflict, nobody knew what to do, frankly of our unit. Unfortunately the Lieutenant didn’t either, he was more scared than we were, and he was in the back of the whole patrol, so we stuck initially. Then all of a sudden—it’s very interesting that even with the lack of direction by this Lieutenant, all of a sudden everybody started to regroup within themselves and then we started to act as a unit, and putting into force all the training we had. It was more mechanical than anything, so we started strategically plant machine gunners and spread out as much as possible even though most of it was crawling, to protect ourselves, I do remember that. 30:02 Interviewer: How did that situation resolve its self then? I remember that when we first ran into them our point man—it’s interesting, our point man was a guy that I came into the country with. He got the point job and I got the grenadier job and those are the two most hated jobs. The grenadier job because of all the weight of all the bigger ammunition, and the point man, naturally, because you put yourself in danger. He was shot immediately in the chest and I remember being on the 16 �left flank, totally pinned down and not knowing what was going on. At one point I remember a projectile coming up over the canopy and I looked at it rather strangely and I thought, “What was that?” All of a sudden it hit me-- it was an enemy grenade, and it actually rolled towards me. Well, the enemy had cut down trees to build the bunkers, and right next to me was a stump maybe three feet high. 31:07 Instinctively, I rolled over behind the stump, it rolled to the other side and blew up, and of course nothing happened to me other than I knew I was scared to death. At that time we finally realized that the commander, who was a Captain, was coming out from the landing zone to help us. The problem was, the enemy was between us and him, he didn’t know it, he got shot and killed immediately, his radio operator got shot and killed immediately, and several others were killed or wounded in that group. So, they couldn’t help us any more—this was a, as I found out later of course, it was a crack North Vietnamese group. So, it turned out that the man that was to replace our killed company commander happened to be flying in on a helicopter to go to another unit. 32:14 He heard on the radio what was going on and proceeded, with his helicopter sitting quite a bit above us, took and led us out and away from the enemy, because we didn’t know where the enemy was and who was what because the Lieutenant had no idea where we were. Interviewer: But, he’s got a radio operator with him who can talk to the helicopter? That is correct, and the radio operator talked with this Captain who was coming in for another unit, was pulled back out and then we took a really roundabout way, even in the dark at the last, to get back to the landing zone, and we were guided by this helicopter because he could see where there was a probable safe way to go. 33:05 The enemy, for whatever reason, did not want to engage us any more. As soon as we started to back off 17 �and the other rescuing group started to retreat as well, they let us go. I don’t know if they were too small, I was told their group was quite large, but whether the group was too small or not ready to attack, I don’t know what the problem was on their part. We then made it back to the landing zone. Interviewer: While you were out there did you have any kind of artillery or air support? No artillery, no air Interviewer: Often, once the Americans knew where a large formation was, then they would bring all of that in. There were other skirmishes later where we had that, but the problem was there was so many GI’s close to the enemy they couldn’t fire the artillery, and air support, I don’t even remember any planes even coming overhead on that one. 34:04 The attack initially was so small that they probably didn’t focus on that as a priority to send the planes out. Interviewer: A larger enemy unit, once spotted, becomes a target and once you’re out of view they pull away, and they may know that in any case. Well, that certainly was a pretty dramatic initiation there all at once. Do you remember at all what you felt like after you had gotten back out? Somewhat shaken a bit, however it’s interesting, I think it put a resolve in the group and stepped us up a couple levels above where we were, because all of a sudden we got ready, we knew we were in something serious, and it wasn’t like the booby traps and once in a while a sniper, like up north, here all of a sudden your training came back into focus and it was ok, now let’s do it. 35:04 If I can add, it turns out that that captain that was flying in for another unit, knew the captain that was killed, and asked to be 18 �reassigned to our unit, which he was, and he then took over the reins, and his—we’ll talk about it later, but his leadership is what really helped us in our resolve, in our organization and everything. He was a crack officer. Interviewer: Do you have a sense of how old he was at the time? Probably about six years older than me, probably about twenty-six, I believe. Interviewer: At that time he would have seemed to you maybe, as kind of an older guy? An older guy and I hated him from the start. He was the father that was very dictatorial, you do this, and you do this, and I don’t want any feedback, and if you didn’t understand the whys and wherefores, it was just—you were to do what he said, and accept it for face value without any understanding. 36:13 So, you grew quickly to dislike him because of that. Interviewer: So, after that first incident, were you pretty regularly in contact with the enemy, or did you have longer periods of lulls, what were you doing basically? We had pretty regular contact with the enemy from that point forward. There were several other landing zones throughout the time that I was in Vietnam, that we created, and for various purposes all along the Cambodian boarder, but we started running pretty steady into other problems. Let me back up, and I forget which is the larger a brigade or a battalion? 37:05 Interviewer: The brigade is larger. Ok, the battalion, it was the battalion that established this landing zone, not the company. There were four companies within this landing zone, that’s coming back to me, so forgive me for forgetting that. By and large what turned out, and I’m getting far ahead, but we’ll 19 �come back to the various questions you have. We, as a company, B Company, Bravo Company, very seldom had the first attack of all the companies. We were primarily, until later on, the company that was saving the other companies. 37:59 And it became aware to me as I became some seasoned, and certainly more mature with understanding after I left Vietnam, that this commander that I really disliked, was really going solely by the book, he was very sharp, very smart, very wise, and his strategies and methodologies were so sharp, I think the enemy recognized that, and they knew better than to try to attack him. The other companies were sloppy, and they were constantly being attacked, and we would have to go out and rescue them, but it was a constant thing. The other companies—well, we had our injuries, not too many deaths in our company, but the other companies had a lot of deaths and a lot of injuries, and they constantly had to get replaced for that. 39:00 Interviewer: Was your company essentially sent on the same kinds of assignments and missions and they were? Yes we were, yes we were, the same patrols, the same occasional search and destroy missions, and all that. We had the same orders, the same marching orders, as the other companies, as they went out in different geographic areas. Again, we found out later, we were right by the enemy, and we discovered that later, but we were not attacked. Interviewer: So, in this case, it wasn’t as if you were being held back by the company commander to be the fire brigade, you just happened to be the one that was in the position to help when they needed help? That is correct 20 �Interviewer: Did you see evidence of developed enemy placements in the area? Did they have a lot of—did they have tunnels, caves, underground bunkers and things like that or were they moving around? Fortunately I was too big to be the tunnel rat, so to speak. 40:05 I think that’s what they called them, the person that would investigate the tunnels when we would discover them. And they were frequent, as well as some of the bunker complexes, and much of the time vacated. There were evidences, although there wasn’t any garbage or any other evidence, it was just stumbling across these things. They were very clean with what they did. I’m talking about either the Vietcong, or the North Vietnamese troops. Interviewer: So, there were a lot of them around. How did you go about trying to find the enemy? What—if you are doing a search and destroy mission, or something like that, how does that seem to work? Well, methodically, as I recall, we’d have short patrols, short—after establishing a landing zone, short patrols, and then gradually widening the patrols, or a dedicated sweep through an area that was a suspected enemy territory, or a trail that they used a lot. 41:12 Interviewer: When you were doing these things did they do any artillery, air preparation or bombardment, or did you go in first? Yes, frequently, we had artillery, on some occasions we had fighter that would come over with napalm bombs and drop them just over our head onto the enemy that was attacking our established positions, and probably, and this may be off—I can recall in my time there, some B52 bomb strikes very, very close to us when there was, obviously, a very large force out there to deal with Interviewer: Ok, When the B52s hit, could you feel it where you were? 42:04 21 �It was incredible, you could never see the B52s unless you really strained. Of course, you had orders to stay still because they had some navigation, which I didn’t know at the time that let them know where to drop the bombs. They were incredibly accurate, but they were so close to us that, literally, I would go a couple feet off the ground with the explosions. That was just a couple times, don’t get me wrong, it wasn’t every time they dropped them, but I remember a couple were very close situations. With huge encampments they had to do that. Interviewer: Did the landing zones themselves come under attack either with mortar fire or rockets, or sappers, or anything else? 43:03 It came under attack from those things, plus being assaulted by the enemy. Interviewer: Do you remember any specific incidents out of those attacks or certain characteristics of them that stick with you? I just remember when the first incoming of any nature came into the camp it wasn’t always followed by an attack by the enemy themselves, but you would dive into your foxhole and hope for the best, and fortunately most of the time those attacks of mortars and such, caused minimal physical damage to the men. Probably the best recollection I have of being assaulted, although they never fully breached the perimeter. 44:04 I remember the enemy troops were so high, I believe on marijuana, that you would almost cut out their legs from under them and they would start crawling towards you until you killed them. Just incredible, and that’s probably the most significant. Then the next day you go out and there are dead enemy bodies all over, and you do what clearing and collecting of things for intelligence and all that you need to, but a very interesting situation. 22 �Interviewer: What opinion did you have of these people who were doing this to you? We had gained such an intense dislike for these people—they were not only not good, but they were sneaky, they were doing things for the wrong reasons, we were the pure enemy and out to do you in, and of course, that was the ultimate, is preservation of yourself, beside the bigger political scene that was involved. 45:18 Interviewer: Did you have a certain sort of respect for somebody willing to do that much or go that far to get rid of you, or did you not really think of it in those terms? Actually, I had some respect on one hand, for many of the attacks that we had, and what they went through, but I still hated them, all right, a strange element there. Other times they were no better than a dog. I can remember that frequently it was very calm out, and of course, it was very humid and very hot, we would be sitting in a landing zone in a jungle area, and it was a distinctive marijuana smell—it’s a funny thing, and my son still doesn’t believe me to this day, I have never had one marijuana smoke. 46:14 I’m not saying good for me or anything like that, I just didn’t, because I was so concerned, in Vietnam, in having my wits about me, I didn’t want anything affecting me. It isn’t a noble thing at all; it’s just self-preservation. There was something so distinctive about the marijuana smell, and it just floated through the air, and that usually preceded the attacks the next day. That was at night that we would sense that, and we would be hit the next day. A couple times we were hit at night, but not very often. Interviewer: You mentioned that you got—the enemy is using marijuana etc., and did the people out in the field, the American soldiers, did they do much in the way of using drugs? 47:01 23 �Oh yeah, some of them were, and we had access. Villagers would come out and find us even though we didn’t see the village, the villagers would find us, especially when we were closer in our deployment to the villages. They would come out, and we would never be under attack then, they come out and dress their kids up in all sorts of great ways, and so on and so forth, and they would offer a lot to us. Many of the soldiers could not deal with things, took them up on it, and bought whatever they could of the drugs that they could take. Interviewer: Now, was their enough of that sort of thing to cause problems within the units? If there was, I was never aware of it. It was pretty much kept under wraps, either ignored or the ones using it were careful how they used it. Interviewer: So, it wasn’t as if a unit was not functioning in a moment of crisis, or when it needed to because of that? 48:04 You know, it’s a funny thing too—as I recall, most of the time the group I was with were never under that influence, and again, I don’t know why, but we just weren’t. I suspect that the others had been through so much garbage with the initial confrontations with the enemy, they had to do it just to maintain their sanity, I don’t know. Interviewer: Another issue that sort of comes up a lot with units in Vietnam is racial or ethnic issues. What kind of mix of people did you have in you platoon? The kind of mix of people--I would put it at probably seventy-five percent Caucasian, and twenty-five percent African American. Interviewer: Did the different groups mostly keep to themselves? 24 �Absolutely, when it was relaxing time, or down time, the blacks were off by themselves. The whites were off by themselves, and even those groups had other splits too. 49:19 But, by and large, the blacks had the attitude, in our unit, that they weren’t going to extend themselves for anything to endanger themselves, but they would obey the rules. We tolerated each other until it came to a scrimmage, and all of a sudden there was no color. It’s the funniest thing , it was distinctive, absolutely distinctive, once the fighting started , and all of us, black and white, were drawn into the battle. You would have some black and some white that would be chicken, hide in a foxhole behind us, the enemy's foxhole, bunkers of the enemy behind us, and there wasn’t any distinction between black and white. 50:19 There were some black and white up on the front line of the assault, so it wasn’t a color thing it was an individual thing, but the ones that were really fighting, you had no concern about the guy next to you, regardless of his color, doing what he had to help you out and visa versa. Interviewer: Now did you spend, pretty much, the rest of your time in Vietnam in this particular sector, in this specific area? Yes, primarily because it became such a hot area, it was recognized as a critical encampment in a place, a trail, a primary trail, the Ho Chi Minh Trail, of which you would get a lot of side trails off, and establishment of many, many enemy troops. 51:18 Interviewer: How long were you actually out there? Did you spend the whole year in Vietnam, or did you leave early? I spent one year in Vietnam, the whole year in the field. Interviewer: So, you’re there in that sector the better part of eight months, or something like that? 25 �That’s correct Interviewer: Over the course of that time, did you have a lot of turnover in personnel, were men going in and out, being wounded? The biggest turnover of personnel we had because of wounded or killed in action. You had some ready to leave because they put in a year, but that was a small percentage to be honest. 52:07 Most did not see the full year for one reason or another, at least with the group I was with. Interviewer: Basically, but if people were in on their own sort of calendars, or whatever, they would come in at different times and leave at different times? Yes Interviewer: Over the course of the year, most of your unit would have turned over while you were there? Yes, by virtue of the calendar most of the unit would have turned over, but it turned over two to three times within that year, although that was the bigger perspective. Interviewer: So, in that process, do you kind of move up in rank and seniority, get promoted, or get assignments beyond being just a rifleman? Yes, I did, and actually I became a radio operator, I was on a squad level finally, I was a grenadier, then a rifleman, and then became a radio operator. 53:08 I liked that because it kept me—I was more in the middle of the action of knowing what was going on, I’m talking about, and by virtue of knowing what was going on you had to many times be more up at the front of the action, with your boss, to determine what was going on, what was needed and so on and so forth, but I liked that. I remember the radio operator for the whole company, not just the platoon, but the company, had finished his year and was 26 �going home, and they pulled me up from squad level to company level with—surprised me, and I didn’t know why, but obviously I was able to do some things that they were comfortable with. 54:02 So, I came alongside this Captain I didn’t like, and actually started to be his radio operator, for him, and over the other operators in the company. Interviewer: By the time you became his radio operator, had you developed a certain respect for him yet, or was he still disliked? Oh, much more, and by virtue of being intimately in everything, by virtue of communicating while we were on patrol, to the radio, or even being part of the strategy with the key sergeants in the rest of the platoons and squads. I became much more knowledgeable of what was going on, and really started to gain more respect for his presence, his knowledge, and wisdom, the whole shot. 55:01 Interviewer: Now, were there particular operations that you did that were of a larger scale than others? I mean, did you get involved with certain things and brigade level actions, or was it pretty much all company, platoon, battalion stuff? There were a handful of brigade sweeps, and there was one specific battalion sweep that they put us on. I remember that they did not want the enemy to know where we were, so we went quite a few days without any supplies being sent in as we started to go out on this sweep. We started on that battalion sweep, again not running into much. There were many other times before that, that we would either run into the enemy or villagers hiding in the enemies bunkers and so on, so forth. 56:08 But, we started on the sweep, and the Captain I mentioned to you was a very gung ho fellow. His father, it turns out, was a General, was a three star General, so he had career in his mind for the military, and already had that ingrained in him to a great degree. He wanted to get first hand into a 27 �battle instead of always coming in after a battle and trying to help out some other group, which is frequently what we had to do. Let me back up if I may, Jim, because something else came to mind. One of the larger engagements that we ran into—one company that was the worst of all the companies in running into problems, and losing most of their men, ran into a major force in one of their larger patrols. 57:11 It turns out they ran into a massive hospital complex of the North Vietnamese, extremely massive, of underground hospital rooms, and tunnels, and everything else extraordinary. The company was probably, seventy-five percent wiped out from the standpoint of wounded or killed. Our company, part of our company was selected to go in and rescue them in the midst of this massive force. So, we finally go in there, in that area, in the dark, and we managed to walk around, somehow anticipated, and somehow they knew what the safest way was to get to this stranded company, what was left of it.. 58:10 We got to them, pulled them all back in—there was a small area of bamboo, and other jungle that we were in, and all of a sudden the word came down, everybody stay quiet, not engage the enemy, and don’t move. We were a relatively small force, relatively, and it turns out, at that point, probably thirty or forty feet away from us, the whole complex had been evacuated by the enemy, probably right in front of us. If we had engaged them we would have all gotten killed because there were so many of them. So, they let them go, we pulled—we sensed they were out—we pulled back with the injured and dead company people, got them made in the perimeter, and that’s when the B52 bomb strike came in. 59:11 That’s when I was raised off the ground because it was so close to us, and that was by accident because they had no idea that was there. So, that was the first one, and the second one 28 �was this other battalion sweep—I hope I’m not making this too long for you Jim? Interviewer: Oh, no The second battalion sweep—we were on the far edge with the rest of the battalion, and we had already been going on it, as I recall, probably two or three days. When we went through an area, our Captain told the first sergeant, “take the squad down over here, I’m not sure what’s down in this lower area here to our side. No one else has been through, but let’s make sure we have that cleared as we go through”, so we started going through with the rest of the company. 60:00 This squad happened to run right into a bunker complex of the enemy, and immediately our Captain ran off to rescue them, even ahead of our troops, and, of course, I had to be with him as the radio operator. I remember him running so fast, and me having all this weight on my body, thinking, “What are we doing?” The first sergeant was injured, as well as a few others, and by that time we had become a family in a sense, if you can understand that. The whole company went over, followed the Captain, and it was the most unorganized focus I had ever seen him have. I was concerned for the group he sent over there, and he had a real tizzy for the first sergeant; it turns out, I was told later, who was sent there to make sure was protected because they saw bigger and better things for him, bigger commands, all right? 1:09 As well as the rest of the squad that was attacked, he was concerned about them, but he was real excited about confronting, first hand, the enemy. I remember us getting down to that area, with the whole company disorganization of chaotic, strategic movement, and he identified where the squad was, and sent some of the company over to be with them, and at the same time there was a bunker right in front of where we were at the moment. We had already started to walk through the bunker complex—I remember even seeing clothes 29 �strung out, and they didn’t even know we were there. I remember, they just weren’t expecting us. 2:04 So, they had quickly evacuated some of those bunkers, and we started to walk through them without resistance. We ran up to one bunker that was firing quite heavily at us, the Captain turned to the group, there was a group of about six of us in the command group, and he turned to us and said, “I want to take this bunker”. He looked at me and said, “Rich, you take a small group around and attack this entrance, there’s another side entrance I’m going to go around to with a couple men”. We got out of a jungle area into what was a clearing just before the bunker, and all of a sudden everything blew. It is every interesting, one of the two fellows with me was a black fellow from New Orleans it turns out. 3:03 He saw more in New Orleans than many of us saw in Vietnam. He was a hardened street guy, very hardened; I mean scars on his face from gang confrontations and all that. I mean, he had been through it, and he had been put in the command post because he had two weeks to go before he was scheduled to leave the country, and they wanted to keep him safe. Vividly, Jim, I remember him turning to me, the strangest look in his eye, and he told me, “let’s go get em”. This was a guy that did not stick his neck out for any other situation up to that point. That was part of what made it so distinctive, along with his being what they called “a short timer”. We proceeded to assault this bunker. 4:01 He went to one trail and I went to another trail, and this fellow, his name was Hughie Williams, as a matter of fact, it turns out in a visit to the Vietnam memorial, they have his section of the wall in Smithsonian, the strangest thing, his name was there, and it just blew us all away. We had to get close together, on this trail, before we got out in the clearing, and as soon as we got out in the clearing he got shot in the head and thrown back into me. I proceeded to start to go, the other guy 30 �was also shot and killed, that was with me, and for some reason they didn’t have a clear shot at me. Bullets started coming down the trail towards me, and I suspect you’ve heard it before Jim; it’s incredible slow motion of what takes place. 5:01 It’s almost like b-ab-o-o-m, b-a-b-o-o-m, b-a-b-o-o-m, and if there could be a funny side to this—I saw the bullets come down the trail, I don’t remember training for that, and I thought, and this is my mentality of my upbringing, I thought, “What would John Wayne do?” That is not a joke, that is honestly what I thought, and I thought, “get out of the way, stupid”, and so, I flipped, and of course it was all happening very quick, and they got a bead on me and shot at my head, knocked off my helmet, and grazed my head, didn’t penetrate my skull. Well, I ended up on my back, my helmet off, my eyes open, and I thought, “I’m going to pretend I’m dead”, and it was all instinctive. 6:00 The firing stopped within seconds after that, and I then got up and ran behind a tree, and I remember the Captain being brought by a medic over to me at that tree—how graphic am I supposed to get? Interviewer: As much as you have to, to tell the story. His arm was blown in half, and the medic had me hold together his arm while he put, and I found out later, was a pressure bandage on to get him ready to be medivaced. At the same time, he was continuing to give me orders, to call in medivac, call in support troops, to get withdrawal to those who had other wounded and needed to get back to the area, and then radio orders to the other sergeants, other platoon sergeants, of how to reposition their troops and then how to finish attacking the enemy. 7:02 It turns out that he was in a state of shock—I’m going to jump quite a bit ahead—1993 I got a call from a sergeant, and he started to back down, and finally he said, “Were you in Vietnam with the 1st Air Cav?” A long story short, it turns out the sergeant that I served with, and very closely 31 �served with, and he saw my name in a publication, and out of that thought he would try to contact me, and that was the first contact I’d had. Right after that, the Captain I served with, his life ended up being spared. He called me up and he was serving in the White House as a drug czar in the 90’s under Clinton. He called me up and I was working at the time with Cornerstone University here in Grand Rapids. 8:01 They came running back from the switchboard and said, “the White House is on the phone and they want to speak to you”, and I thought it was a joke or something, but they were dead serious, they were stunned, well it turned out to be him, and he said, “I thought you were killed that day”. He doesn’t remember me holding his arm together because he was in shock, but his mind was so ingrained with his responsibilities, that he popped out the orders left and right. He became the youngest four star General to be commissioned, unreal—his name is Barry McCaffrey. Interviewer: Oh, sure A brilliant guy, and I didn’t know back when I hated him in Vietnam, when I was a kid, a stupid, snot nosed kid. How brilliant this guy was, just extraordinary. 8:54 Ok, let me back up, so, we put him together, started to go back, and I remember the medic saying “there’s the enemy, shoot em”, and I looked around and said, “what, where?” He grabbed my rifle and started to spray into the bunkers that were behind us and we were going back to get to medivac. It turns out that several of our own men had gotten scared and hid in those bunkers. Oh, I so detested them because they weren’t helping the situation. So, the medivac could not land because it was such thick jungle. They had to hoist him up, but they finally got him out and then some of the rest of us that weren’t so drastically injured could finally be treated by the field hospital at that time. But, that was 32 �the most distinctive thing, what happened in the rest of the battalions, I don’t know. 9:55 But, in days ensuing, they ran into a massive force, maybe the company, and at least the brigade of that battalion that was in that area, that was in the outskirts of the enemy. Interviewer: How far into your tour was that? Do you have any sense? That was March 9th, and I’ll never forget that day of 1969. Interviewer: You were pretty well into it then, you had been out there for some time? Yes, correct Interviewer: You’re spending a lot of time out there and you’re largely---did you get breaks? Did you get R&R? Did you get to go out of the combat zone at all? Not me up to that point in time. I was due for an R&R, by virtue of my seniority, to get some place, and I frankly wanted to look at another round eyed person, and I asked for Australia, everybody asked for Australia, so I had to wait until my seniority got to me, and I eventually went there after that skirmish. 11:06 I can’t remember when it was, if it was the end of March or April when I finally got to go. That would have been the first break. Interviewer: You never got to go back away from the front lines? You were pretty much always in the field? Always, and the only exception to that was right after that intensive skirmish where I was injured and the captain was injured, and many others killed—I remember one guy, still alive, had his face blown off at point blank range in that whole skirmish—I remember it was just an intense time. We found out later we were at the edge of a huge force. Right after that, I remember our unit was finally given some down time in the secured area 33 �outside Phuoc Vinh, I do remember the name of that town. 12:03 I spent a week in the rear, they had stitched me up, and things finally—ended up they put me back out in the field, and I was so jumpy, Jim, it was not funny. To the point where I thought artillery, our own artillery going overhead, from way out in the field, I thought was incoming for us, and I remember diving in, it must have been a six-foot foxhole that had been there for a while, and I remember hurting my head because I landed on my head, but that’s how jumpy I was. After that, I honestly don’t know if I was as effective as I was before. Before, I really had it together by virtue of the training, not because I was so good, but by virtue of the training, I’m talking about, and acting out what I was supposed to do, listening to orders, and handling my responsibilities, and so on and so forth. 12:57 Interviewer: Now did you continue to serve as the company radio operator, or did you do something else after that? No, I did, I did, and it was distinctive. Of course when you become close to someone like that it became, with this Captain, even in the two months I was serving with him. The captain that replaced him, I just had trouble finding quite that same level of respect for him, and I’m sure it was just because I was so attached to the other man, not that he was bad; I just didn’t get very close to the other captain. Interviewer: Over the course of time, that kind of intense experience does tend to take it’s toll on you, and you felt like you weren’t as effective later on as you had been for a certain stage there before that. Did you see that in the men around you, or were you not really paying attention? Yeah, I did, and you know, two things stand out. 13:58 I’m not afraid to say I was scared, and I functioned, but it was under fear. I remember the distinctive marijuana 34 �smell, but the crack of the AK47’s that they primarily used, was distinctive, and that crack, when I heard that crack—before I was injured—I mean I had a couple other mortar round incidents, and I still got some shrapnel in me, but I mean serious injury. Before that time that crack meant engage, and after that time that crack meant, “oh, no”, it was a different kind of fear. The other was an attack fear, and this other was withdrawal fear. 14:56 Interviewer: Did you see that kind of thing in the men around you too, if they were out there long enough? Oh yeah, absolutely, absolutely, the ones I was with anyhow. Interviewer: Another dimension of this, you mentioned a while back that there were cases where you were near villages, and civilians would come out and sell you things etc. How much contact, or how much did you actually see of the civilian population, because you’re never in the cities or places like that? Very little, and when we swept in an area that was close to a village it was a refreshing time. You would get pop sold for ridiculous amounts of money, I mean it was a real treat, and all of a sudden it was real people, and for whatever reason they put on a front as being very friendly. They—of course having to live in that had to be a different kind of experience for sure, but they were trying to take advantage as much as they could to survive, and take advantage of the GI’s, and all this and that. 16:01 And, they dealt with you at arms length, and tried to be warm at the same time, but it was purposeful warmth, not to get close to you, but just to get out of you what they could. Very infrequently would we do that, close enough to see the villages and that would be a real treat. 35 �Interviewer: As far as you could tell the North Vietnamese weren’t really using the villages as their bases of operations or anything? Oh, there were some operations that we had intelligence that they were definitely, especially the Viet Cong, were using villages, and we would sweep through some of these villages, and I recall, my experiences when we did that, or even found some villagers hiding in an enemy bunker out some places when we were doing a search and destroy, and treating them with the utmost respect. 17:08 Totally different than what came out of the My Lai incident, and the explosiveness of that incident to the people to where we were all like that, and it just wasn’t like that, Jim. I never experienced it, I never heard of it happening, and it was a very isolated situation, but unfortunately with the unpopularity of the war, that was a great thing to take off on, and fuel all those negative feelings. Interviewer: It struck me at some point as opposed to the poster child of WWII, it was Audie Murphy, and who was the poster child for Vietnam, it was William Calley, and what was the most famous name of a soldier coming out of there, and that could be it. Interesting Jim, interesting Interviewer: You didn’t have the same level of contact with the civilian population as some of the people in the rear areas did and all that kind of stuff. It was just kind of on occasions? 18:10 When I was injured and I spent some time in the rear, I became more aware of--the military personnel were in the rear enjoying extraordinary comforts, cots, barbers, and massages, and all this and that going on. Secure, scared they might get a mortar once in a 36 �great while, and I’m thinking, “What are you talking about? What are you scared for? This is incredibly good”, but the small majority of us were out in the field, and I thought, “that’s really not fair”, but I also felt proud about it at the same time, and I was ready to do my duty, in spite of the strange feelings. Interviewer: So, basically you went to a rear area hospital then after your head injury in that incident. Basically what was the care like there, did they take good care of you when you were back there, or what? 19:05 Oh yeah, good care, and certainly there was some physical healing, but I’m sure they knew there was mental healing, and let me write some letters home, and that was started because I was not married at that time, and I didn’t want my mother to know I was injured and being that close to death, or many other times I had been involved in those things, she didn’t know any of that stuff. But I was given an opportunity to write, and I wrote to a sibling and told him to share with the others, and things like that. I was pretty much alone as I recall. The others remained in the field, or were so severely injured they had to go to Japan, or other places for work. Interviewer: In general, did you communicate much with people at home? Did you write regularly or get letters? 19:57 Yeah, and one of my fonder memories, when the moon would be full it was like daylight when you were sitting in the foxhole standing guard, and you would sit there and write and be able to see what you were writing, and I enjoyed that. I would frequently get boxes, care boxes from home, and I had fun with that. You would cherish the letters that would come out to the field with the supplies. 37 �Interviewer: Now, as you got towards the end of your year, were you counting down how long you had to stay? Big time, hugely counting down, and became more and more nervous as the time came closer. Of course, we didn’t get into major battles or skirmishes to the point where it would have been a problem for me. I remember being taken back to the secure area to where we’d be processed out, and in a couple days I was on a commercial liner headed back home, and thrilled to death. 21:00 Interviewer: Before we pick up on that, you got an R&R to actually go Australia. Can you tell me about that experience? Well, it was, as strange as it may sound, a wholesome experience. I stayed in the Sydney area, went with a fellow that I knew in the company, and we were just going to stay together, and we met some girls, and one of them was Oriental even though we went there to try to be with some round-eyed women. She was part of a bigger family that owned a ranch, and they took him back to the ranch, so he could spend time with the family. The girl I was with was a wholesome girl, dumb naïve me, maybe there were other things going on, but I just was the wholesome side. I saw what I wanted to see, and experienced what I wanted to experience. I remember being clean in Sydney, oh yeah, you experience some of the animals, so you can say you saw them, and send back some boomerangs to the family, and things like that. 22:10 It was a total relax time. You stuck out like a sore thumb, and people knew you were a GI, big time, even though you tried to put civilian clothes on, it didn’t work, with the short haircut and the posture and everything else. Interviewer: How long did you get to be there? 38 �A week Interviewer: What was it like having to go back? Not fun, and a matter of fact, when I got back I was given orders to get on a helicopter to go back to my unit, and I purposely, spent another, probably three days, reluctantly, know what to do. I found some places to sleep, some barracks that weren’t occupied, to try to determine what I was going to do. 23:02 Finally I sucked it up, and got on a helicopter and went out, and they turned their back and said, “ok, you’re here, we’ll let it go”. That’s what it amounted to, but I was not wanting to do that. Interviewer: Are there particularly any recollections that you got in the field there that you haven’t brought in, and want to add to the story before they take you home, or do you thing you hit the main ones? I had some that are standing out in my mind, but there were countless times, and specific dates, in December and January, largely when we were rescuing other companies, that we were in the middle of the thick of it trying to save them. 24:05 Sometimes it was just trying to distract the enemy; so they could fall back, when they were between us and the rest of our company—the rest of our battalion, yes battalion, from another company. So, we were distracting and yet in incredibly close situations of life and death. I mean, just real intense, and discovering even more so, from some of the many reunions that I’ve had since 1993, It is the General who would bring us back together, especially some of us sergeants, I retained the rank of sergeant obviously—move up, being the company RTO. 25:04 And we would recount things, and in almost everyone of those battles they mention my name, the handful of guys that would always hide in the back, and I remember them being reassigned to some of the companies needing to get their group 39 �larger again because of the casualties, and then becoming casualties because they were useless people. I remember that, and I remember disliking them so much for not pulling together like I thought we all were at that time. I’m trying to remember any distinctive things, Jim. Just incredibly hot—I’m a person, even at that time when I was physically fit, I think I was about 150 or 160 pounds, I think it was 160, I would carry the most water of the whole company on me. 26:08 I would carry bladders, two gallons full, five—a couple two gallons and three one gallons, at one point, one time we didn’t get supplies, I remember there were five on my back. I didn’t care, I had to have fluid because I sweat so much, but I remember the jungles being so incredibly thick, I remember being impatient with the point man and taking over. The point man was taking my machete and whacking through the undergrowth, and we’d finally start to move, very humid, other than the monsoons up north, it was all very hot and humid weather down below. We, one time went through a rubber plantation and we thought we had an enemy group, and it turns out we didn’t encounter them, if there was they got away. This is probably the most significant. 27:03 I remember several times, us finally having the enemy, I’ll just call him that, on the run. I can’t tell you how many times we were told to stop. We were given orders, from back in the rear; we’re not to go any further across the border. I mean, we were so close to taking and destroying the enemy, it’s not funny, and then we got into political games, and then there was huge frustration, Jim, huge frustration. That was so disenheartening, but our captain was really good, he would regroup us, and get us pumped up, and we would go and try to attack again. 40 �Interviewer: Now, aside from the question of the border, did you have issues with rules of engagement, or were you mostly in free fire zones where you could fire when you needed to? 28:00 Pretty much in free fire zones. Interviewer: The DMZ is pretty much like that because there are civilians up there. Yes Interviewer: Then at least outside of those villages anyway Yeah, I’m definitely talking about down by the—by Saigon, by the Cambodian boarder, yeah. Interviewer: Right Except a couple time we went through villages, and we were told to be very careful. Interviewer: Right At those times—fortunately we didn’t engage the enemy, at least in what we recognized as the enemy, and treated the others totally respectful, including the property and everything else. Interviewer: Over the course of that year, especially as you got to the last couple of months of it, after your Captain had been hurt, did you think at all about whether you were getting anywhere or making any progress? Did you feel like you were kind of accomplishing things or was it just continuing on kind of a treadmill? I felt like I was spinning wheels at that point in time, and I didn’t see any purpose to what we were doing, other than pure survival, totally. 29:05 The impetus to be aggressive against the enemy was gone at that point in time. 41 �Interviewer: Finally you do get your chance to get out, and you get to go home now. They pulled you out of the rear, and how do they get you back to the states? By commercial jet, I think it was American Airlines, or was it TWA? It may have been at that time. A stripped down, very basic version, hardly—didn’t have anything to eat, there were stewardesses, commercial airline stewardesses there, but they had extremely little contact with us, but we were ecstatic, so we didn’t care about anything, other than it being an extremely long flight, that’s how we got back. 30:00 I was flown into—oh my—I think I was flown back to California, yeah, it was California I flew back to, and then I got on a commercial—no, I got on a military flight and ended up ultimately, in Gary, but I can’t remember. Interviewer: Now, do you go home in uniform, or did you switch to civilian clothing somewhere along the way somewhere? Well, this is an area that’s probably the most difficult, other than some of the traumatic things that I experienced in the war, was the experience when I got home. I remember the plane landing in California, and I looked up and wondered, “Where are the people going to be that are welcoming us home?” Got off the plane, went through the terminal, didn’t have anybody spitting on me, but I had people walking over to the other side of the corridor to stay away from me. 31:04 I thought, “What’s going on here?” Then, stupid old me, because all I had over there was military communications of one sort or another, and of course, they were always going to talk up the right stuff, then I realized that not only was the war hated, but we were hated, and I’ve forgotten—forgiven, that may sound too strong, but I don’t know if I’ve forgiven the people for that. That’s the most disturbing thing. I’m not able to show much emotion and I’m having trouble dealing 42 �with that, but what will bring me the closest to tears is the welcoming of the other current war veterans home. 31:56 I don’t begrudge them that, that’s not where I’m coming from, but what I didn’t get, and I found out it was much more widespread, that General, the Captain that became general, he got spit on in the face. In fact, he wrote a couple books, and I got—that’s my claim to fame, I was in the books. He related that, after he returned he was spit in the face when he, and his wife were walking into a government building. It just really threw him off, but that’s probably the most difficult thing , dumb as it sounds, and almost ahead of the war trauma, alright? Interviewer: Now, you get yourself back home finally. What did you do then, once you got back to Gary? 32:54 They gave me thirty days, and of course, the immediate family, they all, “it’s great, you’re home, we’ll honor you”, but I never felt it. I didn’t feel it, I felt it was forced more than anything, and just because they loved me, I was part of the family, and that sort of thing. Nothing distinctive about the thirty days--I was assigned to D.C. from there to go, according to my orders, to the Honor Guard. I thought, “oh, that’s nice”, a nice little finish to my six months is what it was. I got there and they said, “you have to re-up for two years”, and I said, “What are you talking about?” The said, “the training is six months alone, for what you’ll have to do”, and I said, “I’m not re-upping for nothing, I’m not going to stay in this army any longer than I have to”, so they made me a drill sergeant at Fort Campbell, Kentucky, of all things, so that’s how I finished out my time, being able to dish out to the new troops what I had to take. 33:58 So, I put on the hat of a drill sergeant and I, unfortunately, played it up to the hilt, but with the design in mind that 43 �I knew many of them were going to face potentially dangerous situations, and I was intent on them being ready for that. Interviewer: Did you tell them much of anything about Vietnam, or did you just not do that because that’s not what a drill sergeant does? No, we did not, I remember putting on a demeanor of a true drill sergeant and being a real jerk, is what it is. It was to the point that some of the recruits could have mopped up the floor with me, and through a number of situations, they were told by another sergeant, to take me out, and I remember them saying, “he’s crazy”, so my role was fulfilled. They listened to everything I did from day one, but at the end of the cycle I was treating them right too. 35:09 Once they finally finished accomplishing what they were supposed to in that basic training. Interviewer: Now, finally having—you get your discharge now, it’s early 1970 by then, and what do you do in terms of picking up your life at that point? I remember going back and knowing I had to get a job. When I left the army, I wanted to leave the army, and any connection I had with it, and Vietnam behind me because I became painfully aware of the feelings about that whole situation. Didn’t understand them fully because I’d been taught like—this is right, they’re wrong, take care of them, this aggression, da, da, da, and then hearing, we were all wet, so it was very confusing. 36:10 So, I thought—further, the distaste that I experienced with the Vietnam War, and all that were in it together, I didn’t want people to know, so I stayed away from that subject in my life like that was never a part of my life, to the extreme. Interviewer: Did you go back to school or start working? 44 �Yeah, I started to work, and had some great experiences at work, ended going back, at age thirty-five, to get a college degree with a family and a full time job, not the best way to do it, but all of a sudden that finally became beneficial to me, it was fun to do, it was a huge struggle, but it was an enormous satisfaction of the accomplishment because I was ready to interact and all. 37:18 Of course, being a little older I could relate different things, even though I felt funny with a largely standard college crowd, like they would look like, “What are you doing here, old man?” You could relate to the professor in much more of a life experience way, and that made it a rich time. Interviewer: Where did you go to college? Toledo University, as a matter of fact. Interviewer: What kind of work had you been doing before you went to college? I worked with the phone company. I became the district manager in four states over hotels, with the Howard Johnson Company, back in their heyday, in the seventies. Through a variety of things that occurred, I was going into college work, but I was redirected to be the business manager, administrator is what I think they called me, of an extremely large church and Christian school in Toledo in 1982. 38:23 they had a staff of eight guys, and they needed somebody to head up the finance group, their maintenance, their printers, their computers, the school, all the personnel, all the human resources type thing, and all this and that, so the pastors could do their functions in a spiritual way, and so, I guess that sounds like I did the unspiritual part, huh? So, I did that for eight years, and then I was invited to Cornerstone University in 1990, and came here to Grand Rapids for that. 38:59 I came as the director of estate planning, a totally different field than what I had been in. 45 �Interviewer: Then do you also have a connection with the Salvation Army, is it? No, I’m with the Salvation Army, doing essentially that work of—they have given me the title of Planned Giving Director, of the division, Western Michigan, and Northern Indiana Division, and it’s essentially estate planning work, but it’s raising deferred funds for the Salvation Army, is what it is, Jim. Interviewer: You wound up working for various religious organizations, or institutions, was faith or spirituality part of your life back when you were out there in Vietnam? Absolutely not—it’s interesting—when, back when that came to me—came to, then started rolling on the ground, I remember the machine gunner flying off to the side and out of the way, me rolling over behind the stump, and I rolled back over. I thought, “I’m ok, I went to church when I was young”, and my mother was always took me there. 40:10 My father died when I was about nine years old, and my mom raised me the rest of the way, and she always took me to church. I thought, “ok, I know there’s a God, I’m just going to pray to him”, but as soon as I started to pray I stopped because I thought, “I don’t know God”. I went through all of Vietnam without any direct relations, if you would call it that, with God. But, an unbelievable peace, strange in one sense, but I felt comfortable, and as I said, I got a grenade would, I got shrapnel wounds, and I still got some shrapnel in me. 41:07 I remember recruits saying, “One firefight, you were dynamic. We never would have made it without your being so solid, and such under fire”. We were off on the flank in one firefight. There was an enemy, some enemy behind us we didn’t know about, and their tracers were white—tracers were coming right over my head, but I didn’t know it, and I never told them I had no idea—I made them 46 �think I was really good, you know, and really tough. But, through all those things, many close encounters, and obviously being shot in the head, just inch and I wouldn’t be here talking with you, I know. Extraordinary situations, I went through all that without a faith, one that I could identify, ok? 42:07 Interviewer: Now, if you had to look back over that whole experience in the military, you’ve addressed parts of this already, but how would you say all of the affected you or changed you? Were you different at all when you came out, or did you know more when you came out than when you went in? Know more about what? Interviewer: Well, either yourself or the world around you in the one way, or do you think you were a different person than you were when you went in? I think, at least through the early nineties, I did a magnificent job of compartmentalizing everything up to that point in time. I had a compartment of my association with the war, and all that it did to me, and I locked the door and kept it in that little corner of my mind, ok? 43:06 So, I functioned as a normal person, what you call normal, productive person, let me put it that way, in society. I established a family, a good group of friends, I was doing good work, both in the secular environment as well as a full time Christian vocational environment, felt very satisfied until I was discovered in the early nineties, and it has been, frankly, very hard since then until now. A lot of things have come back, and that’s what I have trouble dealing with. 44:07 All of a sudden that door unlocked, and I don’t know who got the key to unlock it, but it’s not been a fun ride. In the sense that during the time that I was able to lock that door, and people close to me found out I was a drill sergeant, they would say, “you’re not the kind of guy to ever be a drill 47 �sergeant”, they couldn’t picture me, but that was the way I was coming across to them. The last few years have been real hard relationally. When people—I’m still married, it didn’t cause a divorce, it certainly caused pressures. My wife didn’t understand, and doesn’t to this day, not fully. She accepts some things, but she doesn’t understand. 45:01 I’m not faulting her for that, she just can’t. I’ve had a couple reunions, many ones in southern Michigan, with some of the guys that I served with. I’ve had a couple larger ones in Washington D.C., including an interesting reunion with that General, which is, of course, emotional by itself, though I didn’t show it, it was, inside, very emotional. Coming up to those reunions, I dreaded them, going to them, to the point that I would even be late for the start time of those reunions. Yet, after I went to them I felt encouraged because I got to share with other guys that went through some of the same garbage. 45:58 You hear all sorts of different stories, and, of course, some of them it’s everybody’s perspective, so I take it all with a grain of salt, but I still struggle profusely. I just missed one in July, and I’ll miss one in D.C., probably in November, because I just can’t face up to it. The General has invited me to it. He still has great connections and we get to go to the Vietnam Center, it’s around Veterans Day, there’s a wall ceremony and we get special front row seats, and recognized, and we can go to the wreath laying ceremony, by the President, and he really treats us right and all that, but in spite of all that good stuff, it’s still just really hard to deal with. Interviewer: Well, given that, I would like to close and thank you for coming and giving your time to tell me your story. You’ve done a good job and there’s a lot here that people are going to learn from. Thank you very much. 47:05 Thank you, Jim. 48 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Veterans History Project Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. History Department Description An account of the resource The Library of Congress established the Veterans History Project in 2001 to collect memories, accounts, and documents of U.S. war veterans from World War II and the Korean War, Vietnam War, and conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, and to preserve these stories for future generations. The GVSU History Department interviews are part of this work-in-progress, and may contain videos and audio recordings, transcripts and interview outlines, and related documents and photographs. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1914- Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Afghan War, 2001--Personal narratives, American Iran Hostage Crisis, 1979-1981--Personal narratives, American Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, American Michigan--History, Military Oral history Persian Gulf War, 1991--Personal narratives, American United States--History, Military United States. Air Force United States. Army United States. Navy Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James Boring, Frank Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-27 Language A language of the resource eng Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project interviews (RHC-27)</a> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Dorsey, Richard (Interview transcript and video), 2010 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dorsey, Richard Description An account of the resource Richard Dorsey was born in 1946 in Gary, Indiana. After graduating from high school and briefly attending college, Dorsey attempted to the join the Air Force, who denied him because of a bad knee, although the Army eventually drafted him. Following basic training at Fort Bliss, Texas and advanced training at Fort Polk, Louisiana, Dorsey deployed to Vietnam in 1968 and was assigned to the 1st Cavalry Division near the DMZ. After several months, the division moved south to an area near the Cambodian border and stayed there for the rest of his tour. Dorsey's company saw a lot of combat, and due to combat losses and troop rotation, he became a radio operator, and eventually his company commander's radio operator. After his tour, he served as a drill instructor at Fort Campbell, Kentucky. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smither, James (Interviewer) Subject The topic of the resource Oral history Veterans History Project (U.S.) United States--History, Military Michigan--History, Military Veterans Video recordings Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Personal narratives, American United States. Army Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Relation A related resource Veterans History Project (U.S.) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-09-23 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context DorseyR Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/455">Veterans History Project Collection, (RHC-27)</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf video/mp4 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/0d9d2f46350852a13f0064f4a8d6ed20.jpg 9294054b5ab9d316a3954532ca1d90fc Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Valley State University Photographs Subject The topic of the resource Aerial photographs Universities and colleges Michigan Grand Rapids (Mich.) Allendale (Mich.) Building Facilities Dormitories Students Events 1960s 1970s 1980s 1990s 2000s Description An account of the resource People, places, and events of Grand Valley State University from its founding in 1960 as a 4-year college in western Michigan. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource News & Information Services. University Communications Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/41">News &amp; Information Services. University Photographs. (GV012-01)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-03-03 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC-NC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright - Non-Commercial Use Permitted</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource image Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1960s-2000s Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Local Subject Subject headings specific to a particular image collection Campus Center 1970s Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/41">University photographs, GV012-01</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-01_UAPhotos_000126 Title A name given to the resource Campus Center. Students at Laker Landing in Campus Center Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dostie, James M. Description An account of the resource Students waiting in line at Laker Landing in Campus Center Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Allendale (Mich.) Universities and colleges Students Facilities Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC-NC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright - Non-Commercial Use Permitted</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives black and white photo https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/0000977d947a2b9e5caed31e9b366d50.jpg 9612e65d85b1b5e38fa73cedea4b57f3 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Valley State University Photographs Subject The topic of the resource Aerial photographs Universities and colleges Michigan Grand Rapids (Mich.) Allendale (Mich.) Building Facilities Dormitories Students Events 1960s 1970s 1980s 1990s 2000s Description An account of the resource People, places, and events of Grand Valley State University from its founding in 1960 as a 4-year college in western Michigan. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource News & Information Services. University Communications Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/41">News &amp; Information Services. University Photographs. (GV012-01)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-03-03 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC-NC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright - Non-Commercial Use Permitted</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource image Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1960s-2000s Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Local Subject Subject headings specific to a particular image collection 1990s Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/41">University photographs, GV012-01</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-01_UAPhotos_000219 Title A name given to the resource Student registration Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dostie, James M. Description An account of the resource Male students at course registration in Field House. Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Allendale (Mich.) Universities and colleges Students Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC-NC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright - Non-Commercial Use Permitted</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives black and white photo https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/195bb62c5f212c0c615e20eb4a3412f3.jpg 826647893a71454439948cc9b2e9631b Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Valley State University Photographs Subject The topic of the resource Aerial photographs Universities and colleges Michigan Grand Rapids (Mich.) Allendale (Mich.) Building Facilities Dormitories Students Events 1960s 1970s 1980s 1990s 2000s Description An account of the resource People, places, and events of Grand Valley State University from its founding in 1960 as a 4-year college in western Michigan. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource News & Information Services. University Communications Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/41">News &amp; Information Services. University Photographs. (GV012-01)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-03-03 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC-NC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright - Non-Commercial Use Permitted</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource image Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1960s-2000s Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Local Subject Subject headings specific to a particular image collection 1990s Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/41">University photographs, GV012-01</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-01_UAPhotos_000243 Title A name given to the resource Graduating members of Delta Zeta sorority commencement Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dostie, James M. Description An account of the resource Graduating members of Delta Zeta sorority at 1992 commencement. Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Allendale (Mich.) Universities and colleges Students Fraternities and sororities Events Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC-NC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright - Non-Commercial Use Permitted</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1992 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives black and white photo https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f304bf06068c9e44e700bd5c23cf8681.jpg 0801471d6ff7b14e234a1efcf0a24492 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Valley State University Photographs Subject The topic of the resource Aerial photographs Universities and colleges Michigan Grand Rapids (Mich.) Allendale (Mich.) Building Facilities Dormitories Students Events 1960s 1970s 1980s 1990s 2000s Description An account of the resource People, places, and events of Grand Valley State University from its founding in 1960 as a 4-year college in western Michigan. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource News & Information Services. University Communications Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/41">News &amp; Information Services. University Photographs. (GV012-01)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-03-03 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC-NC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright - Non-Commercial Use Permitted</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource image Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1960s-2000s Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Local Subject Subject headings specific to a particular image collection 1990s Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/41">University photographs, GV012-01</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-01_UAPhotos_000244 Title A name given to the resource Students at winter commencement Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dostie, James M. Description An account of the resource Students at winter commencement. Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Allendale (Mich.) Universities and colleges Students Events Graduation ceremonies Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC-NC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright - Non-Commercial Use Permitted</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1994 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives black and white photo https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/49985e5e976db5fa69e06e2d87d2ec7d.jpg cc61434b98de9758f86432ebfdd231a9 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Valley State University Photographs Subject The topic of the resource Aerial photographs Universities and colleges Michigan Grand Rapids (Mich.) Allendale (Mich.) Building Facilities Dormitories Students Events 1960s 1970s 1980s 1990s 2000s Description An account of the resource People, places, and events of Grand Valley State University from its founding in 1960 as a 4-year college in western Michigan. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource News & Information Services. University Communications Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/41">News &amp; Information Services. University Photographs. (GV012-01)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-03-03 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC-NC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright - Non-Commercial Use Permitted</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource image Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1960s-2000s Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Local Subject Subject headings specific to a particular image collection 1990s Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/41">University photographs, GV012-01</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-01_UAPhotos_000251 Title A name given to the resource Freshman orientation Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dostie, James M. Description An account of the resource Incoming freshman at oudoor orientation Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Allendale (Mich.) Universities and colleges Students Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC-NC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright - Non-Commercial Use Permitted</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1990 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives black and white photo https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/abf164ea525d3dd6190cf673bf55152e.jpg 7dde69a05c44a2325394f76e69ffd181 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Valley State University Photographs Subject The topic of the resource Aerial photographs Universities and colleges Michigan Grand Rapids (Mich.) Allendale (Mich.) Building Facilities Dormitories Students Events 1960s 1970s 1980s 1990s 2000s Description An account of the resource People, places, and events of Grand Valley State University from its founding in 1960 as a 4-year college in western Michigan. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource News & Information Services. University Communications Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/41">News &amp; Information Services. University Photographs. (GV012-01)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-03-03 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC-NC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright - Non-Commercial Use Permitted</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource image Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1960s-2000s Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Local Subject Subject headings specific to a particular image collection 1980s Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/41">University photographs, GV012-01</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-01_UAPhotos_000258 Title A name given to the resource Women's basketball team Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dostie, James M. Description An account of the resource Women's basketball team. Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Allendale (Mich.) Universities and colleges Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC-NC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright - Non-Commercial Use Permitted</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1989 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives black and white photo https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f5bb4dc1a519f3d7e7922cac731c5a24.jpg 6a79e4548c244d204dc6facd863f6ba7 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Valley State University Photographs Subject The topic of the resource Aerial photographs Universities and colleges Michigan Grand Rapids (Mich.) Allendale (Mich.) Building Facilities Dormitories Students Events 1960s 1970s 1980s 1990s 2000s Description An account of the resource People, places, and events of Grand Valley State University from its founding in 1960 as a 4-year college in western Michigan. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource News & Information Services. University Communications Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/41">News &amp; Information Services. University Photographs. (GV012-01)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-03-03 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC-NC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright - Non-Commercial Use Permitted</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpg Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource image Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1960s-2000s Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Local Subject Subject headings specific to a particular image collection 1990s Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/41">University photographs, GV012-01</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV012-01_UAPhotos_000263 Title A name given to the resource Orientation tour, led by Theresa O'Connor Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dostie, James M. Description An account of the resource Tour of campus for new students Subject The topic of the resource Grand Valley State University Michigan Allendale (Mich.) Universities and colleges Students Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC-NC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright - Non-Commercial Use Permitted</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1990 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives black and white photo